GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 01:26:30 PM

Title: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 01:26:30 PM
What do you enjoy here for recordings (either or both books)?  HIP and Non-HIP suggestions welcome.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Holden on May 06, 2007, 03:57:05 PM
If you can get it - Samuil Feinberg. I also enjoy Richter and, surprisingly, Jeno Jando
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bunny on May 06, 2007, 05:04:06 PM
Glen Wilson, Bob van Asperen, Ottavio Dantone, Gustav Leonhardt -- all on harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Don on May 06, 2007, 05:43:22 PM
Quote from: Bunny on May 06, 2007, 05:04:06 PM
Glen Wilson, Bob van Asperen, Ottavio Dantone, Gustav Leonhardt -- all on harpsichord.

Agree, and I would add Landowska, Gilbert, Suzuki and Verlet.

On piano, there's Gould, Gulda, Fellner/Bk. 1, Richter, Feinberg, Aldwell, Tureck, Crochet, Fischer and Nikolayeva.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 05:54:20 PM

I'll add the third vote for Richter. SURPRISE!  ;D

Book one was remastered on RCA, but book two wasn't.  :'(
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 05:55:13 PM
Quote from: Holden on May 06, 2007, 03:57:05 PM
If you can get it - Samuil Feinberg.

I've seen this about on the "Classical records" label. How's the sound?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 06:37:22 PM
Thanks for the feedback.  My knee-jerk reaction to the above is Gould.

Is Andras Schiff's work here worth a listen?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: The Mad Hatter on May 06, 2007, 06:47:53 PM
I've heard that the Schiff is the best if you want 'traditional' Bach.

Personally, I'll almost always go for Gould (har, har) - his playing just speaks to me in a way very few other performers do.

The Jando on Naxos I don't really enjoy - can't hear the voicing very clearly.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bunny on May 06, 2007, 08:05:16 PM
Quote from: Don on May 06, 2007, 05:43:22 PM
Agree, and I would add Landowska, Gilbert, Suzuki and Verlet.

On piano, there's Gould, Gulda, Fellner/Bk. 1, Richter, Feinberg, Aldwell, Tureck, Crochet, Fischer and Nikolayeva.

Oops, forgot the Landowska!

I love the Fellner and the Tureck.  I wish Fellner would hurry up and record Bk II!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on May 06, 2007, 08:38:04 PM
Another vote for Glen Wilson on harpsichord and Glen Glould on piano!

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Justin Ignaz Franz Bieber on May 06, 2007, 10:31:14 PM
Quote from: Bunny on May 06, 2007, 05:04:06 PM
Glen Wilson, Bob van Asperen, Ottavio Dantone, Gustav Leonhardt -- all on harpsichord.

I haven't heard any of those but I imagine they're all very good. I bet Lar Ulrik Mortensen & Ludger Remy have good recordings (that is if they do have recordings at all...)

For piano I was a surprised that I didn't like Gould's recording but I'm much happier with Richter's. I don't think I like WTC enough to collect a whole bunch of them though.  :-\
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: val on May 07, 2007, 12:42:15 AM
Harpsichord: Gustav Leonhardt

Piano: Friedrich Gulda
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Don on May 07, 2007, 01:39:49 AM
Quote from: The Mad Hatter on May 06, 2007, 06:47:53 PM
I've heard that the Schiff is the best if you want 'traditional' Bach.


I've never heard the above.  I do consider Schiff's WTC his best Bach recording except for his Goldbergs on ECM.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: marvinbrown on May 07, 2007, 06:01:32 AM
Quote from: val on May 07, 2007, 12:42:15 AM
Harpsichord: Gustav Leonhardt


Agreed!

  marvin
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Josquin des Prez on May 07, 2007, 06:04:28 AM
Harpsichord: Gilbert.

Piano: Feltsman.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: E d o on May 07, 2007, 10:09:47 AM
Edwin Fischer does it for me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: helios on May 07, 2007, 10:15:05 AM
Gould enlivens the music like no other.  Though if you're a purist,  I suggest Angela Hewitt.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Don on May 07, 2007, 12:31:55 PM
Quote from: helios on May 07, 2007, 10:15:05 AM
Gould enlivens the music like no other.  Though if you're a purist,  I suggest Angela Hewitt.

Unusual, recommending a piano version to a purist.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bunny on May 07, 2007, 03:26:46 PM
Quote from: Don on May 07, 2007, 12:31:55 PM
Unusual, recommending a piano version to a purist.

>:D  8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: helios on May 08, 2007, 01:09:57 AM
Quote from: Don on May 07, 2007, 12:31:55 PM
Unusual, recommending a piano version to a purist.

Haha.. good point.   ;D

You know what I meant though.... a piano version more faithful to the score.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: marvinbrown on May 08, 2007, 02:02:17 AM
Quote from: helios on May 08, 2007, 01:09:57 AM
Haha.. good point.   ;D

You know what I meant though.... a piano version more faithful to the score.  ;)

  This whole argument of piano vs harpsichord seems to rear its ugly head very often and especially when it comes to Bach's keyboard works.  The Well-Tempered Clavier is not immune to this. I must admit that it always disturbs me when I come to buy Bach's keyboard music. There is always this nagging voice in my head that says that the piano is not a baroque instrument and the spirit of Bach's music is lost.  I do not know how I am going to get around this or if I ever can.  I find that Gustav Leonhart's harpsichord recording of the Well Tempered Clavier as baroque as one can get and as close to the spirit of these works as one can get.  Finally I would like to add that I do not have any recording of Bach's keyboard works on piano-not even the illustrious Glen Gould recordings of the Goldberg Variations on piano.   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Don on May 08, 2007, 05:47:15 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 08, 2007, 02:02:17 AM
  This whole argument of piano vs harpsichord seems to rear its ugly head very often and especially when it comes to Bach's keyboard works.  The Well-Tempered Clavier is not immune to this. I must admit that it always disturbs me when I come to buy Bach's keyboard music. There is always this nagging voice in my head that says that the piano is not a baroque instrument and the spirit of Bach's music is lost.  I do not know how I am going to get around this or if I ever can. 

I know the feeling, but I don't believe that piano versions of Bach's keyboard music necessarily lose the spirit of Bach's music; it depends on the pianist.  For every piano version that is wayward, such as Bareboim's, there are many that I feel well reflect Bach's soundworld and emotional content.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: orbital on May 08, 2007, 06:05:25 AM
Quote from: val on May 07, 2007, 12:42:15 AM
Harpsichord: Gustav Leonhardt

Piano: Friedrich Gulda
Leonhardt is the only harpischord version I have, so I can't make comparisions there, but about Gulda.. I know it is highly revered, but I find it way too dry  :-[ I'd go with Feinberg (of similar mold) instead.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Don on May 08, 2007, 06:06:59 AM
Quote from: orbital on May 08, 2007, 06:05:25 AM
Leonhardt is the only harpischord version I have, so I can't make comparisions there, but about Gulda.. I know it is highly revered, but I find it way too dry  :-[ I'd go with Feinberg (of similar mold) instead.


Gulda can seem dry, but I think there's a wealth of emotional content below the surface.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SimonGodders on May 08, 2007, 06:56:18 AM
Quote from: George on May 06, 2007, 05:54:20 PM
I'll add the third vote for Richter. SURPRISE!  ;D

Book one was remastered on RCA, but book two wasn't.  :'(

I've got the original four CD set, is the sound significantly better on the re-mastering George?

Will Bk2 have a release?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Steve on May 08, 2007, 07:03:33 AM
Quote from: SimonGodders on May 08, 2007, 06:56:18 AM
I've got the original four CD set, is the sound significantly better on the re-mastering George?

Will Bk2 have a release?

I own the remastered edition, and found the sonics to be perfectly adequate. Of course, I haven't heard the originial.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on May 08, 2007, 07:04:15 AM
Quote from: SimonGodders on May 08, 2007, 06:56:18 AM
I've got the original four CD set, is the sound significantly better on the re-mastering George?

I haven't heard the original. My book 2 is an MP3 so I can't really compare.

Quote
Will Bk2 have a release?

That the $64 question. Why they did only one book makes NO sense to me at all. Perhaps the orangutans who run RCA will work this out at some point. Nah!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SimonGodders on May 08, 2007, 07:07:08 AM
Quote from: George on May 08, 2007, 07:04:15 AM
orangutans who run RCA will work this out at some point. Nah!

How offensive to Orangutans
:-*
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on May 08, 2007, 07:12:09 AM
Quote from: SimonGodders on May 08, 2007, 07:07:08 AM
How offensive to Orangutans
:-*

;D

BTW, can I have a mini review of the Fienberg? Does he offer that different of take from Richter? Also, which transfer? Is the one on "Classical Records" decent? The price is a little steep IMO.

That's one thing I hate about this work. It's expensive to collect.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SimonGodders on May 08, 2007, 07:21:33 AM
Quote from: George on May 08, 2007, 07:12:09 AM
;D

BTW, can I have a mini review of the Fienberg? Does he offer that different of take from Richter? Also, which transfer? Is the one on "Classical Records" decent? The price is a little steep IMO.

That's one thing I hate about this work. It's expensive to collect.

Got a link for it George?

You're right, expensive stuff this WTC collecting! Been having a mosey around, the Schiff looks cheapish, but not sure I'ld like it that much. Would contrast nicely with the Richter though...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: orbital on May 08, 2007, 08:06:12 AM
Quote from: George on May 08, 2007, 07:12:09 AM
;D

BTW, can I have a mini review of the Fienberg?

Why have a mini when you can have a maxi  :D
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-WTC-Feinberg.htm
This coming from our own Don  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on May 08, 2007, 10:10:06 AM
Quote from: orbital on May 08, 2007, 08:06:12 AM
Why have a mini when you can have a maxi  :D
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-WTC-Feinberg.htm
This coming from our own Don  :)

Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on May 08, 2007, 10:15:40 AM
Quote from: SimonGodders on May 08, 2007, 07:21:33 AM
Got a link for it George?

http://cgi.ebay.com/piano-archive-SAMUIL-FEINBERG-BACH-WTC-3CD-Set-RUSSIAN_W0QQitemZ140106856891QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/piano-archive-SAMUIL-FEINBERG-BACH-WTC-3CD-Set-RUSSIAN_W0QQitemZ140106856891QQcmdZViewItem)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Maciek on May 08, 2007, 01:45:30 PM
Quote from: James on May 08, 2007, 01:21:35 PM
the flimsy thin undynamic harpsichord which sounds like skeletons copulating in a bisket tin...

LOL

Whatever ones thoughts re the harpsichord vs piano dilemma (I happen to prefer piano too), one has to admire the description quoted above... ;D

Maciek
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: helios on May 09, 2007, 01:08:17 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 08, 2007, 02:02:17 AM
  This whole argument of piano vs harpsichord seems to rear its ugly head very often and especially when it comes to Bach's keyboard works.  The Well-Tempered Clavier is not immune to this. I must admit that it always disturbs me when I come to buy Bach's keyboard music. There is always this nagging voice in my head that says that the piano is not a baroque instrument and the spirit of Bach's music is lost.  I do not know how I am going to get around this or if I ever can.  I find that Gustav Leonhart's harpsichord recording of the Well Tempered Clavier as baroque as one can get and as close to the spirit of these works as one can get.  Finally I would like to add that I do not have any recording of Bach's keyboard works on piano-not even the illustrious Glen Gould recordings of the Goldberg Variations on piano.   

Well, I'm sure this argument has been had on here a 100 times (maybe less, maybe more), but I vastly prefer the piano's sound and have no doubt that, had the piano been available, Bach would have chosen to write for it instead of the Harpsichord.   I don't think any "spirit" is lost whatsoever on the piano - it's simply a superior instrument.

Then again, I've never been taken with the whole period instrument craze.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Don on May 09, 2007, 05:23:48 AM
Quote from: helios on May 09, 2007, 01:08:17 AM
Well, I'm sure this argument has been had on here a 100 times (maybe less, maybe more), but I vastly prefer the piano's sound and have no doubt that, had the piano been available, Bach would have chosen to write for it instead of the Harpsichord.   I don't think any "spirit" is lost whatsoever on the piano - it's simply a superior instrument.

Then again, I've never been taken with the whole period instrument craze.

My view is that the piano is simply a different instrument and that Bach would have composed for both the piano and harpsichord. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bunny on May 09, 2007, 08:19:09 AM
Quote from: James on May 08, 2007, 01:21:35 PM
a version on modern piano (not harpsichord) is the best way to experience this work....shines a whole new light on Bach's polyphonic genius that cannot be heard on the flimsy thin undynamic harpsichord which sounds like skeletons copulating in a bisket tin...

many of the great composers who proceeded bach learnt a great deal about composing from playing this work on the piano....i.e. mozart, beethoven, chopin, schumann, liszt etc etc etc

Mozart probably played it on a harpsichord, an instrument he was very familiar with.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 12:40:27 PM
Quote from: James on May 09, 2007, 12:38:07 PM
....unlike say Beethoven's keyboard works which were written very specifically to that instrument and it's resources/sounds and would be hard to re-create on other instruments, or sound convincing even.

They certainly sound convincing in the other direction (symphonies on piano), so I am not so sure that I agree with this point... :-\
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Don on May 09, 2007, 12:42:14 PM
Quote from: James on May 09, 2007, 12:38:07 PM
yeah but Bach never really composed like that, he wasn't a "knight of the keyboard" as he famously said once, he didn't compose for the instrument specifically....he was more tapped into the very source, pure music in it's absolute form...consolidated from the great vocal polyphony that came before him, and thats how he wrote, that's why much of his music sounds good on pretty much anything and it quite easily tranferable, another reason why he's such a towering genius....

If it sounds good on "pretty much anything", why do you say disparaging things about the harpsichord?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 12:54:20 PM
Quote from: James on May 09, 2007, 12:46:10 PM
im not talking about transcriptions liszt made of the symphonies, im more pointing to beethoven's sonatas, like the late ones for instance....

Those transcriptions certainly sound quite a bit like the original, suggesting that they aren't all that different from the original. If that is true, then this shows that his orchestral music works as a keyboard work. Therefore, I am having trouble seeing why the reverse wouldn't be true. Like say with the Hammerklavier for instance.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Don on May 09, 2007, 12:55:29 PM
Quote from: James on May 09, 2007, 12:49:39 PM
how would beethoven's sonatas sound on the harpsichord? hmmmmm

with bach the music works on both quite easily, heck is sounds nifty on mini moog too.  8)

Well, your negative remarks about the harpsichord do seem contrary to your position above.

As for Beethoven on harpsichord, I'd like to hear some of that.  Maybe I'd find it fantastic.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: helios on May 10, 2007, 12:14:56 AM
Quote from: James on May 09, 2007, 01:09:24 PM
yeah but Bach never really composed like that, he wasn't a "knight of the keyboard" as he famously said once, he didn't compose for the instrument specifically....he was more tapped into the very source, pure music in it's absolute form...consolidated from the great vocal polyphony that came before him, and thats how he wrote, that's why much of his music sounds good on pretty much anything and it quite easily tranferable, another reason why he's such a towering genius....unlike say Beethoven's keyboard works which were written very specifically to that instrument and it's resources/sounds and would be hard to re-create on other instruments, or sound convincing even.

Quote from: James on May 09, 2007, 01:09:24 PM
you can make a piano transcription/reduction of most stuff....but my point is that beethoven's piano works, like the sonatas are written for the piano specifically, they are highly pianistic....they would lose a lot if played on the harpsichord.

This argument is particularly unconvincing.    Earlier works always are more easily transferred to modern instruments than vice-versa.   I doubt Messiaen sounds particularly good on a harpsichord either, yet you probably get away with Handel on an electronic keyboard  ;)

In fact, this is true for most aspects of life.   Take the (pedestrian) example of Microsoft Excel.   A spreadsheet created in an earlier version can be opened in a later version.   The reverse does not hold true.  Why?  Because the spreadsheet created in a later version took full advantage of the new capabilities.  Beethoven also took advantage of the more dynamic piano.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Don on May 10, 2007, 08:39:58 AM
Quote from: James on May 09, 2007, 01:09:24 PM
you can make a piano transcription/reduction of most stuff....but my point is that beethoven's piano works, like the sonatas are written for the piano specifically, they are highly pianistic....they would lose a lot if played on the harpsichord.

The proof is in the listening, but I'm not aware of any harpsichord versions of these works.  Are there any?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on May 10, 2007, 10:10:59 AM
Quote from: James on May 10, 2007, 05:57:43 AM
...i like how for instance he took the leipzig organ chorales and arranged them for voice...

?? which ones??
If you think of the Schüblerchorales for organ, the transcriptions were made the other way round, i.e. from vocal version to organ version.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on May 10, 2007, 10:14:48 AM
Quote from: George on May 09, 2007, 12:54:20 PM
Like say with the Hammerklavier for instance.

You probably know, that Felix Weingartner arranged op. 106 for symphony orchester and recorded it (recording rereleased on CD by Naxos).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on May 10, 2007, 10:16:33 AM
Quote from: Don on May 09, 2007, 12:55:29 PM
As for Beethoven on harpsichord, I'd like to hear some of that.  Maybe I'd find it fantastic.

Do you really imagine a harpsichord being able to meet the expressive demands of Beethoven?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 10:39:45 AM
Quote from: premont on May 10, 2007, 10:14:48 AM
You probably know, that Felix Weingartner arranged op. 106 for symphony orchester and recorded it (recording rereleased on CD by Naxos).

I didn't know, actually. Thanks.

I believe that Horowitz said that Rubinstein once said that the Hammerklavier is the 9th symphony for piano, so I naturally thought that it would work as a symphony.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sean on May 10, 2007, 10:43:16 AM
I'd argue that music originally written for fortepiano is better played on a piano because a piano is, above any other considerations, simply a good fortepiano. However music written for harpsichord is best on a harpsichord because the two are far too different, indeed inhabiting different aesthetic worlds.

Kenneth Gilbert's 48 is surely still unsurpassed, finding extreme subtlety and variety within the idiom.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bunny on May 11, 2007, 03:33:43 AM
Quote from: premont on May 10, 2007, 10:16:33 AM
Do you really imagine a harpsichord being able to meet the expressive demands of Beethoven?

True, but it would be very interesting to hear certain pieces in which he makes use of broken chords on the harpsichord.  I think Für Elise would translate very well.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Don on May 11, 2007, 05:51:09 AM
Quote from: premont on May 10, 2007, 10:16:33 AM
Do you really imagine a harpsichord being able to meet the expressive demands of Beethoven?

Probably not, but I'm more than willing to hold judgement until I hear the results.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: The Mad Hatter on May 13, 2007, 03:05:57 PM
Quote from: George on May 10, 2007, 10:39:45 AM
I didn't know, actually. Thanks.

I believe that Horowitz said that Rubinstein once said that the Hammerklavier is the 9th symphony for piano, so I naturally thought that it would work as a symphony.



I imagine they meant in expressive range and technical accomplishment, rather than any more direct comparison to it as a symphony. I certainly can't imagine any orchestration that would work - . But that said, I can no longer hear Pictures at an Exhibition as a piano piece either, so I suppose it's possible.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bogey on May 13, 2007, 07:00:17 PM
Quote from: The Mad Hatter on May 13, 2007, 03:05:57 PM
I imagine they meant in expressive range and technical accomplishment, rather than any more direct comparison to it as a symphony. I certainly can't imagine any orchestration that would work - . But that said, I can no longer hear Pictures at an Exhibition as a piano piece either, so I suppose it's possible.

I would like to hear that.  Hatter, did you get my PM?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on September 22, 2008, 06:46:37 AM
Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to convince me of the greatness of Gould's recording of WTC Book 1.   ;D

You see, as a Bach fan, I want a copy of the WTC. Right now in shops locally, I can obtain Gould (Bk. 1), Kirkpatrick (Bk. 1) and Tureck (DG Bk. 1 and 2). I don't want the last two because of the instrument and price, respectively. I know that a lot of people rave about Gould's recording of this work. But a few days ago, I sampled the first prelude - it went 'plop plop plop ploP PLOP Plop plop plop'. A little later I sampled Schiff and I could easily hear the lovely 'Ave Maria' tune. I have also listened to harpsichord and clavichord...no "plopping" there. Is this why many people complain Gould of being "mechanical" and "cold"?


P.S.: This post will NOT self-destruct in 5 seconds.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on September 22, 2008, 01:20:19 PM
Quote from: opus67 on September 22, 2008, 06:46:37 AM
Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to convince me of the greatness of Gould's recording of WTC Book 1.   ;D

You see, as a Bach fan, I want a copy of the WTC. Right now in shops locally, I can obtain Gould (Bk. 1), Kirkpatrick (Bk. 1) and Tureck (DG Bk. 1 and 2). I don't want the last two because of the instrument and price, respectively. I know that a lot of people rave about Gould's recording of this work. But a few days ago, I sampled the first prelude - it went 'plop plop plop ploP PLOP Plop plop plop'. A little later I sampled Schiff and I could easily hear the lovely 'Ave Maria' tune. I have also listened to harpsichord and clavichord...no "plopping" there. Is this why many people complain Gould of being "mechanical" and "cold"?


I wouldn't want to try to convince anyone that my opinion of Gould's WTC is the one that others should hold or adopt, particularly for a body of music that is compelling in so many different types of interpretation.  There are folks who find Gould not very musical, but I'm not one of them.  If you don't like how Gould plays the Prelude in C major, perhaps you won't care much for his other performances of the set.

I gather you're not a fan of the fortepiano; that's fine.  As for Tureck's DG complete set, yes the price is quite high, but this set is probably the most compelling classical music performance I have ever heard.  So as far as I'm concerned, the cost means nothing.  And don't forget her other sets on BBC Legends.  Of course, if you don't take well to Tureck (and plenty don't), you'll feel like a big-time loser.

These are hard times, and WTC acquisition decisions are difficult.  If you offer up some of your basic musical preferences, I could possibly provide you with decent insights.  Some potential considerations:

1.  Any problem with historical recordings with sub-par sound; that's Tureck's DG situation.
2.  In the sound spectrum from very dry to wet, what's your preference?
3.  Prefer rounded or sharp contours.
4.  Prefer exuberant or reflective interpreations.
5.  Do you want Bach's dark side prominently displayed?
6.  How about Bach heard as "Papa Bach"?
7.  Is detail important to you or are you more concerned with musical sweep?
8.  Harpsichord okay?
9.  Lean or full textures.
10.Etc.

I own many dozens of WTC sets, and it's clear to me that no one artist can give you everything that's great about Bach's music.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: E d o on September 22, 2008, 02:36:43 PM
The sound on Tureck's set is pretty bad. Hell, I find Fisher's more listenable. I wouldn't want to be without my Gould set though.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on September 22, 2008, 02:47:03 PM
Quote from: E d o on September 22, 2008, 02:36:43 PM
The sound on Tureck's set is pretty bad. Hell, I find Fisher's more listenable.

Although I find the sound on both rather lousy, I notice it less with Tureck.  I suppose that's because I find her interpretations more transcendent.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on September 23, 2008, 06:36:02 AM
Thanks for the reply, Don.

Quote from: Bulldog on September 22, 2008, 01:20:19 PM
If you don't like how Gould plays the Prelude in C major, perhaps you won't care much for his other performances of the set.

Maybe, or maybe not. I was already familiar with the tune of the Prelude in C major, and that was why I found it a bit off-putting. The rest of the WTC are virtually unknown to me. So, if I do end up getting Gould, it could be the "standard" (first exposure to a work) against which I compare others.

QuoteI gather you're not a fan of the fortepiano; that's fine.

I didn't say that. Kirkpatrick plays the clavichord, an instrument that I'm not familiar with. :)

QuoteThese are hard times, and WTC acquisition decisions are difficult.

You make it sound like some sort of economic crisis.  :D  ;)

QuoteIf you offer up some of your basic musical preferences, I could possibly provide you with decent insights.  Some potential considerations:

1.  Any problem with historical recordings with sub-par sound; that's Tureck's DG situation.
2.  In the sound spectrum from very dry to wet, what's your preference?
3.  Prefer rounded or sharp contours.
4.  Prefer exuberant or reflective interpreations.
5.  Do you want Bach's dark side prominently displayed?
6.  How about Bach heard as "Papa Bach"?
7.  Is detail important to you or are you more concerned with musical sweep?
8.  Harpsichord okay?
9.  Lean or full textures.
10.Etc.

I own many dozens of WTC sets, and it's clear to me that no one artist can give you everything that's great about Bach's music.


Wow...that's a lot of questions. I don't even know what to answer for some of them.

1. Prefer newer recordings. No scratchy/hissy ones for now, however historic the recording may be.

5. This interests me a lot. Please do suggest a few recordings that shows JSB's "dark side" according to you. (Even though this is a WTC thread, I am open suggestions for other works, as well.)

6. ???

8. Harpsichord is not an issue, and suggestions are welcome, but I'm usually constrained to buy what's available locally. Ordering from overseas can be a costly affair.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on September 23, 2008, 08:24:18 AM
Quote from: opus67 on September 23, 2008, 06:36:02 AM


5. This interests me a lot. Please do suggest a few recordings that shows JSB's "dark side" according to you. (Even though this is a WTC thread, I am open suggestions for other works, as well.)


I'll just stick to the WTC.  For the dark side, Tureck, Fellner and Richter fully satisfy.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on September 23, 2008, 08:27:10 AM
Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Norbeone on September 23, 2008, 09:11:51 AM
Quote from: opus67 on September 23, 2008, 06:36:02 AM
Maybe, or maybe not. I was already familiar with the tune of the Prelude in C major, and that was why I found it a bit off-putting. The rest of the WTC are virtually unknown to me. So, if I do end up getting Gould, it could be the "standard" (first exposure to a work) against which I compare others.
 


There is no reason why Gould's WTC shouldn't be the first recording you hear. To be honest, the quirky phrasing and articulation he employs in the C Major Prelude is not the kind of thing that runs throughout the whole set. I find almost all of Gould's Preludes and Fugues (particularly the fugues) to be absolutely mesmerizing, full of spontaneity (not randomness) and vitality. There are certainly a few unique Gouldian quirks in some of the preludes that you'll hear no other pianist do, but that's half the fun. 

I'm confident you'll find this a Goulden recommendation!



If you also go for a harpsichord version, I really like Bob van Asperen's recording, and also Gustav Leonardt's.

:)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on September 23, 2008, 09:44:10 AM
Quote from: Norbeone on September 23, 2008, 09:11:51 AM

If you also go for a harpsichord version, I really like Bob van Asperen's recording, and also Gustav Leonardt's.

:)

Same here.  I also love Gilbert's set, and my favorite comes from Glenn Wilson on Teldec.  For those interested in the new Bach/Lehman tuning system, Richard Egarr/Harmonia Mundi and Peter Watchorn/Musica Omnia have both recorded Book 1; it's a very interesting tuning that Lehman contends was the one actually used by Bach. 

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on September 23, 2008, 10:44:45 AM
Quote from: Que on May 06, 2007, 08:38:04 PM
Another vote for Glen Wilson on harpsichord and Glen Glould on piano!

Q

For harpsichord, I'm now adding Ottavio Dantone to my earlier recommendation.
See my comments (and link to samples) HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.msg133655.html#msg133655).

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on September 23, 2008, 10:48:20 AM
Quote from: Norbeone on September 23, 2008, 09:11:51 AM

I find almost all of Gould's Preludes and Fugues (particularly the fugues) to be absolutely mesmerizing, full of spontaneity (not randomness) and vitality.
[emphasis mine]

Yes, I too feel the same, but I'm not sure whether to attribute it to Gould or Bach's wonderful fugues themselves. He does seem to have his own way of playing it, but still...


QuoteIf you also go for a harpsichord version, I really like Bob van Asperen's recording, and also Gustav Leonardt's.
:)

Quote from: Bulldog on September 23, 2008, 09:44:10 AM
Same here.  I also love Gilbert's set, and my favorite comes from Glenn Wilson on Teldec.  For those interested in the new Bach/Lehman tuning system, Richard Egarr/Harmonia Mundi and Peter Watchorn/Musica Omnia have both recorded Book 1; it's a very interesting tuning that Lehman contends was the one actually used by Bach. 

Thanks again for the rec's, guys. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: marvinbrown on September 23, 2008, 11:04:45 AM


  Don  8), not for nothing but could you please explain what you mean by "Papa Bach"??  ??? ??

  marvin
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on September 23, 2008, 12:26:52 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on September 23, 2008, 11:04:45 AM

  Don  8), not for nothing but could you please explain what you mean by "Papa Bach"??  ??? ??

  marvin

Performances that are very spiritually uplifting, as if Bach is standing before us with outstretched arms waiting to envelop us in his enlightenment and security.  It's an emotional thing, and I feel it most strongly in the Fellner recording on ECM.  I do caution that some other folks find the Fellner interpretations much less compelling than I do.

I forgot to mention that my review of the Fellner can be found on the MusicWeb International website.  Just search for Fellner.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: marvinbrown on September 24, 2008, 02:39:22 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on September 23, 2008, 12:26:52 PM
Performances that are very spiritually uplifting, as if Bach is standing before us with outstretched arms waiting to envelop us in his enlightenment and security.  It's an emotional thing, and I feel it most strongly in the Fellner recording on ECM. 

  Ah yes I could use a surrogate father  0:).

  marvin
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on October 01, 2008, 11:35:40 AM
I noticed that Jill Crossland's name has not been mentioned on this thread, so I'll mention her now.  Her complete WTC is available on the Signum label and it's a glorious set of performances.  The colors she elicits are stunning, and her rhythms are exactly the way I like them.  I'm just amazed at how fresh the music sounds from Crossland.  From what I've read of other reviews, her performances are highly regarded.  Give it a try.  Both Books are available on the Naxos Music Library.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bunny on October 02, 2008, 06:37:59 AM
Don, thanks for the heads up!  This is one that's probably as affordable expensive as it is good.   :P
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on October 03, 2008, 08:04:33 AM
Quote from: Bunny on October 02, 2008, 06:37:59 AM
Don, thanks for the heads up!  This is one that's probably as affordable expensive as it is good.   :P

Yes, list price for both books is around $80, but you can get it from Amazon sellers for less than $60.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on October 03, 2008, 01:58:09 PM
Quote from: Bunny on October 02, 2008, 06:37:59 AM
Don, thanks for the heads up! 

Hope you love the set.  I forgot to mention that Crossland also recorded the Goldbergs in the late 1990's; it's on Warner Apex.  Be advised that her Goldbergs, although quite interesting, is well below the level of her WTC.  She was very young back then, and her fantastic way with color in the WTC doesn't come across in her Goldbergs.  Also, she tends to be a "note blaster" in the earlier recording.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bunny on October 04, 2008, 07:34:49 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on October 03, 2008, 01:58:09 PM
Hope you love the set.  I forgot to mention that Crossland also recorded the Goldbergs in the late 1990's; it's on Warner Apex.  Be advised that her Goldbergs, although quite interesting, is well below the level of her WTC.  She was very young back then, and her fantastic way with color in the WTC doesn't come across in her Goldbergs.  Also, she tends to be a "note blaster" in the earlier recording.

Good to know!  The Goldbergs are more tempting because of the pricepoint.  The WTC is very expensive, especially as the 2 Book set isn't out in the USA yet.  It would be fiscally worthwhile to wait for that to be available, or to try and source it elsewhere. 

Any idea whether Till Felner has recorded the second book yet?  I'd really love to see that one.

Btw, the Crossland WTC is also available at Classics Online for ~$20.00 per volume at 320kbps MP3 as well as at Amazon at 256kbps MP3 for $17.00.  Neither is tempting enough for that price considering the compression.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on October 04, 2008, 08:32:59 AM
Quote from: Bunny on October 04, 2008, 07:34:49 AM
Good to know!  The Goldbergs are more tempting because of the pricepoint.  The WTC is very expensive, especially as the 2 Book set isn't out in the USA yet.  It would be fiscally worthwhile to wait for that to be available, or to try and source it elsewhere. 

Any idea whether Till Felner has recorded the second book yet?  I'd really love to see that one.


Crossland's Book 2 is available in the USA.  As for Felner's Book 2, no recording yet.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bunny on October 04, 2008, 10:46:41 AM
I was not referring Book 2, but the combined 2 book set (WTC I & WTC II) which is now available in UK.

Drat!  I really liked Fellner's book 1!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on January 16, 2009, 09:36:03 AM
Angela Hewitt's second recording (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67741/4) of the 48 will be released this year. I found this while listening to her first, so I have not listened to the samples yet.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 16, 2009, 11:21:49 AM
Quote from: opus67 on January 16, 2009, 09:36:03 AM
Angela Hewitt's second recording (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67741/4) of the 48 will be released this year. I found this while listening to her first, so I have not listened to the samples yet.

This surprises me very much since Hewitt's first go at it was just about 10 years ago.  I assume she has re-thought her interpretations and now has some new ideas for us.  Should be interesting, and I hope the new one's better than the first (which was pretty good but not outstanding).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 16, 2009, 12:45:14 PM
QuoteBach, JS Well-tempered Clavier, Books 1 & 2 w/ Jill Crossland - Signum Records has just 'combined' this set into a 4-CD offering which I could not find offered in the USA (Amazon upped its price to nearly $42 per 2-CD books!) - so, for the first time ordering overseas, I just entered a purchase on the Signum UK site for the 4-CD TOTAL set - I think w/ the exchange rate (and S/H) the price will be just under $40!  :)

Now, Don (a.k.a. Bulldog) peaked my interest in this set, so expect to really enjoy!  ;D

Just duplicating a recent post of mine above about Crossland's WTC - have listened to this set several times already - decided to 'sell off' my first Hewitt WTC - the new 4-CD 'combined' offering by Signum Records is hard to match for price or performance!  :)

(http://www.signumrecords.com/images/sigcd136.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 16, 2009, 12:53:21 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 16, 2009, 12:45:14 PM
Just duplicating a recent post of mine above about Crossland's WTC - have listened to this set several times already - decided to 'sell off' my first Hewitt WTC - the new 4-CD 'combined' offering by Signum Records is hard to match for price or performance!  :)

(http://www.signumrecords.com/images/sigcd136.jpg)

I still have my copies of Hewitt's WTC, but I also much prefer Crossland.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Josquin des Prez on January 16, 2009, 01:33:26 PM
Pah, forget Hewitt. What you need is Vladimir Feltsman.  ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Peregrine on January 16, 2009, 01:42:47 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 16, 2009, 01:33:26 PM
Pah, forget Hewitt. What you need is Vladimir Feltsman.  ;D

Yeah, good set that.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 16, 2009, 01:43:08 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 16, 2009, 01:33:26 PM
Pah, forget Hewitt. What you need is Vladimir Feltsman.  ;D

I hope it's better than Feltsman's odd and not satisfying Goldbergs with those horrible repeats.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Keemun on January 16, 2009, 02:26:19 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 16, 2009, 12:45:14 PM
Just duplicating a recent post of mine above about Crossland's WTC - have listened to this set several times already - decided to 'sell off' my first Hewitt WTC - the new 4-CD 'combined' offering by Signum Records is hard to match for price or performance!  :)

(http://www.signumrecords.com/images/sigcd136.jpg)

I just found this set on Amazon.com at a pre-order price of $41.98 with free shipping (to be released in U.S. on Jan 27, 2009). 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Josquin des Prez on January 16, 2009, 02:54:57 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 16, 2009, 01:43:08 PM
I hope it's better than Feltsman's odd and not satisfying Goldbergs with those horrible repeats.

I don't have his Goldbergs, but i can vouch for his Well Tempered Clavier, which is amazing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 16, 2009, 03:47:47 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 16, 2009, 02:54:57 PM
I don't have his Goldbergs, but i can vouch for his Well Tempered Clavier, which is amazing.

In the latest batch of offerings from MusicWeb for review, I requested Feltsman's WTC along with Sheppard's and Suzuki's Bk. 2.  Keeping my fingers crossed that I'm sent at least one of the three.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on January 16, 2009, 10:10:26 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 16, 2009, 03:47:47 PMSuzuki's Bk. 2. 

It's out, is it? There's always the need to supplement a piano version with a harpsichord one. (Wait, isn't that the other way 'round? ;D) I hope BIS brings out both books in a space-saving and money-saving box.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 17, 2009, 02:17:09 PM
Quote from: opus67 on January 16, 2009, 10:10:26 PM
It's out, is it? There's always the need to supplement a piano version with a harpsichord one. (Wait, isn't that the other way 'round? ;D) I hope BIS brings out both books in a space-saving and money-saving box.

Since I already have Suzuki's Bk. 1, that offering won't do me much good.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on February 03, 2009, 12:02:33 AM
FYI: Crossland's set is on offer for $20 at MDT.
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/Special%20Offers/SIGCD136.htm
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 03, 2009, 01:02:22 AM
Oh man, you guys haven't lived until you've heard Joyce Hatto's rendition!  ;D

I have several versions--Horszowski, Fischer, Gould, Feinberg, Kirkpatrick, Walcha, and snippets of S. Richter (need to buy the whole set one of these days). Here's a mini-review (FWIW)

On the whole, if forced to pick one set, I like Edwin Fischer's version the best. His interpretations are a bit romantic, as one would expect from the age (recorded in the 30s), but he seems to have a better intuitive feel for these pieces than anyone else I've heard. Everything seems to fall into place perfectly, and you (at least I) end up thinking, "THAT'S how it is meant to be played!" Purists and HIP fans will disagree, but I challenge them to listen to these recordings attentively and with an open mind for at least a couple of hours.

Gould's are hit and miss. Some are sublime; at his best, he can bring out the counterpoint and rhythmic swing of these pieces better than just about anyone, but at worst they are quite harsh, gritty, and perfunctory sounding, at least to my ears. Horszowski's are very nicely played, if a little dull (I believe he only recorded Book I).

Feinberg (I have the Classic Records set) is very interesting, and really very romantic--overly romantic in some cases for my tastes--even more so than Fischer's renditions on the whole. Given that these were recorded in the 1950s, this type of interpretation is really more than a bit anachronistic, as is the sound quality (not as good as most other 1950s recordings), which has its quirks, especially irregularities in volume (you may find yourself with your hand on the volume control more often than you'd like). Still, his tone is lovely and his feeling for the music is obviously very deep.

Kirkpatrick and Walcha (both on harpsichord or clavichord) are very nice sets and both very beautifully played with slightly slow tempos throughout (especially the Walcha). I think I'd favor the Walcha just a bit, if only for the great beauty of the recorded sound (I have a 5 LP set on EMI/Odeon)



Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on February 03, 2009, 02:41:15 AM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 03, 2009, 01:02:22 AM
On the whole, if forced to pick one set, I like Edwin Fischer's version the best. His interpretations are a bit romantic, as one would expect from the age (recorded in the 30s), but he seems to have a better intuitive feel for these pieces than anyone else I've heard. Everything seems to fall into place perfectly, and you (at least I) end up thinking, "THAT'S how it is meant to be played!" Purists and HIP fans will disagree, but I challenge them to listen to these recordings attentively and with an open mind for at least a couple of hours.

I spent quite a bit of time tracking down the Pearl issue of these recordings last year. I really need to revisit them. Thanks for reminding me.

Quote
Gould's are hit and miss. Some are sublime; at his best, he can bring out the counterpoint and rhythmic swing of these pieces better than just about anyone, but at worst they are quite harsh, gritty, and perfunctory sounding, at least to my ears.

I agree. As much as I love the rest of his Bach, this set was at least a partial disappointment to me. The joy found in so many of his other Bach recordings seems to be missing here. Strange considering how much he loved the fugue genre. 

Quote
Feinberg (I have the Classic Records set) is very interesting, and really very romantic--overly romantic in some cases for my tastes--even more so than Fischer's renditions on the whole. Given that these were recorded in the 1950s, this type of interpretation is really more than a bit anachronistic, as is the sound quality (not as good as most other 1950s recordings), which has its quirks, especially irregularities in volume (you may find yourself with your hand on the volume control more often than you'd like). Still, his tone is lovely and his feeling for the music is obviously very deep.

I find this set to be special, I have the Talents of Russia mastering (pictured below) and find the sound to be somewhat better than the Classic Records set, with clearer upper frequencies.

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Feinberg-K04-3%5BTalents%5D.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 03, 2009, 05:08:24 AM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 03, 2009, 01:02:22 AM
Oh man, you guys haven't lived until you've heard Joyce Hatto's rendition!  ;D


I have liked all the Hatto I have heard -- but I haven't heard the WTC -- do you know who played it?

Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 03, 2009, 01:02:22 AM
Gould's are hit and miss. Some are sublime; at his best, he can bring out the counterpoint and rhythmic swing of these pieces better than just about anyone, but at worst they are quite harsh, gritty, and perfunctory sounding, at least to my ears.



Which ones do you think are sublime?

I feel a bit disappointed by the Gould -- but there surely must be some gold in there. Please point me in the right direction!

My own favourites are Feinberg and Richter (try and hear his extraordinary B minor from Book 1). And Landowska.

I own the Walcha but I don't think I have ever listened to it. Your post may prompt me to so so!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on February 03, 2009, 06:17:16 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 03, 2009, 05:08:24 AM
I feel a bit disappointed by the Gould -- but there surely must be some gold in there. Please point me in the right direction!

I have my set uploaded to my computer at work. I find as background music it works well, since the ones that don't strike me are easily ignored and the better ones, I turn up the volume for. Still, I find it hard to listend to more than half a book at a time by anyone. 

Quote
My own favourites are Feinberg and Richter (try and hear his extraordinary B minor from Book 1). And Landowska.

Which Richter? The studio one on RCA? I listened to the live at Insbruck (Book One) performance last night and it sounds a bit more spontaneous than the studio one. I haven't compared side by side, but I think that Feinberg may be my favorite for these works.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 03, 2009, 08:10:03 AM
Quote from: George on February 03, 2009, 06:17:16 AM
I have my set uploaded to my computer at work. I find as background music it works well, since the ones that don't strike me are easily ignored and the better ones, I turn up the volume for. Still, I find it hard to listend to more than half a book at a time by anyone. 

Which Richter? The studio one on RCA? I listened to the live at Insbruck (Book One) performance last night and it sounds a bit more spontaneous than the studio one. I haven't compared side by side, but I think that Feinberg may be my favorite for these works.

That's a pretty damning indictment of Gould's  WTC!

I only know the Richter RCA studio. It's ages since I've given WTC any attention -- but I've had it at the back of my mind to check out the live performance.

My own feeling is that with these complete sets, you need to evaluate them on an individual prelude and fugue basis -- I once did it for the B minor of Book one and found -- well Richter and Fienberg were great but worlds apart. Richter from Mars, Feinberg from Venus ;) The others I listened to were Tureck (two versions) , Walcha, Fischer and Gould.

But it's a lot of work to do this for the whole shooting match -- one day, in my long summer holidays maybe.

I started a similar project once for Art of Fugue -- just working my way through recordings seeing what works and what fails. Very interesting thing to do, when you're in the mood. I did it for Savall and Goebels -- but then ran out of time.

I have had this DVD for years. So far it has given me zero pleasure -- but I think that's probably me, not it!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on February 03, 2009, 11:01:26 AM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 03, 2009, 01:02:22 AM
On the whole, if forced to pick one set, I like Edwin Fischer's version the best. His interpretations are a bit romantic, as one would expect from the age (recorded in the 30s), but he seems to have a better intuitive feel for these pieces than anyone else I've heard. Everything seems to fall into place perfectly, and you (at least I) end up thinking, "THAT'S how it is meant to be played!" Purists and HIP fans will disagree, but I challenge them to listen to these recordings attentively and with an open mind for at least a couple of hours.

I am a HIP fan but agree with you on Fischer - as far as piano versions are concerned, naturally... ;D

QuoteGould's are hit and miss. Some are sublime; at his best, he can bring out the counterpoint and rhythmic swing of these pieces better than just about anyone, but at worst they are quite harsh, gritty, and perfunctory sounding, at least to my ears.

My second favourite piano version (there are nothers, BTW)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 03, 2009, 05:56:43 PM
This 4-CD set I bought a few weeks ago has to be one of the best for WTC ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V4H79X10L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: ezodisy on February 04, 2009, 12:08:57 AM
Quote from: George on February 03, 2009, 06:17:16 AM
Which Richter? The studio one on RCA? I listened to the live at Insbruck (Book One)...

Or the live one from Moscow on Russian Revelation? I have that one, it is the earliest of his recordings (by a year or so). Don't think book 2 was ever released however (I would guess that it was performed).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: jwinter on February 04, 2009, 06:22:51 AM
The two I reach for most often, it seems, are Friedrich Gulda and Edward Aldwell.  Their choices of tempo always seem to work for me, and I like their clean style that makes all of the voices audible.  To my ear, they bring just the right amount of romanticism to these pieces, displaying emotional power without going over the edge into Richter-land.  I've also recently been checking out Tureck and Edwin Fischer -- excellent, though I still need to listen more to form a firm opinion.

Like many, though, I find I can't sit through more than an hour or so of the WTC at a time -- it makes my little brain hurt.  ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on February 04, 2009, 07:33:12 AM
Quote from: jwinter on February 04, 2009, 06:22:51 AM
Like many, though, I find I can't sit through more than an hour or so of the WTC at a time -- it makes my little brain hurt.  ;D

;D

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 05, 2009, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: jwinter on February 04, 2009, 06:22:51 AM
The two I reach for most often, it seems, are Friedrich Gulda and Edward Aldwell.  Their choices of tempo always seem to work for me, and I like their clean style that makes all of the voices audible.  To my ear, they bring just the right amount of romanticism to these pieces, displaying emotional power without going over the edge into Richter-land.  I've also recently been checking out Tureck and Edwin Fischer -- excellent, though I still need to listen more to form a firm opinion.

Like many, though, I find I can't sit through more than an hour or so of the WTC at a time -- it makes my little brain hurt.  ;D

I will probably give the Gulda's set a try.  Unfortunately, the Book 1 and Book 2 come in two different Philips DUO's.  It would have been nicer had they been available in a single set.  Do you have both Books 1 & 2?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on February 05, 2009, 09:42:35 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 05, 2009, 07:12:59 PM
I will probably give the Gulda's set a try.  Unfortunately, the Book 1 and Book 2 come in two different Philips DUO's.  It would have been nicer had they been available in a single set. 

Actually, they are (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/5358337).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: orbital on February 05, 2009, 10:19:54 PM
Quote from: jwinter on February 04, 2009, 06:22:51 AM
The two I reach for most often, it seems, are Friedrich Gulda and Edward Aldwell.  Their choices of tempo always seem to work for me, and I like their clean style that makes all of the voices audible.  To my ear, they bring just the right amount of romanticism to these pieces, displaying emotional power without going over the edge into Richter-land. 
Clean (I'd actually say sterile) yes, but I can't think of Gulda WTC associated with romanticism/emotional power at all  ;D
When I want to hear a sober, straight up version without all the fancy embellishments, I go for Nikolayeva.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 06, 2009, 05:36:08 PM
Quote from: opus67 on February 05, 2009, 09:42:35 PM
Actually, they are (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/5358337).

Did Gulda record WTC twice?  I am only aware of the Books 1 and 2 available on 2 Philips DUO's ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 06, 2009, 05:38:07 PM
Quote from: George on February 04, 2009, 07:33:12 AM
;D



I will be surprised if there is a better WTC recording out there than the one by Richter ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2009, 10:27:23 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 06, 2009, 05:38:07 PM
I will be surprised if there is a better WTC recording out there than the one by Richter ...

Which one -- RCA studio or live in Insbrook?

(Hehehe George, I beat you to it)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on February 06, 2009, 10:54:21 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 06, 2009, 05:36:08 PM
Did Gulda record WTC twice?  I am only aware of the Books 1 and 2 available on 2 Philips DUO's ...

Unlikely. (For Philips at least) The dates of recording of the two-fers is the same as that of complete set.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: haydnguy on February 07, 2009, 12:26:35 AM
Quote from: orbital on February 05, 2009, 10:19:54 PM
Clean (I'd actually say sterile) yes, but I can't think of Gulda WTC associated with romanticism/emotional power at all  ;D
When I want to hear a sober, straight up version without all the fancy embellishments, I go for Nikolayeva.

orbital, I have her AoF and enjoy it very much.I just checked on Amazon (u.s.) and there is only one available from a Marketplace seller of her WTC (both books) and it is in "used-very good" condition for $333.00!! :o  :-X    >:(
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 07, 2009, 10:33:54 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2009, 10:27:23 PM
Which one -- RCA studio or live in Insbrook?

(Hehehe George, I beat you to it)

This is the set I bought

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V4H79X10L._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 07, 2009, 05:17:09 PM
What a horrible cover. How does this recording compare to Richter's other WTCs?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 07, 2009, 05:30:56 PM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 07, 2009, 05:17:09 PM
What a horrible cover. How does this recording compare to Richter's other WTCs?

I have to defer this question to George, our Richtervangelist ...   ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on February 07, 2009, 06:27:10 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 07, 2009, 05:30:56 PM
I have to defer this question to George, our Richtervangelist ...   ;D

I haven't done a side by side, but the Insbruck live performance is certainly more extrovert and more spontaneous.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 08, 2009, 12:16:02 AM
Quote from: George on February 07, 2009, 06:27:10 PM
I haven't done a side by side, but the Innsbruck live performance is certainly more extrovert and more spontaneous.

Well, I just listened to the B minor prelude and fugue from Book 1 from Innsbruck and on the RCA studio disc.

I agree with George when he says that the live Innsbruck is more extrovert. But I'm not sure that it sounds more spontaneous.

Both performances are great examples of Richter's art -- a strong sense of the pulse of the music, amazing colouration, beautiful dynamic shading, tremendous expression of the music's structure.

Timings for the two are about the same -- the RCA is just a few seconds longer.

The sound is dryer and more natural on the live recording that in the studio, which suffers from being rather reverberant (I have noticed it has been remastered.)

The studio B minor is very intense, especially in the prelude.  You get the feeling of a man alone at the piano playing for himself. There are some great pauses -- rests perfectly timed to produce a very dramatic effect. The overall feeling of this performance is dark and tragic -- that special richtarian cosmic tragedy, if you know what I mean.

By comparison, the Innsbruck live performance seems slightly to push the music forward more, even though the timings are roughly the same . I don't get the same dark mood projected. It's not light and joyful; but it lacks that feeling of cosmic tragedy.

So it's 1-0 for RCA in this first match: Innsbruck scores points for sound and liveliness, but the studio takes the match for "depth"





Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on February 08, 2009, 02:05:06 AM
Thanks for your comparision, Mandryka.  :)

When I said the Insbruck was more spontaneous, I meant it was more spontaneous from one prelude to the next, showing a nice contrast between the different P&F in the set.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 08, 2009, 04:28:45 AM
What about his recordings on Russian labels? I seem to remember seeing a couple different sets when I was in Russia in 2007.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 08, 2009, 05:48:53 AM
I think I would be wise to allocate enough funds to buy another 100 CD's by Sviatoslav Richter, given the number of his recordings out there.  But is it wise to buy the 100% Russian-made CD's as there may be a quality issue here?  At least with Brilliant Classics, the remastering is done in the west.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 08, 2009, 07:59:10 PM
Some of those 100% Russian CDs have priceless performances, and while many of them are not up to western standards of the time, I'd not trade them for anything. Same goes for Michelangeli's live performances (Membran 10 CD sets), many of which I find far more engrossing than his studio recordings.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: ezodisy on February 08, 2009, 10:54:05 PM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 08, 2009, 04:28:45 AM
What about his recordings on Russian labels? I seem to remember seeing a couple different sets when I was in Russia in 2007.

Of the WTC? Well although the Trovar discography lists his Moscow performance of WTC Book 1 as being released solely on the enigmatic Russian Revelation label

Well-Tempered Clavier, book I
* (Moscow, 20 and 21 April 1969) on Revelation RV 20003 (CD)

there is in fact an apparent second release of it here on the Russian Venezia label:

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2557373

HMV Japan have some sort of special release of the RCA version too (what's an SHM CD?)

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2765072
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Drasko on February 09, 2009, 02:06:35 AM
Quote from: ezodisy on February 08, 2009, 10:54:05 PM
HMV Japan have some sort of special release of the RCA version too (what's an SHM CD?)

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2765072

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/music/essentials/shm-cd.html
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: dirkronk on February 09, 2009, 07:01:14 AM
Quote from: George on February 07, 2009, 06:27:10 PM
I haven't done a side by side, but the Insbruck live performance is certainly more extrovert and more spontaneous.

The studio version is typically referred to as the Salzburg/Vienna set by old line Richtermaniacs such as yours truly, and although it is now available on CD from RCA, it was originally released on Melodiya and licensees (EMI/Angel and later Musical Heritage Society in the LP era). I mention this mainly because I wouldn't want newer fans to be expecting the same quality sonics as, say, Richter's studio Appassionata sonata from late 1960 or the Brahms PC#2 w/ Leinsdorf/Chicago, which were done by RCA's recording crews.

OK, so much for technical stuff. I can't provide a blow-by-blow description of Salzburg/Vienna vs. Innsbruck completes (vs. Moscow Bk. 1, which I haven't yet compared to the other two) but I do own them all (the Salzburg on LP only, the others on CD) and will tell you that the Salzburg is the one I'd opt for if some sadist were to force me to choose only one Richter version. However, if asked to put together my "ideal" WTC, I might well go with Richter/Salzburg for book 1 and Feinberg for book 2. Reason: I'm not so concerned about authenticity of early keyboard versions, but my ears love the amazingly astute, evocative and utterly beautiful phrasing that both Richter and Feinberg offer. All just IMHO of course.
;D

Dirk
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on February 09, 2009, 07:07:39 AM
Thanks dirk!

Once I finish my Schubert Sonatas by Richter backwards traversal, I plan to compare the WTC Salzburg and Insbruck more closely. I just finallly ordered the full Salzburg set yesterday.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 09, 2009, 08:03:49 AM

Is the RCA set a studio recording, or does it come from concerts in Austria?

I'd be interested to know whether anyone has tried the newly remastered RCA -- is there a big improvement?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: dirkronk on February 09, 2009, 08:26:10 AM
Quote from: George on February 09, 2009, 07:07:39 AM
Thanks dirk!

Once I finish my Schubert Sonatas by Richter backwards traversal, I plan to compare the WTC Salzburg and Insbruck more closely. I just finallly ordered the full Salzburg set yesterday.

I'll be curious to get your reaction, George. I really should do an all-Richter WTC spinoff, so that I can speak more intelligently about the various full books (and of course the odds & ends found on various DGG and other releases, back in the day).

The last WTC comparison I did was an all-LP fest done years ago, with Richter/Salzburg easily topping Gould (who I felt was fascinating for about one LP side at a time, but whose metronomic presentation palled quickly thereafter--and thus I gave away my integral set to a friend who's a certified Gould maven) and Joao Carlos Martins (a very fine MOR version...not his later Tomato CD release but his early WTC, superbly recorded and released in the '60s or early '70s by BOTM Club records). At the time, these were the only complete WTCs I owned and it was only the Richter that could keep my attention engaged side after side, sometimes through the entire book.

Certainly I had to do some reassessment when I heard the Richter/Innsbruck and especially when I first heard Feinberg. My Innsbruck CDs are copies of the JVC/Japan set available several years back, and I do recall liking them a lot and remarking that many of the pieces did have that wonderful "live spark" so prevalent in Richter concerts. Still, the Salzburg remains my fave for the moment. However, after so many years, it may well be that I've simply imprinted on the Richter/Salzburg and that this has colored my preference--thus my curiosity about your opinion.

Cheers,

Dirk
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: dirkronk on February 09, 2009, 08:34:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 09, 2009, 08:03:49 AM
Is the RCA set a studio recording, or does it come from concerts in Austria?

Wish I could tell you, Mandryka, but as I mentioned, my copies are on LP and thus at home (I keep all my CDs at work). Otherwise I'd put one on and see if I could detect coughs or end-of-piece applause. The online Richter discography I checked usually (not always) indicates if a recording was done "live" but that indication isn't made for the Salzburg/Vienna WTC. Maybe someone else here can answer definitively.

I too am curious to know about the sound quality of the RCA transfer. My EMI and MHS transfers on LP sound very good--though hardly audiophile quality--for their time, so I would expect the sonics on the RCA to be at least quite listenable.

Cheers,

Dirk
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 09, 2009, 08:47:21 AM
What's with the Richter obsession?  Sure, his WTC recordings are among the best piano versions on record, but he's not alone at the top of the mountain.  Gould, Sheppard, Crossland, Fellner and a few others are just as compelling.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: ezodisy on February 09, 2009, 09:40:20 AM
Fellner?

He's okay, in his own way, but let's not mention him next to Richter. It would be like comparing Anouk Aimee to some woman in a McDonald's advert
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on February 09, 2009, 09:45:06 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 09, 2009, 08:03:49 AM
Is the RCA set a studio recording, or does it come from concerts in Austria?

I'd be interested to know whether anyone has tried the newly remastered RCA -- is there a big improvement?

RCA is a studio recording.

I can give you feedback in about a week and a half about the comparison of the remastered and unremastered Book one.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 09, 2009, 11:28:00 AM
Quote from: ezodisy on February 09, 2009, 09:40:20 AM
Fellner?

He's okay, in his own way, but let's not mention him next to Richter. It would be like comparing Anouk Aimee to some woman in a McDonald's advert

Concerning Bach's WTC, Fellner stands tall next to Richter. 

The main point is that Bach is the key artist here, not Richter nor any other performer.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: ezodisy on February 09, 2009, 11:48:46 AM
well I couldn't disagree more, and you know I am not mad about Richter. The Fellner performance is just too smooth and too mild. Richter isn't perfect but he at least breathes life into the music (and of course Bach gets all the credit for it). I would respect Fellner quite a lot and wouldn't be saying this were it not for trying to compare his recording to Richter's (I might say the same about Crossland but don't know that one...) (http://operawebclub.com/papageno/style_emoticons/default/good.gif)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 09, 2009, 12:47:30 PM
Quote from: ezodisy on February 09, 2009, 11:48:46 AM
well I couldn't disagree more, and you know I am not mad about Richter. The Fellner performance is just too smooth and too mild. Richter isn't perfect but he at least breathes life into the music (and of course Bach gets all the credit for it). I would respect Fellner quite a lot and wouldn't be saying this were it not for trying to compare his recording to Richter's (I might say the same about Crossland but don't know that one...) (http://operawebclub.com/papageno/style_emoticons/default/good.gif)

As I indicated earlier, my main reason for posting here today is simply to state that Bach trumps any performer of his music.  When I saw that this thread about Bach's WTC was turning into a Richter love-fest, I wanted to add my two cents worth that, and I'll be as diplomatic as possible, one Bach is worth a thousand Richters, or Turecks, or Goulds, etc. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: ezodisy on February 09, 2009, 01:56:03 PM
Agreed, Bach for ever.

(Feinberg love-fest starts at 14.30 tomorrow)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 09, 2009, 02:50:45 PM
Quote from: ezodisy on February 09, 2009, 01:56:03 PM
Agreed, Bach for ever.

(Feinberg love-fest starts at 14.30 tomorrow)

Rocky Mountain time?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on February 09, 2009, 02:54:33 PM
I think this idea of the composer's importance vs the performers importance would be interesting to discuss, so I started a thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10994.0.html
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 09, 2009, 04:25:25 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 09, 2009, 12:47:30 PM
As I indicated earlier, my main reason for posting here today is simply to state that Bach trumps any performer of his music.  When I saw that this thread about Bach's WTC was turning into a Richter love-fest, I wanted to add my two cents worth that, and I'll be as diplomatic as possible, one Bach is worth a thousand Richters, or Turecks, or Goulds, etc. 

I rather enjoyed the good read. Especially dirk's contributions (he's always a worthwhile read). Besides, diversions like these are usually only temporary. Then it's back to...whatever.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 09, 2009, 06:32:22 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 09, 2009, 12:47:30 PM
As I indicated earlier, my main reason for posting here today is simply to state that Bach trumps any performer of his music.  

IMO, not only does Bach trump any performer of his music, he trumps all other composers as well.  He is the greatest of all composers of all time, dead or alive.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 09, 2009, 08:41:05 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 09, 2009, 06:32:22 PM
IMO, not only does Bach trump any performer of his music, he trumps all other composers as well. 

Seconded.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 09, 2009, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: George on February 09, 2009, 09:45:06 AM
RCA is a studio recording.

I can give you feedback in about a week and a half about the comparison of the remastered and unremastered Book one.

:)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 09, 2009, 09:12:22 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 09, 2009, 08:47:21 AM
. . . at the top of the mountain [is] Gould . . .

People often say this -- but, as I've said before in this forum, I've never enjoyed that Gould set.

You obviously like it, Bulldog.

Please, point out some of the Preludes and Fugues in the set which really work sor you, so that I can give them a good relistening to.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 10, 2009, 08:18:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 09, 2009, 09:12:22 PM
People often say this -- but, as I've said before in this forum, I've never enjoyed that Gould set.

You obviously like it, Bulldog.

Please, point out some of the Preludes and Fugues in the set which really work sor you, so that I can give them a good relistening to.

Time is limited, so I'll just mention Gould's Bk. 1 performances I find exceptional:

Prelude in C major
Fugue in D major
Prelude & Fugue in D minor
Prelude & Fugue in E flat major
Prelude in E flat minor
Fugue in D sharp minor
Prelude in E major
Prelude & Fugue in F sharp major
Fugue in G minor
Prelude in G sharp minor
Fugue in A major
Prelude in B flat major
Prelude & Fugue in B flat minor

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 10, 2009, 08:33:18 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 10, 2009, 08:18:22 AM
Time is limited, so I'll just mention Gould's Bk. 1 performances I find exceptional:

Prelude in C major
Fugue in D major
Prelude & Fugue in D minor
Prelude & Fugue in E flat major
Prelude in E flat minor
Fugue in D sharp minor
Prelude in E major
Prelude & Fugue in F sharp major
Fugue in G minor
Prelude in G sharp minor
Fugue in A major
Prelude in B flat major
Prelude & Fugue in B flat minor



Thanks -- I'll relisten.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 10, 2009, 05:26:38 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 10, 2009, 08:18:22 AM
Time is limited, so I'll just mention Gould's Bk. 1 performances I find exceptional:

Prelude in C major
Fugue in D major
Prelude & Fugue in D minor
Prelude & Fugue in E flat major
Prelude in E flat minor
Fugue in D sharp minor
Prelude in E major
Prelude & Fugue in F sharp major
Fugue in G minor
Prelude in G sharp minor
Fugue in A major
Prelude in B flat major
Prelude & Fugue in B flat minor



Are these selections also available in that 80-CD set released by Sony?  I bought that set last year at a great price.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 10, 2009, 08:57:20 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 10, 2009, 05:26:38 PM
Are these selections also available in that 80-CD set released by Sony?  I bought that set last year at a great price.

Woulldn't it be marvelously ironic if they weren't? ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 11, 2009, 05:36:42 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 10, 2009, 08:57:20 PM
Woulldn't it be marvelously ironic if they weren't? ;D

In the good old LP days, I almost never bought any Columbia and for that matter any American labels.  I would reluctantly buy some Angel LP's since EMI were not widely available then.  The surface noise of American-pressing classical LP's was just atrocious.  As such, the few thousand LP's I now have are almost exclusively European and why not.  After all, I found few American ensembles particularly appealing.  When it came to baroque music, most European ensembles were just much better and still are.   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 09:32:59 AM
Has anyone ever heard the WTC by Jill Crossland?

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/SIGCD136.jpg)



Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on February 13, 2009, 09:37:50 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 09:32:59 AM
Has anyone ever heard the WTC by Jill Crossland?

Don (Bulldog) has, and recently, so too has Dave (SonicMan). Some of the posts in previous pages of this thread should contain their views on the set.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 01:44:16 PM
Quote from: opus67 on February 13, 2009, 09:37:50 AM
Don (Bulldog) has, and recently, so too has Dave (SonicMan). Some of the posts in previous pages of this thread should contain their views on the set.

Don responded to my inquiry in a different thread.  I will get the WTC set by Jill Crossland.  Many of the smaller English labels are such bargains at MDT lately due to the recent strength of the dollar.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 23, 2009, 08:58:13 PM
HAve any of you guys heard Daniel Ben Pienaar play WTC?

It sounds great to me -- expressive and virtuosic.

You can hear it for free here:

http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/dbp-wtc1a/
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 24, 2009, 08:23:33 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 09:32:59 AM
Has anyone ever heard the WTC by Jill Crossland?

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/SIGCD136.jpg)

Oops - comin' in late to this post & issues may have been answered, but Don & I posted back on pg. 5 of this thread, and also in the 'listening thread' - this set has received superlative reviews in Fanfare, MusicWeb, & the Signum website, the latter quotes; and the price for me was hard to beat packaged as a 4-CD offering!  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 24, 2009, 04:43:51 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 23, 2009, 08:58:13 PM
HAve any of you guys heard Daniel Ben Pienaar play WTC?

It sounds great to me -- expressive and virtuosic.

You can hear it for free here:

http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/dbp-wtc1a/

It sounds quite good and very expressive.  It does not look like the CD's are available on either Amazon or MDT though ....
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2009, 07:02:47 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 24, 2009, 04:43:51 PM
It sounds quite good and very expressive.  It does not look like the CD's are available on either Amazon or MDT though ....

While your at it check the cello suites by Vito Paternoster on magnatunes -- again expressive and interesting.

I think magnatunes is always sole supplier oftheir artists.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 25, 2009, 11:59:15 AM
Just ordered the Gould.

Uh...he only recorded one cycle, right?  ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 25, 2009, 12:12:08 PM
Quote from: Mn Dave on February 25, 2009, 11:59:15 AM
Just ordered the Gould.

Uh...he only recorded one cycle, right?  ;D

That's what we've been told. :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 25, 2009, 12:19:53 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 25, 2009, 12:12:08 PM
That's what we've been told. :D

Phew. I hate being told I ordered the "wrong" one.  ::)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 27, 2009, 06:17:29 AM
Well, for piano I now (after much culling over the years) own Jill Crossland in both Books (excellent value box package at present) & Book I w/ Craig Sheppard (his book II is out & will likely be a purchase).  :)

Now, I still have no 'harpsichord' version - I know many have already been discussed on this thread which goes back to '07 - I've been tracking these (and others) and seem to have Wilson & Dantone on my 'wish list' - the Wilson discs are too expensive & Dantone gets a mixed rating on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=bach+well+tempered+clavier+dantone&x=0&y=0), but the Marketplace prices are acceptable.

So, how about an 'update' for the WTC on harpsichord - are the same contenders 'in the ring'?  Any 'new ones' or 're-issues' out there in the last 2 years?  And, finally whatever is listed, are the sets available in the US or in Europe at decent prices?  Thanks.  :)


(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/SIGCD136.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411OtHm1gqL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 27, 2009, 08:21:43 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 27, 2009, 06:17:29 AM
Now, I still have no 'harpsichord' version - I know many have already been discussed on this thread which goes back to '07 - I've been tracking these (and others) and seem to have Wilson & Dantone on my 'wish list' - the Wilson discs are too expensive & Dantone gets a mixed rating on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=bach+well+tempered+clavier+dantone&x=0&y=0), but the Marketplace prices are acceptable.

So, how about an 'update' for the WTC on harpsichord - are the same contenders 'in the ring'?  Any 'new ones' or 're-issues' out there in the last 2 years?  And, finally whatever is listed, are the sets available in the US or in Europe at decent prices?  Thanks.  :)

These are the newer WTC's I'm aware of:

Suzuki - Bk. 2/BIS
Watchorn - Bk. 1/Musica Omnia
Egarr - Bk. 1/Harmonia Mundi

All three are available; Watchorn is the least expensive ($16).  Suzuki and Watchorn would be my picks of the three, but neither reaches the Wilson.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 27, 2009, 08:35:21 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 27, 2009, 08:21:43 AM
These are the newer WTC's I'm aware of:

Suzuki - Bk. 2/BIS
Watchorn - Bk. 1/Musica Omnia
Egarr - Bk. 1/Harmonia Mundi

All three are available; Watchorn is the least expensive ($16).  Suzuki and Watchorn would be my picks of the three, but neither reaches the Wilson.

... and this (beautiful) one by Katherine Roberts Perl on Magnatune (Bk. 2):

http://www.magnatune.com/artists/albums/kperl-clavier1/
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 27, 2009, 10:50:51 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 27, 2009, 08:35:21 AM
... and this (beautiful) one by Katherine Roberts Perl on Magnatune (Bk. 2):

http://www.magnatune.com/artists/albums/kperl-clavier1/

Thanks - a good supply of samples.  Certainly sounds lovely and first-rate on initial listening.

I'm modifying this just to add that I also checked out the samples from Perl's French Suites - also very enticing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 27, 2009, 11:48:42 AM
You are welcome, Don.

She's a great American harpsichordist.

Fortunatelly these recordings will be largely available, although her previous CDs are impossible to find  :-\.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 27, 2009, 01:25:30 PM
Don & Antoine - thanks for the additional comments and recommendation; Glenn Wilson still is at the top of my 'want list' in these works on harpsichord, but 'Arkiv Music' wants basically $30 per book!  Oh well, think that I'll wait a little longer - BTW, I know these names have come up before - Kenneth Gilbert on harpsichord & Ralph Kirkpatrick on clavichord (seems to be just one of the books for each?) - thanks all!  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/317KDF8TK8L._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 27, 2009, 02:37:17 PM
BTW, Sonic, my own favorite version is played by Jaroslav Tůma (Arta Records) on clavichord.

I recommended it in other thread, but actually is almost unknown, although the Bk. 1 was previously edited on Supraphon.

And here some examples from You Tube:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=T8MTthGkfl8

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=3OTJU0mwyQg

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=3M0ZqetN7A8

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=1oOyXgNL6HU

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 27, 2009, 03:20:15 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 27, 2009, 02:37:17 PM
BTW, Sonic, my own favorite version is played by Jaroslav Tůma (Arta Records) on clavichord.

I recommended it in other thread, but actually is almost unknown, although the Bk. 1 was previously edited on Supraphon.

And here some examples from You Tube:


Antoine - thanks for the additional information, and I do remember the performer above - on my laptop now, so can't really appreciate the performances unless I plug in some earphones; however, I was just checking Amazon - seems to be a lot of interesting offerings by this artist on the clavichord but most are OOP and being offered at escalated prices - any sources that you may know worth pursuing @ a decent price?  Dave
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 27, 2009, 04:01:03 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 27, 2009, 01:25:30 PM
Don & Antoine - thanks for the additional comments and recommendation; Glenn Wilson still is at the top of my 'want list' in these works on harpsichord, but 'Arkiv Music' wants basically $30 per book!  Oh well, think that I'll wait a little longer - BTW, I know these names have come up before - Kenneth Gilbert on harpsichord & Ralph Kirkpatrick on clavichord (seems to be just one of the books for each?) - thanks all!  :D


Both Kirkpatrick Bks. are for sale on ArkivMusic.  The Wilson price might seem high, but music making this good is certainly worth it.  Of course, that's easy for me to say since I've got them already.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 27, 2009, 04:07:42 PM
The compressed formats are rather unfair with some subtle sonorities. But the four discs recorded by Tůma have excellent SQ.

AFAIK, Dave, the best options to buy these recordings are two:

jpc:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann%20Sebastian%20Bach%3A%20Das%20Wohltemperierte%20Klavier%201%202/hnum/2061729

Arta Records:

http://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=f10165en&site=en

I bought my own set in the latter, together with other four or five discs because they were very cheap. My only problem was to learn how much is one Czech crown. They charged the price in dollars to my credit card, using a secure server.


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 01, 2009, 12:42:22 PM
I sometimes wonder if Glenn Gould's performance of WTC really deserves all the accolate.  The bottomline is whether Glenn Gould performed WTC as Bach had intended ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on March 01, 2009, 01:12:11 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 01, 2009, 12:42:22 PM
I sometimes wonder if Glenn Gould's performance of WTC really deserves all the accolate.  The bottomline is whether Glenn Gould performed WTC as Bach had intended ...

No pianist performs/can perform the WTC the way Bach intended....

So I have no problem when a pianist puts his own mark on it, not even to the extent Gould does. Why not go all the way? As long as it's brilliantly done. :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 01, 2009, 01:25:35 PM
Quote from: Que on March 01, 2009, 01:12:11 PM
No pianist performs/can perform the WTC the way Bach intended....

So I have no problem when a pianist puts his own mark on it, not even to the extent Gould does. Why not go all the way? As long as it's brilliantly done. :)

Q

WTC was originally written for harpsichord, as piano did not even exist during Bach lifetime ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on March 01, 2009, 01:26:23 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 01, 2009, 01:25:35 PM
WTC was originally written for harpsichord, as piano did not even exist during Bach lifetime ...

My point exactly! :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 01, 2009, 01:31:42 PM
Quote from: Que on March 01, 2009, 01:26:23 PM
My point exactly! :)

Q

So which version of WTC performed on harpsichord is considered top of its class?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on March 01, 2009, 01:48:32 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 01, 2009, 01:31:42 PM
So which version of WTC performed on harpsichord is considered top of its class?

The answers to that question are already to be found in this very thread, like HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,768.msg16055.html#msg16055) or HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,768.msg230134.html#msg230134).

And on lots of WTC discussions on the Bach harpsichord thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.0.html) and HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.msg133655.html#msg133655).

And Mn Dave had the same question the other day, discussed on the Bach chamber music thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1081.msg280121.html#msg280121).

Have fun reading up on all this. ;D

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 01, 2009, 03:35:33 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 01, 2009, 12:42:22 PM
I sometimes wonder if Glenn Gould's performance of WTC really deserves all the accolate.  The bottomline is whether Glenn Gould performed WTC as Bach had intended ...

When you have the answer to that one, you'll be one very famous man.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on March 02, 2009, 06:10:24 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 01, 2009, 03:35:33 PM
When you have the answer to that one, you'll be one very famous man.

If you have to be fair Don, what do you think the answer is.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dr. Dread on March 02, 2009, 06:13:48 AM
I'm sure he'd wonder what all the humming's about.  ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on March 02, 2009, 06:15:49 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on March 02, 2009, 06:13:48 AM
I'm sure he'd wonder what all the humming's about.  ;D

;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 02, 2009, 09:46:19 AM
Quote from: premont on March 02, 2009, 06:10:24 AM
If you have to be fair Don, what do you think the answer is.

Just speculating, but I'd say no.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 03, 2009, 05:21:39 PM
I think Glenn Gould performed Bach keyboard works while he was humming was comparable to Herbert von Karajan conducting with his eyes closed.  They were both eccentric ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: sTisTi on March 06, 2009, 10:10:16 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 03, 2009, 05:21:39 PM
I think Glenn Gould performed Bach keyboard works while he was humming was comparable to Herbert von Karajan conducting with his eyes closed.  They were both eccentric ...
Yes, but at least you don't hear Karajan's closed eyes on his recordings ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 06, 2009, 05:45:41 PM
Quote from: sTisTi on March 06, 2009, 10:10:16 AM
Yes, but at least you don't hear Karajan's closed eyes on his recordings ;D

But you will see it when you watch the DVD and I have quite a few of these concerts on DVD ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: nut-job on March 15, 2009, 07:36:12 PM

I just read that Angela Hewitt has recorded the Well Tempered Clavier again!  I have her original set and I like it, but I thought one virtue of it is that it is rather neutral, it lets Bach's polyphony speak for itself.  What's the point of doing it again?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Renfield on March 15, 2009, 07:39:45 PM
A looser, slightly less neutral approach, from what I've gathered.

I'm certainly awaiting it eagerly, as I found her original one just a little bit too uptight. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: nut-job on March 15, 2009, 07:57:07 PM
Quote from: Renfield on March 15, 2009, 07:39:45 PM
A looser, slightly less neutral approach, from what I've gathered.

I'm certainly awaiting it eagerly, as I found her original one just a little bit too uptight. :)

Get Schiff then.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Renfield on March 15, 2009, 10:06:49 PM
Quote from: nut-job on March 15, 2009, 07:57:07 PM
Get Schiff then.  ;)

:D

I've actually contemplated Schiff; my WTC collection (or Bach collection, for that matter) is quite limited*.


*That is, I have Edwin Fischer, Tureck on DG, Gould, Hewitt and Richter, IIRC.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: springrite on March 15, 2009, 10:20:51 PM
Quote from: Renfield on March 15, 2009, 10:06:49 PM
:D



*That is, I have Edwin Fischer, Tureck on DG, Gould, Hewitt and Richter, IIRC.

Any time you use IIRC to speak of your collection of recordings of a particular piece, you have more than a limited collection.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Lethevich on March 15, 2009, 10:36:20 PM
She explains it here (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67741/4).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 16, 2009, 02:50:03 AM
Quote from: Renfield on March 15, 2009, 10:06:49 PM
:D

I've actually contemplated Schiff; my WTC collection (or Bach collection, for that matter) is quite limited*.


*That is, I have Edwin Fischer, Tureck on DG, Gould, Hewitt and Richter, IIRC.

How do you like the Tureck?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 16, 2009, 06:11:22 AM
Quote from: nut-job on March 15, 2009, 07:36:12 PM
I just read that Angela Hewitt has recorded the Well Tempered Clavier again!  I have her original set and I like it, but I thought one virtue of it is that it is rather neutral, it lets Bach's polyphony speak for itself.  What's the point of doing it again?


When performers go back and record a work a second time, they feel they have something new to say.  Hantai and Schiff felt this way about the Goldberg Variations, and their second efforts certainly bear this out. 

Hewitt's not my idea of essential Bach, so I doubt I'll be acquiring her new set.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on March 16, 2009, 06:18:28 AM
Quote from: Renfield on March 15, 2009, 10:06:49 PM
I've actually contemplated Schiff; my WTC collection (or Bach collection, for that matter) is quite limited*.

This (http://www.amazon.de/S%C3%A4mtliche-Grossen-Werke-Klavier-Solo/dp/B001DTA8QS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1237212957&sr=8-1) might be for you. Or maybe not. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: nut-job on March 16, 2009, 06:38:28 AM
Quote from: opus67 on March 16, 2009, 06:18:28 AM
This (http://www.amazon.de/S%C3%A4mtliche-Grossen-Werke-Klavier-Solo/dp/B001DTA8QS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1237212957&sr=8-1) might be for you. Or maybe not. :)

I have that, but in the previous Decca incarnation, excellent.  But following that link was a godsend, because I stumbled on this (http://www.amazon.de/Brendel-spielt-Schubert-Alfred/dp/B001BNQJDC/ref=pd_bxgy_m_img_b).

It seems to be available in Germany only.   ???
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on March 16, 2009, 06:53:03 AM
Quote from: nut-job on March 16, 2009, 06:38:28 AM
But following that link was a godsend, because I stumbled on this (http://www.amazon.de/Brendel-spielt-Schubert-Alfred/dp/B001BNQJDC/ref=pd_bxgy_m_img_b).

It seems to be available in Germany only.   ???

[Off-topic] Those Eloquence boxes do look appealing. I don't mind them being available only in Germany, but it's the shipping cost that really bums me out. (Maybe, once I choose enough of these boxes, I'll order them together. ;D) The availability of the Brendel/Schubert is not new to me, but the Haskil/Mozart was. I hear that she's wonderful in that repertoire. [/off-topic]
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Renfield on March 16, 2009, 08:06:38 AM
Quote from: opus67 on March 16, 2009, 06:18:28 AM
This (http://www.amazon.de/S%C3%A4mtliche-Grossen-Werke-Klavier-Solo/dp/B001DTA8QS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1237212957&sr=8-1) might be for you. Or maybe not. :)

:o

Many thanks! And that thing's cheaper than the WTC alone, this side of the English Channel.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: nut-job on March 16, 2009, 08:42:23 AM
Quote from: opus67 on March 16, 2009, 06:53:03 AM
[Off-topic] Those Eloquence boxes do look appealing. I don't mind them being available only in Germany, but it's the shipping cost that really bums me out. (Maybe, once I choose enough of these boxes, I'll order them together. ;D) The availability of the Brendel/Schubert is not new to me, but the Haskil/Mozart was. I hear that she's wonderful in that repertoire. [/off-topic]

Well, 19 Euros seems like a bargain (after the VAT is removed) but they want 14 Euro to dispatch it to the states.  That supplied the willpower to resist it.  Hard to understand why shipping from Germany to the US is so much more expensive an inconvenient than from the UK.   The one time I did order stuff from Germany it was similarly expensive, took ages, and looked like it had been thrown out of the plane without a parachute when it finally arrived.  Even shipping from Australia to the US is tons cheaper and faster.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 16, 2009, 09:21:04 AM
Quote from: nut-job on March 16, 2009, 08:42:23 AM
Well, 19 Euros seems like a bargain (after the VAT is removed) but they want 14 Euro to dispatch it to the state.  That supplied the willpower to resist it. 


Even with that funky, Van Morrison-esque cover?  ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Renfield on March 17, 2009, 01:52:56 AM
Quote from: George on March 16, 2009, 02:50:03 AM
How do you like the Tureck?

Whoops, I missed this.

Well, Tureck. Tureck's WTC is one of those recordings I tremendously appreciate, but somehow do not love (yet, perhaps).

So far, my WTC-affections have been held almost exclusively by Edwin Fischer, with some digressions into modern territory courtesy of Hewitt, dips into the Richter, and occasional sessions of Gould. But with Schiff on the way, I might as well revisit them all again! :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: nut-job on March 17, 2009, 07:13:12 AM
Quote from: Renfield on March 17, 2009, 01:52:56 AM
Whoops, I missed this.

Well, Tureck. Tureck's WTC is one of those recordings I tremendously appreciate, but somehow do not love (yet, perhaps).

So far, my WTC-affections have been held almost exclusively by Edwin Fischer, with some digressions into modern territory courtesy of Hewitt, dips into the Richter, and occasional sessions of Gould. But with Schiff on the way, I might as well revisit them all again! :D

In the Schiff set the partitas are particularly fascinating.  Don't restrict yourself to the preludes and fugues.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Renfield on March 17, 2009, 06:11:15 PM
Quote from: nut-job on March 17, 2009, 07:13:12 AM
In the Schiff set the partitas are particularly fascinating.  Don't restrict yourself to the preludes and fugues.


I am planning to make a point of going through the whole set. On most occasions, I simply dip into Bach's keyboard works (mostly the WTC and the Goldbergs), but this provides an opportunity to go the proverbial extra mile, I think. :) Incidentally, thanks are in order to yourself, as well, for the initial Schiff recommendation that I was anyway planning to follow up at some point, when opus67 alerted me to the offer.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 17, 2009, 07:28:11 PM
I just do not understand why the Schiff set is ONLY available in Germany?
>:(
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: nut-job on March 17, 2009, 08:16:48 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 17, 2009, 07:28:11 PM
I just do not understand why the Schiff set is ONLY available in Germany?
>:(

It happens.  A similar set is available internationally, but for a lot more money.

The only thing I don't like from that set is the Goldberg Variations.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on May 23, 2009, 11:59:42 AM
Pieter-Jan Belder/Harpsichord/Brilliant Classics

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/93892.jpg)

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/CD/93892.htm

Has anyone heard it yet?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2009, 12:09:16 PM
Quote from: opus67 on May 23, 2009, 11:59:42 AM
Pieter-Jan Belder/Harpsichord/Brilliant Classics

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/93892.jpg)

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/CD/93892.htm

Has anyone heard it yet?

No...it is not yet released in UK. 

Listening to the Blandine Verlet set instead.  :)

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Verlet-B01%5BAstree%5D.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2009, 12:18:27 PM
To be followed by a disc from Moroney's harmonia mundi set.

Todd McComb of medieval.org fame has the following praise for Moroney's WTC:

"Although there are several good recordings of WTC (whereas I claim
that, for instance, Moroney's is the only good recording of AOF), and
although I did not think that Moroney's recording stood out from these
on first hearing, after a few years' acquaintance, I also find his WTC
to be the richest and most convincing.  However, I am unsure as to
whether someone struggling to enjoy these pieces on harpsichord will
enjoy the Moroney recording as much as some others -- part of what makes
his recording so convincing over the long-term is that it is so
idiomatic for the harpsichord, even to the level of phrasing.  It's
quite a revelation, actually.

That said, Moroney's WTC recording is easily my favorite Bach
recording -- the one I get the most out of, time after time. "

(http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/8692/72864449.jpg)


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 12:26:36 PM
Quote from: traverso on May 23, 2009, 12:09:16 PM
No...it is not yet released in UK. 

Listening to the Blandine Verlet set instead.  :)

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Verlet-B01%5BAstree%5D.jpg)



Didn't Belder have some earlier WTC discs that were incorporated into that mammoth 155-CD Bach Collection set released by Brilliant two years ago?  I bought that set ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2009, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 12:26:36 PM
 

Didn't Belder have some earlier WTC discs that were incorporated into that mammoth 155-CD Bach Collection set released by Brilliant two years ago?  I bought that set ...

Leon Berben was the player of that recording.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on May 23, 2009, 12:58:39 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 12:26:36 PM
 

Didn't Belder have some earlier WTC discs that were incorporated into that mammoth 155-CD Bach Collection set released by Brilliant two years ago?  I bought that set ...

No, the WTC Book I & II in the Brilliant "complete" Bach box is performed by Leon Berben. His is the most sloppy recording of the WTC I ever have heard. Always, but especially in the works with many accidentals there are abundant lots of wrong notes, completely spoiling the music. To be avoided.

Belder have recorded the WTC I & II in the mid 1990es for some small Dutch firm, whose name I do not recall. Book II is OOP. I own Book I, and regret to say, that I do not intend to write home about it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on May 23, 2009, 01:01:39 PM
Quote from: opus67 on May 23, 2009, 11:59:42 AM
Pieter-Jan Belder/Harpsichord/Brilliant Classics

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/93892.jpg)

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/CD/93892.htm

Has anyone heard it yet?

Ooh, his second recording of that work? Hopefully better, than his first.
Or is it a new recording at all?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2009, 01:04:34 PM
Quote from: premont on May 23, 2009, 12:58:39 PM
No, the WTC Book I & II in the Brilliant "complete" Bach box is performed by Leon Berben. His is the most sloppy recording of the WTC I ever have heard. Always, but especially in the works with many accidentals there are abundant lots of wrong notes, completely spoiling the music. To be avoided.

Belder have recorded the WTC I & II in the mid 1990es for some small Dutch firm, whose name I do not recall. Book II is OOP. I own Book I, and regret to say, that I do not intend to write home about it.

It appears, then, that Berben recorded his WTC as sight-readings.  Brilliant idea. >:D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on May 23, 2009, 01:09:56 PM
Quote from: traverso on May 23, 2009, 01:04:34 PM
It appears, then, that Berben recorded his WTC as sight-readings.  Brilliant idea. >:D

No, I do not think so. I think he did, what he was able to, but that he did not master the job.
But I do not understand, why it was published.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2009, 01:19:19 PM
Quote from: premont on May 23, 2009, 01:09:56 PM
But I do not understand, why it was puplished.

To show that the collection was originally compiled by Bach for pedagogical purposes?  >:D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:23:02 PM
Quote from: traverso on May 23, 2009, 12:57:32 PM
Leon Berben was the player of that recording.

Belder was on a good number of discs in that mega box ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2009, 01:26:45 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:23:02 PM
Belder was on a good number of discs in that mega box ...

So?  Berben should have his name remembered for making what is likely the sloppiest WTC on record.... :o
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:28:20 PM
I will add that Belder's upcoming WTC set on my shopping list ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2009, 01:30:49 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:28:20 PM
I will add that Belder's upcoming WTC set on my shopping list ...

I will take a pass.  To me he is better as a recorder player.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:32:44 PM
Quote from: traverso on May 23, 2009, 01:30:49 PM
I will take a pass.  To me he is better as a recorder player.

You mean Belder does not specialize in harpsichord? 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2009, 01:36:35 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:32:44 PM
 

You mean Belder does not specialize in harpsichord? 

No he doesn't.  His earliest recordings for BC are of music for recorders.

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/00/920700.jpg)



Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:39:11 PM
Quote from: traverso on May 23, 2009, 01:36:35 PM
No he doesn't.  His earliest recordings for BC are of music for recorders.

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/00/920700.jpg)





So Belder is Jack of all trades, master of none?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2009, 01:40:38 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:39:11 PM
So Belder is Jack of all trades, master of none?

As I said I prefer him as a recorder player... But your mileage may vary.   :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:42:28 PM
Quote from: traverso on May 23, 2009, 01:40:38 PM
As I said I prefer him as a recorder player...

I will take a pass as well.  I want to listen to performance by a specialist.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2009, 01:47:16 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:42:28 PM
I will take a pass as well.  I want to listen to performance by a specialist.

Well our premont specialises in Bach recordings on historical keyboards, so you may find his advice re: Belder valuable.  :)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:51:46 PM
Quote from: traverso on May 23, 2009, 01:47:16 PM
Well our premont specialises in Bach recordings on historical keyboards, so you may find his advice re: Belder valuable.  :)



It appears he shares my sentiment for once.  I do think a musician who is a "Jack of all trades, master of none" will bother some people.  I will stick with Bob van Asperen ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on May 23, 2009, 01:52:56 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:42:28 PM
 

I will take a pass as well.  I want to listen to performance by a specialist.

Tsss. Sorry, but that is truly unfair to Belder. I admit that he failed to convince me with his Scarlatti or his Bach, but he sounded like a very good harpsichordist in both. And his Soler rocks: it is superb.
He graduated at the Hague Royal Conservatory under Bob van Asperen! ::)

Q

Edit: I meant Bach, not Couperin.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2009, 01:56:07 PM
Quote from: Que on May 23, 2009, 01:52:56 PM
Tsss. Sorry, but that is truly unfair to Belder. I admit that he failed to convince me with his Scarlatti or his Couperin, but he sounded like a very good harpsichordist in both. And his Soler rocks: it is superb.

Q

Perhaps coopmv would be better off spending his Belder money on some Soler....
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:57:52 PM
Quote from: traverso on May 23, 2009, 01:56:07 PM
Perhaps coopmv would be better off spending his Belder money on some Soler....

Refresh my memory, is Soler the so called Spanish JS Bach?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2009, 02:01:21 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:57:52 PM
Refresh my memory, is Soler the so called Spanish JS Bach?

I have never heard that before; do you have a source?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 02:09:50 PM
Quote from: traverso on May 23, 2009, 02:01:21 PM
I have never heard that before; do you have a source?

I think I saw the reference of Antonio Soler as the Spanish Bach somewhere on the web.  Johann Helmich Roman is often referred to as the Swedish Handel and I have a good number of his recordings, which are quite difficult to find.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on May 23, 2009, 02:10:13 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 01:57:52 PM
Refresh my memory, is Soler the so called Spanish JS Bach?

Wrong period, Soler is more like an early Classical (or transitional Baroque/Classical) variety of Domenico Scarlatti.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 02:12:29 PM
Quote from: Que on May 23, 2009, 02:10:13 PM
Wrong period, Soler is more like an early Classical (or transitional Baroque/Classical) variety of Domenico Scarlatti.

Q

The Baroque era ended with the death of Handel in 1759 ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Soler
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on May 23, 2009, 02:16:34 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 02:12:29 PM
The Baroque era ended with the death of Handel in 1759 ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Soler

So? Soler lived to 1783. Quote from "your" wiki: "Antonio Francisco Javier José Soler Ramos, usually known as Padre Antonio Soler, (December 3, 1729 (baptized) – December 20, 1783) was a Spanish composer whose works span the late Baroque and early Classical music eras..

And apart from the numerology, and more importantly: it sounds transitional.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 02:34:10 PM
Quote from: Que on May 23, 2009, 02:16:34 PM
So? Soler lived to 1783. Quote from "your" wiki: "Antonio Francisco Javier José Soler Ramos, usually known as Padre Antonio Soler, (December 3, 1729 (baptized) – December 20, 1783) was a Spanish composer whose works span the late Baroque and early Classical music eras..

And apart from the numerology, and more importantly: it sounds transitional.

Q

You have to check with William Boyce to see if he objects to being called a baroque composer ...    ;D  ;D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Boyce
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 23, 2009, 03:06:51 PM
Quote from: Que on May 23, 2009, 01:52:56 PM
Tsss. Sorry, but that is truly unfair to Belder. I admit that he failed to convince me with his Scarlatti or his Bach, but he sounded like a very good harpsichordist in both. And his Soler rocks: it is superb.
He graduated at the Hague Royal Conservatory under Bob van Asperen! ::)

Q

Edit: I meant Bach, not Couperin.

I totally agree with Que.

Pieter Jan Belder is a true harsichordist and many times a great harpsichordist, for instance in Soler.

I like his Bach recordings too. For example, his Italian Concerto and his Goldbergs are excellent.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 03:13:50 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 23, 2009, 03:06:51 PM
I totally agree with Que.

Pieter Jan Belder is a true harsichordist and many times a great harpsichordist, for instance in Soler.

I like his Bach recordings too. For example, his Italian Concerto and his Goldbergs are excellent.



We are dealing with cultural issue here in that we have been taught to believe if a musician plays more than one instrument, he cannot be a specialist in either ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 23, 2009, 03:31:48 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 03:13:50 PM
 

We are dealing with cultural issue here in that we have been taught to believe if a musician plays more than one instrument, he cannot be a specialist in either ...

IMO, Coop, the issue is that we just believe in specialists and professionals. Therefore, "amateur" and "dilettante", for example, are pejorative words.

But what reason in the world forbids to have skills in two musical instruments?

Obviously, the case of Pieter-Jan Belder is different because he has veritable academic credentials in both instruments.

:)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on May 23, 2009, 03:37:01 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 03:13:50 PM
We are dealing with cultural issue here in that we have been taught to believe if a musician plays more than one instrument, he cannot be a specialist in either ...

Where did you get that idea?  I never heard of it, and it makes no sense at all.

How about conductors who play one or more instruments?  Or composers who play an instrument *and* conduct?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on May 23, 2009, 04:15:15 PM
Quote from: premont on May 23, 2009, 12:58:39 PM
[....]
Belder have recorded the WTC I & II in the mid 1990es for some small Dutch firm, whose name I do not recall. Book II is OOP. I own Book I, and regret to say, that I do not intend to write home about it.

Must have been part of the Erasmus catalogue. Owner was Wijnand van Hooff. All the Erasmus CD's did get a WH labelnumber.
Unfortunately this budget-label didn't survive. It supported mainly young and talented Dutch musicians. Not all the recordings were that good, I think, but in a way Erasmus paved the way for Brilliant Classics.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 04:18:02 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 23, 2009, 04:15:15 PM
Must have been part of the Erasmus catalogue. Owner was Wijnand van Hooff. All the Erasmus CD's did get a WH labelnumber.
Unfortunately this budget-label didn't survive. It supported mainly young and talented Dutch musicians. Not all the recordings were that good, I think, but in a way Erasmus paved the way for Brilliant Classics.

Is Brilliant Classics Dutch?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on May 23, 2009, 04:26:30 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 04:18:02 PM
Is Brilliant Classics Dutch?

I always thought so. ;D
Their CD's are made by Joan Records, a company in Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 23, 2009, 04:28:48 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 04:18:02 PM
 
Is Brilliant Classics Dutch?

Stuart - of course! And, I think that Harry owns the company!  ;) ;D  Dave
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 04:40:42 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 23, 2009, 04:26:30 PM
I always thought so. ;D
Their CD's are made by Joan Records, a company in Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands.

At least I am getting genuine 100% Dutch products when I buy Brilliant.  Unlike this company Prima Luna that bills its products as Dutch when they are all made in China ...

http://www.primaluna-usa.com/reviews.htm
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 04:42:13 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 23, 2009, 04:28:48 PM
Stuart - of course! And, I think that Harry owns the company!  ;) ;D  Dave

We should be honored to rub virtual shoulders with Harry ...   ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on May 24, 2009, 01:22:48 AM
It appears that this is Belder's second go at it. JPC says "Label: Brilliant, DDD, 2008".

Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2009, 04:40:42 PM
At least I am getting genuine 100% Dutch products when I buy Brilliant.

Not when they have licensed recordings from, say, a German company and burnt them onto a Taiwanese-made CD. ::)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 24, 2009, 01:30:22 AM
Quote from: opus67 on May 24, 2009, 01:22:48 AM

Not when they have licensed recordings from, say, a German company and burnt them onto a Taiwanese-made CD. ::)

Do Brilliant Classics burn or press their CD's?  The best blanks for burning for me are the Maxell ones for music, and the ones for sale in EU at least are made in Hungary.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on May 24, 2009, 01:38:02 AM
Quote from: traverso on May 24, 2009, 01:30:22 AM
Do Brilliant Classics burn or press their CD's?  The best blanks for burning for me are the Maxell ones for music, and the ones for sale in EU at least are made in Hungary.

Okay, okay: pressed them onto Taiwanese-made CD.

Happy? ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 24, 2009, 01:51:21 AM
Quote from: opus67 on May 24, 2009, 01:38:02 AM
Okay, okay: pressed them onto Taiwanese-made CD.

At least I know I am not getting CD-R's from BC.   But are the CD's indeed Taiwanese-made?   

Quote
Happy? ;D

Not exactly.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on May 24, 2009, 01:56:15 AM
Quote from: traverso on May 24, 2009, 01:51:21 AM
At least I know I am not getting CD-R's from BC.   But are the CD's indeed Taiwanese-made?  

I don't know. Was just trying to pull coopmv's leg. ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on May 24, 2009, 03:33:50 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 23, 2009, 04:15:15 PM
Must have been part of the Erasmus catalogue.

Yes, this one:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/SESSIONID/22d46a7725f6c4527cdde565d1763a41/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Woltemperiertes-Klavier/hnum/4409564
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 04:47:10 AM
Quote from: opus67 on May 24, 2009, 01:22:48 AM
It appears that this is Belder's second go at it. JPC says "Label: Brilliant, DDD, 2008".

Not when they have licensed recordings from, say, a German company and burnt them onto a Taiwanese-made CD. ::)

If the company that is doing the burning is Dutch, it is still Dutch product.  The CD is just the raw material.  Taiwan also makes higher quality products than China anyway.    ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 04:51:25 AM
Quote from: traverso on May 24, 2009, 01:30:22 AM
Do Brilliant Classics burn or press their CD's?  The best blanks for burning for me are the Maxell ones for music, and the ones for sale in EU at least are made in Hungary.

Maxell may still be Japanese-owned.  It used to be a division of Hitachi, the conglomerate.  I heard that TDK sold off its media products, which of course include CD/R, CD/W and DVD, etc to concentrate on high-margin products.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on May 24, 2009, 08:45:43 AM
Quote from: Que on May 23, 2009, 01:52:56 PM
Sorry, but that is truly unfair to Belder. I admit that he failed to convince me with his Scarlatti or his Bach, but he sounded like a very good harpsichordist in both.

Well, Belder has improved considerably since his Erasmus years, and I do not think I shall get tired of his honest and well-considered no-nonsense style, deprived of any superficial effects. This is certainly true of his Bach. Scarlatti sometimes seems to ask for superficial effects, but I think he can do without them.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 09:20:58 AM
Quote from: premont on May 24, 2009, 08:45:43 AM
Well, Belder has improved considerably since his Erasmus years, and I do not think I shall get tired of his honest and well-considered no-nonsense style, deprived of any superficial effects. This is certainly true of his Bach. Scarlatti sometimes seems to ask for superficial effects, but I think he can do without them.

I thought a few discs from that mammoth 155-CD Complete Bach Works set released by BC where he played the harpsichord, the performance was quite good ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on May 24, 2009, 10:30:17 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 24, 2009, 04:47:10 AM
Taiwan also makes higher quality products than China anyway.    ;D

:)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 25, 2009, 04:46:57 AM
The WTC by the late Christiane Jaccottet on harpsichord is excellent.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on June 09, 2009, 11:32:06 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411S8AY4YCL._SS500_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VvriP1QwL._SS500_.jpg)

In general, Levin prefers faster than average tempi.  This is not really out of line though, as, if CPE Bach is to be trusted in his testimonies, JS actually was one fast player among his contemporaries.  An assortment of instruments were used in this recording, including an original Baroque organ in Wassenaar, NL.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: jwinter on June 09, 2009, 12:57:26 PM
Just last week I picked up the WTC by Vladimir Feltsman, still haven't broken the shrink-wrap.  Any thoughts on his set?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: dirkronk on June 09, 2009, 03:12:37 PM
Quote from: jwinter on June 09, 2009, 12:57:26 PM
Just last week I picked up the WTC by Vladimir Feltsman, still haven't broken the shrink-wrap.  Any thoughts on his set?

On the strong urging of a former poster to this and similar boards, I bought Book 1 by Feltsman several years back. I have Feltsman doing a couple of concerts of other composers and so was already favorably disposed toward his playing, but the WTC is especially impressive when done well. I listened to it twice, found it good to very good, perhaps a shade higher than that in some individual pieces, but at the end of the day decided not to bother tracking down Book 2. I wish I could be specific for you, but while my overall impression was good, I didn't find it quite distinctive enough to make me swoon. If it helps to know what standards I judge by, I still prefer my personal faves: Richter (esp. in Book 1) and Samuil Feinberg (esp. in Book 2) on piano get the most play, on rare occasion some Gould or Martins (first recording), E. Fischer for historic piano perspective, and when I listen to harpsichord (it isn't frequent, I confess) it's to Jaccottet or Moroney.

I'd be interested to know YOUR impressions once you get a chance to listen.

Cheers,

Dirk
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: dirkronk on June 10, 2009, 08:48:23 AM
While writing the response above, a thought occurred to me. The WTC is a major work but not one that all pianists tackle...at least in recorded form. Of the pianists who HAVEN'T released their take, who would you most like to do so?

The name that popped into my head was Sergei Babayan.

I may think of others, as well...but who would YOU like to hear?

Dirk
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on June 10, 2009, 08:56:07 AM
Quote from: dirkronk on June 10, 2009, 08:48:23 AM
While writing the response above, a thought occurred to me. The WTC is a major work but not one that all pianists tackle...at least in recorded form. Of the pianists who HAVEN'T released their take, who would you most like to do so?

The name that popped into my head was Sergei Babayan.

I may think of others, as well...but who would YOU like to hear?

Dirk

On harpsichord I'd love to hear David Cates record the WTC.  Cates, on Music & Arts, has the most compelling Bach French Suites in the catalogs.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on June 10, 2009, 01:17:29 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on June 10, 2009, 08:56:07 AM
On harpsichord I'd love to hear David Cates record the WTC.  Cates, on Music & Arts, has the most compelling Bach French Suites in the catalogs.

I'd be interested to hear Alfred Brendel.  He hasn't recorded much Bach, but I do have one disc of Bach pieces from him that I found rewarding to listen to.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: admiralackbar74 on July 07, 2009, 03:21:47 PM
I'm reviving this thread because I'm in the market for a complete (i.e. both books) recording of the Well-Tempered Clavier on piano. I don't mind a fair amount of expressiveness in this music; I want a pianistic take on the WTC. Suggestions?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Joe_Campbell on July 07, 2009, 05:08:55 PM
Well, you can listen to samples of both Angela Hewitt cycles on www.hyperion-records.co.uk. I just ordered the 2008 version. :)
After quite a bit of comparative listening between the two (though only through samples), I'm under the impression that Hewitt was a little bit more rhythmically flexible on the recent recording. I also noted a bit more distinctiveness in her voicing (i.e. larger dynamic separation). However, I don't think you could go wrong with either, and the earlier set has the added bonus of being about $8 cheaper!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Josquin des Prez on July 07, 2009, 05:11:53 PM
Quote from: jwinter on June 09, 2009, 12:57:26 PM
Just last week I picked up the WTC by Vladimir Feltsman, still haven't broken the shrink-wrap.  Any thoughts on his set?

It's my favored on piano (among modern pianists anyway), which means everybody here hates it. If you like it i recommend his recording of the harpsichord concertos (on piano), which is equally amazing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on July 07, 2009, 05:31:54 PM
Quote from: admiralackbar74 on July 07, 2009, 03:21:47 PM
I'm reviving this thread because I'm in the market for a complete (i.e. both books) recording of the Well-Tempered Clavier on piano. I don't mind a fair amount of expressiveness in this music; I want a pianistic take on the WTC. Suggestions?

My two favorites on the piano are Richter (RCA) [or the rare Live at Insbruck] OR Samuel Feinberg. Richter has better sound, but the Feinberg is something very special. I think you can sample it over at Russian DVD.com. The best transfers of these Feinberg performances are on the "Russian Compact Disc" label. This set has the "Talents of Russia" logo on the front.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on July 07, 2009, 05:41:26 PM
Quote from: admiralackbar74 on July 07, 2009, 03:21:47 PM
I'm reviving this thread because I'm in the market for a complete (i.e. both books) recording of the Well-Tempered Clavier on piano. I don't mind a fair amount of expressiveness in this music; I want a pianistic take on the WTC. Suggestions?

Assuming you want both books in one package, I have three recommendations that fit your requirements:

Jill Crossland/Signum
Evelyne Crochet/Music and Arts of America
Rosalyn Tureck/DG

If admirable sound quality is a requirement, take Tureck off the list.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on July 07, 2009, 05:43:36 PM
Quote from: George on July 07, 2009, 05:31:54 PM
My two favorites on the piano are Richter (RCA) [or the rare Live at Insbruck] OR Samuel Feinberg. Richter has better sound, but the Feinberg is something very special. I think you can sample it over at Russian DVD.com. The best transfers of these Feinberg performances are on the "Russian Compact Disc" label. This set has the "Talents of Russia" logo on the front.

Although I find both Richter and Feinberg exceptional, my loyalties remain with Rosalyn Tureck.  The sound quality on all three leave much to be desired.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: admiralackbar74 on July 07, 2009, 06:07:31 PM
I listened to the Tureck on DG a few years ago. (Is there more than one?) The sound quality is quite poor. As a piano student, I found Tureck worth listening to, particularly in the pieces I was working on, but I'd like to have something with better sound quality for the collection, if possible.

I remember enjoying Hewitt's first set when I was listening a few years back. Maybe I'll purchase the re-release now that it's packaged together (and at a reasonable price).

Why does her new set have such a horrendous cover? What on earth is she wearing!?

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571177410.png)

Any thoughts on Schiff?

And I thought I heard that Perahia is going to record this. When might that be released?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on July 07, 2009, 06:15:17 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on July 07, 2009, 05:43:36 PM
Although I find both Richter and Feinberg exceptional, my loyalties remain with Rosalyn Tureck.  The sound quality on all three leave much to be desired.

Yes, I need to get to know that Tureck set in the coming months. I have it downloaded to my computer at work.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bhodges on July 07, 2009, 06:18:43 PM
Quote from: admiralackbar74 on July 07, 2009, 06:07:31 PM
Why does her new set have such a horrendous cover? What on earth is she wearing!?

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571177410.png)

Man, that is really below Hyperion's standards (and I'm a Hewitt fan, too).  A shame, since IMHO a good cover would encourage people to explore her take on the material.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: admiralackbar74 on July 07, 2009, 06:23:03 PM
The cover to the first set in its re-released form is actually quite appealing.

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571142913.png)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Joe_Campbell on July 07, 2009, 06:24:29 PM
Quote from: bhodges on July 07, 2009, 06:18:43 PM
Man, that is really below Hyperion's standards (and I'm a Hewitt fan, too).  A shame, since IMHO a good cover would encourage people to explore her take on the material.

--Bruce
I hope you just mean the cover! I just shelled out about $50 for it!

And Ackbar, I like that cover much more, too!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bhodges on July 07, 2009, 06:37:44 PM
Quote from: admiralackbar74 on July 07, 2009, 06:23:03 PM
The cover to the first set in its re-released form is actually quite appealing.

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571142913.png)

MUCH better!  So why...?  Ah well, doesn't matter at this point...

Quote from: Joe_Campbell on July 07, 2009, 06:24:29 PM
I hope you just mean the cover! I just shelled out about $50 for it!

Oh yes, not to worry, I'm a big Hewitt fan.  (Although I haven't heard her WTC.)  Years ago my brother played me some of her Bach Toccatas CD, and it converted me...

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: admiralackbar74 on July 07, 2009, 06:40:10 PM
In order that my other inquiries don't get lost in the muddle...

Any thoughts on Schiff?

And I thought I heard that Perahia is going to record this. When might that be released?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on July 07, 2009, 06:47:25 PM
Quote from: George on July 07, 2009, 06:15:17 PM
Yes, I need to get to know that Tureck set in the coming months. I have it downloaded to my computer at work.

FWIW, I think that listening to Tureck's set at work will not do the trick.  Her interpretations require full concentration.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on July 07, 2009, 06:51:03 PM
Quote from: admiralackbar74 on July 07, 2009, 06:07:31 PM
Why does her new set have such a horrendous cover? What on earth is she wearing!?

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571177410.png)

Any thoughts on Schiff?

And I thought I heard that Perahia is going to record this. When might that be released?

Hewitt isn't much on beauty, so I wouldn't expect a lot from a cover that includes her face.

As for Schiff, I think well of his WTC.

Concerning Perahia, I don't find his Bach anything special.  His Mozart's a different story.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on July 07, 2009, 08:00:00 PM
I don't think you'll go wrong with any of the recommendations above.  FWIW I just got Schiff's and think it's terrific.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on July 07, 2009, 10:55:48 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 07, 2009, 08:00:00 PM
FWIW I just got Schiff's and think it's terrific.


Glad to hear it. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: The new erato on July 08, 2009, 12:12:40 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 07, 2009, 08:00:00 PM
I don't think you'll go wrong with any of the recommendations above.  FWIW I just got Schiff's and think it's terrific.

I bought the big Eloquence package of all Schiff's Bach from amazon.de for a pittance (about 23 Euro for 12 discs) and find it one of my best buys ever.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: admiralackbar74 on July 08, 2009, 06:59:37 AM
I wish that Schiff box set were available in the US. :-\ It's a shame that it's not.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on July 08, 2009, 07:06:46 AM
Quote from: admiralackbar74 on July 08, 2009, 06:59:37 AM
I wish that Schiff box set were available in the US. :-\ It's a shame that it's not.
Here is the Amazon link for it: http://www.amazon.com/Well-Tempered-Klavier-J-S-Bach/dp/B0018NUM56/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1247065513&sr=1-8 (http://www.amazon.com/Well-Tempered-Klavier-J-S-Bach/dp/B0018NUM56/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1247065513&sr=1-8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on July 08, 2009, 07:16:24 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 08, 2009, 07:06:46 AM
Here is the Amazon link for it: http://www.amazon.com/Well-Tempered-Klavier-J-S-Bach/dp/B0018NUM56/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1247065513&sr=1-8 (http://www.amazon.com/Well-Tempered-Klavier-J-S-Bach/dp/B0018NUM56/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1247065513&sr=1-8)

No, no, admiralackbar is referring to the too-much-lamented-about 12-CD set of Schiff's complete recordings of Bach's solo keyboard works (http://www.amazon.de/S%C3%A4mtliche-Grossen-Werke-Klavier-Solo/dp/B001DTA8QS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1247066068&sr=8-1) for Decca, which seems to be available only in Germany for a generally high shipping fee.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on July 08, 2009, 07:44:21 AM
Quote from: opus106 on July 08, 2009, 07:16:24 AM
No, no, admiralackbar is referring to the too-much-lamented-about 12-CD set of Schiff's complete recordings of Bach's solo keyboard works (http://www.amazon.de/S%C3%A4mtliche-Grossen-Werke-Klavier-Solo/dp/B001DTA8QS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1247066068&sr=8-1) for Decca, which seems to be available only in Germany for a generally high shipping fee.
Ah...duh!  Well, minus VAT, plus shipping, makes about $50 or less than $5/disc.  I usually order German goods from jpc.de and take advantage of low prices on other items bundled into one order with the flat rate shipping charge.  Eloquence discs that aren't available Stateside are good purchases, so are Apex discs, and then there are always the Universal products that aren't sold in the US, like most of Suwanai's recordings!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: admiralackbar74 on July 08, 2009, 09:18:08 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 08, 2009, 07:06:46 AM
Here is the Amazon link for it: http://www.amazon.com/Well-Tempered-Klavier-J-S-Bach/dp/B0018NUM56/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1247065513&sr=1-8 (http://www.amazon.com/Well-Tempered-Klavier-J-S-Bach/dp/B0018NUM56/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1247065513&sr=1-8)

It is good to know, however, that Schiff's WTC has been repackaged at a lower price point. Thanks for pointing that out.

Has anyone done a fairly thorough review of Hewitt's two boxes and compared them? I'd like to see it if it's out there.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on July 08, 2009, 10:21:45 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 08, 2009, 07:44:21 AM
Ah...duh!  Well, minus VAT, plus shipping, makes about $50 or less than $5/disc.  I usually order German goods from jpc.de and take advantage of low prices on other items bundled into one order with the flat rate shipping charge.  Eloquence discs that aren't available Stateside are good purchases, so are Apex discs, and then there are always the Universal products that aren't sold in the US, like most of Suwanai's recordings!

I got a pair of those German Eloquence sets with the AMSI logo, which stands for Ambient Surround Imaging, and they sounded awful.  Apparently it is a method of encoding a 2-channel CD so that it can be rendered as surround sound when passed through a surround decoder.   To my ears, on a normal 2-channel stereo it sounded artificial, with distorted tonal balance and weird imaging.   I'm selling off the two sets I got that way (Guarneri Beethoven and Brendel Schubert).  I'd advise avoiding any recording with the AMSI logo.

Unfortunately they're out of print and scarce, but I treasure this non-bastardized version:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51E7RGYNHDL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 06, 2009, 03:34:12 PM
Does anyone have both Tureck/DG (mono) and the later Tureck/BBC Legends?
Besides better sound is the BBC performance equal or better than the older DG set?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TVS934J2L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31KJTE91XKL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 06, 2009, 03:35:49 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 06, 2009, 03:34:12 PM
Does anyone have both Tureck/DG (mono) and the later Tureck/BBC Legends?
Besides better sound is the BBC performance equal or better than the older DG set?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TVS934J2L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31KJTE91XKL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I have the DG version.  It sounds quite good to me for its age ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 06, 2009, 03:55:09 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 06, 2009, 03:34:12 PM
Does anyone have both Tureck/DG (mono) and the later Tureck/BBC Legends?
Besides better sound is the BBC performance equal or better than the older DG set?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TVS934J2L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31KJTE91XKL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I wouldn't say that the BBC is better.  There's a warmth to the DG performance that I love, while the BBC is more incisive.  Much of this likely has to do with the sound; the BBC sound is very clinical. 

Being a big fan of Tureck's Bach, I can't imagine not having both sets.  However, since the DG sound can be difficult to abide, I would recommend the BBC for the one set group.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 06, 2009, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 06, 2009, 03:55:09 PM
I wouldn't say that the BBC is better.  There's a warmth to the DG performance that I love, while the BBC is more incisive.  Much of this likely has to do with the sound; the BBC sound is very clinical. 

Being a big fan of Tureck's Bach, I can't imagine not having both sets.  However, since the DG sound can be difficult to abide, I would recommend the BBC for the one set group.

I was afraid that would be the answer..............
the cost of the BBC version is about 2X that of DG set on Amazon USA  :o
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 06, 2009, 04:03:28 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 06, 2009, 04:00:30 PM
I was afraid that would be the answer..............
the cost of the BBC version is about 2X that of DG set on Amazon USA  :o

Check with George, who knows more about piano works than most on the forum.  I think he has this Tureck's DG set as well.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 06, 2009, 04:06:39 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 06, 2009, 04:00:30 PM
I was afraid that would be the answer..............
the cost of the BBC version is about 2X that of DG set on Amazon USA  :o

That would make the decision easy for me. The sound on the DG is perfectly fine IMO, unless your someone who focuses on sound ahead of performance.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 06, 2009, 04:07:44 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 06, 2009, 04:03:28 PM
Check with George, who knows more a lot about piano works than most on the forum.  I think he has this Tureck's DG set as well.

Fixed.  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 06, 2009, 04:12:11 PM
Quote from: George on December 06, 2009, 04:06:39 PM
That would make the decision easy for me. The sound on the DG is perfectly fine IMO, unless your someone who focuses on sound ahead of performance.

There you go, DA.  I cannot agree more.  I have at least 15 versions of these works, mostly on piano but a few on harpsichord.  I will not bother with the BBC version myself.  BTW, there are also some excellent harpsichord versions of these works as well ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Franco on December 06, 2009, 04:18:30 PM
I have the DG version and can't imagine what about the sound would be objectionable; in fact, I think the sound is very pleasant, intimate and not very reverberant, as if she were playing in a room as opposed to a concert hall.   I haven't heard the BBC recording so can't compare the two.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 06, 2009, 04:31:39 PM
George,

IIRC, you have multiple versions of WTC by Sviatoslav Richter?  I only have the RCA Gold Seal version ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 06, 2009, 05:41:20 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 06, 2009, 04:31:39 PM
George,

IIRC, you have multiple versions of WTC by Sviatoslav Richter?  I only have the RCA Gold Seal version ...

Yes, I have three, though for 1969 only Book One was released.

1. '70, '72, '73 - Salzburg Studio (RCA)
2. '73 - Live at Insbruck (Victor)
3. '69 - Live (Revelation)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 06, 2009, 05:53:44 PM
Thanks for the Tureck info gents.........I will buy the mono DG and save some green.

If I want good sound I have the Hewitt/Hyperion WTC   ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 06, 2009, 06:18:13 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 06, 2009, 05:53:44 PM
Thanks for the Tureck info gents.........I will buy the mono DG and save some green.

If I want good sound I have the Hewitt/Hyperion WTC   ;)

Angela Hewitt 2008 WTC and the much-harder-to-find WTC by Tatiana Nikolayeva are just about the last 2 versions of WTC I would like to get.  I have the earlier version of WTC by HW already and of course the WTC by the iconoclastic Glenn Gould via that 80-CD set, which I bought for $109 (shipping included) two years ago but is now listed for just under $500 ...    :o

BTW, the WTC by Edwin Fischer on Naxos Historical is quite nice as well.  I bought those 2 sets last spring ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WCF2lN6aL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 06, 2009, 06:24:53 PM
Quote from: George on December 06, 2009, 05:41:20 PM
Yes, I have three, though for 1969 only Book One was released.

1. '70, '72, '73 - Salzburg Studio (RCA)
2. '73 - Live at Insbruck (Victor)
3. '69 - Live (Revelation)

Is the RCA Gold Seal version (the set I have) a totally different set of recordings?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 06, 2009, 06:26:20 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 06, 2009, 06:24:53 PM
Is the RCA Gold Seal version (the set I have) a totally different set of recordings?

Nope, that's the RCA I listed first.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 06, 2009, 10:07:00 PM
Quote from: Franco on December 06, 2009, 04:18:30 PM
I have the DG version and can't imagine what about the sound would be objectionable; in fact, I think the sound is very pleasant, intimate and not very reverberant, as if she were playing in a room as opposed to a concert hall.   

Well, the Tureck/DG sound does have a lot of debris with recessed piano tone.  Still, this is the set that I most treasure.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 07, 2009, 07:07:41 AM
Looking for best WTC performed using clavichord............hopefully in good modern sound

What are my options?

Interesting article on Tureck's website has me searching one out........
http://tureckbach.com/documents/piano-harpsichord-or-clavichord/ (http://tureckbach.com/documents/piano-harpsichord-or-clavichord/)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 07, 2009, 08:20:20 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 07, 2009, 07:07:41 AM
Looking for best WTC performed using clavichord............hopefully in good modern sound

What are my options?

I'm familiar with the Kirkpatrick on DG and Tilney on Hyperion; note that Tilney uses a harpsichord for Bk. 2.

I find the Kirkpatrick the better performance.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 07, 2009, 10:35:32 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 07, 2009, 08:20:20 AM
I'm familiar with the Kirkpatrick on DG and Tilney on Hyperion; note that Tilney uses a harpsichord for Bk. 2.

I find the Kirkpatrick the better performance.

OK I placed order for Kirkpatrick/DG Originals Archiv Bk II since price was very cheap at Amazon USA
There is also a hard to find version by Tuma/Supraphon someone mentioned here............

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 07, 2009, 08:55:21 PM
Pollini's WTC I arrived at my door today.  Think I'll do some comparision with the five other sets I acquired within the past two or three years:  Watchorn, Egarr, Sheppard, Crossland and Rangell. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 08, 2009, 04:17:43 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 07, 2009, 08:55:21 PM
Pollini's WTC I arrived at my door today.  Think I'll do some comparision with the five other sets I acquired within the past two or three years:  Watchorn, Egarr, Sheppard, Crossland and Rangell.

Bulldog
What is your current favorite WTC if you could keep only one.......
Also do you like Gould for WTC?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 08, 2009, 04:32:26 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 08, 2009, 04:17:43 AM
Bulldog
What is your current favorite WTC if you could keep only one.......


In case you need a quick reply, I asked him that question and I believe his answer was Tureck, DG. 

EDIT: (see below)

Quote from: Bulldog on December 06, 2009, 10:07:00 PM
Well, the Tureck/DG sound does have a lot of debris with recessed piano tone.  Still, this is the set that I most treasure.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 08, 2009, 04:49:02 AM
Quote from: George on December 08, 2009, 04:32:26 AM
In case you need a quick reply, I asked him that question and I believe his answer was Tureck, DG. 

I have the Tureck/DG ordered........as well as the Crossland WTC which is very cheap now
Also recently received the Van Asperen/Virgin WTC for harpsicord

Mostly listen to Hewitt/Hyperion and Gould/Sony right now........but always looking for new contenders

I also have the Richter/RCA WTC but find it a bit puzzling, not yet fully in sync with it yet
I need to be in a certain mood to listen to Bach and go long periods with no Bach......
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 08, 2009, 04:58:40 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 08, 2009, 04:49:02 AM
I have the Tureck/DG ordered........as well as the Crossland WTC which is very cheap now
Also recently received the Van Asperen/Virgin WTC for harpsicord

Mostly listen to Hewitt/Hyperion and Gould/Sony right now........but always looking for new contenders

Try Feinberg.  8)

http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35887&genreid=

Click on "Preview" to sample, I think it plays the whole first CD.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 08, 2009, 05:40:37 AM
George

Very nice, great sound for late 1950s mono, Feinberg has my name written on it  ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 08, 2009, 06:17:01 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 08, 2009, 05:40:37 AM
George

Very nice, great sound for late 1950s mono, Feinberg has my name written on it  ;)

Great! Just so you know, that's the best mastering of those performances available.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 08, 2009, 08:47:19 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 08, 2009, 04:17:43 AM
Bulldog
What is your current favorite WTC if you could keep only one.......
Also do you like Gould for WTC?

As George said, it's the Tureck/DG for me.  Concerning Gould, I very much like his WTC as well as his other Bach recordings.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 08, 2009, 08:50:26 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 08, 2009, 08:47:19 AM
As George said, it's the Tureck/DG for me.  Concerning Gould, I very much like his WTC as well as his other Bach recordings.

He was my intro to Bach and I like his Bach so much that I don't own many other recordings of Bach's keyboard stuff. There's a playful, happy quality to his playing that I very much enjoy. Not to mention his clarity and precision. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 08, 2009, 08:55:46 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 08, 2009, 04:49:02 AM
I have the Tureck/DG ordered........as well as the Crossland WTC which is very cheap now
Also recently received the Van Asperen/Virgin WTC for harpsicord


That van Asperen set is excellent, although my preferrred harpsichord version comes from Glen Wilson.

That reminds me of an amusing story.  A few years ago, when I was buying discs like crazy and reviewing them, Wilson sent me an e-mail and wanted my address so he could send me a couple of his cds.  A few weeks later, my wife answers the phone and it's Wilson on the other line.  According to my wife, he said "Is this the home of Don Satz, the Bach expert?".  Wilson just wanted to make sure I had received the discs he sent.  When she got off the phone, my wife said that Wilson evidently wasn't aware that my true expertise was procrastination.  Boy, she sure has me pegged correctly.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 08, 2009, 08:57:41 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 08, 2009, 08:55:46 AM
When she got off the phone, my wife said that Wilson evidently wasn't aware that my true expertise was procrastination. 

;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 08, 2009, 08:57:48 AM
Quote from: George on December 08, 2009, 08:50:26 AM
He was my intro to Bach and I like his Bach so much that I don't own many other recordings of Bach's keyboard stuff. There's a playful, happy quality to his playing that I very much enjoy. Not to mention his clarity and precision.

What I most enjoy about Gould's Bach is that he gives equal weight to each musical line and does so perfectly.  Craig Sheppard is a Gould clone in that regard.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 08, 2009, 09:00:20 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 08, 2009, 08:57:48 AM
What I most enjoy about Gould's Bach is that he gives equal weight to each musical line and does so perfectly. 

Yes, he is staggeringly, almost inhumanly good at this aspect of his performances.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 08, 2009, 09:03:39 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 08, 2009, 08:55:46 AM
That reminds me of an amusing story.  A few years ago, when I was buying discs like crazy and reviewing them, Wilson sent me an e-mail and wanted my address so he could send me a couple of his cds.  A few weeks later, my wife answers the phone and it's Wilson on the other line.  According to my wife, he said "Is this the home of Don Satz, the Bach expert?".  Wilson just wanted to make sure I had received the discs he sent.  When she got off the phone, my wife said that Wilson evidently wasn't aware that my true expertise was procrastination.  Boy, she sure has me pegged correctly.

Bulldog do you review CDs for a publication/website other than this forum?
That is quite an "honor" to be called the Bach expert by a noted artist  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 08, 2009, 09:12:51 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 08, 2009, 09:03:39 AM
Bulldog do you review CDs for a publication/website other than this forum?
That is quite an "honor" to be called the Bach expert by a noted artist  :)

I was doing about one Bach review a day for Classical Net; then I started in with MusicWeb, expanding my musical boundaries.  I review very little these days (burnt out).

I don't know about the "honor" thing.  Wilson didn't even want to talk to me, just my wife.  I think he was irked that I hadn't informed him that I received the discs.  At that time I received all kinds of cds from various sources, so it wasn't easy to remember who to respond to.  Plus, I am a role-model for procrastinators.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: springrite on December 09, 2009, 04:17:46 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 08, 2009, 09:12:51 AM
I am a role-model for procrastinators.

...which reminds me, I've been meaning to respond on this thread since its inception...

BTW, the Hewitt first set is now available at BRO. I wonder if I should get it...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Leo K. on December 09, 2009, 11:01:09 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 27, 2009, 08:21:43 AM
These are the newer WTC's I'm aware of:

Suzuki - Bk. 2/BIS
Watchorn - Bk. 1/Musica Omnia
Egarr - Bk. 1/Harmonia Mundi

All three are available; Watchorn is the least expensive ($16).  Suzuki and Watchorn would be my picks of the three, but neither reaches the Wilson.

Wow...based on this post I bought the Watchorn on iTunes and WOW...great performance so far!!!

I have been searching for a modern harpischord WTC...

Thanks.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 09, 2009, 01:41:29 PM
Quote from: Leo K on December 09, 2009, 11:01:09 AM
Wow...based on this post I bought the Watchorn on iTunes and WOW...great performance so far!!!

I have been searching for a modern harpischord WTC...  Thanks.

Hello Leo - yes, Don & George are two of the top Bach keyboard experts here, so their advice is always worth reading (and in making purchasing decisions!) -  :D

But concerning Watchorn in the WTC Bk. 1 - you may be aware that he is playing a 'pedal harpsichord'?  If not checked out a brief discussion on the Old Musical Instrument thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.40.html) - I've ordered his WTC Bk. 2 from his website (listed previously) - was supposed to have been released by now!  I put in a pre-release order and exchanged a few e-mails w/ him recently - he says it is on the way soon!  May be something quite special!   :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on December 09, 2009, 06:00:12 PM
Quote from: Leo K on December 09, 2009, 11:01:09 AM

I have been searching for a modern harpischord WTC...


Besides the set by Glen Wilson (Teldec/ OOP) that Don/Bulldog mentioned I can reccommend Dantone. A repost from the "Bach on the harpsichord" thread:

Though mentioned once before, a short note of my impressions on these marvelous recordings of Bach WTC.
These were on my list a long time, but were no priority because I already had splendid WTC by Glen Wilson (Teldec - OOP). But I'm glad I eventually did pick them up.
Dantone is a player with an elegant and extrovert, at times even dashing, style: this WTC sparkles freely on a crisp and clear but lush sounding French harpsichord by Blanchet (1733). Dantone is generally swift(ish) and always keeps momentum - even in the slow passages there is a strong "pulse" and projection of the musical lines. Very strong bass lines. His freedom and extrovertness is combined with a firm grip on musical structure and a rock-solid rhythmic approach. And this combination makes it so special IMO. A strong and personal style that suits me. The recording is called "audiophile", and it lives up to this title.

I happily put this WTC next to Glen Wilson's more reflective approach.


(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/07/489807.jpg)  (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/49/493449.jpg)

             SAMPLES BOOK I (http://www.artsmusic.de/templates/tyReleasesD.php?id=315&label=blue%20line&topic=arts-releases-detail)                                      SAMPLES BOOK II (http://www.artsmusic.de/templates/tyReleasesD.php?id=316&label=blue%20line&topic=arts-releases-detail)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Leo K. on December 09, 2009, 09:04:49 PM
Thanks for those posts and links SonicMan and Que!!!

8)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on December 11, 2009, 10:53:44 AM
I haven't seen any mention here of Pollini's recently released recording with DG.  I'll admit being initially intrigued, could the ice-man bring unprecedented clarity to these works?  But a quick listen to some excerpts on the led to the opposite conclusion.  Any one here heard it?

I'm also curious about Ashkenazy's recording.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 11, 2009, 12:19:18 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 11, 2009, 10:53:44 AM
I haven't seen any mention here of Pollini's recently released recording with DG.  I'll admit being initially intrigued, could the ice-man bring unprecedented clarity to these works?  But a quick listen to some excerpts on the led to the opposite conclusion.  Any one here heard it?

I have the Pollini and have listened to it just a couple of times so far.  Although I don't care for his Prelude in C major which I find rather boring, my overall feeling about the set is positive.  I was interested in seeing how he would handle Bach's more introspective and bleak pieces; instead of the "cold" approach, I find him really digging into the emotional content.

I had heard that the sound on the set is overly resonant.  True, it is a little wet, but I haven't found it a problem.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on December 11, 2009, 01:04:36 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 11, 2009, 12:19:18 PM
I have the Pollini and have listened to it just a couple of times so far.  Although I don't care for his Prelude in C major which I find rather boring, my overall feeling about the set is positive.  I was interested in seeing how he would handle Bach's more introspective and bleak pieces; instead of the "cold" approach, I find him really digging into the emotional content.

I had heard that the sound on the set is overly resonant.  True, it is a little wet, but I haven't found it a problem.

Thanks for your interesting comments.  I was hoping to save some money, but now...  :(
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 11, 2009, 02:08:39 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 11, 2009, 01:04:36 PM
Thanks for your interesting comments.  I was hoping to save some money, but now...  :(

You can get it for under $20 - that's pretty good for a new 2-cd set from one of the most famous pianists.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on December 11, 2009, 02:38:35 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 11, 2009, 02:08:39 PM
You can get it for under $20 - that's pretty good for a new 2-cd set from one of the most famous pianists.

Yes, but I can get Ashkenazy Bk I and Bk II for $20 as well.  And I haven't even listened to my Turek DG yet!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 11, 2009, 02:46:59 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 11, 2009, 02:38:35 PM
Yes, but I can get Ashkenazy Bk I and Bk II for $20 as well.  And I haven't even listened to my Turek DG yet!

I don't know how big a fan you are of Bach's keyboard music.  For a Bach nut like myself, there is no "but".

FWIW, I wouldn't buy more WTC's until I listened to the ones already owned.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 11, 2009, 02:50:27 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 11, 2009, 02:46:59 PM
FWIW, I wouldn't buy more WTC's until I listened to the ones already owned.

Very good advice (though I have been know to behave otherwise.)  0:)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 04:44:07 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 16, 2009, 11:21:49 AM
This surprises me very much since Hewitt's first go at it was just about 10 years ago.  I assume she has re-thought her interpretations and now has some new ideas for us.  Should be interesting, and I hope the new one's better than the first (which was pretty good but not outstanding).

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67741/4 (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67741/4)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31eDzbM9y6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I have ordered the new Hewitt 48 as I hear a fresher more flexible mind at work........
I will be selling original Hewitt/Hyperion if CD set sounds as good as samples

In her notes from Hyperion website she talks about all the experience from several years of live WTC performances coupled with use of a Fazioli piano which she thinks better communicates Bach's music. Before the new recording she sat down and listened in detail to her original recording taking notes thinking the original now sounds too rigid and square. Her new approach also influenced by recording Couperin & Rameau whose more flowing free style have given her new insights and freedoms in playing baroque keyboard.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 12, 2009, 05:01:00 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 04:44:07 AM
I have ordered the new Hewitt 48 as I hear a fresher more flexible mind at work........
I will be selling original Hewitt/Hyperion if CD set sounds as good as samples

In her notes from Hyperion website she talks about all the experience from several years of live WTC performances coupled with use of a Fazioli piano which she thinks better communicates Bach's music. Before the new recording she sat down and listened in detail to her original recording taking notes thinking the original now sounds too rigid and square. Her new approach also influenced by recording Couperin & Rameau whose more flowing free style have given her new insights and freedoms in playing baroque keyboard.

With over 15 complete versions of the WTC (mainly performed on piano and a few on harpsichord), most of which have already been discussed in this thread, there are only two more versions I expect to get.  The recently released version by HW (I have just about all her baroque piano works) and the very-hard-to-find version by Tatiana Nikolayeva - considered the foremost interpreter of Bach keyboard works in the former Soviet Union.  While Pollini is an excellent pianist, my suspicion of his affinity (for lack of a better word I can think of at the moment) with Bach has been confirmed by what some of you have written about his WTC recording.  BTW, I have read mostly less than flattering reviews of the version by Daniel Barenboim, which I had the foresight to skip.  I found the Ashkenazy's version a pleasant surprise with pretty refreshing tempi and excellent execution.  Helene Grimaud's recent Bach recording has not turned out to be a stunning success IMO and I doubt she will even attempt to record WTC in the near future ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 05:05:43 AM
Tureck/DG
I listened to the early 1950s mono set many like here, the sound does have a noticeable amount of tape noise but it is not serious and you notice it less as you listen on. My initial run through was interesting, the slow style of Tureck seems to be deep and probing like someone studying the music in great detail, a smooth elegant style. This may allow certain details and nuances to emerge that can be rushed over, but also sacrifices some forward momentum and dramatic energy.........I will have to revisit these after sometime to more fully understand them

Coop
Who currently is your favorite WTC for piano & Harpsicord?

