Apparently no Boulez thread! :o Just to get the ball rolling, tonight I'm seeing this concert at Zankel Hall. I haven't heard Le Marteau live, although I have the recording below, also with Hilary Summers as the soloist. And I haven't yet heard the Lucerne Ensemble, so looking forward to that, too.
Lucerne Festival Academy Ensemble
Pierre Boulez, Artistic Director and Conductor
Hilary Summers, Contralto
Boulez: Le Marteau sans maître
Boulez: sur Incises
--Bruce
Oh, boy! If there is one work by Boulez I'd love to hear LIVE it would be Le Marteau! Actually I only acquired it late last year, belatedly (since I know many people who consider it to be his best work), on my trip to Canada. It is indeed magnificent!
This work now is heading to or near the top of my list of favorite Boulez work, the others include Pli selon Pli, Repons and Explosant ...
Having heard oncle Pierre conduct both works in Zankel before, I'll skip tonight. But it's a marvelous experience - especially as musicians are so much more secure in performing these works than they were even ten years ago.
The Boulez that I most want to hear live is Pli selon Pli. There was a performance of three sections in Buffalo, NY, some months ago (omitting the complex outer movements Don and Tombeau - without which PsP is much diminished), but I couldn't justify the long trip from NYC if the whole work was not to be performed. Other than that, I don't think it's been done in the US for decades, if at all.
Still, on recordings, I favor Boulez's earlier performances of PsP and LMsM. The Sony PsP, for example, is sharper and more dynamic than the more serenely coloristic sounds Boulez draws from musicians today on DGG. As he's become a grand old man, some of the fire has gone out of his belly . . . .
Quote from: James on January 17, 2008, 10:27:11 AM
It hardly needs saying that music conceived in a purely abstract way will be arid & mostly meaningless.
I would substitute "can be" for "will be," since abstract methods don't necessarily
always yield meaningless results, IMHO.
It's hard to say, of course, whether his music will withstand the test of time, although I suspect a few works--
Le Marteau and the piano sonatas--will probably be performed now and then. I agree with all the comments on the stature of
Répons--it's a fave--but it bothers me that its technical hurdles may prevent it from being performed very often. If people can't hear it (and for this purpose I mean
live), that somehow seems not ideal.
--Bruce
Sweet Jeezus Bruce. Although I don't listen to it regularly, I love that album. Please give us a blow by blow review. Wish I could be there.
Allan
Sure thing, Allan! I may even do a "full" article for MusicWeb.
Also forgot to mention that I heard Hilary Summers live last year in George Benjamin's eerie Into the Little Hill, a reworking of the Pied Piper of Hamelin. She was marvelous.
Edit: here's a photo from that. Summers is on the left in red, with Anu Komsi and the Ensemble Modern.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on January 17, 2008, 09:54:31 AM
Apparently no Boulez thread! :o Just to get the ball rolling, tonight I'm seeing this concert at Zankel Hall. I haven't heard Le Marteau live, although I have the recording below, also with Hilary Summers as the soloist. And I haven't yet heard the Lucerne Ensemble, so looking forward to that, too.
Lucerne Festival Academy Ensemble
Pierre Boulez, Artistic Director and Conductor
Hilary Summers, Contralto
Boulez: Le Marteau sans maître
Boulez: sur Incises
--Bruce
Since hearing 3 Youtube clips last week, I placed the 4 cd set on wish list, will be moved to order list next week, cash crunch is easing.
Here's one of the 3 I watched.
Though strong influences of Schonberg's Moses and Aron, still Boulez manages to bring forth a distinct creative voice. This is part of a larger work, I believe Pli selon Pli.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhcZM7cFy_c
and Boulez's sonata 1 with Aimard, also made a powerful impression. Though I'm sure others may feel differently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBhXrFp0AXE&feature=related
I was less impressed with this sur incises. Not enough interconnectivity/relationship between the various percussions..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tQe59D5Pzs&feature=related
Though when the 4 cd set arrives, my opinion perhaps may alter once i hear the entire work.
Thanks for posting that video. It's actually Le soleil des eaux, which I haven't heard, so that's helpful. And just saw the clip with Aimard, who at this point can probably play just about anything. 0:)
--Bruce
Quote from: James on January 17, 2008, 10:56:38 AM
er Bruce, i did say "mostly meaningless"...not always...as I went on further to explain. The huge bulk of so-called modern music is so overstretched & neurotic in moving "forward", and which yields a tiny (but amazing) quotient of quality 'new' music. Remember the malaise of musical alienation that Western art music has been going through ... it yields maybe an iota of consolidation/ 'development' ... and a ton of rootless hypothetical drivel. Trying to reinvent the wheel all the time (neurotic western art) doesn't necessarily mean the wheel has been reinvented. And what now masquerades as change is mostly contrived, intellectual conceptions of form (non-organic) and fatuous 'logic' orientated intellectual validations to accompany them. Most of this music is conceived exactly the wrong way round - from outside in. It is poor art. Even invalid art. Yep it's that word again: invalid. There's real change ... which might be less dramatic outwardly ... and there's fake change, which is just failure. People who are catalysts to change aren't always as musically successful as we are led to think. Schoenberg is a good example. Boulez considered him a failure, though a heroic one. I think that is an accurate summary. If, say 20 years on, interesting is all that I can say about most modern music, then it is not going to be enough to be great to me. This is why I don't think hardly any of it has "legs".
At this point (just very briefly, since unfortunately I don't have time at the moment to discuss at length), all I can say is that my experience with most modern music has been very different, although I respect your viewpoint and certainly agree that there is poor art running around. (A concert a few years ago comes to mind, by a group known for its improvisation, and for the final piece they donned white masks. :-X I was wincing.) But all I can say is that my experience with many different living composers has been overwhelmingly positive.
I don't expect most people to like Boulez, and he doesn't seem to represent the field, as such. Boulez may have (rightly or wrongly) ended up as the poster boy for modernism, but at this point there are far too many composers working, in too many different styles, to give Boulez the "leader" spot. I doubt he thinks much of Andriessen, for example, whom I think is also one of the century's most influential composers, but is completely different.
--Bruce
Quote from: James on January 17, 2008, 10:56:38 AM
er Bruce, i did say "mostly meaningless"...not always...as I went on further to explain. The huge bulk of so-called modern music is so overstretched & neurotic in moving "forward", and which yields a tiny (but amazing) quotient of quality 'new' music. Remember the malaise of musical alienation that Western art music has been going through ... it yields maybe an iota of consolidation/ 'development' ... and a ton of rootless hypothetical drivel. Trying to reinvent the wheel all the time (neurotic western art) doesn't necessarily mean the wheel has been reinvented. And what now masquerades as change is mostly contrived, intellectual conceptions of form (non-organic) and fatuous 'logic' orientated intellectual validations to accompany them. Most of this music is conceived exactly the wrong way round - from outside in. It is poor art. Even invalid art. Yep it's that word again: invalid. There's real change ... which might be less dramatic outwardly ... and there's fake change, which is just failure. People who are catalysts to change aren't always as musically successful as we are led to think. Schoenberg is a good example. Boulez considered him a failure, though a heroic one. I think that is an accurate summary. If, say 20 years on, interesting is all that I can say about most modern music, then it is not going to be enough to be great to me. This is why I don't think hardly any of it has "legs".
This is a good post.
And i assume you have other posts which tend in this direction, with the belief that much late modern 20th C music is questioanble as to its content being truly High art. Only the passage of time will have to test the works, like the kiln fire of pottery.
I'm in sympathy with you on this issue. I draw extremely strick lines as to what makes my list as embracing that tradition known as CM, otherwise known as High Art.
As i say, i can't make a solid opinion on Boulez until I get the 4 cd set. My hunch is that some of his works have this creative essense that can be considered High Art, while others may not offer this essence i'm after.
But i agree most late 20th C music is a sub category of the traditional genre known as CM. No thats not accurate.
i have to feel that Elliot Carter had clearly understood what minimalism and other avant garde music really is in essence, when he stated some yrs ago, that these modern peculiarly odd idosyncratic expressions are "the death of music'. I realize this is not the topic for bringing up Carter's controversial comment, but couldn't resist.
yeah i realize that the old school is still harping this same line about Schonberg as "the devil himself', so said the amazon reviewer of what his piano teacher said to him about Schonberg.
The guy found out, after actually listening to Schonberg yrs later that his teacher was mistaken, and was making a projection out of ignorance and prejudice.
Quote from: James on January 17, 2008, 11:41:51 AM
I put the bulk of Elliott Carter's music in the same category as Boulez.
Well considering Boulez is the most important conductor in the 20th C, your comment says alot.
I was hesitant to explore Boulez, due to the fact it was difficult to believe a great conductor at the same time had the creative energy to bring forth worthwhile compositions. The Youtube offerings took me by surprise as to what Boulez has to offer.
how much of an influence was Varese, Carter and Stravinsky upon Boulez?
Quote from: James on January 17, 2008, 11:41:51 AM
I put the bulk of Elliott Carter's music in the same category as Boulez.
Nothing like painting with a broad brush. Carter's style and aesthetics are quite different from Boulez's.
And yet despite the tirades above - "neurotic," "invalid," "abstract," what have you - you admit that:
Quote"I even like some of it, and admire him.... I think he (and other big modern music names of the 2nd half of the 20th who fall into this category) still did manage to produce at least a few powerful & meaningful nuggets that best describes the modern zeitgeist, and that should be assimulated with the canon of great works...
For Boulez earlier things like the Piano Sonatas & Le Marteau sans Maitre...great. And he's churned out some remarkable pieces in his late-years, in particular Repons & Sur Incises. Love those."
In all honesty I don't understand your position. Part of it sounds like knee-jerk rejection of modernism. But then you have some positive things to say about Boulez's music that are not what I'd expect from the orthodox anti-modernist stance. If you like and love some of Boulez's music, why undercut your apparent admiration with all this theoretical baggage?
Quote from: paulb on January 17, 2008, 12:18:42 PM
Well considering Boulez is the most important conductor in the 20th C, your comment says alot.
Certainly not a point that can be asserted quite so dogmatically. There are any number of other 20th c. conductors at least as important as Boulez, in terms of their influence on shaping performance style.
Quote from: paulb on January 17, 2008, 12:18:42 PM
I was hesitant to explore Boulez, due to the fact it was difficult to believe a great conductor at the same time had the creative energy to bring forth worthwhile compositions.
Boulez was a composer first, and came to devote himself to conducting only in the 1960s after he had written many of his most important works. The bulk of his recent activities have been in conducting, and much as he may say that he wants to devote himself more to composition, he no longer appears to have the drive and concentration needed to be primarily a composer. (Bernstein, despite his very different personality and aesthetic, found himself in much the same position.) I especially admire Boulez's early works, and find some of the later ones (Derive II, Messagexquisse, etc.) less imaginative and spontaneous than the best of his early pieces. My feeling is that Boulez's primary attention to conducting in the past three decades is at once a reaction to the drying up of his creative energies, as well as a way of avoiding the concentration needed to truly compose. A career in both performance and composition poses a difficult problem in balance for the modern musician - a balance that was perhaps best achieved by Gustav Mahler.
Last night's concert was really enjoyable, with Boulez offering comments just before each half. Most interestingly, he mentioned the world premiere of Le Marteau in Baden-Baden, which he said required 50 hours of rehearsal, and the United States premiere in Los Angeles, which required sixty. These musicians from the Lucerne Festival Academy did it in "eight or ten." I do think that musicians today are much more comfortable with scores like these. He was also asked about his tendency to expand his smaller works into larger ones, which Boulez traced directly back to the years when he began conducting Wagner, and his development of motifs over long spans of time.
If Le Marteau continues to be fascinating, but a little impenetrable, sur Incises might be more immediately enjoyable (at least to me). It seems more related to the glittering textures of Répons, albeit with no electronics. The unusual scoring is for three pianos, three harps and three percussionists. (Boulez has programmed this piece with Bartók's Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion and Stravinsky's Les Noces with four pianos.) It's about 40 minutes long, with the three trios of instruments echoing each other or as Boulez said, "playing ping pong," sometimes in huge waves of sound. Much of the time I could only smile and shake my head, watching these young musicians playing, often bobbing their heads, clearly grooving on it.
For such a formidable musician, Boulez is really quite funny and charming. Since he's "only" 82, I hope we have more appearances by him in store.
--Bruce
What,no clever, alliterative title for this thread? No "Boulez Bash" or "Pierre Pit"?
Quote from: James on January 18, 2008, 08:32:09 AM
Not painting with a broad brush, both Boulez & Carter fit under the umbrella of 2nd-half 20th modern classical music. I'm not an "anti-modernist". I have a large collection of contemporary music....I just don't think the bulk of modern music has much "legs" for many of the reasons i've mentioned...despite that, yes, many of the big names of the 2nd half of the 20th century (incl. Boulez & Carter) still did manage to produce at least a few good nuggets, and it's enough for a small modern canon to be carved out, that can be assimulated with the best of the 1st half of the 20th, and altogether to be assimulated with the best of the previous centuries...and orchestra directors & conductors better start picking out, programming, exposing & unlocking the wonders & mysteries of 20th/21st century classical music to audiences more often, more than a mere premiere performance, not enough of them are doing this...It should be the primary mission of every music director and soloist today. Familiarity is the key to unlocking much of the mystery of quality modern classical music! Because if you look at the reality of the situation, an entire century's worth is grossly underrepresented in the concert hall, for the most part it's been left by the wayside...while the warhorses from the prior 125 years are being performed to the point that most concert-goers no longer even hear them...
James you raise some valid points.
Does and can late 20th C composers offer something of value in comparison with early 20th C composers?
Lets not bring in pre Debussy composers, thats another epoch all together.
I have almost everything Carter scored and have found all to be high art. i'm not interested in gathering all the most popular composers music on my shelf. Only that which strikes me as offering something as unique as the did the major composers in the 19th C.
I've never quite understood the concept of seeing how much music can be crammed in between ones ears before death. Whats the point of having a hundred favorite composers?
I'm gald you point out that we have yet a ways to go with bringing major late 20th C composers to the forefront in the concert halls. Refer to Joe baron's excellent comments on his recent experience of the all Carter piano recital with Oppens and carter present/NYC.
And Bruce's attendance of the Boulez program. Here we see some stirrings going on, but much more needs to happen.
Its doubtful the german audiences even know much about Hartmann. he passed away some 60 yrs now.
We have to wait for new young conductors to come along who wield a iron baton and will only have the late 20th C as their special interest. This may take some yrs, as we have to wait til the antiquated conductors move on to the "elysian fields".
Quote from: Joe Barron on January 18, 2008, 02:22:45 PM
What,no clever, alliterative title for this thread? No "Boulez Bash" or "Pierre Pit"?
How 'bout
"The Boulez Bowl"?
Quote from: Sforzando on January 18, 2008, 03:33:23 PM
How 'bout "The Boulez Bowl"?
as soon as i get the 4 cd set in, I may see if this would be appropriate
The Boulez's Banquet.
so far based on 2 of the 3 Youtube clips, all the ingredients seem to be there.
btw i was a New Orleans chef in my younger days, I know food ;D
Hah!
Quote from: Joe Barron on January 18, 2008, 02:22:45 PM
What,no clever, alliterative title for this thread? No "Boulez Bash" or "Pierre Pit"?
Boulez Boulevard perhaps, although Laboratoire Boulez might be more appropriate.
Quote from: duncan on January 24, 2008, 01:08:14 PM
Boulez Boulevard perhaps, although Laboratoire Boulez might be more appropriate.
I like "Laboratoire Boulez." Sounds like a slightly upscale restaurant. ;D
--Bruce
Happy Birthday, Pierre! Later today I'll put on the headphones and listen to what is perhaps my favorite Boulez recording, Répons.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on March 26, 2008, 10:19:12 AM
Happy Birthday, Pierre! Later today I'll put on the headphones and listen to what is perhaps my favorite Boulez recording, Répons.
--Bruce
Much of Boulez strikes me as a French pastry... mmm mmm good, but leaving no lasting impression after the fact. A sort of atonal new age music.
Repons is not like that at all; it definitely sticks with one, and I might go so far as to say that if Boulez has composed a masterpiece,
Repons is it.
I've just picked up the Jumpannen Piano Sonatas disk and have been spinning the first quite a bit. While I still don't quite have an understanding of his language, I find I enjoy it and find it interesting and a little more within grasp upon each listening. The few seconds of the second sounds like a tougher nut though. Also been listning to Livre Pour Cordes quite a bit.
Happy birthday dude.
Allan
Quote from: James on January 19, 2008, 11:36:33 AM
From the Juxtapositions Docu series...
(http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/Images/cds/DVD9DS15.gif)
That's the DVD I watched for the past two afternoons and am fascinated by it. I am great fan of Pierre, though I don't understand a note he is saying. His music is challenging me to understand his language, not just love the sound of it. The video of
Sur incises shows a skilled camera team!
Patrick reflects on Boulez (http://wagnerite.blogspot.com/2008/12/my-music-is-also-seductive-even.html)
Quote from: karlhenning on December 13, 2008, 03:13:45 PM
Patrick reflects on Boulez (http://wagnerite.blogspot.com/2008/12/my-music-is-also-seductive-even.html)
How can music be "attractive but dangerous"?
Quote from: Corey on December 13, 2008, 04:27:03 PM
How can music be "attractive but dangerous"?
A curious thought . . . what would make music "dangerous"?
Is there any way to meet Boulez in person? I want his autograph........
Quote from: karlhenning on December 13, 2008, 06:32:46 PM
A curious thought . . . what would make music "dangerous"?
Well I guess the feeling engendered within me by hearing Nickleback would be dangerous for the members of Nickleback.
Quote from: Corey on December 13, 2008, 07:27:30 PM
Well I guess the feeling engendered within me by hearing Nickleback would be dangerous for the members of Nickleback.
Is there any way for me to meet members of rock bands or pop singers or country singers or rap stars? I want......
uh......
never mind.
It's possible that what the mailman brought me today is of interest here:
A medici arts issue: Juxtapositions, five DVD of 5 Films on the Greatest 20th Century Composers.
Boulez - Carter - Glass - Messiaen - Pärt.
I have not had time watching it yet.
Just came across this hilarious clip:
"Badass Boulez" (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=y17-pJZ9nEg) 8)
(At about 45 seconds in you'll see why.)
Here us the complete information on the Juxtapositions edition:
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//3078398.htm
Quote from: Symphonien on December 14, 2008, 03:34:53 AM
Just came across this hilarious clip:
"Badass Boulez" (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=y17-pJZ9nEg) 8)
(At about 45 seconds in you'll see why.)
I saw that before. Dude has style. 8)
Boulez rehearsing an orchestra playing his Notations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgKpoHFhP1M&feature=channel_page
Happy Birthday, Pierre Boulez! He's 84 today. About two weeks ago I saw him with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and he looked more like 64--amazing.
--Bruce
Si'!
Buon Compleanno senor Boulez!
Tanti Auguri!
;D
Charles! Long time (make that "long, long time") no see! Welcome back...
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on March 26, 2009, 08:45:40 AM
Charles! Long time (make that "long, long time") no see! Welcome back...
--Bruce
Many thanks Bruce!
Good to be back! ...
Ciao, Carlo!
If someone commissioned our man Pete to compose a symphony...
Would he accept it? If not, why not.
Anybody want to theorize what it would sound like? What size orchestra?
Would he surprise everybody and do something NEO-ROMANTIC???!!! :o
Quote from: Cato on March 26, 2009, 02:41:22 PM
Would he surprise everybody and do something NEO-ROMANTIC???!!! :o
I would love to hear that, given the music he is so familiar with. I like his music, but a neo-Romantic style would be a nice, fresh listen. I doubt he'd ever do that, though.
Sur Incises vs. Repons
Who wins?
Quote from: Symphonien on December 14, 2008, 03:34:53 AM
Just came across this hilarious clip:
"Badass Boulez" (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=y17-pJZ9nEg) 8)
(At about 45 seconds in you'll see why.)
That was baddass! And a great performance too. 8) 8)
The library had the new DG Le Mateau, with Hilary Summers singing, and Derive 1 and Derive 2.
I haven't heard this piece since the beginning (when I probably hated Modern Music), and when I put it on now, after so much water, it sounded like home. I mean really,... the flute, guitar, and xylo percussion, diamond bright edge glittering garden of delights, I mean, whew! take about the stereotype of the stereotype, this stuff is the protean... anyway, yea, it's very comforting. I do think I would probably enjoy the rougher earlier version better though. This recording is so perfect, and I feel like I want a little bit o' uuhh in thar.
The first Derive piece is the short piece we've heard before, but the second is a 20min piece for 11 players. This is quite a refined form of all his latest pieces, all glittering diamond bright shapes as usual, but, hey, like Stravinsky said, I like it!
Quote from: James on January 20, 2010, 07:12:20 PM
Just a little factoid for you, that particular piece has been expanded and completed recently ... it plays close to 50 minutes now.
The first thing that pops in is Rihm's
J&F/DG... hmmm,...the "50min piece", hey, it's the new thing, haha!
As I was listening to it I noticed how similar, on some level, late Xenakis began sounding like this, though, not really, but as was listening to
Derive 2 I just got a "feeling" about what the last 20 years in music have been about,... I mean, even though there are no electronics, it seems to me that Boulez has been around the "it" of it all for so long now, that compositional technique per se has received something from the computer itself. Does that make sense (I'm reading it over and wondering, haha)?
Boulez seems to me so ubiquitous as to be practically invisible in my thinking about Modern Music. I totally take him, and his sound (especially the up-to-date Dervive 2 sound), for granted. For me, the same goes for Berio. I think, to Modern Music fans, Boulez and Berio are like the equivalent of Papa Haydn or something, no? Am I sentimental? ::)
I've been really itching to get
Sur Incises for some time now, having had
Repons since it came out. One could go totally broke just collecting Boulez, haha! I remember thinking back in the day, that, if DG came out with a Modern Music album, I HAD to get it, because DG could do no wrong. Whew, now we're playing catch up, haha.
...explosant, fixe... also, of course,has been on the radar.
Is Boulez our R. Strauss?
Quote from: snyprrr on January 21, 2010, 08:26:00 AM
I've been really itching to get Sur Incises for some time now . . .
I know the feeling! Or, rather, knew. Just 90 minutes ago I fetched a copy for $8.99.
Just received (which I cannot wait to hear):
Rituel in memoriam Maderna
Notations I, VII, IV, III, II (orchestrated 1980 & 1998)
Figure-Dobles-Prismes
Orchestre National de Lyon
David Robertson
Quote from: Franco on January 21, 2010, 10:13:05 AM
Just received (which I cannot wait to hear):
Rituel in memoriam Maderna
Notations I, VII, IV, III, II (orchestrated 1980 & 1998)
Figure-Dobles-Prismes
Orchestre National de Lyon
David Robertson
That does look very tasty. I like Robertson a lot; some of my favorite concerts of the last few years have been with him at the helm. And the Lyon orchestra may be a little underrated. I have some friends (she's a pianist, her husband is a musicologist) who are talking about making a trip to Lyon just to hear the ensemble in person.
--Bruce
Just recently got Sur Incises and ...explosante-fixe..., and the Boulezathon is on. Along with Repons, which I've had for (wow!) 12 years, I finally get to fill out the picture a bit. After this, I'm thinking Derive 2 might be too much of a good thing (or, just enough!).
Sur Incises is one of those pieces I've built up in my mind to be one thing, and,... hold it,...this piece, right at the end, begins to sound like I envisioned,... the Living Escalator. After a couple of goes I'm hooked to this Avant Sale at Macy's, all hectic Modern Life, yet very serene. My only complaint is that I'm either not hearing the three harps all that well (I do hear the extremely high plucks, and some low), or Boulez's harp writing is extrememly strategic. Someone please help.
Messagesquisse has never been a piece I could pay attention to, but, all of a sudden I'm listening to this great reading, with beautiful solo cello. Of course, now I see why all the cellos. Just like there is multiplicity in all these pieces.
The piece I really couldn't wait to hear was Anthemes 2. I'd heard some citicisms, but I have no complaints. I like the "presentation" of the piece, and I wonder how much engineer Andrew Gerzso credit shares, in general (much like Andre Richard?). The electronic manipulations emphasize a lot of fun, such as the groovey pizz that keep perculating, and the real violin that keeps flitting about. I haven't yet been able to "see" the interactions between "performers", but there does seem to be a yeoman's job by Gerzso at the controls. I guess Boulez is no Stockhausen (please, I'm not even going there ::)). I know this piece probably isn't the last word in electronic violin (anyone?), but I enjoy it as entertainment. How to aurally compare to Nono??hmmm...
Moving right along. ...explosant-fixe... is the piece everyone seems to be pointing to, along with the other two big pieces, as his Magnum Opus. I find all three pieces complement each other. The flute concerto for excitement, Repons as the Boulez "symphony", and Sur Incises as the blonde with all the curves!
The other finds for me were the Notations and Structures. The former, Boulez's "Op.1", made me smile with an "I coulda done that" that could have only come from living through so much unconscious Boulez influence in my general Modern Life. I can't tell you what a revelation this was, much more than hearing the Klavierstucke of KS. And then, the Structures seem to take a quantum leap in complexity. Add to these pieces the Sonatine for fl/pn, and the Sonata No.1 for piano, and you're literally bathing in diamond like, crystalline textures. The early stuff I can follow, and then it starts getting interesting.
I also have the Erato (Apex) disc of chamber music, the Livre pour Quatuor, and the Sony Rituel, along with the odd DG piece. I used to have IdilB in the Piano Sonatas, but...
My question [/b] concerns Piano Sonatas 2-3. I'm thinking Pollini for No.2, just because of the program, but I don't know if there's an extra special 3, or not. Any recommends on these two?
PS- I'm actually thinking about getting all Boulez, Martre and Pli being next. I may favor the early records.
I can tell you that Pli was the ear-opener for me, even more so than Marteau. For some early pieces, there is a 4-CD set on Erato that is very good. Éclat is a jewel (on Sony, can be found very cheap). And there's also Polyphonie X, which is definitely worth a try (on Col Legno).
Quote from: James on January 21, 2010, 10:30:08 AM
It's a good recording to get if you're a newbie to Boulez's soundworld.
And yea ... from what I've seen of Robertson, he seems like one of the 'good guys'.
It is simply a very good recording, for anyone: (to use your phrase) a "newbie to Boulez's soundworld", or for someone like me who has been listening and appreciating Boulez for decades.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 06, 2010, 11:53:47 PM
My question [/b] concerns Piano Sonatas 2-3. I'm thinking Pollini for No.2, just because of the program, but I don't know if there's an extra special 3, or not. Any recommends on these two?
I've only heard Pollini and Paavali Jumppanen (below), and the latter is terrific. His CD of the three piano sonatas was one of the best recordings of 2005.
--Bruce
Quote from: James on March 07, 2010, 11:41:54 AM
Cool little video supplement on Boulez/Stockhausen ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/vBKdXTFMwEk
cont'd ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/9I7OWcCXyXQ
Those are taken from Simon Rattle's
Leaving Home, a 7-part documentary on the music of the 20th century, which is quite interesting. I saw it on TV when it was broadcast originally and got the DVD box a few years ago; it is quite worth it. The only better thing would be Boulez's own
La Musique du XXe siècle, but sadly that was never released on DVD.
Another one a propos is the Juxtapositions DVD on Boulez; there's a thorough analysis of
Sur Incises by the maître himself with musicians from the EIC, aside from the bits about
Éclat.
I just got the Pollini and Jumppannen discs.
The Pollini,... WOW!! Leonine!
Yea, PS 2 has a beautiful violence to it, exactly in that funny French existentialist way. Oh, the gnarled trees, haha!! I'm bashing my father's teeth in, and such. I definitely see it as a "Last Sonata" type thing. Jumpp really has a refinement in the first mvmt that is total, whilst Pollini is just,..SMACK in the face 'there', wow, thrilling. I thought Pollini held the finale with a touch more forwardness. It will be fun comparing further.
In PS 1, I have Aimaird/Erato and Jumppannen. At least with the earlier recording you can hear a little work being done, haha. That IS a compliment towards the Jumppster's toss it off virtuosity, but I do sometimes like to hear some work being done too.
But, it was PS 3 which I had waited for, and,... and,... and, after PS 2, it's almost a ghost. It feels almost like a "Late" piece, haha. But no, it does have a luxuriousness to it, a plushness, that I wasn't expecting. Almost like Boulez is a softy! It does 'sound' easier than PS 2, or, more understandable, especially the Constellation-Miroir. It shocks me to say that this is what I consider easy listening, haha (in the respect that, if any of my circle heard it, their noses would all scrunch in displeasure).
Jumppannen really brings out the stuttering/halting style beautifully in Boulez's writing, and makes it very beautiful to listen to,... perhaps one of the most 'artistic' avant piano records, no? I just think his endless refinement of playing deserves special mention (and, of course, the DG sound).
Boulez discs fast approaching 10! Who would have thought? Not me.
Quote from: James on March 17, 2010, 09:03:37 AM
Idil Biret (Naxos) is great with the 1st PS. .. it's a solid disc all-round.
"...the Second Sonata does have this explosive, disintegrating and dispersive character, and in spite of its own very restricting form the destruction of all these classical moulds was quite deliberate". -Pierre Boulez
About his very first works (the 2 first piano sonatas, Structures, Poésie pour pouvoir, Polyphonie X etc ), Boulez said in 2000 :
I grew tired of counting to twelve. That's interesting :)
My opinion is that the older he grows, the better he is : Anthème II is one of his most exciting works.
--Gilles
Just "happened" on this, which some here might find interesting: http://www.andante.com/profiles/boulez/boulezintro.cfm
Let's all wish Pierre a happy 85th birthday!
Huzzah!
He says thanks.
And he apologizes for having called Paul Simon Al.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 27, 2010, 05:15:39 AM
And he apologizes for having called Paul Simon Al.
Brought to mind the song
Pierre Boulez by The Neem :D. I got it way way back from the old mp3.com site, would advise any serious Boulez fan to check it out.
QuoteReporting from New York - Pierre Boulez, everyone says, has mellowed. A half-century ago, he was famed as a maestro with a frighteningly formidable ear, a French composer of frightfully formidable music and a polarizing polemicist.
In the '50s, heaccused the old tonal composers of being irrelevant. In the '60s, he proposed blowing up old-fashioned German opera houses as an elegant solution to their hostility toward producing modern work.
But now Boulez is widely, warmly embraced. Having just turned 85 on Friday, he is no longer feared but feted as one of the great men of music, present and past, in a town that knows what that means. Boulez celebrated his birthday by conducting the Vienna Philharmonic in its ornate, historic home, the Austrian capital's Musikverein. Future musicologists will no doubt mark the splendid occasion.
I met with Boulez in his hotel room in New York on a bright but freezing Sunday morning in late January. He was gracious, agreeable, witty, smart, quick, charming, self-assured, without airs. He was in good spirits and opened the blinds to let the sunshine pour in. But that hardly means he has gone soft. He has not lost his sardonic laugh. His standards are as demanding as ever. His calls for change have not changed. Boulez the progressive is still at it.
The rest is here (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-ca-pierre-boulez28-2010mar28,0,3381591.story).
Quote from: Sylph on March 28, 2010, 04:47:39 AM
The rest is here (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-ca-pierre-boulez28-2010mar28,0,3381591.story).
Very interesting article. My first recordings by Pierre Boulez were the Wagner Ring Cycle on Philips LP. Hopefully, I will find time to spin the records once again after I bought the set some 25 years ago ...
Irrelevant composer who's claim to fame resides entirely on his large mouth.
Even if you don't like his music, I don't see how you can deny his musicmaking.
Mike
Quote from: James on March 28, 2010, 09:47:36 AM
Hopefully he'll also finish Eclat/Multiples...
I've heard from multiple Boulez scholars that
Eclat/Multiples will never be finished. If Boulez followed his original plans for the work, it would extend hours more. The incomplete manuscript at the Sacher Foundation would last about 50 minutes, and it's only two parts out of a foreseen five parts. Meanwhile, the piece has already gained a reputation for being expensive to put on.
Quote from: James on March 28, 2010, 10:28:56 AM
According to Boulez himself the original plan was to have a piece at about 40 minutes in length, currently the existing torso is a little over 25 minutes or so (that Sony recording)... so I was thinking he was a lot closer to finishing it. Perhaps he'll figure out something to do with the existing music there.
I refer you to this Usenet thread (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.contemporary/browse_thread/thread/599c282c5329f8e/e168ffd2a7f76a87?lnk=gst&q=%2Bculver+%2Beclat#e168ffd2a7f76a87) where I first raised the question. Considering that the Notations are unfinished and the composer is still looking ahead to
Anthemes 3, I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 28, 2010, 07:52:48 AM
Irrelevant composer who's claim to fame resides entirely on his large mouth.
Says an irrelevant non-composer whose claim to any attention resides entirely on his large mouth.
Everyone is a work in progress. And with major composers, the "progress" continues long after their deaths... :D
Don't you start on that Mozart stuff again!
Mike
Quote from: knight on March 28, 2010, 09:03:56 AM
Even if you don't like his music, I don't see how you can deny his musicmaking.
There is no musicmaking, there's only organization of sound. The distinction today appears to be no longer understood, and that is why you have people confusing genius:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_aOhmEki8EPo/SPocDi-bp_I/AAAAAAAAc68/F-3vqs68yjg/The+prophet+Jeremiah+by+Michelangelo.jpg
with trash:
http://echostains.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/picasso-weeping-woman-1937.jpg
Dostoevsky tried to warn us about the dangers of revolutionary individuals and their eternal quest for "progress", which at the end of the day its just a way of substituting truth with desire. Alas, we have failed to heed his warning, and so here we are.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 28, 2010, 07:52:48 AM
Irrelevant composer who's claim to fame resides entirely on his large mouth.
score.
Note how his fame doesn't even rest with being appreciated by music fans. It's all about personality.
Quote from: James on March 28, 2010, 09:13:18 PM
Oh yes there definitely is musicmaking, you just have a puny brain & no ears, and because of these obvious limitations don't get upset and talk shit about something you know absolutely nothing about.
It seems that a lot of people have puny brains and no ears, going by the fact that there isn't much of a demand in the classical music listening world (as judged by what orchestras and radio stations program) for the music of Boulez, and by when (if ever) orchestras do program him the audience has to be lured in with something else...
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 28, 2010, 08:33:41 PM
There is no musicmaking, there's only organization of sound.
That is a singularly silly remark. Your prejudices make you deaf and your deafness is the context for your wrongheaded remarks. Had your deafness been clinical, that would be an excuse; but it is willful...so really, there is nothing to be done with you.
Clearly you enjoy marginalising yourself.
Mike
Quote from: -abe- on March 28, 2010, 10:43:30 PM
It seems that a lot of people have puny brains and no ears, going by the fact that there isn't much of a demand in the classical music listening world (as judged by what orchestras and radio stations program) for the music of Boulez, and by when (if ever) orchestras do program him the audience has to be lured in with something else...
That's a curious claim, as certain ensembles like the EIC do entire programs of Boulez and Boulez-inspired music and have no problem drawing an audience. Concerts of Boulez works in France regularly sell out.
Boulez's following may be small, but there's lots of niches in the classical music scene. As I pointed out the other day, it seems most people can't stand leider, and that's all part of the canon. But over the years I've been amazed at just how wide a following Boulez has among classical music filesharers. And in any event, he seems to evoke more devotion than figures like Danielpour who write what they think audiences want.
Can't we all just get along! :-*
I like the music, so today I'll listen to it some more.
Quote from: -abe- on March 28, 2010, 10:43:30 PM
It seems that a lot of people have puny brains and no ears, going by the fact that there isn't much of a demand in the classical music listening world (as judged by what orchestras and radio stations program) for the music of Boulez, and by when (if ever) orchestras do program him the audience has to be lured in with something else...
Even if that were true, and it really isn't — going from there to proclaiming him as irrelevant, sound designer etc. is really one big, fat
non sequitur.
Quote from: Sylph on March 28, 2010, 04:47:39 AM
The rest is here (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-ca-pierre-boulez28-2010mar28,0,3381591.story).
Thanks for posting this link, which I hadn't seen. I saw the two Chicago Symphony Orchestra concerts which the article mentions, and they were two of the finest evenings of the entire season (and sold out, by the way). Not sure why the chemistry is so strong, but there you go.
--Bruce
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 28, 2010, 08:33:41 PM
There is no musicmaking, there's only organization of sound. The distinction today appears to be no longer understood, and that is why you have people confusing genius:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_aOhmEki8EPo/SPocDi-bp_I/AAAAAAAAc68/F-3vqs68yjg/The+prophet+Jeremiah+by+Michelangelo.jpg
with trash:
http://echostains.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/picasso-weeping-woman-1937.jpg
Dostoevsky tried to warn us about the dangers of revolutionary individuals and their eternal quest for "progress", which at the end of the day its just a way of substituting truth with desire. Alas, we have failed to heed his warning, and so here we are.
I don't know Boulez' work, but that's a great painting by Picasso you're denigrating.
And Dostoyevsky's final prescription for humanity was more Chrisitianity, which hasn't worked out too well...
Quote from: Chaszz on March 31, 2010, 07:49:13 AM
And Dostoyevsky's final prescription for humanity was more Chrisitianity, which hasn't worked out too well...
Poor practitioners do not invalidate the practice, of course.
Quote from: Chaszz on March 31, 2010, 07:49:13 AM
I don't know Boulez' work, but that's a great painting by Picasso you're denigrating.
I know, i picked it on purpose. It is a characteristic piece of anti-art, but it is a thing of small value compared to the Michelangelo.
Quote from: Chaszz on March 31, 2010, 07:49:13 AM
And Dostoyevsky's final prescription for humanity was more Chrisitianity, which hasn't worked out too well...
We didn't have any more Christianity after Dostoevsky. He was the last great philosopher of Christian morality. It is of course curious how the European religious soul often express itself best through art. It was the same thing for the Greeks. Indeed, i always considered Greek religious believes to be nothing more then a collection of pagan superstitions, until i was exposed to the real messiah of the Greek religion, Homer, and his two prophets, Sophocles and Euripides.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 31, 2010, 09:40:21 AM
Poor practitioners do not invalidate the practice, of course.
I know, I know, it hasn't been tried it the right way yet. Same thing with communism, too bad the wrong people practiced it. Let's face it, the wrong people are apt to take over anything that becomes a system. Before it's a system, it might work; afterwards, when the crowds and connivers come, no...
Quote from: Chaszz on March 31, 2010, 05:01:46 PM
I know, I know, it hasn't been tried it the right way yet. Same thing with communism, too bad the wrong people practiced it. Let's face it, the wrong people are apt to take over anything that becomes a system. Before it's a system, it might work; afterwards, when the crowds and connivers come, no...
Clearly, you are more interested in trashing Christianity than you are in the truth of the matter, so it is hardly worth pointing out that your "parallel" with Communism is tendentious, prejudicial & poorly considered.
Curiously, only the day before yesterday my eye fell again upon this rich paragraph:Quote from: G.K. ChestertonNow the best relation to our spiritual home is to be near enough to love it. But the next best thing is to be far enough away not to hate it. It is the contention of these pages that while the best judge of Christianity is a Christian, the next best judge would be something like a Confucian. The worst judge of all is the man now most ready with his judgments: the ill-educated Christian turning gradually into the ill-tempered agnostic, entangled in the end of a feud of which he never understood the beginning, blighted with a sort of hereditary boredom with he knows not what, and already weary of hearing what he has never heard. He does not judge Christianity calmly as a Confucian would; he does not judge it as he would Confucianism . . . .
We're painfully off topic, so let me get this back to Boulez :D Here is the link to the official Boulez is 85 celebrate!
http://www2.deutschegrammophon.com/webseries/?ID=boulez2010 (http://www2.deutschegrammophon.com/webseries/?ID=boulez2010)
I think I like his Mahler the best, modernist takes on Mahler to me are more satisfying than the romantic takes, though both have their place on my listening and Boulez offers some of the best recordings of recent history. But yes Dave, I'll try MTT again! :D
Thanks to you on both scores, Davey!
Quote from: petrArch on March 07, 2010, 05:42:12 AM
I can tell you that Pli was the ear-opener for me, even more so than Marteau. For some early pieces, there is a 4-CD set on Erato that is very good. Éclat is a jewel (on Sony, can be found very cheap). And there's also Polyphonie X, which is definitely worth a try (on Col Legno).
I got the Erato
Pli Selon Pli the other day. WOW!! Why didn't anyone say that this sounds like Varese-meets-experimental Chavez??? I've never heard such a humid, equatorial, fetid, jungle-ruins type of sound, like watching vast Mayan ruins. Truly, I can feel the vines growing around great fallen pillars. And hey, there isn't even that much singing!
Bryn-Julson is a singer I trust, and she sounds just fine here.
This has now become one of my fav Modern works. Boulez really has a 'ritualism' streak, no? This really does sound like some ancient death rite, or something. Great stuff!
I now have so many Boulez discs that I probably would make my former self gag! Viva la B!
Quote from: snyprrr on April 05, 2010, 05:56:54 AM
I now have so many Boulez discs that I probably would make my former self gag! Viva la B!
Good for you!
Quote from: James on April 04, 2010, 11:23:44 PM
New Boulez film being released at the end of April, 57 minute documentary + 71 minute concert ..
Hopefully the recording of
Répons will be in surround sound with the spatialization authentically realized. The stereo recording on DG always seemed like a stopgap measure. We need more Boulez in surround, and I was really disappointed when I found that the recording of
sur Incises on the Juxtaposition DVD was merely stereo.
Wow, somehow I missed the earlier post mentioning this DVD, which looks great. I can't believe that Répons is on it! Thanks, and will look forward to comments--although I will certainly get this soon.
--Bruce
Quote from: James on April 30, 2010, 10:52:52 AM
Charles Amirkhanian interviews Pierre Boulez and Andrew Gerzso as part of the Speaking of Music series. Boulez discusses the pros and cons of microtonal music, spatial music, as well as delving into the technical details of his latest work, "Répons".
Just noticed that statement is inaccurate. For example,
Anthèmes and
Sur Incises are both more recent than
Répons.
Quote from: James on June 11, 2010, 08:15:36 AM
Just noticed you can't read posts carefully?
The interview/historic-document is from 1986 when it was his latest thing...
hit the link, I just copied and pasted the info from there.
Whatever, it wasn't targeted at you, the statement was clearly excerpted. Touchy, are we not? For some reason the link timed out for me. And as we're splitting hairs,
Dialogue de l'ombre double is from 1985, later than
Répons (but perhaps not than one of the latter's endless revisions).
Quote from: petrArch on June 11, 2010, 08:21:18 AM
Whatever, it wasn't targeted at you, the statement was clearly excerpted. Touchy, are we not?
Ah, I see you've met James . . . .
And possibly we have a Waiting for Godot opera as the next Boulez project?
http://www.instantencore.com/buzz/item.aspx?FeedEntryId=96876
Here's hoping he finishes it!
I would be very surprised if it turns to be true. I've read the article in the original French and Machart says "according to what I've heard". It's therefore just a rumor and then Renaud Machart is famous in France for his scathing humour and his love for Broadway musicals and John Adams' operas. His not a conservative ctriic, but he's not always... Afficher davantage very kind with IRCAM-like european avant-garde and wrote a very mean article about Boulez's 85th birthday in Paris in March.
So I guess this could be a private joke or something.
In a recent interview he just said he wanted to finish his Notations and the violin conerto for Anne-Sophie Mutter Anthème II. Next year he will not conduct to compose more he said.
I just got the Boulez DG cd with Sur Incises, Messagesquisse & Anthemes 2 (played by members of the Ensemble Intercontemporain conducted by the composer). I wanted to get to know Boulez's music more, but something a bit more approachable than his piano sonatas which I got about six months ago played by Idil Biret on Naxos (they were pretty challenging to listen to!). So I thought I'd get into his chamber & electro-acoustic music, so this mid-priced disc was perfect (& it has apparently won numberous awards).
The first two works on the cd seem to be in the same league as the sonatas as regarding their complexity, but I have only listened to them once each, so it's early days. But I listened to Anthemes 2 again this morning and it seemed pretty approachable. It's a work for solo violin and electronic realization. At times, you only hear the acoustic violin, but then it is joined by about 20 more overdubbed violins (so it sounds like a concerto) or just a few (a quartet). There is this part in the middle where the strings are plucked, but one quickly realises that this is too fast and mechanical, it could never be done by human hands. There is some dissonance here, but also lyricism and even wittiness (the pizzicato part).
I just began to get into electro-acoustic music in May, when I went to a concert here in Sydney by the local Ensemble Offspring, who play a lot of this kind of stuff. The concert featured works by Australian & international composers, some of whom had studied at IRCAM in Paris (which was set up by Boulez). Some of the composers were at the concert and talked about their works, and one of them was at the electronic console for the performance of his music. I liked those pieces, but I think another Australian composer, Mike Mikowski who does a lot of this kind of stuff is way too complex for where I'm at. But I'm glad that I was able to somewhat understand the Boulez piece, because I'll use this as a springboard to get into this genre more...
Quote from: James on July 20, 2010, 07:27:38 PM
Unsurprisingly, this is the work's only recording
Nope. A recording on DVD came out a couple of months ago.
Quote from: CRCulver on July 21, 2010, 03:37:44 PM
Nope. A recording on DVD came out a couple of months ago.
If you are talking about the
Inheriting the future of music DVD, it contains only excerpts.
Quote from: James on July 20, 2010, 07:27:38 PM
Sadly, the work's formidable demands - not only the virtuoso requirements of the score itself, but also the practical problem of transporting and assembling the relevant digital hardware, plus the difficulty of finding a concert hall big enough to stage it in - have meant that Répons has rarely been heard in performance.
I have seen
Répons live and I wouldn't say it is more demanding logistically than your typical ensemble + live electronics piece. Although it certainly was a memorable experience, I find that
Sur Incises is more interesting--more
crafted--and if you get the Juxtapositions Boulez DVD, there is an invaluable section-by-section analysis and explanation of the piece (it's not always that you can get it straight from the master and with the best musicians in the world playing and replaying each passage ;)).
Quote from: James on July 20, 2010, 07:27:38 PMThe altogether more modest Dialogue de l'ombre, for solo clarinet and electronics, completes the disc.
Dialogue de l'ombre double is indeed a tour-de-force of writing for solo clarinet; works best live, as would be expected, sounding a lot more expansive than the recorded version.
Quote from: James on July 21, 2010, 09:19:11 PM
Répons does have a unique spatial plot ... and the computer system/software etc. is (was?) pretty much specifically designed & taylored for that piece.
Not really. The 4X system was designed a few years before
Répons and there are a few other works that used it. Nowadays IRCAM is mostly Mac/MAX-based and
Répons itself no longer uses the 4X workstation. But you could say that there is a shared lineage there, as Andrew Gerzso, Boulez's engineer, was one of the original designers of the 4X, along with Miller Puckette, who would go on to "invent" MAX and later Pure Data.
Quote from: James on July 22, 2010, 05:58:53 AM
Interesting what other prominent works used this technology ... ? And one that has the spatial plot that Répons has ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Rk3mCuG1L.jpg)
To be clear, I don't think any of the other works were as significant as
Répons. Other composers have used the earlier iterations of the technology, e.g. Machover in his
Light but also using the 4X are a series of works by Manoury, e.g.
Pluton,
Jupiter,
Neptune and
Partition du ciel et de l'enfer. For works with a rather complex spatialization scheme, there is Emmanuel Nunes'
Lichtung series (the spatialization scheme is detailed in a book about the composer published by the IRCAM).
Quote from: James on July 22, 2010, 07:35:15 AM
Right ... then there is the special Matrix 32 lol ... but ultimately it's the combination of all the various elements that i described earlier that make it's 'logistics' let's say unique, fair to say some of the reasons/excuses why it isn't performed a lot, and his most ambitious/extensive application of technology (i know there are others but nothing on the scale of this work) ... and with all the technological advances it no doubt will become easier to pull off.
Of course. I once sat behind Boulez when he was at the computer controlling the patches in MAX for a performance of
...explosante-fixe.... The Matrix 32 is an interesting rack, and even though it looks dated, it was an interesting sight to see it in operation in real-time (the spectrum analyser being the most visually obvious component).
Still, the Experimentalstudio hardware from the SWR is, aside from being more massive and extensive, a better live electronics set up, giving out a better experience. Just attend a concert of any of Nono's works with live electronics post 1980 and you'll know what I mean.
Quote from: James on July 22, 2010, 07:35:15 AMand i know there are plenty of works with a complex spatialization-surround-sound projection schemes (combined with technology or otherwise), i know you know Stockhausen ... & I don't think another composer worked with space on a level & so extensively as he did ... & he was really the first to started doing all of this in a seriously significant & important way.
Right; my point was giving you an example of another work from roughly the same timeframe as
Répons (well, really some 5 or 6 years later) that used more or less the exact same technology (also composed at the IRCAM in the 80s) and had spatialization built into the composition at a level that is as rich and complex as
Répons (in a sense it is even more complex, as it makes use of 8 loudspeakers instead of 6 and has something that another composer has termed a
solfège of spatialization).
Quote from: James on July 22, 2010, 11:35:53 AM
would you recommend that other stuff ... ?
It's worth trying, yes. Or, to put it differently, I wouldn't get rid of the CDs I have with that stuff :). But Boulez is Boulez, Manoury is Manoury and Nunes is Nunes, so... open your ears.
Quote from: James on July 22, 2010, 11:35:53 AM
would you recommend that other stuff ... ?
Manoury is definitely interesting, though those works sometimes strike me as so much mere electroacoustic demo that another, more talented composer (like Boulez) can turn into something fresh and exciting. Unfortunately, the only recording of
Pluton, an Ondine disc, is now very out of print (probably only a handful of copies were ever pressed). But the Ades disc with "Jupiter" and "Partition" can still be found here and there.
Quote from: James on July 22, 2010, 12:40:40 PM
Répons is one of Boulez's best and i posted on it after Sid's post for obvious reasons ... would you say that the Manoury or Nunes stuff is the best of what they do, and some of the best "electro-acoustic" done.
That Manoury and that Nunes is probably among the best of what they have done, but taking it as representative is obviously a gross oversimplification. Is it the "best" electroacoustics?... I don't know. They work quite well, although it is generally accepted that Manoury is gimmicky whereas Nunes is more dense and uncompromising. My favourite electroacoustic music is more along the lines of Parmegiani, Dhomont and, on the live electronics front, Nono.
I got the Biret disc a few months ago, it was my first taste of Boulez, and I found it overwhelming. The second sonata is probably the most approachable for me, as it is in four contrasting movements. I'm totally out of my depth with the other two, but I will have to try & listen to the disc more (probably not straight through, just take the works seperately, bit by bit). I think this disc won a Diapason d'or, if I am not mistaken? I have not heard Pollini's account, and I might get that one too, sometime down the track.
But I found the chamber works disc on DG - Sur Incises, Messagesquisse, Anthemes 2 - to be far more approachable, especailly the last two works. There is much dissonance there, but also quite a bit of lyricism. I also like Anthemes 2 because I am just getting into electroacoustic music, I attended a concert of some recent works by Australian and international composers in May, and I really enjoyed it. Being surrounded by speakers which play music which is in dialogue with the live players is really an experience in itself.
Quote from: Sid on July 25, 2010, 06:48:56 PM
I got the Biret disc a few months ago, it was my first taste of Boulez, and I found it overwhelming. The second sonata is probably the most approachable for me, as it is in four contrasting movements. I'm totally out of my depth with the other two, but I will have to try & listen to the disc more (probably not straight through, just take the works seperately, bit by bit). I think this disc won a Diapason d'or, if I am not mistaken? I have not heard Pollini's account, and I might get that one too, sometime down the track.
But I found the chamber works disc on DG - Sur Incises, Messagesquisse, Anthemes 2 - to be far more approachable, especailly the last two works. There is much dissonance there, but also quite a bit of lyricism. I also like Anthemes 2 because I am just getting into electroacoustic music, I attended a concert of some recent works by Australian and international composers in May, and I really enjoyed it. Being surrounded by speakers which play music which is in dialogue with the live players is really an experience in itself.
Anthèmes 2 is quite approachable, indeed; if you liked it, you may want to give
...explosante-fixe... a try, as that is the work that is at its origin. However, I wouldn't say those works are
electroacoustic music; for that, you should listen to e.g. some Bernard Parmegiani, François Bayle or Jean-Claude Risset (there are
plenty of others, though). For some "lyrical" Boulez, try
Le marteau sans maître or
Pli selon pli.
Quote from: James on July 29, 2010, 05:38:41 AM
The composers who always interested me are the ones who, if they hadn't existed, music would have developed in completely different directions. Without Stravinsky, without Schoenberg, music today would be different. In contrast with them, there is the very good and highly respected composer Paul Hindemith. But if he hadn't written a note, would music today sound any different? No.
"I am not saying that we should silence composers like him. But we must understand that they are second-rate. Every generation makes its own discoveries. And if it doesn't, it absorbs the cliches of the past and uses only them; this is what we see among many composers today."
Bingo!
Sorry to hear that he's retired from conducting. Glad that he's left a rich legacy of recordings.
I don't necessarily object to the idea of seating Hindemith with "The B Team." I object to characterizing "The B Team" as "only using clichés absorbed from the past," and to Boulez's recycle-bin mentality towards the composers for whom he feels "no use."
Maybe Hindemith is a "grade-B" composer. But that is much better than some of us are pretending.
I admire Boulez's compositing and enjoy his conducting, but none of us needs his taste-Nazi posturing.
I don't share his dismissive attitude towards composers like Paul Hindemith, or his need to rank composers "first rank; second rank; etc.".
Hindemith did influence the history of music, both through his compositions and his books on music theory and composition. Countless composers got their training through studying his texts and learning the basic craft of musical composition. And Hindemith set a good example of the working composer who writes music to be played (and is still played), rather than works that exist in an abstract world of the mind. Hindemith's many instrument sonatas are works that filled a void and supplied many musicians with good works for which there was not a lot of repertory. The rare leading lights of a generation like a Stravinsky or a Schoenberg come along only once or twice in a century, but Hindemith and others like him are necessary to create the bulk of the music of the period.
To say you are only interested in the innovative genuses is like saying you only eat foie gras.
Boulez loves to be provocative and I sense he has not outgrown that tendency, although I still consider him a musical giant despite this flaw.
I take it he still regards Shostakovich as "sixth-pressing Mahler" or whatever his characteristic sneer was. It just ain't cute any more; the putz ought to grow up and join the adults.
Quote from: James on July 29, 2010, 06:57:54 AM
If you read on ... it's more of a semi-retirement or hiatus from conducting/reproducing to focus solely on composing/creating , he'll be returning 2014-15 ...
I did read on. At his age whether he will even be alive four years from now is uncertain (as for all of us, but at 85 his life expectancy is only five years).
I don't need to read it again since I read it carefully enough the first time.
QuoteThe composers who always interested me are the ones who, if they hadn't existed, music would have developed in completely different directions. Without Stravinsky, without Schoenberg, music today would be different. In contrast with them, there is the very good and highly respected composer Paul Hindemith. But if he hadn't written a note, would music today sound any different? No.
"I am not saying that we should silence composers like him. But we must understand that they are second-rate. Every generation makes its own discoveries. And if it doesn't, it absorbs the cliches of the past and uses only them; this is what we see among many composers today."
Boulez isn't particularly charitable when asked why he thinks they are not more original. "Perhaps they are tired, or lazy," he said. "It isn't easy to search and innovate and invent. You have to ask a lot of yourself, apply pressure, make demands all the time."
My comments stand.
It seems again to me that we have differing notions of what "second-rate" means. Some appear to see it as synonymous with "dreck." Others see it as "not quite the best, but still pretty darned good"--like a second-growth Bordeaux.
If we classify every composer we like as "first-rate," does that mean we're unable to distinguish qualitative differences between Beethoven, say, and Dittersdorf?
In all events, he is tendentiously speculative when he opines that if Paul Hindemith had not written a note, music today would not sound any different.
Boulez is an intelligent chap; he ought to be able to distinguish between a fact and speculation.
Quote from: James on July 29, 2010, 07:32:03 AM
I'll take his own words, over your own interpretation of them ... no offence
Of course no offense taken, I did not attempt to contribute a replacement for his words, just my reaction to, what I consider, his limited appraisal of the vast amount of music written (much of which displays no influence from Stravinsky or Schoenberg) and the number of composers of the 20th century.
QuoteBoulez isn't particularly charitable when asked why he thinks they are not more original. "Perhaps they are tired, or lazy," he said. "It isn't easy to search and innovate and invent. You have to ask a lot of yourself, apply pressure, make demands all the time."
There is a lot of superfluity in this statement. The only real value to it is: Boulez isn't particularly charitable.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 29, 2010, 07:35:26 AM
It seems again to me that we have differing notions of what "second-rate" means. Some appear to see it as synonymous with "dreck." Others see it as "not quite the best, but still pretty darned good"--like a second-growth Bordeaux.
If we classify every composer we like as "first-rate," does that mean we're unable to distinguish qualitative differences between Beethoven, say, and Dittersdorf?
It is my own preference against attempting to create a hierarchal ranking of art and artists. For me it adds nothing to my understanding or appreciation for it and only clutters the landscape with unnecessary opinions about a unique human being's worth.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 29, 2010, 07:35:47 AM
Boulez is an intelligent chap; he ought to be able to distinguish between a fact and speculation.[/font]
As if he doesn't... He's only giving his opinion and being incisive about it. Sure, Hindemith influenced a lot of musicians, but does his music brave new worlds of sound and musical narrative? Compare Hindemith as a teacher and Messiaen as a teacher. There is a difference.
Quote from: BoulezIt isn't easy to search and innovate and invent.
That of itself is certainly an innocent statement. Many intelligent, sensitive and talented musicians recognizing the innovative qualities of Hindemith's work, and his invention. I wonder what blinds Boulez to them? I do wonder.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 29, 2010, 07:43:18 AM
That of itself is certainly an innocent statement. Many intelligent, sensitive and talented musicians recognizing the innovative qualities of Hindemith's work, and his invention.
I wonder what blinds Boulez to them? I do wonder.
As Stephen Sondheim wrote, "art isn't easy" and Hindemith's accomplishments are not easily arrived at, but, apparently, easily taken for granted by some.
Quote from: petrArch on July 29, 2010, 07:42:21 AM
As if he doesn't... He's only giving his opinion and being incisive about it.
A high-profile composer with a bullhorn; to characterize this as only giving his opinion is disingenuous.Quote from: PetratchSure, Hindemith influenced a lot of musicians, but does his music brave new worlds of sound and musical narrative? Compare Hindemith as a teacher and Messiaen as a teacher. There is a difference.
Sure. But: (a) Is this difference the qualitative knife-edge which is here implied?(b) Personally, as a composer, I don't take much interest in either Messiaen or Hindemith as teachers. What matters to me is the music.(b1) This is more or less in line with my interest in Boulez's work, both as composer and conductor, not in his opinionating.(c) As we've discussed many times in various threads, "braving new worlds of sound and musical narrative" isn't necessarily the most important thing, and certainly is not the only thing.
Quote from: Franco on July 29, 2010, 07:48:09 AM
As Stephen Sondheim wrote, "art isn't easy" and Hindemith's accomplishments are not easily arrived at, but, apparently, easily taken for granted by some.
Word.
Quote from: Franco on July 29, 2010, 07:40:28 AM
It is my own preference against attempting to create a hierarchal ranking of art and artists. For me it adds nothing to my understanding or appreciation for it and only clutters the landscape with unnecessary opinions about a unique human being's worth.
Ah...we differ, then. When I express such judgments, I'm addressing only my opinion about the relative worth of their contributions to music, not their worth as human beings. And the reason being something along the lines that if life is short, I suspect most of us would gain more from investigating Beethoven's music than Dittersdorf's--just as I would recommend Cervantes before Dan Brown. For all I know, Dan Brown is a wonderful, kind, generous soul. He makes a nice living writing fantasies with broad popular appeal--and I suspect that he would be among the first to acknowledge a qualitative difference between
The Da Vinci Code and
Don Quixote.
There's that name again, who is Dan Brown?
;)
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but it is not my interest to decide where a work or its creator ranks compared to all others (talk about life being short). It is plenty enough for me to decide if it brought me any benefit from having experienced it and if I choose to revisit the experience.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 29, 2010, 07:38:06 AMThere is a lot of superfluity in this statement. The only real value to it is:
Boulez isn't particularly charitable.
Well, and taken at face value the statements suggest he's also a bit of an ass. I suspect he regards himself among the superior composers who have altered the face of music...? In which case I suspect history will prove him mistaken. Perhaps there's a bit of sour grapes in that Hindemith's music is more frequently performed and attracts a larger audience than his own?
All I know is that when I listen to
Répons its usually out of intellectual curiosity with no expectation of experiencing the sort of spiritual satisfaction I get from, say,
Mathis der Maler. (But I still love Boulez as a conductor, and respect him as a composer. ;) )
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 29, 2010, 08:01:17 AM
Well, and taken at face value the statements suggest he's also a bit of an ass.
Aye.
The curious thing is that some here seem to admire him for that ; )
Quote from: Franco on July 29, 2010, 08:00:25 AM
There's that name again, who is Dan Brown?
;)
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but it is not my interest to decide where a work or its creator ranks compared to all others (talk about life being short). It is plenty enough for me to decide if it brought me any benefit from having experienced it and if I choose to revisit the experience.
And if you choose to revisit the experience is it because there is some qualitative difference between the piece and others you don't choose to revisit? And are there some composers who have pretty good track records at writing pieces you choose to revisit, and some who don't? If so, then you are making judgments that rank both works and their creators.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 29, 2010, 08:03:57 AM
Aye.
The curious thing is that some here seem to admire him for that ; )
"Birds of a feather" and all that...?
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 29, 2010, 08:04:33 AM
And if you choose to revisit the experience is it because there is some qualitative difference between the piece and others you don't choose to revisit? And are there some composers who have pretty good track records at writing pieces you choose to revisit, and some who don't? If so, then you are making judgments that rank both works and their creators.
I'd not make those assumptions; and rather view each day as a unique world offering me new opportunities for experience: I am a different person, the world is a different place and the experience of a work of art is different each time I choose to revisit it.
Some works please me more than others but I would never attribute that to a qualitative aspect of the work, but of some nexus between the work and myself at the moment of experience. But then the next day, everything is different and I prefer Dittersdorf to Beethoven.
It is not something that I find worrisome.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 29, 2010, 08:01:17 AM
I suspect he regards himself among the superior composers who have altered the face of music...? In which case I suspect history will prove him mistaken.
No, if Boulez attributed such a role to himself, history would have already proved him correct. The second half of the 20th century saw many composers credit Boulez for influencing their music. Even if some didn't like Boulez's strictness about twelve-tone serialism, composers like Nørgård, Schnittke, Manoury, Salonen etc. found interesting paths opened by his music which they pursued.
Either that, or it means that even less-than-superior composers can alter small features of the face of music.
Quote from: CRCulver on July 29, 2010, 08:55:41 AM
No, if Boulez attributed such a role to himself, history would have already proved him correct. The second half of the 20th century saw many composers credit Boulez for influencing their music. Even if some didn't like Boulez's strictness about twelve-tone serialism, composers like Nørgård, Schnittke, Manoury, Salonen etc. found interesting paths opened by his music which they pursued.
We're a bit too close for history to have rendered its verdict yet.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 29, 2010, 10:27:04 AM
We're a bit too close for history to have rendered its verdict yet.
History has already rendered its verdict when it comes to Boulez's influence. There are plenty of articles from the 1960s and 1970s where composers say "I got certain ideas for this piece from Boulez's piece X".
Quote from: CRCulver on July 29, 2010, 02:28:30 PM
History has already rendered its verdict when it comes to Boulez's influence. There are plenty of articles from the 1960s and 1970s where composers say "I got certain ideas for this piece from Boulez's piece X".
We don't know if those composers will be well regarded by history either. No one is really interested in whether Reinecke was more influenced by Hummel or Dittersdorf.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 29, 2010, 07:50:09 AM
A high-profile composer with a bullhorn; to characterize this as only giving his opinion is disingenuous.
And yet none of the people that voiced their opinion on this thread seem at risk of taking him too literally. For the others, I suspect they just have to open their ears and judge--if they take Boulez's word as gospel it's their problem, not Boulez's.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 29, 2010, 07:50:09 AM
(b) Personally, as a composer, I don't take much interest in either Messiaen or Hindemith as teachers. What matters to me is the music.
Oh such lyrical vacuity. Someone was arguing in favor of Hindemith and citing his influence through teaching and his books. The comparison with Messiaen intended to show that as teaching goes there is indeed a degree of influence beyond Hindemith.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 29, 2010, 07:50:09 AM
(c) As we've discussed many times in various threads, "braving new worlds of sound and musical narrative" isn't necessarily the most important thing, and certainly is not the only thing.
Who said it was the only one? But "braving new worlds"
was the context of Boulez's quote.
Quote from: Franco on July 29, 2010, 08:00:25 AM
it is not my interest to decide where a work or its creator ranks compared to all others
Interesting that everyone seems to be taking Boulez's quote in absolute terms. To me it's not a question of ranking composers, but rather something that suggests whether
I will find Hindemith interesting or not provided
I agree with Boulez's opinion, approach or vision of what music should be.
Quote from: petrArch on July 29, 2010, 03:05:47 PM
Interesting that everyone seems to be taking Boulez's quote in absolute terms. To me it's not a question of ranking composers, but rather something that suggests whether I will find Hindemith interesting or not provided I agree with Boulez's opinion, approach or vision of what music should be.
You are free to feel about Hindemith or Boulez as you choose, and to read into his statements whatever you wish. For myself I find his criteria (a composer who changed music history) to be somewhat ludicrous since all but a handful of composers would fall off his radar screen. I enjoy the music of Hindemith, and I consider his contribution to music of the 20th century significant. Whether Boulez does or does not agree will not alter anything about how I think of Hindemith, or George Perle, or Charles Wuorinen, or any number of composers whose legacy probably will not include changing the course of music history.
Quote from: Franco on July 29, 2010, 03:47:37 PM
Whether Boulez does or does not agree will not alter anything about how I think of Hindemith, or George Perle, or Charles Wuorinen, or any number of composers whose legacy probably will not include changing the course of music history.
Exactly. The fact that I happen to like Boulez and not care for Hindemith is a coincidence that makes his words resonate with me, but I also like other composers I know he doesn't care for that much.
In any case people seem to have skipped over his prefacing of his statements with "the composers who always interested
me".
It's interesting how it quickly becomes almost a religious contention.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 29, 2010, 07:35:47 AM
Boulez is an intelligent chap; he ought to be able to distinguish between a fact and speculation.[/font]
He's smart, but I just think sometimes he wants to appear tough. :D
Quote from: CRCulver on July 29, 2010, 02:28:30 PM
History has already rendered its verdict when it comes to Boulez's influence. There are plenty of articles from the 1960s and 1970s where composers say "I got certain ideas for this piece from Boulez's piece X".
No. History is not that short sighted. If we are unable or unwilling to invest any effort in understanding another's point of view, then learning will be unnecessarily slow and difficult.
Are you aware that the tone of every post you've made on this thread suggests that you are spoiling for a fight rather than inviting dialogue?
Or maybe the criteria some of us use for the music we value has nothing to do with Boulez's perspective. There are many reasons why I choose to listen to a composer's music (or to use his phrase, I am interested in a composer) but the level of his influence is not one of them.
Influence is interesting from a historical angle, in a connect-the-dots way. Again, the question of that interest does not make it the most important consideration in evaluating music. Music is not farming.
Quote from: James on July 29, 2010, 07:51:22 PM
Or perhaps some of us here have a better & deeper perspective of the last 50 or so years than others ... Boulez has had a persuasive influence on today's musical culture without a doubt ... from avant-garde compositional theory, to IRCAM*.. to the concert repertoire of the world's major symphony orchestras - impossible to ignore. One of the most significiant 'classical' musicians of the past 50 years without a doubt.
Perhaps even the Dittersdorf of his day! Let's take up the subject again in a hundred years and see whether history judges him a Stravinsky or a Salieri.
I think influence is an overrated criterion. Influence alone is nothing if it doesn't cater for good music. And then the composer who wrote the good music is more interesting than the one he was influenced by. So J. Ch. Bach and Hummel might have had an important influence, but Mozart and Chopin wrote the better music. And thus they are the better composers. If I listen to a Chopin sonata, I'm in nothing less interested than the fact how much influence it had had on later composers. I judge from the music I've heard.
The sonata would not be worse if no composer had taken account of it, would it? The idea seems absurd.
QuoteBoulez: "I am not saying that we should silence composers like him. But we must understand that they are second-rate. Every generation makes its own discoveries. And if it doesn't, it absorbs the cliches of the past and uses only them; this is what we see among many composers today.
Quote from: CRCulver on July 29, 2010, 02:28:30 PM
History has already rendered its verdict when it comes to Boulez's influence. There are plenty of articles from the 1960s and 1970s where composers say "I got certain ideas for this piece from Boulez's piece X".
So, those composers who got their ideas from him are, by Boulezian definition, second rate...and won't interest him because they merely absorbed the clichés of the past ;D And, in fact, Boulez himself was recycling Schoenberg and Webern. Ergo, Boulez is a second rate composer too. Hoisted on his own petard.
For a second-rater, he ain't bad though ;)
Sarge
Quote from: rappy on July 30, 2010, 04:26:46 AM
I think influence is an overrated criterion. Influence alone is nothing if it doesn't cater for good music. And then the composer who wrote the good music is more interesting than the one he was influenced by. So J. Ch. Bach and Hummel might have had an important influence, but Mozart and Chopin wrote the better music. And thus they are the better composers. If I listen to a Chopin sonata, I'm in nothing less interested than the fact how much influence it had had on later composers. I judge from the music I've heard.
The sonata would not be worse if no composer had taken account of it, would it? The idea seems absurd.
Since this is a Boulez thread, perhaps we should note that the idea of influence promoted by CRCulver and James is theirs and not Boulez's. In the interview that sparked this recent flurry of interest on a moribund thread, he said:
Quote from: Pierre BoulezThe composers who always interested me are the ones who, if they hadn't existed, music would have developed in completely different directions. Without Stravinsky, without Schoenberg, music today would be different. In contrast with them, there is the very good and highly respected composer Paul Hindemith. But if he hadn't written a note, would music today sound any different? No.
Complete article here: http://www.haaretz.com/culture/arts-leisure/just-don-t-call-pierre-boulez-avant-garde-1.302036
Boulez is talking about "game changers." Guys whose contributions profoundly altered the development of music. Thus, in his opinion, Stravinsky is more interesting than Hindemith, even though the latter is, as he says, "very good and highly respected."
Note that this is but one excerpt from a presumably lengthier interview that was excerpted for the article, and that contextual remarks might not have been reproduced. Note also that the comments were made in the context of discussing IRCAM and "the avant garde." And finally consider that--were "game-changing" Boulez's sole criterion for musical interest, then he'd probably be consumed with Beethoven and Haydn and Mozart and Berlioz, and not guys who--from history's perspective--might still yet prove but a flash in the pan.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 30, 2010, 04:50:57 AM
So, those composers who got their ideas from him are, by Boulezian definition, second rate...and won't interest him because they merely absorbed the clichés of the past ;D And, in fact, Boulez himself was recycling Schoenberg and Webern. Ergo, Boulez is a second rate composer too. Hoisted on his own petard.
For a second-rater, he ain't bad though ;)
Sarge
Boulez is a credit to the C-team ; )
Quote from: James on July 30, 2010, 06:16:21 AM
David no offence, and I know (hope) you're joking a little but it's comments like this that clearly illustrate that you (& others) here don't really have much of a perspective on what happened with music in the last 50 years or so and how Boulez (& other leading composers of his generation) did change things. He's already in the history books and left his mark on the music world, can't be denied ...
Dear James. I understand your perspective. It is not history's. You are describing present times and interpreting them as if a (minority?) contemporary opinion had already determined the judgment of history. It's possible that history will concur, but it's much too soon to determine that, let alone to claim that "history has already ruled." History is replete with illustrations of the principle that posterity's judgment often overturns that of the present. And, your preferences notwithstanding, your views about Boulez's contemporary significance are hardly shared by all and may not even reflect a majority opinion. Yes, he's a notable and significant composer...but a game-changer? I suspect not, but will let history make the call.
You have expressed your views repeatedly. They boil down to "I think Boulez and the self-proclaimed avant garde are swell, and there others who think they're swell, too, and if anyone doesn't agree then they're just ignorant numbskulls." You are welcome to feel this way.
I have expressed my view on this subject more often than should have been necessary. I would hope that you could "get" my point even if you don't agree with it, maybe even acknowledge its validity while still maintaining that, in your judgment, future generations will evolve to share your refined and advanced tastes and agree with you in anointing Boulez as one of the demigods of Western music. But I've encountered you often enough to know that such reasonableness is too much to expect, and I've no interest in continuing to flog this dead horse...especially when there are so many other dead horses sprawled about the GMG campus inviting repeated flogging! ;)
EDIT:
I think Boulez is trying to convince himself he's a first-rate composer. But for the same reason like imo Schoenberg he isn't: his musical ideas are more important then his music. Stravinsky is greater imo, because his music is great _and_ with his _music_ he influenced other musicians.
However I think Boulez as a composer is greater then Hindemith, but one can argue in favor of Hindemith, that it for him it was about the music only (and not about progressive, and therefore somewhat artificial, musical ideas). To say it in another way: I think composer who had progressive musical ideas are less authentic then composer for who it was about their own music in the first place. Composers like Boulez and Schoenberg can better be regarded as leading figures of movements in music.
Other composers have to digest those musical ideas and then it becomes clear how fruitful those ideas are. They can make "first-rate" music of it, but in way supposedly that these ideas are altered too. The ideas are usable and can never be a leading principle, as it was for Schoenberg and Boulez, for composing "first-rate" music.
Very interesting, Henk. Not sure I entirely agree, but you make an interesting case. *(
At some point I had enough curiosity to buy a disc of Boulez compositions. Maybe I should actually listen to it.
Quote from: Scarpia on July 30, 2010, 08:09:19 AM
At some point I had enough curiosity to buy a disc of Boulez compositions. Maybe I should actually listen to it.
Imagine wind chimes and bells and driftwood mobiles stirred by gentle breezes. What disc?
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 30, 2010, 08:13:13 AM
Imagine wind chimes and bells and driftwood mobiles stirred by gentle breezes. What disc?
Actually, I see I have two.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514KCz%2BFlOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/418X0W6N7GL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
It seemed like it was worth the risk because I found them both used for very cheap.
I think Sur incises will incite your bee's knees.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 30, 2010, 06:56:04 AM
I have expressed my view on this subject more often than should have been necessary. I would hope that you could "get" my point even if you don't agree with it, maybe even acknowledge its validity while still maintaining that, in your judgment, future generations will evolve to share your refined and advanced tastes and agree with you in anointing Boulez as one of the demigods of Western music.
When I say that history has already judged Boulez, I do not say that he will go down as some kind of demigod of Western music. "Classical music", or "art music" or whatever you want to call it is now a very niche thing in Western culture and we can't really expect any composer to really stand for the age like Mozart or Beethoven. But that Boulez has already had a measurable impact on his own little genre, inspiring other composers in that little genre, is true regardless.
Quote from: Henk on July 30, 2010, 07:54:38 AM
However I think Boulez as a composer is greater then Hindemith, but one can argue in favor of Hindemith, that it for him it was about the music only (and not about progressive, and therefore somewhat artificial, musical ideas). To say it in another way: I think composer who had progressive musical ideas are less authentic then composer for who it was about their own music in the first place. Composers like Boulez and Schoenberg can better be regarded as leading figures of movements in music.
For that reason I think Schönberg IS a first-rate composer when you consider the pieces he did NOT write for the sake of presenting new ideas, e.g. Op. 9 (although I really like Op. 25, too).
Quote from: CRCulver on July 30, 2010, 12:47:04 PM
When I say that history has already judged Boulez, I do not say that he will go down as some kind of demigod of Western music. "Classical music", or "art music" or whatever you want to call it is now a very niche thing in Western culture and we can't really expect any composer to really stand for the age like Mozart or Beethoven. But that Boulez has already had a measurable impact on his own little genre, inspiring other composers in that little genre, is true regardless.
