GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: Kullervo on June 15, 2007, 06:43:57 PM

Title: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on June 15, 2007, 06:43:57 PM
There doesn't seem to be much talk about this composer whom I feel is one of the most, if not THE most, profound composer of the past 50 years. So here's a little intro for those not acquainted!

Per Nørgård

(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z245/tapiola/33tokyo.gif)

Born July 13th, 1932 in Gentofte, Denmark.

Studied under both Nadia Boulanger and Vagn Holmboe.

Had a correspondence with Jean Sibelius for some time before the master's death in 1957 (Sibelius is also a huge influence on Nørgård).

Experimented with serial and collage techniques in his early works.

Discovered a series of numbers called the Infinity Series (http://www.pernoergaard.dk/eng/strukturer/uendelig/uindhold.html), which is, to be honest, over my head. Some good examples of pieces that utilize the series are Voyage Into the Golden Screen and the 2nd and 3rd symphonies.

Became obsessed with the schizophrenic Swiss artist Adolf Wölfli, eventually writing several works based around Wölfli's troubled life and work. Major works from his "Wölfli" period are the 4th Symphony and the opera, The Divine Tivoli (Tivoli translates to something like "circus" or "carnival").

His latest works from the 1990s to now are harder to pin down. His 5th symphony I honestly don't understand, but other more recent pieces seem to be more accessible, such as his piano concerto.

I hope this has been educational!  $:)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: uffeviking on June 15, 2007, 06:58:43 PM
It has, and I am glad you brought it up! Makes me feel a lot better to hear you too are struggling with this no doubt great, but complicated composer.

I have quite a number of his works in my collection but am really familiar with his two operas Siddharta and Gilgamesh. In fact it was my interest in the epic of Gilgamesh which introduced me to him. I'll keep on plugging away at him, and keep on reminding us and educating us!  :)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on June 16, 2007, 08:03:24 PM
Hm, no other replies? Are people just not interested in music they haven't heard?  :(
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: uffeviking on June 16, 2007, 08:17:09 PM
Don't be discouraged, please! As you can tell from part of my on-line name I always have been interested in music by Scandinavian composers, and like you, received very rare responses. There is only one Canadian member here who is familiar with Nørgârd, evidently he has not read your post yet.  :(
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on June 16, 2007, 08:32:43 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on June 16, 2007, 08:17:09 PMThere is only one Canadian member here who is familiar with Nørgârd, evidently he has not read your post yet.  :(

That wouldn't be Xantus would it?  ;)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: uffeviking on June 16, 2007, 08:37:16 PM
No! As impossible as it sounds, it would be Lilas Pastia!  :)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on June 16, 2007, 08:43:38 PM
Ha! Well, perhaps this isn't the place to look for fellow Nørgård fan(atic)s. It would seem that most of the users's tastes go to about 1920, and not much further.

not that it's a bad thing...
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: uffeviking on June 16, 2007, 08:53:31 PM
Remember it's Saturday night! And remember it's a weekend; a lot of posters use their employer's system at work or at school. Also it's night in Europe, where we have many members. All kinds of excuses I can come up with, but none for my lack of intimate knowledge of your favourite composer!  :)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Choo Choo on June 17, 2007, 02:51:34 AM
I am very fond of the distinctive sound world which Norgard creates in his symphonies.  The first 3 are the ones I know best.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Raisa on June 17, 2007, 04:34:49 AM
I've have heard about him but never his music! Any CD-recommendations? Which of his works should I start with? Has he written any symphonies? ???

Cheers! 8)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: not edward on June 17, 2007, 05:02:59 AM
I'm generally positive about Norgard: love the 3rd and 6th symphonies and Terrains vagues, and like most of the other symphonies and some of the concerti I've heard. The chamber music seems to me to be mostly rather dull--lacking the textural interest of the works for larger ensembles.

I've not listened to Gilgamesh in a long while--maybe I should pull it out today.

For a newcomer to Norgard's music, this disc appears to me to be a prime recommendation: the Third Symphony is a comparatively accessible work with an almost Scriabinesque over-the-top nature, while the piano concerto is a lot of fun. Good performances, too.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FTJ092V9L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on June 17, 2007, 05:31:41 AM
Quote from: edward on June 17, 2007, 05:02:59 AM
I'm generally positive about Norgard: love the 3rd and 6th symphonies and Terrains vagues, and like most of the other symphonies and some of the concerti I've heard. The chamber music seems to me to be mostly rather dull--lacking the textural interest of the works for larger ensembles.

I've not listened to Gilgamesh in a long while--maybe I should pull it out today.

For a newcomer to Norgard's music, this disc appears to me to be a prime recommendation: the Third Symphony is a comparatively accessible work with an almost Scriabinesque over-the-top nature, while the piano concerto is a lot of fun. Good performances, too.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FTJ092V9L._SS500_.jpg)

I second that recommendation.

I think the order one should listen to his symphonies should go something like this: 3, 1, 2, 6, 4, 5

I wonder when 7 will be recorded...
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Choo Choo on June 17, 2007, 01:36:16 PM
Quote from: Kullervo on June 17, 2007, 05:31:41 AM
I second that recommendation.

I think the order one should listen to his symphonies should go something like this: 3, 1, 2, 6, 4, 5

I agree too.  The 3rd has the most arresting opening few minutes - plunges you straight into his sound world.  I never tire of that piece.

Norgard is also refreshing and invigorating after you've been over-indulging in the Late Romantics:  the aural equivalent of a facial peel.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: btpaul674 on June 19, 2007, 11:45:06 AM
I did not know Norgard had written a 7th....

What is known about it?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on June 19, 2007, 11:49:19 AM
Quote from: btpaul674 on June 19, 2007, 11:45:06 AM
I did not know Norgard had written a 7th....

What is known about it?

I shall ask him. :)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: btpaul674 on June 19, 2007, 11:54:54 AM
Excellent.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on June 19, 2007, 11:57:25 AM
Quote from: btpaul674 on June 19, 2007, 11:54:54 AM
Excellent.

It might be several weeks though. He doesn't have an email (that I know of), so I will have to send him a letter through the post, and even then it could take him a while to answer. There is, also, a possibility that he will not answer, though I've been told he greatly appreciates letters from his admirers.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: bhodges on June 19, 2007, 12:13:28 PM
Ah, somehow I missed this thread!  I'm relatively new to Nørgård , but like what little I've heard.  My introduction was on a CD called Baltic Voices 2, which has his Winter Hymn.  I love choral music so I'd be eager to hear more of his work in that genre.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N3V70ERYL._AA240_.jpg)

I've also heard his piano trio Spell, on this CD called Passage, which I liked as well, but I don't think I have more than that.  Checking on Amazon, he's quite well-represented on recordings!  PS, coincidentally, just yesterday I had pulled out this disc below.  I recall liking the whole thing, in addition to the Nørgård trio.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D22RGEEQL._AA240_.jpg)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: S709 on July 07, 2007, 10:55:49 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on June 16, 2007, 08:17:09 PM
There is only one Canadian member here who is familiar with Nørgârd, evidently he has not read your post yet.  :(

No, there's two. :P

Sorry I neglected this thread before... Norgard is one of the most important composers today for sure.
There is something totally original and wonderful about his music, whether it is new sonorities (Symphony 6) or unusual but awesome rhythmic innovations (Terrains Vagues), and so on.

"Wie ein Kind" sounds appropriately crazy, as does "And Time Shall be no More" -- though my favorite from the Wolfli period is the anguished and sometimes frightening Symphony no. 4.

I don't see anyone ever mention his piano works: I like "Achilles and the Tortoise" (1983) the most. A piece in the spirit of some of the Ligeti etudes, probably equally difficult, and a joy to hear. I haven't gotten into the piano sonatas yet, and they are early works.

Actually, I haven't gotten much into early Norgard, for example the two Holmboe-like early symphonies.

Any thoughts on there?

Oh, and another thing -- his 2 violin concertos are wonderful.

Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: greg on July 07, 2007, 12:20:31 PM
Kullervo, there were a few members that almost regularly visit Norgard, but haven't been on this forum in awhile, for maybe 2 or 3 months. Two of them regularly posted, Mikkel and Daniel, and another i don't think ever posted but he might've joined anyways.
Here's a couple of pms Mikkel sent me, i just thought you'd be interested:

Quote from: MikkelJS on June 26, 2006, 02:50:29 PM
You will never believe this Greg! I called Per Nørgård today just after dinner... :o

I was together with my friend Daniel, and we decided to call Nørgård to ask if we could possibly get some lessons with him some time. First I told Nørgård, that I heard a lot of his music and loved his ideas and then I introduced my self and my two friends and asked if he would give us a lesson, and he said, that he did not teach anymore, but we could call again in august and then perhabs meet in Copenhagen in his house at the late morning.
Then he said, that it was quite funny because this day today was a very special day to him - he has just finished his Symphony nr. 7 here today just before I called him.  :o :angel: (Greg, don´t say this to anyone! It´s a secret! :police:) And then he said: ,,Congratulation! Congratulation! Congratulation to myself! "... And then I also gratulated him. ;D

When we had talked for 9 minuttes, he said, that he had to go now, because he should go to dinner, before his wife would get angry at him. :D

It was really cool to hear that mans voice.  8)

QuoteOh, I was wrong! His 7th symphony has not yet been performed, because it´s written for the opening ceremony of the new radio hause in Denmark...

I visited Nørgård yesterday with two of my freinds, and we had a really nice conversation for almost 4 hours!  The first thing he said to us, when he opened the door, was, that he had prepared some healthy and some sweet - the healthy was carrottes, and the sweet was snittes of Snickers chocolate bars, then he asked if we would like coffee or cranberry juice... He showed us his apartment and at second floor (which was originally the roof room) was hes work place, where we found a Hindsberg piano in the middle with handwritten scores everywhere both on the piano and the table. And next to the piano and table was another room he caaled his score archive. It was filled as a library with only Nørgårds music and he said, he had soon too much music for that room!
Then we was sitting and talked about his and our music and Sibelius´s life etc. It was SO exciting, when Nørgård told us the story about, when he discovered the tone of the ocean and how intuitive melodies founded near the ocean was actually later discovered as perfect connecting with his infinity series.   

He told us stories of when he met Stravinsky and how strange he was as a person - and he showed us letters from Sibelius from when he dedicated works for him! And then he told, that he was only 2 persons from Beethoven: Nørgård had shaked hands with Sibelius, whom shaked hands with a old german violinist, whom knew Beethoven and helped him with the practical work of the 9th symphony! 

Then Nørgård gave us a cd and we got a pen, the one I got, was the one he had just used when he composed the last days. So I will save it as a souvenir. 

And then he said that he visited him like 7 times over the time span of maybe 2 months!
Attached is the picture of all of them together. In the middle is Mikkel and to the right is Daniel.

Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: greg on July 07, 2007, 12:22:32 PM
my favorite Norgard work is...... hm, either the Violin concerto or the 4th string quartet. Hard to choose... he's not my favorite modern composer, but I can definetely say I like his music.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on July 07, 2007, 12:25:41 PM
Quote from: greg on July 07, 2007, 12:20:31 PM
Kullervo, there were a few members that almost regularly visit Norgard, but haven't been on this forum in awhile, for maybe 2 or 3 months. Two of them regularly posted, Mikkel and Daniel, and another i don't think ever posted but he might've joined anyways.
Here's a couple of pms Mikkel sent me, i just thought you'd be interested:

And then he said that he visited him like 7 times over the time span of maybe 2 months!
Attached is the picture of all of them together. In the middle is Mikkel and to the right is Daniel.

Ah yes, Xantus sent me that blurb long before I joined the forum here. I am still envious, but I wonder if I would have anything to say to him, as I respect him too much.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: greg on July 07, 2007, 12:30:17 PM
Quote from: Kullervo on July 07, 2007, 12:25:41 PM
Ah yes, Xantus sent me that blurb long before I joined the forum here. I am still envious, but I wonder if I would have anything to say to him, as I respect him too much.
just call him up, it's only like $50 a minute.

you can just go, "yo, what's up, Per? What's happening, yo yo yo?! When's yo' 8th dropping man, cuz I fo' shizzle iz gonna get to dat Amazon site an' buy it, you know what I mean, homie?"
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: greg on July 07, 2007, 12:31:41 PM
he should be able to speak English well enough to have a conversation, but i doubt it if you talked like that  ;D

(but you never know, he might watch hip hop and country music videos all the time)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: btpaul674 on July 10, 2007, 09:55:03 PM
I think the piece I (and most people) get sucked into is his 3rd symphony. I probably could put the first movement on repeat for days, and as far as the second movement, it's easy to listen to but difficult for me to fully wrap my head around. I often forget that when I listen to the entire symphony, I haven't moved from my seat. Alas I am weary from traveling.

I love his piano music as well.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on July 10, 2007, 11:08:32 PM
I mentioned in the Listening thread that I drove 10 miles out to the middle of nowhere for the sole purpose of listening to his 2nd. While I listened I watched a thundercloud form several miles away. It was pretty appropriate, I'd say.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on July 11, 2007, 12:37:57 AM
Interesting thread. Symphony 1 is my favourite. Norgard was taught by two of my favourite composers; Vagn Holmboe and Hilding Rosenberg (whose Third Symphony is a great score). I am liking Norgard more and more.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: greg on July 11, 2007, 06:03:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 11, 2007, 12:37:57 AM
Interesting thread. Symphony 1 is my favourite.
Possibly my favorite of his symphonies, also. But maybe this is just because it's more accessible or memorable? His later styles require tons of repeated listening to really understand, I don't think i'll totally get them for awhile......
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: bhodges on July 11, 2007, 06:14:29 AM
Quote from: Kullervo on July 10, 2007, 11:08:32 PM
I mentioned in the Listening thread that I drove 10 miles out to the middle of nowhere for the sole purpose of listening to his 2nd. While I listened I watched a thundercloud form several miles away. It was pretty appropriate, I'd say.

Great image!  (And I don't even know the piece.)  This thread is giving me some great directions to pursue, by the way, as a relative newcomer to this composer.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: greg on July 11, 2007, 06:18:15 AM
what'd be even more appropriate is if he was driving around listening to the 4th and then all of a sudden he saw an Indian Rose Garden and a Chinese Witch's Lake.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on July 11, 2007, 07:42:21 AM
Quote from: greg on July 11, 2007, 06:18:15 AM
what'd be even more appropriate is if he was driving around listening to the 4th and then all of a sudden he saw an Indian Rose Garden and a Chinese Witch's Lake.

Then my name would be Adolph Wölfli.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on July 11, 2007, 07:44:43 AM
Quote from: bhodges on July 11, 2007, 06:14:29 AM
Great image!  (And I don't even know the piece.)  This thread is giving me some great directions to pursue, by the way, as a relative newcomer to this composer.

--Bruce

Definitely listen to his 3rd first, as it is basically the apotheosis of his compositional language up to that point in time.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on July 12, 2007, 01:36:18 AM
Quote from: greg on July 11, 2007, 06:03:55 AM
Possibly my favorite of his symphonies, also. But maybe this is just because it's more accessible or memorable? His later styles require tons of repeated listening to really understand, I don't think i'll totally get them for awhile......

Yes, that is no doubt why i like Symphony 1 best. I think it is closest in spirit to Vagn Holmboe (on past experience i'll probably be shot down for suggesting the comparison), a composer I greatly admire. However I have the Chandos CD with Norgard's Third Symphony and will persevere with that. For similar reasons, Robert Simpson's First Symphony is, by far, my favourite although I like No 3 also.

Malipiero Symphony 7 is another work I'm greatly enjoying at the moment (Marco Polo).
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on July 12, 2007, 04:23:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 12, 2007, 01:36:18 AM
I think it is closest in spirit to Vagn Holmboe (on past experience i'll probably be shot down for suggesting the comparison)

Not at all. In fact, I think even Nørgård would agree with you.

I've yet to hear any Holmboe, though. I keep seeing a disc of his chamber concerti at the library, but that seems like it would be an odd place to start with him, so I hold off.

Oh - unrelated - does anyone know anything about Ib Norholm? I know nothing about him, but his name is mentioned quite prominently in the essay collection The Music of Per Nørgård.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on July 12, 2007, 04:36:38 AM
Quote from: Kullervo on July 12, 2007, 04:23:21 AM
Not at all. In fact, I think even Nørgård would agree with you.

I've yet to hear any Holmboe, though. I keep seeing a disc of his chamber concerti at the library, but that seems like it would be an odd place to start with him, so I hold off.

Oh - unrelated - does anyone know anything about Ib Norholm? I know nothing about him, but his name is mentioned quite prominently in the essay collection The Music of Per Nørgård.

Thanks, re:Vagn Holmboe, if you want to investigate the music of this great composer I'd suggest that you start with any of the symphonies 6-8 or 10. They are all of a very high standard. Can't really help you with Norholm but I'm sure that others here will.

Vagn Holmboe sent me a charming reply to my fan mail letter, apologising for the delay as he'd been in hospital for six months.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on September 30, 2008, 06:34:42 AM
Well some actual news here for a change. :D Dacapo has said that the 7th Symphony will be premiering at the grand opening of the new concert hall in Copenhagen. They've already recorded it and are planning to have copies for sell at the end of the concert. Almost as exciting is that the 7th will be paired on disc with a brand new recording of the 3rd, and on SACD. :o

Here (http://www.dacapo-records.dk/?page=catalogue&id=7547&typemask=1) is Dacapo's page for the recording.

Some photos from the recording session:

(http://www.dacapo-records.dk/uploads/_bos7442.jpg)

(http://www.dacapo-records.dk/uploads/_bos7471.jpg)

(http://www.dacapo-records.dk/uploads/_bos7569.jpg)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: UB on September 30, 2008, 11:34:27 AM
"Oh - unrelated - does anyone know anything about Ib Norholm? I know nothing about him, but his name is
mentioned quite prominently in the essay collection The Music of Per Nørgård."

Kullervo: I have been long a fan of Nørgård's contemporary Ib Norholm and have mentioned him a number of times when someone writes about Nørgård. In my opinion Norholm's symphonies have much more depth than Nørgård. Especially after Nørgård change to a more neo-romantic style sometime in the late 90's.

Luckily for me I was able to get most of Kontrapunkt excellent series of Norholm cds when they came up at Berkshire many years ago. It included all the symphonies - at least through 9 and two excellent cds of chamber music.

I would suggest you get the cd with symphonies 4 & 5 if you can find it.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: greg on September 30, 2008, 11:35:11 AM
Well, it's about time!  :)
I hope it doesn't take to o long to get to Amazon...... i might have to buy it.

Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on September 30, 2008, 12:58:36 PM
Quote from: UB on September 30, 2008, 11:34:27 AM
"Oh - unrelated - does anyone know anything about Ib Norholm? I know nothing about him, but his name is
mentioned quite prominently in the essay collection The Music of Per Nørgård."

Kullervo: I have been long a fan of Nørgård's contemporary Ib Norholm and have mentioned him a number of times when someone writes about Nørgård. In my opinion Norholm's symphonies have much more depth than Nørgård. Especially after Nørgård change to a more neo-romantic style sometime in the late 90's.

Luckily for me I was able to get most of Kontrapunkt excellent series of Norholm cds when they came up at Berkshire many years ago. It included all the symphonies - at least through 9 and two excellent cds of chamber music.

I would suggest you get the cd with symphonies 4 & 5 if you can find it.

Hi, Kullervo here. Thanks for the recommendations. To be honest I had completely forgotten about Norholm until you mentioned him in another thread. After I listen to the new slew of Nørgård recordings I'll be sure to give him a listen.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on September 30, 2008, 03:31:45 PM
Quote from: UB on September 30, 2008, 11:34:27 AM
In my opinion Norholm's symphonies have much more depth than Nørgård. Especially after Nørgård change to a more neo-romantic style sometime in the late 90's.

Why do you think Norgard "changed to a more neo-romantic style"? Just to take as examples some of his works after the turn of the millennium: his Violin Concerto No. 2 "Borderlines" is almost a return to the psychadelia of the late 1960s, his Harp Concerto No. 2 "Through Thorns" is a dizzingly complex exploration of the infinity series, and "Mytisk Morgen" for bass clarinet and mixed choir is one of the weirdest sounding pieces of new music around. Norgard is all over the place right now, and just as daring as ever. I certainly don't agree that he has settled in some kind of neo-romanticism.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: UB on September 30, 2008, 05:20:11 PM
CR - Good post - thanks!

Where I got my information was from Norgard's own talk in NY (2005 or 6 if I remember right) when the Danish embassy gave a number of concerts featuring his music. I also found his symphony #6 to be a real let down after the first 5.

However since you gave solid examples of how you think I am mistaken, I will get a couple of those works and try to hear what you are suggesting.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: greg on September 30, 2008, 06:41:32 PM
Quote from: UB on September 30, 2008, 05:20:11 PM
I also found his symphony #6 to be a real let down after the first 5.

Keep listening......

(at least, it worked for me)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on October 11, 2008, 11:29:17 AM
Lately I've been enjoying some lesser-known works from Norgard's psychadelic period of the late 1960s. The String Quartet No. 5 "Inscape" uses a scale of microtones within the exceedingly limited compass of B to D, and discovers inside a wealth of possibilities. The String Quartet No. 4 "Dreamscape" has the live string quartet playing against two recorded string quartets on tape, and this must be quite nice to see live.

The most stunning work, however, may be Luna for orchestra. The importance of this piece has often been commented on in the literature, as together with its companion work "Iris" it marks Norgard's first vast use of the infinity series. However, it is talked about more often than it is heard, and that's a great pity. The work consists of isolating snippets of the infinity series grinding against each other as they move through the orchestral fabric. It's remarkable that Norgard wrote music of fragmentary character like this one before the straightforward presentation of the infinity series in Voyage into the Golden Screen a couple of years later.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on October 11, 2008, 12:22:31 PM
Quote from: CRCulver on October 11, 2008, 11:29:17 AM
The most stunning work, however, may be Luna for orchestra. The importance of this piece has often been commented on in the literature, as together with its companion work "Iris" it marks Norgard's first vast use of the infinity series. However, it is talked about more often than it is heard, and that's a great pity. The work consists of isolating snippets of the infinity series grinding against each other as they move through the orchestral fabric. It's remarkable that Norgard wrote music of fragmentary character like this one before the straightforward presentation of the infinity series in Voyage into the Golden Screen a couple of years later.

Yes, Luna is one of my favorites (the short choral piece Flos ut Rosa shares the same melody). I've not heard Iris.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on October 11, 2008, 12:24:56 PM
Quote from: Corey on October 11, 2008, 12:22:31 PM
Yes, Luna is one of my favorites (the short choral piece Flos ut Rosa shares the same melody). I've not heard Iris.

How is that possible? Luna uses only the chromatic infinity series. Norgard didn't discover the peculiar properties of the diatonic infinity series that create the Flos ut Rosa melody until the mid-1970s. (In The Music of Per Norgard: 14 Interpretative Essays there is the composer's own sketch "Flos ut Rosa-Genesis").
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Kullervo on October 11, 2008, 12:26:18 PM
Quote from: CRCulver on October 11, 2008, 12:24:56 PM
How is that possible? Luna uses only the chromatic infinity series. Norgard didn't discover the peculiar properties of the diatonic infinity series that create the Flos ut Rosa melody until the mid-1970s. (In The Music of Per Norgard: 14 Interpretative Essays there is the composer's own sketch "Flos ut Rosa-Genesis").

Hah, sorry, I was thinking of Twilight (it's been awhile since I've heard either of them).
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: greg on October 11, 2008, 03:16:18 PM
Quote from: CRCulver on October 11, 2008, 11:29:17 AM
Lately I've been enjoying some lesser-known works from Norgard's psychadelic period of the late 1960s. The String Quartet No. 5 "Inscape" uses a scale of microtones within the exceedingly limited compass of B to D, and discovers inside a wealth of possibilities. The String Quartet No. 4 "Dreamscape" has the live string quartet playing against two recorded string quartets on tape, and this must be quite nice to see live.

