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The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Mark on August 31, 2007, 01:56:19 PM

Title: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Mark on August 31, 2007, 01:56:19 PM
Okay, I know we've had detailed discussions about these works in the past, but not (I think) on this new forum. So, let's discuss both individual recordings and complete cycles, promote favourites, lambast the worst on record and generally disagree on which versions come out on top. Like we do with all other bodies of work, basically. ;)

In all seriousness, I'm starting this thread because I'm warming to these symphonies (yes, even the early ones) much more than I did the first couple of attempts I had at getting to know them. I have Colin Davis and the LSO to thank for this in part: the not-so-old LSO Live recordings of Symphonies Nos. 6-9 have really made me look anew at the cycle as a whole. I don't currently own any of the sets or singles previously praised as top choices, so I'd be interested to hear your views on which discs you own and, more importantly, enjoy.

Thanks in advance. :)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: hornteacher on August 31, 2007, 03:34:06 PM
Ding!  Ding!  Ding!  You just hit the jackpot with me.  I've been doing score studies on several Dvorak Symphonies recently and have really started exploring the earlier works.  I stumbled across a cycle which I posted about somewhere else on GMG, but I'll mention it here.

This set by Ivan Anguelov and the Czecho-Slovak Radio Symphony was a real unexpected treat.  A great cycle all the way around, but especially in the first six symphonies.

For individual recordings, I found Levine's CSO recording of the 7th to be outstanding, especially in the brass.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=4627

For the 8th and 9th, I love Mackerras with the Prague Symphony Orchestra:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=118764

It's #2 on my list of desert island CDs (just below his Beethoven Cycle).

Dvorak's earlier symphonies don't get nearly as much attention as they should.  The 4th, 5th, and 6th are especially good and should be performed more in my opinion.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: not edward on August 31, 2007, 05:01:28 PM
Quote from: hornteacher on August 31, 2007, 03:34:06 PM
Dvorak's earlier symphonies don't get nearly as much attention as they should.  The 4th, 5th, and 6th are especially good and should be performed more in my opinion.
Can't say I know all that much about recordings of the Dvorak symphonies--so I won't offer an opinion on them--but I'd just like to second this view of the value of the 6th. I know some consider it a "transitional" work but it's my second favourite in the cycle after the 7th.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: mahlertitan on August 31, 2007, 05:56:16 PM
My favorite is the 4th, so go have another listen.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: hornteacher on August 31, 2007, 06:20:25 PM
Quote from: edward on August 31, 2007, 05:01:28 PM
Can't say I know all that much about recordings of the Dvorak symphonies--so I won't offer an opinion on them--but I'd just like to second this view of the value of the 6th. I know some consider it a "transitional" work but it's my second favourite in the cycle after the 7th.

Yes, and the 6th historically was the most popular of his works until the New World debuted.  Dvorak conducted the 6th on his visits to London and Moscow where in both cities it was a smash hit.  In the case of the London performance, it led to the commission of what became the 7th Symphony.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: RebLem on August 31, 2007, 06:36:25 PM
I recommend the Kubelik/BPO DGG box as a basic reference standard with superb performances of everything.

Supplement it with the Ancerl 6, 8, & 9, the Szell/Cleveland 7, 8, & 9 on Sony, and the Zdenek Macal 9th with the LPO on the budget Classics for Pleasure label.  Other fine 9ths are the Reiner/CSO & the Giulini/CSO.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: BorisG on August 31, 2007, 06:52:35 PM
4 & 5 Suitner, 6 & 8 Chung, 7 Bernstein, 9 Harnoncourt.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: mahlertitan on August 31, 2007, 08:32:23 PM
nobody likes Neumann here?
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Daverz on August 31, 2007, 10:21:35 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on August 31, 2007, 08:32:23 PM
nobody likes Neumann here?

I do.  Partcularly for the Czech Philharmonic.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: val on September 01, 2007, 03:54:05 AM
My favorites:

1 - Rowicki, LSO

2, 3 - Kubelik, BPO

4 - Kertesz, LSO

5 - Karel Sejna, CzPO / Rowicki, LSO / Kertesz LSO.

6 - Kertesz, LSO / Talich, CzPO / Kubelik BPO.

7 - Monteux, LSO / Kubelik, BPO / Dorati, LSO / Giulini, LPO.

8 - Kubelik, BPO / Dorati, LSO / Giulini, Philharmonia

9 - Ancerl, CzPO / Giulini, Philharmonia / Toscanini, NBC
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Lethevich on September 01, 2007, 01:50:12 PM
It seems that I keep banging on about Neumann/CzPO every time this thread appears, hehe... It's early 80s I think, but sounds VERY good considering the usual poor quality you get on 80s classical recordings and I don't notice its age when listening. The interps are also an effective antidote to some overly slow performances which can be ok (Giulini) or bad (Davis). When I bought the full set it came in 3x wide 2CD cases with 3 syms in each (with one sym split over both discs, unfortunately, but so many ways to get around this issue nowadays), so warning to people with shelf space issues. This also implies that they may be buyable seperately so a person can avoid the one with the first 3 if they don't like them. I consider the newer Supraphon box with Válek a bit of a dud, as it offers nothing better than Neumann, interpretation-wise, and is also piecemeal, studio with a few lives mixed in.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: beclemund on September 03, 2007, 09:35:37 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v444/beclemund/Dvorak9Masur.jpg)

I have always enjoyed this recording. I have the Davis LSO 6-9 set and a few Jansons with the Oslo-Filharmonien (5, 7 and 8 ) as well and while it has been some time since I last paid attention to Dvořák's symphonies, I do enjoy the later ones quite a bit. I have not ever heard his early symphonies, however.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Michel on September 03, 2007, 01:32:12 PM
Don't let anyone recommend you the Kertesz box set, there is a lot better out there.

Ancerl is great, better than Neumann for me on the 'organic' front. Ancerl's 9th is really cool, on Supraphon.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Bonehelm on September 04, 2007, 12:36:25 AM
When it comes to the 8th and 9th, no one does it better than Karajan. It's a no brainer-purchase. :)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Hector on September 04, 2007, 07:17:41 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on September 04, 2007, 12:36:25 AM
When it comes to the 8th and 9th, no one does it better than Karajan. It's a no brainer-purchase. :)

I had his 9th.

I'd say boneheaded rather than no-brainer.

Plenty of fine recordings of the 9th including Jarvi pere and Bernstein.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Lethevich on September 04, 2007, 07:24:31 AM
Quote from: Michel on September 03, 2007, 01:32:12 PM
Don't let anyone recommend you the Kertesz box set, there is a lot better out there.

Ancerl is great, better than Neumann for me on the 'organic' front. Ancerl's 9th is really cool, on Supraphon.

Hehe, how strange - we both like and dislike the same things. The Kertesz provoked a very negative reaction from me when I heard two discs, for some reason. I really found something repellant about it ??? :-X
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: DavidW on September 05, 2007, 03:56:16 AM
Quote from: Michel on September 03, 2007, 01:32:12 PM
Don't let anyone recommend you the Kertesz box set, there is a lot better out there.

Ancerl is great, better than Neumann for me on the 'organic' front. Ancerl's 9th is really cool, on Supraphon.

Yeah Ancerl's recordings are the best imo.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Bonehelm on September 05, 2007, 04:05:32 PM
Quote from: Hector on September 04, 2007, 07:17:41 AM
I had his 9th.

I'd say boneheaded rather than no-brainer.

Plenty of fine recordings of the 9th including Jarvi pere and Bernstein.

That's just your sad little opinion  ::)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 05, 2007, 05:31:03 PM
Just purchased 6 and 9 with Thomas Dausgaard and the Swedish Chamber Orchestra. On the strength of a review of their Schumann 2 and 4 disc (which I bought as well). What the reviewer mentioned seemed particularly relevant to what I'm looking for in these works. Anybody heard those??
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Michel on September 06, 2007, 09:37:02 AM
There is nothing special about Karajan's 9th...except the last movement has its good points.

But you've obviously not heard other recordings if you think that Karajan is great here.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Renfield on September 06, 2007, 10:55:17 AM
Quote from: Michel on September 06, 2007, 09:37:02 AM
There is nothing special about Karajan's 9th...except the last movement has its good points.

But you've obviously not heard other recordings if you think that Karajan is great here.

Being a Karajan "fanboy" as I assuredly am, I will nonetheless have to agree. Karajan only got the grip of the "New World" the very last time he recorded it (on video); and by that time, he was too old to truly "work his magic" on the piece, in my opinion.

I mean, just listen to Kubelík's recording with (Karajan's) Berlin Philharmonic, and you (or at least I) immediately feel so much closer to the "heart" of the music - or the heart of the idiom, if you want to be more academic about it... ;)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Michel on September 06, 2007, 12:27:47 PM
Renfield, agreed. I am actually a massive Karajan fan generally, too.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: sound67 on September 07, 2007, 04:31:43 AM
Quote from: hornteacher on August 31, 2007, 03:34:06 PM
This set by Ivan Anguelov and the Czecho-Slovak Radio Symphony was a real unexpected treat.  A great cycle all the way around, but especially in the first six symphonies.

