Camille Saint-Saëns (1835-1921) was a remarkable composer. Among his credits:
1. Saint-Saens has been described as the "French Mendelssohn"
2. Franz Liszt regarded Saint-Saens as the greatest organist in the world.
3. Saint-Saens was an acclaimed virtuoso pianist.
4. Highly precocious, Saint-Saens composed his first piece at age 3.
5. At the beginning of the twentieth century, he was regarded in the US and UK as France's greatest living composer.
6. Saint-Saens wrote outstanding music in virtually every genre, including:
-sonatas for violin & piano and cello & piano
-chamber - trios for piano
-chamber - other (incl quartets, quintets, septets)
-vocal and choral (including a Mass and a Requiem)
-concerti (5 for piano, 3 for violin, and 2 for cello)
-symphonies (3 in all, including his "Organ Symphony")
-symphonic poems
-operas (13 in all, including "Samson et Dalila")
-misc ("Danse Macabre", " Le Rouet d'Omphale" and "Carnival of the Animals")
(http://clanfaw.free.fr/saint_saens_ico_a.jpg)
Saint-Saëns was a brilliant orchestrator and pianist, and he wrote many masterpieces that are standards in the repertoire, including his piano concerti numbers 2, 4, and 5; his "Organ Symphony," his "Danse Macabre," his "Messe de Requiem", his piano trios, and other stuff.
Marvelous, delightful stuff. 8)
From Hector
*** Saint-Saëns, apparently, performed all of the Beethoven piano sonatas in one session and from memory and pre-teen.
He was the first French composer to write a piano concerto.
He was advised not to publish 'Carnival of the Animals' because it would destroy his reputation as a serious composer!
I think that he has greater depth than he is usually given credit for because there is a general lightness of touch and easy melodic facility. I think that he was an optimist and few of his works end on a tragic note. Even 'Samson and Delilah' has a spritely ending, rightly so, as Samson gains his revenge!
All but a couple of his operas were failures.
Personally, I find a lot to like in his music. He who is not swayed by the slow movement of the 1st 'cello concerto must have a heart of stone!
I think that he probably queered his status by living too long. His music was considered dated and conservative by the time of his death and he had become very conservative in his views. At the outset of his composing career he was seen as avant-garde (yes, I know, does the same fate await Boulez, I wonder?).
Recommendations are easy: the concertante works, tone poems, symphonies, etc
From npwilkinson
Translated from a French web site:
Berlioz would say of him : "He is a staggering master pianist... and one of the greatest musicians of our time." Liszt, Wagner, Berlioz and Bizet were among his admirers. He would have Fauré, Messager and Gigout as pupils, receive many distinctions and be elected to the Academy. He was prodigiously knowledgeable: "Saint-Saëns is the man who knows best the music of the whole world," wrote Debussy, who was nevertheless not fond of the composer.
Apparently the first Paris performance of the Carnaval was put on for Liszt at Pauline Viardot's home.
Rummaging on the web, I also learned that Madame Saint Saëns died in 1950 (!). And, continuing to rummage...
[Translated from French: read it with a Hercules Poirot accent] 'Is writing, a model of elegance and limpidity, 'is impeccable technique beneath the apparent facility and 'is extreme simplicity of means will always be appreciated by those who refuse to swoon before chaotic, uncontrolled lyricism or to excuse the worst compositional errors in the name of the sacred rights of passion.
[Translated from Italian:] Proust respected the musician's technical prowess but when Stravinsky declared that Saint Saëns' Symphony in C Major was a masterpiece superior to all of César Franck he was bemused.
[Translated from American:] In some ways he was a solitary, even secretive individual, prone to "disappearing" for weeks. At the same time, he was a remarkable host who entertained lavishly at his Paris home, where his performances in drag (particularly his impersonation of Marguerite, the female soprano lead in Charles Gounod's opera Faust) were well-known among his circle.
Camille Saint-Saens was not without his critics. "If he'd been making shell-cases during the war," Maurice Ravel once remarked, "it might have been better for music."
Quote from: D Minor on April 12, 2007, 05:15:54 AM
[Translated from American:]
Nom d'un nom d'un nom! :D
Quote from: D Minor on April 12, 2007, 05:15:54 AM
Camille Saint-Saens was not without his critics. "If he'd been making shell-cases during the war," Maurice Ravel once remarked, "it might have been better for music."
This seems it might take a customary grain of salt. It is a historical commonplace that the older compositional generation has difficulty taking to the directions some younger composers want to go in; and the younger composers, who are already working somewhat in the dark as they find their own way, their own voice, necessarily find it a nuisance at best when the older composers are eager to draw a heavy curtain across their windows . . . .
Quote from: D Minor on April 12, 2007, 05:11:55 AM
Camille Saint-Saëns (1835-1921) was a remarkable composer. Among his credits:
1. Saint-Saens has been described as the "French Mendelssohn"
This is a good thing, right? After all, I once knew the Georgian Mendelssohn....
Quote from: lukeottevanger on April 12, 2007, 05:45:35 AM
This is a good thing, right? After all, I once knew the Georgian Mendelssohn....
In the Third Reich they said "that Jew Mendelssohn"
Wasn't everybody who wrote music after Mendelssohn, but not before, considered Mendelssohnian?
S-S wrote Suite Algerienne because he often visited the country and not for his health, if you get my drift.
The orchestral suite was popular in France at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries because, it has been suggested, the French were scared of the symphony!
Think of them: Milhaud, Ravel, Debussy, Massenet...al wrote orchestral suites!
Michel's enthusiastic embrace of Saint-Saëns First Piano Concerto (I don't know it nearly as well as the beloved Second Piano Concerto):
What great stuff Saint-Saen's Piano Concerto No.1 in D Major is!
I am certain it is under-rated. To me, it sounds like a mixture of Tchaikovskian orchestral melodies, and Beethovian rhythm, structure and dynamics (one thinks of his 2nd and 3rd). The oscillation between moments of solo or moderately accompanied virtuosity and the orchestra, with abundant clarity and precision, remind me structurally of Beethoven's 3rd. In short, there is what there is in all Beethoven's piano concertos: a magnificent balance between piano and orchestra.
It also seems ludicrous to suggest, as some critics have, that Saint-Saens lacked profundity and so on. Not only, of course, is it completely idiotic to suggest that good music must have profundity, but I think it is completely false if one looks at the 2nd movement of the 1st Piano Concerto with its slow, tired negativity that echoes Beethoven - this time the 2nd movement of the 7th Sonata. Certainly, I think this slow movement is less brilliant than Beethoven's majestic subtly - some may even call it insincere - but the emotional depth is, I think, still there loud and clear.
Even taken as a whole, this D Major concerto somewhat mirrors Beethoven's 3rd (and arguably the 5th) as it has a very dominant theme in the first movement, outward looking and at times celebratory, followed by a far more insular and intimate second movement, ended by a real memorable and indulgent blast. I am sure I once read that Saint-Saens is sometimes compared to Beethoven, and this early PC certainly illustrates that argument well.
One other observation is the use of staccato in places in the final movement that I haven't previously noticed (repeated also in his PC2 first movement rather significantly). Saint-Saens injects a Prokofieven jovialness into this movement, but is then peculiarly - though interestingly - contrasted by an almost hideously dreamy and repetitive piano melody reminiscent of a later Rachmaninov (like the ghastly Rach 3!). But what this does show, I think, is that Saint-Saens was a marvellously talented composer; echoing the past whilst predating that which followed, and writing music of subtlely, depth and sophistication that as a compliment is so ofen denied. This first piano concerto, whatever is weaknesses, is a piece of music underappreciated by, it seems, a really great number of classical music "fans".
What do you think of this Piano Concerto, or his other piano concertos, or his other work in general?
Quote from: Hector on April 12, 2007, 07:06:04 AM
Wasn't everybody who wrote music after Mendelssohn, but not before, considered Mendelssohnian?
That was, until everyone became Elgarian ;D
If I made you hear a certain cello sonata in B minor,
probably you'll say that you didn´t know that Mendelssohn
sonata. And the reason why is because it was written by
Borodin.
I don't know exactly why, I don't need to listen to St-Saëns very often.
This Introduction & Rondo capriccioso is a great work.
Don't know how to explain why I don't listen to it more often, I feel like it's almost too perfect. :-\
One of the greatest concerto composer ever, anyway.
I'm enjoying his first cello concerto, inspired by Beethoven's VC
Live performance here by the BSO sold me on the Organ Symphony; and now I regularly go back to the Paray/Detroit reissue on Mercury Living Presence.
Quote from: D Minor on April 12, 2007, 05:11:55 AM
Camille Saint-Saëns (1835-1921) was a remarkable composer.
BTW,
mon vieux, thank you for getting the diacritical mark there in the inaugural post! :D
I'm itching to get this new hybrid superaudio CD (hybrid SACD); it's back-ordered @ Archiv but available @ Amazon.com.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/97/972467.jpg)
In addition to the Organ Symphony, it includes:
Concerto for Organ, Strings and Timpani in G minor by Francis Poulenc
Performer: Olivier Latry (Organ)
Conductor: Christoph Eschenbach
Orchestra/Ensemble: Philadelphia Orchestra
Date of Recording: 05/2006
Venue: Verizon Hall, Kimmel Ctr., Philadelphia
Toccata festiva for Organ and Orchestra, Op. 36 by Samuel Barber
Performer: Olivier Latry (Organ)
Conductor: Christoph Eschenbach
Orchestra/Ensemble: Philadelphia Orchestra
Date of Recording: 05/2006
Venue: Verizon Hall, Kimmel Ctr., Philadelphia
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51118PwjC2L._SS500_.jpg)
I came at the composer through Charles Munch's outstanding recording of the Organ Symphony, and then branched out into the piano concerti. What marvelous works these are! I have to confess that my initial expectations weren't too high, but these are indeed excellent works, as Michel pointed out long ago.
I recently picked up this set (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=118742) to fill in some of the blanks:
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/94/947246.jpg)
Very much glad I did!
So did he like little boys or not? Serious question.
Quote from: oyasumi on April 23, 2007, 04:26:12 PM
So did he like little boys or not? Serious question.
It lacks relevance to his music.
8)
Someone should revoke the sunglasses smiley from your post. Nothing cool about a useless reply.
"This board is for discussing the life and works of particular composers."
My question pertains to his life. I don't want to start a seperate pedo topic just for this, but the veracity of it has been bothering me.
Quote from: oyasumi on April 23, 2007, 04:55:43 PM
Someone should revoke the sunglasses smiley from your post. Nothing cool about a useless reply.
"This board is for discussing the life and works of particular composers."
My question pertains to his life. I don't want to start a seperate pedo topic just for this, but the veracity of it has been bothering me.
I that case, yes, he did. Now we can branch right out and explore the seamy side. ::)
8)
Quote from: oyasumi on April 23, 2007, 04:26:12 PM
So did he like little boys or not? Serious question.
Well, he was married for several years, and he and his wife had two children. But rumors (unsubstantiated) that he was gay / pedophilic have occasionally surfaced.
Without an admission or conviction, such an allegation would be difficult to prove . . . . . .
Quote from: D Minor on April 23, 2007, 05:09:32 PM
"Yes, he did" what?
Travel in Africa and commune with the natives.
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2007, 05:10:44 PM
Travel in Africa and commune with the natives.
8)
Yeah, I've heard that Saint-Saens had a thing for Algerian men . . . . . . ::) ("When in Algeria . . . . ." ::))
But on the topic of Saint-Saens MUSIC, you can see Nelson Freire perform the Second Piano Concerto on YOUTUBE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yiqzv7hD0J4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yiqzv7hD0J4)
(video is in 4 parts)
Quote from: D Minor on April 23, 2007, 05:13:08 PM
Yeah, I've heard that Saint-Saens had a thing for Algerian men . . . . . . ::) ("When in Algeria . . . . ." ::))
But on the topic of Saint-Saens MUSIC, you can see Nelson Freire perform the Second Piano Concerto on YOUTUBE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yiqzv7hD0J4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yiqzv7hD0J4)
(video is in 4 parts)
Quite agree. Not my choice either.
My choice IS his chamber music. In addition to the piano trios you mentioned, he also wrote a couple of very nice string quartets, it took me a long time to find recordings of them but worth the effort. I ended up with the Margand Quartet on Cybelia. The first one, Op 112, is dedicated to Ysaye, the second, Op 153 to Jacques Durand. They are really lovely, minor key works that are worth searching out (for all I know, Naxos may have put them out since I quit hunting them 2 years ago.)
Also his 2 violin sonatas. The first one, in d, is rather famous for its whirlwind, virtuosic finale. The second one is a much more traditional, lovely work. As Camille himself said, the second is far superior musically, but the public will no doubt prefer the first. Both of them are excellent.
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2007, 05:28:57 PM
Also his 2 violin sonatas. The first one, in d, is rather famous for its whirlwind, virtuosic finale. The second one is a much more traditional, lovely work. As Camille himself said, the second is far superior musically, but the public will no doubt prefer the first. Both of them are excellent.
Something . . . . . . . something ineffable . . . . . . draws me to the 1st violin sonata . . . . . .
I think his cello sonatas are fascinating, and sorry for being an oboist, BUT EVERYONE MUST TRY HIS OBOE SONATA!!!! It is just so naively beautiful, everytime i play it.
Howard
And may I add for the completeness the wonderful set of Symphonies he wrote.
To this day still high on my list.
Tis Martinon on EMI, good recordings and fine interpretations.
Quote from: hautbois on April 24, 2007, 09:48:26 AM
I think his cello sonatas are fascinating, and sorry for being an oboist, BUT EVERYONE MUST TRY HIS OBOE SONATA!!!! It is just so naively beautiful, everytime i play it.
Howard
I've never heard the OBOE SONATA . . . . . . Thanks for the tip! . . . . . . 8)
Stephen Hough performing Saint-Saens Piano Concerto no. 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOvAJe_blWw)
Isn't the 2nd violon sonate the model for the sonata discused at length in Proust's In search of Time Lost (or whatever it's called in English)
I like Saint-Saëns very much but I have only 5 CDs of his music. He is one of those composers whose works are inconsistently recorded.
Saint-Saëns and Fauré are my favorite French composers of romantic era.
Quote from: D Minor on April 23, 2007, 05:08:31 PM
Well, he was married for several years, and he and his wife had two children. But rumors (unsubstantiated) that he was gay / pedophilic have occasionally surfaced.
Without an admission or conviction, such an allegation would be difficult to prove . . . . . .
"unsubstantiated" LOL :D What about the well-known pederast quote directly from his mouth? This has been mentioned in biographies for aeons...
Quote from: Lethe on July 07, 2007, 01:48:26 PM
"unsubstantiated" LOL :D What about the well-known pederast quote directly from his mouth?
Well, if it came "directly from his mouth," then that would be an "admission" by Saint-Saens ....... Which would, generally, put an end to the speculation (unless it were stated in jest, under intoxication, under duress, etc.).
Quote from: Lethe on July 07, 2007, 01:48:26 PM
This has been mentioned in biographies for aeons...
I wasn't aware that folks have been writing Saint-Saëns biographies for aeons ........ ::)
Quote from: D Minor on July 07, 2007, 05:07:41 PM
I wasn't aware that folks have been writing Saint-Saëns biographies for aeons ........ ::)
Something had to have created the big bang, Saint-Saëns is as good a guess as any...
Quote from: Lethe on July 07, 2007, 06:04:26 PM
Something had to have created the big bang, Saint-Saëns is as good a guess as any...
Actually, I thought it was established that Wagner created the big bang ..........
Saint-Saëns is a composer I used to hate, and now like quite a lot! But I'm checking over some of these "facts" that start this thread off, and came across:
"He was the first French composer to write a piano concerto."
This is just a false statement, and I'm not sure why anyone would even say such a thing. First, look when he lived, and it's probably a safe assumption - even without knowing - that some French composer would have composed a piano concerto before he did. And indeed, this ends up being true. I don't know if I'm the only person here familiar with Boïeldieu's Piano Concerto, but it certainly exists, making this claim about Saint-Saëns incorrect. But why even say such things without having found out for sure, when the "odds" almost overwhelmingly indicate that it cannot be true in the first place? Mainly because of Saint-Saëns' later years, and piano concerti (specifically) were being written since at least the 1770s. A weird side note: Saint-Saëns was born exactly a year and a day after Boïeldieu died.
And he wrote five symphonies, at least, right? Don't know if that's already been pointed out or not.
I think I really started to love his music by way of the Piano Concerto #5, which I heard on the radio a long time ago. It just stuck with me for years, even though I found the late Romantic sound harsh and discomforting at the time. I didn't come back to it for years, but never quite forgot it. When I listened again, I'd managed to ease into the mid to late 19th century slowly up the timeline of composers, gradually acclimating to the newer style, and loved the work. I also loved the finale of the Piano Concerto #1, it's so much fun. Especially this one part where the first theme, which switches between the piano and orchestra, goes along several times... until at one point, the piano "forgets" to do it right and the orchestra hesitates then quickly jumps in and plays that part. Makes me laugh out loud sometimes. Maybe I'm not explaining it well, but maybe somebody could more properly identify what I'm talking about.
Anybody mention that Trumpet Septet thing? Really neat and fun, at least to me.
He was without doubt, the first to write music
for a film (1908).
That is very possible, but every source I've ever seen that mentions this is very careful to point out there there is doubt.
Quote from: JoshLilly on July 11, 2007, 07:36:54 AM
Saint-Saëns is a composer I used to hate, and now like quite a lot!
Testify, brother!
IMO Saint-Saëns' strenths are to be found in his chamber music: highly original and inventive, with a very keen eye for unusual combinations of instruments and blending their sounds. He was a real French composer in that last respect, though his music is structurely more insprired by the Austro-German repertoire. A very interesting combination.
Some favourites.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2272814.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2173133.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/9936629)
Q
Quote from: D Minor on April 24, 2007, 11:54:12 AM
I've never heard the OBOE SONATA . . . . . . Thanks for the tip! . . . . . . 8)
While you order that... some guy called A.Rubtsov recorded Introduction & Rondo-Capriccioso on oboe.
His Etudes are fantastic; all of them: sixths, thirds, rythm difficulties, sing-through chords, left hand alone, staccato. They are not only technically constructive, but also provide great fun for pianists-to-be.
Quote from: Manuel on July 11, 2007, 10:44:43 AM
While you order that... some guy called A.Rubtsov recorded Introduction & Rondo-Capriccioso on oboe.
I have never heard of that piece, but the oboist is well known for being the young oboist whom at his early 20s is already principal in the Russian National Orchestra. Which label did that recording come from?
Quote from: hautbois on July 18, 2007, 08:39:56 AM
I have never heard of that piece, but the oboist is well known for being the young oboist whom at his early 20s is already principal in the Russian National Orchestra. Which label did that recording come from?
An impressed friend sent me the file in mp3 format, through Msn Messenger, a while ago. I don't know where it came from.
This thread needs reviving.
3rd Violin Concerto is to die for. The perfectly gorgeous Allegro, the fragile beauty of the harmonic arpeggios colored by the clarinet at the end of the Andantino, the swoonworthy passion of the last movement, and the final joyous brass contrasted with the lyrical virtuosic violin lines. Oh my. Wow. Shame on me for not exploring Saint-Saëns more until now...
Who do you like in the violin concertos? I was listening to Perlman, very nice.
Edit: Wanted to add, the portrait at the beginning of this thread is so beautiful and lifelike, one of nicest composer portraits I have seen...who painted it?
Quote from: Greta on September 02, 2007, 07:59:55 PM
3rd Violin Concerto is to die for.
Now try his Second. ;)
Quote from: Greta on September 02, 2007, 07:59:55 PM
3rd Violin Concerto is to die for.
Please don't! ::)
Quote from: Greta on September 02, 2007, 07:59:55 PM
Who do you like in the violin concertos? I was listening to Perlman, very nice.
As I said before, I don't think you will find one better than Perlman/Barenboim for the third.
And I stick to Ricci for the second concerto.
Quote from: Mark on September 02, 2007, 09:17:21 PM
Now try his Second. ;)
Interesting, but not better than the third.
Quote from: Manuel on September 03, 2007, 02:59:28 AM
Interesting, but not better than the third.
I had in mind the slow movement specifically.
Quote from: Greta on September 02, 2007, 07:59:55 PM
This thread needs reviving.
3rd Violin Concerto is to die for. The perfectly gorgeous Allegro, the fragile beauty of the harmonic arpeggios colored by the clarinet at the end of the Andantino, the swoonworthy passion of the last movement, and the final joyous brass contrasted with the lyrical virtuosic violin lines. Oh my. Wow. Shame on me for not exploring Saint-Saëns more until now...