The most stunning work, however, may be Luna for orchestra. The importance of this piece has often been commented on in the literature, as together with its companion work "Iris" it marks Norgard's first vast use of the infinity series. However, it is talked about more often than it is heard, and that's a great pity. The work consists of isolating snippets of the infinity series grinding against each other as they move through the orchestral fabric. It's remarkable that Norgard wrote music of fragmentary character like this one before the straightforward presentation of the infinity series in Voyage into the Golden Screen a couple of years later.
Awesome, somebody else actually listens to those quartets!
I listen to them a lot, you could say...... 4 is my favorite, it's out of this world music- one of my favorite parts is when the all join for some type of glissando sound, and it ends up sounding like an army of violins, and it changes dynamics and holds for about a minute, then gets loud and they stay in a high range while the cello/bass make some kind a weird noise- but the overall effect is magic, like ripping thoughthe air and flying into another dimension (that's the only way I could think of describing it in words).
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on January 30, 2009, 08:15:36 AM
Norgard's Symphony No. 7 had its world premiere last night under the Danish National Radio Symphony Orchestra. I'm sure reviews will appear in Danish newspapers this weekend. The Dacapo recording (hybrid SACD) is already available for purchase!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: karlhenning on January 30, 2009, 08:18:03 AM
Great news!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: bhodges on January 30, 2009, 08:40:32 AM
Yes, great news indeed.  Nørgård's symphonies are high on my "get to know in 2009" list, after enjoying a number of his chamber and choral works. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: greg on January 30, 2009, 11:28:07 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on January 30, 2009, 08:15:36 AM
Norgard's Symphony No. 7 had its world premiere last night under the Danish National Radio Symphony Orchestra. I'm sure reviews will appear in Danish newspapers this weekend. The Dacapo recording (hybrid SACD) is already available for purchase!
Well, finally! I wonder if Mikkel got to go.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on February 02, 2009, 11:14:23 AM
For those curious to hear the new symphony, the broadcast of the premiere can still be heard on Danish Radio's website (http://www.dr.dk/P2/P2+Koncerten/).

If you can't get their stupid online player to work, the second movement can be found on ]on Jorgen Falck's blog (http://falkeskjul.wordpress.com/2009/01/30/musik-pa-solstraler/).

Clearly Norgard has taken his renewed interest in the infinity series much further than in his second harp concerto. We still hear the sort of wheezing motions of Through Thorns, but it's funny how so much of the action is reminiscent of Norgard's early infinity series orchestral work Luna, though diatonic instead of chromatic and rather unpredictable. It's bizarre how the symphony possesses such a C-major feel.

Yesterday, just a couple of days after the world premiere of the Symphony No. 7, there was the world premiere of Tæt På (En lys Time) for percussion ensemble, a two-tone (light-dark-dark-light) infinity series work.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Symphonien on February 03, 2009, 05:17:23 PM
Quote from: CRCulver on February 02, 2009, 11:14:23 AM
For those curious to hear the new symphony, the broadcast of the premiere can still be heard on Danish Radio's website (http://www.dr.dk/P2/P2+Koncerten/).

Thank you very much for the link!

What an awesome program - the premiere of Nørgård's 7th followed by Mahler's 2nd! :o
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: greg on February 03, 2009, 05:33:02 PM
That was one of the best Norgard symphonies I've heard. Can't wait until it comes out on CD!


Quote from: Symphonien on February 03, 2009, 05:17:23 PM
Thank you very much for the link!

What an awesome program - the premiere of Nørgård's 7th followed by Mahler's 2nd! :o
Yeah, what an awesome pair!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: bhodges on February 04, 2009, 10:04:40 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on February 02, 2009, 11:14:23 AM
For those curious to hear the new symphony, the broadcast of the premiere can still be heard on Danish Radio's website (http://www.dr.dk/P2/P2+Koncerten/).

If you can't get their stupid online player to work, the second movement can be found on ]on Jorgen Falck's blog (http://falkeskjul.wordpress.com/2009/01/30/musik-pa-solstraler/).

Thanks so much!  (FYI, the online player worked just fine...but I gather you had some problems?)  Fascinating piece! 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Benji on February 04, 2009, 10:56:21 AM
Yes, thanks for the link! I am listening to it now, and loving it so far (just to the end of the first movement now). I definitely agree with the "C Major feel" comment - It's amazing how a bit of warmth can make modernism infinitely more accessible. I don't feel I'm having to 'work' at all to get it as I do with the 3rd/6th, but immediately I get the feeling that there is such depth that i'll be rewarded for more time spent with it. I'm thrilled by those schmaltzy/jazzy textures about half way through the movement - I felt it could almost break into a Gershwin tune!  ;D

Captivating start to the 2nd movement, really bold.

Yep, excellent stuff so far.  :)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 06, 2009, 03:45:46 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on January 30, 2009, 08:15:36 AM
Norgard's Symphony No. 7 had its world premiere last night under the Danish National Radio Symphony Orchestra. I'm sure reviews will appear in Danish newspapers this weekend. The Dacapo recording (hybrid SACD) is already available for purchase!

CR: Are you sure that's a hybrid? Not clear from this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001MUJSEQ/ref=s9_k2a_c5_t1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=10VXBNY54HQ5HPD0M7XV&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463374953&pf_rd_i=468294

(coupled with the 3rd Symphony BTW)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 08, 2009, 01:15:13 AM
To answer my own question: Dacapo confirmed in an e-mail to me that it's a hybrid.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on February 17, 2009, 10:25:51 PM
There's an interview with Norgard (http://blog.naxos.com/2009/02/17/podcast-an-interview-with-per-norgard/) in this week's Naxos blog podcast. There's nothing in there that a Norgard fan would find especially relevatory--in interviews with the general public Norgard just rehashes many of the same old stories (Sibelius, studying with Holmboe, his childhood "movies") in an Elliott Carter-like fashion. But there's some snippets from the new recording of the Third and Seventh for those who haven't bought the disc yet.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: mikkeljs on March 12, 2009, 10:12:39 AM
Quote from: Gay Cuban Communist on January 30, 2009, 11:28:07 AM
Well, finally! I wonder if Mikkel got to go.

sorry I haven´t been here for a long time. My computer has broke down. Yes I were listening to the premiere on Nørgårds 7th and later Mahler! And afterwards I was talking with Nørgård. I liked the piece very much. It was the most perfect opening program for that fantastic building.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Maciek on September 21, 2009, 01:59:08 PM
There was a new Norgard work (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg357339.html#msg357339) premiered earlier today in Warsaw.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on December 25, 2009, 08:29:11 PM
If anyone's looking for some really current masterworks for SQ, check out Norgard's disc of SQs 7-10. No one carries the torch quite like Norgard does. He is really stretching and exciting and loads of mysterious, utilizing practically every technique we know, and then some. A tour de force. I'm sure I posted this earlier.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Maciek on December 25, 2009, 11:04:08 PM
I agree. I haven't got any recordings, but the all the SQs I've heard live were fantastic.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on April 27, 2010, 10:04:19 PM
I have no idea how long it will be up, but at the Danmarks Radio (http://www.dr.dk/P2/P2+Koncerten/Koncerter/2010/nielsennorgard.htm) website one can hear Norgard's recent 3 Scenes for Percussion and Ensemble, his wind quintet Whirls World and an interview with the composer.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: UB on April 27, 2010, 10:47:51 PM
Thanks for the links...
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on September 15, 2010, 05:38:56 AM
The website of Danmarks Radio (http://www.dr.dk/P2/Artikler/Kunstnere/2010/01/20133857.htm) still features some audio samples of Norgard's Cello Concerto No. 2 "Momentum" which was broadcasted earlier this year.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on January 18, 2011, 02:50:46 AM
Tomorrow evening, January 19 the Finnish RSO will perform Norgard's Symphony No. 6. You may be able to listen in over the internet. Details at the RSO's website (http://yle.fi/rso/?lang=eng).
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on January 20, 2011, 07:50:11 AM
Anyone really deep into the Norgard discography? I'm looking for some not-so-obvious recommends.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: greg on January 22, 2011, 05:50:24 PM
Can't escape the CDCD, huh?...
As for not-so-obvious, have you listened to I Ching or the first 6 String Quartets? Very fine stuff.  8)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on January 25, 2011, 06:28:06 AM
Helsingin Sanomat has reported that Norgard's Symphony No. 8 will be premiered in Helsinki in Fall 2012.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on October 31, 2011, 10:31:18 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on January 20, 2011, 07:50:11 AM
Anyone really deep into the Norgard discography? I'm looking for some not-so-obvious recommends.

Umm... maybe you should start with Symphony No.3. I was just literally BLOWN AWAY by this Messiaen/Xenakis/Grisey with choir piece that I've held off on for so long.

What can I say but that this was the most positive and life affirming creation music I've ever heard, so neatly fitting in between the Composers listed above, that hasn't been thought by all you already?

It sounds like a world of icy monolithic halls meeting verdant jungles, and the icy steam,... the HotIce, if you will, haha... wow,... truly this work ties so much other stuff together.

You can put me in the 'slightly disconcerted by the great use of the choir but fairly got used to it by the end' camp. Certainly I could have settled for something less, but, as it stands, it makes me want to go back for more. Who am I to critique this?

Really, I had totally forgot about this piece, and that I've purposely held off from YouTube, and, I am soooo impressed. I mean, it's 50mins long, and there's stuff going on the whole time, and it's ALL GREAT! :-* :-*

I haven't gone back over the Thread, but will; I feel like a little girl jumping up and down, haha... I'm gushing :-[




The only 'letdown' on the Chandos recording, that I noticed, was what appeared to be clipping at certain times when the orchestra and choir were both at 100%... I think the clipping was in the choir, but, it really didn't mar the image that bad. The recording itself reminds me of a plush Denon... it totally lends itself to the atmosphere, and Segerstam is totally inside the interpretation. I've heard this version still trumps the new one coupled with No.7, though that one's recording is superior?


BOTTOM LINE: STOP THE PRESSES... Norgard's 3rd is State of the Art Creation Music!! it's... it's... (breaks down in superlatives)...

:-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*



Haven't yet got into the PC. Will haaave to get 4/5, and go from there... or 6... or the Violin Concerto...

pant pant :P
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 01, 2011, 04:32:08 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on October 31, 2011, 10:31:18 PM

It sounds like a world of icy monolithic halls meeting verdant jungles, and the icy steam,... the HotIce, if you will, haha... wow,... truly this work ties so much other stuff together.

Yes indeedy  :) I also "forgot about" this work for a long while - in the sense that I tried it out years ago, was puzzled/bored, and laid it aside. I came back to it 2 years ago, and it started to make sense.

Perhaps it's the contemporary equivalent of an earlier 3rd Symphony: Mahler's. Unfortunately Norgard didn't put cute little titles on the episodes ("Pan awakens," "What the animals tell me"), so one has to dig a bit more.

Going back another hundred years: is it Haydn's Creation updated for our time?

Unfortunately I'm not really getting on with N's other works at this time (heard the 6th Sym. a couple of times, no head or tail yet). But I'll stick with it.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Coco on November 01, 2011, 04:43:14 AM
I like 6 a lot — The first movement feels a bit like it would if airplanes went underground instead of above, like a descent into the maelstrom. The second movement is like a dark plain with strange animals calling in the distance, and the third movement is some sort of warped alternate-dimensional mambo.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 01, 2011, 05:19:51 AM
I will bear these descriptions in mind the next time I listen. Looking out for the animals should be fun.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Coco on November 01, 2011, 05:38:38 AM
Ha, I admit my description is fanciful but those were the first things that came to mind when I thought to describe that symphony.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on November 01, 2011, 06:10:40 AM
Quote from: Coco on November 01, 2011, 05:38:38 AM
Ha, I admit my description is fanciful but those were the first things that came to mind when I thought to describe that symphony.

The 3rd was nothing if not imaginatively descriptive! ;) I'm reminded of the ice cave scene from Logan's Run, haha.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on November 01, 2011, 11:40:24 AM
Finally got around to the Piano Concerto.

Once again, I am reminded of Xenakis and Messiaen, perhaps with a dose of Gloria Coates's alien landscape. This piece is very...mm...boiiing-y, I think, very rhythmically oriented (there is even a part for 4 metronomes!), with a very wild harmonic palette. The piano part reminds me of Messiaen's obstinacy, very rigid and clocked in. Overall, I just felt as if I were listening to a very Modern piece indeed, brimming with forwardness.

The piano also plays quite obsessively with the deepest register, which yields loads of fun. This actually 'sounds' all pretty easy on the ears, and there is a spikiness at times,... I'd sum it up as a Messiaenic piece extolling the glories of creation, but with more of the spikiness of later Messiaen.

I'm certainly up for the VC now! ;)

(btw- I'm almost afraaaid to listen to the 3rd right away it's so good)

Oh, btw, silly question (but with absolutely grave intent!) about the Chandos 3rd. Did/Does it come with a white cd tray, or a regular dark tray? I got a white tray with what appears to be a cut-out,... but, in the spirit of true CDCDCD, I traded the white tray for a regular one from a :o :o Linda Ronstadt cd (unclean! :o unclean! :o). But,... I must know ???...
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 01, 2011, 09:39:50 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on November 01, 2011, 11:40:24 AM
Finally got around to the Piano Concerto.

You mean the so-called Concerto in due tempi? I still haven't listened to that one all the way thru. Another assignment for me  :)

QuoteOh, btw, silly question (but with absolutely grave intent!) about the Chandos 3rd. Did/Does it come with a white cd tray, or a regular dark tray? I got a white tray with what appears to be a cut-out,... but, in the spirit of true CDCDCD, I traded the white tray for a regular one from a :o :o Linda Ronstadt cd (unclean! :o unclean! :o). But,... I must know ???...

Mine just has the normal dark tray. I hope the white tray didn't detract from your enjoyment of the music.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: lescamil on November 01, 2011, 10:05:40 PM
The Concerto in Due Tempi is perhaps one of Nørgård's most visceral works. Just make your way to that cadenza on the bottom octave of the piano halfway through the work and see for yourself. It doesn't have as much of that shimmer and sheen that you see in a lot of works written around that time, like the symphonies. It reminds me almost of his 7th symphony, written only a couple of years ago. Also, the addition of the "anti-soloist" in the alto-saxophone is particularly poignant. It goes really well with the jabbing figures in both the pianos and strings.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 02, 2011, 08:02:00 AM
OK I've finally listened to the concerto (after owning the disc for years and totally ignoring it. See how this forum helps one to be an active listener?), and I must say it's a captivating work. That deep dark cadenza in the middle is a highlight, but there's lots of interesting stuff going on here.

I agree with snyprrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr's characterization, as somehow between Messiaen and Xenakis...but I feel the Xenakis side dominates slightly, due to an often aggressive and spiky sound.

The slightly "Javanese"-sounding coda also reminds me a bit of the ending of Lutoslawski's 3rd Sym...but there's no question Norgard is very much his own man stylistically. I look forward to going back to this one.

BTW, any1 want to give a rundown on PN's other concerti? I've got my eye on the ones for violin.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on November 02, 2011, 06:30:20 PM
Quote from: Velimir on November 02, 2011, 08:02:00 AM
OK I've finally listened to the concerto (after owning the disc for years and totally ignoring it. See how this forum helps one to be an active listener?), and I must say it's a captivating work. That deep dark cadenza in the middle is a highlight, but there's lots of interesting stuff going on here.

I agree with snyprrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr's characterization, as somehow between Messiaen and Xenakis...but I feel the Xenakis side dominates slightly, due to an often aggressive and spiky sound.

The slightly "Javanese"-sounding coda also reminds me a bit of the ending of Lutoslawski's 3rd Sym...but there's no question Norgard is very much his own man stylistically. I look forward to going back to this one.

BTW, any1 want to give a rundown on PN's other concerti? I've got my eye on the ones for violin.
Quote from: lescamil on November 01, 2011, 10:05:40 PM
The Concerto in Due Tempi is perhaps one of Nørgård's most visceral works. Just make your way to that cadenza on the bottom octave of the piano halfway through the work and see for yourself. It doesn't have as much of that shimmer and sheen that you see in a lot of works written around that time, like the symphonies. It reminds me almost of his 7th symphony, written only a couple of years ago. Also, the addition of the "anti-soloist" in the alto-saxophone is particularly poignant. It goes really well with the jabbing figures in both the pianos and strings.

Both of you sound like you heard the exact same piece as I! ;) There certainly is a forward movement to this piece that practically sweeps you along into its very unique soundworld. Hindemith as the Borg?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 02, 2011, 10:46:48 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on November 02, 2011, 06:30:20 PM
Both of you sound like you heard the exact same piece as I! ;) There certainly is a forward movement to this piece that practically sweeps you along into its very unique soundworld.

You bet.  :)  If I have time tonight, I plan to revisit the concerto and bask in that "very unique soundworld". (Makes me wonder what other great stuff I have in my collection that I haven't listened to yet.) I followed up the cto. by listening to the first mvt. of the 3rd Symphony. Snip, were you perchance reading Coleridge while listening to it? Something about your response reminds me:

Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,
To such a deep delight 'twould win me,
That with music loud and long,
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome! those caves of ice!


QuoteHindemith as the Borg?

I don't quite get what you mean here  ???
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on November 03, 2011, 06:48:18 AM
Quote from: Velimir on November 02, 2011, 10:46:48 PM
You bet.  :)  If I have time tonight, I plan to revisit the concerto and bask in that "very unique soundworld". (Makes me wonder what other great stuff I have in my collection that I haven't listened to yet.) I followed up the cto. by listening to the first mvt. of the 3rd Symphony. Snip, were you perchance reading Coleridge while listening to it? Something about your response reminds me:

Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,
To such a deep delight 'twould win me,
That with music loud and long,
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome! those caves of ice!


I don't quite get what you mean here  ???

Yes, Shangri-la indeed!!


The other comment: I thought the PC was very... oh, gosh, maybe I shouldn't even try. I'm sure I won't convince anyone mentioning Hindemith in this Thread, haha! ;) Maybe I meant that the PC was very well put together, like Hindemith's work ethic, but the 'sound' is closer to Gloria Coates's alien landscapes (the Klingon Princess!).
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: mjwal on November 03, 2011, 01:07:21 PM
Symphonies 3-7, check, SQs, check, haven't heard the piano concerto yet but will soon - anybody else know and appreciate (or not) Nuit des Hommes? I suppose that you need to be into Guillaume Apollinaire, but it really is the most marvellous evocation of the world that led up to WW1 and then the war itself, its dislocation, its annunciation of terror, je veux vivre inhumain, there's plenty of that late SQ style in it too together with eery electronically generated sounds, Wilhelm's lover Alice mutates into kAli, the goddess of blood and destruction - you get the idea, it's mad, sad and freaky, like parts of Gravity's Rainbow done by a Xenakis on absinthe and/or opium. It's in French but the booklet gives the texts in English and other languages.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 04, 2011, 08:41:20 AM
further Norgard exploration

As promised, I listened to the PC again. It was just as good as the first time.  :D

Then I listened to the 6th Symphony. I think I'm gradually getting more of a handle on it, but it is not easy music; not everything makes sense yet. BTW, does this piece remind anyone else of Carter's Symphonia? Overall conception and progression sounds very similar, and they were composed within a couple years of each other.

I've also put this disc in my shopping cart:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OkH%2BAFzUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I capped off this Danish listening day with Holmboe's 2 scintillating brass quintets, played by Art of Brass Copenhagen.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche: Symphony 5
Post by: snyprrr on November 05, 2011, 08:51:12 PM
Symphony 5

:o :o :o :o
:o :o :o :o
:o :o :o :o

THIS IS AWESOME MUSIC!!!

:o :o :o :o

The reviews kept saying this was his most enigmatic Symphony, but, to me it sounds like a giant transcribed drum solo! I almost got to the end before I had to turn it off, but, as one stream of continuous music, it is so mysterious and vigorous at the same time as to defy description. I hear all kinds of traces of Xenakean rigor, but the fantasy is Norgard's own, and it is wondrously complex and ear tingling the whole time. WOW!!

Messiaen on 10 hits of LSD is the best I can do! :P :-* Watch out, this stuff might tap into your pineal! AWESOME!!!!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche: Symphony 5
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 06, 2011, 12:51:19 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on November 05, 2011, 08:51:12 PM
Symphony 5
THIS IS AWESOME MUSIC!!!

Well, I may have to add that one to my cart, too  :) I was slightly put off by some reviews I read, but if The Snip says it's AWESOME, maybe I'd better pay attention.

BTW, how's the 4th Symphony?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche: Symphony 5
Post by: snyprrr on November 06, 2011, 04:59:45 AM
Quote from: Velimir on November 06, 2011, 12:51:19 AM
Well, I may have to add that one to my cart, too  :) I was slightly put off by some reviews I read, but if The Snip says it's AWESOME, maybe I'd better pay attention.

BTW, how's the 4th Symphony?

Hey, the whole cd is ka-pow-ee. Honestly, I can barely remember 4 after 5, but I was enjoying it in the car, I know that! :-[ ;D I've still got Norgardian bubbles in my head from last night...wow, I wish I had time today :'(...

Honestly, if you read the same reviews on Amazon that I did (including our own CRCulver?), and then hear the piece, you might also wonder. I simply followed the music incident by incident and found it an incredible ride. It also starts very uniquely... it really just compels you along. ok, enough priase, haha! ;)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche: Symphony 5
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 06, 2011, 10:07:01 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on November 06, 2011, 04:59:45 AM
Honestly, if you read the same reviews on Amazon that I did (including our own CRCulver?), and then hear the piece, you might also wonder. I simply followed the music incident by incident and found it an incredible ride. It also starts very uniquely... it really just compels you along. ok, enough priase, haha! ;)

Yes, I read Culver's review. It left me thinking that this symphony is a little too "advanced" for someone who's not deeply into Norgard, and I'm still puzzling him out. On the other hand, I'm always up for a sonic adventure.  :)

Norgard seems like a very interesting composer, even when I don't like or understand what he's doing. I hear links to various other composers, but still a very distinctive voice of his own.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche: Symphony 5
Post by: snyprrr on November 06, 2011, 06:22:18 PM
Quote from: Velimir on November 06, 2011, 10:07:01 AM
Yes, I read Culver's review. It left me thinking that this symphony is a little too "advanced" for someone who's not deeply into Norgard, and I'm still puzzling him out. On the other hand, I'm always up for a sonic adventure.  :)

Norgard seems like a very interesting composer, even when I don't like or understand what he's doing. I hear links to various other composers, but still a very distinctive voice of his own.

Norgard seems to be operating with the most amount of actual freedom of anyone I've heard. Kon-Tiki! ;)

I think the problem with the 5th is that it actually delivers the goods,...and some of us aren't prepared for that! ;)

I guess I'm resigned to getting the 6th ASAP! :'( ;D
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on November 07, 2011, 03:30:59 AM
I stand by my comment that the Fifth is Nørgård's most enigmatic symphony. To really understand the development of this symphony, one ought to be familiar with his 1950s works, Waves or I Ching for solo percussion, and the string quartet Tintinnabulary. The symphony is an expansion of the motifs and games of perception found there. It's a very intertextual piece -- it would be like listening to Berio's Sinfonia without knowing who Mahler is.