Seconded.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Larry Rinkel on September 07, 2007, 05:45:25 AM
Quote from: Michel on September 03, 2007, 01:32:12 PM
Don't let anyone recommend you the Kertesz box set,

What's wrong with it?
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Drasko on September 07, 2007, 06:13:31 AM
Vaclav Neumann's earlier analog cycle with Czech Philharmonic has just been issued in Japan. Looks tempting.

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1940615 (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1940615)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 07, 2007, 06:33:31 AM
Quote from: Drasko on September 07, 2007, 06:13:31 AM
Vaclav Neumann's earlier analog cycle with Czech Philharmonic has just been issued in Japan. Looks tempting.

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1940615 (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1940615)
I have the later digital cycle. Anyone care to compare the two?
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Brian on September 08, 2007, 08:42:39 PM
Quote from: RebLem on August 31, 2007, 06:36:25 PM
I recommend the Kubelik/BPO DGG box as a basic reference standard with superb performances of everything.
I unrecommend the Kubelik for its horrid performances of 1 and 2. Anguelov and Kubelik actually complement each other well, since the DG set's 7-9 are masterful and Anguelov's 1-6 are as well.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 08, 2007, 08:43:54 PM
I wouldn't hold that against Kubelik. Symphonies 1 and 2 are extremely unremarkable.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: sound67 on September 08, 2007, 11:47:52 PM
Indeed. But you know, the legal system requires attorneys to defend their clients the best they can even when they believe they're guilty. The same should apply to classical performances/recordings.  $:)

Thomas
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: mahlertitan on September 09, 2007, 08:27:18 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 08, 2007, 11:47:52 PM
Indeed. But you know, the legal system requires attorneys to defend their clients the best they can even when they believe they're guilty. The same should apply to classical performances/recordings.  $:)

Thomas

what should we do with the guilty ones? should we imprison or execute them too?
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Brian on September 09, 2007, 11:35:27 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 08, 2007, 08:43:54 PM
I wouldn't hold that against Kubelik. Symphonies 1 and 2 are extremely unremarkable.
I actually adore #2. In the right hands (Suitner, Anguelov, etc.) it comes across as cuddly teddy bear of a symphony: you don't need it, and it's not much use to grown-ups, but it sure is cute and makes you smile.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: longears on September 09, 2007, 12:20:57 PM
QuoteDon't let anyone recommend you the Kertesz box set, there is a lot better out there.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 07, 2007, 05:45:25 AM
What's wrong with it?
To quote Edwin Starr:

"Absolutely nothin'."
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 09, 2007, 04:07:25 PM
I have the Suitner 2nd (from the set) as well as Kosler's, but they still don't make it any more interesting. To my ears, of course ;).
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: BorisG on September 09, 2007, 08:16:15 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 09, 2007, 04:07:25 PM
I have the Suitner 2nd (from the set) as well as Kosler's, but they still don't make it any more interesting. To my ears, of course ;).

I am a fan of Suitner and some of his Dvorak, but I do not think anyone could make 1 to 3 interesting enough for me.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: alkan on September 10, 2007, 02:15:46 AM
I agree with Larry Rinkel  .....  the Kersetz set has been a reference for years and it is well recorded.      I find it extremely good and I am very happy with it, although I have not heard other versions .....
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: George on September 10, 2007, 02:44:18 AM
Quote from: longears on September 09, 2007, 12:20:57 PM
To quote Edwin Starr:

"Absolutely nothin'."

"Say it again!"
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: orange on September 14, 2007, 10:19:13 AM
I have Kertesz's and Bernstein's recordings. And I like Bernstein a bit more.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Brian on September 14, 2007, 01:50:42 PM
Quote from: orange on September 14, 2007, 10:19:13 AM
I have Kertesz's and Bernstein's recordings. And I like Bernstein a bit more.
Bernstein's Seventh is quite interesting. He plays it more slowly than everyone I know except Kosler (I think Lenny takes 41 minutes), and the result is a very different kind of drama, and an awful lot of orchestral detail. The finale at first seems hesitant, but then it explodes in a fiery dash to the exit.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: sound67 on September 17, 2007, 02:46:12 AM
QuoteBernstein's Seventh is quite interesting.

Is it? Usually, the slow Bernstein is about as interesting as the fat Elvis.

See his comatose recording of the 9th.

Thomas
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Mark on September 17, 2007, 03:25:33 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 17, 2007, 02:46:12 AM
Usually, the slow Bernstein is about as interesting as the fat Elvis.

My 'Post of Today', no doubt about it. ;D
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 17, 2007, 03:42:25 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 17, 2007, 02:46:12 AM
Is it? Usually, the slow Bernstein is about as interesting as the fat Elvis.

Great quip; laugh-out-loud funny, Thomas. But of course there's not a bit of truth in it. Slow Bernstein is extraordinarily interesting; unique interpretations of Sibelius, Dvorak, Elgar, Tchaikovsky, Brahms. I love the way he re-thought these composer's music in his DG re-makes.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Mark on September 17, 2007, 03:51:15 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 17, 2007, 03:42:25 AM
Great quip; laugh-out-loud funny, Thomas. But of course there's not a bit of truth in it. Slow Bernstein is extraordinarily interesting; unique interpretations of Sibelius ...

Not heard Lenny's DG Sibelius, but his Sony cycle sucked ... apart from the Second and Seventh Symphonies, IIRC. His take on the Third in particular made me want to bitch-slap the Pope.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: George on September 17, 2007, 06:24:12 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 17, 2007, 03:42:25 AM
Great quip; laugh-out-loud funny, Thomas. But of course there's not a bit of truth in it. Slow Bernstein is extraordinarily interesting; unique interpretations of Sibelius, Dvorak, Elgar, Tchaikovsky, Brahms. I love the way he re-thought these composer's music in his DG re-makes.

Sarge

Indeed, see the DG recording of the Pathetique symphony for an example.  $:)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: dtwilbanks on September 17, 2007, 06:29:22 AM
Quote from: alkan on September 10, 2007, 02:15:46 AM
I agree with Larry Rinkel  .....  the Kersetz set has been a reference for years and it is well recorded.      I find it extremely good and I am very happy with it, although I have not heard other versions .....

I'm in the same boat.

[Edit: Well, I *do* have Reiner doing the 9th]
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Lethevich on September 17, 2007, 09:36:31 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 17, 2007, 02:46:12 AM
Is it?

Hehehe!... I checked the length of the LSO Live Davis 7th after he mentioned the Bernstein playtime. Despite me finding Davis suffocatingly slow, the Bernstein is a further 1 minute longer. Horror :)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2007, 04:06:11 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 17, 2007, 03:51:15 AM
Not heard Lenny's DG Sibelius, but his Sony cycle sucked ...

Mark, I believe we have never agreed on the merits of a single recording in all the time we've known each other. Based on that I'd suggest you steer clear of late Lenny.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2007, 04:21:19 AM
Quote from: Michel on September 03, 2007, 01:32:12 PM
Don't let anyone recommend you the Kertesz box set, there is a lot better out there.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 07, 2007, 05:45:25 AM
What's wrong with it?

I dislike the sound quality. Sounds harsh to me. Kertesz tempi tend to be on the fast side, which I abhor, and his conducting is too metronomic, failing to linger when I want the music stretched out a bit. I vastly prefer Rowicki, Suitner and Kubelik's complete cycles. In my opinion Rowicki rules in numbers 1 through 4 and his tone poems, especially Othello, are superb too. Other conductors I like in this music: Szell, Bernstein, Davis, Dohnányi.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2007, 04:40:46 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 17, 2007, 09:36:31 AM
Hehehe!... I checked the length of the LSO Live Davis 7th after he mentioned the Bernstein playtime. Despite me finding Davis suffocatingly slow, the Bernstein is a further 1 minute longer. Horror :)

There are drugs that will cure your ADD, you know. They will allow you to chill and not feel fidgety and suffocated when listening to music a few minutes slower than the norm  ;D

The Davis is one of my favorite versions, perhaps my favorite. I love his tempos which make this symphony sound, even more than usual, like it's part of the German symphonic tradition (very Brahmsian). Davis also brings out the epic/tragic elements (for this is a tragic symphony, one of the very few) better than almost anyone.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Hector on September 18, 2007, 06:16:02 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2007, 04:40:46 AM
There are drugs that will cure your ADD, you know. They will allow you to chill and not feel fidgety and suffocated when listening to music a few minutes slower than the norm  ;D

The Davis is one of my favorite versions, perhaps my favorite. I love his tempos which make this symphony sound, even more than usual, like it's part of the German symphonic tradition (very Brahmsian). Davis also brings out the epic/tragic elements (for this is a tragic symphony, one of the very few) better than almost anyone.

Sarge

Strange that you like one of the best versions for the wrong reasons. Never mind, good on yer, I say.

But you do like things taken inordinately slow. No harm in that, however, except where it seriously damages the music and, unfortunately, many of Bernstein's later DG recordings did just that.

