GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => The Polling Station => Topic started by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 06:11:29 AM

Poll
Question: Do you entertain the possibility that (e.g.) Williams "borrowed" from other composers, from the classical literature?
Option 1: Yes, pending proof votes: 16
Option 2: No, it is impossible votes: 5
Title: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 06:11:29 AM
Most John Williams fans who are also fans of classical music have heard some sort of accusation levied against the film composer, of some degree of plagiarism.

Those of you who are fans:  Do you think the plagiarism possibly true, or entirely false?

Thank you in advance for participating.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 06:14:13 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 03, 2012, 06:10:32 AM
I agree with this. We must remember that Lucas used Holst's The Planet as temporary music during the post production and asked JW to write similar [...] music for the movie.

Hmm, that looks like the suggestion of some plagiarism, doesn't it?
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 03, 2012, 06:46:48 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2012, 06:11:29 AM
Those of you who are fans:  Do you think the plagiarism possibly true, or entirely false?

Thank you in advance for participating.

Movie music isn't supposed to be original (it can be of course). It is supposed to enhance the movie experience. Composers like John Williams don't deny the strong influences of classical composers. However, for example John Williams is a master of creating (memorable) tunes so there isn't much need for plagiarism but it may occur sometimes.

Movie music is usually structurally simple but not easy to produce because it must match the movie emotionally and "hide" among the other sounds (dialogue, effects, foley) of a movie soundtrack. 
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leon on May 03, 2012, 07:07:57 AM
While I agree that John Williams, among other film composers, probably "borrowed" orchestral effects and stylistic features from Holst and other composers from the classical tradition - I am not sure if it matters.

It is not as if what John Williams does is important or rises to the level of being in competition with those he is ripping off. 

Big deal: so Star Wars music sounds a lot like The Planets.  I think Holst's work and his reputation are immune from any damage a well-skilled workmanlike midget like John Williams can inflict.

:)
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 07:18:31 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 03, 2012, 06:46:48 AM
Movie music isn't supposed to be original

A fascinating remark, which colors your entire part in the conversation, doth it not?  Thank you for conceding that Williams was not original, in a great number of places, in the Star Wars music.

Quote from: Arnold on May 03, 2012, 07:07:57 AM
While I agree that John Williams, among other film composers, probably "borrowed" orchestral effects and stylistic features from Holst and other composers from the classical tradition - I am not sure if it matters.

It is not as if what John Williams does is important or rises to the level of being in competition with those he is ripping off. 

Big deal: so Star Wars music sounds a lot like The Planets.  I think Holst's work and his reputation are immune from any damage a well-skilled workmanlike midget like John Williams can inflict.

:)

That is all fair enow.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 07:21:48 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 03, 2012, 06:46:48 AM
Movie music is usually structurally simple but not easy to produce because it must match the movie emotionally and "hide" among the other sounds (dialogue, effects, foley) of a movie soundtrack.

Sure; no one argues that writing good music for film has its challenges; nor do I believe that anyone is arguing that Williams is not a gifted writer for film.  As well as a fellow with good taste, when it comes to pilfering ; )

The fact that the task is a challenge, does not negate the artistic sham of the plagiarism.  Gosh, writing a symphony is hard, so of course I borrowed from music which has the emotional content which I need here, and here, and here . . . .
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: kishnevi on May 03, 2012, 07:31:15 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2012, 06:14:13 AM
Hmm, that looks like the suggestion of some plagiarism, doesn't it?

The Warsaw Concerto was written because the producers of the movie in which it appeared couldn't  get the rights from Rachmaninov for one of his own concertos;  they turned around and instructed Addinsall (sp?) to compose, in effect, Rachmaninov's next piano concerto.

Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 07:32:45 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 03, 2012, 07:31:15 AM
The Warsaw Concerto was written because the producers of the movie in which it appeared couldn't  get the rights from Rachmaninov for one of his own concertos;  they turned around and instructed Addinsall (sp?) to compose, in effect, Rachmaninov's next piano concerto.

Thank you! I had my suspicions, there : )
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Todd on May 03, 2012, 07:39:50 AM
Quote from: Igor StravinskyLesser artists borrow, great artists steal.


Seems about right.

While watching a movie scored by Williams, it's possible to divine the influence of, say, Prokofiev here, Mahler there, Dvorak somewhere else, as well as LvB or just about anything else.  I can't say for sure that it is outright plagiarism, but then he may be a lesser artist.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: The new erato on May 03, 2012, 07:49:43 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 03, 2012, 07:07:57 AM
from any damage a well-skilled, extemely rich,  workmanlike midget like John Williams can inflict.

:)
Relevant description added.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: chasmaniac on May 03, 2012, 07:54:48 AM
Simply crediting the originals would end this controversy. What's so hard about that? Is it a money thing? Creative artists allude to and quote the work of others all the time, intending their audiences to see the connections. These are part of the sense a new work makes.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 03, 2012, 08:06:29 AM
I don't care how much John Williams steals from classical composers because that's irrelevant. What is relevant is how those cues are used to make the movie experience better.

Quote from: Arnold on May 03, 2012, 07:07:57 AM
I think Holst's work and his reputation are immune from any damage a well-skilled workmanlike midget like John Williams can inflict.

:)

What damage? If I was Holst I'd be proud my art had so large influence on an iconic movie like Star Wars.

Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leon on May 03, 2012, 08:10:57 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 03, 2012, 08:06:29 AM
I don't care how much John Williams steals from classical composers because that's irrelevant. What is relevant is how those cues are used to make the movie experience better.

What damage? If I was Holst I'd be proud my art had so large influence on an iconic movie like Star Wars.

I can't speak for Holst, but Stravinsky was definitely not pleased how his music was used in an even more iconic movie like Fantasia.   And he even gave permission!

;)
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: kishnevi on May 03, 2012, 08:26:39 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 03, 2012, 08:10:57 AM
I can't speak for Holst, but Stravinsky was definitely not pleased how his music was used in an even more iconic movie like Fantasia.   And he even gave permission!

;)

But Fantasia is not quite the same thing.  There the music was explicitly a performance of Stravinsky's music, not some new piece of music which just happened to sound a lot like Stravinsky, and Stravinsky was (IIRC) not happy with the way his music was presented.

There are obviously a lot of influences at work on any composer, but they don't necessarily rise to the level of plagiarism.  What is important is how the original the second composer is--what he does with the music that the original composer didn't do.

And some borrowings are downright puzzling.  I'd still like to know (to use a definitely non film instance) why Williams decided to use the same exact instrumentation as Quatour pour le fin du temps when he wrote a piece for Obama's inauguration.   Was he trying to suggest Obama was the Second Coming?
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leon on May 03, 2012, 08:32:10 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 03, 2012, 08:26:39 AM
But Fantasia is not quite the same thing.  There the music was explicitly a performance of Stravinsky's music, not some new piece of music which just happened to sound a lot like Stravinsky, and Stravinsky was (IIRC) not happy with the way his music was presented.

There are obviously a lot of influences at work on any composer, but they don't necessarily rise to the level of plagiarism.  What is important is how the original the second composer is--what he does with the music that the original composer didn't do.

And some borrowings are downright puzzling.  I'd still like to know (to use a definitely non film instance) why Williams decided to use the same exact instrumentation as Quatour pour le fin du temps when he wrote a piece of Obama's inauguration.   Was he trying to suggest Obama was the Second Coming?

My post was in response to the idea that Holst ought naturally to be thrilled that Williams adapted his music, or at least, heavily incorporated elements from it, for a popular movie. 

However, if Stravinsky was not so humbled by being a part of a popular movie and had the chutzpah to gripe at how his music was used, and he was aware of the fact his music was being used, then all the more is it reasonable to assume Holst might not be pleased at Williams' appropriation when he no choice in the matter.

:)
Title: Re: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 08:33:40 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 03, 2012, 08:06:29 AM
I don't care how much John Williams steals from classical composers because that's irrelevant.

Did someone forget to advise you that you are not the authority on what is relevant?
Title: Re: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 08:35:53 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 03, 2012, 08:32:10 AM
... if Stravinsky was not so humbled by being a part of a popular movie and had the chutzpah to gripe at how his music was used, and he was aware of the fact his music was being used....

The story is a curious one, and (in a nutshell) Disney had him by the short hairs.
Title: Re: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 03, 2012, 08:38:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2012, 08:33:40 AM
Did someone forget to advise you that you are not the authority on what is relevant?

Yes, you did dear King Karl. Your greatness has such a bad memory.

Sorry pal but I didn't grow up in an authoritarian environment. I believe we all are supposed to use our own head to find out what is relevant and what is not. Bad for you Kings and Lords, good for common man. 
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 09:15:39 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on May 03, 2012, 07:54:48 AM
Simply crediting the originals would end this controversy. What's so hard about that? Is it a money thing? Creative artists allude to and quote the work of others all the time, intending their audiences to see the connections. These are part of the sense a new work makes.