Now, you may enjoy the piece just as some bold musical flow, appealing to the same part of you that likes Xenakis' visceral impact, but that's not how the composer intended it to be heard. And Nørgård is sort of sensitive about people praising his work while missing the very elements he wanted to communicate (see his account of the night Luna was premiered, for instance). 
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: ibanezmonster on November 07, 2011, 05:08:18 AM
It's too bad the guy is behind the times technologically- if he weren't so, he could have easily joined the forum and posted a thing or two about his music, which would be an interesting read. (There is his website, which is very informative, but it would be more fun talking to him directly).  8)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on November 07, 2011, 06:26:34 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on November 07, 2011, 03:30:59 AM
I stand by my comment that the Fifth is Nørgård's most enigmatic symphony. To really understand the development of this symphony, one ought to be familiar with his 1950s works, Waves or I Ching for solo percussion, and the string quartet Tintinnabulary. The symphony is an expansion of the motifs and games of perception found there. It's a very intertextual piece -- it would be like listening to Berio's Sinfonia without knowing who Mahler is.

Now, you may enjoy the piece just as some bold musical flow, appealing to the same part of you that likes Xenakis' visceral impact, but that's not how the composer intended it to be heard. And Nørgård is sort of sensitive about people praising his work while missing the very elements he wanted to communicate (see his account of the night Luna was premiered, for instance).

I can appreciate that, but Norgard must understand that at some point in time, soooomeone will come across this cd as a lark, and will have to interpret his music without a 'programme', and may just like the music for the sounds hitting their ears.

Still, I remember from your review that you said one needed to hear the earlier Symphony 1, and so on, and, now I am intrigued to hear No.5 as Norgard intended.

And still also, I just found that I could 'follow' the argument from moment to moment, without 'knowing' anything, and the entire piece just came off as...well... a Masterpiece.

Surely, when you've gone as far 'out there' as Norgard has done here, don't you leave us common people behind? I mean, WHO WHO WHO would hear this thing for the first time, and say, "Gosh, there's that thing from I Ching"?... unless of course they had already been an acolyte.

Now, is Norgard saying just that there are SONIC interconnections, or is he implying a deeper, PHILOSOPHIC (now I'm confusing myself!,haha)

Is there another piece of music that you know of, that has similar intentions, that might clarify these 'enigmatic' aspects? (other Composers)


I certainly don't want to be ONLY enjoying this music on a...ugh :o, God forbid...grade school level :-[... when there are greater thoughts going on. Of course, I've only been through it once... and NOW... I'm actually quite intimidated by another hearing.

However... onward forward! ;)



btw CRCulver... I've said before how much I appreciate your reviews (along with 'scarecrow' 'discophage' 'hutch/autonemous'(?)), so, I raise my cup 'o tea to ya!! Thanks!! ;) :-*

Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on November 20, 2011, 05:29:35 AM
SYMPHONY NO.6


Now I have Syms. 3-6, all within a month! No.6 I found to be a quite lush affair indeed, as if ALL Messiaen were playing at the same time! Perhaps its profile wasn't as outre as No.5, but, if you had told me that No.6 was indeed No.3, I certainly would still have called it a Masterpiece.

Some of those descending string glissandos reminded me of Penderecki's Dream of Jacob. Anyhow, there is so much going on here, it will surely take a while to get into this one.

However, I REALLY liked the other piece on this Chandos cd. It starts off with subterranean brass and only gets better and better. A lot of Norgard sounds to me like the Xenakean processes filtered through a more imaginative, human demeanor, with the audacious sounds of Messiaen added in abundance, with also the spectral, and,... and,... and,...

whew! ;)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: lescamil on November 20, 2011, 09:12:34 AM
Have you gotten to Symphony No. 7 yet?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on November 20, 2011, 12:39:24 PM
Quote from: lescamil on November 20, 2011, 09:12:34 AM
Have you gotten to Symphony No. 7 yet?

No. I might have to wait on YouTube for that. What do you think?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on November 20, 2011, 06:34:13 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on November 20, 2011, 12:39:24 PM
No. I might have to wait on YouTube for that. What do you think?

I'd rather wait for a Chandos than immediately get the DaCapo. But I digress...


Listened to String Quartet No.8 tonight after having been exposed to these Symphonies for a few weeks, and yes!, it makes a lot more sonic sense to my ears now. I hear all the wildness of portions of the bigger pieces here in this SQ. It's really nice how Norgard gets that spectral sound yet keeps things moving in unpredictable directions.


I'll admit that these Symphonies have an almost Narcotic Quality that makes me easily take them for granted, especially one so well integrated as No.6. I played No.5 for a 'normie' as she said it sounded like what's going on inside one's head! OK!, I can see that. ;) Perhaps Norgard just dreams this stuff and has a MIDI cable plug-in a la The Matrix? Anyhow, I could be going gaga over Norgard here, and I just want to make sure I'm getting more than just the sonic spectacular.

Thanks also to Norgard for being a Great Communicator, in that his Music is pretty well as accessable(sic) as one might fancy for High Modernism. I mean, who comes close? Salonen obviously picked up on this stuff, no?

I'm just gushing... Norgard's 'The Man', no doubt! ;) ;D

Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: lescamil on November 20, 2011, 08:14:59 PM
The seventh symphony is one that I haven't completely wrapped my head around. I like it, but I haven't yet been able to get as familiar with it as with some of the others. I really like the inclusion of the 12 tuned toms in the outer movements. It gives it almost a sort of exotic, primal sound. Maybe I'll report back later with some other thoughts on it, once I get around to it more.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on January 11, 2012, 03:22:21 AM
BIS has released a disc (http://bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-CD-1872) featuring new recordings of Nørgård's two violin concertos as well as "Spaces of Time" for piano and orchestra. I'm particularly interested in the latter, as it was the first of the composer's works to feature a "sound emblem", a prominent instrumental voice in the ensemble that is not, however, concertante.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: DieNacht on January 11, 2012, 04:35:28 AM
Interesting, thanks, I have an old tape of "Spaces of Time" and will give it a listen, plus definitely look out for the new BIS-issue ...
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on January 11, 2012, 07:10:03 AM
In the Chandos recording of Sym.3, does anyone else hear a little 'clipping' of the brass during the first, upward-scale,... within the first five minutes?


btw- do the BIS samples sound thinner than the Chandos VC?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on January 11, 2012, 07:11:25 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on January 11, 2012, 07:10:03 AM
btw- do the BIS samples sound thinner than the Chandos VC?

The Chandos recording is the original version for violin and symphony orchestra. The BIS recording is of the arrangement for violin and chamber orchestra.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on January 11, 2012, 07:12:34 AM
Quote from: lescamil on November 20, 2011, 08:14:59 PM
The seventh symphony is one that I haven't completely wrapped my head around. I like it, but I haven't yet been able to get as familiar with it as with some of the others. I really like the inclusion of the 12 tuned toms in the outer movements. It gives it almost a sort of exotic, primal sound. Maybe I'll report back later with some other thoughts on it, once I get around to it more.

7 is on YT


I really liked it, and yes, the tom-toms do add a kind of 'Avatar planet', 'forest spirits' kind of feel (Ewoks!!): a very verdant sounding music, thick with foliage, dark green.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on January 19, 2012, 03:42:40 PM
Thanks for the news, but I find it somewhat disconcerting that the concert schedule is released (and booking for it is opened!) well over a year in advance. By the time I'll know whether I can travel that distance, I'm not sure there will be any availability.

Is anyone here corresponding with Nørgård at the moment and willing to ask him what the concerns of the String Quartet No. 11 are?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on February 29, 2012, 11:45:49 AM
If you are a member of the Demonoid torrent community, there's a radio recording of Nørgård's Cello Concerto No. 2 "Momentum" available. It's remarkable how neoclassical Nørgård sounds here. Listeners who prefer the fairly traditional mid-century harmonies of Nørgård's mentor Vagn Holmboe will find this work quite unthreatening. But nonetheless, all those lovely lines continue to be based on Nørgård's recent interest in new uses of the infinity series, so there's still complexity to his writing (and the perennial obsession with interference).
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on March 01, 2012, 07:04:46 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on February 29, 2012, 11:45:49 AM
If you are a member of the Demonoid torrent community, there's a radio recording of Nørgård's Cello Concerto No. 2 "Momentum" available. It's remarkable how neoclassical Nørgård sounds here. Listeners who prefer the fairly traditional mid-century harmonies of Nørgård's mentor Vagn Holmboe will find this work quite unthreatening. But nonetheless, all those lovely lines continue to be based on Nørgård's recent interest in new uses of the infinity series, so there's still complexity to his writing (and the perennial obsession with interference).

Just listened again to No.5. What a monster it is! I can't imagine a more imaginative work,... the full percussion section is used with such an expert hand,...eh, I'm unqualified this morning to write, but

nevermind! ::)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: kentel on March 01, 2012, 01:21:44 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on March 01, 2012, 07:04:46 AM
Just listened again to No.5. What a monster it is! I can't imagine a more imaginative work,... the full percussion section is used with such an expert hand,...eh, I'm unqualified this morning to write, but

nevermind! ::)

Nørgård is a genius.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on March 01, 2012, 07:23:33 PM
Quote from: kentel on March 01, 2012, 01:21:44 PM
Nørgård is a genius.

I mean, really... what's there to say?

I can say that today I heard new stuff in my head... new, never before heard sounds, because of 5 last night!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: kentel on March 01, 2012, 11:49:06 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on March 01, 2012, 07:23:33 PM
I mean, really... what's there to say?

I can say that today I heard new stuff in my head... new, never before heard sounds, because of 5 last night!

If you consider the 7 symphonies : each of them is a masterwork, each is different from the others, and each shows an incredible capacity to imagine new music worlds. In fact, all in all, I could hardly find any piece written by Nørgård which is disappointing. There are some, but 90% of the time, the guy is at the very top.

If I was to choose 10 pieces within his musical production (I'm not but I'll do it anyway) :

Symphony nr.3
Symphony nr.6
Symphony nr.7
Violin Concerto n°1 "Helle Nacht"
Violin Concerto n°2 "Borderline"
String Quartet nr.8 "Night Descending like Smoke"
King, Queen and Ace (for orchestra)
Twilight (for orchestra)
The Secret Melody (for solo violin)
Circus City (for percussions)


... and it was hard to sacrify some pieces for this list (Dreamplay, Luna, Symphonies 2 & 5, Quartets 4,5,7 & 9, Nova Genitura, etc.)

among the disappointing ones, I would mention some pieces for guitar (Clubs among Jokers, Early Morn, Returns), some little ones for choir and some pieces of youth for piano. But you really have to look for them, that's maximum 1/10th of his production.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 02, 2012, 12:52:37 AM
Quote from: kentel on March 01, 2012, 11:49:06 PM

If I was to choose 10 pieces within his musical production (I'm not but I'll do it anyway) : [useful list snipped]

I notice the 4th Symphony is absent from any of your lists. Do you have an opinion on it? I recently bought the Chandos of syms 4/5 (largely thanks to the snyprrrrrrrrr's hyper-enthusiastic posts) but I haven't listened to it yet. I have to wait till I'm in that "special" mood.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on March 02, 2012, 05:31:01 AM
Quote from: Velimir on March 02, 2012, 12:52:37 AM
I notice the 4th Symphony is absent from any of your lists. Do you have an opinion on it? I recently bought the Chandos of syms 4/5 (largely thanks to the snyprrrrrrrrr's hyper-enthusiastic posts) but I haven't listened to it yet. I have to wait till I'm in that "special" mood.

Hey, don't bogart that joint m'friend! ;)




uh... just kidding?...I can only imagine the,... er, blowback, haha!!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: kentel on March 02, 2012, 07:07:42 AM
Quote from: Velimir on March 02, 2012, 12:52:37 AM
I notice the 4th Symphony is absent from any of your lists. Do you have an opinion on it? I recently bought the Chandos of syms 4/5 (largely thanks to the snyprrrrrrrrr's hyper-enthusiastic posts) but I haven't listened to it yet. I have to wait till I'm in that "special" mood.

Why did I skip the 4th... It's obviously very good, more intellectual than the others maybe, a little dryer... Each symphony is different; I don't know if snyprrr would agree with this comment, but to me Nørgård's 4th is a little bit like Sibelius' 4th : more austere, more distanciated, more intellectual than the 6 others. Not the one you would put on the top of a ranking, not the easiest to listen to, although very beautiful in its own way.

I think you really have to listen to all of them to form an opinion. Maybe the first is the less interesting because it' is overshadowed by Holmboe's influence. But still a very good symphony though.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: DieNacht on March 09, 2012, 09:18:49 AM
Nørgård turns 80 this year and he is being celebrated at various events in Denmark. This magazine page lists some of the domestic events (in Danish):

http://www.klassisk.org/per_noergaard_2012.php

A "coffee-table" book with personal interviews is planned for release in summer (May?) by the Edition Wilhelm Hansen publishers.

His 8th Symphony will be performed in mid-November at DR-Byen, having received its premiere in Helsinki in the autumn.

A web-archive will present allegedly around 400 written articles, drawings etc. by Nørgård also. It must be assumed that they will primarily be in Danish. A small exhibition at the Royal Library "Diamanten" in Copenhagen will present some of the originals in relation to the webarchive, launched in summer. Apparently he had a talent for drawing too, saying that if he hadn´t been able to live from composing, he´d probably chosen to become a drawing artist.

EDIT: According to websites, the 8th Symphony will also be performed and recorded by the Vienna Philharmonic later this year. The conductor is said to be John Storgårds.

Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: kentel on March 09, 2012, 09:36:18 AM
Quote from: DieNacht on March 09, 2012, 09:18:49 AM
Nørgård turns 80 this year and he is being celebrated at various events in Denmark. This magazine page lists some of the domestic events (in Danish):

http://www.klassisk.org/per_noergaard_2012.php

A "coffee-table" book with personal interviews is planned for release in summer (May?) by the Edition Wilhelm Hansen publishers.

His 8th Symphony will be performed in mid-November at DR-Byen, having received its premiere in Helsinki in the autumn.

A web-archive will present allegedly around 400 written articles, drawings etc. by Nørgård also. It must be assumed that they wil primarily be in Danish. A small exhibition at the Royal Library "Diamanten" in Copenhagen will present some of the originals. Apparently he had a talent for drawing too, saying that if he hadn´t been able to live from composing, he´d probably chosen to become a drawing artist.

Tak skal du have, det lyder spændende  :)

I'm looking forward to hear his 8th symphony, each of them has been more beautiful than the previous one, so I hope he will there reach the peak of his genius.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: DieNacht on March 09, 2012, 09:45:02 AM
QuoteTak skal du have, det lyder spændende 

Faultless Danish - how come ?  ??? :)

Nørgård seems to be in good shape, he is doing interviews etc. these days, so there are good chances he will compose a lot more music.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: kentel on March 09, 2012, 11:01:08 AM
Quote from: DieNacht on March 09, 2012, 09:45:02 AM
Faultless Danish - how come ?  ??? :)

That's my job  :D

Quote from: DieNacht on March 09, 2012, 09:45:02 AMNørgård seems to be in good shape, he is doing interviews etc. these days, so there are good chances he will compose a lot more music.

Good to hear ! It would be great to have a 9th symphony...

I can see on the webpage you mentioned that there's a new rendering of his 1st Violin Concerto which should have been released in January...
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on March 09, 2012, 11:17:47 AM
Quote from: kentel on March 09, 2012, 11:01:08 AM
I can see on the webpage you mentioned that there's a new rendering of his 1st Violin Concerto which should have been released in January...

I announced it here above in this thread, and subsequently reviewed (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006EMSNO8?ie=UTF8&tag=3636363-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B006EMSNO8) it at Amazon. I found it a disappointment, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 11:22:28 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on March 09, 2012, 11:17:47 AM
I announced it here above in this thread, and subsequently reviewed (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006EMSNO8?ie=UTF8&tag=3636363-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B006EMSNO8) it at Amazon. I found it a disappointment, unfortunately.

I've read a lot of your reviews. It takes a lot to make you happy apparently. I don't even understand why you write some of the reviews you did when it's clear that you never liked the music to begin with?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: kentel on March 09, 2012, 11:29:04 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 11:22:28 AM
I've read a lot of your reviews. It takes a lot to make you happy apparently. I don't even understand why you write some of the reviews you did when it's clear that you never liked the music to begin with?

He actually wrote : "Helle Nacht" is a very accessible work with well-nigh infinite replay value, and highly recommended." !  :)

Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 11:30:55 AM
Quote from: kentel on March 09, 2012, 11:29:04 AM
He actually wrote : "Helle Nacht" is a very accessible work with well-nigh infinite replay value, and highly recommended." !  :)

Oh, he wrote something positive? That's a first. :)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: kentel on March 09, 2012, 11:32:26 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on March 09, 2012, 11:17:47 AM
I announced it here above in this thread, and subsequently reviewed (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006EMSNO8?ie=UTF8&tag=3636363-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B006EMSNO8) it at Amazon. I found it a disappointment, unfortunately.

I don't know if I will agree, but I like the style of your comment : rigorous, well-argued and clear.

"But it pains me to say that this particular recording of "Helle Nacht" is a disappointment. The piece here appears in an arrangement for chamber orchestra, and it lacks the power of the original. Gupta's pacing is sluggish and any sense of forward momentum is lost. "Helle Nacht" is best heard on a Chandos disc in the original version, with a conductor and ensemble who really know what they are doing.

that's actually what I wanted to know. Thanks.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: kentel on March 09, 2012, 11:33:01 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 11:30:55 AM
Oh, he wrote something positive? That's a first. :)

I'm lucky, it's the first time that I read one of his comments  :D
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 11:37:42 AM
Quote from: kentel on March 09, 2012, 11:33:01 AM
I'm lucky, it's the first time that I read one of his comments  :D

You should read many of his Amazon reviews. Some of them, especially his Rautavaara reviews continue to baffle me. Usually someone will state they don't like x composer's music, but the problem with Mr. Culver is he continues to write essentially the same review over and over again about how he doesn't like Rautavaara's music. It's like this: WE GET THE POINT!!! Anyway, I just think he would save himself and everybody a lot time by just sticking to writing reviews about music he actually likes.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: kentel on March 09, 2012, 11:52:30 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 11:37:42 AM
You should read many of his Amazon reviews. Some of them, especially his Rautavaara reviews continue to baffle me. Usually someone will state they don't like x composer's music, but the problem with Mr. Culver is he continues to write essentially the same review over and over again about how he doesn't like Rautavaara's music. It's like this: WE GET THE POINT!!! Anyway, I just think he would save himself and everybody a lot time by just sticking to writing reviews about music he actually likes.

I happen to enjoy Rautavaara's music (not everything, but much of it) : I think I'll read these reviews, it's always interesting to read contrary opinions  :D
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on March 09, 2012, 11:59:45 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 11:22:28 AM
I've read a lot of your reviews. It takes a lot to make you happy apparently. I don't even understand why you write some of the reviews you did when it's clear that you never liked the music to begin with?

What a strange complaint. The vast majority of my reviews are three stars and above. The review I wrote for the aforementioned Norgard disc said the material was excellent but the performances were inferior to others available elsewhere. That's pretty typical of classical reviewing on Amazon.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 12:04:05 PM
Quote from: kentel on March 09, 2012, 11:52:30 AM
I happen to enjoy Rautavaara's music (not everything, but much of it) : I think I'll read these reviews, it's always interesting to read contrary opinions  :D

It's not that I don't mind Mr. Culver writing negative reviews, it's just that the ones he's written on Rautavaara, which is many of them by the way, seem to be completely jaded by the fact that it's clear that he doesn't like his music and he pretty much let's the reader know from the beginning.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on March 09, 2012, 12:05:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 12:04:05 PM
It's not that I don't mind Mr. Culver writing negative reviews, it's just that the ones he's written on Rautavaara, which is many of them by the way, seem to be completely jaded by the fact that it's clear that he doesn't like his music and he pretty much let's the reader know from the beginning.

You seem to be ignoring the many positive comments I've made about Rautavaara's music. The negative reviews are generally for post-1980 works that have appalled much of the composer's public here in Finland too. For works before that, I've noted that quite are few are entertaining.

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 11:37:42 AM
Anyway, I just think he would save himself and everybody a lot time by just sticking to writing reviews about music he actually likes.

If people only wrote reviews about music they actually like, all Amazon reviews would be positive, and then the review system would be useless. Of course, I don't write reviews with much of an aim towards guiding other shoppers (except for a non-existent ideal reader who has exactly the same taste as mine). But over the years my Rautavaara reviews have provoked some e-mails by people who 1) upon pirating the music and hearing it for free, were grateful to my reviews for saving them a purchase, or 2) amassed a collection, eventually came to regret it, and then told me I was right all along and now don't know what to do with so many discs.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 12:16:46 PM
Quote from: CRCulver on March 09, 2012, 12:05:43 PM
You seem to be ignoring the many positive comments I've made about Rautavaara's music.

If people only wrote reviews about music they actually like, all Amazon reviews would be positive, and then the review system would be useless. Of course, I don't write reviews with much of an aim towards guiding other shoppers (except for a non-existent ideal reader who has exactly the same taste as mine). But over the years my Rautavaara reviews have provoked some e-mails by people who 1) upon pirating the music and hearing it for free, were grateful to my reviews for saving them a purchase, or 2) amassed a collection, eventually came to regret it, and then told me I was right all along and now don't know what to do with so many discs.

Blah...blah...blah....yeah you're right and we're all wrong. Your reviews are just one giant ego trip gone haywire.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on March 09, 2012, 12:20:29 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 12:16:46 PM
Blah...blah...blah....yeah you're right and we're all wrong. Your reviews are just one giant ego trip gone haywire.

I don't see how saying that some people agree with me equates to a claim that everyone besides me is all wrong. For nearly any of the classical reviewers on Amazon (or any of the other reviews websites or periodicals), they have some sympathetic public and others who don't agree.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Ataraxia on March 09, 2012, 12:22:40 PM
Quote from: CRCulver on March 09, 2012, 12:20:29 PM
I don't see how saying that some people agree with me equates to a claim that everyone besides me is all wrong. For nearly any of the classical reviews on Amazon (or any of the other reviews websites or periodicals), they have some sympathetic public and others who don't agree.

Your reviews look fine to me. Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 12:24:25 PM
Quote from: CRCulver on March 09, 2012, 12:20:29 PM
I don't see how saying that some people agree with me means that everyone besides me is all wrong. For nearly any of the classical reviews on Amazon, they have some sympathetic public.

Your demeanor on Amazon, which you confirmed today on this thread as well, comes across as pompous and self-righteous. Do you act this way in real life? Who knows.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on March 09, 2012, 12:27:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 12:24:25 PM
Your demeanor on Amazon, which you confirmed today on this thread as well, comes across as pompous and self-righteous. Do you act this way in real life? Who knows.

I think you have some issues if another poster voicing his opinions on media that he consumes causes you to start ranting about an "ego trip" and "pompous and self-righteous demeanor". Maybe you should lay off this thread for a while and, I don't know, send hate mail to Classics Today or Fanfare for a change of pace.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 12:29:11 PM
Quote from: CRCulver on March 09, 2012, 12:27:37 PM
I think you have some issues if another poster voicing his opinions on media that he consumes causes you to start ranting about an "ego trip" and "pompous and self-righteous demeanor". Maybe you should lay off this thread for a while and, I don't know, send hate mail to Classics Today or Fanfare.

I only have problems with people who beat people over the head with their opinions, which you do on regular basis with your "reviews."