Who do you like in the violin concertos? I was listening to Perlman, very nice.
Edit: Wanted to add, the portrait at the beginning of this thread is so beautiful and lifelike, one of nicest composer portraits I have seen...who painted it?
Go,
Greta, go! :-)
I like any violinist in the
Saint-Saëns concerti as they are playing them (I just haven't heard any to dislike in these).
Quote from: Manuel on September 03, 2007, 02:59:28 AM
Interesting, but not better than the third.
Mark's comment does not imply any relative superiority, of course.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2007, 07:37:23 AM
Mark's comment does not imply any relative superiority, of course.
It's easy to read mine does.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2007, 07:55:12 AM
Testify, brother!
Wish I could say much more than I did before! Did I mention
Samson et Dalila? When I first started listening to this opera, with its almost monotonous opening minutes, I moved to skip ahead, but I couldn't. Now, I love how the opera starts, I find it oddly compelling, in the same way that I find myself unbreakably fascinated by the first movement of Brahms Op.25 Piano Quartet. The pieces are not at all similar for a myriad of reasons, but my emotional response is very similar: "I can't turn this off!" These are probably the only two pieces in all of music that hold such a completely mysterious hold on me, which is really bizarre considering I'm not so heavy into late 19th century music in general.
Sorry, my technical knowledge of music is extremely limited, so I'm stuck with feelings and impressions. Don't have anything meaningful to contribute.
A discussion of the master's third violin concerto can be found by clicking here ....... (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3669.msg88738.html#msg88738)
TTT, mes amis!
Ok, after having hearing a live performance of Saint-Saens' Piano Concerto No. 2, I would love to have some recommendations! Of the #2, or of all 5 PCs for that matter! :) Thank you kindly. 0:)
I've seen a few recommendations for Stephen Hough.
My first recommendation would be Pascal Rogé (on a midpriced Decca twofer) but Hough is also a worthy choice.
Good question, Ray! The set I've got is lovely, but would be an eccentric recommendation (not sure it's still available) . . . a mono reissue, performed by Jeanne-Marie Darré.
Hah! I had clean forgot that I have this EMI two-fer (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg290227.html#msg290227), as well . . . for when I need stereo in my life 8)
Excellent, thank you Wanderer and Karl! 0:)
I've been listening SSs SQs courtesy of the Miami SQ on Conifer. I'd been waiting a while to get to know these two (I'd actually been interested in this issue when it first came out in 1992. Saint-Saens, with the Faure?,...who couldn't go for that combo?!!), and I had dipped into them via the SilverTrustEditions, but now I sat back, and...
Whaaa???... well, honestly, these are some fairly anonymous SQs. I'm almost thinking Spohr here, updated slightly. There's nothing offensive, and unlike Franck, or Deb/Rav, or any other French SQ from the 20th century (@), these two are more in the old fashioned "classical music" mold of just straight up SQs.
My first reaction was that I'd like to hear another version. Though the Miami come fairly well recommended, I just sensed that there could be more sumptousness in these pieces. The notes say that Faure commented that SS was "not successful" in his SQ endeavor, and, I can't vouch for what he was talking about, but, yes, ultimately these two SQs might just leave a slight bit to be desired. On the other hand, in a spectacularly A+ rendition, these two might take on a totally different life. They certainly seem to be able to withstand a more vigourously Romantic approach, with silkier smoother sound, than they get here. Perhaps had the Cleveland Quartet...
I remember Gurn was thinking that these two might be "right up my alley." Mmmm, perhaps, but based now on full listenings, they have gone quite quickly into the wallpaper part of the collection. ::) :P ::) :-[ :-X :-\
As far as I know, they are the available versions:
Quatour Viotti/Erato
Miami Quartet/Conifer
Medici/Koch
Equinox SQ/??? (this one has gotten some good reviews)
and, I think that that's it. Does anyone have any compares?
I'll be honest. I'm listening to No.2 (1919) right now, and I'm having no problems with it. It's just nice, unobtrusive classical style SQ playing, in a very smooth, vanilla coating,... a touch on the sweet side, but not too much,... nothing really memorable, but very easy on the ears. Still, the Spohr comparison seems to stick for me.
The first SQ (1899) might be a bit more of its time (though still very old fashioned), but No.2 definitely is the laaast word on the 19th century, so out of place does it seem in 1919. Maybe Saint-Saens and Glazunov, then, are the last of the last?
I have enjoyed SS's late wind sonatas (and I'm familiar with the war horses), but I feel as though my interest in this composer has seen its last day. Here's to the old poofter, ha! Poor guy...ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz....zzzz....zzzz...
Quote from: snyprrr on October 03, 2009, 11:15:57 AM
I've been listening SSs SQs courtesy of the Miami SQ on Conifer. I'd been waiting a while to get to know these two (I'd actually been interested in this issue when it first came out in 1992. Saint-Saens, with the Faure?,...who couldn't go for that combo?!!), and I had dipped into them via the SilverTrustEditions, but now I sat back, and...
Whaaa???... well, honestly, these are some fairly anonymous SQs. I'm almost thinking Spohr here, updated slightly. There's nothing offensive, and unlike Franck, or Deb/Rav, or any other French SQ from the 20th century (@), these two are more in the old fashioned "classical music" mold of just straight up SQs.
My first reaction was that I'd like to hear another version. Though the Miami come fairly well recommended, I just sensed that there could be more sumptousness in these pieces. The notes say that Faure commented that SS was "not successful" in his SQ endeavor, and, I can't vouch for what he was talking about, but, yes, ultimately these two SQs might just leave a slight bit to be desired. On the other hand, in a spectacularly A+ rendition, these two might take on a totally different life. They certainly seem to be able to withstand a more vigourously Romantic approach, with silkier smoother sound, than they get here. Perhaps had the Cleveland Quartet...
I remember Gurn was thinking that these two might be "right up my alley." Mmmm, perhaps, but based now on full listenings, they have gone quite quickly into the wallpaper part of the collection. ::) :P ::) :-[ :-X :-\
As far as I know, they are the available versions:
Quatour Viotti/Erato
Miami Quartet/Conifer
Medici/Koch
Equinox SQ/??? (this one has gotten some good reviews)
and, I think that that's it. Does anyone have any compares?
I'll be honest. I'm listening to No.2 (1919) right now, and I'm having no problems with it. It's just nice, unobtrusive classical style SQ playing, in a very smooth, vanilla coating,... a touch on the sweet side, but not too much,... nothing really memorable, but very easy on the ears. Still, the Spohr comparison seems to stick for me.
The first SQ (1899) might be a bit more of its time (though still very old fashioned), but No.2 definitely is the laaast word on the 19th century, so out of place does it seem in 1919. Maybe Saint-Saens and Glazunov, then, are the last of the last?
I have enjoyed SS's late wind sonatas (and I'm familiar with the war horses), but I feel as though my interest in this composer has seen its last day. Here's to the old poofter, ha! Poor guy...ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz....zzzz....zzzz...
I still don't know how much I'm enjoying these SQs. No one has any opinion?
Quote from: snyprrr on October 07, 2009, 10:12:21 AM
I still don't know how much I'm enjoying these SQs.
Neither do we. But they haven't grabbed me either to the same degree as some of his other chamber works. There's a very fine Hyperion 2-CD with his Piano Quartet and Quintet and various other works, including the wind sonatas, which I find quite a bit more interesting.
Quote from: snyprrr on October 07, 2009, 10:12:21 AM
I still don't know how much I'm enjoying these SQs. No one has any opinion?
Revised stats for Snyprrr:
The Great and Well Loved Romantic Era String QuartetsLike - 9
Dislike - 974
0.9241% likes ;D
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 07, 2009, 11:20:03 AM
Revised stats for Snyprrr:
The Great and Well Loved Romantic Era String Quartets
Like - 9
Dislike - 974
0.9241% likes ;D
We should make gmg cards like baseball cards! ;D
Quote from: DavidW on October 07, 2009, 11:53:44 AM
We should make gmg cards like baseball cards! ;D
In this case, Snyprrr would be batting 9th spot. :D
ok, DavidW and Chambernut:
How do YOooU rate Saint-Saens SQs?
Do the themes bounce through your head after only the first listen? Do their rhythmic elan whisk you off your feet? Do they make good wallpaper?
Don't blame me just because music died for 75 years! :P
Quote from: snyprrr on October 09, 2009, 08:42:13 AM
ok, DavidW and Chambernut:
How do YOooU rate Saint-Saens SQs?
Do the themes bounce through your head after only the first listen? Do their rhythmic elan whisk you off your feet? Do they make good wallpaper?
Don't blame me just because music died for 75 years! :P
Actually Snyprrr, I've never heard Double S's string quartets yet. :-[ It's just fun to bug you.
Runs away
To parrot an opinion, I thought the SQs to be very nice, but less interesting than SS at his best (although I don't rate his chamber music quite as highly as some...).
If you own the opinion, Sara, it isn't parroting 0:)
Quote from: snyprrr on October 03, 2009, 11:15:57 AM
I've been listening SSs SQs courtesy of the Miami SQ on Conifer. I'd been waiting a while to get to know these two (I'd actually been interested in this issue when it first came out in 1992. Saint-Saens, with the Faure?,...who couldn't go for that combo?!!), and I had dipped into them via the SilverTrustEditions, but now I sat back, and...
Whaaa???... well, honestly, these are some fairly anonymous SQs. I'm almost thinking Spohr here, updated slightly. There's nothing offensive, and unlike Franck, or Deb/Rav, or any other French SQ from the 20th century (@), these two are more in the old fashioned "classical music" mold of just straight up SQs.
My first reaction was that I'd like to hear another version. Though the Miami come fairly well recommended, I just sensed that there could be more sumptousness in these pieces. The notes say that Faure commented that SS was "not successful" in his SQ endeavor, and, I can't vouch for what he was talking about, but, yes, ultimately these two SQs might just leave a slight bit to be desired. On the other hand, in a spectacularly A+ rendition, these two might take on a totally different life. They certainly seem to be able to withstand a more vigourously Romantic approach, with silkier smoother sound, than they get here. Perhaps had the Cleveland Quartet...
I remember Gurn was thinking that these two might be "right up my alley." Mmmm, perhaps, but based now on full listenings, they have gone quite quickly into the wallpaper part of the collection. ::) :P ::) :-[ :-X :-\
As far as I know, they are the available versions:
Quatour Viotti/Erato
Miami Quartet/Conifer
Medici/Koch
Equinox SQ/??? (this one has gotten some good reviews)
and, I think that that's it. Does anyone have any compares?
I'll be honest. I'm listening to No.2 (1919) right now, and I'm having no problems with it. It's just nice, unobtrusive classical style SQ playing, in a very smooth, vanilla coating,... a touch on the sweet side, but not too much,... nothing really memorable, but very easy on the ears. Still, the Spohr comparison seems to stick for me.
The first SQ (1899) might be a bit more of its time (though still very old fashioned), but No.2 definitely is the laaast word on the 19th century, so out of place does it seem in 1919. Maybe Saint-Saens and Glazunov, then, are the last of the last?
I have enjoyed SS's late wind sonatas (and I'm familiar with the war horses), but I feel as though my interest in this composer has seen its last day. Here's to the old poofter, ha! Poor guy...ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz....zzzz....zzzz...
Well, of course, I had to try again, and so, the Medici String Quartet presented themselves on Ebay. Theirs is one of the two older recordings (along with the Viotti/Erato), and some have spoken of their enjoyment of this version (as compared with the Equinox in a review).
The first thing I noticed was that the Miami disc, with the Faure, reaches into the late 70min mark, but the Medici, with only the two S-S SQs, clocks in at 65mins.!!! WHAAAT is going on here?
I know we've had our "timings" controversies in the Haydn thread (where repeats make the dif many times), but what is going on here? I don't have both discs in front of me, but in No.2, the Miami come up with "7s" in each of the three mvmts., whereas the Medici come up with 9/12/9!!! Every mvmt. is at least two mins. longer in the Medici version, and yet when I compare, there is precious little to tell.
I thought the Miami were going to suck by compare, but they have the edge in the rhythmic bounce and crystal clear recording. The Medici's recording is a bit wooly, but their more "romantic" approach yields great dividends in terms of sheer sonic voluptousness (maybe not that strong a word for S-S!). The Miami surely play, and play well, but the Medici's obvious total dedication to these pieces shows. They make these two pieces sound like absolute masterpieces. My friend commented, as we were going back and forth, that the Medicis sounded like other music, and I had to agree.
As for my previous dismissal of these pieces, well, the Medicis definitely made a believer out of me. The almost ten page essay on S-S's apparent ease of composition (as opposed to the "romantic" turmoil of "greater" composers) really makes the case for these two SQs as being quite something special.
Especially, I noted the finale of
No.2, how S-S makes the most convincing case for aural bouquets of flowers: the music literally sounds like the shape of flowers. It's all very joyous and carefree. Also, the slow mvmt. of the e-minor is actually perfectly beautiful. Apparently, there was a LOT I missed with the Miami!
These two pieces are so free of your usually, romantic, composer angst, that it IS easy to dismiss them, but when you have such obsessively dedicated folks as the Medici to try to convince you, you really start to hear things that others might miss (not that the Miami MISS anything, they just aren't as heartbroken over these pieces as the Medici). The pieces are completely understated: music just for music's sake, but, not giving anything away.
Of course, now I have to hear the Viotti on Erato/Apex! ::)
Anyone have opinions of the PIANO QUARTET? Or, what's yer fav SS chamber work? Some have liked the Clarinet Sonata the best.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 27, 2010, 07:20:34 AM
Anyone have opinions of the PIANO QUARTET? Or, what's yer fav SS chamber work? Some have liked the Clarinet Sonata the best.
dear snyprrr,
the piano quartet, on youtube, made me sleepy.
The Piano Quartet played by the Nash Ensemble does not make me sleepy.
On most days, Saint-Saens bores the living hell out of me, but I do enjoy his Piano Concertos and Danse Macabre. Other than that, he's mostly fluff to me.
We had the "Egyptian" Piano Concerto (#5) played by Avan Yu this past weekend, and also the Coronation March op.117 written for the coronation of Edward VII (and re-using material from his opera Henry VIII. I've never seen a recording of the march but the concert was recorded by the C.B.C. and I'll try to get a broadcast date as it will be on line.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 29, 2010, 04:45:02 PM
On most days, Saint-Saens bores the living hell out of me, but I do enjoy his Piano Concertos and Danse Macabre. Other than that, he's mostly fluff to me.
Certainly not a "deep" composer, and certainly variable, but what I associate with him is fun. Lots of his chamber music (as well as Carnival of the animals) is simply fun listening.
How many have read his Musical Memories? It's truly fascinating, reading of his meetings with the likes of Rossini and Liszt, of his varying opinions of Massenet as a musician and as a person, and so on. I wish it were longer. An English translation can be read for free here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=MOcPAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Musical+Memories+Camille+site:books.google.com&source=bl&ots=-wPEah_VT3&sig=Tc4ulFNCL9unA4wmd8bNNW3IRqw&hl=en&ei=OdbBTN6JBMn2nAeLubyUAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
I highly recommend it, as it - or at least this English translation - contains some really memorable and clever, quotable lines. Included is this passage that perhaps could be turned onto his own works, for those who don't think too highly of his music.
"it is not the absence of defects but the presence of merits which makes works and men great. It is not always well to be without blemish. A too regular face or too pure voice lacks expression. If there is no such thing as perfection in this world, it is doubtless because it is not needed."
He also described some of the trends of music in his last years - singling out the "a-tonic" music:
"the man who abandons all keys and piles up dissonances which he neither introduces nor concludes and who, as a result, grunts his way through music as a pig through a flower garden."
Just picked up this new disc of Saint-Saens music for piano (some charming and relatively unknown piano pieces, as well as a few barnstormers) and his superb Cello Sonata in C minor which is a masterpiece. Just released this month, playing and sound quality are first rate
http://www.crotchet.co.uk/CDE84433.html
I was familiar with Saint-Saëns' well-known works (Organ Symphony, Carnival of the Animals, Danse Macabre, etc.), and while I could appreciate the composer's talent, his music didn't really grab me in an emotional way. Then, on a whim, I picked up a recording of his String Quartets and I find them to be delightful listening. Maybe it's due partly to this stressful time of year, but the CD has been in my car stereo for a few days now and I look forward to experiencing the delicate beauty and calming influence it provides as I rush to and from my various destinations.
It also motivated me to go to my vinyl shelves and give a spin to my Arthur Grumiaux 1954 Epic recording of the previously recommended Violin Concerto No. 3 (op. 61), Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso (Op. 28), and Havanaise (Op. 83). This is an excellent mono recording that doesn't appear to have made it yet to CD.
The Saint-Saëns concerted works are uniformly superb.
Only five pages for Saint-Saëns? ??? WTF?!?!?
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 11, 2012, 12:31:40 PM
Only five pages for Saint-Saëns? ??? WTF?!?!?
Well,... come ON! ::)
Quote from: Szykneij on March 31, 2012, 06:17:13 AM
I was familiar with Saint-Saëns' well-known works (Organ Symphony, Carnival of the Animals, Danse Macabre, etc.), and while I could appreciate the composer's talent, his music didn't really grab me in an emotional way. Then, on a whim, I picked up a recording of his String Quartets and I find them to be delightful listening. Maybe it's due partly to this stressful time of year, but the CD has been in my car stereo for a few days now and I look forward to experiencing the delicate beauty and calming influence it provides as I rush to and from my various destinations.
It also motivated me to go to my vinyl shelves and give a spin to my Arthur Grumiaux 1954 Epic recording of the previously recommended Violin Concerto No. 3 (op. 61), Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso (Op. 28), and Havanaise (Op. 83). This is an excellent mono recording that doesn't appear to have made it yet to CD.
Saint-Saens's SQs are probably the 'smoothest' Romantic SQs I know of. Though not Impressionistic, they flow like a dream. Though the melodic line may not be the most striking, the overall effect of both is of the highest quality, even though we're not dealing with life and... oh, wait, No.2 was written 'over' WWI, yet the master's sentiment is noble...
I highly recommend the SQs for stress! I have the Medici on Koch, a very special performance, though, the Miami SQ was also very good. The label that Skyznik (sorry, that's what my dis-lexic brain sees!!) has also gotten good reviews. Everyone should try these on a summer afternoon. Perfect!
On Tuesday night I happened to catch most of the
Saint-Saens Piano Concerto #5, which I had not heard since the early 1970's.
One's ears change throughout the decades, and I was rather amazed to (re)discover a considerable emotional depth in the work, which some have dismissed as "facile." (see below)
In today's
Wall Street Journal (August 8th) - perhaps not by chance - an article about
Saint-Saens appeared as part of the promotion of the Hudson Valley Bard Music Festival and its
Saint-Saens concerts.
Some salient excerpts:
QuoteThis year, Bard trains its lens on Camille Saint-Saëns (1835-1921), one of 19th-century France's most gifted musicians, but a figure largely misunderstood by posterity. For too long, Saint-Saëns's inventive power has been dismissed as facile, his elegant classicism as shallow and his light touch as light-weight. His oeuvre comprises more than 300 works in almost every genre. He was even the first important composer to write a film score—which he did at age 73 for the French silent film "The Assassination of the Duc de Guise" (1908). Yet only a handful of his works are regularly performed today.
Quoting
Leon Botstein:
Quote"There was a sweeping dismissal of emotional expression and of art that represented the capacity to take great pains to achieve Classical refinement and beauty. And who is effectively the 'poster child' for everything that modernism rebelled against? Camille Saint-Saëns.
"His music i(is)... about commanding and augmenting the vast realm of basic musical craftsmanship descending from Bach and Mozart."
See:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443687504577563062546203808.html?mod=WSJ_LifeStyle_Lifestyle_5#articleTabs%3Darticle (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443687504577563062546203808.html?mod=WSJ_LifeStyle_Lifestyle_5#articleTabs%3Darticle)
Quote from: Cato on August 08, 2012, 05:32:00 PMOn Tuesday night I happened to catch most of the Saint-Saens Piano Concerto #5, which I had not heard since the early 1970's.
One's ears change throughout the decades, and I was rather amazed to (re)discover a considerable emotional depth in the work, which some have dismissed as "facile."
I will listen to 5 today - it's been a while.
Quote from: eyeresist on August 08, 2012, 06:52:28 PM
I will listen to 5 today - it's been a while.
Many moons ago I had a great recording of the
Second and
Fourth Piano Concertos with
Philippe Entremont,
Eugene Ormandy, and
The Philadelphia Orchestra .