It was not you to whom I addressed that comment. It does seem to me that there is a significant sect that
still worships at the feet of Schoenberg and very much thinks he "stands for the age." There are even some who believe the same of
Stockhausen, incredible though that might be. This at a time, the 20th Century, characterized by an "anything goes" spirit of the age.
I don't think anyone is claiming that Boulez has not "already had a measurable impact on his own little genre, inspiring other composers in that little genre." That seems like a fair statement. Thank you.
Crikey! Did you hear that Boulez died yesterday?!
Oh, sorry! That was Tom Bosley . . . .
You almost gave me a heart attack...
Quote from: Greg on October 20, 2010, 06:04:42 PM
You almost gave me a heart attack...
Sorry! My fervent musical imagination inadvertently inverted a rotation of Bosley and the result was Boulez. Mistake any composer might make ; )
Hey, here's (http://ronsen.org/boulez/) a weird satellite orbiting Planet Boulez!
Boulez Conducts Boulez was one of the first of the Sony reissue boxes I snaffled up . . . but I don't think I listened to Livre pour cordes until this morning.
From the liner notes: Quote from: Malcolm HayesAnother seemingly constant work-in-progress is Livre pour cordes (Book for strings), derived from the withdrawn Livre pour quatuor (Book for string quartet) of 1948-49. In 1968 Boulez arranged two movements of this ultra-complex early string quartet for string orchestra (he has since re-worked the material again, combining the two movements into one).
I have to say that is the stupidest project (the Austin TX affair) that I've heard of. Destroy Britney Spears not Pierre Boulez. He is a great conductor and composer whose main fault is that he could never close his mouth. :-\
Quote from: Scarpia on July 30, 2010, 10:25:51 AM
Actually, I see I have two.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514KCz%2BFlOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/418X0W6N7GL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
It seemed like it was worth the risk because I found them both used for very cheap.
Psst, how is it going? (For the record, I picked up the Sur incises disc cheap, too.)
Quote from: DavidW on October 21, 2010, 05:33:28 AM
I have to say that is the stupidest project (the Austin TX affair) that I've heard of. Destroy Britney Spears not Pierre Boulez. He is a great conductor and composer whose main fault is that he could never close his mouth. :-\
It does look silly, though on the face of it, one isn't quite sure if it is an act of hostility or of homage to Boulez . . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 21, 2010, 05:35:44 AM
It does look silly, though on the face of it, one isn't quite sure if it is an act of hostility or of homage to Boulez . . . .
I didn't think of it that way! :D Good point. ;D
Believe me, Austin, Texas is hardly "provincial."
And as far as that "Boulez-destruction project" goes, looking at the website (and it's [sic] 'contribuotrs'), my first reaction was that everyone involved probably adores Boulez, and that this was a rather tongue-in-cheek event.
--Bruce
I have to say that I have found Boulez to be not particularly scary or edgy as a composer, despite his avant-garde rep. In fact, the sleek, pretty, passionless impression that his music leaves, while quite pleasant, seldom tempts me to dig deeper. For this reason, the only Boulez disc I've kept is Repons, and I suspect that's mainly because I find the spatial effects quite groovy.
Who was it said that Boulez's music was "pretty monotonous and monotonously pretty"?
Quote from: Velimir on October 21, 2010, 06:26:33 AM
I have to say that I have found Boulez to be not particularly scary or edgy as a composer, despite his avant-garde rep.
No, indeed! His bullhorn is scarier than his work, and even that, well . . . .
Quote from: Velimir on October 21, 2010, 06:26:33 AM
Who was it said that Boulez's music was "pretty monotonous and monotonously pretty"?
It was in one of the Stravinsky conversation books, so one isn't sure just how firm the attribution might be ; )
Separated at birth?
(http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/arts/photos/2010/10/19/tom-bosley.jpg) (http://agora2005.ircam.fr/uploads/RTEmagicC_boulez_02.jpg.jpg)
???
Quote from: toucan on October 21, 2010, 11:09:49 AM
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH ALREADY
with this moderator condoned harassment
At the rate you people are going there will be no one left on this site other than a couple of internet "composers"
And unpaid bills for site owners who have alienated all possible music lovers
(The quality of the music is not the only difference between a Pierre Boulez and an internet "composer."
A Boulez can scorn criticism - internet mediocrities suppress it.)
Umm.... wtf?
I think Boulez is pretty cool. (Just saying.)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 21, 2010, 05:33:54 AM
Psst, how is it going? (For the record, I picked up the Sur incises disc cheap, too.)
Still waiting it's turn in the CD player...
I wonder what Boulez is composing these days, maybe he's inspired by De Raaff.
Word is he's at work on an opera version of En attendant Godot.
As a composer, Boulez makes a great conductor.
Quote from: Henk on October 21, 2010, 12:12:59 PM
Wonder what Boulez is composing these days, maybe he's inspired by De Raaff.
Eh, probably too busy firebombing cars on the streets of Paris in retaliation of the reform of the French pension system to composer music these days.
Quote from: MN Dave on October 21, 2010, 12:13:51 PM
As a composer, Boulez makes a great conductor.
Not so good as copper, though.(http://www.atwillett.com/lighting_pictures/lightningbolt_closeup.jpg)
If Boulez is a great conductor, then he must be a lousy insulator! Doesn't leave you warm and snug. ;D
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 21, 2010, 12:13:46 PM
Word is he's at work on an opera version of En attendant Godot.
Chances are we'll be waiting as long as Vladimir and Estragon . . . .
Quote from: Sforzando on October 22, 2010, 08:46:21 AM
Chances are we'll be waiting as long as Vladimir and Estragon . . . .
The potentialities for poetical justice are indeed très riche.
Quote from: toucan on October 22, 2010, 10:32:12 AM
The best justice is when the great composers like Bach, Beethoven and Boulez are elected to the Pantheons of posterity, while the fakes and the imitators and the hate mongers are given a taste of Dante's and Gyorgy Kurtag's Inferno... :P
I like Boulez and all (especiallly his Structures), but pantheon? ... but posterity? You're being quite hyperbolic.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 21, 2010, 05:35:44 AM
It does look silly, though on the face of it, one isn't quite sure if it is an act of hostility or of homage to Boulez . . . .
Clearly homage...but with a wicked sense of humor!
Intentional humor, of course, unlike this, which has us rofling partly because the humorless author is painfully unaware of its ridiculousness (which would ordinarily be cause for pity, but it's hard to feel sympathy for someone who's so...er...
charming):
Quote from: toucan on October 22, 2010, 10:32:12 AM
The best justice is when the great composers like Bach, Beethoven and Boulez are elected to the Pantheons of posterity
Is there more than one Pantheon? Hmmm, learn something new every day. ;)
Quote from: toucan on October 24, 2010, 06:38:08 AM
And the flamings that are this site's stock and trade continue.
Uh...that's "stock
in trade." Look to the beam in your own eye...or should that be "beak." ;)
It's all very well for you to love Boulez. Nearly everyone here would support you in that. But when you start attacking others as imbeciles because they don't share your love, you ask for responses in kind. Happily, most folks here are much too gracious to be so nasty; gentle chiding is more our style.
Quote from: toucan on October 24, 2010, 07:18:56 AM
Such self-righteousness, from the internet flamers! I did not attack anyone, I responded to attack, to attack on Boulez as well as myself. To dislike Boulez (or any other composer) is OK, to resort to smearing or downgrading expression of dislike, is not.
Nor did I call anyone an imbecile. If there are those out there who feel like imbeciles, well, their complex of inferiority is their problem and their responsibility
Insinuating that others don't share your views only because they're intellectually inferior
is "attacking them as imbeciles," regardless of your choice of words. For instance, you recently referred to one of Karl's observations as:
Quote from: toucan on October 21, 2010, 04:56:27 AM
A mistake only a moron would make. But the topic here is a great and successful composer, Pierre Boulez, exclusively.
But though your heartfelt concern for the sensitivities of others is appreciated, you needn't worry: nothing about your posts is likely to make anyone feel the least bit inferior.
Dear mods: No worries, I will withdraw from this engagement. In my defense I plead only that such aggressive superciliousness does not bring out the most generous side of my nature. ;) 8)
Dave I doubt anyone but Toucan was pissed at you pointing out why he has a WATCHED under his post.
What a strange opinion you have of your impact: 'hate'.....people in WWII hated Hitler. Folk hated the murderer Myra Hindley. Many have expressed hatred for the banks, institutions they blame for many of the current woes in society; but hate for you, no. Most posters here keep matters in appropriate proportion. I do however detect that contempt is growing amongst the troops.
Saul was not banned. He left, I predict he will return, he often has.
This thread is supposed to be about Boulez; I once was in a performance he conducted, I have a growing interest in understanding him, so perhaps the thread could be returned to its primary objective....now.
Knight
I enjoy his orchestrated Notations on the Wien Modern disc:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61nJZESVTYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I've not heard the piano originals, but the orchestrations are so convincing and complex that it's difficult to imagine them existing in any other way. I will try to seek them out for contrast.
On the disc above, the orchestrations are played in this order: I, IV, III, II. This makes sense because it gives the sequence a sense of symphony-like wholeness: Moderate, Fast, Moderate, Very Fast and Furious. 8)
I love the busy, schizophrenic nature of II; it reminds me very much of the first of Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra. Manic!
Quote from: Benji on October 24, 2010, 05:42:14 PM
Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra.
Off topic!! >:(
Quote from: toucan on October 22, 2010, 09:30:34 AM
According to what I've read in a French newspaper, he has suffered an eye injury and underwent an emergency eye surgery in Chicago last week.
Quote from: knight on October 24, 2010, 01:19:24 PM
This thread is supposed to be about Boulez; I once was in a performance he conducted, I have a growing interest in understanding him, so perhaps the thread could be returned to its primary objective....now.
Might I suggest
Relevés d'apprenti, a delightful collection of some of his writings and
Penser la musique aujourd'hui, for some of his theoretical approach.
I have been to more concerts of his music conducted by him than I can remember (
Marteau,
Répons,
Anthèmes II,
Dialogue de l'ombre double,
Notations,
...explosante-fixe... and others), and it is in concert that you can truly admire the finely crafted music, imagined by a keen ear and put on paper by someone for whom
l'écriture is central to his aesthetic.
Quote from: toucan on October 22, 2010, 09:30:34 AM
Yet more misinformation, originally spewed by the so-called Renaud Machard and occasionaly repeated in spite of its falsehood getting exposed. In interview after interview Boulez has made it clear he had given up on any Opera project.
This story is taking its time to die. Yesterday's
Times (Nov 13th) stated that Boulez's opera based on
Godot will be premiered by La Scala in 2015. I did a bit of a double-take when read that. An opera by Boulez?! That would have been intriguing.
Quote from: MDL on November 14, 2010, 03:14:29 AM
This story is taking its time to die. Yesterday's Times (Nov 13th) stated that Boulez's opera based on Godot will be premiered by La Scala in 2015. I did a bit of a double-take when read that. An opera by Boulez?! That would have been intriguing.
French composer Gérard Pesson (modernist but not die-hard Boulezian) who reads his musical diary once a month at midnight on French radio France-Musique talked this week about this rumour during his program. He said it was for the opera of Lyons (!) but that he had extreme difficulty to believe a single word of the sentence "Boulez is writing an opera after Beckett's Godot for 2015" even, he said, if "it was written in Le Monde... ;-)
Most interesting.
Sadly, it appears that pbs is not airing that concert, even though they aired the Mahler 7. :P Sounded like a great concert though, wish I was there. :)
Yes, ditto--wish they were broadcasting it. I mean, what says "holiday cheer" like the Ligeti Violin Concerto! ;D
(Seriously, I love the piece.)
--Bruce
Nothing says cheer like holiday xmas music like Penderecki's Christmas Symphony and Lutoslawski's Polish Christmas Carols... oh wait... ;D
Quote from: DavidW on December 01, 2010, 08:30:39 AM
Nothing says cheer like holiday xmas music like Penderecki's Christmas Symphony and Lutoslawski's Polish Christmas Carols... oh wait... ;D
That's right! ;D
--Bruce
Next Monday, there will be an (already sold-out) all-Boulez program at Columbia University, with the composer in attendance. Anybody (besides me) from here going?
Quote from: Sforzando on December 02, 2010, 03:55:14 PM
Next Monday, there will be an (already sold-out) all-Boulez program at Columbia University, with the composer in attendance. Anybody (besides me) from here going?
Again, no, but yes, again, give us a report! Please!
And if the
Mahler Seventh Symphony concert mentioned above is the same one I heard on the radio (most probably) it is not to be missed!
And the
Godot opera rumor is still clogging the Internet: Renaud Machard does seem to be the source.
Quote from: Cato on December 03, 2010, 02:12:14 PM
And the Godot opera rumor is still clogging the Internet: Renaud Machard does seem to be the source.
Just ask directly to the source then! : http://sites.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/em/deraisonnable/contact.php?e_id=90000057
A very interesting evening at Columbia's Miller Theatre last night, for a variety of reasons. The program was scheduled to start a 8, and was supposed to present 1 ½ hours of music (a relief for me, as I thought it meant I'd get home by 11:30); somehow it managed to finish at 10:30, and much of that was given over to the latest version of Dérive II, which was easily 50 minutes long and followed a 20-minute talk between Boulez and Ara Guzulemian, dean and provost at Juilliard and the only person whom I've ever heard address Boulez as "Pierre."
As Bruce Hodges remarked to me, if you dropped a bomb in Miller Theatre last night, you'd probably wipe out half of New York's musical elite. Among the better known figures in attendance were Charles Rosen, Charles Wuorinen, and Elliott Carter, who at 102 still gets around pretty well. The performing group was the splendid Talea Ensemble, conducted by James Baker, who is also principal percussionist for the NYC Ballet and I'm sure was grateful for a chance to do something other than the season's 50 Nutcrackers. There were four pieces on the first half, starting with the beautiful Dérive I in a stunningly sensuous performance that sounded particularly well in Miller's very live, bright acoustic. Pianist Anthony Cheung then did a fine job with the 12 Notations, most of which are not technically very difficult or virtuosic for the pianist but which call for detailed attention to rhythm and phrasing. Soprano xx then performed the first two Mallarmé Improvisations in their original chamber scoring; I found her very adept, but somewhat cool in temperament, and I have to admit the second of the two seemed to me a bit too long, but that was nothing compared to what happened in the second half.
The interview with Guzulemian followed the intermission, and Boulez still seems to get around well and is obviously as articulate as ever. The intent was to touch on all the pieces being played as a kind of mini-retrospective of Boulez's composing career, and the interviewer mentioned (at least three times) that this was the last birthday celebration for Boulez this year, which I found a bit embarrassing for obvious reasons. There were no major revelations in the interview, which touched on Boulez's association with Messiaen, his dislike towards René Leibowitz as an academician, the influence of Balinese gamelan on the Improvisations, his expansion of Notations in orchestral form while he was conducting the Ring, and so forth. When asked what he planned to continue composing, Boulez spoke of completing the orchestral Notations but said nothing about an opera, nor was he asked.
Finally, the US première (or maybe it wasn't) of Dérive II, and this is one of those very large works Boulez has been writing of late such as Répons and Sur Incises. I heard an earlier version of Dérive II in Carnegie Hall about five years ago and remembered feeling it just went on and on; as I thought after hearing this one, it just went on and on and on and on and on. My feeling about Boulez's later work (i.e., the work following Rituel) is that it has become more coloristic and less inventive than his earlier pieces. I don't know if when he started conducting more and more, he lost his concentration as a composer; or whether he started losing concentration as a composer, he turned more to conducting. But this piece seemed to me overlong, shapeless, and clichéd in its materials. Scale figures, repeated note motifs, and even long legato solo passages for violin, cello, and English horn all sounded very different from the more individualized materials of Boulez's youth. If the Notations recall Schoenberg, that's understandable in a young composer; but here is an older composer who seems to have run out of steam. I wonder on hearing this very tired and very long work if Boulez senses this himself; whatever the case, I confirmed with Bruce after the performance that my assessment wasn't the only one.
The composer did receive a standing ovation at the end, not surprisingly. I joined in too, but for the very great career as a whole, and not the unfortunate work at the end of it.
Has Boulez ever conducted any of Dutilleux's music? Dutilleux seems to be right up Boulez's alley.
Quote from: James on December 07, 2010, 07:00:17 PM
Thanks for this. I honestly like Sur Incises & Répons from his later music very much ... but I have two 2010 live bootlegs (aka radio broadcasts) recordings of Dérive II (with him conducting on both occasions) and haven't managed to sit through either, and nothing about it pulls me back ...
I certainly prefer both of those works to D. II. Actually the Carnegie performance of Répons was quite exciting in some ways, though some of that had to do with the antiphonal placement of the musicians and the electronics - and even the lighting effects - as much as the actual music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 07, 2010, 07:20:53 PM
Has Boulez ever conducted any of Dutilleux's music? Dutilleux seems to be right up Boulez's alley.
Start here. This may surprise you:
http://cf.groups.yahoo.com/group/forum_classique/message/14084
But I read an interview from about 5 years ago where Boulez's attitude towards Dutilleux has mellowed considerably. Can't find it right now, however.
Quote from: Sforzando on December 07, 2010, 08:06:10 PM
Start here. This may surprise you:
http://cf.groups.yahoo.com/group/forum_classique/message/14084 (http://cf.groups.yahoo.com/group/forum_classique/message/14084)
But I read an interview from about 5 years ago where Boulez's attitude towards Dutilleux has mellowed considerably. Can't find it right now, however.
I often disagree with Boulez, but I had no idea of how ruthless he was to other composers. I think it's a shame that musicans of Boulez's stature have to degrade composers who don't share the same views as him. Boulez has mellowed out through the years, because one thing I can't stand is someone who is arrogant enough to proclaim their way is the only way and everybody else is wrong.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 07, 2010, 07:20:53 PM
Has Boulez ever conducted any of Dutilleux's music? Dutilleux seems to be right up Boulez's alley.
Dutilleux is rather aloof from the French musical establishment and has said some harsh words about Boulez in the past.
Quote from: CRCulver on December 07, 2010, 09:02:38 PM
Dutilleux is rather aloof from the French musical establishment and has said some harsh words about Boulez in the past.
Did you read the article that was linked above? In the article, it has quotes from Dutilleux in which he basically said (to paraphrase here) that Boulez's attitude about composers who didn't share his same musical outlook were wrong. If Boulez wasn't such an a****** than perhaps Dutilleux would have had a better footing with the French establishment. Anyway you look at it, I think history will be kind to Dutillieux and his contributions to music are noteworthy.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 07, 2010, 08:26:15 PM
. . . one thing I can't stand is someone who is arrogant enough to proclaim their way is the only way and everybody else is wrong.
But that's the essence of Boulez's character.
Quote from: Sforzando on December 07, 2010, 08:06:10 PM
But I read an interview from about 5 years ago where Boulez's attitude towards Dutilleux has mellowed considerably. Can't find it right now, however.
Yes, I remember this too, and can't find it either. I think Boulez did explicitly state that he'd like to conduct
Timbres, Espace, Mouvement -- a work I could see him doing an excellent job with.
As for recent Boulez, I also find almost all of his recent work far too long for its ideas (even the enjoyable
sur Incises could IMO do with some trimming). I think the last large-scale Boulez piece that I can give an entirely unquestioned two thumbs up to would be
Rituel.
Quote from: James on December 08, 2010, 06:32:04 AM
... and I've never liked Pli Selon Pli.
Well, but if you'd use your ears, James . . . .; )
Quote from: Sforzando on December 07, 2010, 06:19:15 PM
[interesting comments excised]
The composer did receive a standing ovation at the end, not surprisingly. I joined in too, but for the very great career as a whole, and not the unfortunate work at the end of it.
Can't add much to this, other than figurative nodding in agreement. It was a wonderful evening in many ways: these days I treasure the chances to see Boulez in person (not to mention Elliott Carter and some of the others in the audience). But I wish I'd enjoyed
Dérive II more. It wasn't "agonizing," just without that Boulezian grip that seizes you in his best work (like
Répons).
But loved, loved, loved the performance of
Dérive--my favorite of the night.
--Bruce
Just as some fans hope that with Stockhausen's death comes the possibility of performing LICHT without the composer's lame staging ideas, so too I hope that after Pierre's gone (and I do hope he's got many more years ahead of him) performers can start going back to the original versions of many works. I'd much rather go to a concert of an earlier, shorter and more passionate version of Pli selon pli or a recital with the original 1994 version of Incises which is one of my favourite piano works of all time, while I detest the bloated monstrosity he unveiled in 2001.
One wonders if Boulez would have kept expanding Derive II if he hadn't been on such a Mahler kick. That composer is definitely a bad role model for keeping things lean.
Quote from: CRCulver on December 08, 2010, 12:17:24 PM
while I detest the bloated monstrosity he unveiled in 2001.
Have you seen the "masterclass" he gave on it, available as a bonus on the Juxtapositions DVD? Sure it is long, but there is a lot of stuff to dig through and enjoy.
To clarify, the "bloated monstrosity" of 2001 that I was referring to was the 10-minute version of Incises for solo piano as opposed to the 3.5 minute version of 1994. I love sur Incises as it is and am happy Boulez came up with the piece.
Quote from: bhodges on December 08, 2010, 11:11:42 AM
But loved, loved, loved the performance of Dérive--my favorite of the night.
--Bruce
I agree here too. I realize also I left out the name of the soprano soloist in my long post because it escaped me. Her name was Mary Elizabeth Mackenzie.
Quote from: James on December 09, 2010, 07:56:05 AM
hmmm has the original 3.5 minute version turned up anywhere on a broadcast or recording?
I remember finding a recording of the smaller version just doing a simple Google search for it. I'm sure it's also on YouTube. Also, for the record, I happen to love both the later versions of Incises and Dérive II. I like Dérive I just fine, but I thought that the 1994 version of Incises ended too abruptly. Of course, I am very familiar with Sur Incises, and this affects my decision.
Quote from: James on December 08, 2010, 06:48:59 AM
har har ... but I have and every single recording available of it too, I still don't care for it. Oh well.
Oh, dear! Well, nobody can accuse you of not trying. I too have all the recordings of
Pli selon Pli. I think my fave is the early CBS/Sony version; I like my
Pli with a bit of bite. It's probably the Boulez work that I love best, although I've never been entirely convinced by the fifth movement (sublime coda excepted).
Quote from: James on December 09, 2010, 07:56:05 AM
hmmm has the original 3.5 minute version turned up anywhere on a broadcast or recording?
It's been recorded once on DG by the then very-young Gianluca Cascioli:
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/48/9a/4e3a53a09da069b70d256110.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
A portion of the New York Times review, speaking of Dérive II:
QuoteA huge score now, it unfolds organically, with intricate rhythms and pointillistic textures giving way to insistent, forward drive and richly contrapuntal sections. Except for its spiky accent, stretches of the work could have been 19th-century chamber music; in fact, the way into this daunting piece is to focus on the vital interplay between individual instruments and the full ensemble. In a long section toward the end an angular violin theme is taken up in turn by the oboe, clarinet, bassoon (with oboe) and cello, often with ensemble passages setting apart the solo turns.
Other surprises in "Dérive II" included a syncopated tandem passage for clarinet and oboe that had a decidedly (if fleetingly) jazzy sound, and a tremolando chordal passage, near the end, that seemed an allusion to one of Steve Reich's signature moves — something one hardly expects in Mr. Boulez's music.
Those who attended may recognize that, three mentions notwithstanding, the instrument used in D. II was an English horn and not an oboe. Great reviewers the Times is getting these days.
In the NYT review they say that Dérive II lasts 53 minutes. Is it a new-new version ? I've listened to the 2006 version a few months ago it it was about 42-44 minutes I think...
Quote from: Joaquimhock on December 09, 2010, 12:19:52 PM
In the NYT review they say that Dérive II lasts 53 minutes. Is it a new-new version ? I've listened to the 2006 version a few months ago it it was about 42-44 minutes I think...
Yes, that's the latest one. (The performance the other night could have been a bit slower.)
--Bruce
Quote from: James on December 13, 2010, 08:03:44 AM
Currently listening to Boulez's ...explosante fixe...
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/3f/b0/3bb0c0a398a051427d15b110.L.png)
A wonderful marriage of the computerized world & the instrumental world.
You can see a live performance of Explosante... fixe (in Berlin a few month ago) on the Berlin Philharmoniker website with Boulez conducting and Emmanuel Pahud playing the flute solo. It's not free unfortunately, but this is a great opportunity to "see" this spectacular piece. The interview of Boulez by Pahud about Explosante.. Fixe is free if you just register.
http://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/1658
Quote from: Joaquimhock on December 15, 2010, 04:19:14 AM
You can see a live performance of Explosante... fixe (in Berlin a few month ago) on the Berlin Philharmoniker website with Boulez conducting and Emmanuel Pahud playing the flute solo. It's not free unfortunately, but this is a great opportunity to "see" this spectacular piece. The interview of Boulez by Pahud about Explosante.. Fixe is free if you just register.
http://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/1658
I attended a performance of it in the late 90s with Boulez at the wheel and the Ensemble InterContemporain :P. Memorable indeed, and made me pay closer attention to the piece, which I didn't consider particularly interesting until then.
Quote from: toucan on December 31, 2010, 09:48:48 AM
As some have pointed out Boulez has mellowed considerably with the years. The neo-tonals have not, however - they are still around, they still define themselves against Boulezian avant-garde, they are as intolerant as ever, they still want the exclusive possession of French musical life they briefly enjoyed during the Vichy period - and the composers they uphold are still as mediocre as ever.
Those who do not agree with the latter judgment are welcome to listen as much as they want to the music of Marcel Landowski, Henri Tomasi, Jean-Michel Damase, Jean-Louis Florentz, Nicolas Bacri, Thierry Escaich or Guillaume Connesson. Does everyone not deserve a chance at what they wish for? Especially at this time of year, lol.
The only one I would save in this list is the very talented Jean-Louis Florentz who died too young, alas...
Funny to see that NOBODY plays Landowski anymore in France... Perhaps a proof that his reputation was due to his socializing habilities and not to his talent which was very small as a composer indeed.
Quote from: toucan on December 31, 2010, 09:48:48 AM
As some have pointed out Boulez has mellowed considerably with the years. The neo-tonals have not, however - they are still around, they still define themselves against Boulezian avant-garde, they are as intolerant as ever, they still want the exclusive possession of French musical life they briefly enjoyed during the Vichy period - and the composers they uphold are still as mediocre as ever.
Indeed, I've never thought of that before. It's indeed funny that Boulez is called an intolerant "my way or the highway" serialist when he has championed the music of e.g. Dalbavie (post-spectralist crowdpleasers), Neuwirth (post-Lachenmann creaking) and Kurtag (very in touch with Hungarian tradition).
Quote from: Joaquimhock on January 01, 2011, 01:19:16 AM
The only one I would save in this list is the very talented Jean-Louis Florentz who died too young, alas...
Funny to see that NOBODY plays Landowski anymore in France... Perhaps a proof that his reputation was due to his socializing habilities and not to his talent which was very small as a composer indeed.
Florentz doesn't have that much by way of cd? A lone cello piece is all I see.
Quote from: toucan on January 01, 2011, 09:41:07 AM
Well, perhaps if Boulez orchestrated Bagatelle sans Tonalité that would keep most parties happy... ;)
Yes, but while that piece is highly chromatic and modulatory, it is in no way atonal in the Schoenbergian sense.
As for Liszt, Boulez has always had a considerable respect for that composer's music. In fact, in his second NY Philharmonic season, he programmed retrospectives of both Liszt and Berg. You can probably find out which works he specifically programmed by searching the NY Phil archives:
http://history.nyphil.org/nypwcpub/dbweb.asp?ac=a1
Unfortunately, the search engine is severely crippled by the fact that you can search for only one term at a time. (E.g., I can search for Boulez, or I can search for Liszt. But I cannot search for Liszt as performed by Boulez.) Hopefully they'll do better with this in time.
Quote from: James on January 01, 2011, 02:20:05 PM
All transient stuff, these concerts. I wish he'd focus on putting his own notes to manuscript paper instead.
He should. He's 85 years old... I'd like to hear a new Boulez work before he dies.
Quote from: toucan on December 31, 2010, 09:48:48 AM
Boulez has panned composers whose line is parallel to his, when he doubts their merits. He has occasionally come close to tagging Xenakis a failure - and has actually used that term on Barraque.
In his latest Diapason interview he quietly destroys Stockhausen.
In what did Xenakis fail, Pepe??? (bitch slaps Boulez so hard his comb-over resembles one of Xenakis' glissandi diagrams) >:(
Still, I wanna hear the gossip! :P
hey guys,,,,, 8) 8)
I have the Boulez Rite of Spring with Cleveland. I find the Danse Sacrale incredible, it is still an eye-opener (or ear opener?) every time I listen to it. He takes it at exactly the metronome marking prescribed by Stravinsky, which is much, much slower than how it is usually done.
Quote from: smith888 on January 19, 2011, 09:14:29 PM
hey guys,,,,, 8) 8)
I have the Boulez Rite of Spring with Cleveland. I find the Danse Sacrale incredible, it is still an eye-opener (or ear opener?) every time I listen to it. He takes it at exactly the metronome marking prescribed by Stravinsky, which is much, much slower than how it is usually done.
His first (Sony/CBS) or the DG remake? His first is probably my favourite recording of the
Rite. The second is a bit toothless.
Quote from: Greg on January 02, 2011, 05:33:23 PM
He should. He's 85 years old... I'd like to hear a new Boulez work before he dies.
You'll be delighted to know that he's taking a year-long leave of absence to do just that. Supposedly a Boulez opera is in the works as well. He has no scheduled concerts from now through I think most of the next season.
Quote from: James on January 20, 2011, 07:54:42 PM
There is also yet another live recording (easier to do) coming out soon of retread (yawn) ... Wagner/Schoenberg
(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4779347.jpg)
http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/single?PRODUCT_NR=4779347
I really liked Boulez's CSO
Pelleas, even if I think Karajan did a better job with the final section, so I look forward to hearing this.
Quote from: toucan on December 31, 2010, 09:48:48 AM
In his latest Diapason interview he quietly destroys Stockhausen.
What,
all Stockhausen? OK, he wrote some dubious pieces in his hippy days and often seemed to be working on autopilot later in life, but, in my opinion, his greatest works tower over anything by Boulez. Also, the range and scale of his output, masterpieces or not, dwarfs Boulez's small and fairly limited contribution. I love Boulez as a composer and conductor, but he's always been a bitchy-arsed little gobshite, hasn't he?
Quote from: MDL on January 22, 2011, 09:01:38 AM
I love Boulez as a composer and conductor, but he's always been a bitchy-arsed little gobshite, hasn't he?
I'm not trying to offend anyone, but...have you ever known a French intellectual who wasn't?
What's the French for egghead? Tête-d'oeuf ?
Quote from: James on January 22, 2011, 09:50:52 AM
. . . Well he loves to talk . . ., pontificate . . . .
Reminds me of someone. Hang on, I'll remember whom in a minute . . . .
Quote from: James on January 22, 2011, 10:00:36 AM
Mr. 28579 posts? ;)
Can't be Karl. His count as I write is 28583.
Quote from: Sforzando on January 22, 2011, 02:27:48 PM
Can't be Karl. His count as I write is 28583.
No, it's 28585. It's almost like the number is constantly changing... ??? :o
Nice to hear about Boulez composing, though...
Several very important composers composed lesss than Boulez (Varese, Webern, Ustwolskaya) but yes, it's a shame that he still accepts to conduct anything. This is a mystery. He says he would always prefer composing if he had to choose, but he's always in a podium somewhere in the world to play Bartok or Debussy... Come on Pierre you don't need money, you don't need stardom but we need Anthème III !!! ;-)
What was Boulez's relationship with Jolivet like? What cause the rift and the feud?
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 22, 2011, 09:32:32 AM
I'm not trying to offend anyone, but...have you ever known a French intellectual who wasn't?
He's actually a very pleasant and humorous guy in person.
Quote from: Mensch on February 04, 2011, 07:36:54 AM
He's actually a very pleasant and humorous guy in person.
But watch your back! :-\
The Southbank Centre is hosting a Boulez festival in October. There's loads of his piano music which I'm not particularly arsed about; more excitingly, there will be performances of ...explosante-fix... and Pli selon Pli.
http://ticketing.southbankcentre.co.uk/find/festivals-series/exquisite-labyrinth-the-music-of-pierre-boulez (http://ticketing.southbankcentre.co.uk/find/festivals-series/exquisite-labyrinth-the-music-of-pierre-boulez)
Edit: Just noticed there's a concert in September, too, featuring the inevitable (but still welcome, of course) Rituel.
:) A good number of videos here, Boulez conducting his own and other's music
http://www.citedelamusiquelive.tv/Concert/0942572.html (http://www.citedelamusiquelive.tv/Concert/0942572.html)
Has anyone heard the 2006 version of Dérive II? Apparently it's 45 minutes long — the version on the DG recording is from 2002 and is nearly half the length. Are there any recordings?
Quote from: Coco on April 28, 2011, 05:45:02 PM
Has anyone heard the 2006 version of Dérive II? Apparently it's 45 minutes long — the version on the DG recording is from 2002 and is nearly half the length. Are there any recordings?
Can't answer your second question, but I did hear the newer version last December, at a very good Boulez birthday tribute concert by the Talea Ensemble:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/sandh/2011/Jan-Jun11/boulez0612.htm
Can't say that I really liked it, but then, I've only heard it once, so... :-\
--Bruce
Yesterday, I was playing a DVD of Boulez (Eclat). Three year old Kimi came and sat beside me and listened attentively. Five minutes later, Vanessa came and said "Hey, Kimi won't like that!", and changed the DVD to Mozart. Kimi got upset:"Mommy! I was enjoying the last one! Put it back! That was good stuff!!!"
Vanessa was speechless.
Quote from: springrite on May 02, 2011, 06:27:57 AM
Yesterday, I was playing a DVD of Boulez (Eclat). Three year old Kimi came and sat beside me and listened attentively. Five minutes later, Vanessa came and said "Hey, Kimi won't like that!", and changed the DVD to Mozart. Kimi got upset:"Mommy! I was enjoying the last one! Put it back! That was good stuff!!!"
Vanessa was speechless.
Kimi is the coolest little girl in the world... :D
Pow!
Goes to show how programmed our idea of "convention" can be. Kids are often more intelligent than adults.
Certainly they tend to hear with fresher ears. (So here's hoping The Mousetrap passes muster!)
Reminds me of the time I was listening to Pulcinella on headphones in my parents' backyard and my little sister (4 at the time) wanted to listen. I said, "you won't like it" but handed the phones over — she started blissfully swaying from side to side with her eyes closed. :D
The bump reminds me: I was able to find a few radio recordings of some rare pieces, including the 2006 version of Dérive II (45 minutes), as well as a few withdrawn pieces. The sound quality is variable. I don't think any of these are available commercially, so if anyone's interested, send me a PM and I'll be happy to send them.
QuoteIf there's a living deity – or ruling tyrant – in classical music, it's got to be Pierre Boulez.
Nobody else comes close, in the adulation they attract, or the venom, or the fear – even among established composers – of their disapproval. This is the man who said that opera houses should be burned down, and libraries turned into cowsheds, and whose Year-Zero creation of a new musical language rivalled Pol Pot in its enthusiastic abolition of the past. This is the dictator who has stigmatised all musicians who don't embrace his ideology as "useless"; whose Institut de Recherche et de Co-ordination Acoustique-Musique – universally known as Ircam – is held to have alienated the broad mass of music lovers, and pushed new music into a narcissistic ghetto.
And this is the man whose music the Southbank Centre is preparing to celebrate, with a series of events prefaced by a concert next week in which he will conduct Liszt's piano concertos, with his friend Daniel Barenboim as the soloist. But it is indeed time that Boulez's music, with its richly decorative surface and Oriental sensuality of sound, was released from the specialist niche to which its intellectual rigour has condemned it. "We want to focus on its beauty," says Gillian Moore, the Southbank's head of contemporary culture. "He's the late 20th-century's successor to Debussy and Ravel."
The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/features/pierre-boulez-ray-of-light-or-lord-of-the-dark-side-discuss-2296306.html)
Ray of light, most definitely. Boulez is one of my favorite composers.
Boulez on the money as usual.
Quote from: Coco on June 14, 2011, 06:52:49 PM
Boulez on the money as usual.
I don't think Boulez is ever "on the money." In fact, he has some quite nasty opinions of composers who I admire, but thankfully, these are just opinions and not factual in any way. I'm also glad to see Boulez has mellowed out through the years. I admire his musicianship, but that is all.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2011, 06:59:36 PM
I don't think Boulez is ever "on the money." In fact, he has some quite nasty opinions of composers who I admire, but thankfully, these are just opinions and not factual in any way. I'm also glad to see Boulez has mellowed out through the years. I admire his musicianship, but that is all.
Sibelius is a notable blindspot for him, and I'm surprised a great musician like him would not appreciate the architectonics of Sibelius's later music, despite the superficial traditionalism of his harmonic language — but I find myself agreeing with him nearly always when it comes to contemporary music, even if his own music isn't as good as his early and middle-period masterpieces.
Quote from: Coco on June 14, 2011, 07:37:08 PM
Sibelius is a notable blindspot for him, and I'm surprised a great musician like him would not appreciate the architectonics of Sibelius's later music, despite the superficial traditionalism of his harmonic language — but I find myself agreeing with him nearly always when it comes to contemporary music, even if his own music isn't as good as his early and middle-period masterpieces.
Boulez has many "blindspots" in my opinion. ;) I would say that much of Scandinavia is a blindspot for him in terms of conducting. Could you imagine Boulez conducting Nielsen? ???
Quote from: James on June 15, 2011, 04:27:56 AM
Yea gotta agree with him too here ... Cage,Reich,Glass,Adams ... meaningless,vapid & trite stuff.
Just like what he said of post-1970 Stockhausen? ;)
(* chortle *)
Agreed, Leon, that the whole tack of "such-&-so composers are worthless" is profoundly wrong-headed (which, of course, does not mean anything one way or another about the merits of Boulez's music).
I find it a disappointment in his character, and thus a reminder that while one wishes that the artists whose work one admires might be noble personalities, it doesn't always happen that way; and a disappointment in The Environment, that such a person could be thrust into fame and success, essentially by being such a gawdelpus gadfly.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 15, 2011, 06:41:53 AMI find it a disappointment in his character, and thus a reminder that while one wishes that the artists whose work one admires might be noble personalities, it doesn't always happen that way; and a disappointment in The Environment, that such a person could be thrust into fame and success, essentially by being such a gawdelpus gadfly.
I'd say it hardly ever happens that way.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 15, 2011, 06:41:53 AM
I find it a disappointment in his character, and thus a reminder that while one wishes that the artists whose work one admires might be noble personalities, it doesn't always happen that way .
I think this is often a symptom of the 'grand old man' blowing off steam in his latter years. A few years before his death, film director Ingmar Bergman did the same thing, trashing Antonioni and other revered directors. And I have run across this kind of thing pretty often in many areas
Quote from: James on June 15, 2011, 07:41:46 AM
He never said that in that article, (sure he objects to KS's preference to hand pick ensembles & players to play his music, big deal - its no different than any great band leader who does the same) - and if he's said it elsewhere he'd be wrong of course. Tho I've heard Boulez say he felt Stockhausen was the most fascinating composer he's ever known. But then again, as a composer - Boulez can't hold a candle to Stockhausen's galaxy.
So, in
your opinion, he's right about some things and wrong about some others. Good enough for me.
Quote from: James on June 15, 2011, 05:14:48 PM
I've never heard him say post 70s Stockhausen music was anything close to being 'nonsensical' .. or 'interesting for about 5 minutes' or 'just like movie music'. And if he did it would obviously be off the mark. In fact, I have heard just the opposite for the most part and he totally respected Stockhausen as a major composer in a big way, and found him 'the most fascinating and mysterious' .. and i've heard him say that he had no real issues with 'the music' of Licht per se and finds a lot of it 'quite striking', he just wasn't into the text or the mystical religious synchronicities. Tho if you've heard enough Cage, Adams or Glass for instance one can easily understand Boulez is clearly dead on about that stuff.
And Boulez has an opinion like anyone else. He does not represent fact and he certainly doesn't speak for everyone, especially me.
Quote from: James on June 15, 2011, 06:51:23 PMCage is mindless crap.
Your opinion.
Quote from: James on June 15, 2011, 06:51:23 PMGlass is interesting for 5 minutes...
Your opinion.
Quote from: James on June 15, 2011, 06:51:23 PMand Adams is totally forgettable and boring.
And finally...your opinion.
Whether Boulez finds so and so composer horrible is not the issue, James. What is the issue is when opinions are being presented as facts like your own in this instance.
Anyway, I don't have the energy to debate opinion vs. fact with you, because you simply don't understand this concept. You're in your 60s right? ::)
Quote from: James on June 15, 2011, 07:11:39 PM
For me based on experience it is an insight that is about as close to 'fact' as you can get.
Like I said, I'm not going to argue with you about it, because this is a non-issue. Opinion will NEVER equal fact.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 15, 2011, 07:17:14 PM
. . . Opinion will NEVER equal fact.
Especially James's ; )
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2011, 02:30:25 AM
Especially James's ; )
See how Karl uses proper grammar by saying 'James's' with the 's'. One must applaud these things! ;)
(* bows *)
If you've seen as many Guinness labels as I have, it would not look at all strange to you! ; )
(http://www.123posters.com/images/art/a-guinness1.jpg)
Quote from: Coco on April 28, 2011, 05:45:02 PM
Has anyone heard the 2006 version of Dérive II? Apparently it's 45 minutes long — the version on the DG recording is from 2002 and is nearly half the length. Are there any recordings?
The latest (last?) version of Dérive 2 will be recorded this month for Naïve Records by the Ensemble Orchestral Contemporain (EOC), conducted Daniel Kawka:
http://www.qobuz.com/info/MAGAZINE-ACTUALITES/CONCERTS-ET-TOURNEES/Montbrison-rend-hommage-a-Pierre57194
m. Fascinating collection of comments on Boulez the man. All I can do is report from my own life.
Firstly, I was at a performance of pli selon pli many moons ago, PB conducting, and the person sitting next to me was a former member of the BBCSO. He spoke of Boulez in glowing terms and how he cared for the members of the band.
Secondly, I was staying at the Hyatt in Berlin (again a long time ago) and Boulez was staying there as well. His small entourage, a male and female, and he were in conversation over both dinner and breakfast when I saw them. The conversation was the same as any other. Earnest, serious, smiles, laughs, frowns. Boulez did not engage in any "superstar" behaviour. I still regret not going over and telling him how much I admire his music. I have always been shy in front of my heroes.
Thirdly, and this tale is at 2nd or 3rd hand, but there is a prommer who apparently knows PB quite well, and she has had a signed photo of him as a birthday present or something. And I have heard her refer to him as Pierre. I quite like the lady (from my few encounters with her), she is has an amazing appreciation of all kinds of music.
OK that was the other side of the coin of Boulez, homme.
As for his music, I've been to Paris a few times to hear his stuff, conducted by him or in attendance. We have to be grateful he caused the creation of not only IRCAM but the Cité de la musique, with its moveable seating. I heard Anthèmes 2 there played from memory. It was spell binding. Of course as Répons was performed twice I had to go to both performances! I am still amazed at the moments when I think I am hearing the colours of Ravel. Gorgeous!
His concerts are sell outs and you need to get in early or you've had it. In fact, at the Cité quite a lot of avant-garde music sells out. I couldn't afford to go there until nearer the time when they were putting on some Nono, and when I could it was all sold out. At least there is a Holiday Inn across the road, so not far to go bed!
Boulez is looking really old now!
Quote from: Greg on August 20, 2011, 07:39:18 PM
Boulez is looking really old now!
Yes, this is generally what happens when a person ages. ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 20, 2011, 08:24:42 PM
Yes, this is generally what happens when a person ages. ;)
Stockhausen managed to look fairly youthful and sprightly until he died.
Quote from: cassandra on August 20, 2011, 08:12:18 AM
As for his music, I've been to Paris a few times to hear his stuff, conducted by him or in attendance. We have to be grateful he caused the creation of not only IRCAM but the Cité de la musique, with its moveable seating. I heard Anthèmes 2 there played from memory. It was spell binding. Of course as Répons was performed twice I had to go to both performances! I am still amazed at the moments when I think I am hearing the colours of Ravel. Gorgeous!
Thanks, cassandra, for all the Boulez comments. I, too, heard
Anthèmes 2 and
Répons when the Ensemble Intercontemporain did them at Carnegie Hall a few years back. Your comparison with Ravel is spot-on; if Ravel had lived into the late 20th century and had access to computers, he might have come up with something like
Répons - some really gorgeous sonorities there.
Last night heard a fine performance of Boulez's Second Piano Sonata by Taka Kigawa, an excellent pianist with a penchant for contemporary repertoire (his program included Saariaho and Stockhausen). He did the Boulez - a monster at over half an hour - from memory.
--Bruce
Exciting!
Quote from: MDL on August 21, 2011, 03:39:11 AM
Stockhausen managed to look fairly youthful and sprightly until he died.
... after which he began to let himself go.
He's going to conduct music by Schubert in February with Cleveland. I wonder which piece(s).
http://www.clevelandorchestra.com/event-detail/2011-Mar-38.aspx?pid=9109
This New York Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/16/arts/music/kalichstein-laredo-robinson-trio-with-sting-review.html?src=tp) offers the peculiar fact that Pierre Boulez used to attend parties at Paul Simon's place.
Quote from: Brian on September 20, 2011, 08:26:59 AM
This New York Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/16/arts/music/kalichstein-laredo-robinson-trio-with-sting-review.html?src=tp) offers the peculiar fact that Pierre Boulez used to attend parties at Paul Simon's place.
I heard that was the genesis of "You Can Call Me Al" . . . that Boulez was introduced to Paul Simon, but got his name wrong.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 20, 2011, 08:45:02 AM
I heard that was the genesis of “You Can Call Me Al” . . . that Boulez was introduced to Paul Simon, but got his name wrong.
Well, and there in the article is that very story. Might have guessed, I suppose . . . .
Boulez could really have been someone, if he had been cast in a cameo for The Rutles: All You Need Is Cash
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 20, 2011, 09:30:44 AM
Boulez could really have been someone, if he had been cast in a cameo for The Rutles: All You Need Is Cash
And all Boulez did need was cash, of course. A musician-cum-tax lawyer friend once told me that some of Boulez's attempts to not pay tax while in charge of the NYPO ended up as legally significant test cases.
He could take a cue from Douglas Adams, and spend a year dead for tax purposes . . . .
Just got back from Pli selon Pli at the Royal Festival Hall. I'm slightly winded at the idea of paying £35 for a concert that lasted barely one hour, and I have to confess that the minute Boulez appeared on stage, I rushed to grab one of the many more expensive (empty) seats. Christ knows what they were going for. >:(
It's the first time I've heard Pli live, and it confirmed my long-standing impression that this is Boulez's finest achievement. As is his tendency these days, Boulez's reading was warmer, softer and grander than his spiky Sony/CBS recording (still my favourite of the three recordings). But the attention to detail and texture was extraordinary, and the chiming, clanging, twanging sonorities were beguiling. The audience gave it a standing ovation.
Quote from: MDL on October 02, 2011, 01:51:59 PM
Just got back from Pli selon Pli at the Royal Festival Hall. I'm slightly winded at the idea of paying £35 for a concert that lasted barely one hour, and I have to confess that the minute Boulez appeared on stage, I rushed to grab one of the many more expensive (empty) seats. Christ knows what they were going for. >:(
It's the first time I've heard Pli live, and it confirmed my long-standing impression that this is Boulez's finest achievement. As is his tendency these days, Boulez's reading was warmer, softer and grander than his spiky Sony/CBS recording (still my favourite of the three recordings). But the attention to detail and texture was extraordinary, and the chiming, clanging, twanging sonorities were beguiling. The audience gave it a standing ovation.
Thanks for this nice write-up! Sounds like it was a fantastic evening, and so happy to hear that the rest of the audience thought so, too. PS, on Tuesday I'm hearing an excellent group, the Talea Ensemble, play
Le marteau sans maître.
--Bruce
PS, just saw this link posted on Twitter, a video of the same concert just a few days earlier in Paris, and apparently available to view through mid-November.
http://liveweb.arte.tv/fr/video/Pli_selon_Pli_Pierre_Boulez_Ensemble_Intercontemporain_Salle_Pleyel/
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on October 02, 2011, 02:04:22 PM
Thanks for this nice write-up! Sounds like it was a fantastic evening, and so happy to hear that the rest of the audience thought so, too. PS, on Tuesday I'm hearing an excellent group, the Talea Ensemble, play Le marteau sans maître.
--Bruce
It was a really enjoyable evening, although the atmosphere in town is a bit strange; we're having a freak spell of hot weather in the UK (30C in October in London is unheard of) so people are a bit spaced out and cheery.
I've got Boulez's DG recording of
Marteau, which I really like, but I have no idea how it compares to earlier performances. Have you heard the DG ? If so, how does it compare to the earlier (and I assume spikier) recordings?
Quote from: Brewski on October 02, 2011, 02:15:47 PM
PS, just saw this link posted on Twitter, a video of the same concert just a few days earlier in Paris, and apparently available to view through mid-November.
http://liveweb.arte.tv/fr/video/Pli_selon_Pli_Pierre_Boulez_Ensemble_Intercontemporain_Salle_Pleyel/
--Bruce
Ooh, wow! And unless I'm mistaken, Barbara Hannigan was wearing the same frock tonight.
Quote from: MDL on October 02, 2011, 02:21:41 PM
I've got Boulez's DG recording of Marteau, which I really like, but I have no idea how it compares to earlier performances. Have you heard the DG ? If so, how does it compare to the earlier (and I assume spikier) recordings?
I have only heard the DG a few times (and don't have the "A/B" comparison in my head), but tend to share the opinions of those who have say exactly that: the earlier ones are a bit more raw and urgent. But that doesn't make the DG one irrelevant by any means, especially given the almost supernatural playing of the Ensemble Intercontemporain.
Quote from: MDL on October 02, 2011, 02:24:51 PM
Ooh, wow! And unless I'm mistaken, Barbara Hannigan was wearing the same frock tonight.
And now I have to say "wow": I adore Barbara Hannigan, and didn't realize she was the soloist! Got to meet her last December after she did the Grisey
Quatre chants here.
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on October 02, 2011, 02:32:10 PM
I have only heard the DG a few times (and don't have the "A/B" comparison in my head), but tend to share the opinions of those who have say exactly that: the earlier ones are a bit more raw and urgent. But that doesn't make the DG one irrelevant by any means, especially given the almost supernatural playing of the Ensemble Intercontemporain.
And now I have to say "wow": I adore Barbara Hannigan, and didn't realize she was the soloist! Got to meet her last December after she did the Grisey Quatre chants here.
--Bruce
Yes, the DGG version is quite fine! It also has the incredible
Explosante-fixe!
Quote from: Cato on October 02, 2011, 02:45:17 PM
Yes, the DGG version is quite fine! It also has the incredible Explosante-fixe!
No it doesn't.
(http://bilder.preisvergleich.org/products/DE/30/000/009/900/E_000009900142_DE_30.jpg)
Quote from: MDL on October 02, 2011, 02:55:51 PM
No it doesn't.
(http://bilder.preisvergleich.org/products/DE/30/000/009/900/E_000009900142_DE_30.jpg)
Augh! You are right!
It has the incredible
Dérive 1 and
Dérive 2 !!!
Now where is my CD with
Explosante-fixe! :o
Quote from: Cato on October 02, 2011, 03:07:35 PM
Augh! You are right!
It has the incredible Dérive 1 and Dérive 2 !!!
Now where is my CD with Explosante-fixe! :o
I've got a copy.
(http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/6/d/c/0/028944583328_300.jpg)
Quote from: MDL on October 02, 2011, 03:19:16 PM
I've got a copy.
(http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/6/d/c/0/028944583328_300.jpg)
That's the one! My memory switched them around! 0:)
Both CD's are highly recommended!
Quote from: Cato on October 02, 2011, 03:28:19 PM
That's the one! My memory switched them around! 0:)
Both CD's are highly recommended!
True indeed! Sorry, I was a bit blunt earlier! Time for bed, methinks. This heatwave (and a fair amount of beer) is wearing me out.
Perhaps Reynolds Wrap should use Pli selon pli as a Theme Song?
Quote from: toucan on December 24, 2011, 07:52:39 PM
Somewhere in this 3-CD set there is the Quatuor Parrenin's recording of Livre pour Quatuor. I believe it is the first time it appears on CD - and it is high time it would.
(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/BoulezLivre.jpg)
I'm pretty sure that's on 2-3 parts of it. The whole thing is on the Assai label, with the Quatuor Parisii. Great stuff!
Quote from: James on January 09, 2012, 06:35:53 AM
I have 2 live recordings & a video of Derivative II (based on studies he did for Repons, as was Derivative I - hence their titles) conducted by PB himself .. it's not much of an event. Like most Boulez I often prefer the original versions over his constant re-tooling of old works. Hopefully he'll knock out some new music and stop conducting and tinkering with old stuff ,, what a shame all the time & energy he has wasted doing this!
Slightly reminding me of George Lucas, of course with much different results! :'(
Agreed; I've found that Derive II's latest expansion is a but on the flaccid side. I thought the material was a little thin in the 20 minute version, and the 45 minute one is just routine to me--no match for a previous inflation of a small work like sur Incises. I'm hoping for better things in Anthemes III, if it ever surfaces.
Quote from: James on January 09, 2012, 10:48:15 AM
Anthèmes 3 has been talked about for a long time, I hope it involves electronics. Sur Incises is a brilliant composition, so is Répons & ...explosante-fixe... .. I recently got a file of Aimard playing PB's relatively new 2005 little piano ditty Une page d'éphéméride.
I'd like to hear that. I suppose in a few years we'll have
Dix-huit pages d'éphéméride...
Meanwhile, here's a release that caught my eye:
[asin]B005QJ4DC6[/asin]
A recital disc by Hakon Austbo featuring music by Boulez, Carter, and (never heard of him) Asbjørn Schaathun.
Quote from: James on January 22, 2012, 12:48:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/JRfxlCHOoWk
Pianist Taka Kigawa performs Pierre Boulez's Second Sonata, in his sold-out recital at (le) Poisson Rouge, New York City in August 2011. The composer highly praised his playing of this music, as well as his Third Sonata, etc., as "very much impressed by the brilliant way he performed them. He was precise, and at the same time inventive."
Impressive indeed. I really don't know what to think of Boulez's music however. It's good, but does it also affect me? It's kind of abstract music, not very emotional. It's rather flat, as serial music is. It's theoretical.
I need to check out some Donatoni again. I think Donatoni's music is a sort of contender with Boulez's. But it sounds probably less serial to me. He has a much more developed style, a unique sound at least.
I listened also to Beat Furrer today. This is also this kind of rapid music, it seems to me he tries to develop something in this, but it left not much impression on me.
Quote from: Henk on January 22, 2012, 01:54:07 PM
Impressive indeed. I really don't know what to think of Boulez's music however. It's good, but does it also affect me? It's kind of abstract music, not very emotional. It's rather flat, as serial music is. It's theoretical.
I need to check out some Donatoni again. I think Donatoni's music is a sort of contender with Boulez's. But it sounds probably less serial to me. He has a much more developed style, a unique sound at least.
I listened also to Beat Furrer today. This is also this kind of rapid music, it seems to me he tries to develop something in this, but it left not much impression on me.
It is as theoretical as I-IV-II-V-I or a fugue. It is also quite emotional, and not flat at all; you are probably looking for points of reference that are too far removed to give you a sense of discourse or direction, but give it time, and the rewards are worth it. To my ears, Boulez's music, when compared to Donatoni's or Furrer's, stands out as exquisitely put together, with a delicate ear for timbre and sound. Anyway, good of you to at least try and be open about it.
Quote from: petrarch on January 22, 2012, 02:43:00 PM
It is as theoretical as I-IV-II-V-I or a fugue. It is also quite emotional, and not flat at all; you are probably looking for points of reference that are too far removed to give you a sense of discourse or direction, but give it time, and the rewards are worth it. To my ears, Boulez's music, when compared to Donatoni's or Furrer's, stands out as exquisitely put together, with a delicate ear for timbre and sound. Anyway, good of you to at least try and be open about it.
Yes I will try more, but where I really like a modern composer like Donatoni (I just listened to some Donatoni, and it's always nice to listen to his music, my feeling for his music gets better), Boulez surely makes much impression on me (where his fellow Carter does not), but as I said it doesn´t affect me much. I don´t feel a typical Boulez style or sound, it stays for me an example of what serial music sounds like. It may be brilliant music however, and I can reward it on it´s merits, but I would like to experience something more when I listen to music. Of course I may be wrong, but I think I formed my opinion on Boulez (I just confirmed my opinion by listening to a work of Boulez, Notations for piano).
Interesting interview, from last year:
theartsdesk Q&A: Composer Pierre Boulez
Godfather of the avant-garde on how he changed music forever
http://www.theartsdesk.com/classical-music/godfather-avant-garde-how-he-changed-music-forever?page=0,0
Quote from: James on September 13, 2012, 03:08:20 AM
New 3 disc release coming .. Pierre Boulez and the Piano
12 Notations (1945)
Piano Sonatas Nos. 1-3 (1946-57/63)
Incises (1994/2001)
Une page d'éphéméride (2005)
Dimitri Vassilakis, piano
Additionally, Mirjam Wiesemann talks with Pierre Boulez and Dimitri Vassilakis.
[asin]B008L69IPS[/asin]
Yikes, 3cds! :o
I wanted to give a shout out for the
Notations No.7 for orchestra, a very nice single movement that had a rolling 'joyousness' to it, a friendly Boulez piece I think! So, he's only done 1-4 & 7?
Quote from: James on September 13, 2012, 04:09:22 PM
Yup .. he's been working on these since the 1970s and that's all he's managed to get done, not even half of the cycle. At this rate maybe it will be complete when he's 117 years old. And this 3 disc set is an odd release .. essentially 1 disc and a bit of music, mostly old stuff .. and the rest is talk, talk and more talk (something he favours to composing it seems!) Though he's been fairly silent on the conducting scene for a few months now due to an eye condition; so perhaps he has been devoting most of his time and energies to composing finally. He's getting up there!
Notation 7 sounds nothing like the 2 minute piano piece. But I do like it better...
Ohhhh how I hate those "2 discs of talk" sets. I think Hartmann has one. Ugh, who wants thaaat?? Are they charging,... what? Oh, don't get me started,... I get a visceral reaction to dumb cd ideas. >:D
Quote from: James on September 14, 2012, 03:00:57 AM
Yes the Notations for Orchestra should be a fab cycle if he ever manages to complete it .. and like Stockhausen,
it illustrates in his own way .. how he can take an idea, and really do something with the material. I love that.
Have you heard
Notation 7? I notice that Boulez prefers a 'rolling' sound, things tumbling as if in a dryer. I got a distinctly 'African' feel from this piece.
Quote from: James on November 30, 2012, 07:02:09 AM
Just curious .. anyone get this one? Seems hardly worth it for the price tag .. it basically contains 78 minutes of music and the rest of the 3 disc set is rounded out with interviews in German??!?!
Are you QUESTIONING the integrity of the High Council?!?! :o :o :o
oooo,... ve have vays, ve have vays...
Dang, thought you were announcing an obit.
(j/k)
Quote from: James on September 13, 2012, 03:08:20 AM
New 3 disc release coming .. Pierre Boulez and the Piano
12 Notations (1945)
Piano Sonatas Nos. 1-3 (1946-57/63)
Incises (1994/2001)
Une page d'éphéméride (2005)
Dimitri Vassilakis, piano
Additionally, Mirjam Wiesemann talks with Pierre Boulez and Dimitri Vassilakis.
[asin]B008L69IPS[/asin]
Ambitious project from a pianist I've known only from his jazz recordings. He's good, but I had no idea he'd put out something like this.
Quote from: sanantonio on November 30, 2012, 08:00:29 AM
Ambitious project from a pianist I've known only from his jazz recordings. He's good, but I had no idea he'd put out something like this.
Where has Dmitri Vassilakis, a veteran pianist for the Ensemble Intercontemporain and an expert on Stockhausen and Boulez, recorded jazz? Are you sure you're not thinking of Greek saxophonist Dimitrios Vassilakis or Greek jazz pianist Vassilis Tsabropolous?
Quote from: CRCulver on November 30, 2012, 08:17:39 AM
Where has Dmitri Vassilakis, a veteran pianist for the Ensemble Intercontemporain and an expert on Stockhausen and Boulez, recorded jazz? Are you sure you're not thinking of Greek saxophonist Dimitrios Vassilakis or Greek jazz pianist Vassilis Tsabropolous?
You're right - I was thinking of the Greek saxophonist, and felt there was something wrong about him playing piano. Thanks for the correction. I had just Googled him and found my error. Very similar names, but not as confusing as the two Israeli musicians both named Avishai Cohen, one a bassist and the other a trumpeter.
:)
Quote from: James on November 30, 2012, 09:31:06 AMWaiting for Godot
Metaphorically speaking, he's been doing this one for years, hasn't he? ;D
It has all the appearance of a hoax taking the piss out of Monsieur B ; )
Quote from: sanantonio on November 30, 2012, 08:00:29 AM
Ambitious project from a pianist I've known only from his jazz recordings. He's good, but I had no idea he'd put out something like this.
The company behind this seems to like doing 3-CD sets with more interviews than music. They did a Hartmann set with 85 minutes of music on 3 CDs too.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 30, 2012, 11:43:56 AM
It has all the appearance of a hoax taking the piss out of Monsieur B ; )
In fact it was not a joke, he said in an interview that he thought about it. But he will never do it really, that's sure.
On the Boulez front you can note that he recently revised parts of his "impossible to perform" Livres pour quatuor. It is played this month by the very good quatuor Diotima: http://bouffesdunord.com/fr/saison/500eb31858568/quatuor-diotima
Quote from: James on December 01, 2012, 07:13:15 AM
He is still composing, too. Currently he is trying to finish Notations – 12 pieces for piano, some dating back to 1945, which he has been reworking for orchestra. He would also love to adapt Beckett's Waiting for Godot – but will he really tackle it? "If you can give me an elixir of long life," Boulez twinkles.
(from Pierre Boulez: A very modern maestro - August 31, 2012) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5453.msg655586.html#msg655586)
The odds are against him though, statistically, generally, understandably .. composers of such advanced age aren't as prolific Elliott Carter .. but maybe he'll surprise us with tidal wave of new works before the end. Stockhausen pumped out ca.20 compositions in his final year alone including such works as COSMIC PULSES, GLANZ & FÜNF WEITERE STERNZEICHEN. Boulez has been fairly silent this year, so you never know what he's been up to ..
Your German must be improving over the years, hmm?? ;) ;D
Quote from: James on December 01, 2012, 08:48:28 AM
A guide to Pierre Boulez's music
If you want one piece to convince you that the highest
achievements of contemporary music are the opposite of
desiccated, solipsistic experimentalism, listen to Boulez's
Notations
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2011/10/3/1317640967030/Pierre-Boulez--Ensemble-I-007.jpg)
Is THAT PB??? :o???
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/tomserviceblog/2012/jul/16/pierre-boulez-contemporary-music-guide
On the Left Bank, they call him the musical Dorian Gray . . . .
Quote from: James on January 17, 2013, 06:09:27 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LuuRiWXCL._SL500_.jpg)
Almost makes me wish I hadn't bought about three quarters of these CDs individually over the years. What a treasure trove for newbies. There are some fantastic performances in this box. I don't think the BBC
Five Pieces for Orchestra or
Variations have ever been bettered and (assuming it's included), I liked the performance of
Erwartung more than many critics did on its release.
Very cool. Though honestly I do not at all regret fetching the two prior Sony boxes, as I cannot think that their ample booklets are reproduced in this new iteration. The music, which is the important thing, is absolutely magnificent, though.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 18, 2013, 06:43:56 AM
Very cool. Though honestly I do not at all regret fetching the two prior Sony boxes, as I cannot think that their ample booklets are reproduced in this new iteration. The music, which is the important thing, is absolutely magnificent, though.
My sentiments, too.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 18, 2013, 06:43:56 AM
Very cool. Though honestly I do not at all regret fetching the two prior Sony boxes, as I cannot think that their ample booklets are reproduced in this new iteration. The music, which is the important thing, is absolutely magnificent, though.
True, the booklet notes are excellent for mid-price reissues. I picked up the complete Sony Stravinsky when it was reissued in a cheap,
no-frills box, but I can't bear to let go of the handful of individual issues I'd bought earlier; I want to keep the texts and notes.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 18, 2013, 04:16:28 AM
On the Left Bank, they call him the musical Dorian Gray . . . .
He looks like Kevorkian! :o
And the translation of that article is very nearly in English.
Quote from: James on February 12, 2013, 05:12:14 AM
Pierre Boulez wins BBVA contemporary music
The award is endowed with 400,000 euros and recognizes the long history of its various facets musician and as a creator and performer
Daniel Verdú
12 FEB 2013 - 12:37 CET
The directror and French composer Pierre Boulez has won this morning the BBVA Foundation Frontiers of Knowledge Award in the category of Contemporary Music. The jury noted that it granted for "be not only a first-rate composer looking to the future with determination, but also a personality engaged in all aspects of the reflection and transmission of music." According to the jury, "the set of activities reveals his keen sense of intellectual and social responsibility as an artist in modern times.
"The prize, worth 400,000 euros, falls this year on one of the enfants terriblesde classical music. Boulez is in a current always claimed the proximity of science with art. This morning, upon being granted an award that also has its equivalent in other categories, has returned to remember. "Science and music are at the end of the two forms of thought and I've always been in favor of their union."
Asked about the acceptance of contemporary music by broad audiences, Boulez replied that should not stop providing contemporary music by the fact that there is a majority: "We have to expand the repertoire and not fear the public."
The jury also emphasized that Boulez "has contributed to the rapprochement between scientific research, composition and musical practice through the joint creation of the Institute for Research and Coordination Acoustic Music (IRCAM), and the Ensemble Intercontemporain, first stable ensemble contemporary music. "
(http://ep01.epimg.net/cultura/imagenes/2013/02/12/actualidad/1360669053_427970_1360669436_noticia_normal.jpg)
Aye. Good for him. I will only applaud if ever he decides he likes Tchaikovsky after all. >:(
Quote from: Scots John on February 12, 2013, 06:07:18 AM
Aye. Good for him. I will only applaud if ever he decides he likes Tchaikovsky after all. >:(
This won't happen. He doesn't think much about Shostakovich either. A shame because I think Boulez would be interesting in
Symphony No. 15. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 12, 2013, 07:35:38 AM
This won't happen. He doesn't think much about Shostakovich either. A shame because I think Boulez would be interesting in Symphony No. 15. :)
Given that
Boulez tackled
Bruckner's Eighth Symphony and all the
Mahler symphonies and is not averse to early
Schoenberg like the
Gurrelieder, it is more than a shame: I find it odd.
And something I have wondered about:
Boulez conducting the
Prokofiev Second Symphony! :o 8)
Quote from: Cato on February 14, 2013, 03:30:32 AM
Given that Boulez tackled Bruckner's Eighth Symphony and all the Mahler symphonies and is not averse to early Schoenberg like the Gurrelieder, it is more than a shame: I find it odd.
It's not odd at all. Boulez has stated his dislike of Shostakovich, calling him a "second- or third-pressing of Mahler".
I'm not so enthusiastic at this news of Boulez's prize. The classical music blog
On an Overgrown Path has noted how so many classical music cash prizes go to composers and performers who are already fêted millionaires, while younger and less financially secure figures are overlooked.
Quote from: CRCulver on February 14, 2013, 10:16:34 AM
I'm not so enthusiastic at this news of Boulez's prize. The classical music blog On an Overgrown Path has noted how so many classical music cash prizes go to composers and performers who are already fêted millionaires, while younger and less financially secure figures are overlooked.
Word. I love Boulez - both his works and his conducting - and wouldn't hesitate to place laurels on him any time. But that said, that kind of money given to someone else would make a real difference in his/her ability to work at an entirely different level.
--Bruce
Quote from: CRCulver on February 14, 2013, 10:16:34 AM
It's not odd at all. Boulez has stated his dislike of Shostakovich, calling him a "second- or third-pressing of Mahler".
I'm not so enthusiastic at this news of Boulez's prize. The classical music blog On an Overgrown Path has noted how so many classical music cash prizes go to composers and performers who are already fêted millionaires, while younger and less financially secure figures are overlooked.
Agree on the cash prize.
Regarding Shostakovich, discounting Boulez's overly harsh judgement, I too am not interested in Shostakovich's symphonies and will not bemoan Boulez's neglect of them. It is the quartets that I listen to when I want to hear Shostakovich. Despite the near unanimous opinion that he is one of the greatest composers of the 20th century, there is a quality in his music which grates on my senses, and which seems to be more evident in the symphonies. It has to do how he handles (and what I perceive as an overuse of) the technique of sequence.
Quote from: Cato on February 14, 2013, 03:30:32 AM
..., it is more than a shame: I find it odd.
And something I have wondered about: Boulez conducting the Prokofiev Second Symphony! :o 8)
I understand why people do
not find it odd: certainly not every
Shostakovich symphony is equal to
Mahler or
Bruckner or
Hartmann (now there is a gap I really find odd!), but certainly e.g. the
Tenth was good enough to interest that German character with the hair...oh right!
HvK! :laugh:
If Boulez were to give any attention to DSCH's symphonies, he certainly would focus on the two most flourishing and unique, No. 14 and No. 15. :)
Quote from: James on March 01, 2013, 10:04:53 AM
Deutsche Grammophon
Pierre Boulez
Oeuvres Completes - Complete Works
13 CDs
Int. Release 16 Apr. 2013
Nice. Hopefully this will bring Gianluca Cascioli's recording of the 1994 version of
Incises back into print. But I wonder what else will be in the set, as if DG were reissuing just the Boulez volumes in the 20/21 series, it wouldn't extend to 13 CDs. Perhaps they really reached into their archives for this.
Quote from: CRCulver on March 01, 2013, 02:39:06 PM
Nice. Hopefully this will bring Gianluca Cascioli's recording of the 1994 version of Incises back into print.
Doubtful, since the piece was revised in 2001. I don't know if Boulez would like older versions of his pieces being out back out there.
Quote from: lescamil on March 01, 2013, 02:50:04 PM
Doubtful, since the piece was revised in 2001. I don't know if Boulez would like older versions of his pieces being out back out there.
No, the 1994 version of
Incises is still available for performance. (David Fray chose to record it several years ago, instead of the 2001 version, for example). DG has never released yet a recording of the 2001 version, so I'd be surprised to find it in this box set which may be mostly reissues.
If this were a real "complete works" set with fresh recordings of late works, it would have to include
Une page d'éphéméride. Vassilakis has just recorded that for Cybele, so if it were in this set I imagine it would be recorded by Hideki Nagano if the label is going with Boulez's trusted EIC musicians. Of course, this is all speculation.
Quote from: James on March 01, 2013, 10:04:53 AM
Deutsche Grammophon
Pierre Boulez
Oeuvres Completes - Complete Works
13 CDs
Int. Release 16 Apr. 2013
Presto's product page shows some pieces that (it seems) will be newly published in this set. Certainly not a complete listing of the set's contents, yet.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/DG/4806828 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/DG/4806828)
Here's what it says at the moment (I can only find a mention of the set on DG's site, but no product page or contents yet), with more details perhaps forthcoming:
QuoteImprovisé - pour le Dr Kalmus pour piano et quatre instruments
Recording 2012. New recording made for the edition (world-première)
Solistes de l'Ensemble Intercontemporain
Une page d'éphéméride
Recording 2012. New recording made for the edition (world-première)
Hidéki Nagano (piano)
Dérive II
Live recording 2010. Previously unpublished recording.
Ensemble Intercontemporain, Pierre Boulez
Notations I-IV
Live recording 2007. Previously unpublished recording.
Ensemble Modern Orchestra, Pierre Boulez
Notations VII
Live recording 2007. Previously unpublished recording.
Ensemble Modern Orchestra, Pierre Boulez
Livre pour cordes
Live recording 1992, previously published on VHS (DG 0721443)
Orchestre Philharmonique de Vienne, Pierre Boulez
The complete works of one of the greatest contemporary composers have been brought together for the first time in a 13-CD set.
This edition has been completely carried out under the composer's supervision, including the choice of recordings, and features world-class performances by Pierre-Laurent Aimard, BBC Symphony Orchestra, Pierre Boulez, Maurizio Pollini, Ensemble Intercontemporain, Christine Schäfer and others.
This set features new recordings made especially for this edition, works previously unreleased on CD, and an exclusive interview with the composer.
Is anyone else starting to chub? :P
Quote from: James on March 07, 2013, 09:15:18 AM
DG has this listing up (http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/us/cat/single?sort=newest_rec&PRODUCT_NR=4806828&SearchString=Boulez+Complete+Works&UNBUYABLE=1&per_page=50&flow_per_page=50&presentation=flow) .. disappointing, it's just a hodge-podge of stuff brought together from various labels .. 98% of which I have already have, including the odd really, really old recordings incl. in this box .. and not listing ...explosante-fixe... has to be a mistake.
No trace of the Livre pour cordes by the Wiener Philharmoniker or the Notations I-IV and VII mentioned on Presto Classical
Quote from: James on March 07, 2013, 09:15:18 AM
DG has this listing up (http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/us/cat/single?sort=newest_rec&PRODUCT_NR=4806828&SearchString=Boulez+Complete+Works&UNBUYABLE=1&per_page=50&flow_per_page=50&presentation=flow) .. disappointing, it's just a hodge-podge of stuff brought together from various labels .. 98% of which I have already have, including the odd really, really old recordings incl. in this box .. and not listing ...explosante-fixe... has to be a mistake.
(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4806828.jpg)
"Ehh, this is Pierre Boulez. Fuck you. You can suck on my Shitty Box Set!"Oh MY! :o How rude those French can be! :o
Yea, I just went limp. I just didn't care for the forced line-up. DG is the new Brilliant! Who knew? Who knew that the 'Complete Boulez Edition' would elicit cud chewing? This is one of those attempted soul rapes they're trying to foist on us here. I say we respond by a COMPLETE BOYCOTT!
It just smells cheap. It's like the DG logo is just a clearing house symbol. I'm just done with the 'culling' phase of our current Musico-IndusdrialCompleze. I'm imagining DG executives snorting coke off their desks: if they don't want ... frankly, I just want to know how complicit Boulez was in this.
Fra... ok, let me take a deep breath...... ............ ............ ok, I will reserve judgment until I feel the WEIGHT of the actual thing! That's how you can tell true quality. :blank:
LAMENESS RULES THE DARK SIDE
Thanks for that heads up, James; I agree that would seem to be a disappointment. Notice that as of this moment discs 7 and 8 have not been listed at all, similar to the omissions in the listings for the big Abbado box (which listings have now apparently been added). I only glanced over the contents, but based on the running times of some of these discs, quite a bit more material could have been added.
Quote from: Octave on March 07, 2013, 09:25:08 PM
. . . Notice that as of this moment discs 7 and 8 have not been listed at all . . . .
Works-in-progress
Quote from: James on March 08, 2013, 05:21:11 AM
They have incl. 7 & 8 now .. hodge-podge of erato/warner, sony & dg .. plus the live recording of Notations from 2007 .. I still don't see Livre pour Cordes for string orchestra or the recently 2012 expanded/revised SQ version.
CD 7: Pierre Boulez: Oeuvres complètes
Cummings ist der Dichter
Rituel in memoriam Bruno Maderna
Messagequisse
Notations
Memoriale ( explosante fixe . Originel)
CD 8: Pierre Boulez: Oeuvres complètes
... explosante-fixe ...
Anthèmes 2
Ick, it's all the cds we already have, all jumbled up. Oh, thanks, I needed someone to re-Track all the cds so I could have....
aaaAAAARRrRrgGgghHHHHH >:D stupid stupid
Has Improvisé pour le Dr Kalmus been released before? That's the only Boulez piece that I have not heard. I'm pretty disappointed by this box set now, and own almost all of it. If I could just get Improvisé somewhere, I'd be happy.