I don't see this as a matter of Williams wanting the audience to see connections.  As Poju points out, Holst was used in the finishing process, and Williams was told, "Give me something like this." It has the look of an invitation to plagiarize.

I should characterize the difference between what Stravinsky did and what Williams does roughly as follows: say they are both pupils handing in a paper at school.  Stravinsky employs found materials, creates something of mastery and in his own voice, at a high artistic level; the teacher grades him an A.  Williams is a little rushed to complete the assignment, takes pre-existing materials, shifts things around a little;  the result is not identifiable as Williams (unlike, say, the marches he wrote for Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark, 1941 . . . fellow had a talent for marches!)  If the teacher catches him out, he's graded an F, and warned that further acts of plagiarism may result in suspension.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Cato on May 03, 2012, 09:47:29 AM
The Holst/Star Wars thing is interesting, because my students (7th Graders for this story) immediately say "Star Wars" when I crank up Holst's The Planets for a mythological section of my Latin course.

One of Williams' earlier scores, also around the Star Wars/Indiana Jones era, which I think outdoes the music for those series, was for a semi-science fiction movie directed by Brian DePalma called The Fury with Kirk Douglas (near 60 at the time), John Cassavetes, and Charles Durning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fury_(1978_film) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fury_(1978_film))

The opening motif slowly traces a D minor chord (I believe, my memory of the key might be wrong) with an added 6th, (D-F-A-Bb-A-F-D)  and he builds on that throughout the overture, and throughout the rest of the movie, a slam-bang affair with one of the most incredible endings in movie history.

Is anything there plagiarized?  No, but you can hear at times something Honeggerian, Herrmannesque, etc.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: eyeresist on May 03, 2012, 06:20:42 PM
Quote from: Arnold on May 03, 2012, 08:10:57 AMI can't speak for Holst, but Stravinsky was definitely not pleased how his music was used in an even more iconic movie like Fantasia.   And he even gave permission!

I wonder how Pergolesi felt about Pulcinella?


I'd like to point out that the charge of plagiarism, at least as framed by Karl, doesn't get off the ground. It's an endless game in classical circles to point out the chain of influences. I hope I don't need to cite examples of this. If Williams wasn't known for working in the dirty, disgusting, worthless, offensive area of music that is film soundtracks, would he be attacked with such self-righteous enthusiasm? I doubt it.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 03, 2012, 06:26:14 PM
I think John Williams and pretty much every film composer are thieves in some way or another. They're not being paid to express their deepest, darkest feelings, they're being paid to express what is on the film screen. That's it and for this I could never take anything Williams or any film composer wrote seriously. He's not writing out of necessity, he's writing to make big money, which he's made a lot of with films like Jaws, Jurassic Park, and Star Wars. I've never been into film scores that much anyway. I do like a few by Goldsmith and Morricone.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: eyeresist on May 03, 2012, 07:06:41 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2012, 06:26:14 PMI think John Williams and pretty much every film composer are thieves in some way or another. They're not being paid to express their deepest, darkest feelings, they're being paid to express what is on the film screen. That's it and for this I could never take anything Williams or any film composer wrote seriously. He's not writing out of necessity, he's writing to make big money, which he's made a lot of with films like Jaws, Jurassic Park, and Star Wars. I've never been into film scores that much anyway. I do like a few by Goldsmith and Morricone.

And you like at least one by Shostakovich, as I recall :)  No love for Herrmann? If anyone has shown that a piece of music written as a dramatic accompaniment can nonetheless (!) be an art work of substantial merit, it's him.

Plenty of good art is made for money. Look at Rossini - he got rich and practically gave up composing. No-one cares - if the music is good enough then it doesn't matter.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 03, 2012, 07:18:30 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 03, 2012, 07:06:41 PM
And you like at least one by Shostakovich, as I recall :)  No love for Herrmann? If anyone has shown that a piece of music written as a dramatic accompaniment can nonetheless (!) be an art work of substantial merit, it's him.

Plenty of good art is made for money. Look at Rossini - he got rich and practically gave up composing. No-one cares - if the music is good enough then it doesn't matter.

I view all film music as music not to be taken seriously even Shostakovich's. That's my opinion of it. I take it with a grain of salt. Shostakovich wrote film music because he had NO choice!!! Look what the Soviet government reduced him to. I could careless what Herrmann did or didn't do. Film music was a way for a serious classical composer back in the mid 20th Century to make some money. I mean even one of my heroes RVW composed film music. But anyone with ears for classical music will tell you his greatest music was never intended for film and was, in fact, an outpouring of his soul and was created for the concert hall. I don't view film music as an art form.

I'm going to end this conversation here, because we'll probably be arguing about it all night. You can have the last word, but I'm bowing out.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: eyeresist on May 03, 2012, 07:26:10 PM
Sorry if I stirred up some bad feelings.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 03, 2012, 07:46:57 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 03, 2012, 07:26:10 PM
Sorry if I stirred up some bad feelings.

No worries, mate. I just didn't want this to turn into four page argument. :)
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 03, 2012, 07:57:36 PM
We've had this discussion before. Either he did or did not plagiarize. It should be fairly easy to document if it is the case. Of course, plagiarism is note for note theft of a theme/melody/etc, not something that just sounds similar. Borrowing is something else, but you seem to really mean plagiarism based on your comments (I think, but please correct me if not).
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2012, 02:18:55 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 03, 2012, 06:20:42 PM
I'd like to point out that the charge of plagiarism, at least as framed by Karl, doesn't get off the ground. It's an endless game in classical circles to point out the chain of influences.

It does get off the ground for anyone who makes any degree of distinction in the process.

Your post, mate, is the equivalent of "the idea that there are different styles of music doesn't get off the ground, it's all notes."

If, as you are fond to imagine, the argument gets no purchase, explain the results of the poll. TIA

Fair disclosure: I abstained from voting.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2012, 02:29:34 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 03, 2012, 07:57:36 PM
Of course, plagiarism is note for note theft of a theme/melody/etc

Thank you for the etc there, truly.  For now I think I have a better idea of the (minority) resistance to the thesis.  Would you expand upon your &c., please?

For all I know, eyeresist claims that Williams is clean, because there is no melodic theft (unlike obvious instances of melodic similarity, like "He's So Fine" and "My Sweet Lord," e.g.)  Which no one is claiming.

As to your point, A) this poll was to gauge general sentiment, B) I love it when your objection is framed on the lines of "It ought to be easy"!  How easy was the process with the two pop songs I mention above?  About as easy as pie?, C) I can demo the plagiarism, but again [1] we must agree upon terms, so what do you encompass within your "&c." please? [2] and — do you read music notation?
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: eyeresist on May 04, 2012, 03:14:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2012, 02:18:55 AMIt does get off the ground for anyone who makes any degree of distinction in the process.

Your post, mate, is the equivalent of "the idea that there are different styles of music doesn't get off the ground, it's all notes."

If, as you are fond to imagine, the argument gets no purchase, explain the results of the poll. TIA

Fair disclosure: I abstained from voting.

What does a poll have to do with it? The "John Williams plagiarised Holst's Mars" consensus in classical circles is the highbrow equivalent of the "Sparkley vampires SUCK!" consensus amongst sci-fi fanboys. It has nothing to do reason or evidence, and everything to do with the urge to be a bien pensant.

Mc ukrneal has posited a definition of musical plagiarism with which most reasonable people would agree (obviously excluding the matter of overt extratextual reference, and things like rhythms and cadences that are understood to fall into the common parlance). Unless substantial note-for-note theft can be verified, this issue is so much hot air.

...

I find myself cast in the weird position of seeming to be a champion of Williams. Certainly I think he's a good writer of soundtracks, and I enjoy his big tunes, but I'm not trying to suggest he's the equal of Holst. As MI has said, the problem is a lack of individual expression. Like many talented people, he (Williams, not MI!) was lured by the temptress Hollywood and her apparently bottomless coffers, and ended up devoting years of his life to work in which he had little personal stake. OTOH, another great reason artists "sell out" to write soundtracks or TV scripts or whatever is in order to get to do what they love for a living. Williams doesn't have to teach classes or push paper all day, and be a "pure" artist on the side. Composing and performing is all he does. To live like that, I guess Williams decided the compromise was worth it.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Cato on May 04, 2012, 03:28:45 AM
For the music near the conclusion of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, so I have read, Spielberg wanted to have When You Wish Upon a Star actually quoted in the soundtrack as the main character enters the alien spaceship.

This eventually was not done for assorted reasons, but if you listen to the soundtrack from the final scenes, you can hear a "whiff" of the song.  Is it quoted?  No, but Williams gives you a hint of the song without quoting it.