Out of interest, which is everyone's favourite Organ Symphony?
I might venture outside the fantastic Dutoit performance at some point. :) (which I think is the only performance I have ever heard, along with the great recent Chung Proms performance on youtube)
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 10, 2012, 01:05:28 PM
Out of interest, which is everyone's favourite Organ Symphony?
I might venture outside the fantastic Dutoit performance at some point. :) (which I think is the only performance I have ever heard, along with the great recent Chung Proms performance on youtube)
I have several favorites, but my current favorite is Levine/Berliners on DG. It doesn't get much better than this IMHO.
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 10, 2012, 01:05:28 PM
Out of interest, which is everyone's favourite Organ Symphony?
I might venture outside the fantastic Dutoit performance at some point. :) (which I think is the only performance I have ever heard, along with the great recent Chung Proms performance on youtube)
My favourite recording of Saint-Saëns'
Organ Symphony is the Karajan, what a great expressive strenght (particularly, in the final section) and orchestral brilliance it shows! The 3rd is also my favourite of Saint-Saëns' symphonies; it's a very beautiful and elegant work, and I really love its orchestration, especially the wonderful use of piano and organ.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 10, 2012, 01:20:14 PM
My favourite recording of Saint-Saëns' Organ Symphony is the Karajan, what a great expressive strenght (particularly, in the final section) and orchestral brilliance it shows! The 3rd is also my favourite of Saint-Saëns' symphonies; it's a very beautiful and elegant work, and I really love its orchestration, especially the wonderful use of piano and organ.
Of course this isn't personal bias speaking. ;) :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2012, 01:22:17 PM
Of course this isn't personal bias speaking. ;) :)
Of course it isn't. :P
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 10, 2012, 01:26:37 PM
Of course it isn't. :P
What other performances of the Saint-Saens' 3rd have you heard?
Thanks for the feedback, John and Ilaria! (Ilaria, I thought yours may be the Karajan!! ;) ) The 3rd symphony is such an impressive work. I agree, Ilaria, that the orchestration is brilliant, especially in the last two movements! (like in the 3rd, when it goes a little mad, using the piano arpeggios and shimmers of light percussion). I love the piece very much!
Saint Saens is certainly a composer whom I admire very much, I enjoy so much of his music. I particularly love the 3rd symphony, the piano concerti, VC 3 (in Laure's performance of course!!), and the masterful 'miniatures' such as Danse Macabre, which no-one cannot enjoy!!
I am actually yet to listen to his first two symphonies, what are they like?
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 10, 2012, 01:05:28 PM
Out of interest, which is everyone's favourite Organ Symphony?
For me, it's a tossup between kidney and gall bladder. :P
I do like SS3 a lot. I like how he encapsulates where Romantic music had arrived - Verdi in the 1st movement, Bruckner in the adagio, maybe Tchaikovsky for the scherzo Beethoven's 9th is the obvious touchstone for the scherzo, plus "back to Bach" for the finale's chorale theme. Great tunes, terrific rich orchestration. I just wish the finale felt a bit more "serious" - it's too much of a showpiece to be cathartic or transcendant.
I haven't made a survey of the recordings, sadly. Like everyone, I have a few de Waart versions, and they are servicable, but I usually reach for the classic Munch RCA version. I admit Munch's approach could afford to contain more subtleties. Apart from these, I recall being disappointed by Barenboim's version (in the Panorama set), but I should listen to that again one day.
From everything I've read I think Levine will please me, but getting his version just hasn't been a priority.
Quote from: CriticalI on October 10, 2012, 08:06:21 PMFrom everything I've read I think Levine will please me, but getting his version just hasn't been a priority.
I bought the Levine over a year or two ago, but now you can purchase it quite cheaply as it's apart of DG's First Choice budget series.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2012, 01:30:41 PM
What other performances of the Saint-Saens' 3rd have you heard?
Dutoit/Montreal Symphony Orchestra
Munch/Boston Symphony Orchestra
Chung/Royal Concertgebouw
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 11, 2012, 03:18:59 AM
Dutoit/Montreal Symphony Orchestra
Munch/Boston Symphony Orchestra
Chung/Royal Concertgebouw
Haven't heard the Chung, but enjoyed the Dutoit and Munch. Let's see if can remember which ones I own and have heard:
Dutoit/MSO
Munch/BSO
Levine/BPO
Martinon/ORTF National Orch.
Mata/DSO
Ozawa/Orchestre National de France
I think this is it. Not too many performances.
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 10, 2012, 01:38:33 PM
I am actually yet to listen to his first two symphonies, what are they like?
He actually wrote 5 symphonies, which can are nicely packaged together on EMI with Martinon conducting. They are not as famous as #3 but they do have a lot of the same qualities. S-S is always quite melodic and the pieces, though perhaps not as deep (or quite as personnel) as Mahler, have a wonderful atmosphere to them. I highly recommend the set.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 11, 2012, 07:21:05 AM
He actually wrote 5 symphonies, which can are nicely packaged together on EMI with Martinon conducting. They are not as famous as #3 but they do have a lot of the same qualities. S-S is always quite melodic and the pieces, though perhaps not as deep (or quite as personnel) as Mahler, have a wonderful atmosphere to them. I highly recommend the set.
Yes, that is a good set, so I endorse this message. :)
Thank you for the feedback on the recordings and the symphonies everyone! I shall definitely look into getting the Martinon set, and also the Levine SS3 (and the Karajan too, Ilaria! ;) )
And which is everyone's favourite set of the piano concerti? I own the Roge/Dutoit which I am very happy with. Really wonderful performances!
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 11, 2012, 10:21:42 AM
Thank you for the feedback on the recordings and the symphonies everyone! I shall definitely look into getting the Martinon set, and also the Levine SS3 (and the Karajan too, Ilaria! ;) )
And which is everyone's favourite set of the piano concerti? I own the Roge/Dutoit which I am very happy with. Really wonderful performances!
That one for me too, so far. I haven't heard the Collard, which I may pick up one of these days.
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 10, 2012, 01:05:28 PM
Out of interest, which is everyone's favourite Organ Symphony?
Barenboim. It's one of those rare performances, so perfect, that I no longer listen to anyone else.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/SSorganbaren.jpg)
Sarge
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 11, 2012, 10:21:42 AM
And which is everyone's favourite set of the piano concerti? I own the Roge/Dutoit which I am very happy with. Really wonderful performances!
The Audite cycle with Malikova and Sanderling.
Sarge
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 11, 2012, 10:21:42 AM
Thank you for the feedback on the recordings and the symphonies everyone! I shall definitely look into getting the Martinon set, and also the Levine SS3 (and the Karajan too, Ilaria! ;) )
And which is everyone's favourite set of the piano concerti? I own the Roge/Dutoit which I am very happy with. Really wonderful performances!
So glad to hear that, Daniel. ;) Although I haven't listened to it yet, I think the Martinon set should be very good; Martinon is an excellent interpreter of French music.
About the piano concerti, I've heard only Collard' set, which is very beautiful.
Thanks for all the feedback everyone! The Collard set of the concerti is certainly one I'd love to hear. The piano concerti are such exquisite works! :)
And thanks for more of the SS 3 feedback, the Barenboim and Pretre will also have to be ones I look into. I'd certainly love to own all these recordings of the symphony!
Yes, I can certainly imagine the Martinon being excellent, Ilaria! :)
For the piano concerti, I do like Roge/Dutoit a lot, but I think the new winner is this set:
(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/009/562/0000956220_500.jpg)
For me, it doesn't get any better than this: incredible pianism from Malikova, assertive accompaniment from Sanderling, and exquisite playing from the Cologne Radio Symphony (one of my all-time favorite orchestras). The audio quality is also top-notch. Crystal clear dynamics. I don't want you to not go for the Collard, which is a good, reliable set by any standard, but just letting you know this: why drive a rough Honda when you could drive a Cadillac? The only difference here is you're not paying the Cadillac tag price. ;) :D
I still stand by my comments about these performances. Absolutely first-rate performances. The only set of PCs that I don't own is Hough's, which I heard isn't nowhere near as accomplished as the sets I already own: Malikova, Collard, and Roge.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 21, 2012, 08:21:16 PM
I still stand by my comments about these performances. Absolutely first-rate performances. The only set of PCs that I don't own is Hough's, which I heard isn't nowhere near as accomplished as the sets I already own: Malikova, Collard, and Roge.
Having heard the Hough (and still owning it), I would say the problem is the sound, not the playing. It is the only Hyperion disc that I can think of that has disappointed me on the technical side (and I have a ton), though it is perhaps a personal preference. It always sounds to me as if the sound is dampened and not allowed to bloom. The Roge/Dutoit sounds much more open and warm in comparison (to me).
A lot of people rave about the playing of the Hough (it won various awards after all), and I would agree that it is quite accomplished and assured.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 21, 2012, 08:37:02 PM
Having heard the Hough (and still owning it), I would say the problem is the sound, not the playing. It is the only Hyperion disc that I can think of that has disappointed me on the technical side (and I have a ton), though it is perhaps a personal preference. It always sounds to me as if the sound is dampened and not allowed to bloom. The Roge/Dutoit sounds much more open and warm in comparison (to me).
A lot of people rave about the playing of the Hough (it won various awards after all), and I would agree that it is quite accomplished and assured.
Thanks for your feedback, Neal. This is what I've heard about the Hough set. For these concerti, it's absolutely vital that the recording quality is not only consistent, but like you said open. This could very well be the reason
why I haven't bought the set already and your comments have definitely reassured some suspicions I've had about the audio quality. I already own three outstanding sets anyway. This Malikova is my favorite of the three I own. For years, Roge/Dutoit were my standbys, but it seems this newer set gave these concerti a much needed sonic boost. It also helps if the soloist/conductor are on the same page and it's a true collaborative effort which I believe these performances are. Have you heard the Malikova/Sanderling?
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 21, 2012, 09:01:24 PM
Thanks for your feedback, Neal. This is what I've heard about the Hough set. For these concerti, it's absolutely vital that the recording quality is not only consistent, but like you said open. This could very well be the reason why I haven't bought the set already and your comments have definitely reassured some suspicions I've had about the audio quality. I already own three outstanding sets anyway. This Malikova is my favorite of the three I own. For years, Roge/Dutoit were my standbys, but it seems this newer set gave these concerti a much needed sonic boost. It also helps if the soloist/conductor are on the same page and it's a true collaborative effort which I believe these performances are. Have you heard the Malikova/Sanderling?
Not yet. One day...
I have both the Hough and the Malikova and the Hough is great aside from the sound. I alternate between Malikova and Hough. Hough's problem is the sound, and Malikova's problem is that her playing can seem too safe on occasion, especially in comparison to Hough, who can really push the envelope. Both do bring a new life to the overplayed second concerto. Malikova's recording of the third concerto is just insufferably boring for me, though. Hough is really head and shoulders above her on that one, but they are competitive on the others.
Quote from: lescamil on November 21, 2012, 09:33:55 PM
I have both the Hough and the Malikova and the Hough is great aside from the sound. I alternate between Malikova and Hough. Hough's problem is the sound, and Malikova's problem is that her playing can seem too safe on occasion, especially in comparison to Hough, who can really push the envelope. Both do bring a new life to the overplayed second concerto. Malikova's recording of the third concerto is just insufferably boring for me, though. Hough is really head and shoulders above her on that one, but they are competitive on the others.
I liked Malikova's performance of the 3rd, but I always thought of this work as a dreamy type of sound-world. I'll have to go and listen to Roge's performance of it. I also don't think Malikova's playing is 'safe.' I'm not looking for a Martha Argerich performance in these concerti. For me, these types of performances are out-of-character in these works. These concerti require not only an ear for the inner details, but they also demand a lightness of touch. But it shouldn't be surprising that you and I disagree about recordings, because we disagree about about many composers as well.
I enjoy S-S's Late Sonatas, and especially the two String Quartets. He got just that little extra bit of gravitas at the end.
Quote from: Lethevich on October 09, 2009, 10:56:25 AM
.....(although I don't rate his chamber music quite as highly as some...).
Old post, but sort of slim pickings on this thread. Just wanted to say I've recently gotten to know SS's first cello sonata. It's the performance below. Either the work is intentionally written with an ear towards depth or the performers dig deeply into the score to fatten it up. Either way it's an astounding piece. (But that's as far as I've gotten with SS and his chamber output).
[asin]B0000245TC[/asin]
The rest of the disc is equally fascinating.
As far as the Organ symphony, samples of the Barenboim recording sound enticing. But samples of this Nézet-Séguin recording sound equally enticing. Anyone heard it?
[asin]B000F7MJDE[/asin]
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 22, 2012, 08:41:13 AM
Old post, but sort of slim pickings on this thread. Just wanted to say I've recently gotten to know SS's first cello sonata. It's the performance below. Either the work is intentionally written with an ear towards depth or the performers dig deeply into the score to fatten it up. Either way it's an astounding piece. (But that's as far as I've gotten with SS and his chamber output).
[asin]B0000245TC[/asin]
The rest of the disc is equally fascinating.
Can't say I've heard the
Cello Concerto No. 1 nor the
Cello Sonata No. 1, but I imagine them being beautiful, melodic works. I've heard his
Cello Concerto No. 2, which is just a gorgeous work. His music for violin is just as inspired. Saint-Saens is one of the few composers who I like their orchestral and chamber works. It's usually one or the other. He's such an amazing composer that whose star seems to have faded in recent decades. Not sure why. During his lifetime, he was highly praised and rightfully so.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 22, 2012, 09:32:56 AM
As far as the Organ symphony, samples of the Barenboim recording sound enticing. But samples of this Nézet-Séguin recording sound equally enticing. Anyone heard it?
[asin]B000F7MJDE[/asin]
I wouldn't mind picking it up but it appears to be out-of-print. Do you have a current favorite
Organ Symphony, DD?
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 22, 2012, 08:41:13 AM
Old post, but sort of slim pickings on this thread. Just wanted to say I've recently gotten to know SS's first cello sonata. It's the performance below. Either the work is intentionally written with an ear towards depth or the performers dig deeply into the score to fatten it up. Either way it's an astounding piece. (But that's as far as I've gotten with SS and his chamber output).
[asin]B0000245TC[/asin]
That does look especially enticing.
The rest of the disc is equally fascinating.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 22, 2012, 05:51:38 PM
I wouldn't mind picking it up but it appears to be out-of-print. Do you have a current favorite Organ Symphony, DD?
Y'know, I don't actually have a recording of the Organ symphony, nor any of SS's symphonies. In fact, my collection of SS amounts to only three CD's. But ironically I've
heard quite a bit of SS as my local classical station programs his music pretty often.
It's not that I don't like SS - I do - it's just there's so much music out there to collect.
Lately I'm looking at his symphonies, his PCs, his first two VCs (I have his third), and maybe his opera.
It's new territory for me but it's a journey I'm happy to take on!
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 22, 2012, 08:14:59 PM
Y'know, I don't actually have a recording of the Organ symphony, nor any of SS's symphonies. In fact, my collection of SS amounts to only three CD's. But ironically I've heard quite a bit of SS as my local classical station programs his music pretty often.
It's not that I don't like SS - I do - it's just there's so much music out there to collect.
Lately I'm looking at his symphonies, his PCs, his first two VCs (I have his third), and maybe his opera.
It's new territory for me but it's a journey I'm happy to take on!
His concerti are fine. His symphonies are uneven in inspiration. The first symphony sounds like leftover Mendelssohn. The second he begins to find his voice and the third needs no explanation. I own a good bit of Saint-Saens and he's certainly a composer I enjoy very much, but I have found his music works better, for me, in small doses. I don't try to overload myself with his music. In the end, I have to have more grit and edge in my music, which is why Shostakovich is my favorite composer. I don't think Saint-Saens is a composer of much depth, but his music sure is fun! :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 22, 2012, 09:29:35 PM
His concerti are fine. His symphonies are uneven in inspiration. The first symphony sounds like leftover Mendelssohn. The second he begins to find his voice and the third needs no explanation. I own a good bit of Saint-Saens and he's certainly a composer I enjoy very much, but I have found his music works better, for me, in small doses. I don't try to overload myself with his music. In the end, I have to have more grit and edge in my music, which is why Shostakovich is my favorite composer. I don't think Saint-Saens is a composer of much depth, but his music sure is fun! :)
Thanks for the assessment, MI. I probably won't need to binge on SS but I agree there's lots of potential.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 22, 2012, 05:51:38 PM
I wouldn't mind picking it up but it appears to be out-of-print. Do you have a current favorite Organ Symphony, DD?
The regular CD (as opposed to SACD) of the Nezet-Seguin performance is in stock for $18 at ArkivMusic (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=381752) and can be downloaded via MP3 or FLAC (http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=225314&countryId=US&lc=EN) for those interested.
As an aside, I love all five piano concertos dearly and, although I have heard a lot of solo piano music by SS that I liked, the ongoing complete survey by Geoffrey Burleson is disappointingly played. Piers Lane's excellent etudes CD on Hyperion should be sufficient to fill up the SS piano music niche in your library.
For some reason I'm weirdly intrigued by the idea of hearing his organ music.
Quote from: Brian on November 23, 2012, 08:43:07 PM
The regular CD (as opposed to SACD) of the Nezet-Seguin performance is in stock for $18 at ArkivMusic (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=381752) and can be downloaded via MP3 or FLAC (http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=225314&countryId=US&lc=EN) for those interested.
That recording is too expensive, especially for a work that has been recorded many, many times. When it comes down to $6 or $7, I'll pick it up.
Quote from: Brian on November 23, 2012, 08:43:07 PM
The regular CD (as opposed to SACD) of the Nezet-Seguin performance is in stock for $18 at ArkivMusic (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=381752) and can be downloaded via MP3 or FLAC (http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=225314&countryId=US&lc=EN) for those interested.
Actually, when you add in shipping, you will add $1-3, so it will be $19-21. Amazon have a used copy for $18.75 (includes shipping). MDT have it, and if it goes on sale, would probably get to the $14-15 range with shipping. I'd wait if a disc version is needed.
Quote from: Brian on November 23, 2012, 08:43:07 PM
The regular CD (as opposed to SACD) of the Nezet-Seguin performance is in stock for $18 at ArkivMusic (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=381752) and can be downloaded via MP3 or FLAC (http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=225314&countryId=US&lc=EN) for those interested.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 24, 2012, 06:59:40 AM
That recording is too expensive, especially for a work that has been recorded many, many times. When it comes down to $6 or $7, I'll pick it up.
Sorry, I made a mistake in my post above. The Amazon link I posted was to the
Hybrid SACD, which apparently is OOP.
The
regular CD is still in print and much more economically priced. It's moved to the top of my wishlist.
[asin]B002YINO7W[/asin]
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 27, 2012, 05:57:15 PM
Sorry, I made a mistake in my post above. The Amazon link I posted was to the Hybrid SACD, which apparently is OOP.
The regular CD is still in print and much more economically priced. It's moved to the top of my wishlist.
[asin]B002YINO7W[/asin]
Oh, I see. I like this CD price much better. :)
Due to recent discussion of the S-S PCs in another thread.....
The only recordings I own of the PCs are the fantastic ones by Roge/Dutoit on Decca. It's hard to beat both Roge and Dutoit in French repertoire and when you pair them up, you have true French greatness. :) But, there have been some other recordings of them which have received much acclaim:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Ik7ru8-FL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A8fsmLecL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ctT%2BrjjBL._SX300_.jpg) (http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/2008-06-17/saintsaens_thibaudet.jpg)
How do members feel these recordings measure up to Roge/Dutoit (which, I, at the moment, couldn't imagine being bettered)? Thanks in advance. :)
Quote from: kyjo on August 24, 2013, 04:32:22 PM
Due to recent discussion of the S-S PCs in another thread.....
My favorite is the second concerto and for that I really enjoy El Bacha/Verrot. Sample if you can - it's worth it.
[asin]B0012DAC98[/asin]
Quote from: kyjo on August 24, 2013, 04:32:22 PM(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ctT%2BrjjBL._SX300_.jpg)
How do members feel these recordings measure up to Roge/Dutoit (which, I, at the moment, couldn't imagine being bettered)? Thanks in advance. :)
I own every set of Saint-Saens' PCs and my vote goes to Malikova/Sanderling. Such deeply felt performances. I do like Roge/Dutoit a lot as well but the Malikova is worth owning.
Thanks, Dancing Divertimentian and John. :)
Quote from: kyjo on August 24, 2013, 04:32:22 PM
Due to recent discussion of the S-S PCs in another thread.....
