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The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Que on April 14, 2007, 01:30:11 AM

Title: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 14, 2007, 01:30:11 AM
Bach's music needs a good home on this board - with several rooms... ;D

This thread is a continuation of the Bach and the harpsichord (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,6258.0.html) thread on the old forum.

I think that recordings of non-HIP (= piano) performances and of the organ works are best served with separate threads.

Other relevant old threads:

Let me kick off with just giving a selection of my collection.

My first encounter with Bach on the harpsichord was via recordings by the French harpsichordist (and conductor) Christophe Rousset. He remains one my my favourites.
The Decca set is highly recommended - superb performance of the Partitas and the Goldberg Variations. He is now recording for the French label Ambroisie.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2430074.jpg)   (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/9751347.jpg)


For the Well Tempered Clavier my favourite is Glen Wilson, a harpsichordist I didn't know before.
These recordings are sadly OOP - but just in case (saw a few copies on Amazon):

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Wilson-Glen-K01%5BTeldec%5D.jpg)   (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Wilson-Glen-K02%5BTeldec%5D.jpg)


Other favourite Goldbergs:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/3933763.jpg)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00004V87Z.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)


I got interested in Bach recordings on other period keyboard instruments than the harpsichord.
I've sofar encountered the clavichord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavichord) and the lute-harpsichord (http://www.baroquemusic.org/barluthp.html) (Lautenklavier or Lautenwerck) and find it all wonderfull and fascinating! :D

Recordings I have by Robert Hill, another harpsichordist I like very much.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/9651588.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2193614.jpg)


Robert Hill in my favourite recording of "Die Kunst der Fuge":

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Hill-A02%5BHanssler%5D.jpg)

Q


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: lukeottevanger on April 14, 2007, 01:39:17 AM
might want to change your title somewhat - the clavichord isn't plucked

I'm a big old clavichord fan, obviously (I have one and compose for it too), but sadly it's an instrument that doesn't always come across fantastically on CD for various reasons. Among a few other Bach-on-clavichord discs (Hogwood, Adlam) I have Kirkpatrick's two books of the WTC on clavichord

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000058BGT.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA180_.jpg) and Book One to go with it

and they are admirable but perhaps, like some other clavichord recordings I've heard, lacking in the magical expressivity which is the instrument's trump card. I admire the laudable way Kirkpatrick attempts to insist that the listener resists the urge to pump up the volume, however!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 14, 2007, 01:49:42 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on April 14, 2007, 01:39:17 AM
might want to change your title somewhat - the clavichord isn't plucked

Right! ;D

Thanks Luke, all the technical differences between the instruments are somewhat confusing (for me)... 8)

Quote from: lukeottevanger on April 14, 2007, 01:39:17 AM
I'm a big old clavichord fan, obviously (I have one and compose for it too), but sadly it's an instrument that doesn't always come across fantastically on CD for various reasons. Among a few other Bach-on-clavichord discs (Hogwood, Adlam) I have Kirkpatrick's two books of the WTC on clavichord

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000058BGT.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA180_.jpg) and Book One to go with it

and they are admirable but perhaps, like some other clavichord recordings I've heard, lacking in the magical expressivity which is the instrument's trump card. I admire the laudable way Kirkpatrick attempts to insist that the listener resists the urge to pump up the volume, however!

I never realised that the Kirkpatrick's WTC was on clavichord!
Thanks very much!  :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: lukeottevanger on April 14, 2007, 02:07:25 AM
You know, one of the problems that seems to exist in recording the clavichord - apart from coping with its tiny sound, though possibly related to this fact, perhaps - is the fact that this instrument, which works by striking the strings and has a relatively good sustain, tends nevertheless to sound fairly percussive and plucked when recorded. At least, that is the impression some recordings have made on me, including the Kirkpatrick (I'm just spinning his WTC II to check that impression - yes, indeed, he has a very resonant and strong instrument sounding something like a very mellow harpsichord). That's why it's completely excusable that you imagined it to be a plucked instrument!  ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 14, 2007, 03:08:42 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on April 14, 2007, 02:07:25 AM
You know, one of the problems that seems to exist in recording the clavichord - apart from coping with its tiny sound, though possibly related to this fact, perhaps - is the fact that this instrument, which works by striking the strings and has a relatively good sustain, tends nevertheless to sound fairly percussive and plucked when recorded. At least, that is the impression some recordings have made on me, including the Kirkpatrick (I'm just spinning his WTC II to check that impression - yes, indeed, he has a very resonant and strong instrument sounding something like a very mellow harpsichord). That's why it's completely excusable that you imagined it to be a plucked instrument!  ;D

Yes indeed, it does sound like a mellow harpsichord. :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 14, 2007, 05:32:33 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on April 14, 2007, 02:07:25 AM
You know, one of the problems that seems to exist in recording the clavichord - apart from coping with its tiny sound, though possibly related to this fact, perhaps - is the fact that this instrument, which works by striking the strings and has a relatively good sustain, tends nevertheless to sound fairly percussive and plucked when recorded. At least, that is the impression some recordings have made on me, including the Kirkpatrick (I'm just spinning his WTC II to check that impression - yes, indeed, he has a very resonant and strong instrument sounding something like a very mellow harpsichord). That's why it's completely excusable that you imagined it to be a plucked instrument!  ;D

Among the best clavichord recordings that I have are those by Richard Troegar who has recorded the Inventions and Sinfonias, Partitas, Toccatas, and a transcripton of the Art of the Fugue.  The sound quality is excellent on these recordings and enables the listener to fully appreciate the sound of the clavichord.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/af/51/025c124128a0500c6c819010.L.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/33/7a/1c29923f8da06cee57a69010.L.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000JCG6.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_SS500_.jpg) (http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0009PLM12.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V45264841_SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: lukeottevanger on April 14, 2007, 05:35:07 AM
Thank you for that - I didn't know of these recordings. I've noted them down.... :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 14, 2007, 06:30:16 AM
You are all very welcome! :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 26, 2007, 11:04:09 PM
I recently got this disc the get a taste of Troeger's clavichord recordings on the label Lyrichord.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/af/51/025c124128a0500c6c819010.L.jpg)

This being my first real clavichord CD, I can't tell if the recording brings the sound gives a accurate picture of the sound of the instrument. To my ears the recording could be closer and more "dry" - less spacious acoustics. Now the sounds tends to "sing around a bit", with a diffusing effect.
Would appreciate comments on this by posters more familiar with clavichord recordings! :)
On the performance: I like this fine. Troeger keeps up a good tempo and firm rhythms, but plays with plenty of flexibility - sparkling ornamentations.



Now on another note!  :D
I very much admire harpsichordist Christophe Rousset, and I'm considering this CD.
Does anyone know it? Thanks!

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia//images_produits/ZoomPE/6/7/7/3760020170776.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 27, 2007, 08:05:58 AM
(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia//images_produits/ZoomPE/6/7/7/3760020170776.jpg)

I have that!  It's a great recording that you won't regret buying. :)

Meanwhile, to add to the WTC sweepstakes, I have recently gotten the Ottavio Dantone WTC (I and II) and will continue to listen this weekend.  What I have heard so far is very, very good.  In fact, the most striking thing so far is the wonderful tone of the instrument used for this set. This is something that I feel I will be giving top honors to.

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Dantone-K01%5BArts%5D.jpg)  (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Dantone-K02%5BArts%5D.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 27, 2007, 08:52:32 AM
Has anyone heard Christopher Hogwood's Secret Bach?

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/ee/15/a8b7d250fca09e7ebdef6010.L.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/a3/c2/475aa2c008a006bf7837b010._AA_.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: lukeottevanger on April 27, 2007, 01:23:46 PM
Yes, I have that one. Will need to listen again to remind myself of its various qualities, mind you. Lovely choice of pieces, though.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 28, 2007, 01:34:18 PM
Que or Don -- have either of you heard anything of Peter Watchorn's English Suites (harpsichord)?  I was listening to some samples and they sound quite interesting.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S89D3E0CL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 29, 2007, 12:55:22 AM
Quote from: Bunny on April 28, 2007, 01:34:18 PM
Que or Don -- have either of you heard anything of Peter Watchorn's English Suites (harpsichord)?  I was listening to some samples and they sound quite interesting.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S89D3E0CL._AA240_.jpg)

I think that this is one for Don.  :)

I have Watchorn's recording of the Toccatas on Hänssler, which is really excellent.
But his style is a bit on the dry/academic side. Which is maybe less suited for the English Suites - but I'm just speculating here! :D

On the English Suites: I have Rousset, who is exuberant and adventurous. I recall Don having some reservations on the overtly sonorous/reverberant recording. I agree that the sound is very rich, but it poses no objection for me personally.
Another beautiful recording is by Alan Curtis - combined with equally impressive performances of the French Suites.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/9751347.jpg)   (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5005541.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 29, 2007, 09:08:52 AM
Que, I also have and love the Rousset English Suites (as well as his French Suites, another excellent choice) as well as the Curtis English and French Suites (in the Bach 2000 covers).  They are both excellent, but I have read very mixed things about Watchorn's WTC which I am also considering, so the English Suites seemed like a good way to test the water.  I guess I'll have to wait and see if Don has heard these.

About the sound on the Rousset recordings, although some have likened them to Bach in an airplane hangar, I think of them as Bach in a side chapel of a cathedral. ;D

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/218DEVZHYHL._AA130_.jpg)  (http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/519WC22S7DL._AA240_.jpg)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/515nNq5moOL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Don on April 29, 2007, 09:47:03 AM
Quote from: Bunny on April 29, 2007, 09:08:52 AM
Que, I also have and love the Rousset English Suites (as well as his French Suites, another excellent choice) as well as the Curtis English and French Suites (in the Bach 2000 covers).  They are both excellent, but I have read very mixed things about Watchorn's WTC which I am also considering, so the English Suites seemed like a good way to test the water.  I guess I'll have to wait and see if Don has heard these.

About the sound on the Rousset recordings, although some have likened them to Bach in an airplane hangar, I think of them as Bach in a side chapel of a cathedral. ;D

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/218DEVZHYHL._AA130_.jpg)  (http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/519WC22S7DL._AA240_.jpg)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/515nNq5moOL._AA240_.jpg)

Watchorn's Toccatas are excellent; the English Suites not as fine.  My review of his English Suites was on the Bach Cantatas website, and he treated it like poison, assuming that the only way I could not love his set was if I didn't listen to it more than once or twice. 

His recording of the Sonatas for Violin and Harpsichord is great, although the violinist isn't as fine. 

I'm the one who referred to Rousset's recent Bach recordings as sounding as if they come from an airplane hangar.  I'm sticking to that premise.  Fact is that I like my recordings drier than most other folks.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 29, 2007, 11:59:12 AM
Quote from: Que on April 26, 2007, 11:04:09 PM
I recently got this disc the get a taste of Troeger's clavichord recordings on the label Lyrichord.
This being my first real clavichord CD, I can't tell if the recording brings the sound gives a accurate picture of the sound of the instrument. To my ears the recording could be closer and more "dry" - less spacious acoustics. Now the sounds tends to "sing around a bit", with a diffusing effect.
Would appreciate comments on this by posters more familiar with clavichord recordings! :)
On the performance: I like this fine. Troeger keeps up a good tempo and firm rhythms, but plays with plenty of flexibility - sparkling ornamentations.

Generally I prefer Bachs keyboard music played more detached and with more  pointed rhythmical articulation than Troeger does here. He plays rather much continuous legato (I think this is an important cause of the diffusing effect you mention). But still I like his interpretations because of the transparent part-playing, natural phrasing and engaged expressive style.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 29, 2007, 12:00:37 PM
Quote from: Don on April 29, 2007, 09:47:03 AM
Watchorn's Toccatas are excellent; the English Suites not as fine.  My review of his English Suites was on the Bach Cantatas website, and he treated it like poison, assuming that the only way I could not love his set was if I didn't listen to it more than once or twice. 

His recording of the Sonatas for Violin and Harpsichord is great, although the violinist isn't as fine. 

I'm the one who referred to Rousset's recent Bach recordings as sounding as if they come from an airplane hangar.  I'm sticking to that premise.  Fact is that I like my recordings drier than most other folks.

No offense was meant.  I just find the description a bit funny -- perhaps a quirk in my sense of humor.  I see rows of corporate jets lined up to listen as if in a concert hall, and all of them are smiling (with the occasional one blowing smoke as it "snores."  I only wish I had the cartoonist's talent to sketch such a scene.   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 29, 2007, 12:08:26 PM
Quote from: premont on April 29, 2007, 11:59:12 AM
Generally I prefer Bachs keyboard music played more detached and with more  pointed rhythmical articulation than Troeger does here. He plays rather much continuous legato (I think this is an important cause of the diffusing effect you mention). But still I like his interpretations because of the transparent part-playing, natural phrasing and engaged expressive style.

I thought that the very legato effects were the result of the clavichord having hammers that strike the strings rather than plectra of the harpsichord.  A harpsichord legato is a very different animal from the piano legato, but the clavichord is an instrument that has qualities of both, so I expected different tonal qualities.  Unfortunately, I have perhaps one other clavichord recording of indifferent sound quality, and have never heard a clavichord in concert, so cannot judge whether the legato Troeger obtains is due more to the nature of the instrument of the engineering of the recording.  In any event, I am very happy with his recordings as they are.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 29, 2007, 12:12:23 PM
Quote from: Don on April 29, 2007, 09:47:03 AM
Watchorn's Toccatas are excellent; the English Suites not as fine.  My review of his English Suites was on the Bach Cantatas website, and he treated it like poison..

Well, he is a fine scholar and a brilliant harpsichordist, and even if his interpretation of the English suites is very restrained in expression on the surface, I think his solid style manages to let the music speak for itself in a way, which displays its greatness to the full. Certainly a more German than French style. My preferences are Leonhardt and Curtis, but I am happy, that I own Watchorn too.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 29, 2007, 12:49:44 PM
Quote from: Bunny on April 29, 2007, 12:08:26 PM
I thought that the very legato effects were the result of the clavichord having hammers that strike the strings rather than plectra of the harpsichord.  A harpsichord legato is a very different animal from the piano legato, but the clavichord is an instrument that has qualities of both, so I expected different tonal qualities. 

Even a clavichord has got a damping mechanism, which damps the sound of the string, when the key is released. And as far as we know, the normal touch on keyboard instruments in these days was non legato. So a clavichord player must take the action of his instrument into consideration when playing, in order to produce the effect of non-legato.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 29, 2007, 01:21:53 PM
Quote from: premont on April 29, 2007, 12:49:44 PM
Even a clavichord has got a damping mechanism, which damps the sound of the string, when the key is released. And as far as we know, the normal touch on keyboard instruments in these days was non legato. So a clavichord player must take the action of his instrument into consideration when playing, in order to produce the effect of non-legato.


If the damping action works on a clavichord much as it works on a piano or harpsichord (the damper falls as soon as the key rises back after being depressed), then non legato (and I don't mean staccato) play would have been the easiest to accomplish as it would require no added motion.  The damper would fall as soon as the key rebounds.  To achieve legato play on the piano one keeps one key still depressed for a fraction of a second as the next is played so that the next note is played while the earlier one is still decaying.  That requires more effort than merely depressing the notes in sequence.  I'm not really sure what precisely is meant by the "normal" manner of play in the baroque period.  I think the musician would have used whatever techniques he could to exploit the full tonal range of his instrument, with more skilled players using more effects to greater advantage. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 29, 2007, 02:44:05 PM
The damping mechanism on the clavichord is different form the mechanism on the harpsichord and is a bit more difficult to explain (for me in english). This (from Wikepedia) may be helpful:

"In the clavichord strings run transversely from the hitchpin rail at the left-hand end to tuning pegs on the right. Towards the right end they pass over a curved wooden bridge. The action is simple, with the keys being levers with a small brass tangent at the far end. The strings, which are usually of brass, or else a combination of brass and iron, are usually arranged in pairs, like a lute or mandolin. When the key is pressed, the tangent strikes the strings above, causing them to sound in a similar fashion to the hammering technique on a guitar. Unlike in a piano action, the tangent does not rebound from the string; rather, it stays in contact with the string as long as the key is held, acting as both the nut and as the initiator of sound. The volume of the note can be changed by striking harder or softer, and the pitch can also be affected by varying the force of the tangent against the string (known as bebung). When the key is released, the tangent loses contact with the string and the vibration of the string is silenced by strips of damping cloth."

Non-legato even had a name (in German: Ordentliche Fortgehen), and was used when nothing else was specified, in the same way as the legato touch became the normal touch for piano playing in the course of the 19th century. In the baroque age the legato touch was most often used to bind small groups of notes together to stress the rhythm or as means of expression, but long periods of continuous legato playing was not used. The same is true of baroque organ touch. This is what much of the HIP movement is about.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: lukeottevanger on May 01, 2007, 05:26:03 AM
Quote from: premont on April 29, 2007, 12:49:44 PM
Even a clavichord has got a damping mechanism, which damps the sound of the string, when the key is released. And as far as we know, the normal touch on keyboard instruments in these days was non legato. So a clavichord player must take the action of his instrument into consideration when playing, in order to produce the effect of non-legato.


The clavichord doesn't have a damping mechanism, nor does it have hammers - trust me, I've got one [a clavichord, that is, not a damping mechanism - you can hear my instrument playing my own compositions via links on my composer's thread, if you're brave enough ;D]. The easiest way to see its workings is by diagram-  let me try one - the dotted line represents the length of the string:

Pin--Cloth--------------------------------------------------------------Bridge-----Cloth----Tuning Pin


As you can see, only one end of the sounding length of the string is pre-defined (by the bridge); the other end is in its unplayed state muffled by the strip of light lint-like cloth through which all the strings pass. Therefore, the string, if plucked, produces only a relatively pitchless tone. The tangent (not hammer) which strikes the string near the left hand end therefore performs a dual function - to vibrate the string, thus creating the sound, but also to become one end of the string's sounding length. The fact that the point of impact is therefore right at the end of the string explains why a clavichord can only ever be a quiet instrument.

It should be noted also that the tangent is directly fixed to the end of the key and so, much more than a piano or harpsichord, where there is a mechanism in between, acts as a direct extension of the finger - if the finger shakes up and down, then so does the tangent, imparting vibrato (bebung) or even (though it's difficult to do) meaning one can bend the pitch of one not into an adjacent one, portamento-style. More importantly - the previous being only special effects and rarely used - the string will in theory continue to sound as long as the finger presses the key. In practice, however, the rate of decay is very fast and the sustain is therefore brief, which is why the clavichord can sometimes, especially in faster pieces, sound almost plucked.

No damping is required to prevent sympathetic vibration because, being only partially defined when unplayed, the strings will not vibrate. And no damping is required to stop the sound after the finger is released because as soon as the tangent leaves the string, the string reverts to its undefined state and stops ringing.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on May 01, 2007, 07:21:20 AM
Now that is a fine and lucid explanation!  Thanks, lukeottevanger
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: lukeottevanger on May 02, 2007, 01:39:33 AM
Thank you, it was a pleasure. I suppose I should clarify that when Premont said the clavichord had a damping mechanism he was talking about the strip of cloth, and indeed, as I said it is that strip which causes the string to stop vibrating when the finger releases the key. My only quibble was that 1) it isn't a mechanism as such - the only mechanism on the instrument is the key+tangent itself; and 2) it is part of the string in its 'natural state', not an active agency which applies damping (as on the piano). But his description was accurate too, and it's really just playing with definitions to argue about what is a mechanism and what isn't!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on May 02, 2007, 06:25:31 AM
Yes, but I was trying to find dampers that rise and fall as on the piano or harpsichord and they don't exist on the clavichord.  Now the next thing I need to understand is the nature of the "tangent" which strikes the strings.  It's sometimes described as a metal hammer, but I'm not sure that is correct either. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: lukeottevanger on May 02, 2007, 06:29:03 AM
No, it's simply a small metal rod which is inserted perpendicularly in the end of the shaft of the key. The protruding end, tapered to a blunt point, is what strikes the string.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: lukeottevanger on May 02, 2007, 06:34:11 AM
Here's a picture of my rather rough-looking clavichord. You can see the tangents sticking out of the ends of the keys; also the off-white strips of cloth at each end of the strings.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on May 02, 2007, 06:52:45 AM
Thanks for the picture.  Are you at all familiar with the instruments where the musician uses hammers held in the hands to strike the strings (such as the hammer dulcimer)?  They are generally descended from the zither.  I know that such instruments lack the sophistication of the clavichord, but I think perhaps the sound of such instruments will be very similar to that made by the clavichord.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: springrite on May 07, 2007, 09:51:46 AM
Although I prefer my Bach on the piano, I do enjoy the occasional harpsichord recording and own quite a few that I like (have all the major works on harpsichord recordings). But I have to admit that, other than knowing that I dislike Landoska's super harpsichord sound, I am not good at distinguishing much differences between the playing and interpretation of different performers like I do the piano.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on August 07, 2007, 10:16:13 PM
This recording of the Goldbergs is really superb and is a valuable addition to the ones I already have: Rousset (Decca), Frisch (Aplha), Ross (Warner/Erato).

Not to make your the lives of the non-European members miserable or anything: but this is an issue by the branch of Universal/Decca in Italy, where our Don picked it up. Available in Italy and at the French and German Amazons.

My first impressions, but I feel there is more to discover.
Having heard Dantone's recent WTC (Arts), this is quite different - not wild but a rather sober and contemplative approach with moderate tempi. This is emphasized by the choice of instrument: a copy of a harpsichord by Christian Zell made in Hamburg 1728, with a clear and very direct sound. Not nearly as rich as the instrument Rousset uses (a Parisian Hemsch from 1751). Dantone is sober, but also elegant and spicy in his firmly structured and crisp playing, prominent desynchronisation in the opening aria.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JQSZ5A7WL.jpg)
AUDIO CLIPS (low quality  :-\) (http://www.amazon.fr/Variations-Goldberg-bwv988-Jean-S%C3%A9bastien-Bach/dp/B000FG5PJU)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Don on August 08, 2007, 11:58:41 AM
Que:

What did you think of Dantone's repeats?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on August 09, 2007, 08:17:32 AM
Quote from: Don on August 08, 2007, 11:58:41 AM
Que:

What did you think of Dantone's repeats?

Do you have the embellishments in mind?
No problem with that - makes it spicey and interesting. :)
He has a rather "free" style anyway.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on September 03, 2007, 12:06:07 AM
I am considering to purchase this recording that was made by Radio Canada.
Any comments & advice?

(http://www.integralmusic.fr/upload/produit/photog_4442.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: stingo on September 03, 2007, 07:49:44 AM
Pierre Hantai is a favorite of mine. His Opus 111 recording of the Goldbergs remains a favorite of mine (especially so since it was that disc that first presented the work to me). His Mirare recording is of similar quality.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/4152R7A4D1L._AA240_.jpg)(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51B67Y1TDGL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on September 04, 2007, 09:56:26 PM
Quote from: stingo on September 03, 2007, 07:49:44 AM
Pierre Hantai is a favorite of mine. His Opus 111 recording of the Goldbergs remains a favorite of mine (especially so since it was that disc that first presented the work to me). His Mirare recording is of similar quality.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/4152R7A4D1L._AA240_.jpg)(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51B67Y1TDGL._AA240_.jpg)

Both recordings are regarded highly, and I can understand why.
But in the past they didn't agree with me because of Hantaï rather idiosyncratic, willful style. Perhaps I should return to them - Dantone's recording (few pasts above) is also in a rather "free" style. :)

BTW do you know Hantaï's WTC Book I (also on Mirare) and what do you think of it?

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Tancata on September 05, 2007, 03:15:57 AM
Quote from: Que on September 04, 2007, 09:56:26 PM
BTW do you know Hantaï's WTC Book I (also on Mirare) and what do you think of it?

I have this and I like it a lot. But, it's in that same "wilfull" style you don't seem to like, so be careful...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: stingo on September 05, 2007, 08:12:49 AM
Quote from: Que on September 04, 2007, 09:56:26 PM
Both recordings are regarded highly, and I can understand why.
But in the past they didn't agree with me because of Hantaï rather idiosyncratic, willful style. Perhaps I should return to them - Dantone's recording (few pasts above) is also in a rather "free" style. :)

BTW do you know Hantaï's WTC Book I (also on Mirare) and what do you think of it?

Q

I have it but haven't listened to it enough to form an opinion. Perhaps I'll rectify that soon.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Don on September 05, 2007, 09:26:31 AM
Quote from: Que on September 04, 2007, 09:56:26 PM
Both recordings are regarded highly, and I can understand why.
But in the past they didn't agree with me because of Hantaï rather idiosyncratic, willful style. Perhaps I should return to them - Dantone's recording (few pasts above) is also in a rather "free" style. :)

BTW do you know Hantaï's WTC Book I (also on Mirare) and what do you think of it?

Q

I find Hantai's first recording of the Goldbergs very exuberant and youthful; the more recent one on Mirare is quite different - exhibits greater maturity and poignancy.  Both are among my favorites.

I also have Hantai's WTC Bk. 1 and don't care for it as much as his two Goldbergs.  Specifically, I don't like the "wet" sonics that can submerge the upper voices.  I should point out that I haven't listened to this set at all in the past couple of years; maybe I'd change my opinion if I heard it again.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: JoshLilly on September 05, 2007, 10:04:13 AM
The... lutichord?  Prior to the 19th century it was common to not specify keyboard works at all unless it were for the organ or something else unusual, so how many of J.S. Bach's generic keyboard works could be played on this instrument? It would seem he specifically intended S996, S997 and S998 for a Lautenwerck and was personally involved in its design. The Wikipedia entry on the Lautenwerck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lute-harpsichord) says:

"The instrument was favored by J. S. Bach, who owned two of the instruments at the time of his death, but no specimens have survived to the present day. It was revived in the 20th century and two of its most prominent performers are the early music specialists Gergely Sárközy and Robert Hill."

What a sound!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on November 03, 2007, 02:46:35 AM
Just got this.
And to introduce another period keyboard instrument on this thread: it's played on a pedal harpsichord (http://www.harpsichord.org.uk/pedal/pedalharpsichord.htm).
The pedal harpsichord used here consists actually of two harpsichords - one mounted on the other, the lower one played with pedals to create the bass line. Further details at the link. To quote JoshLilly: what a sound!  :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3760014190278.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/6962447?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist) (http://www.harpsichord.org.uk/pedal/clavecin-Macheret.jpg)
click picture for clips

Yves Rechsteiner plays the Chromatic Fantasia, two of the Trio Sonatas and various transcriptions of Bach's music for violin solo. The instrument sounds impressive and is superbly recorded. When played at reasonable volume the effect can be as overwhelming as the sound of an organ and in fact does bear some similarities.

The playing is excellent, Rechsteiner is a very fine harpsichordist indeed. Would like to hear more of him.
He is the hands-on-and-not-to-linger type of player. Swift and clearly articulated, poetic if needed.
From the works played, I like the "added" effect of the pedal harpsichord best in the Trio Sonatas and the transcriptions. In the Chromatic Fantasia it does seem a touch overbearing sometimes.

This is a marvelous disc and recommended for anyone who is experienced in Bach harpsichord recordings and would like some alternative flavour.  :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on January 23, 2008, 12:14:50 AM
Though mentioned once before, a short note of my impressions on these marvelous recordings of Bach WTC.
These were on my list a long time, but were no priority because I already had splendid WTC by Glen Wilson (Teldec - OOP). But I'm glad I eventually did pick them up.
Dantone is a player with an elegant and extrovert, at times even dashing, style: this WTC sparkles freely on a crisp and clear but lush sounding French harpsichord by Blanchet (1733). Dantone is generally swift(ish) and always keeps momentum - even in the slow passages there is a strong "pulse" and projection of the musical lines. Very strong bass lines. His freedom and extrovertness is combined with a firm grip on musical structure and a rock-solid rhythmic approach. And this combination makes it so special IMO. A strong and personal style that suits me. The recording is called "audiophile", and it lives up to this title.

I happily put this WTC next to Glen Wilson's more reflective approach.

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/07/489807.jpg)  (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/49/493449.jpg)

             SAMPLES BOOK I (http://www.artsmusic.de/templates/tyReleasesD.php?id=315&label=blue%20line&topic=arts-releases-detail)                                      SAMPLES BOOK II (http://www.artsmusic.de/templates/tyReleasesD.php?id=316&label=blue%20line&topic=arts-releases-detail)

Q

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on January 23, 2008, 12:34:08 AM
Quote from: Que on November 03, 2007, 02:46:35 AM
Just got this.

E. Power Biggs actually recorded some Bach (6 Trio Sonatas for example) on a Challis pedal harpsichord, but that album has been out of print.  Maybe it's the way the instruments were made and recorded differently, but Rechsteiner's instrument puts out a much more discreet bass compared to the "Biggs" one.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 14, 2008, 08:39:41 AM
Has anyone heard this?  :)

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/15/1003215.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 14, 2008, 08:52:24 AM
Quote from: Que on November 03, 2007, 02:46:35 AM


The playing is excellent, Rechsteiner is a very fine harpsichordist indeed. Would like to hear more of him.
He is the hands-on-and-not-to-linger type of player. Swift and clearly articulated, poetic if needed.


Rechsteiner's mainly an organist really as his other recording on the Alpha label shows -
Liszt (with a heavy Bach thematic link) on a beautiful 19th century organ.  I have not
since heard him elsewhere on disc.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 14, 2008, 09:09:48 AM
Quote from: Que on April 14, 2008, 08:39:41 AM
Has anyone heard this?  :)
<Egarr's WTC1>
Q

Somehow after Egarr's s-l-o-w Goldberg, I feel reluctant to explore his views on WTC, at full price to boot.  His Handel Op. 4 seems to be much better received here in UK.

EDIT.  Found a lower price and ventured a buy.  Will report back if it turns out to be more appealing than his oh-so-beautiful Goldberg.
But I imagine that, to these ears, Hantai's blazing recording on Mirare will be hard to beat.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 14, 2008, 09:17:40 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 14, 2008, 09:09:48 AM
EDIT.  Found a lower price and ventured a buy.  Will report back if it turns out to be more appealing than his oh-so-beautiful Goldberg.

Yes, please do.  :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 14, 2008, 09:26:23 AM
Quote from: Que on April 14, 2008, 09:17:40 AM
Yes, please do.  :)

Q

On strength of the slogan in my signature, I figured that I have not sinned.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 14, 2008, 09:42:56 AM
Quote from: Que on April 14, 2008, 08:39:41 AM
Has anyone heard this?  :)

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/15/1003215.jpg)

Q

It is in my CDs to be listened to pile.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 14, 2008, 09:45:24 AM
Quote from: premont on April 14, 2008, 09:42:56 AM
It is in my CDs to be listened to pile.

Perhaps you will file a report first?  :) 

(Please don't tell me it's better than Hantai's blazing, virtuosic effort on Mirare.
Where is Pierre's Book II?  I have been waiting.  :-\ )
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 14, 2008, 10:08:01 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 14, 2008, 09:45:24 AM
Perhaps you will file a report first?  :) 

(Please don't tell me it's better than Hantai's blazing, virtuosic effort on Mirare.
Where is Pierre's Book II?  I have been waiting.  :-\ )

Well, I shall try to get the time give it a listen in the week-end.
Now I am perhaps shocking you: I do not know the Hantaï version.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 14, 2008, 10:13:36 AM
Quote from: premont on April 14, 2008, 10:08:01 AM
Well, I shall try to get the time give it a listen in the week-end.
Now I am perhaps shocking you: I do not know the Hantaï version.

I tried Hantaï. but didn't like him that much. Like Ottavio Dantone very much on the other hand. (See few post back).

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 14, 2008, 11:08:37 AM
Quote from: Que on April 14, 2008, 10:13:36 AM
I tried Hantaï. but didn't like him that much. Like Ottavio Dantone very much on the other hand. (See few post back).

Q

I find Dantone's reading to be dutiful (everything's done right, but one can imagine more in this music) but not very exciting....while Hantai takes lot of flights (and risks) with his fancy.   :D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Don on April 14, 2008, 01:29:00 PM
Quote from: Que on April 14, 2008, 10:13:36 AM
I tried Hantaï. but didn't like him that much. Like Ottavio Dantone very much on the other hand. (See few post back).

Q

That's pretty much how I see it as well.

As for Egarr's WTC, it has similar virtues and problems found in his Goldbergs - a high priority on beauty but no interest in getting his hands dirty or digging deep into the bleak pieces.  To me, it lacks "spine".
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 15, 2008, 01:51:13 AM
Quote from: Don on April 14, 2008, 01:29:00 PM
As for Egarr's WTC, it has similar virtues and problems found in his Goldbergs - a high priority on beauty but no interest in getting his hands dirty or digging deep into the bleak pieces.  To me, it lacks "spine".

If it's just about "spine" I guess it's all right then.  "Spine" in a long, continuous work such as the Goldberg is a lot more important than it is in a collection of shorter, sundry pieces.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 16, 2008, 12:36:20 PM
Quote from: Que on April 14, 2008, 08:39:41 AM
Has anyone heard this?  :)

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/15/1003215.jpg)

Q

Yes I have – now.

Egarr uses a modern copy of a ( Johannes?) Rückers harpsichord from 1638, an instrument I would expect to sound more crisp and even a bit harsh, but the sound of Egarr´s instrument is so sweet as to defy its origin. It may be the recording though, but it does not suit the music IMO . Egarr´s tempi are generally slow, often too slow to my taste, and he plays too much legato. He seems to confuse articulation and phrasing, playing long phrases in strict legato, and in the end the music presents itself badly under-articulated. His agogics are very free with much dragging, and essentially romantic. In the long run he seems mannered. All the pieces – most true of the fugues – get the same basic treatment without much individual characterisation. It is a dreadful exercise in futility, which at best may be good for sleeplessness.   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Don on April 16, 2008, 12:48:48 PM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 15, 2008, 01:51:13 AM
If it's just about "spine" I guess it's all right then.  "Spine" in a long, continuous work such as the Goldberg is a lot more important than it is in a collection of shorter, sundry pieces.

I respectfully disagree.  A lack of spine, back-bone or whatever one might call it is negative for both the Goldbergs and WTC.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Don on April 16, 2008, 12:51:47 PM
Quote from: premont on April 16, 2008, 12:36:20 PM
Yes I have – now.

Egarr uses a modern copy of a ( Johannes?) Rückers harpsichord from 1638, an instrument I would expect to sound more crisp and even a bit harsh, but the sound of Egarr´s instrument is so sweet as to defy its origin. It may be the recording though, but it does not suit the music IMO . Egarr´s tempi are generally slow, often too slow to my taste, and he plays too much legato. He seems to confuse articulation and phrasing, playing long phrases in strict legato, and in the end the music presents itself badly under-articulated. His agogics are very free with much dragging, and essentially romantic. In the long run he seems mannered. All the pieces – most true of the fugues – get the same basic treatment without much individual characterisation. It is a dreadful exercise in futility, which at best may be good for sleeplessness.   


And I thought that my view of the Egarr was rather negative.  According to Egarr, the "sweet" sound has something to do with using the new Lehman tuning system.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 16, 2008, 12:59:17 PM
Quote from: premont on April 16, 2008, 12:36:20 PM
Yes I have – now.

Egarr uses a modern copy of a ( Johannes?) Rückers harpsichord from 1638, an instrument I would expect to sound more crisp and even a bit harsh, but the sound of Egarr´s instrument is so sweet as to defy its origin. It may be the recording though, but it does not suit the music IMO . Egarr´s tempi are generally slow, often too slow to my taste, and he plays too much legato. He seems to confuse articulation and phrasing, playing long phrases in strict legato, and in the end the music presents itself badly under-articulated. His agogics are very free with much dragging, and essentially romantic. In the long run he seems mannered. All the pieces – most true of the fugues – get the same basic treatment without much individual characterisation. It is a dreadful exercise in futility, which at best may be good for sleeplessness.   

Thanks, Premont! :)
fl.traverso wasn't very hot on it either - at least that is what I gathered from his somewhat indirect comments.  8) (What is "cm"?)

Quote from: fl.traverso on April 16, 2008, 03:05:11 AM
Now that I have learned what people like here in UK by making friends with a couple of local fans of cm, I think Egarr here has a winner as far as THEIR taste is concerned.  Oh my this is so moderate, so deliberate, not to mention so discreet. "Sublime," in other words.  ;)  I couldn't share the Hantai WTC with my British friends for fear that they might disapprove of its wild ideas.  Now I know I have a safe choice when it is time to hear Bach together.  ;)

Q


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 16, 2008, 01:03:04 PM
Quote from: Que on April 16, 2008, 12:59:17 PM
(What is "cm"?)

Q

Classical Music, I suppose.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bassio on April 16, 2008, 02:30:21 PM
Quote from: premont on April 16, 2008, 01:03:04 PM
Classical Music, I suppose.

No premont, that will be CM.

cm will probably mean c minor if I am not mistaken.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 16, 2008, 02:52:50 PM
Quote from: bassio on April 16, 2008, 02:30:21 PM
No premont, that will be CM.

cm will probably mean c minor if I am not mistaken.

I can see minor problems here, but I assume fl.traverso made a capital error.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 16, 2008, 08:00:39 PM
Quote from: premont on April 16, 2008, 12:36:20 PM
Yes I have – now.

Egarr uses a modern copy of a ( Johannes?) Rückers harpsichord from 1638, an instrument I would expect to sound more crisp and even a bit harsh, but the sound of Egarr´s instrument is so sweet as to defy its origin. It may be the recording though, but it does not suit the music IMO . Egarr´s tempi are generally slow, often too slow to my taste, and he plays too much legato. He seems to confuse articulation and phrasing, playing long phrases in strict legato, and in the end the music presents itself badly under-articulated. His agogics are very free with much dragging, and essentially romantic. In the long run he seems mannered. All the pieces – most true of the fugues – get the same basic treatment without much individual characterisation. It is a dreadful exercise in futility, which at best may be good for sleeplessness.   


Thank you for the review!  I have his Goldbergs which I also found disappointing -- too slow and bland. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: val on April 16, 2008, 11:19:34 PM
Regarding the harpsichord works, my selection is:

WTC, 1 and 2 / Gustave Leonhardt  (but Gulda, piano, goes more deeply in the poetry and meditation of this work)

Concerto Italiano, Chromatic Fantasy, Fantasy and Fugue BWV 904 / Andreas Staier

6 Partitas and 6 English Suites / Leonhardt

6 French Suites / Ton Koopman

Goldberg Variations / Pierre Hantai

Regarding the Toccatas and the Inventions, I have always prefered the piano version of Glenn Gould

Organ Works:
The complete set by Marie-Claire Alain remains my favorite.

But for the Leipzig Chorals, I would chose Pierre Bardon, for the delicious Orgelbüchlein Andre Isoir, and for the Toccatas the more spectacular Ton Koopman.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 18, 2008, 04:23:06 AM
Quote from: premont on April 16, 2008, 02:52:50 PM
I can see minor problems here, but I assume fl.traverso made a capital error.


What minor problems do you mean?  I think cm=classical music fans should be so much more
self-evident than c minor fans, no?  I have by now listened to Egarr's WTC a few times more
and all I can say is that it does improve with repeated exposures.  Controversial yes, and I
bet Egarr himself knew it (he would have listened to a lot of other people perform) and still
HM was supportive of his projects.  Reason?  It works within certain contexts and sadly most
GMG'ers do not and will not belong in these.  Too different to provide a ready access I suppose.

As for the question of "spine" in this (and other) music by Bach, I would simply say I will agree
to disagree with Don, given the fact that neither Bach nor other contemporary sources actually
address this - i.e. "spine" as applied to music as if it were a living organism, which is clearly a modern
way of expressing a certain preference in playing styles, and therefore for me has no universal or
objective significance. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 18, 2008, 04:28:10 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 18, 2008, 04:23:06 AM
Controversial yes, and I bet Egarr himself knew it (he would have listened to a lot of other people perform) and still HM was supportive of his projects.  Reason?  It works within certain contexts and sadly most GMG'ers do and will not belong in these.  Too different to provide a ready access I suppose.

FL, for me you talking riddles here. What do mean?
What would be an obstacle (for most here) to appreciate Egarr's take on the WTC? :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 18, 2008, 04:36:35 AM
Quote from: Que on April 18, 2008, 04:28:10 AM
What would be an obstacle (for most here) to appreciate Egarr's take on the WTC? :)

That he adopts a playing style and an interpretative viewpoint that most do not comprehend nor appreciate? 
Something that definitely lacks a spine because the performer doesn't think spine is required in this music?

ps. I am guessing that the particular tuning system advocated by Bradley Lehmann may have been responsible for what ppl here hear as "soft" or "bland" to a larger extent than they realise.  But it would be difficult to prove exactly how much unless Egarr would play it again using other more frequently used tunings.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 18, 2008, 05:04:04 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 18, 2008, 04:23:06 AM
What minor problems do you mean?  I think cm=classical music fans should be so much more
self-evident than c minor fans, no? 

Do not understand me so literally, I am just playing with words.

Quote from: fl.traverso on April 18, 2008, 04:23:06 AM
I have by now listened to Egarr's WTC a few times more and all I can say is that it does improve with repeated exposures.  Controversial yes, and I bet Egarr himself knew it (he would have listened to a lot of other people perform) and still HM was supportive of his projects.  Reason?  It works within certain contexts and sadly most GMG'ers do not and will not belong in these.  Too different to provide a ready access I suppose.

Which contexts?? I have listened to it twice, and I still find, that the different pieces are poorly characterized, and that everything is played in uniform soft legato manner, and why should this be controversial? It is just that Egarr has not got much to say about the music. The phrases must speak more, must be shaped more rhethorical, and the articulation must be more pointed. I am sure Bach would have found Egarr very dull and boring.

Quote from: fl.traverso on April 18, 2008, 04:23:06 AM
As for the question of "spine" in this (and other) music by Bach, I would simply say I will agree
to disagree with Don, given the fact that neither Bach nor other contemporary sources actually
address this - i.e. "spine" as applied to music as if it were a living organism, which is clearly a modern
way of expressing a certain preference in playing styles, and therefore for me has no universal or
objective significance. 

Spine or balls if you want. Egarr puts the lid on the virility and the drama in the music.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 18, 2008, 05:08:55 AM
Quote from: premont on April 18, 2008, 05:04:04 AM
The phrases must speak more, must be shaped more rhethorical, and the articulation must be more pointed. I am sure Bach would have found Egarr very dull and boring.

Perhaps you have answered your own question?  That you demand music to sound exciting and pointed, as much so as to your taste?  I am not sure that Bach would certainly have agreed with your taste.  Or perhaps you could prove how? 

Quote

Spine or balls if you want. Egarr puts the lid on the virility and the drama in the music.


And we have many other versions that provide plenty of these if you must have them.  I think I am beginning to hear positive things in Egarr's WTC.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 18, 2008, 07:54:44 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 18, 2008, 04:36:35 AM
That he adopts a playing style and an interpretative viewpoint that most do not comprehend nor appreciate? 
Something that definitely lacks a spine because the performer doesn't think spine is required in this music?

ps. I am guessing that the particular tuning system advocated by Bradley Lehmann may have been responsible for what ppl here hear as "soft" or "bland" to a larger extent than they realise.  But it would be difficult to prove exactly how much unless Egarr would play it again using other more frequently used tunings.

The blandness that I referred to was not merely in the harmonic sound of his Goldbergs, but also in the very lethargic and almost plodding rhythms.   For my taste, I want Goldbergs that dance as well as sing.  Egarr's Goldbergs for some reason, sound bland and very flat-footed to me.  For my taste, if such a harmonious tuning system is going to be used, then the variations need more rhythmic drive so that one sees more than Bach's "pretty face."  If Egarr's new WTC is in that same style, then I will pass. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: BorisG on April 18, 2008, 10:01:23 AM
Quote from: Bunny on April 18, 2008, 07:54:44 AM
The blandness that I referred to was not merely in the harmonic sound of his Goldbergs, but also in the very lethargic and almost plodding rhythms.   For my taste, I want Goldbergs that dance as well as sing.  Egarr's Goldbergs for some reason, sound bland and very flat-footed to me.  For my taste, if such a harmonious tuning system is going to be used, then the variations need more rhythmic drive so that one sees more than Bach's "pretty face."  If Egarr's new WTC is in that same style, then I will pass. 

It is very bland. To be kind and gentle, I won't say dull or boring. It is poor example of what even a relic like the harpsichord can do, with the right hands and brain.

What would JS prefer? More projection? A lively delivery? I think he would have preferred the organ (vs harpsichord) for both power and note sustainability.

Sadly, we do not have much that is quotable from the great man. As one scholar said, "only a few chestnuts from his sons." And none of these are specific about instrumentation.

I suspect in those days that composers/musicians just got on with it, with whatever was immediately available. Later, as reporting and options improved, the instrumentation and orchestral preferences and wishful thinkings of many composers/musicians became known.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 19, 2008, 12:41:56 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 18, 2008, 05:08:55 AM
I think I am beginning to hear positive things in Egarr's WTC.

Would you mind to elaborate a little?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 19, 2008, 03:47:25 AM
Quote from: premont on April 19, 2008, 12:41:56 AM
Would you mind to elaborate a little?

I think the low pitch, broad phrasing, relaxed tempi and Lehman tuning that Egarr uses in this recording (and his Goldberg) appear to shift my attention from the discursive or rhetorical aspect of the music to
its textural feel as a polyphonic network or fabric, where all voices can be heard un-perturbed with almost the same degree of clarity.  Yes the result will no doubt sound boring to those who listen for a musical message, but it will also spare those who only want to perceive the music through listening the onerous task of decoding various interpretative gestures or designs that the performer has brought upon this music.  When the (imagined) actions are thankfully purged from the scene, the music can then emerge as some kind of an aural landscape which the listener can either behold passively or do so actively to make new connections (eg. c minor prelude as an aria ritornello that shows vexation and hesitation instead as a stormy overdrive) of his own.  Maybe this can be called a non-interventionist approach to Bach - which surely can't be everybody's cup of tea.  
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 19, 2008, 09:43:22 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 19, 2008, 03:47:25 AM
I think the low pitch, broad phrasing, relaxed tempi and Lehman tuning that Egarr uses in this recording (and his Goldberg) appear to shift my attention from the discursive or rhetorical aspect of the music to
its textural feel as a polyphonic network or fabric, where all voices can be heard un-perturbed with almost the same degree of clarity.  Yes the result will no doubt sound boring to those who listen for a musical message, but it will also spare those who only want to perceive the music through listening the onerous task of decoding various interpretative gestures or designs that the performer has brought upon this music.  When the (imagined) actions are thankfully purged from the scene, the music can then emerge as some kind of an aural landscape which the listener can either behold passively or do so actively to make new connections (eg. c minor prelude as an aria ritornello that shows vexation and hesitation instead as a stormy overdrive) of his own.  Maybe this can be called a non-interventionist approach to Bach - which surely can't be everybody's cup of tea.  

Thanks, FL, now I understand, what you mean, but I am a bit shocked to read this from you. As far as I can see, you (and Egarr) advocate principles of interpretation from the "preauthentic" age (ca.1930-1975). In these days Bach´s harpsichord music was often played with the least possible musical gestures and articulation, because many musicians thought that lack of indication of the articulation in the harpsichord scores meant, that the music was to be played with a uniform touch throughout (a misguided back-to-the-score movement). Many thought that "chronic legato touch" was to be preferred. This is true of Isolde Ahlgrimm, Martin Galling and the very young Gustav Leonhardt among others. Incidentally they also preferred broad tempi. Very much like Egarr. But have a look at Bach´s scores of his chamber music (e.g. violin-harpsichord sonatas, dedicational score of the Brandenburgs), and you will find a wealth of carefully applied articulation marks, and it is certainly impossible to think, that Bach wanted his chamber music to be played very articulated but his harpsichord music to be played unarticulated – or under-articulated, if you want. So of course the harpsichord music was meant to be articulated in the same way. Now it is self-deception to think, that it is possible to play as much as a single note without interpreting it at the same time, so Egarr´s view represents of course just as much an interpretation as e.g. Hantaï´s, just a different and less HIP-related interpretation. This is more appropriate to say, than calling his approach non-interventional. By the way if you really want to get to know the essence of the music in a true non-interventional approach, the only way to do so is by skipping any dependence of interpretations and study the scores in scientifically reliable editions. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 21, 2008, 02:29:35 AM
Quote from: premont on April 19, 2008, 09:43:22 AM
Thanks, FL, now I understand, what you mean, but I am a bit shocked to read this from you. As far as I can see, you (and Egarr) advocate principles of interpretation from the "preauthentic" age (ca.1930-1975). In these days Bach´s harpsichord music was often played with the least possible musical gestures and articulation, because many musicians thought that lack of indication of the articulation in the harpsichord scores meant, that the music was to be played with a uniform touch throughout (a misguided back-to-the-score movement).  (snip)

Yes, it is essentially impossible to play any music without an interpretation of some sort.  However I will argue that not all HIPs will sound alike -- given the fact that Egarr is no new hand in this business, I, unlike you, will refrain from speculating on how "pre-HIP" his performance appears to be.   In some fugues his approach is actually similar to that of Davitt Moroney, whose work I also enjoy among HIP versions.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 21, 2008, 02:53:33 AM
Bach, indisputably HIP  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41T2AQYYZXL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 21, 2008, 03:13:37 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 21, 2008, 02:53:33 AM
Bach, indisputably HIP  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41T2AQYYZXL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I have that and it's a very nice recording, but rather to my own surprise I clearly preferred Robert Hill in these works (mostly) after Johann Adam Reincken's Hortus musicus

(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092110000.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 21, 2008, 04:06:13 AM
Quote from: Que on April 21, 2008, 03:13:37 AM
I have that and it's a very nice recording, but rather to my own surprise I clearly preferred Robert Hill in these works (mostly) after Johann Adam Reincken's Hortus musicus

Well I might prefer Staier  ;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 21, 2008, 07:56:45 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 19, 2008, 03:47:25 AM
I think the low pitch, broad phrasing, relaxed tempi and Lehman tuning that Egarr uses in this recording (and his Goldberg) appear to shift my attention from the discursive or rhetorical aspect of the music to
its textural feel as a polyphonic network or fabric, where all voices can be heard un-perturbed with almost the same degree of clarity.  Yes the result will no doubt sound boring to those who listen for a musical message, but it will also spare those who only want to perceive the music through listening the onerous task of decoding various interpretative gestures or designs that the performer has brought upon this music.  When the (imagined) actions are thankfully purged from the scene, the music can then emerge as some kind of an aural landscape which the listener can either behold passively or do so actively to make new connections (eg. c minor prelude as an aria ritornello that shows vexation and hesitation instead as a stormy overdrive) of his own.  Maybe this can be called a non-interventionist approach to Bach - which surely can't be everybody's cup of tea. 

That's pretty much what I found attractive in the Emerson String Quartet's recording of the Art of the Fugue. 

How does this WTC compare to Landowska's for instance, which is also on the slower side?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 21, 2008, 08:11:51 AM
Quote from: Bunny on April 21, 2008, 07:56:45 AM
How does this WTC compare to Landowska's for instance, which is also on the slower side?

But Egarr's instrument, tuning etc. sounds nothing like Landowska's.  And his choice of tempi
clearly shows he doesn't think HIP=fast. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 21, 2008, 10:38:14 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 21, 2008, 08:11:51 AM
But Egarr's instrument, tuning etc. sounds nothing like Landowska's.  And his choice of tempi
clearly shows he doesn't think HIP=fast. 


I know that no one's tuning or instrument sounds like Landowska's!  I was hoping you could tell me only how his tempi compare to hers.  I don't think I would enjoy anything slower than Landowska.  Also, I'm not sure that the overly stately tempos are HIP.  I suspect that Bach played a good deal faster than Egarr in the Goldbergs as well.  I hate it when the pieces are played slowly as they begin to sound like pedagogic exercises, and remind me of my own efforts on the piano as a 14 year old.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: lukeottevanger on April 21, 2008, 10:44:27 AM
Quote from: BorisG on April 18, 2008, 10:01:23 AM
It is very bland. To be kind and gentle, I won't say dull or boring. It is poor example of what even a relic like the harpsichord can do, with the right hands and brain.

What would JS prefer? More projection? A lively delivery? I think he would have preferred the organ (vs harpsichord) for both power and note sustainability.

Sadly, we do not have much that is quotable from the great man. As one scholar said, "only a few chestnuts from his sons." And none of these are specific about instrumentation.

....well, except for the one that suggests he prefered the clavichord above all (militant wing of the Clavichord Liberation Front speaking here, you understand)  >:D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Don on April 21, 2008, 11:26:56 AM
Quote from: Bunny on April 21, 2008, 10:38:14 AM

I know that no one's tuning or instrument sounds like Landowska's!  I was hoping you could tell me only how his tempi compare to hers.  I don't think I would enjoy anything slower than Landowska.  Also, I'm not sure that the overly stately tempos are HIP.  I suspect that Bach played a good deal faster than Egarr in the Goldbergs as well.  I hate it when the pieces are played slowly as they begin to sound like pedagogic exercises, and remind me of my own efforts on the piano as a 14 year old.

My memory might be a little off, but I recollect that Egarr is extremely slow in Bach's faster pieces, not particularly slow in the more reflective ones.  Unless you have money to burn, I suggest passing on the Egarr.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 21, 2008, 01:10:48 PM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 21, 2008, 02:29:35 AM
Yes, it is essentially impossible to play any music without an interpretation of some sort.  However I will argue that not all HIPs will sound alike -- given the fact that Egarr is no new hand in this business, I, unlike you, will refrain from speculating on how "pre-HIP" his performance appears to be.   In some fugues his approach is actually similar to that of Davitt Moroney, whose work I also enjoy among HIP versions.

No, Moroneys WTC is much more articulated than Egarr´s. And my primary concern as to Egarr´s WTC refers to his underarticulation of the music, not to the tempo. I can stand slow tempi, if the music is well articulated, e.g. Wolfgang Rübsam´s second Bach organ integral for Naxos. But Egarr - ?? What are his intensions? Does he think that he achieves the greatest possible objectivity by playing in this way? If he thinks so, he is misguided. I get more pleasure from reading the score, than by listening to Egarr, and what is the purpose of a recording under these circumstances.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Don on April 21, 2008, 03:06:45 PM
Quote from: premont on April 21, 2008, 01:10:48 PM
No, Moroneys WTC is much more articulated than Egarr´s. And my primary concern as to Egarr´s WTC refers to his underarticulation of the music, not to the tempo. I can stand slow tempi, if the music is well articulated, e.g. Wolfgang Rübsam´s second Bach organ integral for Naxos. But Egarr - ?? What are his intensions?

To reach cantabile heaven.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 22, 2008, 01:34:30 AM
Quote from: premont on April 21, 2008, 01:10:48 PM
But Egarr - ?? What are his intensions? Does he think that he achieves the greatest possible objectivity by playing in this way? If he thinks so, he is misguided. I get more pleasure from reading the score, than by listening to Egarr, and what is the purpose of a recording under these circumstances.

But you have been talking about YOUR responses, and I have talked about mine (no problems at all with his "underarticulation.")  I cannot be held responsible for whatever gap there is between the two and you might have to contact Egarr himself if you have doubts about HIS intentions.

Edit.  I have been reading a lot in these pages about how his interpretation sounds a lot like certain pre-HIP performances etc. - well, words don't do justice to how the music actually sounds like imo.  Two people can use exactly same words for their impressions of sounds that in fact differ in many, many ways.

Also I would encourage more reflection on this thing called HIP.  Performers can certainly have different takes on historical materials which they used towards devising their own interpretation.  I would not be surprised if even reading the same texts can yield vastly different conclusions about what to do with the same music score.   If possible, I would hope to see some actual quote from period literature on clavier playing that just how much articulation is required to make listenable phrases and so on.  Comparing different performances/recordings etc. doesn't seem to me to be a good alternative to this.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 22, 2008, 01:42:17 AM
Quote from: Don on April 21, 2008, 11:26:56 AM
Unless you have money to burn, I suggest passing on the Egarr.

On the contrary, I think the Egarr is far from worthless.  A different take on the music
and if you are as much interested in these things as I am, try it.  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Don on April 22, 2008, 05:48:16 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 22, 2008, 01:42:17 AM
On the contrary, I think the Egarr is far from worthless.  A different take on the music
and if you are as much interested in these things as I am, try it.  :)

I didn't indicate that Egarr's WTC was worthless and likely think as well of it as fl. traverso.  But the set is at premium price; that's a lot to pay for a set that is in the "try it" category.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 22, 2008, 07:51:11 AM
Quote from: Don on April 22, 2008, 05:48:16 AM
I didn't indicate that Egarr's WTC was worthless and likely think as well of it as fl. traverso.  But the set is at premium price; that's a lot to pay for a set that is in the "try it" category.

After reading all the comments, I would venture to say that despite misgivings I am curious to hear some of the pieces.  If it's available on Itunes plus or as an amazon download, I may purchase some of the tracks to sample.  That way I can save money and also get a good sample.   :)

Right now I'm so sorry my local Tower Records closed!  How I miss the listening rooms.  :'(
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 22, 2008, 02:10:48 PM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 22, 2008, 01:34:30 AM

...some actual quote from period literature on clavier playing that just how much articulation is required to make listenable phrases and so on. 

I am not a musicologist, and others may correct me, if I am wrong, but as far as I know, there are no detailed contemporary sources describing Bach´s playing style. Some treatises about performance of music are written by the next generation (CPE Bach, J.J.Quantz and Leopold Mozart) and reflect another musical taste. Concerning Bach´s articulation by the way you can study the scores of his chamber music (as I wrote earlier) with profit, since he supplied these with rather many (most often) short articulation ties indicating a detailed and pointed rhytmichal articulation. This is first and foremost true of the parts for stringed instruments, but the same principles may easily be applied to other instruments - not the least to the organ and the harpsichord, because underarticulated playing on these instruments tends to blur the rhythm. Play a simple C major scale legato on an organ or a harpsichord, and no listener can tell the rhythm, because the instruments lack the possibility of dynamical differentiation. Underarticulation may make the music calm and beautiful, but it deprives it of its rhythmical life, and remark well that Bach´s music is a cornucopia of dancing rhythmic life, provided it is not suppressed by underarticulation.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on April 23, 2008, 08:07:51 AM
Quote from: premont on April 22, 2008, 02:10:48 PM
[...] and remark well that Bach´s music is a cornucopia of dancing rhythmic life, provided it is not suppressed by underarticulation.

So true!  If he had not been interested in the rhythmic aspects of the music, then why use so many dance forms?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 23, 2008, 09:13:32 AM
Quote from: premont on April 22, 2008, 02:10:48 PM
Play a simple C major scale legato on an organ or a harpsichord, and no listener can tell the rhythm, because the instruments lack the possibility of dynamical differentiation. Underarticulation may make the music calm and beautiful, but it deprives it of its rhythmical life, and remark well that Bach´s music is a cornucopia of dancing rhythmic life, provided it is not suppressed by underarticulation.

Yes...but I find Egarr applying sufficient inflection in movements with clear dance character, which are not that many in WTC.  Sorry, but your paraphrase doesn't do much for me here because it is not necessarily a good fit on the keyboard music (esp. in the WTC category) - the fact that Bach chose not to use many articulation marks in keyboard scores can certainly use a different interpretation from yours.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 23, 2008, 09:58:51 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 23, 2008, 09:13:32 AM
Yes...but I find Egarr applying sufficient inflection in movements with clear dance character, which are not that many in WTC.  Sorry, but your paraphrase doesn't do much for me here because it is not necessarily a good fit on the keyboard music (esp. in the WTC category) -
Again you understand me too literally. I do not claim, that every Bach-movement is a well defined dance, but I want to draw attention to the fact, that the dance element is present almost everywhere in his music. Listen to the first movement of the Fifth Brandenburg. Is this a dance? No, but the music so to say dances by itself.


Quote from: fl.traverso on April 23, 2008, 09:13:32 AM
the fact that Bach chose not to use many articulation marks in keyboard scores can certainly use a different interpretation from yours.
I suppose you want to maintain, that Bach´s keyboard music must be played lethargic and unarticulated.  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 23, 2008, 10:31:43 AM
Quote from: premont on April 23, 2008, 09:58:51 AM
Again you understand me too literally. I do not claim, that every Bach-movement is a well defined dance, but I want to draw attention to the fact, that the dance element is present almost everywhere in his music. Listen to the first movement of the Fifth Brandenburg. Is this a dance? No, but the music so to say dances by itself.

I will take issue with you on the last point regarding Brandenburg 5 -- dance-like is one of the options but not the only one.  What in history asserts that it is?  ;)

Quote

I suppose you want to maintain, that Bach´s keyboard music must be played lethargic and unarticulated.  :o :o :o


Wrong supposition - I'd never use the word "must" like you did.  And how is slow necessarily "lethargic"?   Stop putting words in my mouth already. :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 23, 2008, 12:19:25 PM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 23, 2008, 10:31:43 AM
I will take issue with you on the last point regarding Brandenburg 5 -- dance-like is one of the options but not the only one. 
Yes, and the other option is, that the music should speak - it should be well phrased and articulated, can we name this the rhethorical option? ;)

Quote from: fl.traverso on April 23, 2008, 10:31:43 AM
Wrong supposition - I'd never use the word "must" like you did.  And how is slow necessarily "lethargic"?   Stop putting words in my mouth already. :)
Pardon, I didn´t mean "must", I meant "should".

Interesting comment here BTW:

Quote from: fl.traverso on April 16, 2008, 06:32:50 AM
I would say it's an overstatement to call Egarr's WTC unexciting...let's just say that his interpretation simply favours a more balanced and receiving mind than mine.  ;)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 24, 2008, 12:21:05 AM
Quote from: premont on April 23, 2008, 12:19:25 PM
Yes, and the other option is, that the music should speak - it should be well phrased and articulated, can we name this the rhethorical option? ;)

Or the "discursive" kind, but I think there are more than the two options you have listed so far.   Language simply doesn't do music justice in describing how it can be.   One needs to listen to the real thing itself.

Quote
Pardon, I didn´t mean "must", I meant "should".

Neither "must" nor "should" is what I said.  You had simply misinterpreted my words.  Twice. ::)   How about "could"?  HIP isn't as dogmatic as some people have made it out to be.  Stylistic options are as many as the performer's readings of his/her material at hand.

I had disliked Egarr's WTC more before, and I have liked it a lot more since.  I think I have a more balanced and receiving mind now.  0:)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 24, 2008, 01:13:04 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 24, 2008, 12:21:05 AM
Or the "discursive" kind, but I think there are more than the two options you have listed so far.   Language simply doesn't do music justice in describing how it can be.   One needs to listen to the real thing itself.

And if you only listen to a certain kind of performers, you will never find out, how the music can be. At least I find very much more spiritual and emotional content in the WTC I , than Egarr for inexplicable reasons has chosen to express. Wilhelm Kempff has also been accused of being to "soft", but for some reason his approach works much better in romantic music I think, whereas his Bach is suffering from the same kind of emotional suppression as Egarrs.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 24, 2008, 02:02:53 AM
Quote from: premont on April 24, 2008, 01:13:04 AM
And if you only listen to a certain kind of performers, you will never find out, how the music can be. At least I find very much more spiritual and emotional content in the WTC I , than Egarr for inexplicable reasons has chosen to express. Wilhelm Kempff has also been accused of being to "soft", but for some reason his approach works much better in romantic music I think, whereas his Bach is suffering from the same kind of emotional suppression as Egarrs.

Of course I don't just listen to one kind of performance - I consider myself to be more inclusive than you appear to be in these matters actually.  Your characterisations of Kempff vs. Egarr, etc. again are YOUR take, and I am not going to quibble with those as they have nothing on me.  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 24, 2008, 04:56:33 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 24, 2008, 02:02:53 AM
Of course I don't just listen to one kind of performance - I consider myself to be more inclusive than you appear to be in these matters actually. 

So do I, and I appreciate, when an artist makes great efforts to display the beauty in Bachs music. So does e.g. Kenneth Gilbert, but he is considerably more articulated than Egarr, and his agogics are subtle and not mannered as Egarr´s. This is, why his interpretations have got a rich inner life beneath the beautiful surface. And this is, what I miss with Egarr, and why he makes me fall asleep. Period.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 24, 2008, 05:45:26 PM
Quote from: premont on April 24, 2008, 04:56:33 AM
And this is, what I miss with Egarr, and why he makes me fall asleep. Period.

Sorry that your ever so DISCRIMINATING taste doesn't allow you to be receptive of his art -- me, I have no problem with Egarr's WTC now (if I did initially) and he doesn't make me fall asleep, period, eh no, semicolon!  ;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Don on May 21, 2008, 10:22:54 PM
Quote from: Don on April 21, 2008, 11:26:56 AM
My memory might be a little off, but I recollect that Egarr is extremely slow in Bach's faster pieces, not particularly slow in the more reflective ones.  Unless you have money to burn, I suggest passing on the Egarr.

I decided to give Egarr's WTC I another try and am glad I did so.  Already knowing that Egarr doesn't bother with getting the most out of the music's dark side, I just took it on its own terms and found much to appreciate and enjoy.  He does a great job with the dialogue among the musical lines, and I find his variety of colors within each piece exceptional.  Still, the lack of emotional involvement does get wearisome after a while.  The WTC has the potential to take listeners from the highest levels of spirituality down to the bleakest expressions of humankind.  Egarr pretty much avoids one-half of the picture.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on May 22, 2008, 01:54:27 AM
Quote from: Don on May 21, 2008, 10:22:54 PM
I decided to give Egarr's WTC I another try and am glad I did so.  Already knowing that Egarr doesn't bother with getting the most out of the music's dark side, I just took it on its own terms and found much to appreciate and enjoy.  He does a great job with the dialogue among the musical lines, and I find his variety of colors within each piece exceptional.  Still, the lack of emotional involvement does get wearisome after a while.  The WTC has the potential to take listeners from the highest levels of spirituality down to the bleakest expressions of humankind.  Egarr pretty much avoids one-half of the picture.

My impression has been that of his way of working out the polyphony also.  Nothing too instrumental there.  I think it is quite moving for what it is. 

Bach on clavichord (a different Bach)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pUX2HaeOL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on May 23, 2008, 12:07:20 AM
Quote from: traverso on May 22, 2008, 01:54:27 AM
Bach on clavichord (a different Bach)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pUX2HaeOL._SS500_.jpg)

How is the quality of the keyboard output of that Bach? I believe there are some issues in that series with tangent piano as well?

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2008, 04:15:28 AM
Quote from: Que on May 23, 2008, 12:07:20 AM
How is the quality of the keyboard output of that Bach? I believe there are some issues in that series with tangent piano as well?

Q

CPE Bach is a really interesting composer if one is receptive to the musical style of Empfindsamkeit
A tangent piano has been used in the sister series of concertante keyboard music by CPE.  In the solo series
it is just a clavichord, which was CPE's favourite instrument, and his music, like Couperin's, reveals special
affinity with a particular kind of instrument. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 05, 2008, 10:20:17 AM
Few days ago the postman brought me some CDs from USA.
The most impressive of all them was one devoted to the six organ trio sonatas (Lyrichord, 2001), but played this time on two lute-harpsichords (following an 1800 edition).
The sound is great and I really understand why the old Bach loved this instrument.
The playing by Shawn Leopard and John Paul is excellent and you can listen to very clearly the three different lines of these pieces.
And the lute-harpsichord provides a so melancholic sense!
Does anyone know it?
If not, you can listen to: http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=580267


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 05, 2008, 12:09:53 PM
Thanks for the tip Antoime, I am certainly going to investigate this.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on October 05, 2008, 01:33:21 PM
Niccceee, thanks Antoine! :)

Funny though that the instruments on the cover are no lute-harpsichords, I believe...


Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 05, 2008, 02:58:14 PM
You´re welcome, premont and Que  ;D.

BTW, the figures on the cover are really like the lute-harpsichords that I can see in the booklet; although I agree they seem pianos or fortepianos indeed. They were built by Anden Houben, who was the recording engineer too... and this thing is superbly well recorded.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on November 13, 2008, 08:51:45 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on November 13, 2008, 04:43:36 PM
This isn't in the piano arena, but last night I listened to the best French Suites I've ever heard from harpsichordist Alan Curtis on Teldec.
He combines hesitations and staggering of musical lines expertly with the result being enhanced rhythmic tension.  Also, he varies lean and full phrasing beautifully, and the conversational element is mesmerizing.  Easily the most interesting interpretation on record.

Seconded, his English Suites are as good as I commented here:

Quote from: Que on April 29, 2007, 12:55:22 AM
Another beautiful recording is by Alan Curtis - combined with equally impressive performances of the French Suites.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5005541.jpg)

And of course Christoph Rousset for either as well, if you don't mind a speeding ticket and "wet" acoustics! :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HZRNCPBSL._SS500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KZ0DJ4KTL._SS400_.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on November 14, 2008, 06:34:35 AM
The Curtis French and English Suites were also available in Teldec's Bach 2000 boxed set.  They were paired together with cd 101 comprising the 1st and 2nd French and English Suites, cd 102 the 3rd and 4th Suites; and cd 103 the 5th and 6th suites.  They still turn up at various outlets in the blue covers.



Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on November 14, 2008, 06:53:19 AM
For more Lautenwerk recordings, try Robert Hill and Ekkehard Weber's recording of the sonatas for viol da gamba.  That has become one of my favorite recordings of these works, and it's available very reasonably from Amazon.

(http://www.qualiton.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/063/063_1231.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on November 14, 2008, 07:00:39 AM
Quote from: Bunny on November 14, 2008, 06:34:35 AM
The Curtis French and English Suites were also available in Teldec's Bach 2000 boxed set.  They were paired together with cd 101 comprising the 1st and 2nd French and English Suites, cd 102 the 3rd and 4th Suites; and cd 103 the 5th and 6th suites.  They still turn up at various outlets in the blue covers.

And they were/are available in Warner's Apex series on three single discs:

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/000/457/0000045738_350.jpg) (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/msiart/large/0000601/0000601642.jpg) (http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/000/457/0000045739_350.jpg)

Must my cheapest triple-A Bach recordings ever - unfortunately the series is more expensive in the USA...

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on November 14, 2008, 07:04:24 AM
Because Warner as a label doesn't exist in the USA.  All of the Warner cds are imports, but they may be less expensive now with the strengthening of the dollar. ;)

Yes a quick perusal of Amazon shows those discs for sale by the partners from less than $5.00 per disc (used) to around $15.00 new.  Quite a bargain if you don't have them yet. :D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 14, 2008, 09:45:42 AM
Quote from: Que on November 14, 2008, 07:00:39 AM
And they were/are available in Warner's Apex series on three single discs:

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/000/457/0000045738_350.jpg) (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/msiart/large/0000601/0000601642.jpg) (http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/000/457/0000045739_350.jpg)

Must my cheapest triple-A Bach recordings ever - unfortunately the series is more expensive in the USA...

Currently, do not own these works on the harpsichord - Alan Curtis seems to be a great 'value' set to obtain!  So, I was checking various sources today, and found that BRO HERE (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=bach+curtis&filter=all) was offering 2 of the CDs on Teldec for a total of only $7!  The disc of Suites 1-2 can be obtained from Amazon on the Apex label ($5 from Caiman) - may be doing some ordering today?  ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 30, 2008, 02:26:31 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 05, 2008, 10:20:17 AM
Few days ago the postman brought me some CDs from USA.
The most impressive of all them was one devoted to the six organ trio sonatas (Lyrichord, 2001), but played this time on two lute-harpsichords (following an 1800 edition).
The sound is great and I really understand why the old Bach loved this instrument.
The playing by Shawn Leopard and John Paul is excellent and you can listen to very clearly the three different lines of these pieces.
And the lute-harpsichord provides a so melancholic sense!
Does anyone know it?
If not, you can listen to: http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=580267

Got this yesterday, and it is nothing less than a relevation. I have never heard about the two musicians, but they play in fine style and their ensemble is impeccable. The sweet sounds of the two lute-harpsichords blend in the most beautiful way. They do not make the original organ version fade, but may be recommended for additional (addictional) listening. I am sure, that Que and Harry and many others would love it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 30, 2008, 05:52:59 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 14, 2008, 09:45:42 AM
Currently, do not own these works on the harpsichord - Alan Curtis seems to be a great 'value' set to obtain!  So, I was checking various sources today, and found that BRO HERE (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=bach+curtis&filter=all) was offering 2 of the CDs on Teldec for a total of only $7!  The disc of Suites 1-2 can be obtained from Amazon on the Apex label ($5 from Caiman) - may be doing some ordering today?  ;D

For those in the USA, I just received by BRO order - checked the linked above a few moments ago and the 3-6 suites are still available - posted yesterday in the 'listening thread' - again, total cost was $12 + S/H; so if you want these works played well on the harpsichord and want a good deal, then this route might be for you!  :D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on November 30, 2008, 07:26:50 AM
Quote from: premont on November 30, 2008, 02:26:31 AM
Got this yesterday, and it is nothing less than a relevation. I have never heard about the two musicians, but they play in fine style and their ensemble is impeccable. The sweet sounds of the two lute-harpsichords blend in the most beautiful way. They do not make the original organ version fade, but may be recommended for additional (addictional) listening. I am sure, that Que and Harry and many others would love it.

Apparently Leopard and Paul have a second volume of trio sonatas which has the trio sonata BWV 1079 from Musikalisches Opfer as well as works by Telemann, Distler, Langlais, & al.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ZV10KJHZL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 02, 2008, 05:50:38 AM
Quote from: premont on November 30, 2008, 02:26:31 AM
Got this yesterday, and it is nothing less than a relevation. I have never heard about the two musicians, but they play in fine style and their ensemble is impeccable. The sweet sounds of the two lute-harpsichords blend in the most beautiful way. They do not make the original organ version fade, but may be recommended for additional (addictional) listening. I am sure, that Que and Harry and many others would love it.

Congratulations, premont!  ;D Unknown players and little labels are our salvation because the mainstream isn't always interested in lute-harpsichords, clavichords, violoncellos da spalla, pianofortes, square pianos, tangent pianos and similar delights.

In this way I want to share a real find with the board  :o.

It's about Jaroslav Tuma playing the Goldberg Variations on two clavichords. The first one is an instrument built in 2004 and based on an original of 1761 by David Tannenberg and chosen as the lower manual for the pair of clavichords. On it stood a small clavichord that is a copy (2002) of a clavichord of 1787 built by Christian Gottlob Hubert of Ansbach.

Here two examples:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=v7IyetFoUkI

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=txdivlZABcM

What do you think about?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2008, 11:57:49 AM
When I wrote my previous post I believed that Bach on clavichord would be a very appeal thing for some people in this thread; but, it seems, I wasn't sufficiently specific  ::):

Goldberg Variations: http://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=f10136en&site=en

The Well-Tempered Clavichord: http://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=f10165en&site=en  :o

Inventions & Sinfonias, Duets: http://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=f10076en&site=en

I have all of these Cd's now and just can say that people interested in Bach and clavichord should go for them... Honest!

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on December 07, 2008, 12:05:08 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2008, 11:57:49 AM
When I wrote my previous post I believed that Bach on clavichord would be a very appeal thing for some people in this thread; but, it seems, I wasn't sufficiently specific  ::):

Goldberg Variations: http://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=f10136en&site=en

The Well Tempered Clavier: http://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=f10165en&site=en  :o

Inventions & Sinfonias, Duets: http://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=f10076en&site=en

I have all of these Cd's now and just can say that people interested in Bach and clavichord should go for them... Honest!



Nice to see the ARTA site agian - plenty of new goodies! :)

And oooohh my, there goes my Christmas bonus... 8)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 07, 2008, 01:32:03 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2008, 11:57:49 AM
When I wrote my previous post I believed that Bach on clavichord would be a very appeal thing for some people in this thread; but, it seems, I wasn't sufficiently specific  ::):
I have all of these Cd's now and just can say that people interested in Bach and clavichord should go for them... Honest!

Thanks for these links, and for the information. Which sort of payment does Arta accept? Visa card?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2008, 01:37:30 PM
Some examples can be useful (unfortunately something is lost in the conversion to mp3 because of the very elusive sound of the clavichord)):

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=T8MTthGkfl8

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=3OTJU0mwyQg

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=3M0ZqetN7A8

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=1oOyXgNL6HU


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 07, 2008, 01:47:21 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 02, 2008, 05:50:38 AM

It's about Jaroslav Tuma playing the Goldberg Variations on two clavichords. The first one is an instrument built in 2004 and based on an original of 1761 by David Tannenberg and chosen as the lower manual for the pair of clavichords. On it stood a small clavichord that is a copy (2002) of a clavichord of 1787 built by Christian Gottlob Hubert of Ansbach.

What do you think about?

Very beautiful and expressive, as I would expect the Aria proper and Var. XV to be. One might wonder if Var. XXVIII and XXIX work equally well on clavichord. A propos Jaroslav Tuma I own his most noble and distinguished Art of Fuge (on organ), for whom he also recorded the Clavierübung III on organ and the WTC I on harpsichord. Interesting to see, that he has embarked on a Bach/clavichord project like Richard Troeger. I always wondered, why the clavichord was so seldom used for recordings of Bachs keyboard music. The Inventions, French Suites and much of the WTC among other things work very well on clavichord, and even Richard Troegers Art of Fuge is a great and unusual pleasure.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 07, 2008, 02:01:48 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2008, 01:37:30 PM
Some examples can be useful (unfortunately something is lost in the conversion to mp3 because of the very elusive sound of the clavichord)):

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=T8MTthGkfl8

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=3OTJU0mwyQg

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=3M0ZqetN7A8

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=1oOyXgNL6HU


Very nice with clear part playing and natural agogics. A strong case for the acquisition of the CDs.

The first of these four links does not work BTW.

And you did not tell me, if Arta accepts Visa card.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 07, 2008, 02:06:21 PM
Antoine, do you think this is the same recording?

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/SESSIONID/22d46a7725f6c4527cdde565d1763a41/classic/detail/-/hnum/2061729?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2008, 02:11:57 PM
Quote from: premont on December 07, 2008, 02:01:48 PM
Very nice with clear part playing and natural agogics. A strong case for the acquisition of the CDs.

The first of these four links does not work BTW.

And you did not tell me, if Arta accepts Visa card.

... well, I paid with Visa. They use a secure server, but I don't remember the name. I ordered from Chile and the package (with a very homemade look) was in my home three weeks after. The prices are very low, but you must use a converter because they are expressed only in czech crowns.

I checked the first link and it's working out for me.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 07, 2008, 02:17:48 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2008, 02:11:57 PM
... well, I paid with Visa. They use a secure server, but I don't remember the name. I ordered from Chile and the package (with a very homemade look) was in my home three weeks after. The prices are very low, but you must use a converter because they are expressed only in czech crowns.
Thanks.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2008, 02:11:57 PM
I checked the first link and it's working out for me.
I checked it out one more time, and it still does not work for me, but the three others are fine.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2008, 02:19:58 PM
Quote from: premont on December 07, 2008, 02:06:21 PM
Antoine, do you think this is the same recording?

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/SESSIONID/22d46a7725f6c4527cdde565d1763a41/classic/detail/-/hnum/2061729?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist

That's right, the same recording (all the four cds), but rather more expensive and AFIK jpc hasn't in stock the Goldbergs and the Inventions & Sinfonias
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2008, 02:47:47 PM
Quote from: premont on December 07, 2008, 01:47:21 PM
Very beautiful and expressive, as I would expect the Aria proper and Var. XV to be. One might wonder if Var. XXVIII and XXIX work equally well on clavichord. A propos Jaroslav Tuma I own his most noble and distinguished Art of Fuge (on organ), for whom he also recorded the Clavierübung III on organ and the WTC I on harpsichord. Interesting to see, that he has embarked on a Bach/clavichord project like Richard Troeger. I always wondered, why the clavichord was so seldom used for recordings of Bachs keyboard music. The Inventions, French Suites and much of the WTC among other things work very well on clavichord, and even Richard Troegers Art of Fuge is a great and unusual pleasure.

Variatio XXVIII: http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7XB7M5M10

Variatio XXIX: http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=_Usjar7LwLY

I forgot to say that the Goldbergs include two cds: one played on two clavichords an the other on a harpsichord
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 07, 2008, 03:09:19 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 02, 2008, 05:50:38 AM

It's about Jaroslav Tuma playing the Goldberg Variations on two clavichords. The first one is an instrument built in 2004 and based on an original of 1761 by David Tannenberg and chosen as the lower manual for the pair of clavichords. On it stood a small clavichord that is a copy (2002) of a clavichord of 1787 built by Christian Gottlob Hubert of Ansbach.........................


Hi Antoine - getting in a little late to your posts in this thread, but the name David Tannenberg bolded above peaked my interest - I made a post in the 'listening thread' back in August (see below) about this instrument builder - I live in Winston-Salem, NC, so he is considered special here!  :)

Now, I love the clavichord, but have few recordings on that instrument - I believe that Bach actually loved the clavichord - the discs that you are linking look quite interesting to me, but just not sure about their availability in the USA, esp. considering pricing and shipping - I'd love to hear them, though -  :D

QuoteJust returned from a concert entitled Music in Revolutionary Salem held in the Old Salem Visitors Center - theme was music played in the late 18th century by known and now obscure composers, many of whom had some relationship (or their music) to Salem (since back then it was not called 'Old Salem' -  ;)) - the program was part of the Carolina Summer Music Festival (http://csmf.carolinachambersymphony.org/concerts/salem.html), and was quite varied - one 'thrill' was hearing a completely restored organ (located in the Gray Auditorium of the visitor's center) built by David Tannenberg and originally installed in 1800 in the Home Moravian Church; dismantled in 1910, and held in storage until the 1990s - apparently, now back to its original appearance & sound!

I loved the sound of this organ - not big but with a soft and much more delicate sound than most BIG organs - as a result I bought a CD (below) which I'm now enjoying - from the dedication of the restored organ in 2004 w/ Peter Sykes playing the instrument - varied program of CPE Bach, Johann Krebs, Mozart, Mendelssohn, Christian Latrobe, and a 'new piece' by Dan Locklair, a local composer - even bought a short book on the rebuilding of this organ (also below) done by Taylor & Boody Organbuilders out of Staunton, VA (birthplace of Woodrow Wilson) -  :D

(https://id312.securedata.net/ravencd.com/merchantmanager/images/oar-700.jpg)  (http://www.oldsalem.org/assets/images/a201_1.jpg)  (http://www.oldsalem.com/images/uploads/large/99252-l.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 07, 2008, 03:13:54 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2008, 02:47:47 PM
Variatio XXVIII: http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7XB7M5M10

Variatio XXIX: http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=_Usjar7LwLY

As I expected, I find, that these two variations work less well on clavichord. Some of the brilliance and effortlessness of the harpsichord is missing.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2008, 04:15:32 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 07, 2008, 03:09:19 PM
Hi Antoine - getting in a little late to your posts in this thread, but the name David Tannenberg bolded above peaked my interest - I made a post in the 'listening thread' back in August (see below) about this instrument builder - I live in Winston-Salem, NC, so he is considered special here!  :)

Now, I love the clavichord, but have few recordings on that instrument - I believe that Bach actually loved the clavichord - the discs that you are linking look quite interesting to me, but just not sure about their availability in the USA, esp. considering pricing and shipping - I'd love to hear them, though -  :D


Hi, SonicMan, all roads led to Salem  ;D, the town of the first American writer: Mr. Nathaniel Hawthorne. I love the Hawthorne's work, especially an amazing tale entitled "Wakefield" from the Twice-Told Tales.

BTW in the booklet of the Goldberg Variations, it's said about the clavichords:

"A large instrument built in 2002 and based on an original of 1761 by the organ-maker David Tannenberg (whose parents came from Moravia) living at the end of the 18th century in Pennsylvania, was used for the recording of the Goldberg Variations as the first manual. It is what is known as the unbound type of clavichord with a range of six octaves CC – c4. On top of it stood a small instrument with a range of 4 ½ octaves AA-e3, which is a copy of a clavichord of 1787 built by Christian Gottlob Hubert of Ansbach. This copy, completed in 2004, is from the private collection of Diez Eichler".
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 08, 2008, 08:48:00 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 07, 2008, 05:17:01 PM
Crystal clear, SonicMan  ;D  When I read "Old Salem" then I automatically thought in Hawthorne.

No problem - just trying to promote some tourism here for those 'passing through' the area -  ;) ;D

BTW - I've been to Salem, Mass. several times - another fun place to visit (and eat lobsters!) - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on December 10, 2008, 12:01:15 PM
I just listened to the Alan Curtis French Suites last night and I was struck by how similarly they sounded to the Rousset Ambroisie recording.  I think the Rousset might be a trifle better, especially wrt the instrument Rousset used, which imo has a nicer sound.  The accoustics of both recordings are very similar wrt reverb and soundstage.  However, the price of the Curtis recordings (and they also include the English suites in my set) is much lower -- if you can find the complete offering of 3 cds.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 10, 2008, 12:15:39 PM
Quote from: Bunny on December 10, 2008, 12:01:15 PM
I just listened to the Alan Curtis French Suites last night and I was struck by how similarly they sounded to the Rousset Ambroisie recording.  I think the Rousset might be a trifle better, especially wrt the instrument Rousset used, which imo has a nicer sound.  The accoustics of both recordings are very similar wrt reverb and soundstage.  However, the price of the Curtis recordings (and they also include the English suites in my set) is much lower -- if you can find the complete offering of 3 cds.

I'm surprised you found the Curtis and Rousset soundstages similar.  Although I have no problem with the Curtis, I find that the Rousset is much too wet.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on December 10, 2008, 04:03:22 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 10, 2008, 12:15:39 PM
I'm surprised you found the Curtis and Rousset soundstages similar.  Although I have no problem with the Curtis, I find that the Rousset is much too wet.

I don't think it's the accoustic so much as the difference between the two instruments, although the Ruckers is slightly more closely miked.  The harpsichord used by Rousset (the Ruckers) is just a stronger, more reverberant instrument which I have read is typical of the Flemish instruments, with more power in the bass registers.  There's also a marked difference in pitch as well with the Rousset instrument tuned almost a half tone lower than the Zell used by Curtis.  Rousset also varies the tempos of the suites more than Curtis so that the faster movements really zip especially after the slower movements which Rousset stretches out, exploiting the way the notes float through the air and decay. Curtis on the other hand seems to keep note values very close.  An eighth note played in a courante is very close to the same eighth note played in an allemande, etc.: the rhythms stay very close.  I also felt that Rousset's playing is a bit more fluid, and his embellishments were a little more natural sounding.

If I had the booklets handy I could see if anything was provided about the tuning, but the pitches are definitely different for the French Suites, and that's not a matter of the accoustic.  I think all of these factors increase the perception of the reverberance of the Rousset recording.  I can, however see how you might not enjoy something like this if you don't like reverb.  The Ruckers is an extremely sonorous instrument and Rousset is clearly enjoying the sound and exploiting it.  This is actually the recording that turned me off etymotics -- they just didn't convey the note decay.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 10, 2008, 04:59:03 PM
Quote from: Bunny on December 10, 2008, 04:03:22 PM
I can, however see how you might not enjoy something like this if you don't like reverb. 

And I don't like it at all, although I'm aware that many love that type of sound.  For me, it reduces clarity, musical detail and conversational properties.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 10, 2008, 05:25:47 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 10, 2008, 04:59:03 PM
And I don't like it at all, although I'm aware that many love that type of sound.  For me, it reduces clarity, musical detail and conversational properties.

I'm no fan of excess reverb either. In all the years it's something I've never been able to overcome.

78s give more pleasure than soggy reverb.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on December 10, 2008, 05:33:20 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 10, 2008, 04:59:03 PM
And I don't like it at all, although I'm aware that many love that type of sound.  For me, it reduces clarity, musical detail and conversational properties.

Quote from: donwyn on December 10, 2008, 05:25:47 PM
I'm no fan of excess reverb either. In all the years it's something I've never been able to overcome.

78s give more pleasure than soggy reverb.




I'm really a sensualist when it comes to sound rather than an analyst.  I understand that structural clarity is going to be more apparent with less reverberance and less embellishment, but it's Baroque Art not Neo-Classical.  Where is the flamboyance and drama of Curtis's recording?  It's just not baroque enough for me.  When I hear the rich sound of the notes pouring out of the Ruckers, it's as if I can see each one floating through the air, sparkling like dust motes turned golden by the sun.  I just don't get that from Curtis's drier recording.  Sometimes it's not about hearing the structure or being able to analyze every word of the dialogue.  Sometimes it's about being transported to a different universe of colors and sounds that are more intense and vibrant.  For me Rousset's recording of the French Suites are the musical equivalent of Bernini's St. Theresa.  The little angel with his arrow pierces her heart the way the notes pierce mine.  The Curtis recording is quite fine, but the Rousset is extraordinary.

Donwyn, I don't know how I could live if all I could listen to were the pallid notes from a 78 recording.  I'd never even own a recording -- I'd just go to concerts rather than settle for such a poor representation.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 10, 2008, 05:51:00 PM
Quote from: Bunny on December 10, 2008, 05:33:20 PM
I'm really a sensualist when it comes to sound rather than an analyst.  I understand that structural clarity is going to be more apparent with less reverberance and less embellishment, but it's Baroque Art not Neo-Classical.  Where is the flamboyance and drama of Curtis's recording?  It's just not baroque enough for me.  When I hear the rich sound of the notes pouring out of the Ruckers, it's as if I can see each one floating through the air, sparkling like dust motes turned golden by the sun.  I just don't get that from Curtis's drier recording.  Sometimes it's not about hearing the structure or being able to analyze every word of the dialogue.  Sometimes it's about being transported to a different universe of colors and sounds that are more intense and vibrant.  For me Rousset's recording of the French Suites are the musical equivalent of Bernini's St. Theresa.  The little angel with his arrow pierces her heart the way the notes pierce mine.  The Curtis recording is quite fine, but the Rousset is extraordinary.

I find the Curtis recording extraordinary, and I couldn't disagree more about which recording sounds "baroque".  As for drama, there's abundant drama in the Curtis interpretations.  Also, Curtis does transport me to a unique universe; Rousset transports me to the bathtub.  Perhaps my distaste for taking a bath enters into the picture. :)

Oh well, different strokes and all that.  I only wish that Rousset's soundstage was more like that on his Decca recordings.  By the way, have you heard the David Cates account of the French Suites on the Music & Arts label?  I'd be interested in your views on the performance and soundstage.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on December 10, 2008, 05:56:48 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 10, 2008, 05:51:00 PM
I find the Curtis recording extraordinary, and I couldn't disagree more about which recording sounds "baroque".  As for drama, there's abundant drama in the Curtis interpretations.  Also, Curtis does transport me to a unique universe; Rousset transports me to the bathtub.  Perhaps my distaste for taking a bath enters into the picture. :)

Oh well, different strokes and all that.  I only wish that Rousset's soundstage was more like that on his Decca recordings.  By the way, have you heard the David Cates account of the French Suites on the Music & Arts label?  I'd be interested in your views on the performance and soundstage.

I don't have that, do you think I would enjoy it?

No samples available at Amazon.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 10, 2008, 06:17:48 PM
Quote from: Bunny on December 10, 2008, 05:33:20 PM
Donwyn, I don't know how I could live if all I could listen to were the pallid notes from a 78 recording.  I'd never even own a recording -- I'd just go to concerts rather than settle for such a poor representation.

We certainly see eye-to-eye on that, Bunny.

I wouldn't dream of defending 78s but I still can somehow tolerate dim, scratchy recordings more than excessively soggy ones.

Above all I'm grateful I don't have to settle for either of these limitations.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 11, 2008, 06:08:04 AM
Quote from: Bunny on December 10, 2008, 05:56:48 PM
I don't have that, do you think I would enjoy it?

No samples available at Amazon.

The Cates recording is on the Naxos Music Library site that allows 15 minute previews for non-members.  Cates uses a staggering technique that I find totally absorbing, and the reverb. is greater than in the Curtis recording.  Check it out.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on December 11, 2008, 10:25:34 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 11, 2008, 06:08:04 AM
The Cates recording is on the Naxos Music Library site that allows 15 minute previews for non-members.  Cates uses a staggering technique that I find totally absorbing, and the reverb. is greater than in the Curtis recording.  Check it out.

Thanks!  I certainly will do so.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Captain Flint on December 13, 2008, 07:37:49 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VQ8M3AREL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Gustav Leonhardt: Bach, Bull, Byrd, Gibbons, Hassler, Pachelbel, Ritter, Strogers
Alpha 042

Anyone liking odd keyboard instruments should try listening to the claviorganum (or claviorgan), an unusual device combining a harpsichord and an organ.

In this album, Gustav Leonhardt plays pieces from different northern Europe baroque composers that were influenced by italian music. The last three tracks are JSB's compositions (BWV 1121, BWV 989, BWV 767) but they are played on a harpsichord.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 26, 2008, 04:52:58 PM
I've been a follower of this thread from the beginning, and would like to acquire a 'harpsichord' version of the WTC  Bach recordings  Thanks -  :)

Currently, as already mentioned I'm interested in the WTC recordings for Harpsichord - I've already obtained a number of piano versions which have been well recommended - now after reviewing this thread, I'm still confused about which harpsichord versions (whether on standard or gut-strung instruments) would be the best choices - now I don't need 'multiple' versions, but would enjoy a consensus opinion on a set of recordings that all would considered excellent - please provide some choices of those discussed so far (or others not mentioned) - thanks to all - Dave
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on December 26, 2008, 07:47:32 PM
Dave, my favourites are Ottavio Dantone and Glen Wilson.

See on the Dantone see my comments HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.msg133655.html#msg133655).

I got Glen Wilson' set on don's (Bulldog) recommendation: a solid but subtly balanced, transparant  and imaginative WTC. Sadly OOP, but that hasn't stopped you before! :) Besides, this perhaps might be part of the reissues form the "Das Alte Werk" series, that Warner/Teldec is doing.

If you like Christophe Rousset, whose WTC will be delightfull if judged on the basis of the excerpts in the issue of Wilhelm Friedemann's Klavierbuch, you might like Dantone.

Glen Wilson' style is more in the direction of Alan Curtis, that you recently got.

Q


(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/07/489807.jpg)  (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/49/493449.jpg)

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Wilson-Glen-K01%5BTeldec%5D.jpg)   (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Wilson-Glen-K02%5BTeldec%5D.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 26, 2008, 09:28:02 PM
I agree with Que's recommendations of Wilson and Dantone.  For an alternative version having no equal when it comes to clarity of counterpoint and balance of voices, check out Edward Parmentier on the Wildboar label.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 27, 2008, 09:06:35 AM
Que & Don - thanks for your responses & the recommendations - this morning, I was just going through the list of recordings available of these works on harpsichord on Amazon USA - did not exhaust the review!  There seems to be plenty, but much is OOP and/or overly priced, esp. in the marketplace!

Some others that 'surfaced' w/ good Amazonian comments included Bob van Asperen on the Virgin label @ a great price (excellent reviews but not sure of the sound quality); Kenneth Gilbert on Arkiv Prod (availability & price may be an issue?); Luc Beausejour on Naxos (and just Bk. 1) - noticed that Don just did an average rating vs. some that were 5* (one rater suggest this for Bk. 1 & the Dantone for Bk. 2); Gary Cooper on the ASV label - now, never heard of this guy - any comments? (I like that label & prices not bad); and Robert Levin on 3 different instruments.

Certainly, the above review was not complete, and I'd like to have both Books (whether w/ one or two performers) - thus, will certainly add Dantone & Wilson as some TOP choices, and 'look around' - thanks again, Dave -  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 27, 2008, 09:38:32 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 27, 2008, 09:06:35 AM

Some others that 'surfaced' w/ good Amazonian comments included Bob van Asperen on the Virgin label @ a great price (excellent reviews but not sure of the sound quality); Kenneth Gilbert on Arkiv Prod (availability & price may be an issue?); Luc Beausejour on Naxos (and just Bk. 1) - noticed that Don just did an average rating vs. some that were 5* (one rater suggest this for Bk. 1 & the Dantone for Bk. 2); Gary Cooper on the ASV label - now, never heard of this guy - any comments? (I like that label & prices not bad); and Robert Levin on 3 different instruments.


van Asperen - Yes.
Beausejour - No, but the price is right.
Gilbert - Yes.
Cooper - No.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 27, 2008, 12:39:53 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 27, 2008, 09:38:32 AM
van Asperen - Yes.
Beausejour - No, but the price is right.
Gilbert - Yes.
Cooper - No.

Agree, but would like to add:

Levin - yes
Parmentier - no.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 27, 2008, 01:25:07 PM
Quote from: premont on December 27, 2008, 12:39:53 PM
Agree, but would like to add:

Levin - yes
Parmentier - no.

I forgot about the Levin, and it's a "yes" from me also.  What I didn't appreciate concerning Parmentier was some lack of characterization.  What didn't you like about it?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 27, 2008, 01:52:36 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 27, 2008, 01:25:07 PMWhat I didn't appreciate concerning Parmentier was some lack of characterization.  What didn't you like about it?

First and foremost I do not like his sense of tempo and his agogics. Seem to me to be applied at random, making the music fall apart at some level. And he has not at all got the authority of say Wolfgang Rübsam, who can bend the tempo deliberately, without loosing sight of the integrity of the work.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 27, 2008, 07:56:32 PM
Don & Premont - thanks for the additional comments - I was pretty much settled on the Dantone recordings but was a little reluctant at a discrepant review on Amazon between the two books; then I found two reviews on Classics Today by Ted Distler (who I've respected in the past) (Bk.1 HERE (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=5649) & Bk. 2 HERE (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=6804)) - rated 4/10 & 7/10, respectively - the sound ratings are disturbing to me, esp. on the first book.  Seems like there is presently no 'ideal' harpsichord set of these WTC works but I'll keep listening & researching - thanks all -  :D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 27, 2008, 08:06:59 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 27, 2008, 07:56:32 PM
Don & Premont - thanks for the additional comments - I was pretty much settled on the Dantone recordings but was a little reluctant at a discrepant review on Amazon between the two books; then I found two reviews on Classics Today by Ted Distler (who I've respected in the past) (Bk.1 HERE (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=5649) & Bk. 2 HERE (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=6804)) - rated 4/10 & 7/10, respectively - the sound ratings are disturbing to me, esp. on the first book.  Seems like there is presently no 'ideal' harpsichord set of these WTC works but I'll keep listening & researching - thanks all -  :D

The sound ratings are "10" on both discs; it's the performances that Distler doesn't like very much.  Concerning Distler, I don't tend to agree with him much.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on December 28, 2008, 01:39:35 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 27, 2008, 07:56:32 PM
Don & Premont - thanks for the additional comments - I was pretty much settled on the Dantone recordings but was a little reluctant at a discrepant review on Amazon between the two books; then I found two reviews on Classics Today by Ted Distler (who I've respected in the past) (Bk.1 HERE (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=5649) & Bk. 2 HERE (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=6804)) - rated 4/10 & 7/10, respectively - the sound ratings are disturbing to me, esp. on the first book.  Seems like there is presently no 'ideal' harpsichord set of these WTC works but I'll keep listening & researching - thanks all -  :D

Quote from: Bulldog on December 27, 2008, 08:06:59 PM
The sound ratings are "10" on both discs; it's the performances that Distler doesn't like very much.  Concerning Distler, I don't tend to agree with him much.

The recording is - as remarked previously - "audiophile".

Jed Distler is a fine reviewer, but I strongly disagree with him on these. These are IMO as ideal performances of the WTC as can be. Do not get the disctintion Distler and Amazonians make between Dantone's Book I and Book II BTW - his approach is the same and the results are of the same quality.

BTW Kirk McElhearn at Musicweb did like it (http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2002/Jan02/Bach_Dantone.htm) - much:

"This is a one of the best recordings available of the Well-Tempered Clavier for harpsichord. The combination of the beautiful instrument, excellent recording and uniquely personal interpretation puts this among the few truly indispensable recordings of this work on harpsichord. Ottavio Dantone is certainly a harpsichordist to follow in the coming years. This set announces a great musician."

Dave, I would sample online as much as you can find and make up you own mind.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on December 28, 2008, 04:24:07 AM
Quote from: premont on December 27, 2008, 12:39:53 PM
Agree, but would like to add:

Levin - yes
Parmentier - no.

Quote from: Bulldog on December 27, 2008, 01:25:07 PM
I forgot about the Levin, and it's a "yes" from me also. 

Don, Premont, how big a deal is the Levin? Nice or key recommendation?

The three instruments approach is of course in itself interesting.

Talking about alternative intrumentation makes me wonder about Antoine's recent recommendation of Jaroslav Tůma's recording on Arta of the complete WTC on clavichord. Does anyone else know it?

(http://www.prelude-klassiekemuziek.nl/arta/arta_bach10165.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 28, 2008, 06:12:27 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 27, 2008, 08:06:59 PM
The sound ratings are "10" on both discs; it's the performances that Distler doesn't like very much.  Concerning Distler, I don't tend to agree with him much.

Thanks again guys and sorry about reversing those ratings (I should know better!  ::)) - will do some 'online' sampling as suggested - Dave
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on December 28, 2008, 08:14:18 AM
Quote from: Que on April 26, 2007, 11:04:09 PM



Now on another note!  :D
I very much admire harpsichordist Christophe Rousset, and I'm considering this CD.
Does anyone know it? Thanks!

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia//images_produits/ZoomPE/6/7/7/3760020170776.jpg)
J.S. Bach, Klavierbüchlein, C.Rousset (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007Z47YS/nectarandambr-20)



If you can still get it (oop in North America), get it! It's the best thing since sliced bread. {Review on Ionarts (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/11/harpsichord-like-rarely-ever.html)}

And while you are at it, get his English and French Suites on Ambroise. Compared to these, the Decca recordings are merely "OK".

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KZ0DJ4KTL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000C8WXZ/nectarandambr-20)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HZRNCPBSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002SKT1U/nectarandambr-20)

Yes, they are somewhat (err.... ridiculously) expensive [for the price of all three 2-CD albums you could get the complete works of Bach in the Brilliant Box), but they are worth it. Even I - and I am quite used to getting CDs for free - have spent the money for the full price on these and never regretted it. The sound blooms on the Ruckers harpsichord like you wouldn't believe (until you've heard it), and Rousset's rubato really brings every piece to live. (Not that Bach wouldn't be 'alive' even in lesser, or more rigid, performances.) The sound on these three discs is unrivaled -- or, if rivaled, only by Blandine Rannou and her very fine, superb Bach on Zig Zag Territories (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000065BSS/nectarandambr-20).

If I had to order these three in terms of preference/impressiveness, I'd opt for: 1.) Klavierbüchlein 2.) French Suites 3.) English Suites.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on December 28, 2008, 10:18:47 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 28, 2008, 08:14:18 AM
If you can still get it (oop in North America), get it! It's the best thing since sliced bread. {Review on Ionarts (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/11/harpsichord-like-rarely-ever.html)}

And while you are at it, get his English and French Suites on Ambroise. Compared to these, the Decca recordings are merely "OK".

Yes, they are somewhat (err.... ridiculously) expensive [for the price of all three 2-CD albums you could get the complete works of Bach in the Brilliant Box), but they are worth it. Even I - and I am quite used to getting CDs for free - have spent the money for the full price on these and never regretted it. The sound blooms on the Ruckers harpsichord like you wouldn't believe (until you've heard it), and Rousset's rubato really brings every piece to live. (Not that Bach wouldn't be 'alive' even in lesser, or more rigid, performances.) The sound on these three discs is unrivaled -- or, if rivaled, only by Blandine Rannou and her very fine, superb Bach on Zig Zag Territories (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000065BSS/nectarandambr-20).

If I had to order these three in terms of preference/impressiveness, I'd opt for: 1.) Klavierbüchlein 2.) French Suites 3.) English Suites.

Thanks Jens. I had already the English & French Suites, and got the Klavierbüchlein meanwhile. :) (I already had his Bach recordings for Decca before he switched to Ambroisie.) Luckily MDT does an offer on Ambroise once in a while, which makes the financial burden a bit lighter. Or an incidental bargain on Amazon.

I second your praises for these recordings. Notwithstanding Rousset's matured interpretations on (arguably) better sounding recordings on Ambroisie (our don actually dislikes the sound), I wouldn't be without the Partitas or Goldbergs on Decca. The Partitas in particular are still unrivalled IMO.

Now we want a complete WTC! :D

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 28, 2008, 11:49:02 AM
Quote from: Que on December 28, 2008, 04:24:07 AM
Don, Premont, how big a deal is the Levin? Nice or key recommendation?


I'd say nice to have.  The big thing about Levin's set is the variety of instrumentation, not the performances (although there's nothing wrong with them).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 28, 2008, 11:56:52 AM
Let me just restate my views on Rousset (Decca vs. Ambroise):

Decca sounds excellent - Ambroise sounds like Rousset is playing in his bathtub.

Decca performances outstanding - Ambroise performances very good (but it's hard to really tell with the swimming sound).

Let me also restate that I prefer recordings on the dry side which is why I also dislike Hantai's WTC Bk. 1 where some important musical lines get swallowed up by the wet acoustics.

As an aside, I also very much like Rannou's performances on Zig Zag.

I thought I had dumped my copies of Rousset/Ambroise, but I still have them.  Will give another try and report back.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on December 28, 2008, 12:10:40 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 28, 2008, 11:56:52 AM
Let me just restate my views on Rousset (Decca vs. Ambroise):
Decca sounds excellent - Ambroise sounds like Rousset is playing in his bathtub.
Let me also restate that I prefer recordings on the dry side
I thought I had dumped my copies of Rousset/Ambroise, but I still have them.  Will give another try and report back.
Well, those are perfectly legitimate preferences, and unless they change, your opinion of these recordings won't much, either. The sound's wet is wet is wet.
Although I would posit that quite a lot of that comes from the instrument (spanking new soundboard, for one) and not from the recording itself. But it surely is the recording to undo Beecham's quip about harpsichords, no? (Or at least if that's how it sounds when... I want in on the action.)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 28, 2008, 03:26:26 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 28, 2008, 12:10:40 PM
Well, those are perfectly legitimate preferences, and unless they change, your opinion of these recordings won't much, either. The sound's wet is wet is wet.

Well, I'm going with the notion that I kept the discs just in case I would find them more appealing in the future.  Since I haven't listened to them for over a year, the future is now.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on December 28, 2008, 04:04:01 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 28, 2008, 08:14:18 AM
If you can still get it (oop in North America), get it! It's the best thing since sliced bread. {Review on Ionarts (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/11/harpsichord-like-rarely-ever.html)}

And while you are at it, get his English and French Suites on Ambroise. Compared to these, the Decca recordings are merely "OK".

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KZ0DJ4KTL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000C8WXZ/nectarandambr-20)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HZRNCPBSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002SKT1U/nectarandambr-20)

Yes, they are somewhat (err.... ridiculously) expensive [for the price of all three 2-CD albums you could get the complete works of Bach in the Brilliant Box), but they are worth it. Even I - and I am quite used to getting CDs for free - have spent the money for the full price on these and never regretted it. The sound blooms on the Ruckers harpsichord like you wouldn't believe (until you've heard it), and Rousset's rubato really brings every piece to live. (Not that Bach wouldn't be 'alive' even in lesser, or more rigid, performances.) The sound on these three discs is unrivaled -- or, if rivaled, only by Blandine Rannou and her very fine, superb Bach on Zig Zag Territories (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000065BSS/nectarandambr-20).

If I had to order these three in terms of preference/impressiveness, I'd opt for: 1.) Klavierbüchlein 2.) French Suites 3.) English Suites.




I feel the same way!  And I also think Rousset's French suites are better than the English.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 29, 2008, 03:03:28 AM
Quote from: Que on December 28, 2008, 04:24:07 AM
Don, Premont, how big a deal is the Levin? Nice or key recommendation?

His playing is very vital, containing nuch rhythmical energy - like say Pinnock (who has not recorded the complete WTC, I compare their playing styles), but Levin is generally a more imaginative player still without being idiosyncratic.The different instruments he uses are of course an attraction. On the other hand they imbue the recording with a disturbing inhomogeneous character when you are listening in one sitting, and modern listeners tend to do so.

Another set on Philips by Daniel Chorzempa shares much the same characteristics (also the use of different instruments), but the playing is even more tense and concentrated.

Both are worthwile, and as I am a near-completist in these matters, they are must-have´s for me. Though I am not sure this applies to you.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 29, 2008, 01:48:49 PM
I gave Rousset's English Suites another go last night.  In order to enjoy the performances, I had to use my trusty equalizer and make many dramatic adjustments.  Still, I was quite weary by the end of it all - the harpsichord sound is so BRIGHT.  I did love some of the fast movements where Rousset is a tower of energy and excitement (such as the last two movements of Partita 1).  It isn't a set I will return to in the near future.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on December 29, 2008, 08:54:00 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 29, 2008, 01:48:49 PM
I gave Rousset's English Suites another go last night.  In order to enjoy the performances, I had to use my trusty equalizer and make many dramatic adjustments.  Still, I was quite weary by the end of it all - the harpsichord sound is so BRIGHT.

Bright?? Huh... now that's a problem I certainly don't have with those recordings. Rich, sated, "wet", blooming... I'd even agree with "a wash of sound". But "bright"? If anything, I find it less bright than many another harpsichord recording. I'd say it might be your speakers, but then all recordings should sound bright to you, which I assume they do not.