Yea, I just need to hate on this Box a little more. I'm actually having black fantasies that it's going to be light and flimsy, with crappy notes. A Box HAS to have the impression of heft. Still, 13 cds, must weigh something, haha!
But it's just the mish-mashiness of it. I would just rather have what we already have. Boulez is Dead.
I WOULD start an RIP BOULEZ Thread, but I'm not feeling all that provocative this morning.
But I would
LOVE TO HATE BOULEZ.COM
So I pulled out the old Sony recording of Ritual, In Memoriam Bruno Maderna. My first thought is, what an odd duck of a piece. Perhaps it sounds like an atheist Chronochromie? Anyhow, of course it's an odd, clangorous, lyrical, very deliberate and ritualistic sounding, as only Boulez could sound ritualistic.
My main point is that I was like, WHERE'S the awesome DG recording of this, or the other pieces on the disc, or PFD? As I was listening to the wonderful, yet old, recording, I could only imagine what it would sound like in a full modern spectacular. That Boulez never saw fit to revisit this piece makes me feel even less about the Box. The percussion should have been chosen over a five year period (not that the Sony is bad in any way,... I can just hear a 'dream' version in my head).
Eclat, also, is a very crystalline work that could have benfitted from an awesome DG exercise. It was so short I practically missed it, and didn't make it into Multiples.
Anyhow, I HAVE been enjoying a Boulez retrospective, now that it seems we have what we have.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 17, 2013, 08:03:17 AM
So I pulled out the old Sony recording of Ritual, In Memoriam Bruno Maderna. My first thought is, what an odd duck of a piece. Perhaps it sounds like an atheist Chronochromie? Anyhow, of course it's an odd, clangorous, lyrical, very deliberate and ritualistic sounding, as only Boulez could sound ritualistic. My main point is that I was like, WHERE'S the awesome DG recording of this, or the other pieces on the disc, or PFD?
David Robertson conducted
Rituel on a Naïve disc a decade or so ago (along with the
Notations for orchestra and
Figures-Doubles-Prismes). He seems to have been coached by Boulez in making the recording. I think that's the best we'll ever get.
Pli Selon Pli
I know I'm raggin' on Boulez a lot, but I pulled out 'Pli selon pli' (Erato), and, wow, it's such a wonderfully desolate score, huge and ritualistic, with a manner of plucked mandolins (I'm assuming) and such. It almost has the feel of a very 'neat' Xenakis score from the '60s, feeling ancient and modern at the same time. The feeling of being in a vast, overgrown ruin is palpable to this listener.
Whenever I start getting down on Boulez, I need to go for his 'early' works, haha!
Pli selon pli is wonderful. Hm, I need to give that another spin soon . . . .
Quote from: James on May 25, 2013, 09:17:58 PM
Saw Boulez was in the recent BBC film The Sound and the Fury: A Century of Modern Music (2013) and he wears dark shades throughout .. but you can see enough through them to notice that his eyes are suffering bad. I wondered if he's able to see at all.
One can hope that this was filmed shortly after he had eye surgery last year & that this is the major reason.
Quote from: edward on May 26, 2013, 11:28:15 AM
One can hope that this was filmed shortly after he had eye surgery last year & that this is the major reason.
He looks quite healthy for an 88 years old man on this recent picture: https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/971568_10151643349560857_1557207331_n.jpg
Here's a rare recording of Boulez works not conducted by Boulez.
[asin]B006CC9GW8[/asin]
So far have listened to Memoriale (for solo flute and 8 instruments) and Derive I. Memoriale, in particular, made a very strong impression. A sequence of disjointed melodic fragments from flute with accompaniment by the rest of the ensemble which ranges from murmuring, the chattering, to caterwauling. Fascinating. Derive I was also interesting, but less vivid. Going on the Derive II.
Listened to the flute and piano sonata, and Piano Sonata No 1 from this disc.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41X%2BXiXnzKL._SX300_.jpg)
Wonderfully engaging music. I am tending to agree with the now departed Philo that the piano music is the best of Boulez.
Here's a recent interview (in French) where he says he finally decided to place his composition work before his conducting work, but he adds "Cela est arrivé un peu tard, certes' (it's a little bit late).
He's working on Notation VIII...
At ther end he says that he's absolutely not optimistic about the place of classical music in society nowadays, even in Germany...
http://brunoserrou.blogspot.be/2013/06/entretien-avec-pierre-boulez-le-coffret.html
The creators of classical music must now pursue their passion without the luxury of optimism. Pierre should count his numerous circumstantial blessings.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 20, 2013, 08:12:18 AM
The creators of classical music must now pursue their passion without the luxury of optimism. Pierre should count his numerous circumstantial blessings.
And Soon the Purges!!
The NSA Opera!
Perhaps soon we too will have the opportunity to...
...nevermind ::)... sleepy..
Quote from: James on August 27, 2013, 02:03:15 PM
Pierre Boulez Breaks His Shoulder, Cancels in Lucerne
August, 2013
WQXR Staff
The conductor Pierre Boulez has cancelled concerts on Sept. 7 and 9
at the Lucerne Festival in Switzerland as the result of a broken
shoulder. A festival spokesman declined to say how the injury
occurred, or for how long he will be sidelined.
Get well soon!
At 88!
A new pieno work by Boulez has just been premiered in Strasbourg. It's called "Esquisse d'une ébauche" and it lasts... 30 seconds...
http://lafleurdudimanche.blogspot.be/2013/09/musica-des-participants-de-marque.html
Quote from: James on October 08, 2013, 06:23:41 AM
Perhaps a 'seed' for a larger work down the road? Nah, pipe dreams at Boulez's rate of creativity. Sad & frustrating there has been so little, for so long. Still no Anthèmes III etc., etc.
I saw some reference to
Anthèmes III in an interview a few months back in which he said (paraphrasing from memory) "it's probably too late now."
Which is a very sad thing to hear someone say... sometimes I get the impression that behind the often aggressive exterior is a man almost intellectually crippled by perfectionism and lack of self-belief (it's now nearly 60 years since
Marteau and since then almost every major work has been repeatedly revised or left incomplete).
You don't get extra points for being "anguished," still less when so much is handed you on a platter. Viz. conducting, well, that was his own choice, wasn't it? He was always more energetic as a propagandist than as a creator.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 08, 2013, 09:31:55 AM
You don't get extra points for being "anguished," still less when so much is handed you on a platter. Viz. conducting, well, that was his own choice, wasn't it? He was always more energetic as a propagandist than as a creator.
In a film about Boulez (I forget which one) he talks a bit about this choice. He said, if IIRC, that since composing, per se, does not really pay until you begin to have commissions, the career choices for composers generally fall down to two: teacher or performer/conductor. Since he did not have much interest in obtaining an academic position, that left conducting. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I do think he considers himself a composer first - but his conducting career took off, and much like Bernstein - chose to not turn down a lucrative post(s) when offered.
I don't think any of us are in the position to judge what Boulez has done with his dual career as a composer and conductor. Notice how I put composer before conductor. While he has mentioned many, many times how fortunate he was to continue to be able to conduct, he is still first and foremost a composer. It doesn't matter really if he's composed 15 works. What matters is the quality of the music and not the quantity. Look at Dutilleux. He didn't exactly churn out the music did he? Who really cares in the end? If the music touches us, we should be grateful that this composer has even taken the time to write at all.
Quote from: sanantonio on October 08, 2013, 09:46:39 AM
In a film about Boulez (I forget which one) he talks a bit about this choice. He said, if IIRC, that since composing, per se, does not really pay until you begin to have commissions, the career choices for composers generally fall down to two: teacher or performer/conductor. Since he did not have much interest in obtaining an academic position, that left conducting. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I do think he considers himself a composer first - but his conducting career took off, and much like Bernstein - chose to not turn down a lucrative post(s) when offered.
Aye, all that is plain sense.
Quote from: James on October 09, 2013, 02:55:02 AM
We realize that. And you forgot founder/director of musical institutions. Anyhow .. some of us who have been following his entire career closely for a long, long time (or since the beginning) CARE .. and are always eager for more from this artist - that's all. Understand?
I didn't forget anything, James. Making a mountain out of a molehill again I see. ::)
Portraits in Sycophancy $:)
I haven't seen this disc mentioned in the thread; does anyone have an opinion on it, esp. relative to the other performances (notably Jumppanen, Pollini, Biret, etc)?
[asin]B0009X1LG0[/asin]
Boulez: NOTATIONS AND PIANO SONATAS [Pi-Hsien Chen] (hatART, 2011)
I became interested in her Boulez after running across mention of this OOP Telos disc with her (older?) recordings of the Douze notations and the Third Sonata, plus an enticing effort at the craggy Barraque sonata. Unfortunately this disc is rather expensive now. [Edit: the back cover the of the hatART mentions that Douze notations were recorded in 1997, so maybe that recording overlaps from the Telos release; the three hatART Sonatas were recorded 2002/4.]
[asin]B00000DFLQ[/asin]
Anyone familiar with how Universal Edition has locked down the rights for Boulez's works? I'm curious if, once the maestro is no longer among us, musicians will be free to perform earlier versions of works (namely earlier versions of Pli selon pli, which I think has been expanded too far). While the various expansions might be Boulez's last word on the subject, I'd hate to think that they will forever be the only versions open for performance.
David Fray got to record the original 1994 version of Incises instead of the 2001 expansion, so that is a hopeful sign.
"Fragment d'une ébauche", Strasbourg, France september 2013, World Premeire, 24 seconds. Wilhelm Latchoumia, piano :
http://la-feuille-de-chou.fr/archives/56938
Quote from: Joaquimhock on November 16, 2013, 10:11:41 PM
"Fragment d'une ébauche", Strasbourg, France september 2013, World Premeire, 24 seconds. Wilhelm Latchoumia, piano :
http://la-feuille-de-chou.fr/archives/56938
Sounds a lot like Incises, his solo piano work that was expanded to Sur Incises. One wonders how he is coming along with his other music he is writing/revising, especially with his health seemingly a constant problem in his advanced age.
Yeah, very similar indeed to Incises. Too similar, really, almost like an extract of the earlier work with the exact same material (I'll have to get ahold of the score to this new work).
I finally gave Une page d'éphéméride a listen. I was very surprised how un-Boulezian it feels. It could have been written by Messiaen or Dutilleux.
Hu, this is from 2010, and this was a supposition from Machart, who isn't really reliable.
Is there anything new on the subject ?
Quote from: James on November 23, 2013, 02:09:10 AM
In 1952 Boulez met a man who possessed a comparable amount of genius, arrogance, and ambition -- Karlheinz Stockhausen.
For crying out loud, does every post you make have anything to do with any other composer besides Stockhausen? This is the Boulez thread, not the Stockhausen thread, James.
Quote from: James on November 23, 2013, 08:53:40 AM
Yea .. and the post is clearly about Boulez.
I guess you can't read either. ::)
The beauty of copy-and-paste.
Is now Boulez the last survivor?
Oh how the Mighty High Modernists have fallen.
The public would never have their music. Boulez is like the Obama of music?, forcing unpalatability as breakfast lunch, and dinner! Which of these Composers was NOT a scoffer of God Almighty? And then there was one...
My question is, Is the ethos of High Modernism- that feeling around 1969-71 that anything was possible- the electricity is the air- is it here now, or did it die around 1993 at the latest?
Quote from: snyprrr on December 22, 2013, 08:52:45 PM
Is now Boulez the last survivor?
You're just nervous about the new
Wuorinen opera, aren't you?
Quote from: James on December 23, 2013, 09:01:55 AM
Based on what I'm hearing, it doesn't seem likely IMO. Stuff I'm hearing being created these days (which isn't a lot mind you) is a mixture or derivative what has already been done .. However, there is more 'electricity' surrounding the works of the BIG post-war figures; the stuff is getting more and more attention as the generations turnover. Ligeti does well. Stockhausen's work is flourishing (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3533.msg727024.html#msg727024). The Yearlong Rest is Noise Festival was a resounding success (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21001.msg761143.html#msg761143) - esp. the post-war "avant-garde" concerts. Boulez works performed during televised PROM series alongside Beethoven to record numbers. (http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2012/jul/26/beethoven-boulez-barenboim-proms) New recordings being issued & re-issued, growing internet activity .. all of this (and more) keep those flames burning. Have all of the major musical statements to posterity been made? In a way, being someone who is set in their musical ways for some time now .. I sort-of view JS Bach as the beginning and Stockhausen the end or a great, great run. Those posts and all the best in-between could keep us occupied indefinitely. Though I can easily imagine electronics & technology being the future more & more (even more than now!). The up & comers don't really have time on their side at this point, and it is much more difficult these days with all that history behind them, and the fact that music has to compete with so much these days, things are so fragmented, diverse .. a grand recontextualization is in order?
Huh,... you almost sound as thoughtful as me!?!?! ;)
1) Yes, whilst Boulez breathes, you're right, just about all of his generation are really being revered as probably the greatest generation ever. Ligeti seems to have gotten the TeenBeat Award for "uh Dude, I Remember that from'2001'" PopPsych quotient. Frankly, Boulez & co. DID set themselves up for a great posterity- they mourished this whole new generation of conductors and ensembles which seem to have made it their lives' work to diseminate (I can't spell any word right with semen in it, ack!!) the masters' Woirks (just get on with it for the Xenakis Edition and be done with it already!!!- he seems to be the Fogerty of the bunch, haha)... anyhow, you get points for making it through that last sentence, ???
2) The Future of Music: with computer music, they can probably woosh more information passed you ear than your brain can decipher, nano-speed stasis, that I think music will again (Joshua) be used as a weapon.
Music was never supposed to take the place of God.
3) The Age of Genius is Now Passed? What use is it when it couldn't achieve World Peace when it was poised to do so (or so it thought)?
I just wonder if Boulez is seeing his generation's Vision dying before his eyes? At least what I've gathered from some of these masters, they ended up a bitter bitter hellfruit basket. I mean, there ARE storires!! I'll give you, Stockhausen seems the more content among them, but, I mean, he really did write the Devils' Music, so, mm,...???!!!???!!! There are stories of Xenakis being 'disillusioned'. Were they all just a bunch of commie utopian bastards bent on universal healthcare....aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh.... ok, I feel better now! :laugh:
My experience is that I don't personally like the people who love this High Modernism like we do. I DO like to think... well, mm, maybe not- that we could somewhat sit in a room and chat GMG without the Hegelian Dialectic happening. Maybe that's why there's a fForum? Why is this that I probably would loathe the company of these masters whose music I have (GROWN) to love?
Quote from: James on December 24, 2013, 05:24:49 AM
;D
Seriously .. he & the others devoted everything to music, & the great complexity, uniqueness (& beauty) found in a lot of the works (documented, preserved, built to last) will ensure continued future interest & study for centuries to come. And its never easy staying true to yourself, not succumbing to pressures, it takes an iron will. Artists in particular who bare all & stay true, are ridiculed and subject to criticism and scrutiny constantly & publicly .. so doubts and insecurities will set in.
Let's hope so. Have you seen "Idiocracy"?
I see your point though.
Quote from: James on December 24, 2013, 05:24:49 AM
Seriously .. he & the others devoted everything to music, & the great complexity, uniqueness (& beauty) found in a lot of the works (documented, preserved, built to last) will ensure continued future interest & study for centuries to come. And its never easy staying true to yourself, not succumbing to pressures, it takes an iron will. Artists in particular who bare all & stay true, are ridiculed and subject to criticism and scrutiny constantly & publicly .. so doubts and insecurities will set in.
On the face of it, all that is true. That said, I don't feel comfortable, lauding
Boulez as A Great Man, for these things which are my own daily bread.
Quote from: James on December 24, 2013, 07:42:39 AM
Love him or hate him, one cannot deny that he is very accomplished & disciplined. A fine example of a human being in many ways imo.
Well at least he has grown, but I can't say he has been such a fine human being in his younger days. Extraordinary musician, though.
There are so many options other than "love him or hate him"; that's just fan-boy jabber.
"A fine example of a human being"? Well, considering the source of the remark . . . . ;)
And some fans are neither.
Quote from: James on December 25, 2013, 07:18:21 AM
And this is what I was speaking to, a man on the chosen path, achieving, realizing ambitions, staying true, very accomplished etc.; our friend karl can only dream.
Karl Henning has more talent in his pinky than you have in your entire body. That's why he's a composer and you're not. You sound like a complete fool, James.
Quote from: James on December 25, 2013, 03:07:52 PM
The comparison was to Boulez obviously, not me.
I know, but what I'm saying is you're a fool for even trying to compare Boulez and Henning. Boulez is a gifted musician, no question about it, but so is Karl, but to make Boulez's accomplishments seem like they're much greater is purely moronic on your part, James. My understanding is that Karl is
trying his hardest to promote his music, but, unfortunately, he also has to work for a living, too. Something Boulez may have an understanding of but hasn't really had to do other than to be conductor, which would be like the greatest job in the world. So, like I said, you can't compare the two, but one thing is for sure, you're the copy-and-paste whiz, so you definitely have mastered that skill. I tremble in your presence oh exulted one.
Quote from: James on December 25, 2013, 03:27:21 PM
:)
Well, put it this way .. Boulez made very good with his time and was highly successful and accomplished on many fronts;
but who knows, our friend karl still has time on his side, at least.
Again, you're comparing two people that can't be compared. I can't speak for Karl, obviously, but I've spoken with Carl Vine on FB and he's said as long as he's composing, he's happy. Composers, like writers, must unburden themselves with what they're hearing in their minds and the fact that Karl has the ability to do this and put his thoughts to paper is nothing short than astounding. It's one thing not to like someone's music, which I dislike Boulez's, but it's another thing entirely to compare two different composers' accomplishments which you have so idiotically done.
On February 25th, at 8:00 pm Central European Time, the Cité de la Musique in Paris, is offering this interesting concert:
Présences 2014 Paris / Berlin
Jörg Widmann
Armonica
Johannes Boris Borowski
Change
Pierre Boulez
Le visage nuptial
Chœur de femmes de Radio France, Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France
Pascal Rophé, conductor
Laura Aikin (soprano), Hilary Summers (contralto), Christa Schoenfeldinger (glass harmonica).
The concert will be streamed live by www.citedelamusiquelive.tv and www.medici.tv .
This is a rare opportunity to listen to Boulez's early, extremely lyrical cantata on René Char's poems. :)
Cool!
A fine human being? Not as I recall. And a deadly dull composer. But what a conductor!
Quote from: Ken B on February 14, 2014, 12:53:06 PM
A fine human being? Not as I recall.
While Boulez is infamous for some gadfly remarks, most made many decades ago, much classical music gossip since the 1970s has emphasized how charming and polite he is in person, in spite of the fearsome image. And then there are the composers who express their gratitude for the institutional support he obtained for them. A complex character, but certainly one that has his admirers.
QuoteAnd a deadly dull composer.
Considering that this thread is about Boulez as a composer, what's the point of coming here just to post a content-free negative opinion like that?
Quote from: CRCulver on February 14, 2014, 09:42:32 PM
While Boulez is infamous for some gadfly remarks, most made many decades ago, much classical music gossip since the 1970s has emphasized how charming and polite he is in person, in spite of the fearsome image.
You mean he put on that turd-in-the-punchbowl act just for notoriety and publicity, to make a name for himself? Which suggests that he's just a tawdry opportunist?
I am shocked, shocked, shocked, I tell you . . . .
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 25, 2013, 03:32:37 PM
Again, you're comparing two people that can't be compared. I can't speak for Karl, obviously, but I've spoken with Carl Vine on FB and he's said as long as he's composing, he's happy. Composers, like writers, must unburden themselves with what they're hearing in their minds and the fact that Karl has the ability to do this and put his thoughts to paper is nothing short than astounding.
Karl Henning composing away in New England reminds one of that other Yankee, whose music was practically unknown and rarely played for a long time: how would people have judged
Charles Ives at age 50?
A very good insurance man probably! ;) And probably because of his heart attack in his mid-40's, somehow the composing ability faded. Thank heavens
Karl is still producing assorted gems on a regular basis!
On
Boulez being rather prickly, how unpleasant were certain other composers known to be?
Lully, Beethoven, Wagner, Bernard Herrmann, etc. ?
And how about anger-management-challenged
Carlo Gesualdo? :o
Quote from: CRCulver on February 14, 2014, 09:42:32 PM
Considering that this thread is about Boulez as a composer, what's the point of coming here just to post a content-free negative opinion like that?
I could ask, considering how dull a composer he is what's the point of having a thread about him? But it appears I need to ask your permission first so I won't.
Quote from: Ken B on February 15, 2014, 08:31:10 AM
I could ask, considering how dull a composer he is what's the point of having a thread about him?
Has it not occurred to you that people's musical tastes differ, and that not everyone finds Boulez "dull" like you? How autistic does one have to be to come to a place where fans are discussing something they enjoy and suggest that it has no value to anyone?
Quote from: CRCulver on February 15, 2014, 09:06:03 AM
Has it not occurred to you that people's musical tastes differ, and that not everyone finds Boulez "dull" like you? How autistic does one have to be to come to a place where fans are discussing something they enjoy and suggest that it has no value to anyone?
Well sir I did no such thing. I expressed an opinion and I did it without attacking anyone. I expect you find odd. But mostly I was reacting to the claim he was a great human being. Compared to Ted Bundy? Sure. By normal standards? No.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 15, 2014, 04:20:07 AM
You mean he put on that turd-in-the-punchbowl act just for notoriety and publicity, to make a name for himself? Which suggests that he's just a tawdry opportunist? I am shocked, shocked, shocked, I tell you . . . .
I rather suspect it's also to do with the hyper-masculine environment of the early Darmstadt years. Boulez, Stockhausen and Nono were all playing alpha male, determined to lay down the direction of new music and steamrollering any opposition in their way. As they grew older and (one hopes) wiser, this kind of competitive behaviour seemed to recede into the background (as did Boulez's compositional career).
Are there alpha males in Urantia? If so, how do they compare to ours?
Quote from: edward on February 15, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
I rather suspect it's also to do with the hyper-masculine environment of the early Darmstadt years. Boulez, Stockhausen and Nono were all playing alpha male, determined to lay down the direction of new music and steamrollering any opposition in their way. As they grew older and (one hopes) wiser, this kind of competitive behaviour seemed to recede into the background (as did Boulez's compositional career).
They'd have been better served trying to influence the music of the future the way Debussy did it: by writing good music. Boringly conventional I know.
For me, Le marteau sans maitre is pretty good. So is Gruppen.
Quote from: CRCulver on February 15, 2014, 09:06:03 AM
Has it not occurred to you that people's musical tastes differ, and that not everyone finds Boulez "dull" like you? How autistic does one have to be to come to a place where fans are discussing something they enjoy and suggest that it has no value to anyone?
In general, when one finds a topic marked "
Pierre Boulez," the assumption is that people who
like the music of that composer will be the ones writing about it.
To be sure, one could write e.g. "I find your interest in the music of
Boulez odd, because I find it deadly dull. What specifically do you hear in it that so fascinates you? Maybe I am missing something."
Then if, after reading any advice on what to listen for, and making another attempt at a work or two, one still finds it deadly dull, then one can write: "Well, thanks for explaining. I still don't hear anything in it for me."
And then migrate toward a composer for whom one has an affinity. 0:)
It is frankly hilarious on a thread about a man who dismissed almost all the music and composers of his lifetime as "useless" to hear complaints that some call his music dull.
Anyway folks my interest was in the absurd claim he was an admirable guy.
Quote from: Cato on February 15, 2014, 12:53:22 PM
In general, when one finds a topic marked "Pierre Boulez," the assumption is that people who like the music of that composer will be the ones writing about it.
He has every right to express himself critically about any composer he wishes. Discussions about a composer should not be limited to cheerleading, and we don't need the kind of defensiveness that erupts when the merits of sacred cows like Havergal Brian and Joly Braga Santos are questioned. I myself am partial to much of Boulez's work, but there is some justification to Stravinsky's claim that
Pli selon pli can be "pretty monotonous and monotonously pretty."
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 15, 2014, 01:35:41 PM
He has every right to express himself critically about any composer he wishes. Discussions about a composer should not be limited to cheerleading,
Agreed.
Quote from: edward on February 15, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
I rather suspect it's also to do with the hyper-masculine environment of the early Darmstadt years. Boulez, Stockhausen and Nono were all playing alpha male, determined to lay down the direction of new music and steamrollering any opposition in their way. As they grew older and (one hopes) wiser, this kind of competitive behaviour seemed to recede into the background (as did Boulez's compositional career).
I should hope this kind of macho posturing should be familiar to anyone who participates on GMG, particularly considering how many of you are engaging in it right now. :)
Boulez's music has always seemed somewhat cold and undifferentiated to me, but lately I've been enjoying the 2nd piano sonata more than I used to. It's almost like a Schubert or Mendelssohn to Barraqué's Beethoven (... almost).
Quote from: Pessoa on February 15, 2014, 12:51:43 PM
For me, Le marteau sans maitre is pretty good. So is Gruppen.
I trust you're aware that Gruppen is by Stockhausen.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 15, 2014, 03:01:11 PM
I trust you're aware that Gruppen is by Stockhausen.
Boulez and Stockhausen were both mentioned as two alpha-males who´d better try to influence the world by writing good music.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 15, 2014, 01:35:41 PM
He has every right to express himself critically about any composer he wishes. Discussions about a composer should not be limited to cheerleading, and we don't need the kind of defensiveness that erupts when the merits of sacred cows like Havergal Brian and Joly Braga Santos are questioned. I myself am partial to much of Boulez's work, but there is some justification to Stravinsky's claim that Pli selon pli can be "pretty monotonous and monotonously pretty."
Nobody said anything different. A person who dislikes a composer is free to explain his dislike of the composer in all sorts of ways: not all ways are equal however.
e.g. I recently explained why I thought a specific part of
Mendelssohn's Midsummer Night's Dream Overture was weak.
By explaining one's dislike with specific examples, the discourse is raised to a higher level.
But everyone can feel free not to do that! 0:)
https://www.youtube.com/v/nu1u5uBe9So
Dérive I (1984)
The Ensemble Intercontemporain
Pierre Boulez, cond.
Pierre Boulez wrote Dérive in 1984. It is a six-minute chamber work for flute, clarinet, violin, cello, vibraphone, and piano which was spun out of sketches for a larger work from 1981, entitled Répons.
Quote from: sanantonio on February 15, 2014, 05:57:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/nu1u5uBe9So
Dérive I (1984)
The Ensemble Intercontemporain
Pierre Boulez, cond.
Pierre Boulez wrote Dérive in 1984. It is a six-minute chamber work for flute, clarinet, violin, cello, vibraphone, and piano which was spun out of sketches for a larger work from 1981, entitled Répons.
Many thanks for this example!
Quote from: edward on February 15, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
I rather suspect it's also to do with the hyper-masculine environment of the early Darmstadt years. Boulez, Stockhausen and Nono were all playing alpha male, determined to lay down the direction of new music and steamrollering any opposition in their way. As they grew older and (one hopes) wiser, this kind of competitive behaviour seemed to recede into the background (as did Boulez's compositional career).
Very sensible evaluation.
Quote from: Pessoa on February 15, 2014, 12:51:43 PM
For me, Le marteau sans maitre is pretty good. So is Gruppen.
Agreed.
Quote from: Cato on February 15, 2014, 06:38:09 AM
Karl Henning composing away in New England reminds one of that other Yankee, whose music was practically unknown and rarely played for a long time: how would people have judged Charles Ives at age 50?
A very good insurance man probably! ;) And probably because of his heart attack in his mid-40's, somehow the composing ability faded. Thank heavens Karl is still producing assorted gems on a regular basis!
On Boulez being rather prickly, how unpleasant were certain other composers known to be? Lully, Beethoven, Wagner, Bernard Herrmann, etc. ?
And how about anger-management-challenged Carlo Gesualdo? :o
As I told Karl before on his own composer thread, his time will come. Karl is amazingly prolific by contemporary standards.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 15, 2014, 07:27:32 PM
As I told Karl before on his own composer thread, his time will come. Karl is amazingly prolific by contemporary standards.
And consider that a good amount of his composing, or at least initial sketching, takes place in public, not at a silent retreat in the mountains, or by a calm New England pond!
It would be an interesting question to know whether
Karl's music would be different in any way, if he had a different process.
On
Boulez: for some reason, he has not been prolific, motivated instead to revise/re-compose earlier works. One might have expected a good number of major works in the last c. 40 years, certainly more than have appeared. I believe the 1970's saw no publications of a new work.
(However, who knows what might still be lurking in his desk?) 0:)
Quote from: edward on February 15, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
I rather suspect it's also to do with the hyper-masculine environment of the early Darmstadt years. Boulez, Stockhausen and Nono were all playing alpha male, determined to lay down the direction of new music and steamrollering any opposition in their way. As they grew older and (one hopes) wiser, this kind of competitive behaviour seemed to recede into the background (as did Boulez's compositional career).
From the "gossip" I've heard, misogyny has not receded in the background in Boulez's behaviour.
About the competitive behaviour, why would he have such behaviour now, when he managed (with the help of all the people who wanted a place at the king's court) to crush politicaly, economicaly and socially any dissident voice in France. He's got no competition whatsoever, and he's got the institutions to protect him.
Quote from: James on February 16, 2014, 05:16:03 AM
I occasionally wonder the same thing. Perhaps he has a few recently completed major works stashed away.
This is highly unlikely, as Boulez never wrote any major work. ;D
Quote from: James on February 16, 2014, 05:16:03 AM
I occasionally wonder the same thing. Perhaps he has a few recently completed major works stashed away.
One can hope. It's rather sad to realize that I went to the world premiere of
sur Incises over 15 years ago, and the only major work since then has been the hyper-expanded version of
Derive II (which didn't impress me at all).
Quote from: edward on February 16, 2014, 06:17:45 AM
One can hope. It's rather sad to realize that I went to the world premiere of sur Incises over 15 years ago, and the only major work since then has been the hyper-expanded version of Derive II (which didn't impress me at all).
Sorry Edward, you can't say that. You have to explain, in detail,
why it didn't impress you.
Quote from: Ken B on February 16, 2014, 06:23:02 AM
Sorry Edward, you can't say that. You have to explain, in detail, why it didn't impress you.
Not compulsory, but it would be nice! :D
Quote from: edward on February 16, 2014, 06:17:45 AM
One can hope. It's rather sad to realize that I went to the world premiere of sur Incises over 15 years ago, and the only major work since then has been the hyper-expanded version of Derive II (which didn't impress me at all).
Sometimes the compulsion to create art just fades away, or the ability to be satisfied with what one has created in later years is lacking e.g. the
Eighth Symphony of
Sibelius.
Does calling someone autistic count as nice Cato? No need to answer; it's clear Boulezian standards apply here. I have thoughtfully provided three quotes from the man himself.
The most recent work I know about is a short (4') work for piano ~
Une Page d'Ephemeride (2005)
https://www.youtube.com/v/y4asMz_EVzg
Interview with Boulez (seems fairly recent, maybe within the last five years); talks about his works, about 20 min.
https://www.youtube.com/v/ie5Ore2rjhk
Quote from: Ken B on February 16, 2014, 06:35:34 AM
Does calling someone autistic count as nice Cato? No need to answer; it's clear Boulezian standards apply here. I have thoughtfully provided three quotes from the man himself.
Artistic, yes, autistic, no. 0:)
Many thanks to
San Antonio for digging into YouTube for those links!
An interesting comment from an "Ivor Morgan" on YouTube about
Ephemeride:
QuoteI wonder if this is not a 'rescue' of the Trois Psalmedies that he composed in 1945 when he came to Paris. It is claimed that a recording exists in the archives of RTF but Boulez forbad its being broadcast.
Quote from: Cato on February 16, 2014, 04:12:47 AMI believe the 1970's saw no publications of a new work.
Messagesquisse,
cummings est der Dichter and
Rituel all date from the 1970s. The original version of
"...explosante-fixe... too.
Quote from: Mr Bloom on February 16, 2014, 05:07:34 AM
Why would he have such behaviour now, when he managed (with the help of all the people who wanted a place at the king's court) to crush politicaly, economicaly and socially any dissident voice in France.
Considering that Dutilleux and Xenakis managed to go on working just fine, often with state support, in spite of their opposition to Boulez's aesthetic, the claim that Boulez crushed all opposition rings hollow. Within a decade of the opening of IRCAM, an institution that was supposedly a sign of Boulez's grip on French music, the majority of composers working there were largely opposed to Boulez. Some "crushing".
There are a few French neo-Romantic populist composers who like to blame Boulez's eminence for their lack of success, but I daresay they would have saw little success in those decades regardless of the power held by a few high modernists: think about how most American composers of that kind of music fail to gain any following even when they are working in a society that is an aesthetic free-for-all.
Quote from: Cato on February 16, 2014, 06:25:54 AM
Not compulsory, but it would be nice! :D
Essentially, a sense that it's retreading ground already covered in
Repons and
sur Incises, with diminishing returns.
More subjective view: I think that
Repons and
sur Incises, though they have many memorable passages, could possibly have been better works if they had been a bit shorter. For me, the 45-minute
Derive II is distinctly lighter on memorable writing and heavier on note-spinning than those other two, and is simply far too long for its material.
Quote from: CRCulver on February 16, 2014, 07:24:22 AM
Messagesquisse, cummings est der Dichter and Rituel all date from the 1970s. The original version of "...explosante-fixe... too.
Aha! I thought the claim was a little odd, but found no contradiction after checking a few sites.
"Some crushing."
Not for want of trying. In any case probably no single person did more, and tried more, to marginalize and punish other composers, or damage classical music in the broader culture, than Boulez.
Quote from: CRCulver on February 16, 2014, 07:27:55 AM
Considering that Dutilleux and Xenakis managed to go on working just fine
The case of Xenakis is interesting, because in his case this is plain wrong : for example, IRCAM was supposed to be a collaboration between Boulez and Xenakis, but Xenakis left the projet very fast, sickened by the whole thing. He created CEMAMu as a result, but didn't get the public founding he needed - most of the state money for contemporary music went to Boulez's projects, and little was left for others (Boulez was great politician, something Xenakis wasn't). CEMAMu was a failure in Xenakis' eyes, and Xenakis did have many difficulties in his career because of the rivalry between him and Boulez - not necessarily from Boulez himself, but from people around him. At the end of his life, Xenakis was bitter and tired by the state of things he had to fight against in France.
As stupid as it sounds, Xenakis is still these days a name you shouldn't talk about at the IRCAM if you want to be taken seriously as a composer.
Quote from: CRCulver on February 16, 2014, 07:27:55 AMWithin a decade of the opening of IRCAM, an institution that was supposedly a sign of Boulez's grip on French music, the majority of composers working there were largely opposed to Boulez.
People working at IRCAM opposed to Boulez? Are you joking? Who are you thinking about?
Pierre Boulez on John Cage
https://www.youtube.com/v/qKbPgUTgZXM
Pierre Boulez - message vis a vis receiving the 2009 Kyoto Prize
https://www.youtube.com/v/ul6ytPknslA
Quote from: Mr Bloom on February 16, 2014, 09:09:24 AM
People working at IRCAM opposed to Boulez? Are you joking? Who are you thinking about?
Early IRCAM participants like Dalbavie, Benjamin and Saariaho were always quick to emphasize in interviews that they wanted to pursue different directions than Boulez's (post-)serialist aesthetic. If anything, Boulez adopted more from that new generation than they adopted from him; the rapid success of the spectralist approach within IRCAM (with rare exceptions like Manoury) must have taken him by surprise.
Quote from: CRCulver on February 16, 2014, 09:27:01 AM
Early IRCAM participants like Dalbavie, Benjamin and Saariaho were always quick to emphasize in interviews that they wanted to pursue different directions than Boulez's (post-)serialist aesthetic.
IRCAM was created in 1969. Saariaho was there after 1982, Dalbavie after 1985, Benjamin after 1987. They were not early participants.
Anyway, they did pursue different directions, but they were not opposed to Boulez at all. It's obvious composers are not going to copy Boulez's music (even if some forgotten composers did that). It's more complex than that. It deals with philosophical, social and political matters more than strictly musical ones. It deals with the representation of the music, the image of it. The post-serialist tradition and the spectral tradition are linked, and since that time they have merged.
Quote from: Mr Bloom on February 16, 2014, 10:45:40 AM
IRCAM was created in 1969. Saariaho was there after 1982, Dalbavie after 1985, Benjamin after 1987. They were not early participants.
Anyway, they did pursue different directions, but they were not opposed to Boulez at all. It's obvious composers are not going to copy Boulez's music (even if some forgotten composers did that). It's more complex than that. It deals with philosophical, social and political matters more than strictly musical ones. It deals with the representation of the music, the image of it. The post-serialist tradition and the spectral tradition are linked, and since that time they have merged.
Being very much a novice in this area (but reasonably well-informed about the cultural histories of modernism and postmodernism in the
visual arts), I'm especially interested in hearing more about this bolded part. Would you (or anyone else) care to elaborate?
Quote from: Mr Bloom on February 16, 2014, 10:45:40 AM
IRCAM was created in 1969.
While the political initiative may date from that time, IRCAM did not open until 1977. The composers I mentioned were all active there within a decade from that.
QuoteAnyway, they did pursue different directions, but they were not opposed to Boulez at all.
That they pursued different directions is clear proof that Boulez's influence on French music did not simply perpetuate his own concerns. His role in administration has encouraged a diversity of styles. About the only thing that did
not flourish in France under his "watch" was Connesson-like neo-Romanticism, and it's unreasonable to expect any administrator to encourage
every style. After all, don't even the more broad-minded among us get frustrated when classical institutions start giving time and resources to, say, crossover or video game soundtracks?
Quote from: CRCulver on February 16, 2014, 11:00:47 AM
That they pursued different directions is clear proof that Boulez's influence on French music did not simply perpetuate his own concerns. His role in administration has encouraged a diversity of styles.
A diversity of styles, really ? Ircam has always defended the same range of aesthetics, they have not hidden that fact. Under Boulez's administration, French music has been polarised between "avant-garde" and "neo-tonality". Between the polarities, nothing could exist. But the tradition of French music before 1945 wasn't built on that polarity. Avant-garde was a german importation, mixed with a certain view of Debussy's music, modernised by Messiaen - which is totally what Boulez's music was about from the beginning. It's a make-believe, a construction. Spectralism belongs to that German/Debussy mix of avant-garde, and can't be considered an anomaly in that context. It's a logical evolution of the idea of what french music should sound like, and not what it is. These composers just put more Debussy than serialism in their music.
As a consequence, true successors of the french tradition were forgotten (cf. Landowski, who was one of the main adversary of Boulez), and nowadays, a french composer has only two choices : neo-romantism or german/Debussy avant-garde, which isn't an aesthetic as much as a generic style, a bunch of technics and ideas about music.
I've heard that "diversity of styles" argument. It's a fake view of the institution to justify itself, but it's a blatant lie, that can be proven if you take any "cursus" concert, or any concert of the now late Agora festival. IRCAM is an institution : its goal is not to evolve but to reproduce itself.
Quote from: Mr Bloom on February 16, 2014, 09:09:24 AM
The case of Xenakis is interesting, because in his case this is plain wrong : for example, IRCAM was supposed to be a collaboration between Boulez and Xenakis, but Xenakis left the projet very fast, sickened by the whole thing. He created CEMAMu as a result, but didn't get the public founding he needed - most of the state money for contemporary music went to Boulez's projects, and little was left for others (Boulez was great politician, something Xenakis wasn't). CEMAMu was a failure in Xenakis' eyes, and Xenakis did have many difficulties in his career because of the rivalry between him and Boulez - not necessarily from Boulez himself, but from people around him. At the end of his life, Xenakis was bitter and tired by the state of things he had to fight against in France.
As stupid as it sounds, Xenakis is still these days a name you shouldn't talk about at the IRCAM if you want to be taken seriously as a composer.
People working at IRCAM opposed to Boulez? Are you joking? Who are you thinking about?
Xenakis really is The French Composer combining Varese and Ravel. He's a Composer of colour: French. He feels French. Boulez- how is that really French Music? I mean, his early works, sure. The First Sonata for Piano is very French and colourful. The Flute Sonata. But the 'Livre pour Quatuor' is like Webern-cotton-candy, so dense and thorny the work is. And from there...
Poor Xenakis :'(
Quote from: James on February 17, 2014, 10:22:56 PM
Boulez's music sounds very French to me, perfectly fits in line with Debussy, Messiaen and bringing in other exotic & classical influences .. very colorful, refined, sensuous, decorative, subversive and following that rich harmonic tradition and bringing a fresh rhythmic vocabulary. And the later pieces get more beautiful. Xenakis's music is the opposite of this overall .. externally constructed .. rugged, crude, noisy, in-your-face and harsh.
Hear, hear! Your description of Boulez's soundworld appears to me very fitting,
James! I always get the impression that many listeners (perhaps taken aback by the composer's public persona of many years ago) don't realize how
beautiful much of his output is...
I cannot comment so much on Xenakis, a composer I have never warmed to (but your description does reflect a bit the impression he makes on me ;) ).
AAAAHHHHHm the acid... it buuurns it buuurns!!
I just listened to Derive 1. Sounded pretty French to me. Ornamental shavings Ravel would have discarded as he carved, but *French*.
I'm surprised at how often the notion of "Frenchness" seems to come up in this discussion. Perhaps there is similar concern over the "Americanness" of Carter or Feldman, or the "Germanness" of Stockhousen in their respective threads, but I certainly haven't noticed it to this extent. For those who have brought it up, could you perhaps discuss why it is important to you?
Much of a muchness?
Quote from: NorthNYMark on February 18, 2014, 11:21:33 AM
I'm surprised at how often the notion of "Frenchness" seems to come up in this discussion. Perhaps there is similar concern over the "Americanness" of Carter or Feldman, or the "Germanness" of Stockhousen in their respective threads, but I certainly haven't noticed it to this extent. For those who have brought it up, could you perhaps discuss why it is important to you?
I mentioned it but it has no importance for me, as Boulez as a composer matters to me not at all. But there is something about the sound nonetheless.
Quote from: NorthNYMark on February 18, 2014, 11:21:33 AM
I'm surprised at how often the notion of "Frenchness" seems to come up in this discussion. Perhaps there is similar concern over the "Americanness" of Carter or Feldman, or the "Germanness" of Stockhousen in their respective threads, but I certainly haven't noticed it to this extent. For those who have brought it up, could you perhaps discuss why it is important to you?
And, s'il vous plait, what is "Frenchness" in music?
Partially, at least for now, 'French' means 'colour', and on the basic level it's supposed to be different from the 'German' model which tends to be more 'serious', meaning, it's not so in to 'colour'.
Maybe a better way would be to simply compare Debussy and Brahms- THERE!, there's the difference you can see. Brahms writes in the traditional Germanic styles; Debussy seeks the whole-tone scale.
And we didn't even have to write a book!
btw- so, Boulez's 'Livre pour Quatuor' is a GERMANIC work by a FRENCH Composer... well, i can't think of a German Composer who acts French (off the top), hmm,... but, I'm glad you all understand and we can move on!! :laugh:
Quote from: snyprrr on February 19, 2014, 05:54:36 AM
Partially, at least for now, 'French' means 'colour', and on the basic level it's supposed to be different from the 'German' model which tends to be more 'serious', meaning, it's not so in to 'colour'.
Maybe a better way would be to simply compare Debussy and Brahms- THERE!, there's the difference you can see. Brahms writes in the traditional Germanic styles; Debussy seeks the whole-tone scale.
You're onto something. I don't think that
Brahms is at all "colorless," but I think of the French manner as a lightness and clarity of color, a delicacy, and a greater transparency of texture.
I think the French have shown an affinity for the "exotic" (Boulez being no exception, e.g. gamelan sounds). Debussy's whole tone scales and non-functional harmonies as a method of luxuriating in the sound for long-ish periods, Messiaen's interest in Indian rhythms to say nothing of his use of birdsong; Ravel's orchestral deployment of percussion (a mastery of orchestration seems to be something of a specialty for French composers) and then there is the entire spectral school, which is made up in the majority of French composers.
All of this adds up to a preoccupation with instrumental color and texture for its own sake.
Quote from: snyprrr on February 19, 2014, 05:54:36 AM
btw- so, Boulez's 'Livre pour Quatuor' is a GERMANIC work by a FRENCH Composer... well, i can't think of a German Composer who acts French (off the top), hmm,... but, I'm glad you all understand and we can move on!! :laugh:
Wagner and Bruckner....
that would also apply to
Sanantonio's formulation.
Boulez as the anti-Bruckner....hmm, that might actually work.
Le visage nuptial on Medici (Orchestre philharmonique de radio France, Pascal Rophé; 25 february 2014)
http://fr.medici.tv/#!/pascal-rophe-pierre-boulez-orchestre-philharmonique-de-radio-france (http://fr.medici.tv/#!/pascal-rophe-pierre-boulez-orchestre-philharmonique-de-radio-france)
Sorry to be a little bit off-topic, but does anyone have any idea why he insists on (mis)pronouncing his name as Boulezzz?
Quote from: EigenUser on February 27, 2014, 01:50:35 PM
Sorry to be a little bit off-topic, but does anyone have any idea why he insists on (mis)pronouncing his name as Boulezzz?
Pardon, how should it be pronounced if not like that?
Quote from: EigenUser on February 27, 2014, 01:50:35 PM
Sorry to be a little bit off-topic, but does anyone have any idea why he insists on (mis)pronouncing his name as Boulezzz?
Pronouncing such final letters is not uncommon with French names. Duras, Saint-Saens pronounce the s. Berlioz. For one thing, names can have different origins so can vary wildly. I believe Francaix pronounced the x, the town of Aix does.
Quote from: North Star on February 27, 2014, 01:57:40 PM
Pardon, how should it be pronounced if not like that?
In French, the
ez-sound is pronounced like
ay. So, the traditional pronunciation of his name would be
Boul-ay. Not that I have a problem with it, but I find it very intriguing especially because he seems very French.
Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 02:00:12 PM
Pronouncing such final letters is not uncommon with French names. Duras, Saint-Saens pronounce the s. Berlioz. For one thing, names can have different origins so can vary wildly. I believe Francaix pronounced the x, the town of Aix does.
I didn't know this. Thanks!
Quote from: EigenUser on February 27, 2014, 02:00:21 PM
In French, the ez-sound is pronounced like ay. So, the traditional pronunciation of his name would be Boul-ay. Not that I have a problem with it, but I find it very intriguing especially because he seems very French.
Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 02:00:12 PM
Pronouncing such final letters is not uncommon with French names. Duras, Saint-Saens pronounce the s. Berlioz. For one thing, names can have different origins so can vary wildly. I believe Francaix pronounced the x, the town of Aix does.
I thought you might mean this. :)
(now,
Mussorgsky's spelling and pronunciation, OTOH...)
I believe it's a regional variation, and the -ez is pronounced that way in many of the more southern parts of France, where his family was from.
Quote from: edward on February 27, 2014, 02:07:24 PM
I believe it's a regional variation, and the -ez is pronounced that way in many of the more southern parts of France, where his family was from.
Langue d'oc in southern France vs. Langue d'oïl in the north?
Quote from: EigenUser on February 27, 2014, 01:50:35 PM
Sorry to be a little bit off-topic, but does anyone have any idea why he insists on (mis)pronouncing his name as Boulezzz?
It's a matter or tradition and/or regional habits. The -ez is very common in the region of Auvergne were Boulez was born, for instance in the "Monts du Forez" and according to local inhabitants, some pronounce it é in the east and some ez in the west...
Many ending letters are not pronounced in modern french, but generally they have not been added for nothing, once upon a time it was pronounced or it comes from the latin form.
Personally I've never heard the X pronounced in Jean Françaix (and Ive ever listened too much to his music ;-)
The easy rule is: Boulez rimes with Fez... :) .
As for Francaix, I have read that the "x" should be pronounced, but then once in a video on the webpage of France's Institut National de l'Audiovisuel (http://www.ina.fr)--where there's a wealth of material from France's television--I heard it pronounced without the "x"...
Quote from: ritter on February 27, 2014, 10:56:25 PM
The easy rule is: Boulez rimes with Fez... :) .
As for Francaix, I have read that the "x" should be pronounced, but then once in a video on the webpage of France's Institut National de l'Audiovisuel (http://www.ina.fr)--where there's a wealth of material from France's television--I heard it pronounced without the "x"...
My advice is to not pronouce the X... if you do, people will hear Fran-sex...
Quote from: Joaquimhock on February 27, 2014, 11:00:17 PM
My advice is to not pronouce the X... if you do, people will hear Fran-sex...
:laugh: :laugh: Yeah, and regardless of the fact of whether one likes Françaix or not, "sexy" is
not a word that comes to mind... ;)
Back on topic, here, have a concert:
http://www.medici.tv/#!/pascal-rophe-pierre-boulez-orchestre-philharmonique-de-radio-france
Quote from: lescamil on February 27, 2014, 11:08:12 PM
Back on topic, here, have a concert:
http://www.medici.tv/#!/pascal-rophe-pierre-boulez-orchestre-philharmonique-de-radio-france
That concert looks very interesting...I've always been a fan of
Le Visage Nuptial, a really sensuous early work that is too seldom performed (and, AFAIK, there's only the Erato recording from the 80's available)...I would expect Aikin and Summers to be very good. :)
I just wanted to take a minute to comment on the presentation of this box set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ggs-Tf5AL.jpg)
This is an absolutely first-rate job from Deutsche Grammophon. I'm usually not crazy about many of their box sets as they seem to go the 'cheap' route, but this Boulez set is just beautiful. What a booklet! I've seen many thick booklets (esp. w/ opera boxes), but this one was simply beautifully laid out. Extremely well-done. It reminds me of their effort with Webern's Complete Edition minus the thinline jewel cases of course. :)
Now, I'll need to investigate the music.
Quote from: James on March 02, 2014, 09:28:07 AM
Didn't you express many times on this board before something to the effect that Boulez's music doesn't do anything for you? And now you've went and bought it all? What for?
Not that I have to justify myself to you, but, as I've stated many many times on GMG before, I like having a large selection of 20th Century music at my disposal at all times. Whether you or any one else sees value in this is not important to me. Plus, I bought it because I wanted it. I don't like everything Webern composed either, but I own it all. So there you have it.
It's the completionist's mentality. I have it, too. I probably have hundreds (literally) of CDs that are there just for the sake of having them for reference. I look at my collection as a library, and, should I ever need a reference, I can just go to it.
For the record, I also have that Boulez collection. It is possibly worth getting for the booklet and that's it, since pretty much all of the performances are available on older releases.
Quote from: James on March 02, 2014, 09:28:07 AM
Didn't you express many times on this board before something to the effect that Boulez's music doesn't do anything for you? And now you've went and bought it all? What for?
Some of us make up our minds
after we hear the music.
On the road last night, I was able to hear a good chunk of a radio show on Dayton's classical station (WDPG). The program deals with 20th/21st century music: imagine how amazed I was to hear e.g. Notations by Boulez played and discussed on the radio in America!
The program dealt mainly with Pierre Boulez as composer.
You can listen online (I assume): here is a playlist of past and future programs!
http://www.discoverclassical.org/relevant-tones.htm (http://www.discoverclassical.org/relevant-tones.htm)
Happy 89th Birthday, Maestro.
Pierre Boulez and Simon Rattle, May 10, 1989 (Los Angeles Philharmonic Archives)
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on March 26, 2014, 07:49:34 AM
Happy 89th Birthday, Maestro.
Pierre Boulez and Simon Rattle, May 10, 1989 (Los Angeles Philharmonic Archives)
--Bruce
oops, and here I was, Is he dead yet? lolz Yea, yea, congratulations on your life- record some more Xenakis! :laugh: or anything...
Quote from: snyprrr on March 26, 2014, 09:58:12 AM
oops, and here I was, Is he dead yet? lolz Yea, yea, congratulations on your life- record some more Xenakis! :laugh: or anything...
Dutilleux! 0:)
Quote from: Brewski on March 26, 2014, 07:49:34 AM
Happy 89th Birthday, Maestro.
Pierre Boulez and Simon Rattle, May 10, 1989 (Los Angeles Philharmonic Archives)
--Bruce
Has Simon Rattle always had that hair? He has in every picture I've seen, no matter how old.
Quote from: EigenUser on March 26, 2014, 10:22:11 AM
Has Simon Rattle always had that hair? He has in every picture I've seen, no matter how old.
Jewish??
Quote from: Brewski on March 26, 2014, 07:49:34 AM
Pierre Boulez and Simon Rattle, May 10, 1989 (Los Angeles Philharmonic Archives)
--Bruce
Great conductors, not so great hairstylists. 8)
Quote from: North Star on March 26, 2014, 12:35:18 PM
Great conductors, not so great hairstylists. 8)
Seems to be the rule. I wonder if there's some sort of mentality behind this or if it is just coincidence. I mean, have you seen Gergiev? Yikes! :o
By the way, I just heard "Derive I" and was thoroughly impressed, especially considering my general dislike of the compositions of Boulez! It sounded fresh and modern, but in a very French way. It didn't sound like total serialism at all. I was hoping that "Derive II" would be similar, but this is sadly not the case. It sounds like an agitated "Gruppen" :( (I only heard the beginning -- it's a very long piece). Any recommendations for works similar to "Derive I"? I figure that "Le Marteau sans Maitre" will come up, but I don't really like songs very much.
Quote from: EigenUser on March 26, 2014, 07:05:26 PM
By the way, I just heard "Derive I" and was thoroughly impressed, especially considering my general dislike of the compositions of Boulez! It sounded fresh and modern, but in a very French way. It didn't sound like total serialism at all.
Except for a couple of works in the 1950s (performances of which he does not encourage) Boulez has never written total serialism.
As for works you might enjoy, try
Répons. There is only one recording, on Deutsche Grammophon.
Quote from: EigenUser on March 26, 2014, 07:05:26 PM
Any recommendations for works similar to "Derive I"? I figure that "Le Marteau sans Maitre" will come up, but I don't really like songs very much.
I would suggest
Mémoriale. This is a hauntingly beautiful (and short ;) ) piece for solo flute and ensemble. If you like it, then you can move on to
"...explosante - fixe..." (in it's recorded version, essentially a flute concerto with live electronics,
Mémoriale being an arrangement of the section labelled "
Originel").
Also,
Messagesquisse for solo cello and 8 cellos can be of interest to you...
If I may suggest, do give
Dérive II a second chance. The more I listen to this piece (which I also had the luck of hearing live in concert once), the more I like it. I now tend to believe that it is one of Boulez's most accomplished compositions...
Aren't 'Memoriale' and 'Derive' those little 5 minute works? :P :laugh: Yes,...(titter)... they're wonderful! :'( :laugh:
Quote from: snyprrr on March 27, 2014, 06:34:20 AM
Aren't 'Memoriale' and 'Derive' those little 5 minute works? :P :laugh: Yes,...(titter)... they're wonderful! :'( :laugh:
Try saying that in the
Webern thread. $:)
Quote from: ritter on March 27, 2014, 02:54:37 AM
I would suggest Mémoriale. This is a hauntingly beautiful (and short ;) ) piece for solo flute and ensemble. If you like it, then you can move on to "...explosante - fixe..." (in it's recorded version, essentially a flute concerto with live electronics, Mémoriale being an arrangement of the section labelled "Originel").
Also, Messagesquisse for solo cello and 8 cellos can be of interest to you...
If I may suggest, do give Dérive II a second chance. The more I listen to this piece (which I also had the luck of hearing live in concert once), the more I like it. I now tend to believe that it is one of Boulez's most accomplished compositions...
Thanks! I will absolutely give "Derive II" another chance. I only heard the beginning and I gave up when it wasn't going where I wanted it to go ;D . It's odd that I've been taken by a work by Boulez before a work by Schoenberg/Berg/Webern (all of which I still struggle with now).
Quote from: EigenUser on March 27, 2014, 09:31:23 AM
Thanks! I will absolutely give "Derive II" another chance. I only heard the beginning and I gave up when it wasn't going where I wanted it to go ;D . It's odd that I've been taken by a work by Boulez before a work by Schoenberg/Berg/Webern (all of which I still struggle with now).
Not that odd. The bergs are often thick and creamy, very Tristan. Boulez has brighter lighter textures in the pieces I have sat through. I'll take him over Webern.
Concert last month at the Cité de la Musique in Paris by the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France conducted by Pascal Rophé; now available on medici.tv (http://www.medici.tv/#!/pascal-rophe-pierre-boulez-orchestre-philharmonique-de-radio-france).
Featured is Le Visage Nuptial.
Premiered in 1946, but reworked in 1989, Le Visage nuptial ("The Nuptial Face") is one of Pierre Boulez's most lyrical pieces. Written after a poem by René Char (excerpt from Fureur et Mystère), this secular cantata for soprano, contralto, women's choir and orchestra is a sensual work which evokes the colourful sonorities of Debussy. Divided in five movements, Le Visage nuptial is made up of contrasting musical parts bearing witness of the different influences that have marked Boulez's artistic path. Laura Aikin and Hilary Summers join forces with Pascal Rophé to perform Le Visage nuptial, a masterpiece wich, according to Dominique Jameux, "holds the 'aura' of works that have taken on mythic status".
The concert begins with French premières of Armonica by Jörg Widmann (with one of the greatest performers of glass harmonica, Christa Schoenfeldinger) and Change by Johannes Boris Borowski.
Quote from: Ken B on March 27, 2014, 12:41:26 PM
Not that odd. The bergs are often thick and creamy, very Tristan. Boulez has brighter lighter textures in the pieces I have sat through. I'll take him over Webern.
Yes, I think that you hit the nail on the head. I've been listening to some Boulez recently and I find much of it way more accessible for me than the 2nd Viennese School. In fact, a lot of it reminds me of Messiaen.
Quote from: EigenUser on March 29, 2014, 12:36:19 PM
Yes, I think that you hit the nail on the head. I've been listening to some Boulez recently and I find much of it way more accessible for me than the 2nd Viennese School. In fact, a lot of it reminds me of Messiaen.
Excellent! Yes,
Messiaen is certainly a large influence.
Quote from: EigenUser on March 29, 2014, 12:36:19 PM
Yes, I think that you hit the nail on the head. I've been listening to some Boulez recently and I find much of it way more accessible for me than the 2nd Viennese School. In fact, a lot of it reminds me of Messiaen.
I still don't see how anyone couldn't wrap their heads around Berg's
Violin Concerto or Schoenberg's
Five Pieces for Orchestra for example. I can understand something like Berg's
Chamber Concerto or Schoenberg's
Variations for Orchestra opposing some problems for listeners, but not the afore mentioned works. Don't give up and keep listening!
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2014, 05:14:12 PM
I still don't see how anyone couldn't wrap their heads around Berg's Violin Concerto or Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra for example. I can understand something like Berg's Chamber Concerto or Schoenberg's Variations for Orchestra opposing some problems for listeners, but not the afore mentioned works. Don't give up and keep listening!
Again, I think that Ken articulated it nicely -- it's very thick music (of course, I don't mean 'thick' in its insulting meaning, haha, but in describing textures). Take a work like "Verklarte Nacht", for instance. I love it, but I have trouble listening to the whole thing because at about 3/4 of the way through, I feel like I'm starting to have to force myself to eat a very fancy and very heavy meal. I'm not sure I can explain it any better, but that's how it makes me feel.
Now, about the Berg violin concerto: it, too, is very thick. However, the music is also hard to follow for me, which isn't true for "Verklarte Nacht". It's like I'm trying to eat a meal that is exquisite, but that I haven't acquired a taste for yet. And I'm full.
I've also found myself to be getting less and less from the later romantics, which is probably why I like Mendelssohn and (recently) Schumann. That being said, I won't give up! Even if I never truly appreciate the aforementioned works (which is unlikely), at least I recognize them as important.
Quote from: EigenUser on March 30, 2014, 06:23:19 AM
Again, I think that Ken articulated it nicely -- it's very thick music (of course, I don't mean 'thick' in its insulting meaning, haha, but in describing textures). Take a work like "Verklarte Nacht", for instance. I love it, but I have trouble listening to the whole thing because at about 3/4 of the way through, I feel like I'm starting to have to force myself to eat a very fancy and very heavy meal. I'm not sure I can explain it any better, but that's how it makes me feel.
Now, about the Berg violin concerto: it, too, is very thick. However, the music is also hard to follow for me, which isn't true for "Verklarte Nacht". It's like I'm trying to eat a meal that is exquisite, but that I haven't acquired a taste for yet. And I'm full.
I've also found myself to be getting less and less from the later romantics, which is probably why I like Mendelssohn and (recently) Schumann. That being said, I won't give up! Even if I never truly appreciate the aforementioned works (which is unlikely), at least I recognize them as important.
If listening becomes a 'chore' then you should stop listening to whatever it is you're listening to and find something else. In time, you will come to appreciate the
Second Viennese School. And if you never do, at least you can say you honestly tried. Let me say that one reason you could be having trouble following Berg's
Violin Concerto is because you're not familiar with the musical language.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 30, 2014, 06:40:25 AM
If listening becomes a 'chore' then you should stop listening to whatever it is you're listening to and find something else.
I wouldn't necessarily call my listening to "Verklarte Nacht" a chore. I love the piece! It's just very thick, harmonically. Again, it's like I'm trying to force myself to finish eating a delicious meal when I'm already full. Ever since someone here compared Messiaen's "Turangalila-Symphonie" to eating ice cream from the carton (which I find to be true and hilarious), I took the food-analogies and ran :D .
Sometimes listening is a chore for me, though. For example, I will sometimes listen to Stockhausen because I think that it is historically important music, but it does nothing for me. Same with Boulez, but I ended up really liking "Derive" in the process, so it was a gain. I've also been listening to some Haydn symphonies recently. Much of it has flew past me and I've been indifferent, but I have definitely been taken by 88, 89, and 90. Damn 88 is still stuck in my head, three days later ::) .
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 30, 2014, 06:40:25 AM
In time, you will come to appreciate the Second Viennese School. And if you never do, at least you can say you honestly tried. Let me say that one reason you could be having trouble following Berg's Violin Concerto is because you're not familiar with the musical language.
I don't doubt this at all. :)
Quote from: EigenUser on March 30, 2014, 06:59:07 AM
I wouldn't necessarily call my listening to "Verklarte Nacht" a chore. I love the piece! It's just very thick, harmonically. Again, it's like I'm trying to force myself to finish eating a delicious meal when I'm already full. Ever since someone here compared Messiaen's "Turangalila-Symphonie" to eating ice cream from the carton (which I find to be true and hilarious), I took the food-analogies and ran :D .
Sometimes listening is a chore for me, though. For example, I will sometimes listen to Stockhausen because I think that it is historically important music, but it does nothing for me. Same with Boulez, but I ended up really liking "Derive" in the process, so it was a gain. I've also been listening to some Haydn symphonies recently. Much of it has flew past me and I've been indifferent, but I have definitely been taken by 88, 89, and 90. Damn 88 is still stuck in my head, three days later ::) .
Good to hear you enjoy
Verklarte Nacht. It is a great work and I've always enjoyed it, but I don't listen to it very often as I would rather listen to something like
Five Pieces for Orchestra, the
Chamber Symphonies, the concertante works, among others.
I also don't listen to any music that doesn't give me pleasure of some kind. Otherwise, what's the point of listening to music? I don't really care what composer is 'historically important'. What matters to me is I'm enjoying what I'm hearing. That's it. Nothing else.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 30, 2014, 07:43:10 AM
Good to hear you enjoy Verklarte Nacht. It is a great work and I've always enjoyed it, but I don't listen to it very often as I would rather listen to something like Five Pieces for Orchestra, the Chamber Symphonies, the concertante works, among others.
I also don't listen to any music that doesn't give me pleasure of some kind. Otherwise, what's the point of listening to music? I don't really care what composer is 'historically important'. What matters to me is I'm enjoying what I'm hearing. That's it. Nothing else.
My victory over MI. :laugh: ;)
I have just received confirmation form amazon here in Europe that this recent book has shipped, and should be delivered to me in a couple of days :) :
[asin]1107687233[/asin]
From the back cover:
"While acknowledging that Pierre Boulez is not a philosopher, and that he is wary of the potential misuse of philosophy with regard to music, this study investigates a series of philosophically charged terms and concepts which he uses in discussion of his music. Campbell examines significant encounters which link Boulez to the work of a number of important philosophers and thinkers, including Adorno, Lévi-Strauss, Eco and Deleuze. Relating Boulez's music and ideas to broader currents of thought, the book illuminates a number of affinities linking music and philosophy, and also literature and visual art. These connections facilitate enhanced understanding of post-war modernist music and Boulez's distinctive approach to composition. Drawing on a wide range of previously unpublished documentary sources and providing musical analysis of a number of key scores, the book traces the changing musical, philosophical and intellectual currents which inform Boulez's work."
Let's see if it offers any interesting insights...
I AM sorry- but EVERY time I see this Thread bumped, it's, "Did he die today?" What other Boulez news can there be???
Thinking about composing Déploration sur la mort de Boulez . . . .
Quote from: snyprrr on March 31, 2014, 07:22:26 AM
I AM sorry- but EVERY time I see this Thread bumped, it's, "Did he die today?" What other Boulez news can there be???
Oh my god, that's horrible! >:( ...
...But, I laughed. 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on March 31, 2014, 07:30:58 AM
Thinking about composing Déploration sur la mort de Boulez . . . .
A neo-classical piece built on a theme from Honegger would be my approach.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 31, 2014, 07:22:26 AM
I AM sorry- but EVERY time I see this Thread bumped, it's, "Did he die today?" What other Boulez news can there be???
You are not the only one...
Quote from: karlhenning on March 31, 2014, 07:30:58 AM
Thinking about composing Déploration sur la mort de Boulez . . . .
I suppose you could use a similar procedure to Boulez's use of the SACHER chord in recent years....
Random fun fact: If you take the alphabetical positions of B-O-U-L-E-Z and map them onto a twelve-note scale, the resulting short note row is diatonic and even contains a dominant seventh chord:
(eg: Bb-B natural-F-Ab-Db-Bb)
Hmm...
Schoenberg's name has four repeated notes in it, and starts and ends on the same pitch. No wonder he never tried to subject it to serial transformations.
(D#-B-E-B-C#-A#-A#-C#-D-D#)
Ravel's Minuet on the name of Haydn could have been written on a motive that went more like E-A-A-C-Bb. I am not totally sure how he came up with the one he did use, actually.
Malayalam is a piece by Scelsi.
He's selling his house in Provence. If you like "concrete" musi... euh Architecture... ;-)
http://www.valeursactuelles.com/guide-immobilier-maison-pierre-boulez-provence
Quote from: Joaquimhock on March 31, 2014, 10:29:37 PM
He's selling his house in Provence. If you like "concrete" musi... euh Architecture... ;-)
http://www.valeursactuelles.com/guide-immobilier-maison-pierre-boulez-provence
I love modern architecture, but I'm sorry -- that's not modern. That's an
atrocity.
It looks like a Soviet-era USSR
attempt at modernism.
I do still like "Derive I", though. :D And, of course, his conducting.
Quote from: EigenUser on April 01, 2014, 05:41:12 AM
I love modern architecture, but I'm sorry -- that's not modern. That's an atrocity.
It looks like a Soviet-era USSR attempt at modernism.
Amen! 0:) That is just double-bug ugly!
Maybe it is nice inside, but...
Quote from: Joaquimhock on March 31, 2014, 10:29:37 PM
He's selling his house in Provence. If you like "concrete" musi... euh Architecture... ;-)
http://www.valeursactuelles.com/guide-immobilier-maison-pierre-boulez-provence
I'd rather have this house of his than that prime example of modernist architecture at its worst.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LzMWjug4L.jpg)
Quote from: edward on March 31, 2014, 05:59:07 PM
I suppose you could use a similar procedure to Boulez's use of the SACHER chord in recent years....
Random fun fact: If you take the alphabetical positions of B-O-U-L-E-Z and map them onto a twelve-note scale, the resulting short note row is diatonic and even contains a dominant seventh chord:
(eg: Bb-B natural-F-Ab-Db-Bb)
So THAT's why he's so angry, haha!!
Quote from: Cato on April 01, 2014, 05:56:26 AM
Amen! 0:) That is just double-bug ugly!
Maybe it is nice inside, but...
The bathromm is not bad...
http://www.emilegarcin.fr/vente/Maison-darchitecte-Alpes-de-Haute-Provence-/FD66BE33-06E6-47D1-B992-0F897C9E8BFA/MEN-6037-SA.html
The program of the Festtage in Berlin for 2015 (March and April) has just been announced (here: http://staatsoper-berlin.de/de_DE/festtage-programm-2014-2015).
Four concerts are billed Hommage à Pierre Boulez. Barenboim conducts the Vienna Philharmonic in the Livre pour cordes and a piece labeled "Originel" (which I presume is the "Originel" from " ...explosante-fixe... ", i.e. Mémoriale). Another concert has pianist Michael Wendeberg playing the three Piano sonatas, Incises and the Notations. The West-Eastern Divan will do Dérive II. Finally, a concert with the Staatskapelle has Barenboim again conducting Le Visage nuptial, the Notations I - IV and, intriguingly, a Notation VI (the orchestral version of which is unknown until now). Or can it be a typo, and it's actually the Notation VII ?
If you haven't heard it yet, I'd recommend hearing this 1958 radio broadcast (https://archive.org/details/C_1958_03_XX) where Boulez explains his serialist aesthetic of the time. It's remarkable how far Boulez's English has come since then, as in later decades he was able to sound suave and charming in English, but here he can hardly get his point across.
Does anyone know what the tone row for "Derive I" is? Does it have one? I read that it does, but I can't seem to find it and it doesn't really sound like it has one. Just a lot of trills. Even a far-east folk-like theme in the last minute or two, very briefly. But no tone row?
amw, I suspect you have some idea... ;)
Quote from: EigenUser on April 30, 2014, 02:23:33 PM
Does anyone know what the tone row for "Derive I" is? Does it have one? I read that it does, but I can't seem to find it and it doesn't really sound like it has one. Just a lot of trills. Even a far-east folk-like theme in the last minute or two, very briefly. But no tone row?
amw, I suspect you have some idea... ;)
I believe it is all the notes of the harmonic scale. I don't recall the exact order though.
>:D
Quote from: EigenUser on April 30, 2014, 02:23:33 PM
Does anyone know what the tone row for "Derive I" is? Does it have one? I read that it does, but I can't seem to find it and it doesn't really sound like it has one. Just a lot of trills. Even a far-east folk-like theme in the last minute or two, very briefly. But no tone row?
amw, I suspect you have some idea... ;)
It's the six-note Sacher series (Eb-A-C-B-E-D). The trills are a result of the contrast between main notes and grace notes, ultimately related to Boulez's idea of striated and smooth time (which he described as early as in his
Penser la musique aujourd'hui) and the form scheme of this work.
Quote from: petrarch on April 30, 2014, 05:42:53 PM
It's the six-note Sacher series (Eb-A-C-B-E-D). The trills are a result of the contrast between main notes and grace notes, ultimately related to Boulez's idea of striated and smooth time (which he described as early as in his Penser la musique aujourd'hui) and the form scheme of this work.
Thank you so much!
Interesting -- it isn't a
12-time row. I'll have to look at what he does with this. My first thought would be to make a "photo-negative" and play the missing six notes in a separate series.
Quote from: petrarch on April 30, 2014, 05:42:53 PM
It's the six-note Sacher series (Eb-A-C-B-E-D). The trills are a result of the contrast between main notes and grace notes, ultimately related to Boulez's idea of striated and smooth time (which he described as early as in his Penser la musique aujourd'hui) and the form scheme of this work.
What is the relation to Paul Sacher of the (012457) hexachord? it does not seem to have any special features
Quote from: EigenUser on April 30, 2014, 02:23:33 PM
amw, I suspect you have some idea... ;)
I never had patience for all those number games, actually. My ears glaze over as soon as I hear phrases like "pitch class" and "combinatoriality" and "hexachord". And I know ears can't actually glaze over, but shutup.
Quote from: amw on April 30, 2014, 06:32:58 PM
I never had patience for all those number games, actually. My ears glaze over as soon as I hear phrases like "pitch class" and "combinatoriality" and "hexachord". And I know ears can't actually glaze over, but shutup.
Oh, I have no formal music theory training. Those big words you threw at me just all make me think of the same thing -- Babbitt. I wouldn't have understood much beyond the simple 12 (or, I guess 6) note row and its usual three transformations.
Quote from: EigenUser on April 30, 2014, 06:37:52 PM
Oh, I have no formal music theory training. Those big words you threw at me just all make me think of the same thing -- Babbitt.
which actually shouldn't be surprising as I'm pretty sure he coined all three... hmm.
I do find some of Babbitt's music enjoyable but I would rather stab myself in the face than read his theory texts.
Quote
I wouldn't have understood much beyond the simple 12 (or, I guess 6) note row and its usual three transformations.
Basically. There's not even any reason a note row has to have 12 notes, or that they all be different (Stravinsky's Cantata uses a 9 note row that contains only Cs, Ds, Es and a C#—I know this because he actually pointed it out with brackets in the published score).
Quote from: amw on April 30, 2014, 06:45:32 PM
which actually shouldn't be surprising as I'm pretty sure he coined all three... hmm.
I do find some of Babbitt's music enjoyable but I would rather stab myself in the face than read his theory texts.Basically. There's not even any reason a note row has to have 12 notes, or that they all be different (Stravinsky's Cantata uses a 9 note row that contains only Cs, Ds, Es and a C#—I know this because he actually pointed it out with brackets in the published score).
The only Babbitt that I remotely liked was "All Set" for jazz band. Are his theory textbooks boring?
Quote from: EigenUser on April 30, 2014, 06:37:52 PM
Oh, I have no formal music theory training. Those big words you threw at me just all make me think of the same thing -- Babbitt. I wouldn't have understood much beyond the simple 12 (or, I guess 6) note row and its usual three transformations.
Those words are nothing more than descriptions of how most serial composers use the series as the underlying raw data for the work much like a tonal composer will not use the entire major or minor scale for his melodies, but segment it into motives and smaller phrases. A hexachord is just a word to describe a six note segment; trichord is a three note segment, and so on. Pitch class is something unique to serial music. And it denotes the idea that a particular note in the series represents not one specific iteration (register or octave) but is one of the "class" of "pitch C" for example. Combinatorial is a term Babbitt took from set theory, and essentially means that the last six notes of a series mirror (in some form) the first six but do not repeat any of the pitches. Webern liked to utilize this in his rows. The advantage of combinatorial series is that the first half of the "O" series can be combined with the last half of one of the others, e.g. the last half of its inversion at one of the transpositions. This allows a composer to generate many variations of his original series, but all being related to each other.
Boulez was composer who wished to hide his process and it is almost impossible to find the original series from merely looking at the score. It is possible and analyses have been done (most famously by Ligeti for
Structures 1a, and someone else did a analysis of
Marteau Sans Maitre) - but that is not the point, really.
Just listen to the music and don't even think of trying to hear the "series".
Quote from: EigenUser on April 30, 2014, 06:50:30 PMAre his theory textbooks boring?
Multiply those three words by 50,000 or so... actually that will suffice also to tell you about pretty much every other book on serial techniques. Particularly the Americans who seemed obsessed with turning it into a branch of the hard sciences for a while.
Quote from: sanantonio on April 30, 2014, 06:52:13 PM
Just listen to the music and don't even think of trying to hear the "series".
This is my viewpoint also.
Quote from: sanantonio on April 30, 2014, 06:52:13 PM
Those words are nothing more than descriptions of how most serial composers use the series as the underlying raw data for the work much like a tonal composer will not use the entire major or minor scale for his melodies, but segment it into motives and smaller phrases. A hexachord is just a word to describe a six note segment; trichord is a three note segment, and so on. Pitch class is something unique to serial music. And it denotes the idea that a particular note in the series represents not one specific iteration (register or octave) but is one of the "class" of "pitch C" for example. Combinatorial is a term Babbitt took from set theory, and essentially means that the last six notes of a series mirror (in some form) the first six but do not repeat any of the pitches. Webern liked to utilize this in his rows.