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 12, 2009, 05:21:14 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 05:05:43 AM
Tureck/DG
I listened to the early 1950s mono set many like here, the sound does have a noticeable amount of tape noise but it is not serious and you notice it less as you listen on. My initial run through was interesting, the slow style of Tureck seems to be cautious and probing like someone studying the music in great detail. This may allow certain details and nuances to emerge but also sacrifices some forward momentum and dramatic energy.........I will have to revisit these after sometime to more fully understand them

Coop
Who currently is your favorite WTC for piano & Harpsicord?

For piano, I really enjoy the monaural version by Tureck, there is that degree of warmth and intimacy that are lacking in most other versions.  Yeah, one may quibble with the SQ, which is actually not bad.  I have the Glenn Gould's version via that 80-CD box-set and I think the performance is excellent.  A much little-known set by Evelyne Crochet, a French-born American pianist who was a protégé to Rubinstein, which I picked up a few months ago, was a very pleasant surprise on first listen (though I need to find time for a follow-up).  For the next and younger generation, Angela Hewitt and Jill Crossland are quite good.

For harpsichord, the version by Christiane Jaccottet get my top vote.  The version by Bob van Asperen may get my second vote.  I only have the version by Leonhardt on LP and should really get it on CD.  Years ago when I first got into Leonhardt (on LP), I found his harpsichord playing a bit cold and dragging a bit.  It is probably time to re-assess my opinion.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41hBvunIVaL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 05:24:01 AM
Que has prompted me to try WTC Bk II by Dantone

Last night I pulled out the Landowska RCA Bach Box to remind myself of her playing style with her huge custom made harpsicord. The early 1950 sound is actually better than Tureck, a nice set to have since she has either taught or heavily influenced many of the best harpsicord players active today

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xLKENhViL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 12, 2009, 05:28:23 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 05:24:01 AM
Que has prompted me to try WTC Bk II by Dantone

Last night I pulled out the Landowska RCA Bach Box to remind myself of her playing style with her huge custom made harpsicord. The early 1950 sound is actually better than Tureck, a nice set to have since she has either taught or heavily influenced many of the best harpsicord players active today

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xLKENhViL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I think Dantone records for a small label - Onyx?  I have a few recordings by him and Viktoria Mullova on Bach.  I will be interested to check out the version by Ton Koopman.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 08:54:15 AM
Has anyone purchased the new Hantai/Mirare WTC I...........
If it is anything like his Goldbergs may have to try to ignore the high price of admission  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41H8R1A9FPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Short sound samples at Amazon sound great, as with Goldbergs uses harpsicord
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 12, 2009, 09:17:44 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 08:54:15 AM
Has anyone purchased the new Hantai/Mirare WTC I...........
If it is anything like his Goldbergs may have to try to ignore the high price of admission  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41H8R1A9FPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Short sound samples at Amazon sound great, as with Goldbergs uses harpsicord

I do not have any recordings by Hantai performing solo, though I have a number of Bach recordings where he played in some ensemble.  I still don't know him as a soloist ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 09:31:46 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 12, 2009, 09:17:44 AM
I do not have any recordings by Hantai performing solo, though I have a number of Bach recordings where he played in some ensemble.  I still don't know him as a soloist ...

Time to change that............
I cannot recommend any Bach Goldberg variations for harpsicord more highly than Hantai's first performance, I think it is essential for any Bach collection

BTW...........I found a Jaccottet 4CD set WTC on some off label at Amazon for $5 used, took a flyer  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 12, 2009, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 09:31:46 AM
Time to change that............
I cannot recommend any Bach Goldberg variations for harpsicord more highly than Hantai's first performance, I think it is essential for any Bach collection

BTW...........I found a Jaccottet 4CD set WTC on some off label at Amazon for $5 used, took a flyer  :)

Can't go wrong with that.  The late Jaccottet was a very classy Swiss harpsichordist.  Not sure why many of her recordings are deleted from the Philips catalog though.  I already have over 20 versions of Goldberg Variations, including haprsichord versions by Leonhardt and Pinnock but most are on piano. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 10:25:41 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 08:54:15 AM
Has anyone purchased the new Hantai/Mirare WTC I...........
If it is anything like his Goldbergs may have to try to ignore the high price of admission  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41H8R1A9FPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Short sound samples at Amazon sound great, as with Goldbergs uses harpsicord

The Hantai WTC I isn't quite a new disc; it was recorded in 2001-02 and released in 2004.  I haven't listened to it for about three years, so my comments are from memory.  Overall, I much prefer both his Goldbergs to his WTC.  I find the soundstage overly resonant, so counterpoint detail is not admirable.  Also, I found that Hantai doesn't like to dig into Bach's dark side at all.

I should report that my opinion appears to be in the minority, and it would also be a good idea for me to listen to the set again; it's always possible that my opinion could change. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 12, 2009, 10:32:19 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 10:25:41 AM
I should report that my opinion appears to be in the minority, and it would also be a good idea for me to listen to the set again; it's always possible that my opinion could change.

I think your opinion won't change because it is exact, IMO; although, probably, it would also be a good idea for me to listen to the set again...  :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 10:32:42 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 05:05:43 AM
Tureck/DG
I listened to the early 1950s mono set many like here, the sound does have a noticeable amount of tape noise but it is not serious and you notice it less as you listen on. My initial run through was interesting, the slow style of Tureck seems to be deep and probing like someone studying the music in great detail, a smooth elegant style. This may allow certain details and nuances to emerge that can be rushed over, but also sacrifices some forward momentum and dramatic energy.........I will have to revisit these after sometime to more fully understand them

"Deep and probing" is Tureck's calling card - I love her interpretations.  If I want forward momentum, there's always Gould and many others.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 10:34:48 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 12, 2009, 10:32:19 AM
I think your opinion won't change because it is exact, IMO; although, probably, it would also be a good idea for me to listen to the set again...  :D

Boy, I had no idea that anyone else shared my views about the Hantai WTC I.  I feel better already. ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on December 12, 2009, 10:43:41 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 10:32:42 AM
If I want forward momentum, there's always Gould and many others.

Maybe if I listen to other P&F's from his recording I might find it, but forward momentum was not something I find in the first two preludes of book 1. It was ambling away so slowly that it put me off from purchasing it. The music comes "in bits and pieces".
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 10:57:34 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 12, 2009, 10:43:41 AM
Maybe if I listen to other P&F's from his recording I might find it, but forward momentum was not something I find in the first two preludes of book 1. It was ambling away so slowly that it put me off from purchasing it. The music comes "in bits and pieces".

I'm surprised you feel this way about the Prelude in C minor where I find Gould's mild staccato quite invigorating with a strong dose of danger around the corner.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on December 12, 2009, 11:04:46 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 10:57:34 AM
I'm surprised you feel this way about the Prelude in C minor where I find Gould's mild staccato quite invigorating with a strong dose of danger around the corner.

Mild staccato? That's a mild way of putting it, I'd say. ;D Although I probably won't like it very fast, a sense of urgency is what I favour at the moment.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 11:34:25 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 12, 2009, 11:04:46 AM
Mild staccato? That's a mild way of putting it, I'd say. ;D Although I probably won't like it very fast, a sense of urgency is what I favour at the moment.

I'm not aware of any version of the Prelude in C minor that possesses greater urgency than Gould's, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 11:42:24 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 10:32:42 AM
"Deep and probing" is Tureck's calling card - I love her interpretations.  If I want forward momentum, there's always Gould and many others.

Bulldog what other worthy versions would you include in the Gould extrovert style............

Crossland/Signum
Got an amazing deal on the complete 4CD set new at Amazon USA for $11, gone now but keep watch as it pops up from time to time.

Crossland seems to be from the Tureck school, a gentle elegant style that floats by like a pleasant dream supported by an extremely high quality recording. The touch is so light and airy I sometimes thought I was hearing a harp and not a piano, however I found myself sometimes wishing there was more dramatic contrast, a touch of Gould, some vibrant colors to go with the beautiful pastel washes......
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 12:35:56 PM
Can anyone give me impressions of Suzuki/BIS WTC I, II...............
Where do they rank among harpsicord versions?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EToyRp1BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 02:57:36 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 11:42:24 AM
Bulldog what other worthy versions would you include in the Gould extrovert style............

Crossland/Signum
Got an amazing deal on the complete 4CD set new at Amazon USA for $11, gone now but keep watch as it pops up from time to time.

Crossland seems to be from the Tureck school, a gentle elegant style that floats by like a pleasant dream supported by an extremely high quality recording. The touch is so light and airy I sometimes thought I was hearing a harp and not a piano, however I found myself sometimes wishing there was more dramatic contrast, a touch of Gould, some vibrant colors to go with the beautiful pastel washes......

What I should have said is that every version is more extrovert than Tureck's.

Concerning Crossland, I think she's great with variety of colors and textures.  Actually, she often surprises me with these changes within the same piece.

I am starting to be a big fan of Andrew Rangell's WTC I on Bridge.  Some find him perverse and self-serving.  I did also initially, but I'm warming up.  His is a very interesting and unusual set of interpretations highlighted by much in the way of agogic pauses and little twists on our traditional notions of Bach's rhythmic patterns.  When you're listening to about 10 versions of the same prelude or fugue, the Rangell account gets your attention.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 03:29:27 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 12, 2009, 12:35:56 PM
Can anyone give me impressions of Suzuki/BIS WTC I, II...............
Where do they rank among harpsicord versions?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EToyRp1BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I've had his WTC I for a few years and find it highly artistic; however, the sound can be a little overbearing in the loudest pieces.  Have not yet picked up the WTC II but it remains on my high priority list.  As it is, I can listen to it all day long on the Naxos Music Library site.  I think you can acquire Suzuki's Bach with confidence, be it sacred choral or solo keyboard.  Try to give a listen to his ClavierUbung III on organ; I've never heard such powerful and severe readings - WOW!!!

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 12, 2009, 05:32:23 PM
Don - since you are are EXPERT on Bach's keyboard works, would you be kind enough to list your top 2-3 selections of the WTC on both the piano & the harpsichord for us?  This thread is currently becoming more lengthy and difficult to follow.

At present, for my own collection, I have Jill Crossland on the piano (culled down from some others) - is she enough on this instrument or is there 'another' more historic collection to own that is substantially different?

On the harpsichord, I own Peter Watchorn on the pedal harpsichord, Bk. 1, and have on order his Bk. 2 - I'd love to have a standard harpsichord version but there seem to be SO MANY suggested.

Any comments, listings, or recommendations would be appreciated - thanks, as usual - Dave
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 07:00:10 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 12, 2009, 05:32:23 PM
Don - since you are are EXPERT on Bach's keyboard works, would you be kind enough to list your top 2-3 selections of the WTC on both the piano & the harpsichord for us? 

Piano - Tureck/DG and BBC, Gould/Sony, Crossland/Signum, Gulda/Philips, Fellner/ECM (Bk. 1).

Harpsichord - Wilson/Apex, Leonhardt/EMI, Gilbert/DG, van Asperen/Virgin Classics, Verlet/Naive.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2009, 05:57:20 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 07:00:10 PM
Piano - Tureck/DG and BBC, Gould/Sony, Crossland/Signum, Gulda/Philips, Fellner/ECM (Bk. 1).

Harpsichord - Wilson/Apex, Leonhardt/EMI, Gilbert/DG, van Asperen/Virgin Classics, Verlet/Naive.

Have you had a chance to hear Pollini?

BTW -- a post of yours here put me on to Wilson's WTC -- for which I owe you a big thank you.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 13, 2009, 07:26:09 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 13, 2009, 05:57:20 AM
Have you had a chance to hear Pollini?

BTW -- a post of yours here put me on to Wilson's WTC -- for which I owe you a big thank you.

I made a few positive comments about the Pollini on Reply # 320 (this thread).

I'm glad you're enjoying the Wilson. 8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 13, 2009, 07:51:08 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 07:00:10 PM
Piano - Tureck/DG and BBC, Gould/Sony, Crossland/Signum, Gulda/Philips, Fellner/ECM (Bk. 1).

Harpsichord - Wilson/Apex, Leonhardt/EMI, Gilbert/DG, van Asperen/Virgin Classics, Verlet/Naive.

Don - thanks for the lists above; as stated, I do own the Jill Crossland set and am quite pleased w/ her playing; also have Bk. 1 w/ Craig Sheppard (recorded live); Bk. 2 came out last year, but I've not purchased that one - must re-listen to his first release of these works - not sure 'where' Sheppard or the 'new' Hewitt would be on your 'piano' list above (if at all?).

So, I guess that a harpsichord collection of both books would be my next search - not sure 'how many' of these may be available currently nor the pricing, but will check.  BTW, BRO has Bk. 2 w/ Scott Ross listed for $8 on a label called Disques Pelleas - Ross is often mentioned as one of the best, but don't know the opinion on his playing of the WTC?

Thanks again - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 13, 2009, 07:59:41 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 07:00:10 PM
Harpsichord - Wilson/Apex, Leonhardt/EMI, Gilbert/DG, van Asperen/Virgin Classics, Verlet/Naive.

Exactly my ranking!!!

As to Wilson I own the old Telefunken release, but where do one find the Apex release, you write about?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 08:06:38 AM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 07:59:41 AM
Exactly my ranking!!!

As to Wilson I own the old Telefunken release, but where do one find the Apex release, you write about?

premont,

I have collected pretty much 90% of the same list over the years.  I just have Christiane Jaccottet instead of Glen Wilson.  I found the late Christiane Jaccottet a terrific harpsichordist.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 13, 2009, 08:09:43 AM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 07:59:41 AM
Exactly my ranking!!!

As to Wilson I own the old Telefunken release, but where do one find the Apex release, you write about?

Premont - I also meant to ask Don if his lists were in a 'best to least best' order or just the 'tops' placed randomly - so I'd be interested in any comments regarding that question?

Don directed me to another Bach set on Apex, i.e. Alan Curtis doing the French & English Suites; eventually found the 3 discs, and at a good price - must start searching for the WTC offerings (may be a mixing of several performers?) - thanks - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 13, 2009, 08:23:37 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 08:06:38 AM
premont,

I found the late Christiane Jaccottet a terrific harpsichordist.

Agree, but exactly her WTC is IMO the weakest point of her Bach set, - I would rank this at the level of, say Verlet. Another one I would rank equally high is Davit Moroney. Mark you, we are talking about the top rank recordings, and the difference in "score" between Wilson and Jacccttet here is not that large.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 08:34:45 AM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 08:23:37 AM
Agree, but exactly her WTC is IMO the weakest point of her Bach set, - I would rank this at the level of, say Verlet. Another one I would rank equally high is Davit Moroney. Mark you, we are talking about the top rank recordings, and the difference in "score" between Wilson and Jacccttet here is not that large.

Absolutely.  When it comes to baroque instrumental music, it is usually easy for two different people to make the same call when the performance is bad.  However, it is not so easy to rank two virtuosi.  I am happy with my Jaccottet's recordings and not willing to shell out a somewhat ridiculous amount of money just to get Wilson's recordings.  The money could be better spent elsewhere,  Davit Moroney is an excellent harpsichordist, as I just bought this set about a month ago ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41G1E0CXKVL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 13, 2009, 09:12:47 AM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 07:59:41 AM
Exactly my ranking!!!

As to Wilson I own the old Telefunken release, but where do one find the Apex release, you write about?

The Wilson is listed on Arkiv Music as on Teldec - almost $50 for both sets.  Price is steep, but the performances well worth it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 13, 2009, 09:15:25 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 13, 2009, 07:51:08 AM
Don - thanks for the lists above; as stated, I do own the Jill Crossland set and am quite pleased w/ her playing; also have Bk. 1 w/ Craig Sheppard (recorded live); Bk. 2 came out last year, but I've not purchased that one - must re-listen to his first release of these works - not sure 'where' Sheppard or the 'new' Hewitt would be on your 'piano' list above (if at all?).

So, I guess that a harpsichord collection of both books would be my next search - not sure 'how many' of these may be available currently nor the pricing, but will check.  BTW, BRO has Bk. 2 w/ Scott Ross listed for $8 on a label called Disques Pelleas - Ross is often mentioned as one of the best, but don't know the opinion on his playing of the WTC?

Thanks again - Dave  :)

I haven't listened enough to the Sheppard or new Hewitt WTC to give what I would call a conclusion about their sets.  As for Ross, go for it - a great Bk. 2 that I've loved for about 3 years now.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 13, 2009, 09:16:42 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 13, 2009, 08:09:43 AM
Premont - I also meant to ask Don if his lists were in a 'best to least best' order or just the 'tops' placed randomly - so I'd be interested in any comments regarding that question?

It's "best to least best" but the distance between them is pretty slim.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 13, 2009, 09:21:51 AM
Another WTC I forgot about comes from Andrei Vieru on Alpha.  Very interesting performances chock full of agogic pauses, staggering of musical lines and rhythmic hesitations.

A while back I did a review of his Bk. 1 and the Bk. 1 from Beausejour on Naxos for Classical Net.  No contest - Beausejour is so mainstream and rather boring.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 14, 2009, 07:22:05 PM
Quote from: George on December 08, 2009, 04:58:40 AM
Try Feinberg.  8)
http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35887&genreid=

Click on "Preview" to sample, I think it plays the whole first CD.

George this is a real winner..........
Never heard of Samuel Feinberg before and extremely small number of recordings available, the 1958-1961 sound is no problem at all for me, very quiet background in latest remaster.

When listening to different WTCs there is a varying degree of analytical rigor that can border on rigidity with some, the best have a natural flow overcomes this...............the Fienberg is perhaps the most expressive free flowing WTC I think I have heard for piano, traditionialists will be put off by the freedom of expression and say he is bending the dogmatic "Bach rules" of playing but I find it fresh and exciting. Just wanted to let you know my initial thoughts

I will keep listening over next few days, any more overlooked gems you are holding back from us?  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 14, 2009, 07:34:59 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 14, 2009, 07:22:05 PM
George this is a real winner..........
Never heard of Samuel Feinberg before and extremely small number of recordings available, the 1958-1961 sound is no problem at all for me, very quiet background in latest remaster.

Glad you like it, I suggest grabbing a copy before it's OOP.

QuoteWhen listening to different WTCs there is a varying degree of analytical rigor that can border on rigidity with some, the best have a natural flow overcomes this...............the Fienberg is perhaps the most expressive free flowing WTC I think I have heard for piano, traditionialists will be put off by the freedom of expression and say he is bending the dogmatic "Bach rules" of playing but I find it fresh and exciting. Just wanted to let you know my initial thoughts

Yes, his is a very beautiful, poetic Bach.

Quote
I will keep listening over next few days, any more overlooked gems you are holding back from us?  :)

;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 14, 2009, 07:40:12 PM
Quote from: George on December 14, 2009, 07:34:59 PM
Glad you like it, I suggest grabbing a copy before it's OOP.

Yes, his is a very beautiful, poetic Bach.

I already received my CD version, fast shipping by Russian DVD  :)

I will be comparing the Feinberg to the Gould/Sony since I feel Feinberg is nearly as daring in style as Gould yet able to present a more balanced naturally flowing sound......sucessfully walks the line between genius & disaster
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 14, 2009, 07:43:59 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 14, 2009, 07:40:12 PM
I already received my CD version, fast shipping by Russian DVD  :)

Wow, very quick indeed!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 16, 2009, 07:39:18 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NXCKE1PHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Have been enjoying the Kirkpatrick/Archiv WTC set on clavicord from 1960s, the unique sound quality had me doing some basic research to see exactly how clavicord produces sound. Clavicord uses metal wires that are struck from above and sound can vary by amount of force used to strike key and length of time key is depressed, thereby giving it some expressive features missing from harpsicord play. The volume level is low however making it primarily a solo use instrument (or small intimate chamber group).

Has a delicate intricate sound that can reveal many musical harmonies, I liked it more than I thought I would, but only as a supplement to piano & harpsicord. The lack of volume projection can be offset with close miking for solo work, but still sounds a bit anemic overall compared to piano & harpsicord, dramatic contrasts are minimized

Anyone else like these or have any other clavicord versions to recommend?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 18, 2009, 06:18:19 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 16, 2009, 07:39:18 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NXCKE1PHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Have been enjoying the Kirkpatrick/Archiv WTC set on clavicord from 1960s, the unique sound quality had me doing some basic research to see exactly how clavicord produces sound. Clavicord uses metal wires that are struck from above and sound can vary by amount of force used to strike key and length of time key is depressed, thereby giving it some expressive features missing from harpsicord play. The volume level is low however making it primarily a solo use instrument (or small intimate chamber group).

Has a delicate intricate sound that can reveal many musical harmonies, I liked it more than I thought I would, but only as a supplement to piano & harpsicord. The lack of volume projection can be offset with close miking for solo work, but still sounds a bit anemic overall compared to piano & harpsicord, dramatic contrasts are minimized

Anyone else like these or have any other clavicord versions to recommend?

I bought this CD a few months ago and still cannot make up my mind as to whether I really like this recording or not ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 06:35:43 AM
Hewitt
I got the new WTC set and compared it to older set. It is basically just a touch slower and more refined overall, but to be honest I will keep the original set and sell new one. Nothing really to be very critical about, great sound and elegant refined performances.....the critics will love it to death and good safe recommendation. Hewitt said in notes she has a freer style from exposure to french baroque like Couperin, and has gained experience form many years of live WTC performances.......still I find the first set more interesting which I suspect will be a minority view

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31eDzbM9y6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VpYrtp4oL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 06:42:52 AM
Two recently acquired WTC piano versions have hit the spot with me:

Samuel Feinberg WTC I, II - mentioned by George, available at Russian DVD in very good remaster form 1958-1961
Horszowski WTC I, very cheap on Vanguard Classics label 1978
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 06:51:45 AM
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread Watchorn WTC I set which is unique because of pedal harpsicord used, gives extended dynamic range with greater lower octaves......has a warmer overall sound as a result with opportunity for enhanced dramatic impact, samples sound good order has been placed:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cd3srKjUL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 07:00:43 AM
Watchorn also unique in instrument tuning system used as outlined on this website:
http://www.larips.com/ (http://www.larips.com/)

Seems the decorative scrolling on WTC title page is thought to actually be a guide for tuning instrument.....
What do members think of this theory?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 19, 2009, 07:17:37 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 06:42:52 AM
Two recently acquired WTC piano versions have hit the spot with me:

Samuel Feinberg WTC I, II - mentioned by George, available at Russian DVD in very good remaster form 1958-1961
Horszowski WTC I, very cheap on Vanguard Classics label 1978

Glad you are enjoying the former. I should get the latter at some point, as I don't own anything by that pianist and his name keeps coming up. .
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 19, 2009, 07:23:49 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 06:51:45 AM
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread Watchorn WTC I set which is unique because of pedal harpsicord used, gives extended dynamic range with greater lower octaves......has a warmer overall sound as a result with opportunity for enhanced dramatic impact, samples sound good order has been placed:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cd3srKjUL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://www.musicaomnia.org/images/mo0202-fc272x233.jpg)

DA - if not already done, checkout the posts on Watchorn & the pedal harpsichord (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.40.html) in the 'old musical instruments' thread - I've had his first set of the WTC for a while; and I've had his WTC II (on 3 discs) on order for a while but production has been delayed - received an e-mail from Watchorn the other day that the set should be in the mail any time, so if you like him playing these works on the pedal harpsichord, then maybe another addition to your 'wish list'?  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 19, 2009, 08:47:46 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 06:42:52 AM
Two recently acquired WTC piano versions have hit the spot with me:

Samuel Feinberg WTC I, II - mentioned by George, available at Russian DVD in very good remaster form 1958-1961
Horszowski WTC I, very cheap on Vanguard Classics label 1978

DA.  When it comes to solo piano music, be it Bach or Chopin, George is the go-to guy, period.  I don't bother with anyone else on this forum ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 19, 2009, 09:28:47 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 19, 2009, 08:47:46 AM
... it comes to solo piano music, be it Bach ...

... perfect, if Bach had composed solo piano music...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 09:40:43 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 19, 2009, 08:47:46 AM
DA.  When it comes to solo piano music, be it Bach or Chopin, George is the go-to guy, period.  I don't bother with anyone else on this forum ...

Indeed............he is one to keep an eye on  ;)

But there is an amazing amount amount of extremely useful info at this forum from many members that you won't find anywhere else, so I just take it all in and discover many new things in the process, exchange ideas etc
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 19, 2009, 09:50:31 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 19, 2009, 09:28:47 AM
... perfect, if Bach had composed solo piano music...

I do not believe Bach WTC, Goldberg Variations or the Italian Concerto were performed on four hands?  Have I missed something?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 19, 2009, 09:53:38 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 09:40:43 AM
Indeed............he is one to keep an eye on  ;)

But there is an amazing amount amount of extremely useful info at this forum from many members that you won't find anywhere else, so I just take it all in and discover many new things in the process, exchange ideas etc

The bottomline is, I arrived at 95% of all my WTC's which are on so called the expert's recommended list based on my own research, not through anyone from the forum, save the Richter's version recommended by George.  You probably could have done the same ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 19, 2009, 01:38:00 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 09:40:43 AM
But there is an amazing amount amount of extremely useful info at this forum from many members that you won't find anywhere else, so I just take it all in and discover many new things in the process, exchange ideas etc

*pounds fist on the table*
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 19, 2009, 01:41:36 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 19, 2009, 09:50:31 AM
I do not believe Bach WTC, Goldberg Variations or the Italian Concerto were performed on four hands?  Have I missed something?

Evidently.  The key word here is "piano", not "solo".
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 04:38:44 PM
Tureck/DG
I will have to come back and try this set again after sometime has passed, at first listen it is not the style I usually like but many people here seem to be enchanted by its magic so I will see if I can get a new perspective on it.

A few more versions on the way, but Xmas has slowed down delivery times:
-Watchorn WTC I
-Suzuki WTC II
-Hantai WTC I
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 04:48:11 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 19, 2009, 07:23:49 AM
DA I've had his first set of the WTC for a while; and I've had his WTC II (on 3 discs) on order for a while but production has been delayed

Wonder why Watchorn WTC II is stretched out to 3 Cds.......is there some bonus material included?
Only other WTC II that requires 3 CDs I have seen is the Tureck/BBC Legends
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 19, 2009, 05:00:29 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 04:48:11 PM
Wonder why Watchorn WTC II is stretched out to 3 Cds.......is there some bonus material included?
Only other WTC II that requires 3 CDs I have seen is the Tureck/BBC Legends

No bonus material; it's a matter of tempos.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 19, 2009, 05:06:07 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 19, 2009, 08:47:46 AM
DA.  When it comes to solo piano music, be it Bach or Chopin, George is the go-to guy, period.  I don't bother with anyone else on this forum ...

That's a rather insulting and/or misinformed statement.  To begin with, there is a major distinction to be made between piano music and baroque keyboard music.  George is certainly one of our resident experts on piano music; I pay much attention to his recommendations and frequent insights.  However, for Bach and other baroque keyboard music, members such as Antoine, Que and Premont have much to offer.  I'm sure I've left out some other experts and apologize in advance.

Of course, Coopmv also has expertise - finding the cheapest source for recordings.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 19, 2009, 05:09:04 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 04:48:11 PM
Wonder why Watchorn WTC II is stretched out to 3 Cds.......is there some bonus material included?
Only other WTC II that requires 3 CDs I have seen is the Tureck/BBC Legends

DA - Antoine contacted Watchorn a couple of months ago and quoted his response a while back HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.msg360639.html#msg360639) - scroll to response #335 for his reply -  :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 05:38:35 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 19, 2009, 05:00:29 PM
No bonus material; it's a matter of tempos.

Bulldog, is it purely slower tempo or does Watchorn include repeats other performers usually don't?

I read that email response Sonic referred to by Watchorn and even without the 9 minute "bonus" material the total timing is 177 minutes for his WTC II.......substantially longer than average WTC II

The Tureck/DG WTC II which is slowest tempo I have heard total time 144 minutes
Speedy tempo Gould/Sony WTC II total time 104 minutes
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 19, 2009, 06:18:14 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 06:35:43 AM
Hewitt
I got the new WTC set and compared it to older set. It is basically just a touch slower and more refined overall, but to be honest I will keep the original set and sell new one. Nothing really to be very critical about, great sound and elegant refined performances.....the critics will love it to death and good safe recommendation. Hewitt said in notes she has a freer style from exposure to french baroque like Couperin, and has gained experience form many years of live WTC performances.......still I find the first set more interesting which I suspect will be a minority view

I haven't heard Hewitt's new WTC but I'm on board with enjoying her earlier Bach recordings. I like her subtlety - all kinds of little things going on that bring the music to life.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on December 19, 2009, 06:24:54 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 06:35:43 AM
Hewitt
I got the new WTC set and compared it to older set. It is basically just a touch slower and more refined overall, but to be honest I will keep the original set and sell new one. Nothing really to be very critical about, great sound and elegant refined performances.....the critics will love it to death and good safe recommendation. Hewitt said in notes she has a freer style from exposure to french baroque like Couperin, and has gained experience form many years of live WTC performances.......still I find the first set more interesting which I suspect will be a minority view

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31eDzbM9y6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VpYrtp4oL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Actually, I thought her Couperin recordings were dreadful.  If that experience informs her new recordings it would make me tend to stay away.    I have and admire the first set, and with all of the different options, to get a second set by the same performer seems like a waste of resources.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 19, 2009, 06:25:15 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 19, 2009, 05:06:07 PM

Of course, Coopmv also has expertise - finding the cheapest source for recordings.

Perhaps you should learn to be more financially savvy, buddy.  Our disdain for each other is mutual, lets leave it at that.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on December 19, 2009, 06:31:50 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 19, 2009, 05:06:07 PM
That's a rather insulting and/or misinformed statement.  To begin with, there is a major distinction to be made between piano music and baroque keyboard music.  George is certainly one of our resident experts on piano music; I pay much attention to his recommendations and frequent insights.  However, for Bach and other baroque keyboard music, members such as Antoine, Que and Premont have much to offer.  I'm sure I've left out some other experts and apologize in advance.

Of course, Coopmv also has expertise - finding the cheapest source for recordings.

People here are mostly experts on their own taste.  I don't see see the opinions of anyone here as authoritative.  I have noticed that there are some here whose tastes are similar to my own, whose opinions I therefore tend to pay attention to.   But George is not in that category, so I find my self not influenced very much by the opinions he expresses.  On the other hand, Bulldog's comments on Bach performance are always taken note of.   ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 19, 2009, 06:37:40 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 19, 2009, 06:31:50 PM
People here are mostly experts on their own taste.  I don't see see the opinions of anyone here as authoritative. 

Scarpia,  You hit the nail right on its head.  I do respect George for his knowledge of piano works.   But when it comes to other subgenres of classical music, I do not see opinions from anyone here as cast in stone.  If someone feels this way, that is too bad ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 20, 2009, 09:18:44 AM
QuoteWatchorn also unique in instrument tuning system used as outlined on this website:
http://www.larips.com/ (http://www.larips.com/)

Will run this by a second time to see if there are any takers...........
Can this graphic scoll really be a visual instruction guide for how Bach tunes his keyboards, any comments observations most welcome.  If this is true my respect for Bach grow even more profound.

If Mr Watchorn reads these threads would love to hear his take on this
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 20, 2009, 09:27:26 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 19, 2009, 06:25:15 PM
Perhaps you should learn to be more financially savvy, buddy.  Our disdain for each other is mutual, lets leave it at that.

I can't; "I finish things" :D.

I've been looking for any opportunity to repeat that line used by Clint in Gran Torino. :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 20, 2009, 10:08:21 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 20, 2009, 09:18:44 AM
Will run this by a second time to see if there are any takers...........
Can this graphic scoll really be a visual instruction guide for how Bach tunes his keyboards, any comments observations most welcome.  If this is true my respect for Bach grow even more profound.

It makes sense to me, and Lehman's discovery has received a good reception from musicologists.  In addition, performers such as Watchorn, Egarr and others have totally embraced it (as far as I can tell).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 20, 2009, 04:07:28 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41OCtY0Gw8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Just listened to 3 CD Schiff/Decca WTC I, II and was better than I expected, these date back to 1984-85 and are fairly cheap on the used market since they get lost in the mix of the newest releases. I expected them to be a bit stodgy and stiff, but Schiff is surprisingly flexible and very competitive with some of the current big names.......

For instance I just revisited Hewitt/Hyperion and do not think Schiff yeilds any ground to that version which receives a rosette in Penguin Guide. I am not saying it is best piano version since Gould & Feinberg to name two I rate a bit higher, but just remind people these fine versions are available if not forgotten.....

I specifically hunted these down because the new Schiff/ECM performances of Goldberg & Partitas greatly impressed me, I plan to add any new ECM versions as they are released  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on December 20, 2009, 05:17:29 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 20, 2009, 10:08:21 AM
It makes sense to me, and Lehman's discovery has received a good reception from musicologists.  In addition, performers such as Watchorn, Egarr and others have totally embraced it (as far as I can tell).

It may or may not have anything to do with the tuning.  When I looked into it a while back it struck me that interpretation of those various loops and squiggles was far from obvious, and subject to multiple interpretations.  The interpretation they made struck me as counter-intuitive.  If Bach though the tuning method was so important, why didn't he notate it in a way that could be deciphered?  Aside from that, the system that is claimed to be specified by the squiggle is not that different from other standard tunings used at the time, such as the Valotti method.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on December 20, 2009, 05:18:58 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 20, 2009, 04:07:28 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41OCtY0Gw8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Just listened to 3 CD Schiff/Decca WTC I, II and was better than I expected, these date back to 1984-85 and are fairly cheap on the used market since they get lost in the mix of the newest releases. I expected them to be a bit stodgy and stiff, but Schiff is surprisingly flexible and very competitive with some of the current big names.......

For instance I just revisited Hewitt/Hyperion and do not think Schiff yeilds any ground to that version which receives a rosette in Penguin Guide. I am not saying it is best piano version since Gould & Feinberg to name two I rate a bit higher, but just remind people these fine versions are available if not forgotten.....

I specifically hunted these down because the new Schiff/ECM performances of Goldberg & Partitas greatly impressed me, I plan to add any new ECM versions as they are released  :)

The only thing I find surprising in this is the pre-conception that Schiff would be stiff or unengaging.  For me he is near the top of the pile.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 20, 2009, 06:12:36 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 20, 2009, 05:17:29 PM
It may or may not have anything to do with the tuning.  When I looked into it a while back it struck me that interpretation of those various loops and squiggles was far from obvious, and subject to multiple interpretations.  The interpretation they made struck me as counter-intuitive.  If Bach though the tuning method was so important, why didn't he notate it in a way that could be deciphered?  Aside from that, the system that is claimed to be specified by the squiggle is not that different from other standard tunings used at the time, such as the Valotti method.

Have you heard any Bach performances using the Lehman system?  What do you think?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on December 20, 2009, 09:43:03 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 20, 2009, 06:12:36 PM
Have you heard any Bach performances using the Lehman system?  What do you think?

I became very interested in the issue after reading about Watchorn's recording.  Then I got a copy of Watchorn's recording of the Toccatas, which I really didn't like, so I never listened to Watchorn's WTC.

I can't say it can disprove it, but Lehman's interpretation of the ornament on Bach's manuscript doesn't convince me. 

I found this treatment of temperament to be very interesting.

http://pages.globetrotter.net/roule/temper.htm#_nr_340

There were numerous tuning systems known in Bach's time which produced a "well tempered" instrument. 

For the curious, Lehman's argument is presented at http://www.larips.com/
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 21, 2009, 04:15:57 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DsUhw9wcL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ciEd7VgCL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

For fans of Richter/RCA WTC...........
I saw Jens list of top new & reissue Cds for 2009 and there was newly remastered versions of both books of Richter WTC set so fans can take what action they deem appropriate. I am not a huge fan of the Richter set so I keep the old versions.

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1471 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1471)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on December 31, 2009, 04:38:20 PM
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/43/432833.JPG)

Finally received my Glen Wilson/Teldec (Arkiv re-issue) WTC.............I really like Wilsons overall presentation and sound, but for some reason on many sections I hear meachanical instrument noise, a click/clack sound from operation of instrument. I occassionally hear it on any harpsicord recording but seems to be more emphasized here, enough to be distracting. Perhaps has to do with location of recording mike, or just design of this harpsicord

Am I imagining this?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 01, 2010, 12:27:37 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 31, 2009, 04:38:20 PM
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/43/432833.JPG)

Finally received my Glen Wilson/Teldec (Arkiv re-issue) WTC.............I really like Wilsons overall presentation and sound, but for some reason on many sections I hear meachanical instrument noise, a click/clack sound from operation of instrument. I occassionally hear it on any harpsicord recording but seems to be more emphasized here, enough to be distracting. Perhaps has to do with location of recording mike, or just design of this harpsicord

Am I imagining this?

No, you have good ears, perhaps too good.  It's a frequent noise, but I find it rather distant, similar to the sound of castanets and in line with the rhythmic patterns.  Doesn't bother me at all. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on January 01, 2010, 03:55:21 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 01, 2010, 12:27:37 AM
No, you have good ears, perhaps too good.  It's a frequent noise, but I find it rather distant, similar to the sound of castanets and in line with the rhythmic patterns.  Doesn't bother me at all.

Yes that desciribes the sound, like a castanet click/clack......would not cause me to sell this WTC, just something to be aware of.

Performance wise like many here have said Glen Wilson is one of the best available, very balanced fluid sound that would appeal to broad number of listeners, the fine sounding keyboard is a replica harpsicord after Christian Zell 1728 Hamburg. I have a couple more harpsicord WTCs coming and then I will have to make some general comparisons

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on January 01, 2010, 08:12:03 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 01, 2010, 12:27:37 AM
No, you have good ears, perhaps too good.  It's a frequent noise, but I find it rather distant, similar to the sound of castanets and in line with the rhythmic patterns.  Doesn't bother me at all.

Yes, like the tracker noise from an organ - part of the nature of the instrument.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 01, 2010, 08:27:21 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on January 01, 2010, 03:55:21 AM
Yes that desciribes the sound, like a castanet click/clack......would not cause me to sell this WTC, just something to be aware of.

Performance wise like many here have said Glen Wilson is one of the best available, very balanced fluid sound that would appeal to broad number of listeners, the fine sounding keyboard is a replica harpsicord after Christian Zell 1728 Hamburg. I have a couple more harpsicord WTCs coming and then I will have to make some general comparisons

One thing I hadn't considered concerning the mechanical noises.  Is it possible that the sound on the Arkiv on-demand copies is a little different?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bogey on January 01, 2010, 10:06:14 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 01, 2010, 08:27:21 AM
One thing I hadn't considered concerning the mechanical noises.  Is it possible that the sound on the Arkiv on-demand copies is a little different?

I have not read anything where they tinkered with the mastering, Don.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 01, 2010, 10:15:38 AM
Quote from: Que on January 01, 2010, 08:58:14 AM
I have that set, and frankly I do not recall noticing anything of the sort.
I will have a listen tomorrow morning - will report back to you. :)

Q

I hadn't noticed it either until DarkAngel brought it up.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on January 01, 2010, 10:54:27 AM
Quote from: Bogey on January 01, 2010, 10:06:14 AM
I have not read anything where they tinkered with the mastering, Don.

Quote from: Bulldog on January 01, 2010, 10:15:38 AM
I hadn't noticed it either until DarkAngel brought it up.

Neither had I. This is of course, because we are used to these discrete mechanical extra-sounds.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Clever Hans on January 01, 2010, 07:49:09 PM
Hello harpsichord fans,

I got Suzuki's WTC II from arkivmusic 2 weeks ago. At this time, I think his complete set is as insightful as and complementary to Leonhardt's, Gilbert's and Wilson's. I do not have Asperen's but love his English Suites, so I will be picking his up and maybe his French Suites on Aeolus after I order a couple Parmentier recordings.

I think Suzuki's playing is very tasteful, subtle and nuanced, and with nice choices in tempi and development. He is often a little more gentle than the others--and this is enhanced by the recording quality I believe-- but I'm glad someone has chosen this interpretative route, treating the lines like benevolent voices, I suppose.

Two of my favorites at the moment are his BWV875 Praeludium and BWV887 Fuge, where patience pays off. And I love how he lets the first chord of the BWV870 Praeludium hang, which no one else does.

It seems to me that some reviewers aren't willing to honor Suzuki's stylistic approach, or give him ratings just shy of great, perhaps presuming fortune's allotment has already been spent on his cantata recordings.

But I think Suzuki's WTC and Partitas rank with the best. In the latter he plays the 6th's gigue squared which I like.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on January 02, 2010, 05:38:10 AM
Quote from: Que on January 02, 2010, 02:01:35 AM
Darkangel, I'm listening to Glen Wilson's Book II right now and I'll be damned if I hear any obtrusive/ clearly noticeable noises. (Do you listen using headphones?)
Since neither Don nor Premont have noticed it as well, I'm wondering if that CD-R copy that you got from Arkiv is quite OK?

I listen using high end stereo, Bulldog (Don) said it sounds like castanets in the background which is a very good description, it is a sound you will hear ocassionally in almost any harpsicord recording if you listen closely, just more obvious here for whatever reason.........nothing that will cause me to sell this version or overlook this fine performance.


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on January 02, 2010, 05:51:36 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 01, 2010, 07:49:09 PM
I got Suzuki's WTC II from arkivmusic 2 weeks ago. At this time, I think his complete set is as insightful as and complementary to Leonhardt's, Gilbert's and Wilson's. I do not have Asperen's but love his English Suites, so I will be picking his up and maybe his French Suites on Aeolus after I order a couple Parmentier recordings.

I think Suzuki's playing is very tasteful, subtle and nuanced, and with nice choices in tempi and development. He is often a little more gentle than the others--and this is enhanced by the recording quality I believe-- but I'm glad someone has chosen this interpretative route, treating the lines like benevolent voices, I suppose.

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/bisbiscd151314.jpg)

I also just acquired the Suzuki/BIS WTC II and you description is close to my feeling.....Zen and the art of WTC.

Subtle and elegantly nueanced with balanced tempi, this seems to be an extension of his Bach sacred vocal works for BIS.........I would like a touch more dramatic contrast since WTC is a secular work, but with the great sound quality this will be very popular with the public and critics  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on January 02, 2010, 06:10:57 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on January 02, 2010, 05:51:36 AM
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/bisbiscd151314.jpg)

I also just acquired the Suzuki/BIS WTC II and you description is close to my feeling.....Zen and the art of WTC.


Sounds very cool!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on January 02, 2010, 06:36:19 AM
Quote from: George on January 02, 2010, 06:10:57 AM
Sounds very cool!

Just the thing for a certain Minnesotan member. ;)


(What! Minnesotan isn't a word?)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 02, 2010, 07:12:10 AM
Curious about Suzuki's WTC I also, i.e. good dual set to own for harpsichord?

According to this Fanfare Review (http://www.fanfaremag.com/content/view/35534/10238/), the WTC II is considered potentially one of the best performances on this instrument; interestingly, mention is made that Suzuki's release of the first book was back in 1997!  Any thoughts about that recording from those who may own the set?  Looks like a nice 4-CD package that BIS could put together in the near future?  :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 02, 2010, 09:43:11 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 02, 2010, 07:12:10 AM
Curious about Suzuki's WTC I also, i.e. good dual set to own for harpsichord?

According to this Fanfare Review (http://www.fanfaremag.com/content/view/35534/10238/), the WTC II is considered potentially one of the best performances on this instrument; interestingly, mention is made that Suzuki's release of the first book was back in 1997!  Any thoughts about that recording from those who may own the set?  Looks like a nice 4-CD package that BIS could put together in the near future?  :D

I have Suzuki's Bk. 1 and find it an excellent account.  It likely will be issued with Bk. 2 at some point, but I wouldn't want to wait that long.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Clever Hans on January 02, 2010, 01:17:51 PM
I just listened to Suzuki's Book I again to refresh my memory, and I think it is on about the same level as his Book II, and here are some examples why:

In the BWV 847 Prelude, he starts with a strong and steady tactus and when he reaches the 1:07 mark he lets loose. Pierre Hantai starts fast and does something similar, although he is more intensely virtuosic. 

The BWV 849 Prelude and Fugue are extremely beautiful, particularly how Suzuki draws out tension in the Fugue. He also plays a little arpeggiated flourish at 3:40 in the lead up to the dissonant chord, which is interesting.

He plays the BWV 851 prelude at a slower than common tempo, which is just as effective as Gilbert's drive or Leonhardt's lute stop in giving character. In general, I would agree with others that Suzuki brings out a feeling of gracefulness and dance in much of his playing.

The BWV 855 Fugue is very exciting, especially taken in contrast with the Prelude, which is developmentally astounding.

BWV 864 Fugue, how his articulation spreads out and then reins in the rhythmic energy. To put it lightly, it must require concentration to be able to do this.

BWV 867 Fugue has the most tasteful ornamentation.






 

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Holden on January 04, 2010, 12:07:47 AM
I have a number of versions of this great compendium - all different and all worthwhile. They include the prim and proper Andras Schiff, the bombastic Richter, Feinberg's pioneering approach and the journeyman Jeno Jando.

Today I got a version (Book I only) out of the library that really made me sit up and listen.  It's very different and certainly not one for the purists. What struck me most of all is the way the fugues were handled. This pianist attempted to bring out all the voices and give each one it's little solo where he thought they should stand up and be counted and regardless of whether they were SAT or B. While it didn't work for every single fugue it was very effective for many of them and the technical skill required to do this and get away with it was hair raising in places.

It is the orchestral/operatic approach to these works that makes this CD so interesting and one I will purchase specifically for this aspect. The fact that this pianist is also a conductor listening to it I sought out reviews. The musical critics were not impressed. Jed Distler really panned it (no surprise). When I went to Amazon however the reviews overall were very positive in the main. This is possibly a recording that might get someone into listening to and enjoying the WTC who would otherwise have ignored it.

As for me, I really like this Bk I recording. It's the fugues in particular that have really grabbed me. With all my other recordings the opposite has been the case.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 04, 2010, 05:38:34 AM
Why didn't you name the pianist?  For the present, I'll assume you're talking about Barenboim.  FWIW, my opinion of the performances is in sync with Distler's.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Carolus on January 04, 2010, 05:53:35 AM
Gulda's enough for me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: springrite on January 04, 2010, 05:58:27 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 04, 2010, 05:38:34 AM
Why didn't you name the pianist? 

Maybe this is a quiz thread...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on January 04, 2010, 06:32:06 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 04, 2010, 05:38:34 AM
Why didn't you name the pianist?  For the present, I'll assume you're talking about Barenboim.  FWIW, my opinion of the performances is in sync with Distler's.

Indeed, what is the purpose of discussing an unknown performance?
Bulldog most likely has guessed the performance in question:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=8061 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=8061)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Holden on January 04, 2010, 01:41:05 PM
Sorry, in my haste write the thread I forgot. it is Barenboim.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on January 04, 2010, 08:42:22 PM
Quote from: Holden on January 04, 2010, 01:41:05 PM
Sorry, in my haste write the thread I forgot. it is Barenboim.

No need to haste, - Barenboim surely does not run anywhere.   :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on January 21, 2010, 01:11:34 PM
Have recently listened to the first six preludes and fugues of Bk I from Glenn Gould.  I must say, I am not getting a great deal of pleasure from these recordings and I wonder if I should continue listening, given the number of alternatives.  Certainly the clarity of the articulation is admirable, but at times I feel like I am listening to a player piano or a midi synthesizer. 

And, again it seems a shame that this pianist, who did not give any concerts in his substantive career, left only a small number of recordings which are characterized by very poor audio engineering, judging from this set.   

Maybe I should listen to that Barenboim set, mentioned above and gathering dust on my shelves.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 22, 2010, 10:17:42 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 21, 2010, 01:11:34 PM
Have recently listened to the first six preludes and fugues of Bk I from Glenn Gould.  I must say, I am not getting a great deal of pleasure from these recordings and I wonder if I should continue listening, given the number of alternatives.  Certainly the clarity of the articulation is admirable, but at times I feel like I am listening to a player piano or a midi synthesizer. 

And, again it seems a shame that this pianist, who did not give any concerts in his substantive career, left only a small number of recordings which are characterized by very poor audio engineering, judging from this set.   

Maybe I should listen to that Barenboim set, mentioned above and gathering dust on my shelves.

You're a hard man to please when it comes to sound quality; I don't find Gould's sound bad at all.

As for either of the Barenboim sets, they shouldn't be gathering dust on your shelves; they should be in the next refuse pick-up. :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on January 22, 2010, 10:41:11 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 22, 2010, 10:17:42 AM
You're a hard man to please when it comes to sound quality; I don't find Gould's sound bad at all.

As for either of the Barenboim sets, they shouldn't be gathering dust on your shelves; they should be in the next refuse pick-up. :D

He did two?  I have a set from Warner Classics.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on January 22, 2010, 10:58:39 AM
Any opinions about Pollini's recent release of Book I?

To add my $.02, I'm perfectly satisfied with the sonics and the musicianship on Gould's recordings. Out of those that I have heard of his recordings (most of them Bach), the only recording of his that I have not been impressed by is the Hindemith sonatas, and I suspect that's because of Hindemith, not Gould.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 22, 2010, 07:58:00 PM
In the current issue of American Record Guide, the recent Pieter Belder Brilliant Classics set was hailed as worthy to stand on the same footing as Dantone and Maasuki. I mean, Suzuki. Considering the price advantage, I think I'll go for it as a replacement to The Olde Verlet nad Moroney versions. Fresh blood, yeeaahh >:D ! Oups! ::)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 22, 2010, 08:28:34 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 22, 2010, 10:41:11 AM
He did two?  I have a set from Warner Classics.

Sorry.  Barenboim didn't do two; one set is Bk. 1, the other Bk. 2.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on January 23, 2010, 04:59:57 AM
Quote from: Barak on January 22, 2010, 07:58:00 PM
In the current issue of American Record Guide, the recent Pieter Belder Brilliant Classics set was hailed as worthy to stand on the same footing as Dantone and Maasuki. I mean, Suzuki. Considering the price advantage, I think I'll go for it as a replacement to The Olde Verlet nad Moroney versions. Fresh blood, yeeaahh >:D ! Oups! ::)

I always take new reviews with a grain of salt..........."flavor of the month" syndrome is rampant among professional reviewers

Constantly hail the next great new recording then 2-3 yrs from now all is forgotten while the true classics eventually rise to the top, not saying that Belder is not good but I am naturally skeptical.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on January 23, 2010, 05:07:19 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on January 23, 2010, 04:59:57 AM
I always take new reviews with a grain of salt..........."flavor of the month" syndrome is rampant among professional reviewers

Constantly hail the next great new recording then 2-3 yrs from now all is forgotten while the true classics eventually rise to the top, not saying that Belder is not good but I am naturally skeptical.

I have held this view for years.  I am only interested in having recordings that have passed the test of times or have the potential of meeting this goal in my collection.  There is rampant me-tooism out there and the syndrome is not limited only to classical music ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 23, 2010, 03:04:49 PM
I don't have an opinion on Belder's set. ARG's reviewer analyses many performance isssues in detail, so I suppose he's done his homework.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 23, 2010, 03:33:39 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 23, 2010, 05:07:19 AM
I have held this view for years.  I am only interested in having recordings that have passed the test of times or have the potential of meeting this goal in my collection. 

Really?  I'd rather have recordings that satisfy my tastes.  The "test of time" is too generalized, being based on some sort of consensus.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on January 24, 2010, 01:20:21 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 23, 2010, 03:33:39 PM
Really?  I'd rather have recordings that satisfy my tastes.  The "test of time" is too generalized, being based on some sort of consensus.
Me, too.  Those "test of time" folks tend to favor recordings made 70 or more years ago.  By the time they finally catch up and recognize the quality of many recordings made today and in recent decades, they'll be long dead!    ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on January 24, 2010, 02:01:20 AM
Quote from: Barak on January 22, 2010, 07:58:00 PM
In the current issue of American Record Guide, the recent Pieter Belder Brilliant Classics set was hailed as worthy to stand on the same footing as Dantone and Maasuki. I mean, Suzuki. Considering the price advantage, I think I'll go for it as a replacement to The Olde Verlet nad Moroney versions. Fresh blood, yeeaahh >:D ! Oups! ::)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5028421938929.jpg)

I had a look at jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-1-2/hnum/4887080) and listened to the samples of Belder's new recording. It sounds actually pretty good, gentlemen.... Though a comparison with Ottavio Dantone is out of order - totally different approach. (Dantone & Glen Wilson are my top rec. sofar, I'm not into Suzuki's barren, overly meticulous & micro-focused, "Zen"-like Bach). Based on these first impressions Belder's approach sounds to me very much in the mould of Belder's teacher Bob van Asperen and his teacher Gustav Leonhardt. Another chip of the old Dutchman's block, so to speak! :) Straight, rhythmically rigourous, strongly articlulated, no frills. On first hearing Belder does apply more flexibility than the old master, and more "colour" than Van Asperen, which are good things IMO.

I will eagerly await the undoubtedly more founded impressions of those here who decide to go for it. :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: 71 dB on January 24, 2010, 02:46:59 AM
I don't regret buying this one:
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on January 24, 2010, 02:54:34 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 24, 2010, 02:46:59 AM
I don't regret buying this one:

I did and parted with it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on January 24, 2010, 03:57:16 AM
Quote from: Que on January 24, 2010, 02:01:20 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5028421938929.jpg)

I had a look at jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-1-2/hnum/4887080) and listened to the samples of Belder's new recording. It sounds actually pretty good, gentlemen.... Though a comparison with Ottavio Dantone is out of order - totally different approach. (Dantone & Glen Wilson are my top rec. sofar, I'm not into Suzuki's barren, overly meticulous & micro-focused, "Zen"-like Bach). Based on these first impressions Belder's approach sounds to me very much in the mould of Belder's teacher Bob van Asperen and his teacher Gustav Leonhardt. Another chip of the old Dutchman's block, so to speak! :) Straight, rhythmically rigourous, strongly articlulated, no frills. On first hearing Belder does apply more flexibility than the old master, and more "colour" than Van Asperen, which are good things IMO.

I will eagerly await the undoubtedly more founded impressions of those here who decide to go for it. :)

Q

I have the version by van Asperen.  It is one of those that can stand the test of times IMO.  At the very least, you and I are on the same page.  Is the version by Leonhardt OOP?  I may have one book on LP but nothing on CD?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on January 24, 2010, 04:02:18 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 24, 2010, 03:57:16 AM
I have the version by van Asperen.  It is one of those that can stand the test of times IMO.  At the very least, you and I are on the same page.  Is the version by Leonhardt OOP?  I may have one book on LP but nothing on CD?

Leonhardt's recordings have been issued on CD, OOP but copies are still around. Undoubtedly scheduled for reissue one of these days.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411NZ9X9XGL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61XQBHJ6SEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on January 24, 2010, 05:05:43 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 24, 2010, 03:57:16 AM
I have the version by van Asperen.  It is one of those that can stand the test of times IMO.  At the very least, you and I are on the same page.  Is the version by Leonhardt OOP?  I may have one book on LP but nothing on CD?

I don't buy into this "test of time" bit.  If you lived in 1800 you would be claiming that Bach has not withstood the "test of time."   I know what I like, and although I don't let reviewers dictate my purchasing decisions, if I read a review by a good reviewer I can usually judge whether I will like it, test of time or no test of time.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on January 24, 2010, 05:13:15 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 24, 2010, 05:05:43 AM
I don't buy into this "test of time" bit.  If you lived in 1800 you would be claiming that Bach has not withstood the "test of time."   I know what I like, and although I don't let reviewers dictate my purchasing decisions, if I read a review by a good reviewer I can usually judge whether I will like it, test of time or no test of time.

My definition of test of time is not quite as long as you think.  I think it is necessary to separate recordings that are worth getting back to in a few years, as compared with those me-too recordings.  Many Bach keyboard works have been released over the past few years, often by pianists who have never before come near Bach.  It seems like having Bach keyboard works recorded these days has become a fashion statement for many artists. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on January 24, 2010, 06:08:32 AM
On the basis of Belder's Scarlatti sonata set which I own about 50% of I am not a motivated buyer of his WTC. He has a clean flexible but somewhat cautious style compared to Scott Ross complete set or CDs by Hantai, Staier etc, leaves some cards on the table if you will. You may think well that is exactly what I want for harpsicord Bach......perhaps but not for me, although I do think as Que indicates he could be more rythmic flexible compared to the old school Leonhardt or Van Asperen styles which is a good thing

Preferences
For harpsicord versions Hantai WTC I, Watchorn WTC I, and Wilson WTC I, II
For piano Feinberg WTC I, II and Gould WTC I, II
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 24, 2010, 06:16:09 AM
I don't need a new WTC, but one thing I notice is that recorded sound for harpsichord recordings has evolved substantially over the years. I used to have Ruzickova some 30 years ago, then Moroney, and now Verlet. the latter is quite good on all counts. But I'm not against having an update on both the interpretation and the sonic experience. Belder's set is issued by Brilliant, so it should be very affordable.

OTOH, Belder's complete Scarlatti sonatas is not on a par with some individual discs I have (both in terms of interpretation and sound). I think I'll sample before I decide.

QuoteMany Bach keyboard works have been released over the past few years, often by pianists who have never before come near Bach.  It seems like having Bach keyboard works recorded these days has become a fashion statement for many artists.
All important pianists play Bach by bits and pieces in their recitals. An English suite here, a Partita there, etc. But you don't make a carreer out of playing Bach only. They relish the chance to make records when asked. I don't see that as a fashion statement at all. It's a musical statement. Every artist worthy of the name wants to have a go at Bach's major works. Just like every soprano wants to try her hand at Violetta or Isolde.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 24, 2010, 06:38:03 AM
Well, I now have both books of the WTC w/ Peter Watchorn on the pedal harpsichord; so still in the market for a version on standard harpsichord.  I was just re-reading the review on Peter-Jan Belder's Brilliant release of these works (the price is certainly right!) in the American Record Guide (Jan-Feb 2010).

The reviewer is Rob Haskins - he also did a back-to-back writeup of Suzuki's WTC II; his top 3 choices are Suzuki, Dantone, & Belder in that order (w/ no mention of Glen Wilson); so the competition does deepen -  :D

I shall await the thoughts of some of our esteemed Bachians on their first-hand listening to the Belder set -  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on January 24, 2010, 06:49:32 AM
I am getting VERY curious about that Suzuki set.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 24, 2010, 08:04:05 AM
Quote from: premont on January 24, 2010, 02:54:34 AM
I did and parted with it.

I was very disappointed in Beausejour's Bk. 1: very mainstream, limited range of color and texture and a representation of Bach's music as quite moderate.  Further, bass response was thin, damaging the musical dialogue.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 24, 2010, 08:11:38 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 24, 2010, 06:38:03 AM
Well, I now have both books of the WTC w/ Peter Watchorn on the pedal harpsichord; so still in the market for a version on standard harpsichord.  I was just re-reading the review on Peter-Jan Belder's Brilliant release of these works (the price is certainly right!) in the American Record Guide (Jan-Feb 2010).

The reviewer is Rob Haskins - he also did a back-to-back writeup of Suzuki's WTC II; his top 3 choices are Suzuki, Dantone, & Belder in that order (w/ no mention of Glen Wilson); so the competition does deepen -  :D

I shall await the thoughts of some of our esteemed Bachians on their first-hand listening to the Belder set -  :)

I have much respect for Rob Haskins.  He's not a reviewer who plays a disc a couple of times and then makes definititive pronouncements.  He listens many times and always is questioning his own preconceptions.  A case in point is his review of Vartolo's Art of Fugue (Naxos) in the November/December ARG.  Those who read it will find Haskins a top-notch reviewer.

None of the above means that I will agree with Haskin's opinion of the Belder set, but an honest and thorough reviewer demands our attention.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 24, 2010, 08:14:42 AM
Quote from: George on January 24, 2010, 06:49:32 AM
I am getting VERY curious about that Suzuki set.

Me too: the word "Zen" -used by Q, although not in a favourable way- can be very compelling as a description.  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on January 24, 2010, 08:33:12 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 24, 2010, 08:14:42 AM
Me too: the word "Zen" -used by Q, although not in a favourable way- can be very compelling as a description.  :)
I almost commented on that, too, when first I saw it, wondering what the heck "zen" has to do with "barren, overly meticulous & micro-focused."  More unzenlike qualities are hard to imagine.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bunny on January 24, 2010, 08:57:18 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 24, 2010, 06:38:03 AM
Well, I now have both books of the WTC w/ Peter Watchorn on the pedal harpsichord; so still in the market for a version on standard harpsichord.  I was just re-reading the review on Peter-Jan Belder's Brilliant release of these works (the price is certainly right!) in the American Record Guide (Jan-Feb 2010).

The reviewer is Rob Haskins - he also did a back-to-back writeup of Suzuki's WTC II; his top 3 choices are Suzuki, Dantone, & Belder in that order (w/ no mention of Glen Wilson); so the competition does deepen -  :D

I shall await the thoughts of some of our esteemed Bachians on their first-hand listening to the Belder set -  :)

I'd go for the Dantone (which I already have) if I were you.  He is so baroque -- and I mean that in the best way: theatrical, ornamented, and never, ever, boring.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 24, 2010, 11:22:33 AM
Belder's Scarlatti is much like the examples I know of Beauséjour's playing: fluent and unobtrusive, always musical, but somewhat short on imagination and daring. The Lagacés (Mireille and Bernard) and Kenneth Gilbert are the grand old people of canadian organ and harpsichord playing , and unfortunately the defects I mention can all be traced back to their fastidious, tasteful but unimaginative music-making. Sometimes a playing tradition can do more harm than good... I'll take Scott Ross over Belder any day in Scarlatti - athough he, too, has been left behind by the younger generation of players.

For the piano version I go for Horszowski in book 1, and Feltsman in Book II. Vastly different approaches that complement each other well. Book II is quite different from Book I anyway.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on January 24, 2010, 11:43:07 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on January 24, 2010, 06:08:32 AM
On the basis of Belder's Scarlatti sonata set which I own about 50% of I am not a motivated buyer of his WTC. He has a clean flexible but somewhat cautious style compared to Scott Ross complete set or CDs by Hantai, Staier etc, leaves some cards on the table if you will. You may think well that is exactly what I want for harpsicord Bach......perhaps but not for me, although I do think as Que indicates he could be more rythmic flexible compared to the old school Leonhardt or Van Asperen styles which is a good thing
I do 100% agree with your assesment of Belder's Scarlatti, cautious & stiff/ "wooden". Scott Ross is my no. 1  8). And I wasn't enchanted by Belder's F. Couperin set, either....no mystery..no poetry! But, but: I do think his Soler absolutely rocks! :) So, it all depends on the match between performer & composer. I haven't tried his new Rameau or the Händel set.

That all being said, I've not been terribly keen on Van Asperen's Bach - though downright smitten by his Froberger! :o - or was won over by Leonhardt's WTC. Maybe Belder will trump his old masters, but I won't know before I try the set properly. Maybe I will. :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Clever Hans on January 24, 2010, 11:47:27 AM
The recorded sound of Glen Wilson's Zell copy is close to perfect.
If I had to recommend a first WTC, I would definitely choose his set because of the microphone placement and it's excitement and virtuosity.

Leonhardt sounds the most authentic and authoritative to me, whatever that means, but the recorded sound is not ideal. I wish he would do some more bach recordings, e.g. the partitas with repeats, before he leaves this earth. That Byrd selection for Alpha is great.

I think the Suzuki set can be just as rewarding, has a great sound, but may require more patience and somehow seems modern (due in part to BIS's production). Direct prelude and fugue comparisons with Gilbert, Leonhardt, and Wilson, among others, reveal Suzuki's insights on the interplay of voices. Sure, it's predictable given his conducting background and style, but it's nevertheless true.

Scott Ross's Scarlatti is just incredible on so many levels.

As for Asperen, it would appear, based on reviews of his Aeolus recordings, that he has further matured, although I haven't gotten around to buying those yet.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on January 24, 2010, 12:02:17 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 24, 2010, 08:14:42 AM
Me too: the word "Zen" -used by Q, although not in a favourable way- can be very compelling as a description.  :)

Indeed. The adjective has been used (in a favorable way) to describe Rudolf Serkin's playing.

I checked my usual places to see if I could download it and try it out before buying it, but unfortunately, no one seems to have it. However, the amazon samples didn't send me running to the checkout.  :-\ I think I'd prefer to get to know my two newest WTC (Tureck DG and Moroney HM) before seeking out more versions.   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on January 24, 2010, 12:09:27 PM
Quote from: George on January 24, 2010, 12:02:17 PM
Indeed. The adjective has been used (in a favorable way) to describe Rudolf Serkin's playing.

I checked my usual places to see if I could download it and try it out before buying it, but unfortunately, no one seems to have it. However, the amazon samples didn't send me running to the checkout.  :-\ I think I'd prefer to get to know my two newest WTC (Tureck DG and Moroney HM) before seeking out more versions.

I have the following Moroney set but really have not thought about getting his WTC set (with that weird hand?  ;D).  I have had the Tureck's set for a good number of months and that was a good purchase decision.  I doubt there are any versions other than the latest version by Angela Hewitt and the Leonhardt's set I want to own ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41G1E0CXKVL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 07:26:09 AM
My Gould copy sold on Amazon Marketplace.  Whew, that's a relief.   :D  I have replaced it with the Ashkenazy, which hasn't arrived yet but which I am looking forward to.  Also just received Hewitt take 2 for a very good price from that outrageous French website with the sale.   Actually, I noticed the package did not come from France.  It came from a Naxos warehouse at an address in Germany.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on February 18, 2010, 07:38:56 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 07:26:09 AM
My Gould copy sold on Amazon Marketplace.  Whew, that's a relief.   :D  I have replaced it with the Ashkenazy, which hasn't arrived yet but which I am looking forward to.  Also just received Hewitt take 2 for a very good price from that outrageous French website with the sale.   Actually, I noticed the package did not come from France.  It came from a Naxos warehouse at an address in Germany.

Are you sure you don't have room for either of Gould's Goldberg Variations in your collection?

Even if it is not your favorite version good to keep as a reference since it will always be referred to in any Goldberg discussion........
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on February 18, 2010, 07:44:27 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 07:26:09 AM
My Gould copy sold on Amazon Marketplace.  Whew, that's a relief.   :D  I have replaced it with the Ashkenazy, which hasn't arrived yet but which I am looking forward to.  Also just received Hewitt take 2 for a very good price from that outrageous French website with the sale.   Actually, I noticed the package did not come from France.  It came from a Naxos warehouse at an address in Germany.
Even though our tastes diverge as often as not, I am interested to hear your impressions of Hewitt II.

"Outrageous French website with the sale?"
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 18, 2010, 07:52:15 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 18, 2010, 07:38:56 AM

Are you sure you don't have room for either of Gould's Goldberg Variations in your collection?

Even if it is not your favorite version good to keep as a reference since it will always be referred to in any Goldberg discussion........

Which of them? The first or the second one?  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 07:59:00 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 18, 2010, 07:44:27 AM
Even though our tastes diverge as often as not, I am interested to hear your impressions of Hewitt II.

"Outrageous French website with the sale?"

http://classique.abeillemusique.com/

You picked the wrong week to stay away from GMG.  Sale is over, unfortunately.  I got Hewitt take 2 (Bk I and II), and the complete Chopin by Ohlsson on Hyperion for 39 Euros, including about 7 Euros for shipping to the US.  Going by list price, that should be $250.   The deals Brilliant Classics were particularly outrageous, but I resisted.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on February 18, 2010, 09:34:09 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 18, 2010, 07:38:56 AM

Are you sure you don't have room for either of Gould's Goldberg Variations in your collection?

Even if it is not your favorite version good to keep as a reference since it will always be referred to in any Goldberg discussion........

Sorry forgot this is the WTC thread, but same logic applies.........every collection should have Gould WTC if only for reference purposes.

About Angela Hewitt WTC version II
As said earlier here they are similar to her WTC version I no need to really have both, if I could only keep one it would be her WTC I despite the reasons given in her booklet why she feels WTC version II are even better after years of performances and the experience gained
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 10:06:20 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 18, 2010, 09:34:09 AMSorry forgot this is the WTC thread, but same logic applies.........every collection should have Gould WTC if only for reference purposes.

About Angela Hewitt WTC II
As said earlier here they are similar to her WTC I no need to really have both, if I could only keep one it would be her WTC I despite the reasons given in her booklet why she feels WTC II are even better after years of performances and the experience gained

I had the same impression about Hewitt's WTCs, except with the sale it was so cheap I can sell whichever I like least and come out with no money lost, or perhaps a modest profit.

Back to Gould, I don't generally keep recordings "for reference."  I'm sure that if I live to be 1000 years old I will never want to listen to the Gould recording again.  It simply repulsed me from every point of view.  The artificial-sounding engineering grated on my nerves, the humming, the overly mechanical, staccato articulation of every note.  The last straw was when I rented some opera DVD which had a preview of a film about Glenn Gould.  Aside from the social awkwardness, his comments about music didn't leave me interested in any "insights" that he might have.  Too many alternatives to have these recordings taking up space on my shelves.  (In retrospect, I should have ripped the discs to mp3 files before sending it off, just to remind myself never to be tempted to buy it again.  :D)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on February 18, 2010, 10:59:31 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 10:06:20 AM
I had the same impression about Hewitt's WTCs, except with the sale it was so cheap I can sell whichever I like least and come out with no money lost, or perhaps a modest profit.

Back to Gould, I don't generally keep recordings "for reference." I'm sure that if I live to be 1000 years old I will never want to listen to the Gould recording again.  It simply repulsed me from every point of view.  The artificial-sounding engineering grated on my nerves, the humming, the overly mechanical, staccato articulation of every note.  The last straw was when I rented some opera DVD which had a preview of a film about Glenn Gould.  Aside from the social awkwardness, his comments about music didn't leave me interested in any "insights" that he might have.  Too many alternatives to have these recordings taking up space on my shelves.  (In retrospect, I should have ripped the discs to mp3 files before sending it off, just to remind myself never to be tempted to buy it again.  :D )

I fully recoginze that Gould WTC  is a love/hate type performance.......not much middle ground.
Plus the humming can be very distracting compared to other artists

I think it is a good thing to have artists push the envelope from time to time, make you reconsider what is possible
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 11:06:51 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 18, 2010, 10:59:31 AMI think it is a good thing to have artists push the envelope from time to time, make you reconsider what is possible

I completely agree about pushing the envelope.  I will benefit by listening to pianists who leaned something from Gould, without actually being mentally ill themselves.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 18, 2010, 11:12:59 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 10:06:20 AM
Back to Gould, I don't generally keep recordings "for reference."  I'm sure that if I live to be 1000 years old I will never want to listen to the Gould recording again.  It simply repulsed me from every point of view. 

That's a reaction to Gould that I can't comprehend.  However, I also don't keep recordings around for reference; if I think they suck, they're gone (not worth the space they take up).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on February 18, 2010, 04:36:36 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 10:06:20 AM

Back to Gould, I don't generally keep recordings "for reference."  I'm sure that if I live to be 1000 years old I will never want to listen to the Gould recording again.  It simply repulsed me from every point of view.  The artificial-sounding engineering grated on my nerves, the humming, the overly mechanical, staccato articulation of every note.  The last straw was when I rented some opera DVD which had a preview of a film about Glenn Gould.  Aside from the social awkwardness, his comments about music didn't leave me interested in any "insights" that he might have.  Too many alternatives to have these recordings taking up space on my shelves.  (In retrospect, I should have ripped the discs to mp3 files before sending it off, just to remind myself never to be tempted to buy it again.  :D)

Well,  there's no doubt about where you stand on Gould!
I have most of his Bach recordings, and listen to them with pleasure.  I think there are several better recordings of the Goldbergs since his original version appeared--fifty five years is a very long time in the recording business--but there are still things worth hearing in his performances.  I have two of his non Bach recordings:  Renaissance keyboard works by Byrd and others, and the Hindemith piano sonatas.  The latter does not impress me, but I'm inclined to suspect the fault there lies with Hindemith, not Gould.

I think the trailer you saw was highly edited, and meant to emphasize his eccentricities.  He did in fact have more than a few interesting things to say about music; I've read a book containing some of his essays (some of them originally liner notes for his albums), and they were all high quality writing.  (IIRC, the book was called The Glenn Gould Reader.)  If you come across them,  they make worthwhile reading no matter what you think of his actual recordings.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Holden on February 18, 2010, 11:46:30 PM
I've read some interesting reviews about this

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516Xcs7v26L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

The short excerpts provided don't really give an idea of the structure of the works. Has anyone heard this who can comment?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 19, 2010, 06:25:53 AM
Quote from: Holden on February 18, 2010, 11:46:30 PM
I've read some interesting reviews about this

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516Xcs7v26L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

The short excerpts provided don't really give an idea of the structure of the works. Has anyone heard this who can comment?

Holden - can't help but will be interested in comments - excellent review on his website HERE (http://www.rogerwoodward.com/) by Jed Distler; also, a 5* Amazon USA Review (http://www.amazon.com/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Well-Tempered-Complete/dp/B002QB4AC0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1266592558&sr=1-1) mentions a 'pocket score' included - not sure what that may mean, but I would be curious as to how this offering is packaged?   :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 19, 2010, 07:58:26 AM
Quote from: Holden on February 18, 2010, 11:46:30 PM
I've read some interesting reviews about this

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516Xcs7v26L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

The short excerpts provided don't really give an idea of the structure of the works. Has anyone heard this who can comment?

I'm very familiar with the set and consider it exceptional, although not compelling in every prelude and fugue.  Generally, Woodward offers very serious interpretations with some "lift" lacking in the faster pieces.  Therefore, his best performances are of the slower pieces where despair and regret are prominent such as the Fugue in F minor from Bk. 1 and Prelude in C sharp minor from Bk. 2. 

Woodward's counterpoint is wonderful and conversational patterns illuminating.  I also love his strong articulation; when he departs from this strength, the performances are not outstanding.

I've read the linked reviews that Dave provided and find them to be the stuff of promotion, such as the nonsense of some kind of significance that Woodward records the set at the same age that Bach died.

I first became familiar with Woodward's Bach through another Celestial Harmonies disc containing a French Suite, Partita and Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue.  I love that disc and this new set as well.

I can't report on the packaging, because I have been listening to the entire set on the Naxos Music Library.  I notice that the cost of the physical product is about $90.  That's quite steep, but I do think the set well worth it.

As for comparisons, Tureck's set still remains my no. 1 pick.  However, Woodward stands tall next to Richter, Gould, Gulda, Vieru, Sheppard, Crossland, Schepkin and Fellner.  He's also more rewarding than Schiff and Hewitt.

Just one more thing.  I remember that the MusicWeb reviewer was not very complimentary about the single disc I mentioned above; he felt that the readings were overly romanticized and not conducive to the dancing nature of the works.  I disagree.  The romanticism is not "over the top", and Woodward's supreme dialogue easily overcomes any lack of the "traditional" dance element.

Another edit.  When I first read the Amazon link from Dave, I didn't notice the David Cates review.  I believe that he's the same David Cates who recorded the French Suites on Music & Arts; that set is my favorite.  I put a lot of faith in what Cates has to say.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Clever Hans on February 19, 2010, 08:40:26 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 19, 2010, 07:58:26 AM
As for comparisons, Tureck's set still remains my no. 1 pick.

What are your feelings regarding her DG vs BBC recordings? ,
Personally, I've been considering buying the Aldwell Book I mp3s because the samples are so good. It's utterly ridiculous that Nonesuch has II in CD form but not I, especially of an artist who died pretty recently. Maybe if I listen to the mp3s enough I'll save up the $200 necessary for the price gougers, and I can have lossless. Why can't everyone be like Linn?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 19, 2010, 09:05:38 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on February 19, 2010, 08:40:26 AM
What are your feelings regarding her DG vs BBC recordings? ,
Personally, I've been considering buying the Aldwell Book I mp3s because the samples are so good. It's utterly ridiculous that Nonesuch has II in CD form but not I, especially of an artist who died pretty recently. Maybe if I listen to the mp3s enough I'll save up the $200 necessary for the price gougers, and I can have lossless. Why can't everyone be like Linn?

I have both Tureck sets and find the DG a more affectionate and warmer performance; the BBC is rather clinical.  However, I love both of them.

As for Aldwell, I acquired both books when they were initially released many years ago.  Excellent performances.  If you'd like a CD-R of either or both books, just let me know.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Clever Hans on February 19, 2010, 09:23:10 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 19, 2010, 09:05:38 AM
I have both Tureck sets and find the DG a more affectionate and warmer performance; the BBC is rather clinical.  However, I love both of them.

As for Aldwell, I acquired both books when they were initially released many years ago.  Excellent performances.  If you'd like a CD-R of either or both books, just let me know.

Ah, that's good to know. I recently picked up her DG set, and it's got tons of personality. Thank you for your kind offer of Aldwell.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 20, 2010, 01:54:43 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 19, 2010, 07:58:26 AM
Woodward's counterpoint is wonderful and conversational patterns illuminating.  I also love his strong articulation; when he departs from this strength, the performances are not outstanding.

I can't report on the packaging, because I have been listening to the entire set on the Naxos Music Library.  I notice that the cost of the physical product is about $90.  That's quite steep, but I do think the set well worth it.

As for comparisons, Tureck's set still remains my no. 1 pick. Sheppard, Crossland, ....

Another edit.  When I first read the Amazon link from Dave, I didn't notice the David Cates review.  I believe that he's the same David Cates who recorded the French Suites on Music & Arts; that set is my favorite.  I put a lot of faith in what Cates has to say.

Don - that Woodward 'combined' offering interests me - being offered at about $44 at MDT (shipping would be cheap w/ a good sized order) - now I have Crossland & Sheppard Bk. 1 (his Bk. 2 seems to have received a lesser enthusiastic reception?) - so if I want a couple 'piano' versions of the WTC, should I just pick up Sheppard Bk. 2 or go w/ the Woodward 5-disc set purchased across the pond?  BTW - a little reluctant to consider Tureck because of the age & sonics of the recordings?  So, how is that price quoted above?  :D  Dave
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 20, 2010, 06:32:07 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 20, 2010, 01:54:43 PM
Don - that Woodward 'combined' offering interests me - being offered at about $44 at MDT (shipping would be cheap w/ a good sized order) - now I have Crossland & Sheppard Bk. 1 (his Bk. 2 seems to have received a lesser enthusiastic reception?) - so if I want a couple 'piano' versions of the WTC, should I just pick up Sheppard Bk. 2 or go w/ the Woodward 5-disc set purchased across the pond?  BTW - a little reluctant to consider Tureck because of the age & sonics of the recordings?  So, how is that price quoted above?  :D  Dave

That's a great price.

Concerning the Sheppard, I remember a review, likely in Fanfare, that favored his Bk. 1 over 2.  I also recall a review favoring Bk. 2.  Personally, I think both are exceptional.

It's a little amusing that you're reluctant to acquire the Tureck set, because I'd be willing to give up all my other WTCs if that's what it took to keep the Tureck.  It's the most treasured recording in my entire collection, all composers included.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on February 20, 2010, 06:41:54 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 20, 2010, 06:32:07 PM
It's a little amusing that you're reluctant to acquire the Tureck set, because I'd be willing to give up all my other WTCs if that's what it took to keep the Tureck.  It's the most treasured recording in my entire collection, all composers included.

Not to mention the fact that the sonics are fine.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 20, 2010, 07:07:40 PM
Quote from: George on February 20, 2010, 06:41:54 PM
Not to mention the fact that the sonics are fine.

Agree.  If I can deal with the WTC I & II by Edwin Fischer reconstructed/remastered by MOT, then the SQ of Tureck's WTC on DG is actually quite good IMO ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 20, 2010, 09:32:19 PM
Quote from: James on February 20, 2010, 07:34:17 PM
This Scarpia character is just your stereotypical musical ignoramus that's all.

Gould on the other hand was a musical genius.

You keep talking like that, and Scarpia will zap you with the FUBAR II. ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Valentino on February 21, 2010, 12:57:41 AM
My new favourite Book I:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_umVPctM9AqI/SuJBm0Qpl1I/AAAAAAAABk4/VDHlwFIILnA/s320/bach_pollini.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2010, 04:09:27 AM
Quote from: Valentino on February 21, 2010, 12:57:41 AM
My new favourite Book I:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_umVPctM9AqI/SuJBm0Qpl1I/AAAAAAAABk4/VDHlwFIILnA/s320/bach_pollini.jpg)

Val,   Your post is always interesting to me since you probably have the most leading-edge sound system - all digital - among all the folks on this forum.  There is much I can learn from you when I decide to go digital whole hog ...    ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on February 21, 2010, 05:39:22 AM
Quote from: Valentino on February 21, 2010, 12:57:41 AM
My new favourite Book I:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_umVPctM9AqI/SuJBm0Qpl1I/AAAAAAAABk4/VDHlwFIILnA/s320/bach_pollini.jpg)

Anything more specific you can say about it?  What is your second favorite?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Valentino on February 21, 2010, 06:58:55 AM
I like Andras Schiff, and I prefer his to Hewitt's first. I find Ashkenazy boring.
Then along comes Pollini blows the cowwebs away. Modernism suits Bach.

(The main difference to my sound system to most others is that the speakers are dynamic dipoles. Not many of those around. And they are active. Even fewer. And they have software crossovers. Tres Avant Garde, oui.)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 21, 2010, 08:49:33 AM
Quote from: Valentino on February 21, 2010, 06:58:55 AM
I like Andras Schiff, and I prefer his to Hewitt's first. I find Ashkenazy boring.
Then along comes Pollini blows the cowwebs away. Modernism suits Bach.

I very much enjoy the Pollini set and especially like that he delves deeply into Bach's dark side, considering the common complaint that Pollini's a rather cold pianist.

However, I don't know what you mean by "modernism"; could you explain?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 21, 2010, 09:48:34 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 21, 2010, 08:49:33 AM
I very much enjoy the Pollini set and especially like that he delves deeply into Bach's dark side, considering the common complaint that Pollini's a rather cold pianist.

However, I don't know what you mean by "modernism"; could you explain?

Good question.

And while we're at it -- maybe you could say which are the bits where you hear him delve deeply. You've got me thinking.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on February 21, 2010, 10:06:11 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 21, 2010, 08:49:33 AM
I very much enjoy the Pollini set and especially like that he delves deeply into Bach's dark side, considering the common complaint that Pollini's a rather cold pianist.

However, I don't know what you mean by "modernism"; could you explain?

Interesting.  I seemed not particularly remarkable in the 30 second excepts, but clearly that is no way to appreciate whether a performance delves deeply.  I'm getting intrigued again. 

As far a Pollini being cold, I think that was an issue with his early performances.  In more recent recordings there seems to be less emphasis on technical purity, and more on beauty of sound and creating the correct atmosphere.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 21, 2010, 04:52:48 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 21, 2010, 09:48:34 AM
Good question.

And while we're at it -- maybe you could say which are the bits where you hear him delve deeply. You've got me thinking.

Check out Pollini's Prelude in C sharp minor - very bleak and emotionally piercing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 04, 2010, 09:03:19 AM
I've been listening a few more times to the Pollini WTC I.  Haven't reached a final opinion, if there is such a thing, but the performances seem quite mainstream to me with plenty of energy and excitement in the faster pieces and sufficient angst in the darker preludes and fugues.  It's definitely a worthy piano version with a slight chance of being outstanding.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 04, 2010, 09:06:52 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 04, 2010, 09:03:19 AM
I've been listening a few more times to the Pollini WTC I.  Haven't reached a final opinion, if there is such a thing, but the performances seem quite mainstream to me with plenty of energy and excitement in the faster pieces and sufficient angst in the darker preludes and fugues.  It's definitely a worthy piano version with a slight chance of being outstanding.

Sounds interesting.  I will spring for it when and if WTC II is released.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 04, 2010, 09:41:46 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 04, 2010, 09:06:52 AM
Sounds interesting.  I will spring for it when and if WTC II is released.

I assume your decision is based on a box set being released having price advantages; you are a patient man.  When I want something, I immediately shoot for it.  Delayed gratification is not in my nature.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 04, 2010, 09:51:37 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 04, 2010, 09:41:46 AM
I assume your decision is based on a box set being released having price advantages; you are a patient man.  When I want something, I immediately shoot for it.  Delayed gratification is not in my nature.

Actually, my main motivation is that I like Bk II better than Bk I.  Having Bk I without Bk II would be annoying.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Franco on March 04, 2010, 09:51:56 AM
I got Book I just as it came out and will get Book II as soon as it is out as well.

I am a big fan of Pollini and had been awaiting this recording ever since I heard it was in the works.  It has quickly become one of my favorite recordings of the WTC.  Pollini is known for his strong sense of line, prodigious technique and restrained emotionalism - these are all traits which serve Bach well, and the sound of the recording is excellent.

Very highly recommended.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 04, 2010, 09:59:34 AM
Quote from: Franco on March 04, 2010, 09:51:56 AM
I got Book I just as it came out and will get Book II as soon as it is out as well.

I am a big fan of Pollini and had been awaiting this recording ever since I heard it was in the works.  It has quickly become one of my favorite recordings of the WTC.  Pollini is known for his strong sense of line, prodigious technique and restrained emotionalism - these are all traits which serve Bach well, and the sound of the recording is excellent.

Very highly recommended.

Are you implying that DG has made it known that Bk II is in the works?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Franco on March 04, 2010, 10:24:59 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 04, 2010, 09:59:34 AM
Are you implying that DG has made it known that Bk II is in the works?

No, I have not heard that - I may be anticipating something not actually in the works.  It took him long enough to get Bk. I out, who knows if he will ever get around to Bk. II - although I am hoping it follows along soon.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 04, 2010, 10:29:59 AM
Quote from: Franco on March 04, 2010, 10:24:59 AM
No, I have not heard that - I may be anticipating something not actually in the works.  It took him long enough to get Bk. I out, who knows if he will ever get around to Bk. II - although I am hoping it follows along soon.

Something to keep in mind is that he hasn't finished the complete Beethoven sonatas yet, IIRC. And that project (though not official) was started thirty some-odd years ago.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on March 04, 2010, 12:48:27 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 21, 2010, 04:09:27 AM
Val,   Your post is always interesting to me since you probably have the most leading-edge sound system - all digital - among all the folks on this forum.  There is much I can learn from you when I decide to go digital whole hog ...    ;D
All digital?  You mean Valentino (not Val, he's a different member) not only lacks analog sources, but lacks digital-to-analog conversion as well?  What kind of loudspeakers does he have?  And how do they convert the 1s and 0s to sound waves (which are, after all, analog)? 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 04, 2010, 01:27:54 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 04, 2010, 12:48:27 PM
All digital?  You mean Valentino (not Val, he's a different member) not only lacks analog sources, but lacks digital-to-analog conversion as well?  What kind of loudspeakers does he have?  And how do they convert the 1s and 0s to sound waves (which are, after all, analog)?

All digital, that's the way to go!


  367320: df ff 83 fe be ff 67 fe ae ff 61 fe a2 ff 77 fe 9f ff 62 fe
  367340: a2 ff 3b fe 93 ff 39 fe 7d ff 45 fe 6a ff 49 fe 48 ff 41 fe
  367360: 32 ff 3e fe 11 ff 3a fe  1 ff 2c fe ee fe 1a fe ea fe 11 fe
  367380: f6 fe 12 fe  e ff 10 fe 33 ff 1d fe 5b ff 32 fe 64 ff 2b fe
  367400: 7e ff 20 fe 99 ff 14 fe a8 ff 18 fe b0 ff  c fe b0 ff  8 fe
  367420: a9 ff  2 fe ad ff 10 fe b9 ff 3a fe c4 ff 50 fe da ff 5e fe
  367440: ea ff 77 fe f6 ff 98 fe 10  0 bc fe 29  0 f5 fe 2d  0 3e ff
  367460: 3c  0 93 ff 3d  0 e0 ff 49  0  e  0 46  0 37  0 46  0 4a  0
  367480: 45  0 60  0 4c  0 86  0 4f  0 ae  0 67  0 d8  0 71  0 d4  0
  367500: 77  0 be  0 8c  0 b2  0 93  0 b1  0 99  0 90  0 a6  0 95  0
  367520: 9f  0 86  0 a3  0 78  0 9b  0 69  0 95  0 54  0 98  0 56  0
  367540: 97  0 4c  0 97  0 35  0 8f  0 47  0 85  0 52  0 64  0 4f  0
  367560: 48  0 55  0 27  0 57  0  f  0 6a  0 f5 ff 6e  0 d3 ff 70  0
  367580: c1 ff 6d  0 b3 ff 65  0 b1 ff 63  0 ba ff 66  0 b3 ff 5a  0
  367600: bd ff 54  0 c3 ff 48  0 cb ff 2a  0 dd ff 18  0 f3 ff 14  0
  367620: f9 ff  b  0  0  0 18  0  b  0  a  0 26  0  0  0 41  0  3  0
  367640: 51  0  4  0 59  0 f5 ff 5d  0 ed ff 53  0 d9 ff 40  0 b7 ff
  367660: 27  0 9c ff  d  0 90 ff f9 ff 76 ff e0 ff 41 ff d7 ff 33 ff
  367680: cd ff 2c ff bd ff 23 ff aa ff fe fe 9d ff e4 fe 95 ff e4 fe
  367700: 8b ff ca fe 93 ff cd fe 88 ff d9 fe 80 ff  0 ff 7f ff  4 ff
  367720: 77 ff  5 ff 77 ff 2b ff 70 ff 3a ff 7f ff 55 ff 8e ff 7b ff
  367740: 97 ff a5 ff 9d ff ad ff b4 ff b8 ff b8 ff c3 ff b5 ff c5 ff



exquisite!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 05, 2010, 01:03:05 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 04, 2010, 09:41:46 AM
I assume your decision is based on a box set being released having price advantages; you are a patient man.  When I want something, I immediately shoot for it.  Delayed gratification is not in my nature.

Ok, you've brow-beat me into ordering the Pollini recording.  I hope you're satisfied.   >:D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 05, 2010, 01:11:33 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 05, 2010, 01:03:05 PM
Ok, you've brow-beat me into ordering the Pollini recording.  I hope you're satisfied.   >:D

And I hope you will be satisfied with your purchase.   8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on March 05, 2010, 01:27:41 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 04, 2010, 01:27:54 PM
All digital, that's the way to go!


  367320: df ff 83 fe be ff 67 fe ae ff 61 fe a2 ff 77 fe 9f ff 62 fe
  367340: a2 ff 3b fe 93 ff 39 fe 7d ff 45 fe 6a ff 49 fe 48 ff 41 fe
  367360: 32 ff 3e fe 11 ff 3a fe  1 ff 2c fe ee fe 1a fe ea fe 11 fe
  367380: f6 fe 12 fe  e ff 10 fe 33 ff 1d fe 5b ff 32 fe 64 ff 2b fe
  367400: 7e ff 20 fe 99 ff 14 fe a8 ff 18 fe b0 ff  c fe b0 ff  8 fe
  367420: a9 ff  2 fe ad ff 10 fe b9 ff 3a fe c4 ff 50 fe da ff 5e fe
  367440: ea ff 77 fe f6 ff 98 fe 10  0 bc fe 29  0 f5 fe 2d  0 3e ff
  367460: 3c  0 93 ff 3d  0 e0 ff 49  0  e  0 46  0 37  0 46  0 4a  0
  367480: 45  0 60  0 4c  0 86  0 4f  0 ae  0 67  0 d8  0 71  0 d4  0
  367500: 77  0 be  0 8c  0 b2  0 93  0 b1  0 99  0 90  0 a6  0 95  0
  367520: 9f  0 86  0 a3  0 78  0 9b  0 69  0 95  0 54  0 98  0 56  0
  367540: 97  0 4c  0 97  0 35  0 8f  0 47  0 85  0 52  0 64  0 4f  0
  367560: 48  0 55  0 27  0 57  0  f  0 6a  0 f5 ff 6e  0 d3 ff 70  0
  367580: c1 ff 6d  0 b3 ff 65  0 b1 ff 63  0 ba ff 66  0 b3 ff 5a  0
  367600: bd ff 54  0 c3 ff 48  0 cb ff 2a  0 dd ff 18  0 f3 ff 14  0
  367620: f9 ff  b  0  0  0 18  0  b  0  a  0 26  0  0  0 41  0  3  0
  367640: 51  0  4  0 59  0 f5 ff 5d  0 ed ff 53  0 d9 ff 40  0 b7 ff
  367660: 27  0 9c ff  d  0 90 ff f9 ff 76 ff e0 ff 41 ff d7 ff 33 ff
  367680: cd ff 2c ff bd ff 23 ff aa ff fe fe 9d ff e4 fe 95 ff e4 fe
  367700: 8b ff ca fe 93 ff cd fe 88 ff d9 fe 80 ff  0 ff 7f ff  4 ff
  367720: 77 ff  5 ff 77 ff 2b ff 70 ff 3a ff 7f ff 55 ff 8e ff 7b ff
  367740: 97 ff a5 ff 9d ff ad ff b4 ff b8 ff b8 ff c3 ff b5 ff c5 ff



exquisite!
;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 05, 2010, 03:38:41 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 04, 2010, 09:41:46 AM
I assume your decision is based on a box set being released having price advantages; you are a patient man.  When I want something, I immediately shoot for it.  Delayed gratification is not in my nature.

Well, some complete WTC sets on piano seem to have been lost in the shuffle here?  :-\  Jill Crossland on Signum for $30 (4-discs) from MDT 'across the pond' - a previous recommendation from Don (and excellent reviews) - I've owned this set for a while - hard to beat the quality and price?

Also, Robert Woodward - 5CD set for $44 from MDT - excellent review on Amazon by David Cates (who recorded Bach's 'French Suites' on harpsichord); and a Gramophone Editor's Choice for Feb 2010 - I could easily acquired another piano version of these works and this set has me interested!  :D

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/SIGCD136.jpg)  (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/199222.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 05, 2010, 04:13:55 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 05, 2010, 03:38:41 PM
Well, some complete WTC sets on piano seem to have been lost in the shuffle here?  :-\  Jill Crossland on Signum for $30 (4-discs) from MDT 'across the pond' - a previous recommendation from Don (and excellent reviews) - I've owned this set for a while - hard to beat the quality and price?

Also, Robert Woodward - 5CD set for $44 from MDT - excellent review on Amazon by David Cates (who recorded Bach's 'French Suites' on harpsichord); and a Gramophone Editor's Choice for Feb 2010 - I could easily acquired another piano version of these works and this set has me interested!  :D

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/SIGCD136.jpg)  (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/199222.jpg)

Am already holding Crossland.  That the other manages to stretch it to 5 discs made me suspect that something is wrong, foaming at the mouth reviews or no foaming at the mouth reviews.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 05, 2010, 04:57:08 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 05, 2010, 04:13:55 PM
Am already holding Crossland.  That the other manages to stretch it to 5 discs made me suspect that something is wrong, foaming at the mouth reviews or no foaming at the mouth reviews.

Scarpia - not to worry about the 5-discs - apparently Bk. 2 can extend to 3 discs - I own the Peter Watchorn offerings on Omnia Musica of the WTC books on the pedal harpsichord - Bk. 1 is 2 discs, while Bk.2 is on 3 discs - explanations are given in the liner notes, so not a reason to avoid this offering by Woodward, if interested?  Dave  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachWTC1Watchorn/535883471_rUMj9-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachWTCIIWatchornA/758744700_Cj5Ky-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 05, 2010, 05:10:51 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 05, 2010, 04:13:55 PM
Am already holding Crossland.  That the other manages to stretch it to 5 discs made me suspect that something is wrong, foaming at the mouth reviews or no foaming at the mouth reviews.

No, there's no reason to be skeptical.  I've been listening to the Woodward, and it's excellent.  Three discs are used for Bk. 2, but the total playing time for Bk. 2 is about 157 minutes.  So, in theory, it could have fit on two discs.
For reference purposes, the Crossland and Suzuki Bk. 2's also take about 157 minutes. 

In a way, I hate bringing up this total time stuff.  It's not how fast or slow the music is played, but what the artist does with the selected tempos.  Woodward does just fine.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 05, 2010, 05:34:11 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 05, 2010, 05:10:51 PM
No, there's no reason to be skeptical.  I've been listening to the Woodward, and it's excellent.  Three discs are used for Bk. 2, but the total playing time for Bk. 2 is about 157 minutes.  So, in theory, it could have fit on two discs.
For reference purposes, the Crossland and Suzuki Bk. 2's also take about 157 minutes. 

In a way, I hate bringing up this total time stuff.  It's not how fast or slow the music is played, but what the artist does with the selected tempos.  Woodward does just fine.

Just for the record, the Watchorn Bk. 2 w/ 3 discs is 186 minutes - I've not done any analysis of why Peter wants to add an apparent 30 minutes to this book - maybe others can help; but as Don has already stated, the 'bottom line' is not the length of performing these works but the quality of the perfomances -  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 05, 2010, 05:49:29 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 05, 2010, 01:03:05 PM
Ok, you've brow-beat me into ordering the Pollini recording.  I hope you're satisfied.   >:D

Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm not really satisfied.  I just did some comparison between Pollini and Woodward; Woodward is way better. ;D

I'm not kidding.  Woodward is a thinking person's version, and I know you do a lot of thinking.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 05, 2010, 06:27:00 PM
What do you think of this one, Don (and others)?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515LcQWTRFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 05, 2010, 09:34:45 PM
Quote from: George on March 05, 2010, 06:27:00 PM
What do you think of this one, Don (and others)?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515LcQWTRFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I've had this set for many years and just gave it a listen so I could give you a current opinion.  That opinion is highly favorable; I enjoyed it more than ever before.  My sole complaint is that Horszowski isn't exactly a virtuoso.  He had some technical problems in a few of the faster pieces such as the Fugue in E flat major, but the artistry is top-notch.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Valentino on March 05, 2010, 10:46:59 PM
To me Pollini's modernity is his unique ability to make the music he plays sound less interpreted than most other pianists. Of course he interprets, but I do think his way brings me closer to the music than most other pianists do.


Quote from: DavidRoss on March 04, 2010, 12:48:27 PM
All digital?  You mean Valentino (not Val, he's a different member) not only lacks analog sources, but lacks digital-to-analog conversion as well?  What kind of loudspeakers does he have?  And how do they convert the 1s and 0s to sound waves (which are, after all, analog)? 
I do have a record player. I digitize it with a USB soundcard and do RIAA conversion (and four way crossover) on a 32 bit FP format with Waves in a little laptop. I use the Logitech Squeezebox and -server for CD and downloads. 8 DACs  feed class D amplifiers in the speakers which are dynamic dipoles with closed box subwoofers coming in below 40 Hz.
There's a thread about it here (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/160554-inspired-linkwitz-presentation-dipole-speaker-system.html).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on March 06, 2010, 01:08:53 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 21, 2010, 04:09:27 AMVal,   Your post is always interesting to me since you probably have the most leading-edge sound system - all digital - among all the folks on this forum.  There is much I can learn from you when I decide to go digital whole hog ...    ;D
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 04, 2010, 12:48:27 PMAll digital?  You mean Valentino (not Val, he's a different member) not only lacks analog sources, but lacks digital-to-analog conversion as well?  What kind of loudspeakers does he have?  And how do they convert the 1s and 0s to sound waves (which are, after all, analog)?
Quote from: Valentino on March 05, 2010, 10:46:59 PMI do have a record player. I digitize it with a USB soundcard and do RIAA conversion (and four way crossover) on a 32 bit FP format with Waves in a little laptop. I use the Logitech Squeezebox and -server for CD and downloads. 8 DACs  feed class D amplifiers in the speakers which are dynamic dipoles with closed box subwoofers coming in below 40 Hz.
There's a thread about it here (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/160554-inspired-linkwitz-presentation-dipole-speaker-system.html).
Ah, I see.  Not an "all digital" system at all (whatever that means), but a relatively conventional high-end system that includes a Squeezebox and your serious hobbyist DIY di-pole loudspeakers.  Looks like a nice setup.  I trust it provides you many hours of pleasure.  8)

It seems odd to convert the output from your record player from analog to digital and then back again before feeding your amps.  I presume you're doing this for the sake of converting treasured recordings on LP to a format your digital server can handle and are willing to accept some degradation of sound quality for the sake of convenience...?

The most pressing questions, of course--at least for the sake of this thread--are: "How does Bach's WTC sound through this system? And which great recordings of the WTC do you prefer?"
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Valentino on March 06, 2010, 04:21:59 AM
If my system is conventional I do wonder how an unconventional system looks.  0:)
Since my crossovers are digital I have to digitize the gramophone input. No way around that.  One could always make a discussion what sounds best: A traditional analog RIAA amplifier+ADC or a microphone amplifier+ADC+digital RIAA EQ, but I guess it quickly would dgrade to the normal religious audiophile trench war.

The WTC: I need more recordings. Further up I've said something about the ones I know well.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 06, 2010, 04:26:51 AM
Quote from: Valentino on March 05, 2010, 10:46:59 PM

I do have a record player. I digitize it with a USB soundcard and do RIAA conversion (and four way crossover) on a 32 bit FP format with Waves in a little laptop. I use the Logitech Squeezebox and -server for CD and downloads. 8 DACs  feed class D amplifiers in the speakers which are dynamic dipoles with closed box subwoofers coming in below 40 Hz.
There's a thread about it here (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/160554-inspired-linkwitz-presentation-dipole-speaker-system.html).

I do have an ION USB device that allowed me to digitize a few open-reel tapes of live recordings by Christopher Hogwood and Nikolaus Harnoncourt to my hard-drive with very satisfactory results.  I have not tried that on my LP collection - 4000+ LP's is a lot of digitization work.  My understanding is there is now some one-click pops-and-clicks removal software, which is a whole lot better than some from a few years ago that required manual declicking ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 06, 2010, 04:30:25 AM
Quote from: Valentino on March 06, 2010, 04:21:59 AM
If my system is conventional I do wonder how an unconventional system looks.  0:)
Since my crossovers are digital I have to digitize the gramophone input. No way around that.  One could always make a discussion what sounds best: A traditional analog RIAA amplifier+ADC or a microphone amplifier+ADC+digital RIAA EQ, but I guess it quickly would dgrade to the normal religious audiophile trench war.

The WTC: I need more recordings. Further up I've said something about the ones I know well.

Valentino,  You may have to consider joining another forum George and I are also members of.  That forum has tons of expertise in hardware and digital sound technologies, though most of its members have no interest in classical music ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 05:14:09 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 05, 2010, 09:34:45 PM
I've had this set for many years and just gave it a listen so I could give you a current opinion.  That opinion is highly favorable; I enjoyed it more than ever before.  My sole complaint is that Horszowski isn't exactly a virtuoso.  He had some technical problems in a few of the faster pieces such as the Fugue in E flat major, but the artistry is top-notch.

Thanks very much!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 05:16:17 AM
Quote from: George on March 05, 2010, 06:27:00 PM
What do you think of this one, Don (and others)?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515LcQWTRFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41p1rwqTolL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I mentioned the Horszowski several months ago here and love it, same general performance style as Feinberg which has become my very favorite piano version of WTC........these two artists do more than just play the notes, they have a rythmic flow that eludes must others, imaginative and dramatic without sounding forced/willful as Gould can sometimes seem.

I have the above mentioned Pollini, Crossland, Hewitt etc and they play the notes beautifully and accurately but sometimes without the natural flow I hear in these two. The middle part of WTC I can sound flat if the keyboard player does not have a sense of imagination and ryhtmic flow, that is where I find most differences between versions and where these two stand out for me

Same can be said of Chopin's Mazurkas, if you just accurately play the notes they become a muddled mess. Artist must have a sense of rythmic flow in thier delivery that brings them to life
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 06, 2010, 05:19:59 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 05:16:17 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41p1rwqTolL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I mentioned the Horszowski several months ago here and love it, same general performance style as Feinberg which has become my very favorite piano version of WTC........these two artists do more than just play the notes, they have a rythmic flow that eludes must others, imaginative and dramatic without sounding forced/willful as Gould can sometimes seem.

I have the above mentioned Pollini, Crossland, Hewitt etc and they play the notes beautifully and accurately but sometimes without the natural flow I hear in these two. The middle part of WTC I can sound flat if the keyboard player does not have a sense of imagination and ryhtmic flow, that is where I find most differences between versions and where these two stand out for me

Same can be said of Chopin's Mazurkas, if you just accurately play the notes they become a muddled mess. Artist must have a sense of rythmic flow in thier delivery that brings them to life

Have you heard the sets by Edwin Fischer on Naxos Historical.  I have the 2 sets - WTC1 and WTC2 ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413NV68VZGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41G8J0NC24L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 05:25:02 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 05:16:17 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41p1rwqTolL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I mentioned the Horszowski several months ago here and love it, same general performance style as Feinberg which has become my very favorite piano version of WTC........these two artists do more than just play the notes, they have a rythmic flow that eludes must others, imaginative and dramatic without sounding forced/willful as Gould can sometimes seem.

Thanks Dark Angel. I read your prior comments last night. I sampled the Horszowski last night at a used store, but wasn't knocked out by it so I put it back. I need to spend more time with my Gould, Feinberg, Richter (Innsbruck and RCA), Fischer (Pearl) and Tureck sets before buying more.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 05:53:20 AM
Coop
I have heard samples of Fischer, but the sound may be too "historical" for me to buy the set or listen to on a regular basis, I really do like his dynamic style of his performance

George
Interesting that you are fan of Feinberg but not impressed with Horszowski, my initial impression was they are cut from same cloth with similar style......will give another listen later today to see if I missed something.

I also like Feinberg more than Richter RCA....... ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 06:10:09 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 05:53:20 AM
George
Interesting that you are fan of Feinberg but not impressed with Horszowski, my initial impression was they are cut from same cloth with similar style......will give another listen later today to see if I missed something.

That's just it. I don't tend to get multiple recordings that are in a similar vein. I like more contrast.

Quote
I also like Feinberg more than Richter RCA....... ;)

Me too.  8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 06, 2010, 06:14:45 AM
Quote from: George on March 06, 2010, 06:10:09 AM
That's just it. I don't tend to get multiple recordings that are in a similar vein. I like more contrast.

Me too.  8)

I don't have the WTC by Feinberg ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 06:20:17 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 06, 2010, 06:14:45 AM
I don't have the WTC by Feinberg ...

The one to have is the one that Dark Angel posted. It has the best mastering of those performances. I bought mine through the website Russian DVD.com.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 06:28:01 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 06, 2010, 06:14:45 AM
I don't have the WTC by Feinberg ...

Yes if you want one buy from Russian DVD out of NY..........expensive but cheapest place I have found
http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35887&genreid= (http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35887&genreid=)

I think I will break down and buy a Edwin Fischer set for historical reference, he does have a very dynamic style I like.....Anyone have a preference for 3CD EMI vs 4CD Naxos versions?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KV7nW32xL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413NV68VZGL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 06, 2010, 06:32:05 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 06:28:01 AM

Yes if you want one buy from Russian DVD out of NY..........expensive but cheapest place I have found
http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35887&genreid= (http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35887&genreid=)

I think I will break down and buy a Edwin Fischer set for historical reference, he does have a very dynamic style I like.....Anyone have a preference for EMI vs Naxos versions?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KV7nW32xL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413NV68VZGL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

The Naxos Historical version should have better SQ.  I found my sets to have excellent piano tone.

BTW, is the e-tailer Russian DVD you recommended located in NY?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on March 06, 2010, 06:32:32 AM
Quote from: Valentino on March 06, 2010, 04:21:59 AM
If my system is conventional I do wonder how an unconventional system looks.  0:)
;D 8) Hah!  Just saying that it's hardly "all digital" (as someone other than yourself described it). 
Quote from: Valentino on March 06, 2010, 04:21:59 AMThe WTC: I need more recordings. Further up I've said something about the ones I know well.
Need?  Not if you have Schiff.   8)  And especially not if Pollini is even better!  ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 06:40:26 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 06:28:01 AM

Yes if you want one buy from Russian DVD out of NY..........expensive but cheapest place I have found
http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35887&genreid= (http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35887&genreid=)

I think I will break down and buy a Edwin Fischer set for historical reference, he does have a very dynamic style I like.....Anyone have a preference for 3CD EMI vs 4CD Naxos versions?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KV7nW32xL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413NV68VZGL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I am not sure who did the Naxos. Coop?

But stay away from the EMI, as it's overfiltered and sounds like the piano is in the next room.

I have and enjoy the Pearl, but that's OOP.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 06, 2010, 06:44:08 AM
Quote from: George on March 06, 2010, 06:40:26 AM
I am not sure who did the Naxos. Coop?

But stay away from the EMI, as it's overfiltered and sounds like the piano is in the next room.

I have and enjoy the Pearl, but that's OOP.

Stuart A. Rosenthal
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 06:46:28 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 06, 2010, 06:44:08 AM
Stuart A. Rosenthal

Thanks. I haven't heard any of his work. I also recall hearing not so favorable things about the Naxos, but I forget where.

Dark Angel - more info here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,9456.msg349128.html#msg349128).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 06:53:13 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 06, 2010, 06:32:05 AM
The Naxos Historical version should have better SQ.  I found my sets to have excellent piano tone.

BTW, is the e-tailer Russian DVD you recommended located in NY?

Russian DVD ships from NY but I don't know if they have retail sales......or only website orders
Give them a call.....

RussianDVD.com,
269 Brighton Beach Ave.
Brooklyn, NY 11235

Tel: (718) 934-5048
Tel: 1-800-901-5543 (orders only)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 06, 2010, 07:03:40 AM
Quote from: George on March 06, 2010, 06:46:28 AM
Thanks. I haven't heard any of his work. I also recall hearing not so favorable things about the Naxos, but I forget where.

Dark Angel - more info here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,9456.msg349128.html#msg349128).

ClassicsToday blasted the Naxos for over-filtering the sound, considering the EMI transfers more natural.  Interesting since you have the opposite conclusions.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 06, 2010, 08:20:49 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 06, 2010, 07:03:40 AM
ClassicsToday blasted the Naxos for over-filtering the sound, considering the EMI transfers more natural.  Interesting since you have the opposite conclusions.

I have the EMI set, to which I have listened to precious little, although the audio seemed as good as could be expected, given the recording date.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 11:20:26 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 06, 2010, 07:03:40 AM
ClassicsToday blasted the Naxos for over-filtering the sound, considering the EMI transfers more natural.  Interesting since you have the opposite conclusions.

Not in this case. I haven't even heard the Naxos. Where did you read otherwise?  ???
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 06, 2010, 12:35:36 PM
Quote from: George on March 06, 2010, 11:20:26 AM
Not in this case. I haven't even heard the Naxos. Where did you read otherwise?  ???

Sorry - my mistake.

I've been listening to the Egarr Bk. 1 the past couple of weeks while driving.  It keeps growing on me, although I still don't find it outstanding.  However, it's a big improvement over his Goldbergs - more variety of expression, a good deal of rhythmic hesitation, and I don't think he's using those seagull quills.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 12:39:45 PM
Quote from: George on March 06, 2010, 06:40:26 AM
I am not sure who did the Naxos. Coop?

But stay away from the EMI, as it's overfiltered and sounds like the piano is in the next room.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EJKX0E5VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KV7nW32xL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I notice EMI has 2000 References release and newer 2008 GROTC release.......
In the discussion thread George referenced the discussion was about the 2000 release

Maybe sound has been remastered again for 2008 release with better results?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 12:45:47 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 12:39:45 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EJKX0E5VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KV7nW32xL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I notice EMI has 2000 References release and newer 2008 GROTC release.......
In the discussion thread George referenced the discussion was about the 2000 release

Maybe sound has been remastered again for 2008 release with better results?

Could be. Have you sampled it over at amazon or itunes?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 12:57:40 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KV7nW32xL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

No way, Jose. Sounds (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Well-Tempered-Clavier-Preludes-846-893/dp/B000VYYSH6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1267912506&sr=8-1) overfiltered to me.

Keep in mind the Pearl is very noisy, so if that will bother, the EMI might be the way to go. But to me, it sounds like Mr. Fischer is playing in a room down the hall.  :-\
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on March 06, 2010, 12:57:55 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 06:28:01 AM
I think I will break down and buy a Edwin Fischer set for historical reference, he does have a very dynamic style I like.....Anyone have a preference for 3CD EMI vs 4CD Naxos versions?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KV7nW32xL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413NV68VZGL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Quote from: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 12:39:45 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EJKX0E5VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KV7nW32xL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I notice EMI has 2000 References release and newer 2008 GROTC release.......
In the discussion thread George referenced the discussion was about the 2000 release

Maybe sound has been remastered again for 2008 release with better results?


I have heard the Naxos Historical transfers - and they are considerably below the general standard in that series. I also heard the EMI  Références series - and that's much worse, I wouldn't recommend that to anyone. If the GROC issue has a new transfer that could be better. I have the recordings on Pearl - significantly  better than either EMI Références or Naxos.

I frankly doubt if the two EMI transfers are different  - both issues have the "ART" sign on the cover, which usually produces excellent results BTW. As for alternatives, Pristine Classical (http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Keyboard/PAKM001.php) had a go - can't comment on the results.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 01:00:24 PM
Quote from: Que on March 06, 2010, 12:57:55 PM
I have heard the Naxos Historical transfers - and they are considerably below the general standard in that series. I also heard the EMI Références series - and that's much worse, I wouldn't recommend that to anyone. If the GROC issue has a new transfer that could be better.

Unfortunately no, check the samples in the link above.


QuoteI frankly doubt if the two EMI transfers are different  - both issues have the "ART" sign on the cover, which usually produce excellent results BTW. As for alternativeves, Pristine Classical (http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Keyboard/PAKM001.php) had a go - can't comment on the results.

Q

I heard a sample of Pristine's. Like most of their stuff that I have sampled, it sounded very processed.  :-\

It's a damn shame that these performances haven't been served well and the best of the bunch (Pearl) is OOP.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bunny on March 06, 2010, 01:41:59 PM
Quote from: George on March 06, 2010, 01:00:24 PM
Unfortunately no, check the samples in the link above.


I heard a sample of Pristine's. Like most of their stuff that I have sampled, it sounded very processed.  :-\

It's a damn shame that these performances haven't been served well and the best of the bunch (Pearl) is OOP.

According to the Pearl website (Pavillion Records (http://www.pavilionrecords.com/)) none of their titles are oop, but can be ordered directly from them.  It's hard going through the online catalog, but it can be done.  After you get the catalog number, you print out their order form and send it to them. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 06, 2010, 01:44:58 PM
Quote from: Bunny on March 06, 2010, 01:41:59 PM
According to the Pearl website (Pavillion Records (http://www.pavilionrecords.com/)) none of their titles are oop, but can be ordered directly from them.  It's hard going through the online catalog, but it can be done.  After you get the catalog number, you print out their order form and send it to them.

Are these CDR's ready to be burned when the order arrives?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 06, 2010, 02:02:08 PM
Quote from: Que on March 06, 2010, 12:57:55 PM

I have heard the Naxos Historical transfers - and they are considerably below the general standard in that series. I also heard the EMI  Références series - and that's much worse, I wouldn't recommend that to anyone.
Q

Judging from the samples, the Naxos sound is much better than the EMI.  Sometimes I wonder what Jed Distler is smoking in his pipe (regarding his ClassicsToday reviews).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Bunny on March 06, 2010, 01:41:59 PM
According to the Pearl website (Pavillion Records (http://www.pavilionrecords.com/)) none of their titles are oop, but can be ordered directly from them.  It's hard going through the online catalog, but it can be done.  After you get the catalog number, you print out their order form and send it to them.

I contacted Pearl via email last year and they told me that they had a number of titles in stock and ready for order, but not all titles. It's definitely worth contacting them though. I was able to get the two Rosenthal CDs that I hadn't seen for quite some time.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 06, 2010, 02:21:41 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 05, 2010, 05:49:29 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm not really satisfied.  I just did some comparison between Pollini and Woodward; Woodward is way better. ;D

I'm not kidding.  Woodward is a thinking person's version, and I know you do a lot of thinking.

Now you're just playing with me.  I listened to some samples of the Woodward.  It sounds like he is playing a Toyota piano with a stuck sustain pedal.   Anyway, off-putting enough to delay a purchase, at least.  :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 02:36:09 PM
Quote from: Que on March 06, 2010, 02:31:26 PM
George, the 1st link is empty! And I'm very curious. :)

Q

So my plan worked!  ;D Just kiddin'  ;) - I fixed the link (see below.)

You got the 2 Pearls though, right?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 02:37:10 PM

Just found this link (http://avaxhome.ws/music/classical/baroque/Das.Wohltemperierte.Klavier.html) to yet another transfer of the Edwin Fischer WTC.

Also, this review (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2290) of the Naxos WTC underlines some of the points made in this thread.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 02:48:35 PM
Quote from: George on March 06, 2010, 02:37:10 PM
Just found this link (http://avaxhome.ws/music/classical/baroque/Das.Wohltemperierte.Klavier.html) to yet another transfer of the Edwin Fischer WTC.

I believe it's on the Membran label. The link says DG, but that's obviously wrong.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on March 06, 2010, 03:06:56 PM
Quote from: George on March 06, 2010, 02:48:35 PM
I believe it's on the Membran label. The link says DG, but that's obviously wrong.

Just checked jpc, they list it as on the (in)famous "Documents" label, which is the same company as Membran BTW. To my ears it sounds (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-1-2/hnum/5304015) like a transfer from an early LP issue, which is legal (in Europe) after 50 years.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 06, 2010, 03:22:57 PM
Great discussion here (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_thread/thread/95f64dce518b3051/ed85158084d4231e?lnk=gst&q=fischer+pearl+bach#ed85158084d4231e), with Seth Winner, the man who did the transfers for Pearl, making a few comments.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 07, 2010, 10:08:06 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 06, 2010, 02:21:41 PM
Now you're just playing with me.  I listened to some samples of the Woodward.  It sounds like he is playing a Toyota piano with a stuck sustain pedal.   Anyway, off-putting enough to delay a purchase, at least.  :D

No, not playing at all, but I did forget how particular you are concerning preferences.  Maybe Woodward is enamored with the sustain pedal; didn't bother me since I didn't notice it much.  For me, Woodward is in the "slow and thought-provoking" vein like Aldwell, Horszowski, Martins, Tureck and Vieru.  It's just one of the Bach performance styles I enjoy, but it is a big winner given my tastes.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bogey on March 07, 2010, 11:08:33 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 07, 2010, 10:08:06 AM
No, not playing at all, but I did forget how particular you are concerning preferences.  Maybe Woodward is enamored with the sustain pedal; didn't bother me since I didn't notice it much.  For me, Woodward is in the "slow and thought-provoking" vein like Aldwell, Horszowski, Martins, Tureck and Vieru.  It's just one of the Bach performance styles I enjoy, but it is a big winner given my tastes.

On the slow side, who is your favorite of these, Don?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 07, 2010, 01:50:29 PM
Quote from: Bogey on March 07, 2010, 11:08:33 AM
On the slow side, who is your favorite of these, Don?

Rosalyn Tureck, of course. 8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 07, 2010, 01:55:40 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 07, 2010, 01:50:29 PM
Rosalyn Tureck, of course. 8)

The DG one, Bill!  0:)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 07, 2010, 02:14:29 PM
Quote from: George on March 07, 2010, 01:55:40 PM
The DG one, Bill!  0:)

Good memory, George.  I should take you with me when food shopping. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 07, 2010, 02:16:11 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 07, 2010, 02:14:29 PM
Good memory, George.  I should take you with me when food shopping. :)

Nah, I am always forgetting to pick up one or two things. Until I get home, of course.  ::)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 07, 2010, 02:22:20 PM
Quote from: George on March 07, 2010, 02:16:11 PM
Nah, I am always forgetting to pick up one or two things. Until I get home, of course.  ::)

Right, but you likely have a cell phone and can call home to get needed information.  I don't own a cell phone; my intent is to be the last adult in the States without one.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 07, 2010, 02:26:37 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 07, 2010, 02:22:20 PM
Right, but you likely have a cell phone and can call home to get needed information.  I don't own a cell phone; my intent is to be the last adult in the States without one.

We have something in common. I don't own one too. I like to be unreachable.  8)

Good part is that I walk home every day, right past the grocery store.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 07, 2010, 02:29:17 PM
Quote from: George on March 07, 2010, 02:26:37 PM
We have something in common. I don't own one too. I like to be unreachable.  8)

You know, cell phones do have on/off switches. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 07, 2010, 03:14:01 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 07, 2010, 02:29:17 PM
You know, cell phones do have on/off switches.

But you have to carry them around; I like to travel light.  Boy, that sure sounds lame.  I need to come up with a better reason.  Here it is - if Bach didn't need a cell phone, I don't need one either.  That sucks too.  Oh well, I'll just have to go with being contrary; it's in my nature.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on March 07, 2010, 05:01:21 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 07, 2010, 03:14:01 PM
But you have to carry them around; I like to travel light.  Boy, that sure sounds lame.  I need to come up with a better reason.  Here it is - if Bach didn't need a cell phone, I don't need one either.  That sucks too.  Oh well, I'll just have to go with being contrary; it's in my nature.

I'm another member of the uncellphoned brigade.
What I tell people: "If it's that important, it's probably something I don't want to know about". 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 07, 2010, 05:11:05 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on March 07, 2010, 05:01:21 PM
I'm another member of the uncellphoned brigade.
What I tell people: "If it's that important, it's probably something I don't want to know about".

;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on March 08, 2010, 04:39:33 AM
Now, has anyone heard the WTC played on a cellphone keypad? 0:)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 08, 2010, 06:18:57 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 08, 2010, 04:39:33 AM
Now, has anyone heard the WTC played on a cellphone keypad? 0:)

No, but I have a historical recording of someone playing it on this:

(http://artandcritique.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/archaic-beauty-rotary-telephone.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on March 08, 2010, 06:25:32 AM
Quote from: George on March 08, 2010, 06:18:57 AM
No, but I have a historical recording of someone playing it on this:

(http://artandcritique.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/archaic-beauty-rotary-telephone.jpg)

Wired Telephonic Cacophony? :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 09, 2010, 10:54:12 AM
Well, yesterday both March-April issues of the American Record Guide & Fanfare arrived!  And surprisingly in both issues, there was a lot of discussion on Bach's WTC - been reading the reviews the last couple of days - will put some brief comments below to further add to the discussion - BTW, I'm still contemplating a 'harpsichord' version and another 'piano' set:

American Record Guide

  Haskin's thoughts on Pollini BkI -
QuoteThis has become my favorite Well-Tempered Clavier on piano....Occasionally his singing and breathing is audible—very audible—I love it, but it's probably not to everyone'staste.

  Haskin's on Watchorn BkII (pedal harpsichord) -
QuotePeter told me that he's been working on his interpretation of the WTC II for 40 years, and it  shows: this is music-making of the highest  order. I've listened to this set four times now  and haven't tired of it yet. You won't, either.....From an interpretive standpoint, Watchorn goes farther than any harpsichordist I know to bring this harpsichord music into the sacred orbit of Bach's Leipzig years.

Fanfare

  Phillip Scott also on Pollini BkI -
QuoteUnlike Hewitt in her second recording, he does not pull tempos around, but keeps then strict, almost robotic...Another minus...is the pianist's tendency to hum along in a tuneless vocal....I returned to the Hewitt and found her playing full of felicitous touches

  Jerry Dubins on Belder (hpd) both Bks -
QuoteBelder uses two different instruments...in BkI....a lack of color and imagination, and quite likely the lifelessness of the harpsichord...BkII is a significant improvement...sparks Belder to some of his finest playing.....If my reaction to BkI was tepid, it was more than thawed by my enthusiasm for BkII...for a harpsichord version, you can't really go wrong with this set.

  Lynn Bayler on Jill Crossland BkII -
QuotePerhaps I am just more sensitive to this sort of approach, but I find her playing far superior to Edwin Fischer's because she finds moods and stories in this music and not just spirituality.

Arkiv Music has reprinted the Fanfare reviews of Scott & Dubins - hope that these brief comments might add some 'fodder' to the thread -  ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 09, 2010, 03:31:10 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 09, 2010, 10:54:12 AM
Well, yesterday both March-April issues of the American Record Guide & Fanfare arrived!  And surprisingly in both issues, there was a lot of discussion on Bach's WTC - been reading the reviews the last couple of days - will put some brief comments below to further add to the discussion - BTW, I'm still contemplating a 'harpsichord' version and another 'piano' set:

American Record Guide

  Haskin's thoughts on Pollini BkI -
  Haskin's on Watchorn BkII (pedal harpsichord) -
Fanfare

  Phillip Scott also on Pollini BkI -
  Jerry Dubins on Belder (hpd) both Bks -
  Lynn Bayler on Jill Crossland BkII -
Arkiv Music has reprinted the Fanfare reviews of Scott & Dubins - hope that these brief comments might add some 'fodder' to the thread -  ;D

Just shows that everyone has an opinion. 8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on March 09, 2010, 04:01:38 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4127J9ZW0RL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Good news, I recently made a very good "score" on the used market....... :)

Got this 11 CD boxset that includes Alan Curtis French & English suites, Scott Ross partitas, Glen Wilson WTC I & II, plus more.......waited many months to find one. Now will someone please buy my Glen Wilson WTCs in the for sale section here
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 09, 2010, 04:18:01 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 09, 2010, 04:01:38 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4127J9ZW0RL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Good news, I recently made a very good "score" on the used market....... :)

Got this 11 CD boxset that includes Alan Curtis French & English suites, Scott Ross partitas, Glen Wilson WTC I & II, plus more.......waited many months to find one. Now will someone please buy my Glen Wilson WTCs in the for sale section here

Ooooo, I have the orchestral music box from that set.   Packaging is astonishing, the box is almost entirely empty.  I guess the entire thing is supposed to form a wall that spells out Bach's name.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on March 09, 2010, 04:26:12 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 09, 2010, 04:18:01 PM
Ooooo, I have the orchestral music box from that set.   Packaging is astonishing, the box is almost entirely empty.  I guess the entire thing is supposed to form a wall that spells out Bach's name.

Yes the box is a cube and really only needs to be 1-2" thick clamshell box.......
I notice someone is selling a used complete 153 CD set for only $2,500 used at Amazon  ::)

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-2000-Complete-Commemorative-Book/dp/B00001IV8B/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268182769&sr=1-12 (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-2000-Complete-Commemorative-Book/dp/B00001IV8B/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268182769&sr=1-12)


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bunny on March 09, 2010, 06:27:47 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 09, 2010, 04:26:12 PM

Yes the box is a cube and really only needs to be 1-2" thick clamshell box.......
I notice someone is selling a used complete 153 CD set for only $2,500 used at Amazon  ::)

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-2000-Complete-Commemorative-Book/dp/B00001IV8B/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268182769&sr=1-12 (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-2000-Complete-Commemorative-Book/dp/B00001IV8B/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268182769&sr=1-12)

I have the "secular" cantatas from that set and the packaging is reminiscent of a counter display of chocolates.  I can't imagine what the graphics department at Teldec was thinking of when they came up with it.  Or maybe they had boxes that were designed for jewelcases, and then decided to adapt them for sleeve covered cds? In any event, I love the music (Ton Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra) as much as I'm puzzled by the packaging.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/313V7MANSXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 09, 2010, 08:24:09 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 09, 2010, 04:01:38 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4127J9ZW0RL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Good news, I recently made a very good "score" on the used market....... :)

Got this 11 CD boxset that includes Alan Curtis French & English suites, Scott Ross partitas, Glen Wilson WTC I & II, plus more.......waited many months to find one. Now will someone please buy my Glen Wilson WTCs in the for sale section here

That's a fantastic boxset.  Folks who buy it will have a major treat in store for them.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 09, 2010, 11:07:59 PM
Listened to the first four pairs from from this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SWXKNZJXL._SS500_.jpg)

No big interpretive risks, so far, but beautifully played, with clarity and grace.  Very pleased so far.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 10, 2010, 02:48:14 PM
I had heard some of Koroliov's WTC performances but only recently acquired, through a friend, the entire WTC.  Although I'm not yet in a position to offer conclusive opinions, I have been bowled over by his fantastic virtuosity combined with stellar interpretations.  Most amazing to me is his decision-making as to staccato, detached and legato touch; you never know what he will do except that he'll do all of it.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if I end up placing Koroliov's sets among the very best along with Gould, Gulda, Woodward,Fellner, etc.  I'm already convinced he's superior to Hewitt, Schiff, Ashkenazy, Crochet, Pollini and most others.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on March 10, 2010, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 10, 2010, 02:48:14 PM
I had heard some of Koroliov's WTC performances but only recently acquired, through a friend, the entire WTC.  Although I'm not yet in a position to offer conclusive opinions, I have been bowled over by his fantastic virtuosity combined with stellar interpretations.  Most amazing to me is his decision-making as to staccato, detached and legato touch; you never know what he will do except that he'll do all of it.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if I end up placing Koroliov's sets among the very best along with Gould, Gulda, Woodward,Fellner, etc.  I'm already convinced he's superior to Hewitt, Schiff, Ashkenazy, Crochet, Pollini and most others.

I remember classicstoday reviewers David Hurwitz and Jed Distler gave this 10/10 for both WTC I & II
Very expensive on import boutique label for USA buyers, that is what holds me back (friends are good to have)

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=1230 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=1230)

Samples at JPC:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-1/hnum/2210920 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-1/hnum/2210920)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 10, 2010, 03:54:27 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 09, 2010, 03:31:10 PM
Just shows that everyone has an opinion. 8)

Yes, Don - after reading SO MANY reviews of these performances, seems like the decision is in one's own mind & ears -  ;D

And as we all know, opinions are like the 'other end' of your GI tract (my specialty BTW), i.e. everyone has one!  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 10, 2010, 04:01:56 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 10, 2010, 03:29:29 PM

I remember classicstoday reviewers David Hurwitz and Jed Distler gave this 10/10 for both WTC I & II
Very expensive on import boutique label for USA buyers, that is what holds me back (friends are good to have)

Yes, I consider friends among the "Big Four", the other three being family, pets and Bach.  Sometimes I even let my dog Jackson make the musical selections; I just throw a few discs on the floor and Jackson eventually picks one or two of them.  Of course, a little dab of butter on a favored/flavored disc does influence the outcome.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bunny on March 10, 2010, 05:07:14 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 10, 2010, 03:29:29 PM

I remember classicstoday reviewers David Hurwitz and Jed Distler gave this 10/10 for both WTC I & II
Very expensive on import boutique label for USA buyers, that is what holds me back (friends are good to have)

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=1230 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=1230)

Samples at JPC:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-1/hnum/2210920 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-1/hnum/2210920)



The Hänssler Bach box set that you had been considering at Berkshire has Koroliov's Goldbergs as well as his recordings of the Inventions and Sinfonia, and the French Overture and Italian concerto. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 11, 2010, 02:40:15 PM
I noticed an old hyperion recording of the WTC, by Colin Tilney, on Clavichord.  Out of print and no used copies evident.  Any well regarded recordings of the WTC on clavichord I should know about.  There is the Kirkpatrick on DG, but others?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 11, 2010, 03:10:38 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 10, 2010, 03:29:29 PM
I remember classicstoday reviewers David Hurwitz and Jed Distler gave this 10/10 for both WTC I & II
Very expensive on import boutique label for USA buyers, that is what holds me back (friends are good to have)

Coincidentally, the Koroliov Book One and Two appeared over at Demonoid last night. I am listening to book one right now and it is indeed performed splendidly. Nice sound too.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on March 11, 2010, 03:15:56 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 10, 2010, 04:01:56 PM
Yes, I consider friends among the "Big Four", the other three being family, pets and Bach.  Sometimes I even let my dog Jackson make the musical selections; I just throw a few discs on the floor and Jackson eventually picks one or two of them.  Of course, a little dab of butter on a favored/flavored disc does influence the outcome.
I think I like Jackson. Apparently we share some passions.

Butter, Bach and Booze .... that's all I need! :P

And a pet with a good musical taste. Like my late cat, who amazingly seemed to like Mahler. Jumped on the (warm) amplifier, with speakers to his left and right, and sitting and listening with ears pricked and eyes closed to the Auferstehung.
He wasn't all that fond of the piano though. Especially when the boss himself (yours truly) was trying to play some 2 part Invention.

I never dared to touch the WTC .... ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 11, 2010, 07:27:19 PM
Bach
WTC BK 1, CD 1
Koroliov
Tacet


For those who might wish to sample Koroliov's Bach, here's links to these four works:

Prelude in C Major (http://queencdmastering.wikispaces.com/file/detail/Track01.mp3)

Fugue in C Major (http://queencdmastering.wikispaces.com/file/detail/Track02.mp3)

Prelude in c minor (http://queencdmastering.wikispaces.com/file/detail/Track03.mp3)

Fugue in c minor (http://queencdmastering.wikispaces.com/file/detail/Track04.mp3)

Player is found at the bottom left of your screen. Just click on the triangle.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 14, 2010, 10:37:37 AM
Quote from: George on March 11, 2010, 07:27:19 PM
Bach
WTC BK 1, CD 1
Koroliov
Tacet


For those who might wish to sample Koroliov's Bach, here's links to these four works:

Prelude in C Minor (http://queencdmastering.wikispaces.com/file/detail/Track01.mp3)

Fugue in C Minor (http://queencdmastering.wikispaces.com/file/detail/Track02.mp3)

Prelude in C minor (http://queencdmastering.wikispaces.com/file/detail/Track03.mp3)

Fugue in C minor (http://queencdmastering.wikispaces.com/file/detail/Track04.mp3)

Player is found at the bottom left of your screen. Just click on the triangle.

For the first two you mean C-major, I assume.