I was listening 'blind' to the 'Enigma' vars a couple of months ago and it was a fine performance up until, that is, 'Nimrod' and I knew, instantly, it could only be Bernstein. Ruined. Everything after that was of no or little interest.

Many conductors self-indulged at this point, Barbirolli for one, but not to this extent. It is obscene!

That is why Boult's EMI version will forever remain the preferred version and benchmark for this work, as will his  recent Lyrita reissue of Elgar's two symphonies.

However, as I have said already, nothing wrong with a bit of wallowing on occasion as long as it doesn't become a habit, a-y,  S-a-r-g-e...? ;D
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: sound67 on September 18, 2007, 10:49:58 AM
Some composers respond better to an as-slowly-as-possible approach than others. Dvorák is not a composer whose music can survive excessively slow tempi. e.g. in Bernstein's DG New World, the second movement almost grinds to a halt and the effect, bearing in mind the comparative slightness of the material, is deadening.

Thomas
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Lethevich on September 18, 2007, 11:15:11 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2007, 04:40:46 AM
There are drugs that will cure your ADD, you know. They will allow you to chill and not feel fidgety and suffocated when listening to music a few minutes slower than the norm  ;D

The Davis is one of my favorite versions, perhaps my favorite. I love his tempos which make this symphony sound, even more than usual, like it's part of the German symphonic tradition (very Brahmsian). Davis also brings out the epic/tragic elements (for this is a tragic symphony, one of the very few) better than almost anyone.

Sarge

:D To be fair, I enjoyed the Davis recording when it was the only that I had - but then Neumann kind of blew it away. At first I found his tempo in the adagio (especially in the big theme towards the middle) bewilderingly fast, but it really grew on me. The clarity that isn't offered by (specifically the LSO Live recording) the Davis was also a bit of a revelation.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: longears on September 18, 2007, 03:05:11 PM
Quote from: Mark on September 17, 2007, 03:51:15 AM
Not heard Lenny's DG Sibelius, but his Sony cycle sucked ... apart from the Second and Seventh Symphonies, IIRC. His take on the Third in particular made me want to bitch-slap the Pope.
Eh?  You must be joshing!  His NYPO cycle is one of the greats.

Oh.  Wait a minute.  Are we talking about Dvorak?  I think you guys (and his excellent Mahler cycle) have finally convinced me to pick up Kubelik's set.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: JoshLilly on September 18, 2007, 03:40:14 PM
Leave me out of this.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Amicus on September 24, 2007, 02:46:24 PM
For Dvorak 7th, Paita and the Philharmonia is the most exciting,  vibrant recording I've heard (of dozens). Not available anymore except from www.musicabona.com (czech classical music site)
In the 8th Kertesz or Fischer and the Budapest
In the 9th Fischer in superb modern sound(though Kubelik and Masur & NYPO are very good also)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 24, 2007, 03:14:38 PM
Yes, Païta rocks. Actually, he rocked in everything he recorded (on his own label), which gave him quite a bad name when he was active. Tut-tut and sneers from the musical and critical establishment... ::)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: jwinter on August 17, 2008, 01:01:46 PM
Any updated thoughts on Dvorak symphony sets?  I have complete sets from Kubelik and Suitner, and 7-9s from Mackerras, Szell, Davis, & Giulini. 

I was thinking of adding a third set.  One of the Neumanns?  The famous Kertesz?
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Bogey on August 17, 2008, 01:09:13 PM
Quote from: jwinter on August 17, 2008, 01:01:46 PM
Any updated thoughts on Dvorak symphony sets?  I have complete sets from Kubelik and Suitner, and 7-9s from Mackerras, Szell, Davis, & Giulini. 

I was thinking of adding a third set.  One of the Neumanns?  The famous Kertesz?

If you are happy with your 9th, then this may be a new avenue for you, JW:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/2731380.jpg)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Mark on August 17, 2008, 02:29:25 PM
Quote from: Bogey on August 17, 2008, 01:09:13 PM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/2731380.jpg)

As recommended to me by Brian, and a terrific cycle indeed. :)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Bogey on August 17, 2008, 02:40:37 PM
Quote from: Mark on August 17, 2008, 02:29:25 PM
As recommended to me by Brian, and a terrific cycle indeed. :)

I believe my source as well Mark.  :)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: hornteacher on August 17, 2008, 03:23:36 PM
Quote from: Bogey on August 17, 2008, 01:09:13 PM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/2731380.jpg)

I second (third?) this cycle.  I've had it for a year or so and love it.  It is the best recordings of Symphonies 1-6 I've heard.  7-9 is marvellous if not quite up to Mackerras' recordings.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: eyeresist on August 17, 2008, 11:04:05 PM
I picked up the Mackerras 7-9, partly on recommendations here for his 9th, but was disappointed. Most distinctive thing was slow tempos and extreme dynamic range. Without those elements it's a good middle-of-the-road performance, not especially idiomatic. His 8th felt very square in the early movements, and like many conductors he played the waltz movement too slow. I also recall some curious moments of self-conscious rubato.

I've listened to the top and tail of the Anguelov set. In the late symphonies I found him excitingly stern and energetic, very good. Early symphonies I didn't like - I recall those performances as square and unsympathetic. These works are structurally weak, and really need their colour and lyricism brought out to compensate. Sound seemed not as good either.

I've been eyeing the Rowicki 2-fers for a while, hoping the price will drop slightly....
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 18, 2008, 05:56:31 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 17, 2008, 11:04:05 PM
I picked up the Mackerras 7-9, partly on recommendations here for his 9th, but was disappointed. Most distinctive thing was slow tempos and extreme dynamic range. Without those elements it's a good middle-of-the-road performance, not especially idiomatic. His 8th felt very square in the early movements, and like many conductors he played the waltz movement too slow. I also recall some curious moments of self-conscious rubato.

I've been eyeing the Rowicki 2-fers for a while, hoping the price will drop slightly....

I have the same feeling regarding the Mackerras. They are not bad by any stretch but coming from Sir Charles I expected to be more. Instead I just got some pretty normal Dvorak with some strange balance and accents here and there.

My favorite cycle so far is Neumann (the one you can currently get in a big box for about $40-$50). I am not sure what "idiomatic" is but I like the perky and slighly breathy winds, the slightly edgy sounding brass, and those airy strings.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2008, 07:15:45 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 17, 2008, 11:04:05 PM

I've been eyeing the Rowicki 2-fers for a while, hoping the price will drop slightly....


After living with Rowicki's Dvorak for more than thirty years, and after having heard every other cycle, I can safely say that I'll go to my grave believing there is no better versions of symphonies 1 thru 4 than his. Never been better Othello and Hussite overtures either.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Mark on August 18, 2008, 12:49:39 PM
Kubelik's Ninth is somewhat exaggerated dynamically, IIRC. Not that I don't enjoy it - I just prefer others. I was surprised by how much I liked Colin Davis' reading with the LSO when that orchestra's live label was still in its infancy. It has real immediacy and thurst; Davis refusing to let tempi drag or phrases outstay their welcome.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Lethevich on August 18, 2008, 12:55:36 PM
Quote from: Mark on August 18, 2008, 12:49:39 PM
Kubelik's Ninth is somewhat exaggerated dynamically, IIRC. Not that I don't enjoy it - I just prefer others. I was surprised by how much I liked Colin Davis' reading with the LSO when that orchestra's live label was still in its infancy. It has real immediacy and thurst; Davis refusing to let tempi drag or phrases outstay their welcome.

Hehe, odd. The 7th on the same label (and presumably recorded around the same time) I found amazingly slow and lethargic...
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: hornteacher on August 18, 2008, 03:01:52 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 17, 2008, 11:04:05 PM
I picked up the Mackerras 7-9, partly on recommendations here for his 9th, but was disappointed.

This is the Mackerras that I highly enjoy:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=118764

Not this one (which is okay but not my favorite and contains some of the problems you mentioned):

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=60897
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: eyeresist on August 18, 2008, 05:40:09 PM
Yes, the Cfp Dvorak/Mackerras is the one I have. I guess playing with the CPO always gives a hometeam advantage.

Thanks for the recommend, Sarge. I've been particularly looking for good performances of the early symphonies, which have been overlooked by most "name" conductors. Dvor/Row 1-3 is on my list!

Re Anguelov, my comments above about the early symphonies were made based on recollections of one listen several months ago, so I went back and listened to symphonies 3 and 4. I take back what I said about "unsympathetic", though he's certainly squarer than Pesek or Gunzenhauser. It's a small orchestra with decidedly weedy strings, and something tonally odd I can't quite put my finger on - I think these are studio recordings. Some odd tempo choices in 4, with 1st mvnt a little slow, and the andante taken at an allegretto speed; 3rd mvnt failed to differentiate section tempos to my liking (though I'll admit to being imprinted by what I guess is the "standard" Czech style here). But this set is cheap and worth checking for symphonies 7 and 9.