Boulez was composer who wished to hide his process and it is almost impossible to find the original series from merely looking at the score. It is possible and analyses have been done (most famously by Ligeti for Structures 1a, and someone else did a analysis of Marteau Sans Maitre) - but that is not the point, really.
Just listen to the music and don't even think of trying to hear the "series".
Nice explanation, thanks!
"Structures 1a", I admit, was the piece that really turned me off serialism. Recently I discovered "Derive", though, and have been trying to find more things like it (I didn't like "Derive II", but I need to hear it again).
Does anyone know if there's a place online where I can read "Sonate, que me veux-tu?"? I have the LP which Rosen made of the third sonata, transferred to FLAC. I'll upload it to symphonyshare if anyone expresses an interest. I wonder what are people's experiences with the this music, whether people have heard any recordings which are particularly satisfying.
Boulez recorded it in 1958. Is it available anywhere?
Quote from: EigenUser on April 30, 2014, 05:47:03 PM
Thank you so much!
Interesting -- it isn't a 12-time row. I'll have to look at what he does with this. My first thought would be to make a "photo-negative" and play the missing six notes in a separate series.
There are six six-note series, each built up by rotating the intervals while always starting with Eb.
Strict twelve-tone rows have been
passé for quite a long while :).
Quote from: bwv 1080 on April 30, 2014, 06:01:18 PM
What is the relation to Paul Sacher of the (012457) hexachord? it does not seem to have any special features
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Boulez_-_Messagesquisse%2C_Sacher_hexachord.png)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacher_hexachord
Quote from: petrarch on May 01, 2014, 05:38:00 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Boulez_-_Messagesquisse%2C_Sacher_hexachord.png)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacher_hexachord
Cool, had not heard of it
Quote from: Mandryka on May 01, 2014, 09:19:19 AM
Does anyone know if there's a place online where I can read "Sonate, que me veux-tu?"? I have the LP which Rosen made of the third sonata, transferred to FLAC. I'll upload it to symphonyshare if anyone expresses an interest. I wonder what are people's experiences with the this music, whether people have heard any recordings which are particularly satisfying.
Boulez recorded it in 1958. Is it available anywhere?
Concerning
Sonate, que me veux-tu? you'll find excerpts (in English) here: http://www.themodernword.com/joyce/music/boulez_sonata.html (scroll down a bit, and you'll get to it)... I only have the complete text in book form in an old Spanish translation of
Points de repère (which I can scan, if that's of any use to you)...
I didn't know Boulez had recorded his
Third Sonata in 1958, and actually don't recall such a recording listed in any discography (old or new) of his music. I know he did perform it: Antoine Goléa, in his
Rencontres avec Pierre Boulez, mentions a performance in Berlin in 1957 which leads him to say that "everyone present was unanimous about Boulez's extraordinary pianism, his stunning virtuosity", etc., etc., and to conclude that Boulez is (or was--the book is from 1958) "the greatest pianist-composer since Bartok" ??? (boy, was this Goléa prone to exaggeration!--and Boulez's
conducting career hadn't even really taken off at the time :D ).
The only recorded performance of Boulez as a pianist that I know is that of the world premiere of
Structures II from Donaueschingen (from 1961, with Yvonne Loriod).
If you find recordings of Boulez on the piano (particularly that elusive
Third Sonata 8) ) please do let me know,
Mandryka! ;) And it's about time they issue the Rosen / Boulez disc on CD (ArkivMusic, are you there? :D ).
Regards,
Quote from: ritter on May 02, 2014, 11:00:18 AM
Concerning Sonate, que me veux-tu? you'll find excerpts (in English) here: http://www.themodernword.com/joyce/music/boulez_sonata.html (scroll down a bit, and you'll get to it)... I only have the complete text in book form in an old Spanish translation of Points de repère (which I can scan, if that's of any use to you)...
I didn't know Boulez had recorded his Third Sonata in 1958, and actually don't recall such a recording listed in any discography (old or new) of his music. I know he did perform it: Antoine Goléa, in his Rencontres avec Pierre Boulez, mentions a performance in Berlin in 1957 which leads him to say that "everyone present was unanimous about Boulez's extraordinary pianism, his stunning virtuosity", etc., etc., and to conclude that Boulez is (or was--the book is from 1958) "the greatest pianist-composer since Bartok" ??? (boy, was this Goléa prone to exaggeration!--and Boulez's conducting career hadn't even really taken off at the time :D ).
The only recorded performance of Boulez as a pianist that I know is that of the world premiere of Structures II from Donaueschingen (from 1961, with Yvonne Loriod).
If you find recordings of Boulez on the piano (particularly that elusive Third Sonata 8) ) please do let me know, Mandryka! ;) And it's about time they issue the Rosen / Boulez disc on CD (ArkivMusic, are you there? :D ).
Regards,
This paper by Peter O'Hagen mentions Boulez's 1958 recording
http://tinyurl.com/meyl3y4
I may email him to see if he can send me the recording.
Thanks for the link to the translation of "Sonate que me veux-tu?", which I find really intersting. I did not know he was aware of Ulysses, I did not know about his ideas about meaning. I appreciate your offer to scan the spanish translation - but I don't speak spanish! I may well stump up for a copy in French.
It's an atmospheric piece of music, at least when Idil Biret plays it ;)
Quote from: Mandryka on May 02, 2014, 08:30:09 PM
I may well stump up for a copy in French.
FWIW, it's also available in this english translation, which I got at Patelson's for $5 :):
[asin]0674643763[/asin]
Although for Boulez's own articles, I prefer to read in the original.
I'm embarrassed to say I have that book, so I'm sorry for wasting your time.
I've just posted the Rosen recording on symphonyshare. It's my favourite performance after Biret.
I'm hearing Pierre-Laurent Aimard play Boulez's complete piano works in Berkeley on 3/12/2015--should be intense, to say the least! (He's joined by Tamara Stefanovich for "Structures, Book 2, for Two Pianos, Four Hands.")
Quote from: Mandryka on May 03, 2014, 09:42:58 AM
I'm embarrassed to say I have that book, so I'm sorry for wasting your time.
I've just posted the Rosen recording on symphonyshare. It's my favourite performance after Biret.
The Rosen recording is fantastic, I agree! I was just listening to the Third Sonata. Such a brilliant work. Aces!
My latest Boulez discovery is the collection of essays on Pli selon pli, published by Contrechamps (in French) Excellent for anyone who's interested in the text/music relationship, Boulez's ideas about Mallarmé.
Quote from: James on July 03, 2014, 08:24:03 AM
Activity surrounding Boulez seems awfully quiet this year. Anyone read what he's up to? I haven't seen much. :(
mmm... I've already got my rant filled post at the ready for whenever TheBigDay arrives. :( i've been listening to Babbitt to soften the blow.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 03, 2014, 09:39:02 AM
My latest Boulez discovery is the collection of essays on Pli selon pli, published by Contrechamps (in French) Excellent for anyone who's interested in the text/music relationship, Boulez's ideas about Mallarmé.
Thanks for the tip,
Mandryka :). Is the book it
veeeery technical in style, or is it approachable for a broad(er) audience?
Regards,
Quote from: James on July 03, 2014, 08:24:03 AM
Activity surrounding Boulez seems awfully quiet this year. Anyone read what he's up to? I haven't seen much. :(
I hope he's doing alright. I'm growing to like him as a composer. I certainly like him more than I did six months ago. Those "Notations" for orchestra are phenomenal, as is "Repons" and "Derive I".
That last piece from "Notations"! What a thrilling ride! ... and people say Boulez is cold and calculating (i.e. me six months ago -- god I was so stupid ;D).
Quote from: ritter on July 03, 2014, 10:49:35 AM
Thanks for the tip, Mandryka :). Is the book it veeeery technical in style, or is it approachable for a broad(er) audience?
Regards,
There's hardly any musical notation in the book, it's not about formal analysis of the music. It's about Boulez's intentions and his understanding of Mallarme.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/microtonaldave/tumblr_n7e044UsjH1t06hqzo1_1280_zpsa35f5580.jpg)
Quote from: James on July 03, 2014, 06:21:37 PM
And one of the aspects that I love about Boulez's art and in fact most, all of the composers I hold dear is it's intellectual ferocity.
Intellectual ferocity is like wet consideration; the adjective fails to modify, or have aught to do with, the noun. Boulez is an intellectual, which is neither good nor bad, but just his character; and questions of good or bad are determined by other criteria. Where he has been ferocious, please, let us not unctuously rationalize it as a virtue by lauding it as a pursuit of the intellect.
cash.
Quote from: James on July 03, 2014, 06:21:37 PM
...intellectual ferocity.
That phrase could just as easily apply to Adolf Hitler! :o
Quote from: James on July 04, 2014, 02:05:14 PM
Hahaha .. they all seem to be extremely happy in his presence! Wonder what's in the briefcase?
Why, the score to "Repons", of course!
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/microtonaldave/1661190_10202851431419913_8250212138348961249_n_zps8fdd9175.jpg)
Quote from: 7/4 on July 05, 2014, 12:37:05 PM
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/microtonaldave/1661190_10202851431419913_8250212138348961249_n_zps8fdd9175.jpg)
Haha! Mahler/Berg hammer!
Quote from: James on July 05, 2014, 01:58:50 PM
The Master has a hammer. 8)
Oh, I didn't even think of that! So I guess you could say that
the hammer has found its master. ;D
Quote from: jochanaan on July 04, 2014, 02:25:32 PM
That phrase could just as easily apply to Adolf Hitler! :o
JS Bach, apotheosis of ferocity?
Dowland, Flow my ferocious tears?
L'après-midi d'une férocité
Quote from: karlhenning on July 05, 2014, 05:48:48 PM
L'après-midi d'une férocité
Das Heftigetemperierte Klavier
Quote from: Greg on July 05, 2014, 07:13:56 PM
Actually, it's full of dildos.
Are you sure? I only see one.
If anyone remembers back to a few years ago when DG let people ask Boulez questions online, they might recall that it's actually Foucault's hammer....
Quote from: James on July 06, 2014, 07:03:11 AM
Taka Kigawa, piano
Performing Pierre Boulez's complete solo piano music
Le Poisson Rouge
158 Bleecker Street, New York City, New York, 10012, United States
On Monday 25 August 2014 at 18:30
sweet, probably expensive.
Quote from: 7/4 on July 06, 2014, 10:31:17 AM
sweet, probably expensive.
Not that expensive according to: https://www.ticketprophet.com/events/9713/orders/new
Quote from: 7/4 on July 06, 2014, 10:31:17 AM
sweet, probably expensive.
How much do they pay?
Quote from: James on July 04, 2014, 03:32:44 PM
Love that one. Would like to hear it performed live one day.
I attended the Carnegie Hall performance some years ago. It works much better live than on CD, which is not surprising, as the various strands and especially those coming from the performers located around the audience are much clearer. That said,
Le Marteau, which I also saw live a number of times there truly is the
chef d'oeuvre.
Quote from: petrarch on July 06, 2014, 01:46:12 PM
I attended the Carnegie Hall performance some years ago. It works much better live than on CD, which is not surprising, as the various strands and especially those coming from the performers located around the audience are much clearer. That said, Le Marteau, which I also saw live a number of times there truly is the chef d'oeuvre.
Never been lucky enough to see
Repons live, but I've been surprised by the difference between my reaction to
Pli selon pli live (blown away by it--twice) and on CD both before and after (mostly meh and in accordance with Stravinsky's "pretty monotonous and monotonously pretty").
Quote from: edward on July 06, 2014, 11:03:57 AM
Not that expensive according to: https://www.ticketprophet.com/events/9713/orders/new
$25 seems quite reasonable.
Quote from: edward on July 06, 2014, 03:39:13 PM
Never been lucky enough to see Repons live, but I've been surprised by the difference between my reaction to Pli selon pli live (blown away by it--twice) and on CD both before and after (mostly meh and in accordance with Stravinsky's "pretty monotonous and monotonously pretty").
If it happened twice, it can be no fluke :)
I've not heard it live, and the piece has done a pendulum swing with me. On last hearing, though, I thought fairly well of it.
Very interesting interview by Michele Dall'Ongaro, from December 2012:
https://www.youtube.com/v/RqkM5o648zI
Thanks, I've listened to about half of it. It made me wonder whether Cage had ever said anything about Boulez's later music. Of course, Cage was dead when Boulez gave that interview, so that makes a difference.
I was interested to hear about how modern music was infused with trans-national, European, values, partly because I've been reading some things Furtwangler wrote about Brahms, and that comes from the opposite point of view (Brahms good because he captures the essence of German Volk culture.) Also that brief mention of the importance of radio stations for giving people the chance to hear new music,mI wonder what he was thinking of. Radio 3 (The Third Programme I think it was called) and France Musique - or were there pirate classical music radio stations?
Anyway for the links between music, freedom, Nazis, fall of communism - it's been interesting to hear him.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 03, 2014, 08:07:45 AM
Thanks, I've listened to about half of it. It made me wonder whether Cage had ever said anything about Boulez's later music. Of course, Cage was dead when Boulez gave that interview, so that makes a difference.
I was interested to hear about how modern music was infused with trans-national, European, values, partly because I've been reading some things Furtwangler wrote about Brahms, and that comes from the opposite point of view (Brahms good because he captures the essence of German Volk culture.) Also that brief mention of the importance of radio stations for giving people the chance to hear new music,mI wonder what he was thinking of. Radio 3 (The Third Programme I think it was called) and France Musique - or were there pirate classical music radio stations?
Anyway for the links between music, freedom, Nazis, fall of communism - it's been interesting to hear him.
There was an interview where he discussed Cage and I found it interesting that Boulez thought highly of him, at least for a time. Cage even let him stay in his NYC apartment while Boulez was there! They did have a turbulent friendship later, but who
didn't have a turbulent relationship with Boulez :D?
That has kept me from totally dismissing Cage's music. Perhaps there is much there and maybe I'll find it later on.
Quote from: EigenUser on August 03, 2014, 10:07:16 AM
but who didn't have a turbulent relationship with Boulez :D?
The ones he spat on from the get-go.
As for Cage, get Berman's prepared piano discs on Naxos. Really.
Quote from: EigenUser on August 03, 2014, 10:07:16 AM
There was an interview where he discussed Cage and I found it interesting that Boulez thought highly of him, at least for a time. Cage even let him stay in his NYC apartment while Boulez was there! They did have a turbulent friendship later, but who didn't have a turbulent relationship with Boulez :D?
That has kept me from totally dismissing Cage's music. Perhaps there is much there and maybe I'll find it later on.
Have you tried
Sonatas & Interludes ?
E: I notice Ken already recommended it. :)
Quote from: EigenUser on August 03, 2014, 10:07:16 AM
There was an interview where he discussed Cage and I found it interesting that Boulez thought highly of him, at least for a time. Cage even let him stay in his NYC apartment while Boulez was there!
They were good friends and enthusiastically helped one another in getting their music known across the Atlantic. Cage also visited Boulez in Paris and circulated among Boulez's close friends.
The 'fall out' (if you can call it that) occurs when their view of music and art diverges. Arguably, Cage explored the very foundations of the perception of art and the boundary between art and life, and it became too esoteric for Boulez's vision of precision and critical thought.
Quote from: petrarch on August 03, 2014, 10:35:09 AM
They were good friends and enthusiastically helped one another in getting their music known across the Atlantic. Cage also visited Boulez in Paris and circulated among Boulez's close friends.
The 'fall out' (if you can call it that) occurs when their view of music and art diverges. Arguably, Cage explored the very foundations of the perception of art and the boundary between art and life, and it became too esoteric for Boulez's vision of precision and critical thought.
Or a rival.
Quote from: Ken B on August 03, 2014, 11:15:49 AM
Or a rival.
Nah. Boulez didn't feel that way towards Stockhausen, with whom there was much more overlap, so he wouldn't feel in any way threatened by Cage.
Quote from: petrarch on August 03, 2014, 11:31:38 AM
Nah. Boulez didn't feel that way towards Stockhausen, with whom there was much more overlap, so he wouldn't feel in any way threatened by Cage.
Not much of a rival actually when you look at influence or $ either.
Cage did tend to quarrel with people, because he was pretty blunt.
Kudos to me that I didn't automatically think... you know! ::)
Looks like this "all-Boulez, only-Boulez" recital by Mr. Kigawa was very special indeed! :) Pity New York is so far away from Madrid... :(
I notice (with great pleasure) that , more and more, reviews of Pierre Boulez's music move away from (only) using terms such as "cerebral", "experimental" and "mathematical", to include expressions such "gentleness", "sensual", "delicate", "colorful" and "solemn beauty". Because, for me at least, this is profoundly beautiful music....
Thanks for the reviews, James!
Regards,
Quote from: James on September 06, 2014, 06:04:48 AM
I have been longing for a new Boulez piece .. it's been too long. :(
I'm hoping with his 90th birthday, something new will be premiered. Just one last piece. (fingers crossed)
Well, Boulez has been working on some additional orchestrations of the
Douze Notations, and in the booklet of the "Complete Works - Work in Progress" box on DG issued last year, Claude Samuel mentioned that some 11 minutes of
Dérive 3 were already composed...and who knows, perhaps the
Waiting for Godot opera may really be in the making (I know, this is wishful thinking, but....)...
Quote from: ritter on September 06, 2014, 08:12:10 AM
Well, Boulez has been working on some additional orchestrations of the Douze Notations, and in the booklet of the "Complete Works - Work in Progress" box on DG issued last year, Claude Samuel mentioned that some 11 minutes of Dérive 3 were already composed...and who knows, perhaps the Waiting for Godot opera may really be in the making (I know, this is wishful thinking, but....)...
Quote from: ritter on September 06, 2014, 08:12:10 AM
Well, Boulez has been working on some additional orchestrations of the Douze Notations, and in the booklet of the "Complete Works - Work in Progress" box on DG issued last year, Claude Samuel mentioned that some 11 minutes of Dérive 3 were already composed...and who knows, perhaps the Waiting for Godot opera may really be in the making (I know, this is wishful thinking, but....)...
I'd like to see more of the
Notations orchestrated. I think that they make a more-than-worthy (although late) addition to the trio of the Schoenberg/Berg/Webern Funf/Drei/Sechs Orchesterstucke.
And thanks to syprrr, now I always am fearing the worst when I see this thread bumped!
This debate with Pierre Boulez in Amsterdam some 20 years ago is very interesting. In a very relaxed tone, Boulez talks about his development as a conductor (with concrete examples of Webern--opus 10--and Debussy--Jeux--), his admiration for Ligeti, Carter, Birtwistle, etc.
The sound quality is not excellent, but the video is certainly worth viewing for anyone with an interest in Boulez's work.
http://www.youtube.com/v/xVq3ulNnWn0
Quote from: EigenUser on September 06, 2014, 09:12:10 AM
And thanks to syprrr, now I always am fearing the worst when I see this thread bumped!
mmmmm
I'd LIKE to think that I'd see "it" before I got here- meaning, that the outside world would take notice and I'd see it on the Yahoo header or whatever. But, yea, every time I see this Thread bumped... gulp (or "yaaay" depending on your...)...
btw- a New Work? Come ON people,- it would be so scrubbed and "perfect"- it would sound soooooo 1973- please- no more orchestrations, piano trifles, - "Godot"???? uuugggghhhhh... noNoNOOOO!!!!!!
Unless Boulez Composes a Violin Concerto at 90 I'm just not interested. I just don't believe he's got anything to say that I want to hear. Why can't we just accept that 'Repons' and 'Sur incises' IS WHAT WE GOT? "GOT"- like in past tense. He DID die. oy vey- we're not going to get anything... come on people...
I'll pull for a Violin Concerto, but otherwise, good night Petey! CONDUCT SOME XENAKIS fffs
\sorry for the rant :-[ :-[ :-[
Composing was always just a wing of his larger aim to Propagandize 8)
I just read this biography on Boulez called Composer, Conductor, Enigma. What a character! There was this funny story where Boulez was recalling an argument with Stockhausen about a performance of the latter's Mixtur. Paraphrasing Boulez, "He told me that he still hasn't heard a good performance of it. I told him that this is because it isn't a very good piece." :laugh:
I laughed so hard when I read that.
Quote from: EigenUser on September 15, 2014, 02:04:58 PM
Paraphrasing Boulez, "He told me that he still hasn't heard a good performance of it. I told him that this is because it isn't a very good piece." :laugh:
Let's just hope to god that James doesn't read that. It could destroy his faith in both composers ;D
Sarge
Quote from: EigenUser on September 15, 2014, 02:04:58 PM
I just read this biography on Boulez called Composer, Conductor, Enigma. What a character! There was this funny story where Boulez was recalling an argument with Stockhausen about a performance of the latter's Mixtur. Paraphrasing Boulez, "He told me that he still hasn't heard a good performance of it. I told him that this is because it isn't a very good piece." :laugh:
I laughed so hard when I read that.
From the
Simon Rattle series of 20th C. music
LEAVING HOME (it's on Youtube,
watch it if you haven't)
When asked by a string player “why do we have all these parts when surely they can't all be heard. We have rehearsed them for hours, we have practiced them for days. Why have you written them if they can't be heard?“,
Boulez answered: “It's not that. It's just that if you see a tree, you don't see each individual leaf, but you can certainly see if the leaves aren't there, and I need all of you playing, I need all of the leaves.”
Quote from: North Star on September 15, 2014, 02:28:18 PM
From the Simon Rattle series of 20th C. music LEAVING HOME (it's on Youtube, watch it if you haven't)
When asked by a string player "why do we have all these parts when surely they can't all be heard. We have rehearsed them for hours, we have practiced them for days. Why have you written them if they can't be heard?", Boulez answered: "It's not that. It's just that if you see a tree, you don't see each individual leaf, but you can certainly see if the leaves aren't there, and I need all of you playing, I need all of the leaves."
I've seen it before -- a very, very good film. Fueled my interest in Messiaen. I remember that quote from Rattle's documentary. There was also the one about Messiaen where he asked to for the orchestra to play "a little more bluish-green" or something like that.
Quote from: EigenUser on September 15, 2014, 02:32:36 PM
I've seen it before -- a very, very good film. Fueled my interest in Messiaen. I remember that quote from Rattle's documentary. There was also the one about Messiaen where he asked to for the orchestra to play "a little more bluish-green" or something like that.
Yes, those synaesthetic guidances always crack me up, as if anyone else knows what he is talking about - even if they happen to have that form of synaesthesia, they're hardly likely to see the same colours when hearing the same notes..
Quote from: North Star on September 15, 2014, 02:39:14 PM
Yes, those synaesthetic guidances always crack me up, as if anyone else knows what he is talking about - even if they happen to have that form of synaesthesia, they're hardly likely to see the same colours when hearing the same notes..
Last month or so I was with my friend at the piano imitating Messiaen playing a scale of really dissonant chords with my eyes closed, saying things like
"Voila, c'est bleu-violet avec un peu rouge, un peu gris..." (I was exaggerating in my impersonation, but there was a similar clip of Messiaen in Rattle's documentary).
Quote from: North Star on September 15, 2014, 02:28:18 PM
From the Simon Rattle series of 20th C. music LEAVING HOME (it's on Youtube, watch it if you haven't)
When asked by a string player "why do we have all these parts when surely they can't all be heard. We have rehearsed them for hours, we have practiced them for days. Why have you written them if they can't be heard?", Boulez answered: "It's not that. It's just that if you see a tree, you don't see each individual leaf, but you can certainly see if the leaves aren't there, and I need all of you playing, I need all of the leaves."
In this case I applaud him for not having a "Hitler Rant" and smackin' the fiddler!! How daaare he... question... a... Composer (seriously though- what do you mean "Why?")
Quote from: karlhenning on September 15, 2014, 06:21:08 AM
Composing was always just a wing of his larger aim to Propagandize 8)
I'd muuuch rather hear Spaulding Gray do an hour of Boulezisms than hear another quantum hexachord. ::)
Quote from: James on September 16, 2014, 03:07:16 AM
Sound like the 1970s? .. You mean the decade where he composed next to nothing and spent probably more time arguing with Stockhausen about Mixtur and talking shit about about Xenakis and how IX should have stayed in Architecture ..? And you can forget the Violin Concerto commission he received from Annie Sophie Mutter decades ago .. he's recently said "it's too late".
:(
oh come on Petey- just Compose something NICE- maybe some nice melodies- do the "goin' back to Schubert" thing everyone ends up doing. Come on--- ya can't just write a 10 minute Violin Concerto with an impossible melody? oy
"decades ago"
"it's too late"
errrrr.... uhhh.....
It was apparently too late decades ago. :(
I guess when I said "70s" I really meant Berio.---- "Berio, the '70s Boulez"
Professional Gadfly . . . ♫ It's a hard habit to break . . . .
THanks for posting that, James. I didn't know this video, and seeing Boulez at his most didactic is a real pleasure.
I didn't know the Donatoni piece, which is really inetersting (and more so when explained so clearly).
:) :) :)
Regards,
Quote from: James on October 10, 2014, 02:55:44 PM
Boulez, 20th Century
56 minutes, 40 seconds - documentary
http://www.youtube.com/v/ddEVRvNdL1I
This is part of the 6-part
Boulez XXe siècle, an outstanding and detailed survey about some of the key pieces of the 20th Century. It was this series that turned me on to contemporary music, when it came out. You can watch it in full here (http://medias.ircam.fr/x338e91).
thought it coulda been today :(
What is a formant? (as in the 3rd piano sonata.)
Quote from: Mandryka on October 14, 2014, 10:30:35 AM
What is a formant? (as in the 3rd piano sonata.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_sonatas_(Boulez) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_sonatas_(Boulez))
QuoteOf the unpublished movements (or "formants", as Boulez calls them)
Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2014, 10:34:40 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_sonatas_(Boulez)
Yes, I know he called the sections formants, but what is a formant -- did he invent the word? That sounds like a strange thing to do.
I recently heard it in a discussion of Messiaen too.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 14, 2014, 11:15:14 AM
Yes, I know he called the sections formants, but what is a formant -- did he invent the word? That sounds like a strange thing to do.
I recently heard it in a discussion of Messiaen too.
Here's what Wikipedia says... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formant)
QuoteFormants are the distinguishing or meaningful frequency components of human articulation and of singing.
Formants are defined by Gunnar Fant[1] as "the spectral peaks of the sound spectrum of the voice". In speech science and phonetics, formant is also used to mean an acoustic resonance[2] of the human vocal tract. It is often measured as an amplitude peak in the frequency spectrum of the sound, using a spectrogram (in the figure) or a spectrum analyzer, though in vowels spoken with a high fundamental frequency, as in a female or child voice, the frequency of the resonance may lie between the widely-spread harmonics and hence no peak is visible.
In acoustics, it refers to a peak in the sound envelope and/or to a resonance in sound sources, notably musical instruments, as well as that of sound chambers. Any room can be said to have a formant unique to that particular room, due to the way sound may bounce differently across its walls and objects. Room formants of this nature reinforce themselves by emphasizing specific frequencies and absorbing others, as exploited, for example, by Alvin Lucier in his piece I Am Sitting in a Room.
Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2014, 11:20:24 AM
Here's what Wikipedia says... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formant)
Thanks. Much appreciated.
But now the problem is to explain how all that techie stuff makes sense in the context of the sonata.
Boulez's proposed the term "formant" to replace the traditional term "movement" in this aleatoric work. Since the sections of the third piano sonata can be placed in the order of the performer's choosing, they do not move the piece forward to a defined end, so the term "movement" was deemed inappropriate. It has nothing to do with acoustics, as North Star misunderstands.
Quote from: CRCulver on October 14, 2014, 04:18:01 PM
Boulez's proposed the term "formant" to replace the traditional term "movement" in this aleatoric work. Since the sections of the third piano sonata can be placed in the order of the performer's choosing, they do not move the piece forward to a defined end, so the term "movement" was deemed inappropriate. It has nothing to do with acoustics, as North Star misunderstands.
I did not think that
Boulez's usage of the term had necessarily anything to do with that meaning, but
Boulez didn't invent the word, just seems to have made up a new meaning for it.
Quote from: James on October 15, 2014, 01:08:28 AM
Formant is French for to shape, form, fix, develop, mold, make etc.
Well, actually,
formant as a noun, in all dictionaries I've read, only refers to the concept used in phonetics (mentioned by
North Star). As far as I understand it, Boulez uses the word as the participle of the verb
former, with the sense(s) that James has mentioned. So, to a certain extent, it is a neologism of sorts...
OK, whatever...but the noun formant does (did) not exist in French with the meaning that Boulez clearly uses for it (or in Spanish or Italian, for that matter)...::)
On a different note, the soon-to-be-opened Philharmonie in Paris will host a "Boulez weekend" in March 2015, to celebrate the composer's 90th birthday. A highlight will be a concert with students of the Paris conservatoire, with world premiers of homages to Boulez by composers such as Betsy Jolas, Bruno Mantovani, Philippe Manoury, Hugues Dufourt, and many more...
Also, an exhibition on Boulez will run from March through June...
http://saison-2015.philharmoniedeparis.fr/weekends/agenda?field_theme_tid=569
Formant. One alternative way of looking at it is that Boulez meant to draw attention to the music as an exploration of resonanaces, there's an awful lot of pedal directions in the score. I just listened to Rosen playing it, listening out for the resonances - this may well be a good way into the music.
Has anyone here studied the score? I wonder if there are any special, unusual, pedal effects.
When he was writing Pli selon Pli, he was interested in the idea of a form which was continually fresh and being formed in performance. This was something he and Stockhausen thought was special about a Gamelan concert they heard. So the idea of music as something in perpetual formation, rather than fitting into an existing preestablished structure, is a very Bolezian idea. So I'm quite attracted to the idea that he chose "formant" to suggest something "forming"
The question is proving to be quite a fruitful one.
In his discussion of Messiaen's Catalogue d'oiseaux, Harry Holbreich defines the notion of a formant as "sound-objects, bird song, a complex of colours or of rhythms, of course never resembling each other from one appearance to the next, taking the place of the old idea of themes."
In Par volonté et par hasard, Boulez told something similar to what CRCulver posted. The interviewer questioned about the term formant used for the third sonata because that surprised him. Boulez contrasted the term formant with another term développant, the former being uniform but movable and the latter being non-uniform and possibly interfered each other. He didn't explain why he used present participles. They are related to the structure, and he didn't say anything about the sound spectrum or resonances.
Quote from: torut on October 15, 2014, 05:45:03 PM
In Par volonté et par hasard, Boulez told something similar to what CRCulver posted. The interviewer questioned about the term formant used for the third sonata because that surprised him. Boulez contrasted the term formant with another term développant, the former being uniform but movable and the latter being non-uniform and possibly interfered each other. He didn't explain why he used present participles. They are related to the structure, and he didn't say anything about the sound spectrum or resonances.
Interesting, thank you.
I just had a bowel formant. Please call a doctor!! ???
Quote from: ritter on October 27, 2014, 07:20:37 AM
I think you've got an excellent point there, Così.... It seems that if Boulez attacks something we like, then he's an unremitting ass. But Boulez's proselytizing is the result of a thoroughly intellectual approach to the art of music, and to the need (undiminished to this day) to put accross a certain way of looking at this art.
I don't think it is necessarily that.
Stravinsky expressed coy opinions about many composers, and while I do not share his dislike of
Vivaldi (e.g.), one writes such remarks off.
But I think, in the first place, that a
thoroughly intellectual approach to music is of itself fundamentally wrong-headed; and that
Boulez has been disingenuous to some degree or another in many of his musical
fatwas over the decades.
Quote from: Sadko on October 27, 2014, 07:24:28 AM
I didn't know anything about Boulez' behaviour and character before. In general though I dislike ideologies and their aggressive disciples. So many things were considered "the latest", "the only possible way, 'nowadays'", and history has passed over it ... It is so unwise and immature, and lacking respect for the other. I have no problem if someone passionately dislikes something, but I passionateley dislike it myself if someone proclaims his beliefs to be "the right way, and the only way".
Yes, the whole "clique mindset" is activist, and inartistic.
Well, first let's not lose all that has been said already :
Quote from: Ken B on October 26, 2014, 02:53:27 PM
Well, a lot of people don't like Richard Strauss. Me, I'd happily give Boulez the finger.
Quote from: EigenUser on October 26, 2014, 03:35:14 PM
For some reason I thought that you liked Boulez... Didn't you say that you enjoy the piano sonatas?
These were actually the works that turned me off of his music for a long time.
Quote from: Ken B on October 26, 2014, 04:15:02 PM
I'd give Bach the finger if he were like Boulez as a person.
Quote from: EigenUser on October 26, 2014, 04:20:18 PM
Oh, I see what you mean. Well, he's gotten better... I was talking to the former conductor at my university last year about Boulez and he said that he's met him a few times and comes across as very friendly.
Some of his old quotes are (unintentionally) hilarious, though. My favorite is the one I mentioned earlier about Stockhausen: "He still complains that he hasn't heard a good recording of his Mixture. I told him that its because it is not a very good piece." Then there's always the brothel music one directed at Messiaen.
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 27, 2014, 02:03:59 AM
That's not a very nice thing to say about our dear Bouboule :(
Quote from: ritter on October 27, 2014, 02:09:27 AM
...who's pen may have been very sharp, but personally is extremely well-mannered and pleasant. I had the chance to briefly exchange some words with him; as a teenager--me, not him ;)--in Bayreuth in 1979, and then more recently in the nineties in Madrid and in a on-line conversation in the now extinct Deutsche Grammophon forum, and he was charming...
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 27, 2014, 02:16:40 AM
Yes. I guess he's actually very French : a little egocentrical, with sharp ideas and a will to express them, but well-mannered, polite and (as far as I know) quite humane.
Quote from: Ken B on October 27, 2014, 05:01:39 AM
Who organizes riots to suppress music he doesn't like.
If he had had the power he's have been a second Zhdanov.
Quote from: Baklavaboy on October 27, 2014, 05:46:51 AM
Yeah, at least according to Ross's book, when he was younger he was a manipulative little &%$#. As I recall, he would vindictively attack Stravinsky behind his back for not being radical enough and selling out progressive ideals, and then turn around and kiss his ass because he needed him on a bill with "good" (i.e.. more "modern") composers so as to get funding and sell tickets. Whats more surprising is he later he built up his rep by conducting the Stravinsky oeuvre. Not particularly admirable.
But then conductors, like generals, are often unattractive when studied closely. Best to just measure them by what they produced.
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 27, 2014, 06:00:08 AM
Well, he was 20 years old, and he led a riot against the neoclassical programs (with Stravinsky works, but that was a secondary question) of the first concerts of contemporary music in Paris after the Libération.
So, 2 things :
- first, I think anyone i entitled to a few mistakes or excessive acts at such a young age, and such "mistakes" are certainly preferable to those of an old Cortot ;
- furthermore, I don't think his position, at such a time, was entirely uncalled for : for years so much music had been banned as entartete and, when it was possible again to play it, the fact that some neoclassical Stravinsky was programmed could not only be conceived as timid, but might have fueled the feeling that it was also kind of a forced choice, when American troops were still everywhere around.
I therefore think these accusations are really utterly ridiculous and insulting for a man who has always resisted political establishment (refusing to conduct in Paris Opera for the rest of his life after Barenboim was unfairly sacked) but used it also when it was useful for others (to fund the permanent Ensemble InterContemporain in Paris, for instance). A man who defended the works of so many composers (including Stravinsky) at times and in places when it was not always easy to play them, and fought at the same time for low ticket prices and free educative concerts. Nobody is perfect, and Boulez is not the only one who did such things, but he is certainly among the best models for younger conductors.
Quote from: ritter on October 27, 2014, 06:10:45 AM
Well, Ross's statements are not quite exact (and, AFAIK, Ross is not really much of a Boulez fan). Boulez never made a secret of his distaste for anything neoclassical (including Stravinsky's music of the 30s and 40s). Simultaneously, he has always acknowledged his admiration for the "Russian" works (Sacre, Les Noces, etc., etc.). Igor Stravinsky was fully aware of this, but yet maintained a cordial relationship with the junior composer that had started on a very good note at a dinner party in NYC (organized by Virgil Thomson, IIRC) in the late 40s . There were lots of disagreements (most notably, after the disatrous Paris première of Threni), but still, both men respected and, I'd say, were fond each other until Stravinsky's death. This might be difficult to assess completely, of course, because our knowledge of late Stravinsky is somewhat distorted (for lack of a better word) by Robert Craft--and it does seem there was no love lost between Craft and Boulez from the late 1950s onwards.
I for one can perfectly understand the"angry young man" Boulez (in the immediate post-WW II period) vehemently attacking what was considered the musical "establishment", in order to publicize his ideas and promote a (then) new and radical aesthetics. And the main symbol of that establishment were Stravinsky's works of the 30s and 40s, which were given in the infamous concert in 1945 or 1946--conducted by Manuel Rosenthal and booed by members of the "younger generation" (apparently Boulez himself was not present that evening, but he has said he would have booed if he had been :D ).
Quote from: karlhenning on October 27, 2014, 06:24:36 AM
Well, Boulez is within his rights to express his musical distastes with scorn and disdain (which is a practice he has not particularly grown out of); but I am under no obligation to admire him for that practice (weakness, I should say).
Also (probably predictably, as I am both a composer and a conductor) I am loth to generalize about either conductors or composers based on Boulez as an individual. I appreciate the efforts here to think the best of Boulez; I just wonder how many misdemeanors we must wink at, over the long years.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 27, 2014, 06:44:07 AM
Yes, I don't admire Boulez at all as a person. He's an amazing musician, but his personal likes and dislikes never interested me. At the end of the day, he's not doing himself any favors by expressing these dislikes however. I think a musician of his caliber should be a professional and knowing just the way he treated Dutilleux in his younger days alone is enough for me, like Ken, to give him the finger, but I can restrain myself of course. :)
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 27, 2014, 06:56:12 AM
Again, massive disrespect mainly based on rumors. For a long time, Boulez made a point not talking about Dutilleux, not even pronouncing his name, because he didn't feel like criticizing a colleague but didn't share much with him on a musical ground. But this changed in the 80s and Boulez frequently acknowledged his respect for the late compositions by Dutilleux. If not friends, they both had developed a deep respect for each other and mutually appreciated their contributions.
Anyone is entitled to see himself as a member of the "anti-boulezian" tendency. But let's stop pretending there are musical reasons under these postures, when everyone knows on which ground this opposition lies, really.
Quote from: ritter on October 27, 2014, 07:20:37 AM
I think you've got an excellent point there, Così.... It seems that if Boulez attacks something we like, then he's an unremitting ass. But Boulez's proselytizing is the result of a thoroughly intellectual approach to the art of music, and to the need (undiminished to this day) to put accross a certain way of looking at this art.
So, I may enjoy a Verdi opera thoroughly, but can understand Boulez when he says Verdi is "stupid, stupid, stupid!" :D. For many reasons (I'm originally Venezuelan, I'm a bit of a francophile, and I really admire Marcel Proust), I have a weak spot for Reynaldo Hahn; so, when I read in an interview, that Boulez had said "Reynaldo Hahn died just one year after taking over the directorship of the Paris Opera, thank God" ::), it kind of hurt, but I can appreciate Boulez not having any time to lose with the Reynaldo Hahn's of this world. And there's many more examples...
I've read somewhere that Boulez is a hypocrite because he was very polite to Shostakovitch when he met him (in Moscow), even if he despises his music...What did people expect? For him to spit on good old Dmitri? Really...
Sorry! André is right...we're going way off-topic here. Aplogies for that :-[
Quote from: Sadko on October 27, 2014, 07:24:28 AM
I didn't know anything about Boulez' behaviour and character before. In general though I dislike ideologies and their aggressive disciples. So many things were considered "the latest", "the only possible way, 'nowadays'", and history has passed over it ... It is so unwise and immature, and lacking respect for the other. I have no problem if someone passionately dislikes something, but I passionateley dislike it myself if someone proclaims his beliefs to be "the right way, and the only way".
I will never forget a little experience at school: I had newly discovered a composer I had never heard of before, and when I talked about it to my teacher his answer was "But he is so un-progressive/backward!". Oh, I thought (a pity I didn't say it then :-), that's how you judge, it's not about what he means to you, or what your student is enthusiastic about, it is about compliance with "the received way". I found this so shallow.
PS: I'm not very keen on this composer, Werner Egk, any more :)
I personally feel that Boulez's legacy will not be one of fondness but rather one that is looked back upon as wishing he would have taken a less aggressive approach to criticizing music he didn't enjoy and for being a bit more humble about music in general. I certainly don't think his music has made much of an impact, but his work as a conductor is quite noteworthy and deserves, at least, some reverence.
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 27, 2014, 07:45:51 AM
Well, first let's not lose all that has been said already :
Thanks for your efforts.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 27, 2014, 07:52:27 AM
I personally feel that Boulez's legacy will not be one of fondness but rather one that is looked back upon as wishing he would have taken a less aggressive approach to criticizing music he didn't enjoy and for being a bit more humble about music in general. I certainly don't think his music has made much of an impact, but his work as a conductor is quite noteworthy and deserves, at least, some reverence.
I don't think Boulez's "legacy" will be negative criticism of others' music. We certainly remember the feud between Wagner and Brahms, or the bitter contempt Bartok had for Shostakovich, but we do not remember these things as essential parts of their legacy. Bartok is a great example - laughter at Shostakovich is written right into the score of the
Concerto for Orchestra, where it has been made immortal and unforgettable. Bartok's contempt is thus much more permanent, long-lasting, and outspoken than any words Boulez may have said in his youth. But I hope that there is no listener who loses respect of Bartok for doing this.
This is especially true because of the changes which came to Boulez in maturity, well captured in the posts by ritter and Cosi bel do. Well captured also in his great recordings of Stravinsky, Ravel, Debussy, Mahler, etc. With a critic and thinker like Boulez, the act of recording that music says something very important about his artistic point of view.
Quote from: Brian on October 27, 2014, 08:00:26 AM
I don't think Boulez's "legacy" will be negative criticism of others' music. We certainly remember the feud between Wagner and Brahms, or the bitter contempt Bartok had for Shostakovich, but we do not remember these things as essential parts of their legacy. Bartok is a great example - laughter at Shostakovich is written right into the score of the Concerto for Orchestra, where it has been made immortal and unforgettable. Bartok's contempt is thus much more permanent, long-lasting, and outspoken than any words Boulez may have said in his youth. But I hope that there is no listener who loses respect of Bartok for doing this.
This is especially true because of the changes which came to Boulez in maturity, well captured in the posts by ritter and Cosi bel do. Well captured also in his great recordings of Stravinsky, Ravel, Debussy, Mahler, etc. With a critic and thinker like Boulez, the act of recording that music says something very important about his artistic point of view.
Certainly his actions have spoken louder than his words.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 27, 2014, 07:27:13 AM
I don't think it is necessarily that. Stravinsky expressed coy opinions about many composers, and while I do not share his dislike of Vivaldi (e.g.), one writes such remarks off.
But I think, in the first place, that a thoroughly intellectual approach to music is of itself fundamentally wrong-headed; and that Boulez has been disingenuous to some degree or another in many of his musical fatwas over the decades.
Why would we be more lenient on good old Igor than on good old Pierre? Stravinsky was extremely influential in his day, and had some very unpleasant things to say about Vivaldi, and Mahler, and Wagner, and...actually, I've had access to an interview from the thirties in which he dismisses all German music (with the exception of Bach). Wasn't he doing that to put across his aesthetic views? And I rank Stravinsky--including much of his neoclassical music-- and Wagner at the very top of my own personal pantheon (in case there's any doubt ;) ).
What I don't understand is why "a
thoroughly intellectual approach to music is of itself fundamentally wrong-headed"? Aren't we being as intolerant with Boulez as we say he is with others? ??? I understand many not sharing that view, but one cannot deny that Boulez is a very,
very eloquent proselytizer and that he argues his postions rather successfully... Excessive perhaps? Of course, but he is a man with a mission, and as such a necessary and irreplaceable figure of music of the past 65 years! :)
It is clear that I cannot be impartial in this: Boulez has accompanied my love of music since I'm about 15, when my father gave me as a present his
Parsifal from Bayreuth (at the time my lifelong admiration for Wagner was starting). Then I heard (of all places, in the inflight entertainment system of an Air France flight from Paris to Caracas ??? ) parts of
Le Marteau, and was fascinated...And then he opened the doors of Stravinsky, Debussy, Ravel and many more to me...For that, I can only thank him 'til the end of my life. I consider Pierre Boulez one of the strongest intellectual (yes, that is the word) influences on me (even if there's much of his theoretical oeuvre that is way beyond my level of comprehension). And his recordings and the numerous occasions I've seen him live I will always cherish... :)
Cheers,,
Boulez is, alas, one of the greatest conductors ever in his chosen repertoire. I think he had(has) an immense talent. Talent is no excuse for being a shit, and shouldn't ward off "the finger". Wagner had even greater talent and left an astonishing artistic legacy. Wagner is one of the greatest and most influential creative geniuses in history. But I'd give him the finger, and I bet Ritter, Cosi and others would too. Conclusion: Boulez's art is irrelevant to the question.
Boulez worked to punish those composers (and audiences!), the "USELESS" and "STUPID STUPID STUPID" ones, whose music and taste did not fit his ideology of what music should or must be.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 27, 2014, 07:52:27 AM
I certainly don't think his music has made much of an impact, but his work as a conductor is quite noteworthy and deserves, at least, some reverence.
I do hope you give Boulez's music another chance...it may be difficult (but you know, "no pain, no gain" ;) ), but once you've made the effort to appreciate it, the intense (almost hedonistic) and profound beauty of his soundworld just bowls you over... I think it is a bit daring to say his music has not made much of an impact, frankly... :-X
Quote from: Brian on October 27, 2014, 07:54:25 AM
Thanks to everyone for this very interesting discussion of Boulez. It's actually increased my respect for Boulez. (And also made me very happy, not for the first time, that Cosi bel do has chosen to return to the forum.)
Thanks 8)
I'm happy if it has given a little balance to Boulez's image :)
Quote from: Sadko on October 27, 2014, 07:24:28 AM
I didn't know anything about Boulez' behaviour and character before. In general though I dislike ideologies and their aggressive disciples. So many things were considered "the latest", "the only possible way, 'nowadays'", and history has passed over it ... It is so unwise and immature, and lacking respect for the other. I have no problem if someone passionately dislikes something, but I passionateley dislike it myself if someone proclaims his beliefs to be "the right way, and the only way".
Well, I think Boulez must not dislike entirely the reject or even hatred expressed towards him. I don't think you leave such a long-lasting impression without finding a little pleasure in it. I seems to me he likes controversy and is not afraid being disliked. And, frankly, in the times he lived in, a young adult during 2nd World War, a conductor and composer with radical left beliefs but working in the West and not an admirer of the soviet system, I guess this attitude is quite honourable.
That said, he is only a musician, and in such a profession as in any you can find all types of behaviours, and not always pleasant ones. But even in his expressions of distaste, at least Boulez never appeared petty as far as I know, and never seemed to act in order to preserve his own personal interests, as illustrate the fact that he never wanted anything to do with the Opéra de Paris anymore, or repeatedly criticized the French political milieu as a whole as very poorly cultured and deeply ignorant of the arts. His postures (strong, radical, extreme...), his will to express clear opinions without bowing before authorities make of him something of a musical Jean-Paul Sartre.
About his legacy, he will certainly be remembered as a conductor more than a composer, but let's face it, there are not many composers from the 2nd half of the last century who are better known than the most famous conductors. I'd say none of them, actually. But among composers, I'm not sure Boulez will be entirely forgotten. Or this means a lot of music of the same period will also be...
Quote from: ritter on October 27, 2014, 08:13:44 AM
It is clear that I cannot be impartial in this:
I don't require that you be impartial, that you be (nor pretend to be) purely intellectual here.
Perhaps I am lenient to
Stravinsky because he composed a great body of work, and much of it is of surpassing excellence, and some few pieces from their midst were landmark works.
Boulez gave us ready and sharp opinions . . . and did a little composing. Someone would have done that boy a service if early on they'd said, "Shut up and play yer guitar."
Quote from: karlhenning on October 27, 2014, 08:20:41 AM
I don't require that you be impartial, that you be (nor pretend to be) purely intellectual here.
Perhaps I am lenient to Stravinsky because he composed a great body of work, and much of it is of surpassing excellence, and some few pieces from their midst were landmark works.
Boulez gave us ready and sharp opinions . . . and did a little composing. Someone would have done that boy a service if early on they'd said, "Shut up and play yer guitar."
Stravinsky's musical pronouncements are all over the map. Some seem frankly stupid. But one thing there never were was part of a an effort to suppress other people's music.
Quote from: Ken B on October 27, 2014, 08:15:29 AM
Boulez is, alas, one of the greatest conductors ever in his chosen repertoire. I think he had(has) an immense talent. Talent is no excuse for being a shit, and shouldn't ward off "the finger". Wagner had even greater talent and left an astonishing artistic legacy. Wagner is one of the greatest and most influential creative geniuses in history. But I'd give him the finger, and I bet Ritter, Cosi and others would too. Conclusion: Boulez's art is irrelevant to the question.
Boulez worked to punish those composers (and audiences!), the "USELESS" and "STUPID STUPID STUPID" ones, whose music and taste did not fit his ideology of what music should or must be.
I don't think I would give the finger to Wagner, no, I don't see why I should judge a man of the 19th century with my 21th century spirit and values. I'm sure I wouldn't agree on everything with Beethoven, Bach or Josquin Desprez either...
But I sure respect more Boulez as a person as I would have respected Cortot, or Karajan, or Mengelberg, or many other musicians I can still admire as musicians but who have, in my opinion, not been entirely innocent when considering their personal contribution to history.
And stop describing Boulez as something he is not. He never punished anyone, and never banned any composer from concerts as a musical director. There are just many works he wouldn't conduct himself. I don't think a musician should have an obligation to perform any piece of music.
Quote from: Ken B on October 27, 2014, 08:25:05 AM
Stravinsky's musical pronouncements are all over the map. Some seem frankly stupid. But one thing there never were was part of a an effort to suppress other people's music.
Well, again, Boulez did not do anything like that either.
Quote from: Ken B on October 27, 2014, 08:25:05 AM
Stravinsky's musical pronouncements are all over the map. Some seem frankly stupid. But one thing there never were was part of a an effort to suppress other people's music.
That is fair.
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 27, 2014, 08:27:11 AM
Well, again, Boulez did not do anything like that either.
Of course he did. Cosi bel do, let me quote Cosi bel do:
Quotehe led a riot against the neoclassical programs
I think that Boulez's music will last for at least as long as there's an Ensemble Intercontemporain. In recent years, as his own conducting has declined, his ensemble works have been taken up by Mälkki, Mantovani and Pintscher. His piano works have got several new recordings in recent years. Quatuor Diotima is touring his Livre pour cordes. I think his legacy will do fine, at least for a while.
Quote from: CRCulver on October 27, 2014, 08:41:54 AM
I think that Boulez’s music will last for at least as long as there’s an Ensemble Intercontemporain. In recent years, as his own conducting has declined, his ensemble works have been taken up by Mälkki, Mantovani and Pintscher. His piano works have got several new recordings in recent years. Quatuor Diotima is touring his Livre pour cordes. I think his legacy will do fine, at least for a while.
Few though his works be, he is at the head of his class.
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 27, 2014, 08:27:11 AM
Well, again, Boulez did not do anything like that either.
Exactly...it would appear that Boulez had intended (and, moreover, achieved :o ) to wipe all music he didn't like off the map...that is nonsense >:(. When he was most vociferous in transmitting his views and "message" (the mid-sixties, when his conducting career really started to take off), Shostakovitch was being performed all over the world, Britten's
War Requiem was the best selling classical record in the UK for years, the repertoire of opera houses (those that had to be "blown up" :D ) was still mainly Puccini, Verdi, Ponchielli, Gounod, etc., and the daily bread-and-butter of most symphony orchestras around the world was Brahms and Tchaikovsky...But there was one man who said: "music
is much more than this, music
must be much more than this" and didn't take the easy route of furthering his conducting career by performing the war horses (which he disliked), but rather worked to open the eyes (or rather, the ears) of many to another, very rich world... And I, at least, am grateful to Boulez for this... 8)
Funnily, when asked the cliché question in an interview: "Whom from the past would you have wanted to have dinner with?", his answer was "Richard Wagner" :D Birds of a feather, I guess... ;)
Quote from: Ken B on October 27, 2014, 08:36:53 AM
Of course he did. Cosi bel do, let me quote Cosi bel do: "he led a riot against the neoclassical programs"
He was 20 years old at the time, and virtually unknown...You make it sound as if, as the
grand seigneur of contemporary music, he had sent a parcel bomb form his office at IRCAM (which would not be founded for another 30 years or so) or something like that ::)
If we were all assessed, at the ends of our careers, based on the stupid things we said and did at the age of 20, we would all be doomed to shame and disgrace everlasting.
Quote from: Brian on October 27, 2014, 08:55:29 AM
If we were all assessed, at the ends of our careers, based on the stupid things we said and did at the age of 20, we would all be doomed to shame and disgrace everlasting.
That's true.
Have I missed something? Because my impression is that
Boulez has remained gadflyish well beyond any question of youthful indiscretion.
Quote from: BoulezHistory is much like the guillotine. If a composer is not moving in the right direction he will be killed, metaphorically speaking.
There is no
offense in this, to be sure; but the idea of there being one right direction is so . . . quaint.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 27, 2014, 09:00:44 AM
That's true.
Have I missed something? Because my impression is that Boulez has remained gadflyish well beyond any question of youthful indiscretion.
Ken is making the charge that Boulez actively suppressed music he disliked and tried to restrict artistic freedoms, which is very different from being gadflyish.
I think that is overstating the case. I don't think that is overstating what he wishes he might do, but we are not (unlike Boulez in his wilder days) the Thought Police ;)
American composers in New York and environs may have thought that his appointment as M.D. of the NY Phil would have proven something of an opportunity for local talent; the point was raised that a musician should not be obliged to perform music he does not like, which I think something of an impractically idealist notion. But certainly Boulez only advanced the music of contemporaries whose work he favored. Heck, we might say the same of Alex Ross in his best-selling book.
To repeat, there are aspects of his career where I wish I could think better of him than it seems to me that the facts justify. But I think of him more as petty and tawdry than as guilty.
Well, I hope we at least agree that Alex Ross is no Pierre Boulez :D... we can like or dislike Boulez as an artist and as a thinker, but he undoubtedly is one of the crucial figures in music since WW II. I really can't see Alex Ross's claim to fame (if there is one) being remotely in the league of Boulez's... This is like comparing Eduard Hanslick to Richard Wagner... ;)
On the other issue, I really don't understand how someone with views as strong as Boulez's could be expected to advance the music of the contemporaries whose work he didn't favour ::)... those contemporaries could seek their own advocates (and there were plenty of advocates--some as famous as Boulez, if not more so). I don't know, this is as if someone had asked Stravinsky to conduct the prelude from Die Meistersinger in his appearances with the NYPO, or something like that,,, :D
Quote from: ritter on October 27, 2014, 10:19:30 AMI really can't see Alex Ross's claim to fame (if there is one)
If I may briefly interject, Alex Ross's claim to fame is that he writes about music with admirable clarity and explanatory power. Most people who write about music do so in a messy or confused way, or simply have no idea how to take the sounds and describe them in words. Ross is exceptionally good at this, one of the best describers of sound ever. He also speaks with passion about music he likes.
He would be a good GMGer. 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on October 27, 2014, 09:06:11 AM
There is no offense in this, to be sure; but the idea of there being one right direction is so . . . quaint.
I am reminded of
Rachmaninov, only 2 years older than
Schoenberg, being ignored and even mocked in his later years as a fossil for not having gone the right way, i.e. away from tonality!
I have not read everything here today, but WOW! 8) Some great stuff!
Boulez seemingly became more open-minded in his later years, e.g. his
Mahler cycle on DGG, and the
Szymanowski recordings. Would he have ever considered conducting these composers back in the 1950's? :o :o :o To be sure, he conducted early
Schoenberg (e.g.
Gurrelieder) in the 1970's, 20 years after criticizing
Schoenberg for not following "total serialism."
Perhaps that marked the beginning of his maturity? 0:)
Quote from: Brian on October 27, 2014, 10:24:51 AM
If I may briefly interject, Alex Ross's claim to fame is that he writes about music with admirable clarity and explanatory power. Most people who write about music do so in a messy or confused way, or simply have no idea how to take the sounds and describe them in words. Ross is exceptionally good at this, one of the best describers of sound ever. He also speaks with passion about music he likes.
He would be a good GMGer. 8)
Fair enough! ;) I've taken exception to many of the views expressed by Ross (surprise, surprise :D ), but agree that he's done a formidable job in "explaining" modern music to a wider audience...
Cheers,
Quote from: ritter on October 27, 2014, 10:19:30 AMOn the other issue, I really don't understand how someone with views as strong as Boulez's could be expected to advance the music of the contemporaries whose work he didn't favour ::)... those contemporaries could seek their own advocates (and there were plenty of advocates--some as famous as Boulez, if not more so). I don't know, this is as if someone had asked Stravinsky to conduct the prelude from Die Meistersinger in his appearances with the NYPO, or something like that,,, :D
One could even say the same thing about Bernstein. After all, he never conducted Messiaen's Turangalila symphony (or any other Messiaen score) after creating it (on Stokowski's insistence)... Should we say Bernstein tried to destroy Messiaen's music ?
Quote from: Cato on October 27, 2014, 10:27:20 AM
Boulez seemingly became more open-minded in his later years, e.g. his Mahler cycle on DGG, and the Szymanowski recordings. Would he have ever considered conducting these composers back in the 1950's? :o :o :o To be sure, he conducted early Schoenberg (e.g. Gurrelieder) in the 1970's, 20 years after criticizing Schoenberg for not following "total serialism."
Perhaps that marked the beginning of his maturity? 0:)
And still, he conducted and recorded some Haendel and Beethoven in the 1960s...
No man is all black or all white, even in his most radical postures. Even Furtwängler conducted some Mahler and Böhm some Schoenberg...
Quote from: Brian on October 27, 2014, 08:00:26 AM
I don't think Boulez's "legacy" will be negative criticism of others' music. We certainly remember the feud between Wagner and Brahms, or the bitter contempt Bartok had for Shostakovich, but we do not remember these things as essential parts of their legacy. Bartok is a great example - laughter at Shostakovich is written right into the score of the Concerto for Orchestra, where it has been made immortal and unforgettable. Bartok's contempt is thus much more permanent, long-lasting, and outspoken than any words Boulez may have said in his youth. But I hope that there is no listener who loses respect of Bartok for doing this.
Bitter contempt? For the 7th symphony, yes, but not for Shostakovich as a whole. I don't take that as a malicious thing at all and it certainly wasn't Bartok's character to do so in such a way. Aside from the 7th, Bartok thought highly of Shostakovich.
Quote from: ritter on October 27, 2014, 10:19:30 AM
On the other issue, I really don't understand how someone with views as strong as Boulez's could be expected to advance the music of the contemporaries whose work he didn't favour ::)... those contemporaries could seek their own advocates (and there were plenty of advocates--some as famous as Boulez, if not more so). I don't know, this is as if someone had asked Stravinsky to conduct the prelude from Die Meistersinger in his appearances with the NYPO, or something like that,,, :D
The difference there is that
Stravinsky was an occasional guest, and the understanding is that he conducts his own work. Where
Boulez was appointed the music director of a major US orchestra; that's not really the place where it is suitable for a European composer to make the band his private fiefdom.
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 27, 2014, 11:09:36 AM
One could even say the same thing about Bernstein. After all, he never conducted Messiaen's Turangalila symphony (or any other Messiaen score) after creating it (on Stokowski's insistence)... Should we say Bernstein tried to destroy Messiaen's music ?
Was
Messiaen a New Yorker, and
Bernstein refused to direct the NY Phil in the work?
Quote from: Cato on October 27, 2014, 10:27:20 AM
Boulez seemingly became more open-minded in his later years, e.g. his Mahler cycle on DGG, and the Szymanowski recordings. Would he have ever considered conducting these composers back in the 1950's?
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Boulez was conducting Mahler as early as the 1960s. It was his adoption of Bruckner and, a decade later, Janacek that really showed that the man had mellowed.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 27, 2014, 11:25:40 AM
Was Messiaen a New Yorker, and Bernstein refused to direct the NY Phil in the work?
I'm not sure that's really relevant. Is the NYP supposed to perform mainly music composed by New Yorkers ? In this case it would have been a good idea not to hire a non-NY (and even non-American !) conductor in the first place...
And anyway, what compositions are we talking about ? I mean, surely, all these numerous composers who were "banned" from NY by Boulez must have composed masterpieces that have since been recognized as such ?
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 27, 2014, 11:40:31 AM
I'm not sure that's really relevant. Is the NYP supposed to perform mainly music composed by New Yorkers?
I'm not sure your counter-question is relevant.
Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 27, 2014, 11:40:31 AM
I mean, surely, all these numerous composers who were "banned" from NY by Boulez must have composed masterpieces that have since been recognized as such ?
First, I am not using the term "banned." Just saying that I have read your question, and that although I answer I disagree with part of your premise ;)
Yes, a number of composers in the New York area, for whose work
Boulez had no time, are highly regarded in the music world.
Quote from: CRCulver on October 27, 2014, 11:31:59 AM
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Boulez was conducting Mahler as early as the 1960s. It was his adoption of Bruckner and, a decade later, Janacek that really showed that the man had mellowed.
In an interview he once stated that his first contact with Mahler was a visit of Bruno Walter to Paris in the early or mid-50s. He heard
Das Lied von der Erde and recalled thinking (about the beginning of
Der Abschied): "do-re-do-si-do, he's done it twice, he won't do it a third time, will he?" and then added "my reaction was so stupid" :D. Later Hans Rosbaud introduced him to the
Ninth symphony in Baden-Baden, and his perception of Mahler started to change. I don't know when he started conducting Mahler, but by the early 70s he was doing so regularly with the BBC SO (and at the Proms). The Bruckner thing was more a one-off, I think (has he ever conducted anything beside the
Eighth and the
Ninth and, if so, how often?). Janacek clearly was a late discovery (and a selective one at that, I might add)...
And conducting Bruckner was, for him, a kind of tribute to Klemperer, as I recall from what I've read him say about it.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 27, 2014, 11:20:37 AM
The difference there is that Stravinsky was an occasional guest, and the understanding is that he conducts his own work. Where Boulez was appointed the music director of a major US orchestra; that's not really the place where it is suitable for a European composer to make the band his private fiefdom.
Well, then let's say its like expecting Toscanini to have programmed Mahler regularly at the NBC ;) .
I really don't see why Boulez is considered to have turned the NYPO into his private fiefdom....he surely didn't conduct what he didn't like (well, I know there was Brahms once at least--some people will be able to say: " I saw Boulez do Brahms, and I lived to tell it" ;D ), but that is natural in any M.D., and it may be interesting to see the orchestra's programming during those years. I'm sure Tchaikovsky, and Copland, and...you name it, were presented by guest conductors...
Quote from: Brian on October 27, 2014, 08:55:29 AM
If we were all assessed, at the ends of our careers, based on the stupid things we said and did at the age of 20, we would all be doomed to shame and disgrace everlasting.
Indeed. But with Boulez the
stance persisted, while the
tactics changed. Whenever he could he tried to suppress other people's music if it did not fit his ideology.
Quote from: ritter on October 27, 2014, 08:46:13 AM
Exactly...it would appear that Boulez had intended (and, moreover, achieved :o ) to wipe all music he didn't like off the map...that is nonsense >:(. When he was most vociferous in transmitting his views and "message" (the mid-sixties, when his conducting career really started to take off), Shostakovitch was being performed all over the world, Britten's War Requiem was the best selling classical record in the UK for years, the repertoire of opera houses (those that had to be "blown up" :D ) was still mainly Puccini, Verdi, Ponchielli, Gounod, etc., and the daily bread-and-butter of most symphony orchestras around the world was Brahms and Tchaikovsky...But there was one man who said: "music is much more than this, music must be much more than this" and didn't take the easy route of furthering his conducting career by performing the war horses (which he disliked), but rather worked to open the eyes (or rather, the ears) of many to another, very rich world... And I, at least, am grateful to Boulez for this... 8)
Funnily, when asked the cliché question in an interview: "Whom from the past would you have wanted to have dinner with?", his answer was "Richard Wagner" :D Birds of a feather, I guess... ;)
He was 20 years old at the time, and virtually unknown...You make it sound as if, as the grand seigneur of contemporary music, he had sent a parcel bomb form his office at IRCAM (which would not be founded for another 30 years or so) or something like that ::)
The claims keep shifting.
He never did that.
He was young when he did that.
After he was young he was being
intellectual when he did that.
When he wasn't being an intellectual but a music director he was entitled to do that when he did that.
Hey, his music is great so it doesn't matter he did that.
Bottom line: he did that. A lot. For a long time. I don't ask anyone else give him the finger, but this is why I do.
Quote from: Ken B on October 27, 2014, 01:34:07 PM
Indeed. But with Boulez the stance persisted, while the tactics changed. Whenever he could he tried to suppress other people's music if it did not fit his ideology.
Okay so give some examples of trying to suppress other people's music. I'm not a hardcore Boulezian; I've learned a lot in this conversation. So, I really want to know the examples, just out of curiosity.
Quote from: Cato on October 27, 2014, 10:27:20 AM
I am reminded of Rachmaninov, only 2 years older than Schoenberg, being ignored and even mocked in his later years as a fossil for not having gone the right way, i.e. away from tonality!
I have not read everything here today, but WOW! 8) Some great stuff!
Boulez seemingly became more open-minded in his later years, e.g. his Mahler cycle on DGG, and the Szymanowski recordings. Would he have ever considered conducting these composers back in the 1950's? :o :o :o To be sure, he conducted early Schoenberg (e.g. Gurrelieder) in the 1970's, 20 years after criticizing Schoenberg for not following "total serialism."
Perhaps that marked the beginning of his maturity? 0:)
Perhaps it marked the beginning of his market savvy. He has become very rich.
But there's a logic here. If he became more open minded when he was older, then he was less open-minded
When he was younger, no?
Quote from: Ken B on October 27, 2014, 01:34:07 PM
Indeed. But with Boulez the stance persisted, while the tactics changed. Whenever he could he tried to suppress other people's music if it did not fit his ideology.
Repeating this notion that he tried to "surpress" any music, does not make it true,
Ken...Of course, Boulez expressed his (often negative) opinions on many composers in no uncertain terms, and refused to conduct what he thought was not worthwhile...but I'm sure he didn't give a hoot if the Orchestre National de France, for instance, was playing Dutilleux or Tchaikovsky in the Salle Pleyel on any given night...
And the awe he inspired in most of his colleagues (e.g. John Adam's referring to him as "a master with a very small hammer" ;D --the things one has to read sometimes ::) ) is certainly a sign that they could not be indiffrent to his thought... I repeat: that he said many things that one or the other of us didn't want to hear or didn't like hearing, doesn't mean he did not have the right (and, I'd say, the duty, as an artist and theorist of his caliber) to say them...
Quote from: Ken B on October 27, 2014, 01:44:02 PM
Perhaps it marked the beginning of his market savvy. He has become very rich.
But there's a logic here. If he became more open minded when he was older, then he was less open-minded
When he was younger, no?
Well, it
seems that way, but it was mentioned that e.g. his
Mahler interest perhaps goes back to the 1960's, so - maybe - he was more accepting of other earlier composers than he let on. ???
See:
Quote from: CRCulver on October 27, 2014, 11:31:59 AM
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Boulez was conducting Mahler as early as the 1960s. It was his adoption of Bruckner and, a decade later, Janacek that really showed that the man had mellowed.
A
Boulez Bruckner cycle! 0:)
Quote from: Brian on October 27, 2014, 01:41:38 PM
Okay so give some examples of trying to suppress other people's music. I'm not a hardcore Boulezian; I've learned a lot in this conversation. So, I really want to know the examples, just out of curiosity.
I remember reading some time ago an interview with the late Jean Françaix in which he said that his music stopped being performed in Paris after "a certain gentleman" started to be important there. It is not incontrovertible evidence, and it could just be an embittered old man speaking, but the perception has always existed that you wouldn't get state support, or, for that matter, performances of your music, if you didn't "toe the line" that was largely attributed at the time to this
certain monsieur's policies. I also read somewhere that the first time an orchestral work by Dutilleux was performed at one of the main concert venues in Paris was during a tour of the CBSO, led by Sakari Oramo. I remember wondering how that was posible, and the thought came into my mind of the famous story about Boulez turning his back on Dutilleux in the 50s because he had written a symphony, or something like that.
I heard somewhere that he had had some kind of falling out with Jean Barraqué, who was his contemporary and, so to speak, composed "on the same side of the fence". Back in the day, both he and Boulez were serious contenders in the French avant-garde, but today Barraqué is half-forgotten. It's true that he committed suicide in 1973, but all the works that made Boulez's reputation and are considered classics today date from before that year. I don't know if Boulez, despite having conducted some of Barraqué's music during his Domaine Musical days, has done much in subsequent years to keep alive the memory of his colleague.
There is also the urban legend that one of the conditions Boulez demanded in his recording contract with Columbia was that the Robert Craft recordings of Schoenberg be kept permanently out of print, so that he would become the absolute reference. Again, it's all hearsay, but I'm still waiting for a CD reissue of those old vinyl sets, so, as the Italians say,
"se non è vero è ben trovato".
Quote from: Ken B on October 27, 2014, 01:38:52 PM
The claims keep shifting.
He never did that.
He was young when he did that.
After he was young he was being intellectual when he did that.
When he wasn't being an intellectual but a music director he was entitled to do that when he did that.
Hey, his music is great so it doesn't matter he did that.
Keep knocking down those strawmen, you're doing great.
I don't think one can argue that Boulez tried to 'suppress' any music, apart from e.g. the
Trois psalmodies, quartet for four Ondes Martenot,
Symphonie concertante... >.> It might help to think of musical trends as akin to fashion trends. Boulez did much to make serialism fashionable for a while, at least in certain circles: fashionable to write, to praise, or to mock depending on one's inclinations. (Stravinsky did all three.) Sort of like, say, sneakers. Suddenly everyone's wearing sneakers and, even if you think they're ugly and will never match
your shoes for style, you might be tempted to try them on just to see what they're like. Or you might feel a bit lonely because no one's commenting on your shoes anymore, they're not cool enough. But in a short time, sneakers won't be such the rage anymore. There'll be some new kind of shoe, maybe crocs or something, and
that's what everyone will be talking about instead. And so forth. And if you don't like any of the new kinds of shoes, you can just keep wearing your old ones until they become 'retro' or 'vintage' or something and you feel part of the fold again.
Similarly... well, like it or not, the things Boulez and Stockhausen and Leibowitz etc were saying in the 1950s and early 60s evidently struck a chord with a lot of people. Maybe it was a tonic chord and they felt they'd come home to the true aesthetic, maybe it was a jangly dissonant chord that really ruffled their feathers, but either way, serialism was in fashion. Then look at the 70s and early 80s. Boulez, Stockhausen and Leibowitz have retreated to conducting, whatever the hell planet Stockhausen lives on, and conducting, respectively. Most of the other Darmstadt composers (Ligeti, Kagel, etc) have moved on to new aesthetics (like those sneakers with wheels and flashing lights in. I used to love those). They're all 'establishment' now. The new avant-garde, the composers who are all the rage, who'd never be caught dead in a bowtie or a music faculty, are people like Glass and Reich and Riley. Are you going to argue that the minimalists were trying to 'suppress' the serialists, that Bang on a Can hates freedom by refusing to program any Babbitt or Wuorinen etc? Be reasonable. Boulez didn't do worse to Françaix than Glass did to Boulez, insults aside*: made him appear unfashionable. Not the worst fate in the world.
*
yeah ok, Boulez insults lots of people, I'll give you that. So he's a Dorothy Parker wannabe. I think everyone is, secretly.
I think there's a gradual change between the Darmstadt-era Boulez, who was essentially projecting a non-stop "my hammer's bigger than your hammer" battle with Stockhausen and Nono, and the Boulez of the last 30 years. His views may not have changed much, and the catty remarks never totally stopped, but the more recent Boulez doesn't seem to have felt the need to constantly go to war with the rest of the planet. Perhaps he became more at peace with himself, and more willing to accept his own failings? Certainly it's easy to find anecdotes involving musicians who've worked with him in the last 20 years and who seem to think very warmly of him.
The near-20-year-period between Marteau and Rituel during which he didn't "finish" a single work (even Pli selon pli got rewritten again and again) seems to point to a certain lack of confidence; perhaps conducting suited him better than composition, because you can't go back and rewrite a concert you've already given. It's certainly easy for me to believe that obsessively tinkering with works he'd already finished may have deprived us of some significant compositions.
I've a feeling he probably will be remembered more as a conductor than a composer; but I do think the best of his works (amongst which I would number Marteau, Pli selon pli, Rituel and sur Incises) have qualities enough to ensure that they won't be entirely forgotten.
Quote from: ritter on October 27, 2014, 12:12:10 PM
Well, then let's say its like expecting Toscanini to have programmed Mahler regularly at the NBC ;) .
I really don't see why Boulez is considered to have turned the NYPO into his private fiefdom....he surely didn't conduct what he didn't like (well, I know there was Brahms once at least--some people will be able to say: " I saw Boulez do Brahms, and I've lived to tell it" ;D ), but that is natural in any M.D., and it may be interesting to see the orchestra's programming during those years. I'm sure Tchaikovsky, and Copland, and...you name it, were presented by guest conductors...
Exactly. If you actually look at the Philharmonic archives to see what Boulez conducted as MD, his performances included the Meistersinger Prelude (10 times), Till Eulenspiegel (6), the Schumann 4th (4), the Schubert C major (3), Pictures at an Exhibition (9), Mendelssohn's Italian (6), the Mahler 9th (10), Mathis der Maler (2), the Dvorak Cello Concerto (2), Beethoven's 7th (10), Beethoven's 2nd (14), excerpts from Berlioz's Romeo (25!); and some Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Brahms symphonies and concertos, and Prokofiev piano concertos. I couldn't afford many performances back in those days, but I distinctly remember him doing the Schumann Scenes from Faust. Of course there were also the usual suspects like Bartok, Berg, Debussy, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, and Webern, but comparatively little of his own work, and naturally plenty of guest conductors to handle the Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov. Whatever Boulez's feelings towards any of this music might have been, this is hardly using the NY Phil podium as a private fiefdom.
Quote from: edward on October 27, 2014, 06:22:22 PMIt's certainly easy for me to believe that obsessively tinkering with works he'd already finished may have deprived us of some significant compositions.
Yes, as far as Boulez-the-composer goes, I feel like each revision he makes to a piece makes that piece less interesting, and in general he sort of screwed himself over with the hardline insecure hypermasculine attitude of his 20s etc, after which he evidently felt he couldn't just turn around and write a piece like
Dérive 2 that was hardly serial at all and actually sounds quite a bit like Dutilleux, because he'd lose face. (And I think that sort of thing is much more what he 'wanted' to write than things like the 3rd Sonata, but that's conjecture.) His deadly sin is definitely pride, or maybe sexual repression (that is one of the seven deadly sins, right?). If he'd been humbler, he probably would have written more music, admitted he was wrong more often, insulted fewer people and probably been a good deal less influential. So we get what we get: a conductor who composed, was controversial and influenced musical fashions. Maybe that'll make him the Wilhelm Furtwängler of 2064. Who knows.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 27, 2014, 06:30:11 PM
Schumann Scenes from Faust
I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but didn't he do quite a few other 19th-century rarities? I know he programmed Liszt's
Legend of St Elizabeth in one of his early seasons.
Quote from: Abuelo Igor on October 27, 2014, 05:03:51 PM
There is also the urban legend that one of the conditions Boulez demanded in his recording contract with Columbia was that the Robert Craft recordings of Schoenberg be kept permanently out of print, so that he would become the absolute reference. Again, it's all hearsay, but I'm still waiting for a CD reissue of those old vinyl sets, so, as the Italians say, "se non è vero è ben trovato".
