Is there really no thread for her yet? Is she the greatest mezzo of the last 50 years? Have only heard her Wagner (Kundry, Erda) and Mahler (Ruckert Lieder, Das Lied) so far, and am absolutely bowled over. The sound is burnished, full, radiant, one of the most beautiful voices I've ever heard. But the delivery is so intense, so sensitive, so deeply felt. What should I hear next? I'm tempted to hear all her Mahler and Wagner singing at least... Of course I know the famous Octavian recordings too actually come to think of it. How is her Marschallin?
Interesting that we seem to have had little support for her over the years I have been here. As always, how each of us hears a voice is subjective. I find her to be lacking in expression in Mahler, but others find what I miss. I detect little tone variation. She is in the famous Klemperer DLVDE, I do admire that recording, but wish Klemperer had used a different mezzo. Much later, if it is not Baker or Fassbaender, then I turn to the second Jessye Norman recording. She was much admired in Mozart, but in Cosi I preferFassbaender. She recorded Verdi, but I don't hear this as an Italianate voice.
Oddly I sometimes think of her as akin to her contemporary, Fischer Dieskau: much admired, but little loved. In the Karajan studio Tristan she sounds like a soprano; occasionally it is difficult to differentiate her from Dernsch.
Her Lieder has been much admired, but give me Baker or Fassbaender instead, where I detect more expression by deploying a wide tone palate rather than just loud/soft.
Mike
I sometimes enjoy her voice. Knight has mentioned a few recordings. I would recommend the Karajan/Schwarzkopf Rosenkavalier. There is also the Verdi Requiem under Giulini that is quite good (again with Schwarzkopf). There was a box of some of her songs/arias released on EMI a few years ago. You might enjoy that.
I have that Karajan Rosenkavalier, she does very good work on it; but I miss the 'face' within the characterisation. Jurinac would have been a better choice with her impetuosity.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on January 30, 2012, 10:58:46 AM
I have that Karajan Rosenkavalier, she does very good work on it; but I miss the 'face' within the characterisation. Jurinac would have been a better choice with her impetuosity.
Mike
Well, there is the DVD with Jurinac, who of course is excellent (and a terrific singer in general). But I think Ludwig is pretty fine here. Ludwig is sometimes accused of being too feminine, in which case Otter is superb for Haitink. But I have not really ever had an issue with Ludwig, who I think sings it believeabley and beautifully.
Quote from: knight66 on January 30, 2012, 10:29:13 AMIn the Karajan studio Tristan she sounds like a soprano; occasionally it is difficult to differentiate her from Dernsch.
Coincidently, I posted this earlier today in another thread when comparing Solti and Karajan's
Die Walküre:
"Christa Ludwig was very good indeed in the part [Fricka] but it is true that her upper range has now become soprano-like and this makes Veasey's true mezzo-soprano better suited to the enraged utterances of the goddess." --Gramophone
Sarge
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 30, 2012, 11:14:22 AM
Well, there is the DVD with Jurinac, who of course is excellent (and a terrific singer in general). But I think Ludwig is pretty fine here. Ludwig is sometimes accused of being too feminine, in which case Otter is superb for Haitink. But I have not really ever had an issue with Ludwig, who I think sings it believeabley and beautifully.
Yes, she had a first rate voice and an excellent technique. I do very much enjoy that set, it is the one to which I most often return. I find nothing objectionable, but I find nothing distinctive. She does not imprint any phrases in my memory.
I did hear her live on radio as Eboli, Karajan was the conductor. Perhaps she was having an off day, but she sounded completely at sea and outside of her playing field. I never noticed her doing Verdi again. That was about 1976. In interview she said she would sing anything Karajan asked of her. This includes about four bars of alto solo work in the final ensemble of his recording of Haydn's Creation.
Whereas I felt her voice lost any individuality once she ascended into soprano roles, the opposite happened to Hunt Lieberson who was to my ears an unidentifiable soprano, but a completely distinctive mezzo. The mezzo range can allow for more tone painting.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on January 30, 2012, 11:50:51 AM
Yes, she had a first rate voice and an excellent technique. I do very much enjoy that set, it is the one to which I most often return. I find nothing objectionable, but I find nothing distinctive. She does not imprint any phrases in my memory.