By the way, I have far less problems with Hurwitz's reviews than I do yours. At least with Hurwitz, I know what I'm getting. With your reviews, I don't know half the time whether you like the music or not, unless of course you're reviewing Rautavaara then your opinion is obvious.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on March 09, 2012, 12:29:54 PM
Anyway...back to Norgard. :)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: raduneo on March 09, 2012, 08:32:32 PM
I love Norgard. One of the best contemporary composers, but not an easy one by any means! I love:

-Symphony 3
-Symphony 4 (the 1st movement an idyll, the 2nd movement hell, but each of the 2 movements has a bit of the other one in it, just like Yin and Yang. I forgot where I read this, but after reading this the symphony all of a sudden clicked for me!
-Symphony 6
-Symphony 7
-The Violin Concertos
-The 2 Harp Concertos
-The Piano Concerto (one of the best contemporary piano concertos hands down)
-Luna, Twilight
-Quartets 4,5 and 8

I am however having trouble with Symphony 5. I can hear how the "orchestra rises to the stratosphere" until the sound dissapears (like a tsunami), but the symphony as a whole doesn't click for me yet. HELP?

Also, I am dying to hear Symphony 8. I wonder how it is compared to his seventh!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: kentel on March 10, 2012, 12:09:56 AM
Quote from: raduneo on March 09, 2012, 08:32:32 PM
I love Norgard. One of the best contemporary composers

YES !

Quote from: raduneo on March 09, 2012, 08:32:32 PMbut not an easy one by any means!

It depends : it's easier than Carter or Lutosławski for ex. :)



Quote from: raduneo on March 09, 2012, 08:32:32 PM
I love:

-Symphony 3
-Symphony 4 (the 1st movement an idyll, the 2nd movement hell, but each of the 2 movements has a bit of the other one in it, just like Yin and Yang. I forgot where I read this, but after reading this the symphony all of a sudden clicked for me!
-Symphony 6
-Symphony 7
-The Violin Concertos
-The 2 Harp Concertos
-The Piano Concerto (one of the best contemporary piano concertos hands down)
-Luna, Twilight
-Quartets 4,5 and 8

Very good selection ! I love all these pieces ! Just a little question : which harp concertos are you refering to ?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: lescamil on March 10, 2012, 07:49:32 AM
Quote from: raduneo on March 09, 2012, 08:32:32 PM
Also, I am dying to hear Symphony 8. I wonder how it is compared to his seventh!

Wait, there's an 8th symphony???
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: DieNacht on March 10, 2012, 08:15:25 AM
QuoteWait, there's an 8th symphony???

The 8th is mentioned in reply #115.


These drawings by Nørgård were made when he was 11 years old, for some early musical tales of his:

(http://www.pernoergaard.dk/ress/grafik/60tegneserie.gif)

They can be found on the Nørgård website, which has recently been re-installed. It has a very detailed & interesting biography section, but stops around the year 2000.

http://www.pernoergaard.dk/index.html
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: raduneo on March 10, 2012, 08:41:49 AM
Quote from: kentel on March 10, 2012, 12:09:56 AM


YES !


It depends : it's easier than Carter or Lutosławski for ex. :)



Very good selection ! I love all these pieces ! Just a little question : which harp concertos are you refering to ?

I am reffering to "Through Thorns" and "King, Queen, and Ace". Two pieces that I do not get are his first two Symphonies, and as I mentionned before his fifth, which for me is more difficult than anything Lutoslawski wrote. (by the way I LOVE both Carter and Lutoslawski)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: kentel on March 10, 2012, 09:37:49 AM
Quote from: raduneo on March 10, 2012, 08:41:49 AM
I am reffering to "Through Thorns" and "King, Queen, and Ace".

That's what I thought, but they are not labelled "Harp Concertos" (actually I whish he wrote a real harp concerto...)

Quote from: raduneo on March 10, 2012, 08:41:49 AMTwo pieces that I do not get are his first two Symphonies, and as I mentionned before his fifth, which for me is more difficult than anything Lutoslawski wrote. (by the way I LOVE both Carter and Lutoslawski)

Good taste indeed !

Nørgård's Fifth is not the easiest thing to listen to, even in the context of his own production, but I don't find it excessively difficult. Keep trying !
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: lescamil on March 10, 2012, 12:34:35 PM
Quote from: kentel on March 10, 2012, 09:37:49 AM
That's what I thought, but they are not labelled "Harp Concertos" (actually I whish he wrote a real harp concerto...)

Actually, 'Through Thorns' is called 'Harp Concerto No. 2' by some people, so I assume that would make 'King, Queen, and Ace' his 'Harp Concerto No. 1'? They're close enough, I guess.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: raduneo on March 22, 2012, 06:34:46 PM
Does anyone know anything about his Accordion Concerto? It was written in 1968 (revised in 1977).

It can be found on this disc, which was just released in March, along with three other Danish Accordion Concertos!

http://www.amazon.com/Accordion-Concertos-Schmidt/dp/B007C7FE5U/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1332469732&sr=1-1

(here's the interview with the soloist/conductor if you're interested http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VS0GVvwfTc )
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on March 22, 2012, 08:03:53 PM
Quote from: raduneo on March 22, 2012, 06:34:46 PM
Does anyone know anything about his Accordion Concerto? It was written in 1968 (revised in 1977).

It's written in a sort of pastiche style, making lots of reference to the Romantic tradition. It is not in the same style as his psychedelic works of the same era.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: DieNacht on April 18, 2012, 03:11:28 AM
The previously mentioned early drawing series and some early texts by Nørgård, his brother Bent Nørgård and Adolf Wölffli form the basis of a kabaret being performed in Copenhagen from April 21st, called "TECNI - en Kaos Kabaret". It is mainly based on a tale of Nordic viking gods visiting the New York of the 1950s. The poet Ursula Andkjær Olsen and the director Jakob F. Schokking are also contributing. According to reports, the style is simple and partly reflects Nørgård´s teenage fascination with contemporary American popular culture.

some links:
http://www.snyk.dk/nyheder/n%C3%B8rg%C3%A5rds-tecni-genskabt-som-kaos-kabaret (Danish only)
http://www.figura.dk/video.6?sort=most_watched&vid=b8y7t-OSt-Q (you-tube trailer video)
http://www.figura.dk/nyheder1.6?n=17405

Given the general interest in Nørgård, there is no doubt that the cabaret will receive more attention from the media and probably as a release of DVD or the like.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on July 03, 2012, 01:55:03 PM
There is a recent interview (http://www.snyk.dk/nyheder/om-symfoniers-vibrationer-og-klang-%E2%80%93-uddrag-af-en-samtale-med-n%C3%B8rg%C3%A5rd) with Nørgård where he lays out the basis of the Symphony No. 8, to be premiered in Helsinki in September. It is in Danish, but perhaps one could run it through Google Translate.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on July 09, 2012, 05:06:33 PM
I was listening to the first movement of Symphony No.6 during the 'milder' sections of our weekend storm. Frankly, this is music made for listening to at the end of a pier during a storm like the one we had the other week! :o The peculiar percussion sounds are obviously meant to mimic the sounds of roofs coming off during a hurricane, or the pounding of raindrops. I just don't see the point of playing this on a nice day. ;) ;D It does make me want to go to the beach though,... it does seem specifically 'ocean' music, as opposed to the 'jungle' music of the 7th. Yea, I'd play this on a nice day at the beach,... with a nice breeze to cut all this humidity,... oh,... oh yes, Norgard :-[,... anyway, yes, weather music! 8)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: katewishing on July 29, 2012, 04:06:42 PM
There was a concert for Nørgård's 80th birthday on July 13th. The recordings are available on dr.dk (click the first link in the "Hør musikken" box to listen):

Nine Friends, for 9 instruments (http://www.dr.dk/P2/P2+Koncerten/Vaerker/N/20120716154310.htm?WBCMODE=authoringreedit)
Cello Concerto No. 2, "Momentum" (http://www.dr.dk/P2/P2+Koncerten/Vaerker/N/20120716161706.htm?WBCMODE=presentationunpublished)
Trip Trap, for cello (http://www.dr.dk/P2/P2+Koncerten/Vaerker/N/20120716162141.htm?WBCMODE=presentationunpublished)
"A Rose Leaf" and "Grooving", for piano (http://www.dr.dk/P2/P2+Koncerten/Vaerker/N/20120716160309.htm?WBCMODE=authoringreedit)
Solo Intimo, for cello (http://www.dr.dk/P2/P2+Koncerten/Vaerker/N/20120716153022.htm?WBCMODE=authoringreedit)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Cato on July 29, 2012, 04:09:24 PM
Quote from: katewishing on July 29, 2012, 04:06:42 PM
There was a concert for Nørgård's 80th birthday on July 13th. The recordings are available on dr.dk (click the first link in the "Hør musikken" box to listen):

Nine Friends, for 9 instruments (http://www.dr.dk/P2/P2+Koncerten/Vaerker/N/20120716154310.htm?WBCMODE=authoringreedit)
Cello Concerto No. 2, "Momentum" (http://www.dr.dk/P2/P2+Koncerten/Vaerker/N/20120716161706.htm?WBCMODE=presentationunpublished)
Trip Trap, for cello (http://www.dr.dk/P2/P2+Koncerten/Vaerker/N/20120716162141.htm?WBCMODE=presentationunpublished)
"A Rose Leaf" and "Grooving", for piano (http://www.dr.dk/P2/P2+Koncerten/Vaerker/N/20120716160309.htm?WBCMODE=authoringreedit)
Solo Intimo, for cello (http://www.dr.dk/P2/P2+Koncerten/Vaerker/N/20120716153022.htm?WBCMODE=authoringreedit)

Wow!  Many thanks to KateWishing for these!  I will look into them soon!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: mjwal on July 30, 2012, 06:10:37 AM
As I re-listened to the 6th symphony the other day - I do not know the 7th - and was slightly perplexed, since I could not "make it cohere" any more than the last time, despite being continuously interested and diverted by the sounds and sequences (yes, I know, my failure), I was intrigued to come to this thread and find the link to the Cello Concerto on Danish Radio. I will say immediately that I was knocked out by it, and immediately listened to it again. It seems to describe a "formèd trace" in the air, from tentative reflective beginnings through a post-Bartókian wildness to a questing yet somehow appeased luminosity that is rare nowadays. Especially in that last movement I felt I was hearing the true voice of feeling in some folk or popular song that the cello and ensemble were scraping clean of its accumulated barnacles of sentimentality: Superb. Thank you so much for that link, katewishing - I might have missed this masterpiece!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on July 31, 2012, 08:20:28 PM
Quote from: mjwal on July 30, 2012, 06:10:37 AM
As I re-listened to the 6th symphony the other day - I do not know the 7th - and was slightly perplexed, since I could not "make it cohere" any more than the last time, despite being continuously interested and diverted by the sounds and sequences (yes, I know, my failure), I was intrigued to come to this thread and find the link to the Cello Concerto on Danish Radio. I will say immediately that I was knocked out by it, and immediately listened to it again. It seems to describe a "formèd trace" in the air, from tentative reflective beginnings through a post-Bartókian wildness to a questing yet somehow appeased luminosity that is rare nowadays. Especially in that last movement I felt I was hearing the true voice of feeling in some folk or popular song that the cello and ensemble were scraping clean of its accumulated barnacles of sentimentality: Superb. Thank you so much for that link, katewishing - I might have missed this masterpiece!

Find a pier in a storm. Sit down and listen to the 6th. It will make sense. ;) It's weather music; the 7th is jungle music; what is the 8th?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: mjwal on August 01, 2012, 01:42:59 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 31, 2012, 08:20:28 PM
Find a pier in a storm. Sit down and listen to the 6th. It will make sense. ;) It's weather music; the 7th is jungle music; what is the 8th?
Trouble is, snyprr, not all of us have your advanced meteorological faculty for sussing out music. I very seldom associate visually when listening. Even the prelude to Walküre Act 1 does not make me think of an actual storm. So I will probably not think of Tarzan & Cheetah when I hear the 7th  ;)
Also: no piers round here.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: not edward on August 01, 2012, 05:06:55 AM
Quote from: mjwal on August 01, 2012, 01:42:59 AM
Trouble is, snyprr, not all of us have your advanced meteorological faculty for sussing out music. I very seldom associate visually when listening. Even the prelude to Walküre Act 1 does not make me think of an actual storm. So I will probably not think of Tarzan & Cheetah when I hear the 7th  ;)
Also: no piers round here.
To me, not so much a storm as sheer elemental power, rising up from the bass register in the orchestra. I love the work a lot--it's probably my favourite of the symphonies after the 3rd--but it seems to be a work that many find tough to enjoy. (It's possible that the coupling on the Chandos disc, Terrains vagues, might be illuminating. Rhetorically it operates in similar areas, but it is arguably simpler and less forbidding.)

Random link I just spotted while looking at the Guardian:

Tom Service on Norgard - http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/tomserviceblog/2012/jul/30/per-norgard-contemporary-music-guide
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: mjwal on August 03, 2012, 04:36:29 AM
Quote from: edward on August 01, 2012, 05:06:55 AM
To me, not so much a storm as sheer elemental power, rising up from the bass register in the orchestra. I love the work a lot--it's probably my favourite of the symphonies after the 3rd--but it seems to be a work that many find tough to enjoy. (It's possible that the coupling on the Chandos disc, Terrains vagues, might be illuminating. Rhetorically it operates in similar areas, but it is arguably simpler and less forbidding.)

Random link I just spotted while looking at the Guardian:

Tom Service on Norgard - http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/tomserviceblog/2012/jul/30/per-norgard-contemporary-music-guide
Thank you - good short intro. There is a longer and more penetrating one in German, if you read that language, by Christopher Schlüren here:
http://www.musikmph.de/rare_music/composers/m_r/norgard_per/1.html
I am going to listen to 4, 5 & 6 in sequence again soon - and when I get back to my main collection to 7, which I had said I do not know, d'oh! Of course, it's coupled with another recording of 3, my memory is really becoming a problem. Perhaps because I didn't get my head around the 7th at first hearing and found the 3rd less intense as an interpretation than I had expected.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on August 03, 2012, 05:22:48 AM
Quote from: mjwal on August 01, 2012, 01:42:59 AM
Trouble is, snyprr, not all of us have your advanced meteorological faculty for sussing out music. I very seldom associate visually when listening. Even the prelude to Walküre Act 1 does not make me think of an actual storm. So I will probably not think of Tarzan & Cheetah when I hear the 7th  ;)
Also: no piers round here.

With the 6th, I found it very obvious: the Chandos cover has a pier in a storm, and, seriously, the music is full of sounds that DO just sound like wind pounding up against, for instance, a metal sheet. Yes, or elemental.

And those tom toms in the 7th, along with the others sounds which sound ling long roots of giant trees, really give me a similiar, but totally different, impresion than 6.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: mjwal on August 04, 2012, 02:32:52 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 03, 2012, 05:22:48 AM
With the 6th, I found it very obvious: the Chandos cover has a pier in a storm, and, seriously, the music is full of sounds that DO just sound like wind pounding up against, for instance, a metal sheet. Yes, or elemental.

And those tom toms in the 7th, along with the others sounds which sound ling long roots of giant trees, really give me a similar, but totally different, impression than 6.
Damn, I just didn't look at the cover - in general LPs were better to look at - in fact, I rarely do unless it shows a) a naked woman b) a painting by Klee or Miró c) fruit - (my fave LP record cover was Peter Maxwell Davies' Salome ballet, but that VU LP was fine, too).
Seriously, they DO "just sound like" etc TO YOU. If I have - very occasionally - referential associations like that while listening, I've forgotten by the end. Even Also sprach Zarathustra doesn't make me think of spaceships or Persian prophets.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on September 19, 2012, 11:50:42 AM
Nørgård's Symphony No. 8 was premiered tonight in Helsinki by the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra under John Storgårds. The piece will be performed again tomorrow as well, so at 1900 on Thursday, September 20 the concert will be streamed on Finnish radio (Radio 1 (http://yle.fi/radio1/) and YLE Areena (http://areena.yle.fi/tv)).

If anyone is computer-saavy enough to save the stream to a FLAC file, please do. I have been waiting a long time to hear this piece, but sadly I won't have internet access during the hours in question.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: lescamil on September 19, 2012, 04:48:13 PM
Quote from: CRCulver on September 19, 2012, 11:50:42 AM
Nørgård's Symphony No. 8 was premiered tonight in Helsinki by the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra under John Storgårds. The piece will be performed again tomorrow as well, so at 1900 on Thursday, September 20 the concert will be streamed on Finnish radio (Radio 1 (http://yle.fi/radio1/) and YLE Areena (http://areena.yle.fi/tv)).

If anyone is computer-saavy enough to save the stream to a FLAC file, please do. I have been waiting a long time to hear this piece, but sadly I won't have internet access during the hours in question.

I would record this, but it just SO happens that at this time, my internet will be getting an upgrade and it will be off for a few hours. I am also really hoping that someone can record this concert, lossless or not. Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: katewishing on September 20, 2012, 01:56:40 PM
There's a video of today's Symphony No. 8 performance here (http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1681129) (also on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyIkRY5Bmks)).

A higher quality audio file would be nice...
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: not edward on September 22, 2012, 04:03:00 PM
Quote from: katewishing on September 20, 2012, 01:56:40 PM
There's a video of today's Symphony No. 8 performance here (http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1681129) (also on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyIkRY5Bmks)).

A higher quality audio file would be nice...
Thanks, regardless. I've been listening to the other symphonies quite a lot of late, and even in youtube quality it's great to have this available to hear how the cycle continues.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: lescamil on September 22, 2012, 05:03:24 PM
Quote from: katewishing on September 20, 2012, 01:56:40 PM
There's a video of today's Symphony No. 8 performance here (http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1681129) (also on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyIkRY5Bmks)).

A higher quality audio file would be nice...

Anyone know how to capture this video file? I've tried my usual methods and this site is stumping me.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: katewishing on September 22, 2012, 05:15:59 PM
Quote from: lescamil on September 22, 2012, 05:03:24 PM
Anyone know how to capture this video file? I've tried my usual methods and this site is stumping me.
Use RTMPExplorer (http://www.videohelp.com/tools/RTMPExplorer) (which requires Internet Explorer to have the latest version of Flash) or RTMPDump.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: lescamil on September 22, 2012, 06:05:20 PM
Quote from: katewishing on September 22, 2012, 05:15:59 PM
Use RTMPExplorer (http://www.videohelp.com/tools/RTMPExplorer) (which requires Internet Explorer to have the latest version of Flash) or RTMPDump.

Thank you! This worked perfectly.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on October 05, 2012, 07:59:38 AM
New BIS:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B008F6LEBA/?tag=goodmusicguideco
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: mikkeljs on October 17, 2012, 05:42:48 AM
Have been a while since I visited this forum. I still occasionally stumble into Nørgård. When he worked on his 8th symphony, he told me that he was in the biggest crisis of his life with this work. One movement in particular called "Grass" was a pain to write. Havent heard the symphony yet. 
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: lescamil on October 17, 2012, 05:25:49 PM
Quote from: mikkeljs on October 17, 2012, 05:42:48 AM
Have been a while since I visited this forum. I still occasionally stumble into Nørgård. When he worked on his 8th symphony, he told me that he was in the biggest crisis of his life with this work. One movement in particular called "Grass" was a pain to write. Havent heard the symphony yet.

Do listen to it. It doesn't have the same radiant quality you hear in his other symphonies. It is definitely a more serious work, with many darker textures and moods. I need to listen to the piece a few more times, but I like it.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: ibanezmonster on October 21, 2012, 06:12:58 PM
Yeah, Mikkel, definitely check out that link to the 8th at the top of the page. It's a good one.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: mikkeljs on October 21, 2012, 07:08:58 PM
Just listened to it. That is a fantastic work. I can understand why he had a hard time writing the last movement. Interesting that the ending was a Sibelius-motif on the cello, hehe.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on November 08, 2012, 04:58:00 AM
An exciting announcement (http://www.dacapo-records.dk/en/news-her-fejres-per-norgards-80-aars-dag.aspx) from Dacapo: in May 2013, Sakari Oramo will conduct the Vienna Philharmonic in Norgard's Symphony No. 1 "Sinfonia austera" and the Symphony No. 8, and they will be recorded for release on the label. So, we don't have to wait too long for the world premiere recording of this latest symphony.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: mjwal on March 11, 2013, 11:52:46 AM
Another chance to hear this 8th by Nørgård (5 days to go) - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r5mpm
Marvellous work. There's a short discussion with the conductor, Storgårds, and a brief commentary by Nørgård himself, who was not able to attend the concert. The Nørgård part of the concert starts around 25 min before the end.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: madaboutmahler on March 11, 2013, 12:41:41 PM
Now listening to Nørgård's music for the very first time, on discussing interest in the composer with Karlo.

Listening to the 3rd symphony and it is absolutely amazing! Such soundworlds, what fantastic orchestration! Enjoying this very much! :)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on March 25, 2013, 07:01:46 AM
Symphony No.4

I really don't know what to say about it. It came off like some strange ballet music to me yesterday in the car. There's a lot going on, but the general mood is mildly hallucinatory throughout. I've heard that the two movements are like a heaven/hell thing, and yes, the second half is a bit more virulent than the first, but, in this case, heaven and hell don't have all that much separating them (very asian view).

It certainly would have gone over better with today's weather than yesterday's, but, Norgard's moodiness didn't really take away from a pretty day. Well, it's slightly odd music, slightly, and I'm sure i haven't absorbed it all. I don't know, I didn't check the Thread, but I know you all have ideas about this piece. What'cha say?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Pessoa on November 26, 2013, 01:47:38 AM
I had never listened to anything by Norgard until yesterday when I started with the first 6 string quartets. I haven´t stopped listening to them, I find them deeply expressive and soul-comforting for my autumn-like present mood.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: The new erato on November 26, 2013, 05:44:38 AM
Quote from: Pessoa on November 26, 2013, 01:47:38 AM
I had never listened to anything by Norgard until yesterday when I started with the first 6 string quartets. I haven´t stopped listening to them, I find them deeply expressive and soul-comforting for my autumn-like present mood.
Any references to recordings and availability? I only have a DaCapo disc of late ones.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Pessoa on November 26, 2013, 05:50:53 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61rnspdhw-L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: The new erato on November 26, 2013, 05:51:40 AM
Thanks.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Pessoa on November 26, 2013, 06:20:19 AM
Quote from: The new erato on November 26, 2013, 05:51:40 AM
Thanks.
It´s the Kontra Quartet. It´s available on amazon.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: not edward on December 16, 2013, 08:49:21 PM
Just turned up a seriously obscure piece of Nørgård on YouTube: the electronic From the Ever More Distant Stars. This apparently has only ever been commercially released on a 1987 tape-only recording entitled Expanding Space Vol. 2, so is a real curiosity. The sound is, as one would expect on YouTube, far from ideal:

http://www.youtube.com/v/-b7NbWhor0s
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on December 18, 2013, 07:27:51 AM
Quote from: Pessoa on November 26, 2013, 01:47:38 AM
I had never listened to anything by Norgard until yesterday when I started with the first 6 string quartets. I haven´t stopped listening to them, I find them deeply expressive and soul-comforting for my autumn-like present mood.

I famously dislike the first SQs. However,if you do actually like them (I really only liked the very earliest one- somewhat Sibelian), then you MUST check out the others on DaCapo. Surely you will be totally amazed!. 7-10
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Pessoa on December 19, 2013, 01:12:50 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on December 18, 2013, 07:27:51 AM
I famously dislike the first SQs. However,if you do actually like them (I really only liked the very earliest one- somewhat Sibelian), then you MUST check out the others on DaCapo. Surely you will be totally amazed!. 7-10
There it lies on the table that Dacapo cd waiting for its turn to enter the cd player...
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on March 12, 2014, 03:43:55 PM
In 2012, just before the premiere of Nørgård's Symphony No. 8, Svend Hvidtfelt Nielsen interviewed the composer on his symphonies in general and the specifics of the Eighth. I've now posted an English translation (http://www.christopherculver.com/music/norgards-symphony-8.html) on my website.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on December 29, 2014, 11:27:10 AM
Just discovering (again!)'Sinfonia Austera'. What a fine work, rather in the spirit of some of my other favourite Scandinavian composers (although I realise that it is wrong to generalise), Holmboe, Rosenberg and Blomdahl ( especially his fine First Symphony).


Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on December 31, 2014, 07:21:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 29, 2014, 11:27:10 AM
Just discovering 'Sinfonia Austera'. What a fine work, rather in the spirit of some of my other favourite Scandinavian composers (although I realise that it is wrong to generalise), Holmboe, Rosenberg and Blomdahl ( especially his fine First Symphony).

who knows, maybe you'll go for the famous 3rd- totally different beast there- still very Nordic though--- will you become a convert??

Syms 4-6 might deserve a listen too... verrry intricate and awesome experiences there...

(Norgard not getting all that much love here lately?)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on January 01, 2015, 01:56:09 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on December 31, 2014, 07:21:37 AM
who knows, maybe you'll go for the famous 3rd- totally different beast there- still very Nordic though--- will you become a convert??

Syms 4-6 might deserve a listen too... verrry intricate and awesome experiences there...

(Norgard not getting all that much love here lately?)

I played the Austera again last night - such a fine work. The ending had me on the edge of my seat. Just before my New Year's resolution of trying to reduce OCD CD buying came into effect I ordered the BIS CD of the Austera and Symphony 8. I'll be interested to hear how it compares with the Segerstam recording. I have Symphony 3 on Chandos so will be listening to it soon. Interestingly I have noticed that it is often the first symphonies of more 'difficult' (for me anyway) composers which I am inclined to enjoy most, probably because they are more closely linked with earlier influences. Not only with Norgard but also with Blomdah, Egge and Simpson it is their first symphonies which I appreciate and seem to understand best. Certainly these are the ones which give me the most pleasure. So, love for Norgard from here at least!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on April 09, 2015, 04:38:21 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on December 31, 2014, 07:21:37 AM
who knows, maybe you'll go for the famous 3rd- totally different beast there- still very Nordic though--- will you become a convert??

Syms 4-6 might deserve a listen too... verrry intricate and awesome experiences there...

(Norgard not getting all that much love here lately?)

Am enjoying Symphony 3 at this moment.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on April 09, 2015, 02:22:43 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 09, 2015, 04:38:21 AM
Am enjoying Symphony 3 at this moment.

great- how did the choir grab you? I have to accept it... still a visionary work,.. maybe it needs a spin...
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on April 09, 2015, 10:25:06 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on April 09, 2015, 02:22:43 PM
great- how did the choir grab you? I have to accept it... still a visionary work,.. maybe it needs a spin...

I need to listen to it again but the good thing is that I want to do so. It reminded me a bit of the wordless choir at the end of John Kinsella's 7th Symphony, which is a very fine work too.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on June 16, 2015, 10:50:08 PM
Nørgård's Three Nocturnal Sketches, a double concerto for violin, viola, and chamber orchestra, was premiered (http://www.fib.no/en/Programme/?TLp=910283) earlier this month in Norway. Apparently it's based on his viola concerto Remembering Child, which Jakob Kullberg had been playing in his own cello arrangement and that must have given Nørgård the idea of exploding the viola line further into two string soloists. The piece will be performed again in Denmark this autumn.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: not edward on June 17, 2015, 05:59:18 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on June 16, 2015, 10:50:08 PM
Nørgård's Three Nocturnal Sketches, a double concerto for violin, viola, and chamber orchestra, was premiered (http://www.fib.no/en/Programme/?TLp=910283) earlier this month in Norway. Apparently it's based on his viola concerto Remembering Child, which Jakob Kullberg had been playing in his own cello arrangement and that must have given Nørgård the idea of exploding the viola line further into two string soloists. The piece will be performed again in Denmark this autumn.
Thanks for the update: I was wondering if this piece had been performed yet. I believe he's now working on a commission for the NYPO.
Title: Nørgård CD wins Gramophone's Contemporary Award
Post by: bhodges on August 28, 2015, 07:29:04 PM
Just found out that Sakari Oramo's recording of Nørgård's Symphonies 1 and 8 with the Vienna Philharmonic has won Gramophone's award in the contemporary category. Has anyone heard it? Looks pretty great...

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/awards/2015/contemporary

--Bruce
Title: Re: Nørgård CD wins Gramophone's Contemporary Award
Post by: vandermolen on August 28, 2015, 10:48:57 PM
Quote from: Brewski on August 28, 2015, 07:29:04 PM
Just found out that Sakari Oramo's recording of Nørgård's Symphonies 1 and 8 with the Vienna Philharmonic has won Gramophone's award in the contemporary category. Has anyone heard it? Looks pretty great...

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/awards/2015/contemporary

--Bruce

It's terrific Bruce. I have the CD but I also like the Chandos version of Symphony 1 and 2. I have heard four symphonies by Norgard and the 'Austera' is my favourite so far - I have been listening it to a lot recently. It is a darkly expressive but approachable score.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2015, 05:49:43 AM
My favorite Norgard is still his Symphony No. 3. I have heard all of the other symphonies but this one continues to impress me the most, especially that second movement.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: lescamil on August 30, 2015, 09:03:26 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2015, 05:49:43 AM
My favorite Norgard is still his Symphony No. 3. I have heard all of the other symphonies but this one continues to impress me the most, especially that second movement.

Have to say, I agree with you for once, although I really like 6 as well. 6 is more of his mature later style and also leaves quite an impression on me.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche VIOLIN CONCERTO 1111111111111111111111111111111111111
Post by: snyprrr on October 05, 2015, 05:16:45 PM
Quote from: kentel on March 09, 2012, 11:29:04 AM
He actually wrote : "Helle Nacht" is a very accessible work with well-nigh infinite replay value, and highly recommended." !  :)

"hELLE nACHT"

Hey, I just heard this, and yes, it's very very good piece, very much to return to. It has a very "warm lights reflecting of cold snow" feel, very homey and christmassy, as COZY as any AvantGARDE piece I've ever heard. It was pretty much everything I could have asked for. Had some of the Ligeti been incorporated into it, it would have been overwhelmingly good- the Ligeti is more out there, but it gets a bit loud- the Norgard maintains the cool mood throughout! This Chandos record has been an instant classic since it came out, and it lives up to its reputation.

What's the 3rd best Modern Violin Cto?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche VIOLIN CONCERTO 1111111111111111111111111111111111111
Post by: Joaquimhock on October 08, 2015, 10:59:14 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on October 05, 2015, 05:16:45 PM
"hELLE nACHT"

Hey, I just heard this, and yes, it's very very good piece, very much to return to. It has a very "warm lights reflecting of cold snow" feel, very homey and christmassy, as COZY as any AvantGARDE piece I've ever heard. It was pretty much everything I could have asked for. Had some of the Ligeti been incorporated into it, it would have been overwhelmingly good- the Ligeti is more out there, but it gets a bit loud- the Norgard maintains the cool mood throughout! This Chandos record has been an instant classic since it came out, and it lives up to its reputation.

What's the 3rd best Modern Violin Cto?


Interessingly, even if people seem to hear some Ligeti in Norgard's violin concerto, Helle Nacht has been composed before Ligeti's violin concerto...

Best modern violin concertos? Lutoslawski's Chain II, Dutilleux, Saariaho's Graal Théâtre and Dusapin's Aufgang


Title: Nørgård in New York: June 16-18
Post by: bhodges on May 20, 2016, 08:15:06 AM
There will be three concerts of Nørgård's chamber music at Scandinavia House here in New York on June 16, 17, and 18. The musicians involved are excellent. (On June 11, the NY Philharmonic is also doing his Symphony No. 8 as the finale of its Biennial.)

http://norgardinnewyork.org/scandinavia-house/

--Bruce
Title: Re: Nørgård in New York: June 16-18
Post by: vandermolen on May 20, 2016, 09:03:59 AM
Quote from: Brewski on May 20, 2016, 08:15:06 AM
There will be three concerts of Nørgård's chamber music at Scandinavia House here in New York on June 16, 17, and 18. The musicians involved are excellent. (On June 11, the NY Philharmonic is also doing his Symphony No. 8 as the finale of its Biennial.)

http://norgardinnewyork.org/scandinavia-house/

--Bruce

Are you going Bruce? Hope so.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: bhodges on May 20, 2016, 09:33:54 AM
Am definitely going to the middle one, with the Momenta Quartet in String Quartets Nos. 3, 5, 8, and 10 - incredibly, none have ever been performed in the United States - and reviewing it for The Strad. May go to the final night with the Lost Dog New Music Ensemble, but am waiting for some other things to fall into place first.

A fascinating composer, for sure!

--Bruce
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on May 20, 2016, 09:40:01 AM
Quote from: Brewski on May 20, 2016, 09:33:54 AM
Am definitely going to the middle one, with the Momenta Quartet in String Quartets Nos. 3, 5, 8, and 10 - incredibly, none have ever been performed in the United States - and reviewing it for The Strad. May go to the final night with the Lost Dog New Music Ensemble, but am waiting for some other things to fall into place first.

A fascinating composer, for sure!

--Bruce
Great! Hope you enjoy it/them.
Title: Re: Nørgård in New York: June 16-18
Post by: CRCulver on May 21, 2016, 04:30:42 AM
Quote from: Brewski on May 20, 2016, 08:15:06 AM
There will be three concerts of Nørgård's chamber music at Scandinavia House here in New York on June 16, 17, and 18. The musicians involved are excellent. (On June 11, the NY Philharmonic is also doing his Symphony No. 8 as the finale of its Biennial.)

A press release (http://nyphil.org/newsroom/~/media/1BA444E8EEBA4EC592BE8E60DCCBA631.ashx) issued when Nørgård won that prize from the NY Phil a few years ago, said that June 2016 would see the US premiere of Nørgård's Symphony No. 3 under Alan Gilbert. Has that been called off and replaced with the 8th? That would be a damn shame.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: 5against4 on June 05, 2016, 08:42:36 AM
Nørgård fans may be interested to hear one of his most recent pieces, the Three Nocturnal Movements, which i've written about on my blog today (http://5against4.com/2016/06/05/per-norgard-three-nocturnal-movements-world-premiere/). It's a very striking piece, a double concerto for violin and cello re-working bits of his 1986 viola concerto Remembered Child. The piece is almost exactly a year old, it was premièred on 6 June 2015 (details of the occasion here (http://www.fib.no/en/Programme/?TLp=910283)).
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on June 06, 2016, 05:08:14 PM
Quote from: 5against4 on June 05, 2016, 08:42:36 AM
Nørgård fans may be interested to hear one of his most recent pieces, the Three Nocturnal Movements, which i've written about on my blog today (http://5against4.com/2016/06/05/per-norgard-three-nocturnal-movements-world-premiere/). It's a very striking piece, a double concerto for violin and cello re-working bits of his 1986 viola concerto Remembered Child. The piece is almost exactly a year old, it was premièred on 6 June 2015 (details of the occasion here (http://www.fib.no/en/Programme/?TLp=910283)).

I really enjoyed it so thanks for posting.  I also found the backstory of Samantha Smith to be terribly sad and suggestive.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Rons_talking on June 07, 2016, 04:41:13 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 01, 2015, 01:56:09 AM
I played the Austera again last night - such a fine work. The ending had me on the edge of my seat. Just before my New Year's resolution of trying to reduce OCD CD buying came into effect I ordered the BIS CD of the Austera and Symphony 8. I'll be interested to hear how it compares with the Segerstam recording. I have Symphony 3 on Chandos so will be listening to it soon. Interestingly I have noticed that it is often the first symphonies of more 'difficult' (for me anyway) composers which I am inclined to enjoy most, probably because they are more closely linked with earlier influences. Not only with Norgard but also with Blomdah, Egge and Simpson it is their first symphonies which I appreciate and seem to understand best. Certainly these are the ones which give me the most pleasure. So, love for Norgard from here at least!

I just listened to 3, 5 and 6 for the first time. Wow! Exciting, strikingly modern, and highly musical. The 3rd is, at this point, my favorite. Norgard takes the best of his influences and styles it into his unique voice. These works make demands on the listener--after the 6th I felt the need to clear my head with some Copland. But these works hit the target where so many have missed.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Turner on September 24, 2016, 10:10:32 AM
The Dacapo series of the complete symphonies has been finished now, with nos. 2+6 & nos. 4+5 conducted by Storgårds -
and it gets good reviews at Musicweb:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Aug/Norgard_sys_6220645.htm
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: 5against4 on September 26, 2016, 12:43:01 PM
Good reviews from myself too  ;)

http://5against4.com/2016/09/17/new-releases-symphonies-by-paul-von-klenau-peter-maxwell-davies-andrzej-panufnik-xiogang-ye-per-norgard/
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on September 29, 2016, 07:17:55 AM
My copies of the recent symphonies discs are still on the way, but I have to say I'm not getting my hopes up. I was a Helsinki Phil. concertgoer when Segerstam gave way as chief conductor to Storgards, and there was an immediate decline in the quality of interpretations and in the orchestra's playing. When Segerstam gave us an excellent series of Nørgård symphony recordings, can Storgards offer something just as good, if not better? I await the chance to hear them.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: not edward on September 29, 2016, 08:59:26 AM
I think you might be pleasantly surprised. I never really clicked with the 5th in Segerstam's reading, so the Storgards was a revelation.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Leggiero on November 25, 2016, 02:51:15 AM
My ramblings-on about Nørgård's 3rd can be found here: https://leggierosite.wordpress.com/2016/05/01/norgards-3rd-beautiful-yes-really-musical-maths/ (https://leggierosite.wordpress.com/2016/05/01/norgards-3rd-beautiful-yes-really-musical-maths/)

[For anyone who may have happened across a near-identical post to this on another forum, yes, I'm shamelessly repeating myself in the hope of generating further discussion!]
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: violadude on November 25, 2016, 07:41:22 PM
I haven't heard Norgard's symphonies (I really want to) but I'm fairly familiar with his string quartets, what do people think of them? My favorites are #2, #4, #5, #8 and #10.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on November 25, 2016, 08:03:03 PM
Quote from: violadude on November 25, 2016, 07:41:22 PM
I haven't heard Norgard's symphonies (I really want to) but I'm fairly familiar with his string quartets, what do people think of them? My favorites are #2, #4, #5, #8 and #10.

Not a huge Norgard fan, but his 3rd is outstanding.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: violadude on November 25, 2016, 08:41:13 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on November 25, 2016, 07:56:28 PM
Symphony #7 immediately!!!  ;)

I would love to listen to any of his symphonies. I might listen to one of his symphonies, but...I have this weird personal hangup about listening to music that I haven't bought. This isn't anything to do with ethics or "stealing" or whatever. It's more like, when I buy a new piece I want the moment to be as special as possible, and I feel that if I've already heard what I'm buying than I've "spoiled" it for myself.

I know..I know.. it's weird. But it makes sense to me. I've broken this rule of course...but just in general.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on November 26, 2016, 01:12:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 25, 2016, 08:03:03 PM
Not a huge Norgard fan, but his 3rd is outstanding.

Same here, although I like No.1 'Sinfonia Austera' very much.
[asin]B000000AYY[/asin]
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on November 26, 2016, 04:28:43 AM
Quote from: violadude on November 25, 2016, 08:41:13 PM
I would love to listen to any of his symphonies. I might listen to one of his symphonies, but...I have this weird personal hangup about listening to music that I haven't bought. This isn't anything to do with ethics or "stealing" or whatever. It's more like, when I buy a new piece I want the moment to be as special as possible, and I feel that if I've already heard what I'm buying than I've "spoiled" it for myself.

I know..I know.. it's weird. But it makes sense to me. I've broken this rule of course...but just in general.

snyprrr understands ;)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on November 26, 2016, 10:53:12 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on November 26, 2016, 04:28:43 AM
snyprrr understands ;)
So does vandermolen. The ritual of buying a CD is very important.  ;)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: The new erato on November 27, 2016, 01:09:58 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 26, 2016, 10:53:12 AM
So does vandermolen. The ritual of buying a CD is very important.  ;)
Me too. As regard Storgards as a conductor I was severely put off him after hearing him do one of the dullest Mahler performances ever here in Bergen, and have studiously avoided all his recordings ever since........
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on November 27, 2016, 03:19:55 AM
Quote from: The new erato on November 27, 2016, 01:09:58 AM
Me too. As regard Storgards as a conductor I was severely put off him after hearing him do one of the dullest Mahler performances ever here in Bergen, and have studiously avoided all his recordings ever since........
OT
Was that with the Bergen PO?
I have them performing Klaus Egge's First Symphony - one of my favourite scores. The conductor is Karsten Andersen the performance is fine but the boxed-in recording overloads at the climax of the first movement (my favourite moment in the symphony  >:D). There is a finer older performance with the Oslo PO under Gruner-Hegge but it's locked up in the archives of Norwegian Radio somewhere.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: The new erato on November 27, 2016, 03:22:16 AM
It was with the Bergen PO, which is a crack outfit these days.

The current state of recordings of Norwegian music is not satisfactory, I agree.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on November 27, 2016, 03:45:04 AM
Quote from: The new erato on November 27, 2016, 03:22:16 AM
It was with the Bergen PO, which is a crack outfit these days.

The current state of recordings of Norwegian music is not satisfactory, I agree.
It's performance of the Egge is fine too although I prefer Gruner Hegge's slightly more urgent interpretation (on You tube).
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on November 27, 2016, 07:42:35 AM
Quote from: The new erato on November 27, 2016, 01:09:58 AM
As regard Storgards as a conductor I was severely put off him after hearing him do one of the dullest Mahler performances ever here in Bergen, and have studiously avoided all his recordings ever since........

I eventually got the recent Nørgård symphonies discs and reviewed them at Amazon. While I was disappointed by Storgårds' reading of the Fourth and Sixth, the new recordings of the Second and Fifth were very enjoyable and I see them as the new reference recordings.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on January 22, 2017, 11:10:32 PM
Okay, this is to a large extent repeating a post I made in the "what are you listening to now?" thread, but thought it was worth putting here. There's a colossal difference in timing between the Segerstam and Storgårds versions of Symphony No.4.

For Segerstam, the two movements take 15:09 and 12:37.

By contrast, Storgårds' timings are 12:40 and 6:58.

It's the huge difference in the tempo of the 2nd movement, "Chinese Witch's Lake" that is really getting my attention. You have one performance where the movements are approaching equal length, and another where the proportions are closer to a 2:1 ratio. I haven't listened to the whole of the Segerstam performance. But sampling a Youtube copy, and trying the transition between the two movements, there just doesn't seem to be anything like the same degree of contrast that Storgårds generates. There certainly is a shift in instrumentation and sounds, but Storgårds' extra speed heightens the change considerably.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on January 23, 2017, 06:20:36 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on January 22, 2017, 11:10:32 PM
Okay, this is to a large extent repeating a post I made in the "what are you listening to now?" thread, but thought it was worth putting here. There's a colossal difference in timing between the Segerstam and Storgårds versions of Symphony No.4.

For Segerstam, the two movements take 15:09 and 12:37.

By contrast, Storgårds' timings are 12:40 and 6:58.

It's the huge difference in the tempo of the 2nd movement, "Chinese Witch's Lake" that is really getting my attention. You have one performance where the movements are approaching equal length, and another where the proportions are closer to a 2:1 ratio.

The reading of Jorma Panula (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000009I8P?ie=UTF8&tag=3636363-20&camp=1789&linkCode=xm2&creativeASIN=B000009I8P) also proceeds rather quickly through the second movement, so Segerstam seems like the outlier, even though I find his take the most satisfying.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on January 23, 2017, 12:31:09 PM
Most definitely the outlier.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on January 25, 2017, 03:08:01 PM
Quote from: CRCulver on January 23, 2017, 06:20:36 AM
The reading of Jorma Panula (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000009I8P?ie=UTF8&tag=3636363-20&camp=1789&linkCode=xm2&creativeASIN=B000009I8P) also proceeds rather quickly through the second movement, so Segerstam seems like the outlier, even though I find his take the most satisfying.

I'm listening to Seger. now, imagining what 1/2 speed would sound like. Must be quite aggressive. What I hear with Seger. in that suble/minute shift from "Non-Wrathful" to "Wrathful" in its proper context. BOTH Non-Wrathful and Wrathful are similar, but the latter contains, ... well,... the "Wrath", which manifests in just the minutest measure of turbulence in Seger's conducting.

I guess the others are emphasizing the contrast, whereas I think Seger has more of the correct "Eastern" mindset as to how Wrathful-NonWrathful works,...

eh?


Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on January 25, 2017, 03:16:31 PM
Storgards on YT

Yea, he takes the mysterious mush away... clarifies the "chinese" music in the opening... more hard bone... as if Boulez were conducting??

We all have our fun with Seger, but, on the things he rules, he rules them for a very specific reason- he can get magical things to happen. Storgards sounds to me like he conducting a symphony. Seger sounds like he's conjuring magical stuff... that said, that odd instrument in the middle of Storgards (some horn?) is captured very nicely, followed by a nice solo violin.

But, Storg. isn't soooo much more violent than Seger, or anything, so, one can't say Seger is being slack or polite...


Yea, I'm missing the mystery of the Seger here in the quite section at the end... to clinical 4 me...



Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on February 17, 2017, 04:55:43 AM
As mentioned in the listening thread, I listened to all 8 symphonies today. Not quite Holmboe or Faure levels of potential obsession yet, but pretty good all the same.

I'm ready to declare the 7th as my favourite for now. The 5th and 8th are the ones I'm struggling with the most at this point. But more than anything I'm happy that they're all distinct entities in my head, with quite different moods and effects.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on February 18, 2017, 04:05:04 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on February 17, 2017, 04:55:43 AM
As mentioned in the listening thread, I listened to all 8 symphonies today. Not quite Holmboe or Faure levels of potential obsession yet, but pretty good all the same.

I'm ready to declare the 7th as my favourite for now. The 5th and 8th are the ones I'm struggling with the most at this point. But more than anything I'm happy that they're all distinct entities in my head, with quite different moods and effects.

7 has the roto-toms? A very jungle like sonic experience as I remember...
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on February 18, 2017, 04:16:37 PM
Yes, no.7 is the one with the 14 tuned toms in it.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Turner on September 08, 2017, 06:40:08 AM
An interesting account of Nørgård´s youth from a friend, very detailed about early cultural influences etc.
(but unfortunately only in Danish; those somewhat familiar with Scandinavian or German texts should be able grasp some of it, and of course there´s always Google Translate, which seems to be getting better):

http://hanshenriksen.dk/solo-intimo.html

Among other things, Nørgård´s cello-player friend is describing the authoritarian school years, both experiencing a mistaken English bombing of a school in central Copenhagen, early concert experiences, a visit to Sibelius (where Nørgård just kept in the background), early musicianship and compositions, many canoeing holidays in Denmark, Nørgård and the visual arts (Chagall) and literature (Kafka, Poe), Holmboe as a teacher, Nordic identity, Nørgård´s early wedding and trip to Paris, Blomdahl, early reviews and debates, etc.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on September 08, 2017, 07:23:30 AM
Golly, that's quite lengthy.

Still, if I'm going to make use of this language...
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Turner on September 08, 2017, 07:39:24 AM
I checked Google Translate for the first section, it took no time and it seems to be doing acceptable, but not entirely faultless work.