(And I won't even touch the point of an equalizer is anathema to hifi... sounds like: "I had to add ketchup to my goose liver foie gras to make it edible".  :) )
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 30, 2008, 09:02:48 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 29, 2008, 08:54:00 PM
Bright?? Huh... now that's a problem I certainly don't have with those recordings. Rich, sated, "wet", blooming... I'd even agree with "a wash of sound". But "bright"? If anything, I find it less bright than many another harpsichord recording. I'd say it might be your speakers, but then all recordings should sound bright to you, which I assume they do not.

(And I won't even touch the point of an equalizer is anathema to hifi... sounds like: "I had to add ketchup to my goose liver foie gras to make it edible".  :) )

Makes little difference which speakers or headphones I use - VERY BRIGHT.

I don't share your disdain for equalizers.  Sometimes, it's the best way to minimize a sound feature that's very annoying.  I know a guy who not only hates equalizers, he also will only keep the audio controls in the "flat" position (stubborn as hell).

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 05, 2009, 06:07:54 PM
In August 2007 the harpsichordist Elizabeth Farr recorded two exceptional Cds (on Naxos 8.570470-71) with Bach music played on a lute-harpsichord reconstructed from Bach's own specifications (by Keith Hill)  :).

Here an interesting interview with Farr and some excerpts from her recordings: http://blog.naxos.com/?s=farr&x=0&y=0

Warmly recommended (both the Cds and the interview)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on January 06, 2009, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 29, 2008, 01:48:49 PM
I gave Rousset's English Suites another go last night.  In order to enjoy the performances, I had to use my trusty equalizer and make many dramatic adjustments.  Still, I was quite weary by the end of it all - the harpsichord sound is so BRIGHT.  I did love some of the fast movements where Rousset is a tower of energy and excitement (such as the last two movements of Partita 1).  It isn't a set I will return to in the near future.

If it sounds bright, I think there is either a problem with your recording (duds do happen) or your sound system.  The sound over my speakers is not bright, whether played with my tube amp or my solid state amp.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on January 08, 2009, 07:01:19 AM
Quote from: Bunny on January 06, 2009, 06:35:23 AM
If it sounds bright, I think there is either a problem with your recording (duds do happen) or your sound system.  The sound over my speakers is not bright, whether played with my tube amp or my solid state amp.

My sound system is fine.  Actually, I have five different sound systems and tried out the Rousset on each of them with fairly consistent results.

Of course, there's always the possibility that my particular copy of the Rousset is a dud.  However, that's not likely because I know of other folks who also have a problem with the sound, whether it's called too bright, too wet, too much reverberation or overly resonant.  I specifically recall a review on Fanfare of the English Suites which commented negatively on the sound characteristics that tended to blur musical detail.

So, I stand by my previous comments and take some solace from knowing that I'm not alone.  The sound on some excellent recordings of the English Suites, such as from Kenneth Gilbert and Alan Curtis, is much more to my liking.







Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on January 08, 2009, 08:03:54 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 08, 2009, 07:01:19 AM
My sound system is fine.  Actually, I have five different sound systems and tried out the Rousset on each of them with fairly consistent results.

Of course, there's always the possibility that my particular copy of the Rousset is a dud.  However, that's not likely because I know of other folks who also have a problem with the sound, whether it's called too bright, too wet, too much reverberation or overly resonant.  I specifically recall a review on Fanfare of the English Suites which commented negatively on the sound characteristics that tended to blur musical detail.

So, I stand by my previous comments...

Yes, I think it's a (dramatic!) difference in defining "bright".
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on January 08, 2009, 08:18:23 AM
Speaking of sound properties, last night I listened to what I'd call about perfect sound in a Delphian disc of Pachelbel organ music played by Matthew Owens (vol. 2) on the Frobenius Organ at Canongate Kirk, Edinburgh.  A stunning disc of exceptional performances.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 08, 2009, 08:55:16 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 05, 2009, 06:07:54 PM
In August 2007 the harpsichordist Elizabeth Farr recorded two exceptional Cds (on Naxos 8.570470-71) with Bach music played on a lute-harpsichord reconstructed from Bach's own specifications (by Keith Hill)  :).

Here an interesting interview with Farr and some excerpts from her recordings: http://blog.naxos.com/?s=farr&x=0&y=0

Antoine - thanks for the recommendation and link; I have several performances of Elizabeth Farr that are superb but I've not heard the one mentioned; however, I recently purchased the disc below of Bach on the Lute-Harpsichord w/ Robert Hill (has been recommended in this thread earlier) - works included HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Works-Lute-Harpsichord-Bachakademie-Hill/dp/B00000JNK3/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1231436286&sr=1-2) -  :)

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Hill-K03%5BHanssler%5D.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on January 08, 2009, 09:48:30 AM
Between the Farr and Hill recordings, I have to go with Hill.  He's more nuanced than Farr, and his recording has richer sound with gorgeous bass response.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 08, 2009, 03:58:11 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 08, 2009, 09:48:30 AM
Between the Farr and Hill recordings, I have to go with Hill.  He's more nuanced than Farr, and his recording has richer sound with gorgeous bass response.

Don - not having heard the Farr (which received some 'negative' comments on Amazon, which seemed to me valid), I must say that the Hill disc is superb for an excellent introduction to this instrument; interestingly, the Lute-Harpsichords used in both of these recordings were built by Keith Hill (an important fact since none of these instruments have survived) - there seems to be a lot of options in 'reconstructing' this 'gut-strunged harpsichord' which impacts on the sound & performance - fascinating and need to explore more recordings; so, hopefully additionally recommendations will follow - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 08, 2009, 06:48:51 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 08, 2009, 09:48:30 AM
Between the Farr and Hill recordings, I have to go with Hill.  He's more nuanced than Farr, and his recording has richer sound with gorgeous bass response.

I have the Works for Lute-Harpsichord by Robert Hill and his recordings Bach as Teacher (partially on lute-harpsichord). And for me Hill and Farr aren't mutually exclusive alternatives, especially when there are so few recordings on lute-harpsichord and the coincidences between the pieces recorded by them are only partial.

But curiously I disagree with your two statements:

Robert Hill is a great performer, but a little bit nervous guy, sometimes on the fast side. The contrary Farr is a very relaxed and detailed performer. IMHO her playing is great here.

On the other hand, both instruments were constructed by Keith Hill, but with advantage for the instrument on Naxos (with two keyboards) because it was made after the Bach's specifications delivered for one of the Lautenwerks in his personal collection. This instrument is rather warm, varied and more lute than theorbo, unlike the instrument used by Robert Hill.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on January 09, 2009, 08:09:50 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 08, 2009, 06:48:51 PM

Robert Hill is a great performer, but a little bit nervous guy, sometimes on the fast side. The contrary Farr is a very relaxed and detailed performer. IMHO her playing is great here.

But there are times when Farr is the quicker performer, and I don't find anything nervous about Hill.  However, you're certainly right that there aren't many recordings available on the lute-harpsichord, so grab them up as they enter the market.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on January 09, 2009, 01:15:44 PM
Don't you all overlook this issue, with one disc dedicated to the harpsichord and the other to the lute-harpsicord, both decidely terrific. 8)

(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092110000.jpg)

954 Fuge B-Dur nach Johann Adam Reinken
964 Sonate d-Moll (nach BWV 1003)
965 Sonate a-Moll nach Johann Adam Reinken
966 Sonate C-Dur nach Johann Adam Reinken
968 Adagio G-Dur (nach BWV 1005/1)
1001 Sonate c-Moll (nach der Sonate I g-Moll)
1004 Partita g-Moll (nach der Partita II d-Moll)
1006,1 Suite E-Dur (nach BWV 1006, gespielt auf dem Cembalo)


Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on February 07, 2009, 05:59:25 AM
This sounds quite good to my ears - anyone tried it? :)

(http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/actueel_summer08/bach_hortus052.jpg)

Sample (http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/stream/aug08_bach_bwv777_B.html) (Quicktime)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: haydnguy on February 07, 2009, 09:04:18 AM
These are my copies of Bach's WTC:


Book 2: Kenneth Gilbert

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Q6EP0puOL._SS500_.jpg)


Book 1: Peter Watchorn

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cd3srKjUL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Frumaster on April 02, 2009, 10:24:08 PM
Anyone know about Richard Egarr on harpsichord?  I've been looking for the WTC and Goldbergs on harpsichord and I ran across these:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ln843R9mL._SS400_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61B2MF8WS3L._SS400_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Das-Wohltemperierte-Clavier-Vol/dp/B000TT1QN2/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238739397&sr=1-8
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Goldberg-Variations-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B000ECXBN2/ref=pd_bxgy_m_img_b

I have been listening to some of the clips, and the same problems I've heard on other harpsichord versions seems to be present here....the rhythm is out of whack!  Is there something about the harpsichord that I don't know?  Yes I know all about how it works, but does it somehow restrict players from keeping good time?  It just sounds like it was all chopped up and pieced together at different speeds.  Other times, things seem to be going along fine, and then its like a beat is skipped or something.  Am I crazy, or just too accustomed to another recording?  Can someone listen to the clips on Amazon and tell me what is going on?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 03, 2009, 05:49:49 AM
Quote from: Frumaster on April 02, 2009, 10:24:08 PM
Anyone know about Richard Egarr on harpsichord?  I've been looking for the WTC and Goldbergs on harpsichord and I ran across these:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ln843R9mL._SS400_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61B2MF8WS3L._SS400_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Das-Wohltemperierte-Clavier-Vol/dp/B000TT1QN2/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238739397&sr=1-8
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Goldberg-Variations-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B000ECXBN2/ref=pd_bxgy_m_img_b

I have been listening to some of the clips, and the same problems I've heard on other harpsichord versions seems to be present here....the rhythm is out of whack!  Is there something about the harpsichord that I don't know?  Yes I know all about how it works, but does it somehow restrict players from keeping good time?  It just sounds like it was all chopped up and pieced together at different speeds.  Other times, things seem to be going along fine, and then its like a beat is skipped or something.  Am I crazy, or just too accustomed to another recording?  Can someone listen to the clips on Amazon and tell me what is going on?

I have both recordings and reviewed the Goldbergs on MusicWeb International.  What you refer to as "rhythm is out of whack" is simply Egarr's use of hesitations and staggering of musical lines.  Egarr, not the harpsichord, is the responsible party.  Put another way, there is nothing about the harpsichord that restricts players from "keeping good time".

I do want to stress that I don't agree that Egarr does not keep good time.  Varying the rhythmic patterns through hesitations and staggering of musical lines is an adventurous way to go that can result in richer and more diverse interpretations, although it also has the potential to damage momentum and sound like a drag on musical progression.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Frumaster on April 03, 2009, 08:42:32 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 03, 2009, 05:49:49 AM
I do want to stress that I don't agree that Egarr does not keep good time.  Varying the rhythmic patterns through hesitations and staggering of musical lines is an adventurous way to go that can result in richer and more diverse interpretations, although it also has the potential to damage momentum and sound like a drag on musical progression.

Thanks, thats helpful.  On further thought, it seems like what I would expect to hear someone playing if they had just been handed the score.  Hope that doesn't sound too harsh  ;D .  I mean, there doesn't seem to be much influence from other recordings to...smoothe it out.  Does Egarr perhaps follow the musical notation so slavishly that it lacks the flow of other interpretations, while maybe being more technically correct? 

Or are the hesitations/staggering done intentionally with some disregard for the score, strictly as a matter of interpretation? I have a hard time with this.  I know Egarr is the conductor of the Ancient Music so and so, so it would seem that his performances would have to be historically accurate, ie, everything referenced to the score.  Then again, maybe his style doesn't have its main foundations in the score, but from a knowledge of how the harpsichord was played in the Baroque era.

Every time I have noticed these timing issues, its a harsichord recording, never piano.  Since the harpsichord is now seen as a period instrument (and we all know how performances with period instruments seek to be historically accurate), maybe the performers sway towards the more 'historically informed' because of the instrument's own status.  This all assumes again that there is some historical reference for playing harsichord in this style, which I have no knowledge of.  Just a groundless theory.  Would anyone care to make sense of my thoughts?  :-\
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 03, 2009, 08:57:03 AM
Quote from: Frumaster on April 02, 2009, 10:24:08 PM
Anyone know about Richard Egarr on harpsichord?  I've been looking for the WTC and Goldbergs on harpsichord and I ran across these:

See page 3 and further of this thread for a previous discussion.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on April 03, 2009, 09:01:29 AM
Quote from: Frumaster on April 03, 2009, 08:42:32 AM
Does Egarr perhaps follow the musical notation so slavishly that it lacks the flow of other interpretations, while maybe being more technically correct?

Egarr can be faulted for mellowness, but not for lack of flow. Would anyone fault Rubinstein for lack of flow in Chopin, because he uses romantic rubato? Neither can anyone fault Egarr for using what is essentially baroque rubato.

Quote
Or are the hesitations/staggering done intentionally with some disregard for the score, strictly as a matter of interpretation? I have a hard time with this.  I know Egarr is the conductor of the Ancient Music so and so, so it would seem that his performances would have to be historically accurate, ie, everything referenced to the score. 

Where do you get that idea? In baroque music, the score was decidedly NOT the source of all information for the performance... that's a newfangled idea of late romanticism and the control-freak composers who needed to fight against "interpretation" instead of encouraging it.

(This is not meant disparagingly about either style... merely pointing out that different music had different needs and demands.)

QuoteThen again, maybe his style doesn't have its main foundations in the score, but from a knowledge of how the harpsichord was played in the Baroque era.

Bingo.

QuoteThis all assumes again that there is some historical reference for playing harsichord in this style, which I have no knowledge of.  Just a groundless theory.  Would anyone care to make sense of my thoughts?  :-\

We have plenty knowledge of harpsichord style through the ages. It is true that some liberties --which are actually historically correct-- were not taken by early HIPsters, because of their focus on the source as sacrosanct (oddly a late romantic notion)... but all in all the differences in personal playing style are greater than those in ideologically-fueled execution.

Got to go hear TanDun/LangLang, thus the rush... I expect frothy responses when I come back. :-)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 03, 2009, 09:34:39 AM
Quote from: Frumaster on April 03, 2009, 08:42:32 AM
Thanks, thats helpful.  On further thought, it seems like what I would expect to hear someone playing if they had just been handed the score.  Hope that doesn't sound too harsh  ;D .  I mean, there doesn't seem to be much influence from other recordings to...smoothe it out.  Does Egarr perhaps follow the musical notation so slavishly that it lacks the flow of other interpretations, while maybe being more technically correct? 

Or are the hesitations/staggering done intentionally with some disregard for the score, strictly as a matter of interpretation? I have a hard time with this.  I know Egarr is the conductor of the Ancient Music so and so, so it would seem that his performances would have to be historically accurate, ie, everything referenced to the score.  Then again, maybe his style doesn't have its main foundations in the score, but from a knowledge of how the harpsichord was played in the Baroque era.

Every time I have noticed these timing issues, its a harsichord recording, never piano.  Since the harpsichord is now seen as a period instrument (and we all know how performances with period instruments seek to be historically accurate), maybe the performers sway towards the more 'historically informed' because of the instrument's own status.  This all assumes again that there is some historical reference for playing harsichord in this style, which I have no knowledge of.  Just a groundless theory.  Would anyone care to make sense of my thoughts?  :-\

It's an interpretive style, and Egarr is only one of many to use it.  Never piano?  That's not the case, although it's used more by harpsichordists.  In her recent Goldbergs, Dinnerstein on Telarc uses rubato and hesitations liberally.

When I first encountered hesitations/staggering, I didn't think well of them.  Over time, I've come to prefer them.  Of course, that's just personal preference, but do try to give it some time to really sink in.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Frumaster on April 03, 2009, 09:47:30 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 03, 2009, 09:01:29 AM
Egarr can be faulted for mellowness, but not for lack of flow. Would anyone fault Rubinstein for lack of flow in Chopin, because he uses romantic rubato? Neither can anyone fault Egarr for using what is essentially baroque rubato.

We have plenty knowledge of harpsichord style through the ages. It is true that some liberties --which are actually historically correct-- were not taken by early HIPsters, because of their focus on the source as sacrosanct (oddly a late romantic notion)... but all in all the differences in personal playing style are greater than those in ideologically-fueled execution.

Very good, makes perfect sense now.  So a harpsichord performance of a baroque-era piece is likely to be more historically correct, not just because of the harpsichord.  What I'm getting at is that musicians who choose the harpsichord likely have more of a historical context for the music (hence their instrumental choice to begin with) that affects interpretation.  True or false?  It would explain why I have yet to experience this type of playing of Baroque music on the piano, and why I have heard it several times on the harsichord. 

Edit:  cool, I didn't know this area existed.  thanks for moving us

Edit #2  :): I feel dumb for asking now!  I've read up to page 6 here and there's tons of great info on these recordings. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on April 03, 2009, 01:35:07 PM
Quote from: Frumaster on April 03, 2009, 09:47:30 AM


Very good, makes perfect sense now.  So a harpsichord performance of a baroque-era piece is likely to be more historically correct, not just because of the harpsichord.

Not necessarily. If you play on the harpsichord like it's a sawing machine (Keith Jarret, anyone? [although I still like his unidiomatic G-Bergs]), it could be said to be further from the baroquely-correct spirit than a sensitive, free-wheeling but informed performance on the piano (Hewitt). Also Landowska, credited though she must be with bringing something resembling a harpsichord back to the stage, limelight, and Bach, isn't more baroque than Murray Perahia.

It is certainly true that harpsichordists by-and-large have found themselves more thoroughly involved with baroque works, simply because that's a natural focus if you play that instrument... whereas many pianists of old merely took these keyboard pieces in because no one else would (on the concert stage), treating them in a manner that can't be considered baroque. Worse yet those who, although playing the piano, excised the freer airs of "romantic" interpretations thinking they'd be conforming to the original spirit... but instead excised it.

"Unfortunately" the most egregious example of this is also musically one of the most satisfying: Glenn Gould... whose Bach, precisely because of the occasional "harpsichord emulation" is as far from baroque practice as can be. Yet, all of his Bach (except his ghastly Toccatas which he evidently did not like or care to perform well) is somewhere between good, marvelous, and wondrous. Showing that historical correctness, for its many virtues, has little or nothing to do with the musical successfulness. (At least in Bach or Scarlatti... whose music lends itself very, very well to transcription for piano.)

It gets tricky with players trying to do with a piano what could and would have been done with a harpsichord... the former simply can't pull off the same amount of embellishments... and switching registers on the piano isn't the same as doing so on a two-manual keyboard...

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 03, 2009, 02:30:48 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 03, 2009, 01:35:07 PM

"Unfortunately" the most egregious example of this is also musically one of the most satisfying: Glenn Gould... whose Bach, precisely because of the occasional "harpsichord emulation" is as far from baroque practice as can be. Yet, all of his Bach (except his ghastly Toccatas which he evidently did not like or care to perform well) is somewhere between good, marvelous, and wondrous. Showing that historical correctness, for its many virtues, has little or nothing to do with the musical successfulness. (At least in Bach or Scarlatti... whose music lends itself very, very well to transcription for piano.)

Although Gould's Toccatas aren't his best work, I do love his adagios in those works.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 03, 2009, 03:09:32 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 03, 2009, 01:35:07 PM
It is certainly true that harpsichordists by-and-large have found themselves more thoroughly involved with baroque works, simply because that's a natural focus if you play that instrument...

It is rather the other way round, that a keen interest in baroque keyboard music leads to an interest in the appropriate instruments. In the same way as a keen interest in baroque organ music does not lead to a primary interest in romantic organs but rather to an interest in baroque or at least neo-baroque organs.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: purephase on April 04, 2009, 08:15:51 AM
Has anyone heard Leonhardt's second recording of the Art of the Fugue?  I've read some absolute raves about it, but it looks like it is unfortunately out of print.  I guess Leonhardt played with a period instrument for this version, as opposed to the modern harpsichord he used on the more widely available performance from the 50s.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419NDZ2AVJL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 04, 2009, 08:19:08 AM
Quote from: purephase on April 04, 2009, 08:15:51 AM
Has anyone heard Leonhardt's second recording of the Art of the Fugue?  I've read some absolute raves about it, but it looks like it is unfortunately out of print.  I guess Leonhardt played with a period instrument for this version, as opposed to the modern harpsichord he used on the more widely available performance from the 50s.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419NDZ2AVJL._SS400_.jpg)

Right, and my preferred version. Scholarship and passion in a most fortunate synthesis.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on April 04, 2009, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: James on April 04, 2009, 03:11:48 AM
I LOVE Gould's recording of the Toccatas... I would recommend them to anyone. ..."the music transcends the instrument".

James, you are--without exaggeration--the first person that I've ever heard that from. Even my Gould worshiping colleague (with a gorgeous first print photograph of Gould above his writing desk) won't stick up for them. :-)

I'm glad you like them, since you have them... but "recommend them to anyone"?? Tastes differ, naturally, but approach with curiosity but caution, I'd say. (And I'd say that--I hope--also about many recordings that I happen to love but know well enough would not necessarily be to everyone's taste.)
I think Gould's Toccatas are roughly on his level with the Mozart sonatas.  ;D

And as to your second point: Yes. Of course. But you still have to play it well.

P.S. (Re: below)

1.) I have listened to them, and not just once, and their still ghastly.
2.) Mozart isn't Bach? Shocking revelation.
3.) Comments at the Mozart-Uck-Yawn level don't generally help anyone's
credibility. Even if his music isn't to one's taste, that's the real
foolishness...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on April 04, 2009, 02:23:37 PM
Quote from: James on April 04, 2009, 02:14:58 PM
Just to let you know, your words (& listening skills) don't carry much weight to with me, so it doesn't matter...

I'm not trying to convince you not to like those recording, you know.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 05, 2009, 05:44:03 AM
AFAIK this recording has not been mentioned here before:

J.S. Bach - Goldberg Variations

Gwendolyn Toth

Lautenwerk by Willard Martin, 1988
Disposition: 8' gut, 8' gut (two plucking positions), 4' brass, buff stop
Two manual with handstops; leather and quill pectra
Pitch: A=370
18th century temperament ordinaire

Total playing recording 83:06

Recorded June 2000 at St. James Chapel, Cathedral of St. John the Divine, New York City.

Zefiro Recordings ZR 103, 2003 

This recording is not probably for all tastes; but the sound of the instrument is worth of a try. For the moment, it has the most charming Variatio 6 that I have ever listened to:

 
http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=f5da5b0


Link to the Artek site:

http://www.artekearlymusic.org/goldberg_variations.html

P.S.: On the Artek site you can read a review by our Bulldog  ;).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 05, 2009, 08:59:18 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 05, 2009, 05:44:03 AM
AFAIK this recording has not been mentioned here before:

J.S. Bach - Goldberg Variations w/ Gwendolyn Toth on a Lautenwerk by Willard Martin, 1988

P.S.: On the Artek site you can read a review by our Bulldog  ;).

Antoine - thanks for mentioning the recording above on the Lautenwerk w/ Toth - read the review by Don on MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/dec03/Bach_Goldberg_Toth.htm) - he had a few 'negative' comments but almost gave the set a 'must buy' (not quite) - hope he sees these posts & makes some further comments to help in a purchasing decision?

I'm planning to add this recording to my 'wish list' (although I have other piano & harpsichord discs of these works) mainly because of a 'new' interest in the lute harpsichord, just have a few recordings so far but really enjoy the 'sound' of this instrument; for those interested, this is a 2-CD offering 'clocking in' at just over 80 mins - hope that the set is in a 'slim-line' package - not sure why this could not have been 'squeezed' onto just one disc?

BTW - have not checked but are there any other recordings of these works on the lute harpsichord for comparision & consideration?  Dave  :)

P.S. for those who have not visited the church mentioned in NYC, the restoration has been completed, I believe - a glorious experience!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 05, 2009, 09:08:01 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 05, 2009, 08:59:18 AM
Antoine - thanks for mentioning the recording above on the Lautenwerk w/ Toth - read the review by Don on MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/dec03/Bach_Goldberg_Toth.htm) - he had a few 'negative' comments but almost gave the set a 'must buy' (not quite) - hope he sees these posts & makes some further comments to help in a purchasing decision?

The only thing I'd add is that the Toth is an excellent acquisition for those who already have at least a few other versions on hand.

I should also mention that Toth has another great disc to offer - Scheidemann organ music on the same label.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 05, 2009, 10:34:21 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 05, 2009, 05:44:03 AM
J.S. Bach - Goldberg Variations

Gwendolyn Toth

This recording is not probably for all tastes; but the sound of the instrument is worth of a try.
 

Thanks for the recommendation, I have ordered it already. :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 05, 2009, 10:37:43 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 05, 2009, 09:08:01 AM
The only thing I'd add is that the Toth is an excellent acquisition for those who already have at least a few other versions on hand.

But what about the one who already have >150 versions at hand?? - I am not that one, of course. ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on April 05, 2009, 10:40:21 AM
Quote from: premont on April 05, 2009, 10:37:43 AM
But what about the one who already have >150 versions at hand?? - I am not that one, of course. ;D

But are there 150 versions of Goldberg Variations performed on harpsichord out there?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 05, 2009, 11:49:17 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 05, 2009, 10:40:21 AM
 

But are there 150 versions of Goldberg Variations performed on harpsichord out there?

No, that is including the piano versions. Another "proof" that I do not refer to myself.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 05, 2009, 06:31:53 PM
Quote from: premont on April 05, 2009, 10:37:43 AM
But what about the one who already have >150 versions at hand?? - I am not that one, of course. ;D

I think the person with over 150 Goldbergs is very glad to have the distinctive Toth release. :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 06, 2009, 03:04:20 PM
Finally, here was a thread I was interested in seeing near the top on a regular basis.  But it was just for a few days.  Why was it put in the hallowed status and then taken away?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on April 06, 2009, 04:53:42 PM
Quote from: premont on April 05, 2009, 11:49:17 AM
No, that is including the piano versions. Another "proof" that I do not refer to myself.

But are there 150 versions of Goldberg Variations out there regardless of the instruments used in the perfomance?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 06, 2009, 08:07:23 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 05, 2009, 08:59:18 AM
this is a 2-CD offering 'clocking in' at just over 80 mins - hope that the set is in a 'slim-line' package - not sure why this could not have been 'squeezed' onto just one disc?

BTW - have not checked but are there any other recordings of these works on the lute harpsichord for comparision & consideration?  Dave  :)

P.S. for those who have not visited the church mentioned in NYC, the restoration has been completed, I believe - a glorious experience!

Hi, Dave.

It's a double-cd, but in a regular jewel case.

I don't know other recordings on lute-harpsichord; just on clavichord, a different instrument, but also much-loved by Bach. Some time ago I recommended a real double-cd (i.e., two complete versions) by Jaroslav Tuma: the first one played on clavichord(s) and the other one on harpsichord. "All three instruments used in the recording were built by Martin Kather in Hamburg. An instrument built in 2004 and based on an original of 1761 by David Tannenberg, settled in Pennsylvania, was chosen as the lower manual for the pair of clavichords. On it stood a small instrument that is a copy (2002) of a clavichord of 1787 built by Christian Gottlob Hubert of Ansbach. The two-manual harpsichord completed in 2004 is a copy of a model by François Etienne Blanchet of 1733 in the depositary of the Château de Thoiry" (http://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=f10136en&site=en). CD1 (75:48); CD 2 (78:54).

The duration of the Toth's record is exactly 83:06 mins. Believe on me, Dave, you need these beautiful discs  ;D.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 07, 2009, 05:55:52 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 06, 2009, 04:53:42 PM
 

But are there 150 versions of Goldberg Variations out there regardless of the instruments used in the perfomance?

Yes, and still more I think. Ask Don, he knows.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 07, 2009, 05:59:07 AM
Quote from: premont on April 07, 2009, 05:55:52 AM
Yes, and still more I think. Ask Don, he knows.

Well, I have about 150 versions of the Goldbergs, and I know that there are plenty I don't own.  ArkivMusic lists 149 entries, and they don't include some obscure versions and those that are now oop.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dr. Dread on April 07, 2009, 06:01:51 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 07, 2009, 05:59:07 AM
Well, I have about 150 versions of the Goldbergs, and I know that there are plenty I don't own.  ArkivMusic lists 149 entries, and they don't include some obscure versions and those that are now oop.

You should change your forum name to "Goldberg".

Or not. :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 07, 2009, 08:12:04 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on April 07, 2009, 06:01:51 AM
You should change your forum name to "Goldberg".

Or not. :)

Love the work, not the name.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 07, 2009, 06:03:11 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 06, 2009, 08:07:23 PM

It's a double-cd, but in a regular jewel case.................................

The duration of the Toth's record is exactly 83:06 mins. Believe on me, Dave, you need these beautiful discs  ;D.

Antoine - thanks for the comments - storage is a BIG problem for me, so 2 discs in a regular jewel box is a relief; plus, I really have fallen in love w/ this instrument, i.e. the lute harpsichord( for those just reading this post) - this recording is on my 'wish list' and will likely be on my next order - thanks for the support from you & Don  -  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on April 07, 2009, 06:07:48 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 07, 2009, 05:59:07 AM
Well, I have about 150 versions of the Goldbergs, and I know that there are plenty I don't own.  ArkivMusic lists 149 entries, and they don't include some obscure versions and those that are now oop.

I have 13 versions but doubt I will want to go over 20. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 07, 2009, 09:34:55 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 07, 2009, 06:07:48 PM
I have 13 versions but doubt I will want to go over 20. 

You seem to have the future mapped out.  I don't know how many versions I'll be acquiring in the future; I just get the ones I'm interested in and let the inventory expand in a natural manner.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2009, 07:51:33 AM
Received on Monday. Probably a must-have for "completists". Is there anyone here?  0:)

Johann Sebastian Bach
The Universal Musician
Masterworks for Clavichord

Derek Adlam
Clavichord

http://www.guildmusic.com/catalog/gui7232z.htm

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 10, 2009, 09:38:46 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2009, 07:51:33 AM
Probably a must-have for "completists". Is there anyone here?  0:)

Johann Sebastian Bach
The Universal Musician
Masterworks for Clavichord

Derek Adlam
Clavichord

As to me, I am not a completist in the strict sense of the word but rather a discerning selectivist.

I own several recordings of the works on this CD already played upon harpsichord and lute harpsichord (and some of them even on piano  :-[ ), and I do not know, if I really want a clavichord recording of all Bachs harpsichord works. BTW I own the Adlam recording (harpsichord) of the Partitas, and find him outstanding in these, so this clavichord CD might be worth owning.

Maybe you can report a bit more explicit upon it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 10, 2009, 09:40:29 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2009, 07:51:33 AM
Received on Monday. Probably a must-have for "completists". Is there anyone here?  0:)

Johann Sebastian Bach
The Universal Musician
Masterworks for Clavichord

Derek Adlam
Clavichord

http://www.guildmusic.com/catalog/gui7232z.htm

The instrument sounds convincing, which is certainly not always the case in clavichord recordings, the playing on first hearing maybe less so? Will be looking forward to your impressions. :)

[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.guildmusic.com/mpeg2/7232_1.mp3[/mp3]
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.guildmusic.com/mpeg2/7232_21.mp3[/mp3]

Q

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2009, 11:27:46 AM
Quote from: premont on April 10, 2009, 09:38:46 AM
but rather a discerning selectivist.

Nice description, premont; excepting, I suppose, the Beethoven's piano sonatas and the Bach's organ works  ;). Otherwise, that would be an excessively broad description  ;D.

Quote from: premont on April 10, 2009, 09:38:46 AM
Maybe you can report a bit more explicit upon it.

I have just listened to the entire CD two times. But the impression has really not been devastating (that explains my reference to "completists", as sometimes I am).

It is correctly played and very, very well recorded; but the playing is IMO a little bit dry, lacking that uplifting quality so characteristic in Bach. But those are just first impressions...  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2009, 11:33:38 AM
Quote from: Que on April 10, 2009, 09:40:29 AM
The instrument sounds convincing, which is certainly not always the case in clavichord recordings, the playing on first hearing maybe less so? Will be looking forward to your impressions. :)

[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.guildmusic.com/mpeg2/7232_1.mp3[/mp3]
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.guildmusic.com/mpeg2/7232_21.mp3[/mp3]

Q



Probably, you are right, Que. But there are so few recordings devoted to this beautiful instrument ...  :(
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 10, 2009, 11:42:28 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2009, 11:27:46 AM
Nice description, premont; excepting, I suppose, the Beethoven's piano sonatas and the Bach's organ works  ;). Otherwise, that would be an excessively broad description  ;D.

Yes, and excepting a lot of other works.
E.g.:

Cello suites (Bach - of course) ca 45 sets

Beethoven string quartets  24 sets


But I am certainly discerning concerning which works I decide to select.   0:)


Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2009, 11:27:46 AM
It is correctly played and very, very well recorded; but the playing is IMO a little bit dry, lacking that uplifting quality so characteristic in Bach. But those are just first impressions...  :)

But let us know if second (or third) listenings change you impressions.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 12, 2009, 01:02:52 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2009, 11:33:38 AM
Probably, you are right, Que. But there are so few recordings devoted to this beautiful instrument ...  :(

What about the disc with the Inventionen by Cristiano Holz that I posted earlier (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.msg271622.html#msg271622)?
Sounded good enough to me to put on my wish list.  :) (Does anyone like Meissen porcelain? ;D)

(http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/actueel_summer08/bach_hortus052.jpg)
Sample (http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/stream/aug08_bach_bwv777_B.html) (Quicktime) Many more (shorter) samples (http://www.disquesoffice.ch/fr/cd/classique/instrumental/Inventions-et-Sinfonies-150026.html)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 12, 2009, 09:24:20 AM
Quote from: Que on April 12, 2009, 01:02:52 AM
What about the disc with the Inventionen by Cristiano Holz that I posted earlier (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.msg271622.html#msg271622)?
Sounded good enough to me to put on my wish list.  :) (Does anyone like Meissen porcelain? ;D)

(http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/actueel_summer08/bach_hortus052.jpg)
Sample (http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/stream/aug08_bach_bwv777_B.html) (Quicktime) Many more (shorter) samples (http://www.disquesoffice.ch/fr/cd/classique/instrumental/Inventions-et-Sinfonies-150026.html)

Q

Sure, it looks attractive, Que.

I was looking for that CD on Internet in the past weeks, but I didn't find it on the usual online-stores.

That seemed to be the moment to purchase that CD because I bought, forgetting my Spartan habits ;D, a lot of discs -included in my wish list during some months- on Amazon, CD Universe and JPC, all of them almost at the same time. As I am in Chile shipping and handling charges are especially important issues.

Can I ask where you saw that CD, Que?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 12, 2009, 11:09:19 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 12, 2009, 09:24:20 AM

Can I ask where you saw that CD, Que?


Good question! :) I saw it on a site of a small local (Dutch) store (Preludeklassiekemuziek (http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/) - the CD is under previous recommendations, Summer 2008) which has always very interesting and rare recordings on offer, with focus on Early Music and Baroque and HIP recordings. So just the thing for me! :) (and you 8)). They do international orders, though shipping is at real cost and Dutch postal rates for international deliveries at pretty steep. ::) But I would keep an eye on that site even just for the information offered.


EDIT: Just found the Éditions Hortus website (//http://), the Hortus catalogue looks interesting!
The label turns out to be French, I checked Fnac: et voilà (http://musique.fnac.com/a2273931/Jean-Sebastien-Bach-Inventions-et-symphonies-CD-album?Mn=-1&Ra=-29&To=0&Nu=1&Fr=0)! :) You can also get via Musicweb (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Hortus/index.htm), and they have even reviewed (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Mar09/Bach_Inventions_Hortus052.htm) it, though not favourably... ::)

BTW Are you aware of this clavichord recordings list (http://www.clavichord.info/engl/cdeng.htm)? :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 13, 2009, 06:21:04 AM
Our resident connoisseur in Bach vn S&P, Premont, mentioned some time ago that Leonhardt recorded his own harpsichord arrangements of these pieces and that the recordings are quite worthy.  I have since found and acquired the following Japan BMG release (2CD set):

(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TMCN8709L._SS500_.jpg)
BVCD 38105-06

These were recorded in 1974 and 1985 respectively and on different instruments (Dowd and Blanchet copies). BWV 1003 was not arranged/recorded because an authentic 18th century arrangement of that suite (from JS himself or his students) already exists.  Questions: 1) Have there been other recordings of these arrangements, whether by Leonhardt himself or other harpsichordists?  2) Were these arrangements by Leonhardt ever published in print?


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 13, 2009, 12:59:03 PM
There are quite a bunch of recordings of transcriptions of the violin solos for harpsichord, but I have never seen other transcriptions for harpsichord of the cello suites than Leonhardt´s. And he only recorded Suite 4,5 & 6.

As to the Violin solo works:

Leonhardt made another recording of his own transcription of Sonata 3 (first movement Adagio transcribed by Bach) along with a recording of Bach´s own transcription of Sonata 2. (Telefunken 1960es).

So did Andreas Staier (Telefunken 1998).

Robert Hill recorded for Haenssler (late 1990es) his own transcription of Sonata 1 and Partita 2, coupled with Bach´s transcription of Sonata 2 , the Adagio from Sonata 3 and Partita 3, and Bach´s Reinken transcriptions (2CD) using luteharpsichord for some of the pieces.

Bob van Asperen has recorded for Aeolus his own transcriptions of Sonata 3 (Adagio again transcribed by Bach) and Partita 3 along with Bach´s transcription of Sonata 2 and Asperens transcription of the Chaconne from Suite 2.

Winsome Evans has recorded for Celestial Harmonies (2007) her own transcriptions of all the Sonatas and Suites. Released together with scores to the transcriptions.

From the top of my head I also recall that Yves Recksteiner has recorded his own transcription of Sonata 1 and the Chaconne from Partita 2 for Alpha.

Wonder if I forgot some?

The only CD of the above mentioned CDs I do not own is van Asperens. All the others can safely be recommended.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 13, 2009, 01:15:46 PM
Thank you, premont, for the information provided above.  Now I see there will be other recordings to get!  I have the Staier and the Rechsteiner, and the above Leonhardt at the moment. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 13, 2009, 08:07:43 PM
Quote from: Que on April 12, 2009, 11:09:19 PM

Good question! :) I saw it on a site of a small local (Dutch) store (Preludeklassiekemuziek (http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/) - the CD is under previous recommendations, Summer 2008) which has always very interesting and rare recordings on offer, with focus on Early Music and Baroque and HIP recordings. So just the thing for me! :) (and you 8)). They do international orders, though shipping is at real cost and Dutch postal rates for international deliveries at pretty steep. ::) But I would keep an eye on that site even just for the information offered.

I knew this small store because in the past I was interested in some recordings of the Flora label (Gamba Sonatas, some Mozart, some Haydn), after I found by chance the Sonatas and Partitas played by François Fernandez, in a local store (not specialized in Classical music at all!). And "Prelude" would seem to be the only store on the web delivering that label.  BTW, Flora should win the prize to the worst site on the web:

http://www.kelys.org/flora/


Quote from: Que on April 12, 2009, 11:09:19 PM


BTW Are you aware of this clavichord recordings list (http://www.clavichord.info/engl/cdeng.htm)? :)

Q

Yes, I knew that site. I have spent some hours wandering on its very informative links, photos, audio snippets, etc.

Finally, Que, I'm not the Jaroslav Tůma agent  ;D, but I will recall again his beautiful recording of the Inventions, Sinfonias and Duets BWV 772-805 played on a clavichord by J. Ch. G. Schiedmayer (1789), properly restored. Although his Goldbergs and Well-Tempered Clavier are great too, all of them superbly recorded.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 13, 2009, 10:13:43 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 13, 2009, 08:07:43 PM

Finally, Que, I'm not the Jaroslav Tůma agent  ;D, but I will recall again his beautiful recording of the Inventions, Sinfonias and Duets BWV 772-805 played on a clavichord by J. Ch. G. Schiedmayer (1789), properly restored. Although his Goldbergs and Well-Tempered Clavier are great too, all of them superbly recorded.


I have been pondering about Tůma. :) I'd really like a WTC on clavichord (and other works), but not just because of the instrument - it has to be a musically a top performance as well. I lost interest in Richard Troeger for instance, after trying his take on the Inventionen (Lyrichord). How would you rate Tůma? For some reason I find clavichord performances very hard to judge on the basis of short samples... :-\

Q

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on April 13, 2009, 11:07:03 PM
Quote from: Que on April 13, 2009, 10:13:43 PM
How would you rate Tůma? For some reason I find clavichord performances very hard to judge on the basis of short samples... :-\

Q

You mean in sound quality?  Yes that's true - the instrument is too seldom heard for one to have a very solid idea of how it should sound.  I bought Tůma's WTC 1 long time ago out of a sheer determination to hear this music on a clavichord.  I haven't heard the recording for quite some time now, but remember it being on the moderated, understated side interpretively.  The clavichord he uses sounds stable and robust though, unlike the one used by Miklos Spanyi for his CPE Bach solo project.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 14, 2009, 05:06:34 AM
Quote from: Que on April 13, 2009, 10:13:43 PM
I have been pondering about Tůma. :) I'd really like a WTC on clavichord (and other works), but not just because of the instrument - it has to be a musically a top performance as well. I lost interest in Richard Troeger for instance, after trying his take on the Inventionen (Lyrichord). How would you rate Tůma? For some reason I find clavichord performances very hard to judge on the basis of short samples... :-\

Q



I agree with your criteria, Que.

Firstly, I think the clavichord's sonority is very difficult to capture in any recording, even more in compressed formats. But the sound quality of the Tůma's instruments/recording is never an argument against him. The Inventions, the Goldbergs and the WTC are outstandingly well-recorded. A true pleasure for the ear. 

IMO Tůma and Troeger are performers placed on different levels. I like Tůma as a first- rate performer and not only because of the instrument. IMO he exceeds Troeger technically, but also in depth and understanding of these works. Tůma has a personal insight that really works out in these pieces; on the other hand, some Troeger's decisions seem arbitrary, especially when the tempi are concerned.

Just one prevention: Tůma isn't on the fast side at least in these works and playing the clavichord (I don't know his work like an organist). That explains, for example, this review:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=5752

about the first incarnation of the WTC Book I. It's funny because, step by step, I think the opposite expressed by Jed Distler.

:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 15, 2009, 02:33:11 PM
I've been listening quite a lot in the past couple of months to Francesco Cera's set of the French Suites on the ARTS label.  He uses much rubato and very slow tempos for the Allemande and Sarabande movements.  I didn't care for it much at first, but the performances have grown on me.  Rhythmic hesitations and staggering of musical lines can be entirely compelling.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: nut-job on April 15, 2009, 02:44:19 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 07, 2009, 05:59:07 AM
Well, I have about 150 versions of the Goldbergs
(http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 16, 2009, 05:47:57 AM
Quote from: nut-job on April 15, 2009, 02:44:19 PM
  (http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)

It averages out to only 7 Goldbergs per year.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: nut-job on April 16, 2009, 06:06:03 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 16, 2009, 05:47:57 AM
It averages out to only 7 Goldbergs per year.

Oh, every 52 days, you buy a new recording of the Goldberg variations.  It sounds very sensible when you put it that way.   ;D

On the other hand, it is not my policy to divulge how many recordings of Bruckner Symphony #8 I have.   0:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 18, 2009, 02:41:23 AM
Recently acquired and listened to:

Bach: Goldberg variations
Gwendolyn Toth, lute-harpsichord


Something of a disappointment. IMO an earthbound, rather mechanical performance. The instrument sounding dry and uninteresting, like a harpsichord in need of repair. I have heard lute-stops of several harpsichords sounding much better than this, not to talk about other lute harpsichords (the one Robert Hill uses in his recordings for Hänssler e.g.).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 18, 2009, 03:49:48 PM
Quote from: premont on April 18, 2009, 02:41:23 AM
Recently acquired and listened to:

Bach: Goldberg variations
Gwendolyn Toth, lute-harpsichord


Something of a disappointment. IMO an earthbound, rather mechanical performance. The instrument sounding dry and uninteresting, like a harpsichord in need of repair. I have heard lute-stops of several harpsichords sounding much better than this, not to talk about other lute harpsichords (the one Robert Hill uses in his recordings for Hänssler e.g.).

I regret that you have not enjoyed this recording, Premont.

I usually agree with your advices and opinions on recordings and performers. Therefore, I was surprised this morning when I did read your last message. Your auctoritas in these issues obliged me to hear this recording again. And I do it two times (as an exercise I used two different CD players and the second time my headphones Sennheiser).

After this listening in the morning my opinion has not changed. The instrument sounds gorgeous to me and the playing is, at least, very interesting. And I am not alone because the great majority of people who writes about these weird things (three or four critics) have praised this CD in different ways:

http://www.artekearlymusic.org/goldberg_reviews.html

Even the cautious (and highly detailed) Don's review on MusicWeb International praises the beautiful tone of the instrument: "The lautenwerk built by Willard Martin has an 8-foot gut with two plucking positions, 4-foot brass, 2 manuals with handstops, and a pitch of A = 370. Be assured that this instrument has a gorgeous tone of sublime intimacy that offers performers an excellent opportunity to give their audiences a distinctive and compelling set of performances".

IMO "the problem" with the Toth's recording, if any, is the point of view adopted by her: Because she devotes herself to the sonorities of the instrument. And this is very clear in several variations, in which she seems mesmerized by the sound itself: "Toth takes the main road with an unswerving dedication and never deviates from it. In a couple of the more poignant variations, she actually constricts the music through a mechanical sounding and rigid rhythmic flow".  IMO the mechanical playing that you (and other, me too) have noticed in some pieces is totally intended by her and not a fault caused by superficiality. For me virtuosity and erudition are only interesting like games, and sometimes Toth plays these pieces like if she was playing a game, like if was saying: "Hey! Look what I do" (for instance, variations 6 and 14, just to mention two cases). IMO this brings a huge sense of joy and innocence (like kids playing!) to the discs. But if you don't feel that, obviously you will not enjoy them  :(.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 18, 2009, 04:44:23 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 18, 2009, 03:49:48 PM
I regret that you have not enjoyed this recording, Premont....................

I usually agree with your advices and opinions on recordings and performers. Therefore, I was surprised this morning when I did read your last message.

Even the cautious (and highly detailed) Don's review on MusicWeb International praises the beautiful tone of the instrument: "The lautenwerk built by Willard Martin has an 8-foot gut with two plucking positions, 4-foot brass, 2 manuals with handstops, and a pitch of A = 370. Be assured that this instrument has a gorgeous tone of sublime intimacy that offers performers an excellent opportunity to give their audiences a distinctive and compelling set of performances".....................

Antoine - enjoyed your comments (some of which quoted above) - I also recently acquired the CD shown below - I just enjoy this 'gut-strung' harpsichord, its history, and the joy that JS Bach obviously felt about the lautenwerk!  I've listened to this disc now twice, and do enjoy, but am not 'thrilled' - now I own both piano & standard harpsichord versions of this work; unfortunately, nothing to compare on this particular instrument (unless I'm mistaken?) - I'm definitely going to keep this performance for its uniqueness.

Now another question that I'm curious about and woud appreciate your opinion refers to Don's review in which he stated that the Aria, played at the beginning and end of the 2-CD set sounded differently; I acutually played these 'back to back' and did not appreciate a VAST difference (although my 'ears' are not that distinguishing) - at any rate, this recording seems to be the only one on this instrument, and the performance is certainly quite acceptable IMHO - Dave  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/512559499_hEpce-M.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 19, 2009, 11:09:57 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 18, 2009, 03:49:48 PM

IMO "the problem" with the Toth's recording, if any, is the point of view adopted by her: Because she devotes herself to the sonorities of the instrument. And this is very clear in several variations, in which she seems mesmerized by the sound itself: "Toth takes the main road with an unswerving dedication and never deviates from it. In a couple of the more poignant variations, she actually constricts the music through a mechanical sounding and rigid rhythmic flow".  IMO the mechanical playing that you (and other, me too) have noticed in some pieces is totally intended by her and not a fault caused by superficiality. For me virtuosity and erudition are only interesting like games, and sometimes Toth plays these pieces like if she was playing a game, like if was saying: "Hey! Look what I do" (for instance, variations 6 and 14, just to mention two cases). IMO this brings a huge sense of joy and innocence (like kids playing!) to the discs. But if you don't feel that, obviously you will not enjoy them  :(.

Thanks for your elaborate answer. My disappointment should be seen in the light of the many positive reviews of the recording.

In principle I do not want to detract from your listening experience by being too negative. So I listened to Toth once again, with your words in my mind.

But first I do not like the sound her particular instrument. It is thin and colourless compared to other lute-harpsichord recordings I know. On the other hand there is as usual some reverbation, probably due to the lack of dampers. This reverbation is sufficient to blur any attempts of articulation (in fast tempo the most), and first I thought that this was the main reason why I disliked it, as it results in an uniform legato touch apearance all through. Therefore I listened to some of the other Bach-recordings I own with lute-harpsichord (Robert Hill, Christiane Jaccottet, Michele Barchi and Elisabeth Farr), and realized, that even if their instruments probably also lack dampers resulting in an identical deleterious effect upon articulation, all their interpretations were much more engaging and expressive. Why? Because they compensate for the lack of articulation with a vivid and expressive agogic, whereas the playing of Toth is stiff and inflexible except for a few slow moments like the Aria proper and Var.XXV. And I am sure that the other harpsichordists are just as fascinated by the sound of their instruments as Toth. This is about lots of micro-hesitations contra mechanical playing.

Jaccottet´s performance upon lute-harpsichord of some of the movements from Bach´s suite BWV 995 may serve as an example of vivid and expressive agogics

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jdnhqmc3tjg/suite c-moll prelude.wma

http://www.mediafire.com/file/meumzjv2znw/suite c-moll sarabande.wma

http://www.mediafire.com/file/dniwie2jjjj/suite c-moll gavotte.wma
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 19, 2009, 03:21:11 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 18, 2009, 04:44:23 PM

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/512559499_hEpce-M.jpg)


Antoine, Don & Premont - if you're reading this post - the recording above seems to be rather controversial - I'm just getting into the lute harpsichord and must say that the 'small handful' that I own currently are a more pleasant listen than the Goldbergs by Toth - guess that I'm favoring Premont's comments @ the moment about this recording; but, will anyone else record these works on this instrument?  Is this a disc worth saving for historic interest?  Just letting some thoughts in my head coming out in the typing -  ;) :D   Dave
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 19, 2009, 04:03:28 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 19, 2009, 03:21:11 PM
Antoine, Don & Premont - if you're reading this post - the recording above seems to be rather controversial - I'm just getting into the lute harpsichord and must say that the 'small handful' that I own currently are a more pleasant listen than the Goldbergs by Toth - guess that I'm favoring Premont's comments @ the moment about this recording; but, will anyone else record these works on this instrument?  Is this a disc worth saving for historic interest?  Just letting some thoughts in my head coming out in the typing -  ;) :D   Dave



Et tu, Dave? (or: You too, Dave?)  ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on April 19, 2009, 05:10:24 PM
Quote from: premont on April 19, 2009, 11:09:57 AM

Jaccottet´s performance upon lute-harpsichord of some of the movements from Bach´s suite BWV 995 may serve as an example of vivid and expressive agogics

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jdnhqmc3tjg/suite c-moll prelude.wma

http://www.mediafire.com/file/meumzjv2znw/suite c-moll sarabande.wma

http://www.mediafire.com/file/dniwie2jjjj/suite c-moll gavotte.wma

In my opinion, the late Christiane Jaccottet was a tremendous harpsichordist.  I have a number of her recordings on LP and only recently did I get the Philips DUO where she performed with Arthur Grumiaux.

BTW, the CD cover has an error since she did not play violin in this recording ...

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 19, 2009, 06:38:10 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 19, 2009, 03:21:11 PM
Antoine, Don & Premont - if you're reading this post - the recording above seems to be rather controversial - I'm just getting into the lute harpsichord and must say that the 'small handful' that I own currently are a more pleasant listen than the Goldbergs by Toth - guess that I'm favoring Premont's comments @ the moment about this recording; but, will anyone else record these works on this instrument?  Is this a disc worth saving for historic interest?  Just letting some thoughts in my head coming out in the typing -  ;) :D   Dave

I don't think there's anything controversial about the recording;  some like it, some don't.  So I don't believe it has any historical value.  If I didn't enjoy the performances, the disc would be in the dumpster.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 20, 2009, 01:53:47 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 19, 2009, 04:03:28 PM
Et tu, Dave? (or: You too, Dave?)  ;D

Each to his own, and of course I respect your taste.

Now I am interested in acquiring some of Jaroslav Tuma´s clavichord recordings. An instrument with a more obvious expressive potential than the lute-harpsichord. I think I shall choose the WTC, which is available through JPC. I only know Tuma from his recordings (on organ) of the AoF and his incomplete Clavierübung III. These are serene and introvert interpretations. However this is the way I most often prefer this music (including the fugues from WTC) played.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 20, 2009, 02:01:03 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 19, 2009, 05:10:24 PM
In my opinion, the late Christiane Jaccottet was a tremendous harpsichordist.  I have a number of her recordings on LP and only recently did I get the Philips DUO where she performed with Arthur Grumiaux.

Yes, her recordings always impress me much. Fortunately I own many of her Bach recordings (solo works on Interchord and harpsichord concertos on Vox).

This box contains the lionshare of her Bach solo recordings:

http://www.amazon.com/PREMIUM-40-CD-BOX-SET/dp/B000IFRXV6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1240221566&sr=1-3
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 20, 2009, 07:50:11 PM
Quote from: premont on April 20, 2009, 01:53:47 AM
Each to his own, and of course I respect your taste.

Now I am interested in acquiring some of Jaroslav Tuma´s clavichord recordings. An instrument with a more obvious expressive potential than the lute-harpsichord. I think I shall choose the WTC, which is available through JPC. I only know Tuma from his recordings (on organ) of the AoF and his incomplete Clavierübung III. These are serene and introvert interpretations. However this is the way I most often prefer this music (including the fugues from WTC) played.




If you are looking for serene and introverted performances, this guy will not dissapoint you, Premont. And probably the WTC is even more in this vein than other Tuma's recordings.

BTW, do you know Gergely Sárközy?

If you know him, for some reason I suspect that your opinion will not be favorable. But I would like to know your opinion about him.



Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 21, 2009, 04:12:35 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 20, 2009, 07:50:11 PM
If you are looking for serene and introverted performances, this guy will not dissapoint you, Premont. And probably the WTC is even more in this vein than other Tuma's recordings.

Sounds fine. 


Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 20, 2009, 07:50:11 PM
BTW, do you know Gergely Sárközy?

He is not more than a name for me. From the top of my head I can say, that he is a Hungarian multiinstrumentalist who has built his lute-harpsichord himself, and who has recorded only a small amount of Bach. This small amount may be the reason why I have not investigated him yet, - and add to this some unfavorable reviews I recall having read many years ago. Can you recommend some recordings?

I should add that am very receptive to your recommendations. Even if I am not always as enthusiastic about them as you are, I consider the listening to these a profitable and useful widening of my musical horizon.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on April 22, 2009, 04:40:58 PM
I have this set by Igor Kipnis for some times and I enjoy Kipnis' performance on the harpsichord.  I also have a number of CD's by Kipnis on other harpsichord works by Bach and Scarlatti ...

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/42/d8/023f810ae7a031bca6ba9110.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2009, 01:39:14 PM
Quote from: premont on April 20, 2009, 02:01:03 AM
Yes, her recordings always impress me much. Fortunately I own many of her Bach recordings (solo works on Interchord and harpsichord concertos on Vox).

This box contains the lionshare of her Bach solo recordings:

http://www.amazon.com/PREMIUM-40-CD-BOX-SET/dp/B000IFRXV6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1240221566&sr=1-3

Thanks for the excellent Jaccottet's examples, Premont.

Yesterday I was listening her Goldbergs and today a disc with some Inventions & Sinfonias.

It's a shame the general disorder reigning in her catalogue.

She is an artist who deserves a better destiny than this.

Can I ask how many discs by her are included in the box set that you have pointed out?

Or maybe anyone else knows this set?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 01, 2009, 05:10:40 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2009, 01:39:14 PM
Thanks for the excellent Jaccottet's examples, Premont.

Yesterday I was listening her Goldbergs and today a disc with some Inventions & Sinfonias.

It's a shame the general disorder reigning in her catalogue.

She is an artist who deserves a better destiny than this.

Can I ask how many discs by her are included in the box set that you have pointed out?

Or maybe anyone else knows this set?

There is no description for this set on the Amazon website.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 01, 2009, 05:15:52 PM
Hey, I did find a description of this set and some other 40-CD sets by Cascade ...


http://www.cascade-medien.com/40CD_Box_Katalog.pdf
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2009, 05:47:34 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 01, 2009, 05:15:52 PM
Hey, I did find a description of this set and some other 40-CD sets by Cascade ...


http://www.cascade-medien.com/40CD_Box_Katalog.pdf

Thanks, Coop!   ;D

13 discs:

CD 9
The Well-Tempered Piano I BWV 846 – 869 Vol. 1

CD 10
The Well-Tempered Piano I BWV 846 – 869 Vol. 2

CD 11
The Well-Tempered Piano II BWV 870 – 893 Vol. 1

CD 12
The Well-Tempered Piano II BWV 870 – 893 Vol. 2

CD 13
French Overture BWV 831 B flat minor
French Suite no. 1 BWV 812 D minor
French Suite no. 2 BWV 813 C minor
French Suite no. 3 BWV 814 B flat minor

CD 14
French Suite no. 4 BWV 815 B Flat major
French Suite no. 5 BWV 816 G major
Italian Concerto BWV 971 F major
(Piano Exercise II)
w/ Dubravka Tomsic, piano

CD 15
English Suite no. 1 BWV 806 A major
English Suite no. 2 BWV 807 A minor
English Suite no. 3 BWV 808 G minor

CD 16
English Suite no. 4 BWV 809 F major
English Suite no. 5 BWV 810 E minor
English Suite no. 6 BWV 811 D minor

CD 17
Inventions and Symphonies BWV 772-801
Various Preludes

CD 21
The Goldberg Variations BWV 988
(Aria with 30 variances from Piano Exercise IV)
Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue
BWV 903 D minor

CD 34
Toccata BWV 913 D minor
Toccata BWV 914 E minor
Toccata BWV 912 D major and other Toccatas

CD 35
Partita for harpsichord BWV 830 E minor
Four Duets from Piano Exercise III BWV
802 - 805
Partita no. 7 BWV 831 B minor (Overture after the French Fashion)

CD 38
Partita for harpsichord BWV 826 C minor
Partita for harpsichord BWV 828 D major
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 01, 2009, 06:07:49 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2009, 05:47:34 PM
Thanks, Coop!   ;D

13 discs:

CD 9
The Well-Tempered Piano I BWV 846 – 869 Vol. 1

CD 10
The Well-Tempered Piano I BWV 846 – 869 Vol. 2

CD 11
The Well-Tempered Piano II BWV 870 – 893 Vol. 1

CD 12
The Well-Tempered Piano II BWV 870 – 893 Vol. 2

CD 13
French Overture BWV 831 B flat minor
French Suite no. 1 BWV 812 D minor
French Suite no. 2 BWV 813 C minor
French Suite no. 3 BWV 814 B flat minor

CD 14
French Suite no. 4 BWV 815 B Flat major
French Suite no. 5 BWV 816 G major
Italian Concerto BWV 971 F major
(Piano Exercise II)
w/ Dubravka Tomsic, piano

CD 15
English Suite no. 1 BWV 806 A major
English Suite no. 2 BWV 807 A minor
English Suite no. 3 BWV 808 G minor

CD 16
English Suite no. 4 BWV 809 F major
English Suite no. 5 BWV 810 E minor
English Suite no. 6 BWV 811 D minor

CD 17
Inventions and Symphonies BWV 772-801
Various Preludes

CD 21
The Goldberg Variations BWV 988
(Aria with 30 variances from Piano Exercise IV)
Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue
BWV 903 D minor

CD 34
Toccata BWV 913 D minor
Toccata BWV 914 E minor
Toccata BWV 912 D major and other Toccatas

CD 35
Partita for harpsichord BWV 830 E minor
Four Duets from Piano Exercise III BWV
802 - 805
Partita no. 7 BWV 831 B minor (Overture after the French Fashion)

CD 38
Partita for harpsichord BWV 826 C minor
Partita for harpsichord BWV 828 D major


I would pay for the set just to get the CD's by Christiane Jaccottet.  The rest of the artists probably are not that impressive ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2009, 08:23:24 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 01, 2009, 06:07:49 PM
I would pay for the set just to get the CD's by Christiane Jaccottet.  The rest of the artists probably are not that impressive ...


It's my impression too; although I could be interested in Miklos Spanyi, Milos Jurkovic and Zuzana Ruzickova.  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 02, 2009, 12:32:25 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2009, 08:23:24 PM

It's my impression too; although I could be interested in Miklos Spanyi, Milos Jurkovic and Zuzana Ruzickova.  :)

Yes Spanyi is worth hearing, and also the CD with Esther Sialm. Her Dorian T&F is tremendous.
Also the violin S&P´s and the cellosuites are interesting.
Jurkovic and Ruzickova are dry and boring.
The recorded (and mastered) sound is generally decent.

However the box is a steal for $20  = $½ per CD.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 02, 2009, 07:23:24 AM
Quote from: premont on May 02, 2009, 12:32:25 AM
Yes Spanyi is worth hearing, and also the CD with Esther Sialm. Her Dorian T&F is tremendous.
Also the violin S&P´s and the cellosuites are interesting.
Jurkovic and Ruzickova are dry and boring.
The recorded (and mastered) sound is generally decent.

However the box is a steal for $20  = $½ per CD.

Well, I was interested, but today the box set appears "temporarily out of stock" on Amazon.

It seems my interest was excessively "public".  :(  I suppose will find it on another site, but the price was excellent.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 02, 2009, 07:27:24 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 02, 2009, 07:23:24 AM
Well, I was interested, but today the box set appears "temporarily out of stock" on Amazon.

It seems my interest was excessively "public".  :(

Which Amazon website did you check?  The US website does not show it being out of stock?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 02, 2009, 07:29:54 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 02, 2009, 07:27:24 AM
Which Amazon website did you check?  The US website does not show it being out of stock?

The link in the Premont's message. I will see another.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 03, 2009, 12:24:20 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 02, 2009, 07:29:54 AM
The link in the Premont's message. I will see another.
Here is another:
http://musique.fnac.com/a1889821/Jean-Sebastien-Bach-Bach-Premium-Edition-Coffret-40-CDs-CD-album?Mn=-1&Ra=-29&To=0&Nu=1&Fr=0
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 03, 2009, 09:26:19 AM
Thanks, Premont.

Yesterday I found in a local store the Mozart box set, but not this.

But in replace I found several beautiful discs of the collection "Aus Schlössern un Residenzen" (Pilz Acanta now), with some beautiful recordings from the early seventies.  :)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 08, 2009, 06:11:11 PM
Today I have listened to the Watchorn's WTC Book 1 for the first time.

It has been a devastating experience: the wonderful sound of the pedal harpsichord, the musicality and warmth of the interpretation, the agogics (as sometimes says our friend Premont) IMO so well chosen in order to "declaim" every prelude and fugue in the best possible way.

Probably I should wait some days to write my impressions about this and to be cautious, but I am so happy that I can't be prudent...  ;D

A real must-have.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2009, 04:31:56 AM
I found this interesting discussion (on www.jsbach.org) about the previous recording mentioned by me.

It includes two comments from the performer himself:

Scott Belyea said:

New recording on a pedal harpsichord. Done using the "Lehman" tuning. Extensive & interesting notes with comments on each pair of pieces including comments on the effect of the tuning and the use of pedal.

Have only been through it once, but I like it very much. Everything seems to "work;" nothing is jarring or out of place; and I listened to both CD's with great pleasure. I'm confident that it's a recording which will "wear well."

Lovely recording quality.

Definitely recommended.

Jan Hanford said:

I found this to be a mostly tedious and ponderous performance. There were a few nice moments but too few to make the recording enjoyable, for me.

The frequent use of the 4' stop was very unpleasant; it's the kind of harpsichord sound that makes people not like the harpsichord. The pedal harpsichord doesn't work here either, the sound is too huge and deep for these pieces. The repetition of the first Prelude in C major at the conclusion of the 24 preludes and fugues because it created "closure" where there was none, is just a pompous affectation and comes off like... well, a pompous affectation. The recorded sound is lovely.

As for the tuning I can only say: The emperor has no clothes.

Peter Watchorn said:

Notes from the performer to Jan Hanford's comments above:

1. Bach owned perhaps as many as three pedal harpsichords (they were left to Johann Christian, the youngest son). They were widely used in Germany in Bach's time. The A minor fugue (no.20) is unplayable without an independent pedal. Other pieces also benefit from its use. The instrument would certainly have not seemed "too huge and deep" to an organist used to playing a 60 rank Silbermann organ, with pedal stops down to 32' pitch. And it does not seem so to me: I think this is instrument is tremendously effective in clearly delineating Bach's counterpoint. Majestic, in fact.
2. Bach's harpsichords (and virtually all Northern European instruments from 1560-1809) all had a 4' register, whose use is an integral part of the plein jeu (full harpsichord) sound, and necessary for many of Bach's more imposing preludes & fugues. Many will find it an exciting sound (as I do, and as 17th-18th century musicians clearly did), especially on a Ruckers type instrument like this one. For the listener's information: there is great variety of registration used throughout these performances. Everything from single 8', 2 x 8', different 8's on different manuals and full harpsichord (8',8',4'). If I had had a 16', I would have used that too, on occasion.
3. The reprise of the first prelude was not intended as a "pompous affectation", and should not be characterised as such. Others may well judge it as effective as I did when I had the idea to do it. Bach himself did it in the Goldberg Variations, another cyclical work from 20 years later.

The temperament, which was the product of much compelling research on the part of Bradley Lehman, (www.larips.com) may well prove very effective to those with the experience to hear the point of it (and perhaps, the point of Bach's writing the work to demonstrate it). It is subtle, but more interesting and characterful than equal temperament. It will be obvious to even the casual listener after a few listenings. It should not be lightly dismissed, since it may very well represent the truth of the matter. Lehman's evidence is very well argued, and the ear accepts it right away. No keys sound bad, which is not the case with other unequal tunings in this music.

I believe that, listened to in the right way, these performances will prove enjoyable to many listeners - that is my hope. Please, just take the time to do it and the music will do the rest.

David Hamilton said:

Although I did find Miss Hanford's comments to be somewhat harsh I found Mr. Watchorn's response to be sadly inappropriate from a so-called professional musician. Are we to believe that if one does not praise a recording there is some flaw in the listener, who did not listen "in the right way"? I have no doubt that Miss Hanford is duly capable of listening "in the right way". I myself did enjoy Mr. Watchorn's performance however after reading his comments I'm disinclined to recommend it to my fellow music lovers for fear they may not listen to it "in the right way" thereby forming a bad opinion of it and further distressing Mr. Watchorn.

Peter Watchorn said:

Thanks to Jan for publishing my comments - she was under no obligation to do so. They were meant to inform, not to denote any sense of upset on my part (although I'd prefer it if she liked my work). However, David Hamilton will, I'm sure agree that recordings take a lot of time, money and effort (especially for a small non-profit label such as ours) and it is surely as fair for a professional musician to answer criticism as it is for others to criticize. This is a public forum, and what I sought to do was to provide supplementary information that many readers might find interesting, as well as an alternative view - and invitation for others to investigate what I believe is an interesting release - and not simply because I'm doing the playing!

Ronald K Tacelli SJ said:

I'm an avid reader of jsbach.org and especially of Jan Hanford's reviews. I've come to trust her judgment so much that when she praises a recording I'll order it right away, if she pans one--well, I figure there's no point even bothering to listen to it. Hence I'm glad I'd already heard Peter Watchorn's WTC, Book 1 before Jan's review appeared; I might have missed what I now consider to be the greatest recording of this work ever made. When I first noticed the pedal harpsichord during the C major Fugue I was startled; I'd never thought of the music that way before. So I stopped everything else I was doing and just listened--again, and again, and again. Once I'd heard the Fugue in C# Major I thought: this is the way it was meant to be heard. Now my previous favorite version (by Glen Wilson) seems thin and anemic. Watchorn has instantiated Bach's music both as an Uebung and as a unified work of art: the very opposite of tedious or pedantic. As for the repetition of the Prelude in C major--I don't understand the offense this elicited. Watchorn is presenting Book 1 as an organic unity and he replays the first Prelude at the end (and more beautifully, by the way) to remind us that the ending has developed from a beginning. It's no more pompous than the flute solo introducing Jordi Savall's version of the Musical Offering. If it's an affectation, it's certainly not self-serving. It's clearly meant to serve the music. And for me at least it works. I hope all readers of this great web-site will give Watchorn's WTC, Book 1 a chance. And, Jan, I hope you'll give it a second chance.

Jan Hanford said:

I am delighted that other people love this recording, I really am. But I stand by my opinion, regardless of how much other people would like me to think differently. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on May 09, 2009, 04:44:41 AM
Watchhorn's WTC1: at least it is not expensive to try out. 

ps. You may find a previous discussion about Richard Egarr's WTC1 (using the same Bach/Lehmann tuning) on this website equally "interesting".  I am willing to leave people to their different tastes, especially in Bach.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 09, 2009, 04:57:12 AM
This WTC by Bob van Asperen is on my shopping list for the next month ...

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/5617112.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2009, 05:02:57 AM
Quote from: traverso on May 09, 2009, 04:44:41 AM
Watchhorn's WTC1: at least it is not expensive to try out. 

ps. You may find a previous discussion about Richard Egarr's WTC1 (using the same Bach/Lehmann tuning) on this website equally "interesting".  I am willing to leave people to their different tastes, especially in Bach.

I have read the previous discussion about Egarr. But usually his individual performances are not "interesting" for me. I like his work as a chamber musician in Bach, accompanied by Manze or Jaap ter Linden.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 09, 2009, 07:01:35 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2009, 05:02:57 AM
I have read the previous discussion about Egarr. But usually his individual performances are not "interesting" for me. I like his work as a chamber musician in Bach, accompanied by Manze or Jaap ter Linden.

The same here.  I am not sure if I care to get any of his solo CD's.  As some have pointed out, it is not clear if Egarr is indeed a better harpsichordist than Pinnock, Hogwood or Rousset.  So far, he certainly does not seem to be a better band-leader than Pinnock and Hogwood.  He still needs a number of years to prove that he is the equal of Pinnock and Hogwood ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 09, 2009, 07:12:30 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2009, 04:31:56 AM
I found this interesting discussion (on www.jsbach.org) about the previous recording mentioned by me.

It includes two comments from the performer himself: Re: Peter Watchorn Bach WTC, Book1 on pedal harpsichord.

Antoine - thanks for the comments & quotes concerning the recording above - I don't usually visit that site, so was unaware of the performer's responses.

I have a number of versions of these works on piano, which please me, but have been 'in the market' for a harpsichord option - Glen Wilson has been on my wish list for a while (waiting for either the price to drop and/or a re-issue in a 'cheaper' package!), mainly because of Don's et al recommendations.  However, one commentor in your post and also one in the Amzonian Reviews HERE (http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Wohltemperierte-Clavier-Book/dp/B000NHKD0C/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1241880840&sr=1-4) state that they prefer this new interpretation over that of Wilson!  Not sure if Don has heard this 'new' set of discs, but if he's reading, then comments appreciated.  Thanks all!  Dave

P.S. Is or will there be a 'second book'?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2009, 07:37:30 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 09, 2009, 07:12:30 AM
Antoine - thanks for the comments & quotes concerning the recording above - I don't usually visit that site, so was unaware of the performer's responses.
...
P.S. Is or will there be a 'second book'?

You're welcome, Dave.

These are the future Watchorn's releases announced on the Musica Omnia website:

MO 0202: Bach: Das Wohltemperierte Clavier II Peter Watchorn (pedal harpsichord)

MO 0306: Bach: French Suites, BWV 812-817 Peter Watchorn (harpsichord)

MO 0307: Bach: Clavierübung II & III Peter Watchorn (harpsichord)

MO 0403: Bach Partitas, BWV 825-830 Peter Watchorn (harpsichord)

MO 0405: Bach: Harpsichord Concertos, BWV 1052-1055 Penelope Crawford, Peter Watchorn

MO 0411: Bach: Trio Sonatas, BWV 525-530 Peter Watchorn (pedal harpsichord)

MO 0502: Bach: Fantasias & Fugues I Peter Watchorn (harpsichord)

MO 0504: Bach: Harpsichord Concertos, BWV 1056-1059 Penelope Crawford, Peter Watchorn

MO 0505: Bach: Toccatas, BWV 910-916 Peter Watchorn (pedal harpsichord)

MO 0506: Bach: Sonatas, Suites, Capriccios Peter Watchorn, (pedal harpsichord)

MO 0507: Bach: Concerto arrangements, BWV 972-987; 592a Peter Watchorn (harpsichord)

MO 0511: Bach: Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080 Peter Watchorn (pedal harpsichord)

MO 0512: Bach: Goldberg Variations, BWV 988 Peter Watchorn (harpsichord)

:o

Now I'm listening to the Violin Sonatas by Ngai/Watchorn. I'm especially impressed for the great balance between the instruments.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2009, 07:55:48 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 09, 2009, 07:44:29 AM
Peter Watchorn is really the anchor recording artist for Musica Omnia ...

He is not just a Musica Omnia artist, he is a co-founder, president of the board and owner of the label... And, BTW, a great  harpsichordist and scholar.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on May 09, 2009, 08:15:39 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 09, 2009, 07:12:30 AM

I have a number of versions of these works on piano, which please me, but have been 'in the market' for a harpsichord option - Glen Wilson has been on my wish list for a while (waiting for either the price to drop and/or a re-issue in a 'cheaper' package!), mainly because of Don's et al recommendations.  However, one commentor in your post and also one in the Amzonian Reviews HERE (http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Wohltemperierte-Clavier-Book/dp/B000NHKD0C/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1241880840&sr=1-4) state that they prefer this new interpretation over that of Wilson!  Not sure if Don has heard this 'new' set of discs, but if he's reading, then comments appreciated.  Thanks all!  Dave

Yes, I've had Watchorn's WTC I for the better part of a year now and have listened to it a few times.  Watchorn is certainly a "major league player", and I've greatly enjoyed his WTC I each time I played it; I also love the pedal harpsichord.  So I give the set the thumbs-up.

I found it amusing that Watchorn indicated to Hurford that she might not be listening properly.  When I reviewed his English Suites, I had a few negative comments.  His response was to say that I likely hadn't listened enough times to his performance; little did he know that nobody listens more extensively to a disc being reviewed than the Bulldog - 15 to 20 hearings of complete concentration along with numerous comparison versions.  So, in a polite way, Watchorn gets quite defensive.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on May 09, 2009, 08:21:05 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2009, 07:37:30 AM
Now I'm listening to the Violin Sonatas by Ngai/Watchorn. I'm especially impressed for the great balance between the instruments.

I've had this set for a few years now and find Watchorn very rewarding.  However, I'm not as enthusiastic about Ngai whose vitality and incisiveness are sometimes insufficient.  So it's a good set but not among the leaders.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on May 09, 2009, 08:24:05 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2009, 07:55:48 AM
He is not just a Musica Omnia artist, he is a co-founder, president of the board and owner of the label... And, BTW, a great  harpsichordist and scholar.

My understanding is that Watchorn started his own label to insure that he could progress and complete his Bach recordings without worrying about which labels might take him on.  I like that approach - screw them all and do your own thing.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2009, 08:32:48 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 09, 2009, 07:59:02 AM
Like Jordi Savall ...   ;D

Sure, although in the last years the artistic quality of Savall's recordings has been strongly criticized.

Some people believe that the artist has been replaced by the businessman. But the people say so many things...  :)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2009, 08:44:57 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 09, 2009, 08:15:39 AM
Watchorn is certainly a "major league player"...

That was exactly my thought yesterday. I'm looking forward to listen to Leonhardt again.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 09, 2009, 08:58:26 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2009, 08:32:48 AM
Sure, although in the last years the artistic quality of Savall's recordings has been strongly criticized.

Some people believe that the artist has been replaced by the businessman. But the people say so many things...  :)



The major labels are only interested in cranking out more warhorse CD's.  Few of them are genuinely interested in bringing something new and "worthy" to the listening public ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on May 09, 2009, 09:08:44 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 09, 2009, 08:58:26 AM
The major labels are only interested in cranking out more warhorse CD's.  Few of them are genuinely interested in bringing something new and "worthy" to the listening public ...

I don't think in terms of "major" labels anymore.  There are just a whole bunch of different labels, and I get to have my pick of them.  That's good.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2009, 09:15:11 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 09, 2009, 08:21:05 AM
I've had this set for a few years now and find Watchorn very rewarding.  However, I'm not as enthusiastic about Ngai whose vitality and incisiveness are sometimes insufficient.  So it's a good set but not among the leaders.

I am enjoying the first disc, but I have not listened to the second one or the disc "Bach as Capellmeister". But I clearly have noticed a remarkable interest for the balance between the instruments, sometimes difficult in these pieces and the Gamba Sonatas, for example. Obviously my impression is totally incomplete yet, but I don't know if the search for the balance could be the cause of certain "lack of incisiveness" in the violin.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 09, 2009, 10:12:10 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2009, 07:37:30 AM
These are the future Watchorn's releases announced on the Musica Omnia website:

MO 0202: Bach: Das Wohltemperierte Clavier II Peter Watchorn (pedal harpsichord)

MO 0306: Bach: French Suites, BWV 812-817 Peter Watchorn (harpsichord)

MO 0307: Bach: Clavierübung II & III Peter Watchorn (harpsichord)

MO 0403: Bach Partitas, BWV 825-830 Peter Watchorn (harpsichord)

MO 0405: Bach: Harpsichord Concertos, BWV 1052-1055 Penelope Crawford, Peter Watchorn

MO 0411: Bach: Trio Sonatas, BWV 525-530 Peter Watchorn (pedal harpsichord)

MO 0502: Bach: Fantasias & Fugues I Peter Watchorn (harpsichord)

MO 0504: Bach: Harpsichord Concertos, BWV 1056-1059 Penelope Crawford, Peter Watchorn

MO 0505: Bach: Toccatas, BWV 910-916 Peter Watchorn (pedal harpsichord)

MO 0506: Bach: Sonatas, Suites, Capriccios Peter Watchorn, (pedal harpsichord)

MO 0507: Bach: Concerto arrangements, BWV 972-987; 592a Peter Watchorn (harpsichord)

MO 0511: Bach: Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080 Peter Watchorn (pedal harpsichord)

MO 0512: Bach: Goldberg Variations, BWV 988 Peter Watchorn (harpsichord)


I certainly look forward to these releases, but considering the time he needs to complete each of his recordings, I doubt, if he will manage to finish his gigantic project.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on May 11, 2009, 08:07:10 AM
A question for those of you who have Watchorn's WTC I:

The booklet indicates that Watchorn uses two instruments - a harpsichord and a pedal harpsichord.  However, I didn't notice any information as to which instrument he plays for each piece (except for a few citations in the discussion of each piece).  Am I on the wrong track?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 11, 2009, 10:46:34 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 11, 2009, 08:07:10 AM
A question for those of you who have Watchorn's WTC I:

The booklet indicates that Watchorn uses two instruments - a harpsichord and a pedal harpsichord.  However, I didn't notice any information as to which instrument he plays for each piece (except for a few citations in the discussion of each piece).  Am I on the wrong track?

His pedal harpsichord is probably only made up of of the pedalboard. He must have a "usual" harpsichord too (mounted upon the pedalboard) on which he can play the manual parts.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on May 11, 2009, 10:54:24 AM
Quote from: premont on May 11, 2009, 10:46:34 AM
His pedal harpsichord is probably only made up of of the pedalboard. He must have a "usual" harpsichord too (mounted upon the pedalboard) on which he can play the manual parts.

Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 11, 2009, 01:32:26 PM
Quote from: premont on May 11, 2009, 10:46:34 AM
His pedal harpsichord is probably only made up of of the pedalboard. He must have a "usual" harpsichord too (mounted upon the pedalboard) on which he can play the manual parts.

Don's comments peaked my interest since I just ordered the Peter Watchorn WTC performances; so, did some googling just now and came up w/ a bunch of pictures, such as the one below which is described as "a magnificent pair of instruments, a German double-manual harpsichord and matching pedal harpsichord built by Keith Hill & Phillip Tyre in 1985 " - website HERE (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.claviersbaroques.com/images/JLHT20002Aside.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.claviersbaroques.com/JLHTDblPlusPedal.htm&usg=__s2TFLcwlgfwmz1aGphUUAwXJ5kg=&h=605&w=632&sz=48&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=gnEYLn5YfWGYZM:&tbnh=131&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpedal%2Bharpsichord%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4DMUS_enUS315US204%26um%3D1) w/ more images and text - boy, looks like a tough set of instruments to play together!  :o

(http://www.claviersbaroques.com/images/JLHT20002Aside.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on May 11, 2009, 01:38:11 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 11, 2009, 01:32:26 PM
Don's comments peaked my interest since I just ordered the Peter Watchorn WTC performances; so, did some googling just now and came up w/ a bunch of pictures, such as the one below which is described as "a magnificent pair of instruments, a German double-manual harpsichord and matching pedal harpsichord built by Keith Hill & Phillip Tyre in 1985 " - website HERE (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.claviersbaroques.com/images/JLHT20002Aside.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.claviersbaroques.com/JLHTDblPlusPedal.htm&usg=__s2TFLcwlgfwmz1aGphUUAwXJ5kg=&h=605&w=632&sz=48&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=gnEYLn5YfWGYZM:&tbnh=131&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpedal%2Bharpsichord%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4DMUS_enUS315US204%26um%3D1) w/ more images and text - boy, looks like a tough set of instruments to play together!  :o

(http://www.claviersbaroques.com/images/JLHT20002Aside.jpg)

We can handle it.  You take the top; I'll take the bottom.  We'll make beautiful music together.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 11, 2009, 06:23:37 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 11, 2009, 01:38:11 PM
We can handle it.  You take the top; I'll take the bottom.  We'll make beautiful music together.

Well, Don - it's a DATE!  ;D  Maybe I could 'punch out' a few Tin Pan Alley tunes?  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 11, 2009, 07:29:19 PM
After a hard day in the office, it's a pleasure to think about these things.  ;D

During the weekend I found an article by the young harpsichordist Mahan Stefahani (entitled "Putting the Pedal to the WTC") with some additional details about the pedal harpsichord and the recording by Watchorn:

http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/putting-the-pedal/Oct-06/23562

Here a picture of the instrument:

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 02:24:44 PM
The harpsichord playing by Christiane Jaccottet in this set is just fabulous.  I have already ripped WTC, the French and the English Suites to my desktop ...     ;D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51p63cCYYLL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 21, 2009, 08:45:12 PM
Here is a WTC recording on harpsichord I really would like to have ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HP07BCRSL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on May 21, 2009, 11:24:27 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 21, 2009, 08:45:12 PM
Here is a WTC recording on harpsichord I really would like to have ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HP07BCRSL._SS400_.jpg)

Shouldn't be difficult!
Been re-re-released on two VirginX2 sets and (this incarnation) available at amazon market for a few pennies.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 22, 2009, 04:18:12 AM
Quote from: traverso on May 21, 2009, 11:24:27 PM
Shouldn't be difficult!
Been re-re-released on two VirginX2 sets and (this incarnation) available at amazon market for a few pennies.

It appears to be available as a 4-CD box set as pictured ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on May 22, 2009, 06:42:23 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 22, 2009, 04:18:12 AM


It appears to be available as a 4-CD box set as pictured ...

Has ugly covers (I'd rather listen to than look at Mr van Asperen) in a bulky double jewel box.   But for a couple of quid only I didn't mind and it is what I have.  For a little bit more one can get the same recordings as two veritaX2, a better choice IMO.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 22, 2009, 06:49:13 AM
Quote from: traverso on May 22, 2009, 06:42:23 AM
Has ugly covers (I'd rather listen to than look at Mr van Asperen) in a bulky double jewel box.   But for a couple of quid only I didn't mind and it is what I have.  For a little bit more one can get the same recordings as two veritaX2, a better choice IMO.

My buying binge at MDT will have to slow down since the Pound has gone up some 12% against the USD over the past month.  I have bought some 400 CD's from MDT since January.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on May 22, 2009, 06:54:36 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 22, 2009, 06:49:13 AM
I have bought some 400 CD's from MDT since January.

Well the two Verita twofers are probably available in the US.  

Edit. Yes they are.  Just checked @ Amazon.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 22, 2009, 07:16:26 AM
Quote from: traverso on May 22, 2009, 06:54:36 AM
Well the two Verita twofers are probably available in the US.  

Edit. Yes they are.  Just checked @ Amazon.

Understood.  Every CD I have bought from MDT is also available in the US except that when it comes to small English label, MDT's sale price is just so much better than what is available here stateside.  A typical Hyperion CD is a few dollars cheaper at MDT, even based on the latest pound/dollar exchange rate.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on June 04, 2009, 11:28:21 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 22, 2009, 03:48:45 PM
 

.....the following 40-CD set which includes probably all the Bach keyboard works recorded by the late Christiane Joccottet.  Most of her oirginal recordings are now OOP.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51p63cCYYLL._SS500_.jpg)

Unfortunately not. Threre are at least three CDs more (the lute-harpsichord CD I offered exerpts from in the Bach harpsichord thread, and two more, which I do not own, and which were available only during a short period of time in the late 1980es, containing works which are no part of any collection e.g Fantasia and Fugue a-minor. Add to this her recording (for Vox) of all the Bach harpsichord concertos (for harpsichord and strings to be precise).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 23, 2009, 08:02:47 AM
Some time ago the opinions about Egarr's Goldberg Variations were not very favorable here. Currently, I have been considering his Book I of the WTC (Harmonia Mundi, 2 CDs). I'm especially intrigued about the tempi used by Egarr. I have believed to hear there some attractive slow tempi and certain doses of well delivered rubato. Any opinion?

BTW, does somebody know the new recording of the AoF on Naxos (by Sergio Vartolo)? Opinions?

Thanks in advance.

:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on August 23, 2009, 08:07:48 AM
I have the following WTC sets on order ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NXCKE1PHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HP07BCRSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) 

So the harpsichord version of these works have not been overlooked ...  ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on August 23, 2009, 08:12:10 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 23, 2009, 08:02:47 AM
Some time ago the opinions about Egarr's Goldberg Variations were not very favorable here. Currently, I have been considering his Book I of the WTC (Harmonia Mundi, 2 CDs). I'm especially intrigued about the tempi used by Egarr. I have believed to hear there some attractive slow tempi and certain doses of well delivered rubato. Any opinion?

BTW, does somebody know the new recording of the AoF on Naxos (by Sergio Vartolo)? Opinions?

Thanks in advance.

:)

I am sitting on the fence with regard to further acquisitons of Egarr's recordings in view of a number of not so favorable reviews of his recent recordings ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 23, 2009, 08:31:18 AM
Many times in the past I thought to purchase that WTC by Kirkpatrick, but I left the idea when I purchased a satisfactory version played on clavichord by Jaroslav Tuma.  But who knows if in the future...  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on August 23, 2009, 08:41:33 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 23, 2009, 08:02:47 AM
Some time ago the opinions about Egarr's Goldberg Variations were not very favorable here. Currently, I have been considering his Book I of the WTC (Harmonia Mundi, 2 CDs). I'm especially intrigued about the tempi used by Egarr. I have believed to hear there some attractive slow tempi and certain doses of well delivered rubato. Any opinion?

As I wrote earlier, I think Egarr´s WTC I is underarticulated and the agogics contrieved. The Lehmann tuning is interesting, adding to create a rather soft sound I think, but another somewhat more articulate interpretation (Watchorn) uses the same tuning.


Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 23, 2009, 08:02:47 AM
BTW, does somebody know the new recording of the AoF on Naxos (by Sergio Vartolo)? Opinions?

Listened to it once, about a month ago. Did not impress me much. Shall relisten after another bunch of Beethoven piano sonatas / Lewis.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on August 23, 2009, 08:48:34 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 23, 2009, 08:02:47 AM
Some time ago the opinions about Egarr's Goldberg Variations were not very favorable here. Currently, I have been considering his Book I of the WTC (Harmonia Mundi, 2 CDs). I'm especially intrigued about the tempi used by Egarr. I have believed to hear there some attractive slow tempi and certain doses of well delivered rubato. Any opinion?

As a Bach keyboard artist, Egarr is always searching for "cantabile heaven", and I think he succeeds.  However, what suffers is Bach's dark side and sharpness of contours.

Personally, I prefer his WTC I to his Goldbergs.  Concerning slow tempi in his WTC, that's comes primarily through the faster pieces.  The best thing is his rhythmic hesitations and other rubato effects.  Overall, not a great set but quite satisfying as long as you're not looking for the music's underbelly.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 23, 2009, 09:18:21 AM
Thanks, Premont and Don. Although your final impressions are a bit different, the conclusion seems clear:

Pros: Singing approach, rhythmic hesitations, soft sound (Lehmann tuning)

Cons: "Underarticulated" (lack of "sharpness of contours")

... interesting.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Franco on August 23, 2009, 01:20:04 PM
I've got Bach: The Art Of Fugue, Etc / Richard Troeger (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=102860) on my wish List.  Anyone offer any impressions? 

The clavichord is the instrument used.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on August 23, 2009, 03:21:54 PM
Quote from: Franco on August 23, 2009, 01:20:04 PM
I've got Bach: The Art Of Fugue, Etc / Richard Troeger (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=102860) on my wish List.  Anyone offer any impressions? 

The clavichord is the instrument used.



I like it very much - intimate but with plenty of tension when needed.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on August 23, 2009, 03:56:01 PM
Quote from: Franco on August 23, 2009, 01:20:04 PM
I've got Bach: The Art Of Fugue, Etc / Richard Troeger (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=102860) on my wish List.  Anyone offer any impressions?  
The clavichord is the instrument used.

It is in my listening queue. Don´s post just above makes me consider a "forwarding".
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 24, 2009, 10:06:08 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 23, 2009, 08:48:34 AM
As a Bach keyboard artist, Egarr is always searching for "cantabile heaven", and I think he succeeds.  


Good line, Don. I forgot to say it yesterday, but it is an interesting (and problematic) theme to consider the "cantabile" aspects of some Bach's keyboard works. It recalls me a previous conversation with Premont. There he said some central things about the Baroque as a musical language:

Quote from: premont on March 10, 2009, 10:13:47 AM
Baroque music regarded (and Bach certainly the most) as speech, not only as to phrasing and articulation, but also as to conversation. I do not think Harnoncourt invented this point of view, but I always agreed with him. I have had some discussion in another forum concerning the distinction between speech and song, but in my opinion speech is the most adequate description, especially regarding the articulation.

:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 25, 2009, 06:03:31 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 23, 2009, 08:48:34 AM
Egarr is always searching for "cantabile heaven"

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 24, 2009, 10:06:08 AM
Good line, Don.

My apologies, Don. Just today I understood the reference to the Egarr's essay. I will read it tonight.

BTW, do you see any similarity between Egarr and Ketil Haugsand? (in the style, not in this work obviously)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on August 25, 2009, 01:40:49 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 25, 2009, 06:03:31 AM
BTW, do you see any similarity between Egarr and Ketil Haugsand? (in the style, not in this work obviously)


Not really.  Egarr sings and uses much more legato.  Haugsand converses and prefers rather sharp phrasing.  My preference is with Haugsand.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 25, 2009, 05:54:52 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 25, 2009, 01:40:49 PM
My preference is with Haugsand.

That's good to know because I'm considering his Six Partitas BWV 825-830 (Simax).

:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on August 27, 2009, 03:41:32 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 25, 2009, 05:54:52 PM
That's good to know because I'm considering his Six Partitas BWV 825-830 (Simax).

Well, Haugsands Bach Partitas is a friendly and nice interpretation, relatively well articulated and with natural agogics. Some may find some of his tempi too much on the slow side though, and I would prefer the Toccata of the e-minor Partita and some of the Gigues played more vivid and with more bite. There is a gereral air of ataraxia throughout.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on August 27, 2009, 03:59:02 AM
Quote from: Franco on August 23, 2009, 01:20:04 PM
I've got Bach: The Art Of Fugue, Etc / Richard Troeger (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=102860) on my wish List.  Anyone offer any impressions? 
Very recommendable. Well articulated playing with ideal transparency. Tempi rather fast and style a little robust and passionate.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on September 11, 2009, 01:51:40 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646896653.jpg)
1. Concerto in C major, BWV 976
(after vln conc. RV 265)
2. Concerto in F major, BWV 978
(after vln conc. RV 310)
3. Concerto in D major, BWV 972
(after vln conc. RV 230)
4. Concerto in G major, BWV 980
(after vln conc. RV 383a)
5. Concerto in G minor, BWV 975
(after vln conc. RV 316a)
6. Concerto in G major, BWV 973
(after vln conc. RV 332)
7. Italian Concerto in F major, BWV 971
Harpsichord not indicated, but it sounds the same as the one on the other disc.

(http://images.play.com/covers/10287953x.jpg)
1. Suite in A minor, BWV 818a
2. Prelude in C major, BWV 846a*
3. Prelude in E minor, BWV 855a*
4. Suite in A major, BWV 832
5. Three Minuets (Klavierbüchlein für Wilhelm Friedemann Bach)*
6. Suite in E flat major, BWV 819a
7. Prelude in C minor, BWV 847*
8. Prelude in D minor, BWV 851*
9. Suite in F minor, BWV 823
10. Wer nur den lieben Gott läßt walten, BWV 691*
Harpsichord: copy after an anonymous instrument of 1735 from the Silbermann School, made by Anthony Sidey & Frédéric Ball, Paris, 1995.
Clavichord*: double strung clavichord, made by Anthony Sidey, Paris, 1995.

Got these a while ago - both have been reissued a few times before.
I did not hear Olivier Baumont in Bach before, and it is an unqualified pleasure - he should definitely do more! :) Interestingly, I cannot notice any French characteristics in his approach and style. His Bach here is bright and flowing, outward looking. He plays swift but not speedy, never laborious. This reminds me most of Alan Curtis' playing (in the French & English Suites) - no minor compliment. Sheer delight. :)

On the separate issues:
When I heard the Vivaldi adaptations disc, I thought that it easily surpassed the issue by Peter Watchorn on Hänssler, that I have. But on re-listening that, I (luckily) found it is not that simple. Watchorn plays more stately and measured, more probing, if you will. But he has a keen sense of proportion and accentuation, plays a beautiful instrument which is very well recorded. So for a for more comprehensive (complete) recording, Watchorn remains a firm recommendation. But the Baumont is gorgeous. :)

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/40/372840.jpg)

BTW if you've ever read that this is "inferior" Bach, either because these are adaptations, or because these are adaptations of the music of an "inferior" composer - forget all about it. Besides the fact that Vivaldi composed valuable music (Bach did think so...) this is just wonderfull music, and Bach made any music thouroughly his own when he laid his hands on it.
The disc concludes with a very fine performance of the Italian concerto, in fact one of the best I've heard. Bright, sparkling and upbeat, juicy - avoiding the stiffness occasionally found in other performances.

The second disc contains some of Bach earlier suites, combined with pieces from the Klavierbüchlein (the Preludes also featuring in the WTC), all played on clavichord. All of the above about Baumont's style apply here as well. I liked the performances on the clavichord very much, though a leap to stereo for cranking up the volume is called for. Wonderfull performances, wonderfull disc. For those seeking a more comprehensive survey of Bach earlier keyboard works, I repeat my warm recommendation of the recordings in the Hänssler Bach edition, which include a fair amount of recordings on the lute-harpsichord! And of course Rousset's recording of the Klavierbüchlein.

(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092102000.jpg)(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092103000.jpg)(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092107000.jpg)(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092110000.jpg) (http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia//images_produits/ZoomPE/6/7/7/3760020170776.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on September 11, 2009, 02:00:53 AM
Quote from: Que on September 11, 2009, 01:51:40 AM
(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia//images_produits/ZoomPE/6/7/7/3760020170776.jpg)
Q

in case the case for the Klavierbuechlein hasn't been made forcefully enough (Thanks, Q, for bringing it up again):

The Best Recordings of 2005 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html)
#9 (New)
...Alas, all these recordings will have to get their individual reviews in the New Year - and I will pick Christophe Rousset's new Bach recording on the Ambroise label (previously reviewed on Ionarts (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/11/harpsichord-like-rarely-ever.html)). Not the best of Bach's keyboard works (and admittedly by a good margin), these little practise works (a few were included by Bach but actually come from the pen of other composers) for his kid to learn the harpsichord are played with panache, speed, and passion in such ample supply that they transcend their lesser status easily. Absolute purists may be turned off by Rousset's use of what is essentially rubato... but those with a musical, not ideological, soul should be hard pressed not to be moved. Best of all is the sound of the instrument and the recording. It's simply the richest, most blooming harpsichord sound I have heard on any recording. Stunning and too good to resist, even at a high price. Forty-plus dollars is a word for a bit more than one hundred minutes of music, but if the luxury packaging (the booklet could have been more extensive, still) doesn't lure you, the performance ought to. I myself can't wait to get my hands on Rousset's other two Bach recordings for Ambroise, the English Suites and the French Suites.


Harpsichord Like Rarely Ever (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/11/harpsichord-like-rarely-ever.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/11/harpsichord-like-rarely-ever.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/11/harpsichord-like-rarely-ever.html)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on September 11, 2009, 03:07:07 AM
Thanks Jens, and a very nice review BTW. :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2009, 04:01:59 AM
Have they finished casting Bach in Love yet?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on September 12, 2009, 12:19:37 AM
Thanks, Que, for your views on the Baumont discs. Also, given their relatively inexpensive cost per disc, it now stays fairly high on my wish-pile. :)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 30, 2009, 09:20:56 PM
Any opinion about Helmut Walcha as a harpsichordist?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 03, 2009, 05:07:22 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 30, 2009, 09:20:56 PM
Any opinion about Helmut Walcha as a harpsichordist?

Hi Antoine


Helmut Walcha the harpsichordist is (was) not that different from Helmut Walcha the organist.

The EMI recordings (originally Odeon, Germany) were made in the years 1958 – 62 (he later rerecorded the WTC for Archiv on period instruments) and  include

Clavierübung I, II  and IV.
Wohltemperierte Clavier I & II
English and French suites
Inventions & Symphonies
Chromatic Fantasy & Fugue

The complete recordings were rereleased by Japanese HMV on CD more then ten years ago, and it was difficult to get hold of and very expensive. Since long OOP. The only European CD rerelease is the French 5CD HMV box displayed in you post above.

The used instrument is a two manual Ammer modern harpsichord (16´ , 8´, 8´, 4´, and lute stop), built - as it was common in the 1950es - with pianistic ideals in mind and not taking surviving period instruments into account. The sound is not crisp at all but rather harsh and metallic.

The recording was engineered by Eric Thienhaus, who preferred a very close miking. This resulted in a more harsh sound than necessary, but on the other hand added quite a lot of intensity to the sound. A more recent parallel as to effect might be Kovacevic´s EMI Bethoven Sonata recordings.

Stylistically Walcha was entirely his own. He grew up in the time of the organ movement, which – as you know - constituted a reaction towards romanticism -  and had intruduced an ascetic, platonic view upon Bach´s works. Only what was written in the original score should be played (Werktreue). In my opinion they actually confused the score with the work. So Walcha on his own hand (while he was retired to the countryside – in Bruchköbel - during the war) worked out his interpretation of the harpsichord works based upon the naked score and which for the same reason was bound to stress the elementary elements which are notated in the score (rhythm and counterpoint).

In practice his tempi are often fast. His playing is insistent rhythmically but also stiff and mechanical, including the metrical execution of ornamentation. And he never adds ornamentation, even when the music cries out for this. On the other hand his part playing is outstanding and very clear, - this may be the greatest force of his music making. He uses rather much 16´ in his registrations, and this is probably justified, as Bach had access to such instruments and was known to prefer Gravitas at least in organ-registration. Walcha built up his own system of articulation, which implies more legato, than now is considered decent. What e.g. annoys me very much, is his preference for overtied upbeats creating rhythmically odd syncopated effects. His touch is rather forceful  (the effect stressed by the close miking) as if he was playing on a mechanical tracker organ with a heavy action.

What stands out as being the hallmarks of his playing, is his ability to display the intellectual structure (the counterpoint at most) of Bach´s music by means of his extraordinary clear part playing. At the same time his insistent rhythm and forceful touch endows the music with very much intensity, often bordering a kind of extasy. So in addition to his intellectual approach, his music making also has got a strong physical effect. This reflects in my opinion the intrinsic nature of Bach´s music, and it is in this synthesis where Walcha may be considered unsurpassable, even if he - from a HIP point of view - got some of the details wrong. Personally I consider his EMI harpsichord recordings mandatory for every Bach-lover.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 03, 2009, 05:17:03 AM
Just checking Peter Watchorn's website Musica Omnia (http://www.musicaomnia.org/index2.htm) - appears that he's about to release the WTC, Book 2 on the pedal harpsichord - own the first book w/ him which came on 2 discs; this one is listed as 3 discs but not sure why w/o seeing the contents?   :D


(http://www.musicaomnia.org/new_pa30.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 07:07:00 AM
Quote from: premont on October 03, 2009, 05:07:22 AM
Hi Antoine


Helmut Walcha the harpsichordist is (was) not that different from Helmut Walcha the organist.

...

Thanks for your reply, Premont. I have read with attention and pleasure your thoughtful insides. Additionally, your reply has a lot of valuable information, not always easy to search. I can almost imagine those ascetic, essentialist performances brought from the organ, "often bordering a kind of extasy". As I have seen that set on Amazon France, I will order it the next week with the Foccroulle's set.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 07:10:09 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 03, 2009, 05:17:03 AM
Just checking Peter Watchorn's website Musica Omnia (http://www.musicaomnia.org/index2.htm) - appears that he's about to release the WTC, Book 2 on the pedal harpsichord - own the first book w/ him which came on 2 discs; this one is listed as 3 discs but not sure why w/o seeing the contents?   :D


(http://www.musicaomnia.org/new_pa30.jpg)

Excellent news, Dave! That label usually adds an extra CD for "conversations with the performers, instrument builders and restorers, and noted scholars" ("Beyond the Notes").
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on October 03, 2009, 07:29:21 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 07:10:09 AM
That label usually adds an extra CD for "conversations with the performers, instrument builders and restorers, and noted scholars" ("Beyond the Notes").

How nice is that! :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 03, 2009, 08:14:07 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 07:10:09 AM
Excellent news, Dave! That label usually adds an extra CD for "conversations with the performers, instrument builders and restorers, and noted scholars" ("Beyond the Notes").

Would be excellent, but I own Watchorns English suites (2 CDs), WTC book I (2 CDs) and Inventions and Symphonies (1 CD), all on Watchorns own label. But no supplementary CD´s anywhere of the kind you write about. So I am afraid, that the three CDs needed for WTC book II reflects Watchorns tendency to slow tempi, one of the traits he has in common with Isolde Ahlgrimm, you know.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on October 03, 2009, 08:22:16 AM
Quote from: premont on October 03, 2009, 08:14:07 AM
Would be excellent, but I own Watchorns English suites (2 CDs), WTC book I (2 CDs) and Inventions and Symphonies (1 CD), all on Watchorns own label. But no supplementary CD´s anywhere of the kind you write about. So I am afraid, that the three CDs needed for WTC book II reflects Watchorns tendency to slow tempi, one of the traits he has in common with Isolde Ahlgrimm, you know.

I remember back when Watchorn's label was inititated.  At that time, the supplementary CD was included.  Since then, not.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on October 03, 2009, 08:25:58 AM
Quote from: premont on October 03, 2009, 05:07:22 AM
Hi Antoine


Helmut Walcha the harpsichordist is (was) not that different from Helmut Walcha the organist.

The EMI recordings (originally Odeon, Germany) were made in the years 1958 – 62 (he later rerecorded the WTC for Archiv on period instruments) and  include

Clavierübung I, II  and IV.
Wohltemperierte Clavier I & II
English and French suites
Inventions & Symphonies
Chromatic Fantasy & Fugue

The complete recordings were rereleased by Japanese HMV on CD more then ten years ago, and it was difficult to get hold of and very expensive. Since long OOP. The only European CD rerelease is the French 5CD HMV box displayed in you post above.

The used instrument is a two manual Ammer modern harpsichord (16´ , 8´, 8´, 4´, and lute stop), built - as it was common in the 1950es - with pianistic ideals in mind and not taking surviving period instruments into account. The sound is not crisp at all but rather harsh and metallic.

The recording was engineered by Eric Thienhaus, who preferred a very close miking. This resulted in a more harsh sound than necessary, but on the other hand added quite a lot of intensity to the sound. A more recent parallel as to effect might be Kovacevic´s EMI Bethoven Sonata recordings.

Stylistically Walcha was entirely his own. He grew up in the time of the organ movement, which – as you know - constituted a reaction towards romanticism -  and had intruduced an ascetic, platonic view upon Bach´s works. Only what was written in the original score should be played (Werktreue). In my opinion they actually confused the score with the work. So Walcha on his own hand (while he was retired to the countryside – in Bruchköbel - during the war) worked out his interpretation of the harpsichord works based upon the naked score and which for the same reason was bound to stress the elementary elements which are notated in the score (rhythm and counterpoint).

In practice his tempi are often fast. His playing is insistent rhythmically but also stiff and mechanical, including the metrical execution of ornamentation. And he never adds ornamentation, even when the music cries out for this. On the other hand his part playing is outstanding and very clear, - this may be the greatest force of his music making. He uses rather much 16´ in his registrations, and this is probably justified, as Bach had access to such instruments and was known to prefer Gravitas at least in organ-registration. Walcha built up his own system of articulation, which implies more legato, than now is considered decent. What e.g. annoys me very much, is his preference for overtied upbeats creating rhythmically odd syncopated effects. His touch is rather forceful  (the effect stressed by the close miking) as if he was playing on a mechanical tracker organ with a heavy action.

What stands out as being the hallmarks of his playing, is his ability to display the intellectual structure (the counterpoint at most) of Bach´s music by means of his extraordinary clear part playing. At the same time his insistent rhythm and forceful touch endows the music with very much intensity, often bordering a kind of extasy. So in addition to his intellectual approach, his music making also has got a strong physical effect. This reflects in my opinion the intrinsic nature of Bach´s music, and it is in this synthesis where he may be considered unsurpassable, even if he - from a HIP point of view - got some of the details wrong. Personally I consider his EMI harpsichord recordings mandatory for every Bach-lover.



That's a very inspiring post, Premont.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 08:44:44 AM
Quote from: premont on October 03, 2009, 08:14:07 AM
Would be excellent, but I own Watchorns English suites (2 CDs), WTC book I (2 CDs) and Inventions and Symphonies (1 CD), all on Watchorns own label. But no supplementary CD´s anywhere of the kind you write about. So I am afraid, that the three CDs needed for WTC book II reflects Watchorns tendency to slow tempi, one of the traits he has in common with Isolde Ahlgrimm, you know.

It's probable because I am just speculating. I have three sets with the additional CD:

Bach - Six Sonatas for Violin and Harpsichord BWV 1014-1019 (3 CDs, with the third one named "Bach as Capellmeister: Cöthen 1717-1722" with Peter Watchorn).

Felix & Fanny Mendelssohn - Piano Trios (2 CDs; 2nd CD: "The Mendelssohns: The Artist Place in High Society" with Schröder, Sutherland and Crawford).

Gabriel Fauré - Nocturnes (2 CDs; 2nd CD: "Drawn in sound" with Sally Pinkas).

:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 03, 2009, 08:51:36 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 08:44:44 AM
I have three sets with the additional CD:

Bach - Six Sonatas for Violin and Harpsichord BWV 1014-1019 (3 CDs, with the third one named "Bach as Capellmeister: Cöthen 1717-1722" with Peter Watchorn).

Lady Fortuna seems to smile to you.  :)

BTW can you recommend the set with the Bach violin/harpsichord sonatas (the two CDs with the music of course)?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 09:10:11 AM
Quote from: premont on October 03, 2009, 08:51:36 AM
Lady Fortuna seems to smile to you.  :)

Just for now.  :D

Quote from: premont on October 03, 2009, 08:51:36 AM
BTW can you recommend the set with the Bach violin/harpsichord sonatas (the two CDs with the music of course)?

Without any problem. I like the excellent balance between the instruments and the sober, calm, anti-Italianate approach  :D. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 03, 2009, 02:04:03 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 07:10:09 AM
Excellent news, Dave! That label usually adds an extra CD for "conversations with the performers, instrument builders and restorers, and noted scholars" ("Beyond the Notes").

Yes, I noticed that w/ the Atlantis Trio Mendelssohn releases - just picked up the one below (left) of the Piano Trio D Minor & the Piano Sextet - just 1 disc (and a recommendation from you to me, I believe, in another thread) - so, put in an order to complete the 'Trio set' w/ Felix's other piano trio and that of his sister, which fits on a single CD, but is described as a 1+1, so I'm assuming that the other disc is what you describe above?  Thanks for the recommendation - enjoyed tremendously!  Dave  :)


(http://www.musicaomnia.org/images/mo0205-fc272x233.jpg)  (http://www.musicaomnia.org/images/mo0105-fc272x233.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on October 03, 2009, 02:11:31 PM
Quote from: premont on October 03, 2009, 08:51:36 AM

BTW can you recommend the set with the Bach violin/harpsichord sonatas (the two CDs with the music of course)?

I can recommend the set for Watchorn's exceptional performances.  I'm not as sold on his partner Ngai who I find is too often reserved and emotionally superficial.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 02:33:57 PM
Quote from: premont on October 03, 2009, 08:51:36 AM
... (the two CDs with the music of course)?