I did hear her live on radio as Eboli, Karajan was the conductor. Perhaps she was having an off day, but she sounded completely at sea and outside of her playing field. I never noticed her doing Verdi again. That was about 1976. In interview she said she would sing anything Karajan asked of her. This includes about four bars of alto solo work in the final ensemble of his recording of Haydn's Creation.
Whereas I felt her voice lost any individuality once she ascended into soprano roles, the opposite happened to Hunt Lieberson who was to my ears an unidentifiable soprano, but a completely distinctive mezzo. The mezzo range can allow for more tone painting.
Mike
If I sang with Karajan and he wanted me to sing something, I'd do it too! I have not yet discovered Hunt Lieberson, who I have seen posted often on these boards. That pleasure is still ahead of me.
It ought indeed to be a pleasure. As to Karajan, there are plenty of singers who one feels he abused by enticing them into roles too big for them. Or, at least keeping them singing them. Dernsch is one, Freni another. But that is a discussion for a different thread.
Mike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM5VH-97ylo&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL0FF3A2FD276B1BC2
this is the only version of the Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen I can find on youtube, but it's all crackily. I think this is so special.
Thanks for the suggestions. Funny how people hear things so differently. As you know, my tastes do tend to chime with your preferences when it comes to voices Mike, but then my favourite singer, Renee Fleming is much criticised by voice mavens, so I'm also quite used to finding huge differences in opinion with people I respect about which voices are Great and which are merely good!
I'd like to hear Ludwig (and Fleming!!) do the Wesendonck.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 30, 2012, 11:23:49 AM
Coincidently, I posted this earlier today in another thread when comparing Solti and Karajan's Die Walküre:
"Christa Ludwig was very good indeed in the part [Fricka] but it is true that her upper range has now become soprano-like and this makes Veasey's true mezzo-soprano better suited to the enraged utterances of the goddess." --Gramophone
Sarge
She seems appropriately dark to me in the Levine/MET DVD of the Ring. Besides Fricka in the first two nights of that cycle, she also did Waltraute in Gotterdammerung, but I haven't gotten around to watching that segment yet.
Great thread. I loved her in Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle with Walter Berry. Absolutely a mind-blowing experience. Yes, she had an incredible voice.
I think it is good that people are enjoying her. I am certainly not interested in putting people off her.
Christa Ludwig recorded the Wesendonk songs for EMI under Klemperer. It is on Spotify which you can download free and listen free if you can stand adverts every three tracks or so. But it would let you hear her. I have three of the songs on disk, grave beautiful......but not memorable. Typical of EMI, such vandalism, they are on a two disc selection of her material. Titled, the very best of...
Other than that, I don't think the performances are commercially available.
Mike
Pretty conventional views from me too: DLVDE + Rückert + Kindertoten with Karajan I find truly magnificent, DLVDE/Klemperer also among the best recordings of that work.
As regards the lieder, in the the few things I´ve heard, the singing was too big and somewhat old-fashioned and operatic for my taste (Mahler lieder), IMHO. Obviously not based on a lot of listening.
As usual, my thoughts chime with Mike's on this subject. It was a beautifiul, rich voice, not inexpressive indeed, but often lacking in that specificity I find in the singing of Baker and Fassbaender in much of the same repertoire. That said, I have quite a few of her recordings, and certainly enjoy her work on them. She was an unexpected choice for Adalgisa on the second Callas Norma. Her coloratura may not be as accurate as Callas's, but she sings the role very well, and, though a mezzo, she sounds for once, as she should, like the younger woman. Stignani on the other Callas set doesn't for one minute sound like a young girl.