At least, the text is written in old-school Danish, like that of Karen Blixen, and not influenced by contemporary slang ...
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche VIOLIN CONCERTO NO.1
Post by: snyprrr on September 28, 2017, 12:21:29 PM
'Helle Nacht'

I still don't like it. I have the Chandos recording, and I must say that the Ligeti just blows the Norgard out of the water. Am I missing a certain section or something? The opening just doesn't grab me, and I'm not finding the redemption I seek. :(
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche VIOLIN CONCERTO NO.1
Post by: CRCulver on September 29, 2017, 02:33:35 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on September 28, 2017, 12:21:29 PM
'Helle Nacht'

I still don't like it. I have the Chandos recording, and I must say that the Ligeti just blows the Norgard out of the water. Am I missing a certain section or something? The opening just doesn't grab me, and I'm not finding the redemption I seek. :(

If you don't like it at first hearing, it could be that Norgard isn't for you, but the now-defunct pernoergaard.dk website (https://web.archive.org/web/20170320175837/http://www.pernoergaard.dk:80/eng/udvalgte/236.html) (luckily still available through the Wayback Machine) has a good description of all four movements that describes the games of perception that are the foundation of the work.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche VIOLIN CONCERTO NO.1
Post by: snyprrr on October 02, 2017, 07:32:38 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on September 29, 2017, 02:33:35 PM
If you don't like it at first hearing, it could be that Norgard isn't for you, but the now-defunct pernoergaard.dk website (https://web.archive.org/web/20170320175837/http://www.pernoergaard.dk:80/eng/udvalgte/236.html) (luckily still available through the Wayback Machine) has a good description of all four movements that describes the games of perception that are the foundation of the work.

I will try again! ;)

I dooo like the Symphonies and the Late String Quartets... VC just wasn't what I expected at first... thought it would be more like classic Ligeti or something... what's your favorite part of the piece?...
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: snyprrr on October 02, 2017, 07:33:11 AM
"piece of the part"
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: millionrainbows on October 02, 2017, 09:35:21 AM
Quote from: Kullervo on June 15, 2007, 06:43:57 PM
There doesn't seem to be much talk about this composer whom I feel is one of the most, if not THE most, profound composer of the past 50 years. So here's a little intro for those not acquainted!

Per Nørgård

(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z245/tapiola/33tokyo.gif)

Born July 13th, 1932 in Gentofte, Denmark.

Studied under both Nadia Boulanger and Vagn Holmboe.

Had a correspondence with Jean Sibelius for some time before the master's death in 1957 (Sibelius is also a huge influence on Nørgård).

Experimented with serial and collage techniques in his early works.

Discovered a series of numbers called the Infinity Series (http://www.pernoergaard.dk/eng/strukturer/uendelig/uindhold.html), which is, to be honest, over my head. Some good examples of pieces that utilize the series are Voyage Into the Golden Screen and the 2nd and 3rd symphonies.

Became obsessed with the schizophrenic Swiss artist Adolf Wölfli, eventually writing several works based around Wölfli's troubled life and work. Major works from his "Wölfli" period are the 4th Symphony and the opera, The Divine Tivoli (Tivoli translates to something like "circus" or "carnival").

His latest works from the 1990s to now are harder to pin down. His 5th symphony I honestly don't understand, but other more recent pieces seem to be more accessible, such as his piano concerto.

I hope this has been educational!  $:)

Yes, it has, and I like Norgard's music; I have his string quartets and a couple of the symphonies. I ran in to the mention of Adolf Woelfli (that's how it's spelled in the liner notes) in the Terry Riley CD "Moscow Conservatory Concert" in which Riley mentions his opera "The Saint Adolf Ring" which is based on the writings and drawings of Woelfli, who created a vast body of work during his 35-year stay in a mental institution.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Turner on January 19, 2018, 12:28:04 PM
Nørgård-interest advancing somewhat in Germany, following the Siemens Prize;

there will be no 9th symphony, due to health problems.

https://nsnbc.me/2017/11/14/magical-worlds-of-multidimensional-nature/
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on January 19, 2018, 04:15:11 PM
Quote from: Turner on January 19, 2018, 12:28:04 PM
Nørgård-interest advancing somewhat in Germany, following the Siemens Prize;

there will be no 9th symphony, due to health problems.

https://nsnbc.me/2017/11/14/magical-worlds-of-multidimensional-nature/

Darn.  i wish he would get an assistant to help him when his mind was still strong but his body fails him like Ralph Vaughan Williams and Henze did in their advanced age.  I want to hear his No. 9.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2018, 09:48:09 AM
Cross-post:

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 30, 2018, 09:35:13 AM
Went on a bit of a Nørgård tear and here are the results:

(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/6.220622.jpg) (https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.226039.jpg)

(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/DCCD%208901.jpg) (https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.226067.jpg)

(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.226092.jpg) (https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/6.220574.jpg)

(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/6.220547.jpg)(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/6.220645.jpg)

(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/6.220646.jpg) (https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.226014.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61NPIOPDekL.jpg) (https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/636943605929.jpg?1401982553)

I listened to a few of Nørgård's works last night and have become quite fascinated by the sonorities found in his music. To some degree, he reminds me of Ligeti with perhaps some Xenakis and Grisey/Murail thrown in, but filtered through the punk mindset of "I don't give a f***" and you get where I'm going with this description. ;D I think time has been a great healer and I'm finding I enjoy the music more this time around now that I have a better understanding of where he's coming from musically. There are several periods of his compositional development, but the most 'off the cuff' so to speak is his current music, which seems to go in several directions with no specific style set in stone.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on April 30, 2018, 10:48:33 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 30, 2018, 09:48:09 AM
Cross-post:

I listened to a few of Nørgård's works last night and have become quite fascinated by the sonorities found in his music. To some degree, he reminds me of Ligeti with perhaps some Xenakis and Grisey/Murail thrown in, but filtered through the punk mindset of "I don't give a f***" and you get where I'm going with this description. ;D I think time has been a great healer and I'm finding I enjoy the music more this time around now that I have a better understanding of where he's coming from musically. There are several periods of his compositional development, but the most 'off the cuff' so to speak is his current music, which seems to go in several directions with no specific style set in stone.
How very interesting John. I think that No.1 is great especially on Chandos but need to explore more. No.3 is next up as it's the only other one I have on CD.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2018, 10:56:14 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 30, 2018, 10:48:33 AM
How very interesting John. I think that No.1 is great especially on Chandos but need to explore more. No.3 is next up as it's the only other one I have on CD.

Very nice, Jeffrey. The third is regarded as his masterpiece and, it is, a very fine work, but I'm always interested in hearing the seldom heard or talked about works in addition to those highly acclaimed ones. My understanding of the third is it's his complete culmination of the 'infinity series' he had been experimenting with for a decade (?). The second movement puts a smile on my face every time I hear it. Just brilliant stuff.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on April 30, 2018, 01:34:35 PM
Goodness, that is QUITE a "tear".

I still haven't moved past the Da Capo symphony series, plus a few scattered works that I've collected during my Holmboe-quest.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2018, 01:57:22 PM
Quote from: Madiel on April 30, 2018, 01:34:35 PM
Goodness, that is QUITE a "tear".

I still haven't moved past the Da Capo symphony series, plus a few scattered works that I've collected during my Holmboe-quest.

Indeed. I have no idea when I'll get around to these recordings, but it's nice to have them whenever I get the hankering to hear this composer's music.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on May 01, 2018, 02:48:03 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 30, 2018, 10:56:14 AM
My understanding of the third is it's his complete culmination of the 'infinity series' he had been experimenting with for a decade (?).

The Third is in many respects a synthesis of experiments carried out in previous works. But the real culmination of this stylistic period, I would say, is Twilight for orchestra from a couple of years later. Get the recording on Dacapo; the recording on Kontrapunkt is not competitive.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Leggiero on August 22, 2018, 01:55:42 AM
Quote from: Turner on January 19, 2018, 12:28:04 PM
Nørgård-interest advancing somewhat in Germany, following the Siemens Prize;

there will be no 9th symphony, due to health problems.

https://nsnbc.me/2017/11/14/magical-worlds-of-multidimensional-nature/

According to the announcer at the end of this...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/events/e2hn5v/play/a9hj8g/b0bfxz6v

...he has a ninth "forming in his mind". Let's just hope the curse doesn't get him first...!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on August 22, 2018, 09:56:38 PM
Norgard's 3rd Symphony was given its UK premiere at the Proms a few days ago, in the presence of the composer. Reviews were mixed but here is one of them:

https://bachtrack.com/review-prom-51-norgard-dausgaard-bystrom-bbc-scottish-august-2018
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on August 24, 2018, 06:42:07 AM
Quote from: Turner on January 19, 2018, 12:28:04 PM
Nørgård-interest advancing somewhat in Germany, following the Siemens Prize;

there will be no 9th symphony, due to health problems.

https://nsnbc.me/2017/11/14/magical-worlds-of-multidimensional-nature/

Is anyone still able to access this article?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: North Star on August 24, 2018, 06:46:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 22, 2018, 09:56:38 PM
Norgard's 3rd Symphony was given its UK premiere at the Proms a few days ago, in the presence of the composer. Reviews were mixed but here is one of them:

https://bachtrack.com/review-prom-51-norgard-dausgaard-bystrom-bbc-scottish-august-2018
I find it quite surprising that this work hasn't been performed in the UK before.

Quote from: relm1 on August 24, 2018, 06:42:07 AM
Is anyone still able to access this article?
Not me, at any rate.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: bhodges on August 24, 2018, 07:10:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 22, 2018, 09:56:38 PM
Norgard's 3rd Symphony was given its UK premiere at the Proms a few days ago, in the presence of the composer. Reviews were mixed but here is one of them:

https://bachtrack.com/review-prom-51-norgard-dausgaard-bystrom-bbc-scottish-august-2018

Thanks, I've been reading great reviews of this on Twitter. (And of course, you don't see any of his symphonies played in the United States, sigh.)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on August 24, 2018, 12:47:23 PM
Quote from: Brewski on August 24, 2018, 07:10:29 AM
Thanks, I've been reading great reviews of this on Twitter. (And of course, you don't see any of his symphonies played in the United States, sigh.)

--Bruce

Here's another positive review from The Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/aug/22/bbcsso-dausgaard-review-norgard-prom-51

And a negative one from The Times:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/proms-reviews-bbc-singers-oramo-bbc-sso-dausgaard-6dlx9r7z9
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Iota on August 24, 2018, 01:54:49 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 22, 2018, 09:56:38 PM
Norgard's 3rd Symphony was given its UK premiere at the Proms a few days ago, in the presence of the composer. Reviews were mixed but here is one of them:

https://bachtrack.com/review-prom-51-norgard-dausgaard-bystrom-bbc-scottish-august-2018

Thanks for the review.

I was at this Prom, and after hearing both the Wagner and Strauss suffer rather at the hands of the RAH acoustic (they were audible, but somewhere 'over there') it was really refreshing to hear the Norgard sound so present. I thought Dausgaard seemed very inside and in control of the music, and the whole thing felt in a way like one long, extended moment or breath, shown in incredible detail. Some absolutely exquisite sounds en route.
I'd heard about the 'infinity series' he employed in its composition and although I couldn't hear the detail of it in the score, hearing the overall work as something fractal in nature, rang very true for me.

It was nice to see a seated Norgard taking applause at the end.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on August 27, 2018, 10:11:45 PM
Quote from: Iota on August 24, 2018, 01:54:49 PM
Thanks for the review.

I was at this Prom, and after hearing both the Wagner and Strauss suffer rather at the hands of the RAH acoustic (they were audible, but somewhere 'over there') it was really refreshing to hear the Norgard sound so present. I thought Dausgaard seemed very inside and in control of the music, and the whole thing felt in a way like one long, extended moment or breath, shown in incredible detail. Some absolutely exquisite sounds en route.
I'd heard about the 'infinity series' he employed in its composition and although I couldn't hear the detail of it in the score, hearing the overall work as something fractal in nature, rang very true for me.

It was nice to see a seated Norgard taking applause at the end.

How nice that you were there. I like Symphony 1 very much but also have the Chandos recording of Symphony 3 which I'm now encouraged to listen to again. Great that Norgard was there as well to hear the UK premiere of his symphony.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on August 28, 2018, 06:16:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 27, 2018, 10:11:45 PM
How nice that you were there. I like Symphony 1 very much but also have the Chandos recording of Symphony 3 which I'm now encouraged to listen to again. Great that Norgard was there as well to hear the UK premiere of his symphony.

Vandermolen, listen to the Norgard 3rd linked above from the proms.  They do a very good job explaining the infinity concept and how it developed into the symphony.  I found it helped me appreciate the work much more.  But I too love the 1st symphony very much which is overtly Sibelian whereas the 3rd is subtly so.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on August 28, 2018, 10:44:46 PM
Quote from: relm1 on August 28, 2018, 06:16:31 AM
Vandermolen, listen to the Norgard 3rd linked above from the proms.  They do a very good job explaining the infinity concept and how it developed into the symphony.  I found it helped me appreciate the work much more.  But I too love the 1st symphony very much which is overtly Sibelian whereas the 3rd is subtly so.
Thanks v much for this suggestion which I will try to follow up.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on February 07, 2019, 10:35:37 AM
I listened to 'Terrain Vagues' on You Tube yesterday, which was adventurous for me. I was oddly impressed by it, especially the extraordinary opening. I'm tempted to get the CD on which it features along with Symphony 6. Any other views on 'Terrains Vagues'?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: SymphonicAddict on February 07, 2019, 12:18:55 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 07, 2019, 10:35:37 AM
I listened to 'Terrain Vagues' on You Tube yesterday, which was adventurous for me. I was oddly impressed by it, especially the extraordinary opening. I'm tempted to get the CD on which it features along with Symphony 6. Any other views on 'Terrains Vagues'?

It sounds tempting. I have that CD but I've never listened to Terrains Vagues yet. It will be a fair reason to get acquainted with it. Thanks for the recommendation, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on February 07, 2019, 02:49:06 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on February 07, 2019, 12:18:55 PM
It sounds tempting. I have that CD but I've never listened to Terrains Vagues yet. It will be a fair reason to get acquainted with it. Thanks for the recommendation, Jeffrey!
Well Cesar - it is not 'a walk in the park' but the opening is extraordinary and it held my attention.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on February 07, 2019, 04:02:41 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 07, 2019, 02:49:06 PM
Well Cesar - it is not 'a walk in the park' but the opening is extraordinary and it held my attention.
Why?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on February 07, 2019, 10:43:34 PM
Quote from: relm1 on February 07, 2019, 04:02:41 PM
Why?
I mean that, for me at least, it's quite 'difficult' music but that's a comment on me rather than on 'Terrains Vagues'. Norgard is one of those composers I'd like to explore more and I have the highest opinion of the 'Austera' which I often play, especially the Chandos recording.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on February 08, 2019, 03:04:47 AM
Haven't tried Terrains Vagues yet. I'm going chronological at the moment so it's 30 years away...

Having stumbled across a proper Nørgård worklist that even has programme notes by the composer, he says that the starting point for Terrains Vagues was the coda of the 6th symphony. So someone was being smart when they put those works on a CD together.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: André on February 08, 2019, 05:13:53 AM
I pulled the disc off the shelves, will give it a spin. Memories are dim and not exactly enthusiastic, but I have only limited confidence in the ol' hard drive.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: André on February 08, 2019, 10:30:26 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZBA9D56WL.jpg)

C'est fait.

I listened to it again and am no more nor less interested in Norgard's oeuvre than before.  Symphony no 3 is slightly more original but that, too, fails to communicate much of anything. It's not the composer's modernism. For my taste, music by Norholm, Eliasson and Heininen score about as high on the 'modernist' scale, but substantially higher on the musical one. Terrains vagues is more compact than the symphony and sustains the interest better. I suspect that some tricks like the accordion and ticking metronomes in the first part will not wear well over time. The sonic presentation is top notch. Liner notes are informative about the symphony but veer to the pretentious when discussing Terrains vagues. It would have been interesting if the author had interviewed the composer instead. He was very much alive at the time.

In short this is interesting music that unfurls without much incident. It is not modern enough to be criticized on that ground. Quite listenable as a matter of fact. It was the 4th time I listened to it since I acquired the disc some 10 years ago.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Alex Bozman on February 08, 2019, 12:12:18 PM
I've got this CD, but found the music very difficult to get a handle on. I'll have to dig it out and see what can make of it now.

Norgard's 3rd and 4th symphonies are the pieces which I connect with most, along with the ensemble piece Night Symphonies Day Breaks.

I like Eliasson's Symphony for Strings, but the handful of his other pieces I've come across haven't sounded that disctinctive. Heard a few of the Norholm symphonies and virtually nothing by Heininen. What pieces by this trio do you suggest are worth tracking down? 
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on February 08, 2019, 02:23:03 PM
Quote from: André on February 08, 2019, 10:30:26 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZBA9D56WL.jpg)

C'est fait.

I listened to it again and am no more nor less interested in Norgard's oeuvre than before.  Symphony no 3 is slightly more original but that, too, fails to communicate much of anything. It's not the composer's modernism. For my taste, music by Norholm, Eliasson and Heininen score about as high on the 'modernist' scale, but substantially higher on the musical one. Terrains vagues is more compact than the symphony and sustains the interest better. I suspect that some tricks like the accordion and ticking metronomes in the first part will not wear well over time. The sonic presentation is top notch. Liner notes are informative about the symphony but veer to the pretentious when discussing Terrains vagues. It would have been interesting if the author had interviewed the composer instead. He was very much alive at the time.

In short this is interesting music that unfurls without much incident. It is not modern enough to be criticized on that ground. Quite listenable as a matter of fact. It was the 4th time I listened to it since I acquired the disc some 10 years ago.
Thanks Andre. I don't think that I shall dash out to buy it. I will listen again to Symphony 3 as it is highly rated by many here.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 08, 2019, 02:26:20 PM
Quote from: André on February 08, 2019, 10:30:26 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZBA9D56WL.jpg)

C'est fait.

I listened to it again and am no more nor less interested in Norgard's oeuvre than before.  Symphony no 3 is slightly more original but that, too, fails to communicate much of anything. It's not the composer's modernism. For my taste, music by Norholm, Eliasson and Heininen score about as high on the 'modernist' scale, but substantially higher on the musical one. Terrains vagues is more compact than the symphony and sustains the interest better. I suspect that some tricks like the accordion and ticking metronomes in the first part will not wear well over time. The sonic presentation is top notch. Liner notes are informative about the symphony but veer to the pretentious when discussing Terrains vagues. It would have been interesting if the author had interviewed the composer instead. He was very much alive at the time.

In short this is interesting music that unfurls without much incident. It is not modern enough to be criticized on that ground. Quite listenable as a matter of fact. It was the 4th time I listened to it since I acquired the disc some 10 years ago.

I checked and, yes, I have the disc. I recall listening to it, I don't recall much about it except a vague impression that there were weird sounds.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Iota on February 08, 2019, 03:13:49 PM
For what it's worth I found the String Quartet No.10 far more interesting than any of the symphonies I've heard. There just seemed far more point to it, as well as being very attractive music.

The Kroger Quartet recording is the only one I know.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71G-0kzh65L._SX355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on February 08, 2019, 03:49:00 PM
I've grasped some symphonies more than others. But this is part of why I'm going and trying everything I can find recordings of chronologically. I suspect some of the more puzzling later pieces might make a fraction more sense if I know how he got there.

I have the Da Capo Symphony series. I know some people like the Chandos recordings, but the couple of pieces I did a direct comparison of I definitely preferred Da Capo. For one thing I think Nørgård is a composer who benefits from high quality clear sound.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on February 08, 2019, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 08, 2019, 02:23:03 PM
Thanks Andre. I don't think that I shall dash out to buy it. I will listen again to Symphony 3 as it is highly rated by many here.

It's worth trying Symphony 2 as it very much leads to No.3.  The third takes the infinity series principles of no.2 and puts them on steroids.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: André on February 08, 2019, 05:45:19 PM
Quote from: Madiel on February 08, 2019, 03:51:06 PM
It's worth trying Symphony 2 as it very much leads to No.3.  The third takes the infinity series principles of no.2 and puts them on steroids.

I will try it. I have it coupled with no. 4
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: schnittkease on February 08, 2019, 06:02:10 PM
Quote from: Iota on February 08, 2019, 03:13:49 PM
The Kroger Quartet recording is the only one I know.

And it's the only one you need to know. Authoritative and approved by the composer.

I too prefer Nørgård's stripped-down late style to his busier early works. Of the symphonies, No. 6 is a favorite.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: André on February 10, 2019, 10:12:15 AM
Cross-posted from the WAYL thread:

Quote from: André on February 10, 2019, 10:11:00 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/EEZRCPk7LiXGCy9JW6nqMeBqc50=/fit-in/600x595/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6177436-1413002537-5152.jpeg.jpg)

Symphony no 2 is a "pure" application of Nørgård's infinity rows technique. The notes mention that the results sound closer to Riley and Reich than to Boulez and Stockhausen. Agreed. The minimalist feel is obvious. The whole work is built as a mathematical structure: the first 4096 notes of the chromatic infinity row, equally divided in 4 sections of 1024 notes, each of these in turn divided by 4 ( = 256 notes of the infinity row), the sections being varied mostly by orchestration. Lest that sound numbingly repetitive and formulaic, there is variety in the musical result.

Obviously that kind of thing is a cul-de-sac over the long term and Nørgård was clever enough to recognize this early. Therefore he never settled for long into a particular musical technique. When he was done with an experiment he carried on and tried other things: "Change, growth and metamorphosis are recurring themes in Per Norgård's production". In the 4th symphony (1981) his encounter with the works of writer/painter Adolf Wölfli finds a striking musical illustration. From this experience he derives the notion of idyll/catastrophe, where beauty and chaos mingle to create a schizophrenic musical adventure. Given that both works are rather short (23 and 18 minutes) I can't say I was bored or irritated. The composer knows when he's done, a quality I appreciate.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Iota on February 10, 2019, 11:51:57 AM
Quote from: schnittkease on February 08, 2019, 06:02:10 PM
Authoritative and approved by the composer.
Interesting.

Quote from: schnittkease on February 08, 2019, 06:02:10 PM
I too prefer Nørgård's stripped-down late style to his busier early works. Of the symphonies, No. 6 is a favorite.

There was just something more substantial about Quartet No.10 than anything else I've heard by him. I've liked other things by him, but they've just seemed to lack vitamins, as it were. Am on the hunt now for similar fare.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on February 11, 2019, 09:37:20 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 22, 2018, 09:56:38 PM
Norgard's 3rd Symphony was given its UK premiere at the Proms a few days ago, in the presence of the composer. Reviews were mixed but here is one of them:

https://bachtrack.com/review-prom-51-norgard-dausgaard-bystrom-bbc-scottish-august-2018

It's still difficult for me to fathom that this symphony (written in the early 70s) received it's U.K. premiere just last year. :o This symphony is brilliant and I don't like to use this word very much, because saying it so many times starts to lose the magnitude of its' original intent. The second movement, in particular, is mesmerizing and hypnotic. I tend to think of Nørgård in this way: he was a classical punk that gave the middle finger to the musical establishment by doing what he wanted to. I'm going to be revisiting a lot of his music in the next few weeks, or, at least, make some attempt to as there's so much on my musical plate at the moment.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on February 11, 2019, 06:22:47 PM
Quote from: Iota on February 08, 2019, 03:13:49 PM
For what it's worth I found the String Quartet No.10 far more interesting than any of the symphonies I've heard. There just seemed far more point to it, as well as being very attractive music.

The Kroger Quartet recording is the only one I know.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71G-0kzh65L._SX355_.jpg)

A disc I can't recommend highly enough is his adaptation of Walt Whitman's Sea Drift. Have you heard it? It comes from this spellbinding disc:

[asin]B001PGMR9A[/asin]
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: JBS on February 11, 2019, 06:25:29 PM
I am trying to figure out if Norgard is a composer I would be interested in. Can someone describe his style(s)?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on February 11, 2019, 06:54:07 PM
Quote from: JBS on February 11, 2019, 06:25:29 PM
I am trying to figure out if Norgard is a composer I would be interested in. Can someone describe his style(s)?