From Wikipedia:

Close Encounters of the Third Kind – Steven Spielberg's screenplay for the 1977 film was deeply influenced by the song, and composer John Williams's music for the film interpolates the song's melody. The 1980 "Special Edition" features an arrangement of the song over the end credits.

My emphasis.

Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Scion7 on May 04, 2012, 03:31:42 AM
 "Sparkley vampires SUCK!" consensus amongst sci-fi fanboys. It has nothing to do reason or evidence" - Sorry, but they DO suck, and it has everything to do with good taste and reason.

Carry on!
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leon on May 04, 2012, 03:41:59 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 03, 2012, 06:20:42 PM
I wonder how Pergolesi felt about Pulcinella?


I'd like to point out that the charge of plagiarism, at least as framed by Karl, doesn't get off the ground. It's an endless game in classical circles to point out the chain of influences. I hope I don't need to cite examples of this. If Williams wasn't known for working in the dirty, disgusting, worthless, offensive area of music that is film soundtracks, would he be attacked with such self-righteous enthusiasm? I doubt it.

The legal term "plagarism" I think is a red herring, or red Henning, :) - the legal requirements of proving copyright violations have to do with a certain number of bars in which a melody is shown to share the same notes and rhythm as a previously protected work.  That is a high bar and almost no one meets it because it is not hard to avoid the obvious but still be guilty of theft.

What John Williams has done is assume the style, and sometimes more, of Holst and others, Copland is widely stolen from as well by many film composers.  Did Copland care?  Probably not, and he may have felt some pride that his music was linked to wholesome American values.  Don't know.  These thefts by film composers are common - which is why their "art" is a cheaper one as compared to true classical composition.

Williams is not unique.

:)
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2012, 03:43:07 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on May 04, 2012, 03:31:42 AM
"Sparkley vampires SUCK!" consensus amongst sci-fi fanboys. It has nothing to do reason or evidence" - Sorry, but they DO suck, and it has everything to do with good taste and reason.

This touches on a couple of points I want to enlarge on later . . . but in short, no, nobody is taking Williams to court to demonstrate plagiarism in any prosecuble sense; and in line with your observation, it is a matter of artistic integrity and respect.

I love the range of the Williams-fandom resistance!  You have both Poju, who readily owns that Williams pilfered, but who asserts that this infringement is "irrelevant"; and others who are in bland denial that there can be anything to object to.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2012, 03:44:44 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 04, 2012, 03:41:59 AM
Williams is not unique.

Indeed, not unique at all, in kind.

In degree (and in a couple of glaringly egregious instances), he stands apart from the pack
; )
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2012, 03:59:10 AM
Two questions meanwhile, for The Deniers:

1. Per Cato's story (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20456.msg626284.html#msg626284), if seventh-graders twig that Williams got away with something, how do we reconcile that with your assurances that "there's nothing to see here"?

2. Your point is that this is only what all composers do, all the time.  Are there any composers who endorse this view?  If there are, what are their names, please; if not — why do you suppose that is?
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 04, 2012, 04:39:06 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2012, 02:29:34 AM
Thank you for the etc there, truly.  For now I think I have a better idea of the (minority) resistance to the thesis.  Would you expand upon your &c., please?

For all I know, eyeresist claims that Williams is clean, because there is no melodic theft (unlike obvious instances of melodic similarity, like “He's So Fine” and “My Sweet Lord,” e.g.)  Which no one is claiming.

As to your point, A) this poll was to gauge general sentiment, B) I love it when your objection is framed on the lines of "It ought to be easy"!  How easy was the process with the two pop songs I mention above?  About as easy as pie?, C) I can demo the plagiarism, but again [1] we must agree upon terms, so what do you encompass within your "&c." please? [2] and — do you read music notation?

Let me be blunt - if you think Williams plagiarized, can you provide an example? Be as technical as you like.

The problem with your question, in my opinion, is that it is asking for an opinion, when none is needed. It is either true or not.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leon on May 04, 2012, 05:52:50 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 04, 2012, 04:39:06 AM
Let me be blunt - if you think Williams plagiarized, can you provide an example? Be as technical as you like.

The problem with your question, in my opinion, is that it is asking for an opinion, when none is needed. It is either true or not.

I think you are missing the point.  The question is not if Williams meets the legal definition of plagarism, the question is what are we to make of a composer who writes music of a nature which is almost a wholesale appropriation of another composer's orchestral style by imitating the melodic and harmonic content and dynamic effects. 
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2012, 05:58:07 AM
And, we go back to the videotape:

Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2012, 03:43:07 AM
This touches on a couple of points I want to enlarge on later . . . but in short, no, nobody is taking Williams to court to demonstrate plagiarism in any prosecuble sense; and in line with your observation, it is a matter of artistic integrity and respect.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2012, 06:03:15 AM
Neal, if your only interest is whether a legal action of plagiarism obtains, that were good to know; it is now clear that what concerns most of the rest of us here, just don't matter to you.

Nor need everything in the wide world matter to any one soul, to be sure.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2012, 06:12:00 AM
Personally, and to be blunt, I fail to see why you should demand that of me.  Are you a judge?  Do I reside in your jurisdiction?  Are only those musical quarrels which are actual civil or criminal infractions valid questions for discussion?
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 04, 2012, 06:22:13 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2012, 06:12:00 AM
Personally, and to be blunt, I fail to see why you should demand that of me.  Are you a judge?  Do I reside in your jurisdiction?  Are only those musical quarrels which are actual civil or criminal infractions valid questions for discussion?
Karl - you started the thread with plagiarism. If that is not the way you want to go - no problem. I'd be happy to discuss how Williams clearly sounds like many other composers in some places. There is no shame in this and I find that interesting. But I like to talk to specifics, as generalities have led us in circles in the past on this subject.

Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2012, 07:19:02 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2012, 06:26:14 PM
I think John Williams and pretty much every film composer are thieves in some way or another. They're not being paid to express their deepest, darkest feelings, they're being paid to express what is on the film screen.

And why is that thievery, exactly?
Title: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leo K. on May 04, 2012, 07:22:38 AM
I personally have no resistance to Williams' music sounding like various romantic composers. The composers he   sounds like have all passed on, and no monetary or legacy of said romantic composers are lost as a result.

I myself, as an appropriation and conceptual artist, have taken the first three movements of Beethoven's 5th for my own first symphony! So, this kind of absurdism is my bread and butter :) but not that of John Williams, who I have always loved since I was a kid.




Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2012, 07:26:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2012, 07:19:02 AM
And why is that thievery, exactly?

I understand classical composers have borrowed from each other from time to time, but what Williams does is makes his brand of mediocrity sound like x composer and then all of sudden you have bankable idea. He's not doing it for artistic reasons, but because he has no good ideas of his own.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2012, 07:29:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2012, 07:18:30 PM
I view all film music as music not to be taken seriously even Shostakovich's. That's my opinion of it. I take it with a grain of salt. Shostakovich wrote film music because he had NO choice!!!

You're making the matter too simple, John, though of course you are entitled to dislike whatever music you choose, for whatever reasons please you.

(BTW, I take it that you don't at all like Prokofiev's Aleksandr Nevsky, then? As film music, as you say, it is not to be taken seriously . . . .)

Late enough in Shostakovich's career that I do not think coercion could have played any role, the scores for the Kozintsev Shakespeare films are masterly, by any measure.

And in all events, my point is:  both Prokofiev & Shostakovich are outstanding examples of composers who produce work of exceptional artistic integrity, even in the face of limited choice.  The limitation of choice is not, therefore, necessarily any impediment to the creation of world-class artwork
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2012, 07:31:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 04, 2012, 07:26:23 AM
I understand classical composers have borrowed from each other from time to time, but what Williams does is makes his brand of mediocrity sound like x composer and then all of sudden you have bankable idea. He's not doing it for artistic reasons, but because he has no good ideas of his own.

Well, I am apt to agree with you there, John. But you seemed to be suggesting that the mere act of writing a film score is thievery. I am relieved to find that I mistook you there.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2012, 07:34:32 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 04, 2012, 07:22:38 AM
I personally have no resistance to Williams' music sounding like various romantic composers. The composers he sounds like have all passed on, and no monetary or legacy of said romantic composers are lost as a result.

Just in case you are at all in earnest . . . that is not the quarrel here; the quarrel is film cues which are bald recycling of numbers from the literature.  The redress would not be, paying those composers' estates damages, but doing his own work.

; )
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2012, 07:43:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2012, 07:31:37 AM
Well, I am apt to agree with you there, John. But you seemed to be suggesting that the mere act of writing a film score is thievery. I am relieved to find that I mistook you there.