I do slightly differ from Mike, though, in really enjoying her Octavian on the first Karajan Der Rosenkavalier, in which she captures Octavian's youthful ardour to perfection.
spotify:album:1YPa26Tst4xmIVaCdD0iXS - they're all there. Plus other nice bits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBrjw539KR8&feature=fvst - what do people think of this? Must check out Fassbaender too.
Can you give an example of what you are talking about when you say the specificity of Baker?
Quote from: Guido on January 31, 2012, 06:27:40 AM
Can you give an example of what you are talking about when you say the specificity of Baker?
It's hard to give a single example, but what I mean is that one feels that the emotion expressed is always specific to that one song, that one aria. Many singers, though not inexpressive, tend to be more generalised in their approach, a colour for sadness, a colour for happiness etc. Baker's singing, to me, always seems more immediate. I can give no better example than her version of
Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen, so inward one feels the singer has already withdrawn from the world. Ludwig's version, though beautifully sung doesn't quite expose the song's heart in the same way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBTnAmWkxC0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBTnAmWkxC0)
Quote from: Guido on January 31, 2012, 06:14:23 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBrjw539KR8&feature=fvst - what do people think of this? Must check out Fassbaender too.
Speaking of mezzos or contraltos, Maureen Forrester is one of my all time favorites. I didn't know she passed away in 2010. Here's some interesting vocal music by CPE Bach sung by her. If you stay to the end, there is a wonderful
fil di voce. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUqdWkezQik&feature=related
And her Urlicht with Glenn Gould is legendary.
ZB
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on January 31, 2012, 10:58:25 PM
It's hard to give a single example, but what I mean is that one feels that the emotion expressed is always specific to that one song, that one aria. Many singers, though not inexpressive, tend to be more generalised in their approach, a colour for sadness, a colour for happiness etc.
It's interesting what you say about a specific approach for a particular song or role. I never really thought about it with regard to Ludwig as my standby for the
Lied von der Erde is the Klemperer with Wunderlich and I liked her very much. I listened to the
Ich bin der Welt and you are right about the lack of specificity. Also, is there a vibrato in the voice here? This is something that she would not normally be found in the same sentence with. It could be the fault of the recording though.
ZB
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on February 05, 2012, 09:45:13 AM
It's interesting what you say about a specific approach for a particular song or role. I never really thought about it with regard to Ludwig as my standby for the Lied von der Erde is the Klemperer with Wunderlich and I liked her very much. I listened to the Ich bin der Welt and you are right about the lack of specificity. Also, is there a vibrato in the voice here? This is something that she would not normally be found in the same sentence with. It could be the fault of the recording though.
ZB
Vibrato? In the one I linked to above? Yes! Lots of it! I've never heard her singing without vibrato - she was hardly one of the HIP vibratoless crew!
At what time does the fil di voce in the Maureen Forrester clip appear? The bit at 3:45? Beautiful recording.
Quote from: Guido on February 06, 2012, 06:14:23 AM
At what time does the fil di voce in the Maureen Forrester clip appear? The bit at 3:45? Beautiful recording.
That one, too, but also at 5:50 and 6:45.
ZB
My favorite for Ich bin der Welt is not Ludwig but José van Dam. He doesn't explode in the middle like Hampton and hasn't the dry delivery of DFD. Depending on one's interpretation of the poem, it is not exactly a farewell to the world as in Lied von der Erde but a paean to solitude, which is exactly what he conveys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuQBg-tS0o8
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on February 06, 2012, 08:33:08 AM
My favorite for Ich bin der Welt is not Ludwig but José van Dam. He doesn't explode in the middle like Hampton and hasn't the dry delivery of DFD. Depending on one's interpretation of the poem, it is not exactly a farewell to the world as in Lied von der Erde but a paean to solitude, which is exactly what he conveys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuQBg-tS0o8
Thank you for that, ZB. I was in the process of listening to a batch of versions of
ich bin der Welt, when I saw your post. This would certainly be one of my favourite versions, though, for me, it doesn't quite eclipse Baker, who seems to me to already have withdrawn from the world, her singing almost other worldly. However I know you have a problem with Baker, so won't labour the point. Van Dam cetainly achieves a similar sense of
innigkeit.