BTW, Watchorn has a rather pleasant voice.

I have sent you a PM.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 02:45:51 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 03, 2009, 02:04:03 PM
... so, put in an order to complete the 'Trio set' w/ Felix's other piano trio and that of his sister, which fits on a single CD, but is described as a 1+1, so I'm assuming that the other disc is what you describe above? 

You are totally right.

The second CD is what I described above. It's named "The Mendelssohns: The Artist Place in High Society", a conversation among the performers (Schröder, Sutherland and Crawford).

:)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2009, 09:56:26 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 03, 2009, 05:17:03 AM
Just checking Peter Watchorn's website Musica Omnia (http://www.musicaomnia.org/index2.htm) - appears that he's about to release the WTC, Book 2 on the pedal harpsichord - own the first book w/ him which came on 2 discs; this one is listed as 3 discs but not sure why w/o seeing the contents?   :D

Quote from: premont on October 03, 2009, 08:14:07 AM
Would be excellent, but I own Watchorns English suites (2 CDs), WTC book I (2 CDs) and Inventions and Symphonies (1 CD), all on Watchorns own label. But no supplementary CD´s anywhere of the kind you write about. So I am afraid, that the three CDs needed for WTC book II reflects Watchorns tendency to slow tempi, one of the traits he has in common with Isolde Ahlgrimm, you know.


Mystery solved with the kind help of the performer himself, who has answered me via email. Kindly also, he has authorized me to share his replies here:

- Book 2 really takes 3 CDs for the music alone. The total playing time is 186 minutes (!). I recorded it in three days (God knows how!) and I think this recording is the best yet. I used the large German harpsichord (same one used for the violin sonatas and the 2 & 3 part Inventions/Sinfonias). This time, however, it was placed on the same pedal harpsichord used in Book 1 of the WTC. The sound is unbelievably awesome - we came up with a new set-up that really focused the sound, improving it substantially.

Final mastering is due by October 15th, CDs should be out before end of October.

- Book 2 of the WTC is longer for one main reason: so many of the preludes have repeats, whereas only one does in Book 1. I also added the G major prelude, BWV 902 as an appendix (it is substantial: nearly 9' long, with both repeats played). This was once attached to an early version of the little G major fugue that did make it into the WTC Book 2. It is such a great piece that I decided to include it. Without it Book 2 clocks in at 177 minutes.

Book 2 was recorded in the same space as Book 1. This time, however, we built a "wall" behind the instrument to focus the sound. It worked. Also, for Book 2, I used a different harpsichord (a large German-style instrument) in order to emphasize the differences between Books 1 & 2. I think it turned out well.


BTW, Peter Watchorn is not just one of the most gifted and learned harpsichordists in activity, but a charming person too, interested in the contact with his public.

MUSICA OMNIA WEBSITE (http://www.musicaomnia.org/index2.htm)

:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 04, 2009, 02:59:35 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2009, 09:56:26 AM

Mystery solved with the kind help of the performer himself, who has answered me via email. Kindly also, he has authorized me to share his replies here:

- Book 2 really takes 3 CDs for the music alone..................

Antoine - thanks for contacting Watchorn for an explanation of the upcoming 3-disc release!  I've sent a number of e-mails to performers over the years and several have responded, which has made me respect them much more.  Now, really looking forward to adding the second book to my first one!  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on October 04, 2009, 03:40:49 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 04, 2009, 02:59:35 PM
Antoine - thanks for contacting Watchorn for an explanation of the upcoming 3-disc release!  I've sent a number of e-mails to performers over the years and several have responded, which has made me respect them much more.  Now, really looking forward to adding the second book to my first one!  Dave  :D

Yes, the new Watchorn is a must-have.  I'm also looking forward to the Pollini Bk. 1.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 28, 2009, 03:31:59 AM
Has somebody listened to these discs?

:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on October 28, 2009, 04:59:30 AM
Quote from: premont on October 03, 2009, 05:07:22 AM

What e.g. annoys me very much, is his preference for overtied upbeats creating rhythmically odd syncopated effects.


So, thanks to your post, Premont,  I have been getting a lot of pleasure from his Harpsichord recordings on EMI recently.

But this point about the upbeats -- I just can't hear it. Can you point out a passage where it's really clear?

Thanks again.

Howard.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on October 28, 2009, 07:56:49 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on October 28, 2009, 05:47:35 AM
I was expressing a wish/request for new one to be released, does not exist currently........
his older Goldberg is available for Decca which I have, but his recent work for Ambroisie label is another level higher


I can't agree.  I have Rousset's English Suites on Ambroisie, and his interpretations are rather superficial.  Part of the problem is the sound which I find too bright and diffuse, resulting in a lack of fine detail among the musical lines.  Overall, I much prefer his Decca recordings.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DarkAngel on October 28, 2009, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on October 28, 2009, 07:56:49 AM
I can't agree.  I have Rousset's English Suites on Ambroisie, and his interpretations are rather superficial.  Part of the problem is the sound which I find too bright and diffuse, resulting in a lack of fine detail among the musical lines.  Overall, I much prefer his Decca recordings.

Yes I read in previous posts that you don't like the new Ambroisie sound for Rousset......the "wet" sound
It is much different sound/style than the Decca versions, so I am not surprised that some will not be enchanted with Ambroisie versions

I am with Bunny and a few others who think they are among the finest Bach harpsicord available, I want to drown in the wettness.........
I will keep the Decca versions on hand, but always use Ambroisie for my reference.
On my stereo systems the Ruckers used for Ambroisie performances has a full rich toned voice........making most others sound bright/thin by comparison

I can understand the "diffuse" description because part of the richness is the reverberant playing style and sound signature of Ruckers, other versions have a leaner brighter cleaner sound that I find less satisfying, so it is in the end a personal choice of what you like
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on October 28, 2009, 11:31:54 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on October 28, 2009, 10:30:58 AM
Yes I read in previous posts that you don't like the new Ambroisie sound for Rousset......the "wet" sound
It is much different sound/style than the Decca versions, so I am not surprised that some will not be enchanted with Ambroisie versions

I am with Bunny and a few others who think they are among the finest Bach harpsicord available, I want to drown in the wettness.........
I will keep the Decca versions on hand, but always use Ambroisie for my reference.
On my stereo systems the Ruckers used for Ambroisie performances has a full rich toned voice........making most others sound bright/thin by comparison

I can understand the "diffuse" description because part of the richness is the reverberant playing style and sound signature of Ruckers, other versions have a leaner brighter cleaner sound that I find less satisfying, so it is in the end a personal choice of what you like

You like the wet sound, I like it dry.  Sounds like we're both getting what we want.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on October 28, 2009, 01:16:35 PM
Quote from: opus106 on October 28, 2009, 12:32:44 PM
What are these "wet" and "dry" sounds? (That's a question asked in all seriousness.) Could you describe it to me?

It's so much easier to refer to a particular recording as wet or dry than provide a description, but I'll give it a shot.

For me, a wet recording sounds to a degree as if the source is slightly submerged in a tub of water - nothing is crisp or clear, so the detail of the various musical lines is blurred.  Although this damages homophonic music, it's a killer in polyphonic/contrapuntal music.

A equally odious sound is over-reverberation that sounds as if the music's source is an airplane hangar.  This type of sound has all the debilitating characteristics of a wet sound.  Of course, there are many who would refer to such sound as rich and gorgeous.

Dry sound is rather clinical with every detail open to the listener's discriminating tastes.  From what I regularly read and hear, most folks do not like dry/clinical sound.

The Rousset/Decca and Ambroisie sounds are so different that they are super examples to determine your preferences.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on October 28, 2009, 01:29:39 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on October 28, 2009, 01:16:35 PM
It's so much easier to refer to a particular recording as wet or dry than provide a description, but I'll give it a shot.

For me, a wet recording sounds to a degree as if the source is slightly submerged in a tub of water - nothing is crisp or clear, so the detail of the various musical lines is blurred.  Although this damages homophonic music, it's a killer in polyphonic/contrapuntal music.

A equally odious sound is over-reverberation that sounds as if the music's source is an airplane hangar.  This type of sound has all the debilitating characteristics of a wet sound.  Of course, there are many who would refer to such sound as rich and gorgeous.

Dry sound is rather clinical with every detail open to the listener's discriminating tastes.  From what I regularly read and hear, most folks do not like dry/clinical sound.

The Rousset/Decca and Ambroisie sounds are so different that they are super examples to determine your preferences.

Thanks, Don. I appreciate that. :) From that sounds of it (no pun intended), it seems I am someone who prefers the "dry" sound, although I can't be very sure. I'll have to listen to these examples you mention.

BTW, this is slightly off-topic, have you listened to Leonhardt's English Suites on Seon? And if you have, how would you describe it in terms of its "sonic moisture content"?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 28, 2009, 01:39:17 PM
Quote from: opus106 on October 28, 2009, 01:29:39 PM
BTW, this is slightly off-topic, have you listened to Leonhardt's English Suites on Seon? And if you have, how would you describe it in terms of its "sonic moisture content"?

Interesting question. Especially if you compare with his later recordings for EMI.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 28, 2009, 01:42:00 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 28, 2009, 03:31:59 AM
Has somebody listened to these discs?

Not yet. I do not know the performer.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on October 28, 2009, 01:50:37 PM
Quote from: opus106 on October 28, 2009, 01:29:39 PM
Thanks, Don. I appreciate that. :) From that sounds of it (no pun intended), it seems I am someone who prefers the "dry" sound, although I can't be very sure. I'll have to listen to these examples you mention.

BTW, this is slightly off-topic, have you listened to Leonhardt's English Suites on Seon? How would you describe it in terms of its "sonic moisture content"?

You are now "on topic" again. 8)

To comment on Rousset's Ambroisie recordings: their sound is uncommonly rich, reverberant if you wish. This is IMO caused by the very rich sounding Ruckers harpsichord in combination with a rich soundstage. I like it, but at first I was put off by the tonal blending - as if Rousset played too fast (although he does play pretty fast), but I quickly got adjusted. Now I'm a big fan of these recordings, can't wait for a WTC.

BTW, besides Rousset my primary recommendation for the English Suites, and for the French Suites for that matter, is Alan Curtis (Warner/Teldec). See post HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.msg247091.html#msg247091).

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 28, 2009, 02:06:47 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 28, 2009, 04:59:30 AM
So, thanks to your post, Premont,  I have been getting a lot of pleasure from his Harpsichord recordings on EMI recently.
But this point about the upbeats -- I just can't hear it. Can you point out a passage where it's really clear?

Very easily.

Almost every fugue-subject with upbeat may serve as an example. F.i. the F-sharp major from book I.

The first notes of the fugue subject are C-sharp F-sharp E-sharp F-sharp. The first note C-sharp is the upbeat, the second note F-sharp the good note.. He (Walcha) ties the first two notes (the upbeat to the good note) making it sound da-a da da, instead of supporting the rhythm by playing the first note detached and tie the second note(the good note) to the third note, making it sound da da-a da. I think he made it in this way in order to let the fugue subject stand out every time it appears.

Tied upbeats became common with the Vienna-classical style, since you on a fortepiano can play tied upbeats without disturbing the rhythm, by stressing the good note dynamically- This is not possible on a harpsichord.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 28, 2009, 03:20:49 PM
Quote from: premont on October 28, 2009, 01:42:00 PM
Not yet. I do not know the performer.

This is a "Kodak moment" (i.e.: a rare, one time, moment that is captured by a picture, or should have been captured by a picture), dear Premont.  ;D Don't you remember those lovely trio sonatas on lute-harpsichord?

:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on October 28, 2009, 03:41:36 PM
Quote from: opus106 on October 28, 2009, 01:29:39 PM
Thanks, Don. I appreciate that. :) From that sounds of it (no pun intended), it seems I am someone who prefers the "dry" sound, although I can't be very sure. I'll have to listen to these examples you mention.

BTW, this is slightly off-topic, have you listened to Leonhardt's English Suites on Seon? And if you have, how would you describe it in terms of its "sonic moisture content"?

I have Leonhardt's English Suites on EMI and assume the Seon set comes from different performances.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on October 28, 2009, 03:43:55 PM
Quote from: Que on October 28, 2009, 01:50:37 PM
BTW, besides Rousset my primary recommendation for the English Suites, and for the French Suites for that matter, is Alan Curtis (Warner/Teldec). See post HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.msg247091.html#msg247091).

Q

I have those Curtis recordings, and they are at the top of the mountain.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 28, 2009, 11:35:47 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 28, 2009, 03:20:49 PM
D Don't you remember those lovely trio sonatas on lute-harpsichord?

Oh yes, now I recall, that one of the two performers was called John Paul. :-[
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on October 29, 2009, 12:40:00 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on October 28, 2009, 03:41:36 PM
I have Leonhardt's English Suites on EMI and assume the Seon set comes from different performances.

I suppose so. That (containing the even-numbered suites) was my first harpsichord CD. I was still at an early stage and was not entirely comfortable with listening to the instrument for long periods of time. And that CD had passages which I found grating -- at times it was just loud sounds, especially when a series of notes was repeated over and over. Of course, in the intervening two or so years, I have come to appreciate works for the harpsichord, and I like it the most when, like you said, every detail can be clearly heard.

I recently bought Leonhardt's Partitas on EMI. I don't have the problem with the sound in that recording.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on November 04, 2009, 03:11:52 AM
Quote from: Que on October 28, 2009, 01:50:37 PM
To comment on Rousset's Ambroisie recordings: their sound is uncommonly rich, reverberant if you wish. This is IMO caused by the very rich sounding Ruckers harpsichord in combination with a rich soundstage. I like it, but at first I was put off by the tonal blending - as if Rousset played too fast (although he does play pretty fast), but I quickly got adjusted. Now I'm a big fan of these recordings, can't wait for a WTC.

whole-heartedly agree-agree-agree.

Fell in love, instantly, with this Rousset-Ambroise recording:

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/11/harpsichord-like-rarely-ever.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/11/harpsichord-like-rarely-ever.html)
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4844/292/320/rousset_klavierbuechlein.jpg)

...and the attraction never waned.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on November 21, 2009, 06:49:37 PM
Much talk about Rouset's recordings on Ambroisie lately! :)
For newcomers an excellent opportunity arises with this new issue: a 6CDset with the English & French Suites + the Klavierbüchlein!

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0822186001967.jpg)

At €30 at jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Englische-Suiten-BWV-806-811/hnum/3075965)  you'll get three sets for the price of one! :o :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on November 22, 2009, 02:06:21 AM
Quote from: Que on November 21, 2009, 06:49:37 PM
Much talk about Rouset's recordings on Ambroisie lately! :)
For newcomers an excellent opportunity arises with this new issue: a 6CDset with the English & French Suites + the Klavierbüchlein!

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0822186001967.jpg)

At €30 at jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Englische-Suiten-BWV-806-811/hnum/3075965)  you'll get three sets for the price of one! :o :)

Q

Oh. My. Gawd.

What a f$%^&()_)^incredible deal. That's less than any one of these sets cost. And the best f%$^&*()(*^% Bach on the Harpsichord* out there.
Just grab that bundle and ask questions later.


* 1.) Blandine Rannou comes close 2.) Rich acoustic may surprise.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Drasko on November 22, 2009, 02:38:04 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 22, 2009, 02:06:21 AM
Oh. My. Gawd.

Indeed! I want that. But the question is: grab it now with jpc exorbitant shipping rates or wait until it shows up at friendlier British sites, will the price there be as good?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on November 22, 2009, 03:03:19 AM
Quote from: Drasko on November 22, 2009, 02:38:04 AM
Indeed! I want that. But the question is: grab it now with jpc exorbitant shipping rates or wait until it shows up at friendlier British sites, will the price there be as good?
It's not marked as "specially priced" on jpc, so that factoid would go down on the "let's wait and see" side. If it shows up more expensive, you can still check and see if shipping makes the price difference worth getting it from Germania or not. But get, you must. I justed asked Ambroise if/when this set will be distributed in the US. I hope still this year.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Drasko on November 22, 2009, 03:42:21 AM
http://www.amazon.de/Englische-Suiten-Französische-Christophe-Rousset/dp/B002ONGXV6 (http://www.amazon.de/Englische-Suiten-Franz%C3%B6sische-Christophe-Rousset/dp/B002ONGXV6)

It is listed at amazon.de at same price, which makes jpc redundant (in my case at least). But it's still worth to wait and see what price will British come up with, especially with their frequent sales.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DarkAngel on November 22, 2009, 07:14:07 AM
Rousset/Ambroise 6CD set is an essential Bach purchase for harpsicord performance

I could probably sell the three Ambroise sets used at Amazon now and make profit over buying new 6CD set............but the individual sets have very lavish packaging which I like and will probably just keep them.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on November 22, 2009, 01:23:23 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on November 22, 2009, 07:14:07 AM
Rousset/Ambroise 6CD set is an essential Bach purchase for harpsicord performance


Oh, I think there are many other Bach harpsichord recordings of greater priority.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 05:19:49 PM
Harmonia Mundi has kindly collected together a reduced price 4CD boxset of Andreas Staier performances of Bach, just listened to the partitas and have not heard any better for harpsicord including newest Pinnock set, contents:

1)fantasies and fuges (10)
2)partitas 1,2,3
3)partitas 4,5,6
4)Italian Concerto, French Overture

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/82876673782.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on December 12, 2009, 05:26:00 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 05:19:49 PM
Harmonia Mundi has kindly collected together a reduced price 4CD boxset of Andreas Staier performances of Bach, just listened to the partitas and have not heard any better for harpsicord including newest Pinnock set, contents:

1)fantasies and fuges (10)
2)partitas 1,2,3
3)partitas 4,5,6
4)Italian Concerto, French Overture

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/82876673782.jpg)

All the recordings by Andrea Staier I have were performance on fortepiano ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 05:31:00 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 12, 2009, 05:26:00 PM
All the recordings by Andrea Staier I have were performance on fortepiano ...

The Staier boxset above uses two harpsicords:
-replica of Michael Mietke, Berlin 1702-1704 (CD 1)
-replica of Vorbildern, Germany 1740 (CD 2,3,4)

Keeping things German for Bach.......... ;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 13, 2009, 05:12:41 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 05:19:49 PM
Harmonia Mundi has kindly collected together a reduced price 4CD boxset of Andreas Staier performances of Bach, just listened to the partitas and have not heard any better for harpsicord including newest Pinnock set, contents:

1)fantasies and fuges (10)
2)partitas 1,2,3
3)partitas 4,5,6
4)Italian Concerto, French Overture

Well, I think the CD with Fantasies and Fugues is rather good, but in Staiers Clavierübung II and III I do not hear much other than inarticulate show-off, and actually I have parted with the Clavierübung set again.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on December 13, 2009, 05:48:43 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 05:19:49 PM
Harmonia Mundi has kindly collected together a reduced price 4CD boxset of Andreas Staier performances of Bach...



Deutsche Harmonia Mundi, to be precise. Originally the German 'brother' label of Harmonia Mundi (sharing the name with its French pendant) before they split and "Deutsche" Harmonia Mundi became an imprint of EMI (until the late 80s). In 1989 BMG took over distribution, in 1991 it bought DHM outright and it has since been part of the Sony/RCA/BMG family.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 05:55:20 AM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 05:12:41 AM
Well, I think the CD with Fantasies and Fugues is rather good, but in Staiers Clavierübung II and III I do not hear much other than inarticulate show-off, and actually I have parted with the Clavierübung set again.

As an alternative what do you consider best harpsicord partitas?

One person's "inarticulate show-off" is another person's thrilling performance, I love Staier's Bach
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 13, 2009, 07:31:50 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 05:55:20 AM
As an alternative what do you consider best harpsicord partitas?

For me, it was Leonhardt, Tureck and Gould for many years.  However, Craig Sheppard's set on Romeo now gets my vote; somewhat like Gould at his best without all the humming.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 13, 2009, 08:06:57 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 05:55:20 AM
As an alternative what do you consider best harpsicord partitas?
Gustav Leonhardt, either the DHM or EMI recording, Lars Ulrik Mortensen (Kontrapunkt), Kenneth Gilbert (Harmonia Mundi), Walcha (EMI), to mention some.

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 05:55:20 AM
One person's "inarticulate show-off" is another person's thrilling performance, I love Staier's Bach
Not always. Some degree of objectivity is possible.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 13, 2009, 08:54:09 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 13, 2009, 07:31:50 AM
For me, it was Leonhardt, Tureck and Gould for many years.  However, Craig Sheppard's set on Romeo now gets my vote; somewhat like Gould at his best without all the humming.

The Rousset 4-CD box below includes the Goldberg Variations & the Partitas, plus more, of course on the harpsichord - is this performer 'in the running'?

For piano, I have the 2-CD Nimbus set w/ Roberts - Don's mention of Sheppard, however, interests me (I like his Bk. 1 WTC) - I'm assuming the latter was a 'live' recording (but hopefully audience noise/clapping were eliminated, at least my preference) -  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514WXFFDAQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GD1TR15CL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 13, 2009, 09:07:27 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 13, 2009, 08:54:09 AM
The Rousset 4-CD box below includes the Goldberg Variations & the Partitas, plus more, of course on the harpsichord - is this performer 'in the running'?

For piano, I have the 2-CD Nimbus set w/ Roberts - Don's mention of Sheppard, however, interests me (I like his Bk. 1 WTC) - I'm assuming the latter was a 'live' recording (but hopefully audience noise/clapping were eliminated, at least my preference) -  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514WXFFDAQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GD1TR15CL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I forgot about the Partitas from Rousset - definitely one of the best. 

There's a world of difference between the Roberts and Sheppard.  Roberts is good for driving, Sheppard for full attention.  I have noticed that Roberts is much more interesting and adventurous in his live recordings; in the studio, he likes to play nice.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 09:18:41 AM
Quote from: premont on August 23, 2009, 08:41:33 AM
Listened to it once, about a month ago. Did not impress me much. Shall relisten after another bunch of Beethoven piano sonatas / Lewis.

Do you have any chance to listen to again TAoF by Vartolo, Premont?

BTW, I have finished agreeing with you about Lewis, especially because of his total insensitivity and uniformity on tempi and agogics.  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 09:19:28 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 13, 2009, 08:54:09 AM
The Rousset 4-CD box below includes the Goldberg Variations & the Partitas, plus more, of course on the harpsichord - is this performer 'in the running'?

Yes the Rousset and new Pinnock harpsicord partitas are very nice.............I would like to hear Rousset record these again for Ambroise label, I think they would be even better as his style has changed over the years as heard on his English and French suites.

We are confusing things discussing piano versions in on the harpsicord thread..............
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 09:31:25 AM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 08:06:57 AM
Not always. Some degree of objectivity is possible.

Just because some members here share some agreement about favorite performers does not make them the correct or best way to perform a Bach piece, these are all subjective opinions........

Unless you are saying an artist like Staier is not capable of physically playing the music on the sheets in front of him, then Staier is making subjective choices about what instrument to use and what style he wants to play the piece. We should not assume that we can make an objective case that he is doing it worse than say Leonhardt......you are just giving your opinion, as do I when I say I prefer Staier  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 13, 2009, 09:36:35 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 09:31:25 AM
Just because some members here share some agreement about favorite performers does not make them the correct or best way to perform a Bach piece, these are all subjective opinions........

Unless you are saying an artist like Staier is not capable of physically playing the music on the sheets in front of him, then Staier is making subjective choices about what instrument to use and what style he wants to play the piece. We should not assume that we can make an objective case that he is doing it worse than say Leonhardt......you are just giving your opinion, as do I when I say I prefer Staier  :)

Fortunately, there are some objective elements such as the use of agogic pauses, hesitations, staccato etc.  Of course, those are just descriptive elements that say nothing about artistry.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 09:44:09 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 09:31:25 AM
Just because some members here share some agreement about favorite performers does not make them the correct or best way to perform a Bach piece, these are all subjective opinions........

Unless you are saying an artist like Staier is not capable of physically playing the music on the sheets in front of him, then Staier is making subjective choices about what instrument to use and what style he wants to play the piece. We should not assume that we can make an objective case that he is doing it worse than say Leonhardt......you are just giving your opinion, as do I when I say I prefer Staier  :)

DA,    I hear you.  That is why I do not summarily brush off reviews on Amazon as some forum members do when that number exceeds 20 or more for a given recording.  While most  Amazon reviewers do not write for Fanfare but many of them appear to be quite knowledgeable.  Knowledge is something no one can monopolize, particularly in the age of internet. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 13, 2009, 09:52:50 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 09:18:41 AM
Do you have any chance to listen to again TAoF by Vartolo, Premont?
Yes, it is on my shelf. But it will have to wait until wednesday or so.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 09:18:41 AM
BTW, I have finished agreeing with you about Lewis, especially because of his total insensitivity and uniformity on tempi and agogics.  :)
What I expected. :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on December 13, 2009, 09:56:09 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 09:44:09 AM
DA,    I hear you.  That is why I do not summarily brush off reviews on Amazon as some forum members do when that number exceeds 20 or more for a given recording.  While most  Amazon reviewers do not write for Fanfare but many of them appear to be quite knowledgeable.  Knowledge is something no one can monopolize, particularly in the age of internet.

The problem is that knowledge doesn't translate into shared preference.  I very much enjoy reading the opinions of others, but there is no substitute for my own preferences.  As an example, I have read many favorable comments about Beausejour's WTC I.  Unfortunately, I concluded his account is not worthy.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 02, 2010, 05:48:36 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 09:18:41 AM
Do you have any chance to listen to again TAoF by Vartolo, Premont?

Relistening to Vartolo´s Art of Fugue was a mixed blessing, so to say.

He uses a wonderful, resonant instrument and he is superbly recorded. And he has got a really noble and sensitive touch and articulation. And his generally deliberate pace does not bother me at all. What on the other hand bothers me, is his completely inconsistent relation to tempo and rhythm. He changes the tempo all the time, and contrary to e.g. Wolfgang Rübsam, he does not revert to a basic pulse after his excesses. Of course he tries to be "expressive", but IMO he detracts very much from the greatness of the music and spoils the flow of the music. Add to this, that his changes of registration in many Contrapuncti  are superfluous and seem contrieved (e.g..end of four part mirror Cpt.s).  Concluding I find, that he pastes unwanted personal expressive measures into the music much in the same way as e.g. Glenn Gould (in Gould´s case not as to tempo but as to articulation), whom I find rightout irritating for the same reason.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DarkAngel on January 02, 2010, 06:21:42 AM
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/harmoniamundihmc902058.jpg)

Here is something I am really looking forward to, Andreas Staier version of Goldberg Variations.
Presto UK will be selling this Feb. 2010..........it will be mine  ;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 02, 2010, 11:42:11 AM
Quote from: premont on January 02, 2010, 05:48:36 AM
Relistening to Vartolo´s Art of Fugue was a mixed blessing, so to say.

He uses a wonderful, resonant instrument and he is superbly recorded. And he has got a really noble and sensitive touch and articulation. And his generally deliberate pace does not bother me at all. What on the other hand bothers me, is his completely inconsistent relation to tempo and rhythm. He changes the tempo all the time, and contrary to e.g. Wolfgang Rübsam, he does not revert to a basic pulse after his excesses. Of course he tries to be "expressive", but IMO he detracts very much from the greatness of the music and spoils the flow of the music. Add to this, that his changes of registration in many Contrapuncti  are superfluous and seem contrieved (e.g..end of four part mirror Cpt.s).  Concluding I find, that he pastes unwanted personal expressive measures into the music much in the same way as e.g. Glenn Gould (in Gould´s case not as to tempo but as to articulation), whom I find rightout irritating for the same reason.

Hi, Premont. I agree about all your favorable points on Vartolo's recording (instrument, sound quality, touch and articulation) , but I don't feel his changes of pulse during the performance as being detrimental to the greatness of the work. On the contrary, I feel them like very welcomed touches of sober expressiveness. I like equally the recording and the performance, particularly that immense contrapunctistic clarity brought by Vartolo to this set. Besides, his documentation is impressive, especially in the extended version of the booklet available on-line:  www.naxos.com/libretti/570577.htm   

In short, one of my preferred versions together with Leonhardt, Menno van Delft and, probably, Robert Hill (I don't have Walcha's version yet). 

:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on January 02, 2010, 11:55:49 AM
Quote from: premont on January 02, 2010, 05:48:36 AM
Relistening to Vartolo´s Art of Fugue was a mixed blessing, so to say.

He uses a wonderful, resonant instrument and he is superbly recorded. And he has got a really noble and sensitive touch and articulation. And his generally deliberate pace does not bother me at all. What on the other hand bothers me, is his completely inconsistent relation to tempo and rhythm. He changes the tempo all the time, and contrary to e.g. Wolfgang Rübsam, he does not revert to a basic pulse after his excesses. Of course he tries to be "expressive", but IMO he detracts very much from the greatness of the music and spoils the flow of the music. Add to this, that his changes of registration in many Contrapuncti  are superfluous and seem contrieved (e.g..end of four part mirror Cpt.s).  Concluding I find, that he pastes unwanted personal expressive measures into the music much in the same way as e.g. Glenn Gould (in Gould´s case not as to tempo but as to articulation), whom I find rightout irritating for the same reason.

There you go - I don't find either Vartolo or Gould irritating.  I used to hate tempo changes such as those used by Vartolo, but in recent years I'm smitten with them (for the most part).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 02, 2010, 12:43:20 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 02, 2010, 11:42:11 AM
In short, one of my preferred versions together with Leonhardt, Menno van Delft and, probably, Robert Hill (I don't have Walcha's version yet). 

If we are talking of harpsichord versions exclusively, I share these your preferences - would add Moroney though, maybe instead of Hill. Especially I enjoy the calm pace and clear part playing of van Delft. And Leonhardt, who´s intense expressivity of course is very individual, but which in these ears borders congeniality. Hill is competent but a bit too hard driven for my taste, finding him more convincing elsewhere. Moroney delivers at first listening maybe the most "objective" interpretation of all, but repeated listening uncovers his introvert expression.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 02, 2010, 12:52:09 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 02, 2010, 11:55:49 AM
There you go - I don't find either Vartolo or Gould irritating.  I used to hate tempo changes such as those used by Vartolo, but in recent years I'm smitten with them (for the most part).

My taste has also changed during the years, generally in the way, that I have become more tolerant to a wider spectrum of interpretations. On the other hand I have got a more strict idea of stylistics, and I do not find pleasure in interpretations, which my mind tells me are out of style as is the case with Gould and Vartolo.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on January 02, 2010, 09:55:38 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on January 02, 2010, 06:21:42 AM
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/harmoniamundihmc902058.jpg)

Here is something I am really looking forward to, Andreas Staier version of Goldberg Variations.
Presto UK will be selling this Feb. 2010..........it will be mine  ;)

Devil!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on January 03, 2010, 02:01:10 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on January 02, 2010, 06:21:42 AM
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/harmoniamundihmc902058.jpg)

Here is something I am really looking forward to, Andreas Staier version of Goldberg Variations.
Presto UK will be selling this Feb. 2010..........it will be mine  ;)

Sofar I've not been entirely convinced by Staier's Bach. ::) I think the man is a Classicist.  :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DarkAngel on January 03, 2010, 04:48:42 AM
Quote from: Que on January 03, 2010, 02:01:10 AM
Sofar I've not been entirely convinced by Staier's Bach. ::) I think the man is a Classicist.  :)
Q

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/82876673782.jpg)

As far as being a classicist, guilty as charged......I have nothing but high praise for the few Haydn, Mozart releases so far by Staier. Even his Schubert is causing some waves

Did you pick up Staier's 4 CD Bach boxset?
I was very impressed especially the Bach six partitas, took a long time to get a Goldberg for his followers, I would be surprised if he did not deliver anything short of an inspired performance...........
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DarkAngel on January 03, 2010, 04:51:05 AM
Quote from: Bunny on January 02, 2010, 09:55:38 PM
Devil!

Just trying to keep the classical music economy alive...........and a small payback for our favorite artists
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on January 03, 2010, 06:58:07 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on January 03, 2010, 04:48:42 AM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/82876673782.jpg)

As far as being a classicist, guilty as charged......I have nothing but high praise for the few Haydn, Mozart releases so far by Staier. Even his Schubert is causing some waves

Did you pick up Staier's 4 CD Bach boxset?
I was very impressed especially the Bach six partitas, took a long time to get a Goldberg for his followers, I would be surprised if he did not deliver anything short of an inspired performance...........

I like Staier's Haydn and have 2 CD's in their original HM "jackets".  I will wait and see as my experience has been not all tried and true "classical" pianists were successful in transforming themselves into notable performers of Bach keyboard works.  Helene Grimaud and Daniel Barenboim came to mind ...   :-\
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jwinter on January 03, 2010, 03:14:25 PM
Purchase and tip of the day:  should you happen to see a super-cheapie 4 disc box called "Bach: The Well-Tempered Piano" on Kannon Records, which gives no indication at all on the outside as to who's performing, it's actually the full WTC on harpsichord by Christiane Jaccottet. 

On first listen I think the performances are fine, and very well-recorded.   I'm quite pleased, particularly since I paid less than 5 bucks for the whole set.  Found it in a discount book store, in a bin with lots of strange live & compilation CDs of big bands and old 60s pop.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on January 03, 2010, 03:30:02 PM
Quote from: jwinter on January 03, 2010, 03:14:25 PM
Purchase and tip of the day:  should you happen to see a super-cheapie 4 disc box called "Bach: The Well-Tempered Piano" on Kannon Records, which gives no indication at all on the outside as to who's performing, it's actually the full WTC on harpsichord by Christiane Jaccottet. 

On first listen I think the performances are fine, and very well-recorded.   I'm quite pleased, particularly since I paid less than 5 bucks for the whole set.  Found it in a discount book store, in a bin with lots of strange live & compilation CDs of big bands and old 60s pop.

The late Christiane Jaccottet was an outstanding harpsichordist IMO.  I have a number of her recordings on works by JS Bach on LP and on CD.  It was not until a few months ago I was able to get "probably" all the Bach keyboard works she had recorded through this set, which I got for around $20 before shipping (set is going for almost $117 now).  However, the most important finds for me were the WTC Books 1 & 2 ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51p63cCYYLL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jwinter on January 03, 2010, 03:46:40 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 03, 2010, 03:30:02 PM
The late Christiane Jaccottet was an outstanding harpsichordist IMO.  I have a number of her recordings on works by JS Bach on LP and on CD.  It was not until a few months ago I was able to get "probably" all the Bach keyboard works she had recorded through this set, which I got for around $20 before shipping (set is going for almost $117 now).  However, the most important finds for me were the WTC Books 1 & 2 ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51p63cCYYLL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Thanks for the info!  I was quite pleasantly surprised by the contents -- I was assuming it would be on piano, given the title and the picture on the box, and took a shot.  Nicely fills a hole for me -- the only WTC on harpsichord I had was Leon Berben in the Brilliant Bach set, and an MP3 of Davitt Maroney that I ripped from the library ages ago.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on January 03, 2010, 03:58:02 PM
Quote from: jwinter on January 03, 2010, 03:46:40 PM
Thanks for the info!  I was quite pleasantly surprised by the contents -- I was assuming it would be on piano, given the title and the picture on the box, and took a shot.  Nicely fills a hole for me -- the only WTC on harpsichord I had was Leon Berben in the Brilliant Bach set, and an MP3 of Davitt Maroney that I ripped from the library ages ago.

I am not familiar with Leon Berben, a quick google shows that he is pretty young.  I have the following set by Davitt Moroney, who is an excellent harpsichordist.  I just love the interpretation Christiane Jaccottet had for the WTC and how the performance flowed ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41G1E0CXKVL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on January 04, 2010, 10:30:23 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 03, 2010, 03:30:02 PM
The late Christiane Jaccottet was an outstanding harpsichordist IMO.  I have a number of her recordings on works by JS Bach on LP and on CD.  It was not until a few months ago I was able to get "probably" all the Bach keyboard works she had recorded through this set, which I got for around $20 before shipping (set is going for almost $117 now).  However, the most important finds for me were the WTC Books 1 & 2 ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51p63cCYYLL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Quote from: jwinter on January 03, 2010, 03:46:40 PM
Thanks for the info!  I was quite pleasantly surprised by the contents -- I was assuming it would be on piano, given the title and the picture on the box, and took a shot.  Nicely fills a hole for me -- the only WTC on harpsichord I had was Leon Berben in the Brilliant Bach set, and an MP3 of Davitt Maroney that I ripped from the library ages ago.

The "Well Tempered Piano" as well as Jaccottet's Goldbergs are available at Itunes for a lot less than $119.   ;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 04, 2010, 12:53:57 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 03, 2010, 03:30:02 PM
The late Christiane Jaccottet ..I was able to get "probably" all the Bach keyboard works she had recorded through this set,

As I told you before, three CDs with "odd" harpsichord works are missing from the set as well as her recording of the harpsichord concertos.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 04, 2010, 12:59:16 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 03, 2010, 03:58:02 PM
I am not familiar with Leon Berben, a quick google shows that he is pretty young. 

He was young at the time of the recording of the WTC, which accordingly is rather immature. He has matured since, and his recent recording of the Bach Toccatas manualiter is excellent.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 04, 2010, 01:00:50 PM
Quote from: Que on January 03, 2010, 02:01:10 AM
Sofar I've not been entirely convinced by Staier's Bach. ::) I think the man is a Classicist.  :)

Exactly my thoughts.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 04, 2010, 03:53:18 PM
Quote from: premont on January 04, 2010, 12:53:57 PM
As I told you before, three CDs with "odd" harpsichord works are missing from the set as well as her recording of the harpsichord concertos.

How many of those "odd" harpsichord works are played on lute-harpsichord, Premont? I am sure they are not currently available, but I am curious about what label issued those works?

BTW, I have seen a 3-CD set with Jaccottet's harpsichord concertos on Concerto Royale (is it a pirate label?).   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 05, 2010, 06:13:24 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 04, 2010, 03:53:18 PM
How many of those "odd" harpsichord works are played on lute-harpsichord, Premont? I am sure they are not currently available, but I am curious about what label issued those works?

Of the three CDs (label Intercord) with odd works I only own one, the one with works played on lute-harpsichord, which are:

Suite E-major       BWV 1006a (after the third Partita for solo violin)
Suite e-minor       BWV   996
Suite g-minor       BWV   995   (after the fifth Suite for solo violoncello)
Prelude, Fugue and Allegro Es-major  BWV 998
Musette D-major BWV Anhang 126 (Clavierbüchlein A M Bach)

The two other CDs (played on harpsichord) contain if IRRC among other works the Fantasy and Fugue a-minor BWV 904, the Fantasy c-minor BWV 906 and the two Suites in French style BWV 808 a-minor and 809 Es-major.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 04, 2010, 03:53:18 PM
BTW, I have seen a 3-CD set with Jaccottet's harpsichord concertos on Concerto Royale (is it a pirate label?).

This 3 CD Concerto Royale set contains the WTC book II, the Fifth and Sixth French Suite and the French Ouverture. I do not know the exact relation between Concerto Royale and Intercord, but I know positively, that Concerto Royale has released quite a number of Vox recordings without any kind of license from Vox, among others the "complete" Bach harpsichord concertos with Christiane Jaccottet (omitting BTW the d-minor concerto BWV 1052 for some unknown reason).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 06, 2010, 01:24:20 AM
Quote from: premont on January 05, 2010, 06:13:24 AM
Of the three CDs (label Intercord)...

Thanks for the detailed information, Premont. It is really very useful in the confusion of Jaccottet's discography.  :)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 06, 2010, 06:37:27 AM
Just arrived at my doorstep this morning!

Bach, JS - WTC II w/ Peter Watchorn on the pedal harpsichord; 3-CDs packaged in a cardboard foldout w/ an interesting plastic flip device for the discs - overall the package is just slightly thicker than a single jewel box!  Have not begun my listening yet -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachWTCIIWatchornA/758744700_Cj5Ky-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on January 06, 2010, 06:54:24 PM
Quote from: premont on January 04, 2010, 12:53:57 PM
As I told you before, three CDs with "odd" harpsichord works are missing from the set as well as her recording of the harpsichord concertos.

My focus has always been on Jaccottet's solo performance and I have more than enough HIP Bach Harpsichord Concertos to more than offset a few that were no doubt non-HIP performances anyway ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 10, 2010, 08:48:09 AM
Just to mention again a well-discussed performer on this thread,  Robert Hill - this 2-CD offering has him performing on the harpsichord (entire first disc; one work on second disc), lautenwerk (or lute-harpsichord, i.e. gut strung harpsichord), and clavichord (latter two instruments on the second disc).

The sources for this music are varied; the first disc contains transcriptions of the solo violin partitas/sonatas, one by Hill (BWV 1104) and the other two by Bach; the other disc has several works written specifically for solo clavier, several Bach adaptations, and a final Hill transcription (BWV 1001) of a solo violin work.

This set now complements the other two that I own w/ him (Art of Fugue & Lautenwerk disc - currently at BRO for $8!  :D


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachHill2CDs/760904753_2XEtq-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DarkAngel on January 13, 2010, 06:08:57 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S0MaVrgzL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) 

I purchased this 2008 release by Staier which contains early works by a young Bach not included in the boxset, very vital exciting performance that makes you wonder why almost everyone else sounds so restrained. I know some more traditional Bach fans will dismiss this as pure showmanship, for me it is a revelation and pushes the envelope in a positive way for Bach solo keyboard works  ;)

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/82876673782.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on January 13, 2010, 07:03:36 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 10, 2010, 08:48:09 AM
Just to mention again a well-discussed performer on this thread,  Robert Hill - this 2-CD offering has him performing on the harpsichord (entire first disc; one work on second disc), lautenwerk (or lute-harpsichord, i.e. gut strung harpsichord), and clavichord (latter two instruments on the second disc).

The sources for this music are varied; the first disc contains transcriptions of the solo violin partitas/sonatas, one by Hill (BWV 1104) and the other two by Bach; the other disc has several works written specifically for solo clavier, several Bach adaptations, and a final Hill transcription (BWV 1001) of a solo violin work.

This set now complements the other two that I own w/ him (Art of Fugue & Lautenwerk disc - currently at BRO for $8!  :D


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachHill2CDs/760904753_2XEtq-O.jpg)

I have noticed BRO often has these Hanssler recordings at major discount.  I will probably place my third BRO order at the end of this month.  At these prices, I always tend to buy at least 20 CD's per order ...    ;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on January 13, 2010, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 13, 2010, 07:03:36 PM
I have noticed BRO often has these Hanssler recordings at major discount.  I will probably place my third BRO order at the end of this month.  At these prices, I always tend to buy at least 20 CD's per order ...    ;)

All the issues of Bach's solo keyboard music on Hänssler with Robert Hill are highly recommendable! I also like the multiple performer series with the organ works.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on January 16, 2010, 11:16:42 AM
Quote from: Que on January 13, 2010, 10:56:36 PM
All the issues of Bach's solo keyboard music on Hänssler with Robert Hill are highly recommendable! I also like the multiple performer series with the organ works.

Q

Agreed.  I bought up all the solo keyboard recordings in the series; my only disappointment was Kay Johannsen.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: The new erato on February 08, 2010, 01:13:16 PM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/AM196.jpg)

6 CD box set, cheap!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bunny on February 12, 2010, 05:05:55 PM
Quote from: erato on February 08, 2010, 01:13:16 PM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/AM196.jpg)

6 CD box set, cheap!

That's the collected French Suites, English Suites, and Klavierbüchlein für Wilhelm Friedrich -- quite a nice set.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 11, 2010, 05:17:05 AM
I'm sure that this disk has been discussed, but scanning 41 pages for the review is too much, even for the Gurnatron 5500TM. :)  So anyway, I just ran across this item and picked it up out of sheer curiosity (plus I like the tocattas!).

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Tocattacover.jpg)

So, is it a famous winner or a sad tribute to losers?  ;)  Time will tell.

8)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 11, 2010, 03:14:46 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 13, 2010, 07:03:36 PM
I have noticed BRO often has these Hanssler recordings at major discount.  I will probably place my third BRO order at the end of this month.  At these prices, I always tend to buy at least 20 CD's per order ...    ;)

Stuart - yep - just picked up a recommendation of the Bach Partitas w/ Weiss on harpsichord, but added 3 other CDs to counteract the S/H which is pretty cheap anyway from this place - happy hunting! Dave  :D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 15, 2010, 04:30:03 PM
(http://www.resmusica.com/images/alpha_bach_alard.jpg)

After his excellent organ trio sonatas the young Benjamin Alard have recorded the complete Clavier-Übung I.

Here his live performance of Bach's Partita No.3 in A minor, BWV 827:

1.- Fantasia:

http://www.youtube.com/v/9LQ1DpwK-GA


2.- Allemande:

http://www.youtube.com/v/eGmNq848gsY


3.- Courante:

http://www.youtube.com/v/eSgsLAmVu9o


4.- Sarabanda:

http://www.youtube.com/v/EAbn5NkiIwQ


5.- Burlesca & Scherzo:

http://www.youtube.com/v/3kDFqJbShWY


6.- Gigue

http://www.youtube.com/v/fL52wkAqGik


Enjoy! (despite the low sound quality)  :)




Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on May 16, 2010, 12:18:43 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 15, 2010, 04:30:03 PM
(http://www.resmusica.com/images/alpha_bach_alard.jpg)

After his excellent organ trio sonatas the young Benjamin Alard have recorded the complete Clavier-Übung I.

I have sampled that set a while ago and were, and remain so after these samples, unconvinced.  ::) This seemingly overly academic and somewhat "wooden" approach (he "brakes down" the music without keeping proper impetus IMO) pales next to Rousset's (Decca) elegance, imagination and vigor.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DarkAngel on May 16, 2010, 06:51:46 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 15, 2010, 04:30:03 PM
(http://www.resmusica.com/images/alpha_bach_alard.jpg)

After his excellent organ trio sonatas the young Benjamin Alard have recorded the complete Clavier-Übung I.

Here his live performance of Bach's Partita No.3 in A minor, BWV 827:

Hmmmmm.......think I will also pass on these harpsichord partitas
a bit too straight forward and earth bound for me, seems to be just causually playing them and not giving us an inspired rendition. My favorite harpsichord partitas are the dramatic Scott Ross and Andreas Staier sets (Staier boxset mentioned above previously), Rousset Decca boxset not far behind

As for Roussett I think in general his early Decca/Lyre Bach recordings done when he was younger are very good but have been eclipsed overall by his own excellent new recordings for Ambroisie label, he has raised the bar even higher. We just need to wait for more Ambroise recordings to appear (partitas, goldberg, WTC etc), the current Ambroisie boxset is an absolute essential Bach purchase and at reduced price a must own harpsichord document........

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/AM196.jpg)

I purchased the full price individual digipak releases from this set when first released, must take solace in knowing that I have beautiful artwork of these lushly packaged releases to cherish

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2010, 07:48:10 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on May 16, 2010, 06:51:46 AM

Hmmmmm.......think I will also pass on these harpsichord partitas
a bit too straight forward and earth bound for me, seems to be just causually playing them and not giving us an inspired rendition. My favorite harpsichord partitas are the dramatic Scott Ross and Andreas Staier sets (Staier boxset mentioned above previously), Rousset Decca boxset not far behind

As for Roussett I think in general his early Decca/Lyre Bach recordings done when he was younger are very good but have been eclipsed overall by his own excellent new recordings for Ambroisie label, he has raised the bar even higher. We just need to wait for more Ambroise recordings to appear (partitas, goldberg, WTC etc), the current Ambroisie boxset is an absolute essential Bach purchase and at reduced price a must own harpsichord document........

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/AM196.jpg)

I purchased the full price individual digipak releases from this set when first released, must take solace in knowing that I have beautiful artwork of these lushly packaged releases to cherish

I was impressed with Rousset going back to the days when he performed with the AAM under Christopher Hogwood.  The CD's of Bach Concertos for 3 & 4 harpsichords and Harpsichord Concertos are nothing short of fabulous IMO ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41A9FBNW3YL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2010, 07:56:23 AM
Quote from: Que on May 16, 2010, 12:18:43 AM
I have sampled that set a while ago and were, and remain so after these samples, unconvinced.  ::) This seemingly overly academic and somewhat "wooden" approach (he "brakes down" the music without keeping proper impetus IMO) pales next to Rousset's (Decca) elegance, imagination and vigor.

Q

Q,  I trust your judgment.  I am only after the tried and true performers.  There are just so many keyboard artists out there and not everyone can be a true virtuoso, who has to be more than just technically flawless to deserve such accolade.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2010, 08:19:00 AM
Just about all Christophe Rousset's CD on L'oiseau Lyre
are commanding big bucks.  Here are just a few of them ...

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Harpsichord-Concertos-concerto-Schroder/dp/B000004CYP/ref=sr_1_25?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1274026492&sr=1-25

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Concerto-Chromatic-LOiseau-Lyre/dp/B00000E4VY/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1274025957&sr=1-21

http://www.amazon.com/Christophe-Rousset-Bach-Goldberg-Variations/dp/B000004CYL/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1274025957&sr=1-16
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on May 16, 2010, 08:19:34 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 15, 2010, 04:30:03 PM
(http://www.resmusica.com/images/alpha_bach_alard.jpg)

After his excellent organ trio sonatas the young Benjamin Alard have recorded the complete Clavier-Übung I.

Thanks for the samples.  I enjoyed them except for the Fantasia and Gigue; those performances could use greater vibrancy and faster tempos.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 16, 2010, 01:10:27 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 16, 2010, 08:19:34 AM
Thanks for the samples.  I enjoyed them except for the Fantasia and Gigue; those performances could use greater vibrancy and faster tempos.

You're welcome, Don. I also enjoyed them.

Apparently, the Fantasia and Gigue sound more satisfactory in the CD (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Partiten-BWV-825-860/hnum/3547428).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 16, 2010, 01:24:17 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 16, 2010, 07:56:23 AM
Q,  I trust your judgment.  I am only after the tried and true performers.  There are just so many keyboard artists out there and not everyone can be a true virtuoso, who has to be more than just technically flawless to deserve such accolade.

I find this statement totally incomprehensible. Why a music lover should accept another's member judgment, when he can listen to exactly the same samples or watch the same videos. After all, Q has said that he has only heard some samples online and, apparently, he hasn't listened to Benjamin Alard before (for example, his excellent organ sonatas). 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 16, 2010, 01:37:29 PM
Quote from: Que on May 16, 2010, 12:18:43 AM
I have sampled that set a while ago and were, and remain so after these samples, unconvinced.  ::) This seemingly overly academic and somewhat "wooden" approach (he "brakes down" the music without keeping proper impetus IMO) pales next to Rousset's (Decca) elegance, imagination and vigor.

Surprising. I own two Bach CDs by Benjamin Allard (not the Partitas though), and in these I think he manages very well to use his scholarship and his inagination in a fruitful way, without breaking the music down.

And while we are at Rousset, IMO his Bach Partita´s pale next to Suzuki´s and Walcha´s passion, Haugsands imagination, Mortensens colourfulness, Gilbert´s elegance, Leonhardts expressiveness, Ross´vigor -and I could go on.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on May 17, 2010, 04:27:29 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 15, 2010, 04:30:03 PM
(http://www.resmusica.com/images/alpha_bach_alard.jpg)

After his excellent organ trio sonatas the young Benjamin Alard have recorded the complete Clavier-Übung I.

Here his live performance of Bach's Partita No.3 in A minor, BWV 827: [....]

Enjoy! (despite the low sound quality) :)
Thanks for posting these!
I enjoy his reading of the Trio Sonatas, and my first impressions of this Partita are positive, too.

Such beautiful music anyhow, apart from any personal preference. :)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on May 17, 2010, 07:56:00 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 16, 2010, 07:56:23 AM
Q,  I trust your judgment.  I am only after the tried and true performers. 

First, Alard is "tried and true".  His recordings for Hortus and Alpha have received much praise.

Second, one of the exciting aspects of classical music is discovering new composers and artists.

Third, are you such a lazy listener that you allow others to do the listening for you?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Scarpia on May 17, 2010, 11:31:22 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 17, 2010, 07:56:00 AM
First, Alard is "tried and true".  His recordings for Hortus and Alpha have received much praise.

Second, one of the exciting aspects of classical music is discovering new composers and artists.

Third, are you such a lazy listener that you allow others to do the listening for you?

Hmmm, maybe you're on to something.  He claims to work 14 hours a day, and the listening thread seems to indicate 12 hours listening per day.  Perhaps he has an entire staff listening to all these recordings for him.   ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on May 17, 2010, 12:22:07 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 17, 2010, 11:31:22 AM
Hmmm, maybe you're on to something.  He claims to work 14 hours a day, and the listening thread seems to indicate 12 hours listening per day.  Perhaps he has an entire staff listening to all these recordings for him.   ;D

That's a good one. ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 17, 2010, 12:58:31 PM
Keyboard Patitas w/ Kenneth Weiss on the harpsichord - a 2-CD set from BRO (just $14 and still available at present) - I was prompted to buy this performance from a superlative review in Fanfare reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=72816); excellent liner notes and plenty of information on the Satirino Website HERE (http://www.satirino.fr/eng_rec_sr011.php), including a description of the harpsichord used (quoted below) -  :D

But out of curiosity, I wanted to look at some other reviews, and found a rather 'negative' one on the Bach Cantata Site (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-Partitas-Weiss-Kirk.htm) - now I do not know this reviewer (attention - Don!), but I must say that these discrepant opinions (in fact, a 2010 Disc from the Year for the Fanfare review!) always interests me?

At present, I'm listening to the second disc of these set; indeed, the harpsichord is just superb to my ears - I'm really enjoying this performance - will keep the set (my other performance is Rousset in a box I own - have not done any comparisons) - will be quite curious of the thoughts from fellow members here - thanks!  ;D


QuoteThe Harpsichord on this recording is from the Anthony Sidey workshop, based on a mid-18th-century German instrument from the Gottfried Silbermann workshop. It was built in Paris in 1995 by Anthony Sidey and Frédéric Bal and was tuned for the present recording by Anthony Sidey.

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachPartitasWeiss/863184249_SXcsj-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Scarpia on May 17, 2010, 01:31:48 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 17, 2010, 12:58:31 PM
Keyboard Patitas w/ Kenneth Weiss on the harpsichord - a 2-CD set from BRO (just $14 and still available at present) - I was prompted to buy this performance from a superlative review in Fanfare reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=72816); excellent liner notes and plenty of information on the Satirino Website HERE (http://www.satirino.fr/eng_rec_sr011.php), including a description of the harpsichord used (quoted below) -  :D

But out of curiosity, I wanted to look at some other reviews, and found a rather 'negative' one on the Bach Cantata Site (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-Partitas-Weiss-Kirk.htm) - now I do not know this reviewer (attention - Don!), but I must say that these discrepant opinions (in fact, a 2010 Disc from the Year for the Fanfare review!) always interests me?

At present, I'm listening to the second disc of these set; indeed, the harpsichord is just superb to my ears - I'm really enjoying this performance - will keep the set (my other performance is Rousset in a box I own - have not done any comparisons) - will be quite curious of the thoughts from fellow members here - thanks!  ;D


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachPartitasWeiss/863184249_SXcsj-O.jpg)

I can understand reading reviews before you have heard the set, particularly if you are trying to decide whether to get the set or another.  Buy what interest is there in reviews after you have heard it for yourself?   If you have your own opinion of the recording, why give a fig whether every review every published confirms your opinion?


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on May 17, 2010, 02:03:00 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 17, 2010, 12:58:31 PM
Keyboard Patitas w/ Kenneth Weiss on the harpsichord - a 2-CD set from BRO (just $14 and still available at present) - I was prompted to buy this performance from a superlative review in Fanfare reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=72816); excellent liner notes and plenty of information on the Satirino Website HERE (http://www.satirino.fr/eng_rec_sr011.php), including a description of the harpsichord used (quoted below) -  :D

But out of curiosity, I wanted to look at some other reviews, and found a rather 'negative' one on the Bach Cantata Site (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-Partitas-Weiss-Kirk.htm) - now I do not know this reviewer (attention - Don!), but I must say that these discrepant opinions (in fact, a 2010 Disc from the Year for the Fanfare review!) always interests me?

I know the person who wrote that review on the Bach Cantata Site and the person who wrote the feedback.  Both are highly informed Bach enthusiasts who often review Bach recordings.  That being said, their opinions are just that, as is the opinion of the Fanfare reviewer.  Since SonicMan already has the Weiss set and enjoys it, his opinion is the only one that counts (for him).

Edit:  I happened to find on the internet that Weiss has twice recorded the Goldbergs: once back in the late 1990's and more recently for Satirino.  Anyone familiar with either disc?

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 17, 2010, 02:31:15 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 17, 2010, 02:03:00 PM
I know the person who wrote that review on the Bach Cantata Site and the person who wrote the feedback.  Both are highly informed Bach enthusiasts who often review Bach recordings.  That being said, their opinions are just that, as is the opinion of the Fanfare reviewer.  Since SonicMan already has the Weiss set and enjoys it, his opinion is the only one that counts (for him).

Scarpia & Don - thanks for your thoughts - not a problem for me at all!  I agree w/ the Fanfare reviewer - this is an excellent set on a well-listening harpsichord, and I enjoy this performer's interpretations - maybe I like his 'slow vs. faster' movement interpretations.

But, just wanted to obtain thoughts from others 'for the record' - others who may not own these recordings, esp. in harpsichord versions, may appreciate a 'conglomerate opinion' in deciding on a purchase - that was my reason for leaving a post here  - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2010, 04:53:43 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 17, 2010, 11:31:22 AM
Hmmm, maybe you're on to something.  He claims to work 14 hours a day, and the listening thread seems to indicate 12 hours listening per day.  Perhaps he has an entire staff listening to all these recordings for him.   ;D

First, my 14-hour workday does not include the weekend.  Second, my goal has always been to put together the most comprehensive classical music library spanning the early music through early 20th century for myself.  While my total CD's and LP's in works of Bach are approaching 1500, I also have over 25 Beethoven cycles, 4 Bruckner cycles, 4 Mahler cycles and 4 Wagner Rings, almost all the Handel oratorios and operas and the list goes on.  I do not care to own every Bach organ recording, I am highly selective, period.  8 Complete Bach Organ Works that include Walcha (2), Koopman, Rogg, Hurford, Weinberger, jacob and most of second cycle by Marie-Claire Alain plus numerous individual recordings by Preston, Rubsam, etc. are enough for me.

Jealousy certainly does not get you very far, buddy.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on May 18, 2010, 06:35:20 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 17, 2010, 04:53:43 PM
First, my 14-hour workday does not include the weekend.  Second, my goal has always been to put together the most comprehensive classical music library spanning the early music through early 20th century for myself.  While my total CD's and LP's in works of Bach are approaching 1500, I also have over 25 Beethoven cycles, 4 Bruckner cycles, 4 Mahler cycles and 4 Wagner Rings, almost all the Handel oratorios and operas and the list goes on.  I do not care to own every Bach organ recording, I am highly selective, period.  8 Complete Bach Organ Works that include Walcha (2), Koopman, Rogg, Hurford, Weinberger, jacob and most of second cycle by Marie-Claire Alain plus numerous individual recordings by Preston, Rubsam, etc. are enough for me.

Jealousy certainly does not get you very far, buddy.

Nobody said you didn't have a fine record collection, so you can stop bragging.  Most of us have the collections we want and would not entertain switching them with any other member's collection.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on May 19, 2010, 09:17:50 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 17, 2010, 02:03:00 PM
I know the person who wrote that review on the Bach Cantata Site and the person who wrote the feedback.  Both are highly informed Bach enthusiasts who often review Bach recordings.  That being said, their opinions are just that, as is the opinion of the Fanfare reviewer.  Since SonicMan already has the Weiss set and enjoys it, his opinion is the only one that counts (for him).

Edit:  I happened to find on the internet that Weiss has twice recorded the Goldbergs: once back in the late 1990's and more recently for Satirino.  Anyone familiar with either disc?

Well, I'm now familiar with both Weiss Goldbergs.  I think the earlier one can be dismissed: tempos that are too quick and disagreeable harpsichord sound.  However, the Satirino version is wonderful; after just three variations I knew that the performances were entirely in my comfort zone.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on May 19, 2010, 09:45:35 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 18, 2010, 06:35:20 AM
Nobody said you didn't have a fine record collection, so you can stop bragging.  Most of us have the collections we want and would not entertain switching them with any other member's collection.
Mmm, I think I might like your collection though .... or Premont's .... or Harry's!! :)

Seriously now: I like to read reviews, before and after purchasing them myself (or just after listening).

If a certain composer or genre is reviewed by the mostly the same person(s), I can get quite a good idea about their opinions and therefore also if a certain disc will be satisfying. And, after buying, it's nice to read what others think about it. Sometimes reviewers mention things that I did not discover myself. Mind you, I also abuse this board for these reasons. ;)

But, it's true: in the end, it's my own listening experience, my own taste and my own opinion that counts. Sometimes these can change though. That's why I very rarely throw discs in the dustbin .... if ever.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on May 19, 2010, 10:27:52 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 19, 2010, 09:45:35 AM
Mmm, I think I might like your collection though .... or Premont's .... or Harry's!! :)

Seriously now: I like to read reviews, before and after purchasing them myself (or just after listening).

Me also.  I read reviews just for the enjoyment of it, so it makes no difference whether I've acquired the recording or not.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 04, 2010, 08:22:47 AM
Johann Sebastian Bach – Partitas. Clavier-Übung I (1731) BWV 825-830
Pascal Dubreuil (harpsichord)
Instrument: Titus Crijnen (Amsterdam, 1996) after Hans Ruckers II (1624)
Recorded in October 2007 at the Church of Notre-Dame de l'Assomption Basse-Bodeux, Belgium
2-CD set
Ramée   

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514dvKHI%2BYL._SL500_.jpg)

(http://www.ramee.org/images/pascal2.jpg)

"The publication of the Partitas led to some ferment among music lovers in Germany. Some praised the works, others criticized them, but always in terms which suggest that they represented a turning point in harpsichord composition. Following the lead of the theoretician Johann Mattheson, the critics' principal complaint was the extreme technical demands, and the complexity of writing. In his biography of Bach, Johann Nikolaus Forkel writes of the Partitas: »One has hitherto seldom seen or heard harpsichord compositions of such excellence. He who learned to play some of these pieces well, was able to do well with them in the world; and even in our time a young artist can gain honour with them - brilliant, pleasing, expressive, and constantly fresh as they are.«

As noted in the quote above, the Partitas are among Bach's most technically demanding works for harpsichord, but Pascal Dubreuil succeeds to create a sensation of effortless fluency here. I have felt that this version combines to high degree two aspects very difficult to combine: Rhetoric expressivity and a deep knowledge of the structure and nature of the dances that make up every Partita (spoken word/dance). Additionally, the recorded sound and the instrument are just excellent and nice and erudite notes are provided. Enthusiastically recommended.  :)


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on July 04, 2010, 09:44:15 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on July 04, 2010, 08:22:47 AM
Johann Sebastian Bach – Partitas. Clavier-Übung I (1731) BWV 825-830
Pascal Dubreuil (harpsichord)
Instrument: Titus Crijnen (Amsterdam, 1996) after Hans Ruckers II (1624)
Recorded in October 2007 at the Church of Notre-Dame de l'Assomption Basse-Bodeux, Belgium
2-CD set
Ramée   

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514dvKHI%2BYL._SL500_.jpg)

(http://www.ramee.org/images/pascal2.jpg)

"The publication of the Partitas led to some ferment among music lovers in Germany. Some praised the works, others criticized them, but always in terms which suggest that they represented a turning point in harpsichord composition. Following the lead of the theoretician Johann Mattheson, the critics' principal complaint was the extreme technical demands, and the complexity of writing. In his biography of Bach, Johann Nikolaus Forkel writes of the Partitas: »One has hitherto seldom seen or heard harpsichord compositions of such excellence. He who learned to play some of these pieces well, was able to do well with them in the world; and even in our time a young artist can gain honour with them - brilliant, pleasing, expressive, and constantly fresh as they are.«

As noted in the quote above, the Partitas are among Bach's most technically demanding works for harpsichord, but Pascal Dubreuil succeeds to create a sensation of effortless fluency here. I have felt that this version combines to high degree two aspects very difficult to combine: Rhetoric expressivity and a deep knowledge of the structure and nature of the dances that make up every Partita (spoken word/dance). Additionally, the recorded sound and the instrument are just excellent and nice and erudite notes are provided. Enthusiastically recommended.  :)

I just listened to the samples on the Ramee website - highly rewarding.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 04, 2010, 03:25:37 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on July 04, 2010, 09:44:15 AM
I just listened to the samples on the Ramee website - highly rewarding.

Here two examples on You Tube (poor sound quality, sorry):


http://www.youtube.com/v/nWtivySqOw4


http://www.youtube.com/v/cnPKi7cWAFc

 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bassio on August 08, 2010, 05:10:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/D3pxaIiSujQ


Enough said.  8)

(Any information/reviews about the recording/ensemble/harpsichordist is welcome.)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 09, 2010, 10:25:58 AM
Quote from: bassio on August 08, 2010, 05:10:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/D3pxaIiSujQ

Enough said.  8)

(Any information/reviews about the recording/ensemble/harpsichordist is welcome.)

One of the most demential and confused versions I've heard in some time, bassio. If that is the Allegro, I can't really imagine the Presto of the same concerto...

I would try Leonhardt/Leonhardt Consort or Asperen/Melante Amsterdam:


http://www.youtube.com/v/dVtA2F8A9zc
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 16, 2010, 09:09:18 AM
Any opinion about the WTC by Daniel Chorzempa? It's a complete 4-CD set played on harpsichord, clavichord, organ and fortepiano. Although I am not generally a fan of Chorzempa, I have been listening some excerpts and it seems a rather enticing, "intimate" lecture.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on September 06, 2010, 10:31:08 AM
Can anyone provide information (make/type) about the harpsichord played by Herbert Tachezi in the CMW's recording of the Musical Offering? My copy (a recent re-issue) does not contain any, and my best effort at searching with Google was fruitless.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on September 09, 2010, 11:16:48 AM
Did Wilson use a different instrument (I mean, a lute-harpsichord instead of a harpsichord) for the F minor prelude from Book II? ???
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on September 09, 2010, 12:08:37 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 09, 2010, 11:16:48 AM
Did Wilson use a different instrument (I mean, a lute-harpsichord instead of a harpsichord) for the F minor prelude from Book II? ???

No, but a good question.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on September 09, 2010, 12:38:49 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on September 09, 2010, 12:08:37 PM
No, but a good question.

So he just played it in a way that makes it sound like one, then? Amazing, if that's the case.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on September 09, 2010, 12:52:35 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 09, 2010, 12:38:49 PM
So he just played it in a way that makes it sound like one, then? Amazing, if that's the case.

Perhaps, but if you listen closely to that particular Wilson prelude and then switch to a lute-harpsichord recording, you'll notice a difference.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on September 09, 2010, 12:57:24 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on September 09, 2010, 12:52:35 PM
Perhaps, but if you listen closely to that particular Wilson prelude and then switch to a lute-harpsichord recording, you'll notice a difference.

Thanks. Will check that out.

Of course, I'm still wondering why that particular piece has been made to stand out like that. ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Scarpia on September 09, 2010, 01:35:46 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 09, 2010, 12:38:49 PM
So he just played it in a way that makes it sound like one, then? Amazing, if that's the case.

Some harpsichords have multiple choirs of strings.  He might have switched to a different configuration for that particular prelude.  The harpsichord action doesn't allow for much change in tone due to touch, so a change in the keyboard coupling would be the most likely explanation.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Drasko on September 09, 2010, 03:04:33 PM
He probably used buff stop, or at least that is how description sounds to me.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Scarpia on September 09, 2010, 06:24:26 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 06, 2010, 10:31:08 AM
Can anyone provide information (make/type) about the harpsichord played by Herbert Tachezi in the CMW's recording of the Musical Offering? My copy (a recent re-issue) does not contain any, and my best effort at searching with Google was fruitless.

I have the set on LP.  The notes say:

Cembali: R. Schutze, Heidelberg, in niederlandischer Bauweise
Martin Skowroneck, Bremen, nach einem italieniscen Instrument um 1720
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on September 09, 2010, 09:38:45 PM
Quote from: Drasko on September 09, 2010, 03:04:33 PM
He probably used buff stop, or at least that is how description sounds to me.

Yes indeed, the use of a buff stop or lute-stop, seems to me likely.

From the Encyclopeadia Britannica:
..register controlled by both manuals, using the lute stop for the upper manual and leaving the lower manual with its own unison register. Many harpsichords of all countries were also equipped with a buff stop (sometimes also called a lute stop), a device that presses pieces of soft leather against one of the sets of unisonstrings, producing a muted, pizzicato tone.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on September 09, 2010, 10:24:54 PM
Thanks for the input, gentlemen. The track is available on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlxF5zm98IY. Also, found a discussion on this very issue at another forum (http://haydnesque.createforum.net/phpbb2/haydnesque-post-15658.html) (it forms the second half of the thread); it turns out that he indeed used a lute-stop. (Now, off to Wikipedia I go, to delve into the mechanics of the harpsichord.)

Quote from: Scarpia on September 09, 2010, 06:24:26 PM
I have the set on LP.  The notes say:

Cembali: R. Schutze, Heidelberg, in niederlandischer Bauweise
Martin Skowroneck, Bremen, nach einem italieniscen Instrument um 1720

Thanks again, Scarpia. I've grown to love the sound of the instrument in that particular recording. I don't know whether it has anything to do with the music as such, but I'd like to search for performances of other works that uses the same or a similar instrument.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on December 04, 2010, 07:16:36 AM
What's up with Rousset's latest Bach effort? :)

It does seem his switch of label is definitive BTW.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414scU0BrpL.jpg)

Fantasia in A minor BWV922; Fantasia & Fugue in A minor BWV904; Prelude & Fugue in F major BWV901; Capriccio sopra la lontananza des fratello dilettissimo BWV992; Prelude Fugue & Allegro in E flat major BWV998; Adagio in G major from Violin Sonata in C major BWV968; Prelude & Fughetta in G major BWV902; Prelude & Fugue in A minor BWV894; Aria variata in A minor BWV989.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Clever Hans on December 04, 2010, 08:51:07 AM
Quote from: Que on December 04, 2010, 07:16:36 AM
What's up with Rousset's latest Bach effort? :)

Well it received a Diapason d'Or.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 04, 2010, 12:47:57 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on December 04, 2010, 08:51:07 AM
Well it received a Diapason d'Or.

Oh yes, but that prize is only the "Certificate of Origin" of French discs.  ;D 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Clever Hans on December 04, 2010, 01:17:01 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 04, 2010, 12:47:57 PM
Oh yes, but that prize is only the "Certificate of Origin" of French discs.  ;D

Indeed, but they are certainly more reliable and less guilty of favoritism than the Gramophone. They are also more consistent, not contradicting previous reviews or editorials every five years.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: czgirb on December 22, 2010, 04:14:50 PM
So ... what is the recommendation records for:
* Harpsichord Concertos ...
* English Suite ...
* French Suite ...

Regarding to Well-Tempered ... I own Gould, Landowska, Schiff (Decca), & Turreck (a gift from my sister)
Regarding to Rosalyn Tureck ... amazon.com said it was labeled "New Style", but I don't know how it sound quality if compare to DGG or BBC ... can someone inform me?
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Well-Tempered-Clavier/dp/B000AC5EG8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1293066677&sr=1-3
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on December 22, 2010, 05:40:39 PM
Quote from: czgirb on December 22, 2010, 04:14:50 PM
So ... what is the recommendation records for:
* Keyboard Concertos ... Angela Hewitt (if you don't mind the modern piano) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000E1XOVC/nectarandambr-20) ...otherwise maybe Egarr / Manze / Harmonia Mundi or Rousset / Hogwood / Decca
* English Suites... Blandine Rannou (ZigZag) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000092OX8/goodmusicguide-20) or, on the piano, Andrea Bacchetti
* French Suites ... Christophe Rousset (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002ONGXV6/goodmusicguide-20) (also available singly (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000C8WXZ/goodmusicguide-20))

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on January 23, 2011, 04:59:18 AM
As per usual, I can't find the Bach/Harpsichord thread. :-(


A New Label for Christophe Rousset
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2640



(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Neuchatel_Harpsichord_2_550.png)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2640)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on January 24, 2011, 09:42:58 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 23, 2011, 04:59:18 AM
As per usual, I can't find the Bach/Harpsichord thread. :-(

Such a neophyte... always misses the sacred incantation. ::)

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289

(Thanks for the article.)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on January 25, 2011, 03:35:25 AM
now that i was pointed in the right direction...


A New Label for Christophe Rousset
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2640



(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Neuchatel_Harpsichord_2_550.png)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2640)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 26, 2011, 09:53:30 AM
Who is the moderator who has put this thread in the composer discussion board and why?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2011, 10:40:00 AM
Quote from: premont on January 26, 2011, 09:53:30 AM
Who is the moderator who has put this thread in the composer discussion board and why?

Laß ihn kreuzigen!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 26, 2011, 10:57:38 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 26, 2011, 10:40:00 AM
Laß ihn kreuzigen!

Bien sur. Que est ce que il a fait?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on January 26, 2011, 11:35:14 AM
Quote from: premont on January 26, 2011, 10:57:38 AM
Bien sur. Que est ce que il a fait?

Marc probably never looked into the composers section.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2011, 11:41:36 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 26, 2011, 11:35:14 AM
Marc probably never looked into the composers section.

AFAIK, this thread was originally in the 'Great Recordings And Reviews' section. I'm mainly a lurker here and I enjoy it! :D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: FideLeo on January 26, 2011, 12:19:26 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 26, 2011, 11:41:36 AM
AFAIK, this thread was originally in the 'Great Recordings And Reviews' section. I'm mainly a lurker here and I enjoy it! :D

It IS in the "Great Recordings" section...Sorry, I am a bit confused by what you wrote above.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 26, 2011, 12:22:33 PM
Quote from: masolino on January 26, 2011, 12:19:26 PM
It IS in the "Great Recordings" section...Sorry, I am a bit confused by what you wrote above.

It has been put back without further comments.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2011, 12:28:36 PM
Quote from: premont on January 26, 2011, 12:22:33 PM
It has been put back without further comments.

No one wants to be crucified.

OTOH ..... aber Jesus schwieg stille. :-\

Anyway, listening to a certain Bach right now (Watchorn playing Toccatas) .... and off to bed!

This is Member Marcus sayin' good night to yez all, and God bless yez.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 22, 2011, 10:55:27 AM
Quote from: milk on April 10, 2011, 03:09:49 AM
These are some of my favorite Bach HIP recordings (does this belong in another forum?):

Bach: Partitas for Harpsichord/Masaaki Suzuki
Bach: 6 Partitas BWV 825-830/Gustav Leonhardt
Virgin Veritas - Bach: French Suites/Davitt Moroney
The French Suites/Bradley Brookshire
Bach: Variations Goldberg, BWV 988/Pierre Hantai
Variations Glodberg/Scott Ross
Bach: Goldberg Variations/Kenneth Gilbert
Bach: The Well-Tempered Clavier Books I&II/Kenneth Gilbert
The Well-Tempered Clavier/Glen Wilson
Bach: The Well Tempered Clavier/Robert Levin
Johann Sebastian Bach, the Art of Fugue BWV 1080/Christian Rieger
The Art Of The Fugue/Bradley Brookshire
Bach: English Suites/Gustav Leonhardt
Bach: Inventions and Sinfonias/Christiane Jaccottet
Bach, J.S.: Harpsichord Works/Christophe Rousset
Bach: Works for Lute Harpsicord/Robert Hill
Bach: Concertos Pour Clavecin/Bertrand Cuiller, Daniel Cuiller & Stradivaria
Bach - Complete Harpsichord Concerti on Antique Instruments/Moroney/Kim/Haas/Flint/Pearl
Bach: Harpsichord Concertos/Ottavio Dantone & Accademia Bizantina
Bach: 8 Violin Sonatas/Elizabeth Blumenstock & John Butt

Anyone have any suggestions as to the Toccatas? I have recordings by Tilney and Troeger...Perhaps I should acquire another set?

Knowing > 80% of these recordings I agree about their exellency, even if they do not always represent the ones I prefer. F.i. I find Brookshires AoF too mannered, not the least compared to Rieger, whom you mention too. Concerning the Toccatas manualiter my favorite (and Que´s) is Leon Berben. Another safe choice is van Asperen (his second recording for Teldec).

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 22, 2011, 12:22:19 PM
Quote from: premont on April 22, 2011, 10:55:27 AM
Knowing > 80% of these recordings I agree about their exellency, even if they do not always represent the ones I prefer. F.i. I find Brookshires AoF too mannered, not the least compared to Rieger, whom you mention too.

That's interesting that you consider Brookshire's AoF mannered.  I think there's validity in your opinion, although I'd prefer to call it distinctive playing.  Regardless, I do love listening to his account now and then.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 23, 2011, 03:51:09 PM
Quote from: premont on April 22, 2011, 10:55:27 AM
Knowing > 80% of these recordings I agree about their exellency, even if they do not always represent the ones I prefer. F.i. I find Brookshires AoF too mannered, not the least compared to Rieger, whom you mention too. Concerning the Toccatas manualiter my favorite (and Que´s) is Leon Berben. Another safe choice is van Asperen (his second recording for Teldec).

I can understand this point about Brookshire. I hesitated to throw it up there. The Reiger is perhaps a deeper and more reliable interpretation by far. I would also hesitate to use the term "mannered." I think Watchorn's Bach recordings are mannered. Brookshire is, in my very uneducated opinion, a lot of fun even if he's not profound. But as I say, I know so little about music. I love hearing opinions from more knowledgeable people like yourselves.   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 23, 2011, 03:59:32 PM
Quote from: premont on April 22, 2011, 10:55:27 AM
Knowing > 80% of these recordings I agree about their exellency, even if they do not always represent the ones I prefer. F.i. I find Brookshires AoF too mannered, not the least compared to Rieger, whom you mention too. Concerning the Toccatas manualiter my favorite (and Que´s) is Leon Berben. Another safe choice is van Asperen (his second recording for Teldec).

I'd love to get your opinion about recordings that you prefer. I'm going to check out Berben. I hesitate on Van Asperen because the downloadable recording is together with Goldbergs and I don't know if I can justify another Goldberg. Incidentally, I just got Staier's Goldbergs. I'm really enjoying them. The instrument is interesting. Perhaps there are weak points and inconsistencies. But I love Staier. I really like his version of variation 20. I wonder if you'll object to his liberal use of various registers? 

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 23, 2011, 04:16:21 PM
Quote from: premont on April 22, 2011, 10:55:27 AM
Knowing > 80% of these recordings I agree about their exellency, even if they do not always represent the ones I prefer. F.i. I find Brookshires AoF too mannered, not the least compared to Rieger, whom you mention too. Concerning the Toccatas manualiter my favorite (and Que´s) is Leon Berben. Another safe choice is van Asperen (his second recording for Teldec).

To continue this, any ideas about the Partitas? I love the two I mentioned. I'm crazy about Bach's partitas for harpsichord. I have Pinnock but I don't think he stands up to Leonhardt and Suzuuki here. What about the French suites? I also have the highly acclaimed Cates recording. Somehow it doesn't grab me like Moroney's recording does.  I'd also like to hear about people's favorite Couperin (F) recordings but perhaps it's for another forum.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 23, 2011, 06:20:36 PM
Quote from: milk on April 23, 2011, 04:16:21 PM
To continue this, any ideas about the Partitas? I love the two I mentioned. I'm crazy about Bach's partitas for harpsichord. I have Pinnock but I don't think he stands up to Leonhardt and Suzuuki here. What about the French suites? I also have the highly acclaimed Cates recording. Somehow it doesn't grab me like Moroney's recording does.  I'd also like to hear about people's favorite Couperin (F) recordings but perhaps it's for another forum.

You'll find plenty of recommendations in this thread, but just to drop some names: :)
For the Partitas Chritophe Rousset (Decca) (I notice that he doesn't show on your list at all, maybe you don' like his Bach?)
For the French Suites - and for the English Suites, for that matter: Alan Curtis (Teldec/Warner) and again Rousset, but now his newer recordings on Ambroisie.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on April 23, 2011, 09:00:43 PM
Quote from: milk on April 23, 2011, 04:16:21 PM
To continue this, any ideas about the Partitas? I love the two I mentioned. I'm crazy about Bach's partitas for harpsichord. I have Pinnock but I don't think he stands up to Leonhardt and Suzuuki here. What about the French suites? I also have the highly acclaimed Cates recording. Somehow it doesn't grab me like Moroney's recording does.  I'd also like to hear about people's favorite Couperin (F) recordings but perhaps it's for another forum.

The French Suites : I like a light touch and a strong dancey rhythm

HIP or not I think that Landowska's pre war Suite 6 is worth hearing for sure. (The CD below also has some wonderful toccatas). Swinging rhythms and a light touch. The tone of her Playel harpsichord is not so forceful here as in post war recordings. The English Suite there is post war and IMO much less interesting.

Ditto for Kirkpatrick. The instrument is so colourful and the rhythms are so swinging. I like the elastic bad twanginess of his harsichord, which gives to my ears a lovely earthy quality to some of the dances

Walcha is good IMO (I put it on symponyshare). though maybe not as supremely excellent here as in the English Suites. The instrument is a bit clangy, but it's not problematic. I like the fast tempos, the high energy.

The more I play it the more I appreciate Koopman's CD, but I find him bland compare with Landowska and Kirkpatrick and Walcha.

I can't get into David Cates's slow tempos, which just seem to wallow sentimentally  to me.


The Partitas are easier as there are piles of really characterful and enjoyable CDs

I have Leonhardt on Virgin Veritas and I love it, becuae it's so focussed. I'm sorry if I can't explain that better, but he just seems to lead you inevitably through the argument of the music. I love Kirkpatrick too -- maybe even more than in the French Suites. Kirkpatrick's box of 1950s recordings is generally one of the most fun Bach Harpsichord sets I own. It's coming to the desert island.
[asin]B0002ANQW2[/asin]
[asin]B000066HE9[/asin]










Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 23, 2011, 09:15:48 PM
Quote from: Que on April 23, 2011, 06:20:36 PM
You'll find plenty of recommendations in this thread, but just to drop some names: :)
For the Partitas Chritophe Rousset (Decca) (I notice that he doesn't show on your list at all, maybe you don' like his Bach?)
For the French Suites - and for the English Suites, for that matter: Alan Curtis (Teldec/Warner) and again Rousset, but now his newer recordings on Ambroisie.

Q

He's there. I love his French Overture but for some reason I don't have his partitas. I'll have to get them! The 6 Partitas are my favorite Bach at the moment. I'll have to check out Curtis! Thanks! I also have Rousset's Goldbergs which I like. For some reason I can't seem to take to Richard Troeger's Partitas or Inventions. I just love Suzuuki's Partitas!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 23, 2011, 09:30:19 PM
Quote from: milk on April 23, 2011, 04:16:21 PM
What about the French suites? I also have the highly acclaimed Cates recording. Somehow it doesn't grab me like Moroney's recording does. 

I love both the Cates and Moroney sets; also I second the Curtis.  Another favorite of mine comes from Francesco Cera on the ARTS label; his ornamentation and changes of registration in the repeats is stunning.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 24, 2011, 12:04:36 AM
Quote from: milk on April 23, 2011, 09:15:48 PM
He's there. I love his French Overture but for some reason I don't have his partitas. I'll have to get them! The 6 Partitas are my favorite Bach at the moment.

Of his Decca recordings I think next the Goldbergs the Partitas are actually the pick of the bunch:

[asin]B000BV5RCE[/asin]

Since then his style developed further. If you can take the swiftness, the elaborate brilliance and the very rich sound stage I defintely recommend this box set of his recordings on Ambroisie:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iuGBFEy1L.jpg)

QuoteI can't seem to take to Richard Troeger's Partitas or Inventions.

Don't worry, neither can I! :o ;D Put me off Troeger all together.

Quote from: Bulldog on April 23, 2011, 09:30:19 PM
Another favorite of mine comes from Francesco Cera on the ARTS label; his ornamentation and changes of registration in the repeats is stunning.

A new star I need to check out - I like the Italian touch in Bach, Dantone's Goldberg Variations or WTC for instance.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 24, 2011, 02:11:09 AM
Quote from: Que on April 24, 2011, 12:04:36 AM
Of his Decca recordings I think next the Goldbergs the Partitas are actually the pick of the bunch:

Can you believe I had Rousset's Partitas on my hard-drive and didn't realize it? I guess I bought this set with the Goldbergs and Overture and put it away for some reason. Well, I have some listening to do! 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: marvinbrown on April 24, 2011, 03:01:13 AM


   Bach fans I am still missing the French suites on harpsichord and am torn between these 2 sets:

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51buzSNxF9L._SS500_.jpg)

  OR

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510DPJfMIlL._SS500_.jpg)


  I have Moroney's Art of Fugue and find his approach a bit "clinical" at times.  I am not sure I would welcome this approach with the French suites.  Hogwood is unfamiliar to me.  I was hoping to find a recording with Leonhardt on harpsichord but there does not seem to be one??  as some of you might know I have his Partitas (German Suites) and his English Suites which I love.  No Leonhardt  >:(! What do I do?

  marvin
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 24, 2011, 03:10:24 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on April 24, 2011, 03:01:13 AM

   Bach fans I am still missing the French suites on harpsichord and am torn between these 2 sets:


  I have Moroney's Art of Fugue and find his approach a bit "clinical" at times.  I am not sure I would welcome this approach with the French suites.  Hogwood is unfamiliar to me.  I was hoping to find a recording with Leonhardt on harpsichord but there does not seem to be one??  as some of you might know I have his Partitas (German Suites) and his English Suites which I love.  No Leonhardt  >:(! What do I do?

  marvin

There is little to choose between. Both are stylish and  recommendable PI recordings, and Moroney is not as clinical as one might suppose.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 24, 2011, 03:12:50 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on April 24, 2011, 03:01:13 AM

   Bach fans I am still missing the French suites on harpsichord and am torn between these 2 sets:

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51buzSNxF9L._SS500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510DPJfMIlL._SS500_.jpg)


  I have Moroney's Art of Fugue and find his approach a bit "clinical" at times.  I am not sure I would welcome this approach with the French suites.  Hogwood is unfamiliar to me.  I was hoping to find a recording with Leonhardt on harpsichord but there does not seem to be one??  as some of you might know I have his Partitas (German Suites) and his English Suites which I love.  No Leonhardt  >:(! What do I do?

Leonhardt did indeed record them for RCA, they were issued on the Sony Seon series - probably OOP right now.

As for the given choice: I agree with your assessment of Moroney - though he is superb in French repertoire - wouldn't opt for Hogwood either. See a few posts back for my rec. of Curtis & Rousset. If you like Leonhardt, Alan Curtis would be the more logical choice..

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 24, 2011, 05:11:37 AM
Quote from: Que on April 24, 2011, 03:12:50 AM
Leonhardt did indeed record them for RCA, they were issued on the Sony Seon series - probably OOP right now.

As for the given choice: I agree with your assessment of Moroney - though he is superb in French repertoire - wouldn't opt for Hogwood either. See a few posts back for my rec. of Curtis & Rousset. If you like Leonhardt, Alan Curtis would be the more logical choice..

Q

The choice was between Hogwood and Moroney. Both a safe choice. But of course Curtis (Teldec) would be preferable. My own favorite BTW is Koopman (Erato), who offers a nice relaxed interpretation with surprising modest and well working varied reprises. And Lars Ulrik Mortensen (Kontrapunkt) who offers a colourful and  well articulated reading. Leonhardt (RCA) has but recorded these works once, and whether available or not I think that he was rather unfortunate this time as the interpretations lack his usuals tense and individual playing. I am not captivated by Rousset´s "Limousine" approach. And I find Cates a bit bland. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 24, 2011, 05:20:59 AM
Quote from: Que on April 24, 2011, 12:04:36 AM
[On Rousset] Since then his style developed further. If you can take the swiftness, the elaborate brilliance and the very rich sound stage [...]

Quote from: premont on April 24, 2011, 05:11:37 AM
I am not captivated by Rousset´s "Limousine" approach.

What a great way of putting it! :D

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 24, 2011, 06:28:09 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on April 24, 2011, 03:01:13 AM

   Bach fans I am still missing the French suites on harpsichord and am torn between these 2 sets:


 


  I have Moroney's Art of Fugue and find his approach a bit "clinical" at times.  I am not sure I would welcome this approach with the French suites.  Hogwood is unfamiliar to me.  I was hoping to find a recording with Leonhardt on harpsichord but there does not seem to be one??  as some of you might know I have his Partitas (German Suites) and his English Suites which I love.  No Leonhardt  >:(! What do I do?

  marvin


Might as well add my two cents. I don't know the Hogwood but I love the Moroney recording, especially the last three suites. I don't find Moroney's Frech suites to be clinical. I've never gotten into the Cates by the way. I've tried. Others may disagree, but I find Bradley Brookshire's truncated version of the French Suites to be otherworldly and exciting. Incidentally, I uploaded and listened to a bit of Rousset's Partitas tonight - as I was recommended to do. I've really enjoyed what I've heard so far. Furthermore, at the moment I'm checking out Francesco Cera's French Suites, also per recommendations from helpful contributors to this forum. After the first two suites I can say that this recording is also shaping up to be quite wonderful.   

 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on April 24, 2011, 07:22:42 AM
Quote from: premont on April 24, 2011, 05:11:37 AM
The choice was between Hogwood and Moroney. Both a safe choice. But of course Curtis (Teldec) would be preferable. My own favorite BTW is Koopman (Erato), who offers a nice relaxed interpretation with surprising modest and well working varied reprises. And Lars Ulrik Mortensen (Kontrapunkt) who offers a colourful and  well articulated reading. Leonhardt (RCA) has but recorded these works once, and whether available or not I think that he was rather unfortunate this time as the interpretations lack his usuals tense and individual playing. I am not captivated by Rousset´s "Limousine" approach. And I find Cates a bit bland.

How about Pierre Hantai?  I just ordered his Goldberg Variations, which unfortunately is out of stock for now ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 24, 2011, 07:57:34 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 24, 2011, 07:22:42 AM
How about Pierre Hantai?  I just ordered his Goldberg Variations, which unfortunately is out of stock for now ...

As far as I know he has not recorded the French Suites.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on April 24, 2011, 12:21:17 PM
This one joins me (ir)regularly whilst travelling to and from work:

(http://i51.tinypic.com/v4qnh3.jpg)

On a disc-man with moderate headphones, it's OK listening. Elina Mustonen's no-nonsense approach is quite to my likings, but on a better hifi equipment the both flat and 'spikey' sound of the harpsichord makes listening a rather tiring experience. Could be caused by the sound engineering of course ....
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 24, 2011, 01:22:21 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 24, 2011, 12:21:17 PM

On a disc-man with moderate headphones, it's OK listening. Elina Mustonen's no-nonsense approach is quite to my likings, but on a better hifi equipment the both flat and 'spikey' sound of the harpsichord makes listening a rather tiring experience. Could be caused by the sound engineering of course ....

A couple of years ago I acquired Mustonen´s English suites. Well, good and middle of the road interpretations, but not exceptional. So I have not investigated her French suites. Maybe I should? However I recently ordred Baumont´s French suites, and the next will be Cera´s.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on April 24, 2011, 01:39:10 PM
I don't have that many recordings of the French Suites, but as far as I knew mrs. Mustonen had not been mentioned yet. So, I decided to say something (nice) about her, also to let everybody know that I'm still alive despite 3 weeks of silencio. ;D

So yes, I think Mustonen is OK, but definitely not exceptional.
And I'm sure there are better recordings available.

But this mr. Bach is turning me into a poor man .... all those different recordings I ought to buy!

Hab' Mitleid!
(Verschone mich!)


Post Scriptum: Premont, how do you rate the sound quality of Mustonen's English Suites?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: marvinbrown on April 25, 2011, 12:10:28 AM


  Thank you all for your recommendations and responses  :).  I am investigating the others sets especially the Curtis set and will make up my mind soon. 
 

  marvin
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 25, 2011, 12:07:33 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 24, 2011, 01:39:10 PM
... also to let everybody know that I'm still alive despite 3 weeks of silencio. ;D

Much appreciated.  :)

Quote from: Marc
But this mr. Bach is turning me into a poor man .... all those different recordings I ought to buy!

Me too.

Quote from: Marc
Post Scriptum: Premont, how do you rate the sound quality of Mustonen's English Suites?

Your word "spiky" covers my impression well. It is metallic in a bad sense. It is interesting to note, that neither the cover nor the booklet are mentioning the origin of the instrument at all.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 25, 2011, 12:11:13 PM
Quote from: milk on April 23, 2011, 03:59:32 PM
I'd love to get your opinion about recordings that you prefer. But I love Staier. I really like his version of variation 20. I wonder if you'll object to his liberal use of various registers?

I have often considered him a bit showman-like, but in his Goldbergs I think he uses an interesting instrument in an interesting way.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 25, 2011, 12:26:16 PM
Quote from: milk on April 23, 2011, 04:16:21 PM
To continue this, any ideas about the Partitas? I love the two I mentioned. I'm crazy about Bach's partitas for harpsichord. I have Pinnock but I don't think he stands up to Leonhardt and Suzuuki here.

Concerning the Partitas:
Yes, Pinnock is a bit too workman-like to my taste.

My preferences at the moment are:

Suzuki (BIS)  who is outstanding, offering an interpretation which is passionate to a degree which is most unusual for him.
Leonhardt (DHM or EMI - I prefer the DHM by a close margin).
Lars Ulrik Mortensen (Kontrapunkt), who even here offers a colourful and expressive interpretation.
Pieter-Jan Belder (Brilliant Classics) Beautiful no-nonsense subtle expresive interpretation.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: zauberharfe on April 25, 2011, 12:29:29 PM
(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2343/coverryc.jpg)

It seems this set has gone unobserved by the members here - a bit undeservedly, I think! It was recorded on the 'celebrated Blanchet-Taskin harpsichord in the collection of Kenneth Gilbert' in 2007. For me it is a performance showing a very good taste - no excesses, but the playing is amazing nevertheless.

disc info: Metronome MET CD 1078

EDIT: I don't know whether sampling is allowed here: if yes, I would willingly upload the Gavotte from Suite n.6.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on April 25, 2011, 01:30:22 PM
Blandine Verlet recorded the partitas twice, once for Naïve and once for Philips. I only have the earlier Philips recording, and I love it because she is spontaneous and imaginative and bold and joyful and passionate and energetic. She doesn't have the patrician stateliness of Leonhardt -- but that's not necessarily a hardship. Neither is her reading particularly contemplative.

Anyway, my question is, has anyone listened to both the earlier and the later sets, who can say something about the differences?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: zauberharfe on April 25, 2011, 01:36:55 PM
Bad luck - only the Naive set on this side  ::)

But I would be interested in the (eventual) differences, too!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 25, 2011, 07:38:25 PM
Quote from: premont on April 25, 2011, 12:26:16 PM
Concerning the Partitas:
Yes, Pinnock is a bit too workman-like to my taste.

My preferences at the moment are:

Suzuki (BIS)  who is outstanding, offering an interpretation which is passionate to a degree which is most unusual for him.
Leonhardt (DHM or EMI - I prefer the DHM by a close margin).
Lars Ulrik Mortensen (Kontrapunkt), who even here offers a colourful and expressive interpretation.
Pieter-Jan Belder (Brilliant Classics) Beautiful no-nonsense subtle expresive interpretation.

Premont, thank you very much for that list! :) I do need to update on the Partitas.

A recording that has some fame but you didn't mention, is Ketil Haugsand on Simax. Have you heard that? :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on April 25, 2011, 08:36:27 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 24, 2011, 12:21:17 PMElina Mustonen's no-nonsense approach [of the French Suites] is quite to my likings, but on a better hifi equipment the both flat and 'spikey' sound of the harpsichord makes listening a rather tiring experience. Could be caused by the sound engineering of course ....
[....]
Premont, how do you rate the sound quality of Mustonen's English Suites?

Quote from: premont on April 25, 2011, 12:07:33 PM
Your word "spiky" covers my impression well. It is metallic in a bad sense. It is interesting to note, that neither the cover nor the booklet are mentioning the origin of the instrument at all.

Booklet on Mustonen's French Suites:
Harpsichord: Willem Kroesbergen (Utrecht 1993, after Couchet). Tuning: unequal temperament.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 26, 2011, 03:33:02 AM
Quote from: premont on April 25, 2011, 12:26:16 PM
Concerning the Partitas:
Yes, Pinnock is a bit too workman-like to my taste.

My preferences at the moment are:

Suzuki (BIS)  who is outstanding, offering an interpretation which is passionate to a degree which is most unusual for him.
Leonhardt (DHM or EMI - I prefer the DHM by a close margin).
Lars Ulrik Mortensen (Kontrapunkt), who even here offers a colourful and expressive interpretation.
Pieter-Jan Belder (Brilliant Classics) Beautiful no-nonsense subtle expresive interpretation.

I also love the Suzuki and Leonhardt recordings. There's something really special in the Suzuki. But I did enjoy the Rousset today. Are the Mortensen and Belder recordings must-have? I'm hoping I don't have to buy them! My wallets getting thin!   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 26, 2011, 08:45:50 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 25, 2011, 01:30:22 PM
Blandine Verlet recorded the partitas twice, once for Naïve and once for Philips. I only have the earlier Philips recording, and I love it because she is spontaneous and imaginative and bold and joyful and passionate and energetic. She doesn't have the patrician stateliness of Leonhardt -- but that's not necessarily a hardship. Neither is her reading particularly contemplative.

Anyway, my question is, has anyone listened to both the earlier and the later sets, who can say something about the differences?

I used to own her first recording on LP. Parted with it many years ago, when I changed to CD. Haven´t left but a faint memory, and agree with the words bold and energetic. Surely a competent interpretation, but I did not like it - maybe I fouund it to be too imaginative.

However her second recording is even more spontaneous and imaginative, bordering the wilful. And tell you what, I really like it. So I have considered to reaquire her first recording (on CD).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 26, 2011, 08:52:48 AM
Quote from: milk on April 26, 2011, 03:33:02 AM
I also love the Suzuki and Leonhardt recordings. There's something really special in the Suzuki. But I did enjoy the Rousset today. Are the Mortensen and Belder recordings must-have? I'm hoping I don't have to buy them! My wallets getting thin!   

It depends upon how many recordings you want to own, as I find the Leonhardt and Suzuki more "essential" than the Belder and Mortensen.
If I get the time I may write a list of all the recordings I own and rank them with a few words.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 26, 2011, 08:57:18 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 25, 2011, 08:36:27 PM
Booklet on Mustonen's French Suites:
Harpsichord: Willem Kroesbergen (Utrecht 1993, after Couchet). Tuning: unequal temperament.

Thanks for this information. I might have guessed Kroesbergen, because Mustonen is a pupil of Koopman, who prefers Kroesbergen. On the other hand I do not think that Mustonen´s Kroesbergen sounds like the one´s Koopman and Suzuki use to use for recordings, so the culprit in the case of Mustonen may be the engineer.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 26, 2011, 09:02:49 AM
Quote from: Que on April 25, 2011, 07:38:25 PM

A recording that has some fame but you didn't mention, is Ketil Haugsand on Simax. Have you heard that? :)


Oh, yes. A sympatic and rather individual interpretation. But still I consider the ones I mentioned to be superior, and I could not mention all recordings I know in this context.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 26, 2011, 10:11:01 AM
Quote from: premont on April 26, 2011, 09:02:49 AM
Oh, yes. A sympatic and rather individual interpretation. But still I consider the ones I mentioned to be superior, and I could not mention all recordings I know in this context.

It's curious that you use the word "individual" because one of my principal problems with Ketil Haugsand has been that I don't get to recognize his individual voice in these pieces. I mean all the particular aspects are well delivered (and he perfectly manages all the Baroque rhetorical resources), but I miss his own general vision and some sense of fun and enjoyment. With some of my favorite performers one or two words, a definition, come easily to my mind, for instance: Verlet II, passion, emotional turbulence; Dubreuil, Cartesian clarity; Leonhardt II, canonical (even without repetitions) and so, but the definition of Haugsand eludes me.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 26, 2011, 02:52:49 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 26, 2011, 10:11:01 AM
It's curious that you use the word "individual" because one of my principal problems with Ketil Haugsand has been that I don't get to recognize his individual voice in these pieces. I mean all the particular aspects are well delivered (and he perfectly manages all the Baroque rhetorical resources), but I miss his own general vision and some sense of fun and enjoyment. With some of my favorite performers one or two words, a definition, come easily to my mind, for instance: Verlet II, passion, emotional turbulence; Dubreuil, Cartesian clarity; Leonhardt II, canonical (even without repetitions) and so, but the definition of Haugsand eludes me.

Writing "individual" I mean, that Haugsand´s interpretation is unlike what I have heard from others. I do not think it is necessary to put a label upon him. BTW if I should it would be something like human nobility, i.e. he displays the greatness of these works in a very human expressive way,  I think this is caused by his imagination rather than just by his mastery of rhetorical ressources.

On the other hand Dubreuil = clarity, yes ideal clarity, but in a neutral and almost impersonal way IMO, not far from what I have heard from some others e.g. James Weaver, who´s recording also displays ideal clarity. I do not intend to detract from Dubreuil and Weaver, just to state, that I think they to a certain extent lack individuality.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 26, 2011, 04:14:04 PM
Quote from: premont on April 26, 2011, 02:52:49 PM
Writing "individual" I mean, that Haugsand´s interpretation is unlike what I have heard from others. I do not think it is necessary to put a label upon him. BTW if I should it would be something like human nobility, i.e. he displays the greatness of these works in a very human expressive way,  I think this is caused by his imagination rather than just by his mastery of rhetorical ressources.

I will listen to him with your words in mind the next time.

Quote from: premont on April 26, 2011, 02:52:49 PM
On the other hand Dubreuil = clarity, yes ideal clarity, but in a neutral and almost impersonal way IMO, not far from what I have heard from some others e.g. James Weaver, who´s recording also displays ideal clarity. I do not intend to detract from Dubreuil and Weaver, just to state, that I think they to a certain extent lack individuality.

My approach is different here. I see Dubreuil's version like a very sunny and singing (cantabile) version, where these highly virtuosistic suites naturally recover their dance origins and the music speaks by itself. It's like a very hard work delivered with elegance, without apparent effort.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 27, 2011, 03:57:04 AM
Quote from: premont on April 26, 2011, 08:52:48 AM

It depends upon how many recordings you want to own, as I find the Leonhardt and Suzuki more "essential" than the Belder and Mortensen.
If I get the time I may write a list of all the recordings I own and rank them with a few words.

My feeling is that Leonhardt and Suzuki are enough for me. I enjoyed the Rousset but will probably not listen to it much. The Leonhardt and Suzuki recordings are such pieces of heaven. 

Your list would be greatly appreciated! 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 27, 2011, 04:32:52 AM
Quote from: premont on April 26, 2011, 08:52:48 AM

It depends upon how many recordings you want to own, as I find the Leonhardt and Suzuki more "essential" than the Belder and Mortensen.
If I get the time I may write a list of all the recordings I own and rank them with a few words.

I'm always interested in people's essentials. By the way, after listening to the Cera, and enjoying it, I still go back to the Moroney. I find myself attached to it. Take Moroney's Gigue in number 5. It's so down and dirty! I just love it.

What about Well Tempered Clavier? I love Kenneth Gilbert. Recently I acquired Glen Wilson, which I quite enjoy. I also got my hands on Leonhardt's book one. It's stupendous. Will anyone hold it against me if I say that Robert Levin's quirky WTC is among my favorites? I even enjoy his nasty sounding fortepiano.
I have a feeling that people will tell me I'm missing something essential. I'm ready to hear what it is. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 27, 2011, 10:04:40 AM
Quote from: milk on April 27, 2011, 04:32:52 AM
I'm always interested in people's essentials. By the way, after listening to the Cera, and enjoying it, I still go back to the Moroney. I find myself attached to it. Take Moroney's Gigue in number 5. It's so down and dirty! I just love it.

What about Well Tempered Clavier? I love Kenneth Gilbert. Recently I acquired Glen Wilson, which I quite enjoy. I also got my hands on Leonhardt's book one. It's stupendous. Will anyone hold it against me if I say that Robert Levin's quirky WTC is among my favorites? I even enjoy his nasty sounding fortepiano.
I have a feeling that people will tell me I'm missing something essential. I'm ready to hear what it is.

I have no idea why you might think you're missing something essential.  The WTC's you mentioned have much to offer, so enjoy!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on April 27, 2011, 12:18:13 PM
Quote from: milk on April 27, 2011, 04:32:52 AM
.
I have a feeling that people will tell me I'm missing something essential. I'm ready to hear what it is.

The intimacy and coloufulnesss  of Kirkpatrick's Clavichord.
I think Landowska does some pretty unique and enjoyable things with WTC too.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 27, 2011, 12:42:24 PM
Quote from: milk on April 27, 2011, 04:32:52 AM

What about Well Tempered Clavier? I love Kenneth Gilbert. Recently I acquired Glen Wilson, which I quite enjoy. I also got my hands on Leonhardt's book one. It's stupendous. Will anyone hold it against me if I say that Robert Levin's quirky WTC is among my favorites? I even enjoy his nasty sounding fortepiano.
I have a feeling that people will tell me I'm missing something essential. I'm ready to hear what it is.

Well. exactly Leonhardt, Wilson and Gilbert are my essentials concerning the WTC, so nor do I see, what you are missing.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 27, 2011, 12:50:40 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 26, 2011, 04:14:04 PM
My approach is different here. I see Dubreuil's version like a very sunny and singing (cantabile) version, where these highly virtuosistic suites naturally recover their dance origins and the music speaks by itself. It's like a very hard work delivered with elegance, without apparent effort.

I agree very much with this. My point is, that Dubreuil isn´t the only one with that kind of approach.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on April 27, 2011, 09:20:16 PM
Spurred by this thread I'm doing a Partitas survey  :D for a possible 2nd harpsichord recording (next to Rousset, which is admittedly in a very personal style). Suzuki sounds very good indeed, Leonhardt is off the list  - I have never been big on him and he skips repeats.

Anyone familiar with this? :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0885470000398.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 27, 2011, 09:47:48 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 27, 2011, 10:04:40 AM
I have no idea why you might think you're missing something essential.  The WTC's you mentioned have much to offer, so enjoy!

A sigh of relief! I love these versions so (Gilbert's Goldberg is also great) and another version might be a distraction! I just can't resist when there's a consensus on the merits of an interpretation I don't have. I've often put my finger near the download button for Kirkpatrick but always stopped short.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on April 27, 2011, 10:02:10 PM
The reason to listen to Kpk is that it's very different from Gilbert and Wilson. Same with Ldk, though that is so poorly recorded that I can imagine lots of people would find their pleasure limited. Kpk and Ldk are poets in their own way, at least as creative as Wilson and Gilbert.

I don't believe in these lists of essentials. I think you should try to listen to everything - or at least everything that's creative and original.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 28, 2011, 06:51:00 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 27, 2011, 10:02:10 PM
The reason to listen to Kpk is that it's very different from Gilbert and Wilson. Same with Ldk, though that is so poorly recorded that I can imagine lots of people would find their pleasure limited. Kpk and Ldk are poets in their own way, at least as creative as Wilson and Gilbert.

I don't believe in these lists of essentials. I think you should try to listen to everything - or at least everything that's creative and original.

"Essentials" is just a way of saying the same thing. It's hard to listen to everything - and it's expensive. Also, I'm always afraid I'm going to wear it out. If someone has something important to say in a performance then I'm game. But I'm musically uneducated. I can't really say what that is. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 28, 2011, 10:26:52 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on April 27, 2011, 09:20:16 PM

Anyone familiar with this? :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0885470000398.jpg)

It is in my "to be listened to" pile.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 28, 2011, 10:28:24 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 27, 2011, 10:02:10 PM
The reason to listen to Kpk is that it's very different from Gilbert and Wilson. Same with Ldk, though that is so poorly recorded that I can imagine lots of people would find their pleasure limited. Kpk and Ldk are poets in their own way, at least as creative as Wilson and Gilbert.

I don't believe in these lists of essentials. I think you should try to listen to everything - or at least everything that's creative and original.

Do you consider variety an aim per se?

Swingle singers and Wendy Carlos were also quite original.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 28, 2011, 10:50:43 AM
Quote from: milk on April 27, 2011, 09:47:48 PM
I've often put my finger near the download button for Kirkpatrick but always stopped short.

Kirkpatrick´s Bach harpsichord recordings for Archive from the late 1950es and the early 1960es are certainly most interesting. It is amazing how many strange but still efficient sounds he could "worm" out from his far from period Neupert model Bach harpsichord, and his rhytmic sense is mesmerizing. He was an extrovert and energetic kind of artist and one looks (almost) in vain for introspection, but it is certainly fun and stimulating. I am less convicted by his clavichord recordings. IMO his playing is too extrovert to the intimate character of that instrument.   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on April 28, 2011, 11:52:20 AM
Quote from: premont on April 28, 2011, 10:50:43 AM
Kirkpatrick´s Bach harpsichord recordings for Archive from the late 1950es and the early 1960es are certainly most interesting. It is amazing how many strange but still efficient sounds he could "worm" out from his far from period Neupert model Bach harpsichord, and his rhytmic sense is mesmerizing. He was an extrovert and energetic kind of artist and one looks (almost) in vain for introspection, but it is certainly fun and stimulating. I am less convicted by his clavichord recordings. IMO his playing is too extrovert to the intimate character of that instrument.