They sound very nice.  Why is it, I wonder, that these very fine Bach recordings always seem to be on dodgy labels, out of print and/or available an exorbitant prices?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 14, 2010, 12:03:17 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 14, 2010, 10:37:37 AM
For the first two you mean C-major, I assume.

They sound very nice.  Why is it, I wonder, that these very fine Bach recordings always seem to be on dodgy labels, out of print and/or available an exorbitant prices?

So that we can feel justified in downloading them for free?

(Yes, the first two are C Major, I'll fix that)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 14, 2010, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 14, 2010, 10:37:37 AM
For the first two you mean C-major, I assume.

They sound very nice.  Why is it, I wonder, that these very fine Bach recordings always seem to be on dodgy labels, out of print and/or available an exorbitant prices?

There's nothing "dodgy" about the Tacet label.  It's just a small German company, and we're all aware that many outstanding recordings come from labels that aren't big-time.

One can buy both Books directly from Tacet at less than exorbitant prices.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on March 14, 2010, 01:47:06 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21WR5C51C5L._SL500_AA130_.jpg)

Bulldog (or anyone else) do I dare ask how you feel about Anthony Newman's WTC I?

He has a 3CD set that is done in both piano and harpsicord versions, Newman prefers the harpsicord for Bach since he almost always wants to use instruments available to the original composer, he does mention in notes that piano versions outsell harpsicord versions by a large margin and some very good classic piano versions by Fischer, Gould and others have given rise to public preference.

Newman uses a scored marked up by Karl Czerny (student and friend of Beethoven) that represents his best recollection of how Beethoven performed these pieces, has extreme tempo variations both fast and slow from standard practice today.......some are indeed very fast!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Holden on March 14, 2010, 02:16:06 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 14, 2010, 10:37:37 AM
For the first two you mean C-major, I assume.

They sound very nice.  Why is it, I wonder, that these very fine Bach recordings always seem to be on dodgy labels, out of print and/or available an exorbitant prices?

I have three recordings of Bach's music by Koroliov and all are excellent which leads me to think that he must be one of the top exponents of JSB keyboard works if not the absolute #1. If you haven't already, see if you can sample these.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416TGTW9CML._SL160_AA115_.jpg)  (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/37/372835.JPG)  (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/44/73/a3a781b0c8a0609aea05e110.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 14, 2010, 02:43:28 PM
Well, I believe that I acquired a harpsichord version of these works that will please me for a long time!  :D

I was extremely fortunate to obtain the Glen Wilson double-discs sets shown below (each packaged nicely as 2-CDs in single-sized jewel boxes - love it!) from one of our illustrious members who is also an 'Amazon Marketplace' retailer - he gave me a great deal (won't mention who since he likely wants to be anonymous) - thanks!  Dave  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachWilsonWTCI/808647413_YBs23-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachWilsonWTCII/808647425_cFuTb-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 14, 2010, 02:46:16 PM
Quote from: Holden on March 14, 2010, 02:16:06 PM
I have three recordings of Bach's music by Koroliov and all are excellent which leads me to think that he must be one of the top exponents of JSB keyboard works if not the absolute #1. If you haven't already, see if you can sample these.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416TGTW9CML._SL160_AA115_.jpg)  (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/37/372835.JPG)  (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/44/73/a3a781b0c8a0609aea05e110.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have sampled some of those and found them very good.  If only his WTC were available in the US, or even from overseas at a sane price.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 14, 2010, 03:17:57 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 14, 2010, 01:47:06 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21WR5C51C5L._SL500_AA130_.jpg)

Bulldog (or anyone else) do I dare ask how you feel about Anthony Newman's WTC I?

Sorry, never heard it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 14, 2010, 03:27:39 PM
Quote from: Holden on March 14, 2010, 02:16:06 PM
I have three recordings of Bach's music by Koroliov and all are excellent which leads me to think that he must be one of the top exponents of JSB keyboard works if not the absolute #1. If you haven't already, ................
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516Xcs7v26L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Holden - a few pages or so back in this thread, you brought up the Woodward recordings of both books of the WTC - if you own and have heard these discs, any opinions?  Currently I own the complete set w/ Jill Crossland (and have plenty of 'harpsichord' sets now), so still looking for another one on piano - so many options?  Not a 'cheap' set but available at MDT for $40+ - thanks for any comments - Dave   :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Clever Hans on March 14, 2010, 09:19:00 PM
In the US, Tacet can be bought through

http://www.spinningdogrecords.com/tacetsound.html

Koroliov's WTC is tremendous.
He first performed it at 17, so his interpretations are mature, to say the least.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 14, 2010, 09:53:21 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on March 14, 2010, 09:19:00 PM
In the US, Tacet can be bought through

http://www.spinningdogrecords.com/tacetsound.html

Koroliov's WTC is tremendous.
He first performed it at 17, so his interpretations are mature, to say the least.

On that site, it would cost $80 to get books 1 and 2.  Too rich for my blood, and considerably more than it would cost to import it from one of the usual UK web sites.  I can't imagine there are enough rubes in the world to keep a site like this "spinningdogrecords" in business.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 14, 2010, 10:26:44 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 14, 2010, 09:53:21 PM
On that site, it would cost $80 to get books 1 and 2.  Too rich for my blood, and considerably more than it would cost to import it from one of the usual UK web sites.  I can't imagine there are enough rubes in the world to keep a site like this "spinningdogrecords" in business.

Wow - $80! Just as a comparison, you can find the Richter for $20-25 (maybe others for even less).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 14, 2010, 11:02:56 PM
Quote from: ukrneal on March 14, 2010, 10:26:44 PM
Wow - $80! Just as a comparison, you can find the Richter for $20-25 (maybe others for even less).

Quite so, much more expensive than recordings by the most renown pianists such as Ashkenazy, Pollini, Richter, Schiff, Hewitt, etc.  Not so say that music is a commodity that should be sold based on cents per minute, but a priori I don't know how good these recordings are.  Why should I pay four times as much to hear these recordings as some other recordings that might be equally good.   

Clearly they can charge anything they want, but they've priced themselves out of my consideration, and I'm a lunatic who owns more than half a dozen recordings of the WTC.  Who is their customer, I'd like to know?  I'll keep an eye on the clearance houses, waiting for the moment they go bankrupt and their recordings are remaindered for a dollar a disc.   ;D

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Clever Hans on March 14, 2010, 11:30:16 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 14, 2010, 11:02:56 PM
Quite so, much more expensive than recordings by the most renown pianists such as Ashkenazy, Pollini, Richter, Schiff, Hewitt, etc.  Not so say that music is a commodity that should be sold based on cents per minute, but a priori I don't know how good these recordings are.  Why should I pay four times as much to hear these recordings as some other recordings that might be equally good.   

Clearly they can charge anything they want, but they've priced themselves out of my consideration, and I'm a lunatic who owns more than half a dozen recordings of the WTC.  Who is their customer, I'd like to know?  I'll keep an eye on the clearance houses, waiting for the moment they go bankrupt and their recordings are remaindered for a dollar a disc.   ;D

Because Pollini, Schiff, and Hewitt (both) are not equally good. Hewitt is genteel in comparison, which I suppose is why so many people like her, and don't get me started on Schiff.
Pollini is interesting, but I don't think on the same level.   
Ashkenazy I don't know.

If you want a mature, profound but tasteful performance get the Koroliov.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Holden on March 15, 2010, 01:17:31 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 14, 2010, 03:27:39 PM
Holden - a few pages or so back in this thread, you brought up the Woodward recordings of both books of the WTC - if you own and have heard these discs, any opinions?  Currently I own the complete set w/ Jill Crossland (and have plenty of 'harpsichord' sets now), so still looking for another one on piano - so many options?  Not a 'cheap' set but available at MDT for $40+ - thanks for any comments - Dave   :)

I've only heard snippets/samples but enough to make me very intrigued. It's rated very highly by many posters across a range of forums.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 15, 2010, 01:56:29 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 14, 2010, 01:15:06 PM
There's nothing "dodgy" about the Tacet label.  It's just a small German company, and we're all aware that many outstanding recordings come from labels that aren't big-time.

One can buy both Books directly from Tacet at less than exorbitant prices.

The cheapest I have found so far is mdt (at approx $65, including shipping). Tacet is 30EUR (w/o VAT) per part! Then, it looks like they add in 10.75EUR for shipping to the US! This doesn't seem to be a good option for US buyers. JPC is even worse (EUR35). And to think I limit myself to a maximum disc price of $15 or so (and I can think of only about 4-5 discs where I spent as much as that in recent years)!!

I am intrigued too though, as it sounds to my taste. The First prelude had a bit of slight tempo slowdowns periodically, but I didn't really hear that elsewhere, so presumably this it limited in scope? JPC has some samples for those who want to hear more scope of the work (in addition to a few longer ones provided earlier in this thread - thanks for that).  Anyway, perhaps a good sale will come along at some point.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 05:59:37 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on March 14, 2010, 11:30:16 PM
Because Pollini, Schiff, and Hewitt (both) are not equally good. Hewitt is genteel in comparison, which I suppose is why so many people like her, and don't get me started on Schiff.
Pollini is interesting, but I don't think on the same level.   
Ashkenazy I don't know.

If you want a mature, profound but tasteful performance get the Koroliov.

I'm to plunk down $80 to find out if I like it?  Sorry, there are too many other recordings of the WTC that I've never heard.  I can try out 3 of them for the price of this one.  If this recording is as good as you say, well that's just a shame.  I suspect it's mediocre.  People who bought it need to invent a narrative for why they let themselves be taken advantage of.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on March 15, 2010, 06:49:38 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 05:59:37 AMI'm to plunk down $80 to find out if I like it?  Sorry, there are too many other recordings of the WTC that I've never heard.  I can try out 3 of them for the price of this one.  If this recording is as good as you say, well that's just a shame.  I suspect it's mediocre.  People who bought it need to invent a narrative for why they let themselves be taken advantage of.
FWIW, both books for $60 + shipping (~$3 to USA) from MDT.  I've not heard these discs, so don't know if they're to my taste, or sufficiently different & better than the sets I already have to be worthwhile--for me.  Again, FWIW, the Hurwitzer loves Koroliov's WTC.  (I suspect that impresses you no more favorably than it does me.)

Schiff, whom I like very much in this as in the Goldbergs and English Suites, goes for about $40 on Amazon.  Crossland, who ain't bad either, can be had for about $30.   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 07:59:37 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 15, 2010, 06:49:38 AMSchiff, whom I like very much in this as in the Goldbergs and English Suites, goes for about $40 on Amazon.  Crossland, who ain't bad either, can be had for about $30.

All of which I have.   More to the point, the Woodward recording on another boutique label, which up until now I thought of as expensive, is 28 pounds on MDT, as opposed to 40 pounds for Koroliov (comparing prices for the 48).  In both cases shipping would be 3 pounds.  I see the exchange rate has moved to favor US purchasers, 1 pound = 1.5 dollars.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 15, 2010, 08:02:42 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 05:59:37 AM
I'm to plunk down $80 to find out if I like it?  Sorry, there are too many other recordings of the WTC that I've never heard.  I can try out 3 of them for the price of this one.  If this recording is as good as you say, well that's just a shame.  I suspect it's mediocre.  People who bought it need to invent a narrative for why they let themselves be taken advantage of.

Let's get down to Earth about this matter:

1.  Koroliov is never mediocre.

2.  I didn't pay one cent for my copies of his WTC and consider the performances outstanding.

3. There are recordings that transcend adjectives such as excellent or satisfying; the Koroliov WTC is in this category.

4.  Sometimes, these transcendent recordings are only available at a very high price.

5.  Your decision to make, but don't make the mistake of depreciating the long-term value of the recordings in question because you don't want to pay the freight.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 08:07:32 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 15, 2010, 08:02:42 AM
Let's get down to Earth about this matter:

1.  Koroliov is never mediocre.

2.  I didn't pay one cent for my copies of his WTC and consider the performances outstanding.

3. There are recordings that transcend adjectives such as excellent or satisfying; the Koroliov WTC is in this category.

4.  Sometimes, these transcendent recordings are only available at a very high price.

5.  Your decision to make, but don't make the mistake of depreciating the long-term value of the recordings in question because you don't want to pay the freight.

I see, how did you manage to get it without paying a cent?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 15, 2010, 08:28:39 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 08:07:32 AM
I see, how did you manage to get it without paying a cent?

A friend made copies for me.  Unlike some of the folks on the board, I have no problem with CD-R's.  Each of the four discs offers fantastic sound that I expect will hold up for decades.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 08:53:12 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 15, 2010, 08:28:39 AM
A friend made copies for me.  Unlike some of the folks on the board, I have no problem with CD-R's.  Each of the four discs offers fantastic sound that I expect will hold up for decades.

Lucky dog.

There is no reason to imagine that a CD-R would sound any different from the CD it was copied from.   After all, I can copy 700 Mb of data to a CDR and read it back without losing single bit of data.  How long they will last another question.  I have definitely had CDRs that became unreadable after being left in the car on a sunny summer day.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 15, 2010, 08:59:46 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 08:53:12 AM
Lucky dog.

There is no reason to imagine that a CD-R would sound any different from the CD it was copied from.   After all, I can copy 700 Mb of data to a CDR and read it back without losing single bit of data.  How long they will last another question.  I have definitely had CDRs that became unreadable after being left in the car on a sunny summer day.

I'd be dead if you left me in the car on hot summer's day. ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 15, 2010, 09:27:06 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 15, 2010, 08:28:39 AM
A friend made copies for me. 

I got mine from an anonymous friend. In cases like this, I have no problem living with a CD-R. If I happen to really fall in love with the performances (as I sometimes do), I will likely buy the CDs at some point. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 09:32:07 AM
Quote from: George on March 15, 2010, 09:27:06 AM
I got mine from an anonymous friend. In cases like this, I have no problem living with a CD-R. If I happen to really fall in love with the performances (as I sometimes do), I will likely buy the CDs at some point.

Web sites ring with the praises of these recordings from people who listening to illegitimate copies.  What a sucker I would be to actually buy the thing.  Probably there is only one copy in circulation and it hasn't gotten to my town yet.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: 71 dB on March 15, 2010, 10:04:25 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 08:53:12 AM
After all, I can copy 700 MB of data to a CDR and read it back without losing single bit of data.

Data discs use stronger error correction (more bits used for that). That's why a CD-R takes more music than data (700 MB data discs take 80 minutes of music when 80 minutes of stereo 44100 Hz/16 bits music means about 800 MB of PCM data).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 10:07:02 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 15, 2010, 10:04:25 AM
Data discs use stronger error correction (more bits used for that). That's why a CD-R takes more music than data (700 MB data discs take 80 minutes of music when 80 minutes of stereo 44100 Hz/16 bits music means about 800 MB of PCM data).

I was referring to the process of burning an audio CD and comparing the data on the resulting CD-R to the original data, be that the original CD or the source wav files.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 15, 2010, 10:20:33 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 09:32:07 AM
Web sites ring with the praises of these recordings from people who listening to illegitimate copies.  What a sucker I would be to actually buy the thing.  Probably there is only one copy in circulation and it hasn't gotten to my town yet.

You're not a member at Demonoid? It's been seeding there for a few days.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on March 15, 2010, 10:26:43 AM
Quote from: George on March 15, 2010, 10:20:33 AM
You're not a member at Demonoid? It's been seeding there for a few days.

14! That's the largest I've seen for a classical album... at least among the ones I have seen/searched for so far, anyway
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 15, 2010, 10:31:38 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 15, 2010, 10:26:43 AM
14! That's the largest I've seen for a classical album... at least among the ones I have seen/searched for so far, anyway

Right and how many downloaded?  I bet over a couple hundred.

I was the one who requested the re-seed BTW.  0:)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 10:33:24 AM
Quote from: George on March 15, 2010, 10:20:33 AM
You're not a member at Demonoid? It's been seeding there for a few days.

What's a Demonoid?   :o
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on March 15, 2010, 10:38:01 AM
Quote from: George on March 15, 2010, 10:31:38 AM
Right and how many downloaded?  I bet over a couple hundred.
If you mean the files, a little over a hundred at the moment. ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Clever Hans on March 15, 2010, 11:04:08 AM
To reiterate, just because Koroliov is on a label without good circulation in the US, doesn't mean he's an obscure Bach pianist.

To give some examples,

Aside from the two critics at Classics Today, Distler (who also writes for Gramophone) and Hurwitz.

His Book II and Goldberg variations each received a Diapason d'Or.

His Art of Fugue was editor's choice in Gramophone.
And of course, there's that famous quote from György Ligeti, who is one of if not the greatest composer of the 2nd half of the 20th century.

Unfortunately, however, he has been overshadowed in the markets by Schiff, Hewitt, and Perahia. Perahia, of course, has done the Partitas and English suites, which Koroliov has not recorded. Schiff is a mincing pianist in everything, and he screws with the counterpoint in Bach. Hewitt is too timid, genteel, and bird-like for me at least. Just because they have been more heavily promoted, and have a politely appealing sound, does not mean they are on the same interpretive level



Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on March 15, 2010, 11:25:53 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on March 15, 2010, 11:04:08 AM
To reiterate, just because Koroliov is on a label without good circulation in the US, doesn't mean he's an
Unfortunately, however, he has been overshadowed in the markets by Schiff, Hewitt, and Perahia. Perahia, of course, has done the Partitas and English suites, which Koroliov has not recorded. Schiff is a mincing pianist in everything, and he screws with the counterpoint in Bach. Hewitt is too timid, genteel, and bird-like for me at least. Just because they have been more heavily promoted, and have a politely appealing sound, does not mean they are on the same interpretive level

Hans did you originally make the comment about Angela Hewitt sounding like a small bird pecking away gently at the paino keys below.......
I love that description and have used it a few times here  ;)

I think the reason I like her 1st set of WTC better is that she uses a Steinway and it has more power and stronger dymanic range, the new set with the lighter clearer toned Fasoli piano just accentuates the bird like quality.....

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 01:03:56 PM
I'm not down with that, the Fasoli piano has a very rich sound, not at all "lightweight" compared with a Steinway, IMO.

To change the subject somewhat, what do you all think of the Watchorn?  And what's with Egarr, why did he stop after Book I?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on March 15, 2010, 01:48:10 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 01:03:56 PM
I'm not down with that, the Fasoli piano has a very rich sound, not at all "lightweight" compared with a Steinway, IMO.

To change the subject somewhat, what do you all think of the Watchorn?  And what's with Egarr, why did he stop after Book I?

I must correct myself the name is Fazioli piano, and one of its selling points is a 4th pedal that supposed to more easily accurately produce soft sounds, less force used on strings.......but for me this is not what Hewitt needs more of in her new WTC, I long for her more dramatic sounding (less soft) original set.

Watchorn WTC I
Has been mention by a few people in this thread all positive as I recall, I really like the rich full sound of the pedal harpsicord he uses which makes it unique and highly desireable version
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 15, 2010, 01:51:08 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 01:03:56 PM
To change the subject somewhat, what do you all think of the Watchorn?  And what's with Egarr, why did he stop after Book I?

There have been many favorable comments on this board about Watchorn's WTC, mine among them.  As for Egarr, he's made some recordings of Bach, Handel and Purcell since his WTC I; I assume he will eventually get to BK. 2, and I'm having no problem being patient about it since his Bk. 1 is not what I would call a compelling account.  However, it is much better than his Goldbergs disc.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 02:22:17 PM
Thanks for your comments on Watchorn.  In addition to his playing, I'm curious as to whether the tuning method he advocates makes any distinctive difference.  I've recently been listening to Ashkenazy's account and there have been times when I have wondered whether the piano was tuned in something other than even temperament.  On the other hand, maybe my ears are just going.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 15, 2010, 02:30:11 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 15, 2010, 01:51:08 PM
There have been many favorable comments on this board about Watchorn's WTC, mine among them.  As for Egarr, he's made some recordings of Bach, Handel and Purcell since his WTC I; I assume he will eventually get to BK. 2, and I'm having no problem being patient about it since his Bk. 1 is not what I would call a compelling account.  However, it is much better than his Goldbergs disc.

Apparently that BK. 2 by Egarr was already recorded and even produced because some weeks ago, IIRC, I saw the picture of its cover in another forum. And Watchorn: IMO, a superior recording, although I have just listened to his Bk. 1. 

P.S.: About Watchorn - somewhere in this thread you will find my hysterical reaction when I knew his Bk. 1.   ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Clever Hans on March 15, 2010, 07:06:35 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 15, 2010, 11:25:53 AM

Hans did you originally make the comment about Angela Hewitt sounding like a small bird pecking away gently at the paino keys below.......
I love that description and have used it a few times here  ;)

I think the reason I like her 1st set of WTC better is that she uses a Steinway and it has more power and stronger dymanic range, the new set with the lighter clearer toned Fasoli piano just accentuates the bird like quality.....

Yeah, it's also the acoustic the producers use. Personally, I think smoother sounding instruments have less character. But Fazioli this, Fazioli that.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on March 15, 2010, 07:22:30 PM
My, my.  Through the wonders of modern technology I've been able to hear a good bit of Koroliov's WTC.  At the risk of going just a wee bit overboard, I must say it sounds pretty damned near perfect to me.  I guess MDT (or some other vendor) will be getting another order for it in the near future.

I still like Schiff, however, and Crossland, and Hewitt as well, though I've yet to hear more than samples from her newer recording with the Fazioli.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 08:02:55 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 15, 2010, 07:22:30 PM
My, my.  Through the wonders of modern technology I've been able to hear a good bit of Koroliov's WTC.  At the risk of going just a wee bit overboard, I must say it sounds pretty damned near perfect to me.  I guess MDT (or some other vendor) will be getting another order for it in the near future.

I still like Schiff, however, and Crossland, and Hewitt as well, though I've yet to hear more than samples from her newer recording with the Fazioli.

The wonders of modern technology have led me to a similar conclusion.   If they ever offer the thing for sale in the states I may buy it.  Until then, I will be relying on the wonders of technology.

In the mean time, I'd like to add a set on harpsichord/clavichord and when I listen to the excerpts Watchorn just doesn't do it for me.  From what I've heard Glen Wilson appeals to me most, but the set is oop and rare.  I managed to pick up a used set of part II in good condition for a good price, but part I is a problem, it will show up eventually.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on March 17, 2010, 07:18:56 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 15, 2010, 07:22:30 PM
My, my.  Through the wonders of modern technology I've been able to hear a good bit of Koroliov's WTC.  At the risk of going just a wee bit overboard, I must say it sounds pretty damned near perfect to me.  I guess MDT (or some other vendor) will be getting another order for it in the near future.

Next
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on March 17, 2010, 07:33:56 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 17, 2010, 07:18:56 AM

As Bunny mentioned earlier here best way to get the Koroliov WTC and much more is in the Bach keyboard 16 CD Hanssler boxset for $40 from Berkshire Record Outlet.......mine is due to arrive tomorrow, I will post a picture of the contents

No, sir, that 16-disc-er does not contain the WTC. Goldbergs, Italian Concerto, and some other things filling up a CD or two, or four... but not the WTC. (If anything, they should have included Levin's WTC, to make it a completely PI affair.) But congratulations on the acquisition nevertheless. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 07:35:55 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 17, 2010, 07:18:56 AM

As Bunny mentioned earlier here best way to get the Koroliov WTC and much more is in the Bach keyboard 16 CD Hanssler boxset for $40 from Berkshire Record Outlet.......mine is due to arrive tomorrow, I will post a picture of the contents

Koroliov's WTC is on the Tacet label.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on March 17, 2010, 07:46:52 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 17, 2010, 07:33:56 AM
No, sir, that 16-disc-er does not contain the WTC. Goldbergs, Italian Concerto, and some other things filling up a CD or two, or four... but not the WTC. (If anything, they should have included Levin's WTC, to make it a completely PI affair.) But congratulations on the acquisition nevertheless. :)

OMG......you may be be right, will have to see tomorrow......how can there be no WTC?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on March 17, 2010, 07:51:31 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 17, 2010, 07:33:56 AM
No, sir, that 16-disc-er does not contain the WTC. Goldbergs, Italian Concerto, and some other things filling up a CD or two, or four... but not the WTC. (If anything, they should have included Levin's WTC, to make it a completely PI affair.) But congratulations on the acquisition nevertheless. :)
Beat me to it.  I just looked this up, too.  Not sure I really want Koroliov's WTC anyway, as subsequent listening indicates a a relentless quality that wears on me as Schiff or Hewitt, for instance, do not.  I heard it last night, and am hearing it again this morning. I'll keep listening, but already I'm less satisfied than that first impression suggested.

Here's a more complete listing from Arkiv's site: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=50261
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on March 17, 2010, 07:53:24 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 17, 2010, 07:46:52 AM

OMG......you may be be right, will have to see tomorrow......how can there be no WTC?

Correction: I am right. ;) You can find the list of contents at Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/dp/B00005QHY6/ref=asc_df_B00005QHY6415372/?tag=ciao-music-21&creative=7986&creativeASIN=B00005QHY6&linkCode=asn).

Actually, it does contain some portion of the WTC, except that it's not played by Koroliov but by Robert Hill. And as for the reason why it does not contain Koroliov's, look at Scarpia's post above yours. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Clever Hans on March 17, 2010, 08:06:31 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 17, 2010, 07:53:24 AM
Correction: I am right. ;) You can find the list of contents at Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/dp/B00005QHY6/ref=asc_df_B00005QHY6415372/?tag=ciao-music-21&creative=7986&creativeASIN=B00005QHY6&linkCode=asn).

Actually, it does contain some portion of the WTC, except that it's not played by Koroliov but by Robert Hill. And as for the reason why it does not contain Koroliov's, look at Scarpia's post above yours. :)

That's got to be wrong. The Hanssler box has Levin for WTC.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on March 17, 2010, 08:08:42 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on March 17, 2010, 08:06:31 AM
That's wrong. The Hanssler box has Levin for WTC.
Not according to the listings I've seen, such as the one linked above on Amazon Deutschland. But even if it did, that's still not Koroliov.

edit: From Presto's site:  the box (92568), described as vols 102-112  (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/hanssler.php?k=11&w=Edition+Bachakademie&page=15)

the page w/ vols 102-109 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/hanssler.php?k=11&w=Edition+Bachakademie&page=11)
the page w/ vols 110-112, plus Levin's WTC (116-117) (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/hanssler.php?k=11&w=Edition+Bachakademie&page=12)

Vol 112 is Koroliov's Goldbergs
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 08:19:44 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on March 17, 2010, 08:06:31 AM
That's got to be wrong. The Hanssler box has Levin for WTC.

The Hanssler box in question is Keyboard works, Part I.  It includes volumes 102-112 of their Bachacademie.  It lacks the English Suites, the French Suites, the Partitas, and both books of the WTC.   That stuff is presumably in Part II, which if it existed does not seem to be available anymore.

An orderly list of the series is here:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?page_size=50&name_id1=527&name_role1=1&genre=128&label_id=1084&bcorder=619

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on March 17, 2010, 08:21:27 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on March 17, 2010, 08:06:31 AM
That's got to be wrong. The Hanssler box has Levin for WTC.

Yes, Levin recorded the two books in their entirety on a harpsichord; Hill played those excerpts, perhaps, on a clavichord or a lute-harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: stingo on March 17, 2010, 08:29:11 AM
Has Pierre Hantai recorded Book 2 yet?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 17, 2010, 08:32:35 AM
Quote from: stingo on March 17, 2010, 08:29:11 AM
Has Pierre Hantai recorded Book 2 yet?

No.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 08:33:38 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 17, 2010, 08:21:27 AM
Yes, Levin recorded the two books in their entirety on a harpsichord; Hill played those excerpts, perhaps, on a clavichord or a lute-harpsichord.

I don't know what you mean.  The set includes numerous preludes and fugues performed by Hill, but they are not from the WTC (except one, an alternate version of which is part of the WTC).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 17, 2010, 08:37:24 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 17, 2010, 08:21:27 AM
Yes, Levin recorded the two books in their entirety on a harpsichord;

And organ, clavichord and fortepiano.  Levin's a versatile man.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on March 17, 2010, 08:38:41 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 08:33:38 AM
I don't know what you mean.  The set includes numerous preludes and fugues performed by Hill, but they are not from the WTC (except one, an alternate version of which is part of the WTC).

Just a couple of preludes, then, from the second book. (Tracks 74 and 77.) I incorrectly assumed that the subsequent tracks contained the associated fugues.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on March 17, 2010, 08:40:38 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 17, 2010, 08:37:24 AM
And organ, clavichord and fortepiano.  Levin's a versatile man.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Holden on March 17, 2010, 03:20:48 PM
I went back and relistened to my copy of Feinberg and it's still obvious that this is a superb version of the WTC. I have (or have heard):

Schiff - too pedantic
Jando - well played but lacking something I can't put my finger on
Barenboim - quite similar to Feinberg in some respects but without the brio. His ability to 'orchestrate' the fugues is so well done.
Richter - various P&Fs only. I though I had the whole set. Having heard some of his 1954 recital in Hungary maybe I should invest in his complete undertaking.

I would like to audition the Roger Woodward.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on March 17, 2010, 03:32:28 PM
Quote from: Holden on March 17, 2010, 03:20:48 PM
Schiff - too pedantic
Pedantic?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 17, 2010, 10:48:00 PM
Quote from: Holden on March 17, 2010, 03:20:48 PM
I went back and relistened to my copy of Feinberg and it's still obvious that this is a superb version of the WTC. I have (or have heard):

Schiff - too pedantic

Assuming you're using "pedantic" to indicate an obsession with little details, I agree that Schiff sometimes falls into this category; however, I think there's far less of this effect in his WTC than in his other Bach/Decca recordings.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on March 18, 2010, 10:41:13 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 17, 2010, 10:48:00 PM
Assuming you're using "pedantic" to indicate an obsession with little details, I agree that Schiff sometimes falls into this category; however, I think there's far less of this effect in his WTC than in his other Bach/Decca recordings.

Well, how many other pianists have accompanied their Beethoven sonata cycles with musicological lectures?  Or publicly justify varying the recorded order of the Bach Partitas with this reasoning: "If we start with the G major Partita, the keys of the six works form a hexachord: G-a-B flat-c-D-e, with the major and minor modes evenly distributed among the ascending pitches and the sunlit, graceful G-major work forming an ingratiating and appropriate opening."  (From the liner notes of his ECM recording of the Partitas.)  Hmm, actually, it would be just like Bach to do that, actually.  Only thing missing is speculation about a missing Partita in F.  Of course, this doesn't prevent the man who actually wrote the liner notes for the release to justify the vulgate order of the Partitas with another Bachian numerological exercise.)  Other than Glenn Gould, how many pianists would be up for such an exercise?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on March 18, 2010, 10:47:07 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 17, 2010, 10:48:00 PM
Assuming you're using "pedantic" to indicate an obsession with little details, I agree that Schiff sometimes falls into this category; however, I think there's far less of this effect in his WTC than in his other Bach/Decca recordings.

Really I find nothing "pedantic" about Schiff's Bach recordings.  Expressive yet graceful, if I were limited to a single characterization. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on March 18, 2010, 11:16:46 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 18, 2010, 10:47:07 AM
Really I find nothing "pedantic" about Schiff's Bach recordings.  Expressive yet graceful, if I were limited to a single characterization.

To be clear, I think very highly of the actual recording of the Partitas--and also very highly of the Beethoven cycle.

I have in fact three recordings of the Partitas--Gould, Perahia and this one by Schiff.  I have a high opinion of all three, but it's the Schiff I like best--he seems to make the music dance better than the other two.

But his approach to the music can be at times justifiably be called pedantic.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Holden on March 18, 2010, 06:06:09 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on March 18, 2010, 10:41:13 AM
Well, how many other pianists have accompanied their Beethoven sonata cycles with musicological lectures?  Or publicly justify varying the recorded order of the Bach Partitas with this reasoning: "If we start with the G major Partita, the keys of the six works form a hexachord: G-a-B flat-c-D-e, with the major and minor modes evenly distributed among the ascending pitches and the sunlit, graceful G-major work forming an ingratiating and appropriate opening."  (From the liner notes of his ECM recording of the Partitas.)  Hmm, actually, it would be just like Bach to do that, actually.  Only thing missing is speculation about a missing Partita in F.  Of course, this doesn't prevent the man who actually wrote the liner notes for the release to justify the vulgate order of the Partitas with another Bachian numerological exercise.)  Other than Glenn Gould, how many pianists would be up for such an exercise?

QuoteAssuming you're using "pedantic" to indicate an obsession with little details, I agree that Schiff sometimes falls into this category;
Your correct in seeing this as part of my interpretation of the word pedantic. It's the "can't see the woods for the trees" effect.

I found his LvB pedantic as well. The only Bach of Schiff's I've heard is the WTC and that put me off any other of his Bach recordings.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on March 18, 2010, 07:00:41 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 18, 2010, 10:47:07 AM
Really I find nothing "pedantic" about Schiff's Bach recordings.  Expressive yet graceful, if I were limited to a single characterization.
We sure seem to be agreeing frequently these days.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 18, 2010, 07:44:58 PM
Quote from: Holden on March 18, 2010, 06:06:09 PM

Your correct in seeing this as part of my interpretation of the word pedantic. It's the "can't see the woods for the trees" effect.

I found his LvB pedantic as well. The only Bach of Schiff's I've heard is the WTC and that put me off any other of his Bach recordings.

Okay.  One recording where Schiff delivers the full sweep of Bach's music is his Goldbergs on ECM.  I bet you would like it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Holden on March 19, 2010, 01:41:45 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 18, 2010, 07:44:58 PM
Okay.  One recording where Schiff delivers the full sweep of Bach's music is his Goldbergs on ECM.  I bet you would like it.

I probably would but all of my Schiff experiences have not been positive. I will check it out.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on March 20, 2010, 06:49:57 AM
Yet another (?) Tureck (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_April10/232923.htm).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 20, 2010, 06:52:22 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 20, 2010, 06:49:57 AM
Yet another (?) Tureck (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_April10/232923.htm).

The DG set came out in 1953, FWIW.

On another note, I wasn't aware that the Beatles had started a Classical CD label.  ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Holden on March 25, 2010, 02:33:24 AM
Well, I think I have found my ultimate version of the WTC and it won't really be a surprise.

I found a site that gave me a streaming file of all of BkI and another with all of BkII and this has just blown me away. This is heart on your sleeve Bach and it explores the depths of this wonderful music like no other version I've heard.

Yes, the Feinberg was great but Sviatoslav Richter speaks directly to me in a way that I never thought possible. OK, the sound is rather tubby but the range of both emotion and intellect that SR brings out of this music is just awe inspiring. All I have to do now is find a copy.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 25, 2010, 03:04:05 AM
Quote from: Holden on March 25, 2010, 02:33:24 AM
Yes, the Feinberg was great but Sviatoslav Richter speaks directly to me in a way that I never thought possible. OK, the sound is rather tubby but the range of both emotion and intellect that SR brings out of this music is just awe inspiring. All I have to do now is find a copy.

Which one? The RCA, the live at Innsbruck or the one on Russian Revelation (April 1969)?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Holden on March 26, 2010, 12:28:36 AM
George - this is the one I listened to.

(http://www.russiandvd.com/store/assets/product_images/imgs/front/31651.jpg)

If the Innsbruck is better I'd like to know. The RR only seems to have Bk I.

Please advise.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on March 26, 2010, 01:05:57 AM
Quote from: Holden on March 26, 2010, 12:28:36 AM
George - this is the one I listened to.

(http://www.russiandvd.com/store/assets/product_images/imgs/front/31651.jpg)

Trovar lists that one as being the same as the one on RCA, but the RCA Book two is not available singly, so if you are unable to find the Olympia issue of book two, you'd need to buy books one and two together on RCA to get book two. I think books one and two were reissued on another label during the last few years, but I don't have more info on that, sorry. I think it was discussed in the Richter thread sometime last year. I recall that the sound was reportedly better than on previous issues of this material. BTW, I haven't compared the sound of the RCA and the Olympia, as I don't have the Olympia, only the RCA. I do have the remastered book one on RCA and the complete set issued earlier and I find the sound on the complete set to be a bit better.     

This is the RCA complete set that I own:

(http://jazzymas.com/oscommerce/images/bach.j.s.0035626094928.jpg)

Quote
If the Innsbruck is better I'd like to know. The RR only seems to have Bk I.

Yes, I believe RR is only available in Bk I. I haven't had a chance to compare it to the Innsbruck or the RCA/Olympia yet. I can say that the Innsbruck set is OOP and extremely rare.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: sTisTi on April 05, 2010, 10:09:58 AM
OK, so I've read 33 pages of WTC discussion, but no mention of Walcha? I've tried to find more information about this set as the Third Ear Guide to Classical Music is so enthusiastic about Walcha's WTC. They lamented that (back in 2003) his two recordings (EMI 1961 and Archiv 1974) were OOP and raved about the "intellectuality, supreme consistency and penetration into the world of the 48" and the reviewer considered it the best harpsichord WTC set ever, preferable to Gilbert, Moroney, Vernet, Leonhardt and others.

So now I discovered that EMI has indeed reissued a 5 CD box with Walcha's WTC, Goldberg Variations and 2 & 3 Part Inventions & Sinfonias:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IXmnJFF0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Clavier-Tempere-Inventions-Variations-Goldberg/dp/B000V1Z0CQ/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1270483416&sr=1-6

I found samples only at Amazon.fr and the short (29 seconds) and heavily compressed files are difficult to evaluate regarding the sound quality. As for interpretation, Walcha takes many Preludes and Fugues considerably slower than my other harpsichord set (Van Asperen on Virgin), but the Third Ear commentary may be right, it definitely feels more "penetrating" than the at times slightly superficial van Asperen, which I like quite well otherwise.

What are your opinions on this set? Is the 3rd Ear reviewer right or are there now much better sets (on harpsichord) that also dig deep into the music?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on April 05, 2010, 10:16:31 AM
Quote from: sTisTi on April 05, 2010, 10:09:58 AM
What are your opinions on this set? Is the 3rd Ear reviewer right or are there now much better sets (on harpsichord) that also dig deep into the music?

Haven't heard the Walcha, but the 3rd Ear guide has guided me to hundreds of great performances. I love that book!  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on April 05, 2010, 10:23:38 AM
I know Antoine Marchand recently purchased that set, persuaded by premont, who is a local Bach/Harpsichord enthusiast (pardon the understatement ;D).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on April 05, 2010, 10:28:36 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on April 05, 2010, 10:23:38 AM
I know Antoine Marchand recently purchased that set, persuaded by premont, who is a local Bach/Harpsichord enthusiast (pardon the understatement ;D).

OK, so far it is just you. ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on April 05, 2010, 10:38:08 AM
Quote from: sTisTi on April 05, 2010, 10:09:58 AM
OK, so I've read 33 pages of WTC discussion, but no mention of Walcha? I've tried to find more information about this set as the Third Ear Guide to Classical Music is so enthusiastic about Walcha's WTC. They lamented that (back in 2003) his two recordings (EMI 1961 and Archiv 1974) were OOP and raved about the "intellectuality, supreme consistency and penetration into the world of the 48" and the reviewer considered it the best harpsichord WTC set ever, preferable to Gilbert, Moroney, Vernet, Leonhardt and others.

What are your opinions on this set? Is the 3rd Ear reviewer right or are there now much better sets (on harpsichord) that also dig deep into the music?

I have written quite much about Walcha, among other this about his harpsichord recordings (from the thread:Bach on the harpsichord):

Helmut Walcha the harpsichordist is (was) not that different from Helmut Walcha the organist.

The EMI recordings (originally Odeon, Germany) were made in the years 1958 – 62 (he later rerecorded the WTC for Archiv on period instruments) and  include

Clavierübung I, II  and IV.
Wohltemperierte Clavier I & II
English and French suites
Inventions & Symphonies
Chromatic Fantasy & Fugue

The complete recordings were rereleased by Japanese HMV on CD more then ten years ago, and it was difficult to get hold of and very expensive. Since long OOP. The only European CD rerelease is the French 5CD HMV box displayed in you post above.

The used instrument is a two manual Ammer modern harpsichord (16´ , 8´, 8´, 4´, and lute stop), built - as it was common in the 1950es - with pianistic ideals in mind and not taking surviving period instruments into account. The sound is not crisp at all but rather harsh and metallic.

The recording was engineered by Eric Thienhaus, who preferred a very close miking. This resulted in a more harsh sound than necessary, but on the other hand added quite a lot of intensity to the sound. A more recent parallel as to effect might be Kovacevic´s EMI Bethoven Sonata recordings.

Stylistically Walcha was entirely his own. He grew up in the time of the organ movement, which – as you know - constituted a reaction towards romanticism -  and had intruduced an ascetic, platonic view upon Bach´s works. Only what was written in the original score should be played (Werktreue). In my opinion they actually confused the score with the work. So Walcha on his own hand (while he was retired to the countryside – in Bruchköbel - during the war) worked out his interpretation of the harpsichord works based upon the naked score and which for the same reason was bound to stress the elementary elements which are notated in the score (rhythm and counterpoint).

In practice his tempi are often fast. His playing is insistent rhythmically but also stiff and mechanical, including the metrical execution of ornamentation. And he never adds ornamentation, even when the music cries out for this. On the other hand his part playing is outstanding and very clear, - this may be the greatest force of his music making. He uses rather much 16´ in his registrations, and this is probably justified, as Bach had access to such instruments and was known to prefer Gravitas at least in organ-registration. Walcha built up his own system of articulation, which implies more legato, than now is considered decent. What e.g. annoys me very much, is his preference for overtied upbeats creating rhythmically odd syncopated effects. His touch is rather forceful  (the effect stressed by the close miking) as if he was playing on a mechanical tracker organ with a heavy action.

What stands out as being the hallmarks of his playing, is his ability to display the intellectual structure (the counterpoint at most) of Bach´s music by means of his extraordinary clear part playing. At the same time his insistent rhythm and forceful touch endows the music with very much intensity, often bordering a kind of extasy. So in addition to his intellectual approach, his music making also has got a strong physical effect. This reflects in my opinion the intrinsic nature of Bach´s music, and it is in this synthesis where Walcha may be considered unsurpassable, even if he - from a HIP point of view - got some of the details wrong. Personally I consider his EMI harpsichord recordings mandatory for every Bach-lover.



Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 05, 2010, 11:30:55 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on April 05, 2010, 10:23:38 AM
... who is a local Bach/Harpsichord enthusiast (pardon the understatement ;D).

I would prefer: "harpsichord connoisseur". It's more elegant and proper in this case.   :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on April 05, 2010, 11:33:39 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 05, 2010, 11:30:55 AM
I would prefer: "harpsichord connoisseur". It's more elegant and proper in this case.   :)

There's no fun in saying that. ::)

;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 05, 2010, 12:14:46 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on April 05, 2010, 11:33:39 AM
There's no fun in saying that. ::)

;)

This is our other harpsichord connoisseur, but unfortunately you can see him frequently commanding the pianophile troops:  :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: sTisTi on April 06, 2010, 08:52:24 AM
Quote from: George on April 05, 2010, 10:16:31 AM
Haven't heard the Walcha, but the 3rd Ear guide has guided me to hundreds of great performances. I love that book!  :)
Me too, much more trustworthy than e.g. the Penguins, although I share the latters aversion to Glenn Gould ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: sTisTi on April 06, 2010, 08:56:36 AM
Quote from: premont on April 05, 2010, 10:38:08 AM
...
What stands out as being the hallmarks of his playing, is his ability to display the intellectual structure (the counterpoint at most) of Bach´s music by means of his extraordinary clear part playing. At the same time his insistent rhythm and forceful touch endows the music with very much intensity, often bordering a kind of extasy. So in addition to his intellectual approach, his music making also has got a strong physical effect. This reflects in my opinion the intrinsic nature of Bach´s music, and it is in this synthesis where Walcha may be considered unsurpassable, even if he - from a HIP point of view - got some of the details wrong. Personally I consider his EMI harpsichord recordings mandatory for every Bach-lover.

Thanks a lot for your evaluation! Sounds mandatory to me as well ;)
However, I'm worried that I might not like the actual sound of the harpsichord as you described it. I wonder whether there are some samples available online with better quality than on Amazon.fr? :-\
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on April 06, 2010, 10:44:26 AM
Quote from: sTisTi on April 06, 2010, 08:56:36 AM
Thanks a lot for your evaluation! Sounds mandatory to me as well ;)
However, I'm worried that I might not like the actual sound of the harpsichord as you described it. I wonder whether there are some samples available online with better quality than on Amazon.fr? :-\

Here are a few examples, which I uploaded some time ago. It is not the WTC or the Goldbergs, but the sound is characteristic of the instrument and his playing. My sources were LP releases, digitalized by myself.


Chromatic Fantasy (without Recitativo and Fugue):

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ebm0a1jd5hz/Chromatic fantasy.wav


English suite no.3,Sarabande:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/x2m0tmzqizg/English suite 3  Sarabande.wav


Partita no.6, Gigue:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jny0d0t2hje/Partita no 6 Gigue.wav
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: sTisTi on April 09, 2010, 01:29:24 PM
Quote from: premont on April 06, 2010, 10:44:26 AM
Here are a few examples, which I uploaded some time ago. It is not the WTC or the Goldbergs, but the sound is characteristic of the instrument and his playing. My sources were LP releases, digitalized by myself.
Thank you!
First of all, congratulations for your good digitalization efforts - I doubt that the actual CD release will be much better considering it's a late 1950s/early 1960s recording 8)
As for the harpsichord sound, I actually like it better than some period harpsichords I've heard. No problem at all for me, so time to grab a copy of the 5 CD box while it's still in print...

I guess Walcha's 1974 Archiv recording never made it to CD?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on April 10, 2010, 05:40:17 AM
Quote from: sTisTi on April 09, 2010, 01:29:24 PM
Thank you!
First of all, congratulations for your good digitalization efforts - I doubt that the actual CD release will be much better considering it's a late 1950s/early 1960s recording 8)
As for the harpsichord sound, I actually like it better than some period harpsichords I've heard. No problem at all for me, so time to grab a copy of the 5 CD box while it's still in print...

I guess Walcha's 1974 Archiv recording never made it to CD?

You are wellcome. :)


Walchas Archiv WTC recording was available at amazon.fr in a French DG CD release until maybe one or two years ago, but it is now OOP.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 10, 2010, 10:43:51 PM
I like Walcha's Ammer harpsichord a lot -- colouful and regal.

He is an outrageous performer. How can anyone have the chutzpah to play the F major prelude from Book 2 like that?

But he is very addictive, and, as been said, revealing. And I think the instrument is just beautiful.

Thanks to Premont he has become a firm favourite.

BTW, for those of you who use torrents, his complete Bach, including the suites and partitas, is easily available.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on April 10, 2010, 10:50:25 PM
Quote from: premont on April 05, 2010, 10:38:08 AM
I have written quite much about Walcha, among other this about his harpsichord recordings (from the thread:Bach on the harpsichord):


I forgot to mention then: a very striking and accurate description of Walcha's style. :) Sufficient to say that it's not my cup of tea. ::) 8)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: rubio on April 11, 2010, 01:54:50 AM
Quote from: Que on April 10, 2010, 10:50:25 PM
I forgot to mention then: a very striking and accurate description of Walcha's style. :) Sufficient to say that it's not my cup of tea. ::) 8)

Q

Who are your favourites in the WTC using harpsichord, Que?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on April 11, 2010, 02:16:03 AM
Quote from: rubio on April 11, 2010, 01:54:50 AM
Who are your favourites in the WTC using harpsichord, Que?

Glen Wilson (Warner/ Teldec) and Ottavio Dantone (Arts).

See previous posts HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.msg257814/topicseen.html#msg257814) and HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.msg133655.html#msg133655).   :) And should Rousset ever do a WTC (and he will do so quite soon, I think), I would unhesitatingly get that as well.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: rubio on April 11, 2010, 03:04:10 AM
Quote from: Que on April 11, 2010, 02:16:03 AM
Glen Wilson (Warner/ Teldec) and Ottavio Dantone (Arts).

See previous posts HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.msg257814/topicseen.html#msg257814) and HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.msg133655.html#msg133655).   :) And should Rousset ever do a WTC (and he will do so quite soon, I think), I would unhesitatingly get that as well.

Q

Thanks, I will try one of them :).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 11, 2010, 07:33:42 AM
WTC Bks. I & II w/ Roger Woodward - arrived earlier in the week from 'across the pond (MDT, just over $40 for 5 CDs) - Bk. I is packaged as 2 discs in a single-sized jewel box, while Bk. II consists of 3 discs also packaged in a single-size jewel box; both fit nicely into a well-constructed cardboard box - a nice 'save saver' -  :D

Woodward recorded these works in two periods (January & August, 2008) in Bavaria on a Hamburg Steinway D piano.  The booklets are extensive (German & English translations) with notes written by the pianist, and entitled In Search of a Performance Practice; an extensive review of the keyboard practices of the times, and Bach's own approaches toward composing, performance, and teaching on a wide variety of keyboards available to him at the time; sometimes too technical for me, but I'm sure instructive for those who are period keyboard performers.

I really enjoy the sound of this piano, of course in part related to Woodward's interpretations of these varied works and the recording engineering.  The timbre of the piano is pleasant and the sound near ambient quality.  Plus, Woodward plays with a finesse and lyricism that just does not 'tire on the ears' as has been true for me in other recordings that I've heard.

For other thoughts, the recording was selected for the Editor's Choice for The Gramophone February, 2010 issue; in addition, there are plenty of outstanding reviews on Woodward's Website HERE (http://www.rogerwoodward.com/) - SO, is this now one of the top WTC choices on piano - well, it is GOOD!  I still own (and plan to keep) Jill Crossland.  I'll be quite curious to hear the opinions of others on Woodward's WTC (and other recordings - this is my first experience w/ this pianist).

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachWTCIWoodward/831838665_nc6Rc-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachWTCIIWoodward/831838675_owqng-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Verena on April 11, 2010, 07:54:24 AM
Also VERY promising, IMO: Zhu Xiao-Mei's upcoming WTC I, her WTC II has already been released:
http://www.mirare.fr/DisquesMirare/Zhu-Clavier-Livre1.html
Zhu Xiao-Mei is not very well-known, but there are quite a few people who consider her Bach Partitas to be among the very best, and possible THE best complete recording of these works on the piano - myself included.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on April 11, 2010, 08:05:20 AM
Haven't encountered you before, Verena.  Welcome aboard!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Verena on April 11, 2010, 08:34:27 AM
QuoteHaven't encountered you before, Verena.  Welcome aboard!

Thanks a lot, David!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on April 11, 2010, 12:25:43 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 11, 2010, 07:33:42 AM
WTC Bks. I & II w/ Roger Woodward - arrived earlier in the week from 'across the pond (MDT, just over $40 for 5 CDs) - Bk. I is packaged as 2 discs in a single-sized jewel box, while Bk. II consists of 3 discs also packaged in a single-size jewel box; both fit nicely into a well-constructed cardboard box - a nice 'save saver' -  :D

Woodward recorded these works in two periods (January & August, 2008) in Bavaria on a Hamburg Steinway D piano.  The booklets are extensive (German & English translations) with notes written by the pianist, and entitled In Search of a Performance Practice; an extensive review of the keyboard practices of the times, and Bach's own approaches toward composing, performance, and teaching on a wide variety of keyboards available to him at the time; sometimes too technical for me, but I'm sure instructive for those who are period keyboard performers.

I really enjoy the sound of this piano, of course in part related to Woodward's interpretations of these varied works and the recording engineering.  The timbre of the piano is pleasant and the sound near ambient quality.  Plus, Woodward plays with a finesse and lyricism that just does not 'tire on the ears' as has been true for me in other recordings that I've heard.

For other thoughts, the recording was selected for the Editor's Choice for The Gramophone February, 2010 issue; in addition, there are plenty of outstanding reviews on Woodward's Website HERE (http://www.rogerwoodward.com/) - SO, is this now one of the top WTC choices on piano - well, it is GOOD!  I still own (and plan to keep) Jill Crossland.  I'll be quite curious to hear the opinions of others on Woodward's WTC (and other recordings - this is my first experience w/ this pianist).

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachWTCIWoodward/831838665_nc6Rc-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachWTCIIWoodward/831838675_owqng-O.jpg)

I continue to love Woodward's set; I take to these slowish and thought-provoking performances like a duck to water.  Sets from Martins and Vieru are also in this category.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on April 11, 2010, 04:28:54 PM
I ordered the Belder set on Brilliant Classics - the price is right and I'm interested in hearing what all the fanfare is about. 

The only other Brilliant release I remember acquiring is the Barshai/Shostakovich Sym. cycle.  Nothing against the label, but their releases often have discs I already own from the original companies.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 11, 2010, 04:59:34 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 11, 2010, 12:25:43 PM
I continue to love Woodward's set; I take to these slowish and thought-provoking performances like a duck to water.  Sets from Martins and Vieru are also in this category.

Don - thanks for the comments above - Woodward is indeed a joy for continuous listening!  :D

BTW - I compared Bk. I of Jill Crossland & Woodward this afternoon and enjoyed both - Crossland more mellow but both a melodic & lyric approach to this music; enjoy both - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on April 11, 2010, 05:11:33 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 11, 2010, 04:28:54 PM
I ordered the Belder set on Brilliant Classics - the price is right and I'm interested in hearing what all the fanfare is about. 

The only other Brilliant release I remember acquiring is the Barshai/Shostakovich Sym. cycle.  Nothing against the label, but their releases often have discs I already own from the original companies.

They do release original recordings.  The artists generally seem to be Europeans whom I've never heard of and/or are young performers who have recently won one or another European competition--and at Brilliant's price level, they're certainly worth it.    The only bad recording of theirs I've come across is a live performance of a Vivaldi opera (Il Teuzzone) that would have been better left unperformed, not to mention unrecorded, by this particular lot of performers--weak voices, stilted singing, all amplified by apparently being recorded from somewhere backstage.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on April 11, 2010, 10:00:10 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 11, 2010, 04:28:54 PM
I ordered the Belder set on Brilliant Classics - the price is right and I'm interested in hearing what all the fanfare is about

The only other Brilliant release I remember acquiring is the Barshai/Shostakovich Sym. cycle.  Nothing against the label, but their releases often have discs I already own from the original companies.

You've read some positive comments about it? :)

On Brilliant, they do original releases as well. Belder's recently started Soler series might interest you.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidW on April 12, 2010, 06:11:53 AM
Quote from: Que on April 11, 2010, 10:00:10 PM
You've read some positive comments about it? :)

I'm just as surprised!  His unmusical playing with no sensitivity, nuance or style got positive comments from someone!? :o
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on April 12, 2010, 06:13:59 AM
Quote from: Que on April 11, 2010, 10:00:10 PM
You've read some positive comments about it? :)

Fanfare Magazine/Dubins was very positive, and ARG/Haskins praised Belder's performances.  Leaving them aside, I just listened to all the clips provided on JPC - sounds excellent to me.  So I have high expectations for the set when it arrives. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on April 12, 2010, 06:26:24 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 12, 2010, 06:11:53 AM
I'm just as surprised!  His unmusical playing with no sensitivity, nuance or style got positive comments from someone!? :o

Yes, and you can add my name to those someones.  I sure don't find anything unmusical about Belder.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 12, 2010, 06:47:05 AM
IMO, Pieter-Jan Belder plays an excellent Bach. I have the best impression of his performances in these discs:

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Belder-K03-2%5BBCL%5D.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on April 12, 2010, 09:37:24 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 12, 2010, 06:11:53 AM
I'm just as surprised!  His unmusical playing with no sensitivity, nuance or style got positive comments from someone!? :o

Quote from: Bulldog on April 12, 2010, 06:26:24 AM
Yes, and you can add my name to those someones.  I sure don't find anything unmusical about Belder.

Quote from: Bulldog on April 12, 2010, 06:13:59 AM
Fanfare Magazine/Dubins was very positive, and ARG/Haskins praised Belder's performances.  Leaving them aside, I just listened to all the clips provided on JPC - sounds excellent to me.  So I have high expectations for the set when it arrives. 

I was just informing after reviews, and am not surprised about the answer since my own impressions of listening to the samples on jpc were also quite positive.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on April 12, 2010, 09:55:18 AM
Quote from: Que on April 12, 2010, 09:37:24 AM
I was just informing after reviews, and am not surprised about the answer since my own impressions of listening to the samples on jpc were also quite positive.

Q

Just two comments.  Although I was impressed with the Belder samples, I'm also aware that clips are not worthy alternatives to listening to an entire work on the audio equipment one loves.  Second, a disc can sound quite good in isoloation but less engrossing when immediately compared to a different version.

I remember when I first acquired the Beausejour set of Bk. 1; the set was very enjoyable.  Then I listened to the Vieru on Alpha, and the Beausejour paled in comparison. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on April 12, 2010, 11:07:18 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 12, 2010, 09:55:18 AM
Just two comments.  Although I was impressed with the Belder samples, I'm also aware that clips are not worthy alternatives to listening to an entire work on the audio equipment one loves.  Second, a disc can sound quite good in isoloation but less engrossing when immediately compared to a different version.

I am aware of that as well - the taste of the pudding is in the eating. So, I'll be interested what you'll make of it - in Bach's harpsichord music our tastes do seem (occasionally  ;)) to align!  :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Clever Hans on April 12, 2010, 11:55:35 AM
Quote from: Verena on April 11, 2010, 07:54:24 AM
Also VERY promising, IMO: Zhu Xiao-Mei's upcoming WTC I, her WTC II has already been released:
http://www.mirare.fr/DisquesMirare/Zhu-Clavier-Livre1.html
Zhu Xiao-Mei is not very well-known, but there are quite a few people who consider her Bach Partitas to be among the very best, and possible THE best complete recording of these works on the piano - myself included.

+1
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 12, 2010, 02:33:32 PM
Quote from: Que on April 11, 2010, 10:00:10 PM

On Brilliant, they do original releases as well. Belder's recently started Soler series might interest you.

David - agree w/ Q w/ the above; I bought into Belder's Soler recordings (2 vols. w/ 4 discs) - thoroughly enjoyed the experience - his playing was excellent and the harpsichords used pleasant to my ears.  Now I also own Belder's Vol. 1 (3 discs) of the Scarlatti works  but have not played that set in a while, so don't want to commit myself, although I'd love to obtain Scott Ross (at the right price!) - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on April 12, 2010, 09:30:43 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 12, 2010, 02:33:32 PM
David - agree w/ Q w/ the above; I bought into Belder's Soler recordings (2 vols. w/ 4 discs) - thoroughly enjoyed the experience - his playing was excellent and the harpsichords used pleasant to my ears.  Now I also own Belder's Vol. 1 (3 discs) of the Scarlatti works  but have not played that set in a while, so don't want to commit myself, although I'd love to obtain Scott Ross (at the right price!) - Dave  :D

I am personally not so keen on Belder's Scarlatti. Which is perhaps surprising because Scarlatti and Soler are somewhat "related" composers, but Belder has with Soler a musical chemistry that his Scarlatti lacks.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on April 16, 2010, 08:58:55 AM
I've been listening the last few days to the Bernard Roberts 4-disc set.  Although Roberts doesn't come close to plumbing the depths of the music, I have to say that his performances are very elegant and thoroughly enjoyable.  Best of all, the recorded sound is the best I've heard for this repertoire on piano.

I should point out that Roberts is a different pianist in live recitals where he reveals an adventurous penchant not found in his Bach/Nimbus recordings.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on April 16, 2010, 01:23:52 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 16, 2010, 08:58:55 AM
I've been listening the last few days to the Bernard Roberts 4-disc set.  Although Roberts doesn't come close to plumbing the depths of the music, I have to say that his performances are very elegant and thoroughly enjoyable.  Best of all, the recorded sound is the best I've heard for this repertoire on piano.

I should point out that Roberts is a different pianist in live recitals where he reveals an adventurous penchant not found in his Bach/Nimbus recordings.

Thanks, Don.

A quick aside - I would advise against Roberts's Beethoven, in case you haven't already bought it. The cheap price makes it attractive, but many, many better cycles can be had.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on April 16, 2010, 02:16:31 PM
Quote from: George on April 16, 2010, 01:23:52 PM
Thanks, Don.

A quick aside - I would advise against Roberts's Beethoven, in case you haven't already bought it. The cheap price makes it attractive, but many, many better cycles can be had.

I bought a few of the Roberts/Beethoven discs quite a few years ago, and I agree that the performances are not among the top echelon.  However, they were my first Beethoven solo piano acquisitions so I have a little warm spot for Roberts.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on April 18, 2010, 11:16:45 AM
My copy of the Belder set arrived a couple of days ago; I've listened to both Books one time.  Although early in the evaluation process, I am very pleased with the performances.  I had read that the harpsichord used in Bk. 1 was inferior to the one in Bk. 2.  Although the latter was much richer in sound, I didn't have any problem with Bk. 1; rather thin but tangy (raising the bass is a good idea).

As for the performances themselves, Belder doesn't engage much in rhythmic hesitations, staggering of musical lines or other agogic expressions.  Also, he does not dig deeply into Bach's dark side.  However, I love his rhythmic patterns, his frequent use of different registrations in the repeats, and what I hear as a deep-seated joy and exuberance.  Revealing the detail of Bach's counterpoint isn't a big priority for Belder, but his "washes of sound" are exhilarating.

Considering the low cost, acquiring the set is a "no-brainer".  Belder costs much less than Jando or Beausejour on Naxos while easily beating them in quality. 8)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on May 12, 2010, 02:50:27 PM
A complete WTC I wasn't aware of comes from pianist Gianluca Luisi on the Centaur label.  The performances are slowish and often understated, without much of a trace of depth or maturity.  Probably best to take a pass.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on May 12, 2010, 02:55:11 PM
Acquired this one, which is no small feat.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lCenC-TwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have wanted it because it is one of the few sets that used clavichord (on part I).  It is out of print, for a long while there was one used copy on amazon for 100 bucks.  Then another popped in the $20 range, which I snapped up.  Now there are none again.  Well, I'll see if it was worth the trouble.
 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on May 12, 2010, 03:03:28 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 12, 2010, 02:55:11 PM
Acquired this one, which is no small feat.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lCenC-TwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have wanted it because it is one of the few sets that used clavichord (on part I).  It is out of print, for a long while there was one used copy on amazon for 100 bucks.  Then another popped in the $20 range, which I snapped up.  Now there are none again.  Well, I'll see if it was worth the trouble.


It is rather sad that Hyperion dumped this set; I suppose that has something to do with Hewitt's piano sets.

Anyways, you do get that variety of instrumentation between Bks. 1 and 2.  My sole complaint is that Tilney sometimes comes across as superficial, but the $20 price tag makes the set worth owning.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on May 12, 2010, 03:28:52 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 12, 2010, 03:03:28 PM
It is rather sad that Hyperion dumped this set; I suppose that has something to do with Hewitt's piano sets.

Anyways, you do get that variety of instrumentation between Bks. 1 and 2.  My sole complaint is that Tilney sometimes comes across as superficial, but the $20 price tag makes the set worth owning.

I suspect the reason for the premature deletion is simply poor sales.  In any case, my litmus test for the WTC is Bk I, Fugue in c-minor.  It is wonderful in this set.  I was hoping they would re-release it in their helios line, but for a bit over $20, why wait?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on May 12, 2010, 03:41:40 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 12, 2010, 03:28:52 PM
I suspect the reason for the premature deletion is simply poor sales.  In any case, my litmus test for the WTC is Bk I, Fugue in c-minor.  It is wonderful in this set. 

With 96 fantastic pieces of music, I wouldn't have any idea which one to use as a litmus test.  You are a most interesting person.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on May 12, 2010, 03:45:18 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 12, 2010, 03:41:40 PM
With 96 fantastic pieces of music, I wouldn't have any idea which one to use as a litmus test.  You are a most interesting person.

Listening to 96 samples is hopeless, and I just like that fugue.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Holden on May 13, 2010, 02:08:31 AM
Having just acquired this

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PfjX2F3LL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I am in awe of these performances, especially Book I.  I also have the Feinberg and his Book II is a rival for the Richter but certainly doesn't surpass it.

Both pianists adopt a somewhat 'romantic' approach to the music but it is in no way facile. The Richter Moscow Book I also came into my possession recently and it confirms for me that Richter is one of the greatest Bach performers.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on May 13, 2010, 02:37:00 AM
Quote from: Holden on May 13, 2010, 02:08:31 AM
Both pianists adopt a somewhat 'romantic' approach to the music but it is in no way facile. The Richter Moscow Book I also came into my possession recently and it confirms for me that Richter is one of the greatest Bach performers.

I love the Feinberg too, Holden. The Moscow performance you mention is the one on the Russian Revelation label, correct? I was lucky enough to come across that one late last year and hadn't check it out yet. It is playing now.  8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on May 13, 2010, 06:28:25 AM
Quote from: Holden on May 13, 2010, 02:08:31 AM
Having just acquired this

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PfjX2F3LL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I am in awe of these performances, especially Book I.  I also have the Feinberg and his Book II is a rival for the Richter but certainly doesn't surpass it.

Both pianists adopt a somewhat 'romantic' approach to the music but it is in no way facile. The Richter Moscow Book I also came into my possession recently and it confirms for me that Richter is one of the greatest Bach performers.

I love Feinberg's WTC  but am not a big fan of Richter's WTC and don't really find them very similar. In the slower and mid tempo sections Feinberg has more clarity and forward momentum, more distinct melodic long line, Richter is slower amd more diffuse....a sort of meandering about feel for me. I get a more cohesive impression from Feinberg compared to Richter
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: sTisTi on May 13, 2010, 07:13:04 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 12, 2010, 02:55:11 PM
Acquired this one, which is no small feat.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lCenC-TwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have wanted it because it is one of the few sets that used clavichord (on part I).  It is out of print, for a long while there was one used copy on amazon for 100 bucks.  Then another popped in the $20 range, which I snapped up.  Now there are none again.  Well, I'll see if it was worth the trouble.


For anyone interested, it is also available as a lossless download (FLAC format) directly from the Hyperion website for 23.99 GBP... :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Holden on May 14, 2010, 01:57:56 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on May 13, 2010, 06:28:25 AM

I love Feinberg's WTC  but am not a big fan of Richter's WTC and don't really find them very similar. In the slower and mid tempo sections Feinberg has more clarity and forward momentum, more distinct melodic long line, Richter is slower amd more diffuse....a sort of meandering about feel for me. I get a more cohesive impression from Feinberg compared to Richter

No, they are not similar but neither of them follow what could be considered a classic/standard approach to playing the WTC like Tureck or Gould. Both pianists are aware of how the sonorities of the piano could be used to present the music. There is no attempt to impersonate the clavier or harpsichord. Both see the possibilities of the music.

What many forget is that the indications of the composer regarding tempo and expression are indistinct and a wide range of interpretations are possible. The music making of Feinberg and Richter appeals to me and in the long run this is all that matters.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on May 14, 2010, 02:31:23 AM
Quote from: Holden on May 14, 2010, 01:57:56 AM
...what could be considered a classic/standard approach to playing the WTC like Tureck or Gould.

I do not really understand the meaning of "a classic/standard approach" to playing the WTC on piano. And even if I did, I would consider Tureck and Gould to be so far away from that standard as might be possible. Didn´t they both set their own standard (good or bad - if you want)? Standard approach -  well, I rather think of Jando.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on May 14, 2010, 06:31:01 AM
Quote from: premont on May 14, 2010, 02:31:23 AM
I do not really understand the meaning of "a classic/standard approach" to playing the WTC on piano. And even if I did, I would consider Tureck and Gould to be so far away from that standard as might be possible. Didn´t they both set their own standard (good or bad - if you want)? Standard approach -  well, I rather think of Jando.

Agreed.  I've never thought there was a standard approach to playing the WTC; also, Tureck and Gould are miles apart concerning their Bach interpretations.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 06:33:48 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 14, 2010, 06:31:01 AM
Agreed.  I've never thought there was a standard approach to playing the WTC; also, Tureck and Gould are miles apart concerning their Bach interpretations.

I interpreted it as meaning an approach which values clarity of voice leading over "romantic" aspects, such and expressiveness or dynamics.  Gould and Turek are in the same camp, from that point of view, I would say.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on May 14, 2010, 09:31:46 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 06:33:48 AM
I interpreted it as meaning an approach which values clarity of voice leading over "romantic" aspects, such and expressiveness or dynamics.  Gould and Turek are in the same camp, from that point of view, I would say.

I can't see why "clarity" would be the standard over all other considerations.

I think that the notion of a standard for Bach playing is nonsense.

Edit:  I should have mentioned that clarity of voice, especially for contrapuntal music, is always important, but it doesn't carry the day by itself.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 11:20:28 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 14, 2010, 09:31:46 AM
I can't see why "clarity" would be the standard over all other considerations.

I think that the notion of a standard for Bach playing is nonsense.

Edit:  I should have mentioned that clarity of voice, especially for contrapuntal music, is always important, but it doesn't carry the day by itself.

Well, for the WTC, standard to me means performance on a harpischord.  Performed on a piano you are listening to a transcription, of sorts.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 10:37:09 AM
Just wanted to share this with the group.  Yesterday, I must have listened to the Fugue in F sharp minor of BK. 2 at least ten times in a row (Belder/Brilliant Classics).  It's such a fantastic piece of sublime intensity that sears its way into my soul; also, I find the mix of austerity and lyricism totally compelling.  Doesn't hurt that Belder's interpretation is about the most rewarding I've ever heard.

I remember that a board member stated a few weeks ago that he found Belder's set unmusical.  I still can't get a decent handle on that remark.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on August 19, 2010, 11:20:28 AM
Does Belder play the piano or hapsichord, Don?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on August 19, 2010, 11:25:00 AM
Quote from: George on August 19, 2010, 11:20:28 AM
Does Belder play the piano or hapsichord, Don?

The set is probably dirt cheap since it is released by BC IIRC.  But then in classical music, price is not always the determining factor for performance ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 11:38:58 AM
Quote from: George on August 19, 2010, 11:20:28 AM
Does Belder play the piano or hapsichord, Don?

Harpsichord.  I managed to listen to the 30 second except on amazon.  It was the wrong 30 seconds.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on August 19, 2010, 11:50:25 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 11:38:58 AM
Harpsichord.  I managed to listen to the 30 second except on amazon.  It was the wrong 30 seconds.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 12:36:07 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 11:38:58 AM
Harpsichord.  I managed to listen to the 30 second except on amazon.  It was the wrong 30 seconds.

FWIW, Amazon has clips for every prelude and fugue.

Which clip did you listen to?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 12:38:15 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 19, 2010, 11:25:00 AM
But then in classical music, price is not always the determining factor for performance ...

Make that "infrequently" and I'd agree with you.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 19, 2010, 12:41:10 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 12:36:07 PM
FWIW, Amazon has clips for every prelude and fugue.

Which clip did you listen to?

Bk I, Fugue in c-minor.  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 12:43:14 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 12:36:07 PM
FWIW, Amazon has clips for every prelude and fugue.

Which clip did you listen to?

Sorry, I listened to the one you suggested, but the 30 seconds was inadequate to get any impression of the performance.  It sounded like the initial exposition.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 19, 2010, 12:46:31 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 12:43:14 PM
Sorry, I listened to the one you suggested, but the 30 seconds was inadequate to get any impression of the performance.  It sounded like the initial exposition.

You betrayed yourself, Scarpia!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 12:50:28 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 19, 2010, 12:46:31 PM
You betrayed yourself, Scarpia!

But A. M., I've already listened to the sample for Bk. 1 c-minor, it didn't pass my test, which is why I don't have it already.  But I was curious what Bulldog was talking about so I ventured an alternate test.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 19, 2010, 12:54:47 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 12:50:28 PM
But A. M., I've already listened to the sample for Bk. 1 c-minor, it didn't pass my test, which is why I don't have it already.  But I was curious what Bulldog was talking about so I ventured an alternate test.

Just to be sure, I understand now.  ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 01:39:57 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 12:43:14 PM
Sorry, I listened to the one you suggested, but the 30 seconds was inadequate to get any impression of the performance.  It sounded like the initial exposition.

Okay.  I went to Amazon and also listened to the 30 seconds of the Fugue in F sharp minor.  I agree - you can't tell anything from that sample.  That's why such short samples can be a waste of time.  The piece has a natural progression and inevitability that's thrown under the bus by the sample.

I could say that if you listened to the entire fugue, you would likely love it.  However, you've got me totally stumped concerning your tastes.  All I know is that you are very particular, so it's best that I keep that in mind.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 01:50:12 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 01:39:57 PM
Okay.  I went to Amazon and also listened to the 30 seconds of the Fugue in F sharp minor.  I agree - you can't tell anything from that sample.  That's why such short samples can be a waste of time.  The piece has a natural progression and inevitability that's thrown under the bus by the sample.

I could say that if you listened to the entire fugue, you would likely love it.  However, you've got me totally stumped concerning your tastes.  All I know is that you are very particular, so it's best that I keep that in mind.

I'm tempted to get it.  However this observation gives me pause.  Of the WTC, I have about 6 versions on piano, of which I have actually listened to 4.  I have about 6 versions on harpsichord, of which I have listened to 1.   So my appetite for harpsichord performance exceeds my ability to digest it. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 02:23:42 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 01:50:12 PM
I'm tempted to get it.  However this observation gives me pause.  Of the WTC, I have about 6 versions on piano, of which I have actually listened to 4.  I have about 6 versions on harpsichord, of which I have listened to 1.   So my appetite for harpsichord performance exceeds my ability to digest it.

If I had six harpsichord versions and had only listened to one, I sure wouldn't acquire more of them.  I'd either get back to the other five or scratch the whole project.  The WTC is a necessity of life for me; clearly you can continue living the good life without it.

Out of curiosity, are there some works or composers you find a necessity pretty much on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 02:29:57 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 02:23:42 PM
If I had six harpsichord versions and had only listened to one, I sure wouldn't acquire more of them.  I'd either get back to the other five or scratch the whole project.  The WTC is a necessity of life for me; clearly you can continue living the good life without it.

Out of curiosity, are there some works or composers you find a necessity pretty much on a daily basis.

If I had to pick one composer it would Brahms.  There is something of every style in Brahms. 

If there is music I would like to hear on a daily basis it would be Bach.  I like to listen to a selection of Bach each time I seriously listen to music.  I have never tried to listen to a substantial part of the WTC at a sitting.  It is usually a pair of preludes and fugues, maybe four.  But with all of the wonderful instrumental music Bach has written I don't cycle around to the WTC that often.   Unfortunately I don't have s much time to listen to music as I would like.  I feel fortunate if I can find time to listen to some music every day.

For the WTC, on piano I enjoy my Schiff and Hewitt most often.  Recently I've been making my way through Ashkenazy, which is not spectacular.  I've got Crosswind and Woodward on deck, and Guilda which I owned once upon a time, sold, and now have again.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 03:26:20 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 02:29:57 PM

For the WTC, on piano I enjoy my Schiff and Hewitt most often.  Recently I've been making my way through Ashkenazy, which is not spectacular.  I've got Crosswind and Woodward on deck, and Guilda which I owned once upon a time, sold, and now have again.

Crosswind is a nice name, but Jill prefers Crossland. ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 03:27:27 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 03:26:20 PM
Crosswind is a nice name, but Jill prefers Crossland. ;D

Now who's particular?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 03:31:30 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 03:27:27 PM
Now who's particular?

I laughed at that one. 8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 09:26:41 PM
Listened to the Fugue in F-sharp minor from Book II, Ashkenazy's recording (the one I've been working through recently).  A beautiful work.  Ashkenazy's performance isn't particularly revelatory, but he maintains admirable clarity of the voices throughout.  His fingers are still working well, even if he doesn't have a particular way with Bach.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 10:36:30 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 19, 2010, 09:26:41 PM
Listened to the Fugue in F-sharp minor from Book II, Ashkenazy's recording (the one I've been working through recently).  A beautiful work.  Ashkenazy's performance isn't particularly revelatory, but he maintains admirable clarity of the voices throughout. 

I did the same and agree that Ashkenazy plays it well, but his sound is a little too bloated for me.  Crossland also plays it excellently in sound I find more agreeable.  Both versions are more mellow than Belder; some of that is due to instrumentation.  All else being equal, the harpsichord does Bach's austerity more convincingly than the piano.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on August 19, 2010, 11:44:52 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 10:37:09 AM
Just wanted to share this with the group.  Yesterday, I must have listened to the Fugue in F sharp minor of BK. 2 at least ten times in a row (Belder/Brilliant Classics).  It's such a fantastic piece of sublime intensity that sears its way into my soul; also, I find the mix of austerity and lyricism totally compelling.  Doesn't hurt that Belder's interpretation is about the most rewarding I've ever heard.

I found Belder sounding rather promising on the basis of on line samples (yes! ;D).

Don, thanks for the "heads up" I will put Belder on the need-to-investigate-list! :) Though I'm happy with Glen Wilson and Ottavio Dantone, and am eagerly anticipating a possible WTC by Rousset, I do not have yet a recording by a member of he Dutch School... I found the Old Master (Leonhardt) and Van Asperen not quite there - too conservative.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 20, 2010, 08:33:13 PM
Quote from: Que on August 19, 2010, 11:44:52 PM
I found Belder sounding rather promising on the basis of on line samples (yes! ;D).

Don, thanks for the "heads up" I will put Belder on the need-to-investigate-list! :) Though I'm happy with Glen Wilson and Ottavio Dantone, and am eagerly anticipating a possible WTC by Rousset, I do not have yet a recording by a member of he Dutch School... I found the Old Master (Leonhardt) and Van Asperen not quite there - too conservative.

Q

The Old Master? I really hate that nickname, dear Q. It's so condescending to talk about the greatest harpsichordist alive, both historical and artistically.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on August 20, 2010, 11:31:26 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 20, 2010, 08:33:13 PM
The Old Master? I really hate that nickname, dear Q. It's so condescending to talk about the greatest harpsichordist alive, both historical and artistically.

It must have different ring to it in your ears than mine, Antoine. I regret that it lead to a presumption of a lack of respect on my part.

I mean it in reverence and respect to his (historical and artistic) stature in the musical world, certainly not as condescending. The term is in the Dutch context associated with legendary painters like Rembrandt, Vermeer, Rubens etc. "Old Master" is not to be taken literally, though he is 82, but referring to the fact that he is kind of the arch-father of the harpsichord world and the HIP-movement, who taught many major harpsichord players of today. It is hard to make comparisons in greatness, but he indeed was and still is very influential as the (co-)founder of a new musical tradition.

Anyway, I think I'll play a recording by Leonhardt this morning! 8)

Instead on dwelling on these unpleasantries...

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on August 21, 2010, 04:44:47 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 19, 2010, 03:26:20 PM
Crosswind is a nice name, but Jill prefers Crossland. ;D
Better than Breakwind....
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on August 21, 2010, 09:02:27 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 21, 2010, 04:44:47 AM
Better than Breakwind....

That's a good one. ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 21, 2010, 09:06:54 AM
Quote from: Que on August 20, 2010, 11:31:26 PM
It must have different ring to it in your ears than mine, Antoine. I regret that it lead to a presumption of a lack of respect on my part.

I mean it in reverence and respect to his (historical and artistic) stature in the musical world, certainly not as condescending. The term is in the Dutch context associated with legendary painters like Rembrandt, Vermeer, Rubens etc. "Old Master" is not to be taken literally, though he is 82, but referring to the fact that he is kind of the arch-father of the harpsichord world and the HIP-movement, who taught many major harpsichord players of today. It is hard to make comparisons in greatness, but he indeed was and still is very influential as the (co-)founder of a new musical tradition.

Anyway, I think I'll play a recording by Leonhardt this morning! 8)

Instead on dwelling on these unpleasantries...

Q

I am sorry if my comment was unpleasant, Q. But "Old Master" sounds to me in the same way that "Papa" Haydn, for instance. Although maybe it's just a preconception of mine.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on August 21, 2010, 09:16:51 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 21, 2010, 09:06:54 AM
I am sorry if my comment was unpleasant, Q. But "Old Master" sounds to me in the same way that "Papa" Haydn, for instance. Although maybe it's just a preconception of mine.

I consider those terms very positive. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on August 21, 2010, 09:49:17 AM
Quote from: Que on August 19, 2010, 11:44:52 PM
I found Belder sounding rather promising on the basis of on line samples (yes! ;D).


Q

I will buy the set outright, it is dirt cheap anyway and at worst, it will be an inexpensive mistake.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DarkAngel on August 21, 2010, 10:23:08 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 21, 2010, 09:49:17 AM
I will buy the set outright, it is dirt cheap anyway and at worst, it will be an inexpensive mistake.

Never hurts to have cheap price.......
Belder is not one of my favorite harpsichord performers but I suspect his straight forward style is more suited to Bach WTC than it was to Scarlatti sonatas where I have heard much of his work.

I actually sold off all his Scarlatti sonata Cds after getting Scott Ross complete boxset and owning multiple Cds by Hantai, Sempe, Staier for instance.....all display a more dramatic imaginative performance style.

Hantai interesting can be equally fine playing playing dramatic flambouyant Scarlatti sonatas or Bach and so are a few others.........I am slightly tempted to get the Belder boxset, but not in any hurry.

I would be interested in getting comments from Que since I know he is big Scott Ross Scarlatti fan and we both strongly favor Glen Wilson's harpsicord WTC
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on August 21, 2010, 10:30:55 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 21, 2010, 09:06:54 AM
I am sorry if my comment was unpleasant, Q. But "Old Master" sounds to me in the same way that "Papa" Haydn, for instance. Although maybe it's just a preconception of mine.
Quote from: Bulldog on August 21, 2010, 09:16:51 AM
I consider those terms very positive.
Me, too.
(As did a certain W.A. Mozart.)

In my case, it might be strictly personal ;):
my papa is a nice person, and he's an old master in errr .... gardening.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 21, 2010, 10:44:16 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 21, 2010, 09:16:51 AM
I consider those terms very positive.

Quote from: Marc on August 21, 2010, 10:30:55 AM
Me, too.
(As did a certain W.A. Mozart.)

They seem very positive, indeed; but can be easily used as a "condescending" -I never said pejorative- term.

I think this article on the Wiki illustrates well my point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papa_Haydn

   


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on August 21, 2010, 11:58:40 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 21, 2010, 10:44:16 AM
They seem very positive, indeed; but can be easily used as a "condescending" -I never said pejorative- term.

I think this article on the Wiki illustrates well my point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papa_Haydn
Mmm .... maybe this explains why I'm such a retro and HIP dude ;): only (huhu) interested in the authentic approach ....
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on August 21, 2010, 12:49:25 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on August 21, 2010, 10:23:08 AM

Never hurts to have cheap price.......
Belder is not one of my favorite harpsichord performers but I suspect his straight forward style is more suited to Bach WTC than it was to Scarlatti sonatas where I have heard much of his work.

I actually sold off all his Scarlatti sonata Cds after getting Scott Ross complete boxset and owning multiple Cds by Hantai, Sempe, Staier for instance.....all display a more dramatic imaginative performance style.

FWIW  :) I also tried and dumped a set of Belder's Scarlatti sonatas - rather "wooden", effortfull and on the dry side.

I do like Belder's Soler sonatas, however, very much so. Sometimes a performer and a composer make a happy connection, sometimes not. :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 21, 2010, 02:19:38 PM
Quote from: Que on August 19, 2010, 11:44:52 PM
... am eagerly anticipating a possible WTC by Rousset...

If Rousset follows the path traced by him in his Klavierbüchlein für Wilhelm Friedemann, that set will be the fastest and furious among all harpsichord versions in existence.

Quote from: Que on August 21, 2010, 12:49:25 PM
FWIW  :) I also tried and dumped a set of Belder's Scarlatti sonatas - rather "wooden", effortfull and on the dry side.

I've heard about the half of his Scarlatti integral and my opinion is totally different to yours. I like Belder's stern approach, playing that music as it were great, substantial music  and not merely virtuosistic games (like in Hantaï) or simple folk Spanish tunes. Additionally, the recorded sound and variety of instruments are just superb. BTW, I also own and enjoy Scott Ross here, but the balance is slowly changing towards Belder and I can imagine to me enjoying his discs for several years.

Quote from: Que on August 21, 2010, 12:49:25 PM
I do like Belder's Soler sonatas, however, very much so. Sometimes a performer and a composer make a happy connection, sometimes not. :)

I totally agree; Belder plays a fantastic Soler and recently was released the third volume of that series.  :)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on August 23, 2010, 10:43:12 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 07, 2010, 03:14:01 PM
But you have to carry them around; I like to travel light.  Boy, that sure sounds lame.  I need to come up with a better reason.  Here it is - if Bach didn't need a cell phone, I don't need one either.  That sucks too.  Oh well, I'll just have to go with being contrary; it's in my nature.

I was reading previous postings on this thread and noticed the above posting and another one where I stated my goal was to be the last remaining adult in the U.S. without a cell phone.

As it happens, I asked for a cellphone for Father's Day and that's just what I got.  Haven't used it for much so far.
Being contrary was getting to be a drag, especially when I'm doing some shopping and need to get some info. from my wife.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Brahmsian on August 23, 2010, 10:46:52 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 23, 2010, 10:43:12 AM
I was reading previous postings on this thread and noticed the above posting and another one where I stated my goal was to be the last remaining adult in the U.S. without a cell phone.

As it happens, I asked for a cellphone for Father's Day and that's just what I got.  Haven't used it for much so far.
Being contrary was getting to be a drag, especially when I'm doing some shopping and need to get some info. from my wife.

That's OK Don, I'm happy to take over this goal.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on August 23, 2010, 04:31:50 PM
Quote from: Brahmsian on August 23, 2010, 10:46:52 AM
That's OK Don, I'm happy to take over this goal.

Not so fast.  You're in competition with me.

My own view of cell phones is this: if it's that important that someone needs to get a hold of me that quickly, then it's almost certainly something I don't want to know about.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: MN Dave on October 04, 2010, 06:02:59 AM
I have a few recordings of this and enjoy them all. I think Bach shines through no matter the interpretation. This music does something quite pleasant to my mind; it's as if I have an addiction to his solo instrumental works and nothing else will satisfy.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on October 04, 2010, 06:10:28 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on August 23, 2010, 10:43:12 AM
I was reading previous postings on this thread and noticed the above posting and another one where I stated my goal was to be the last remaining adult in the U.S. without a cell phone.

As it happens, I asked for a cellphone for Father's Day and that's just what I got.  Haven't used it for much so far.
Being contrary was getting to be a drag, especially when I'm doing some shopping and need to get some info. from my wife.

The secret is not to tell anyone your cell number.  The other secret is not to call anyone's cell phone with your cell phone.  Then your cell number gets automatically stored in their phone.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 25, 2010, 04:07:37 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 16, 2009, 07:39:18 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NXCKE1PHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Have been enjoying the Kirkpatrick/Archiv WTC set on clavicord from 1960s, the unique sound quality had me doing some basic research to see exactly how clavicord produces sound. Clavicord uses metal wires that are struck from above and sound can vary by amount of force used to strike key and length of time key is depressed, thereby giving it some expressive features missing from harpsicord play. The volume level is low however making it primarily a solo use instrument (or small intimate chamber group).

Has a delicate intricate sound that can reveal many musical harmonies, I liked it more than I thought I would, but only as a supplement to piano & harpsicord. The lack of volume projection can be offset with close miking for solo work, but still sounds a bit anemic overall compared to piano & harpsicord, dramatic contrasts are minimized

Anyone else like these or have any other clavicord versions to recommend?

I am enjoying  this a lot  for the colours and the intimacy and the relative objectivity of the style.

To what extent is this played on an authentic instrument -- a reconstruction of something which really existed in Bach's time?

Or is it that degree of refinement and evolution  here is so far in excess of anything Bach would have known that it really is a travesty?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on October 25, 2010, 06:15:01 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 16, 2009, 07:39:18 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NXCKE1PHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)Anyone else like these or have any other clavicord versions to recommend?

In this set book I is performed on clavichord.  It is OOP and impossible to find used, but Hyperion still sells it as a lossless download.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lCenC-TwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on October 25, 2010, 04:32:05 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 25, 2010, 04:07:37 AM
I am enjoying  this a lot  for the colours and the intimacy and the relative objectivity of the style.

To what extent is this played on an authentic instrument -- a reconstruction of something which really existed in Bach's time?

Or is it that degree of refinement and evolution  here is so far in excess of anything Bach would have known that it really is a travesty?

I have the WTC I & II by Kirkpatrick as well.  He did have some pretty unique performance style.  A long time professor of music at Yale and he was the American Gustav Leonhardt ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on October 26, 2010, 02:47:56 PM
Just wanted to share my story of two complete WTC's from Richard Egarr and Pieter-Jan Belder.

I listened repeatedly to Belder's Bk. 1 for a couple of weeks.  Although not emotionally rich, Belder was very rewarding for the youthful energy he supplied and the different registrations he used in the repeats.  As for his harpsichord, it did sound rather thin but with a nice tangy quality.  Then, I switched to Egarr's Bk. 1 and was amazed at how much more rich and nuanced he played than Belder; I was already aware that Egarr is not one of the more nuanced keyboardists on the block.

Okay, I then started in with Belder's Bk. 2.  What a difference from Bk. 1!  Now Belder is an artist who wants to savor Bach's music.  On top of that, the harpsichord used in Bk. 2 has a much richer sound/more alive.  I really love his Bk. 2.  On to Egarr's Bk. 2 where his nuances only match those in his Bk. 1.  Belder easily surpasses Egarr here.

Overall, I think that Belder had a plan for his interpretations - to go from youthful declarations in Bk. 1 to a mature and highly involved set of performances in Bk. 2, a progression that Egarr does not recognize as he plays both Books in the same manner.

What's your opinion on the differences/similarities between these two sets?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Henk on November 20, 2010, 04:24:37 AM
I'm not a fan of van Asperen's recording (Virgin). It's sounds as a definitive, timeless interpretation (as mentioned by another member in this thread), but I find it rather dull.

Henk
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on November 20, 2010, 05:00:16 AM
Quote from: Henk on November 20, 2010, 04:24:37 AM
It's sounds as a definitive, timeless interpretation (as mentioned by another member in this thread), but I find it rather dull.

Henk

Definitive and dull? :-\
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Henk on November 20, 2010, 05:04:10 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 20, 2010, 05:00:16 AM
Definitive and dull? :-\

I think van Asperen tried to record a definitive version and in certain ways it is, I can hear it, but this is not the way you should perform I think. It doesn't work and with such a performance the music gets dull. It's too much interpretated with no personal feel / touch to it. Van Asperen as an artist and performer isn't present and therefor fails imo.

Henk
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on November 20, 2010, 06:03:02 AM
Quote from: Henk on November 20, 2010, 04:24:37 AM
I'm not a fan of van Asperen's recording (Virgin). It's sounds as a definitive, timeless interpretation (as mentioned by another member in this thread), but I find it rather dull.

Henk

I have that set and find it to be decent.  It is by no means a definitive performance.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on November 20, 2010, 08:04:53 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on October 26, 2010, 02:47:56 PMI listened repeatedly to Belder's Bk. 1 for a couple of weeks.  Although not emotionally rich, Belder was very rewarding for the youthful energy he supplied and the different registrations he used in the repeats.  As for his harpsichord, it did sound rather thin but with a nice tangy quality.  Then, I switched to Egarr's Bk. 1 and was amazed at how much more rich and nuanced he played than Belder; I was already aware that Egarr is not one of the more nuanced keyboardists on the block.

I'm confused.  You say the switch to Egarr revealed a more rich and nuanced interpretation, but in the next sentence you say Egarr is generally not nuanced, as though your previous statement is a confirmation of this.  I'm missing your meaning.  If I try to take it literally, you are saying Egarr is not nuanced, but Belder is so uber-not nuanced he makes Egarr sound nuanced by comparison?   I must be missing something.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on November 20, 2010, 08:59:31 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 20, 2010, 08:04:53 AM
I'm confused.  You say the switch to Egarr revealed a more rich and nuanced interpretation, but in the next sentence you say Egarr is generally not nuanced, as though your previous statement is a confirmation of this.  I'm missing your meaning.  If I try to take it literally, you are saying Egarr is not nuanced, but Belder is so uber-not nuanced he makes Egarr sound nuanced by comparison?   I must be missing something.

Okay, I'll try to clear this up.  Egarr's Bk. 1 is much more nuanced than Belder's Bk. 1.  However, in the universe of recordings, Egarr is not highly nuanced.  He only appears highly nuanced in comparision to Belder.

In Book 2, Belder is the more nuanced interpreter.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 20, 2010, 09:15:52 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on November 20, 2010, 08:59:31 AM
In Book 2, Belder is the more nuanced interpreter.

... (only) in comparison to Egarr or generally speaking?  ;D

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on November 20, 2010, 09:34:12 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on November 20, 2010, 08:59:31 AM
Okay, I'll try to clear this up.  Egarr's Bk. 1 is much more nuanced than Belder's Bk. 1.  However, in the universe of recordings, Egarr is not highly nuanced.  He only appears highly nuanced in comparision to Belder.

In Book 2, Belder is the more nuanced interpreter.

Pardon me, but I'm a quantitative person.  You're saying the average performer has nuance coefficient 0.5, Egarr is generally at 0.4, but since Belder has nuance coefficient 0.1, Egarr is very nuanced by comparison.   ;D

That's what I thought, although I thought maybe you were saying that, though Egarr is generally not so nuance, he outdid himself in this particular recording.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on November 20, 2010, 09:45:47 AM
You are confused person, Scarpia! :P :D (Oh, sorry; you have confusion co-efficient (C_c) of 1.0923 +/- 0.0004, 0<=C_c<=1.)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on November 20, 2010, 09:47:31 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 20, 2010, 09:34:12 AM
Pardon me, but I'm a quantitative person.  You're saying the average performer has nuance coefficient 0.5, Egarr is generally at 0.4, but since Belder has nuance coefficient 0.1, Egarr is very nuanced by comparison.   ;D

That's what I thought, although I thought maybe you were saying that, though Egarr is generally not so nuance, he outdid himself in this particular recording.

That's pretty much on target.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on November 20, 2010, 09:49:29 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 20, 2010, 09:45:47 AM
You are confused person, Scarpia! :P :D (Oh, sorry; you have confusion co-efficient (C_c) of 1.0923 +/- 0.0004, 0<=C_c<=1.)

How is that coefficient calculated anyway?   ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on November 20, 2010, 09:49:39 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 20, 2010, 09:15:52 AM
... (only) in comparison to Egarr or generally speaking?  ;D

Not only in comparison to Egarr, but also in comparison to his own Bk. 1; that's the comparison that really impresses me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on November 20, 2010, 09:51:12 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on November 20, 2010, 09:49:29 AM
How is that coefficient calculated anyway?   ;D

Sounds like we need a mathematics thread.  Does Henk agree?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Henk on December 12, 2010, 04:30:54 AM
Listen online to Daniel Ben Pienaar's WTC:

http://www.magnatune.com/artists/pienaar
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PaulSC on December 15, 2010, 11:45:45 PM
Well, I've just stumbled onto a marvelous recording of WTC I that seems never to have been mentioned here at GMG (and likewise never reviewed at the online sites I browse). The performer is Russian pianist Alexander Korolev. I admit I spotted his recording while searching for Evgeni Koroliov's renditions of WTC I+II. No relation, of course -- I'm still in pursuit of the latter, which I'll probably end up getting on CD from a mail-order source. Meanwhile I'm delighted with my accidental discovery of Korolev.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EnKk5U24L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

I know next to nothing about this pianist. His solo discography seems slim -- there's some Romantic-era  repertoire up on YouTube, but I haven't clicked Play. There's an Alexander Korolev who plays the trumpet part of Shostakovitch Op. 35 alongside pianist Vladimir Krainev on a disc I spotted -- that's probably just a coincidence of names, right?

Anyway, Korolev's WTC I is probably the most animated/energetic treatment of this music that I've heard -- on a par with Hantaï, and similar in spirit though of course very different in sound. But Korolev's playing is nuanced, his generally fast tempos are immaculately controlled, and slower pieces like the E flat minor Prelude and the B flat minor fugue have plenty of poetry in them. While Korolev plays deep into the keys like a good Russian, he never "pounds" out subject statements. Pieces with a dance character, like the C-sharp major Prelude, really shine. I love how he plays the walking bass of the B minor Prelude legato on the first pass and staccato on the second, to cite one of many appealing interpretive touches.

Sonically the record is good, I wouldn't say great, and I should add that I've been listening to it only in mp3 format. A quibble: some low notes in the Bb major Prelude are badly out of tune. (The worst of the lot can be heard during the 30-second preview (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0036B535W/ref=dm_dp_trk41) at Amazon.) If you can forgive this isolated fault, and if the high-energy conception of the music isn't entirely contrary to your tastes, I recommend a closer look at the set. Amazon seems to be selling it only as mp3 downloads.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PaulSC on December 15, 2010, 11:53:10 PM
(The Korolev YouTubes turn out to be mostly of the home-movie variety. Some fine piano performances, but nothing that belongs on a commercial recording.)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on December 18, 2010, 06:43:06 PM
Quote from: George on December 06, 2009, 05:41:20 PM
Yes, I have three, though for 1969 only Book One was released.

1. '70, '72, '73 - Salzburg Studio (RCA)
2. '73 - Live at Insbruck (Victor)
3. '69 - Live (Revelation)

What about this CD set, George?
* Sviatoslav Richter - Collection Box (10cd, Japan)
* Recorded in August - September 1972, February 1973 in Salzburg
* JAPAN. STEREO 20bit K2 Mastering DIGITAL K2 Cutting 2003
This is the best sounding Recordings of Sviatoslav Richter's Well-Tempered Clavier in the market?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 18, 2010, 07:15:38 PM
Quote from: czgirb on December 18, 2010, 06:43:06 PM
What about this CD set, George?
* Sviatoslav Richter - Collection Box (10cd, Japan)
* Recorded in August - September 1972, February 1973 in Salzburg
* JAPAN. STEREO 20bit K2 Mastering DIGITAL K2 Cutting 2003
This is the best sounding Recordings of Sviatoslav Richter's Well-Tempered Clavier in the market?

I can't say, as I don't have that one, sorry.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on December 20, 2010, 04:27:31 PM
Quote from: George on December 18, 2010, 07:15:38 PM
I can't say, as I don't have that one, sorry.

What about Inventions & Sinfonias, George? Whose recording you preferred?
I only own Schiff & Gould ... i think their both good.

Oh yes! I wonder why there is no Schiff's WTC recording within USA ... it's a pity.
Regarding to Well-Tempered, I only have Gould (CD), Landowska (LP), Schiff (CD), & Tureck(CD).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on December 20, 2010, 04:41:30 PM
Quote from: czgirb on December 20, 2010, 04:27:31 PM
Oh yes! I wonder why there is no Schiff's WTC recording within USA ... it's a pity.

You meant WTC by Schiff is unavailable in the US?  Of course, it is ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on December 20, 2010, 06:05:56 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 20, 2010, 04:41:30 PM
You meant WTC by Schiff is unavailable in the US?  Of course, it is ...
Yup! Why? Schiff' is my first WTC
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 22, 2010, 07:15:50 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on December 21, 2010, 11:01:17 PM
Thank you for mentioning these, Don. When I was browsing available performances of the Inv/Sinf earlier this year, I skipped right over the Aeolus disc based on its unpromising title/cover. My mistake; van Asperen always deserves consideration, and the performances do seem wonderful based on previews at Amazon. (Besides, "never judge a book by its cover", right?)

Sonically I wish the room weren't so live -- these "lessons" seem to be taking place in the school gymnasium -- but I got used to that within two or three tracks. So many musically persuasive details in these interpretations; for instance, I love the choice of the lute stop for the A minor Invention -- so different from the usual approach to this one.

btw do you have any thoughts on the Korolev WTC 1 I mentioned upthread a bit?

Glad you like the van Asperen.

I listened to an hour of the Korolev WTC I on RussianDVD - very rewarding.  I knew it would be exceptional when I heard his Prelude in C major which is highly nuanced and reads like a fine story.  Thanks for bringing up this wonderful  set.  And don't forget about the Koroliov; that's also a winner.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PaulSC on December 26, 2010, 02:04:00 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 26, 2010, 08:51:47 AM
Just last night I was listening to the 3rd disc of Watchorn's WTC II set - very illuminating.  I don't recall ever hearing a harpsichord tone so alluring as Watchorn's; always interesting and gorgeous.  Also, the use of the Lehman tuning system clearly enhances the effect.
There are so many compelling harpsichord versions -- Gilbert, Leonhardt, Glen Wilson, Hantaï, Dantone, Verlet, the list goes on! -- that I'm finding I choose my favorites in large part based on the inherent sound of the instrument. Of course there has to be an inspired performer seated at the keyboard too. So two that have risen to the top for me are Watchorn and Suzuki. (But I would never want to be without Gilbert, and I'll soon have Wilson out from the library for a fresh listen.)

I'm finding that Watchorn fares especially well in the pieces that are also suitable for organ performance (e.g. Bk II D maj). His sustained tone, fuller registration choices, and unhurried tempos all contribute, and the pedal rank gives a depth to some of the bass-register statements and pedal-points that no other harpsichord recording matches (e.g. the firmly grounded conclusions of Bk I C maj and Bk II E maj prelude, and the grand bass statement at the end of the Bk I C min fugue). Those aren't Watchorn's only virtues: I also love his momentum and varied articulations in the Bk II E min fugue, for instance -- in fact this p/f might be the first pair I'd play for someone new to Watchorn's set. This cycle isn't perfect, and some of the weaker moments come early. The Bk I C# maj prelude feels rushed in a few spots, and  the D maj prelude in Bk I and G maj fugue in Bk II suffer from moments of uneven fingerwork.

As for Suzuki, I've been listening to his recent traversal of Bk II, and I've fallen in love with the lean, wiry sound of his instrument (evidently a signature of instrument maker Willem Kroesbergen's work). This more delicate timbre reinforces the transparency and flow of Suzuki's playing. While he never matches the majesty and grandeur of Watchorn's most compelling performances, I can listen straight through Suzuki's more intimate cycle and not feel anything is missing. For what it's worth I've not yet given much attention to Suzuki's earlier recording of Bk I. There's a surplus of recordings of this first book, since several great artists, including Fellner and Hantaï have not (yet?) covered Bk II...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 06:52:45 PM
Well, I have a gift card for Amazon and I believe it is almost time to act on a set of WTC's...both books, of course.  So, I will take some time and read through these 39 pages that you folks kindly contributed to.  I will do some sampling and then make my choice. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 06:57:33 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on September 22, 2008, 01:20:19 PM
I wouldn't want to try to convince anyone that my opinion of Gould's WTC is the one that others should hold or adopt, particularly for a body of music that is compelling in so many different types of interpretation.  There are folks who find Gould not very musical, but I'm not one of them.  If you don't like how Gould plays the Prelude in C major, perhaps you won't care much for his other performances of the set.

I gather you're not a fan of the fortepiano; that's fine.  As for Tureck's DG complete set, yes the price is quite high, but this set is probably the most compelling classical music performance I have ever heard.  So as far as I'm concerned, the cost means nothing.  And don't forget her other sets on BBC Legends.  Of course, if you don't take well to Tureck (and plenty don't), you'll feel like a big-time loser.

These are hard times, and WTC acquisition decisions are difficult.  If you offer up some of your basic musical preferences, I could possibly provide you with decent insights.  Some potential considerations:

1.  Any problem with historical recordings with sub-par sound; that's Tureck's DG situation.
2.  In the sound spectrum from very dry to wet, what's your preference?
3.  Prefer rounded or sharp contours.
4.  Prefer exuberant or reflective interpreations.
5.  Do you want Bach's dark side prominently displayed?
6.  How about Bach heard as "Papa Bach"?
7.  Is detail important to you or are you more concerned with musical sweep?
8.  Harpsichord okay?
9.  Lean or full textures.
10.Etc.

I own many dozens of WTC sets, and it's clear to me that no one artist can give you everything that's great about Bach's music.

Don (and others),

I enjoy the Gould Goldbergs.....I am looking probably for "detail" first.  Does he have this and does Richter?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 07:34:01 PM
Skip Gould and Richter after sampling.  I did like the Gulda and the Crossland sets so far.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 07:49:59 PM
These three are definitely in the final round, and Gulda got dropped.

Tureck (DG)
Fellner
Crossland

Can anyone find me a sample of Tureck's BBC works?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on December 26, 2010, 08:53:12 PM
Quote from: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 07:49:59 PM
These three are definitely in the final round, and Gulda got dropped.

Tureck (DG)
Fellner
Crossland

Can anyone find me a sample of Tureck's BBC works?

No, but I can strongly suggest you grab the DG Tureck. It's excellent.  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 26, 2010, 09:05:04 PM
Quote from: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 07:49:59 PM
These three are definitely in the final round, and Gulda got dropped.

Tureck (DG)
Fellner
Crossland

Can anyone find me a sample of Tureck's BBC works?

JPC has samples of the first disc of her WTC 2.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 09:11:49 PM
Thanks George and Don.  I believe I would be kicking myself if I passed on the DG set, though the BBC was nice as well, but the Book II samples were hard too judge.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on December 26, 2010, 10:27:50 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 26, 2010, 09:05:04 PM
JPC has samples of the first disc of her WTC 2.

What is the difference between Tureck's Well-Tempered DGG & the one issued by New Style?
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Well-Tempered-Clavier/dp/B000AC5EG8/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1293434776&sr=1-7
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on December 26, 2010, 10:51:35 PM
Quote from: czgirb on December 26, 2010, 10:27:50 PM
What is the difference between Tureck's Well-Tempered DGG & the one issued by New Style?
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Well-Tempered-Clavier/dp/B000AC5EG8/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1293434776&sr=1-7

Beats me.  The cover image of Tureck is circa 1990; that would make this recording much more recent than both the DGG and BBC.  Then again, the image could have no tie-in to the recording date.

Why don't you buy it and let us know what's going on?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PaulSC on December 27, 2010, 12:14:11 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 26, 2010, 10:51:35 PM
Beats me.  The cover image of Tureck is circa 1990; that would make this recording much more recent than both the DGG and BBC.  Then again, the image could have no tie-in to the recording date.

Why don't you buy it and let us know what's going on?
According to the product description, the New Style was "recorded in 1952-53." IIRC that's the same period when the DG was recorded, so I suspect they're the same performances. I own neither and can't comment on sound quality -- wouldn't it be nice if te New Style release were an improvement in that respect?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on December 27, 2010, 12:52:02 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 26, 2010, 10:51:35 PM
Beats me.  The cover image of Tureck is circa 1990; that would make this recording much more recent than both the DGG and BBC.  Then again, the image could have no tie-in to the recording date.

Why don't you buy it and let us know what's going on?

I have it ... my sister give me! Tomorrow I will scan it and mailed it to you.
Please give your e-mail.

December 30, 2010
Sorry ... the file is to big. Please dwnload it from below URL:
http://rapidshare.com/files/439598628/Rosalyn_Tureck.rar
Sorry.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 12, 2011, 02:01:33 PM
I've been playing Dantone's WTC II on Arts for a few days now.  Have to say it isn't as enjoyable as I remember from a year or two ago.  The sound has a hard edge to it and not much bloom.  Overall, I don't find the set in the top echelon, although it certainly will retain a space in my music library.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on January 12, 2011, 05:30:06 PM
WTC I owned:
* Piano version ... Schiff (Decca), Gould (Sony), Turreck (New Style)
* Harpsichord version ... Landowska (RCA) both LP & CD

What is your recommendation? Harpsichord version w/ good sound quality.
Cos Landowska's is a good in performance ... but poor in sound.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 13, 2011, 07:38:33 AM
Quote from: czgirb on January 12, 2011, 05:30:06 PM
WTC I owned:
* Piano version ... Schiff (Decca), Gould (Sony), Turreck (New Style)
* Harpsichord version ... Landowska (RCA) both LP & CD

What is your recommendation? Harpsichord version w/ good sound quality.
Cos Landowska's is a good in performance ... but poor in sound.

Leaving availability issues aside, I'd go for Glen Wilson, Davitt Moroney, Kenneth Gilbert, or Gustav Leonhardt.  Perhaps the best in terms of both performance and sound is Peter Watchorn on Musica Omnia.

I almost forgot about Belder's complete WTC on Brilliant Classics - highly worthy and interesting performances at a very low cost.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on January 13, 2011, 05:22:09 PM
Did you mean:
* Glen Wilson ... which found in Teldec's Bach 2000 ???
* Davitt Moroney ... on Harmonia Mundi ???
* Kenneth Gilbert ... on Arkhiv ???
* Gustav Leonhardt ... on Deutche Harmonia Mundi ???
* Pieter-Jan Belder ... on Brilliant Classics ???
* Peter Watchorn ... on Musica Omnia ???
Please guide me ... thank you.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on January 13, 2011, 10:53:05 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 12, 2011, 02:01:33 PM
I've been playing Dantone's WTC II on Arts for a few days now.  Have to say it isn't as enjoyable as I remember from a year or two ago.  The sound has a hard edge to it and not much bloom.  Overall, I don't find the set in the top echelon, although it certainly will retain a space in my music library.

Interesting!  :) The Dantone sets were sofar my top choices together with Wilson. But I haven't listened to them for quite a while. Time to revisit. :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 13, 2011, 11:00:41 PM
Quote from: czgirb on January 13, 2011, 05:22:09 PM
Did you mean:
* Glen Wilson ... which found in Teldec's Bach 2000 ???
* Davitt Moroney ... on Harmonia Mundi ???
* Kenneth Gilbert ... on Arkhiv ???
* Gustav Leonhardt ... on Deutche Harmonia Mundi ???
* Pieter-Jan Belder ... on Brilliant Classics ???
* Peter Watchorn ... on Musica Omnia ???
Please guide me ... thank you.

On target. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on January 14, 2011, 04:32:15 PM
How Wilson's WTC compared to Dantone?
Please inform ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PaulSC on January 14, 2011, 04:44:15 PM
dWilson/dt = (1/3)Dantone^2 - Dantone/8 +0.47
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on January 14, 2011, 06:00:32 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on January 14, 2011, 04:44:15 PM
dWilson/dt = (1/3)Dantone^2 - Dantone/8 +0.47

Oh my God ... would you mind for doing a favor by telling me the meaning of the above statement, please?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 14, 2011, 06:20:53 PM
Quote from: czgirb on January 14, 2011, 06:00:32 PM
Oh my God ... would you mind for doing a favor by telling me the meaning of the above statement, please?

Czgirb - this is just a fun response from Paul, i.e. a joke - often in many of these performance comparisons, there is no clear choice if you're looking for a perfect recording - may depend on your own ears & preferences & might be influenced on your choice of instruments, e.g. harpsichord vs. fortepiano vs. piano - so often you'll need to listen to examples or even purchase several different recordings and make up your own mind -  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on January 14, 2011, 06:28:55 PM
Thank you so much SonicMan ... but please be notified ... in here, in Indonesia ... it's hard to obtained a Classic Music recordings ... so I must write to my friend, whose live in other countries for helping me to make a purchase of it.
Most WTC that I had is Piano. Harpsichord ... only Landowska (Good in Performance but Poor in Sound)
That's why I need someone to recommend one.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PaulSC on January 14, 2011, 07:45:01 PM
czgirb, apologies if it wasn't clear I was making a joke. (And thanks to SonicMan for helping to sort it out.)

I haven't heard Dantone's WTC, and I don't own the Wilson recording but had it out from the library once several years ago. Don's (Bulldog's) recent comments make it clear he prefers Wilson, and he gave you a longer list of recommendations earlier in this thread. If you have limited resources for previewing and purchasing online, you may have to just take a "leap into the unknown" -- any of the sets Don recommends are worth owning.

Two more resources:

First, there are lengthy reviews and comparisons by Don and others at http://www.bach-cantatas.com/IndexNonVocal2.htm

Second (and less important, I'm sure), here are my own favorite harpsichord versions, with a few generalizing comments.

[asin]B00008AD9S[/asin] [asin]B0000ALKPX[/asin]
(I've seen other packaging for the above)

[asin]B00007F8W4[/asin]

[asin]B0000016OJ[/asin] [asin]B001JYDLNO[/asin]

[asin]B000NHKD0C[/asin] [asin]B002Z7QJN8[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on January 16, 2011, 04:41:01 PM
I wish it was Watchorn ... as Bulldog's recommend it has the best sound ... but find NONE.

Currently, it was Glen Wilson (#108 & #109) and Ottavio Dantone on the way here ... thank you.
Regarding to the Kenneth Gilbert, since I prefer to take the LP ... it's cover is BEAUTIFUL ... so I choose to keep on hunting.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 17, 2011, 06:19:40 AM
Czgird - sounds like you're happy w/ your piano versions of these works; the ones that I own (and Don, a.k.a. Bulldog is always of great help in these Bach keyboard recommendations!):

HarpsichordGlen Wilson & Peter Watchorn, the latter's pedal harpsichord is wonderful to hear!

Piano: Jill Crossland & Roger Woodward - Turek is on my wish list (she is so HIGHLY rated in this forum!).

Clavichord: Jaroslav Tuma - I just love that instrument and performer!  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 17, 2011, 09:20:19 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 17, 2011, 06:19:40 AM


[Turek is on my wish list (she is so HIGHLY rated in this forum!).


Is that right? Do people really think so highly of her recorded WTC?  I have the DG one. It doesn't seem anything like as nice as  her best work -- which I would say is the Goldbergs and Partitas on Great Pianists. But maybe I have the wrong recording or maybe I'm missing something.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 17, 2011, 01:55:29 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 17, 2011, 09:20:19 AM
Is that right? Do people really think so highly of her recorded WTC?  I have the DG one. It doesn't seem anything like as nice as  her best work -- which I would say is the Goldbergs and Partitas on Great Pianists. But maybe I have the wrong recording or maybe I'm missing something.

Well, maybe I'm wrong in my impression? And possibly the reason why I've not yet purchased her set?  Will be interested to see the responses of our many Bach keyboard experts here - thanks for the comments -  :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on January 17, 2011, 02:01:01 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 17, 2011, 01:55:29 PM
Well, maybe I'm wrong in my impression?

I don't think so. Don rates it at the top, I took his suggestion and loved it. Stuart had the same results. I know that there were others, but I forget who they were.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on January 17, 2011, 04:11:20 PM
Like me ... I have:
Piano: Gould (Sony), Schiff (Decca), and Tureck (NewStyle)
Harpsichord: Landowska (RCA) both LPs/CDs, Wilson (Teldec) and Dantone (Arts) ... on the way here.
And I love them both.
I confirm Wilson & Dantone, since I read Don's review and owning a same perception with him ... though not 100%.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on January 17, 2011, 09:52:59 PM
I like WTC played and recorded on the organ so long as the reverb time is not overlong.

Robert Levin's recording is a good example.  He even got away with a rather brisk tempo without the sound all turning into mush.


Prelude and Fugue in E major, from Book II

http://www.youtube.com/v/-ssePALi9lo

ps. All my examples were recorded and play in HD for a more decent sound/image quality. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on January 17, 2011, 10:10:45 PM
Quote from: masolino on January 17, 2011, 09:52:59 PM
I like WTC played and recorded on the organ so long as the reverb time is not overlong.

Robert Levin's recording is a good example.  He could even get away with a rather brisk tempo here.


Prelude and Fugue in E major, from Book II

ps. All my examples were recorded and play in HD for a more decent sound/image quality. 


Nice, thanks. :) Is this from the Haenssler set?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on January 17, 2011, 10:17:58 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on January 17, 2011, 10:10:45 PM

Is this from the Haenssler set?



Yes it is - I am surprised how infrequently Levin's recording is mentioned though.  Most accounts with mixed instrumentation don't seem to be very popular. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 17, 2011, 11:06:30 PM
I like Koroliov's WTC.

His articulation is interesting  and effective. He shows that a Steinway, played well, can be warm and round. He  makes each prelude and fugue sweet and simple.


He sounds completely at ease with the complex polyphony. Each voice is articulated independently, and in a way which makes it intelligible -- that's quite an achievement on a modern piano. The more rapid fugues are extremely clear. The work sounds limpid But at the same time his tone is warm and the style is not totally detached -- the phrasing is long and the articulation almost legato. That combination - limpid independent voices, and each voice played lyrically -- is, I think, pretty unique.

If you look at him on youtube, he seems totally physically relaxed and supple even when he plays some very difficult fast music.

At the emotional level he uses dynamics -- really stunning crescendos -- to produce some very moving climaxes.

I like his AoF too.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 17, 2011, 11:09:56 PM
Quote from: George on January 17, 2011, 02:01:01 PM
I don't think so. Don rates it at the top, I took his suggestion and loved it. Stuart had the same results. I know that there were others, but I forget who they were.

Well I don't see it, at least on DG. Is that the one you all like so much?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on January 18, 2011, 03:23:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 17, 2011, 11:09:56 PM
Well I don't see it, at least on DG. Is that the one you all like so much?

yes.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on January 18, 2011, 04:24:15 AM
Another performance of BWV 878, this time on a Silbermann fortepiano.  The original poster thought it was performed by Robert Levin, which is probably incorrect information.  If I were to venture a guess, this would be from Daniel Chorzempa's set for Philips (OOP) which also has a mixed instrumentarium consisting of chamber organs, harpsichords, clavichords and a fortepiano.

http://www.youtube.com/v/NKhkCkNVUVE

 
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal/Chorzempa-K01%5BPhilips%5D.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on January 18, 2011, 08:47:30 AM
Jan Michiels plays would be a latterday version of BWV 869 on an 1875 Steinway grand piano.

http://www.youtube.com/v/G6x7uGgiFaY

b-minor p&f from edition 1908 by Bela Bartok.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61xNZfK76aL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on January 18, 2011, 09:52:01 AM
Bernard Legace plays the b minor p&f from Book I on an organ of modern make.

http://www.youtube.com/v/cmf2hoSRtuQ

This sounds like sloooow mooootion in comparison to the pianoforte version by Michiels above.  ;)
Not surprisingly, his book II spreads over three CDs.   Can't say this is my ideal way of listening to Bach. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on January 18, 2011, 12:41:27 PM
The concept of a WTC on organ appeals to me. Anyone familiar with this recording? :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517TVBIlK-L.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on January 18, 2011, 01:42:53 PM
Quote from: Que on January 18, 2011, 12:41:27 PM
Anyone familiar with this recording? :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517TVBIlK-L.jpg)

Yes, but have not listened to it for a long time. I remember it as stylish as to the details if rather strict.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on January 18, 2011, 02:43:31 PM
Quote from: premont on January 18, 2011, 01:42:53 PM
Yes, but have not listened to it for a long time. I remember it as stylish as to the details if rather strict.

An example that one can actually listen to would be most ideal. ;) (hint hint)

MP3 links are available for the separate books on amazon fr but only 30s long.  :(
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 18, 2011, 09:55:57 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 17, 2011, 09:20:19 AM
Is that right? Do people really think so highly of her recorded WTC?  I have the DG one. It doesn't seem anything like as nice as  her best work -- which I would say is the Goldbergs and Partitas on Great Pianists. But maybe I have the wrong recording or maybe I'm missing something.

I'd take Tureck's WTC on DGG over her Goldbergs and Partitas.  You might be missing something or perhaps your taste sucks.  On the other hand, you and I are in total agreement about Koroliov's complete WTC, so your taste must be mighty fine.  Clever Hans, a fellow member here, also loves the Koroliov set and is actually the man who turned me on to Koroliov.

The important point here is not to get bogged down in just a small number of versions.  There are many wonderful sets on both piano and harpsichord; get all of them.

Someone brought up the Levin sets on Hanssler.  I very much appreciate the variety of instruments he employs, and his Fugue in B flat minor from Bk. 2 is alone worth the price of admission.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on January 18, 2011, 10:04:49 PM
Quote from: masolino on January 18, 2011, 04:24:15 AM
Another performance of BWV 878, this time on a Silbermann fortepiano.  The original poster thought it was performed by Robert Levin, which is probably incorrect information.  If I were to venture a guess, this would be from Daniel Chorzempa's set for Philips (OOP) which also has a mixed instrumentarium consisting of chamber organs, harpsichords, clavichords and a fortepiano.
 
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal/Chorzempa-K01%5BPhilips%5D.jpg)

At times it sounds like a (moog?) synthesizer. I'll let it pass because it's Bach. 0:)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on January 19, 2011, 12:16:44 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on January 18, 2011, 10:04:49 PM
At times it sounds like a (moog?) synthesizer. I'll let it pass because it's Bach. 0:)

What sounds good sounds good.  I love the sound of most Silbermann fortepianos I have heard on record.  :D 


Robert Levin also uses a fortepiano in his recording for pieces which he deems to be 'in character' for the instrument, which Frederick the Prussian King obviously loved, too.  I shall post a fp entry from the Levin set later, which in general has a less deadpan kind of sound pickup.

ps. Last time I checked, Daniel Chorzempa has been a Director of the Neue Bach Gesellschaft, Leipzig.  An actual Bach priest!  ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on January 19, 2011, 10:46:39 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 19, 2011, 12:16:44 AM

I shall post a fp entry from the Levin set later, which in general has a less deadpan kind of sound pickup.



Robert Levin plays BWV 886 (A-flat Major) p&f on a replica G. Silbermann fortepiano

http://www.youtube.com/v/8Hd8AWkHxWk

:)

(http://www.jazzstore.com/media/products/00/0024/00242806/cache_robert-levin-bach-the-well-tempered-clavier-book-2_w200.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on January 19, 2011, 10:57:09 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 19, 2011, 10:46:39 AM
Robert Levin plays BWV 886 (A-flat Major) p&f on a G. Silbermann fortepiano

:)

Just in time! I was about to turn the computer off and hit the hay. :) Thanks for posting this. Initial reaction: I find this sound comparatively better.



P.S.: What's with the penguins? ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on January 19, 2011, 11:05:48 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on January 19, 2011, 10:57:09 AM
Just in time! I was about to turn the computer off and hit the hay. :) Thanks for posting this. Initial reaction: I find this sound comparatively better.



P.S.: What's with the penguins? ;D

Well yes I agree Levin made the wise choice of playing a replica instead of an original.  Chorzempa, as I remember (don't have the set with me at the moment) plays a rare original Silbermann fp for his recording.

The penguins?  They are on an oversized postcard my partner sent me from New Zealand the other day.  For some reason the descending left-hand figuration in the Bach prelude reminds me of the bumbling lot. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on January 19, 2011, 11:15:24 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 19, 2011, 11:05:48 AM
Well yes I agree Levin made the wise choice of playing a replica instead of an original.  Chorzempa, as I remember (don't have the set with me at the moment) plays a rare original Silbermann fp for his recording.

Given similar recording conditions, would an original sound so different from a replica, if we can even call it that?

Quote
For some reason the descending left-hand figuration in the Bach prelude reminds me of the bumbling lot. :)

??? ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on January 19, 2011, 11:28:39 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on January 19, 2011, 11:15:24 AM
Given similar recording conditions, would an original sound so different from a replica, if we can even call it that?
Good replicas (this one by Thomas and Barbara Wolf, Washington DC) usually aim to imitate the original in as new condition, something originals obviously can't do unless extensively restored.... Chorzempa's original is a museum item, so in its case the restoration may have been kept to a minimum.  Also it seems to me that Levin's recording was more closely miked than the other, with somewhat 'warmer' acoustics.  Not easily comparable, I think.

Quote
??? ;D

Levin is one of the few musicians that I have heard that do Bach with plenty of humour. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on January 19, 2011, 04:38:36 PM
Quote from: masolino on January 19, 2011, 11:05:48 AM
Well yes I agree Levin made the wise choice of playing a replica instead of an original.  Chorzempa, as I remember (don't have the set with me at the moment) plays a rare original Silbermann fp for his recording.

The penguins?  They are on an oversized postcard my partner sent me from New Zealand the other day.  For some reason the descending left-hand figuration in the Bach prelude reminds me of the bumbling lot. :)

I saw the Chorzempa set listed on Amazon UK by a MarketPlace vendor a few months ago.  But the vendor would not ship to the US ...    >:(
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on January 19, 2011, 08:59:03 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 19, 2011, 04:38:36 PM
I saw the Chorzempa set listed on Amazon UK by a MarketPlace vendor a few months ago.  But the vendor would not ship to the US ...    >:(

Not to worry - it will pop up sometime in the future where you least suspect it.  I bought my WTC1 recording by Scott Ross a long time ago at a closedown sale when Tower Records went out of business in my country, Book I only because there was no Book II in the shop.  Guess what, I saw Book II a couple of months ago on ebay, and the seller shipped to the entire world!   :) 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on January 20, 2011, 12:25:16 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 19, 2011, 08:59:03 PM
Guess what, I saw Book II a couple of months ago on ebay, and the seller shipped to the entire world!   :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/pWDZtckgkGU

:)

The harpsichord sound gets rough in the more heavily textured fugue, but one simply shouldn't ask perfection from a recording  hastily done in 1980.  Scott Ross' 'objective' style of playing still appeals, though.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on January 20, 2011, 07:02:40 PM
Have yourself to take a tour and seen this:
* BWV 871a Comparison ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-JK0Rk_UGY
* BWV 854b Comparison ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVa_mzn90F0
* BWV 850a Comparison ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1G5ikwyhK0
* BWV 848 Comparison ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaWLWffUSsQ
It's a good reference.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 21, 2011, 06:17:55 AM
Quote from: czgirb on January 20, 2011, 07:02:40 PM
Have yourself to take a tour and seen this:
* BWV 871a Comparison ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-JK0Rk_UGY
* BWV 854b Comparison ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVa_mzn90F0
* BWV 850a Comparison ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1G5ikwyhK0
* BWV 848 Comparison ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaWLWffUSsQ
It's a good reference.

Thanks for the tour.  Concerning the four versions of the BWV 871 Prelude, Gould easily tops the field.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on January 21, 2011, 05:22:26 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 21, 2011, 06:17:55 AM
Thanks for the tour.  Concerning the four versions of the BWV 871 Prelude, Gould easily tops the field.
Maybe ... but I still prefer Rosalyn Tureck's
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on January 24, 2011, 08:53:23 PM
A nice way of presenting this music: with the composer's mss autograph!
(viewable in HD) The OP used Léon Berben's recording of the score.

BWV846 C major
http://www.youtube.com/v/_sktXHDv0Pk

BWV847 c minor
http://www.youtube.com/v/lzQT1tTLUME

People who like the OP's work please go to the page and show your appreciation.
The autograph (and tons of other Bach manuscript scores) can be viewed at bachdigital.de.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on January 24, 2011, 11:13:58 PM
@ Bulldog
Yesterday ... my WTC packages has come ... and I start listening Wilson's first.
Thank you for the recommendation ... now I have WTC in Harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on January 25, 2011, 06:38:13 AM
Quote from: czgirb on January 24, 2011, 11:13:58 PM
@ Bulldog
Yesterday ... my WTC packages has come ... and I start listening Wilson's first.
Thank you for the recommendation ... now I have WTC in Harpsichord.

I'm glad you're enjoying it. 8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on January 25, 2011, 06:48:29 AM
Quote from: czgirb on January 24, 2011, 11:13:58 PM
Yesterday ... my WTC packages has come ... and I start listening Wilson's first.

Where did you get hold of the Wilson? Well, I own it since long- but I just wondered.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on January 25, 2011, 06:54:09 PM
Quote from: premont on January 25, 2011, 06:48:29 AM
Where did you get hold of the Wilson? Well, I own it since long- but I just wondered.

I don't know ... my friends who study aboard help me to buy it
I don't care if it 2nd or not ... the most important is ... it is Glen Wilson (Teldec's Bach 2000 cd-108 & cd-109)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on January 31, 2011, 04:54:39 PM
Yesterday ... my friend, used LP seller, call me to informed that he found used Gilbert's WTC set (Arkhiv) and ask me whether I still need it. And I answered ... absolutely, YES ... Thank you. So, it means I will have an Gilbert's WTC with it's beautiful cover.  ;D ;D ;D
Thank you, Bulldog for recommend this records to me.

Forgot to report:
Yesterday I tried Dantone's WTC ... the sound is much more better than Wilson's.
And I find it's a WTC's album, which worth to be owning too.
Thank you for the person who recommend this records ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sadko on February 02, 2011, 04:13:07 PM
Being a WTC fan myself this thread caught my attention. When I had been reading through it half way, I thought, which recordings have I got, that have not been mentioned yet?

One of them was the set of Walter Gieseking on DG, with books I and II:

[ASIN]B00000E4IK[/ASIN]

When I had it newly I didn't like it at all, a bad sound quality with strong distortions, and superfast playing, that appeared like empty acrobatics to me, so I quickly put it away annoyedly.

Now I began playing it while going on reading this thread, but I found my attention so much drawn to it that I couldn't go on reading, so I put it off again, reserving it for the next day and my full concentrated attention.

Today I listened to the first of the three CDs, and - what a revelation! Yes, the tempi often are breathtaking, but anything but "empty acrobatics"! A touch so light that sometimes the key seems to fail to produce a sound, but not at all powerless, soft, or blurred. His sound is crisp like a harpsichord, but with the clarity of the piano, which makes even dense complex patterns transparent. He is not for the "equilibrium", he likes to push things to the limits, but he seems always in control. And equally as a listener I felt completely in the grasp of this, no wandering off of the thoughts into dreams, which I experience with some WTC interpretations. Nevertheless all this to me seems to come out of a deep  organic feeling for the compositions, there are no "loose ends", everything seems to make sense effortlessly.

Judging from this first CD I would say: In a collection of the top Welltempered Claviers this set must have a place.

And thanks to the contributors of this thread for letting me discover a neglected treasure of my collection.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 02, 2011, 07:45:04 PM
Quote from: sadko on February 02, 2011, 04:13:07 PM
Being a WTC fan myself this thread caught my attention. When I had been reading through it half way, I thought, which recordings have I got, that have not been mentioned yet?

One of them was the set of Walter Gieseking on DG, with books I and II:

[ASIN]B00000E4IK[/ASIN]

When I had it newly I didn't like it at all, a bad sound quality with strong distortions, and superfast playing, that appeared like empty acrobatics to me, so I quickly put it away annoyedly.

Now I began playing it while going on reading this thread, but I found my attention so much drawn to it that I couldn't go on reading, so I put it off again, reserving it for the next day and my full concentrated attention.

Today I listened to the first of the three CDs, and - what a revelation! Yes, the tempi often are breathtaking, but anything but "empty acrobatics"! A touch so light that sometimes the key seems to fail to produce a sound, but not at all powerless, soft, or blurred. His sound is crisp like a harpsichord, but with the clarity of the piano, which makes even dense complex patterns transparent. He is not for the "equilibrium", he likes to push things to the limits, but he seems always in control. And equally as a listener I felt completely in the grasp of this, no wandering off of the thoughts into dreams, which I experience with some WTC interpretations. Nevertheless all this to me seems to come out of a deep  organic feeling for the compositions, there are no "loose ends", everything seems to make sense effortlessly.

I've been close to acquiring the Gieseking, but it just never happened.  I will order it right after writing this post; its availability on Newton Classics at a low price makes this an easy choice.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 02, 2011, 11:46:05 PM
Quote from: czgirb on January 20, 2011, 07:02:40 PM
Have yourself to take a tour and seen this:
* BWV 871a Comparison ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-JK0Rk_UGY
* BWV 854b Comparison ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVa_mzn90F0
* BWV 850a Comparison ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1G5ikwyhK0
* BWV 848 Comparison ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaWLWffUSsQ
It's a good reference.
Sorry - a little late to the party. I love these sorts of things!

871a - No 'winner'
Gould - quite nice. Not too pingy. Perhaps a little too straight. Slows down at the end, which disappointed me. But a nice version.
Hewitt - Also good. Less pingy and smoother than Gould. I think I preferred Gould's speed, but this is enrapturing. I feel I hear more here though.
Richter - More or less a speed demon throughout, defintiely more dynamic this way. Too many details are lost, but exciting.
Tureck - This is precisely the type of Bach I dislike in terms of pingyness. I do like that she is bit more dynamic throughout and doesn't play it mono-chromatically. This part is exacctly what I like in Bach. So interesting mix from her.

854b- No Winner.
Fischer - Nicely dynamic. Loses some details though. And a bit too much stress on a few notes here and there that distract.
Gould - A bit more dynamic than the previous. ok!
Hewitt - Great flow. I really feel the arc of this short piece better here. Softer touch - could see this not being to everyone's taste.
Richter -Pingy due to sound quality, but again a speed demon. Exciting, but I feel mostly the top line.
Schiff - Better mix of dynamics, flow and detial. But he pings the notes sometimes, which is all the more jarring, because it is in a few spots in particular, not everywhere.
Tureck - Oi! Too clipped. I couldn't live with this.

850a - Winner:  Tureck (amazing - because I hated her 854b)
Fischer - Like gentle rain in some ways. Nice. But left hand was uneven in tempo a bit in the middle. (shame about the sound, but not his fault)
Gould - Nice. Perhaps a bit too peckish on the bottom/left hand at times (a softer touch at times would have been welcome). Nice ending though - good touch.
Richter - Fast again. Some detail lost, and a bit monochromatic. But still holds the interest with the excitement and thrill he generates. Holds the line well, perhaps because he does go fast.
Schiff - Every note is heard. A couple bobbles in tempo early, but minor. Not dynamic enough until the middle. Pretty ending.
Tureck - Stable tempo. Ping is muted and so this is more listenable for me. Nicely dynamic (loved how she quieter at 5.50 or so). This would hold my interest in repeated listening.

848 - Richter (mostly for the prelude, which shines in my opinion)
Gould - Nice start. good balance and detail. Fugue is very good. This is wonderful. A little more dynamics would have been nice, but still very good. Holds tempo like a brick wall here - excellent.
Richter - One feels the drive and energy (and as a result, the line) much better here in the prelude. The fugue is also quite nicely done. Totally different from Gould, but like this too. I think I prefer his warmer (and a bit more dynamic) approach. 
Schiff - Too slow. Something is off in the prelude - can't quite put my finger on it (unless the tempo is it). I just find this uninteresting (too pretty perhaps?).  A bit clipped on occassion.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 03, 2011, 07:08:45 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on February 02, 2011, 11:46:05 PM
Sorry - a little late to the party. I love these sorts of things!