I also listened to Margaret Price, a voice I love, but sounding all wrong in this. Thinking maybe this had something to do with the soprano voice, I then listened to Jessye Norman, who does sing the song beautifully, but she sounds almost like a contralto here. That said, I've always prefered Norman singinging in the mezzo register. She has never sounded like a true soprano to me and I don't like her version of Strauss's
Vier letzte Lieder at all. Margaret Price (live on youtube), on the other hand, sounds magnificent in them.
Next I listened to Fischer-Dieskau, who, singing in his own language, makes more of the words than anyone else except Schwarzkopf, who sang it under Bruno Walter at his farewell concert. Hers is not an entirely successful version, but she makes it work for the soprano voice much better than Price does, adopting a darker tone for the lower phrases and ethereally floating the higher ones.
Hunt Lieberson would also be a contender if she were singing with orchestra, but, though she is completely inside the song, she is hampered by the piano accompaniment. If anyone knows of a Hunt Lieberson version with orchestra, please direct me to it immediately.
Getting back to Ludwig, I would say that, gravely beautiful though her singing is, all the above singers (save Price) have greater insight into the song, and its meaning.
Is that the one Van Dam has on CD with Paul Casadesus?
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on February 06, 2012, 09:31:45 AM
Thank you for that, ZB. I was in the process of listening to a batch of versions of ich bin der Welt, when I saw your post. This would certainly be one of my favourite versions, though, for me, it doesn't quite eclipse Baker, who seems to me to already have withdrawn from the world, her singing almost other worldly. However I know you have a problem with Baker, so won't labour the point. Van Dam cetainly achieves a similar sense of innigkeit.
I also listened to Margaret Price, a voice I love, but sounding all wrong in this. Thinking maybe this had something to do with the soprano voice, I then listened to Jessye Norman, who does sing the song beautifully, but she sounds almost like a contralto here. That said, I've always prefered Norman singinging in the mezzo register. She has never sounded like a true soprano to me and I don't like her version of Strauss's Vier letzte Lieder at all. Margaret Price (live on youtube), on the other hand, sounds magnificent in them.
Next I listened to Fischer-Dieskau, who, singing in his own language, makes more of the words than anyone else except Schwarzkopf, who sang it under Bruno Walter at his farewell concert. Hers is not an entirely successful version, but she makes it work for the soprano voice much better than Price does, adopting a darker tone for the lower phrases and ethereally floating the higher ones.
Hunt Lieberson would also be a contender if she were singing with orchestra, but, though she is completely inside the song, she is hampered by the piano accompaniment. If anyone knows of a Hunt Lieberson version with orchestra, please direct me to it immediately.
Getting back to Ludwig, I would say that, gravely beautiful though her singing is, all the above singers (save Price) have greater insight into the song, and its meaning.
Hi Tsaras,
I took your suggestions as a listening assignment and here is my homework.
I like Janet Baker very much in
Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen. She is surely head and shoulders above most in this song with the
innigkeit you described. The only problem I have here is conceptual. Perhaps those singers who recorded this Lied are somewhat evenly divided. Some make the ending as trailing off into the sunset but that is not what Kathleen Ferrier does and I agree with her interpretation more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p77JoONFX8U&feature=related
One can be dead to the world's noise (media bombardment, advertising, rat race, acquiring the latest possessions) and have a heaven of life, love and song, even while alone. Probably Buddha would agree.
Ferrier also recorded with Walter but Schwartzkopf's version is so different. Yet, in her restraint captures the spirit in a very individual manner. I doubt if anyone then or now can remotely copy her.
Margaret Price is practically unlistenable. Where Schwatzkopf holds back, she just belts out the end of a phrase because it is comfortable vocally with no regard for the scansion of the word or shape of the phrase as spoken or sung. Her maudlin fading out towards the end is without rhyme or reason.
ZB
Hope you enjoyed your assignment, ZB.