No, there are good, original film scores like Morricone's The Mission for example which I recall being very personal, heartfelt music, but then there's Williams brand of kitsch which doesn't sound original or emotional at all and reveals very little about the man himself.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2012, 08:20:25 AM
Oh, I have to contest that for two reasons.

1. My disappointment with the specific rip-offs of Holst & Stravinsky, e.g., aside — the man is capable of writing well, and originally, albeit in perhaps a small way.  The main title music for Star Wars was a thrilling, and original, overture to one of the landmark cinematic experiences in our lifetime.  The marches for Raiders of the Lost Ark and for 1941 (big thanks to Sarge for putting this movie on my radar) are good, solid work; the man inarguably earned his money with the product, there.

2. I don't think it a fair dismissal of music for film, that it doesn't sound emotional (it needn't in all cases), nor that it reveals little about the composer (what does that mean, anyway?)
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leon on May 04, 2012, 08:39:51 AM
I think John Williams is capable of writing moving and inspired music and on that count, for me, his best score was for Shindler's List, which I also consider Spielberg's best film.

But he (not unlike many others) also writes trite and highly derivative music generally for action sequences.  But, I am not a fan of action movies, in general, mainly for all the reasons, including the music, that make them so popular.

:D
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 04, 2012, 09:02:54 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 04, 2012, 07:43:34 AM
... but then there's Williams brand of kitsch which doesn't sound original or emotional at all and reveals very little about the man himself.
I am interested in the bolded part. Do you think that music necessarily reveals something about the composer? I am not trying to suggest it does not, but rather does not always do so. Does every Mozart or Haydn or Beethoven symphony reveal something about the composer? I'm not so sure. But I admit, it is not a theme I have really considered much.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Elnimio on May 04, 2012, 09:40:53 AM
John Williams' non-film music is quite original, IMO
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leon on May 04, 2012, 09:46:21 AM
I think John Williams reveals quite a bit about himself to the extent he liberally borrows from classical composers as he puts together the music he supplies for the films he works on.

:)
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2012, 10:08:17 AM
Quote from: Elnimio on May 04, 2012, 09:40:53 AM
John Williams' non-film music is quite original, IMO

What I've heard has struck me as meh, which is to say, if anyone other than a fellow who had already made a huge name for himself in scoring films had written it, it would never see the light of day.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 04, 2012, 10:42:04 AM
A.I. and Minority Report are among my favorite scores by John Williams. A.I. particularly is amazing movie music (amazing movie too). Just listen to Track 8 "Stored Memories and Monica's Theme". Amazing!  :o

Music similar to these scores would have made GREAT Pluto to "complete" Holst's The Planets.


Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leon on May 04, 2012, 10:51:19 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 04, 2012, 10:42:04 AM
A.I. and Minority Report are among my favorite scores by John Williams. A.I. particularly is amazing movie music (amazing movie too). Just listen to Track 8 "Stored Memories and Monica's Theme". Amazing!  :o

Music similar to these scores would have made GREAT Pluto to "complete" Holst's The Planets.

The track you suggest from A.I. is okay, but for that kind of contemplative vocal effect I much prefer Clannad's theme from Harry's Game - towards the end when it goes childlike and angelic, I lost interest.

The Minority Report I don't know.

:)
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Cato on May 04, 2012, 11:24:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2012, 10:08:17 AM
What I've heard has struck me as meh, which is to say, if anyone other than a fellow who had already made a huge name for himself in scoring films had written it, it would never see the light of day.

That was my reaction as well to the (admittedly few) things of his I have heard, which were not connected to a movie.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 04, 2012, 07:43:34 AM
No, there are good, original film scores like Morricone's The Mission for example which I recall being very personal, heartfelt music, but then there's Williams brand of kitsch which doesn't sound original or emotional at all and reveals very little about the man himself.

I suspect you mean that certain composers symbolize their personalities somehow in their music?  Beethoven's stormy dissatisfaction and impatience as well as his nobility "heard" in e.g. the Seventh Symphony?

Composers can also mask their personalities through their music, or neither.  Having just listened to Ockeghem's Missa Prolationum and some of the Marian Motets, I wonder if he thought that his personality somehow could come through the music? 

What kind of personality might one deduce from the music of Gesualdo if one could be kept in the dark about his biography?

So I am not sure that composers must absolutely reveal a personality type through the music they compose.  And I am not sure that movie music is the appropriate genre to do so, if they wished.

If John Williams has a "personal sound" at all, maybe it is to be found here:

The opening "overture" to Catch Me If You Can marvelously fits the cartoon credits hinting at the plot of the movie.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Cato on May 05, 2012, 11:30:34 AM
We were watching The Lion King today and I wondered at times: is the score by Hans Zimmer or is it a collaboration by Schumann, Prokofiev, and a few others?   ;D

A whiff of Mozart's Requiem during Moufasa's death via stampede, and then a whiff of Prokofiev during the chase scene afterward.

Plagiarism, homage, or just a wink-wink-nudge-nudge to the musically knowledgeable in the audience?
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: eyeresist on May 06, 2012, 05:58:16 PM
Quote from: Arnold on May 04, 2012, 09:46:21 AMI think John Williams reveals quite a bit about himself to the extent he liberally borrows from classical composers as he puts together the music he supplies for the films he works on.

My understanding is that this is the way most film composers work, simply because of time demands: they are shown the completed film and given only a few weeks to write (and record!) an hour or more of music. The most efficient way of working here is to say "Well, I'll have 20 yards of Copland here, a burst of Wagner, then a stretch of Mars-like ostinato", and flavour it with individuating melodic elements. They usually work with a couple of orchestrators in order to get the work into performable shape. Occasionally they get a longer period to work (Polidouris's Starship Troopers score). Very occasionally they are touched by genius (Herrmann's Hitchcock scores). Of course working in this way has a deleterious effect on the creative muscles.

This Wikipedia page give a useful summary of what's involved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_score

I'll credit Williams for having a recognisable "Williams sound" (which he doesn't always use).


Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2012, 06:12:00 AMPersonally, and to be blunt, I fail to see why you should demand that of me.  Are you a judge?  Do I reside in your jurisdiction?  Are only those musical quarrels which are actual civil or criminal infractions valid questions for discussion?
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2012, 02:29:34 AM C) I can demo the plagiarism, but again [1] we must agree upon terms, so what do you encompass within your "&c." please? [2] and — do you read music notation?

We are not disputing the stylistic debt Williams owes to Holst and others. However, if you want to wave the "p" word around, you should be prepared to back it up with proof, the burden of which lies with you. "It's obvious" and "everybody knows" isn't enough.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 07, 2012, 04:33:25 AM
Thanks for offering your opinion.
Title: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leo K. on May 07, 2012, 06:55:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2012, 07:34:32 AM
Just in case you are at all in earnest . . . that is not the quarrel here; the quarrel is film cues which are bald recycling of numbers from the literature.  The redress would not be, paying those composers' estates damages, but doing his own work.

; )

Ah, I see, I had the wrong idea :)

Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: North Star on May 08, 2012, 03:47:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2012, 08:20:25 AM
Oh, I have to contest that for two reasons.

1. The main title music for Star Wars was a thrilling, and original, overture to one of the landmark cinematic experiences in our lifetime.
Ahemm.... Korngold....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgZAZJGziFk
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 08, 2012, 04:29:31 AM
Thank you, I suppose! ; )
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: starrynight on May 12, 2012, 05:14:09 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 03, 2012, 08:32:10 AM
My post was in response to the idea that Holst ought naturally to be thrilled that Williams adapted his music, or at least, heavily incorporated elements from it, for a popular movie. 

However, if Stravinsky was not so humbled by being a part of a popular movie and had the chutzpah to gripe at how his music was used, and he was aware of the fact his music was being used, then all the more is it reasonable to assume Holst might not be pleased at Williams' appropriation when he no choice in the matter.

:)

Not all composers have the ego of an Igor Stravinsky.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 12, 2012, 06:25:53 AM
Quote from: James on May 12, 2012, 06:10:19 AM
And this is backed up by his incredibly liberating & fertile musical imagination, artistic integrity ..  staggering genius/talent. Which none of these film guys (i.e. Williams) even approach or will ever come close to.
That's true. Williams is far ahead of them. :)
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: eyeresist on May 13, 2012, 06:52:40 PM
 ::)  ::)  ::)
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: mszczuj on May 13, 2012, 11:25:07 PM
Quote from: North Star on May 08, 2012, 03:47:26 AM
Ahemm.... Korngold....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgZAZJGziFk


Yes! This really shows how good composer Williams is.

His main force is for me his ability to use shamelessly simple themes in this fat neoromantic orchestral sauce in which everyone else tries to navigate by infinite melodic meanders. Three notes and we are down, four notes and we are high - and seven miles away.