The trick to coming to terms with Kptk's clavichord recording is to turn the amplifier volume down very low. Anyway, I suspect you  have a predilection for contemplative introspective  interpretations. But maybe I'm wrong  (you did say you like Verlet -- I've bought the Astree! Velet's  the exception that proves the rule maybe.) ;)

I think that it's good to have an open mind to authentic sincere musicians. They all deserve a good hearing.  And personally I'm amazed at the pleasure I get from trying to take in what they do. I think, in fact, that recorded music is a very high art form, to be treated critically and seriously.

I'm not so sure how authentic and sincere Swingle singers were -- as opposed to just making a fast buck out of some crisp vocalise.

As I'm writing this I realise I'm coming dangerously close to some form of intentionalism, which I really want to avoid . . .

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 28, 2011, 04:01:12 PM
Quote from: premont on April 28, 2011, 10:50:43 AM
Kirkpatrick´s Bach harpsichord recordings for Archive from the late 1950es and the early 1960es are certainly most interesting. It is amazing how many strange but still efficient sounds he could "worm" out from his far from period Neupert model Bach harpsichord, and his rhytmic sense is mesmerizing. He was an extrovert and energetic kind of artist and one looks (almost) in vain for introspection, but it is certainly fun and stimulating. I am less convicted by his clavichord recordings. IMO his playing is too extrovert to the intimate character of that instrument.

What do you think of Levin's strange recording? He uses clavichord, harpsichord, organ, and fortepiano. Perhaps it could be thought to be eccentric? I find it compelling. It rounds things out for me. I'm not sure I can adjust my ears to the Neupert. I've also listened to samples of Kirkpatrick's clavichord and they didn't entice me whereas Levin's versions on clavichord leave me satisfied (I bought Tilney's version on clavichord a few years back and only listened to it once or twice). Sometimes I'm afraid my ears are going to get crowded! Do you ever worry you'll wear things out? I listened to the Goldbergs so many times that, honestly, now I can only listen to it once or twice a year. When I look at Donald Satz reviews I marvel at how he can go through so many versions without spoiling the music. On the other hand, of course a really great performance can bring me back to a piece so I hear it in a new way. The new Staier Goldberg did that for me. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 28, 2011, 04:22:35 PM
Quote from: milk on April 28, 2011, 04:01:12 PM
What do you think of Levin's strange recording? He uses clavichord, harpsichord, organ, and fortepiano. Perhaps it could be thought to be eccentric? I find it compelling. It rounds things out for me. I'm not sure I can adjust my ears to the Neupert. I've also listened to samples of Kirkpatrick's clavichord and they didn't entice me whereas Levin's versions on clavichord leave me satisfied (I bought Tilney's version on clavichord a few years back and only listened to it once or twice). Sometimes I'm afraid my ears are going to get crowded! Do you ever worry you'll wear things out? I listened to the Goldbergs so many times that, honestly, now I can only listen to it once or twice a year. When I look at Donald Satz reviews I marvel at how he can go through so many versions without spoiling the music. On the other hand, of course a really great performance can bring me back to a piece so I hear it in a new way. The new Staier Goldberg did that for me.

There's nothing strange about Levin's set; I just think of it as a diverse use of instruments.

Concerning my Goldbergs reviews, and a few others, the key to going through dozens of versions is to possess a great love of the music.  At one time, I was going to do similar reviews of the Brandenburgs.  I lined up the versions I owned and acquired many more in preparation.  Unfortunately, I found that my love of those works wasn't strong enough for me to spend so much time on this one project.  I learned from that mistake.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on April 28, 2011, 05:58:58 PM
Quote from: premont on April 28, 2011, 10:50:43 AM
Kirkpatrick´s Bach harpsichord recordings for Archive from the late 1950es and the early 1960es are certainly most interesting. It is amazing how many strange but still efficient sounds he could "worm" out from his far from period Neupert model Bach harpsichord, and his rhytmic sense is mesmerizing. He was an extrovert and energetic kind of artist and one looks (almost) in vain for introspection, but it is certainly fun and stimulating. I am less convicted by his clavichord recordings. IMO his playing is too extrovert to the intimate character of that instrument.

IIRC, Kirkpatrick was professor of harpsichord at Yale and was a musicologist in addition to being an outstanding harpsichordist.  I bought the following set over a year ago.  I also have his WTC I & II ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hDGXMawTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 28, 2011, 09:43:50 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 28, 2011, 04:22:35 PM
There's nothing strange about Levin's set; I just think of it as a diverse use of instruments.

Concerning my Goldbergs reviews, and a few others, the key to going through dozens of versions is to possess a great love of the music.  At one time, I was going to do similar reviews of the Brandenburgs.  I lined up the versions I owned and acquired many more in preparation.  Unfortunately, I found that my love of those works wasn't strong enough for me to spend so much time on this one project.  I learned from that mistake.

Well the reviews are a great service to listeners. I go back to them again and again for insights. Many thanks!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 28, 2011, 09:46:41 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 28, 2011, 04:22:35 PM
There's nothing strange about Levin's set; I just think of it as a diverse use of instruments.

Concerning my Goldbergs reviews, and a few others, the key to going through dozens of versions is to possess a great love of the music.  At one time, I was going to do similar reviews of the Brandenburgs.  I lined up the versions I owned and acquired many more in preparation.  Unfortunately, I found that my love of those works wasn't strong enough for me to spend so much time on this one project.  I learned from that mistake.

I think it was your reviews that first led me to the Levin set. I wonder what you think of the new Staier...Variation 20, for example, is marvelous (for me).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 28, 2011, 09:51:27 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 28, 2011, 04:22:35 PM
There's nothing strange about Levin's set; I just think of it as a diverse use of instruments.

Concerning my Goldbergs reviews, and a few others, the key to going through dozens of versions is to possess a great love of the music.  At one time, I was going to do similar reviews of the Brandenburgs.  I lined up the versions I owned and acquired many more in preparation.  Unfortunately, I found that my love of those works wasn't strong enough for me to spend so much time on this one project.  I learned from that mistake.

I think it was you who once said that you couldn't enjoy classical music that doesn't have a keyboard. I can't listen to much classical without a keyboard (except for occasional lute music and some choral music). I posted in the forum about the NY Times top 10 list. I wonder what a list of top ten keyboard composers would look like. I have my favorites. Of course Bach is Ichiban! It would be interesting for me to see this idea played out in the other forum.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on April 29, 2011, 12:12:43 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 28, 2011, 05:58:58 PM
IIRC, Kirkpatrick was professor of harpsichord at Yale and was a musicologist in addition to being an outstanding harpsichordist.  I bought the following set over a year ago.  I also have his WTC I & II ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hDGXMawTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

One of the things tht's very good about the style there is that he's often so irreverent and good humoured.

So often with the harpsichordists recommended here -- Leonhardt especially, but also  Wilson and Cates -- they are sometimes serious and scholarly with the music. Kirkpatrick is often an antidote to that -- a reminder that there are other ways. Same for Walcha at his best (like in the English suites); Landowska at her best (pre-war); Puyana . . .

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 29, 2011, 01:10:54 PM
Quote from: milk on April 28, 2011, 09:51:27 PM
I think it was you who once said that you couldn't enjoy classical music that doesn't have a keyboard.

I sure don't remember saying anything like the above.  Although solo keyboard is my favorite category, I also enjoy string and wind chamber music, concertos of all types, orchestral music/symphonies, sacred choral works and even a few operas.

Concerning Staier's Goldbergs, I haven't heard it yet(except for snippets on the JPC website).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on April 29, 2011, 01:15:53 PM
Quote from: milk on April 28, 2011, 09:51:27 PM
I wonder what a list of top ten keyboard composers would look like. I have my favorites. Of course Bach is Ichiban! It would be interesting for me to see this idea played out in the other forum.

My top ten would be:

Bach - Froberger - Buxtehude - Schumann - Beethoven - Schubert - Chopin - Scriabin - Shostakovich - Ravel.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on April 30, 2011, 02:55:18 AM
Listening to the French Suites played by Joseph Payne, the man of the famous/notorious Spaced-Out Bach LP's in the seventies (never heard them, though).

The suites were originally released by BIS and then sold to Brilliant Classics for their Bach Integral.

(http://i54.tinypic.com/jph15i.jpg)

It's solid playing IMHO, but really nothing more. Rather stiff even, and the instrument is also sounding a bit 'light-weight', with problems concerning the lute stop. Some of the lower notes don't sound like a lute but return to the 'normal' harpsichord sound, as if the machinery isn't working properly.
Whilst I was listening I thought: if Payne played the organ in this style, with proper registrations, it would sound quite good. I have neglected the harpsichord for the last few years because of my sudden fast and furious growing love for the organ, but could it be that playing Bach on a harpsichord requires a more involved and imaginative way of playing, just because the organ is more able to decorate the music with various beautiful registration possibilities? Just wondering.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on April 30, 2011, 03:28:03 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on April 27, 2011, 09:20:16 PM
Spurred by this thread I'm doing a Partitas survey  :D for a possible 2nd harpsichord recording (next to Rousset, which is admittedly in a very personal style). Suzuki sounds very good indeed, Leonhardt is off the list  - I have never been big on him and he skips repeats.

Anyone familiar with this? :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0885470000398.jpg)
Francesco Corti - Partitas - Berlin Classics (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0040MTWDU/nectarandambr-20)

I'm re-listening to them right now. Very good stuff but without that immediate kick that would make you (or me, at least) recommend it to everyone who utters the word "Partita". Not as personal as Rousset (though I wish he'd record his Partitas anew on the ApArTe label and that Neuchâtel Ruckers or the "Nightingale" Colmar Ruckers that Schornsheim used for her WTC I [not yet released]. (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2640)

Sturdy, solid... wonderful to listen to very loud. I must be annoying tons of neighbors right now. :-)



(some partitas on piano: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2890 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2890) --- though it doesn't mention (at the time I had not heard it) how truly, truly excellent Schiff's second (!!) recording (ECM) is.

Quote from: milk on April 27, 2011, 09:47:48 PM
A sigh of relief! I love these versions so (Gilbert's Goldberg is also great) and another version might be a distraction! I just can't resist when there's a consensus on the merits of an interpretation I don't have. I've often put my finger near the download button for Kirkpatrick but always stopped short.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hDGXMawTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Kirkpatrick - Complete Archiv Bach Recordings - Archiv (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002ANQW2/nectarandambr-20)

I recently "had" to recommend this set to a pianist (or rather the WTC from it) because it's really the only easily available WTC on the clavichord. Felt kind of guilty about it, because I think it's the most deadly boring Bach. His premonitions (see quote) turned out to be true for him, too. It's just one of those things one wants to be better than it really is, I feel.

Quote"Ha! Now I remember. When I was a Tanglewood student (playing WTC I for the first time...), I heard the Kirpatrick in the "listening lab." I recall nothing whatsoever about the performances. And I know I heard the whole thing."


WTC on Clavichord:


Jaroslav Tuma (Supraphon). Unfortunately his set(s) seem out of print in the US and are available only as downloads:
Book 1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002GUNY7S/goodmusicguide-20)

The complete, 4-disc of Books 1 & 2, set is available from Germany (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001KYJOKC/classicalweta-21), though:



Robert Levin plays his WTC on three different instruments: fortepiano, organ, and the clavichord (Haenssler):
Book 1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004WJNI/goodmusicguide-20)

Book 2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004WJNJ/goodmusicguide-20)


Daniel Chorzempa (Philips) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000060AS/classicalweta-21) has a similar multi-instrumented approach that includes the clavichord.
His cycle (both books) seems solidly out of print... last seen in Austria.

Michael Thomas (Psyche). Never made if off LP, I think.

Ditto Hermann Iseringhausen (MDG).

Colin Tilney (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002ZM3/goodmusicguide-20) (hyperion) uses the clavichord and harpsichord.
Out of print... a few copies left used in the US (and Germany (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002ZM3/classicalweta-21)):

And most famously, if perhaps not most convincingly, of all:

Ralph Kirkpatrick on Archiv:
Book I (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004R7WZ/goodmusicguide-20)

Book II (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000058BGT/goodmusicguide-20)

Collected performances. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002ANQW2/goodmusicguide-20)
(WTC not included? I can't remember... It's been a while since I've had that set which I could not bother to keep.)


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on April 30, 2011, 04:52:33 AM
Thankyou for your list.

I don't think that the box in the pic contains the WTC, does it? I may be mistaken.

Anyway, I can't agree with your rather dismissive judgement.   I think his WTC on clavichord is really exciting.


Listen, for example, to Kirkpatrick on clavichord in the E flat minor and E major of Book  1.  Joyful, committed, colourful music making. I love the instrument --  I love the way it's so un-slick. Intimate and gentle  in the gentle  prelude to the E flat minor; rustic in the  E major fugue. And the  quietness (amp turned down) makes these pieces fit my living room  perfectly.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on April 30, 2011, 07:00:44 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 30, 2011, 04:52:33 AM
Thankyou for your list.

I don't think that the box in the pic contains the WTC, does it? I may be mistaken.

Anyway, I can't agree with your rather dismissive judgement.   I think his WTC on clavichord is really exciting.


Listen, for example, to Kirkpatrick on clavichord in the E flat minor and E major of Book  1.  Joyful, committed, colourful music making. I love the instrument --  I love the way it's so un-slick. Intimate and gentle  in the gentle  prelude to the E flat minor; rustic in the  E major fugue. And the  quietness (amp turned down) makes these pieces fit my living room  perfectly.

You are correct.  The Kirkpatrick's box does not include the WTC's.  They are pretty easy to find and I bought both WTC I and II last year as well ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on April 30, 2011, 07:26:47 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 30, 2011, 02:55:18 AM
Listening to the French Suites played by Joseph Payne, the man of the famous/notorious Spaced-Out Bach LP's in the seventies (never heard them, though).

The suites were originally released by BIS and then sold to Brilliant Classics for their Bach Integral.

(http://i54.tinypic.com/jph15i.jpg)

It's solid playing IMHO, but really nothing more. Rather stiff even, and the instrument is also sounding a bit 'light-weight', with problems concerning the lute stop. Some of the lower notes don't sound like a lute but return to the 'normal' harpsichord sound, as if the machinery isn't working properly.
Whilst I was listening I thought: if Payne played the organ in this style, with proper registrations, it would sound quite good. I have neglected the harpsichord for the last few years because of my sudden fast and furious growing love for the organ, but could it be that playing Bach on a harpsichord requires a more involved and imaginative way of playing, just because the organ is more able to decorate the music with various beautiful registration possibilities? Just wondering.

Here is a wonderful CD I bought in the early 90's.  At the time, the Yale Manuscript had only been recently discovered ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51flhg9fGoL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 30, 2011, 08:07:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 28, 2011, 11:52:20 AM
The trick to coming to terms with Kptk's clavichord recording is to turn the amplifier volume down very low...

You're right, but I think that's the "trick" to listen to the clavichord in general because it's an instrument thought to speak in sotto voce, quietly; for that reason it's probably the most "domestic" of all the usual Baroque keyboards, a wonderful instrument, for instance, to practice when the family was sleeping. Unfortunately, the great majority of us grew up in a world which only knew a single keyboard instrument (and I am a big piano fan, especially if it is a fortepiano or a pianoforte) and our ideas about keyboards are totally modelled on it.

Quote from: Mandryka on April 28, 2011, 11:52:20 AM
Anyway, I suspect you  have a predilection for contemplative introspective  interpretations. But maybe I'm wrong  (you did say you like Verlet -- I've bought the Astree! Velet's  the exception that proves the rule maybe.) ;)

I think Verlet is not one of the natural preferences of our Premont; in any case, a laboriously acquired taste.  :)  Anyway, I love Verlet's second rendition of the Partitas, so personal, feminine and turbulent at times that it's really irresistible to me (I have thought about that version as a sort of intimate diary)... Additionally, she delivers my favorite second partita (and the second partita is my favorite piece of that Clavier-Übung).  :) 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on April 30, 2011, 08:21:07 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 28, 2011, 11:52:20 AM
The trick to coming to terms with Kptk's clavichord recording is to turn the amplifier volume down very low.

This can be tricky if the amplifier does not have good low volume resolution ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on April 30, 2011, 10:28:10 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 30, 2011, 07:26:47 AM
Here is a wonderful CD I bought in the early 90's.  At the time, the Yale Manuscript had only been recently discovered ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51flhg9fGoL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Thanks for the tip! Ordered it at the library. I'm curious how Payne treats these Neumeisters.

Post Scriptum: there is a plus to Payne's French Suites: even though they are less interesting to take a deep dive in, it's good working and/or reading with the sound of these performances on the background. :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2011, 08:15:44 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 30, 2011, 02:55:18 AM
Listening to the French Suites played by Joseph Payne, the man of the famous/notorious Spaced-Out Bach LP's in the seventies (never heard them, though).

The suites were originally released by BIS and then sold to Brilliant Classics for their Bach Integral.

(http://i54.tinypic.com/jph15i.jpg)

It's solid playing IMHO, but really nothing more. Rather stiff even, and the instrument is also sounding a bit 'light-weight', with problems concerning the lute stop. Some of the lower notes don't sound like a lute but return to the 'normal' harpsichord sound, as if the machinery isn't working properly.
Whilst I was listening I thought: if Payne played the organ in this style, with proper registrations, it would sound quite good. I have neglected the harpsichord for the last few years because of my sudden fast and furious growing love for the organ, but could it be that playing Bach on a harpsichord requires a more involved and imaginative way of playing, just because the organ is more able to decorate the music with various beautiful registration possibilities? Just wondering.

I agree with you. Beyond the performance (and "stiff" is a good adjective, IMO) the instrument (a 1979 copy by William Dowd after a two-manual instrument of Johannes Ruckers, 1628) is not working out properly, although my problem is not principally with its lute-stop, but with the "normal" sound of the harpsichord, especially the high notes which sound quite shrilling and unstable in these ears.

Joseph Payne is not a favorite of mine, but I enjoyed his Klavierbüchlein for Wilhelm Friedemann Bach recorded on Hänssler, principally because of the variety of instruments and maybe because his less flexible style is not inappropriate to the propaedeutic goals of this collection.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41N7NXS3N5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Kontrapunctus on May 01, 2011, 01:51:21 PM
Olga Martynova has made some wonderful SACD recordings for Caro Mitis, a Russian audiophile label.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Z1fiwT9nL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on May 01, 2011, 08:37:11 PM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on May 01, 2011, 01:51:21 PM
Olga Martynova has made some wonderful SACD recordings for Caro Mitis, a Russian audiophile label.

Thanks for the tip!
Made me curious enough to ....

;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 07, 2011, 07:31:43 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 28, 2011, 11:52:20 AM
The trick to coming to terms with Kptk's clavichord recording is to turn the amplifier volume down very low.

Of course, but I do not think it makes wonders in the case of Kirkpatrick. As I wrote above - I do not think his way of playing suits the instrument.

Quote from: Mandryka
Anyway, I suspect you  have a predilection for contemplative introspective  interpretations. But maybe I'm wrong  (you did say you like Verlet -- I've bought the Astree! Velet's  the exception that proves the rule maybe.) ;)

You may be right, but I can mention many other exceptions, which prove the rule.  :)


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 07, 2011, 02:25:27 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 30, 2011, 02:55:18 AM

(http://i54.tinypic.com/jph15i.jpg)

It's solid playing IMHO, but really nothing more. Rather stiff even, and the instrument is also sounding a bit 'light-weight',

Yes, deserves oblivion IMO.

Quote from: Marc
Whilst I was listening I thought: if Payne played the organ in this style, with proper registrations, it would sound quite good. I have neglected the harpsichord for the last few years because of my sudden fast and furious growing love for the organ, but could it be that playing Bach on a harpsichord requires a more involved and imaginative way of playing, just because the organ is more able to decorate the music with various beautiful registration possibilities? Just wondering.

Not sure. In my experience it is more difficult to articulate clearly on an organ (even on a small organ in a small church with ultra dry acoustics) than on a harpsichord because of the marginally slower action of the organ trackers. And articulation is IMO more important for the interest than registration - within sensible limits of course. On the other hand you are right in assuming, that Joseph Payne´s organ recordings are more interesting than his harpsichord recordings. He has BTW made a small number of interesting harpsichord recordings f.i. a recording of music by John Bull and another with suites ascribed to Pachelbel, both for BIS.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 07, 2011, 02:41:51 PM
Quote from: milk on April 28, 2011, 04:01:12 PM
What do you think of Levin's strange recording? He uses clavichord, harpsichord, organ, and fortepiano. Perhaps it could be thought to be eccentric? I find it compelling. It rounds things out for me.

Nothing strange about it at all. Like Chorzempa (in his WTC set) Levin is chosing the instrument which he finds most suited to the piece in question. Their choices are not similar all way through though. This kind of interpretation results in less "integration",  but it displays the different character and style of the pieces in a  convincing way in its own right. And I am sure, that the integration mattered less in Bach´s days, where no one would get the idea to listen to - or rather play the entire WTC in one mouthful.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2011, 07:46:01 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 30, 2011, 02:55:18 AM
Listening to the French Suites played by Joseph Payne, the man of the famous/notorious Spaced-Out Bach LP's in the seventies (never heard them, though).

The suites were originally released by BIS and then sold to Brilliant Classics for their Bach Integral.
[....]
It's solid playing IMHO, but really nothing more. Rather stiff even, and the instrument is also sounding a bit 'light-weight', with problems concerning the lute stop. Some of the lower notes don't sound like a lute but return to the 'normal' harpsichord sound, as if the machinery isn't working properly.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2011, 08:15:44 AM
[....]
Joseph Payne is not a favorite of mine, but I enjoyed his Klavierbüchlein for Wilhelm Friedemann Bach recorded on Hänssler, principally because of the variety of instruments and maybe because his less flexible style is not inappropriate to the propaedeutic goals of this collection.
[....]

Thanks for the tip. Might turn into another library order. :)
(Have to slow down on buying .... >:( >:( >:( .... I need more MONEY!!)

Quote from: Marc on April 30, 2011, 02:55:18 AM
Whilst I was listening I thought: if Payne played the organ in this style, with proper registrations, it would sound quite good. I have neglected the harpsichord for the last few years because of my sudden fast and furious growing love for the organ, but could it be that playing Bach on a harpsichord requires a more involved and imaginative way of playing, just because the organ is more able to decorate the music with various beautiful registration possibilities? Just wondering.

Quote from: premont on May 07, 2011, 02:25:27 PM
[....]
Not sure. In my experience it is more difficult to articulate clearly on an organ (even on a small organ in a small church with ultra dry acoustics) than on a harpsichord because of the marginally slower action of the organ trackers. And articulation is IMO more important for the interest than registration - within sensible limits of course. On the other hand you are right in assuming, that Joseph Payne´s organ recordings are more interesting than his harpsichord recordings. He has BTW made a small number of interesting harpsichord recordings f.i. a recording of music by John Bull and another with suites ascribed to Pachelbel, both for BIS.

Yes, I agree that articulation is very important.
And I also have the idea that a harpsichord is a more suitable instrument for proper articulation. But Payne's articulation in the French Suites isn't all that bad IMO. He's at least not putting me asleep with ponderous and/or sticky legato playing.

Still, it's too strict and uninspired to get me enthousiastic.

That's why I thought: this way of playing might work out better on organ, with some colourful registration added.

Well, let's wait and see, sorry: hear. Maybe I'm going to enjoy Payne's performance of the Neumeister chorales .... another poor man's library order :P, arriving presumably next week.

Now give me money (that's what I want)
That's what I want (that's what I want)
Oh yeah, I wanna be free (that's what I want)
Oh, whole lot of money (that's what I want)
That's what I want, oh yeah (that's what I want)
That's what I want!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 08, 2011, 08:09:51 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 08, 2011, 07:46:01 AM
But Payne's articulation in the French Suites isn't all that bad IMO. He's at least not putting me asleep with ponderous and/or sticky legato playing.

Still, it's too strict and uninspired to get me enthousiastic.

Strict, yes, and even if it is not at all that bad, it is not at all that good either. And that is why he puts me asleep with his French suites.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2011, 10:03:36 AM
Quote from: premont on May 08, 2011, 08:09:51 AM
Strict, yes, and even if it is not at all that bad, it is not at all that good either. And that is why he puts me asleep with his French suites.

Sweet dreams! :D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 08, 2011, 10:26:32 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 08, 2011, 10:03:36 AM
Sweet dreams! :D

Yes, and fortunately I fall asleep "tout suite"  (it is the French suites!)  ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Kontrapunctus on May 10, 2011, 05:56:55 PM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on May 01, 2011, 01:51:21 PM
Olga Martynova has made some wonderful SACD recordings for Caro Mitis, a Russian audiophile label.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Z1fiwT9nL._SS400_.jpg)

This recording received a rave review in the new issue of Fanfare.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2011, 09:32:11 PM
This is real joyful, fun music making. Unreservedly recommended:

[asin]B000006PKO[/asin]

I only hav one other recording from Raphael Puyana -- a CD called "The Golden Age of Harpsichord Music" which is similarly a pleasure from start fo finish. A pupil of Wanda Landowska, Puyana clearly inherits some of her capacity for infectious rhythms and her inspired approach to tone and colour. His Cd of Scarlatti sonatas has arrived in the post -- but so far it's unexplored.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 11, 2011, 01:07:12 AM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on May 10, 2011, 05:56:55 PM
This recording received a rave review in the new issue of Fanfare.

Well, I think it is good but not exceptional. Not even in my  top ten harpsichord recordings of these works.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 11, 2011, 02:35:58 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 11, 2011, 01:07:12 AM
Well, I think it is good but not exceptional. Not even in my  top ten harpsichord recordings of these works.

Re: Olga Martynova has made some wonderful SACD recordings for Caro Mitis, a Russian audiophile label.

Premont - thanks for the comments on the above recording; the Fanfare review was indeed excellent and placed on my 'too consider' list; already own Curtis & Jaccottet, so the new recording was not a MUST for me - :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: haydnguy on May 18, 2011, 02:53:14 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 07, 2011, 02:25:27 PM


Yes, deserves oblivion IMO.

Not sure. In my experience it is more difficult to articulate clearly on an organ (even on a small organ in a small church with ultra dry acoustics) than on a harpsichord because of the marginally slower action of the organ trackers. And articulation is IMO more important for the interest than registration - within sensible limits of course. On the other hand you are right in assuming, that Joseph Payne´s organ recordings are more interesting than his harpsichord recordings. He has BTW made a small number of interesting harpsichord recordings f.i. a recording of music by John Bull and another with suites ascribed to Pachelbel, both for BIS.

(http://i54.tinypic.com/jph15i.jpg)

I have this disk and was disappointed in it. Anyone have any recommendations for a replacement to this disk? Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on May 18, 2011, 05:32:07 PM
I have this one.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mB6KmaOGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Meets my needs, but I seem to respond more to Bach on the piano than the harpsichord.

The prices on Amazon marketplace for new copies are rather outrageous--I paid list price for it, which was Virgin's standard two-for price of $11.99, and there are plenty of alternatives.  (The used prices have a much more reasonable range.)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: haydnguy on May 18, 2011, 07:34:26 PM
I'm listening to some Bach in harpsichord right now from the Archiv concertos boxed set and enjoying it very much. I think I'll give the Payne another spin and see if I get a different reaction this time before looking at another one.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S66AHXRPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on May 18, 2011, 08:00:58 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 18, 2011, 05:33:13 PM
Uh wrong picture there! ;D

I saw it and fixed it.  But you were quick on the draw!  The wrong image was only up for about two minutes!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on May 18, 2011, 09:43:00 PM
Quote from: haydnguy on May 18, 2011, 02:53:14 PM
(http://i54.tinypic.com/jph15i.jpg)

I have this disk and was disappointed in it. Anyone have any recommendations for a replacement to this disk? Thanks.  :)

You should visit this thread more often! :) We just went through the French Suites topic - start reading HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.msg508490.html#msg508490).

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DavidW on May 19, 2011, 07:30:29 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on May 18, 2011, 08:00:58 PM
I saw it and fixed it.  But you were quick on the draw!  The wrong image was only up for about two minutes!

Yeah I had been sitting at my computer ripping music, copying files etc bored out of my mind! :D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on June 26, 2011, 02:40:06 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) link=topic=981.msg500356#msg500356 date=1301092873 On the thread:Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)


Concerning the different dynamic variation in these two recordings it is important to remember, that the dynamic range of baroque instuments is more limited than the dynamic range of their romantic counterparts.


Quote from: (: premont :) link=topic=289.msg510017#msg510017 date=1304015304 on the thread Re: Bach on the Harpsichord (lute-harpsichord, clavichord, etc.)
Do you consider variety an aim per se?

Swingle singers and Wendy Carlos were also quite original.


Your point about dynaic variation is understood, but sometimes I find that it's a problem. In the Goldberg Variations I like the varied dynamics that some pianists bring to the music -- by contrast the harpsichord can sometimes be stifling, sufforcating.

But you and others here have made me aware that pianists tend tp sweeten  the music, and I can see that that isn't always good thing.

For these reasons I've started to explore  transcriptions of Bach's music  for guitar -- a plucked instrument with more dynamic variation than the harpsichord. I'm exploring this one at the moment.

I'd like to find a WTC in the same style -- anyone any ideas?


[asin]B0000029M2[/asin]

One thing I like about it is that there's a sense of fun in the music making. There's nothing reverential, nothing poker faced.  I like Busoni's transcription of The Goldbergs for piano for similar reasons.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Kontrapunctus on June 26, 2011, 01:14:41 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 26, 2011, 02:40:06 AM


Your point about dynaic variation is understood, but sometimes I find that it's a problem. In the Goldberg Variations I like the varied dynamics that some pianists bring to the music -- by contrast the harpsichord can sometimes be stifling, sufforcating.

But you and others here have made me aware that pianists tend tp sweeten  the music, and I can see that that isn't always good thing.

For these reasons I've started to explore  transcriptions of Bach's music  for guitar -- a plucked instrument with more dynamic variation than the harpsichord. I'm exploring this one at the moment.

I'd like to find a WTC in the same style -- anyone any ideas?


[asin]B0000029M2[/asin]

One thing I like about it is that there's a sense of fun in the music making. There's nothing reverential, nothing poker faced.  I like Busoni's transcription of The Goldbergs for piano for similar reasons.

I love Rodarmer's disc. Of course, he used multi-tracking technology in order to be able to play all of the notes, but the results are outstanding. Joszef Eotvos has a single guitar version and he has a multi-tracked version of The Art of the Fugue. No WTC that I know of...yet!

Here's a video of him playing the Aira and 1st variation:

http://www.youtube.com/v/82yHKIsQ13Y
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on June 28, 2011, 04:28:52 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 26, 2011, 02:40:06 AM
Your point about dynaic variation is understood, but sometimes I find that it's a problem. In the Goldberg Variations I like the varied dynamics that some pianists bring to the music -- by contrast the harpsichord can sometimes be stifling, sufforcating.

Wel, a question of taste. As you may guess, I do not usually find that this is a problem, but of course it depends upon the harpsichordist´s imagination and expression.

Quote from: Mandryka
One thing I like about it is that there's a sense of fun in the music making. There's nothing reverential, nothing poker faced.  I like Busoni's transcription of The Goldbergs for piano for similar reasons.

I am tempted to recommend to you the recording of the Goldberg variations by Elena Barshai on Brilliant Classics. Ther you will find a rewarding sense of fun in the music making.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on June 28, 2011, 08:41:57 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 28, 2011, 04:28:52 AM

I am tempted to recommend to you the recording of the Goldberg variations by Elena Barshai on Brilliant Classics. Ther you will find a rewarding sense of fun in the music making.

I'll try it -- I've learned that nearly everything you suggest is interesting.

Don't forget that you promised to think of CU3 recordings for me -- I've played parts of  it (Walcha mono and stereo) most every day for the mast month now and I love the music.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on June 28, 2011, 10:02:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 28, 2011, 08:41:57 AM
I've learned that nearly everything you suggest is interesting.

Thanks.  :)

Quote from: Mandryka on June 28, 2011, 08:41:57 AM
Don't forget that you promised to think of CU3 recordings for me -- I've played parts of  it (Walcha mono and stereo) most every day for the mast month now and I love the music.

Yes, I have this in my mind.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: springrite on July 26, 2011, 08:28:47 AM
On the just completed business trip, I brought along Karl Richter's Goldberg Variation recording and finally Bach begin to sound good on the harpsichord. Now I have put a number of Bach harpsichord recordings in my shopping cart, various recordings by Egarr, Hill, Hantai, etc. This thread has been a major help for me in this regard. Thanks!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on July 26, 2011, 06:36:50 PM
Quote from: springrite on July 26, 2011, 08:28:47 AM
On the just completed business trip, I brought along Karl Richter's Goldberg Variation recording and finally Bach begin to sound good on the harpsichord. Now I have put a number of Bach harpsichord recordings in my shopping cart, various recordings by Egarr, Hill, Hantai, etc. This thread has been a major help for me in this regard. Thanks!

If it is not too late, delete Egarr from your cart and put on Staier.  Egarr's performance seems to provide proof of the old legend that Bach wrote the Variations as a cure for a listener's insomnia.
The only real virtue to his recording is that he includes the Canons.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on July 31, 2011, 06:54:04 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AnTtc4ynL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Reviewers I trust have been fairly critical of efforts to record the Goldbergs on the Organ. Donald Satz was less than impressed with an organ version by Bernard Lagacé and Kirk McElhearn went so far as to suggest (reviewing Käte van Trich) that "the music just does not work on this instrument." I've trusted these particular reviewers because I've found their recommendations and warnings to be right on the money. Thus,  I approached this recording with a bit of trepidation. However, this interpretation on organ by Gunther Rost really thrills me. One reviewer on amazon called it, disparagingly, "drunken Bach." But I'm just loving it. I wonder what others think.
I decided not to post this in the organ forum. That might be wrong. If so, I hope we can move this post.
 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2011, 10:31:42 AM
Quote from: milk on July 31, 2011, 06:54:04 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AnTtc4ynL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Reviewers I trust have been fairly critical of efforts to record the Goldbergs on the Organ. Donald Satz was less than impressed with an organ version by Bernard Lagacé and Kirk McElhearn went so far as to suggest (reviewing Käte van Trich) that "the music just does not work on this instrument." I've trusted these particular reviewers because I've found their recommendations and warnings to be right on the money. Thus,  I approached this recording with a bit of trepidation. However, this interpretation on organ by Gunther Rost really thrills me. One reviewer on amazon called it, disparagingly, "drunken Bach." But I'm just loving it. I wonder what others think.
I decided not to post this in the organ forum. That might be wrong. If so, I hope we can move this post.


Don Satz of course is our own 'Bulldog' - I read his review mentioned above and will be curious if he has heard this newer recording; on Amazon, Scott Morrison gave this only a 1* rating w/ many derogatory comments, somewhat unusual for him but obviously not his 'cup of tea' (and he is one of the few reviewers on Amazon that I do read positively).

I have a half dozen or so recordings of these works and on different instruments, including guitar, clavichord, harp, & woodwind ensemble, but I do not own an organ version - so will be interested in others' comments - :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on July 31, 2011, 10:35:10 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2011, 10:31:42 AM

I have a half dozen or so recordings of these works and on different instruments, including guitar, clavichord, harp, & woodwind ensemble, but I do not own an organ version - so will be interested in others' comments - :)

I gave it a couple of shots, but found it unconvincing without being bad.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on July 31, 2011, 11:00:54 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2011, 10:31:42 AM
[....]
I have a half dozen or so recordings of these works and on different instruments, including guitar, clavichord, harp, & woodwind ensemble, but I do not own an organ version - so will be interested in others' comments - :)

Quote from: (: premont :) on June 28, 2011, 04:28:52 AM
I am tempted to recommend [....] the recording of the Goldberg variations by Elena Barshai on Brilliant Classics. There you will find a rewarding sense of fun in the music making.

Seconded.

(http://i52.tinypic.com/2v3h5rd.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Goldberg-Variations-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B001EQPD38/

Gunther Rost's version I do not know yet (?).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on July 31, 2011, 01:13:29 PM
Quote from: milk on July 31, 2011, 06:54:04 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AnTtc4ynL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Reviewers I trust have been fairly critical of efforts to record the Goldbergs on the Organ. Donald Satz was less than impressed with an organ version by Bernard Lagacé and Kirk McElhearn went so far as to suggest (reviewing Käte van Trich) that "the music just does not work on this instrument." I've trusted these particular reviewers because I've found their recommendations and warnings to be right on the money. Thus,  I approached this recording with a bit of trepidation. However, this interpretation on organ by Gunther Rost really thrills me. One reviewer on amazon called it, disparagingly, "drunken Bach." But I'm just loving it. I wonder what others think.

I think of it as a mixed bag.  On the positive side, some of the pieces are a blast to listen to (23/27/29 and more) and I've never heard a more beautiful var. 21.  Unfortunately, Rost seems to have an addiction for screwing around with tempo; it's not just in the form of rhythmic hesitations but more the slowing down of an entire phrase.  This addiction is strongest in the first half of the performance, so I did prefer the second half.  Overall, I wouldn't mind having this recording, but it's not one I would seek out.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on July 31, 2011, 01:49:58 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2011, 10:31:42 AM
Don Satz of course is our own 'Bulldog' - I read his review mentioned above and will be curious if he has heard this newer recording; on Amazon, Scott Morrison gave this only a 1* rating w/ many derogatory comments, somewhat unusual for him but obviously not his 'cup of tea' (and he is one of the few reviewers on Amazon that I do read positively).

I have a half dozen or so recordings of these works and on different instruments, including guitar, clavichord, harp, & woodwind ensemble, but I do not own an organ version - so will be interested in others' comments - :)
What version do you have on clavichord? How is it? I came across a clavichord version on itunes by someone named Benjamin-Joseph Steens. I'd never heard of him before and the samples didn't entice me.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on July 31, 2011, 01:58:17 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on July 31, 2011, 01:13:29 PM
I think of it as a mixed bag.  On the positive side, some of the pieces are a blast to listen to (23/27/29 and more) and I've never heard a more beautiful var. 21.  Unfortunately, Rost seems to have an addiction for screwing around with tempo; it's not just in the form of rhythmic hesitations but more the slowing down of an entire phrase.  This addiction is strongest in the first half of the performance, so I did prefer the second half.  Overall, I wouldn't mind having this recording, but it's not one I would seek out.

Thanks for your comments.
Is there another organ version that you recommend? What about a version on clavichord? Incidentally, have you heard the Gamba sonatas by Markus Hunninger & Paolo Pandolfo? This is something else that's rather new that I'm enjoying.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 31, 2011, 02:10:20 PM
Quote from: milk on July 31, 2011, 01:49:58 PM
What version do you have on clavichord? How is it? I came across a clavichord version on itunes by someone named Benjamin-Joseph Steens. I'd never heard of him before and the samples didn't entice me.

Jaroslav Tůma.

It's a 2-CD set with two complete interpretations, both on clavichord (a "two-manual" clavichord, read the info below) and harpsichord.

http://www.youtube.com/v/v7IyetFoUkI
(This ClarkVega is a nice chap!  ;D)


Here you will find all the information that you need: http://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=f10136en&site=en

:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2011, 02:51:29 PM
Quote from: milk on July 31, 2011, 01:49:58 PM
What version do you have on clavichord? How is it? I came across a clavichord version on itunes by someone named Benjamin-Joseph Steens. I'd never heard of him before and the samples didn't entice me.

Hi Milk - the performer shown on the disc below (left) is Jaroslav Tůma - actually a 2-CD package (in a 1-disc sized jewel box - love it!) - Goldbergs are played on the clavichord on 1 disc & on a harpsichord on the 2nd disc - cannot remember where I purchased this set but a great combo if the price is right!

Also, if you like the clavichord, I own the 4-CD set w/ the same performer doing the WTC, both books - Dave  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachGoldbergTuma/949289381_nFEdn-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachWTCTuma/949289393_zRK8V-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2011, 03:00:19 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on July 31, 2011, 01:13:29 PM
I think of it as a mixed bag.  On the positive side, some of the pieces are a blast to listen to (23/27/29 and more) and I've never heard a more beautiful var. 21.  Unfortunately, Rost seems to have an addiction for screwing around with tempo; it's not just in the form of rhythmic hesitations but more the slowing down of an entire phrase.  This addiction is strongest in the first half of the performance, so I did prefer the second half.  Overall, I wouldn't mind having this recording, but it's not one I would seek out.

Hi Don - I believe that a number of us are curious as to 'organ' versions of the Goldberg Variations - for myself, I'd like a 'smaller' and more intimate organ (and not an 'organ expert' -  ;) :D) - would appreciate any thoughts of those recordings that you know - thanks, as always - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on July 31, 2011, 04:12:55 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2011, 03:00:19 PM
Hi Don - I believe that a number of us are curious as to 'organ' versions of the Goldberg Variations - for myself, I'd like a 'smaller' and more intimate organ (and not an 'organ expert' -  ;) :D) - would appreciate any thoughts of those recordings that you know - thanks, as always - Dave  :)

As far as I know, there aren't many organ versions to be had, and I haven't been very fond of the ones I've heard.  But there is an organ arrangement I very much like:

Wilhelm Middelschulte - Organ Works, Vol. 4
Goldberg Variations Arranged for Organ
MDG 777215 [2cds - 100:54]

This is a "heavy" performance, rather slow and every repeat is observed.  That's the opposite of the Rost recording; his thorough answer to how to handle the repeats is to delete them from the landscape.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on July 31, 2011, 07:01:45 PM
Quote from: milk on July 31, 2011, 01:58:17 PM
Incidentally, have you heard the Gamba sonatas by Markus Hunninger & Paolo Pandolfo?

Yes I have as well as Pandolfo's first recording these works on Harmonia Mundi back in the 1990's.  I wasn't impressed then, and I can't say I'm impressed by the new recording.  My problem with Pandolofo is that I don't find his playing sufficiently powerful at times.  Basically, I just don't connect with him.

My favored recording is Quintana and Frisch on Harmonia Mundi.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on August 01, 2011, 04:02:29 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on July 31, 2011, 07:01:45 PM
Yes I have as well as Pandolfo's first recording these works on Harmonia Mundi back in the 1990's.  I wasn't impressed then, and I can't say I'm impressed by the new recording.  My problem with Pandolofo is that I don't find his playing sufficiently powerful at times.  Basically, I just don't connect with him.

My favored recording is Quintana and Frisch on Harmonia Mundi.

Thanks. I followed the advice in your comparative review and purchased the Quintana and Frisch version a while back. I wasn't disappointed. I also like the Crum version which I believe you recommended - with reservations. I probably own all the various Bach recordings you've recommended. As for Pandolfo, while I didn't enjoy his gamba version of the cello suites (I'm really in love with the Kuijken da spalla version - another recording to ask you about!), I do enjoy his new gamba sonatas. But I've read closely all your reservations in regards to the cello suites and gamba sonatas and avoided some recordings based on those observations. 
Incidentally, have you written any reviews recently? I'd like to know where to look in case you're publishing anything online. I've looked at the cantatas site countless times. I wish I could see more discussion between you, Bradley Lehman and Kirk McElhearn as well as more reviews. A few years ago I fell in love with Bach kind of out of the blue - I had no previous interest in classical music. I think all those discussions and reviews on the Cantata site encouraged me and facilitated my interest in this music. That's a valuable service to the music...not a small thing.       
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on August 01, 2011, 04:03:43 AM
Quote from: toñito on July 31, 2011, 02:10:20 PM
Jaroslav Tůma.

It's a 2-CD set with two complete interpretations, both on clavichord (a "two-manual" clavichord, read the info below) and harpsichord.

http://www.youtube.com/v/v7IyetFoUkI
(This ClarkVega is a nice chap!  ;D)


Here you will find all the information that you need: http://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=f10136en&site=en

:)

Thanks. That's a great link. Now I must machinate over whether I need this!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on August 01, 2011, 04:07:40 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2011, 02:51:29 PM
Hi Milk - the performer shown on the disc below (left) is Jaroslav Tůma - actually a 2-CD package (in a 1-disc sized jewel box - love it!) - Goldbergs are played on the clavichord on 1 disc & on a harpsichord on the 2nd disc - cannot remember where I purchased this set but a great combo if the price is right!

Also, if you like the clavichord, I own the 4-CD set w/ the same performer doing the WTC, both books - Dave  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachGoldbergTuma/949289381_nFEdn-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachWTCTuma/949289393_zRK8V-O.jpg)

I had the Tuma WTC at one point and, for some reason, didn't fall in love with it. But maybe I should search for it and try again.
So, do you feel the this version really adds something to your life? Would you say this is a must-have (these questions are for Tonito also)? I do like the clavichord. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 01, 2011, 05:36:39 AM
Quote from: milk on August 01, 2011, 04:07:40 AM
I had the Tuma WTC at one point and, for some reason, didn't fall in love with it. But maybe I should search for it and try again.
So, do you feel the this version really adds something to your life? Would you say this is a must-have (these questions are for Tonito also)? I do like the clavichord.

Well, I'm not sure that a 'clavichord' version of the Goldberg Variations is a 'must-have' in your life; of course, you must like the instrument which I do - listening to the disc as I type and enjoying; the instrument is well made & tuned and Tuma does play quite well.  I've just been a collector of these works performed in different ways and on various types of instruments - have always enjoyed 'transcriptions' (like to the guitar) of classical pieces, so do search them out; others may have the opposite feeling?  Good luck in your choice(s) - :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on August 01, 2011, 09:03:35 AM
Quote from: milk on August 01, 2011, 04:02:29 AM
Incidentally, have you written any reviews recently? I'd like to know where to look in case you're publishing anything online. I've looked at the cantatas site countless times. I wish I could see more discussion between you, Bradley Lehman and Kirk McElhearn as well as more reviews.

I haven't written any reviews in recent years.  When I retired, I thought I would be doing more reviews than ever.  However, the reviews became a chore for me so I stopped.  Maybe that will change, don't know.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on August 01, 2011, 04:41:08 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 01, 2011, 09:03:35 AM
I haven't written any reviews in recent years.  When I retired, I thought I would be doing more reviews than ever.  However, the reviews became a chore for me so I stopped.  Maybe that will change, don't know.
It's interesting that no one else has attempted anything like it (as far as I've found). Some day I'd like to see a comparison of recordings of Bach's harpsichord concertos.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on August 02, 2011, 10:14:59 AM
Quote from: milk on August 01, 2011, 04:41:08 PM
It's interesting that no one else has attempted anything like it (as far as I've found). Some day I'd like to see a comparison of recordings of Bach's harpsichord concertos.

Those reviews I did took a huge number of hours; most folks don't want to devote so much time to one work or body of works.

I have to admit that, even if I was still doing those long reviews, I wouldn't tackle the harpsichord concertos.  You have to possess great love for music that you listen to for dozens of hours.  That wasn't any problem for me with works such the Goldbergs and WTC, but I would tire of the concertos long before the review process was concluded; that's exactly what happened to me when I tried it with the Brandenburgs.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 02, 2011, 04:56:30 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 02, 2011, 10:14:59 AM
Those reviews I did took a huge number of hours; most folks don't want to devote so much time to one work or body of works.

Milk - I fully understand Don's point although I do not write musical reviews; I'm a 'just retired' academic radiologist who in a 34-year career did a lot of research and writing - often the published articles were only 3-4 pages in length (the usual nature of medical articles), but the time spent in collecting the data, in analyzing the results, in writing and finalizing the final drafts; then submitting the article to a peer-reviewed journal which if possibly accepted required more time & revisions - THIS takes much time - Don's point is well taken - just another viewpoint -  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on August 03, 2011, 05:03:13 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 02, 2011, 04:56:30 PM
Milk - I fully understand Don's point although I do not write musical reviews; I'm a 'just retired' academic radiologist who in a 34-year career did a lot of research and writing - often the published articles were only 3-4 pages in length (the usual nature of medical articles), but the time spent in collecting the data, in analyzing the results, in writing and finalizing the final drafts; then submitting the article to a peer-reviewed journal which if possibly accepted required more time & revisions - THIS takes much time - Don's point is well taken - just another viewpoint -  :)
Yeah sure. I get it. I'm an M.A. in a humanities-related field and a university instructor. I'm pretty lazy when it comes to researching/publishing. But I think medical research is much more arduous. I can imagine. And this music is a real love. We can see the love Don has for the music but also the incredible concentration and time that goes into the articles. I'd love to see updates from Don if he ever feels the need to do any. I've tried to find/follow his reviews as much as possible. I think, if I'm not mistaken, he did a nice one for Handel's keyboard suites (I have the Dantone which I think was his recommendation). I can also see his point about the Brandenburgs and the concertos. I have a particular love for the concertos (has anybody heard the Plectra live recordings? - great!). But there is a lesser complexity - perhaps - to them. Solo keyboard music - especially Bach's - is more amenable to this kind of process I guess. Bach's keyboard music is as deep as the ocean - as it were (including my favorite: the partitas!). I'll be patient and see if more reviews emerge in the years to come. In the meantime, I can always go back to them to gain more insight. Of course, the insight is in the music itself. As I said before, the reviews really helped me deepen my journey into the music. That's the important thing isn't it. Sorry for my rambling!     
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on August 30, 2011, 11:19:33 PM
I enjoyed the second French suite on this recording from Thurston Dart which I found on spotify

(http://127.0.0.1:9000/spotifyimage/spotify:image:d9a550669bb28275f7a73e3c31b0fe6f4a170d5a/cover.jpg)

I listened to a few recordings of FR2 and this is the one that appealed the most. His clavichord is as twangy and colourful as Kirkpatrick's harpsichord on Archiv . But although I like Kirkpatrick I found that the sound of his instrument became annoying after a few of the movements while I was happy to stay the course with Dart's clavichord.

Another thing I like about Dart is that he doesn't hang around. But it's  not bravura style at all, he's a thinker not a showman. Anyway it's well worth trying if you've got spotify, and if anyone knows any other good clavichord recordings of these suites  please let me know.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on August 31, 2011, 09:50:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 30, 2011, 11:19:33 PM
I enjoyed the second French suite on this recording from Thurston Dart which I found on spotify

(http://127.0.0.1:9000/spotifyimage/spotify:image:d9a550669bb28275f7a73e3c31b0fe6f4a170d5a/cover.jpg)

I listened to a few recordings of FR2 and this is the one that appealed the most. His clavichord is as twangy and colourful as Kirkpatrick's harpsichord on Archiv . But although I like Kirkpatrick I found that the sound of his instrument became annoying after a few of the movements while I was happy to stay the course with Dart's clavichord.

Another thing I like about Dart is that he doesn't hang around. But it's  not bravura style at all, he's a thinker not a showman. Anyway it's well worth trying if you've got spotify, and if anyone knows any other good clavichord recordings of these suites  please let me know.
I haven't tapped into spotify, but I'll get there someday. I would enjoy hearing the Dart performance on clavichord.

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or on the "Recordings That You Are Considering" thread, but since it's tangentially related, Ilton Wjuniski's French Suites are indeed a recording that I am considering, and one that might interest you as well. Wjuniski plays the six standard French Suites on harpsichord, adding preludes from the rest of Bach's oeuvre. But he also plays the suites BWV 819 (E flat) and 818a (A minor), both on clavichord. Judging from the previews at the iTunes Store, I like both the interpretations and the instrument choices.

(http://media.jazzstore.com/cache/w200/products-00-0022-00223573-ilton-wjuniski-bach-french-suites.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on September 04, 2011, 07:48:18 PM
Assuming "non-piano" means "harpsichord", the Cates you've got is certainly a fine version. I also like Davitt Moroney and Bradley Brookshire (respectively a bit straightlaced and a bit loosey-goosey — both in a good way). And I just recently acquired this set (http://www.gmrecordings.com/gm2075.htm) by Iltan Wjuniski on GM, which is also very fine and which has the added appeal of bundling in the extra suites BWV 818a, 819 (with the extra Allemande from 819a) and 823 (incomplete) — all of these extras played on clavichord. If I'm not mistaken, Cates gives you most of the same extras, but on harpsichord.

(http://www.gmrecordings.com/images/gm2075s.jpg)

Christophe Rousset's extroverted performances also have many fans. But for me all of Rousset's recordings on Ambroisie are spoiled by excessively reverberant acoustics. If you haven't already heard the Rousset, checking out the previews at a site like Amazon will be enough to tell you if you can tolerate — possibly even revel in — all that reverb.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on September 04, 2011, 08:18:54 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on September 04, 2011, 07:48:18 PM
Christophe Rousset's extroverted performances also have many fans. But for me all of Rousset's recordings on Ambroisie are spoiled by excessively reverberant acoustics.

It's good to know that I'm not the only person who finds Rousset/Ambroisie overly reverberant. 8)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on September 04, 2011, 10:52:21 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on September 04, 2011, 08:18:54 PM
It's good to know that I'm not the only person who finds Rousset/Ambroisie overly reverberant. 8)

You're not the only person. Those recordings are overly reverberant.
It's just that I LOVE it!  ;)

They are in fact my favorite recording of the French Suites, a spot they share with Blandine Rannou (ZigZag).

I don't have a favorite piano version, yet... so by default it probably is Angela Hewitt. (That I like Keith Jarrett in that repertoire is a personal quirk that I wouldn't try to argue with too much force.)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 05, 2011, 08:05:32 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on September 04, 2011, 07:48:18 PM
Assuming "non-piano" means "harpsichord", the Cates you've got is certainly a fine version. I also like Davitt Moroney and Bradley Brookshire (respectively a bit straightlaced and a bit loosey-goosey — both in a good way). And I just recently acquired this set (http://www.gmrecordings.com/gm2075.htm) by Iltan Wjuniski on GM, which is also very fine and which has the added appeal of bundling in the extra suites BWV 818a, 819 (with the extra Allemande from 819a) and 823 (incomplete) — all of these extras played on clavichord. If I'm not mistaken, Cates gives you most of the same extras, but on harpsichord.

(http://www.gmrecordings.com/images/gm2075s.jpg)



Paul - forgot to mention that I also have the 3 discs of Alan Curtis doing both sets on the harpsichord, so w/ Cates, I'm happy w/ those 2 versions; but the mention of the clavichord above peaked my interest - just have a handful of discs played on that instrument - I'm assuming that Iltan Wjuniski performs the suites on a harpsichord?  Thanks - Dave :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on September 05, 2011, 10:59:22 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 05, 2011, 08:05:32 AM
Paul - forgot to mention that I also have the 3 discs of Alan Curtis doing both sets on the harpsichord, so w/ Cates, I'm happy w/ those 2 versions; but the mention of the clavichord above peaked my interest - just have a handful of discs played on that instrument - I'm assuming that Iltan Wjuniski performs the suites on a harpsichord?  Thanks - Dave :)
SonicMan, that's right — the 6 French Suites on harpsichord, and 3 (really 2 1/2) bonus suites on clavichord.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on September 05, 2011, 11:20:16 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 05, 2011, 08:05:32 AM
Paul - forgot to mention that I also have the 3 discs of Alan Curtis doing both sets on the harpsichord, so w/ Cates, I'm happy w/ those 2 versions; but the mention of the clavichord above peaked my interest - just have a handful of discs played on that instrument - I'm assuming that Iltan Wjuniski performs the suites on a harpsichord?  Thanks - Dave :)

The same here.  I have about a dozen of recordings with Alan Curtis on the keyboard.  That is in addition to having just about every Handel opera recorded by him ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on September 19, 2011, 09:51:47 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 19, 2011, 07:45:12 AM
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Baumont-K01-4a%5BErato-CD%5D.jpg)

Hi Q - assume the same Baumont performance shown below (on the cheaper Apex label) - for myself, I own the 2-CD set of the 'Complete Transcriptions' w/ Elizabeth Farr - some 'mixed' reviews on Amazon (although 5* comments from Scott Morrison), but a superlative review from Fanfare, reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=309785), which prompted my purchase! - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41iWWzMKc7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GfuysznNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)   

Indeed it is the same, Dave.  :)

I don't know the set by Elizabeth Farr, wasn't even aware of its existence.
I have the complete set of arranged concertos by Peter Watchorn - pictured below. Solid, serviceable performances in comparison to Baumont's utter elegance and charm.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ilr2U8l4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 20, 2011, 06:05:10 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on September 19, 2011, 09:51:47 PM
Indeed it is the same, Dave.  :)

I don't know the set by Elizabeth Farr, wasn't even aware of its existence.
I have the complete set of arranged concertos by Peter Watchorn - pictured below. Solid, serviceable performances in comparison to Baumont's utter elegance and charm.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ilr2U8l4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Thanks Q - I do have Watchorn in a number of Bach's keyboard works but not these concertos - may have to add the Baumont to my Amazon cart, especially at the low asking price!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on September 20, 2011, 06:10:10 PM
I have this one:
[asin]B00001QEJX[/asin]

Three on organ (BWV 593, 594 and 596) and three on harpsichord (BWV 972, 976 and 980)

As far as it goes, it's good; but obviously it's incomplete.

I have, and like, the Farr; in fact, I like it far better than her companion recording of the works for lute/lautenwerk.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Kontrapunctus on September 22, 2011, 01:48:26 PM
I understand that Gustav Leonhardt transcribed Bach's Chaconne for harpsichord, but I can't find any recordings. Can anyone help out here?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on September 22, 2011, 04:53:50 PM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on September 22, 2011, 01:48:26 PM
I understand that Gustav Leonhardt transcribed Bach's Chaconne for harpsichord, but I can't find any recordings. Can anyone help out here?

I believe it's on a 2-cd set of Bach transcriptions on the DHM label.  I noticed that Amazon has a used copy for about $84.  I'll pass on that one.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 22, 2011, 10:51:12 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on September 22, 2011, 04:53:50 PM
I believe it's on a 2-cd set of Bach transcriptions on the DHM label.  I noticed that Amazon has a used copy for about $84.  I'll pass on that one.

He transcribed and recorded the 6 solo violin pieces and the cellosuites 4 - 6. In short outstanding.

Edit: The violin sonata 2 and the first movement of violin sonata 3 he recorded (of course) in Bach´s own transcription.
         He recorded the violin sonata 3 twice.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 23, 2011, 12:21:20 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 22, 2011, 10:51:12 PM
He transcribed and recorded the 6 solo violin pieces and the cellosuites 4 - 6. In short outstanding.

Edit: The violin sonata 2 and the first movement of violin sonata 3 he recorded (of course) in Bach´s own transcription.
         He recorded the violin sonata 3 twice.

Agreed. This is one of my favourite GL records.

The CD I have is this one .

(http://i1.fastpic.ru/big/2010/0131/65/ed00460c31d8722a97a389f653e1f165.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Kontrapunctus on September 23, 2011, 12:22:44 PM
Ouch. $84 is a bit steep. Thanks, though!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 23, 2011, 12:25:12 PM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on September 23, 2011, 12:22:44 PM
Ouch. $84 is a bit steep. Thanks, though!

There's a torrent from Russia.

What is the date of the recording? The Bach Cantatas website doesn't give a date -- my guess is it's quite early. But that is a guess  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 23, 2011, 02:52:56 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 23, 2011, 12:25:12 PM
What is the date of the recording? The Bach Cantatas website doesn't give a date -- my guess is it's quite early. But that is a guess  :)

BWV 1001, 1005 & 1012 was recorded 1985.
Harpsichord by Martin Skowroneck 1984 after late French models (the so called Nicolas Lefebvre).

BWV 1002, 1004 & 1006 was recorded June 1975.
Harpsichord by William Dowd 1975 after Blanchet 1730.

The prel., fugue and allegro was recorded Sept. 1965.
Harpsichord by Carl August Gräbner 1782.

He also recorded BWV 1003 & 1005 for Telefunken P1969 and BWV 1010 & 1011 for Seon/Sony (AFAIR without consulting my shelves)  in the late 70es.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 23, 2011, 09:38:27 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 23, 2011, 02:52:56 PM
BWV 1001, 1005 & 1012 was recorded 1985.
Harpsichord by Martin Skowroneck 1984 after late French models (the so called Nicolas Lefebvre).

BWV 1002, 1004 & 1006 was recorded June 1975.
Harpsichord by William Dowd 1975 after Blanchet 1730.

The prel., fugue and allegro was recorded Sept. 1965.
Harpsichord by Carl August Gräbner 1782.

He also recorded BWV 1003 & 1005 for Telefunken P1969 and BWV 1010 & 1011 for Seon/Sony (AFAIR without consulting my shelves)  in the late 70es.

Right -- so quite a wide timespan.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on September 26, 2011, 10:03:33 AM


http://www.youtube.com/v/boH9VwqxgcI


Ketil Haugsand (German style harpsichord after Christian Zell 1725)

J.S. Bach: Keyboard Partita in D major, BWV 828

I Ouverture
II Allemande
III Courante
IV Aria
V Sarabande
VI Menuet
VII Gigue
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on September 26, 2011, 10:25:05 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 26, 2011, 10:03:33 AM
[youtube link]

Ketil Haugsand (German style harpsichord after Christian Zell 1725)

J.S. Bach: Keyboard Partita in D major, BWV 828

WOW! Thanks! :)

Very good sound quality of this complete Bach composition upload, taken from a disc that isn't even OOP!
After listening, copy and paste from your Temporary Internet Files folder to one of your own fave directories, convert it and .... there you go, very handy indeed.

Quote from: jlaurson on May 23, 2011, 06:30:37 AM
via Alex Ross


(http://thewire.co.uk/resources/thewire-logo.png)

Collateral Damage

The True Cost of Uploading


http://thewire.co.uk/articles/6715/ (http://thewire.co.uk/articles/6715/)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on September 26, 2011, 01:45:05 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 26, 2011, 10:25:05 AM
WOW! Thanks! :)

Very good sound quality of this complete Bach composition upload, taken from a disc that isn't even OOP!
After listening, copy and paste from your Temporary Internet Files folder to one of your own fave directories, convert it and .... there you go, very handy indeed.

Ketil put it up himself, or at least approved of it... so there is no irony involved here.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 26, 2011, 02:11:02 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 26, 2011, 01:45:05 PM
Ketil put it up himself, or at least approved of it... so there is no irony involved here.

I don't know if Ketil Haugsand approves this upload, but the uploader is our masolino aka flautotraverso.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on September 26, 2011, 10:17:47 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 26, 2011, 02:11:02 PM
I don't know if Ketil Haugsand approves this upload, but the uploader is our masolino aka flautotraverso.
You don't, but I do.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 28, 2011, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 26, 2011, 10:17:47 PM
You don't, but I do.

How do you do?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on September 28, 2011, 10:16:37 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 28, 2011, 09:59:50 AM
How do you do?

Because I know him and he sent me the link for promulgation... it was his "Never start a morning without Bach" 'gift'...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on September 28, 2011, 11:54:38 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 28, 2011, 10:16:37 AM
Because I know him and he sent me the link for promulgation... it was his "Never start a morning without Bach" 'gift'...

Hey!
What about afternoon, evening and night?

Three more uploads, plz.

:P
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 28, 2011, 02:37:44 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 28, 2011, 11:54:38 AM
Hey!
What about afternoon, evening and night?

Three more uploads, plz.

:P

Not so fast, Marc! I think we need to know if it was received the authorization from Simax to upload this piece. It's nice to know that Haugsand approves this upload, but it is necessary to know if Simax authorized it. I think I will just listen to my original copy. I mean to be legally sure.  ;) 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on September 29, 2011, 12:25:33 AM

http://www.youtube.com/v/Yn0HAWX1TSA


Ketil Haugsand also recommends this. Undoubtedly stolen from somewhere else. Probably W+/- Carlos.
;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 02, 2011, 09:37:51 PM
(http://www4.alibris-static.com/cover/n16750e3sb1.jpg)
I'm hoping maybe Bulldog (Mr. Satz) might give us his impressions of this recording somewhere down the line. So far I'm enjoying it for it's clarity and wonderful sound quality.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on October 04, 2011, 10:06:50 AM
Quote from: milk on October 02, 2011, 09:37:51 PM
(http://www4.alibris-static.com/cover/n16750e3sb1.jpg)
I'm hoping maybe Bulldog (Mr. Satz) might give us his impressions of this recording somewhere down the line. So far I'm enjoying it for it's clarity and wonderful sound quality.

I've only listened twice to Devine's Goldbergs.  I certainly agree that the sound is superb but have some reservations about the performances.  So far, I sense that Devine doesn't drive the music forward sufficiently, especially in the faster variations.  He likes rhythmic hesitations and some staggering of musical lines; I usually like this also, but with Devine I'm finding it a hindrance to the musical flow.
Also, he makes a caricature of the 6th Variation with his insistence on a vertical humpty-dumpty rhythm.  Sounds like something a small child would prefer.

Of course, I'll be listening more and trying to get a better idea of Devine's aesthetic.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 05, 2011, 06:07:40 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on October 04, 2011, 10:06:50 AM
I've only listened twice to Devine's Goldbergs.  I certainly agree that the sound is superb but have some reservations about the performances.  So far, I sense that Devine doesn't drive the music forward sufficiently, especially in the faster variations.  He likes rhythmic hesitations and some staggering of musical lines; I usually like this also, but with Devine I'm finding it a hindrance to the musical flow.
Also, he makes a caricature of the 6th Variation with his insistence on a vertical humpty-dumpty rhythm.  Sounds like something a small child would prefer.

Of course, I'll be listening more and trying to get a better idea of Devine's aesthetic.
I listened to it twice. I don't think this recording is going to stay with me. Actually the last few days I've been listening to Staier's recording again. I think this is not to your taste maybe? Normally I wouldn't like the roominess of the Staier recording (I'm not such a fan of Roussett's Goldberg) but I have to say I just love what Staier has done. And I think in this case the production design works with the instrument and performance style. What I like about it is its fearlessness, the wonderful variety of tones in the choices of registration and the otherworldliness - as it were - of the performance. I wanted to love the Devine because the instrument has such a beautiful sound and the production is just as I like it (excepting the Staier). Perhaps Gilbert will be next in my ipod-rotation. The Staier recoding couldn't be a reference recording - I know. It's just too particular (in the instrument and production). But whereas this Devine recording doesn't do anything bold, I think the Staier is full of confidence and chance-taking (at times it just turns into a mess because of the room reverberation) and careful thought. A few months back I said I was burnt out on Goldbergs. Lately I have a second wind. I wish I could find a new recording with the same production quality of the Devine, but with more performance umpf! 
(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/25/d3/0016d325_medium.jpeg)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 05, 2011, 08:28:14 PM
I wanted to ask a question maybe for Bulldog and others: I've neglected Bach's concerto transcriptions. Actually I bought the double Watchorn cd a few years back but since then I've kind of soured on Watchorn and put it aside. How much pleasure do you get from these works and which recordings are recommended? I have followed discussions in the past. Some people like the Farr recording? I know this is kind of a rehash (but everything gets rehashed). Anyway, where do you place these works in terms of Bach's keyboard output? I know it's tricky because they're youthful works and they're transcriptions. Still, It's something in which I've yet to invest time. Are they below Bach's toccatas? I don't know if this is a good topic or not but I'm always looking to get (those whom I consider to be) experts explaining aspects of Bach. One more query: For me, Bach's keyboard partitas are nearly as good as the Goldbergs. I wonder why there haven't been a lot of recordings of these works in recent years. Or have there been? I love Suzuki's and Leonhardt's respective recordings. But I'm waiting for someone to take a stab at these now. Seems like there are many more artists doing even the French Suites than the partitas.     
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on October 05, 2011, 08:51:07 PM
Quote from: milk on October 05, 2011, 08:28:14 PM
I wanted to ask a question maybe for Bulldog and others: I've neglected Bach's concerto transcriptions. Actually I bought the double Watchorn cd a few years back but since then I've kind of soured on Watchorn and put it aside. How much pleasure do you get from these works and which recordings are recommended? I have followed discussions in the past. Some people like the Farr recording? I know this is kind of a rehash (but everything gets rehashed). Anyway, where do you place these works in terms of Bach's keyboard output? I know it's tricky because they're youthful works and they're transcriptions. Still, It's something in which I've yet to invest time. Are they below Bach's toccatas? I don't know if this is a good topic or not but I'm always looking to get (those whom I consider to be) experts explaining aspects of Bach. One more query: For me, Bach's keyboard partitas are nearly as good as the Goldbergs. I wonder why there haven't been a lot of recordings of these works in recent years. Or have there been? I love Suzuki's and Leonhardt's respective recordings. But I'm waiting for someone to take a stab at these now. Seems like there are many more artists doing even the French Suites than the partitas.   

The best I can figure, there have been 13 new recordings of the Partitas in the last six years, 7 for the French Suites and 53 for the Goldbergs.

Concerning the concerto transcriptions, I'm not a big fan and definitely prefer Bach's Toccatas.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on October 05, 2011, 10:49:38 PM
Quote from: milk on October 05, 2011, 08:28:14 PM
I wanted to ask a question maybe for Bulldog and others: I've neglected Bach's concerto transcriptions. .... How much pleasure do you get from these works and which recordings are recommended?

MUCH, much pleasure. In fact, they are the core of my favorite recording. (Not favorite Bach recording, but altogether favorite recording.) -- concertos italiens, with Alexandre Tharaud on Harmonia Mundi. Un-be-lievably gorgeous. Made 2005 (gosh, time flies) a great year.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/05/dip-your-ears-no-58.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/05/dip-your-ears-no-58.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 06, 2011, 12:27:05 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on October 05, 2011, 08:51:07 PM
The best I can figure, there have been 13 new recordings of the Partitas in the last six years, 7 for the French Suites and 53 for the Goldbergs.

Concerning the concerto transcriptions, I'm not a big fan and definitely prefer Bach's Toccatas.
Hmm...guess maybe I have some catching up to do. I think we may have been through this conversation recently. But...Any of these compete with Suzuki or Leonhardt? Maybe I should be satisfied with those since they're so darn good. 53 Goldbergs! Wow! Have any recent ones outdone Hantai, Ross or Gilbert in your opinion?
Any of these pedal recordings impress anyone?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61bF3CyxPgL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/CDUCoverArt/Music/98/8449098.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on October 06, 2011, 09:14:26 AM
Quote from: milk on October 06, 2011, 12:27:05 AM
Hmm...guess maybe I have some catching up to do. I think we may have been through this conversation recently. But...Any of these compete with Suzuki or Leonhardt? Maybe I should be satisfied with those since they're so darn good. 53 Goldbergs! Wow! Have any recent ones outdone Hantai, Ross or Gilbert in your opinion?

I don't think anyone can surpass Hantai or Ross, but I have very high opinions of Pieter Dirksen on Etcetera, Matthew Halls on Linn and Aapo Hakkinen on Alba.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 06, 2011, 03:34:03 PM
Thanks Bulldog!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 08, 2011, 06:02:00 PM
I wonder whatever happened to Richard Troeger and his Clavier-Übung project. Seems to have disappeared.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on October 10, 2011, 09:22:28 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 23, 2011, 02:52:56 PM

[Leonhardt's transcriptions of ] BWV 1002, 1004 & 1006 was recorded June 1975.
Harpsichord by William Dowd 1975 after Blanchet 1730.


It's a very beautiful instrument I think. I just listened to the 1st Partita and was, to say the least, extremely moved by the music making. It's a shame this record is out of print.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Josquin des Prez on October 10, 2011, 09:39:37 AM
Quote from: milk on October 05, 2011, 08:28:14 PM
Are they below Bach's toccatas?

A lot of them are definitely above. Bach's toccatas are early works and they aren't really as good as most of his later music. Some of them, like the bwv 1052 are miles ahead.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on October 10, 2011, 09:50:15 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 10, 2011, 09:39:37 AM
Some of them, like the bwv 1052 are miles ahead.

Milk was referring to transcriptions of the concerti by the Italians (Vivaldi, Marcello et al.), if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Josquin des Prez on October 10, 2011, 10:10:00 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on October 10, 2011, 09:50:15 AM
Milk was referring to transcriptions of the concerti by the Italians (Vivaldi, Marcello et. al.), if I'm not mistaken.

Ha, in that case, yeah, they are fairly minor works, most of which are probably best heard in the original format anyway (those of Vivaldi for instance). The exception is the bwv 1065, where Bach actually improves on the original.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 10, 2011, 11:16:18 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 10, 2011, 10:10:00 AM
Ha, in that case, yeah, they are fairly minor works, most of which are probably best heard in the original format anyway (those of Vivaldi for instance). The exception is the bwv 1065, where Bach actually improves on the original.

I won't discuss if the transcriptions are superior to their respective originals, but the idea of "reduction" of a whole instrumental ensemble to the keyboard it's attractive enough to justify these highly enjoyable pieces. Not just for their eventual pedagogic value for Bach himself, but because they are also the intellectual forerunners (I have convinced myself about this) of outstanding pieces like the Italian Concerto BWV 971 and the French Overture BWV 831, which are a sort of "transcription" in the same vein, but without "original".

P.S.: After reading these lines I became aware that probably they were written under the influence of Borges, who used to write reviews on imaginary books.

:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 11, 2011, 03:40:21 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 10, 2011, 11:16:18 AM
... they are also the intellectual forerunners (I have convinced myself about this) of outstanding pieces like the Italian Concerto BWV 971 and the French Overture BWV 831, which are a sort of "transcription" in the same vein, but without "original".

Although I have had this idea for a long time, I had never searched for "transcriptions" to the orchestral medium of the Italian Concerto BWV 971. Today I did it and this is a nice result:

http://www.youtube.com/v/Nf7-DER93Ww
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 11, 2011, 03:49:10 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on October 10, 2011, 09:50:15 AM
Milk was referring to transcriptions of the concerti by the Italians (Vivaldi, Marcello et al.), if I'm not mistaken.

That's right. Today I was listening to this:
(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/006/302/0000630247_350.jpg)
Most of his Bach performances here are not noteworthy - in my opinion. However, his version of "1079, Ricercar a 3" on an early fortepiano is quite nice. I'm always searching for new ways to enjoy Bach on period instruments (I think this fortepiano performance qualifies for this thread). I'm often checking this thread. Please continue posting any new recordings that are worthy of attention.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 11, 2011, 09:28:45 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 11, 2011, 03:40:21 AM
Although I have had this idea for a long time, I had never searched for "transcriptions" to the orchestral medium of the Italian Concerto BWV 971. Today I did it and this is a nice result:

http://www.youtube.com/v/Nf7-DER93Ww

Thanks for this. Most tasteful arrangement.  Must be this one.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Italienischer-Gusto-Konzerte-Rekonstruktionen-Hpothesen/hnum/3660840
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Josquin des Prez on October 11, 2011, 09:48:19 AM
Quote from: milk on October 11, 2011, 03:49:10 AM
That's right. Today I was listening to this:
(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/006/302/0000630247_350.jpg)
Most of his Bach performances here are not noteworthy - in my opinion. However, his version of "1079, Ricercar a 3" on an early fortepiano is quite nice. I'm always searching for new ways to enjoy Bach on period instruments (I think this fortepiano performance qualifies for this thread). I'm often checking this thread. Please continue posting any new recordings that are worthy of attention.

His bwv 922 is pretty good. Its not a major work but a lot of other performers (including Christiane Wuyts who's among my favorites for this off the beaten path stuff) never seem to get it right. The rest of the disc i can kinda live without.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 11, 2011, 10:03:03 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 11, 2011, 09:28:45 AM
Thanks for this. Most tasteful arrangement.  Must be this one.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Italienischer-Gusto-Konzerte-Rekonstruktionen-Hpothesen/hnum/3660840

You're welcome!  :)

It's this one:

[asin]B00004ZBLB[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 11, 2011, 02:17:48 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 11, 2011, 10:03:03 AM
You're welcome!  :)

It's this one:

[asin]B00004ZBLB[/asin]

Thanks for drawing attention to this recording, which I have never seen before. But now I have ordered it from Amazon MP.  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 11, 2011, 05:16:07 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 11, 2011, 02:17:48 PM
Thanks for drawing attention to this recording, which I have never seen before. But now I have ordered it from Amazon MP.  :)

Your own find sounds very attractive too:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/8011570338259.jpg)

Thanks.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 12, 2011, 02:55:25 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 11, 2011, 09:48:19 AM
His bwv 922 is pretty good. Its not a major work but a lot of other performers (including Christiane Wuyts who's among my favorites for this off the beaten path stuff) never seem to get it right. The rest of the disc i can kinda live without.
In my collection I also find 922 on Troeger (from his Art of the Fugue recording) and Rousset (from "Bach: Fantasy"). Do you think Ghelmi is the best of these three? Rousset isn't moving me. I like the Troeger even though I'm not regularly drawn to any of the Troeger recordings that I own. Still, I wonder what happened to Troeger.   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 15, 2011, 07:29:41 AM
I mentioned this a few posts back but I wanted to say that I am quite enjoying this recording:
(http://www.postedecoute.ca/catalogue/cover/xlarge/1005458.jpg)
I'm ashamed to admit that I still have problems enjoying the organ. So I'm happy to hear the compositions another way. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on October 15, 2011, 01:36:38 PM
Quote from: milk on October 15, 2011, 07:29:41 AM
I mentioned this a few posts back but I wanted to say that I am quite enjoying this recording:
(http://www.postedecoute.ca/catalogue/cover/xlarge/1005458.jpg)
I'm ashamed to admit that I still have problems enjoying the organ. So I'm happy to hear the compositions another way.

Yes, I also get much enjoyment from this disc - I love the pedal harpsichord.  It can do justice to a piece like the Fugue BWV 545 that the typical harpsichord just can't handle.

Sorry to hear that you have organ problems. :D  As much as I like Beausejour's performances, nothing beats the real thing (the king of instruments).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 15, 2011, 07:15:19 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on October 15, 2011, 01:36:38 PM
Yes, I also get much enjoyment from this disc - I love the pedal harpsichord.  It can do justice to a piece like the Fugue BWV 545 that the typical harpsichord just can't handle.

Sorry to hear that you have organ problems. :D  As much as I like Beausejour's performances, nothing beats the real thing (the king of instruments).

I'm working on my Organ-phobia. I'm sure some day I'll come around. I like it in small doses (for example on Levin's WTC). Perhaps I'll have to accustom myself little by little. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 16, 2011, 01:38:43 AM
Quote from: milk on October 06, 2011, 12:27:05 AM

Any of these pedal recordings impress anyone?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61bF3CyxPgL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Yes, Douglas Amrine- whom I never heard of before I got this CD - impressses me rather much with his stylishness, eloquence and brilliance. But like Don I prefer the real thing, the organ.
Do not know the Beausejour recording, put it on my wishlist.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 19, 2011, 08:06:42 PM
I see that Blandine Rannou has a box set coming out at the end of November.
It will include the Goldberg Variations, French and English Suites, as well as the Toccatas.
Does anyone know if this is a reissue or new?
I have some lovely recordings by her (F. Couperin, Forqueray). I wonder if I should be on the edge of my seat. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 20, 2011, 03:20:36 AM
Also, I see that Peter Watchorn has his new recording of the French Suites slated for release this month.
I went from being a fan of his to being kind of luke-warm about him.
The production on his pedal harpsichord recording of the WTC is nothing sort of brilliant.
However, his performance is a bit fussy sometimes even though he sure knows how to record that instrument.
I'm interested to catch some samples of the French when they're available.
I've bought a lot of French Suite recordings over the last few years but, for some reason, I always end up going back
to Moroney to wash them out of my system. The only other recording I like to leave in my consciousness is Brookshire's -
which I guess I like a lot considering that I find his public pronouncements on music to be pretty distasteful.
Anyway, I wonder if anyone's curiosity is peaked by the prospect of new releases from either Rannou or Watchorn? 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on October 20, 2011, 03:57:17 AM
Quote from: milk on October 19, 2011, 08:06:42 PM
I see that Blandine Rannou has a box set coming out at the end of November.
It will include the Goldberg Variations, French and English Suites, as well as the Toccatas.
Does anyone know if this is a reissue or new?
I have some lovely recordings by her (F. Couperin, Forqueray). I wonder if I should be on the edge of my seat.

Must be a re-issue... although I wasn't aware (or at least don't have) the Goldbergs and the Toccatas. But her French and English suites are, along those of Rousset's on Ambroise [not everyone's cup of tea, those] my favorite. They are tremendously well played, exciting and musical while being a little 'straighter' than Rousset. Great recorded and harpsichord sound, too.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Drasko on October 20, 2011, 04:24:52 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 20, 2011, 03:57:17 AM
Must be a re-issue... although I wasn't aware (or at least don't have) the Goldbergs and the Toccatas. But her French and English suites are, along those of Rousset's on Ambroise [not everyone's cup of tea, those] my favorite. They are tremendously well played, exciting and musical while being a little 'straighter' than Rousset. Great recorded and harpsichord sound, too.

It seems like two releases: 5CD box, reissue of French & English Suites and Toccatas, and new recording of Goldbergs.

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/ZZT111001.jpg)
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//ZZT111001.htm

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/ZZT111002.jpg)
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//ZZT111002.htm

Completely agreed on her French Suites, need the rest.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 20, 2011, 05:09:08 AM
Nice to see those French Suites, English Suites and Toccatas re-released because - just excepting the latter disc- they were near to impossible to get these days, specially the English Suites. As Jens points out these discs are probably not everyone's cup of tea, but I have noticed that people fond of Rousset, usually enjoy Rannou. Personally my favorite among her Bach discs are the Toccatas because her playing seems very well suited to the stylus phantasticus.   :)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on October 20, 2011, 05:20:21 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 20, 2011, 05:09:08 AM
Nice to see those French Suites, English Suites and Toccatas re-released because - just excepting the latter disc- they were near to impossible to get these days, specially the English Suites.
As Jens points out these discs are probably not everyone's cup of tea, but I have noticed that people fond of Rousset, usually enjoy Rannou. Personally my favorite among her Bach discs are the Toccatas
because her playing seems very well suited to the stylus phantasticus.   :)

Oh, I just remembered: I have her Toccatas. Perhaps the only recording of the Toccatas that I truly enjoy.

I also meant to imply that it's the Rousset that's not to everybody's taste (resonance, rubato et al.), and that the Rannou recordings are perhaps the bridge between stodgy exacting and exciting.
But I'm not surprised that there's a correlation between Rousset-likers and Rannou-likers.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 21, 2011, 07:14:02 AM
I'm interested in her Goldberg. I said a while back that I wasn't listening to the Goldberg Variations much but recently I've been on a binge.
Gosh, Leonhardt's recording (I think it's the newer one I have) is great.
I must be the only one here who loves Staier's odd recording of the Goldberg Variations.  I take it no one is much interested in
Watchorn here. Musica Omnia's sound design is so darn good. But that's meaningless if the performance doesn't excel.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on October 21, 2011, 09:57:59 AM
Quote from: milk on October 21, 2011, 07:14:02 AM
I take it no one is much interested in Watchorn here.

Wrong, my friend.  I think very highly of Watchorn's recordings, especially his WTC.

Just noticed that I had the Watchorn WTC on my personal essentials list (different thread).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 21, 2011, 03:50:10 PM
Quote from: milk on October 21, 2011, 07:14:02 AM
....I take it no one is much interested in Watchorn here. Musica Omnia's sound design is so darn good. But that's meaningless if the performance doesn't excel.

Boy, Milk - I have to completely agree w/ Don - I have plenty of Watchorn's discs (and others from his label), including both the WTC books - he is a superb performer and an incredible musical historian - his recordings and writings are certainly to be highly considered, but just my thoughts - hope that other fans will 'chime in' - :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on October 21, 2011, 03:54:20 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 21, 2011, 03:50:10 PM
Boy, Milk - I have to completely agree w/ Don - I have plenty of Watchorn's discs (and others from his label), including both the WTC books - he is a superb performer and an incredible musical historian - his recordings and writings are certainly to be highly considered, but just my thoughts - hope that other fans will 'chime in' - :)

How many Bach recordings has Watchorn made?  My computer counted 5 in my Bach collection ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 21, 2011, 04:50:04 PM
Quote from: milk on October 21, 2011, 07:14:02 AM
Gosh, Leonhardt's recording (I think it's the newer one I have) is great.
Total agreement here! I think his three recordings are superb: 1953  (Vanguard, Vanguard Carrere, Vanguard Classics, Musical Heritage/Artemis Classics); 1964 (Teldec, Teldec/Warner, Teldec/Warner Japan) & 1976 (DHM, HM, DHM/BMG, Parnass, ProArte, Quintessence). I have these CD incarnations on Vanguard Classics, Teldec and DHM:

(http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/19970000/19970040.jpg)(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/GV-Leonhardt-R2-3.jpg)(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/GV-Leonhardt-R3-2.jpg)

Quote from: milk on October 21, 2011, 07:14:02 AM
I must be the only one here who loves Staier's odd recording of the Goldberg Variations.
Not at all. I clearly recall Don wrote some favorable things about Staier, although I don't know if his ideas and opinions were documented as a review.

Quote from: milk on October 21, 2011, 07:14:02 AM
I take it no one is much interested in Watchorn here. Musica Omnia's sound design is so darn good. But that's meaningless if the performance doesn't excel.
Well, I am an unconditional Watchorn's fan, too. I have never found truly disappointing any of his recordings, although his English Suites are not so compelling like his other recordings. We will see if he has some problems with dance in general if he records the Partitas and the French Suites.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on October 21, 2011, 09:57:32 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 21, 2011, 04:50:04 PM
Not at all. I clearly recall Don wrote some favorable things about Staier, although I don't know if his ideas and opinions were documented as a review.

No documentation, just favorable words that drifted through the sky.  I'm not hard to please when it comes to the Goldbergs; a version really has to suck to get my disapproval. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 21, 2011, 11:16:52 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on October 21, 2011, 09:57:59 AM
Wrong, my friend.  I think very highly of Watchorn's recordings, especially his WTC.

Just noticed that I had the Watchorn WTC on my personal essentials list (different thread).

Well, I'll take this as a recommendation to give his WTC another shot. It's been a while since I've heard it. If I remember correctly, his tempos are on the slow side.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 21, 2011, 11:23:11 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 21, 2011, 04:50:04 PM
Total agreement here! I think his three recordings are superb: 1953  (Vanguard, Vanguard Carrere, Vanguard Classics, Musical Heritage/Artemis Classics); 1964 (Teldec, Teldec/Warner, Teldec/Warner Japan) & 1976 (DHM, HM, DHM/BMG, Parnass, ProArte, Quintessence). I have these CD incarnations on Vanguard Classics, Teldec and DHM:

(http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/19970000/19970040.jpg)(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/GV-Leonhardt-R2-3.jpg)(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/GV-Leonhardt-R3-2.jpg)
Not at all. I clearly recall Don wrote some favorable things about Staier, although I don't know if his ideas and opinions were documented as a review.
Well, I am an unconditional Watchorn's fan, too. I have never found truly disappointing any of his recordings, although his English Suites are not so compelling like his other recordings. We will see if he has some problems with dance in general if he records the Partitas and the French Suites.
Something special happens when he touches the keys. I also love his partitas and his English suites. His and Suzuki's are my favorites. I had his Goldbergs for a while and hadn't really paid attention to them before. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 21, 2011, 11:47:09 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on October 21, 2011, 09:57:32 PM
No documentation, just favorable words that drifted through the sky.  I'm not hard to please when it comes to the Goldbergs; a version really has to suck to get my disapproval.
I think there's something extreme about Staier's recording. When I first heard it I didn't think I could like it. I probably wouldn't give it to a friend as an introduction to the Goldbergs. It is reverberant as well as often very hot sounding. He uses a lot of different registrations and lute-stops (please correct me if I've gotten these technical matters wrong). It's a really interesting sounding instrument. I see he won a prize with it on the CPE Bach recording. There's just something other-worldly about his Goldberg Variations. I think it works because his sound design, instrument, and performance are all of a piece. But it is rather different in those aspects than most of the harpsichord recordings I appreciate. But I guess this is part of the fun of it. Since I downloaded the Staier, I haven't read the notes on it. I wonder if he felt he was taking a chance with the design of the recording. To me, it's really bold and, ultimately, very successful. Once in a while, there's a particular recording that haunts me and that I just need to immerse myself in (Suzuki's partitas, Levin's WTC, Sempe's L. Couperin). 
     
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 22, 2011, 06:40:18 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on October 21, 2011, 03:54:20 PM
How many Bach recordings has Watchorn made?  My computer counted 5 in my Bach collection ...

Hi Stuart - looks like he's above a half dozen w/ a new one this month being released - CHECK HERE (http://www.musicaomnia.org/Composer-jsbach.asp) - I have 3 or 4 (of course, most are multi-disc sets) - Dave :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 06:58:58 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 22, 2011, 06:40:18 AM
... w/ a new one this month being released - CHECK HERE (http://www.musicaomnia.org/Composer-jsbach.asp)

Great news, Dave! The French Suites by Watchorn are an importat musical event. A first step to complete Bach's output for harpsichord, as has been announced by Watchorn and his label.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on October 22, 2011, 10:09:04 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 22, 2011, 06:40:18 AM
Hi Stuart - looks like he's above a half dozen w/ a new one this month being released - CHECK HERE (http://www.musicaomnia.org/Composer-jsbach.asp) - I have 3 or 4 (of course, most are multi-disc sets) - Dave :)

Dave,  Thanks for the link.  I have all his Bach instrumental works and will acquire the upcoming French Suites for sure.  I doubt I will bother with the choral works since I already have an abundance of those works between recordings by Herreweghe, Gardiner, Veldhoven, Koopman, Leonhardt and Harnoncourt.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on October 22, 2011, 10:24:15 AM
Anyone knows about the status of this Leonhardt Goldberg Variations released by Pro-Arte back in the early 80's?  Has it been re-released by some other labels?  I have owned this CD since it was first released ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61UzjD7hUpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 22, 2011, 01:33:45 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on October 22, 2011, 10:24:15 AM
Anyone knows about the status of this Leonhardt Goldberg Variations released by Pro-Arte back in the early 80's?  Has it been re-released by some other labels?  I have owned this CD since it was first released ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61UzjD7hUpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It is probably one of the three recordings, he has made of this work. But which one I can´t tell.
Is the instrument he uses or the time of recording mentioned on the backside of the cover or in the booklet?

Edit: see Antoine´s post above. He seems to know which one it is (the third originally on DHM).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on October 22, 2011, 01:44:11 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 22, 2011, 01:33:45 PM
It is probably one of the three recordings, he has made of this work. But which one I can´t tell.
Is the instrument he uses or the time of recording mentioned on the backside of the cover or in the booklet?

Edit: see Antoine´s post above. He seems to know which one it is (the third originally on DHM).

Interesting.  For the first time ever, I look at the CD label closely and it says 1969, Deutsche Harmonia Mundi and 1985, Intersound.  Intersound was an American company based in Mnpls and the CD was made in Japan.

Perhaps Pro-Arte was an Intersound label?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 24, 2011, 04:28:15 AM
I just realized the one that I have is for "The Bach Guild" - I believe circa 1953. I was surprised. Somehow I thought I was listening to a newer recording. I'm sorry, so...how do the three compare? I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts on what he does differently in the later ones...Hmm...I wonder if the 13 Goldberg recordings in my collection are enough...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 01, 2011, 11:44:32 AM
Let me recommend this recording to the Bach freaks here.

It's a new transfer  of Landowska's live Bach recordings from 1935 and 1936. Most of the material will be familiar to you, except maybe the three preludes BWV BWV 936-938, which AFAIK have never been available previously.

The reason it's really of interest is the quality of the transfer. It reveals to me at least what a wonderful, gentle, refined , colouful instrument her Playel was. That's something which was not so apparent previously.

The CD comes with an extensive DVD archive of stills, with commentary by Skip Sempe  -- some evocative photos of WL, the ambiance of Saint-Leu-le-Foret is wonderfully captured, and her collection of instrumens and books well recorded. Paradiso, which publishes the CD, is Skip Sempe's company.

Landowska's stature in 20th century the recpetion history of baroque music is enormous. This important issue helps is to appreciate her contribution a little more clearly.


(http://ukstore.harmoniamundi.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x/76e7d749c2db2b9968d9d456af235676/i/m/image_14381.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 07, 2011, 03:21:45 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 01, 2011, 11:44:32 AM
Let me recommend this recording to the Bach freaks here.

It's a new transfer  of Landowska's live Bach recordings from 1935 and 1936. Most of the material will be familiar to you, except maybe the three preludes BWV BWV 936-938, which AFAIK have never been available previously.

The reason it's really of interest is the quality of the transfer. It reveals to me at least what a wonderful, gentle, refined , colouful instrument her Playel was. That's something which was not so apparent previously.

The CD comes with an extensive DVD archive of stills, with commentary by Skip Sempe  -- some evocative photos of WL, the ambiance of Saint-Leu-le-Foret is wonderfully captured, and her collection of instrumens and books well recorded. Paradiso, which publishes the CD, is Skip Sempe's company.

Landowska's stature in 20th century the recpetion history of baroque music is enormous. This important issue helps is to appreciate her contribution a little more clearly.


(http://ukstore.harmoniamundi.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x/76e7d749c2db2b9968d9d456af235676/i/m/image_14381.jpg)

I can't locate this. It's not even on the Paradizo website (unless I'm looking in the wrong place). Guess I'll just have to be patient.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Karl Henning on November 07, 2011, 03:25:09 AM
Here:

[asin]B004LYIDLE[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 07, 2011, 04:59:29 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 07, 2011, 03:25:09 AM
Here:

[asin]B004LYIDLE[/asin]
Thanks. I made a kind of dumb mental error. Somehow I convinced myself that this was her Goldberg Variations and that's what I was searching for. Sorry.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on November 19, 2011, 10:27:02 AM
Why on such an old instrument? ???

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0845221071152.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 19, 2011, 10:37:52 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 19, 2011, 10:27:02 AM
Why on such an old instrument? ???

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0845221071152.jpg)

She is probably using this instrument:

http://www.musee-unterlinden.com/ruckers-harpsichord.html

This is a famous instrument which often is used for Bach recordings. When you hear it, you will understand why, as it has got a rather dry but also very clear and transparent sound, ideal for the displaying of counterpoint.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 19, 2011, 10:38:35 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 19, 2011, 10:27:02 AM
Why on such an old instrument? ???

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0845221071152.jpg)

Great news, Navneeth!

If it's the famous harpsichord at the Musée d'Unterlinden in Colmar, the reason is clear: it's just gorgeous. And it has a solid Bachian tradition with several recordings of Bach works; for instance, Blandine Rannou Verlet recorded her WTC there.  :)

P.S.: Ooops, Premont was faster than me.  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on November 19, 2011, 10:43:26 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 19, 2011, 10:37:52 AM
She is probably using this instrument:

http://www.musee-unterlinden.com/ruckers-harpsichord.html

You are correct, as Ms. Schornsheim explains in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/v/yekDaeytKaY

Quote
This is a famous instrument which often is used for Bach recordings. When you hear it, you will understand why, as it has got a rather dry but also very clear and transparent sound, ideal for the displaying of counterpoint.

You are correct again, though I'm not surprised; I did notice those qualities you mention. I quite prefer that kind of sound from harpsichords in general. :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 19, 2011, 10:44:52 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 19, 2011, 10:38:35 AM
If it's the famous harpsichord at the Musée d'Unterlinden in Colmar, the reason is clear: it's just gorgeous. And it has a solid Bachian tradition with several recordings of Bach works; for instance, Blandine Rannou recorded her WTC there.  :)

Great news. Did Blandine Rannou record the WTC at last?

Quote from: Antoine Marchand
P.S.: Ooops, Premont was faster than me.  :)

Yes, for once.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 19, 2011, 10:48:27 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 19, 2011, 10:44:52 AM
Great news. Did Blandine Rannou record the WTC at last?

You know what I meant...  ;D... the other Blandine, my favorite between them, Blandine Verlet.

I was slow and wrong at the same time.  ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 19, 2011, 10:53:57 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 19, 2011, 10:48:27 AM
I was slow and wrong at the same time.  ;D

Maybe you were too fast after all.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 19, 2011, 11:00:30 AM
Schornsheim's recording sounds mandatory, isn't it? Is it available?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 19, 2011, 11:16:07 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 19, 2011, 11:00:30 AM
Schornsheim's recording sounds mandatory, isn't it? Is it available?

Mandatory inded.

JPC can deliver it from 16.1.2012.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on November 19, 2011, 12:50:09 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 19, 2011, 10:37:52 AM
She is probably using this instrument:

http://www.musee-unterlinden.com/ruckers-harpsichord.html

This is a famous instrument which often is used for Bach recordings. When you hear it, you will understand why, as it has got a rather dry but also very clear and transparent sound, ideal for the displaying of counterpoint.

If you're a Fanfare subscriber, you can read the interview with Schornsheim about the instrument used. (It's the "Nightingale" referred to in the title... so titled by Schornsheim because said harpsichord is very simple... black, no frills... just with simple golden racing stripes.

http://www.fanfarearchive.com/articles/atop/34_1/3410040.aa_Schornsheim_Nightingale.html (http://www.fanfarearchive.com/articles/atop/34_1/3410040.aa_Schornsheim_Nightingale.html)


QuoteHarpsichordist, fortepianist, continuo player Christine Schornsheim meets me in her practice room at the Gasteig, one of the last municipal socialist fantasies built in Europe (France apart)-a building that also hosts the philharmonic hall, a community college, the largest branch of the city library system, and rooms used by the Munich conservatory. She's ready to get the interview over with, after having to reschedule it about a dozen times, the last time due to a delay of her flight, the others largely because of scheduling difficulties on my part.

The atmosphere is Germanic-proper, cordial, but cool. Schornsheim, sitting amid the instruments she teaches on-an original 1840 ...


... I do like the music, and it does pop up in my recitals every once in a while, but I suppose it really isn't my heart's desire. It's fun enough, but I'd never get the idea to start a project like the one I did with Haydn, recording all the sonatas, or Bach, where I am beginning to record the Well-Tempered Clavier. I'd never say, 'Now I want to record all the Scarlatti sonatas.' If I did, I think I'd go bonkers. Maybe one CD of a few sonatas, someday. But there are so many other things ahead of Scarlatti that interest me, including lots of unknown repertoire."...

..."I don't think my Goldberg Variations were all that bad, either, but they were recorded a long time ago and of course Goldbergs exist a dime a dozen so that everything, including promotion, would have to be just right in order to make any splash at all. For the Haydn it worked ... surprisingly." Considerable enthusiasm finally breaks through when she talks about the instrument with which she is now recording the Well-Tempered Clavier. "On the harpsichord?" I ask. "Yes—all on one instrument, although there would have been a lot of possibilities to mix and match, too. Several preludes, I think, would fit the clavichord very nicely, some very nicely the organ. And some could even be played on a very early fortepiano. So in theory one could have used four instruments for that project, too. But it wouldn't do justice to the reality of listening habits. With Haydn I was able to arrange them in such a way as to have any one CD contain only sonatas performed on one particular instrument. That wouldn't have been possible here and I think it's problematic to have more than one instrument on one CD. The different levels of loudness and dynamics would have meant that you either have to manipulate on the technical side or else be thrown about constantly, neither of which I think is a good solution. And that's not even considering whether the pitch is exactly identical ... nah. Aside, the instrument I got to use is every harpsichordist's dream: an original, exceptionally well restored, rightly very popular Ruckers in Colmar. Black, almost nondescript looking, but with an unbelievably singing tone that has you addicted as soon as you touch it. I liken it to a nightingale. Not the prettiest bird around, but the prettiest sounding."...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: stingo on November 25, 2011, 02:08:31 PM
Hmm looks like another purchase is imminent as Schornsheim is a favorite of mine. Thanks for the heads up.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on November 25, 2011, 02:50:44 PM
Quote from: "Christine Schornsheim" on November 19, 2011, 12:50:09 PM
I don't think my Goldberg Variations were all that bad
+1 (after adjusting for the artist's modesty)

I'd place Schornsheim's recording of the GVs confidently in my top 15 — her tempos are mainly on the fast side but never feel rushed or like showing off, just a compelling sense of momentum. The ornamentation feels equally "right". And she plays a good sounding, well recorded harpsichord. I don't have details about it (the downside of purchasing digital downloads), but I assume it's a different instrument than the "Nightingale" she's using for the WTC.

Anyway, I'm with stingo — the new recording goes on my wish list...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 25, 2011, 04:59:28 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on November 25, 2011, 02:50:44 PM
+1 (after adjusting for the artist's modesty)

I'd place Schornsheim's recording of the GVs confidently in my top 15 — her tempos are mainly on the fast side but never feel rushed or like showing off, just a compelling sense of momentum. The ornamentation feels equally "right". And she plays a good sounding, well recorded harpsichord. I don't have details about it (the downside of purchasing digital downloads), but I assume it's a different instrument than the "Nightingale" she's using for the WTC.

Anyway, I'm with stingo — the new recording goes on my wish list...
When is this WTC going to be available? I'm up for it! But I don't see it on the new releases.
Anyone check out the new Rannou Goldberg? I was really confounded by it. I just don't get what she's doing. But maybe I'll need to come back to it
some day. It made me want another version so I downloaded the DHM Leonhardt Goldberg. Now that is awesome!
How about Watchorn's French? Anybody?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on November 25, 2011, 05:15:49 PM
Quote from: milk on November 25, 2011, 04:59:28 PM
When is this WTC going to be available? I'm up for it! But I don't see it on the new releases.
Anyone check out the new Rannou Goldberg? I was really confounded by it. I just don't get what she's doing. But maybe I'll need to come back to it some day.
It's not available yet, I guess we have to be patient.

I love the new Rannou Goldberg Variations. Sure, they're outrageous in the degree of ornamentation/improvisation she brings to them. But I think she has the vision and the technique to pull it off. The rhythmic feel is very "French", but that's true of other recordings I enjoy, including Van Asperen and Booth. At this point, I own enough "middle-of-the-road" recordings that I'm happy to find performers who can balance a respect for the text with a sense of adventure and spontaneity.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on November 26, 2011, 12:00:59 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on November 25, 2011, 05:15:49 PM
It's not available yet, I guess we have to be patient.

I love the new Rannou Goldberg Variations. Sure, they're outrageous in the degree of ornamentation/improvisation she brings to them. But I think she has the vision and the technique to pull it off. The rhythmic feel is very "French", but that's true of other recordings I enjoy, including Van Asperen and Booth. At this point, I own enough "middle-of-the-road" recordings that I'm happy to find performers who can balance a respect for the text with a sense of adventure and spontaneity.

In the Goldbergs, I particularly enjoy Ottavio Dantone's Italian take.
Caveat: issued on Decca Italy, would be very hard to find - but it is an awesome interpretation IMO.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JQSZ5A7WL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Q

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 26, 2011, 04:54:39 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on November 25, 2011, 05:15:49 PM
It's not available yet, I guess we have to be patient.

I love the new Rannou Goldberg Variations. Sure, they're outrageous in the degree of ornamentation/improvisation she brings to them. But I think she has the vision and the technique to pull it off. The rhythmic feel is very "French", but that's true of other recordings I enjoy, including Van Asperen and Booth. At this point, I own enough "middle-of-the-road" recordings that I'm happy to find performers who can balance a respect for the text with a sense of adventure and spontaneity.
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it. I see what you're saying. I kind of lost her from the beginning in the aria. I kept hoping I would find her groove but I never did. However, I'll give it another shot down the road. Perhaps I'll come to appreciate it the way you do after some time. 
Speaking of Van Asperen, I recently downloaded his French Suites. I was blown away by his recording of the French Suites. I just absolutely love it. And his harpsichord sounds divine. I can't say enough about that recording. I wonder if the new Watchorn will match it- I'm waiting for it in the mail.
A question for you and others here: I've seen rave reviews of Benjamin Alard's Partitas. I'm wondering what people think of this recording. My favorite recordings of the partitas are Suzuki's and Leonhardt's. Is Alard in the same Ballpark?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on November 27, 2011, 12:46:45 AM
I would do a search on the Suites and the Partitas if I were you, or browse through this thread.  :) Both have been discussed multiple times.

For the Suites, both the French and the English, I would point out Alan Curtis.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 27, 2011, 02:13:52 AM
Quote from: milk on November 26, 2011, 04:54:39 PM
My favorite recordings of the partitas are Suzuki's and Leonhardt's. Is Alard in the same Ballpark?

Precisely my two favorites along with Kenneth Gilbert (HMF) and Lars Ulrik Mortensen (Kontrapunkt). I find Allard´s interpretation very rewarding, but not quite up to this high level.

Concerning the English and French suites Alan Curtis´recordiing - as ~Que~ points out - is decidedly one of those you must have.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 27, 2011, 03:11:47 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on November 27, 2011, 12:46:45 AM
I would do a search on the Suites and the Partitas if I were you, or browse through this thread.  :) Both have been discussed multiple times.

For the Suites, both the French and the English, I would point out Alan Curtis.

Q
I've browsed and I've searched. As to the specific question of Alard, I didn't find more than a couple of brief passing references via the search engine.
Yes, I've seen Curtis mentioned multiple times.
I've just purchased Van Asperen's very rewarding recording of the French suites and Wachorn's (checking my mailbox), as well as Parmentier's English. But maybe I'll have to search out the Curtis (it's not so easy to find affordable releases of the complete sets). I do have quite a few other recordings of the French suites - not that I feel I ever have enough.

The Mortensen recommendation peaks my interest. I love his Buxtehude recordings! For some reason I still feel like I don't have enough (great) recordings of the partitas.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 27, 2011, 03:46:10 AM
Well I found a deal on the Curtis so I nabbed them. I suppose one never has enough!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on November 27, 2011, 03:54:42 AM
Quote from: milk on November 27, 2011, 03:46:10 AM
Well I found a deal on the Curtis so I nabbed them.

Curious mind wants to know: Where?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 27, 2011, 04:04:30 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 27, 2011, 03:54:42 AM
Curious mind wants to know: Where?

Might be here (note the Apex releases and marketplace offers):

http://www.amazon.fr/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_fr_FR=%C5M%C5Z%D5%D1&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=bach+curtis&x=13&y=26
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 04:07:02 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 27, 2011, 03:54:42 AM
Curious mind wants to know: Where?

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=curtis+bach+apex

:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 27, 2011, 04:11:07 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 27, 2011, 03:54:42 AM
Curious mind wants to know: Where?
Well I live in Japan and I found the three CDs (each has 2 French Suites and 2 English Suites) on amazon Japan. The total was 2000 yen ($25.73) including shipping.
Seems like a deal for both sets.   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 27, 2011, 04:12:10 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 04:07:02 AM
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=curtis+bach+apex

:)

As far as I can see, the Amazon fr. marketplace offers are a little cheaper.
This must of course be held up against the excellent service, Presto offers.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on November 27, 2011, 04:17:42 AM
Thanks, gentlemen. So far as I can see, Amazon UK (or zoverstocks in the MP) and Presto, of course, offer the best choices for me at the moment. :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 27, 2011, 04:21:06 AM
Gosh I just love the sound of Van Asperen's Vater Harpsichord. Sorry I'll stop posting now. Don't mean to annoy. I just love the wonderful variety that you get out of harpsichord recordings - in terms of the instruments. I wonder if some think that focusing on this aspect detracts from appreciating the artistry of the performance? Well I guess it doesn't matter since I don't think so. Sorry for my daft posts.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 27, 2011, 04:28:11 AM
Quote from: milk on November 27, 2011, 04:21:06 AM
I wonder if some think that focusing on this aspect detracts from appreciating the artistry of the performance?

Not at all. The sound (style) of the instrument and the way the harpsichordist uses this are important parts of the interpretation.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 04:29:34 AM
BTW, Pascal Dubreuil (Ramée) delivers an excellent rendition of the harpsichord partitas. One of the best that I have listened to in the last time: "sunny", with perfect tempi and outstanding clarity. I recall that Premont defined this interpretation as "easygoing"; that said, I think some people could find this interpretation a bit lack of gravitas.

The sound quality is just perfect.

Here some examples: 

http://www.youtube.com/v/cnPKi7cWAFc

http://www.youtube.com/v/nWtivySqOw4
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on November 27, 2011, 05:22:27 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on November 26, 2011, 12:00:59 AM
In the Goldbergs, I particularly enjoy Ottavio Dantone's Italian take.
Caveat: issued on Decca Italy, would be very hard to find - but it is an awesome interpretation IMO.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JQSZ5A7WL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Q

We learn new things everyday.  I never knew there is such thing as Decca Italy.  No doubt there is no English translation in the booklet ...
:o
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on November 27, 2011, 05:41:29 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on November 27, 2011, 05:22:27 AM
We learn new things everyday.  I never knew there is such thing as Decca Italy.  No doubt there is no English translation in the booklet ...
:o

Small correction: © 2005 Universal Music Italia s.r.l.
But fortunately the booklet is, besides in Italian, also in English. :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on November 27, 2011, 06:03:48 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on November 27, 2011, 05:41:29 AM
Small correction: © 2005 Universal Music Italia s.r.l.
But fortunately the booklet is, besides in Italian, also in English. :)

Q

Unfortunately, with a single-country only release, shipping cost to the US may well outstrip the price of the CD itself.  I bought the Andras Schiff Complete Bach Keyboard Works, the German edition from jpc by bulking up the total order to make the order worthwhile since the shipping was 13 Euro.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on November 27, 2011, 06:36:47 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on November 27, 2011, 06:03:48 AM
Unfortunately, with a single-country only release, shipping cost to the US may well outstrip the price of the CD itself.  I bought the Andras Schiff Complete Bach Keyboard Works, the German edition from jpc by bulking up the total order to make the order worthwhile since the shipping was 13 Euro.