Edit: Re Colin Davis, apparently he's done 6-9 with LSO (no extras), and also 7-9 with the Concertgebouw. Can anyone comment on these?
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Mark on August 18, 2008, 09:20:40 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 18, 2008, 05:40:09 PM
Re Colin Davis, apparently he's done 6-9 with LSO (no extras), and also 7-9 with the Concertgebouw. Can anyone comment on these?

Quote from: Mark on August 18, 2008, 12:49:39 PM
I was surprised by how much I liked Colin Davis' reading with the LSO when that orchestra's live label was still in its infancy. It has real immediacy and thurst; Davis refusing to let tempi drag or phrases outstay their welcome.

Quote from: Lethe on August 18, 2008, 12:55:36 PM
Hehe, odd. The 7th on the same label (and presumably recorded around the same time) I found amazingly slow and lethargic...

And then again, according to the '1001 Classical Recordings to Hear Before You Die' guide, his Eighth from the same series (which I also have) is the one to hear.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: eyeresist on August 18, 2008, 10:24:35 PM
Quote from: Mark on August 18, 2008, 09:20:40 PM
And then again, according to the '1001 Classical Recordings to Hear Before You Die' guide, his Eighth from the same series (which I also have) is the one to hear.

And what do you think of it?
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Mark on August 19, 2008, 12:48:21 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 18, 2008, 10:24:35 PM
And what do you think of it?


I'm the wrong person to ask - I have no particular fondness for Dvorak's Eighth.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: ChamberNut on August 19, 2008, 04:18:14 AM
Quote from: Mark on August 19, 2008, 12:48:21 AM
I'm the wrong person to ask - I have no particular fondness for Dvorak's Eighth.

Mark, bite your tongue!  :o :-X  That's my favorite Dvorak symphony.   0:)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Mark on August 19, 2008, 04:24:18 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 19, 2008, 04:18:14 AM
Mark, bite your tongue!  :o :-X  That's my favorite Dvorak symphony.   0:)

Give me his Sixth or Seventh (especially the latter's low, brooding opening) any day. :P
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: ChamberNut on August 19, 2008, 04:25:20 AM
Quote from: Mark on August 19, 2008, 04:24:18 AM
Give me his Sixth or Seventh (especially the latter's low, brooding opening) any day. :P

Absolutely don't disagree with you there.  :)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Brian on August 19, 2008, 09:41:30 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 18, 2008, 05:40:09 PM
Yes, the Cfp Dvorak/Mackerras is the one I have. I guess playing with the CPO always gives a hometeam advantage.
Also, the new Supraphon Mackerras disc cannot possibly be accused of being too slow. The first movement of the Ninth is as blazing as an 80-year-old can get, I suppose ... actually, rather more.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: jwinter on August 19, 2008, 10:34:18 AM
Thanks for all of the suggestions, guys!  Plenty of stuff to ponder.  I may be leaning towards Neumann/Czech PO -- I have their Slavonic Dances and like them a lot -- but will definitely check into some of the other suggestions.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Lethevich on August 19, 2008, 11:03:11 AM
Quote from: jwinter on August 19, 2008, 10:34:18 AM
Thanks for all of the suggestions, guys!  Plenty of stuff to ponder.  I may be leaning towards Neumann/Czech PO -- I have their Slavonic Dances and like them a lot -- but will definitely check into some of the other suggestions.  Thanks!

I can confirm that the Neumann is very good. The recording quality is quite nice considering it is from the 80s, a time when many recordings sound unusual. A bit "thin" perhaps, but it is detailed and nicely balanced (which is ideal as Neumann's conducting could be described similarly :P).
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: eyeresist on August 20, 2008, 05:46:27 PM
Has anyone compared both Neumann sets?

I finally finished listening to the Anguelov set, and have concluded that his 6, 7 and 9 are terrific. The others, not so much, and it's a shame he didn't do better by 4 and 8, which are among my favourites. Possibly he'll do another with a bigger orchestra? :fingers crossed:

Quote from: BrianAlso, the new Supraphon Mackerras disc cannot possibly be accused of being too slow. The first movement of the Ninth is as blazing as an 80-year-old can get, I suppose ... actually, rather more.
So... Either Mackerras was not in fact 80 when he made this recording, or he did something which is actually impossible?

Regarding favourite Dvorak symphonies, I'm afraid I don't really understand the praise heaped on the 7th - for all its huffing and puffing, I've always found it a bit slight. Looking forward to hearing the Szell version though. For the 8th, many performances fall short. Barbirolli is excellent, Rowicki is good and idiomatic (though both these performances have aged sonics and some scrappy playing), and my secret favourite is Horvat's bargain recording with the ORF. The others are lacklustre in various movements, and often take the waltz movement far too slow (to make it more "serious").
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Bogey on August 20, 2008, 05:55:34 PM
Quote from: jwinter on August 19, 2008, 10:34:18 AM
Thanks for all of the suggestions, guys!  Plenty of stuff to ponder.  I may be leaning towards Neumann/Czech PO -- I have their Slavonic Dances and like them a lot -- but will definitely check into some of the other suggestions.  Thanks!

With the Anguélov set that was mentioned JW, please try to sample the earlier symphonies in the set.  Here are my thoughts on the first two (while Brian is waitng restlessly for the rest ;D):

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,75.60.html
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: sound67 on August 21, 2008, 12:44:18 AM
Quote from: jwinter on August 19, 2008, 10:34:18 AM
I may be leaning towards Neumann/Czech PO -

Don't. They are thoroughly routine, with thinned out and flat sound to match. Kubelik, Kertesz, Suitner(!!!), Järvi, and also Anguélov, are all better choices. Never heard the Rowicki.

Thomas
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: eyeresist on August 21, 2008, 02:45:29 AM
Quote from: sound67 on August 21, 2008, 12:44:18 AM
Don't. They are thoroughly routine, with thinned out and flat sound to match. Kubelik, Kertesz, Suitner(!!!), Järvi, and also Anguélov, are all better choices. Never heard the Rowicki.

Since I am not a big fan of any of these, I may feel obliged to check out Neumann now  :P


Bogey, I will listen to 1 and 2 (Anguelov) again this weekend, as they were the first I listened to, and I feel I should re-evaluate in light of the rest of his set. (Might also help to be sober this time, erm, *ahem*.)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: sound67 on August 21, 2008, 02:49:34 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 21, 2008, 02:45:29 AM
Since I am not a big fan of any of these...

Why?
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 21, 2008, 05:53:46 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 21, 2008, 02:45:29 AM
Since I am not a big fan of any of these, I may feel obliged to check out Neumann now  :P


You are not a big fan of these what? These works? These conductors? You have heard all of them?
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Brian on August 21, 2008, 07:29:55 AM
Quote from: Bogey on August 20, 2008, 05:55:34 PM(while Brian is waitng restlessly for the rest ;D):
(*Brian makes discreet coughing noises*)  ;D
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: karlhenning on August 21, 2008, 07:39:50 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 21, 2008, 07:29:55 AM
(*Brian makes discreet coughing noises*)  ;D

♫  Just like the . . . old man in . . . that book by Nabokov.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Brian on August 21, 2008, 07:41:08 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 21, 2008, 07:39:50 AM
♫  Just like the . . . old man in . . . that book by Nabokov.
Not necessarily for the same purpose.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Keemun on August 21, 2008, 07:42:18 AM
Brian, how is your comparative review of the major Dvorak symphony cycles (Kubelik, Kertesz, Rowicki, Suitner, Neumann [digital], Anguelov, Gunzenhauser, Pesek, and Jarvi) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20.msg180592.html#msg180592) coming along?  If/when you finish it, would you be so kind as to share it with us?   :)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: karlhenning on August 21, 2008, 07:55:48 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 21, 2008, 07:41:08 AM
Not necessarily for the same purpose.

Sustained, though the court notes the speed with which a denial was issued . . . .
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Brian on August 21, 2008, 09:09:34 AM
Quote from: Keemun on August 21, 2008, 07:42:18 AM
Brian, how is your comparative review of the major Dvorak symphony cycles (Kubelik, Kertesz, Rowicki, Suitner, Neumann [digital], Anguelov, Gunzenhauser, Pesek, and Jarvi) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20.msg180592.html#msg180592) coming along?  If/when you finish it, would you be so kind as to share it with us?   :)
It's going to have a hard time during the school year (4 300-level classes...) but my apartment doesn't have Internet* so I will have plenty of listening time. I've got all but one of those cycles with me (Rowicki, left it at home) and actually have listened to ... 25-30 of the 81 performances already.  :)


*I'm stealing the neighbor's annoyingly intermittent wireless  :P
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Keemun on August 21, 2008, 09:31:49 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 21, 2008, 09:09:34 AM
It's going to have a hard time during the school year (4 300-level classes...) but my apartment doesn't have Internet* so I will have plenty of listening time. I've got all but one of those cycles with me (Rowicki, left it at home) and actually have listened to ... 25-30 of the 81 performances already.  :)


*I'm stealing the neighbor's annoyingly intermittent wireless  :P

I'm glad to hear that it's still in the works.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: eyeresist on August 21, 2008, 06:11:48 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 21, 2008, 05:53:46 AM
You are not a big fan of these what? These works? These conductors? You have heard all of them?