May be it is not great art, may be everyone can do like that - but actually Williams do it, and it works. I'm not absolutely sure if greater composers can manage it with such practical elegance.

No wonder you probably can find his motifs elsewhere - there is noway to invent two note motif. But you recognize them only beceause Williams had used them in his absolutely effective manner.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 14, 2012, 02:22:49 AM
Quote from: mszczuj on May 13, 2012, 11:25:07 PM
. . . But you recognize them only beceause Williams had used them in his absolutely effective manner.

Not at all true in the case of the Holst and Stravinsky examples. Just saying.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: mszczuj on May 14, 2012, 04:37:24 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 14, 2012, 02:22:49 AM
Not at all true in the case of the Holst and Stravinsky examples. Just saying.

It was about Korngold example mainly. The 84th twist of melody of Kings Row was exactly the same as beginning sounds of Star Wars theme. So what? For another possible short main motif there is for sure some matching example of 84th twist of melody in other Hollywod film music.

But I don't know what do you mean by Stravinsky example?
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 14, 2012, 08:43:44 AM
Quote from: mszczuj on May 13, 2012, 11:25:07 PMThis really shows how good composer Williams is.

::) Give me a break. Williams is not a good composer. His "art" is targeted at the lowest common denominator and for people who think they know classical music. The same thing with "jazz" musicians like Kenny "I have no talent" G or even a lot of George Benson's pap. This music is geared towards people who don't have a clue about music and are completely clueless about jazz. As I mentioned, there's some good film music out there, but I think Williams isn't a good film composer. He's just after the big bucks. There's nothing artful about his music. Give me Goldsmith and Morricone any day of the week.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 14, 2012, 10:34:03 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 14, 2012, 08:43:44 AM
Williams is not a good composer.
True- he is a great composer. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 14, 2012, 08:43:44 AM
His "art" is targeted at the lowest common denominator and for people who think they know classical music. The same thing with "jazz" musicians like Kenny "I have no talent" G or even a lot of George Benson's pap. This music is geared towards people who don't have a clue about music and are completely clueless about jazz.
They must have some talent. But I do agree that they are geared toward a different segment. Is there shame in this? But saying they are "targeted at the lowest common denominator and for people who think they know classical music" - well I don't think he sits down and thinks this when he writes music. I think you are projecting something that simply is not there. I could accept criticisms about the music, but he is not exctly doing what those others are doing. And what about light music? Does you think that falls in the same category?
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 14, 2012, 11:33:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 14, 2012, 08:43:44 AM
::) Give me a break. Williams is not a good composer. His "art" is targeted at the lowest common denominator and for people who think they know classical music. The same thing with "jazz" musicians like Kenny "I have no talent" G or even a lot of George Benson's pap. This music is geared towards people who don't have a clue about music and are completely clueless about jazz. As I mentioned, there's some good film music out there, but I think Williams isn't a good film composer. He's just after the big bucks. There's nothing artful about his music. Give me Goldsmith and Morricone any day of the week.

You give me a break! John Williams is among the greatest movie composers ever if not THE GREATEST. As a classical music composer he isn't that great but man he knows how to compose music for movies!  :o

American Film Institute has selected the Soundtrack of Star Wars the greatest American soundtrack ever.

Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 14, 2012, 11:34:55 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 14, 2012, 11:33:15 AM
American Film Institute has selected the Soundtrack of Star Wars the greatest American soundtrack ever.

You cannot mean it.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 14, 2012, 01:27:06 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 14, 2012, 10:34:03 AM
True- he is a great composer. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusionThey must have some talent. But I do agree that they are geared toward a different segment. Is there shame in this? But saying they are "targeted at the lowest common denominator and for people who think they know classical music" - well I don't think he sits down and thinks this when he writes music. I think you are projecting something that simply is not there. I could accept criticisms about the music, but he is not exctly doing what those others are doing. And what about light music? Does you think that falls in the same category?

You're only reading what you want to read in my criticism of Williams and not actually understanding what I'm telling you. You're probably right that Williams doesn't aim towards the lowest common denominator (aka people who actually buy into his brand of kitsch) because he aims for something even lower: money. He isn't even a decent composer, he's a complete hack and Hollywood lackey that's ready to pounce on whatever pile of cash comes his way.

As for light music, well it all depends on who's composing it. I'll take Shostakovich's light music over John Williams bile any day of the week.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: eyeresist on May 14, 2012, 06:31:58 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 14, 2012, 01:27:06 PMYou're only reading what you want to read in my criticism of Williams and not actually understanding what I'm telling you. You're probably right that Williams doesn't aim towards the lowest common denominator (aka people who actually buy into his brand of kitsch) because he aims for something even lower: money. He isn't even a decent composer, he's a complete hack and Hollywood lackey that's ready to pounce on whatever pile of cash comes his way.

As for light music, well it all depends on who's composing it. I'll take Shostakovich's light music over John Williams bile any day of the week.

I think you're making the same mistake Henk is making in another thread, mistaking a moral intent that you have imposed on the composer for the music itself. "Bile" is in no way a serious artistic criticism!
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 14, 2012, 07:35:46 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 14, 2012, 06:31:58 PM
I think you're making the same mistake Henk is making in another thread, mistaking a moral intent that you have imposed on the composer for the music itself. "Bile" is in no way a serious artistic criticism!

The only mistake I have made in regards to John Williams was actually listening to one of his film scores! :D
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 14, 2012, 09:23:39 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 14, 2012, 01:27:06 PM
You're only reading what you want to read in my criticism of Williams and not actually understanding what I'm telling you. You're probably right that Williams doesn't aim towards the lowest common denominator (aka people who actually buy into his brand of kitsch) because he aims for something even lower: money. He isn't even a decent composer, he's a complete hack and Hollywood lackey that's ready to pounce on whatever pile of cash comes his way.

As for light music, well it all depends on who's composing it. I'll take Shostakovich's light music over John Williams bile any day of the week.
He composes for money and thus is completely despicable? Unless independently wealthy, this accounts for pretty much every composer in history. By light music, I was really referring more to people like Joyce, Goodwin, Wood, Coates, etc.

Quote from: James on May 14, 2012, 02:07:59 PM
He's a commercial Hollywood showbiz oriented writer .. if it's light entertainment your after you can do so much better.

Yea .. but to folks who are really into music, his composing ain't that special at all. Let's be real.
Well, I am into music, and I thoroughly enjoy his work. You may not like my taste, but I find his music quite engaging. That's real.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 14, 2012, 09:41:36 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 14, 2012, 09:23:39 PMHe composes for money and thus is completely despicable? Unless independently wealthy, this accounts for pretty much every composer in history. By light music, I was really referring more to people like Joyce, Goodwin, Wood, Coates, etc.

Williams composing for large sums of money is only one reason why I dislike him, the other reason, being the most obvious I think, is his lack of ability as a composer. There are composers that actually wrote good film music, then there's people like John Williams.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 14, 2012, 10:14:33 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 14, 2012, 09:41:36 PM
Williams composing for large sums of money is only one reason why I dislike him, the other reason, being the most obvious I think, is his lack of ability as a composer. There are composers that actually wrote good film music, then there's people like John Williams.
You don't like the opening to Star Wars (main theme) or the Empire Strikes Back march? How about the opening to Saving Private Ryan or the E.T. theme?
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: eyeresist on May 14, 2012, 10:25:21 PM
Give it up, man. There's no reasoning with him on this.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2012, 02:33:51 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 14, 2012, 10:25:21 PM
Give it up, man. There's no reasoning with him on this.

In this forum discussing film music and its composers is like sex, politics and religion at the dinner table. It only leads to frustration, anger and indigestion  :D  I long ago gave up participating in threads on this topic. By the way, I'm a John Williams fan (especially love Star Wars, Superman, The Cowboys, The Reivers) but I won't try to justify my enthusiasm here or vote in the poll.

Sarge
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 15, 2012, 03:26:37 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 14, 2012, 10:25:21 PM
Give it up, man. There's no reasoning with him on this.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2012, 02:33:51 AM
In this forum discussing film music and its composers is like sex, politics and religion at the dinner table.

Sarge
I am only starting to understand this - what can I say, I'm slow! :)
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 15, 2012, 03:40:53 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 14, 2012, 10:25:21 PM
Give it up, man. There's no reasoning with him on this.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2012, 02:33:51 AM
In this forum discussing film music and its composers is like sex, politics and religion at the dinner table. It only leads to frustration, anger and indigestion  :D  I long ago gave up participating in threads on this topic. By the way, I'm a John Williams fan (especially love Star Wars, Superman, The Cowboys, The Reivers) but I won't try to justify my enthusiasm here or vote in the poll.

Sarge

The irrational rant which has recently dominated notwithstanding – since I started the thread, I want to make a few things clear.