Incidentally, Stuart, those German Eloquence releases are now also showing up Amazon UK and US as well.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on November 27, 2011, 07:06:23 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 27, 2011, 06:36:47 AM
Incidentally, Stuart, those German Eloquence releases are now also showing up Amazon UK and US as well.

I have noticed the Australian Eloquence releases on Amazon US for sometimes and the prices are always a few dollars higher than what European etailers charge.  Unfortunately, after you add in the much higher shipping & handling from Europe, it is a wash ... 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on November 27, 2011, 07:42:30 AM
J.S.Bach / Alan Curtis -- English & French Suites
(inexpensive and available globally)

English & French Suites 1 & 2
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005QHUM.L.jpg)

Amazon US (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHUM/goodmusicguide-20)

Amazon UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHUM/goodmusicguideUK-21)

Amazon Germany (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHUM/goodmusicguide-21)

Amazon France (http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHUM/goodmusicguidefr-21)


English & French Suites 3 & 4
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005QHUN.L.jpg)

Amazon US (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHUN/goodmusicguide-20)

Amazon UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHUN/goodmusicguideUK-21)

Amazon Germany (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHUN/goodmusicguide-21)

Amazon France (http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHUN/goodmusicguidefr-21)


English & French Suites 5 & 6
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005QHTI.L.jpg)

Amazon US (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHTI/goodmusicguide-20)

Amazon UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHTI/goodmusicguideUK-21)

Amazon Germany (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHTI/goodmusicguide-21)

Amazon France (http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHTI/goodmusicguidefr-21)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on November 27, 2011, 11:51:57 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on November 26, 2011, 12:00:59 AM
In the Goldbergs, I particularly enjoy Ottavio Dantone's Italian take.
Caveat: issued on Decca Italy, would be very hard to find - but it is an awesome interpretation IMO.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JQSZ5A7WL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Q

I would love to hear the Dantone GVs. I admire his WTC recordings and have spotted recommendations for the GVs before (I think Don/Bulldog speaks highly of them). But I'm not prepared to jump through the necessary hoops to track them down from here in the USA right now. Besides, I was just looking at all my GV recordings side-by-side in my iTunes library and realizing I can't conjure up a clear sense of what some of them sound like in my mind, which tells me I should get to know the ones I own better before acquiring more.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on November 27, 2011, 12:23:37 PM
Quote from: milk on November 26, 2011, 04:54:39 PM
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it. I see what you're saying. I kind of lost her from the beginning in the aria. I kept hoping I would find her groove but I never did. However, I'll give it another shot down the road. Perhaps I'll come to appreciate it the way you do after some time. 
Speaking of Van Asperen, I recently downloaded his French Suites. I was blown away by his recording of the French Suites. I just absolutely love it. And his harpsichord sounds divine. I can't say enough about that recording. I wonder if the new Watchorn will match it- I'm waiting for it in the mail.
A question for you and others here: I've seen rave reviews of Benjamin Alard's Partitas. I'm wondering what people think of this recording. My favorite recordings of the partitas are Suzuki's and Leonhardt's. Is Alard in the same Ballpark?
I think it's nice, even, to have a few recordings in our libraries that puzzle us — so we can check in with them every once in a while and see if they make more sense. (However, recordings that repel us, are another matter.)

I'm with you on Van Asperen's French Suites — beautiful playing on a beautiful instrument. I'm late to reply, and several of my favorite recordings of these pieces have been mentioned in the interim. Two that haven't (although they are discussed earlier in this thread) are Wjuniski and Moroney. The former I just spotted among premont's recent purchases, so I'm interested to learn his take on it. The latter is a tad severe but still a rewarding set.

I don't know the Alard Partitas. I'll have to check them out.

Finally, I'm not a huge fan of Watchorn in the French and English Suites. I'm sure he understands the dance elements of this music intellectually, but I find his performances ponderous and lacking in momentum. His WTC and Inventions/Sinfonias work better for me; they have the same "heavy" quality, but for the most part it serves this repertoire better. Anyway, I know his recordings of the French Suites have admirers, and I hope you find them enjoyable.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on November 27, 2011, 12:26:14 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 27, 2011, 04:28:11 AM
Not at all. The sound (style) of the instrument and the way the harpsichordist uses this are important parts of the interpretation.

The tuning, too, can be an important part of the equation.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 27, 2011, 12:30:39 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on November 27, 2011, 12:26:14 PM
The tuning, too, can be an important part of the equation.

Certainly. In my wiev the tuning is part of the sound (style) of the instrument.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on November 27, 2011, 01:37:53 PM
Ah yes, I had confused Antoine's news with yours.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 28, 2011, 12:52:31 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 04:29:34 AM
BTW, Pascal Dubreuil (Ramée) delivers an excellent rendition of the harpsichord partitas. One of the best that I have listened to in the last time: "sunny", with perfect tempi and outstanding clarity. I recall that Premont defined this interpretation as "easygoing"; that said, I think some people could find this interpretation a bit lack of gravitas.

The sound quality is just perfect.

Thanks for these clips. I'm going to look into Dubreuil.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on November 28, 2011, 09:48:08 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on November 27, 2011, 11:51:57 AM
I would love to hear the Dantone GVs. I admire his WTC recordings and have spotted recommendations for the GVs before (I think Don/Bulldog speaks highly of them). But I'm not prepared to jump through the necessary hoops to track them down from here in the USA right now.

I was lucky to find the Dantone when on vacation in Rome 3 years ago.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on November 28, 2011, 09:51:58 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on November 27, 2011, 03:02:32 PM
I have owned all of Hewitt's Bach keyboard works for a number of years now - individual sets, not the big box.  IMO, she is one of the best interpreters of Bach keyboard works of her generation. 

I'd say Hewitt's Bach recordings are pretty good, but far from being among the best on piano. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 28, 2011, 10:44:33 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on November 28, 2011, 09:48:08 AM
I was lucky to find the Dantone when on vacation in Rome 3 years ago.

I got it from Amazon a couple of years ago, I think it was Amazon.fr
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on November 28, 2011, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 28, 2011, 10:44:33 AM
I got it from Amazon a couple of years ago, I think it was Amazon.fr

It is a shame that the Dantone hasn't been available in the U.S.  But we do get a huge dose of Hewitt, Ashkenazy and Barenboim. ::)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 28, 2011, 10:53:28 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on November 28, 2011, 10:48:25 AM
It is a shame that the Dantone hasn't been available in the U.S.  But we do get a huge dose of Hewitt, Ashkenazy and Barenboim. ::)

These are also readily available on my side of the Pond, they seem to be ubiquitous.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Karl Henning on November 28, 2011, 11:34:56 AM
I've come to enjoy my Bach a little jangly.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 28, 2011, 11:30:16 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on November 28, 2011, 09:51:58 AM
I'd say Hewitt's Bach recordings are pretty good, but far from being among the best on piano.
I don't often listen to Bach on the piano anymore but I do feel lucky enough to have caught Hewitt playing the Goldberg variations
in Sienna while on vacation. She happened to be performing there so I waited online for standing-room seats. I don't remember much about it
except that her variation 25 was searching and moving.
Here in Japan, I'll get to see a young harpsichordist performing Bach selections next month. It'll be my first solo harpsichord concert!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on November 28, 2011, 11:48:24 PM
Quote from: milk on November 28, 2011, 11:30:16 PM
I don't often listen to Bach on the piano anymore but I do feel lucky enough to have caught Hewitt playing the Goldberg variations
in Sienna while on vacation. She happened to be performing there so I waited online for standing-room seats. I don't remember much about it
except that her variation 25 was searching and moving.

That reminds me of a recording of a recital (Hewitt/GV) I downloaded a couple of years ago perhaps. It was early days (for me) and her use of repeats from the get go sort of bored me, and I never gave it another listen. (The duration was over an hour long. Even taking into account the applause and maybe some commentary, that's quite a long playtime for someone like Hewitt.)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2011, 12:16:04 PM
I love Leonhardt's 1953 AoF because of the austere simplicity of the style, and the sense of discovery and awe of the music.

AFAIK he made just one other Bach  recording at roughly the same time -- the 1953 Goldberg Variations.

Does it have the same style -- limited ornomentation, rubato etc?  Does it have the same feeling of discovery and wonder? 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WAqzVjb2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on November 29, 2011, 12:55:21 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 29, 2011, 12:16:04 PM
I love Leonhardt's 1953 AoF because of the austere simplicity of the style, and the sense of discovery and awe of the music.

AFAIK he made just one other Bach  recording at roughly the same time -- the 1953 Goldberg Variations.

Does it have the same style -- limited ornomentation, rubato etc?  Does it have the same feeling of discovery and wonder? 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WAqzVjb2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Yes to all questions.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on December 01, 2011, 04:11:26 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on November 25, 2011, 05:15:49 PM
It's not available yet, I guess we have to be patient.

I love the new Rannou Goldberg Variations. Sure, they're outrageous in the degree of ornamentation/improvisation she brings to them. But I think she has the vision and the technique to pull it off. The rhythmic feel is very "French", but that's true of other recordings I enjoy, including Van Asperen and Booth. At this point, I own enough "middle-of-the-road" recordings that I'm happy to find performers who can balance a respect for the text with a sense of adventure and spontaneity.

Well, tonight I listened to the Rannou again and I have to admit I had a pretty wonderful time. I think I really had to do some mental adjustment for this recording.
I wonder, do you think this is the most radical rendering of the Goldbergs on harpsichord, or are there others that go this far with ornamentation? I remember reading somewhere that Joseph Payne has a recording that's pretty radical...
Well, I'm glad I didn't give up on it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Kontrapunctus on December 06, 2011, 09:39:11 AM
I just bought this for $34 on Amazon...down from $84! Not bad for 2 discs.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZfiIuxBBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Karl Henning on December 06, 2011, 10:12:39 AM
$84 for two discs was an atrocity, though : )
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Kontrapunctus on December 14, 2011, 12:12:52 PM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on December 06, 2011, 09:39:11 AM
I just bought this for $34 on Amazon...down from $84! Not bad for 2 discs.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZfiIuxBBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Now that he has retired, I'm even happier to have acquired this recording. Well, once it shows up...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on December 16, 2011, 05:18:00 AM
I believe there is a recording of the French Suites by Leonhardt. But it's not much discussed - not like his other Bach recordings. I'm curious why not? Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 16, 2011, 09:02:03 AM
Quote from: milk on December 16, 2011, 05:18:00 AM
I believe there is a recording of the French Suites by Leonhardt. But it's not much discussed - not like his other Bach recordings. I'm curious why not? Any thoughts?

The reason why I do not mention it much is, that I find it less inspired than we are used to, when it is about Leonhardt. It is a pity, that f.i. Alpha didn´t offer him the chance to rerecord these suites.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on December 17, 2011, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on November 29, 2011, 12:55:21 PM
Yes to all questions.

A very accurate response. Great performance.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on December 31, 2011, 07:00:40 PM
Crosspost from the general WAYLT thread

This evening, while my neighbors start to light off all the firecrackers they could find, a first and complete run through of this set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Bnk0NMFTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Bear in mind that I actually don't have that many version of the WTC: Gould, Ashkenazy and Hewitt on piano,  Egarr and now Belder on harpsichord, and Gilbert on harpsichord only for Book I.
(There's also Robert Levin on smorgasbord in the Hanssler Complete box, but since I haven't listened to that one yet, it's not really fair to list it.)

Sonics: clear, concise, crisp, just the way I like it.
Performance:  I'll have to compare it to what I have, but while I'm mildly impressed, I'm not overwhelmed by it.  Articulation of voices, etc.  is very good, but the tempi seem to be in a fairly limited range--mostly andante or allegro moderato,  with occasional burst of speed to allegro vivace and sometimes slowing down all the way to adagio (to put it in modern terms).  No feats of prestissimo prestidigitation for this guy--more a steady as she goes.

Possibly this impression of limited range in tempi is the result of listening to it all in one go.
And as I say,  I'll have to at least compare it to Egarr and Gilbert; but for now my favorite WTC remains Hewitt on piano.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on January 01, 2012, 03:04:30 AM
Recommendations for the Goldberg Variations on harpsichord?

Forgive my laziness, but I fear that reading through the entire thread will have significant economic ramifications.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on January 01, 2012, 04:17:26 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 01, 2012, 03:04:30 AM
Recommendations for the Goldberg Variations on harpsichord?

Forgive my laziness, but I fear that reading through the entire thread will have significant economic ramifications.

There is a separate thread as well: Bach Goldberg variations (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4766.0.html)

My own recommendations (in random order): Céline Frisch (Alpha), Christophe Rousset (Decca/ L'Oiseau Lyre), Ottavio Dantone (Decca).

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on January 01, 2012, 06:12:09 AM
I'd add Andreas Staier, and a serious suggestion to avoid Richard Egarr.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 01, 2012, 06:26:51 AM
Hantai is great. Leonhardt is great (second is best for me). I've come around on the new Rannou recording as well.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: springrite on January 01, 2012, 06:30:27 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 01, 2012, 06:12:09 AM
I'd add Andreas Staier, and a serious suggestion to avoid Richard Egarr.

Don't like bells? I actually quite enjoyed Egarr.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on January 01, 2012, 06:41:23 AM
Quote from: springrite on January 01, 2012, 06:30:27 AM
Don't like bells? I actually quite enjoyed Egarr.

It's the tempos he uses.  As I phrase it sometimes,  it seems as if Egarr wanted to prove that the old legend (that the Variations were written to help put an insomniac to sleep) had some basis in fact.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 01, 2012, 08:27:18 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 01, 2012, 03:04:30 AM
Recommendations for the Goldberg Variations on harpsichord?


Hi Geo Dude -boy, there are so many Goldberg Variations recordings on single keyboard, other solo instruments, and in transcriptions (and I have examples of all) - you will likely receive MANY recommendations; my current 'harpsichord versions' are w/ Christophe Rousset, Pierre Hantai, and Fabio Bonizzoni - there are others that I've either 'culled out' or am still considering.

Another early keyboard consideration, i.e. the clavichord w/ Jaroslav Tuma might peak your interest?  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachGoldbergTuma/949289381_nFEdn-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on January 01, 2012, 09:41:43 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 01, 2012, 06:41:23 AM
It's the tempos he uses.  As I phrase it sometimes,  it seems as if Egarr wanted to prove that the old legend (that the Variations were written to help put an insomniac to sleep) had some basis in fact.
Egarr's Goldbergs have always provoked mixed reactions, so I'm not entirely surprised that you to see them this way. But I find them meditative and thoroughly absorbing, nothing sleep-inducing about them for me. They're not my top choice (that might be Hantai II, or Mortensen, or Verlet), but they've been a source of real enjoyment for me.

There are two recordings on the horizon that I am anticipating: Schornsheim's (which I've already pre-ordered) and one by Joel Pontet (which seems promising based on the previews... (http://amzn.com/B006KIX9PO)).

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YyVSimOkL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on January 01, 2012, 02:10:10 PM
Thanks for all the replies.  The Hantai strikes me as a good start based on the samples.  The fact that it comes packaged with a dis of concertos for under $15 doesn't hurt matters.

By the way, PaulSC, are you thinking Schornsheim's upcoming Well-Tempered Clavier set?  She seems to have recorded the Goldbergs a while back and I don't see any indication of a new set - not at Amazon US at least.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on January 01, 2012, 02:13:36 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 01, 2012, 02:10:10 PM
Thanks for all the replies.  The Hantai strikes me as a good start based on the samples.  The fact that it comes packaged with a dis of concertos for under $15 doesn't hurt matters.

By the way, PaulSC, are you thinking Schornsheim's upcoming Well-Tempered Clavier set?  She seems to have recorded the Goldbergs a while back and I don't see any indication of a new set - not at Amazon US at least.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iSeEuHxfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It is now available on Amazon US for pre-order ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on January 01, 2012, 02:28:56 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 01, 2012, 02:13:36 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iSeEuHxfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It is now available on Amazon US for pre-order ...

Exactly my point.  Unless I misunderstood PaulSC he seemed to be saying that Schornsheim has a new set of Goldberg Variations coming out.  I was guessing that he had mistaken that for the WTC.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on January 01, 2012, 02:46:22 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 01, 2012, 02:10:10 PM
Thanks for all the replies.  The Hantai strikes me as a good start based on the samples.  The fact that it comes packaged with a dis of concertos for under $15 doesn't hurt matters.

By the way, PaulSC, are you thinking Schornsheim's upcoming Well-Tempered Clavier set?  She seems to have recorded the Goldbergs a while back and I don't see any indication of a new set - not at Amazon US at least.
Geo Dude, the Hantai paired with the concerto recordings is his FIRST recording of the Goldberg Variations, on the naïve label. My impression, based on hearing clips and reading reviews, is that it's very good. However, my recommendation was for his SECOND recording, on the Mirare label. Perhaps someone who knows them both well can illuminate the differences.

And yes, you are absolutely right, I was confusing Schornsheim's older GV's with her forthcoming WTC set.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on January 01, 2012, 04:32:36 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on January 01, 2012, 02:46:22 PM
Geo Dude, the Hantai paired with the concerto recordings is his FIRST recording of the Goldberg Variations, on the naïve label. My impression, based on hearing clips and reading reviews, is that it's very good. However, my recommendation was for his SECOND recording, on the Mirare label. Perhaps someone who knows them both well can illuminate the differences.

And yes, you are absolutely right, I was confusing Schornsheim's older GV's with her forthcoming WTC set.

I may pick up the second Hantai recording at some point, but right now it seems to be out of print and cost is an issue right now.  If you find it for a reasonable price, let me know and I may look into it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 01, 2012, 05:48:53 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 01, 2012, 08:27:18 AM
Hi Geo Dude -boy, there are so many Goldberg Variations recordings on single keyboard, other solo instruments, and in transcriptions (and I have examples of all) - you will likely receive MANY recommendations; my current 'harpsichord versions' are w/ Christophe Rousset, Pierre Hantai, and Fabio Bonizzoni - there are others that I've either 'culled out' or am still considering.

Another early keyboard consideration, i.e. the clavichord w/ Jaroslav Tuma might peak your interest?  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachGoldbergTuma/949289381_nFEdn-O.jpg)

BTW - I forgot initially, but this is a 2-disc set; first one played on two different clavichords; and second on harpsichord - so a nice combination if available at a decent price? :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on January 07, 2012, 07:46:54 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 01, 2012, 03:04:30 AMForgive my laziness, but I fear that reading through the entire thread will have significant economic ramifications.

Having changed my mind and read through the thread I can say with absolute certainty that my fear was correct. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg590105.html#msg590105)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on January 07, 2012, 08:31:40 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 07, 2012, 07:46:54 AM
Having changed my mind and read through the thread I can say with absolute certainty that my fear was correct. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg590105.html#msg590105)

Your financial loss is the gain for your friendly etailers like Amazon ...   ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on January 07, 2012, 09:56:22 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 07, 2012, 08:31:40 AM
Your financial loss is the gain for your friendly etailers like Amazon ...   ;D

Or rather, the marketplace e-tailers at Amazon...in any case, I certainly have no regrets.  What's money next to the opportunity to fall in love with an instrument like the harpsichord?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on January 07, 2012, 10:46:24 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 07, 2012, 09:56:22 AM
Or rather, the marketplace e-tailers at Amazon...in any case, I certainly have no regrets.  What's money next to the opportunity to fall in love with an instrument like the harpsichord?

I have always enjoyed harpsichord music and have hundreds of recordings in harpsichord music ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on January 07, 2012, 11:54:14 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 07, 2012, 10:46:24 AM
I have always enjoyed harpsichord music and have hundreds of recordings in harpsichord music ...

I've always enjoyed harpsichord music to an extent, but I have never taken the chance to really dig in and explore harpsichord repertoire prior to this.  I'm going from a dipping a toe in to diving in.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on January 07, 2012, 12:08:28 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 07, 2012, 11:54:14 AM
I've always enjoyed harpsichord music to an extent, but I have never taken the chance to really dig in and explore harpsichord repertoire prior to this.  I'm going from a dipping a toe in to diving in.

Me too, especially in Bach  ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on January 08, 2012, 04:16:09 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 07, 2012, 11:54:14 AM
I've always enjoyed harpsichord music to an extent, but I have never taken the chance to really dig in and explore harpsichord repertoire prior to this.  I'm going from a dipping a toe in to diving in.

While I have many piano versions of baroque keyboard works, I never overlook the harpsichord version, the original instrument those works were composed for.  Again, the purists may argue that Goldberg Variations should never be performed on piano.  I don't have any problems with that ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on January 11, 2012, 08:38:11 PM
Any tips on a harpsichord recording of the partitas?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 11, 2012, 09:04:13 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 11, 2012, 08:38:11 PM
Any tips on a harpsichord recording of the partitas?
Masaaki Suzuki is great!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2012, 01:11:52 AM


Listen What the Cat Dragged In: The Nightingale & The Well Tempered Clavier

Christine Schornsheim's Latest Recording
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/01/listen-what-cat-dragged-in-nightingale.html)

(With excerpt)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0064DLG32.01.L.jpg)
J.S.Bach,
WTC Books 1 & 2,
Christine Schornsheim
Capriccio 7115 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0064DLG32/nectarandambr-20)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on January 12, 2012, 03:08:26 AM
Quote from: milk on January 11, 2012, 09:04:13 PM
Masaaki Suzuki is great!

Ah yes, I forgot about Suzuki...and that I've already ordered it. ???
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on January 12, 2012, 08:05:20 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 12, 2012, 03:08:26 AM
Ah yes, I forgot about Suzuki...and that I've already ordered it. ???

I got it recently too, and it is a wonderful disk! Incredible!



8)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on January 14, 2012, 12:07:14 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512%2BvaWvp%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I am very taken with Richard Egarr's WTC Book 1. I knew from the sound samples I was going to love this. At first, the sound of the harpsichord attracted me to this account, but hearing it in full I am also entranced by the performance, especially the phrasing and tempos. His style fits my sensibilties. Also, I like how the cover artwork perfectly (and subjectively) matches the sound and feeling of this account  ;D

I feel the same way about Egarr's Goldberg Variations.

8)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2012, 12:24:36 PM
Quote from: Leo K on January 14, 2012, 12:07:14 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512%2BvaWvp%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I am very taken with Richard Egarr's WTC Book 1. I knew from the sound samples I was going to love this. At first, the sound of the harpsichord attracted me to this account, but hearing it in full I am also entranced by the performance, especially the phrasing and tempos. His style fits my sensibilties. Also, I like how the cover artwork perfectly (and subjectively) matches the sound and feeling of this account  ;D

I feel the same way about Egarr's Goldberg Variations.

8)

Maybe I shouldn't even be allowed to express my personal opinion in a broad way, because it has been so long since I last listened to this one. But I do remember why I decided not to listen to it all that often: to me, in general, his phrasing and tempi choices seemed a bit unnatural. If I, for instance, compare that listening experience with the one I had whilst listening to Bob van Asperen the first time: the difference would be too great to describe. I felt completetly connected with Van Asperen's approach from the very beginning. And I also preferred the more 'crackling' sound of Van Asperen's harpsichord.

But our different opinions are another proof that good music is able to allow and survive many different performances. :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on January 14, 2012, 04:28:09 PM
Quote from: Leo K on January 12, 2012, 08:05:20 AM
I got it recently too, and it is a wonderful disk! Incredible!

I listened to part of it tonight.  That certainly is a sweet-toned harpsichord.  The music will need some time to digest, but it seems promising.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on January 14, 2012, 08:44:08 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 14, 2012, 12:24:36 PM
Maybe I shouldn't even be allowed to express my personal opinion in a broad way, because it has been so long since I last listened to this one. But I do remember why I decided not to listen to it all that often: to me, in general, his phrasing and tempi choices seemed a bit unnatural. If I, for instance, compare that listening experience with the one I had whilst listening to Bob van Asperen the first time: the difference would be too great to describe. I felt completetly connected with Van Asperen's approach from the very beginning. And I also preferred the more 'crackling' sound of Van Asperen's harpsichord.

But our different opinions are another proof that good music is able to allow and survive many different performances. :)

I agree, it is wonderful that different approaches enhance this great music, and we can have it all! I am very happy to hear your opinion, even if it is not my own. Thanks for the comments on Van Asperen's approach, a recording I've not yet heard.  8)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: JaapT on January 15, 2012, 02:14:01 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519dvbZeL3L._SS500_.jpg)
Does anyone want to share some thoughts on this Leonhardt Bach-recital: http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/bach-j.s.-harpsichord-works/id379531353 ?

It is an old Philips release (1985) that is out of print, but still available in digital format. It is one of my favorite harpsichord recordings, with Leonhardt in top form.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on January 15, 2012, 03:31:27 AM
Quote from: JaapT on January 15, 2012, 02:14:01 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519dvbZeL3L._SS500_.jpg)
Does anyone want to share some thoughts on this Leonhardt Bach-recital: http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/bach-j.s.-harpsichord-works/id379531353 ?

It is an old Philips release (1985) that is out of print, but still available in digital format. It is one of my favorite harpsichord recordings, with Leonhardt in top form.

No opinions from yours truly yet. But from now it's on my wishlist. Thanks for mentioning.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bumtz on January 15, 2012, 05:28:43 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 14, 2012, 12:24:36 PM
Maybe I shouldn't even be allowed to express my personal opinion in a broad way, because it has been so long since I last listened to this one. But I do remember why I decided not to listen to it all that often: to me, in general, his phrasing and tempi choices seemed a bit unnatural. If I, for instance, compare that listening experience with the one I had whilst listening to Bob van Asperen the first time: the difference would be too great to describe. I felt completetly connected with Van Asperen's approach from the very beginning. And I also preferred the more 'crackling' sound of Van Asperen's harpsichord.

But our different opinions are another proof that good music is able to allow and survive many different performances. :)

I have Egarr's WTC, and I simply hated it. Gave it three listens, my initial impression not improving. Sounded all saccharine and superficial to me.   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 15, 2012, 11:15:53 PM
I have Egarr's WTC, and I simply hated it. Gave it three listens, my initial impression not improving. Sounded all saccharine and superficial to me.   
[/quote]
What about Christine Schornsheim's new WTC? I've been having a hard time getting into it. But I'm known to change my mind about recordings after further listening. So far I'm finding it choppy and rushed. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 05:42:44 AM
Quote from: milk on January 15, 2012, 11:15:53 PM
I have Egarr's WTC, and I simply hated it. Gave it three listens, my initial impression not improving. Sounded all saccharine and superficial to me.   

What about Christine Schornsheim's new WTC? I've been having a hard time getting into it. But I'm known to change my mind about recordings after further listening. So far I'm finding it choppy and rushed.

I'm not crazy about much of CS's WTC yet, either -- perhaps I'll warm to it yet.
I love Egarr's WTC II, though... esp. the soft flexibility of his tone.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 16, 2012, 11:25:54 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 05:42:44 AM
I'm not crazy about much of CS's WTC yet, either -- perhaps I'll warm to it yet.

Is it controversial in any way? I have ordered it, but a fortnight may easily pass untill I receive it.

Quote from: jlaurson
I love Egarr's WTC II, though... esp. the soft flexibility of his tone.

On the contrary I find his Bach heavily underarticulated, bordering the sleep-provoking.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 11:48:37 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 16, 2012, 11:25:54 AM
Is it controversial in any way? I have ordered it, but a fortnight may easily pass untill I receive it.


No, there's absolutely nothing controversial about her WTC, and the sound is gorgeous.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 17, 2012, 12:54:59 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 11:48:37 AM
No, there's absolutely nothing controversial about her WTC, and the sound is gorgeous.
I think the new Rannou Goldberg recording is the most interesting recent Bach keyboard release.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 17, 2012, 01:05:57 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 16, 2012, 11:25:54 AM
Is it controversial in any way? I have ordered it, but a fortnight may easily pass untill I receive it.

On the contrary I find his Bach heavily underarticulated, bordering the sleep-provoking.
How do you feel about Belder's WTC?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 17, 2012, 07:54:03 AM
I noticed a  copy of set of Lars Ulrik Mortensen's partitas  and that started of a renewed interest in this music.

Anyway, one striking thing I've noticed is his  partita 5, which has  energy and good humour. More than most, he communicates joy, at least to me. Much the same in some of the other partitas, but 5 has caught my attention a lot.

And the final fugue!! I've become addicted to it.

Any suggestions for good Partita 5s -- especially lives or dark horses, much appreciated -- even if it's just an outstanding fugue.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F6zk2AIJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on January 17, 2012, 09:16:27 AM
Gustav Leonhardt Plays On

Keyboardist, Baroque Master Gustav Leonhardt Dies at 83 (http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2012/01/17/145337601/gustav-leonhardt-has-died-aged-83)
Dirigent Gustav Leonhardt gestorben (http://orf.at/stories/2100092/)

http://www.youtube.com/v/kk4WVN-48Hc
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Kontrapunctus on January 17, 2012, 12:51:22 PM
What about Mayako Sone?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Jx4KVT3gL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm selling my copy on Amazon. I like her playing, but I prefer multichannel SACDs.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on January 18, 2012, 01:55:00 PM
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQLvvJooMkgw1OpRU8z4bymF3OcO7jt5hci4AfVtPXTpo_L85qmcg)



I don't know what to say, except this recording is incredible! Wow!



Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 18, 2012, 05:09:14 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 18, 2012, 02:00:02 AM
Well, you can always use the internet. If you like them, you can buy them once you find a good used copy. Some of his recordings, like the Couperin set, have been out of print for years, so you might as well hit a p2p or emule network and worry about buying an hard copy later, if you ever find one.
Do you think his version of the partitas is especially enlightening? Is it as interesting as Leonhardt's and Suzuki's? 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Josquin des Prez on January 19, 2012, 03:16:44 AM
Quote from: milk on January 18, 2012, 05:07:36 PM
I haven't found it to download. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places. I don't need a hard copy and, of course, I'm willing to pay for it. But not 50$.

http://avaxhome.ws/music/classical/scott_ross_bach_6_partitas_bwv_825_830_erato.html

Try to see if those links are still up. If not i'll think of a way to upload the files myself.

Quote from: milk on January 18, 2012, 05:09:14 PM
Do you think his version of the partitas is especially enlightening? Is it as interesting as Leonhardt's and Suzuki's?

You can check it out for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIAf9bBvieY

Its hard to pin down why i like those performances so much. I think he just gets everything right. The rhythm, the counterpoint, the general pace of the music. Everything just seems to flow in a perfectly harmonious whole, as if he was just improvising the music. A lot of harpsichordists have a tendency to sound disjointed since they are so focused on the detail that they forget the whole. With Ross, everything flows in a perfectly straight line, but the detail remains there.

Maybe its only because i like Bach so much but i think this is the best recording he has ever made.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 19, 2012, 03:38:26 AM
Quote from: milk on January 18, 2012, 05:09:14 PM
Do you think his version of the partitas is especially enlightening? Is it as interesting as Leonhardt's and Suzuki's?

I don't have the partitas by Ross, but I consider Verlet (2nd version on Naïve) and Dubreuil (Rameé) are excellent additions to Leonhardt and Suzuki. I think it's a good exercise to compare Ross and Verlet in the sinfonia of the 2nd partita (both are quite different, indeed):

http://youtu.be/GCvEWX5yRAQ

:)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 19, 2012, 04:08:38 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 19, 2012, 03:16:44 AM
http://avaxhome.ws/music/classical/scott_ross_bach_6_partitas_bwv_825_830_erato.html

Try to see if those links are still up. If not i'll think of a way to upload the files myself.

You can check it out for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIAf9bBvieY

Its hard to pin down why i like those performances so much. I think he just gets everything right. The rhythm, the counterpoint, the general pace of the music. Everything just seems to flow in a perfectly harmonious whole, as if he was just improvising the music. A lot of harpsichordists have a tendency to sound disjointed since they are so focused on the detail that they forget the whole. With Ross, everything flows in a perfectly straight line, but the detail remains there.

Maybe its only because i like Bach so much but i think this is the best recording he has ever made.
Thanks so much for trying but I can't seem to make this work. Now I want this more than ever.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on January 19, 2012, 05:23:11 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 19, 2012, 03:16:44 AM
http://avaxhome.ws/music/classical/scott_ross_bach_6_partitas_bwv_825_830_erato.html

Try to see if those links are still up. If not i'll think of a way to upload the files myself.

You can check it out for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIAf9bBvieY

Its hard to pin down why i like those performances so much. I think he just gets everything right. The rhythm, the counterpoint, the general pace of the music. Everything just seems to flow in a perfectly harmonious whole, as if he was just improvising the music. A lot of harpsichordists have a tendency to sound disjointed since they are so focused on the detail that they forget the whole. With Ross, everything flows in a perfectly straight line, but the detail remains there.

Maybe its only because i like Bach so much but i think this is the best recording he has ever made.

Thanks very much for the heads up on Scott Ross' account of Bach's Partitas. I have been listening to this  and I'm floored! You describe the performance well.

I've also grabbed more Ross recordings, and can't wait to explore his WTC books 1 and 2, I sampled it already and I'm intrigued at the faster speeds and objectivity in book 1, the instrument reminds me of a clavichord too.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 19, 2012, 05:38:45 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 19, 2012, 03:38:26 AM
I don't have the partitas by Ross, but I consider Verlet (2nd version on Naïve) and Dubreuil (Rameé) are excellent additions to Leonhardt and Suzuki.

Instead of Verlet and Dubreuil I would rather choose Mortensen and Belder. 

And then there are Gilbert and Jaccottet, but they may be difficult to find.



Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 19, 2012, 06:12:00 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 19, 2012, 05:38:45 AM
Instead of Verlet and Dubreuil I would rather choose Mortensen and Belder. 


Yes, both of them are fine sets, but offer less variety and contrast than Verlet and Dubreuil, compared to Leonhardt and Suzuki.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 20, 2012, 12:46:23 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 19, 2012, 06:12:00 AM
Yes, both of them are fine sets, but offer less variety and contrast than Verlet and Dubreuil, compared to Leonhardt and Suzuki.

Well, so far one considers variety the most important guiding principle.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 20, 2012, 02:20:27 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 20, 2012, 12:46:23 AM
Well, so far one considers variety the most important guiding principle.
Well, I'm not sure if this doesn't belong in the Bach thread but today I listened to Mortensen's partitas and quite enjoyed them.
For a long time I couldn't find any performance of the partitas that I could get into as much as Leonhardt's and Suzuki's. But I quite admire
Mortensen's set. His performance of the 6th partita really got me. It's quite an adventure. For some reason, I haven't been able to get into Pinnock
or Rousset so much but the fault may be my own. Anyway, having been able to hear a couple of tracks from Ross I'm intrigued. I had never heard of Puyana
until reading this thread today. I wonder if that's something I need to look into.   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 20, 2012, 08:23:23 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 20, 2012, 12:46:23 AM
Well, so far one considers variety the most important guiding principle.

Well, I never suggested that. I mean "variety" as "the most important guiding principle" to choose a recording.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 20, 2012, 11:24:06 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 20, 2012, 08:23:23 AM
Well, I never suggested that. I mean "variety" as "the most important guiding principle" to choose a recording.

OK, a modification: Not the most important, but an important guiding principle.

I have no problems with either of Verlets recordings of the partitas, but I know that some consider her second set wilfull and excentric. So I think one has to be cautious as to the the recommendation of this set.

Concerning Debreuil contra Belder I think their interpretations are of the same kind (compared to f.i. Leonhardt and Suzuk)i. And even if I like Dubruil´s take, I much prefer Belders.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 20, 2012, 11:29:31 PM
Quote from: milk on January 20, 2012, 02:20:27 AM
Well, I'm not sure if this doesn't belong in the Bach thread but today I listened to Mortensen's partitas and quite enjoyed them.
For a long time I couldn't find any performance of the partitas that I could get into as much as Leonhardt's and Suzuki's. But I quite admire
Mortensen's set. His performance of the 6th partita really got me. It's quite an adventure.
I am probably a bit chauvinistic, but I find Mortensens Bach partitas as mandatory as Leonhardt´s.

Quote from: milk
For some reason, I haven't been able to get into Pinnock
or Rousset so much but the fault may be my own.
Maybe or not. I feel in the same way, finding particulary Pinnock somewhat aloft in the partitas.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 21, 2012, 07:06:39 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 20, 2012, 11:29:31 PM
I am probably a bit chauvinistic, but I find Mortensens Bach partitas as mandatory as Leonhardt´s.
Maybe or not. I feel in the same way, finding particulary Pinnock somewhat aloft in the partitas.
I'm glad it's not just me. Are you also enamored with Ross's partitas? I recently acquired a recording of
Skip Sempé playing 828. I know the field is crowded, but I wonder why he's never recorded a complete
Bach set.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 21, 2012, 10:06:11 AM
Quote from: milk on January 21, 2012, 07:06:39 AM

Skip Sempé playing 828.

What do you think of the hell for leather speed of the overture? For me, what's interests me most in Partita 4 right now is the counterpoint, especially in the allemande .  And from that point of view I find Sempe and Ross a bit unrevealing, compared with Gilbert and Leonhardt and Mortensen, especially Gilbert.

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 20, 2012, 11:29:31 PM
I am probably a bit chauvinistic, but I find Mortensens Bach partitas as mandatory as Leonhardt´s.

Which Leonhardt -- DHM or Virgin or both or neither?

Quote from: milk on January 20, 2012, 02:20:27 AM
Well, I'm not sure if this doesn't belong in the Bach thread but today I listened to Mortensen's partitas and quite enjoyed them.
For a long time I couldn't find any performance of the partitas that I could get into as much as Leonhardt's and Suzuki's. But I quite admire
Mortensen's set. His performance of the 6th partita really got me. It's quite an adventure. For some reason, I haven't been able to get into Pinnock
or Rousset so much but the fault may be my own. Anyway, having been able to hear a couple of tracks from Ross I'm intrigued. I had never heard of Puyana
until reading this thread today. I wonder if that's something I need to look into.


There's a a couple opf early recording from Puyana  which I think are very good -- full of joyful music making. Some of the later stuff seems less inspired. He's a Landowska pupil I think, so he relishes unexpected registration changes sometimes. He is a bravura musician really -- not really contemplative.  If you can enjoy inauthentic performances then I think they're good fun.  These:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/313TBVREBFL._AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21ZFBDB5XHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This LP too -- I can let you have an upload if you're curious

(http://127.0.0.1:9000/music/32c4dd1a/cover_150x150_o)
For me, by the way, Suzuki's partitas  is a complete closed book. Can someone say what it is they're hearing that makes that set special playing. Then I can listen out for it .

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 21, 2012, 10:42:19 AM
Quote from: milk on January 21, 2012, 07:06:39 AM
Are you also enamored with Ross's partitas?
Yes, but not quite to the same degree as the others I mentioned : Leonhardt, Suzuki, Mortensen and Belder.

Quote from: milk
I recently acquired a recording of
Skip Sempé playing 828. I know the field is crowded, but I wonder why he's never recorded a complete
Bach set.
It´s a long time since I listened to this. As far as I remember, the most interesting part of the disc is Sempé´s arrangement of the chaconne from the violin partita no.2.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 21, 2012, 02:29:46 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 21, 2012, 10:06:11 AM
What do you think of the hell for leather speed of the overture? For me, what's interests me most in Partita 4 right now is the counterpoint, especially in the allemande .  And from that point of view I find Sempe and Ross a bit unrevealing, compared with Gilbert and Leonhardt and Mortensen, especially Gilbert.

Which Leonhardt -- DHM or Virgin or both or neither?

For me, by the way, Suzuki's partitas  is a complete closed book. Can someone say what it is they're hearing that makes that set special playing. Then I can listen out for it .
Hmm...The Gilbert recording looks difficult to find for a reasonable price. I didn't realize there are two Leonhardt partita recordings. I've got the Virgin one.
Is the DHM one an earlier recording? How do they compare?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 21, 2012, 02:39:08 PM
For me, by the way, Suzuki's partitas  is a complete closed book. Can someone say what it is they're hearing that makes that set special playing. Then I can listen out for it .
[/quote]
I'm hoping Premont might take a stab at this!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 21, 2012, 02:41:38 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 21, 2012, 10:42:19 AM
Yes, but not quite to the same degree as the others I mentioned : Leonhardt, Suzuli, Mortensen and Belder.
It´s a long time since I listened to this. As far as I remember, the most interesting part of the disc is Sempé´s arrangement of the chaconne from the violin partita no.2.
Do you also rate Belder's WTC highly? Not that I need another one but I was expecting a lot from Christine Schornsheim's new set and was disappointed. So
I'm thinking I might need another one.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 21, 2012, 03:51:07 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 20, 2012, 11:24:06 PM
OK, a modification: Not the most important, but an important guiding principle.

I have no problems with either of Verlets recordings of the partitas, but I know that some consider her second set wilfull and excentric. So I think one has to be cautious as to the the recommendation of this set.

Yes, this was a recommendation for a third o fourth set; not a recommendation for a first approach to this set of suites. So, some variety could be interesting.

I don't think Verlet is eccentric at all. Eccentric suppose a dose of arbitrary and capricious behavior and she is not that kind of performer. She is very personal; some time I said that she plays this music as if it were her intimate diary: turbulent, feminine and highly expressive. Anyway, I speak about her Naïve set because I don't particularly like her first recording on Philips.

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 20, 2012, 11:24:06 PM
Concerning Debreuil contra Belder I think their interpretations are of the same kind (compared to f.i. Leonhardt and Suzuk)i. And even if I like Dubruil´s take, I much prefer Belders.
Well, I also like Belder, but I prefer Dubreuil here (not very widely, anyway). IMO he is more expressive and does more justice to the rhetorical aspects of these dances. Certainly Belder is a bit more "German" in style, but I like the more sunny and light and expressive touch of Dubreuil. Curiously in the second part of the Clavier-Übung, I prefer Belder over Dubreuil which is not probably surprising because Belder plays my favorite Italian Concerto.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 22, 2012, 01:37:00 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 21, 2012, 10:06:11 AM
Which Leonhardt -- DHM or Virgin or both or neither?
In principle both, but I tend to prefer the more expressive DHM version to the more straight EMI (Virgin) version.

Quote from: Mandryka
There's a a couple of early recording from Puyana  which I think are very good -- full of joyful music making. Some of the later stuff seems less inspired. He's a Landowska pupil I think, so he relishes unexpected registration changes sometimes. He is a bravura musician really -- not really contemplative.  If you can enjoy inauthentic performances then I think they're good fun.
Precisely my impression of Puyana too - though I do not know his French ouverture from Clavierübung II.

Quote from: Mandryka
For me, by the way, Suzuki's partitas  is a complete closed book. Can someone say what it is they're hearing that makes that set special playing. Then I can listen out for it .
Well, Suzuki is not always easily accessible - to me he was an acquired taste. He often seems a bit academic, and I think the spirirt of the music sometimes eludes him (his Clavierübung III and his CD with organ works of Sweelinck being good examples of this), but his interpretation of the partitas is (other than being very informed) IMO loaded with energy and filled with passion.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 22, 2012, 01:47:23 AM
Quote from: milk on January 21, 2012, 02:41:38 PM
Do you also rate Belder's WTC highly? Not that I need another one but I was expecting a lot from Christine Schornsheim's new set and was disappointed. So
I'm thinking I might need another one.

I have not yet listened enough to it to say much about it,-  maybe surprising, but my CDs-to-be-listened-to pile is very huge.

I expect to receive C Schornheims version next week, and this will not make the pile smaller.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 22, 2012, 01:56:22 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 21, 2012, 03:51:07 PM
I don't think Verlet is eccentric at all. Eccentric suppose a dose of arbitrary and capricious behavior and she is not that kind of performer. She is very personal; some time I said that she plays this music as if it were her intimate diary: turbulent, feminine and highly expressive.
Different words, but I hardly see the difference in the actual contents.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 21, 2012, 03:51:07 PM
Certainly Belder is a bit more "German" in style, but I like the more sunny and light and expressive touch of Dubreuil. Curiously in the second part of the Clavier-Übung, I prefer Belder over Dubreuil which is not probably surprising because Belder plays my favorite Italian Concerto.
And this is why I prefer him, and in addition I find him eqally expressive.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 22, 2012, 02:55:59 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 22, 2012, 01:47:23 AM
I have not yet listened enough to it to say much about it,-  maybe surprising, but my CDs-to-be-listened-to pile is very huge.

I expect to receive C Schornheims version next week, and this will not make the pile smaller.
Please comment on it when you have a chance. My reaction to it hasn't been good but maybe I need to try again.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 22, 2012, 02:58:45 AM
Well, Suzuki is not always easily accessible - to me he was an acquired taste. He often seems a bit academic, and I think the spirirt of the music sometimes eludes him (his Clavierübung III and his CD with organ works of Sweelinck being good examples of this), but his interpretation of the partitas is (other than being very informed) IMO loaded with energy and filled with passion.
[/quote]
I feel this way about Suzuki's partitas. Also, his ornamentations are imaginative. But I'm really in love with Mortenen now. This is what
a great performance does for me: it draws me into the music again - almost as if I'm hearing it for the first time. It opens up new avenues
of experience.   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on January 22, 2012, 04:01:46 AM
Does anyone who has heard Schornsheim's WTC have positive thoughts on it?  I'm beginning to wonder if I should cancel my pre-order.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on January 22, 2012, 04:19:24 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 22, 2012, 04:01:46 AM
Does anyone who has heard Schornsheim's WTC have positive thoughts on it?  I'm beginning to wonder if I should cancel my pre-order.


great instrument, very good sound... does "nothing offputting" count as something positive. i like it; i'm not wowed by it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on January 22, 2012, 04:26:33 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 22, 2012, 04:19:24 AM

great instrument, very good sound... does "nothing offputting" count as something positive. i like it; i'm not wowed by it.

Fair enough.  Does it seem like a grower to you or will it continue to be in the 'just good' range?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2012, 04:45:46 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 22, 2012, 01:56:22 AM
Different words, but I hardly see the difference in the actual contents.
Then maybe I am just doing a "rhetorical" comment. But, as Bruce Haynes, I think that when you say something differently, you are saying something different. I see many differences between my adjectives and "eccentric", even without to mention the negative accent of the latter. I would say the same when Dubreuil is defined as simply "easygoing". That said, I don't have any problem at all, if someone defines those performances in those terms, but I easily see the difference in the contents.   

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 22, 2012, 01:56:22 AM
And this is why I prefer him, and in addition I find him eqally expressive.

I think Dubreuil does a better characterization of the affekten of these pieces.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 22, 2012, 06:01:18 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2012, 04:45:46 AM
.. as Bruce Haynes [say], I think that when you say something differently, you are saying something different.
Unless you say the same with other words.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand
I see many differences between my adjectives and "eccentric", even without to mention the negative accent of the latter.
"Eccentric" does not necessarily imply anything negative. It may just mean "something very individual". And I think Verlets second take of the partitas is too individual to be recommended as third or fourth choice, because only a few collectors collect as many recordings of the same works, as you and I.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand link
I think Dubreuil does a better characterization of the affekten of these pieces.
I must find the time for a relisten.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 22, 2012, 06:23:16 AM
However I just listened to a new acquisation, Anneke Uittenbosch´s WTC book.II (she does not seem to have recorded book I).

She is a pupil of Gustav Leonhardt and plays much in his style, but her sense of rhethorics is more pronounced with more rhythmic rubato - not as much as Pierre Hantaï though, and her playing is less tense than Leonhardt´s, more like Pieter-Jan Belder´s. Her playing is extremely clean and well articulated - up the highest standard. She plays a harpsichord by Joel Katzman after Parisian 17th century examples, actually the same kind of instrument Richard Egarr uses for his Louis Couperin set, but the tuning is different. Funny enough,already in the first Bach prelude i C major I had a feeling of an instrument out of tune (this was short time after listening to Egarr). Then I read in the booklet (the text is probably by Uittenbosch herself) that equal tuning was essential for Bach when composing the WTC, so what I heard was equal tuning.   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on January 22, 2012, 06:49:12 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 22, 2012, 06:23:16 AM
However I just listened to a new acquisation, Anneke Uittenbosch´s WTC book.II (she does not seem to have recorded book I).

She is a pupil of Gustav Leonhardt and plays much in his style, but her sense of rhethorics is more pronounced with more rhythmic rubato - not as much as Pierre Hantaï though, and her playing is less tense than Leonhardt´s, more like Pieter-Jan Belder´s. Her playing is extremely clean and well articulated - up the highest standard. She plays a harpsichord by Joel Katzman after Parisian 17th century examples, actually the same kind of instrument Richard Egarr uses for his Louis Couperin set, but the tuning is different. Funny enough,already in the first Bach prelude i C major I had a feeling of an instrument out of tune (this was short time after listening to Egarr). Then I read in the booklet (the text is probably by Uittenbosch herself) that equal tuning was essential for Bach when composing the WTC, so what I heard was equal tuning.

Thank you for your review. I am very interested in hearing a Joel Katzman instrument with equal tuning in contrast to Egarr's recordings.



Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 23, 2012, 01:03:37 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 21, 2012, 10:06:11 AM
What do you think of the hell for leather speed of the overture? For me, what's interests me most in Partita 4 right now is the counterpoint, especially in the allemande .  And from that point of view I find Sempe and Ross a bit unrevealing, compared with Gilbert and Leonhardt and Mortensen, especially Gilbert.
Yeah, you're right of course. The Sempe is fun but not nearly as revealing as Mortensen. I guess this was early on for Sempe. I really wonder what Sempe would do now
with the partitas. He's never done a complete set of any Bach as far as I know. It must be hard though, with so many musicians taking their best shots at the Goldbergs, Partitas, WTC, and French and English Suites. Is it restraint? I guess commendation is due to musicians that try to take the path less trodden. However, I can't imagine being a performer on that level and not wanting to record the best music ever written!
Ok, I'm going to stop fixating on Sempe. Gee, I wish I could locate that Gilbert recording.
I'm getting the sense that it'll be more worthwhile than the Ross.   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on January 25, 2012, 06:25:09 AM
I finally got Leonhardt's DHM account of the Partitas, and indeed, it is as great as folks here have said. I love this board!

:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on January 29, 2012, 09:29:15 AM
Despite some sound problems (regarding the D Major Partita) in Leonhardt's DHM account of the partitas, I am very drawn to it, and I'm drawn to the other performances on this set. They sneak into my thoughts often (I am used to the sets of Suzuki and Ross). Don's descriptions are right on in his comparison article at:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-Partitas-Pinnock1.htm (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-Partitas-Pinnock1.htm)

I am now interested in seeking out Leonhardt's WTF and other Bach recordings.

8)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 29, 2012, 10:18:14 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 20, 2012, 11:24:06 PM

I have no problems with either of Verlets recordings of the partitas, but I know that some consider her second set wilfull and excentric.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 21, 2012, 03:51:07 PM
I don't think Verlet is eccentric at all. Eccentric suppose a dose of arbitrary and capricious behavior and she is not that kind of performer. She is very personal; some time I said that she plays this music as if it were her intimate diary: turbulent, feminine and highly expressive. Anyway, I speak about her Naïve set because I don't particularly like her first recording on Philips.

I just listened to the 6th partita, on the 1977 and 2001 performances. 

Both sounded pretty turbulent, feminine and highly expressive. I don't see that one is more eccentric than the other, but maybe I don't have a good grasp of what the centre is.

I can't help wondering why Antoine Marchand doesn't like the first. I found the harpsichord sound less attractive, but not problematically so. And the poetry is different -- the emotion evoked is different, at least in 6. There's a nervous intensity about the Philips which I thought was really powerful, if slightly disconcerting. Little rushes of energy out of the blue sometimes.  Very turbulent!

Maybe Partita 6 isn't the best example to have chosen -- I'll continue exploring this week.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 29, 2012, 10:19:35 AM
Quote from: Leo K on January 29, 2012, 09:29:15 AM


I am now interested in seeking out Leonhardt's WTF and other Bach recordings.

8)

I'm very interested in the third record he made of the Goldbergs. A few weeks ago I set up a playlist with a whole bunch of different Var13s, including some piano ones in fact.

It was striking how distinctive Leonhardt's articulation and phrasing was in that recording.  That probably had something to do with the selection I made, of course!

Setting up a play list like that revealed how much variety there is. There's wes no sense of a central performance style.

(I had Landowska RCA, Hantai 1, Leonhardt 1 and 3, Kirkpatrick, Walcha, Tureck on Great Pianists, Sokolov, Verlet)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 29, 2012, 11:46:19 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 29, 2012, 10:18:14 AM
I can't help wondering why Antoine Marchand doesn't like the first. I found the harpsichord sound less attractive, but not problematically so. And the poetry is different -- the emotion evoked is different, at least in 6. There's a nervous intensity about the Philips which I thought was really powerful, if slightly disconcerting. Little rushes of energy out of the blue sometimes.  Very turbulent!

Maybe Partita 6 isn't the best example to have chosen -- I'll continue exploring this week.

Currently I don't have her first recording, but I prefer the second exactly for the reasons that you mention: sound of the harpsichord and some nervous character in the first one.

BTW, her interpretation of the Partita II BWV 826 is my favorite in that work: the interplay among its different movements defines an incredible range of expression, from the most extroverted eloquence to the most tender and personal expression. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on January 29, 2012, 09:54:23 PM
Quote from: Leo K on January 29, 2012, 09:29:15 AM
I am now interested in seeking out Leonhardt's WTF and other Bach recordings.

8)

WTF!

;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on January 30, 2012, 06:00:49 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on January 29, 2012, 09:54:23 PM
WTF!

;D

Oh my! I'm so embarrassed!

:-[
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on January 30, 2012, 06:04:37 AM
Quote from: Leo K on January 30, 2012, 06:00:49 AM
Oh my! I'm so embarrassed!

:-[

It's just a typo in the interwebs. ;) :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 01, 2012, 06:41:56 PM
Any thoughts on Belder's recording of the Goldberg Variations on Brilliant Classics?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Oldnslow on February 01, 2012, 10:56:05 PM
One  Bach haprsichord recording I have enjoyed recently is by Olga Martynova on Caro Mitis of the English suites. Beautiful playing, gorgeous recording. Her J.C. Bach CD is also wonderful.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 03, 2012, 06:25:35 AM
Watchorn's recording of the toccatas is jaw-dropping, though there is a bit much reverb. (I like my recordings to be as dry as Don does.)  Strongly recommended for anyone interested in those works.  It's the first time I've really been able to connect with some Bach works on harpsichord.  Any suggestions for a recording I should pair with it?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 03, 2012, 07:43:28 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 29, 2012, 11:46:19 AM
Currently I don't have her first recording, but I prefer the second exactly for the reasons that you mention: sound of the harpsichord and some nervous character in the first one.

BTW, her interpretation of the Partita II BWV 826 is my favorite in that work: the interplay among its different movements defines an incredible range of expression, from the most extroverted eloquence to the most tender and personal expression.
This isn't the easiest recording to track down. I mean the second one.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on February 03, 2012, 09:11:10 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 03, 2012, 06:25:35 AM
Watchorn's recording of the toccatas is jaw-dropping, though there is a bit much reverb. (I like my recordings to be as dry as Don does.)  Strongly recommended for anyone interested in those works.  It's the first time I've really been able to connect with some Bach works on harpsichord.  Any suggestions for a recording I should pair with it?

Yes, Bob van Asperen playing the Inventions/Sinfonias and more on an Aeolus disc.  It's my favorite disc of this music on harpsichord or piano because I find the dialogue captivating and love the subtle changes in tempo.

[asin]B000055WN9[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on February 04, 2012, 08:18:50 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yApHWm76L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Wow...this is quite a recording, Glen Wilson's WTC book II. Glad this thread is so helpful in finding great recommends.

Thanks all!

8)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 05, 2012, 02:22:36 PM
I've just listened to the first disc of Watchorn's English Suites recording.  I tend to agree with the assessment of some members that he is a bit heavy-handed, but what a beautiful harpsichord, and it's well recorded, too.  I love the bass end on that thing!

How are his French Suites?  Do they also seem heavy handed?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 02:58:13 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 05, 2012, 02:22:36 PM
How are his French Suites?  Do they also seem heavy handed?

IMO, better than his English Suites. Watchorn sounds less stern and more in tune with the spirit of dance. Harpsichord and sound quality are outstanding. Additionally, it's a 3-CD set and the third CD offers the Little Preludes BWV 924 to BWV 943, as a bonus.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 05, 2012, 03:40:21 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 02:58:13 PM
IMO, better than his English Suites. Watchorn sounds less stern and more in tune with the spirit of dance. Harpsichord and sound quality are outstanding. Additionally, it's a 3-CD set and the third CD offers the Little Preludes BWV 924 to BWV 943, as a bonus.

That's wonderful to hear.  I wanted to make sure it was less stern and more in tune with the spirit of the dance, as you put it, before I laid down money for it given that it's a bit more expensive than the English Suites.  I'll look into that recording.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 05, 2012, 09:53:38 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 02:58:13 PM
IMO, better than his English Suites. Watchorn sounds less stern and more in tune with the spirit of dance. Harpsichord and sound quality are outstanding. Additionally, it's a 3-CD set and the third CD offers the Little Preludes BWV 924 to BWV 943, as a bonus.
I had a hard time getting into Watchorn's French Suites. I much prefer Van Asperen, Brookshire, Moroney and Curtis.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 06, 2012, 02:01:08 AM
Quote from: milk on February 05, 2012, 09:53:38 PM
I had a hard time getting into Watchorn's French Suites. I much prefer Van Asperen, Brookshire, Moroney and Curtis.

Well, I guess it's a lawful opinion.  ;D

I totally enjoyed Watchorn's set, but I haven't still decided its place among my favorite recordings. Some of those are Curtis, Koopman (Erato) and (after some fight) Cates.   

Anyway, what I wrote about Watchorn was especially a comparative opinion with his English Suites. And, IMO, he sounds more spontaneous here, probably because of the more tuneful and less complex nature of the music itself.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 06, 2012, 04:39:41 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 06, 2012, 02:01:08 AM
Well, I guess it's a lawful opinion.  ;D

I totally enjoyed Watchorn's set, but I haven't still decided its place among my favorite recordings. Some of those are Curtis, Koopman (Erato) and (after some fight) Cates.   

Anyway, what I wrote about Watchorn was especially a comparative opinion with his English Suites. And, IMO, he sounds more spontaneous here, probably because of the more tuneful and less complex nature of the music itself.
Well, maybe I should give Watchorn another chance. The instrument and sound quality are certainly excellent as always. I've come to really appreciate his WTC.
Are you impressed at all with Van Asperen's French Suites? The original Vater he plays is unlike any other harpsichord I've heard. What a sound! - So charming!
And his performance matches the delicacy and charm of the instrument. I don't know why I struggle with Cates. Everyone loves his French Suites but the recording eludes me. I'm sure the fault is in my own ears. Interesting that Van Asperen, Brookshire and Watchorn all play Vaters or Vater copies on their French Suites. I'd like to find a recording, aside from these, that uses a Vater harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2012, 07:50:43 AM
Quote from: milk on February 06, 2012, 04:39:41 AM
Well, maybe I should give Watchorn another chance. The instrument and sound quality are certainly excellent as always. I've come to really appreciate his WTC.
Are you impressed at all with Van Asperen's French Suites? The original Vater he plays is unlike any other harpsichord I've heard. What a sound! - So charming!
And his performance matches the delicacy and charm of the instrument. I don't know why I struggle with Cates. Everyone loves his French Suites but the recording eludes me. I'm sure the fault is in my own ears. Interesting that Van Asperen, Brookshire and Watchorn all play Vaters or Vater copies on their French Suites. I'd like to find a recording, aside from these, that uses a Vater harpsichord.

No. I don't like Cates either and I know why. You're not alone and it's not your ears.

The problem is partly to do with basic tempo choices. Too slow. Sarabandes and Allemandes become like elephants' dances. Sometimes -- like in the sarabande to suite 4 -- the music almost falls apart because the basic tempo is so slow. The faster dances aren't dynamic either.

And there are some less objective problems. I think the instrument sounds unattractive and I don't get much care for his ornamentation either: Koopman's ornamentation is much more inginative and makes the music much more fun. I think Cates is inclined towards the reverential and the dry.

My favourite complete sets  French Suites  are Koopman's and Koroliov's, to which I would add some odd ones from Landowska and Richter. Koroliov, more than any other musician I've heard, has  made great poetry from this music.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 07, 2012, 06:02:15 AM
Differently to Mandrika, I'd recommend a careful hearing of Cates' set to all those interested in the French Suites (and some extra preludes added to them in this recording), specially if they are not averse to some tempi on the slow side. As Bulldog as pointed out (here and in some reviews), the staggering technique used by Cates is particularly interesting and he gets some almost hypnotic effects. IMO, this interpretation is sort of "midnight listen", where a totally concentrated disposition and a particularly silent room are mandatory to enjoy it.

Additionally, although I don't consider the copy of a French harpsichord used by Cates the most beautiful intrument in the world, IMO it's far of being detrimental to his performance.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 07, 2012, 08:53:12 AM
I think the post I made was inaccurate in fact. It's really a question of slow tempos per se which I find makes Cates's recordings so unattractive. It's the combination of slow tempos and his particular style of rubato, his particular style of tempo-flexibility. That, and occasionally disorienting hesitations (though I've learned that I'm particularly sensitive about that: others may not be so bothered)

Contrast Cates with Leonhardt, who also sometimes takes things slowly in the 1975 recordings, in the allemande and sarabande of  Suite 4 for example.  Leonhardt seems more interesting to me. There's none of the lumbering quality which I find so horrid in some of Cates's slow dances; there's never the sense that the music is almost stationary. Ironically  Leonhardt's performance has for me some of the hypnotic quality that Antoine Marchand finds in Cates.

I'd like to ask those who appreciate Cates's French Suites  where they think he is particularly successful.  I'm quite prepared to believe that I've missed something important. His approach is so personal, so rhythmically  nuanced, and so obviously deeply considered, that I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that there are insights there which have eluded me.

I didn't want to make a big thing of the tone of his harpsichord -- that's not a real important consideration to me. I'll just report that I find both Koopman's and Leonhardt's instrument more attractive, but that's just a matter of taste.

Oh and a final question. I've never heard Leonhardt's 1988 recording which is  listed on bach-cantatas.com. Is it on CD?



Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on February 07, 2012, 09:08:51 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 07, 2012, 08:53:12 AM
I think the post I made was inaccurate in fact. It's really a question of slow tempos per se which I find makes Cates's recordings so unattractive. It's the combination of slow tempos and his particular style of rubato, his particular style of tempo-flexibility. That, and occasionally disorienting hesitations (though I've learned that I'm particularly sensitive about that: others may not be so bothered)

Contrast Cates with Leonhardt, who also sometimes takes things slowly in the 1975 recordings, in the allemande and sarabande of  Suite 4 for example.  Leonhardt seems more interesting to me. There's none of the lumbering quality which I find so horrid in some of Cates's slow dances; there's never the sense that the music is almost stationary. Ironically  Leonhardt's performance has for me some of the hypnotic quality that Antoine Marchand finds in Cates.

I'd like to ask those who appreciate Cates's French Suites  where they think he is particularly successful.  I'm quite prepared to believe that I've missed something important. His approach is so personal, so rhythmically  nuanced, and so obviously deeply considered, that I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that there are insights there which have eluded me.

I don't know if there are insights that have eluded you.  In a prior posting, you talked enthusiastically about the "fun" that the music possesses.  As it happens, the Cates interpretation isn't about fun, but emotional depth and incisiveness; that's where the staggering of musical lines is so effective.  I think a listener has to enter the world that Cates offers; if not done, I have no doubt that his performances will not be compelling.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 07, 2012, 09:02:10 PM
It's like a religious cult, this Cates recording.  Neophytes who perform the rite at midnight with an open mind can enter into the new world, a world full of emotional depth and incisiveness.



Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on February 07, 2012, 09:10:42 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 07, 2012, 09:02:10 PM
It's like a religious cult, this Cates recording. Neophytes who perform the rite at midnight with an open mind can enter into the new world, a world full of emotional depth and incisiveness.

I do believe you've figured it out. 8)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on February 08, 2012, 03:27:06 AM
Quote from: milk on February 06, 2012, 04:39:41 AM
Well, maybe I should give Watchorn another chance. The instrument and sound quality are certainly excellent as always. I've come to really appreciate his WTC.
Are you impressed at all with Van Asperen's French Suites? The original Vater he plays is unlike any other harpsichord I've heard. What a sound! - So charming!
And his performance matches the delicacy and charm of the instrument. I don't know why I struggle with Cates. Everyone loves his French Suites but the recording eludes me. I'm sure the fault is in my own ears. Interesting that Van Asperen, Brookshire and Watchorn all play Vaters or Vater copies on their French Suites. I'd like to find a recording, aside from these, that uses a Vater harpsichord.

For what it's worth, I like Rousset's French Suites the best. Comparatively expansive and rubato-heavy, but not at all slow or lumbering... and supremely rich (too rich for some) recorded on the gorgeous Neuchâtel Ruckers. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/best-recordings-of-2010-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/best-recordings-of-2010-1.html), http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=2640 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=2640)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 10, 2012, 04:08:40 PM
Que expressed an interest in this album, so I'll be providing some preliminary impressions upon first listen:

[asin]B0037W391K[/asin]

I was interested in hearing a recording of the French Suites by a French harpsichordist to supplement my recording by Curtis, and this album fit the budget at around $10 shipped, so I took the risk on an album that didn't have any reviews here or at Amazon.  I'm glad I did, it was love at first listen.  I should note at this point that this is the first recording of the French Suites I've given a serious listen to, so I cannot compare to other interpretations.

First, I'll make some observation on the sound of the harpsichord itself:  On the spectrum ranging from Borgstede's recording of Handel's Harpsichord Suites (the darkest-toned harpsichord I've yet heard) to skeletons copulating on a tin roof, this harpsichord's tone is near the middle of that spectrum, leaning slightly toward the skeletons.  I personally find this a very nice balance.  It's got a nice, bright, and full -- almost piano-like -- top-end that is quite beautiful, and a nice bottom-end.  We're not talking Watchorn level bottom end, but it's certainly respectable and adds just enough 'weight' to the recording to add a bit of drama and a certain regal quality where required, while still allowing Baumont to dance, rather than get bogged down in details trying to seek out those effects.  A fine, fine instrument and in my opinion worth the price of entry just to hear that.

The production is just how I like it:  Nice and dry, very little reverb, but the instrument isn't pushed so far to the front that it becomes offensive.  No complaints here.

Baumont takes a light touch throughout and never seems to lose momentum.  His tempo adjustments are subtle and never seem fussy.  Combine this with the beautiful instrument and you have the makings of an excellent recording.  The two CPE Bach suites used to fill out the disc make an excellent pairing with Bach's suites.  Now if only Baumont would have the sense to record a disc (or integral :D) of C.P.E. Bach's keyboard works on harpsichord...

In short, highly recommended to fans of the French Suites.  It's certainly made me into a fan and I will be collecting more recordings in the future.  I can't tell for certain yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes my reference recording.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on February 10, 2012, 11:03:33 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 10, 2012, 04:08:40 PM
Que expressed an interest in this album, so I'll be provide some preliminary impressions upon first listen:

Very much appreciated! :)

I did a listen of samples myself (French or German Amazon) and I put it on my wishlist. I was surprised it is - especially considering the bargain price - a recent recording. I believe Baumont uses a French harpsichord but also stylistically this performance sounds very "French" performance - suddenly the connection to Louis Couperin becomes much more apparent. Light touch and subtle, that's Baumont indeed. I already have Alan Curtis and Christophe Rousset (I'm going to revist his French Suites this morning), but I'm going for this one forthwith! :D

By the sound of it the CPE extras are going to be very worthwhile as well.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 11, 2012, 01:46:51 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on February 10, 2012, 11:03:33 PM
Very much appreciated! :)

I did a listen of samples myself (French or German Amazon) and I put it on my wishlist. I was surprised it is - especially considering the bargain price - a recent recording. I believe Baumont uses a French harpsichord but also stylistically this performance sounds very "French" performance - suddenly the connection to Louis Couperin becomes much more apparent. Light touch and subtle, that's Baumont indeed. I already have Alan Curtis and Christophe Rousset (I'm going to revist his French Suites this morning), but I'm going for this one forthwith! :D

Glad I could help.  And yes, it is a French harpsichord.  Based on this I'm very much looking forward to Baumont's recording of the Italian Concerto transcriptions which you recommended (also available at a bargain price!).  I got that one based on your recommendation, and it seems that I've returned the favor. :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on February 11, 2012, 06:47:19 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lC8XmCK8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I managed to get a hold of Glen Wilson's Book 1, and it's everything I've heard it to be in reviews...incredible.

The prelude and fugue no.8 in Eb minor alone is worth the seeking of this recording. Truly magnificent.

I also love the sound of his harpsichord, with it's airy and delicate tone. Wilson's mercurial playing is such a reward.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on February 11, 2012, 06:49:26 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 10, 2012, 04:08:40 PM
Que expressed an interest in this album, so I'll be providing some preliminary impressions upon first listen:

[asin]B0037W391K[/asin]

I was interested in hearing a recording of the French Suites by a French harpsichordist to supplement my recording by Curtis, and this album fit the budget at around $10 shipped, so I took the risk on an album that didn't have any reviews here or at Amazon.  I'm glad I did, it was love at first listen.  I should note at this point that this is the first recording of the French Suites I've given a serious listen to, so I cannot compare to other interpretations.

First, I'll make some observation on the sound of the harpsichord itself:  On the spectrum ranging from Borgstede's recording of Handel's Harpsichord Suites (the darkest-toned harpsichord I've yet heard) to skeletons copulating on a tin roof, this harpsichord's tone is near the middle of that spectrum, leaning slightly toward the skeletons.  I personally find this a very nice balance.  It's got a nice, bright, and full -- almost piano-like -- top-end that is quite beautiful, and a nice bottom-end.  We're not talking Watchorn level bottom end, but it's certainly respectable and adds just enough 'weight' to the recording to add a bit of drama and a certain regal quality where required, while still allowing Baumont to dance, rather than get bogged down in details trying to seek out those effects.  A fine, fine instrument and in my opinion worth the price of entry just to hear that.

The production is just how I like it:  Nice and dry, very little reverb, but the instrument isn't pushed so far to the front that it becomes offensive.  No complaints here.

Baumont takes a light touch throughout and never seems to lose momentum.  His tempo adjustments are subtle and never seem fussy.  Combine this with the beautiful instrument and you have the makings of an excellent recording.  The two CPE Bach suites used to fill out the disc make an excellent pairing with Bach's suites.  Now if only Baumont would have the sense to record a disc (or integral :D) of C.P.E. Bach's keyboard works on harpsichord...

In short, highly recommended to fans of the French Suites.  It's certainly made me into a fan and I will be collecting more recordings in the future.  I can't tell for certain yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes my reference recording.

Thank you for the review!

8)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on February 11, 2012, 05:31:20 PM
Ordered this tonight, and will report in due course.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/687813.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on February 11, 2012, 05:33:22 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 11, 2012, 05:31:20 PM
Ordered this tonight, and will report in due course.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/687813.jpg)

This set has become very popular on this forum ...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on February 11, 2012, 11:04:08 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 11, 2012, 05:33:22 PM
This set has become very popular on this forum ...

With Wilson and Dantone on the shelves and being through dozens of WTC's in the past, I'm not easily convinced there is another WTC for me our there! :) Though Schornsheim's and Belder's are on the "check list". 8)

Going through the Amazon samples fo the Schornsheim as I write. Some impressions -taking in mind the restrictions of sampling - very pretty & propelling playing, as I know Schornsheim. Interesting and varied use of the different registers. But ehh...doesn't anyone feel it sounds - a times - a bit overly fussy and laborious? It doesn't grab me emotionally - I guess sofar the magic doesn't come through... ::) Saw it's terribly cheap - that's good in any case! :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 12, 2012, 03:38:27 AM
I have the Curtis and Watchorn sets of the English Suites.  Any recommendations for a third set?

EDIT:  Not interested in Rousset.  I prefer a drier recording.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on February 12, 2012, 04:40:35 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 12, 2012, 03:38:27 AM
I have the Curtis and Watchorn sets of the English Suites.  Any recommendations for a third set?

Leonhardt (either the Virgin or the Sony - or better: Both) - self-recommending

van Asperen (Brilliant) - doesn´t (compared to other available sets) differ that much from Curtis, whom I marginally prefer to van Asperen

Rannou (ZigZag) - too French to some but listenable, contrary to Rousset

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 12, 2012, 04:49:52 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 11, 2012, 05:33:22 PM
This set has become very popular on this forum ...
I'm wondering if anyone likes the Christine Schornsheim recording.
As for the English Suites, many people recommended Edward Parmentier.
This turned out well for me!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 12, 2012, 07:08:53 AM
Quote from: milk on February 12, 2012, 04:49:52 AM
As for the English Suites, many people recommended Edward Parmentier.
This turned out well for me!

Unfortunately, it seems to be out of print.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on February 12, 2012, 07:09:23 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on February 11, 2012, 11:04:08 PM
With Wilson and Dantone on the shelves and being through dozens of WTC's in the past, I'm not easily convinced there is another WTC for me our there! :) Though Schornsheim's and Belder's are on the "check list". 8)

Going through the Amazon samples fo the Schornsheim as I write. Some impressions -taking in mind the restrictions of sampling - very pretty & propelling playing, as I know Schornsheim. Interesting and varied use of the different registers. But ehh...doesn't anyone feel it sounds - a times - a bit overly fussy and laborious? It doesn't grab me emotionally - I guess sofar the magic doesn't come through... ::) Saw it's terribly cheap - that's good in any case! :)

Q

Q,   How do you like the WTC's by Kenneth Gilbert?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 12, 2012, 12:42:46 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 12, 2012, 04:40:35 AM
Leonhardt (either the Virgin or the Sony - or better: Both) - self-recommending

van Asperen (Brilliant) - doesn´t (compared to other available sets) differ that much from Curtis, whom I marginally prefer to van Asperen

Rannou (ZigZag) - too French to some but listenable, contrary to Rousset

Thanks.  Based on samples I'm thinking of waiting a while and then buying Rannou's box set.

By the way, do you find Rousset's set unlistenable due to the acoustics or for other reasons?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 12, 2012, 11:11:03 PM
The only Leonhardt recordings of those suites I've heard are the Virgin ones. I've never really enjoyed the way he plays them. Compared with Walcha's, which is my favourite, they're dry and cautious and  and colourless. Walcha is particularly "deeply felt" in this music. I can't explain why I hear Leonhardt and Walcha this way: clearly Leonhardt is more rhythmically flexible. I put the links to the Walcha record somewhere on this oard once -- they should still be around.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on February 13, 2012, 01:26:42 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 12, 2012, 12:42:46 PM
By the way, do you find Rousset's set unlistenable due to the acoustics or for other reasons?

First and foremost the acoustics, but even that I find Rousset a bit too streamlined in this music.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on February 13, 2012, 01:38:10 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 12, 2012, 11:11:03 PM
The only Leonhardt recordings of those suites I've heard are the Virgin ones. I've never really enjoyed the way he plays them. Compared with Walcha's, which is my favourite, they're dry and cautious and  and colourless. Walcha is particularly "deeply felt" in this music. I can't explain why I hear Leonhardt and Walcha this way: clearly Leonhardt is more rhythmically flexible. I put the links to the Walcha record somewhere on this oard once -- they should still be around.

Leonhardt was sometimes accused of being too academic, and this may be the case here. I also find the instrument he uses (The "Lefebvre)" sounding too French to Bachs music. His first take of the English suites (Seon / Sony) is more convincing.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 13, 2012, 05:28:33 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 12, 2012, 07:08:53 AM
Unfortunately, it seems to be out of print.
It popped up on Itunes in October so I downloaded it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 13, 2012, 06:18:45 AM
Quote from: milk on February 13, 2012, 05:28:33 AM
It popped up on Itunes in October so I downloaded it.

Indeed, but I don't tend to order MP3 downloads.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on February 13, 2012, 09:44:25 AM
I listened this morning during breakfast on Youttube the following recordings of the English Suites, which BTW have despite their nickname bear a "French" connection in a musical sense. I favour the theory that they were inspired by the suites published by the London based (there's the English connection) French composer Charles Dieupart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dieupart). A French flavour in performance is therefore not inappropriate IMO.

Edward Parmentier - I was not so impressed. Detailed and cultivated yes, but structurally and rhythmically not very strong. And I don't like his accents, nor his left hand.....no, not for me....

Van Asperen - quite impressed indeed. Thanks to premont for mentioning it! :) Though maybe still a small hint of the mechanical playing left that IMO marred his earlier recordings. A Dutch School "Germanic" approach.

I have currently besides Alan Curtis also Christophe Rousset on the shelves. And like it, though his tempi seemed a bit too much and exhausting at first. But once I got into it - it's pretty impressive.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 13, 2012, 10:01:12 PM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on February 13, 2012, 09:44:25 AM
I listened this morning during breakfast on Youttube the following recordings of the English Suites, which BTW have despite their nickname bear a "French" connection in a musical sense. I favour the theory that they were inspired by the suites published by the London based (there's the English connection) French composer Charles Dieupart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dieupart). A French flavour in performance is therefore not inappropriate IMO.

Edward Parmentier - I was not so impressed. Detailed and cultivated yes, but structurally and rhythmically not very strong. And I don't like his accents, nor his left hand.....no, not for me....

Van Asperen - quite impressed indeed. Thanks to premont for mentioning it! :) Though maybe still a small hint of the mechanical playing left that IMO marred his earlier recordings. A Dutch School "Germanic" approach.

I have currently besides Alan Curtis also Christophe Rousset on the shelves. And like it, though his tempi seemed a bit too much and exhausting at first. But once I got into it - it's pretty impressive.

Q
Have you heard Rannou's English Suites?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 14, 2012, 08:36:35 AM
Based on a first listen yesterday this is a wonderful recording:

[asin]B004IZAEQS[/asin]

I ordered it based on a glowing review in a back issue of ARG and a fascination with pedal harpsichords.  I was a bit skeptical about the program, initially, since there were a few excerpted works in there (toccata without fugue, etc.), and about the interpretation, which I felt may be a bit clinical, but the disc is amazing.  The end result sounds like a brilliant organist attempting a take on a different instrument and loses none of the profoundness or passion of the works played on the organ, and certainly manages to maintain a great beauty, albeit, a different kind from what you get with an organ.  I heartily recommend it to harpsichord fanatics and to organ fanatics that don't mind a harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 14, 2012, 04:16:29 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41k-xDhLx0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I ordered this album yesterday based on the strength of Baumont's French Suites and Que's fondness for the album.  After my first listen, I have no regrets whatsoever!  The playing is wonderful, the music is amazing (it's hard to believe that some of these works were transcribed by Bach merely for self-study purposes!) and the sound is great.  One also can't go wrong with the budget price.  Thanks, Que.  This certainly makes me anxious for Baumont's Four Harpsichord Suites/Clavichord Pieces disc to arrive.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 14, 2012, 08:45:16 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 14, 2012, 08:36:35 AM
Based on a first listen yesterday this is a wonderful recording:

[asin]B004IZAEQS[/asin]

I ordered it based on a glowing review in a back issue of ARG and a fascination with pedal harpsichords.  I was a bit skeptical about the program, initially, since there were a few excerpted works in there (toccata without fugue, etc.), and about the interpretation, which I felt may be a bit clinical, but the disc is amazing.  The end result sounds like a brilliant organist attempting a take on a different instrument and loses none of the profoundness or passion of the works played on the organ, and certainly manages to maintain a great beauty, albeit, a different kind from what you get with an organ.  I heartily recommend it to harpsichord fanatics and to organ fanatics that don't mind a harpsichord.
I also enjoy this recording. In fact, I would love him to continue with another recording of organ pieces on this instrument. I wonder if the people here who are so intimately familiar with Bach's organ output feel this is warranted.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2012, 01:10:21 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 03, 2012, 09:11:10 AM
Yes, Bob van Asperen playing the Inventions/Sinfonias and more on an Aeolus disc.  It's my favorite disc of this music on harpsichord or piano because I find the dialogue captivating and love the subtle changes in tempo.

[asin]B000055WN9[/asin]

I thought Asperen was really beautiful in Sinfonia 5; the slow tempo was really touching. Elsewhere I wasn't so convinced by some of the tempos, In Sinfonia 9 I think I prefer Leonhardt, who takes it faster and, I think, is better at telling a story with the music.

Also, don't you not find that sometimes, there's  not enough space and air around the notes, so that the resulting texture is rather thick and full of notes?

I was intrigued by your point about dialogue. An example would be good so I could listen out for what you mean.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 15, 2012, 03:16:57 AM
Quote from: milk on February 14, 2012, 08:45:16 PM
I also enjoy this recording. In fact, I would love him to continue with another recording of organ pieces on this instrument. I wonder if the people here who are so intimately familiar with Bach's organ output feel this is warranted.

I too would enjoy a second recording in this series.  I'm a fan of his organ works, but I'm certainly not among the most intimately familiar with those works.  I'll leave it to those members (many of whom visit this thread) to answer that question.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on February 15, 2012, 07:46:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 15, 2012, 01:10:21 AM
I thought Asperen was really beautiful in Sinfonia 5; the slow tempo was really touching. Elsewhere I wasn't so convinced by some of the tempos, In Sinfonia 9 I think I prefer Leonhardt, who takes it faster and, I think, is better at telling a story with the music.

Also, don't you not find that sometimes, there's  not enough space and air around the notes, so that the resulting texture is rather thick and full of notes?

No, I didn't find that at all.  Concerning the dialogue, it's front and center in each piece.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2012, 10:36:06 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 15, 2012, 07:46:49 AM
No, I didn't find that at all.  Concerning the dialogue, it's front and center in each piece.

Yes  I can hear that in some of the inventions. But what I couldn't hear was that he deals with that in a specially interesting or successful way. Compared with Landowska or Leonhardt or Verlet.

This textural thing that I mentioned is particular clear to me in the faster music. Leonhardt, for example, is more limpid.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on February 15, 2012, 01:27:51 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 15, 2012, 10:36:06 AM
Yes  I can hear that in some of the inventions. But what I couldn't hear was that he deals with that in a specially interesting or successful way. Compared with Landowska or Leonhardt or Verlet.

This textural thing that I mentioned is particular clear to me in the faster music. Leonhardt, for example, is more limpid.

I don't know what to tell you.  Obviously, you don't hear what I hear and vice versa.  We'll just have to leave it at that, since the subject has strong subjective elements.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on February 16, 2012, 09:29:41 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 16, 2012, 05:48:43 PM
Giving this a first run through.  Now on CD 3, the first half of Book II
[asin]B0064DLG32[/asin]
First off, the undoubted positive--the harpsichord (1624 Ruckers renovated by an anonymous 18th century (probably) Frenchman) sounds wonderful, and the engineering does it full justice.  For those that like harpsichord pr0n, the packaging features a beautiful picture of the instrument

As to the playing--she seems to prefer a quiet, reflective approach, sometimes approaching the "cantabile" approach linked to Egarr.  Occasionally this comes out as being merely stodgy. She can be brisk, although it's usually a walking fast brisk as opposed to a running brisk--IOW, not extremely brisk but not slow.    My personal preference is for a faster, more vigorous approach,  but that's only my preference.  Someone who doesn't share that will undoubtedly enjoy this recording more than I do.

That said, I don't want to sound negative--within those limits, the playing is well done (voicing, etc.).  I'm glad I got this set, but it won't be my first choice for the WTC (which currently sits with Belder).

Thanks for the comments! :) They are more or less conguent with my own impressions.

The Belder set is on the list to investigate more - my first impressions when it came out were favourable.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on February 19, 2012, 08:17:17 AM
(http://www.tradebit.com/usr/mp3-album/pub/9002/392/392061/39206191.jpg)

As far as harpsichord recordings go, this is one of the best sounding I've heard, in terms of the instrument and sound quality.

The performances have precise articulation with interesting rhythm choices that drive the drama with intensity. The overall tone is rather cool, and driven. I absolutely love this WTC.


8)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 19, 2012, 09:10:10 AM
Quote from: Leo K on February 19, 2012, 08:17:17 AM
As far as harpsichord recordings go, this is one of the best sounding I've heard, in terms of the instrument and sound quality.

The performances have precise articulation with interesting rhythm choices that drive the drama with intensity. The overall tone is rather cool, and driven. I absolutely love this WTC.


8)

:( :( :(

Unfortunately I've become quite a Hantai fan-boy recently and it seems that I'll be picking up another WTC 1.  Due to this being out of print I'll probably be picking it up soon, too.  I'll have to see if I can arrange for it at the beginning of March.

...Now, when will he get around to the WTC 2? ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 19, 2012, 09:35:09 AM
Quote from: Discobole on February 19, 2012, 09:27:21 AM
Everyone is wondering but no answer yet, it is not planned for the moment. Hantaï is very interested in ensemble music at the moment and wishes to record Bach Brandenburg concertos, Suites, and other orchestral pieces (from Bach and others) with his ensemble Le Concert français (which was revived for the occasion).

Thank you for the information.  I've scoured the internet, but the man is a ghost!  Not even a Facebook page.  This information would also explain why his Scarlatti series seems to have been put on hold.

Well, I'm becoming quite addicted to solo harpsichord recordings and hope that he gets back to those at some point, but I certainly can't ask an artist to ignore the direction his mind pulls him in.  Hopefully he'll record some great stuff with those ensembles and then take a break to record some more solo material.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 19, 2012, 04:38:32 PM
Quote from: Discobole on February 19, 2012, 09:27:21 AM
Everyone is wondering but no answer yet, it is not planned for the moment. Hantaï is very interested in ensemble music at the moment and wishes to record Bach Brandenburg concertos, Suites, and other orchestral pieces (from Bach and others) with his ensemble Le Concert français (which was revived for the occasion).

I haven't read all this subject yet. Except Hantaï, if I had to cite the most exciting recent recordings and interpreters of Bach at the harpsichord I would cite Benjamin Alard as first. His partitas are wonderful and he will record the Goldbergs (as part of his Clavierübungs complete recording) in 2013.

Among others, Béatrice Martin has recorded very interesting concertos with his husband's ensemble (Les Folies françoises), and she plans to return to the Goldbergs at the end of this year, so let's hope she will record them as she's certainly one of the best harpsichordists today !
Bertrand Cuiller's recording of the concertos with his father Daniel are great too, he has played the Goldberg in concert recently too, I don't know if he plans to record them (probably not, as Mirare already has the Goldberg on piano with Zhu & on harpsichord with Hantaï).

Actually, I've been very disappointed by recent accounts of Bach works, from Rannou, Staier and others, who tend to forget a little the score and think too much about originality. Leonhardt frequently said that he did not interpret Bach, he played him. That's the kind of modesty and dedication I hear when Alard or Martin play.
Does Staier stray from the score on his Goldberg? I don't read music, but (comparing it to other Goldberg recordings) it doesn't sound that way. Rannou certainly adds ornamentation and, in the aria, maybe even something like improvisation. However, doesn't Hantai employ ornamentation also (Mirare)? ...for example, on the very first variation?   
 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 20, 2012, 05:33:57 AM
Quote from: Discobole on February 20, 2012, 04:29:44 AM
Right, my comment was a little too vague...
- About Staier, the main problem is the instrument. This enormous machine (on which Staier has recorded 3 CDs already, so he must love it) is monstruous, and Bach certainly never played on such a harpsichord, and never composed the Goldbergs for that kind of instrument. The music, played on this, is butchered, you can't even hear everything when he plays on some stops (the reverbaration adds to this blurry impression). Var. 25 in particular is really painful.

I agree with your comments about Staier's interpretation, but I think your statement regarding the instrument could be a bit excessive considering the historical information available. After all is a well known fact that German harpsichords tended to be quite more robust (both in sound and construction) than the contemporary Italian and French instruments. Additionally, Hyeronimus Albrecht Haas was a famous builder and exact contemporary of Bach and Bach was his entire life a man very interested in the technical aspects of his profession. BTW, IMO the principal problem with Staier's recording (beyond the interpretation) is the place where the microphones were put (very close to the instrument) and the reverberant venue.

P.S.: BTW, welcome aboard, Discobole!  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 20, 2012, 07:00:12 AM
Quote from: Discobole on February 20, 2012, 04:29:44 AM
Right, my comment was a little too vague...
- About Staier, the main problem is the instrument. This enormous machine (on which Staier has recorded 3 CDs already, so he must love it) is monstruous, and Bach certainly never played on such a harpsichord, and never composed the Goldbergs for that kind of instrument. The music, played on this, is butchered, you can't even hear everything when he plays on some stops (the reverbaration adds to this blurry impression). Var. 25 in particular is really painful.
- About Rannou, I think she goes too far in ornamentation, this is not ornamentation anymore as she sometimes doesn't even play the written notes but only notes around. But the real problem is that her ornamentation lacks imagination. She frequently plays intervals as scales (say from A to A she'll go A-B-C-D etc.), that is the lowest point in ornamentation, in my opinion. And the repetitions are only excuses to ornament again, differently, as if she could'nt choose in the end what was better. This is not what da capos are supposed to be, you should feel something being built, a musical speech.

Things are very different with great recordings, as by Leonhardt or Hantaï (even if I prefer the latter's first account) : ornamentation is imaginative but never against the score, the speech.
The record I like the most is probably one of the more ornamented, by Blandine Verlet (Astrée, 1991).
Thanks for explaining this. As far as I can follow your comments, I can see what you mean about Staier. I do like it and have spent a lot of time with it, but it is a bit of a mess sometimes. I wouldn't offer it to a friend as an introduction to the Goldbergs on Harpsichord as I do with Hantai. I'm still interested in what people think of the Rannou. I really enjoy it.  I always wonder if more musical knowledge will make me come to dislike music I now enjoy. There's someone who posted lengthy attacks on Shoonderwoerd's Beethoven cycle - recordings I really enjoy. I couldn't understand half of what they were saying. I kept thinking: maybe if I understood this I'd hate it as much as he/she does. This will sound goofy, but maybe it's my affinity for psychedelic music that makes me like the Staier.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 20, 2012, 07:07:59 AM
Quote from: Discobole on February 20, 2012, 04:29:44 AM
Right, my comment was a little too vague...
- About Staier, the main problem is the instrument. This enormous machine (on which Staier has recorded 3 CDs already, so he must love it) is monstruous, and Bach certainly never played on such a harpsichord, and never composed the Goldbergs for that kind of instrument. The music, played on this, is butchered, you can't even hear everything when he plays on some stops (the reverbaration adds to this blurry impression). Var. 25 in particular is really painful.
- About Rannou, I think she goes too far in ornamentation, this is not ornamentation anymore as she sometimes doesn't even play the written notes but only notes around. But the real problem is that her ornamentation lacks imagination. She frequently plays intervals as scales (say from A to A she'll go A-B-C-D etc.), that is the lowest point in ornamentation, in my opinion. And the repetitions are only excuses to ornament again, differently, as if she could'nt choose in the end what was better. This is not what da capos are supposed to be, you should feel something being built, a musical speech.

Things are very different with great recordings, as by Leonhardt or Hantaï (even if I prefer the latter's first account) : ornamentation is imaginative but never against the score, the speech.
The record I like the most is probably one of the more ornamented, by Blandine Verlet (Astrée, 1991).
There's something Hantai does on the first variation (Mirare) that blows me away every time I hear it. I have to go back and listen again to find out if I'm hearing it correctly. It's as if he fools the ears - that he suggests something that is somehow more than what he actually plays.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on February 20, 2012, 09:37:49 AM
Quote from: Discobole on February 20, 2012, 04:29:44 AM
- About Staier, the main problem is the instrument. This enormous machine (on which Staier has recorded 3 CDs already, so he must love it) is monstruous, and Bach certainly never played on such a harpsichord, and never composed the Goldbergs for that kind of instrument. -

You may be wrong. Quite another matter is whether we think the Goldberg´s are well served by this instrument or not.

Quote from: Discobole
About Rannou, I think she goes too far in ornamentation, this is not ornamentation anymore as she sometimes doesn't even play the written notes but only notes around. But the real problem is that her ornamentation lacks imagination. She frequently plays intervals as scales (say from A to A she'll go A-B-C-D etc.), that is the lowest point in ornamentation, in my opinion. And the repetitions are only excuses to ornament again, differently, as if she could'nt choose in the end what was better. This is not what da capos are supposed to be, you should feel something being built, a musical speech.-

I have not heard her Goldbergs. But I have enjoyed her French and particularly English suites. Do you think her ornamentation is overdone in these suites too?

And how do you think Koopman´s well known opulent ornamentation compares to Rannou´s ornamentation in her Goldbergs?


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leon on February 20, 2012, 10:06:28 AM
Lately I happened to acquire this recording:

[asin]B001UL3ZL4[/asin]

Isode Ahlgrimm: Die Kunst Der Fuge

I am still getting acquainted with it and have also read some reviews, but something strikes me as odd, a hesitant quality in her playing, about the recording for which I cannot put my finger on at the moment.  Maybe more listening will bring it into better focus.

I'd be curious to hear comments from the GMG community posting on this thread.

:)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 21, 2012, 03:50:14 PM
Quote from: Discobole on February 20, 2012, 04:29:44 AM
Right, my comment was a little too vague...
- About Staier, the main problem is the instrument. This enormous machine (on which Staier has recorded 3 CDs already, so he must love it) is monstruous, and Bach certainly never played on such a harpsichord, and never composed the Goldbergs for that kind of instrument. The music, played on this, is butchered, you can't even hear everything when he plays on some stops (the reverbaration adds to this blurry impression). Var. 25 in particular is really painful.
- About Rannou, I think she goes too far in ornamentation, this is not ornamentation anymore as she sometimes doesn't even play the written notes but only notes around. But the real problem is that her ornamentation lacks imagination. She frequently plays intervals as scales (say from A to A she'll go A-B-C-D etc.), that is the lowest point in ornamentation, in my opinion. And the repetitions are only excuses to ornament again, differently, as if she could'nt choose in the end what was better. This is not what da capos are supposed to be, you should feel something being built, a musical speech.

Things are very different with great recordings, as by Leonhardt or Hantaï (even if I prefer the latter's first account) : ornamentation is imaginative but never against the score, the speech.
The record I like the most is probably one of the more ornamented, by Blandine Verlet (Astrée, 1991).
I'm curious what you think of Suzuki's partitas.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 23, 2012, 05:23:32 AM
Quote from: Discobole on February 23, 2012, 04:50:22 AM
I just re-listened to the first partita by Suzuki, then by the (usual) standard reference Scott Ross (Erato), then in my favourite version by Gustav Leonhardt (EMI/Virgin), then by Suzuki again.

Suzuki's job is not bad at all, the sound is great, the harpsichord is beautiful, the playing (articulation, ornamentation) is good. But this version is still far inferior to the two others I've just heard too : as his conducting in his cantatas, Suzuki's playing is actually quite plain, not boring nor dull but flat. As I said, the ornamentation is simple, discreet, but the problem is not about quantity, it's about what it is used for : I don't hear Suzuki using ornamentation as part of the music, as a tool for reinforcing the speech. Listen to Ross, he ornaments even more than Suzuki, but how it is part of the musical flow is impressive.
So, behind a little ornamentation and some changes between keyboards and stops, Suzuki doesn't really sound interesting. The fact that he's slower than others might be a part of the problem too, but you can be slow and interesting, Suzuki is not only slow, he's quite mechanical... There is something very difficult to render in Bach (actually, I tend to believe that nobody mastered this as well as Leonhardt, until now), a sort of internal movement, which I can't find in Suzuki's recording.
Finally, I don't see any reason to play the repeats if the performer can't think of a way to make it interesting. In short, if you have nothing to say, say it just once ;D .

I'm quite sure a comparison between Suzuki and Alard or Weiss would bring me to the same conclusion.
Actually, I'm having a problem getting a hold of the Ross. So you recommend the Alard?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 23, 2012, 05:55:21 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 23, 2012, 05:48:34 AM
Whose? Ross'?

Alard.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on February 23, 2012, 07:42:25 AM
My Presto order arrived yesterday when I was at work, so I sat down this morning and listened to this, as there had been at least one request for a debriefing
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/zigzagzzt111001.jpg)

Sonics--high quality--Performance--generally inclined to the lyrical mode, but not afraid of peppy passages.  Sometimes odd rubato, etc. was invoked, however.  The music of the GVs is not imprinted on my aural memory to the point that I could pick out what she was or was not doing in regards to ornamentation.  Overall first impression was favorable, but I don't expect this one to be my desert island choice.

(Harpsichord performance I'm comparing this against, in order of preference:  Rousset, Staier, Egarr.  Rannou probably falls at the same level or slightly below Staier.)

(also posting this to the Goldberg Variations thread)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 28, 2012, 10:37:44 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 03, 2012, 06:25:35 AM
Watchorn's recording of the toccatas is jaw-dropping, though there is a bit much reverb. (I like my recordings to be as dry as Don does.)  Strongly recommended for anyone interested in those works.  It's the first time I've really been able to connect with some Bach works on harpsichord.  Any suggestions for a recording I should pair with it?

Agreed totally and in bwv 912 especially. There's another recording of that Toccata by Blandine Verlet, on a Philips LP and never as far as I know on CD, which I also like. But I much prefer Watchorn's. One of the many things  I like about Watchorn's  is that it's not fast and furious: he takes the time to get to the feeling in the music. And that it sounds spontaneous.

The Verlet has been transferred by an amateur here. It's in Volume 2 there -- even though it's not mentioned in the blog. It's well worth hearing (I haven't heard her second record of it, but would like to)

http://takecare-maready.blogspot.com/2010/12/toccatas-of-js-bach-blandine-verlet.html

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 28, 2012, 05:43:02 PM
Quote from: Discobole on February 23, 2012, 04:50:22 AM
I just re-listened to the first partita by Suzuki, then by the (usual) standard reference Scott Ross (Erato), then in my favourite version by Gustav Leonhardt (EMI/Virgin), then by Suzuki again.

Suzuki's job is not bad at all, the sound is great, the harpsichord is beautiful, the playing (articulation, ornamentation) is good. But this version is still far inferior to the two others I've just heard too : as his conducting in his cantatas, Suzuki's playing is actually quite plain, not boring nor dull but flat. As I said, the ornamentation is simple, discreet, but the problem is not about quantity, it's about what it is used for : I don't hear Suzuki using ornamentation as part of the music, as a tool for reinforcing the speech. Listen to Ross, he ornaments even more than Suzuki, but how it is part of the musical flow is impressive.
So, behind a little ornamentation and some changes between keyboards and stops, Suzuki doesn't really sound interesting. The fact that he's slower than others might be a part of the problem too, but you can be slow and interesting, Suzuki is not only slow, he's quite mechanical... There is something very difficult to render in Bach (actually, I tend to believe that nobody mastered this as well as Leonhardt, until now), a sort of internal movement, which I can't find in Suzuki's recording.
Finally, I don't see any reason to play the repeats if the performer can't think of a way to make it interesting. In short, if you have nothing to say, say it just once ;D .

I'm quite sure a comparison between Suzuki and Alard or Weiss would bring me to the same conclusion.
I think I understand what you mean about "internal movement." It seems to me that Ross and Leonhardt have something in common but I can't say what that is.
It's intangible to me at the moment. I'm wondering who your favorite performers of the French Suites are seeing as the music is so different. What is it that's needed to bring alive the dances in the French and who succeeds?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on February 28, 2012, 09:24:39 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 28, 2012, 10:37:44 AM
Agreed totally and in bwv 912 especially. There's another recording of that Toccata by Blandine Verlet, on a Philips LP and never as far as I know on CD, which I also like. But I much prefer Watchorn's. One of the many things  I like about Watchorn's  is that it's not fast and furious: he takes the time to get to the feeling in the music. And that it sounds spontaneous.

The Verlet has been transferred by an amateur here. It's in Volume 2 there -- even though it's not mentioned in the blog. It's well worth hearing (I haven't heard her second record of it, but would like to)

http://takecare-maready.blogspot.com/2010/12/toccatas-of-js-bach-blandine-verlet.html

If you are talking about Watchorn Toccatas on Haenssler - I got it at Don's (bulldog) recommendation. And it is quite good, but still left me unsatisfied. I think it is too rigid and a tad unimaginative. I found that Leon Berben Toccatas' set on Ramee (a 2CDset with the Toccatas for organ & harpsichord) surpasses it in quite comfortably in those respects, without lacking intellectual rigour. But Berben is (a.o.) a Koopman student and you can kind of tell, so maybe not to everyone's taste... (ornamentation!) I did an on line comparative listening at the time, and 2nd came Van Asperen's Teldec recording (slightly ahead of his EMI) I'd love to have that one as well. The Fanfare reviewer (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=308024) has slight issues with Berben's harpsichord Toccatas and prefers Colin Tilney!

(http://www.outhere-music.com/data/cds/2184/BIG.JPG)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Scion7 on February 28, 2012, 11:31:58 PM
I have the French & English Suites (complete) on vinyl (MHS) by Zuzana Ruzicková:

(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/4299/bachfrenchsuitesruzicko.jpg)

These were recorded circa 1967 - released initially on Erato, Suraphon.

Until this morning, I really had not read much about her - the MHS notes only had a perfunctory mention, concentrating on the history of the Suites. 
There was more info on another MHS release I have of her doing various BACH pieces - the Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue, the Toccata and Fugue in c, etc.

She's 83+ yrs old now, but has quite a history:

Zuzana Ruzickova was born on 14 January 1927 in the city of Plzen in western Bohemia. Her musical ability and predilection for Bach were apparent from an early age, and she prepared for admission to Wanda Landowska's classes at Saint-Leu-la-Forêt near Paris. The opportunity to study abroad soon became an impossibility with the German occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1938, and in January 1942 she and her family were interred at the Terezin ghetto. After the death of her father and grandparents at Terezin, she was sent to Aushwitz along with her mother. In 1944 they were both sent to Hamburg as forced laborers, and later spent the final days of the war interred at the Bergen-Belson concentration camp. Upon her recovery she was determined to resume her musical education and studied piano with Bohdan Gsölhofer in Plzen. From 1947-51 she attended the Academy of Performing Arts in Prague where her professors included pianists Albín Síma, Frantisek Rauch and harpsichordist Oldrich Kredba. At this time she decided to specialize in the interpretation of early music and gave her first harpsichord recital in 1951. In 1956 she won the International Music Competition in Munich and accepted a scholarship from jury member Marguerite Roesgen-Champion to continue her harpsichord studies in Paris.
Her success at the Munich competition marked the beginning of an international career. Since that time she has performed regularly throughout Europe and has made repeated visits to Japan and the United States. She has performed at Bach Festivals in Leipzig, Stuttgart, Heidelberg, Ansbach, Frankfurt, Schaffhausen, Bath and Oregon. In 1962 she co-founded the Prague Chamber Soloists with conductor Václav Neumann and in 1963 she formed a very successful duo with violinist Josef Suk. Other chamber music partners have included János Starker, Pierre Fournier, Jean-Pierre Rampal, Aurèle Nicolet and Maxence Larrieu. She has also worked with noted conductors including Serge Baudo, Paul Sacher, Herbert Blomstedt, Libor Pe?ek, Neville Marriner and Helmut Rilling. Her recorded repertoire is vast, spanning works from the English virginalists through those by modern composers such as Martin?, Poulenc, Falla and Frank Martin. The music of Bach, however, has always remained central to her art, culminating in an integral edition of his solo harpsichord works published by the French label Erato in 1975. Contemporary composers have also dedicated works to her, including Jan Rychlík's Hommagi clavicembalistici (1964), and she has premiered works by Emil Hlobil, Hans-Georg Görner and Elizabeth Maconchy. For 54 years she was married to the outstanding composer Viktor Kalabis (1923-2006), and she inspired him to compose several significant works for harpsichord: Six Two-Part Canonic Inventions (1962), Aquarelles (1979), Preludio, Aria e Toccata (1992), and the magnificent Concerto for Harpsichord and Strings (1975). Her career as an educator began at the Academy of Performing Arts in 1951, but only after the fall of communism was she finally given the title professor in 1990. She also established a harpsichord class at the Music Academy in Bratislava where she was guest professor from 1978-82. For twenty-five years she gave master classes in Zürich, with other classes taking place in Stuttgart, Kraków, Budapest, Riga and Tokyo. Her many students include Jaroslav T?ma, Giedré Luk?aité-Mrázková, Anikó Horváth, Borbála Dobozy, Sylvia Georgieva and Monika Knoblochová.
Today she is retired from performing and teaching but is still very active in Czech musical life. She is president of a foundation to promote the work of her husband Viktor Kalabis and serves as vice-president for the Prague Spring International Competition Committee. She is also on the advisory boards of the Czech Chamber Music Society and the Concertino Praga International Competition. She has not forgotten her experiences during the war and actively supports the Hans Krása Initiative, and as a participant in the Terezin Initiative, she often speaks about her experiences. She was also instrumental in establishing a memorial for Freddy Hirsch, a young man responsible for saving the lives of countless children at Terezin and Aushwitz.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 29, 2012, 08:17:52 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41lNqTa01fL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

When it comes to Bach, Olivier Baumont has made a career out of playing programs that consist primarily of early works and focus on bringing out the beauty and profundity in what might otherwise be considered non-essential repertoire.  (His recording of the French Suites is a notable exception.)  He does the same here, bringing out wonderful, unexpected qualities in four relatively 'minor' harpsichord suites.  This recording – like all of his Bach that I've heard -- is love at first listen.

Most of it, at least.  Recordings on clavichord of a few preludes from the WTC and a set of three minuets are interspersed with the material for harpsichord and I do not find them particularly impressive.   When it comes to the harpsichord suites, however, Baumont is well...Baumont.  He knows how to be a speed demon when necessary, also manages to moderate tempos when needed without the performance coming across as merely 'middle of the road', and most of all he dances.  I cannot think of any other harpsichordist that manages to generate such a well-flowing rhythm and make it sound like such an easy task.

As I stated earlier, I am not as impressed by the pieces on clavichord.  At this point I'm unable to come to like the clavichord's spongy tone and this recording is of no assistance to me in this matter.  In addition to the spongy tone that seems to be a characteristic of the clavichord this instrument is rather bland and colorless.  The clavichord pieces being juxtaposed directly with the harpsichord suites only serve to make the contrast between the instruments stronger.   As a result of this, I had a difficult time focusing on his interpretation.  That said, in spite of the failings of the clavichord this recording was love at first listen and I highly recommend it for the harpsichord suites, if nothing else.  Given that it can be had for under $7 shipped off the marketplace, there's no reason not to get it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 29, 2012, 09:07:48 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 29, 2012, 08:17:52 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41lNqTa01fL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

When it comes to Bach, Olivier Baumont has made a career out of playing programs that consist primarily of early works and focus on bringing out the beauty and profundity in what might otherwise be considered non-essential repertoire.  (His recording of the French Suites is a notable exception.)  He does the same here, bringing out wonderful, unexpected qualities in four relatively 'minor' harpsichord suites.  This recording – like all of his Bach that I've heard -- is love at first listen.

Most of it, at least.  Recordings on clavichord of a few preludes from the WTC and a set of three minuets are interspersed with the material for harpsichord and I do not find them particularly impressive.   When it comes to the harpsichord suites, however, Baumont is well...Baumont.  He knows how to be a speed demon when necessary, also manages to moderate tempos when needed without the performance coming across as merely 'middle of the road', and most of all he dances.  I cannot think of any other harpsichordist that manages to generate such a well-flowing rhythm and make it sound like such an easy task.

As I stated earlier, I am not as impressed by the pieces on clavichord.  At this point I'm unable to come to like the clavichord's spongy tone and this recording is of no assistance to me in this matter.  In addition to the spongy tone that seems to be a characteristic of the clavichord this instrument is rather bland and colorless.  The clavichord pieces being juxtaposed directly with the harpsichord suites only serve to make the contrast between the instruments stronger.   As a result of this, I had a difficult time focusing on his interpretation.  That said, in spite of the failings of the clavichord this recording was love at first listen and I highly recommend it for the harpsichord suites, if nothing else.  Given that it can be had for under $7 shipped off the marketplace, there's no reason not to get it.
I wonder what you think of Levin's WTC sets. He mixes it up between harpsichords, clavichord, fortepiano and organ. Wonderful recordings!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 29, 2012, 10:25:41 AM
Quote from: milk on February 29, 2012, 09:07:48 AM
I wonder what you think of Levin's WTC sets. He mixes it up between harpsichords, clavichord, fortepiano and organ. Wonderful recordings!

That was also something that Chorzempa did -- in a recording I have never been able to find at a price I can afford.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on February 29, 2012, 12:49:13 PM
Quote from: milk on February 29, 2012, 09:07:48 AM
I wonder what you think of Levin's WTC sets. He mixes it up between harpsichords, clavichord, fortepiano and organ. Wonderful recordings!

Sounds like a bit of an odd duck recording to me, but I'll put it on the wish list.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on March 02, 2012, 03:24:05 PM
In a bit of an embarrassing moment today, I accidentally threw on Rannou's second disc of French Suites by mistake due to not paying enough attention to the track listing or disc.  I meant to grab the second disc of the English Suites.  It was a bit embarrassing because I was two-thirds of the way through the disc before realizing it. :-\  (In my defense, I'm not intimately familiar with either the English or French Suites.)  I was wondering why the hell the English Suites suddenly sounded more streamlined and less complex...

In any case, I admit to this because the accident allowed me to make a couple of unbiased observations:  First, I did find myself agreeing with Bulldog that she tends to be a bit shallow in the slow movements.  I can't describe it exactly...it just feels like there's something there in those slow movements that she's just not allowing the listener (me, at least) to connect with.  I found her excellent in the fast movements, but the harpsichord is just a bit on the bright side for my tastes.  I still enjoy the recordings (I greatly enjoyed the first disc of the English Suites) but it's difficult to listen straight through to the end.  I'll probably adjust to it in time, though.  I hope so at least, this seems like a great box and I think I'll get many hours of enjoyment out of it.