The Craft recordings have been reissued on Naxos (same as his Stravinsky recordings and should be readily available as individual CDs or in the form of two sets(Vol. 1 and Vol. 2)
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 27, 2014, 06:43:21 PM
The Craft recordings have been reissued on Naxos (same as his Stravinsky recordings and should be readily available as individual CDs or in the form of two sets(Vol. 1 and Vol. 2)
Have they been reissued, or did Craft re-do the works in his old age? Sony did reissue Craft's Brahms-Schoenberg Quartet, in a blazing white-hot performance with he CSO, but though the younger Craft was rarely given much rehearsal time, he did some splendid work for Columbia in the 1960s, such as his Pierrot Lunaire, Erwartung, Der Wein, and more. It's fashionable to dismiss his Webern set, but I don't know any better rendition of the Bach Ricercare, just for one.
Quote from: edward on October 27, 2014, 06:41:55 PM
I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but didn't he do quite a few other 19th-century rarities? I know he programmed Liszt's Legend of St Elizabeth in one of his early seasons.
Correct, in September 1971.
Quote from: amw on October 27, 2014, 06:20:57 PM
I don't think one can argue that Boulez tried to 'suppress' any music, apart from e.g. the Trois psalmodies
Do you mean the Messiaen
Trois Petites Liturgies? I know he didn't like the tonal music of 1940s-Messiaen, but how did he try to suppress it?
Very interesting post, too!
Quote from: EigenUser on October 28, 2014, 12:10:51 AM
Do you mean the Messiaen Trois Petites Liturgies? I know he didn't like the tonal music of 1940s-Messiaen, but how did he try to suppress it?
Very interesting post, too!
No, I think he means the
Trois psalmodies for piano, an early work (1945) by Boulez that the composer withdrew from his catalogue. Actually, all the works
amw mentions are by Boulez himself (all withdrawn or lost)...
Quote from: ritter on October 27, 2014, 12:12:10 PM
Well, then let's say its like expecting Toscanini to have programmed Mahler regularly at the NBC ;) .
I really don't see why Boulez is considered to have turned the NYPO into his private fiefdom....
Let's call that phrase a mediæval-tinged overstatement, and say that I took my cue from the gentleman whose remark mentioned Madame Guillotine.
At bottom, I agree completely that (a) Art is not served if the musician performs music which he does not himself like; and (b) the fault really belongs to the New York Philharmonic for hiring such a fastidious music director.
I shall say, too, that it is to his credit that he saw light sufficiently, in spite of his avowed and enduring distaste (his shtick still relies in part on the ritual hand-wringing over those people -- those benighted people -- who persist in a desire for music dating before 1952) that he consented to conduct (and ultimately found it to some degree congenial) 19th-c. music. But that is not really what I had in view.
From their inception, American orchestras have always been primarily an organ for presenting European music. That in itself is morally neutral, of course. Under
Lenny's direction, the
NY Phil adopted a more consistent mission of presenting the work of American composers.
If the combination of that culturally important precedent, with the appointment of one of the world's leading avant-garde composers as the orchestra's music director, gave the younger generation of US composers an (I think, understandable) hope, the reversion of the New York orchestra to a "no Americans need apply" club was, in any sober judgment, a major disappointment.
I don't think it would have been a matter of expecting
Boulez magically to convert the band into a new music ensemble. I think it was only the natural expectation that a living composer would not roll back the advances made under
Bernstein's directorship.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 27, 2014, 06:43:21 PM
The Craft recordings have been reissued on Naxos (same as his Stravinsky recordings and should be readily available as individual CDs or in the form of two sets(Vol. 1 and Vol. 2)
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 27, 2014, 07:05:57 PM
Have they been reissued, or did Craft re-do the works in his old age?
It is my understanding that the Naxos series re-issues newer recordings he made in the 90s for Koch Classics. His original recordings for Columbia, apart from the disc of orchestral transcriptions referred to above, remain in limbo. You can find the original vinyl sets on Amazon.com, but some of them fetch, let us say, interesting prices...
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 27, 2014, 07:05:57 PM
. . . Sony did reissue Craft's Brahms-Schoenberg Quartet, in a blazing white-hot performance with he CSO, but though the younger Craft was rarely given much rehearsal time, he did some splendid work for Columbia in the 1960s, such as his Pierrot Lunaire, Erwartung, Der Wein, and more. It's fashionable to dismiss his Webern set, but I don't know any better rendition of the Bach Ricercare, just for one.
By curious chance, a fellow composer proudly showed me his boxed LP of the
Webern set just the day before yesterday.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 28, 2014, 02:46:23 AM
Let's call that phrase a mediæval-tinged overstatement, and say that I took my cue from the gentleman whose remark mentioned Madame Guillotine.
...yes, the guillotine, while we
triocoteuses placidly continue to knit next to the scaffold.... :D
I think your post puts things very much in perspective,
Karl. :) I can understand that US composers felt let down by Boulez, given the expectations his appointment had raised...but I also think he himself had done nothing to raise such expectations, and can therefore not be accused of "betraying" anyone.
The issue is, Boulez is blamed for many sins, of action
and omission. If he attacked composers and works which he disliked (which he certainly did--the Shostakoviches and Henzes and so forth...) he was being destructive. If he didn't perform the works of others (Jean Barraqué was mentioned above), once again, he was being mean (one could extend this sin of omission to the work of Maderna, but Boulez gave some excuse or other for not preforming him after his death). But the we have the case of Elliott Carter, who was hugely promoted by Boulez, and we cannot deny that the frenchman's contribution to the acceptance of many major names of music into the standard repertoire (we need not go much further than Webern) is huge. Some people tend to highlight the negative aspects of his behaviour, some--includiung myself--tend to stress the positive facets of it. It seems both "sides" cannot agree, but one thing is for sure: still today, almost 40 years after it ended, Boulez's tenure at the NYPO is being discussed (passionately, at times). Not a mean feat... ;)
Aye, Carter (unquestionably a first-rate composer) is conspicuous by his singularity, there 8)
Quote from: ritter on October 28, 2014, 04:08:33 AM
I think your post puts things very much in perspective, Karl. :) I can understand that US composers felt let down by Boulez, given the expectations his appointment had raised...but I also think he himself had done nothing to raise such expectations, and can therefore not be accused of "betraying" anyone.
I agree;
betrayal is not at all the right word. And of course, I agree that (for all the intellectual unfairness which
Boulez has committed over the years) it were unfair to make out the whole of the disappointing development to be
his fault, somehow. I certainly do not
hate Boulez; there is music he has made which requires no defense, and that is all that will matter over time; and if I find that I cannot much admire him as a person, an impartial observer would own that that is but a reasonable perspective.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 28, 2014, 04:18:26 AM
Aye, Carter (unquestionably a first-rate composer) is conspicuous by his singularity, there 8)
And then there was Crumb's
Star Child...a stunning work (but I've never read any comments by Boulez on what ¡he thought of this music ??? )
Quote from: Abuelo Igor on October 28, 2014, 03:53:00 AM
It is my understanding that the Naxos series re-issues newer recordings he made in the 90s for Koch Classics. His original recordings for Columbia, apart from the disc of orchestral transcriptions referred to above, remain in limbo. You can find the original vinyl sets on Amazon.com, but some of them fetch, let us say, interesting prices...
Well, there's also the Gesualdo oddity, the Monterverdi
Vespers coupled with some Bach cantatas, and a disc of Mozart (including the
Gran Partita)... But yes (apart from Stravinsky, of course), none of Craft's core repertoire...
Well, Naxos did license the Craft Webern from 1957, so I guess there's some hope there, but Naxos hasn't been the cheapest choice available for some time now. I think I would really spring for a "Complete Robert Craft recordings for Columbia Records" box set from Sony, that could be had for a song not very long after release. Well, let's dream on...
Quote from: ritter on October 28, 2014, 04:28:58 AM
(apart from Stravinsky, of course)
I know that folk wisdom credits Craft for most of the hard work behind the later recordings released under Igor's name, but, listening to the rehearsal excerpts included on the Sony set, Stravinsky didn't strike me as a conductor who couldn't communicate to the musicians exactly what he wanted.
OK, off-topic over. Back to Pierre. :)
Quote from: Abuelo Igor on October 28, 2014, 04:37:02 AM
OK, off-topic over. Back to Pierre. :)
OK, slightly more on-topic, and to come back full circle, so to speak, what oddly enough
has been reissued on CD (albeit in an obscure, difficult to find label), is Craft's recording of
Le Marteau sans maître :D :
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0002/998/MI0002998364.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I hope I may give that a listen at some point.
Those remarks, though sharp as they are have a good dose of mythology. The "USELESS" sound bite is a typical example. Deeper reading into the mindset and motivation of the composer would show that his approach is one that concerns itself with the historicism and the philosophy of history he adopted from Souvtchinsky and Adorno--mostly reflecting that there is a dialectical relationship between history and the individual, in which history challenges the individual and the individual is charged with facing that challenge and overcoming it. Boulez's articles from the late 40s onwards often express the duality between evolution and revolution in the way music progresses, and his views are much more towards the idea of evolution rather than revolution, even if that evolution is punctuated with periods of instability and discontinuity.
It is in this context that he saw serialism as a historic necessity, since it responded to the conflicts within both twelve-tone and neo-classical composition. It is worth noting that "serialism" here is understood much more broadly than the more narrow categories of "integral serialism" or "strict twelve-tone row serialism", which in reality had a very brief lifespan--the composers toyed with the idea and soon rejected it once they realized it was far too restrictive and inexpressive. The "USELESS" epithet is effectively about those who refused to acknowledge that serialism was a natural historical outcome in this concept of continuous evolution, whom he accused of holding an anti-historical position since they preferred to think of serialism as random dabbling with formulas and processes. The contributions of those composers to the dialectical and historically-conscious advancement of music were, in that sense, useless.
The notion that Boulez held theory up at all costs is misguided. His "process" is more of a rigorous method whereby every result, every note, rhythm and dynamic value, every figure is questioned by the composer at the moment of writing (hence the concept of écriture, which he and others expanded upon) and the artistic, expressive and intentional value of every sign is thoroughly considered as it is laid down. The act of writing becomes an integral part of the act of composing--the composer is certainly not copying or following what a mechanistic, formulaic or automatic process is telling him to do. This painstaking artisanal activity explains the low output of the composer; the unwavering dialectical approach explains why his works are revised numerous times, and casts away any doubts about his confidence--all his works, at all stages of "completion" are valid representations of the vision of the work of art he intended to create. They are simply different iterations, different perspectives over the same object, which might have the characteristic of being inherently in flux. Boulez's take on the concept of the open work and the aspects he experimented with in e.g. Pli selon pli, Rituel and the Third Sonata provides additional insight into this facet of his ideas and philosophy.
Perhaps that "painstaking artisanal activity" is in fact holding theory up at all costs?
Many thanks, Petrarch, for this remarkably insightful post. Whatever one thinks of Boulez or his music, this helps better to understand his outlook and motivations.
Quote from: NorthNYMark on October 31, 2014, 06:54:03 PM
Many thanks, Petrarch, for this remarkably insightful post. Whatever one thinks of Boulez or his music, this helps better to understand his outlook and motivations.
Precis: dogmatic narrow-minded asshole.
Quote from: NorthNYMark on October 31, 2014, 06:54:03 PM
Many thanks, Petrarch, for this remarkably insightful post. Whatever one thinks of Boulez or his music, this helps better to understand his outlook and motivations.
+1 ... great post indeed, that sheds much light on the thought of an undisputably gigantic figure of music :)
Quote from: petrarch on October 31, 2014, 06:27:33 PM
Those remarks, though sharp as they are have a good dose of mythology. The "USELESS" sound bite is a typical example. Deeper reading into the mindset and motivation of the composer would show that his approach is one that concerns itself with the historicism and the philosophy of history he adopted from Souvtchinsky and Adorno--mostly reflecting that there is a dialectical relationship between history and the individual, in which history challenges the individual and the individual is charged with facing that challenge and overcoming it. Boulez's articles from the late 40s onwards often express the duality between evolution and revolution in the way music progresses, and his views are much more towards the idea of evolution rather than revolution, even if that evolution is punctuated with periods of instability and discontinuity.
It is in this context that he saw serialism as a historic necessity, since it responded to the conflicts within both twelve-tone and neo-classical composition. It is worth noting that "serialism" here is understood much more broadly than the more narrow categories of "integral serialism" or "strict twelve-tone row serialism", which in reality had a very brief lifespan--the composers toyed with the idea and soon rejected it once they realized it was far too restrictive and inexpressive. The "USELESS" epithet is effectively about those who refused to acknowledge that serialism was a natural historical outcome in this concept of continuous evolution, whom he accused of holding an anti-historical position since they preferred to think of serialism as random dabbling with formulas and processes. The contributions of those composers to the dialectical and historically-conscious advancement of music were, in that sense, useless.
The notion that Boulez held theory up at all costs is misguided. His "process" is more of a rigorous method whereby every result, every note, rhythm and dynamic value, every figure is questioned by the composer at the moment of writing (hence the concept of écriture, which he and others expanded upon) and the artistic, expressive and intentional value of every sign is thoroughly considered as it is laid down. The act of writing becomes an integral part of the act of composing--the composer is certainly not copying or following what a mechanistic, formulaic or automatic process is telling him to do. This painstaking artisanal activity explains the low output of the composer; the unwavering dialectical approach explains why his works are revised numerous times, and casts away any doubts about his confidence--all his works, at all stages of "completion" are valid representations of the vision of the work of art he intended to create. They are simply different iterations, different perspectives over the same object, which might have the characteristic of being inherently in flux. Boulez's take on the concept of the open work and the aspects he experimented with in e.g. Pli selon pli, Rituel and the Third Sonata provides additional insight into this facet of his ideas and philosophy.
Your entire post well taken. The Respectful Opposition points out that, where there may be error, it is a matter of exaggeration, not of being outright mistaken 8)
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 31, 2014, 06:49:01 PM
Perhaps that "painstaking artisanal activity" is in fact holding theory up at all costs?
Which theory would that be?
There, let me fix that for you:
Quote from: Ken B on October 31, 2014, 07:07:22 PM
Precis: dogmatic narrow-minded asshole. [Citation needed] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)
Gladly, we can all take your point and see that what you have to say on the subject of music is much broader than your pithy dislikes of Boulez--and not confuse your entire view of music with a bunch of narrow-minded allegations and attempts to suppress Boulez's music (
Boulez delenda est, as you proclaimed for a while in your avatar).
Quote from: karlhenning on November 01, 2014, 05:25:36 AM
where there may be error, it is a matter of exaggeration, not of being outright mistaken 8)
Absolutely.
To really appreciate the mellowing out of the maître one only has to see him in action in his masterclasses in conducting, in the
Boulez XXe siècle documentaries, or go through the reports of positive, warm interactions a variety of people in the milieu had with him. This of course doesn't mean he wasn't acidic and controversial, which is undeniable, but it differentiates between person and persona.
And I wonder if the "certain gentleman in Paris" would indeed be Boulez, since he moved to Baden Baden in the late 50s.
I just noticed: Where I mention Rituel in my post I really meant to mention Éclat. The latter is a much better example of tackling the aesthetics of the open form.
Quote from: petrarch on November 01, 2014, 07:20:54 AM
There, let me fix that for you:
Gladly, we can all take your point and see that what you have to say on the subject of music is much broader than your pithy dislikes of Boulez--and not confuse your entire view of music with a bunch of narrow-minded allegations and attempts to suppress Boulez's music (Boulez delenda est, as you proclaimed for a while in your avatar).
Citations? When I said Boulez and crew expressed contempt for audiences you asked for one. I supplied one, and you said you already had it. So I am assuming you know the relevant facts.
Ideology does not justify bad behavior.
Quote from: petrarch on November 01, 2014, 07:35:18 AM
Absolutely.
To really appreciate the mellowing out of the maître one only has to see him in action in his masterclasses in conducting, in the Boulez XXe siècle documentaries, or go through the reports of positive, warm interactions a variety of people in the milieu had with him. This of course doesn't mean he wasn't acidic and controversial, which is undeniable, but it differentiates between person and persona.
And I wonder if the "certain gentleman in Paris" would indeed be Boulez, since he moved to Baden Baden in the late 50s.
If he mellowed out then logically there was a period when he wasn't mellow.
Person and persona? I should overlook George Wallace's 'persona' as governor because it was insincere politicking, he really wasn't that bigoted?
I am talking about actions.
Quote from: James on November 01, 2014, 08:04:31 AM
... He is a great musician.
Well, perhaps not as great as Henri Sauguet, don't you think? :D
Quote from: petrarch on November 01, 2014, 07:11:32 AM
Which theory would that be?
The theory you describe in some detail in the rest of that last paragraph.
Quote from: James on November 01, 2014, 08:42:40 AM
He isn't describing "a theory" .. more Boulez's ongoing creative process, and his extremely self-critical nature.
It is both process and theory, which is why it is fair to say he upholds theory at all costs.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 01, 2014, 08:35:30 AM
The theory you describe in some detail in the rest of that last paragraph.
No, what I describe is a method.
Quote from: Ken B on November 01, 2014, 07:54:42 AM
Citations? When I said Boulez and crew expressed contempt for audiences you asked for one. I supplied one, and you said you already had it. So I am assuming you know the relevant facts.
Ideology does not justify bad behavior.
Ah contempt, that ultimate sin. Pillory him!
If there truly was generalized contempt for audiences he wouldn't have been so keen to bring contemporary music to the public through the Petit Marigny and the Domaine Musical.
But I suspect you are basing your criticism on some sarcastic comment about intolerant audiences... Webern did it, Varèse did it, Stravinsky did it. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be riotous premieres.
Quote from: petrarch on November 01, 2014, 12:14:59 PM
No, what I describe is a method.
Method. So in other words when Jeffrey calls it a process and a theory, he's right.
Quote from: Ken B on November 01, 2014, 12:39:16 PM
Method. So in other words when Jeffrey calls it a process and a theory, he's right.
Nothing like self-imposed blinders to make an argument. Grab a dictionary.
Quote from: petrarch on November 01, 2014, 12:42:13 PM
Nothing like self-imposed blinders to make an argument. Grab a dictionary.
I have noticed that while Jeffrey and I talk about Boulez, you talk about ... me.
Quote from: James on November 01, 2014, 12:46:08 PM
Jeffrey knows shit about Boulez & his music (obviously). You fall into that camp also.
And another who can summon nothing better than name-calling.
Here's a tip. If we are debating topic X and your "points" are about me, you've lost.
Quote from: Ken B on November 01, 2014, 12:49:20 PM
And another who can summon nothing better than name-calling.
Here's a tip. If we are debating topic X and your "points" are about me, you've lost.
(* chortle *) (sorry Karl! ;))
My, we are self-centered aren't we?
Quote from: petrarch on November 01, 2014, 12:52:15 PM
(* chortle *) (sorry Karl! ;))
My, we are self-centered aren't we?
I guess so. When someone addresses me directly, as both you and James did, I assume they are talking to me. I've struggled with that all my life.
Quote from: Ken B on November 01, 2014, 12:57:36 PM
I guess so. When someone addresses me directly, as both you and James did, I assume they are talking to me. I've struggled with that all my life.
Must be a new practice in rhetoric and debate: If you address your interlocutor, you are talking about him; if you talk about him you lost the debate; ergo, you must not ever address your interlocutor otherwise the debate is "lost". I'll keep that in mind, thanks for the insight.
From a distance far from bullet range, I will make a completely benign comment (while listening to Le Marteau..., I might add): Like him or not, the idea that Boulez (or anyone) can create such controversy even here on GMG surely must say much about his legacy.
Quote from: EigenUser on November 01, 2014, 01:30:43 PM
From a distance far from bullet range, I will make a completely benign comment (while listening to Le Marteau..., I might add): Like him or not, the idea that Boulez (or anyone) can create such controversy even here on GMG surely must say much about his legacy.
Indeed,
EigenUser! A gigantic figure in the history of music...
Quote from: EigenUser on November 01, 2014, 01:20:18 PM
Boulez Le Marteau sans Maitre.
I enjoy it so far, but not as much as some of his other work I've heard. I still need to hear Pli Selon Pli.
[asin]B0006OS5YI[/asin]
This work grows on you...it offers IMHO a unique sound world, one that in its complexity is full of poetry and sensuousness...no one who has listened to the final movement,
"Bel édifice et les pressentiments", double , can say there's no lyricism in Boulez...the way the music disintegrates, with the humming lines of the mezzo, the flute and the percussion...simply spellbinding! And in live concert, the effect is even stronger...
Quote from: petrarch on November 01, 2014, 12:42:13 PM
Nothing like self-imposed blinders to make an argument. Grab a dictionary.
Catch one!
Quote from: OED
Method, noun
a. More generally: a way of doing anything, esp. according to a defined and regular plan; a mode of procedure in any activity, business, etc.
That reads pretty close to applying a theory
methodically, as a
process.
Quote from: North Star on November 01, 2014, 01:55:56 PM
Catch one!
That reads pretty close to applying a theory methodically, as a process.
Indeed, hence my question,
which theory? The point was that there is
no one particular theory, but something always evolving, as it suits the aesthetic needs and vision. The idea that Boulez follows the "one true theory to rule them all" is a misconception.
Le marteau is great; no one can take that away from him 8)
Quote from: EigenUser on November 01, 2014, 01:30:43 PM
From a distance far from bullet range, I will make a completely benign comment (while listening to Le Marteau..., I might add): Like him or not, the idea that Boulez (or anyone) can create such controversy even here on GMG surely must say much about his legacy.
Indeed. Nor you can you write the history of Soviet music and ignore Zhdanov. A titan for sure.
Quote from: petrarch on November 01, 2014, 12:14:59 PM
No, what I describe is a method.
Perhaps I am led astray by the impersonal tone you used: you kept referring to "the composer" and not to "Boulez". But as written you describe both Boulez's personal process but also a general theory of how musical composition works.
[I am referring to the last paragraph of reply 884. Cut and paste is near impossible on this tablet, which is why I am not directly quoting you.]
But:
Quote from: petrarch on November 01, 2014, 02:15:03 PM
Indeed, hence my question, which theory? The point was that there is no one particular theory, but something always evolving, as it suits the aesthetic needs and vision. The idea that Boulez follows the "one true theory to rule them all" is a misconception.
The idea that "something is always evolving, etc." is itself a theory.
This thread is proving very enlightening... :o
We have learned that, apart from being a horrible person, Boulez is dogmatic and narrow-minded because he applies a method of composing to his own work that involves extreme laboriousness and self-criticism. But no, that is upholding theory at all costs...
Furthermore, his stature is similar to that of Zhdanov, who I didn't know had made achievements akin to composing Le Marteau sans maître or conducting the Ring in Bayreuth.
And the last word on Boulez are the comments of an embittered second-rate and half-forgotten composer (who is being quoted without apparently having heard much--if any--of his music)...
Wow, I've really reassessed my opinion on Boulez after reading all this irrefutable evidence... :D
Regards,
Hey, Zhdanov wasn't that bad. He just wanted to get Soviet composers to write nice, tuneful music that people could enjoy, instead of all that gloomy overdone stuff like the Shostakovich 4th. Whereas Boulez tried to force everyone to listen to awful music that no one could ever like (except a tiny group of pseudo-intellectual poseurs who don't actually enjoy the music but think it makes them appear more sophisticated) and to destroy all the composers who wrote music that people actually wanted to listen to. All in pursuit of his own personal fame, because of his own inability to write proper music, he decided no one else should be able to either! My toddler could write better 'compositions' than Le marteau sans maître, but thanks to Boulez keeping the real composers down for a century and more, all the new music audiences go "Wow! Such innovative! Much complex! Very technique!"; either because they're brainwashed fools, or because they know that if they admit it's all rubbish and they'd rather hear some Ludovico Einaudi, Boulez will ensure they are fired from their jobs, become a laughingstock in their social circles, are abandoned by their lovers usw. Meanwhile take the case of my old professor at Slippery Rock University, Bob Williams, none of whose 174 symphonies have received more than a single performance in spite of any one of them containing more musical substance than all the combined œuvre of Boulez, Stockhausen, Cage, and the guy who wrote the 'Exorcist' soundtrack. And let's not even talk about Boulez's connections with the CIA. They're hardly comparable, Zhdanov just destroyed a few careers, Boulez is trying to destroy musical taste itself. The very concept of music is under attack, even worse than the war on Christmas, and with the tacit approval of world governments. WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!
I keep reassessing (after this additional irrefutable evidence) ??? ...
:D :D :D
Boulez also took my parking spot. It was clearly marked with my name on it. I don't know if it was really Boulez but the car had IRCAM licence plates and a handicapped sign even though Boulez is clearly not handicapped. What a prick.
Quote from: amw on November 02, 2014, 01:36:25 AM
Boulez also took my parking spot. It was clearly marked with my name on it. I don't know if it was really Boulez but the car had IRCAM licence plates and a handicapped sign even though Boulez is clearly not handicapped. What a prick.
Your forgetting the role he played in the collapse of Lehman Brothers..I read somewhere that was all
his doing...
Any good recordings of Bob Williams' symphonies you can recommend,
amw? ;D
Boulez is an incredible musician with a secure place in history, but you must admit that he cuts a terrific villain figure, even if, much as it happens with Spielberg among film aficionados, he is frequently made into a scapegoat for everything some people don't like about the current state of the art and that is, with some reason or without it, attributed to his supposedly all-powerful influence. I am clearly fascinated by the complexity of his character: he has done a lot of good for music as conductor and composer, but I cannot summon much sympathy for him in his public, political persona. I guess I'm with Karl there: music in general wouldn't be the same without him, more for better than for worse, but I find him less than unimpeachable in some respects.
I cannot help but see him as an embodiment of the intolerant and sectarian mindset that has been plaguing the new music scene for the last 50 years of so, and as a ruthless careerist that, much as Truffaut did in the cinema, has reaped the benefits of his image as an intellectually fierce enfant terrible to get rid of the competition and become a respected figure of the establishment. But, reviewing his accomplishments, you get the frequent impression that it was worth it and that he probably had more talent and better ideas than much of the competition. And, anyway, for a "Composer discussion" thread, all the hate shown here has precious little to do with his composing. He clearly has that "man I love to hate" appeal.
Am I the only one appalled by Ken B's comparison of Boulez to George Wallace (an openly racist figure and supporter of racial segregation) and Zhdanov (who represented a state that persecuted musicians). Boulez might have been rude, and he may have had some influence on which composers could get state support in Paris, but he never did anything to stop other kinds of music from being written. There was no state crackdown on composers exploring Neo-classical or Neo-Romantic music, and both of those styles continued to be performed across France.
You're not, CRCulver. Most people here are reasonable and admire Boulez for his wonderful achievements, even if some do not like his music, and/or his conducting or at least some of his recordings. This is not the point. There are 2 or 3 crazy conspirationists who think their opinion has some value. What they're saying is, as I already said, unappropriate, insulting and quite ridiculous. But who is really going to argue endlessly with them ?
Quote from: CRCulver on November 02, 2014, 03:39:09 AM
Am I the only one appalled by Ken B's comparison of Boulez to George Wallace (an openly racist figure and supporter of racial segregation) and Zhdanov (who represented a state that persecuted musicians). Boulez might have been rude, and he may have had some influence on which composers could get state support in Paris, but he never did anything to stop other kinds of music from being written. There was no state crackdown on composers exploring Neo-classical or Neo-Romantic music, and both of those styles continued to be performed across France.
I did not compare Boulez to Wallace. I compared the excuse-making for Boulez to the excuse-making for Wallace.
Wallace himself did eventually say segregation was wrong and apologized for his acts.
Zhdanov helped destroy lives and families. The worst you can say about Boulez does not come close to that (well, except for taking parking spaces) and therefore the excuses, so called, are not comparable.
He may have stifled some careers, but that is speculative, and he helped impose an arid orthodoxy that led music into an intellectual dead end and killed off popular interest in "classical" music, but he was far from alone in that.
And like all other composers his personal flaws have nothing to do with the musical value of his compositions.
I have no quarrel or disdain for anyone who admires or enjoys Boulez's music. I think the ongoing conversation from the opposing side, which seems like nothing more than opportunist gut-busting, really need to pack it up and move it out. This thread shouldn't be a place where people trash a composer, but rather point out the good things he/she have done throughout their career. Make no mistake about it, Boulez is a master musician and the fact that he's still raising eyebrows, including blood pressure, speaks volumes of the kind of influence he as had on the current state of classical music.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 02, 2014, 06:06:44 AM
He may have stifled some careers, but that is speculative, and he helped impose an arid orthodoxy that led music into an intellectual dead end and killed off popular interest in "classical" music, but he was far from alone in that.
Considering that even during Boulez's heyday, the vast majority of new music being written was tonal, and Boulez's avant-garde was a fairly small niche that most classical audiences never got a chance to hear, blaming him for the decline of popular interest in classical music is very off the mark. There were cultural and market forces at work much, much vaster than the impact of a Darmstadt ideologue.
Quote from: CRCulver on November 02, 2014, 06:13:11 AM
Considering that even during Boulez's heyday, the vast majority of new music being written was tonal, and Boulez's avant-garde was a fairly small niche that most classical audiences never got a chance to hear, blaming him for the decline of popular interest in classical music is very off the mark. There were cultural and market forces at work much, much vaster than the impact of a Darmstadt ideologue.
Indeed?
Thinking back to my younger days (the 70s and 80s) I can not remember hearing about or hearing a single piece of new music which which was not avant garde, except for film scores. Admittedly that was after Boulez's enfant terrible days...not sure what you consider his heydey....
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 02, 2014, 06:06:44 AM
Wallace himself did eventually say segregation was wrong and apologized for his acts.
Zhdanov helped destroy lives and families. The worst you can say about Boulez does not come close to that (well, except for taking parking spaces) and therefore the excuses, so called, are not comparable.
He may have stifled some careers, but that is speculative, and he helped impose an arid orthodoxy that led music into an intellectual dead end and killed off popular interest in "classical" music, but he was far from alone in that.
And like all other composers his personal flaws have nothing to do with the musical value of his compositions.
It's a reductio Jeffrey. The argument was advanced that Boulez should not be blamed as a person for actions taken as part of a persona. That is a bad argument. An easy way to see this is to apply it in another case. It fails for Wallace, doesn't it? That is my point. It fails.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 02, 2014, 06:25:27 AM
Indeed?
Thinking back to my younger days (the 70s and 80s) I can not remember hearing about or hearing a single piece of new music which which was not avant garde, except for film scores. Admittedly that was after Boulez's enfant terrible days...not sure what you consider his heydey....
Yes, indeed. High modernism had a very limited impact in northern Europe, with a handful of composers exploring e.g. 12-tone music, but everyone else was writing the post-Sibelius Romanticism or Neo-Classicism that is still strongly associated with the region. Nonetheless, the majority of listeners lost interest in new music and is content with the old standard repertoire.
When it comes to the United States, Naxos's American Classics series can acquaint you with a large number of tonal composers who rejected the avant-garde. These are the composers that provincial America gets to hear, since it would be rare for an avant-garde work to be played outside of metropolitan orchestras. But in spite of pursuing maximum accessibility and memorable "tunes", they failed to interest most classical listeners.
In the former Soviet Union, whose contribution to 20th-century classical music tends to be overlooked, the avant-garde was a small crowd facing harrassment from authorities, and most composers were writing in a populist vein. Nonetheless, most classical listeners lost interest in new music and are content with the old standard repertoire.
In England, you had prominent figures like Britten rejecting the avant-garde, and many of Britain's modernists ended up going to the continent, so British audiences got a very limited chance to hear them. And yet, audiences lost interest in new music. Even Britten is a tough sell for many listeners.
Even when composers were keenly interesting in pleasing subscriber audiences, they simply haven't managed to draw a large following. Classical music had started moving to a museum culture in the first half of the 20th century, and radio broadcasting offered a steady diet of new pop music that made it seem like the vital force for new music in our time. By the time Boulez came along with some firebrand comments, all of the cultural shift was already well in place.
As far as the US goes, I think it was more a case of provincial America never getting a chance to hear them. Or in fact, to know that they existed.
And I think 1)the love of the intellectual class for the avantgarde had far more influence on what audiences did get to hear than you give it credit for
And
2)if this particular topic is to be continued, it needs its own thread so Pierre can have his own thread back.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 02, 2014, 06:25:27 AM
Indeed?
Thinking back to my younger days (the 70s and 80s) I can not remember hearing about or hearing a single piece of new music which which was not avant garde, except for film scores. Admittedly that was after Boulez's enfant terrible days...not sure what you consider his heydey....
I had a very different experience. As a teenager in the '80s, I remember feeling somewhat inundated with Philip Glass and the like, but never once heard of composers like Carter, Wuorinen, etc. (which I certainly would have preferred). To this day, I feel like Americans are far more likely to have heard minimalism and other "accessible" forms of composition than anything remotely avant-garde (in fact, if you were to ask them, I suspect that a lot of people think that Glass is the height of avant-garde), and they have still pretty much walked away from contemporary classical music. Outside of bigger metropolises, avant-garde works are all but impossible to encounter. From what I can tell, they have almost nothing to do with the public's lack of interest in modern classical music. Most younger (and even middle-aged) people, in my experience, at least, find classical music "boring" rather than too difficult.
What is amusing about this discussion is that it is the same in jazz--people blame the avant-garde of the late '60s for killing off popular interest in jazz, while few of the people who reject jazz have ever even heard that stuff, because audiences were already walking away in droves (and toward rock and r&B) well before the avant-garde really took off, to the extent that it ever even did. Similarly, the problem with the waning popularity of classical has more to do with competing forms of music and entertainment than it does with people being frightened of the avant-garde. It's not as if there is any dearth of opportunities to hook people with pops performances--they just don't really get hooked that way.
Classical music is by now a niche, modern classical (since about 1900) a smaller one and avantgarde smaller still. But all three have a committed audience. I do not think there is anything but a few anecdotes to "prove" the fatal influence of the Darmstadt/Donaueschingen crowd to non-avantgarde 20th century music. Someone like Britten did very well, although he may have been ignored or even despised by the avantgarde.
It may be true that the part of the audience who goes to a concert to hear a Bruckner symphony might be more estranged by pli selon pli than by a symphony of Malcolm Arnold. But it does not really care for the Arnold either, it wants Bruckner and Beethoven and Brahms.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 02, 2014, 12:19:59 PM
Classical music is by now a niche, modern classical (since about 1900) a smaller one and avantgarde smaller still. But all three have a committed audience. I do not think there is anything but a few anecdotes to "prove" the fatal influence of the Darmstadt/Donaueschingen crowd to non-avantgarde 20th century music. Someone like Britten did very well, although he may have been ignored or even despised by the avantgarde.
It may be true that the part of the audience who goes to a concert to hear a Bruckner symphony might be more estranged by pli selon pli than by a symphony of Malcolm Arnold. But it does not really care for the Arnold either, it wants Bruckner and Beethoven and Brahms.
I'd like to know when Classical music has NOT been a niche. I mean, it's not like if in previous centuries the average european peasant went to the opera every once in a while check the latest Lully or Mozart production. And it's not as if there was an alternative to that, at that time there was not much classical music on TV, or radio, or CD or whatever recorded media that did not exist.
The public for classical music has NEVER been as huge as now. Of course, depending on the economic context and other factors, the audience decreases in some countries, but it still globally increases to levels never known previously. And of course there are records, now available at the lowest prices ever.
Classical music might be a niche now, but it has never been so big a niche...
About "modern classical (since 1900)" I'd even disagree more. 20th century music is probably the best served on programs. Of course you hear a lot of Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart, but still, if you combine composers by century, 20th century is surely ahead. I mean even in the recent stats topic (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23709.0.html), you see that among the 10 most played composer, 5 are 20th century composers and represent more performances than 18th or 19th century ones.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 02, 2014, 06:52:36 AMthe love of the intellectual class for the avantgarde had far more influence on what audiences did get to hear than you give it credit for
yes the intelleKKKtual classes push $to¢khau$en to fulfill their NAZI ZIONIST lizardman agenda george rochberg knew the truth which is why the CIA
assassinated him with fluoride in the drinking water!!!
NorthNYMark is a communist sympathizer planted by the illuminati to discredit the REAL AMERICAN philip glass whose achievements in toppling the khmer rouge were SUPPRESSED FROM MSM by the boulezbians and their secret leader lyndon b. johnson, check out my profile for TRUE youtube videos proving this
[anyway... I revisited Structures Ia-c after a long time of not being impressed with it and found that, while I'm still not super impressed, I do prefer it to quite a lot of Boulez's post-1970 work. the severe, stripped-down aesthetic definitely seems to appeal more than the later neo-Ravel stuff, though it's not quite as much my 'thing' as Ustvolskaya or late Xenakis]
With "now" I did not mean to contrast the last 100 years with the 18th century. But I do think that classical music was more central to mainstream western culture between the late 19th century and the 1960s or so.
In any case my main point is the last one. I do not think that avantgarde music is bad for "moderate modern music". Hardly anyone will avoid Arnold because of Boulez' diatribes about "useless" composers not keeping up with the historical necessity of avantgarde composing and those who prefer Bruckner often do not care for neither Arnold's nor Boulez' music.
Quote from: amw on November 02, 2014, 01:02:01 PM
yes the intelleKKKtual classes push $to¢khau$en to fulfill their NAZI ZIONIST lizardman agenda george rochberg knew the truth which is why the CIA assassinated him with fluoride in the drinking water!!!
NorthNYMark is a communist sympathizer planted by the illuminati to discredit the REAL AMERICAN philip glass whose achievements in toppling the khmer rouge were SUPPRESSED FROM MSM by the boulezbians and their secret leader lyndon b. johnson, check out my profile for TRUE youtube videos proving this
[anyway... I revisited Structures Ia-c after a long time of not being impressed with it and found that, while I'm still not super impressed, I do prefer it to quite a lot of Boulez's post-1970 work. the severe, stripped-down aesthetic definitely seems to appeal more than the later neo-Ravel stuff, though it's not quite as much my 'thing' as Ustvolskaya or late Xenakis]
Ok, then here's a simple scenario. For reasons we have discussed orchestras have limited space for new music. If there are, for whatever reason, subsidies (or prestige amongst a certain set) to be had for programming composer X and those like X over Y and those like Y, then X will be programmed. If X turns off audiences, the space for modern music will shrink, or fail to grow. The need for subsidies will lead to more X or more like X. Eventually the well will be poisoned, audiences will learn to avoid modern music.
So the decision about subsidies and pushing X has had an effect on Y.
It need not be subsidies, it could be prestige. It could be a combination.
The net result is the loss of interest in modern music because X has been pushed at the expense of Y.
That is pretty much what had happened by the 70s.
It did not need to. Orchestras in the 50 s played a lot of modern music to paying audiences.
All forms of the fine arts enjoyed great prestige 100 years ago. This includes classical music. The decline in that prestige and influence seems undeniable to me, but it is not attributable to any one effect.
Quote from: Ken B on November 02, 2014, 01:33:40 PM
Ok, then here's a simple scenario.
Which isn't particularly accurate:
- the audience for 'modern' music was not smaller in the 70s than it was in the 50s; in fact Henry Pleasants' famous polemic
The Agony of Modern Music dates from the 50s and claims classical music has been 'dead' since the 20s
- the music 'pushed' by orchestras was not more avant-garde in the 70s than it was in the 50s
- the bulk of contemporary music performed by orchestras since the 1930s or so has always been neoromantic, neoclassical or impressionist
- prizes, awards, other big publicity things etc have tended to go to conservative composers (with occasional nods to 'firebrands' once they've settled down and become establishment), see for instance the history of the Pulitzer Prize for Music
you can also go back to the previous page and read: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5453.msg844426.html#msg844426 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5453.msg844426.html#msg844426), http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5453.msg844530.html#msg844530 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5453.msg844530.html#msg844530)
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 01, 2014, 09:39:07 PM
Perhaps I am led astray by the impersonal tone you used: you kept referring to "the composer" and not to "Boulez". But as written you describe both Boulez's personal process but also a general theory of how musical composition works.
[I am referring to the last paragraph of reply 884. Cut and paste is near impossible on this tablet, which is why I am not directly quoting you.]
But:The idea that "something is always evolving, etc." is itself a theory.
I describe how it works for Boulez. Extrapolating from there and applying it to everyone, or assuming it is a description of how it should be was certainly not my intention--how could it be, if some of the other composers very dear to me compose with wildly different methods?
The "something always evolving" would be, at most, my theory about Boulez's method, but I fail to see how the word can be applied. Would you say dialectics is a theory?
Quote from: petrarch on November 02, 2014, 04:23:52 PM
I describe how it works for Boulez. Extrapolating from there and applying it to everyone, or assuming it is a description of how it should be was certainly not my intention--how could it be, if some of the other composers very dear to me compose with wildly different methods?
The "something always evolving" would be, at most, my theory about Boulez's method, but I fail to see how the word can be applied. Would you say dialectics is a theory?
Thanks for clarifying. I misunderstood you, and thought you were describing Boulez's ideas of how composition occurs for all composers.
Thanks for posting that, James :) ...it's quite a loving roundup of the (partial) recorded legacy of this great musician. It is a wonderful set....
Quote from: James on December 15, 2014, 07:00:13 AM
The Philharmonie is a huge, organic structure rising up in the Parc de la Villette, the arts and science park built just inside the boulevard périphérique on the site of the old Paris meat market and abattoirs. It is the latest and, sadly, possibly the last major manifestation of the energy and willpower of Pierre Boulez, composer, conductor and the godfather of music in France. For more than half a century, Boulez has used his influence to get concert halls built, ensembles founded and music research centres established. At 89, he is now in poor health, but his spirit is everywhere throughout this project. The neighbouring Cité de la Musique (which will come under the management of the Philharmonie and will be renamed Philharmonie 2) opened in 1995 and realised Boulez's dream for a flexible concert hall fit for the 21st century: wired for electronic sound, capable of changing shape and layout to accommodate contemporary works such as his own spatial masterpiece, Repons, and incorporating a museum and education spaces. But, with 900 seats, the Cité was too small for big symphony orchestras, and Boulez was soon planning a bigger version.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/dec/12/tale-of-two-cites-philharmonie-de-paris-social-divide#img-4
http://www.philharmoniedeparis.fr/fr.
If I may, the project dates back to when Mitterrand cam to power in 1981 (Boulez was among his supports from the arts milieu). The original project was to build in La Villette 3 classical music venues : an opera hall, an big concert hall and a smaller one, and the new Conservatoire. In the end, the new opera was built at La Bastille (and a concert hall was also planned there but never completed, only the doors exist until today, and it has been converted in a rehearsal venue), and only the Conservatoire and the smaller concert hall, plus a very tiny one, and a museum of instruments, were built in La Villette (with Portzamparc as architect, one of the sore losers of La Bastille).
Then Pleyel was renovated in the 2000s, and frankly nobody really thought a new concert hall was needed. But more than Boulez, it is Laurent Bayle, who manages the (public owned) Cité de la musique who succeeded in putting this project on the political agenda, even if there was clearly not a lack of venues in Paris (in fact, to ensure the success of the Philharmonie, Pleyel shall be rented for a long term lease by la Cité de la musique who owns it, but with a clause excluding all classical concerts, which is the subject of a current judicial procedure).
This project is a very complex story involving politicians, artists, the architect (Jean Nouvel), and it has been the subject of an excellent article by the famous(ish) journalist Claude Askolovitch in the French edition of Vanity Fair, a very nicely written piece that makes it look like a 21st volume to Zola's Rougon-Macquart saga. Read it (and try Google translate if needed), it is really good.
http://www.vanityfair.fr/actualites/france/articles/symphonie-inacheve-le-chantier-de-la-philharmonie-de-paris-qui-les-rend-tous-fous/14613
For the moment, bookings are really dramatically low. There are special offers and reduced prices on almost all concerts, and all categories. It is more and more certain than most concerts there will be more than half empty, and the Mayor of Paris has clearly demanded that there is less classical music and more pop and "urban" (hip-hop) music there (La Villette being also the place where "Le Zénith" stands, the biggest pop music venue in the Paris area), just as they already transformed Le Châtelet (owned by the city) in a place for Broadway-inspired musicals, instead of the ballet and opera productions one could see there in the 90s. The story isn't finished...
Quote from: James on December 15, 2014, 11:20:07 AM
It is a very beautiful venue ..
Well, let's wait for it to open before (positive or negative) feedback :)
Yes, I know, but it is still difficult to get the true definitive impression. For instance, I find that on these latest photos it seems more like a shoebox hall than I would have thought on the virtual designs.
Quote from: James on December 15, 2014, 12:28:09 PM
I still think it looks outstanding.
James,
I'm thinking that you can justify spending public funds on it if there really are great works, but it's hard to justify if you think art is just a sham....
I do hope this project is a success..should there be any problems with the plumbing, the electrical wiring or whatever, we all know who's going to get all the blame....that's right: P.B.! ::) :D
Quote from: James on December 15, 2014, 07:00:13 AM
The Philharmonie is a huge, organic structure rising up in the Parc de la Villette, the arts and science park built just inside the boulevard périphérique on the site of the old Paris meat market and abattoirs. It is the latest and, sadly, possibly the last major manifestation of the energy and willpower of Pierre Boulez, composer, conductor and the godfather of music in France. For more than half a century, Boulez has used his influence to get concert halls built, ensembles founded and music research centres established. At 89, he is now in poor health, but his spirit is everywhere throughout this project. The neighbouring Cité de la Musique (which will come under the management of the Philharmonie and will be renamed Philharmonie 2) opened in 1995 and realised Boulez's dream for a flexible concert hall fit for the 21st century: wired for electronic sound, capable of changing shape and layout to accommodate contemporary works such as his own spatial masterpiece, Repons, and incorporating a museum and education spaces. But, with 900 seats, the Cité was too small for big symphony orchestras, and Boulez was soon planning a bigger version.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/dec/12/tale-of-two-cites-philharmonie-de-paris-social-divide#img-4
http://www.philharmoniedeparis.fr/fr.
"Let us build a great auditorium, und zen ve vil flood our country with third virld muslims so ze kanst liebe our avant garde"
Quote from: James on December 17, 2014, 06:21:41 AM
The upcoming DG Boulez looks good ..
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91hUL2SIEaL._SL1500_.jpg)
Looks very attractive :) (but in this case, I own 100% of its contents ;D )...
For those interested, it's on pre-order in Italy (the usual page ;) ) at €90....
For S&G value only
..http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19487.msg855216.html#msg855216
Good find, James, that seems less hard sounding than the DG recording, and maybe more flowing. I enjoyed it more. Thanks.
People in Europe will no doubt be thrilled to know that Boulez's first recording of Pierrot Lunaire, originally on Adès and with Maria Bergmann, is now available from Bibliothèque Nationale de France. Better than his other Pierrots IMO. As far as I know it hasn't been released in the States.
And members of symphonyshare who like Pierrot will be pleased to know thay Robert Craft's first recording for Columbia, with Bethany Beardslee, is now available on mp3. An outstanding performance in every way.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 31, 2014, 07:59:45 AM
People in Europe will no doubt be thrilled to know that Boulez's first recording of Pierrot Lunaire, originally on Adès and with Maria Bergmann, is now available from Bibliothèque Nationale de France. Better than his other Pierrots IMO. As far as I know it hasn't been released in the States.
And members of symphonyshare who like Pierrot will be pleased to know thay Robert Craft's first recording for Columbia, with Bethany Beardslee, is now available on mp3. An outstanding performance in every way.
Thanks for the information,
Mandryka! For those in America, if it's of any help, just let you know that that first Boulez
Pierrot had been issued in this set...
[asin]B000CRQZNM[/asin]
...and was once again made available (in 2014) by Wergo:
[asin]B00JXZF5E4[/asin]
I must relisten to it (I've listened more to the Christine Schäfer recording on CD; I saw her live here in Madrid--under Cambreling--and she was superb!).
Let's hope we get a Robert Craft Original Jacket collection on Sony sometime soon! :)
Yet another label joins the 90th birthday celebrations of PB:
(http://cdn.tower.jp/za/l/85/825646190485.jpg)
Pierre Boulez: The Complete Erato Recordings (14 CDs)
announced in France and Japan for February / March...
Quote from: ritter on December 31, 2014, 10:39:10 AM
Yet another label joins the 90th birthday celebrations of PB:
(http://cdn.tower.jp/za/l/85/825646190485.jpg)
Pierre Boulez: The Complete Erato Recordings (14 CDs)
announced in France and Japan for February / March...
I'd like a copy of that box. This is all his music, instead of him conducting performances of other composers work, right?
Quote from: 7/4 on January 01, 2015, 07:31:24 AM
I'd like a copy of that box. This is all his music, instead of him conducting performances of other composers work, right?
According to this, it isn't:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.music.classical.recordings/CcOoK4gJ6zE/lsGkut898QEJ
The last few CDs on the box seem to match this (very worthwhile) one:
[asin]B000005EDT[/asin]
Quote from: 7/4 on January 01, 2015, 07:31:24 AM
I'd like a copy of that box. This is all his music, instead of him conducting performances of other composers work, right?
It's mostly Boulez as conductor rather than as composer--including some recordings that don't feature him at all--and most of what's there has had wide circulation already.
I found this listing, which looks similar to the one petrarch posted:
[CD1] Stravinsky: Pulcinella; Song of the Nightingale
[CD2] Stravinsky: Nightingale; Four Russian Songs; 3 Pieces for String Quartet; Madrid; Four Etudes for Orchestra
[CD3] Stravinsky: Soldier's Tale; Concertino
[CD4] Schoenberg: Pelleas et Melisande; Variations for Orchestra
[CD5] Schoenberg: Violin Concerto; Piano Concerto
[CD6] Messiaen: Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum; Couleurs de la Cite Celeste
[CD7] Berio: Sinfonia; Eindrucke; Xenakis: Jalons
[CD8] Donatoni: Tema, Cadeau; Ligeti: Etudes, Book 1; Horn Trio
[CD9] Kurtag: Messages of the Late Mrs R.V.Troussova; Birtwistle: ...agm...; Grisey: Modulations
[CD10] Carter: Oboe Concerto; Esprit rude/esprit doux; A Mirror on Which to Dwell; Penthode
[CD11] Dufourt: Antiphysis; Ferneyhough: Funerailles I & II; Harvey: Mortuos plango, Vivos voco; Holler: Arcus
[CD12] Boulez: Pli selon pli
[CD13] Boulez: La visage nuptial; Le soleil des eaux; Figures, Doubles, Prismes
[CD14] Boulez: Sonatina, Piano Sonata No 1, Memorial, Dialogue de l'ombre double; cummings ist der Dichter
Ah...if I have the last three, I don't need a box!
Quote from: James on January 01, 2015, 08:00:03 AM
Just seen this one too .. which brings together the 2 previous Le Domaine Musical boxes into 1.
[asin]B00QXJAKQQ[/asin]
Something didn't add up, as the previous Domaine Musical boxes, combined, amounted to 9 CDs (including the bonus CD in box 1, Boulez's first recording of
Le Marteau with Marie-Thérèse Cahn and the interview with Boulez by Claude Samuel). This set's 10th CD includes the
Canzoni 3 & 5 from the
Sacrae Symphoniae of Gabrieli, and Stravinsky's
Symphonies of Wind Instruments, all conducted by Rudolf Albert, and Boulez himself conducting Jean-Claude Eloy's
Equivalances...
http://musique.fnac.com/a7948091/Divers-Le-domaine-musical-10-CD-Capbox-Tirage-Limite-CD-album#ficheResume
This is actually the most interesting for me in all the recent spate of Boulez box sets, as I don't own a single CD of the whole lot. I might get the Erato one, though, despite the repeats, as it includes some Stravinsky recordings I've been desperate to find for a long time.
"Open"? Nonsense on stilts.
Ah, the Glory Days ... when turd in the punchbowl was a Career Path!
A heartfelt tribute from the Cleveland Orchestra and musicians associated to it:
https://www.youtube.com/v/h9wH-4p53FY
https://www.youtube.com/v/prijib0JVzQ
https://www.youtube.com/v/_eu52_kH8Q8
https://www.youtube.com/v/xhjrIgw-bTM
Actes Sud and the Philharmonie de Paris will release a 256-page catalogue of the exhibition scheduled to start next month to commemorate Boulez's 90th birthday:
(http://www.actes-sud.fr/sites/default/files/couv_jpg/9782330047962.jpg)
Further info (in French): http://www.actes-sud.fr/catalogue/arts/pierre-boulez
To mark his 90th, the March BBC Music mag has a good set of articles on Boulez, it covers all the major areas of his output separately, composer, conducter etc.
Mike
The Chiacgo Symphony Orchestra's Beyond the Score series has made available for viewing the taping of the the world premiere of A Pierre Dream: A Portrait of Pierre Boulez, a sort of concert / happening, with stage elements by Frank Gehry, video projections by Mike Tutaj and artistic supervision Gerard McBurney. Pablo Heras-Casado conducts members of the CSO in excerpts from many of Boulez's work.
A Pierre Dream: A Portrait of Pierre Boulez (http://csosoundsandstories.org/beyond-the-score-a-pierre-dream/?utm_source=mail2&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NewsRelease%3AChicagoSymphonyOrchestraCelebratesPierreBoulez%E2%80%99s90thBirthday)
In about an hour and a half, a fascintaing traversal of Boulez's creative output is made. Very worthwhile, IMHO! :)
This book is now available as a reasonably priced softcover
[asin]1107673208[/asin]
(http://www.ensembleinter.com/media/images/concerts/EIC.png)
The concert given at Paris's new Philharmonie on February 3, in which the Ensemble Intercontemporain, conducted by Matthias Pintscher and with Marisol Montalvo as soprano soloist, performed Pli selon pli, can be watched on the Arte TV channel's webpage through July 3rd. The second work on the program is Varèse's Amériques...
http://concert.arte.tv/fr/lensemble-intercontemporain-interprete-boulez-et-varese-la-philharmonie-de-paris#_
Quote from: ritter on February 28, 2015, 01:38:55 PM
(http://www.ensembleinter.com/media/images/concerts/EIC.png)
The concert given at Paris's new Philharmonie on February 3, in which the Ensemble Intercontemporain, conducted by Matthias Pintscher and with Marisol Montalvo as soprano soloist, performed Pli selon pli, can be watched on the Arte TV channel's webpage through July 3rd. The second work on the program is Varèse's Amériques...
http://concert.arte.tv/fr/lensemble-intercontemporain-interprete-boulez-et-varese-la-philharmonie-de-paris#_
Thanks for posting this link. I am watching/listening as I type.
Hope you enjoy(ed) it, sanantonio! This is one of te few major Boulez compositions I've bever seen in concert in its entirety (only the Improvisations sur Mallarmé 1 & 2, conducted by Peter Eötvös last year), and I still regret having missed it when Boulez toured it accross Europe (but, alas, not to Spain) in 2011.
Marisol Montalvo's reaction at the end (during the applause), a sort of mixture of relief, exultancy, sense of accomplishment, and disbelief, is rather touching (and the way one of the--female--violinists of the EIC in the second row watches her, with a face that seems to ask "what is this all about?", is quite funny ;D ). In any case, singing the whole piece without a score is quite a tour de force, I'd say, and her impassioned delivery of the vocal part seems to me a novel but very valid approach to this stunning music. Brava!
Quote from: ritter on March 01, 2015, 08:54:08 AM
Hope you enjoy(ed) it, sanantonio! This is one of te few major Boulez compositions I've bever seen in concert in its entirety (only the Improvisations sur Mallarmé 1 & 2, conducted by Peter Eötvös last year), and I still regret having missed it when Boulez toured it accross Europe (but, alas, not to Spain) in 2011.
Marisol Montalvo's reaction at the end (during the applause), a sort of mixture of relief, exultancy, sense of accomplishment, and disbelief, is rather touching (and the way one of the--female--violinists of the EIC in the second row watches her, with a face that seems to ask "what is this all about?", is quite funny ;D ). In any case, singing the whole piece without a score is quite a tour de force, I'd say, and her impassioned delivery of the vocal part seems to me a novel but very valid approach to this stunning music. Brava!
I was enjoying it quite a bit until for some reason my internet connection froze up and it stopped about half way through. I will try to get it going again.
Anyone in Chicago can come hear the Aimard/Stefanovich Boulez program at 3pm on Sunday March 15 at Symphony Center. I'm going.
http://cso.org/TicketsAndEvents/EventDetails.aspx?eid=6672
And members of the CSO will be performing Derive 2 on the 23rd:
http://cso.org/TicketsAndEvents/EventDetails.aspx?eid=6525
Quote from: MishaK on March 12, 2015, 12:09:37 PM
Anyone in Chicago can come hear the Aimard/Stefanovich Boulez program at 3pm on Sunday March 15 at Symphony Center. I'm going.
Same program at Carnegie Hall next day at 7:30 pm.
Quote from: ritter on March 01, 2015, 08:54:08 AM
Hope you enjoy(ed) it, sanantonio! This is one of te few major Boulez compositions I've bever seen in concert in its entirety (only the Improvisations sur Mallarmé 1 & 2, conducted by Peter Eötvös last year), and I still regret having missed it when Boulez toured it accross Europe (but, alas, not to Spain) in 2011.
Nor to America. Considering that to some ardent Boulezophiles this is his magnum opus, a real shame. I remember hearing it was performed complete once in New York many decades ago, I think under Arthur Winograd, but I've never seen it scheduled, and I've heard Marteau, Repons, Sur Incises, both Derives, all the piano music and more live here. But I've glad to have had the link (from another source); it was a stunning performance in excellent HD quality, and I was able to download it and make a DVD for myself.
On Thursday, March 26th (the birthday), there will be a brief recital in NY at the Metropolitan Museum of Art by pianist Conor Hanick including some of Boulez's works. Times: 1pm and 3pm, free with museum admission.
For people interested in Boulez's early works, some VERY RARE pieces like 3 psalmodies for piano and a "mystery" sonata movement have been broadcasted on France Musique radio for the first time since decades...
The program can be podcasted and is called: Le Mitan des musiciens
http://www.francemusique.fr/emission/le-mitan-des-musiciens/2014-2015/pierre-boulez-maurice-jarre-faces-b-03-16-2015-13-00
Quote from: Joaquimhock on March 16, 2015, 04:15:11 AM
For people interested in Boulez's early works, some VERY RARE pieces like 3 psalmodies for piano and a "mystery" sonata movement have been broadcasted on France Musique radio for the first time since decades...
The program can be podcasted and is called: Le Mitan des musiciens
http://www.francemusique.fr/emission/le-mitan-des-musiciens/2014-2015/pierre-boulez-maurice-jarre-faces-b-03-16-2015-13-00
Thanks for this,
Joaquimhock ! Finally the withdrawn
Psalmodies are available...I must confess I hade never even heard of that sonata movement...and I see that, in the same program, we also have the chance to listen to Boulez as a virtuoso of the Ondes Martinot... :)
In today's program (dedicated to Boulez's early works all the week long) Renaud Machart explained that this "mouvement de sonate" was an intermediary version of sonata N°1
He also broadcasted the very rare Oubli signal lapidé for choir.
Agree with Tommasini. Matches my experience at their Chicago performance last Sunday.
A glowing tribute by George Benjamin in The Guardian:
I once asked a group of young composers I was teaching whether there was any modern music they didn't like. More than half of them mentioned Pierre Boulez. I was initially shocked that they could reject such a supreme musical creator of our time, but the fiercely polemical character of the man may have been the reason for their antipathy. After all, it was Boulez who once declared, without a trace of irony, that any composer who did not acknowledge the necessity of Schoenberg's 12-tone system was "useless", and who wrote caustic articles such as "Schoenberg Is Dead", criticising the Austrian composer's approach just months after his death in 1951.
Many young composers read his writings, but they don't always know his music. And yet what you might not guess from the polemics is the sheer beauty of his compositions.
Messiaen, who taught Boulez, would say of him that, underneath it all, he was simply a poet. Messiaen also believed it would take a long time for the wider public to really understand Boulez's music, because it has a very particular and original sensibility.
I knew of Boulez well before I studied with Messiaen in the late 1970s. Growing up in the UK, I watched his superb documentaries on BBC2, directed by Barrie Gavin. Boulez was the BBC Symphony Orchestra's chief conductor in the early 70s and together they presented a sequence of inspiring programmes about modern music. Works by Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Webern, Berg, Ives, Bartók, Stravinsky, Varèse, Messiaen and Boulez himself were performed, analysed and contextualised. It was the kind of programming that is so sadly missing today, and it had a huge impact on me as a teenager. I also remember hearing him conduct Berg's Violin Concerto and the Rite of Spring with the National Youth Orchestra at the Festival Hall, London, and at the Proms where he placed a new Ligeti work alongside his own music.
Messiaen would talk with pride of his former student, describing him as a formidable and immense talent, though when young "he was like a flayed lion". Boulez was indeed a very angry young man.
He attacked anything in sight, including those who had taught him, such as René Leibowitz, a Schoenberg disciple who was largely responsible for introducing serialism to Paris. At one point, Boulez even turned against Messiaen, who had done so much to encourage and help him, and it was five years before their relationship was restored.
Boulez grew up in Nazi-occupied France. He was 20 when the second world war ended. The continent had to make itself anew. Messiaen used to describe travelling home on the Metro with Boulez after classes. Boulez would say "Who's going to put music right? It's in such a terrible state."
And Messiaen would reply: "You." He considered himself from his earliest days to have an almost Napoleonic mission regarding music and its cultural role. His ambition was not only to compose, but to change the attitude of the public, institutions in France and – later – the wider western world with regard to modernism. He initially pursued this aim with a heightened form of ideological dogmatism. The works of the Second Viennese School, and composers such as Bartók and Varèse, were not played at all in Paris in the late 40s; that they are now part of the international concert repertoire is in large part due to Boulez.
As a conductor, his approach to the early modernist masterpieces has had a tremendous impact on the way they are considered by younger conductors and heard by audiences. He made stupendous recordings of hundreds of pieces of music – among them works by his illustrious contemporaries Carter, Ligeti, Kurtág, Stockhausen, Berio and Birtwistle – and has inspired and helped generations of younger composers.
Through the power of his personality, the scale of his reputation and his considerable personal charm, Boulez has made big things happen, way beyond the confines of manuscript paper. Paris's new concert hall, the Philharmonie de Paris, owes its existence to him, as does the rest of the Cité de la Musique, his own group the Ensemble Intercontemporain and IRCAM, the musical research institution attached to the Pompidou Centre.
In his own music, however, he moved away from serialism, the great rallying cry of his youth, and over the years has further distanced himself from the concept, now viewing it with scepticism. For me, his best compositions are not the ones from his early years but the works in which the foundations of his earlier idiom are treated much more freely and with greater fantasy. I believe that only when he accepted he was fundamentally a French composer did he find his true voice.
Le Marteau sans maître (1953-57) was a breakthrough. It is a work in which you can also hear the profound influence of extra-European music, above all from Asia and Africa. This radically alters the sonority and the music's sense of time and direction, as well as its expressive viewpoint and ethos. Boulez was by no means the first French composer to be open to, and ravished by, eastern music – it had already had a transformative effect on the father of modern music, Debussy, and on succeeding generations – but he took it a stage further, and the curious marriage between his already transforming serial universe and the extra‑European world produced a unique style.
For me, his quasi-symphonic portrait of Mallarmé, Pli selon pli – completed in the early 60s – is a greater masterpiece, and the decades that followed produced gem after gem: Eclat/Multiples, Cummings Ist der Dichter, ... explosante-fixe ... , Sur Incises ... There is no better postwar piece written for orchestra than Notations, his five hyper-elaborate orchestral canvases, all based on very simple serial pieces he wrote for the piano in his early 20s. Arguably the most important composer-conductor since Mahler, Boulez knows the orchestra more intimately than any of his colleagues, and these short, dazzling showpieces have an intoxicating exuberance and elegance.
Boulez has only published around 30 works in his lifetime, the last about a decade ago. The first time we spent an evening together, in the mid-1980s, I asked him if he had any advice for me. He said: "No, except for one thing: write, just make sure you write lots of music."
Now aged 90, looking back, he perhaps feels he would have liked to have written more. But I suspect he has not had the easiest of relationships with his muse. This is a man with a vastly refined and critical mind. His intelligence is so questioning and extreme, and his aural imagination so sensitive and acute, that composing must have been a taxing experience. The world today doesn't need huge numbers of pieces, as it did in, say, Haydn's time. What are needed, surely, are essential statements, singular and unique works. And these he has provided, without question.
With his conducting and recording, his work with orchestras and institutions in Paris, London, New York and Lucerne, Boulez found a balance that worked for him. He loved conducting, and cherished the contact he has had with the Cleveland and Chicago Symphony Orchestras in the USA, as well as the BBC and London Symphony Orchestras here. His closeness and devotion to the Ensemble Intercontemporain, is such that they resemble family. And then there is his revelatory Wagner interpretation in the centenary Ring at Bayreuth. He has achieved more than most achieve in three lifetimes.
Ultimately I think Boulez is a great optimist, despite the shadows that coloured his early years. In the end what he believes is simple: today's music has to be different from the music of the past.
That's a natural thing. Western music continues to evolve and transform
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/mar/20/george-benjamin-in-praise-of-pierre-boulez-at-90
There's also a a link in The Guardian to archival material from the paper, starting in the early 50s: here (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/mar/20/george-benjamin-in-praise-of-pierre-boulez-at-90)
Quote from: James on March 18, 2015, 08:56:45 AM
Review: Pierre-Laurent Aimard and Tamara Stefanovich in All-Boulez Program
By ANTHONY TOMMASINI
MARCH 17, 2015
(http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/03/18/arts/18AIMARD/18AIMARD-master675.jpg)
Tamara Stefanovich and Pierre-Laurent Aimard on Monday night at Zankel Hall.
Credit Michelle V. Agins/The New York Times
Pierre Boulez emerged in the late 1940s in Paris as a combative modernist, the brash new leader of the avant-garde. By 1952 he declared that any musician who had not felt the "necessity of the dodecaphonic language" was "of no use." Despite subsequent decades of winning over mainstream classical music audiences through his work as a conductor with lucid, colorful performances of everything from Wagner operas to Mahler symphonies, Mr. Boulez, who turns 90 on March 26, has never shaken his early reputation for writing pieces of off-putting complexity.
I wonder if those who feel this way might have had an epiphany from the Boulez program on Monday night at Zankel Hall. The masterly French pianist Pierre-Laurent Aimard, along with a former student, the brilliant Yugoslav-born pianist Tamara Stefanovich, offered a rare chance for an immersion in some of Mr. Boulez's most fiendishly difficult pieces. Between them they played the complete solo piano works, including the three seminal sonatas, as well as Book II of "Structures" for two pianos. In these dazzling, rhapsodic and nuanced performances, Mr. Boulez's thorny pieces came across as radical, yes; extreme, for sure; but stunningly inventive and supremely musical.
Before playing "Douze Notations," a set of 12 miniatures that Mr. Boulez wrote in 1945 when he was 20, Mr. Aimard, a close associate of the composer, explained that the piano was Mr. Boulez's main instrument for exploration of new compositional challenges. Yet the "Notations" are like character pieces, he said, a quality Mr. Aimard conveyed in his vibrant performance, full of restless energy and myriad shadings. For all the bursts of steely chords and spiraling pointillist flights, echoes of Messiaen, Stravinsky and Schoenberg came through.
In this context, the Piano Sonata No. 1, from 1946, which Mr. Aimard played next, one heard the young Mr. Boulez taking a leap into audacious originality. More jarring than the skittish streams of 12-tone rows and whatnot is the rhythmic radicalism of the sonata. For all the breathless intensity, there is little sense of pulse here. The music unfolds in organic gestures, all fits and starts and stops. Yet Mr. Aimard drew captivating lyricism from the music as well. A gesture would begin with clanking clusters and splintering lines, then trail off into delicate curlicues with crucial lingering notes .
Ms. Stefanovich then played the Sonata No. 2 (completed in 1948), a monumental work in four movements, one of the hardest pieces ever written. Here the young Mr. Boulez was taking on Beethoven, writing a tradition-bashing answer to the challenge of the mighty "Hammerklavier" Sonata. Ms. Stefanovich's performance was staggeringly brilliant, especially the frenzied, explosive climax of the final fast movement.
Mr. Aimard returned for the Sonata No. 3 (completed in 1957), music that alternates between musical assertions and pensive ruminations. Ms. Stefanovich then played "Incises," composed in 1994 for a piano competition, a work she aptly described as a "21st-century neurotic toccata." For once Mr. Boulez gives us a piece with streams of repeated notes and pulsing rhythmic riffs. Mr. Aimard also played "Une Page d'Éphéméride," a short work that Mr. Boulez was asked to write in 2005 as part of an album for young pianists. Being Boulez, though, he clearly had in mind aspiring pianists who already had considerable technique.
Finally, these two Boulez champions performed Book II of "Structures" (completed in 1961), in which the pianists play with significant independence from each other, according to their in-the-moment choices. Even the sequence of events is not predetermined. By reputation this is a piece of formidable complexity, both for performers and listeners. Yet in this arresting, at times impish performance, it sounded delightful.
Can someone recommend available recordings of these works?
Thanks in advance.
I agree with James's recommendations (and it's good to see that Jumppanen's Third sonata gets the credit it's due IMHO).
You may consider, in any case, going for this, NJ Joe:
[asin]B00BLDHPZS[/asin]
It's available in Europe for about half the price AmUS is quoting. You get the Aimard First, the Pollini Second and the Jumpannen Third, plus (almost) all of Boulez's other music in authorative perfromances...
Quote from: ritter on March 21, 2015, 08:00:54 AM
I agree with James's recommendations (and it's good to see that Jumppanen's Third sonata gets the credit it's due IMHO).
You may consider, in any case, going for this, NJ Joe:
[asin]B00BLDHPZS[/asin]
It's available in Europe for about half the price AmUS is quoting. You get the Aimard First, the Pollini Second and the Jumpannen Third, plus (almost) all of Boulez's other music in authorative perfromances...
Yes I have been strongly considering this, and didn't realize it contained the piano sonatas. I'd say now it's a definite purchase.
Thanks!
EDIT: Well it does say complete works now, doesn't it? For some reason I was thinking complete works for orchestra.
Quote from: NJ Joe on March 21, 2015, 08:13:17 AM
Yes I have been strongly considering this, and didn't realize it contained the piano sonatas. I'd say now it's a definite purchase.
Thanks!
EDIT: Well it does say complete works now, doesn't it? For some reason I was thinking complete works for orchestra.
Unless shipping to the US is prohibitively expensive, try here (http://www.amazon.it/Complete-Works--Ltd--Pierre-Boulez/dp/B00BLDHPZS/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1426953390&sr=1-3&keywords=boulez)
It is "complete", if you disregard he withdrawn or unpublished works (
Polyphonie X,
Trois Psalmodies for piano,
Oubli Signal Lapidé for choir, the incidental music, etc.). Many of these works can be listened to in France Musique's webpage, as
Joaquimhock pointed out a couple of days ago.
Quote from: Joaquimhock on March 16, 2015, 04:15:11 AM
For people interested in Boulez's early works, some VERY RARE pieces like 3 psalmodies for piano and a "mystery" sonata movement have been broadcasted on France Musique radio for the first time since decades...
The program can be podcasted and is called: Le Mitan des musiciens
http://www.francemusique.fr/emission/le-mitan-des-musiciens/2014-2015/pierre-boulez-maurice-jarre-faces-b-03-16-2015-13-00
this thread gets more suspenseful with each post,... always wondering "did I miss it?" "is he still with us?"
i Mean can we just not talk about B until... "it" happens, so I don't have to hold my breath every time I click on here, hmm?
Quote from: James on March 21, 2015, 08:03:06 AM
Must admit .. I do not care for any of Boulez's other solo (or duo) piano compositions outside of the Piano Sonatas.
what don't you like about the 2 piano piece,... Structures? You like BAZ's 2 piano piece (Kontarsky)?
I still like
Amaird (Erato) = No.1
Pollini = No.2
Jumpy = No.3
Quote from: snyprrr on March 22, 2015, 07:54:24 PM
this thread gets more suspenseful with each post,... always wondering "did I miss it?" "is he still with us?"
Me, too. And it's all because you mentioned it last year!
I wonder if he will publish anything else, but I hear he is not well. Has he conducted recently?
BTW James, thanks for the BBC link. They have some great stuff!
Quote from: George BenjaminBoulez has only published around 30 works in his lifetime, the last about a decade ago. The first time we spent an evening together, in the mid-1980s, I asked him if he had any advice for me. He said: "No, except for one thing: write, just make sure you write lots of music."
Now aged 90, looking back, he perhaps feels he would have liked to have written more. But I suspect he has not had the easiest of relationships with his muse. [...]
[...] In the end what he believes is simple: today's music has to be different from the music of the past.
That's a natural thing. Western music continues to evolve and transform.
As always, one smiles at the central irony of this artist's life: "... what he believes is simple: today's music has to be different from the music of the past."
And — apparently unable to follow his own advice ("just make sure you write lots of music") — he's painted himself intellectually into a corner, with the result that the last music he published was "about a decade ago."
An irony which, of course, casts question on the value of his firm pronouncements. (And again, the difference between their being
of interest, and
of use.)
8)
Quote from: A. Page[Boulez] came to give a composer's workshop at the Conservatoire I studied at. I was pleasantly surprised by him.
The first question to him (asked by me) was: " You have been quoted as saying that the idea of a great English composer is a genetic impossibility, are we wasting our time?"
Hilarity and applause ensued. " The only time you seem to be wasting" he replied " is in reading my old interviews."
Hah!
(Accountability was never Boulez's friend.)
LOL
It's come full circle: the puffery with which
Wagner has been traditionally honored is now an attribute of
Boulez: "there's no such thing as indifference to him! You hates him if you don't love him! And, and, that means, yes,
by God, that he is
ALL IMPORTANT !!!"
QuoteThe fact is: No one can escape Boulez, whether it is as a follower or rebel.
This thread would be so much more fun if it were less The Mickey Mouse Club.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 25, 2015, 05:04:42 AM
LOL
It's come full circle: the puffery with which Wagner has been traditionally honored is now an attribute of Boulez: "there's no such thing as indifference to him! You hates him if you don't love him! And, and, that means, yes, by God, that he is ALL IMPORTANT !!!"
This thread would be so much more fun if it were less The Mickey Mouse Club.
How can you argue with this statement?
"It is not enough to deface the Mona Lisa because that does not kill the Mona Lisa. All art of the past must be destroyed." — Pierre Boulez
Leaving only his music, until that is, he is part of the past.
Quote from: sanantonio on March 25, 2015, 05:11:35 AM
How can you argue with this statement?
"It is not enough to deface the Mona Lisa because that does not kill the Mona Lisa. All art of the past must be destroyed." — Pierre Boulez
As tireless self-promotion, the statement is inspired 8)
Quote from: James on March 25, 2015, 05:34:18 AM
Ah yes, right on cue .. the usual gang of idiots has arrived.
I agree, Boulez did make an idiotic statement. One of many. But why don't you cut and paste another glowing tribute, in an even larger font.
It's part of his unintended humor. Those who disagree with him are perforce idiots! How could it be otherwise?
Say, is James a commentator on Fox News, do you suppose?
And, considering how slight the chances are of Boulez completing another composition anytime soon, face it: James's self-spoofing keeps the interest in this thread!
Ladies & Gentlemen...
Is it really necessary to vent our little (and at times even petty) disagreements in this thread? For many, Pierre Boulez is anathema, and a destrucuive force in music. For others (including myself), he has been a man that has broadened horizons in music (and even outside music) and has been a constant company in our music-loving lives for many years.
The man turns 90 tomorrow, and this is a reason for many of us to rejoice. Do we need to turn this into a Boulez-bashing thraad just now? There's lots of music I don't care for, but I wouldn't dream of going into, for instance, the Shostakovich thread to write how unbelivebly ugly I think Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk is...
Not liking Boulez is perfectly legitimate...But I do think he's being used in some posts as a pawn to settle other scores that have nothing to do with him or his work...
Cheers,
It's not Boulez I dislike, I treasure his music, while ignoring his many excessive statements. No, the unfortunate distraction taking up so much space in this thread is his fanboy.
Quote from: sanantonio on March 25, 2015, 06:33:52 AM
It's not Boulez I dislike, I treasure his music, while ignoring his many excessive statements.
Ditto.
Quote from: ritter on March 25, 2015, 06:30:36 AM
Ladies & Gentlemen...