I think Andre summed Norgard up rather appropriately when he said with each work he had something particular in mind whether it be a compositional technique or method and then completely abandoned this technique/method for the next work. He's a composer of many stripes and colors, but I think it's important to understand that this composer is completely free of any stylistic constraints and goes on a whim from one work to the other. This doesn't mean, however, that his music lacks structure and logic, because there's plenty of this in the music. The puzzle that is Norgard lies in understanding that his non-conformity is a part of his music's allure. I think the emotional core of his music can be heard in say a work like his String Quartet No. 4, "Dreamscape" where we're exposed to some distressing yet subtle undertones through sustained notes and an eerie atmosphere. It's not unlike what you would hear in say Ligeti or Scelsi. It seems these are the composers I can think of that come close to this type of sound. In fact, I'd go so far to say that Ligeti is the closest to his sound-world. From my understanding, his works can be divided up into three distinct periods: the 'infinity series' works, the Adolf Wölfli-inspired period where he merged chaos with the more serene, and his late period music which draws on all aspects of his past and merges them together, but, sometimes, he completely breaks with his own past and creates something unlike anything else he has done. One thing that can said about his music and it's something that I admire, is he keeps you on your toes and takes you down some very unexpected roads.

I hope this helps (in some small way).
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: JBS on February 11, 2019, 07:04:59 PM
Thanks MI
At least it helps me to know multiple Norgards are at work.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on February 11, 2019, 07:14:07 PM
Quote from: JBS on February 11, 2019, 07:04:59 PM
Thanks MI
At least it helps me to know multiple Norgards are at work.

You're quite welcome, Jeffrey. He's a tough nut to crack for sure, but I'm getting there and I think by reading a lot about him and listening to his music obviously (especially in succession -- one after another) has helped me get to the roots of his musical persona.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on February 11, 2019, 08:07:29 PM
Hey Jeffrey, this might be of some use to you:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2012/jul/30/per-norgard-contemporary-music-guide (https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2012/jul/30/per-norgard-contemporary-music-guide)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on February 11, 2019, 10:11:58 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 11, 2019, 08:07:29 PM
Hey Jeffrey, this might be of some use to you:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2012/jul/30/per-norgard-contemporary-music-guide (https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2012/jul/30/per-norgard-contemporary-music-guide)

Even though I'm the wrong Jeffrey I found the article interesting. Thanks for posting it John.
:)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Rons_talking on February 11, 2019, 10:59:33 PM
In the late symphonies it's hard to hear Norgard's voice through all of the orchestral effects. Too much "tinkle-tinkle whomp-bam, tinkle." I'm looking forward to hearing his quartets.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on February 11, 2019, 11:23:03 PM
Quote from: Rons_talking on February 11, 2019, 10:59:33 PM
In the late symphonies it's hard to hear Norgard's voice through all of the orchestral effects. Too much "tinkle-tinkle whomp-bam, tinkle." I'm looking forward to hearing his quartets.

I like your description of the music.
:)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on February 12, 2019, 12:16:39 AM
Quote from: Rons_talking on February 11, 2019, 10:59:33 PM
In the late symphonies it's hard to hear Norgard's voice through all of the orchestral effects. Too much "tinkle-tinkle whomp-bam, tinkle." I'm looking forward to hearing his quartets.

Personally I find I've responded to Symphony No.7 far more than its neighbours.

Depending on how you define "late"... Symphony No.5 absolutely amazes me. The opening is just... astonishing. But it's also exhausting and disorienting music that I haven't really got a full grip on.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on February 12, 2019, 06:14:15 AM
Quote from: Rons_talking on February 11, 2019, 10:59:33 PM
In the late symphonies it's hard to hear Norgard's voice through all of the orchestral effects. Too much "tinkle-tinkle whomp-bam, tinkle." I'm looking forward to hearing his quartets.

:-\
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: JBS on February 12, 2019, 06:27:20 AM
Quote from: Rons_talking on February 11, 2019, 10:59:33 PM
In the late symphonies it's hard to hear Norgard's voice through all of the orchestral effects. Too much "tinkle-tinkle whomp-bam, tinkle." I'm looking forward to hearing his quartets.

But suppose tinkle tinkle whomp bam, tinkle is his musical voice?
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 11, 2019, 08:07:29 PM
Hey Jeffrey, this might be of some use to you:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2012/jul/30/per-norgard-contemporary-music-guide (https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2012/jul/30/per-norgard-contemporary-music-guide)
Thanks.  Bookmarked it for the video clips.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 12, 2019, 07:35:40 AM
Quote from: Rons_talking on February 11, 2019, 10:59:33 PM
In the late symphonies it's hard to hear Norgard's voice through all of the orchestral effects. Too much "tinkle-tinkle whomp-bam, tinkle." I'm looking forward to hearing his quartets.

"Tinkle-tinkle whomp-bam, tinkle." That sums it up.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on February 12, 2019, 12:33:42 PM
Quote from: Madiel on February 08, 2019, 03:51:06 PM
It's worth trying Symphony 2 as it very much leads to No.3.  The third takes the infinity series principles of no.2 and puts them on steroids.
Thanks - I actually have it coupled with Symphony 1 (my favourite so far) on Chandos so I will give it a spin.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: SymphonicAddict on February 12, 2019, 02:00:41 PM
I gave to Terrains Vagues a try. It may not be a walk in the park as Jeffrey said, but it is a quite psychedelic oniric journey!  8) I really enjoyed this, it's partly chaotic and mesmerizing, and somehow it made sense to me. Inevitably Penderecki's early works and some stuff by Lutoslawski were brought to my mind, so this work was nothing tortuous at all. Thanks Jeffrey for mentioning it.

To be honest, I feel this kind of music is more interesting than some works by some atonal/dodecaphonic/serialist composers.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on February 12, 2019, 04:18:36 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 11, 2019, 09:37:20 AM
It's still difficult for me to fathom that this symphony (written in the early 70s) received it's U.K. premiere just last year. :o This symphony is brilliant and I don't like to use this word very much, because saying it so many times starts to lose the magnitude of its' original intent. The second movement, in particular, is mesmerizing and hypnotic. I tend to think of Nørgård in this way: he was a classical punk that gave the middle finger to the musical establishment by doing what he wanted to. I'm going to be revisiting a lot of his music in the next few weeks, or, at least, make some attempt to as there's so much on my musical plate at the moment.
You don't know what you're talking about.  Middle finger to the musical establishment?  Nothing I have heard from him agrees with you.  His early output is traditional and his mid/later output is experimental in a way that respects tradition and absolutely does not give the finger.  It's indebted to it while being distinctive.  Have you even heard his music?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on February 12, 2019, 08:37:42 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on February 12, 2019, 02:00:41 PM
I gave to Terrains Vagues a try. It may not be a walk in the park as Jeffrey said, but it is a quite psychedelic oniric journey!  8) I really enjoyed this, it's partly chaotic and mesmerizing, and somehow it made sense to me. Inevitably Penderecki's early works and some stuff by Lutoslawski were brought to my mind, so this work was nothing tortuous at all. Thanks Jeffrey for mentioning it.

To be honest, I feel this kind of music is more interesting than some works by some atonal/dodecaphonic/serialist composers.

I definitely agree with your last sentence Cesar not that I know too much about atonal/dodecaphonic and serialist composers or the difference between those terms to be honest. And yet there is something about Norgard which seems worthwhile. Clearly I need to explore symphonies 2 and 3. No.1 the 'Austera' seems a bit 'stand alone' to me and I find it both gripping and emotionally moving.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on February 13, 2019, 06:24:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 12, 2019, 06:23:00 PM
Have I even heard his music? ROFL!!!!  :laugh: Nah, I haven't heard any of it, which is why I'm able to respond to other members and talk about what I (not what you) hear. Anyway, yeah, I really don't have any inclination or clue as to what I'm talking about. I'm just a fool with an opinion, which is pretty much what you are as well.

Maybe you're right and I need to relisten to it.  I always found it well structured and individual.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2019, 06:45:01 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 13, 2019, 06:24:17 AM
Maybe you're right and I need to relisten to it.  I always found it well structured and individual.

I deleted my initial response to you (as I thought the tone of the reply was way too sarcastic and negative), but I don't think I'm right nor do I believe I'm wrong. I'm just telling you what I perceive in the music. Also, I never said anything about it not being structured nor bearing any kind of individual stamp. He clearly is his own man and he forged his own path, which I didn't mean he literally 'gave the finger' to the musical establishment, but I do believe, while he respects it (probably even more so as he aged), he did his own thing and this thing, IMHO, exists outside of said establishment whether one would admit it or not. I think also that geography has a lot to do with him --- he's kind of isolated from everything that's happening around him (not that he doesn't know about the music scene and the changes that were happening of course). This gives his music an aura of independence that is totally singular.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on February 13, 2019, 07:07:55 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2019, 06:45:01 AM
I deleted my initial response to you (as I thought the tone of the reply was way too sarcastic and negative), but I don't think I'm right nor do I believe I'm wrong. I'm just telling you what I perceive in the music. Also, I never said anything about it not being structured nor bearing any kind of individual stamp. He clearly is his own man and he forged his own path, which I didn't mean he literally 'gave the finger' to the musical establishment, but I do believe, while he respects it (probably even more so as he aged), he did his own thing and this thing, IMHO, exists outside of said establishment whether one would admit it or not. I think also that geography has a lot to do with him --- he's kind of isolated from everything that's happening around him (not that he doesn't know about the music scene and the changes that were happening of course). This gives his music an aura of independence that is totally singular.

So having an individual voice means giving the established the middle finger?  ::)  He is very highly regarded in Denmark and very generous with students giving many master classes and mentoring.  Perhaps some in this forum even know him personally but I've never heard anything about him that comes across as insincere, non-supportive of other voices, etc.  He's a class act with a very positive impact on subsequent composers.  Probably the great Danish composer of his time that many around him revere.  But yes, all of this doesn't mean you have to love his music - just don't be too disappointed if the reaction to a dismissive post in a forum about him gets some backlash. 
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2019, 07:58:42 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 13, 2019, 07:07:55 AM
So having an individual voice means giving the established the middle finger?  ::)  He is very highly regarded in Denmark and very generous with students giving many master classes and mentoring.  Perhaps some in this forum even know him personally but I've never heard anything about him that comes across as insincere, non-supportive of other voices, etc.  He's a class act with a very positive impact on subsequent composers.  Probably the great Danish composer of his time that many around him revere.  But yes, all of this doesn't mean you have to love his music - just don't be too disappointed if the reaction to a dismissive post in a forum about him gets some backlash.

Okay, here's where we're having a problem. Please read this carefully: I NEVER SAID ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT HIM. In fact, what I'm saying about him is positive. I like composers who have an individuality. Understand this or don't understand this, because, at this juncture, I don't really think you want to bother reading too much into what I'm saying and only want to respond with whatever you feel like responding to.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on February 13, 2019, 08:39:25 AM
Quote from: Madiel on February 08, 2019, 03:51:06 PM
It's worth trying Symphony 2 as it very much leads to No.3.  The third takes the infinity series principles of no.2 and puts them on steroids.
I did listen to the 'Austera' and Symphony 2 today. Symphony 2 held my attention but whilst I could admire the music and the interesting sounds it didn't connect with me emotionally in the way that Sinfonia Austera does. By the end of the 'Austera' I'm on the edge of my seat. In that sense I relate to it in the way that I do with the first symphonies by Blomdahl, Klaus Egge or Robert Simpson which are, in some ways, more conservative than their later works (I'm aware that this is a very over-generalised assertion). Also I'm less adventurous with my musical explorations than many here.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on February 13, 2019, 11:50:16 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2019, 07:58:42 AM
Please read this carefully: I NEVER SAID ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT HIM. In fact, what I'm saying about him is positive.

This. The response you're getting is a bit mystifying.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on February 13, 2019, 04:31:53 PM
This pissed me off as being excessively dismissive and negative: "I tend to think of Nørgård in this way: he was a classical punk that gave the middle finger to the musical establishment"  Punk is defined as a worthless person (often used as a general term of abuse).

    a criminal or hoodlum.
    derogatory•US
    (in prison slang) a passive male homosexual.
    an inexperienced young person; a novice.

It's very derogatory.  I took offense.  This is a composer I respect.  Mirror Image was out of line.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: JBS on February 13, 2019, 04:52:45 PM
Quote from: relm1 on February 13, 2019, 04:31:53 PM
This pissed me off as being excessively dismissive and negative: "I tend to think of Nørgård in this way: he was a classical punk that gave the middle finger to the musical establishment"  Punk is defined as a worthless person (often used as a general term of abuse).

    a criminal or hoodlum.
    derogatory•US
    (in prison slang) a passive male homosexual.
    an inexperienced young person; a novice.

It's very derogatory.  I took offense.  This is a composer I respect.  Mirror Image was out of line.

I took the word as suggesting punk rock, and therefore not disrespectful.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2019, 06:44:16 PM
Quote from: Madiel on February 13, 2019, 11:50:16 AM
This. The response you're getting is a bit mystifying.

It sure is and I'm not really calling Norgard a 'punk' in a derogatory way. If relm1 wants to take it that way, then he can. I really think it's bizarre that someone would question someone else about what they're hearing and basically how they have no clue about what they're saying. Umm...I wasn't on any hallucinogenics when I wrote that about Norgard or was I? ;D Tune in at 5 to find out...but now, here's Bob with the weather.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2019, 06:46:13 PM
Quote from: JBS on February 13, 2019, 04:52:45 PM
I took the word as suggesting punk rock, and therefore not disrespectful.

Precisely!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on February 14, 2019, 02:33:26 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 13, 2019, 04:31:53 PM
This pissed me off as being excessively dismissive and negative: "I tend to think of Nørgård in this way: he was a classical punk that gave the middle finger to the musical establishment"  Punk is defined as a worthless person (often used as a general term of abuse).

    a criminal or hoodlum.
    derogatory•US
    (in prison slang) a passive male homosexual.
    an inexperienced young person; a novice.

It's very derogatory.  I took offense.  This is a composer I respect.  Mirror Image was out of line.

Well, you are the only person here who understands the word "punk" in that way, and I suggest you find a better dictionary.

It was perfectly clear from context that MI was not intending a negative or derogatory meaning.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Symphonic Addict on November 23, 2019, 03:32:57 PM
I've come to think that Norgard is like Holmboe, but distilled. Not the worst for this, of course, it's just it makes sense to me.  ;)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on November 23, 2019, 07:57:02 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 23, 2019, 03:32:57 PM
I've come to think that Norgard is like Holmboe, but distilled. Not the worst for this, of course, it's just it makes sense to me.  ;)

Hmm. Okay. To be honest I don't hear a massive amount of similarity despite their personal connection.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Symphonic Addict on November 25, 2019, 02:12:24 PM
Quote from: Madiel on November 23, 2019, 07:57:02 PM
Hmm. Okay. To be honest I don't hear a massive amount of similarity despite their personal connection.

Don't take it literally, please! It was just a free thought that came to my mind that day. Both styles are quite different and distinctive for their own rights.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Symphonic Addict on November 28, 2019, 07:24:43 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71G-0kzh65L._SX466_.jpg)

Earlier I listened to the 8th SQ Night Descending like Smoke (a cool name BTW!) for the first time. Actually it's been my first acquaintance with some chamber work of this composer, and I found it so spectral, intriguing, with some hallucinating effects. Now my curiosity was piqued to investigate the other quartets.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vers la flamme on March 07, 2020, 11:22:14 AM
I have just begun listening to the music of Per Nørgård, by way of this interesting CD:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/716kzebtmPL._SX500_.jpg)

I find the two Nørgård works represented here totally fascinating. Perhaps most impressive is the solo viola sonata (here played on a violin), "The Secret Melody", in its ability to keep my attention with a single instrument, much of it droning on essentially a single note (especially the "Singing" third movement). This is clearly a highly creative, forward-thinking composer.

Where to from here? It appears he is acclaimed as a symphonist. I see someone on the first page of this thread recommended this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YP4Veza5L.jpg)

... so I'll be seeking that out. Any other recommendations? It appears he has had an eclectic career with a number of stylistic changes.

This disc, another Chandos, also looks promising...:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RWupgtkoL._SY500_.jpg)

Disregard the ugly Amazon watermarks, please!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Iota on March 07, 2020, 11:43:16 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 07, 2020, 11:22:14 AM
Any other recommendations?

His string quartet no.10 is a very fine thing. In fact for me his finest (of what I know) .. a nice incarnation on Dacapo with the Kroger Qtet.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vers la flamme on March 07, 2020, 12:02:39 PM
Quote from: Iota on March 07, 2020, 11:43:16 AM
His string quartet no.10 is a very fine thing. In fact for me his finest (of what I know) .. a nice incarnation on Dacapo with the Kroger Qtet.

Awesome, I found it. I'll have to check it out. The biggest hurdle to get over will be coming to terms with listening to a string quartet that shares a name with a major supermarket... but I can deal.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vers la flamme on March 07, 2020, 12:30:17 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DZ6nb7MlL.jpg)

Who's responsible for talking the Vienna Philharmonic into doing Nørgård? That's an astonishing feat of persuasion considering that great orchestra's reputation for extreme conservatism.

Anyone heard it?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on March 07, 2020, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 07, 2020, 12:30:17 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DZ6nb7MlL.jpg)

Who's responsible for talking the Vienna Philharmonic into doing Nørgård? That's an astonishing feat of persuasion considering that great orchestra's reputation for extreme conservatism.

Anyone heard it?

Yes, I have all 4 of the Da Capo discs (I think only that one is in Vienna). Da Capo sonics are magnificent these days and for this composer that's a huge bonus. I know lots of people keep recommending the older Chandos recordings but in the cases where I did a comparison I like the Da Capo set.

In terms of works generally, my gateway drug was the piano trio Spell. Also Symphony 3 is justly famous.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vers la flamme on March 07, 2020, 01:34:09 PM
Quote from: Madiel on March 07, 2020, 01:09:02 PM
Yes, I have all 4 of the Da Capo discs (I think only that one is in Vienna). Da Capo sonics are magnificent these days and for this composer that's a huge bonus. I know lots of people keep recommending the older Chandos recordings but in the cases where I did a comparison I like the Da Capo set.

In terms of works generally, my gateway drug was the piano trio Spell. Also Symphony 3 is justly famous.

Thank you for that comment! I am generally a fan of these '90s-'00s Chandos recordings, there is just something about that sound (& I feel similarly w/ Hyperion releases from around that time and a little earlier) that I really like. But I will need to look into these Dacapo releases. I had always thought Dacapo was just the Danish face of Naxos but it appears that they are somewhat more of a "luxury" label, putting out SACDs and whatnot.

So this looks promising:

[asin]B001MUJSEQ[/asin]

Featuring Dausgaard who really impressed me on the recording I have, the famous 3rd symphony, plus a fairly recent symphony from the previous decade. Covers a lot of bases. Anyway I have a lot to explore. I really should be more like you, I know you like to thoroughly stream all of the available options before making a purchase. I can be hasty to pull the trigger if something looks really good, or sounds good off of a 5 minute sample.  ;D

Finally, I will make sure to check out the Spell trio. Thanks again for your informative post.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on March 07, 2020, 02:34:44 PM
Da Capo are definitely their own thing. You're perhaps thinking of the Nielsen symphonies that they eventually licensed to Naxos.

But a definite tendency to high quality sound and I also tend to be a sucker for their cover art...
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: San Antone on March 07, 2020, 03:39:41 PM
I like Nørgård a lot - but mainly his chamber music, primarily his string quartets.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on March 07, 2020, 05:17:38 PM
Quote from: San Antone on March 07, 2020, 03:39:41 PM
I like Nørgård a lot - but mainly his chamber music, primarily his string quartets.

I must confess having no awareness of his string quartets.  Might you suggest a lightening approach?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: San Antone on March 07, 2020, 05:35:02 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 07, 2020, 05:17:38 PM
I must confess having no awareness of his string quartets.  Might you suggest a lightening approach?

This is the one I have:

Norgard: String Quartets 7, 8, 9 and 10

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71G-0kzh65L._SX522_.jpg)

Kroger Quartet


But there is this one, quartets 1-6 by the Kontra Quartet that I don't have

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51SjWd1eNuL.jpg)

The Danish String Quartet has recorded SQ #1.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Symphonic Addict on March 07, 2020, 05:44:14 PM
Quote from: San Antone on March 07, 2020, 05:35:02 PM
This is the one I have:

Norgard: String Quartets 7, 8, 9 and 10

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71G-0kzh65L._SX522_.jpg)

Kroger Quartet


But there is this one, quartets 1-6 by the Kontra Quartet that I don't have

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51SjWd1eNuL.jpg)

The Danish String Quartet has recorded SQ #1.

Most of these quartets have been true revelations for me. I'm very fond of them. The one I found least interesting was the No. 3 Three Miniatures. The rest of them are consistently great.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on March 08, 2020, 12:09:24 AM
I must play my Chandos CD of Symphony 3, which I've owned for years but hardly ever played. My favourite work by Norgard of the few I know is Symphony No.1 'Austera'. I have both recordings and prefer the one on Chandos to the Vienna PO version, good as that is.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on March 08, 2020, 08:23:40 AM
Nørgård is a composer that baffles quite a bit, but he has written some very good music. Like many here, I do like the SQs, although I confess to not knowing them very well or as well as I probably should. He's written so much music that it's difficult truly assess his style as it does change from work to work. Of the orchestral works that I've heard, I like the 3rd and 4th symphonies. Symphony No. 4 which was inspired by 'outsider' artist, Adolf Wölfli is mesmerizing. Another work I like a lot is Fons Laetitiae for soprano and harp.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vers la flamme on March 08, 2020, 08:49:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 08, 2020, 08:23:40 AM
Nørgård is a composer that baffles quite a bit, but he has written some very good music. Like many here, I do like the SQs, although I confess to not knowing them very well or as well as I probably should. He's written so much music that it's difficult truly assess his style as it does change from work to work. Of the orchestral works that I've heard, I like the 3rd and 4th symphonies. Symphony No. 4 which was inspired by 'outsider' artist, Adolf Wölfli is mesmerizing. Another work I like a lot is Fons Laetitiae for soprano and harp.

I think you're right re: the bolded point, I get a similar impression from another near-contemporary Nordic composer, Einojuhani Rautavaara. Thanks for the tip, I'll look into Symphony No.4.

I think I'm going to buy that Dausgaard disc w/ symphonies 3 & 7 on Dacapo. What I sampled sounds really good.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on March 08, 2020, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 08, 2020, 08:49:15 AM
I think you're right re: the bolded point, I get a similar impression from another near-contemporary Nordic composer, Einojuhani Rautavaara. Thanks for the tip, I'll look into Symphony No.4.

I think I'm going to buy that Dausgaard disc w/ symphonies 3 & 7 on Dacapo. What I sampled sounds really good.

Symphony No. 3, especially the second movement is really fantastic. I think you would enjoy it.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on March 08, 2020, 01:58:13 PM
And personally the 7th is my favourite of the later symphonies, the one I've most readily got into.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on March 08, 2020, 05:42:24 PM
Does anyone have any info on a possible Symphony No. 9?  He mentioned in an interview some ideas about it a year or two ago.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Daverz on March 08, 2020, 08:38:35 PM
[Mirror Image Mode]
Really?
[/Mirror Image Mode]

I may have commented somewhere back there in the 16 pages, but I just can't seem to connect with this composer.  He seems to have a good ear for sonority, but otherwise I can't seem to connect with any of his music.  I'm willing to give him more chances.

I have a couple Chandos discs (Symphony 2 and Sinfonia Austera, Symphonies 4 & 5) and a Da Capo disc (Symphony 3 and Twilight).  I've also heard the Oramo disc with Symphony No. 8, which strikes me as pleasant noodling.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on March 09, 2020, 12:09:34 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 08, 2020, 05:42:24 PM
Does anyone have any info on a possible Symphony No. 9?  He mentioned in an interview some ideas about it a year or two ago.