In any case, further listening will be needed, but I don't think she'll be overthrowing Baumont as my favorite in the French Suites.  I definitely need to hear the Cates recording, though.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on March 02, 2012, 03:29:01 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on March 02, 2012, 03:24:05 PM
In any case, I admit to this because the accident allowed me to make a couple of unbiased observations:  First, I did find myself agreeing with Bulldog that she tends to be a bit shallow in the slow movements.  I can't describe it exactly...it just feels like there's something there in those slow movements that she's just not allowing the listener (me, at least) to connect with.  I found her excellent in the fast movements, but the harpsichord is just a bit on the bright side for my tastes.  I still enjoy the recordings (I greatly enjoyed the first disc of the English Suites) but it's difficult to listen straight through to the end.  I'll probably adjust to it in time, though.  I hope so at least, this seems like a great box and I think I'll get many hours of enjoyment out of it.

In any case, further listening will be needed, but I don't think she'll be overthrowing Baumont as my favorite in the French Suites.  I definitely need to hear the Cates recording, though.

And don't forget the Alan Curtis set.  Actually, it's not a set, but three separate discs that also include all the English Suites.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on March 02, 2012, 03:37:32 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 02, 2012, 03:29:01 PM
And don't forget the Alan Curtis set.  Actually, it's not a set, but three separate discs that also include all the English Suites.

I have all three parts of the Curtis 'set.'  Unfortunately, I'm still working on adjusting to the sound of the harpsichord, so I can't judge the quality of the interpretation yet.  That may sound strange, but once in a while I run across a harpsichord recording with a sound that doesn't quite click with me for reasons I can't put my finger on.  The Curtis recordings are one of those, Suzuki's recordings of the Partitas are another.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on March 02, 2012, 09:17:50 PM
Yes I must say I listened to a few of the Sarabandes after Bulldog made that remark, and coincidentally I also listened to the same music played by Curtis, just for the contrast. I think I feel the same as many others here: there is something missing in  the Rannou though I haven't tried to formulate exactly what.

Listing again to Curtis was a real joy. It's well worth hearing his French Suites IMO.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on March 03, 2012, 05:56:49 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on March 02, 2012, 03:37:32 PM
I have all three parts of the Curtis 'set.'  Unfortunately, I'm still working on adjusting to the sound of the harpsichord, so I can't judge the quality of the interpretation yet.  That may sound strange, but once in a while I run across a harpsichord recording with a sound that doesn't quite click with me for reasons I can't put my finger on.  The Curtis recordings are one of those, Suzuki's recordings of the Partitas are another.
I'm having the same issue with the Curtis - not just the harpsichord, but the overall production. But perhaps giving it a little time will help.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on March 03, 2012, 05:58:39 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 02, 2012, 09:17:50 PM
Yes I must say I listened to a few of the Sarabandes after Bulldog made that remark, and coincidentally I also listened to the same music played by Curtis, just for the contrast. I think I feel the same as many others here: there is something missing in  the Rannou though I haven't tried to formulate exactly what.

Listing again to Curtis was a real joy. It's well worth hearing his French Suites IMO.
Do you think her English Suites are more successful or suffer from the same problem?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on March 03, 2012, 06:01:43 AM
Quote from: milk on March 03, 2012, 05:56:49 AM
I'm having the same issue with the Curtis - not just the harpsichord, but the overall production. But perhaps giving it a little time will help.

It's good to know that I'm not alone here.  Yes, we should definitely give those discs some time.


Thread duty:

I will strongly recommend -- again -- that people check out the budget-priced (on the MP) Baumont recording of the French Suites.  It is excellent.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on March 03, 2012, 06:41:31 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on March 03, 2012, 06:01:43 AM
Thread duty:

I will strongly recommend -- again -- that people check out the budget-priced (on the MP) Baumont recording of the French Suites.  It is excellent.

Thanks for that recommend, I'll definitely have to hear that recording. I've been listening to Baumont's various recordings of french harpischord masters and I'm stunned by what I hear!

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on March 03, 2012, 07:02:08 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 03, 2012, 06:41:31 AM
Thanks for that recommend, I'll definitely have to hear that recording. I've been listening to Baumont's various recordings of french harpischord masters and I'm stunned by what I hear!

Indeed.  Baumont is also a brilliant Bach player.  He has three (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Concertos-After-Vivaldi/dp/B00277YJL0/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1330790007&sr=1-2) recordings (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-4-Harpsichord-Suites/dp/B00277YJLK/ref=sr_1_12?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1330790007&sr=1-12) out (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-6-French-Suites/dp/B0037W391K/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1330790007&sr=1-6), and all of them are worth checking out, but you may as well start with the French Suites since they're the most substantial piece of repertoire he has recorded.  Can't go wrong with a set of French Suites for $7, either!

[asin]B0037W391K[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Kontrapunctus on March 03, 2012, 08:39:24 AM
I enjoy this SACD of the English Suites played by Olga Martynova. Beautiful playing and rich, warm sound. (Caro Mitis is a Russian audiophile label.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Z1fiwT9nL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on March 03, 2012, 08:49:12 AM
Quote from: milk on March 03, 2012, 05:56:49 AM
I'm having the same issue with the Curtis - not just the harpsichord, but the overall production. But perhaps giving it a little time will help.

I'm surprised that a few of you are finding this problem.  From the first time I listened to the Curtis set, it was immediate appreciation.

For me, it's sets from Rannou and Rousset (Ambroise) that are problematic concerning the productions.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on March 03, 2012, 09:44:48 AM
What do you mean by production?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on March 03, 2012, 10:22:37 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 03, 2012, 09:44:48 AM
What do you mean by production?

I think he is referring to the recording quality, such as the generous reverb on the Rousett recording?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on March 03, 2012, 10:47:52 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 03, 2012, 10:22:37 AM
I think he is referring to the recording quality, such as the generous reverb on the Rousett recording?

Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to.  I used the word "production" because others had previously used it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on March 03, 2012, 05:34:06 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on March 03, 2012, 07:02:08 AM
Indeed.  Baumont is also a brilliant Bach player.  He has three (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Concertos-After-Vivaldi/dp/B00277YJL0/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1330790007&sr=1-2) recordings (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-4-Harpsichord-Suites/dp/B00277YJLK/ref=sr_1_12?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1330790007&sr=1-12) out (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-6-French-Suites/dp/B0037W391K/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1330790007&sr=1-6), and all of them are worth checking out, but you may as well start with the French Suites since they're the most substantial piece of repertoire he has recorded.  Can't go wrong with a set of French Suites for $7, either!

[asin]B0037W391K[/asin]

Okay, you twisted my arm....just ordered the French Suites.  Which will go along with my order this weekend from Arkivmusic, for Curtis's French Suites.  (I hope.  One of the three CDs is labelled as "low stock".)  For some reason they don't have his English Suites, so I'll need to go looking elsewhere for those.
But now I'll have a double dose of the Frenches!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on March 03, 2012, 08:00:55 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 03, 2012, 05:34:06 PM
Okay, you twisted my arm....just ordered the French Suites.  Which will go along with my order this weekend from Arkivmusic, for Curtis's French Suites.  (I hope.  One of the three CDs is labelled as "low stock".)  For some reason they don't have his English Suites, so I'll need to go looking elsewhere for those.
But now I'll have a double dose of the Frenches!
If you're getting three CDs worth of Curtis, you're almost certainly getting both the English and French suites. They're distributed two English and two French per disc... I hope you enjoy these recordings as much as I do!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on March 04, 2012, 04:01:32 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 03, 2012, 08:49:12 AM
I'm surprised that a few of you are finding this problem.  From the first time I listened to the Curtis set, it was immediate appreciation.

For me, it's sets from Rannou and Rousset (Ambroise) that are problematic concerning the productions.
This is subjective I suppose. I love the sound of Rannou's harpsichords on her recordings - although I prefer her English Suites to her French Suites. To me, Curtis's instrument sounds a little dark and flat. But I'm also not enamored with Cates's harpsichord. I tend to like the French Suites on delicate sounding instruments. This may be the influence of the recordings by Van Asperen and Brookshire, on which "plucky" sounding Vaters are used (Watchorn used one also - though I haven't been drawn into his recording). This is not to say that I know anything about harpsichords, I do not. Anyway, I keep trying with recordings to see if I can break through my initial displeasure. In the beginning, I had trouble with the dark sounding instrument on Mortenen's partitas. After a while, I really came to love the performance and appreciate the sound quality.       
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on March 04, 2012, 08:40:01 AM
In the sarabandes of the French Suites  Rannou for me is sensual and smooth.   I find the experience with with her much more soothing than with Curtis.

This is mainly because Curtis brings in more  texture contrasts, I think, which makes the music more disturbing for me -- more attention grabbing. I guess tempo choices must have something to do with it too, just because Curtis is so energetic.

I actually think this slick soothing side to the Rannou sarabandes is  enough to make her performances of them shallower, even though I enjoy wallowing in the music that she makes. I like letting it wash over me sometimes. I can't do that with Curtis's sarabandes!

Prima facie there's a similarity  between Rannou's Bach and Affanassiev's Schubert.  I see both of them as experimenting: seeing what happens if you push slow tempos  to the max.  With Afanassiev part of the pleasure of listening is to experience the near miracle of how he can play so slowly and yet the music doesn't fall apart -- the whole thing stays coherent. Same, I would say, for the opening aria in Rannou's Goldbergs.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on March 21, 2012, 11:56:09 PM
Though I got this a few months ago, I trying to catch up in my write ups. And upon listening to it this morning, I thought a short note was in order! :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/315acTU2%2BvL.jpg)

I've never heard a livelier, more articulated and pronounced, dramatic even, version than this. If you like to hear the antidote to the dreamy, legato-played versions, this is it. Bonizzoni uses every technique in the book to make the journey through these variations as varied, engaging and exhilarating as possible: separation between the hands, not only in tempo but also character, ample use of agogics, using the contrast between the two registers on the double manual harpsichord built by Willem Kroesbergen. His technique is brilliant and his playing is swift in the faster mvts. The sound stage is rich, but not overbearing - though with this kind of playing there is a lot to take in. 8)

I have to admit I passed his recording over before when sampling on-line - it came across as unsteady and erratic, which is not suprising given his approach. Only in the longer run and with familiarity with this iconic music, Bonizzoni's portrayal of it will click. This might be an acquired taste, for many this will simply be too much. But I love it, it has that exhilaration and intellectual rigour of Scott Ross (as a harpsichordist not his Goldbergs) or Enrico Baiano.
Speaking of Italians, how does it compare to Ottavio Dantone (Decca, Italy-only issue). Well, Dantone matches Bonizzoni freedom in playing but his approach is more relaxed and focuses on ornamentation and has a more gentle, sweet feel to it.

This recording is undeservedly very little reviewed. But Amazon's Giordano Bruno did and his review (http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Variations-Johann-Sebastian/product-reviews/B0009VNCI2/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1) is a pleasure to read. I agree with it, even with the one tiny fault he could find: Bonizzoni should have played the final da capo with more weight and introspection, now it is just a nice frill to finish off.

Anyway - for those Bachians that like to live on the wild side - strongly recommended! :o :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on March 22, 2012, 12:17:51 AM
Another thing: upon reading this thread I noticed there is still a lot of talk about Blandine Rannou's Bach. Intrigued (might I have been mistaken before?) I looked into her Bach (again). The conclusion is the same as it was before: it's attractive sounding, easy-to-get-into but essentially unidiomatic Bach. The rhythmic treatement, phrasing and ornamentation, it's all somewhat "off", it also is too (emotionally) superficial for me. Her countrymen Baumont and Rousset have a better knack for Bach IMO.

If you want to hear something really awesome by Blandine? :o Try her complete Rameau set (Zig-Zag) - amazing, sans pareil! :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on March 22, 2012, 07:52:41 AM
Quote from: Que on March 22, 2012, 12:17:51 AM
Another thing: upon reading this thread I noticed there is still a lot of talk about Blandine Rannou's Bach. Intrigued (might I have been mistaken before?) I looked into her Bach (again). The conclusion is the same as it was before: it's attractive sounding, easy-to-get-into but essentially unidiomatic Bach. The rhythmic treatement, phrasing and ornamentation, it's all somewhat "off", it also is too (emotionally) superficial for me. Her countrymen Baumont and Rousset have a better knack for Bach IMO.

If you want to hear something really awesome by Blandine? :o Try her complete Rameau set (Zig-Zag) - amazing, sans pareil! :)

Q

Which Rannou were you listening to?  I think you describe her Goldbergs perfectly, but I found her English/French Suites (and Toccatas) much better.
Quote from: Que on March 21, 2012, 11:56:09 PM

Speaking of Italians, how does it compare to Ottavio Dantone (Decca, Italy-only issue). Well, Dantone matches Bonizzoni freedom in playing but his approach is more relaxed and focuses on ornamentation and has a more gentile, sweet feel to it.


Q

So Bonizzoni is a Yiddishe Goldberg?  That makes ordering it mandatory.  ;D

Seriously, though, I'm ordering it in another tab of this browser as I type this.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on March 22, 2012, 08:01:05 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 22, 2012, 07:52:41 AM
Which Rannou were you listening to?  I think you describe her Goldbergs perfectly, but I found her English/French Suites (and Toccatas) much better.

Actually haven't heard hear Golbergs. The suites in particular. I think her Toccatas are the best Bach I've heard by her.

QuoteSo Bonizzoni is a Yiddishe Goldberg?  That makes ordering it mandatory.  ;D

Oops. ;D

QuoteSeriously, though, I'm ordering it in another tab of this browser as I type this.

Good! :D I'm curious what you'll make of it - it's a love or hate kind of recording.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on March 22, 2012, 08:06:53 AM
Quote from: Que on March 21, 2012, 11:56:09 PM
Though I got this a few months ago, I trying to catch up in my write ups. And upon listening to it this morning, I thought a short note was in order! :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/315acTU2%2BvL.jpg)

I've never heard a livelier, more articulated and pronounced, dramatic even, version than this. If you like to hear the antidote to the dreamy, legato-played versions, this is it. Bonizzoni uses every technique in the book to make the journey through these variations as varied, engaging and exhilarating as possible: separation between the hands, not only in tempo but also character, ample use of agogics, using the contrast between the two registers on the double manual harpsichord built by Willem Kroesbergen. His technique is brilliant and his playing is swift in the faster mvts. The sound stage is rich, but not overbearing - though with this kind of playing there is a lot to take in. 8)

I have to admit I passed his recording over before when sampling on-line - it came across as unsteady and erratic, which is not suprising given his approach. Only in the longer run and with familiarity with this iconic music, Bonizzoni's portrayal of it will click. This might be an acquired taste, for many this will simply be too much. But I love it, it has that exhilaration and intellectual rigour of Scott Ross (as a harpsichordist not his Goldbergs) or Enrico Baiano.
Speaking of Italians, how does it compare to Ottavio Dantone (Decca, Italy-only issue). Well, Dantone matches Bonizzoni freedom in playing but his approach is more relaxed and focuses on ornamentation and has a more gentile, sweet feel to it.

This recording is undeservedly very little reviewed. But Amazon's Giordano Bruno did and his review (http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Variations-Johann-Sebastian/product-reviews/B0009VNCI2/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1) is a pleasure to read. I agree with it, even with the one tiny fault he could find: Bonizzoni should have played the final da capo with more weight and introspection, now it is just a nice frill to finish off.

Anyway - for those Bachians that like to live on the wild side - strongly recommended! :o :)

Q
Does Van Asperen fit the bill as a non-legato-played version of the Goldbergs? I'm trying to get a handle on the technical descriptions for what it is I hear.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on March 22, 2012, 08:25:22 AM
Quote from: milk on March 22, 2012, 08:06:53 AM
Does Van Asperen fit the bill as a non-legato-played version of the Goldbergs? I'm trying to get a handle on the technical descriptions for what it is I hear.

Perhaps, or rather probably  ::), I'm in the wrong here in using the term in this context. Sorry. What I meant was a strict-tempo approach without any use of hesitations or emphasis. Of which Bonizzoni is the opposite.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on March 22, 2012, 08:57:07 AM
Quote from: Que on March 22, 2012, 08:25:22 AM
Perhaps, or rather probably  ::), I'm in the wrong here in using the term in this context. Sorry. What I meant was a strict-tempo approach without any use of hesitations or emphasis. Of which Bonizzoni is the opposite.

Q
Sigh. I guess I'll have to check it out. More money out of my wallet! My opinions really ping-pong around as I read and listen more.
I guess Bonizzoni is next.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on March 22, 2012, 09:39:24 AM
Quote from: Que on March 21, 2012, 11:56:09 PM
Though I got this a few months ago, I trying to catch up in my write ups. And upon listening to it this morning, I thought a short note was in order! :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/315acTU2%2BvL.jpg)

I've never heard a livelier, more articulated and pronounced, dramatic even, version than this. If you like to hear the antidote to the dreamy, legato-played versions, this is it. Bonizzoni uses every technique in the book to make the journey through these variations as varied, engaging and exhilarating as possible: separation between the hands, not only in tempo but also character, ample use of agogics, using the contrast between the two registers on the double manual harpsichord built by Willem Kroesbergen. His technique is brilliant and his playing is swift in the faster mvts. The sound stage is rich, but not overbearing - though with this kind of playing there is a lot to take in. 8)

I have to admit I passed his recording over before when sampling on-line - it came across as unsteady and erratic, which is not suprising given his approach. Only in the longer run and with familiarity with this iconic music, Bonizzoni's portrayal of it will click. This might be an acquired taste, for many this will simply be too much. But I love it, it has that exhilaration and intellectual rigour of Scott Ross (as a harpsichordist not his Goldbergs) or Enrico Baiano.
Speaking of Italians, how does it compare to Ottavio Dantone (Decca, Italy-only issue). Well, Dantone matches Bonizzoni freedom in playing but his approach is more relaxed and focuses on ornamentation and has a more gentle, sweet feel to it.

This recording is undeservedly very little reviewed. But Amazon's Giordano Bruno did and his review (http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Variations-Johann-Sebastian/product-reviews/B0009VNCI2/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1) is a pleasure to read. I agree with it, even with the one tiny fault he could find: Bonizzoni should have played the final da capo with more weight and introspection, now it is just a nice frill to finish off.

Anyway - for those Bachians that like to live on the wild side - strongly recommended! :o :)

Q

I largely share your views of the Bonizzoni Goldbergs.  It is certainly an antidote to legato-driven interpretations as if Bonizzoni is saying to the legato/piano crowd - Take that, you whimps!

Concerning the Dantone recording, I do feel that Dantone offers more angst in the slower and darker variations.  On the other hand, Dantone's highly ornamented repeats with a trill-happy attitude have my respect but not my affection.  Regardless, I consider both Dantone and Bonizzoni must-haves for the repertoire.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on March 22, 2012, 11:15:58 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 22, 2012, 09:39:24 AM
I largely share your views of the Bonizzoni Goldbergs.  It is certainly an antidote to legato-driven interpretations as if Bonizzoni is saying to the legato/piano crowd - Take that, you whimps!

Concerning the Dantone recording, I do feel that Dantone offers more angst in the slower and darker variations.  On the other hand, Dantone's highly ornamented repeats with a trill-happy attitude have my respect but not my affection.  Regardless, I consider both Dantone and Bonizzoni must-haves for the repertoire.

Thanks for the tip. It's on its way.  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on March 22, 2012, 11:17:46 PM
Don, great to hear your perspective! :) And you are one of the few I can compare notes with on the Dantone. 8)

Anyway, just making note that a blind comparison of the harpsichord Toccata BWV 914 has just been initiated. Giving the attention these Toccatas have attracted on this thread before, I'm sure there is considerable interest to participate. More info HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20245.0.html).

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Bulldog on March 23, 2012, 12:07:48 AM
Quote from: Que on March 22, 2012, 11:17:46 PM
Don, great to hear your perspective! :) And you are one of the few I can compare notes with on the Dantone. 8)

Q

I was lucky to pick up the Dantone at a record shop in Rome three years ago on our European vacation.  8)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on May 25, 2012, 06:54:54 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 16, 2011, 09:02:03 AM
The reason why I do not mention it much is, that I find it less inspired than we are used to, when it is about Leonhardt. It is a pity, that f.i. Alpha didn´t offer him the chance to rerecord these suites.
I see there is a new release of this. I trust what you've said but still...I'm curious.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519O0mvpRWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on May 25, 2012, 08:21:38 AM
Quote from: milk on May 25, 2012, 06:54:54 AM
I see there is a new release of this. I trust what you've said but still...I'm curious.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519O0mvpRWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have it, and although I'm not a Leonhardt maven,  the only defect I found was--there should have been more!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 25, 2012, 11:51:30 AM
He recorded the second French Suite twice in fact, once in 1975 (that's part o the set of all 6), and once in 1990 (I think),  on a clavichord.

The 1990 one is phrased differently I think, in the Allemende, Sarabande and Menuet  the articulation is less lyrical, the phrases less long.

There's also a record of the Allemande from the the first suite on his Anna Magdalena Notebook CD -- I think it's more refined than the performance in the 1975 set.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on May 25, 2012, 04:17:18 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 25, 2012, 08:21:38 AM
I have it, and although I'm not a Leonhardt maven,  the only defect I found was--there should have been more!
Well, I've just ordered it. Thanks.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on May 25, 2012, 04:19:02 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 25, 2012, 08:21:38 AM
I have it, and although I'm not a Leonhardt maven,  the only defect I found was--there should have been more!
Thanks. I just ordered this.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on June 08, 2012, 07:38:18 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 25, 2012, 08:21:38 AM
I have it, and although I'm not a Leonhardt maven,  the only defect I found was--there should have been more!
I've acquired this disc. I'm enjoying it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on June 08, 2012, 08:59:17 AM
Quote from: milk on June 08, 2012, 07:38:18 AM
I've acquired this disc. I'm enjoying it.
I've spent a little time doing some comparison tonight with this recording. It's nice to finally get Leonhardt's take on the French Suites.
For me, Van Asperen is pleasure. His instrument is incredible - as I've said before. It's a brilliant recording and his performance is utterly charming. Leonhardt is certainly great. He does bring that sense of natural momentum and detail as always. Moroney has a lot of gravitas and brings out the counterpoint. Brookshire is eccentric, maybe too much so - although he's never boring and the instrument and sound is delicious. Curtis still doesn't quite get to me. I'm not always convinced by his pace and hesitations. Rannou is full of verve and has some nice ornamentation - although sometimes the ornamentation feels planned and detracts from the naturalness of the music. I've lost interest in Cates - although that's just my subjective reaction and may have something to do with the sound of the instrument. Maybe I'm repeating myself from earlier posts but my favorite is Van Asperen. Leonhardt and Moroney are also great. The others are a notch below for me.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Sammy on June 08, 2012, 09:36:00 AM
Quote from: milk on June 08, 2012, 08:59:17 AM
Curtis still doesn't quite get to me. I'm not always convinced by his pace and hesitations. Rannou is full of verve and has some nice ornamentation - although sometimes the ornamentation feels planned and detracts from the naturalness of the music. I've lost interest in Cates - although that's just my subjective reaction and may have something to do with the sound of the instrument.

Since Curtis and Cates are all about hesitations and staggering of musical lines in the French Suites, I'll try to keep that in mind if I'm ever in the position of giving you recommendations on Bach solo keyboard works.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on June 08, 2012, 06:10:23 PM
Quote from: Sammy on June 08, 2012, 09:36:00 AM
Since Curtis and Cates are all about hesitations and staggering of musical lines in the French Suites, I'll try to keep that in mind if I'm ever in the position of giving you recommendations on Bach solo keyboard works.
But I still may come around. I have moments where I like Curtis. I don't trust that I really know what's going on. I just gave my late-night impressions. It seems like Brookshire does a lot of this staggering of musical lines? To an excess? Sometimes I like to put on the Brookshire. He's intense - as it were.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Sammy on June 08, 2012, 07:45:01 PM
Quote from: milk on June 08, 2012, 06:10:23 PM
But I still may come around. I have moments where I like Curtis. I don't trust that I really know what's going on. I just gave my late-night impressions. It seems like Brookshire does a lot of this staggering of musical lines? To an excess? Sometimes I like to put on the Brookshire. He's intense - as it were.

Not to any excess.  Performers who deviate from a "straight" interpretation take the risk that their means of deviation will call attention to itself, but that's not a problem for Brookshire.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: betterthanfine on November 07, 2012, 02:03:27 PM
Being still fairly new to classical music, my collection of Bach's keyboard works has so far consisted mainly of piano recordings, with the exception of one disc of harpsichord concertos by Ottavio Dantone. After reading a lot of piano vs. harpsichord discussion on this board, I decided I needed to acquaint myself with the harpsichord a little better. So today, I came across this box by Leonhardt:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519O0mvpRWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Remembering it got some favourable comments on here, I bought it, and I'm happy to say that I am quite pleased with what I'm hearing.

My next purchase will be a recording of the Goldbergs. I've listened to a few samples of the Bonizzoni recording mentioned on the previous page, and had a very positive reaction. Any other suggestions?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 07, 2012, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: betterthanfine on November 07, 2012, 02:03:27 PM
Being still fairly new to classical music, my collection of Bach's keyboard works has so far consisted mainly of piano recordings, with the exception of one disc of harpsichord concertos by Ottavio Dantone. After reading a lot of piano vs. harpsichord discussion on this board, I decided I needed to acquaint myself with the harpsichord a little better. So today, I came across this box by Leonhardt:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519O0mvpRWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Remembering it got some favourable comments on here, I bought it, and I'm happy to say that I am quite pleased with what I'm hearing.

My next purchase will be a recording of the Goldbergs. I've listened to a few samples of the Bonizzoni recording mentioned on the previous page, and had a very positive reaction. Any other suggestions?
I can't recall anyone in this thread who doesn't think that Pierre Hanta's recording is one of the best.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: stingo on November 07, 2012, 03:30:00 PM
Quote from: milk on November 07, 2012, 03:08:52 PM
I can't recall anyone in this thread who doesn't think that Pierre Hanta's recording is one of the best.

To my knowledge he's recorded the Goldberg Variations twice...

Once for Opus 111

[asin]B0000DEQDA[/asin]

And once for Mirare

[asin]B0000T6KEG[/asin]

Both are excellent but from what I recall the Mirare is the flashier of the two.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on November 07, 2012, 05:01:43 PM
Quote from: milk on November 07, 2012, 03:08:52 PM
I can't recall anyone in this thread who doesn't think that Pierre Hantai's recording is one of the best.

I don't think it's one of the best.

Of course, the fact that I've never heard it may have something to do with that  ;D

(I do remember liking his recording of the Toccatas.)

I don't have that terribly many performances of the GVs on harpsichord--Leonhardt's three various recordings (very much worth hearing, but I'm not sure which of the three I'd suggest), van Asperen (nothing pops in my memory about this performance good or bad),  Egarr (thumbs down), Staier (thumbs up).  For whatever reason,  I seem to prefer Bach's keyboard works to be done on piano.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 07, 2012, 07:59:29 PM
Quote from: stingo on November 07, 2012, 03:30:00 PM
To my knowledge he's recorded the Goldberg Variations twice...

Once for Opus 111

[asin]B0000DEQDA[/asin]

And once for Mirare

[asin]B0000T6KEG[/asin]

Both are excellent but from what I recall the Mirare is the flashier of the two.
Oops. I forgot about that. I only have the Mirare and it's great. The DHM Leonhardt is the one of his that I like best. I think Gilbert is really great. I also really like Blandine Rannou's but I think, perhaps, there is a lack of consensus about her recording.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: betterthanfine on November 08, 2012, 01:46:54 AM
Thanks for your responses, guys! I think I'll sample Hantaï's second recording and whatever Leonhardt I can find, along with the Bonizzoni and report back. :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Sammy on November 08, 2012, 01:42:48 PM
Quote from: stingo on November 07, 2012, 03:30:00 PM
To my knowledge he's recorded the Goldberg Variations twice...

Once for Opus 111

[asin]B0000DEQDA[/asin]

And once for Mirare

[asin]B0000T6KEG[/asin]

Both are excellent but from what I recall the Mirare is the flashier of the two.

I'm surprised you consider the Mirare, recorded 10 years after the Opus 111, to have more flash.  I find it more introspective and darker than his earlier version which is loaded with exuberance.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on November 08, 2012, 01:52:31 PM
Quote[asin]B0000T6KEG[/asin]

Every time I see this album cover, there is a moment where my brain interprets the image in the background as a hand-soap dispenser.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on November 08, 2012, 06:25:01 PM
Quote from: milk on November 07, 2012, 07:59:29 PM
Oops. I forgot about that. I only have the Mirare and it's great. The DHM Leonhardt is the one of his that I like best. I think Gilbert is really great. I also really like Blandine Rannou's but I think, perhaps, there is a lack of consensus about her recording.

Oh, I forgot I had the Rannou.
Count me in the naysayers about that one.  I don't like Egarr's GV recording because it's boring (I like to say that Egarr seems to want to prove the old myth that the work was written as a cure for insomnia), but I don't like Rannou because it seems wrongheaded so much of the time.   Perhaps it's not fair to Rannou, but the best way I can express it is to suggest her Goldbergs sound like what HJ Lim would do, if HJ Lim actually had enough technique to pull her ideas off.

(Meantime I'm ordering the Opus 111 Hantai on another tab of my browser.  The price for the Mirare means it is merely wishlisted.)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: stingo on November 08, 2012, 08:22:36 PM
Quote from: Sammy on November 08, 2012, 01:42:48 PM
I'm surprised you consider the Mirare, recorded 10 years after the Opus 111, to have more flash.  I find it more introspective and darker than his earlier version which is loaded with exuberance.

I'll have to revisit both of them then as my recollection may be in error.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 09, 2012, 08:46:39 AM
I tend to agree with Sammy about the two Hantais, so it would be interesting if you've noticed somehing we've missed. I must say I'm much more familar with the first.

If you're looking for interesting Goldbergs, try to hear Frisch's raher elegant and light account. And Vartolo's extraordinary symphonic account. and Verlet's second recording. You already know other favourites I suppose, like Leonhardt's DHM and (less so) Glen Wilson's .

The Vartolo is essential. In my opinion he's at the vanguard of a new era. Be there or be square.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: stingo on November 09, 2012, 10:47:00 AM
Yes - Frisch's account is excellent too!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on November 09, 2012, 11:15:54 AM
Quote from: betterthanfine on November 08, 2012, 01:46:54 AM
Thanks for your responses, guys! I think I'll sample Hantaï's second recording and whatever Leonhardt I can find, along with the Bonizzoni and report back. :)

Nope.
That won't do.
Just buy all of them, including the non-mentioned, and become a twisted Bach collector like so many of us. ;D

Oh, and welcome to the board! :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Sammy on November 09, 2012, 01:28:36 PM
Quote from: stingo on November 08, 2012, 08:22:36 PM
I'll have to revisit both of them then as my recollection may be in error.

I'll be direct - your recollection IS in error.  However, you'll likely have a great time listening to both Hantai recordings.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: stingo on November 09, 2012, 08:09:18 PM
No worries. Right or wrong it'll be a fun time going through both.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 10, 2012, 09:37:10 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 09, 2012, 08:46:39 AM
I tend to agree with Sammy about the two Hantais, so it would be interesting if you've noticed somehing we've missed. I must say I'm much more familar with the first.

If you're looking for interesting Goldbergs, try to hear Frisch's raher elegant and light account. And Vartolo's extraordinary symphonic account. and Verlet's second recording. You already know other favourites I suppose, like Leonhardt's DHM and (less so) Glen Wilson's .

The Vartolo is essential. In my opinion he's at the vanguard of a new era. Be there or be square.
I grabbed Vartolo's Goldberg and AoF on your recommendation. Wow! These are really extraordinary recordings. Thanks!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 10, 2012, 10:18:26 PM
Quote from: milk on November 10, 2012, 09:37:10 PM
I grabbed Vartolo's Goldberg and AoF on your recommendation. Wow! These are really extraordinary recordings. Thanks!

Do you like the singing in the Goldbergs, in the quadlibet? I couldn't believe my ears when I first heard it.

I'm listening on spotify so I don't have the notes, so I don't know who's singing.  Can anyone help me out? Is this the only recording with a sung Var 30?

The AoF is interesting because of the internal tempi changes I think. Suddenly the pieces have  codas, preludes, take the form of a triptych, an arch. I would like to hear more imaginative Bach performances like that, a WTC in the same style for example.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 12, 2012, 02:23:21 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 10, 2012, 10:18:26 PM
Do you like the singing in the Goldbergs, in the quadlibet? I couldn't believe my ears when I first heard it.

I'm listening on spotify so I don't have the notes, so I don't know who's singing.  Can anyone help me out? Is this the only recording with a sung Var 30?

The AoF is interesting because of the internal tempi changes I think. Suddenly the pieces have  codas, preludes, take the form of a triptych, an arch. I would like to hear more imaginative Bach performances like that, a WTC in the same style for example.
Yes i like it. It kind of shocked me. I was going to ask for an explanation of this but I didn't want to impose. Is this related to a cantata or something? I got the Frisch also. It's like the polar opposite of the Vartolo.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on November 12, 2012, 05:34:20 AM
Quote from: milk on November 12, 2012, 02:23:21 AM
Yes i like it. It kind of shocked me. I was going to ask for an explanation of this but I didn't want to impose. Is this related to a cantata or something?

I have no idea of what you two are talking about ;D, but the quodlibet from the GV is a party song about cabbages and pork or something like that. :D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: North Star on November 12, 2012, 05:56:00 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 12, 2012, 05:34:20 AM
I have no idea of what you two are talking about ;D, but the quodlibet from the GV is a party song about cabbages and pork or something like that. :D

I had no idea of this previously, but Wikipedia is informative:

Quote from: WikipediaThis quodlibet is based on multiple German folk songs, two of which are Ich bin solang nicht bei dir g'west, ruck her, ruck her ("I have so long been away from you, come closer, come closer") and Kraut und Rüben haven mich vertrieben, hätt mein' Mutter Fleisch gekocht, wär ich länger blieben ("Cabbage and turnips have driven me away, had my mother cooked meat, I'd have opted to stay"). The others have been forgotten. The Kraut und Rüben theme, under the title of La Capricciosa, had previously been used by Dietrich Buxtehude for his thirty-two partite in G major, BuxWV 250.[12]

Bach's biographer Forkel explains the Quodlibet by invoking a custom observed at Bach family reunions (Bach's relatives were almost all musicians):

As soon as they were assembled a chorale was first struck up. From this devout beginning they proceeded to jokes which were frequently in strong contrast. That is, they then sang popular songs partly of comic and also partly of indecent content, all mixed together on the spur of the moment. ... This kind of improvised harmonizing they called a Quodlibet, and not only could laugh over it quite whole-heartedly themselves, but also aroused just as hearty and irresistible laughter in all who heard them.

Forkel's anecdote (which is likely to be true, given that he was able to interview Bach's sons), suggests fairly clearly that Bach meant the Quodlibet to be a joke. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldberg_Variations#Variatio_30._a_1_Clav._Quodlibet)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on November 12, 2012, 06:09:32 AM
Quote from: North Star on November 12, 2012, 05:56:00 AM
I had no idea of this previously, but Wikipedia is informative:

So Profound, no? ;)

Okay, so no pigs. I think I must have had that confused with the lyrics about castrating them, to which Haydn(?) set his music.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 12, 2012, 08:17:40 AM
Quote from: milk on November 12, 2012, 02:23:21 AM
got the Frisch also. It's like the polar opposite of the Vartolo.

Maybe Frisch errs on the side of elegance and lightness, I don't know. It's entertaining as a recording though. Has anyone any comments about Lars Ulrik Mortensen's Goldbergs, which I'd like to hear just because I've been enjoying his Buxtehude solo records?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on November 12, 2012, 08:28:36 AM
There's BWV 524
Hopefully this code works
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Qs9-LFQuGNc?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

If not, the URL is http://youtu.be/Qs9-LFQuGNc


ETA: No it doesn't work.  What is the proper script to embed Youtubes?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on November 12, 2012, 08:34:09 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 12, 2012, 08:28:36 AM
ETA: No it doesn't work.  What is the proper script to embed Youtubes?

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2663.0.html

If you the YouTube page's link is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs9-LFQuGNc, the stuff that goes between the tags should be http://www.youtube.com/v/Qs9-LFQuGNc. (The quote mode of this post should make it clear.)

http://www.youtube.com/v/Qs9-LFQuGNc


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on November 12, 2012, 08:48:52 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 12, 2012, 08:34:09 AM
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2663.0.html

If you the YouTube page's link is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs9-LFQuGNc, the stuff that goes between the tags should be http://www.youtube.com/v/Qs9-LFQuGNc. (The quote mode of this post should make it clear.)



Thank you.  Hopefully I'll remember that the next time the embedding urge comes over me.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 12, 2012, 09:18:07 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 12, 2012, 08:17:40 AM
Has anyone any comments about Lars Ulrik Mortensen's Goldbergs, which I'd like to hear just because I've been enjoying his Buxtehude solo records?

Colourful, inventive within well judged stylistic limits.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on November 12, 2012, 09:47:17 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 12, 2012, 08:17:40 AM
Maybe Frisch errs on the side of elegance and lightness, I don't know. It's entertaining as a recording though. Has anyone any comments about Lars Ulrik Mortensen's Goldbergs, which I'd like to hear just because I've been enjoying his Buxtehude solo records?

As premont has already noted, it's a very colorful performance. I am a sucker for the harpsichord's lute or buff stop, and it is used is generously in Mortensen's recording.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 12, 2012, 10:10:32 AM
OK -- that's great. Thanks for responding. I'll get a copy.

I've just bought a ticket to hear Skip Sempe play in Paris next month -- French music as part of a big baroque festival there. I think he's very good on record in French music -- some of the F Couperin, including the Gamba duos, but also some of the solo pieces, are very characterfully played.   Paris is more lively  for baroque music than London I think. Has anyone tried his Rameau transcriptions CD with Hantai?

I've also started to listen to Mortensen playing Handel Op 3 concertos/
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 13, 2012, 09:12:15 AM
This quodlibet tune is I think the same as Buxtehude uses in the big variations set Buxwv 250 -- of which there is a very amazing recording by Glen Wilson.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: North Star on November 13, 2012, 01:03:37 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 13, 2012, 09:12:15 AM
This quodlibet tune is I think the same as Buxtehude uses in the big variations set Buxwv 250 -- of which there is a very amazing recording by Glen Wilson.
;)
Quote from: North Star on November 12, 2012, 05:56:00 AM
I had no idea of this previously, but Wikipedia is informative:

Quote from: WikipediaThe Kraut und Rüben theme, under the title of La Capricciosa, had previously been used by Dietrich Buxtehude for his thirty-two partite in G major, BuxWV 250.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldberg_Variations#Variatio_30._a_1_Clav._Quodlibet)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on November 14, 2012, 08:07:11 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 13, 2012, 09:12:15 AM
This quodlibet tune is I think the same as Buxtehude uses in the big variations set Buxwv 250 -- of which there is a very amazing recording by Glen Wilson.

Quoteso, among several pieces, in the Bergamasca in which Frescobaldi varies the "Bergamasca melody" that is at the base of Bach's quodlibet of "Kraut und Rüben / haben mich vertrieben" and "Ich bin so lang nicht bey dir g'west" (Goldberg Variations) and where the intertwined lines of the songs are sung before the Frescobaldi variations are played on the organ. Just one of many charming touches on this wonderful set.

...from: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/grab-it-while-you-can-frescobaldis.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/grab-it-while-you-can-frescobaldis.html)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Wakefield on November 14, 2012, 09:33:19 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 12, 2012, 08:17:40 AM
Maybe Frisch errs on the side of elegance and lightness, I don't know. It's entertaining as a recording though. Has anyone any comments about Lars Ulrik Mortensen's Goldbergs, which I'd like to hear just because I've been enjoying his Buxtehude solo records?

Not the Goldbergs, but I think you would love this recording by her:

[asin]B002XG8LCS[/asin]

It's a repertory which allows more freedom and Frisch takes the chance. Bach mixed with some of his more admirable forerunners.  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 16, 2012, 12:33:51 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on November 14, 2012, 09:33:19 AM
It's a repertory which allows more freedom ..

Do you not think it asks for more freedom ?
Allows seems so restricted in comparison.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 16, 2012, 12:45:26 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 10, 2012, 10:18:26 PM
The AoF is interesting because of the internal tempi changes I think [in Vartolo´s recording]. Suddenly the pieces have  codas, preludes, take the form of a triptych, an arch.

I find Vartolo rather fuzzy, loosing the sight of the great lines in this monumental work.
His pupil Messori (Brilliant) has got a more integrated view upon the work and still has retained much of Vartolo´s muical weightiness.
BTW in a short time the next volume of Messori´s Bach series, a CD with Great organ preludes and fugues ,will appear on Brilliant.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 17, 2012, 11:32:49 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on November 14, 2012, 09:33:19 AM
Not the Goldbergs, but I think you would love this recording by her:

[asin]B002XG8LCS[/asin]

It's a repertory which allows more freedom and Frisch takes the chance. Bach mixed with some of his more admirable forerunners.  :)

It's nice the way she takes the allemande in the Buxtehude suite so slowly, I don't think it cloys too much to play it like that. But truth is I like Koopman's fun energetic way more even though what he does finishes up by making the whole suite a bit homogeneous. Both Frisch and Koopman risk making the allemande fall apart for different reasons, but I don't think either of them do.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 29, 2013, 05:36:33 PM
I just noticed this new recording:
(http://bigpondmusic.com/images/AlbumCoverArt/342/XXL/J-S-Bach-Six-Partitas-For-Harpsichord-Clavier-Ubung-I-Bwv-825-830.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 01, 2013, 06:50:32 AM
Just a few words about this new Koopman:
My first impression of the Koopman is that it seems a bit intellectual to me. His ornamentation is interesting, even exciting sometimes, but it feels like he loses momentum and the sense of being "in the moment." He does play a mighty sweet sounding instrument. Sometimes he "wows" me. I end up going back and forth between recordings these days. I can't help it. I still find Suzuki to be wonderful. The music seems to flow right out of him. Koopman's approach with regard to ornamentation seems akin to Suzuki - although Koopman lacks the continual sense of spontaneity and focus on beauty. I don't hear this so called "Protestantism" in Suzuki's harpsichord playing. Mortensen is a great contrast. He creates a totally different atmosphere. "Atmosphere" seems like the right word to describe Mortensen. I love the Mortensen. I can see why Ross has his fans. Ross is kind of "no nonsense" - but he conveys an understanding of the music. He's respectable in a good way. Leonhardt is magic and always leaves me wanting more. You just can't ever get enough of Leonhardt! How does he say so much without seeming to do that much? It's like magic! Leonhardt is exciting when he needs to be, mournful when it's called for, etc. I've never gotten into the Rousset or Pinnock and although I have Alard, I've not given him a chance. Should I try harder with these three? I think the best partitas are delivered by Leonhardt, Suzuki and Mortensen.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 01, 2013, 07:08:26 AM
One more thing: Mortensen's Goldberg Variations and French Suites sound pretty great just from the samples. I'm extremely tempted. With so much praise for Mortensen on this forum, I wonder why I don't see anything about these two recordings. I can't find much about them anywhere. Does anyone have an opinion? Now I will leave off!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2013, 01:11:10 PM
Quote from: milk on February 01, 2013, 07:08:26 AM
One more thing: Mortensen's Goldberg Variations and French Suites sound pretty great just from the samples. I'm extremely tempted. With so much praise for Mortensen on this forum, I wonder why I don't see anything about these two recordings. I can't find much about them anywhere. Does anyone have an opinion? Now I will leave off!

In the Goldbergs, everything is very very beautiful and sane and calm and often rather cheerful, like the polar opposite of Hantai 2. Normally I'd find that a problem, I'd get bored,  but he's doing something which make me enjoy listening, though I'm not quite sure what. In a way Mortensen reminds me of Rubinstein, because of his uncomplicated straightforward non-neurotic style of making music.

I've been enjoying Mortensen's Handel Op 3

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/016/168/0001616854_500.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 02, 2013, 06:06:58 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2013, 01:11:10 PM
In the Goldbergs, everything is very very beautiful and sane and calm and often rather cheerful, like the polar opposite of Hantai 2. Normally I'd find that a problem, I'd get bored,  but he's doing something which make me enjoy listening, though I'm not quite sure what. In a way Mortensen reminds me of Rubinstein, because of his uncomplicated straightforward non-neurotic style of making music.


Yeah, it's sunny Bach, spring Bach. It was perfect for today's jog: a 60-degree winter day in Osaka. Well, there's a lot of love in Mortensen's  Goldberg. It's so different than the one I listened to last week: Vartolo! Speaking of which: Do you think Vartolo's approach is more suited to the AOF (which I also spent time with last week)? As for Mortensen, I also never felt bored. He loves the music and expresses this. His joy is infectious! I hear a lot of laughter in it. Sometimes I even imagined myself to be in a beer hall (that is from my imagination because I don't know what a beer hall is).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Coopmv on February 03, 2013, 11:04:50 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2013, 01:11:10 PM
In the Goldbergs, everything is very very beautiful and sane and calm and often rather cheerful, like the polar opposite of Hantai 2. Normally I'd find that a problem, I'd get bored,  but he's doing something which make me enjoy listening, though I'm not quite sure what. In a way Mortensen reminds me of Rubinstein, because of his uncomplicated straightforward non-neurotic style of making music.

I've been enjoying Mortensen's Handel Op 3

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/016/168/0001616854_500.jpg)

I really do not have much exposure to Mortensen yet, though I have the following DVD that is still in shrinkwrap for over a year ...

I already have about a half dozen versions of these works.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YUgpU3zrL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on February 23, 2013, 11:38:39 PM
Quote from: milk on February 01, 2013, 06:50:32 AM

I just noticed this new recording:
(http://bigpondmusic.com/images/AlbumCoverArt/342/XXL/J-S-Bach-Six-Partitas-For-Harpsichord-Clavier-Ubung-I-Bwv-825-830.jpg)

Just a few words about this new Koopman:
My first impression of the Koopman is that it seems a bit intellectual to me. His ornamentation is interesting, even exciting sometimes, but it feels like he loses momentum and the sense of being "in the moment." He does play a mighty sweet sounding instrument. Sometimes he "wows" me. I end up going back and forth between recordings these days. I can't help it. I still find Suzuki to be wonderful. The music seems to flow right out of him. Koopman's approach with regard to ornamentation seems akin to Suzuki - although Koopman lacks the continual sense of spontaneity and focus on beauty. I don't hear this so called "Protestantism" in Suzuki's harpsichord playing. Mortensen is a great contrast. He creates a totally different atmosphere. "Atmosphere" seems like the right word to describe Mortensen. I love the Mortensen. I can see why Ross has his fans. Ross is kind of "no nonsense" - but he conveys an understanding of the music. He's respectable in a good way. Leonhardt is magic and always leaves me wanting more. You just can't ever get enough of Leonhardt! How does he say so much without seeming to do that much? It's like magic! Leonhardt is exciting when he needs to be, mournful when it's called for, etc. I've never gotten into the Rousset or Pinnock and although I have Alard, I've not given him a chance. Should I try harder with these three? I think the best partitas are delivered by Leonhardt, Suzuki and Mortensen.

This morning I'm listening through the samples on all music (http://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-six-partitas-for-harpsichord-clavier-%C3bung-i-bwv-825830-mw0002472087), as I do more often these days. And I have to say that, despite the fact that I've never been a fan of Koopman on the harpsichord - in sharp contrast to my admiration of his Bach on the organ - this new recording is not bad at all. Definitely different and interesting though he still suffers from micro-managing and ever shifting tempi - which creates a certain "nervosity". But in comparison to before I detect more calm and breath in the interpretation.

I'm a fan of Rousset on this and have recently been quite taken with Pieter-Jan Belder's interpretation (1999, Brilliant Classics)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on April 17, 2013, 10:03:34 AM
Any thoughts on Egarr's English Suites?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on April 17, 2013, 07:47:04 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on April 17, 2013, 10:03:34 AM
Any thoughts on Egarr's English Suites?

Yes, but they're totally incoherent.

I gave it a first listen a couple of days ago, and nothing about it stood out, positive or negative.  Playing style seems comparable to his WTC, but there's no single characteristic I could point to that would apply to this performance.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on April 18, 2013, 01:00:22 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 17, 2013, 07:47:04 PM
Yes, but they're totally incoherent.

I gave it a first listen a couple of days ago, and nothing about it stood out, positive or negative.  Playing style seems comparable to his WTC, but there's no single characteristic I could point to that would apply to this performance.

Incoherent would suggest "strongly negative" though, no?

And you can't find a characteristic in his WTC, either? I understand that some ears might find it boring or routine (which I thought for a while, as well). But regardless of whether that makes them good or not, Egarr's playing is incredibly soft, has a very flexible touch (I don't mean rubato, of which there is hardy little, but the actual pluck), and the results are very nuanced. Nothing 'in your face', certainly. Can't say that I'd recommend them above all others, but for myself I've come around to it... especially Book II. Still waiting to hear the English Suites, though.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Sammy on April 18, 2013, 12:59:20 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 18, 2013, 01:00:22 AM
Incoherent would suggest "strongly negative" though, no?

And you can't find a characteristic in his WTC, either? I understand that some ears might find it boring or routine (which I thought for a while, as well). But regardless of whether that makes them good or not, Egarr's playing is incredibly soft, has a very flexible touch (I don't mean rubato, of which there is hardy little, but the actual pluck), and the results are very nuanced. Nothing 'in your face', certainly. Can't say that I'd recommend them above all others, but for myself I've come around to it... especially Book II. Still waiting to hear the English Suites, though.

I tend to prefer Egarr's Book I by a little bit.  I agree about his softness and flexibility; I also appreciate the cantabile style he uses.  However, in the end I'm not taken by any of his Bach recordings.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on April 18, 2013, 06:22:00 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 18, 2013, 01:00:22 AM
Incoherent would suggest "strongly negative" though, no?

And you can't find a characteristic in his WTC, either? I understand that some ears might find it boring or routine (which I thought for a while, as well). But regardless of whether that makes them good or not, Egarr's playing is incredibly soft, has a very flexible touch (I don't mean rubato, of which there is hardy little, but the actual pluck), and the results are very nuanced. Nothing 'in your face', certainly. Can't say that I'd recommend them above all others, but for myself I've come around to it... especially Book II. Still waiting to hear the English Suites, though.

Incoherent was meant to describe my reaction to Egarr's playing--not meant to describe Egarr's playing.
What I meant to say is that there's nothing I can latch onto as a leading characteristic of how Egarr plays the Suites, at least after that single hearing.  Some performances you can attach a leading adjective to after only one hearing;  Egarr's is not one of them--although possibly your word ("nuanced") might work well.  I've played his WTC a few times, and still can't give a description of it that would (in my own mind) convey an adequate impression to someone who had not heard the recording for themselves.  But the general style of this recording seems to be cut from the same cloth as his WTC, so how you react to his WTC is probably a good indicator of how you will react to this recording.

I would not, btw, call Egarr's playing in the Suites or the WTC, boring or routine.  His Goldbergs, OTOH, give new life to the bromide that they were written as a cure for aristocratic insomnia.  Fortunately his Bach has improved considerably since then.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on May 06, 2013, 07:28:25 AM
For purposes of entertainment only!

Proceed at your own risk: http://tempuscollection.com/main/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=11&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53&lang=en

Maximiano Cobra plays Bach on a cembalo! ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 12, 2013, 04:12:23 AM
I'm in search of a list of recordings of WTC separating piano and harpsichord (clavichord, lute-harpsichord), I want to get another Book I and II but not on piano. Everywhere I search bunches them all together.
Anyone know where I can find one? Thank you!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2013, 06:23:14 PM
My 'newest' addition to my collection that qualifies for this thread - love the clavichord on an excellent  instrument & recorded well:

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-g6zR9qQ/0/O/Bach_FSuites_Tilney.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Geo Dude on May 16, 2013, 06:11:34 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 12, 2013, 04:12:23 AM
I'm in search of a list of recordings of WTC separating piano and harpsichord (clavichord, lute-harpsichord), I want to get another Book I and II but not on piano. Everywhere I search bunches them all together.
Anyone know where I can find one? Thank you!

Sorry for taking so long to help out with this.  I can't offer you a list (though tossing in harpsichord into your search can help), but I can recommend Dantone's and Watchorn's book one and two.  Do some sampling, though, some people find Watchorn a bit heavy in book one.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 16, 2013, 11:13:26 AM
Now that I'm getting back into vinyl, I just discovered that I have a set of the Partitas played by a certain James Weaver, issued as part of a Smithsonian box back in the 1970s.

Does anyone have an opinion on this recording? I don't think it was ever released on CD.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 16, 2013, 11:41:50 AM
Quote from: Velimir on May 16, 2013, 11:13:26 AM
Now that I'm getting back into vinyl, I just discovered that I have a set of the Partitas played by a certain James Weaver, issued as part of a Smithsonian box back in the 1970s.

Does anyone have an opinion on this recording? I don't think it was ever released on CD.

I got it more than 15 years ago and have not listened to it for a long time. I remember, that I found it musically very satisfying.
Maybe it is time for a relisten.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 16, 2013, 11:58:34 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 16, 2013, 11:41:50 AM
I got it more than 15 years ago and have not listened to it for a long time. I remember, that I found it musically very satisfying.
Maybe it is time for a relisten.

Thanks, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on it. I also have the Brandenburgs issued as part of the same series, and am listening to No. 5 right now. A very nice (if somewhat generic) period-instrument performance, in excellent sound.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 16, 2013, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: Velimir on May 16, 2013, 11:58:34 AM
Thanks, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on it. I also have the Brandenburgs issued as part of the same series, and am listening to No. 5 right now. A very nice (if somewhat generic) period-instrument performance, in excellent sound.

Also this one I own. So I can listen to both set at the same sitting.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on May 16, 2013, 02:03:32 PM
Playing through Andras Schiff's 12 CD box of the major Bach keyboard works, and having Hewitt's complete traversal,  it struck me that while I have all of them on harpsichord, usually several times over, and have the Teldec box with various keyboardists contributing,  that I don't know who among harpsichordists has done a complete traversal (or at least a complete traversal of the "major" works).

So I am asking:

Who has done such a cycle on harpsichord?

And who among the alternatives (assuming there's more than one) would you suggest.


Boxed up neat and convenient would be ideal, but if I need to buy it in installments,  I will.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on May 16, 2013, 03:27:42 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 16, 2013, 02:03:32 PM
Playing through Andras Schiff's 12 CD box of the major Bach keyboard works, and having Hewitt's complete traversal,  it struck me that while I have all of them on harpsichord, usually several times over, and have the Teldec box with various keyboardists contributing,  that I don't know who among harpsichordists has done a complete traversal (or at least a complete traversal of the "major" works).

So I am asking:

Who has done such a cycle on harpsichord?

And who among the alternatives (assuming there's more than one) would you suggest.


Boxed up neat and convenient would be ideal, but if I need to buy it in installments,  I will.

Good question. I can't think of any that are all-harpsichord... Strange. Actually... there's one, I think... namely Brilliant's subset box with Pieter-Jan Belder and a few others (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0001NPU1K/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B0001NPU1K&linkCode=as2&tag=goodmusicguide-21)!?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on May 16, 2013, 05:53:22 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 16, 2013, 03:27:42 PM
Good question. I can't think of any that are all-harpsichord... Strange. Actually... there's one, I think... namely Brilliant's subset box with Pieter-Jan Belder and a few others (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0001NPU1K/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B0001NPU1K&linkCode=as2&tag=goodmusicguide-21)!?

I was thinking in terms of a single player, actually---besides which I have Belder's WTC and Partitas (and maybe English Suites, I'll have to go looking) already.  I was sort of hoping he had done a complete traversal.   (And I could get the entire Brilliant Complete box for not much more than what AmazonDE wants for that subset!)  For multiple players I've got the Teldec box, plus the Hanssler box but of course large chunks of that are not PI.

To be clear, it doesn't need to be entirely on harpsichord.  Clavichord and lute harpsichord work just as well.  What I really am looking for is a single player PI cycle of the keyboard works.   Egarr might be working his way through the major works, at least.  How much has Watchorn actually recorded?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on May 17, 2013, 12:40:25 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 16, 2013, 05:53:22 PM
I was thinking in terms of a single player, actually---besides which I have Belder's WTC and Partitas (and maybe English Suites, I'll have to go looking) already.  I was sort of hoping he had done a complete traversal.   (And I could get the entire Brilliant Complete box for not much more than what AmazonDE wants for that subset!)  For multiple players I've got the Teldec box, plus the Hanssler box but of course large chunks of that are not PI.

To be clear, it doesn't need to be entirely on harpsichord.  Clavichord and lute harpsichord work just as well.  What I really am looking for is a single player PI cycle of the keyboard works.   Egarr might be working his way through the major works, at least.  How much has Watchorn actually recorded?

Well... that means we're back to: there are none... and Watchorn may be furthest down that path. But it's striking... shocking perhaps, that there is no such set yet. I wonder how much the individual recordings of two Blandines have covered...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on May 17, 2013, 12:58:52 AM
Leonhardt on Seon/DHM and Virgin has covered most of the major works. WTC, CU I (Virgin), CU II, GV, Two- and three-part Inventions, English (also Virgin) and French suites, and the AoF.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 17, 2013, 01:14:18 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 16, 2013, 02:03:32 PM

Who has done such a cycle on harpsichord?

And who among the alternatives (assuming there's more than one) would you suggest.

Many of the cycles (recordings of all major works by one performer) are OOP.

From the top of my head there are:

Isolde Ahlgrimm (Philips LP early 1950es, rereleased in two LP boxes ca 1975) OOP

Ralph Kirkpatrick (Archiv LP late 1950es - early 1960es) parts of it rereleased on CD

Helmut Walcha (EMI LP - originally Odeon 1958 - 1962) Toccatas manualiter not included. Rereleased by Japanese EMI maybe 15 years ago, but as well as impossible to get hold of complete. The WTC, Inventions and Goldbergs have been rereleased on CD by French EMI in a 5 CD box.

Martin Galling (Vox LP ca 1962 - 68), rereleased on CD by Vox - may also be had in a sonical inferior Membrane release.

Zuzana Ruzickova (Erato and Supraphon 1970es) I have only heard parts of the Erato release and do not know if she actually made two integrals or if the Erato release is  identical with the Supraphon release.

Christiane Jaccottet (Intercord CD 1980es) , original CDs OOP but many of them rereleased by cheap labels like Zyx.

Kenneth Gilbert (split between Harmonia Mundi and Archiv during mostly the 1980es) also to a great extent OOP, particularly the Harmonia Mundi CDs

Gustav Leonhardt (split between DHM and Sony/Seon - and alternative versions of the Partitas and English suites for EMI/Virgin). What is missing are most of the Toccatas.

Masaaki Suzuki ongoing cycle on BIS we have Clavierübung I,II,(III) and IV, the Inventions, the French suites, the WTC and various other pieces. Missing are the English suites and the Toccatas.

Pieter-Jan Belder (Brilliant 2000es) has recorded Clavierübung I,II and IV as well as the WTC, the Inventions and the French suites and various other pieces. What is missing are the English suites and the Toccatas.

Peter Watchorn ongoing cycle (Musica Omnia), until now we have got the WTC, the English and French suites, the Inventions and for Haenssler he recorded the Toccatas and the Concerto transcriptions.

I think Koopman and Egarr with time are going to make complete cycles.



Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on May 17, 2013, 10:19:12 AM
Thanks.   It wouild seem I need to start assembling Watchorn and Suzuki, and figure out what I don't have from Leonhardt and Belder....
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on May 18, 2013, 09:13:04 AM
Speaking of Belder:
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/brilliantclassics94621.jpg)
Contents as listed at Prestoclassical

   
Goldberg Variations, BWV988

Amati String Trio

Goldberg Variations, BWV988

Elena Barshai (organ)

Goldberg Variations, BWV988

Pieter-Jan Belder (harpsichord)

Goldberg Variations, BWV988

Yuan Sheng (piano)


Release date is given as June 10.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: JaapT on May 19, 2013, 01:05:29 AM
Yesterday I listened to some of the partitas played by Pascal Dubreuil. They are generally well played, but a bit slow for my taste. I own the version of Leonhardt (Virgin) and Scott Ross, both of which I prefer over Dubreuil. Although both are quite different. WIth Leonhardt everything seems just right, whereas Scott Ross is more forceful, masculine, I would say.

Anyway, what caught my attention about the CD by Dubreuil is the booklet. It contains a letter from an anonymous Frenchman who attended a concert at Cafe Zimmermann. I never heard of the existence of this letter. But it describes how Bach first plays one of the partitas and then some of the harpsichord concertos (with an orchestra of one to a part) with his sons. He also writes that Bach used unequal temperament, unlike the French.

This seems a rather important eyewitness account, but I was wondering if it is real, since a) it confirms all our prejudices and b) I can't find any other reference to it. Does anyone no more about this letter?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on May 19, 2013, 05:14:45 AM
Quote from: JaapT on May 19, 2013, 01:05:29 AM
Yesterday I listened to some of the partitas played by Pascal Dubreuil. They are generally well played, but a bit slow for my taste. I own the version of Leonhardt (Virgin) and Scott Ross, both of which I prefer over Dubreuil. Although both are quite different. WIth Leonhardt everything seems just right, whereas Scott Ross is more forceful, masculine, I would say.

Anyway, what caught my attention about the CD by Dubreuil is the booklet. It contains a letter from an anonymous Frenchman who attended a concert at Cafe Zimmermann. I never heard of the existence of this letter. But it describes how Bach first plays one of the partitas and then some of the harpsichord concertos (with an orchestra of one to a part) with his sons. He also writes that Bach used unequal temperament, unlike the French.

This seems a rather important eyewitness account, but I was wondering if it is real, since a) it confirms all our prejudices and b) I can't find any other reference to it. Does anyone no more about this letter?
Christoph Wolff, in his book on Bach, dug pretty deep into archives. Still, he often has to rely on inference and educated conjecture in order to create a plausible image of this part of Bach's life. There is no mention of any letter containing a firsthand report of Bach's performances. But there are some announcements in the archives from which Wolff pieces together sparse information.
For instance, Bach played from 8-10pm at the coffee house on Fridays in the winter and 4-6pm on Wednesdays in the summer. Additionally, Bach played on Tuesday and Fridays, 8-10pm, during certain fairs (if I'm reading this information correctly). But Wolff admits that, "it is impossible to reconstruct, even in the broadest outlines, any of the more than five hundred 2-hour programs for which Bach was responsible." Still, Wolff is reasonably sure about some of the material for the "ordinaire concerten," for example BWV 211 and 201, as well as Bach's concertos and much of his solo harpsichord output. Generally, the details are rather vague.
I'm skeptical of this letter. It would be a revelation to have it. 
         
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: JaapT on May 19, 2013, 07:19:05 AM
Quote from: milk on May 19, 2013, 05:14:45 AM
Christoph Wolff, in his book on Bach, dug pretty deep into archives. Still, he often has to rely on inference and educated conjecture in order to create a plausible image of this part of Bach's life. There is no mention of any letter containing a firsthand report of Bach's performances. But there are some announcements in the archives from which Wolff pieces together sparse information.
For instance, Bach played from 8-10pm at the coffee house on Fridays in the winter and 4-6pm on Wednesdays in the summer. Additionally, Bach played on Tuesday and Fridays, 8-10pm, during certain fairs (if I'm reading this information correctly). But Wolff admits that, "it is impossible to reconstruct, even in the broadest outlines, any of the more than five hundred 2-hour programs for which Bach was responsible." Still, Wolff is reasonably sure about some of the material for the "ordinaire concerten," for example BWV 211 and 201, as well as Bach's concertos and much of his solo harpsichord output. Generally, the details are rather vague.
I'm skeptical of this letter. It would be a revelation to have it. 
         

I agree. The letter seems too good to be true. But where did Pascal Dubreuil get this from (he wrote the CD booklet himself), or did he make it up himself?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on May 19, 2013, 07:54:06 AM
Well, I found it in French. I used computer translation to get the gist of it but I'm sure the French speakers on the forum can comment. I'm a little skeptical of this. Something doesn't seem right about it. But what do I know? I'm curious what the more knowledgeable folks here think of it:

Ci-dessous, le témoignage d'un touriste français de passage à Leipzig en 1731 dans lequel il évoque la publication des six partitas pour clavier. Pour accompagner la lecture, le prélude de la première partita remarquablement interprétée par Pascal Dubreuil :



« Le second évènement dont je souhaitais vous entretenir s'est passé le troisième jour après notre arrivée à  Leipzig. Selon l'habitude prise depuis quelques mois, le grand Johann Sébastian Bach, compositeur de Musique de l'Eglise Saint Thomas, venait chez Zimmermann, endroit fort agréable où on peut boire du chocolat et du café, et rendez-vous de toutes les personnes de qualité de la Ville, afin de s'y faire entendre pour la réjouissance des amateurs de musique de cette Ville.

A ce que l'on dit ici, cette habitude est nouvelle : cela ne fait pas longtemps que l'on peut entendre de la si bonne musique tous les Vendredis dans cet endroit.

La salle de la rue Catherine est assez petite, quoiqu'elle permette d'y placer un orchestre complet, fourni, il est vrai, d'un seul joueur pour les différentes parties. Les gens étaient fort nombreux mais, grâce à  notre ami de Leipzig, nous avons pu trouver une table, point trop loin du Clavecin. Notre ami nous a même présentés à  Monsieur Gottfried : c'est ainsi que les habitués appellent le Maître des lieux.

A 8 heures le soir, le grand Bach est entré, accompagné d'autres joueurs d'instruments, dont certains semblaient fort jeunes. Notre ami nous dit alors qu'il s'agissait de ses fils, Friedemann & Emanuel.


L'ancien Maître de Chapelle du Prince de Cothen a fait, fort vite il est vrai, un accord du Clavecin, selon la méthode Allemande : celle-ci n'est point tout à  fait de notre goût ; les tons de la tierce en sont trop loin de la bonne et pure égalité, et il en résulte un je ne sais quoi de criard et de dur, pour nos oreilles habituées à  la bonne manière de l'accordage Français.

Une fois l'accord achevé, il a préludé, fort bien, certes dans une manière plus contrainte que ne le font à Paris nos joueurs de Clavecin, mais qui a bien plu à Monsieur votre Epoux ainsi qu'à  Mademoiselle votre Fille.


C'est alors qu'il a fort plaisamment prévenu qu'il souhaitait jouer, pour le plus grand plaisir des amateurs présents, la dernière de ses Pièces de Clavecin, laquelle était juste gravée, ainsi que cinq autres, dans le même Livre qu'il venait de donner au public (...) Je crois fort sincèrement que je n'ai guère entendu, dans nos salons, une telle grandeur, et une telle force dans l'éloquence, non plus qu'un tel génie, dans le toucher du Clavecin.


Son art m'a transporté, à  de certains moments, je me pouvais persuader d'être en notre Chapelle de Versailles, lors des Grands Offices auxquels le feu Roy Louis assistait, tant ce Monsieur Bach savait mettre en sa musique et en son Clavessin toute l'âme de la grande Eloquence et les plus subtiles figures de nos plus brillants orateurs. On dit aussi qu'il joue fort bien sur l'orgue.

Accompagné de ses fils & d'autres joueurs d'instruments, Il a ensuite donné à entendre quelques-uns de ses Concertos pour un et deux Clavecins (...) ».


Pour écouter des extraits de l'album de Pascal Dubreuil

http://epicurienhedoniste.blogspot.jp/2012/07/blog-post_1518.html
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on May 19, 2013, 06:21:20 PM
I am dubious of this letter.

1) Egarr, in explaining his adherence to the system he uses in his Bach recordings, makes absolutely no mention of such a letter, which explicitly contradicts his position as to the temperment Bach used.

2)I don't think a French visitor would refer to Bach as "le grand" (what sort of reputation did Bach have among the French? Did they even know he existed?),   nor to his connection to Cothen.  He might have referred to his status vis a vis the King of Saxony (when did that particular royalty acknowledge his existence) or his role as director of some of the town music, or his post as Thomaskantor...but not to his old job with a minor prince.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on May 21, 2013, 11:29:49 AM
After studying many recording of the Well-Tempered I & II on harpsichord, I think Kenneth Gilbert's Archiv is my favorite. The pace, the sound, wow, everything feels so right.

I still have not acquired Leonhardt's WTC set, which I'm eager to get soon!

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on June 14, 2013, 10:23:08 AM
Does anyone know if both books are included in this set? If it's the whole thing, I'd appreciate your thoughts on the recordings, if you have listened to it.

[asin]B0000007JW[/asin]

(no 'official' cover picture available at Amazon)
Davitt Moroney
Well-Tempered Clavier
Harmonia Mundi
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on June 14, 2013, 10:36:40 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 19, 2013, 06:21:20 PM
I am dubious of this letter.

1) Egarr, in explaining his adherence to the system he uses in his Bach recordings, makes absolutely no mention of such a letter, which explicitly contradicts his position as to the temperment Bach used.

2)I don't think a French visitor would refer to Bach as "le grand" (what sort of reputation did Bach have among the French? Did they even know he existed?),   nor to his connection to Cothen.  He might have referred to his status vis a vis the King of Saxony (when did that particular royalty acknowledge his existence) or his role as director of some of the town music, or his post as Thomaskantor...but not to his old job with a minor prince.

Yes. And the letter isn't published in The New Bach Reader (Norton) as far as I can see, and there's no reply to the request by Michèle Lhopiteau-Dorfeuille for more details about the origin of the letter on the blog.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 24, 2013, 03:40:43 PM
New one!
[asin]B00FA312N6[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on September 24, 2013, 09:43:42 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on June 14, 2013, 10:23:08 AM
Does anyone know if both books are included in this set? If it's the whole thing, I'd appreciate your thoughts on the recordings, if you have listened to it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZMfoHNEGL.jpg)

(no 'official' cover picture available at Amazon)
Davitt Moroney
Well-Tempered Clavier
Harmonia Mundi

I remember this as being a sample disc. At the time I was a novice in these matters it did strike me as being emotionally dry and academic, rather introverted, not quite idiomatic.

But since then I've become quite a fan of Moroney in other repertoire (L. Couperin, Byrd) and I'd love to hear his WTC again! :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on September 24, 2013, 09:55:48 PM
Quote from: Que on September 24, 2013, 09:43:42 PM
I remember this as being a sample disc. At the time I was a novice in these matters it did strike me as being emotionally dry and academic, rather introverted, not quite idiomatic.

But since then I've become quite a fan of Moroney in other repertoire (L. Couperin, Byrd) and I'd love to hear his WTC again! :)

Q

Thanks for the thoughts, Que. :) I think it was Premont, in another thread (possibly the one on the WTK), who confirmed that it was a set of selections rather than the whole shebang. And yes, HM should re-release his discs.

In the meanwhile, I bought my first Moroney disc a couple of weeks ago which include selections from a compendium compiled by a cousin of F. Couperin; yet to listen to it, though.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2013, 07:23:01 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 24, 2013, 09:55:48 PM
Thanks for the thoughts, Que. :) I think it was Premont, in another thread (possibly the one on the WTK), who confirmed that it was a set of selections rather than the whole shebang. And yes, HM should re-release his discs.

In the meanwhile, I bought my first Moroney disc a couple of weeks ago which include selections from a compendium compiled by a cousin of F. Couperin; yet to listen to it, though.

In solo Bach, he's worth catching in Art of Fugue (both recordings) and The French Suites. WTC  maybe slightly less so. Away from Bach, I have his Froberger CD, I need to relisten, It's potentially very interesting as it's an organ recital. And The Byrd has peaks (Pavans and Galliards) and some troughs too ( would anyone prefer the way he plays the fantasias to Wilson or Belder?) I haven't heard anything else, I'd be quite curious to know of you like his F Couperin.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Opus106 on September 25, 2013, 08:01:36 AM
Thanks for you recommendations.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 25, 2013, 07:23:01 AM
I haven't heard anything else, I'd be quite curious to know of you like his F Couperin.

Not François, but his cousin. And in most cases, the pieces are simply arrangement of other composers' works. :)

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67164&vw=dc

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Wakefield on September 25, 2013, 09:16:16 AM
Quote from: milk on September 24, 2013, 03:40:43 PM
New one!
[asin]B00FA312N6[/asin]

Great! Peter Watchorn is slowly fulfilling his project of recording the complete harpsichord music by Bach. I'm delighted.  :)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2013, 09:34:43 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 25, 2013, 08:01:36 AM
Thanks for you recommendations.

Not François, but his cousin. And in most cases, the pieces are simply arrangement of other composers' works. :)
E trios.
http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67164&vw=dc

Ah, I was wondering what you meant by "cousin"! He has recorded some Couperiin le grand I think, though I'm not sure how much. I will investigate.

By the way, his recording of opfer is very fine too.

Oh, does anyone know how I can get to hear Kenneth Gilbert's French Suites? Short of paying a lot of money (that's code for "could someone upload it for me, please?")


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on September 25, 2013, 10:30:59 AM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 25, 2013, 09:16:16 AM
Great! Peter Watchorn is slowly fulfilling his project of recording the complete harpsichord music by Bach. I'm delighted.  :)

Slowly indeed; I believe this will be the first traversal of the partitas to span three CDs. (Am I delighted? I'm intrigued, at least. So far I've enjoyed his WTC more than his suites.)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Wakefield on September 25, 2013, 10:49:40 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on September 25, 2013, 10:30:59 AM
Slowly indeed; I believe this will be the first traversal of the partitas to span three CDs. (Am I delighted? I'm intrigued, at least. So far I've enjoyed his WTC more than his suites.)

Obviously, I haven't listened to this new set, but I don't believe the extra disc will be a thing of slowness. Watchorn has never been a keyboardist excessively on the slow side. But he usually has some idiosyncratic ideas in matter of additional movements, repeats and alternative versions. I would say this will be the case here.

And yes, I'm delighted because he is going to form a very solid integral of the harpsichord music by Bach. Naturally, I'm not waiting for a new number one in every new collection recorded by him.

BTW, I liked very much his French Suites, but a bit less his old English Suites.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: PaulSC on September 25, 2013, 11:47:42 AM
I find that Watchorn often does lean rather far to the proverbial slow side in the French Suites -- not by pushing the slow tempi to extremes, but by moderating the fast ones so much that they feel held back. As a result, a certain liveliness is missing from many of his courantes and gigues. I do appreciate the decorations he often adds to repeats in the courantes, and maybe his tempo choices facilitate these, but they also lend a gravity to the music that I don't always welcome.

I'll spend more time with his French Suites. Maybe they'll grow on me.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Wakefield on September 25, 2013, 06:35:35 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on September 25, 2013, 11:47:42 AM
I find that Watchorn often does lean rather far to the proverbial slow side in the French Suites -- not by pushing the slow tempi to extremes, but by moderating the fast ones so much that they feel held back. As a result, a certain liveliness is missing from many of his courantes and gigues. I do appreciate the decorations he often adds to repeats in the courantes, and maybe his tempo choices facilitate these, but they also lend a gravity to the music that I don't always welcome.

I think your description is quite accurate. I haven't done a comparison, but probably a comparison between slow dances and fast dances would reveal a ratio of tempi quite shorter than in many modern recordings. But I like this because I find Watchorn tends to distinguish more between rhetorically-charged/intense movements and meditative/more-relaxed movements than simply between fast & slow.   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 25, 2013, 11:54:55 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on September 25, 2013, 10:30:59 AM
Slowly indeed; I believe this will be the first traversal of the partitas to span three CDs. (Am I delighted? I'm intrigued, at least. So far I've enjoyed his WTC more than his suites.)
I've grown to love his WTC but his FS never grew on me. I also wonder if I should go back to them. My impression was that the dances were lacking liveliness and light-heartedness. But perhaps I'd form a different impression these days. My favorite FS recording is Van Asperen.
I have a feeling that the partitas play more to Watchorn's strengths.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 02, 2013, 02:08:23 AM
So far I'm having a hard time with this. It just doesn't seem to have the vitality, propulsive force, or the intensity that Suzuki, Mortensen, Ross or Leonhardt have. The searching quality works wonders on WTC. But it seems like he takes the same tack with the partitas. Now, it may be that I just need to open my mind a bit to what he's doing. One thing I did was pitted his rondeau in 826 against that of the four recordings I mentioned above. Watchorn just doesn't seem to move forward. But I don't want to be the only opinion on this since there aren't reviews out yet - so maybe someone else might give this set a try and tell us what they think (or sample it a bit if they can find samples somewhere). 
[asin]B00FA312N6[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on October 08, 2013, 09:35:13 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 08, 2013, 12:43:33 PM
I do not know this recording. Where did you find it?

Tuma`s Bach, of which I own a bit (WTC, Goldbergs, AoF, Orgelbüchlein and CÛ III), has generally underwhelmed me (except the WTC). Maybe he is so introvert, that the expression does not fully materialize.

I feel the same. I considered Tuma's Bach quite a few times - a WTC on clavichord is not an every day occurrence - but shied away each time.

I was looking into Muffat's Apparatus Musico Organisticus as well, there are a few interesting options.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on October 08, 2013, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: Que on October 08, 2013, 09:35:13 PM
I feel the same. I considered Tuma's Bach quite a few times - a WTC on clavichord is not an every day occurrence - but shied away each time.

I was looking into Muffat's Apparatus Musico Organisticus as well, there are a few interesting options.

Q

Have you tried the orgelbuchlein que? The CU3 is on spotify so I can check that one myself sometime.

And the AoF -- am I the only one to find it impressive? I'll listen again carefully  to it tonight and try and say why I liked it.

I started to listen to his Pachelbel CD too and didn't get into it, that one is maybe not so good.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 09, 2013, 11:46:19 AM
Quote from: Que on October 08, 2013, 09:35:13 PM
I feel the same. I considered Tuma's Bach quite a few times - a WTC on clavichord is not an every day occurrence - but shied away each time.

Q

Being a completist I had to do more than just considering  ;) , but on the other hand I do not listen much to these CDs. Funny enough I find his WTC to be the most interesting part of the CDs. The Goldbergs (2 CD set) are recorded by him on harpsichord as well as on the clavichord, and the clavichord version is by far the most expressive IMO.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Wakefield on October 09, 2013, 05:15:27 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 09, 2013, 11:46:19 AM
Being a completist I had to do more than just considering  ;) , but on the other hand I do not listen much to these CDs. Funny enough I find his WTC to be the most interesting part of the CDs. The Goldbergs (2 CD set) are recorded by him on harpsichord as well as on the clavichord, and the clavichord version is by far the most expressive IMO.

I don't know exactly if I agree or not with your opinions.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Jaroslav Tůma as a clavichord player and fortepianist.

As a clavichord player, he simply has a perfect touch for this demonically delicate instrument. Actually, his WTC is one of my favorite versions of this collection because it reveals an intimate/homely side of this work as no other version. I also like his Goldbergs (I also prefer the version on clavichord) and the Sinfonias & Inventions (clavichord). As a fortepianist his Haydn (Last Seven Words) and Rejcha (36 Fugues for Fortepiano) are excellent, too.

But I recognize that full enjoyment of his style probably requires a certain preference for the-things-almost-said, a bit understated and also a sort of delectation in the moderately slow pace.

That said, I have never felt any interest for his interpretations as organist because some of the aforementioned features are transformed in a sort of heaviness when he plays this instrument.  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on October 09, 2013, 09:09:43 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 09, 2013, 05:15:27 PM
I don't know exactly if I agree or not with your opinions.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Jaroslav Tůma as a clavichord player and fortepianist.

As a clavichord player, he simply has a perfect touch for this demonically delicate instrument. Actually, his WTC is one of my favorite versions of this collection because it reveals an intimate/homely side of this work as no other version. I also like his Goldbergs (I also prefer the version on clavichord) and the Sinfonias & Inventions (clavichord). As a fortepianist his Haydn (Last Seven Words) and Rejcha (36 Fugues for Fortepiano) are excellent, too.

But I recognize that full enjoyment of his style probably requires a certain preference for the-things-almost-said, a bit understated and also a sort of delectation in the moderately slow pace.

That said, I have never felt any interest for his interpretations as organist because some of the aforementioned features are transformed in a sort of heaviness when he plays this instrument.  :)

That sounds encouraging! :) Il'll keep it in mind. I have my eye on the Rejcha Variations in particular.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 10, 2013, 02:08:39 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 09, 2013, 05:15:27 PM
I don't know exactly if I agree or not with your opinions.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Jaroslav Tůma as a clavichord player and fortepianist.

As a clavichord player, he simply has a perfect touch for this demonically delicate instrument. Actually, his WTC is one of my favorite versions of this collection because it reveals an intimate/homely side of this work as no other version. I also like his Goldbergs (I also prefer the version on clavichord) and the Sinfonias & Inventions (clavichord). As a fortepianist his Haydn (Last Seven Words) and Rejcha (36 Fugues for Fortepiano) are excellent, too.

But I recognize that full enjoyment of his style probably requires a certain preference for the-things-almost-said, a bit understated and also a sort of delectation in the moderately slow pace.

That said, I have never felt any interest for his interpretations as organist because some of the aforementioned features are transformed in a sort of heaviness when he plays this instrument.  :)

The degree of intimacy is very different in the different pieces of the WTC. This is f.i. reflected in the choices of instruments in Chorzempa´s and Levin´s sets, the formers choices representing the almost ideal choices IMO. In the most intimate pieces I favour the opininion that Tuma is unsurpassed in his delicate expression, and I have never felt him to be on the annoyingly slow side, in a way which holds the music too much back, contrary to Watchorn e.g., whom I find often kills the pulse of the music. My first impression of his French suites is similar to the view milk expressed in the Bach on harpsichord thread, so if I decide to purchase Watchorn´s Partitas, this will be an act in the name of the holy completism.

As to Tuma´s organ recordings I agree with you about his heaviness, particularly in the CÜ III, but also to some extent in the Orgelbüchlein. His AoF on the other hand, most of which I listened to yesterday following a short discussion with Mandryka, i did not find heavy at all. and not as I recalled. Actually I liked it, finding it noble and serious, two characteristics I think are obligatory for performances this work.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Wakefield on October 12, 2013, 07:50:32 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 10, 2013, 02:08:39 PM
[...] I have never felt him to be on the annoyingly slow side, in a way which holds the music too much back, contrary to Watchorn e.g., whom I find often kills the pulse of the music. My first impression of his French suites is similar to the view milk expressed in the Bach on harpsichord thread, so if I decide to purchase Watchorn´s Partitas, this will be an act in the name of the holy completism.

I agree about Tůma, but I deeply disagree on Watchorn.

It's true that the contrast between slow and fast suites is less sharp than usual, but the music anyway dances. I think -to many people- the real problem with Watchorn it's his own nature as performer: Quite intellectualized and a bit counterintuitive. "Easygoing" is not an adjective easily suitable for him.

Of course, I will order his Partitas very soon.  :)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on October 12, 2013, 10:21:07 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 10, 2013, 02:08:39 PM
The degree of intimacy is very different in the different pieces of the WTC. This is f.i. reflected in the choices of instruments in Chorzempa´s and Levin´s sets, the formers choices representing the almost ideal choices IMO. In the most intimate pieces I favour the opininion that Tuma is unsurpassed in his delicate expression, and I have never felt him to be on the annoyingly slow side, in a way which holds the music too much back, contrary to Watchorn e.g., whom I find often kills the pulse of the music. My first impression of his French suites is similar to the view milk expressed in the Bach on harpsichord thread, so if I decide to purchase Watchorn´s Partitas, this will be an act in the name of the holy completism.

As to Tuma´s organ recordings I agree with you about his heaviness, particularly in the CÜ III, but also to some extent in the Orgelbüchlein. His AoF on the other hand, most of which I listened to yesterday following a short discussion with Mandryka, i did not find heavy at all. and not as I recalled. Actually I liked it, finding it noble and serious, two characteristics I think are obligatory for performances this work.

I've only just noticed this post, premont. I'm glad you enjoyed that AoF more than you were expecting.

There are  a load of Tuma organ recordings on spotify, and my impression is that he is extremely variable, with some recordings which I really like (AoF, Muffat) and some which I like much less  (Pachelbel) - hard in fact to believe you're listening to the same guy. I may take a punt on his Orgelbüchlein.

Re Tuma vs. Chorzempa in WTC 1, the phrase "delicate expression" is spot on in the D minor prelude (bk 1) for example. I've only just started to listen to the Chorzempa WTC, and mostly in WTC2.  What I've enjoyed most from him is the clear vision of the voices all dancing a complicated dance with each other. I prefer Chorzempa to Tuma in the D minor fugue (bk1) .

On the other hand, In the E minor prelude of Bk 1 Chorzempa seems to play with tremedous delicacy and expressivelness.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 20, 2013, 09:36:22 PM
I have no idea what to make of this one.
[asin]B000A3XY6O[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on October 21, 2013, 07:38:37 AM
Quote from: milk on October 20, 2013, 09:36:22 PM
I have no idea what to make of this one.
[asin]B000A3XY6O[/asin]

Authentic performance of how Bach was played in Beethoven's era?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on January 01, 2015, 02:37:49 AM
A whole set (10 discs) by Kenneth Gilbert, anyone? :)

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028947942375.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Green Destiny on January 01, 2015, 02:46:40 AM
Quote from: Que on January 01, 2015, 02:37:49 AM
A whole set (10 discs) by Kenneth Gilbert, anyone? :)

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028947942375.jpg)

Q

I collected all the individual KG recordings in this set a few years ago - Its great this material is being re-issued. Worth it for the WTC version alone I think!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 01, 2015, 04:10:16 AM
If they've done any remastering that would be very interesting, some of his things were horribly recorded (D'Aglebert for example.)  The WTC is a bit bass light from memory.

Bulldog mentioned how much he liked the AoF a few weeks ago and so I went to listen to it and it is indeed outstanding.  For a harpsichord version. The chromatic Fantasy is really special too I think.

The style is often very refined, not quite studious but . . . I dunno, well balanced, no great sense of virtuoso free woooosh of imagination. I quite like that, I think it's a plus point.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on November 09, 2015, 10:46:27 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 17, 2013, 01:14:18 AM
I think Koopman and Egarr with time are going to make complete cycles.

Has Koopman made any harpsichord recordings recently? His Erato recordings include WTC, French Suites, Goldbergs, AoF, Italian Concerto and the Harpsichord concerti but they are about 20 years old or so, I believe.

Ross might have completed a Bach cycle had he lived longer: WTC 1+2, CÜ I,II,IV and a few fillers were recorded.

For whatever reason some labels preferred to split the corpus between different musicians: Archiv had Walcha, Kirkpatrick, Dreyfus in the 1950s-70s and Pinnock and Gilbert in the 1980s. The Teldec Bach 2000 had Curtis, Ross, Baumont, Wilson and probably another one or two. Hänssler mixed harpsichord and Lautenclavier with modern piano and used a half dozen musicians or so.

Verlets recordings must also be quite complete (but on 2 or more labels).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 09, 2015, 11:04:12 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 09, 2015, 10:46:27 AM
Has Koopman made any harpsichord recordings recently? His Erato recordings include WTC, French Suites, Goldbergs, AoF, Italian Concerto and the Harpsichord concerti but they are about 20 years old or so, I believe.

Yes, the partitas on his own label.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Partiten-BWV-825-830/hnum/1939979

And also the harpsichord/violin-sonatas and the Musical Offering on the same label.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on November 09, 2015, 11:27:45 AM
Reading through this thread, two recordings, among other things, caught my interest: Watchorn's WTC using a pedal harpsichord and Levin's with different instruments. I listened to the online samples of the former but could not really discover a different sound compared to a normal harpsichord. Are there passages in the online sample where one can hear the pedal?

The clavichord in Levin's WTC 1 does not sound very good on the samples (and on German amazon there is one reviewer who vastly prefers the 2nd book because the clavichord was supposedly captured better - unfortunately I find only sound samples for book 1).
Any comments on Levin's WTC, especially considering the clavichord sound?

I got to know most of Bach's keyboard music on the modern piano and I probably still tend to prefer it.

On harpsichord I have
Toccatas: Watchorn/Hänssler, Jaccottet/Intercord
Inventions/Sinfonias: Jaccottet/Intercord, Belder/Brilliant
French suites: Koopman
Ouverture b minor: Jaccottet, Pinnock
English suites: Rousset, Mustonen, half of Jaccottet
Partitas: 1/2/4/6 with Jaccottet, 1 with Pinnock. I lack a complete set on harpsichord. I used to have Rampe's but was not too fond and got rid of it in a "slim down the collection" phase. Ross's was recommended strongly to but it is oop now and too expensive used.
Goldbergs: Leonhardt/dhm, Dantone, Pinnock
WTK I: Jaccottet, Ross, Beausejour
WTK II: Jaccottet, Koopman, Dantone
AoF: Hill, Guillot/Naxos

I also have a two or three more of Hill's on Hänssler with Lautenclavier and arrangements of the violin partitas, a Staier disc with a few Toccatas and fillers and an anthology with Leonhardt playing two suites (after cello, lute), two toccatas, italian concerto etc, and now another anthology in that Leonhardt Legend box. Probably a few more "italian concertos" as well.

except for the complete partitas I don't really feel I am missing anything (I have no ambitions to listen to everything), but the WTC's mentioned above seem interesting enough to be worthwhile additions. Probably also another set of the French suites.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 09, 2015, 11:58:23 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 09, 2015, 11:27:45 AM
Any comments on Levin's WTC, especially considering the clavichord sound?

I have not felt bothered by this, so I shall need to relisten.

Quote from: Jo498
except for the complete partitas I don't really feel I am missing anything (I have no ambitions to listen to everything), but the WTC's mentioned above seem interesting enough to be worthwhile additions. Probably also another set of the French suites.

Concerning the Partitas I will recommend Suzuki (BIS) and Martin Gester (Ligia Digital). They are very different. While Suzuki is passionate (somewhat unusual for him), Gester is sweet and singing. These different attitudes are in a way complementary, and both work IMO well.

You already have my preferred version of the French suites (Koopman/Erato). How do you want another version to be? Brilliant? Elegant? Passionate? Intimate?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 09, 2015, 12:09:05 PM
Remember that there are only about four or five preludes and fugues in Levin's WTC 2 on clavichord.

I think, given your curiosity about clavichord, you should sample Colin Tilney's French Suites. And, though it's not clavichord, John Paul's. He use a lute harpsichord with some sort of system of leather headed hammers which, to my ears, sounds a little bit like a clavichord.

For a real serious conceptual difference from Koopman's, you may find Francesco Cera's French Suites stimulating. I was initially really negative about them but I've come to like them more and more, for the seriousness, and the variety of mood.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on November 09, 2015, 11:37:41 PM
Does anyone have a preference for Levin's book I or II? Because of that amazon review I tend to book 2 (but I can only listen to samples of 1...) Or what do you generally think about his mix of instruments? or about the very idea to mix them?

Thanks for the other recs, I'll look into them. From the samples I tend to prefer Suzuki to Gester in the partitas but unfortunately the sound of the harpsichord is often different/worse on the typical online samples than on the actual recordings.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: amw on November 10, 2015, 12:08:31 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 09, 2015, 11:27:45 AM
On harpsichord I have
Toccatas: Watchorn/Hänssler, Jaccottet/Intercord
Inventions/Sinfonias: Jaccottet/Intercord, Belder/Brilliant
French suites: Koopman
Ouverture b minor: Jaccottet, Pinnock
English suites: Rousset, Mustonen, half of Jaccottet
Partitas: 1/2/4/6 with Jaccottet, 1 with Pinnock. I lack a complete set on harpsichord. I used to have Rampe's but was not too fond and got rid of it in a "slim down the collection" phase. Ross's was recommended strongly to but it is oop now and too expensive used.
Goldbergs: Leonhardt/dhm, Dantone, Pinnock
WTK I: Jaccottet, Ross, Beausejour
WTK II: Jaccottet, Koopman, Dantone
AoF: Hill, Guillot/Naxos

Hmm. I also got to know Bach on the modern piano (mostly by playing it on a modern piano though, rather than listening). I have pretty limited recordings on harpsichord and I don't think I've listened to them in a while.

Goldbergs: Takashi Watanabe (I remember this as being sort of... mystical is the adjective that comes to mind, like entering a different plane of existence, idk)
French Suites: Christophe Rousset (iirc pretty high energy, unrealistically but entertainingly big sound, good feel for the rhythms)
English Suites: 2 & 6 with Pierre Hantaï, also feat. Italian Concerto (I don't remember much about this one, I mean it's Hantaï so probably not hard to guess, lol)
WTC I & II: Bob van Asperen (very straight and unaffected, attempting to let the notes speak for themselves. Effective for me, but some might find it boring)

I don't have the rest of the English Suites, or any of the Partitas, Inventions, Sinfonias, Toccatas, or the French Overture or Art of Fugue. I do have a disc of transcriptions (the Sonata BWV 965 after Reincken + the Concerto BWV 978 after Vivaldi + the possibly inauthentic Sonata BWV 964 after the Violin Sonata BWV 1003) played by Benjamin Alard which is very good indeed.

Might be in the market for recordings of the Inventions & Sinfonias and the Toccatas, as it doesn't look like I have any of those, even on modern piano.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 10, 2015, 01:32:57 AM
Thanks Mandryka for mentioning Tilney' s French suites, which I need to get, again.

Another recording on clavichord is this by Thurston Dart;

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Ismeron/JMSCD4

which many years ago was my first exposure to the French suites. Intimate but without repeats.

I consider Cera's French suites a hit or miss. Particularly I find his reflective allemandes totally besides the point.

As to John Paul's recordings on "lute-harpsichord" I tend to agree with the reviewer here:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/July10/Bach_LEMS8066.htm
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on November 10, 2015, 03:38:52 AM
The problem with clavichord is that I "have been burned" by almost all the recordings I tried (most famously the WTC II with Kirkpatrick) and I have a limited budget (financial, temporal and neural...) for to keep trying lots of things. So it's not really true that I am particularly interested in clavichord recordings. I am interested in the Levin WTC not mainly because it includes clavichord but because it is supposed to be interestingly different and seems to be well regarded by some people.

As for the French Suites, I am quite happy with Koopman, probably happier than with my 2,5 recordings of the English suites (+ another bunch on piano: Schiff, Perahia, Gould, 2+3 with Pogorelich and a few singles). Koopman's sound very nice (not percussive, but not too soft either), playful (with some additional ornaments but no exaggeration). I could imagine more "serious" interpretations but I am not so sure that those would fit the music. These are more playful and relaxed than the English suites. I find the English suites sometimes a little on the overly serious, not to say dour side. Actually, I could maybe need a more playful recording of the English suites before a more massive one of the French... ;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 10, 2015, 08:49:30 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 10, 2015, 01:32:57 AM
Thanks Mandryka for mentioning Tilney' s French suites, which I need to get, again.

Another recording on clavichord is this by Thurston Dart;

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Ismeron/JMSCD4

which many years ago was my first exposure to the French suites. Intimate but without repeats.

I consider Cera's French suites a hit or miss. Particularly I find his reflective allemandes totally besides the point.

As to John Paul's recordings on "lute-harpsichord" I tend to agree with the reviewer here:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/July10/Bach_LEMS8066.htm

If I remember right Dart's recording doesn't sound so good, but I know that many people think highly of it so I should listen again.

I wouldn't say that Cera's allemandes are all reflective. Some are, but they become less so as you move through the suites. In fact I think they tend to reflect (!) his view that the suites are a representation in music of a journey from trouble through prayer to salvation. I like it when performers dream up that sort of narrative for cycles - as with Egarr's English Suites. I think, basically, I'm more of a word person than a music person, so I like it when I have a story to cling on to. That's one reason why I'm so fascinated by choral preludes, and generally the whole business of finding secret codes in early music.

I don't agree with you or Veen about John Paul's French suites, though in fairness to Veen his example was from an English suite which I haven't heard. I don't think the music plods because he's so imaginative w.r.t,. rubato, which I think is quite expressive, and because the instrument is so colourful. The tempos are on the slow and mellow side, and it's rarely thrilling or exciting, but that's not a hardship for me, on the contrary. I don't find the instrument particularly tiresome, but I tend not to listen to more than one suite at a time.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 10, 2015, 08:58:54 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 10, 2015, 03:38:52 AM
The problem with clavichord is that I "have been burned" by almost all the recordings I tried (most famously the WTC II with Kirkpatrick) and I have a limited budget (financial, temporal and neural...) for to keep trying lots of things. So it's not really true that I am particularly interested in clavichord recordings. I am interested in the Levin WTC not mainly because it includes clavichord but because it is supposed to be interestingly different and seems to be well regarded by some people.

As for the French Suites, I am quite happy with Koopman, probably happier than with my 2,5 recordings of the English suites (+ another bunch on piano: Schiff, Perahia, Gould, 2+3 with Pogorelich and a few singles). Koopman's sound very nice (not percussive, but not too soft either), playful (with some additional ornaments but no exaggeration). I could imagine more "serious" interpretations but I am not so sure that those would fit the music. These are more playful and relaxed than the English suites. I find the English suites sometimes a little on the overly serious, not to say dour side. Actually, I could maybe need a more playful recording of the English suites before a more massive one of the French... ;)
I wouldn't explore clavichord WTC2s  if I were you. There is one by Jaroslav Tuma, but I'm not so keen on the interpretation.  I have Daniel Chorzempa's recording which uses clavichord sometimes, and I compared it to Tuma's and Levin's in one or two pieces and I enjoyed it much more - if you can sample some of that, you may find it worthwhile.

And you have a perfectly good harpsichord French Suites in Koopman, I'd say it's his best Bach harpsichord recording. I still think you should try to sample Tilney's (and indeed Cera's and indeed the one Don Satz used to rave about, the one by David Cates, which I also find myself liking more and more as I get to know it better and better  - I think seriousness fits the music well) They're on Qobuz and Spotify, so it surely can't be a great problem. Of course, whether you like it is another question, all I'm saying is that they're examples of alternative approaches which I've found stimulating.

You may be better off trying some clavichord Goldbergs. Tuma's good there I think.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 10, 2015, 10:22:06 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 10, 2015, 08:49:30 AM
If I remember right Dart's recording doesn't sound so good, but I know that many people think highly of it so I should listen again.

The sound is not good, but the playing is.

Quote from: Mandryka
.... the [French] suites are a representation in music of a journey from trouble through prayer to salvation.

I am more a music man than a man of words - or too earthbound, so statements like this tell me nothing at all.

Quote from: Mandryka
I don't agree with you or Veen about John Paul's French suites, though in fairness to Veen his example was from an English suite which I haven't heard. I don't think the music plods because he's so imaginative w.r.t,. rubato, which I think is quite expressive, and because the instrument is so colourful. The tempos are on the slow and mellow side, and it's rarely thrilling or exciting, but that's not a hardship for me, on the contrary. I don't find the instrument particularly tiresome, but I tend not to listen to more than one suite at a time.

There is no significant difference in Paul's interpretation of the French, English suites or Partita' s. I admit, that the French suites stand his treatement better than the other works, maybe because they are more intimate works. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 11, 2015, 05:01:20 AM
I think Levin's choice of instruments is enthralling. I love the clavichord ones. They really work where he used it. I even like the clunky fortepiano on his WTCII. The fugue in 873, for example, is rollicking! I never got hooked on Tuma or Tilney. If you want awesome pedal-harpsichord go for Biggs' trio sonatas. As the for French, I've long loved Van Asperen's quirky sticky charming harpsichord. Maybe VA is not a go-to recording since it's a bit idiosyncratic but I always head back to it. It charms me. I also quite like Brookshire (where has he gone?) and Moroney (a bit muscular?).   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on November 11, 2015, 05:25:58 AM
The Power Biggs is probably my only recording involving a pedal harpsichord. I love it but it does not really sound like historical (or faithfully reconstructed) instrument.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on November 11, 2015, 10:37:47 PM
This is a nice HIP disc with a pedal harpsichord:

[asin]B00006JST6[/asin]

Recommended!  :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 12, 2015, 03:18:13 AM
I recall liking this one but it's been a while.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71wZ8Pgl3EL._SX355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on November 13, 2015, 12:55:04 AM
thanks, but it seems that especially the Beausejour disc contains only organ works. As I am just trying to get deeper into real organ recordings of those, I'll rather skip the pedal harpsichord versions for now (also the prices of alpha and analekta are kind of steep...) Rechsteiner has several non-organ pieces (this one looks more enticing to me as far as the content). I wonder if he plays arrangements of the originally manualiter pieces or is "simply" doubling some bass notes with the pedal?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 13, 2015, 01:42:44 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 13, 2015, 12:55:04 AM
thanks, but it seems that especially the Beausejour disc contains only organ works. As I am just trying to get deeper into real organ recordings of those, I'll rather skip the pedal harpsichord versions for now (also the prices of alpha and analekta are kind of steep...) Rechsteiner has several non-organ pieces (this one looks more enticing to me as far as the content). I wonder if he plays arrangements of the originally manualiter pieces or is "simply" doubling some bass notes with the pedal?
It's the former. But I don't read music and someone can chime in and confirm. It's quite a good record now that I'm listening again. But the Biggs recording always amazes me with it's energy and precision, although the style and sound is not HIP.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Sammy on November 13, 2015, 02:51:25 PM
Quote from: milk on November 13, 2015, 01:42:44 PM
It's the former. But I don't read music and someone can chime in and confirm. It's quite a good record now that I'm listening again. But the Biggs recording always amazes me with it's energy and precision, although the style and sound is not HIP.

Yes, the Biggs Trio Sonatas disc is nothing less than amazing; passing it up because it's on pedal harpsichord would be a big mistake in my opinion.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 13, 2015, 11:06:25 PM
Rudolf Innig recorded a couple of trio sonatas on a pedal harpsichord, the instrument sounds more baroque than a Challis. Does anyone know what he used, I've lost the booklet?

The Bach pedal harpsichord recording which I've seen people rave about is by Anthony Newman, a Columbia LP. I've never heard it. I have never enjoyed anything played by Newman but people have such orgasms about this recording that if I could hear it for free I would.

Another one I have  is with some Bach and Buxtehude, an early recording by Lionel Rogg.

Watchorn recorded the whole of the WTC on one. Does anyone know why?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on November 14, 2015, 12:46:53 AM
As I mentioned somewhere the Power Biggs recording got me hooked on the Trio sonatas at a time when I found the very sound of the organ rather tedious. I am fond of that recording but it does sound very dry and not quite like historic harpsichords either.

As for Watchorn, apparently at least the a minor fugue in book I has "pedal notes" (and might have been an organ piece originally). Probably there are other pieces that would somehow benefit from doubled bass but overall the WTC is strictly manualiter for all I know so using the pedal harpsichord would need some re-arrangement or doubling of parts.

Newman seems regarded highly by some but I had his Handel suites and a bunch of Mozart sonatas and both were virtuosic and very fast but mostly charm and graceless, so I got rid of them.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 14, 2015, 05:24:15 AM
One thing Innig's CD has which I like very much is the partita BWV 768, O Jesu du elde gabe. He plays with natural sounding  rubato and with sensitivity to the emotional quality of each variation. It's somehow refreshing to hear this on a harpsichord, I don't know of any other recordings which aren't on organ.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Leo K. on January 30, 2016, 12:04:35 PM
I've been listening to Landowska's account of Book 2 of the WTC (with the infamous 1912 Pleyel keyboard). The sound of the Pleyel notwithstanding, her pacing (or agogic sense) has an elevated sense of the sublime. Once I start listening it's difficult to stop.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on January 31, 2016, 02:26:22 AM
Totally missed this recent release!  ???  Anyone already into the game? premont?  :)

[asin]B016DADXFO[/asin]
Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 31, 2016, 02:33:00 AM
Quote from: Que on January 31, 2016, 02:26:22 AM
Totally missed this recent release!  ???  Anyone already into the game? premont?  :)

[asin]B016DADXFO[/asin]
Q

No, not yet. Intended for my next JPC order.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: aukhawk on January 31, 2016, 05:22:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 13, 2015, 11:06:25 PM
Another one I have  is with some Bach and Buxtehude, an early recording by Lionel Rogg.

Another LP on the same label - Oryx - the Passacaglia & Fugue in C, and the Trio Sonata in E, played on pedal harpsichord by Nicholas Danby.

The passacaglia in particular is played with extreme broad tempo, with sonorous pedal notes beautifully (though closely) recorded.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518aGgsaHLL._SX300_.jpg)
The disc also incudes a couple of organ pieces.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 31, 2016, 05:56:12 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 31, 2016, 05:22:53 AM
Another LP on the same label - Oryx - the Passacaglia & Fugue in C, and the Trio Sonata in E, played on pedal harpsichord by Nicholas Danby.

The passacaglia in particular is played with extreme broad tempo, with sonorous pedal notes beautifully (though closely) recorded.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518aGgsaHLL._SX300_.jpg)
The disc also incudes a couple of organ pieces.

I used to own this LP long time ago. I found the interpretation of the passacaglia off-putting pedestrian.

BTW It can be downloaded in good mp3 quality here:

http://www.baroquemusiclibrary.com/727Web.html
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 31, 2016, 06:17:29 AM
This recording of the organ-triosonatas on pedal harpsichord (from the same webpage) is also rather interesting, even if the name of the performer may be faked:

http://www.baroquemusiclibrary.com/759Web.html
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 31, 2016, 08:15:02 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 31, 2016, 06:17:29 AM
This recording of the organ-triosonatas on pedal harpsichord (from the same webpage) is also rather interesting, even if the name of the performer may be faked:

http://www.baroquemusiclibrary.com/759Web.html

Good find. I listened to the 6th.  Attractive articulation and ornamentation.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 01, 2016, 02:57:19 AM
Does it seem like the output of HIP Bach keyboard music has slowed over the last year or two?

Anyone spent any time with this:
(http://d250ptlkmugbjz.cloudfront.net/images/covers/41/21/5425019972141_600.jpg) 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on February 01, 2016, 04:41:55 AM
Quote from: milk on February 01, 2016, 02:57:19 AM
Does it seem like the output of HIP Bach keyboard music has slowed over the last year or two?

Anyone spent any time with this:
(http://d250ptlkmugbjz.cloudfront.net/images/covers/41/21/5425019972141_600.jpg)

ah, yes. I have that. Somewhere... I remember fond thoughts... but honestly very fuzzy and far-away memories of thoughts they are.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2016, 07:21:28 AM
Quote from: milk on February 01, 2016, 02:57:19 AM
Does it seem like the output of HIP Bach keyboard music has slowed over the last year or two?

Anyone spent any time with this:
(http://d250ptlkmugbjz.cloudfront.net/images/covers/41/21/5425019972141_600.jpg)

Ugly, tough, brash, crude, loud.

That approach works better in Scarlatti, where they managed to sell it to me under the description of Duende. In Bach, I'm less open to what they're up to.

I didn't keep the booklet, but I'd be curious to know what they were trying to achieve.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2016, 07:44:34 AM
Quote from: milk on February 01, 2016, 02:57:19 AM
Does it seem like the output of HIP Bach keyboard music has slowed over the last year or two?



Not sure, I feel that there is a good supply of new Bach interpretations on record.  Maybe the spotlight is turning to other composers - to Sweelinck for example. It's astonishing the number of Sweelinck recordings there are.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on February 01, 2016, 08:52:19 AM
Quote from: milk on February 01, 2016, 02:57:19 AM
Does it seem like the output of HIP Bach keyboard music has slowed over the last year or two?

Anyone spent any time with this:
(http://d250ptlkmugbjz.cloudfront.net/images/covers/41/21/5425019972141_600.jpg)

Is it a reissue of this? :) AllMusic gives as recording date 1998, so it must be...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413P4KCKVAL.jpg)

Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2016, 07:21:28 AM
Ugly, tough, brash, crude, loud.

Though rather glorified in reviews, I found it rather dissapointing as well.
Crude is an apt description, but then again....I am not a fan of Skip Sempé anyway.... ::)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on February 01, 2016, 08:59:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2016, 07:21:28 AM
Ugly, tough, brash, crude, loud.

That approach works better in Scarlatti, where they managed to sell it to me under the description of Duende. In Bach, I'm less open to what they're up to.

I didn't keep the booklet, but I'd be curious to know what they were trying to achieve.

Not having heard their Bach CD, I can say that I own a Buxtehude CD with two works (Passacaglia d-minor and Chaconne e-minor) played by them, and the description ugly, tough, crude et.c. is just spot on. The CD contains by the way also some nicely played triosonatas by Buxtehude (DHM).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on February 01, 2016, 09:17:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2016, 07:44:34 AM
It's astonishing the number of Sweelinck recordings there are.

Yes, but except for the four more or less complete sets, the other rcordings share much the same small group of works.
I have since long ceased to count how many recordings I own of the Junges Leben variations or the Chromatic Fantasy.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on February 01, 2016, 12:01:13 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 01, 2016, 08:59:53 AM
Not having heard their Bach CD, I can say that I own a Buxtehude CD with two works (Passacaglia d-minor and Chaconne e-minor) played by them, and the description ugly, tough, crude et.c. is just spot on. The CD contains by the way also some nicely played triosonatas by Buxtehude (DHM).

Years ago a friend played that disc and presented the Passacaglia (or Chaconne) as "baroque heavy metal" (he liked it!) It is also played faster than most organ versions, I think. I have the disc (Abendmusik) but I do not remember the specifics, as you say, most of it is occupied by chamber pieces, not keyboard.