I can't imagine how I left Ferrier out when searching for recordings of the song, as I have known her version for many years. That said I take the opposite view to you and still prefer Baker in this particular song. I suppose preference depends on one's own view of the song. In Um Mitternacht, though, the roles are reversed, and I prefer Ferrier's deepe, Erda like, pronouncements. The effect is quite spine chilling and remains my favourite version of this song. Janet Baker's version, which I have on disc doesn't appear to be on youtube for you to compare, but, though thoughtful as ever, it doesn't make quite the same effect. Ludwig I again find generalised in her approach.
Here is the link to Ferrier's version of Um Mitternacht[/b. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8HSjNOXkFk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8HSjNOXkFk)
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on February 07, 2012, 02:45:13 PM
Hope you enjoyed your assignment, ZB.
I can't imagine how I left Ferrier out when searching for recordings of the song, as I have known her version for many years. That said I take the opposite view to you and still prefer Baker in this particular song. I suppose preference depends on one's own view of the song. In Um Mitternacht, though, the roles are reversed, and I prefer Ferrier's deepe, Erda like, pronouncements. The effect is quite spine chilling and remains my favourite version of this song. Janet Baker's version, which I have on disc doesn't appear to be on youtube for you to compare, but, though thoughtful as ever, it doesn't make quite the same effect. Ludwig I again find generalised in her approach.
Here is the link to Ferrier's version of Um Mitternacht[/b. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8HSjNOXkFk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8HSjNOXkFk)
This is going to sound like heresy, but first the disclaimer - even if one was not familiar with the text, one could not help but be moved by Ferrier's (and Walter's for that matter) deep involvement. But what makes for the spine chilling effect is the vibrato that to me is distracting. I can't really listen to everything she has recorded for that reason. Sometimes it is discreet but here it's really too much like the larynx muscles are tensed up.
Maureen Forrester had a similar type voice (rare as they are) and always had a settled, even velvet quality, never once giving the effect of straining. Speaking of mezzos and contraltos, probably Forrester was underrated as a singer and interpreter. Her recordings, in my opinion, show how contraltos can and should sing.
ZB
I think you are right about Forrester, it was a great voice. I do enjoy that Ferrier.
Mike
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on February 08, 2012, 10:24:29 PM
This is going to sound like heresy, but first the disclaimer - even if one was not familiar with the text, one could not help but be moved by Ferrier's (and Walter's for that matter) deep involvement. But what makes for the spine chilling effect is the vibrato that to me is distracting. I can't really listen to everything she has recorded for that reason. Sometimes it is discreet but here it's really too much like the larynx muscles are tensed up.
Maureen Forrester had a similar type voice (rare as they are) and always had a settled, even velvet quality, never once giving the effect of straining. Speaking of mezzos and contraltos, probably Forrester was underrated as a singer and interpreter. Her recordings, in my opinion, show how contraltos can and should sing.
ZB
I went looking for Forrester in the
Ruckert Lieder and came across these two songs on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYiiz9f2vgE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYiiz9f2vgE) I prefer Baker's lighter touch in
Liebst du am Schonheit, but
Um Mitternacht suits Forrester admirably, though she too is hardly without vibrato. Might it have something to do with the way the voice has to penetrate the rather heavy, brass orchestration? Both Callas and Schwarzkopf, in their masterclasses, talk of the need to vibrate the voice in heavily orchestrated passages.
I don't understand these comments about vibrato? It sounds like it's being objected to as an idea. But presumably you're talking about too much vibrato?
I too far prefer Forrester to Ludwig, a singer who has seldom provided me with those frissons and/or insights one expects from the vocal art. Unfortunately, there is far less of the former on record. She also recorded "Ich bin der Welt..." with Fricsay - in fact, I downloaded that and "Um Mitternacht" from the net - I've forgotten the site/link but it wasn't too difficult to find. Irreplaceable. I used to be moved by the Ferrier/Walter of the latter song, but the heavy layer of emotional sincerity Ferrier applied to everything she did - in spades - now tends to repel me. Ludwig is almost the opposite - as has been remarked by others here, her work seems strangely lacking in detailed response to words & music, almost faceless - though yes, she is very fine in Bartók's A kékszakállú herceg vára). But there are no other recordings by her that I would choose for Pleasure, Frissons & Co.