Obviously I'm a fan of the works or I wouldn't be here. I have the Kertesz, Suitner and Anguelov sets, I may pick up the Kubelik if it's going cheap, and I won't bother with Jarvi.

Kertesz is lively and sounds Czech, but his interpretations sometimes seem bland and superficial to me. Also, the old London recordings are bright and bass-shy, and make for uncomfortable listening.
Suitner I haven't listened to for a while. I recall enjoying a couple of the performances, but finding most of them rather square and unexciting, lacking the Czech lilt.
Anguelov, as I've said above, has small orchestra, some weak strings and slightly odd sound. His early symphonies aren't lyrical enough for my taste.
Kubelik is a bit of a frustration for me - he's obviously a talent, but his interpretations aren't to my taste. From the samples I've heard of his Dvorak he often chooses tempos I find too slow.
Jarvi, as usual, will be servicable but nobody's first choice.

Flame on!
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: M forever on August 21, 2008, 07:03:22 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 21, 2008, 06:11:48 PM
Kubelik is a bit of a frustration for me - he's obviously a talent

That's very generous of you.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: M forever on August 21, 2008, 07:22:49 PM
M has a nice video of the Česka filharmonie playing the 9th symphony under the direction of Vaclav Neumann in 1993, to mark the 100th anniversary of the work's premiere (which was played by the New York Philharmonic under Anton Seidl, of course):

(http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/7638/vlcsnap120677pi0.jpg)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Brian on August 21, 2008, 08:27:41 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 21, 2008, 06:11:48 PM
Kubelik is a bit of a frustration for me - he's obviously a talent, but his interpretations aren't to my taste. From the samples I've heard of his Dvorak he often chooses tempos I find too slow.
You may like Rowicki. His interpretations are fast. They make me motion-sick.

M, I bet that's a great video.  :)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: eyeresist on August 21, 2008, 09:31:19 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 21, 2008, 07:03:22 PM
That's very generous of you.

Those Czechs need all the help they can get  :P


Quote from: Brian on August 21, 2008, 08:27:41 PM
You may like Rowicki. His interpretations are fast. They make me motion-sick.

I've heard him in 7-9, and his speeds seemed conventional. As for the earlier ones, I guess I'll see when I see...
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: sound67 on August 21, 2008, 11:54:22 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 21, 2008, 06:11:48 PM...lacking the Czech lilt.

Kindly explain what this means.  ???

QuoteAnguelov, as I've said above, has small orchestra, some weak strings and slightly odd sound.

Did you by any chance read the liner notes? Then you'd know why it's supposed to sound different.

Thomas
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: John Copeland on August 22, 2008, 04:51:59 AM
Istvan Kertesz and the LSO.
I think these recordings are fabulous, not held back, no restrain, a real tonic for anyone who wants to hear Dvorak with a bit of punch.
:-*

EYERESIST:  "Kertesz is lively and sounds Czech, but his interpretations sometimes seem bland and superficial to me. Also, the old London recordings are bright and bass-shy, and make for uncomfortable listening."

I disagree with eyeresist completely.  Kertesz seems to raise Dvorak from the dead on these London recordings, bass shy or not - that being more a sound engineering problem rather than conductor / orchestra.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 22, 2008, 06:33:40 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 21, 2008, 06:11:48 PM
Kertesz is lively and sounds Czech, but his interpretations sometimes seem bland and superficial to me. Also, the old London recordings are bright and bass-shy, and make for uncomfortable listening.

Kubelik is a bit of a frustration for me - he's obviously a talent, but his interpretations aren't to my taste. From the samples I've heard of his Dvorak he often chooses tempos I find too slow.

Then you really should sample Rowicki whose tempos are often on the swift side without, IMO, making the music sound superficial. Rhythmically he's incredibly strong and lively and he punches home the climaxes with considerable power. I much prefer the more natural sound of the London Symphony as captured by Philips to the Decca (Kertész) recording with the same orchestra. You're right: the Decca is too bright, at least to my ears. I prefer Kertész's Fifth though (Rowicki is too fast in the first movement).

Sarge
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: ChamberNut on August 22, 2008, 06:55:10 AM
I must be the only one with the Virgin Classics set with Libor Pesek (Czech Philharmonic Orchestra/Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra).

;D
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: karlhenning on August 22, 2008, 08:00:55 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 22, 2008, 06:55:10 AM
I must be the only one with the Virgin Classics set with Libor Pesek (Czech Philharmonic Orchestra/Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra).

;D

I don't have the entire set, but what I've got is very good.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: sound67 on August 22, 2008, 09:37:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 22, 2008, 08:00:55 AM
I don't have the entire set, but what I've got is very good.

Pesek's 5th certainly is.

Thomas
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Frankler on August 22, 2008, 12:43:40 PM
Dvorak's 4th was one of the first pieces of classical music I owned, I still think its finale is very catchy; A couple of years later I recognized the same movement in some lesbian film I watched.  ;)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: sound67 on August 22, 2008, 12:47:13 PM
I wanna watch that lesbian film. Maybe it'll make me appreciate that Dvorák symphony more!

Thomas
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 23, 2008, 11:45:42 AM
I have a filthy yet pertinent-to-the-piece reply to that one, but I'll refrain.....  0:) 0:)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: John Copeland on August 23, 2008, 02:22:41 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 23, 2008, 11:45:42 AM
I have a filthy yet pertinent-to-the-piece reply to that one, but I'll refrain.....  0:) 0:)

Don't refrain, I've been sitting for an hour trying to figure out what it might be!
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Brian on August 23, 2008, 08:18:15 PM
Quote from: mahler10th on August 23, 2008, 02:22:41 PM
Don't refrain, I've been sitting for an hour trying to figure out what it might be!
Well, the finale of the Dvorak Fourth takes ages to reach its climax.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 01:31:45 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 23, 2008, 08:18:15 PM
Well, the finale of the Dvorak Fourth takes ages to reach its climax.

According to RVW, Dvorák's symphonies got "five climaxes to every movement". Sounds like they are good potential porn scores.  >:D

Thomas
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: lukeottevanger on August 24, 2008, 03:11:13 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 23, 2008, 08:18:15 PM
Well, the finale of the Dvorak Fourth takes ages to reach its climax.

...and it does so by repeating the same old lick for an extraordinary number of times....

(yes, I was going to say something along those lines.....)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 24, 2008, 10:13:41 AM
I don't think that collecting Dvorak cycles is a good idea. It may happen to be good to have one if you happen to find it at a good price and it happens that buying it fills gaps in your collection. Typically if you own one or two of the symphonies only, and don't want to bother shopping around for the 'best of' symphonies 1-4 (the mildly likeable but inferior ones). Anyone who buys more than one cycle should have his head exemined. I can understand owning 2-3 each of 5 and 6, and up to 6 of 7-9. And one definitely should do that, because they ARE major works that demand varied treatments to reveal their full worth. But one cycle only (if necessary).


BTW bass shy is not an adjective I would have applied to the Kertesz LSO cycle. They only need a slight treble cut and the sound is perfect.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 10:18:02 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 24, 2008, 10:13:41 AMAnyone who buys more than one cycle should have his head exemined.

If you applied the same logic to owners of cycles of Beethoven or Mozart symphonies, I think shrinks the world over would have full schedules for years and years.  ;D Not all of THEIR symphonies are thatz great to begin with.

Isn't that one of the great things about classical music that you often have so many DIFFERENT versions of one piece to enjoy - enabling you to wallow with pleasure in their differences?

Thomas
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 24, 2008, 10:25:17 AM
Pas du tout! :D

Dvorak is Dvorak, and Beethoven is Beethoven (hmmm,,, talk about a truism ::)). and Mozart is Mozart. I hold Mozart early symponies 1- 24 and Mendelssohn 14 string symphonies to the same treatment - and logic. Nice, likeable, but worthy of duplication?

Quote
Isn't that one of the great things about classical music that you often have so many DIFFERENT versions of one piece to enjoy - enabling you to wallow with pleasure in their differences?

I absolutely agree with this. Otherwise I wouldn't have hundreds of Bruckner recordings on my shelves ;D ! It's just that owning all of a composer's work does not guarantee you'll derive enjoyment and enlightenment in equal measure throughout. Otherwise we wouldn't have all those stories of torn and burned scores, and the like.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Brian on August 24, 2008, 12:45:20 PM
Quote from: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 01:31:45 AM
According to RVW, Dvorák's symphonies got "five climaxes to every movement".
Nonsense, only female composers can write more than one climax in each symphony.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: hornteacher on August 24, 2008, 02:59:42 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 24, 2008, 12:45:20 PM
Nonsense, only female composers can write more than one climax in each symphony.

On the other hand if the symphony is more than.....say.....30 minutes long.......
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: eyeresist on August 24, 2008, 06:59:46 PM
Quote from: sound67 on August 21, 2008, 11:54:22 PM
Kindly explain what this means.  ???
Czech lilt: characteristic manner of rhythm and expression of melody. It swings and bounces in a folkish way.