854b- No Winner.
Fischer - Nicely dynamic. Loses some details though. And a bit too much stress on a few notes here and there that distract.
Gould - A bit more dynamic than the previous. ok!
Hewitt - Great flow. I really feel the arc of this short piece better here. Softer touch - could see this not being to everyone's taste.
Richter -Pingy due to sound quality, but again a speed demon. Exciting, but I feel mostly the top line.
Schiff - Better mix of dynamics, flow and detial. But he pings the notes sometimes, which is all the more jarring, because it is in a few spots in particular, not everywhere.
Tureck - Oi! Too clipped. I couldn't live with this.

I hear it differently. 

Winners:  The speedy Gould and Richter with all the technical command needed.  Tureck's rather slow but her clarity and detached playing wins the day.

Losers:  Fischer and Hewitt.  Fischer can't handle the speed and messes up frequently.  Hewitt's just too "pretty" for my tastes.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 03, 2011, 07:49:58 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 03, 2011, 07:08:45 AM
I hear it differently. 

Winners:  The speedy Gould and Richter with all the technical command needed.  Tureck's rather slow but her clarity and detached playing wins the day.

Losers:  Fischer and Hewitt.  Fischer can't handle the speed and messes up frequently.  Hewitt's just too "pretty" for my tastes.
Actually, our comments are pretty similar in that I think we are hearing much the same things. What we like or dislike in the playing is where we really diverge. You like the Tureck for the same reason I dislike it. On Hewitt, we both agree it is pretty (but disagree on whether that is good or bad), though I really liked that hers was a bit different. I also wouldn't disagree with your comments on Gould and Richter, where I thought their technical command just fine too.  If forced to choose a favorite among these, those would probably be the two I would choose from. But none of them were ideal for me (just quite good).

It's interesting how we can hear exactly the same things and come to a different conclusion on them.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PaulSC on February 03, 2011, 09:09:28 AM
I'll play! (And if I don't get too busy with other things today I'll post another set of performances of the same fugue in case anyone wants to comment...)
854b- 
Fischer - doesn't seem fully in control, groups of 16th notes get "mashed together" esp. in the LH
Gould - I generally like this for its transparency and vitality. But I HATE the long, drawn-out final ritardando. (And that's how it almost always goes with Gould for me: so much promise but he nearly always injects some unwelcome mannerism to spoil it all.)
Hewitt - I liked this more than I expected to. The "prettiness" here doesn't render the music spineless, and she doesn't rush as I find her doing in other recordings.
Richter - I appreciate the excitement, but the tempo is a bit unsteady and the ending seems to arrive unprepared.
Schiff - As usual I find Schiff a bit "fussy" with articulation and motivic structure. But it's not a major problem here (or in his WTC overall).
Tureck - My favorite of the bunch, in spite of the poor sound quality. Clear, graceful, and unmannered -- although I do realize the persistent staccato articulation will strike some listeners as a mannerism after all!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 03, 2011, 09:18:46 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on February 03, 2011, 07:49:58 AM
Actually, our comments are pretty similar in that I think we are hearing much the same things. What we like or dislike in the playing is where we really diverge. You like the Tureck for the same reason I dislike it. On Hewitt, we both agree it is pretty (but disagree on whether that is good or bad), though I really liked that hers was a bit different. I also wouldn't disagree with your comments on Gould and Richter, where I thought their technical command just fine too.  If forced to choose a favorite among these, those would probably be the two I would choose from. But none of them were ideal for me (just quite good).

It's interesting how we can hear exactly the same things and come to a different conclusion on them.

That's for sure.  By the way, the best BWV 854 Fugue I've ever heard comes from Schepkin on his Ongaku set; the exuberance leaps out of the speakers.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PaulSC on February 03, 2011, 09:27:47 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on February 03, 2011, 09:09:28 AM
(And if I don't get too busy with other things today I'll post another set of performances of the same fugue in case anyone wants to comment...)
I'm going to do this. Does anyone prefer if the performers are identified or unidentified (to be revealed later)?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 03, 2011, 09:42:57 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on February 03, 2011, 09:27:47 AM
I'm going to do this. Does anyone prefer if the performers are identified or unidentified (to be revealed later)?

I would consider identification to be best; I don't play games.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 03, 2011, 10:20:25 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 03, 2011, 09:18:46 AM
That's for sure.  By the way, the best BWV 854 Fugue I've ever heard comes from Schepkin on his Ongaku set; the exuberance leaps out of the speakers.
I have his Partitas (was that one of your recs?).  I got it from the Partita thread and love him in those.  I have also acquired the WTC with Richter on RCA, but I have only listened to parts of it. I've liked what I heard on that too.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 03, 2011, 10:29:57 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on February 03, 2011, 10:20:25 AM
I have his Partitas (was that one of your recs?).  I got it from the Partita thread and love him in those.  I have also acquired the WTC with Richter on RCA, but I have only listened to parts of it. I've liked what I heard on that too.

Yeah, I do recommend Schepkin's Partitas but consider his WTC the best Bach I've heard from him.  As for his Goldberg Variations, I was very disappointed with his fussy mannerisms including a highly unattractive regimen of trills.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PaulSC on February 03, 2011, 01:08:53 PM
Making these videos was a big headache. I guess it was a learning experience but there must be easier ways. Anyway, happy listening!

http://www.youtube.com/v/MXuQG2WiQ5w

http://www.youtube.com/v/DdwwaF7aAQw
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 03, 2011, 08:27:45 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on February 03, 2011, 01:08:53 PM
Making these videos was a big headache. I guess it was a learning experience but there must be easier ways. Anyway, happy listening!

http://www.youtube.com/v/MXuQG2WiQ5w

http://www.youtube.com/v/DdwwaF7aAQw

I hope your head is much better now, and I appreciate the harpsichord versions provided.  When I'm listening to Bach on harpsichord for a few weeks, it takes me some time to adjust to Bach on piano.  After listening to the piano for many days, going back to the harpsichord is like coming home.

Concerning the four pianists, I'd have to go with Fellner and Koroliov - plenty of energy and it doesn't stop.  Korolev wasn't to my liking; I found the performance awkward.

For the four harpsichord versions, I favored the Hantai for basically the same reasons as favoring Fellner and Koroliov.  Although quite slower than the norm, I enjoyed Gilbert and Watchorn with their fine attention to detail.  Suzuki was fine.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 03, 2011, 11:39:37 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on February 03, 2011, 01:08:53 PM
Making these videos was a big headache. I guess it was a learning experience but there must be easier ways. Anyway, happy listening!

Well, I enjoy them, so know they are being listened to with happiness! Here were my thoughts:

854 Fugue - Piano: Winner: Fellner
Fellner: Unfamiliar with this pianist (new for me). Oh - very nice touch indeed. I liked this a lot. Maybe could have been more dynamics, but overall good.
Korolev: Fast. And an uneveness in tempo. The piece felt disjointed.   
Koroliov: Brighter sound. More muscular than Fellner. Not bad.
Mustonen: Too staccato and clipped for my tastes. A bit more dynamic though, which I would have liked more of from the others. But clipped playing overwhelms.

Harpsichord is harder for me to judge, because I am not a fan of the sound. Of these, I liked Suzuki best, perhaps in part due to a warmer sounding instrument. I did not like Gilbert at all, who I found slow and not as consistant on tempo. The others were ok.

Really appreciate your putting this together Paul!!!!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PaulSC on February 04, 2011, 12:10:23 PM
Thanks for listening and commenting, Don and Neal!

I shouldn't have been so grumbly about making the videos, but it was my first time using iMovie, and Apple somehow thinks it's clever to ship all their consumer-level software without proper manuals. I think I was struggling because I thought of the task as "adding a few simple visuals to a primary audio track," whereas iMovie is set up for adding simple audio cues to a primary video track.

Anyway, it was very interesting to read your reactions. For the record, I find it very easy to enjoy three of these piano WTCs (Fellner, Korolev, and Koroliov -- although Korolev is not at his best in this fugue) and  -- even moreso -- three of these hpscd WTCs (Hantaï, Suzuki, Watchorn). I especially love the instruments played by Suzuki (sinuous and less steely, a bit like a classical guitar or a lute hpscd) and Watchorn (a pedal hpscd with an augmented bass register and a big, cinematic sound that suits his unhurried interpretations).

The remaining interpretations are perfect when I'm in certain moods. Gilbert's is the most hands-off of the bunch and is what I go to when I don't want a performer imposing an idiosyncratic point of view on the music. It rewards the same kind of attention I'd give the music when playing it myself or just reading the score. Mustonen is obviously the opposite, a highly "interventionist" reading that I admit I find compelling, especially when I listen to bigger chunks instead of a single fugue. As most folks here probably know, Mustonen recorded WTC I across two records interleaved with the Shostakovich Preludes and Fugues. Not something I reach for everyday.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on February 04, 2011, 01:48:09 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on February 04, 2011, 12:10:23 PM
As most folks here probably know, Mustonen recorded WTC I across two records interleaved with the Shostakovich Preludes and Fugues. Not something I reach for everyday.

He did for WTC2 as well, on the Ondine label.  After owning the WTC1 for years, I finally decided I that I don't need to follow it up.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PaulSC on February 04, 2011, 02:07:47 PM
Quote from: masolino on February 04, 2011, 01:48:09 PM
He did for WTC2 as well, on the Ondine label.  After owning the WTC1 for years, I finally decided I that I don't need to follow it up.

The two Mustonen WTC recordings I own, on RCA and Ondine, add up to WTC I only. The reason they span 2+1 CDs (in spite of generally fast tempo choices) is that the complete Shostakovich Op. 87 is mixed in.

[asin]B000023ZR4[/asin]

[asin] B00012SZFO[/asin]

If he truly recorded WTC II as well, I'd love to hear it. (I might be the only one, however!)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: FideLeo on February 04, 2011, 10:26:52 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on February 04, 2011, 02:07:47 PM
The two Mustonen WTC recordings I own, on RCA and Ondine, add up to WTC I only. The reason they span 2+1 CDs (in spite of generally fast tempo choices) is that the complete Shostakovich Op. 87 is mixed in.



Sorry!  I guess I didn't care for the recording itself enough to recall its contents correctly.  For me, there are simply far too many composers in that performance.  :P


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on February 09, 2011, 06:21:16 PM
Quote from: sadko on February 02, 2011, 04:13:07 PM
Being a WTC fan myself this thread caught my attention. When I had been reading through it half way, I thought, which recordings have I got, that have not been mentioned yet?

One of them was the set of Walter Gieseking on DG, with books I and II:

[ASIN]B00000E4IK[/ASIN]

My goodness, that is fast. Far too fast for me.  :-\
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 09, 2011, 06:46:19 PM
Quote from: George on February 09, 2011, 06:21:16 PM
My goodness, that is fast. Far too fast for me.  :-\

Looks like I will pass on this set.  I do not like speed demon for WTC ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 06:48:58 PM
Quote from: George on February 09, 2011, 06:21:16 PM
My goodness, that is fast. Far too fast for me.  :-\

My problem with Gieseking's WTC isn't the tempos but the god-awful sound.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on February 09, 2011, 06:52:11 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 06:48:58 PM
My problem with Gieseking's WTC isn't the tempos but the god-awful sound.

Like all too many historical piano recordings on major labels (they love to go heavy on the noise reduction, I find) the piano sounds like it's underwater.  :-\
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 06:56:27 PM
Quote from: George on February 09, 2011, 06:52:11 PM
Like all too many historical piano recordings on major labels (they love to go heavy on the noise reduction, I find) the piano sounds like it's underwater.  :-\

Well, Gieseking's WTC sound isn't recessed, but it stinks in every other way.  I also have the feeling at this point that Gieseking's interpretations do not transcend the sound limitations (only listened twice so far).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on February 09, 2011, 07:01:21 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 06:56:27 PM
Well, Gieseking's WTC sound isn't recessed, but it stinks in every other way.  I also have the feeling at this point that Gieseking's interpretations do not transcend the sound limitations (only listened twice so far).

I have only heard the DG samples over at amazon, but they sure aren't encouraging me to want to hear more.

Plus, I am happy with Fienberg, Richter (live and studio), Edwin Fischer, Tureck (DG) and Gould. In fact, I'd like to get to know these sets even better, especially Feinberg and Tureck, and buying more means more time away from what I already have. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on February 10, 2011, 04:49:53 PM
Quote from: George on February 09, 2011, 07:01:21 PM
I have only heard the DG samples over at amazon, but they sure aren't encouraging me to want to hear more.

Plus, I am happy with Fienberg, Richter (live and studio), Edwin Fischer, Tureck (DG) and Gould. In fact, I'd like to get to know these sets even better, especially Feinberg and Tureck, and buying more means more time away from what I already have.

George, I also have every version you listed above.  Thanks so much for the heads up on the Feinberg version, which is probably OOP by now ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Lethevich on February 12, 2011, 01:13:20 AM
Which recordings do you guys find to be the slowest/most Romantic/indulgent performances of the cycle (single book recordings are fine too)?

These tend to be considered quite negative interpretive traits, but I'd like to seek some out to establish for myself a frame of reference to compare with the usual recommendations.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on February 12, 2011, 02:27:10 AM
Quote from: Lethe on February 12, 2011, 01:13:20 AM
Which recordings do you guys find to be the slowest/most Romantic/indulgent performances of the cycle (single book recordings are fine too)?

These tend to be considered quite negative interpretive traits, but I'd like to seek some out to establish for myself a frame of reference to compare with the usual recommendations.

Feinberg comes to mind.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on February 12, 2011, 08:06:21 AM
Quote from: Lethe on February 12, 2011, 01:13:20 AM
Which recordings do you guys find to be the slowest/most Romantic/indulgent performances of the cycle (single book recordings are fine too)?

These tend to be considered quite negative interpretive traits, but I'd like to seek some out to establish for myself a frame of reference to compare with the usual recommendations.

Barenboim is a possibility, I would imagine.

[asin]B0002HTZKW[/asin]
[asin]B0009XCD4Y[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 12, 2011, 10:04:55 AM
Quote from: Lethe on February 12, 2011, 01:13:20 AM
Which recordings do you guys find to be the slowest/most Romantic/indulgent performances of the cycle (single book recordings are fine too)?

These tend to be considered quite negative interpretive traits, but I'd like to seek some out to establish for myself a frame of reference to compare with the usual recommendations.

Leaving out the indulgent quality, Andrei Vieru on Alpha meets your test.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Lethevich on February 12, 2011, 10:06:51 AM
Sounds great, thanks! I have some researching to do :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 12, 2011, 10:09:30 AM
Just keep in mind that Feinberg/Vieru are super performances while Barenboim's is a dud.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Lethevich on February 12, 2011, 10:58:32 PM
Feinberg is really, really impressive. I expected worse sound quality, so was pleasantly surprised. The most immediate thing I get from it against more neutral performances is a certain poignancy. He doesn't really mutilate the music, but judiciously tweaks everything to make it into a kind of tone-picture, constantly creeping or developing and not necessarily in ways I would expect - I suppose that is the main feature of interventionist interpretations, what seems a natural choice to one will be a surprise to another. His book 1 is just super, book 2 is on the way.

Is there a certain mastering of these recordings that is preferred, or is it the usual case of "grab what you can find" with this russian stuff?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on February 13, 2011, 05:05:18 AM
Quote from: Lethe on February 12, 2011, 10:58:32 PM
Feinberg is really, really impressive. I expected worse sound quality, so was pleasantly surprised. The most immediate thing I get from it against more neutral performances is a certain poignancy. He doesn't really mutilate the music, but judiciously tweaks everything to make it into a kind of tone-picture, constantly creeping or developing and not necessarily in ways I would expect - I suppose that is the main feature of interventionist interpretations, what seems a natural choice to one will be a surprise to another. His book 1 is just super, book 2 is on the way.

Is there a certain mastering of these recordings that is preferred, or is it the usual case of "grab what you can find" with this russian stuff?

This is the one that I have (and the seller I bought mine from) http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35887&genreid=

(http://www.russiandvd.com/store/assets/product_images/imgs/front/35887.jpg)

I have compared it to this one and preferred the sound of the former:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/july06/Bach_Feinberg_CR065.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: seasons on February 13, 2011, 10:03:36 PM
Leonhardt~  ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 14, 2011, 07:23:26 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on February 12, 2011, 01:13:20 AM
Which recordings do you guys find to be the slowest/most Romantic/indulgent performances of the cycle (single book recordings are fine too)?

These tend to be considered quite negative interpretive traits, but I'd like to seek some out to establish for myself a frame of reference to compare with the usual recommendations.

Sokolov
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on February 14, 2011, 10:11:27 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 12, 2011, 10:09:30 AM
Just keep in mind that Feinberg/Vieru are super performances while Barenboim's is a dud.

Sarge!  Do you have my back here?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sadko on February 14, 2011, 11:56:44 AM
It seems my quite high praise of the Gieseking isn't shared by anyone (?).

After writing it I read some other reviews on the Internet, and I found some of my observations, and many critical aspects. I even got a bit of bad conscience of not having mentioned these more, but looking back I can still stand with the excitement it gave me to listen to him. I didn't go on with the next CDs yet, I'm curious how I'll like these.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on February 14, 2011, 12:04:07 PM
Quote from: Sadko on February 14, 2011, 11:56:44 AM
It seems my quite high praise of the Gieseking isn't shared by anyone (?).

After writing it I read some other reviews on the Internet, and I found some of my observations, and many critical aspects. I even got a bit of bad conscience of not having mentioned these more, but looking back I can still stand with the excitement it gave me to listen to him. I didn't go on with the next CDs yet, I'm curious how I'll like these.

I have trouble imagining these old releases being of interest, except to someone with a specific interest in the history of classical music performance.  But if you are primarily interested in hearing Bach's music, why listen to old recordings of such poor audio quality?  Anyway, to each his own, but honestly if you gave the set to me I would not be able to summon the enthusiasm to open the box.   :P  But that's just me.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Lethevich on February 14, 2011, 12:06:34 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 14, 2011, 12:04:07 PM
I have trouble imagining these old releases being of interest, except to someone with a specific interest in the history of classical music performance.  But if you are primarily interested in hearing Bach's music, why listen to old recordings of such poor audio quality?  Anyway, to each his own, but honestly if you gave the set to me I would not be able to summon the enthusiasm to open the box.   :P  But that's just me.

In the case of the Feinberg, because nobody would have the guts to perform it like that nowadays - it'd be all "super clarity" and "following the composer's intentions" :-\
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on February 14, 2011, 12:09:51 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on February 14, 2011, 12:06:34 PM
In the case of the Feinberg, because nobody would have the guts to perform it like that nowadays - it'd be all "super clarity" and "following the composer's intentions" :-\

That I can see.  I have a recording of Mozart PC 27 with Schnabel introducing bizarre tempo variations.  From the 30's, I think.  Good for novelty, but I don't think I could bear to listen to it all the way through.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sadko on February 14, 2011, 12:40:46 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 14, 2011, 12:04:07 PM
I have trouble imagining these old releases being of interest, except to someone with a specific interest in the history of classical music performance.  But if you are primarily interested in hearing Bach's music, why listen to old recordings of such poor audio quality?  Anyway, to each his own, but honestly if you gave the set to me I would not be able to summon the enthusiasm to open the box.   :P  But that's just me.

I'm as much interested in Bach as in the performer's views on him. To me the "voice" of a musician is equally important for the joy I get from a performance as the work itself. I certainly wouldn't want to have Gieseking to get to know the WTC, but I like to join him on his exploration in this field. As to datedness of the sound: The more interesting I find an interpretation, the more tolerant I get.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on February 14, 2011, 12:55:18 PM
Quote from: Sadko on February 14, 2011, 12:40:46 PM
I'm as much interested in Bach as in the performer's views on him. To me the "voice" of a musician is equally important for the joy I get from a performance as the work itself. I certainly wouldn't want to have Gieseking to get to know the WTC, but I like to join him on his exploration in this field. As to datedness of the sound: The more interesting I find an interpretation, the more tolerant I get.

I'm not getting a feel for what's unique about it.  It's very fast, very light touch, transparent, isn't that fairly typical of what pianists are doing today (and in front of DSD sound recorders)?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 14, 2011, 01:13:50 PM
Quote from: Sadko on February 14, 2011, 12:40:46 PM
I'm as much interested in Bach as in the performer's views on him. To me the "voice" of a musician is equally important for the joy I get from a performance as the work itself. I certainly wouldn't want to have Gieseking to get to know the WTC, but I like to join him on his exploration in this field. As to datedness of the sound: The more interesting I find an interpretation, the more tolerant I get.

Exactly, and you know you've found gold when the performance transcends poor sound.  Too bad that Scarpia isn't on board.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scarpia on February 22, 2011, 09:30:24 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 14, 2011, 01:13:50 PM
Exactly, and you know you've found gold when the performance transcends poor sound.  Too bad that Scarpia isn't on board.

It's always a trade-off.  My rule is not simply to listen to the recording with the best audio quality.  Performance is the most important factor, but in deciding what recordings I am interested in, audio quality is not negligible.  And new recordings don't always sound better than older recordings.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidW on June 26, 2011, 06:36:35 AM
44 pages of posts is simply too much to read for answers... so let me ask plainly... what are your favorite recordings of the WTC Book 1 and the WTC Book 2 performed on harpsichord?  I'm looking for replacements for Berben. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 26, 2011, 07:08:31 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 26, 2011, 06:36:35 AM
44 pages of posts is simply too much to read for answers... so let me ask plainly... what are your favorite recordings of the WTC Book 1 and the WTC Book 2 performed on harpsichord?  I'm looking for replacements for Berben. :)

Well, I'll be interested in hearing Don's & our other experts' updated opinions on this topic.  For me at the moment, I have 5 sets of these works (2 on piano; 2 on harpsichord; & 1 on clavichord, the latter shown below and a fun listen) - my harpsichord sets are:

Glen Wilson & Peter Watchorn -  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachWTCTuma/949289393_zRK8V-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 26, 2011, 07:11:06 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 26, 2011, 06:36:35 AM
44 pages of posts is simply too much to read for answers... so let me ask plainly... what are your favorite recordings of the WTC Book 1 and the WTC Book 2 performed on harpsichord?  I'm looking for replacements for Berben. :)

If it's considered some degree of unanimity as an important factor: Glen Wilson and Gustav Leonhardt.

If we consider recent recordings, I would say Watchorn (Premont don't agree on this recommendation, but, f.i., Don, yes) and other people would say Dantone (our Q, f.i.).

Considering your usual taste, I would also mention Blandine Verlet, an unorthodox superstition of mine.

That said: it exists a lot of excellent versions in the market and we will probably write other 5,000 pages on this issue.   :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on June 26, 2011, 07:14:29 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 26, 2011, 06:36:35 AM
44 pages of posts is simply too much to read for answers... so let me ask plainly... what are your favorite recordings of the WTC Book 1 and the WTC Book 2 performed on harpsichord?  I'm looking for replacements for Berben. :)

I urge to do it anyway! ;D

Still, I'll re-mention my favourites on harpsichord: Glen Wilson (Warner/Teldec, OP  :-\) and Ottavio Dantone (Arts).

I haven't heard Tůma (Arta) or Watchorn (Musica Omnia), which are interesting for being played on clavichord and pedal-harpsichord respectively.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on June 26, 2011, 07:31:37 AM
 Ah, I figured Que would see the Batsignal in the sky. ;D

I've only heard Moroney. I enjoyed it as much as I can enjoy a harpsichord. ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bogey on June 26, 2011, 10:04:24 AM
Quote from: George on June 26, 2011, 07:31:37 AM
Ah, I figured Que would see the Batsignal in the sky. ;D

I've only heard Moroney. I enjoyed it as much as I can enjoy a harpsichord. ;)


;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on June 26, 2011, 12:03:08 PM
Pleasurable performance here from The Helios Guitar Quartet.

http://www.heliosguitarquartet.com/recordings/files/page5_10.mp3
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on June 26, 2011, 12:45:49 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 26, 2011, 07:08:31 AM
Well, I'll be interested in hearing Don's & our other experts' updated opinions on this topic.

Sorry, I don't have any update to offer.  However, I am very interested in Bk. 1 performed by Rebecca Pechefsky on the Quill Classics label.  Has anyone heard this set?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 26, 2011, 01:05:42 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on June 26, 2011, 12:45:49 PM
Sorry, I don't have any update to offer.  However, I am very interested in Bk. 1 performed by Rebecca Pechefsky on the Quill Classics label.  Has anyone heard this set?

Her Bk. 1 looks attractive, but I don't know it. It's so unknown that I am not sure if even Premont has a copy.  ;D

BTW, Don: I am a bit tired of your Bachian inactivity of these last months, so c'mon!  :D

BTW 2: Another interesting and enigmatic WTC (both books, although the Bk. 2 is apparently OOP) is performed by Barbara Klinkhammer. Of course, it's painfully hard to get:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-1/hnum/7345332

I got her Bk. 1 from Germany, but it will probably be here in one month or even more (via USA).

BTW 3: Have you listened to the Bk. 2 performed by Katherine Roberts Perl available on Magnatune?

http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/kperl-clavier3/

:)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidW on June 26, 2011, 02:16:49 PM
I've ordered Leonhardt for Book 1, Wilson for Book 2 and also not WTC related, the Verlet philips duo of the Partitas. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on June 26, 2011, 02:44:59 PM
Quote from: toñito on June 26, 2011, 01:05:42 PM
BTW 2: Another interesting and enigmatic WTC (both books, although the Bk. 2 is apparently OOP) is performed by Barbara Klinkhammer. Of course, it's painfully hard to get:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-1/hnum/7345332

I got her Bk. 1 from Germany, but it will probably be here in one month or even more (via USA).

BTW 3: Have you listened to the Bk. 2 performed by Katherine Roberts Perl available on Magnatune?

http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/kperl-clavier3/

:)

I had never heard of the Klinkhammer sets, but the samples sound very good.  I am familiar with the Perl and find it thoroughly excellent; there are some tempos that are a little on the slow side, but that's no problem from my end.

As far as my lack of Bachian activity on the board, that's just because I wasn't using my computer at all for a few weeks.  That will be happening some over the summer as well.  Next week it's Nevada, next month Colorado and August in Boston.  Then it's back to Albuquerque which has the best weather in the U.S.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 26, 2011, 03:28:01 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on June 26, 2011, 02:44:59 PM
As far as my lack of Bachian activity on the board, that's just because I wasn't using my computer at all for a few weeks.  That will be happening some over the summer as well.  Next week it's Nevada, next month Colorado and August in Boston.  Then it's back to Albuquerque which has the best weather in the U.S.

Glad to know you're fine, Don. I was just a bit puzzled by your scarce activity on the board these days.  :)



Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on June 28, 2011, 05:37:10 AM
Quote from: toñito on June 26, 2011, 01:05:42 PM
Her Bk. 1 looks attractive, but I don't know it. It's so unknown that I am not sure if even Premont has a copy.  ;D

You are right.  I am becoming increasingly frustrated by all those recordings, which are difficult to get hold of, and also by the cost of non-EU purchases (lots of tax and custom fee added). And downloading and mp3 is generally not my business .

Quote from: toñito
BTW 2: Another interesting and enigmatic WTC (both books, although the Bk. 2 is apparently OOP) is performed by Barbara Klinkhammer. Of course, it's painfully hard to get:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-1/hnum/7345332

I got her Bk. 1 from Germany, but it will probably be here in one month or even more (via USA).

Well, I have listened to this a couple of times:

Bach: WTC Book I
Barbara Klinkhammer, harpsichord (recorded 2003)
Instrument by Rainer Schütze, Heidelberg 1980
agenda Verlag, Edition Gregorius

A somewhat understated interpretation IMO lacking sufficient characterisation of the affects in the individual P & F´s giving a rather monochrome impression when listening to more P & F´s. Also Klinkhammer sounds like a pianist coming to the harpsichord rather soon inasmuch her playing contains some pianistic habits among which is a strange and all to short - almost Gouldian - staccato, which she (in an IMO unmusical way) uses throughout in some pieces (e.g. Prelude F-sharp major). But the most annoying thing about her playing is her inconsistent articulation. The way one (from the beginning of a piece) chooses to articulate a fugue subject or a given thematic "cell" should be maintained throughout the piece in question. But Klinkhammer articulates for no obvious reason differently and sometimes in an almost casual way, giving the impression of insufficient preparation (mental or practical -  or both).  I have played these pieces myself (far from perfect), and I have a special interest in the articulation of Bachs works, so maybe I am more sensible to this problem than the average listener, but all in all Klinkhammer´s recording is painfully incompetitive in this crowded field. Her Schütze harpsichord does not sound really period but rather like a mixture of a Mietke copy and a non-period small generic Neupert from the 1960es. The recorded sound is reasonably present and miking is not too close. Book II is in bachorder, but if it turns out to be unavailable, I can live with that.


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on June 28, 2011, 05:44:15 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 26, 2011, 07:08:31 AM
1 on clavichord, the latter shown below and a fun listen

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachWTCTuma/949289393_zRK8V-O.jpg)

As I think Tuma´s playing is a rather serious matter, I am a bit puzzled by you use of the words "fun listen".
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on June 28, 2011, 05:50:06 AM
Quote from: toñito on June 26, 2011, 07:11:06 AM
If it's considered some degree of unanimity as an important factor: Glen Wilson and Gustav Leonhardt.

No unanimity on my part.

Quote from: toñito
If we consider recent recordings, I would say Watchorn (Premont doesn't agree on this recommendation.... )

Only as regards book I.
Book II is another matter.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 28, 2011, 09:00:00 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 28, 2011, 05:44:15 AM
As I think Tuma´s playing is a rather serious matter, I am a bit puzzled by you use of the words "fun listen".

Well, only in the context of not being on piano or harpsichord -  ;) 8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 28, 2011, 04:51:39 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 28, 2011, 05:37:10 AM
You are right.  I am becoming increasingly frustrated by all those recordings, which are difficult to get hold of, and also by the cost of non-EU purchases (lots of tax and custom fee added). And downloading and mp3 is generally not my business.

That's an usual feeling in the modern world, especially if you're a completist. I mean two decades ago, I imagine you would have killed to get all the oppotunities that you have today in order to purchase discs in different parts of the worlds and from different sellers, large and small. But now we want everything immediately, with inmediacy and velocity of Internet...

Taxes are another animal, not psycological, but political. 

Quote from: (: premont :) on June 28, 2011, 05:37:10 AM
Well, I have listened to this a couple of times:

Bach: WTC Book I
Barbara Klinkhammer, harpsichord (recorded 2003)
Instrument by Rainer Schütze, Heidelberg 1980
agenda Verlag, Edition Gregorius

It's a shame; the samples on JPC sounded promising. I ordered the volume two, so I will form my own opinion in the next weeks o months.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 28, 2011, 05:04:53 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 28, 2011, 05:50:06 AM
No unanimity on my part.

Well, I was talking about a statistic fact: these two sets are usually well considered and even highly praised. Anyway, do you consider these sets should be avoided? Because the question was about a "first (or second) set" to replace Berben.

Quote from: (: premont :) on June 28, 2011, 05:50:06 AM
Only as regards book I.
Book II is another matter.

I thought you hadn't purchased the Bk. 2 because of your unfavorable opinion of his Bk. 1.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on June 28, 2011, 11:31:51 PM
Quote from: toñito on June 28, 2011, 04:51:39 PM
That's an usual feeling in the modern world, especially if you're a completist. I mean two decades ago, I imagine you would have killed to get all the oppotunities that you have today in order to purchase discs in different parts of the worlds and from different sellers, large and small. But now we want everything immediately, with inmediacy and velocity of Internet...

Yes, as the options increase in number, we feel prompted to make use of them. A natural reaction, I think.

Quote from: toñito
It's a shame; the samples on JPC sounded promising. I ordered the volume two, so I will form my own opinion in the next weeks o months.

This also shows the danger of blind completism. One sometimes purchases discs which one in retrospective never would dream of purchasing. Every time this happens I become a tad more cautious.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on June 28, 2011, 11:48:23 PM
Quote from: toñito on June 28, 2011, 05:04:53 PM
Well, I was talking about a statistic fact: these two sets are usually well considered and even highly praised. Anyway, do you consider these sets should be avoided? Because the question was about a "first (or second) set" to replace Berben.

No, I do not think Watchorn´s book I should be avoided - and certainly not by a completist. But it is too leaden and special to deserve the rank of a first choice. From the top of my head I think I prefer about 20 of the recordings of book I, I own, to Watchorn´s, among which are even Ahlgrimm´s. Book II is another matter. It stands his approach much better, the music being more "weighty" in its scope and texture.

Quote from: toñito on June 28, 2011, 05:04:53 PM
I thought you hadn't purchased the Bk. 2 because of your unfavorable opinion of his Bk. 1.

Well, like you I own a number of exellent CDs from Watchorns hands (and now feet), so the completist in me ordered Book II. And I intend to order the rest of his Bach cycle too,  I look very much forward f.x. to his AoF and Partitas.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 29, 2011, 03:24:48 AM
Your replies are crystal clear, Premont, but this question was about Wilson and Leonhardt:

Quote from: toñito on June 28, 2011, 05:04:53 PM
Well, I was talking about a statistic fact: these two sets are usually well considered and even highly praised. Anyway, do you consider these sets should be avoided? Because the question was about a "first (or second) set" to replace Berben.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on June 29, 2011, 04:40:31 AM
Quote from: toñito on June 29, 2011, 03:24:48 AM
Your replies are crystal clear, Premont, but this question was about Wilson and Leonhardt:

Sorry I got you wrong, because I did not read the former posts before answering, and perhaps also because I did not in my wildest fantasies suppose, that you meant to ask me if I think Wilson and Leonhardt should be avoided.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 29, 2011, 09:48:45 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 29, 2011, 04:40:31 AM
Sorry I got you wrong, because I did not read the former posts before answering, and perhaps also because I did not in my wildest fantasies suppose, that you meant to ask me if I think Wilson and Leonhardt should be avoided.

Yes, it was exactly my reaction when I did read: "No unanimity on my part" on your Reply #893.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 29, 2011, 08:25:54 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 28, 2011, 11:48:23 PM
No, I do not think Watchorn´s book I should be avoided - and certainly not by a completist. But it is too leaden and special to deserve the rank of a first choice...

BTW, I emphatically disagree about this, but I prefer to listen to again this Bk. 1 before posting any more detailed comment. I have not listened to Watchorn's WTC for some months, but I recall his Bk. 1 as deeply musical, with a wide range of affetti superbly expressed, well recorded on a beautiful instrument and with a very pleasant use of Lehman's tuning. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 01, 2011, 07:03:54 AM
Quote from: toñito on June 29, 2011, 09:48:45 AM
Yes, it was exactly my reaction when I did read: "No unanimity on my part" on your Reply #893.

My fault. :-[ I misinterpreted the word unanimity, thinking it meant un-animity (disagreement) instead of un(a)-animity (agreement).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 01, 2011, 07:05:30 AM
Quote from: toñito on June 29, 2011, 08:25:54 PM
... I prefer to listen to again this Bk. 1 before posting any more detailed comment...

So do I.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bogey on July 12, 2011, 01:15:46 PM
For 5 bones, could not resist getting this set:

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/Richter011-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 12, 2011, 01:17:30 PM
Quote from: Bogey on July 12, 2011, 01:15:46 PM
For 5 bones, could not resist getting this set:

I just hope they weren't yours! The bones I mean!  ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bogey on July 12, 2011, 01:19:52 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 12, 2011, 01:17:30 PM
I just hope they weren't yours! The bones I mean!  ;D

May just be worth the real ones....I'll let you know. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: jwinter on July 20, 2011, 12:20:38 PM
A bit late I realize, but I'm currently listening to Gieseking's WTC, Book 1.  I was catching up on this thread and saw it mentioned, and then remembered that I had found a copy at my library last year and ripped it to MP3 along with a bunch of other stuff. 

Overall this is better than I was expecting -- after one spin it's not breaking in among my favorites by any stretch, but I'm glad I've finally given it a listen.  It has lousy sound quality (most likely due to excessive noise reduction, as I think George mentioned), and his speeds are a bit fast for me at times, although not universally so (I'm hearing BWV 849 now, and it's rather leisurely). 

[asin]B00000E4IK[/asin]

By the by, there also seems to be another Gieseking WTC out now, recorded for Saar Radio according to Amazon...

[asin]B003X859N4[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on July 22, 2011, 02:20:24 PM
Quote from: jwinter on July 20, 2011, 12:20:38 PM
A bit late I realize, but I'm currently listening to Gieseking's WTC, Book 1.  I was catching up on this thread and saw it mentioned, and then remembered that I had found a copy at my library last year and ripped it to MP3 along with a bunch of other stuff. 

Overall this is better than I was expecting --

Unfortunately, I was very disappointed in the Gieseking set.  Yes, the sound is poor, but I think Gieseking does nothing to rise above it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 22, 2011, 08:56:12 PM
Quote from: Bogey on July 12, 2011, 01:15:46 PM
For 5 bones, could not resist getting this set:

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/Richter011-1.jpg)

Part of the problem there, for me, is that it's quite closely miked and for me that almost kills the music making -- it makes her instrument sound too powerful. All her later harpsichord recordings are like this and for me they are awful to listen to. The Playel she used was a quiet instrument and I guess her producers thought that the public demanded something more in your face. Interpretively the WTC is very interesting and she has a tremendous rhythmic facility. But if you want to hear her at her best you need to go to earlier recordings -- the first A minor English suite (not the second), the Rameau E minor suite. for example.

Still  she is a genius and I'm glad to have her WTC

Quote from: jwinter on July 20, 2011, 12:20:38 PM

By the by, there also seems to be another Gieseking WTC out now, recorded for Saar Radio according to Amazon...


I think they are the same performance. Gieseking was on a performance treadmill after the war and some of his records show this.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on November 22, 2011, 09:41:46 AM
I acquired this set about 2 weeks ago.  I'm finding it very rewarding although I'm not sold yet on how she plays Bach's "dark" pieces.


[asin]B002C68WSC[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on February 07, 2012, 06:17:06 AM
Beyond Robert Levin's are there recordings of the pairs from the WTK -- one, two, many or the whole lot -- played on an organ?


EDIT: All right, I see that Lagacé and one Frederic Desenclos are mentioned already in this thread. If there are others, please let me know. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 07, 2012, 06:44:33 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 07, 2012, 06:17:06 AM
Beyond Robert Levin's are there recordings of the pairs from the WTK -- one, two, many or the whole lot -- played on an organ?

Yes, the whole shebang here:

[asin]B002TIYP7U[/asin]

Extra info and samples: http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-1-2/hnum/7556747

The complete WTC also was recorded by Bernard Lagacé on Analekta (1965 Rudolph von Beckerath organ at the Église Immaculée-Conception, Montreal), as invividual CDs and as a part of his integral recording of Bach's organ works.

Daniel Chorzempa also recorded the two books using different instruments (harpsichord, organ, clavichord & fortepiano), as Levin, but his complete set is sadly OOP.

:)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on February 07, 2012, 09:02:35 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 07, 2012, 06:44:33 AM
Yes, the whole shebang here:

[asin]B002TIYP7U[/asin]

Extra info and samples: http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Das-Wohltemperierte-Klavier-1-2/hnum/7556747

The complete WTC also was recorded by Bernard Lagacé on Analekta (1965 Rudolph von Beckerath organ at the Église Immaculée-Conception, Montreal), as invividual CDs and as a part of his integral recording of Bach's organ works.

Daniel Chorzempa also recorded the two books using different instruments (harpsichord, organ, clavichord & fortepiano), as Levin, but his complete set is sadly OOP.

:)

There is another (or third) version af WTC book II by Christoph Bossert:

Johann Sebastian Bach: Das wohltemperierte Clavier, 2. Teil
24 Präludien und Fugen BWV 870–893
Christoph Bossert, Orgel. Aufgenommen 1998 an der Ehrlich-Orgel der Evangelischen Stadtkirche zu Bad Wimpfen (Deutschland). Ars Musici 1257-2. 3 CD.


It is about five years since I last listened to it. Compared to Desenclos I remember Bossert as being a bit unimaginative, - or maybe I did not listen enough to his interpretation  ;).

http://www.amazon.de/Das-Wohltemperierte-Clavier-Christoph-Bossert/dp/B000023ZTA/ref=sr_1_256?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1328638575&sr=1-256
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on February 07, 2012, 09:07:53 AM
Thanks, gentlemen.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Geo Dude on February 07, 2012, 10:18:50 AM
Now that Schornsheim's WTC has been out for a bit, I'm curious to know what the general consensus on the recording is.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 07, 2012, 10:57:28 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 07, 2012, 09:02:35 AM
There is another (or third) version af WTC book II by Christoph Bossert:

Johann Sebastian Bach: Das wohltemperierte Clavier, 2. Teil
24 Präludien und Fugen BWV 870–893
Christoph Bossert, Orgel. Aufgenommen 1998 an der Ehrlich-Orgel der Evangelischen Stadtkirche zu Bad Wimpfen (Deutschland). Ars Musici 1257-2. 3 CD.


It is about five years since I last listened to it. Compared to Desenclos I remember Bossert as being a bit unimaginative, - or maybe I did not listen enough to his interpretation ;).

http://www.amazon.de/Das-Wohltemperierte-Clavier-Christoph-Bossert/dp/B000023ZTA/ref=sr_1_256?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1328638575&sr=1-256

Yes, who knows, maybe he was interesting, but you weren't interested. ;D

Just for the record: Joseph Payne also plays some multi-instrumental proto-WTC in his recording of the Clavier-Büchlein für Wilhelm Friedemann Bach. But there just one of the eleven Praeludium is played on organ, the others on harpsichord and clavichord.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Leo K. on February 07, 2012, 12:42:02 PM
(http://www.fishfinemusic.com.au/product_images/q/662/HMU90743334__82298_std.jpg)

I'm continually returning to Egarr's account of WTC book 2. It's making me love Book 2, whereas before I only respected it. I've never heard any Bach like Egarr's book 1 and 2. Incredible.

8)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on February 07, 2012, 01:07:42 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 07, 2012, 10:57:28 AM
Yes, who knows, maybe he was interesting, but you weren't interested. ;D

Wonder if I get the time to listen to it again. There is too much else waiting for me to listen to.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand
Just for the record: Joseph Payne also plays some multi-instrumental proto-WTC in his recording of the Clavier-Büchlein für Wilhelm Friedemann Bach. But there just one of the eleven Praeludium is played on organ, the others on harpsichord and clavichord.

One more: I used to own a recording (on LP) by Anthony Newman of book II, where he used organ, harpsichord and clavichord. However I parted with it, as I could not stand his superficial style in the long run.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on February 07, 2012, 01:12:05 PM
Quote from: Leo K on February 07, 2012, 12:42:02 PM
(http://www.fishfinemusic.com.au/product_images/q/662/HMU90743334__82298_std.jpg)

I'm continually returning to Egarr's account of WTC book 2. It's making me love Book 2, whereas before I only respected it. I've never heard any Bach like Egarr's book 1 and 2. Incredible.

8)

Egarr´s recording of Book I turned me off his Bach, and I have not acquired his Book II. I find his Book I sleepy and underarticulated.  Is his Book II that different?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Leo K. on February 07, 2012, 02:29:01 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 07, 2012, 01:12:05 PM
Egarr´s recording of Book I turned me off his Bach, and I have not acquired his Book II. I find his Book I sleepy and underarticulated.  Is his Book II that different?

His Book 2 is in the same style, so you probably wouldn't want it.  Egarr's "cantabile heaven" is all over it. In my opinion it fits book 2 rather well, perhaps better than book 1. Perhaps.

8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 07, 2012, 09:03:56 PM
Quote from: Leo K on February 07, 2012, 02:29:01 PM
His Book 2 is in the same style, so you probably wouldn't want it.  Egarr's "cantabile heaven" is all over it. In my opinion it fits book 2 rather well, perhaps better than book 1. Perhaps.

8)

While "cantabile heaven" is a nice place to visit now and then, it gets a little tiring when his interpretations lack some drama, incisiveness and excitement.

For about a year now, I've been playing the WTC's from Egarr, Dantone and Ashkenazy non-stop in my vehicle (my favored versions don't leave the house).  Each of the three has its pros and cons.  I really hate that the Dantone only has one track for each prelude/fugue combination; it's a major pain to simply listen to a particular fugue.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Geo Dude on February 08, 2012, 02:54:54 AM
I found Watchorn's WTC 1 (my first experience with the WTC 1) a bit heavy, but his WTC 2 is amazing.  I'll need to do some re-listening, of course, but I'm looking forward to seeing how Dantone's WTC 1 compares.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Leo K. on February 08, 2012, 05:00:26 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 08, 2012, 02:54:54 AM
I found Watchorn's WTC 1 (my first experience with the WTC 1) a bit heavy, but his WTC 2 is amazing.  I'll need to do some re-listening, of course, but I'm looking forward to seeing how Dantone's WTC 1 compares.

I also find Watchorn's WTC 1 a little heavy, but I keep hearing how amazing his WTC 2 is, that may be my next purchase, the samples do sound good too.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Geo Dude on February 08, 2012, 06:05:58 AM
Quote from: Leo K on February 08, 2012, 05:00:26 AM
I also find Watchorn's WTC 1 a little heavy, but I keep hearing how amazing his WTC 2 is, that may be my next purchase, the samples do sound good too.

It seems we may have similar tastes, then.  In any case, I've only listened to one disc of the WTC 2 thus far, but it has been jaw-dropping.  I will also say that my concern with dragging tempos and ponderousness which resulted from the fact that it's a three disc set has been proven false.  He hits the fast lane when he feels it's necessary.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 08, 2012, 10:12:39 AM
I just read a Fanfare review of Bach's WTC performed by harpsichordist Edith Picht-Axenfeld.  The reviewer is Christopher Brodersen, and the following comment struck me as pretty stupid:

"I'm always a bit puzzled why harpsichordists should choose to record this music, since (a) there are already a gazillion versions in the catalog, and (b) Bach probably never intended his pedagogical monument for public performance in the first place."

Seems reasonable to me that harpsichordists love to record the WTC because it's the greatest solo harpsichord music ever composed.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Karl Henning on February 08, 2012, 10:18:30 AM
You're right, Don: Broderson's remark is indefensibly stupid.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Geo Dude on February 08, 2012, 10:31:58 AM
Upon reading that comment I immediately have to wonder if the reviewer feels that pianists shouldn't bother recording it, either.  After all, there are far more piano recordings out there than harpsichord recordings.  Forgive me if I presume too much here, but something about that statement causes me to read it as 'I don't like harpsichord recordings.'
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on February 08, 2012, 10:47:03 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 08, 2012, 10:31:58 AM
Upon reading that comment I immediately have to wonder if the reviewer feels that pianists shouldn't bother recording it, either.  After all, there are far more piano recordings out there than harpsichord recordings.  Forgive me if I presume too much here, but something about that statement causes me to read it as 'I don't like harpsichord recordings.'

I was thinking the same thing.  However, I read a few more Bach harpsichord reviews by Brodersen where that type of bias doesn't seem to exist.

So, I end up just feeling that he made a stupid comment that he'd probably like to take back (like the many that Mitt Romney has made).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Karl Henning on February 08, 2012, 10:53:35 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 08, 2012, 10:47:03 AM
(like the many that Mitt Romney has made).

And will continue to make . . . .
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on February 08, 2012, 07:18:43 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 08, 2012, 10:31:58 AM
Upon reading that comment I immediately have to wonder if the reviewer feels that pianists shouldn't bother recording it, either.  After all, there are far more piano recordings out there than harpsichord recordings.  Forgive me if I presume too much here, but something about that statement causes me to read it as 'I don't like harpsichord recordings.'
Maybe Brodersen only cares about middle-class harpsichordists.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on February 08, 2012, 08:08:29 PM
Please be fair to Romney.  AFAIK, he's never said anything so superlatively stupid  as Brodersen's comment.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on February 09, 2012, 12:01:36 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 08, 2012, 10:12:39 AM
I just read a Fanfare review of Bach's WTC performed by harpsichordist Edith Picht-Axenfeld.  The reviewer is Christopher Brodersen, and the following comment struck me as pretty stupid:

"I'm always a bit puzzled why harpsichordists should choose to record this music, since (a) there are already a gazillion versions in the catalog, and (b) Bach probably never intended his pedagogical monument for public performance in the first place."

Seems reasonable to me that harpsichordists love to record the WTC because it's the greatest solo harpsichord music ever composed.

Why did he choose to (or not opt out of trying) to review it is beyond me! Even if Bach did not intend this to be performed in the typical sense of the word, doesn't the fact that he [Mr. Broderson] is reviewing a performance lend some credence to the 'musicality' of the work? And if he denies this, then on what basis does he generally review the work??  ???

[All right... I know, I know, this is all obvious, but I just had to get it out.  0:)]


P.S.: Please don't bring politics in here. Otherwise, I will tell on those who do to Uncle Que.  $:)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PaulSC on February 19, 2012, 09:45:01 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 08, 2012, 10:12:39 AM
I just read a Fanfare review of Bach's WTC performed by harpsichordist Edith Picht-Axenfeld.  The reviewer is Christopher Brodersen, and the following comment struck me as pretty stupid:

"I'm always a bit puzzled why harpsichordists should choose to record this music, since (a) there are already a gazillion versions in the catalog, and (b) Bach probably never intended his pedagogical monument for public performance in the first place."

Seems reasonable to me that harpsichordists love to record the WTC because it's the greatest solo harpsichord music ever composed.

Not to beat a dead horse, but is it really true that "there are already a gazillion versions in the catalog"? Maybe there are more than I realize, but I can't think of more than maybe a dozen WTC recordings on harpsichord that are still in production.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Geo Dude on February 19, 2012, 10:39:03 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on February 19, 2012, 09:45:01 AM
Not to beat a dead horse, but is it really true that "there are already a gazillion versions in the catalog"? Maybe there are more than I realize, but I can't think of more than maybe a dozen WTC recordings on harpsichord that are still in production.

I'm guessing that the reviewer was speaking of a gazillion piano recordings.  That's the only semi-logical way one can interpret it, and it's still ridiculous.  Sure, there are many recordings of the WTC on a different instrument, so why would harpsichordists bother with it? ::)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Geo Dude on February 26, 2012, 01:25:58 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on June 26, 2011, 12:45:49 PM
Sorry, I don't have any update to offer.  However, I am very interested in Bk. 1 performed by Rebecca Pechefsky on the Quill Classics label.  Has anyone heard this set?

I listened to the first disc of this set earlier today.  Based on that preliminary listen, I would say it's very...relaxed.  Too much for my tastes.  Tempos are moderate to a fault.  The best way I can think of to put it is that it sounds like Egarr on depressants.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Leo K. on March 05, 2012, 03:47:27 PM
Has anyone heard Martin Stadtfeld? And what to they think?

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/sony88697423712.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 06, 2012, 04:47:24 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on February 27, 2012, 12:36:23 AM
Leonhardt's on ProArte.

(http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-iWXCAnShR4w/Tss7488A57I/AAAAAAAACqM/zSyRwRJtnMA/s800/DSC03465.JPG)

Did Leonhardt actually record for Pro-Arte or is this some re-issue?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on March 06, 2012, 05:26:16 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on March 06, 2012, 05:23:44 PM
The back of the informative 12-page note-insert that came with the set states it was recorded June 1969, and that it is copyrighted by Deutsche-Harmonia Mundi, and licensed under agreement with them.

This issue is from 1981.

So the now defunct Pro-Arte was like BC.  I have Leonhardt's Goldberg Variations on Pro-Arte as well ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scion7 on March 06, 2012, 05:32:04 PM
And I must have not been paying attention because my stupid first post is in the WRONG TOPIC - should have been under the Art of Fugue thread.

Crimeny!

removed and posted where it belongs
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 06, 2012, 08:39:20 PM
Quote from: Leo K on March 05, 2012, 03:47:27 PM
Has anyone heard Martin Stadtfeld? And what to they think?

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/sony88697423712.jpg)

So far, I like the set.  Stadtfeld displays plenty of exuberance when needed as well as a very dark character in the slow and remorseful pieces.  Nothing eccentric goes on, although the very quick last prelude/fugue set did surprise me, especially the "power-up" fugue performance.

Just two negatives from my end.  I would have liked stronger accenting in the fast pieces; some of the "runs" are not well detailed.  As usual with me, I found the sound rather wet; the Prelude in C major was dripping with moisture.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on March 06, 2012, 09:02:44 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 06, 2012, 08:39:20 PM
As usual with me, I found the sound rather wet; the Prelude in C major was dripping with moisture.

There are wet piano recordings too?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 06, 2012, 09:25:55 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 06, 2012, 09:02:44 PM
There are wet piano recordings too?

Sure, any instrument/voice is potentially in the "wet zone".
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Leo K. on March 07, 2012, 07:33:09 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 06, 2012, 08:39:20 PM
So far, I like the set.  Stadtfeld displays plenty of exuberance when needed as well as a very dark character in the slow and remorseful pieces.  Nothing eccentric goes on, although the very quick last prelude/fugue set did surprise me, especially the "power-up" fugue performance.

Just two negatives from my end.  I would have liked stronger accenting in the fast pieces; some of the "runs" are not well detailed.  As usual with me, I found the sound rather wet; the Prelude in C major was dripping with moisture.

Much thanks! I will go ahead and get this recording.

8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Feijenoord on March 07, 2012, 02:59:58 PM
I recently tried (for maybe the fourth or fifth time) to listen to Leonhardt on the WTC. Again, I had to stop and suffered from a terrible headache afterwards. I still don't understand why would one play, and even less listen, to such a barbaric instrument as the harpsichord. The piano is so much more poetic, technically superior, had he known it certainly Bach would never have played the harpsichord again ! I love the WTC by great pianist Andras Schiff, it must be my favourite (I never really liked Gould). You don't know anything about Bach if you don't know this interpretation.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2012, 03:44:19 PM
We hadn't had one of these for some time. I had even forgotten how they look. Anyway, this one is particularly unrefined.  :(
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2012, 04:35:11 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2012, 03:44:19 PM
We hadn't had one of these for some time. I had even forgotten how they look. Anyway, this one is particularly unrefined.  :(

Didn't there used to be a nest of them around here somewhere? ::)

Actually, Bach did have a go at a piano. He wasn't impressed. Nor am I, actually. He might have written his music differently for a different instrument, but one can hardly call that an improvement. If Robin Hood had a machine gun, he would have never used the bow and arrow again...   >:D

8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidW on March 07, 2012, 04:40:21 PM
I think that Leonhardt is awesome in the WTC and Art of the Fugue, but that's just me. :)

I understand that the sound of the harpsichord is not for everyone, I prefer the piano also, but I think that Leonhardt's artistry really shines.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 07, 2012, 05:52:51 PM
Quote from: Feijenoord on March 07, 2012, 02:59:58 PM
I recently tried (for maybe the fourth or fifth time) to listen to Leonhardt on the WTC. Again, I had to stop and suffered from a terrible headache afterwards. I still don't understand why would one play, and even less listen, to such a barbaric instrument as the harpsichord. The piano is so much more poetic, technically superior, had he known it certainly Bach would never have played the harpsichord again ! I love the WTC by great pianist Andras Schiff, it must be my favourite (I never really liked Gould). You don't know anything about Bach if you don't know this interpretation.

You must be new in these parts.  Try not to be so highly opinionated and unreasonable.

I do have sympathy for your low pain threshold, but you need to understand that many Bach enthusiasts have no problem listening to a harpsichord for hours on end.  Put another way, your personal preferences do not define how Bach should be played; mine do (kidding).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Clever Hans on March 07, 2012, 07:19:01 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 07, 2012, 05:52:51 PM
You must be new in these parts.  Try not to be so highly opinionated and unreasonable.

I do have sympathy for your low pain threshold, but you need to understand that many Bach enthusiasts have no problem listening to a harpsichord for hours on end.  Put another way, your personal preferences do not define how Bach should be played; mine do (kidding).

Well, the sound of that Leonhardt WTC release is a little "hot" and piercing, particularly Book II. Not so bad on speakers though.
That's a good rule of thumb for any harpsichord recordings or mono recordings especially, no? They always sound better on speakers than headphones.

Incidentally, there's a Japanese DSD remaster that's noticeably better.
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B001IZ5B2I/
also apparently in non hybrid sacd form in this box set, which is the same price. But only the Goldberg Variations are also similarly remastered, it would appear.
http://www.amazon.co.jp/バッハ-鍵盤作品集成-レオンハルト-グスタフ/dp/B001TGU7BQ/


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 07, 2012, 07:31:06 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on March 07, 2012, 07:19:01 PM
Well, the sound of that Leonhardt WTC release is a little "hot" and piercing, particularly Book II. Not so bad on speakers though.
That's a good rule of thumb for any harpsichord recordings or mono recordings especially, no? They always sound better on speakers than headphones.

These are personal things.  Can't say I prefer harpsichord or mono recordings on speakers.  For me, the speaker preference is with orchestral music.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Bulldog on March 07, 2012, 07:35:47 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 07, 2012, 04:35:11 PM
If Robin Hood had a machine gun, he would have never used the bow and arrow again...   >:D

8)

I laugh every time I read this sentence. ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Clever Hans on March 07, 2012, 08:02:40 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 07, 2012, 07:31:06 PM
These are personal things.  Can't say I prefer harpsichord or mono recordings on speakers.  For me, the speaker preference is with orchestral music.

I don't think it's as simple as personal preference.

Granted there is the intellectual intimacy of headphones, which may be preferred.

But not in terms of a recording sounding more "natural", i.e. with greater depth and acoustic presence. I think one can say there is a fundamental physical difference with speakers. Orchestras have very limited resonance on headphones, even if parts could potentially be more clearly heard.

Old mono recordings, like Schnabel's, sound small on headphones but take on new life when they have an actual room in which to breathe.
I find this also applies to harpsichord harmonics.

And rock and roll, forget about it, no contest.

Besides what kind of nerd enjoys a drink and reposes with headphones on?  ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Scion7 on March 08, 2012, 12:33:13 AM
Don't understand how the harpsichord can give you a headache - unless you had the volume up to high.
"Barbaric" instrument?  Wha?

The only barbaric instrument I know is a "turntable" - when some idiot thought that moving a record back/forth with his hand - resulting in the obvious noise - constituted music a la hip-hop.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2012, 09:49:50 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 10, 2012, 02:17:25 AM
The border between organ- and harpsichord/clavichord music was not fixed that clear in these days. Many pieces fall in the grey zone e.g. the manualiter pieces of CÜ III, the manualiter toccatas, the concerto transcriptions manualiter, the WTC to mention a few, which just being keyboard music work well on both instruments. So there was no need for transcription.

Can you recommend an organ recording of WTC?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on May 10, 2012, 10:19:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 10, 2012, 09:49:50 AM
Can you recommend an organ recording of WTC?

I'm not premont, but I asked the same question some time ago, and his reply is included there for your convenience. :)

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,768.msg599453.html#msg599453
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2012, 10:23:49 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 10, 2012, 10:19:32 AM
I'm not premont, but I asked the same question some time ago, and his reply is included there for your convenience. :)

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,768.msg599453.html#msg599453

Cool. Desenclos is on Spotify so it's easy to try out.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on May 10, 2012, 11:28:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 10, 2012, 09:49:50 AM
Can you recommend an organ recording of WTC?

I know three and a half complete recordings on organ of Book I and II:

Louis Thiery (Arion).
A symphatic somewhat pure sounding version with nice part playing in the fugues.

Bernard Lagacé (Analecta).
A fair and relative non interventionalist version on a rather unsensational organ.

Frédéric Desenclos (Triton).
A somewhat strict version, spiritually it reminds me of Walcha´s WTC, but it is more informed.

Christoph Bossert (Ars Musici - only Book II).
More non interventionalist than Lagacé and not that exiting.

Which one I prefer?

1) Desenclos
2) Thiery
3) Lagacé
4) Bossert



Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on May 11, 2012, 08:04:27 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 10, 2012, 11:28:33 AM
I know three and a half complete recordings on organ of Book I and II:

Louis Thiery (Arion).
A symphatic somewhat pure sounding version with nice part playing in the fugues.

Bernard Lagacé (Analecta).
A fair and relative non interventionalist version on a rather unsensational organ.

Frédéric Desenclos (Triton).
A somewhat strict version, spiritually it reminds me of Walcha´s WTC, but it is more informed.

Christoph Bossert (Ars Musici - only Book II).
More non interventionalist than Lagacé and not that exiting.

Which one I prefer?

1) Desenclos
2) Thiery
3) Lagacé
4) Bossert
Interesting. I was just sampling the Frédéric Desenclos (after reading your post). I'm wondering, how drawn are you to this music played on organ?
Does it all work well this way? Does it add to your enjoyment of the WTC? I love Levin's limited use of organ on his recording (but I also love the variety of instruments therein).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on May 11, 2012, 08:26:37 AM
Quote from: milk on May 11, 2012, 08:04:27 AM
Interesting. I was just sampling the Frédéric Desenclos (after reading your post). I'm wondering, how drawn are you to this music played on organ?
Does it all work well this way? Does it add to your enjoyment of the WTC? I love Levin's limited use of organ on his recording (but I also love the variety of instruments therein).

I think it generally works well on organ, but some of the P&F´s work better than others (e.g. a-minor form Book I, E-major and  B flat-minor from Book II). All in all though I prefer the work played on harpsichord. Being fed up with the work on harpsichord I may however be biased. In Bach´s time it was natural to play keyboard works like this on the keyboard instrument one had at hand. Levin and Chorzempa play only some of the P&F´s on organ - obviously the ones they think are suited for organ. If you want, I can make a small survey of their recordings as to which instrument they use in which pieces.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on May 11, 2012, 08:04:00 PM
What happened to Don? I see he quit the site recently.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on May 11, 2012, 08:52:17 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 11, 2012, 08:04:00 PM
What happened to Don? I see he quit the site recently.

I'm still here; just changed my name.  Being in the Witness Protection Program has its disadvantages. ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: DavidRoss on May 12, 2012, 04:47:57 AM
Quote from: Sammy on May 11, 2012, 08:52:17 PM
I'm still here; just changed my name.  Being in the Witness Protection Program has its disadvantages. ;D
Yeah, but...all the pizza you can eat?!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on May 12, 2012, 09:36:29 AM
A couple of random WTC things.

1. I've been dipping into Walcha's second record on DG over the past few days. In fact it doesn't seem that different to the first one -- or have I missed something? I know he uses a restored harpsichord for DG, but the Ammer doesn't sound too bad. On the contrary. And I know he takes more repeats for DG, but he often just uses a stop to mark the repeat. The basic conception of the music seems the same to me, though I do slightly prefer the DG, but I couldn't say why.

Anyway the DG one seems out of print. I'll put it on symphonyshare if anyone signals an interest.


2. The WTC that has given me the most pleasure recently -- maybe the most pleasure ever -- is Rubsam's selection on Naxos. What a shame he doesn't play more! It's made me hungry for a clavichord version, with a nice instrument, but played more flexibly than Kirkpatrick's (which I like in fact.) I.e. I want a clavichord version played with rubato Rubsam style. Suggestions appreciated.

Maybe Bach preferred clavichord to harpsichord for for the expression of his most refined thoughts.  It seems strange that there aren't more clavichord recordings from HIP musicians. Or maybe I've missed them.


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on May 12, 2012, 09:59:38 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 12, 2012, 09:36:29 AM
It seems strange that there aren't more clavichord recordings from HIP musicians.

It could be due to the notorious issue of the volume of the instrument as heard through an audio system (as opposed to playing it or sitting next to someone who is in a household room).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on May 12, 2012, 10:14:05 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 12, 2012, 09:59:38 AM
It could be due to the notorious issue of the volume of the instrument as heard through an audio system (as opposed to playing it or sitting next to someone who is in a household room).

That's interesting -- you mean most people play it too loud through their hi-fis?

If I remember right Kirkpatrick issued a warning on his CD to keep the volume down -- and that certainly seems to improve the listening experience for me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on May 12, 2012, 10:22:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 12, 2012, 10:14:05 AM
That's interesting -- you mean most people play it too loud through their hi-fis?

If I remember right Kirkpatrick issued a warning on his CD to keep the volume down -- and that certainly seems to improve the listening experience for me.

Hi- or low-fi, speaking from personal experience, the instrument as heard through speakers at a "normal" volume is hard to hear and appreciate. And I've read others complain of the same problem. But given how much CPE (don't know about JS) loved his instrument, I imagine that it sounds better in person.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on May 12, 2012, 10:28:16 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 12, 2012, 10:14:05 AM
That's interesting -- you mean most people play it too loud through their hi-fis?

If I remember right Kirkpatrick issued a warning on his CD to keep the volume down -- and that certainly seems to improve the listening experience for me.

Is this supposed to be the difference between hi-fi vs, mid-fi and lo-fi and that is real hi-fi should have excellent resolution that you can hear the details of your music at low volume?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on May 12, 2012, 10:34:44 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 12, 2012, 10:22:08 AM
Hi- or low-fi, speaking from personal experience, the instrument as heard through speakers at a "normal" volume is hard to hear and appreciate. And I've read others complain of the same problem. But given how much CPE (don't know about JS) loved his instrument, I imagine that it sounds better in person.

The idea that JSB liked the clavichord  comes from Forkel who says he learnt it from interviews with JSB's sons. I think there's a suggestion that JSB actively disliked the harpsichord (too soulless) and the piano (crude)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on May 12, 2012, 10:37:09 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 12, 2012, 10:34:44 AM
The idea that JSB liked the clavichord  comes from Forkel.

Thanks. He could well have; I do not intend to argue against the notion. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on May 12, 2012, 11:41:02 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 12, 2012, 10:28:16 AM
Is this supposed to be the difference between hi-fi vs, mid-fi and lo-fi and that is real hi-fi should have excellent resolution that you can hear the details of your music at low volume?

I doubt it.  It's simply that the clavichord is a very intimate instrument and playing a recording at a high volume level will distort the pleasures of listening to the instrument and blow its intimate nature out of the water.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on May 12, 2012, 11:48:54 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 12, 2012, 10:34:44 AM
The idea that JSB liked the clavichord  comes from Forkel who says he learnt it from interviews with JSB's sons. I think there's a suggestion that JSB actively disliked the harpsichord (too soulless) and the piano (crude)

Do you subscribe to the premise that the harpsichord lacks soul?  From the dozens of years I've listened to harpsichord recordings, the only deficiency of soul comes from the performer.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on May 12, 2012, 06:58:34 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 11, 2012, 08:26:37 AM
I think it generally works well on organ, but some of the P&F´s work better than others (e.g. a-minor form Book I, E-major and  B flat-minor from Book II). All in all though I prefer the work played on harpsichord. Being fed up with the work on harpsichord I may however be biased. In Bach´s time it was natural to play keyboard works like this on the keyboard instrument one had at hand. Levin and Chorzempa play only some of the P&F´s on organ - obviously the ones they think are suited for organ. If you want, I can make a small survey of their recordings as to which instrument they use in which pieces.
Thanks for the response. I have the Levin but not the Chorzempa. I'm a little confused because it's hard to find information about the Chorzempa recording. So, he plays harpsichord on some of the P&F's? I'm not sure I fully understand your post. Why are you fed up with the work on harpsichord? I'm trying to temper my need to collect everything (except piano recordings - which I haven't listened to in years). Maybe I should be satisfied with what I have, unless people feel like other organ recordings of the WTC are revelatory. I feel like I have all the essential recordings of the WTC but somehow still want more. I was disappointed by Christine Schornsheim. I liked some of the samples of the Frédéric Desenclos. I guess I'm trying to decide if I really need it in my life.   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on May 14, 2012, 11:39:55 AM
The Charles Sanford Terry translation of Forkel's monograph says that JSB thought that the harpsichord is "susceptible of great variety of tone" and that he also thought that it is "lacking in soul."

It would be interesting (to me) to know what concept the word "soul" translates, and indeed the word "tone." I can't read German well enough to find out myself.

Forkel goes on to say that he thought the Clavichord "the best instrument." There's a footnote to say that this may not be accurate,  since he had no clavichords when he died.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sadko on May 14, 2012, 03:12:30 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 14, 2012, 11:39:55 AM
The Charles Sanford Terry translation of Forkel's monograph says that JSB thought that the harpsichord is "susceptible of great variety of tone" and that he also thought that it is "lacking in soul."

It would be interesting (to me) to know what concept the word "soul" translates, and indeed the word "tone." I can't read German well enough to find out myself.

Forkel goes on to say that he thought the Clavichord "the best instrument." There's a footnote to say that this may not be accurate,  since he had no clavichords when he died.

If you have the German text I can have a look at it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on May 14, 2012, 09:35:03 PM
Am liebsten spielte er auf dem Clavichord. Die sogenannten Flügel, obgleich auch auf ihnen ein gar verschiedener Vortrag statt findet, waren ihm doch zu seelenlos, und die Pianoforte waren bey seinem Leben noch zu sehr in ihrer ersten Entstehung, und noch viel zu plump, als daß sie ihm hätten Genüge thun können. Er hielt daher das Clavichord für das beste Instrument zum Studiren, so wie überhaupt zur musikalischen Privatunterhaltung. Er fand es zum Vortrag seiner feinsten Gedanken am bequemsten, und glaubte nicht, daß auf irgend einem Flügel oder Pianoforte eine solche Mannigfaltigkeit in den Schattirungen des Tons hervor gebracht werden könne, als auf diesem zwar Ton-armen, aber im Kleinen außerordentlich biegsamen Instrument.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sadko on May 15, 2012, 05:07:15 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 14, 2012, 09:35:03 PM
Am liebsten spielte er auf dem Clavichord. Die sogenannten Flügel, obgleich auch auf ihnen ein gar verschiedener Vortrag statt findet, waren ihm doch zu seelenlos, und die Pianoforte waren bey seinem Leben noch zu sehr in ihrer ersten Entstehung, und noch viel zu plump, als daß sie ihm hätten Genüge thun können. Er hielt daher das Clavichord für das beste Instrument zum Studiren, so wie überhaupt zur musikalischen Privatunterhaltung. Er fand es zum Vortrag seiner feinsten Gedanken am bequemsten, und glaubte nicht, daß auf irgend einem Flügel oder Pianoforte eine solche Mannigfaltigkeit in den Schattirungen des Tons hervor gebracht werden könne, als auf diesem zwar Ton-armen, aber im Kleinen außerordentlich biegsamen Instrument.

My translation:

He liked best to play the clavichord. The so-called "Flügel" [meaning "grand piano" in modern German, must be harpsichord here]  [...] was too soul-less for him, and the pianoforte at his lifetime was not yet developed enough [plump: ~ clumsy] to be sufficient for him. Therefore he considered the clavichord the best instrument for studying (exercising?), as well as for private musical entertainment. He found it most convenient for the presentation of his finest thoughts, and he did not think that on any grand piano or pianoforte such a wide range of shadings of tone (sound) could be produced, as on this instrument, with its small range of volume, but extraordinarily flexible within that range.

EDIT: In a way this is a surprising support for playing Bach on the modern piano: Although much louder it is capable of such flexibility and subtlety. And I also see a support for people who think it is adequate to play historical compositions on modern instruments: The available instruments were not necessarily the ideal ones for the composers.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on May 15, 2012, 07:10:12 AM
Thanks.

The word for soulless is seelenlos, right? And that's a compound of seele, which works just like the religious sense of the English word soul, I think. You're seele flies up to heaven when you're in a state of rapture  etc.

Basically Forkel is saying that according to JSB's sons, JSB didn't think that the harpsichord was a very good instrument for playing music which is spiritual. Or maybe I've misunderstood.

Does seele have a more general sense? In English you can say that something is spouless and mean that it's emotionally cold. I wonder if seelenlos worked like that for Forkel, or whether it's meaning was tied to the spiritual.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on May 15, 2012, 07:21:12 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/jOzWN-PYh9s

This is what a harpsichord with a cold sounds like!

(I know, I know -- it's not an ideal recording! ;D)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 15, 2012, 07:28:07 AM
I think Forkel is not very reliable here. Although I love the clavichord, Forkel's information is second hand, principally received from CPE Bach, who was a nut for the clavichord. Additionally, Forkel publishes his biography in 1802, when the harpsichord (not the clavichord which was always a domestic instrument) had totally been replaced by the fortepiano, so probably he is simply expressing the prejudices of that time.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sadko on May 15, 2012, 07:59:11 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 15, 2012, 07:10:12 AM
Thanks.

The word for soulless is seelenlos, right? And that's a compound of seele, which works just like the religious sense of the English word soul, I think. You're seele flies up to heaven when you're in a state of rapture  etc.

Basically Forkel is saying that according to JSB's sons, JSB didn't think that the harpsichord was a very good instrument for playing music which is spiritual. Or maybe I've misunderstood.

Does seele have a more general sense? In English you can say that something is spouless and mean that it's emotionally cold. I wonder if seelenlos worked like that for Forkel, or whether it's meaning was tied to the spiritual.

I would say "seelenlos" in this context means lacking emotional expression, being sort of "mechanical". (E. g. I find piano rolls totally "seelenlos", I didn't hear one yet that I could enjoy for that reason.). A "seelenloses Objekt" is a non-sentient object. It is normally not used in a religious meaning. So language implies here that animals have souls ... Or rather: the meaning of "Seele" is wider than the religious "technical term".
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on May 15, 2012, 09:39:36 AM
In L'art de toucher le clavecin Couperin writes that the harpsichord is soulless -- without aspirations and suspensions:     "il a paru presque insoutenable jusqu'à présent qu'on put donner de l'âme à  cet instrument . . . "
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Karl Henning on May 15, 2012, 09:44:44 AM
Considering that the entire 19th century lies between us, I should not wonder if Bach and Couperin mean something quite different to us, by the adjective soulless.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on May 15, 2012, 09:49:11 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 15, 2012, 07:21:12 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/jOzWN-PYh9s

This is what a harpsichord with a cold sounds like!

(I know, I know -- it's not an ideal recording! ;D)

In this case I think it is the performer who lacks soul.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on May 15, 2012, 09:49:47 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 15, 2012, 07:28:07 AM
I think Forkel is not very reliable here. Although I love the clavichord, Forkel's information is second hand, principally received from CPE Bach, who was a nut for the clavichord. Additionally, Forkel publishes his biography in 1802, when the harpsichord (not the clavichord which was always a domestic instrument) had totally been replaced by the fortepiano, so probably he is simply expressing the prejudices of that time.

Precisely what Antoine said.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on August 19, 2012, 08:31:32 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 12, 2009, 07:00:10 PM
Piano - Tureck/DG and BBC, Gould/Sony, Crossland/Signum, Gulda/Philips, Fellner/ECM (Bk. 1).

Harpsichord - Wilson/Apex, Leonhardt/EMI, Gilbert/DG, van Asperen/Virgin Classics, Verlet/Naive.
I just dug this quote out as I'm looking for an opinion on Verlet's WTC. Actually, I'm a fan of van Asperen's also.
So do the Verlet and van Asperen sets equal the majesty of Gilbert's and Leonhardt's performances?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 09, 2012, 08:35:10 AM
Quote from: milk on August 19, 2012, 08:31:32 PM
I just dug this quote out as I'm looking for an opinion on Verlet's WTC. Actually, I'm a fan of van Asperen's also.
So do the Verlet and van Asperen sets equal the majesty of Gilbert's and Leonhardt's performances?

I've been exploring harpsichord records of WTC2 on and off for the past few months with one particular thing in mind: I'm intested in variety and profundity  of emotional expression. I must say I thought that Verlet was exceptional in that regard, with the music used to express exhileration, yearning, sorrow, nostalgia and so on.

If anyone knows any harpsichord recordings which they find particularly interesting from the affective pont of view, please let me know. I may have missed some goodies.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on November 09, 2012, 04:27:41 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 09, 2012, 08:35:10 AM
I've been exploring harpsichord records of WTC2 on and off for the past few months with one particular thing in mnd: i'm intested in variety and profundity  of emotional expression. I must say I thought that Verlet was exceptional in that regard, with the music used to express exhileration, yearning, sorrow, nostalgia and so on.

If anyone knows any harpsichord recordings which they find patticularly interesting from the affective pont of view, please let me know. I may have missed some goodies.

I have the WTC by Gilbert, Leonhardt, Kirkpatrick, Jaccottet, van asperen, Verlet, Schornsheim and Watchorn.  All were/are outstanding harpsichordists.  Perhaps Leonhardt is still my favorite.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: xochitl on November 09, 2012, 07:57:08 PM
are there any recordings of WTC that actually use well-temperament?

or any other bach albums that dont use equal-temperament for that matter?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 09, 2012, 10:28:17 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on November 09, 2012, 04:27:41 PM
I have the WTC by Gilbert, Leonhardt, Kirkpatrick, Jaccottet, van asperen, Verlet, Schornsheim and Watchorn.  All were/are outstanding harpsichordists.  Perhaps Leonhardt is still my favorite.

Don't forget that it's just the variety and depth of feelings expressed which is interesting me right now. From that point of view Leonhardt doesn't even come close to Verlet in Bk 2.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Coopmv on November 10, 2012, 05:44:56 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 09, 2012, 10:28:17 PM
Don't forget that it's just the variety and depth of feelings expressed which is interesting me right now. From that point of view Leonhardt doesn't even come close to Verlet in Bk 2.

Leonhardt's playing can be dry at times.  I am a fan of Verlet, the following CD I bought over 20 years ago first introduced me to her virtuosity on the harpsichord.  She was clearly a much younger harpsichordist then, as the recording was made in 73 and 74 in London ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HKdqNu5YL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PaulSC on November 10, 2012, 10:33:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 09, 2012, 10:28:17 PM
Don't forget that it's just the variety and depth of feelings expressed which is interesting me right now. From that point of view Leonhardt doesn't even come close to Verlet in Bk 2.
It's tricky to guess what will read as particularly expressive/emotional for you. I suspect Ottavio Dantone's highly inflected performances may do the trick. Alan Curtis is subtler and more introverted, but you may enjoy him as well.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 10, 2012, 11:26:07 AM
I've been playing Dantone's a bit, mainly because some guy on bachcantatas.org said that if you like Vartolo's Goldbergs (which I do), then you'll like Dantone's WTC. I'm not sure I agree, I need more time.

I didn't know Alan Curtis (who I like) had recorded WTC.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on November 10, 2012, 03:12:07 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 10, 2012, 11:26:07 AM
[...] said that if you like Vartolo's Goldbergs (which I do), then you'll like Dantone's WTC. I'm not sure I agree, I need more time.

Me neither, what an odd statement & comparison. I like Dantone's WTC BTW.. 8)

QuoteI didn't know Alan Curtis (who I like) had recorded WTC.

Not to my knowledge, Glen Wilson might be a nice substitute.  :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PaulSC on November 10, 2012, 05:50:09 PM
Quote from: Que on November 10, 2012, 03:12:07 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 10, 2012, 11:26:07 AM
I didn't know Alan Curtis (who I like) had recorded WTC.
Not to my knowledge, Glen Wilson might be a nice substitute.  :)
Oops, I always mix those two up! Q sorted this one out nicely for me...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 12, 2012, 09:33:24 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on November 10, 2012, 05:50:09 PM
Not to my knowledge, Glen Wilson might be a nice substitute.  :)



Yes, Glen Wilson He really does mine the music for dark feelings. And (surprisingly for me) he finds some of the most tragic music in major key fugues. My only reservation about what he does is that he doesn't seem so comfortable with simple joyful music making, so I tend to feel that the performance is less balanced and varied emotionally compared with Blandine Verlet's. I could well be wrong there though and clearly Glen Wilson's done something with WTC2 which is astonishing and original, and very poetic.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on November 13, 2012, 06:44:30 AM
Quote from: xochitl on November 09, 2012, 07:57:08 PM
are there any recordings of WTC that actually use well-temperament?

or any other bach albums that dont use equal-temperament for that matter?

Egarr uses a system of temperament which he claims is the one Bach had in mind.  He also uses it in the Goldberg Variations.  Fortunately his WTC is much better than his GV. Whether he's correct is obviously a debatable question--but it certainly is not the standard "equal temperament". 

Of course, if you think Bach had one specific system of temperament in mind when he wrote the WTC (I'd suggest he didn't--merely what might be called a category or family of temperament system), first you have to establish what that system was.  Egarr thinks he has.  If you don't agree with Egarr, then the whole question is still very much up in the air.

ETA: and in reference to the topic Mandryka brought up,  I don't think Egarr goes for affect and emotional content very much. At some points he gets poetic, but not very often.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2013, 02:18:42 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on October 26, 2010, 02:47:56 PM
Just wanted to share my story of two complete WTC's from Richard Egarr and Pieter-Jan Belder.

I listened repeatedly to Belder's Bk. 1 for a couple of weeks.  Although not emotionally rich, Belder was very rewarding for the youthful energy he supplied and the different registrations he used in the repeats.  As for his harpsichord, it did sound rather thin but with a nice tangy quality.  Then, I switched to Egarr's Bk. 1 and was amazed at how much more rich and nuanced he played than Belder; I was already aware that Egarr is not one of the more nuanced keyboardists on the block.

Okay, I then started in with Belder's Bk. 2.  What a difference from Bk. 1!  Now Belder is an artist who wants to savor Bach's music.  On top of that, the harpsichord used in Bk. 2 has a much richer sound/more alive.  I really love his Bk. 2.  On to Egarr's Bk. 2 where his nuances only match those in his Bk. 1.  Belder easily surpasses Egarr here.

Overall, I think that Belder had a plan for his interpretations - to go from youthful declarations in Bk. '1 to a mature and highly involved set of performances in Bk. 2, a progression that Egarr does not recognize as he plays both Books in the same manner.

What's your opinion on the differences/similarities between these two sets?

I just wanted to thank you for making thus post. I was interested in the idea that someone would
play Bk 1 very differently from Bk 2, so I got myself a copy of the Belder and I'm enjoying what I'm hearng in fact. It's got me listening to Bk 1 again, I haven't listened to Bk 1 for ages.

In the B minor fugue from Bk 1,  I find myself really moved by Belder, his simplicity, gentle direct eloquence.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 26, 2013, 07:43:29 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 07, 2012, 10:18:50 AM
Now that Schornsheim's WTC has been out for a bit, I'm curious to know what the general consensus on the recording is.
When this first came out I felt totally negative about it. Listening to it tonight, I'm reacting much more positively. She's very direct, if that makes any sense. But she definitely has something to say. I wonder what others think. I don't recall it getting much attention here.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on April 26, 2013, 10:43:02 AM
Quote from: milk on April 26, 2013, 07:43:29 AM
When this first came out I felt totally negative about it. Listening to it tonight, I'm reacting much more positively. She's very direct, if that makes any sense. But she definitely has something to say. I wonder what others think. I don't recall it getting much attention here.

I haven't listened to it more than 10 times, but I've liked it more and more with each additional hearing.  "Direct" does make sense to me, and it's a pleasure to hear the WTC done this way.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Leo K. on April 26, 2013, 12:42:58 PM
I've been listening a bit to Ashkenazy's WTC, and find myself returning to it often. I rather like it more than I thought I would.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on April 26, 2013, 02:25:17 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on April 26, 2013, 12:42:58 PM
I've been listening a bit to Ashkenazy's WTC, and find myself returning to it often. I rather like it more than I thought I would.

I must have listened to Ashkenazy's WTC a few dozen times, always going back and forth as to what I think of it (ranging from OK to Good).  Ultimately, I don't feel he offers enough angst or power when I want those qualities.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Leo K. on April 29, 2013, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Sammy on April 26, 2013, 02:25:17 PM
I must have listened to Ashkenazy's WTC a few dozen times, always going back and forth as to what I think of it (ranging from OK to Good).  Ultimately, I don't feel he offers enough angst or power when I want those qualities.

I think I hear what you mean there, more of a surface play rather than drama. I like Ashkenazy's articulation too. Very pointed and direct in the faster preludes and fugues.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Leo K. on April 29, 2013, 10:04:08 AM
Wow, I've heard Tureck's BBC Legends WTC book II before, but hearing it again I am absolutely bowled over. The power of it!!!

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on June 19, 2013, 03:56:28 AM
Is it known whether Bach envisioned the WTC to be played start to finish in one performance?  My guess is, no he thought of these are teaching pieces not one long work.

But I haven't studied this idea, so I don't know.

Thread duty:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NYP4B79WL.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on June 19, 2013, 05:35:21 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on June 19, 2013, 03:56:28 AM
Is it known whether Bach envisioned the WTC to be played start to finish in one performance?  My guess is, no he thought of these are teaching pieces not one long work.



There's a document by Ernst Ludwig Gerber about his son Heinrich, who was one of Bach's pupils.  In it he says that JS  Bach played  WTC "altogether" three times. At least that's the translation in The New Bach Reader!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on June 19, 2013, 05:46:55 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2013, 05:35:21 AM
There's a document by Ernst Ludwig Gerber about his son Heinrich, who was one of Bach's pupils.  In it he says that JS  Bach played  WTC "altogether" three times. At least that's the translation in The New Bach Reader!
You have seen this video on Moroney's WTC "marathon" back in 2009?

http://www.youtube.com/v/3q-ksemmGbc
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on June 19, 2013, 05:47:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2013, 05:35:21 AM
There's a document by Ernst Ludwig Gerber about his son Heinrich, who was one of Bach's pupils.  In it he says that JS  Bach played  WTC "altogether" three times. At least that's the translation in The New Bach Reader!

Most interesting, thanks. 

:)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on June 19, 2013, 07:40:46 AM
Reposting it here to get more eyes on it.

Quote from: Opus106 on June 14, 2013, 10:23:08 AM
Does anyone know if both books are included in this set? If it's the whole thing, I'd appreciate your thoughts on the recordings, if you have listened to it.

[asin]B0000007JW[/asin]

(no 'official' cover picture available at Amazon)
Davitt Moroney
Well-Tempered Clavier
Harmonia Mundi
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on June 19, 2013, 08:37:10 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on June 19, 2013, 05:47:14 AM
Most interesting, thanks. 

:)

What he says is: "[The Well Tempered Clavier] Bach played altogether three times through for him with unmatchable art, and my father counted these among his happiest hours, when Bach, under the pretext of not feeling in the mood to teach, sat himself at one of his fine instruments, and thus turned these hours into minutes"

I'd never read that before today. Amazing!

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on June 19, 2013, 08:52:40 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2013, 08:37:10 AM
What he says is: "[The Well Tempered Clavier] Bach played altogether three times through for him with unmatchable art, and my father counted these among his happiest hours, when Bach, under the pretext of not feeling in the mood to teach, sat himself at one of his fine instruments, and thus turned these hours into minutes"

I'd never read that before today. Amazing!

Not to quibble, but that is still not evidence if Bach thought of the WTC as one long work suitable for public performance as such.  I've always thought of a keyboard program including one or two P&Fs and a mix of other pieces for variety.  And while recordings are commonly done today of Books I & II or one or the other, complete, I was wondering when that practice came about - or if Bach (other than in the manner you found) indicated his thinking.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on June 19, 2013, 09:06:52 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2013, 08:37:10 AM
What he says is: "[The Well Tempered Clavier] Bach played altogether three times through for him with unmatchable art, and my father counted these among his happiest hours, when Bach, under the pretext of not feeling in the mood to teach, sat himself at one of his fine instruments, and thus turned these hours into minutes"

I'd never read that before today. Amazing!

It's not safe to depend on a translation, but I might point out that "played altogether three times through" does not necessarily imply that JSB played the complete WTC complete in one sitting at three different times.  It might also mean that JSB would play several P&Fs in a row for Heinrich, and over the period of Heinrich's pupilage, he heard each of the 48 played at least three times by JSB.

Perhaps someone has access to the original German, and can check to see if the ambiguity presented by the translation is also present in the original.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on June 19, 2013, 09:23:56 AM
I agree with both the points above.

Is there any  shared musical material, themes transformed, that sort of thing?

I just tried to check whether Busoni played a complete book in a recital, and as far as I can see the answer is no. I wonder if Edwin Fischer or Wanda Landowska  or Walcha did. Fischer's recording was the first complete one.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on June 19, 2013, 09:30:42 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on June 19, 2013, 07:40:46 AM
Reposting it here to get more eyes on it.

This may tell the answer: it is one CD with extracts from Book I:
Descriptions du produit
Book 1 Preludes & Fugues Nos. 1-3, 6-9, 12, 16, 19-22, 24.

http://www.amazon.fr/Clavier-Bien-Temp%C3%A9r%C3%A9-Bach/dp/B0000007JW/ref=sr_1_22?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1371662845&sr=1-22&keywords=bach+moroney
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on June 19, 2013, 09:47:41 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 19, 2013, 09:30:42 AM
This may tell the answer: it is one CD with extracts from Book I:
Descriptions du produit
Book 1 Preludes & Fugues Nos. 1-3, 6-9, 12, 16, 19-22, 24.

http://www.amazon.fr/Clavier-Bien-Temp%C3%A9r%C3%A9-Bach/dp/B0000007JW/ref=sr_1_22?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1371662845&sr=1-22&keywords=bach+moroney

Thank you for that. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on June 19, 2013, 09:49:00 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on June 19, 2013, 09:47:41 AM
Thank you for that. :)

Always at your service. :)

I shall add that Moroney´s WTC IMO is a top choice. Scholary, maybe a bit strict, but it is pure music and immensely rewarding. I have never heard a recording of his which disappointed me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on June 19, 2013, 09:56:16 AM
I think Bach considered the WTC a collection and not a cyclical work meant to be performed at one sitting.

Other collections (evidently authorized by Bach) are the harpsichord partitas, the Leipzig chorales, the six triosonatas for organ, the Brandenburg concertos, the seven concertos for one harpsichord and strings and the six cello suites.

Were they meant to be performed at one sitting?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Opus106 on June 19, 2013, 10:07:27 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 19, 2013, 09:49:00 AM
I shall add that Moroney´s WTC IMO is a top choice. Scholary, maybe a bit strict, but it is pure music and immensely rewarding. I have never heard a recording of his which disappointed me.

That is good to know.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 18, 2013, 09:26:32 AM
http://youtube.com/v/cmf2hoSRtuQ

I think the fugue here, played by Legacé, is wonderful, revelatory because it's so intense and energetic and because of the way it builds up power. The prelude is maybe less interesting.

My question is, is there enough in Lagacé's set to make it worth buying? It's in four CDs, sold seperately by download - maybe some are better than others. It's quite expensive so I'm reluctant to take a punt, even though I very much appreciate this fugue.

As far as I can see there's nothing else from his WTC on youtube.

Why is it that so many performances play this fugue slowly?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 18, 2013, 01:52:54 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 18, 2013, 09:26:32 AM
http://youtube.com/v/cmf2hoSRtuQ

I think the fugue here, played by Legacé, is wonderful, revelatory because it's so intense and energetic and because of the way it builds up power. The prelude is maybe less interesting.

My question is, is there enough in Lagacé's set to make it worth buying? It's in four CDs, sold seperately by download - maybe some are better than others. It's quite expensive so I'm reluctant to take a punt, even though I very much appreciate this fugue.

As far as I can see there's nothing else from his WTC on youtube.

Why is it that so many performances play this fugue slowly?

That's sort of a loaded question.  Does Legace play it fast?  There are a few recorded performances I know of in the 6 minute range; Legace takes about 7 minutes.  Personally, I prefer a tempo for this very bleak music of about 8 minutes (such as Watchorn's).  Legace's performance just bounces off of me; same with his Prelude.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 19, 2013, 07:49:02 AM
Lots of people play the 869 fugue bleakly, like you see it,  but not everyone does. (This reminds me of a discussion we once had about Nikolayeva and Mustonen in Shostakovich, though I wouldn't want to say now what I said then. There are lots of ways to play a piece of music.)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: North Star on September 19, 2013, 10:22:09 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 19, 2013, 10:13:00 AM
Out of the 170(almost) recordings in WTC's 85 years old history, the choices for the musically sane should simply be among:
Harpsichord: Gilbert, Moroney, Jaccottet, Leonhardt
Piano: Hewitt, Schiff, Richter
Clavichord: Kirkpatrick
Organ: Lagace
Call me insane but I like Bob van Asperen's recording (that Sviatoslav Richter on RCA is excellent, though), Annie.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Karl Henning on September 19, 2013, 10:48:32 AM
Survey said: Not Insane

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/09/75/b1ed79edd7a04c24694b7110.L._SY300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 19, 2013, 11:14:33 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 19, 2013, 10:13:00 AM
Out of the 170(almost) recordings in WTC's 85 years old history, the choices for the musically sane should simply be among:
Harpsichord: Gilbert, Moroney, Jaccottet, Leonhardt
Piano: Hewitt, Schiff, Richter
Clavichord: Kirkpatrick
Organ: Lagace

So that's one recommendation for  Legacé. Is it all good, as good in Bk 1 as in Bk 2? I listened to Louis Thiry play the B minor fugue from book 1 today but I didn't like it at all. (But I preferred him in the prelude to Legacé)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 19, 2013, 02:18:28 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 19, 2013, 10:13:00 AM
Out of the 170(almost) recordings in WTC's 85 years old history, the choices for the musically sane should simply be among:
Harpsichord: Gilbert, Moroney, Jaccottet, Leonhardt
Piano: Hewitt, Schiff, Richter
Clavichord: Kirkpatrick
Organ: Lagace

Not a bad list at all. However, it's much too slim.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 19, 2013, 03:08:13 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 19, 2013, 10:22:09 AM
Call me insane but I like Bob van Asperen's recording (that Sviatoslav Richter on RCA is excellent, though), Annie.

I'll second van Asperen's set and also add recordings from Wilson, Dantone, Belder, Fellner, Crossland, Fischer, Gould, Gulda, Verlet, Schepkin, Vieru, Watchorn, Schornsheim, Sheppard, Tureck, Woodward, Aldwell, Koroliov, Parmentier, Feinberg, Ross, Sellergren and Crochet.  I'd also include all from Annie's list except for Legace and Hewitt.

Bach's WTC and Goldberg Variations are my favorite works.  I like a wide selection to satisfy my hunger for this music.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 19, 2013, 03:33:22 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 19, 2013, 03:21:36 PM
If you add Gould for WTC(too long for idiosyncratic playing) you can add the other 150+ recordings you have left out as well...as I said I recommend any of those for the musically sane without exception...

I already added my favored versions.  Sorry that you don't seem to care for the Gould recordings.  Any thing in those notes of yours as to why Gould does not appeal to you besides the generalized "idiosyncratic" theme?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 19, 2013, 06:23:09 PM
Robert Levin mixes it up with harpsichord, organ, clavichord, and even fortepiano in book II.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 19, 2013, 09:32:04 PM
Quote from: Sammy on September 19, 2013, 03:08:13 PM
I'll second van Asperen's set and also add recordings from Wilson, Dantone, Belder, Fellner, Crossland, Fischer, Gould, Gulda, Verlet, Schepkin, Vieru, Watchorn, Schornsheim, Sheppard, Tureck, Woodward, Aldwell, Koroliov, Parmentier, Feinberg, Ross, Sellergren and Crochet.  I'd also include all from Annie's list except for Legace and Hewitt.


Can you say why these recordings appeal to you?

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 19, 2013, 09:38:48 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 19, 2013, 10:13:00 AM
Out of the 170(almost) recordings in WTC's 85 years old history, the choices for the musically sane should simply be among:
Harpsichord: Gilbert, Moroney, Jaccottet, Leonhardt
Piano: Hewitt, Schiff, Richter
Clavichord: Kirkpatrick
Organ: Lagace

Have you heard Verlet?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Wakefield on September 19, 2013, 10:22:04 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 19, 2013, 09:32:04 PM
Can you say why these recordings appeal to you?

This link could be useful:

http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/articles/bachjs/keyboard/wtc/wtc1-01.php
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on September 20, 2013, 01:03:54 AM
Quote from: Sammy on September 19, 2013, 03:08:13 PM
I'll second van Asperen's set and also add recordings from Wilson, Dantone, Belder, Fellner, Crossland, Fischer, Gould, Gulda, Verlet, Schepkin, Vieru, Watchorn, Schornsheim, Sheppard, Tureck, Woodward, Aldwell, Koroliov, Parmentier, Feinberg, Ross, Sellergren and Crochet.  I'd also include all from Annie's list except for Legace and Hewitt.

Bach's WTC and Goldberg Variations are my favorite works.  I like a wide selection to satisfy my hunger for this music.

Don't know if they are mentioned in order of your preference but on harpsichord it is Wilson and Dantone for me, with Belder in the shopping cart. 8)

(For the record: on the piano I have Gould and Fischer)

I remember listening to Van Asperen once (the recording from his EMI/Virgin years, right?), but I do not recall being blown away. Definitely check it out once more. :) Though his early years were not his best IMO.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: North Star on September 20, 2013, 01:11:33 AM
Quote from: Que on September 20, 2013, 01:03:54 AMI remember listening to Van Asperen once (the recording from his EMI/Virgin years, right?), but I do not recall being blown away. Definitely check it out once more. :) Though his early years were not his best IMO.

Q

That's the one.
[asin]B00002ZZ55[/asin]
[asin]B008BT105G[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Beale on September 20, 2013, 04:59:31 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 19, 2013, 10:13:00 AM
Piano: Hewitt, Schiff, Richter

Which Hewitt, 1999 or 2008?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 20, 2013, 07:05:34 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 02:08:17 AM
Yes, I find it graciously unconventional...why do you ask?



I'm interested in these ideas like "unconventional" - how they came about in Bach performance. That's why I was struck by Don's  comment about the fugue being bleak.

I asked because I like it more at the moment than Asperen and Leonhardt.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 20, 2013, 07:37:37 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 02:11:11 AM
That link praises Tureck's WTC recording which renders the other "opinions" useless. Very poorly written and biased

Part of what that article  seems to be about is to do with showing lots of different emotions in the music. I'm sympathetic to that objective in fact, it's one of the reasons I like Verlet in Bk 2, so I found the article quite interesting (I haven't read all of it yet.) I wasn't aware of it till Gordon  posted the link.

When you say other "opinions" what do you mean? Other perspectives on what's important in playing WTC? Or just other people's reviews? What do you think it's biased towards?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 20, 2013, 10:22:20 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 08:28:09 AM
In your "emotions in the music" context, would you deny that emotions "arising from performances of Bach's WTC" and "performance of music based on Bach's WTC" are two different things? People tend to take simple things out of context here. Mechanical playing, a "tidy" performance, are objective in their context. You can't say you can't perform a composition mechanically, or you can't say classical music can not be performed emotionally messed... it's the same as saying I don't like rubato and trying to listen to Chopin. There is particular freedom in Bach but you have to play his choral works neatly. You can't(shouldn't) perform Beethoven tidily but you can't harm it's rhythm,etc.etc. Otherwise you are not enjoying the composer's composition, you are enjoying what's played. I'm not saying that I'm against any of those. All I'm saying is there are minimum obligations for performing most of the great composers works, then the performance should weigh in, i.e. I like many piano sonata recordings of Beethoven just for the pianist's quirky playing knowing that it has nothing to do with Beethoven's norms. But I'd never compare it to a Gilels Beethoven performance...to put it simply, I have a cadenza in front of me right now, I won't dare to say whose, for a Mozart's piano concerto...it requires the notes E7 and A#1 to be played... >:D

The opinions in that particular "review". Memorization of popular opinions instead of analyzing what's and how it is played..

I don't understand the difference between a performance of music based on JSB's WTC and a performance of JSB's WTC, though (as you suggest) I think that playing (relative?) pitches as indicated on some text is at the heart of it. Beyond relative pitches, I dunno.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 11:02:12 AM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 19, 2013, 10:22:04 PM
This link could be useful:

http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/articles/bachjs/keyboard/wtc/wtc1-01.php

It's hard to believe that I wrote that stuff over 10 years ago.  It was a lot of fun doing the write-ups and reaching various conclusions, but the major "kick" was just listening to hundreds of hours of fantastic keyboard music in a relatively short period of time.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 11:05:52 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 02:11:11 AM
That link praises Tureck's WTC recording which renders the other "opinions" useless.

I'm happy to report that many Bach keyboard enthusiasts hear the excellence of versions from Tureck and Gould.  At the same time, there are plenty of folks who don't care for either of them.

It's a very big pond with plenty of room for different species.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 20, 2013, 11:08:38 AM
Well, I found the reviews to be very useful and enjoyable to read. I still go back to them from time to time. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 11:31:23 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 11:11:10 AM
Oh my! Is that you???   :blank: :(. Do you plan revisiting it?

Yes, it's me.  No plans to revisit or rewrite - I got totally burned out on the whole process a few years ago.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 11:35:31 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 11:22:20 AM
Yes of course it's a "review" from your view and I understand what you say. I'm not criticizing your view. And this : (Person A likes X. I don't like X. Therefore, I probably won't agree with A's tastes)? is not what it is. Taste is something else. There are certain ways to certain composers. Tureck's not it. If someone is praising Tureck's WTC, either he/she has no idea of Bach or he/she is just liking the performance of a piano piece which I'm sure she is a great player.

I can definitely be rigid at times, but you're close to the top of the list; I reserve top spot for folks like Hurwitz and Vroon.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 20, 2013, 11:53:33 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 11:22:20 AM
Yes of course it's a "review" from your view and I understand what you say. I'm not criticizing your view. And this : (Person A likes X. I don't like X. Therefore, I probably won't agree with A's tastes)? is not what it is. Taste is something else. There are certain ways to certain composers. Tureck's not it. If someone is praising Tureck's WTC, either he/she has no idea of Bach or he/she is just liking the performance of a piano piece which I'm sure she is a great player.

I was trying to give Mandryka simple Mozart example. I hope you'd understand what I mean this time. If you listen to his BPO account of Prague, you will see that he as usual goes with full force, articulation, phrasing like he takes any other romantic symphony. He is a great conductor, the orchestra plays like gods, it's a great recording, it is NOT Mozart's 38...if I read a review praising Karajan's 38 among other 38s that review is not valid...not only for me but people who are after the 38

edit: I really hope I haven't attacked anybody's Mozart by Karajan love  :(
So, what you are saying is...that what you are saying is not an opinion but is the way things are and that those who disagree with you simply have not understood the way things are. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2013, 11:58:47 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 11:49:40 AM
Here, I'm actually asking how would you, all, judge a cadenza composed by a well-known pianist for one of Mozart's piano concertos demanding a 7 octave piano while Mozart's era fortepianos were 5 octave?

One purpose of the cadenza is to show off the pianists skill and ability to improvise. Since a player today has the use of the modern piano, I see nothing wrong with a pianist making full use of his instrument. I'm sure Mozart would approve. I know you like Mozart played by orchestras with instruments Mozart would not recognize (Böhm/Berlin for example). So why do you object to a modern cadenza?

Sarge
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2013, 12:00:53 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 11:37:55 AM
I'm not rigid at all...

:D ;D :D  ...good one, Annie.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 12:08:13 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 11:36:05 AM
Then could you, please, just listen to Nikolayeva and tell me how "romantic" would you characterize it?

That would take a few hours and there are quite a few WTC versions I would rather listen to than Nikolayeva's.  However, I do remember finding her interpretations a little more romantic than most.  My basic problem with her performances was that she sounded speed-challenged to me in the faster pieces.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 12:12:14 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 11:49:40 AM
Here, I'm actually asking how would you, all, judge a cadenza composed by a well-known pianist for one of Mozart's piano concertos demanding a 7 octave piano while Mozart's era fortepianos were 5 octave?

I'd listen to it a few times and reach a conclusion.  I would not automatically dismiss it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2013, 12:18:36 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 12:02:12 PM
Oh, not you. I'm just asking in the light of the discussion here if it's Mozart or not.

What is Mozart (or Bach)? Apparently it's music you've self-defined in a way that eliminates most performances and performers (even performers who spent their entire lives in service to the music, like Turek and Gould). If that isn't the very definition of rigid...

Sarge
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on September 20, 2013, 12:40:02 PM
Mozart is not a What,  he's a Who; and since the only person who knows whether Mozart would have approved of that cadenza is Mozart,  that means, short of  a resurrection machine or a TARDIS,  we can only make not very well informed guesses.


I did note yesterday the irony by which a person who posts their location as "Loony Bin"  spoke about "musically sane"
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 12:40:21 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2013, 12:18:36 PM
What is Mozart (or Bach)?

Those are hard questions to answer; also difficult are questions as to whether Mozart or Bach would enjoy a particular performance of their music.  Would Bach give a thumbs up to Tureck's recordings of his music?  Any yes or no answer is pure speculation.  That's why I indicated that Annie's thoughts on the subject were on the rigid side.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Wakefield on September 20, 2013, 12:43:02 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 11:11:10 AM
Oh my! Is that you???   :blank: :(.

I guess you know that "Sarge" is really David Hurwitz and "Jenny" the respected critic Jens F. Laurson.  :P
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 12:48:30 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 12:31:22 PM
Of course. Even I, being rigid and all :), have the recording and the score. I listen to it from time to time. What I'm asking is would you qualify that recording a Mozart?

Yes, as long as the cadenza fit in well with Mozart's musical personality as I see it.

Just recently, I was listening to a Mozart cadenza that must have been written by a true "romantic"; I could hardly tolerate the romantic drama/angst because it was so beyond Mozart's musical personality.

Obviously, I don't feel that way about Tureck's Bach.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Wakefield on September 20, 2013, 12:51:47 PM
Quote from: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 11:31:23 AM
Yes, it's me.  No plans to revisit or rewrite - I got totally burned out on the whole process a few years ago.

It's a shame because you're one of the most reliable Bach critics that I have found on the web. Over the years I have particularly enjoyed your comparative reviews, especially when they are a sort of transcription of your listening notes, more than a traditional review.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on September 20, 2013, 12:55:51 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 12:47:48 PM
I'm not asking if Mozart would have approved or if he'd enjoy it, that's Sarge who muddied the water. Simple, is a 7 octave cadenza Mozart or not?   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

No, it's not.  A 7 octave cadenza is a 7 octave cadenza.  Mozart was a person, not a piece of music.  The only question  is whether that cadenza fits musically into the concerto for which it was written, and the answer for that can vary from auditor to auditor.  And since I don't even know which pianist you're referring to,  I'm not able to say whether it does or does not fit musically into the concerto for which it was written.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 01:02:37 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 12:47:48 PM
I'm not asking if Mozart would have approved or if he'd enjoy it, that's Sarge who muddied the water. Simple, is a 7 octave cadenza Mozart or not?   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Once again, you're going the "simple" route.  I think you're insisting on some kind of mechanical purity here that holds no interest for me.

What does interest me most these days is the matter of Bach's repeats.  How about you?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 01:11:07 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 20, 2013, 12:51:47 PM
It's a shame because you're one of the most reliable Bach critics that I have found on the web. Over the years I have particularly enjoyed your comparative reviews, especially when they are a sort of transcription of your listening notes, more than a traditional review.

Well, I did very much enjoy doing those reviews and wanted them to be in a conversational style rather than the traditional manner.  But quite a few years ago I made a bad decision to join the MusicWeb review gang; I allowed that experience to alter my writing style and personality.  As a result, the entire process started to be work instead of enjoyment.  Then, a couple of years later, I noticed a tendency to just look at the empty computer screen and not have anything to say.  As of today, I doubt I'll ever get into it again.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 01:17:56 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 01:09:31 PM
What do you mean?

Well, take the Goldberg Variations with the customary AABB sequence.  Bach does not indicate how these repeats are to be played.  Some performances play them pretty "straight"; others vary the tempo, apply trills or other added ornamentation, change dynamics, insert staggering of musical lines, etc.  There are those whose response is to not play them at all.

Anyways, I find it a fascinating  topic since in a work such as the Goldbergs, it's half the musical time.  So again, how about you?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on September 20, 2013, 01:22:06 PM
Quote from: AnnieHere, I'm actually asking how would you, all, judge a cadenza composed by a well-known pianist for one of Mozart's piano concertos demanding a 7 octave piano while Mozart's era fortepianos were 5 octave?

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2013, 11:58:47 AM
One purpose of the cadenza is to show off the pianists skill and ability to improvise. Since a player today has the use of the modern piano, I see nothing wrong with a pianist making full use of his instrument. I'm sure Mozart would approve. I know you like Mozart played by orchestras with instruments Mozart would not recognize (Böhm/Berlin for example). So why do you object to a modern cadenza?

Sarge

While I wouldn't automatically dismiss the hypothetical cadenza making use of 7 octaves,  I would see it as somewhat problematic.  The struggle against limitations of a genre is typical of art, and the same applies to classical music.  What's the best music that can be composed for two hands on a keyboard, a quartet of string instruments, a solo cello, an orchestra  comprised of a standard set of instruments? 

My problem with the 7 octave cadenza is that it puts Wolfie at a disadvantage.  He has written 25 minutes of music under the constraint of a 5 octave keyboard, then all of a sudden the soloist uses all 88 keys of the modern piano in his or her cadenza.  You've given the soloist a bigger bag of tricks than Wolfie had.  I wouldn't say it's not Mozart, but it's not fair!  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on September 20, 2013, 01:27:12 PM
Quote from: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 01:02:37 PMWhat does interest me most these days is the matter of Bach's repeats.  How about you?

That's a pet peeve of mine.  I hate when repeats are skipped, but I also find it a waste when a repeat is played identically the second time.  The performers should take advantage of the repeat by giving another view of the music, either varying the ornaments used, or by making different interpretive choices the second time around.  Schiff is an example of a musician who knows how to take advantage of repeats.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 01:30:48 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 12:58:07 PM
You know that you shouldn't be exposed to romanticism while listening to Mozart's PCs.

You make it sound like an evil virus.  I can well handle a certain degree of romanticism in Mozart's piano concertos, but I have my limits just like others have their own limits.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 20, 2013, 01:31:35 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 12:02:12 PM
I'm just asking in the light of the discussion here if it's Mozart or not.

The idea of something's "being Mozart" is too poorly defined to be applied in cases like this. If someone says that the number of octaves in the cadenza is essential to being Mozart, and someone disagrees, there's just no way to decide between the competing views.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 01:33:41 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 01:25:52 PM
I don't know in which context do you ask, but I became aware of that by Gould's 30+ recording. My references for those are Hantai and Perahia. Both are through with the repeats, 77 and 73mins respectively. I don't prefer it very colorful. I was hesistant about repeats' effect on liveliness but Perahia makes it live. If you elaborate maybe I could add more

I have no idea what you mean by "colorful" or "liveliness".  Probably best that you and I do not discuss repeats.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 01:37:19 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 20, 2013, 01:27:12 PM
That's a pet peeve of mine.  I hate when repeats are skipped, but I also find it a waste when a repeat is played identically the second time.  The performers should take advantage of the repeat by giving another view of the music, either varying the ornaments used, or by making different interpretive choices the second time around.  Schiff is an example of a musician who knows how to take advantage of repeats.

That I can understand.  I also prefer the repeats being observed, but a great performance without repeats remains a great performance.  As for playing a repeat in an identical manner, I agree that some deviation can certainly enrich the listening experience.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 20, 2013, 01:37:49 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 12:58:07 PM
This is almost what I meant. That romanticism is not Mozart and your toleration is the "taste". Somebody else may really like it. That shouldn't qualify it as a good Mozart ** piano concerto recording even if the performance is great.


I think Schnabel's modernist cadenza for k491 really fits well with his vision of the concerto, because it's so dark and nervous and edgy. Yet clearly it's not using musical ideas which were part of Mozart's world.

You have to spell it all out like this. Catch all espressions like "Mozartian" are useless, meaningless.


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on September 20, 2013, 01:38:09 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 01:35:45 PM
Actually it's pretty defined.

My opinion = fact.

That's a convenient way of arriving at definitions.  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 20, 2013, 01:43:22 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 20, 2013, 01:27:12 PM
That's a pet peeve of mine.  I hate when repeats are skipped

Is that a Bach thing or do you feel the same elsewhere - in Schubert, for example?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on September 20, 2013, 01:45:05 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 20, 2013, 01:43:22 PM
Is that a Bach thing or do you feel the same elsewhere - in Schubert, for example?

I generally prefer repeats to be observed. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 20, 2013, 01:45:38 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 01:35:45 PM
Actually it's pretty defined. Maybe not in the forums :). It's not a matter of view or opinion but I won't open another can of worms  :-X

Open the can - just a reference will do.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 02:10:55 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 01:37:41 PM
Maybe you should come back when you clarify which aspect you want to discuss on your mind first

Let's start with this - What do you mean by a colorful repeat?

By the way, I thought my reply #1081 was pretty clear as to my specific interest.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 02:15:39 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 20, 2013, 01:43:22 PM
Is that a Bach thing or do you feel the same elsewhere - in Schubert, for example?

I'm not Scarpia, but I would like to address the question.  When I love the music, I want the repeat.  When I don't, it's fine with me to skip it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on September 20, 2013, 02:33:30 PM
If you don't love the music, don't listen to it at all.  This is in the 'Recordings' forum after all.  Life's too short.  Just hit the 'Stop' button and move on.   ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 02:50:45 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 20, 2013, 02:33:30 PM
If you don't love the music, don't listen to it at all.  This is in the 'Recordings' forum after all.  Life's too short.  Just hit the 'Stop' button and move on.   ;)

That's good advice, but it can take many listenings before I decide that "love" is not in bloom.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on September 20, 2013, 03:47:48 PM
Quote from: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 02:50:45 PM
That's good advice, but it can take many listenings before I decide that "love" is not in bloom.

Quite so.  Three evenings ago I listened to Medtner's Op 27 (Ballade-Sonata) and felt it was uninspired.  One evening ago I listened to it again and it "bloomed."
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Pat B on September 20, 2013, 04:04:01 PM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 12:47:48 PM
Simple, is a 7 octave cadenza Mozart or not?
Of course not, but "not Mozart" hardly invalidates it. Lots of cadenzas are not by the composer of the concerto -- as I'm sure you know. And to me, it makes little sense allow the whole thing to be played on an iron-frame grand that sounds very different than any instrument of Mozart's time while demanding ideological purity in the cadenza. The cadenza is the most obvious place to diverge from the composer's sound.

The more interesting question is: does it work musically? We can't say without hearing it, and different people will surely have different answers.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 20, 2013, 10:29:09 PM
Quote from: Sammy on September 20, 2013, 02:15:39 PM
I'm not Scarpia, but I would like to address the question.  When I love the music, I want the repeat.  When I don't, it's fine with me to skip it.

Just an anecdote. I used to not much like the big Schubert G major quartet until I heard the Melos Quartet play it on DHM - they play the repeats in the first movement and they play it very well. And when I heard them it was like wow, suddenly the huge flowing nobility  of the music became clear. Same for their quintet recording with Rostropovich.

I should say that I listened to that Leonhardt's recording of the Bach Partitas a few weeks ago, the one with no repeats. I missed the repeats.

I too want to encourage you to post more of your impressions, especially tough hard organ music performances.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 20, 2013, 11:18:40 PM
Quote from: Pat B on September 20, 2013, 04:04:01 PM
...different people will surely have different answers.
It seems to me that every so often someone comes on the forum and says the opposite: Something like, "there is only my answer and those that disagree are ignorant or shallow."   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on September 21, 2013, 01:02:43 AM
Quote from: Que on September 20, 2013, 01:03:54 AM
Don't know if they are mentioned in order of your preference but on harpsichord it is Wilson and Dantone for me, with Belder in the shopping cart. 8)

(For the record: on the piano I have Gould and Fischer)

I remember listening to Van Asperen once (the recording from his EMI/Virgin years, right?), but I do not recall being blown away. Definitely check it out once more. :) Though his early years were not his best IMO.
Quote from: North Star on September 20, 2013, 01:11:33 AM
That's the one.


[asin]B00002ZZ55[/asin]
[asin]B008BT105G[/asin]

Revisited Van Asperen yesterday, and it all came back to me. And it seems my previous impression years ago hasn't changed much. Though I can appreciate this recording by Van Asperen more on a technical level, the drawbacks I found are still the same: mechanical, rather "cold" playing with insufficient rhythmic variation. Things are not helped by a recording that makes the harpsichord sound very brittle (early digital?). I personally like his playing in his later Teldec and Aeolus years much, much better. :)

In a way I cannot blame Van Asperen at all: this recording was a stage in the development of harpsichord playing in Bach, taking the pioneering by his teacher Leonhardt a step further: more objectified, "true" to the score in an accurate, swift tempo. No frills, no "Romantic" touches. Things have moves on since then but this was a natural step on the way to where we are now.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on September 21, 2013, 07:41:17 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 11:22:20 AMI was trying to give Mandryka simple Mozart example. I hope you'd understand what I mean this time. If you listen to his BPO account of Prague, you will see that he as usual goes with full force, articulation, phrasing like he takes any other romantic symphony. He is a great conductor, the orchestra plays like gods, it's a great recording, it is NOT Mozart's 38...if I read a review praising Karajan's 38 among other 38s that review is not valid...not only for me but people who are after the 38

edit: I really hope I haven't attacked anybody's Mozart by Karajan love  :(

I'm glad that you made this remark.  I had recently listened to Hogwood's recording of KV504 (my favorite recording is Harnoncourt, RCO) and pulled Karajan's DG recording with Berlin (which I last listene to ten years ago, at least).  To say that Karajan's performance is "not Mozart" is simply absurd. 

As I see it, Karajan's focus was performance of the music for an audience in his concert hall; the recording is a document of that performance.  He uses the full orchestra out of necessity.  The small PI ensembles that sound so vibrant in recordings would sound pale and weak in a large, modern concert hall.  Within the constraints of the performance conditions, I would say Karajan enters the spirit of Mozart as well as any of them.  The large ensemble gives the music a different sound and Karajan uses his full bag of tricks in manipulating the timbre of the ensemble to suit what he considers to be the mood of the music.  Some things are lost and others are gained.  The winds are less dominant, but there is a marvelous weight to the string playing in the climaxes.  Some aspects of the music loose their emphasis, but other aspects gain emphasis.  In the slow movement, in particular, I heard poignant harmonies that had completely escaped me in Hogwood's "authentic" reading.  Mozart's music is deep enough to retain it's strong identity, even when there is wide latitude in performance practice. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dirge on September 21, 2013, 02:55:15 PM
Peter Hill [Delphian] offers a beautifully played account (on piano) of a decidedly thoughtful and well-balanced interpretation of WTC II, one that is crafty and imaginative within a tasteful and conservative overall context. While "spontaneity" and "hell-bent for leather" certainly aren't terms that spring to mind while listening, Hill does play with a sneaky degree of resilient flexibility and impart a nice sense of flow to the proceedings -- enough so that the performance never quite sounds overthunk or conspicuously deliberate.  Phrasing is deftly pointed and articulate with very little pedaling, yet lyrical lines have a graceful profile and a fluid feel. Dynamics and dynamic contrasts are moderate throughout, and balances are relatively evenhanded, with coexisting voices sounding almost detached from one another while at the same time being perfectly choreographed and coordinated; this results in excellent clarity and transparency, with inner voices and relationships coming through clearly without undue analytical highlighting. If inner dialog sounds more rehearsed than spontaneous, with less sense of give and take than ideal, that's about my only notable reservation.

Hill's playing doesn't immediately grab you by the collar and pull you in to reveal itself all at once; it pulls you in and reveals itself in proportion to how closely and intently you listen to it -- in other words, you get out of it what you put into it.  As such, the performance/recording is as likely to bore the casual listener as it is to engross the dedicated listener. The recorded sound is very good, and Hill provides concise notes that are more to the point and helpful than most. Hill has also recorded WTC I for Delphian, and that set was released early this year; I haven't heard it aside from some on-line audio clips, but I'm sure to buy it sooner or later.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 22, 2013, 09:23:12 AM
Quote from: Que on September 21, 2013, 01:02:43 AM
In a way I cannot blame Van Asperen at all: this recording was a stage in the development of harpsichord playing in Bach, taking the pioneering by his teacher Leonhardt a step further: more objectified, "true" to the score in an accurate, swift tempo. No frills, no "Romantic" touches. Things have moves on since then but this was a natural step on the way to where we are now.

I see what you mean. In a way I think van Asperen rather takes Leonhardt´s pioneering steps a little backwards torwards the preauthentic age. Still he tends to seduce me by the mere energy of his playing. But his interpretation certainly can not stand alone.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Kontrapunctus on September 26, 2013, 05:27:15 PM
I'm thoroughly enjoying this new set of Book I (I certainly hope Book II isn't far behind!):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BtJm4Mk4L._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on September 26, 2013, 07:21:47 PM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on September 26, 2013, 05:27:15 PM
I'm thoroughly enjoying this new set of Book I (I certainly hope Book II isn't far behind!):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BtJm4Mk4L._SL1200_.jpg)

I listened to all the samples on JPC and was very impressed - should sound even better in SACD.  There's no screwing around from Gunther; it's all straight from the heart.  I love the flow and momentum he gives the music, his articulation is just right and the lower voices ring out proudly.  I was disappointed with the Fugue in A major BWV 864 - too polite for my taste, but you can't get everything you want from one version.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: jochanaan on September 30, 2013, 03:23:18 PM
Quote from: Pat B on September 20, 2013, 04:04:01 PM
Of course not, but "not Mozart" hardly invalidates it. Lots of cadenzas are not by the composer of the concerto -- as I'm sure you know...
If we were to play the Mozart (and all other Baroque and Classical-period) concertos with total historical accuracy, we'd expect the soloist to improvise the cadenza on the spot! ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Verena on October 02, 2013, 01:50:08 AM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on September 26, 2013, 05:27:15 PM
I'm thoroughly enjoying this new set of Book I (I certainly hope Book II isn't far behind!):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BtJm4Mk4L._SL1200_.jpg)

My first impression is that it in places the interpretation almost sounds like a modern version (in the sense of SOTA sound) of Edwin Fischer's recording  - I have been waiting for such a version for a long time. But I have to listen again. Fischer is still my favorite recording, though.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: stingo on February 06, 2014, 03:06:52 PM
Did Hantai ever record Book 2?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2014, 09:11:36 PM
Quote from: stingo on February 06, 2014, 03:06:52 PM
Did Hantai ever record Book 2?

He recorded BWV 880 and 892 on his CD of concertos with Le Concert Français. It's a pair of hantaïesque performances which I very much like.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Ken B on February 13, 2014, 04:51:08 PM
Best I can recall, Walcha in stereo on harpsichord, Archiv. Unavailable. His EMI is too harsh.
Worst, Roberts on piano, Nimbus.
Hewitt is best on piano.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Leo K. on February 24, 2014, 01:57:19 PM
I was not prepared to be so wowed by the Samual Feinberg WTC set. I've never heard any WTC like this. So many interesting twists and turns of tempo and melodic-structure. It soars, it's so mecurial and grand. WOW. His playing seems to enter another realm, tenuous and celestial.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/130/MI0001130124.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 04, 2014, 06:38:57 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 24, 2014, 01:57:19 PM
I was not prepared to be so wowed by the Samual Feinberg WTC set. I've never heard any WTC like this. So many interesting twists and turns of tempo and melodic-structure. It soars, it's so mecurial and grand. WOW. His playing seems to enter another realm, tenuous and celestial.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/130/MI0001130124.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I'm really temped, after reading the MusicWeb review and listening to a sample, by the new Pristine release. It's confusing though because they have worked over the recording in a different way. I'm not sure which is the best option. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on September 04, 2014, 07:32:49 AM
Quote from: milk on September 04, 2014, 06:38:57 AM
I'm really temped, after reading the MusicWeb review and listening to a sample, by the new Pristine release. It's confusing though because they have worked over the recording in a different way. I'm not sure which is the best option.

I've yet to hear a Pristine release that didn't sound overly processed.

I adore the Feinberg WTC and this is the best transfer I have found:

(http://pixhst.com/avaxhome/34/66/000f6634_medium.jpeg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 04, 2014, 07:14:49 PM
Quote from: George on September 04, 2014, 07:32:49 AM
I've yet to hear a Pristine release that didn't sound overly processed.

I adore the Feinberg WTC and this is the best transfer I have found:

(http://pixhst.com/avaxhome/34/66/000f6634_medium.jpeg)
Thanks for the input!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 05, 2014, 02:46:30 PM
Quote from: George on September 04, 2014, 07:32:49 AM
I've yet to hear a Pristine release that didn't sound overly processed.

I adore the Feinberg WTC and this is the best transfer I have found:

(http://pixhst.com/avaxhome/34/66/000f6634_medium.jpeg)
He is brisk, isn't he.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on September 05, 2014, 03:12:20 PM
Quote from: milk on September 05, 2014, 02:46:30 PM
He is brisk, isn't he.

All I notice is the beauty.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 05, 2014, 08:47:33 PM
Quote from: milk on September 05, 2014, 02:46:30 PM
He is brisk, isn't he.

Correct. But the really special thing is the dynamics. He uses dynamic changes to make the music sort of move in waves of loud and soft. It's the dynamic changes which help give his performances a sort of living breathing feeling. I don't think you could do it on a Silberman piano.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 06, 2014, 03:04:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 05, 2014, 08:47:33 PM
Correct. But the really special thing is the dynamics. He uses dynamic changes to make the music sort of move in waves of loud and soft. It's the dynamic changes which help give his performances a sort of living breathing feeling. I don't think you could do it on a Silberman piano.
I want to say he reminds me a little of the Demus performances of WTC I saw last year. But it's a vague perception. I felt with Demus that he was really searching out new structures within the music. Feinberg has those surprising moments too. I wonder if the tempo adds to this effect. Someone once commented on GMG that they like the sense that a performance could almost fall apart (I think it was a discussion of organ Bach). I get that in Feinberg sometimes. It's really thrilling in the quick tempo fugues. And in the 874 and 886 preludes I'm enjoying just how colorful and exciting Feinberg is. Yes, loud/soft and his accents...it's almost as if he leaves out a note sometimes - for effect - or that a note will just barely be there. I'm trying to do a little comparison with piano. Turek seems so more baroque somehow (lack of pedal?) - sometimes she's very tightly wound and measured but sometimes she's full of arresting sensitivity and pathos. Why is she like polar opposites? I wouldn't call her thrilling. Crossland just seems sparse to me. I'm not hearing as much dynamic change. Or maybe it's rubato? I don't know. She does less of something I think. Woodward really appeals to me but I'm not sure why. I certainly get a sense of the counterpoint in Woodward. Part of it is the recording: he's got big booming wet bass (this is like porn-writing). But really, Woodward's performance really affects me. But I'm not sure technically what it is in Woodward I'm responding to.     
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mookalafalas on November 29, 2014, 07:01:36 AM
Quote from: Ken B on February 13, 2014, 04:51:08 PM
Best I can recall, Walcha in stereo on harpsichord, Archiv.

  I just worked my way through this thread.  I had a great time, and played a bunch of book 1s as I read. I had a few, and used torrent to grab some others that came up and sounded exciting. I don't have any new insights, but as the thread has been neglected lately, I'll throw in my 2 cents and see if we can get some flow going again.
     I enjoyed most of what I played, and definitely need to spend more time with quite a few.  Not too long ago I didn't see how I could ever get enthusiastic about the harpsichord (rather than the piano), and now feel close to the opposite. 
   One that really set me back on my heels is the Walcha.  I was expecting something early and formal sounding, but it was fresh, lively, vigorous, and often surprising.  I like the Egarr, Leonhardt, and Van Asperen, and got quite excited about the Wilson and Belder. I'm not that sure about the Van Asperen, but I have some of his other Bach (an OOP harpsichord concertos set on Virgin, among other things) that I love, and these perhaps prejudice me in his favor. 
   On piano I'm crazy about Gulda, who hardly got a mention in the thread, and very little love.  In general I love Schiff's Bach, but for some reason his WTC doesn't do anything for me at all.  Maybe because he's not Gulda.   I will listen to more of the Tureck soon.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Moonfish on March 10, 2015, 11:05:21 PM
I have pretty much always been a Tureck fan!  :)  Regardless, I just came across samples by Evelyne Crochet. What do you guys think about her WTC?

Review on MusicWeb (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Oct06/bach_crotchet_1180.htm)

[asin] B000EPFCNG[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oLzPNwP3L.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/v/sFY9mj6m548
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Moonfish on March 10, 2015, 11:22:44 PM
Crochet - Bach's WTC - Book II

https://www.youtube.com/v/ju6xpqqVZU4
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 11, 2015, 07:51:56 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 10, 2015, 11:05:21 PM
I have pretty much always been a Tureck fan!  :)  Regardless, I just came across samples by Evelyne Crochet. What do you guys think about her WTC?

Review on MusicWeb (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Oct06/bach_crotchet_1180.htm)


Peter - that review is by Don Satz, i.e. 'Sammy' (a.k.a. 'Bulldog') on the forum - maybe he'll 'chime in' - I have about seven versions of these works, 3 each on piano or harpsichord, and one on the clavichord.  My piano versions are Jill Crossland, Roger Woodward, & Ivo Janssen, which don't match any of Don's comparison recordings.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on March 11, 2015, 08:23:00 AM
What do you guys think of Crossland?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 11, 2015, 08:31:29 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 11, 2015, 08:23:00 AM
What do you guys think of Crossland?

Just put in 'Crossland' in the search box of this thread - I got 67 post hits, so already plenty of discussion on her here - Dave :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Moonfish on March 11, 2015, 12:11:29 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 11, 2015, 07:51:56 AM
Peter - that review is my Don Satz, i.e. 'Sammy' (a.k.a. 'Bulldog') on the forum - maybe he'll 'chime in' - I have about seven versions of these works, 3 each on piano or harpsichord, and one on the clavichord.  My piano versions, i.e. Jill Crossland, Roger Woodward, & Ivo Janssen don't match any of his comparison recordings.  Dave :)
Thanks Dave!
I generally gravitate towards the "class" renditions (both harpsichord and piano), but always keep my ears perked for other performances. Crochet's version on YouTube sounds very appealing in my ears....
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 11, 2015, 01:00:59 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 11, 2015, 12:11:29 PM
Thanks Dave!
I generally gravitate towards the "class" renditions (both harpsichord and piano), but always keep my ears perked for other performances. Crochet's version on YouTube sounds very appealing in my ears....

Don's reviews have helped me over the years buy some great performancess; my tastes seem to blend nicely w/ his comments - also an excellent review from Fanfare, reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=127934) - SO, I went ahead and ordered the 4-CD set on the Amazon MP - just $23 + S/H - $6/disc seemed like a good deal to me.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on March 11, 2015, 06:39:53 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 11, 2015, 08:23:00 AM
What do you guys think of Crossland?

I think Jill Crossland's WTC is wonderful - subtle changes in tempo, dynamics and texture that keeps the music fresh and engaging throughout.  I'm not thrilled with her Goldbergs disc however.

Woodward's another big winner.  A very serious guy, just hits the heart of my comfort zone.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on March 12, 2015, 10:06:12 PM
Quote from: Sammy on March 11, 2015, 06:39:53 PM
I think Jill Crossland's WTC is wonderful - subtle changes in tempo, dynamics and texture that keeps the music fresh and engaging throughout.  I'm not thrilled with her Goldbergs disc however.

Woodward's another big winner.  A very serious guy, just hits the heart of my comfort zone.

I'll try to get hold of a copy of Crossley's. Tell me Don, did you ever review Tilney's BK2?  I saw some stuff by you about Book 1, but not book 2.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2015, 10:40:35 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/ygWuAlhxATc

This is from Ruzickova's first recording of WTC, made in 1971. It's pretty good I think, I didn't know about this early recording until recently, there's quite a lot of it on youtube but as far as I can see no other transfers.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bluto32 on August 30, 2015, 01:21:06 AM
I'm gradually getting into Bach (on the piano), and am planning to get one or two more recordings of the Well-Tempered Clavier. Having tried a few samples online, I think Roger Woodward's WTC might be on my shortlist.

[asin]B002PO4JFQ[/asin]

A couple of reviews on Amazon UK and US sadly mentioned some problems with the packaging. Book 2 apparently comes on 3 CDs tightly packed with a booklet in only a single-thickness jewel case, with the result that the spindles were broken and CDs scratched. Has anyone here had similar issues with the packaging?

Bluto
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bluto32 on September 05, 2015, 02:22:07 PM
I have another WTC question, this time regarding Richter's 1970 and 72-73 recordings of Books 1 and 2.
Has anyone compared any of these transfers? If so, do they differ noticeably in sound quality?

1) Commonly found RCA 4-disc set first released in 1992:
[asin]B000026OHN[/asin]

2) Remastered (I think) by Sony in 2009:
[asin]B002K8BJS2[/asin][asin]B002K8BJSC[/asin]

3) Recent release by Alto in 2014:
[asin]B00MI3TSHS[/asin]

4) Olympia release:
[asin]B0058TJM1Q[/asin][asin]B004FLW37S[/asin]

Also, any views on the Woodward packaging welcome (see previous post).

Many thanks,
Bluto
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on September 05, 2015, 03:03:26 PM
Quote from: bluto32 on August 30, 2015, 01:21:06 AM
I'm gradually getting into Bach (on the piano), and am planning to get one or two more recordings of the Well-Tempered Clavier. Having tried a few samples online, I think Roger Woodward's WTC might be on my shortlist.

[asin]B002PO4JFQ[/asin]

A couple of reviews on Amazon UK and US sadly mentioned some problems with the packaging. Book 2 apparently comes on 3 CDs tightly packed with a booklet in only a single-thickness jewel case, with the result that the spindles were broken and CDs scratched. Has anyone here had similar issues with the packaging?

Bluto

I ended up returning mine to Amazon for a refund.  At least one CD was completely unplayable.  And listening to the CDs that were playable, I felt the performance was not that great, so I did not ask for an exchange, just a refund
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 06, 2015, 03:06:13 AM
Opinions appreciated on Egarr's Book 2, which I'm starting to explore.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sadko on September 06, 2015, 06:10:29 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 05, 2015, 03:03:26 PM
I ended up returning mine to Amazon for a refund.  At least one CD was completely unplayable.  And listening to the CDs that were playable, I felt the performance was not that great, so I did not ask for an exchange, just a refund

[Woodward WTC]

Technically mine was ok, but I also don't share the enthusiasm of many and got rid of it. If I remember correctly I found the interpretation a bit "artificial", deliberate, somehow against my feelings, irritating.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 06, 2015, 07:25:13 AM
Quote from: bluto32 on August 30, 2015, 01:21:06 AM
I'm gradually getting into Bach (on the piano), and am planning to get one or two more recordings of the Well-Tempered Clavier. Having tried a few samples online, I think Roger Woodward's WTC might be on my shortlist.