Forrester's is one of the two finest singers of the alto songs of DLvdE, in my estimation, the other being Nan Merriman (but I haven't yet heard Fassbaender).
Sorry for conspiring in the theft of your Ludwig thread, Guido!
No its all good! I want to explore all these names!
I've got:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XF27MTTBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
But I usually prefer Fischer-Dieskau.
Quote from: mjwal on March 14, 2012, 04:24:42 AM
I too far prefer Forrester to Ludwig, a singer who has seldom provided me with those frissons and/or insights one expects from the vocal art. Unfortunately, there is far less of the former on record. She also recorded "Ich bin der Welt..." with Fricsay - in fact, I downloaded that and "Um Mitternacht" from the net - I've forgotten the site/link but it wasn't too difficult to find. Irreplaceable. I used to be moved by the Ferrier/Walter of the latter song, but the heavy layer of emotional sincerity Ferrier applied to everything she did - in spades - now tends to repel me.
Totally agree. Actually, I saw Forrester in person giving a masterclass many years ago, an elegant and knowledgable woman.
ZB
Here's another Maureen Forrester recording.
"He was Despised" (Messiah) in a slow tempo without being maudlin, no vocal tricks or extraneous emoting, just hardhitting understatement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBrjw539KR8&feature=related
ZB
My interview with Christa Ludwig (in German, alas) for Crescendo Magazine:
https://www.youtube.com/v/C8St0mt6V6E
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 15, 2018, 09:36:56 AM
My interview with Christa Ludwig (in German, alas) for Crescendo Magazine:
How nice to see her elegantly coiffed, well made-up and dressed! Her speaking voice still has a sparkle to it, after all the use over the years, at the age of 90. Fine lady!
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 15, 2018, 09:36:56 AM
My interview with Christa Ludwig (in German, alas) for Crescendo Magazine:
"... aber sonst find ich das sehr schön!" ;D
cool beans!
For me the Klemperer/Wunderlich/Ludwig Das Lied von der Erde (hereafter DLE) is incomparable and Ludwig magnificent in Der Abschied.
Karajan wanted Ludwig to sing Isolde and she learned the role but backed out, a sensible decision. She recorded the Liebestod with Klemperer, not one of her best efforts. It is available on an EMI GROC along with two Wunderhorn and three Ruckert songs. She is excellent in 'Um Mitternacht' and 'Ich bin der Welt...' though I have Janet Baker indelibly imprinted on my brain in these two songs.
Maureen Forrester is another favourite singer but I have a live performance from 1960 of DLE with Bruno Walter and unfortunately she sing with unvarying heavy vibrato throughout; I can't abide to listen to it. This is odd because it is not a problem in her live performance with Szell or, best of all, with Reiner. Was it Bruno Walter's choice? In his recordings with Kerstin Thorborg (1937) and Kathleen Ferrier (1952) both singers only use a moderate amount of vibrato (Ferrier perhaps more than Thorborg).
Quote from: Biffo on March 27, 2018, 05:59:47 AM
For me the Klemperer/Wunderlich/Ludwig Das Lied von der Erde (hereafter DLE) is incomparable and Ludwig magnificent in Der Abschied.
Karajan wanted Ludwig to sing Isolde and she learned the role but backed out, a sensible decision. She recorded the Liebestod with Klemperer, not one of her best efforts. It is available on an EMI GROC along with two Wunderhorn and three Ruckert songs. She is excellent in 'Um Mitternacht' and 'Ich bin der Welt...' though I have Janet Baker indelibly imprinted on my brain in these two songs.
I also love the Klemperer DLE, not least for Wunderlich's peerless singing of the tenor songs. However my favourite performance of all has become a live Kubelik version featuring Janet Baker in the lower songs. If you like Baker in Mahler, then you really need ot hear this.
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/May03/mahler_audite.jpg)