Quote from: sound67 on August 21, 2008, 11:54:22 PM
Did you by any chance read the liner notes? Then you'd know why it's supposed to sound different.
My set had no liner notes. Please enlighten us.


Quote from: Brian on August 23, 2008, 08:18:15 PM
Well, the finale of the Dvorak Fourth takes ages to reach its climax.

I thought you were going to mention all that banging at the end.


Chambernut, I have the Pesek set too. It varies from okay to very good, but I haven't sat down to decide which is which. However, I find it very easy to reach for when I want some Dvorak, as they are proficient, characteristic performances in good recent sound.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: M forever on August 24, 2008, 07:12:03 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 24, 2008, 06:59:46 PM
My set had no liner notes.

You mean the rips you downloaded didn't come with full scans.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Brian on August 24, 2008, 07:13:55 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 24, 2008, 07:12:03 PM
You mean the rips you downloaded didn't come with full scans.
It can be downloaded legally from Classicsonline, which does not provide liner notes on that particular box set.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: eyeresist on August 24, 2008, 09:58:48 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 24, 2008, 07:12:03 PM
You mean the rips you downloaded didn't come with full scans.

My copy is totally legit! But it's no-frills... Movement times are only printed on the CDs, so I had to type them up, print them out, and stick them in the back of the case.  :-[
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: MichaelRabin on September 06, 2010, 02:50:04 PM
Hi there, What you fellow forum members think of this set? Gramophone chose this amongst the 250 top recordings. I heard some samples on Amazon and I think to myself - no great shakes. Classics Today rated them very highly. 10/10 and 10/9. etc. Your opinions please? Thanks!
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Lethevich on September 06, 2010, 02:56:26 PM
It is my favourite Dvořák integral - Neumann brings a very natural, flowing approach, but never risks making the music sound superficial. There are many more overtly dramatic cycles out there, if that is not what you are looking for.

Its only slight downside is that the recorded sound is a little thin, it could have more presence. But it's clear and balanced.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: eyeresist on September 06, 2010, 04:06:10 PM
I haven't heard the full cycle, but I generally find Neumann bland and workmanlike, a kapellmeister in the negative sense. OTOH, I appreciate the Pesek cycle more and more.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Cristofori on September 06, 2010, 05:31:31 PM
I haven't heard the Neumann set either, but I recently picked up the complete cycle cond. by Witold Rowicki with the LPO. These are recently reissued recordings originally released between 1965 & 1972 on the Phillips label, even though this new set is on the Decca label.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B0033KR5Z2/ref=dp_image_text_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B0033KR5Z2/ref=dp_image_text_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music)

I've only heard the 1st symphony so far and was satisfied with both the SQ and the performance. I've always found the SQ on the famous cycle by Kubelik on DG to be harsh, thin & edgy, one of the usually reliable DG's less then stellar efforts (and needless to say no longer in my collection).

If the rest of this set by Rowicki is at least as good as what I've heard so far, then it will be a welcome reissue indeed!
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: hornteacher on September 06, 2010, 05:45:03 PM
The Neumann is rather good if you like a more controlled interpretation.  Another interesting set to look at is this one:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=220014

Its a very charming reading, especially of the early symphonies.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Peregrine on September 06, 2010, 10:16:58 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 06, 2010, 04:06:10 PM
I haven't heard the full cycle, but I generally find Neumann bland and workmanlike, a kapellmeister in the negative sense.

There's an amazing live Dvorak ninth from 1993 (I think?) that would challenge this notion.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Harry on September 06, 2010, 11:41:31 PM
Quote from: Cristofori on September 06, 2010, 05:31:31 PM
I've always found the SQ on the famous cycle by Kubelik on DG to be harsh, thin & edgy, one of the usually reliable DG's less then stellar efforts (and needless to say no longer in my collection).


I must and will disagree with you, its neither harsh, thin or edgy. It sounds detailed, with a excellent front to back image. I  afraid that the stereo you play on is not up to the job.
I have played this set on numerous sets, never gave me the result you are talking about.  But maybe you are thinking about the SQ on DG, instead of the Symphonies? :) As far as I know Kubelik never ventured into directing the SQ. ;D In that case I must agree, the sound is challenging to say the least.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Cristofori on September 08, 2010, 12:40:06 AM
Quote from: Harry on September 06, 2010, 11:41:31 PM
I must and will disagree with you, its neither harsh, thin or edgy. It sounds detailed, with a excellent front to back image. I  afraid that the stereo you play on is not up to the job.
I have played this set on numerous sets, never gave me the result you are talking about.  But maybe you are thinking about the SQ on DG, instead of the Symphonies? :) As far as I know Kubelik never ventured into directing the SQ. ;D In that case I must agree, the sound is challenging to say the least.

Yes, I was mainly speaking about the SQ, not the performances of the Kubelik cycle, but perhaps there was something missing there as well, I don't know. Maybe I expected too much out of this highly rated set. Regardless, I don't feel that these were some of DG's better efforts on the technical end. Neither was the Dvorak/Kubelik Hungarian Dances on DG.

I've compared those before to the Dvorak/Brahms Hungarian Dances by Karajan (also on DG) and the Kubelik reading seemed washed out and uninspired by comparison. I think that Kubelik is a fine conductor, but it seems to me he got a raw deal with some of his DG recordings.

As far as my audio system goes, that may be true, but all I know is that it seems to like other Dvorak symphonic recordings better (so does my car audio), so I'm giving them what they and I both want.

Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: The new erato on September 08, 2010, 04:05:46 AM
Very strange, as i played Kubeliks Hungarian dances (op 46) just the other day, and was revelling in the dynamic, open sound.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Lethevich on September 08, 2010, 05:00:02 AM
I can't speak for the symphonies, but the symphonic poems, overtures and dances by Kubelik (currently repackaged on a DG Trio) proved problematic for me as well, sound quality-wise. It is one of those discs that sounds absolutely nasty if played on cheap equipment, and while I rarely get an opportunity to hear music in an ideal situation, the recordings do sound a lot better on well-positioned quality speakers (a more marked difference than with most other recordings). Lower end gear seems to give it a rather harsh, shrill sound and does the dynamic range and depth no justice.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: The new erato on September 08, 2010, 05:15:20 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 08, 2010, 05:00:02 AM
I can't speak for the symphonies, but the symphonic poems, overtures and dances by Kubelik (currently repackaged on a DG Trio) proved problematic for me as well, sound quality-wise. It is one of those discs that sounds absolutely nasty if played on cheap equipment, and while I rarely get an opportunity to hear music in an ideal situation, the recordings do sound a lot better on well-positioned quality speakers (a more marked difference than with most other recordings). Lower end gear seems to give it a rather harsh, shrill sound and does the dynamic range and depth no justice.
As my speakers cost tons of money, that may be the reason....It's the DG Trio I have.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Josquin des Prez on September 08, 2010, 05:41:14 AM
What about Istvan Kertesz? I have his overtures and i find them extremely good. Always meant to buy the rest but never had the chance to.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Cristofori on September 08, 2010, 01:56:28 PM
Quote from: erato on September 08, 2010, 04:05:46 AM
Very strange, as i played Kubeliks Hungarian dances (op 46) just the other day, and was revelling in the dynamic, open sound.
I don't know which editions you have, but I compared the DG Kubelik "The Originals" series reissue CD of the Hungarian dances to the Karajan one reissued on the budget "Eloquence" label on the same audio system and the latter was much more enjoyable both in terms of SQ and performance.

As I said before, I normally think that Kubelik is an excellent conductor but he seems to have had a bit of bad luck for me on the DG label.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Cristofori on September 08, 2010, 02:06:11 PM
Quote from: Lethe on September 08, 2010, 05:00:02 AM
I can't speak for the symphonies, but the symphonic poems, overtures and dances by Kubelik (currently repackaged on a DG Trio) proved problematic for me as well, sound quality-wise. It is one of those discs that sounds absolutely nasty if played on cheap equipment, and while I rarely get an opportunity to hear music in an ideal situation, the recordings do sound a lot better on well-positioned quality speakers (a more marked difference than with most other recordings). Lower end gear seems to give it a rather harsh, shrill sound and does the dynamic range and depth no justice.
My system is OK. Nothing to brag about, but it handles most things fairly well considering what I paid. I've had better gear in the past and I hope to again in the near future.

I understand about problematic recordings. Some of my most favorite performances have less than ideal SQ or acoustics and are a bit hard to listen to, but if you needed a high-end system to make these type of recordings sound great, than it stands to reason that the ones that sounded better on a lower-end system would sound really, REALLY great!

Sometimes the biggest problem in the audio chain is the recording itself.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Herman on September 08, 2010, 04:05:50 PM
Quote from: Cristofori on September 06, 2010, 05:31:31 PM
I haven't heard the Neumann set either, but I recently picked up the complete cycle cond. by Witold Rowicki with the LPO. These are recently reissued recordings originally released between 1965 & 1972 on the Phillips label, even though this new set is on the Decca label.

That's because Philips has been absorbed in Decca.