Is it really necessary to vent our little (and at times even petty) disagreements in this thread? For many, Pierre Boulez is anathema, and a destructuive force in muisc. For others (including myself), he has been a man that has broadened horizons in music (and even outside music) and has been a constant company in our music-loving llives for many years.
The man turns 90 tomorrow, and this is a reason for many of us to rejoice. Do we need to turn this in a Boulez-bashing therad just now? There's lots of music I don't care for, but I wouldn't dream of going into, for instance, the Shostakovish thread to write how unbelivebly ugly I think Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk is...
Not liking Boulez is perfectly legitimate...But I do think he's being used in some posts as a pawn to settle other scores that have nothing to do with him or his work...
I am open to being shown how any of my posts today have been "bashing
Boulez," neighbor.
There's only one party here bashing, and he is The Pro-
Boulez Front.
Quote from: sanantonio on March 25, 2015, 05:54:44 AM
I agree, Boulez did make an idiotic statement. One of many. But why don't you cut and paste another glowing tribute, in an even larger font.
And your point is what? So he made a statement. Lots of composers make statements. Some are pretty idiotic too. What matters in the long run are Boulez's contributions to composition and conducting.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 25, 2015, 08:34:58 AM
And your point is what? So he made a statement. Lots of composers make statements. Some are pretty idiotic too. What matters in the long run are Boulez's contributions to composition and conducting.
I agree 100%. Just tweaking James. Right; a useless pursuit.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 25, 2015, 08:34:58 AM
. . . What matters in the long run are Boulez's contributions to composition and conducting.
Agree completely. I wished simply to point out the 2-D disingenuousness of Mark Swed's "
Boulez influences you, even if you do nothing like what he does" gambit. Well, and yes, I found it funny, because that's just what your pickled-in-the-Kool-Ade Wagnerite says about
his idol.
http://www.universaledition.com/boulez-90
QuoteBut Bruckner's influence is surprising, since Bruckner wasn't part of French musical culture – at least not while you were growing up.
Boulez: Bruckner wasn't even performed at all, and even as late as when Karajan brought along a symphony by Bruckner when he came on tour with the Berlin Philharmonic, the reaction in some of the papers was, "why did he bring this monster?" And even Messiaen – though you can imagine that there are some very strange ties between the universe of Messiaen and the universe of Bruckner – Messiaen said, "oh, Bruckner, that's a lot of bridges." Now in French, when you have a transition from one section to another one, you call that a bridge. And for Messiaen, Bruckner's music was simply one of transition after transition after transition. And that's very strange, and the French are indeed sometimes complete strangers to ways of musical thinking that are not native to their own practice. Even in the case of Mahler: now he's very popular, but France was that last country to rediscover him. England and the States were much more open to the influence of Mahler [than] the French were.
Happy 90th birthday! Joyeux anniversaire! Alles Gute zum Geburtstag!
(http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Salzburg+Festival+Pierre+Boulez+Receives+Award+WA0uvaw_xV4l.jpg)
With deep gratitude for all the joy Pierre Boulez has given to many of us for many, many years.
I could say something like "20th century is just too easy at this point .. and everything usually is weighted toward the 1st half of the century give or take a year. I don't think [Pierre Boulez] has assimilated the masters of the 2nd half much."
But I won't.
;D
Quote from: sanantonio on March 26, 2015, 02:18:28 AM
I could say something like "20th century is just too easy at this point .. and everything usually is weighted toward the 1st half of the century give or take a year. I don't think [Pierre Boulez] has assimilated the masters of the 2nd half much."
But I won't.
;D
It's a notion worth considering, though 8)
Happy birthday,
maître! (Put that
marteau down ....)
Quote from: James on March 26, 2015, 02:31:29 AM
Christ .. I saw that one coming last week.
Was it at a very early age that you had your sense of humor removed?
Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2015, 02:32:59 AM
It's a notion worth considering, though 8)
Happy birthday, maître! (Put that marteau down ....)
Well, happy birthday, with a
marteau-shaped birthday cake!
Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2015, 02:32:59 AM
It's a notion worth considering, though 8)
Happy birthday, maître! (Put that marteau down ....)
Hear, hear! Happy Birthday.
Another notion worth considering is how Euro-centric is his list.
Happy birthday to
BoulezQuote from: sanantonio on March 26, 2015, 02:50:45 AM
Another notion worth considering is how Euro-centric is his list.
And the only living composer on the list is
Boulez. . .
But it's not a list of the ten great
est pieces, just ten great pieces. And it's all music he knows intimately, has performed, and comes or is part of the tradition he comes from.
Quote from: James on March 26, 2015, 02:54:38 AM
Come on! You know your stuff or what?
First, that is the birth place of western art music/composition, it was imported to the States much, much later.
Second, his oft stated favorite American composer was Elliott Carter.
I think it shows how trivial these kinds of lists are. Boulez is an important composer/musician, but his list is just another pointless list of works that are fetishized at the expense of all the other well crafted and worthwhile music that has been written in the vast amount of space not included in any list of ten works.
Quote from: sanantonio on March 26, 2015, 03:01:26 AM
I think it shows how trivial these kinds of lists are. Boulez is an important composer/musician, but his list is just another pointless list of works that are fetishized at the expense of all the other well crafted and worthwhile music that has been written in the vast amount of space not included in any list of ten works.
Why, you almost talk as if
Boulez had merely human limitations and prejudices!
Quote from: James on March 26, 2015, 03:05:05 AMPointless? Central-Europe is the cultural center of classical music and it's birth place, wake up please.
Central-Europe is nowadays generally defined as 'Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania' and a few neighbours. So, I tend to agree with your Central-European preferences.
Quote from: James on March 26, 2015, 03:05:05 AM
Pointless? Central-Europe is the cultural center of classical music and it's birth place, wake up please.
And I'd say that is a pretty damn great list. Like you know any better!
It is a arguably a very good list. However, you missed my point entirely, which was not that I had a problem with his specific choices. Rather my criticism was towards the
idea of compiling a list in the first place. It is akin, IMO, to attempting to capture the entire history of the 20th century with ten headlines. And for Boulez, only European newspapers at that.
There's something wonderfully (if only mildly) amusing about a native speaker of English,
in this "Cultural Policing" context, employing both a superfluous hyphen and the wrong form of
its:
Quote from: The only guy here who has it together musically, face itCentral-Europe is the cultural center of classical music and it's birth place, wake up please.
I suppose the eradication of the fallacies only begins with . . . at this point, does Classical Music have a "center"?
Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2015, 05:16:24 AM
I suppose the eradication of the fallacies only begins with . . . at this point, does Classical Music have a "center"?
When did it have? I have a feeling that this is always posthumous creation, the winners writing the history of the cultural wars. . .
Quote from: North Star on March 26, 2015, 05:18:49 AM
When did it have? I have a feeling that this is always posthumous creation, the winners writing the history of the cultural wars. . .
Exactly.
Guys, it's PB's birthday! Stop arguing! Go and listen to Eclat or something...
*In a scolding tone* Karl, stop firing up James! James, stop catching on fire!
Quote from: EigenUser on March 26, 2015, 05:46:29 AM
Guys, it's PB's birthday! Stop arguing! Go and listen to Eclat or something...
*In a scolding tone* Karl, stop firing up James! James, stop catching on fire!
I will honor his birthday in the most appropriate way. I will try to have other composers' music suppressed.
I wonder if
Boulez enjoys
The Simpsons . . . .
Quote from: Ken B on March 26, 2015, 05:53:30 AM
I will honor his birthday in the most appropriate way. I will try to have other composers' music suppressed.
(* dries a tear of chauvinistic pride *)
Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2015, 05:56:23 AM
I wonder if Boulez enjoys The Simpsons . . . .
I'm sure he does. They made fun of Philip Glass in an episode (the one when Springfield got a concert hall and orchestra). People start leaving after the first 8 notes of Beethoven's 5th (because "that's the important part!") and Marge yells out "Wait -- don't go! Next up we have Philip Glass!" They all run out screaming (including the musicians).
Well, and Tippett enjoyed Wonder Woman, so who would fault Pierre for digging The Simpsons?
Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2015, 07:08:58 AM
Well, and Tippett enjoyed Wonder Woman, so who would fault Pierre for digging The Simpsons?
Lest not forget
Herr Henning and
South Park...
Quote from: springrite on March 26, 2015, 07:14:42 AM
Lest not forget Herr Henning and South Park...
Get Smart !
Quote from: James on March 26, 2015, 09:24:21 AM
Not quite and it's what we do .. separate the best from the rest. Welcome to reality.
Who's we? My reality is one where people discover the best from the rest for themselves. I am not going to apply my taste to limit their selections. Once you create a list and open a door to that small group of works, often you are closing them off to a much greater world of music. What I prefer is for people to simply enjoy the process of discovery. If I ever try to do anything it is to encourage them to take the journey and find new music for themselves that no one has proselytized to them as "the best".
Separating the best from the rest: that's why I have no time for James's opinions, come to think of it. There's a proper application of the principle.
Quote from: North Star on March 26, 2015, 05:18:49 AM
When did it have? I have a feeling that this is always posthumous creation, the winners writing the history of the cultural wars. . .
I guess the last few dozen post's belong to a battle of the cultural war you're speaking of. ;)
Quote from: James on March 26, 2015, 09:40:47 AM
Come on, wake up seriously. Lists by minds like Boulez do not inhibit exploration they often encourage more of it. i.e. I liked that piece let me explore more from this composer etc. ... .. .. then the branching out begins. They are often reference points to more, not FINAL endpoints.
This is his list:
I. Edgard Varèse, Ameriques
II. Alban Berg, Three Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 6
III. Igor Stravinsky, The Rite of Spring
IV. Béla Bartók, Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta
V. Anton Webern, Six Pieces for Orchestra
VI. Luciano Berio, Sinfonia
VII. Karlheinz Stockhausen, Gruppen
VIII. Gustav Mahler, Symphony No. 6
IX. Arnold Schönberg, Erwartung
X. Pierre Boulez, Repons
Here we are 15 years into the 21st century, and he is talking about Mahler. Several of those works are from not just the first half of the 20th century, but the first quarter. Much of the best new music has nothing to do with
any of those composers. Other than for some vague idea of
his understanding of music history, I am not very interested in the works Pierre Boulez considers the most important, or why.
Maybe you think this kind of list will inspire people to find new music, but for me all it does is drag down the discussion with the weight of the past. Instead of trying to point people to "the best" of the last 100 years, just point them to something that is being done, today.
Quote from: chadfeldheimer on March 26, 2015, 10:00:05 AM
I guess the last few dozen post's belong to a battle of the cultural war you're speaking of. ;)
Ken was joking; and, typically, our certain someone doesn't get that it's a joke 8)
Quote from: Ken B on March 26, 2015, 05:53:30 AM
I will honor his birthday in the most appropriate way. I will try to have other composers' music suppressed.
Quote from: sanantonio on March 26, 2015, 10:03:48 AM
This is his list:
Allow me to add dates—
I. Edgard Varèse, Ameriques (1918–1921; revised 1927)
II. Alban Berg, Three Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 6 (1913-1915)
III. Igor Stravinsky, The Rite of Spring (1912-13)
IV. Béla Bartók, Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta (1936)
V. Anton Webern, Six Pieces for Orchestra (1909–10, revised 1928)
VI. Luciano Berio, Sinfonia (1968)
VII. Karlheinz Stockhausen, Gruppen (1955–57)
VIII. Gustav Mahler, Symphony No. 6 (1903–04)
IX. Arnold Schönberg, Erwartung (1909)
X. Pierre Boulez, Répons (completed 1984?)
So:
* 6 out of 10 works from the first quarter of the XX-c.
* 7 out of 10 works from the first half of the XX-c. (and elsewhere, James sneers at GMG-ers who are "stuck in" the first half of the XX-c.)
* Of the remaining three works, he wrote one, and the other two were written by close friends (that's bad tone when anyone else does it, but when one of James's idols does it, it's just another aspect of his genius)
Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2015, 10:05:57 AM
Ken was joking; and, typically, our certain someone doesn't get that it's a joke 8)
Actually I picketed the DSO. They were about to perform Shostakovich! Thankfully my sirens are loder than their strings. The 10th was averted!
so... much... text,.. so,... sleepy,...I..I...I....
Quote from: snyprrr on March 26, 2015, 04:45:09 PM
so... much... text,.. so,... sleepy,...I..I...I....
You don't have to read it, you know.
OK, time to listen to pli selon pli ... no text...
Quote from: James on March 26, 2015, 02:57:53 PM
The Sensuous Radical: Pierre Boulez at 90
MARCH 26, 201512:49 PM ET
(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2015/03/25/boulez-d7320281aceb451c588b0fdecff04206f60de482-s800-c85.jpg)
Once there was a young firebrand whose revolutionary ideas forever changed the shape, feel and sound of classical music. No, we're not talking about Beethoven. We're talking about Boulez. Pierre Boulez, the French composer and conductor, turns 90 years old today.
The young Boulez was a rebel, even a rabble-rouser right after World War II, both in his music and in his musical philosophy.
"I see music as a kind of continuity, like a big tree," Boulez told NPR in 2000. "Of course there are many branches, many different directions. I think music is in constant evolution, and there is nothing absolutely fixed and rigidly determined."
But there was one thing fixed in Boulez's mind: the need to shake music up. Early on, he and some like-minded buddies disrupted a Stravinsky concert, complaining about the composer's neoclassical style. Later, Boulez declared that one solution to opera's problems would be to blow up the opera houses.
"In Britain we had this phrase 'angry young man,'" says Paul Griffiths, author of the book Modern Music and After. "Boulez was very decisive about how things should go for himself at a very early age and rejecting anything that stood in his way or that seemed to be backpedaling on the way to the future."
The young Boulez was disillusioned after the war. How could European culture spawn such carnage? Music, like Europe, Boulez thought, would have to be rebuilt. But first he had to tear it down.
"The only way to assert himself," Griffiths says, "was to be against everything else, to push through barriers and through destruction to bring about something new."
What Boulez created was a new emphasis on sound, color and the very building blocks of music.
"This music is as seductive as any on the planet," says St. Louis Symphony Orchestra Music Director David Robertson. The conductor spent most of the 1990s in Paris leading Boulez's Ensemble Intercontemporain. He's quick to point out the sensual side of Boulez's music, as in Notation No. 1 for orchestra, which began its life as a piano miniature in 1945.
"When Notation No. 1 enters," Robertson notes, "you have this different layering of the instruments between the harps and the violins in such a way that it's almost as though we're laying out different types of silk fabric that interweave. And they are not clearly folded. They are being draped on the musical landscape."
You may not be able to hum Notation No. 1, but Griffiths feels that's not the point.
(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2015/03/25/boulez2_wide-398672b6d1ae49ac2879f4cba025dc794b3b8183-s800-c85.jpg)
"You have to change your idea of what melody and harmony are," Griffiths says. "The thing is, we're all brought up with this huge education in the harmonic system that governed Western music for so long. And that music has taught us how to listen to that music and it hasn't taught us how to listen to other music."
Other music from other countries, for instance, or the 12-tone style of music developed by Arnold Schoenberg in the 1920s, which inspired Boulez. There's a little of both, Griffiths says, in Boulez's 1955 breakthrough Le Marteau sans maître (The Hammer Without a Master).
"He forms a completely new kind of chamber ensemble," Griffiths says. "It now sounds standard because it has become almost the norm. But then it was completely new." Think of ensembles like eighth blackbird today.
In Marteau there's a singer and a percussionist, plus flute and viola. Then a guitar which hints at Spain, a vibraphone that evokes Indonesian music and a xylophone that conjures up African music.
"It's a kind of world music long before we were talking about world music, but re-formed in completely his own way," Griffiths says.
The piece was evocative, and even something of a hit for Boulez, but it was also complicated. Early on, the composer was the only one who understood his music well enough to conduct it. And that's how Boulez backed into a second career as a conductor, leading major orchestras in London, New York, Chicago and Cleveland, conducting a width swath of classical music from Handel to the contemporary British composer George Benjamin (who has returned the favor).
By transforming himself into an all-purpose conductor, Boulez could cushion concerts with audience favorites while introducing contemporary pieces.
It's another Boulez innovation still influencing the concert experience today, according to Griffiths: "The conductors from the next generation, and the generation after that, like Esa-Pekka Salonen or Simon Rattle, are able to do a much wider repertoire with much more new music than was possible before Boulez was on the podium."
Over the years, the angry young man has mellowed a bit, but not completely. Boulez has harsh words for composers today who look only to the past and write pretty melodies.
"I find that's lazy, especially," Boulez says. "They don't try to revive anything. They just copy, and copy badly, and that's really for me the worst of sins, when you're not imaginative at all, when you are just complacent with yourself."
And when quizzed about the ferocity of his opinions, Boulez is still rapier quick: "I'm not ferocious at all. I am defining what I think. If you call that ferocity, ferocity is a very cheap way of living."
But no one will accuse Boulez of living cheaply, especially Robertson. "There is no B.S. in anything that he is doing," Robertson says, "either on the page or conducting."
At 90, Boulez remains a protean force for new music through his own compositions and institutions that he founded, the Ensemble Intercontemporain and the high-tech experimental music lab, IRCAM, in Paris. And, for a younger generation of artists, such as Robertson, Boulez is still a beacon, a musical thinker, a provocateur, a pioneer charting new ground.
"It's that real singular devotion to the music which I think will be his greatest legacy," Robertson says. "There are relatively few people who have this impact on the world, and Pierre is definitely up there among the major personalities of the 20th and 21st centuries."
James,
I hate to bring this up. But this article reminds me a bit about that John Coltrane discussion we had. He was also sick and aging, You said he put his Sop Sax away. Do you thing that Boulez would put his Baton away?? Inquiring minds want to know.....
Quote from: snyprrr on March 26, 2015, 04:45:09 PM
so... much... text,.. so,... sleepy,...I..I...I....
He's right. though: His ferocity was cheap.
"The only way to assert himself," Griffiths says, "was to be against everything else [...]" and there are some who think that's "new," right?
8)
One of the two main characteristics of Modernism, according to Peter Gray (the book met with a lot of criticism, but this was not the point in that IMO) is the 'ruthless exploration of the self en self expression' (in Charles Taylor terms). Some lived after this idea.
I'm a little late with the birthday celebration, but I searched for what was my first introduction to Pierre Boulez. It was a 1992 televised concert commemorating the 150th anniversary of the NY Phil, I believe it aired on the New York PBS station when I was living in Jersey. It was also my introduction to Le Mer. I recorded it on VHS back then and must have watched it 30 times. I'm really thrilled to have located it.
The concert also featured a conductor-less Candide Ovt, Strauss' Till Eulenspiegel with Mehta and Dvorak's New World Symphony with Masur.
https://www.youtube.com/v/5XVHLO9k3HI
Quote from: Christo on March 27, 2015, 02:27:37 AM
One of the two main characteristics of Modernism, according to Peter Gray (the book met with a lot of criticism, but this was not the point in that IMO) is the 'ruthless exploration of the self en self expression' (in Charles Taylor terms). Some lived after this idea.
Well, and that sounds like an extension of Romanticism.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 27, 2015, 02:54:47 AM
I'm a little late with the birthday celebration, but I searched for what was my first introduction to Pierre Boulez. It was a 1992 televised concert commemorating the 150th anniversary of the NY Phil, I believe it aired on the New York PBS station when I was living in Jersey. It was also my introduction to Le Mer. I recorded it on VHS back then and must have watched it 30 times. I'm really thrilled to have located it.
The concert also featured a conductor-less Candide Ovt, Strauss' Till Eulenspiegel with Mehta and Dvorak's New World Symphony with Masur.
https://www.youtube.com/v/5XVHLO9k3HI
Très cool!
Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2015, 03:51:05 AM
Well, and that sounds like an extension of Romanticism.
C'est-à-dire: plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
Elliott Carter died at the age of 104, and remained active until the end of his life. in fact the last decade of his life was one of his most prolific. John Cage also was very prolific in his last decade writing dozens of new works, including some of his very best music.
However, Pierre Boulez who has been crippled by indecision throughout his career, has essentially been struck mute for years. His primary active compositional work has been orchestrating the piano miniatures written when he was 20 (Notations). He has revised his own compositions again and again. It is almost as if he cannot commit to a conception of a work or there is a poverty of imagination forcing him to keep going back to the same material.
I cannot help but see the sad irony of where he has ended up, silenced by indecision and insecurity.
The man who more than any (and in fact famous for it) who was so dismissive of and who publicly ridiculed other composers and styles and manner of working, has been the composer more than any who has had difficulty finding his own voice.
Quote from: sanantonio on March 27, 2015, 04:33:43 AM
Elliott Carter died at the age of 104, and remained active until the end of his life. in fact the last decade of his life was one of his most prolific. John Cage also was very prolific in his last decade writing dozens of new works, including some of his very best music.
However, Pierre Boulez who has been crippled by indecision throughout his career, has essentially been struck mute for years. His primary active compositional work has been orchestrating the piano miniatures written when he was 20 (Notations). He has revised his own compositions again and again. It is almost as if he cannot commit to a conception of a work or there is a poverty of imagination forcing him to keep going back to the same material.
I cannot help but see the sad irony of where he has ended up, silenced by indecision and insecurity.
The man who more than any (and in fact famous for it) who was so dismissive of and who publicly ridiculed other composers and styles and manner of working, has been the composer more than any who has had difficulty finding his own voice.
A man who was a master of self-promotion, but who created so little work to be promoted.
So sad that he will be remembered more (and arguably, deserves to be remembered more) for his derision than for his compositions.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2015, 02:11:08 AM
He's right. though: His ferocity was cheap.
"The only way to assert himself," Griffiths says, "was to be against everything else [...]" and there are some who think that's "new," right?
8)
And, not to belabor the point, it is at heart a little comical:
http://www.youtube.com/v/29E6GbYdB1c
Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2015, 04:47:28 AM
And, not to belabor the point, it is at heart a little comical:
http://www.youtube.com/v/29E6GbYdB1c
Including his own compositions, some of which he withdrew and others he revised beyond recognition.
Still at it (http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2011/09/music-pierre-boulez)
Many have argued that Mr Boulez's conducting career has taken too much from his composing. But Andrew Clements, a British critic, suggests that Mr Boulez's second career came at precisely the right time. "He had composed himself into a cul-de-sac," he explains. "Conducting became his new way of evangelising the 20th-century canon that had nurtured his own music. It has not deprived us of many great works." This is echoed by Alexander Goehr, a composer once strongly influenced by Mr Boulez. "His music is animated by a conception of history which is entirely bogus," says Mr Goehr. "His problems are similar to Mallarmé, who also got stuck trying to 'rewrite the world'. Although the failures of both men are preferable to most people's successes, the loss of intensity with Boulez was inevitable."
Yet Mr Boulez's composing output remains small. Although rumours abound of a future opera based on Beckett's "Waiting for Godot".
How appropriate.
;)
I think that, whether as a matter of painting himself into a compositional corner, or of having insufficient internal motivation to destroy that corner, burst out of the limitation . . . the conducting was a musical activity to which he could give himself unreservedly. His composition is a true gift to the musical world, mais un cadeau assez petit; where his conducting legacy is a major contribution.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2015, 08:51:04 AM
I think that, whether as a matter of painting himself into a compositional corner, or of having insufficient internal motivation to destroy that corner, burst out of the limitation . . . the conducting was a musical activity to which he could give himself unreservedly. His composition is a true gift to the musical world, mais un cadeau assez petit; where his conducting legacy is a major contribution.
Agreed.
I find his interpretation of the French repertory to be always very fine, and I have studied his music quite a lot. I admire what he has achieved. But I am not ignorant of the obvious difficulties he presents as a personality and his view of history I think is wrongheaded.
Quote from: James on March 26, 2015, 05:02:57 PM
He hasn't conducted in 3 years Robert, he's taking things easy at this point. He's lived a very productive life, and he is 90 years old now.
Thanks for that James. I did not realize that.....BTW I am quite fond of him.....
Robert
Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2015, 04:42:00 AM
A man who was a master of self-promotion, but who created so little work to be promoted.
So sad that he will be remembered more (and arguably, deserves to be remembered more) for his derision than for his compositions.
Some stray comments.
1 James is complaining about other people clogging the thread? While posting press releases? I think we need a new square on the Bingo card.
2 Boulez did not revolutionize music. He revolutionized government funding for the arts, to the detriment of the arts but for his own gain. He corrupted it beyond the wildest dreams of a Tamany Hall grafter.
3 Music's Lysenko, a Zhdanov wannabe, and a great conductor walk into a bar. Bartender says "Bonjour Pierre."
Boulez was a great conductor, but I don't give a twit about his thoughts on music which seem elitist and juvenile.
Furthermore, if we look back a little we see that talented composers and musicians have all through history said dumb stuff that shouldn't be taken seriously, out of envy, personal interests and other motives having little or nothing to do with music. Even if I'm not a member of Pierre's fan club (except for his conducting), I don't think he should be judged by things he said in the 50s.
Quote from: Abuelo Igor on March 28, 2015, 02:22:32 AM
Furthermore, if we look back a little we see that talented composers and musicians have all through history said dumb stuff that shouldn't be taken seriously, out of envy, personal interests and other motives having little or nothing to do with music. Even if I'm not a member of Pierre's fan club (except for his conducting), I don't think he should be judged by things he said in the 50s.
Agreed. Contrary to what I read in one of the posted articles I think he mellowed more than just a bit since then, and he has no problem to admit he was wrong in some points. In the 50s IMO he was just an angry young man who was uncertain because of his homosexuality, which was a big taboo back then.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 27, 2015, 07:35:12 PM
Boulez was a great conductor
Boulez was..? He's still alive. ;)
Quote from: chadfeldheimer on March 28, 2015, 02:40:20 AM
Boulez was..? He's still alive. ;)
But, he may not conduct again.
Quote from: Abuelo Igor on March 28, 2015, 02:22:32 AM
Furthermore, if we look back a little we see that talented composers and musicians have all through history said dumb stuff that shouldn't be taken seriously, out of envy, personal interests and other motives having little or nothing to do with music. Even if I'm not a member of Pierre's fan club (except for his conducting), I don't think he should be judged by things he said in the 50s.
Agreed, here, as well. However, while it would not be fair to judge him, quite, by stuff from half a century ago, some of those remarks should stand as exceptional examples of a young composer's blinkered arrogance.
Quote from: chadfeldheimer on March 28, 2015, 02:38:45 AM
Agreed. Contrary to what I read in one of the posted articles I think he mellowed more than just a bit since then, and he has no problem to admit he was wrong in some points. In the 50s IMO he was just an angry young man who was uncertain because of his homosexuality, which was a big taboo back then.
Mellowed only a little, and admission of wrong on only some select few points. The leopard has not changed his spots by any means. But call that a minor point.
Copy-and-paste, copy-and-paste, copy-and-paste...
Quote from: chadfeldheimer on March 28, 2015, 02:40:20 AM
Boulez was..? He's still alive. ;)
Some conductors continued to work until a very old age, I remember seeing a concert of Gunter Wand conducting Bruckner where he had to be wheeled up to the podium. People age differently, but I think if Boulez could continue to conduct he probably would have, but I think this probability is unlikely now, wouldn't you agree?
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 27, 2015, 02:54:47 AM
I'm a little late with the birthday celebration, but I searched for what was my first introduction to Pierre Boulez. It was a 1992 televised concert commemorating the 150th anniversary of the NY Phil, I believe it aired on the New York PBS station when I was living in Jersey. It was also my introduction to Le Mer. I recorded it on VHS back then and must have watched it 30 times. I'm really thrilled to have located it.
The concert also featured a conductor-less Candide Ovt, Strauss' Till Eulenspiegel with Mehta and Dvorak's New World Symphony with Masur.
https://www.youtube.com/v/5XVHLO9k3HI
Very enjoyable, thanks for posting. A great introduction to both Boulez and La Mer.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 28, 2015, 06:01:25 AM
Some conductors continued to work until a very old age, I remember seeing a concert of Gunter Wand conducting Bruckner where he had to be wheeled up to the podium. People age differently, but I think if Boulez could continue to conduct he probably would have, but I think this probability is unlikely now, wouldn't you agree?
Agreed. Still I would use the present when writing, talking about him. Just a matter of taste and no big deal, therefore the " ;)".
Quote from: Abuelo Igor on March 28, 2015, 02:22:32 AM
Furthermore, if we look back a little we see that talented composers and musicians have all through history said dumb stuff that shouldn't be taken seriously, out of envy, personal interests and other motives having little or nothing to do with music. Even if I'm not a member of Pierre's fan club (except for his conducting), I don't think he should be judged by things he said in the 50s.
And yet, many more very accomplished composers do not exhibit this behavior.
Quote from: James on March 28, 2015, 05:57:36 PM
It was very much the milieu of that time. I don't see anything wrong with being outspoken and critical. I actually agree with most of his pronouncements.
The mileu at the time? It was a mindset he helped create and enforce.
Quote from: sanantonio on March 28, 2015, 05:23:13 PM
And yet, many more very accomplished composers do not exhibit this behavior.
And some do. Try reading the prose writings of Richard Wagner, for one.
That said, I have no doubt Boulez was sincere in some of his pronouncements, while also deliberately exaggerative in others. Do you really believe he literally meant to blow up all the opera houses, a kind of Osama bin Laden of the classical music world? The statement was obviously metaphoric and hyperbolic. But I have equally no doubt that Boulez enjoyed tweaking the buttons of those Very Solemn People who are easily aggrieved when aim is taken at their sacred cows.
Charles Rosen was similarly both serious and blisteringly witty in his comment on Schoenberg's statement that there is still much good music to be written in C major. Yes, said the Chuckster; the only problem is that nobody has written any of it yet.
Quote from: ritter on March 29, 2015, 05:19:41 AM
...and the catalogue of the Boulez exhibition in Paris (and not paying much attention to all that absurdity and impertinence being flung around in the "Composer Discussion" forum on this towering figure in music >:( ):
Thanks for that sideways snipe. ;) What struck you as "absurdity and impertinence" I view as a thoughtful and objective appraisal of a composer/conductor by some folks whose views are not clouded by hero worship of this complicated personality.
Quote from: sanantonio on March 29, 2015, 06:24:20 AM
Thanks for that sideways snipe. ;) What struck you as "absurdity and impertinence" I view as a thoughtful and objective appraisal of a composer/conductor by some folks whose views are not clouded by hero worship of this complicated personality.
And note that part of the criticism centers on the idea that he should have/ought to compose more than he actually has.
Quote from: ritter on March 29, 2015, 05:19:41 AM(and not paying much attention to all that absurdity and impertinence being flung around in the "Composer Discussion" forum on this towering figure in music >:( )
This is exactly what I do when someone feels the need to badmouth a composer I admire. I pay them no mind. Opinions are like warts on a toad's back, we all have them. There are plenty of people who admire Boulez just as there are plenty of people who admire my numero uno composer, Delius. Visionary composers will always have their group of naysayers. I just wish people would talk more about the music they enjoy rather than feeling the need to dump on composers they don't enjoy. I've certainly been guilty of it, but I've learned to just keep my mouth shut and leave people to the music they love.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 29, 2015, 07:47:39 PM
And note that part of the criticism centers on the idea that he should have/ought to compose more than he actually has.
But do we criticize a composer who didn't write enough or do we criticize the actual music that is available for all to hear? If composing too little or not enough is a valid critique, then Dukas', Berg's, Webern's entire oeuvre should open them up for some vicious attacks.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2015, 09:31:42 PM
But do we criticize a composer who didn't write enough or do we criticize the actual music that is available for all to hear? If composing too little or not enough is a valid critique, then Dukas', Berg's, Webern's entire oeuvre should open them up for some vicious attacks.
The point of my posts was to point out that it was precisely the nature of Boulez's writings about destroying the past and creating a new music from the ground up, so to speak, that led to his silence.
Quote from: sanantonio on March 30, 2015, 02:12:35 AM
The point of my posts was to point out that it was precisely the nature of Boulez's writings about destroying the past and creating a new music from the ground up, so to speak, that led to his silence.
Also, there is the useful distinction between "badmouthing a composer" (which we none of us are doing), and considering the relation between what a composer has said about the art, and his actual practice of the art.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 30, 2015, 03:54:33 AM
Also, there is the useful distinction between "badmouthing a composer" (which we none of us are doing), and considering the relation between what a composer has said about the art, and his actual practice of the art.
That's a fair point.
Quote from: sanantonio on March 30, 2015, 02:12:35 AM
The point of my posts was to point out that it was precisely the nature of Boulez's writings about destroying the past and creating a new music from the ground up, so to speak, that led to his silence.
I don't care about Boulez's thoughts on music, but I admire his conducting. That's about it, though.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 30, 2015, 07:07:18 AM
I don't care about Boulez's thoughts on music, but I admire his conducting. That's about it, though.
And nothing wrong with that approach, either. (One of my points being, that his legacy as a conductor is substantial.)
Regarding Boulez's conducting, IMO his Debussy was especially good. Debussy is a composer for whom some conductors might underscore the lush, sensual, aspects. However, at heart, I think Debussy, as do most French composers, prioritized a transparent texture and a cool but color saturated aesthetic, and this is how Boulez treated the music.
His recordings of Debussy are among the best, IMO.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 30, 2015, 07:15:07 AM
And nothing wrong with that approach, either. (One of my points Over There being, that his legacy as a conductor is substantial.)
Fully agreed. :)
Quote from: sanantonio on March 30, 2015, 07:20:51 AM
His recordings of Debussy are among the best, IMO.
+1 I especially love his earlier recordings on Debussy on Columbia (Sony).
Quote from: sanantonio on March 30, 2015, 02:12:35 AM
The point of my posts was to point out that it was precisely the nature of Boulez's writings about destroying the past and creating a new music from the ground up, so to speak, that led to his silence.
What about his conducting career and in later years his age?
Quote from: chadfeldheimer on March 30, 2015, 07:28:02 AM
What about his conducting career and in later years his age?
I don't think the conducting career works effectively as mitigation. If he had wished to compose instead (or in addition to) he would have managed it (few personalities in the musical world are as effectively
managerial as he). Or, he gave himself to the conducting to the degree that he did, precisely
because (semi-)involuntarily, the composing mojo eluded him.
As for age, I sat very nearly next to
Elliott Carter in Boston's Symphony Hall for the première of his
Horn Concerto; he required assistance walking about. If
Boulez were motivated to compose, his age is not the problem.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 30, 2015, 10:09:35 AM
As for age, I sat very nearly next to Elliott Carter in Boston's Symphony Hall for the première of his Horn Concerto; he required assistance walking about. If Boulez were motivated to compose, his age is not the problem.
Carter admitted that after the
Symphonia, he had to give up large orchestral scores because it was uncomfortable to work with such large paper. While he managed to compose, it was only at the cost of limiting the kind of scoring he could create. Plus, I'm not sure Carter is representative of elderly composers. Look at Kurtág, who has gone from being fairly prolific to only being able to write a few bars of his
Endgame opera a day, only because of the ravages of age.
Perhaps the same holds for Boulez – while he could compose
something, his schedule and now the limitations of his eyesight may mean that the specific sort of music he wanted to compose was now beyond him.
Quote from: CRCulver on March 30, 2015, 11:38:57 AM
Carter admitted that after the Symphonia, he had to give up large orchestral scores because it was uncomfortable to work with such large paper. While he managed to compose, it was only at the cost of limiting the kind of scoring he could create. Plus, I'm not sure Carter is representative of elderly composers. Look at Kurtág, who has gone from being fairly prolific to only being able to write a few bars of his Endgame opera a day, only because of the ravages of age.
Perhaps the same holds for Boulez – while he could compose something, his schedule and now the limitations of his eyesight may mean that the specific sort of music he wanted to compose was now beyond him.
The perennial retort to eyesight problems is of course Delius. Even if you don't like his music.
And I am sure that if Maitre Pierre wanted a scribe for his dictation, more than a few Conservatoire students would be glad to assist him.
It is true that conducting and performing can get in the way, as they did for Mahler and Rachmaninov, but it does not require a full stop to composing, as those two gentlemen could attest.
Sibelius stopped composing after Tapiola and was silent for the last 30 years of his life and this doesn't seem to be an issue whenever we're listening to his music. I think the whole idea of Boulez not composing enough doesn't really make much sense as an argument, otherwise, we'd be arguing this fact about a lot of composers with smaller oeuvres. Has anyone ever seen Durufle's or Duparc's oeuvres? :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 30, 2015, 06:45:09 PM
Sibelius stopped composing after Tapiola and was silent for the last 30 years of his life and this doesn't seem to be an issue whenever we're listening to his music. I think the whole idea of Boulez not composing enough doesn't really make much sense as an argument, otherwise, we'd be arguing this fact about a lot of composers with smaller oeuvres. Has anyone ever seen Durufle's or Duparc's oeuvres? :)
I hope that if a genie ever grants Karl three wishes he won't waste one on "More Boulez."
Quote from: Ken B on March 30, 2015, 07:28:56 PM
I hope that if a genie ever grants Karl three wishes he won't waste one on "More Boulez."
Yeah, I wouldn't bank on Boulez composing anything else not that I really care one way or the other as I've already expressed my dislike for his music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 30, 2015, 07:31:38 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't bank on Boulez composing anything else not that I really care one way or the other as I've already expressed my dislike for his music.
Oh,
Bunny's got something for nearly everyone, I think 8)
It's rather as Henri Dutilleux said about Boulez in 2005 to Stuart Jeffries (the Guardian): 'At the moment I have no problems with him. I even like the fact that he is no longer certain, but is a man riven by doubt, as we all should be.' http://www.theguardian.com/music/2005/apr/28/classicalmusicandopera1
Aye. He was rather the poster child for The Terrible Certainty of Youth.
Which is one reason why A Certain Participant's posts are consistently amusing.
Pierre Boulez and John Cage met around 1949, I think, and remained correspondents for a decade or more. Their letters contain many gems concerning their thoughts about composing. For example, in a letter I am thinking around 1955 or so, Boulez writes to Cage that he has been re-reading Descartes and thinks a similar approach is needed vis a vis music, i.e. assuming nothing, taking nothing from the past and building up a system of composition from scratch.
:)
When Boulez says something like this:
"It is not enough to deface the Mona Lisa because that does not kill the Mona Lisa. All art of the past must be destroyed." — Pierre Boulez, 1971, quoted in the Sunday New York Times
I'm only reminded why I don't care about his thoughts on music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 31, 2015, 07:10:40 AM
When Boulez says something like this:
"It is not enough to deface the Mona Lisa because that does not kill the Mona Lisa. All art of the past must be destroyed." — Pierre Boulez, 1971, quoted in the Sunday New York Times
I'm only reminded why I don't care about his thoughts on music.
I can understand that attitude; I generally think that any information about the composer is unnecessary when appreciating the music - which should stand on its own and speak for itself. However, Boulez was a very prolific writer and thinker about music composition, and much of what he wrote is very interesting and instructive. After WWII there was a real sense among artists in general but specifically with the
Darmstadt group of wishing to make a complete break with the cultural history of Europe which had culminated in the Holocaust.
Boulez was merely expressing that need in many of his statements.
Quote from: James on March 31, 2015, 08:18:24 AM
After the war this was the attitude, "to re-build", etc. But anyone who knows Boulez & his music .. knows that he definitely was a result of what came before ("the traditional literature") .. his music is certainly informed & a synthesis/expansion of aspects of the revolutionary vocabulary he often analyzed and conducted in great detail .. plus the watershed offered by technology and his investment in that; and the world music/culture influences that increasingly pervaded the psyche's of many composers of his generation .. as cross-pollination/globalization increased.
From the book
Musings Of An Obsessed Fanboy by James.
I believe Boulez's thoughts and writings on music are extremely interesting, even if we may not agree with many of the things he has to say. More than that, I am convinced that a polemiciist of Boulez's calibre and intellectual stature was necessary when his figure erupted on the musical scene immediately after WW2. The danger of music returning to facile pre-war customs (embodied primarily in the neo-classical Stravinsky, but not only there) was real, and this could have led to this art form degenerating into something purely decorative and, in the end, culturally irrelevant. Boulez was obviously not alone in promoting this, but he has been the most eloquent (and the fiercest) advocate of this way of thinking.
And let us not fool ourselves: thanks to a large extent to Boulez's promotion (even if this is not exclusively his making), much music that had very little circulation in the 40s and 50s is now considered essential to most music-lovers (like it or not, that's another issue) and is almost part of the mainstream. For instance, I cannot think of anyone who has made more for the cause of Anton Webern than Pierre Boulez.
Another criticism aimed at Boulez is even harder to understand. He seems to be held accountable for pointing out that there is music that matters and music that does not. Again, we might agree or not with what Boulez has to say, but he does have a point. I think I've mentioned this before, but I for instance much enjoy the music of Reynaldo Hahn (about whom Boulez has talked in dismissive terms), but I don't need much convincing as to the fact that Hahn's Piano concerto is nowhere near as important for the history of music as (or a product of comparable quality to) Webern's roughly contemporary Concerto op. 24, or that Orff's De Temporum fine comoedia is irrelevant when set aside Berio's Sinfonía (both pieces also being roughly contemporary). But if we believe that "anything goes", or think along the lines that "I like this, therefore it is good", or consider that, for instance, Gounod is as relevant (or as good a composer) as Wagner, then of course we'll have little time to spare for Boulez's writings.
While on his proselytizing mission, Boulez the composer has managed to produce a small but extraordinarily rich output. Criticizing Boulez for not having composed more verges on the bizarre. As Mirror Image rightly points out (and John has clearly said he dislikes Boulez's music), we can say the same about many other major figures in music. John mentions several names, and I would add one more: none other than Richard Wagner. I'd rather have one Wagner (with his 10 mature operas) than many composers who wrote innumerable stage works (and who come a dime a dozen). I'd rather have the self-critical Boulez with Le Marteau, Pli selon Pli, the Second piano sonata and Répons, than many a composer out there whose opus 200 is as irrelevant as his opus 2.
And even more: while composing and writing, Pierre Boulez had a conducting career that was in perfect consonance with his musical thought. Thanks to him, we have had impressive performances (in the concert hall and on record) of perhaps not the widest of repertoires, but usually with the highest musical standards and with remarkable insights--I'm thinking of his Debussy, his Wagner, his Mahler. But Boulez the conductor didn't limit himself to this ilustrious international conducting career. He created (from scratch, and for years with no state funding) the Domaine Musical, which presented so much great music in Paris when it was being ignored there (and elsewhere), and then secured state funding for IRCAM and the EIC, arguably the best showcases for modern music in the past 40 years. But he's criticized for focusing on what he thought was worthwhile. What do we expect, for him to focus on what he thinks is not wortwhile? Then let's accuse Furtwängler of not having conducted enough Shostakovich (if any), or ask ourselves why Abbado never did Puccini at La Scala or elsewhere.
The above, I'm glad to say, is not hero-worship, it's simply an acknowledgement of the immense contribution this man has made to the art of music over the past 70 years, which makes him a figure that stands out like few others in the history of the art form.
Note: this was posted while on holidays in the Scottish Highlands, on an IPad with Spanish auto-correct, so it'll be plagued with typos. I apologize for this, and will try to edit the text as soon as possible!
Overall, a thoughtful and measured response, and a pleasure to read.
Quote from: ritter on March 31, 2015, 09:00:50 AM
And let us not fool ourselves: thanks to a large extent to Boulez's promotion (even if this is not exclusively his making), much music that had very little circulation in the 40s and 50s is now considered essential to most music lovers (like it or not, that's another issue) and is almost part of the mainstream. For instance, I cannot think of anyone who has made more for the cause of Anton Webern than Pierre Boulez.
I'm not sure it's a horse race, but your statement here seems to make absolutely light of
Robert Craft. Maybe
Boulez has done more, maybe not.
Quote from: James on March 31, 2015, 08:27:14 AM
John Cage and Morton Feldman, composers who Boulez tars with that same brush. 'I met them when I went to New York in 1952, and I found they were not eager to acquire knowledge. They were already gods, they thought, and God is never wrong. If you are "right", you never acquire anything. Acquire and destroy, acquire and destroy, then go further. That's what composers should do. I don't see this type of evolution in Feldman or Cage.'
Of course, it is entirely possible to be enthusiastic about both Feldman
and Boulez...
Quote from: EigenUser on March 31, 2015, 10:54:56 AM
Of course, it is entirely possible to be enthusiastic about both Feldman and Boulez...
Yes, and regardless of any of the latter's "pronouncements" 8) "They were not eager to acquire knowledge"; what a pompous twit!
James, do Boulez a big favor on this thread: don't cite anything he's said ;)
Quote from: karlhenning on March 31, 2015, 10:58:18 AM
James, do Boulez a big favor on this thread: don't cite anything he's said ;)
Well, apart from that
one thing he said about the things he had said. 8)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ggs-Tf5AL._SX425_.jpg)
This arrived in the mail today, woo hoo! Ripping to iTunes now.
Quote from: North Star on March 31, 2015, 12:21:51 PM
Well, apart from that one thing he said about the things he had said. 8)
Ya, I sounded real dumb in those days . . . .
Quote from: James on March 31, 2015, 01:47:02 PM
but I do agree with what Boulez is saying.
Of course you do. You'd agree with Boulez if he said you were capable of flying.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 31, 2015, 03:43:38 PM
Of course you do. You'd agree with Boulez if he said you were capable of flying.
Some things we can always count on 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on March 31, 2015, 04:37:50 PM
Some things we can always count on 8)
You are correct, sir! ;D
http://soundcheck.wnyc.org/story/10-great-works-20th-century-pierre-boulezs-90th-birthday/
Anyone else see this? Even though the last one is funny, considering who wrote it, it's a very good list, even if I don't entirely agree with it. I've listened to Répons a lot lately, especially a few recent broadcast recordings, and I hear new things in it every time. Such a great piece.
The man firmly convinced that his artistic blindspots are his signal virtue ;)
(Oh, and his "Mini Me," too.)
Quote from: ritter on March 31, 2015, 09:00:50 AM
Another criticism aimed at Boulez is even harder to understand. He seems to be held accountable for pointing out that there is music that matters and music that does not.
I do not see that at all. There is a substantial population on GMG who agree with the principle that some artworks matter more than others. (I think there must be an interesting discussion to be had on the question "Is there some art which does not matter, at all?") I think one can object artistically and intellectually to
Boulez's particularly prejudices (and the prejudices do not become Artistic Truth because, you know, they are
Boulez's — not that
you believe that, dear chap: there is someone else flogging that dolphin) without backing into "Well, it's
all Great Music, isn't it?"
As I said in the other thread, it all matters (in a subjective world). What doesn't matter, IMO, is whether it is "great" or not. That is a completely unnecessary consideration in order to appreciate a piece of music.
Surprising revelations (shocking, actually) by Boulez in France's ForumOpera: here (http://www.forumopera.com/actu/pierre-boulez-jai-toujours-reve-dun-bayreuth-francais) ;D
Do the French also do the April Fools thing?
Quote from: Abuelo Igor on April 01, 2015, 03:08:54 PM
Do the French also do the April Fools thing?
Poisson d'Avril!
Quote from: karlhenning on April 01, 2015, 03:38:59 AM
I do not see that at all. There is a substantial population on GMG who agree with the principle that some artworks matter more than others. (I think there must be an interesting discussion to be had on the question "Is there some art which does not matter, at all?") I think one can object artistically and intellectually to Boulez's particularly prejudices (and the prejudices do not become Artistic Truth because, you know, they are Boulez's — not that you believe that, dear chap: there is someone else flogging that dolphin) without backing into "Well, it's all Great Music, isn't it?"
Well, it's more snyprrr-like in syntax than is usual for Karl, but I think I agree.
>:D
Quote from: James on April 01, 2015, 06:05:21 AM
But you should be able to understand the attraction people have to great work, and how over time it gathers meaning. You should also understand critical thinking and what that entails. I enjoy immersing myself in the best things in life .. especially the creative arts, I find the benefits to be enormous, and sure .. I can listen to anything I want to .. but I also like having a basis for comparison to form sound judgements on music & its qualities - to understand what is what, and why, etc.
Zzzzz....
Quote from: Ken B on April 01, 2015, 04:48:59 PM
Well, it's more snyprrr-like in syntax than is usual for Karl, but I think I agree.
>:D
Must be those
Shostakovich quartets I've been listening to . . . .
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 01, 2015, 06:54:57 PM
Zzzzz....
OTOH,
James of all people saying "you should understand critical thinking and what that entails":
Priceless.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 02, 2015, 01:50:05 AM
OTOH, James of all people saying "you should understand critical thinking and what that entails": Priceless.
It's time for James bingo! ;D
Quote from: springrite on January 17, 2008, 10:04:07 AM
Oh, boy! If there is one work by Boulez I'd love to hear LIVE it would be Le Marteau!
+ 1
Seems like the sort of thing that should be taken into private messages...
Anyhow, here, have a live recording of Rituel that I found recently:
http://www.npo.nl/ntr-podium/27-09-2011/NPS_1190073
Quote from: James on April 03, 2015, 10:20:26 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/dYdOjdP5-oI
Thanks for this, James... AFAIK, this is the only published arrangement by Boulez of music by another composer. Ravel's original
Frontispice for two pianos (5 hands!) is an enigmatic little piece, and this orchestration is quite brilliant, I'd say. Until now, it could only be heard (with the last couple of seconds annoyingly truncated) in the webpage of Universal Edition. Great to have it available in Pintscher and the EIC's performance...
Quote from: James on April 05, 2015, 02:28:30 PM
Surprisingly, he made 2 arrangements .. one for ensemble published in 1987 (it's listed separately), then in 2007 this lavish orchestration.
Is there any press out there of him talking about it? And UE's site is missing some scores (i.e. Livre pour Cordes) .. withdrawn? other publisher?
I don't recall having read anything by Boulez himself on this arrangement... :-[
The YouTube you posted, though, is the 1987 version (see the credits at the end). The 2007 seems to be for expanded forces.
As for the
Livre pour cordes, it's published by Heugel (now part of Alphonse Leduc), as are the
Livre pour quatour,
Le Soleil des eaux and
Le Visage nuptial. Here's the link: http://www.alphonseleduc.com/EN/recherche.php?q=boulez
Cheers,
Beautiful orchestration. Never heard it before. I don't want to spark an out of place argument, but it sounds very Feldman like to me, in a good way.
I'm thinking about this piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiVhS20ES3k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiVhS20ES3k)
Quote from: ritter on April 05, 2015, 02:34:47 PM
As for the Livre pour cordes, it's published by Heugel (now part of Alphonse Leduc), as are the Livre pour quatour, Le Soleil des eaux and Le Visage nuptial. Here's the link: http://www.alphonseleduc.com/EN/recherche.php?q=boulez
I hate Alphonse-Leduc. They charge an arm and a leg for Messiaen. His opera would cost well over $2000, I think (if you buy all of the acts/tableaux).
Quote from: Artem on April 05, 2015, 05:12:35 PM
I'm thinking about this piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiVhS20ES3k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiVhS20ES3k)
Woah, it does!
That publication doesn't really look like the most trustworthy source for this, Im afraid ::) . They're just quoting (in passing) reports from a couple of years ago. I had read the Godot opera was a commission for La Scala by Stéphane Lissner (who is no longer at La Scala), but we've never heard of it again. If the première were really to take place in 2105 at a theatre of the calibre of La Scala ior any other major house, it would aleaday appear on their program.
But we can always hope.... ;)
I still think the "Boulez composes Godot" story was a lark, which has just taken on an amusing life of its own (underscoring its point).
I am assuming "2105" is a typo. Although that would allow Boulez enough time to complete the work. And revise it several times.
8)
Fans awaiting Godot. This makes no-one but Karl suspicious?
By Pierre "Pozzo" Boulez.
I've always been skeptical that Boulez would ever write an opera (on Godot or anything else), one reason being that he's a notoriously slow worker who insists on constant revising, and an opera is less open to revision because of the fixed nature of the libretto. Boulez's vocal works have also been primarily for female voices, and it would be hard to imagine him writing a lengthy work for four males (with the likely addition of a boy soprano). Besides, what kind of libretto would have been created on Godot? Most likely it would have been from the original French text, but would the Chaplinesque comic vaudeville of the text lend itself to Boulez's style? Boulez is many things, but funny he's not. Even the most obviously operatic section, Lucky's extended monologue in Act One, would at the least pose major problems of compression.
As a friend wrote me, "Boulez has wanted to write an opera at least since he saw the première of Genet's The Screens in the early 60's. Genet even told Playboy he was going to do the libretto at the time, but Genet didn't actually embark on a libretto until he was persuaded to write one by Chéreau in the early 80's. Boulez was underwhelmed by the sketches Genet came up with, which became moot when Genet died." Genet's plays seem more obviously suitable for operatic treatment than Beckett's, but given that Les Paravents has been rarely produced, calls for a huge cast, and is usually cut heavily, again the problem of creating a libretto seems very difficult.
Again from the same friend, and I believe this is a quotation from Boulez: "Some like, let's say, Beckett (who is, I think, a theatrical genius), have a very strong visual imagination but put it all into the text, so that there is no room for anything else. The text has all its significance by itself and there is no empty space."
Of course. Beckett's theatrical and verbal rhythms are often so precise (and concise) that it's hard to imagine what more could be added by any music. The ending of the play, in both French and English:
VLADIMIR: Relève ton pantalon. / Pull on your trousers.
ESTRAGON: Comment? / What?
VLADIMIR: Relève ton pantalon. / Pull on your trousers.
ESTRAGON: Que j'enlève mon pantalon? / You want me to pull off my trousers?
VLADIMIR: RE-lève ton pantalon. / Pull ON your trousers.
ESTRAGON: C'est vrai. / True.
VLADIMIR: Alors, on y va? / Well? Shall we go?
ESTRAGON: Allons-y. / Yes, let's go. (They do not move.)
And how could Boulez or anyone else "compose" the drollest section of the play, the extended pantomime with the hat in Act Two?
There's Boulez all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet. 0:)
Quote from: James on April 18, 2015, 05:18:47 AM
Boulez's Rituel and the Originel from "...explosante-fixe...," .
One of the greatest works in his oeuvre, and in my opinion one that would seem to be highly "accessible" for the usual audiences, and also attractive to younger ones.
Quote from: Cato on April 18, 2015, 05:28:43 AM
One of the greatest works in his oeuvre, and in my opinion one that would seem to be highly "accessible" for the usual audiences, and also attractive to younger ones.
...explosante-fixe... or
Rituel?
Quote from: Cato on April 18, 2015, 05:28:43 AM
One of the greatest works in his oeuvre, and in my opinion one that would seem to be highly "accessible" for the usual audiences, and also attractive to younger ones.
Tomorrow (April 19) at 3pm, David Robertson conducts the Juilliard Orchestra in Rituel at NYC's Avery Fisher Hall.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 18, 2015, 06:19:46 AM
Tomorrow (April 19) at 3pm, David Robertson conducts the Juilliard Orchestra in Rituel at NYC's Avery Fisher Hall.
Cool.
Quote from: North Star on April 18, 2015, 05:40:07 AM
...explosante-fixe... or Rituel?
I was focused on the former, but the same could with little difficulty be said for the latter as well.
Quote from: James on April 19, 2015, 06:10:28 AM
David Robertson Leads the Juilliard Orchestra
Juilliard Orchestra
Sunday, April 19, 3:00pm
David Robertson conducts at Avery Fisher Hall.
This was a very fine concert, with a well-conceived and beautifully executed program that started with Debussy and Stravinsky and thus traced some important roots of Boulez's style. Indeed, in Rituel Robertson acted more like a traffic cop, just setting each of the groups in motion, than our usual idea of a conductor. I must say this performance of the piece was much more secure and impressive than the NYPhil under Alan Gilbert in the excessively reverberant Park Avenue Armory a couple of years ago. Nothing scares these Juilliard kids. And this piece, rather uncharacteristic of Boulez in its steady pulse and clearly defined motifs, could turn out to be one of his most popular. The concert was well-attended, and the audience seemed to love it.
Splendid.
Quote from: James on April 19, 2015, 03:31:04 PM
Nice .. the audience .. various ages? Or mostly older folk?
A good mix as far as I could see.
Cross-posted from the New Releases thread:
Quote from: ritter on April 21, 2015, 02:23:19 PM
This has just appeared in France. The Diotima Quartet playing Boulez's "revised" Livre pour quatuor (on the Megadisc label):
(http://www.megadisc-classics.com/sites/www.megadisc-classics.com/files/imagecache/albumcover-full/covers/BOULEZ-CD-7796-200x200px.jpg)
http://www.megadisc-classics.com/album/pierre-boulez-livre-pour-quatuor-r%C3%A9vis%C3%A9
I saw a Boulez exhibition today at the Cité de la Musique in Paris. Well worth the visit. Two memorable things were a dance accompaniment to Marteau sans Maître, and a presentation by Boulez of In Memoriam Bruno M. Some of the things he had to say about Early music and about setting words also.
One surprise was that the curators made so little of his relationship with Stockhausen.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 27, 2015, 07:29:23 AM
I saw a Boulez exhibition today at the Cité de la Musique in Paris. Well worth the visit. Two memorable things were a dance accompaniment to Marteau sans Maître, and a presentation by Boulez of In Memoriam Bruno M. Some of the things he had to say about Early music and about setting words also.
One surprise was that the curators made so little of his relationship with Stockhausen.
Nice! I think today was the last day it was open to the public. I coudn't make it to Paris to see it, but do have the catalogue (which is full of interesting documents)...
Who in France is writing modernist music in the Boulez style today? Who picks up the mantle?
Clearly not Grisey etc. Their music is too just sensual.
You think Boulez's music is not sensual?
Quote from: Mandryka on June 28, 2015, 09:37:55 PM
Who in France is writing modernist music in the Boulez style today? Who picks up the mantle?
Clearly not Grisey etc. Their music is too just sensual.
Marc-Andre Dalbavie and Pascal Dusapin come to mind. Neither's music sounds "like" Boulez, but both might be considered carrying forward Boulez's priorities.
I'm lucky to live close enough to Ojai, California, and enjoyed the Ojai Music Festival this year. Saw A Pierre Dream: A Portrait of Pierre Boulez for the second time (first time in Chicago), and they also performed both Derive's, Dialogue de l'ombre double, a couple Improvisations sur Mallarmé, and Sonatine. Steven Schick was pretty cool to watch as well. Also some nice little interviews about Boulez and his several experiences in Ojai. Beautiful place indeed, and amazing oranges!
http://www.ojaifestival.org/festivals/2015-festival/2015-festival-schedule/
Not sure how much Boulez they'll do next year. Unfortunately for me, the LAPhil doesn't program any of his music, but not many orchestras in this country do, except for the CSO. However, I don't visit too many concert halls in the U.S., so I'm not quite sure about that.
Quote from: karlhenning on June 29, 2015, 02:53:46 AM
You think Boulez's music is not sensual?
Here's a conjecture for refutation, Popper style.
He became more sensual the more he lost inspiration. Explosante-Fixe (inspired; hoorah) is not sensual; Sur incises (derivitive, boo) is.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 30, 2015, 10:11:16 PM
Here's a conjecture for refutation, Popper style.
He became more sensual the more he lost inspiration. Explosante-Fixe (inspired; hoorah) is not sensual; Sur incises (derivitive, boo) is.
I guess I'm more interested in the less inspired stuff (though I'd beg to differ!). I love the music of Boulez that Ken so aptly described as (I paraphrase) "shards discarded by Ravel". Though, I doubt he meant it in a flattering way...
In an interview, Stockhausen said that he was once interested in the music of Boulez, but he became too "dry" for him (i.e. later works).
Quote from: Mandryka on June 30, 2015, 10:11:16 PM
Here's a conjecture for refutation, Popper style.
He became more sensual the more he lost inspiration.
What is your metric to judge loss of inspiration? ;)
Quote from: EigenUser on July 01, 2015, 01:57:11 AM
In an interview, Stockhausen said that he was once interested in the music of Boulez, but he became too "dry" for him (i.e. later works).
They were old biddy gossips, the lot of them 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on July 01, 2015, 03:40:36 AM
What is your metric to judge loss of inspiration? ;)
The number of exciting new ideas. The unpredictability.
You understand both how questionable, and how subjective, that is? :)
I'd say it was indexical, rather than subjective. Subjective makes these judgements sound neither true nor false. But I do think they have assertability conditions.
Big topic.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 28, 2015, 09:37:55 PMWho in France is writing modernist music in the Boulez style today? Who picks up the mantle?
That isn't the point. Boulez has his own voice.
Artists should strive to find their own as well.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 30, 2015, 10:11:16 PM
Here's a conjecture for refutation, Popper style.
He became more sensual the more he lost inspiration. Explosante-Fixe (inspired; hoorah) is not sensual; Sur incises (derivitive, boo) is.
But I find Explosante-Fixe to be sensual!!!!
Quote from: EigenUser on July 01, 2015, 01:57:11 AM
I guess I'm more interested in the less inspired stuff (though I'd beg to differ!). I love the music of Boulez that Ken so aptly described as (I paraphrase) "shards discarded by Ravel". Though, I doubt he meant it in a flattering way...
It is an apt phrase isn't it? But, modulo the assumption that Boulez ever had inspiration, I agree with Mandryka. Explosante-fixe is at least interesting. Too sensual perhaps. >:D
Quote from: James on July 01, 2015, 06:05:51 AM
That isn't the point. Boulez has his own voice.
Artists should strive to find their own as well.
"Do something original." -- Wagner's advice to his heirs
Quote from: Ken B on July 01, 2015, 08:19:39 AM
"Do something original." -- Wagner's advice to his heirs
Makes me wish that
Wagner had said something original.
—oh, wait! He did. And not always to his credit 8)
Quote from: Ken B on July 01, 2015, 08:19:39 AM
"Do something original." -- Wagner's advice to his heirs
Well, in an age when avantgarde, revolution and innovation reign supreme, the most original thing one can do is to be conservative. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Florestan on July 03, 2015, 03:51:21 AM
Well, in an age when avantgarde, revolution and innovation reign supreme, the most original thing one can do is to be conservative. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Denise Scott BrownBasically, the idea is that with everyone striving to be revolutionary, you will be most revolutionary if you try to be ordinary.
Granted, musically in the late 20
th century, that resulted in
some composers retreating into mere dullness . . . .
Quote
Basically, the idea is that with everyone striving to be revolutionary, you will be most revolutionary if you try to be ordinary.
Which was my argument (ignored) to my kids for not getting tattoos.
::)
Yeesh
Hmm, and that 80' could not fit on a single disc, eh?
Not really a complaint at the packaging inefficiency; it does underscore just how little work there is, in a peculiar and ironic way.
I'm thinking Ponthus wanted to program the material in a certain way .. you know, how each track flows from one to the next in the best possible way. This can also mean breaking things up, no overkill, no extraneous cramming of it all together, but pacing. Whatever it is .. I love the music, and it's for the price of 1 disc, so it's all good. Bring it on.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 01, 2015, 04:04:58 AM
You understand both how questionable, and how subjective, that is? :)
I do, but I concur nonetheless. I would argue that there's an element of cliché in Boulez's later work (such as the use of perpetuum mobile in Messagesquisse, or as I wrote in 2010 about Dérive II: "scale figures, repeated note motifs, and even long legato solo passages for violin, cello, and English horn") that I would not find in his more varied and (IMO) less predictable earlier work.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 30, 2015, 06:52:33 AM
I do, but I concur nonetheless. I would argue that there's an element of cliché in Boulez's later work (such as the use of perpetuum mobile in Messagesquisse, or as I wrote in 2010 about Dérive II: "scale figures, repeated note motifs, and even long legato solo passages for violin, cello, and English horn") that I would not find in his more varied and (IMO) less predictable earlier work.
Thank you.
ah Pierre...you're getting old...But I still love your music!
Quote from: karlhenning on December 30, 2015, 04:25:28 AM
Hmm, and that 80' could not fit on a single disc, eh?
Not really a complaint at the packaging inefficiency; it does underscore just how little work there is, in a peculiar and ironic way.
Just be thankful there is not two single discs. That would make two ugly covers instead of one.
Quote from: The new erato on December 30, 2015, 11:43:28 PM
Just be thankful there is not two single discs. That would make two ugly covers instead of one.
Lol yeah! But with the extra space it would have been nice if Structures was included even though it's for two pianists and not one......
http://www.lemonde.fr/disparitions/article/2016/01/06/mort-du-compositeur-et-chef-d-orchestre-pierre-boulez_4842501_3382.html (http://www.lemonde.fr/disparitions/article/2016/01/06/mort-du-compositeur-et-chef-d-orchestre-pierre-boulez_4842501_3382.html)
My favourite composer....my favourite conductor......Boulez has devoted so much to the world of music, and has been an inspiration for me to one day become a composer and conductor down the track. Without Boulez, the world would have been a dreadful place for classical music. Rest In Peace, Pierre Boulez.
The title of this thread actually gave me a huge chill throughout my entire body when reading it....I was in disbelief! I felt like someone very close had passed away....yet I am only a fan of his work, but still!
90 years old, and gave so much to music, so much to celebrate with Boulez. Thank you for everything! You will be missed!
Rest in peace, you old humbug 8)
Composer Pierre Boulez dies at 90 (http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-35241250)
Pierre Boulez, classical music's maverick, dies aged 90 (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jan/06/pierre-boulez-classical-musics-maverick-dies-aged-90)
(* bows in tribute to the great artist *)
Well, it was bound to happen eventually. Just not so soon is all.
I was just listening to a section of his DGG recording of the Mahler Sixth Symphony this morning. For some reason I was expecting him to recover from his illnesses and come back to the podium!
A marvelous figure in music!
NY Times: Pierre Boulez, French Composer, Dies at 90 (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/07/arts/music/pierre-boulez-french-composer-dies-90.html?module=Notification&version=BreakingNews®ion=FixedTop&action=Click&contentCollection=BreakingNews&contentID=56879848&pgtype=Homepage&_r=0)
I enjoyed his music a lot.
Quote from: Cato on January 06, 2016, 03:19:04 AM
I was just listening to a section of his DGG recording of the Mahler Sixth Symphony this morning. For some reason I was expecting him to recover from his illnesses and come back to the podium!
A marvelous figure in music!
Verily.
His Mahler is really the best Mahler around....in fact, i can't think of any of his recordings as a conductor that have been bettered in the repertoire he specialised in (especially 20th century music) by anyone else!
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on December 30, 2015, 11:56:11 AM
ah Pierre...you're getting old...But I still love your music!
I suppose you were old after all....the greatest musical mind to have ever existed. I will always love the music of Pierre Boulez 1925-2016.
Ninety, and with all that music written, IRCAM founded, working with others generously, constantly advocating and promoting new and newer works, all those concerts conducted, and all that repertoire recorded.
This was beyond a formidable contribution, a protean constantly inquisitive and creative mind, and as protean a worker.
His death feels to me like a major milestone event. I'm sure it does to others of all ages.
He was, simply, phenomenally amazing, and there have been very few anywhere near like in our long recorded history.
A well-lived life, for sure, and his absence creates a gaping void.
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 06, 2016, 03:47:31 AM
Ninety, and with all that music written, IRCAM founded, working with others generously, constantly advocating and promoting new and newer works,all those concerts conducted, and all that repertoire recorded.
This was beyond a formidable contribution, a protean constantly inquisitive and creative mind, and as protean a worker.
His death feels to me like a major milestone event. I'm sure it does to others of all ages.
He was, simply, phenomenally amazing, and there have been very few anywhere near like in our long recorded history.
A well-lived life, for sure, and his absence creates a gaping void.
+1 all the way. Truly unique, I can't imagine if there would be anyone so influential for contemporary music again!
So sorry to hear he died, sad news. Great conductor, I love his recordings of Ravel, Debussy, Bartok and Schönberg. RIP.
Sad news indeed. Such a prolific conductor, and composer. I have the set of complete Webern works, conducted by him, and am fond of his recordings of Bartok's piano concertos.
My favourite memory of him is a concert I watched on PBS about 5 or 6 years ago, him conducting Mahler's 7th Symphony with the San Francisco SO (he was filling in for a sick Michael Tilson Thomas), if memory serves me correctly. A magical concert, which really helped solidify my new found love at that time of Mahler's 7th symphony.
Rest In Peace, Maestro.
He lived a long, incredibly productive, meaningful life and was a musical icon as both a Bad Boy Rebel and an Older and Wiser mentor figure. We should all be so lucky. :)
(http://www.artsjournal.com/lifesapitch/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Pierre-Boulez-bikini-girls.jpg)
Here are some more Boulez pics from the blog "Composers Doing Normal Shit".
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/e3a94ec65eaf24dd83e17d2e5181f74a/tumblr_nltn0b4Qpx1t06hqzo3_500.png)
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/c7766ec90f3b9d739b08bbc28590fd3d/tumblr_nyco2taFGm1t06hqzo1_1280.jpg)
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/2cd174502bf5bc6a453a39d736111687/tumblr_n28kr4KKaI1t06hqzo1_1280.jpg)
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/bf6f0c951bf1a40d1d96517daace6110/tumblr_niqzkcENM11t06hqzo1_400.jpg)
RIP maestro! I will definitely have to play some of his music today.
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 06, 2016, 04:32:46 AM
Sad news indeed. Such a prolific conductor, and composer. I have the set of complete Webern works, conducted by him, and am fond of his recordings of Bartok's piano concertos.
My favourite memory of him is a concert I watched on PBS about 5 or 6 years ago, him conducting Mahler's 7th Symphony with the San Francisco SO (he was filling in for a sick Michael Tilson Thomas), if memory serves me correctly. A magical concert, which really helped solidify my new found love at that time of Mahler's 7th symphony.
Rest In Peace, Maestro.
Had this wrong. He (Boulez) was filling in for Riccardo Muti, who was ill. Boulez conducted the Chicago SO, not the San Francisco SO. I think it was October 2010
This was inevitable at his age and scarcely surprising. Few musical minds have so dominated the past century and achieved so much. I'm rarely sentimental about such things, but I shall have to put on Pli Selon Pli or Le Marteau today. I was fortunate to have seen him conduct numerous times - both his own music, including Marteau, Sur Incises, Répons, both Dérives; and works by others like Stravinsky, Ravel, Berg, and above all Mahler, whose 3rd and 6th received coruscating performances with the LSO at Carnegie Hall that belied his reputation for sterile exactitude. (I don't think his studio recordings, especially for DGG, always did him justice.) I was also fortunate to have met him briefly backstage after a beautiful performance of Marteau at Carnegie's Weill Hall, and he was nice enough to sign my score. I only regret that he never brought Pli Selon Pli to our shores, as in my opinion it is his masterpiece.
I think I have a disc where he plays Ravel (gets up and put the miner's lamp on for a 15 minnute search). Yes, I do !
I also have some of his Mahler and Bruckner. Since I don't much care for his Bruckner and am not in the mood for MAhler today, I'll settle for the Ravel. Menuet antique will do.
I've always loved his conducting.
Sad news, but inevitable as I believe he was in very poor health the last few years of his life. I think I'll listen to his first recording of Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle as a tribute to a great musician.
RIP.
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 06, 2016, 03:27:10 AM
His Mahler is really the best Mahler around....in fact, i can't think of any of his recordings as a conductor that have been bettered in the repertoire he specialised in (especially 20th century music) by anyone else!
This could be debated of course. Not to derail this thread.
A pity, though it was a long life. It took me a long time to appreciate him. I was in chorus for a Mahler 8 he conducted at the London Proms about 1974. It was both a good and a bad experience and I steadfastly ignored him and his work for 20 or so years. Gradually I came very much to appreciate his conducting, Mahler, Stravinsky, Debussy; but not his Wagner. Very few have had his influence and the time across which he could watch that influence have its effect.
I will go and listen to something of his now.
Mike
This is a sad day, but I at least can only say, with all my heart, "THANK YOU!" for all what Pierre Boulez has given us over his long and illustrious career, as composer, conductor, essayist and teacher. His art and his thinking have accompanied me for almost 40 years now, and every time I experienced him live (from the Ring in Bayreuth in 1979 up to a Mahler Sixth in Berlin in 2008) was an occasion to cherish.
Now listening to the CD with Éclat/Mutiples and Rituel in memoriam Bruno Maderna:
(http://cdn.discogs.com/fTJdyiOFE4YLizFgMvF6afxTpl4=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-2484033-1394804164-8981.jpeg.jpg)
He was a remarkable musician. I didn't care for his music at all, but really admired many of his recordings as a conductor of other composers. Having not heard so much a peep out of him for several years, I knew something was wrong or certainly going wrong. The many hours of joy, wonderment, and sheer passion this man has brought me through the music of Bartok, Ravel, Debussy, Berg, Schoenberg, etc. is something I can never forget and I think we all should raise a glass to Boulez's memory. R.I.P. Maestro Boulez.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2016, 07:12:59 AM
I didn't care for his music at all
nor for his pronouncements on other people's music.
Quote from: ritter on January 06, 2016, 07:08:16 AM
from the Ring in Bayreuth in 1979
Boulez wasn't suitable to Wagner, in my opinion; the clarity, precision, rhythmic agility of his conducting style were better for the 20th century composers.
Das Rheingold of the Centenary Ring is pretty good anyway, especially because of a superb Zednik as Loge.
I most recently explored the recordings he made for Columbia/Sony and found many of them to be truly extraordinary. The same for his Erato legacy. I always found his recordings for DG to have unpleasantly congested sound which didn't suit the clarity that was his signature style.
I also found his non-electronic compositions to be uniquely fascinating, although I always had the sneaking suspicion that I wasn't quite getting it.
Not my favourite Mahler, but his Mahler recordings were the ones that helped me understand (hear) what's in the music and truly begin to appreciate them, especially 7 and 6.
Can't think of another French conductor doing great Mahler worthy of investigation. (Maybe I just did not notice?)
Loved his Debussy recordings of la Mer and Nocturnes on an old DGG LP. I do not know of better versions:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-35241250
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 06, 2016, 05:12:12 AM
... above all Mahler, whose 3rd and 6th received coruscating performances with the LSO at Carnegie Hall that belied his reputation for sterile exactitude.
This, so many times over. Live, Boulez's performances (and in particular his Mahler) were anything but analytical and unemotional. The LSO 6th in London in 2000 remains one of the most memorable performances of anything I've been lucky enough to attend.
As a composer I wish he had written more, and revised less. But the best of what he left us is something to be cherished.
Pli selon pli d'un linceul effroyablement triste.
Right now listening to this:
(http://cdn.discogs.com/cxcjMAna-fhEd4UKaFPjFCaUD7w=/fit-in/600x566/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-6313251-1435111919-2570.jpeg.jpg)
His Bruckner leaves me cold. His Mahler is quite good, but invariably exchews extremes of dynamics and emotions. His Ravel is up there with the best. He made the NYPO play like a refined band. They in turn injected a welcome grit to the music. His NY years were a quite interesting era. Other than that he surfed and coasted on the crest, with all the world's orchestras waiting for 'Pierre' to give them a nod. There was always a bit of condescension to his demeanor and I think it spilled into his music-making.
I must mention that one of the greatest Gurrelieder performances ever came from Boulez and Jess Thomas:
[asin]B000002816[/asin]
My two favorite Boulez concerts - both at Carnegie Hall - were in 2003, when he conducted his own Répons, and in 2005, when he led the LSO in The Rite of Spring. For the former, Carnegie used platforms to cover some of the seats on the main floor, to create the aural equivalent of a snow globe: the instrumental and electronic sounds were flying everywhere around the hall. And his version of the Stravinsky - the sounds making Carnegie's floor vibrate - was one of the most relentless, quietly brutal interpretations I've ever heard.
The last few years have made me fearful of this day - he'd been so ill, cancelling appearances and not working much - but he leaves a huge legacy.
--Bruce
Peter Stein's production of Pelléas et Mélisande, conducted by Boulez, was the most thrilling opera performance I ever saw. And Boulez's conducting masterclass at the Barbican, to mark his 70th birthday, was an exceptional experience too. As one journalist wrote at the time:
'He plainly tried to be helpful rather than patronising (a very difficult balancing act, that) and there were little encouraging gestures – especially the fatherly squeeze of the arm at the end of each session. Could this really be the modernist monster of popular mythology?'
The Ensemble Intercontemporain he founded and gave a mandate continues to be, for my money, the most exciting and inspiring group on the planet, and will continue to serve as a testament to his forsight and the strength of his commitment.