[asin]B002PO4JFQ[/asin]

A couple of reviews on Amazon UK and US sadly mentioned some problems with the packaging. Book 2 apparently comes on 3 CDs tightly packed with a booklet in only a single-thickness jewel case, with the result that the spindles were broken and CDs scratched. Has anyone here had similar issues with the packaging?

Bluto

The review here says that the packaging is absolutely wonderful, in fact I'm tempted to buy the CDs  just for the packaging.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Mar10/Bach_Woodward_199225.htm

As far as performance goes, I have a download, and I think it has some intersting ideas in it. I do not like the timbre he makes, at first I thought it was the spotify stream, so I got some lossless files. But the spotify stream is good. This is a personal thing of course, it should be easy for you to check for yourself.

My feeling is that he's very often more like someone whispering, a whispered siren song,  than someone making big gestures.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 08, 2015, 06:04:03 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 06, 2015, 07:25:13 AM
The review here says that the packaging is absolutely wonderful, in fact I'm tempted to buy the CDs  just for the packaging.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Mar10/Bach_Woodward_199225.htm

As far as performance goes, I have a download, and I think it has some intersting ideas in it. I do not like the timbre he makes, at first I thought it was the spotify stream, so I got some lossless files. But the spotify stream is good. This is a personal thing of course, it should be easy for you to check for yourself.

Concerning the Woodward performance, I enjoy the recordings and agree w/ the review linked above - my 5-disc set came in a sturdy cardboard box containing 2 single-sized jewel boxes; WTC I is in one jewel container while the other contains 3 discs - the 3rd disc is attached to the inside of the back w/ the insert having a hole in the middle; all discs played well.

Back in March on this thread, Don (a.k.a. Sammy) left his thoughts quoted immediately below.  Also, I was reviewing the comments on Amazon and came across one by David Cates (2nd quote below) - the name piqued my interest because I own Bach's French Suites on harpsichord done by a performer of the same name, so found his website and sent an email; well, much to my surprise they were the same and he sent me a quick response (last quote below) - I guess that Cates' perspective has a keyboardist's validity.  Just thought all here might be interested - Dave :)

QuoteI think Jill Crossland's WTC is wonderful - subtle changes in tempo, dynamics and texture that keeps the music fresh and engaging throughout.  I'm not thrilled with her Goldbergs disc however.

Woodward's another big winner.  A very serious guy, just hits the heart of my comfort zone.

QuoteSublime WTC - 5 STAR RATING

By David Cates on January 31, 2010

Format: Audio CD Verified Purchase
This is a lovely piano performance of the great Well-Tempered Clavier. The best one I recall hearing. Roger Woodward avoids eccentricities - he renders this beautifully, with no attempt to mimic a harpsichord. He uses the tonal palette of the piano, never affected, but full of depth and emotion. The interplay of all the voices, with various parts emerging and receding, is sensitively done. The piano tone is gentle in general, but incisive when needed. Best of all, he really makes everything sing. Every piece is characterized individually; there is a wonderful variety of tone colours and articulation. Most recordings of this cycle have a sameness of interpretation that dulls the mind after a while, but not here. And to top it all off, the set comes with mini-scores as well as very nice reproductions of the facsimile manuscript. A must-have performance.

QuoteHi Dave,

Sorry, I haven't listened to them for a while now, so I don't remember much.  Maybe I'll give them another listen.

There will always be complainers, for good or bad performances. Sometimes that comes from deeply held beliefs about 'proper' style; some people think interpretive expression in baroque music is wrong, others find conservative performances dull. Can't never please everybody.

Best - David
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 08, 2015, 07:50:10 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 08, 2015, 06:04:03 AM
Concerning the Woodward performance, I enjoy the recordings and agree w/ the review linked above - my 5-disc set came in a sturdy cardboard box containing 2 single-sized jewel boxes; WTC I is in one jewel container while the other contains 3 discs - the 3rd disc is attached to the inside of the back w/ the insert having a hole in the middle; all discs played well.

Back in March on this thread, Don (a.k.a. Sammy) left his thoughts quoted immediately below.  Also, I was reviewing the comments on Amazon and came across one by David Cates (2nd quote below) - the name piqued my interest because I own Bach's French Suites on harpsichord done by a performer of the same name, so found his website and sent an email; well, much to my surprise they were the same and he sent me a quick response (last quote below) - I guess that Cates' perspective has a keyboardist's validity.  Just thought all here might be interested - Dave :)

I appreciate that what I'm about to do is totally inappropriate and you may choose to ignore it, but given that you own the release, could you summarise in not more than 300 words the contents of Woodward's essay "In search of a performance practice" ?

Please.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 08, 2015, 01:31:05 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 08, 2015, 07:50:10 AM
I appreciate that what I'm about to do is totally inappropriate and you may choose to ignore it, but given that you own the release, could you summarise in not more than 300 words the contents of Woodward's essay "In search of a performance practice" ?

Please.

Hopefully that is a 'tongue in cheek' request?  :laugh:  I came to it, saw it, but did not conquer!  Gave up, sorry - I'm just not good @ all reading those 'artistic' essays - Dave :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bluto32 on September 09, 2015, 03:12:22 PM
Thank you all for your views on the Woodward recording - much appreciated.

Regarding Richter, I have since found a thread on another forum saying that the 2009 Sony transfer is better than the 1992 RCA release i.e. (2) is better than (1) in my previous post. I can't find any information of the quality of the Alto (3) or Olympia (4) transfers, however. Are these labels any good normally?

Bluto
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on September 09, 2015, 03:17:03 PM
Quote from: bluto32 on September 09, 2015, 03:12:22 PM
Thank you all for your views on the Woodward recording - much appreciated.

Regarding Richter, I have since found a thread on another forum saying that the 2009 Sony transfer is better than the 1992 RCA release i.e. (2) is better than (1) in my previous post. I can't find any information of the quality of the Alto (3) or Olympia (4) transfers, however. Are these labels any good normally?

Bluto

Alto I have only seen as a reissue of stuff that was earlier on Olympia. I would assume the same mastering, as the Regis reissues of Olympia releases that I have heard feature the same mastering.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bluto32 on September 15, 2015, 11:48:30 AM
The back of the Alto CD case says:

(1) "Previously issued on Olympia"
and
(2) "mastered for Alto by Peter Arden-Taylor".

Hmmm... The first suggests a reissue; the second suggests a remastering.
If anyone has more one of the 4 versions in my post above, which one would you recommend?

I'm leaning towards the Sony 2009 remasterings at present just going on an Amazon review.

Bluto
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: terje on September 15, 2015, 12:23:40 PM
Quote from: bluto32 on September 15, 2015, 11:48:30 AM
I'm leaning towards the Sony 2009 remasterings at present just going on an Amazon review.

There's also a review of the Sony SACD set which might be worth looking at

http://www.amazon.com/BACH-WELL-TEMPERED-CLAVIER-hybrid-remaster/dp/B0085DWC7S/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1442348430&sr=1-1&keywords=richter+bach+sacd

Does the '69 set on Melodiya interest you?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bluto32 on September 18, 2015, 11:55:38 AM
According to that review of the Richter SACD, it doesn't sound too good  :(

Thanks for mentioning the alternative 1969 recording by Richter. I've since looked into it, but given various comments about audience noise I think I'd be better off with the better known studio version above.

Bluto
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Sammy on October 15, 2015, 05:50:13 PM
Quote from: bluto32 on August 30, 2015, 01:21:06 AM
I'm gradually getting into Bach (on the piano), and am planning to get one or two more recordings of the Well-Tempered Clavier. Having tried a few samples online, I think Roger Woodward's WTC might be on my shortlist.

[asin]B002PO4JFQ[/asin]

A couple of reviews on Amazon UK and US sadly mentioned some problems with the packaging. Book 2 apparently comes on 3 CDs tightly packed with a booklet in only a single-thickness jewel case, with the result that the spindles were broken and CDs scratched. Has anyone here had similar issues with the packaging?

Bluto

Yes, that packing is very tight.  My spindles were not broken; they just were not tall enough to really hold the discs.  It's funky, but I haven't noticed any damage to the discs.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on October 15, 2015, 10:47:05 PM
CDs are tougher than most CD cases and will "survive" quite a bit, unless you have bad luck.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 19, 2016, 10:35:14 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f6/75/09/f675096442ae25aac7353e02ab1fe6aa.jpg)

The first half of the recording of WTC2 above makes me think of Elliott Carter's 4th String Quartet.

Kenneth Weiss goes further than anyone else I can recall in creating tension by making the voices independent. The result can feel like a bunch of people talking in a room without listening to each other.

But to leave it at that would be to paint half the picture, because Weiss's music making is, surprisingly, emotionally rich. This is because Weiss's articulation and his rubato are particularly eloquent. 

Fundamentally it's as if Weiss gives us a Bach who is Samuel Beckett avant l'heure. In Happy Days and Krapp's Last Tape, those isolated, lost and lonely individuals experience tenderness, love and joy and hope, despite everything. And similarly in Weiss's performances the WTC 2 voices sing a very humane song, and occasionally make fleeting and precarious contact. 

Weiss's vision makes Bach sound strange, and I think that's a good thing. This is early music after all. Weiss seems to me an uncompromising poet with a great sensitivity for the baroque - he never lets his ideas become tempered by classical or romantic perceptions of beauty, harmony and consonance.

I believe that Weiss has an holistic conception of this music. That's to say, as the music moves from one prelude and fugue to another,  the relation between the voices becomes less antagonistic, the warmth and humanity of the expression augments. Like with Winterreise we progress. Like Bunyan's pilgrim, we are redeemed. We evolve from pain to love.

It's live, I was at the concert. The experience of multiple listenings to the recording has helped me get clearer about what Weiss is up to.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 21, 2016, 09:01:17 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41GaOG%2B1kwL._SS500.jpg)

What struck me today listening to Glenn Gould's Bk 2 is how cold most of the music making is, and yet suddenly and unexpectedly, now and then, he comes up with a prelude or fugue which is clearly deeply felt and eloquently expressed. It's as if he can't quite sustain his default sewing machine mode all the time. A friend of mine described it as "repressed emotion" and called it a tragedy, and maybe that's right. Like Gould was scared of what the music made him feel, wanted to hide it with virtuosity and velocity, but sometimes, as in a Freudian complex, the sentiment surfaces. I have no better way of explaining the incoherence of styles in the recording.

Another thing that struck me is that the attractive "naughty boy" image of Glenn Gould's music making has to a great extent evaporated with time because of the flowering of HIP. It's maybe paradoxical that the performers who have been informed by authentic musical practice should prove to be the most diverse and the most imaginative about how to present Bach's music, but it's true. Glenn Gould seems no more bold and imaginative than Wilson, Egarr, Asperen, Koopman or Weiss - on the contrary. It's only in the context of people who perform on modern piano that Gould seems iconoclastic or insolent, but that's just a reflection of how poor piano players have been in baroque music.

His great weaknesses remain for me the stiff pulse of nearly all his music making, and his strange detached touch. His sense of swing has always been appreciated and does to some extent mitigate the motoric rhythms. But his aversion to expressive rubato is a fault, I'm sure of it. Nothing mitigates the touch and you just have to put up with it.

In short this WTC 2 is really a train wreck. It's a credit to Gould's PR department that anyone still bothers with it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 21, 2016, 09:48:51 AM
Thanks for this post, Mandryka, food for afterthought. Never before have I seen Gould's style so well described.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Wakefield on November 21, 2016, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 21, 2016, 09:48:51 AM
Thanks for this post, Mandryka, food for afterthought. Never before have I seen Gould's style so well described.

Well, I totally disagree. This is not a description, but an opinion.

Its pretext is Gould's WTC, but I suspect it's really just a particularization of the reviewer's general opinion about Gould's artistry (or pseudo-artistry, if we share Madryka's opinion).

A derogatory, pretentious and condescending opinion (poor Gould's fans! deceived by his PR department, which still works more than 3 decades after his death).

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on November 21, 2016, 12:31:58 PM
Quote from: Gordo on November 21, 2016, 12:27:41 PM
Well, I totally disagree. This is not a description, but an opinion.

Its pretext is Gould's WTC, but I suspect it's really just a particularization of the reviewer's general opinion about Gould's artistry (or pseudo-artistry, if we share Madryka's opinion).

A derogatory, pretentious and condescending opinion (poor Gould's fans! deceived by his RP department, which still works more than 3 decades after his death).

+1

I recently listened to Gould's WTC and enjoyed it quite a bit.  Stupid me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 21, 2016, 01:12:01 PM
Quote from: Gordo on November 21, 2016, 12:27:41 PM
Well, I totally disagree. This is not a description, but an opinion.

Its pretext is Gould's WTC, but I suspect it's really just a particularization of the reviewer's general opinion about Gould's artistry (or pseudo-artistry, if we share Madryka's opinion).

Gould was certainly a technically very gifted pianist, but when we talk about his Bach recordings (most of which I have listened to attentively several times), I always found his stiff, mechanical and monotonic playing misguided. The music needs a much more differntiated articulation and agogic rubato.

So please tell me what special Bach'ian features Gould's interpretations in your opinion contains.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on November 21, 2016, 05:31:18 PM
I think of Gould's approach as a necessary corrective.  And stiff or not, monotonic or not, I find the result coherent and pleasing in my ears.

Have any of you ever heard Ashkenazy's recording of the Partitas-- which if anything errs too much in the opposite direction. I like it, but in the same way as I like Karajan's Mozart symphonies, which are so wrong they are right.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mookalafalas on November 21, 2016, 05:45:56 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 21, 2016, 01:12:01 PM
Gould was certainly a technically very gifted pianist, but when we talk about his Bach recordings (most of which I have listened to attentively several times), I always found his stiff, mechanical and monotonic playing misguided. The music needs a much more differntiated articulation and agogic rubato.

So please tell me what special Bach'ian features Gould's interpretations in your opinion contains.

"Needs"?  You seem to be proving Gordo's point about mistaking opinion for fact.  You think it is much better played a different way, which is valid (and I generally agree), but it's still just an opinion.   
   I could say greco-roman statuary is cold and lifeless and "needs" to be painted to give it warmth.  it's certainly true in a way, but it is beautiful in its cold austerity as well, which is equally true of Gould's playing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 21, 2016, 08:41:26 PM
Quote from: Gordo on November 21, 2016, 12:27:41 PM
Well, I totally disagree. This is not a description, but an opinion.

Its pretext is Gould's WTC, but I suspect it's really just a particularization of the reviewer's general opinion about Gould's artistry (or pseudo-artistry, if we share Madryka's opinion).

A derogatory, pretentious and condescending opinion (poor Gould's fans! deceived by his PR department, which still works more than 3 decades after his death).



You may underestimate the importance of Public Relations in the music market.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 21, 2016, 08:42:07 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 21, 2016, 12:31:58 PM
+1

I recently listened to Gould's WTC and enjoyed it quite a bit.  Stupid me.

What did you enjoy about Bk 2?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 21, 2016, 10:11:13 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 19, 2016, 10:35:14 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f6/75/09/f675096442ae25aac7353e02ab1fe6aa.jpg)

The first half of the recording of WTC2 above makes me think of Elliott Carter's 4th String Quartet.

Kenneth Weiss goes further than anyone else I can recall in creating tension by making the voices independent. The result can feel like a bunch of people talking in a room without listening to each other.

But to leave it at that would be to paint half the picture, because Weiss's music making is, surprisingly, emotionally rich. This is because Weiss's articulation and his rubato are particularly eloquent. 

Fundamentally it's as if Weiss gives us a Bach who is Samuel Beckett avant l'heure. In Happy Days and Krapp's Last Tape, those isolated, lost and lonely individuals experience tenderness, love and joy and hope, despite everything. And similarly in Weiss's performances the WTC 2 voices sing a very humane song, and occasionally make fleeting and precarious contact. 

Weiss's vision makes Bach sound strange, and I think that's a good thing. This is early music after all. Weiss seems to me an uncompromising poet with a great sensitivity for the baroque - he never lets his ideas become tempered by classical or romantic perceptions of beauty, harmony and consonance.

I believe that Weiss has an holistic conception of this music. That's to say, as the music moves from one prelude and fugue to another,  the relation between the voices becomes less antagonistic, the warmth and humanity of the expression augments. Like with Winterreise we progress. Like Bunyan's pilgrim, we are redeemed. We evolve from pain to love.

It's live, I was at the concert. The experience of multiple listenings to the recording has helped me get clearer about what Weiss is up to.

Very interesting review, thanks. I cannot find on Amazon--will look elsewhere later. Where can one buy it?

For the WTC on harpsichord I only have Walcha and Kirkpatrick (bk II. is on clavichord I believe) and I enjoy both a great deal. However, I am looking for more recent recordings (new to my ear at least). This may fit the bill.

Have you heard his recordings of the Goldbergs and Partitas?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 21, 2016, 10:31:10 PM
Yes I've heard the Goldbergs and Partitas, I'm not quite ready to comment except to say that I think that his more recent work is particularly interesting.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: North Star on November 22, 2016, 12:43:17 AM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 21, 2016, 10:11:13 PM
Very interesting review, thanks. I cannot find on Amazon--will look elsewhere later. Where can one buy it?

[asin]B00J4ZQL0U[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Wakefield on November 22, 2016, 02:37:20 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 21, 2016, 01:12:01 PM
Gould was certainly a technically very gifted pianist, but when we talk about his Bach recordings (most of which I have listened to attentively several times), I always found his stiff, mechanical and monotonic playing misguided. The music needs a much more differntiated articulation and agogic rubato.

So please tell me what special Bach'ian features Gould's interpretations in your opinion contains.

After a 60-year discussion on Gould's style, I guess everyone has his own opinion, and I'm very skeptic about any possibility of consensus, or even real dialogue about him. Gould was an eccentric in every imaginable meaning: technically, personally, professionally, as a performing artist, at the recording studio and so on.

I could say I love his total (even bodily) involvement with Bach music, his evident interpretative solipsism, his suggestion of a sort of perpetuum mobile in this music, the staccatos (in flagrant contradiction with the previous feature), but nothing will be enough to begin a real dialogue because everyone (at least here, on this board) has his own and unchangeable opinion about the guy.

BTW, I hate his Beethoven.  :)   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Wakefield on November 22, 2016, 02:40:22 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on November 21, 2016, 05:45:56 PM
"Needs"?  You seem to be proving Gordo's point about mistaking opinion for fact.  You think it is much better played a different way, which is valid (and I generally agree), but it's still just an opinion.   
   I could say greco-roman statuary is cold and lifeless and "needs" to be painted to give it warmth.  it's certainly true in a way, but it is beautiful in its cold austerity as well, which is equally true of Gould's playing.

An insightful example, sir.  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 22, 2016, 02:43:10 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 21, 2016, 05:31:18 PM
I think of Gould's approach as a necessary corrective.  And stiff or not, monotonic or not, I find the result coherent and pleasing in my ears.

Quote from: Mookalafalas on November 21, 2016, 05:45:56 PM
"Needs"?  You seem to be proving Gordo's point about mistaking opinion for fact.  You think it is much better played a different way, which is valid (and I generally agree), but it's still just an opinion.   

Of course Gould's way of playing was a reaction to romanticism, but it is a very radical reaction, and to day we have got further in the shape of a more balanced and informed view. From treatises by baroque authors and from many of Bach's scores it is possible to get some idea of their performance practice, particularly the articulation. But also about thing like expressing different affects, and Gould - with his sewing machine approach - does not seem to take such things into consideration.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: James on November 22, 2016, 03:03:28 AM
Quote from: Gordo on November 22, 2016, 02:37:20 AMI could say I love his total (even bodily) involvement with Bach music <<snip>>

Total involvement & engagement with that music indeed. He revolutionized Bach playing despite what anyone here dreams up.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 22, 2016, 03:50:04 AM
Quote from: Gordo on November 22, 2016, 02:37:20 AM
After a 60-year discussion on Gould's style, I guess everyone has his own opinion, and I'm very skeptic about any possibility of consensus, or even real dialogue about him. Gould was an eccentric in every imaginable meaning: technically, personally, professionally, as a performing artist, at the recording studio and so on.

I could say I love his total (even bodily) involvement with Bach music, his evident interpretative solipsism, his suggestion of a sort of perpetuum mobile in this music, the staccatos (in flagrant contradiction with the previous feature), but nothing will be enough to begin a real dialogue because everyone (at least here, on this board) has his own and unchangeable opinion about the guy.

BTW, I hate his Beethoven.  :)

For me the point of departure is an idea about how Bach's music may have sounded in his time, an idea which is based upon many years of preoccupation with his music, including reading litterature and scores. And I think that the elements in Gould's music-making you mention are rather un-Bachian (perpetuum mobile, persistent staccato). Maybe my attitude is too venerational, but I always found it difficult to subscribe to the wheeling and dealing some people think they freely can impose upon the music, probably in an attempt to make the music less museum-like - as if that was necessary. Gould may be interesting as a person, but his music making (Bach and yes, much of his Beethoven) is less involving.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on November 22, 2016, 04:28:32 AM
I remember noticing how he brought out the contrapuntal lines in a manner which enlightened my enjoyment of the music.  The description that has been used of "sewing machine" style is not one I would use, nor recognize in Gould's playing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on November 22, 2016, 05:56:17 AM
Nor I  :(
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 22, 2016, 06:45:05 AM
Quote from: James on November 22, 2016, 03:03:28 AM
He revolutionized Bach playing despite what anyone here dreams up.

Can you explain that a bit? How did he revolutionise Bach playing? What was the revolution about? Who followed in his footsteps?


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 22, 2016, 06:49:48 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 22, 2016, 04:28:32 AM
  The description that has been used of "sewing machine" style is not one I would use, nor recognize in Gould's playing.

Many of the pieces in WTC 2 are fast and mechanical.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on November 22, 2016, 06:51:58 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 22, 2016, 06:49:48 AM
Many of the pieces in WTC 2 are fast and mechanical.

Are you accusing Bach of writing fast and mechanical music?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 22, 2016, 06:57:54 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 22, 2016, 06:51:58 AM
Are you accusing Bach of writing fast and mechanical music?

Belle esquive.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on November 22, 2016, 07:07:39 AM
For what it is worth, I really enjoy Gould's Bach, except his WTC.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on November 22, 2016, 07:44:55 AM
Quote from: James on November 22, 2016, 03:03:28 AM
[...] He revolutionized Bach playing despite what anyone here dreams up.

Despite what one thinks of Gould's Bach playing, I think it's because he's still one of a kind explains his popularity until today.
But I truly doubt he caused a revolution.
There are no followers.
Gould is unique.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 22, 2016, 10:15:33 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 22, 2016, 07:44:55 AM
Gould is unique.

But not everything he touched turned into gold, only into Gould.

:P  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 22, 2016, 04:50:24 PM
The author Nassim Taleb wrote: For pleasure, read one chapter by Nabokov. For punishment, two. A similar phrase would sum up my attitude toward Gould after over a quarter century of listening--For pleasure, listen to ten minutes of Gould. For punishment, twenty.

I greatly respect Gould--both the man and musician. I usually (not always) enjoy his interpretations of Bach's music, if not the way it translates into actual sound. I enjoy his videos, ideas, and eccentricities. I am even somewhat sympathetic to his views about recorded vs. live music (put your pitchforks down, people), as well as his fascination with northern latitudes.

However, when it comes down to it, I find his actual sound to be difficult to listen to. I am not even sure whether Premont and I are referring to the same thing here, but I think his tone is often harsh, articulation overly staccato, and his choice of instrument a bit too much on the bright side for my tastes.

In my early days as a classical music lover (late 80s, early 90s) I was very excited about Gould's recordings. But then my piano teacher expressed her lack of enthusiasm about his tone (she is a fanatic for Solomon, Myra Hess, Curzon, et al.--and not a baroque specialist), if not his musicianship. As my tastes--both as an amateur pianist and a collector of recordings--advanced, I started to really appreciate people like Richter and Feinberg on piano, (to say nothing of Walcha and Kirkpatrick on harpsichord). These days, when I want to hear WTC on piano, I usually reach for Richter or Feinberg--both idiosyncratic in their own ways, and surely not HIP-approved. (I was enamoured with Fischer for many years, but for better or worse, that wore off.) But, I don't let that bother me; they were both enormously talented musicians with a great feeling for the music, and both had a much richer and more beautiful tone than Gould. Apples to oranges? Yes, probably, but my preferences nonetheless.

Nevertheless, Gould DOES show more than a flash or two of sheer genius in the WTC, especially in Bk I (really haven't listened to much of his Bk. II). In agreement with one poster above, he really does have a great talent for bringing out the various voices in some of those preludes and fugues. In any case, my favorite Bach recordings of Gould are the Partitas, found on a 1960s Columbia 2 LP set (and, I'm sure on CD as well).

One can probably never have too many recordings of the WTC (or anything by Bach), so I am really looking forward to listening to the Schiff set (EMC) I just received, and am also looking at the harpsichord set Mandryka suggested above.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 22, 2016, 04:58:39 PM
Quote from: North Star on November 22, 2016, 12:43:17 AM
[asin]B00J4ZQL0U[/asin]

Thanks! The CDs didn't come up in my search, but all the separate MP3s did.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: zamyrabyrd on November 22, 2016, 10:02:54 PM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 22, 2016, 04:50:24 PM
However, when it comes down to it, I find his actual sound to be difficult to listen to. I am not even sure whether Premont and I are referring to the same thing here, but I think his tone is often harsh, articulation overly staccato, and his choice of instrument a bit too much on the bright side for my tastes.
In my early days as a classical music lover (late 80s, early 90s) I was very excited about Gould's recordings. But then my piano teacher expressed her lack of enthusiasm about his tone (she is a fanatic for Solomon, Myra Hess, Curzon, et al.--and not a baroque specialist), if not his musicianship... In agreement with one poster above, he really does have a great talent for bringing out the various voices in some of those preludes and fugues.

Gould's articulation predicated on what may be perceived as a rather dry tone is exactly what I admire in his playing of Baroque music. Myra Hess, Solomon, et al, can save a warm tone for Schumann and other Romantics.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 22, 2016, 10:10:25 PM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 22, 2016, 04:50:24 PM
The author Nassim Taleb wrote: For pleasure, read one chapter by Nabokov. For punishment, two. A similar phrase would sum up my attitude toward Gould after over a quarter century of listening--For pleasure, listen to ten minutes of Gould. For punishment, twenty.

I greatly respect Gould--both the man and musician. I usually (not always) enjoy his interpretations of Bach's music, if not the way it translates into actual sound. I enjoy his videos, ideas, and eccentricities. I am even somewhat sympathetic to his views about recorded vs. live music (put your pitchforks down, people), as well as his fascination with northern latitudes.

However, when it comes down to it, I find his actual sound to be difficult to listen to. I am not even sure whether Premont and I are referring to the same thing here, but I think his tone is often harsh, articulation overly staccato, and his choice of instrument a bit too much on the bright side for my tastes.

In my early days as a classical music lover (late 80s, early 90s) I was very excited about Gould's recordings. But then my piano teacher expressed her lack of enthusiasm about his tone (she is a fanatic for Solomon, Myra Hess, Curzon, et al.--and not a baroque specialist), if not his musicianship. As my tastes--both as an amateur pianist and a collector of recordings--advanced, I started to really appreciate people like Richter and Feinberg on piano, (to say nothing of Walcha and Kirkpatrick on harpsichord). These days, when I want to hear WTC on piano, I usually reach for Richter or Feinberg--both idiosyncratic in their own ways, and surely not HIP-approved. (I was enamoured with Fischer for many years, but for better or worse, that wore off.) But, I don't let that bother me; they were both enormously talented musicians with a great feeling for the music, and both had a much richer and more beautiful tone than Gould. Apples to oranges? Yes, probably, but my preferences nonetheless.

Nevertheless, Gould DOES show more than a flash or two of sheer genius in the WTC, especially in Bk I (really haven't listened to much of his Bk. II). In agreement with one poster above, he really does have a great talent for bringing out the various voices in some of those preludes and fugues. In any case, my favorite Bach recordings of Gould are the Partitas, found on a 1960s Columbia 2 LP set (and, I'm sure on CD as well).

One can probably never have too many recordings of the WTC (or anything by Bach), so I am really looking forward to listening to the Schiff set (EMC) I just received, and am also looking at the harpsichord set Mandryka suggested above.

It may well be true that Gould's Bk 1 is more successful, it was recorded at a different time and at a different venue. I haven't heard it for years.

As far as piano recordings go, my own favourites are Bernard Roberts and Tatiana Nikolayeva.

And as far as harpsichord only versions go, you only have one I know right now - Walcha (which one? I haven't heard Kirkpatrick play it on harpsichord.) There have been loads of excellent ones since then -- imaginative, stylish and expressive. To some extent it doesn't matter whether  you take the plunge with Weiss, or with Leonhardt, Asperen, Egarr, Belder, Gilbert, Wilson  etc etc,
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on November 22, 2016, 11:20:53 PM
It can hardly be denied that before Gould recording choices for Bach on the piano were fairly limited. (There were probably more options for the WTC than for most other pieces, OTOH I think some now famous recordings like Feinberg's were not easily available in the West). And if the music was played it was often either "romanticized" or on harpsichord. I think I read once that Brendel played no Scarlatti and only a little Bach because he had been convinced that it was better served on harpsichord.

So it seems in a sense true that Gould was the most famous musician who put Bach's keyboard music beyond a few pieces "on the map" for many listeners and accordingly his quirky style might have one people who might not have been so fascinated by, say, Tureck (who to my ears seems similarly "dry" but without the infectious energy of many Gould recordings).
Of course, he also gained a "cult following" and apparently his music is still selling so well that Sony makes money putting out another "Gould edition" or another mono broadcast "discovery" every few years whereas they neglect (or neglectec until recently) large parts of their back catalogue of other artists.

(My favorite Bach by Gould are probably the partitas.)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on November 23, 2016, 12:06:50 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 22, 2016, 11:20:53 PM
[...]
(My favorite Bach by Gould are probably the partitas.)

'Off-topic' agreement here. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 23, 2016, 05:27:23 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 22, 2016, 07:44:55 AM
Despite what one thinks of Gould's Bach playing, I think it's because he's still one of a kind explains his popularity until today.

In WTC 2 is he really one of a kind? I mean, most of the time isn't he just playing piano a bit like Karl Richter or (better) Helmut Walcha played harpsichord?

Another explanation of his popularity today is the marketing (top of the list when you type BWV 870 in spotify I notice); his reputation for being a bit nutty; the fact that he has a good back story with his early death; his looks.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on November 23, 2016, 07:42:20 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 23, 2016, 05:27:23 AM
In WTC 2 is he really one of a kind? I mean, most of the time isn't he just playing piano a bit like Karl Richter or (better) Helmut Walcha played harpsichord?
[...]

I don't know their entire careers, but did K. Richter and Walcha also played the piano in this manner?
And if so, are there recordings available of them doing so?

If not, then IMO Gould's Bach playing on the piano was still unique or one of a kind.

Btw, to me the harpsichord is an entirely different instrument, because of the 'plucked' instead of the 'hammered' mechanism and sound.
Therefore I don't really think that one can play the piano like a harpsichord, or in a 'harpsichord' manner.

Quote from: Mandryka on November 23, 2016, 05:27:23 AM
[...] Another explanation of his popularity today is the marketing (top of the list when you type BWV 870 in spotify I notice); his reputation for being a bit nutty; the fact that he has a good back story with his early death; his looks.

Well, like XB-70 Valkyrie, I have watched one or two documentaries/movies about Gould with great interest (years ago).
And it's true that, if an artist differs from the average (in his/her performance and/or presence), it can be a good basis for an enduring cult status.

But personally I agree with what Bernard Haitink once said in an interview: the composers are the true geniuses.

(And if the genius Bach is concerned: for his keyboard music, I prefer Leonhardt playing the harpsichord to Gould playing the piano.)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 23, 2016, 08:32:43 AM
Seems like there a so many great recordings of WTC besides Gould. I agree with the sowing machine analogy (at least sometimes). I find Gould to be almost unbearable sometimes on WTC. Today, I happened to be listening to this:
(http://www.pianobleu.com/actuel/images3/edna-stern-bach.jpg)
Just some excerpts from WTC I on there. But captivating stuff.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 23, 2016, 08:36:37 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 23, 2016, 07:42:20 AM
I don't know their entire careers, but did K. Richter and Walcha also played the piano in this manner?
And if so, are there recordings available of them doing so?

If not, then IMO Gould's Bach playing on the piano was still unique or one of a kind.

Btw, to me the harpsichord is an entirely different instrument, because of the 'plucked' instead of the 'hammered' mechanism and sound.
Therefore I don't really think that one can play the piano like a harpsichord, or in a 'harpsichord' manner.

Well, like XB-70 Valkyrie, I have watched one or two documentaries/movies about Gould with great interest (years ago).
And it's true that, if an artist differs from the average (in his/her performance and/or presence), it can be a good basis for an enduring cult status.

But personally I agree with what Bernard Haitink once said in an interview: the composers are the true geniuses.

(And if the genius Bach is concerned: for his keyboard music, I prefer Leonhardt playing the harpsichord to Gould playing the piano.)

All I meant really was that Walcha and Richter play fast and stiff.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 23, 2016, 12:04:43 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 23, 2016, 07:42:20 AM
I don't know their entire careers, but did K. Richter and Walcha also played the piano in this manner?
And if so, are there recordings available of them doing so?

As far as I know there are no existing commercial piano-recordings by these two.

Their hammering harpsichord touch was common from 1950 to ca. 1975 with the revival harpsichords, where the feeling of contact with the string through the quill is as well as non-existent, and which for that reason did not allow any inflection of the tone. See how Karl Richter uses his fingers here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMSwVf_69Hc

This is the kind of touch I most often hear in Gould's Bach-playing on piano, a relentless, hammering and unvaried touch unsuited for piano. Therefore I think Gould's model was the common revival harpsichord sound, and I have never understood, why he did not choose to play harpsichord instead of trying to play harpsichord on piano. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 23, 2016, 12:07:14 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 23, 2016, 08:36:37 AM
All I meant really was that Walcha and Richter play fast and stiff.

Stiff, but not as fast as Gould I think - without having made AB tests.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on November 23, 2016, 08:03:15 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 23, 2016, 08:36:37 AM
All I meant really was that Walcha and Richter play fast and stiff.

I see.
Understood.

Building on that, I agree with this:

Quote from: (: premont :) on November 23, 2016, 12:04:43 PM
[...] I think Gould's model was the common revival harpsichord sound, and I have never understood, why he did not choose to play harpsichord instead of trying to play harpsichord on piano.

That's also the reason why I prefer to listen to pianists who, also in baroque music, use the piano as a piano, i.c. a 19th century instrument.
Just because...

Quote from: Marc on November 23, 2016, 07:42:20 AM
[...]
Btw, to me the harpsichord is an entirely different instrument, because of the 'plucked' instead of the 'hammered' mechanism and sound.
Therefore I don't really think that one can play the piano like a harpsichord, or in a 'harpsichord' manner.
[...]
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on November 23, 2016, 09:52:58 PM
Quote from: milk on November 23, 2016, 08:32:43 AM
Seems like there a so many great recordings of WTC besides Gould. I agree with the sowing machine analogy (at least sometimes). I find Gould to be almost unbearable sometimes on WTC. Today, I happened to be listening to this:
(http://www.pianobleu.com/actuel/images3/edna-stern-bach.jpg)
Just some excerpts from WTC I on there. But captivating stuff.

Or this one, with a few excerpts on organ:

(http://oi63.tinypic.com/4etd.jpg)

Could not find this one on f.i. Amazon.
This is the official link:

http://www.helior.nl/product/koororgel-martinikerk-groningen/

For those interested if this beautiful recital disc is delivered outside NL: e-mail info@helior.nl

Not sure if it's still availabe on Groningen Orgelland: info@groningenorgelland.nl

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 23, 2016, 09:53:23 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 23, 2016, 08:03:15 PM
I
use the piano as a piano, i.c. a 19th century instrument.


That could include:

Touch
Articulation
Ornamentation
Rubato
Voice leading
Voice alignment
Dynamic Variation
Timbre
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on November 23, 2016, 09:59:51 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 23, 2016, 09:53:23 PM
That could include:

Touch
Articulation
Ornamentation
Rubato
Voice leading
Voice alignment
Dynamic Variation
Timbre

Indeed.
But at least not trying to create an artificial 'staccato' harpsichord sound effect on an instrument that's got a completely different timbre and is far more appropriate for more legato and enitrely different dynamic effects... to me, that just sounds unnatural.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on November 23, 2016, 11:14:59 PM
I don't think Gould is simply imitating a harpsichord. For one thing, his preference for non legato extends to almost any music he played; in Beethoven or Mozart the contrast between Gould's way and the "normal" way to play the music might even be more pronounced (and this cannot be because of harpsichord imiation).
And Gould is using different articulations, just very little legato, it's more shades of non legato and staccato. (E.g. take the passage in the major mode in the fugal section of the Toccata in the 6th partita: Gould clearly makes a quite effective contrast here with softer (not only in volume) and more legato playing.)

As far as "pinprick" staccatissimo goes, Mustonen has out-Goulded Gould in some recordings but to be fair Mustonen also uses a broader articulation spectrum while generally also favoring non legato and staccato.

(The harpsichord recording Gould made of 4 Handel suites shows that he was not really experienced with these instruments because he pounds so strongly that there are a lot of extraneous noises...)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: James on November 23, 2016, 11:58:17 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 22, 2016, 11:20:53 PMOf course, he also gained a "cult following" and apparently his music is still selling ...

Of course, that's because he's a genius musician & player. Anyone with ears & a brain can instantly hear that. His name is synonymous with Bach more than any other keyboard player (no one cares about the harpsichord really, let's be honest) and he became internationally recognized right off. So an international following, musicians and music lovers alike. All that great Bach stuff he did is really hard to top .. super high level musicianship, it'll live on forever. One of the greatest musicians of the 20th century, easily.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 24, 2016, 02:24:47 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 23, 2016, 11:14:59 PM
I don't think Gould is simply imitating a harpsichord. For one thing, his preference for non legato extends to almost any music he played; in Beethoven or Mozart the contrast between Gould's way and the "normal" way to play the music might even be more pronounced (and this cannot be because of harpsichord imiation).

I do not think Gould tried to imitate a period harpsichord, but instead the common way at that time to play a revival harpsichord - which was what in the 1960es usually was understood as harpsichord, and a short listening test (the you tube clip) reveals the similarity between Gould's and Karl Richter's "standard" touch. And I find it unlikely, that this similarity could be random.

Concerning Mozart and Beethoven Gould probably knew, that the "common" articulation at the time of Mozart and at least early Beethoven still was non-legato.

On a harpsichord you must press the keys (not hammer upon them as Richter does in the clip) and together with the fast action this allows a very differentiated articulation. The problem is, that legato playing is natural for the modern piano, and a (in the Baroque sense) correct non-legato, which indeed is very close (ordentlisches Fortgehen), is difficult to realise in fast tempo on a modern piano with its slower action and hammer touch. To avoid legato playing pianists trying to play non-legato will tend to exaggerate the detached playing doing staccato instead. This becomes tiring listening rather fast.

I fully agree with Marc, that pianists should play piano-wise whatever they play. Playing otherwise will sound like playing against the instrument.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Wakefield on November 24, 2016, 03:53:09 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 23, 2016, 11:14:59 PM
I don't think Gould is simply imitating a harpsichord. For one thing, his preference for non legato extends to almost any music he played; in Beethoven or Mozart the contrast between Gould's way and the "normal" way to play the music might even be more pronounced (and this cannot be because of harpsichord imiation).
And Gould is using different articulations, just very little legato, it's more shades of non legato and staccato. (E.g. take the passage in the major mode in the fugal section of the Toccata in the 6th partita: Gould clearly makes a quite effective contrast here with softer (not only in volume) and more legato playing.)

As far as "pinprick" staccatissimo goes, Mustonen has out-Goulded Gould in some recordings but to be fair Mustonen also uses a broader articulation spectrum while generally also favoring non legato and staccato.

(The harpsichord recording Gould made of 4 Handel suites shows that he was not really experienced with these instruments because he pounds so strongly that there are a lot of extraneous noises...)

Your description seems irreproachable. To compare Gould to Walcha or Richter (or asserting a sort of common lineage), well, doesn't make any sense to me.

I don't usually listen to Bach played on piano, with the exception of three or four pianists: Rosalyn Truck (her BBC Legends is my favorite WTC on piano); Angela Hewitt, Ivo Janssen and, of course, Gould. Very dissimilar pianists, but I don't care of searching historical consistency when Bach is played on piano (because the use of this instrument is an anachronism itself).

I heard some samples of Mustonen and sound very intereting (I just knew his sister (?) Ella, a harpsichordist). Thanks for pointing out to him!  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: North Star on November 24, 2016, 03:57:07 AM
Quote from: Gordo on November 24, 2016, 03:53:09 AM
I heard some samples of Mustonen and sound very intereting (I just knew her sister (?) Ella, a harpsichordist). Thanks for pointing out to him!  :)
Yes, Elina is his sister.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Wakefield on November 24, 2016, 04:04:11 AM
Quote from: North Star on November 24, 2016, 03:57:07 AM
Yes, Elina is his sister.
Elina, yes! Thanks!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on November 24, 2016, 04:35:28 AM
FWIW Mustonen has a complete WTC I split between two two-disc-sets where each half is mixed with Shostakovich's 24 P & F. The first volume is on RCA, the second on Ondine. It's quite interesting but not really my favorite, I am afraid.

Olli Mustonen definitely "out-goulds" Gould with relentless staccato in his Beethoven variations (Diabellis and one other disc with op.35 etc.)

Elina Mustonen recorded the French and English suites on harpsichord, I am not aware of a WTC.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 24, 2016, 04:58:00 AM
Quote from: Gordo on November 24, 2016, 03:53:09 AM
To compare Gould to Walcha or Richter (or asserting a sort of common lineage), well, doesn't make any sense to me.

I do not claim a common lineage in the strict sense, I only ask myself from where Gould got his excentric ideas about piano playing style. Obviously not from the piano playing of the 1950es. He may well have got inspiration from contemporary revival harpsichord playing. At least the similarity in effect is striking.

Quote from: Gordo
.. but I don't care of searching historical consistency when Bach is played on piano (because the use of this instrument is an anachronism itself).

BTW you never answered my question about which particularly Bachian elements you hear in Gould's Bach. Instead you pointed to some rather un-Bachian details. Maybe the answer should be read between the lines just above.  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 24, 2016, 06:48:41 AM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c5/8e/20/c58e20f96923f433d00af7cc30ea6f82.jpg)
I've got her WTC. I have to go back and listen. I forget what it sounds like. But this live fortepiano recording is so much fun. She does 846, 850, 851, and 875. I don't know if her playing comports with the style of the period of the instrument (1824). Anyway, I'll have to head over to her complete WTC - which is nothing like this.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 24, 2016, 07:11:06 AM
Quote from: Gordo on November 24, 2016, 03:53:09 AM
To compare Gould to Walcha or Richter (or asserting a sort of common lineage), well, doesn't make any sense to me.


Fast and stiff.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on November 24, 2016, 08:10:13 AM
But Gould played *everything* comparably "fast and stiff". I still do not see a reason why he should have been using this stylistic feature for Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, even the romantics and moderns he played if it was mainly inspired by 1950s "revival" harpsichord players.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 24, 2016, 09:13:01 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 24, 2016, 08:10:13 AM
But Gould played *everything* comparably "fast and stiff". I still do not see a reason why he should have been using this stylistic feature for Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, even the romantics and moderns he played if it was mainly inspired by 1950s "revival" harpsichord players.

From Gould hands I only know as well as all his Bach,Beethoven and Handel. I parted with CDs since long, but IIRC his Beethoven is not quite as fast and stiff as his Bach, but you may be right that this style more or less was a general feature in his playing, so to say his brand. However, I still find the similarity between his Bach-style and the style of the most prominent revival harpsichord players noticeable not to say striking.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on November 24, 2016, 09:23:44 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 24, 2016, 09:13:01 AM
From Gould hands I only know as well as all his Bach,Beethoven and Handel. I parted with CDs since long, but IIRC his Beethoven is not quite as fast and stiff as his Bach, but you may be right that this style more or less was a general feature in his playing, so to say his brand. However, I still find the similarity between his Bach-style and the style of the most prominent revival harpsichord players noticeable not to say striking.

He may not be everyone's cup of tea (he is far from my favorite Bach performer on Piano) but he was a genius who more-or-less discovered a new way to perform Bach on the piano. Be brought a new level of clarity and precision to the performance of these works on piano. You don't like the recordings. Fine. But the continuous effort to brand his performances as somehow illegitimate is tiresome.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 24, 2016, 09:40:33 AM
Playing stiffly was part of the modernist post war musical ideology. Taruskin discusses this at some length with various quotes by critics saying things like Bach is all about a uniform pulse. Changes in pulse were only tolerated to mark some major structural event.

Toscanini bought into these ideas I think, and so did the revival harpsichordists and Glenn Gould

This all started with my comments on WTC 2, which was made after he had given up concertising. My feeling is that GG is less generally stiff in Brahms and Scriabin and Schoenberg, more stiff in Bach, Mozart, Haydn and early Beethoven, and that his later recordings are stiffer than his earlier ones. I haven't checked this out at all carefully, I propose it just as a hypothesis for refutation.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 24, 2016, 09:43:47 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 24, 2016, 09:23:44 AM
He may not be everyone's cup of tea (he is far from my favorite Bach performer on Piano) but he was a genius who more-or-less discovered a new way to perform Bach on the piano. Be brought a new level of clarity and precision to the performance of these works on piano. You don't like the recordings. Fine. But the continuous effort to brand his performances as somehow illegitimate is tiresome.

It never occurred to me, that his style should be illegitimate whatever its background might be, Think of how much musicians owe to their forerunners. Toscanini/Karajan, Furtwängler/Barenboim e.g. Everyone creates his own style based on elements from the past. Even the greatest art is rarely plucked out of the air.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on November 24, 2016, 10:16:55 AM
This is the comment that got my back up.

Quote from: (: premont :) on November 23, 2016, 12:04:43 PMThis is the kind of touch I most often hear in Gould's Bach-playing on piano, a relentless, hammering and unvaried touch unsuited for piano. Therefore I think Gould's model was the common revival harpsichord sound, and I have never understood, why he did not choose to play harpsichord instead of trying to play harpsichord on piano.

I probably overreacted, but the judgmental tone of the comment hit a nerve.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on November 24, 2016, 12:42:23 PM
According to Taruskin the "modernist" way to play Bach/Baroque is to play it like Stravinskian neobaroque...
I wonder how other pianists who departed from a more or less "romantic" way of playing Bach played Bach in the 1950s. Gulda who was about the same age plays also fairly "motoric"; I have not heard the Demus WTC that apparently was praised once in Piano Quarterly or some other magazine.

But apparently Gould really struck a nerve, otherwise his interpretations would not have been considered so extraordinary.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 25, 2016, 01:15:59 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 22, 2016, 11:20:53 PM
Tureck (who to my ears seems similarly "dry" . . .)


I don't think this is quite the case in the DG recording of WTC 2 - which seems to be more ubiquitously inflected rhythmically than Gould's. It may well be that she became a stiffy later on.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 26, 2016, 02:04:12 AM
Quote from: milk on November 25, 2016, 04:55:14 PM
Piggybacking off of this Gould discussion, it's been a while since I listened to Wanda Landowska. So, then, what's her style by comparison? She used a weird instrument and there must be something anachronistic there? Does Gould react to her in some way?

This may well have been a contributing factor. Even some of Landowska's pupils reacted to her slowish, colorful and romantic style.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 26, 2016, 02:08:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 25, 2016, 01:15:59 PM
I don't think this is quite the case in the DG recording of WTC 2 - which seems to be more ubiquitously inflected rhythmically than Gould's. It may well be that she became a stiffy later on.

I heard/saw her at a recital in the late 1960es. As far as I recall the motoric rhythms were somewhat predominant.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 26, 2016, 08:11:07 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 26, 2016, 02:08:23 AM
I heard/saw her at a recital in the late 1960es. As far as I recall the motoric rhythms were somewhat predominant.

Yes I saw her towards the end of her career play the Goldbergs and it was most uninspiring.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: James on November 26, 2016, 03:13:08 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 24, 2016, 08:10:13 AMBut Gould played *everything* comparably "fast and stiff". I still do not see a reason why he should have been using this stylistic feature for Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, even the romantics and moderns he played if it was mainly inspired by 1950s "revival" harpsichord players.

Gould was not inspired by revival harpsichordists, or any other player in particular - though he admired great musicians and studied great composers. He played with an immense musicality. His genius and talent were evident extremely early in age and he spent virtually all of his lifetime on the planet dealing with music in various capacities. He was a child prodigy. His interpretations stem from his insights, tastes and his imagination. The majority of musicians within the classical world (especially) are bland & anonymous, churning out lifeless, boring performances .. but not Gould, he was a true original, the integrity is there and he shed a dazzling light on what he played.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 26, 2016, 10:32:22 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/025/MI0001025389.jpg)

Bernard Roberts's way with Bk 2 makes all the voices clear at all times. He places the voices in a way which makes them stand in an interesting relation to each other, not just one voice dominating and one voice accompanying. His way of using piano is restrained in terms or colour and dynamics, which leaves the music sounding more noble than sentimental or thrilling.

What he does is quite brave in the world of piano, where the musicians sometimes bring along 19th century aesthetic ideas.

What he lacks is expressive rubato, hence at an emotional level this doesn't seem as successful as  Leonhardt, Asperen, Chorzempa, Gilbert, Wilson . . .
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: James on November 27, 2016, 06:47:38 AM
Hard to imagine anything topping Gould's truly extraordinary WTC.
Sounds as fresh now as it did over 50 years ago!
Rightfully hailed as one of the greatest piano recordings of all time.
Line above tone here, rhythmic integrity, temporal variety & excitement.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 28, 2016, 03:32:09 AM
I'm just listening to prelude 874...and flipping around between Gould and others, like Watchorn, Wilson, Woodward and Leonhardt. Lots of W's on the board. I imagine many pianists would say Gould inspired them (but maybe not his style? just him?) Are there popular pianists today who take after him, stylistically? If you can always tell the musician after a few notes then they definitely have something. That's something I forgot about "what makes the best the best." Gould is always Gould. You can't miss him. I don't think I'd be listening to classical music if not for Gould. Gould is pretty flexible in 874. But I somehow feel there is always a "box" in Gould. Something annoys me about him these days. He's very insistent. Moving on to prelude 876 and Crossland: there's a lot of sunlight there. But Gould? It's a kind of insanity! I think Gould is really too insistent. It's like he wants us to see the math of it? I imagine for Gould that Bach is a world that keeps going. But (now moving to Wilson who takes it much more "normally") Gould is still a bit too much.   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on November 28, 2016, 04:14:20 AM
Could you please refer to the pieces by key and Book I/II...

As I said, Mustonen is something of an excentric in his own right. But I would be very surprised if his staccato preference was not inspired by Gould. Gulda is roughly contemporary with Gould and his WTC is also very "dry" at times (and very directly recorded which adds to the dry and percussive character). Meyer (1940s and 50s, Inventions/Sinfonias, Italian Concerto and a few suites and toccatas) is not as dry but also fairly fast, "light" and not "romantic". Overall, I do not know enough Bach recordings on piano clearly pre-Gould.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 28, 2016, 07:27:59 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 24, 2016, 12:42:23 PM
According to Taruskin the "modernist" way to play Bach/Baroque is to play it like Stravinskian neobaroque...
I wonder how other pianists who departed from a more or less "romantic" way of playing Bach played Bach in the 1950s. Gulda who was about the same age plays also fairly "motoric"; I have not heard the Demus WTC that apparently was praised once in Piano Quarterly or some other magazine.

But apparently Gould really struck a nerve, otherwise his interpretations would not have been considered so extraordinary.
I haven't had the good fortune to see lots of concerts but I did see Demus here in Japan a few years ago, in a very small venue (mostly for his Japanese students). That concert really blew me away - not that I have much to compare it to. It was all WTC, though I don't remember the pieces or which book he played more of. I do remember that after playing 2 or 3 sets he would go to the back of the room and sit down for about 30 seconds and sort of ponder before returning to the piano and continuing.
That concert really moved me. I can't tell you what he was doing musically but it just seemed so imaginative to me. I remember one of his students telling me that he had a really smooth velvet touch and I remember thinking I couldn't disagree more. I guess I thought he really played with the counterpoint and that he was very angular, if that makes any sense.
I wish I could have purchased the recording they made but they wanted like 200$ for it. I don't know...I just thought, "well, that's a bit much."
 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on November 28, 2016, 08:03:00 AM
Was the Demus WTC ever on CD? Or did he re-record it? I have book II on 3 LPs (rec. 1971) but I cannot play them now... There seems a more recent Bach (partitas and Goldbergs) set on Nuova Era CDs.
Demus will be 88 on Friday, apparently he is still active. Of the Austrian pianists of his generation, Gulda, Brendel, Badura-Skoda and Demus he seems the least well represented on recordings, at least on CD. There are quite a few LPs, though.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 28, 2016, 08:26:43 AM
You can download his WTC from the 1970s here, I think it's worth hearing.

https://archive.org/details/04BWV849
https://archive.org/details/ppyjc61_yahoo_889
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on November 28, 2016, 09:48:55 AM
Quote from: milk on November 28, 2016, 03:32:09 AM
Something annoys me about him [Gould] these days. He's very insistent. Moving on to prelude 876 and Crossland: there's a lot of sunlight there. But Gould? It's a kind of insanity! I think Gould is really too insistent. It's like he wants us to see the math of it? I imagine for Gould that Bach is a world that keeps going. But (now moving to Wilson who takes it much more "normally") Gould is still a bit too much.

I think 'insistent' is a rather good way of putting it.  He wants to make every note count.  Rather like someone talking a bit too loud and standing a bit too close.  Of course the close-miked piano adds to that feeling, and I'm sure it was a creative decision to record the piano in this way.  OF COURSE IT IS GOING TO GET INSIDE YOUR HEAD.

Well after following this discussion with interest I just had to listen to Gould yesterday.  I listened to some of Book I (I like the music better in Book I).  The first thing I noticed was that the piano sounded much better than I remember - too close for modern taste to be sure, but very well balanced in its way.   I was dozing a bit (for some reason I often do, when I try to listen really hard :-[) but my attention was grabbed by the 14th Fugue (F# minor) and was held during the following 2 pairs (15th and 16th, G major and G minor).  At this point I stopped and tried a few others in my collection for comparison.

Hewitt (her 2nd recording, which I guessed might be more of a contrast than her first), Richter, MacGregor (not a CD, but she can be found on YouTube) and as a sanity check, Kenneth Gilbert on harpsichord.  (I was going to include Roberts which I do have, but I remember I disliked him so much on first hearing that he's now only on some dusty backup drive somewhere.)

It's a bit of a simplification to describe Gould as 'fast'.  He was never the outright fastest of this group in any of these six pieces.  In the 14th Fugue (which had first caught my attention) he started slow and gradually got slower as the piece progressed.  Overall only Richter took longer over it.  In the 15th Prelude he was very fast and sewing-machiney if you like, but for the 43 seconds that it lasted that effect worked for me better than MacGregor who matched him for speed :o but with more variation of touch.  In the 16th Prelude he was the slowest of all, and in the Fugue the 2nd-slowest (after Richter).
So I'd suggest it is more that Gould just wants to be different - is drawn towards the extremes of tempo and avoids the middle ground.  In contrast to his latter-day compatriot Hewitt who makes a positive virtue of occupying the middle ground.

After listening to Gould, the other pianists just sounded as though they were coming to Bach via Chopin.  They were an easier listen, to be sure.  But Gould more effective at channelling Bach, it seemed to me.  If I could only have one I'd probably take Richter, as the most musical of this small selection of performers.

Whenever I think of Gould, I also think of Bobby Fischer (who my father, a rather good chess player, worshipped as a hero).  Similar types, surely.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 28, 2016, 11:35:42 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 28, 2016, 09:48:55 AM

After listening to Gould, the other pianists just sounded as though they were coming to Bach via Chopin.  They were an easier listen, to be sure.  But Gould more effective at channelling Bach, it seemed to me.  If I could only have one I'd probably take Richter, as the most musical of this small selection of performers.


Richter actually seems to be very much coming at it from a 19th century point of view to me. Legato, pedal, colourful timbres, an articulation which brings out  long and sinuous melodies. I'm going from memory here, I could be wrong.
Quote from: aukhawk on November 28, 2016, 09:48:55 AM

But Gould more effective at channelling Bach, it seemed to me.


Because . . . ?



Quote from: aukhawk on November 28, 2016, 09:48:55 AM

So I'd suggest it is more that Gould just wants to be different - is drawn towards the extremes of tempo and avoids the middle ground. 



People play fast when  they're nervous. I suggest he was nervous of WTC, of the feelings that it was evoking in him, despite himself.

Quote from: aukhawk on November 28, 2016, 09:48:55 AM

Hewitt who makes a positive virtue of occupying the middle ground.



I think that's a bit unfair to her you know, for one thing the interpretation avoids forcefulness, again from memory. I'm talking about the second recording. And she has her own ideas about voice leading and ornamentation.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on November 28, 2016, 04:20:06 PM
Quote from: milk on November 28, 2016, 04:08:39 PM
Perhaps it's a little of an annoying question...I've been through these threads many times...but I wonder if those contributing to the discussion on Gould could each offer their top 3 piano interpretations? I find myself biased towards the harpsichord and much more clear about what I like there. But for piano...I don't have Hewitt. Crossland is good as is Woodward. But, just listening to Woodward, the recording is very reverberant. I feel like I'm at the back of an empty hall. Or, what are best WTC on piano recorded in the last twenty years or so? Gould is tightly-wrought and intense. As a character, he reminds me of Fischer too. But that might be unfair. Gould was eccentric and, perhaps, obsessive or maybe somewhat compulsive. Fischer seemed like a true paranoid.

My top 3 - Feinberg, Richter and Tureck (DG.)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 28, 2016, 05:18:59 PM
Quote from: George on November 28, 2016, 04:20:06 PM
My top 3 - Feinberg, Richter and Tureck (DG.)
Ah! Feinberg! I just realized I have book 2. I shall buy 1 presently. I love that performance. Somehow the Feinberg recalls my experience of the Demus concert. But I can't be sure if I am remembering correctly.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 28, 2016, 06:04:24 PM
I just received and have started listening to the latest Andras Schiff on ECM (only listened to 1-8 in Bk I). Of course, it is quite polished, elegant, and understated, but there are some very nice instances of skillful use of piano to highlight the various voices. I am not sure it will become a favorite like Richter or Feinberg, but I am enjoying it quite a bit. Has anyone heard it?

I think Richard Egarr will be my next version...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 01:14:52 AM
Quote from: milk on November 28, 2016, 04:08:39 PM
Perhaps it's a little of an annoying question...I've been through these threads many times...but I wonder if those contributing to the discussion on Gould could each offer their top 3 piano interpretations?

Nikolayeva 1972
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 29, 2016, 01:40:56 AM
If it must be on piano, Ivo Janssen:

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Complete-Keyboard/dp/B0053HBKZO
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 02:45:16 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 29, 2016, 01:40:56 AM
If it must be on piano, Ivo Janssen:

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Complete-Keyboard/dp/B0053HBKZO

Have you heard Peter Hill?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 29, 2016, 03:15:27 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 02:45:16 AM
Have you heard Peter Hill?

Only the f-minor from book I. You posted a reference to it once for comparation with Gulda.. I have to say, that I do not at all like his style. Too saggy rhythm and deliberate touch.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 05:52:22 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 29, 2016, 03:15:27 AM
Only the f-minor from book I. You posted a reference to it once for comparation with Gulda.. I have to say, that I do not at all like his style. Too saggy rhythm and deliberate touch.

Gosh, you must be an elephant, I can't remember posting it, I only have Book 2 now, I used to have Bk. 1. In terms of rhythm and touch it seems OK to me. The reason I mentioned it is as follows:

The problem I have with all modern piano recordings I know is that the sound of each note is too heavy. In a harpsichord performance, a good one like Leonhardt's (which I've just been playing), there's air between each note which brings a wonderful lightness to the textures, it must be real hard to do on piano because they don't. Peter Hill is  lighter and fresher than other modern piano recordings.  In other respects, the  interpretation would be is neutral, mainstream, if it were on harpsichord we'd say it was worthless, made no contribution. But it's not on harpsichord, so it's centrality, paradoxically,  becomes a novelty. And a way harpsichordophobes can access something good.

I am becoming anti-modern piano in WTC 2 at least. It doesn't suit most of the music. Hill and Nikolayeva make me think I may be being unfair to the instrument and the we should shoot the piano players, not the pianos.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on November 29, 2016, 06:50:01 AM
But didn't someone above say that it was foolish to try to imitate features of the harpsichord on the piano?

I think the pieces from both WTC books are sufficiently diverse that some can profit from the possibilities of the modern piano, be it generally "heavier" sound, dynamic shades, or more cantabile sound because the tones are sustained longer.
If anything the arpeggio or moto perpetuo pieces among the book 1 preludes work better on harpsichord for my taste (same goes for the more "gypsy guitar" Scarlatti sonatas and the Handelian movements with variation by diminuition). But the more elaborate preludes and most of the fugues can work well on different instruments (and they bring out different features better/less good respectively).
In his "mixed" recording Levin plays e.g. the E major fugue from book II on the organ which is very apt for this "stile antico" piece and while the modern piano cannot imitate the organ, it is weightier and can sustain notes longer than an harpsichord or clavichord.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on November 29, 2016, 07:09:41 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 28, 2016, 09:48:55 AM
But Gould more effective at channelling Bach, it seemed to me.
Quote from: Mandryka on November 28, 2016, 11:35:42 AM
Because . . . ?

A fair question, to which I don't have an answer, sorry.
And Richter, yes, very 19thC, pedals his way shamelessly through Bk I Prelude 16 for example.  But I've never heard the 1st Prelude played better than Richter does it.  (Admittedly, somehow it ends up sounding a bit like The Isle of the Dead ...)

But the real reason I've come back is to confess that I did Roberts an injustice - searching through my collection I eventually realised it is his recording of the 6 Partitas that I have, and don't like.  I'll try to keep an open mind about his WTC, which I haven't heard.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 07:50:00 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 29, 2016, 07:05:07 AM

I prefer the piano for Bach's music because of its dynamic possibilities in bringing out the contrapuntal lines.  Also, there are more options for articulation and phrasing. 



Can you say a bit more about these two or three points? Dynamics and counterpoint, articulation (=phrasing?) options.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 08:17:11 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 29, 2016, 08:02:17 AM
It is really very simple: the piano has unlimited capacity for dynamic variation, i.e. playing loudly or softly depending upon the performer's touch.  My understanding of the harpsichord is that this is not possible: it does not matter how hard you hit the key the plucked string plays at the same volume - the only way dynamic variation is possible is by the addition of another keyboard. 



I just want you to spell this out fully, it's relation to counterpoint. I don't want to put words into your mouth, but if you think that the dynamic possibilities mean that you can attract  the listener's attention to one of multiple simultaneous voices, you're right, but the same can be done on harpsichord by means of rhythm and tempo. That's why little micro-hesitations are so central to baroque harpsichord playing - they attract your attention to a bit of the music. The effect in terms of voice leading is not quite the same because all the voices are equally clear, even though your attention is led to one. Some people (me) think that that makes the music sound better, not least because the harmonies which occur when the notes in different voices collide are always very evident.

Quote from: sanantonio on November 29, 2016, 08:02:17 AM

Similarly, the articulation, i.e. legato-staccato playing, is infinitely more expressive on the piano than the harpsichord.


Ah, that sort of articulation (not phrasing) I'm not sure I agree with you here. I need to think.

Quote from: sanantonio on November 29, 2016, 08:02:17 AM

By utilizing these advantages, a performer on the piano can bring out contrapuntal lines among a complex texture with more clarity.

Aha, this does look as though you're talking about making one line the melody and the rest the accompaniment. Is that what it's boiling down to?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 08:52:28 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 29, 2016, 08:32:06 AM
Yes.  For me, it is more natural and musical on the piano than the kind of rhythmic (aggogic) and tempo variations you referred to that are possible on the harpsichord.  But you must remember that the "melody" is in constant flux, moving from voice to voice and to call the other voices accompaniment is not how I would describe them. 

A good pianist will incorporate various levels of articulation/dynamics producing a variety of weights based on the importance of the musical content occuring at any moment.


When a harpsichord player uses agogics for voice leading, the voices start to come slightly out of alignment. The relation between the voices can become something which adds a lot of drama to the music. You know, it can appear as though one voice is pulling the music back or pushing it forward, that sort of thing. 

You may find someone who does this sort of thing (Wilson, Egarr, Leonhardt, Asperen . . . ) unnatural and unmusical, but I don't, and I know it's the sort of thing that 16th and 17th century musicians did. You're dismissing a lot of music making there. It's a bit like someone (perish the thought) saying that they find the pianistic approach to Bach dumbed down!

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: James on November 29, 2016, 09:03:44 AM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 28, 2016, 06:04:24 PM
I just received and have started listening to the latest Andras Schiff on ECM (only listened to 1-8 in Bk I). Of course, it is quite polished, elegant, and understated, but there are some very nice instances of skillful use of piano to highlight the various voices. I am not sure it will become a favorite like Richter or Feinberg, but I am enjoying it quite a bit. Has anyone heard it?

I think Richard Egarr will be my next version...

Schiff is a great player .. I really like his old Decca Bach recordings.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 29, 2016, 09:18:35 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 05:52:22 AM
Gosh, you must be an elephant, I can't remember posting it, I only have Book 2 now, I used to have Bk. 1. In terms of rhythm and touch it seems OK to me. The reason I mentioned it is as follows:

Hopefully not an elephant in a china store.  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 29, 2016, 09:25:58 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 29, 2016, 08:02:17 AM
Similarly, the articulation, i.e. legato-staccato playing, is infinitely more expressive on the piano than the harpsichord.

From a technical point of view it is just the opposite. One can produce more differentiated and therefore expressive articulation on a harpsichord than on a piano. Variations of dynamics, which a piano can make, have nothing with articulation as such to do.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on November 29, 2016, 09:26:17 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 08:52:28 AMWhen a harpsichord player uses agogics for voice leading, the voices start to come slightly out of alignment. The relation between the voices can become something which adds a lot of drama to the music. You know, it can appear as though one voice is pulling the music back or pushing it forward, that sort of thing. 

You may find someone who does this sort of thing (Wilson, Egarr, Leonhardt, Asperen . . . ) unnatural and unmusical, but I don't, and I know it's the sort of thing that 16th and 17th century musicians did. You're dismissing a lot of music making there. It's a bit like someone (perish the thought) saying that they find the pianistic approach to Bach dumbed down!

This is the main reason I find Bach on the piano more satisfying. The gradations of dynamics and articulation possible on the piano allow voices to be differentiated without the use of agogic, which I find distracting.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 09:30:00 AM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 28, 2016, 06:04:24 PM
I just received and have started listening to the latest Andras Schiff on ECM (only listened to 1-8 in Bk I). Of course, it is quite polished, elegant, and understated, but there are some very nice instances of skillful use of piano to highlight the various voices. I am not sure it will become a favorite like Richter or Feinberg, but I am enjoying it quite a bit. Has anyone heard it?



It seems totally middle of the road in every respect.

Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 28, 2016, 06:04:24 PM

I think Richard Egarr will be my next version...

This is a very creative and innovative interpretation, you couldn't get further from "middle of the road."
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 09:32:06 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 29, 2016, 09:26:17 AM
This is the main reason I find Bach on the piano more satisfying. The gradations of dynamics and articulation possible on the piano allow voices to be differentiated without the use of agogic, which I find distracting.

Distracting from what?

Have you heard Leonhardt's? I just can't imagine you'd find his organic rubato distracting from anything.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 29, 2016, 09:40:54 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 29, 2016, 08:32:06 AM
Yes.  For me, it is more natural and musical on the piano than the kind of rhythmic (aggogic) and tempo variations you referred to that are possible on the harpsichord.  But you must remember that the "melody" is in constant flux, moving from voice to voice and to call the other voices accompaniment is not how I would describe them. 

But much dynamic variation (except for the use of terrace dynamics) was not a natural component of keyboard music in Bach's time. Therefore the interest of the music depends instead - among other things - on melody, counterpoint, rhythm and harmony.

I use to say, that the "coloring" of Bach's keyboard music (and all early keyboard music) with dynamic variation corresponds to the coloring of old copperplate engravings or black-white movies. It spoils the experience of the shapes, in the same way as dynamic variation spoils the experience of the melody, counterpoint et. c.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 09:43:00 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 29, 2016, 09:37:49 AM
Everything that can be done on a harpsichord regarding rubato and agogic phrasing is also possible on a piano.  However, everything possible on a piano is not available on a harpsichord.

I know what you're getting at though there's the issue of the piano's sustain. That's why I brought up Peter Hill a couple of hours ago - it gives me hope, as does Nikolayeva for another type of piano performance, an organistic one (the one I was talking about with Todd recently by Michael Levinas is also interesting in that respect.)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on November 29, 2016, 09:45:40 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 09:32:06 AM
Distracting from what?

Have you heard Leonhardt's? I just can't imagine you'd find his organic rubato distracting from anything.

I have not heard Leonhardt. Van Asperin is the most recent harpsichord version of the WTC I have listened to. I find the tempo variations typically used in harpsichord performance it distracting because they interfere with my ability to follow the rhythmic pulse of the music.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 29, 2016, 09:48:31 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 29, 2016, 09:32:28 AM
How is this accomplished?  My understanding of the plucking action of a harpsichord does not allow for dynamic variation or stresses, touch articulation, i.e. staccato/legato as is possible on a piano.

Dynamic variation is not possible. But a harpsichord has got a faster action than a piano, Therefore you can graduate the time, you want the tone to sound, better than on a piano, and this is what articulation means.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on November 29, 2016, 09:49:30 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 29, 2016, 09:40:54 AM
But much dynamic variation (except for the use of terrace dynamics) was not a natural component of keyboard music in Bach's time. Therefore the interest of the music depends instead - among other things - on melody, counterpoint, rhythm and harmony.

I use to say, that the "coloring" of Bach's keyboard music (and all early keyboard music) with dynamic variation corresponds to the coloring of old copperplate engravings or black-white movies. It spoils the experience of the shapes, in the same way as dynamic variation spoils the experience of the melody, counterpoint et. c.

I don't favor romantic style dynamic climaxes in performance of Bach's contrapuntal music. I appreciate use of dynamic and articulation contrasts between the voices that allows the counterpoint to be made more clear.  My view is that Bach wants us to hear all the voices as independent and any performance technique that helps achieve this is not against the spirit of Bach, even if it involves performance practices not used during his time.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 09:58:45 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 29, 2016, 09:45:40 AM
I have not heard Leonhardt. Van Asperin is the most recent harpsichord version of the WTC I have listened to. I find the tempo variations typically used in harpsichord performance it distracting because they interfere with my ability to follow the rhythmic pulse of the music.
It's an interesting answer, which makes me realise just how subjective listening is (I just don't have the problem with following the pulse, and I find rock steady performances don't have the sort of nuance that I need to keep me engaged.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 29, 2016, 10:03:36 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 29, 2016, 09:51:26 AM
For me articulation means how the note is struck: hard, soft, short, long, etc.  on the piano these produce different sounds; not so on a harpsichord.

If you include dynamic variation in the concept of articulation, your definition of course only holds true for the piano.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 10:05:16 AM
One thing to say is that although true dynamic variation (as measured in dB) on a harpsichord isn't really possible over short parts of music, a harpsichordist can create the illusion of dynamic variation by means of things like agogic accents, even for just one note. It can be really convincing. Of course for larger sections of music you can use a coupler to pluck more strings and hence to play louder.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 29, 2016, 10:14:03 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 29, 2016, 10:05:11 AM
And every other instrument in the orchestra.

Of course I meant "as opposed to the harpsichord."
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 29, 2016, 10:21:42 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 29, 2016, 09:49:30 AM
.. My view is that Bach wants us to hear all the voices as independent

But this is perfectly possible on a harpsichord,
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on November 29, 2016, 10:48:31 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 29, 2016, 10:21:42 AM
But this is perfectly possible on a harpsichord,

Harpsichord players typically use agogic accents to achieve this, which do not like, as I mentioned above.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 29, 2016, 11:04:41 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 29, 2016, 10:48:31 AM
Harpsichord players typically use agogic accents to achieve this, which do not like, as I mentioned above.

True. But agogic accents do not need to disturb the basic pulse, and may instead communicate a very organic feeling. Leonhardt's Bach recordings displays this better than anything else.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 11:06:09 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 29, 2016, 10:48:31 AM
Harpsichord players typically use agogic accents to achieve this, which do not like, as I mentioned above.

https://www.youtube.com/v/hw9q8kbnDWM

This is Kirkpatrick playing 876 fugue on some sort of harpsichord -- not a very nice one. He uses some rubato but in most of the fugue very little. Notice the independence of voices, and the illusion of dynamic variation, especially in the music around 1'20 passim . I hadn't heard it before.

Isn't it nice to see the way that Bach wrote his name, with the B made with the S!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on November 29, 2016, 01:05:11 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 11:06:09 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/hw9q8kbnDWM

This is Kirkpatrick playing 876 fugue on some sort of harpsichord -- not a very nice one. He uses some rubato but in most of the fugue very little. Notice the independence of voices, and the illusion of dynamic variation, especially in the music around 1'20 passim . I hadn't heard it before.

Isn't it nice to see the way that Bach wrote his name, with the B made with the S!

Had that recording on DG Archiv CD at one point. Never managed to listen to the set all the way through. I didn't hear the illusion of dynamic variation so much as the illusion of skeletons copulating on a corrugated tin roof, as the famous Beecham quip goes. I simply do not enjoy the sound of the instrument.

I have listened to the WTC on harpsichord because I felt it important to know what Bach expected when he wrote it. I am thankful that responsibility is discharged once and for all. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: KevinP on November 29, 2016, 08:41:01 PM
Would people here mind saving me 62 pages of reading and re-reading and recommend some recordings of the WTC on harpsichord? All mine are on piano.

(I actually am slowly reviewing this thread again, but recommendations are still appreciated.)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on November 29, 2016, 09:32:42 PM
Quote from: KevinP on November 29, 2016, 08:41:01 PM
Would people here mind saving me 62 pages of reading and re-reading and recommend some recordings of the WTC on harpsichord? All mine are on piano.

(I actually am slowly reviewing this thread again, but recommendations are still appreciated.)

Maybe you'll find this an interesting read... it includes some fine suggestions:

http://www.bsherman.net/WTC.htm
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 29, 2016, 11:31:58 PM
Quote from: KevinP on November 29, 2016, 08:41:01 PM
Would people here mind saving me 62 pages of reading and re-reading and recommend some recordings of the WTC on harpsichord? All mine are on piano.

(I actually am slowly reviewing this thread again, but recommendations are still appreciated.)
I guess people will say that Glen Wilson, Gilbert and Leonhardt are at the top of the list. I think so. I still like Robert Levin's efforts which include clavichord, organ and fortepiano, in a addition to the harpsichord even though his interpretations are often quite sprightly and straightforward (I like their sunny baroqueness). The organ work is especially illuminating. I wonder if anyone has revisited Watchorn lately? His playing is so slow. So, who else is as imaginative as Feinberg on any instrument? I can't get enough of that lately. He makes my head spin!   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on November 30, 2016, 12:15:21 AM
I'll second Levin's "mixed" approach on Haenssler. Should be fairly cheap on German Amazon (and maybe elsewhere). Wilson's is hard to find separately, I think.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 30, 2016, 03:29:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 29, 2016, 11:06:09 AM
This is Kirkpatrick playing 876 fugue on some sort of harpsichord -- not a very nice one. He uses some rubato but in most of the fugue very little. Notice the independence of voices, and the illusion of dynamic variation, especially in the music around 1'20 passim . I hadn't heard it before.

This is a clavichord, which explains the small degrees of dynamic variation.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 30, 2016, 04:47:07 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 30, 2016, 03:29:02 AM
This is a clavichord, which explains the small degrees of dynamic variation.

Someone above made a post to say that they'd got him doing it on a harpsichord, that's what threw me. Anyway maybe I can conclude that Kirkpatrick's clavichord played a a high volume sounds like a revival harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 30, 2016, 05:07:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 30, 2016, 04:47:07 AM
Someone above made a post to say that they'd got him doing it on a harpsichord, that's what threw me. Anyway maybe I can conclude that Kirkpatrick's clavichord played a a high volume sounds like a revival harpsichord.

Sometimes it may be difficult to distinguish, but in the actual case there is no doubt,

I do not know if Kirkpatrick recorded the WTC on harpsichord on a US-label in the early 1950es - he did make some Bach recordings by then, but certain is that he recorded the WTC (both volumes) on clavichord for Archiv ca. 1960 and a few years later on (Neupert revival-) harpsichord for ordinary DG. I have never seen these harpsichord recordings on CD. The Bach/Kirkpatrick harpsichord box DG released some ten years ago ought (since it claimed to becomplete) to have contained these recordings - and BTW also his recording of the toccatas.



Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on November 30, 2016, 05:18:52 AM
The box only says "complete 1950s" Archiv recordings and apparently does not contain any WTC. The clavichord WTC was on two "Originals" twofers. I doubt that the later harpsichord recordings were ever on CD or if they were either only available in Japan or a long time ago around 1990. I dimly recall that there were a few silver-colored Archiv CD boxes dedicated to Bach and there might have been a harpsichord box among them with these recordings. But generally in the early 1990s Archiv wanted to sell their premium price stuff played by Kenneth Gilbert...

[asin]B0002ANQW2[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on November 30, 2016, 05:34:48 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 30, 2016, 05:07:32 AM
Sometimes it may be difficult to distinguish, but in the actual case there is no doubt,

I do not know if Kirkpatrick recorded the WTC on harpsichord on a US-label in the early 1950es - he did make some Bach recordings by then, but certain is that he recorded the WTC (both volumes) on clavichord for Archiv ca. 1960 and a few years later on (Neupert revival-) harpsichord for ordinary DG. I have never seen these harpsichord recordings on CD. The Bach/Kirkpatrick harpsichord box DG released some ten years ago ought (since it claimed to becomplete) to have contained these recordings - and BTW also his recording of the toccatas.

The klavichord is also quieter, as I understand, but that wouldn't be obvious on a recording where the playback volume is adjustable.

I had Kirkpatrick's toccatas on vinyl once. My favorite klavichord recording was oscar Peterson and joe pass playing tunes from porgie and Bess
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 30, 2016, 05:40:44 AM
Does anyone know what type of clavichord Kirkpatrick used? I wonder whether it was a historical instrument or a copy, or some sort of "revival" clavichord.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 30, 2016, 05:47:16 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 30, 2016, 05:18:52 AM
The box only says "complete 1950s" Archiv recordings and apparently does not contain any WTC.

Apparently? It does not contain any WTC, so the WTC and the toccatas on harpsichord were probably recorded in the early 1960es.But WTC vol. i on clavichord was recorded 1959, so the box is not complete indeed.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 30, 2016, 06:02:15 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 30, 2016, 05:40:44 AM
Does anyone know what type of clavichord Kirkpatrick used? I wonder whether it was a historical instrument or a copy, or some sort of "revival" clavichord.


Bernard Sherman writes here, that the clavichord for book I was built by Arnold Dolmetsch. There are also some comments upon Troeger's recordings:

http://www.bsherman.net/Bachonclavichord.htm
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 30, 2016, 06:39:54 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 30, 2016, 05:34:48 AM
I had Kirkpatrick's toccatas on vinyl once.

So did I, and I also owned his WTC II on harpsichord. I recall a most charmless revival-sound, much worse than the sound on the toccatas and suites.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 30, 2016, 07:43:21 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 30, 2016, 06:02:15 AM

Bernard Sherman writes here, that the clavichord for book I was built by Arnold Dolmetsch. There are also some comments upon Troeger's recordings:

http://www.bsherman.net/Bachonclavichord.htm

Cheers, it is indeed a revival clavichord. I rather like it at the right volume, and the performance is more inflected than you'd expect from (eg) his Scarlatti.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 30, 2016, 08:26:01 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 30, 2016, 07:43:21 AM
Cheers, it is indeed a revival clavichord. I rather like it at the right volume, and the performance is more inflected than you'd expect from (eg) his Scarlatti.

Yes, surprisingly expressive for Kirkpatrick, I would say.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Parsifal on November 30, 2016, 08:52:21 AM
I have Colin Tilney's recording of WTC I on Clavichord (hyperion) but never found time to listen to it. Worth it?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 30, 2016, 11:53:32 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 30, 2016, 08:52:21 AM
I have Colin Tilney's recording of WTC I on Clavichord (hyperion) but never found time to listen to it. Worth it?
I don't know, I haven't heard it. But I can say that his Bk 2, which is a harpsichord performance, really does bear repeated listening.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: KevinP on November 30, 2016, 03:17:55 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 29, 2016, 09:32:42 PM
Maybe you'll find this an interesting read... it includes some fine suggestions:

http://www.bsherman.net/WTC.htm

Very helpful overview. Thanks!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on November 30, 2016, 05:31:35 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 30, 2016, 07:43:21 AM
Cheers, it is indeed a revival clavichord. I rather like it at the right volume, and the performance is more inflected than you'd expect from (eg) his Scarlatti.

I just realized Kirkpatrick's recording of the 2- and 3-Part Inventions/Sinfonias is included in the Arkiv Analogue Recordings box. It made absolutely no impression on me when I listened to it a couple of weeks ago, but I think my mood at that moment was a contributing factor.  The recording data say the Inventions were recorded  in August 1960 on a Dolmetsch clavichord made in 1932.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 01, 2016, 05:39:05 AM
I decided to compare the D Major set in B1 tonight. Leonhardt, Wilson, Gilbert, Watchorn and Levin. These are all enjoyable performances. I finished with Feinberg and Crossland. I actually found Feinberg to be a bit trying and Crossland better in the prelude. However, I came away thinking that the piano is at a disadvantage when it comes to some of this music. I'm not exactly sure why. The piano is muddy. And subtle changes/hesitations with the Harpsichord really mean a lot. It depends on the piece though. I just noticed Jaroslav Tuma B1 buried in my collection. Should I be paying attention to this recording? Also Christiane Jaccottet...Scott Ross never did a WTC?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 01, 2016, 08:37:48 AM
Quote from: milk on December 01, 2016, 05:39:05 AM
I decided to compare the D Major set in B1 tonight. Leonhardt, Wilson, Gilbert, Watchorn and Levin. These are all enjoyable performances. I finished with Feinberg and Crossland. I actually found Feinberg to be a bit trying and Crossland better in the prelude. However, I came away thinking that the piano is at a disadvantage when it comes to some of this music. I'm not exactly sure why. The piano is muddy. And subtle changes/hesitations with the Harpsichord really mean a lot. It depends on the piece though. I just noticed Jaroslav Tuma B1 buried in my collection. Should I be paying attention to this recording? Also Christiane Jaccottet...Scott Ross never did a WTC?

I have Tüma's Bk 2 and although on paper it ticks all the right boxes I find it totally uncharismatic. This could be just a reflection of my mood each time I've heard it, though I have tried several times. Ross did a WTC, but I don't think it's one of his more successful recordings, it's too sewing machine at least in Bk 2. Jaccottet is quite interest to hear, the problem is to know whether it isn't just "outclassed" by others. It's not really revealing like Leonhardt, Wilson, Asperen, Weiss,  Belder, Egarr,  Tilney or even  Rousset or Dantone  and Gilbert and Moroney and Koopman.

I hope someone will show me I'm wrong about Jaccottet.

Opinions on Landowska appreciated. She reminds me of Schweitzer when she's at her best. Reverential, like music for a solemn procession. She's not always at her best IMO in those post war recordings.

Edwin Fischer also is worth thinking about maybe - you know, a sort of landmark recording though in truth I've never seen what the fuss is about in his WTC.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 01, 2016, 08:50:21 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 30, 2016, 05:31:35 PM
I just realized Kirkpatrick's recording of the 2- and 3-Part Inventions/Sinfonias is included in the Arkiv Analogue Recordings box. It made absolutely no impression on me when I listened to it a couple of weeks ago, but I think my mood at that moment was a contributing factor.  The recording data say the Inventions were recorded  in August 1960 on a Dolmetsch clavichord made in 1932.

I think he's an acquired taste. I appreciate the emphasis on very long musical lines and most of all a certain strange feeling of fantasy which he sometimes captures, like a vivid and lively dream. I like Kirkpatrick's late recordings much more that the earlier ones. Try his second recording of the Scarlatti sonatas for another example (don't confuse it with the first recording.)

By the way, Tuma recorded the inventions on a clavichord , an authentic one, I think very well.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 01, 2016, 10:46:15 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31wbGKr40WL.jpg)


Blandine Verlet's WTC 2 is marked by three things.

1. Humanity. It's as if she has the gift of taking the music and using it as a vehicle to create a tender, passionate  sketch in sound. No one could ever say that Verlet's WTC 2 is abstract music - to my ears, she gives us a Bach who is expressive like Froberger or Chopin.

2.  Inner life. The voices are given their own phrasing and rhythms for so that on listening I am aware of the intricacy of Bach's textures, and that makes the performances full of life. It made me think that Bach's art is about weaving sonic threads, and I wonder if anyone who works in plastic arts has  also focussed on exploring textures.

3. Classicism. As in her Louis Couperin, the voices all sing from the same hymn sheet at all times, they listen to each other and respond like in a Mozart string quartet, there is never a sense of isolation, of contradiction.

Are these features strengths, weaknesses or merely features?  Does her vision send us hurling into into Bach's world picture? Does it offer us a glimpse into some truth about our own? I suspect that in both cases no: that Bach was intending something more abstract and that our own world has seen through the illusion of concord and harmony.

Does anyone know who made her harpsichord?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 02, 2016, 01:55:27 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 01, 2016, 10:46:15 PM

Blandine Verlet's WTC 2 ..

Does anyone know who made her harpsichord?

Johannes Ruckers 1624, now in Musee D'Unterlinden in Colmar, France.,
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on December 02, 2016, 01:58:43 AM
Maybe the most famous harpsichord ever. Is there a list which recordings were made on it?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 02, 2016, 02:25:29 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 02, 2016, 01:55:27 AM
Johannes Ruckers 1624, now in Musee D'Unterlinden in Colmar, France.,

Just what I thought, the same as for her Louis Couperin.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 02, 2016, 03:41:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 01, 2016, 10:46:15 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31wbGKr40WL.jpg)


Blandine Verlet's WTC 2 is marked by three things.

1. Humanity. It's as if she has the gift of taking the music and using it as a vehicle to create a tender, passionate  sketch in sound. No one could ever say that Verlet's WTC 2 is abstract music - to my ears, she gives us a Bach who is expressive like Froberger or Chopin.

2.  Inner life. The voices are given their own phrasing and rhythms for so that on listening I am aware of the intricacy of Bach's textures, and that makes the performances full of life. It made me think that Bach's art is about weaving sonic threads, and I wonder if anyone who works in plastic arts has  also focussed on exploring textures.

3. Classicism. As in her Louis Couperin, the voices all sing from the same hymn sheet at all times, they listen to each other and respond like in a Mozart string quartet, there is never a sense of isolation, of contradiction.

Are these features strengths, weaknesses or merely features?  Does her vision send us hurling into into Bach's world picture? Does it offer us a glimpse into some truth about our own? I suspect that in both cases no: that Bach was intending something more abstract and that our own world has seen through the illusion of concord and harmony.

Does anyone know who made her harpsichord?
I always like when people talk of textures. In a way, I think this is missing sometimes on the piano, but I don't know if I'm correct. The piano makes round sounds.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 02, 2016, 04:12:55 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 30, 2016, 08:52:21 AM
I have Colin Tilney's recording of WTC I on Clavichord (hyperion) but never found time to listen to it. Worth it?

It is relatively slow and introvert. Only subtle agogic rubato. His "normal" articulation is a close non legato, which - on a clavichord with its slowly acting damper device - most often sounds as proper legato. Maybe these things will appeal to you. If you are not used to the sound of a clavichord, you may need some adaption. Keep the dynamics moderate.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 02, 2016, 04:16:46 AM
Quote from: milk on December 01, 2016, 05:39:05 AM
I just noticed Jaroslav Tuma B1 buried in my collection. Should I be paying attention to this recording?

It is long time since I listened to Tuma. Recall him as being expressive and poetic. Will have to revisit the set.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on December 02, 2016, 09:24:13 PM
If you ahve not yet, have a look (listen) to Gavrilov here. I really like his approach a great deal--historically defensible or not. (It is not the only approach I like, but one of the approaches I like.) I think he follows in the tradition of Feinberg and (S) Richter in his legato playing, leisurely tempos, and highly personal interpretations. I am currently playing No. 7 myself (some very strange fingerings--or at least the ones I've devised), and I find myself frequently coming back to his rendering here for inspiration. His commentary is quite interesting as well.

Johanna, who follows him--her playing leaves me cold (although she IS cute!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpnFE6K6lws
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 02, 2017, 12:07:45 PM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 21, 2016, 10:11:13 PM

Have you heard his [Kenneth Weiss's] recordings of the Goldbergs and Partitas?

I have, and to his other recordings. I'm coming to the conclusion that Weiss is at his best live. Fortunately we have three live recordings, the WTC, the Goldbergs and one of English music called Cleare and Cloudy.

I'll try to write something about what's going on in the partitas, he has ideas.

I think generally from the point of view of voicing, Bach's polyphony,  he is pretty imaginative.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2017, 07:44:27 AM
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Tuma-B01a%5B2HP-4CD%5D.jpg)

Jaroslav Tuma's WTC 2. He uses all sorts of rubato and ornamentation and dynamics. But somehow, the performances don't effect me.  I find the performances cold. And yet full of expressive touches.

Sometimes I forget a performance is expressive if and only if it causes an emotional response in the listener - it's not about the way it's played, it's about the way it's perceived.

Note the move to the passive voice in that last sentence - the pull to making generalised, universal statements about the effects of a performance on a listener is an easy trap to fall into. I'm not sure how to justify it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on February 25, 2017, 07:56:24 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2017, 07:44:27 AM

Sometimes I forget a performance is expressive if and only if it causes an emotional response in the listener - it's not about the way it's played, it's about the way it's perceived.

Note the move to the passive voice in that last sentence - the pull to making generalised, universal statements about the effects of a performance on a listener is an easy trap to fall into. I'm not sure how to justify it.

If I understand you correctly, you say, that a performance is expressive to you, if you respond to it, and inexpressive, if you do not respond to it. And that there is no objective way to describe expressivity.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2017, 08:39:00 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 25, 2017, 07:56:24 AM
If I understand you correctly, you say, that a performance is expressive to you, if you respond to it, and inexpressive, if you do not respond to it. And that there is no objective way to describe expressivity.

Give me some time to mull over this subtle question. Another example where a performer seems to use lots of techniques prima facie designed to make the music expressive but who doesn't elicit an emotional response from me is David Cates, in his Froberger especially.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on February 25, 2017, 10:30:34 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2017, 08:39:00 AM
Give me some time to mull over this subtle question. Another example where a performer seems to use lots of techniques prima facie designed to make the music expressive but who doesn't elicit an emotional response from me is David Cates, in his Froberger especially.

I do not know his Froberger, but I feel exactly what you describe, about his French suites.

A propos Froberger I recently - prompted by your words in another thread - acquired Glüxam's CD, and I find it very expressive, because it evokes a strong emotional response from me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2017, 10:38:08 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 25, 2017, 10:30:34 AM
I do not know his Froberger, but I feel exactly what you describe, about his French suites.

A propos Froberger I recently - prompted by your words in another thread - acquired Glüxam's CD, and I find it very expressive, because it evokes a strong emotional response from me.

yes I agree, Glüxam was a great find by Gordo. I still need to get round to listening to his Bach.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on February 25, 2017, 11:37:19 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2017, 10:38:08 AM
yes I agree, Glüxam was a great find by Gordo. I still need to get round to listening to his Bach.

Yes, Gordo was the first to mention this recording, but you were the first to comment it - even if only briefly.

Glüxam's Goldbergs are on my wish-list.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on February 25, 2017, 01:42:37 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 25, 2017, 11:37:19 AM
Yes, Gordo was the first to mention this recording, but you were the first to comment it - even if only briefly.

Glüxam's Goldbergs are on my wish-list.

If you can find it, his Duphly is mighty fine as well.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on February 25, 2017, 01:53:40 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on February 25, 2017, 01:42:37 PM
If you can find it, his Duphly is mighty fine as well.

Thanks, will try.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on March 30, 2017, 05:58:51 AM
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/Mar/Bach_WTC_CD176.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/Mar/Bach_WTC_CD176.htm)
This review of Mordecai Shehori is instriguing. I wonder if anyone has heard it?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 30, 2017, 06:23:27 AM
Quote from: milk on March 30, 2017, 05:58:51 AM
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/Mar/Bach_WTC_CD176.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/Mar/Bach_WTC_CD176.htm)
This review of Mordecai Shehori is instriguing. I wonder if anyone has heard it?

Cool-sounding! It's on youtube (which probably means it's also on Spotify)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5zSJy0neuI&list=PL3YcWEpXB2sDx7Eg89LSIdIehT6vgkb_D&index=1
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on March 30, 2017, 07:03:50 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 30, 2017, 06:23:27 AM
Cool-sounding! It's on youtube (which probably means it's also on Spotify)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5zSJy0neuI&list=PL3YcWEpXB2sDx7Eg89LSIdIehT6vgkb_D&index=1
I'm enjoying it too. It's not extreme sounding to me. I was expecting something like Feinberg but it doesn't go that far. But it is a different approach. It has some nice touches.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on March 31, 2017, 12:12:44 AM
Quote from: milk on March 30, 2017, 07:03:50 AM
I'm enjoying it too. It's not extreme sounding to me. I was expecting something like Feinberg but it doesn't go that far. But it is a different approach. It has some nice touches.

Have a listen to his Chopin etudes.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on March 31, 2017, 02:57:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 31, 2017, 12:12:44 AM
Have a listen to his Chopin etudes.
I'll check it out. Thanks.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 04, 2017, 09:08:02 AM
I think I'm suffering from some kind of malady. I'm seriously addicted to WTC. This has recently gotten worse. It started with a few weeks of a few comparisons before bed and now it has snowballed into constant fixation. I've been cajoling my wife but maybe she's had enough of WTC. I went through a period where I listened mostly to harpsichord. Recently the Feinberg recordings have caused a deepening mental stutter with the piano. Tonight I decided to make a mix-and-match "historical/romantic" piano playlist. I downloaded performances by Walter Gieseking, Edwin Fischer, Mieczyslaw Horszowski, and Sviatoslav Richter to create one full book II. Incidentally, I can't seem to enjoy Turek much these days, let a lone Gould. Who else seems eccentric on piano? I want weird clanky old recordings. But I've got to get back to cembalo...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2017, 10:34:05 AM
Quote from: milk on April 04, 2017, 09:08:02 AM
I think I'm suffering from some kind of malady. I'm seriously addicted to WTC. This has recently gotten worse. It started with a few weeks of a few comparisons before bed and now it has snowballed into constant fixation. I've been cajoling my wife but maybe she's had enough of WTC. I went through a period where I listened mostly to harpsichord. Recently the Feinberg recordings have caused a deepening mental stutter with the piano. Tonight I decided to make a mix-and-match "historical/romantic" piano playlist. I downloaded performances by Walter Gieseking, Edwin Fischer, Mieczyslaw Horszowski, and Sviatoslav Richter to create one full book II. Incidentally, I can't seem to enjoy Turek much these days, let a lone Gould. Who else seems eccentric on piano? I want weird clanky old recordings. But I've got to get back to cembalo...
Maurice Cole, Arthur Loesser, Maria Yudina, Emil Naomoff, John Lewis, Jorg Demus maybe.

I assume you've heard Landowska.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 04, 2017, 05:44:27 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 04, 2017, 10:34:05 AM
Maurice Cole, Arthur Loesser, Maria Yudina, Emil Naomoff, John Lewis, Jorg Demus maybe.

I assume you've heard Landowska.
Yes. And Demus live. That was the best concert I've ever experienced. But I haven't been to that many.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 04, 2017, 07:50:11 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 04, 2017, 10:34:05 AM
Maurice Cole, Arthur Loesser, Maria Yudina, Emil Naomoff, John Lewis, Jorg Demus maybe.

I assume you've heard Landowska.
I'm going to pick up some of these. I had Landowska on vinyl. Lost it years ago along with my record player.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2017, 09:47:19 PM
Quote from: milk on April 04, 2017, 07:50:11 PM
I'm going to pick up some of these. I had Landowska on vinyl. Lost it years ago along with my record player.

I've been listening to some Landowska recently and I've been impressed by the liveliness of the voicing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 05, 2017, 03:54:36 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 04, 2017, 09:47:19 PM
I've been listening to some Landowska recently and I've been impressed by the liveliness of the voicing.
I'm revisiting Wanda. She has that quirky uniqueness. I know it's not necessarily very baroque but I appreciate the imagination. I'm surprised at how not-blown-away I am over Gieseking and Richter. I thought I'd be more impressed. I like Gieseking's Debussy. Maybe I should try Fischer more. Some of your recommendations are not easy to find as downloads. I'm trying to drift back to harpsichord. I find Leonhardt and Gilbert very pleasing. Gilbert is very clear and his instrument is a pleasure. It's not hard to see why people love Wilson but his instrument is rather noisy. Recently, I'm more sensitive to harpsichords - to their sound quality. Maybe it's because I play a lot of stuff to my wife (who is new to classical music). Some harpsichords are like Lutes and some are like electric guitars!
People haven't talked about Christine Schornsheim much around here but I'd like to recommend her. Listen to her BII E major prelude as a sample. She does something unique with the register that works rather nicely. I think I'm going to declare myself too impatient for Mr. Watchorn. Maybe I'm the only one but it's just too slow. I've spent years trying to like it. I give up. Anyway, any other candidates for romantic piano? The sound quality for Mieczyslaw Horszowski was just too bad. I don't mind tape hiss, but there's digital hums on my downloads.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 05, 2017, 04:04:00 AM
I just purchased Fischer's complete Books 1&2. I'm responding more to him than Richter or Gieseking. I also re-bought Wanda. These should be interesting listens. Somehow, I feel like WTC is in a category by itself. I want to hear every angle from the keyboard. It's too bad there isn't a good complete clavichord. Levin is quite good. But Tuma and Tilney are just too dry for me. I wish Landowska had recorded on the piano. I don't care much for the monster she plays. However, perhaps it was in the service of a greater goal we have now reached.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 05, 2017, 08:48:14 AM
Quote from: milk on April 05, 2017, 04:04:00 AM
I just purchased Fischer's complete Books 1&2. I'm responding more to him than Richter or Gieseking. I also re-bought Wanda. These should be interesting listens. Somehow, I feel like WTC is in a category by itself. I want to hear every angle from the keyboard. It's too bad there isn't a good complete clavichord. Levin is quite good. But Tuma and Tilney are just too dry for me. I wish Landowska had recorded on the piano. I don't care much for the monster she plays. However, perhaps it was in the service of a greater goal we have now reached.

Any opinion on the recordings by Ivo Janssen or Belder?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 05, 2017, 05:37:37 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on April 05, 2017, 08:48:14 AM
Any opinion on the recordings by Ivo Janssen or Belder?
I haven't heard those. Someone around here must have a conclusion. Fischer is great. I managed to get a hold of Demus. His WTC is spectacular. I don't know why he's not more popular. They should reissue his WTC, at least on iTunes.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 06, 2017, 01:37:21 AM
It is no great leap or revelation to say that, in the end, Leonhardt is one recording no lover of WTC should be without (just listening to Leonhardt's B-flat from book II - what a dream! The prelude takes a strange turn! The fugue + Prelude is of a piece). Maybe some would quibble with the idea of an essential? I'm not sure what else would be on the list of essentials if we allow such a list. I guess Feinberg if one wants to run the gamut, or Fischer/Demus will stand in for Feinberg in a pinch. Actually, Demus should get more respect on his own. I have to say that Gilbert is full of life, joy, depth of feeling, decisiveness, etc.; he really expresses love of the music. The recording/instrument is also very pleasing. I would not hesitate to recommend Gilbert to people approaching the music for the first time.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on April 06, 2017, 01:46:29 AM
Demus was never on CD, was it? I have his Book 2 on LP but unfortunately I have not been able to play LPs for years (can't be bothered to restore the setup and get a pre-amp) and even the LPs were not so easy to find, as far as I remember.
Feinberg I cannot find on CDs in my price range either...

There were about five pretty good Austrian pianists born around 1930. Only one of them, Brendel, is still really famous and his discography bountiful. Then probably Gulda, but Badura-Skoda, Demus and Klien have all but vanished from the Radar and most of their recordings were/are not distributed all that well although Badura-Skoda and Demus were also pioneers of historical pianos.


(Edwin Fischer and S. Richter are fortunately WTC staples that were hardly ever out of the catalogue.)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 06, 2017, 02:11:54 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 06, 2017, 01:46:29 AM
Demus was never on CD, was it? I have his Book 2 on LP but unfortunately I have not been able to play LPs for years (can't be bothered to restore the setup and get a pre-amp) and even the LPs were not so easy to find, as far as I remember.
Feinberg I cannot find on CDs in my price range either...

There were about five pretty good Austrian pianists born around 1930. Only one of them, Brendel, is still really famous and his discography bountiful. Then probably Gulda, but Badura-Skoda, Demus and Klien have all but vanished from the Radar and most of their recordings were/are not distributed all that well although Badura-Skoda and Demus were also pioneers of historical pianos.


(Edwin Fischer and S. Richter are fortunately WTC staples that were hardly ever out of the catalogue.)

Go to https://archive.org/ (https://archive.org/) for all kinds of stuff. Demus is there - both books. Search "Demus Bach." I'm sure there's a treasure trove of all kinds of stuff from LP that never made it to the digital age. I believe Demus is nowhere to be found on CD. Did Badura-skoda record Bach? I have a great recording of him playing Debussy on an historical piano. Which Klein is that? It seems that Demus is most famous for his accompaniment on Lieder...Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau...I've never heard it. I have to say that the Demus concert I attended was so memorable. Well, it was profound. The only other concert I experienced that really blew me away was Masaaki Suzuki on the organ (here in Japan). 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on April 06, 2017, 02:49:29 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 06, 2017, 01:46:29 AM
There were about five pretty good Austrian pianists born around 1930. Only one of them, Brendel, is still really famous and his discography bountiful. Then probably Gulda, but Badura-Skoda, Demus and Klien have all but vanished from the Radar and most of their recordings were/are not distributed all that well although Badura-Skoda and Demus were also pioneers of historical pianos.

Yes, and many (including you) forget to add Ingrid Haebler to that list.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 06, 2017, 02:53:26 AM
Quote from: FideLeo on January 18, 2011, 04:24:15 AM
Another performance of BWV 878, this time on a Silbermann fortepiano.  The original poster thought it was performed by Robert Levin, which is probably incorrect information.  If I were to venture a guess, this would be from Daniel Chorzempa's set for Philips (OOP) which also has a mixed instrumentarium consisting of chamber organs, harpsichords, clavichords and a fortepiano.

http://www.youtube.com/v/NKhkCkNVUVE

 
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal/Chorzempa-K01%5BPhilips%5D.jpg)
This peaks my interest. The performance here tickles my fancy. But it's not easy to find this one. Anyone have the complete set?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on April 06, 2017, 03:06:29 AM
Quote from: milk on April 06, 2017, 02:11:54 AM
Did Badura-Skoda record Bach?

He recorded Bach's partitas twice:

1) on piano for Westminster 1951..

2) on harpsichord for Astrée 1987.

Neither of these recordings are mandatory, I think.

He also for Westminster recorded the concerto BWV 1053 and (with Jörg Demus 2.pianist, conductor Kurt Redel) concertos BWV 1060 and 1061 on piano about 1960.

There is also a Westminster recording (which I do not know) from the 1950es containing:

Toccata C minor, BWV 911,
Italian Concerto in F major, BWV 971,
Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue D minor, BWV 903,
Concerto in D minor after Marcello, BWV 974

Badura-Skoda discography on his home page:

http://www.badura-skoda.cc/en/discography_1_b.html
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on April 06, 2017, 03:11:26 AM
Quote from: milk on April 06, 2017, 02:53:26 AM
This peaks my interest. The performance here tickles my fancy. But it's not easy to find this one. Anyone have the complete set?

Yes, I do. A rather good set. Particularly because of the items he plays on the clavichord. Interesting also to compare to the equally fine Levin set, their choice of instrument e.g.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 06, 2017, 03:55:43 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 06, 2017, 03:11:26 AM
Yes, I do. A rather good set. Particularly because of the items he plays on the clavichord. Interesting also to compare to the equally fine Levin set, their choice of instrument e.g.
I like Levin a lot. He's sprite and no-fuss while pulling off some stunning performances. Have you ever heard of Joan Benson? ...on the clavichord?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 06, 2017, 03:58:50 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 06, 2017, 03:06:29 AM
He recorded Bach's partitas twice:

1) on piano for Westminster 1951..

2) on harpsichord for Astrée 1987.

Neither of these recordings are mandatory, I think.

He also for Westminster recorded the concerto BWV 1053 and (with Jörg Demus 2.pianist, conductor Kurt Redel) concertos BWV 1060 and 1061 on piano about 1960.

There is also a Westminster recording (which I do not know) from the 1950es containing:

Toccata C minor, BWV 911,
Italian Concerto in F major, BWV 971,
Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue D minor, BWV 903,
Concerto in D minor after Marcello, BWV 974

Badura-Skoda discography on his home page:

http://www.badura-skoda.cc/en/discography_1_b.html
I've yet to find a recoding of the partitas on piano that held my attention. Well, I suppose I should change forums. Maybe the bungalow. But I'm still interested in an outstanding piano recording of the partitas. Or maybe the clavichord. I know Troeger did it but I don't really get him.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on April 06, 2017, 04:04:34 AM
Quote from: milk on April 06, 2017, 03:55:43 AM
I like Levin a lot. He's sprite and no-fuss while pulling off some stunning performances. Have you ever heard of Joan Benson? ...on the clavichord?

No, did she record the WTC?

Googling her I find that her main interests are C P E Bach, an interest I do not share that much.
Also her recordings are old and only a few have been released on CD.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on April 06, 2017, 04:11:38 AM
Quote from: milk on April 06, 2017, 03:58:50 AM
I've yet to find a recoding of the partitas on piano that held my attention. Well, I suppose I should change forums. Maybe the bungalow. But I'm still interested in an outstanding piano recording of the partitas. Or maybe the clavichord. I know Troeger did it but I don't really get him.

Wim Winters may perhaps interest you;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE-0Ux1PYiU

Concerning piano versions of the partita's - try

Wolfgang Rübsam

Ivo Janssen

Virginia Black

if you haven't heard them already.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 06, 2017, 04:26:07 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 06, 2017, 04:11:38 AM
Wim Winters may perhaps interest you;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE-0Ux1PYiU

Concerning piano versions of the partita's - try

Wolfgang Rübsam

Ivo Janssen

Virginia Black

if you haven't heard them already.
I have Rubsam. I will try it again. This Winters sounds great! Wow!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 07, 2017, 05:42:01 PM
Anyone has a recommendation for a recording that uses the well tempered system that Bach had in mind?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: kishnevi on April 07, 2017, 05:43:47 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 07, 2017, 05:42:01 PM
Anyone has a recommendation for a recording that uses the well tempered system that Bach had in mind?

Has anyone other than Egarr made such a recording?
(leaving aside the question of whether the system he used is actually one Bach might have used)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 07, 2017, 05:46:02 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 07, 2017, 05:43:47 PM
Has anyone other than Egarr made such a recording?
(leaving aside the question of whether the system he used is actually one Bach might have used)
maybe Watchorn
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 07, 2017, 05:48:24 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 07, 2017, 05:43:47 PM
Has anyone other than Egarr made such a recording?
(leaving aside the question of whether the system he used is actually one Bach might have used)
What specifically is the system that Bach had in mind?

Also is there any recording that uses a particular well tempered system of Bach's time? Other than the Egarr as mentioned before?

I found this article awhile back that seems pretty informative.

http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~mrubinst/tuning/tuning.html

It does seem fairly obvious that if you use equal temperament other than the difference it pitch and technique the various keys seem rather pointless. Bach might as well have written them all in one key as he did in Art of Fugue.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on April 07, 2017, 07:32:07 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 07, 2017, 05:48:24 PM
What specifically is the system that Bach had in mind?

Also is there any recording that uses a particular well tempered system of Bach's time? Other than the Egarr as mentioned before?

I found this article awhile back that seems pretty informative.

http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~mrubinst/tuning/tuning.html

It does seem fairly obvious that if you use equal temperament other than the difference it pitch and technique the various keys seem rather pointless. Bach might as well have written them all in one key as he did in Art of Fugue.

Most HIP recordings typically use some sort of well temperament; I think Kirnberger III, Werckmeister, and Niedhardt are the popular ones.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 07, 2017, 10:45:45 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 07, 2017, 05:42:01 PM
Anyone has a recommendation for a recording that uses the well tempered system that Bach had in mind?
I thought they didn't know exactly and people like Bradley Lehman have an educated guess or hypothesis?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 09, 2017, 01:59:32 AM
Do I need Parmentier's WTC? Or am I just itching to buy another one? I have so many...yet...what's one more? He's received a recommendation in this thread but no great attention. Anybody heard Cooper's WTC? Edit: now I'm seeing Don Satz's reviews...not full throated endorsements.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on April 09, 2017, 03:08:36 AM
Quote from: milk on April 09, 2017, 01:59:32 AM
Do I need Parmentier's WTC? Or am I just itching to buy another one? I have so many...yet...what's one more? He's received a recommendation in this thread but no great attention. Anybody heard Cooper's WTC?

These two are not the first ones I would think of, better exists.


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 09, 2017, 04:29:34 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 09, 2017, 03:08:36 AM
These two are not the first ones I would think of, better exists.
I think I have all the great ones maybe (Wilson, Gilbert, Leonhardt, Feinberg, Fischer, Demus, Crossland, Woodward, Watchorn). I don't know if it's compulsiveness or a sincere desire to see where else the music could go. Probably the former. WTC is like the sun and the rain. Funny, I know a local harpsichordist in Osaka who gives Bach concerts all the time and never plays any WTC. Or AOF...How can you be a Bach lover and keyboard player without them?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 09, 2017, 04:44:47 AM
Quote from: milk on April 09, 2017, 04:29:34 AM
I think I have all the great ones maybe (Wilson, Gilbert, Leonhardt, Feinberg, Fischer, Demus, Crossland, Woodward, Watchorn).

Maybe think of adding Asperen, Egarr, Weiss,  possibly Verlet.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 09, 2017, 04:54:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 09, 2017, 04:44:47 AM
Maybe think of adding Asperen, Egarr, Weiss,  possibly Verlet.
Weiss is kind of new for me. What is special about Weiss? I watched a video performance of his and it seems good. But I couldn't form enough of an opinion to want to buy it. Egarr...mixed reviews of Egarr? I'm listening to Sergio Vartolo's AOF at the moment and wondering why he hasn't done WTC. I guess it's quite a commitment and one needs a bit of support to go through it. How do you feel about Watchorn?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 09, 2017, 07:58:49 AM
Quote from: milk on April 09, 2017, 04:54:49 AM
Weiss is kind of new for me. What is special about Weiss? I watched a video performance of his and it seems good. But I couldn't form enough of an opinion to want to buy it. Egarr...mixed reviews of Egarr? I'm listening to Sergio Vartolo's AOF at the moment and wondering why he hasn't done WTC. I guess it's quite a commitment and one needs a bit of support to go through it. How do you feel about Watchorn?

I wrote some comments on Weiss somewhere on on GMG. Rather poetic comments if I remember right. Probably embarrassing to see them again.

Egarr is good, very good. Again I'm sure I've made some more detailed comments about it somewhere on this website.

Watchorn is clunky.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 09, 2017, 08:07:22 AM
I got a hold of some of Koroliov's WTC (mostly I). This is really sensitive and beautiful stuff. His e minor and f minor preludes are really serene and almost chilling. I actually ended up having problems with Shehori. Somehow I expected Shehori to be more like this. I'm not a pianist but I wonder if the F major is particularly difficult to play. Shehori simply sounds like he can't quite do it. I know that's got to be untrue. But it sounds like a mess. Anyway, Shehori probably has his moments but overall doesn't impress me like Koroliov.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 09, 2017, 08:11:11 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 09, 2017, 07:58:49 AM
I wrote some comments on Weiss somewhere on on GMG. Rather poetic comments if I remember right. Probably embarrassing to see them again.

Egarr is good, very good. Again I'm sure I've made some more detailed comments about it somewhere on this website.

Watchorn is clunky.
I should check these out. My reservations came from this comment by Bulldog, "Egarr is not highly nuanced." But that's just one opinion. I'll try to look up the Weiss comments. I know I have too much WTC (if it's possible). I'm interested in anything that stands out though.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 09, 2017, 08:31:54 AM
Quote from: milk on April 09, 2017, 08:11:11 AM
"Egarr is not highly nuanced.

This is not correct.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bluto32 on April 09, 2017, 09:07:14 AM
I have Richter (Salzburg recording), Ashkenazy, Desenclos (organ) and enjoy all three enormously. If I could keep only one, it would be Richter: it has a real atmosphere that is hard to describe. I bought the 2009 Sony remasterings - see reply 1105 on page 56 of this thread - and am happy enough with the sound quality. I've toyed with the idea of acquiring another WTC set, but haven't yet found any clips I like more than what I already have...

Bluto
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on April 09, 2017, 10:01:07 AM
If you think you might like different instruments try one volume of Levin's on Hänssler who uses harpsichord, clavichord, organ and in the second book also fortepiano. (Chorzempa did a similar thing earlier but his recording is not easy to find.)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 09, 2017, 03:18:44 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 09, 2017, 10:01:07 AM
If you think you might like different instruments try one volume of Levin's on Hänssler who uses harpsichord, clavichord, organ and in the second book also fortepiano. (Chorzempa did a similar thing earlier but his recording is not easy to find.)
This Levin recording is one of the first ones I owned. I got into Bach late in life. The first recording one falls in love with is always special, no? So, I have a special fondness for Levin. He's vigorous. His panoply of instruments keep it entertaining and fresh and creative. It's a festival for the ear. I wish I could score the Chorzempa. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on April 10, 2017, 03:07:05 PM
Quote from: milk on April 09, 2017, 03:18:44 PM
This Levin recording is one of the first ones I owned. I got into Bach late in life. The first recording one falls in love with is always special, no? So, I have a special fondness for Levin. He's vigorous. His panoply of instruments keep it entertaining and fresh and creative. It's a festival for the ear. I wish I could score the Chorzempa.

Speaking of Bach on Fortepianos, what do you make of Genzoh Takehisa's recordings on Silbermann Fortepianos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqcaJ0k2cHU
He also made a CD.

My impression from the videos (which are live) are just "crash, crash, crash" with not much in between, but the CD's sound interesting. Quite a shame they're hard to get outside of Japan.


By the way, to be more on-topic, I found that he also made a WTC recording on harpsichord (here, a Zell copy) and Fortepiano (Silbermann again).
http://www.kojimarokuon.com/disc/ALCD1165.html

Really, this label could have lots of promising stuff on it, if you have enough patience to navigate the poorly designed Japanese website. But I haven't found much that intruiged me save for T. Wantanabe's Sweelinck on it.
http://www.kojimarokuon.com/releaseinfo.html

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on April 10, 2017, 10:28:26 PM
Any takers on Christophe Rousset's WTC? :)

One of the most significant (and surprising) new cycles around IMO...



[asin]B01B7PALKU[/asin][asin]B00F0TQPNC[/asin]

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 11, 2017, 12:48:02 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on April 10, 2017, 03:07:05 PM
Speaking of Bach on Fortepianos, what do you make of Genzoh Takehisa's recordings on Silbermann Fortepianos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqcaJ0k2cHU
He also made a CD.

My impression from the videos (which are live) are just "crash, crash, crash" with not much in between, but the CD's sound interesting. Quite a shame they're hard to get outside of Japan.


By the way, to be more on-topic, I found that he also made a WTC recording on harpsichord (here, a Zell copy) and Fortepiano (Silbermann again).
http://www.kojimarokuon.com/disc/ALCD1165.html

Really, this label could have lots of promising stuff on it, if you have enough patience to navigate the poorly designed Japanese website. But I haven't found much that intruiged me save for T. Wantanabe's Sweelinck on it.
http://www.kojimarokuon.com/releaseinfo.html

Genzoh Takehisa's doing Bk 2 of WTC on piano, Bk 1 on harpsichord. He seems to have only recorded a bit from each book.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 11, 2017, 02:42:45 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on April 10, 2017, 03:07:05 PM
Speaking of Bach on Fortepianos, what do you make of Genzoh Takehisa's recordings on Silbermann Fortepianos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqcaJ0k2cHU
He also made a CD.

My impression from the videos (which are live) are just "crash, crash, crash" with not much in between, but the CD's sound interesting. Quite a shame they're hard to get outside of Japan.


By the way, to be more on-topic, I found that he also made a WTC recording on harpsichord (here, a Zell copy) and Fortepiano (Silbermann again).
http://www.kojimarokuon.com/disc/ALCD1165.html

Really, this label could have lots of promising stuff on it, if you have enough patience to navigate the poorly designed Japanese website. But I haven't found much that intruiged me save for T. Wantanabe's Sweelinck on it.
http://www.kojimarokuon.com/releaseinfo.html
I see his partitas on Silbermann on itunes. I did not know this guy. Hmmm...I wonder...The samples sound intriguing. I think I shall purchase this. He also seems to take things slow. I'm too curious. I can't resist.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 11, 2017, 02:53:40 AM
Quote from: Que on April 10, 2017, 10:28:26 PM
Any takers on Christophe Rousset's WTC? :)

One of the most significant (and surprising) new cycles around IMO...



[asin]B01B7PALKU[/asin][asin]B00F0TQPNC[/asin]

Q

Why surprising?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 11, 2017, 02:57:13 AM
Quote from: Que on April 10, 2017, 10:28:26 PM
Any takers on Christophe Rousset's WTC? :)

One of the most significant (and surprising) new cycles around IMO...



[asin]B01B7PALKU[/asin][asin]B00F0TQPNC[/asin]

Q
You know, I can't resist this either. The samples do sound very exuberant. And the instrument also is attractive. OK. My last purchase of the month!!!!! Postscript: why did I not see this recording before? Rousset is muscular, grand, poetic, dramatic...I'm just up to the 7th in B1 but I think this will be a favorite. Let's see what he does with BII. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on April 11, 2017, 05:24:25 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 11, 2017, 12:48:02 AM
Genzoh Takehisa's doing Bk 2 of WTC on piano, Bk 1 on harpsichord. He seems to have only recorded a bit from each book.

I just listened to samples, and it's marvelously quirky. The c-major prelude sounds like some kind of toccata from Kapsberger on a lute. Interesting, and playful tempo choices.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 11, 2017, 06:35:47 AM
Quote from: Que on April 10, 2017, 10:28:26 PM
Any takers on Christophe Rousset's WTC? :)

One of the most significant (and surprising) new cycles around IMO...



[asin]B01B7PALKU[/asin][asin]B00F0TQPNC[/asin]

Q

I purchased them immediately after the releases. Great performance.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 11, 2017, 07:54:54 AM
Quote from: Que on April 10, 2017, 10:28:26 PM
Any takers on Christophe Rousset's WTC? :)

[asin]B00F0TQPNC[/asin]


Q

No fancy stuff. Extraordinarily ordinary. The quintessence of ordinariness. He makes me think of Gulda's Beethoven.

Good sound engineering, nice instrument.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on April 11, 2017, 05:15:46 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 11, 2017, 07:54:54 AM
No fancy stuff. Extraordinarily ordinary. The quintessence of ordinariness. He makes me think of Gulda's Beethoven.

Good sound engineering, nice instrument.

Same. Beautiful Ruckers, great sound. Liked it, got bored, put it down. Too busy listening to Leonhardt, Rubsam, Asperen, and Verlet to ever pick it up again.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 11, 2017, 07:29:06 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on April 11, 2017, 05:15:46 PM
Same. Beautiful Ruckers, great sound. Liked it, got bored, put it down. Too busy listening to Leonhardt, Rubsam, Asperen, and Verlet to ever pick it up again.

I haven't listened to Verlet. I will check it out. Thank you. While I love the recording by Leon, I like Belder as well. But his recording is not flamboyant or idiosyncratic.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 11, 2017, 09:36:15 PM
I listened to Rousset play the second book again last night. I must say, the harpsichord sounds wonderful! The music does sound good on Flemish instruments like this, and the sound engineer deserves a pay rise for capturing it so well.

The performances are on the whole unsurprising - mainstream HIP - as far as I can see. Über mainstream HIP.

The booklet essay is particularly illuminating on his approach. He says that, because Bach has given no indication about the character of the music, he has concluded that the pieces in WTC 2 are abstract, and that they demand a neutral approach. He says he hopes that he has, nevertheless, managed to make them sound humane. Rousset's little essay is well worth reading.

When it was released, I was hoping that Rousset's experience in opera would inspire him to give a particularly dramatic account of the music, lyrical, full of fantasy and passionate intensity.

But no.

Nevertheless there's a lot of pleasure to be had from these straight performances, I don't think the makes the music sound stiff or earth-bound.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on April 11, 2017, 09:47:29 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 11, 2017, 02:53:40 AM
Why surprising?

Quote from: Mandryka on April 11, 2017, 07:54:54 AM
No fancy stuff. Extraordinarily ordinary. The quintessence of ordinariness. He makes me think of Gulda's Beethoven.

Good sound engineering, nice instrument.
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on April 11, 2017, 05:15:46 PM
Same. Beautiful Ruckers, great sound. Liked it, got bored, put it down. Too busy listening to Leonhardt, Rubsam, Asperen, and Verlet to ever pick it up again.

Surprising because it is not what you might expect from Rousset.
This is in his matured style that I first encountered in his Louis Couperin set. It is,  in comparison to Rousset's earlier, rather dashing Bach, relatively restrained with an emotional sobriety about it, dignified. Though Rousset's virtuosic style is still there, it is more in the background.

I kindly disagree on the "boring" comment, on the contrary: these are pretty "deep" interpretations and not matter-of-fact at all.
Perhaps a bit idiosyncratic...

If anything, my biggest regret is that the recordings do not have the same luxurious sound stage as his recordings for Ambroisie.
Acoustics are a tad harsh(er) here, IMO. Though less so in Book II.

The Belder set is on the shopping list - it sounded very promising.
After that, I'm not sure how many more WTC sets I need...... ::) Though I will gladly make an exception for Léon Berben, when he gets to it... :D

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 11, 2017, 09:54:22 PM
Quote from: Que on April 11, 2017, 09:47:29 PM
Surprising because it is not what you might expect from Rousset.
This is in his matured style that I first encountered in his Louis Couperin set. It is,  in comparison to Rousset's earlier, rather dashing Bach, relatively restrained with an emotional sobriety about it, dignified. Though Rousset's virtuosic style is still there, it is more in the background.

I kindly disagree on the "boring" comment, on the contrary: these are pretty "deep" interpretations and not matter-of-fact at all.
Perhaps a bit idiosyncratic...

If anything, my biggest regret is that the recordings do not have the same luxurious sound stage as his recordings for Ambroisie.
Acoustics are a tad harsh(er) here, IMO. Though less so in Book II.

The Belder set is on the shopping list - it sounded very promising.
After that, I'm not sure how many more WTC sets I need...... ::) Though I will gladly make an exception for Léon Berben, when he gets to it... :D

Q

I just added something about the booklet essay that Rousset wrote for the second book que, I'd quite like to copy the essay here because it's interesting. I haven't heard his WTC 1, it may be very different.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 11, 2017, 10:24:19 PM
Quote from: Christophe Rousset in the booklet of his WTC2Anyone who plays the harpsichord is confronted from the earliest age with the complex and fascinating world of J. S. Bach. Budding musicians start out with the Notenbüchlein for Anna Magdalena, the little preludes and fughettas written for Wilhelm Friedemann, the two- part inventions and three-part sinfonias, before turning to the first book of the Well-Tempered Clavier. And once they have got through that they will move on to some of the pieces of the second volume.

Such was the case for me. I remember my weekly study of a prelude and fugue from the first book as unforgettable moments of discovery, and still feel the joy aroused by that technical, intellectual and musical exercise. The prel- udes represented for me the more or less intricate paths through the composer's harmonic world – the appealing little clockwork patterns that everyone knows at least from the famous C major Prelude of book I. The fugues were the superimposed parts forming ideal architectures, sometimes in three parts, when it was a good week, in four or five parts, for the most complex of them.

The joy of discovering such true gems is no less present in the second book, but the length of the pieces, the complex- ity of the structures, the boldness of the harmonic courses, the density of the textures turn them into an obstacle race. Just reading through a new piece is hard enough, with the remote keys giving rise to modulations that verge on atonality. The sheer length of the pieces makes the study of most of them a rather athletic exercise. Now that I have played all of Bach's harpsichord music – his three cycles of suites, the Clavier-Übung, his concertos and sonatas, and all of his pedagogical works – it is quite obvious to me that the second book of the Well-Tempered Clavier is a summit. And for anyone who tackles it systematically, it is a real challenge. Beyond the arduousness of the approach, the interpretation of these gems is an equally complex problem for key- board players. Indeed, Bach never gives any indication of character, and very rarely of tempo. Which does not mean they should be seen as character pieces. Everything in them seems abstract. One of the acute problems raised in this volume in particular is that of the place of the performer. The powerful gestures, the abstract purpose, the extremely intellectual, strict, inflexible forms lead one to withdraw any subjective intent, and to adopt a more respectful, neutral approach than in any other of Bach's works (except, of course, The Art of Fugue). Nevertheless, it was the same Bach who wrote the Partitas or the Goldberg Variations, with their wealth of affect and expression. Performers have to find their own way up this steep path through a dense and enchanted forest. Which is what I have attempted to do in this version. Bach often wrote "soli deo gloria" at the end of his manuscripts. This phrase could be seen as a way of identifying with God, though the composer is more likely claiming to be the instrument of a stronger will guiding his hand. But Bach, despite being Bach, was also human, and probably a great performer of his own compositions. And the performer needs to appropriate and humanise an abstract material that, without a musician willing to offer it to an audience, would remain a dead letter. It is no mean task to humanise music which is so exacting, but I have tried, and it is a remarkable experience to see the passion and the flesh begin to show through in these marble monuments. No angel sings the arias of his cantatas, nor does a deity sit at the keyboard to play a fugue. The whole of the human aspect that is central to the relation- ship between the performer and the listener needs to be addressed, even in a six-page fugue in B flat minor!

I have obviously not attempted to give an objective, encyclopaedic performance – which, to my mind, would be a vain undertak- ing. I have tried instead to find all the possible referents in Bach himself, and sometimes in his sons, in order to create contrast in the forty-eight pieces of this book.

Bach's autograph manuscript of book II is preserved in London's British Library. The basis for the present recording is however a later version of these pieces, beyond all doubt originating from Bach himself, which has reached us in a copy made by Bach's pupil (and son-in-law) Johann Christoph Altnickol. It contains numerous improvements on the text, attractive ornamentation, devel- opments of up to fifteen new bars that irresistibly enlarge the gesture and the form – so much so that the original version of the piece as it appears in the autograph manuscript is often ignored both by publish- ers and performers.

The following is a brief overview of book II . . .
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 12, 2017, 01:56:09 AM
QuoteThe whole of the human aspect that is central to the relation- ship between the performer and the listener needs to be addressed, even in a six-page fugue in B flat minor!

That's sounds like he's asking us to measure his art by BWV 891 fugue.

In my experience, extended contrapuntal music like this on harpsichord demands independent voices and a dramatic rapport among the voices, that's what it needs to give it a life which comes from the inside of the music.

I'm not totally convinced that he pulls it off. His delicate classicism is nice at the start, but I feel that as the fugue develops the music becomes too heavy, thick, airless, and it dies,  because of the dryness, the soullessness, of his voicing.

This should go without saying: I'm not sure about any of this, I may change my mind tomorrow.


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 12, 2017, 02:00:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 11, 2017, 09:36:15 PM
I listened to Rousset play the second book again last night. I must say, the harpsichord sounds wonderful! The music does sound good on Flemish instruments like this, and the sound engineer deserves a pay rise for capturing it so well.

The performances are on the whole unsurprising - mainstream HIP - as far as I can see. Über mainstream HIP.

The booklet essay is particularly illuminating on his approach. He says that, because Bach has given no indication about the character of the music, he has concluded that the pieces in WTC 2 are abstract, and that they demand a neutral approach. He says he hopes that he has, nevertheless, managed to make them sound humane. Rousset's little essay is well worth reading.

When it was released, I was hoping that Rousset's experience in opera would inspire him to give a particularly dramatic account of the music, lyrical, full of fantasy and passionate intensity.

But no.

Nevertheless there's a lot of pleasure to be had from these straight performances, I don't think the makes the music sound stiff or earth-bound.
I'm curious if you've heard Christine Schornsheim's set and what you might think? I'm finding a lot of grandeur in Rousett and a darker edge. For example, in B1's Gmajor fugue, Schornsheim is joyful and Levin is positively sunny. Rousett holds onto the notes longer and produces are more serious ominous effect. I want to say it's more religious sounding. I'm hearing a lot of character in the Rousett and, honestly, I've not found his other Bach, like his partitas, that interesting.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 12, 2017, 02:07:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 12, 2017, 01:56:09 AM
That's sounds like he's asking us to measure his art by BWV 691 fugue.

In my experience, extended contrapuntal music like this on harpsichord demands independent voices and a dramatic rapport among the voices, that's what it needs to give it a life which comes from the inside of the music.

I'm not totally convinced that he pulls it off. His delicate classicism is nice at the start, but I feel that as the fugue develops the music becomes too heavy, thick, airless, and it dies,  because of the dryness, the soullessness, of his voicing.

This should go without saying: I'm not sure about any of this, I may change my mind tomorrow.
I'm surprised by this. I do find it heavy. But far from soulless.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 12, 2017, 09:08:25 AM
Quote from: milk on April 12, 2017, 02:07:33 AM
I'm surprised by this. I do find it heavy. But far from soulless.

Well I tried again, but no. Rousset's 891 fugue is not my cup of tea. If you're still interested in quasi-romantic piano performances of Bach be sure to check Sokolov in that fugue, there was a good recorded performance from Salzburg about 5 years ago now, if you can't find it I can upload it for you.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on April 12, 2017, 09:36:43 AM
Quote from: milkb][/b]link=topic=768.msg1055005#msg1055005 date=1491991241]
I'm finding a lot of grandeur in Rou[audio][/audio]sett and a darker edge. For example, in B1's Gmajor fugue [...] Rousett holds onto the notes longer and produces are more serious ominous effect. I want to say it's more religious sounding. I'm hearing a lot of character in the Rousett and, honestly, I've not found his other Bach, like his partitas, that interesting.

Matches my own impressions. ..I called it dignified, restrained, "deep"... but it is basically the same.  :)

Whether Rousset will end up at the very top of my favourite WTC's, is another matter.....
Rousset's take is speciaI and personal but I feel Glen Wilson is not easy to match...

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 12, 2017, 04:46:35 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 12, 2017, 09:08:25 AM
Well I tried again, but no. Rousset's 891 fugue is not my cup of tea. If you're still interested in quasi-romantic piano performances of Bach be sure to check Sokolov in that fugue, there was a good recorded performance from Salzburg about 5 years ago now, if you can't find it I can upload it for you.
I'm definitely going to search out Solokov. Thanks. I find that there are so many ways to play WTC and I like to hear the romantic take on it. I'm still enjoying Demus, Fischer and Feinberg. I do not feel the same way about the French or Partitas, which seem more idiomatic to me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 12, 2017, 09:57:57 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 12, 2017, 09:08:25 AM
Well I tried again, but no. Rousset's 891 fugue is not my cup of tea. If you're still interested in quasi-romantic piano performances of Bach be sure to check Sokolov in that fugue, there was a good recorded performance from Salzburg about 5 years ago now, if you can't find it I can upload it for you.
I can find this on youtube. I like how he builds up and then takes down. It's interesting how WTC, for me, benefits from pianism in this way. I like the imagination. There are little moments of quietude and relief, and then a storm. There's a story to it almost. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 13, 2017, 12:12:49 AM
Quote from: milk on April 12, 2017, 09:57:57 PM
I can find this on youtube. I like how he builds up and then takes down. It's interesting how WTC, for me, benefits from pianism in this way. I like the imagination. There are little moments of quietude and relief, and then a storm. There's a story to it almost.

And it may be the case that the B minor fugue in book 2 really is best suited not to harpsichord but to piano or clavichord or organ.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 27, 2017, 09:17:24 AM
Good effort and novel sound.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on May 27, 2017, 11:07:35 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on May 27, 2017, 09:17:24 AM
Good effort and novel sound.