The only recordings I own of the PCs are the fantastic ones by Roge/Dutoit on Decca. It's hard to beat both Roge and Dutoit in French repertoire and when you pair them up, you have true French greatness. :) But, there have been some other recordings of them which have received much acclaim:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Ik7ru8-FL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A8fsmLecL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ctT%2BrjjBL._SX300_.jpg) (http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/2008-06-17/saintsaens_thibaudet.jpg)
How do members feel these recordings measure up to Roge/Dutoit (which, I, at the moment, couldn't imagine being bettered)? Thanks in advance. :)
The AUdite version is very popular here. I still haven't rushed out to get it as I have two versions, but it sits in my wishlist nevertheless. I would NOT recommend the Hough on Hyperion. It's not because of the playing (which is fine), but because of the sound. I have nearly every one of that romantic piano series (excluding the most recent), and that is the only one where I find the sound very harsh. Collard also is popular. I think the Roge is a good one, so whatever you get, you have a good fall back position!
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 24, 2013, 08:23:19 PM
The AUdite version is very popular here. I still haven't rushed out to get it as I have two versions, but it sits in my wishlist nevertheless. I would NOT recommend the Hough on Hyperion. It's not because of the playing (which is fine), but because of the sound. I have nearly every one of that romantic piano series (excluding the most recent), and that is the only one where I find the sound very harsh. Collard also is popular. I think the Roge is a good one, so whatever you get, you have a good fall back position!
Thanks, mc ukrneal. :) I've put the Audite disc on my want list.
Quote from: kyjo on August 24, 2013, 04:32:22 PM
How do members feel these recordings measure up to Roge/Dutoit (which, I, at the moment, couldn't imagine being bettered)? Thanks in advance. :)
I have these:
SANDERLING/MALIKOVA
FROMENT/TACCHINO
BAUDO/CICCOLINI
PREVIN/COLLARD
DUTOIT/ROGÉ
Malikova is my favorite; Rogé my least favorite (partly due to tempo: Malikova is marginally slower, which adds weight and seriousness when appropriate but never at the expense of the music's spirit). Overall I think very highly of Collard too but Previn screws up the tempo and rhythm of second movement's hymn theme in the Fourth Concerto. Since that's my single favorite moment, it's an unforgiveable sin.
We've discussed these concertos considerably in the past. I tried to find some of my discussion but failed, and I'm too lazy to put forth arguments now for my choices. I did find these amusing (and contentious) posts by mszczuj in the SS PC poll thread:
Quote from: mszczuj on April 19, 2012, 12:41:06 PM
Dutoit's Saint-Saens? This is abolutely the worst thing available on records.
Quote from: mszczuj on April 20, 2012, 01:51:20 PM
Well, may be I have exaggerated. In fact I can't say that Dutoit's Concerto No.4 is worse than his Danse macabre.
No emotions, no fantasy, no l'esprit. Listening to Dutoit's Saint-Saens is for me as fascinating as counting pickets in a mile long fence.
I don't dislike the Dutoit cycle quite
that much...but it is last I'd save in a fire :D But you aren't alone in loving Rogé. It's well thought of.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2013, 08:27:45 AM
I have these:
SANDERLING/MALIKOVA
FROMENT/TACCHINO
BAUDO/CICCOLINI
PREVIN/COLLARD
DUTOIT/ROGÉ
Malikova is my favorite; Rogé my least favorite (partly due to tempo: Malikova is marginally slower, which adds weight and seriousness when appropriate but never at the expense of the music's spirit). Overall I think very highly of Collard too but Previn screws up the tempo and rhythm of second movement's hymn theme in the Fourth Concerto. Since that's my single favorite moment, it's an unforgiveable sin.
We've discussed these concertos considerably in the past. I tried to find some of my discussion but failed, and I'm too lazy to put forth arguments now for my choices. I did find these amusing (and contentious) posts by mszczuj in the SS PC poll thread:
I don't dislike the Dutoit cycle quite that much...but it is last I'd save in a fire :D But you aren't alone in loving Rogé. It's well thought of.
Sarge
Thanks for the extensive reply, Sarge. The way you describe Malikova's performances sound quite promising. These concertos need to be played with enough weight and seriousness to prevent them from hinting at any triteness.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2013, 08:27:45 AM
We've discussed these concertos considerably in the past. I tried to find some of my discussion but failed, and I'm too lazy to put forth arguments now for my choices.
How about:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg340117/topicseen.html#msg340117 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg340117/topicseen.html#msg340117)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 25, 2013, 08:41:31 AM
How about:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg340117/topicseen.html#msg340117 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg340117/topicseen.html#msg340117)
That was fine detective work, Neal. Nicely done. Thanks.
Sarge
Thought I'd knock some dust off the SS thread...
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread -
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 27, 2014, 06:39:07 PM
A little Saint-Saens concerti splurge:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81PBHh0DcAL._SL1400_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81ULJ%2BneV6L._SL1500_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/816UCwvQ7HL._SL1500_.jpg)
Anyone know any of these recordings? I've done some extensive sampling of them all and they all sound first-rate. Can't wait to sink my teeth back into the concertante works.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 27, 2014, 06:59:52 PM
Thought I'd knock some dust off the SS thread...
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread -
Anyone know any of these recordings? I've done some extensive sampling of them all and they all sound first-rate. Can't wait to sink my teeth back into the concertante works.
I have the Ulf Hoelscher recordings from the Newton box (Violin Concertos) - outstanding (though I have never compared them to others).
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 27, 2014, 08:31:55 PM
I have the Ulf Hoelscher recordings from the Newton box (Violin Concertos) - outstanding (though I have never compared them to others).
Good to hear, Neal. I believe Sarge mentioned he liked the Ciccolini/Baudo cycle of PCs, though I'd like to hear some input from him too! :)
I got those Hoelscher recordings in the little Brilliant box with Martinon's symphonies and Tacchino's piano concertos, and I liked them very much. I think my only point of comparison [vln ctos] is the Graffin recording on Hyperion....nope, it's still in the shrinkwrap. :-[
I am keen to check out more chamber music: namely the piano trios (most likely either Wanderer or Florestan) and the woodwind sonatas (no idea...maybe a Naxos disc just to hear a bunch of them), next.
Quote from: Octave on March 28, 2014, 01:07:31 AM
I got those Hoelscher recordings in the little Brilliant box with Martinon's symphonies and Tacchino's piano concertos, and I liked them very much. I think my only point of comparison [vln ctos] is the Graffin recording on Hyperion....nope, it's still in the shrinkwrap. :-[
I am keen to check out more chamber music: namely the piano trios (most likely either Wanderer or Florestan) and the woodwind sonatas (no idea...maybe a Naxos disc just to hear a bunch of them), next.
For the sonatas and some other wonderful chamber works, highly recommend this double disc, which used to be at Berkshire:
[asin]B00095L8X4[/asin]
Thanks for that recommendation, Neal. One recent recommendation (not someone I know, just someone online) spoke highly of a recent Piano Quintet/Quartet with Cristina Ortiz (Naxos), going so far as to say that by comparison the Nash's recordings were 'dull'. Do you happen to know that Naxos recording?
However, I am not assuming the Nash's S-S is anything like 'dull'!
Another piece that I'd like to explore is the REQUIEM; I received a recommendation for the classic Mercier, but if there is a more recent recording that equals or exceeds it, that would be interesting.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 27, 2014, 08:56:02 PM
Good to hear, Neal. I believe Sarge mentioned he liked the Ciccolini/Baudo cycle of PCs, though I'd like to hear some input from him too! :)
Yeah, it's one of my favorite S-S PC sets (100% French forces 8) ) with a particularly impressive C minor--just prepare yourself for an
incredibly slow Allegro (after the second movement's Andante). They give that hymn-like theme some slow motion lovin' :D
The only thing keeping it from being the absolute favorite set is the sound: it's decent analogue but the piano is balanced a little too forward for my taste, occasionally burying orchestral detail.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 28, 2014, 06:45:31 AM
Yeah, it's one of my favorite S-S PC sets (100% French forces 8) ) with a particularly impressive C minor--just prepare yourself for an incredibly slow Allegro (after the second movement's Andante). They give that hymn-like theme some slow motion lovin' :D
The only thing keeping it from being the absolute favorite set is the sound: it's decent analogue but the piano is balanced a little too forward for my taste, occasionally burying orchestral detail.
Sarge
Thanks for the feedback, Sarge.
Quote from: Octave on March 28, 2014, 05:38:47 AM
Thanks for that recommendation, Neal. One recent recommendation (not someone I know, just someone online) spoke highly of a recent Piano Quintet/Quartet with Cristina Ortiz (Naxos), going so far as to say that by comparison the Nash's recordings were 'dull'. Do you happen to know that Naxos recording?
However, I am not assuming the Nash's S-S is anything like 'dull'!
Another piece that I'd like to explore is the REQUIEM; I received a recommendation for the classic Mercier, but if there is a more recent recording that equals or exceeds it, that would be interesting.
I don't have anything to compare it to - sorry. But I do have the Requiem on Chandos (Fasolis). I seem to recall liking it, but I will try to get back to you and let you know.
It seems to be almost unanimous with all the Saint-Saens reviews I've read that the Mercier recording of the Requiem is the one to own and interestingly enough someone uploaded this performance on YT for all ears to hear. I've already heard the performance years ago and loved it, but I can't believe I waited until this morning to buy it. I suppose my mind was a bit preoccupied with the forty something other composers I love. ;) ;D
Quote from: Octave on March 28, 2014, 01:07:31 AM
I got those Hoelscher recordings in the little Brilliant box with Martinon's symphonies and Tacchino's piano concertos, and I liked them very much. I think my only point of comparison [vln ctos] is the Graffin recording on Hyperion....nope, it's still in the shrinkwrap. :-[
I am keen to check out more chamber music: namely the piano trios (most likely either Wanderer or Florestan) and the woodwind sonatas (no idea...maybe a Naxos disc just to hear a bunch of them), next.
Yeah, I can't say I've had much exposure to the VCs other than a Chung recording I had bought a year or so ago, but I've been meaning to get around to giving them a listen again, which prompted me to make those purchases. Good to hear about Hoelscher. I've read many good things about his performances.
I, too, have been wondering about SS's chamber music and where to go. It seems those Hyperion recordings seem to be praised pretty highly. But something is nagging away in my mind to check out the Trio Wanderer's recording of the
Piano Trios instead of the Florestan's. I don't know
why exactly. In fact, I've been looking at a Harmonia Mundi recording of the
Cello Sonata with Emmanuelle Bertrand that looks mighty tempting, but for some strange reason this recording seems like it's hard to get ahold of. I'm also looking at getting the
Violin Sonatas disc on Hyperion, but, again, a nagging feeling inside of me tells me to avoid it. Again, don't know
why.
Um, so apparently I already own the Nash Ensemble recording. :-[
I was remembering a non-hardcopy sampling but didn't remember the purchase. #FirstWorldProblems
Thanks for the recommendation, Neal. It looks like that 2cd (Hyperion) includes all the wind pieces as the single Naxos disc [Canada's National Arts Centre Quintet +], with the exception of the Romance in E major, Op. 67 [arranged for piano/horn], which is only on the Naxos disc.
Quote from: Octave on March 29, 2014, 12:03:23 AM
Um, so apparently I already own the Nash Ensemble recording. :-[
I was remembering a non-hardcopy sampling but didn't remember the purchase. #FirstWorldProblems
Thanks for the recommendation, Neal. It looks like that 2cd (Hyperion) includes all the wind pieces as the single Naxos disc [Canada's National Arts Centre Quintet +], with the exception of the Romance in E major, Op. 67 [arranged for piano/horn], which is only on the Naxos disc.
Well, there's your excuse to get that one too! And let us know... :)
Frustrating that I can't find the Bertrand recording of the Cello Sonatas for a good price. Agh!!!!
3rd violin concerto is really something. I like its light instrumentation, kind of reminds me in some way of Bach's VCs.
Quote from: Alberich on July 08, 2015, 07:27:59 AM
3rd violin concerto is really something. I like its light instrumentation, kind of reminds me in some way of Bach's VCs.
Charming and perfectly wrought.
Yesterday I heard Saint-Saëns' Violin Sonata No. 2 for the first time. Great work! I especially love the third movement. 0:)
[asin]B00E3ISIJ0[/asin]
Quote from: 71 dB on January 19, 2016, 07:57:19 AM
Yesterday I heard Saint-Saëns' Violin Sonata No. 2 for the first time. Great work! I especially love the third movement. 0:)
[asin]B00E3ISIJ0[/asin]
Yes, the second VS is great! I don't have the Naxos but the recording I do have I like.
oh, yes - very nice piece
very little of Saint-Saens' instrumental work is less than excellent - good composer!
Listening to Piano Concerto no. 3. Awesome.
Discovering new works. The first movement of PC 1 is breathtaking.
Quote from: Alberich on June 07, 2016, 08:52:34 AM
Discovering new works. The first movement of PC 1 is breathtaking.
Indeed. So much of Saint-Saens is breathtaking. Those PCs are no exception. What PC cycle are you listening to?
Jean-Philippe Collard, Royal philharmonic orchestra. André Previn.
Quote from: Alberich on June 07, 2016, 09:05:51 AM
Jean-Philippe Collard, Royal philharmonic orchestra. André Previn.
Excellent cycle. My favorite cycle is this one with Anna Malikova:
[asin]B0036FVVIQ[/asin]
Quote from: BachQ on April 12, 2007, 05:11:55 AM
Camille Saint-Saëns (1835-1921) was a remarkable composer. Among his credits:
1. Saint-Saens has been described as the "French Mendelssohn"
2. Franz Liszt regarded Saint-Saens as the greatest organist in the world.
3. Saint-Saens was an acclaimed virtuoso pianist.
4. Highly precocious, Saint-Saens composed his first piece at age 3.
5. At the beginning of the twentieth century, he was regarded in the US and UK as France's greatest living composer.
6. Saint-Saens wrote outstanding music in virtually every genre, including:
-sonatas for violin & piano and cello & piano
-chamber - trios for piano
-chamber - other (incl quartets, quintets, septets)
-vocal and choral (including a Mass and a Requiem)
-concerti (5 for piano, 3 for violin, and 2 for cello)
-symphonies (3 in all, including his "Organ Symphony")
-symphonic poems
-operas (13 in all, including "Samson et Dalila")
-misc ("Danse Macabre", " Le Rouet d'Omphale" and "Carnival of the Animals")
(http://clanfaw.free.fr/saint_saens_ico_a.jpg)
Saint-Saëns was a brilliant orchestrator and pianist, and he wrote many masterpieces that are standards in the repertoire, including his piano concerti numbers 2, 4, and 5; his "Organ Symphony," his "Danse Macabre," his "Messe de Requiem", his piano trios, and other stuff.
Marvelous, delightful stuff. 8)
I simply never listen to the guy. No interest, maybe that will change, but of the music I know of Saint-Saens it simply lacks depth, with the exception of The Swan...
Sigh.
What a narrow vision of a fantastic composer.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 08, 2016, 03:48:25 AMExcellent cycle. My favorite cycle is this one with Anna Malikova:
[asin]B0036FVVIQ[/asin]
Mine too, Now for sale at JPC (Germany): https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Camille-Saint-Saens-1835-1921-Klavierkonzerte-Nr-1-5/hnum/2857715
Quote from: Christo on June 09, 2016, 12:58:59 AM
Mine too, Now for sale at JPC (Germany): https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Camille-Saint-Saens-1835-1921-Klavierkonzerte-Nr-1-5/hnum/2857715
Excellent price for that set. It rarely goes so low.
Quote from: 28Orot on June 08, 2016, 08:40:00 PM
I simply never listen to the guy. No interest, maybe that will change, but of the music I know of Saint-Saens it simply lacks depth, with the exception of The Swan...
Lacks depth? You evidently haven't spent any time with the symphonies, chamber music, or the concertante works. Plus, if you have no interest in the composer, then why come to his composer thread in the first place?
Quote from: Christo on June 09, 2016, 12:58:59 AM
Mine too, Now for sale at JPC (Germany): https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Camille-Saint-Saens-1835-1921-Klavierkonzerte-Nr-1-5/hnum/2857715
Excellent, Johan. As Neal pointed out, those Audite sets, especially that one, hardly ever go on sale.
Quote from: Christo on June 09, 2016, 12:58:59 AM
Mine too, Now for sale at JPC (Germany): https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Camille-Saint-Saens-1835-1921-Klavierkonzerte-Nr-1-5/hnum/2857715
I agree that the Malikova/Sanderling set is superb- joins Collard/Previn and Roge/Dutoit as favorites. They all permit the music to unfold naturally, never rushed. All great works!
Quote from: BachQ on April 12, 2007, 07:10:43 AM
Michel's enthusiastic embrace of Saint-Saëns First Piano Concerto (I don't know it nearly as well as the beloved Second Piano Concerto):
What great stuff Saint-Saen's Piano Concerto No.1 in D Major is!
I am certain it is under-rated. To me, it sounds like a mixture of Tchaikovskian orchestral melodies, and Beethovian rhythm, structure and dynamics (one thinks of his 2nd and 3rd). The oscillation between moments of solo or moderately accompanied virtuosity and the orchestra, with abundant clarity and precision, remind me structurally of Beethoven's 3rd. In short, there is what there is in all Beethoven's piano concertos: a magnificent balance between piano and orchestra.
I am completely captivated by the Saint-Saens' First Piano Concerto. The beautiful "Outdoors" quality of the first movement and then that exceptionally dark second movement are magnificent, and I love the exuberant final movement. The ridiculous comments about S-S lacking profundity are usually stated by people who are clearly ignorant of so much of his music. I am hoping to hear this concerto in a live concert performance some day- but not an easy task in the US! I really enjoy your commentary.
It also seems ludicrous to suggest, as some critics have, that Saint-Saens lacked profundity and so on. Not only, of course, is it completely idiotic to suggest that good music must have profundity, but I think it is completely false if one looks at the 2nd movement of the 1st Piano Concerto with its slow, tired negativity that echoes Beethoven - this time the 2nd movement of the 7th Sonata. Certainly, I think this slow movement is less brilliant than Beethoven's majestic subtly - some may even call it insincere - but the emotional depth is, I think, still there loud and clear.
Even taken as a whole, this D Major concerto somewhat mirrors Beethoven's 3rd (and arguably the 5th) as it has a very dominant theme in the first movement, outward looking and at times celebratory, followed by a far more insular and intimate second movement, ended by a real memorable and indulgent blast. I am sure I once read that Saint-Saens is sometimes compared to Beethoven, and this early PC certainly illustrates that argument well.
One other observation is the use of staccato in places in the final movement that I haven't previously noticed (repeated also in his PC2 first movement rather significantly). Saint-Saens injects a Prokofieven jovialness into this movement, but is then peculiarly - though interestingly - contrasted by an almost hideously dreamy and repetitive piano melody reminiscent of a later Rachmaninov (like the ghastly Rach 3!). But what this does show, I think, is that Saint-Saens was a marvellously talented composer; echoing the past whilst predating that which followed, and writing music of subtlely, depth and sophistication that as a compliment is so ofen denied. This first piano concerto, whatever is weaknesses, is a piece of music underappreciated by, it seems, a really great number of classical music "fans".
What do you think of this Piano Concerto, or his other piano concertos, or his other work in general?
Quote from: mjmosca on July 02, 2016, 03:30:30 PM
I agree that the Malikova/Sanderling set is superb- joins Collard/Previn and Roge/Dutoit as favorites. They all permit the music to unfold naturally, never rushed. All great works!
Welcome to the forum! :)
Q
Quote from: BachQ on April 24, 2007, 11:54:12 AM
I've never heard the OBOE SONATA . . . . . . Thanks for the tip! . . . . . . 8)
You have a real treat in store for you! The three woodwind sonatas [oboe, clarinet and bassoon] that Saint-Saens wrote in his last year, 1921 are all exceptional masterpieces! They have a sense of timelessness that seems to come to composers late in life. S-S's chamber works are among his very best and most important. The 2 Cello sonatas, 2 Violin Sonatas, 2 String quartets, Piano Quintet and the 2 Piano quartets, the 2 Trios, and the Trumpet Septet (which Martin Cooper pointed out sets the path for Stravinsky's Neo-classical phase 50 years earlier!) are all great works. happy listening.
BTW- the Naxos recording of the Cello sonatas is very fine and readily available and also has the superb early Suite for Cello and Piano.
The opening post speaks of "3 symphonies" by Saint-Saëns, when there are actually five. An un-numbered Symphony in A, and the "Urbs Roma" Symphony in F.