My core interest here is compositional and musical, and I created the poll out of curiosity whether the fans of Jn Williams would entertain a compositional/musical question about his process.  The poll's results have been perfectly satisfactory in this regard.

As to some of the ancillary notions which have cropped up:

1.   Call this obvious, but the fact that Williams was paid (and paid well) for his work (nor the fact that his work garnered awards), is not of itself any indication of the quality of the work.  That is, taking those facts as proof either that his work is worthless, or that it is great, is about equally pointless.
2.   Williams is undeniably talented. Personally, I am not sure that I consider him the "greatest" among those who have written for film, but (a) the case can be made, and (b) he is certainly many cuts above the 'worst."
3.   No one who finds enjoyment in Williams's work need "justify" that to anyone else.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 15, 2012, 05:01:33 AM
Quote from: James on May 15, 2012, 04:53:33 AM
I question to what degree; because you are very obviously confusing light showbiz commercial entertainment with the real stuff.

You obviously imagine that there is some hermetic divide between light music and "the real stuff," an imaginary divide which you've never satisfactorily defined, of course.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 15, 2012, 05:40:26 AM
Quote from: James on May 15, 2012, 05:17:19 AM
Let's use my exact wording, I said 'light showbiz commercial entertainment' ..

So you did.  Your exact wording does not define the matter, though;  and I did not so much "misquote" you, as prune your remarks of irrelevant pejoritaves.  In reverse order:

1. The relation between Art and Entertainment is an interesting one, but (a) not anywhere near so clear as you are fond to imagine, nor (b) is the relation one of mutual exclusion.

2. As Neal trenchantly observed above: except for the rare instances when an artist is independently wealthy, there is always a question of how the artist earns tradeable goods or currency; and so the vast majority of artwork is "commercial."

So neither of those adjectives is cut-&-dried;  and therefore of no service to the present discussion.

3. As for "showbiz," this has been part of the Western musical world since the Florentine camarate invented opera at the turn of the 17th century.

You come closer to the truth in your last clause: the matter before us is one of spectra, not of hermetic divisions.
Title: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leo K. on May 15, 2012, 07:16:30 AM
What's wrong with writing for cash? I am all about self-promotion and getting paid when I can. I have to feed my family, I don't live in an ivory tower like others can afford and enjoy :) so I don't care if John Williams does.

I like what Sarge said, and guess I'll leave it at that :)

Title: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leo K. on May 15, 2012, 07:21:38 AM
Quote from: James on May 15, 2012, 06:24:58 AM
... there is a huge difference there between a commercial product and the real concrete artistic music making

How? John Adams gets paid too. Igor Stravinsky made as much as John Williams, if not more!

Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leon on May 15, 2012, 07:51:23 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 15, 2012, 07:16:30 AM
What's wrong with writing for cash? I am all about self-promotion and getting paid when I can. I have to feed my family, I don't live in an ivory tower like others can afford and enjoy :) so I don't care if John Williams does.

I like what Sarge said, and guess I'll leave it at that :)

Agreed.  Willie Nelson is reported to have said "I do it for the love but I'm not above the money". 

There is an irony, in that, "professional" musicians/composers, i.e. those who are successful enough to make a living from their art, are generally respected more than "mere" amateurs.  However, then there is the criticism that they are sell-outs if their music is not thought of as "artsy" enough.

There was hardly a more ambitious self-marketer than Karlheinz Stockhausen. 

Just because a composer such as John Williams has made a lucrative living from his composing for films does not necessarily mean that his concern for the quality of his craft is less than composers like John Adams, Philip Glass or Charles Wuorinen.

That said, it is worthwhile to note that John Williams chose to write music for films  (not an easy profession to break into and become highly successful) and not dedicate himself trying to obtain commissions for symphonic works or operas, where the artisitic goals and opportunities are arguably of higher level than with music for film.

;)
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Sammy on May 15, 2012, 09:01:45 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 14, 2012, 10:14:33 PM

You don't like the opening to Star Wars (main theme) or the Empire Strikes Back march? How about the opening to Saving Private Ryan or the E.T. theme?

I have to be honest here.  I've seen each of the above movies and remember nothing about the music (bad or good).
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 15, 2012, 10:25:40 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 14, 2012, 01:27:06 PM
I'll take Shostakovich's light music over John Williams bile any day of the week.

Maybe but how would Shostakovich's light music work in Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Memoirs of a Geisha or Jurassic Park? Comparing Shostakovich's light music and John Williams' movie music is comparing apples and oranges. Doesn't make much sense because Shostakovich didn't compose music for Minority Report. John Williams did.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 15, 2012, 10:31:31 AM
John Williams makes big money because he is one of the best movie composers out there. His scores make the movies better. It's the same with star actors. They earn even 10 times more than John Williams per movie. Are they acting just for the money? Maybe they are but so what? They are stars and people want to see them on silver screen.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:32:50 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 14, 2012, 10:14:33 PM

You don't like the opening to Star Wars (main theme) or the Empire Strikes Back march? How about the opening to Saving Private Ryan or the E.T. theme?

I'm in a better mood today, so let me say that it is in my opinion that film music isn't something that I find substantially rewarding. As I have mentioned before, there were many composers who wrote film music because they had no choice financially (i. e. Shostakovich being the greatest example). I do enjoy some of his film music but it's not something I return to often. The same goes for RVW or Honegger who both wrote some very good music in this medium. John Williams is cut from a different kind of cloth altogether as are Morricone and Goldsmith. They are film composers. As innovative or creative as their scores may be, and I certainly do like many of these guys' scores, I don't take them that seriously because I don't view film music as a serious art. Again, this is just my opinion, but as for light music composers, well, again, they're cut from a very different cloth than many serious classical composers. It's all about perception and really about what sounds good to you. Like Karl said, nobody here needs to justify why they enjoy John Williams' music. If you like it, then that's great, but there are people who will not like it, and I'm one of them.

I've seen the original Star Wars trilogy probably a thousand times, but it's not the music I remember, it's the characters, the story, and the special effects. The same goes with any movie I watched. I don't watch a movie for the music. It does help enhance the movie experience by having music, but, again, I'm not watching the movie to rock out to the music.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:38:22 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 15, 2012, 10:31:31 AM
John Williams makes big money because he is one of the best movie composers out there. His scores make the movies better. It's the same with star actors. They earn even 10 times more than John Williams per movie. Are they acting just for the money? Maybe they are but so what? They are stars and people want to see them on silver screen.

Just breathe in and out, everything will be okay. Not everybody likes John Williams and you shouldn't let it bother you. You really don't need to defend him, do you? People can say whatever they want to about a composer I like, it makes no difference to me anymore. My opinion of Williams has come from listening to many of his scores like Jaws, Jurassic Park, all of the Star Wars original trilogy, and Schindler's List. I'm not completely oblivious to the man's work. He just works in a medium that I think has been better served by other composers.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 15, 2012, 10:39:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:32:50 AMI've seen the original Star Wars trilogy probably a thousand times, but it's not the music I remember, it's the characters, the story, and the special effects. The same goes with any movie I watched. I don't watch a movie for the music. It does help enhance the movie experience by having music, but, again, I'm not watching the movie to rock out to the music.

You'd be surprised if you saw Star Wars without music. Then you would understand what good movie music means and you wouldn't take it's effect for granted.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 15, 2012, 10:40:18 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:32:50 AM
. . . I do enjoy some of his [Shostakovich's] film music but it's not something I return to often.

But, John: Have you seen the Kozintsev Shakespeare films?

(FWIW, I think more highly of Williams's scores than of Morricone's.)
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 15, 2012, 10:39:06 AM
You'd be surprised if you saw Star Wars without music. Then you would understand what good movie music means and you wouldn't take it's effect for granted.

Again, you're just defending Williams because you think you have to. Trust me, you're going to feel the same way about him regardless of what I or anyone else has said negatively about him anyway, so do us both a favor and just stop debating with me, because you're not going to change my mind about him.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 15, 2012, 10:42:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:38:22 AM

You really don't need to defend him, do you?
Of course I don't. Why do you need to put him down?
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:43:58 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 15, 2012, 10:40:18 AM
But, John: Have you seen the Kozintsev Shakespeare films?

(FWIW, I think more highly of Williams's scores than of Morricone's.)


Can't say that I have, Karl. I'm really not a big movie buff anyway. I'm not sure if I told you this, but the last movie I saw in the theater was The Lord of the Rings: Two Towers.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:46:54 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 15, 2012, 10:42:48 AM
Of course I don't. Why do you need to put him down?

It's not that I feel the need to put him down, it's just that I think it's funny that so many people just put the guy up on a pedestal like he's some kind of god.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 15, 2012, 10:51:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:43:58 AM
Can't say that I have, Karl. I'm really not a big movie buff anyway. I'm not sure if I told you this, but the last movie I saw in the theater was The Lord of the Rings: Two Towers.