[asin]B000001TY5[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 01, 2016, 03:29:51 PM
Quote from: Que on February 01, 2016, 08:52:19 AM


Though rather glorified in reviews, I found it rather dissapointing as well.
Crude is an apt description, but then again....I am not a fan of Skip Sempé anyway.... ::)

Q
I love his Louis Couperin CD.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: North Star on April 21, 2016, 09:02:54 AM
I stumbled onto this just now on Youtube, a series of concert performances of all of Bach's works for harpsichord (and quite possibly clavichord, too) - featuring such artists as Benjamin Alard, Rinaldo Alessandrini, Bob van Asperen, Olivier Baumont, Céline Frisch, Pierre Hantaï, Blandine Rannou, Christine Schornsheim, and Kenneth Weiss, among others.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAVazGye4a3SHApqtJwOJvo9gjJ-yrMfV
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on August 22, 2016, 06:03:22 AM
(http://naive.fr/img/front/pho/works/1200x1200/006110.jpg)

I think this is a great find, Rinaldo Alessandrini playing some Bach preludes and fugues, came out last year, most of the music I don't know, I think taken from throughout Bach's life which gives a certain variety.

Anyway, he plays with lots of expression, but interestingly he varies it - hesitations salient in some pieces, ornaments in others, and that's nice. The truth is the music's so catchy and the performances so my sort of thing I can't stop playing it.

And continuing the Alessandrini theme I came across the first French suite hidden away here

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HJwwVNWuu_c/hqdefault.jpg)

And I think it is wonderfully melancholy.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on August 22, 2016, 05:16:03 PM
The "Italian Manner" CD has been packaged into this set
[asin]B005OZDYAY[/asin]
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71joYA2VmdL.jpg)
I seem to have missed the P&F disc.  That has been remedied, and my thanks to you.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Autumn Leaves on September 10, 2016, 08:58:22 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 16, 2013, 02:03:32 PM
Playing through Andras Schiff's 12 CD box of the major Bach keyboard works, and having Hewitt's complete traversal,  it struck me that while I have all of them on harpsichord, usually several times over, and have the Teldec box with various keyboardists contributing,  that I don't know who among harpsichordists has done a complete traversal (or at least a complete traversal of the "major" works).

So I am asking:

Who has done such a cycle on harpsichord?

And who among the alternatives (assuming there's more than one) would you suggest.


Boxed up neat and convenient would be ideal, but if I need to buy it in installments,  I will.

Came across this (to be released) box-set today:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91BuTKwNv7L._SL1418_.jpg)

Never heard of the artist before and couldn't find much discussion about her - I am definitely interested in this set (assuming in comes down in price a bit after release).
So just posting here in the hope that someone may have heard some/all of these recordings and may be able to tell me a bit more about them.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on September 11, 2016, 12:14:03 AM
Quote from: DSCH71 on September 10, 2016, 08:58:22 PM
Came across this (to be released) box-set today:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91BuTKwNv7L._SL1418_.jpg)

Never heard of the artist before and couldn't find much discussion about her - I am definitely interested in this set (assuming in comes down in price a bit after release).
So just posting here in the hope that someone may have heard some/all of these recordings and may be able to tell me a bit more about them.

Her various Bach has just been (or still is) being discussed in the Bach's Bungalow thread. I wasn't part of the discussion... but I can tell you that Ruzickova was at one point the leading lady of the harpsichord in her time (almost the Landowska of the 60/70s -- despite Czechoslovakia and the Nazis trying their best that it would never get that far...), that she is still alive, actually; that she's been the teacher of Hogwood and other harpsichord-greats, that she is the wife of Viktor Kalabis, whose music is very interesting and this connection made him write modern works for harpsichord (http://amzn.to/2cN04zh). (Love that linked-to, oop disc, which was my first or second encounter with her.) But I don't know any of her Bach, sadly... though I've almost convinced myself that I should seek it out, now.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Autumn Leaves on September 11, 2016, 12:45:20 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 11, 2016, 12:14:03 AM
Her various Bach has just been (or still is) being discussed in the Bach's Bungalow thread. I wasn't part of the discussion... but I can tell you that Ruzickova was at one point the leading lady of the harpsichord in her time (almost the Landowska of the 60/70s -- despite Czechoslovakia and the Nazis trying their best that it would never get that far...), that she is still alive, actually; that she's been the teacher of Hogwood and other harpsichord-greats, that she is the wife of Viktor Kalabis, whose music is very interesting and this connection made him write modern works for harpsichord (http://amzn.to/2cN04zh). (Love that linked-to, oop disc, which was my first or second encounter with her.) But I don't know any of her Bach, sadly... though I've almost convinced myself that I should seek it out, now.

Thanks for your response and the information about Ruzickova - by the way, you have helped me on a number of occasions so just wanted to say thanks for that! :)
I trawled the Bungalow thread but I wasn't able to get any more info on Ruzickova's recordings - it could be that the discussion you are remembering is even buried in this thread? (I admit I was a bit lazy and didn't read all of the thread before posting) so Ill poke around in this one a bit more later.
If I cant find any more info im happy to take one for the team and post some comments about the sound of the instrument(s) and suchlike after I purchase the set (I guess I was hoping to find out a bit more about this beforehand as the recordings seem to be quite old).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 11, 2016, 02:38:56 AM
Quote from: DSCH71 on September 10, 2016, 08:58:22 PM
Never heard of the artist [Zuzana Ruzickova] before and couldn't find much discussion about her - I am definitely interested in this set (assuming in comes down in price a bit after release).
So just posting here in the hope that someone may have heard some/all of these recordings and may be able to tell me a bit more about them.

I have owned her Erato WTC and also the four CDs in the TelDec big Bach box with the inventions and other smaller keyboard works.

She plays on equally tuned revival harpsichords (Neupert, Ammer). Her style is oldfashioned (1950s style) and she is lacking the brilliant colourfulness which makes Kirkpatrick's recordings attractive to day, and there is no sense of the determined urgency we find with Walcha, and her playing is generally less expressive than the playing of these two. I tend to find her boring and have not explored her recordings further.

Mandryka wrote here.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg993974.html#msg993974

about her second recording of the WTC, a description which (except for the use of a period instrument) IMO might have been a description of her older Erato recording. André and I responded to Mandryka's post later in the thread.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Autumn Leaves on September 11, 2016, 12:18:58 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 11, 2016, 02:38:56 AM
I have owned her Erato WTC and also the four CDs in the TelDec big Bach box with the inventions and other smaller keyboard works.

She plays on equally tuned revival harpsichords (Neupert, Ammer). Her style is oldfashioned (1950s style) and she is lacking the brilliant colourfulness which makes Kirkpatrick's recordings attractive to day, and there is no sense of the determined urgency we find with Walcha, and her playing is generally less expressive than the playing of these two. I tend to find her boring and have not explored her recordings further.

Mandryka wrote here.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg993974.html#msg993974

about her second recording of the WTC, a description which (except for the use of a period instrument) IMO might have been a description of her older Erato recording. André and I responded to Mandryka's post later in the thread.

Good stuff - thanks for your comments!.
Have had overnight to think about it some more and Im not so sure I will be purchasing this set after all - don't think I want to pick up 20 Discs of Harpsichord recordings which are a bit old-fashioned (and most importantly I think the sound quality wont be up to modern standards either) so Ill probably give it a miss.
Its a shame as I don't know of any other boxes of Bach's complete keyboard works played on the Harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: North Star on September 11, 2016, 01:08:12 PM
Quote from: DSCH71 on September 11, 2016, 12:18:58 PM
Good stuff - thanks for your comments!.
Have had overnight to think about it some more and Im not so sure I will be purchasing this set after all - don't think I want to pick up 20 Discs of Harpsichord recordings which are a bit old-fashioned (and most importantly I think the sound quality wont be up to modern standards either) so Ill probably give it a miss.
Its a shame as I don't know of any other boxes of Bach's complete keyboard works played on the Harpsichord.
There's this set on Brilliant. I don't know the recordings myself. How much of the repertoire do you have on disc now, Conor?

[asin]B0001NPU1K[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 11, 2016, 01:42:47 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 11, 2016, 01:08:12 PM
There's this set on Brilliant. I don't know the recordings myself. How much of the repertoire do you have on disc now, Conor?

[asin]B0001NPU1K[/asin]

This set contains Leon Berben's WTC which is utterly forgettable.
And Joseph Paynes French suites which are so-so.
The rest of the content ranges from good to excellent.
Particularly fine are Pieter-Jan Belders Partitas, Clavierübung II and Menno van Delft's Art of Fugue.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Autumn Leaves on September 11, 2016, 10:44:53 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 11, 2016, 01:08:12 PM
There's this set on Brilliant. I don't know the recordings myself. How much of the repertoire do you have on disc now, Conor?

[asin]B0001NPU1K[/asin]

Wow thanks I seem to have missed this set - its not too expensive either.
As far as Bach's keyboard works go I am approaching completion on Piano and just missing the French Suites for Harpsichord.
I don't really need a box to fill in the gaps I guess but I would like to have some alternative performances.
So maybe I will pick up this box...

Quote from: (: premont :) on September 11, 2016, 01:42:47 PM
This set contains Leon Berben's WTC which is utterly forgettable.
And Joseph Paynes French suites which are so-so.
The rest of the content ranges from good to excellent.
Particularly fine are Pieter-Jan Belders Partitas, Clavierübung II and Menno van Delft's Art of Fugue.

Thanks again for your input Premont - Ive got a few good performances of the WTC so a bad one in the box shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Good to know most of it is worthwhile though.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on September 11, 2016, 11:21:13 PM
Maybe it is possible to find some of the Brilliant volumes separately (I have Inventions/Sinfonias+fillers with Belder but got rid of his Goldbergs I found decent but a little staid and not that special in a crowded field). I'd also say that all those "Kleine Präludien" etc. are probably not really essential, except for completists.

There should be plenty of good recordings to chose from for Inventions/Sinfonias, Clavierübung, French and English Suites, Toccatas, WTC, Art of Fuge etc.

The Hänssler Bach edition also has very good recordings of some earlier/lesser works like the concerto arrangements (I think Robert Hill playing)

Christiane Jaccottet also recorded (almost) everything and some of it is/was cheaply available in several guises but probably hard to find.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Autumn Leaves on September 11, 2016, 11:45:55 PM
Buying the parts of the Bach Edition separately is certainly an option - I was able to find these 2 boxes on Amazon and a second hand copy of both would not set me back too much:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51LOGcEKt2L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51DS5562eRL.jpg)

Its certainly something to think about - I guess I will see how far I go with my latest interest in Bach: I could burn out after just a few days or a week so maybe the best option might just be to pick up a copy of the French Suites as that's all I really need if pushed.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on September 12, 2016, 12:51:54 AM
I'd trust premont (who is very knowledgeable here and does not have too narrow tastes) when he dis-recommends the French suites with Payne.
I only have one complete harpsichord recording of those suites, Koopman/Erato, but it is beautiful and on a single disc. You'd have to get it on the used market, like Amazon marketplace, though.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on September 12, 2016, 12:59:11 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 12, 2016, 12:51:54 AM
I'd trust premont (who is very knowledgeable here and does not have too narrow tastes) when he dis-recommends the French suites with Payne.
I only have one complete harpsichord recording of those suites, Koopman/Erato, but it is beautiful and on a single disc. You'd have to get it on the used market, like Amazon marketplace, though.

Though i'm a bit behind on the latest developments, superb performances of the French Suites are by Alan Curtis  (Warner/Teldec) and Olivier Baumont (Warner/Erato).

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on September 12, 2016, 01:12:00 AM
Quote from: Que on September 12, 2016, 12:59:11 AM
Though i'm a bit behind on the latest developments, superb performances of the French Suites are by Alan Curtis  (Warner/Teldec) and Olivier Baumont (Warner/Erato).

Q

The most amazing French Suties I know are those of Rousset on Ambroise (see: Harpsichord Like Rarely Ever (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/11/harpsichord-like-rarely-ever.html) and Best Recordings of 2010 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/best-recordings-of-2010-1.html), where the re-issue of the three Rousset recordings: English Suites, French Suites, and his stunning Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach are combined. But one has to be able to love the blooming, huge sound. I also like Bob von Asperen II  (http://amzn.to/2cSA3Br) (Aeolus, oop?) and Olivier Baumont (http://amzn.to/2cPWXX4), but my next-favorites would be Blandine Rannou (http://amzn.to/2cdVw9i) (also re-issued in a box of the English and French Suites and Toccatas (http://amzn.to/2cSzFTs)... which is particularly good, because I like her English Suites and Toccatas perhaps still better, even.) It might be reasonably to hope for a re-issue of each of those, since Alpha is keen on getting all the good Zig-Zag stuff out under the new label/brand. I've not quite clicked with Richard Eggarr's new recording... but I think that's my fault, so far.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on September 12, 2016, 01:29:05 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 12, 2016, 01:12:00 AM
The most amazing French Suties I know are those of Rousset on Ambroise (see: Harpsichord Like Rarely Ever (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/11/harpsichord-like-rarely-ever.html) and Best Recordings of 2010 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/best-recordings-of-2010-1.html), where the re-issue of the three Rousset recordings: English Suites, French Suites, and his stunning Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach are combined. But one has to be able to love the blooming, huge sound. I also like Bob von Asperen II  (http://amzn.to/2cSA3Br) (Aeolus, oop?) and Olivier Baumont (http://amzn.to/2cPWXX4), but my next-favorites would be Blandine Rannou (http://amzn.to/2cdVw9i) (also re-issued in a box of the English and French Suites and Toccatas (http://amzn.to/2cSzFTs)... which is particularly good, because I like her English Suites and Toccatas perhaps still better, even.) It might be reasonably to hope for a re-issue of each of those, since Alpha is keen on getting all the good Zig-Zag stuff out under the new label/brand. I've not quite clicked with Richard Eggarr's new recording... but I think that's my fault, so far.

I hesitated to include  Rousset, which I have and like very much.
But I think ultimately it is an acquired taste on account of the incredible speed Rousset is playing.
A performance where the virtuosic element is very prominent and is very personal to Rousset - you either love or hate it.  :D

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: HIPster on September 12, 2016, 08:10:59 AM
I'll offer up Brookshire's French Suites~

[asin]B00005OCYW[/asin]

Somewhat under the radar; I find it to be excellent. :)

I also like the Curtis recording.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 12, 2016, 01:54:03 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 12, 2016, 12:51:54 AM
I'd trust premont (who is very knowledgeable here and does not have too narrow tastes) when he dis-recommends the French suites with Payne.
I only have one complete harpsichord recording of those suites, Koopman/Erato, but it is beautiful and on a single disc. You'd have to get it on the used market, like Amazon marketplace, though.

Actually Koopman's French suites is my favorite recording of these works, played in the very spirit of the suites and with decent additions in the repeats without his usual "naughty" tendencies. I also favour the very "French" interpretation of Alan Curtis. There are a lot of other fine recordings, Gilbert, Rannou, Mortensen, van Asperen and Beaumont to name a few.

Colin Tilney on clavichord and Wolfgang Rübsam on piano are well worth exploring in an early phase of acquaintance with these works.

On the other hand Rousset, Brookshire, Cates and even Cera are hit or miss and should not (IMO) be first choices.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 12, 2016, 09:38:53 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 12, 2016, 01:54:03 PM
Actually Koopman's French suites is my favorite recording of these works, played in the very spirit of the suites and with decent additions in the repeats without his usual "naughty" tendencies. I also favour the very "French" interpretation of Alan Curtis. There are a lot of other fine recordings, Gilbert, Rannou, Mortensen, van Asperen and Beaumont to name a few.

Colin Tilney on clavichord and Wolfgang Rübsam on piano are well worth exploring in an early phase of acquaintance with these works.

On the other hand Rousset, Brookshire, Cates and even Cera are hit or miss and should not (IMO) be first choices.

I think you may well enjoy Julian Perkins.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 12, 2016, 11:46:19 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 12, 2016, 09:38:53 PM
I think you may well enjoy Julian Perkins.

He is on my coming purchase list.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Wakefield on September 13, 2016, 05:41:58 AM
Not usually mentioned, but I consider Masaaki Suzuki did a very good job on the French Suites
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jlaurson on September 13, 2016, 06:00:52 AM
Quote from: Gordo on September 13, 2016, 05:41:58 AM
Not usually mentioned, but I consider Masaaki Suzuki did a very good job on the French Suites.

Seconded, come to think of it. A lot more subtlety than his (admittedly exciting) GVs, which do have an element of sewing machine to them.

Cross-posting from "Listenign Now"

BTW:

This is AMAZING!!! The best Buxtehude Capricciosa I've heard and a sound in both works that rivals Rousset on Ambroise, without being so ludicrous over-the-top.

Quote from: jlaurson on September 09, 2016, 12:12:42 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cr5O0TcVYAUBQfT.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Bach's #GoldbergVariations w/Christine Schornsheim then & now. On @S... http://ift.tt/2cpNt7r  (http://amzn.to/2c2PHZv)



Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: hpowders on September 14, 2016, 04:46:14 PM
I don't care for Bach played on piano. I DO love Bach performed on harpsichord.  :)

As for clavichord, one can hardly hear it!!  ;D

Specifically for the keyboard partitas, I prefer Trevor Pinnock, Christophe Rousset, Benjamin Alard and Kenneth Weiss, all on harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Autumn Leaves on September 15, 2016, 12:02:22 AM
Quote from: HIPster on September 12, 2016, 08:10:59 AM
I'll offer up Brookshire's French Suites~

[asin]B00005OCYW[/asin]

Somewhat under the radar; I find it to be excellent. :)

I also like the Curtis recording.

Thanks for your posting - this one looks very nice and not too expensive either.
I will pick up a copy soon - thanks for the tip! :D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: HIPster on September 15, 2016, 06:54:37 PM
Quote from: Conor71 on September 15, 2016, 12:02:22 AM
Thanks for your posting - this one looks very nice and not too expensive either.
I will pick up a copy soon - thanks for the tip! :D

Right on Conor!  ;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on September 23, 2016, 09:52:41 AM
I grabbed a used (but apparently well-preserved) copy of Vol.9 of Teldec's BACH 2000 edition for less than EUR 10 (11 discs)... :D I had been looking for this a while ago but as the item I wanted most of all was only Ross' partitas I was not willing to pay typical prices of ca. 30 EUR although this would have been a fair deal for 11 discs...

It has Ruzickova in the inventions/sinfonias and a bunch of odd suites not belonging to any set, Ross' Partitas, Wilson's WTK and Curtis' French/English suites... I guess this is enough for a while!

(And while I was at it I got the Koopman complete organ set (16 discs) for about 6 EUR :D :D :D from the same source... only disadvantage are the huge cubic boxes.)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 23, 2016, 01:23:33 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 23, 2016, 09:52:41 AM
I grabbed a used (but apparently well-preserved) copy of Vol.9 of Teldec's BACH 2000 edition for less than EUR 10 (11 discs)... :D I had been looking for this a while ago but as the item I wanted most of all was only Ross' partitas I was not willing to pay typical prices of ca. 30 EUR although this would have been a fair deal for 11 discs...

It has Ruzickova in the inventions/sinfonias and a bunch of odd suites not belonging to any set, Ross' Partitas, Wilson's WTK and Curtis' French/English suites... I guess this is enough for a while!

(And while I was at it I got the Koopman complete organ set (16 discs) for about 6 EUR :D :D :D from the same source... only disadvantage are the huge cubic boxes.)

You have some very good things there I think: the Koopman and Wilson and I certainly enjoy the Curtits too. I bet you will enjoy Koopman's Leipzig Chorales.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on September 24, 2016, 12:57:08 AM
Comments on the Koopman have been mixed, some people don't seem to be so fond of this set. I did not have this on my list, mainly because I already had the incomplete 6 Novalis/Brilliant discs so more Koopman was not a priority. But as Curtis English/French were mentioned recently here, I searched again for several issues of these recordings and then for the volumes of the Bach 2000 edition because I remembered that the Ross and Wilson were also in that volume 9 (and they are much harder to find separately) and accidentally found the irrestible deal on the Koopman..
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2016, 01:16:44 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 24, 2016, 12:57:08 AM
Comments on the Koopman have been mixed, some people don't seem to be so fond of this set. I did not have this on my list, mainly because I already had the incomplete 6 Novalis/Brilliant discs so more Koopman was not a priority. But as Curtis English/French were mentioned recently here, I searched again for several issues of these recordings and then for the volumes of the Bach 2000 edition because I remembered that the Ross and Wilson were also in that volume 9 (and they are much harder to find separately) and accidentally found the irrestible deal on the Koopman..

What's the problem supposed to be with those Koopman recordings? I like the Novalis too.

I'll be interested to know what you make of the Ross partitas (I'm not a fan)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on September 30, 2016, 07:52:42 AM
What is it about the suites outside the collections?

There are 3 suites in the abovementioned Bach 2000 box: 818a, 819, 821 (played by Ruzickova). The last one is spurious and if authentic supposedly very early. The first two in E flat major and a minor were apparently in a manuscript together with the French suite but not copied in the collection that then made up the so-called French suites. I found probable dates of early 1720 for the 819, for the 818 either similar or early (ca. 1705). I discovered that I had 818/19 already with Hill on a Haenssler vol. (Bach as teacher). They seem to be rather infrequently played and recorded. At least the 819 does not seem all that different or weaker than the French suites.
Hill plays a prelude 815a with 819(a) This prelude appears together with the French suite 815 in that manuscript. It would be nice to have the prelude with that suite in a recording (none of mine does but I bet some do).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 30, 2016, 08:45:14 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 30, 2016, 07:52:42 AM
What is it about the suites outside the collections?

There are 3 suites in the abovementioned Bach 2000 box: 818a, 819, 821 (played by Ruzickova). The last one is spurious and if authentic supposedly very early. The first two in E flat major and a minor were apparently in a manuscript together with the French suite but not copied in the collection that then made up the so-called French suites. I found probable dates of early 1720 for the 819, for the 818 either similar or early (ca. 1705). I discovered that I had 818/19 already with Hill on a Haenssler vol. (Bach as teacher). They seem to be rather infrequently played and recorded. At least the 819 does not seem all that different or weaker than the French suites.
Hill plays a prelude 815a with 819(a) This prelude appears together with the French suite 815 in that manuscript. It would be nice to have the prelude with that suite in a recording (none of mine does but I bet some do).

One I like is 823
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on December 08, 2016, 10:17:48 AM
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1650/25811137175_b3ab328a2a_b.jpg)

I've been listening to Blandine Verlet play The French Suites.

She is (not surprisingly) at great pains to bring out the emotional life of the music, as if these suites are a study in music of all the ways we can feel love.

That seems perfectly appropriate to me, given that the French Suites are, at least in my head, a present for his new wife Anna Magdalena. Verlet pulls it off without ever making the music sound tense, and without ever ceasing to be intimate and domestic.

The harpsichord is by Anthony Sidley. It sounds perfect in this music,

There are a huge number of recordings of these suites. I think this is one of the ones which is really outstanding.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on December 10, 2016, 07:26:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 08, 2016, 10:17:48 AM
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1650/25811137175_b3ab328a2a_b.jpg)

I've been listening to Blandine Verlet play The French Suites.

She is (not surprisingly) at great pains to bring out the emotional life of the music, as if these suites are a study in music of all the ways we can feel love.

That seems perfectly appropriate to me, given that the French Suites are, at least in my head, a present for his new wife Anna Magdalena. Verlet pulls it off without ever making the music sound tense, and without ever ceasing to be intimate and domestic.

The harpsichord is by Anthony Sidley. It sounds perfect in this music,

There are a huge number of recordings of these suites. I think this is one of the ones which is really outstanding.
How about her partitas?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on December 10, 2016, 07:54:06 AM
Quote from: milk on December 10, 2016, 07:26:33 AM
How about her partitas?

I put some comments on a couple of partitas from the Astrée set on a thread somewhere here just last week.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on December 10, 2016, 08:20:14 AM
Most of her Astrée recordings seem to be oop and rather expensive used. I remember that 4 years ago or so when I was more active on ebay there was some seeling huge amount of harpsichord and organ recordings (probably the collection of a professional or very serious collector) and lots of those were included but even on ebay used they were not bargains, so I didn't get any.
Likewise, of the Philips/Polygram solo recordings only the partitas seem to available on CD...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 08, 2017, 08:09:02 PM
Hi, I just found this forum accidentally last week.
I envy you, I have been looking for the CD for a reasonable price.
I used to listen these works at Youtube and Spotify, but they are removed now.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 23, 2011, 12:21:20 PM
Agreed. This is one of my favourite GL records.

The CD I have is this one .

(http://i1.fastpic.ru/big/2010/0131/65/ed00460c31d8722a97a389f653e1f165.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 08, 2017, 09:12:15 PM
Concerti transcriptions by Pieter Dirksen has been my favorite for years.
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 11, 2016, 01:42:47 PM
This set contains Leon Berben's WTC which is utterly forgettable.
And Joseph Paynes French suites which are so-so.
The rest of the content ranges from good to excellent.
Particularly fine are Pieter-Jan Belders Partitas, Clavierübung II and Menno van Delft's Art of Fugue.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on March 09, 2017, 01:43:17 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 08, 2017, 09:12:15 PM
Concerti transcriptions by Pieter Dirksen has been my favorite for years.

Mine too.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 09, 2017, 05:42:00 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 09, 2017, 01:43:17 AM
Mine too.

Full of elegance, cuteness and sexyness.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 10, 2017, 03:40:07 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 09, 2017, 05:42:00 AM
Full of elegance, cuteness and sexyness.

Don't forget his AoF!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-g5mT8p00o
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 10, 2017, 07:24:43 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 10, 2017, 03:40:07 PM
Don't forget his AoF!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-g5mT8p00o
I apologize for my ignorance, I did not know this version.
Wow, very unique, classy, and stylish!
Also I like the recording sound, which is not too friendly.
Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 10, 2017, 08:30:07 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 10, 2017, 07:24:43 PM
I apologize for my ignorance, I did not know this version.
Wow, very unique, classy, and stylish!
Also I like the recording sound, which is not too friendly.
Thanks a lot.

He also has a Goldberg which I haven't really listened to, but plan on doing so.

Dirksen is in general an excellent musician - I've enjoyed his contributions to the Glossa and NM Sweelinck sets (BTW, the NM set is now on spotify, and I urge you to check it out), his Scheidemann, and his Bohm. His Louis Couperin organ works is on my shortlist.

His youtube channel is here. He regularly posts parts of his recordings and concerts.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpd9NEO9skgjQY3ptBTCYpg
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 10, 2017, 08:30:38 PM
Quote from: Que on November 03, 2007, 02:46:35 AM
Just got this.
And to introduce another period keyboard instrument on this thread: it's played on a pedal harpsichord (http://www.harpsichord.org.uk/pedal/pedalharpsichord.htm).
The pedal harpsichord used here consists actually of two harpsichords - one mounted on the other, the lower one played with pedals to create the bass line. Further details at the link. To quote JoshLilly: what a sound!  :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3760014190278.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/6962447?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist) (http://www.harpsichord.org.uk/pedal/clavecin-Macheret.jpg)
click picture for clips

Yves Rechsteiner plays the Chromatic Fantasia, two of the Trio Sonatas and various transcriptions of Bach's music for violin solo. The instrument sounds impressive and is superbly recorded. When played at reasonable volume the effect can be as overwhelming as the sound of an organ and in fact does bear some similarities.

The playing is excellent, Rechsteiner is a very fine harpsichordist indeed. Would like to hear more of him.
He is the hands-on-and-not-to-linger type of player. Swift and clearly articulated, poetic if needed.
From the works played, I like the "added" effect of the pedal harpsichord best in the Trio Sonatas and the transcriptions. In the Chromatic Fantasia it does seem a touch overbearing sometimes.

This is a marvelous disc and recommended for anyone who is experienced in Bach harpsichord recordings and would like some alternative flavour.  :)

Q

Yes, I like the recording a lot. His Della Ciaja is pretty good too.

Quote from: Geo Dude on February 14, 2012, 08:36:35 AM
Based on a first listen yesterday this is a wonderful recording:

[asin]B004IZAEQS[/asin]

I ordered it based on a glowing review in a back issue of ARG and a fascination with pedal harpsichords.  I was a bit skeptical about the program, initially, since there were a few excerpted works in there (toccata without fugue, etc.), and about the interpretation, which I felt may be a bit clinical, but the disc is amazing.  The end result sounds like a brilliant organist attempting a take on a different instrument and loses none of the profoundness or passion of the works played on the organ, and certainly manages to maintain a great beauty, albeit, a different kind from what you get with an organ.  I heartily recommend it to harpsichord fanatics and to organ fanatics that don't mind a harpsichord.

Not sure, just like his WTC, the performance is colorless and lacking aesthetic dynamics


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2017, 08:36:45 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 10, 2017, 03:40:07 PM
Don't forget his AoF!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-g5mT8p00o

You can get the whole thing from his website, I like it a lot.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 10, 2017, 08:57:39 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 10, 2017, 08:30:07 PM
He also has a Goldberg which I haven't really listened to, but plan on doing so.

Dirksen is in general an excellent musician - I've enjoyed his contributions to the Glossa and NM Sweelinck sets (BTW, the NM set is now on spotify, and I urge you to check it out), his Scheidemann, and his Bohm. His Louis Couperin organ works is on my shortlist.

His youtube channel is here. He regularly posts parts of his recordings and concerts.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpd9NEO9skgjQY3ptBTCYpg

Thank you for the info.
Totally I agree with you. Dirksen (and Belder) is a great artist.
His GV is classy and elegant though I am not a big fan of GV in general.
Plus, his Sonata for Viola and Harpsichord is great as well.

Thank you, Mandryka, too.

https://youtu.be/nqZWxlpQkJ4
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on March 11, 2017, 09:55:27 AM
Interesting comment here from Rubsam on his WTC

Quote from: Wolfgang Rubsam here https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/biographyThe Lautenwerk is the perfect instrument because of its overall warm, lilting color that does not rely on either manual or stop changes, allowing the intense individuality of each measure to be retained, while remaining interesting at all times--never predictable.

In my view this rich and inevitable music needs to be unpredictable. More to the point, each voice of the polyphony must be able to sing and interact to fully express Bach's complex linear architecture. Furthermore, even after repeated listening to the same track, listeners should perceive yet more beauty in matters of elegance, individuality, rhythmic complexity, ornamentation and overall color of interpretation by virtue of total independence of voices interacting

In Bach's music, polyphony creates the harmonic architecture and color, not the other way around.  This is clearly and often significantly misunderstood by even serious keyboard players worldwide. The complex interaction of singing voices that results in this recording is what I refer to as a "horizontal interpretation", as opposed to what seems to have become the run-of-the-mill finger-oriented vertical/chordal/harmonic/mechanical approach to performance, of what J.S. Bach clearly meant us to understand and communicate.  I hope that this recording helps to counter this misunderstanding and serve as a vehicle to assist and re-orient the cultural "inner ear" for Bach and for early music in general. Perhaps beyond that it may encourage further the art of elegant ornamentation especially, but not exclusively in pieces having repeat sections. This skill is not limited to just adding trills but in fact includes all kinds of flourishes, especially in sequence patterns and in many cadences of the Well Tempered Clavier.

Last but not least, I invite each listener to focus with eyes shut on each independent voice and discover how the music embraces the heart and mind.

Listening to his harpsichord AoF today, I was impressed by how the fugues give the impression of two or three lutes playing. I think it may well be the most interesting harpsichord AoF since Leonhardt (DHM). The tone of the harpsichord he uses is very warm, I've not checked to see whether it's the same as the one he used for WTC.  The WTC one has this interesting feature

QuoteIt has only one manual, with one set of gut strings and two sets of jacks to pluck the same 8' set of gut strings in two different places: one, positioned farther from the nut, for producing a flutey, hooty sound and the other, closer to the nut, for a more nasal timbre. This present lautenwerk also has a brass 4' set of strings that are there purely for the sympathetic vibration, similar to the effect heard on a Viola d'Amore. That set of 4' brass strings adds the aliquot "halo" effect because it causes the rather dry sound of the gut strings to have much more of a singing quality. Thus one might be tempted to call this lautenwerk a "Lautenwerk d'Amore".
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on March 11, 2017, 03:29:38 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 10, 2017, 08:30:38 PM
Yes, I like the recording a lot. His [Rechsteiner's] Della Ciaja is pretty good too.

Certainly, and so is Derung's. But I think Cremonesi brings out the phantastic elements (mostly in the toccata's) in the most interesting way.


Quote from: Forever Electoral College
Not sure, just like his WTC, the performance is colorless and lacking aesthetic dynamics

However Beausejour accumulates lots of energy in his playing on this pedalharpsichord CD, as he does in the recording of the passacaglia BWV582, which he has uploaded to YouTube (I do not care for his WTC).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 11, 2017, 10:01:38 PM
Yes I like Cremonesi's passionate version as well. The recording sound is a little rough, but I like it too.  I will listen Luc B more carefully.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 12, 2017, 03:07:05 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 11, 2017, 09:55:27 AM
Interesting comment here from Rubsam on his WTC

Listening to his harpsichord AoF today, I was impressed by how the fugues give the impression of two or three lutes playing. I think it may well be the most interesting harpsichord AoF since Leonhardt (DHM). The tone of the harpsichord he uses is very warm, I've not checked to see whether it's the same as the one he used for WTC.  The WTC one has this interesting feature

Agreed - I love it. In the WTC, the rubato occasionally gets in the way (a la Pamela Ruiter Feenstra), but it's excellent in the AoF.
But I think I might get used to the rubato in WTC after a few listens -- who knows?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on March 13, 2017, 08:23:00 PM
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Crossland-K05a%5BDivine-Art-CD%5D.jpg)
I've been loving this for a long time. There's nothing quite like it save Levinson's WTC (in terms of the choice of instrument).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on March 13, 2017, 09:43:20 PM
Quote from: milk on March 13, 2017, 08:23:00 PM
Levinson's WTC

What?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on March 14, 2017, 12:19:37 AM
maybe Robert Levin who uses a fortepiano in some pieces (I think only in WTC II)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on March 14, 2017, 07:17:28 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 13, 2017, 09:43:20 PM
What?
Ah. Levin, yes. Not that the playing is related. But Bach on Fortepiano is rare.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 25, 2017, 10:30:11 PM
I like the colorfulness of Concerto Transcriptions. Personally, I prefer the Transcriptions and Inventions and Sinfonias to Goldberg. To me, ironically, GV lack variation.

Quote from: Bulldog on August 02, 2011, 10:14:59 AM
Those reviews I did took a huge number of hours; most folks don't want to devote so much time to one work or body of works.

I have to admit that, even if I was still doing those long reviews, I wouldn't tackle the harpsichord concertos.  You have to possess great love for music that you listen to for dozens of hours.  That wasn't any problem for me with works such the Goldbergs and WTC, but I would tire of the concertos long beftore the review process was concluded; that's exactly what happened to me when I tried it with the Brandenburgs.

Quote from: Bulldog on October 05, 2011, 08:51:07 PM
The best I can figure, there have been 13 new recordings of the Partitas in the last six years, 7 for the French Suites and 53 for the Goldbergs.

Concerning the concerto transcriptions, I'm not a big fan and definitely prefer Bach's Toccatas.


Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 10, 2011, 10:10:00 AM
Ha, in that case, yeah, they are fairly minor works, most of which are probably best heard in the original format anyway (those of Vivaldi for instance). The exception is the bwv 1065, where Bach actually improves on the original.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 25, 2017, 10:40:43 PM
Quote from: Que on September 19, 2011, 09:51:47 PM
Indeed it is the same, Dave.  :)

I don't know the set by Elizabeth Farr, wasn't even aware of its existence.
I have the complete set of arranged concertos by Peter Watchorn - pictured below. Solid, serviceable performances in comparison to Baumont's utter elegance and charm.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ilr2U8l4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Q

Farr, not solid. Watchorn, fair but not vivacious. I like Dirksen and Yates. Dreyfus is not bad either.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on March 25, 2017, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 25, 2017, 10:40:43 PM
Farr, not solid. Watchorn, fair but not vivacious. I like Dirksen and Yates. Dreyfus is not bad either.

And what about Beaumont / Barchi ?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 25, 2017, 11:45:21 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 25, 2017, 11:34:23 PM
And what about Beaumont / Barchi ?
I have not listened them. I should!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on March 26, 2017, 12:15:09 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 25, 2017, 10:40:43 PM
Farr, not solid. Watchorn, fair but not vivacious. I like Dirksen and Yates. Dreyfus is not bad either.

I am generally not a fan of Elizabeth Farr, I also agree on Watchorn's recording - the sparkle is missing there....

I need to seek out Pieter Dirksen... :) Olivier Baumont is absolutely brilliant, though just a single disc.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 26, 2017, 01:08:12 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 12, 2017, 03:07:05 PM
Agreed - I love it. In the WTC, the rubato occasionally gets in the way (a la Pamela Ruiter Feenstra), but it's excellent in the AoF.
But I think I might get used to the rubato in WTC after a few listens -- who knows?

It just hit me, when listening to Rubsam's Pachelbel Hexachordum: the reason why Rubsam uses so much rubato and arpeggiates nearly everything is because he's trying to imitate the lute! I mean, he's playing on a lute-harpsichord - doh!
Now this has clicked, his recordings are quite ingenious to me.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on March 26, 2017, 01:47:10 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 26, 2017, 01:08:12 AM
It just hit me, when listening to Rubsam's Pachelbel Hexachordum: the reason why Rubsam uses so much rubato and arpeggiates nearly everything is because he's trying to imitate the lute! I mean, he's playing on a lute-harpsichord - doh!
Now this has clicked, his recordings are quite ingenious to me.

It's true that sometimes the music sounds like lute players, and the harpsichord sounds very like a lute. I think he's just experimenting with ways to make the music expressive. Conventions grew up about how to play harpsichord which he thinks don't always do the best by the music.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on March 26, 2017, 05:08:06 PM
Quote from: Que on March 26, 2017, 12:15:09 AM
I am generally not a fan of Elizabeth Farr, I also agree on Watchorn's recording - the sparkle is missing there....

I need to seek out Pieter Dirksen... :) Olivier Baumont is absolutely brilliant, though just a single disc.

Q

Farr's set of concerto transcriptions is fairly good, and better than her set of lautenwerk pieces (=lute works played on a lautenwerk) which is marred by questionable registrations and stops.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on March 26, 2017, 09:18:47 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 26, 2017, 01:08:12 AM
: the reason why Rubsam uses so much rubato and arpeggiates nearly everything

Just seeing this and mention of Elizabeth Farr made me think of her Byrd recording, which was produced by Rubsam. Farr rolls chords to mark upbeats in Byrd. It's quite a bold experiment.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 26, 2017, 09:25:14 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 26, 2017, 05:08:06 PM
Farr's set of concerto transcriptions is fairly good, and better than her set of lautenwerk pieces (=lute works played on a lautenwerk) which is marred by questionable registrations and stops.

IMO, her execution is limited,  her performance sounds mechanical, and her interpretations lack playfulness. Ie., below.

https://youtu.be/JKWrCRI7axc
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 31, 2017, 10:25:14 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 31, 2017, 10:12:21 PM
I don't know the first Pinnock recording. What I will say is that  I listened to Pinnock's recording of the Bach toccatas - not music I know very well or normally much enjoy. But I thought Pinnock's recording was fabulous!

Yes, I like his toccatas too though they are not sophisticated like the performances today, ie. Hantai.
Funny, you say you don't know Bach's Toccatas well.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on April 09, 2017, 05:35:24 AM


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61lI31WTOYL._SS500.jpg)

I'm really enjoying Mario Videla's recording of the French Suites recording because he completely shies away from large scale gestures, everything is peaceful and intimate. Anyway I shouldn't wonder if this becomes a favourite.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 09, 2017, 06:21:23 AM
(http://img.cdandlp.com/2013/02/imgL/115852636.jpg) This seems forgotten but it's also good for me tonight. My favorite is no one else's I guess: (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/122/MI0001122929.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 09, 2017, 07:55:06 PM
Quote from: milk on April 09, 2017, 06:21:23 AM
This seems forgotten but it's also good for me tonight. My favorite is no one else's I guess:

I like Leon's all the Seon recordings!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on April 10, 2017, 03:26:26 PM
Quote from: milk on April 09, 2017, 06:21:23 AM
My favorite is no one else's I guess: (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/122/MI0001122929.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

It's my favorite too! Such a great shame that it's out of print, since it was engineered so well too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shAg4vgpFpA
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 11, 2017, 02:46:59 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 09, 2017, 05:35:24 AM

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61lI31WTOYL._SS500.jpg)

I'm really enjoying Mario Videla's recording of the French Suites recording because he completely shies away from large scale gestures, everything is peaceful and intimate. Anyway I shouldn't wonder if this becomes a favourite.
I do like this. Thanks. To me, it's a very different sound. It's kind of compressed sounding...the voices...It's charming.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on April 11, 2017, 02:49:17 AM
Quote from: milk on April 11, 2017, 02:46:59 AM
I do like this. Thanks. To me, it's a very different sound. It's kind of compressed sounding...the voices...It's charming.

What do you hear in this that you don't hear in Perkins? I mean in terms of interpretation.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 11, 2017, 03:06:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 11, 2017, 02:49:17 AM
What do you hear in this that you don't hear in Perkins? I mean in terms of interpretation.
I'd forgotten about Perkins. I only downloaded one suite of him. I don't know if I was fair to Perkins but where Perkins seemed dry and matter of fact, Videla seems touching in an understated but charming way. Perhaps I should give Perkins more of a chance but that was my initial feeling about it. I can compare Perkins to Leonhardt's performance of the second suite (clavichord). But maybe that's not fair either. Not being musically educated, I feel my view is even more subjective than most. There is a unique quality to the sound of Videla. I'm not sure how to describe it. It's rustic. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on August 09, 2017, 11:12:32 PM
(https://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.573087.gif)

Aapo Hakkinen plays Bach on a copy of a harpsichord with a big big bass (Hass 1760), I think there are lots of beautiful things on this recording, not least one of the most interesting performances of BWV 819 I've heard. The tuning and transparency of the harpsichord, and Hakkinen's voicing,  reveals the imaginative counterpoint especially in the allemande and sarabande. Well with hearing this recording I think, there's a lot to enjoy in it.

Hakkinen's the real deal musically, here and in Byrd.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on August 24, 2017, 03:53:33 PM
(https://is4-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music1/v4/ac/b3/5a/acb35abd-a4ad-3ed0-e31a-7c940e55ef3b/source/200x0w.jpg)
Genzoh does a very convinving performance of the partitas here. He commands an instrument that can be charmingly unwieldy at times. But he's very expressive, flexible, employing hesitations - agogics, very effectively. I really feel this recording should be better known. Bach on the Silbermann. Rare, especially for the Partitas.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 29, 2017, 07:37:06 PM
Moving this here so it doesn't get lost on the WAYLT thread.

Bach, Partitas, disc 1, Gester. Gester is intuitively in sync with Bach's unpredictability in this music, taking in stride the myriad harmonic hurdles building to some of the most melodically sophisticated music Bach ever penned. It's easy to see why Bach was eager to have this music published ("Op.1" indeed).

Great sound, too, along with a great instrument (by Matthias Griewisch, 1999, after Michael Mietke). Overall, just fantastic.   



(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511DAnPP1ZL.jpg)


Quote from: Que on August 29, 2017, 11:06:40 AM
Definitely interesting!  :)

Yes, and it's definitely not overpriced. One of the perks. :)

Overall I'd put Gester in the category of those who like to pause along the way to smell the roses when it comes to the music they're playing, as opposed to someone like, say, Rousset, who seems to revel in the "audaciousness" (i.e. high on the adrenaline) of the music. Not that Gester shies away from "audacious" but his philosophy seems to be to first let the music breathe and build everything naturally. The more I listened the more I recognized an expert at, well, telling a story. It "sings".

Oh, and I neglected to mention the posh packaging, with a gigantic French/English booklet. Another perk. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mr. Minnow on September 01, 2017, 04:28:47 PM
Any opinions on this?

(https://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/thumbnails/044747345024.jpg)

I'm hesitating on this one as it's not particularly cheap, but the choice of instrument makes it potentially very interesting.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on September 01, 2017, 06:31:29 PM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on September 01, 2017, 04:28:47 PM
Any opinions on this?

(https://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/thumbnails/044747345024.jpg)

I'm hesitating on this one as it's not particularly cheap, but the choice of instrument makes it potentially very interesting.

Try to listen to samples. I have no experience with this performer, but I have found lautenwerk performances to be hit or miss, even with the same performer. I think the actual individual instrument used can have a greater than usual impact.

The concept itself is interesting.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 01, 2017, 10:50:01 PM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on September 01, 2017, 04:28:47 PM
Any opinions on this?

(https://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/thumbnails/044747345024.jpg)

I'm hesitating on this one as it's not particularly cheap, but the choice of instrument makes it potentially very interesting.

The instrument is not so beautiful, it is closely recorded and the performances are middle of the road in terms of ideas and mediocre at best in execution. There is a lautenwerk well tempered clavier I like much more from Wolfgang Rubsam, you can buy it from his website.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 01, 2017, 11:39:37 PM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on September 01, 2017, 04:28:47 PM
Any opinions on this?

(https://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/thumbnails/044747345024.jpg)

I'm hesitating on this one as it's not particularly cheap, but the choice of instrument makes it potentially very interesting.

Some time ago I acquired Paul's recordings of the Bach Partitas, English and French suites. A big disappointment. Uninteresting instrument and playing, which - as Mandryka writes - is mediocre at best. I cannot recommend John Paul at all.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 02, 2017, 03:54:24 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 29, 2017, 07:37:06 PM
Moving this here so it doesn't get lost on the WAYLT thread.

Bach, Partitas, disc 1, Gester. Gester is intuitively in sync with Bach's unpredictability in this music, taking in stride the myriad harmonic hurdles building to some of the most melodically sophisticated music Bach ever penned. It's easy to see why Bach was eager to have this music published ("Op.1" indeed).

Great sound, too, along with a great instrument (by Matthias Griewisch, 1999, after Michael Mietke). Overall, just fantastic.   



(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511DAnPP1ZL.jpg)


Yes, and it's definitely not overpriced. One of the perks. :)

Overall I'd put Gester in the category of those who like to pause along the way to smell the roses when it comes to the music they're playing, as opposed to someone like, say, Rousset, who seems to revel in the "audaciousness" (i.e. high on the adrenaline) of the music. Not that Gester shies away from "audacious" but his philosophy seems to be to first let the music breathe and build everything naturally. The more I listened the more I recognized an expert at, well, telling a story. It "sings".

Oh, and I neglected to mention the posh packaging, with a gigantic French/English booklet. Another perk.
I'm intrigued. But hesitant. I wonder how is stacks up to Moretenson, Suzuki and Leonhardt? It's tempting.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 02, 2017, 04:16:25 AM
Quote from: milk on September 02, 2017, 03:54:24 AM
I'm intrigued. But hesitant. I wonder how it stacks up to Mortensen, Suzuki and Leonhardt? It's tempting.

It is more poetic and "feminine" , than the three you mention, which all are very masculine.

As to me I have enjoyed Gester's recording very much.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 02, 2017, 12:48:49 PM
Quote from: milk on September 02, 2017, 03:54:24 AM
I'm intrigued. But hesitant. I wonder how is stacks up to Moretenson, Suzuki and Leonhardt? It's tempting.

The only other harpsichord Partitas recording I have is Belder, who, when considering premont's characterizations, might be considered "masculine" next to the more "feminine" Gester, but that shouldn't be taken to mean Gester is "fragile". Indeed, Gester's talent for understatement is what powers (as it were) his distinctively virile approach. Surprises, insights, etc. etc. etc., are spread liberally.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mr. Minnow on September 02, 2017, 02:38:28 PM
Thanks for the replies on John Paul's WTC. I'm glad I asked before buying! I take it Rubsam's version is download only? I couldn't find any mention of a CD release, which is a shame as I much prefer CDs to downloads. I suppose the upside is that a download version won't sell out, so I can wait until I have some cash to spare.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 03, 2017, 01:29:07 AM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on September 02, 2017, 02:38:28 PM
I take it Rubsam's version is download only? I couldn't find any mention of a CD release, which is a shame as I much prefer CDs to downloads. I suppose the upside is that a download version won't sell out, so I can wait until I have some cash to spare.

I expect that if you contact him he'll find a way to get you a CD.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: HIPster on September 03, 2017, 07:53:33 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 29, 2017, 07:37:06 PM
Moving this here so it doesn't get lost on the WAYLT thread.

Bach, Partitas, disc 1, Gester. Gester is intuitively in sync with Bach's unpredictability in this music, taking in stride the myriad harmonic hurdles building to some of the most melodically sophisticated music Bach ever penned. It's easy to see why Bach was eager to have this music published ("Op.1" indeed).

Great sound, too, along with a great instrument (by Matthias Griewisch, 1999, after Michael Mietke). Overall, just fantastic.   



(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511DAnPP1ZL.jpg)


Yes, and it's definitely not overpriced. One of the perks. :)

Overall I'd put Gester in the category of those who like to pause along the way to smell the roses when it comes to the music they're playing, as opposed to someone like, say, Rousset, who seems to revel in the "audaciousness" (i.e. high on the adrenaline) of the music. Not that Gester shies away from "audacious" but his philosophy seems to be to first let the music breathe and build everything naturally. The more I listened the more I recognized an expert at, well, telling a story. It "sings".

Oh, and I neglected to mention the posh packaging, with a gigantic French/English booklet. Another perk.
Super review, DD!  :)

I am very interested in this recording.  Not showing on Amazon, however (or at least I cannot find it  ::)).

Could someone please post a link?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 03, 2017, 08:17:22 AM
This is where I got it ½ year  ago:

https://www.amazon.fr/Bach-J-S-Clavier-%C3%9Cbung-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00ITYHBHY/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1504455359&sr=1-4&keywords=martin+gester
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on September 03, 2017, 08:27:49 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 03, 2017, 08:17:22 AM
This is where I got it ½ year  ago:

https://www.amazon.fr/Bach-J-S-Clavier-%C3%9Cbung-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00ITYHBHY/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1504455359&sr=1-4&keywords=martin+gester

Another 'French' possibility:

https://www.melomania.com/en/bach-gester-partitas-pour-clavier-bwv-825-830-163460
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 03, 2017, 08:31:48 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 03, 2017, 08:27:49 AM
Another 'French' possibility:

https://www.melomania.com/en/bach-gester-partitas-pour-clavier-bwv-825-830-163460

Seems to be a bit cheaper, if one ignores the postage fee.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Marc on September 03, 2017, 08:38:37 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 03, 2017, 08:31:48 AM
Seems to be a bit cheaper, if one ignores the postage fee.

All in all, I paid € 13,99 for it.
Still a very nice price for a 'feminine' touch. ;)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 03, 2017, 10:05:58 AM
Quote from: HIPster on September 03, 2017, 07:53:33 AM
Super review, DD!  :)

I am very interested in this recording.  Not showing on Amazon, however (or at least I cannot find it  ::)).

Could someone please post a link?

Thanks.

Thanks, HIPster! :)

Yeah, as you found out, it's not so easy to find Stateside.

As the others mentioned, the European Amazons are probably the best bet.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: HIPster on September 03, 2017, 06:27:16 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 03, 2017, 10:05:58 AM
Thanks, HIPster! :)

Yeah, as you found out, it's not so easy to find Stateside.

As the others mentioned, the European Amazons are probably the best bet.

Thank you, DD and to marc and premont.  ;)

I plan to purchase this recording asap. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 04, 2017, 07:24:49 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 02, 2017, 04:16:25 AM
It is more poetic and "feminine" , than the three you mention, which all are very masculine.

As to me I have enjoyed Gester's recording very much.

Hmm...yeah, can't get it on iTunes. Now I really want it. Who else has this feminine approach of which is spoken?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 04, 2017, 07:27:38 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 02, 2017, 04:16:25 AM
It is more poetic and "feminine" , than the three you mention, which all are very masculine.

As to me I have enjoyed Gester's recording very much.
But I wonder if we could say this about Suzuki, compared to Mortensen and Leonhardt, too. He's more poetic also, no? At least the tempos are slower (or there are just more repeats?).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 04, 2017, 07:32:55 PM
Hmm...well, listening to Suzuki, he's quite muscular in a way.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 04, 2017, 07:37:49 PM
What other recordings equal Mortensen in quality? Besides Leonhardt and Suzuki? Not on piano...that show a different side to the music?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 05, 2017, 01:36:35 AM
Quote from: milk on September 04, 2017, 07:37:49 PM
What other recordings . . . show a different side to the music?

Try Verlet on Philips and Kenneth Weiss. In a rather different way (classical, emotionally held in check, elegant, delicate) there's Kenneth Gilbert.

Koopman also shows a different side.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 05, 2017, 03:17:16 AM
Quote from: milk on September 04, 2017, 07:37:49 PM
What other recordings equal Mortensen in quality? Besides Leonhardt and Suzuki? Not on piano...that show a different side to the music?

Egarr.
Walcha (not strictly HIP but extremely energetic).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 05, 2017, 04:23:42 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 05, 2017, 01:36:35 AM
Try Verlet on Philips and Kenneth Weiss. In a rather different way (classical, emotionally held in check, elegant, delicate) there's Kenneth Gilbert.

Koopman also shows a different side.
I didn't know Gilbert did one. I want to listen to that.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 05, 2017, 04:27:21 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 05, 2017, 03:17:16 AM
Egarr.
Walcha (not strictly HIP but extremely energetic).
Are you a fan of Egarr's Bach? Blandine Rannou never did one I guess. Next to WTC, I think the partitas are Bach's deepest non-organ Keyboard works. Even more that GBV - to which I rarely listen anymore.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 05, 2017, 07:39:33 AM
Quote from: milk on September 05, 2017, 04:23:42 AM
I didn't know Gilbert did one. I want to listen to that.

It looks as though it's become hard to find, hopefully that situation will change at some point. Gilbert's classicism see,s to me to be a bit at odds with the zeitgeist. I love it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 05, 2017, 07:52:11 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 05, 2017, 07:39:33 AM
It looks as though it's become hard to find,

Here at least for 30 USD:

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Partitas-Clavier%C3%BCbung-I/dp/B00008F6F6

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 05, 2017, 07:54:45 AM
Quote from: milk on September 05, 2017, 04:27:21 AM
Are you a fan of Egarr's Bach?.

Well, with time I have acquired some more taste for him and also his Bach. His recording of the partitas is rather individual and temperamental.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 05, 2017, 12:04:50 PM
Quote from: milk on September 05, 2017, 04:27:21 AM
I think the partitas are Bach's deepest non-organ Keyboard works.

The 1720s were clearly a period of great exploration of the suite - Rameau and Bach both publishing some really bold, groundbreaking music in the form.

(I hope Bach isn't turning in his grave because he's bracketed with Rameau. I think it's clear that Bach was much much deeper in the partitas than anything Rameau ever dreamed of.)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 05, 2017, 03:43:16 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 05, 2017, 07:54:45 AM
Well, with time I have acquired some more taste for him and also his Bach. His recording of the partitas is rather individual and temperamental.
"temperamental" - that's ringing a bell. I may have this somewhere in the depths of my gigobytes...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 07, 2017, 07:07:09 AM
Be sure to listen to Egarr's French Suites, which have really grown on me recently.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 07, 2017, 08:47:19 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 10, 2016, 07:54:06 AM
I put some comments on a couple of partitas from the Astrée set on a thread somewhere here just last week.
I just purchased Verlet's partitas. This is much less religious than some. More home-y. She outlined details. Maybe the opposite of Suzuki. It sounds less like heaven and more like a lovely parlour.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 07, 2017, 10:40:41 PM
Quote from: milk on September 07, 2017, 08:47:19 PM
I just purchased Verlet's partitas. This is much less religious than some. More home-y. She outlined details. Maybe the opposite of Suzuki. It sounds less like heaven and more like a lovely parlour.

Did you buy the Philips or the Astrée? As you know I thought the Astrée  was a curate's egg.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 08, 2017, 02:20:39 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 07, 2017, 10:40:41 PM
Did you buy the Philips or the Astrée? As you know I thought the Astrée  was a curate's egg.
Yeah. Stupid me. I see I had bought the Phillips before. It's in my "cloud." I can already hear the difference. Yeah, it's better. The newer one has many charms. But it doesn't soar. This older one flys higher.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 08, 2017, 02:40:23 AM
The Astree first partita is very odd, I just do not like it. But the second and the sixth are interesting to hear if I remember right.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 08, 2017, 04:16:24 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 08, 2017, 02:40:23 AM
The Astree first partita is very odd, I just do not like it. But the second and the sixth are interesting to hear if I remember right.
The 6th is good. But I probably won't be in a hurry to come back to either Verlet.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 12, 2017, 12:26:43 AM
What's Dutch straightforwardness? Is it a strength or a weakness?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on September 12, 2017, 04:19:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 12, 2017, 12:26:43 AM
What's Dutch straightforwardness? Is it a strength or a weakness?

I would say that straightforwardness (directness/ straightness), whether seen as a trait common amongst Dutch Bach performers or not, is primarily a strenght.... but it can also be a weakness....  8)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 12, 2017, 05:52:50 AM
Quote from: Que on September 12, 2017, 04:19:46 AM
I would say that straightforwardness (directness/ straightness), whether seen as a trait common amongst Dutch Bach performers or not, is primarily a strenght.... but it can also be a weakness....  8)

Q

I really don't know what it is , this trait. Is it the same as com'e scritto? Like Walcha and Toscanini.  I'm going to be interested to see whether you think Berben's WTC has it, or Asperen's (both Dutch)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Wakefield on September 12, 2017, 09:27:27 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 12, 2017, 05:52:50 AM
I really don't know what it is , this trait. Is it the same as com'e scritto? Like Walcha and Toscanini.  I'm going to be interested to see whether you think Berben's WTC has it, or Asperen's (both Dutch)

IMO ,"Dutch straightforwardness" should be taken as a simple tag, without technical aspirations. I think about it almost as a synonym of "no-nonsense" style. Practical and serious, and only interested in doing what is necessary to achieve what is intended, without silly ideas or methods.

Not exactly com'e scritto, but more interested in discovering the composer's intentions than the interpreter's ideas. And here is where Pandora's box is open...  ;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 12, 2017, 09:48:14 AM
There's a view that I've heard before about the cantatas and other church vocal music, that Bach was writing for relatively unskilled performers and so what he notated was basically what he wanted. He didn't want people to add expression because basically, they weren't up to it.

I've never heard this view defended for the instrumental music, but I could imagine a case being made for it the suites  in the Anna Magdalena Notebook, for example. But maybe that's what Que & Co. are getting at - the music shouldn't be adorned if you're interested in what Bach had in mind. That's why I mentioned Walcha.

As far as Pandora's Box is concerned, I won't open it. I don't think it makes much sense to.

Seriousness is an interesting idea, I suspect it'll be very difficult to cash out.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on September 12, 2017, 11:19:05 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 12, 2017, 09:48:14 AM
There's a view that I've heard before about the cantatas and other church vocal music, that Bach was writing for relatively unskilled performers and so what he notated was basically what he wanted. He didn't want people to add expression because basically, they weren't up to it.

I've never heard this view defended for the instrumental music, but I could imagine a case being made for it the suites  in the Anna Magdalena Notebook, for example. But maybe that's what Que & Co. are getting at - the music shouldn't be adorned if you're interested in what Bach had in mind. That's why I mentioned Walcha.

As far as Pandora's Box is concerned, I won't open it. I don't think it makes much sense to.

Seriousness is an interesting idea, I suspect it'll be very difficult to cash out.

I am under the impression that at least some of the vocal music, especially the cantatas for solo voice, were written for singers Who Knew What They Were doing.  Also remember that much of it was being rehearsed and performed under Bach's supervision, so there was some opportunity for verbal instructions that did not need to be written down.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on September 12, 2017, 11:34:20 AM
He wrote down most embellishments that were usually improvised but that does not mean his performers were not skillful in general. Although many of the keyboard works also served educational purposes, another reason for writing out stuff explicitly.

(In Leipzig supposedly the performers did what Bach told them, this was a very different situation with Handel having to deal with opera singers some of which were bigger stars than the composer. They would have been offended if the composer had not let them do their own embellishments and there are several anecdotes of heated arguments when Handel had some special wishes, e.g. "Verdi prati" (I think) was supposed to be sung simply, without added embellishments and the castrato refused to do that at first.)

But I do no think that this has anything to do with what we would call a "straightforward" performance today. It is mainly about all these turns and grace notes etc. As far as rubato, "rhetorics" etc. are concerned we simply do not know what Bach's performers might have taken as "usual" or what Bach might have conveyed to his performers in rehearsal.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 12, 2017, 11:56:55 AM
Well I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that Dutch straightforwardness doesn't make sense if it doesn't mean comm'e scritto.

I just listened to Belder playing the 3rd French suite. It's so serious it's seriously dour. Spanish Inquisition music.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 12, 2017, 12:05:06 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 12, 2017, 11:34:20 AM
He wrote down most embellishments that were usually improvised but that does not mean his performers were not skillful in general.

Yes skilful maybe wasn't the right idea. I mean they may have been able to execute difficult music, but perhaps lacked the experience or artistry to embellish a score sensitively.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: aukhawk on September 12, 2017, 01:53:49 PM
There's room for all approaches surely.  That doesn't mean you have to like them all equally, or at all.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 13, 2017, 12:22:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 12, 2017, 11:56:55 AM
Well I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that Dutch straightforwardness doesn't make sense if it doesn't mean comm'e scritto.

In my book it rather means "within informed stylistic borders"-
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 13, 2017, 01:27:07 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 13, 2017, 12:22:13 AM
In my book it rather means "within informed stylistic borders"-

Then Dutch straightforwardness is neither Dutch nor straightforward (like a peanut is neither a pea nor a nut; the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire . . . )
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 13, 2017, 01:44:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 13, 2017, 01:27:07 AM
Then Dutch straightforwardness is neither Dutch nor straightforward (like a peanut is neither a pea nor a nut; the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire . . . )

It is not Dutch as such, but seems to be common for a group of Dutch musicians.

As to strightforwardness I admit that I in this context prefer the expression no-nonsense.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 16, 2017, 07:28:55 PM
I love the set.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on September 20, 2017, 09:49:12 PM
Some short impressions on this set:

[asin]B00002MXXK[/asin]

Partitas by Pieter-Jan Belder
A recording early in Belder's career (1999), and to my ears premont was right in his assessment that this is Belder's most succesfull contribution to the set. Though there is more nice stuff to come.... Initial impression of this performance is of of a stately and somewhat deliberate sounding performance, but beautiful phrased and with "Dutch" straight forwardness. The faster movements are however played swiftly (and steady), though can sound a touch mechanical.

All in all, there is something very attractive to the airy and transparent result, aided by the well recorded pleasant sound of his harpsichord after Ruckers.
I would be very interesting in a remake after so many years, which undoubtedly will be more flexible and deeper, but as it is -  this is an attractive breath of fresh air.

Keyboard Works 1700-1710 by Christiane Wuyts
I thouroughly enjoyed this 3CDset with miscellaneous harpsichord works from Bach's early days.
There is little information available about the Flemish performer. The booklet is not very helpful: "she was the pupil of various masters of the harpsichord in Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany". Anyway, this lady delivers solid, balanced and carefully detailed performances with great dedication.
Might sounds boring perhaps, but this kind of unobtrusive, straight but lively style seems to work well with this little youthful gemms.
She is aided by two wonderful sounding harpsichords: one by Henri Hemsch, 1754, and one by Jacques Goermans, 1774.
Frustratingly, Brilliant doesn't tell in which piece which harpsichord is used....My ears tell me that Wuyts continously alternates between them.
The recording dates from 1988, and might have originally been made for Adda (now defunct).

Competition is few but strong in shape of the two volumes (3 discs) of the "Harpsichord music by the Young Bach" by Robert Hill (Hänssler), whose performances are more virtuosic and "high brow" (strongly recommended, as is anything by Hill in that series). Still going to keep this, some lovely renditions here, not least of all of some pieces of doubtful authorship like a helter skelter "phantastic" BWV 909.

The Well Tempered Clavier by Léon Berben
When this was recorded in 1999, Léon Berben was a very young man. And this is a young man's brave attempt at the Old Testament of keyboard music.
A mixed bag of haphazard playing that includes well executed and brilliant ideas, a lot of stop-and-go, musical phrases that collapse, touching moments, and so forth.
What I hear is Berben on exploration through the WTC, trying out different things but never exactly knowing where he is going.
Despite the draw backs I much enjoyed the adventure - Léon Berben has a brilliant mind and has some great insights.
Now, so many years later and matured as an artist, Berben could pleasantly surprise us with another attempt.....

PM I will continue to add to this post with comments on the rest of the content.

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 20, 2017, 11:51:09 PM
Quote from: Que on September 20, 2017, 09:49:12 PM

The Well Tempered Clavier by Léon Berben
When this was recorded in 1999, Léon Berben was a very young man. And this is a young man's brave attempt at the Old Testament of keyboard music.
A mixed bag of haphazard playing that includes well executed and brilliant ideas, a lot of stop-and-go, musical phrases that collapse, touching moments, and so forth.
What I hear is Berben on exploration through the WTC, trying out different things but never exactly knowing where he is going.
Despite the draw backs I much enjoyed the adventure - Léon Berben has a brilliant mind and has some great insights.
Now, so many years later and matured as an artist, Berben could pleasantly surprise us with another attempt.....

I am surprised, that you do not comment upon his cornucopia of wrong notes, particularly in the modes with many accidentals, completely distorting the music.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on September 21, 2017, 04:39:29 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 20, 2017, 11:51:09 PM
I am surprised, that you do not comment upon his cornucopia of wrong notes, particularly in the modes with many accidentals, completely distorting the music.

Oh, they are defenitely there!  :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 01, 2017, 03:10:34 AM
Um...Colin Tilney recorded the French Suites on the CLAVICHORD? Anyone have a thought on this?
(http://direct.rhapsody.com/imageserver/images/Alb.72258994/500x500.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on October 01, 2017, 03:44:10 AM
Yes, I like it as much as Thurston Dart and less than Julian Perkins.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 01, 2017, 03:47:00 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 01, 2017, 03:44:10 AM
Yes, I like it as much as Thurston Dart and less than Julian Perkins.
I should give Perkins another chance. I see I already have the first suite from Perkins. With Leonhardt's second and a little Tilney and Dart I shall have a clavichord compilation of the French.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 01, 2017, 04:28:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 01, 2017, 03:44:10 AM
Yes, I like it as much as Thurston Dart and less than Julian Perkins.
For some reason I find Tilney more pleasurable. I'm listening to the fourth and fifth suites. Something about Perkins just doesn't get through to me. Tilney is subtle but sensitive. What is this style? It sings. I am feeling as I listen to Tilney that it's special.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on October 01, 2017, 04:45:48 AM
Quote from: milk on October 01, 2017, 04:28:02 AM
For some reason I find Tilney more pleasurable. I'm listening to the fourth suite. Something about Perkins just doesn't get through to me. Tilney is subtle but sensitive. His air for instance. What is this style? It sings.

There's a recording of 818a, which is like a French Suite, on clavichord by Ilton Wjunisky.

Does anyone know about Hogwood's clavichord recording of the second violin partita, BWV 1004? Is it Bach's transcription? On The Secret Bach. The chaconne is good.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 01, 2017, 04:52:30 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 01, 2017, 04:45:48 AM
There's a recording of 818a, which is like a French Suite, on clavichord by Ilton Wjunisky.

And 819 and 823. Though not the most subtle clavichordplaying I have heard.

Quote from: Mandryka
Does anyone know about Hogwood's clavichord recording of the second violin partita, BWV 1004? Is it Bach's transcription? On The Secret Bach. The chaconne is good.

Arranged by Mortensen, probably Lars Ulrik Mortensen, see below:

I have heard Mortensen play his own arrangement of the chaconne, very impressive.


http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Metronome/METCD1056
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on December 17, 2017, 05:57:44 AM
I recently got the cheap reissue with Walcha's ca. 1958-61 (EMI, now Warner) recordings. The sound is not as bad as I had expected although the non-authentic instrument is fairly closely recorded. I find it perfectly listenable and only occasionally unpleasant and a little tiring when going for a whole disc. (Although the two Vanguard discs (Couperin/Rameau) with Heiller from about the same time ar fare superior in sound, probably not only because of the instrument but also mic placement and recording tech.)
Premont and others have characterised Walcha's style elsewhere. Severe, not playful, sometimes stiff. Generally fast, especially no lingering in sarabandes or some of the fugues that are often played very slowly (like b minor WTC I). Superlative clarity of voices.
His approach works very well in most of the WTC and the more severe suites (like English 5+6 or Partita 6). It can seem too strict and stiff in the more playful music of the French suites or the Italian concerto.

For the current price of less than 30 EUR for 13 discs comprising WTC I+II, Inventions/Sinfonias, French and English Suites, Partitas, GBV, Italian concerto, French Ouverture and Chromatic Fantasy+Fugue this is a steal, even if one likes only half of it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: kishnevi on December 17, 2017, 05:26:33 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 17, 2017, 05:57:44 AM
I recently got the cheap reissue with Walcha's ca. 1958-61 (EMI, now Warner) recordings. The sound is not as bad as I had expected although the non-authentic instrument is fairly closely recorded. I find it perfectly listenable and only occasionally unpleasant and a little tiring when going for a whole disc. (Although the two Vanguard discs (Couperin/Rameau) with Heiller from about the same time ar fare superior in sound, probably not only because of the instrument but also mic placement and recording tech.)
Premont and others have characterised Walcha's style elsewhere. Severe, not playful, sometimes stiff. Generally fast, especially no lingering in sarabandes or some of the fugues that are often played very slowly (like b minor WTC I). Superlative clarity of voices.
His approach works very well in most of the WTC and the more severe suites (like English 5+6 or Partita 6). It can seem too strict and stiff in the more playful music of the French suites or the Italian concerto.

For the current price of less than 30 EUR for 13 discs comprising WTC I+II, Inventions/Sinfonias, French and English Suites, Partitas, GBV, Italian concerto, French Ouverture and Chromatic Fantasy+Fugue this is a steal, even if one likes only half of it.

Agree with 99% of that.  My only disagreement is that I found none of the discs "tiring" to my ears.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on December 17, 2017, 10:46:12 PM
The "tiring" referred mostly to the sound of the harpsichord and the recording quality, none of which is Walcha's fault and as I said it is not all that bad and even better than I expected from the vintage.
Still, if one usually listens to more authentic instruments recorded with more space around them, the difference is obviously there and the sound experience of the old recording can be tiring for me.
The relentlessness and occasional stiffness of the playing might also be a factor but neither should distract anyone.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: San Antone on December 18, 2017, 01:12:21 AM
Currently I have been listening to and enjoying Kenneth Weiss play Bach (and Scarlatti):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51oohgrOZNL._SS500.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51J%2BQpXaOML._SS500.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on December 29, 2017, 01:36:37 AM
One strange thing or maybe a transfer/editing error? is that in the first English suite Walcha apparently skips the first courante, the second courante and the first double and plays only the second double (with the permanent runs of quavers in the bass) of these four courante variants.
Can anybody check this with an LP or older/alternative CD version of the Walch/EMI English suites?

In the saraband of the 3rd suite he more plausibly plays the "agréments de la même sarabande" instead of repeats, i.e. he plays the plain version and instead of a repeat the ornamented version.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 29, 2017, 02:38:30 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 17, 2017, 05:57:44 AM
I recently got the cheap reissue with Walcha's ca. 1958-61 (EMI, now Warner) recordings. The sound is not as bad as I had expected although the non-authentic instrument is fairly closely recorded. I find it perfectly listenable and only occasionally unpleasant and a little tiring when going for a whole disc. (Although the two Vanguard discs (Couperin/Rameau) with Heiller from about the same time ar fare superior in sound, probably not only because of the instrument but also mic placement and recording tech.)
Premont and others have characterised Walcha's style elsewhere. Severe, not playful, sometimes stiff. Generally fast, especially no lingering in sarabandes or some of the fugues that are often played very slowly (like b minor WTC I). Superlative clarity of voices.
His approach works very well in most of the WTC and the more severe suites (like English 5+6 or Partita 6). It can seem too strict and stiff in the more playful music of the French suites or the Italian concerto.

For the current price of less than 30 EUR for 13 discs comprising WTC I+II, Inventions/Sinfonias, French and English Suites, Partitas, GBV, Italian concerto, French Ouverture and Chromatic Fantasy+Fugue this is a steal, even if one likes only half of it.

Isn't the WTC recorded on the Ahaus Ruckers?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on December 29, 2017, 02:59:24 AM
This is probably the later Archiv recording; the EMI are all on the same "modern" instrument, I believe.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 29, 2017, 03:05:21 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 29, 2017, 01:36:37 AM
One strange thing or maybe a transfer/editing error? is that in the first English suite Walcha apparently skips the first courante, the second courant and the first double and only plays only the second double (with the permanent runs of quavers in the bass) of these four courante variants.
Can anybody check this with an LP or older/alternative CD version of the Walch/EMI English suites?.

On the first release (German Odeon / Electrola  LP about 1960), which I purchased 1964, these courantes were also missing. I am quite sure, that he omitted them deliberately. Perhaps he thought that the doubles contained too much unvaried repetition.

The way of playing the sarabande of the third suite (and also the second suite) is rather common, also to day.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 29, 2017, 03:10:07 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 29, 2017, 02:59:24 AM
This is probably the later Archiv recording; the EMI are all on the same "modern" instrument, I believe.

Yes, all the EMI recordings were made on a revival two manual Ammer instrument (16' , 8' , 8', 4' ).
In the later recording for Archiv Book I was recorded on a Ruckers and Book II on a Hemsch. But still it was not truly authentic, because these two instruments were equally tuned for these particular recordings.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on December 29, 2017, 03:49:27 AM
Thanks! Good to know that it is not a fault of the most recent CD box.
The procedure to use the "agréments" in the repeats of the sarabandes seems very sensible especially if one does not add spontaneous/additional ornaments in the repeats anyway.
That courante with two doubles in the first suite can get tiring but I think skipping most of it is going a little too far...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 16, 2018, 09:22:53 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 01, 2017, 04:52:30 AM


I have heard Mortensen play his own arrangement of the chaconne, very impressive.




And now we can all hear it. Judging by the comments on YouTube, Pierre Hantai agrees with you.

https://youtube.com/v/P7E_nfGTBU8
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: aukhawk on July 23, 2018, 01:42:14 AM
Rubsam has added a set of Violin Sonatas and Partitas transcribed for his lute-harpsichord.
https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/violin-transcriptions (https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/violin-transcriptions)

For what it's worth, I don't enjoy his Cello Suite transcriptions at all, but I do quite value his take on the WTC.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 10, 2018, 04:50:58 PM
Does everyone/anyone think the keyboard partitas would work well for Rubsam on the Lautenwerk? And the French suites? Why WOULDN'T he do these?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 10, 2018, 05:41:03 PM
Time for a new WTC for my collection: After sampling a few different artists, I just ordered Pierre Hantai - WTC Book I (I guess he didn't record Bk II??) I listened to Egarr and Van Asperen, but both left me cold, and seemed very dry and lacking in any enthusiasm for the music. This is my eighth (or ninth) WTC recording.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 11, 2018, 12:32:53 AM
Quote from: milk on November 10, 2018, 04:50:58 PM
Why WOULDN'T he do these?

Well ask him!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 11, 2018, 12:34:10 AM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 10, 2018, 05:41:03 PM
Time for a new WTC for my collection: After sampling a few different artists, I just ordered Pierre Hantai - WTC Book I (I guess he didn't record Bk II??) I listened to Egarr and Van Asperen, but both left me cold, and seemed very dry and lacking in any enthusiasm for the music. This is my eighth (or ninth) WTC recording.

For a hot WTC2 try Frederick Haas, I've never heard the Hantai WTC 1.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 11, 2018, 08:59:57 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 11, 2018, 12:34:10 AM
For a hot WTC2 try Frederick Haas, I've never heard the Hantai WTC 1.

Thanks, You can hear part of the Hantai performance of the WTC 1 on YouTube w/o commercials (~1hr) !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upiDdZmFfQY&t=1945s
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 15, 2018, 12:34:26 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41WRGC1XRML.jpg) I'm just checking in with this recording tonight. I feel like Brookshire uses every trick in the book in terms of articulation and rubato. I don't know if he's intimate. I think so, but it's also very intensely done. It's almost nervous and, like, he gives the sense of something important or suspenseful happening. He changes things up a lot and that makes it feel cinematic: here's a chase, here's a dream, here's a respite or a sentimental reverie. So, this isn't "unpretentious" I guess. Brookshire stretches the music and I think gives it a modern feel. Maybe this treatment works because the FS, of all Bach's keyboard stuff, seem made more for the moment, for fun, for an intimate or rustic setting. It's not searingly powerful like the partitas, or highly spiritual and abstract like the WTC books or deep and dark and religious like the AOF (the other piece Brookshire did, arguably less successfully), or a large form exploration like the Goldbergs. Anyway, I think anyone who hasn't heard Brookshire should check him out; I doubt everyone will like him. By the time Brookshire gets to the Gigue in Suite No. 5, a triumph is earned and a moment of exultation and joy. So, I'm still very smitten with this recording.   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 15, 2018, 02:24:07 AM
Have you heard Blandine Verlet's French Suites? If not let me know and I'll send them to you,  in some ways they remind me of Brookshire's because of the nervous intensity. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 15, 2018, 02:57:21 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 15, 2018, 02:24:07 AM
Have you heard Blandine Verlet's French Suites? If not let me know and I'll send them to you,  in some ways they remind me of Brookshire's because of the nervous intensity.
Thanks! I don't see it on my streaming site either. I'd like to hear it but no rush!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2019, 12:54:03 AM
(https://resources.wimpmusic.com/images/27f8b008/f664/491e/a2ff/76cfce19a8cd/640x640.jpg)

A perfectly enjoyable performance of the first three French suites by Lorenzo Ghielmi. Well behaved, modest, no flashiness, quiet: in short, like it should be. Perfectly nice harpsichord by Kieth Hill.

What prompted me to post was this comment I found online at FNAC, attributed to "The Editor", whatever that might mean.

Quote from: https://musique.fnac.com/a7568008/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Suites-francaises-n-1-a-3-CD-albumBach s'est probablement inspiré de l'hexachordum Apollinis de Pachelbel dont il fut l'élève fugace

I've never come across the idea that there's a connection between the French Suites and Hexachordum Apollinis before.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on February 25, 2019, 03:01:06 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2019, 12:54:03 AM
I've never come across the idea that there's a connection between the French Suites and Hexachordum Apollinis before.

These "connections" are often too far out. E.g. the "connection" between French lute music and the AoF.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on June 04, 2019, 12:09:32 AM
How are y'all liking Masaaki Suzuki's English Suites?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on June 04, 2019, 04:40:18 AM
Quote from: milk on June 04, 2019, 12:09:32 AM
How are y'all liking Masaaki Suzuki's English Suites?

Very much so. In fact, the truth is, for the first time ever, I'm really enjoying these suites, which I'd always felt in the past were less stimulating that the Partitas or the French suites.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on June 12, 2019, 08:42:16 AM
An essay by Andrew Appel on the influence of French composers on Bach's harpsichord music, which may be of interest, but may not

QuoteDuring my first years of study and infatuation with the harpsichord, Baroque music and Bach, I was mystified in reading about Bach's susceptibility to French music. Where, I would ask myself, was the influence of Francois Couperin and Rameau to be heard in the English and French Suites? For me, for most of us in the late 1960s, the repertoire of French music before 1710 was poorly represented in recordings and concerts and not easily accessible in editions (with the exception of the work of Albert Fuller and Thurston Dart). The language of Marchand and Le Roux, of D'Anglebert and even Lully, was mostly unknown.

But this musical language, the 17th century French style, was familiar and inspiring to Johann Sebastian.-Over the last three decades, our interest in the composers who were central to musical life in Paris and represented in so many manuscripts in Germany, has moved in from the periphery of our repertoire. This music is now central and basic to harpsichordists' education and performances. We have seen that the works of the "petit maitre," of Le Roux, La Guerre, Marchand, are unique, savoury treasures. They serve not only as explanations of the origins of more familiar composers, but as character-rich and recognizable masterpieces to be enjoyed and admired. For Bach, Le Roux and Marchand were to be enjoyed, admired, and emulated. Both suites recorded here are found in important Bach family manuscripts and were known by Johann Sebastian. As I studied and performed these two Parisian suites alongside the second English Suite of Bach, I found quality after quality that united all three works.

The historical relationship between Bach and Marchand enjoys some familiarity from the well-known anecdote of a planned meeting and competition between the two great organists. Story has it that Marchand, the night before the test, happened in on Bach's practice session and was so taken aback by the stellar genius, that, judging discretion the better part of valour, left town before sunrise. Marchand's fame has suffered from this story but this brilliant suite of harpsichord pieces in D minor takes some tarnish from his reputation. It compares comfortably to the Bach work. In the allemandes, both composers play with subtle chromatic alteration. This renders the melodic lines elastic and supple. The courantes are intriguing and complicated. The sarabandes are rich, chordal, sensuous dances that combine dramatic rhetorical statement with grand and graceful dance gesture. Though Marchand's is more imitative and Bach's is uncompromisingly 2 part, both gigues are virtuoso and contrapuntal. After careful listening, the argument for influence of the older Frenchman on the German is clear and compelling.

Bach knew Gaspard Le Roux's music from an early 18th century pirated edition printed in Amsterdam, copied from the original Parisian print of 1705. This perfumed, varied, elegant, simple, idiomatic music must have challenged Bach's mind, a mind that moved more easily in a world of counterpoint and complication than in one of sensual delight and gallant, natural expression. Bach refers to this music as a model for minuets, gavottes and passepieds in his orchestral and keyboard music.

My personal regret is that though he included passacaille and chaconne movements in his cantatas, Bach never completed his own pieces de clavecin with a climactic chaconne as was the practice of Marchand and Le Roux. Did he feel that the expansive preludes did not allow for an equally grand statement at the end of a suite of dances? Similarly, did Francois Couperin, with his grand allemandes, feel that the chaconne was no longer required or desired in a collection of keyboard pieces? Finally, Bach and Francois Couperin are both students of Le Roux and Marchand. As extraordinarily different as they are, they stand on the same base of accomplishment and inspiration.


Andrew Appel. 2000
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on August 14, 2019, 07:50:40 AM
(https://cdbaby.name/r/e/rebeccacypess.jpg)    (https://cdbaby.name/t/h/theraritanplayersrebecca.jpg)

https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/rebeccacypess
https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/theraritanplayersrebecca

In "How Thorough was Bach's Thoroughbass?  A Reconsideration of the Trio Texture" (Early Music, February 2019) Rebecca Cypress explores the practice of playing trio sonatas on two keyboards. Apparently François Couperin recommends it in the preface to the Apothéose de Lully, and she's unearthed evidence that the practice was well known in Germany, testified by sources associated with the Bachs.

In the above recording you can hear BWV 1039 and BWV 526 as a duo for fortepiano and harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on August 14, 2019, 01:34:13 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 14, 2019, 07:50:40 AM
Rebecca Cypress explores the practice of playing trio sonatas on two keyboards.

How does she think the three voices should be distributed between the four hands?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on August 15, 2019, 12:40:24 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 14, 2019, 01:34:13 PM
How does she think the three voices should be distributed between the four hands?

First soprano and bass on one keyboard, second soprano and the same bass line on the other. This is François Couperin's suggested procedure.

Cypress has found evidence that Bach encouraged his students to improvise thoroughbass so as to enhance the harmonies. She writes that in BWV 1039

QuoteHere the principle of a generous chordal realisation, even when the obbligato line is present, is even clearer since both keyboardists have the capacity to enrich the texture through added notes. In playing this piece my duo partner and I were able to share the task of adding to the harmony, responding to one another'd additions and capturing notes that would have been difficult for the other player to reach.

By the way, I was aware of the possibility of two keyboard performances of Couperin's trio sonatas because of some pleasant recordings with Emer Buckley -- who's a keyboardist who interests me. But I'd always assumed that they were Couperin's transcriptions made in the style of Gaspard le Roux.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Lk6Yr1jNL._SL1000_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on August 15, 2019, 05:38:54 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 15, 2019, 12:40:24 AM
First soprano and bass on one keyboard, second soprano and the same bass line on the other. This is François Couperin's suggested procedure.

Francois Couperin or not, if we look at the two-keyboard arrangement of the three part mirror fugue from the AoF and at the texture for the left hands in the multiple keyboards concertos, I think Bach would have solved the problem with the "unused" left hand of one of the players by adding a free new composed fourth part for it. So harpsichordist 1 would play soprano 1 with the right hand and bass with the left hand and harpsichordist 2 would play soprano 2 with the right hand and his left hand would play the free added part.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: jwinter on August 15, 2019, 06:58:13 PM
I've just acquired my second WTC on harpsichord (the first being Christiane Jaccottet, which I've had for years), looking forward to spending some time with it this weekend.  I confess that I generally prefer piano for Bach, but I'm trying to broaden my horizons....


(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/aparteap169.jpg?1525085093)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on August 16, 2019, 01:11:32 AM
Quote from: jwinter on August 15, 2019, 06:58:13 PM
I've just acquired my second WTC on harpsichord (the first being Christiane Jaccottet, which I've had for years), looking forward to spending some time with it this weekend.  I confess that I generally prefer piano for Bach, but I'm trying to broaden my horizons....


(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/aparteap169.jpg?1525085093)
you might compare this to someone like Gilbert or Suzuki or Leonhardt or Robert Levin or Wilson. I admit I didn't give Rousett a big chance and maybe I should. Seems like he didn't get a ringing endorsement here.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on August 16, 2019, 02:27:57 AM
This is what I wrote about Rousset's WTC when it came out

Quote from: Mandryka on April 11, 2017, 09:36:15 PM
I listened to Rousset play the second book again last night. I must say, the harpsichord sounds wonderful! The music does sound good on Flemish instruments like this, and the sound engineer deserves a pay rise for capturing it so well.

The performances are on the whole unsurprising - mainstream HIP - as far as I can see. Über mainstream HIP.

The booklet essay is particularly illuminating on his approach. He says that, because Bach has given no indication about the character of the music, he has concluded that the pieces in WTC 2 are abstract, and that they demand a neutral approach. He says he hopes that he has, nevertheless, managed to make them sound humane. Rousset's little essay is well worth reading.

When it was released, I was hoping that Rousset's experience in opera would inspire him to give a particularly dramatic account of the music, lyrical, full of fantasy and passionate intensity.

But no.

Nevertheless there's a lot of pleasure to be had from these straight performances, I don't think the makes the music sound stiff or earth-bound.

And then there was a bit of a discussion about it with me and que. Just listening to the start of the second book the harpsichord sounds good! As far as the interpretations go, he's in the Jupiterian magisterial mode that he's adopted of late with Louis Couperin and Frescobaldi, you'll either like it or you won't. .
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Jo498 on September 12, 2019, 04:23:52 AM
So to get van Asperen's English suites I acquired the Vol. II of the 2000 Brilliant Bach-Edition that also contains:

French Suites J. Payne
Concerto transcriptions P. Dirksen
Art of Fuge M. van Delft
Toccatas M. van Delft
Sonatas, Inventions, little Preludes P. Belder

except for the French (and AoF, but not on harpsichord, I heretically prefer larger ensembles in that piece) I am not too familiar with these works.  The FS with Payne (orig. BIS) is considered not very good, the others had good to very good comments.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 16, 2019, 05:11:02 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51t-dQ6APXL._SS500_.jpg)
I had not heard of Rebecca Pechefsky before tonight but I'm liking this recording. Coming off listening to Frisch and Suzuki recently, whom I both love, I find 
her more melancholy and moody. She has a way with rubato/phrasing - nothing radical but very musical. Her tempos are perhaps on the slower side. Anyone have any thoughts on Rebecca Pechefsky? I feel a kind of prejudice when it comes to New Yorkers - maybe since the great Bach performers have been coming from oceans away - but she studied with the likes of Kenneth Gilbert and Colin Tilney.   
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 16, 2019, 08:40:08 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 16, 2019, 02:27:57 AM
Jupiterian magisterial
I have a dream that, some day, someone who's au courant might make a list of Bach keyboardists, maybe including piano, and give some brief explanation or provide some adjectives to explain what distinguishes them. That might be interesting to debate too. And I wonder if performers see themselves the way the public sees them - musically.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 17, 2019, 12:11:10 AM
Or Pokemons



Richard Egarr is Mewtwo, a "mad scientist" type who is also also kind of angsty,and emotional

(https://www.talkclassical.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74856&amp;d=1441757103)


Skip Sempe is Golem -- loud and relentless

(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/thumb/f/f2/076Golem.png/250px-076Golem.png)


Bob van Asperen is Gastly -- detailed power of mental images and flying ghosts

(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/thumb/c/ca/092Gastly.png/250px-092Gastly.png)


Pierre Hantai  is Voltorb because he's mad and explodes a lot.

(https://www.talkclassical.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74905&d=1441832856)


Gustav Leonhardt is Dugtrio because he's a lot of voices in one thing.

(https://www.talkclassical.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74906&d=1441833023)


Glenn Gould is Golbat because he's annoying and won't go away and talks rubbish all the time

(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/thumb/0/0c/042Golbat.png/250px-042Golbat.png)

Ton Koopman is Squirtle -- very decorative on the outside, but can go quite deep when you least expect it.


(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/thumb/3/39/007Squirtle.png/250px-007Squirtle.png)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 17, 2019, 10:54:16 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 17, 2019, 12:11:10 AM
Or Pokemons

I don't know what to say. Wow! That's awesome/hilarious!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 20, 2019, 11:04:19 PM
Quote from: milk on September 16, 2019, 05:11:02 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51t-dQ6APXL._SS500_.jpg)
I had not heard of Rebecca Pechefsky before tonight but I'm liking this recording. Coming off listening to Frisch and Suzuki recently, whom I both love, I find 
her more melancholy and moody. She has a way with rubato/phrasing - nothing radical but very musical. Her tempos are perhaps on the slower side. Anyone have any thoughts on Rebecca Pechefsky? I feel a kind of prejudice when it comes to New Yorkers - maybe since the great Bach performers have been coming from oceans away - but she studied with the likes of Kenneth Gilbert and Colin Tilney.   

I feel the opposite, in that I feel that the great strength and originality of Frisch in Book 2, is that she finds a sort of tender melancholy, and that she plays in a way which eschews thrilling virtuosity.

You know how there was a tradition of playing Brahms' late piano music with a feeling of nostalgia, well I think there's a bit of that in Frisch's late Bach.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 21, 2019, 09:36:29 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 20, 2019, 11:04:19 PM
I feel the opposite, in that I feel that the great strength and originality of Frisch in Book 2, is that she finds a sort of tender melancholy, and that she plays in a way which eschews thrilling virtuosity.

You know how there was a tradition of playing Brahms' late piano music with a feeling of nostalgia, well I think there's a bit of that in Frisch's late Bach.
I will listen again today. I'd like to compare her to Suzuki. What Pokémon does Suzuki get?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 30, 2019, 03:13:06 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 26, 2017, 09:18:47 PM
Just seeing this and mention of Elizabeth Farr made me think of her Byrd recording, which was produced by Rubsam. Farr rolls chords to mark upbeats in Byrd. It's quite a bold experiment.
I don't know how she is in Bach but the Byrd is intriguing and the instrument sounds great.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: JBS on September 30, 2019, 04:54:59 PM
Quote from: milk on September 30, 2019, 03:13:06 PM
I don't know how she is in Bach but the Byrd is intriguing and the instrument sounds great.

Re Farr
I thought her Lautenwork recording was a bit of a bore, but her recording of the concertos for solo clavier was first class.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on October 01, 2019, 01:14:24 AM
Quote from: milk on September 30, 2019, 03:13:06 PM
I don't know how she is in Bach but the Byrd is intriguing and the instrument sounds great.

I haven't heard the Bach. Here are my notes on the Byrd from about eighteen months ago

QuoteThe recording by Elizabeth Farr caused a certain amount of consternation when it was released because it uses a style of playing which people sometimes call "digital" (as opposed to chordal.) It involves articulating each voice independently, and hence making music which expresses a rich web of sometimes contrasting emotions, and which manifests complex textures and rhythms. This style of interpretation has recently become slightly more familiar because Wolfgang Rubsam, who produced Elizabeth Farr's CD, uses it in his lautenwerk Bach, Pachelbel and Bohm recordings, and the harpsichord factor Keith Hill (who made two of the instruments Elizabeth Farr uses) has written a paper in its advocacy. One gets the impression that there's an avant garde in baroque and renaissance keyboard playing, with Hill, Rubsam and Farr at the vanguard.

I have to say that I like the digital approach and I find these performances of the Lady Nevells Booke Pavans and Galliards stimulating, especially when she uses lautenwerk. Elizabeth Farr often spreads chords as, I guess, a strategy for avoiding pounding the pulse out. How accurate a method of interpretation this is I cannot say, but I think it is not ineffective. On lute harpsichord -- another beautiful instrument made by Hill -- she sounds every bit like Wolfgang Rubsam avant la lettre.

Her notes reveal that she's sensitive to the expressive possibilities of the cycle and my feeling is that what she does, at that level, is exceptional.

At the time I listened to all the recordings of the complete Pavan and Galliard cycle in My Lady Nevells Book and I thought that both Farr and Hogwood on harpsichord were particularly successful. 

Rubsam in a conversation seemed to understand why I thought that Farr was playing digitally, but I got the feeling that he thought that she wasn't extreme enough! He was involved in the Byrd recording in a sound engineering capacity.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 05, 2019, 11:20:56 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91HFVGcFPHL._SX355_.jpg) First time listening to Parmentier. I find him intimate and rather serious. Maybe even dark? I never know if it's just my mood. He connects musical lines in an interesting way that makes them poetic. There's a lot to love.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 06, 2019, 04:18:14 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61B1h-X1bfL._SR600%2C315_PIWhiteStrip%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C35_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)Parmentier's partitas are magnificent. He doesn't use only use hesitations but a lot of different techniques I think - all working naturally together to create drama and intensity.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 15, 2019, 01:04:06 AM
(https://direct.rhapsody.com/imageserver/images/alb.236778199/500x500.jpg)
This is something very interesting and nothing like the pedal harpsichord recording from Biggs. There's a lot more variety in her playing and I think it doesn't sound dated like Biggs does. I think Rosalinde Haas brings out the voices in this and she reflects more mystery. The only problem is that she seems to make mistakes here and there and that caused me to ultimately turn this off. Maybe it's live or maybe my brain is burping. *She uses a "Blanchet Harpsichord," which I'd never heard of. 

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61lA-sltZCL._SY355_.jpg)
I don't completely know what's going on here. It's a mix up of keyboard instruments, harpsichord and organ, and very interesting sounds. Actually I think she's playing on her home instruments. What's a Klais organ and does it really fit in one's house? This is excerpt of Musical Offering and I'm not hearing any blemishes in her very interesting performances. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 15, 2019, 01:40:20 AM
Very left field. There are lots of recordings using Blanchet instruments (eg Matax Moersch D'anglebert, Dantone WTC), they all sound less rough than Haas' instrument.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 15, 2019, 01:50:42 AM
Quote from: milk on November 15, 2019, 01:04:06 AM
I don't completely know what's going on here. It's a mix up of keyboard instruments, harpsichord and organ, and very interesting sounds. Actually I think she's playing on her home instruments. What's a Klais organ and does it really fit in one's house? This is excerpt of Musical Offering and I'm not hearing any blemishes in her very interesting performances.

As far as I recall, Klais (a German organ builder) built an organ for her home.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 02, 2020, 10:19:46 PM
Has anyone delved into Edith Picht-Axenfeld? She's recorded a lot of Bach.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: vers la flamme on September 03, 2020, 02:45:29 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 17, 2019, 12:11:10 AM
Or Pokemons




Never would have pegged you for a Pokemon guy.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 04, 2020, 03:20:01 AM
Quote from: milk on September 02, 2020, 10:19:46 PM
Has anyone delved into Edith Picht-Axenfeld? She's recorded a lot of Bach.

I have heard very little of her Bach. I recall a relatively oldfashioned style of little interest - imagine a smoother variety of Zuzana Růžičková.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: vers la flamme on September 06, 2020, 01:27:58 PM
Thoughts on Růžičková...? She's recorded just about everything, and seems to have lived quite the life. What kind of instrument was she playing?

(https://img.discogs.com/_rqPU6eI3zg_pLmIxYJ5fY_d8q8=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9825116-1486978712-4057.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 06, 2020, 01:47:35 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 06, 2020, 01:27:58 PM
Thoughts on Růžičková...? She's recorded just about everything, and seems to have lived quite the life. What kind of instrument was she playing?

(https://img.discogs.com/_rqPU6eI3zg_pLmIxYJ5fY_d8q8=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9825116-1486978712-4057.jpeg.jpg)

She played different instruments in this set, most of them revival harpsichords. My short description of the set is oldfashioned and pedestrian. An unimaginative variety of Landowska.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: vers la flamme on September 06, 2020, 03:32:28 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 06, 2020, 01:47:35 PM
She played different instruments in this set, most of them revival harpsichords. My short description of the set is oldfashioned and pedestrian. An unimaginative variety of Landowska.

Do you hate all of the "old-fashioned" harpsichordists in equal measure, or do I just keep picking your least favorites of them to ask about?  ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on September 07, 2020, 01:04:47 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 06, 2020, 03:32:28 PM
Do you hate all of the "old-fashioned" harpsichordists in equal measure, or do I just keep picking your least favorites of them to ask about?  ;D

"Hate" is too strong a word. I just find Růžičková dull. There are several much more interesting old-fashioned recordings of Bach's  keyboard music on big revival harpsichords.

To mention a few:

Helmut Walcha (EMI/Warner 1958 -1962)
Ralph Kirkpatrick (Archiv 1950es - early 1960es)
Isolde Ahlgrimm (Philips 1950es) particularly the WTC and AoF
Martin Galling (Vox 1960es) a mixed pleasure, but most often far more imaginative than Růžičková
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: MusicTurner on September 07, 2020, 01:36:40 AM
Quote from: milk on September 02, 2020, 10:19:46 PM
Has anyone delved into Edith Picht-Axenfeld? She's recorded a lot of Bach.

I once had a Schumann piano CD and found it unusually lifeless. Just my opinion.
https://www.discogs.com/Robert-Schumann-Edith-Picht-Axenfeld-3-Gro%C3%9Fe-Sonate-Op-14/release/8972817
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on September 07, 2020, 02:17:59 AM
Here's a concert by Władysław Kłosiewicz on a Playel harpsichord. Someone once told me that there's still a market for these things, they sell.

https://www.youtube.com/v/0OEV_06qW0I&ab_channel=NarolEnterprise

And here's Skip Sempe on Landowska's harpsichord, playing it and talking about the Landowska legacy and about performance practice. The talking much more interesting than the playing for me - starts at 21.15 or thereabouts.

https://www.youtube.com/v/tQppWyIfOlk&ab_channel=LibraryofCongress

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 01, 2020, 09:34:48 PM
Fyi, Genzo Takehisa's performances on clavichord and Silbermann piano.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7uG3nzjmyOCMBmB-q1yNTf1xdA6oHWTY

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVcjy7jZ-vSwkHaHqM3txS0rAyDZfT1HE

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 05, 2020, 07:21:50 PM
In comment sections and amateur reviews of Bach's keyboard music, I frequently come across the sentiment that period performance is stuffy, dry, inflexible, lacking warmth, stodgy, etc. In my experience, almost the exact opposite is true, or at least the situation is closer to even (but more on the side of period instruments). Anyway, where does this misconception of period performances come from? I think it's a persistent misconception. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: JBS on October 05, 2020, 07:29:17 PM
Quote from: milk on October 05, 2020, 07:21:50 PM
In comment sections and amateur reviews of Bach's keyboard music, I frequently come across the sentiment that period performance is stuffy, dry, inflexible, lacking warmth, stodgy, etc. In my experience, almost the exact opposite is true, or at least the situation is closer to even (but more on the side of period instruments). Anyway, where does this misconception of period performances come from? I think it's a persistent misconception.

Perhaps they can't adjust to the differences between modern piano and 18th century keyboard instruments.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 05, 2020, 10:01:03 PM
Quote from: JBS on October 05, 2020, 07:29:17 PM
Perhaps they can't adjust to the differences between modern piano and 18th century keyboard instruments.
Maybe so. I can understand if someone says, "I'm allergic to the harpsichord." But it seems like there's an opinion out there that period performance is stuffy.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on December 08, 2020, 01:49:48 PM
(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2020/06/23/dpmg3o-jsbachgold-preview-m3.jpg)

Yes, this is an amazing release - and this  uniqueness is mostly achieved with the astounding range of timbre, texture, and/or color he finds on whatever harpsichord this is. It reminds me again how much more novelty/innovation I usually find in HIP approaches. What creativity there is here and it's not at all for the sake of novelty.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on December 09, 2020, 03:16:31 AM
New Colin Tilney partitas. That's exciting.
(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2020-10/1602805292_colin-tilney-j_s_-bach-harpsichord-partitas-bwv-825-830-2020-back.jpg)

ETA: He's 87!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on December 13, 2020, 11:14:04 PM
Quote from: milk on December 09, 2020, 03:16:31 AM
New Colin Tilney partitas. That's exciting.
(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2020-10/1602805292_colin-tilney-j_s_-bach-harpsichord-partitas-bwv-825-830-2020-back.jpg)

ETA: He's 87!
I finally had a chance to listen a second time - and on headphones. I think those looking for very subtle independence between the lines of counterpoint will find something here. But there's also the deliberate pace, very nuanced rubato and Tilney's typical care and directness. Tilney doesn't decorate much, does he? He certainly doesn't have any need for pyrotechnics. I feel like Tilney gives so much, gives a lot, without resort to the usually means. Or maybe he just makes it seem that way. Anyway, I think this is something to cherish. I want to say that you really feel the touch of his fingers - but I couldn't tell you how THAT is possible.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 14, 2020, 01:36:37 AM
Quote from: milk on December 13, 2020, 11:14:04 PM
I finally had a chance to listen a second time - and on headphones. I think those looking for very subtle independence between the lines of counterpoint will find something here. But there's also the deliberate pace, very nuanced rubato and Tilney's typical care and directness. Tilney doesn't decorate much, does he? He certainly doesn't have any need for pyrotechnics. I feel like Tilney gives so much, gives a lot, without resort to the usually means. Or maybe he just makes it seem that way. Anyway, I think this is something to cherish. I want to say that you really feel the touch of his fingers - but I couldn't tell you how THAT is possible.

I really like it too - actually it is now my favorite partitas on harpsichord. Very spare, lean, but poetic - he reminds me of Toyohiko Satoh.

Just like what Mandryka said, 'stop making sense!' :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on December 14, 2020, 02:13:31 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 14, 2020, 01:36:37 AM

Just like what Mandryka said, 'stop making sense!' :)

To stop making sense - if I understand it in the right sense - would be senseless.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on December 14, 2020, 03:41:19 AM
I think I would compare Tilney to Leonhardt most of all. Maybe. There's no ego here. And it's very natural sounding. He feels the music very acutely and has a wise touch.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on December 25, 2020, 06:40:34 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41rq30dGbzL._SX355_.jpg) Guglielmi made a couple of recordings of Bach like this - using early fortepianos as well as clavichord. I don't know what he was up to but I'm going to give these a listen. This one seems like it's just transcriptions of stuff but there's another recording with "real" keyboard pieces. "Keyboard perspectives for the 21st century," whatever that means.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on January 15, 2021, 12:40:16 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61jNxVK0K1L._SL1200_.jpg)

If you've ever wondered what Bach's organ concerti sound like played on a pedal harpsichord, here's the answer.
However, before you get your hopes up too much, the pedal harpsichord used is an 8' (rather than 16') instrument so you don't get deep harpsichord bass notes and it's very much a 'one manual' concept.
Also, the 'great' BWV 542 fugue is also there on pedal harpsichord.

In general I like Alard's organ playing more than his harpsichord playing.
Also, is it just me or is the harpsichord miking here a bit suboptimal?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on January 25, 2021, 09:41:18 AM
A wonderful Partitas that I just stumbled on - sober and beautiful playing.

Edit: strangely the picture won't load, http://www.kojimarokuon.com/disc/ALCD1184.html
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 25, 2021, 09:52:30 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on January 25, 2021, 09:41:18 AM
A wonderful Partitas that I just stumbled on - sober and beautiful playing.

Edit: strangely the picture won't load, http://www.kojimarokuon.com/disc/ALCD1184.html

Another source:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/j-s-bach-six-partitas-bwv-825-830/hnum/9172423

I do not know the recording. I think it is too expensive.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on January 25, 2021, 10:32:00 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 25, 2021, 09:52:30 AM
Another source:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/j-s-bach-six-partitas-bwv-825-830/hnum/9172423

I do not know the recording. I think it is too expensive.

I found it on apple music/itunes.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 25, 2021, 11:40:09 AM
Not on spotify or Qobuz either. It's only £10.99 on itunes -- but what is itunes sound quality? In the past I think I've been disappointed, but I may be misremembering.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: amw on January 25, 2021, 04:32:50 PM
I would not listen to any harpsichord recording in a lossy format (which includes all iTunes or Amazon downloads). Too much data is lost.

Whenever I win the lottery or otherwise get several tens of millions dollars somehow, my first plan is to buy the entire ALM Records catalogue and sign some distribution deals with some of the big american/european distributors (Harmonia Mundi, Naxos etc).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on January 25, 2021, 08:58:48 PM
Quote from: amw on January 25, 2021, 04:32:50 PM
Whenever I win the lottery or otherwise get several tens of millions dollars somehow, my first plan is to buy the entire ALM Records catalogue and sign some distribution deals with some of the big american/european distributors (Harmonia Mundi, Naxos etc).

I'm all in!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on January 25, 2021, 11:03:41 PM
Quote from: amw on January 25, 2021, 04:32:50 PM
I would not listen to any harpsichord recording in a lossy format (which includes all iTunes or Amazon downloads). Too much data is lost.

There is definitely an issue with harpsichord music in compressed sound, I have the same experience.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 26, 2021, 03:44:22 AM
Quote from: Que on January 25, 2021, 11:03:41 PM
There is definitely an issue with harpsichord music in compressed sound, I have the same experience.
This has been driving me nuts. I just can't afford to change or buy anymore. I'm stuck streaming. Amazon quality meanders with harpsichord. It may be bad overall but within that, I find streaming isn't consistent. Apple may be better that way.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 26, 2021, 04:29:13 AM
Quote from: milk on January 26, 2021, 03:44:22 AM
This has been driving me nuts. I just can't afford to change or buy anymore. I'm stuck streaming. Amazon quality meanders with harpsichord. It may be bad overall but within that, I find streaming isn't consistent. Apple may be better that way.

Just wait a few more years and you won't notice any differences, and a few years after that you'll be buying your first hearing aid.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 26, 2021, 05:30:55 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 26, 2021, 04:29:13 AM
Just wait a few more years and you won't notice any differences, and a few years after that you'll be buying your first hearing aid.

:laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 26, 2021, 05:31:39 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 26, 2021, 04:29:13 AM
Just wait a few more years and you won't notice any differences, and a few years after that you'll be buying your first hearing aid.

HEAR HEAR  !!!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: aukhawk on January 27, 2021, 01:18:40 AM
Where where ??   ;)

I feel sorry for anyone with such hyper-sensitive hearing that they can hear the "lost data" in a (good) lossy stream.  Such hearing is a kind of disability, which I'm glad not to suffer from.

That said, I've given up on Amazon for audio streaming - since they introduced their 'HD' service (which I haven't tried) their standard service seems to have been downgraded to the point where it's audibly bad.  But these old ears are more than happy with Spotify Premium.  Heck, I'd probably be happy with Spotify standard (half the data rate and nothing to pay) if it were not for the intentionally-intrusive ads.

That said again, harpsichord recordings are of course notorious and are routinely used by testers of lossy systems to find the limits of transparency.  But - it seems to me, you have to know what the original (recording) sounds like.  Harpsichord sound varies widely, not only due to the character of the instrument itself, but also the variations in microphone technique.  Any perceived loss or fuzziness in the sound could be down to any one of a number of factors, of which "lost data" is IMHO one of the less likely possibilities.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 27, 2021, 01:43:59 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 27, 2021, 01:18:40 AM
Where where ??   ;)

I feel sorry for anyone with such hyper-sensitive hearing that they can hear the "lost data" in a (good) lossy stream.  Such hearing is a kind of disability, which I'm glad not to suffer from.

That said, I've given up on Amazon for audio streaming - since they introduced their 'HD' service (which I haven't tried) their standard service seems to have been downgraded to the point where it's audibly bad.  But these old ears are more than happy with Spotify Premium.  Heck, I'd probably be happy with Spotify standard (half the data rate and nothing to pay) if it were not for the intentionally-intrusive ads.