Quote from: Maestro267 on July 04, 2016, 12:03:07 AM
The opening post speaks of "3 symphonies" by Saint-Saëns, when there are actually five. An un-numbered Symphony in A, and the "Urbs Roma" Symphony in F.
And they are both marvelous works! I had the pleasure of hearing Martinon conduct the Symphony in A in 1976, live, and it was a delight. It was about this time that a graduate student at U. of Connecticut (I think his name is David Fallon... all this is from memory!) did his thesis on the Symphonies of Saint-Saens and copied out the manuscripts of the Symphony in A and the Urbs Roma Symphony, which then could be published. This lead to Martinon's ground breaking recordings of all 5 symphonies. That set should be in the collection of every music lover. A source of joy! thank you.
Why isn't The Piano Quartet in B flat major, Op. 41 talked much about? This is a discovery for me. I think it's excellent. Today I received this disc of the work:
[asin]B00B28D5QA[/asin]
Just like Fauré, Saint-Saëns is a brilliant French composers who is somewhat overlooked apart from a selection of well-known works.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 17, 2016, 07:50:44 AM
Why isn't The Piano Quartet in B flat major, Op. 41 talked much about? This is a discovery for me. I think it's excellent. Today I received this disc of the work:
[asin]B00B28D5QA[/asin]
Just like Fauré, Saint-Saëns is a brilliant French composers who is somewhat overlooked apart from a selection of well-known works.
I mentioned the Piano quartet opus. 41 above; and this recording is excellent of all 3 of these superb works. The Piano Quartet is a GREAT work- should be played all the time in chamber concerts. I have no idea why it is not better known- also interesting in that there is no real slow movement- the first movement is probably the slowest paced of the four movements. Completely agree -this is a beautiful work!. Also the 2 string quartets - which were left on the shelf for decades- I think that the first recordings of the string quartets were made in the 1980's. I suspect that Saint-Saens's music is not taught in our music conservatories. thank you for posting this.
Just to add a few more interesting works to Saint-Saens list. He actually composed five symphonies. two with no number. One of them was written at age 15 in school. I have the set of five conducted by Jean Martinis on EMI Angel. Also, I have a ballet named Javotte and the second work on this Marco Polo CD is entitled Payrsatis, another ballet. Very pleasant to listen to but by no means great music. It is amazing to me that he wrote so much music and so little is actually played today and much of it unknown.
Might as well report it here too: I finished listening, for the first time, a hidden gem by Saint-Saëns, Le timbre d'argent.
Saint Saens is certainly a wonderfull composer. His symphonies ( I have the Martinon) are of course a mixed bag, the 3rd very famous, the 2nd quite good, the others written, when he was very young. The piano concertoes are splendid, they are more mature works than the symphonies. I have them twice, Hough and Roge, and prefer Hough. I have also a wonderfull CD "Complete works for Cello and Orchestra". This is a CD from Hänssler, Johannes Moser is playing, I would strongly recommend this CD, although his first cello concerto is of course the most famous piece, all other pieces on this CD are worthwhile to listen to. Another wunderfull CD are the works for violin and piano with Wallin/ Pöntinen ( CPO) which I enjoyed also a lot. Of course I know also the Carnival of the Animals. I know also some organ pieces, very good. And the 3rd violin concerto is also very good.
Glad you approve of his work.
I was recently listening to all the Saint-Saëns piano concertos (with Rogé/Dutoit on Decca)- they're such delightful, engaging, and surprising works from beginning to end. I think they're all pretty much of equal quality, though no. 2 is the most often-played by a considerable margin, nos. 4 and 5 are played every once in a while, and nos. 1 and 3 are hardly played at all. Here are my impressions of each:
1: An absolutely delightful work. The outer movements are bright and energetic (with a memorable recurring horn-call motor in the first), but the slow movement is strikingly inward and eschews the sentimentality that one would expect from a slow movement of the time.
2: A grand, Bachian first movement, a skittering scherzo (with its catchy cello tune), and a headstrong finale.
3: Like the 1st, a very underrated work. The first movement has a motto theme that recalls that of Schubert's "Great" C major symphony. The slow movement is profoundly poetic, and the thrilling finale starts off with a startlingly chromatic introduction.
4: Like the 2nd, an ingeniously structured work. The second (final) movement has that hymn-like "big tune" that I can never get out of my head after I listen.
5: The first movement is decidedly restrained, but the extraordinary second movement is anything but. From its gripping, rhythmically complex opening through the lovely "Nubian love song" second theme, this movement is a masterpiece in itself. The energetic third movement is hugely entertaining.
Who else here loves Saint-Saëns' PCs?
Quote from: kyjo on October 25, 2017, 10:28:04 AM
Who else here loves Saint-Saëns' PCs?
I do, all of them - but the 'Egyptian' (No. 5) always held a special place for me.
Quote from: kyjo on October 25, 2017, 10:28:04 AM
4: The second (final) movement has that hymn-like "big tune" that I can never get out of my head after I listen.
I love it.
Sarge
Listened to the String Quartet No.2 the other day. Mmm... it's quite light. I'm not sure how fond I was of it. It was definitely the shred of the ghost of the Romantic Era, a pale, non-offensive, yet somewhat bland perfection that just didn't grab me.
I'm checking out his final works, the three sonatas, for clarinet, oboe, and bassoon. Already, I found nothing much that I could bite onto in the Bassoon Sonata, amiable as it is. Perhaps I look for things in SS that just aren't there?
I did enjoy the Violin Sonata No.1 in d-minor, though... Midori?...
Aaaand, this time around I snoozed at the 'Danse Macabre', OH NOES!!...
What are your Top SS Guilty Pleasures?? (haven't listened to the Sym3 in decades, forget what it sounds like)
Quote from: snyprrr on October 25, 2017, 02:13:24 PM
What are your Top SS Guilty Pleasures??
Nothing to be guilty of. I like his music unashamedly. He's a superb composer.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2017, 02:17:30 PM
Nothing to be guilty of. I like his music unashamedly. He's a superb composer.
+1 He's an unfairly maligned composer and his music has more depth than it's given credit for IMO.
Quote from: kyjo on October 25, 2017, 02:58:38 PM
+1 He's an unfairly maligned composer and his music has more depth than it's given credit for IMO.
+2 He's simply remarkable. Love this man's music!
If I still listened to post-1830 music, I would definitely go back and listen to my rather extensive Saint-Saëns collection again. I have nearly all his chamber music, and quite a lot of orchestral too. Unlike Snipps, I found his (rarely recorded) string quartets to be quite interesting, surprisingly dissonant for a composer who was normally mainly consonant. Oh well, different tastes. :)
8)
He is underrated and famous mostly for a very odd selection of his vast oeuvre. Obviously he was extremely gifted and put out a lot of stuff, so there are quite a few works that are somewhat fluffy.
-The violin sonatas are both very good; the first is more famous (and together with Franck's and Fauré's a possible inspiration for the famous Proust reference).
- The 3rd violin concerto is also justly famous (the others are shorter pieces but also worth listening to).
-A very funny piece that sounds almost neoclassical is the sextet with trumpet
Quote from: Jo498 on October 26, 2017, 01:57:28 AM
He is underrated and famous mostly for a very odd selection of his vast oeuvre.
Totally agree - it seems strange to me that he is only known through a select few works when there are so many gems scattered throughout his output (it's a similar situation with Dvorak). Take his two cello concerti for instance - the first is nearly ubiquitous and rather overplayed, while the equally fine (if not finer) second is hardly played at all. Another work of his I think is quite underrated is his Piano Trio no. 2, which has the most magical opening and gorgeous (thought all too brief) slow movement. Also, his Cello Sonata no. 1 is a wonderful, passionate work which is hardly ever played.
Quote from: snyprrr on October 25, 2017, 02:13:24 PM
Listened to the String Quartet No.2 the other day. Mmm... it's quite light. I'm not sure how fond I was of it. It was definitely the shred of the ghost of the Romantic Era, a pale, non-offensive, yet somewhat bland perfection that just didn't grab me.
I'm checking out his final works, the three sonatas, for clarinet, oboe, and bassoon. Already, I found nothing much that I could bite onto in the Bassoon Sonata, amiable as it is. Perhaps I look for things in SS that just aren't there?
I did enjoy the Violin Sonata No.1 in d-minor, though... Midori?...
Aaaand, this time around I snoozed at the 'Danse Macabre', OH NOES!!...
What are your Top SS Guilty Pleasures?? (haven't listened to the Sym3 in decades, forget what it sounds like)
Here is a very fine indeed performance of the 3rd symphony.
[flash-425,350]https://www.youtube.com/v/DiqXgZVHePw[/flash]
But you have hit on something I think that those who do not care, or actual detractors, do need to know:
There is not one scrap of music -- from the fluffiest
Wedding Cake, Caprice-Valse to his more/most earnest (
Requiem (yes, he wrote one),
Symphony no. 3) penned by Saint-Saëns that is not
impeccably crafted.Wedding Cake, Caprice-Valsehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiqXgZVHePw
Requiemhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDJhAtt7oBA
While, as the drift of your feelings towards nearly any or all his music, "That and the fare gets you on the bus."
My only problem with Saint-Saëns is that sometimes he tries to be serious and it doesn't work that well for me usually. I quite like a lot of the fluff and some of the larger works (the Piano Concerto No.5 is great for instance) but for whatever reason it's hard for me to take e.g. the Symphony No.3 or the sacred music seriously. All the chamber music I've heard is quite nice though.
I've also been listening to his Piano Concerti. I listened to the Roge/Dutoit recording of the first, and now the Ciccolini/Baudo recording of the second. In the latter work it is remarkable how the almost Bachian opening flows into a 19th century concerto. Works of very high quality, and elegance, refreshingly lacking the overwrought quality that screams "profundity" in the warhorses of the time. I'm enjoying it a lot.
Quote from: Scarpia on October 30, 2017, 10:20:20 PM
I've also been listening to his Piano Concerti. I listened to the Roge/Dutoit recording of the first, and now the Ciccolini/Baudo recording of the second. In the latter work it is remarkable how the almost Bachian opening flows into a 19th century concerto. Works of very high quality, and elegance, refreshingly lacking the overwrought quality that screams "profundity" in the warhorses of the time. I'm enjoying it a lot.
Indeed. His piano concerti are quite fine. They're certainly much more to my tastes than Liszt's, Tchaikovsky's, or Brahms' PCs, but these particular concerti do have their own merits.
Listened to the second piano concerto again. An interesting structure, where the first movement has the general form and function of a traditional concerto opening allegro, but with the somber mood and tempo of a slow middle movement. This allows the second movement to be a scherzo, followed by the expected finale. A finely crafted and moving work. Ciccolini gives a fine performance.
I know S-S 2 preceded it by decades, but it's a similar structure in some ways to Shostakovich's 6th Symphony. Slow movt. first, then a scherzo, then an even faster finale.
I listened to the 'Egyptian' PC... mm,... ok,... I was actually expecting just a little bit more, but, let me just say that I do not dislike CSS; this onr all the e didn't hit like I thought, after all the raves on this Page.
Maybe I need to find that Cello Concerto that'spaired with the Schumann...
...also didn't really care for the 'Carnivalof the Animals"
wow, my typings bad :(
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2017, 05:31:46 PM
If I still listened to post-1830 music, I would definitely go back and listen to my rather extensive Saint-Saëns collection again. I have nearly all his chamber music, and quite a lot of orchestral too. Unlike Snipps, I found his (rarely recorded) string quartets to be quite interesting, surprisingly dissonant for a composer who was normally mainly consonant. Oh well, different tastes. :)
8)
I'm curious as to your opinion here, based on your statement above, and our discussions in the HIP SQ arena, and such,... I feel that these SQs are like the "End of the End", almost in a 'Death in Venice kind of way... but it's hard for me to find any irony. I only listened to No.2 the other day.
Do you know where generally you found this surprising dissonance?Because I was like, whew, I thought there was gonna be at least a glimmer of dissonance but was struck by how typical everything sounded, as if no time has passed between Saint-Saens's childhood and his old maturity. I'm not saying I thought it sounded like old granny music, buuuut...... I heard no WWI echoes...
'll chk No.1 again...
WHAT ARE HIS THREE PERFECT CHAMBER WORKS?
Clarinet Sonata
I had commented on how I didn't find the typeof modern yearing in SS's other two Late Sonatas (oboe and bassoon), but, then when I reacquainted myself this Clarinet Sonata, from the very first phrase I knew I had arrived at the MostPerfectWork...
I mean, wait,.. where have I heard this melody before? Certainly it is more famous than this Sonata??
Anyhow, here we have the SS that I love, the one of the Cello Concerto,...
seeking some other Masterpieces now...
Quote from: snyprrr on November 06, 2017, 06:59:23 AM
Anyhow, here we have the SS that I love, the one of the Cello Concerto,...
He wrote two cello concerti! :) I find the second to be very much the equal of the much better-known first.
Saint Saens can be uneven
I love Samson et Dalila but have been disapointed in the recently released Proserpine.
This recent CD of orchestral songs is very good
[asin]B01NALS9W0[/asin]
Since I see this interesting thread, I would like to say something. Have you ever listened to La Foi - Tableaux symphoniques? A work virtually unknown to many.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51xhT2OoUcL._SY300_.jpg)
It's one of the most beautiful works created by this gentleman (in fact, he composed a lot of gorgeous music ;D ). I highlight the Andantino (II mov.): it's a piece truly subtle, refined and bucolic.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on November 06, 2017, 08:08:27 PM
Since I see this interesting thread, I would like to say something. Have you ever listened to La Foi - Tableaux symphoniques? A work virtually unknown to many.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51xhT2OoUcL._SY300_.jpg)
It's one of the most beautiful works created by this gentleman (in fact, he composed a lot of gorgeous music ;D ). I highlight the Andantino (II mov.): it's a piece truly subtle, refined and bucolic.
Nope, I haven't heard it - thanks for bringing it to my attention!
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on November 06, 2017, 08:08:27 PM
Since I see this interesting thread, I would like to say something. Have you ever listened to La Foi - Tableaux symphoniques? A work virtually unknown to many.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51xhT2OoUcL._SY300_.jpg)
It's one of the most beautiful works created by this gentleman (in fact, he composed a lot of gorgeous music ;D ). I highlight the Andantino (II mov.): it's a piece truly subtle, refined and bucolic.
Agreed, as I agree with many here: Saint-Saëns is an uneven composer, not always inspired. But there are dozens of gems among his large oeuvre - and it's a quiet pleasure to 'discover' them for yourself. Another very late (1919) composition that I love is the
Morceau de concert (in reality a concerto, or perhaps concertino) for harp and orchestra. Here in its finest performance:
https://www.youtube.com/v/2drxEhBWlW4
Quote from: snyprrr on November 06, 2017, 06:59:23 AM
Clarinet Sonata
I had commented on how I didn't find the typeof modern yearing in SS's other two Late Sonatas (oboe and bassoon), but, then when I reacquainted myself this Clarinet Sonata, from the very first phrase I knew I had arrived at the MostPerfectWork...
I mean, wait,.. where have I heard this melody before? Certainly it is more famous than this Sonata??
Anyhow, here we have the SS that I love, the one of the Cello Concerto,...
seeking some other Masterpieces now...
Revisited this sonata (at least the first movement) and it is truly a masterpiece.
Quote from: Christo on November 06, 2017, 09:33:53 PM
Agreed, as I agree with many here: Saint-Saëns is an uneven composer, not always inspired. But there are dozens of gems among his large oeuvre - and it's a quiet pleasure to 'discover' them for yourself. Another very late (1919) composition that I love is the Morceau de concert (in reality a concerto, or perhaps concertino) for harp and orchestra. Here in its finest performance:
https://www.youtube.com/v/2drxEhBWlW4
It's correct. The
Morceau de concert for harp and orchestra is one of those gems. His other concertante works for several instruments represent a delightful show of craftsmanship and beauty.
Quote from: kyjo on November 06, 2017, 09:18:31 PM
Nope, I haven't heard it - thanks for bringing it to my attention!
I hope you enjoy it!
Un petit bijou!
https://www.youtube.com/v/wDO6EnqDIhM
and (Victor Hugo!) in a more (melo)dramatic way...
https://www.youtube.com/v/54I5d4a3QdM
Lyrics: https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/la-fianc-e-du-timbalier-the-cymbaleer-s-bride/
The timpanist becomes a "cymbaleer"!
(https://pmcdn.priceminister.com/photo/Mercier-Jacques-Saint-Saens-Le-Deluge-La-Fiancee-Du-Timbalier-La-Nuit-CD-Album-844676718_L.jpg)
And, finaly, it would be great to have at last a recording of "Le feu céleste", Saint Saëns cantata (soprano, narrator, chorus, organ & orchestra) for the 1900 Exposition Universelle. An hommage to electricity!
read the letter SS wrote to Paul Taffanel :
https://books.google.be/books?id=jm922PExav4C&pg=PT332&lpg=PT332&dq=Saint+saens+%2B+Le+feu+celeste&source=bl&ots=smOx8MEnoN&sig=GO8BDnUM3aeeAbLVGIq3T89BCbM&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibvtyfqrHXAhXMzaQKHbFMCwk4ChDoAQg5MAM#v=onepage&q=Saint%20saens%20%2B%20Le%20feu%20celeste&f=false
P.
Quote from: BachQ on April 12, 2007, 07:10:43 AM
Michel's enthusiastic embrace of Saint-Saëns First Piano Concerto (I don't know it nearly as well as the beloved Second Piano Concerto):
What great stuff Saint-Saen's Piano Concerto No.1 in D Major is!
I am certain it is under-rated. To me, it sounds like a mixture of Tchaikovskian orchestral melodies, and Beethovian rhythm, structure and dynamics (one thinks of his 2nd and 3rd). The oscillation between moments of solo or moderately accompanied virtuosity and the orchestra, with abundant clarity and precision, remind me structurally of Beethoven's 3rd. In short, there is what there is in all Beethoven's piano concertos: a magnificent balance between piano and orchestra.
It also seems ludicrous to suggest, as some critics have, that Saint-Saens lacked profundity and so on. Not only, of course, is it completely idiotic to suggest that good music must have profundity, but I think it is completely false if one looks at the 2nd movement of the 1st Piano Concerto with its slow, tired negativity that echoes Beethoven - this time the 2nd movement of the 7th Sonata. Certainly, I think this slow movement is less brilliant than Beethoven's majestic subtly - some may even call it insincere - but the emotional depth is, I think, still there loud and clear.
Even taken as a whole, this D Major concerto somewhat mirrors Beethoven's 3rd (and arguably the 5th) as it has a very dominant theme in the first movement, outward looking and at times celebratory, followed by a far more insular and intimate second movement, ended by a real memorable and indulgent blast. I am sure I once read that Saint-Saens is sometimes compared to Beethoven, and this early PC certainly illustrates that argument well.
One other observation is the use of staccato in places in the final movement that I haven't previously noticed (repeated also in his PC2 first movement rather significantly). Saint-Saens injects a Prokofieven jovialness into this movement, but is then peculiarly - though interestingly - contrasted by an almost hideously dreamy and repetitive piano melody reminiscent of a later Rachmaninov (like the ghastly Rach 3!). But what this does show, I think, is that Saint-Saens was a marvellously talented composer; echoing the past whilst predating that which followed, and writing music of subtlely, depth and sophistication that as a compliment is so ofen denied. This first piano concerto, whatever is weaknesses, is a piece of music underappreciated by, it seems, a really great number of classical music "fans".
What do you think of this Piano Concerto, or his other piano concertos, or his other work in general?
I completely agree with you that the First is a masterpiece (aren't all of the Saint-Saens Piano concertos?) and the criticism that Saint-Saens is "rarely profound" is also erroneous. It seem that weight and ponderousness is equated with "profundity" - Saint-Saens's extraordinary sense of clarity and line is thus slighted. There are 3 superb recordings of the First Piano Concerto, as part of complete sets: Collard/Previn, Roge/Dutroit, Malikova/Sanderling. Having been collecting and studying the music of Saint-Saens for over 50 years now, I find him to be a great composer- love nearly every piece of his- often struck by the suppleness of his harmonies and the subtlety of his development. All of the concerti and symphonies [5]- also not to be missed is his chamber music, the Requiem [particularly the Mercier recording] and the opera Henry VIII- we need a first rate recording of Henry VIII still. And his songs! His legacy is so vast- I could go on and on!!