QuoteI've only heard the 1st symphony so far and was satisfied with both the SQ and the performance. I've always found the SQ on the famous cycle by Kubelik on DG to be harsh, thin & edgy, one of the usually reliable DG's less then stellar efforts (and needless to say no longer in my collection).

This is about Kubelik's Berlin Phil recordings? That may be a 'famous' cycle, but the one with the BRSO is better and has no sound issues.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Brian on September 08, 2010, 05:52:19 PM
Quote from: Lethe on September 08, 2010, 05:00:02 AM
I can't speak for the symphonies, but the symphonic poems, overtures and dances by Kubelik (currently repackaged on a DG Trio) proved problematic for me as well, sound quality-wise. It is one of those discs that sounds absolutely nasty if played on cheap equipment, and while I rarely get an opportunity to hear music in an ideal situation, the recordings do sound a lot better on well-positioned quality speakers (a more marked difference than with most other recordings). Lower end gear seems to give it a rather harsh, shrill sound and does the dynamic range and depth no justice.

I've had the same experience with the Kubelik DG Trio. It just barely survived my latest collection-culling, despite performances I know to be very good.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Cristofori on September 11, 2010, 06:13:12 PM
Quote from: Herman on September 08, 2010, 04:05:50 PM
That's because Philips has been absorbed in Decca.

This is news to me. I know that the big three have been a part of the Universal music group for some time, but until very recently Phillips was still issuing releases (and many still available) under it's own name. I'm not sure what they are trying to accomplish here, as all this will do is serve to confuse those who are looking for recordings they remembered under a different guise.

To a serious LP/CD collector like me, Phillips and London/Decca are very different entities indeed. The only thing being in common is that they were both mainly European imports.


QuoteThis is about Kubelik's Berlin Phil recordings? That may be a 'famous' cycle, but the one with the BRSO is better and has no sound issues.
Which label produced the ones with the BRSO, and what incarnation are they available today, if at all?
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: The new erato on September 12, 2010, 01:49:49 AM
Quote from: Cristofori on September 11, 2010, 06:13:12 PM
I'm not sure what they are trying to accomplish here, as all this will do is serve to confuse those who are looking for recordings they remembered under a different guise.
As have been explained on several occasions, Universal simply lost the right to the Philips trademark. For once; no sinister machinations.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: MichaelRabin on September 12, 2010, 11:02:07 PM
On a direct Kertesz against V Neumann, which set do forum members prefer please?

Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Cato on September 13, 2010, 04:22:36 AM
Quote from: MichaelRabin on September 12, 2010, 11:02:07 PM
On a direct Kertesz against V Neumann, which set do forum members prefer please?

Ouch!  For me, this is very difficult!  Kertesz introduced me to the early Dvorak symphonies, as did Neumann!  As a result, they are both somewhat "imprinted" on my brain as being the best! 

I have not heard the CD versions, but the edge might be given to Kertesz on the basis of better sound engineering.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Daverz on September 13, 2010, 10:13:38 AM
Quote from: Cato on September 13, 2010, 04:22:36 AM
I have not heard the CD versions, but the edge might be given to Kertesz on the basis of better sound engineering.

I'd give the edge to Neumann for the very good early digital sonics  and the special sound of the Czech Philharmonic.   

I think the Rowicki set is a better recorded representation of the LSO than the Kertesz set. 

I wouldn't want to be without Kertesz or Neumann.  The Neumann is also available as 3 separate boxes: 1-3, 4-6, 7-8; so you don't have to buy the whole thing.  I have to admit that I never listen to 1-3.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Supraphon/SU37032
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Supraphon/SU37042
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Supraphon/SU37052

Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Cato on September 13, 2010, 12:51:06 PM
Quote from: Daverz on September 13, 2010, 10:13:38 AM
I'd give the edge to Neumann for the very good early digital sonics  and the special sound of the Czech Philharmonic.   

I think the Rowicki set is a better recorded representation of the LSO than the Kertesz set. 

I wouldn't want to be without Kertesz or Neumann.  The Neumann is also available as 3 separate boxes: 1-3, 4-6, 7-8; so you don't have to buy the whole thing.  I have to admit that I never listen to 1-3.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Supraphon/SU37032
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Supraphon/SU37042
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Supraphon/SU37052

Yes, on Rowicki!  Sarge recommended them some years ago, and I followed his suggestion.  Excellent sound and performances!

Supraphon vinyl records, back in the "bad ol' days," had high hiss problems: glad to read that their CD's have no such drawback.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: MichaelRabin on September 14, 2010, 02:52:45 PM
Yes indeed Daverz - at that price, Presto is offering a real steal. Go for it?

Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: MichaelRabin on September 14, 2010, 02:56:23 PM
Quote from: MichaelRabin on September 06, 2010, 02:50:04 PM
Hi there, What you fellow forum members think of this set? Gramophone chose this 2 (Kertesz & Neumann) amongst the 250 top recordings. I heard some samples on Amazon and I think to myself - no great shakes. Classics Today rated them very highly. 10/10 and 10/9. etc. Your opinions please? Thanks!

Forgot to type Kertesz & Neumann.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Daverz on September 14, 2010, 05:23:54 PM
Quote from: MichaelRabin on September 14, 2010, 02:52:45 PM
Yes indeed Daverz - at that price, Presto is offering a real steal. Go for it?

And the 3 separate boxes are altogether much cheaper than the complete set!
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: MichaelRabin on September 17, 2010, 02:54:18 PM
Presto's p&p are somewhat inflated. But even despite buying the 3 mini box sets, this works out cheaper than the whole box. Still pondering here!
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: George on January 08, 2017, 06:52:34 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2008, 07:15:45 AM
After living with Rowicki's Dvorak for more than thirty years, and after having heard every other cycle, I can safely say that I'll go to my grave believing there is no better versions of symphonies 1 thru 4 than his. Never been better Othello and Hussite overtures either.

Sarge

I recently decided to get a complete set of these symphonies. I previously only had 5, 7, 8 and 9 with Kertesz, 8, 9 with Walter and 7,8, 9 with Kubelik. I recalled that you liked the Rowicki a lot and recommended it to me years ago. I also read that our Jens and none other than David Hurwitz put it at the top of their lists. Still, I have enjoyed my Kertesz recording a lot so, I thought I'd still do some comparing. Amazon has the two sets at the same (budget) price and since space is very limited for me now, I only want to get one set. I did some comparing on Spotify and I can say I wholeheartedly agree with you! Not only is the playing for Rowicki tighter, the sound is a lot better as well. So I'll be ordering the Rowicki now. Many thanks, and hope all is well with you, Sarge!
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Maestro267 on January 08, 2017, 10:11:34 AM
It's quite bizarre how Dvorák 9 is one of the most popular symphonies of them all, and going backwards they seem to decrease in popularity to the point where 1-4 are hardly ever heard at all. I've never heard 1-3 or 5 ever in my entire history of listening to classical music. I must rectify this at some point, hopefully with a nice boxset.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Mahlerian on January 08, 2017, 10:28:36 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 08, 2017, 10:11:34 AM
It's quite bizarre how Dvorák 9 is one of the most popular symphonies of them all, and going backwards they seem to decrease in popularity to the point where 1-4 are hardly ever heard at all. I've never heard 1-3 or 5 ever in my entire history of listening to classical music. I must rectify this at some point, hopefully with a nice boxset.

It's not all that dissimilar from the relative prominence of Wagner's Ring cycle, Tristan, and Meistersinger as opposed to Die Feen or Das Liebesverbot, or the popularity of Mozart's last three symphonies over No. 1, 4, and 5.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 08, 2017, 10:42:42 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 08, 2017, 10:11:34 AM
It's quite bizarre how Dvorák 9 is one of the most popular symphonies of them all, and going backwards they seem to decrease in popularity to the point where 1-4 are hardly ever heard at all. I've never heard 1-3 or 5 ever in my entire history of listening to classical music. I must rectify this at some point, hopefully with a nice boxset.
Why do you think that is bizarre? 7-9 are superior to the first 6 in every way. 5 and 6 are superior to 1-4, there is no denying that. It might be interesting to hear 1-4 out of curiosity but if Dvorak didn't write 7-9 no one would give a hoot about 1-4.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Crudblud on January 08, 2017, 11:21:27 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 08, 2017, 10:11:34 AM
It's quite bizarre how Dvorák 9 is one of the most popular symphonies of them all, and going backwards they seem to decrease in popularity to the point where 1-4 are hardly ever heard at all. I've never heard 1-3 or 5 ever in my entire history of listening to classical music. I must rectify this at some point, hopefully with a nice boxset.

I would say it is partly the prestige of the late work which is popularly afforded to many "great masters" prior to modernism (in which case it seems that early, "revolutionary" works, such as The Rite of Spring, are most highly thought of), and partly the mythology of the piece that does it for this particular Ninth. In addition to the pre-existing "curse of the ninth", Dvořák was, according to some sources (Bernstein in particular seemed to hold this view; furthermore that he failed), looking to impress upon American composers that theirs would be a unique music rather than that of Europe abroad. Regardless of intent, it seems to have been held in high esteem in America for some time; for example: Ives aped Dvořák throughout his first symphony, which was composed in that style to please his teacher Horatio Parker. I think Dvořák's 9th has experienced an oversaturation because it has an unshakeable position within the foundations of American classical music. That isn't to say it's not a fine piece of music, but this kind of phenomenon almost always has more to do with things outside the work than the work itself, I think.