What's next??

https://www.amazon.de/Das-wohltemperierte-Aquarium-Walter-Vollmer/dp/B0000BP0M9
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on August 05, 2017, 01:18:09 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519kkIePRoL.jpg)

Dantone's may well be the most swaggering, extrovert and macho WTC2 in the universe. It's like one big muscular gesture after another. And sometimes, often, he underarticulates to boot. A bracing and lively Italian sounding harpsichord, recorded unrealistically closely.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 14, 2017, 06:50:27 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BTTLW7b8L._SY355_.jpg)
I think I underestimated this set in the past. Tilney is a great musician I think. He has his own voice to contribute, on all his endeavors. In his WTC, the music sings. It's not dry, like I once thought it was. I haven't re-listened to it all. But I'm doing it little by little. Both clavichord in B1 and harpsichord, from what I've listened to, show this singing with slower tempos, some sensitivity, maybe not an emphasis on the contrapuntal lines as much as on gracefulness and melody.     
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 19, 2017, 12:35:41 PM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/08YcSupzCL1PgF6_Eqw_escWkRYGKzCibBynA4CDE6rjNLobz_eAeFArsvH4Vh06APcyO8wN=w300)

I think this is one of the great baroque keyboard  recordings of all time. . Rubsam knows how to apply all the keyboard players' tricks to make the music expressive in a way which functions. I mean the rubato, the almost style brisé effect of the voicing, the arpeggios etc sound a natural part of the music rather than something just plonked into the music. And they make the music very moving.

But where I think he's developed since his piano recordings for Naxos is that he's found a space where he can abandon his feelings, his emotions. There's no sense at all that Rübsam is sounding off  or that he's expressing himself. The performances are both abstract and moving. This is a major, and rare, achievement!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 19, 2017, 11:50:11 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 19, 2017, 12:35:41 PM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/08YcSupzCL1PgF6_Eqw_escWkRYGKzCibBynA4CDE6rjNLobz_eAeFArsvH4Vh06APcyO8wN=w300)

I think this is one of the great baroque keyboard  recordings of all time. . Rubsam knows how to apply all the keyboard players' tricks to make the music expressive in a way which functions. I mean the rubato, the almost style brisé effect of the voicing, the arpeggios etc sound a natural part of the music rather than something just plonked into the music. And they make the music very moving.

But where I think he's developed since his piano recordings for Naxos is that he's found a space where he can abandon his feelings, his emotions. There's no sense at all that Rübsam is sounding off  or that he's expressing himself. The performances are both abstract and moving. This is a major, and rare, achievement!
How did I miss this? This is a unique recording to be sure. I wonder why this didn't make any year's-best-list. Rubsam comes up with one of the most unique recordings of WTC, both in the chosen instrument and in his style. Counterpunctual clarity may be one aspect of this but there's also this wonderful staggering of the lines, rhythmic variation, and demonstrative use of agogics. It's a wild ride even while employing pretty slow tempos - even slower than Watchorn. Have people not heard this? This should make some noise. I'm just on Book one though.   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: JCBuckley on December 20, 2017, 01:09:03 AM
From the website of Keith Hill, who made the instrument that Rübsam plays:

Wolf was interested specifically in exploring the musical communication technique called "Vacillare".  This technique may be described with the following: the singer should endeavor to sing before the beat or after the beat and never with the beat.  This technique is one of the most beautiful effects in music. He was also inspired by F. Griepenkerl's 1840 description, written when he was an old man, of how he was taught by his teacher, Nickolas Forkel, who was taught by WF Bach, who as taught by JS Bach.  He wrote, "Bach himself, his sons, and Forkel played the masterpieces with such a profound declamation that they sounded like polyphonic songs sung by individual great artist singers.  Thereby, all means of good singing were brought into use.  No Cercare , no Portamento was missing, even breathing was in all the right places.  Bach's music wants to be sung with the maximum of art." 

He was convinced when it was pointed out  how Bach, in his autograph manuscripts as verifiable from facsimilis , actually writes his idea of  "vacillare" directly into the score by writing the notes played by the right hand fractionally ahead of the notes of the left hand, when measured vertically, about 60% of the time and reverses this about 40% of the time.  You can hear for yourself how this creates a feeling of freedom in the flow of the music as the notes of the right hand sing unconstrained by the beat that otherwise would stifle all feeling of freedom in the music.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on December 20, 2017, 01:20:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 19, 2017, 12:35:41 PM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/08YcSupzCL1PgF6_Eqw_escWkRYGKzCibBynA4CDE6rjNLobz_eAeFArsvH4Vh06APcyO8wN=w300)

I think this is one of the great baroque keyboard  recordings of all time. . Rubsam knows how to apply all the keyboard players' tricks to make the music expressive in a way which functions. I mean the rubato, the almost style brisé effect of the voicing, the arpeggios etc sound a natural part of the music rather than something just plonked into the music. And they make the music very moving.

But where I think he's developed since his piano recordings for Naxos is that he's found a space where he can abandon his feelings, his emotions. There's no sense at all that Rübsam is sounding off  or that he's expressing himself. The performances are both abstract and moving. This is a major, and rare, achievement!

Quote from: milk on December 19, 2017, 11:50:11 PM
How did I miss this? This is a unique recording to be sure. I wonder why this didn't make any year's-best-list. Rubsam comes up with one of the most unique recordings of WTC, both in the chosen instrument and in his style. Counterpunctual clarity may be one aspect of this but there's also this wonderful staggering of the lines, rhythmic variation, and demonstrative use of agogics. It's a wild ride even while employing pretty slow tempos - even slower than Watchorn. Have people not heard this? This should make some noise. I'm just on Book one though.   

Listened to the samples (https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/wtc-book-2).
Sure, anyone who likes a slow, staggering and disjointed approach in which musical lines are deconstructed, will have a field day.  :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 01:51:04 AM
That may explain why, when listening to Rubsam's WTC last night, I couldn't stop myself thinking of Vartolo's Frescobaldi capriccios and Bk 2 toccatas, which is also played at a tempo you could sing, and with the sort of attention to expressive detail that's so characteristic of seconda pratica.

But really I'm not so sure that madrigalesque or cantabile is right to describe Rubsam's achievement here, because of the arpeggiation, I don't mean that where a chord is written into the music he rolls it, I mean that where the notes in the different voices collide to make a harmony, they're staggered by a millisecond to make an arpeggio of sorts. This is why I likened it to style brisé. But I've been thinking a lot about style brisé these past few days and I could be exaggerating, seeing it in places where it isn't. The fact that it's on a Lautenwerk makes you think straight away of Gaultier, Dufaut etc!

Anyway one thing for sure, this is a major landmark which I'd say is the biggest fresh idea in Bach harpsichord performance since Leonhardt's DHM Art of Fugue,
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 02:59:05 AM
Quote from: Que on December 20, 2017, 01:20:32 AM
disjointed approach
Q

I wonder if other people agree with que that the approach is disjointed (overarticulated?)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 20, 2017, 03:34:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 01:51:04 AM
Anyway one thing for sure, this is a major landmark which I'd say is the biggest fresh idea in Bach harpsichord performance since Leonhardt's DHM Art of Fugue,
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 02:59:05 AM
I wonder if other people agree with que that the approach is disjointed (overarticulated?)
I can see why people might feel this way. I want to listen to Watchorn again just to see what he does with a similarly slow pace. But anyway, I think this is the most radical Bach I've heard in a while. Unlike Batagov though, it's well thought out and, I'm guessing, defensible in terms of historical practice. I'm always up for a new side of Bach. There's no other music that is so rich and flexible and I think what Rubsam does mostly works. What I hear in this music is an lively interplay between musical lines but not disjointed (for most of it). Once upon a time I had some lute harpsichord recordings by John Paul but they never touched me the way Rubsam does. 
Even if one hates this though, I think it still deserves a review. I don't see even one review of this anywhere.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 04:24:19 AM
I think reviewers tend to review recordings they get for free from PR agencies, maybe Rübsam doesn't have a PR agent, he's distributing the recordings himself.

It was the idea that it's disjointed which I didn't quite follow - the tempos are slower than, I dunno, Dantone, but there is as far as I can see no reason not to take it at Rubsam's speed, there are no tempos directly in the score as far as I recall. The idea that it's deconstructed is interested and I need to think - it suggests that there's a preexisting construction which has been exposed, maybe the other performances hide the construction like a cabinetmaker might hide his dowels. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 20, 2017, 04:48:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 04:24:19 AM
I think reviewers tend to review recordings they get for free from PR agencies, maybe Rübsam doesn't have a PR agent, he's distributing the recordings himself.

It was the idea that it's disjointed which I didn't quite follow - the tempos are slower than, I dunno, Dantone, but there is as far as I can see no reason not to take it at Rubsam's speed, there are no tempos directly in the score as far as I recall. The idea that it's deconstructed is interested and I need to think - it suggests that there's a preexisting construction which has been exposed, maybe the other performances hide the construction like a cabinetmaker might hide his dowels.
One does get the sense that something is uncovered. I like to consider all views with Bach. Maybe it's good. I like a lot of opposite recordings where it's more of an overall effect to the music. Here, I think you've put it well about construction. That in itself is something really weird and interesting. But I also don't know if there's a better way to go with the Lautenwerk as the other recordings I have with this instrument are very same-y and a bit tiresome. Could he have done this same thing with the piano? We get extra clarity with the sound quality of the instrument. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on December 20, 2017, 05:01:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 02:59:05 AM
I wonder if other people agree with que that the approach is disjointed (overarticulated?)

My initial impression is positive.  But I want to live with the performances for a while before making a statement like yours here:

Quoteone thing for sure, this is a major landmark which I'd say is the biggest fresh idea in Bach harpsichord performance since Leonhardt's DHM Art of Fugue,

Btw, he has also recorded the AoF (at least one volume) on a lute harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 20, 2017, 07:40:53 AM
Quote from: JCBuckley on December 20, 2017, 01:09:03 AM
From the website of Keith Hill, who made the instrument that Rübsam plays:

He was convinced when it was pointed out  how Bach, in his autograph manuscripts as verifiable from facsimilis , actually writes his idea of  "vacillare" directly into the score by writing the notes played by the right hand fractionally ahead of the notes of the left hand, when measured vertically, about 60% of the time and reverses this about 40% of the time.  You can hear for yourself how this creates a feeling of freedom in the flow of the music as the notes of the right hand sing unconstrained by the beat that otherwise would stifle all feeling of freedom in the music.

Even if this idea at first glance may seem attractive, I do not believe it. Bach was in a hurry, when writing his scores, and small lacks of precision could not be avoided. There are many examples of similar "lack of precision" in other scores, e.g. the dedicational score of the Brandenburg concertos. BTW Rübsam's microdesynchronization of the voices, arpeggio and quasi style brisé has also been used by others first and foremost Gustav Leonhardt, but to a much lesser degree than Rübsam.  I think one can say, that a harpsichord – and probably even more a lute-harpsichord – invites the sensitive player to that kind of playing. With Rübsam I do not find the music disjointed, and only rarely does one feel any rhythmical instability. On the contrary the different voices are easier to distinguish from each other (Rübsam names it horizontal playing in contrast to vertical playing, where the music essentially sounds more or less like a sequence of chords), and there is more opportunity for expressive playing.  And not the least there is, because it is impossible to memorize all the small rhythmical irregularities, an important element of spontaneity, which gives the music more life. I wonder though, what Bach would think of the deliberate tempi, after all it is reported, that he chose rather fast tempi. But I do not mind a slow tempo, when it is filled with expression as it is here. So one has to listen attentively to the playing to get the full pleasure from it, and in this way it is challenging to the listener.  And repeated listening pays.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 20, 2017, 07:58:08 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 20, 2017, 07:40:53 AM
Even if this idea at first glance may seem attractive, I do not believe it. Bach was in a hurry, when writing his scores, and small lacks of precision could not be avoided. There are many examples of similar "lack of precision" in other scores, e.g. the dedicational score of the Brandenburg concertos. BTW Rübsam's microdesynchronization of the voices, arpeggio and quasi style brisé has also been used by others first and foremost Gustav Leonhardt, but to a much lesser degree than Rübsam.  I think one can say, that a harpsichord – and probably even more a lute-harpsichord – invites the sensitive player to that kind of playing. With Rübsam I do not find the music disjointed, and only rarely does one feel any rhythmical instability. On the contrary the different voices are easier to distinguish from each other (Rübsam names it horizontal playing in contrast to vertical playing, where the music essentially sounds more or less like a sequence of chords), and there is more opportunity for expressive playing.  And not the least there is, because it is impossible to memorize all the small rhythmical irregularities, an important element of spontaneity, which gives the music more life. I wonder though, what Bach would think of the deliberate tempi, after all it is reported, that he chose rather fast tempi. But I do not mind a slow tempo, when it is filled with expression as it is here. So one has to listen attentively to the playing to get the full pleasure from it, and in this way it is challenging to the listener.  And repeated listening pays.
I think this is all right on the money. This is full of spontaneity and if you put this on without paying attention to it, it becomes rather annoying. The reward is in living with it closely. There is a kind of period of adjustment but it's not hard. Of course I'm glad this isn't the only thing but it's a special addition to the interpretation of WTC, I think.   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 09:17:12 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 20, 2017, 07:40:53 AM
Even if this idea at first glance may seem attractive, I do not believe it. Bach was in a hurry, when writing his scores, and small lacks of precision could not be avoided. There are many examples of similar "lack of precision" in other scores, e.g. the dedicational score of the Brandenburg concertos. BTW Rübsam's microdesynchronization of the voices, arpeggio and quasi style brisé has also been used by others first and foremost Gustav Leonhardt, but to a much lesser degree than Rübsam.  I think one can say, that a harpsichord – and probably even more a lute-harpsichord – invites the sensitive player to that kind of playing. With Rübsam I do not find the music disjointed, and only rarely does one feel any rhythmical instability. On the contrary the different voices are easier to distinguish from each other (Rübsam names it horizontal playing in contrast to vertical playing, where the music essentially sounds more or less like a sequence of chords), and there is more opportunity for expressive playing.  And not the least there is, because it is impossible to memorize all the small rhythmical irregularities, an important element of spontaneity, which gives the music more life. I wonder though, what Bach would think of the deliberate tempi, after all it is reported, that he chose rather fast tempi. But I do not mind a slow tempo, when it is filled with expression as it is here. So one has to listen attentively to the playing to get the full pleasure from it, and in this way it is challenging to the listener.  And repeated listening pays.

How good is your statistics? I've forgotten how to do the calculation, but what is the probability of 60/40 ahead/behind difference occurring if the differences are random?  In a work the size of WTC.

Another point to make here is that, for Rubsam, this staggering is not a specially Bachian thing, I think he does much the same in Böhm and Pachelbel. When I first started to listen to the Cello suites I thought that there was a real danger of what he's doing becoming predictable and formulaic, like I would say Koopman can be. But the way Rubsam  uses all these techniques is so sensitive and organic in the music that it's not formulaic at all.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 09:23:48 AM
Tell me, has any listened to the Rubsam on Spotify and through  a Flac download? Is the sound difference much better in Flac? (I'm listening through Spotify.)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 20, 2017, 09:27:06 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 09:17:12 AM
How good is your statistics? I've forgotten how to do the calculation, but what is the probability of 60/40 ahead/behind occurring is the differences are random?  In a work the size of WTC.

Making some very simple assumptions, such as totally random tendency for note to be ahead or behind, you would expect the deviation from 50/50 to be 1/sqrt(N) where N is the number of notes. If there were a million notes, 1/sqrt(1000000) = 0.001 = 0.1%. You would get 50.1% vs 49.9%. But random is probably a bad assumption. Suppose Bach wrote the treble staff first sometimes and the bass staff first other times. And suppose he tended to lag on the page for the second one he wrote. Then 60/40 seems reasonable.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 20, 2017, 09:52:16 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 20, 2017, 09:27:06 AM
Making some very simple assumptions, such as totally random tendency for note to be ahead or behind, you would expect the deviation from 50/50 to be 1/sqrt(N) where N is the number of notes. If there were a million notes, 1/sqrt(1000000) = 0.001 = 0.1%. You would get 50.1% vs 49.9%. But random is probably a bad assumption. Suppose Bach wrote the treble staff first sometimes and the bass staff first other times. And suppose he tended to lag on the page for the second one he wrote. Then 60/40 seems reasonable.

Thanks Scarpia. You saved my day.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 20, 2017, 09:55:27 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 09:23:48 AM
Tell me, has any listened to the Rubsam on Spotify and through  a Flac download? Is the sound difference much better in Flac? (I'm listening through Spotify.)

I downloaded the recordings in Flac format and burnt them to CDR. The sound is excellent.

Spotify is not available in my country.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 20, 2017, 09:58:15 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 09:17:12 AM

Another point to make here is that, for Rubsam, this staggering is not a specially Bachian thing, I think he does much the same in Böhm and Pachelbel. When I first started to listen to the Cello suites I thought that there was a real danger of what he's doing becoming predictable and formulaic, like I would say Koopman can be. But the way Rubsam  uses all these techniques is so sensitive and organic in the music that it's not formulaic at all.

I had this feeling initially already with his Naxos Bach organ recordings, but learned fast the same as you.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 10:45:22 AM
Sound is much better on his Flac downloads than on Spotify, not surprisingly. I shall invest in the lot forthwith, a Christmas present to myself.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on December 24, 2017, 02:23:49 AM
Since learning of the recent WTC released in five volumes by Wolfgang Rubsam played on a lute harpsichord built by Keith Hill I have been listening to the music with great enjoyment.  This short text written by Rubsam gives some background information about the genesis of these recordings (please excuse me if this information has appeared earlier in this thread).

QuoteOn Horizontal Interpretation

About exactly one year ago, my friend Keith Hill had built yet another Lautenwerk in his keyboard shop in Michigan. I immediately loved it because of how it inspired my playing, in effect, talking to me every millisecond as I played.  Keith suggested that I take it home and record the complete Well Tempered Clavier on it, doing something never done before: using Bach's manuscript and literally following the vertical alignment of notes—those meant to be played at about the same time—as they actually appear from Bach's hand in relationship to one another so that, if one pitch appears to the left of another, it is played slightly before those to the right.  This set of 5 Compact Discs, recorded in High Definition audio, using the Kirnberger III well tempered tuning, represents my work on this project over the span of one year.

The Lautenwerk is the perfect instrument because of its overall warm, lilting color that does not rely on either manual or stop changes, allowing the intense individuality of each measure to be retained, while remaining interesting at all times--never predictable.

In my view this rich and inevitable music needs to be unpredictable. More to the point, each voice of the polyphony must be able to sing and interact to fully express Bach's complex linear architecture. Furthermore, even after repeated listening to the same track, listeners should perceive yet more beauty in matters of elegance, individuality, rhythmic complexity, ornamentation and overall color of interpretation by virtue of total independence of voices interacting.

In Bach's music, polyphony creates the harmonic architecture and color, not the other way around.  This is clearly and often significantly misunderstood by even serious keyboard players worldwide. The complex interaction of singing voices that results in this recording is what I refer to as a "horizontal interpretation", as opposed to what seems to have become the run-of-the-mill finger-oriented vertical/chordal/harmonic/mechanical approach to performance, of what J.S. Bach clearly meant us to understand and communicate.  I hope that this recording helps to counter this misunderstanding and serve as a vehicle to assist and re-orient the cultural "inner ear" for Bach and for early music in general. Perhaps beyond that it may encourage further the art of elegant ornamentation especially, but not exclusively in pieces having repeat sections. This skill is not limited to just adding trills but in fact includes all kinds of flourishes, especially in sequence patterns and in many cadences of the Well Tempered Clavier.

Last but not least, I invite each listener to focus with eyes shut on each independent voice and discover how the music embraces the heart and mind.

Wolfgang Rübsam
September 2016

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 24, 2017, 03:42:47 AM
Quote from: San Antone on December 24, 2017, 02:23:49 AM
Since learning of the recent WTC released in five volumes by Wolfgang Rubsam played on a lute harpsichord built by Keith Hill I have been listening to the music with great enjoyment.  This short text written by Rubsam gives some background information about the genesis of these recordings (please excuse me if this information has appeared earlier in this thread).
Thanks for this. This recording continues to occupy my ears, and thoughts, since I first acquired it last week.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on December 24, 2017, 03:46:57 AM
Quote from: San Antone on December 24, 2017, 02:23:49 AM
Since learning of the recent WTC released in five volumes by Wolfgang Rubsam played on a lute harpsichord built by Keith Hill I have been listening to the music with great enjoyment.  This short text written by Rubsam gives some background information about the genesis of these recordings (please excuse me if this information has appeared earlier in this thread).

Thanks for the background information. His line of reasoning seems very consistent with his performances.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 24, 2017, 04:26:28 AM
I've been listening to Glen Wilson. Here are some random thoughts on Rubsam.

One think that  seems to mark Rubsam out is that there's not a moment, not a bar, of harmonic playing: the voices are independent everywhere. Wilson has periods of horizontal voice leading, but periods of very chordal, soloist/ accompaniment type playing.

Another thing which seems to be a Rubsam trait is his consistent sweetness and mellowness. You never get a glimpse of what Don Satz calls "the dark side", and for Don this is to trample over something essential.

Rubsam's ornamentation in WTC is, I think, a real achievement.

Rübsam mentions  non-predictability, quite rightly. Even in very formal structures like fugues his application of the  horizontal approach seems to make the music sound constantly creating itself, consistently fresh - like what Debussy achieved in Jeux and Boulez in Marteau sans Maître! This is a big big revelation.

It must be hard to play horizontally, I mean  you need to use judgement! Rübsam's very musical I think, a poet. But you could see how in less passionate hands it would fall completely flat.  He's a pastoral poet, and he's shown how the pastoral mode really can work in WTC.  I hope that someday, someone with epic sensibilities will play and record WTC horizontally.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on December 24, 2017, 08:58:05 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 24, 2017, 04:26:28 AM
One think that  seems to mark Rubsam out is that there's not a moment, not a bar, of harmonic playing: the voices are independent everywhere.

To my ears, there's a kind of Jackson Pollock effect.  Not unpleasant, but you have to work at it a bit to extract the sense of it all.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 24, 2017, 09:04:16 AM
Looking on Amazon, I see only MP3 downloads, no physical media. Is this so?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 24, 2017, 09:32:28 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 24, 2017, 09:04:16 AM
Looking on Amazon, I see only MP3 downloads, no physical media. Is this so?


Yes, best to get the FLAC direct from Rubsam's website.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 24, 2017, 10:43:58 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 24, 2017, 09:32:28 AM

Yes, best to get the FLAC direct from Rubsam's website.

...which is where?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on December 24, 2017, 11:18:22 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 24, 2017, 10:43:58 PM
...which is where?

https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com

https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/wtc-book-1
https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/wtc-book-2
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 24, 2017, 11:48:04 PM
Quote from: Marc on December 24, 2017, 11:18:22 PM
https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com

https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/wtc-book-1
https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/wtc-book-2

Samples do sound interesting, but pricey, and I find the web site confusing. It mentions MP3 or FLAC available, but you click on download and it sends you to PayPal before you are given any choice of FLAC vs MP3.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: zamyrabyrd on December 25, 2017, 12:22:36 AM
Quote from: Que on December 20, 2017, 01:20:32 AM
Listened to the samples (https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/wtc-book-2).
Sure, anyone who likes a slow, staggering and disjointed approach in which musical lines are deconstructed, will have a field day.  :) Q

Yikes, I have to clean out my ears and listen to Glenn Gould!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 25, 2017, 12:41:03 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 24, 2017, 11:48:04 PM
Samples do sound interesting, but pricey, and I find the web site confusing. It mentions MP3 or FLAC available, but you click on download and it sends you to PayPal before you are given any choice of FLAC vs MP3.

You go to paypal, you pay and then you get a choice of downloading mp3 or FLAC -- same price for the two.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: amw on December 25, 2017, 01:11:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 24, 2017, 04:26:28 AM
One think that  seems to mark Rubsam out is that there's not a moment, not a bar, of harmonic playing: the voices are independent everywhere.
I'm not sure how different the lautenwerk is from the actual baroque lute, but in lute playing pretty much everything is arpeggiated just because that's how the instrument works. The instrument he's posing with has a keyboard which is obviously a significant difference from playing a stringed instrument, but the action mechanism may be responsible for some of the staggered voices, I wouldn't know though.

Mostly it seems kind of slow to me, although on a nice instrument, but I also liked Dantone, so take my opinion for whatever that's worth
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: The One on December 25, 2017, 01:26:47 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 24, 2017, 11:18:22 PM
https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com

https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/wtc-book-1
https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/wtc-book-2

#NotMyWellTemperedClavier
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on December 25, 2017, 01:39:49 AM
Quote from: amw on December 25, 2017, 01:11:02 AM
I'm not sure how different the lautenwerk is from the actual baroque lute, but in lute playing pretty much everything is arpeggiated just because that's how the instrument works. The instrument he's posing with has a keyboard which is obviously a significant difference from playing a stringed instrument, but the action mechanism may be responsible for some of the staggered voices, I wouldn't know though.

Mostly it seems kind of slow to me, although on a nice instrument, but I also liked Dantone, so take my opinion for whatever that's worth

Keith Hill contributed a commentary on the Lautenwerk he built for Rubsam in which he talks about the specific mechanical aspects of the various instruments he's built and how they impact on the performance here (https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/the-lautenwerk).




I immediately fell in love with these recordings.  However, since a response to music is subjective it is not really surprising others have expressed an opposite reaction; nevertheless it has been a very interesting discussion.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 25, 2017, 02:13:35 AM
Quote from: amw on December 25, 2017, 01:11:02 AM

Mostly it seems kind of slow to me

The slowness is part of what gives it its pastoral feel. The tempo of sheep grazing. The pulse seems natual to me, like a heart beat, though not the heart beat of someone excited - the heartbeat of someone daydreaming of fields, rolling hills, grazing sheep . . . no wolf in sight.

It would be good if someone would run a section through a programme to speed it up without altering pitch and post the file here, just to see the effects of the tempo more clearly. No one has ever played Bach keyboard like this before, I'm sure of it, and it just may be that cantabile + horizontal demands these tempos. That's to say, too much expressive detail gets lost in the flurry if it's faster. The tempos seem singable, for all he's Italian you couldn't sing WTC like Dantone plays it.

(note to self: contrast effect of slow tempos in L'Acheron's Gibbons.)

Try and copy a bit of WR on your piano, amw, and play it a bit faster and see what you think.

Also interesting, I just mention it randomly, is the effect of horizontal playing on articulation. You know you have two or more voices each playing with their own phrasing, sometimes the voices interact in a call and response type of way but more often not. I just mention it because I've been listening to some Leonhardt - not WTC but the Froberger on his album with Weckmann - and there the music really does respire because of the articulation, and that gives it a sort of life which Rubsam's WTC doesn't have . . . it may have a different sort of life of course - the respiration may come more from all the rubato.

Harnoncourt may have experimented with some of these ideas before Rubsam - in his second B minor mass for example. There's something to explore there.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: zamyrabyrd on December 25, 2017, 04:33:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 25, 2017, 02:13:35 AM
The slowness is part of what gives it its pastoral feel. The tempo of sheep grazing. The pulse seems natual to me, like a heart beat, though not the heart beat of someone excited - the heartbeat of someone daydreaming of fields, rolling hills, grazing sheep . . . no wolf in sight.

It would be good if someone would run a section through a programme to speed it up without altering pitch and post the file here, just to see the effects of the tempo more clearly. No one has ever played Bach keyboard like this before, I'm sure of it, and it just may be that cantabile + horizontal demands these tempos. That's to say, too much expressive detail gets lost in the flurry if it's faster. The tempos seem singable, for all he's Italian you couldn't sing WTC like Dantone plays it.

In Badura-Skoda's scholarly "Interpreting Bach at the Keyboard" a case is made for faster tempi for Baroque music than we have been used to over the past 200 years or so. Some proof is cited for that, a collection in England of barrels for mechanical organ from the 18th century that included pieces by Handel. (I was also gratified to read in these examplars, that trills often started on the principal note rather than the upper one, a fiat that was a hard for me to accept while I was studying, sometimes sounding horrible.)

My understanding of Bach is based on the balance between horizontal and vertical. In the recent cited examples, it is difficult to make sense of either. Bach wasn't always "pastoral", he was also fire and brimstone.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 25, 2017, 04:38:31 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 25, 2017, 02:13:35 AM
. no wolf in sight.

No, but wolf (Wolf) is precisely what (whom) you hear.

Quote from: Mandryka
.. and it just may be that cantabile + horizontal demands these tempos. That's to say, too much expressive detail gets lost in the flurry

Precisely. This is an important point. In faster tempo the effect of the intended micro-desynchronization of voices diminishes, and it will sound more like mere lack of precision (sloppiness).

Quote from: Mandryka
Also interesting, I just mention it randomly, is the effect of horizontal playing on articulation. You know you have two or more voices each playing with their own phrasing, sometimes the voices interact in a call and response type of way but more often not. I just mention it because I've been listening to some Leonhardt - not WTC but the Froberger on his album with Weckmann - and there the music really does respire because of the articulation, and that gives it a sort of life which Rubsam's WTC doesn't have . . . it may have a different sort of life of course - the respiration may come more from all the rubato.

Yes, and when the voices are played in a more individual way, the interaction between them will tend to be even more casual, and this may be experienced as if the music is less integrated. I think Rübsam's interpretations tend in that direction, but there is on the other hand so much else to enjoy because of the spontaneous air and resulting unpredictability, which he uses to maximum effect. I also like the deliberate "inner calmness" in his playing. Leonhardt's playing is on a higher level of agitation and the voices interact in a more predictable and integrated way, and the expression is on another but not necessarily higher level. I think both ways of playing work, and they supplement each other.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 25, 2017, 05:36:17 AM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on December 25, 2017, 04:33:49 AM
In Badura-Skoda's scholarly "Interpreting Bach at the Keyboard" a case is made for faster tempi for Baroque music than we have been used to over the past 200 years or so. Some proof is cited for that, a collection in England of barrels for mechanical organ from the 18th century that included pieces by Handel. (I was also gratified to read in these examplars, that trills often started on the principal note rather than the upper one, a fiat that was a hard for me to accept while I was studying, sometimes sounding horrible.)



Clearly this is a bit of a wonky argument as it stands.

Quote from: zamyrabyrd on December 25, 2017, 04:33:49 AM

. Bach wasn't always "pastoral", he was also fire and brimstone.

I've been thinking hard about what you're suggesting.

Although I don't think that "fire and brimstone" are part of WTC, I do think that the music sounds good if there are emotional contrasts: dark emotions and " redemptive' illumination.

However, having now listened more attentively to the minor key fugues in Bk 2,  I don't believe that Rubsam's pastoral excludes these contrasts.

Although Rubsam's calm, he plumbs the depths of expression in the music. He's not extrovertly thrilling, but he is psychologically, introvertly, thrilling.

Not fire and brimstone, but something much deeper than that.

Anyway, try it for yourself in those minor key fugues. Listen, for example, to the contrast in affects in the f sharp minor fugue, BWV 883, at about the half way point.

(I hope WR is reading all of this!)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 25, 2017, 05:38:48 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 25, 2017, 04:38:31 AM


Precisely. This is an important point. In faster tempo the effect of the intended micro-desynchronization of voices diminishes, and it will sound more like mere lack of precision (sloppiness).
.

I just used Audacity to speed up one track by 10%. It's not as good, Rubsam's tempo is better!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 25, 2017, 06:10:34 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 25, 2017, 05:36:17 AM
(I hope WR is reading all of this!)

So do I. I have told WR about this forum, and he answered me, that he had checked it and also had seen the WTC thread. He commented upon the at times "loud" opinions of the non-musicians. I think he meant, that some of the most rigorous opinions here are rather uninformed. But that was a month ago, I do not know, if he has visited the forum again.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 25, 2017, 06:22:17 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 25, 2017, 05:36:17 AM
Although I don't think that "fire and brimstone" are part of WTC, I do think that the music sounds good if there are emotional contrasts: dark emotions and " redemptive' illumination.

As an example I was confused by WR's soft interpretation of the c sharp minor fugue from book II. I always saw it as a vigorous gigue-type composition in contrast to the lyrical prelude. But thinking it over I came to the conclusion, that very few - if any - of the other fugues of the WTC contrast in any signiificant degree with the affect of the prelude, and WR may be right, that the c sharp minor pair isn't meant to express any contrast.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on December 25, 2017, 07:41:53 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 25, 2017, 06:10:34 AM
So do I. I have told WR about this forum, and he answered me, that he had checked it and also had seen the WTC thread. He commented upon the at times "loud" opinions of the non-musicians. I think he meant, that some of the most rigorous opinions here are rather uninformed. But that was a month ago, I do not know, if he has visited the forum again.

Most music listeners and lovers are uninformed.
At least that's my experience.

I myself am only a slightly informed non-musician, and despite the fact that I think that Wolfgang Rübsam is a very interesting loot on the tree of Bach/baroque interpreters, in general 'his' Bach is not 'mine'. My favourite recordings of him are the Philips Bach/organ ones, when tempi were faster and his approach was more 'no nonsense'.
I do realize of course, that this is not a very rigorous opinion. ;)
My opinions about performances and recordings are getting less and less rigorous, btw. Could be age.

I'm with my family right now (Christmas Time Is Here Again :) 0:)), and even though I'm tempted to download some of Rübsam's recordings, I will probably decide about it in the New Year to come.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 25, 2017, 07:52:24 AM
After listening to a few samples, I'm tempted. It's certainly different, and something that's different and skillfully done can be really open your eyes to something new, even if it doesn't replace more conventional performances in your preference. This is certainly skillfully done and not uninformed, as I can conclude by the fact that Rubsam has a long history of producing high quality mainstream recordings of Bach over a long career. He discovered a new instrument and it led him to conceive a "new" way of playing these works.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on December 25, 2017, 08:11:29 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 02:59:05 AM
Quotedisjointed approach
Q
I wonder if other people agree with que that the approach is disjointed (overarticulated?)

No, I would not agree.  I consider these recordings by Wolfgang Rubsam to be the most enjoyable I have ever heard - but who knows how I will feel after months of listening.  The other recent recording of WTC that I have enjoyed is by Kenneth Weiss, I should go back and re-listen to it now that I have Rubsam in my ears.  But I remember really liking it when I first played it.

I've also sampled the recordings by Pieter-Jan Belder and Ottavio Dantone (new to me, but obviously been around for some time) and will probably try to hear their entire performances. 

I only have access to Part II of Christophe Rousset's recent release, but although others have praised the sound of his instrument, it is a bit bright for my taste.  Consequently I probably won't purchase Part I.  Bob van Asperen's recordings, although highly praised here, do nothing for me and his instrument is not pleasing to my ears at all.

What I have learned is that I vastly prefer an intimate take on these works, which I think (from my reading) is how Bach also envisioned them.  After all there is no more intimate keyboard instrument than the clavichord, which was the preferred choice of Sebastian Bach.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: The One on December 25, 2017, 08:42:52 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 25, 2017, 07:52:24 AM
as I can conclude by the fact that Rubsam has a long history of producing high quality mainstream recordings of Bach over a long career.

Actually, I never came by a "high quality" or "mainstream" Bach by Rubsam. I have many organ sets and one of the worst is by Rubsam. I've heard that he can play Reger or Vierne up to a level.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: The One on December 25, 2017, 08:47:34 AM
Quote from: San Antone on December 25, 2017, 08:11:29 AM
The other recent recording of WTC that I have enjoyed is by Kenneth,

Please give the other Kenneth (The Canadian) a try sometime.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 25, 2017, 09:41:47 AM
Quote from: The One on December 25, 2017, 08:42:52 AM
Actually, I never came by a "high quality" or "mainstream" Bach by Rubsam. I have many organ sets and one of the worst is by Rubsam. I've heard that he can play Reger or Vierne up to a level.

You say that as if it were a fact, and not just your opinion.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 25, 2017, 10:00:34 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 25, 2017, 07:41:53 AM
I myself am only a slightly informed non-musician, and despite the fact that I think that Wolfgang Rübsam is a very interesting loot on the tree of Bach/baroque interpreters, in general 'his' Bach is not 'mine'. My favourite recordings of him are the Philips Bach/organ ones, when tempi were faster and his approach was more 'no nonsense'.
I do realize of course, that this is not a very rigorous opinion. ;)

Of course his later recordings cannnot stand alone, they are only one - very distinctive -  intrepretatory approach, but none-the-less they are certainly revelatory in their own way. With growing age I find enjoyment in many different interpretations, which enlighten the music each in their own way, and the question of preferences gets more and more unimportant, very similar to what you write here:

Quote from: Marc
My opinions about performances and recordings are getting less and less rigorous, btw. Could be age.



Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 25, 2017, 10:08:20 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 25, 2017, 10:00:34 AM
Of course his later recordings cannnot stand alone, they are only one - very distinctive -  intrepretatory approach, but none-the-less they are certainly revelatory in their own way. With growing age I find enjoyment in many different interpretations, which enlighten the music each in their own way, and the question of preferences gets more and more unimportant, very similar to what you write here:

+1
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: The One on December 25, 2017, 10:11:38 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 25, 2017, 09:41:47 AM
You say that as if it were a fact, and not just your opinion.
Take it as you see fit. Not a place (or my place for that matter) to re-establish what 'fact', 'belief' and 'opinion' and/or their differences are...especially after your usage of "fact". :D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 25, 2017, 10:17:45 AM
Quote from: The One on December 25, 2017, 08:42:52 AM
Actually, I never came by a "high quality" or "mainstream" Bach by Rubsam. I have many organ sets and one of the worst is by Rubsam. I've heard that he can play Reger or Vierne up to a level.

His Bach recordings have never been mainstream. His first set for Philips virtually introduced the rhetorical approach to Bach's organ music, and his Naxos set introduces, whatever you mean about it, a highly individual thoughtful approach. Something similar can be said about his Bach on piano series also for Naxos. And now these Bach on lute-harpsichord series are so far removed from mainstream, as I can imagine One can only hope, that he decides to record more Bach on the lute-harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 25, 2017, 10:22:21 AM
Quote from: The One on December 25, 2017, 08:47:34 AM
Please give the other Kenneth (The Canadian) a try sometime.

I enjoy both (Kenneth Gilbert and Kenneth Weiss) and would not dare to choose between them.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 25, 2017, 10:46:03 AM
Quote from: San Antone on December 25, 2017, 08:11:29 AM




What I have learned is that I vastly prefer an intimate take on these works,

I  like an intimate approach too, and I like something else: the sense of the player exploring ideas; a mind engaged with the music; an intellectual aspect. This is one of the reasons Egarr's recording is special to me. Leonhardt even more so really, Leonhardt more than anyone.

Quote from: San Antone on December 25, 2017, 08:11:29 AM

.  After all there is no more intimate keyboard instrument than the clavichord

Jaroslav Tuma sometimes plays the music horizontally and quite lyrically -- in the C sharp minor P and F of Bk 2 for example. The clavichord is very good for separating the voices and hence encourages making them independent, because the timbres in the different registers are so different. Tuma's not consistently like this, but I'm starting to think that I may have underestimated his achievement.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 25, 2017, 10:54:42 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 25, 2017, 07:41:53 AM
loot on the tree

WTF is that?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 25, 2017, 11:02:09 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 25, 2017, 10:54:42 AM
WTF is that?
'

He probably means something like bud.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on December 27, 2017, 02:27:57 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 25, 2017, 10:54:42 AM
WTF is that?

Pfui dich!
So spricht man nicht in der Weihnachtszeit!

Premont guessed right, I thought 'loot' was an acceptable English word for butt bud.

Still learning... :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 27, 2017, 03:29:54 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 27, 2017, 02:27:57 AM
Pfui dich!
So spricht man nicht in der Weihnachtszeit!

Premont guessed right, I thought 'loot' was an acceptable English word for butt bud.

Still learning... :)

I thought it was something to do with this

https://www.youtube.com/v/tI5gu2AMDPc
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: André on December 27, 2017, 06:13:41 AM
Question: how do aficionados listen to WTC ? After all, Bach probably didn't compose it for continued playing/listening.

So, do you go for all 24/48 at one sitting, one p&f only, or a few at a time, or a disc worth (12 p&f) ? When does a feeling of similarity, of blurred individuality starts to set in (if it does) ?

Personally I liked the lp format for that particular purpose. One lp side at a time was just fine with me. Beyond that my attention level starts to drop  :-X.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 27, 2017, 06:37:00 AM
Quote from: André on December 27, 2017, 06:13:41 AM
Question: how do aficionados listen to WTC ? After all, Bach probably didn't compose it for continued playing/listening.

So, do you go for all 24/48 at one sitting, one p&f only, or a few at a time, or a disc worth (12 p&f) ? When does a feeling of similarity, of blurred individuality starts to set in (if it does) ?

Personally I liked the lp format for that particular purpose. One lp side at a time was just fine with me. Beyond that my attention level starts to drop  :-X.

Usually I listen to a major/minor pair. Sometimes if I am feeling enthusiastic I will listen to two pair. It's an aperitif.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on December 27, 2017, 07:04:19 AM
Quote from: André on December 27, 2017, 06:13:41 AM
Question: how do aficionados listen to WTC ? After all, Bach probably didn't compose it for continued playing/listening.

So, do you go for all 24/48 at one sitting, one p&f only, or a few at a time, or a disc worth (12 p&f) ? When does a feeling of similarity, of blurred individuality starts to set in (if it does) ?

Personally I liked the lp format for that particular purpose. One lp side at a time was just fine with me. Beyond that my attention level starts to drop  :-X.

When I am listening to a recording for the first time I put it on shuffle play and listen to a hodgepodge of the pieces; when I listen to a recording that I like I start at the beginning (of either I or II) and let it play until I've heard enough, which is often the entire book, about an hour.  This is the same way I listen to the cello suites and the solo violin S&P.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 27, 2017, 12:51:16 PM
Quote from: André on December 27, 2017, 06:13:41 AM
Question: how do aficionados listen to WTC ? After all, Bach probably didn't compose it for continued playing/listening.

In my youth I used to listen to book I or II at one sitting and sometimes even both books at one sitting, but nowadays I most often listen to one half of one book at a time.

However Bach is reported by one of his pupils to have performed at least one book for him at one sitting at least three times.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 11, 2018, 04:43:21 AM
This Rubsam seems to be the most radical interpretation of WTC. It's magic how natural, maybe even modern, it seems, too. When I try to think of recordings that really deviate from what I'm use to I have to go in another direction, like the old Samuel Feinberg (which is what? romantic?). But Rubsam is unique in this "horizontal" playing, right? Pretty neat one can be so novel and yet not affected or false.     
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2018, 12:31:37 PM
Quote from: milk on January 11, 2018, 04:43:21 AM
This Rubsam seems to be the most radical interpretation of WTC. It's magic how natural, maybe even modern, it seems, too.

What he's saying, I think, is that he's  following the score

QuoteKeith suggested that I take it home and record the complete Well Tempered Clavier on it, doing something never done before: using Bach's manuscript and literally following the vertical alignment of notes—those meant to be played at about the same time—as they actually appear from Bach's hand in relationship to one another so that, if one pitch appears to the left of another, it is played slightly before those to the right.  This set of 5 Compact Discs, recorded in High Definition audio, using the Kirnberger III well tempered tuning, represents my work on this project over the span of one year.



If that's what he is doing, I think it's hard to imagine unintended deviations in alignment would make such good music! Of course he's chosen tempos, articulation etc so that's got a lot to do with why it works so well too I'm sure,

I'm also interested in this comment that Keith Hill makes on Rubsam's website

QuoteTo accomplish this, Bach, according to F. Griepenkerl, in this quote from a letter he wrote and which has been published, "Bach himself, his sons, and Forkel played the masterpieces with such a profound declamation that they sounded like polyphonic songs sung by individual great artist singers.

It makes me think of Vartolo's madrigalesque style in Frescobaldi's harpsichord music. Maybe, in answer to your question

QuoteBut Rubsam is unique in this "horizontal" playing, right?

Vartolo is a good place to start investigating, in Frescobaldi Capricci for example, Vartolo's Capricci are a very good thing to hear when Rubsam's latest AoF is fresh in your mind, in my experience, they complement each other nicely somehow.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on January 11, 2018, 02:12:11 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2018, 12:31:37 PM
What he's saying, I think, is that he's  following the score
If that's what he is doing, I think it's hard to imagine unintended deviations in alignment would make such good music! Of course he's chosen tempos, articulation etc so that's got a lot to do with why it works so well too I'm sure,

As I have written before, with due respect to Keith Hill I consider his idea to be rather fanciful, because I do not recall, that I ever have seen a hand written score with complete alignment of the parts. And the principle of introducing microdesynchronisations between the parts will in every case work well in Rübsam's hands. He does not need to adhere strictly to any given scheme, and in this case he also said himself, that he does not do it in the same way every time he is playing a piece. So score or not - it is Rübsam himself, who creates this original and fruitful realisation of the score.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on January 11, 2018, 05:46:06 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2018, 12:31:37 PM
Vartolo is a good place to start investigating, in Frescobaldi Capricci for example, Vartolo's Capricci are a very good thing to hear when Rubsam's latest AoF is fresh in your mind, in my experience, they complement each other nicely somehow.

Which Vartolo are you referring to? The one on tactus?

I just listened to his Goldberg variations, and it is also very much "horizontal" in the manner of Rubsam. Quite interesting. I think Rubsam made a Goldberg on the Lautenwerck that is going to be released soon.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 11, 2018, 06:51:11 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on January 11, 2018, 05:46:06 PM
Which Vartolo are you referring to? The one on tactus?

I just listened to his Goldberg variations, and it is also very much "horizontal" in the manner of Rubsam. Quite interesting. I think Rubsam made a Goldberg on the Lautenwerck that is going to be released soon.
Indeed he responded on FB that this is the case - to be released on Naxos.

Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2018, 12:31:37 PM
What he's saying, I think, is that he's  following the score

With Vartolo, he'd be one of the first to see it this way? Whatever the case is, it's a fascinating recording and discussion. Maybe it will take the Naxos release to get more publications musing about it.

I'm going to listen to more Vartolo today.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2018, 08:42:43 PM
Actually I just looked at some of the manuscript of WTC, it's easy to find examples online, and keith Hill and Wolfgang Rübsam are right to say that the voices are slightly out of line. But I also looked at the manuscript of a Mozart piano sonata and that too seemed no more aligned than the Bach.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on January 12, 2018, 02:51:42 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on January 11, 2018, 05:46:06 PM
Quite interesting. I think Rubsam made a Goldberg on the Lautenwerck that is going to be released soon.

Yes, in august this year.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on January 12, 2018, 02:56:05 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2018, 08:42:43 PM
Actually I just looked at some of the manuscript of WTC, it's easy to find examples online, and keith Hill and Wolfgang Rübsam are right to say that the voices are slightly out of line. But I also looked at the manuscript of a Mozart piano sonata and that too seemed no more aligned than the Bach.

Yes, this is in principle what I just wrote above, and the reason why I find Hill's theory to be overinterpretation (read: free fancy).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 12, 2018, 03:26:59 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on January 11, 2018, 05:46:06 PM
Which Vartolo are you referring to? The one on tactus?

I just listened to his Goldberg variations, and it is also very much "horizontal" in the manner of Rubsam. Quite interesting. I think Rubsam made a Goldberg on the Lautenwerck that is going to be released soon.

Yes, the Tactus and Naxos are the same. It's really the Fredscobaldi that I was thinking of, it's a while since I heard his Bach.

Cera's French suits may also be a bit horizontal, I'm not sure. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on January 12, 2018, 04:40:54 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 12, 2018, 03:26:59 AM
Yes, the Tactus and Naxos are the same. It's really the Fredscobaldi that I was thinking of..

Oh no, Vartolo recorded only the Fantasie Book I, Ricercari and Canzoni Francesi for Naxos, but these recordings were not released by Tactus. These works were recorded for Tactus by Francesco Tasini.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Karl Henning on January 12, 2018, 04:41:49 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 12, 2018, 04:40:54 AM
Oh no, Vartolo recorded only the Fantasie Book I, Ricercari and Canzoni Francesi for Naxos, but these recordings were not released by Tactus. These works were recorded for Tactus by Francesco Tasini.

That is what I thought I remembered.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 15, 2018, 05:06:33 AM
QuoteCéline Frisch, une habituée du Théâtre de la Ville, fondatrice de l'ensemble Café Zimmermann avec lequel elle a enregistré, entre autres, Les Concerts pour plusieurs instruments de Bach, continue d'élargir son énorme répertoire de Bach. Cinq ans après avoir donné au Théâtre des Abbesses le Premier Livre du Clavier bien tempéré (sorti sur disque en 2015 et couronné par un Diapason d'or, un Choc du Classica et d'un ffff de Télérama), elle donnera un choix de pièces du Second Livre dont elle est en train de terminer l'enregistrement intégral – qui devait être (sauf omission de notre part) son 23e album...   

I'm going to,try to get to the concert in June.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on June 02, 2018, 12:30:12 AM
(https://vdegallo.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/0525.jpg)

This WTC 2 was released as long ago as 1986 and reissued in 2013, but I hadn't noticed. It's often muscular and full of vitality.  She's a contrapuntalist, that's to say the complexity of the interrelationships among the voices matters very much in her interpretation, and she doesn't try to seduce is by highlighting one of the melodies in the mix. She's well aware of the variety of affects, and there are some moments of greater tenderness - modulo the overall tough approach. A tough approach, but not an intellectual one. Anne Gallot is never maudlin or mawkish. She's no doubt an interesting musician and I think this is worth catching.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on June 02, 2018, 01:01:07 AM
My interest was piqued by this new release you just posted (didn't know Frédéric Haas was still recording!):

Quote from: Mandryka on June 01, 2018, 11:57:51 PM
(http://hitasura-productions.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/WTKdigipak.jpg)

Frédérick Haas Hemsch 1751 WTC 2

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on June 02, 2018, 03:06:23 AM
Quote from: Que on June 02, 2018, 01:01:07 AM
(didn't know Frédéric Haas was still recording!):

He also released a new Scarlatti CD last year, again using his Hemsch.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 24, 2018, 02:35:02 PM
I do like this recording by Pienaar. At least so far...there are places where I'm not convinced - here and there. But overall it's worthwhile having it. I compared it a bit with Afanassiev who gives am almost opposite reading. I was hoping for something different with Afanassiev's slow tempo...sometimes even slower than Watchorn. But I don't find Afanassiev very imaginative. Maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance. Maybe there are subtleties I missed. I would like to find a slow version on piano that will excite me. Afanassiev didn't quite do it for me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2018, 08:37:40 PM
Quote from: milk on July 24, 2018, 02:35:02 PM. I would like to find a slow version on piano that will excite me. Afanassiev didn't quite do it for me.

Try Tureck (DG) and Nikolayeva,
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2018, 09:32:41 PM
Quote from: Que on June 02, 2018, 01:01:07 AM
My interest was piqued by this new release you just posted (didn't know Frédéric Haas was still recording!):

Haas plays up the lyrical, poetic side;  he has ordered the music in an attempt to make it work holistically. There's no sense of "respect-worthy great old complex contrapuntal monument", on the contrary there is a sense of personal expression of emotions.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: amw on July 25, 2018, 03:49:42 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 24, 2018, 08:37:40 PM
Try Tureck (DG) and Nikolayeva,
I'm not sure if Edwin Fischer counts as slow but he'd probably be my pick.

For fast versions, imo both Gieseking and Dominique Merlet > Pienaar.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 25, 2018, 03:59:44 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 24, 2018, 08:37:40 PM
Try Tureck (DG) and Nikolayeva,
I forgot about Turek. She's always worth going back to.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 25, 2018, 04:03:12 AM
Quote from: amw on July 25, 2018, 03:49:42 AM
I'm not sure if Edwin Fischer counts as slow but he'd probably be my pick.

For fast versions, imo both Gieseking and Dominique Merlet > Pienaar.
I like Fischer. Feinberg is the piano version that's the most raucous and imaginative without being a bit baroque. I find it iresitable.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 27, 2018, 04:00:11 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 24, 2018, 08:37:40 PM
Try Tureck (DG) and Nikolayeva,
I also momentarily forgot about Rubsam who really gives us something slow and special. I wonder if Vartolo will ever record WTC. Or did I miss it?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on July 27, 2018, 12:52:44 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 24, 2018, 08:37:40 PM
Try Tureck (DG) and Nikolayeva,

Big + 1 to the Tureck recommendation.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on August 01, 2018, 05:21:58 AM
Interesting article by Colin Booth on Well Temperament here, he's apparently going to release a WTC this year

https://www.colinbooth.co.uk/bach-n-tuning.pdf
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on August 01, 2018, 07:17:50 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 01, 2018, 05:21:58 AM
Interesting article by Colin Booth on Well Temperament here, he's apparently going to release a WTC this year

https://www.colinbooth.co.uk/bach-n-tuning.pdf


I shall repeat my recommendation of his "Did Bach really mean that".


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on August 01, 2018, 07:49:07 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 01, 2018, 07:17:50 AM

I shall repeat my recommendation of his "Did Bach really mean that".

Yes, I saw that you mention it and went to order it, it was then that I saw his comment about releasing a WTC.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 26, 2018, 01:56:11 PM
Listening to Egarr for the very first time. It's a beautiful performance. He seems to take it horizontally. Makes for expansiveness and evocative grandeur.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on November 26, 2018, 02:29:10 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 01, 2018, 05:21:58 AM
Interesting article by Colin Booth on Well Temperament here, he's apparently going to release a WTC this year

https://www.colinbooth.co.uk/bach-n-tuning.pdf

I've looked into at least one of those schemes, and it seemed to me the mathematics didn't quite fit. It doesn't seem implausible to me that this was Bach's note to himself about how best to tune his harpsichord for the WTC, but without an explanation of the code it seems useless. You can't claim there is a unique way to interpret the squiggles that make sense.

I believe the work was only published in 1801, after even Bach's sons were dead, so their first hand knowledge of papa's tuning system was gone by then.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 26, 2018, 04:42:07 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 01, 2018, 05:21:58 AM
Interesting article by Colin Booth on Well Temperament here, he's apparently going to release a WTC this year

https://www.colinbooth.co.uk/bach-n-tuning.pdf
did this come out?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 26, 2018, 09:07:28 PM
Quote from: milk on November 26, 2018, 04:42:07 PM
did this come out?

Not as far as I can see, I'll write to him to ask if it's going to happen any time soon.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 27, 2018, 03:06:55 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 26, 2018, 09:07:28 PM
Not as far as I can see, I'll write to him to ask if it's going to happen any time soon.

He just sent an email, telling that vol.I may be purchased at his website now.

www.colinbooth.co.uk

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 27, 2018, 03:38:48 PM
I just started listening to Masaaki Suzuki. I think his WTC is marvelous (just as his partitas are). I'm not finished with a first listen to it all yet, though. Suzuki is what? Grand. Emphasizing depth of beauty. Or perhaps my reaction is colored by knowing he's a Christian interested in Protestant themes of Gods' grace, etc. Even being a nonbeliever I'm glad for this perspective in/on Bach. I wonder how his organ-playing and cantata-conducting influence his cembalo performance style. How do people view his style here? It's not a down-to-earth way of playing it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 27, 2018, 08:57:42 PM
Suzuki works closely with Yo Tomita at Queen's University Belfast, and his essays in the booklets are well worth reading. I like the Partitas and the WTC too, passionate and intense performances, always well recorded. His organ music and his cantatas are passionate and intense too. The recently released Musical Offering is, I think, very stimulating, with a particularly valuable booklet.

Suzuki was a Koopman pupil, and in the harpsichord music, I think it sometimes shows. The tendency to use ornaments rather than agogocs, the arrestingly evident virtuosity, the way he moves the music forward and resists allowing silences to let the listener digest what he's heard.

I'll be interested to hear what you make of his French Suites, which so far I've found challenging.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 27, 2018, 09:38:34 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 27, 2018, 08:57:42 PM
Suzuki works closely with Yo Tomita at Queen's University Belfast, and his essays in the booklets are well worth reading. I like the Partitas and the WTC too, passionate and intense performances, always well recorded. His organ music and his cantatas are passionate and intense too. The recently released Musical Offering is, I think, very stimulating, with a particularly valuable booklet.

Suzuki was a Koopman pupil, and in the harpsichord music, I think it sometimes shows. The tendency to use ornaments rather than agogocs, the arrestingly evident virtuosity, the way he moves the music forward and resists allowing silences to let the listener digest what he's heard.

I'll be interested to hear what you make of his French Suites, which so far I've found challenging.
I didn't realize he did the suites but his style doesn't seem suited for it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on November 27, 2018, 11:42:31 PM
This post is more Suzuki than WTC related, but I like the man's Anno Domini 1998 approach towards Bach more than I do his Anno Domini 2018 approach.
A certain depth and gravitas has gone lost during the years, IMHO.

This is mainly based on my listening experiences with cantatas, and some organ and harpsichord recordings.

The last 2 live concerts I attended though (organ Martinikerk & KV 427 of Mozart in concert hall) were great, especially the latter.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 28, 2018, 02:36:55 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 27, 2018, 11:42:31 PM
This post is more Suzuki than WTC related, but I like the man's Anno Domini 1998 approach towards Bach more than I do his Anno Domini 2018 approach.
A certain depth and gravitas has gone lost during the years, IMHO.

This is mainly based on my listening experiences with cantatas, and some organ and harpsichord recordings.

The last 2 live concerts I attended though (organ Martinikerk & KV 427 of Mozart in concert hall) were great, especially the latter.
I'm not sure I get your idea. Can you expand it? His partitas were recorded in between, in 2002, and they are in my top 3 or 4 favorites. I saw him a few years ago in concert playing Sweelinck and it was amazing. I never liked his cantatas but I'm not big into choral music anyway. I like Kuijken because I'm more interested in interplay between instruments and voice, and color, than in choral grandeur.
I'm trying out his 2008 WTC II. Not sure if it's comparably less deep or grand. Is that your opinion? Or do you think both compare unfavorably to his earlier output?
Honestly, I'm transported by both books so far.
Lately,
I've been feeling that the cembalo is a superior instrument for Bach. It's something to do with voicing. Piano tones don't melt together. They ring against each other. The methods of dealing with the tone aesthetic of the piano seems to require or encourage something else. I'm not sure what it is. It's the percussiveness and wetness. With Suzuki, the voices flow and compliment each other. With a great cembalo style and sound, the way of producing drama and depth and beauty is a little different. Piano can become tedious so easily. Some of the pianists, even Schiff, the more I listen the more tired I get. Whereas with Suzuki, Van Asperen, Verlet, the more I listen, the more I find is there. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on November 28, 2018, 04:48:24 AM
By cembalo do you mean harpsichord? 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on November 28, 2018, 04:50:32 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 27, 2018, 11:42:31 PM
This post is more Suzuki than WTC related, but I like the man's Anno Domini 1998 approach towards Bach more than I do his Anno Domini 2018 approach.
A certain depth and gravitas has gone lost during the years, IMHO.

This is mainly based on my listening experiences with cantatas, and some organ and harpsichord recordings.

The last 2 live concerts I attended though (organ Martinikerk & KV 427 of Mozart in concert hall) were great, especially the latter.

Seriously: "Anno Domini"?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Traverso on November 28, 2018, 05:18:27 AM
Quote from: San Antone on November 28, 2018, 04:48:24 AM
By cembalo do you mean harpsichord?

Its the same. ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on November 28, 2018, 05:22:22 AM
Quote from: Traverso on November 28, 2018, 05:18:27 AM
Its the same. ;)

that has always been my understanding, but I wondered if there was some reason why he used the term cembalo ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on November 28, 2018, 06:39:33 AM
Quote from: milk on November 28, 2018, 02:36:55 AM
I'm not sure I get your idea. Can you expand it? His partitas were recorded in between, in 2002, and they are in my top 3 or 4 favorites. I saw him a few years ago in concert playing Sweelinck and it was amazing. I never liked his cantatas but I'm not big into choral music anyway. I like Kuijken because I'm more interested in interplay between instruments and voice, and color, than in choral grandeur.
I'm trying out his 2008 WTC II. Not sure if it's comparably less deep or grand. Is that your opinion? Or do you think both compare unfavorably to his earlier output?
Honestly, I'm transported by both books so far.
Lately,
I've been feeling that the cembalo is a superior instrument for Bach. It's something to do with voicing. Piano tones don't melt together. They ring against each other. The methods of dealing with the tone aesthetic of the piano seems to require or encourage something else. I'm not sure what it is. It's the percussiveness and wetness. With Suzuki, the voices flow and compliment each other. With a great cembalo style and sound, the way of producing drama and depth and beauty is a little different. Piano can become tedious so easily. Some of the pianists, even Schiff, the more I listen the more tired I get. Whereas with Suzuki, Van Asperen, Verlet, the more I listen, the more I find is there. 


I'm sorry, I can't really expand it, because it's been some time since I last listened to Suzuki, and probably also because I'm not that much of an analytical listener to music. And I find it very difficult to elaborate my listening experiences. (What the h€ck am I actually doing here at GMG? ;))
And my point(s) about Suzuki are indeed a bit off-topic, since I mostly listen to his vocal and organ recordings. But, in general, I've been experiencing a slightly decreasing enthousiasm for his recordings during the last 2 decades.
I.c. the instruments: I feel the same way. But these are personal matters and preferences, of course.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Traverso on November 28, 2018, 06:56:50 AM
Quote from: San Antone on November 28, 2018, 05:22:22 AM
that has always been my understanding, but I wondered if there was some reason why he used the term cembalo ...

In France they say , "CLAVECIN " in the Netherlands "KLAVECIMBEL " CEMBALO is Italian  ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on November 28, 2018, 09:42:17 AM
Quote from: San Antone on November 28, 2018, 04:50:32 AM
Seriously: "Anno Domini"?
Feel free to count according to years since the creation of the world, Shire Reckoning, the prophet travelling to Medina, or "in the second year of the 45th President". Most of us probably prefer Anno Domini...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on November 28, 2018, 11:53:03 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 28, 2018, 09:42:17 AM
Feel free to count according to years since the creation of the world, Shire Reckoning, the prophet travelling to Medina, or "in the second year of the 45th President". Most of us probably prefer Anno Domini...

Do we really need to use A.D. or C.E. in order to date recordings?  Oh, and I applaud your vote for cultural hegemony.  ::)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 28, 2018, 04:48:24 PM
Quote from: Traverso on November 28, 2018, 06:56:50 AM
In France they say , "CLAVECIN " in the Netherlands "KLAVECIMBEL " CEMBALO is Italian  ;)
I find cembalo easier to type for some reason and, here in Japan, they use it I think because it's the easiest to say and write in katakana. The A.D stuff went over my head.
Thread duty:
right now I'm listening to a little Barenboim. Some of it I like for it's emotional reach. So far I don't mind the piano "tricks" so much. I imagine it's polarizing with some people unreservedly hating it? I like how he lays off and on certain notes to stress kinds of emotional attention.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: GioCar on November 28, 2018, 08:19:41 PM
Quote from: Traverso on November 28, 2018, 06:56:50 AM
In France they say , "CLAVECIN " in the Netherlands "KLAVECIMBEL " CEMBALO is Italian  ;)

Actually the most common word in current Italian is CLAVICEMBALO.
CEMBALO sounds a bit archaic and some people among the non-classical music lovers won't even know what exactly is.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 29, 2018, 01:47:31 AM
Quote from: Traverso on November 28, 2018, 06:56:50 AM
In France they say , "CLAVECIN " in the Netherlands "KLAVECIMBEL " CEMBALO is Italian  ;)

Most Scandinavian tongues call it CEMBALO.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on November 29, 2018, 04:10:24 AM
In modern German it is also the Italian word Cembalo (Bach still wrote "Clavicymbel" on the title of Clavierübung II). The word seems so common in sufficiently many languages that one could assume that it would be understood even by anglophones.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2018, 04:17:33 AM
As an anglophone I can report that whenever I see the word cembalo I immediately think of a cimbalom.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 30, 2018, 01:11:02 AM
what are some other weird old performances like Fischer or Feinberg? I find these old guys so weird. Listening to Feinberg reminds me how radical an interpretation can be. The idea of finding music and having no idea what it meant in context is kind of fascinating. So, does anyone here know of other old (or new I guess but more old) recordings that are out to lunch in interesting ways? Feinberg is the jarring shocking and often thrilling Bach I've ever hears. Anyone else make you scratch your head and go, "oh, they used to think of Bach like THAAT!!!!" 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 30, 2018, 04:00:45 PM
(http://i.maniadb.com/images/album/402/402325_1_f.jpg) nothing radical here but it's interesting to hear his choices. Maybe this is cantabile? It seems to me to be very "sung" and with emphasis on the bucolic. Nothing too dark here as after listening to, admittedly, a few sets. He's had clarity on his side I think.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 30, 2018, 08:51:18 PM
Quote from: milk on November 30, 2018, 01:11:02 AM
what are some other weird old performances like Fischer or Feinberg? I find these old guys so weird. Listening to Feinberg reminds me how radical an interpretation can be. The idea of finding music and having no idea what it meant in context is kind of fascinating. So, does anyone here know of other old (or new I guess but more old) recordings that are out to lunch in interesting ways? Feinberg is the jarring shocking and often thrilling Bach I've ever hears. Anyone else make you scratch your head and go, "oh, they used to think of Bach like THAAT!!!!"

The most strange on piano is Wanda  Landowska, who even went as far as to prepare the instrument in a speacial way. And in a very different manner, there's John Lewis.

Maybe Arthur Loesser too, it's a long time since I heard it.

There are some old
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 30, 2018, 11:56:39 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 30, 2018, 08:51:18 PM
The most strange on piano is Wanda  Landowska, who even went as far as to prepare the instrument in a speacial way. And in a very different manner, there's John Lewis.

Maybe Arthur Loesser too, it's a long time since I heard it.

There are some old
This is different from the "harpsichord" performance she did?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on December 01, 2018, 12:47:49 AM
Quote from: San Antone on November 28, 2018, 11:53:03 AM
Do we really need to use A.D. or C.E. in order to date recordings?  [...]

Come on man. Get a life. Is it really necessary to nag about these things Anno Domini 2018?

And your name, San Antone... really?
Do you really need to make clear that you self-pronounced yourself holy?

Really.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: king ubu on December 04, 2018, 12:33:41 AM
It's always "Cembalo" in Switzerland, no matter if A.D. 1990 or A.D. 2018  :P

Now regaring the WTC played on cembalo, I'm not that well equipped yet, but I like Hantaï (book 1 only so far, right?) and Rousset. Still need to check out Schornsheim, which I acquired sometime last year, I think - too much on the piles  ???
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 04, 2018, 01:03:30 AM
Quote from: milk on November 30, 2018, 11:56:39 PM
This is different from the "harpsichord" performance she did?

She never did a harpsichord performance.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 04, 2018, 02:14:56 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 04, 2018, 01:03:30 AM
She never did a harpsichord performance.
You're saying her weird sounding WTC is some kind of piano? That thing is weird whatever it is. I thought she had some special heavy harpsichord-like monstrosity built for loud sound? Maybe that's for her Goldberg?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 04, 2018, 02:26:20 AM
Quote from: milk on December 04, 2018, 02:14:56 AM
You're saying her weird sounding WTC is some kind of piano? That thing is weird whatever it is. I thought she had some special heavy harpsichord-like monstrosity built for loud sound? Maybe that's for her Goldberg?

Here's an interesting article about Landowska's instrument

Quote from: Mahan Esfahani https://www.mahanesfahani.com/news/musings-on-wanda-landowskaA Harpsichordist's Scattered Personal Musings on Wanda Landowska.

Writing toward the end of her life, Wanda Landowska took a moment to remark on the mid-twentieth century fixation with "authenticity" in music. With the elan and a polemical style born of a deep love for her mission as a musician that so typified many of her utterances, she wrote:

"This sobriety has for its aim the objective presentation of the text without any personal involvement. But is not this tone of indigent indifference another roundabout way of being subjective, since it is deliberate and merely a simulation of indifference?...Rare are the interpreters who know how to take liberties. But rarer are the listeners who know that certain liberties were laws and customs at one time. Usually the ignorance of these people makes them aggressive....The tragedy in the interpretation of music of the past lies in the fact that is confined to concert halls, congresses of musicology, or conservatory classes. Let us bring it out of these respectable and dull places; let us air it; let us shake prejudices, and let us revive the dead letter of old treatises. Music needs air, sunlight, and liberty to be alive. It is then only that it will impart to us surprising secrets."

And so, it is perhaps with the same feeling of reverence for the past and an awareness of our own epoch that one must approach Landowska's work and legacy – for she, too, is now a "period piece." While being conscious of those liberties and mannerisms that were, in her words, "customs at one [or her!] time," we can still, one hopes, unblock ourselves from the self-satisfaction of our own era to listen to the beautiful message of this fervent pioneer.

It is all too easy to lapse into platitudes when speaking from the personal "I" as a musician. We performers are supposed to keep our mouths shut and express ourselves through our performances. Fair enough. But the experience of playing Landowska's harpsichord is, for me, an event of deep emotional significance that goes beyond that of most concerts and recitals. By choosing to perform works that were associated with Landowska's career as a touring and recording artist, I am, in effect, inviting the audience to my own personal conversation with one of my idols. I must have spent many hours if not days listening to Landowska's recordings, collecting her 78s and LPs, making notes of her registrations, and trying to understand and digest her commanding sense of rhythm and gift for agogic rhetoric. Even as I have gone on to embrace instruments and technical approaches vastly different from hers, I am still in awe of her illuminating understanding of the harpsichord as a medium and her deep sense of the spirit and language of Baroque music. Her achievements in this field are even more remarkable when one considers that she virtually invented her own instrument and the technical approach she used to make it come alive.

But to imitate her own performance style? This I simply cannot do – nor would she have approved. For all her talk about playing Bach "his way," she herself decried slavish imitation and the abnegation of the self, exclaiming:

"If Rameau himself would rise from his grave to demand of me some changes in my interpretation of his Dauphine, I would answer, 'You gave birth to it; it is beautiful. But now leave me alone with it. You have nothing more to say; go away!...The idea of objectivity is utopian. Can the music of any composer maintain its integrity after passing through the living complex – sanguine or phlegmatic – of this or that interpreter? Can an interpreter restrict himself to remaining in the shadow of the author? What a commonplace! What a joke!"

Landowska was, like any artist, a product of her time. She was speaking to listeners both weary of the grandiosity of hyper-Romanticism and not yet ready for a total transformation of their listening sensibilities. Were she to have embraced total authenticity in the historicist sense, she probably would not have gotten very far. But that she was able to associate with the harpsichord the aura and professionalism of the distinguished concert pianists and other performers who were her contemporaries was itself an achievement, for she brought the harpsichord out of the purview of the dead and, upon her death in 1959, left it as an established member of the brotherhood of concert instruments.

With the hindsight afforded by living in an age in which historical performance and the building of instruments on historical principles are established and aided by a much more nuanced view of the gifts of the past, we would do well to appreciate why, perhaps more than any other figure, Wanda Landowska is the name most commonly associated with the harpsichord and its repertoire. How can we blame she who first introduced us to the food of the gods? Again, Landowska was never interested in "authenticity" as a museum-piece in the way that we understand that term. But her way of communicating the vitality of the music of the past for our own time was nothing short of authentic. To this day, I know of no recording or performance that has taken me in mind and spirit to Elizabethan England like her brief 78-rpm side of Byrd's Wolsey's Wilde, or any interpretation of daring and subtlety that comes close to her peerless recording of Chambonnières' Chaconne in F, which contains in it all the modern consciousness of nostalgia for a world gone by (and that her Chambonnières is spoken in the accent of a modern makes it, if anything, even more beautiful)! It is with a sense of great honour that I play this harpsichord of an artist who gave the world back its musical heritage.

The Clavecin Pleyel of 1912.

For harpsichordists who have come of age after Frank Hubbard's ground-breaking Three Centuries of Harpsichord Making (1965), the clavecin Pleyel is indeed a strange bird. Take the pedals, for instance. The provision of these seven pedals to make quick registration changes resulted, most likely, from an early twentieth-century fixation with the idea that dynamics in the Baroque period must have been effected through the addition and subtraction of registers and colours in the manner of nineteenth-century organ performance. This idea of "terraced dynamics," unfortunately still in currency to-day, was probably first articulated in the writings of Albert Schweitzer. So writes Schweitzer in his now-legendary Jean-Sébastien Bach, le musicien-poète (1904):

"Bach is an organist rather than a 'klavierist.' His music is more architectonic than 'sentimental.' That is to say, his feelings express themselves in a kind of acoustic design....Bach's music is Gothic. Just as in Gothic architecture the great plan develops out of the simple motive, but enfolds itself in the richest detail instead of in rigid line, and only makes its effect when every detail is truly vital, so does the impression a Bach work makes on the hearer depend on the player communicating to him the massive outline and the details together, both equally clear and equally full of life." (355-363)

For all these occasional missteps, Schweitzer's understanding of Bach and his music is the basis for our own modern appreciation, and it is as a visionary and a pioneer that we must revere him. Others are consigned to less fortunate legacies, and for good reason. In the profoundly misguided Interpretation of Bach's Keyboard Works (published at the alarmingly late date of 1960 while across the ocean Gustav Leonhardt was ordering his J.D. Dulcken copy from Skowroneck of Bremen!), the scholar and harpsichordist Erwin Bodky wrote:

"[C]rescendo and diminuendo cannot be produced an a harpsichord. The boredom created by such a deficiency was early recognized, and since no change in the tone volume could be achieved by mechanical devices, the only way to give the instrument any variety of sound was to add more sets of strings....'' (6)

Nowhere throughout this long and tedious tome, which entered the world of obsolescence upon its first printing, does Bodky mention anything meaningful about the use of articulation and phrasing to effect dynamic changes which we now know are possible on harpsichords built on historical principles. Rather, he devotes tens of pages to registration problems having to do with foot-technique at the pedals; in a sub-chapter on the performance of Bach on the piano, he even calls for the performance of Bach's works with two pianists in order to properly execute Bach's registrational intentions! Because they were unable to understand why their modern copies of harpsichords were incapable of dynamic shadings based on finger-technique alone, many an early music pioneer wasted much time to such straw men.

Why did Landowska and the engineers at Pleyel also decide to make the various registers of the harpsichord fire off at once instead of being staggered in the manner of period instruments? Why the use of leather plectra which wear out so quickly? Why the insistence on a 16′ register on an instrument scaled for two 8′ and one 4' registers? Why the totally useless system of 'fine tuning' which is the plague of any harpsichord technician and tuner? These are questions that hopefully can be answered in what I hope will be a new age for a re-evaluation of the early years of the revival of Baroque music. Poking fun at man's early efforts in anything is, after all, far easier than meaningful, critical analysis. But for its time, the Pleyel harpsichord was really one of the very few options for performing, touring, and recording pioneers in the harpsichord revival. Compared to the Serien-Instrumenten of Neupert, Wittmayer, and their lesser contemporaries, based – loosely, one might add – on the spurious 'Bach-Fluegel' in the Musikinstrumenten-Museum in Berlin, the Pleyel is a work of magnificent, if misguided, beauty. In having come to know the Pleyel better, one is filled with even deeper respect for Landowska and her work – indeed, in spite of some of the Pleyel's great qualities (its aesthetic beauty as a work of piano engineering, to name but one example) only a musician of true greatness could have made any semblance of music on such an instrument.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on December 04, 2018, 02:39:23 AM
Landowska's WTC was recorded in 1949 and 1951. As far as I know, her instrument has always been called a harpsichord, yet a very special one of course. Those Pleyels were large, heavily built harpsichords with a 16-foot stop and owed much to piano construction.
I've never seen her recordings on those instruments being mentioned as being performed on a prepared piano.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/06/69/QHuoWOqL_o.jpg)

Mengelberg did use a prepared continuo piano for his Bach performances. He had drawing pins put on the hammers.
And Gould used a prepared piano for his Inventionen & Sinfonien. The recordings became known as the hiccup recordings.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 04, 2018, 03:27:03 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 04, 2018, 02:26:20 AM
Here's an interesting article about Landowska's instrument
"only a musician of true greatness could have made any semblance of music on such an instrument." Ha ha. I wish I could deal with it because no doubt she's doing something interesting. But that sound! I just can't take too much of it. BTW: I had this on vinyl before I left America in 2005. I think it sounded better that way. Or maybe it was the ambience of my crappy apartment in Portland, Oregon.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 04, 2018, 03:29:10 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 04, 2018, 02:39:23 AM
As far as I know, her instrument has always been called a harpsichord...
That's how I remember it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 04, 2018, 03:37:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 04, 2018, 02:26:20 AM
Here's an interesting article about Landowska's instrument
The article is interesting. And the result in terms of aesthetics seem truly awful. Landowska makes up for it with inventive interpretations but it's still pretty hard to listen to. I can't manage it for more that a few minutes.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 04, 2018, 04:04:09 AM
The thing I find a bit objectionable is that Landowska's credited with starting something called The Harpsichord Revival. I think the Pleyel is too far removed from a real harpsichord to be worthy of the name. In my opinion the real source of the harpsichord revival were Martin Skowroneck, Fritz Neumeyer and Gustav Leonhardt, and indeed Walcha in his second (DG) WTC.

I haven't heard Landowska's Pleyel except on her recordings, and on that basis I don't agree with Esfahani when he says that it's "magnificent" compared to other instruments of the same period -- I much prefer the Rainer Schütze harpsichord that Kirkpatrick used for his second Scarlatti CD, for example. But Esfahani's no fool, and my response could just be mainly due to the recordings, and the way Landowska plays it.

I think that some of the Landowska WTC was recorded in her living room, not a studio, and this may account for the sound quality.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 05, 2018, 01:24:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 04, 2018, 04:04:09 AM
The thing I find a bit objectionable is that Landowska's credited with starting something called The Harpsichord Revival. I think the Pleyel is too far removed from a real harpsichord to be worthy of the name. In my opinion the real source of the harpsichord revival were Martin Skowroneck, Fritz Neumeyer and Gustav Leonhardt, and indeed Walcha in his second (DG) WTC.

I haven't heard Landowska's Pleyel except on her recordings, and on that basis I don't agree with Esfahani when he says that it's "magnificent" compared to other instruments of the same period -- I much prefer the Rainer Schütze harpsichord that Kirkpatrick used for his second Scarlatti CD, for example. But Esfahani's no fool, and my response could just be mainly due to the recordings, and the way Landowska plays it.

I think that some of the Landowska WTC was recorded in her living room, not a studio, and this may account for the sound quality.
that's interesting. In her living room! Was the instrument her idea?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on December 05, 2018, 03:20:07 AM
Quote from: milk on December 05, 2018, 01:24:23 AM
that's interesting. In her living room! Was the instrument her idea?

The 16' register was incorporated into Pleyel Harpsichords from 1912 at the request and following the proposals, of Wanda Landowska". Above all, Landowska — as a concert player — wanted an instrument which had sufficient power to be heard in a concert hall and that was robust enough to withstand frequent moving. The Concert Harpsichord finally made by Pleyel in 1912 to her specification inevitably owed much to the piano-maker's art, but should not be dismissed on that account: after all, their art was only an evolution of the harpsichord-maker's craft.

http://www.harpsichord.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/pleyel.pdf
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on December 05, 2018, 03:31:03 AM
Of course the Pleyel is not a harpsichord as we know it, but yes, given the fact that apparently Landowska's first 'harpsichord' was already built in 1912, one could say that she was the starting point of the revaluation of the harpsichord(-kinda instrument ;)).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 05, 2018, 04:03:26 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 05, 2018, 03:20:07 AM
The 16' register was incorporated into Pleyel Harpsichords from 1912 at the request and following the proposals, of Wanda Landowska". Above all, Landowska — as a concert player — wanted an instrument which had sufficient power to be heard in a concert hall and that was robust enough to withstand frequent moving. The Concert Harpsichord finally made by Pleyel in 1912 to her specification inevitably owed much to the piano-maker's art, but should not be dismissed on that account: after all, their art was only an evolution of the harpsichord-maker's craft.

http://www.harpsichord.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/pleyel.pdf
Sorry I should have reread it. I wish I could appreciate it more. I have a feeling there's something interesting in her performance. There was a time when I was listening to it but I've forgotten it and now I can't take the sound.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 05, 2018, 04:25:29 AM
My own feeling about Landowska's way of making music is that it became very much less interesting after the war, that the early recordings are entertaining enough, a sense of movement forward and rhythm and even joie de vivre, if you can tolerate the instrument.

The one essential thing I think is the Scarlatti, not for anything she does, but for the sound of the anti aircraft guns in the distance.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on December 05, 2018, 09:21:44 AM
Quote from: milk on December 05, 2018, 04:03:26 AM
Sorry I should have reread it. I wish I could appreciate it more. I have a feeling there's something interesting in her performance. There was a time when I was listening to it but I've forgotten it and now I can't take the sound.

No reason to apologise.
And I'm not posting the links to promote her performances/recordings, but just for information, and for the fact that she deserves her place in the, say, pre-HIP movement. The latter doesn't mean one has to appreciate her playing and/or legacy.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 07, 2018, 02:16:53 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 05, 2018, 09:21:44 AM
No reason to apologise.
And I'm not posting the links to promote her performances/recordings, but just for information, and for the fact that she deserves her place in the, say, pre-HIP movement. The latter doesn't mean one has to appreciate her playing and/or legacy.
Yes and I find her interesting even if I developed and allergy to the Pleyel. She's worth knowing about. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 07, 2018, 02:18:42 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 05, 2018, 04:25:29 AM
My own feeling about Landowska's way of making music is that it became very much less interesting after the war, that the early recordings are entertaining enough, a sense of movement forward and rhythm and even joie de vivre, if you can tolerate the instrument.

The one essential thing I think is the Scarlatti, not for anything she does, but for the sound of the anti aircraft guns in the distance.
That's amazing. She really had a life. I guess many did back then if they survived the times. I recall perhaps there's a doc on youtube about her. Didn't the U.S. army search for and find her one of her instruments?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 07, 2018, 07:53:49 AM
Quote from: milk on December 07, 2018, 02:18:42 AM
That's amazing. She really had a life. I guess many did back then if they survived the times. I recall perhaps there's a doc on youtube about her. Didn't the U.S. army search for and find her one of her instruments?

Her biography is interesting, not least because of her relationships with Natalie Clifford Barney and Denise Restout, the latter wrote a book about her I think -  I've not read it.

I know someone who used to live in St Lieu la Forêt when he was a teenager and who took some lessons in her house, which by that time was a music school. The last I heard about it was that it was under threat of being sold off for something completely unmusical, Skip Sempé I believe was trying to muster funds to save it and make it into some sort of museum. I just quickly googled it and, without anything more than a quick browse, it looks like  it's still a college - though one that seems to be in trouble with the educational inspectorate in France - and the teachers are on strike.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Pat B on December 07, 2018, 09:37:30 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 04, 2018, 04:04:09 AM
The thing I find a bit objectionable is that Landowska's credited with starting something called The Harpsichord Revival. I think the Pleyel is too far removed from a real harpsichord to be worthy of the name.

"Revival harpsichord" is the term for this instrument and similar ones. They are certainly not pianos or prepared pianos.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 07, 2018, 10:04:51 AM
Quote from: Pat B on December 07, 2018, 09:37:30 AM
"Revival harpsichord" is the term for this instrument and similar ones. They are certainly not pianos or prepared pianos.

They're plucking pianos.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: JBS on December 07, 2018, 10:18:49 AM
Quote from: milk on December 07, 2018, 02:18:42 AM
That's amazing. She really had a life. I guess many did back then if they survived the times. I recall perhaps there's a doc on youtube about her. Didn't the U.S. army search for and find her one of her instruments?

This book would be relevant (that's Landowska on the cover)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51m7DKpgMlL.jpg)
Although the focus, and the first half, of the book is on Chopin's sojourn in the Balearics, composing the Preludes while using a locally made piano.  Landowska eventually found and restored the piano, only to see it (and much else of her collection) was seized by the Nazis after she fled to the US.  That story is what makes up the second half of the book.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 07, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
Quote from: JBS on December 07, 2018, 10:18:49 AM
This book would be relevant (that's Landowska on the cover)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51m7DKpgMlL.jpg)
Although the focus, and the first half, of the book is on Chopin's sojourn in the Balearics, composing the Preludes while using a locally made piano.  Landowska eventually found and restored the piano, only to see it (and much else of her collection) was seized by the Nazis after she fled to the US.  That story is what makes up the second half of the book.
Fled the Nazis, lived (romantically?) with a women AND was friends with William F. Buckley! Who were her prominent students? But I will look it up. Edit: Her partner Denise Restout was quite an expert on baroque and a teacher. I wonder what legacy came from them and if there are any famous keyboardists who studied with them.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Pat B on December 08, 2018, 12:47:23 PM
Quote from: milk on December 07, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
Fled the Nazis, lived (romantically?) with a women AND was friends with William F. Buckley! Who were her prominent students? But I will look it up. Edit: Her partner Denise Restout was quite an expert on baroque and a teacher. I wonder what legacy came from them and if there are any famous keyboardists who studied with them.

Landowska's pupils included Kirkpatrick and Puyana. Her grand-pupils include Hogwood, Gilbert, and Verlet, and her great-grandpupils include Immerseel, Moroney, Baumont, Rousset, and many others.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 08, 2018, 01:02:02 PM
Kirkpatrick didn't have a high opinion of Landowska's musicianship.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 08, 2018, 04:00:14 PM
Quote from: Pat B on December 08, 2018, 12:47:23 PM
Landowska's pupils included Kirkpatrick and Puyana. Her grand-pupils include Hogwood, Gilbert, and Verlet, and her great-grandpupils include Immerseel, Moroney, Baumont, Rousset, and many others.

Fortunately most of Landowska's pupils and grand-pupils rejected the revival harpsichord as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 08, 2018, 04:57:39 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 08, 2018, 01:02:02 PM
Kirkpatrick didn't have a high opinion of Landowska's musicianship.
I imagine that once HIP started creeping in, the next generation would develop a radical allergy to her. It's understandable. Looking back, there's still something interesting about her performances. They do seem eccentric with the benefit of hindsight, right? Are her performances somewhat romantic, transferred onto her pleyel? It's really hard for me to listen to - I just don't like the vibe of the Pleyel.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 08, 2018, 10:28:23 PM
Quote from: Marc on December 05, 2018, 03:20:07 AM
The 16' register was incorporated into Pleyel Harpsichords from 1912 at the request and following the proposals, of Wanda Landowska". Above all, Landowska — as a concert player — wanted an instrument which had sufficient power to be heard in a concert hall and that was robust enough to withstand frequent moving. The Concert Harpsichord finally made by Pleyel in 1912 to her specification inevitably owed much to the piano-maker's art, but should not be dismissed on that account: after all, their art was only an evolution of the harpsichord-maker's craft.

http://www.harpsichord.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/pleyel.pdf

I've heard the bold bit said before, but I don't think it makes any sense at all. I've heard many real harpsichord concerts, Ruckers type instruments, in large halls, and there's just no problem about hearing the instrument. I suppose it all depends on the hall. And as far as moving a real harpsichord goes, as far as I know it doesn't present much of a problem - they're  light, a couple of people can manage one easily.

I suspect Landowska's real reason for commissioning the Pleyel was that she wanted the volume controls.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 09, 2018, 06:04:21 AM
One harpsichordist who still uses a Pleyal is Wladyslaw Klosiewicz. Here's a bit of Francois Couperin




https://www.youtube.com/v/btSRnPyZOXo

and here's a whole recital with Bach and others

https://www.youtube.com/v/0OEV_06qW0I

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 10, 2018, 01:22:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 09, 2018, 06:04:21 AM
One harpsichordist who still uses a Pleyal is Wladyslaw Klosiewicz. Here's a bit of Francois Couperin




https://www.youtube.com/v/btSRnPyZOXo

and here's a whole recital with Bach and others

https://www.youtube.com/v/0OEV_06qW0I
What do you think? I think it's interesting in a way but also somewhat grating. I have his Froberger recording which I remember liking though. I wonder if it's on this.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 12, 2018, 08:39:13 AM
Quote from: milk on December 10, 2018, 01:22:08 AM
What do you think? I think it's interesting in a way but also somewhat grating. I have his Froberger recording which I remember liking though. I wonder if it's on this.

I tend to agree.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Pat B on December 12, 2018, 10:16:26 AM
Quote from: milk on December 10, 2018, 01:22:08 AM
What do you think? I think it's interesting in a way but also somewhat grating. I have his Froberger recording which I remember liking though. I wonder if it's on this.

That's a lot of sustain in the first section. Maybe it fits the program, but to my ears it is overboard for the music. I enjoyed the rest quite a bit though, regardless of its level of authenticity.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 03, 2019, 08:26:13 PM
Listening to Till Fellner today and I'm finding a lot of inspiration in it. It's the first time I've heard of him. Is it true that he hasn't done book 2 yet?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Ras on January 04, 2019, 10:09:46 AM
Quote from: milk on January 03, 2019, 08:26:13 PM
Listening to Till Fellner today and I'm finding a lot of inspiration in it. It's the first time I've heard of him. Is it true that he hasn't done book 2 yet?

Yes, that is true, but he did record : Bach: Inventionen Und Sinfonien/Frenc Suite V -  also for ECM:


[asin]B001PS0EL6[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 04, 2019, 04:44:07 PM
Quote from: Ras on January 04, 2019, 10:09:46 AM
Yes, that is true, but he did record : Bach: Inventionen Und Sinfonien/Frenc Suite V -  also for ECM:


[asin]B001PS0EL6[/asin]
This is lively. Looking forward to his WTC II.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Ras on January 07, 2019, 05:33:41 AM
Hi milk
Just in case you don't know: 

There is another pianist/harpsichordist on ECM the jazz-legend Keith Jarrett.

His recording of Bach WTC 1 on piano stands out in a strange way: by not standing out! At least that was my reaction to it when I first heard it. To me it sounds as if he has tried to make a "nake" or "objective" as opposed to a "subjective" romantic interpretation. (Try before buying though if you can)

[asin]B0000260BE[/asin]

Beware if like me you are "harpsichord-challenged" - K. Jarrett's WTC book 2 on the same label is played on harpsichord.

His Handel piano recording is my favorite in that repertoire:

[asin]B000025XCW[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 08, 2019, 01:41:01 AM
Quote from: Ras on January 07, 2019, 05:33:41 AM
Hi milk
Just in case you don't know: 

There is another pianist/harpsichordist on ECM the jazz-legend Keith Jarrett.

His recording of Bach WTC 1 on piano stands out in a strange way: by not standing out! At least that was my reaction to it when I first heard it. To me it sounds as if he has tried to make a "nake" or "objective" as opposed to a "subjective" romantic interpretation. (Try before buying though if you can)

[asin]B0000260BE[/asin]
Thanks! I'd especially like to check out his Handel!

Beware if like me you are "harpsichord-challenged" - K. Jarrett's WTC book 2 on the same label is played on harpsichord.

His Handel piano recording is my favorite in that repertoire:

[asin]B000025XCW[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on January 09, 2019, 01:20:42 AM
I'm a big admirer of Jarrett's solo jazz playing, but his forays into baroque music seem strangely pale and bloodless to me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 09, 2019, 03:55:00 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 09, 2019, 01:20:42 AM
I'm a big admirer of Jarrett's solo jazz playing, but his forays into baroque music seem strangely pale and bloodless to me.

My view is that what he does is quite charming, but somehow it's more like hearing an amateur play that a professional -- there's not the same sort of nuanced and expressive and bold and imaginative voice-relationships and attacks and ornaments that you get with Egarr or Asperen.  And the things don't sound so good either IMO -- I don't know if it's the way he plays  or the way it's recorded or just the instrument he uses or what. But the almost naive lyrical approach is charming. But really, someone who had only heard his French Suites or WTC would have no idea how much more multi-layered, how much deeper, the music.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on May 01, 2019, 01:59:51 PM
(https://www.resonusclassics.com/freedownload/RES10239_cover_300dpi.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on June 24, 2019, 09:38:37 AM
Regarding Feinberg's WTC- does anyone have suggestions for the best sounding digital transfer? I chose the Talents of Russia after only hearing the very poor sounding Classical Records CD release. But the Talents of Russia has a stereo ambience effect applied to it, along with filtering the high end. An unknown sourced vinyl rip I have sounds more faithful piano tone wise and doesn't have the annoying ambience filter, it is in true mono.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 03, 2019, 09:49:45 AM
I think this one on soundcloud is worth a listen, modern piano and I suspect close to equal. Some very pianistic reinterpretations maybe,eg the D major fugue.

https://soundcloud.com/user-843628186/sets/bach-well-tempered-clavier-bk

I don't know who John Lewis Grant is but he is a musician.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 10, 2019, 01:45:34 AM
Listening to Feinberg today, one I'd always treasured, and I found it unbearable. The dynamic changes are just so jarring and ugly to me. I wonder which recordings of WTC on piano use the least dynamics while using the most agogics? But I guess maybe I'm just looking down on or complaining about the instrument. Woodward seems a good candidate for a more tolerable approach on piano.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2019, 03:03:25 AM
Quote from: milk on July 10, 2019, 01:45:34 AM
Listening to Feinberg today, one I'd always treasured, and I found it unbearable. The dynamic changes are just so jarring and ugly to me. I wonder which recordings of WTC on piano use the least dynamics while using the most agogics? But I guess maybe I'm just looking down on or complaining about the instrument. Woodward seems a good candidate for a more tolerable approach on piano.

Have you heard Hans Jorg Schaefer?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Iota on July 10, 2019, 03:31:06 AM
From what I know of Feinberg in WTC he seems a fairly uninhibited tone painter and certainly uses agogics aplenty, but all to great effect I think. He lets the music dictate the bending and swaying of tempi and dynamics, something like seaweed floating in the current, it doesn't seem imposed or cosmetic. Woodward certainly beats a very different drum, more contained but immensely expressive I find.
With Bach's keyboard music I find mood can dictate what jars or not, a style of playing that sounds really wonderful in the morning for example, can be not at all what I want to hear in the evening.
Not so long ago I ordered the Gulda and just couldn't get my head around the somewhat stifled sound of the recording, and haven't been able to revisit yet to see if I can adjust.




Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2019, 04:48:42 AM
Quote from: Iota on July 10, 2019, 03:31:06 AM
certainly uses agogics aplenty, but all to great effect I think.

Tempo rubato, as you say he bends and sways the tempos. Rhythmic rubato, agogic hesitations to draw attention to a bit of music, is less of a traditional piano technique (after all, why bother with it if you have dynamic variation even at the level of a single note?) I think that Feinberg does use it subtly and well in fact. He's the real deal IMO, a great musician, with a huge weakness -- too often too bloody fast.

Quote from: Iota on July 10, 2019, 03:31:06 AM
From what I know of Feinberg in WTC he seems a fairly uninhibited tone painter

That I don't hear so much maybe because the sound quality is not so good in my transfers.

Quote from: Iota on July 10, 2019, 03:31:06 AM
Woodward certainly beats a very different drum, more contained but immensely expressive I find.

For some reason I can't put my finger on I can't get on with it, it's a blind spot. Same with his Barraque and Chopin. I really should make more of an effort to see what he's up to I suppose.

Quote from: milk on December 31, 1969, 02:00:01 PM

The dynamic changes [in Feinberg's WTC] are just so jarring and ugly to me

Yes though this may be due to the transfer.



Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2019, 12:26:32 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71uePKOzliL._SY355_.jpg)

Brenda Lucas Ogdon was John Ogdon's wife and partner in an LP he made of duets by Debussy and Bizet,  Last year she released this recording of WTC 2, on a modern piano, I'm pretty sure equally tuned. In my opinion it's commendable for its extreme sobriety and seriousness. There's hardly any dynamic variation - possibly none. The voices are equal. I don't hear either tempo or rhythmic rubato. She sticks to her pulse. I haven't noticed more than one or two ornaments, and I think they're in the score. Her articulation is limited, basically staccato and a pianistic portato. It is monochromatic. And it's flat: there's zero relief. Expressively, there's nothing much being expressed.  I'm now going to steal a wonderful expression which I think Premont used about 10 years ago, it may be natural in Danish but in English it's pure poetry: she plays with cat's paws.  The whole thing sounds more like a piano teacher playing than a real imaginative creative poet of the piano. 

This does not sound promising, I know. Yet this evening I'm finding it strangely compelling!  I can't say why, my bad taste probably.  See what you think.

No, that's enough. I'm turning the thing off.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on July 10, 2019, 02:00:10 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 10, 2019, 04:48:42 AM
For some reason I can't put my finger on I can't get on with it, it's a blind spot. Same with his Barraque and Chopin. I really should make more of an effort to see what he's up to I suppose.

I am still formulating an opinion of Woodward, he certainly uses quite a bit of dynamic shading. The recording is also a bit unusual in the amount of ambience/reverb it has, it was recorded in a medium sized studio, but Woodward wanted it to sound like it was recorded in a small chapel.

He also has a bit more unusual Shostakovich Op. 87 that I find worthwhile hearing.

Feinberg's legato is primarily what I find so interesting about his performances. Unfortunately after some time that fake ambience/stereo just became too grating to put up with.

Quote
That I don't hear so much maybe because the sound quality is not so good in my transfers.

Which transfer do you listen to?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 10, 2019, 05:16:10 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 10, 2019, 03:03:25 AM
Have you heard Hans Jorg Schaefer?
I'm giving it a go now!

Quote from: Iota on July 10, 2019, 03:31:06 AM

With Bach's keyboard music I find mood can dictate what jars or not, a style of playing that sounds really wonderful in the morning for example, can be not at all what I want to hear in the evening.
this may have been the problem; I listened to this in the AM on the way to work. Perhaps one must treat it like spirits: none before noon!
Crossland is another one I want to revisit.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: czgirb on July 10, 2019, 05:28:36 PM
Regarding to Rosalyn Tureck, heard she was recorded twice, 1950s and 1970s.
And now, I asking about the 1950s and it was isued by:
* Membran ... https://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Well-Tempered-Clavier/dp/B000AC5EG8
* DGG ... https://www.amazon.com/Well-Tempered-Clavier-Books-CD/dp/B000031X83
which one sounds better? please advice ...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on July 10, 2019, 05:47:40 PM
Quote from: czgirb on July 10, 2019, 05:28:36 PM
Regarding to Rosalyn Tureck, heard she was recorded twice, 1950s and 1970s.
And now, I asking about the 1950s and it was isued by:
* Membran ... https://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Well-Tempered-Clavier/dp/B000AC5EG8
* DGG ... https://www.amazon.com/Well-Tempered-Clavier-Books-CD/dp/B000031X83
which one sounds better? please advice ...

My money is on DG, as Membran is a pirate label.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on July 11, 2019, 12:38:41 AM
Quote from: George on July 10, 2019, 05:47:40 PM
My money is on DG, as Membran is a pirate label.

No, it isn't.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on July 11, 2019, 01:43:11 AM
Membran does publish both officially licensed as well as out of copyright recordings (they may or may not have transferred themselves) and maybe also some probably pirated recordings (with some overlap with the second category, i.e. pirating someone else's transfers of old recordings).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 11, 2019, 02:52:40 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 11, 2019, 01:43:11 AM
Membran does publish both officially licensed as well as out of copyright recordings (they may or may not have transferred themselves) and maybe also some probably pirated recordings (with some overlap with the second category, i.e. pirating someone else's transfers of old recordings).

I have never seen any evidence of this, so it remains a rumor. Probably it would be rather easy to prove (Frequency Spectrum Analysis), so the ones, who spread this rumor, are apparently not interested in proving it, - one may wonder why.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Marc on July 11, 2019, 05:05:13 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 11, 2019, 02:52:40 AM
I have never seen any evidence of this, so it remains a rumor. Probably it would be rather easy to prove (Frequency Spectrum Analysis), so the ones, who spread this rumor, are apparently not interested in proving it, - one may wonder why.

In the late 1980s it was said about Naxos, in the late 1990s about Brilliant Classics, and there are probably more labels who have fallen victim to claims like these.
I also know of a CD shop owner who is still sure that Spotify is a pirate website, and, if not, they are thieves anyway.

But... back to the WTC: I love it. :)
I listen far too less to it though. My favourite recording is probably Kenneth Gilbert, but this is also a choice caused by a lack of knowledge.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on July 11, 2019, 12:56:36 PM
Quote from: czgirb on July 10, 2019, 05:28:36 PM
Regarding to Rosalyn Tureck, heard she was recorded twice, 1950s and 1970s.
And now, I asking about the 1950s and it was isued by:
* Membran ... https://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Well-Tempered-Clavier/dp/B000AC5EG8
* DGG ... https://www.amazon.com/Well-Tempered-Clavier-Books-CD/dp/B000031X83
which one sounds better? please advice ...

Considering the Membran is unavilable, its a no brainer to get the DG. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 11, 2019, 01:05:10 PM
Quote from: George on July 11, 2019, 12:56:36 PM
Considering the Membran is unavilable, its a no brainer to get the DG.

There are a couple of other transfers on spotify and elsewhere, I listened to about 30 seconds of each of them, and to the DG, they're all different, different balance. Anyway I'd certainly think it's worth listening to samples of these transfers if you want to buy the set.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on July 11, 2019, 01:07:03 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 11, 2019, 01:05:10 PM
There are a couple of other transfers on spotify and elsewhere, I listened to about 30 seconds of each of them, and to the DG, they're all different, different balance. Anyway I'd certainly think it's worth listening to samples of these transfers if you want to buy the set.

What balance do you mean? They are mono recordings. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 11, 2019, 01:07:34 PM
Quote from: milk on July 10, 2019, 05:16:10 PM

Crossland is another one I want to revisit.

I think that's not bad at all.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 11, 2019, 01:08:30 PM
Quote from: George on July 11, 2019, 01:07:03 PM
What balance do you mean? They are mono recordings.

The balance of bass to midrange/treble, the DG seemed the least « bass up »
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on July 11, 2019, 01:10:44 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 11, 2019, 01:08:30 PM
The balance of bass to midrange/treble, the DG seemed the least « bass up »

OK.

In the USA, Spotify lists two transfers, the DG and something that says "AwardWinners." They sound the same to me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 11, 2019, 01:11:45 PM
Quote from: George on July 11, 2019, 01:10:44 PM
OK.

In the USA, Spotify lists two transfers, the DG and something that says "AwardWinners." They sound the same to me.

Ah, Award Winners was one of the ones I heard and to me it sounded slightly different, but you're probably right, I wasn't giving it full attention probably. The other one was called Milestones of a Piano Legend.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on July 11, 2019, 01:15:25 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 11, 2019, 01:11:45 PM
Ah, Award Winners was one of the ones I heard and to me it sounded slightly different, but you're probably right, I wasn't giving it full attention probably.

The only other ones I would consider other than DG, since they did the first CD release, would be something by Mark Obert-Thorn, Ward Marston, or Seth Winner. On the other hand, they aren't the greatest recordings, so I imagine not much could be done to improve them.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 12, 2019, 03:04:30 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 10, 2019, 03:03:25 AM
Have you heard Hans Jorg Schaefer?
I'm listening a little today. Can you give us a word about what you like about this recording? I want to spend more time with this and it might help me in terms of your view of its strengths.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 12, 2019, 04:02:51 AM
Quote from: milk on July 12, 2019, 03:04:30 AM
I'm listening a little today. Can you give us a word about what you like about this recording? I want to spend more time with this and it might help me in terms of your view of its strengths.

I would say the tuning of the piano (unequal), his restrained unsensational approach and his well articulated part playing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 12, 2019, 04:32:52 AM
Quote from: milk on July 12, 2019, 03:04:30 AM
I'm listening a little today. Can you give us a word about what you like about this recording? I want to spend more time with this and it might help me in terms of your view of its strengths.


Schaefer takes you by the hand and, with a deceptive lightness and artlessness, has you visit the magical, unpredictable, multiform world of WTC, on a piano well prepared for the music.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on July 25, 2019, 07:35:18 AM
Celine Frisch's Book 2 came out earlier this year and slipped by me. Has anyone heard it? Her Book 1 is up there with the best I've heard.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61wkMPyNSBL._SL400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 25, 2019, 07:47:48 AM
Quote from: staxomega on July 25, 2019, 07:35:18 AM
Celine Frisch's Book 2 came out earlier this year and slipped by me. Has anyone heard it? Her Book 1 is up there with the best I've heard.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61wkMPyNSBL._SL400_.jpg)

Yes you should hear it, I can't promise you'll like it, but I certainly played it a lot when it first came out and I thought it had some interesting things in there, and it sounded good.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on July 25, 2019, 06:19:04 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 25, 2019, 07:47:48 AM
Yes you should hear it, I can't promise you'll like it, but I certainly played it a lot when it first came out and I thought it had some interesting things in there, and it sounded good.

I sampled it, it has many of the qualities I liked about Book 1; slower pieces are played a bit more on the slow side, faster ones at a good tempo and ornamentation that doesn't sound over the top. Overall feels vivid and expressive as her first Book. I don't play harpsichord nor am I am expert so I'm not really sure how to express this in purely technical terms, for me what I hear is a "vertical-ness" in her playing that lends to how expressive she is.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 25, 2019, 07:53:03 PM
Quote from: staxomega on July 25, 2019, 06:19:04 PM
I sampled it, it has many of the qualities I liked about Book 1; slower pieces are played a bit more on the slow side, faster ones at a good tempo and ornamentation that doesn't sound over the top. Overall feels vivid and expressive as her first Book. I don't play harpsichord nor am I am expert so I'm not really sure how to express this in purely technical terms, for me what I hear is a "vertical-ness" in her playing that lends to how expressive she is.

I think what she does is humane and tender, that approach may be unusual in Book 2.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 29, 2019, 03:20:05 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 25, 2019, 07:47:48 AM
Yes you should hear it, I can't promise you'll like it, but I certainly played it a lot when it first came out and I thought it had some interesting things in there, and it sounded good.
I like what I'm hearing from her. Also, I put on Van Asperen's B2 today. He's also surprisingly sunny at times and tender, not as apocalyptic is Watchorn I think. Having stepped away From Watchorn for a while, I appreciate his drama.
One set that only gets mentioned now and then is Levin. This is one of the first recordings that drew me into Bach so I have special affection for it. What's interesting is how he's, alternatively, brisk and grand, straightforward and dramatic. It's usually the organ, which he employs for the b-flat minor, that brings his "horror" side. Though, again, sometimes he also uses the organ for joy and play.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 30, 2019, 03:26:07 AM
Review of the new Frisch here

Quote from: xoph at http://classik.forumactif.com/t885p450-versions-du-clavier-bien-tempere-de-js-bach#1151801Quatre ans après le livre I, Céline Frisch publie le livre II.
Après un premier Livre, tout de ruissellement lumineux, sous le signe des eaux vives aux fraicheurs étincelantes. Changement de clavecin : au clavecin d'une grâce presque juvénile d'Anthony Sidey et Frédéric Bal (1995), d'après Silbermann (1683-1753), succède un clavecin Andrea Restelli (1998) d'après Christian Vater (1738), d'une superbe plénitude : basses profondes, aigus tout à la fois clairs et épanouis, d'une très grande homogénéité. Un clavecin d'été. Son magnifique que sert excellemment, comme pour le premier Livre Aline Blondiau. Pour moi, d'un point de vue sonore, c'est une merveille, dont l'écoute jamais ne lasse.
Alternant déploiements conduits avec une maîtrise impeccable (prélude en ut dièse majeur, prélude en la majeur), énergie conquérante (prélude et fugue en ré majeur), hauteur sévère de certaine fugues (fugue en mi bémol majeur, fugue en mi majeur), résolution des tensions en déflagrations jubilatoires (prélude en ré mineur), intelligence des registrations au service d'une dynamique (prélude en ré dièse mineur, prélude en la mineur), flux scintillants (prélude en si bémol mineur, prélude en mi mineur). Et des cantabile à tomber par terre (le prélude en ut dièse mineur, prélude en mi bémol majeur, prélude en fa dièse majeur)
Pour moi, ma version préférée au clavecin. Diapason d'or à sa sortie

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on July 30, 2019, 10:50:40 AM
I like Watchorn as well in Book 2, I think it is his broad tempi that lend itself to some of those more serious pieces, on the other hand I do think it becomes excessively labored in some pieces, the A Minor Prelude quickly comes to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LyiGBcj7d4

Quote from: Mandryka on July 25, 2019, 07:53:03 PM
I think what she does is humane and tender, that approach may be unusual in Book 2.

Hard to disagree with that, so far I do prefer her in Book 1. Her Book 2 does warrant more listening and it's growing on me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 31, 2019, 01:22:52 AM
By applying so many instruments to Bk2, harpsichord, clavichord, organ and fortepiano, Robert Levin creates a lively and engaging listening experience. I think he's good on each medium and necessarily different, though I think he's usually brisk. In this sense, Levin is unique. There is nothing quite like it.   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 31, 2019, 01:41:00 AM
Have you seen this?

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8618134--j-s-bach-six-partitas-bwv-825-830
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 31, 2019, 04:13:45 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 31, 2019, 01:41:00 AM
Have you seen this?

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8618134--j-s-bach-six-partitas-bwv-825-830
Wow. I had no idea. Weird. I know he did the English Suites on modern piano years ago too. He seemed to specialize in period Mozart also. So, I wonder why modern piano?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 31, 2019, 04:22:41 AM
Quote from: milk on July 31, 2019, 04:13:45 AM
Wow. I had no idea. Weird. I know he did the English Suites on modern piano years ago too. He seemed to specialize in period Mozart also. So, I wonder why modern piano?

The booklet of that is very interesting, I don't know if this link will work for you if you're not a qobuz member but give it a try

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/14/000127241.pdf
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 31, 2019, 04:25:53 AM
Quote from: milk on July 31, 2019, 04:13:45 AM
Wow. I had no idea. Weird. I know he did the English Suites on modern piano years ago too. He seemed to specialize in period Mozart also. So, I wonder why modern piano?

Concerning the English suites he offered no real explanation for his choice. He just said, that he had played the suites on harpsichord and piano for a number of years and had found, that the piano serves the music the best.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 31, 2019, 04:42:03 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 31, 2019, 04:22:41 AM
The booklet of that is very interesting, I don't know if this link will work for you if you're not a qobuz member but give it a try

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/14/000127241.pdf
That does work! Thanks! I'll look into it. Just glancing at it, I see there's some interesting stuff here about manuscripts and ornamentation. One thing I notice right away about his playing is that there's nothing romantic about Levin. I'm thinking he's thoroughly versed in baroque idiom and Bach research. I usually like things slower. But he doesn't do any of the annoying things some pianists do though I'll have to see what to make of the ornamentations and these very quick tempos.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 31, 2019, 04:51:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 31, 2019, 04:22:41 AM
The booklet of that is very interesting, I don't know if this link will work for you if you're not a qobuz member but give it a try

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/14/000127241.pdf

Not much new here. The rhythm problems have been discussed very much before. And as to instrument chosen he now says, that he chose the piano to meet the listeners expectations!! He says that the three-part Ricercare from das Opfer is meant for fortepiano - he may be right -  but he also says, that the six-part Ricercare is for fortepiano, and there is no reason whatsoever to think so, - actually it is written in a more organ like style.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 31, 2019, 05:11:09 AM
This is the idea which caught my attention, because I didn't know that this practice, which is indeed widespread, finds its justification in Bach's own processes of rewriting.

QuoteWhat do we learn from studying Bach's autographs?
How does this help us understand his music?

         The manuscripts testify to an acute sense of adaption - I dare not use the word "tinkering" - of Bach. In fact, each time  he was working on a score, he added free ornamentation  to the student's copy. By "free ornamentation", I do not only mean a catalogue of ornaments indicated by symbols such as trills or mordants, for example, but a free ornamentation in the character of an improvisation, a natural step to any personal interpretation. In this way, I can play certain passages several times in a row in very different ways.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 31, 2019, 06:29:55 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 31, 2019, 05:11:09 AM
This is the idea which caught my attention, because I didn't know that this practice, which is indeed widespread, finds its justification in Bach's own processes of rewriting.

I do not think, that Bach's habit to add ornamentation to his pupils manuscripts can be called rewriting, because they do not change the basic structure of the music. He obviously just wanted to give his pupils some suggestions as to how to ornament the music in a spontaneous manner.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on August 01, 2019, 12:32:07 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 31, 2019, 06:29:55 AM
I do not think, that Bach's habit to add ornamentation to his pupils manuscripts can be called rewriting, because they do not change the basic structure of the music. He obviously just wanted to give his pupils some suggestions as to how to ornament the music in a spontaneous manner.
Sorry, I had absolutely no idea about this. Roughly how many student manuscripts exist? Do different well-known recordings draw from these suggested ornamentations? Which come to mind? I have to reread this but it seems a little context is missing for the lay people.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on August 01, 2019, 01:45:16 AM
Quote from: milk on August 01, 2019, 12:32:07 AM
Roughly how many student manuscripts exist?
Don't know exactly. My knowledge of this stems from Urtext editions (sheet music) which mention the variants in the accompanying text (Revisionsbericht).
Quote from: milk
Do different well-known recordings draw from these suggested ornamentations?
No, as well as not at all. Modern performers prefer to add their own ornamentation.
Quote from: milk
Which come to mind?
First come to mind the different versions of the two part Inventions and in particular the three part Sinfonias (which served as early instruction for the pupils), some just with "standard" ornamentation, and others with copious "free" ornamentation. But still the overall structure of the music isn't changed. This has nothing to do with rewriting.

The different versions of e.g. the courante of the second French suite or of the end of the sarabande of the fifth French suite may on the other hand be seen as phases in Bach's compositional process and have nothing with the pupils to do.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Andy D. on August 01, 2019, 03:41:30 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 01:26:30 PM
What do you enjoy here for recordings (either or both books)?  HIP and Non-HIP suggestions welcome.

When I feel like listening to WTC I haul out the Hewitt.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on August 01, 2019, 04:47:40 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 01, 2019, 01:45:16 AM
Don't know exactly. My knowledge of this stems from Urtext editions (sheet music) which mention the variants in the accompanying text (Revisionsbericht).No, as well as not at all. Modern performers prefer to add their own ornamentation.First come to mind the different versions of the two part Inventions and in particular the three part Sinfonias (which served as early instruction for the pupils), some just with "standard" ornamentation, and others with copious "free" ornamentation. But still the overall structure of the music isn't changed. This has nothing to do with rewriting.

The different versions of e.g. the courante of the second French suite or of the end of the sarabande of the fifth French suite may on the other hand be seen as phases in Bach's compositional process and have nothing with the pupils to do.
Still, isn't it interesting to hear some of the ornamentation that Bach would have suggested? I'm very curious what kind of things he would have given. Are his ideas for students very subtle? - I wonder. I never heard of this. This is news to me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on August 01, 2019, 05:18:11 AM
Quote from: milk on August 01, 2019, 04:47:40 AM
Still, isn't it interesting to hear some of the ornamentation that Bach would have suggested? I'm very curious what kind of things he would have given. Are his ideas for students very subtle? - I wonder. I never heard of this. This is news to me.

The ornamented versions of the inventions and synphonies are printed in the Henle Urtext edition, some of it can be seen here (click "look inside"):

https://www.henle.de/us/detail/?Title=Inventions%20and%20Sinfonias_589

I have played them myself, but never heard them performed or recorded as such.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on August 03, 2019, 01:17:47 AM
Genzoh Takehisa goes all in with the pedal harpsichord on his 2017 recording of B1 (unless my ears are deceiving me, I think it's a pedal). You'll be the judge of whether this succeeds. He's quite the individual too when it comes to employing hesitations - articulation. If you likes a steady pulse then this will drive you nuts. Does he do too much? But I think there are some places where he's quite the artist. ETA: sounds like Takehista is using a variety of instruments, including a fortepiano. It's worth checking out what he's doing though sometimes he sounds a bit cluttered to my ear.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on August 03, 2019, 08:57:56 PM
It looks like Yo Tomita is about to publish a book on WTC2, some notes here on what he has to say about the relation between WTC and psalms.


http://www.music.qub.ac.uk/tomita/WTC2Psalm/index.html




Quote from: (: premont :) on August 01, 2019, 05:18:11 AM
The ornamented versions of the inventions and synphonies are printed in the Henle Urtext edition, some of it can be seen here (click "look inside"):

https://www.henle.de/us/detail/?Title=Inventions%20and%20Sinfonias_589

I have played them myself, but never heard them performed or recorded as such.



Apparently Mahan Esfahani has argued that some of Bach's ornamentated versions were revisions designed to bring the music more in line with fashions of the time, make it more up to date.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on August 16, 2019, 11:54:37 PM
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/H5oAAOSwYXBbSCh2/s-l300.png) these recordings of WTC by Genzoh Takehisa are some of the wildest I've heard. It's worth a listen, really. The instruments sound great and are well recorded, however, I wonder if some people might passionately hate it.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on August 19, 2019, 09:27:36 AM
In Roger Woodward's booklet essay to his recording of WTC we read

QuoteCertain aspects of DWC Book II made
references to such great traditions as well
as to contemporary thought. The opening
six pitches to Bach's Fugue 18 spring to
mind. They are virtually identical to those
of Domenico Scarlatti's early D-minor
sonata composed in Münster in 1738.

He gives no more information to help identify the Scarlatti sonata. What is the D minor sonata which Scarlatti composed in 1738 where there's a resemblance to the WTC fugue?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: JBS on August 19, 2019, 09:53:01 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 19, 2019, 09:27:36 AM
In Roger Woodward's booklet essay to his recording of WTC we read

He gives no more information to help identify the Scarlatti sonata. What is the D minor sonata which Scarlatti composed in 1738 where there's a resemblance to the WTC fugue?

When was D Scarlatti in Munster?  After 1729 he was living in Spain, apparently in Madrid in 1738. And he was 52/53 in that year, so why call it an "early" sonata?

The "30 Exercices" were published in 1738, perhaps that's what Woodward was referring to.

[goes off to dig a bit more]

Some of the manuscript sources are known as the Munster collections.  The contents are included in this pdf from the Wayback machine, but no hint at chronology.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140913154246/http://chrishail.net/collections.pdf
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on August 19, 2019, 11:40:42 AM
K5, 9 and 18 are in D minor in the 30 exercises., So I guess the question now is, is the similarity between the opening bars of these two pieces of harpsichord music more likely to be a coincidence than evidence of Bach borrowing?

https://www.youtube.com/v/myXswRvpNFc


https://www.youtube.com/v/k6svD9i66GM

As far as I know there is no other evidence put forward of Bach being aware of Scarlatti?  Did Bach own the 30 exercises? I don't think so but I could be wrong.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 14, 2019, 03:06:57 PM
Lately I've been listening to Scott Ross which IS quite interesting. Ross doesn't use much Rubato and he seems to express momentum. But, paradoxically, he doesn't seem only rigid to me - or at least doesn't seem unpleasant. He's not tapping away like Gould. I suppose there's more subtle means of articulation happening but I think he stresses how the musical pieces work/move. It can be a little tiring after a while but it's enjoyable too.
There's not the emotion or reflection you find in others.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 14, 2019, 11:20:08 PM
Quote from: milk on October 14, 2019, 03:06:57 PM
Lately I've been listening to Scott Ross which IS quite interesting. Ross doesn't use much Rubato and he seems to express momentum. But, paradoxically, he doesn't seem only rigid to me - or at least doesn't seem unpleasant. He's not tapping away like Gould. I suppose there's more subtle means of articulation happening but I think he stresses how the musical pieces work/move. It can be a little tiring after a while but it's enjoyable too.
There's not the emotion or reflection you find in others.

It's too brutal for me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mookalafalas on October 16, 2019, 07:19:28 PM
Put on Gieseking's WTC for first time. At first, something in the sound really bothered me. The range was there, but it sounded like it was from an old tape that had started to decay and then been restored...however, I ended up playing both disks with great pleasure.  Unusually fast and lively.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61fQ-9cDDJL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mookalafalas on October 16, 2019, 07:25:52 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 14, 2019, 11:20:08 PM
It's too brutal for me.

A Brutal WTC ???
   I've gotta hear this, immediately 8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: amw on October 19, 2019, 02:31:53 AM
I like Scott Ross's playing in the WTC but I have a hard time with the instrument and especially the tuning (historically accurate as it may be). Like a lot of Blandine Verlet Astrée recordings it was disconcerting enough for me to regret obtaining the set. I'm not sure if I will listen to it again, maybe someday.

I acquired three new-to-me sets recently—Peter Hill, Michaël Lévinas & Roger Woodward. I'm not sure which one I will listen to first.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2019, 06:18:50 AM
Quote from: amw on October 19, 2019, 02:31:53 AM
Like a lot of Blandine Verlet Astrée recordings it was disconcerting enough for me to regret obtaining the set. I'm not sure if I will listen to it again, maybe someday.



She's the Martha Argerich of the harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2019, 06:29:03 AM
Quote from: amw on October 19, 2019, 02:31:53 AM
I like Scott Ross's playing in the WTC but I have a hard time with the instrument and especially the tuning (historically accurate as it may be).

Isn't it the one that he always used, the unrestored instrument at Assas? I don't know how it was tuned for him.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on October 24, 2019, 02:16:59 AM
Cross-posted from the Listening thread:

Quote from: San Antone on October 23, 2019, 09:43:13 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81k-5gJ8k1L._SS500_.jpg)

Till Fellner

Have been enjoying this quite a bit.  No fireworks or anything out of the ordinary, just beautiful playing throughout.  I can listen to this without finding myself wanting to switch it off, which is usually the case with the WTC after a while.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on October 24, 2019, 04:00:50 AM
Yeah, 8 Preludes & Fugues is about my limit, especially from Book 2.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on October 24, 2019, 04:39:16 AM
This was the advantage of LPs as typically one side contained 5-7 P&F...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mookalafalas on October 27, 2019, 02:43:22 AM
Got the Scott Ross and have been playing it quite a lot.
    Perhaps I understand where Mandryka is coming from. He plays very aggressively, pushing the instrument and the tempos--in some pieces, certainly the early ones of book 1. Not being particularly delicate myself, I like it a lot. Although I often really enjoy very precise, "Separate note" approaches, I'm finding this fully bodied, vigorous, immersive style to be fun, exciting, refreshing, and enjoyable. At times, however, he slows things way down (well, relatively, anyway) and sounds like an almost different person...  Anyway, I thank you all for bringing this to my attention.  I've gotten many, many hours of enjoyment from Scott's Scarlatti, and am not sure why I had thought his Bach would be less pleasurable. After a few disks, I'm thinking this will be the perfect companion set for the Leonhardt Bach box, which is one of my treasures.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: amw on October 28, 2019, 08:58:36 AM
Good recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
Ralph Kirkpatrick
Céline Frisch
Vladimir Ashkenazy

Mediocre recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
András Schiff (ECM)
Scott Ross
Evgeny Koroliov

Bad recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
Apparently, every other one in existence??

I listened to the first 20 seconds or so of about thirty different recordings of this prelude, a piece I'm interested in learning, and find that it almost invariably gets turned into an ultralegato andante "Szene am Bach", especially by pianists. Bach put it in 12/16, the same metre as the Gigue of the G major French Suite, and with lots of virtuosic runs and hand crossings, to the extent that the only thing keeping us from thinking of it as a homage to Scarlatti is that there's no evidence Bach had ever heard of him. Even if it's not played fast (and eg Frisch isn't particularly fast) it should, I think, come across as vivacious and full of energy. So I kind of just.... don't get what's up with all those super slow, super smooth performances. Does anyone else have strong opinions about this prelude or is it just me?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 28, 2019, 09:21:54 AM
Quote from: amw on October 28, 2019, 08:58:36 AM
Good recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
Ralph Kirkpatrick
Céline Frisch
Vladimir Ashkenazy

Mediocre recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
András Schiff (ECM)
Scott Ross
Evgeny Koroliov

Bad recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
Apparently, every other one in existence??

I listened to the first 20 seconds or so of about thirty different recordings of this prelude, a piece I'm interested in learning, and find that it almost invariably gets turned into an ultralegato andante "Szene am Bach", especially by pianists. Bach put it in 12/16, the same metre as the Gigue of the G major French Suite, and with lots of virtuosic runs and hand crossings, to the extent that the only thing keeping us from thinking of it as a homage to Scarlatti is that there's no evidence Bach had ever heard of him. Even if it's not played fast (and eg Frisch isn't particularly fast) it should, I think, come across as vivacious and full of energy. So I kind of just.... don't get what's up with all those super slow, super smooth performances. Does anyone else have strong opinions about this prelude or is it just me?

The stereotypically scarlattiest, and I don't mean that as a compliment, is John Butt.

I think it should be dancing and joyful, but this is Bach, the joy should be angels dancing, not imps. There's a lovely piano version by Andrei Vieru, if you haven't got the CD it's here on youtube but you'll have to dig into it to find the relevant bit, I'm too lazy.

https://www.youtube.com/v/w8L8qdIL1Pk

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on October 28, 2019, 09:29:06 AM
Quote from: amw on October 28, 2019, 08:58:36 AM
Good recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
Ralph Kirkpatrick
Céline Frisch
Vladimir Ashkenazy

Mediocre recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
András Schiff (ECM)
Scott Ross
Evgeny Koroliov

Bad recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
Apparently, every other one in existence??

I listened to the first 20 seconds or so of about thirty different recordings of this prelude, a piece I'm interested in learning, and find that it almost invariably gets turned into an ultralegato andante "Szene am Bach", especially by pianists. Bach put it in 12/16, the same metre as the Gigue of the G major French Suite, and with lots of virtuosic runs and hand crossings, to the extent that the only thing keeping us from thinking of it as a homage to Scarlatti is that there's no evidence Bach had ever heard of him. Even if it's not played fast (and eg Frisch isn't particularly fast) it should, I think, come across as vivacious and full of energy. So I kind of just.... don't get what's up with all those super slow, super smooth performances. Does anyone else have strong opinions about this prelude or is it just me?

Gould plays it like you imagine it ought to be done.  I  must admit to liking a more relaxed approach.  Richter does a nice job, as does Ivo Janssen - but he may be too relaxed for your tastes.  I can imagine harpsichordists would naturally want to take the piece faster, whereas a pianist might want to luxuriate in Bach's counterpoint more.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 28, 2019, 09:37:17 AM
Here's an organ chorale with similar music to 890, all about angels, pastoral, BWV 607 from Orgelbuchlein

https://www.youtube.com/v/dZSGU_ISSC8



Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: amw on October 28, 2019, 09:49:34 AM
Gould plays it as an absolutely undifferentiated stream of semiquavers, which is definitely not how I imagine it ought to. Gigues require a springing trochaic rhythm (which is very well notated in the text) whereas Gould refuses to use any emphasis whatsoever for some reason. I grant that angels may sometimes dance a gigue as well, but the WTC is generally quite focused on the incarnate world with the crucified Christ as its most divine figure (the fugue BWV 869, at least in Ledbetters opinion).

Vieru is alright—I didn't come across his recording in my initial search for some reason. Definitely better than the average, though I will evaluate properly at a later date.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on October 28, 2019, 10:40:43 AM
Quote from: amw on October 28, 2019, 09:49:34 AM
Gould plays it as an absolutely undifferentiated stream of semiquavers, which is definitely not how I imagine it ought to. Gigues require a springing trochaic rhythm (which is very well notated in the text) whereas Gould refuses to use any emphasis whatsoever for some reason. I grant that angels may sometimes dance a gigue as well, but the WTC is generally quite focused on the incarnate world with the crucified Christ as its most divine figure (the fugue BWV 869, at least in Ledbetters opinion).

Vieru is alright—I didn't come across his recording in my initial search for some reason. Definitely better than the average, though I will evaluate properly at a later date.

I mentioned Gould only because he does not play it slowly.  The part I bolded is beyond my ken; I never think of this work (or any work other than sacred music) in that light.  The WTC is what I have always considered a perfect example of absolute music.

8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on October 28, 2019, 10:59:38 AM
Quote from: amw on October 28, 2019, 09:49:34 AM
Gould plays it as an absolutely undifferentiated stream of semiquavers, which is definitely not how I imagine it ought to. Gigues require a springing trochaic rhythm (which is very well notated in the text) whereas Gould refuses to use any emphasis whatsoever for some reason.

IIRC doesn't Landowska also play it like that? I've often sort of drawn parallels to the two of them in my mind.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 28, 2019, 11:23:05 AM
Quote from: San Antone on October 28, 2019, 10:40:43 AM
I mentioned Gould only because he does not play it slowly.  The part I bolded is beyond my ken; I never think of this work (or any work other than sacred music) in that light.  The WTC is what I have always considered a perfect example of absolute music.

8)

There's supposed to be a cross actually in the score if you join the dots as it were, I used to have a good image of this but I can't find it, annoyingly. He was always encoding stuff in the music like that, it's all a bit strange from a c21 point of view but he was 300 years ago.

What I've never known is whether other composers do the same. I mean, noone ever talks about crosses and sighs and stumbling christs and 3s for the trinity and stuff like that in Pachelbel or Scheidemann as far as I know -- maybe they do and I've missed it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on October 28, 2019, 12:06:50 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 28, 2019, 11:23:05 AM
There's supposed to be a cross actually in the score if you join the dots as it were, I used to have a good image of this but I can't find it, annoyingly. He was always encoding stuff in the music like that, it's all a bit strange from a c21 point of view but he was 300 years ago.

What I've never known is whether other composers do the same. I mean, noone ever talks about crosses and sighs and stumbling christs and 3s for the trinity and stuff like that in Pachelbel or Scheidemann as far as I know -- maybe they do and I've missed it.

I have a book on the keyboard music (Schulenberg, David. The Keyboard Music of J.S. Bach. Brantford, Ont: W. Ross MacDonald School Resource Services Library, 2011.) and looked up this prelude/fugue.  No mention of any religious symbology and indicates that the prelude is to be taken in a relaxed manner as opposed to other "gigue-like fugues in C# minor and F - notated in 12/16 and 6/16 respectively - the slower harmonic rhythm and the opening pedal point make this more of a pastorale.  The hand crossings do not contradict this impression, for in each case they grow naturally out of the texture of the preceding phrase; they do not open up new registers but represent continuations of the underlying voice leading."

I also have a book "Bach & God" (Marissen, Michael. Bach & God. New York: Oxford University Press, 2016.) which only discusses The Musical Offering from the secular instrumental works as possibly containing extra musical aspects. 

I am not saying any religious symbology is not there in the WTC, only that it may be a red herring as well.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 28, 2019, 12:35:52 PM
Yes I don't know that book, Ledbetter is a Bach scholar I think, he writes

QuoteExpressively the subject is also much stronger than Albinoni's. Instead of the traditional chromatic tetrachord Bach experiments with other possibilities of dissonant steps and leaps (passus/salmus diriusculi), finding powerful and novel effects here and in cantata movements such as the opening aria (also in B minor) of BWV 154 (1724. perhaps earlier). Bach has greatly increased the effect of this harshness by setting it off with serenely diatonic episode material. The episode figure can be traced to trio sonata figurations, but it also occurred to other composers for the same purpose of relaxation, from Frescobaldi's harshest and most mannered contrapuntal piece, the Captiaio cromatico con ligature al contrario (1626), to the fugue of Beethoven's Op.106. Kimberger, equating progression by small intervals with doubt and sorrow, cites this subject as a good example of the expression of despair (1782 p.2; Dok.III p.361). Whether or not we agree with that precise emotional shade, this is surely Bach's most elaborate use of the device of chiasmus, with every four quavers of the 'sigh' motif forming the cross shape, all framed by the tonic and dominant triads.'

Since the subject is not only very expressively chromatic but also modulates to the dominant, the answer will need to be carefully handled, and Bach changed his mind about this several times. The problem is that the subject moves up a 5th from B to F sharp, but the answer will have to start on F sharp  . . . .


As I say I used to have a good image of the score showing the motif with the cross drawn in, it'll turn up no doubt. I this chiasmus is pretty common in music. This sort of thing

(https://i.imgur.com/KWVk48m.png)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: amw on October 28, 2019, 01:07:27 PM
For the record here are Ledbetter's comments on 12/16 time and the B flat prelude respectively.

(https://i.imgur.com/abkckuL.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/QGJgwaO.png)

It is significant that regardless of the intended mood (which in any case is largely up to the performer) Bach renotated the prelude from the 12/8 of a pastorale to the 12/16 of a fast gigue, & that these were considered very different metres and implying very different tempi by his contemporaries.

Re the B minor bkI fugue and its religious associations

(https://i.imgur.com/53cOUAB.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/KGXmUxx.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/KGclWxL.png)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on October 28, 2019, 01:07:36 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 28, 2019, 12:35:52 PM
Yes I don't know that book, Ledbetter is a Bach scholar I think, he writes


As I say I used to have a good image of the score showing the motif with the cross drawn in, it'll turn up no doubt. I this chiasmus is pretty common in music. This sort of thing

(https://i.imgur.com/KWVk48m.png)

Chiiasmus in ancient texts, and even Milton, has been considered important for Christianity, referring to the crucifixion.  But to advance that idea to the theme of Bach's name?  I dunno, seems like a stretch, not to mention that a musician with the kind of humility such as attributed to Bach would link his name to Christ would strike me as far-fetched.

While this kind of speculation may be interesting in the abstract, when it comes to appreciating the WTC it does not add to my enjoyment or appreciation.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on October 28, 2019, 01:23:49 PM
Quote from: amw on October 28, 2019, 01:07:27 PM
For the record here are Ledbetter's comments on 12/16 time and the B flat prelude respectively.

[img width=480 height=478]https://i.imgur.com/abkckuL.png
[img width=480 height=211]https://i.imgur.com/QGJgwaO.png

It is significant that regardless of the intended mood (which in any case is largely up to the performer) Bach renotated the prelude from the 12/8 of a pastorale to the 12/16 of a fast gigue, & that these were considered very different metres and implying very different tempi by his contemporaries.

Re the B minor bkI fugue and its religious associations

[img width=480 height=137]https://i.imgur.com/53cOUAB.png
[img width=480 height=327]https://i.imgur.com/KGXmUxx.png
[img width=480 height=119]https://i.imgur.com/KGclWxL.png

How do you find the quality of Ledbetter's book? And is that in eBook format? Amazon only lists print copies.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: amw on October 28, 2019, 02:25:02 PM
As far as I know the ebook is only available to institutional subscribers. Once I leave academia I'll probably buy a print copy as it's a very useful reference, even if a bit dry for casual reading lol
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 28, 2019, 08:57:57 PM
Quote from: amw on October 28, 2019, 09:49:34 AM

Vieru is alright—I didn't come across his recording in my initial search for some reason. Definitely better than the average, though I will evaluate properly at a later date.