Quote from: mjmosca on January 22, 2018, 03:34:43 AM
I completely agree with you that the First is a masterpiece (aren't all of the Saint-Saens Piano concertos?) and the criticism that Saint-Saens is "rarely profound" is also erroneous. It seem that weight and ponderousness is equated with "profundity" - Saint-Saens's extraordinary sense of clarity and line is thus slighted. There are 3 superb recordings of the First Piano Concerto, as part of complete sets: Collard/Previn, Roge/Dutroit, Malikova/Sanderling. Having been collecting and studying the music of Saint-Saens for over 50 years now, I find him to be a great composer- love nearly every piece of his- often struck by the suppleness of his harmonies and the subtlety of his development. All of the concerti and symphonies [5]- also not to be missed is his chamber music, the Requiem [particularly the Mercier recording] and the opera Henry VIII- we need a first rate recording of Henry VIII still. And his songs! His legacy is so vast- I could go on and on!!
Wholeheartedly agree with this!
I really enjoy a good bit of Saint-Saëns' music. I love the cycle of PCs, Symphony No. 3, "Organ", Le carnaval des animaux (which S-S only wanted to be performed privately), and Danse macabre. I need to revisit his chamber works as I have many of the Hyperion recordings. Also, the other concerti for violin and cello are in need of revisiting as well (as it's been too long).
Listened today to Saint-Saens Piano Concerto No 3. In its form, it could be characterized as an absolutely standard 19th century piano concerto - not a work that paves a new path, but full of beautiful melodies, compelling harmonies and orchestration, and perfectly managed structure.
I listened to Ciccolini/Baudo on EMI. It is an analog recording from the mid-70's. Not the sort of recording you would use to demonstrate your stereo system, but an honest concert hall perspective which is satisfying. Ciccolini gives a non-flashy but masterful performance. Baudo is a conductor whose skill is often overlooked. He does a superb job here. He accomplishes the difficult task of keeping the trombones in control is their dramatic passages in this work.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on February 18, 2018, 04:54:32 PM
Listened today to Saint-Saens Piano Concerto No 3. In its form, it could be characterized as an absolutely standard 19th century piano concerto - not a work that paves a new path, but full of beautiful melodies, compelling harmonies and orchestration, and perfectly managed structure.
I listened to Ciccolini/Baudo on EMI. It is an analog recording from the mid-70's. Not the sort of recording you would use to demonstrate your stereo system, but an honest concert hall perspective which is satisfying. Ciccolini gives a non-flashy but masterful performance. Baudo is a conductor whose skill is often overlooked. He does a superb job here. He accomplishes the difficult task of keeping the trombones in control is their dramatic passages in this work.
Yes, it's a great work and I like it every bit as much as the more famous 2nd and 5th concerti. The gorgeous opening theme always reminds me of the opening of Schubert's "Great" C major symphony. The slow movement is beautifully nocturnal and the finale is really rousing, with a harmonically adventurous opening.
On second listen, my impression is concerned. The first movement has a very compelling theme and structure, and there are wonderful orchestral effects, such as several passages where a dramatic climax leads to the full string section playing an ostinato figure in unison. The finale is likewise compelling with a very distinctive main theme. The slow movement is the one part that doesn't quite come together for me, beautiful passage work for piano, but I don't quite grasp the trajectory of the music. Maybe it is to be understood as a sort of interlude.
Very happy to read your second thoughts! As in the case of other great composers, many of Saint-Saens' works demand more than one hearing to begin to grasp the quality of the work. You can spend a lifetime with Saint-Saens and he is always worthy of your attention.
As to the oft repeated criticism that he is "uneven"- there is no "even" composer. I have experienced some really boring times with Mozart even, yet no one would call Mozart uneven!
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 23, 2018, 04:53:25 AM
I really enjoy a good bit of Saint-Saëns' music. I love the cycle of PCs, Symphony No. 3, "Organ", Le carnaval des animaux (which S-S only wanted to be performed privately), and Danse macabre. I need to revisit his chamber works as I have many of the Hyperion recordings. Also, the other concerti for violin and cello are in need of revisiting as well (as it's been too long).
Hello Mirror Image- just a note, the Hyperion 2 disk set of Saint-Saens' Chamber works with the Nash Ensemble has 2 very disappointing performances: those of the Piano Quartet and the Piano Quintet. In both cases, they sound like rehearsal run-throughs, as if concepts of the musicians were not fully formed; bland and colorless. Not at all up to the Nash Ensembles usual standards. There are far better performances. The Piano Quartet op 41. is very well performed by Prometheus Piano Quartet and there is a new, superb performance of the Piano Quintet along with the great String Quartet Number 1, with the Quartetto di Cremona. best wishes for great listening!
Quote from: mjmosca on October 12, 2019, 09:37:09 AM
Hello Mirror Image- just a note, the Hyperion 2 disk set of Saint-Saens' Chamber works with the Nash Ensemble has 2 very disappointing performances: those of the Piano Quartet and the Piano Quintet. In both cases, they sound like rehearsal run-throughs, as if concepts of the musicians were not fully formed; bland and colorless. Not at all up to the Nash Ensembles usual standards. There are far better performances. The Piano Quartet op 41. is very well performed by Prometheus Piano Quartet and there is a new, superb performance of the Piano Quintet along with the great String Quartet Number 1, with the Quartetto di Cremona. best wishes for great listening!
I think that part of the "problem" for Saint-Saens is that his music is actually very hard to play well - literally technically demanding. As you allude to in your comment about the Nash Ensemble recording above. So for players/recording companies you have the double whammy of music that will take a long time to prepare properly but does not have the USP/cache of being by an unknown composer etc. There will be the vast bulk of CM listeners who know the name of Saint-Saens but will look no further than the Swan, Danse Macabre or the Organ Symphony.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2019, 11:58:32 PM
I think that part of the "problem" for Saint-Saens is that his music is actually very hard to play well - literally technically demanding. As you allude to in your comment about the Nash Ensemble recording above. So for players/recording companies you have the double whammy of music that will take a long time to prepare properly but does not have the USP/cache of being by an unknown composer etc. There will be the vast bulk of CM listeners who know the name of Saint-Saens but will look no further than the Swan, Danse Macabre or the Organ Symphony.
You are so right! the technical demands are great- some years ago, I tried to follow along with the score for the Piano Quartet and got lost many times!! And the fact that Saint-Saens is not unknown, indeed he is famous, but only for a few compositions makes him less of a discovery, even though so many works are not often played. The ever increasing technical mastery as time goes on may make SS less daunting.... but of course technical mastery does not always translate into music making- that elusive goal! thank you!
Hallowe'en approaches.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1s28gmLicc
Yesterday was his birthday. I was travelling and not able to post.
Romain Rolland put it this way:
The significance of Saint-Saens in art is a double one, for one must judge him from the inside as well as the outside of France. He stands for something exceptional in French music, something which was almost unique until lately: that is, a great classical spirit and a fine breadth of musical culture—German culture, we must say, since the foundations of all modern art rests on the German classics. French music of the 19th century is rich in clever artists, imaginative writers of melody, and skilful dramatists; but it is poor in true musicians and in good solid workmanship. Apart from two or three splendid exceptions, our composers have too much the character of gifted amateurs, who compose music as a pastime and regard it not as a special form of thought but as a sort of dress for literary ideas. Our musical education is superficial: it may be got for a few years in a formal way at a conservatory, but it is not within the reach of all; the child does not breathe music as, in a way, he breathes the atmosphere of literature and oratory; and although nearly everyone in France has an instinctive feeling for beautiful writing, only a very few people care for beautiful music. From this arise the common faults and failings in our music. It has remained a luxiurious art; it has not become, like German music, the poetical expression of the people's thought.
Happy birthday, Camille.
Tonight I (re)discovered his Fantaisie for violin and harp, op. 124 (1907) in this wonderful live performance:
https://youtu.be/6JdVBULKACg (https://youtu.be/6JdVBULKACg)
This work confirms why Saint-Saëns is one of my favorite composers. This is 14 minutes of sheer bliss. There's nothing academic, predictable, derivative, banal, or saccharine at all about this music (or most of S-S' music, for that matter). It's just beautiful music, superbly crafted and with just enough depth to make it truly satisfying. Truly soul-warming stuff. :)
Yes, he knew his stuff. If more composers would polish their craft and go over their modern pieces with care and an unwavering editing knife to excise the glouff, it would be a better world in 21st century music.
Quote from: kyjo on December 27, 2020, 08:02:34 PM
Tonight I (re)discovered his Fantaisie for violin and harp, op. 124 (1907) in this wonderful live performance:
https://youtu.be/6JdVBULKACg (https://youtu.be/6JdVBULKACg)
This work confirms why Saint-Saëns is one of my favorite composers. This is 14 minutes of sheer bliss. There's nothing academic, predictable, derivative, banal, or saccharine at all about this music (or most of S-S' music, for that matter). It's just beautiful music, superbly crafted and with just enough depth to make it truly satisfying. Truly soul-warming stuff. :)
I'll have to give this work a listen as it came on this recording I just received last week:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91h6pRkxxOL._SL1500_.jpg)
I'm also rather taken with much of Saint-Saëns' music.
Quote from: kyjo on December 27, 2020, 08:02:34 PMwonderful ... sheer bliss ... just beautiful ... superbly crafted ... truly satisfying ... Truly soul-warming
Point taken ;)
Quote from: Christo on December 28, 2020, 08:44:52 AM
Point taken ;)
:P Yeah, he could've easily narrowed down his post to a few words and left it at that. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 28, 2020, 08:48:21 AM
:P Yeah, he could've easily narrowed down his post to a few words and left it at that. :)
Oh, no! I love his enthusiasm & feel inspired by posts like this. :)
Quote from: Christo on December 28, 2020, 09:15:53 AM
Oh, no! I love his enthusiasm & feel inspired by posts like this. :)
Ah, it felt like your post was being sarcastic. It's difficult to read into what many people write over the internet sometimes.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 28, 2020, 09:27:47 AM
Ah, it felt like your post was being sarcastic. It's difficult to read into what many people write over the internet sometimes.
I hate sarcasm, can hardly tolerate irony either. Good music deserves better. :)
Quote from: Christo on December 28, 2020, 09:43:54 AM
I hate sarcasm, can hardly tolerate irony either. Good music deserves better. :)
Well, I do like sarcasm (especially if used to comedic effect), but not when music is concerned.
The Morceau for harp and orchestra is also a fine piece. A more debugged, subtle, non-sugary Saint-Saëns. In fact, all of his Morceau-concertante-like works are pretty good: the one for horn, the one for violin, and even works that don't bear this name also suit here.
This month's free download from Naxos is a treat for Saint-Saens fans. Three interesting and not obvious discs;
Marlia Klegel's 2 Cello Concerti plus some nice fillers
a recital of Saint-Saens organ music - all interesting and little known
The Piano Quintet and Piano Quartet - I plumped for this disc as I don't know the repertoire at all so I'm looking forward to hearing it.
I've said it before - its well-worth signing up for the free Naxos monthly newsletter even if its onlyy for the downloads. usually something interesting and the FLAC download option appeals to me as well
Thank you for the heads-up, RS.
I have downloaded the cello concertos as I do not have them in my Saint-Saens collection.
I very much enjoyed Hurwitz's review of the new Warner Saint-Saëns edition:
https://youtu.be/tFEbUuvLE6I
Despite the fact that I don't always agree with him and some of his videos are kinda annoying, videos like these are why I'm pretty firmly in the pro-Hurwitz camp. He hits the nail on the head about how underrated Saint-Saëns is, mainly because he wasn't typically a "heavy/profound" composer like his Germanic contemporaries and because he became wrongly known as a "fusty conservative" because he lived until 1921.
Quote from: kyjo on October 26, 2021, 09:58:19 AM
I very much enjoyed Hurwitz's review of the new Warner Saint-Saëns edition:
https://youtu.be/tFEbUuvLE6I
Despite the fact that I don't always agree with him and some of his videos are kinda annoying, videos like these are why I'm pretty firmly in the pro-Hurwitz camp. He hits the nail on the head about how underrated Saint-Saëns is, mainly because he wasn't typically a "heavy/profound" composer like his Germanic contemporaries and because he became wrongly known as a "fusty conservative" because he lived until 1921.
My problem with his videos is just a general lack of creativity and they're boring to watch. You've seen one, you've seen them all. They're just him sitting in front of a camera complaining about the British musical establishment's bias towards their homegrown talent or simply running his mouth about topics that anyone who has any knowledge about could talk about. I'm more interested in a work's history than the 20 versions of the work he owns that he feels are "the best".
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 26, 2021, 11:59:36 AM
My problem with his videos is just a general lack of creativity and they're boring to watch. You've seen one, you've seen them all. They're just him sitting in front of a camera complaining about the British musical establishment's bias towards their homegrown talent or simply running his mouth about topics that anyone who has any knowledge about could talk about. I'm more interested in a work's history than the 20 versions of the work he owns that he feels are "the best".
I agree with you in that the videos which discuss his ideal
recordings are less interesting and often rather biased. But the videos where he discusses certain
repertoire in depth can be quite interesting and even illuminating. His videos on Dvorak and Haydn, particularly, can contain some really interesting insights about the music itself rather than just recordings of it. IMO, there's something refreshing about hearing someone actually
talk about music rather than just reading a review- it feels much more personal.
I think I have almost all the Saint-Saens I want. That is all of the concertos, incl. I think most of the shorter concertante pieces, the numbered symphonies, most of the symphonic poems, Samson & Dalila, some choral music (le deluge etc.), most of the chamber music. It's only about 20-25 discs despite some doubling in the concertos, so I must be missing still a fair bit but I don't think I need much more.
I am missing piano music but I was just not sufficiently interested to get that voxBox with all? of it. I wonder if there are good 1-2 disc anthologies of St-S piano music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 26, 2021, 11:59:36 AM
My problem with his videos is just a general lack of creativity and they're boring to watch. You've seen one, you've seen them all. They're just him sitting in front of a camera complaining about the British musical establishment's bias towards their homegrown talent or simply running his mouth about topics that anyone who has any knowledge about could talk about. I'm more interested in a work's history than the 20 versions of the work he owns that he feels are "the best".
+1!
Quote from: kyjo on October 27, 2021, 09:16:38 AM
I agree with you in that the videos which discuss his ideal recordings are less interesting and often rather biased. But the videos where he discusses certain repertoire in depth can be quite interesting and even illuminating. His videos on Dvorak and Haydn, particularly, can contain some really interesting insights about the music itself rather than just recordings of it. IMO, there's something refreshing about hearing someone actually talk about music rather than just reading a review- it feels much more personal.
I just find the whole format of him sitting in front of a camera to be boring. His insights aren't any more special than members of this very forum --- Luke comes to mind here. He could astound one with what he knew about a given composer. Also, the fact that Luke is a composer himself gave him a special insight.
Edit: To be even more blunt, I prefer to read what
you think about music than what he thinks.
I treat them like podcasts. Put them on, change the tab, answer emails, clean the bathroom, organize the laundry. That's exactly what podcasts are for.
I do not like that every time Hurwitz is mentioned in any context, there has to be this long conversation about the guy himself. Reverting to the subject at hand - not quite convinced to buy Warner's CSS big box yet, since I have a whole lot of the music (much of it in Warner/Erato's performances). But the presentation is so gorgeous! And the historical rarities are enticing. Gotta sit down and really compare what's in the box and what's in my collection. And, yes, gotta watch the DH video for his customary detailed breakdown disc by disc.
Which painter are they showcasing on all the cover wallets this time?
Quote from: Brian on October 27, 2021, 05:25:01 PMWhich painter are they showcasing on all the cover wallets this time?
It looks like the artwork of Camille Pissarro on all of the sleeves.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 27, 2021, 11:20:35 AM
.
I am missing piano music but I was just not sufficiently interested to get that voxBox with all? of it. I wonder if there are good 1-2 disc anthologies of St-S piano music.
There doesn't seem to be anything other than a few pieces in recital albums and a few recorded by Chamayou as filler on his recording of two of the concertos. Burleson is doing/has done a complete traversal on Piano Classics. There's a ton of sheet music listed so it might be simpler to play it yourself.
The Vox box may in fact be your best option. Amazon US prices are cheap enough. It doesn't include the solo version of Africa, although Burleson does.
As to the music itself, that struck me as being perfect salon music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 27, 2021, 05:40:22 PM
It looks like the artwork of Camille Pissarro on all of the sleeves.
Thanks! Now I just gotta figure out the Bartok covers ;D
Burleson's piano series is hampered by very close acoustics, like a college practice room. I am a big fan of this late romantic salon repertoire, love Saint-Saens and Moszkowski and all those fluffball piano pieces, but Burleson comes across a little bit sober because the sound doesn't have a lot of color or dynamic range.
Quote from: Brian on October 27, 2021, 06:34:42 PMThanks! Now I just gotta figure out the Bartok covers ;D
I'll need to have a gander at those covers as I don't own that set either (I own a lot of recordings from it however).
From the looks of it, it appears that there's an admixture of different artists in the Bartok set. I can definitely tell that one of the paintings from the box set's pack shot is J. M. W. Turner:
(https://wmg.jp/uploads/pictures/3650/content_0190296729317_Bela_Bartok_The_Hungarian_Soul_3D.jpg)
Oh yeah, that is a mixture of different people. Odd!
Quote from: JBS on October 27, 2021, 06:30:38 PM
There doesn't seem to be anything other than a few pieces in recital albums and a few recorded by Chamayou as filler on his recording of two of the concertos.
I'm fairly sure I have this album (https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67037). Salon music is accurate, but it's charming and fairly eclectic, as I recall.
Quote from: amw on October 27, 2021, 07:23:29 PM
I'm fairly sure I have this album (https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67037). Salon music is accurate, but it's charming and fairly eclectic, as I recall.
I definitely have it and agree.
Strange that it should be me who mentions this here on GMG (as I'm not that much of a fan of the composer, and my first forays into the recent Warner box really didn't generate in me an urge to explore his work in more depth —for the time being, at least ;)—), but Camille Saint-Saëns in Algiers 100 years ago today.
I just wanted to say that I've been enjoying the Saint-Saëns Warner box set immensely, but I've also been listening to some other recordings I already had in my collection and enjoying ever second of it. Maybe I'm not being critical enough but I honestly haven't heard a work from Saint-Saëns that I didn't at least enjoy on some level. A master craftsman, but it should be said there is emotion in his music and even though it doesn't bludgeon you over the head, it's still there and in such a beautifully clear way. I mentioned in the "2022 Exploration" thread that Saint-Saëns was going to be a composer I was going to do a deeper dive into and, so far, I haven't regretted any time spent with his music.
I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed this "Listening Guide" to Le Carnaval des animaux. Highly recommended if you love this work as much as I do.
https://www.youtube.com/v/7z2gbvDTekc
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 09, 2022, 07:58:31 PM
I just wanted to say that I've been enjoying the Saint-Saëns Warner box set immensely, but I've also been listening to some other recordings I already had in my collection and enjoying ever second of it. Maybe I'm not being critical enough but I honestly haven't heard a work from Saint-Saëns that I didn't at least enjoy on some level. A master craftsman, but it should be said there is emotion in his music and even though it doesn't bludgeon you over the head, it's still there and in such a beautifully clear way. I mentioned in the "2022 Exploration" thread that Saint-Saëns was going to be a composer I was going to do a deeper dive into and, so far, I haven't regretted any time spent with his music.
Saint-Saëns is like Martinu, where much of his output manages to entertain you and provide pleasure to you and you seem not to tire of!
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on January 10, 2022, 02:35:50 PM
Saint-Saëns is like Martinu, where much of his output manages to entertain you and provide pleasure to you and you seem not to tire of!
I can certainly see this, Cesar. Hours and hours of pleasure. Poulenc is like this for me, too.
I think Camille Saint-Saëns is one of those composers who have been a bit overlooked compared to the quality of their output. Whenever someone starts to listen to his works more seriously he/she is oftentimes up for a pleasant surprise. :)
Camilla Saint-Saëns was probably the biggest musical prodigy of all times. I think he was an extremely intelligent individual and composing music for him was rather easy compared to other composers. I believe the lack of ambition on surface level in his music is due to this, but it is also deceptive. I think the "ambition" in his music is hidden deeper on higher levels of musical meaning, something that surely would have been interesting for a person with super-high intelligence. Mozart's (another prodigy) art is similar in this sense: Easy to listen to, but astonishingly sophisticated when analysed deeper.
The music of Saint-Saëns gives me this feeling of "really smart things" happening under the simple surface.