There seem to have been aJekyll and Hyde phenomenon lurking behind the benign, avuncular festures of Oncle Pierre.
First of all, he changed over time. After all, he was 90 when he died, and his influence on the modern music circuit had waned somewhat. According to this article in The Atlantic from 1995 http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1995/09/unreconstructed-modernist/376461/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1995/09/unreconstructed-modernist/376461/), he was more and more recognized as a conductor, and at the same time his music was played - and talked about - less asnd less.
Boulez the musical avant-gardiste was a bitch when it came to appraising or discussing other composers' music. Boulez the widely-travelled conductor was on the other hand hailed as a legend. And he basked in the glow of such accolades as musicians and critics gave his work. Make no mistake: he was a great conductor. This was his last successful calling card. Plus the man seemed to have mellowed. After all he ended up conducting Bruckner and Mahler, didn't he ?
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 06, 2016, 11:57:19 AM
The Ensemble Intercontemporain he founded and gave a mandate continues to be, for my money, the most exciting and inspiring group on the planet, and will continue to serve as a testament to his forsight and the strength of his commitment.
This is not exactly what happened. Boulez had been in self-imposed exile in Baden-Baden (Germany) for some years when the call came from the Élysée. President Pompidou had decided to make his mark on french cultural scene and needed a standard bearer for the musical portion of his cultural policy. Pompidou fostered the IRCAM (Institut de recherche et coordination acoustique-musique, 1969) as well as the Centre Pompidou.
During these years Boulez lobbied to get a government-subsidized musical ensemble to foster his views on modern music. He was the director the ensemble for 2 years (1976-1978). The Pompidou years were critical for the rise and pre-eminence of Boulez the musician and theoretician, a period in which he frantically (and sometimes viciously) lobbied to establish his views on modern music. Meanwhile the Intercontemporain continued under different conductors who did not always see eye to eye with its founder's views.
It is obviously too soon to assess properly the life and times of a man who, just like Wagner was as much a musical beacon as he was a schemer and lowly, gutter-style polemicist.
Can someone please change the thread title for the sake of accuracy? he died in 2016 I'm pretty sure!
And this:
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 06, 2016, 11:57:19 AM
The Ensemble Intercontemporain he founded and gave a mandate continues to be, for my money, the most exciting and inspiring group on the planet, and will continue to serve as a testament to his forsight and the strength of his commitment.
Hear hear!
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 06, 2016, 12:20:11 PM
Can someone please change the thread title for the sake of accuracy? he died in 2016 I'm pretty sure!
As the originator of this thread, happy to make this edit - done. 8)
--Bruce
Quote from: André on January 06, 2016, 12:18:35 PM
During these years Boulez lobbied to get a government-subsidized musical ensemble to foster his views on modern music. He was the director the ensemble for 2 years (1976-1978). The Pompidou years were critical for the rise and pre-eminence of Boulez the musician and theoretician, a period in which he frantically (and sometimes viciously) lobbied to establish his views on modern music. Meanwhile the Intercontemporain continued under different conductors who did not always see eye to eye with its founder's views.
Interesting. How different were the views of some of the later conductors? Do you know of any examples?
Coincidentally I just purchased this book a couple of weeks ago, haven't had a chance to look into it yet, but it probably covers a certain amount of this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41dDy9TuUXL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Has anyone read it?
It's normal that some of the conductors who succeded Boulez at the EIC saw things such as programming in a different view. Robertson for example tried to program american minimalists but his ideas met with resistance from within.
NZ, if you read french, you will find this interesting: https://www.erudit.org/revue/circuit/1999/v10/n2/004649ar.pdf (https://www.erudit.org/revue/circuit/1999/v10/n2/004649ar.pdf) Another insider's view (from IRCAM) details his views on Born's book.
I heard him conduct a number of times, in Chicago in the late 90s, and in New York shortly thereafter.
At the CSO concerts I was able to watch him from the front, from the gallery seats behind the orchestra. This was fascinating, because you could see the parsimony of his movements, and his deadpan facial expressions. He didn't even use a baton, just moved his hands as if sketching something on an invisible board in front of him.
Some critic called him "the Mr. Spock of modern music" and I thought that was apt. In my view he was a great conductor within a rather narrow range, an interesting if sometimes wrongheaded musical polemist, and a composer whose work I respected even if I didn't like it that much. A triple threat, whose like we shall probably not see again, at least anytime soon.
Pierre Boulezenegger
http://youtu.be/y17-pJZ9nEg
Says 'hasta la vista, baby' on 5 January 2016.
Here is a complete post from our recently lamented friend Lis, it dates from 2007. Mike
==========================================================================
This afternoon I spent close to an hour watching Pierre Boulez rehearsing the Wiener Philharmoniker in concerts by Alban Berg's Three Pieces and his own Notations I-IV. An overwhelming revelation of those two pieces, which had always left me muttering: "Huh?" Oh no, today's session did not remove all the 'huhs', but I got closer to hearing what was being played. Some day I might even understand it completely because of Boulez's enlightening, informative chats in between.
What really impressed me was Boulez's miraculous talent for hearing. An example was a passage in Berg's Orchesterstück II Reigen. There are about one hundred musicians playing, what seemed to me, whatever they wanted to, however they wanted to, more like the sound I am used to when the entire orchestra is tuning up at the beginning of a concert. Boulez interrupts them and asks trumpet 3 to play for him a G. The young man does it. "No, no, wrong, try again". The trumpeter tries again; Boulez not satisfied and after the third try he hums a G for the musician, and he gets it right! Perfect! To me they all sounded the same. Now how on earth could Boulez detect this barely off-key G among the mass of other notes produced by the entire orchestra? He showed this same talent during his Notations IV. He asks three trombones to repeat a certain bar. No good. After repeated tries it is discovered that the mute of one trombonist is shaped different than the other two!
Have I helped you to understand why I love to watch DVDs? Even the videos of concerts are a revelation of what makes any classical piece of music worth my time and concentration. BTW, Boulez during rehearsal is so much more lively, even charming, than during regular performances. :)
(http://static.bbci.co.uk/programmes/2.225.0/img/logos/64x36/bbc_radio_three.png)
Pierre Boulez 1925 – 2016
Celebrating the life and work of composer, conductor and innovator, Pierre Boulez
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03dq79z
http://www.artsjournal.com/sandow/2016/01/memories-of-boulez.html[/sub]
Here is a link to a very balanced look at Boulez. I have been reading a lot about his output as a conductor. Over and again I read that it is an x-ray, like the plans of a high-rise building, that you hear all the orchestration. And that usually goes hand in hand with an opionion that the outcome feels detached, removed, cold, dispassionate, bloodless, lacking in emotion. But that it is all wonderful....
So, he had a fantastic ear, he lays the score out clearly. But then, is it an autopsy? Is that great music making?
Mike
It does have something of the air of a hostile takeover, doesn't it?
(That said, I enjoy his Berlioz. Go figure!)
Quote from: knight66 on January 07, 2016, 07:14:13 AM
....
So, he had a fantastic ear, he lays the score out clearly. But then, is it an autopsy? Is that great music making?
Mike
In his review of Boulez's recording of Mahler's First Symphony, amazon customer
Grady Harp used a phrase I find very apt to describe
Pierre Boulez's conducting: "
Passionate BECAUSE of analytical correctness". This is the kind of music-making many of us enjoy, and yes, it is IMHO music-making of the highest calibre.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 07, 2016, 07:16:36 AM
It does have something of the air of a hostile takeover, doesn't it?
(That said, I enjoy his Berlioz. Go figure!)
Some people can be very passioante about hosile takeovers, you know. ;) :D
Quote from: ritter on January 07, 2016, 07:38:19 AM
In his review of Boulez's recording of Mahler's First Symphony, amazon customer Grady Harp used a phrase I find very apt to describe Pierre Boulez's conducting: "Passionate BECAUSE of analytical correctness". This is the kind of music-making many of us enjoy, and yes, it is IMHO music-making of the highest calibre.
Exactly
Quote from: ritter on January 07, 2016, 07:38:19 AM
In his review of Boulez's recording of Mahler's First Symphony, amazon customer Grady Harp used a phrase I find very apt to describe Pierre Boulez's conducting: "Passionate BECAUSE of analytical correctness". This is the kind of music-making many of us enjoy, and yes, it is IMHO music-making of the highest calibre.
Some people can be very passioante about hosile takeovers, you know. ;) :D
I think that is very good and I don't argue with it. I don't invaribly find him cold, as I think I indicated in my earlier posts. But clearly a number of people who do like his work, do find a lack of overt emotion. We all look for different things. I find Haitink generally too detached, but I shy away from a lot of Bernstein's discs as being OTT. The Shirley Bassey of conductors, drama everywhere. But, then I love his Falstaff, his Rosenkavalier, but not much of the Mahler/Tchaikovsky end of his output.
I also saw from another article today that in the sixties and seventies Boulez would program CPE Bach up against Webern and Ockenham with his own music. There are always unexpected sides to such complex people.
Mike
According to Philippe Manoury who was interviewed yesterday on French radio, Boulez attended a rehearsal of Shostakovich orchestral songs by Muti in Chicago a few years ago and said "it was really interesting". Yes it seems he mellowed a bit... :-)
Quote from: knight66 on January 07, 2016, 07:58:15 AM
I also saw from another article today that in the sixties and seventies Boulez would program CPE Bach up against Webern and Ockenham with his own music. There are always unexpected sides to such complex people.
Mike
A March 1965 Cleveland concert illustrates his unusual programming:
Rameau Concerts en sextuor, string orchestra, no. 6
Boulez Figures, doubles, prismes
Stravinsky Chant du rossignol
Debussy Rondes de printemps
Sarge
Quote from: ritter on January 07, 2016, 07:38:19 AM
Some people can be very passioante about hosile takeovers, you know. ;) :D
Hah!And then there is the customary dismissal of the
Emerson String Quartet as (I paraphrase) "polished and accurate." And I reply,
yes, indeed, let's have more of that.
Quote from: Joaquimhock on January 07, 2016, 08:06:27 AM
According to Philippe Manoury who was interviewed yesterday on French radio, Boulez attended a rehearsal of Shostakovich orchestral songs by Muti in Chicago a few years ago and said "it was really interesting". Yes it seems he mellowed a bit... :-)
Yes, especially for a guy who called Shostakovich a 'third-pressing of Mahler'. :)
Lots of composers said very scathing things about other composers. His look meaner due to those criticised often being around to hear the opinions. Surely, for good and bad, he is what we might term a typical French intellectual, par for the course.
Mike
Boulez about other composers was no les scathing than Celibidache about other composers. ;)
How do you prounounce "Boulez?
booLAY?
booLEZZ?
BOOlis?
It's pronounced Throat-Warbler Mangrove.
And Tchaikovsky called Brahms a giftless bastard; Britten said he played through all of Brahms periodically just to confirm how bad he was; Brahms ridiculed Bruckner for his start-and-stop forms; Weber thought Beethoven's later works proved he was ready for the madhouse; Stravinsky said of Richard Strauss that he didn't like the major works, and he didn't like the minor works; Schoenberg ridiculed Stravinsky as "der kleine Modernsky"; Mendelssohn was horrified by Berlioz; Richard Strauss IIRC said of Schoenberg that he'd be better off digging ditches. So what. Composers are under no obligation to be fair to other composers; they are only obligated to produce their own music. Composers are bound to have strong opinions, even strongly negative ones, towards other composers; if they didn't have such strong opinions, it's unlikely they would be such strong personalities themselves.
Quote from: Jay F on January 07, 2016, 11:09:22 AM
How do you prounounce "Boulez?
booLAY?
booLEZZ?
BOOlis?
booLEZZ
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 07, 2016, 11:13:18 AM
Britten said he played through all of Brahms periodically just to confirm how bad he was.
Which was a 180-degree turn: in his younger days,
Britten was a fan of
Brahms.
Too much of a good thing...?
Quote from: André on January 07, 2016, 11:03:14 AM
Boulez about other composers was no les scathing than Celibidache about other composers. ;)
Do you mean other conductors? If so, Celibidache about other conductors was no less scathing than many listeners about Celibidache.
Quote from: Jay F on January 07, 2016, 11:09:22 AM
How do you prounounce "Boulez?
booLAY?
booLEZZ?
BOOlis?
http://fr.forvo.com/word/pierre_boulez/#fr
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 07, 2016, 11:13:43 AM
booLEZZ
Wrong. Both the boo and lezz must be short, not long.
Try to pronounce it in exactly one second, and you'll get it right when speaking conversationally. If you just name the name or pronounce it the end of a sentence you may extend it to 2 seconds for emphasis. Longer than that you'll sound like an American :laugh:
Quote from: André on January 07, 2016, 12:17:53 PM
Wrong. Both the boo and lezz must be short, not long.
Try to pronounce it in exactly one second, and you'll get it right when speaking conversationally. If you just name the name or pronounce it the end of a sentence you may extend it to 2 seconds for emphasis. Longer than that you'll sound like an American :laugh:
bu-LEZ, then. I picked the closest of the three alternatives offered (sounded Z, second syllable stress). I have armed myself with a stopwatch and can assure you that even though I am one, I do not sound like an American.
From today's (January 7, 2016)
Wall Street Journal by MIT professor
Tod Machover:
Quote...I was fortunate to experience the intersection of Mr. Boulez's activities when I worked at his Institut de Recherche et Coordination Acoustique/Musique (Ircam), from 1978 to 1985. He invited me there at first as a kind of "guinea pig" to try the new technology, then named me Ircam's first director of musical research.
Although Mr. Boulez had trained in mathematics and science as well as in music, he had been less successful than others in his generation—which included such giants as Karlheinz Stockhausen—in creating innovative electronic music. He was one of the great orchestrators of instrumental music of the 20th century—and he felt that postwar electronic technology was inadequate. So he'd created Ircam to bring composers, instrumentalists, engineers and scientists together to invent the sounds, structures and systems to make possible the music he imagined.
At Ircam, Mr. Boulez approached electronic composition almost as a student, taking notes on exactly how each new process worked, looking to understand the furthest and most precise potential of machine intelligence, rehearsing each effect until it sounded splendid, and then adapting his musical sketches accordingly...
(After a power outage of 20 minutes right before the premiere of "Répons") Mr. Boulez had remained cool and collected; the performance had to go on. This time, all went flawlessly. The six soloists entered with crashing electronics, and the performance proceeded to the end. With no break, Mr. Boulez gave the lecture-demo and then played "Répons" a second time.
I—and many others—immediately knew that we had heard a masterpiece. And we had also observed Mr. Boulez at his best: pursuing great risk for his art; remaining calm and charming in adversity; graciously supporting his team and his machines; preparing meticulously for the moment that mattered, knowing not everything can be controlled.
Through these qualities, Pierre Boulez marked the music and culture of our times. He has left a legacy as a bold fighter for the seriousness, sophistication and transformative power of music at a moment when we have often forgotten how—or don't have the time—to really listen..
See:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/pierre-boulez-1925-2015-champion-of-art-and-tech-1452123500 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/pierre-boulez-1925-2015-champion-of-art-and-tech-1452123500)
Quote from: Jay F on January 07, 2016, 11:09:22 AM
How do you prounounce "Boulez?
booLAY?
booLEZZ?
BOOlis?
Listen :
https://www.youtube.com/v/w38EGBn9wzw
or
https://www.youtube.com/v/JriFc4QeS6E
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 07, 2016, 11:13:43 AM
booLEZZ
Quote from: Joaquimhock on January 07, 2016, 12:01:39 PM
http://fr.forvo.com/word/pierre_boulez/#fr
Quote from: André on January 07, 2016, 12:17:53 PM
Wrong. Both the boo and lezz must be short, not long.
Try to pronounce it in exactly one second, and you'll get it right when speaking conversationally. If you just name the name or pronounce it the end of a sentence you may extend it to 2 seconds for emphasis. Longer than that you'll sound like an American :laugh:
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 07, 2016, 12:26:33 PM
bu-LEZ, then. I picked the closest of the three alternatives offered (sounded Z, second syllable stress). I have armed myself with a stopwatch and can assure you that even though I am one, I do not sound like an American.
Quote from: pjme on January 07, 2016, 12:33:36 PM
Listen :
https://www.youtube.com/v/w38EGBn9wzw
or
https://www.youtube.com/v/JriFc4QeS6E
Thanks to you all. I studied French in high school and college, and I thought "lez" was pronounced "lay." Have I misremembered? Is this pronunciation an exception to the rule?
Quote from: Jay F on January 07, 2016, 01:43:56 PM
Thanks to you all. I studied French in high school and college, and I thought "lez" was pronounced "lay." Have I misremembered? Is this pronunciation an exception to the rule?
Can't explain it off the top of my head, but it may be a regionalism typical of the central area of France where B. was born. Cf. Berlioz, whose name is also pronounced with the Z and who was born close to Boulez's home town of Montbrison.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 07, 2016, 11:23:45 AM
Do you mean other conductors? If so, Celibidache about other conductors was no less scathing than many listeners about Celibidache.
I like conductors whose names I can pronounce ;)
Just kidding I love Celibidache as well! ;D
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 07, 2016, 02:38:04 PM
I like conductors whose names I can pronounce ;)
Just kidding I love Celibidache as well! ;D
[serdžu tšelibida´ke]
Quote from: North Star on January 07, 2016, 02:39:23 PM
[serdžu tšelibida´ke]
Now I can add him to my list of conductors whose names I can pronounce :)
Don't worry, Jay. The pronunciation of names can be very different from one case to the other. Not like nouns or articles, where there is a good grounding in some standard rules. Like nez (nose) which pronounces nay. Don't extend syllables in French, it's totally different from English, especially the English (UK) type, where last syllables are commonly lingered on (I just listened to 50 minutes of rehearsals from the War Requiem (with Britten) and that was quite interesting).
When it comes to names it's better to check locally if you can. For example, Baugnez (a town) is pronounced Bôôgnay (long bôô, short gnay). Whereas 'gagnez' (the verb 'you win') is pronounced gâniay (medium-short) or ganiay (short-short). I hink Boulez is an exception of sorts ;)
When in doubt, don't hesitate to ask. French is a d... difficult language ;) and locals are always delighted to help.
I might be misremembering this but I seem to recall reading somewhere that at the start of his career Boulez had to correct even French announcers and interviewers on the correct pronounciation of his name, it being a regional peculiarity.
Quote from: André on January 07, 2016, 02:44:34 PM
Don't worry, Jay. The pronunciation of names can be very different from one case to the other. Not like nouns or articles, where there is a good grounding in some standard rules. Like nez (nose) which pronounces nay. Don't extend syllables in French, it's totally different from English, especially the English (UK) type, where last syllables are commonly lingered on (I just listened to 50 minutes of rehearsals from the War Requiem (with Britten) and that was quite interesting).
When it comes to names it's better to check locally if you can. For example, Baugnez (a town) is pronounced Bôôgnay (long bôô, short gnay). Whereas 'gagnez' (the verb 'you win') is pronounced gâniay (medium-short) or ganiay (short-short). I hink Boulez is an exception of sorts ;)
When in doubt, don't hesitate to ask. French is a d... difficult language ;) and locals are always delighted to help.
Merci, Andre.
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 07, 2016, 02:49:54 PM
I might be misremembering this but I seem to recall reading somewhere that at the start of his career Boulez had to correct even French announcers and interviewers on the correct pronounciation of his name, it being a regional peculiarity.
You may well be right. I think Savoyards and Swiss pronounce names ending in 'az' and 'oz' with a mute z. IOW they don't pronounce it. De Gaulle used to muse that you couldn't rule a country with 5000 different types of cheese. Just think: every cheese is from a different 'terroir', with all that implies geographically, agriculturally, and phonetically :laugh:.
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 07, 2016, 02:49:54 PM
I might be misremembering this but I seem to recall reading somewhere that at the start of his career Boulez had to correct even French announcers and interviewers on the correct pronounciation of his name, it being a regional peculiarity.
So I guess he does have something in common with "Rafe" Vaughan Williams.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 07, 2016, 02:23:31 PM
Can't explain it off the top of my head, but it may be a regionalism typical of the central area of France where B. was born. Cf. Berlioz, whose name is also pronounced with the Z and who was born close to Boulez's home town of Montbrison.
Ez is pronoucend "é" at the end of verbs, second-person plural (vous avez, vous mangez et.) For family names there is not always rules... It's a habit.
Out off topic, as mentionned above, I've never understood the difference of pronouciation in English between Ralph Vaughan Williams http://fr.forvo.com/word/ralph_vaughan_williams/#en and Ralph Lauren http://fr.forvo.com/word/ralph_lauren/#en for instance...
Something applicable to the conversation:
http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~wedgwood/framesetpronunciation.html
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 07, 2016, 02:23:31 PM
Can't explain it off the top of my head, but it may be a regionalism typical of the central area of France where B. was born. Cf. Berlioz, whose name is also pronounced with the Z and who was born close to Boulez's home town of Montbrison.
I'm late to the party again but I seem to remember that he was asked about this once at an Edinburgh Festival Q&A and he said it was a regional variation (and he mentioned Berlioz as another example of it).
THE END MUST BE NEAR for B if this is the topic of discussion on the Thread, lol!!!
How right you are. Odd that in contrast, no one here cared whilst he was alive.
Anyway, more substantively here are some of the wise sayings or Chairman Boulez.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2015/mar/26/boulez-in-his-own-words
Imagine if he had his radical Taliban way and what we were left with was him.
Mike
je suis mixeur
Indeed.
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 09, 2016, 01:03:45 PM
I wouldn't often respond to one of these posts made by you...but seriously? What the hell? Do you not even understand what Boulez is saying when Boulez's words are there in plain English? Just reminding you that if you show that you understand Boulez's conversation about functional architecture then Simon, I and others probably wouldn't even be finding it somewhat embarrassing to read this thread....which has gone completely off topic anyway. :/
AND I find it extraordinarily disrespectful to both people who have recently died. Pleeeeeeease move this conversation to the Boulez thread! Currently there is nothing really interesting going on over there. It's just a conversation as to the pronunciation of the Z in his name!
The only architectural flair I see is in Boulez's nostrils.
There's nothing "functional" about blowing up existing opera houses and museums, unless of course one's a partisan of lost causes like Italian Futurism and Fascism.
Here's a compilation of lovely quotes http://ronsen.org/boulez/boulez5.html
Very enjoyable, a bit of a savaging. Only time will tell I guess.
Mike
Quote from: A. Page[Boulez] came to give a composer's workshop at the Conservatoire I studied at. I was pleasantly surprised by him.
The first question to him (asked by me) was: "You have been quoted as saying that the idea of a great English composer is a genetic impossibility, are we wasting our time?"
Hilarity and applause ensued. " The only time you seem to be wasting" Boulez replied " is in reading my old interviews."
http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R203R8J6GZMFD0/ref=cm_cr_dp_cmt?
As a huge Boulez fan, reading those quotes are stomach-churningly enjoyable! :laugh:
Boulez fandom is a mixed bag, innit? 8)
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 10, 2016, 12:04:27 PM
As a huge Boulez fan, reading those quotes are stomach-churningly enjoyable! :laugh:
I have yet to crack his compositions: I probably have about 25 years or so left to me....I will wait a while yet. The shortest quote was the best, A Napoleon complex with a comb-over.
Mike
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 10, 2016, 11:35:22 AM
Here's a compilation of lovely quotes http://ronsen.org/boulez/boulez5.html
"
I thought he wrote too fast, too carelessly, that he threw in too many notes."
So he was a 20th century Mozart? ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Marsch MacFiercesome on January 10, 2016, 11:34:47 AM
The only architectural flair I see is in Boulez's nostrils.
There's nothing "functional" about blowing up existing opera houses and museums, unless of course one's a partisan of lost causes like Italian Futurism and Fascism.
This, which has just been moved from a seriously off-topic discussion in the Lemmy thread , is part of replies to my response to the "Boulez wanted to burn down opera houses" stuff from this member.
I'd like to repost my reply with the full quote in context, as it will undoubtedly come up again - and as others here may wish to comment:
As has been pointed out to you before it comes as a willful distortion of this:
SPIEGEL: M. Boulez, do you think you would be able to realize your modern musical theatre in our highly conventional opera houses?
BOULEZ: Quite certainly not. That brings us to another reason why there is no modern opera today. The new German opera houses certainly look very modern — from outside ; inside they have remained extremely oldfashioned. Only with the greatest difficulty can one present modern operas in a theatre in which, predominantly, repertory pieces are played. It is really unthinkable. The most expensive solution would be to blow the opera houses up. But don't you think that would also be the most elegant?
SPIEGEL: But, since no administrator is going to follow your suggestion ...
BOULEZ: Then one can play the usual repertory in the existing opera houses, Mozart, Verdi, Wagner, up to about Berg. For new operas, experimental stages absolutely need to be incorporated. This apparently senseless demand has already been widely realized in other branches of the theatre.
SPIEGEL: This would also diminish the financial risk which every opera administrator has to run when he puts on a contemporary opera.
BOULEZ: Yes, the burden of having to present a 'successful' opera in every case — one which attracts the public — would happily be removed. And on a small stage of that kind one could risk all kinds of things, whilst the big opera houses continue to exist as museums.
http://opera.archive.netcopy.co.uk/article/june-1968/10/opera-houses-blow-them-up-
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 10, 2016, 02:09:10 PM
This, which has just been moved from a seriously off-topic discussion in the Lemmy thread , is part of my response to the "Boulez wanted to burn down opera houses" stuff from this member.
I'd like to repost my reply with the full quote in context, as it will undoubtedly come up again - and as others here may wish to comment:
As has been pointed out to you before it comes as a willful distortion of this:
SPIEGEL: M. Boulez, do you think you would be able to realize your modern musical theatre in our highly conventional opera houses?
BOULEZ: Quite certainly not. That brings us to another reason why there is no modern opera today. The new German opera houses certainly look very modern — from outside ; inside they have remained extremely oldfashioned. Only with the greatest difficulty can one present modern operas in a theatre in which, predominantly, repertory pieces are played. It is really unthinkable. The most expensive solution would be to blow the opera houses up. But don't you think that would also be the most elegant?
SPIEGEL: But, since no administrator is going to follow your suggestion ...
BOULEZ: Then one can play the usual repertory in the existing opera houses, Mozart, Verdi, Wagner, up to about Berg. For new operas, experimental stages absolutely need to be incorporated. This apparently senseless demand has already been widely realized in other branches of the theatre.
SPIEGEL: This would also diminish the financial risk which every opera administrator has to run when he puts on a contemporary opera.
BOULEZ: Yes, the burden of having to present a 'successful' opera in every case — one which attracts the public — would happily be removed. And on a small stage of that kind one could risk all kinds of things, whilst the big opera houses continue to exist as museums.
http://opera.archive.netcopy.co.uk/article/june-1968/10/opera-houses-blow-them-up-
Thanks for the context. But even if he'd said that, it's ridiculous to never give up the outrage about something someone said 60 years ago despite what they've done in the intervening years.
Quote from: Daverz on January 10, 2016, 02:19:27 PM
Thanks for the context. But even if he'd said that, it's ridiculous to never give up the outrage about something someone said 60 years ago despite what they've done in the intervening years.
Perfectly fair. I do still like my "Ebenezer Scrooge of New Music" simile . . . .
I for one don't feel outrage, I think it just makes him look somewhat absurd. It was one amonst many extreme comments that he threw out there possibly for effect. Whether serious or not; he worked very hard in traditional opera houses and with traditional orchestras in their concert halls and he accepted awards galore and a good deal of money for seemingly dancing with the devil.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on January 10, 2016, 02:31:19 PM
I for one don't feel outrage, I think it just makes him look somewhat absurd. It was one amonst many extreme comments that he threw out there possibly for effect. Whether serious or not; he worked very hard in traditional opera houses and with traditional orchestras in their concert halls and he accepted awards galore and a good deal of money for seemingly dancing with the devil.
Mike
Yes; I think as well that it's no good pointing to the earlier "love-darts" as smoking guns. But the sight of him in the photo album, with his finger on the trigger, doesn't reflect all that well on him.
https://www.youtube.com/v/oTrrPtpCIPA
Quote from: knight66 on January 10, 2016, 02:31:19 PM
I for one don't feel outrage, I think it just makes him look somewhat absurd. It was one amonst many extreme comments that he threw out there possibly for effect. Whether serious or not; he worked very hard in traditional opera houses and with traditional orchestras in their concert halls and he accepted awards galore and a good deal of money for seemingly dancing with the devil.
Mike
Boulez was not wrong that a concert hall today is a museum of sorts: like a general art museum without a specific genre or era, one expects to hear a majority of the works come from earlier eras, while a smaller section of the repertoire is dedicated to contemporary musicians.
Boulez seemingly would have preferred that arrangement to be reversed, and obviously wanted - as happens in the art world - concert halls dedicated to and designed specifically for the contemporary composers. While pictorial art has a fairly good number of "Museums of Modern Art," there are not many concert halls or orchestras dedicated to music specifically of the last 50 or 100 years.
Quote from: Cato on January 11, 2016, 05:06:05 AM
Boulez was not wrong that a concert hall today is a museum of sorts: like a general art museum without a specific genre or era, one expects to hear a majority of the works come from earlier eras, while a smaller section of the repertoire is dedicated to contemporary musicians.
Boulez seemingly would have preferred that arrangement to be reversed, and obviously wanted - as happens in the art world - concert halls dedicated to and designed specifically for the contemporary composers. While pictorial art has a fairly good number of "Museums of Modern Art," there are not many concert halls or orchestras dedicated to music specifically of the last 50 or 100 years.
Indeed.
Quote from: Cato on January 11, 2016, 05:06:05 AM
Boulez seemingly would have preferred that arrangement to be reversed, and obviously wanted - as happens in the art world - concert halls dedicated to and designed specifically for the contemporary composers. While pictorial art has a fairly good number of "Museums of Modern Art," there are not many concert halls or orchestras dedicated to music specifically of the last 50 or 100 years.
What would be the cutoff point? Some of Ives' works would have to be excluded even if the past 100 years.
Rachmaninoff would fit in fine as well as Puccini, however.
ZB
Quote from: Cato on January 11, 2016, 05:06:05 AM
[ While pictorial art has a fairly good number of "Museums of Modern Art," there are not many concert halls or orchestras dedicated to music specifically of the last 50 or 100 years.
The exceptions that first come to mind, of course, are the
Ensemble Intercontemporain and, prior to that, the
Domaine Musical, both founded by
Boulez. So he did put his money where his mouth was, so to speak (even if that money came from the French state for the EIC, and from private patrons--mainly Mme. Tézéeas--for the Domaine).
He put others' money where his mouth was: that cannot be denied 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on January 11, 2016, 05:45:52 AM
He put others' money where his mouth was: that cannot be denied 8)
And lovers of contemporary music should be very grateful to him for having done so... ;) 8)
Quote from: ritter on January 11, 2016, 05:48:35 AM
And lovers of contemporary music should be very grateful to him for having done so... ;) 8)
Oh, indeed 0:)
Quote from: ritter on January 11, 2016, 05:36:39 AM
The exceptions that first come to mind, of course, are the Ensemble Intercontemporain and, prior to that, the Domaine Musical, both founded by Boulez.
Well, they aren't full-on exceptions, I don't think. The
Ensemble InterContemporain is, let's call it, a chamber orchestra (30-ish paid soloists); and the
Domaine a "concert society." Even here in the States, we have chamber groups dedicated to new music in most of the big cities.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on January 11, 2016, 05:32:27 AM
What would be the cutoff point? Some of Ives' works would have to be excluded even if the past 100 years.
Rachmaninoff would fit in fine as well as Puccini, however.
ZB
Heh-heh!
Ives therefore belongs in the regular concert halls, does he not? 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on January 11, 2016, 05:50:13 AM
Oh, indeed 0:)
Well, they aren't full-on exceptions, I don't think. The Ensemble InterContemporain is, let's call it, a chamber orchestra (30-ish paid soloists); and the Domaine a "concert society." Even here in the States, we have chamber groups dedicated to new music in most of the big cities.
Like
Triad in Boston! 0:)
Quote from: Cato on January 11, 2016, 05:52:11 AM
Like Triad in Boston! 0:)
The difference, I suppose, being that
Boulez found OPM to underwrite the new music endeavors. That's a challenge here.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 11, 2016, 05:50:13 AM
Well, they aren't full-on exceptions, I don't think. The Ensemble InterContemporain is, let's call it, a chamber orchestra (30-ish paid soloists); and the Domaine a "concert society." Even here in the States, we have chamber groups dedicated to new music in most of the big cities.
Indeed, all those groups in Europe and the US, AFAIK, are chamber ensembles (those pre-EIC--like the ASKO or the London Sinfonietta--, or those that came later). Only the Ensemble Modern expands into a full symphony orchestra, methinks. But still, better to have these prmamnent outlets for contemporary creation, even if with reduced forces, than nothing at all...
Quote from: ritter on January 11, 2016, 05:57:40 AM
Indeed, all those groups in Europe and the US, AFAIK, are chamber ensembles (those pre-EIC--like the ASKO or the London Sinfonietta--, or those that came later). Only the Ensemble Modern expands into a full symphony orchestra, methinks. But still, better to have these prmamnent outlets for contemporary creation, even if with reduced forces, than nothing at all...
Bien sûr!
Quote from: karlhenning on January 10, 2016, 12:14:28 PM
Boulez fandom is a mixed bag, innit? 8)
One shouldn't dare make a poll. It would be too incendiary...
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on January 11, 2016, 06:07:54 AM
One shouldn't dare make a poll. It would be too incendiary...
Indeed.
And
Boulez would have liked it that way . . . .
Quote from: knight66 on January 10, 2016, 12:23:48 PM
I have yet to crack his compositions: I probably have about 25 years or so left to me....I will wait a while yet. The shortest quote was the best, A Napoleon complex with a comb-over.
Mike
I like his later compositions much better: they are more obviously lyrical. So work chronologically backward.
Jeffrey, A good idea, I will certainly try some of his pieces this week. Which late pieces would you suggest for starters?
Mike
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 11, 2016, 07:02:56 AM
I like his later compositions much better: they are more obviously lyrical. So work chronologically backward.
I'm not Jeffrey, but I'd say that
Rituel, the orchestral
Notations and
sur Incises are the obvious places to start with later Boulez. Maybe
Repons too. I've never warmed to
...explosante-fixe... and think
Derive 2 is thoroughly mediocre, but YMMV.
What I actually wanted to post here was a Boulez quote from Nicholas Kenyon's article in the
Guardian: "Too much outer energy uses up inner energy," which seems to me to sum up just how his Mahler managed to be so electric despite its superficial caution. Though I do remember him being so animated conducting the finale of Mahler 6 that I swear he had both feet off the podium several times in the passage leading up to the second hammer-blow.
Quote from: knight66 on January 11, 2016, 08:34:00 AM
Jeffrey, A good idea, I will certainly try some of his pieces this week. Which late pieces would you suggest for starters?
Mike
Mike, as a long time follower of Boulez, I'd suggest ...explosante-fixe... pretty straight-forward and easy to grasp.[asin]B0007404HI[/asin]
Quote from: James on January 11, 2016, 08:48:59 AM
Mike, as I long time follower of Boulez, I'd suggest ...explosante-fixe... pretty straight-forward and easy to grasp.
[asin]B0007404HI[/asin]
Great work! I usually played a part of it for my high-school European History students for the Music History section of the course, and it always got a reaction.
Good old
Le Maitre is also a possibility: ignore whatever the booklet says, and just listen! (You might also want to ignore the words until your second or third run-through. ??? )
Quote from: Cato on January 11, 2016, 08:54:39 AM
Great work!
Indeed, one of his bonafide masterpieces.
Thanks guys for the suggestions: I will give them a try.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on January 11, 2016, 10:01:50 AM
Thanks guys for the suggestions: I will give them a try.
Mike
I have a strong intuition that you will enjoy Messagesquisse.
Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2016, 10:11:54 AM
I have a strong intuition that you will enjoy Messagesquisse.
That would be on my shortlist too, along with Le Marteau, Rituel, . . . explosante-fixe . . . and Sur incises
I would recommend Dérive I as probably the best 'introduction' piece to Boulez's compositions. It's short and there are many good recordings of it on YouTube and on CD around. It provides a nice insight into his aesthetic in a concise way, and shows his approach to orchestration and serialism in a nutshell. This is a piece which is derived from Messagesquisse actually, notably making use of the same 6-note row which he explores further in this piece around the same time. Boulez's recording of it on DG is probably the 'go to' version, but this one is excellent too and highly recommended:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MuZ1wjDnL._SX355_.jpg)
I have added five pieces to my playlist on Spotify, thanks, I will take time with them.
Mike
Mike, have you tried The 3 Piano Sonatas.. ? Great stuff .. but they will demand focused concentration & time depending on the level of exposure/experience you have with modern Art music. Stretch your ears & mind. Choice performances from the Boulez box on YT below ..
https://www.youtube.com/v/xmpvx16qGJUhttps://www.youtube.com/v/KbF2996shIU
No.1, Aimard - 1991 No. 2, Maurizio Pollini - 1978
https://www.youtube.com/v/Lb-bqejWmPk
No. 3, Paavali Jumppanen - 2005
Idil Biret also recorded a great disc of all three sonatas on Naxos. :)
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 11, 2016, 03:33:11 PM
Idil Biret also recorded a great disc of all three sonatas on Naxos. :)
Yes, I like that one too. She kicks butt. However, for the absolute best performance/recording for each individual one, I would suggest those linked above over all others.
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 11, 2016, 02:28:00 PM
I would recommend Dérive I as probably the best 'introduction' piece to Boulez's compositions. It's short and there are many good recordings of it on YouTube and on CD around. It provides a nice insight into his aesthetic in a concise way, and shows his approach to orchestration and serialism in a nutshell.
I second this suggestion - mainly because it's short, and you can listen to it several times. Often giving a work repeated hearings helps. As an aside, when I was struggling with the music of
Elliott Carter (which was a long time, actually), I decided to zero in on
Esprit Rude/Esprit Doux (1985, flute and clarinet) simply because it's 5 minutes long, and I thought, "I'm going to play this over, and over - and over - until I get it." It worked.
But back to
Boulez recommendations: I posted this in WAYLT but it's worth noting here, a spectacularly recorded version of
Répons (1981-84, chamber ensemble and live electronics). This was performed last June at the new Paris Philharmonie, with the Ensemble Intercontemporain conducted by Matthias Pintscher. The audio and video quality are excellent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQE5TYnD58k
--Bruce
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYgq93eWcAAn_Ac.jpg)
I just read this lovely article: http://soundcheck.wnyc.org/story/10-great-works-20th-century-pierre-boulezs-90th-birthday/
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 13, 2016, 02:27:38 AM
I just read this lovely article: http://soundcheck.wnyc.org/story/10-great-works-20th-century-pierre-boulezs-90th-birthday/
It has been posted, and discussed, before. It's mostly a nice list, although it inevitably ignores swathes of 20th century music.
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 13, 2016, 02:27:38 AM
I just read this lovely article: http://soundcheck.wnyc.org/story/10-great-works-20th-century-pierre-boulezs-90th-birthday/
Thanks for sharing.
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 13, 2016, 02:27:38 AM
I just read this lovely article: http://soundcheck.wnyc.org/story/10-great-works-20th-century-pierre-boulezs-90th-birthday/
I remember a great LSO performance at NY's Carnegie Hall from the year 2000 that included the Berg 3 Pieces and the Mahler 6th.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 13, 2016, 05:16:36 AM
I remember a great LSO performance at NY's Carnegie Hall from the year 2000 that included the Berg 3 Pieces and the Mahler 6th.
The hammerist finally earned his keep, eh?
Sarge
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 13, 2016, 05:16:36 AM
I remember a great LSO performance at NY's Carnegie Hall from the year 2000 that included the Berg 3 Pieces and the Mahler 6th.
I saw this in London (a truly great performance) and Edinburgh (very good but a bit of a letdown after London) on that tour. Both of these works played so well to Boulez's strengths as a conductor, and I feel a bit bad that I almost completely forgot everything about the Neuwirth work that was also part of the program.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 13, 2016, 05:16:36 AM
I remember a great LSO performance at NY's Carnegie Hall from the year 2000 that included the Berg 3 Pieces and the Mahler 6th.
I wonder, perhaps Boulez was being faced with a rather more conservative opinion then, seeing that Berg 3 Pieces and Mahler 6th have indeed worked on a program together like that....
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 13, 2016, 05:27:45 AM
The hammerist finally earned his keep, eh?
Sarge
Le marteau était sans maître.
Discography question.
How many recordings of Le Marteau made under Boulez's direction* have been released? The Complete Works box has two, the "official" DG recording, and a second "historical" recording which I think is also contained in the Percussions de Strasbourg 50 Ans box (but I don't feel like digging out the PdS box to confirm that). But I seem to remember reading about a third one made midway betwern the two. Is there a third?
*The credits list him as conductor, which seems a bit overmuch for what is essentially a chamber work.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 13, 2016, 05:09:42 PM
(1) How many recordings of Le Marteau made under Boulez's direction* have been released? The Complete Works box has two, the "official" DG recording, and a second "historical" recording which I think is also contained in the Percussions de Strasbourg 50 Ans box (but I don't feel like digging out the PdS box to confirm that). But I seem to remember reading about a third one made midway betwern the two. Is there a third?
(2) *The credits list him as conductor, which seems a bit overmuch for what is essentially a chamber work.
(1) Don't know myself, but I know someone who will certainly know and will get back to you.
(2) Not really. Given the complexity of the rhythms, a conductor is most definitely required. Even as recently as 2001, when I heard him direct the work at Carnegie Hall and he claimed that the performers mastered the work far more readily than when first written, Boulez still felt the need to direct it.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 13, 2016, 06:01:14 PM
(1) Don't know myself, but I know someone who will certainly know and will get back to you.
(2) Not really. Given the complexity of the rhythms, a conductor is most definitely required. Even as recently as 2001, when I heard him direct the work at Carnegie Hall and he claimed that the performers mastered the work far more readily than when first written, Boulez still felt the need to direct it.
Merci. Although there is no rush.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 13, 2016, 05:09:42 PM
Discography question.
How many recordings of Le Marteau made under Boulez's direction* have been released? The Complete Works box has two, the "official" DG recording, and a second "historical" recording which I think is also contained in the Percussions de Strasbourg 50 Ans box (but I don't feel like digging out the PdS box to confirm that). But I seem to remember reading about a third one made midway betwern the two. Is there a third?
*The credits list him as conductor, which seems a bit overmuch for what is essentially a chamber work.
This is probably going to give more questions rather than answers....but in
Le Domaine Musical there is a third...but not knowing that recording could it possibly be another release of the second recording in the Complete Works box? Those are all released by DG as far as I know....
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 13, 2016, 05:09:42 PM
Discography question.
How many recordings of Le Marteau made under Boulez's direction* have been released? The Complete Works box has two, the "official" DG recording, and a second "historical" recording which I think is also contained in the Percussions de Strasbourg 50 Ans box (but I don't feel like digging out the PdS box to confirm that). But I seem to remember reading about a third one made midway betwern the two. Is there a third?
*The credits list him as conductor, which seems a bit overmuch for what is essentially a chamber work.
The "official" recordings of
Le Marteau san maître under
Pierre Boulez's leadership (and, yes, the piece most definitely needs a conductor IMHO) are 5 (
N.B.: the recording dates I give might be off by a year or two, as I'm writing from memory):
1)
1957, with
Marie-Thèrese Cahn and musicians of the Domaine Musical - issued on LP by the Véga label, and now available as a "bonus disc" in the Accord box of Domaine Musical recordings.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91lRXZO0G%2BL._SL1500_.jpg)
2)
1963, with
Jeanne Deroubaix. This is the one that appears in the Percussions de Strasbourg box, and is also included both in the Domaine box and the "Complete Works" set on DG. IIRC, orginally on LP on the Adès label, as well as on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi. In America, it was available on Turnabout (and in this guise, was the first LP of Boulez's music I owned).
(http://ring.cdandlp.com/chapoultepek69/photo_grande/115038203.jpg) (https://img.discogs.com/BP91hidZT2bzgaAu95UbH_YN7Pc=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1011583-1203286470.jpeg.jpg)
3)
1974, with
Yvonne Minton and the Ensemble Musique Vivante. This was a Columbia release, that took ages to make it to CD. Now available in the big Boulez "orginal jackets" box on Sony, and in the "Masterworks of the 20th Century" compilation.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze2/large/1014246.jpg)
4)
1985, with the EIC and
Eisabeth Laurence, on CBS. Also included in the Sony "original jackets" box.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NPNJCZ2SL.jpg)
5)
2004, again with the EIC, and
Hillary Summers, on Deutsche Grammophon (and included in the "Complete Works" set).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516xkBaqthL.jpg)
EDIT: In 2017, a new "official" recording of
Boulez conducting
Le Marteau... has been launched. It's live from a concert in Berlin in
2010 (in the framework iof the celebrations of the composer's 85th birthday). It has the EIC with, again,
Hillary Summers as vocal soloist:
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B01MZAVQGM.01.L.jpg)
Then, there's several studio or live recordings available
sans Boulez, including
Robert Craft's pioneeering effort for Columbia (available on CD, but not easy to come by),
Odaline de la Martinez conducting Lontano on the Lorelt label,
Ulrich Pöhl conducting Insomnio on the Encora label, and an alomst impossible to find Stradivarius CD with none other than
Bruno Maderna conducting an Italian group.
I have them all, of course ;) (except for a Swedish effort by KammerensembleN on Caprice, which is shorn of all the vocal numbers ::) )...
Quote from: ritter on January 13, 2016, 11:25:51 PM
The "official" recordings of Le Marteau san maître under Pierre Boulez's leadership (and, yes, the piece most definitely needs a conductor IMHO) are 5 (N.B.: the recording dates I give might be off by a year or two, as I'm writing from memory):
1) 1957, with Marie-Thèrese Cahn and musicians of the Domaine Musical - issued on LP the Véga label, and now available as a "bonus disc" in the Accord box of Domaine Musicale recordings.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91lRXZO0G%2BL._SL1500_.jpg)
2) 1963, with Jeanne Deroubaix. This is the one that appears in the Percussions de Strasbourg box, and is also included both in the Domaine box and the "Complete Works" set ion DG. IIRC, orginally on LP ion the Adès label, as well as on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi.
(http://ring.cdandlp.com/chapoultepek69/photo_grande/115038203.jpg)
3) 1974, with Yvonne Minton and the Ensemble Musique Vivante. This was a Columbia release, that took ages to make it to CD. Now avaialble in the big Sony Boulez box, and in the "Masterworks of the 20th Century" compilation.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze2/large/1014246.jpg)
4) 1985, with the EIC and Eisabeth Laurence, on CBS.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NPNJCZ2SL.jpg)
5) 2004, again with the EIC, and Hillary Summers. On Deutsche Grammophon.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516xkBaqthL.jpg)
Then, there's several studio or live recordings available sans Boulez, including Robert Craft's pioneeering effort for Columbia (available on CD, but not easy to come by), Odaline de la Martinez conducting Lontano on the Lorelt label, Ulrich Pöhl conducting Insomnio on the Encora label, and an alomst impossible to find Stradivarius CD with none other than Bruno Maderna conducting an Italian group.
I have them all, of course. ;) (exceprt for a Swedish effort by KammerensembleN on Caprice, which is shorn of all the vocal numbers ::) )...
Ah, I forgot about all of Boulez's amazing stuff with Columbia/CBS......been busy with my DG and Erato recordings lately actually. But thank you for this post! It's great! And it's also great to know how lucky I am to have found and now own a copy of the Robert Craft recording. 8)
Quote from: ritter on January 13, 2016, 11:25:51 PM
I have them all, of course. ;) (exceprt for a Swedish effort by KammerensembleN on Caprice, which is shorn of all the vocal numbers ::) )...
Le Marteau sans paroles? Quel horreur!
Quote from: karlhenning on January 14, 2016, 01:29:22 AM
Le Marteau sans paroles? Quel horreur!
Scandaleux! :D Almost as absurd as those "
The Ring without Words" CDs that abound... >:(
Quote from: ritter on January 13, 2016, 11:25:51 PM
The "official" recordings of Le Marteau san maître under Pierre Boulez's leadership (and, yes, the piece most definitely needs a conductor IMHO) are 5. Then, there's several studio or live recordings available sans Boulez.
In other words, le marteau vraiment sans son maître. Your list matches exactly the five versions supplied by my friend. To my surprise, I only have the Deroubaix as a commercial recording, but on a separate Adès CD that includes the Flute Sonatine and Messiaen's Haikai. (In general I dislike Boulez's later DG recordings of his earlier works; the PSP for example sounds tame next to the older one on Sony.) I had the Craft and have made a CD transfer of my own from the LP. Then there are a number of bootlegs (shhhhh!!) you can find on YouTube. Maderna: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwpyBj6U-Mc
Quote from: ritter on January 13, 2016, 11:25:51 PM
The "official" recordings of Le Marteau san maître under Pierre Boulez's leadership (and, yes, the piece most definitely needs a conductor IMHO) are 5 (N.B.: the recording dates I give might be off by a year or two, as I'm writing from memory):
1) 1957, with Marie-Thèrese Cahn and musicians of the Domaine Musical - issued on LP by the Véga label, and now available as a "bonus disc" in the Accord box of Domaine Musical recordings.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91lRXZO0G%2BL._SL1500_.jpg)
2) 1963, with Jeanne Deroubaix. This is the one that appears in the Percussions de Strasbourg box, and is also included both in the Domaine box and the "Complete Works" set on DG. IIRC, orginally on LP on the Adès label, as well as on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi. In America, it was available on Turnabout (and in this guise, was the first LP of Boulez's music I owned).
(http://ring.cdandlp.com/chapoultepek69/photo_grande/115038203.jpg) (http://cdn.discogs.com/rOC8Oc9Bu7c5KK9diF10GV1_fXQ=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-1011583-1203286470.jpeg.jpg)
3) 1974, with Yvonne Minton and the Ensemble Musique Vivante. This was a Columbia release, that took ages to make it to CD. Now available in the big Boulez "orginal jackets" box on Sony, and in the "Masterworks of the 20th Century" compilation.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze2/large/1014246.jpg)
4) 1985, with the EIC and Eisabeth Laurence, on CBS. Also included in the Sony "original jackets" box.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NPNJCZ2SL.jpg)
5) 2004, again with the EIC, and Hillary Summers, on Deutsche Grammophon (and included in the "Complete Works" set).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516xkBaqthL.jpg)
Then, there's several studio or live recordings available sans Boulez, including Robert Craft's pioneeering effort for Columbia (available on CD, but not easy to come by), Odaline de la Martinez conducting Lontano on the Lorelt label, Ulrich Pöhl conducting Insomnio on the Encora label, and an alomst impossible to find Stradivarius CD with none other than Bruno Maderna conducting an Italian group.
I have them all, of course ;) (except for a Swedish effort by KammerensembleN on Caprice, which is shorn of all the vocal numbers ::) )...
Thanks for the rundown. It seems I have numbers 2,3, and 5 on the list, and it is 2 which works best for me.
Credit is given where credit is due: this forum has far outboulezed its corresponding french outfits. Boulez still runs strong on GMG whereas the short-lived tide has since ebbed on other french forums ::)
And this is the weekend to spend more time with my Domaine musical boxes.
Was posted only 6 hours ago on YouTube: http://youtu.be/tmRZ25Wcjic
Two of my favourite composers in discussion: Pierre Boulez and Dai Fujikura.
Goog music choices for his funeral yesterday:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYuD7g1WAAEC5EO.jpg:large)
Very apt selectin of music for such an occasion. I can imagine Boulez smiling at that. :)
And excellent artists to boot !
Quote from: snyprrr on January 10, 2016, 09:09:05 AM
THE END MUST BE NEAR for B if this is the topic of discussion on the Thread, lol!!!
ack- I didn't even know when I Posted this!!
Boy am I late to the party..... mmmm...
I have missed all the fun :(
OK, I'm at a loss here 10 days later... I mean, I heard NOTHING on Yahoo or the lamestream news... I mean, I mean...
I thought he was ONE figure that would get a tiny bit of Lester Holt, LOL!!
aye- now I'm just blank.... Boulez finally closed the book on 20th Century High Moderrnism... no one's left, right? We're done here, right?
desire to write endless bullshit is overwhelming!!!!!!
OVERWHELMING!!!!!!!
wow, Ok snyprrr, wrap yer hed around this and get on with the day...
WOW, i FEEL A CELEBRATION COMING ON.... RENT CAN WAIT, RIGHT?(whoops)
But I simply have no feelings on the matter at all.... yaaawn....
wow, I can't believe I missed this- wait, did this happen the same day as Bowie????? this is huuuge.... I'm just giddy....
BOULEZ BEFORE THE LORD GOD OF ALL CREATION------- HOW DID THAAAAT GO???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Quote from: snyprrr on January 15, 2016, 06:17:16 AMBut I simply have no feelings on the matter at all.... yaaawn....
That was quite a distended post expressing no feelings ....
Quote from: karlhenning on January 15, 2016, 06:20:56 AM
That was quite a distended post expressing no feelings ....
ho's In Charge, I did not know about this until just now-ish, and I had already before laid out for the day's journey: Messiaen's 'Les Canyons'... no spoilers
mORE OF A SHOCK (whoops) ... to be clear W
did you get that?
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/317/MI0003317016.jpg)
The recording of Dérive 2 by Daniel Kawka takes twice as long as the composer's.
I like Dérive 2 - maybe more than the commercial recording of Explosante Fixe. I just learned that the commercial Explosante Fixe is a revision, and the first version was wilder. I'd like to give the first version a try.
Dérive 2 is based on early music ideas, certain ideas about counterpoint. I wonder if other people in Boulez's world were also influenced by pre baroque composers. Carter maybe?
The 24 minute version of Dérive II would probably be an earlier version of the work! A more recent version is recorded on the Complete Works box set of Ensmeble InterContemporain conducted by Boulez live in 2010 with a run time of 43:59 (Kawka does indeed take things at a broader pace on the disc you mention).
Unfortunately, Boulez has been quite insistent on 'definitive' versions of his compositions...and even in the Complete Works box set he curated, early versions of Dérive II, ...explosante-fixe... and Répons among other things aren't included in favour of the latest incarnations of the works. It might require some effort to hear some of the original versions of a piece like ...explosante-fixe...
^Were there ever commercial recordings of those earlier versions?
Quote from: karlhenning on January 15, 2016, 06:20:56 AM
That was quite a distended post expressing no feelings ....
But you have to admire the idisyncratic capitalization, odd use of copious whitespace, and extreme number of emoticons... or not.
Quote from: Daverz on January 17, 2016, 06:38:02 PM
But you have to admire the idisyncratic capitalization, odd use of copious whitespace, and extreme number of emoticons... or not.
It's a thing of something, truly.
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 17, 2016, 06:31:58 PM
^Were there ever commercial recordings of those earlier versions?
I doubt it! But who knows....there might be a recorded radio broadcast around.....
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 17, 2016, 05:58:15 PM
Unfortunately, Boulez has been quite insistent on 'definitive' versions of his compositions...
Aye, one of his obsessions.
Parenthetically, I was just at an old friend's for a party, who once on a time studied in Brussels and in France, and he told me that many musicians in France nicknamed the group the
Ensemble Qu'on N'entend Rien.
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 17, 2016, 06:45:34 PM
I doubt it! But who knows....there might be a recorded radio broadcast around.....
Ah, right. But there's no old and now super-collectable lps that he simply refused to have reissued with these things?
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 17, 2016, 05:58:15 PM
The 24 minute version of Dérive II would probably be an earlier version of the work! A more recent version is recorded on the Complete Works box set of Ensmeble InterContemporain conducted by Boulez live in 2010 with a run time of 43:59 (Kawka does indeed take things at a broader pace on the disc you mention).
Unfortunately, Boulez has been quite insistent on 'definitive' versions of his compositions...and even in the Complete Works box set he curated, early versions of Dérive II, ...explosante-fixe... and Répons among other things aren't included in favour of the latest incarnations of the works. It might require some effort to hear some of the original versions of a piece like ...explosante-fixe...
Apparently the first Explosante Fixe was really hard to play for the flautist. There may be a trace of it in the short piece called Memoriale, but I've not been able to really find out the relation between the two pieces of music.
I have some recordings of early versions of Répons. I'm not convinced that the revisions improved the music at all.
I'm impressed by Kawka - I might try to go to one of his concerts this year.
Quote from: Mandryka on January 17, 2016, 09:41:35 PM
Apparently the first Explosante Fixe was really hard to play for the flautist. There may be a trace of it in the short piece called Memoriale, but I've not been able to really find out the relation between the two pieces of music.
I have some recordings of early versions of Répons. I'm not convinced that the revisions improved the music at all.
I'm impressed by Kawka - I might try to go to one of his concerts this year.
I was locky enogh to see Kawka and hois EOC do both
Dérive's and
Mémoriale live here in Madrid in 2011. A great concert by all accounts.
Concerning earlier versions, well, there's the "early"
Dérive II included as a filler in the original CD relaese of Boulez's last recroding of
Le Marteau sans maïtre on DG. This was not later included in the "Complete Works" box.
As for
Mémoriale, I don't know if it's identical to the last section of the "final"
...explosante / fixe ..., as recorded by DG, but if not, it is very, very similar.
Mémoriale is subtitled "
...explosante / fixe... originel".
There is an early version of
Tombeau (as a standalone piece, from before the completion of
Pli selon pli, and with the subtitle--later dropped--"
a la memoire du Prince Max Egon zu Fürstenberg") available on this CD:
[asin]B00004TVG0[/asin]
Regards,
Quote from: karlhenning on January 17, 2016, 06:57:06 PM
Aye, one of his obsessions.
Parenthetically, I was just at an old friend's for a party, who once on a time studied in Brussels and in France, and he told me that many musicians in France nicknamed the group the Ensemble Qu'on N'entend Rien.
:laugh:
A touching and at moments very funny personal tribute to Pierre Boulez by Gerald McBurney (creative director of A Pierre Dream, the multimedia show that premiered in Chicago and then travelled to other cities). In The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jan/12/pierre-boulez-gerard-mcburney-a-pierre-dream).
Boulez's reservations about the Turangalîla remaied unabated, but instead of referring to it as "bordello music", he then used a rather clever phrase: "Bernini of the suburbs". :D
Sad-eyed Bernini of the lowlands . . . .
Notations III deserves close study.
Fascinating musical tribute by G Kurtag to his friend Pierre Boulez:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDdVhFjER9g
[flash=560,315]http://www.youtube.com/v/zDdVhFjER9g[/flash]
http://www.youtube.com/v/zDdVhFjER9g
Sorry I was not able to embed it it seems...
Try to listen to this brilliant piece before or after listening to Notation VII. A perfect match.
Quote from: Joaquimhock on January 29, 2016, 04:43:59 AM
Sorry I was not able to embed it it seems...
No worries; glad to be of help.
Good interview with Boulez here. Among other things confirming his interest in counterpoint and history of music.
http://www.canal-u.tv/video/universite_de_lorraine/entretien_pierre_boulez_claude_lefebvre.5452
Quote from: Mandryka on January 29, 2016, 10:36:56 AM
Good interview with Boulez here. Among other things confirming his interest in counterpoint and history of music.
http://www.canal-u.tv/video/universite_de_lorraine/entretien_pierre_boulez_claude_lefebvre.5452
Fantastic! Thanks for the link. :)
In Tombeau a multitude of lines and indivudual chamber size textures overlap and converse with one another.
I can well believe it.
For those in the Toronto area, New Music Concerts are performing sur Incises on Monday night (http://www.newmusicconcerts.com/2015-2016/styled-4/index.html) at the Betty Oliphant Theatre on Jarvis St.
I'll certainly be going.
That sounds very exciting! I have no idea when the last the last time Boulez was ever performed in Australia.....
Lifetime Achievement Award, now, go figure...
Quote from: snyprrr on February 16, 2016, 07:28:18 PM
Lifetime Achievement Award, now, go figure...
You're gonna
love the tribute that Lady Ga-Ga is going to perform!
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2016, 01:38:58 AM
You're gonna love the tribute that Lady Ga-Ga is going to perform!
Le Marteau sans Maitre? :laugh:
Livre pour quatour (yes, always having problems with "ou-uo) :)
Pulled this out in the midst of my Babbitt-a-thon. Well, look here, here is all of Babbitt in 1949!! As I was listening to Babbitt's SQ4, I was wondering who-who-who... WHERE have I heard this before? No one up to Babbitt appears to be as dense with notes as Babbitt, but then I remembered the 'Livre', and how dense it was, and, lo!, yes, Boulez seems to have already reached Babbitt's 70s density 20 years earlier. I'd love to know what Boulez and Babbitt thought of each other.
Quote from: snyprrr on February 20, 2016, 07:48:59 AMI'd love to know what Boulez and Babbitt thought of each other.
I vividly remember an audio interview years back where Boulez was asked what he thought of Babbitt, his response .. "too academic". He always maintained that his favorite American composer was Elliott Carter. Other than that, he was by & large .. from a musical standpoint, largely negative of all other American composers.
Yes, quite parochial of him.
You know what I just realized? Why is there no alliterative title? Who started this thread? Bruce! What is wrong with you?!?!
You could have picked Boulez's Brothel.
Quote from: EigenUser on February 21, 2016, 02:19:02 AM
You know what I just realized? Why is there no alliterative title? Who started this thread? Bruce! What is wrong with you?!?!
You could have picked Boulez's Brothel.
Probably the real reason why his productivity diminished from the mid-70s onward was he was too busy swimming in so much groupie pussy. See profile pic. ;)
Quote from: EigenUser on February 21, 2016, 02:19:02 AM
You know what I just realized? Why is there no alliterative title? Who started this thread? Bruce! What is wrong with you?!?!
You could have picked Boulez's Brothel.
Or
Boulez's Boule, "boule" being French for a "ball," as well as a round loaf of bread.
Quote from: James on February 21, 2016, 03:25:49 AM
Probably the real reason why his productivity diminished from the mid-70s onward was he was too busy swimming in so much groupie pussy. See profile pic. ;)
:laugh:
Brilliant. I didn't even make that connection!
Quote from: EigenUser on February 21, 2016, 03:32:10 AM
:laugh:
Brilliant. I didn't even make that connection!
In your pic, as someone on here insightfully pointed out before (probably a professional Medium by day) .. there are no scores in that brief case, just, let's say .. "fun toys". And check out that grin on his face. Master indeed. Mick Jagger, eat your heart out.
Gee, wonder why there are so few female participants at GMG?
Quote from: karlhenning on February 22, 2016, 01:31:03 AM
Gee, wonder why there are so few female participants at GMG?
Most women just don't waste their time doing this dorky shit. Guys do. Sorry karl, you looking?
Footage from Pierre Boulez's memorial service and burial in Baden-Baden last month:
https://www.youtube.com/v/kMFSdTaZXdU
https://www.youtube.com/v/S8G6QrewClQ
The music is the andante amoroso from Alban Berg's Lyric suite, performed by the strings of the Orchestra of the SWF Baden-Baden and Freiburg.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 13, 2016, 04:40:36 AM
Thanks for sharing.
I'd say he includes only the franco-german-austrian swath. It's only the Parisian Stravinsky...a good list nonetheless.
As a conductor, he made some great recordings. But a good argument could be made that he led a group of musical bullies who were possibly (and this is my hypothesis only!)responsible for a lot of great pieces NOT being written by other composers who rode his postwar wave. To be honest, I haven't listened to him much since grad school when it was required.
Responsible for heightening musical standards.
Quote from: ritter on February 25, 2016, 02:51:18 AM
Footage from Pierre Boulez's memorial service and burial in Baden-Baden last month:
Funny to see Wolfgang Rihm there, because he and Boulez rarely crossed paths musically.
Maybe not crossing paths with Boulez was the key to good relations 8)
Quote from: CRCulver on March 01, 2016, 11:03:03 PM
Funny to see Wolfgang Rihm there, because he and Boulez rarely crossed paths musically.
Indeed, AFAIK
Boulez seldom coducted any
Rihm, and certainly did not record any of his music.
And yet, I recall reading a very laudatory essay on Boulez by Rihm in this book:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41FXHWhRbUL.jpg)
It was published in 2010 in honor of Boulez's 85th birthday, and includes contributions (apart from Rihm) by Claudio Abbado, Daniel Barenboim, Patrice Chereau, Philip Gossett, Clemens Hellsberg, Christina Muti, Olga Neuwirth and Maurizio Pollini, among others. More details on amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/Pierre-Boulez-Pensieri-per/dp/3905847647/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1456933352&sr=1-1&keywords=3905847647)
And of course, Rihm succeeded Boulez as artistic director of the Lucerne Festival Academy. He also composed a piece,
Gruss-Moment, in homage to the Frenchman. More information in this article from The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2015/aug/26/pierre-boulez-day-lucerne-festival-rihm-kurtag).
As an aside, both composers adimre(d) the work of
Antonin Artaud (well, in the case of Rihm, that admiration appears almost obsessive--and has resulted in some
very interesting pieces :)).
Quote from: CRCulver on March 01, 2016, 11:03:03 PM
Funny to see Wolfgang Rihm there, because he and Boulez rarely crossed paths musically.
I'd disagree: I think a piece like
Jagden und Formen, in the way it spirals toccata-like and slower material around in continuous variations on an initial idea, is very obviously indebted to later Boulez (eg:
Repons).
On the other hand, you could argue that Rihm has crossed paths musically with almost everyone, given the variety of the musical tropes he's adopted over time.
Quote from: edward on March 02, 2016, 10:01:50 AM
I'd disagree: I think a piece like Jagden und Formen, in the way it spirals toccata-like and slower material around in continuous variations on an initial idea, is very obviously indebted to later Boulez (eg: Repons).
...
Jagden und Formen is a work I definitely msut explore!
Cheers,
A new book of interviews with Pierre Boulez by Michel Archimbaud has just been published by Gallimard in France:
[asin]2070418286[/asin]
Here (http://bibliobs.nouvelobs.com/documents/20160315.OBS6514/pierre-boulez-en-musique-beaucoup-se-contentent-de-ressasser.html)'s an article on the book form Le Nouvel Observateur:
The Revenge of Pierre Boulez, Destroyer of Music
by Roger Scruton (published May 3, 2016)
(http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Pierre-Boulez-tic.jpg)
DE MORTUIS NIL NISI BONUM: Of the dead, nothing unless good. But you can take it too far, reinventing someone who was a power-hungry manipulator, by allowing no one to speak for him save his partisans, many of whom owe their careers to promoting him. As the French say, on a ras le bol with Pierre Boulez, whose death in January has called forth such a spate of idolatrous prose that the sceptics among us have begun to wonder whether French culture is not after all as dead as its critics say it is, if this minor composer and intellectual impresario can be lauded as its greatest recent product. Yet no one in the official channels of cultural appraisal has sown a seed of doubt.
Boulez has three achievements to his name. First, his compositions, presented to the world as next in line to the serialism of Webern, and the "place we have got to" in our musical evolution; secondly, his presence in French culture, diverting government subsidies away from anything that might seem to endorse ordinary musical taste towards the acoustic laboratory of the avant-garde; thirdly, his work as a conductor, for whom clarity and precision took precedence over sentiment. His dominating presence in French musical life is proof that, once the critics have been silenced, the self-appointed leader will be accepted at his own valuation. Condemning all competitors as "useless," and hinting at a revelation, a "system," that authorised his doings as the musical Zeitgeist, Boulez was able to subdue whatever timid protests might greet his relentless self-promotion. His disciples and acolytes have spoken abundantly of his charm, and it is clear that, once the period of initial belligerence was over, and his opponents had been despatched to the dust-heap of history, Boulez was a smiling and benevolent occupant of his self-made throne. But did he rule from that throne over fertile territory, or was this sovereignty an expensive illusion?
Read rest here: http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2016/05/who-was-pierre-boulez.html
Wow. That was disrespectful, ignorant, AND offensive. If they find that someone's defecated on Boulez's grave, I recommend Roger Scruton as a prime suspect.
Nathan, Scruton will be poorer than us for ever, he will never undestand Boulez's greatness...
Tant pis pour lui.
Roger Scruton (and a number of other writers, like John Borstlap), in their quest to completely dismiss a trend in music that started well before Pierre Boulez appeared on the international scene, have turned the frechman into their bête noire, personalizing in him all that they think is wrong with music as they see it. Of course Boulez was outspoken and brash at times, and probably the most brilliant polemicist for his cause, but he certainly was not alone at Darmstadt, Donaueschingen, the Domaine Musical (critics always fail to mention the fact that there were no state subsidies for the Domaine) or even at IRCAM. And as nathanb rightly points out, Mr. Scruton's article is ignorant: just look at what was being programmed by (for instance) the Orchestre de Paris, any other French orchestra, and the Opéra when Boulez allegedly held absolute power, to see that the music he disliked was in no way being surpressed.
And I must add that Mr. Scruton's thesis that Boulez produced "acoustical art" rather than "musical art" is plain stupid >:(, displaying IMHO a one-sided view of the art of music that is very poor. It's as if someone said that, for instance, Jackson Pollock's output was not painting, but "visual art"... ::)
Quote from: James on May 08, 2016, 05:11:31 AM
The Revenge of Pierre Boulez, Destroyer of Music
by Roger Scruton (published May 3, 2016)
(http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Pierre-Boulez-tic.jpg)
DE MORTUIS NIL NISI BONUM: Of the dead, nothing unless good. But you can take it too far, reinventing someone who was a power-hungry manipulator, by allowing no one to speak for him save his partisans, many of whom owe their careers to promoting him. As the French say, on a ras le bol with Pierre Boulez, whose death in January has called forth such a spate of idolatrous prose that the sceptics among us have begun to wonder whether French culture is not after all as dead as its critics say it is, if this minor composer and intellectual impresario can be lauded as its greatest recent product. Yet no one in the official channels of cultural appraisal has sown a seed of doubt.
Boulez has three achievements to his name. First, his compositions, presented to the world as next in line to the serialism of Webern, and the "place we have got to" in our musical evolution; secondly, his presence in French culture, diverting government subsidies away from anything that might seem to endorse ordinary musical taste towards the acoustic laboratory of the avant-garde; thirdly, his work as a conductor, for whom clarity and precision took precedence over sentiment. His dominating presence in French musical life is proof that, once the critics have been silenced, the self-appointed leader will be accepted at his own valuation. Condemning all competitors as "useless," and hinting at a revelation, a "system," that authorised his doings as the musical Zeitgeist, Boulez was able to subdue whatever timid protests might greet his relentless self-promotion. His disciples and acolytes have spoken abundantly of his charm, and it is clear that, once the period of initial belligerence was over, and his opponents had been despatched to the dust-heap of history, Boulez was a smiling and benevolent occupant of his self-made throne. But did he rule from that throne over fertile territory, or was this sovereignty an expensive illusion?
Read rest here: http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2016/05/who-was-pierre-boulez.html
Eesh! Can't one admire M. Boulez without being his "partisan"? ::)
I learn from the detractors too. It balances perspective and plants it closer to reality.
Boulez was a great musician. I did not see eye to eye with all his work as a conductor, but he was supremely competent. We always know his view is to be taken at face value. As a composer it will take years to reassess everything. Personally I don't like much of it, but that is pretty much the case with most modern music. My ears' development is somewhat fossilized but that is my problem, not that of modern music or any composer in particular. Dogmatism from either side kills openness and overture to culture in general.
Quote from: James on May 08, 2016, 05:11:31 AM
The Revenge of Pierre Boulez, Destroyer of Music
by Roger Scruton (published May 3, 2016)
Read rest here: http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2016/05/who-was-pierre-boulez.html[/size]
The usual anti-Boulez rant. I wouldn't mind reading a critical evaluation, but why are these things always just floating quotes, anecdotes without sources, recieved wisdom treated as fact, willful misrepresentations and sweeping generalisations? They keep saying Boulez and his "disciples" suppressed or subverted the careers of other composers, but somehow are never are able to give cases and say who or how.
James: I see The Imaginative Conservative offer a link on the side to another of their articles called "Barack Obama's Defense Of Slavery".
Quote from: James on May 09, 2016, 11:23:17 PM
Roger Scruton is an established writer Simon, there is more to him than what you wrongfully (again) suggest .. and Boulez was an authority on music-making at the highest level .. a public figure who's comments did and could taint composers reputations.
As I said in my previous post I want specific examples and details, not these vague accepted rumors. Not just to show that he had strong loud opinions and squabbled with people - there's plenty of that to go around in the music world - but to show that he actually ruined people through the blackballing performed by himself and his clique. Got any examples?
Quote from: SimonNZ on May 10, 2016, 02:10:48 AM
As I said in my previous post I want specific examples and details, not these vague accepted rumors. Not just to show that he had strong loud opinions and squabbled with people - there's plenty of that to go around in the music world - but to show that he actually ruined people through the blackballing performed by himself and his clique. Got any examples?
James's enthusiasms blind him to facts. This leaches into his most lamentable tendency to mistake his opinions for facts. For James, "opinion" = "anything
someone else has to say."
(https://img.discogs.com/hhgDurR6g7rjUJ9lJvWwNfvtQoc=/fit-in/450x421/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7953467-1452351497-5733.jpeg.jpg)
A belated--the CD appeared two years ago IIRC, but with haphazard distribution--review of the Diotima Quartet's recording of
Livre pour quatour, by
Andrew Clements in The Guardian:
Quote from: Andrew ClementsIt was never subjected to the same number of reworkings and expansions as some of his later works, yet Livre pour Quatuor, Pierre Boulez's only string quartet, remained in a state of compositional flux for the last 60 years of his life. Boulez began the original six-movement version in 1948, when he was 23 and had just completed his Second Piano Sonata. The title, Livre, was a homage to Mallarmé and to the poet's idea of a book in which the individual chapters could be shuffled: Boulez intended that the movements of the quartet could be reordered, or even detached and performed separately. His original manuscript has no bar lines and few tempo markings and dynamics and, at that stage, it seems, he planned to publish two versions, the original form and in a score with time signatures that would make it much easier to perform. In the event, though, only the first two movements were performed at the premiere in 1955, and the full score was eventually published three years after that as a five-movement work (the fourth was omitted, though the original numbering of the movements was retained).
Performances of the remaining movements and eventually of the whole work followed over the next decade. In the late 1960s, Boulez expanded two of the movements as a work for a string orchestra, Livre pour Cordes. But performances of the original remained rare, mainly because of its sheer difficulty. At one point, Boulez himself suggested that any group would need a conductor to solve all the problems, and later admitted that the score was "overloaded with information". But though he never realised his plan to make a performing version of the missing fourth movement, between 2002 and 2012 he did make revisions and clarifications to the other movements, the last of them in sessions with the Quatuor Diotima.
The result was never going to be a definitive version of Livre pour Quatuor, but what Diotima have recorded will remain Boulez's final thoughts on a piece that defined a crucial point in his rapid development as a composer in the years after the second world war. It was his first work to abandon traditional music forms, and the one in which the two most significant influences on his early music, Messiaen and Webern, were finally fused into a coherent style. It's music that, as the composer himself said, veers between "intentionally austere bareness" and "the most proliferating exuberance" – both qualities that the Diotima's performance catches vividly. It's sometimes rapturously beautiful, sometimes chillingly detached; in many ways it's the most revealingly personal work that Boulez ever composed.
Full rewiew here (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/may/11/boulez-livre-pour-quatuor-revise-cd-review-quatuor-diotima-megadisc-classics-classical-music)
Quote from: ritter on May 12, 2016, 06:12:46 AM
A belated--the CD appeared two years ago IIRC, but with haphazard distribution--review of the Diotima Quartet's recording of Livre pour quatour, by Andrew Clements in The Guardian:
Full rewiew here (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/may/11/boulez-livre-pour-quatuor-revise-cd-review-quatuor-diotima-megadisc-classics-classical-music)
You might want to edit the quotation a bit,
Rafael ;)
Quote from: North Star on May 12, 2016, 06:18:20 AM
You might want to edit the quotation a bit, Rafael ;)
Fixed! Thanks for the heads-up,
Karlo!...the quotation was incoheernt, to put it mildly :D
Quote from: James on May 15, 2016, 08:00:08 AM
I've had a recording of this one for a few years now .. I wouldn't say it's anywhere near his best, or the best of the medium.