The composer has been in declining health for a few years now, and his last truly new work (as opposed to a re-arranging of an earlier work) was in 2013. I wouldn't get my hopes up for a Ninth.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on March 09, 2020, 12:17:47 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on March 09, 2020, 12:09:34 AM
The composer has been in declining health for a few years now, and his last truly new work (as opposed to a re-arranging of an earlier work) was in 2013. I wouldn't get my hopes up for a Ninth.

I was wondering. Because I have a copy of a worklist* that was initially completed at the very end of 2012, but then says it was revised in 2015 and only describes itself as works up to 2013, which did at least raise the possibility that there hadn't been anything in the intervening couple of years.

*This is what I'm using to do a chronological exploration, at least of the things I can find recordings for.

EDIT: Oh, actually there's a web version of the same worklist I'm using. Which does have brief entries for 2014 and 2015 but exactly as you say, they are revisions and collections and the last genuinely new entry is still 2012. The latest update of the list was in November 2019.

http://www5.kb.dk/da/nb/dcm/udgivelser/norgard/vaerkliste.html

In Danish, sorry.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on March 09, 2020, 06:32:02 AM
Quote from: Madiel on March 09, 2020, 12:17:47 AM
I was wondering. Because I have a copy of a worklist* that was initially completed at the very end of 2012, but then says it was revised in 2015 and only describes itself as works up to 2013, which did at least raise the possibility that there hadn't been anything in the intervening couple of years.

*This is what I'm using to do a chronological exploration, at least of the things I can find recordings for.

EDIT: Oh, actually there's a web version of the same worklist I'm using. Which does have brief entries for 2014 and 2015 but exactly as you say, they are revisions and collections and the last genuinely new entry is still 2012. The latest update of the list was in November 2019.

http://www5.kb.dk/da/nb/dcm/udgivelser/norgard/vaerkliste.html

In Danish, sorry.

Wow, that's quite a humongous work list!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on March 09, 2020, 01:22:05 PM
It is, though his way of working means that often you get several works sharing musical material.

Also, it spans over 60 years!

There's a PDF on that page as well, which has a bit more English in it (program notes for performances of works).
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: MusicTurner on May 02, 2020, 11:55:51 AM
I tried googling for any locally mentioned premieres of Nørgård works during the most recent bunch of years, but there were none ...  however, he might still be working on something. He is 87.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Maestro267 on May 03, 2020, 03:06:41 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on May 02, 2020, 11:55:51 AM
He is 87.

This could also be a reason that he's slowed down. Maybe he's done.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on May 03, 2020, 07:37:46 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 03, 2020, 03:06:41 AM
This could also be a reason that he's slowed down. Maybe he's done.

Age never stopped a composer before. Cases in point, Elliott Carter and Vaughan Williams.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on May 03, 2020, 08:35:29 AM
Sibelius stopped. Much earlier. I'm sure there are others.

Anyway, in this case there's not much sign of activity in that recently updated catalogue.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Maestro267 on May 03, 2020, 08:43:04 AM
Carter, RVW, Brian and the like are exceptions, not the norm.

John Corigliano (82 this year) is another composer who says he has pretty much stopped now.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on May 03, 2020, 08:47:21 AM
Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2020, 08:35:29 AM
Sibelius stopped. Much earlier. I'm sure there are others.

Anyway, in this case there's not much sign of activity in that recently updated catalogue.

But my point was age didn't stop many composers. There are many examples of composers writing up to the very end. Two of which I had already sited since apparently you can't read. ::)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: MusicTurner on May 03, 2020, 09:03:14 AM
There might be something urging one to create a final, 9th Symphony, thereby inscribing you into a great row of previous composers.

We've had some Scandinavian symphonists active well into their 80s - Ib Nørholm (13), Svend Erik Tarp (10), Hilding Rosenberg (8 ), Erland von Koch (6), Rautavaara (8 ), Gunnar Bucht (16), probably others as well.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on May 03, 2020, 09:05:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2020, 08:47:21 AM
But my point was age didn't stop many composers. There are many examples of composers writing up to the very end. Two of which I had already sited since apparently you can't read. ::)

You said never. Some stop, some don't. There is no hard and fast rule about it.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on May 03, 2020, 09:38:40 AM
Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2020, 09:05:15 AM
You said never. Some stop, some don't. There is no hard and fast rule about it.

Right on, way to make a mountain out of molehill. Your mom would be so proud of you. ::) Not only that, why are you even talking to me? I thought you made it perfectly clear that I'm not the kind of person you would like to talk to?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on May 03, 2020, 09:40:12 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 03, 2020, 08:43:04 AM
Carter, RVW, Brian and the like are exceptions, not the norm.

John Corigliano (82 this year) is another composer who says he has pretty much stopped now.

There is no 'norm'. I just pointed out that age isn't a factor in whether a composer quits composing or not. Let's not make a big stink about this.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on May 03, 2020, 09:41:26 AM
I know that Nørgård has increasingly suffered from an illness that causes mobility problems, that has been publicized in recent years. I can't imagine that that would hinder him from composing, though. My question would be: is his mind still sharp? Dementia has stopped quite a few composers cold. I know that in the past we have had at least one person on this forum who knew the composer personally, so perhaps they would be willing to explain what is up.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on May 03, 2020, 02:29:38 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2020, 09:38:40 AM
Right on, way to make a mountain out of molehill. Your mom would be so proud of you. ::) Not only that, why are you even talking to me? I thought you made it perfectly clear that I'm not the kind of person you would like to talk to?

After this, you went back to replying to the other person who made basically the same point as me. I made a calm point. You, as usual if you don't get your way, went off the deep end.

The rest of us are not responsible for your inability to say what you mean or for it to be logical. Saying that age never stopped a composer means that NO composer ever stopped because of age. Offering a couple of names of people that carried on until death does not prove this. It's actually really obviously wrong.

Your choice to make a big deal out of other people pointing out that you said something really dumb is entirely your own.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on May 03, 2020, 03:41:05 PM
Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2020, 02:29:38 PM
After this, you went back to replying to the other person who made basically the same point as me. I made a calm point. You, as usual if you don't get your way, went off the deep end.

The rest of us are not responsible for your inability to say what you mean or for it to be logical. Saying that age never stopped a composer means that NO composer ever stopped because of age. Offering a couple of names of people that carried on until death does not prove this. It's actually really obviously wrong.

Your choice to make a big deal out of other people pointing out that you said something really dumb is entirely your own.

And yet you continue to talk to me, why?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: schnittkease on May 24, 2020, 10:22:36 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 03, 2020, 08:43:04 AM
John Corigliano (82 this year) is another composer who says he has pretty much stopped now.

Isn't Corigliano still teaching (at least part-time)?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: not edward on May 21, 2021, 07:37:37 AM
Cross-posting my first thoughts from WAYLTT on the new Dacapo recording:

[asin]B091W2SLS8[/asin]

A mixed bag as far as I'm concerned.

The longest work on it is a quintet (for flute, string trio and piano) written when the composer was 20. It's quirky and there's definitely personality behind it but honestly, it's not very good.

More interesting to me is the first recording of Cantica for cello and piano, a work juxtaposing some of the melodies from the 3rd symphony in multiple different (Fibonacci-based) tempi. Though the source material is simple and mostly diatonic, there are moments of complexity and tension that I think prefigure the chaotic music of Nørgård's Wolffli period that was soon to follow.

There's also what's at least the sixth recording of the solo viola sonata The Secret Melody. It's well played, but I'll stick with the bigger tone and personality of the dedicate Nobuko Imai on BIS.

Also on the disc, a couple of miniatures and a first outing on disc of the solo vocal version of Vintersalme (Signe Asmussen is excellent here).

For Nørgård completists only.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: MusicTurner on May 21, 2021, 07:52:06 AM
Thank you, didn't know about this release.

I see that the early quintet is op.1; I really like some early Nørgård, such as the 'Solo Intimo' for cello op.8 and the 'Clarinet Trio' op.15, an earlier LP on the Paula label containing especially fine renditions of those works (never on CD, apparently).

The 1st Symphony 'Austera', also fine, has opus no.13.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: not edward on May 21, 2021, 08:34:53 AM
It's extraordinary how quickly Nørgård was growing at this point.

The first symphony was begun less than 12 months after the quintet was completed, and the level of inspiration and structural rigour is night and day: Holmboe was clearly an exceptional asset in his development.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on May 21, 2021, 06:24:54 PM
Yeah, the big draw of this release is Cantica, because we now have digital recordings of all of the pieces that Nørgård wrote in the late 1970s using the Året melody. The Opus 1 also fills in a gap in the discography. But I don't see the point of another release of The Secret Melody, especially considering that there are so many works in his catalogue that have not been recorded at all yet.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: not edward on May 22, 2021, 07:51:12 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on May 21, 2021, 06:24:54 PM
Yeah, the big draw of this release is Cantica, because we now have digital recordings of all of the pieces that Nørgård wrote in the late 1970s using the Året melody.
Is there a recording of the instrumental version of Now all the Earth is white as snow? I only have one that is performed concurrently with some of the choral Året works.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on November 17, 2021, 07:32:53 PM
Finally managed to listen to Cantica, which got its premiere recording on the Dacapo disc earlier this year. I was struck by the sudden emotional turns in the first movement, which look ahead to the Wölfli period. I had heard it said that the piece Seadrift, written before Nørgård's first encounter with Wölfli's art, showed that the composer was already feeling the need to explore conflict and polarities. This piece, too, suggests some creative turmoil was already going on in 1977.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: MusicTurner on July 13, 2022, 01:03:55 AM
Nørgård turns 90 today. Obviously it's being marked and celebrated here, including Dacapo releasing the 8 symphonies as a box set.

The free Danish web newsletter 'Seismograf' has two features about him; no interviews, I'm not aware of any on the occasion anywhere, but it's being mentioned that he's actually been participating in a current recording project for about a year, in 'The Village Studio' in the Vanløse suburb, where he improvises on the piano, accompanied by the cellist Jacob Kullberg and jazz percussion.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: MusicTurner on July 13, 2022, 01:13:45 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on November 17, 2021, 07:32:53 PM
Finally managed to listen to Cantica, which got its premiere recording on the Dacapo disc earlier this year. I was struck by the sudden emotional turns in the first movement, which look ahead to the Wölfli period. I had heard it said that the piece Seadrift, written before Nørgård's first encounter with Wölfli's art, showed that the composer was already feeling the need to explore conflict and polarities. This piece, too, suggests some creative turmoil was already going on in 1977.

A Seismograf article today by Jørgen I. Jensen, Tidens Lys, mentions how Nørgård suffered from an existential panic attack in December 1972.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: not edward on July 13, 2022, 08:07:22 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on July 13, 2022, 01:03:55 AM
Nørgård turns 90 today. Obviously it's being marked and celebrated here, including Dacapo releasing the 8 symphonies as a box set.

The free Danish web newsletter 'Seismograf' has two features about him; no interviews, I'm not aware of any on the occasion anywhere, but it's being mentioned that he's actually been participating in a current recording project for about a year, in 'The Village Studio' in the Vanløse suburb, where he improvises on the piano, accompanied by the cellist Jacob Kullberg and jazz percussion.
So happy to hear that he's still active musically, particularly given that no new notated music has come in quite a while. Hope he has many more years of musicmaking left.

Without doubt my favourite living composer: such a huge technical and expressive range, yet it (at least from about 1959 on) all sounds unquestionably Nørgård.

And honestly, even the earlier works are strong: I sometimes joke that the 1st symphony is my favourite Holmboe symphony.  :)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on July 13, 2022, 08:15:37 AM
I like the symphonies and SQs from Nørgård, but little else has grabbed me. I think I recall his VCs being quite good. What other works would you guys recommend?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: not edward on July 13, 2022, 09:02:44 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 13, 2022, 08:15:37 AM
I like the symphonies and SQs from Nørgård, but little else has grabbed me. I think I recall his VCs being quite good. What other works would you guys recommend?
Off the top of my head:
- the piano concerto (on the Segerstam recording of the 3rd symphony)
- Kanon for organ (almost the ultimate infinity series wallow)
- the protospectralist '60s chamber orchestra works Iris, Luna and Voyage into the Golden Screen
- Some of the more substantial choral works, perhaps Drømmesange, Frostsalme, Wie ein Kind and Mytisk morgen with its delicious bass clarinet part (I'm a big admirer of Den foruroligende ælling but it's almost impossible to find a recording of it these days).
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on July 13, 2022, 09:27:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 13, 2022, 08:15:37 AM
I like the symphonies and SQs from Nørgård, but little else has grabbed me. I think I recall his VCs being quite good. What other works would you guys recommend?

If one is a fan of the Second and Third Symphonies, the operas Gilgamesh and Siddharta, respectively, are the natural companions to them.

Quote from: not edward on July 13, 2022, 09:02:44 AM
I'm a big admirer of Den foruroligende ælling but it's almost impossible to find a recording of it these days.

Used copies of the 1993 recording are available on the market (https://www.discogs.com/release/15582836-Vokalgruppen-Ars-Nova-Per-N%C3%B8rg%C3%A5rd-Den-Foruroligende-%C3%86lling).
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: MusicTurner on July 13, 2022, 09:55:06 AM
Quote from: not edward on July 13, 2022, 09:02:44 AM
Off the top of my head:
- the piano concerto (on the Segerstam recording of the 3rd symphony)
(...)

I totally agree about the 'Piano Concerto', but MI has already expressed here that he definitely doesn't like it.

- 'Terrains Vagues' for orchestra;

- 'Percussion Concerto, For A Change' (Mortensen recording);

- works for string orchestra, largely in a more romantically coloured style (Kangas recording)

- Clarinet Trio op.15

- Solo cello works



Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on July 13, 2022, 12:21:38 PM
Quote from: CRCulver on July 13, 2022, 09:27:13 AM
If one is a fan of the Second and Third Symphonies, the operas Gilgamesh and Siddharta, respectively, are the natural companions to them.

Used copies of the 1993 recording are available on the market (https://www.discogs.com/release/15582836-Vokalgruppen-Ars-Nova-Per-N%C3%B8rg%C3%A5rd-Den-Foruroligende-%C3%86lling).
Quote from: not edward on July 13, 2022, 09:02:44 AM
Off the top of my head:
- the piano concerto (on the Segerstam recording of the 3rd symphony)
- Kanon for organ (almost the ultimate infinity series wallow)
- the protospectralist '60s chamber orchestra works Iris, Luna and Voyage into the Golden Screen
- Some of the more substantial choral works, perhaps Drømmesange, Frostsalme, Wie ein Kind and Mytisk morgen with its delicious bass clarinet part (I'm a big admirer of Den foruroligende ælling but it's almost impossible to find a recording of it these days).
Quote from: MusicTurner on July 13, 2022, 09:55:06 AM
I totally agree about the 'Piano Concerto', but MI has already expressed here that he definitely doesn't like it.

- 'Terrains Vagues' for orchestra;

- 'Percussion Concerto, For A Change' (Mortensen recording);

- works for string orchestra, largely in a more romantically coloured style (Kangas recording)

- Clarinet Trio op.15

- Solo cello works

Thanks, guys! You've given me much to mull over.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on July 14, 2022, 04:54:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 13, 2022, 08:15:37 AM
I like the symphonies and SQs from Nørgård, but little else has grabbed me. I think I recall his VCs being quite good. What other works would you guys recommend?

Have you ever heard the trio Spell?

It was actually my gateway drug. Thanks to this particular recording.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/31W8BzX86GL.jpg)

Yes of course I got it for the Holmboe... anyway, Spell is from between the 2nd and 3rd symphonies so it has that infinity series vibe. And it entranced me in ways that 'minimalists' like Glass never did.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: MusicTurner on July 14, 2022, 05:32:00 AM
Yes, and Spell has been recorded both as a clarinet trio and an ordinary piano trio, the clarinet version probably more well-known.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2022, 06:13:40 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 14, 2022, 04:54:13 AM
Have you ever heard the trio Spell?

It was actually my gateway drug. Thanks to this particular recording.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/31W8BzX86GL.jpg)

Yes of course I got it for the Holmboe... anyway, Spell is from between the 2nd and 3rd symphonies so it has that infinity series vibe. And it entranced me in ways that 'minimalists' like Glass never did.

I'll check it out, Madiel. Thanks!
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on July 14, 2022, 12:34:14 PM
Quote from: MusicTurner on July 14, 2022, 05:32:00 AM
Yes, and Spell has been recorded both as a clarinet trio and an ordinary piano trio, the clarinet version probably more well-known.

Yes, from memory the clarinet form is actually the original. Though Nørgård himself seems extremely comfortable with rearranging works (often renaming them in the process!)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: krummholz on July 15, 2022, 09:29:24 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 14, 2022, 04:54:13 AM
Have you ever heard the trio Spell?

It was actually my gateway drug. Thanks to this particular recording.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/31W8BzX86GL.jpg)

Yes of course I got it for the Holmboe... anyway, Spell is from between the 2nd and 3rd symphonies so it has that infinity series vibe. And it entranced me in ways that 'minimalists' like Glass never did.

I've had this disc (like you I got it for the Holmboe) but had never listened to the Norgard until now. "Spell"binding indeed... and despite the static nature of much of the piece, it continually surprises with unlooked-for snatches of lyricism and, at times, rather aggressive development. I'd love to see a score of this work... I'm really not sure how one would notate this.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on July 16, 2022, 01:43:38 PM
Quote from: krummholz on July 15, 2022, 09:29:24 AM
I'd love to see a score of this work... I'm really not sure how one would notate this.

IIRC (and it has been a long time), Spell is notated in a traditional way. However, the solo-piano and solo-harpsichord piece Turn on which is it based, has an interesting alternative notation that is worth seeing.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on July 16, 2022, 02:26:41 PM
Lots of his scores are on Issuu but this doesn't seem to be one of them.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on September 27, 2022, 04:44:32 PM
I am very much enjoying traversing Norgard's symphony cycle from Thomas Dausgaard/Danish National Symphony.  I'm half way through but think their presentation order is fantastic. 

Symphony No. 3 which is his most expansive with chorus, large orchestra and organ.  Then Symphony No. 7, which is terse but clearly from the same composer.  Next is No. 1 which I used to think was Sibelian but now I think it has more in common with Holmboe.  I love it because of its clarity of idea and succinctly tense atmosphere.  It's subtitle of "Sinfonia Austera" is appropriate.    Next is No. 8 which I haven't heard before.  I also hear some mid period Rautavaara in what I've heard so far. I highly recommend those not familiar with this wonderful composer to investigate his output.  A very fine composer of accessibility, depth, and complexity. 

Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on September 29, 2022, 05:41:23 AM
Last night, I got to Norgard's No. 8.  That was quite weak and meandering.  Paired with No. 1 which is a favorite.  Seemed like No. 8 had nothing to say and felt twice its length. 
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Scion7 on September 29, 2022, 08:35:10 AM
He's a composer on the 'death watch' list - still going and born in '32.   :o
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Maestro267 on September 29, 2022, 08:42:16 AM
Yes. I think this every time I see there's new posts in this thread.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: vandermolen on September 29, 2022, 12:36:29 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 29, 2022, 05:41:23 AM
Last night, I got to Norgard's No. 8.  That was quite weak and meandering.  Paired with No. 1 which is a favorite.  Seemed like No. 8 had nothing to say and felt twice its length.
Symphony No.1 'Austera' is my favourite, although I prefer the recording on Chandos.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 29, 2022, 02:51:28 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 29, 2022, 12:36:29 PM
Symphony No.1 'Austera' is my favourite, although I prefer the recording on Chandos.

Because it is an English record label, isn't it?  ;)
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on September 29, 2022, 04:27:38 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 29, 2022, 12:36:29 PM
Symphony No.1 'Austera' is my favourite, although I prefer the recording on Chandos.

I agree with you (again).  It's always nice to hear other interpretations though because it freshes up a work.  No. 8 was real downer for me but the next disc was No. 6 and 2 and I very much enjoyed it.  But like Vandermolen mentioned, I prefer the chandos recording of No. 2 (on the same disc of No. 1).  Just more dynamic overall.  But good music.  Tomorrow is No. 5 and 4, the final disc in this collection.  Was the chandos a complete cycle?
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on September 29, 2022, 07:12:52 PM
The Chandos couldn't cover everything because it wasn't all composed at that point. It has the first 6 symphonies, plus a piano concerto and an orchestral work.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: CRCulver on September 30, 2022, 09:02:17 AM
Quote from: Madiel on September 29, 2022, 07:12:52 PM
The Chandos couldn't cover everything because it wasn't all composed at that point.

Plus, Chandos' ownership changed around 2004 and they stopped recording much late 20th-century music and beyond, so composers like Nørgård, Schnittke, and Gubaidulina no longer appeared on the label, and symphony cycles were left incomplete. That's rather a pity, since I like the sound engineering of Chandos' Nørgård recordings more than Dacapo's.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Madiel on September 30, 2022, 01:47:06 PM
Quote from: CRCulver on September 30, 2022, 09:02:17 AM
Plus, Chandos' ownership changed around 2004 and they stopped recording much late 20th-century music and beyond, so composers like Nørgård, Schnittke, and Gubaidulina no longer appeared on the label, and symphony cycles were left incomplete. That's rather a pity, since I like the sound engineering of Chandos' Nørgård recordings more than Dacapo's.

Really?

The only Chandos I tried was the one with Symphony 4, and it didn't do anything much for me in comparison to Dacapo. For me, this is a composer that absolutely benefits from the kind of clear sound that Dacapo delivers. But each to their own. I might try streaming more Chandos at some point.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: Alex Bozman on September 30, 2022, 03:07:54 PM
I like the first four symphonies, with the 3rd being a personal favourite. However the later symphonies, I find it very hard to get a handle on.
Title: Re: Nørgård's Niche
Post by: relm1 on September 30, 2022, 04:40:41 PM
I completed my traversal of Norgard's symphonies with No. 5 and 4.  I very much enjoyed No. 5.  This would have been a fantastic No. 8 if it were his last one because it really encapsulates his cycle and reminds me of all that's come before even ending with a echoes of first symphony.  I love symphonies where they end either wrapping up their cycle or using it as a springboard to the undiscovered territory of the future.  No. 5 was very interesting and might be my second favorite of his.

No. 4 minor complaint but I think No. 4 should have been first on this album because No. 5 is better conclusion and is also sequentially later so works well in someone like me wanting to traverse a cycle in its entirety.  Aside from that, the "Chinese Witches Lake" (second movement was intense).  This is a solid album of contemporary symphonic music.  This is my second favorite album – very strong, color, and impactful contemporary music.

In conclusion, I very much enjoyed this traversal.  All the symphonies were interesting and showed a very complex yet accessible composer except for No. 8 which eludes me.  I might give it another go tomorrow.  If I hear everything from a composer and admire all the works except one of them, makes me think I missed something so need to try again.  With that said, I'm a sophisticated listener very used to contemporary music so don't mind it being challenging but don't like it being boring.  Sort of like with Atterberg where I greatly enjoy all the symphonies, but No. 9 doesn't really connect with me.  I don't hate it, I just don't need to ever hear it again.  But what about Shostakovich No. 2 and 3?  I don't think they're bad, they just don't live up to the title of "Shostakovich Symphony".  By any other composer, they probably would be highly regarded.  I think Norgard is an interesting composer and major symphonist whose life occupies the bulk of the 20th century.  His symphonies are generally well structured (with the exception of No. 8 which I'll put in a category of my needing to revisit).  They are inventive, challenging, but accessible.  I think they are better than Sir Peter Maxwell Davies but similar to Henze's cycle.  Maybe that should be my next cyclic traversal.