Quote from: 71 dB on January 11, 2022, 01:00:58 AM
I think Camilla Saint-Saëns is one of those composers who have been a bit overlooked compared to the quality of their output. Whenever someone starts to listen to his works more seriously he/she is oftentimes up for a pleasant surprise. :)
Camilla Saint-Saëns was probably the biggest musical prodigy of all times. I think he was an extremely intelligent individual and composing music for him was rather easy compared to other composers. I believe the lack of ambition on surface level in his music is due to this, but it is also deceptive. I think the "ambition" in his music is hidden deeper on higher levels of musical meaning, something that surely would have been interesting for a person with super-high intelligence. Mozart's (another prodigy) art is similar in this sense: Easy to listen to, but astonishingly sophisticated when analysed deeper.
The music of Saint-Saëns gives me this feeling of "really smart things" happening under the simple surface.
Yes, I think the melodic, harmonic and rhythmic sophistication of Saint-Saëns' music doesn't always register for many listeners. They can't look beyond the surface sheen. It seems the most common reaction is "Oh, that's charming" or something along these lines.
I'm not one to promote a David Hurwitz video, but I have to say he was spot-on with his remarks about Saint-Saëns, especially in the opening couple of minutes or so:
https://www.youtube.com/v/tFEbUuvLE6I
I, too, believe he has been unfairly dismissed or ignored based some idiotic preconceived notions that actually have nothing to do with the music itself.
A nice little video:
https://www.youtube.com/v/eSb0ZY7CxBw
I thought the comments he made that behind every innovative composer there stands a direct influence on them: behind Schoenberg, there's Wagner, behind Stravinsky there's Rimsky-Korsakov and behind Ravel there's Saint-Saëns.
To further the Ravel and Saint-Saëns connection, I found this article interesting:
https://www.wrti.org/wrti-spotlight/2017-05-06/poulenc-couldnt-believe-what-ravel-said-about-saint-saens (https://www.wrti.org/wrti-spotlight/2017-05-06/poulenc-couldnt-believe-what-ravel-said-about-saint-saens)
The mentions of Saint-Saens have made me curious enough to look at my not-too-small holdings of Saint-Saens recordings, and I find I have all of the significant works. One question is the rarely performed concerti. Every famous violinist records the third concerto and every famous cellist records the first. The other two violin concerti and the second cello concerto only seem to appear in "complete" recording projects. Has anyone heard these works?
Quote from: Spotted Horses on January 14, 2022, 07:39:09 AM
The mentions of Saint-Saens have made me curious enough to look at my not-too-small holdings of Saint-Saens recordings, and I find I have all of the significant works. One question is the rarely performed concerti. Every famous violinist records the third concerto and every famous cellist records the first. The other two violin concerti and the second cello concerto only seem to appear in "complete" recording projects. Has anyone heard these works?
I have. There's a reason why they play only the 3rd VC and the 1st CC. :laugh:
I think the 2nd cello concerto is underrated but the other violin concerti (one more like a concert piece) are very understandably way behind the b minor concerto. I'd probably say that the 3rd violin concerto is his most significant concerto overall.
Which leads to the non-organ symphonies. I have all of the numbered symphonies. But there is a Urb Roma and La Foi. I have the latter on a recording by Michel Plasson on EMI and even listened to it 20 years or so ago when it came out, but I have no memory of it. I discovered that I haven't ripped it yet and that means I would have to sort through some boxes to see if I still have the disc.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51xhT2OoUcL.jpg)
Quote from: 71 dB on January 11, 2022, 01:00:58 AM
I think Camilla Saint-Saëns is one of those composers who have been a bit overlooked compared to the quality of their output. Whenever someone starts to listen to his works more seriously he/she is oftentimes up for a pleasant surprise. :)
Camilla Saint-Saëns was probably the biggest musical prodigy of all times. I think he was an extremely intelligent individual and composing music for him was rather easy compared to other composers. I believe the lack of ambition on surface level in his music is due to this, but it is also deceptive. I think the "ambition" in his music is hidden deeper on higher levels of musical meaning, something that surely would have been interesting for a person with super-high intelligence. Mozart's (another prodigy) art is similar in this sense: Easy to listen to, but astonishingly sophisticated when analysed deeper.
The music of Saint-Saëns gives me this feeling of "really smart things" happening under the simple surface.
Very insightful comments, Poju. I agree with all that you say!
Quote from: Florestan on January 14, 2022, 08:27:48 AM
I have. There's a reason why they play only the 3rd VC and the 1st CC. :laugh:
Eh, I don't really agree. The first two VCs and the 2nd CC contain some lovely music, above all the sublime slow movement of the 2nd CC. Best of all, though, are his 5 exhilarating, delicious, sparkling, and characterful piano concerti. Every one of them is a treasurable gem
par excellence! Not to mention his numerous shorter pieces for soloist(s) and orchestra, like
Rhapsodie d'Auvergne, Africa, La muse et la poète, Introduction et rondo capriccioso, Havanaise, etc....
Quote from: kyjo on January 14, 2022, 09:28:14 AM
Best of all, though, are his 5 exhilarating, delicious, sparkling, and characterful piano concerti. Every one of them is a treasurable gem par excellence!
Wholeheartedly agreed.
The first violin concerto is only 12 minutes long!
Quote from: Brian on January 14, 2022, 04:51:23 PM
The first violin concerto is only 12 minutes long!
And it's a very good 12 minutes.
I was just listening to it and several of the other works for violin and orchestra from the Warner set.
Which Amazon now proudly lists as:
#1 New Release in Traditional Folk
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2022, 07:08:23 AM
I'm not one to promote a David Hurwitz video, but...
Your post encouraged me to watch several David Hurwitz. ;D I find him fun to listen to. His mannerisms are to funny and I like his way to "telling the World how things are". I think I am similar in that sense. What annoys about him to me is his assumption that other people, normal people have access to OOP recordings. He is David Hurwitz! Of course HE has all classical music recordings ever, but I have to actually buy my classical music from whatever sources. It is so annoying to watch his videos "THE BEST this or that" and then find out buying that damn disc is IMPOSSIBLE for mortals! Of course one has to pay 500 dollars for a recording from an obscure label after David Hurwitz has praised it to the heavens 10 years after it went OOP.
I like Saint-Saëns a lot, but I have always been lazy with his music. I don't have that much of it and I don't listen to it often. Then again these days it is difficult for me to enjoy classical music properly. There is not the kind of connection I had 25-20 years ago. These days the best connection with music is with other kind of music. The way I see the World has changed and I have become 1000 times more cynical which makes it challenging to "take in" the beauty of classical music the way I did years ago...
Quote from: kyjo on January 14, 2022, 09:23:13 AM
Very insightful comments, Poju. I agree with all that you say!
Well thanks! 0:)
Are these the Hoelscher recordings?
Although the most famous Saint-Saens concerti are on a fairly large scale, overall they show that "symphonic" concerti were far from the norm in the 19th century and what we'd rather call concert piece very common.
In the midst of the current love-in for Saint-Saens could I point folk who are not adverse to downloads to this set;
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61WlkBsrxRL._SS500_.jpg)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004GBI06U/ref=sr_1_1?crid=34PJJ3LKIMWBY&keywords=99+most+essential+saint-saens&qid=1642241043&sprefix=99+most+essential+saint-saens%2Caps%2C65&sr=8-1
Featuring awful artwork and of course no liner notes BUT hidden beneath this unpromising facade is a superb collection of excellent performances. Once you're past a serviceable "Carnival of the Animals" the bulk of the performances are from the BIS catalogue and include 4 of the 5 symphonies (No.1 is missing), all 3 violin concerti and both cello concerti, 2 piano concerti, a raft of other concertante works, some genuinely rare orchestral music, a disc's worth of solo organ music and several other treasures too. OK the Amazon download rate is low (annoyingly so) but great value at £7.99 and useful for the regular Saint-Saens collector as well as the curious......
Quote from: Jo498 on January 15, 2022, 12:07:20 AM
Are these the Hoelscher recordings?
Although the most famous Saint-Saens concerti are on a fairly large scale, overall they show that "symphonic" concerti were far from the norm in the 19th century and what we'd rather call concert piece very common.
The Warner set uses the Hoelscher recordings.
Quote from: 71 dB on January 14, 2022, 06:32:07 PM
Your post encouraged me to watch several David Hurwitz. ;D I find him fun to listen to. His mannerisms are to funny and I like his way to "telling the World how things are". I think I am similar in that sense. What annoys about him to me is his assumption that other people, normal people have access to OOP recordings. He is David Hurwitz! Of course HE has all classical music recordings ever, but I have to actually buy my classical music from whatever sources. It is so annoying to watch his videos "THE BEST this or that" and then find out buying that damn disc is IMPOSSIBLE for mortals! Of course one has to pay 500 dollars for a recording from an obscure label after David Hurwitz has praised it to the heavens 10 years after it went OOP.
I'm not a Hurwitz fan, but he was spot-on in much of the opening commentary in his Saint-Saëns video. A lot of times I find Saint-Saëns to be unfairly maligned by listeners. The reality is most listeners don't have a damn clue about his oeuvre beyond the popular works. Have they ever heard his
Piano Trio No. 2 or the
La muse et le poète? Seriously doubtful.
As for your point about OOP CDs, well, if a recording isn't available for purchase, I've learned to do without. Pretty simple.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 15, 2022, 05:36:36 AM
I'm not Hurwitz fan, but his Saint-Saëns was spot-on in much of the opening commentary. A lot of times I find Saint-Saëns to be unfairly maligned by listeners. The reality is most listeners don't have a damn clue about his oeuvre beyond the popular works. Have they ever heard his Piano Trio No. 2 or the La muse et le poète? Seriously doubtful.
Hurwitz talks about the music history and how it is wrong in its way of favoring Germanic composers. Saint-Saëns is French so of course in music history his place is a 2nd ot 3rd rate composer, but this is wrong, because he was a first rate composer. I agree a lot with this notion of music history being wrong and I have wrote about that on this forum, especially long ago when this forum had not yet broken my spirit and self-confidence.
I have had the Saint-Saëns' Piano Trios for over 20 years (Naxos 8.550935), I have not listened to it for over 10 years! Why not? Because I have been listening to other music! However
La muse et le poète I have not heard. I only have about a dozen CDs of his music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 15, 2022, 05:36:36 AMAs for your point about OOP CDs, well, if a recording isn't available for purchase, I've learned to do without. Pretty simple.
Well, there is not much choice but to be without, but it is annoying to learn how your beloved Naxos disc is actually mediocre and far from the performances I SHOULD have bought years ago when available. It triggers the long mental process of
1) Forgetting what David Hurwitz said.
2) Re-assuring myself I actually enjoy the Naxos disc despite of what David Hurwitz said.
So, knowing what the best performances are is only beneficial if you actually can purchase them. If you can't, the knowledge is actually
negative!
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2022, 06:52:52 AM
So, knowing what the best performances are is only beneficial if you actually can purchase them. If you can't, the knowledge is actually negative!
Seems like a streaming subscription would be the perfect thing for you... :)
Very affordable and access to an almost unlimited supply of music.
Quote from: Que on January 15, 2022, 07:00:38 AM
Seems like a streaming subscription would be the perfect thing for you... :)
Very affordable and access to an almost unlimited supply of music.
Yep, DH recommended an out of print Shostakovich Ninth Symphony (Kosler and the Czech Philharmonic, for the especially good woodwind and trumpet solo players) and even though there aren't many copies of the CD, I quickly found and enjoyed it on a streaming service.
Quote from: Que on January 15, 2022, 07:00:38 AM
Seems like a streaming subscription would be the perfect thing for you... :)
Very affordable and access to an almost unlimited supply of music.
Streaming is not owning. I can hear a work on radio, but that doesn't mean I own the music. I have just experienced it once. It is "musical tourism." I can listen to a lot of praised performances online (Youtube, Spotify etc.) but that is NOT owning. When I have the CD I "own" the music, it is officially part of my life like my clothes and coffee mug.
The insanity of streaming is there is no limits except time. With streaming one can listen to 1000 hours of new music every day. There is no curation and limiting of anything into digestible chunks of music. Also, I don't like the dependence on streaming services. Each to their own. I am an old school guy collecting CDs for music and Blu-rays for movies. Those are the formats of
my choice. Yes,
my choice. I want to choose myself instead of big companies choosing for me again and again every 10 years or so how to consume music.
I don't need a streaming service. I need to
revisit my CD collection, because hundreds and hundreds of CDs haven't got a spin for 10 years! :o
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2022, 07:29:57 AM
Streaming is not owning. I can hear a work on radio, but that doesn't mean I own the music. I have just experienced it once. It is "musical tourism." I can listen to a lot of praised performances online (Youtube, Spotify etc.) but that is NOT owning. When I have the CD I "own" the music, it is officially part of my life like my clothes and coffee mug.
The insanity of streaming is there is no limits except time. With streaming one can listen to 1000 hours of new music every day. There is no curation and limiting of anything into digestible chunks of music. Also, I don't like the dependence on streaming services. Each to their own. I am an old school guy collecting CDs for music and Blu-rays for movies. Those are the formats of my choice. Yes, my choice. I want to choose myself instead of big companies choosing for me again and again every 10 years or so how to consume music.
I don't need a streaming service. I need to revisit my CD collection, because hundreds and hundreds of CDs haven't got a spin for 10 years! :o
Well, I see reason whatsoever to complain about purchasing restrictions then. GO and listen to these hundreds of CDs! ;)
Quote from: Que on January 15, 2022, 09:35:53 AM
Well, I see reason whatsoever to complain about purchasing restrictions then. GO and listen to these hundreds of CDs! ;)
What I complained about was David Hurwitz having the attitude of assuming it is easy for anyone to purchase OOP discs. That's what most annoys me about him. Otherwise I enjoy his enthusiam.
I have been revisiting my CD collection. The problem is connecting with classical music properly as I mentioned.
Quote from: kyjo on January 14, 2022, 09:28:14 AM
Eh, I don't really agree. The first two VCs and the 2nd CC contain some lovely music, above all the sublime slow movement of the 2nd CC. Best of all, though, are his 5 exhilarating, delicious, sparkling, and characterful piano concerti. Every one of them is a treasurable gem par excellence! Not to mention his numerous shorter pieces for soloist(s) and orchestra, like Rhapsodie d'Auvergne, Africa, La muse et la poète, Introduction et rondo capriccioso, Havanaise, etc....
Those mini-concertinos of works are bom-bons in the good sense of the word. Realy fine compositions. There is one for harp and orchestra. Just charming, carefree and romantic music.
Quote from: kyjo on January 14, 2022, 09:23:13 AM
Very insightful comments, Poju. I agree with all that you say!
Except for that it is Camill
e, not a more-female
Camilla. :-[ :P
The rest, yes, +1
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on January 15, 2022, 03:52:36 PM
Except for that it is Camille, not a more-female Camilla. :-[ :P
The rest, yes, +1
Thanks for pointing out my typo. I know how his name is written, of course. I don't know how that now fixed typo happened. ???
I just wanted to let everyone know that earlier this month I received the replacement disc (Disc 15) for the Saint-Saëns Edition set on Warner. I received a nice note from Warner along with it that read:
Dear John,
Here is the replacement CD for the Saint-Saëns boxset as promised. I hope the mail to the US doesn't take too long.
All best,
Susanne
I had been in correspondence with this Warner representative for several months prior to receiving this disc. Now my set is glitch free. 8)
Nice! I had to do the same thing with a Hyperion cd and they mailed me the replacement and I received it in under a week.
Quote from: DavidW on May 27, 2022, 06:56:11 AM
Nice! I had to do the same thing with a Hyperion cd and they mailed me the replacement and I received it in under a week.
Yeah, I had to wait awhile from Warner, but at least it came. That's great about Hyperion. A fine label.
Quote from: DavidW on May 27, 2022, 06:56:11 AM
Nice! I had to do the same thing with a Hyperion cd and they mailed me the replacement and I received it in under a week.
If this is referring to the disc bronzing I didn't realize they still had that replacement program running?
The Saint-Saëns Warner box will definitely make my best of 2022 8)
Quote from: hvbias on May 27, 2022, 10:20:18 AM
The Saint-Saëns Warner box will definitely make my best of 2022 8)
Mine, too plus some other Saint-Saëns recordings that I bought this year.
Quote from: hvbias on May 27, 2022, 10:20:18 AM
If this is referring to the disc bronzing I didn't realize they still had that replacement program running?
It is not in reference to bronzing. They had a defective batch of Mendelssohn PTs/Florestan Trio so that there was audio dropouts.
But I think the replacements for the bronzing is still going on because not that long ago Gurn had a bronzed cd replaced. They couldn't replace it with a cd because it was oop but they sent him a digital download.
Quote from: DavidW on May 27, 2022, 12:41:29 PM
It is not in reference to bronzing. They had a defective batch of Mendelssohn PTs/Florestan Trio so that there was audio dropouts.
But I think the replacements for the bronzing is still going on because not that long ago Gurn had a bronzed cd replaced. They couldn't replace it with a cd because it was oop but they sent him a digital download.
Good to know, thank you. And I should hear those Mendelssohn Piano Trios from Florestan Trio.
Quote from: DavidW on May 27, 2022, 12:41:29 PM
It is not in reference to bronzing. They had a defective batch of Mendelssohn PTs/Florestan Trio so that there was audio dropouts.
Do you recall which tracks of the FLorestan/Mendelssohn disc had problems?
Quote from: Jo498 on May 28, 2022, 12:08:28 AM
Do you recall which tracks of the FLorestan/Mendelssohn disc had problems?
It was on most of the tracks.
Thanks, then I am pretty sure that my disc is o.k. It's been a while I played it but such a problem on several tracks I would have noticed.
Currently finishing up selective listening to my 16 or so discs of Saint-Saëns - the Piano Concertos (PCs) & Symphonies might need some culling and replacements. As to the PCs, I currently own the two sets in the top row below, i.e. Malikova and Hough - Malikova is favored but I could exchange Hough (reading through this thread this morning, he seems not to be as lauded as his reviews have been?). Now, I had Roge but culled him out years ago - two options that are fairly recent are Alexandre Kantorow & Louis Lortie; the former has gotten some great comments but both are pretty much full price at the moment - any thoughts on their performances?
As to the Symphonies, I've had the Jean Martinon double jewel box for a while, enjoy the performances, and intend to keep - comments in this thread seem to support that view; now, one can always have extra recordings of No. 3 w/ organ - I have had this BIS DePriest CD for ages - listened to it this afternoon, pleased but is there a better one? Any comments appreciated, especially regarding the two boxes shown - thanks. Dave :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/619uMkBOZmL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51pJPxZgZbL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71mqyjcDIXL._SL1417_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/717AJ5pLUfL._SL1200_.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51NDHMRDMQL.jpg) (https://bis.se/shop/17115/art15/h3715/4443715-origpic-6586df.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81N6WsUmInS._SL1488_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71u5nu4+QXL._SL1200_.jpg)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 07, 2022, 10:27:27 AM
Currently finishing up selective listening to my 16 or so discs of Saint-Saëns - the Piano Concertos (PCs) & Symphonies might need some culling and replacements. As to the PCs, I currently own the two sets in the top row below, i.e. Malikova and Hough - Malikova is favored but I could exchange Hough (reading through this thread this morning, he seems not to be as lauded as his reviews have been?). Now, I had Roge but culled him out years ago - two options that are fairly recent are Alexandre Kantorow & Louis Lortie; the former has gotten some great comments but both are pretty much full price at the moment - any thoughts on their performances?
As to the Symphonies, I've had the Jean Martinon double jewel box for a while, enjoy the performances, and intend to keep - comments in this thread seem to support that view; now, one can always have extra recordings of No. 3 w/ organ - I have had this BIS DePriest CD for ages - listened to it this afternoon, pleased but is there a better one? Any comments appreciated, especially regarding the two boxes shown - thanks. Dave :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/619uMkBOZmL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51pJPxZgZbL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71mqyjcDIXL._SL1417_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/717AJ5pLUfL._SL1200_.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51NDHMRDMQL.jpg) (https://bis.se/shop/17115/art15/h3715/4443715-origpic-6586df.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81N6WsUmInS._SL1488_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71u5nu4+QXL._SL1200_.jpg)
Hello again, Dave. ;) Where do I even begin? I say this because Saint-Saëns is such a favorite of mine. I guess I'll begin by saying the new symphony set with Mǎcelaru and the Orchestre National de France is now my reference set. He's clearly better than Martinon who was fine for the time, but now sounds rather dated and lacking nuance. Don't get me wrong, Martinon was a fine conductor, but he's not better than Mǎcelaru. This new set is an essential acquisition, IMHO. You will not be disappointed in any way. Of course, we already discussed the PCs and you've got the best overall set with Malikova/Sanderling, but the Collard/Previn and Kantorow/Kantorow are tied in second place. I love these two cycles immensely as well. What recordings do you own of the other concerti like the
Cello Concertos and
Violin Concertos? Also, what do you own of the chamber music aside from that
Piano Trios recording with The Florestan Trio? There is so music great chamber music from Saint-Saëns available. I highly recommend these two chamber set:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71uvHoN3BYL._SL1200_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81s+le9RMfL._SL1500_.jpg)
I have never heard the two unnumbered symphonies and coul agree that 1+2 are probably a bit unfairly overlooked but the focus on the "organ symphony" seems pretty justified. One or two recordings of the rest seems plenty to me.