A movie that suffers in my opinion from mediocre music score.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:53:18 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 15, 2012, 10:51:06 AM
A movie that suffers in my opinion from mediocre music score.

The music doesn't change or alter my view of a film and if it does, then I probably shouldn't be watching it in the first place. It's the stories and characters (plus their own development) that I'm interested in when watching a film.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 15, 2012, 10:54:27 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 15, 2012, 10:51:06 AM
A movie that suffers in my opinion from mediocre music score.

Well, but why do you think less well of Shore's score here, than of Williams, Poju?
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 15, 2012, 10:55:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:46:54 AM
It's not that I feel the need to put him down, it's just that I think it's funny that so many people just put the guy up on a pedestal like he's some kind of god.

He's no god, just one of the best movie composers out there with a phenomenal career. People like that are very often put up on a pedestal.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 15, 2012, 10:58:08 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 15, 2012, 10:54:27 AM
Well, but why do you think less well of Shore's score here, than of Williams, Poju?

Isn't that obvious? Because I find it inferior.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 15, 2012, 11:05:33 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 15, 2012, 10:58:08 AM
Isn't that obvious? Because I find it inferior.

Silly me!  And here I thought there might be musical reasons which you could discuss, and which some besides myself would have found interesting. But no! You just opine that the one is inferior to the other.

Sure, I should have guessed . . . .
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 15, 2012, 11:31:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 15, 2012, 11:05:33 AM
Silly me!  And here I thought there might be musical reasons which you could discuss, and which some besides myself would have found interesting. But no! You just opine that the one is inferior to the other.

Sure, I should have guessed . . . .


I'll make this clear: I don't have music education to be able to discuss music theory. Music has an effect on me and based on that I evaluate it in terms like "bad", "rhythmic", "melodic", "good", "relaxing", "simple", "complex" etc. Music theory for the most part is too difficult for me to understand. I have tried and given up. Who the hell can figure out all those augmented chords and stuff??? Math is easy compared to music theory! I understand chords mathematically based on how the frequencies of notes relate to each other (consonance/dissonance) but musicians like to name things with confusing names that only gives me a headache.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: mszczuj on May 15, 2012, 12:15:35 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:53:18 AM
The music doesn't change or alter my view of a film and if it does, then I probably shouldn't be watching it in the first place. It's the stories and characters (plus their own development) that I'm interested in when watching a film.

But, you know, they live in the music, the characters, as all we do.

Do you like Peter and the Wolf? Williams is exactly the same kind of music.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: eyeresist on May 16, 2012, 02:08:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 15, 2012, 03:40:53 AMAs to some of the ancillary notions which have cropped up:

1.   Call this obvious, but the fact that Williams was paid (and paid well) for his work (nor the fact that his work garnered awards), is not of itself any indication of the quality of the work.  That is, taking those facts as proof either that his work is worthless, or that it is great, is about equally pointless.
2.   Williams is undeniably talented. Personally, I am not sure that I consider him the "greatest" among those who have written for film, but (a) the case can be made, and (b) he is certainly many cuts above the 'worst."
3.   No one who finds enjoyment in Williams's work need "justify" that to anyone else.

Certainly. I realised eventually that our disagreement was really over the usage of the word "plagiarism", to which I would apply the stricter definition I recall from certain forms I had to sign in academic days....

What is the future of Williams's music? Well, I can imagine in a century's time people buying collections of his hits (Luke & Leia Theme FTW) in the same way we now buy collections of Suppe overtures and Strauss waltzes. The complete scores will remain attached to the films themselves, the best of which I think would be far lesser works without his contribution.


Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:53:18 AMThe music doesn't change or alter my view of a film and if it does, then I probably shouldn't be watching it in the first place. It's the stories and characters (plus their own development) that I'm interested in when watching a film.

No gesamtkunstwerk for MI :).
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2012, 03:53:15 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 16, 2012, 02:08:03 AM
What is the future of Williams's music?

My guess would be, that the continued fame of his work (happily for him) does not rest on its own merits.  As long as the movies are in vew and under discussion, for which he supplied (at the very least) competent and inventive scores, his name will live.

The man is, thus, already immortal.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2012, 05:04:37 AM
Well, you hold onto that hope, James!  I am certain it has not escaped you that Williams is far more famous (and will remain so for a long time) than . . . a certain German composer over whose work you regularly enthuse.  His name escapes me at the moment . . . Van Heusen, was it? ; )
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: starrynight on May 16, 2012, 11:17:02 AM
Quote from: Sammy on May 15, 2012, 09:01:45 AM
I have to be honest here.  I've seen each of the above movies and remember nothing about the music (bad or good).

Probably because you aren't meant to, film music is meant to serve the film more often than stand on its own merit.  In that way it might be similar to some ballet music.  Obviously there can be exceptions in such genres as well, but they aren't perhaps the norm.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: eyeresist on May 16, 2012, 06:27:42 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:32:50 AMI've seen the original Star Wars trilogy probably a thousand times, but it's not the music I remember, it's the characters, the story, and the special effects. The same goes with any movie I watched. I don't watch a movie for the music. It does help enhance the movie experience by having music, but, again, I'm not watching the movie to rock out to the music.

Further thoughts on this: For me the music of a film is as important as the script, the story, the acting and the visual composition. There are a number of films which I think would receive far less regard if not for their scores - but because we are primarily visual (apparently) the sonic aspect tends to be overlooked or downplayed.

The idea of not noticing music seems odd to me. I always notice the music around me, unless it is especially drab and forgettable. It's actually a sort of disability, as I can't help be affected by music whether at parties, cafes, etc. If the music is bad I get irritable and unhappy and wish I could leave - meanwhile the people around me have no idea why I'm reacting so strongly to "only music". Same if I especially like the music - my enthusiastic mood is shared by none around me :(
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 07:27:38 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 16, 2012, 06:27:42 PM
Further thoughts on this: For me the music of a film is as important as the script, the story, the acting and the visual composition. There are a number of films which I think would receive far less regard if not for their scores - but because we are primarily visual (apparently) the sonic aspect tends to be overlooked or downplayed.

The idea of not noticing music seems odd to me. I always notice the music around me, unless it is especially drab and forgettable. It's actually a sort of disability, as I can't help be affected by music whether at parties, cafes, etc. If the music is bad I get irritable and unhappy and wish I could leave - meanwhile the people around me have no idea why I'm reacting so strongly to "only music". Same if I especially like the music - my enthusiastic mood is shared by none around me :(

I never said I didn't notice the music in a film, I said I don't watch a film for the music. To deny that I haven't noticed the soundtrack in any of the films I watched would certainly be a foolish thing to say, because it would be untrue. My whole point is that film music isn't important to me. What is important to one person, doesn't mean a hill of beans to somebody else. This, my friend, is what makes the world go around. This said, I do think there are several film scores that stand up well by themselves but most of these are composed by serious classical composers like RVW, Honegger, Shostakovich, Arnold, and Alwyn. I also like a few scores by Goldsmith and Morricone, but I seldom listen to film music as I put my attention into more serious music.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 17, 2012, 03:51:56 AM
George Lucas says that sound is 50 % of a movie. It's good to remember this wisdom everytime we start watching a movie. It's true that people don't pay much attention to sound while watching a movie but it isn't that hard to start doing so. It's all about attitude. Sound is an excellent way of improving a movie and music is one part (roughly 1/3) of sound in a movie.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2012, 04:03:45 AM
It isn't every day you read George Lucas and wisdom in consecutive sentences.

And there are reasons
; )

That said, Lucas is echoing other and finer directors, in underscoring the important role which the musical soundtrack plays.  The obvious examples are Bernard Herrmann and Shostakovich.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2012, 04:06:55 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 07:27:38 PM
I never said I didn't notice the music in a film, I said I don't watch a film for the music.

And (to be clear), I am not suggesting that you watch Kozintsev's Hamlet and King Lear "for the music," but because they are flat-out great films.  The look of them both is beautiful, the cinematography, acting and score are all exquisite.  And the Russian adaptations of Shakespeare are of historical as well as literary interest.

Although, a case could be made for watching both these "for the music"
; )
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: 71 dB on May 17, 2012, 04:38:45 AM
Quote from: James on May 17, 2012, 04:12:47 AM
He's not meaning music tho or the quality of musical composition; 'sound' entails 'everything' in the audio mix of the film which of course is important

Didn't you notice that I included the remark that music is about 1/3 of sound in a movie?