The above might be entirely wrong (I am, after all, going on an understanding of music history cobbled together from random things I have read and largely forgotten over the years) and I am happy to be called an ignorant buffoon for having bothered to type it out.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Brian on January 08, 2017, 11:26:46 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 08, 2017, 10:42:42 AM
Why do you think that is bizarre? 7-9 are superior to the first 6 in every way. 5 and 6 are superior to 1-4, there is no denying that. It might be interesting to hear 1-4 out of curiosity but if Dvorak didn't write 7-9 no one would give a hoot about 1-4.
I suspect that 1 & 2 would be trotted out at a rate comparable to Fibich - very, very rarely - while 3 and 4 (especially 3) would be a little more popular and programmed by a handful of advocate conductors, similar to the odd symphonic hit by Goldmark or Berwald. I personally think 3 and the first three movements of 4 to be superior to 5, but that's a matter of taste, perhaps. (My personal preference of Dvorak symphonies is something like 876932451.)

I must add to the praise for Rowicki, who really is the best in all these works! Myung-Whun Chung also is worth seeking out in the symphonies he recorded for DG.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: George on January 08, 2017, 11:43:02 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 08, 2017, 11:26:46 AM
I must add to the praise for Rowicki, who really is the best in all these works!

I am very glad to hear you hold his set in such high regard, Brian!
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Jo498 on January 08, 2017, 12:09:36 PM
I have heard 1 and 2 (Kertesz) but I do not remember anything about them, so they might be rightfully obscure ;) 5 and especially 6 I find seriously underrated compared to the last three, 3 and 4 are not uninteresting and I remember first listening to 4 when driving south from San Francisco (I had bought a bunch of CDs in the SF Tower records, incl. the Rowicki twofer with 4-6) with a friend in 2004, so there will always be fond recollections of Californian landscapres connected with that piece...
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2017, 01:06:37 PM
Quote from: George on January 08, 2017, 06:52:34 AM
So I'll be ordering the Rowicki now.

Great choice, even if I do say so myself  ;)

Sarge 
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: George on January 08, 2017, 02:24:27 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2017, 01:06:37 PM
Great choice, even if I do say so myself  ;)

Sarge

Of course, if I don't love the set I will hold you personally responsible.  $:)
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: aukhawk on January 09, 2017, 08:18:21 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 08, 2017, 11:26:46 AM
(My personal preference of Dvorak symphonies is something like 876932451.)

6587 49321

No.5 is the symphony that Kertesz really nailed like nobody else.
The Kertesz recordings came in for some comment about the sound quality when they were first released - "in a zinc-tank" one reviewer said - and from what I've heard the digital transfers have only made things worse.  I have the 5th and 6th as needledrops and they sound much better than the CDs.  This slight sound issue does make Rowicki the better all-round recommendation.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Jo498 on January 09, 2017, 09:15:50 AM
I should probably do an A-B-comparison but to my recollection I preferred the (CD) sound of the Kertesz to Rowicki (of which I have only 4-6) but found both pretty good as far as sound was concerned. (As far as I recall when I bought the Kertesz the complete Rowicki was oop and probably the two twofers I would have needed together more expensive than the Kertesz and both were highly regarded.)

Obviously neither does have a specific "Czech" sound, so if one demands this one had probably best seek out historical recordings with Sejna and Talich or maybe Neumann.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Maestro267 on January 09, 2017, 11:23:49 AM
Well unlike most of you I'll be willing to give the "obscure" symphonies a good hearing, and as good a chance as they deserve to seep into my memory. Very often all music needs to be appreciated is repeated hearings; not giving up if, after one or two goes, it doesn't reveal all its secrets. I can already tell you now that there is some merit in the early Dvorák symphonies. There HAS TO BE! They were written by the same man as he who wrote the "New World", the Symphonic Variations, the Cello Concerto etc. The seeds were always there from the start, even if they don't reach full germination until the later works, SOME merit is there!
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: George on January 09, 2017, 11:29:59 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 09, 2017, 11:23:49 AM
Well unlike most of you I'll be willing to give the "obscure" symphonies a good hearing, and as good a chance as they deserve to seep into my memory. Very often all music needs to be appreciated is repeated hearings; not giving up if, after one or two goes, it doesn't reveal all its secrets. I can already tell you now that there is some merit in the early Dvorák symphonies. There HAS TO BE! They were written by the same man as he who wrote the "New World", the Symphonic Variations, the Cello Concerto etc. The seeds were always there from the start, even if they don't reach full germination until the later works, SOME merit is there!

In the process of comparing the Kertesz and the Rowicki, I couldn't stop listening to #2. I really liked it. I plan to give all 9 symphonies a good listen when my Rowicki set arrives.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 09, 2017, 11:30:49 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 09, 2017, 08:18:21 AM
6587 49321

No.5 is the symphony that Kertesz really nailed like nobody else.

I think the same about Rowicki's Fifth  ;D  But, yeah, the Kertesz is a great cycle, one I'd recommend with Rowicki's. My number 2 anyway.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 09, 2017, 11:32:53 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 09, 2017, 11:23:49 AM
Well unlike most of you I'll be willing to give the "obscure" symphonies a good hearing

Thank you. I seem to be one of the few here who love all the early symphonies as much as the late ones.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 09, 2017, 06:42:20 PM
The Rowicki and Kertesz are my two favourites also. My favourite of his symphonies being the 1st and 5th.........it's hard to work out which of the two I prefer in terms of recordings OR symphonies. :-\
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: George on January 09, 2017, 07:09:32 PM
Glad to see so much love for Rowicki and Kertesz in this thread. I have a twofer of the Kertesz that has his Dvorak 5th, 7th, 8th and 9th symphonies. And I have his whole set on my phone on MP3.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 09, 2017, 07:22:13 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 09, 2017, 11:32:53 AM
Thank you. I seem to be one of the few here who love all the early symphonies as much as the late ones.

Sarge
Me too. I actually listen to the early ones periodically. I rarely listen to the later ones, though I have a soft spot for #6.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: amw on January 09, 2017, 07:24:46 PM
I haven't done any comparison of Kertesz and Rowicki, apart from that I like both of them (and also Neumann, whom I like as well. And Bělohlávek. Like him too.)

7th, 6th, 5th and 8th are my favourites. Second place goes to the 3rd, 4th, 2nd, 1st and 9th. Third through ninth places are empty.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: aukhawk on January 11, 2017, 02:13:27 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 09, 2017, 11:23:49 AM
Well unlike most of you I'll be willing to give the "obscure" symphonies a good hearing, and as good a chance as they deserve to seep into my memory. Very often all music needs to be appreciated is repeated hearings; not giving up if, after one or two goes, it doesn't reveal all its secrets.

It seems to me that when Dvorak was writing and publishing his music, his target audience didn't usually have the luxury of repeated listenings.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: Mirror Image on January 11, 2017, 08:28:29 AM
I've got Neumann (older cycle) and Kertesz, which I really enjoy. I never really felt the need to own another cycle and that's because my dad owns the rest of them. ;D
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: André on January 11, 2017, 02:09:42 PM
I like Kertesz' big and beefy Dvorak. I also like Kosler's lean and lilting view (symphonies 1-7). Suitner is a splendid alternative, beautifully played and recorded. IMHO all of these capture the essence of the music better than Kubelik, who had so many gos at them that he shoud be judjed accordingly.

When it's all said and done, no Dvorak cycle can claim to be "best" at all nine symphonies. Personally I mildly appreciate 1-3. My ears perk up substantially at # 4. And from the 5th to the end it's "Glory be" to whoever does justice to these wonderful scores.

- 4: Neumann, Suitner
- 5: Neumann and Kertesz
- 6 - Ancerl, Neumann, Sejna, Talich (the latter two in inferior sound)
- 7 - Kosler, Davis RCOA, Kertesz, Sejna, Szell.
- 8 and 9: just too many to choose from. For these two the folk/dance elements are more or less internationalized and have for many decades become the province of all great conductors.
Title: Re: Dvorak's Symphonies
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 14, 2017, 04:17:50 AM




A Survey of Dvořák Symphony Cycles
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/03/a-survey-of-dvorak-symphony-cycles.html)

I've recently gotten one cycle that I had always speculated about (if not outright felt that I needed it): Kubelik's.
But seeing that there is now a European/Eloquence box available (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00M9STJ0I/nectarandambr-20) that a.) includes all his DG Dvorak, b.) gives us - for the first time ever! - all symphonies on one CD, instead of breaking the 5th (was it?) into two, and c.) looks good and is nicely space-saving, I snapped it up. I haven't listened to enough of it to suggest that it will be a particular favorite here or there (as mentioned elsewhere here, I'm a fan of Rowicki and some of Neumann's 70s cycle), but it felt like filling a small gap. :-)