As for very good recordings of #3 in very good (although not the most recent) sound, I'd point out Barenboim (1970s) and Levine (1980s digital), both on DG.
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 07, 2022, 10:27:27 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/619uMkBOZmL.jpg)
I have that set, it is great! I also have this recording which I don't know if anyone has discussed on this forum before, but I really like it:
(https://d10nlcvbt35ur0.cloudfront.net/content/uploads/2015/11/02235329/RR-136_Cover.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 07, 2022, 10:59:24 AM
Hello again, Dave. ;) Where do I even begin? I say this because Saint-Saëns is such a favorite of mine. I guess I'll begin by saying the new symphony set with Mǎcelaru and the Orchestre National de France is now my reference set. He's clearly better than Martinon who was fine for the time, but now sounds rather dated and lacking nuance. Don't get me wrong, Martinon was a fine conductor, but he's not better than Mǎcelaru. This new set is an essential acquisition, IMHO. You will not be disappointed in any way. Of course, we already discussed the PCs and you've got the best overall set with Malikova/Sanderling, but the Collard/Previn and Kantorow/Kantorow are tied in second place. I love these two cycles immensely as well. What recordings do you own of the other concerti like the Cello Concertos and Violin Concertos? Also, what do you own of the chamber music aside from that Piano Trios recording with The Florestan Trio? There is so music great chamber music from Saint-Saëns available. I highly recommend these two chamber set:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71uvHoN3BYL._SL1200_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81s+le9RMfL._SL1500_.jpg)
Hi
John - thanks for responding (again) - below is my
S-S Database (click to enlarge) - I actually have close to 20 CDs collected and culled over decades and pretty much what I want of this composer, so my goal would be replace rather than add to the collection (space being a BIG issue for me) - as to the
Piano Concertos, Kantorow as a Hough replacement interests me most, but I need to find the 'right price'.
Concerning the
Symphonies, there are a lot of 'new' options, i.e. the ones I showed in my previous post & also the elder Kantorow - I looked up some reviews on Mǎcelaru (attached if interested for you and of course others considering these works) and the Fanfare reviewer had some complaints (which sounded minor if trivial to me), another review was much more positive - but how does Mǎcelaru compare to Kantorow and the Naxos offering?
The 'wind chamber set' piqued my interest (but would be a two disc addition?) - compared w/ my 2-CD Nash Ensemble set, there is some overlap in the shorter pieces (a few exceptions in longer works like the septet) - also well reviewed (comments in the attachment) but not cheap on Amazon USA - will look elsewhere - I could see adding a couple discs to Camille's collection.
Finally, at the top of the database is an eclectic disc dating back 50 years, so called of 'Best of Saint-Saens' - collects a bunch of pieces together not present on other CDs owned - not sure if there is a 'similar' recording w/ updated sound - the Amazonians seem to love this CD. I know I could duplicate the works on the single disc but may take at least two? Dave :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51TFHNPXYAL.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-7NV6CP3/0/ec99163f/O/SaintSaens_BestOF.png)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 07, 2022, 01:11:31 PM
Hi John - thanks for responding (again) - below is my S-S Database (click to enlarge) - I actually have close to 20 CDs collected and culled over decades and pretty much what I want of this composer, so my goal would be replace rather than add to the collection (space being a BIG issue for me) - as to the Piano Concertos, Kantorow as a Hough replacement interests me most, but I need to find the 'right price'.
Concerning the Symphonies, there are a lot of 'new' options, i.e. the ones I showed in my previous post & also the elder Kantorow - I looked up some reviews on Mǎcelaru (attached if interested for you and of course others considering these works) and the Fanfare reviewer had some complaints (which sounded minor if trivial to me), another review was much more positive - but how does Mǎcelaru compare to Kantorow and the Naxos offering?
The 'wind chamber set' piqued my interest (but would be a two disc addition?) - compared w/ my 2-CD Nash Ensemble set, there is some overlap in the shorter pieces (a few exceptions in longer works like the septet) - also well reviewed (comments in the attachment) but not cheap on Amazon USA - will look elsewhere - I could see adding a couple discs to Camille's collection.
Finally, at the top of the database is an eclectic disc dating back 50 years, so called of 'Best of Saint-Saens' - collects a bunch of pieces together not present on other CDs owned - not sure if there is a 'similar' recording w/ updated sound - the Amazonians seem to love this CD. I know I could duplicate the works on the single disc but may take at least two? Dave :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51TFHNPXYAL.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-7NV6CP3/0/ec99163f/O/SaintSaens_BestOF.png)
It looks like you've got a pretty good collection of Saint-Saëns recordings, Dave. My suggestion is to give the two sets I mentioned my previous post a listen through Spotify or wherever you stream and decide if they're right for you. Ignore any of the negative reviews for that Mǎcelaru symphony cycle. It is outstanding. Since you don't listen to opera, song cycles, etc., I won't mention how great I think Saint-Saëns is in these particular genres. ;)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 07, 2022, 01:11:31 PM
Concerning the Symphonies, there are a lot of 'new' options, i.e. the ones I showed in my previous post & also the elder Kantorow - I looked up some reviews on Mǎcelaru (attached if interested for you and of course others considering these works) and the Fanfare reviewer had some complaints (which sounded minor if trivial to me), another review was much more positive - but how does Mǎcelaru compare to Kantorow and the Naxos offering?
I have only heard a little of the Naxos cycle and none of the Macelaru, but the JJ Kantorow organ symphony is a miss - muffled bass sound so you frequently cannot hear the organ.
I have enjoyed both the A. Kantorow and Lortie piano concerto sets a LOT. It's hard to choose between them, especially as they are quite similar in their approach: virtuosic, bold, flamboyant, fast, fun. Some reviewers have found Lortie the most muscular of all, but I have not compared too closely. They might be so good you decide based on couplings, packaging, art, etc. ;D
The Nash double is about as good as it gets for the mixed chamber music. For a good (incl. sound) disc with the symphonic poems there is Dutoit/Decca. The 3rd violin concerto has also been recorded by many famous violinist (the others far less).
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 07, 2022, 02:46:32 PM
It looks like you've got a pretty good collection of Saint-Saëns recordings, Dave. My suggestion is to give the two sets I mentioned my previous post a listen through Spotify or wherever you stream and decide if they're right for you. Ignore any of the negative reviews for that Mǎcelaru symphony cycle. It is outstanding. Since you don't listen to opera, song cycles, etc., I won't mention how great I think Saint-Saëns is in these particular genres. ;)
Quote from: Brian on June 07, 2022, 02:53:07 PM
I have only heard a little of the Naxos cycle and none of the Macelaru, but the JJ Kantorow organ symphony is a miss - muffled bass sound so you frequently cannot hear the organ.
I have enjoyed both the A. Kantorow and Lortie piano concerto sets a LOT. It's hard to choose between them, especially as they are quite similar in their approach: virtuosic, bold, flamboyant, fast, fun. Some reviewers have found Lortie the most muscular of all, but I have not compared too closely. They might be so good you decide based on couplings, packaging, art, etc. ;D
Thanks
John &
Brian for your helpful comments - I listened to the Kantorows in the Piano Concertos on Spotify and enjoyed (likely more that Hough) - probably should also do the same w/ Lortie but the pricing is steep although PrestoMusic has a 20% off on the BIS discs. As to the Symphonies, I'm reading some negative comments w/ all of the newer releases at least in the Fanfare Archives; Marc Soustrot and JJ Kantorow seemed to have received the most complaints, but Mǎcelaru does not completely get rave reviews - think I need to put a playlist together of what I can find on Spotify, like back-to-back movements and take a listen before discarding Martinon which I've enjoyed for ages.
As to piano, the single Piers Lane CD of Etudes is enough for me (although I know there are 4-disc sets out there); and
John knows that I'm not into opera or songs in foreign languages from other times - :laugh: Just too much else to listen to that I much prefer. Thanks again guys - Dave :)
I quite like this Organ Symphony with Pittsburgh/Maazel. The tempo is slow, but the organ is mighty.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81IyyP0N5DL._SL400_.jpg)
Quote from: relm1 on June 09, 2022, 05:53:58 AM
I quite like this Organ Symphony with Pittsburgh/Maazel. The tempo is slow, but the organ is mighty.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81IyyP0N5DL._SL1500_.jpg)
I like this one too! :)
I usually don't mind if the organ has to be recorded separately, but organist Anthony Newman was recorded at St. Ignatius Loyola in New York
3 years after the orchestra set down their portion. The delay seems unusual.
VS
Quote from: VonStupp on June 09, 2022, 06:04:04 AM
I like this one too! :)
I usually don't mind if the organ has to be recorded separately, but organist Anthony Newman was recorded at St. Ignatius Loyola in New York 3 years after the orchestra set down their portion. The delay seems unusual.
VS
Yes, I thought it was strange that the organ wasn't part of the performance. BUT, as someone who was heard dozens of recordings, I still find this the finest interpretation of the work regardless of that fact. I'm ok with this because it's not that different from nearly any recording being an edit of multiple performances frequently on different occasions and sometimes venues too.
Don't know if this has been mentioned but the Utah Symphony has a three CD set of the symphonies with some other works which is very good.
Quote from: Olias on June 12, 2022, 07:44:18 PM
Don't know if this has been mentioned but the Utah Symphony has a three CD set of the symphonies with some other works which is very good.
The Thierry Fischer cycle is pretty good, but not in the same league as Mǎcelaru on Warner or the older Martinon cycle. Just my two cents.
Recommendations for recordings of Samson et Dalila?
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 09, 2023, 04:33:34 AMRecommendations for recordings of Samson et Dalila?
The full opera or just the Bacchanale?
Quote from: relm1 on May 09, 2023, 05:17:39 AMThe full opera or just the Bacchanale?
Hearing the Bacchanale was what prompted me to ask this question, but I am open to exploring recordings of either the full opera or just the bacchanale.
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 09, 2023, 12:38:36 PMHearing the Bacchanale was what prompted me to ask this question, but I am open to exploring recordings of either the full opera or just the bacchanale.
This is a reminder to me to open the wrapping on this thrift shop CD I got a few weeks ago for $1. It includes the Bacchanale (which I have never heard). Nor have I ever heard the 3rd symphony in full, believe it or not.
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzMTI5NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjQ3NzQwNjh9)
Quote from: Franco_Manitobain on May 09, 2023, 12:42:20 PMThis is a reminder to me to open the wrapping on this thrift shop CD I got a few weeks ago for $1. It includes the Bacchanale (which I have never heard). Nor have I ever heard the 3rd symphony in full, believe it or not.
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzMTI5NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjQ3NzQwNjh9)
It's one of my favorite symphonies by anyone! I don't have that recording, but I'm sure it's excellent. Remind me, is that with the Chicago or the OdP?
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 09, 2023, 01:55:37 PMIt's one of my favorite symphonies by anyone! I don't have that recording, but I'm sure it's excellent. Remind me, is that with the Chicago or the OdP?
Chicago for the symphony, and OdP for the rest.
I didn't click with the organ symphony until I heard it live. Now I love it!
Quote from: Franco_Manitobain on May 09, 2023, 12:42:20 PMThis is a reminder to me to open the wrapping on this thrift shop CD I got a few weeks ago for $1. It includes the Bacchanale (which I have never heard). Nor have I ever heard the 3rd symphony in full, believe it or not.
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzMTI5NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjQ3NzQwNjh9)
My eyesight isn't great, but what orchestra is this with? Just helps me know the era.
Quote from: relm1 on May 09, 2023, 04:40:51 PMMy eyesight isn't great, but what orchestra is this with? Just helps me know the era.
It is Chicago SO for the symphony and Orchestre de Paris for the remainder.
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 09, 2023, 12:38:36 PMHearing the Bacchanale was what prompted me to ask this question, but I am open to exploring recordings of either the full opera or just the bacchanale.
Back in the mid 1980's when I played for the Opera House in Parma Italy we performed Samson & Delilah. Its a wonderfully theatrical piece. For sure following in the (then) tradition of French Grand Opera with big set pieces/spectacular sets/opportunities for the corps de ballet to have a run-out (hence the bacchanale). The orchestration is brilliant - sitting "inside" a work like this you really get to appreciate the little telling details. But the big thing for me then was the singing of the two title roles. Not at all what you'd expect in terms of idiomatic/Francophone voices but instead two big old-school Italian powerhouses - Carlo Cossutta and Fiorenze Cossotto. Cossutta's voice was certainly quite worn by then but he was a proper presence. Cossotto as just extraordinary. Delilah has 2 'big' arias in the work; "Printemps qui commence" and the gorgeous "Mon cœur s'ouvre à ta voix". Cossotto was too old, wrong voice - pretty much wrong in every way in fact but when she sang those you believed her absolutely. It was an example of a singer by sheer force of will and personality dominating a 2000 seat opera house with their utter charisma. One of my most treasured professional musical experiences. So yeah, I like Samson & Delilah.....
The problem with a memory like that is no version matches up to it (totally getting that the memory is probably very rose-tinted!!). For quite a few years the Barenboim OdP was the 'main' version but Domingo isn't right for me but then neither is Carerras for Davis. In fact there is no modern version with truly idiomatic principals so really take your choice!
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 09, 2023, 04:33:34 AMRecommendations for recordings of Samson et Dalila?
Ralph Moore has a survey here (PDF):
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/May/Saint-Saens_Samson_survey.pdf
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 09, 2023, 01:55:37 PMIt includes the Bacchanale (which I have never heard)
You just may have heard it many times (since 1877...) without knowing, but disguised as (my guesses):
arranged for brass band/winds & percussion
pianosolo, high school ensembles, organ, clarinet choirs...
mandolin & guitar orchestra
as filmscore : accompaniment to: arabian market, belly dancers, snake charmers, exotic festival...strip acts? ;D
harmonium and "Salonmusik", on cruiseships, cinema orchestras and cinema organs in the twenties and thirties
buskers....
These are totally hilarious....
Quote from: DavidW on May 09, 2023, 03:23:53 PMI didn't click with the organ symphony until I heard it live. Now I love it!
Yeah, it's quite a spectacle.
Henry VIII, resurrected in Brussels
Opera Saint saens (https://www.lamonnaiedemunt.be/en/program/2316-henry-viii)
Why does the 2nd Cello Concerto usually get completely ignored in box sets? They'll have all five piano concertos, all three violin concertos but only the 1st Cello Concerto. Why? I assume there actually *is* a 2nd Cello Concerto. There has to be, otherwise why would the other one always have "No. 1" added to its title? You would just call it the Cello Concerto if that was the only one that got out into the world.
There is a 2nd cello concerto op. 119 d minor and is has been recorded, it's just far less popular, a bit like the violin concertos except the #3 b minor.
QuoteWhy does the 2nd Cello Concerto usually get completely ignored in box sets? They'll have all five piano concertos, all three violin concertos but only the 1st Cello Concerto. Why? I assume there actually *is* a 2nd Cello Concerto. There has to be, otherwise why would the other one always have "No. 1" added to its title? You would just call it the Cello Concerto if that was the only one that got out into the world.
from Wiki;
Saint-Saëns' Cello Concerto No. 2 in D minor, Op. 119, is written in two movements, like his Fourth Piano Concerto. It was composed in 1902 and is dedicated to the Dutch cellist, Joseph Hollman, who gave the first performance on February 5, 1905 in Paris.[1] The Second Concerto is much more virtuosic than the First, but does not possess the thematic inventiveness and harmonic intricacy of the First.[2]
"In many respects, it's a finer creation than its famous predecessor in A minor Op. 33; larger in overall concept (it comprises two main sections, each subdivided into two movements) and arguably of greater thematic nobility, the concerto remains largely unknown."[3]
Music
Allegro moderato e maestoso - Andante sostenuto
Allegro non troppo - Cadenza - Molto allegro
The first part of the first movement is in ternary form. The second part is a prayer, in E-flat major, also in ternary form. The first movement ends with a scale in artificial harmonics, like the scale in the First Cello Concerto. The second movement is a moto perpetuo in G minor. It ends abruptly in a cadenza, followed by a major-key recapitulation of the first movement, and a coda.
Along with the solo cello, the concerto is scored for an orchestra consisting of 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 4 horns, 2 trumpets, timpani and strings.
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 28, 2023, 11:49:50 PMWhy does the 2nd Cello Concerto usually get completely ignored in box sets? They'll have all five piano concertos, all three violin concertos but only the 1st Cello Concerto. Why? I assume there actually *is* a 2nd Cello Concerto. There has to be, otherwise why would the other one always have "No. 1" added to its title? You would just call it the Cello Concerto if that was the only one that got out into the world.
Yes, there is indeed a 2nd Cello Concerto, and a wonderful work it is too! Its slow movement ranks among Camille's loveliest creations. No idea why it's often ignored in box sets, but fortunately multiple fine recordings of it exist, and I've noticed that it's starting to be taken up more frequently by cello soloists.
This thread inspired me to listen to the 2nd Cello Concerto. The recording I have is Naxos 8.553039.
Saint-Saëns is one of those fine composers who have been ignored in many ways for some reason...
It's because it has been so rarely recorded. For example, Warner didn't put it in their box because they have never made a recording - they would have to license one of the Naxos recordings, for example.
Now. Why is it so rarely recorded? I have no idea. It's so lovely!
I listened to all three Violin Concerti back to back this afternoon. I usually go for the Third when I listen to one but I decided to do No. 1, and that was so short I just didn't stop the disc when No. 2 followed immediately afterward.
The Organ Symphony was an answer (which I got right ;D ) to a question on 'University Challenge' on (UK) TV this evening. All the music questions featured works with prominent parts for organ.
Going to bump this as I'm gonna be listening to *a lot* of S-S in the coming days, as highlighted in Recent Purchases thread.
Huge fan of Cyprés et lauriers for organ and orchestra! Very epic and ceremonial! The Urbs Roma symphony has a bit less going for it but it was still a pleasant listen. Prior to today all I had in my collection was the main concertos. Slightly annoying that they couldn't find room for the 2nd Cello Concerto in this box but I can't really complain too much.
Quote from: vandermolen on May 29, 2023, 03:07:42 PMThe Organ Symphony was an answer (which I got right ;D ) to a question on 'University Challenge' on (UK) TV this evening.
Did you call in?
Quote from: Scion7 on November 02, 2023, 11:45:52 PMDid you call in?
No, that's not an option. But the cat appreciated my musical knowledge.
;D
A good ol' shout-at-the-TV-and-Paxman*-will-tell-you-if-you're-right
(*Or whoever was hosting at the time. I don't keep track.)
Keeping things on Camille, I'm currently listening to the Op. 109 set of Preludes and Fugues for organ. I need more organ music in my collection and this set is a good start.
I can't think of anything by Saint-Saens that I've heard that I did not like, although some pieces of course are towards the bottom of the composer's list.
Immediately in love with the Symphony No. 1 in E flat major. A first movement as lively (if not more so) than the Rhenish, a gorgeous slow movement with harp.
Quote from: vandermolen on November 03, 2023, 01:38:38 AMNo, that's not an option. But the cat appreciated my musical knowledge.
;D
(https://www.giantbomb.com/a/uploads/scale_small/16/164924/2581674-5329810583-yMdjr3i2eY0gzt4kdAUDhTJZgmvtIBk3aI0QZhYMmkoaTRkuTKjsqN61Gb_dwhiuU1Dp%3Dw300)
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 03, 2023, 10:46:25 AMImmediately in love with the Symphony No. 1 in E flat major. A first movement as lively (if not more so) than the Rhenish, a gorgeous slow movement with harp.
I think that Saint Saens non-organ symphonies are surprisingly excellent and should be performed and recorded more often!
Listening now to the un-numbered Symphony in A major. There's a Schubertian lightness and freedom in this, not least due to the use of a slow introduction to the first movement.
I've been mainly diving into the chamber music in the last few days. Huge fan of the two Cello Sonatas, and the two String Quartets are also excellent.
FYI: https://www.classicalmusicdaily.com/2023/10/saintsaens.htm
... on period instruments!
promo -->. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WGw0q1tx0Y