That said again, harpsichord recordings are of course notorious and are routinely used by testers of lossy systems to find the limits of transparency.  But - it seems to me, you have to know what the original (recording) sounds like.  Harpsichord sound varies widely, not only due to the character of the instrument itself, but also the variations in microphone technique.  Any perceived loss or fuzziness in the sound could be down to any one of a number of factors, of which "lost data" is IMHO one of the less likely possibilities.
I've got all these playlists set up on Amazon. That's what's keeping me from changing. I have a feeling anything would be better than their quality.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DavidW on January 27, 2021, 03:38:14 AM
If you're streaming at 320, it is most likely the master at fault or the recording itself and not the compression.  Harpsichords are notoriously difficult to record well.  Steve Guttenberg actually made a video about it because he was involved in recording harpsichord music once upon a time.  He said place the microphone too far away and you lose the subtle microphonics that give the instrument its character, too close and it is too bright.  Something like that.

Harpsichords just sound much better live.  Not saying all recordings of the harpsichord are poor.  Cymbal crashes are much more problematic for lossy music, and imo at high bitrate even they do fine.  I just don't think it is lossy compression to blame here.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DavidW on January 27, 2021, 03:43:54 AM
Quote from: milk on January 27, 2021, 01:43:59 AM
I've got all these playlists set up on Amazon. That's what's keeping me from changing. I have a feeling anything would be better than their quality.

Well couldn't you just pay extra for amazon's hd upgrade?  Certainly if you listen enough it would be worth the extra amount and if it does sound better then problem solved.  Considering how cheap streaming is compared to purchasing cds, I personally have no issue paying for two premium services (Spotify and Qobuz).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 28, 2021, 04:56:00 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 27, 2021, 03:43:54 AM
Well couldn't you just pay extra for amazon's hd upgrade?  Certainly if you listen enough it would be worth the extra amount and if it does sound better then problem solved.  Considering how cheap streaming is compared to purchasing cds, I personally have no issue paying for two premium services (Spotify and Qobuz).
I have HD. I've had problems for a long time even with that. On harpsichord music especially, the quality of the music will suddenly fall off in the middle of an album. If I change devices, it's back to normal but eventually happens again. I think I'm going back to apple music. I've been 'round and 'round with Amazon but I think there's no fixing it. I don't know why it happens on all my devices and on wifi or 4g. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DavidW on January 28, 2021, 05:13:52 AM
Quote from: milk on January 28, 2021, 04:56:00 AM
I have HD. I've had problems for a long time even with that. On harpsichord music especially, the quality of the music will suddenly fall off in the middle of an album. If I change devices, it's back to normal but eventually happens again. I think I'm going back to apple music. I've been 'round and 'round with Amazon but I think there's no fixing it. I don't know why it happens on all my devices and on wifi or 4g.

It sounds like it is dynamically changing the bitrate.  Like maybe it takes to 128.  Many streaming services do that.  If you can download it at the highest rate you should be fine (though some services will still try to just stream instead of play the download).  Else if you use Spotify, you can force it to always use very high.  Something that is not true of all services.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 31, 2021, 04:05:04 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 28, 2021, 05:13:52 AM
It sounds like it is dynamically changing the bitrate.  Like maybe it takes to 128.  Many streaming services do that.  If you can download it at the highest rate you should be fine (though some services will still try to just stream instead of play the download).  Else if you use Spotify, you can force it to always use very high.  Something that is not true of all services.
Maybe so. But when I use iTunes, the sound doesn't degrade. W/Amazon, it always degrades at a certain point no matter which device or connection I use. Maybe it's about streaming Amazon US from Japan? But Apple seems fine so I'll change. I've bought so much music from apple it was silly not to have streaming access to my whole library anyway.

(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music62/v4/f9/9c/02/f99c02f5-dad4-43c0-1b46-3a517598070e/ALCD1162.jpg/1200x630wp.png) Takehisa someone I don't know: Ichise. It's nice to hear Takehisa switching to the fortepiano on the D-major. Apparently, Ichise's involved in many well-known period ensembles but I didn't know her.

(https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Takehisa-G-K03a%5BALM-CD%5D.jpg)
Takehisa's Goldberg's: I have to research what the heck he's playing. This harpsichord has some kind of unique registrations. But I'm not sure the recording sound production does him any favors as far as clarity. There are some great contrapuntal moments here, especially with his lute-stop. Hmm...maybe Takehisa is using a pedal-harpsichord.
ETA: definitely pedal. Strange!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on February 01, 2021, 03:37:59 AM
Quote from: milk on January 31, 2021, 04:05:04 PM


(https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Takehisa-G-K03a%5BALM-CD%5D.jpg)
Takehisa's Goldberg's: I have to research what the heck he's playing. This harpsichord has some kind of unique registrations. But I'm not sure the recording sound production does him any favors as far as clarity. There are some great contrapuntal moments here, especially with his lute-stop. Hmm...maybe Takehisa is using a pedal-harpsichord.
ETA: definitely pedal. Strange!

The picture doesn't display a pedal harpsichord, so maybe it is just a harpsicord with a 16' stop on the lower manual?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 01, 2021, 05:15:28 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 01, 2021, 03:37:59 AM
The picture doesn't display a pedal harpsichord, so maybe it is just a harpsicord with a 16' stop on the lower manual?
It's a strange sound. I think he uses the same thing on BK1 of his WTC. I thought it was a pedal.
ETA: there are some performances of him playing a pedal harpsichord on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt5MnHuRN6A
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DavidW on February 01, 2021, 05:26:29 AM
Anyone have any current favorites in rotation for the English suites?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 01, 2021, 05:35:49 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 01, 2021, 05:26:29 AM
Anyone have any current favorites in rotation for the English suites?
I've been meaning to listen to Masaaki Suzuki.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on February 01, 2021, 09:11:52 AM
Quote from: milk on February 01, 2021, 05:15:28 AM
It's a strange sound. I think he uses the same thing on BK1 of his WTC. I thought it was a pedal.
ETA: there are some performances of him playing a pedal harpsichord on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt5MnHuRN6A

You are clearly right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfWTGLBVLhk
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 01, 2021, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 01, 2021, 05:26:29 AM
Anyone have any current favorites in rotation for the English suites?

Hi David - I have 4 recordings of the English Suites, two on piano (Ivo Janssen box & Murray Perahia) and the two below on harpsichord - have not done any comparisons - attached are some reviews w/ an interesting discussion on the Watchorn recording started by a Don Satz review (Bulldog here in the past), then a reply from Peter W., followed by many more comments - take a look.  Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51tOKj%2BoxEL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71-C7yE9pdL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DavidW on February 01, 2021, 11:03:06 AM
Thanks Milk, I will give Suzuki a listen.

Dave it is crazy to see how Don's review received a personal reply from the performer!  Oh man!  Was that from the Bach Cantatas forum?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 01, 2021, 01:03:57 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 01, 2021, 11:03:06 AM
Thanks Milk, I will give Suzuki a listen.

Dave it is crazy to see how Don's review received a personal reply from the performer!  Oh man!  Was that from the Bach Cantatas forum?

Yep - I read that review discussion before buying the Peter Watchorn recording some time ago - I believe that Watchorn responded to another recordingof his (cannot remember the one) on Amazon, but vague in my mind - Dave :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: amw on February 01, 2021, 02:26:39 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 01, 2021, 05:26:29 AM
Anyone have any current favorites in rotation for the English suites?
Suzuki, Asperen. Tried the new Belder but not sold on it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 01, 2021, 03:11:03 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 01, 2021, 11:03:06 AM
Thanks Milk, I will give Suzuki a listen.

Dave it is crazy to see how Don's review received a personal reply from the performer!  Oh man!  Was that from the Bach Cantatas forum?
I think Parmentier has a recording that people seem to like. I have to give it a go too. I don't spend enough time with the English Suites.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DavidW on February 01, 2021, 04:26:58 PM
Quote from: amw on February 01, 2021, 02:26:39 PM
Suzuki, Asperen. Tried the new Belder but not sold on it.

I'm not a fan of Belder at all.  I will add Parmentier and Asperen to the queue.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: vers la flamme on July 18, 2021, 04:34:37 PM
I may have asked this already, but what are some great harpsichord recordings of the Art of Fugue? I have heard and love the Leonhardt on DHM but it is currently unavailable on disc. (Has Masaaki Suzuki not yet recorded this work? I wonder why.)

Any thoughts on the Belder, or the Bob van Asperen?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on July 18, 2021, 05:46:35 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 18, 2021, 04:34:37 PM
I may have asked this already, but what are some great harpsichord recordings of the Art of Fugue? I have heard and love the Leonhardt on DHM but it is currently unavailable on disc. (Has Masaaki Suzuki not yet recorded this work? I wonder why.)

Any thoughts on the Belder, or the Bob van Asperen?

Messori (Brilliant Classics), Moroney (Harm.Mundi.Fr.), van Delft (Brilliant Classics again) are my actual favorites other than Leonhardt. They represent more or less the same interpretative style. Messori is marginally more extrovert.

Some are very enthusiastic about Vartolo - I not so much. Van Asperen's interpretation is IMO too embellished a la Francaise . becomes quickly annoying to me.

As to Belder I haven't listened enough to his recording, so I won't say anything about it.

Leonhardts DHM AoF is contained in this box:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8007690--gustav-leonhardt-plays-bach

Maybe it can be had second hand, but download flac is also a reasonably good solution.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on July 18, 2021, 05:58:27 PM
+1 for the Leonhardt 2 and Messori. The BvA and Belder are not my things though I like their other recordings.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on July 18, 2021, 07:22:36 PM
If you insist on having the all the canons and fugues I think you should listen to Rübsam on lute harpsichord, no one has dedicated more recording time to Art of Fugue than Rübsam, if quantity is the measure of majesty he is the AoF king. And I too am fond of Messori, not least for the harpsichord he uses, and the melancholy, reflective style. Try also to sample Martha Cook - I think it's rather good - more than that, outstanding in fact.


There is another approach which is important in the interpretation history of the music - a vigorous tense Italianate extrovert virtuoso style. Examples include Robert Hill and Christian Rieger, and maybe Kenneth Gilbert, it's many years since I listened to Gilbert. I'm not keen on this approach myself but it's all a matter of taste and you may enjoy the energy.

But you must listen to Van Asperen, because it is an interesting experiment which you may find rewarding, Koopman is in the same vein I would say.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on July 19, 2021, 12:13:45 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 18, 2021, 04:34:37 PM
I may have asked this already, but what are some great harpsichord recordings of the Art of Fugue? I have heard and love the Leonhardt on DHM but it is currently unavailable on disc. (Has Masaaki Suzuki not yet recorded this work? I wonder why.)

Any thoughts on the Belder, or the Bob van Asperen?

Robert Hill and Menno van Delft are my picks.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: vers la flamme on July 19, 2021, 01:53:13 AM
I ordered the Messori, it sounds amazing. Not sure why I never heard of this recording before. Also includes a Musikalisches Opfer which is a work I am obsessed with.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on July 19, 2021, 03:32:28 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 18, 2021, 07:22:36 PM
If you insist on having the all the canons and fugues I think you should listen to Rübsam on lute harpsichord, no one has dedicated more recording time to Art of Fugue than Rübsam, if quantity is the measure of majesty he is the AoF king. And I too am fond of Messori, not least for the harpsichord he uses, and the melancholy, reflective style. Try also to sample Martha Cook - I think it's rather good - more than that, outstanding in fact.

I briefly thought of Rübsam, but didn't dare to recommend him as a "first" recording - he is too individual, and I think one will appreciate his recording more, when one has some other recordings of the work for comparison.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on July 19, 2021, 03:43:48 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 18, 2021, 07:22:36 PM
There is another approach which is important in the interpretation history of the music - a vigorous tense Italianate extrovert virtuoso style. Examples include Robert Hill and Christian Rieger, and maybe Kenneth Gilbert, it's many years since I listened to Gilbert. I'm not keen on this approach myself but it's all a matter of taste and you may enjoy the energy.

I agree very much with this and share your taste. AoF is not a virtuoso style piece, but instead a rather reflective and introvert piece. Gilbert IMO does not belong to the virtuoso league, but rather to those, who emphasise euphony and beauty.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on July 21, 2021, 12:17:08 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 19, 2021, 01:53:13 AM
I ordered the Messori, it sounds amazing. Not sure why I never heard of this recording before. Also includes a Musikalisches Opfer which is a work I am obsessed with.

I listened to it yesterday. It may be the most expressive AoF I know, the impact is achieved largely but not exclusively through rubato. Such a shame that he didn't record more AoF harpsichord type works - like Frescobaldi's Capricci and Byrd's Pavanes and Galliards, just to apply these skills he had in harpsichord rubato and counterpoint to other musics. He studied with Vartolo, clearly the learned from the master!

That being said, with such an original conception, there's no guarantee that anyone will like it! You have to be ready to submit to it.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: vers la flamme on July 21, 2021, 01:58:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 21, 2021, 12:17:08 AM
I listened to it yesterday. It may be the most expressive AoF I know, the impact is achieved largely but not exclusively through rubato. Such a shame that he didn't record more AoF harpsichord type works - like Frescobaldi's Capricci and Byrd's Pavanes and Galliards, just to apply these skills he had in harpsichord rubato and counterpoint to other musics. He studied with Vartolo, clearly the learned from the master!

That being said, with such an original conception, there's no guarantee that anyone will like it! You have to be ready to submit to it.

Very excited to spend time with it. I must admit that the AoF is not a work that has 100% clicked with me yet, so I am open to hearing different interpretations. Someday I will check out your beloved Rübsam's as well as I have come around somewhat on his later style.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on July 21, 2021, 06:45:55 AM
Pieter-Jan Belder released a recording of English Suites this spring. It is fair/average.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: JBS on August 16, 2021, 07:15:36 PM
Cross post from the Listening thread

About 2/3rds of the way through this one
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/519CLpiui2S..jpg)

The novel soundboard of the instrument doesn't make any real difference in my eard. The mikes seem to have been placed fairly close, but not close enough to catch whatever vocalizations Esfahani might have emitted.
There are mannerisms in the playing but not enough to mar my enjoyment.

So overall I liked it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 24, 2021, 07:49:58 AM
J.S. Bach: Clavier-Übung II, Chaconne. Aya Hamada.
Nice recording.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: vers la flamme on November 24, 2021, 07:16:47 PM
Maybe it's been discussed before, but what do y'all think of Scott Ross? His recordings of Bach's keyboard music are available cheaply in this collection...:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81QxRv8S+mL._SL500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 25, 2021, 12:34:06 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 24, 2021, 07:16:47 PM
Maybe it's been discussed before, but what do y'all think of Scott Ross? His recordings of Bach's keyboard music are available cheaply in this collection...:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81QxRv8S+mL._SL500_.jpg)



The harpsichord music is just fast and mechanical plinkety plonking. Autopilot virtuosity. That being said I thought the partitas were OK.

The CU3 is on organ - does anyone know what it is?  The performances are shallow IMO.

Ross didn't like Bach, he said he thought that the music was too prolix. 

Cheap or not I say save your money.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on November 25, 2021, 01:25:21 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 24, 2021, 07:16:47 PM
Maybe it's been discussed before, but what do y'all think of Scott Ross? His recordings of Bach's keyboard music are available cheaply in this collection...:

I agree with Mandryka: Ross' Bach wasn't his strong point.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: vers la flamme on November 25, 2021, 05:33:30 AM
Thanks, friends. I'll have to miss this one. I am interested in the performer; I don't know much about him other than that he was the first to record the complete Scarlatti sonatas.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on November 25, 2021, 05:40:37 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 25, 2021, 05:33:30 AM
Thanks, friends. I'll have to miss this one. I am interested in the performer; I don't know much about him other than that he was the first to record the complete Scarlatti sonatas.

Those and French harpsichord repertoire were his passions.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 25, 2021, 08:04:36 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 25, 2021, 05:33:30 AM
Thanks, friends. I'll have to miss this one. I am interested in the performer; I don't know much about him other than that he was the first to record the complete Scarlatti sonatas.

Did he record more Scarlatti sonatas than Fernando Valenti? I don't rate Scott Ross highly at all. In anything.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 25, 2021, 08:30:27 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 25, 2021, 08:04:36 AM
Did he record more Scarlatti sonatas than Fernando Valenti? I don't rate Scott Ross highly at all. In anything.

from Wiki:

Fernando Valenti ( New York, New York, 4 December 1926 - Red Bank, New Jersey, 6 September 1990) was an American harpsichordist. After studying with José Iturbi and Ralph Kirkpatrick and débuting in 1950, he recorded extensively, especially in the 1950s, and taught for forty years until his death. One of his most-noted students was Igor Kipnis. His recordings of Bach (two outstanding early ones for the Lyrichord Discs label) and Scarlatti (29 LPs with 346 sonatas for Westminster Records, recorded 1951 - 1961, another 8 sonatas for Music Guild in 1962, and a final set of 12 previously recorded sonatas for the Musical Heritage Society in 1964) were highly regarded.....

That makes 366 sonatas. Ross recorded all - about 555.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 25, 2021, 08:33:37 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 25, 2021, 08:04:36 AM
I don't rate Scott Ross highly at all. In anything.

I'm not quite as adverse to him, but of course his playing was often more about efficiency than musicality.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 25, 2021, 08:31:35 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 25, 2021, 08:33:37 AM
I'm not quite as adverse to him, but of course his playing was often more about efficiency than musicality.
With so much out there, I no longer see the point of him. It's interesting that he disparaged Gould yet the two seem to have similar weak points.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 26, 2021, 08:32:55 AM
Quote from: milk on November 25, 2021, 08:31:35 PM
With so much out there, I no longer see the point of him. It's interesting that he disparaged Gould yet the two seem to have similar weak points.

Well he could come up with interesting things, in Rameau for example. What do you make of the third D'Anglebert suite which is the start of this youtube upload here?

https://www.youtube.com/v/MER94ynuCXs&ab_channel=harpsichordVal


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: staxomega on November 26, 2021, 08:35:52 AM
I've been thinking about the upcoming Blandine Verlet Philips box. From what I have sampled am I right to think that her performances of JSB are generally superior on Astree? Her Goldbergs and WTC on Astree have been favorites of mine for a while (charming, imaginative, spontaneous), actually revisited the Goldbergs recently and did the unthinkable for me, I played it from start to finish! Held my attention actively listening and it was never on in just the background.

Still, there are several JSB pieces she only recorded for Philips, if anyone has suggestions for these I'm interested in exploring them. The box is reasonably priced.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: staxomega on November 26, 2021, 08:39:10 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 25, 2021, 08:04:36 AM
Did he record more Scarlatti sonatas than Fernando Valenti? I don't rate Scott Ross highly at all. In anything.

Harsh, but between the JSB I've heard from him and the Scarlatti box which I pretty much never listen to I have to agree. I find Pieter Jan Belder more sympathetic in Scarlatti, if a bit faceless at times. Pierre Hantai as well though he has some pieces that are played even more aggressively than Scott Ross (K141 comes to mind).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 26, 2021, 08:41:52 AM
Quote from: hvbias on November 26, 2021, 08:35:52 AM
I've been thinking about the upcoming Blandine Verlet Philips box. From what I have sampled am I right to think that her performances of JSB are generally superior on Astree?

Different, not superior.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on November 27, 2021, 05:06:12 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 26, 2021, 08:32:55 AM
Well he could come up with interesting things, in Rameau for example. What do you make of the third D'Anglebert suite which is the start of this youtube upload here?

https://www.youtube.com/v/MER94ynuCXs&ab_channel=harpsichordVal
Yes I agree. This kind of music is so different and he really get's inside it. It reminds me a bit of Skip Sempe the way he connects the pieces. There's some kind of Bach-syndrome that I don't understand. It happens in piano too. There are very famous pianists who are well know for other repertoire and the minute they get their hands on Bach they sound like second-rate piano teachers or something. I don't understand it. Maybe some people feel they have to play Bach a special way but they don't really know how or maybe they can't get past what their egos are telling them. With Ross, Bach should come naturally but it doesn't and his comments on Bach don't make it sounds like it's easy for him either. I know they're jokes but they sound true. Like, he plays Bach to help him quit smoking. Well, that is what it does really sound like!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 27, 2021, 06:09:46 AM
Quote from: milk on November 27, 2021, 05:06:12 AM
Yes I agree. This kind of music is so different and he really get's inside it. It reminds me a bit of Skip Sempe the way he connects the pieces. There's some kind of Bach-syndrome that I don't understand. It happens in piano too. There are very famous pianists who are well know for other repertoire and the minute they get their hands on Bach they sound like second-rate piano teachers or something. I don't understand it. Maybe some people feel they have to play Bach a special way but they don't really know how or maybe they can't get past what their egos are telling them. With Ross, Bach should come naturally but it doesn't and his comments on Bach don't make it sounds like it's easy for him either. I know they're jokes but they sound true. Like, he plays Bach to help him quit smoking. Well, that is what it does really sound like!

Not all of the D'Anglebert comes off as well as the third suite I would say. The Rameau is quite special, and it has good sound too. The comparison to Gould that you made is interesting because -- I've just got the Rameau out - it swings like Gould swung, a light but very effective swing, like a cradle in the breeze.  Listen -- the youtube doesn't do justice to the sound. I defy you not to be seduced.

https://www.youtube.com/v/IX1zu5Dw3yc&ab_channel=jsba1987

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 28, 2021, 07:41:18 AM
Quote from: hvbias on November 26, 2021, 08:35:52 AM
I've been thinking about the upcoming Blandine Verlet Philips box. From what I have sampled am I right to think that her performances of JSB are generally superior on Astree? Her Goldbergs and WTC on Astree have been favorites of mine for a while (charming, imaginative, spontaneous), actually revisited the Goldbergs recently and did the unthinkable for me, I played it from start to finish! Held my attention actively listening and it was never on in just the background.

Still, there are several JSB pieces she only recorded for Philips, if anyone has suggestions for these I'm interested in exploring them. The box is reasonably priced.

I just found my reaction on first hearing her Philips Goldberg Variations

QuoteThis is crazily original Goldberg Variations I've ever heard. When I first heard the aria I thought something must have gone wrong in the production. Elle n'est peut-être  pas nue mais elle est certainement culottée.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 28, 2021, 03:01:44 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 28, 2021, 07:41:18 AM
I just found my reaction on first hearing her Philips Goldberg Variations:

This is crazily original Goldberg Variations I've ever heard. When I first heard the aria I thought something must have gone wrong in the production. Elle n'est peut-être  pas nue mais elle est certainement culottée.

I see (hear) what you mean. On the other hand I think many musicians play the aria in a too serious, almost reverential way. Her [Verlet's] take is quite refreshing. And about her Goldbergs in general the articulation and part playing are as well as the most historically informed (as described eg. in Bruce Haynes' "The end of Early music") I have heard since long even if the recording is several decades old. Haven't heard her Valois Goldberg var. since long - wonder what it is like.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: staxomega on December 02, 2021, 05:12:35 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 28, 2021, 07:41:18 AM
I just found my reaction on first hearing her Philips Goldberg Variations

Full box is on Spotify so I listened to it over the past week. I thought the Aria from Goldberg Variations was quirky. In general I found myself preferring everything she recorded again on Astree as well as not really caring about a lot of the music not from JSB. For instance I can't see myself ever listening to Mozart's late violin sonatas played on harpsichord.

The one thing I did enjoy quite a bit were the Toccatas, which look like this is the first time they're made available on CD? Does anyone know if Philips released this separately before? This is one I will have to seek out on LP if that is indeed the case.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on December 05, 2021, 12:46:03 AM
Quote from: hvbias on December 02, 2021, 05:12:35 PM
Full box is on Spotify so I listened to it over the past week. I thought the Aria from Goldberg Variations was quirky. In general I found myself preferring everything she recorded again on Astree as well as not really caring about a lot of the music not from JSB. For instance I can't see myself ever listening to Mozart's late violin sonatas played on harpsichord.

The one thing I did enjoy quite a bit were the Toccatas, which look like this is the first time they're made available on CD? Does anyone know if Philips released this separately before? This is one I will have to seek out on LP if that is indeed the case.

Well in the partitas I think there's a tremendous fantasy and freshness for Philips recordings. I haven't heard her toccatas. But I can say that her Philips Louis Marchand and La Guerre are valuable. Her French Suites, never recorded again, need to be heard I think.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on December 07, 2021, 03:43:37 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 05, 2021, 12:46:03 AM
Well in the partitas I think there's a tremendous fantasy and freshness for Philips recordings. I haven't heard her toccatas. But I can say that her Philips Louis Marchand and La Guerre are valuable. Her French Suites, never recorded again, need to be heard I think.
Her French Suites gave me a jolt. I had an epiphany: French Suites as in French, like Couperin(s), Rameau, etc. Like, French music. Yes! That's how she does it. I'm surprised at how much there is here to adore. I'm glad to hear this stuff.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on December 07, 2021, 07:23:59 AM
Quote from: milk on December 07, 2021, 03:43:37 AM
Her French Suites gave me a jolt. I had an epiphany: French Suites as in French, like Couperin(s), Rameau, etc. Like, French music. Yes! That's how she does it. I'm surprised at how much there is here to adore. I'm glad to hear this stuff.

Thanks for posting this because it prompted me to listen to the new transfer of the French Suites. It's much better than the amateur transfer I was using before - and it is a special recording.

Everything she does at this time is highly strung. When I first started to post here I remember someone saying that he thought that her partitas for Philips are "feminine" - I think that's sexist language, but I guess that's what he meant. She's like early Argerich.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on December 10, 2021, 06:10:40 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 07, 2021, 07:23:59 AM
Thanks for posting this because it prompted me to listen to the new transfer of the French Suites. It's much better than the amateur transfer I was using before - and it is a special recording.

Everything she does at this time is highly strung. When I first started to post here I remember someone saying that he thought that her partitas for Philips are "feminine" - I think that's sexist language, but I guess that's what he meant. She's like early Argerich.
It's something I wouldn't have liked at one point maybe. It's youthful, exuberant, not overly serious. Yet it's very clever, joyous and musical.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 16, 2021, 01:21:28 AM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Afly1DXd0rY/YOu7qN8kgCI/AAAAAAAAetw/2AEOKf8bEnYjn4zmHzoNX0_ePMERaaXbwCNcBGAsYHQ/s2048/cover.jpg)
Peter Waldner playing Bach lute suites and BWV 1006 on the Lautenwerck.
Interesting release earlier this year that I missed entirely, beautiful playing and recording although on the spare and austere side.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 25, 2022, 03:49:17 AM
(https://www.brilliantclassics.com/covers/5028421964553.jpg) The keyboard book for William Friedmann played on clavichord by someone I've pushed a bit on GMG: Yuan Sheng. Sheng has recorded Bach on piano in the past.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2022, 06:28:56 AM
Quote from: milk on February 25, 2022, 03:49:17 AM
(https://www.brilliantclassics.com/covers/5028421964553.jpg) The keyboard book for William Friedmann played on clavichord by someone I've pushed a bit on GMG: Yuan Sheng. Sheng has recorded Bach on piano in the past.

If that had been released 40 years ago, in 1980, everyone would have said « too romantic, too slow, too expressive, not enough forward motion, too lyrical, too unrhetorical, not enough music as speech,  underarticulated, too anachronistic, too wayward »

Now I'm not so sure, have we all lost confidence in the dogmas of yesteryear? I'm sure a certain Q will say it's wayward. It just sounds sweet to me! Like it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 26, 2022, 02:38:09 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2022, 06:28:56 AM
If that had been released 40 years ago, in 1980, everyone would have said « too romantic, too slow, too expressive, not enough forward motion, too lyrical, too unrhetorical, not enough music as speech,  underarticulated, too anachronistic, too wayward »

Now I'm not so sure, have we all lost confidence in the dogmas of yesteryear? I'm sure a certain Q will say it's wayward. It just sounds sweet to me! Like it.
I believe he's recorded The GBVs, French Suites and Partitas on piano.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on March 25, 2022, 06:48:45 AM
(https://d1rgjmn2wmqeif.cloudfront.net/r/b/288288.jpg) Something to consider here, especially with his idiosyncratic presentation and his use of clavichord and harpsichords. It may be worth diving into.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 28, 2022, 06:17:01 PM

Quote from: milk on February 25, 2022, 03:49:17 AM
(https://www.brilliantclassics.com/covers/5028421964553.jpg) The keyboard book for William Friedmann played on clavichord by someone I've pushed a bit on GMG: Yuan Sheng. Sheng has recorded Bach on piano in the past.

Though personally I am not a big fan of his style, I think this is a very good recording with valuable interpretations.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on April 01, 2022, 07:15:59 PM
Quote from: milk on March 25, 2022, 06:48:45 AM
(https://d1rgjmn2wmqeif.cloudfront.net/r/b/288288.jpg) Something to consider here, especially with his idiosyncratic presentation and his use of clavichord and harpsichords. It may be worth diving into.
I think the draw here could be the instrument, which is unique and has interesting registrations. Honestly, I didn't investigate what the instrument is and I don't really like the sound of it anyway. The playing strikes me as being rather conservative. There are many better choices IMO.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on April 03, 2022, 08:47:41 AM
Quote from: milk on April 01, 2022, 07:15:59 PM
I think the draw here could be the instrument, which is unique and has interesting registrations. Honestly, I didn't investigate what the instrument is and I don't really like the sound of it anyway. The playing strikes me as being rather conservative. There are many better choices IMO.

Exact same impression. I mostly listened to the Hass recordings, he doesn't really use the colors of the instrument to his benefit and it sounds a bit too bright for my liking without the 16'. Rigid, unpoetic playing.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on April 03, 2022, 09:56:02 AM
Quote from: milk on April 01, 2022, 07:15:59 PM
I think the draw here could be the instrument, which is unique and has interesting registrations. Honestly, I didn't investigate what the instrument is and I don't really like the sound of it anyway. The playing strikes me as being rather conservative. There are many better choices IMO.

Amazing harpsichord -- listen to the decay, e.g. the end of 867


Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on April 03, 2022, 08:47:41 AM
Exact same impression. I mostly listened to the Hass recordings, he doesn't really use the colors of the instrument to his benefit and it sounds a bit too bright for my liking without the 16'. Rigid, unpoetic playing.

I can see that's right, but that 16' stop is wonderful.

Anyone like to tell me what this means? How is it tuned?

QuoteINTERVIEWER
It's been established that Bach composed a piece in C before transposing it to C sharp. Beyond the virtuosity
that exercise requires in many respects, does this not imply that all the keys are on the same level, so much so
that their specific 'characters', the colours that were attributed to them until then, actually disappear?

ALARD
I don't think so. There are characters and affects whose meaning is very clear and bound up with the question of
tuning. You must remember that the division of the twelve semitones of the chromatic scale is not equal: in the
term Das wohltemperierte Klavier, the word 'well-tempered' (wohltemperiert) means that the instrumentalist will
be able to play in every key, but it doesn't mean that all the keys will sound the same. Some will be harsher than
others, some will sound more brilliant or more melancholy, for example with a smaller minor third.
Given this question of transposition and also the flourishing activity of the great German theorists (Schubart,
Mattheson and so on) who described these keys in a very pertinent manner, the question of Bach's view of the
'correct temperament' has provoked much debate; recently, for example, there have been several attempts to
decipher the title page of the first book. But from Bach's point of view, respect for the notion of 'well temperament'
boiled down to a simple recommendation: that the musician should be in a position to play in all the keys. We
must not forget that our ears have changed a great deal and that today they hear intervals that are all 'equal' – if
we refer to the semitones of the western chromatic scale. It is therefore necessary to place the issue in its historical
context. Bach found a compromise in The Well-Tempered Clavier, a kind of proof, or even a testament before its
time, that every musician should be able to play in all the major and minor keys.

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/69/000147596.pdf

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 03, 2022, 01:38:41 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 03, 2022, 09:56:02 AM
Anyone like to tell me what this means? How is it tuned?

Interviewer: It's been established that Bach composed a piece in C before transposing it to C sharp. Beyond the virtuosity that exercise requires in many respects, does this not imply that all the keys are on the same level, so much so that their specific 'characters', the colours that were attributed to them until then, actually disappear?


Alard:I don't think so. There are characters and affects whose meaning is very clear and bound up with the question of tuning. You must remember that the division of the twelve semitones of the chromatic scale is not equal: in the term Das wohltemperierte Klavier, the word 'well-tempered' (wohltemperiert) means that the instrumentalist will be able to play in every key, but it doesn't mean that all the keys will sound the same. Some will be harsher than others, some will sound more brilliant or more melancholy, for example with a smaller minor third.Given this question of transposition and also the flourishing activity of the great German theorists (Schubart, Mattheson and so on) who described these keys in a very pertinent manner, the question of Bach's view of the 'correct temperament' has provoked much debate; recently, for example, there have been several attempts to decipher the title page of the first book. But from Bach's point of view, respect for the notion of 'well temperament' boiled down to a simple recommendation: that the musician should be in a position to play in all the keys. We must not forget that our ears have changed a great deal and that today they hear intervals that are all 'equal' – if we refer to the semitones of the western chromatic scale. It is therefore necessary to place the issue in its historical context. Bach found a compromise in The Well-Tempered Clavier, a kind of proof, or even a testament before its time, that every musician should be able to play in all the major and minor keys.


We are not told how the Hass harpsichord was tuned, except that it wasn't equally tuned. The point of the interviewer that transposing changes the colour of the piece in question isn't answered. But the many examples from Bach's music of him transposing his own music to relatively unrelated modes make me wonder how much - or how little - the specific color of a given mode actually meant to him. The different colors of different modes were at least less prominent in the later very modified meantone tunings (Werckmeister, Kneller eg.) than they were in straight 1/4 comma meantone.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 10, 2022, 06:32:32 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 08, 2022, 12:12:34 AM
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0130/8714/6043/products/1_351708b8-d463-44a4-9fd2-acc357cbb9e3.png?v=1647866894)

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/95/000146859.pdf

Good recording. But I found the performance substantially restrained- maybe too much. What do you think?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on April 11, 2022, 07:43:28 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 10, 2022, 06:32:32 PM
Good recording. But I found the performance substantially restrained- maybe too much. What do you think?

I just don't hear very much interesting there. It's like a good student run through. But this has happened to me before with Pinnock. I felt like that about his Louis Couperin when it was released, but lately I've found much to enjoy there. Anyway, I listened to about 20 minutes of the WTC 2 and then took refuge in Colin Booth's recording.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 12, 2022, 02:12:33 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 11, 2022, 07:43:28 AM
I just don't hear very much interesting there. It's like a good student run through. But this has happened to me before with Pinnock. I felt like that about his Louis Couperin when it was released, but lately I've found much to enjoy there. Anyway, I listened to about 20 minutes of the WTC 2 and then took refuge in Colin Booth's recording.

I am not crazy about his rhythms.  :)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on April 12, 2022, 11:10:13 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 12, 2022, 02:12:33 PM
I am not crazy about his rhythms.  :)

Yes that's one of the places where he has most to say I think.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 14, 2022, 06:52:55 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 11, 2022, 07:43:28 AM
I just don't hear very much interesting there. It's like a good student run through. But this has happened to me before with Pinnock. I felt like that about his Louis Couperin when it was released, but lately I've found much to enjoy there. Anyway, I listened to about 20 minutes of the WTC 2 and then took refuge in Colin Booth's recording.

You know what, his WTC2 is getting sound good!  ;D
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: staxomega on April 15, 2022, 04:48:38 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 10, 2022, 06:32:32 PM
Good recording. But I found the performance substantially restrained- maybe too much. What do you think?

I haven't heard Book 2 primarily because what you and Mandryka ("I just don't hear very much interesting there") wrote is how I felt about his recording of Book 1. My post on that: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,768.msg1327692.html#msg1327692

I actually do like Pinnock in general with JSB, that Book 1 was sort of an outlier.

Not really sure why it didn't connect with me, as a whole looking at Book 1 and 2 together Leonhardt's DHM recording is my favorite, and it's not exactly super flamboyant. I hate to use some vague metaphysical description but that Leonhardt recording has some real spiritual quality to it, especially in Book 2.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on May 10, 2022, 04:56:08 PM
(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273f4be1178853ba5f9bc60395d)

I was going to put this in the "Bach on unusual instruments" thread but that thread is also labeled "non-HIP." This is Bach on a large hammered dulcimer-like instrument that may be HIP after all. It's interesting, at least to me. There's organ accompaniment.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on June 20, 2022, 03:06:33 PM
(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273b3e327f60bb840cbb99d7876)
These are strong performances. She's got muscle. I can hear her teachers: Hantai, Cullier, Sempe. I think her Scarlatti must be good.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on June 27, 2022, 05:40:54 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 14, 2022, 06:52:55 PM
You know what, his WTC2 is getting sound good!  ;D

Well I revisited Pinnock's WTC 2 and it still sounds to me pretty devoid of ideas.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on June 27, 2022, 06:14:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 27, 2022, 05:40:54 AM
Well I revisited Pinnock's WTC 2 and it still sounds to me pretty devoid of ideas.

I agree about this (also true of his [Pinnock's] WTC I). Nice easygoing and polished playing on a nice sounding instrument but unfortunately modest as to individual expression.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on June 27, 2022, 11:19:02 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 27, 2022, 06:14:33 AM
I agree about this (also true of his [Pinnock's] WTC I). Nice easygoing and polished playing on a nice sounding instrument but unfortunately modest as to individual expression.
There's so much out there to enjoy so on to greener pastures. Honestly, I tried Staier and had a similar reaction even given his unique-sounding instrument.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 17, 2022, 01:44:32 PM
Likable, but no surprise or novelty. Safe performance.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Mjp2aFpcL._SX466_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 27, 2022, 03:01:07 PM
(https://e.snmc.io/i/600/s/196269ce64caa8a0cb02d4c0962dc4f3/10361878/pierre-gallon-suites-francaises-Cover-Art.jpg) this is worth a listen. It's on a very fine-sounding instrument. What's the one Asperin and Brookshire played? A Zell? Sounds like that. But I think what's note worthy is its French-ness. Just from a cursory listen it seems like he gets that without sounding like he's pushing the point. He does it with ornamentation and slower tempos. It has the atmosphere.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on October 28, 2022, 02:09:34 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 17, 2022, 01:44:32 PM
Likable, but no surprise or novelty. Safe performance.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Mjp2aFpcL._SX466_.jpg)

I really wonder what happened with Belder and Bach?  ::)

A relationship that started out so promising but steadily ran out of passion and imagination...
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on October 28, 2022, 02:24:57 AM
Quote from: milk on October 27, 2022, 03:01:07 PM
(https://e.snmc.io/i/600/s/196269ce64caa8a0cb02d4c0962dc4f3/10361878/pierre-gallon-suites-francaises-Cover-Art.jpg) this is worth a listen. It's on a very fine-sounding instrument. What's the one Asperin and Brookshire played? A Zell? Sounds like that. But I think what's note worthy is its French-ness. Just from a cursory listen it seems like he gets that without sounding like he's pushing the point. He does it with ornamentation and slower tempos. It has the atmosphere.

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/62/000153126.pdf
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 28, 2022, 05:05:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 28, 2022, 02:24:57 AM
https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/62/000153126.pdf
I see. Not the same at all. It's Flemish. Anyway, I'm up for another listen of this.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 28, 2022, 08:28:22 AM
Out of curiosity, for those of you who particularly enjoy recordings of harpsichords, have you found that early recordings (say like from the 60's and 70's) sound harsher on your ears than later ones?  And do you also hear much differences stylistically in terms of playing and interpretations/speed, etc.?

PD
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on October 28, 2022, 09:16:19 AM
I think probably what happened is that the style developed in the Amsterdam Conservatory started to be more widely known about -- through LPs -- from the mid 1960s, and gradually became a dominant one internationally. More embellishment through tempo rubato, a greater awareness about what can be done with touch, attack, agogics and hesitations, ornamentation, phrasing, and contrapuntal textures. And more attention paid to the quality of the instrument. I don't think there has been any real fundamental changes to the way people play harpsichord since, apart from Rubsam -- but Rubsam's work on harpsichord is very recently in the public domain, so it's too early to comment on its influence.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 28, 2022, 10:34:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 28, 2022, 09:16:19 AM
I think probably what happened is that the style developed in the Amsterdam Conservatory started to be more widely known about -- through LPs -- from the mid 1960s, and gradually became a dominant one internationally. More embellishment through tempo rubato, a greater awareness about what can be done with touch, attack, agogics and hesitations, ornamentation, phrasing, and contrapuntal textures. And more attention paid to the quality of the instrument. I don't think there has been any real fundamental changes to the way people play harpsichord since, apart from Rubsam -- but Rubsam's work on harpsichord is very recently in the public domain, so it's too early to comment on its influence.
Thank you for your thoughtful replay.  :)

I hadn't realized that the AC was so important in the development and influence of the music.

I started rethinking my general dislike or indifference to harpsichord recordings after listening to that Hamburg 1734 CD.  There are some notes that I just found on all music .com's website I'd be curious as to what you about them.  Here are a couple of quotes which I found to be of interest: 

"The purpose of the title is designed to honor the harpsichord in use, a lavish two-manual instrument that is a copy of one built by Hieronymous Albrecht Hass in Hamburg in 1734. This harpsichord has a big sound, somewhat similar to the Ruckers instrument Wanda Landowska once played, or the kinds of harpsichords favored by E. Power Biggs."

and...

"Staier's liner notes focus solidly on the instrument, and seem to herald its reconstruction as a return to the type of fat, romantically conceived harpsichord sound common to instruments before 1960, like Landowska's. Nevertheless, this tone is already familiar to those who like harpsichord music, and in a sense, the Hass instrument sounds comparatively "ordinary." "

PD
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on October 28, 2022, 12:44:25 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 28, 2022, 10:34:53 AM
Thank you for your thoughtful replay.  :)

I hadn't realized that the AC was so important in the development and influence of the music.

I started rethinking my general dislike or indifference to harpsichord recordings after listening to that Hamburg 1734 CD.  There are some notes that I just found on all music .com's website I'd be curious as to what you about them.  Here are a couple of quotes which I found to be of interest: 

"The purpose of the title is designed to honor the harpsichord in use, a lavish two-manual instrument that is a copy of one built by Hieronymous Albrecht Hass in Hamburg in 1734. This harpsichord has a big sound, somewhat similar to the Ruckers instrument Wanda Landowska once played, or the kinds of harpsichords favored by E. Power Biggs."

and...

"Staier's liner notes focus solidly on the instrument, and seem to herald its reconstruction as a return to the type of fat, romantically conceived harpsichord sound common to instruments before 1960, like Landowska's. Nevertheless, this tone is already familiar to those who like harpsichord music, and in a sense, the Hass instrument sounds comparatively "ordinary." "

PD

The Andreas Ruckers that Landowska owned was built in 1633 -- I have never knowingly heard it.  The thing she used to record with is just a piano converted to pluck rather than tap the strings. It's hard to tell what it sounded like from her recordings but you can hear it more clearly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEV_06qW0I&t=475s&ab_channel=NarolEnterprise

I find Staier a particularly unsympathetic harpsichord player in that Hamburg CD. I want to say something offensive: I always feel as though he's playing with his boots rather than his hands on the keyboard. Just compare his performance of the Bohm prelude with Stella's and maybe you'll agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsQBrkD0mb8&ab_channel=SimoneStella-Topic

I don't believe that there's a general return to a "fat, romantically conceived harpsichord sound"
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on October 29, 2022, 05:04:20 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 28, 2022, 12:44:25 PM
The Andreas Ruckers that Landowska owned was built in 1633 -- I have never knowingly heard it.  The thing she used to record with is just a piano converted to pluck rather than tap the strings. It's hard to tell what it sounded like from her recordings but you can hear it more clearly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEV_06qW0I&t=475s&ab_channel=NarolEnterprise

I find Staier a particularly unsympathetic harpsichord player in that Hamburg CD. I want to say something offensive: I always feel as though he's playing with his boots rather than his hands on the keyboard. Just compare his performance of the Bohm prelude with Stella's and maybe you'll agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsQBrkD0mb8&ab_channel=SimoneStella-Topic

I don't believe that there's a general return to a "fat, romantically conceived harpsichord sound"
I used to like Staier here and there but no longer listen to him. He had a Schumann recording liked. Maybe it's worth returning to. Maybe he did some romantic HIP recordings that are good?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on October 29, 2022, 05:08:04 AM
Quote from: milk on October 29, 2022, 05:04:20 AM
I used to like Staier here and there but no longer listen to him. He had a Schumann recording liked. Maybe it's worth returning to. Maybe he did some romantic HIP recordings that are good?

Absolutely. Staier is not a natural in Baroque, but he did some really excellent Schumann and superb Schubert.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on October 29, 2022, 08:17:54 AM
Quote from: Que on October 29, 2022, 05:08:04 AM
Absolutely. Staier is not a natural in Baroque, but he did some really excellent Schumann and superb Schubert.

Possibly, I think the clear counterexample to this rule is the Cambonnières -- and I'd say that the Scarlatti is not 100% without interest, because of the doubling up with Olivier Fortin.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on October 29, 2022, 08:44:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 29, 2022, 08:17:54 AM
Possibly, I think the clear counterexample to this rule is the Cambonnières -- and I'd say that the Scarlatti is not 100% without interest, because of the doubling up with Olivier Fortin.

Oops -- confused Staier with Sempe
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 29, 2022, 08:50:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 28, 2022, 12:44:25 PM
The Andreas Ruckers that Landowska owned was built in 1633 -- I have never knowingly heard it.  The thing she used to record with is just a piano converted to pluck rather than tap the strings. It's hard to tell what it sounded like from her recordings but you can hear it more clearly here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEV_06qW0I&t=475s&ab_channel=NarolEnterprise

I find Staier a particularly unsympathetic harpsichord player in that Hamburg CD. I want to say something offensive: I always feel as though he's playing with his boots rather than his hands on the keyboard. Just compare his performance of the Bohm prelude with Stella's and maybe you'll agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsQBrkD0mb8&ab_channel=SimoneStella-Topic

I don't believe that there's a general return to a "fat, romantically conceived harpsichord sound"
Thank you for those links.  I'll do a little comparison test later re the Bohm.  Must admit though that I wasn't particularly keen on the sound of either of those harpsichord recordings though, to be fair, I'm just listening to them through my computer.  I'll try hooking up my little but nice MM1 speakers to my computer after doing some errands.

By the way, that's the only Staier recording that I have of his. 

PD
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 29, 2022, 11:50:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 29, 2022, 08:44:46 AM
Oops -- confused Staier with Sempe

But anyhow you are right. Staier's two Scarlatti CDs are not 100% without interest.

And from the top of my head I recall two Bach CDs of some interest:
1) Fantasies & Fugues (DHM)
2) Sonate per il cembalo (Teldec)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 07, 2022, 08:23:26 AM
Quote from: milk on October 27, 2022, 03:01:07 PM
(https://e.snmc.io/i/600/s/196269ce64caa8a0cb02d4c0962dc4f3/10361878/pierre-gallon-suites-francaises-Cover-Art.jpg) this is worth a listen. It's on a very fine-sounding instrument. What's the one Asperin and Brookshire played? A Zell? Sounds like that. But I think what's note worthy is its French-ness. Just from a cursory listen it seems like he gets that without sounding like he's pushing the point. He does it with ornamentation and slower tempos. It has the atmosphere.

I like it!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on December 03, 2022, 11:55:29 PM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM4MDIyMy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjgwOTkwMzZ9)

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/11/000153811.pdf


Quite nice and slow, poetic, a bit grand and theatrical - pretty mainstream interpretation by the standards of today, but none the worse for that. Colourful harpsichord (clearly a revalement)  I haven't heard anything which makes it stand out from a crowded field, but quite nice as I say. Too close really, no sense of room, or maybe we're hearing it from the player's point of view - it sounds colourful and has impact, but somehow you lose any delicacy and refinement and elegance.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 09, 2023, 02:24:02 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 08, 2023, 05:52:24 PMI checked the Sempe recording. For some reason it doesn't appeal to me. I don't know why. As you know, I like the JSB transcriptions recording by Leonhardt.

Quote from: Mandryka on January 09, 2023, 01:26:46 PMHave you heard the Leonhardt transcriptions played by Loreggian?

https://www.brilliantclassics.com/articles/j/js-bach-violin-sonatas-partitas-cello-suites-transcribed-for-harpsichord-by-gustav-leonhardt

(I prefer a more introverted and tender approach than either Leonhardt, Asperen or Loreggian. I like Hopkinson Smith and Rübsam)


 I like the  Loreggian, but it sounds loud/harsh sometimes. Smith is good, but I want some sharpness a little. Probably I'm biased, but Leon sounds elegant and cool to me. I remember I liked the Asperen as well. I will check the Rubsam. Thank you for the suggestion.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 09, 2023, 07:11:28 PM
Don't forget the 1010  by Leonhardt,  recorded on a Zell. It's on a Seon recording with the Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue.

The Rübsam benefits from a lovely sounding instrument - sometimes he reminds me of those interpretations of Schubert long form piano music where the pianist makes it sound like someone wondering, groping, losing narrative  - Lonquich, Richter. Bach as Morton Feldman avant la lettre!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: JBS on January 09, 2023, 07:24:51 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 09, 2023, 07:11:28 PMDon't forget the 1010  by Leonhardt,  recorded on a Zell. It's on a Seon recording with the Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue.

The Rübsam benefits from a lovely sounding instrument - sometimes he reminds me of those interpretations of Schubert long form piano music where the pianist makes it sound like someone wondering, groping, losing narrative  - Lonquich, Richter. Bach as Morton Feldman avant la lettre!

The Leonhardt on Youtube.
https://youtu.be/nEyywMaHWek

To me it seems much too sluggish, or (more positively) more meditative. I'm not sure it's possible to be more introverted.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 09, 2023, 11:45:31 PM
Quote from: JBS on January 09, 2023, 07:24:51 PMThe Leonhardt on Youtube.
https://youtu.be/nEyywMaHWek

To me it seems much too sluggish, or (more positively) more meditative. I'm not sure it's possible to be more introverted.

My reservations are partly due to the pulse, the rhythm, in Leonhardt's performance. Listen to Hopkinson Smith, and the way he manages the rhythm, it sounds much more internal and expressive to me.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 10, 2023, 03:08:27 AM
Why does it seem like the world has been quiet lately when it comes to Bach on the instruments relating to this thread? Was 2022 a slow year?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 10, 2023, 04:45:43 AM
Quote from: milk on January 10, 2023, 03:08:27 AMWhy does it seem like the world has been quiet lately when it comes to Bach on the instruments relating to this thread? Was 2022 a slow year?

What did you think of Kenneth Weiss's AoF. Someone I know who actually teaches baroque music in a European university was in raptures about Rondeau's Goldbergs - " best ever" apparently. I haven't heard it, though I heard him in concert with it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 10, 2023, 06:13:57 AM
Quote from: JBS on January 09, 2023, 07:24:51 PMThe Leonhardt on Youtube.
https://youtu.be/nEyywMaHWek

To me it seems much too sluggish, or (more positively) more meditative. I'm not sure it's possible to be more introverted.

Quote from: Mandryka on January 09, 2023, 11:45:31 PMMy reservations are partly due to the pulse, the rhythm, in Leonhardt's performance. Listen to Hopkinson Smith, and the way he manages the rhythm, it sounds much more internal and expressive to me.

I like the left hand, rhythm, and overall jazziness. Very different from the cello though.
I like the thick sound of instrument as well.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 10, 2023, 06:18:11 AM
Julian Bream, guitar.


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 10, 2023, 08:14:30 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 10, 2023, 06:13:57 AMI like the left hand, rhythm, and overall jazziness. Very different from the cello though.
I like the thick sound of instrument as well.

Jazzy is a good word for it. It's quite hard core!   I think it's a Zell harpsichord.

Oh, I see only the prelude is on youtube, which is a shame. And strange those comments there about Bruno Cocset.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 10, 2023, 09:07:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 10, 2023, 08:14:30 AMJazzy is a good word for it. It's quite hard core!  I think it's a Zell harpsichord.

Oh, I see only the prelude is on youtube, which is a shame. And strange those comments there about Bruno Cocset.


Sounds opulent and exotic. I will look for other recordings with this instrument. I would appreciate a suggestion if anybody happens to remember any good recordings.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 10, 2023, 10:10:41 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 10, 2023, 09:07:46 AMSounds opulent and exotic. I will look for other recordings with this instrument. I would appreciate a suggestion if anybody happens to remember any good recordings.

Your wish is my command - though Leonhardt may have used the original Hamburg Zell.

http://www.kojimarokuon.com/disc/ALCD1187.html

And this possibly - it certainly sounds like a top tier harpsichord

https://www.amazon.de/Gustav-Leonhardt-Italienische-Cembalo-Consortmusik/dp/B0000251BA/ref=sr_1_9?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=frescobaldi+leonhardt&qid=1603569522&s=music&sr=1-9

And this, IMO a top tier performance

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/sept07/bach_asperen_3857952.htm

And another "after" - if you search 1728  zell cd you'll find there are loads more "afters"

https://www.discogs.com/release/12321481-Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Glen-Wilson-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-II-The-Well-Tempered-Clavier-Le-Clavie
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 10, 2023, 11:09:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 10, 2023, 10:10:41 AMYour wish is my command - though Leonhardt may have used the original Hamburg Zell.

And this possibly - it certainly sounds like a top tier harpsichord

https://www.amazon.de/Gustav-Leonhardt-Italienische-Cembalo-Consortmusik/dp/B0000251BA/ref=sr_1_9?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=frescobaldi+leonhardt&qid=1603569522&s=music&sr=1-9

And this, IMO a top tier performance

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/sept07/bach_asperen_3857952.htm

And another "after" - if you search 1728  zell cd you'll find there are loads more "afters"

https://www.discogs.com/release/12321481-Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Glen-Wilson-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-II-The-Well-Tempered-Clavier-Le-Clavie

Leonhardt plays the original Zell from Hamburg in BWV 1010. And van Asperen uses the same instrument for his WTC.  Also Alan Curtis uses the original Zell for his English and French suites (Telefunken).

No Zell instrument is used for the Leonhardt Italienische Cembalo/Consort music CD, the Frescobaldi pieces are shared between an Italian harpsichord (unspecified in the booklet) and a Kirkman harpsichord 1766 from London. The Scarlatti sonatas are played on a modern harpsichord by R Schütze, Heidelberg.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 10, 2023, 11:19:14 AM
Here is an almost complete Gustav Leonhardt discography:

http://www.heinrichvontrotta.eu/Leonhardt/home.htm
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 10, 2023, 11:45:22 AM
I own the Curtis, Asperen, and Wilson. I agree that they all are wonderful. I will re-listen to them carefully and compare them this week.
I must be more careful about the instruments in the recordings I have.
The Leonhardt edition looks cool anyway. I will look for the recording.
Mandryka knows Japanese artists more than average Japanese listners. I will get the Takehisa in Japan next month. I assume Mandryka has good opinion about the recording/artist.
Thanks a lot!

Do you gents like the instrument like I do?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 10, 2023, 12:16:19 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 10, 2023, 11:45:22 AMI own the Curtis, Asperen, and Wilson. I agree that they all are wonderful. I will re-listen to them carefully and compare them this week.
I must be more careful about the instruments in the recordings I have.
The Leonhardt edition looks cool anyway. I will look for the recording.
Mandryka knows Japanese artists more than average Japanese listners. I will get the Takehisa in Japan next month. I assume Mandryka has good opinion about the recording/artist.
Thanks a lot!

Do you gents like the instrument like I do?

Takehisa is @milk 's baby more than mine - and in truth I've only listened to his BK 2 on that recording, which uses piano.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 10, 2023, 02:43:40 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 10, 2023, 11:45:22 AMDo you gents like the instrument like I do?

The answer from me can only be yes.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 10, 2023, 03:07:11 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 09, 2023, 07:11:28 PMThe Rübsam benefits from a lovely sounding instrument - sometimes he reminds me of those interpretations of Schubert long form piano music where the pianist makes it sound like someone wondering, groping, losing narrative  - Lonquich, Richter. Bach as Morton Feldman avant la lettre!

Yes the cello and violin transcriptions sound good!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 10, 2023, 03:56:54 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 10, 2023, 04:45:43 AMWhat did you think of Kenneth Weiss's AoF. Someone I know who actually teaches baroque music in a European university was in raptures about Rondeau's Goldbergs - " best ever" apparently. I haven't heard it, though I heard him in concert with it.
I'm glad you reminded me to listen to Weiss. He's usually great. I had a good reaction to Rondeau the first time but a less good one the second. I'm not sure. I remember thinking he's very busy. ETA: I can't be negative about Rondeau and a lot of people should and will enjoy his recording. It's energetic and fresh. I'm not sure why my tastes have changed or how. Rondeau is painting in bright colors and I will enjoy it on a day when I'm looking for pure sunshine. What do you think is a very intimate and soft rendition I wonder? ...because Rondeau isn't that. But Rondeau is recommended.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on January 10, 2023, 04:26:52 PM
Quote from: milk on January 10, 2023, 03:56:54 PMI'm glad you reminded me to listen to Weiss.

I wasn't that taken by Weiss' AoF as I had expected, but this is first and foremost caused by the recorded sound, which I find subpar, more than the interpretation, which I find rather sympathetic.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2023, 12:21:54 AM
Quote from: premont on January 10, 2023, 04:26:52 PMI wasn't that taken by Weiss' AoF as I had expected, but this is first and foremost caused by the recorded sound, which I find subpar, more than the interpretation, which I find rather sympathetic.


Well that shows how subjective things are, because the sound seems OK to me! A bit close, but it wouldn't be the first. The interpretation is growing on me. Put it like this: the world is a better place slightly because Weiss's AoF exists, or maybe I should say my world.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on January 12, 2023, 12:37:28 AM
Quote from: milk on January 10, 2023, 03:56:54 PMWhat do you think is a very intimate and soft rendition

Egarr and Rübsam obvs.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on January 12, 2023, 02:01:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 10, 2023, 10:10:41 AMYour wish is my command - though Leonhardt may have used the original Hamburg Zell.

http://www.kojimarokuon.com/disc/ALCD1187.html

And this possibly - it certainly sounds like a top tier harpsichord

https://www.amazon.de/Gustav-Leonhardt-Italienische-Cembalo-Consortmusik/dp/B0000251BA/ref=sr_1_9?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=frescobaldi+leonhardt&qid=1603569522&s=music&sr=1-9

And this, IMO a top tier performance

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/sept07/bach_asperen_3857952.htm

And another "after" - if you search 1728  zell cd you'll find there are loads more "afters"

https://www.discogs.com/release/12321481-Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Glen-Wilson-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-II-The-Well-Tempered-Clavier-Le-Clavie
Shall I listen to  Van Asperen's WTC? I need inspiration.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 06, 2023, 04:17:36 AM
(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b2739d9a461032d1d9bb81f52ebf)
I don't really know him but I thought this might be a chance to discuss this. It will take me a while to listen to this a few times and get something to say about it but so far I think this recording is worth paying attention to.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2023, 10:13:17 AM
It's very Italian style


https://www.wethepeoplestyle.com/2017/12/italian-style-rules/
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 06, 2023, 02:34:18 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2023, 10:13:17 AMIt's very Italian style


https://www.wethepeoplestyle.com/2017/12/italian-style-rules/
I guess I can hear how this fits or how he finds the Italian in it. The D-minor set in book 2, on fortepiano, is quite something. I think a lot of his playing on Bk 2 is particularly interesting.
Bach was very influenced by Italian music right? So it's already there, right? I like having both ends of the spectrum represented on my playlists, as long as it's true to the music.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on February 06, 2023, 08:08:09 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 09, 2023, 07:11:28 PMDon't forget the 1010  by Leonhardt,  recorded on a Zell. It's on a Seon recording with the Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue.

The Rübsam benefits from a lovely sounding instrument - sometimes he reminds me of those interpretations of Schubert long form piano music where the pianist makes it sound like someone wondering, groping, losing narrative  - Lonquich, Richter. Bach as Morton Feldman avant la lettre!


Quote from: Mandryka on January 09, 2023, 11:45:31 PMMy reservations are partly due to the pulse, the rhythm, in Leonhardt's performance. Listen to Hopkinson Smith, and the way he manages the rhythm, it sounds much more internal and expressive to me.


In general, timing of Hopkinson Smith is very likable, but often some of his notes get weak or unclear. Nowadays, I like Sato and Konrad Junghanel more. Plus maybe early Imamura.
The below is 1010 by Sato, picturesque and very wide, imo.





P.s. I'd like to add Julian Bream's 1000 for your consideration please.

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on February 07, 2023, 01:16:40 PM
I've been wondering if should purchase this disc or not. Any idea?


(https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/tAoAAOSwmLlYA5-D/s-l500.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on February 07, 2023, 02:23:44 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on February 07, 2023, 01:16:40 PMI've been wondering if should purchase this disc or not. Any idea?


(https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/tAoAAOSwmLlYA5-D/s-l500.jpg)

This is an old recording, I didn't know it was available at all and I haven't heard it. As to Laura Alvini who died 2005, I own a few recordings (Händel 8 Great suites, Beethoven Kurfürsten Sonaten on fortepiano and JS Bach's harpsichord/v. da gamba sonatas). Her playing is informed and imbued with what I may call sober and sound musicianship.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on February 08, 2023, 01:35:31 PM
Quote from: milk on February 06, 2023, 04:17:36 AM(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b2739d9a461032d1d9bb81f52ebf)
I don't really know him but I thought this might be a chance to discuss this. It will take me a while to listen to this a few times and get something to say about it but so far I think this recording is worth paying attention to.

Nice recording. Some pieces are a little fast, but overall the music sounds gorgeous and very likable.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 09, 2023, 05:04:15 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on February 08, 2023, 01:35:31 PMNice recording. Some pieces are a little fast, but overall the music sounds gorgeous and very likable.
I'm really enjoying it. I find a lot of invention, exuberance and spirit here. Italian is right! I'm always waiting for a new WTC to come along like this. It's a shame pianists can't seem to do it as well, not IMO - not as often do they come a long with the goods.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 09, 2023, 05:50:09 AM
If we take the definition of Italian Style from that article I linked, viz:

bold prints, loud hues and statement dressing

then Baino isn't just Italian, he is Itialianissimo.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on February 09, 2023, 06:27:57 AM
Would you describe Dantone's WTC in the same way?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 09, 2023, 07:20:12 AM
Quote from: premont on February 09, 2023, 06:27:57 AMWould you describe Dantone's WTC in the same way?

I don't know and that thought had crossed my mind. From memory Dantone is less self confident and assertive than Baiano, but it's a long time since I heard it.  There's also Bachetti on piano to think about. I like Bachetti very much.

(I should say I've not listened to any of Baiano's Bk 1)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 09, 2023, 08:46:49 AM
Baiano very good in the 877 fugue -- clavichord.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2023, 03:40:00 AM
French Suite III in the modern expressive style by Masami Unsui

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbxrD5jEcQY&ab_channel=MasamiUsui
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on February 28, 2023, 12:02:17 AM
(https://davidponsford.org/images/img100-29rvcopy_1593361323.jpg?n=1593361324917set)

It's very good. He comments that

My justification for arranging these works for two harpsichords derives from the preface to François Couperin's L'apothéose de Lully (1725) in which he describes the manner in which he often played trio sonatas on two harpsichords:

Trios . . . can be played on two harpsichords . . . I play them with my family and pupils with very happy success, namely, by playing the first treble part and the bass on one of the harpsichords; and the second treble part and the same bass on the other harpsichord tuned to the same pitch.

  For me, the experiment of arranging Bach's Organ Trio Sonatas was too tempting to resist. The result is a transformation of these famous trio   sonatas, giving them a character that is neither better nor worse than interpretations on the organ, but very different and no less exciting.



And IMO that's the best sort of HIP practice.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on February 28, 2023, 12:51:46 AM
Thnx... I lined it up on Spotify!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on February 28, 2023, 09:18:41 PM
Quote from: milk on February 06, 2023, 04:17:36 AM(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b2739d9a461032d1d9bb81f52ebf)
I don't really know him but I thought this might be a chance to discuss this. It will take me a while to listen to this a few times and get something to say about it but so far I think this recording is worth paying attention to.
The Baiano has been really rewarding listening for me. I need a reason to go back into my favorite music. Baiano is engaging. Never dull.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Que on March 01, 2023, 11:59:54 AM
Quote from: milk on February 28, 2023, 09:18:41 PMThe Baiano has been really rewarding listening for me. I need a reason to go back into my favorite music. Baiano is engaging. Never dull.

I can really recommend any of his earlier recordings: Cabézon, Frecobaldi, Froberger, Scarlatti, Paradisi, Vivaldi transcr. and Neapolitan harpsichord music.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on March 07, 2023, 03:05:26 PM
Quote from: Que on March 01, 2023, 11:59:54 AMI can really recommend any of his earlier recordings: Cabézon, Frecobaldi, Froberger, Scarlatti, Paradisi, Vivaldi transcr. and Neapolitan harpsichord music.
I will head towards those recordings. Thanks!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: San Antone on March 09, 2023, 05:47:20 AM
I recently came across a new set by Andreas Staier

Book 1 came out this year

(https://d1rgjmn2wmqeif.cloudfront.net/r/b/356902-1.jpg)

He started with Book 2, released 2021

(https://d1rgjmn2wmqeif.cloudfront.net/r/b/253043.jpg)

I am still listening to them, but I am right now listening to the Enrico Baiano that came up in this thread.  From what I can tell so  far, it is another nice recording of the WTC. 

But give Staier a try - they are somewhat similar in choice of instruments.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on March 15, 2023, 06:57:18 PM
Quote from: San Antone on March 09, 2023, 05:47:20 AMI recently came across a new set by Andreas Staier

Book 1 came out this year

(https://d1rgjmn2wmqeif.cloudfront.net/r/b/356902-1.jpg)

He started with Book 2, released 2021

(https://d1rgjmn2wmqeif.cloudfront.net/r/b/253043.jpg)

I am still listening to them, but I am right now listening to the Enrico Baiano that came up in this thread.  From what I can tell so  far, it is another nice recording of the WTC. 

But give Staier a try - they are somewhat similar in choice of instruments.
I've been listening to Baiano and I like it a lot. I admit I didn't give Staier much of a chance. I don't know what it is with him. He's been around so long and it seems like there's something of his that I've liked but I'm usually not responding to his Bach or baroque. But maybe I can give him another listen.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: vers la flamme on April 24, 2023, 05:16:09 PM
Is there a good WTC on harpsichord that isn't crazy expensive or hard to find?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DavidW on April 24, 2023, 05:23:05 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 24, 2023, 05:16:09 PMIs there a good WTC on harpsichord that isn't crazy expensive or hard to find?

Fantastic and cheap enjoy! (https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Well-Tempered-Clavier-Books/dp/B075Y9LMZ3)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41sZP89FR+L._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 25, 2023, 03:39:23 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 24, 2023, 05:16:09 PMIs there a good WTC on harpsichord that isn't crazy expensive or hard to find?


Glen Wilson.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: BWV 1080 on April 25, 2023, 04:03:35 PM
Schornsheim

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on April 25, 2023, 07:04:37 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 24, 2023, 05:16:09 PMIs there a good WTC on harpsichord that isn't crazy expensive or hard to find?

There is, and it's a doozy, IF he'll send it to you in America. Colin Booth's Christmas offer is still running - this is one of the great WTCs and is more informed by latest understanding of the score than Leonhardt or Asperen or whatever.

https://www.colinbooth.co.uk/bach-well-tempered-clavier-book-1-and-2

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on April 26, 2023, 04:11:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 25, 2023, 07:04:37 PMThere is, and it's a doozy, IF he'll send it to you in America. Colin Booth's Christmas offer is still running - this is one of the great WTCs and is more informed by latest understanding of the score than Leonhardt or Asperen or whatever.

Colin Booth is of course a great choice. Another might be Steven Devine, incidentally playing an instrument made by Colin Booth.

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 25, 2023, 03:39:23 PMGlen Wilson.

As far as I know Glen Wilson's set is neither cheap nor easy to get hold on.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: vers la flamme on April 26, 2023, 10:20:12 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 25, 2023, 07:04:37 PMmore informed by latest understanding of the score than Leonhardt or Asperen or whatever.

Care to pontificate elaborate on this matter? Or perhaps you have a good PhD thesis for me to read on the subject? ;D

Quote from: premont on April 26, 2023, 04:11:32 AMAs far as I know Glen Wilson's set is neither cheap nor easy to get hold on.

I found this to be the case unfortunately after reading DBK's suggestion :/
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on April 26, 2023, 10:25:23 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 26, 2023, 10:20:12 AMOr perhaps you have a good PhD thesis for me to read on the subject? ;D


https://www.colinbooth.co.uk/did-bach-really-mean-that-colin-booth

I got it out actually and listened to half a dozen pieces. It is full of little insights which noone else has -- accents, rhythms, ornaments, changes to note liaisons etc.  All very natural, it's only through close listening and an awareness of the tradition that you notice just how much care and imagination has gone into the performance.  Nice instrument, well recorded.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 04, 2023, 01:08:04 AM
(https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Koopman-K07%5BCalig%5D.JPG)

Ton Koopman's first recording of the French Suites, 1975

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4zcmXUZ6Ow&ab_channel=HarpsichordVinylGallery
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 04, 2023, 08:46:53 AM
Jfyi, the links to the WTC2, French and English Suites by Picht-Axenfeld are below, respectively.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nCgFRVVaOllhwvsqaU8fDP1tjWanDyre0

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lI2iRH0MxCEeylx_wtc1dj6SFifCO3UE8

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mf1ckH9gDyTxrTrxz4XETqD_ZGNCMFTbg



Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 06, 2023, 03:04:28 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 04, 2023, 08:46:53 AMJfyi, the links to the WTC2, French and English Suites by Picht-Axenfeld are below, respectively.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nCgFRVVaOllhwvsqaU8fDP1tjWanDyre0 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nCgFRVVaOllhwvsqaU8fDP1tjWanDyre0)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lI2iRH0MxCEeylx_wtc1dj6SFifCO3UE8 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lI2iRH0MxCEeylx_wtc1dj6SFifCO3UE8)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mf1ckH9gDyTxrTrxz4XETqD_ZGNCMFTbg (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mf1ckH9gDyTxrTrxz4XETqD_ZGNCMFTbg)

From the perspective of historical information these recordings are interesting as being typical transitional "pre-informed" interpretetions played on revival harpsichords (by Thurston Dart ironically named pianochords) along with the recordings by Hans Pischner, Martin Galling, Zuzana Růžičková, Helmut Walcha et.c. What chacterizes this style is a strict trueness to the score, steady rhythm (meaning no rhetoric nor expressive rubato) and lack of distinctive and varied articulation. This style was a reaction against the earlier romantic style, and as such it was an important transitory style until the HIP movement took over. Picht-Axenfeld was one of the most important exponents of the transitional style.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 06, 2023, 03:15:56 PM
Quote from: premont on May 06, 2023, 03:04:28 PMFrom the perspective of historical information these recordings are interesting as being typical transitional "pre-informed" interpretetions played on revival harpsichords (by Thurston Dart ironically named pianochords) along with the recordings by Hans Pischner, Martin Galling, Zuzana Růžičková, Helmut Walcha et.c. What chacterizes this style is a strict trueness to the score, steady rhythm (meaning no rhetoric nor expressive rubato) and lack of distinctive and varied articulation. This style was a reaction against the earlier romantic style, and as such it was an important transitory style until the HIP movement took over. Picht-Axenfeld was one of the most important exponents of the transitional style.


Thank you for the insightful explanation. When you say "lack of distinctive and varied articulation" does it suggest a relative lack of liberty/novelity in interpretation?

You called the performances in the East German Silbermann organ set from Berlin Classics "transitional style". Did you mean similar?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 06, 2023, 03:35:57 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 06, 2023, 03:15:56 PMThank you for the insightful explanation. When you say "lack of distinctive and varied articulation" does it suggest a relative lack of liberty/novelity in interpretation??

Yes, just that.

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 06, 2023, 03:15:56 PMYou called the performances in the East German Silbermann organ set from Berlin Classics "transitional style". Did you mean similar?

Yes, but I don't use the term "transitional style" in a derogative way. The greatest exponents of this style are most often impressive listening (Walcha, Kirkpatrick eg.), and actually we don't know how much "expression" the baroque musicians put into their playing. I grew up with the transitional style and this style may still be a beneficial antidote to the often overexpressive HIP style. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 06, 2023, 04:28:03 PM
Quote from: premont on May 06, 2023, 03:35:57 PMYes, just that.

Yes, but I don't use the term "transitional style" in a derogative way. The greatest exponents of this style are most often impressive listening (Walcha, Kirkpatrick eg.), and actually we don't know how much "expression" the baroque musicians put into their playing. I grew up with the transitional style and this style may still be a beneficial antidote to the often overexpressive HIP style. 

Possibly are you suggesting that often "less is more" in terms of expression?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 07, 2023, 05:05:26 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 06, 2023, 04:28:03 PMPossibly are you suggesting that often "less is more" in terms of expression?

Yes, you can say that. At least too much "expression" may be tiresome listening.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 07, 2023, 03:46:20 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 04, 2023, 01:08:04 AM(https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Koopman-K07%5BCalig%5D.JPG)

Ton Koopman's first recording of the French Suites, 1975

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4zcmXUZ6Ow&ab_channel=HarpsichordVinylGallery

I wonder what you especially like in the performance.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 07, 2023, 07:41:27 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 07, 2023, 03:46:20 PMI wonder what you especially like in the performance.

I like it because it sounds like a sincere declaration of love.

The Erato recording is better I think.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 08, 2023, 04:46:03 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 07, 2023, 07:41:27 PMI like it because it sounds like a sincere declaration of love.

The Erato recording is better I think.

Wonderful opinion. Will check the Erato disc.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 08, 2023, 05:54:36 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 08, 2023, 04:46:03 AMWonderful opinion. Will check the Erato disc.

Among harpsichord recordings of the French suites Koopman's second recording (Erato) is my unchallenged favorite.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 09, 2023, 09:23:51 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 08, 2023, 12:33:49 PMOk I will buy the recording next month as I'm traveling this month.

And Julian Perkins on clavichord - which is possibly the performance which means most to me. A real case of ars adeo latet arte sua.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 09, 2023, 01:13:46 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 09, 2023, 09:23:51 AMAnd Julian Perkins on clavichord - which is possibly the performance which means most to me. A real case of ars adeo latet arte sua.

Perkins sounds good. Sometimes his melodic alterations are large and busy, still the overall music is elegant and very likable. Peter Hill is a challenge for me. I'll come back to him in a few months.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 09, 2023, 02:49:36 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 09, 2023, 01:13:46 PMPerkins sounds good. Sometimes his melodic alterations are large and busy, still the overall music is elegant and very likable. Peter Hill is a challenge for me. I'll come back to him in a few months.

Some other options - which I am very happy with - are

Colin Tilney - clavichord (Music & Arts)
Wolfgang Rübsam - piano (Naxos)
Wolfgang Rübsam - lute harpsichord (Brilliant classics)

I'm also going to explore Peter Hill after recently having enjoyed his WTC I & II.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: BWV 1080 on May 10, 2023, 08:44:23 AM
Quote from: premont on May 09, 2023, 02:49:36 PMSome other options - which I am very happy with - are

Colin Tilney - clavichord (Music & Arts)
Wolfgang Rübsam - piano (Naxos)
Wolfgang Rübsam - lute harpsichord (Brilliant classics)

I'm also going to explore Peter Hill after recently having enjoyed his WTC I & II.

I don't care much for Hill & Rubsam's stille brise - muddles the rhythm too much for me.  Understand a wide degree of performance options exist in Baroque music, but their playing strikes me as a bit mannered.  Would be more interesting in someone who plays a stricter rhythm but with consistent notes inegales (more or less swung 8th notes), particularly on slow and mid-tempo dance movements
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2023, 09:13:43 AM
@BWV 1080 - where do you hear "style brisé" in Hill?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: BWV 1080 on May 10, 2023, 10:24:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 10, 2023, 09:13:43 AM@BWV 1080 - where do you hear "style brisé" in Hill?

Have heard him play mostly in that style on youtube, not sure about particular recordings, although @San Antone mentions Peter Hill, it is Robert Hill I am thinking about


Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: ritter on May 10, 2023, 10:59:51 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 10, 2023, 09:37:15 AM@DavidW @Brian  or other moderators
Please move the posts on French Suites piano to the Bach piano thread. Yes I started and am responsible of the nongermane posts. Sorry.
Done! Please take a look at both threads (this and the piano one) to see whether the result is satisfactory and coherent.

Regards,
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 10, 2023, 11:07:27 AM
Quote from: BWV 1080 on May 10, 2023, 10:24:49 AMHave heard him play mostly in that style on youtube, not sure about particular recordings, although @San Antone mentions Peter Hill, it is Robert Hill I am thinking about




Peter Hill (pianist) and Robert Hill (early keyboardist) are two different persons. And while we are at it, where do you hear Style Brisé in Rübsam's piano recordings?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: BWV 1080 on May 10, 2023, 11:18:03 AM
Quote from: premont on May 10, 2023, 11:07:27 AMPeter Hill (pianist) and Robert Hill (early keyboardist) are two different persons. And while we are at it, where do you hear Style Brisé in Rübsam's piano recordings?

I dont, those were from the early 90s correct?  Its his more recent Lautenwerck recordings I am referring to
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: San Antone on May 10, 2023, 11:27:30 AM
Quote from: BWV 1080 on April 25, 2023, 04:03:35 PMSchornsheim


Her ongoing WTC videos for All of Bach are really good.  Glad to her mentioned in this thread.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 10, 2023, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: BWV 1080 on May 10, 2023, 11:18:03 AMI dont, those were from the early 90s correct?

Yes.

Quote from: BWV 1080 on May 10, 2023, 11:18:03 AMIts his more recent Lautenwerck recordings I am referring to

So, what remains is that you don't like Rübsam's style in his more recent recordings on lute-harpsichord. I once asked him whether the Style Brisé was his inspiration for these recordings, and he said that this was not the case, but instead he pointed to some early Italian baroque vocal style with desynchronizations of the voices, which I don't know. Maybe Mandryka will be better to explain the point than I am.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 13, 2023, 05:34:18 AM
Re whether Rubsam makes Bach sound like style brisé, here's what Toyohiko Satoh says about Denis Gaultier's music

It used to be a mystery to me why most of these 17th century French pieces are so short. My doubts dissolved
after I started playing them as slowly as possible. If
one plays at a slow tempo and expresses each note with
nuance and timing, these pieces are not at all short, and
it makes little sense to invent even longer compositions.
I consider this to be the point where the 17th century
French "Style Brisé" differs fundamentally from the
later "Gallant style" with its many sequences (repetitive
progressions).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: BWV 1080 on May 13, 2023, 06:50:14 AM
Although I think about galant as less about the long sequences and more about stock schema (like cataloged by R Gjerdingen), punchier rhythm and a harmonic texture where most chords are some inversion of ii, V or I, similar to later 18th century classicism
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 13, 2023, 09:12:31 AM
Quote from: BWV 1080 on May 13, 2023, 06:50:14 AMAlthough I think about galant as less about the long sequences and more about stock schema (like cataloged by R Gjerdingen), punchier rhythm and a harmonic texture where most chords are some inversion of ii, V or I, similar to later 18th century classicism

According to David Yearsley (in Bach and the meaning of counterpoint) the essence of galant in Bach's milieu was aesthetic. He argues (with good support) that galant had to to do with simplification and consonance. It was opposed to old school contrapuntal music, where voices could combine even if the result was dissonance and complex textures.

I'm going on memory here, the book is on the shelf, I know exactly where it is, it would take me no time to get it, I saw it the other day, but . . .
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 13, 2023, 10:01:39 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 13, 2023, 09:12:31 AMAccording to David Yearsley (in Bach and the meaning of counterpoint) the essence of galant in Bach's milieu was aesthetic. He argues (with good support) that galant had to to do with simplification and consonance. It was opposed to old school contrapuntal music, where voices could combine even if the result was dissonance and complex textures.

I'm going on memory here, the book is on the shelf, I know exactly where it is, it would take me no time to get it, I saw it the other day, but . . .

I briefly read that that's what the son of JSB did and Frederick the Great liked the son but not JSB's "old style" music.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 13, 2023, 10:49:23 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 13, 2023, 10:01:39 AMI briefly read that that's what the son of JSB did and Frederick the Great liked the son but not JSB's "old style" music.

Well the king liked him enough to invite him to write Musical Offering, and to retain him in a very significant job.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: aukhawk on May 14, 2023, 01:20:01 AM
Rubsam worries at the music like an old dog with a bone.  I think his approach is interesting for an occasional listen, and I like the sound of his instrument.  I think he is a bit more successful in WTC II than in Book I.
In fact I am just listening to his WTC I as I write - and I was immediately shocked by his ornaments in the Prelude I in C - I don't mind him pulling the music around, but ornaments in this purest of pure statements by Bach? - no that's just wrong  :o
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 14, 2023, 01:49:56 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 14, 2023, 01:20:01 AMI don't mind him pulling the music around, but ornaments in this purest of pure statements by Bach? - no that's just wrong  :o

Double standards!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: aukhawk on May 14, 2023, 04:45:34 AM
Well it's only 3 minutes of restraint I'm asking for.  Obviously if I really didn't like him pulling and pushing at the music I wouldn't listen to him at all.  As, most times, I don't.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 16, 2023, 10:34:25 AM
Hantai plays a French suite in Leonhardt's old house

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN-_H4I5gDM&ab_channel=NetherlandsBachSociety

And another one here from Hantai, different venue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2rQtGtxpOw&ab_channel=NetherlandsBachSociety
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 17, 2023, 12:04:21 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 07, 2023, 07:41:27 PMI like it because it sounds like a sincere declaration of love.

The Erato recording is better I think.


What recordings do you (and other ladies and gents) like for the English Suites?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 17, 2023, 01:34:09 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 17, 2023, 12:04:21 PMWhat recordings do you (and other ladies and gents) like for the English Suites?


On harpsichord:

Gustav Leonhardt (both his recordings)
Bob van Asperen
Pascal Dubreuil
Colin Tilney
Alan Curtis

and I have to add:
Helmut Walcha on revival harpsichord

On piano:
Wolfgang Rúbsam (Naxos)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 17, 2023, 01:35:28 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 17, 2023, 12:04:21 PMWhat recordings do you (and other ladies and gents) like for the English Suites?


I especially like Walcha playing the 6th, the last.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 17, 2023, 02:19:40 PM
Thanks gents, I like Walcha and Leon 2. Any new talents besides Tinley?

Will check Dubreuil.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 18, 2023, 12:11:01 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh link=msg=1513199 date=Any new talents besides Tinley?


Vis à vis the English Suites, the elephant in the room is Egarr. Full of fresh ideas, and it's one of those studio recordings where you can tell somehow that he's really into it, in the mood for it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 18, 2023, 05:24:16 AM
I think Egarr's Bach is an acquired taste as is Rübsam's Bach - not that I haven't acquired it though. But there are many others and nice recordings of the English suites eg.:

Peter Watchorn
Masaaki Suzuki
Pieter-Jan Belder
Carole Cerasi
Blandine Rannou
Kenneth Gilbert (OOP)
Sophie Yates
Olga Martynova

Christophe Rousset's recording is brilliant but somewhat marred by hangar-acoustics

I have not heard the one by Lorenzo Ghielmi, but was somewhat underwhelmed by his recording of the Partitas.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 18, 2023, 05:45:57 AM
I'm not crazy about the Ghielmi. I remember I liked Parmentier. I will check Cerati, Olga and Egarr.

Feel same about the Roussett.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Franco_Manitobain on May 18, 2023, 05:48:11 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 17, 2023, 12:04:21 PMWhat recordings do you (and other ladies and gents) like for the English Suites?


I only know it on piano.  I enjoy Angela Hewitt on the piano in Bach.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: DavidW on May 18, 2023, 07:33:27 AM
Leonhardt for me.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 18, 2023, 08:45:49 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 18, 2023, 05:45:57 AMI'm not crazy about the Ghielmi. I remember I liked Parmentier. I will check Cerati, Olga and Egarr.

Feel same about the Roussett.

Yes, I forgot Parmentier. It's a long time since it spun in my CD deck, but I recall a sympathetic interpretation and not the least one of the most beautiful and well recorded harpsichords I ever have heard. Parmentier's WTC book I (he hasn't recorded book II as far as I know) is also worth to know.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 18, 2023, 04:14:12 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 17, 2023, 01:35:28 PMI especially like Walcha playing the 6th, the last.

The instrument sounds so so so cute and elegant.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 18, 2023, 08:26:08 PM
Quote from: Franco_Manitobain on May 18, 2023, 05:48:11 AMI only know it on piano.  I enjoy Angela Hewitt on the piano in Bach.

Given the context of the English Suites, that comment reminded me that Hewitt recorded one of them on her first Bach recording.  This one

https://www.discogs.com/master/1307319-J-S-Bach-Angela-Hewitt-English-Suite-No-6-BWV-811-4-Duets-BWV-802-805-Italian-Concerto-BWV-971-Tocca

I've never heard her later recording of these suites, so I can't say anything about how her point of view changed in the intervening years. I can say that this one on DG is OK.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 19, 2023, 12:35:05 PM
Quote from: premont on May 17, 2023, 01:34:09 PM
On harpsichord:

Gustav Leonhardt (both his recordings)
Bob van Asperen
Pascal Dubreuil
Colin Tilney
Alan Curtis

and I have to add:
Helmut Walcha on revival harpsichord

On piano:
Wolfgang Rúbsam (Naxos)



I like Pascal Dubreuil!
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 21, 2023, 07:45:21 AM
Thought provoking discussion by Bertrand Cuiller here, about the second English suite. Simple, unpretetentious music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by884lpyBXA&t=0s&ab_channel=NetherlandsBachSociety
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 29, 2023, 08:10:16 AM
I just read Francesco Cera's notes to the French Suites, which @Atriod kindly shared with me. This is a striking comment

. Three minor
keys followed by three major keys - this could be
described as follows by citing the interesting
definitions of three authorities of the baroque era,
Kircher, Charpentier and Mattheson: D minor (1st
suite), serious and meditative, C minor (2nd suite),
dark and sad, B minor (3rd suite), lonely and
melancholic, E flat major (4th suite), emotional and
affectionate, G major (5th suite), playful and
caressing, E major (6th suite), otherworldly. This
step-by-step sequence, almost a change from
sadness to joy, reminds of a presentation of
spiritual and religious basis of human life. In Bach's
era, religion was an unalterable value as consolation
for human life. Apart from this, Bach's instrumental
works have always been conceded a spiritual
sense, especially those with a soloist instrument.
Our imagination is not only aroused by the keys
and harmonies but also by the musical figurations,
a true symbol language in Bach's sacred music
(and not only in his sacred music). The human
being which is tormented by sin and the hardships
of life (1st suite) is forced to take a hard way through
life (2nd suite). Only prayer and the teachings of
Jesus Christ can lead him to salvation of the soul
(3rd suite). The fruit of faith is the consoling
experience of God's grace (4th suite), which only makes the joy of human love possible (5th suite)
and after death awards us with the pleasures of
paradise by Jesus Christ's side (6th suite).


It reminds me of a comment Egarr made on the structure of the set of English Suites,

. . . During the
last two suites the second Passepied and second Gavotte are
the only points of lightness that poke out from the increasing
deformities and feelings of distraction which infect the music.
This disease is most clearly evident in the final two Gigues of
the cycle. The first four Gigues have characters ranging through
amiable, to seriously energetic and oddly angular to downright
jolly (the F major is almost Handellian). The e minor and d
minor Gigues present warped, crabby themes, progressively
twisted and harmonically distorted. In the final movement of the
cycle diabolic trills infest the helpless long notes around which
incessantly restless demons dance.
This is a true cycle of pieces – one of Bach's first and
certainly one of his best. The care with which Bach has planned
their path, and the skill in creating a musical journey to a most
fearful place is astonishing. The way to redemption and salvation
after this journey is perhaps shown by the key sequence of the
Suites: A – a – g – F – e – d. These six notes clearly describe the
Chorale tune "Jesu, meine Freude" ". I recorded the Suites in order.
I certainly felt that it helped me make the musical path clearer.  . . . .



I posted a few days ago an interesting video by Francesco Corti where he asserts that the style of both sets of suites are very close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEgd_SCahRw&t=58s&ab_channel=NetherlandsBachSociety


What all this means for performance issues I cannot say.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 30, 2023, 07:54:47 AM
Revisiting the English Suites by the pupil of Gilbert and Scott Ross. Orthodox interpretation and it sounds like Leonhardt a little.


(https://mayakosone.com/wp-content/themes/sonemayako/img/6.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 30, 2023, 09:22:00 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 30, 2023, 07:54:47 AMRevisiting the English Suites by the pupil of Gilbert and Scott Ross. Orthodox interpretation and it sounds like Leonhardt a little.


(https://mayakosone.com/wp-content/themes/sonemayako/img/6.jpg)

Yes, a good and substantial interpretation. After I had purchased her English suites maybe 15 years ago I was keen to find more of her Bach recordings, but I didn't have the fortune to get hold of them.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 30, 2023, 09:59:55 AM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2023, 09:22:00 AMYes, a good and substantial interpretation. After I had purchased her English suites maybe 15 years ago I was keen to find more of her Bach recordings, but I didn't have the fortune to get hold of them.

What do you mean by substantial? I think Sone even studied with Leonhardt as well. She had recorded the Suites 2,3,6 in 1991. I had the disc long time ago but its gone now. She recorded French Suites twice and they are good/ok. Will look for these discs in Japan next year.


(https://mayakosone.com/wp-content/themes/sonemayako/img/15.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 30, 2023, 10:04:45 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 29, 2023, 08:10:16 AMWhat all this means for performance issues I cannot say.

I always take philosophy like this from musicians with a tablespoonful of salt because the "blurb" is indeed very subjectively written and nobody knows Bach's intentions. And last but not least, how are we to use these theories in the performance and when listening to the music. Nor do I know. Every suite displays it's own affect and sometimes it is even impossible to put suitable words on it. The task for the performer must be to display what he thinks the affect is. But even here is subjectivity everywhere.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 30, 2023, 10:07:02 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 30, 2023, 09:59:55 AMWhat do you mean by substantial?

That it contains stuff of quality, in this case artistic quality.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 30, 2023, 10:12:02 AM
Quote from: premont on May 06, 2023, 03:04:28 PMFrom the perspective of historical information these recordings are interesting as being typical transitional "pre-informed" interpretetions played on revival harpsichords (by Thurston Dart ironically named pianochords) along with the recordings by Hans Pischner, Martin Galling, Zuzana Růžičková, Helmut Walcha et.c. What chacterizes this style is a strict trueness to the score, steady rhythm (meaning no rhetoric nor expressive rubato) and lack of distinctive and varied articulation. This style was a reaction against the earlier romantic style, and as such it was an important transitory style until the HIP movement took over. Picht-Axenfeld was one of the most important exponents of the transitional style.



Is Richard Lester close to the transitional school style?


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/710akHbBprL._SX522_.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 30, 2023, 10:38:42 AM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2023, 10:04:45 AMI always take philosophy like this from musicians with a tablespoonful of salt because the "blurb" is indeed very subjectively written and nobody knows Bach's intentions. And last but not least, how are we to use these theories in the performance and when listening to the music. Nor do I know. Every suite displays it's own affect and sometimes it is even impossible to put suitable words on it. The task for the performer must be to display what he thinks the affect is. But even here is subjectivity everywhere.


Well, what they are saying is that Mattheson etc wrote about the affect conventionally associated with keys. The key of a baroque piece functioned like an expression marking in later scores. 

It's interesting because Cera's essay suggests that there was consistency among 17th century musical theorists. He talks of Kircher, Charpentier and Mattheson together, as if they are singing from the same hymn-sheet about this.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 30, 2023, 10:41:50 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 30, 2023, 10:12:02 AMIs Richard Lester close to the transitional school style?


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/710akHbBprL._SX522_.jpg)



No, I don't think so. He's an academic at the cutting edge of this stuff, at least in Italian baroque keyboard music.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 30, 2023, 10:56:33 AM
I never thought that the "Affectlehre" could be applied strictly to Bach. If you look at his compositions in b-minor eg. you will find many different affects "portrayed". Take the WTC book I with the consoling prelude and the fugue with the heart-breaking chromatic writing. Or book II with the dramatic prelude and the light playful fugue. And how to explain that the French Ouverture from CÛ II originated in a c-minor composition which was transposed to b-minor. Which affect does has this piece display? The b-minor organ prelude (BWV 544) is extremely dramatic with an air of Good Friday, but its fugue is very balanced and harmonic even in the last and more compact part.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 30, 2023, 11:05:00 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 30, 2023, 10:12:02 AMIs Richard Lester close to the transitional school style?


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/710akHbBprL._SX522_.jpg)



He is a scholar and his background is another one than the background of representatives of the transitional school style. He has recorded a lot of Italian baroque music in a rather informed style.

On the other hand I don't appreciate his Bach that much. It bores me.  It hasn't got the rhetoric flexibility I associate with the HIP movement.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on May 30, 2023, 11:30:11 AM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2023, 10:56:33 AMI never thought that the "Affectlehre" could be applied strictly to Bach. If you look at his compositions in b-minor eg. you will find many different affects "portrayed". Take the WTC book I with the consoling prelude and the fugue with the heart-breaking chromatic writing. Or book II with the dramatic prelude and the light playful fugue. And how to explain that the French Ouverture from CÛ II originated in a c-minor composition which was transposed to b-minor. Which affect does has this piece display? The b-minor organ prelude (BWV 544) is extremely dramatic with an air of Good Friday, but its fugue is very balanced and harmonic even in the last and more compact part.

Well I'd have to know more about the affects associated with c minor and d minor to answer that!  I thought the application in the violin sonatas sounded good (Agsteribbe and Neve), and indeed I like Cera's French  Suites (especially when he's being moody in the early suites - something original there) and Egarr"s English Suites.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 31, 2023, 03:51:24 AM
Interesting about single, particular emotions. In contrast, blues- African American folk/modern music- tend to convey ambivalent emotions and states. Blues is joyous AND sorrowful, elegant and vulgar, sacred and profane at the same time. Probably these ambivalent states are just effect, rather than intended goal, of the music. It seems to me, Tango and Flamenco are similar. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 31, 2023, 04:52:21 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 30, 2023, 11:30:11 AMWell I'd have to know more about the affects associated with c minor and d minor to answer that!  I thought the application in the violin sonatas sounded good (Agsteribbe and Neve), and indeed I like Cera's French  Suites (especially when he's being moody in the early suites - something original there) and Egarr"s English Suites.

It seems as if the idea of the affects of the different keys has changed with time and even in the baroque age different composers had different ideas as to this. And the key isn't the only thing to determine the affect of a piece of music. Others are eg. tuning, tempo, rhythm, character of figurations and instrumentation. But also the affect different people associate with different keys is entirely subjective and most often it is difficult to put it into words. As to Bach's compositions I do not find a standard affect of the different keys. And with the many examples of transpositions made by himself he seems to contradict any standard no matter what Mattheson means about the subject. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on May 31, 2023, 04:57:53 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 31, 2023, 03:51:24 AMInteresting about single, particular emotions.

It was a typical baroque way of thinking. And regardless of what we think determines the affect of a piece of music, we have to state that different movements in a piece of music can describe different affects, but within the individual movements, the affect is usually the same throughout.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: vers la flamme on June 01, 2023, 02:20:15 PM
Thoughts on Wolfgang Rübsam's recent recordings of the French Suites, English Suites and Partitas on the lautenwerck for Brilliant? I like his Goldberg Variations on Naxos very much, though my appreciation for that recording was a long time coming; my revisitations of it, followed by an initial negative reaction, were encouraged by comments by Mandryka and a few others here who were extremely enthusiastic about it at the time. But I've heard very little about these more recent Brilliant recordings.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on June 01, 2023, 06:28:49 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 01, 2023, 02:20:15 PMThoughts on Wolfgang Rübsam's recent recordings of the French Suites, English Suites and Partitas on the lautenwerck for Brilliant? I like his Goldberg Variations on Naxos very much, though my appreciation for that recording was a long time coming; my revisitations of it, followed by an initial negative reaction, were encouraged by comments by Mandryka and a few others here who were extremely enthusiastic about it at the time. But I've heard very little about these more recent Brilliant recordings.

I think they're reissues of his previous lute harpsichord recordings. Are you sure there are English Suites?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: vers la flamme on June 01, 2023, 07:15:30 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 01, 2023, 06:28:49 PMI think they're reissues of his previous lute harpsichord recordings. Are you sure there are English Suites?

Ah, it was the Toccatas that I saw, not the English Suites. I seem to recall that he had self-released some lute harpsichord recordings that were available on his website, is this what these are?
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on June 01, 2023, 11:23:05 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 01, 2023, 07:15:30 PMAh, it was the Toccatas that I saw, not the English Suites. I seem to recall that he had self-released some lute harpsichord recordings that were available on his website, is this what these are?

I think so.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Atriod on June 30, 2023, 09:49:28 AM
Does anyone know what instrument Igor Kipnis is using here? Thanks

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on June 30, 2023, 10:09:31 AM
Quote from: Atriod on June 30, 2023, 09:49:28 AMDoes anyone know what instrument Igor Kipnis is using here? Thanks



Yes. It is by Rutkowski & Robinette,  based on (in some general way) the designs of Hieronymus Albrecht Hass. 
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Anooj on June 30, 2023, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 01, 2023, 02:20:15 PMThoughts on Wolfgang Rübsam's recent recordings of the French Suites, English Suites and Partitas on the lautenwerck for Brilliant? I like his Goldberg Variations on Naxos very much, though my appreciation for that recording was a long time coming; my revisitations of it, followed by an initial negative reaction, were encouraged by comments by Mandryka and a few others here who were extremely enthusiastic about it at the time. But I've heard very little about these more recent Brilliant recordings.

I have the French Suites CD, and it's brilliant and highly recommendable. Been thinking about getting those others as well, though I kind of find the ornamentation in the Partitas to sound messy and jumbled (based on sampling the recordings on YT).
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Atriod on July 01, 2023, 07:56:05 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 30, 2023, 10:09:31 AMYes. It is by Rutkowski & Robinette,  based on (in some general way) the designs of Hieronymus Albrecht Hass. 

Thoughts on how it sounds? I loved the interpretation.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 01, 2023, 08:02:11 AM
Yesterday, I left the post below in a 'dormant WTC' thread w/ no responses, so reposting here - listening to Bk. 2 today and really enjoying the instrument and Rubsam's approach - anyone heard this recent recording?  Dave :)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2023, 11:33:06 AMTTT After 3 Years! 

Well, I already own 6 versions of the WTC (3 on piano; 3 on harpsichord) (see attachment) but saw the one below at a Presto Music sale (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9464921--j-s-bach-das-wohltemperierte-clavier) for $13 USD (5 CDs) w/ Wolfgang Rubsam on a lute harpsichord made by Keith Hill - the recordings were done by Rubsam and stated to be from 2016-2017 according to the booklet.  Currently listening to BK. 1 and enjoying - some comments attached for those interested - after BK. 2 tomorrow, may have to cull one out; already have too many for my needs -  ;D  Dave

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71kATawA9JL._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://crosseyedpianist.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/4205e2_758c8115c3f34f1c80528b14268aab01mv2_d_3562_2490_s_4_2.jpg?w=640)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: aukhawk on July 02, 2023, 09:53:34 AM
I think Rubsam's WTC1 works well and is enjoyable to listen to.  The instrument has a lovely tone.  His same approach in Book 2 threatens to descend into chaos as the music is, in general, more densely-scored and for my ears there is sometimes just too much going on.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: San Antone on July 02, 2023, 01:43:42 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 01, 2023, 08:02:11 AMYesterday, I left the post below in a 'dormant WTC' tread w/ no responses, so reposting here - listening to Bk. 2 today and really enjoying the instrument and Rubsam's approach - anyone heard this recent recording?  Dave :)


I became acquainted with Rübsam's entire collection of the lautenwerk recordings when they first began coming out, and purchased them from his website a couple of years ago.  Initially I was very excited with his playing, but over time, his eccentricities began to compromise my enjoyment of the music. 

I do not regret buying them, and listen to them now in small doses. I am able to enjoy them in that manner.

Keith HIll, the builder of Rübsam's instruments, since moved his workshop from Michigan to the Nashville area.  I contacted him about availability of an instrument, and he sent an email reply same day.  But his instruments are way too expensive for my interest and budget.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Atriod on July 04, 2023, 07:11:08 AM
Anyone have thoughts on this? I liked his interpretation of the GV.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71OAFGPBPrL._SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on July 05, 2023, 05:30:08 AM
Quote from: Atriod on July 04, 2023, 07:11:08 AMAnyone have thoughts on this? I liked his interpretation of the GV.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71OAFGPBPrL._SL1500_.jpg)

I'm listening now for the first time. I don't know the music well enough to be any help really, except to say that it sounds fine to me. My main reason for posting was just to let you have the booklet if you haven't already seen it.

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/18/000156681.pdf
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Atriod on July 13, 2023, 11:54:17 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 05, 2023, 05:30:08 AMI'm listening now for the first time. I don't know the music well enough to be any help really, except to say that it sounds fine to me. My main reason for posting was just to let you have the booklet if you haven't already seen it.

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/18/000156681.pdf

Thanks, I ended up buying the CD last week. I enjoyed Świątkiewicz's interpretation of the music and didn't find the textures light because he chooses some grander sounding harpsichords. There is a nice lightness and spontaneity to these performances. Contrast the D minor Concerto against another recent recording that Harpsichord Jesus (Jean Rondeau) made and his is more driving with a pulsating rhythm and steely determination like his inception is carved in concrete. Whereas Świątkiewicz lets the music go. These are rather completely different interpretations. I would not want to be without either even if both won't be displacing my favorite performances.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 26, 2023, 04:56:12 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/710t3jTrJOL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
I recommend this from time to time because it gives me so much pleasure. This instrument is much different than the one Rubsam plays; it's stickier-sounding and generates more lasting overtones/harmonics, if these are the right terms to describe the effect I want to describe. Paul's playing is much different than Rubsam's. It might be best to compare him to some other Bach interpreters, but I'm not sure to whom. His playing is homely and rustic. I find it perfect for the afternoon.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: San Antone on September 26, 2023, 05:20:31 PM
Quote from: milk on September 26, 2023, 04:56:12 PM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/710t3jTrJOL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
I recommend this from time to time because it gives me so much pleasure. This instrument is much different than the one Rubsam plays; it's stickier-sounding and generates more lasting overtones/harmonics, if these are the right terms to describe the effect I want to describe. Paul's playing is much different than Rubsam's. It might be best to compare him to some other Bach interpreters, but I'm not sure to whom. His playing is homely and rustic. I find it perfect for the afternoon.

Have you heard this one?

(https://i.postimg.cc/tRzry0JY/Screenshot-2023-09-26-at-8-19-27-PM.png)

Pretty nice.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: milk on September 26, 2023, 08:41:04 PM
Quote from: San Antone on September 26, 2023, 05:20:31 PMHave you heard this one?

(https://i.postimg.cc/tRzry0JY/Screenshot-2023-09-26-at-8-19-27-PM.png)

Pretty nice.
Yes. I like it all. I would say his playing by is gentle and maybe a bit sleepy (at worst). But he's not polarizing or extreme or academic. I like how clear the counterpoint is - the lines. It's too bad that he didn't quite finish the set. There's something missing. Maybe it's Art of the Fugue. I have to check what he didn't finish. It looks like he lost funding right near the end.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on October 23, 2023, 07:46:05 PM
(https://www.artistcamp.com/store/lydia-maria-blank/bach-die-kunst-der-fuge/9008798375042/cover.jpg)
https://www.artistcamp.com/lydia-maria-blank/bach-die-kunst-der-fuge/9008798375042/index.html#
A very beautiful, elaborately ornameted yet sober and noble Art of Fugue from Lydia Maria Blank. Played on what sounds like an Italian harpsichord, the lean and spare sound fits the playing style well. Actually the word that comes to mind is iki, as Toyohiko Satoh means it.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on October 24, 2023, 05:18:04 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on October 23, 2023, 07:46:05 PM(https://www.artistcamp.com/store/lydia-maria-blank/bach-die-kunst-der-fuge/9008798375042/cover.jpg)
https://www.artistcamp.com/lydia-maria-blank/bach-die-kunst-der-fuge/9008798375042/index.html#
A very beautiful, elaborately ornameted yet sober and noble Art of Fugue from Lydia Maria Blank. Played on what sounds like an Italian harpsichord, the lean and spare sound fits the playing style well. Actually the word that comes to mind is iki, as Toyohiko Satoh means it.

I've been playing her Byrd this week -- very slow pavans!  I need to give the AoF some more attention.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on October 24, 2023, 11:35:47 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on October 23, 2023, 07:46:05 PMA very beautiful, elaborately ornameted yet sober and noble Art of Fugue from Lydia Maria Blank. Played on what sounds like an Italian harpsichord, the lean and spare sound fits the playing style well.

Yes, the Italian baroque style harpsichord (one manual, two stops 8' and 8') which she uses for all her recordings. I appreciate the lack of a 4' stop. She hasn't published the tunings she uses, but this is presumably meantone for the Byrd and the Italian and Spanish music, but not - I think - for the AoF, where the tuning sounds a tad more "modern". She plays the version for two harpsichords of the three part mirror fugue and no assistent is mentioned, so I suppose she used playback here and probably also for the four part mirror fugue. All in all I find her version marked by simplicity and beauty - and a tangible degree of poetry.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: CelluloidBiker on November 22, 2023, 01:38:59 PM
Has anyone heard András Schiff's JS Bach: Clavichord on ECM?

https://ecmrecords.com/product/j-s-bach-clavichord-andras-schiff/ (https://ecmrecords.com/product/j-s-bach-clavichord-andras-schiff/)

It came out in January of this year, but I only just found out about it today. I generally prefer Bach on period instruments, and I love the oft-neglected clavichord (Ralph Kirkpatrick's WTC II on clavichord is my all-time favorite version), so I was stoked to find out about this release. I also admire Schiff a lot, especially his recent WTC piano performances on ECM and live at the BBC Proms.

I'm currently streaming it on Spotify, about halfway through disc one and really enjoying it. The instrument used (a replica of a 1743 Specken clavichord) has the shimmering, lute-like quality I love about the clavichord, and the recording is immaculate as one would expect from ECM. The Inventions and Sinfonias are a  perfect fit for the quiet, intimate nature of the clavichord, intended as they were for private individual study. Schiff's performances so far seem thoughtful and gracefully unadorned.

Any thoughts from those who have heard it?

Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: Mandryka on November 23, 2023, 06:47:54 AM
Quote from: CelluloidBiker on November 22, 2023, 01:38:59 PMHas anyone heard András Schiff's JS Bach: Clavichord on ECM?

https://ecmrecords.com/product/j-s-bach-clavichord-andras-schiff/ (https://ecmrecords.com/product/j-s-bach-clavichord-andras-schiff/)

It came out in January of this year, but I only just found out about it today. I generally prefer Bach on period instruments, and I love the oft-neglected clavichord (Ralph Kirkpatrick's WTC II on clavichord is my all-time favorite version), so I was stoked to find out about this release. I also admire Schiff a lot, especially his recent WTC piano performances on ECM and live at the BBC Proms.

I'm currently streaming it on Spotify, about halfway through disc one and really enjoying it. The instrument used (a replica of a 1743 Specken clavichord) has the shimmering, lute-like quality I love about the clavichord, and the recording is immaculate as one would expect from ECM. The Inventions and Sinfonias are a  perfect fit for the quiet, intimate nature of the clavichord, intended as they were for private individual study. Schiff's performances so far seem thoughtful and gracefully unadorned.

Any thoughts from those who have heard it?



Hello biker. Good to find another clavichord lover!

I've only listened to Schiff's inventions. He plays the clavichord with the same touch as a conservatory trained pianist plays a piano, the same liaison between notes, and with long phrasing too - like in 19th century piano music. To see what I mean, have a listen to Jaroslav Tuma's recording of the music on clavichord - the recording's on YouTube. You may prefer Schiff to Tuma, of course - my point was purporting to be fact not value.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: atardecer on November 23, 2023, 05:15:01 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 23, 2023, 06:47:54 AMHello biker. Good to find another clavichord lover!

I've only listened to Schiff's inventions. He plays the clavichord with the same touch as a conservatory trained pianist plays a piano, the same liaison between notes, and with long phrasing too - like in 19th century piano music. To see what I mean, have a listen to Jaroslav Tuma's recording of the music on clavichord - the recording's on YouTube. You may prefer Schiff to Tuma, of course - my point was purporting to be fact not value.

Perhaps you are right that Schiff is closer to a conservatory approach and how 19th century piano music is often performed today, (which if one listens to older recordings is quite different than how 19th century piano music was generally played back then). I suspect that if we heard recordings of 18th century music it may also be very different from what we hear today for example among HIP performers. What tends to happen is people just imagine how they think music may have been played at a certain time and do it in that way. What also happens is performers in an era tend to influence each other substantially so we get a lot of performers from the same epoch with similar approaches.

I listened to Schiff's Ricercar a 3 from BWV 1079 on clavichord on youtube, and I think it sounds not bad. But I think his style works better on piano, (I quite like Schiff's Bach on piano).

I'm listening to Jaroslav Tůma's Bach on clavichord right now, and personally I prefer the sound of this clavichord Bach to Schiff's.
Title: Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
Post by: premont on November 25, 2023, 01:34:41 PM
Quote from: CelluloidBiker on November 22, 2023, 01:38:59 PMAny thoughts from those who have heard it [Schiff's clavichord twofer]?

I don't think his articulation is as bad as Mandryka writes. In a number of pieces there is at least attempts at a more pointed articulation. His tempi however are relatively steady (whether fast or slow) and there is very little agogic  expressive rubato. He plays like a skilled student but not as a mature master.