I think in Bk 2 at least it's very successful indeed. I wonder what happened to him.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on October 29, 2019, 01:24:45 AM
Unfortunately I have only Book 1 with Ross and Koroliov. So I listened to Koopman in B flat major II. He is fast enough for my taste although it does not quite sound like a gigue, it's certainly far less uniformous than Gould's. (I have a few more of course, but had not enough time to listen to them.)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on October 31, 2019, 07:12:51 PM
Vladimir Feltsman- probably the most straight forward recording I've heard on piano. Nothing really unusual tempo wise, relatively narrow dynamic range, and I think it was this thread (or another here) where someone said pianists interweave voices in and out too much? Here Feltsman is playing them nearly side by side like you would hear on a harpsichord.

I personally found this a bit too ordinary, as in a conservatory student recording them (this critique is much harsher than I intend, I'm at a loss how to convey that more diplomatically), but I could see how this would be one that others would like. I may well change my mind on it as well, this sort of unadorned playing can be refreshing, just might not have been what I wanted tonight. One other thing it has going for it is the recording is dry, so the sound is very detailed and sort of helps the style in which Feltsman brings out counterpoint and voices.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 01, 2019, 12:21:03 AM
Quote from: milk on August 16, 2019, 11:54:37 PM
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/H5oAAOSwYXBbSCh2/s-l300.png) these recordings of WTC by Genzoh Takehisa are some of the wildest I've heard. It's worth a listen, really. The instruments sound great and are well recorded, however, I wonder if some people might passionately hate it.



Where can I get this in the UK without importing from Japan (import charges are prohibitive)? This is on youtube, and it suggests someone with something fresh to say.  Does he use a piano for the second book and a harpsichord or clavichord for the first?

https://www.youtube.com/v/tm0aKcQcdMY
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 01, 2019, 01:19:57 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 01, 2019, 12:21:03 AM


Where can I get this in the UK without importing from Japan (import charges are prohibitive)? This is on youtube, and it suggests someone with something fresh to say.  Does he use a piano for the second book and a harpsichord or clavichord for the first?

https://www.youtube.com/v/tm0aKcQcdMY
The U.S. iTunes store has it. I'm guessing UK would as well but I don't know if that quality is good enough (and some people don't use apple anything)? I believe he switches between harpsichord and fortepiano for the second book. What's really annoying is the way the books are split between 4 recordings with similar looking covers.
He's curious because he's seemingly not connected with any European teacher or instrument builder. Or, maybe I even read somewhere that he builds his own instruments. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on November 01, 2019, 01:48:40 AM
I now listened to a few more recordings of the II B flat major Prelude. Sheppard is clearly on the slow "pastoral" side, I think it becomes the longest piece in all of his book II. Jaccottet and Levin are both fast and gigue-like enough for my taste. As for the Gigue-like character, I think this is somewhat mediated. Similar to the Prelude of the A major English suite (that quotes a gigue by Dieupart? or some other French composer). Even many of the explicit dance movements by Bach are rather abstract and keep only some features of the "original", e.g. the slowish "gigues" in the first French suite or the e minor partita etc.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 01, 2019, 02:06:12 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 29, 2019, 01:24:45 AM
Unfortunately I have only Book 1 with Ross and Koroliov. So I listened to Koopman in B flat major II. He is fast enough for my taste although it does not quite sound like a gigue, it's certainly far less uniformous than Gould's. (I have a few more of course, but had not enough time to listen to them.)

That Koopman 890 prelude seems to me totally inexpressive and inhuman.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on November 01, 2019, 02:32:22 AM
I focussed more on the tempo and rhythm and whether these parameters come close to the comments about the character mentioned above. Not sure how human and inhuman sounds... ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 01, 2019, 02:50:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 01, 2019, 12:21:03 AM


Where can I get this in the UK without importing from Japan (import charges are prohibitive)? This is on youtube, and it suggests someone with something fresh to say.  Does he use a piano for the second book and a harpsichord or clavichord for the first?

https://www.youtube.com/v/tm0aKcQcdMY
I decided to buy these for download. I'd been streaming but I ended the trial for apple. Even though I'm steeped in apple products I'm annoyed with them too and don't want the apple subscription. I was lucky to catch that one is doubled on itunes. There are three recordings and I guess one more to be released. It's very weird as each recording has a mix of P/fugues from both books.
Sorry but I think Bk2 is all fortepiano. I got confused because, like I said, he mixes book 1 and 2 on each "record."
I don't know if I'm a sucker for buying it but I do think his playing is interesting and unique.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 04, 2019, 02:32:22 PM
Quote from: milk on August 16, 2019, 11:54:37 PM
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/H5oAAOSwYXBbSCh2/s-l300.png) these recordings of WTC by Genzoh Takehisa are some of the wildest I've heard. It's worth a listen, really. The instruments sound great and are well recorded, however, I wonder if some people might passionately hate it.
I have some more praise for these recordings by Genzoh Takehisa. The only problem here is that he splits book 1 and 2 over four releases, with the two books mixed on each and the fourth recording yet to come out.
That really confused and annoyed me. I can't possibly imagine the justification for such a plan.
I've come to love his performances, although I did find them off-putting at first.
Takehisa finds new angles through expressive rubato, articulation and ornamentation, and, perhaps most jarringly, through the instruments he chooses - a pedal harpsichord in Bk 1 and a fortepiano in Bk 2.
Some of the Prelude/Fugues might be comparable to other artists, while other sets sound like they're in their own universe. In Bk1, he's often heavy and dramatic -which seems counterintuitive. In Bk 2 the fortepiano brings more brittleness and sensitiveness but he uses the same elasticity to express the music. Some might find Takehisa's approach jarring at first. But I think it very musical.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on December 16, 2019, 02:26:51 PM
I just received the book Bach's Well-tempered Clavier: The 48 Preludes and Fugues by David Ledbetter and started reading it this afternoon.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81C0Poi4NJL.jpg)

In the first page he writes this: "If all of western art music were to be lost and only one work survive, this [WTC] would be the first choice of many."

I can agree with this statement.  Would you?  If not the WTC, what work would you suggest?

If there are enough responses, we could create a new thread.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 16, 2019, 02:46:22 PM
Quote from: San Antone on December 16, 2019, 02:26:51 PM
I just received the book Bach's Well-tempered Clavier: The 48 Preludes and Fugues by David Ledbetter and started reading it this afternoon.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81C0Poi4NJL.jpg)

In the first page he writes this: "If all of western art music were to be lost and only one work survive, this [WTC] would be the first choice of many."

I can agree with this statement.  Would you?  If not the WTC, what work would you suggest?

If there are enough responses, we could create a new thread.
Yes and I can't think of a close second.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: j winter on December 16, 2019, 07:03:04 PM
That's a toughie.  Not to get all lawyerly, but it depends on how you define work.

The WTC is a collection of individual preludes and fugues.  Along the same lines then, are Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas a work, or are we obliged to consider the pieces individually, since they were not published all at once?  Are we talking about a single opus number?

If we can count all 32, it's still tough but I'd personally go with Beethoven.  If we must take them individually, then I agree that the WTC is as good a candidate for preservation as I can think of --- something like the Waldstein is wonderful, but it's apples & oranges to compare it with the WTC's 3+ hours of sustained invention...

Nothing like a good Hulk vs Thor thread...  ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2019, 10:02:29 PM
Quote from: San Antone on December 16, 2019, 02:26:51 PM
I just received the book Bach's Well-tempered Clavier: The 48 Preludes and Fugues by David Ledbetter and started reading it this afternoon.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81C0Poi4NJL.jpg)

If not the WTC, what work would you suggest?


The Ring
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: ritter on December 17, 2019, 12:08:56 AM
Quote from: San Antone on December 16, 2019, 02:26:51 PM
...

In the first page he writes this: "If all of western art music were to be lost and only one work survive, this [WTC] would be the first choice of many."

I can agree with this statement.  Would you?  If not the WTC, what work would you suggest?

If there are enough responses, we could create a new thread.
Parsifal. As a friend of mine says, "Parsifal encompasses most of the music that came before it, and a good chunk of what came after it".  ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on December 17, 2019, 03:31:45 AM
WTC would be cheating, IMO, as it is not one work, but each volume is a collection of 48 pieces.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 17, 2019, 03:35:00 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 17, 2019, 03:31:45 AM
WTC would be cheating, IMO, as it is not one work, but each volume is a collection of 48 pieces.
and I imagine slipping this cheat by if I'm allowed to take something when I'm exiled. "Um, yeah, you know, WTC books 1&2 please. Sure it's one piece!"
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on December 17, 2019, 04:21:43 AM
Quote from: j winter on December 16, 2019, 07:03:04 PM
That's a toughie.  Not to get all lawyerly, but it depends on how you define work.

The WTC is a collection of individual preludes and fugues.  Along the same lines then, are Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas a work, or are we obliged to consider the pieces individually, since they were not published all at once?  Are we talking about a single opus number?

If we can count all 32, it's still tough but I'd personally go with Beethoven.  If we must take them individually, then I agree that the WTC is as good a candidate for preservation as I can think of --- something like the Waldstein is wonderful, but it's apples & oranges to compare it with the WTC's 3+ hours of sustained invention...

Nothing like a good Hulk vs Thor thread...  ;D

The WTC was at least published as a book (actually two books) of 24 preludes & fugues.  But even if they were never conceived of being played back to front, I think it is a reasonable stretch to consider the two books one work in conception.  Not sure about the 32 sonatas.

But this is not designed to be an Olympic event.   ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 17, 2019, 04:58:14 AM
Quote from: San Antone on December 17, 2019, 04:21:43 AM
The WTC was at least published as a book (actually two books) of 24 preludes & fugues.  But even if they were never conceived of being played back to front, I think it is a reasonable stretch to consider the two books one work in conception.  Not sure about the 32 sonatas.

But this is not designed to be an Olympic event.   ;)

One work in conception like, for example, the Oxford English Dictionary is one work in conception, a set of definitions arranged alphabetically. WTC is a set of pieces of music arranged by key starting at C and ascending by half tones and alternating major and minor. It's not one work in conception like, for example, the suite BWV 1004 is one work, with internal, poetic coherence, an order which is poetically, rather technically, significant.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on December 17, 2019, 05:13:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 17, 2019, 04:58:14 AM
One work in conception like, for example, the Oxford English Dictionary is one work in conception, a set of definitions arranged alphabetically. WTC is a set of pieces of music arranged by key starting at C and ascending by half tones and alternating major and minor. It's not one work in conception like, for example, the suite BWV 1004 is one work, with internal, poetic coherence, an order which is poetically, rather technically, significant.

The cover page to the WTC describes the preludes and fugues as having a conception, "for the use and improvement of musical youth eager to learn and for the particular delight of those already skilled in this discipline."

But I had hoped we could avoid the debate on what is a work and just make some suggestions in the spirit of good fun.  I think your nomination of The Ring a good choice.

8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 27, 2019, 02:07:48 PM
Andras Schiff makes a lot of arguments here that I suspect will incite disagreement. He's very interesting and gives me some insight into why a performer might need a lot of experience and wisdom to connect with the music. But some of what he says is contentious.

https://youtu.be/KbJI-tP6tNA (https://youtu.be/KbJI-tP6tNA)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on December 27, 2019, 05:29:04 PM
Quote from: milk on December 27, 2019, 02:07:48 PM
Andras Schiff makes a lot of arguments here that I suspect will incite disagreement. He's very interesting and gives me some insight into why a performer might need a lot of experience and wisdom to connect with the music. But some of what he says is contentious.

https://youtu.be/KbJI-tP6tNA (https://youtu.be/KbJI-tP6tNA)

Thanks.  Very informative.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 04, 2020, 06:56:41 AM
The points Schiff makes about instrument choice in the WTC is basically that a single instrument is not perfectly suitable for all of the preludes/fugues:

When the discussion shifted to the question of the most authentic instrument for performing Bach's keyboard music today, Schiff pointed out that while the two-manual harpsichord is ideally suited to works Bach wrote expressly for it, such as the Italian Concerto, the harpsichord can't compete with the modern piano's ability to reproduce the loud–soft dynamic of vocal-like appoggiaturas in The Well-Tempered Clavier. Book I is a collection of various preludes and fugues Bach had written in the years preceding its publication, and Schiff conceded that the composer must have had the organ originally in mind for the A minor Fugue of Book I because it demands an ending pedal note that a pianist can't produce without turning to the sustaining pedal. "This A minor Fugue is the only example in all of Bach where I must use the pedal," he said. "The pedal can do damage in Bach, destroying the voice leading, clarity of the counterpoint.

His point about the appoggiaturas is pretty convincing, IMO. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 04, 2020, 10:21:48 AM
In order to be "musical" schiff asserts  that the grace note has to sound louder than the melody note in an appoggiatura, and that on a harpsichord you can only achieve this effect by making unacceptable agogic changes to the rhythm. He gives as an example the F minor prelude from Book 2 -- BWV 881. (I note as an aside that I think there are appoggiaturas in, for example, Louis Couperin preludes. I'm not sure what schiff would say about them.)

Here's how Leonhardt deals with it

https://www.youtube.com/v/e2IeRFxTKSA

And Schiff

https://www.youtube.com/v/HSUmYPny3qI

and a rather elegant harpsichord solution from Hill, though I'm not sure whether Bach meant that! very good though, and a nice instrument.

https://www.youtube.com/v/JC7oWQRV6Pg

Chorzempa uses a piano, by the way, and plays the appoggiaturas not unlike Hill.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 04, 2020, 11:10:54 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 04, 2020, 10:21:48 AM
In order to be "musical" schiff asserts  that the grace note has to sound louder than the melody note in an appoggiatura, and that on a harpsichord you can only achieve this effect by making unacceptable agogic changes to the rhythm. He gives as an example the F minor prelude from Book 2 -- BWV 881.

Here's how Leonhardt deals with it

https://www.youtube.com/v/e2IeRFxTKSA

And Schiff

https://www.youtube.com/v/HSUmYPny3qI

and a rather elegant harpsichord solution from Hill, though I'm not sure whether Bach meant that! very good though, and a nice instrument.

https://www.youtube.com/v/JC7oWQRV6Pg

Chorzempa uses a piano, by the way, and plays the appoggiaturas not unlike Hill.

Yeah, I prefer the piano in this piece, and think Schiff makes a fair point about the obvious manner to play that figure with dynamics. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 04, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Well I don't think he makes the point fairly, on the contrary, I think he tries to bulldoze away any opposition with all that talk of "unmusical" and "Bulgarian rhythms"

By the way, listen to what Roger Woodward does with the prelude - despite having dynamics! An "unmusical" decision? I think Schiff's fill of shit there.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 04, 2020, 12:35:00 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 04, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Well I don't think he makes the point fairly, on the contrary, I think he tries to bulldoze away any opposition with all that talk of "unmusical" and "Bulgarian rhythms"

By the way, listen to what Roger Woodward does with the prelude - despite having dynamics! An "unmusical" decision? I think Schiff's fill of shit there.

It is fairly obvious for any trained musician to play these figures "as if sung" so that the appoggiatura would be emphasized and resolved with a softer dynamic.  Schiff is not "full of shit", at least I don't think he is.  It is actually a very straight-forward musical concept for which musicians are all agreed.  The only problem in executing this technique is for instruments like the harpsichord which have no method of dynamic variation and must come up with some agogic phrasing, hence his Bulgarian rhythm reference.

His overall point is that there is no single instrument for which every prelude and fugue is ideally suited.  But for Bach's day, the clavichord would be used for dynamic changes, but may not have the range, the harpsichord may have the range but lack the dynamic control and sustain, which the organ would have, as well as the range, but again not the dynamic aspect.

For us, the piano is ideally suited for some of the pieces over the harpsichord, or the clavichord or the organ, this prelude being one of them.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 04, 2020, 01:04:48 PM
Quote from: San Antone on January 04, 2020, 12:35:00 PM
It is fairly obvious for any trained musician . . . it is actually a very straightforward musical concept for which musicians are all agreed


That's exactly the sort of browbeating which Schiff indulges in, and which gets my  back up. It wasn't obvious to Roger Woodward. Is he not a trained musician? Is he unmusical? By all means argue that he made a bad decision, but just saying "it's obvious" or "it's unmusical" is not an argument.

Now, distinguish between

1. The best way to play XYX is . . . and this is only possible if you have dynamics . . .

2. One way to play XYZ If you have dynamics is . . .

3. The only musical way to play XYZ is . . . anything else is unmusical.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 04, 2020, 01:30:24 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 04, 2020, 01:04:48 PM

That's exactly the sort of browbeating which Schiff indulges in, and which gets up back up. It wasn't obvious to Roger Woodward. Is he not a trained musician? Is he unmusical? By all means argue that he made a bad decision, but just saying "it's obvious" or "it's unmusical" is not an argument.

Now, distinguish between

1. The best way to play XYX is . . . and this is only possible if you have dynamics . . .

2. One way to play XYZ If you have dynamics is . . .

3. The only musical way to play XYZ is . . . anything else is unmusical.

Some pianists might think that it would be Romanticizing the music too much and purposely try to mimic the harpsichord.  I haven't listened to Roger Woodward is a while and don't remember how he plays these figures, but that might be why.  Schiff does not use the sustain pedal because he thinks it muddies the counterpoint, but argues convincingly, at least IMO, how for this prelude the piano is better suited.

Only a harpsichord chauvinist would argue the point, IMO.   8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 04, 2020, 01:31:18 PM
Quote from: San Antone on January 04, 2020, 01:30:24 PM

Only a harpsichord chauvinist would argue the point, IMO.   8)

That's a very stupid thing to say.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 04, 2020, 01:32:31 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 04, 2020, 01:31:18 PM
That's a very stupid thing to say.

I was not entirely serious, hence the emoji.  You may be too ego-invested in this issue to relax and see some humor.

Btw, Schiff does not say that how Leonhardt plays is "unmusical" but if someone were to sing the figure in that manner, it would be unmusical.  Iow, for any instrument that can execute dynamics, these figures are played in that manner, to not do so is unmusical.  But if your instrument cannot execute dynamics, then you must come up with some other musical way to play these figures.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 04, 2020, 01:45:14 PM
There is another point I want to make -

If your goal is to use only the instruments available to Bach and play this music in a manner as he might have done, that is a historical way to play these pieces.  However, if your goal is to produce the most beautiful sound this music can achieve, despite using instruments unavailable to Bach, then you are playing in an non-historical method and concerned primarily with aesthetical issues instead of historical authenticity.

Both can be musical.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 04, 2020, 01:50:19 PM
I just listened to Roger Woodward.  He trills on the appoggiatura plus dynamically softening the resolution, and delaying it rhythmically a small amount.  That is more than what Schiff does, and a whole lot more than what Leonhardt does.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 06, 2020, 02:57:59 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 04, 2020, 01:32:31 PM
I was not entirely serious, hence the emoji.  You may be too ego-invested in this issue to relax and see some humor.

Btw, Schiff does not say that how Leonhardt plays is "unmusical" but if someone were to sing the figure in that manner, it would be unmusical.  Iow, for any instrument that can execute dynamics, these figures are played in that manner, to not do so is unmusical.  But if your instrument cannot execute dynamics, then you must come up with some other musical way to play these figures.
unmusical? I don't think so. I like Schiff but I think dynamics are the potential of the piano that I'm most sensitive too. It's why I rarely put on Chopin: the thing starts out quiet and the next thing I know it's banging through the speakers. I'm glad HIP came around so there are many ways to hear Bach. Notice Schiff says "no pedal." Some might say, like you, that there's some place in the music that it would be unmusical not to push it.
I just think there are many ways to hear Bach. Schiff might hear cantabile here and that can lead to something good. I'm glad it's not the only thing. There are limits to the piano too in the way it connects and can't connect notes and sounds.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 06, 2020, 04:27:46 AM
Quote from: milk on January 06, 2020, 02:57:59 AM
unmusical? I don't think so. I like Schiff but I think dynamics are the potential of the piano that I'm most sensitive too. It's why I rarely put on Chopin: the thing starts out quiet and the next thing I know it's banging through the speakers. I'm glad HIP came around so there are many ways to hear Bach. Notice Schiff says "no pedal." Some might say, like you, that there's some place in the music that it would be unmusical not to push it.
I just think there are many ways to hear Bach. Schiff might hear cantabile here and that can lead to something good. I'm glad it's not the only thing. There are limits to the piano too in the way it connects and can't connect notes and sounds.

Schiff was focusing on one figure in one prelude, an appoggiatura, which is sometimes referred to as a "sighing" figure.  Almost always an appoggiatura is sung with the emphasis on the first note and then a softening on the resolution.  It is pretty straight-forward and I doubt you will find any musician who would disagree.  The only time this figure is not played in this manner is if you are playing an instrument which cannot execute dynamics, e.g. an harpsichord. 

"Unmusical" is Schiff's characterization for someone to sing an appoggiatura contrary to this "sighing" phrasing.  His word, maybe a bit harsh, but which I can understand.

Your problem with Chopin and the piano's dynamic potential might be related to a specific performer's interpretation, or recordings which are not engineered very well, or any number of reasons.  Chopin wrote his works specifically to exploit the capabilities of the piano.  Bach wrote for the keyboard instruments of his time, but in almost every work there are things which either difficult or impossible to play, which leads me to think that Bach was thinking outside the box of his time.  He might have thought of his compositions abstractly, i.e. hearing them ideally in his head in a manner which he knew could not be realized with the instruments at hand.

I don't know.  But what cannot be ignored is that concerning the preludes and fugues in The Well-Tempered Clavier, Schiff is correct in saying that there is no single instrument from Bach's time which can execute all of the music in every one of the preludes and fugues in an ideal manner, or even at all in some cases.  Some instruments do not have the range, some cannot execute dynamics and some cannot sustain a note long enough. The piano comes closest, but even it cannot sustain a note long enough without the aid of the pedal (which Schiff uses, but does not like it since it clouds the counterpoint).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 06, 2020, 04:51:05 AM
I wonder how people in the first half of the c17 would have executed appoggiaturas on a clavichord. My suspicion is that the convention to play appoggiaturas with dynamics is a piano convention, and hence a red herring.

Neither Tuma nor Kirkpatrick (who use a clavichord) doesn't use dynamics to mark the sighing figure  (and Kirkpatrick has a huge dynamic potential in his instrument) , or if they do it's very very subtle.

Anyway, don't confuse

1. Cantabile, singing style
2. Making the appoggiatures sigh
3. Drawing attention to the first note
4. Playing the first note more forcefully.

F.e. Rubsam plays cantabile, he makes them sigh, he draws attention to the first note and he doesn't (can't) play the first note louder.

I just think it's daft to claim that this prelude needs to be played on a piano to come off - and that's Schiff's claim. I could list 10 people who do a much better job of it than Schiff does, and they certainly don't use a piano!

But most of all Schiff's way of arguing the point seems to me offensive and disingenuous, and indeed so does San Antone's with his "I don't think you'll find any musician who'll disagree."  Egarr (author of "cantabile heaven") Kirkpatrick, Rübsam (whole based his whole approach on a study of cantabile), Tuma,  Hill, Leonhardt, Asperen, Woodward, etc etc don't agree. Maybe they're not musicians.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 06, 2020, 05:09:16 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 06, 2020, 04:51:05 AM
I wonder how people in the first half of the c17 would have executed appoggiaturas on a clavichord. My suspicion is that the convention to play appoggiaturas with dynamics is a piano convention, and hence a red herring.

Neither Tuma nor Kirkpatrick (who use a clavichord) doesn't use dynamics to mark the sighing figure  (and Kirkpatrick has a huge dynamic potential in his instrument) , or if they do it's very very subtle.

Anyway, don't confuse

1. Cantabile, singing style
2. Making the appoggiatures sigh
3. Drawing attention to the first note
4. Playing the first note more forcefully.

F.e. Rubsam plays cantabile, he makes them sigh, he draws attention to the first note and he doesn't (can't) play the first note louder.

I just think it's daft to claim that this prelude needs to be played on a piano to come off - and that's Schiff's claim. I could list 10 people who do a much better job of it than Schiff does, and they certainly don't use a piano!

But most of all Schiff's way of arguing the point seems to me offensive and disingenuous, and indeed so does San Antone's with his "I don't think you'll find any musician who'll disagree."  Egarr (author of "cantabile heaven") Kirkpatrick, Rübsam (whole based his whole approach on a study of cantabile), Tuma,  Hill, Leonhardt, Asperen, Woodward, etc etc don't agree. Maybe they're not musicians.

Well, you are conflating singing the appoggiatura with playing it on a keyboard instrument.  I am pretty sure people could sing in the 17th century.  And I feel confident that musicians all agree on how to sing an appoggiatura - which is also how it is normally replicated on an instrument, if the instrument can execute the dynamics.  (I am pretty sure a clavichord can execute dynamics.)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 06, 2020, 05:22:21 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 06, 2020, 05:09:16 AM
Well, you are conflating singing the appoggiatura with playing it on a keyboard instrument.  I am pretty sure people could sing in the 17th century.  And I feel confident that musicians all agree on how to sing an appoggiatura - which is also how it is normally replicated on an instrument, if the instrument can execute the dynamics.  (I am pretty sure a clavichord can execute dynamics.)


A clavichord has dynamics. If Tuma and Kirkpatrick are using it in the figure, it's very subtle. To create a sighing gesture, you need to draw attention to the first note -- and playing it louder is just one way. What Rubsam does in 881 isn't singable -- is it cantabile keyboard playing? See what you think.

What I'm investigating is whether you can create the sighing gesture, play cantabile and not use dynamics.

(By the way, when people say that a clavichord doesn't have the range for some of the WTC pieces, what do they mean?)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 06, 2020, 05:55:00 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 06, 2020, 05:22:21 AM

A clavichord has dynamics. If Tuma and Kirkpatrick are using it in the figure, it's very subtle. To create a sighing gesture, you need to draw attention to the first note -- and playing it louder is just one way. What Rubsam does in 881 isn't singable -- is it cantabile keyboard playing? See what you think.

What I'm investigating is whether you can create the sighing gesture, play cantabile and not use dynamics.

(By the way, when people say that a clavichord doesn't have the range for some of the WTC pieces, what do they mean?)

Re: Range. A clavichord has fewer keys, I think it has maybe a four octave range; whereas a harpsichord has about five octaves, some maybe more; organs have widest ranges but vary; while the modern piano has 88 keys spanning more than ten octaves.

For a long time singing was the only or primary form of making music, and the singing style became the prototype for performance.  The goal was for a musician to imitate the singing style on their instrument as much as possible and there is at least one treatise which discusses how Bach demanded a singing style, which can easily be achieved on string or wind instruments.  It is only on keyboard instruments of Bach's day where producing a singing style is harder to achieve. 

The agogic phrasing is one way I know of to imply a singing style on the harpsichord (there may be others, I am no expert), I wrote "imply" because no one would actually sing the line that way, but it is what a harpsichord can do to distinguish the figure.  I consider it far less obvious or pleasing than having an instrument that can simply execute dynamics much like the human voice.  A piano is nowhere near as facile in this regard as a wind instrument, but at least you can play dynamics.  Vibrato is also a component of a singing style, which a clavichord can do, which might be why it is said that the clavichord was Bach's favorite instrument. However, it is limited in volume production and is only suitable for private playing.  A piano cannot play with vibrato, but is less limited than all the other keyboard instruments.

Rubsam's lute-harpsichord recordings have become almost un-listenable to me, they are too herky-jerky.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 06, 2020, 07:14:19 AM
So why does he say that some of WTC isn't playable on a clavichord? Which bits can't you fit on one?

Do you think that Rübsam's style is not correctly called cantabile?  He talks explicitly about how he wants to make the voices sing - maybe you think he can't walk the walk.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on January 06, 2020, 09:06:19 AM
Quote
while the modern piano has 88 keys spanning more than ten octaves.

88 keys is just over 7 octaves  [/pedant]
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 06, 2020, 10:58:47 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 06, 2020, 09:06:19 AM
88 keys is just over 7 octaves  [/pedant]

Yep, you're right.   :-[

Quote from: Mandryka on January 06, 2020, 07:14:19 AM
So why does he say that some of WTC isn't playable on a clavichord? Which bits can't you fit on one?

I am not sure in which pieces, but there are some notes out of its range. 

Quote from: Mandryka on January 06, 2020, 07:14:19 AMDo you think that Rübsam's style is not correctly called cantabile?  He talks explicitly about how he wants to make the voices sing - maybe you think he can't walk the walk.

He may indeed be trying to achieve that.  However, the manner that he uses with the exaggerated (IMO) staggering of the counterpoint, while at first I found intriguing, over time began to become tiresome for me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 06, 2020, 11:16:41 AM
I think it was common practice in the c16 and early c17 to take a keyboard score and adjust it to the instrument at your disposal - the tuning for example, and the number and type of keyboards and pedalboards  etc, we had this come up with AoF recently.

In truth I really doubt that any part of WTC can't fit on a clavichord of the time, I have a couple of recordings of it on clavichord, when I heard Schiff say that I thought I'd misunderstood the idea of range, that's why I asked. Maybe there were some unusually small clavichords, I don't know. I think Schiff was being disingenuous, again. You can see he's got up my nose.

Re Rubsam, he says that his way of staggering counterpoint is taken directly from Italian madrigal style. And I can see what he's getting at, if you listen to some Frescobaldi madrigals for example. And of course, madrigals are sung, so we're back to that . . .
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 06, 2020, 11:29:48 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 06, 2020, 11:16:41 AM
I think it was common practice in the c16 and early c17 to take a keyboard score and adjust it to the instrument at your disposal - the tuning for example, and the number and type of keyboards and pedalboards  etc, we had this come up with AoF recently.

In truth I really doubt that any part of WTC can't fit on a clavichord of the time, I have a couple of recordings of it on clavichord, when I heard Schiff say that I thought I'd misunderstood the idea of range, that's why I asked. Maybe there were some unusually small clavichords, I don't know. I think Schiff was being disingenuous, again. You can see he's got up my nose.

Just because you've heard recordings of the WTC played on a clavichord does not mean that "as written" every note was within its range.  A musician could just move the note up an octave if it were too low, or vice verse if too high.  Again, I don't know which pieces would not work "as written" on a normal clavichord.  Schiff said he had one in his home in Florence and loved playing it.  I don't understand your antipathy toward him; I sincerely doubt he is being disingenuous.

It could be you just prefer hearing Bach played on a harpsichord, I don't know.  For myself, I enjoy Bach on any instrument.  When I was in music school I studied the marimba and played some of the WTC with four mallets.  My teacher was somewhat obsessive about his students learning this rather difficult exercise.  But it sounded wonderful to me then, and still does.

Quote from: Mandryka on January 06, 2020, 11:16:41 AMRe Rubsam, he says that his way of staggering counterpoint is taken directly from Italian madrigal style. And I can see what he's getting at, if you listen to some Frescobaldi madrigals for example. And of course, madrigals are sung, so we're back to that . . .

I believe him; but that changes nothing about the way it sounds to me.   8)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 06, 2020, 11:35:50 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 06, 2020, 11:29:48 AM.

It could be you just prefer hearing Bach played on a harpsichord, I don't know.  For myself, I enjoy Bach on any instrument.  When I was in music school I studied the marimba and played some of the WTC with four mallets.  My teacher was somewhat obsessive about his students learning this rather difficult exercise.  But it sounded wonderful to me then, and still does. . . I believe him; but that changes nothing about the way it sounds to me.   8)


I'm trying to keep my preferences out of it, anyway they change with the wind. And really they're irrelevant and a private thing - I don't care what you like, why should you care what i like? Keep it to yourself! If I ever expressed a preference or a distaste then it was a lapse of my normal good judgement and modesty. Anyway re Schiff I think you're being a bit gullible to be honest, but I await to be proved wrong.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 06, 2020, 12:03:03 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 06, 2020, 11:35:50 AM
I'm trying to keep my preferences out of it, anyway they change with the wind. And really they're irrelevant and a private thing - I don't care what you like, why should you care what i like? Keep it to yourself! If I ever expressed a preference or a distaste then it was a lapse of my normal good judgement and modesty. Anyway re Schiff I think you're being a bit gullible to be honest, but I await to be proved wrong.

I am curious, and you need not answer if you don't like my question, but do you play the piano or any instrument?  The reason why I ask is because it strikes me as if you are coming to this issue in an abstract manner unrelated to the experience of playing the music.

I do not have discussions about music outside of the context of what I enjoy to hear.  I consider all questions about music to be subjective and I am not interested in a "philosophical" discussion about it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 06, 2020, 12:31:06 PM
Oh there are some composers I don't enjoy much, but for some reason I've spend time trying to come to terms with them, I don't know why, I guess they must have exerted some subliminal magnetic pull,  and so I'm interested to discuss them. Beethoven is an example, and Shostakovich.  But you're not going to see me get into any conversations about, I dunno, Rachmaninov or Liszt.

I played piano to quite a reasonable standard when I was a kid, and to a lesser extent guitar, I gave it all up, I didn't enjoy it. Too hard!

What's your instrument?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 06, 2020, 01:13:43 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 06, 2020, 12:31:06 PM
Oh there are some composers I don't enjoy much, but for some reason I've spend time trying to come to terms with them, I don't know why, I guess they must have exerted some subliminal magnetic pull,  and so I'm interested to discuss them. Beethoven is an example, and Shostakovich.  But you're not going to see me get into any conversations about, I dunno, Rachmaninov or Liszt.

I played piano to quite a reasonable standard when I was a kid, and to a lesser extent guitar, I gave it all up, I didn't enjoy it. Too hard!

What's your instrument?

I started out on guitar, then studied piano for years and got pretty good in classical (I've played a lot of Bach, and loved it).  But my primary background has been in jazz, as a bassist.  I played professionally for 15-20 years and then got interested in songwriting.  Which I  have done as for the last 30 years.  I've played several string instruments, and as I said studied percussion in music school, but about all I play these days are guitar and banjo.

Although my music degree is in Theory and Composition, the most important things I've learned were from playing with other musicians and in a non-reading environment.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 06, 2020, 02:36:15 PM
Quote from: San Antone on January 06, 2020, 04:27:46 AM
Schiff was focusing on one figure in one prelude, an appoggiatura, which is sometimes referred to as a "sighing" figure.  Almost always an appoggiatura is sung with the emphasis on the first note and then a softening on the resolution.  It is pretty straight-forward and I doubt you will find any musician who would disagree.  The only time this figure is not played in this manner is if you are playing an instrument which cannot execute dynamics, e.g. an harpsichord. 

"Unmusical" is Schiff's characterization for someone to sing an appoggiatura contrary to this "sighing" phrasing.  His word, maybe a bit harsh, but which I can understand.

Your problem with Chopin and the piano's dynamic potential might be related to a specific performer's interpretation, or recordings which are not engineered very well, or any number of reasons.  Chopin wrote his works specifically to exploit the capabilities of the piano.  Bach wrote for the keyboard instruments of his time, but in almost every work there are things which either difficult or impossible to play, which leads me to think that Bach was thinking outside the box of his time.  He might have thought of his compositions abstractly, i.e. hearing them ideally in his head in a manner which he knew could not be realized with the instruments at hand.

I don't know.  But what cannot be ignored is that concerning the preludes and fugues in The Well-Tempered Clavier, Schiff is correct in saying that there is no single instrument from Bach's time which can execute all of the music in every one of the preludes and fugues in an ideal manner, or even at all in some cases.  Some instruments do not have the range, some cannot execute dynamics and some cannot sustain a note long enough. The piano comes closest, but even it cannot sustain a note long enough without the aid of the pedal (which Schiff uses, but does not like it since it clouds the counterpoint).
yes it's just personal taste that the temptation to use the dynamics of the piano in the genre of that time wears  on me.
Unrelated:
@Mandryka sample Takehisa's 881 some time if you can find it. It's weird and beautiful. He does use the dynamics of the fortepiano, but always in a way that surprises me.
I really need to listen more carefully. I like Schiff and and as far as I can tell, he does it pretty subtly on his last recording. I'm not hearing dynamics in this prelude on. Vieru, Crossland, Woodward or maybe it's just very subtle.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 07, 2020, 12:45:16 AM
Quote from: milk on January 06, 2020, 02:36:15 PM

@Mandryka sample Takehisa's 881 some time if you can find it. It's weird and beautiful. He does use the dynamics of the fortepiano, but always in a way that surprises me.
I really need to listen more carefully. I like Schiff and and as far as I can tell, he does it pretty subtly on his last recording. I'm not hearing dynamics in this prelude on. Vieru, Crossland, Woodward or maybe it's just very subtle.

Impossible to find the Takehisa. If you can't hear the dynamic changes in Vieru, Crossland etc, it may as well not be there! In the Woodward if indeed there is dynamic emphasis there it's pointless as he trills the first note.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 07, 2020, 12:50:56 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 06, 2020, 04:27:46 AM

The piano comes closest,

No, that's not true,  we've already seen that the range issue may well be a red herring, I'll maybe investigate the range required for WTC and the normal compass of a clavichords and harpsichords, later. Furthermore  the piano does not have the requisite brilliance, some of the pieces benefit from that. The G major Book 1 for example.

This leaves sustain. Can you provide some examples please?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 07, 2020, 01:11:58 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 07, 2020, 12:45:16 AM
Impossible to find the Takehisa. If you can't hear the dynamic changes in Vieru, Crossland etc, it may as well not be there! In the Woodward if indeed there is dynamic emphasis there it's pointless as he trills the first note.
You have no access to the U.S. iTunes store or maybe, maybe, UK, one? That's where I went. His 881 is like nothing I've heard. And his dynamics are so weirdly beautiful. Sounds like a harp or something. Wait, can I give it to you or will it be locked?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: j winter on January 07, 2020, 05:35:25 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 04, 2020, 01:45:14 PM
There is another point I want to make -

If your goal is to use only the instruments available to Bach and play this music in a manner as he might have done, that is a historical way to play these pieces.  However, if your goal is to produce the most beautiful sound this music can achieve, despite using instruments unavailable to Bach, then you are playing in an non-historical method and concerned primarily with aesthetical issues instead of historical authenticity.

Both can be musical.

Well said :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 07, 2020, 05:45:35 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 07, 2020, 12:50:56 AM
No, that's not true,  we've already seen that the range issue may well be a red herring, I'll maybe investigate the range required for WTC and the normal compass of a clavichords and harpsichords, later.

Yes, do that.  Here is some info on range I found in a paper by Richard  Loucks (http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1081&context=ppr):

For  Volume  I  the  range  must  be  chromatic  from  C  to  c'''    This excludes the  ubiquitous C/E-c'''  clavichords  (with  short  octave),  because they  lack  C#,  Eb,  F#,  and  G# (EDIT: Short  octave  keyboards eliminated  bass notes  for which  there  was  little use).   There  is  no  movement  among  the ninety-six preludes  and  fugues  that  does not  make  use of one or  more  of these  notes.  Even  instruments  with  a  broken  octave  must  be  excluded, because  they  still  lack C# and  Eb, rather  common  notes  in Volume  I. (EDIT: the  term  "broken  octave"  denotes  a  short  octave  in  which  D/F#   is split  into  two  keys  (a  rear  key and  a  front  key)  that  produce  both  notes.   Likewise  E/G# is split.)

Volume  II, however, requires  a chromatic range  from  A' to  d''' ... (EDIT: ... which is beyond the lowest note of most clavichords of his time. There were only two known to exist as early as 1742; Bach compiled Book II in 1744.  But the obvious solution is to move the low notes up an octave.)

Then there is the issue of fretted or non-fretted clavichords.  Obviously a fretted instrument could not play two notes simultaneously on the same string, and the un-fretted instrument was not as common during Bach's time, but we assume Bach owned an un-fretted instrument.

QuoteFurthermore  the piano does not have the requisite brilliance, some of the pieces benefit from that. The G major Book 1 for example.

I won't address this statement since it is your opinion and not a fact.

QuoteThis leaves sustain. Can you provide some examples please?

There is only one: the a-minor fugue in Book 1 has in its final bars a pedal tone which can't be played with two hands alone without a sustain pedal, thus possibly thought of by Bach for the organ.

I think Bach wrote these 48 preludes and fugues without forcing himself to think of them for a single instrument.  Many of them were written years before and only later collected into the two books.  I doubt Bach was troubled by the fact that they all could not be played on a single instrument, and neither am I.  He probably never thought of them as concert pieces, he used them for pedagogical purposes.  The thought of playing them all back to front, in one sitting may have been odd to him.  I don't know.  However, seems I read somewhere where one of his pupils said he did this very thing.  But who's to say he did not move notes up an octave when necessary and make other adjustments on the fly.  Bach was an expert improviser.

The fact remains, the music stands as objective evidence: the pieces as written are not playable on any single instrument.  In order to do so, one must make adjustments, either moving up an octave, or releasing notes before their full duration has been achieved, or using the sustain pedal.  This is not to mention the issue of dynamics, which do not effect playability but how one hears the most musical manner (very subjective) of phrasing certain figures.

Which instrument used depends on choices on the part of the performer: how much importance they place on a historically accurate attempt or not (i.e. using only instruments available to Bach); whether using dynamics is important or not; whether they are performing in a large room or not.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 07, 2020, 06:15:03 AM
I'll tell you one aspect of this which we haven't explored at all, Bach's way of writing music which can't be played. Do you remember I found a list in Leonhardt's monograph on AoF which included unplayable music in the English suites and WTC and elsewhere? I can easily find it again. I'm not sure what conclusions to draw about that. And I wonder if other composers do the same sort of thing.

Here it is  - I haven't checked the scores, and if anyone finds a problem please say because I could have copied it wrongly

Brandenburg 5, 1st movement, m. 192
D minor English Suite, at the end of the allemande
G minor English Suite, m. 24
Canonic Variations v. 5 m. 55
Four places in WTC1 -- I can provide the details if anyone wants.

In cpt IX m. 94, Cpt IV m. 35, Cpt V m. 41 and m. 60 you have a problem for keyboard because two voices meet at one note, but the duration of one is greater than the duration of the other -- which isn't possible to be heard on a harpsichord or clavichord. You have exactly this problem in

CU 3 Vater Unser (pedaliter) m.13
Orgelbuchlein Christe du lamm gottes m. 3
and three places in WTC 1.

The WTC examples may be worth exploring if anyone's interested, given the context of the discussion here. I haven't explored what's going on myself because I haven't given much attention to the first book.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 08, 2020, 05:15:01 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 04, 2020, 01:45:14 PM
There is another point I want to make -

If your goal is to use only the instruments available to Bach and play this music in a manner as he might have done, that is a historical way to play these pieces.  However, if your goal is to produce the most beautiful sound this music can achieve, despite using instruments unavailable to Bach, then you are playing in an non-historical method and concerned primarily with aesthetical issues instead of historical authenticity.

Both can be musical.
As long as your not suggesting that harpsichordists believe they're sacrificing beautiful sound in the singular pursuit of authenticity. You'd agree that a harpsichordist can believe that the most beautiful sound comes from her instrument. Plus, one could imagine playing the music on an historical instrument but not necessarily in a manner Bach played?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 08, 2020, 05:26:57 AM
Quote from: milk on January 08, 2020, 05:15:01 AM
As long as your not suggesting that harpsichordists believe they're sacrificing beautiful sound in the singular pursuit of authenticity. You'd agree that a harpsichordist can believe that the most beautiful sound comes from her instrument. Plus, one could imagine playing the music on an historical instrument but not necessarily in a manner Bach played?

Yes, I suppose there are people who think the harpsichord produces as beautiful or a more beautiful sound than the piano (I don't think that); but we'll never know how Bach played in any event.  Everyone is following their own instincts and plays this music to the best of their ability.  For me, the piano is the best instrument for this music - but it can be abused and cloud the counterpoint. 

Schiff, IMO, is one of the best interpreters of Bach on the piano.  There are others, but his ECM recordings benefit from excellent sound and his experience of having spent a lifetime with the music.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 09, 2020, 04:29:52 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 08, 2020, 05:26:57 AM
Yes, I suppose there are people who think the harpsichord produces as beautiful or a more beautiful sound than the piano (I don't think that); but we'll never know how Bach played in any event.  Everyone is following their own instincts and plays this music to the best of their ability.  For me, the piano is the best instrument for this music - but it can be abused and cloud the counterpoint. 

Schiff, IMO, is one of the best interpreters of Bach on the piano.  There are others, but his ECM recordings benefit from excellent sound and his experience of having spent a lifetime with the music.
I like Schiff but my tastes switch around and this is aided by my poor memory. Likewise, when something is great, it feels like the best to me, so when I'm listening to Masaaki Suzuki play the partitas, I think it's the best I've ever heard (and this goes for many performers for different works and on many instruments). I used to think that the partitas were especially suited for the harpsichord though. I go through phases when I'm only into piano and can't take the harpsichord too. I don't really accept a hierarchy which would mean there's not much use for the harpsichord. I love those old instruments and don't feel they're aesthetically less. I'm also sure HIP made pianists better.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 09, 2020, 04:40:04 AM
Quote from: milk on January 09, 2020, 04:29:52 AM
I like Schiff but my tastes switch around and this is aided by my poor memory. Likewise, when something is great, it feels like the best to me, so when I'm listening to Masaaki Suzuki play the partitas, I think it's the best I've ever heard (and this goes for many performers for different works and on many instruments). I used to think that the partitas were especially suited for the harpsichord though. I go through phases when I'm only into piano and can't take the harpsichord too. I don't really accept a hierarchy which would mean there's not much use for the harpsichord. I love those old instruments and don't feel they're aesthetically less. I'm also sure HIP made pianists better.

I may prefer the piano, but that is not all I listen to.  From time to time I will listen to harpsichord recordings, and enjoy them.  And there are some instruments that I think sound beautiful.  But the majority of the time I choose to listen to Bach on the piano.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 09, 2020, 04:54:56 AM
When I heard him play BK 2 last year in London, I enjoyed it more than the ECM recording partly because the portato seemed more natural for piano. The performance is on youtube.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 09, 2020, 05:17:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 09, 2020, 04:54:56 AM
When I heard him play BK 2 last year in London, I enjoyed it more than the ECM recording partly because the portato seemed more natural for piano. The performance is on youtube.

I am not sure what you mean by this, "the portato seemed more natural for piano."  "Portato" is a term usually applied to string/bowed playing, i.e. each note, while played with one bowing motion, is articulated gently staccato.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 09, 2020, 05:36:08 AM
The liaison between one note and the next, one phrase and the next. The touch.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 10, 2020, 04:41:01 AM
I wonder what people think of Steven Devine's WTC. I think there's only bk1. It's tasteful with pleasing instrument.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 10, 2020, 02:40:09 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 09, 2020, 05:36:08 AM
The liaison between one note and the next, one phrase and the next. The touch.
If you are able to acquire and listen Genzoh Takehisa's WTC could you give some impressions. What's he up to? Is it as out of left field as it sounds to my ears or does it resemble some historical playing tradition. Do you think he's using the instruments in a conventional way? What are you hearing? How about the pedal (harpsichord) he throws into BK1?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 10, 2020, 07:59:44 PM
Yes, I've been listening a bit to Tekahisa and to Schiff in fact, in WTC 2.  I feel very positive about Tekahisa.

Tekahisa makes everything sound like a natural and spontaneous outpouring. There's a sense of liberty and of fantasy. I especially appreciate the finesse of his ornamentation. He does not hide Bach's musical clashes, caesuras and ruptures - these are the things which make the music come alive.

Tekahisa does something very much to my taste - he uses rubato to vary the pulse of each piece, without losing a sense of fluidity and indeed lyricism when required.

I like Tekahisa's piano, partly because of the contrast of the timbres in the different registers.


Quote from: milk on January 10, 2020, 02:40:09 PM
What's he up to? Is it as out of left field as it sounds to my ears or does it resemble some historical playing tradition.

I don't think it's left field - it seems very much inspired by the sense of rubato and the freedom of performers such as Bob Van Asperen  and Samuil Feinberg. He doesn't have anything to envy these other musicians for, IMO.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 05:10:57 AM
Quote from: milk on January 10, 2020, 02:40:09 PM
If you are able to acquire and listen Genzoh Takehisa's WTC could you give some impressions. What's he up to? Is it as out of left field as it sounds to my ears or does it resemble some historical playing tradition. Do you think he's using the instruments in a conventional way? What are you hearing? How about the pedal (harpsichord) he throws into BK1?

It's not for me, for a couple of basic reasons: I don't like the instrument and I really don't like his phrasing of the music.

This is more of what I like:

(https://i1.sndcdn.com/artworks-000376227963-3whbqf-t500x500.jpg)

Cedric Pescia - WTC




Nicely done.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 05:44:39 AM
Let me try some nonsense out on you.

There are two approaches to wtc, viz:

On the rails, the voices all singing from the same hymn sheet, all aligned rhythmically, all working together. More or less the same perceivable basic pulse throughout each piece.


Jazzy - the opposite of the on the rails approach. Each voice singing its own way, sometimes one voice interrupting another, pulling another back.

Examples. Pescia and Leonhardt and Kenneth Gilbert and Richter are on the rails. Van Asperen and Rubsam and Tekahisa and Glenn Wilson and Céline Frisch are Jazzy.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 06:09:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 05:44:39 AM
Let me try some nonsense out on you.

There are two approaches to wtc, viz:

On the rails, the voices all singing from the same hymn sheet, all aligned rhythmically, all working together. More or less the same perceivable basic pulse throughout each piece.


Jazzy - the opposite of the on the rails approach. Each voice singing its own way, sometimes one voice interrupting another, pulling another back.

Examples. Pescia and Leonhardt and Kenneth Gilbert and Richter are on the rails. Van Asperen and Rubsam and Tekahisa and Glenn Wilson and Céline Frisch are Jazzy.

I understand your analogy, but in any ensemble it is considered a defect if they are not singing in a synchronized manner, i.e. as one voice.  Orchestras spend more rehearsal time on this aspect than any other, each section among themselves (string sections bowing in exactly the same) and then each section with the others.  It is even more important for vocal ensembles.

For me, these works for keyboard are contrapuntal in which the subject and answer move from voice to voice and that primary voice ought to be brought out.  But it bothers me when the lines themselves are not unified into a multifaceted whole.  That is more like a jazz group than your idea.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 07:19:21 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 06:09:13 AM


For me, these works for keyboard are contrapuntal in which the subject and answer move from voice to voice and that primary voice ought to be brought out.  But it bothers me when the lines themselves are not unified into a multifaceted whole.  That is more like a jazz group than your idea.


Everyone wants a multifaceted whole! It's just that some people are prepared to explore more complexity than primary and subsidiary voices.

Quote from: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 06:09:13 AM
it is considered a defect if they are not singing in a synchronized manner, i.e. as one voice.  Orchestras spend more rehearsal time on this aspect than any other, each section among themselves (string sections bowing in exactly the same) and then each section with the others.  It is even more important for vocal ensembles.


Insidious slip into the passive voice here . . . "it is considered"

Harnoncourt wouldn't have thought like that.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 08:11:26 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 07:19:21 AM
Everyone wants a multifaceted whole! It's just that some people are prepared to explore more complexity than primary and subsidiary voices.

I think you are looking for unicorns.

Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 07:19:21 AMInsidious slip into the passive voice here . . . "it is considered"

It is considered among all musicians that ensemble playing is supposed to be unified and not sloppy.

Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 07:19:21 AMHarnoncourt wouldn't have thought like that.

I doubt that is true.  The purpose of a conductor spends most of their time to achieve ensemble playing that is unified.  That is their purpose. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 09:25:49 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 08:11:26 AM


It is considered among all musicians that ensemble playing is supposed to be unified


What! Even when they're playing a string quartet by Elliott Carter?


Quote from: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 08:11:26 AM


I doubt that is true.  The purpose of a conductor spends most of their time to achieve ensemble playing that is unified.  That is their purpose.


See what you think of Harnoncourt's Four Seasons, or the relation between voice and instrument in BWV 6/iii -- Ach bleib bei uns, Herr Jesu Christ.

Quote from: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 08:11:26 AM

I think you are looking for unicorns.



You need to listen to more Frescobaldi or de Wert madrigals.  Or indeed Rubsam's Goldberg Variations.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 11:42:56 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 09:25:49 AM
What! Even when they're playing a string quartet by Elliott Carter?

Strawman.

Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 09:25:49 AMSee what you think of Harnoncourt's Four Seasons, or the relation between voice and instrument in BWV 6/iii -- Ach bleib bei uns, Herr Jesu Christ.

I don't like the Four Seasons, and never listen to it.  And am not interested in tracking down your examples, since I can pretty much guarantee that it will change nothing in what I think of your point.

Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 09:25:49 AMYou need to listen to more Frescobaldi or de Wert madrigals.  Or indeed Rubsam's Goldberg Variations.

I have heard those Rubsam recordings, and don't like what he does; I would even say I hate what he does.  I disagreed with your first analogy and tried to explain why, and all it has done is encourage you to bring up more examples that are even less relevant and farther afield. 

What I have learned from various discussions with you on GMG is that you get something in your head and keep re-phrasing it it no matter how I respond.  You get deeper and deeper into your own hypothesis and it is pointless for me to contribute anything more since you are essentially having a conversation with yourself.

We obviously look for and appreciate different qualities in the performance of Bach.  That's the bottom line, IMO.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 12:26:43 PM
What seems to be going on here is as follows.

You say something like

Quote from: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 08:11:26 AM


It is considered among all musicians that . . .


I then produce counter-examples.

And then you respond with

Quote from: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 11:42:56 AM


I don't like  . . .




That's called a non-sequitur.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 12:49:38 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 12:26:43 PM
What seems to be going on here is as follows.

You say something like

I then produce counter-examples.

And then you respond with


That's called a non-sequitur.

You produced examples which have nothing to do with orchestral section playing, or choral ensemble singing, or even 99% of chamber music ensemble playing.  It is normal, and musicians are trained, to play together as a synchronized ensemble.  Not to play disjointed so that their downbeats are not sounded together.

But you produced the example of an Elliott Carter string quartet in which he intentionally wrote it for the players to be independent of each other, often in a different tempo. That is an example I called irrelevant.  Then you brought up Harnoncourt, who I refused to believe did not conduct with all sections playing the same downbeat.

If the Carter example is how you think Bach should be performed, then we are 180 degrees apart. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 01:02:14 PM
NB -- the context is the independence and equality of voices in WTC. The other genre that may be relevant is madrigal singing, just because at least one performer has tried to play multi-voiced baroque keyboard music like multi-voiced madrigals.

Quote from: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 12:49:38 PM
Then you brought up Harnoncourt, who I refused to believe did not conduct with all sections playing the same downbeat.


I'll dig out some of the things Harnoncourt wrote about this -- in Music as Speech I think, and maybe also in the interviews in the biography. His aim, basically, was to jolt the listener as much as possible. He didn't always put this idea into action,  but in some CMV recordings he did.


Quote from: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 12:49:38 PM
musicians are trained, to play together as a synchronized ensemble.  Not to play disjointed so that their downbeats are not sounded together.



Yes, this is probably true, though I suspect the position is rather more nuanced in enlightened conservatories with a specialisation in baroque and early music.





Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 01:15:48 PM
I am absolutely confident that nowhere does Harnoncourt write that musicians in his ensemble do not share the same downbeat.  IIRC, Rubsam's essay in his lute harpsichord recordings he talks about Bach's autograph manuscript where the lines do not line up perfectly.  He then used that as an indication to play the music as it looked on the page, i.e. the downbeats not lining up.  I frankly think that is an absurd approach, and in my opinion his performance of the Bach works sound disjointed and shaky with little forward propulsion.  IOW, the opposite of how Bach is normally performed.

Other than a composer such as Elliott Carter purposely conceiving of a work where the players are so independent that they do not share the same tempo or meter or downbeat - all performances are based on the idea of ensemble, i.e. the musicians are playing the same tempo and establishing the same downbeat together.  It is a defect if they do not play the downbeat simultaneously.

I have forgotten why this thread has diverged from discussing recordings of the WTC and has instead gone off into the weeds of what constitutes the accepted idea of ensemble playing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 01:22:16 PM
Quote from: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 01:15:48 PM
I am absolutely confident that nowhere does Harnoncourt write that musicians in his ensemble do not share the same downbeat.  IIRC, Rubsam's essay in his lute harpsichord recordings he talks about Bach's autograph manuscript where the lines do not line up perfectly.  He then used that as an indication to play the music as it looked on the page, i.e. the downbeats not lining up.  I frankly think that is an absurd approach, and in my opinion his performance of the Bach works sound disjointed and shaky with little forward propulsion.  IOW, the opposite of how Bach is normally performed.

Other than a composer such as Elliott Carter purposely conceiving of a work where the players are so independent that they do not share the same tempo or meter or downbeat - all performances are based on the idea of ensemble, i.e. the musicians are playing the same tempo and establishing the same downbeat together.  It is a defect if they do not play the downbeat simultaneously.

I have forgotten why this thread has diverged from discussing recordings of the WTC and has instead gone off into the weeds of what constitutes the accepted idea of ensemble playing.

Ah, I see the problem! Be careful not to conflate

Quote from: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 06:09:13 AM
it is considered a defect if they are not singing in a synchronized manner, i.e. as one voice.

and


Quote from: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 01:15:48 PM
I am absolutely confident that nowhere does Harnoncourt write that musicians in his ensemble do not share the same downbeat. 


There's what they do between downbeats to think about!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 01:32:39 PM
Well, there are different styles of vocal ensemble singing: 1) choral singing where the voices are completely unified and 2) madrigal style singing where the voices do have more independence - because that is how the music is written.  But they are not so independent of each other that the sense of ensemble breaks down.

Examples of #1 would include any large choral work such as the Beethoven 9th or the Verdi Requiem, but any choral work with several singers on each part.

Examples of #2 would be 1VPP or 2VPP performances, singing polyphony where each voice sings an independent melody.

But again, they are not so independent of each other so as to destroy the sense of ensemble.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2020, 01:35:56 PM
Quote from: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 01:32:39 PM
Well, there are different styles of vocal ensemble singing: 1) choral singing where the voices are completely unified and 2) madrigal style singing where the voices do have more independence - because that is how the music is written.  But they are not so independent of each other that the sense of ensemble breaks down.

Examples of #1 would include any large choral work such as the Beethoven 9th or the Verdi Requiem, but any choral work with several singers on each part.

Examples of #2 would be 1VPP or 2VPP performances, singing polyphony where each voice sings an independent melody.

But again, they are not so independent of each other so as to destroy the sense of ensemble.

Tomorrow!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 11, 2020, 11:39:45 PM
Quote from: San Antone on January 11, 2020, 06:09:13 AM
I understand your analogy, but in any ensemble it is considered a defect if they are not singing in a synchronized manner, i.e. as one voice.  Orchestras spend more rehearsal time on this aspect than any other, each section among themselves (string sections bowing in exactly the same) and then each section with the others.  It is even more important for vocal ensembles.

For me, these works for keyboard are contrapuntal in which the subject and answer move from voice to voice and that primary voice ought to be brought out.  But it bothers me when the lines themselves are not unified into a multifaceted whole.  That is more like a jazz group than your idea.
Your problem is just with the metaphor then, if I'm understanding. It seems like you agree that the WAY to do Bach is infused with subjectivity, even while there are objective claims being made about what the music says.
I wonder if anything changed in CPE Bach's lifetime. Obviously things changed a lot in Mendelssohn's day. For CPE, I wonder if he thought or reacted much to the way Bach might have been played in those years - although I guess Bach Pere wasn't so popular then. Did Mendelssohn and his ilk pay much attention to any idea of how the music was played in Bach's time? Like, after the harpsichord died, did they just make assumptions? Or did they just read the music and play it the way piano's were played a la mode. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 12, 2020, 12:16:50 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 10, 2020, 07:59:44 PM
Yes, I've been listening a bit to Tekahisa and to Schiff in fact, in WTC 2.  I feel very positive about Tekahisa.

Tekahisa makes everything sound like a natural and spontaneous outpouring. There's a sense of liberty and of fantasy. I especially appreciate the finesse of his ornamentation. He does not hide Bach's musical clashes, caesuras and ruptures - these are the things which make the music come alive.

Tekahisa does something very much to my taste - he uses rubato to vary the pulse of each piece, without losing a sense of fluidity and indeed lyricism when required.

I like Tekahisa's piano, partly because of the contrast of the timbres in the different registers.


I don't think it's left field - it seems very much inspired by the sense of rubato and the freedom of performers such as Bob Van Asperen  and Samuil Feinberg. He doesn't have anything to envy these other musicians for, IMO.
Someone should review him at Musicweb or somewhere. I guess this area of music doesn't get a lot of press; even someone like Rubsam doesn't get much attention for his Lute-harpsichord recordings. I think it's so fresh sounding and creative and a lot of fun. Most music coming from Japan isn't very interesting so maybe he's kind of buried. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 12, 2020, 03:33:54 AM
Quote from: milk on January 11, 2020, 11:39:45 PM
Your problem is just with the metaphor then, if I'm understanding. It seems like you agree that the WAY to do Bach is infused with subjectivity, even while there are objective claims being made about what the music says.
I wonder if anything changed in CPE Bach's lifetime. Obviously things changed a lot in Mendelssohn's day. For CPE, I wonder if he thought or reacted much to the way Bach might have been played in those years - although I guess Bach Pere wasn't so popular then. Did Mendelssohn and his ilk pay much attention to any idea of how the music was played in Bach's time? Like, after the harpsichord died, did they just make assumptions? Or did they just read the music and play it the way piano's were played a la mode.

Yes, we got off in the tall grass with the metaphor.  My problem is with performances like Rubsam's lute-harpsichord recordings where he staggers all the lines and the whole thing sounds  jumbled, sloppy and squishy. 

Every composer is approached subjectively by each performer, so Bach is no different in this regard.  The only real difference is that with all contrapuntal music, the music is linear with the harmonies produced by the convergence of multiple lines.  Bach's genius was in his ability to create beautiful natural sounding melodies, each with their own arc and resolution but at the same time fulfilling their contrapuntal function.

These lines must be played with simultaneous convergences that are aligned and the harmonies are produced rhythmically.   The forward energy then grows both as a result of the various melodies developing and as the harmonic rhythm progresses.  These melodies ought to be brought out by the performer, but not in a way that jumbles the rhythm to the point of the harmonic forward propulsion breaking down.

This is why I prefer the piano since these lines can be brought out dynamically, leaving the rhythmic convergences aligned, and the performer can manipulate the harmonic rhythm with more effectiveness.  Whereas on the harpsichord, the main way to distinguish lines is by agogic staggering (or trills and other decorative elements) which if done to the extreme (as with Rubsam) destroys the forward motion of the harmonic progression, leaving a jumbled mess of weaving lines that appear to have no energy.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 12, 2020, 01:53:01 PM
Quote from: San Antone on January 12, 2020, 03:33:54 AM
Yes, we got off in the tall grass with the metaphor.  My problem is with performances like Rubsam's lute-harpsichord recordings where he staggers all the lines and the whole thing sounds  jumbled, sloppy and squishy. 

Every composer is approached subjectively by each performer, so Bach is no different in this regard.  The only real difference is that with all contrapuntal music, the music is linear with the harmonies produced by the convergence of multiple lines.  Bach's genius was in his ability to create beautiful natural sounding melodies, each with their own arc and resolution but at the same time fulfilling their contrapuntal function.

These lines must be played with simultaneous convergences that are aligned and the harmonies are produced rhythmically.   The forward energy then grows both as a result of the various melodies developing and as the harmonic rhythm progresses.  These melodies ought to be brought out by the performer, but not in a way that jumbles the rhythm to the point of the harmonic forward propulsion breaking down.

This is why I prefer the piano since these lines can be brought out dynamically, leaving the rhythmic convergences aligned, and the performer can manipulate the harmonic rhythm with more effectiveness.  Whereas on the harpsichord, the main way to distinguish lines is by agogic staggering (or trills and other decorative elements) which if done to the extreme (as with Rubsam) destroys the forward motion of the harmonic progression, leaving a jumbled mess of weaving lines that appear to have no energy.
yes, I see that. Honestly, I have a hard time with Rubsam sometimes. He's also darn slow. But I'm really sensitive to dynamics. Too much of that annoys me and I like many performances that rely on agogics if they pull off the magic trick of making it all seem coherent and natural. I think of Bradley Brookshire's French suites. I'm not sure that way of playing would be thought of or successful on the piano.  But I like both HIP and non-HIP Bach. Is there any other composer who whose music is open to so many paths?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Florestan on January 12, 2020, 01:58:14 PM
Quote from: milk on January 12, 2020, 01:53:01 PM
I like both HIP and non-HIP Bach. Is there any other composer whose music is open to so many paths?

Plenty of them, actually. That's exactly what makes a composer great.

OTOMH, Mozart, Schubert, Chopin. Incidentally my top 3 composers.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Florestan on January 12, 2020, 02:10:06 PM
Quote from: milk on January 11, 2020, 11:39:45 PM
Did Mendelssohn and his ilk pay much attention to any idea of how the music was played in Bach's time?

I think that in Mendelssohn's time they had no idea about, nor any concern for, how the music was played in Bach's time. Nay. they even had no use for any Bach's music except the WTC --- that's why Mendelssohn's revival of Matthaeus-Passion was quite the sensation.

Quote
Like, after the harpsichord died, did they just make assumptions?

After the harpsichord died they just burried the dead and went the way of the living.
Quote

Or did they just read the music and play it the way piano's were played a la mode.

That's very probable how Chopin played Bach, one of his favorite composers (the other one being Mozart).

This post dedicated to Mandryka --- he knows why.  ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 12, 2020, 02:29:55 PM
Quote from: Florestan on January 12, 2020, 01:58:14 PM
Plenty of them, actually. That's exactly what makes a composer great.

OTOMH, Mozart, Schubert, Chopin. Incidentally my top 3 composers.  ;)
I don't hear it as much in these composers. Of course there's a range in all of them or they wouldn't be good composers and innovators. I do like Mozart on fortepiano and piano, for example. They all can be done with period instruments but somehow Bach seems much more open to me, much wider. But I don't know enough about music to say. Is it Bach himself that seems more abstract and encompassing to me? Is it something about baroque (I don't think so). To me it seems like Bach can be placed in more contexts and still work. But I don't know if there's anything objective about that. Mozart and Beethoven obviously reference Bach and you can hear it in the music and they have the advantage of coming after. But they don't really sound baroque. But Bach can be made to sound romantic or modern. Maybe this is just nonsense to people who know more about music.   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Florestan on January 12, 2020, 02:40:53 PM
Quote from: milk on January 12, 2020, 02:29:55 PM
Mozart and Beethoven obviously reference Bach and you can hear it in the music and they have the advantage of coming after. But they don't really sound baroque. But Bach can be made to sound romantic or modern.

Oh, now I get your point. But isn't this very point going against your philosophy, namely that Bach should not be made to sound romantic or modern? And yet again, if this is so, then why the need to ask whether "Is there any other composer who whose music is open to so many paths?"
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 12, 2020, 10:45:38 PM
Quote from: Florestan on January 12, 2020, 02:40:53 PM
Oh, now I get your point. But isn't this very point going against your philosophy, namely that Bach should not be made to sound romantic or modern? And yet again, if this is so, then why the need to ask whether "Is there any other composer who whose music is open to so many paths?"
no, I generally like it all. Any way is OK with me if it has that certain something. Certain things bother me, like when pianists play with dynamics too much.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 13, 2020, 12:49:19 AM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1E9aIhqqNnQ/Xfmj4CB3-gI/AAAAAAAAUjk/R-eOqnEG1CoBuQGP02ZZKk3mVehtTxcGQCNcBGAsYHQ/s400/cover.jpg)

He was a student of Uittenbosch and Leonhardt and I must say, it shows in the thoughtful, fluid interpretations. Very nicely recorded harpsichord with a decent low response. The tuning sounds interesting to me. He has a knack of building tension to make the music sound sexy, orgasmic - the C sharp minor prelude in Bk 2, for example.

I haven't heard Bk 1. I don't have the booklet.

He's released a Mozart CD with Pascaille too, a preliminary dip in makes me think that it's recognisably from the same mindset as this WTC.


Over the past two or three  years there have been many new WTC2s with things to say - this, Céline Frisch, Wolfgang Rübsam, Frederick Haas . . . I'm sure I'm forgetting one.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2020, 01:11:50 AM

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/08YcSupzCL1PgF6_Eqw_escWkRYGKzCibBynA4CDE6rjNLobz_eAeFArsvH4Vh06APcyO8wN=w300)

Opinions appreciated on Rübsam's 879, the e minor of Bk 2.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 14, 2020, 05:43:47 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 14, 2020, 01:11:50 AM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/08YcSupzCL1PgF6_Eqw_escWkRYGKzCibBynA4CDE6rjNLobz_eAeFArsvH4Vh06APcyO8wN=w300)

Opinions appreciated on Rübsam's 879, the e minor of Bk 2.

I certainly can't listen to all 12 minutes of it, after the first minute of the Prelude I want to turn it off.  I ended up listening to the first 4 minutes.  He takes it so slowly it destroys the forward movement and has no energy.  One of the worst, if not THE worst versions I've heard.

This is an exaggeration, but my overall impression is of someone who is drunk trying to remember/play it.  This prelude reminds me of the two voice inventions, but much longer.

BTW, your cover art is not correct, BWV 879 is found on Volume 4, not 3.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2020, 06:35:47 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 14, 2020, 05:43:47 AM
I certainly can't listen to all 12 minutes of it, after the first minute of the Prelude I want to turn it off.  I ended up listening to the first 4 minutes.  He takes it so slowly it destroys the forward movement and has no energy.  One of the worst, if not THE worst versions I've heard.

This is an exaggeration, but my overall impression is of someone who is drunk trying to remember/play it.  This prelude reminds me of the two voice inventions, but much longer.

BTW, your cover art is not correct, BWV 879 is found on Volume 4, not 3.

Thanks for listening.  I've started to love BWV 879!

It certainly is a challenging performance there from Rubsam.   But there is at least one really special thing about it I think -- the ornaments in the prelude, the trills, they're beautiful!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: j winter on January 15, 2020, 01:01:14 PM
I picked up Rubsam's Book 1 (not Book 2) and his Naxos Goldbergs a few months ago, largely out of curiosity for the instrument.  I need to revisit it, but I recall it as a very interesting first listen -- my impressions were a bit more positive than San Antone's but not wholly dissimilar -- i.e., it came across as too slow and with a very disjointed, stop-and-go quality, though the texture that the lute-harpsichord brings is certainly fascinating.  Perhaps I'll give Book 1 another spin on the ride home tonight....
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on January 15, 2020, 02:22:07 PM
Quote from: Que on December 20, 2017, 01:20:32 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on December 19, 2017, 12:35:41 PM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/08YcSupzCL1PgF6_Eqw_escWkRYGKzCibBynA4CDE6rjNLobz_eAeFArsvH4Vh06APcyO8wN=w300)

I think this is one of the great baroque keyboard  recordings of all time. . Rubsam knows how to apply all the keyboard players' tricks to make the music expressive in a way which functions. I mean the rubato, the almost style brisé effect of the voicing, the arpeggios etc sound a natural part of the music rather than something just plonked into the music. And they make the music very moving.

But where I think he's developed since his piano recordings for Naxos is that he's found a space where he can abandon his feelings, his emotions. There's no sense at all that Rübsam is sounding off  or that he's expressing himself. The performances are both abstract and moving. This is a major, and rare, achievement!

Quote from: milk on December 19, 2017, 11:50:11 PM
How did I miss this? This is a unique recording to be sure. I wonder why this didn't make any year's-best-list. Rubsam comes up with one of the most unique recordings of WTC, both in the chosen instrument and in his style. Counterpunctual clarity may be one aspect of this but there's also this wonderful staggering of the lines, rhythmic variation, and demonstrative use of agogics. It's a wild ride even while employing pretty slow tempos - even slower than Watchorn. Have people not heard this? This should make some noise. I'm just on Book one though.   

Listened to the samples (https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/wtc-book-2).
Sure, anyone who likes a slow, staggering and disjointed approach in which musical lines are deconstructed, will have a field day.  :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 15, 2020, 03:25:06 PM
Quote from: Que on January 15, 2020, 02:22:07 PM
Listened to the samples (https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/wtc-book-2).
Sure, anyone who likes a slow, staggering and disjointed approach in which musical lines are deconstructed, will have a field day.  :)

Q
I don't have the same enthusiasm anymore but maybe I'll regain it. These days, I find him to be a bit of a chore.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on January 15, 2020, 03:59:08 PM
I too had a much more positive reaction the first time I heard Rubsam's lute-harpsichord Bach, I think there is a post where I say it those recordings were the most exciting Bach recordings I had heard in a long time.  But over time Rubsam's playing has become less and less enjoyable to listen to, to the point that today I can hardly stomach it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2020, 06:46:03 AM
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/KEUAAOSw9m9cijgO/s-l300.jpg)


A particularly arresting piano performances of BWV 882 & 883 here, an old piano by the sound of it. Impossible for me to find any information on the instruments he's using in this series of four releases - Bk 1 on harpsichord, Bk 2 on piano I think, or mostly.  The recordings are conceived as concerts with a mix of Bk 1 and Bk 2 music; sometimes one piece is repeated on a different instrument. My feeling is that this is a very well thought through project indeed, such a shame so little information is available about Takehisa's thought processes.

The only source in the UK seems to be Apple.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on February 01, 2020, 01:21:15 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2020, 06:46:03 AM
A particularly arresting piano performances of BWV 882 & 883 here, an old piano by the sound of it. Impossible for me to find any information on the instruments he's using in this series of four releases - Bk 1 on harpsichord, Bk 2 on piano I think, or mostly. 

A harpsichord after Christian Zell and a fortepiano after Gottfried Silbermann:
http://www.kojimarokuon.com/disc/ALCD1187.html

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2020, 01:25:46 PM
Quote from: Que on February 01, 2020, 01:21:15 PM
A harpsichord after Christian Zell and a fortepiano after Gottfried Silbermann:
http://www.kojimarokuon.com/disc/ALCD1187.html

Q

Excellent, thank you Que. I just translated the page and it turns out he is a scholar musician and instrument maker. Just perfect!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on February 02, 2020, 12:20:05 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2020, 01:25:46 PM
Excellent, thank you Que. I just translated the page and it turns out he is a scholar musician and instrument maker. Just perfect!
It's very hard to make a living in Japan playing the harpsichord but perhaps he supplies instruments too. I'm interested in someone who flies so under the radar.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 02, 2020, 01:00:46 AM
Quote from: milk on February 02, 2020, 12:20:05 AM
It's very hard to make a living in Japan playing the harpsichord but perhaps he supplies instruments too. I'm interested in someone who flies so under the radar.

It's very hard to make a living anywhere playing harpsichord.

I want to write to him and ask about the Toccata in the 6th partita, but impossible to find an email address. He has a put together a little ensemble too, they've recorded a disc with Bach concertos. I'm not so sure that he's so under the radar in Japan - like the early music group Anthonello.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on February 02, 2020, 01:05:52 AM
Did you check his website?

http://www.genzoh.jp/en/index.html
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 02, 2020, 01:12:02 AM
You're being very good at finding things for me. I tried and came up with nothing, it looks like you found it straight away. Thanks.


Now, let's see if I can find out about that Toccata in Partita 6.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on February 02, 2020, 03:20:30 AM
Quote from: Que on February 02, 2020, 01:05:52 AM
Did you check his website?

http://www.genzoh.jp/en/index.html
Yes, I've looked at this but it seems that it hasn't been updated for half-a-dozen years or so. His youtube page has pretty new live performances though. I find something about him curious and most Japanese performers need to go abroad to get to the next level. Takehisa has a real vision but, unlike every one else on the scene, it doesn't look like he ever studied with a prominent teacher.   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on March 01, 2020, 12:15:50 AM
Has anyone heard Steven Devine's WTC? Michel Kiener?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on March 01, 2020, 12:26:26 AM
Quote from: milk on March 01, 2020, 12:15:50 AM
Michel Kiener?

Good WTC2 - interpretation, sound, instrument. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on March 01, 2020, 12:59:48 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 01, 2020, 12:26:26 AM
Good WTC2 - interpretation, sound, instrument.
Do you know George Lepauw's new WTC?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on March 01, 2020, 01:12:41 AM
Quote from: milk on March 01, 2020, 12:59:48 AM
Do you know George Lepauw's new WTC?

Yes! I thought I made some comments about it when it came out here, but maybe not. It is beyond recommended or unrecommended. One  likes some, is moved by many, is awed by few, is annoyed by others...no matter. The Lepauw WTC "exists" in the way the thoughts of a philosopher exist, whether one agrees with them or not, whether one likes them or not.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on March 01, 2020, 02:40:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 01, 2020, 01:12:41 AM
Yes! I thought I made some comments about it when it came out here, but maybe not. It is beyond recommended or unrecommended. One  likes some, is moved by many, is awed by few, is annoyed by others...no matter. The Lepauw WTC "exists" in the way the thoughts of a philosopher exist, whether one agrees with them or not, whether one likes them or not.
Wow!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on March 02, 2020, 05:44:43 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 01, 2020, 01:12:41 AM
Yes! I thought I made some comments about it when it came out here, but maybe not. It is beyond recommended or unrecommended. One  likes some, is moved by many, is awed by few, is annoyed by others...no matter. The Lepauw WTC "exists" in the way the thoughts of a philosopher exist, whether one agrees with them or not, whether one likes them or not.
I'm listening to these today. There should be more discussion here of this. This is a young pianist? That would be surprising. There's a lot to love here, whatever else there is. I don't always his use of dynamics; but I'd use words like captivating.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on March 03, 2020, 06:56:41 AM
Quote from: milk on March 02, 2020, 05:44:43 AM
I'm listening to these today. There should be more discussion here of this. This is a young pianist? That would be surprising. There's a lot to love here, whatever else there is. I don't always his use of dynamics; but I'd use words like captivating.

You can read all about him here

http://www.georgelepauw.com/
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: 71 dB on July 15, 2020, 03:14:42 AM
I have been watching Youtube videos about Fugue to learn how to write them and one video I saw was about how economically Bach uses the material in the Fugue of D Major Prelude and Fugue, BWV 874 of WTC II. I became a bit obsessed of this fugue.  ;D The only recording I have is Jenő Jandó on Naxos played on piano. I think this Fugue works brilliantly on piano. I was curious to how to sounds like on harpsichord and sampled some performers on Spotify. Keith Jarrett and Kenneth Gilbert play it quite fast with similar tempi and the comforting feel of piano playing is completely missing while Wanda Landowska plays it really slow greating an almost religious/spiritual feel. However, for me piano is the optimal instrument for this Fugue for the comforting feeling it creates...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on July 15, 2020, 07:42:16 PM
You may find some info here:

https://musica-mundana.jimdosite.com/

Also, if you send an email, somebody will answer your question. I think he is blind.

Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2020, 06:46:03 AM
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/KEUAAOSw9m9cijgO/s-l300.jpg)


A particularly arresting piano performances of BWV 882 & 883 here, an old piano by the sound of it. Impossible for me to find any information on the instruments he's using in this series of four releases - Bk 1 on harpsichord, Bk 2 on piano I think, or mostly.  The recordings are conceived as concerts with a mix of Bk 1 and Bk 2 music; sometimes one piece is repeated on a different instrument. My feeling is that this is a very well thought through project indeed, such a shame so little information is available about Takehisa's thought processes.

The only source in the UK seems to be Apple.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 16, 2020, 04:27:13 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on July 15, 2020, 07:42:16 PM
You may find some info here:

https://musica-mundana.jimdosite.com/

Also, if you send an email, somebody will answer your question. I think he is blind.
I love this series although I think it's unfinished.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on August 30, 2020, 04:57:26 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODY2ODM0My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1Njg2Mjg2Mjh9)

I'd never heard of her but these are worthwhile for a listen. I don't think she overdoes anything and you can hear a deep love of Bach. There are lots of little inventive details in her playing and ornamentation.

And here's something something interesting from the description of her life:
"This is not at all what I wrote, but play it like this. Do play it this way!" exclaimed Dmitri Shostakovich after Yudina performed the freshly written 24 Preludes and Fugues.


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: vers la flamme on August 31, 2020, 02:46:13 AM
^Yudina's Goldberg Variations is also excellent. She's my girlfriend's favorite pianist and she put me onto a lot of her stuff when I was first getting into Bach and classical music as a whole a few years ago.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on August 31, 2020, 03:57:23 AM
I was just disappointed that the transfers in that new set in milk's image were no improvement on what was previously available.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on August 31, 2020, 05:59:57 AM
Not to be a downer but I listened to more of her today and have some questions about what she's doing. It's comparable to Feinberg in a way - and that's a good thing. On the other hand, she's fast and furious and often makes mistakes. She makes wild leaps in tempo and the sound quality doesn't help when things get really slurred. But, if y'all think there's brilliance, I'll listen more. Maybe I should look for her Goldbergs.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on August 31, 2020, 08:09:42 AM
Quote from: milk on August 31, 2020, 05:59:57 AM
Not to be a downer but I listened to more of her today and have some questions about what she's doing. It's comparable to Feinberg in a way - and that's a good thing. On the other hand, she's fast and furious and often makes mistakes. She makes wild leaps in tempo and the sound quality doesn't help when things get really slurred. But, if y'all think there's brilliance, I'll listen more. Maybe I should look for her Goldbergs.

All that generation are when it comes to Bach -- Yudina, Feinberg, Gilels, Edwin Fischer, Gieseking, Weissenberg, even Richter most of the time.  It's as if they think that to produce a harpsichord effect they have to play the piano fast and with zero nuance or rubato. Probably they never had heard a real baroque harpsichord played by someone who can drive it properly.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: André on August 31, 2020, 08:46:00 AM
Last week with a group of friends we compared approaches to various preludes/fugues by Fischer, Gieseking, Tureck (1955), Gould, Richter, Horszowski, Ashkenazy, Barenboim, De Maria, Poblocka (listed in chronological order of recording dates). We added Landowska (!) for good measure.

The range of approaches was of course very wide, and generally we found the more recent accounts in better accord with our tastes. We also found that sound issues did make a difference in our appreciation - more so than I would have imagined. 

I wouldn't venture to put them in order of preference, but I personally didn't care much for the first three, largely on account of the sound limitations. The most characterful and convincing accounts for me were by De Maria, Horszowski and Gould. Honourable mention to Richter and Barenboim, both of whom I found uneven - sometimes very engrossing, sometimes misjudged (mostly on account of tempi).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on August 31, 2020, 09:18:51 AM
Tureck is the exception that proves the rule.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on August 31, 2020, 04:57:21 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 31, 2020, 09:18:51 AM
Tureck is the exception that proves the rule.
I wonder if Tureck is a reaction to the others?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 31, 2020, 07:16:24 PM
Mie Miki, Well-Tempered Accordion.
A review is below.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/Aug/Bach_accordion_BIS2217.htm
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on August 31, 2020, 07:24:41 PM
Quote from: milk on August 31, 2020, 04:57:21 PM
I wonder if Tureck is a reaction to the others?

She claimed to have a direct communication channel with Bach's ghost. Landowska also is an exception, she's a pianist really, as far as I know she wasn't interested in harpsichord technique and she plays the playel as if it's a piano - piano touch. Arrau, who recorded the Goldberg Variations in 1945 and who knew and respected Landowska, is almost as fast and unnuanced as Edwin Fischer etc, he plays Bach as if he's playing Beethoven. I quite like Arrau's Bach.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on August 31, 2020, 07:38:04 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 31, 2020, 07:24:41 PM
She claimed to have a direct communication channel with Bach's ghost. Landowska also is an exception, she's a pianist really, as far as I know she wasn't interested in harpsichord technique and she plays the playel as if it's a piano - piano touch. Arrau, who recorded the Goldberg Variations in 1945 and who knew and respected Landowska, is almost as fast and unnuanced as Edwin Fischer etc, he plays Bach as if he's playing Beethoven. I quite like Arrau's Bach.
I haven't listened to Tureck for a while but I used to think she was a kind of outlier. Isn't it true she breaks away from the tradition of those you mentioned and made the case for Bach's universe? I'm not saying she succeeded because I have a feeling there's a bit too much ego in her playing maybe. I'm just supposing; I have to listen to her again.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on September 01, 2020, 07:45:14 AM
Downright distorted on the 2 CDs I own, recordings dating from the early '80s on an anonymous label with 'TROY' serial numbers (self-publied?).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 01, 2020, 07:53:20 AM
Quote from: Old San Antone on September 01, 2020, 04:15:57 AM
Just the opposite.  Since I avoid reading about recordings and artists, I was unaware of the stuff you guys are quoting.  I just listen to the recordings and to me, she is dedicated to presenting Bach as transparently as possible.  She might be thought of as the anti-Gould.  The only distraction for me is the recorded sound which is a dry studio acoustic.  But the playing is revelatory, IMO.
She always came out near the top in those comparisons by Don Satz. Did I get his name right? Is he still active here BTW? Maybe I'll give her a listen. I just remember her being unique. She certainly isn't like the generation before her that was being discussed.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 01, 2020, 12:32:52 PM
Quote from: milk on September 01, 2020, 07:53:20 AM
She always came out near the top in those comparisons by Don Satz. Did I get his name right? Is he still active here BTW? Maybe I'll give her a listen. I just remember her being unique. She certainly isn't like the generation before her that was being discussed.

But she became like them. I think the later recordings are more mainstream than the earlier ones, and less special. Things like the BBC WTC is not as magic for me as the DG one, the early partitas recordings capture my imagination more than the later ones. I saw her once, do the Goldbergs.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 02, 2020, 12:04:55 AM
(https://hitasura-productions.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/WTKdigipak.jpg)
I do find this to be a very attractive recording. What an exceptionally beautiful sounding instrument! I like what Haas does, will he be recording BK 1, I wonder.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on September 03, 2020, 11:53:14 AM
Quote from: André on August 31, 2020, 08:46:00 AM
Last week with a group of friends we compared approaches to various preludes/fugues by Fischer, Gieseking, Tureck (1955), Gould, Richter, Horszowski, Ashkenazy, Barenboim, De Maria, Poblocka (listed in chronological order of recording dates). We added Landowska (!) for good measure.

The range of approaches was of course very wide, and generally we found the more recent accounts in better accord with our tastes. We also found that sound issues did make a difference in our appreciation - more so than I would have imagined. 

I wouldn't venture to put them in order of preference, but I personally didn't care much for the first three, largely on account of the sound limitations. The most characterful and convincing accounts for me were by De Maria, Horszowski and Gould. Honourable mention to Richter and Barenboim, both of whom I found uneven - sometimes very engrossing, sometimes misjudged (mostly on account of tempi).

Your group might have liked Koroliov if you do that shootout again. It's among the most consistently even across both books that I've ever heard on piano and in the best sound quality too. I wish his performance of AoF was this good. The modern trend seems to be recording any JS Bach on piano in a reverberant acoustic but Tacet do a fine job of not doing that. Andrei Vieru is another really consistent one in terms of tempo choices but it is a bit reverberant.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 03, 2020, 03:35:10 PM
Quote from: hvbias on September 03, 2020, 11:53:14 AM
Your group might have liked Koroliov if you do that shootout again. It's among the most consistently even across both books that I've ever heard on piano and in the best sound quality too. I wish his performance of AoF was this good. The modern trend seems to be recording any JS Bach on piano in a reverberant acoustic but Tacet do a fine job of not doing that. Andrei Vieru is another really consistent one in terms of tempo choices but it is a bit reverberant.
What's the point of consistency?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 04, 2020, 11:42:13 PM
I'm enjoying George Lepauw, mostly. The rubato is extreme sometimes and he does a lot with articulation and ornamentation. I guess it depends whether you can go with the emotional moments or if they strike you as false. Something like that.
It doesn't seem like he's sparked much conversation here yet.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: vers la flamme on September 05, 2020, 04:51:22 AM
I just got Gould, the most recent 4CD issue. I'll listen to some of it later today.

What is a good (and cheap!) set on a period harpsichord? I've been looking at Bob van Asperen. Any good?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: amw on September 05, 2020, 04:54:23 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 05, 2020, 04:51:22 AM
What is a good (and cheap!) set on a period harpsichord? I've been looking at Bob van Asperen. Any good?
Yes, one of the best. Céline Frisch would be my other choice (but probably not as cheap)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 05, 2020, 05:57:13 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 05, 2020, 04:51:22 AM
I just got Gould, the most recent 4CD issue. I'll listen to some of it later today.

What is a good (and cheap!) set on a period harpsichord? I've been looking at Bob van Asperen. Any good?

Pieter Jan Belder or Colin Booth, both relatively inexpensive.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 05, 2020, 06:00:09 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 05, 2020, 04:51:22 AM
I just got Gould, the most recent 4CD issue. I'll listen to some of it later today.

What is a good (and cheap!) set on a period harpsichord? I've been looking at Bob van Asperen. Any good?
Is Suzuki expensive? There's Glenn Wilson too.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 05, 2020, 06:10:19 AM
Quote from: milk on September 05, 2020, 06:00:09 AM
Is Suzuki expensive? There's Glenn Wilson too.

Suzuki is rather expensive (Presto sometimes have BIS sales making it a bit cheaper).
As far as I know Wilson's WTC is OOP.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 05, 2020, 07:08:55 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 05, 2020, 06:10:19 AM
Suzuki is rather expensive (Presto sometimes have BIS sales making it a bit cheaper).
As far as I know Wilson's WTC is OOP.
Parmentier is good.
Does anyone know anything about Michel Kiener?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 05, 2020, 08:07:26 AM
Quote from: milk on September 05, 2020, 07:08:55 AM
Parmentier is good.
Does anyone know anything about Michel Kiener?

As far as I know, Parmentier recorded only book I. However a nice and opulent recording.

Michel Kiener isn't my cup of tea. He arguably displays some good ideas with well judged agogic rubato, but generally he is too conservative to my taste, and his instrument isn't that period sounding, even if it may be.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 05, 2020, 09:39:19 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 05, 2020, 08:07:26 AM
As far as I know, Parmentier recorded only book I. However a nice and opulent recording.

Michel Kiener isn't my cup of tea. He arguably displays some good ideas with well judged agogic rubato, but generally he is too conservative to my taste, and his instrument isn't that period sounding, even if it may be.

After a Blanchet, a Ruckers with a ravalement I think. Maybe the sobriety of the playing paired with the kaleidoscopic instrument just works to make something memorable. I find what Kiener does very moving.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: vers la flamme on September 05, 2020, 02:54:32 PM
Quote from: milk on September 05, 2020, 06:00:09 AM
Is Suzuki expensive? There's Glenn Wilson too.

Yes, very—about $60 for the whole thing, checking now.

@ Premont, Belder sounds great—thanks!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 05, 2020, 03:28:50 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 05, 2020, 02:54:32 PM

@ Premont, Belder sounds great—thanks!

If you want one more (other than Belder) the link to Colin Booth's home page is here:

https://www.colinbooth.co.uk/recordings.html
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 05, 2020, 03:42:55 PM
I haven't listened to Robert Levin for a long time but I was absolutely in love with it years ago. My memory now is that while he uses a variety of wonderful and interesting period instruments, he plays with a steady pulse. I have to go back and see. I hesitate to recommend it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 06, 2020, 12:09:03 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 05, 2020, 04:51:22 AM

I've been looking at Bob van Asperen. Any good?

It is very good indeed. Remember Asperen's Pokemon , , ,
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Iota on September 06, 2020, 10:18:18 AM
I'm about half-way through Book I of Dominique Merlet's modern piano recording on the Le Palais des Dégustateurs label, and apart from a quick (and rather effective) C major Prelude, and occasional octaves in the final bass entry of fugues, this is about as strait-laced and dispassionate a reading as I've heard.
It's okay, the counterpoint is commendably clear and Bach's so receptive to different approaches, but am waiting to see if I warm to it or not, as I currently have about one and a half feet in the unpersuaded camp.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: vers la flamme on September 06, 2020, 12:21:12 PM
I just learned that Wilhelm Kempff recorded both books. Anyone heard it? Thoughts?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 06, 2020, 01:15:33 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 06, 2020, 12:21:12 PM
I just learned that Wilhelm Kempff recorded both books. Anyone heard it? Thoughts?

He only recorded part of both books. My description of his playing would be "sweet".
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 06, 2020, 09:26:36 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 06, 2020, 12:09:03 AM
It is very good indeed. Remember Asperen's Pokemon , , ,
What do you think of Levin? I think what's great about Levin is the atmosphere he created. He's often straightforward in his delivery but it doesn't come off sounding strict or unemotional. He makes great choices and use of instruments. Sometimes he's poignant - especially on the fortepiano and organ. The clavichord work is great too even though, as I said, he doesn't play around with rubato very much. It's more about color.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 06, 2020, 10:24:02 PM
Quote from: milk on September 06, 2020, 09:26:36 PM
What do you think of Levin? I think what's great about Levin is the atmosphere he created. He's often straightforward in his delivery but it doesn't come off sounding strict or unemotional. He makes great choices and use of instruments. Sometimes he's poignant - especially on the fortepiano and organ. The clavichord work is great too even though, as I said, he doesn't play around with rubato very much. It's more about color.

Never heard it, I'll try to listen soon.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on September 06, 2020, 10:29:17 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 05, 2020, 05:57:13 AM
Pieter Jan Belder or Colin Booth, both relatively inexpensive.

I found Belder, unexpectedly, quite dissapointing. Would be my dud of 2019...

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 06, 2020, 11:42:30 PM
Quote from: Que on September 06, 2020, 10:29:17 PM
I found Belder, unexpectedly, quite dissapointing. Would be my dud of 2019...

Q
What don't you like about it?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 07, 2020, 12:26:07 AM
Quote from: Que on September 06, 2020, 10:29:17 PM
I found Belder, unexpectedly, quite dissapointing. Would be my dud of 2019...

Q

I enjoy his noble restraint and subtle expression.

Some also find his Scarlatti dull, I find it well balanced and often poetic.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 07, 2020, 06:25:25 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 06, 2020, 12:09:03 AM
It is very good indeed. Remember Asperen's Pokemon , , ,
Van Asperen and Wilson are startlingly good.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on September 07, 2020, 07:53:05 AM
Quote from: milk on September 07, 2020, 06:25:25 AM
Van Asperen and Wilson are startlingly good.

Van Asperen should record the WTC again. Like his teacher Gustav Leonhardt, his current late recordings are best.
His Virgin recordings are too mechanical for my taste. This is not representative of his playing today.

Glen Wilson has it all IMO: idiomatic, straight forward though imaginative and touching when need be. Still the Golden Standard.

Quote from: milk on September 06, 2020, 11:42:30 PM
What don't you like about it?

With Belder, I guess the biggest dissapointment is what could have been, but didn't materialise.
I like his approach to Bach, but the taste of the pudding is in the eating and in this case the execution falls short of expectations. His WTC is in a nutshell: uneven. There are wonderfull movements followed by ones that falter. The whole thing sounds insufficiently thought through and underrehearsed. Book II is overall notably more succesfull than Book I.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 07, 2020, 09:55:04 AM
Quote from: Que on September 07, 2020, 07:53:05 AM
mechanical


I hear free rhythms and elastic counterpoint; I hear a singing swinging style; I hear stylish ornaments and rubato; I hear a lovely harpsichord (Zell); I hear the recording which paved the way for later free interpretations like Koopman, Verlet, Hantai, Belder, Egarr.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on September 10, 2020, 05:24:19 AM
Quote from: milk on September 03, 2020, 03:35:10 PM
What's the point of consistency?

I do not mean that all of the preludes and fugues sound the same. I mean the performances from piece to piece are uniformly excellent. I tend to listen to WTC in long stretches so having some that are great and many that aren't is something that turns me off.

On piano Vieru also seems to hit the perfect tempo for nearly each and every piece.

Quote from: Que on September 07, 2020, 07:53:05 AM
Glen Wilson has it all IMO: idiomatic, straight forward though imaginative and touching when need be. Still the Golden Standard.

I agree, also those lesser known composers he has been recording on Naxos is a supremely enjoyable series. Lots of music I haven't heard before but his playing sounds like it fits.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 21, 2020, 12:36:25 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RPo6yfOSL._SX466_.jpg)
I don't think many people here payed attention to these recordings though I do recall reading a bad review of Paul's Bach. It's interesting to know there are these other recordings on the lautenwerk. These are not radical interpretations like Rubsam's. They're definitely more conventional. Yet I think they have something going for them. The instrument was built by Anden Houben, a name I've never see before, and I think it has a more interesting sound than the one Rubsam plays. That's a matter of taste though as Rubsam's has more consistency of tones. Paul's instrument has a booming resonant bottom and a treble thwang to the strings. Anyway, Paul was accused of being boring but I don't think he is. He does take slow tempos and rubato is subtle. I really like the clear expression of the lines of counterpoint. It almost sounds like a bass guitar playing along with a harp.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 22, 2020, 12:08:38 AM
Book 1 Prelude and Fugue in C-sharp minor

Leonhardt transition to the fugue is so dramatic and heart-rending it gave me goose bumps. It's like the whole world comes falling down in that fugue. It's so gripping. He has me hanging on every note.
Demus's is quiet and sorrowful, by comparison. Even with all that pianism available to him, Demus sticks with subdued sorrow over heavy drama.
I've been loving Van Asperen lately. He doesn't achieve the heights Leonhardt does but he's very convincing, very mournful. He takes a slow tempo and there's more human sentiment here over Leonhardt's almost cosmic desolation.
I feel like only a few people in the world are really aware of Genzoh Takehisa. He's just outstanding. I don't think I've seen any reviews or promotion of him anywhere.
In his C-Sharp minor, he takes a little different approach with the prelude. I can't describe it but he also manages a nice dramatic transition into the fugue. I like how creative he is; he always seems to find something novel to accentuate though I'm not sure this is his best moment on a recording that's full of so much insightfulness.
It's interesting how Celine Frisch can do something so totally different with this fugue. She makes it very grand and builds up and up and up to the sky. She just takes you away.
How about Suzuki? He's the most religious - or he's the only one that I know is religious - so I expect some theodicy from him. It's really the fugue that matters, unlike some of the other keys where the prelude is so memorable. I've kind of run out of words at this point but I don't think he disappoints. It's a giant monument, this fugue, and Suzuki also creates some kind of cosmic drama from it.
But Leonhardt and Frisch are the most memorable.
ETA: Schiff is too precious but Ugorskaja is heartbreaking. Lepauw does something radical in the prelude: lots of silence. Lots of space and tenderness. But in the fugue, I'm not sure I like his histrionics.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on September 22, 2020, 05:20:56 AM
Very interesting.  All I hear are the notes.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 22, 2020, 06:00:53 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 22, 2020, 05:20:56 AM
Very interesting.  All I hear are the notes.
If you want clarity - to hear the notes - Rübsam is your man on the lautenwerk.
This fugue doesn't work so well on piano I find. Pianism just messes it up.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on September 23, 2020, 02:08:39 AM
I've got a limited selection from the Rubsam set - just Book II Nos 18-24 - and a few of his other recordings - and yes, very good to have, as an alternate view.

Your previous post prompted me to listen to six recordings of the same piece - Hewitt 2, Ugorskaja, Richter, Lepauw, Suzuki and Gould, in that order.  I do generally prefer listening to piano.  I kinda heard what you did in the case of Lepauw, but otherwise my brain doesn't react to this music with descriptions like 'religious', 'heartbreaking' or 'tender'.  Of that six I liked Gould the best, then Richter.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 23, 2020, 02:42:59 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 23, 2020, 02:08:39 AM
I've got a limited selection from the Rubsam set - just Book II Nos 18-24 - and a few of his other recordings - and yes, very good to have, as an alternate view.

Your previous post prompted me to listen to six recordings of the same piece - Hewitt 2, Ugorskaja, Richter, Lepauw, Suzuki and Gould, in that order.  I do generally prefer listening to piano.  I kinda heard what you did in the case of Lepauw, but otherwise my brain doesn't react to this music with descriptions like 'religious', 'heartbreaking' or 'tender'.  Of that six I liked Gould the best, then Richter.
how do you describe the reasons you like those in particular? Yes I think we've very different tastes. I don't really see why people like Gould so much. Today I listened to Robert Levin play this fugue on the organ. I like that as well.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on September 23, 2020, 03:08:52 AM
They sound relatively plain and undemonstrative to me.  Hewitt too, and she has the advantage over the other two of a marvellous piano and refined recording.  I do enjoy listening to more 'interpretive' performers but I find the more I do so, the more I am drawn back to the straight-ahead approach in this music.
But in Bach's Cello Suites for example I'm much more drawn to extremes - straight-ahead in the Cello Suites is a bit boring, just not quite enough going on.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 23, 2020, 03:01:47 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 25, 2017, 10:22:21 AM
I enjoy both (Kenneth Gilbert and Kenneth Weiss) and would not dare to choose between them.
I haven't listened to Gilbert in a while but I listened to Weiss for the first time yesterday and was really impressed. Also, I wanted to, once again, talk up Robert Levin. He plays the C-Sharp minor fugue on an Organ! It's interesting how he goes from somewhat straightforward performances on harpsichord and clavichord to something different on the organ.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 23, 2020, 03:22:50 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 23, 2020, 03:08:52 AM
straight-ahead in the Cello Suites is a bit boring, just not quite enough going on.

All music is boring when played mechanically. This is one of the reasons why Gould bores me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: André on September 23, 2020, 05:01:52 PM
Gould is anything but mechanical.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 24, 2020, 12:28:17 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 23, 2020, 03:22:50 PM
All music is boring when played mechanically. This is one of the reasons why Gould bores me.
me too. Was Leonhardt the first and most influential figure for the development of a new attitude towards Bach's keyboard music? It doesn't seem like we would have gotten this far without him.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2020, 12:48:57 AM
Leonhardt studied with Eduard Muller in Basel, I've never explored his style but I just found this Frescobaldi organ recording. There's also a Bach concerto, 1048,  where he plays keyboard, Wenzinger at the helm. And some Handel organ concertos.


(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/79/29/3614591532979_600.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 24, 2020, 01:58:18 AM
Quote from: André on September 23, 2020, 05:01:52 PM
Gould is anything but mechanical.

So his playing abounds in expressive rubato?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 24, 2020, 02:14:10 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 24, 2020, 12:48:57 AM
Leonhardt studied with Eduard Muller in Basel, I've never explored his style but I just found this Frescobaldi organ recording. There's also a Bach concerto, 1048,  where he plays keyboard, Wenzinger at the helm. And some Handel organ concertos.


(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/79/29/3614591532979_600.jpg)

Eduard Müller "composed" an improvisatory middle harpsichord movement for the third Brandenburg concerto (BWV 1048) and recorded it three times (with Wenzinger, Sacher and with Hans Reinartz). I think as a composition a very convincing example of neo-Bach - even if played in a stiff and old-fashioned way. And generally I find his playing pedantic old-school, but he must have been a good pedagogue.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 24, 2020, 02:25:29 AM
Quote from: milk on September 24, 2020, 12:28:17 AM
me too. Was Leonhardt the first and most influential figure for the development of a new attitude towards Bach's keyboard music? It doesn't seem like we would have gotten this far without him.

I can't think of any other active musician with a similar influence.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: André on September 24, 2020, 05:50:36 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2020, 01:58:18 AM
So his playing abounds in expressive rubato?

An abundance of expressive rubato is of course an essential ingredient in WTC... ::)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 24, 2020, 06:06:50 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2020, 02:25:29 AM
I can't think of any other active musician with a similar influence.
I guess he's a towering figure. I don't know much about him outside of his music. I imagine that he had a monumental effect on the direction of baroque performance yet even many people who know a lot about classical music probably don't know who he is.
On the other hand, there's Gould who is inescapable in pop culture yet really could not have much effect on musicians I am guessing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 24, 2020, 06:24:45 AM
Quote from: André on September 24, 2020, 05:50:36 AM
An abundance of expressive rubato is of course an essential ingredient in WTC... ::)

Well, at least I prefer an expressive, rhetoric tempo rubato in Bach's keyboard works to Goulds inexpressive tempo "robotto".
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 24, 2020, 06:32:49 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2020, 06:24:45 AM
Well, at least I prefer an expressive, rhetoric tempo rubato in Bach's keyboard works to Goulds inexpressive tempo "robotto".
reminds me of the Coen Brothers' movie "The Man Who Wasn't There."

CARCANOGUES
                         Then you listen to me, for I am
                         expert. That girl, she give me a
                         headache. She cannot play. Nice girl.
                         Very clever hands. Nice girl. Someday,
                         I think, maybe, she make a very good
                         typist.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 24, 2020, 06:34:22 AM
Quote from: milk on September 24, 2020, 06:06:50 AM
I guess he's a towering figure. I don't know much about him outside of his music. I imagine that he had a monumental effect on the direction of baroque performance yet even many people who know a lot about classical music probably don't know who he is.
On the other hand, there's Gould who is inescapable in pop culture yet really could not have much effect on musicians I am guessing.

Leonhardt was a very active teacher, and the fact that he had a lot of pupils was definitely instrumental for his cultural importance.

Whereas I don't know if Gould had pupils at all. Never-the-less there are pianists, who have adopted his style to some degree. Some time ago I listened to Craig Sheppard's AoF, and it is even more Gouldian than Gould's own recording of the work, so far one can compare organ playing with piano playing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on September 24, 2020, 01:26:45 PM
I adore Gould's Bach. If asked why, I would say it's because Gould adored Bach. His Bach is infused with such palpable joy that I find it impossible to listen to it and not feel this joy myself.

I know that others have a very different experience with Gould's Bach and I am entirely OK with that.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: vers la flamme on September 24, 2020, 02:39:18 PM
Quote from: George on September 24, 2020, 01:26:45 PM
I adore Gould's Bach. If asked why, I would say it's because Gould adored Bach. His Bach is infused with such palpable joy that I find it impossible to listen to it and not feel this joy myself.

I know that others have a very different experience with Gould's Bach and I am entirely OK with that.

Couldn't have said it better myself. That being said he is not the only Bachian pianist I want in my life...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: André on September 24, 2020, 04:02:52 PM
« Tempo robotto » is certainly a description many feel appropriate regarding Gould's detached-notes, almost pedal-less playing. To others it elicits a sense of exhilaration (or joy, as George says). But to call it inexpressive or mechanical is wrong IMO. As the last few posts attest, different people react in different ways. For the record, Gould sometimes annoys me no end. But that's my reaction to some of his interpretive choices, not an objective comment on what he actually does.

Gould's Bach is not always to my taste (the toccatas, partitas) but he is revelatory in other works (the WTC - in small doses -, the concertos, the Inventions and Sinfonias). Revelatory because he reveals layers of meaning no one else does. In that sense his Bach is an essential part of the big picture.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 24, 2020, 05:57:44 PM
Quote from: André on September 24, 2020, 04:02:52 PM
« Tempo robotto » is certainly a description many feel appropriate regarding Gould's detached-notes, almost pedal-less playing. To others it elicits a sense of exhilaration (or joy, as George says). But to call it inexpressive or mechanical is wrong IMO. As the last few posts attest, different people react in different ways. For the record, Gould sometimes annoys me no end. But that's my reaction to some of his interpretive choices, not an objective comment on what he actually does.

Gould's Bach is not always to my taste (the toccatas, partitas) but he is revelatory in other works (the WTC - in small doses -, the concertos, the Inventions and Sinfonias). Revelatory because he reveals layers of meaning no one else does. In that sense his Bach is an essential part of the big picture.
I think I'd be less annoyed by Gould if he weren't so synonymous with Bach in popular culture.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on September 24, 2020, 06:02:10 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 24, 2020, 02:39:18 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself. That being said he is not the only Bachian pianist I want in my life...

Agreed! At minimum, I also need Richter, Tipo, Tureck and Feinberg.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 25, 2020, 01:56:04 PM
Quote from: George on September 24, 2020, 01:26:45 PM
I adore Gould's Bach. If asked why, I would say it's because Gould adored Bach. His Bach is infused with such palpable joy that I find it impossible to listen to it and not feel this joy myself.

This is the most charming defence of Gould I ever have seen. :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 25, 2020, 02:02:44 PM
Quote from: André on September 24, 2020, 04:02:52 PM
Revelatory because he reveals layers of meaning no one else does. In that sense his Bach is an essential part of the big picture.

Maybe this needs some elaboration. In my opinion many others reveals the layers of meaning (whatever that is) much better, for instance the newest recording of WTC book I by Trevor Pinnock.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 25, 2020, 03:42:22 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 25, 2020, 02:02:44 PM
Maybe this needs some elaboration. In my opinion many others reveals the layers of meaning (whatever that is) much better, for instance the newest recording of WTC book I by Trevor Pinnock.
my personal feeling is that Gould closes up Bach, like a dead end. Someone like Leonhardt, seemed to have opened up many new possibilities for exploring Bach's keyboard works in new ways. Again, this may be prejudiced by where I encounter Gould. Some of it is not his fault - like the movies that use Gould whenever they want to portray a "deep" character. It's as if the last word was said thirty years ago. But I think it's musically too. Gould doesn't point the way anywhere. Sometimes when I hear Gould I think it's kind of quaint in the sense of someone with a clinical obsession producing some kind of art that is very particular to itself.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 26, 2020, 02:25:23 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 23, 2020, 03:22:50 PM
All music is boring when played mechanically. This is one of the reasons why Gould bores me.

Quote from: André on September 23, 2020, 05:01:52 PM
Gould is anything but mechanical.

I wonder if either of you two gentlemen have the liner notes to Gould's WTC. Apparently he shows his contemptuous attitude to the music in an interview there, saying that the fugues are muzak

QuoteThere is a real Muzak-like significance to the nature of the fugue itself... I would like to think that one could dip in and dip out of and experience of music just as easily as you get into an elevator (with a bit of Mantovani for 35 seconds) to get to the 19th floor

and calling the preludes

Quoteprosaically prefatory

But I haven't got the booklet so I can't check.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 26, 2020, 03:13:16 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 26, 2020, 02:25:23 AM
I wonder if either of you two gentlemen have the liner notes to Gould's WTC. Apparently he shows his contemptuous attitude to the music in an interview there, saying that the fugues are muzak

and calling the preludes

But I haven't got the booklet so I can't check.
I googled and found the same quote in a bunch of different places. I'm not a big fan of Scott Ross either but he had a very negative opinion of Gould. There's a famous quote but I  don't know if he ever explained it in detail. Maybe it's the ego in Gould and his playing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on September 26, 2020, 03:15:21 AM
In the booklet for Book II the main essay by Michael Stegemann (quoting Gould extensively) is entitled On the "Musak" character of the fugue - or - Instructions for "Well-tempered listeners"
One interesting quote - from a letter after finishing recording Book I -
QuoteI have just this week finished Volume I of the W.T.C., thank goodness, and now I have little choice but to proceed onward into Book II.
(it was actually another year before he started recording Book II)

The essay does not imply 'contemptuous' but describes the intimate study of the Fugues that Gould undertook.  I think his point was, as in fact in the quote you chose, that you could dip into a fugue and out again, and still get a valid musical experience - the beginning-middle-end structure is not essential to the music.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 26, 2020, 03:18:41 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 26, 2020, 03:15:21 AM


The essay does not imply 'contemptuous' but describes the intimate study of the Fugues that Gould undertook.  I think his point was, as in fact in the quote you chose, that you could dip into a fugue and out again, and still get a valid musical experience - the beginning-middle-end structure is not essential to the music.

Ah. Like in late Feldman.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 26, 2020, 03:21:49 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 26, 2020, 03:15:21 AM
The essay does not imply 'contemptuous' but describes the intimate study of the Fugues that Gould undertook.  I think his point was, as in fact in the quote you chose, that you could dip into a fugue and out again, and still get a valid musical experience - the beginning-middle-end structure is not essential to the music.

Gould's lack of musical insight reveals itself once more. Every Bach fugue is a musical process, which develops logically from the beginning to the end.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 26, 2020, 05:39:51 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 26, 2020, 03:21:49 AM
Gould's lack of musical insight reveals itself once more. Every Bach fugue is a musical process, which develops logically from the beginning to the end.
One can't "dip into" the fugues without losing the meaning of them. Gould was very focused on the studio it seems and he wanted people to be able to cut up the fugues with scissors and splice them together in their own way. He said something like this. It makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on September 26, 2020, 07:04:14 AM
They don't have a meaning.
A fugue is an elastic set of rules for developing a musical motif.  Bach dreams up a motif, and then he fugues it.  While he's doing the latter his mind is probably elsewhere, reminiscing about that girl in the organ-loft, perhaps.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 26, 2020, 09:13:44 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 26, 2020, 07:04:14 AM
Bach dreams up a motif, and then he fugues it.  While he's doing the latter his mind is probably elsewhere, reminiscing about that girl in the organ-loft, perhaps.

Yes, of course. Stupid of me that I wasn't aware of this.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: vers la flamme on September 26, 2020, 03:21:31 PM
The fact that Gould is still stirring up such heated controversy several decades after his death proves once and for all that he accomplished what he set out to do. Anyway, I'm of the opinion that the things Gould said or wrote have absolutely nothing to do with the things he played.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: André Le Nôtre on September 26, 2020, 07:27:02 PM
In reading the liner notes to his excellent Sweelinck box on Brilliant Classics, I noticed this--Daniele Boccaccio's WTC on organ:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71vOsrq9b8L._SX522_.jpg)

Will head over to spotify to hear a bit of this before buying...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 27, 2020, 01:07:13 AM
Quote from: André Le Nôtre on September 26, 2020, 07:27:02 PM
In reading the liner notes to his excellent Sweelinck box on Brilliant Classics, I noticed this--Daniele Boccaccio's WTC on organ:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71vOsrq9b8L._SX522_.jpg)

Will head over to spotify to hear a bit of this before buying...
I gave this a try tonight. There is something lacking but maybe it's just my mood. In some ways, the organ is an inflexible instrument?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 30, 2020, 07:21:28 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 25, 2020, 02:02:44 PM
Maybe this needs some elaboration. In my opinion many others reveals the layers of meaning (whatever that is) much better, for instance the newest recording of WTC book I by Trevor Pinnock.

Excellent album.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 01, 2020, 03:17:02 PM
I posted somewhere about this but maybe not here. I think this deserves another look. WTC is my favorite music and I've listened to so many recordings over the last few years. I think I wrote this off before but I find it a nice change of pace now. It's a lute-harpsichord and obviously it's not the adventure that Rubsam's recordings are but it's something else. The instrument has a nice quality and Paul, while subtler and less intrepid than Rubsam, has some nice touches.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/810SZvjOscL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 01, 2020, 08:22:50 PM
Quote from: André Le Nôtre on September 26, 2020, 07:27:02 PM
In reading the liner notes to his excellent Sweelinck box on Brilliant Classics, I noticed this--Daniele Boccaccio's WTC on organ:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71vOsrq9b8L._SX522_.jpg)

Will head over to spotify to hear a bit of this before buying...

I only listened to the Book 2, but sounds great!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 01, 2020, 08:24:39 PM
Quote from: milk on October 01, 2020, 03:17:02 PM
I posted somewhere about this but maybe not here. I think this deserves another look. WTC is my favorite music and I've listened to so many recordings over the last few years. I think I wrote this off before but I find it a nice change of pace now. It's a lute-harpsichord and obviously it's not the adventure that Rubsam's recordings are but it's something else. The instrument has a nice quality and Paul, while subtler and less intrepid than Rubsam, has some nice touches.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/810SZvjOscL._SS500_.jpg)

Sounds very interesting. I will soon re-join Amazon unlimited and check this out!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 01, 2020, 08:26:06 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 01, 2020, 08:24:39 PM
Sounds very interesting. I will soon re-join Amazon unlimited and check this out!
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 01, 2020, 08:22:50 PM
I only listened to the Book 2, but sounds great!
I'm going to listen again. I'm not sure how to assess this on organ. I mean beyond if ai find it pleasing. Robert Levin plays some of these pieces on organ in his set BTW, and I quite like it.
Re: John Paul. It's definitely somewhat conservative in approach but I like it. I think he brings out something different with the instrument.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 01, 2020, 08:49:21 PM
Quote from: milk on October 01, 2020, 08:26:06 PM
I'm going to listen again. I'm not sure how to assess this on organ. I mean beyond if ai find it pleasing. Robert Levin plays some of these pieces on organ in his set BTW, and I quite like it.

Robert Costin did that a few years ago, but it was mediocre. This album, I do not totally admire the organ sound, but it is very good and enjoyable overall. As for the execution, I would like analyses from senior members.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 02, 2020, 11:28:18 PM
I've been listening to the G Minor fugue from book II today. It's a great work of art and I'm surprised that I like very much what some pianists have done with this, particularly George Lepauw and Demus (from a live recording some nice person here gave me). Lepauw makes it sound like Schumann but it really works for me. Demus also gives this kind of interesting punctuation which I guess one can only get on the piano. I wasn't as impressed with some of the harpsichordists I tried like Suzuki and Frisch. I think Egarr does something interesting with it by taking it slower and, somehow, softer. Leonhardt is very hard and grand, by contrast. Egarr ends up making something lyrical.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 03, 2020, 12:00:13 AM
Quote from: milk on October 02, 2020, 11:28:18 PM
I've been listening to the G Minor fugue from book II today. It's a great work of art and I'm surprised that I like very much what some pianists have done with this, particularly George Lepauw and Demus (from a live recording some nice person here gave me). Lepauw makes it sound like Schumann but it really works for me. Demus also gives this kind of interesting punctuation which I guess one can only get on the piano. I wasn't as impressed with some of the harpsichordists I tried like Suzuki and Frisch. I think Egarr does something interesting with it by taking it slower and, somehow, softer. Leonhardt is very hard and grand, by contrast. Egarr ends up making something lyrical.

Rübsam of course. Wim Van Beek recorded the prelude on the smaller  Groningen organ and it sounds perfect. For some reason no fugue though.      Yes he did do the fugue - my bad.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 03, 2020, 02:01:03 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 03, 2020, 12:00:13 AM
Rübsam of course. Wim Van Beek recorded the prelude on the smaller  Groningen organ and it sounds perfect. For some reason no fugue though.      Yes he did do the fugue - my bad.
it's hard to find him. I'm streaming on amazon these days.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 03, 2020, 02:07:40 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 03, 2020, 12:00:13 AM
Rübsam of course. Wim Van Beek recorded the prelude on the smaller  Groningen organ and it sounds perfect. For some reason no fugue though.      Yes he did do the fugue - my bad.
I do like what Rubsam has done with this, now that I listen to it. I wish there were a little more bass and character in his instrument. It's a quibble though. He's very touching in this fugue.
I think more people should play the Lautenwerk. But maybe more people should make them too. John Paul plays a really resonant instrument and I like it. It almost created harmonics.
ETA: I can only take so much of Rubsam before I feel like I'm drunk. I do enjoy Lepauw, even though he can get a bit carried away at times.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 04, 2020, 06:36:52 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 02, 2018, 12:30:12 AM
(https://vdegallo.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/0525.jpg)

This WTC 2 was released as long ago as 1986 and reissued in 2013, but I hadn't noticed. It's often muscular and full of vitality.  She's a contrapuntalist, that's to say the complexity of the interrelationships among the voices matters very much in her interpretation, and she doesn't try to seduce is by highlighting one of the melodies in the mix. She's well aware of the variety of affects, and there are some moments of greater tenderness - modulo the overall tough approach. A tough approach, but not an intellectual one. Anne Gallot is never maudlin or mawkish. She's no doubt an interesting musician and I think this is worth catching.
This is a good recommendation. Exuberant!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 05, 2020, 02:51:22 AM
(https://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/thumbnails/691062046329.pt01.jpg) here's something. This recording is a bit strange and I don't quite know what to make of it. Very fast tempos and  - just - out-of-the-ordinary choices. It might just be flying too fast, over my head.
These days I'm finding myself less happy with what I have on piano. Lepauw is an exception. And Demus and Feinberg. A lot of stuff I used to like seems just not adventurous enough.
And...speaking of Bach on the organ:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91Bu+1C6mHL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on October 05, 2020, 03:13:56 AM
Quote from: milk on October 05, 2020, 02:51:22 AM
(https://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/thumbnails/691062046329.pt01.jpg) here's something. This recording is a bit strange and I don't quite know what to make of it. Very fast tempos and  - just - out-of-the-ordinary choices. It might just be flying too fast, over my head.

I purchased this but culled it again. I think he isn't butt surfing over the WTC. Certainly a missed opportunity for something better.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 05, 2020, 03:10:39 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 05, 2020, 03:13:56 AM
I purchased this but culled it again. I think he isn't butt surfing over the WTC. Certainly a missed opportunity for something better.
Head-scratcher for sure although if one goes through it one can pick out some great individual performances. Can someone around here defend it as a whole? I'm interested in the whys and whats.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 05, 2020, 06:05:01 PM
Quote from: milk on October 05, 2020, 02:51:22 AM
(https://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/thumbnails/691062046329.pt01.jpg) here's something. This recording is a bit strange and I don't quite know what to make of it. Very fast tempos and  - just - out-of-the-ordinary choices. It might just be flying too fast, over my head.
These days I'm finding myself less happy with what I have on piano. Lepauw is an exception. And Demus and Feinberg. A lot of stuff I used to like seems just not adventurous enough.
And...speaking of Bach on the organ:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91Bu+1C6mHL._SS500_.jpg)

JB sounds like a Jazz player. Costin sounds mediocre.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 05, 2020, 09:58:49 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 05, 2020, 06:05:01 PM
JB sounds like a Jazz player. Costin sounds mediocre.
I think organ works better when it's interspersed like in Robert Levin.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 06, 2020, 01:35:55 AM
Quote from: milk on October 05, 2020, 02:51:22 AM
(https://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/thumbnails/691062046329.pt01.jpg) here's something. This recording is a bit strange and I don't quite know what to make of it. Very fast tempos and  - just - out-of-the-ordinary choices. It might just be flying too fast, over my head.

Here's what Butt has to say about tempo

QuoteThe second – and more substantial – aspect of approach relates to tempo and tempo relationships,
and draws on and develops the work of Robert Marshall and Don Franklin, as well as some of my own
earlier research. There is very little that is absolutely certain about Bach's attitude to tempo and tempo
relations, and, if a system seems to emerge at some points, it is not consistently applied or necessarily
applicable to a broader range of cases. Therefore, my approach to this issue in performance can only
claim to use historical evidence as a starting point for some new ways of cultivating relationships and
continuity in performance today.


When we think about issues of tempo in music before 1800 we might sometimes be led to aim for a
specific metronome mark, one that could not have been easily established in Bach's age, but one towards
which we might assume the original performers were aiming. But perhaps the various shards of historical
evidence and thought that we can find suggest rather that this is substituting an end result for a much more
productive process; in other words, the actual speed seems to have been a by-product of several other
considerations. Here then, history might inspire us to think of several dimensions simultaneously – say,
pulse, notation, genre, mood, harmonic rhythm, range of note values – rather than aiming for a specific,
ideal tempo. While we can never recreate the thought processes of another age, we may at least be
able to share in some of the ways in which performers might have combined ideas and parameters.

In the absence of any metronomic absolute, the most common historical reference to any standard
– a tempo ordinario, as it is sometimes called – relates to the human pulse. The connection of the tactus to the
human pulse already had a history of several centuries, so it is tempting to abstract from this some sort
of consistency with Renaissance practice. For J.J. Quantz, writing in the middle of the eighteenth century,
the association between music and pulse is more one of convenience than of spiritual connection; but
it is from multiples and divisions of the human pulse that he derives four basic levels of speed. What
other writers, most importantly J.G. Walther, also suggest is that the pulse itself is very prone to variation
according to age, gender, temperament, mood and illness. So, we might imagine, the relation of the
pulse to something between 60 and 85 beats a minute is only a sort of standard measurement and not
to be applied in every possible case. The background pulse seems to relate to the broadest range
of the human experience, but not, say, to the animal world, or to the type of pulse possible with the
machinery of the industrial age. What Quantz's system suggests is that all tempi can relate to the human
pulse at some level, but that there is quite a variety within this. Moreover, there is clearly the possibility
of a proportional relationship between different metres.


J.P. Kirnberger, writing a little later, claimed to codify all he had learned from Bach. He relates tempo
to manifold aspects of mood and representation and recommends that each metre is best learned
through associated dances. He suggests that we imagine tempo like different forms of water-flow,
from the gentlest stream to the wildest sea. Not only this, but each metre brings with it a 'natural tempo'
– its tempo giusto, which is itself modified by dance style. Having this as a starting point, one next looks
at the shortest prevailing note value, which will normally moderate the tempo, the shorter the value.
Only then does Kirnberger mention Italian terms, suggesting that they can make the estimate of both
tempo and expression more precise: they might point to something that one would not otherwise
have guessed from the metre, genre and shortest note value. In all, what is attractive about Kirnberger's
system is its multiplicity of factors, all mutually inflecting, which together generate a tempo. Like Quantz,
he suggests that each metre implies a sort of tempo giusto, or tempo ordinario, which is the starting point for
gauging speed, although he does not specifically relate this to the human pulse.


Among several rules of thumb, Marshall usefully adapts Quantz's practice to suggest that Bach's
'normal' relation of duple simple time to compound is to preserve the beat in simple time as the
hemiola of the compound (i.e. one beat of a simple time, like 2/4, becomes two-thirds of a beat in
6/8, so that each compound beat gains a half value – an extra quaver); to put it simply, the quaver in simple time would be the same length as a quaver in compound. For faster tempi, on the other hand, the compound unit would equal the beat of the simple (i.e. the three quaver subdivisions in compound time
would fill the space of two in simple time). Franklin's hypotheses, based largely on Kirnberger, are more
elaborate and suggest that pieces belonging together can actually relate to one another and that Bach
will often employ a fermata at the end of a piece or subsection to indicate that the prevailing tempo giusto
is to be cancelled and reset.


In studying Bach's Mass in B minor, I have summarized several approaches to the relation between
successive sections. In short, if certain continuities or proportions of pulse are observed, there can be a 1:1
or 1:2 relation between the durational lengths of certain successive sections (most of these are explored
in my recording of the Mass, which also observes tempo connections where Bach omitted fermatas
between movements or indicated some form of 'sequitur'). So far as tempo indications and the placing
of fermatas are concerned in the WTC, it is unlikely that Bach's practice was completely consistent across
the quarter century involved, and no one source provides unequivocal evidence of his final, refined
thoughts. Furthermore, it is absolutely clear that individual components of the WTC were composed at
different times and that any relationship between successive pairs (and sometimes even within the pair)
was not necessarily determined at the point of composition. Moreover, the loose double-sheet structure
of the London autograph of Book II suggests that the individual pairs could be taken out and played
separately (each is designed so that the prelude was on one side and the fugue on the other, although
recomposition and extensions often meant that one of the movements had to spill over on to the other
side of the sheet). While the collection could clearly be used for many purposes, ranging between
pedagogy, performance and private pleasure, the approach here is to consider how tempo relations
might be established between certain pieces in the collection. I shall briefly describe these relations in
five categories.


Category 1. Where does a tempo relation seem to be excluded by Bach's use of fermatas? Here, we
might presume, a new tempo giusto is set for the fugue, without reference to the prelude. One example of
this might be the D minor Prelude of Book I, for there is a fermata on both the last chord and over the final
barline (coupled with the direction 'verte sequitur Fuga'). Here, then, a huge gap does not seem to be
implied, but the tempo is basically reset.


Category 2. Where does a consistent tempo between prelude and fugue seem implied? In Book I
the F major Prelude contains 18 bars of 12/8 and the fugue 72 bars of 3/8: so if the pulse is indeed identical,
the two pieces are of the same duration.

Category 3. Where might there be a direct 1:2 or 2:1 proportion between prelude and fugue?
An obvious example here is the B major Prelude and Fugue of Book II, where the prelude is in 4/4 time,
the fugue proceeding with the same beat transferred to the minim (Bach's very careful notating of rests
at the end of the prelude, without fermata, seems to imply a precise connection).


Category 4. Where might there be a more complex relationship between prelude and fugue?
One example could be the C sharp minor Prelude and Fugue of Book I, where (given the evidence
that triple metres are often faster than duple) the 6/4 bar of the prelude might equal a 4/4 bar of
tempo giusto. Then, assuming the stroke in the C time signature of the fugue carries its traditional
implication of halving the pulse (and thus doubling the speed), one bar of the latter piece would
be equal to half a bar of the old (thus three crotchets of the prelude would relate to two minims of
the fugue).


Category 5. If already much of this suggests a degree of speculation that is justified only to the
extent that it generates relatively integrated connections between prelude and fugue, what about
potential relations between pairs? These would obviously only pertain if one decided to perform the
pieces in succession. In Book I, the C minor Fugue sets up a pulse that can be modified by the addition
of a quaver in the C sharp major Prelude (thus the fugue's pulse is essentially the hemiola of the
succeeding prelude), or for a faster performance, following Quantz, this could also be done with the
3/8 metre squashed into one beat of the fugue. In Book II, the C sharp major Fugue could set up
the crotchet pulse of the C sharp minor Prelude (which, with the addition of a quaver, is thus slower).
From here the quick pulse of the C sharp minor Fugue can be abstracted directly from three
semiquavers of the prelude and, finally, the D major Prelude returns to the pulse of the C sharp minor
Prelude, but with the prominent falling gestures, beginning in bar 2 with a duple division of the beat,
the pulse of the C sharp minor Fugue, just past, is also integrated. In all then, the D major Prelude would
function to sum up the two types of pulse from the two previous pieces.


I have to stress that all the decisions based on tempo relations are starting points rather than
precise goals; the actual relationships may be quite imprecise at times. The intention is to reveal some
sort of connection between different pieces, even if it is a connection that leads to a marked contrast
of mood or embodied movement. It is well known that Gottfried Leibniz frequently used music as a
metaphor – but also an analogue – for the coherence of the world and our part in it. Its beauty and
emotional power are, to him, precisely calculated in the pre-established harmony and all sounds we hear relate to mathematical ratios. Leibniz further asserts that our souls somehow intuit the calculations involved, relating to the beats and vibrations behind harmony, and that we experience this as pleasure.
He extends this idea towards the progression of beats in time: the rhythms that make up the pulses
of individual notes are part of a plenum of pulses that includes the rhythm, metre and overall order of
music. The general enlightenment imperatives towards empathy and harmony according to universal
principles represent what one might call a 'one-world worldview'. The enlightenment was most
concerned with the world in which we live and one in which the human is the central point of interest.


In short, the sorts of tempo relation I have been suggesting, together with the central analogy with
the human pulse, relate to what I would describe as the 'one-world' view, a world with its own immense
variety and regularities, and one in which the human seems meant to feel 'at home', since both the
variety and the regularity have analogies with our own bodies and their functioning. Thus I would
distinguish my 'one-world' performance from the 'multi-world' style of many WTC performances.
The latter are absolutely authentic to a world in which human capabilities, indeed the human
imagination itself, are extended beyond any possible experience on the part of a single person.
In the 'multi-world' view there is both wonderment at super-human possibilities and horror and
alienation at our tiny place in such a daunting scheme. So are my one-world tendencies here simply
naïve, just like Leibniz's view of our inhabiting the most perfect of possible worlds? Certainly, there is the
danger of this, but perhaps there are great advantages in being reminded of the one-world view in our
own multi-world state. After all, the basic workings of our bodies have not changed that much since the
eighteenth century, and our being grounded in the possibilities and variations of our own pulse, and
the type of embodiment that this may imply, is hardly just wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 06, 2020, 02:13:35 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 06, 2020, 01:35:55 AM
Here's what Butt has to say about tempo
What do you think of this? I didn't give Butt much of a chance, I have to admit. BTW, which piano set are you liking these days? Butt seems radical to me. Aside from Rubsam, who else do you think has the adventure? I quite like Lepauw these days - although he has his hits and misses. I've been listening to Xao-mei recently. She's not radical, although she has heart. It's just that, as with pianists, she turns to dynamics too much. Just a little less would improve it a lot. I feel sort of lost these days. I think Leonhardt, Egarr, Frisch and Van Asperen are great. Demus and Feldman are great on piano...
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 06, 2020, 02:21:53 AM
Quote from: milk on October 06, 2020, 02:13:35 AM
What do you think of this? I didn't give Butt much of a chance, I have to admit. BTW, which piano set are you liking these days? Butt seems radical to me. Aside from Rubsam, who else do you think has the adventure? I quite like Lepauw these days - although he has his hits and misses. I've been listening to Xao-mei recently. She's not radical, although she has heart. It's just that, as with pianists, she turns to dynamics too much. Just a little less would improve it a lot. I feel sort of lost these days. I think Leonhardt, Egarr, Frisch and Van Asperen are great. Demus and Feldman are great on piano...

He tends to chose faster tempos than I'm used to and that makes it all sound brusque. You'd have to dig deeper than that article to see the nitty gritty of the justification for this -- that article is only a summary of his work. In the booklet he says

QuoteAn extended version of this note, with references, is available free at
www.linnrecords.com/recording-bach-das-wohltemperierte-klavier.aspx


but I can't find the extended article anywhere -- maybe write to him and ask him for it.

For what it's worth Butt's keyboard recordings are always fast and brusque. Go figure.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Old San Antone on October 06, 2020, 02:39:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 06, 2020, 01:35:55 AM
Here's what Butt has to say about tempo

I haven't listened to it yet, but it would appear that Butt's tempi are a product of a significant thought process.  But of course the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 06, 2020, 02:51:46 AM
Quote from: Old San Antone on October 06, 2020, 02:39:49 AM
I haven't listened to it yet, but it would appear that Butt's tempi are a product of a significant thought process.  But of course the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

I just note in passing that Colin Booth's WTC was also the result of a significant thought process -- he published a book about it -- and it is not fast and brusque, quite the opposite.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Old San Antone on October 06, 2020, 03:14:40 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 06, 2020, 02:51:46 AM
I just note in passing that Colin Booth's WTC was also the result of a significant thought process -- he published a book about it -- and it is not fast and brusque, quite the opposite.