Quote from: James on May 17, 2012, 04:12:47 AM.. he's talking about the quality and projection of the sound within the theatre space, this is why he was involved with development of the THX system etc. [/font]

Technical quality of reproduction of sound is another thing but Lucas is no less interested about that aspect either. In fact, Lucas has deep undertanding of how technical and artistical sides of art are related. Innovations of stage technology had it's impact on art of Shakespeare, development of oil paint meant dramatic new possibilities for art of painting compared to fresco painting and in our time digital technology gives new possibilies to filmmaking.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 09:06:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2012, 04:06:55 AM
And (to be clear), I am not suggesting that you watch Kozintsev's Hamlet and King Lear "for the music," but because they are flat-out great films.  The look of them both is beautiful, the cinematography, acting and score are all exquisite.  And the Russian adaptations of Shakespeare are of historical as well as literary interest.

Although, a case could be made for watching both these "for the music"
; )

I'm glad you like these movies, Karl, but Shakespeare really isn't my thing. In fact, I don't think I've ever voluntarily read any Shakespeare at all. I remember reading his plays in high school and really hating every minute of it. I just don't relate to it at all. Now, give me some Edgar Allan Poe or Walt Whitman and I'm a happy camper. :)
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2012, 09:21:03 AM
Well, if you don't dig Shakespeare, they won't be your bag at all. You are released!
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2012, 09:22:03 AM
Though I almost cannot fathom anyone not getting a charge out of Shakespeare : )
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Sammy on May 17, 2012, 09:33:16 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 09:06:39 AM
I'm glad you like these movies, Karl, but Shakespeare really isn't my thing. In fact, I don't think I've ever voluntarily read any Shakespeare at all. I remember reading his plays in high school and really hating every minute of it. I just don't relate to it at all.

Same here.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 17, 2012, 09:54:45 AM
Quote from: Sammy on May 17, 2012, 09:33:16 AM
Same here.

Well, plays are not written to be read, but to be performed, so yours is not an unusual attitude, I think. Anyway, I have highly enjoyed the reading of some plays, for instance, the frivolous Oscar Wilde, who is amazingly readable even for non-native English readers.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leon on May 17, 2012, 10:01:52 AM
Shakespeare is mandatory, IMO, one of a handful of universal artists.  His plays have been a constant in my life, reading and re-reading them again and again.  I don't have the opportunity to see them performed as much as I'd like, but spent a good part of my earlier life involved in staging them.  However, I can't say that I am a fan of operatic adaptations of the plays.

:)
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2012, 10:02:21 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 17, 2012, 09:54:45 AM
Well, plays are not written to be read, but to be performed . . . .

Exactly.  I've known many who hated their obligatory high school Shakespeare reading, but who as mature adults found watching the plays staged or filmed an entirely different (and a thoroughly enjoyable) matter.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2012, 10:05:50 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 17, 2012, 10:01:52 AM
Shakespeare is mandatory, IMO, one of a handful of universal artists.  His plays have been a constant in my life, reading and re-reading them again and again.  I don't have the opportunity to see them performed as much as I'd like, but spent a good part of my earlier life involved in staging them.  However, I can't say that I am a fan of operatic adaptations of the plays.

:)

Viz. one of a handful of universal artists . . . my exact point in expressing my difficulty in conceiving of anyone not liking Shakespeare.  But of course, on GMG we've met folks who cannot relate to Mozart (e.g.) . . . I know it is possible, I just don't fathom how.

Regarding your last, though . . . have you given Britten's A Midsummer Night's Dream a shot yet?
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Leon on May 17, 2012, 10:35:12 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2012, 10:05:50 AM
Viz. one of a handful of universal artists . . . my exact point in expressing my difficulty in conceiving of anyone not liking Shakespeare.  But of course, on GMG we've met folks who cannot relate to Mozart (e.g.) . . . I know it is possible, I just don't fathom how.

Regarding your last, though . . . have you given Britten's A Midsummer Night's Dream a shot yet?


I've got a recording of the Britten work, but I always feel that when adapting the plays to opera too much is lost of the original, including that work.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2012, 10:42:44 AM
That's fair.  Operas based on the plays, I consider in a somewhat different 'space'.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: eyeresist on May 17, 2012, 05:46:22 PM
Quote from: Arnold on May 17, 2012, 10:35:12 AMI've got a recording of the Britten work, but I always feel that when adapting the plays to opera too much is lost of the original, including that work.

This is something I've been thinking about - in the same way some people see movie music as inherently inferior, for me opera is a trashy genre. Because the music is subservient to the story, there is no structural integration beyond recurring themes, certainly nothing comparable to sonata form or fugue. (Hindemith's Der Harmonie der Welt is an obvious exception.)

Also, most opera's plots are primitive in literary terms.


Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2012, 04:03:45 AMThat said, Lucas is echoing other and finer directors, in underscoring the important role which the musical soundtrack plays.  The obvious examples are Bernard Herrmann and Shostakovich.

The driving scenes in Psycho would be boring if not for Herrmann, whose music gives the action psychic import.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 06:49:52 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 17, 2012, 05:46:22 PM
This is something I've been thinking about - in the same way some people see movie music as inherently inferior, for me opera is a trashy genre. Because the music is subservient to the story, there is no structural integration beyond recurring themes, certainly nothing comparable to sonata form or fugue. (Hindemith's Der Harmonie der Welt is an obvious exception.)

Also, most opera's plots are primitive in literary terms.

My, my, my...I'm inclined to agree with you about the music being almost an afterthought in an opera BUT Wagner has made me appreciate the genre. Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle is another opera I love. The music behind the voices is so extraordinary that I don't pay attention to the singing, but with a movie, which, let's be honest, is completely different medium of expression altogether, I can easily focus on the story at hand and tune the music out. An opera's story has never interested me, it's the music itself that I'm fascinated by. What's interesting is people ask me why don't I just buy, for example, a recording of Wagner's preludes and overtures  and don't worry with the full work. The main reason is because overtures and preludes don't contain all the music of an opera. The music that accompanies the voices is still an integral and vital part of the work.

P.S. Speaking of operas, have you ever heard Langgaard's Antikrist? All I have to say is the music will blow you out of here. The story doesn't make any sense to me, but my goodness --- THE MUSIC!!!
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: eyeresist on May 17, 2012, 07:16:13 PM
Haven't heard Antikrist, as Langaard hasn't hugely impressed me so far. I do wish there were (many) more recordings of the Fiery Angel. (Plus there is Terterian's Earthquake, hopefully recorded before I die.)

Wagner had the advantage of being the greatest opera composer of all time ;)

I've been wondering how I'd react if I was asked to write an opera libretto. It would be interesting to try to produce something serious and substantial as a basis for the music - but who gives a damn about librettists? It's a thankless job, being an historical footnote only mentioned to point out weaknesses and errors. So I'd say no - unless there was serious cash on the table.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 07:23:25 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 17, 2012, 07:16:13 PM
Haven't heard Antikrist, as Langaard hasn't hugely impressed me so far. I do wish there were (many) more recordings of the Fiery Angel. (Plus there is Terterian's Earthquake, hopefully recorded before I die.)

Wagner had the advantage of being the greatest opera composer of all time ;)

I've been wondering how I'd react if I was asked to write an opera libretto. It would be interesting to try to produce something serious and substantial as a basis for the music - but who gives a damn about librettists? It's a thankless job, being an historical footnote only mentioned to point out weaknesses and errors. So I'd say no - unless there was serious cash on the table.

I should also mention my love for Shostakovich's twisted Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk and Berg's brutal Wozzeck. These operas, for me, are rare exceptions in the genre to where I have actually read the libretti. My reaction to reading both of these was ??? but, again, THE MUSIC!!! :) Wow...

I think you'd like this Langgaard opera. Give it a listen sometime.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: eyeresist on May 17, 2012, 07:45:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 07:23:25 PMI think you'd like this Langgaard opera. Give it a listen sometime.

Have you seen the DVD?
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 07:51:06 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 17, 2012, 07:45:37 PM
Have you seen the DVD?

No, I own the hybrid SACD.
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Cato on May 26, 2012, 03:38:59 PM
Today I heard on local classical radio a piece previously unknown to me:

George Antheil's Hot Time Dance.

Listen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmHkxgQ3fVI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmHkxgQ3fVI)

Now I kept thinking: "This sounds familiar...or at least I have heard something similar..."  And then it struck me:

The score by Danny Elfman to Pee-Wee's Big Adventure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSgO9gwW-FU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSgO9gwW-FU)  Especially the part around 1:50 or so.
Title: George Antheil and Danny Elfman
Post by: Cato on May 26, 2012, 04:40:28 PM
Who knows if Elfman had ever heard the Hot Time Dance?

A case of coincidence in style?
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 27, 2012, 03:59:15 PM
Hah!
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 30, 2012, 09:52:19 AM
The real John Williams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Williams_(actor)) (and I am definitely a fan).
Title: Re: An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)
Post by: eyeresist on May 30, 2012, 05:36:13 PM
Surely you mean this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Williams_(guitarist)