Colin Booth's WTC does not seem to be on Spotify so I can't comment.  But after listening to the first few preludes and fugues John Butt's does appear to be brusque.  I compared him to several others: Celine Frisch, Suzuki, Gilbert, Rousset and Pinnock.  Whie some had around the same tempo, Butt's phrasing was a combination of herky-jerky and dismissive.  Not a recording I will spend much time with.  Of the ones I used as comparisons, Frisch and Pinnock appealed to me the most - but again, it was a quick listen and small sample size.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 06, 2020, 03:16:11 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 06, 2020, 02:51:46 AM
I just note in passing that Colin Booth's WTC was also the result of a significant thought process -- he published a book about it -- and it is not fast and brusque, quite the opposite.
much of Booth is streaming but not that. As for Butt, I'm liking it more and more. It's fresh. And intense. It makes my head spin a little though. Listening on headphones convinces me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 06, 2020, 03:20:30 AM
Quote from: Old San Antone on October 06, 2020, 03:14:40 AM
Colin Booth's WTC does not seem to be on Spotify so I can't comment.  But after listening to the first few preludes and fugues John Butt's does appear to be brusque.  I compared him to several others: Celine Frisch, Suzuki, Gilbert, Rousset and Pinnock.  Whie some had around the same tempo, Butt's phrasing was a combination of herky-jerky and dismissive.  Not a recording I will spend much time with.  Of the ones I used as comparisons, Frisch and Pinnock appealed to me the most - but again, it was a quick listen and small sample size.
I've only been listening to Bk2 but I gave it a chance and I've warmed to it. There are shining moments here.
ETA: BTW: some of Booth's WTC are on YouTube a long with this trippy visualization of the scores. It's really great because the animation shows how the fugues work. The playing is great too.

https://youtu.be/Kkz7lK6muZY
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 06, 2020, 03:00:01 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lCenC-TwL.jpg)
Colin Tilley uses a clavichord on Bk1 and a harpsichord on Bk2.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 12, 2020, 06:23:05 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/1YXdw-mrnzz0XQNgWjqUmo3l6ok=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-7396146-1440601908-9906.jpeg.jpg)
Listening to this today and I'm very impressed. Weiss is very alive, agile and intense. His performances are fresh without sounding unnatural. All in all, they're very convincing.
I really feel lately that it's much harder to find interesting performances of WTC on piano. I think almost all the major names associated with period instruments have something worthwhile to offer on WTC; whereas many of the big-named pianists come out lacking. Whether it's Egarr or Belder, Weiss, Wilson, Verlet, Leonhardt, Suzuki, Frisch, Paramentier, Dantone, Levin, etc., there's something worth hearing. Lately, my ears tell me it's not so with the piano. Maybe I'll come back around.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Old San Antone on October 12, 2020, 07:04:57 AM
Quote from: milk on October 12, 2020, 06:23:05 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/1YXdw-mrnzz0XQNgWjqUmo3l6ok=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-7396146-1440601908-9906.jpeg.jpg)
Listening to this today and I'm very impressed. Weiss is very alive, agile and intense. His performances are fresh without sounding unnatural. All in all, they're very convincing.
I really feel lately that it's much harder to find interesting performances of WTC on piano. I think almost all the major names associated with period instruments have something worthwhile to offer on WTC; whereas many of the big-named pianists come out lacking. Whether it's Egarr or Belder, Weiss, Wilson, Verlet, Leonhardt, Suzuki, Frisch, Paramentier, Dantone, Levin, etc., there's something worth hearing. Lately, my ears tell me it's not so with the piano. Maybe I'll come back around.

I don't think you're making an important point.  After all your personal taste in this matter is just that, your subjective response.  I on the other hand always prefer piano recordings to ones on harpsichord.

8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 12, 2020, 08:08:11 AM
The Weiss album is a fine album though personally I like thicker sound.
I enjoyed the Gilbert, Walcha and Jaccottet recordings in the last weekend.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 12, 2020, 08:09:09 AM
Jaccottet.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 12, 2020, 02:39:11 PM
Quote from: Old San Antone on October 12, 2020, 07:04:57 AM
I don't think you're making an important point.  After all your personal taste in this matter is just that, your subjective response.  I on the other hand always prefer piano recordings to ones on harpsichord.

8)
I don't know enough about music to make a strong objective case. I can guess at one or two. Pianists focus on dynamics more? There's something in the way piano is taught? 19th century techniques? Some pianists may go from Chopin to Bach without being steeped in the latter? But I know that's not the case with many pianists though. I'm really not saying any of these are right or half right but of course the harpsichord and the piano have different capabilities. Here's a question: do you think it's easier to go from 21st or 20th century music to baroque or from 19th century music?
I've been listening to a lot of piano versions lately and many of them seem conservative and staid to me.
But I'm fickle and I may swing back towards the piano at some point.
What are your favorite piano versions?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Old San Antone on October 12, 2020, 04:18:20 PM
Quote from: milk on October 12, 2020, 02:39:11 PM
I don't know enough about music to make a strong objective case. I can guess at one or two. Pianists focus on dynamics more? There's something in the way piano is taught? 19th century techniques? Some pianists may go from Chopin to Bach without being steeped in the latter? But I know that's not the case with many pianists though. I'm really not saying any of these are right or half right but of course the harpsichord and the piano have different capabilities. Here's a question: do you think it's easier to go from 21st or 20th century music to baroque or from 19th century music?
I've been listening to a lot of piano versions lately and many of them seem conservative and staid to me.
But I'm fickle and I may swing back towards the piano at some point.
What are your favorite piano versions?

I like Andras Schiff on EMI.  I'm sure there are others but I'd have to go back and look.  To be honest, I don't think of the questions you bring up.  I am a simple listener, I just listen and don't analyze the music.  If it sounds good to me, I consider it a good performance.  As far as if "it's easier to go from 21st or 20th century music to baroque or from 19th century music," my opinion is any good musician will play the music from these different periods in what they think of as an appropriate manner. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 12, 2020, 09:03:16 PM
Quote from: Old San Antone on October 12, 2020, 04:18:20 PM
I like Andras Schiff on EMI.  I'm sure there are others but I'd have to go back and look.  To be honest, I don't think of the questions you bring up.  I am a simple listener, I just listen and don't analyze the music.  If it sounds good to me, I consider it a good performance.  As far as if "it's easier to go from 21st or 20th century music to baroque or from 19th century music," my opinion is any good musician will play the music from these different periods in what they think of as an appropriate manner.
I can appreciate your opinion. I'm not saying this to make an argument but I haven't been happy with Schiff lately. The live Demus recording someone here gifted me is reliably engaging and enjoyable. It's a shame Demus didn't release a recoding later in his life. When I saw Demus perform WTC they were selling some of his live recordings from concerts in Japan. I regret not getting it but they wanted like 200$ for it.
I don't hear a lot of rubato in piano recordings generally.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 16, 2020, 07:04:52 AM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSCrdhrBapOWOV3DHuM-oPb7tBwlGl9GZg32Q&usqp=CAU)
She really does shine in the fugues.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: GioCar on October 18, 2020, 12:49:27 AM
Quote from: milk on October 16, 2020, 07:04:52 AM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSCrdhrBapOWOV3DHuM-oPb7tBwlGl9GZg32Q&usqp=CAU)
She really does shine in the fugues.

Listening to it right now. A very big +1
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 19, 2020, 02:15:23 AM
George Lepauw has the most interesting version of WTC on piano that I've heard - I mean of the last few years and excluding Demus's live stuff. He does more with rubato than any other recent pianist I'm aware of. It's true that he tests the listener. He's not subtle. He can be exasperating at times with his eccentric leaps. But I don't think he's taking the easy way out. It's not just flash, it seems a genuine and thoughtful exploration of the music.
I'm not going to say this is objectively true, but I find much more variety in the way harpsichordists play this. That's going to seem counter-intuitive and just wrong to people. It's ironic to me that I respond this way, seeing at how much more the piano can do, and maybe the piano is just really more subtle in ways I'm not finely tuned enough to appreciate. But, when I listen to Suzuki, Frisch, Wilson, Haas, Leonhardt, Paramentier, etc., The differences in the respective performances seem more evident to my ears. I've listened to a bunch of pianists recently and they seem much more same-y.
Maybe I just need to walk away from it for a while and come back with fresh ears.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on October 19, 2020, 03:51:19 AM
Quote from: milk on October 19, 2020, 02:15:23 AM
I'm not going to say this is objectively true, but I find much more variety in the way harpsichordists play this. That's going to seem counter-intuitive and just wrong to people. It's ironic to me that I respond this way, seeing at how much more the piano can do, and maybe the piano is just really more subtle in ways I'm not finely tuned enough to appreciate.

To me the point is, that all these things a piano can do, and a harpsichord can't, largely are irrelevant to the music.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Old San Antone on October 19, 2020, 04:50:52 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 19, 2020, 03:51:19 AM
To me the point is, that all these things a piano can do, and a harpsichord can't, largely are irrelevant to the music.

Maybe, according to your preference.  But I enjoy hearing Bach played on a piano since the music comes alive in a way that for me remains stiffer, and more strident, played on a harpsichord.  However, I sampled the WTC by George Lepauw and turned it off during the first fugue.  Way too "romantic" for my taste.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 19, 2020, 05:10:54 AM
Quote from: Old San Antone on October 19, 2020, 04:50:52 AM
Maybe, according to your preference.  But I enjoy hearing Bach played on a piano since the music comes alive in a way that for me remains stiffer, and more strident, played on a harpsichord.  However, I sampled the WTC by George Lepauw and turned it off during the first fugue.  Way too "romantic" for my taste.
he doesn't just stick with dynamics though, and he doesn't manically (or maniacally) blur the lines like Lim. A lot of what he does seems to be finding drama by using rubato. Sometimes it does sound romantic perhaps, I don't know. It's certainly not mainstream and doesn't remind me of anyone else in particular.
Anyway, I'm listening to Frédérick Haas at the moment and it just blows everything away. The A-minor prelude And fugue in Bk2 is a trip. Haas is brilliant and the instrument is superb.
There are just so many great harpsichord renditions now, some having come out in the last decade.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on October 19, 2020, 05:25:31 AM
Quote from: milk on October 19, 2020, 05:10:54 AM

Anyway, I'm listening to Frédérick Haas at the moment and it just blows everything away. The A-minor prelude And fugue in Bk2 is a trip. Haas is brilliant and the instrument is superb.
There are just so many great harpsichord renditions now, some having come out in the last decade.

Yes, I recently had some great hours with Frederick Haas' book II and his Goldberg variations, which are even better.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on October 25, 2020, 08:54:31 AM
Are these performances too subtle for me? I love the sound of the instrument, warm and with plenty of lovely color. I found the performances to put it in a polite way a bit characterless. I thought his use of ornamentation was a bit stingy, you'll go many pieces with very few then he'll use quite a bit in a single prelude or fugue.

Since I don't post on harpsichord much for frame of reference my two favorites in Book 1 are Kenneth Gilbert and Celine Frisch.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81lg--rNiDL._SL1400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Leo K. on October 26, 2020, 07:18:45 AM
Quote from: hvbias on October 25, 2020, 08:54:31 AM
Are these performances too subtle for me? I love the sound of the instrument, warm and with plenty of lovely color. I found the performances to put it in a polite way a bit characterless. I thought his use of ornamentation was a bit stingy, you'll go many pieces with very few then he'll use quite a bit in a single prelude or fugue.

Since I don't post on harpsichord much for frame of reference my two favorites in Book 1 are Kenneth Gilbert and Celine Frisch.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81lg--rNiDL._SL1400_.jpg)

Thank you for the heads up on this recording, as I love the sound of a softer Harpischord with plenty of nuances in the timbre. Also, Kenneth Gilbert is reference for me too. Celine Frisch's Rambeau blows the mind!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Leo K. on October 26, 2020, 07:23:55 AM
Quote from: milk on October 05, 2020, 02:51:22 AM
(https://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/thumbnails/691062046329.pt01.jpg) here's something. This recording is a bit strange and I don't quite know what to make of it. Very fast tempos and  - just - out-of-the-ordinary choices. It might just be flying too fast, over my head.

The Butt WTC sounds like something I've been looking for - I want a WTC that is fast, or isn't slow in any of the preludes/fugue - I'm so glad I heard about this.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 26, 2020, 02:09:07 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 26, 2020, 07:23:55 AM
The Butt WTC sounds like something I've been looking for - I want a WTC that is fast, or isn't slow in any of the preludes/fugue - I'm so glad I heard about this.
I'm curious if you enjoy it or not. I have to be pushed to try it again. It's Quite extreme.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 26, 2020, 02:17:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/x2UL4OTn0KU

Rübsam once said to me that he though that Robert Hill played with completely independent voices, I never really understood it but then I just came across this performance of BWV 888 from WTC2, and maybe Rübsam was right.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 26, 2020, 02:18:01 PM
Quote from: milk on October 26, 2020, 02:09:07 PM

I'm curious if you enjoy it or not. I have to be pushed to try it again. It's Quite extreme.

It is absolutely abysmal.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 26, 2020, 03:15:00 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 26, 2020, 02:17:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/x2UL4OTn0KU

Rübsam once said to me that he though that Robert Hill played with completely independent voices, I never really understood it but then I just came across this performance of BWV 888 from WTC2, and maybe Rübsam was right.
that's wonderful. Sorry, did he release a complete book? Sadly, I think not. How's his AOF?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Leo K. on December 08, 2020, 07:53:32 AM
Quote from: milk on October 26, 2020, 02:09:07 PM

I'm curious if you enjoy it or not. I have to be pushed to try it again. It's Quite extreme.

Unfortunately, it hasn't been the most enjoyable as it sounds a little stiff, not what I thought it would be! I revisited it many times the past few months and it's just not grabbing me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 22, 2021, 04:50:59 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519gJZHp9qL._SR600%2C315_PIWhiteStrip%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C35_SCLZZZZZZZ_FMpng_BG255%2C255%2C255.jpg)
Another harpsichord version of WTC that is fulfilling. It's a wonderfully recorded and an attractive instrument too. Devine has a sense of counterpoint and the drama between the voices. He gets a wonderful resonance out of the lower notes. This recording really drew me in. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on January 22, 2021, 05:12:06 AM
Quote from: milk on January 22, 2021, 04:50:59 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519gJZHp9qL._SR600%2C315_PIWhiteStrip%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C35_SCLZZZZZZZ_FMpng_BG255%2C255%2C255.jpg)
Another harpsichord version of WTC that is fulfilling. It's a wonderfully recorded and an attractive instrument too. Devine has a sense of counterpoint and the drama between the voices. He gets a wonderful resonance out of the lower notes. This recording really drew me in.

The harpsichord was made by Colin Booth and is for that reason self recommending. I may investigate this too, even if I wasn't that impressed by Devine's Goldbergs or his Bustijn suites.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on January 22, 2021, 06:12:30 AM
Quote from: milk on January 22, 2021, 04:50:59 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519gJZHp9qL.jpg)

Another harpsichord version of WTC that is fulfilling. It's a wonderfully recorded and an attractive instrument too. Devine has a sense of counterpoint and the drama between the voices. He gets a wonderful resonance out of the lower notes. This recording really drew me in.

I took it for a testdrive on Spotify, and quite liked it.
But it were the lapses in tension and impetus, that led me to strike it from the list.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 22, 2021, 03:25:34 PM
Quote from: Que on January 22, 2021, 06:12:30 AM
I took it for a testdrive on Spotify, and quite liked it.
But it were the lapses in tension and impetus, that led me to strike it from the list.

Q
It's not the best but it offers something in some places. I find every major harpsichord recording of the last few years has something whereas many of the piano are Ho-hum.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on January 23, 2021, 12:25:12 AM
Quote from: milk on January 22, 2021, 03:25:34 PM

It's not the best but it offers something in some places. I find every major harpsichord recording of the last few years has something whereas many of the piano are Ho-hum.

Absolutely, and Devine has a lot going for it in style & sound.
In recent years I did buy the sets by Rousset. Even though by that time his style moved from brazenly brilliant but solid, to eccentric and enigmatic. Fascinating all the same. But I wished he recorded his WTC in his years on Ambronay - those recordings are stunning, and better recorded too.

Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 24, 2021, 05:47:27 AM
Quote from: Que on January 23, 2021, 12:25:12 AM
Absolutely, and Devine has a lot going for it in style & sound.
In recent years I did buy the sets by Rousset. Even though by that time his style moved from brazenly brilliant but solid, to eccentric and enigmatic. Fascinating all the same. But I wished he recorded his WTC in his years on Ambronay - those recordings are stunning, and better recorded too.

Q
I remember Mandryka not liking Rousset at all. But I don't remember why. I also wonder if Pinnock is any good in this. I know Pinnock is a big figure in the world of Bach but I can't say there's any recording of his that I've latched on to. 
BTW: Michel Kierner is not bad also.

ETA: I've just sampled a bit of Pinnock. I think I did sample this before and so that'd be two bad impressions. Admittedly, these are just quick takes.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 24, 2021, 08:34:42 AM
Quote from: milk on January 24, 2021, 05:47:27 AM
I remember Mandryka not liking Rousset at all.

Are you an elephant?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 24, 2021, 03:27:22 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 24, 2021, 08:34:42 AM
Are you an elephant?
:laugh:
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 28, 2021, 11:15:40 PM
(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2021/01/28/uxixh4-bachwell-t-preview-m3.jpg)
My first impression is that this is another mediocre and unchallenging offering from a well-known pianist - played without much rubato or special insight. Maybe I'm wrong. I'll try it again later.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on January 29, 2021, 03:11:37 AM
Quote from: milk on January 28, 2021, 11:15:40 PM
(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2021/01/28/uxixh4-bachwell-t-preview-m3.jpg)
My first impression is that this is another mediocre and unchallenging offering from a well-known pianist - played without much rubato or special insight. Maybe I'm wrong. I'll try it again later.

In principle I do not collect piano versions of the WTC any more. I have been seriously disappointed too many times.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 29, 2021, 04:14:51 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 29, 2021, 03:11:37 AM
In principle I do not collect piano versions of the WTC any more. I have been seriously disappointed too many times.
have you tried Lepauw? I'd be interested to get your impression. But, yes, I'm changing my current streaming service for something different and happy to jettison my Bach piano playlists. I feel I need to start from scratch. A lot of these piano sets get rave reviews, like Anderszewski.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on January 29, 2021, 07:22:42 AM
Quote from: milk on January 28, 2021, 11:15:40 PM
(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2021/01/28/uxixh4-bachwell-t-preview-m3.jpg)
My first impression is that this is another mediocre and unchallenging offering from a well-known pianist - played without much rubato or special insight. Maybe I'm wrong. I'll try it again later.

Strange stiff playing sometimes, in the opening prelude for example, generally when he plays slow it's a bit unvarying in the old pulse department. And when he plays fast he's just another bloody piano player playing Bach fast. You'd have to be a pianophile to enjoy this one I think.

He's a one trick pony. Diablelli variations being the trick. The rest is professional at best, often inclined to degenerate into reprehensible bad taste tweeness.

Still I'm not disappointed because I was expecting this sort of thing, I heard him play some WTC a couple of years ago.

Right, that's enough of that. Back to Karlheinz.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on January 30, 2021, 05:55:43 AM
Quote from: milk on January 29, 2021, 04:14:51 AM
have you tried Lepauw? I'd be interested to get your impression. But, yes, I'm changing my current streaming service for something different and happy to jettison my Bach piano playlists. I feel I need to start from scratch. A lot of these piano sets get rave reviews, like Anderszewski.

Presto offers the first minute of all 96 pieces as clips, so I listened to these. It seems to be a thoughtful interpretation and maybe a bit overthought. First I liked his calm tempi, but as listening went forth I began to find the pace of many of the pieces severely dragging and depriving the music of its tension. Also his mannered agogoics felt unnatural in the long run. On the plus side is his modest dynamic excursions and a crystal clear part-playing and articulation and the fact, that he is able to play a real non-legato on the piano without without falling into the trap of playing Gouldian hyperstaccato. Lepauw's estetics seems to me clavichord related, and maybe his WTC might have made a better impact on a clavichord.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 30, 2021, 01:50:21 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 30, 2021, 05:55:43 AM
Presto offers the first minute of all 96 pieces as clips, so I listened to these. It seems to be a thoughtful interpretation and maybe a bit overthought. First I liked his calm tempi, but as listening went forth I began to find the pace of many of the pieces severely dragging and depriving the music of its tension. Also his mannered agogoics felt unnatural in the long run. On the plus side is his modest dynamic excursions and a crystal clear part-playing and articulation and the fact, that he is able to play a real non-legato on the piano without without falling into the trap of playing Gouldian hyperstaccato. Lepauw's estetics seems to me clavichord related, and maybe his WTC might have made a better impact on a clavichord.
Yes, "overthought" is what I would guess Mandryka might think as well. I like his courage and daring but the effort maybe shows too much. I still like it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 31, 2021, 03:41:37 PM
(https://static-files.nifc.pl/_foto/wydawnictwa/200/414931763.jpg)
Lubimov is utterly charming on this "romantic" version of Bach. There are just a few pieces here from WTC. Chopin's parlor piano adds totally new insight with its bass notes sounding something like a double bass.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: amw on January 31, 2021, 03:58:29 PM
It would be nice if Lubimov (or perhaps Schiff or Staier or Pashchenko) recorded the whole thing on a fortepiano of some variety, but I suppose such things are still Not Done unless it can be justified under the heading of some kind of concept album.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on January 31, 2021, 10:47:30 PM
Quote from: amw on January 31, 2021, 03:58:29 PM
It would be nice if Lubimov (or perhaps Schiff or Staier or Pashchenko) recorded the whole thing on a fortepiano of some variety, but I suppose such things are still Not Done unless it can be justified under the heading of some kind of concept album.
Genzoh Takehisa recorded BKII and the Partitas on a fortepiano. It's worth the effort to get ahold of these recordings.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on February 03, 2021, 02:12:10 AM
Quote from: milk on January 31, 2021, 03:41:37 PM
(https://static-files.nifc.pl/_foto/wydawnictwa/200/414931763.jpg)
Lubimov is utterly charming on this "romantic" version of Bach. There are just a few pieces here from WTC. Chopin's parlor piano adds totally new insight with its bass notes sounding something like a double bass.

OT but I also really like the Moonlight Sonata in that collection.  In the 3rd movement, Presto, the instrument woefully runs out of puff, to almost comic effect.  But the 1st and 2nd movements are sweet.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on February 03, 2021, 06:31:20 AM
Two recordings I came across that sound promising:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81lLtZBVbyL._SS500_.jpg)
I listened to some of this and liked what I heard very much: there's creativity and vitality here and not a little bit of daring. But I bet it's the kind of thing that would drive some people crazy because there's so much attention to articulation of phrases.
I also came across this:
(http://prodimage.images-bn.com/pimages/5998309302756_p0_v1_s1200x630.jpg)
I like what I heard of this too. The instrument has some unique registrations that caught my attention although I need to hear more to form a better opinion of the playing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on February 03, 2021, 06:42:46 AM
Quote from: milk on February 03, 2021, 06:31:20 AM
Two recordings I came across that sound promising:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81lLtZBVbyL._SS500_.jpg)
I listened to some of this and liked what I heard very much: there's creativity and vitality here and not a little bit of daring. But I bet it's the kind of thing that would drive some people crazy because there's so much attention to articulation of phrases.

Since the phrasing here is done with good taste, I find this recording interesting and innovative. And I do not feel, that any of her expressive means are pasted on the music.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 03, 2021, 09:01:37 AM
Liksaite-Mrazkova also appears on Tuma's AoF, I think both of them are very attentive to phrasing - in fact I find Tuma's WTC phrasing less intense and in a way, I prefer it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on February 03, 2021, 04:48:16 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 03, 2021, 09:01:37 AM
Liksaite-Mrazkova also appears on Tuma's AoF, I think both of them are very attentive to phrasing - in fact I find Tuma's WTC phrasing less intense and in a way, I prefer it.
I have to listen again: both he and Tilney did books in clavichord (Tilney only Bk1). I think you like Tuma better? But Tilney is better than he gets credit for I think.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 03, 2021, 07:33:01 PM
Quote from: milk on February 03, 2021, 04:48:16 PM
I have to listen again: both he and Tilney did books in clavichord (Tilney only Bk1). I think you like Tuma better? But Tilney is better than he gets credit for I think.

Haven't heard the Tilney Bk 1, or the Tuma Bk1
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on February 05, 2021, 04:02:34 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RPo6yfOSL._SX300_SY300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)
I'm gonna keep beating this horse. I think this dude gets an unfairly bad rap. Give him another shot folks - particularly on his WTC. Yes, sometimes he feels stuck in the mud and sometimes he's a bit ponderous. But he has satisfying moments.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on February 06, 2021, 06:01:23 AM
Quote from: milk on February 05, 2021, 04:02:34 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RPo6yfOSL._SX300_SY300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)
I'm gonna keep beating this horse. I think this dude gets an unfairly bad rap. Give him another shot folks - particularly on his WTC. Yes, sometimes he feels stuck in the mud and sometimes he's a bit ponderous. But he has satisfying moments.

Very good set. I like the label as well.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on March 16, 2021, 02:29:26 AM
I put this in the Shostakovich forum but I think it's worth copying over here in case anyone is interested in this. Here's what I posted:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71vaaPdH0zL._SS500_.jpg)
I think this is a very unique and interesting recording I just discovered. Do you know this one? Mustonen plays a program of Bach's and Shostakovich's respective preludes and fugues. He intersperses the sets. I wonder if he did these live as well. He takes the tack of playing Bach more like Shostakovich rather than vice versa and it pretty much works. The way he plays Bach here ordinarily would annoy me. This much pianism in the hands of another could very well come across as tacky and crass. But somehow it works, by juxtaposition and even in the manner of a Feinberg if I can make such a lofty comparison. He's dynamically jagged, which could get on one's nerves in the Bach if he didn't switch over to Shostakovich. But his imagination shines through in both, by way of creative and energetic articulation, and makes this a winning effort.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on March 16, 2021, 08:36:15 AM
Quote from: milk on March 16, 2021, 02:29:26 AM
I put this in the Shostakovich forum but I think it's worth copying over here in case anyone is interested in this. Here's what I posted:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71vaaPdH0zL._SS500_.jpg)
I think this is a very unique and interesting recording I just discovered. Do you know this one? Mustonen plays a program of Bach's and Shostakovich's respective preludes and fugues. He intersperses the sets. I wonder if he did these live as well. He takes the tack of playing Bach more like Shostakovich rather than vice versa and it pretty much works. The way he plays Bach here ordinarily would annoy me. This much pianism in the hands of another could very well come across as tacky and crass. But somehow it works, by juxtaposition and even in the manner of a Feinberg if I can make such a lofty comparison. He's dynamically jagged, which could get on one's nerves in the Bach if he didn't switch over to Shostakovich. But his imagination shines through in both, by way of creative and energetic articulation, and makes this a winning effort.

Yes I used to play that a lot, and it's been nice to revisit it today, so thanks for the reminder. He's a bit like HJ Lim - I mean lots of imagination and freedom from convention, IMO both entertainers, Lim more so.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on March 16, 2021, 04:11:06 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 16, 2021, 08:36:15 AM
Yes I used to play that a lot, and it's been nice to revisit it today, so thanks for the reminder. He's a bit like HJ Lim - I mean lots of imagination and freedom from convention, IMO both entertainers, Lim more so.
I think I saw the Lim on YouTube recently. If I'm thinking of the same thing. But I found it unbearable. Maybe I was being rash but it seemed unmusical.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: amw on March 16, 2021, 05:07:48 PM
Lim (and Gould) are almost always unmusical; Mustonen (and Kawamura and Gulda) are almost always musically acceptable but a bit weird. I'm not sure what creates this dividing line for me or anyone else, since it's different for everyone (eg I would generally put Ernst Levy and John Khouri on the unmusical side, but many people have the exact opposite reaction)

I think it's possible to free yourself from convention without becoming completely self centered.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 16, 2021, 06:50:03 PM
As for the recording of Book 2 by Walcha, the recording sounds like skipping around 4-5th second in the No. 1: P and F. BWV 870. Sounds like the master tape was damaged. Is there any disk of the identical recording without the skip? I doubt, but am asking in case.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on March 16, 2021, 07:09:33 PM
Quote from: amw on March 16, 2021, 05:07:48 PM
Lim (and Gould) are almost always unmusical; Mustonen (and Kawamura and Gulda) are almost always musically acceptable but a bit weird. I'm not sure what creates this dividing line for me or anyone else, since it's different for everyone (eg I would generally put Ernst Levy and John Khouri on the unmusical side, but many people have the exact opposite reaction)

I think it's possible to free yourself from convention without becoming completely self centered.
I agree about Gould. Kawamura is a Bach pianist? I have to look that one up. W/Khouri, we're talking about Chopin?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: amw on March 17, 2021, 12:14:55 AM
Quote from: milk on March 16, 2021, 07:09:33 PM
I agree about Gould. Kawamura is a Bach pianist? I have to look that one up. W/Khouri, we're talking about Chopin?
No and no. I just meant pianists in general.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on March 17, 2021, 12:17:32 AM
The problem is that "unmusical" can only be verified by analysing the source material. It's an essentially academic concept, not accessible through perception of the performance. It is also critical rather than hermeneutic. It part of an activity which asks:"How good is this performance?" and not "Does this performance make any sort of sense?" - I HATE criticism!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on March 17, 2021, 12:54:22 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 16, 2021, 06:50:03 PM
As for the recording of Book 2 by Walcha, the recording sounds like skipping around 4-5th second in the No. 1: P and F. BWV 870. Sounds like the master tape was damaged. Is there any disk of the identical recording without the skip? I doubt, but am asking in case.

The DG or the EMI? And which release?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on March 17, 2021, 01:37:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 17, 2021, 12:17:32 AM
The problem is that "unmusical" can only be verified by analysing the source material. It's an essentially academic concept, not accessible through perception of the performance. It is also critical rather than hermeneutic. It part of an activity which asks:"How good is this performance?" and not "Does this performance make any sort of sense?" - I HATE criticism!
My reaction to Lim was, "why is she playing this way?" I don't really know the correct technical terms and I know I'm not very knowledgeable about music really. Kim's Bach just didn't make sense to me. I didn't feel it was serious about Bach's music; it seemed to be coming from somewhere else other than just Bach. But I don't know if I'm making sense either. Gould does seem to have thought a lot about Bach but I just can't stand his conclusions about it and I don't really understand why he plays that way either. Mustonen makes sense to me in the way Feinberg does. And with Shostakovich, it really seems coherent, if not always organic or serious.
I couldn't help feeling that Lim is for people that don't care much about Bach.
Gould offends me because in popular culture he's taken over a lane. I feel like, "this road doesn't belong to you. Move over and let some traffic through!"
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on March 17, 2021, 03:11:08 AM
Quote from: milk on March 17, 2021, 01:37:08 AM
My reaction to Lim was, "why is she playing this way?" I don't really know the correct technical terms and I know I'm not very knowledgeable about music really. Kim's Bach just didn't make sense to me. I didn't feel it was serious about Bach's music; it seemed to be coming from somewhere else other than just Bach. But I don't know if I'm making sense either. Gould does seem to have thought a lot about Bach but I just can't stand his conclusions about it and I don't really understand why he plays that way either. Mustonen makes sense to me in the way Feinberg does. And with Shostakovich, it really seems coherent, if not always organic or serious.
I couldn't help feeling that Lim is for people that don't care much about Bach.
Gould offends me because in popular culture he's taken over a lane. I feel like, "this road doesn't belong to you. Move over and let some traffic through!"

I think the performances which don't seem to make sense when you hear them are the most interesting performances, because they demand a leap of the imagination - if you rise to the challenge of making sense of it.

Quote from: milk on March 17, 2021, 01:37:08 AM

I couldn't help feeling that Lim is for people that don't care much about Bach.

Well they're interested enough in something which is in some way connected to Bach to listen to the performance. What more can you expect?

Quote from: milk on March 17, 2021, 01:37:08 AM

Gould offends me because in popular culture he's taken over a lane. I feel like, "this road doesn't belong to you. Move over and let some traffic through!"

That's true for the first Goldbergs, again IMO not a bad thing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on March 17, 2021, 03:15:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 17, 2021, 03:11:08 AM
I think the performances which don't seem to make sense when you hear them are the most interesting performances, because they demand a leap of the imagination - if you rise to the challenge of making sense of it.
I don't disagree. Lim just seemed sloppy and uninteresting. But I know what you mean.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 17, 2021, 07:55:07 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 17, 2021, 12:54:22 AM
The DG or the EMI? And which release?

Thank you for your response. I was talking about the album below, which sounds identical to the EMI recording, but I found that the BWV 870 in DG and EMI are just fine. I will buy the both. Thank you.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Jo498 on March 17, 2021, 10:28:57 AM
I checked the big Walcha box (EMI/warner), that is my physical disc of WTC II,i and could not detect any problem. The sound quality is ca. 1960 and non-historical harpsichord, but taking this into account, comparably pleasant. It's still quite cheap and certainly worth it.

[asin]B071LRS4YS[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 17, 2021, 01:48:10 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on March 17, 2021, 10:28:57 AM
I checked the big Walcha box (EMI/warner), that is my physical disc of WTC II,i and could not detect any problem. The sound quality is ca. 1960 and non-historical harpsichord, but taking this into account, comparably pleasant. It's still quite cheap and certainly worth it.

[asin]B071LRS4YS[/asin]

I admire the recording!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on March 31, 2021, 05:08:44 AM
(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2021/03/24/re2x7c-jsbachthew-preview-m3.jpg)
I'm not finding this revelatory. I'm not feeling like he has anything deep to say here, which is a disappointment.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on March 31, 2021, 07:14:38 AM
Quote from: milk on March 31, 2021, 05:08:44 AM
(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2021/03/24/re2x7c-jsbachthew-preview-m3.jpg)
I'm not finding this revelatory. I'm not feeling like he has anything deep to say here, which is a disappointment.

I have generally beeen disappointed by his recordings during the last years.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Old San Antone on March 31, 2021, 10:30:18 AM
Quote from: milk on March 17, 2021, 03:15:22 AM
I don't disagree. Lim just seemed sloppy and uninteresting. But I know what you mean.

If her Bach is anything like her Beethoven, your impression would be accurate.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 06, 2021, 04:03:13 AM
(https://mediacdn.aent-m.com/prod-img/1000/52/3931152-2686446.jpg)
I can't say I really enjoy this kind of thing. I don't know why. I feel very distant from the music when it's made this way.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 06, 2021, 04:57:48 AM
Quote from: milk on April 06, 2021, 04:03:13 AM
(https://mediacdn.aent-m.com/prod-img/1000/52/3931152-2686446.jpg)
I can't say I really enjoy this kind of thing. I don't know why. I feel very distant from the music when it's made this way.

Yep, utterly uninteresting, Bach's keyboard music doesn't survive transcription.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Old San Antone on April 06, 2021, 05:24:09 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 06, 2021, 04:57:48 AM
Yep, utterly uninteresting, Bach's keyboard music doesn't survive transcription.

I think there are a number of fine transcriptions of The Goldberg Variations and Art of Fugue.  Maybe the WTC is a different kind of work.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 06, 2021, 06:00:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 06, 2021, 04:57:48 AM
Yep, utterly uninteresting, Bach's keyboard music doesn't survive transcription.
There's a review on musicweb that's just raving. The reviewer loves it. I wonder if there's a big market for it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 06, 2021, 06:24:33 AM
Quote from: Old San Antone on April 06, 2021, 05:24:09 AM
I think there are a number of fine transcriptions of The Goldberg Variations and Art of Fugue.  Maybe the WTC is a different kind of work.

I don't agree.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on April 06, 2021, 06:27:11 AM
Quote from: milk on April 06, 2021, 06:00:41 AM
There's a review on musicweb that's just raving. The reviewer loves it. I wonder if there's a big market for it.

QuoteThis is a recording for late candle-lit nights, your favourite slippers and a glass of something civilised, and you can't ask for much more than that.

It's a recording for pipe and slippers people.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pipe%20and%20Slippers
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on April 06, 2021, 01:47:44 PM
I'm finding Kenneth Weiss' cycle extremely good. I'd love to see him play this live, it's very expressive.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on April 07, 2021, 04:13:28 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 06, 2021, 06:27:11 AM
It's a recording for pipe and slippers people.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pipe%20and%20Slippers
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: hvbias on April 06, 2021, 01:47:44 PM
I'm finding Kenneth Weiss' cycle extremely good. I'd love to see him play this live, it's very expressive.
Me too!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on April 07, 2021, 04:46:37 AM
Quote from: milk on April 07, 2021, 04:13:28 AM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:Me too!

Me three   ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 07, 2021, 07:14:32 AM
Quote from: Old San Antone on April 06, 2021, 05:24:09 AM
I think there are a number of fine transcriptions of The Goldberg Variations and Art of Fugue.  Maybe the WTC is a different kind of work.

Quote from: Mandryka on April 06, 2021, 06:24:33 AM
I don't agree.

Well, I'm w/ San Antone and the Goldberg Variations - own these works on probably a half dozen different instrument(s), including a number of keyboards, harp, guitar, and strings.

Usually enjoy Bach transcriptions and would like to hear Phantasm doing the WTC, but not available at the moment on Spotify, my only subscribed streaming service - any other 'free' sites to hear these works (preferably not short snippets).  Thanks.  Dave
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on May 05, 2021, 08:50:47 PM
Mahan Esfahani WTC 1

https://www.youtube.com/v/jtEY1kDzmHc&feature=emb_imp_woyt

On his new harpsichord!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Selig on August 19, 2021, 10:55:57 PM
The new Cristiano Holtz seems so far innovative without being too sensational. I think I like his registrational approach more than Esfahani's. It's a pity that performance at Wigmore Hall was removed though.

(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2021-08/1629394951_cover.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on August 20, 2021, 01:16:04 AM
Quote from: Selig on August 19, 2021, 10:55:57 PMIt's a pity that performance at Wigmore Hall was removed though.

Send me a message if you want the sound file.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on August 24, 2021, 03:12:21 PM
Quote from: Selig on August 19, 2021, 10:55:57 PM
The new Cristiano Holtz seems so far innovative without being too sensational. I think I like his registrational approach more than Esfahani's. It's a pity that performance at Wigmore Hall was removed though.

(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2021-08/1629394951_cover.jpg)

I enjoyed Christiano Holtz, there is a certain humbleness to this ala DHM Leonhardt. One other interesting thing, up here we have a large open plan living room with vaulted ceilings and double story windows to the left that can be closed for acoustic reasons with the speakers pulled out pretty far from the front wall. You could really get a sense for just how large that instrument is.

Unfortunate that there are problems with mic'ing, like on the C minor prelude that has a good amount of bass it's creating a rather ugly boxy congested sound.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on August 25, 2021, 03:23:17 AM
Quote from: Selig on August 19, 2021, 10:55:57 PM
The new Cristiano Holtz seems so far innovative without being too sensational. I think I like his registrational approach more than Esfahani's. It's a pity that performance at Wigmore Hall was removed though.

(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2021-08/1629394951_cover.jpg)

Yeah, I feel like part of the register is missing. It's like, some of the notes aren't there or something. Maybe it just takes getting used to.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 30, 2021, 07:15:29 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/415vsJemvBL._SY355_.jpg) I put this up every so often - In spite of knowing no one likes it. 🤔😁

Also this:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/7162cWI4ThL._SY355_.jpg) Sensitive playing. Sometimes bleak.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on October 01, 2021, 08:24:57 AM
Quote from: milk on September 30, 2021, 07:15:29 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/415vsJemvBL._SY355_.jpg) I put this up every so often - In spite of knowing no one likes it. 🤔😁

Don't think you are obliged to plan your listening according to others tastes, because others tastes may be fallacious.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 01, 2021, 09:22:34 AM
Quote from: milk on September 30, 2021, 07:15:29 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/415vsJemvBL._SY355_.jpg) I put this up every so often - In spite of knowing no one likes it. 🤔😁



I like it!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 02, 2021, 07:27:49 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 01, 2021, 09:22:34 AM
I like it!
Glad to hear I'm not the only one.
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 01, 2021, 08:24:57 AM
Don't think you are obliged to plan your listening according to others tastes, because others tastes may be fallacious.
Hear hear!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 04, 2021, 04:27:44 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/6130YlakvDL._SL1200_.jpg)

How do you reduce this? Well. This is one not talked about but so far I'm enjoying it. I can't say its qualities yet.
Also: Aaron Pilsen is a new guy on the block. Looks like a fashion ad:

(https://reviews.azureedge.net/gramophone/media-thumbnails/ALPHA669.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on October 30, 2021, 07:25:24 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51+wiD3A67L.jpg) I think this is very fine. The instrument has character and Kiener judges well. It's a confident rendition with a lot of spirit and joy. He's flexible with his rubato as well. He has a touch.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 22, 2021, 06:56:54 PM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/lc/ez/ce62h7y8sezlc_600.jpg) it's a crowded field but I think this should be added to one's collection. I've only listened a little so far. The instrument is interesting and Staier takes enough risks and has enough vision.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on November 22, 2021, 11:23:42 PM
Quote from: milk on November 22, 2021, 06:56:54 PM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/lc/ez/ce62h7y8sezlc_600.jpg)

it's a crowded field but I think this should be added to one's collection. I've only listened a little so far. The instrument is interesting and Staier takes enough risks and has enough vision.

I really admire Andreas Staier, but I never got along with his Bach. I will give it a try.  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on November 23, 2021, 12:30:32 AM
Vigorous and expressive playing from Staier - it's like a cross between Scott Ross and Kenneth Gilbert. Lovely harpsichord (d'après Albrecht Hass (1734)) - big bass, attractive lute stop -  and seductively recorded, with a sense of room in the sound image which I adore. This is the best of Staier's solo Bach I think.

It is wearing to listen to, there's not enough relief and variety of approach to make it something for more than a handful of pieces at a time.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 23, 2021, 01:34:25 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 23, 2021, 12:30:32 AM
Vigorous and expressive playing from Staier - it's like a cross between Scott Ross and Kenneth Gilbert. Lovely harpsichord (d'après Albrecht Hass (1734)) - big bass, attractive lute stop -  and seductively recorded, with a sense of room in the sound image which I adore. This is the best of Staier's solo Bach I think.

It is wearing to listen to, there's not enough relief and variety of approach to make it something for more than a handful of pieces at a time.
that sounds about right. He's weird in his Bach. What's up with his Goldberg-s? I'm guessing I won't be this handling all at once. I like what I've heard though.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 24, 2021, 01:17:32 PM
Decent performance and nice instrument, but so much reverb.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on November 24, 2021, 01:20:52 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 24, 2021, 01:17:32 PM
Decent performance and nice instrument, but so much reverb.

Is it the same instrument he used for his Goldbergs?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 25, 2021, 07:16:28 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 24, 2021, 01:20:52 PM
Is it the same instrument he used for his Goldbergs?
it seems so. It's the same builder and it's a copy of a Haas. That's what he uses on the Goldbergs so I'm guessing it's the same instrument though I could be wrong. At one point I liked his Goldberg's and then I got tired of it and never listened again. It might deserve a revisit but I do agree that this is an imposing sounding instrument and can wear one down.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 25, 2021, 10:12:56 PM
...Listening to Kenneth Weiss and marveling about how much more attractive his instrument is.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on November 30, 2021, 06:37:21 PM
(https://reviews.azureedge.net/gramophone/media-thumbnails/bach_well-tempered.jpg)

I'm reassessing this. I think it needs more consideration.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on November 30, 2021, 06:48:49 PM
Quote from: milk on September 30, 2021, 07:15:29 AM


Also this:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/7162cWI4ThL._SY355_.jpg) Sensitive playing. Sometimes bleak.

Revisiting this, made a playlist of hers, Evelyn Howard Jones, Edwin Fischer and sampling St. Laurent's true mono transfers of Samuil Feinberg (opposed to the fake stereo/noise reduction Russian Piano School).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 01, 2021, 05:19:22 AM
Quote from: milk on November 30, 2021, 06:37:21 PM
(https://reviews.azureedge.net/gramophone/media-thumbnails/bach_well-tempered.jpg)

I'm reassessing this. I think it needs more consideration.

To me it was like an unimaginative run through, not much different from sight-reading. Very disappointing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 01, 2021, 05:20:40 AM
Quote from: milk on November 25, 2021, 10:12:56 PM
...Listening to Kenneth Weiss and marveling about how much more attractive his instrument is.

Yes, this is something else, noble, tasteful and well-sounding.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 01, 2021, 05:38:06 AM
Quote from: milk on November 30, 2021, 06:37:21 PM
(https://reviews.azureedge.net/gramophone/media-thumbnails/bach_well-tempered.jpg)

I'm reassessing this. I think it needs more consideration.

I think you need to say more to make that idea convincing. Take a specific piece and say what makes it interesting for you.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 01, 2021, 05:39:48 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 01, 2021, 05:19:22 AM
To me it was like an unimaginative run through, not much different from sight-reading. Very disappointing.
I was trying it out again today mostly because I like Dunedin so much. I just thought that there has to me more to Butt. I think Dunedin Cantatas and B-mass are fine recordings - attractive, unpretentious...or maybe I really like this pared-down approach in any vocal music. Kuijken, for example. Dunedin is a little more brisk and finely detailed than Kuijken sometimes. maybe. Anyway, Butt seems to get Bach in the vocal stuff, I wonder at his approach to the WTC. But, yeah, WTC is such deep waters. I expect a lot from anyone delving into it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 01, 2021, 05:45:24 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 01, 2021, 05:38:06 AM
I think you need to say more to make that idea convincing. Take a specific piece and say what makes it interesting for you.
Yeah, there isn't anything. I want to like something here but I am not finding anything. I thought it deserved more consideration but I'm still not affected by it. The musicianship in Dunedin is very good and I think Butt's leadership in that ensemble is successful. I've listened to their latest Bach cantata recording several times. So, why doesn't Butt give us more in WTC? I don't know. The recording is wooden, inexpressive, etc. I thought wrong. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 01, 2021, 12:45:27 PM
Quote from: milk on December 01, 2021, 05:39:48 AM
I was trying it out again today mostly because I like Dunedin so much. I just thought that there has to me more to Butt. I think Dunedin Cantatas and B-mass are fine recordings - attractive, unpretentious...or maybe I really like this pared-down approach in any vocal music. Kuijken, for example. Dunedin is a little more brisk and finely detailed than Kuijken sometimes. maybe. Anyway, Butt seems to get Bach in the vocal stuff, I wonder at his approach to the WTC. But, yeah, WTC is such deep waters. I expect a lot from anyone delving into it.

I fully agree, that the Dunedin's recordings are enjoyable (Brandenburgs, violin concertos, passions and b-minor mass), but as to Butt's recordings as a keyboardist, there is a but(t) (pun of course intended), as they generally are quite unremarkable (WTC, and some Bach organ recordings as well as organ music by Cabanilles, Frescobaldi and Pachelbel). His Kuhnau btw is moderately interesting.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 04, 2021, 07:18:18 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 01, 2021, 12:45:27 PM
I fully agree, that the Dunedin's recordings are enjoyable (Brandenburgs, violin concertos, passions and b-minor mass), but as to Butt's recordings as a keyboardist, there is a but(t) (pun of course intended), as they generally are quite unremarkable (WTC, and some Bach organ recordings as well as organ music by Cabanilles, Frescobaldi and Pachelbel). His Kuhnau btw is moderately interesting.

Not his trio sonatas?
I liked his Frescobaldi as well.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 09, 2021, 12:00:58 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 04, 2021, 07:18:18 PM
Not his trio sonatas?
I liked his Frescobaldi as well.

I have listened to both (and several others of his recordings) a couple of times even if is some years ago, but I don't recall being that impressed, rather I recall them as being somewhat bland. But maybe I should revisit them.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 09, 2021, 01:20:45 PM
Well I think there are some things to say about Butt's WTC 2 at least. His experiment seems to be about two things:

1 Fast pace, drive it forward, never linger or reflect. This is the opposite of cerebral, introspective, spiritual.

2. Dancing rhythm and foot tapping pulse.

I don't share Premont's thought that it's unimaginative or sounds like a run through. I think it's full of ideas, probably bold ones.   

I don't say it's a successful experiment by the way - I'm not sure how to make that judgement in fact.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 09, 2021, 02:36:18 PM
Well, my "unimaginative run through" and your "fast pace, drive it forward, never linger or reflect" aren't that different.

Your "Dancing rhythm and foot tapping pulse" reminds me of Glenn Gould, and I think there are some similarities here. So I shall change my "unimaginative" to monochrome.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 09, 2021, 07:33:11 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 09, 2021, 02:36:18 PM
Well, my "unimaginative run through" and your "fast pace, drive it forward, never linger or reflect" aren't that different.

Your "Dancing rhythm and foot tapping pulse" reminds me of Glenn Gould, and I think there are some similarities here. So I shall change my "unimaginative" to monochrome.

In fact I also thought of Gould and so listened to one or two tracks - Gould is stiff, and Butt isn't stiff at all.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on December 10, 2021, 02:20:06 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 09, 2021, 07:33:11 PM
In fact I also thought of Gould and so listened to one or two tracks - Gould is stiff, and Butt isn't stiff at all.

But this:

Quote from: Mandryka on December 09, 2021, 01:20:45 PM
Fast pace, drive it forward, never linger or reflect. This is the opposite of cerebral, introspective, spiritual.

doesn't leave much room for expressive rubato, and this is also how I recall Butt's WTC: devoid of reflection and expressive rubato.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on December 10, 2021, 06:07:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 09, 2021, 07:33:11 PM
In fact I also thought of Gould and so listened to one or two tracks - Gould is stiff, and Butt isn't stiff at all.
It's much better than Gould I think. There are some subtle moments, probably some really inspirational moments if I had the patience to listen carefully to it all. It's just mostly too brisk. I think he would be bold if he were also moving in the way he does it. I guess it's possible someone can make that magic work. Isn't Pienaar, on the piano, also pretty brisk and toe-tapping? I recall liking Pienaar so I have to go back and figure it out. Maybe Pienaar seems witty and uses his chosen instrument to better effect. But maybe I'm misremembering Pienaar. Or maybe he's not always so experimentally breakneck as Butt.   
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on December 10, 2021, 06:52:24 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 10, 2021, 02:20:06 AM
But this:

doesn't leave much room for expressive rubato, and this is also how I recall Butt's WTC: devoid of reflection and expressive rubato.

Well, I don't hear it quite like that.

https://www.youtube.com/v/7pnCcxODh0U&ab_channel=JohnButt-Topic

Here's Gould

https://www.youtube.com/v/rACX7pUZSjI&ab_channel=GlennGould-Topic
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 16, 2022, 08:57:28 AM
Well, I'm at the end of my Papa Bach collection perusal w/ the WTC works - currently own 6 versions shown below, 3 on piano & 3 on harpsichord (and like to have both instrument options) - now I've not updated my WTC recordings in years, so maybe some newer offerings? The overall number is fine, i.e. 6 versions are plenty for me but 'culling and adding' is a consideration -  ;D

In looking through the last dozen pages of this thread, I see plenty of newer recordings unfamiliar to me, so would be interested in comments - now, I did look at reviews on the ones owned (see attachment if interested) - these have all received excellent to outstanding write-ups, but would like to do some Spotify listening of other recent favorites here.  Thanks for any help.  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41jafgrgWtL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/511Xou26cDL.jpg)  (https://i.discogs.com/zCyHCTHQWnx2PIy9DregX9g79-rwkAl7Jd73tTJN83Y/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:587/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9SLTg1/ODMyOTAtMTQ2NDUy/MTM2Ny05Nzc3Lmpw/ZWc.jpeg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51zpOxOSLML._SX355_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Xvblycl1L._SS500_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/715yGSL2iJL._SS500_.jpg)  (https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/047/MI0001047240.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on February 16, 2022, 09:19:31 AM
These are all piano versions (while the image shows only one part all of these are complete in two volumes), I'll leave it to other to suggest ones on harpsichord.

Dina Ugorskaja (2016)

(https://i.postimg.cc/RF9c6fMW/Screen-Shot-2022-02-16-at-12-14-08-PM.png)

Zhu Xiao-Mei (2010)

(https://i.postimg.cc/3NQm5vq8/Screen-Shot-2022-02-16-at-12-16-31-PM.png)

Cedric Pescia (2018)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Kc7JcGDq/Screen-Shot-2022-02-16-at-12-18-02-PM.png)

I also like the András Schiff recording on ECM, but assume you have already heard it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 16, 2022, 09:35:33 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 16, 2022, 08:57:28 AM
Well, I'm at the end of my Papa Bach collection perusal w/ the WTC works - currently own 6 versions shown below, 3 on piano & 3 on harpsichord (and like to have both instrument options) - now I've not updated my WTC recordings in years, so maybe some newer offerings? The overall number is fine, i.e. 6 versions are plenty for me but 'culling and adding' is a consideration -  ;D

In looking through the last dozen pages of this thread, I see plenty of newer recordings unfamiliar to me, so would be interested in comments - now, I did look at reviews on the ones owned (see attachment if interested) - these have all received excellent to outstanding write-ups, but would like to do some Spotify listening of other recent favorites here.  Thanks for any help.  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41jafgrgWtL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/511Xou26cDL.jpg)  (https://i.discogs.com/zCyHCTHQWnx2PIy9DregX9g79-rwkAl7Jd73tTJN83Y/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:587/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9SLTg1/ODMyOTAtMTQ2NDUy/MTM2Ny05Nzc3Lmpw/ZWc.jpeg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51zpOxOSLML._SX355_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Xvblycl1L._SS500_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/715yGSL2iJL._SS500_.jpg)  (https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/047/MI0001047240.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Well I know you now, so I'm fairly confident that this would have your name written all over it, if it were complete - there's a Vol 1

https://www.linnrecords.com/recording-js-bach-well-tempered-consort-ii

Apart from that you know the answer as well as I do - Rübsam and Booth obvs.


Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 16, 2022, 10:31:11 AM
Quote from: San Antone on February 16, 2022, 09:19:31 AM
These are all piano versions (while the image shows only one part all of these are complete in two volumes), I'll leave it to other to suggest ones on harpsichord.

Dina Ugorskaja (2016)
Zhu Xiao-Mei (2010)
Cedric Pescia (2018)

(https://i.postimg.cc/RF9c6fMW/Screen-Shot-2022-02-16-at-12-14-08-PM.png) (https://i.postimg.cc/3NQm5vq8/Screen-Shot-2022-02-16-at-12-16-31-PM.png)  (https://i.postimg.cc/Kc7JcGDq/Screen-Shot-2022-02-16-at-12-18-02-PM.png)

I also like the András Schiff recording on ECM, but assume you have already heard it.

Hi San Antone - thanks for the 'piano' suggestions - looking at some reviews, I believe that Dina Ugorskaja & András Schiff interest me; both are on Spotify, so will take a listen - as you likely know, Ugoskaja died at aged 46 yrs in 2019 from cancer (only knew reading her bio today).  Dave :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 16, 2022, 10:46:40 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2022, 09:35:33 AM
Well I know you now, so I'm fairly confident that this would have your name written all over it, if it were complete - there's a Vol 1

https://www.linnrecords.com/recording-js-bach-well-tempered-consort-ii

Apart from that you know the answer as well as I do - Rübsam and Booth obvs.

Hi Mandryka - thanks for your prompt response - the Phantasm recording(s) certainly interests me (have a half dozen of their CDs already in my collection), so will preview them on Spotify (already setup a 4 album-recording playlist).  As to Rübsam & Booth, already added Rübsam's French Suites and have Booth's Goldberg Variations 'in the mail' - now he is selling the complete WTC for just £14 as shown below on his website - should have added that to my last order - again for those in the USA, shipping is free!  Dave :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-xCKjM52/0/5bc5dff8/O/Bach_WTC_Booth.png)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on February 16, 2022, 03:15:14 PM
I'm gonna still push George Lepauw whom I think could get some more love. It's a crowded field to be sure. And, as almost everyone seems to agree, Demus live is kicking around if you can find it. But I scratch my head as to why Lepauw doesn't seem to rate here, especially as, to me, Schiff is on the insipid conservative side of the isle. Just my one cent.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on February 16, 2022, 03:34:32 PM
Quote from: milk on February 16, 2022, 03:15:14 PM
Schiff is on the insipid conservative side of the isle.

::)

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on February 16, 2022, 04:05:00 PM
Quote from: San Antone on February 16, 2022, 03:34:32 PM
::)
Ok. Maybe insipid is going too far. Also, I don't mean to suggest that Ugorskaja isn't very good. It is good.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on February 16, 2022, 04:28:00 PM
Quote from: milk on February 16, 2022, 04:05:00 PM
Ok. Maybe insipid is going too far. Also, I don't mean to suggest that Ugorskaja isn't very good. It is good.

Because of your post I listened to about half of the George Lepauw WTC but found it indulgent for my taste - which I suppose is insipidly conventional.  ;)   8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on February 16, 2022, 05:03:11 PM
Quote from: San Antone on February 16, 2022, 04:28:00 PM
Because of your post I listened to about half of the George Lepauw WTC but found it indulgent for my taste - which I suppose is insipidly conventional.  ;)   8)
well, my reactions change. I'm not reliable. I might like Schiff better next time I play it. ETA and see? Listening to Lepauw this morning, I could totally see how he might get annoying. I bet you do or would like Pienaar. No fussiness and kind of "old style," in a good way. Like, crash and burn!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 16, 2022, 11:32:40 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 16, 2022, 08:57:28 AM
Well, I'm at the end of my Papa Bach collection perusal w/ the WTC works - currently own 6 versions shown below, 3 on piano & 3 on harpsichord (and like to have both instrument options) - now I've not updated my WTC recordings in years, so maybe some newer offerings? The overall number is fine, i.e. 6 versions are plenty for me but 'culling and adding' is a consideration -  ;D

In looking through the last dozen pages of this thread, I see plenty of newer recordings unfamiliar to me, so would be interested in comments - now, I did look at reviews on the ones owned (see attachment if interested) - these have all received excellent to outstanding write-ups, but would like to do some Spotify listening of other recent favorites here.  Thanks for any help.  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41jafgrgWtL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/511Xou26cDL.jpg)  (https://i.discogs.com/zCyHCTHQWnx2PIy9DregX9g79-rwkAl7Jd73tTJN83Y/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:587/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9SLTg1/ODMyOTAtMTQ2NDUy/MTM2Ny05Nzc3Lmpw/ZWc.jpeg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51zpOxOSLML._SX355_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Xvblycl1L._SS500_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/715yGSL2iJL._SS500_.jpg)  (https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/047/MI0001047240.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Have a listen to John Butt. Nobody here likes it, I don't like it, though I have tried to defend it slightly on this thread. What I can say is that it's rethought through enough to be worth hearing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on February 17, 2022, 01:33:05 AM
Well George Lepauw (piano) is a bit of a guilty pleasure for me - certainly very indulgent.  Similarly with Ugorskaja and she is more restrained, a safer recommendation for sure.  Papastefanou somewhere between those two.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91+dryj+oyL._SS500_.jpg)
Bach, WTC Bk 1 & 2 - Lepauw

Not at all complete but Anderszewski is superb for those BkII items he chooses to give us.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81TFXkiGc-L._SS500_.jpg)
Bach, WTC Bk 2 (excerpts) - Anderszewski

On hpschd - well there's always Rubsam.  I think Gilbert is still very good, straight as a die by more modern standards (my 1st set, dating from most of a lifetime ago).  I wanted to like Watchorn but didn't, found him stodgy.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on February 17, 2022, 02:45:03 AM
I feel like harpsichordists are consistently interesting and worth the listen. Not so with pianists. The big name HIP-sters almost all have something to say. Big name pianists can be good or really meh. I don't know why this is. Sorry, maybe I'm a broken record. I do keep listening to this on piano and sometimes liking it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2022, 03:56:51 AM
Quote from: milk on February 17, 2022, 02:45:03 AM
I feel like harpsichordists are consistently interesting and worth the listen. Not so with pianists. The big name HIP-sters almost all have something to say. Big name pianists can be good or really meh. I don't know why this is. Sorry, maybe I'm a broken record. I do keep listening to this on piano and sometimes liking it.

Did you ever try this one?

https://open.spotify.com/album/3C9rZao4ilpiUtNtQsAqR4
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on February 17, 2022, 04:10:33 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 16, 2022, 08:57:28 AM
Well, I'm at the end of my Papa Bach collection perusal w/ the WTC works - currently own 6 versions shown below, 3 on piano & 3 on harpsichord (and like to have both instrument options) - now I've not updated my WTC recordings in years, so maybe some newer offerings? The overall number is fine, i.e. 6 versions are plenty for me but 'culling and adding' is a consideration -  ;D

In looking through the last dozen pages of this thread, I see plenty of newer recordings unfamiliar to me, so would be interested in comments - now, I did look at reviews on the ones owned (see attachment if interested) - these have all received excellent to outstanding write-ups, but would like to do some Spotify listening of other recent favorites here.  Thanks for any help.  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41jafgrgWtL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/511Xou26cDL.jpg)  (https://i.discogs.com/zCyHCTHQWnx2PIy9DregX9g79-rwkAl7Jd73tTJN83Y/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:587/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9SLTg1/ODMyOTAtMTQ2NDUy/MTM2Ny05Nzc3Lmpw/ZWc.jpeg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51zpOxOSLML._SX355_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Xvblycl1L._SS500_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/715yGSL2iJL._SS500_.jpg)  (https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/047/MI0001047240.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Leonhardt's DHM is pretty much a reference level must have.

Aside from that personal favorites - Kenneth Weiss and Celine Frisch. Evgeni Koroliov, Andrei Vieru and I'll second (or third) Dina Ugorskaja. I also love Edwin Fischer but that is a big YMMV on this board :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on February 17, 2022, 05:16:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 17, 2022, 03:56:51 AM
Did you ever try this one?

https://open.spotify.com/album/3C9rZao4ilpiUtNtQsAqR4

An additional recommendation from me of this set (Hans-Georg Schäfer), which I also have praised before. His piano is tuned unequally to great effect. It is together with the set by Ivo Janssen the only two piano recordings of WTC, which I do stand in the long run. I don't know the live set by the late Demus (yet) though.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on February 17, 2022, 05:26:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 17, 2022, 03:56:51 AM
Did you ever try this one?

https://open.spotify.com/album/3C9rZao4ilpiUtNtQsAqR4

Does he have a recording of Book 1?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on February 17, 2022, 05:28:09 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 17, 2022, 03:56:51 AM
Did you ever try this one?

https://open.spotify.com/album/3C9rZao4ilpiUtNtQsAqR4
I've tried a few times with Schafer. I don't know why I can't warm to it. I know he's a favorite around here. Maybe it'll click with me some day. I do think that there must be something to it if it get's a thumbs up here. ETA: I do think Pienaar is quite good.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on February 17, 2022, 05:29:11 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 17, 2022, 05:16:23 AM
An additional recommendation from me of this set (Hans-Georg Schäfer), which I also have praised before.

Not for me.  His playing reminds of when I was in music school and would hear organ majors play the piano.  Horrible touch.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on February 17, 2022, 05:33:30 AM
Quote from: San Antone on February 17, 2022, 05:29:11 AM
Not for me.  His playing reminds of when I was in music school and would hear organ majors play the piano.  Horrible touch.

From brief listening he seems to really emphasize contrapuntal element. I can see that being polarizing.

edit: I have to thank amw for mentioning Ledbetter's book a while back, it's utterly fantastic.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61QB38LjegL.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2022, 05:52:49 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 17, 2022, 05:16:23 AM
An additional recommendation from me of this set (Hans-Georg Schäfer), which I also have praised before. His piano is tuned unequally to great effect. It is together with the set by Ivo Janssen the only two piano recordings of WTC, which I do stand in the long run. I don't know the live set by the late Demus (yet) though.

Let me know if you want the Demus. I think that Nikolayeva is also worth a listen. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on February 17, 2022, 06:37:16 AM
Quote from: hvbias on February 17, 2022, 05:26:23 AM
Does he have a recording of Book 1?

He has recorded both books.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on February 17, 2022, 06:41:06 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 17, 2022, 05:52:49 AM
Let me know if you want the Demus. I think that Nikolayeva is also worth a listen.

Thanks, but I have the Demus downloaded somewhere.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on February 17, 2022, 06:48:56 AM
Quote from: San Antone on February 17, 2022, 05:29:11 AM
Not for me.  His playing reminds of when I was in music school and would hear organ majors play the piano.  Horrible touch.

Quote from: hvbias on February 17, 2022, 05:33:30 AM
From brief listening he seems to really emphasize contrapuntal element. I can see that being polarizing.

That's why I like him. He has a sober touch without pianistic dynamical overdifferentiating of individual notes, and the displaying of the counterpoint is very clear. He certainly plays the WTC as baroque music.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on February 17, 2022, 06:55:37 AM
Quote from: milk on February 16, 2022, 03:15:14 PM
I'm gonna still push George Lepauw whom I think could get some more love. It's a crowded field to be sure. And, as almost everyone seems to agree, Demus live is kicking around if you can find it. But I scratch my head as to why Lepauw doesn't seem to rate here, especially as, to me,

I already commented Lepauw in post 1823 of this very thread:

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 30, 2021, 05:55:43 AM
Presto offers the first minute of all 96 pieces as clips, so I listened to these. It seems to be a thoughtful interpretation and maybe a bit overthought. First I liked his calm tempi, but as listening went forth I began to find the pace of many of the pieces severely dragging and depriving the music of its tension. Also his mannered agogoics felt unnatural in the long run. On the plus side is his modest dynamic excursions and a crystal clear part-playing and articulation and the fact, that he is able to play a real non-legato on the piano without without falling into the trap of playing Gouldian hyperstaccato. Lepauw's estetics seems to me clavichord related, and maybe his WTC might have made a better impact on a clavichord.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on February 17, 2022, 07:23:03 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 17, 2022, 06:48:56 AM
That's why I like him. He has a sober touch without pianistic dynamical overdifferentiating of individual notes, and the displaying of the counterpoint is very clear. He certainly plays the WTC as baroque music.

Why use a piano if you aren't going to play it as a piano?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on February 17, 2022, 07:39:17 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 17, 2022, 06:48:56 AM
That's why I like him. He has a sober touch without pianistic dynamical overdifferentiating of individual notes, and the displaying of the counterpoint is very clear. He certainly plays the WTC as baroque music.

Thanks, and for the info on Book 1. I'm looking forward to hearing more.

Quote from: San Antone on February 17, 2022, 07:23:03 AM
Why use a piano if you aren't going to play it as a piano?

It might be that someone prefers it interpreted like this but doesn't like the sound of harpsichord. When I was living in apartments and chose to only listen to headphones, I found the vast majority of harpsichord recordings very difficult to listen to as they are often mic'd too closely. I'm not even a recording quality snob, but when it is actually difficult to listen to the music via headphones I just opted to stay with piano.

Fortunately when I got speakers I came to really love harpsichord. Still, I can think of maybe half dozen recordings among hundreds where I think the mic'ing is perfect, ones like Bob van Asperen playing the French Suites immediately come to mind.

I personally prefer a wide variety of interpretations for whatever I'm in the mood to hear. From Koroliov's bit more angular vision, Edwin Fischer's beautiful legato to Leonhardt's sobering, humble view. Actually one of my favorites and sadly he only recorded a handful of pieces is a live recording from Wilhelm Backhaus where he does all sorts of strange things including playing with desyncopated hands.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2022, 07:40:12 AM
What a pleasure it's been this afternoon to revisit Rübsam! It's all the WTC I need at the moment.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2022, 07:52:14 AM
Quote from: San Antone on February 17, 2022, 07:23:03 AM
Why use a piano if you aren't going to play it as a piano?

That's a misleading thing to say, there's more dynamic variation than a clavichord, but it's certainly more restrained the Edwin Fischer in the same music, for example. As far as your comment about touch goes, it's not uniform, within a phrase there's often quite a bit of liaison. I especially appreciate the way he balances the voices. I think Schaefer's playing is subtle, and repays attentive listening,  so it probably eludes some people.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on February 17, 2022, 08:01:58 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 17, 2022, 07:52:14 AM
That's a misleading thing to say, there's more dynamic variation than a clavichord, but it's certainly more restrained the Edwin Fischer in the same music, for example. As far as your comment about touch goes, it's not uniform, within a phrase there's often quite a bit of liaison. I especially appreciate the way he balances the voices. I think Schaefer's playing is subtle, and repays attentive listening,  so it probably eludes some people.

;D  Yep it definitely eluded me.   8)   There are plenty of others whose playing does not elude me, probably because it isn't subtle.   8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on February 17, 2022, 11:17:23 AM
Quote from: San Antone on February 17, 2022, 07:23:03 AM
Why use a piano if you aren't going to play it as a piano?

I didn't say that a piano should be used for this music. On the contrary I prefer the harpsichord. So the solution is, that pianists learn to play harpsichord, if they want to play music written for harpsichord. This is just logical.

Pianists should restrain themselves to play music written for piano.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on February 17, 2022, 05:09:11 PM
Quote from: San Antone on February 17, 2022, 08:01:58 AM
;D  Yep it definitely eluded me.   8)   There are plenty of others whose playing does not elude me, probably because it isn't subtle.   8)
yeah, there's a fine line between subtle and boring. I find Demus to be subtle but still pianistic to a degree. I'll accept any kind of experiment on piano or any other instrument. But I don't know why Schafer is baroque except for him being non-pianistic. I don't hear interesting rubato. But, again, there's always another day to try again.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 23, 2022, 03:02:36 AM
I'm surprised at how fresh Kirkpatrick sounds to my ears. He uses a lot of the tools available to him on the clavichord. For 1969, if that's when it was, it sounds HIP. There's a lot of rubato here and also interesting dynamics appropriate for this instrument. It doesn't suffer from some of the "problems" one hears in recordings from the older generations.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 23, 2022, 03:07:41 AM
Quote from: milk on July 23, 2022, 03:02:36 AM
I'm surprised at how fresh Kirkpatrick sounds to my ears. He uses a lot of the tools available to him on the clavichord. For 1969, if that's when it was, it sounds HIP. There's a lot of rubato here and also interesting dynamics appropriate for this instrument. It doesn't suffer from some of the "problems" one hears in recordings from the older generations.
Yes. It's much less stiff than you would expect. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 23, 2022, 04:33:09 AM
Quote from: milk on July 23, 2022, 03:02:36 AM
I'm surprised at how fresh Kirkpatrick sounds to my ears. He uses a lot of the tools available to him on the clavichord. For 1969, if that's when it was, it sounds HIP. There's a lot of rubato here and also interesting dynamics appropriate for this instrument. It doesn't suffer from some of the "problems" one hears in recordings from the older generations.

I suppose you think of his clavichord recording of book II, in which case I agree with you. On the other hand I find his clavichord recording of book I stiff and rushed.

He has also recorded both books on harpsichord for DG - as far as I know some years later than the clavichord recordings in the days of LP, but these recordings are very hard to find today, and I have never seen them transferred to CD. I have only heard book II, which IMO was almost unbearably stiff and lifeless.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 23, 2022, 04:46:58 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 23, 2022, 04:33:09 AM
I suppose you think of his clavichord recording of book II, in which case I agree with you. On the other hand I find his clavichord recording of book I stiff and rushed.

He has also recorded both books on harpsichord for DG - as far as I know some years later than the clavichord recordings in the days of LP, but these recordings are very hard to find today, and I have never seen them transferred to CD. I have only heard book II, which IMO was almost unbearably stiff and lifeless.
Yes, I am listening to BKII today. That only. I think it's very good. Maybe I'll skip Bk I, I want to listen to other stuff anyway. I wish everybody would update their lists as the last decade has brought some good recordings on harpsichord, maybe less interesting ones on piano.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 23, 2022, 05:41:50 AM
Quick hits on WTCII:
Dina Ugorskaya is dark sometimes. Not bad. Maybe she gives in to temptation at times - to fiddle with dynamics. I guess I always think that about pianists. I mean I like her but she's not subtle. I like the darkness. I should have put all this in the past tense. I know she's deceased, sadly.
Listening to Andrew Rangell. He's not subtle either; he's even more extreme at times. He's extreme in many aspects of articulation. He does a lot to this music and I'm not sure what to think. Is it too much? My tastes keep evolving and I was just listening to his E minor prelude and fugue and thinking the prelude was kind of a hopped up mess. Though maybe his disjointed experimental style works out better in the fugue.
I actually want to like what he's doing. Maybe it would make for an interesting concert.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 23, 2022, 10:07:04 AM
Quote from: milk on July 23, 2022, 04:46:58 AM
Yes, I am listening to BKII today. That only. I think it's very good. Maybe I'll skip Bk I, I want to listen to other stuff anyway. I wish everybody would update their lists as the last decade has brought some good recordings on harpsichord, maybe less interesting ones on piano.

Can you get hold of Tuma's WTC2 - I just am curious about whether you'll think Kirkpatrick's is better. Rubato is a strange thing in my experience, what seems intrusive on one day seems natural on another.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 23, 2022, 10:44:36 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 23, 2022, 10:07:04 AM
Can you get hold of Tuma's WTC2 - I just am curious about whether you'll think Kirkpatrick's is better.

What do you think yourself? I prefer Tuma's more relaxed style.

Quote from: Mandryka
Rubato is a strange thing in my experience, what seems intrusive on one day seems natural on another.

Yes, often one doesn't know how one will react to some recording until one have heard it, even if one thinks one knows it well beforehand.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 23, 2022, 11:31:19 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 23, 2022, 10:44:36 AM
What do you think yourself? I prefer Tuma's more relaxed style.


I would need to listen to the Kirkpatrick again, but I can say that I had always found Tuma's rubato somehow pointless -- neither use nor ornament. Until about three weeks ago when I listened again and it all seemed very right and rather beautiful. So, go figure, as they say.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on July 23, 2022, 01:09:20 PM
Quote from: milk on July 23, 2022, 05:41:50 AM
Quick hits on WTCII:
Dina Ugorskaya is dark sometimes. Not bad. Maybe she gives in to temptation at times - to fiddle with dynamics. I guess I always think that about pianists. I mean I like her but she's not subtle. I like the darkness. I should have put all this in the past tense. I know she's deceased, sadly.

Yes that WTC overall comes off as having some darkness. I thought maybe I was being biased towards this knowing she had passed away at a young age, but I did some blind testing with several other sets that were new to me at the time and she near universally came out on top.

Quote
Listening to Andrew Rangell. He's not subtle either; he's even more extreme at times. He's extreme in many aspects of articulation. He does a lot to this music and I'm not sure what to think. Is it too much? My tastes keep evolving and I was just listening to his E minor prelude and fugue and thinking the prelude was kind of a hopped up mess. Though maybe his disjointed experimental style works out better in the fugue.
I actually want to like what he's doing. Maybe it would make for an interesting concert.

I didn't know Andrew Rangell recorded WTC. I posted either in the Bach on Piano or the Goldberg Variations thread that it was one of the most interesting Goldbergs I'd ever heard on piano, it's a wild interpretation and if I am remembering right he forgoes all repeats which also pleased me. His AoF was not interesting.

With so many praising Peter Hill I will give this a listen this week.

On rubato and WTC, I'm not sure if I'll ever get used to Ottavio Dantone :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 23, 2022, 01:58:56 PM
Quote from: hvbias on July 23, 2022, 01:09:20 PM
I didn't know Andrew Rangell recorded WTC. I posted either in the Bach on Piano or the Goldberg Variations thread that it was one of the most interesting Goldbergs I'd ever heard on piano, it's a wild interpretation and if I am remembering right he forgoes all repeats which also pleased me. His AoF was not interesting.

One doesn't need to hear much of his Bach to detect his style, which I find excentric (meaning strange) and contrieved. His articulation and particularly his accentuation is in these ears nothing but irritating and seems to contradict the music. i own a few of his late LvB sonatas, which I haven't listened to for years, but faintly I also here recall  something eccentric and contrieved. this is the reason why I haven't considered his AoF.

Quote from: hvbias
On rubato and WTC, I'm not sure if I'll ever get used to Ottavio Dantone :)

Dantone may be an acquired taste (Italian temper), while I probably never should acquire the taste for Rangell.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on July 23, 2022, 02:48:09 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 23, 2022, 01:58:56 PM
One doesn't need to hear much of his Bach to detect his style, which I find excentric (meaning strange) and contrieved. His articulation and particularly his accentuation is in these ears nothing but irritating and seems to contradict the music. i own a few of his late LvB sonatas, which I haven't listened to for years, but faintly I also here recall  something eccentric and contrieved. this is the reason why I haven't considered his AoF.

Dantone may be an acquired taste (Italian temper), while I probably never should acquire the taste for Rangell.

I left out one very important piece of information, I'm not all that fond of Goldberg Variations anymore ;D So to have it played with some more entertainment value was pleasing to me, also keeping it short sans repeats. It sounds like WTC is an easy skip. Goldbergs seem particularly monotonous on piano for some reason, people playing it completely straight on piano adds to the boredom it causes. I've felt this way for some time, seeing Busoni write it's not suited to audiences in 1910, makes me think it is even less suited to audiences (or me at least) in the 21st century.

On Goldbergs the three I heard most recently- Marcin Świątkiewicz, it sounds overly studied (for instance some strange pauses in places); or other times his ornamentation sounds natural but it can also sound like he is being quite conscious about it and it comes off as boxed in. Esfahani I suppose I was impressed that he doesn't sound relentless, but on repeat listen comes off as a bit superficial. I went back to Suzuki and I was again immediately reminded why I had this on my to buy list. Wonderful variations in tempo between pieces (plus a gorgeous opening Aria), flowing, nice light sounding instrument suited to Goldbergs, etc.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 23, 2022, 05:10:51 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 23, 2022, 01:58:56 PM
One doesn't need to hear much of his Bach to detect his style, which I find excentric (meaning strange) and contrieved. His articulation and particularly his accentuation is in these ears nothing but irritating and seems to contradict the music. i own a few of his late LvB sonatas, which I haven't listened to for years, but faintly I also here recall  something eccentric and contrieved. this is the reason why I haven't considered his AoF.
One thing I CAN say about it is that seems like hard work. I guess that's not good. He is present for the music but he's always working it. May be I'll feel that way now if I go back to Lepauw.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 24, 2022, 02:46:29 AM
Quote from: hvbias on July 23, 2022, 02:48:09 PM
Goldbergs seem particularly monotonous on piano for some reason, people playing it completely straight on piano adds to the boredom it causes.

Very true, but Rangell goes IMO much too far in the opposite direction.

Quote from: hvbias
On Goldbergs the three I heard most recently- Marcin Świątkiewicz, it sounds overly studied (for instance some strange pauses in places); or other times his ornamentation sounds natural but it can also sound like he is being quite conscious about it and it comes off as boxed in. Esfahani I suppose I was impressed that he doesn't sound relentless, but on repeat listen comes off as a bit superficial. I went back to Suzuki and I was again immediately reminded why I had this on my to buy list. Wonderful variations in tempo between pieces (plus a gorgeous opening Aria), flowing, nice light sounding instrument suited to Goldbergs, etc.

This is very close to my reactions to these three recordings.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 24, 2022, 02:53:51 AM
Quote from: milk on July 23, 2022, 05:10:51 PM
One thing I CAN say about it is that seems like hard work. I guess that's not good. He is present for the music but he's always working it. May be I'll feel that way now if I go back to Lepauw.

As I see it, a comparison between Rangell and Lepauw will invariably fall out in Lepauw's favor.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 24, 2022, 03:16:03 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 24, 2022, 02:53:51 AM
As I see it, a comparison between Rangell and Lepauw will invariably fall out in Lepauw's favor.
I hope so as I spoke up for him so much. I'm open to influence and Hill influenced me recently with regard to poise and subtlety. Hill seems very delicate and wise and mindful of Bach's deep well. Maybe Lepauw is a bit cheeky.
But I did like Lepauw a lot recently.
I'm going back to Pienaar and Janssen. I think Jannsen is often very good. Pienaar reminds me of some of the older generations sometimes. He can be breezy.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on July 24, 2022, 03:44:20 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 24, 2022, 02:46:29 AM
Very true, but Rangell goes IMO much too far in the opposite direction.

Certainly. I view this akin to Rübsam's lute harpsichord recordings of Bach; more like an avant-garde performance piece than anything resembling sanity. Writing up Rosen in AoF now, this is far more tasteful.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2022, 03:54:24 AM
Quote from: hvbias on July 24, 2022, 03:44:20 AM
Certainly. I view this akin to Rübsam's lute harpsichord recordings of Bach; more like an avant-garde performance piece than anything resembling sanity.

Entartete Musik
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2022, 04:00:34 AM
Actually I'm listening to Egarr's Goldbergs  now, that'll do me!

Someone I know who's more into these variations than I am tells me that Jean Rondeau's beats all comers, I haven't heard the recording but I heard him do it in recital, it seemed OK. I think I wrote something about it somewhere here and pissed someone off.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 24, 2022, 04:21:20 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 24, 2022, 04:00:34 AM
Actually I'm listening to Egarr's Goldbergs  now, that'll do me!

Someone I know who's more into these variations than I am tells me that Jean Rondeau's beats all comers, I haven't heard the recording but I heard him do it in recital, it seemed OK. I think I wrote something about it somewhere here and pissed someone off.
I'd like to find that comment  ;D. I really liked that recording when I listened to it last year.
Here's one I'm listening to for the first time and so far so good. His BK2 sets in F# minor and F# major go deep:

(https://e.snmc.io/i/600/s/9c39e59fdcfa20349d6c9f3be78eb0e5/6130652/vladimir-feltsman-the-well-tempered-clavier-Cover-Art.jpg)
Feltsman isn't bad but I'm again reminded of something about the piano. All the range of possibilities it affords, not only with dynamics but maybe also with dynamics-adjacent effects (I don't know, I'm not a pianist), gives the artist a very easy chance to muck things up. Feltsman uses all the tricks at his disposal. He's not as gaudy as some and he seems to get Bach and get counterpoint yet something tells me that his instincts as a pianist prevent him somehow from letting the counterpoint speak for itself. It's as if he so wants to make a greater narrative of his own. Maybe I'm crazy.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: aukhawk on July 24, 2022, 09:51:11 AM
Quote from: milk on July 24, 2022, 03:16:03 AM
I hope so as I spoke up for him so much. I'm open to influence and Hill influenced me recently with regard to poise and subtlety. Hill seems very delicate and wise and mindful of Bach's deep well. Maybe Lepauw is a bit cheeky.

It's a bit hard IMHO not to be influenced by:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61pCCWGfRML._SS500_.jpg)   versus   (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91+dryj+oyL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 24, 2022, 03:21:06 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 24, 2022, 09:51:11 AM
It's a bit hard IMHO not to be influenced by:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61pCCWGfRML._SS500_.jpg)   versus   (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91+dryj+oyL._SS500_.jpg)
Yes. Hill is a mature, sensitive, seasoned artist. I think beautiful.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 25, 2022, 06:41:07 AM
Tatiana Nikolayeva does some super annoying things sometimes but she's also soaring and majestic at other times.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on July 26, 2022, 11:24:30 PM
Quote from: "Harry" on July 26, 2022, 11:10:23 PM
I think I am going to buy more interpretations of "Das Wohltemperierte Clavier"  and am open for recommendations. Which sets do I really need, apart from the two I already have? :)

Which two do you already have? Moroney and Van Asperen? And perhaps Leonhardt somewhere in a complete edition?

If you don't know it, I would strongly recommend Glen Wilson (Teldec/Warner). 
He gets literally everything right, stylistically and technically, unbeaten in my book.

I also like Dantone and Rousset, but both are an acquired taste.  Dantone because of his unapologetic and dashing Italian approach. Rousset is idiosyncratic and brilliant, but uneven.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Harry on July 26, 2022, 11:27:51 PM
Quote from: Que on July 26, 2022, 11:24:30 PM
Which two do you already have? Moroney and Van Asperen? And perhaps Leonhardt somewhere in a complete edition?

If you don't know it, I would strongly recommend Glen Wilson (Teldec/Warner). 
He gets literally everything right, stylistically and technically, unbeaten in my book.

I also like Dantone and Rousset, but both are an acquired taste.  Dantone because of his unapologetic Italian approach. Rousset is idiosyncratic but brilliant, a bit uneven.

I could have Leonhardt in a complete edition, good reminder, will look for that one, and if not which version is recommendable?
Glen Wilson it is then, I trust your opinion in this, so its on the order list.
Dantone and Rousset I will listen on Qobuz, and decide if I like them enough or not.
Thank you Que, you brought me a step further in this ongoing journey.
And yes I have Moroney and Asperen.

Glen Wilson is not an easy to find set, so I will try to find this on Qobuz too!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on July 26, 2022, 11:46:42 PM
Quote from: "Harry" on July 26, 2022, 11:27:51 PM
I could have Leonhardt in a complete edition, good reminder, will look for that one, and if not which version is recommendable?
Glen Wilson it is then, I trust your opinion in this, so its on the order list.
Dantone and Rousset I will listen on Qobuz, and decide if I like them enough or not.
Thank you Que, you brought me a step further in this ongoing journey.
And yes I have Moroney and Asperen.

There are many more discussed in the WTC thread, often pretty recent issues.

In the stream of new issues, I haven't come accross one that really appealed to me enough to be added to my collection.
Though I guess I should point out amongst new comers Steven Devine (Resonus). In SOTA sound. So if you go exploring on Qobuz anyway, you might as well give him a listen.  :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Harry on July 26, 2022, 11:52:11 PM
Quote from: Que on July 26, 2022, 11:46:42 PM
There are many more discussed in the WTC thread, often pretty recent issues.

In the stream of new issues, I haven't come accross one that really appealed to me enough to be added to my collection.
Though I guess I should point out amongst new comers Steven Devine (Resonus). In SOTA sound. So if you go exploring on Qobuz anyway, you might as well give him a listen.  :)

On my list! Thanks.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 01:33:05 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on July 26, 2022, 11:27:51 PM
I could have Leonhardt in a complete edition, good reminder, will look for that one, and if not which version is recommendable?
Glen Wilson it is then, I trust your opinion in this, so its on the order list.
Dantone and Rousset I will listen on Qobuz, and decide if I like them enough or not.
Thank you Que, you brought me a step further in this ongoing journey.
And yes I have Moroney and Asperen.

Glen Wilson is not an easy to find set, so I will try to find this on Qobuz too!

What do you think of this one?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rJZxgq37PNQ
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Harry on July 27, 2022, 01:35:59 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 01:33:05 AM
What do you think of this one?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rJZxgq37PNQ

From what I hear, I think its a pretty fine proposal, well dive into this also. On my list!

The Ruckers Harpsichord sounds wonderful, and her pace is also spot on. Warm and very approachable.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 01:40:09 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on July 27, 2022, 01:35:59 AM
From what I hear, I think its a pretty fine proposal, well dive into this also. On my list!

The Ruckers Harpsichord sounds wonderful, and her pace is also spot on. Warm and very approachable.

Or this one?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=frANagdVX4Q
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Harry on July 27, 2022, 01:44:12 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 01:40:09 AM
Or this one?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=frANagdVX4Q

The Verlet is not available on Amazon!
And you are planning to tempt me, I will listen to the Egarr very soon. Keep them coming I'd say :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Traverso on July 27, 2022, 03:07:24 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on July 26, 2022, 11:27:51 PM
I could have Leonhardt in a complete edition, good reminder, will look for that one, and if not which version is recommendable?
Glen Wilson it is then, I trust your opinion in this, so its on the order list.
Dantone and Rousset I will listen on Qobuz, and decide if I like them enough or not.
Thank you Que, you brought me a step further in this ongoing journey.
And yes I have Moroney and Asperen.

Glen Wilson is not an easy to find set, so I will try to find this on Qobuz too!

The Glen Wilson is certainly a good recommendation,I have it as part of the Teldec 2000 edition. Rousset is quite quirky in my opinion but tastes differ.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 27, 2022, 03:19:31 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on July 26, 2022, 11:27:51 PM
I could have Leonhardt in a complete edition, good reminder, will look for that one, and if not which version is recommendable?

I second the recommendation of Glen Wilson, Ottavio Dantone and Steven Devine.

Others of special interest from the top of my head are Christine Shornsheim, Pieter-Jan Belder, Colin Booth, Masaaki Suzuki, Kenneth Weiss and Kenneth Gilbert. I don't know about Celine Frisch, which I haven't heard yet, despite having owned her set for several years. Christiane Jaccottet has made an unsensational but beautiful version (I think you own this too).

Daniel Chorzempa and Robert Levin are interesting because they use different instruments (harpsichord, clavichord, organ) for the different pieces. Both must be characterized as high-energy players.

Anneke Uittenbosch has made a very worthwhile recording of book II.

On clavichord I prefer Jaroslav Tuma's introvert version to Ralph Kirkpatrick's more extrovert.

Wolfgang Rübsam's version on lute-harpsichord is - if any - an acquired taste, but he may be rewarding if one does the effort.

There are five versions on organ, none of them "perfect". My choice here is Louis Thiry.

I'm not much into piano renderings and own only two (Hans Georg Schäfer and Ivo Janssen) which more than fulfill my need for such a thing.

These posts about WTC rather belong to the WTC thread. Maybe we should ask Que to move them to that thread.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on July 27, 2022, 03:34:05 AM
Quote from: Traverso on July 27, 2022, 03:07:24 AM
Rousset is quite quirky in my opinion but tastes differ.

He is definitely quirky! :)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Traverso on July 27, 2022, 03:42:42 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 27, 2022, 03:19:31 AM
I seconde the recommendation of Glen Wilson, Ottavio Dantone and Steven Devine.

Others of special interest from the top of my head are Christine Shornsheim, Pieter-Jan Belder, Colin Booth, Masaaki Suzuki, Kenneth Weiss and Kenneth Gilbert. i don't know about Celine Frisch, which I haven't heard yet, despite having owned her set for several years. Christiane Jaccottet has made an unsensational but beautiful version (I think you own this too).

David Chorzempa and Robert Levin are interesting because they use different instruments (harpsichord, clavichord, organ) for the different pieces. Both must be characterized as high-energy players.

Anneke Uittenbosch has made a very worthwhile recording of book II.

On clavichord I prefer Jaroslav Tuma's introvert version to Ralph Kirkpatrick's more extrovert.

Wolfgang Rübsam's version on lute-harpsichord is - if any - an acquired taste, but he may be rewarding if one does the effort.

There are five versions on organ, none of them "perfect". My choice here is Louis Thiry.

I'm not much into piano renderings and own only two (Hans Georg Schäfer and Ivo Janssen) which more than fulfill my need for such a thing.

These posts about WTC rather belong to the WTC thread. Maybe we should ask Que to move them to that thread.

And don't forget the recording with a young Leon Berben on Brilliant  ! 

(https://i.postimg.cc/rF5T4KPC/550x548.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 27, 2022, 03:50:45 AM
Quote from: Que on July 27, 2022, 03:34:05 AM
He is definitely quirky! :)

+1
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Harry on July 27, 2022, 03:50:54 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 27, 2022, 03:19:31 AM
I seconde the recommendation of Glen Wilson, Ottavio Dantone and Steven Devine.

Others of special interest from the top of my head are Christine Shornsheim, Pieter-Jan Belder, Colin Booth, Masaaki Suzuki, Kenneth Weiss and Kenneth Gilbert. i don't know about Celine Frisch, which I haven't heard yet, despite having owned her set for several years. Christiane Jaccottet has made an unsensational but beautiful version (I think you own this too).

David Chorzempa and Robert Levin are interesting because they use different instruments (harpsichord, clavichord, organ) for the different pieces. Both must be characterized as high-energy players.

Anneke Uittenbosch has made a very worthwhile recording of book II.

On clavichord I prefer Jaroslav Tuma's introvert version to Ralph Kirkpatrick's more extrovert.

Wolfgang Rübsam's version on lute-harpsichord is - if any - an acquired taste, but he may be rewarding if one does the effort.

There are five versions on organ, none of them "perfect". My choice here is Louis Thiry.

I'm not much into piano renderings and own only two (Hans Georg Schäfer and Ivo Janssen) which more than fulfill my need for such a thing.

These posts about WTC rather belong to the WTC thread. Maybe we should ask Que to move them to that thread.

Thanks Poul, with this list I am going into listening period.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 27, 2022, 03:56:26 AM
Quote from: Traverso on July 27, 2022, 03:42:42 AM
And don't forget the recording with a young Leon Berben on Brilliant  ! 

(https://i.postimg.cc/rF5T4KPC/550x548.jpg)

I "forgot" Berben deliberately. I don't like his hectic, pretentious style (fortunately this has changed since then). But the worst thing about it is, that several of the P&F's in modes with many accidentals contain so many wrong notes as to make listening unbearable. Listen eg. to the G-sharp minor fugue from book II.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on July 27, 2022, 04:08:35 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 27, 2022, 03:56:26 AM
I "forgot" Berben deliberately. I don't like his hectic, pretentious style (fortunately this has changed since then). But the worst thing about it is, that several of the P&F's in modes with many accidentals contain so many wrong notes as to make listening unbearable. Listen eg. to the G-sharp minor fugue from book II.

The young Berben is brilliant at times but overall a mess... 8)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Harry on July 27, 2022, 04:25:31 AM
Quote from: Que on July 27, 2022, 04:08:35 AM
The young Berben is brilliant at times but overall a mess... 8)

+1. It was the reason I discarded this performance.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 06:15:56 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 27, 2022, 03:19:31 AM
I second the recommendation of Glen Wilson, Ottavio Dantone and Steven Devine.

Others of special interest from the top of my head are Christine Shornsheim, Pieter-Jan Belder, Colin Booth, Masaaki Suzuki, Kenneth Weiss and Kenneth Gilbert. I don't know about Celine Frisch, which I haven't heard yet, despite having owned her set for several years. Christiane Jaccottet has made an unsensational but beautiful version (I think you own this too).

Daniel Chorzempa and Robert Levin are interesting because they use different instruments (harpsichord, clavichord, organ) for the different pieces. Both must be characterized as high-energy players.

Anneke Uittenbosch has made a very worthwhile recording of book II.

On clavichord I prefer Jaroslav Tuma's introvert version to Ralph Kirkpatrick's more extrovert.

Wolfgang Rübsam's version on lute-harpsichord is - if any - an acquired taste, but he may be rewarding if one does the effort.

There are five versions on organ, none of them "perfect". My choice here is Louis Thiry.

I'm not much into piano renderings and own only two (Hans Georg Schäfer and Ivo Janssen) which more than fulfill my need for such a thing.

These posts about WTC rather belong to the WTC thread. Maybe we should ask Que to move them to that thread.

Yes, Harry should hear Suzuki.

I'm listening to Egarr play WTC 2 now for the first time in a long time and something which is probably obvious to everyone has just become clear to me: the purpose of rubato of various kinds, tempo and rhythm, is partly (mainly?) to break up the music into small articulations - some sort of presuppositions à la Harnoncourt driving this thinking presumably (rhetorical macro structure implies speech like micro structure - you just have to say it to see how dubious it is! There's not much scholarship in English about this.)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 27, 2022, 06:41:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 06:15:56 AM
... the purpose of rubato of various kinds, tempo and rhythm, is partly (mainly?) to break up the music into small articulations - some sort of presuppositions à la Harnoncourt driving this thinking presumably (rhetorical macro structure implies speech like micro structure - you just have to say it to see how dubious it is! There's not much scholarship in English about this.)

Concerning keyboard playing I associate more to Leonhardt than to Harnoncourt, and I tend to say that Leonhardt was the first to introduce true articulation-dependent agogic rubato in his playing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 07:32:14 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 27, 2022, 06:41:02 AM
Concerning keyboard playing I associate more to Leonhardt than to Harnoncourt, and I tend to say that Leonhardt was the first to introduce true articulation-dependent agogic rubato in his playing.

Am I right about the logic? That (late?)baroque aesthetics favoured a Quintilian type rhetorical structure on music at the macro level and hence at the micro level baroque music should be articulated like speech? I mean, if so that hence needs a fair bit of justification.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 27, 2022, 08:06:51 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 07:32:14 AM
Am I right about the logic? That (late?)baroque aesthetics favoured a Quintilian type rhetorical structure on music at the macro level and hence at the micro level baroque music should be articulated like speech? I mean, if so that hence needs a fair bit of justification.

Why the need to justify the "hence"? A successful speech must be well planned but also well articulated in order to be understandable and also to facilitate the expression of the different affects which are included in the speech.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 27, 2022, 08:33:32 AM
This is good but no bk2 unfortunately.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61TWRVLPOVL._SY445_SX342_QL70_ML2_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 09:04:01 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 27, 2022, 08:06:51 AM
Why the need to justify the "hence"? A successful speech must be well planned but also well articulated in order to be understandable and also to facilitate the expression of the different affects which are included in the speech.

Where affect A is expressed for duration D, it is good that it maps to a phrase of duration D. The problem is that Egarr and others break up the music into units which aren't associated with distinct affects -- so a phrase changes, but not because a new affect is being expressed.

So, let's say a prelude in WTC in Egarr's reading is made up of a temporally contiguous sequence phrases

P1, P2 . . . . Pn

it isn't the case that it can be read as a temporally contiguous sequence of expressed affects

A1, A2 . . . . An

I am sure this isn't just a problem for Egarr!

I also think readability of the phrases in terms of affects is really a big problem. There's no sufficiently detailed translation manual from musical effects to affects -- and as far as I know there's no reason to think there ever was one.



(What do Kooiman and Weinberger say?  >:D )

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 27, 2022, 10:13:50 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 09:04:01 AM
Where affect A is expressed for duration D, it is good that it maps to a phrase of duration D. The problem is that Egarr and others break up the music into units which aren't associated with distinct affects -- so a phrase changes, but not because a new affect is being expressed.

So, let's say a prelude in WTC in Egarr's reading is made up of a temporally contiguous sequence phrases

P1, P2 . . . . Pn

it isn't the case that it can be read as a temporally contiguous sequence of expressed affects

A1, A2 . . . . An

I am sure this isn't just a problem for Egarr!

I also think readability of the phrases in terms of affects is really a big problem. There's no sufficiently detailed translation manual from musical effects to affects -- and as far as I know there's no reason to think there ever was one.



(What do Kooiman and Weinberger say?  >:D )

Generally in Bach's harpsichord music a given movement is only meant to express one and the same affect, but the affects of different movements may be contrasting eg. a change of affect from prelude to fugue. More difficult would be to put words on these affects, but we are able to hear them in the music.

The sonata form is precisely built upon the contrast of musical affects eg. a cheeky self-affirming main theme and a more lyrical side theme. But Bach isn't Beethoven and baroque isn't Vienna classical.

Albert Schweitzer was to my knowledge the first in our time to write about the relation between musical motives and affects in his book about Bach, particularly doing an analysis of small musical units in the orchestral parts to Bach's cantatas.

Kooiman and Weinberger do not address these issues. They discuss organ technical problems such as registration, fingering and the performance of embellishments.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 10:29:41 AM
Let's go back to basics and ask the fundamental questions.

Here's Egarr in 870/prelude.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUu8VySlGPk&ab_channel=RichardEgarr-Topic


You see he's broken it up into short phrases.

Why?

Egarr is a good one to take because the articulation is so incredibly clear, partly because he takes his time.


For contrast, here's Edwin Fischer in the same music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ty7qoFFdoE&ab_channel=EdwinFischer-Topic

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 27, 2022, 11:27:29 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 10:29:41 AM
Let's go back to basics and ask the fundamental questions.

Here's Egarr in 870/prelude.


You see he's broken it up into short phrases.

Why?

Because the music is made up of small musical cells. He wants to display this, and I on my part is convinced that the prelude should be played in this way. Long legato lines are a later phenomenon.

But I also think he displays the affect of the music wrong (well, of course I may be wrong), because in these ears (and eyes) the prelude expresses festive joy, whereas Egarr seems to think that it expresses resignation .

Quote from: Mandryka
For contrast, here's Edwin Fischer in the same music

I would like a more refined and distinctly articulated touch. And his fiddling with the dynamics is besides the point. And which affect does he display?       
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on July 27, 2022, 11:32:13 AM
I love the sound of Egarr's instrument.  But I don't hear what you describe, i.e. "he's broken it up into short phrases."  What I hear is a deliberate rubato basically in line with the musical phraseology as Bach wrote it.  However, his deliberate rubato begins to sound somewhat turgid after 3.5 minutes.

The Fischer, OTOH, is a bit too straight-forward for my taste, plus on piano it lacks the aural profile that Egarr's beautiful harpsichord provides.

For me, my ideal lies somewhere in between these two approaches, although much closer to Egarr than Fischer.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: MusicTurner on July 27, 2022, 11:36:57 AM
Fischer's is probably among the most sketchy of piano versions; I culled it, not wanting a really large collection of that work, and finding it too sketchy, though others may appreciate some details there.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 27, 2022, 11:41:19 AM
Quote from: San Antone on July 27, 2022, 11:32:13 AM
I love the sound of Egarr's instrument.  But I don't hear what you describe, i.e. "he's broken it up into short phrases."  What I hear is a deliberate rubato basically in line with the musical phraseology as Bach wrote it.  However, his deliberate rubato begins to sound somewhat turgid after 3.5 minutes.
Egarr's retoric rubato is intimately coordinated with his articulation, so much that one has to listen very close to perceive it.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 11:41:50 AM
Thanks for getting involved in this interesting question San Antone.

I think that there is more than one way of articulating what Bach wrote, and I also think that Fischer hears longer phrases in the music than Egarr. There are more notes in each "bow stroke" as it were.  Both seem to me prima facie valid approaches, the question I have is this: why did the Amsterdam HIP discourse tend to favour the short phrase view?

My suggestion is that it's just bad logic. Let's grant for the moment that some baroque music has the large scale structure of a Quintilian type well made speech. It doesn't follow that all baroque music, or indeed any baroque music, has the microstructure of spoken rather than sung language.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 27, 2022, 11:50:00 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 11:41:50 AM
Thanks for getting involved in this interesting question San Antone.

I think that there is more than one way of articulating what Bach wrote, and I also think that Fischer hears longer phrases in the music than Egarr. Both seem to me valid approaches, the question I have is this: why did the Amsterdam HIP discourse tend to favour the short phrase view?

My suggestion is that it's just bad logic. Let's grant for the moment that some baroque music has the large scale structure of a Quintilian type well made speech. It doesn't follow that all baroque music, or indeed any baroque music, has the microstructure of spoken rather than sung language.

But the microstructure of sung language doesn't differ that much from spoken languge. Consonants - even sung - are always articulated separately, and vowels may involve one, two or three and seldom four notes (excepted is of course vocalizing but this is rare) which are tied together like in standard HIP articulation.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 12:02:36 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 27, 2022, 11:50:00 AM
But the microstructure of sung language doesn't differ that much from spoken languge. Consonants - even sung - are always articulated separately, and vowels may involve one, two or three and seldom four notes (excepted is of course vocalizing but this is rare) which are tied together like in standard HIP articulation.

Ah now, what is cantabile? Is it just a question of liaison between notes? Or is it a question of phrasing?

Allermeisten aber eine cantable Art im Spielen zu erlangen.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 27, 2022, 12:36:34 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 12:02:36 PM
Ah now, what is cantabile? Is it just a question of liaison between notes? Or is it a question of phrasing?

Allermeisten aber eine cantable Art im Spielen zu erlangen.

"Cantabile" includes both articulation and phrasing.

Articulation is the touch and how long you make the notes, how you tie them and how you accent them (if accenting is possible).

Phrasing is a more general concept eg. how you connect the words in a verse line.

When Bach in the preface to the Inventions writes "cantabile" I think he meant "like song" and not "like speach", so Harnoncourt's "like speach" seems far over the point. I think Leonhardt got it better as displayed by his recordings of the inventions and Bach's keyboard music in general.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 12:45:11 PM
Will think about it tomorrow - I'm enjoying Egarr too much now. Listen to this amazing fugue!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym7cL5sznrE
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on July 27, 2022, 01:28:57 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 27, 2022, 12:36:34 PM
When Bach in the preface to the Inventions writes "cantabile" I think he meant "like song" and not "like speach",

I believe it was CPE Bach who wrote that his father thought that his music should be played cantabile, or with a quality of singing, vocalistic, as much as possible.  But considering the limitations of the harpsichord's ability to play dynamics, this has always caused confusion on my part.

Legato, instead of staccato, would make sense, as well as connecting the phrases as if sung - but some other manner would need to be used in place of a purely vocalistic use of dynamics.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 27, 2022, 02:10:51 PM
Quote from: San Antone on July 27, 2022, 01:28:57 PM
I believe it was CPE Bach who wrote that his father thought that his music should be played cantabile, or with a quality of singing, vocalistic, as much as possible.  But considering the limitations of the harpsichord's ability to play dynamics, this has always caused confusion on my part.

Legato, instead of staccato, would make sense, as well as connecting the phrases as if sung - but some other manner would need to be used in place of a purely vocalistic use of dynamics.

As I argued above "cantabile" doesn't mean ""legato" but "like song". We don't sing in long stretches of legato because each consonant is articulated, which means that it's preceded by a micro-pause like when you tongue notes on a wind instrument or change the direction of the stroke on a bowed string instrument. A harpsichord is very capable of imitating this, and this touch was probably standard harpsichord-touch in the late baroque, spoken about as  "ordentlisches Fortgehen".
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on July 27, 2022, 03:23:57 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 27, 2022, 02:10:51 PM
As I argued above "cantabile" doesn't mean ""legato" but "like song". We don't sing in long stretches of legato because each consonant is articulated, which means that it's preceded by a micro-pause like when you tongue notes on a wind instrument or change the direction of the stroke on a bowed string instrument. A harpsichord is very capable of imitating this, and this touch was probably standard harpsichord-touch in the late baroque, spoken about as  "ordentlisches Fortgehen".

However, singing is often legato, and melismatic when several notes will occur under one syllable.  You also did not address one point of confusion over Bach's use of the term cantabile and a harpsichord's inability to fully mimic singing because of its lack of dynamics.  Singing is breath powered and as such employs infinite gradations of volume and dynamics.

I believe that Bach was alluding to a quality of playing his music which would be against a dry, pedantic or static quality.  He wished to emphasize a cantabile quality, as much as possible - however a harpsichordist could achieve that manner of playing.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 27, 2022, 09:31:52 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 27, 2022, 11:41:50 AM
Thanks for getting involved in this interesting question San Antone.

I think that there is more than one way of articulating what Bach wrote, and I also think that Fischer hears longer phrases in the music than Egarr. There are more notes in each "bow stroke" as it were.  Both seem to me prima facie valid approaches, the question I have is this: why did the Amsterdam HIP discourse tend to favour the short phrase view?

My suggestion is that it's just bad logic. Let's grant for the moment that some baroque music has the large scale structure of a Quintilian type well made speech. It doesn't follow that all baroque music, or indeed any baroque music, has the microstructure of spoken rather than sung language.
Who else breaks it up like that? I hear a lot of interesting approaches, interesting for different reasons - especially on harpsichord. Dantone is half way there I guess. It seems like a lot of artist do play this prelude as a lightening bolt from god or a shock of the apocalypse. That's on the pluck. It doesn't seem like the hammered thing, piano, can do that. Even Schafer plays much longer lines, if I'm understanding what these technical terms mean and maybe not. Phrases? I'm getting to like Schafer more. But Egarr seems to me an extreme case to point to. * strangely, Feinberg and Hill seem to my ears to have something in common. I don't know what it is.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 27, 2022, 10:20:24 PM
Quote from: San Antone on July 27, 2022, 03:23:57 PM
However, singing is often legato, and melismatic when several notes will occur under one syllable.

In Bach's sacred music the most common occurrence is one syllable pr note. Sometimes there are two or a few more notes pr syllable, and then the notes should of course be tied - articulated legato. There are many parallels in his instrumental music to this, when he puts a tie over a few (usually two to four) notes. Long melismatic episodes with several notes on one syllable are less frequent and mostly work as a kind of ornamentation.

Quote from: San Antone
You also did not address one point of confusion over Bach's use of the term cantabile and a harpsichord's inability to fully mimic singing because of its lack of dynamics.  Singing is breath powered and as such employs infinite gradations of volume and dynamics.

There is no confusion here, since the harpsichord's ability to grade dynamics is limited, and for that reason Bach of course didn't include dynamic variation in his concept of cantabile when it's about harpsichord music. To some extent dynamic variation is possible on a clavichord and the concept cantabile for this instrument therefore includes some dynamic variation but of course not the monstrous dynamic variation a modern piano is capable of.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 27, 2022, 10:25:47 PM
Quote from: milk on July 27, 2022, 09:31:52 PM
Even Schafer plays much longer lines, if I'm understanding what these technical terms mean and maybe not. Phrases?

Yes, I suppose you mean phrases.

I haven't heard Feinberg, but is the common denominator of Hill and Feinberg their detailed working out of the individual voices?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 28, 2022, 03:32:00 AM
Opinions please, gentlemen, about Landowska's.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 28, 2022, 04:34:48 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 28, 2022, 03:32:00 AM
Opinions please, gentlemen, about Landowska's.
Surprisingly weird.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 28, 2022, 05:30:12 AM
Quote from: milk on July 28, 2022, 04:34:48 AM
Surprisingly weird.

+1

A period instrument and modern recorded sound might on the other hand have made miracles, at least relatively - we don't know.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 28, 2022, 05:44:13 AM
Some of it is indeed very strange at the level of interpretation.  Her other recordings of baroque music sound much more conventional.

Someone said to me yesterday that she only recorded one prelude or fugue a week, not in order, but according to some plan of her own making. Some of them were studio recordings, some made in her home.

For what it's worth, in 1959 she recorded some Haydn on piano, and that sounds also weird. But the notes she made for the LP show, I would say, independence, intelligence and sensitivity, a genuine interest in the music and in performing the music authentically. What I'm saying is, she hadn't gone gaga.


Quote from: (: premont :) on July 28, 2022, 05:30:12 AM
+1

A period instrument and modern recorded sound might on the other hand have made miracles, at least relatively - we don't know.

I think even on a Ruckers it would sound weird.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFawJxkZW3k&ab_channel=WandaLandowska-Topic

She must have been aware of what Edwin Fischer and Walter Gieseking had made of it, so it was her considered decision to go a very different way.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 28, 2022, 06:43:16 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 28, 2022, 05:44:13 AM

I think even on a Ruckers it would sound weird.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFawJxkZW3k&ab_channel=WandaLandowska-Topic

Do you mean the long legato lines?

Have you heard the WTC recording by Malcolm Hamilton (Everest 1960es)? Played on a large Wittmeyer harpsichord with 16' and as to interpretation heavily inspired by Landowska's approach. Yes, with the ears of today it sounds a bit weird, but not that weird - maybe reminding a bit of Watchorn (have not made a direct comparison, though).
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 28, 2022, 08:05:15 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 28, 2022, 06:43:16 AM
Do you mean the long legato lines?

Have you heard the WTC recording by Malcolm Hamilton (Everest 1960es)? Played on a large Wittmeyer harpsichord with 16' and as to interpretation heavily inspired by Landowska's approach. Yes, with the ears of today it sounds a bit weird, but not that weird - maybe reminding a bit of Watchorn (have not made a direct comparison, though).

I think the thing I find most disconcerting is the way she changes speed, it feels very unnatural to me, but it could be a question of habituation. You can hear an example about a minute in to the 870 prelude, and then at about 2;26.  I will listen to the Hamilton on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFawJxkZW3k&ab_channel=WandaLandowska-Topic
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on July 28, 2022, 08:26:27 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 28, 2022, 08:05:15 AM
I think the thing I find most disconcerting is the way she changes speed, it feels very unnatural to me, but it could be a question of habituation. You can hear an example about a minute in to the 870 prelude, and then at about 2;26.  I will listen to the Hamilton on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFawJxkZW3k&ab_channel=WandaLandowska-Topic

It's only a short-lasting rubato, and she resumes the original pace shortly afterwards.
But I agree with you that it seems unnatural.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 28, 2022, 02:54:21 PM
Quote from: San Antone on July 27, 2022, 01:28:57 PM
I believe it was CPE Bach who wrote that his father thought that his music should be played cantabile, or with a quality of singing, vocalistic, as much as possible.  But considering the limitations of the harpsichord's ability to play dynamics, this has always caused confusion on my part.

Legato, instead of staccato, would make sense, as well as connecting the phrases as if sung - but some other manner would need to be used in place of a purely vocalistic use of dynamics.
Sometimes Tureck uses extreme staccato. Why? It's certainly interesting, but I have no idea if it corresponds to anything Bach is marking in the score. When she does this, I wonder why she bothers to apply dynamics at all because she does and when she does it's overwhelming. Short of dynamics, the effect is interesting because with one hand or one melodic line in extreme staccato, any variance with the other hand can produce very strange effects, articulation, I guess. Is this meant to be this way? Is there a design to this? Does any harpsichordist do this? Maybe it's the dynamic effect that make it so apparent?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 28, 2022, 06:47:58 PM
Quote from: milk on July 28, 2022, 02:54:21 PM
Sometimes Tureck uses extreme staccato. Why? It's certainly interesting, but I have no idea if it corresponds to anything Bach is marking in the score. When she does this, I wonder why she bothers to apply dynamics at all because she does and when she does it's overwhelming. Short of dynamics, the effect is interesting because with one hand or one melodic line in extreme staccato, any variance with the other hand can produce very strange effects, articulation, I guess. Is this meant to be this way? Is there a design to this? Does any harpsichordist do this? Maybe it's the dynamic effect that make it so apparent?

Well an orator uses dynamic changes to bring the meaning of his speech. And singers use dynamic changes to bring out the meaning of their song. And an instrumentalist may use a dynamic change to bring out the entry of a theme, or to highlight an important harmonic change.

I guess one good thing to to would be to see where and why Bach marked dynamic change in his music and then apply the same logic to his scores where the dynamic changes are not stated explicitly.  But obviously that's a big job.

Post some examples of Tureck's dynamic changes - gradual, terraced and note level, prelude and fugue -  and maybe we'll see if we can understand why she was doing them.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 28, 2022, 07:18:00 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 28, 2022, 06:47:58 PM
Well an orator uses dynamic changes to bring the meaning of his speech. And singers use dynamic changes to bring out the meaning of their song. And an instrumentalist may use a dynamic change to bring out the entry of a theme, or to highlight an important harmonic change.

I guess one good thing to to would be to see where and why Bach marked dynamic change in his music and then apply the same logic to his scores where the dynamic changes are not stated explicitly.  But obviously that's a big job.

Post some examples of Tureck's dynamic changes - gradual, terraced and note level, prelude and fugue -  and maybe we'll see if we can understand why she was doing them.
Just notice what odd things she does with staccato and dynamics in the prelude. Can you articulate this way, minus the dynamics, on the harpsichord? Or is it the dynamics that's making this effect? I'm not sure anyone does anything like it even on piano. https://youtu.be/hyLIskCwD-k
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 28, 2022, 11:30:02 PM
Quote from: milk on July 28, 2022, 07:18:00 PM
Just notice what odd things she does with staccato and dynamics in the prelude. Can you articulate this way, minus the dynamics, on the harpsichord? Or is it the dynamics that's making this effect? I'm not sure anyone does anything like it even on piano. https://youtu.be/hyLIskCwD-k

The staccato is an experiment at producing a clear direct quasi-mechanical sound in imitation of a harpsichord. See if you can find a lute stop being used somewhere - e.g. Leonhardt at the start of  872
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 29, 2022, 12:55:38 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 28, 2022, 11:30:02 PM
The staccato is an experiment at producing a clear direct quasi-mechanical sound in imitation of a harpsichord. See if you can find a lute stop being used somewhere - e.g. Leonhardt at the start of  872
So, in that case, it would be both hands or lines of counterpoint? It seems to me that she does staccato on one hand while sometimes adding different articulation via touch on the other - not necessarily dynamics but including that. I mean lute stop applies for o the whole instrument, not only one - how do I say? - one register? Or one manual?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 29, 2022, 01:11:25 AM
Quote from: milk on July 29, 2022, 12:55:38 AM
So, in that case, it would be both hands or lines of counterpoint? It seems to me that she does staccato on one hand while sometimes adding different articulation via touch on the other - not necessarily dynamics but including that. I mean lute stop applies for o the whole instrument, not only one - how do I say? - one register? Or one manual?

I think the lute stop only effects one manual on a two manual harpsichord.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 29, 2022, 01:19:58 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 29, 2022, 01:11:25 AM
I think the lute stop only effects one manual on a two manual harpsichord.
Interesting. I wonder then who has used it on one hand in this way...your earlier discussion makes me wonder if instruments and/or choruses or voices combine to this effect in Bach's choral music.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 29, 2022, 01:21:11 AM
Re dynamics, a hesitation before a note can attract attention and even produce the illusion of dynamic variation. On a piano, you can just play louder. So the question is: if you're playing baroque music on a piano and you wish to attract attention to a note or short phrase, is it better to avoid piano techniques? I can't see offhand why anyone should reply no, and insist that the pianist create an illusion of dynamic variation with a slight pause rather than use the more direct means.

Terraced dynamics is possible on old instruments by, for example, coupling manuals together.


Gradual dynamic change is another thing. 
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 29, 2022, 01:25:46 AM
Quote from: milk on July 29, 2022, 01:19:58 AM
Interesting. I wonder then who has used it on one hand in this way...your earlier discussion makes me wonder if instruments and/or choruses or voices combine to this effect in Bach's choral music.

I don't know, something will turn up. Have you heard claviorganum?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NkoOclYkJQ&t=52s&ab_channel=GhislainGourvennec
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 29, 2022, 01:30:34 AM
Quote from: milk on July 29, 2022, 01:19:58 AM
Interesting. I wonder then who has used it on one hand in this way...your earlier discussion makes me wonder if instruments and/or choruses or voices combine to this effect in Bach's choral music.

Here -- listen to this gorgeous harpsichord

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw8iYtccRnQ&t=190s&ab_channel=JohannesKeller
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 29, 2022, 01:45:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 29, 2022, 01:25:46 AM
I don't know, something will turn up. Have you heard claviorganum?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NkoOclYkJQ&t=52s&ab_channel=GhislainGourvennec
Hadn't heard that. I think Leonhardt has an interesting claviorganum recording.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 29, 2022, 01:30:34 AM
Here -- listen to this gorgeous harpsichord

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw8iYtccRnQ&t=190s&ab_channel=JohannesKeller
That's magnificent. I don't see much of him on iTunes. I wonder if we can find that instrument anywhere else.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 29, 2022, 06:54:03 AM
I can't help but post this great video of Jorg Demus playing the E major prelude and fugue from BK II. I'm sort of stuck on this prelude especially. I find it interesting to hear the way different artists explore the phrasing of it. It's very touching and sensitive music, at least for Demus. The fugue brings back a heavy reality and resignation.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMV60tnNE3s
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on July 29, 2022, 01:15:56 PM
Quote from: milk on July 29, 2022, 06:54:03 AM
I can't help but post this great video of Jorg Demus playing the E major prelude and fugue from BK II. I'm sort of stuck on this prelude especially. I find it interesting to hear the way different artists explore the phrasing of it. It's very touching and sensitive music, at least for Demus. The fugue brings back a heavy reality and resignation.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMV60tnNE3s

Yes there are some really nice effects in the prelude, around 1:02 for example, in the lower voice, the LH. But then he does the unforgivable . . . the cardinal sin . . . he pumps up the volume really loud at the end of the fugue, and, to compound things, he slows it down! The horror!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on July 29, 2022, 03:21:05 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 29, 2022, 01:15:56 PM
Yes there are some really nice effects in the prelude, around 1:02 for example, in the lower voice, the LH. But then he does the unforgivable . . . the cardinal sin . . . he pumps up the volume really loud at the end of the fugue, and, to compound things, he slows it down! The horror!
Pianists can't help themselves.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: staxomega on August 01, 2022, 09:44:30 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 27, 2022, 10:25:47 PM
Yes, I suppose you mean phrases.

I haven't heard Feinberg, but is the common denominator of Hill and Feinberg their detailed working out of the individual voices?

I've listened to Peter Hill in both books this weekend. I'm not sure how anyone could compare Feinberg with Hill, they are polar opposites in approach. Feinberg is very much the old school, legato heavy take along the lines of Edwin Fischer. I also hear Hill as firmly grounded ala Gulda that someone said this of on the previous page. Hill is more stylistically similar to Koroliov than Feinberg.

I could be way off and a different Feinberg with the same surname is being discussed :) This is the one I know https://youtu.be/94XFV8X77U0

edit: Harriet Cohen and Evlyn Howard Jones are also worth hearing if people like Feinberg, E. Fischer, etc.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on August 01, 2022, 03:22:00 PM
Quote from: hvbias on August 01, 2022, 09:44:30 AM
I've listened to Peter Hill in both books this weekend. I'm not sure how anyone could compare Feinberg with Hill, they are polar opposites in approach. Feinberg is very much the old school, legato heavy take along the lines of Edwin Fischer. I also hear Hill as firmly grounded ala Gulda that someone said this of on the previous page. Hill is more stylistically similar to Koroliov than Feinberg.

I could be way off and a different Feinberg with the same surname is being discussed :) This is the one I know https://youtu.be/94XFV8X77U0

edit: Harriet Cohen and Evlyn Howard Jones are also worth hearing if people like Feinberg, E. Fischer, etc.
They aren't much alike. I heard a similarity in one respect only (how they interpreted phrasing a particular prelude) and it was fleeting. Feinberg is very much old school and is often dramatic, brash, daring.
Hill is nothing like that.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: George on August 01, 2022, 05:34:26 PM
Quote from: milk on August 01, 2022, 03:22:00 PM
They aren't much alike. I heard a similarity in one respect only (how they interpreted phrasing a particular prelude) and it was fleeting. Feinberg is very much old school and is often dramatic, brash, daring.
Hill is nothing like that.

Feinberg's WTC is truly something special.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on August 01, 2022, 11:57:38 PM
The most interesting thing about Feinberg for me is the way he uses dynamics in Bk2 - he makes the music come alive and respire through gentle waves of louder and softer. I think it's unbelievably poetic and I think it's quite unique.


My strongest memory of it is the first time I heard it - it was really early one morning, about 5 a.m. - I was up at that time to catch a plane to San Francisco I remember, a dark and cold winter's night in London. I couldn't believe how beautiful what he was doing was!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 22, 2022, 11:23:07 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM3MzM1NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjM3NTkzMDJ9)

New release, I'd say the performances lean on the energetic and inoffensive run through side. A bit like hearing it through a barrel organ. Not feeling positive so far, I have to say. Maybe I'll come round to it. I'm listening to Bk 2 by the way, not the one in the image.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 22, 2022, 01:56:44 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 22, 2022, 11:23:07 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM3MzM1NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjM3NTkzMDJ9)

New release, I'd say the performances lean on the energetic and inoffensive run through side. A bit like hearing it through a barrel organ. Not feeling positive so far, I have to say. Maybe I'll come round to it. I'm listening to Bk 2 by the way, not the one in the image.

I don't like the sound of organ much.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on October 22, 2022, 02:59:41 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 22, 2022, 11:23:07 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM3MzM1NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjM3NTkzMDJ9)

New release, I'd say the performances lean on the energetic and inoffensive run through side. A bit like hearing it through a barrel organ. Not feeling positive so far, I have to say. Maybe I'll come round to it. I'm listening to Bk 2 by the way, not the one in the image.

I'm going to listen to this tomorrow (download from Presto without booklet - MERDE!!). Judged from the picture a positiv (=small) organ is used. This would be my ideal for this music when organ is used, but of course the interpretation as such plays an important role.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on October 22, 2022, 03:01:28 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 22, 2022, 01:56:44 PM
I don't like the sound of organ much.

Your problem, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on October 23, 2022, 12:48:22 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 22, 2022, 01:56:44 PM
I don't like the sound of organ much.

It might help to think of this organ as a box of flutes. It sounds like a box of flutes.

(Quite enjoying it in small doses this morning, with a different sound system and a different head-space. It's a smiley, cheerful WTC 2, light hearted. But no - it's wearing after a short time. )
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on October 23, 2022, 12:12:50 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 22, 2022, 11:23:07 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM3MzM1NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjM3NTkzMDJ9)

New release, I'd say the performances lean on the energetic and inoffensive run through side. A bit like hearing it through a barrel organ. Not feeling positive so far, I have to say. Maybe I'll come round to it. I'm listening to Bk 2 by the way, not the one in the image.

It's strange, that this is the first recording of the WTC on a chamber organ. This instrument has the great advantage of having a modest and clear sound well suited for the music. Otsuka's interpretation is rather straight-forward with almost inflexible pace (except for traditional ritardandi at the end of sections). What makes me associate to Helmut Walcha is also the insistent character of the playing, the almost metric execution of embellishments and ornamentation and the clear part playing. His articulation though is much more informed than Walchas home-made articulation. I have wondered about the tuning of the chamber organ. So far all modes sound equally out of tune I suppose the tuning is equal.
However I think the new recording is an interesting contribution to the WTC field.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 23, 2022, 01:28:51 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 23, 2022, 12:48:22 AM
It might help to think of this organ as a box of flutes. It sounds like a box of flutes.

(Quite enjoying it in small doses this morning, with a different sound system and a different head-space. It's a smiley, cheerful WTC 2, light hearted. But no - it's wearing after a short time. )

I'll do so.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 22, 2022, 07:29:12 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 22, 2022, 11:23:07 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM3MzM1NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjM3NTkzMDJ9)

New release, I'd say the performances lean on the energetic and inoffensive run through side. A bit like hearing it through a barrel organ. Not feeling positive so far, I have to say. Maybe I'll come round to it. I'm listening to Bk 2 by the way, not the one in the image.

It turns out that my FB friend made that organ! He and others call it "positive organ". I don't know what it is.


The explanation is very helpful and informative. Thanks a lot.

Quote from: (: premont :) on October 23, 2022, 12:12:50 PM
It's strange, that this is the first recording of the WTC on a chamber organ. This instrument has the great advantage of having a modest and clear sound well suited for the music. Otsuka's interpretation is rather straight-forward with almost inflexible pace (except for traditional ritardandi at the end of sections). What makes me associate to Helmut Walcha is also the insistent character of the playing, the almost metric execution of embellishments and ornamentation and the clear part playing. His articulation though is much more informed than Walchas home-made articulation. I have wondered about the tuning of the chamber organ. So far all modes sound equally out of tune I suppose the tuning is equal.
However I think the new recording is an interesting contribution to the WTC field.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 14, 2023, 04:10:13 PM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTUxMjU2My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2OTAyNzg2MDB9)
Well here's something new. I feel like my ears are rusty, which is a good thing. How about you, will you be listening to this?
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on September 14, 2023, 11:02:57 PM
Thanks, I will definitely give it a go.  :)

Though considering that everyone and granny is trying their hands on the WTC lately, succes rate is remarkably low. Steven Devine is the last notable recording IMO.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 15, 2023, 05:17:23 AM
Quote from: milk on September 14, 2023, 04:10:13 PM(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTUxMjU2My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2OTAyNzg2MDB9)
Well here's something new. I feel like my ears are rusty, which is a good thing. How about you, will you be listening to this?

Poblocka WTC2 too.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: AnotherSpin on September 15, 2023, 05:54:35 AM
Quote from: premont on October 22, 2022, 02:59:41 PMI'm going to listen to this tomorrow (download from Presto without booklet - MERDE!!). Judged from the picture a positiv (=small) organ is used. This would be my ideal for this music when organ is used, but of course the interpretation as such plays an important role.

Like this recording. The perfect accompaniment for hanging out in space.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 15, 2023, 05:58:09 AM
Quote from: Que on September 14, 2023, 11:02:57 PMThough conside9thst everyone and granny is trying their hands on the WTC lately, succes rate is remarkably low. Steve Devine is the last notable recording IMO.


Don't forget Colin Booth, who incidentally made the harpsichord Devine is using.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on September 15, 2023, 07:25:42 AM
Quote from: milk on September 14, 2023, 04:10:13 PM(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTUxMjU2My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2OTAyNzg2MDB9)
Well here's something new. I feel like my ears are rusty, which is a good thing. How about you, will you be listening to this?

I can't find it on any streaming service.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Spotted Horses on September 15, 2023, 08:09:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 22, 2022, 11:23:07 AM(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM3MzM1NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjM3NTkzMDJ9)

New release, I'd say the performances lean on the energetic and inoffensive run through side. A bit like hearing it through a barrel organ. Not feeling positive so far, I have to say. Maybe I'll come round to it. I'm listening to Bk 2 by the way, not the one in the image.

I did listen to very brief excerpts (Apple Music Streaming), and I found it interesting. I didn't listen to anything sufficient to judge quality of performance, but it was refreshing to hear the music on a different instrument.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Que on September 15, 2023, 09:32:28 AM
Quote from: premont on September 15, 2023, 05:58:09 AMDon't forget Colin Booth, who incidentally made the harpsichord Devine is using.

I haven't heard Colin Booth, wasn't available on Spotify (yet) but I'm not surprised that he is of interest!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 16, 2023, 12:18:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 15, 2023, 05:17:23 AMPoblocka WTC2 too.

Quite challenging!
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 16, 2023, 03:16:19 AM
Quote from: milk on September 14, 2023, 04:10:13 PM(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTUxMjU2My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2OTAyNzg2MDB9)
Well here's something new. I feel like my ears are rusty, which is a good thing. How about you, will you be listening to this?

Sounds very good to me.

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/63/000159836.pdf

Nice bassy clangy Hemsch inspired instrument  - interesting tuning - fresh (new) performance ideas which make you prick up your ears  -  back to sources for the manuscript - acceptable sound engineering, you're on the front row or even in the player's seat  -  what's not to like?

(Listening to BK 2)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 16, 2023, 02:46:05 PM
Quote from: milk on September 14, 2023, 04:10:13 PM(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTUxMjU2My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2OTAyNzg2MDB9)
Well here's something new. I feel like my ears are rusty, which is a good thing. How about you, will you be listening to this?

I have just downloaded it from Presto (Flac files including booklet) for a donation price amounting to 13½ Euro. Shall listen to some of it tomorrow. Mandrykas comments sound encouraging.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Spotted Horses on September 17, 2023, 08:26:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 22, 2022, 11:23:07 AM(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM3MzM1NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjM3NTkzMDJ9)

New release, I'd say the performances lean on the energetic and inoffensive run through side. A bit like hearing it through a barrel organ. Not feeling positive so far, I have to say. Maybe I'll come round to it. I'm listening to Bk 2 by the way, not the one in the image.

I tried prelude and fugue I from book I. I found it unlistenable. Got halfway through the prelude before I had to turn it off.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: milk on September 19, 2023, 04:43:34 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 16, 2023, 03:16:19 AMSounds very good to me.

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/63/000159836.pdf

Nice bassy clangy Hemsch inspired instrument  - interesting tuning - fresh (new) performance ideas which make you prick up your ears  -  back to sources for the manuscript - acceptable sound engineering, you're on the front row or even in the player's seat  -  what's not to like?

(Listening to BK 2)
Makes me think again that harpsichordists generally know what it's about while pianists may or may not. But really, this is top drawer.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on September 19, 2023, 06:29:59 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on September 17, 2023, 08:26:33 AMI tried prelude and fugue I from book I. I found it unlistenable. Got halfway through the prelude before I had to turn it off.

I kind of liked it, for a change.  The sound of the organ did not bother me.  But don't know how many P/F I can take. She can play, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Spotted Horses on September 19, 2023, 11:12:58 PM
Quote from: San Antone on September 19, 2023, 06:29:59 PMI kind of liked it, for a change.  The sound of the organ did not bother me.  But don't know how many P/F I can take. She can play, that's for sure.

I heard some prominent beating in the first prelude, which was a turnoff. Maybe an interesting "well-tempered" tuning? Perhaps accentuated by the overwhelming soundstage in the recording? Anyway, didn't work for me.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Mandryka on September 20, 2023, 12:32:19 AM
I think it takes a considerable adjustment to get into the swing of it, if you can't obliterate the memory of other performances. The organ brings more than a change to timbre - it's as if the instrument leads her to new ideas for touch and phrasing and balance. Still haven't heard her Bk 1 by the way.

One thing I have noticed  is the absence of pompousness. Whether that means that the interpretation is too small scale is a moot point IMO. It's one thing to say it's light, relaxed, domestic. The flip side of that is that it doesn't have much by way of seriousness,  gravitas.  But still, it's a good thing that the recording poses these questions, gives food for thought.


 
Quote from: Spotted Horses on September 17, 2023, 08:26:33 AMI tried prelude and fugue I from book I. I found it unlistenable. Got halfway through the prelude before I had to turn it off.
:)
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: premont on September 20, 2023, 05:19:01 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 20, 2023, 12:32:19 AMI think it takes a considerable adjustment to get into the swing of it, if you can't obliterate the memory of other performances. The organ brings more than a change to timbre - it's as if the instrument leads her to new ideas for touch and phrasing and balance. Still haven't heard her Bk 1 by the way.

One thing I have noticed  is the absence of pompousness. Whether that means that the interpretation is too small scale is a moot point IMO. It's one thing to say it's light, relaxed, domestic. The flip side of that is that it doesn't have much by way of seriousness,  gravitas.  But still, it's a good thing that the recording poses these questions, gives food for thought.


  :)

I had no problems at all. What attracts me is precisely the small scale domestic air.

BTW Naoya Otsuka is a he, not a she.

Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: San Antone on September 20, 2023, 06:18:39 AM
Quote from: premont on September 20, 2023, 05:19:01 AMBTW Naoya Otsuka is a he, not a she.

Oh.  I was working off of this photo on Spotify. Maybe there are two musicians with the same name?

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2JNR8t0/Screenshot-2023-09-20-at-9-16-23-AM.png)

I was a bit confused with her holding an oboe, but thought, well maybe she plays organ too.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: JBS on September 20, 2023, 06:31:22 AM
His Youtube channel is here
https://youtube.com/channel/UCRW9-2zT90bH1hWHeafroeA?feature=shared

As of now, it's simply uploads of the WTC recording.
Title: Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 20, 2023, 06:42:59 AM
Quote from: San Antone on September 20, 2023, 06:18:39 AMOh.  I was working off of this photo on Spotify. Maybe there are two musicians with the same name?

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2JNR8t0/Screenshot-2023-09-20-at-9-16-23-AM.png)

I was a bit confused with her holding an oboe, but thought, well maybe she plays organ too.

He is a professor at Tokyo Art University, the most prestigious conservatory in Japan.


http://waonrecords.jp/waoncd390.html