Perhaps I'll dig it out and give it another listen. :-\
Is that with the Parisii?
I happen to think the 'Livre' is one of the behemoth epochal SQs- and certainly the largest by any Modern Composer (well, you know). It's just an endless tour of an overgrown garden, lots of prickly things, but I find the density comforting- like a mild Ferneyhough or Babbitt but with just as many notes.
I actually prefer it to his later style in a way...
Early Boulez is wonderfully quaint, in the best sense of the word
Quote from: James on May 08, 2016, 05:11:31 AM
http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2016/05/who-was-pierre-boulez.html[/size]
I really don't understand the importance of an article like this. The most informative anecdotes on his music and character are the ones that come from the musicians who worked with him and learnt from him.
Quote from: James on July 16, 2016, 07:23:24 AM
But even the detractors learn. And it's always nice to read a different point of view, someone from the outside looking in. It has it's merits. Personally, as much as I liked Boulez and some of his music, I don't see it really having much legs into the future. As a composer he was a heroic failure (much like how he himself, described Schoenberg), and a 'lone figure' in the end.
I still prefer an evaluation of his work overall when considering his impact in the world of music. The point of view expressed in the article is interesting to read but all it does really is show that Boulez is still a controversial figure.
Livre pour quatuor ≈ apotheosis of Webern.
Quote from: Uhor on July 16, 2016, 05:25:59 PM
Livre pour quatuor ≈ apotheosis of Webern.
I think it's a bit longer than the things that Webern composed.
Aren't the individual sections (I-VI) independent?
Quote from: Uhor on July 17, 2016, 12:05:03 AM
Aren't the individual sections (I-VI) independent?
Yes, but that doesn't change my point about their length. :P
Webern came up with some brilliant, inventive and beautiful miniatures, but, for me at least, none of his pieces exclaim energy and excitement like Répons.
Quote from: jessop on July 17, 2016, 06:29:22 PM
Webern came up with some brilliant, inventive and beautiful miniatures, but, for me at least, none of his pieces exclaim energy and excitement like Répons.
Good.
"WEBERN SUXXx"
(Graffitti on a wall just down the street from the Boulez household)
Quote from: snyprrr on July 18, 2016, 09:07:31 AM
"WEBERN SUXXx"
(Graffitti on a wall just down the street from the Boulez household)
omg :laugh:
Quote from: James on July 19, 2016, 02:50:59 AM
Répons is too long and derivative. There are Webern pieces that are a billion times more exciting and energetic imo.
(https://i.imgflip.com/whqb3.jpg)
Another day, another fatuous pronouncement . . . .
The breadth of musical inventiveness found in Répons is amazing, but I daresay that full effect of the piece can only fully be appreciated in live performnace, as the real-time electronic treatment of the solsoists and the spatial distribution of sound is impossible to reproduce on media. Seeing Répons live here in Madrid in 1992 was one of the highlights of my concertgoing life.
Quote from: James on July 19, 2016, 02:50:59 AM
Répons is too long and derivative. There are Webern pieces that are a billion times more exciting and energetic imo.
Said the guy who puts Stockhausen up on some kind of godly pedestal. Please...
Quote from: jessop on July 19, 2016, 02:59:49 AM
(https://i.imgflip.com/whqb3.jpg)
we should all have those giffey things here... would come in handy...
Boulez has bad hair, and his dog smells funny!
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 19, 2016, 07:04:14 AM
Said the guy who puts Stockhausen up on some kind of godly pedestal. Please...
I don't have very much interest in listening to Stockhausen's music on a regular basis (like I listen to Boulez), but I truly admire his approach to music and especially his extraordinarily eye(ear?)-opening techniques of improvisation he advocates for musicians. There are a number of pieces I absolutely love from Stockhausen though, so I am thankful that these masterpieces exist.
Quote from: jessop on July 19, 2016, 05:22:37 PM
I don't have very much interest in listening to Stockhausen's music on a regular basis (like I listen to Boulez), but I truly admire his approach to music and especially his extraordinarily eye(ear?)-opening techniques of improvisation he advocates for musicians. There are a number of pieces I absolutely love from Stockhausen though, so I am thankful that these masterpieces exist.
I'd listen to Boulez any day of the week before I'd listen to another note of Stockhausen and that's saying a lot.
Quote from: snyprrr on July 19, 2016, 11:25:27 AM
we should all have those giffey things here... would come in handy...
we could use any gif in a jiffy 8)
...
oh wow that was awful
Quote from: snyprrr on July 19, 2016, 11:26:25 AM
...and his dog smells funny!
Hey, that's the dog's fault.
THIS IS SOME QUALITY BOULEZ RELATED DISCUSSION HERE
Quote from: jessop on July 20, 2016, 01:16:29 AM
THIS IS SOME QUALITY BOULEZ RELATED DISCUSSION HERE
That's the thing about Boulez. He brings out the worst in people ;).
Quote from: Rons_talking on July 20, 2016, 05:32:35 AM
That's the thing about Boulez. He brings out the worst in people ;).
He sure brought out the worst in Pierre Boulez.
Jessop, how many recordings do you have of Le marteau?
Quote from: karlhenning on July 20, 2016, 06:08:50 AM
Jessop, how many recordings do you have of Le marteau?
Nice try, Karl,... nice try... now... back to the flogging!! :laugh:
I must have two recordings of Le marteau, but I have not done anything like a comparison. I am inclined to doubt that I need (say) a third recording . . . but I am curious to know the thoughts of a fellow composer who has heard "the lot."
Quote from: karlhenning on July 20, 2016, 06:18:47 AM
I must have two recordings of Le marteau, but I have not done anything like a comparison. I am inclined to doubt that I need (say) a third recording . . . but I am curious to know the thoughts of a fellow composer who has heard "the lot."
The word on the street is that the
first recording is still the best, and it kind of goes downhill from there, in order,... oh, and of course I'm speaking of his own recordings,... since,... no one would dare,... Karl?,... have you dared???
And the first is the Adda? Then, CBS? Is there a third one before the latest DG?
Quote from: karlhenning on July 20, 2016, 06:08:50 AM
Jessop, how many recordings do you have of Le marteau?
5
Quote from: karlhenning on July 20, 2016, 04:33:02 PM
Well, say on; inquiring minds want to know!
On a re-examination, I realise I have 4 rather than 5. Two in Le Domain Musicale box, one in Oeuvres Complètes box (another of those being represented on disc 1 of Le Domain Musicale) and another one conducted by Robert Craft I believe. Once my score arrives in the mail I will look at the composition in more detail.
Quote from: snyprrr on July 20, 2016, 02:40:46 PM
And the first is the Adda? Then, CBS? Is there a third one before the latest DG?
Ask, and you will recieve: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5453.msg946697.html#msg946697
I have them all ::) :-[ ;D
Quote from: jessop on July 20, 2016, 05:32:12 PM
On a re-examination, I realise I have 4 rather than 5. Two in Le Domain Musicale box, one in Oeuvres Complètes box (another of those being represented on disc 1 of Le Domain Musicale) and another one conducted by Robert Craft I believe. Once my score arrives in the mail I will look at the composition in more detail.
Cool; I've also got the two
Le Domaine musical performances, and (I should guess) is it the 20/21 release which was reissued in the
Oeuvres Complètes box? I should be really interested at some point to hear the
Craft, partly because it's
Craft, and partly because, well, all the recordings I have heard were conducted by the composer. Not at all
a bad thing, of course; I am just interested to hear how a separate musical mind puts the piece together. At any rate, I should spend some time in some comparative listening, myself . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on July 21, 2016, 01:19:10 AM
Cool; I've also got the two Le Domaine musical performances, and (I should guess) is it the 20/21 release which was reissued in the Oeuvres Complètes box? I should be really interested at some point to hear the Craft, partly because it's Craft, and partly because, well, all the recordings I have heard were conducted by the composer. Not at all a bad thing, of course; I am just interested to hear how a separate musical mind puts the piece together. At any rate, I should spend some time in some comparative listening, myself . . . .
It's a whole new world of Boulez when it's someone else's interpretation! I would like to know what other non-Boulez recordings are available of Le Marteau.....
Quote from: jessop on July 21, 2016, 01:50:53 AM
It's a whole new world of Boulez when it's someone else's interpretation! I would like to know what other non-Boulez recordings are available of Le Marteau.....
Et voilà:Robert Craft:
(http://img.cdandlp.com/2013/08/imgL/116137931.jpg) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0002/998/MI0002998364.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Bruno Maderna (live):
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ElDJ4tiIobQ/U_s11LxR5lI/AAAAAAAAnFk/Ozih7DlyENo/s1600/Front.jpg)
On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwpyBj6U-Mc
Odaline de la Martinez:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61oizt2pfaL.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/Boulez-Sans-Sonata-Marteau-Maitre/dp/B000025ZJA
Ulrich Pöhl:
(http://www.sa-cd.net/covers/10523.jpg)
B. Tommy Andersson (shorn of the vocal numbers >:():
(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/16/58/7391782215816_300.jpg)
Simon Rattle (excerpts on video).
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/arthausmusik102043.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61WPrXnagwL._SL1000_.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/Simon-Rattle-conducts-explores-Century/dp/B01BZ2IUBM/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_pdt_img_top?ie=UTF8
That's it AFAIK.
EDIT: In late 2016, another recording of
Le Marteau was issued, conducted by
Pascal Gallois:
(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/16/07/8011570370716_600.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=B01MTTJ40B
And in late 2018, this recording with the Ónix Ensemble from Mexico reached the market:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/919B38WtcML._SX522_.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/Onix-Ensamble-Hard-Core/dp/B07HBHZ5R9/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=B07HBHZ5R9&qid=1566071488&s=music&sr=1-1
EDIT January 2020: The col legno label has announced a new recording with the Ensemble Orchestral Contempirain conducted by
Daniel Kawka, to be released in March 2020:
(https://www.col-legno.com/pics_db/20447_boulez_cover_3500x3500.jpg)
Thanks!
Quote from: ritter on July 21, 2016, 02:49:33 AM
Simon Rattle (excerpts on video).
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/arthausmusik102043.jpg)
And I have that DVD; I watched it once when I first fetched it in, six years ago . . . should have a fresh watch/listen.
Boulez must have been the most generous, selfless person there has ever been for music. No wonder people absolutely adore the man. (https://youtu.be/pzQF3_Q8xGs)
Does that make him a good conductor ? A great composer ?
Good dog.
Quote from: André on July 22, 2016, 11:31:33 AM
Does that make him a good conductor ? A great composer ?
Actually I don't think so. I have no doubt that there are composers and conductors in the world who have dickhead personalities but are good at what they do. Boulez happens to be good at conducting and composing in addition to the things we see in the documentary I posted.
Quote from: jessop on July 21, 2016, 02:07:56 PM
Boulez must have been the most generous, selfless person there has ever been for music. No wonder people absolutely adore the man. (https://youtu.be/pzQF3_Q8xGs)
That is one wonderful documentary...what I've always wondered, though, is whether the repeated use of the (beautiful)
Cantabile, molto legato from Ligeti's
Musica ricercata as background music is a homage or rather a snub to the Hungarian composer ::)
Quote from: ritter on July 23, 2016, 01:39:56 AM
That is one wonderful documentary...what I've always wondered, though, is whether the repeated use of the (beautiful) Cantabile, molto legato from Ligeti's Musica ricercata as background music is a homage or rather a snub to the Hungarian composer ::)
I was wondering that too...it is a lovely piece (especially the wind quintet version) but perhaps it was just the simplicity in it that was appropriate for background music rather than anything else.
"doesn't do much for me" doesn't do much for me... as any kind of insightful or intelligent criticism
Quote from: James on July 24, 2016, 01:13:24 PM
Breadth, inventiveness? LOL ...
Quote from: James on July 24, 2016, 01:12:23 PM
People on this forum are very confused.
Thank heaven there's one supremely intelligent person here who is not confused.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Quote from: James on July 24, 2016, 03:14:55 PM
Of course, I could go into why, I could speak about these composers & their music at great length but just don't see any reason to on this forum. Not exactly time well spent!
As someone who studies this kind of music, I would love to read your analysis of the work.
Quote from: James on July 24, 2016, 03:23:28 PM
There is far more to Art than analysis.
Boulez (imo) was a failed composer, his work says & means little.
Give me something I can work with please!
Quote from: James on July 24, 2016, 03:14:55 PM
Of course, I could go into why, I could speak about these composers & their music at great length but just don't see any reason to on this forum. Not exactly time well spent!
I have no reason to believe you could. I believe "does nothing for me" and "utter crap" is the full range of your critical apparatus and articulation.
Quote from: James on July 24, 2016, 03:27:48 PM
That's fine. Personally, I don't care what you believe.
If you don't care what anyone thinks and you don't want to discuss music, then why do you come to a classical music forum? You mention time is better spent
not discussing music on this forum with anyone, but you don't mind dumping on music with no reason as to
how you've come to formulate such an opinion. Your logic, or in this instance, lack thereof, makes absolutely no sense to me.
Quote from: jessop on July 24, 2016, 03:24:55 PM
Give me something I can work with please!
How many formulae does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Potato! :laugh:
omgggggggggg I will soooo watch those on the coming weekend....I have 0 time up until then :(
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on September 02, 2016, 03:10:08 PM
Me watching another Boulez thing:
https://youtu.be/xFqxA-Vms24 (https://youtu.be/xFqxA-Vms24)
And here I came to this thread to post this...oh well. I suspect it would be able to open up Boulez's soundworld to those who had considered him purely dry and intellectual. It's good!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 20, 2016, 06:08:50 AM
Jessop, how many recordings do you have of Le marteau?
Just want to update my reply to this question:
I have 6
Just received the 2017 schedule for the Park Avenue Armory in New York, and very much looking forward to this in October. The vast Armory space, hard to tame, might be just the thing for this piece, depending on how they configure it.
According to the description, they will do the piece TWICE each night, so the audience can move to a different spot for the second performance -- an interesting idea.
http://www.armoryonpark.org/programs_events/detail/repons
Boulez: Répons
Ensemble intercontemporain
Matthias Pintscher, Conductor
Samuel Favre, Gilles Durot, Percussion
Dmitri Vassilakis, Hidéki Nagano, Piano
Frédérique Cambreling, Harp
Luigi Gaggero, Cymbalum
Andrew Gerzso, IRCAM Computer Music Design
Gilbert Nouno,IRCAM Computer Music Production
Jérémie Henrot,IRCAM Computer Engineer
Pierre Audi, mise-en-space
Urs Schönebaum, lighting designer
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on December 10, 2016, 02:15:57 PM
Just received the 2017 schedule for the Park Avenue Armory in New York, and very much looking forward to this in October. The vast Armory space, hard to tame, might be just the thing for this piece, depending on how they configure it.
According to the description, they will do the piece TWICE each night, so the audience can move to a different spot for the second performance -- an interesting idea.
http://www.armoryonpark.org/programs_events/detail/repons
Boulez: Répons
Ensemble intercontemporain
Matthias Pintscher, Conductor
Samuel Favre, Gilles Durot, Percussion
Dmitri Vassilakis, Hidéki Nagano, Piano
Frédérique Cambreling, Harp
Luigi Gaggero, Cymbalum
Andrew Gerzso, IRCAM Computer Music Design
Gilbert Nouno,IRCAM Computer Music Production
Jérémie Henrot,IRCAM Computer Engineer
Pierre Audi, mise-en-space
Urs Schönebaum, lighting designer
--Bruce
I REALLY REALLY wish I could see this! Matthias Pintscher is one of the best Boulez interpreters today and EIC have uploaded a video of him conducting it....probably even Better than Boulez's own. Unfortunately this is in such a difficult time of the year for me to go overseas....but I totally would if I had the money :laugh:
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on December 10, 2016, 02:18:00 PM
I listened to that last night, the complexity of the textures is amazing :D
Yes, delicious!
Quote from: jessop on December 10, 2016, 02:20:59 PM
I REALLY REALLY wish I could see this! Matthias Pintscher is one of the best Boulez interpreters today and EIC have uploaded a video of him conducting it....probably even Better than Boulez's own. Unfortunately this is in such a difficult time of the year for me to go overseas....but I totally would if I had the money :laugh:
The recording of Pintscher and the EIC is quite, quite good -- even though you don't get the spatial effects. But still, the sound quality is terrific, and you're right, it might be better than the one Boulez conducted.
--Bruce
Quote from: jessop on December 10, 2016, 02:20:59 PM
I REALLY REALLY wish I could see this! Matthias Pintscher is one of the best Boulez interpreters today and EIC have uploaded a video of him conducting it....probably even Better than Boulez's own. Unfortunately this is in such a difficult time of the year for me to go overseas....but I totally would if I had the money :laugh:
If your plans change, we'd love to have you. With a nice dinner and tour of the city on me.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 11, 2016, 09:44:10 AM
If your plans change, we'd love to have you. With a nice dinner and tour of the city on me.
Very kind of you, but unfortunately it will be a very busy month for me at university anyway with exams and things happening around then :)
Just came across a youtube upload of what appears to be an excerpt of a lecture given by Bernstein and also a performance conducted by Bernstein of some Boulez
https://www.youtube.com/v/hKkOAH8vFJc
Quote from: jessop on February 01, 2017, 07:57:43 PM
Just came across a youtube upload of what appears to be an excerpt of a lecture given by Bernstein and also a performance conducted by Bernstein of some Boulez
https://www.youtube.com/v/hKkOAH8vFJc
Apparently the only time Bernstein conducted music by the man who would replace him. Still, it's more than Boulez ever did for Bernstein's music, I'm sure!
I think the focus on complexity is overstated, when really the sonic result is the point, for Boulez as for (almost) everyone else, Structures Ia aside.
Quote from: Mahlerian on February 01, 2017, 09:10:58 PM
Apparently the only time Bernstein conducted music by the man who would replace him. Still, it's more than Boulez ever did for Bernstein's music, I'm sure!
I think the focus on complexity is overstated, when really the sonic result is the point, for Boulez as for (almost) everyone else, Structures Ia aside.
I agree. The association of composition with mathematics would bewilder a great many concert-goers who'd otherwise be content with a well considered rendition of beautiful music. What
is more interesting are the associations with specific musical styles Bernstein mentions.
This recent release of "Boulez sans Boulez" didn't get much publicity (I myself just found out about it today, and promptly ordered it, naturellement):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/410FBKsgG3L.jpg)
Good to have a new recording of Éclat (even if it is sans Multiples ::) )....
Quote from: ritter on March 04, 2017, 10:22:08 AM
This recent release of "Boulez sans Boulez" didn't get much publicity (I myself just found out about it today, and promptly ordered it, naturellement):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/410FBKsgG3L.jpg)
Good to have a new recording of Éclat (even if it is sans Multiples ::) )....
Looks really cool, but I don't know if I really need any more of these works in particular.....perhaps down the track if there are more recordings of
Multiples I'd consider getting some of those! 8)
Cross-posted from the WAYLT thread :
Quote from: ritter on March 10, 2017, 01:06:55 PM
Dérive 2 from this CD that has just been released:
[asin]B01MZAVQGM[/asin]
Daniel Barenboim and his West-Eastern Divan Orchestra give a stunning rendition of this intricate and Damascene score. The textures are perfectly clear, and the pacing feels so natural. Very, very good! A performance (live from the 2012 Proms) to do the composer proud.
Each time I listen to it, I enjoy this work more, and am increasingly convinced it's the best of Boulez's Spätstil , and one of the high points of his entire output.
The same conductor and ensemble gave a (long) Boulez / Ravel concert that included both
Dérives a couple of years ago here in Madrid, which I stupidly missed... :(
Another cross-post, this time from the "Unpublished Compositions" thread, as this might be more useful here:
Quote from: ritter on February 12, 2017, 05:40:19 AM
AFAIK, there's some works by Pierre Boulez that have never been published. I'm not referring to the withdrawn works (Poliphonie X, Poésie pour pouvoir, the apparently fragementary choral work Oubli signal lapidé . the early Trois Psalmodies--many of which were recorded in their time), but rather to the incidental music he wrote for Jean-Louis Barrault: L'Orestie and Ainsi parlait Zarathoustra. There's also the 5-movement version of the Third piano sonata (also recorded), or the original of Le soleil des eaux (as a radio play). I presume the manuscripts of all this are in the Paul Sacher Foundation in Basel, so perhaps some day these pieces will see the light of day...
Quote from: Mahlerian on February 12, 2017, 06:57:23 AM
He also claimed to have done work on other Notations and an expansion of Eclat/Multiples, I believe. Who knows how much of that got down onto paper.
Quote from: ritter on February 12, 2017, 11:25:07 AM
Indeed...and Claude Samuel in his liner notes to the Boulez Complete Works set on DG (issued in 2013) mentions that 13 minutes (IIRC) of Dérive 3 were already composed at the time...
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 13, 2017, 11:42:02 PM
Wasn't there an opera too?? I remember reading something about (the extraordinary absurdist play) Waiting for Godot, if that's correct. That would've been one of my favorite operas! (like Varese's lost L'Astronome )
Quote from: ritter on March 14, 2017, 12:10:48 AM
Yep, there was a rumour about that (never confirmed, but never fully denied by the composer either AFAIK).
Boulez envisaged three operatic projects throughout his career, all of them aborted. I actually had the chance to ask him directly about this in an online conversation with the composer hosted by the now defunct "Yellow Lounge" on the DG website (this was in the early 2000s, i.e. before the Godot rumours started circulating).
His first project was to have Jean Genet as librettist (Boulez always expressed his admiration for Genet's art, particularly for the way Les paravents is constructed form a dramatic point of view). Genet died of throat cancer before any real progress could be made on the text, so that was that. Next up was Heiner Müller (who was going to work on Oresteia--a subject matter the composer had already dealt with in his incidental music for J.-L. Barrault's staging of Aeschylus's trilogy in the mid-50s). Müller too died of throat cancer, so Boulez was naturally a bit apprehensive about approachng someone else. ::)
The En attendant Godot project seems to have been just that, a rumour, but there had even been talk of a premiere at la Scala in Milan (when that opera house was run by Stéphane Lissner). But perhaps something surfaces in the papers the composer left behind....
I think making the incidental music to L'Orestie available would be interesting, as perhaps this is as close as we could get to what a Boulez opera would have been like. Parts of the Barrault staging were available on video on the Radio France website during the celebrations of the composer's 90th birthday (I don't know if they are still accessible). I did read somewhere (it might have been in J.-L. Barrault's memoirs), though, that the scores were lost when the Théâtre de l'Odéon in Paris (home at the time of the Renaud-Barrault company) was stormed by students during the May 1968 "thing". >:(
Of course, to the Loyal Opposition, the En attendant Godot rumor was a win/win: if true, we would have a Boulez opera on a Theatre of the Absurd classic; if false, it's a deliciously wry jest.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 14, 2017, 04:44:50 AM
Of course, to the Loyal Opposition, the En attendant Godot rumor was a win/win: if true, we would have a Boulez opera on a Theatre of the Absurd classic; if false, it's a deliciously wry jest.
Indeed. ..and I think the good old
Maître was actually playing that game
vis-à-vis le cher public. ... ;)
Would not surprise me!
Anyone ever read anything from Boulez himself about the works he withdrew? Obviously I can imagine him being self-critical, but I always love listening to Poésie Pour Pouvoir and wonder if he has ever offered public insight regarding such things.
Quote from: nathanb on March 19, 2017, 11:09:50 AM
Anyone ever read anything from Boulez himself about the works he withdrew? Obviously I can imagine him being self-critical, but I always love listening to Poésie Pour Pouvoir and wonder if he has ever offered public insight regarding such things.
In the case of that work, I think he was dissatisfied with the medium of tape itself. I seem to recall he considered a revision of it. In the era of Repons and ...explosant fixe..., Boulez was quite critical of the fact that tape doesn't give performers any leeway and forces them to play to something like a click track, not allowing for any kind of interpretation that would alter the temporal relationship between the score and the tape.
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 19, 2017, 12:07:42 PMI think he was dissatisfied with the medium of tape itself.
Boulez seemed to be a very insecure composer. We all know he had a big mouth. If he claimed to be dissatisfied, it really ment that his own abilities to produce anything remarkable within it were lacking and the results were less than stellar. And he was seeing what an esteemed colleague of his was getting done within the medium and thinking out of slight jealously .. damn, I could have never come close to that and i tried, must withdraw ..
Quote from: James on March 19, 2017, 12:28:43 PM
Boulez seemed to be a very insecure composer. We all know he had a big mouth. If he claimed to be dissatisfied, it really ment that his own abilities to produce anything remarkable within it were lacking and the results were less than stellar. And he was seeing what an esteemed colleague of his was getting done within the medium and thinking out of slight jealously .. damn, I could have never come close to that and i tried, must withdraw ..
"Le tape c'est merde!"
More literature on/by Pierre Boulez coming to the market.
This book (of haphazard distribution, it seems) includes 30 years worth of interviews, collected by Bruno Serrou. It was released past february.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31295dm1f4L.jpg)
I've ordered it directly from the publishing house. Let's see what it contains.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 27, 2017, 02:10:25 AM
I disagree, from my observations, he was a composer who judged (or interpreted) the merit of the music he listened, studied and conducted in accordance with his own artistic vision and values.
As for tape/electronic music is particular, from what I remember; didn't he believe (like Ligeti) that electronics where still too adolescent to produce anything "long lasting"? ::)
I tend to agree with you,
alien. Apart from the fact that these theories of "X was jealous of Y" (when we're talking, in this case, of two titanic figures of 20th century music) make little sense IMHO,
Boulez himself (in an interview I read of his form the early 2000s) acknowledged
Stockhausen's inventiveness (apart from having earlier saluted him as his only "peer" among living composers ;D). When the interviewer expressed some surprise at that remark, Boulez added: "I said he was inventive, not that he was self-critical"
(*). And that, I believe, is in essence the diffrence in the way those two men worked.
And yes,
Boulez "gave up" on the use of tape in his compositions, but then the contribution he made to the use of real-time electronics (the IRCAM software that is so widespread these days) is immense, and he put it to stunning use in a work like
Répons (which really has to be experienced live to understand what it is all about).
(*) He then went one, in his usally humorous-malicious manner, to say that the only thing that could make the Helicopter SQ interesting was for "one of the helicpoiters to crash or something like that". :laugh: 0:)
If you understand French you can listen to this interview of Boulez's nephew (and film producer) Pierre Chevalier who wrote a few interesting things about his uncle. For those who are fond of gossips you will even learn that Boulez and a very famous French/Spanish actress had a love affair in the 50' but that they split up because she wanted to make a "ménage à trois" with..... Albert Camus but Boulez didn't want to...
Pierre Chevalier add too that despite what it has been said his uncle was not gay and had a "monastic" way of life.
They also speak of more musically oriented things :-)
https://www.francemusique.fr/emissions/classic-club/boulez-intime-33197
The Quatuor Diotima in this interview, says that Boulez's Livre pour quatuor will be "finished" by Philippe Manoury, next year.... They say Boulez has gave them enough clues and advices to let someone else add the required details.... First time someone will touch the work of the master. Perhaps the same could be done with Notations.....?
http://brunoserrou.blogspot.be/2017/04/quatuor-diotima-21-ans-douverture.html
Quote from: ritter on March 27, 2017, 02:37:38 AM
I tend to agree with you, alien. Apart from the fact that these theories of "X was jealous of Y" (when we're talking, in this case, of two titanic figures of 20th century music) make little sense IMHO, Boulez himself (in an interview I read of his form the early 2000s) acknowledged Stockhausen's inventiveness (apart from having earlier saluted him as his only "peer" among living composers ;D). When the interviewer expressed some surprise at that remark, Boulez added: "I said he was inventive, not that he was self-critical" (*). And that, I believe, is in essence the diffrence in the way those two men worked.
And yes, Boulez "gave up" on the use of tape in his compositions, but then the contribution he made to the use of real-time electronics (the IRCAM software that is so widespread these days) is immense, and he put it to stunning use in a work like Répons (which really has to be experienced live to understand what it is all about).
(*) He then went one, in his usally humorous-malicious manner, to say that the only thing that could make the Helicopter SQ interesting was for "one of the helicpoiters to crash or something like that". :laugh: 0:)
Honestly, Boulez is a virtual non-entity when it comes to composition and the larger musical picture. Stockhausen was a much, much better musician and composer. Ditto Ligeti .. (the greatest of the 3) .. but still all of them are extremely uneven and really nothing compared to the Greats.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 12, 2017, 03:46:57 PM
Compared to themselves? ???
They are the greats 8)
Nowhere damn near them to be realistic. Anyone who believes otherwise is completely delusional.
Quote from: James on April 12, 2017, 04:03:51 PMAnyone who believes otherwise is completely delusional.
Apparently oblivious to irony.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
I've said it so many times before, the 2nd half of the 20th century was mostly failure and produced very little of value. Much of what Boulez & Stockhausen did just ain't that musical at all, especially when you stack up it against the titans of classical music. It more sounds like a bunch of scientists toying with formulas. It's so lacking in many, many regards. This is why at the end of the day, it doesn't speak to most people at all, nor will it ever. You just have to be realistic and as objective as possible about these things!
Quote from: James on April 12, 2017, 04:21:42 PM
I've said it so many times before, the music of my day was mostly failure and produced very little of value. Much of what those damn radicals did just ain't that musical at all, especially when you stack up it against the titans of classical music. It more sounds like a bunch of scientists toying with formulas. It's so lacking in many, many regards. This is why at the end of the day, it doesn't speak to most people at all, nor will it ever. You just have to be realistic and objective as possible about these things!
There. Now it can be a rant from anyone of any era!
James saying Stockhausen is not all that great?
Obviously an alien from Yuggoth has taken over his mind.
Nice snowclone, but Gesualdo lived in the 16th-early 17th century, and the other two in the 12th century.
Quote from: James on April 12, 2017, 04:21:42 PM
I've said it so many times before, the 2nd half of the 20th century was mostly failure and produced very little of value. Much of what Boulez & Stockhausen did just ain't that musical at all, especially when you stack up it against the titans of classical music. It more sounds like a bunch of scientists toying with formulas. It's so lacking in many, many regards. This is why at the end of the day, it doesn't speak to most people at all, nor will it ever. You just have to be realistic and as objective as possible about these things!
I know what you're saying.
The quickest way I know of for a Classical Snob to get a taste of the real world, is to play some cherished Masterpiece of High Modernism... look folks, it really only takes early Schoenberg,... anyhow, play this piece that YOU JUST KNOW this friend/lover/family memebr/respected person... just a "normal" person, and play them you piece,... and then watch the reaction... which shouldn't take long!
Look, I was in the car with this one lady, and I had brought Schubert Trios... I don't know, I thought they'd be soothing... NO!!...and when she started to "OMG, turn that shit off I can't think, how can you listen to that..." and she made screetchy violin skrank noises... and I was listening to the music, and in my mind,... I had to agree... it was at a particularly "emotional" point, and yes, the piano and strings were all aflutter everywhere, and yes, it wasn't what ANYONE SHOULD WANT TO HEAR. And here we are blasting Boulez et al, and now I'm hearing Schubert as a musical trainwreck of emotion because it wasn't SOOTHING. And Shumann?,... please.
So, normal people like the first few moments of Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto, and then, when the "cool part" ends, and the reality of Classical Music begins, normal people just hear wanka wanka wanka wanka wanka.
Now getting back to the point...
Play "Your Music" to anyone you like, you'll probably get the kind of reaction that will make you run to turn it off, feeling you may become sullied with their ignorance if you let them hear just one more second of your Precious. It's happened to me.
"Oh man, when you hear this Xenakis, you're really going to flip"
Then, the crickets.
Your face goes white. "Oh no, could I be living a lie? My friend thinks it's shit. What?... Wait... I need my safe space"
Oh, lol, Mirror Image, you need to play some Schnittke to your family or friends... I gotta hear how that goes!
I remember I played something for someone once, and at once I could hear AS THEM, and thinking, this is insane, egotistical bullshit elitist crap. I turned it off immediately and put on some... Kansas, or something ( :laugh:)... "tone wooshes"
NORMAL PEOPLE THINK "TONE WOOSH" MUSIC IS CLASSICAL MUSIC!! That includes,... gulp,... Yanni.
I know, I'm ranting.
But, guys, the music we love SUCKS!! Embrace it!! I've been listening to 'Canticum Sacrum' a lot lately,.. and,... I kiiinda like it,... but I KNOW it "sucks", because, duuude, compared to Bach,... come on. ANY NORMAL PERSON would have us committed if they could.
SDOOO.........
MORAL OF THE STORY
MORAL OF THE STORY
MORAL OF THE STORY
Be thankful that we have a bunch of nerd heads here that we can have such wanky great conversations with, fighting amongst ourselves, and debating the finer points of the hairs on a camel's ass (basically, right?). So, please, everybody, we seriously haaave to take some humor to all this horribly challenging music... because,... frankly... guys... most of it sounds like farts and bleeps..
Your mother STILL loves you though, even though you listen to that godless crap!!
"Don't you have any nice music?"
It's probably no accident that the Hadyn Thread is right below this one right now.
I like 'Live pour Quatuor', which no one seems to like; I think it's an effluous(?) Webern.
I like 'Repons' and all that kind of stuff, but I wish they were written by someone else with more of a sense of humor and gamesmanship: even though 'Repons' does have the interaction and ping/pong effect, his style could have benefited from a Donatoni like humor and bubbling effervescence.
How dry is 'Pli Selon Pli' compared to the driest Stravinsky?
I mean, no one else clung to the comb over like Boulez,... he was hiding something... his hatred of his own music?
A Great Willful Conductor
Quote from: Joaquimhock on April 10, 2017, 11:57:01 PM
If you understand French you can listen to this interview of Boulez's nephew (and film producer) Pierre Chevalier who wrote a few interesting things about his uncle. For those who are fond of gossips you will even learn that Boulez and a very famous French/Spanish actress had a love affair in the 50' but that they split up because she wanted to make a "ménage à trois" with..... Albert Camus but Boulez didn't want to...
Pierre Chevalier add too that despite what it has been said his uncle was not gay and had a "monastic" way of life.
They also speak of more musically oriented things :-)
https://www.francemusique.fr/emissions/classic-club/boulez-intime-33197
Strange the contrasts between Boulez the liberal easy going soft touch of an uncle who liked a laugh in his private life, Boulez the tough guy in his work life, and Boulez the person who allegedly said that he would if he could live like a monk in a cell (I bet he said that when he was drunk after a hard day of imposing his ego at work.) Pierre Chevalier comes across as a nice chap.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 12, 2017, 06:09:17 PM
I'll leave that direct attempt at a personal insult aside for the moment
You mustn't feel insulted by James. If a day goes by when he hasn't made an assertion which implies that he knows everything, and that anyone who disagrees with him is ignorant, he thinks it a day wasted. He might be a bot.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 12, 2017, 09:58:35 PM
A Great Willful Conductor
Certainly a more successful conductor than composer. He knew it too, and it's the reason he spent more time on that. Had he just tried surviving on his ability to compose, 'he' would have faded into obscurity (much like his own music). Overall, a minor figure in the grand scheme of things and by and large a failed composer. To be real about things.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 12, 2017, 09:57:42 PMHow dry is 'Pli Selon Pli' compared to the driest Stravinsky?
Not at all. It's quite a passionate piece, and very lush in timbre. The bon mot attributed to Stravinsky about it being monotonously pretty and pretty monotonous probably was really from Craft, though.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 12, 2017, 09:42:08 PM
It's probably no accident that the Haydn Thread is right below this one right now.
There are no accidents . . . only varying degrees of intent . . . .
Quote from: snyprrr on April 12, 2017, 09:40:53 PM
I know what you're saying.
The quickest way I know of for a Classical Snob to get a taste of the real world, is to play some cherished Masterpiece of High Modernism... look folks, it really only takes early Schoenberg,... anyhow, play this piece that YOU JUST KNOW this friend/lover/family memebr/respected person... just a "normal" person, and play them you piece,... and then watch the reaction... which shouldn't take long!
Look, I was in the car with this one lady, and I had brought Schubert Trios... I don't know, I thought they'd be soothing... NO!!...and when she started to "OMG, turn that shit off I can't think, how can you listen to that..." and she made screetchy violin skrank noises... and I was listening to the music, and in my mind,... I had to agree... it was at a particularly "emotional" point, and yes, the piano and strings were all aflutter everywhere, and yes, it wasn't what ANYONE SHOULD WANT TO HEAR. And here we are blasting Boulez et al, and now I'm hearing Schubert as a musical trainwreck of emotion because it wasn't SOOTHING. And Shumann?,... please.
This belatedly reminded me of a review I happened to come across on Amazon yesterday. As far as I can tell by this guy's reviews, he's entirely serious here:
Quote
Lousy
I previously heard this String Quintet performed by some forgotten group, and I did not like it. Today I decided to give this String Quintet a second chance, as performed by musicians with stellar reputations. It is a subpar composition for Schubert. In movements 1-3 the forte passages are indistinguishable from noise. In movements 1 & 2 the cello pizzicato is so loud that it distracts from the melody (what little there is). I must admit that part of movement 3 is pretty. Movement 4 is so agitated that it is disturbing. This is music to be endured rather than enjoyed. I have listened to a lot of classical music since 1968, and this is the worst I've ever heard, aside from 3 works by Benjamin Britten.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RM8EG8MY37TDI/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000V6MR8Q
QuoteI previously heard this String Quintet performed by some forgotten group, and I did not like it. Today I decided to give this String Quintet a second chance, as performed by musicians with stellar reputations. It is a subpar composition for Schubert. In movements 1-3 the forte passages are indistinguishable from noise. In movements 1 & 2 the cello pizzicato is so loud that it distracts from the melody (what little there is). I must admit that part of movement 3 is pretty. Movement 4 is so agitated that it is disturbing. This is music to be endured rather than enjoyed. I have listened to a lot of classical music since 1968, and this is the worst I've ever heard, aside from 3 works by Benjamin Britten.
Slightly adjusted for style, but not at all for content, that reads like any number of James's posts.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 13, 2017, 09:12:43 AM
Slightly adjusted for style, but not at all for content, that reads like any number of James's posts.
:'( :'( :'(LEAVE JAMES ALONE! :'( :'( :'(
Forget to take your meds again, Alien? ;D
Quote from: snyprrr on April 13, 2017, 07:17:02 PM
:'( :'( :'(LEAVE JAMES ALONE! :'( :'( :'(
Sure, let's give Snowflake a Safe Space ;)
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 13, 2017, 08:22:05 PM
Nah, just feeling amused (and much better) today.
Good! I dig the fins, real futuristic.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 13, 2017, 08:22:05 PM
Nah, just feeling amused (and much better) today.
To this day, I am still perplexed by the very confrontational attitudes I've come across towards modern music. I've never understood it, I guess I never will.
When I first heard Pli Selon Pli, it was so a thrilling experience and I've come to love it very much, same with the sonatas and Repons etc.
My relationship with modern music, seems to be similar to many older *other people's profound love of Romantic and Classical era music, I don't know.
I JUST DON'T GET IT :'( :'(
I've just a had a 7 hour car trip and I'm in another city for the week. I'm feeling very inspired right now ;D
I haaated Modern Music at first. 'Tetras'?... huh boy, first time I heard that, of course my ABBA trigger kicked in and I was like whaaaa? Ahen I say Carter's tough nut Brass Quintet at school, and thought it was horrid. I would be vicious like one of these protester types, smashing modern music's storefront and setting it on fire.
I don't know what happened.
Maybe Turangalila or something like that ,,..something that SOUNDED FUN. I mean, Boulez ... I don't really think of his music as "fun", even though 'Sur Incises' has a tumbling, rolling fun feeling... but... not like Donatoni...
I mean, seriously, Modern Music IS, technically, MEANT to sound "bad" Right? To "normal people", Again I challenge to play your fav bloop/nleep for anyone of the unwashed and see what happens. They haven't been programmed like us and will see through the first tritone and call BS.
I mean... is Music really heading anywhere right now? Isn't it so that we HAVE LOST... SOMETHING? I mean, there are no musical giants getting on the cover of Time... music has died... it's no longer useful to the DeepPoliceState
just wait till the muslin overthrow of the Western World, then it's going to be hali-ali-ali-ahhhh all day and night.
Xenakis thought in Utopian terms but I see NONE of this Greatness around today... none of has survived (it didn't even last his career- his last pieces speak of exhaustion and death... no more Utopia)
I mean, you DO understand how/why "Normies" will never come around to this. It's just not "natural". People want natural. Ordered. That's why you'd have to try the EASIEST Xenakis on anyone, if there were such a thing- I'm sure my mommu would like 'A Helene' or whatever that piece is.
To me, Schoebergian technique IS the sound of "mental illness" (since it only seems to reflect agitated states of emotion), and normal people hear it as... wait for it... yes.... "horror movie music"
I mean, you DO actually "get it", right? And James is just playing Devil's Advocate, reminding us that the greater outside world still thinks we are nerds... like those annoying people on pool leagues or bicycle clubs.
Just be thankful, for instance, that you and I both share love for Xenakis... that's just ONE PERSON, but you have to be grateful. I am ;),...
as for Boulez... mm... yea... I would've wanted MOAR... I'll stick with IX here... Boulez seems like he's the "mean teacher" type, lol, IX is more like James Dean...
We're definitely in the minority
Quote from: snyprrr on April 14, 2017, 06:44:52 AMTo me, Schoebergian technique IS the sound of "mental illness" (since it only seems to reflect agitated states of emotion), and normal people hear it as... wait for it... yes.... "horror movie music"
Which is strange, because horror movie music sounds nothing like Schoenberg. It usually sounds more like a bunch of techniques cribbed from early Penderecki thrown together.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 14, 2017, 06:44:52 AM
. . . of course my ABBA trigger kicked in . . . .
No one here can deny that you are ready to make yourself vulnerable.
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 14, 2017, 07:00:53 AM
Which is strange, because horror movie music sounds nothing like Schoenberg. It usually sounds more like a bunch of techniques cribbed from early Penderecki thrown together.
The Exorcist in fact used excerpts from several works by
Penderecki, as well as excerpts from works by
Crumb, Webern, and
Henze.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 14, 2017, 06:44:52 AM
I mean, seriously, Modern Music IS, technically, MEANT to sound "bad" Right? To "normal people"
You've got a very strange grasp of the stick. I should say, instead, that Modern Music cannot remain within the musical technique of the "normal person's" (leaving that stand for the present) Comfort Zone.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 14, 2017, 06:44:52 AM
To me, Schoebergian technique IS the sound of "mental illness"
Like
Mahlerian, I don't hear this at all, all (nor do I believe I heard it at all in that way the very first I listened to it). Rather than (as was my first impulse) provide 10 counter-examples, would you give us
your examples?
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 13, 2017, 08:22:05 PM
Nah, just feeling amused (and much better) today.
To this day, I am still perplexed by the very confrontational attitudes I've come across towards modern music. I've never understood it, I guess I never will.
When I first heard Pli Selon Pli, it was so a thrilling experience and I've come to love it very much, same with the sonatas and Repons etc.
My relationship with modern music, seems to be similar to many older *other people's profound love of Romantic and Classical era music, I don't know.
I JUST DON'T GET IT :'( :'(
I've just a had a 7 hour car trip and I'm in another city for the week. I'm feeling very inspired right now ;D
Mind you, I am at least thirty five years older than you, so my ears started off at a different place. A lot of the music you like was not even in existence yet when I was in college, or produced in the last fifteen years and not heard very often. Karajan and Bernstein were still on the podium. Rap did not exist, and Led Zeppelin was about the heaviest metal around (although that changing).
So when I heard much of that music, it was to my ears ugly, and your "composed by a cat" remark does apply. It still does, to me. I don't like Maitre sans Marteau, and it put me off Boulez for years, until I got myself to listen to his later works. Same for Schoenberg (I still don't like anything not from his earlier period) and Ligeti, although eventually I got to terms with him. And I liked Berg from the first note I heard, btw Anything Darmstadtian, so to speak, grates on my ears. A lot of the middle 20th century is stuff that just does not strike a chord with me.
Trends in the last twenty years or so have produced much more music I like. You remember how I said I liked later Penderecki more than earlier, and that is why. I did find better luck with works for small forces. That's how I worked myself into Ligeti, and trying off and on with Carter.
But I would not call any of this music "mental illness". And to keep this to the composer to whom this thread is dedicated, I find later Boulez much more easier to connect with than earlier Boulez.
I tend to feel more of a connection with music written closer to the time I have been alive....late Boulez being one such type of music. Earlier Boulez is brilliant and I love it to bits, but for me, those are museum pieces now rather than anything representative of 'music today.'
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 13, 2017, 08:22:05 PM
Nah, just feeling amused (and much better) today.
To this day, I am still perplexed by the very confrontational attitudes I've come across towards modern music. I've never understood it, I guess I never will.
When I first heard Pli Selon Pli, it was so a thrilling experience and I've come to love it very much, same with the sonatas and Repons etc.
My relationship with modern music, seems to be similar to many older *other people's profound love of Romantic and Classical era music, I don't know.
I JUST DON'T GET IT :'( :'(
I've just a had a 7 hour car trip and I'm in another city for the week. I'm feeling very inspired right now ;D
I think I'll reply to this as my buddy Jeffrey Smith already put his personal yet eloquent spin on it. Like Jeffrey, I started off in a completely different place than you did when it came to classical music. First of all, nobody, aside from my grandfather and uncle whom I never spoke to about music much, liked classical music. When I did ask my grandfather for some recommendations, he gave me a pretty standard list: Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Brahms, Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, Wagner, etc. Well, I knew these composers even though I didn't
know their music, I also knew that I was going to have to explore this music on my own and just dive in head-first. Whenever I saw an interview in a magazine of one of my favorite jazz guitarists mention Bartók, I was intrigued. After this encounter, I had heard Copland's
Billy the Kid but in a jazz band arrangement. Ives was also a name I ran across that I kept in the back of my mind. Where I'm getting at is we all start off in a different place and what we're influenced by or are inspired to explore forms the foundation of our appreciation of this music. I love the late-19th up to mid-20th Centuries the most of any period. Like Jeffrey, I can easily get onboard with
The Second Viennese School and I do love more Schoenberg than he does, but I'm also quite versed in post-WWII composers like Ligeti, Scelsi, Takemitsu, Lutoslawski, Schnittke, among others. There's a lot of music that I just don't get and does absolutely nothing for me, but I have found that most of it comes from the second half of the 20th Century and well into our current time.
All of this said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with someone who is only into Baroque or Classical Era music just like there's nothing wrong with someone who focuses on music of our current era only. You should explore and listen to music that you like and it's really as simple as that. It would be wrong-headed, and ignorant, of me to point my finger at you and tell you that you're not listening to music correctly or you should be listening to this or that composer. There is no wrong way to listen and explore music. That's the beauty of it. No judgement should be passed on anyone for pursuing music that they have an immense interest and passion for.
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 14, 2017, 07:00:53 AM
Which is strange, because horror movie music sounds nothing like Schoenberg. It usually sounds more like a bunch of techniques cribbed from early Penderecki thrown together.
I don't know why the "mental illness" image is poo-pooed. Who was it that said that after Wagner, it was a "race to the graveyard" in terms of the emotional states that the new extensions of tonality was creating?
I mean, Schoenberg DOESN'T illuminate more stressed out emotional states than, say, ... uh... Tchaikovsky? And, isn't the music called EXPRESSIONISM? Expressive of what? Extreme emotional states.
Wasn't that the point?
For the most part, I'm ONLY reflecting what I've heard the NORMIES say, and THEY say it "all" sounds like horror movie music- I know it doesn't really, but, of course, we all know what they're saying. It's not Mozart or Haydn.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 14, 2017, 07:13:19 AM
You've got a very strange grasp of the stick. I should say, instead, that Modern Music cannot remain within the musical technique of the "normal person's" (leaving that stand for the present) Comfort Zone.
Like Mahlerian, I don't hear this at all, all (nor do I believe I heard it at all in that way the very first I listened to it). Rather than (as was my first impulse) provide 10 counter-examples, would you give us your examples?
Elliott Carter. Period.
Stockhausen/ Boulez/ Nono. Period.
Sessions. Period.
Lucier/ Young/ uh.... Period.
What was the argument again? It's a nice day outside... can't we all just get along? :-\
Quote from: snyprrr on April 15, 2017, 09:38:41 AM
I don't know why the "mental illness" image is poo-pooed. Who was it that said that after Wagner, it was a "race to the graveyard" in terms of the emotional states that the new extensions of tonality was creating?
Whoever it was probably took Adorno far more seriously than he deserves. Whatever use his writings may be (and I respect him for having been one of the first to write perceptively on Mahler, however much I disagree with his conclusions), he is not a reliable guide to the way Schoenberg thought about his own music. Schoenberg despised Adorno and felt nearly the opposite on many issues.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 15, 2017, 09:38:41 AMI mean, Schoenberg DOESN'T illuminate more stressed out emotional states than, say, ... uh... Tchaikovsky? And, isn't the music called EXPRESSIONISM? Expressive of what? Extreme emotional states.
Wasn't that the point?
Yes and no.
Schoenberg did turn to non-triadic harmony in response to an impulse to express emotions more directly. Expressionism was not his term, but one that was applied by critics after the fact. At the time, many critics called his music "impressionist," to connect it with the ultra-modern music of Debussy and those around him, and some used the terms interchangeably. It is true that, like Schoenberg's music of this period, most impressionist music is not traditionally tonal.
Likewise, the emotional states in the music are heightened and intensified, but they are not by any means wholly negative. Pierrot lunaire, for example, traverses a whole range of emotions, from the ironic to the wistful, and the first music of this style, the "Rapture" movement of the Second Quartet, is transcendent, not alienated but ethereal.
Music of the serial period (which is not generally called expressionist) has an even wider emotional range.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 15, 2017, 09:38:41 AMFor the most part, I'm ONLY reflecting what I've heard the NORMIES say, and THEY say it "all" sounds like horror movie music- I know it doesn't really, but, of course, we all know what they're saying. It's not Mozart or Haydn.
Normal people don't listen to
any classical music. And no, I certainly don't know what they're saying, because for one person "dissonant and modern" can be Debussy, for another Schoenberg, for another Mahler, for another Philip Glass, and so on. I have no clue what an individual's perception is when they use a cliched phrase to express it.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 15, 2017, 09:38:41 AM
Elliott Carter. Period.
Stockhausen/ Boulez/ Nono. Period.
Sessions. Period.
You add "period" because you know that you haven't answered the question, haven't made an argument. 0:)
Elliott Carter?
http://www.youtube.com/v/pZpUfwN67xA
Boulez?
http://www.youtube.com/v/98COFqc7-NE
I do not hear that as
the music of mental illness, at all, at all. Do you? Why?
Sessions did not employ
Schoenbergian technique. Period ;)
(Neither did
Carter, really.
That brush broad enough for ya?)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 15, 2017, 10:27:10 AM
You add "period" because you know that you haven't answered the question, haven't made an argument. 0:)
Elliott Carter?
http://www.youtube.com/v/pZpUfwN67xA
Boulez?
http://www.youtube.com/v/98COFqc7-NE
I do not hear that as the music of mental illness, at all, at all. Do you? Why?
Sessions did not employ Schoenbergian technique. Period ;)
(Neither did Carter, really. That brush broad enough for ya?)
Of course not the Cello Sonata, I'm talking Mature Compositions...
Using the "technique" isn't the point, it's the "hard on the noob ears" effect, the rigorous,... the manly...
I mean, sure, I'll just end the conversation with one word: Ives. To me, Ives has enough for grandma to enjoy, but, because he's Da Man, and believes people should take their dissonances as such, ole granny STILL won't have her nursery rhyme music to make he feel safe and good.
I hope you all realize I'm just making granny's argument here- it's not me (riiight??)- and, frankly, again, just to end the confusion- FUCK GRANNY'S EARS!!
But, my point here is is that, generally, granny DOES somehow rule the world, and people who like their music straight up are asked to go into the corner- I mean, this will never be MAINSTREAM- I don't know if anyone here is actually harboring that sentiment (that OUR MUSIC MUST BE HEARD), but, hey, just be grateful you actually have Sessions and Carter and Boulez and whatever...
Still, I'll go as far as 95% of all is shyte... but, as Scripture says, one will seek out buried treasure.... BURIED in a mountain of shyte...
I have this CRI disc by Donald Harris, a typical Modern American Composer, with a String Quartet from 1971(?), and the thing is about as doctrinaire a typical gnarly-ish Serial-ish work as one could ask for. It's pretty well pruned in my estimation, but, ultimately, it resides in a bucket with about a billion other works that sound soooooo much like it I end up just picking one or two for an example. (how this is different than 1793, I don't know)...
Karl, don't you have a granny somewhere? I mean, you've never had a normie look at you funny when you tried to play "this cool new work" for them? Don't you write somewhat gnarly music? Do you have a granddaughter you could play it for?- I'd love to know the out of mouths of babes-
"Oh, I love you uncle Karl, but why don't you write any NICE music?"
You've really never heard this?
I know it's hard trying to make this (lost) point to the converted... here at GMG,... but you all seem to be acting like the world at large doesn't know in its heart of hearts that we are all somewhat "off" for even giving a tritone the light of day...
Yea, trolling the Boulez Thread isn't what I had hoped for. :(
Just gonna post this here, it is from a performance at the Bendigo International Festival of Exploratory Music (BIFEM) in 2015.
https://soundcloud.com/bifemsoundarchive/sur-incises-by-pierre-boulez-1996-98
Interested to know what you all think of the performance. There's something I like about the roughness here, which I think is quite nice.........certainly performed with lots of character. It is noticeably slower than EIC/Boulez.
Mark Berry on Répons in Vienna last week: http://boulezian.blogspot.com.es/2017/06/klangforum-wienbronnimann-boulez-19.html.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JoYVNU95kME/WU02GYBzhsI/AAAAAAAAD64/r-gWcIFPY_gvjwb4uuF_gZTkC_mg58t2QCLcBGAs/s640/170t.jpg)
I would agree with Mr. Berry that any concert of this work is an "occasion", and would add that its greatness can only be fully appreciated in live performance.
Oh man I wish I had the opportunity to see it live. :(
Why mus it never be performed where I can see it!
The following CD release is announced for next week:
(http://www.stradivarius.it/copertine/8011570370884.jpg)
Pascal Gallois had already recorded Le Marteau... and Éclat (on a CD that also includes Dialogue de l'ombre double).
What's new on this release it that it includes Boulez specialist Dimitri Vassilakis playing a short piano piece (from 1987) with the (quite revealing) title Fragment d'une ébauche, which was first played in public in 2013 in the composer's presence. I can't imagine these 30" of music being all that special, but well... ;)
Other works ion the disc are Dérive 1, the Third Piano Sonata, plus Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht.
Quote from: ritter on September 06, 2017, 05:06:50 AM
Other works on the disc are ... the Third Piano Sonata
Weird. Vassilakis already recorded the Third Piano Sonata and the other sonatas on the "Pierre Boulez und das Klavier" release on Cybele Records. That release was on a SACD with surround sound, so there's really no point of doing this again in Stradivarius's usually unspectacular sound.
Quote from: CRCulver on September 07, 2017, 03:40:17 PM
Weird. Vassilakis already recorded the Third Piano Sonata and the other sonatas on the "Pierre Boulez und das Klavier" release on Cybele Records. That release was on a SACD with surround sound, so there's really no point of doing this again in Stradivarius's usually unspectacular sound.
[asin]B008L69IPS[/asin]
Indeed... perhaps
Vassilakis makes other interpretative choices this time around, given the aleatoric elements of the
Third Piano Sonata. But still, curious that he commits the work to disc twice in such relatively quick succession, even more so since his Cybele disc already included the (unpublished?) "formant"
Sigle.
This week, hearing Répons, with Matthias Pintscher and Ensemble intercontemporain, staged at the enormous Park Avenue Armory here -- the size of an airplane hangar. (You can hear the piece with Pintscher and the group on YouTube, in very good audio/video.)
The interesting part: They're doing it twice each night, and the audience will change seats for the second performance, for a "new sonic perspective." I have high expectations.
http://armoryonpark.org/programs_events/detail/repons
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on September 30, 2017, 04:09:53 AM
This week, hearing Répons, with Matthias Pintscher and Ensemble intercontemporain, staged at the enormous Park Avenue Armory here -- the size of an airplane hangar. (You can hear the piece with Pintscher and the group on YouTube, in very good audio/video.)
The interesting part: They're doing it twice each night, and the audience will change seats for the second performance, for a "new sonic perspective." I have high expectations.
http://armoryonpark.org/programs_events/detail/repons
--Bruce
Boulez used to get the audience to change places half way through, he did that in the 1982 London prom performance.
Quote from: Brewski on September 30, 2017, 04:09:53 AM
This week, hearing Répons, with Matthias Pintscher and Ensemble intercontemporain, staged at the enormous Park Avenue Armory here -- the size of an airplane hangar. (You can hear the piece with Pintscher and the group on YouTube, in very good audio/video.)
The interesting part: They're doing it twice each night, and the audience will change seats for the second performance, for a "new sonic perspective." I have high expectations.
http://armoryonpark.org/programs_events/detail/repons
--Bruce
In conjunction with that performance, the
Wall Street Journal published an article under their
Masterpiece section:
Quote In the early '90s, ... Pierre Boulez...was giving a Carnegie Hall workshop for young conductors. At one point an apprehensive participant was leading the orchestra through the beginning of a contemporary piece—the kind of rhythmically complex, texturally intricate music that was Mr. Boulez's stock in trade—and though the student was giving it his all, it just wasn't working.
The young man's hands, arms and shoulders meticulously delineated the work's every musical detail, offering the players a perfect roadmap to follow, yet the sound of the orchestra was stiff and aimless. "You can't do that to the musicians," admonished Mr. Boulez, before explaining that by subdividing every difficult rhythm and micromanaging each element in the score, he had succeeded only in creating excessive tension in the performers. Then Mr. Boulez raised his own arm in a single sweeping gesture and the ensemble suddenly came to life, the music opening up like a blossoming flower.
Despite his reputation for mathematical precision and formal rigor, the French master was avowing the primacy of sonic beauty. It shouldn't have been a great surprise: Much of his original music traffics in such contrasts, reconciling the twin poles of strict organization and spontaneous play, or the impulse to spin logical structures with the visceral pleasure of basking in instrumental color.
No Boulez work demonstrates this philosophical friction more than "Répons" ("Response"), a 1981 composition (later revised) for six pitched-percussion soloists, an ensemble of strings and winds, and live electronics, lasting 45 minutes.
See:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/composing-organized-delirium-1506715586 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/composing-organized-delirium-1506715586)
Quote from: Brewski on September 30, 2017, 04:09:53 AM
This week, hearing Répons, with Matthias Pintscher and Ensemble intercontemporain, staged at the enormous Park Avenue Armory here -- the size of an airplane hangar. (You can hear the piece with Pintscher and the group on YouTube, in very good audio/video.)
The interesting part: They're doing it twice each night, and the audience will change seats for the second performance, for a "new sonic perspective." I have high expectations.
http://armoryonpark.org/programs_events/detail/repons
--Bruce
Splendid! I envy you, and hope your high expectations are surpassed. I've said this before: I saw the piece conducted by the composer here in Madrid (in a sports arena) in 1992, and it was one of the highlights of my concert-going life. We only got to hear it once (it was preceded by
Dialogue de l'ombre double played by
Alain Damiens), but we did get
Boulez conducting
Le Marteau sans maître on the following evening in the National Auditorium. :)
Do report,
Bruce, if you feel like it. I'd love to know your impressions. 8)
Quote from: The WSJDespite his reputation for mathematical precision and formal rigor, the French master was avowing the primacy of sonic beauty. It shouldn't have been a great surprise: Much of his original music traffics in such contrasts, reconciling the twin poles of strict organization and spontaneous play, or the impulse to spin logical structures with the visceral pleasure of basking in instrumental color.
No Boulez work demonstrates this philosophical friction more than "Répons" ("Response"), a 1981 composition (later revised) for six pitched-percussion soloists, an ensemble of strings and winds, and live electronics, lasting 45 minutes.
I think these two paragraphs very aptly summarize one of the reasons why many of us (or at least, I ;)) find
PB's music so infintely appealing. When I used the word "sensuous" in a recent discussion in the WAYLTN thread, I meant exactly this.
Cheers,
Quote from: Cato on September 30, 2017, 05:10:46 AM
In conjunction with that performance, the Wall Street Journal published an article under their Masterpiece section:
See:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/composing-organized-delirium-1506715586 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/composing-organized-delirium-1506715586)
Very nice!
Quote from: ritter on September 30, 2017, 06:05:09 AM
I think these two paragraphs very aptly summarize one of the reasons why many of us (or at least, I ;) ) find PB's music so infinitely appealing. When I used the word "sensuous" in a recent discussion in the WAYLTN thread, I meant exactly this.
I could endorse that entirely, with the personal alteration of removal of the adverb
infinitely (which is not at all to say that your own finding should be at all otherwise than infinite) 8)
Quote from: Brewski on September 30, 2017, 04:09:53 AM
This week, hearing Répons, with Matthias Pintscher and Ensemble intercontemporain, staged at the enormous Park Avenue Armory here -- the size of an airplane hangar. (You can hear the piece with Pintscher and the group on YouTube, in very good audio/video.)
The interesting part: They're doing it twice each night, and the audience will change seats for the second performance, for a "new sonic perspective." I have high expectations.
http://armoryonpark.org/programs_events/detail/repons (http://armoryonpark.org/programs_events/detail/repons)
--Bruce
Très cool, indeed.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 30, 2017, 06:12:38 AM
I could endorse that entirely, with the personal alteration of removal of the adverb infinitely (which is not at all to say that your own finding should be at all otherwise than infinite) 8)
Good day,
Karl!
Yep, with
Boulez to infinity and beyond! ;D You see, I was first exposed to his music in 1975 (excerpts of
Le Marteau... on, of all places, the inflight entertainment system of an Air France flight from Paris to Caracas) and was blown away...my admiration has not stopped to grow since then. So yes, so far its allure is "infinite" to me. ;)
Re
Répons (which I am listening to as I write): the entrance of the soloists (boosted by the electronics) after the introduction is simply mesmerzeing (these "arpeggiated arpeggios"). And in section 6, the busy filigress of the ensemble and soloists (with such a shimmering sound) are unexpectedly underpinned by isolated, few and far between, notes of the tuba. The effect is nothing short of miraculous IMHO. :)
Cross-posted from the WAYLTN thread:
Quote from: ritter on October 09, 2017, 07:12:00 AM
Listened to the world première recording of Pierre Boulez's Fragment d'une ébauche for piano, from this CD that landed today:
(http://www.stradivarius.it/copertine/8011570370884.jpg)
It turns out this 30" miniature was a present by Boulez to a colleague at the Collège de France, the chemist Jean-Marie Lehn, on the occasion of his being awarded the Nobel Prize in 1987 [Lehn, not Boulez ;)]. It was first performed in public in 2013, with the composer and the dedicatee in attendance, but Boulez decided not to include it in his "official" catalogue of works. His heirs have permitted its posthumous release on CD. It's supposed to be sketch for a work for piano and ensemble that never materialized :(.
Not life-changing, but this very busy piece is interesting and enjoyable, with the persistent (and unusual) use of syncopated rhythms being its most salient feature. Of course, it's all over in a sigh. Dimitri Vassilakis is an expert on Boulez, and his performance seems to be what the piece needs (there's nothing to compare it to, of course).
Proceeded then to listen to Dérive 1 which opens the CD, and found Pascal Gallois's performance--leading the hitherto unknown to me Prague Modern ensemble--very convincing, as it appears to me like a suaver approach to this short work (which I must confess was never among my favourites by its composer).
Re; the Schoenberg/Boulez CD: From the samples, it is a sparklingly clear recording. I must get this.
Quote from: millionrainbows on October 09, 2017, 09:33:59 AM
Re; the Schoenberg/Boulez CD: From the samples, it is a sparklingly clear recording. I must get this.
Oh yes. Contrary to what we were led to expect, the sound is very good, pemitting an unusual level of detail in
Dérive 1 (and that's perhaps what made me like the piece better ths time around). Still have to listen to
Verklärte Nacht and the
PB Trosième sonate, though.
Quote from: ritter on October 09, 2017, 07:18:01 AM
Cross-posted from the WAYLTN thread:
Very interesting! Probably worth a listen.....I do like these little musical gifts that Boulez wrote (Solti's 80th birthday fanfare being another one I think is lovely to listen to)
Boulez: Répons, Park Avenue Armory, NY, Oct. 7, 2017
The improbably situated Armory on Park Avenue at 66th Street in NY with its immense Drill Hall has of late been the home for cultural events that sound exceptional in the planning but have often fallen short in the execution.
To take a few examples: a performance of Bernd Alois Zimmermann's opera "Die Soldaten" in 2008, where audience members were seated right and left of the stage on risers that moved forward and back during the performance, was marred by impossible sight lines unless one's seat was close to the stage. I myself couldn't see a thing. The Royal Shakespeare Company, visiting for five often disappointingly directed performances in summer 2011, constructed a special stage of its own within the Armory but both elevators and air conditioning malfunctioned often, and acoustics from the upper rows made it nearly impossible to hear the actors.
In 2014 Kenneth Branagh brought an expensive Macbeth to the stage; audience members were separated into "clans" and were made to do "clan shouts" before being escorted to high benches without backs for two intermissionless hours for those not willing for fork over $200 for the best seats. And then in 2012 came the NY premiere of Stockhausen's Gruppen performed by the NY Philharmonic, coupled with Boulez's Rituel, Ives's Unanswered Question, and (improbably) the Act One Finale of Mozart's Don Giovanni, which was a cacophony of ragged ensemble with oddly costumed individuals roaming the vast Drill Hall and trying unsuccessfully to find a downbeat. Louis Andriessen's "De Materie" last year was more successfully staged, but the main interest was in watching the herd of 100 live sheep rather than anything musical.
And so it was with some apprehension that I entered the Hall for last weekend's performance of Boulez's Répons. Actually two performances back to back, for conductor Matthias Pintscher's inspired conceit was to play the 45-minute piece twice and reseat the audience after intermission. And this makes sense when you realize that Répons is conceived spatially: in this iteration, a large chamber orchestra, here the Ensemble InterContemporain, is surrounded on all four sides by the audience. Then six soloists playing pitched percussion (2 pianos, harp, cimbalon, etc.) are situated behind the audience and spaced around the perimeter of the hall. There's also a synthesizer that manipulates the soloists' sounds and sends them back into the hall via about a dozen loudspeakers situated above the performers and audience.
With this arrangement, for once the nonsensically huge and reverberant Drill Hall made perfect auditory and visual sense. I was seated behind the conductor for performance 1, and reseated behind the brass for performance 2. This meant I was also closer to different soloists for each performance, and so the music sounded both the same and different. (For example, in the central section the loud tuba pedal notes, barely audible in performance 1, predominated in performance 2.) Those seated at the sides of the orchestral ensemble probably had a different auditory experience still.
Not only under Pintscher's direction was the performance fluid and (as my friend Pradyut Shah put it) more romantic than under Boulez himself in his recording, but the lighting plot was similarly inspired. As one enters the hall the whole area is shrouded in fog; then when the chamber orchestra starts, a couple of dozen spotlights stream vertically from the ceiling with the soloists in darkness. About 5-6 minutes in, perhaps the most celebrated moment in the piece occurs when the six soloists enter, and here the lighting plot expanded to multiple diagonals to illuminate these performers. Stunning, and you could see audience members smiling in delight. Last, when the orchestra falls silent at the coda and only the soloists play, all overhead lights fade to dark with only enough illumination for the soloists to read, and the dozen loudspeakers suspended from the ceiling are now outlined.
A totally successful experience, in other words, with comfortable chairs and since everyone was seated at orchestra level, no need to climb the many steep stairs to the Drill Hall's upper balcony. Pintscher made a more compelling case for the work than even Boulez did when I heard him conduct it in Carnegie Hall in 2003. Even the program booklet at the Armory, 16" high by 11" across and printed white on black, showed unusual care in graphic design. A similar performance arrangement could be tried profitably with Stockhausen's Gruppen, or with the one major work by Boulez that hasn't been performed in NY for decades, the wonderful Pli selon Pli.
Another review, showing a bit of the lighting plot:
http://www.vulture.com/2017/10/music-review-a-double-dose-of-pierre-boulezs-rpons.html
Awesome, Sforzando! I would very much have loved to have seen that concert. I wonder if something by Henry Brant might work well there, too? He was, as you probably already know, quite interested in spatial music.
Thanks so much for that excellent account of what clearly was a memorable concert, (poco) Sforzando! I'm glad you enjoyed it. And thanks as well for the link you provided.
Funny you point out the tuba's pedal notes in in section 6. When I last listened (as reported here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg1071829.html#msg1071829)) to Répons on CD (which obviously is nothing close to experiencing the piece live) I was struck by the wonderful effect those notes provide, as they manage (few and far between as they are) to knit this otherwise very busy section (full of filigrees by both ensemble and soloists) together.
Regards,
Very good comments above from (poco) Sforzando on what was, yes, a memorable evening. (I went on the first night.) In a perfect world, there would be a DVD of this performance, especially given the dramatic lighting effects, but alas, that's just wishful thinking.
This link has been posted before, but is worth posting again. You can hear (and watch) Pintscher and the EIC do the piece earlier this year on YouTube, from the Philharmonie de Paris. No, not in surround sound, but still, this gives you an excellent idea of the chemistry between the conductor and the ensemble. It was a joy to hear it done by people who obviously know the piece so well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQE5TYnD58k
--Bruce
Here's my review of the Boulez on MusicalAmerica.com -- free, without the paywall, through 2pm on Sunday.
http://www.musicalamerica.com/news/newsstory.cfm?archived=0&storyID=39119&categoryID=4
--Bruce
There is a book of Boulez interviews that came out in the sping. There is a good review on resmusica. I have not read it.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31295dm1f4L._SX336_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
I have no idea if it is going to be translated.
Quote from: Spineur on October 14, 2017, 08:59:52 AM
There is a book of Boulez interviews that came out in the sping. There is a good review on resmusica. I have not read it.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31295dm1f4L._SX336_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
I have no idea if it is going to be translated.
I ordered it from the publishers in March (and their service was excellent--but the wider distribution appears haphazard, and e.g. amazon.fr always says "
pas de stock"). It's a collection of "occasional" interviews held over 30 years (one f them I remember reading in the Spanish music magazine Scherzo), and is probably best not read in one go. I've only leafed through it, but it does seem to provide a good and approachable picture of
Boulez's views in the later part of his life.
This has also just appeared:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41r-TNAKiaL.jpg)
This line from the publisher's blurb leads me to think that it's much tougher nut to crack (sorry, I wouldn't dare translate it, as I really do not understand half of it ;D): "
De l'écriture à l'écoute, de l'axiomatique à la prolifération, de l'exercice de la structure à la pratique de la coupure, du degré zéro de l'écriture à l'ambiguïté des espaces lisses et des espaces striés". ??? And names such as
Barthes,
Deleuze,
Foucault, etc. are also mentioned... ::)
Quote from: Brewski on October 14, 2017, 08:47:58 AM
Here's my review of the Boulez on MusicalAmerica.com -- free, without the paywall, through 2pm on Sunday.
http://www.musicalamerica.com/news/newsstory.cfm?archived=0&storyID=39119&categoryID=4
--Bruce
Great review,
Brewski! Many thanks :)
Quote from: Spineur on October 14, 2017, 08:59:52 AM
There is a book of Boulez interviews that came out in the sping. There is a good review on resmusica. I have not read it.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31295dm1f4L._SX336_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
I have no idea if it is going to be translated.
My friend David Gable is working on a translation of some Boulez interviews. It may be this one. Haven't heard in some time about his progress, either with the translation or the publication.
Quote from: Brewski on October 14, 2017, 08:47:58 AM
Here's my review of the Boulez on MusicalAmerica.com -- free, without the paywall, through 2pm on Sunday.
http://www.musicalamerica.com/news/newsstory.cfm?archived=0&storyID=39119&categoryID=4
--Bruce
Excellent review, Bruce...although it makes me realize my CD of
Repóns is a poor substitute for a live performance :(
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 14, 2017, 04:08:57 PM
Excellent review, Bruce...although it makes me realize my CD of Repóns is a poor substitute for a live performance :(
Sarge
But, you probably realized that earlier :)
Quote from: jessop on October 09, 2017, 02:58:03 PM
Very interesting! Probably worth a listen.....I do like these little musical gifts that Boulez wrote (Solti's 80th birthday fanfare being another one I think is lovely to listen to)
https://www.youtube.com/v/9SwwcAkjSbk
Quote from: Peter Power Pop on October 14, 2017, 05:01:52 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/9SwwcAkjSbk
Yes, a fun piece. I suppose it's a reworking of the fanfare
Initiale, first performed in Houston in 1986 and subsequently published by Universal Edition.
Initiale remains unrecorded, but I did get the chance to hear it live once here in Madrid, in a Boulez-a-thon that the BBVA Foundation organized some years ago.
For those interested (beyond YouTube) in the
Solti hommage, it's available in this very difficult to find CD (which has some off-the-beaten-track repertoire--for
Boulez, that is--, such as him conducting
Strauss's
Till Eulenspiegel, the
Glagolitic Mass and the
Bach/
Schoenberg St.Anne Prelude and Fugue...).
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_1080/MI0001/107/MI0001107772.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 14, 2017, 04:08:57 PM
Excellent review, Bruce...although it makes me realize my CD of Repóns is a poor substitute for a live performance :(
Sarge
Thank you, Sarge. It was a joy to write. (But the recordings are pretty good as "Plan B." :) )
--Bruce
Quote from: ritter on October 15, 2017, 06:49:37 AM
Yes, a fun piece. I suppose it's a reworking of the fanfare Initiale, first performed in Houston in 1986 and subsequently published by Universal Edition. Initiale remains unrecorded, but I did get the chance to hear it live once here in Madrid, in a Boulez-a-thon that the BBVA Foundation organized some years ago.
For those interested (beyond YouTube) in the Solti hommage, it's available in this very difficult to find CD (which has some off-the-beaten-track repertoire--for Boulez, that is--, such as him conducting Strauss's Till Eulenspiegel, the Glagolitic Mass and the Bach/Schoenberg St.Anne Prelude and Fugue...).
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_1080/MI0001/107/MI0001107772.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Didn't know about this CD...... would be interested in tracking it down :)
again, whole post accidentlly deleted...
ugh
ench F
OK, so, I'm in a French F rench Flute Frenzy... and had to get to the Boulez after Jolivet and Dutilleux. Whilst the othersare still quite ... errr... "Musical", when I reacquainted myself with the Eratorecording, I was shocked that I found much of the piece absolutely "full of it" and even quite clangorous towards the end.I don't know if the flautist wasn't absolutely perfect, but it seemed like I heard clashing.
Either way, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS PARTICULAR PIECE? I again was shocked at how contrived I found some of it, how tediously complex and cerebral. And I thought it could have been a lot shorter, even though it's just 11 mins.
I have a feeling you all will agree with me on this one: is therereally any musical redeeming value in this particular piece, when compared with all other flute sonatas? I can imagine the kind of review the authors of the Penguin Guide might have penned concerning this piece...
You think it's a masterpiece??
I mean, I like sooome of the flutter tonguing, but there seems to be an over reliance on... some kind of technique... a few interesting moments surrounded by what sounds like random clashings (and I don't mean "random" lol)
Boulez's Sonatine for flute and piano, you mean?
It's a pretty knotty piece, not nearly as elegant as his later music, and like the First Sonata for piano, it tends towards those long toccata sections. So, not a favorite of mine among the composer's output, but I don't think of it poorly. The work takes an interesting approach to form and is consistently compelling.
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 03, 2017, 06:15:08 PM
Boulez's Sonatine for flute and piano, you mean?
It's a pretty knotty piece, not nearly as elegant as his later music, and like the First Sonata for piano, it tends towards those long toccata sections. So, not a favorite of mine among the composer's output, but I don't think of it poorly. The work takes an interesting approach to form and is consistently compelling.
What performance do you have, or have you heard many? I keep wondering how this Erato performance stacks up.
I mean, ok, "form wise" I noticed a 'streaming' quality of various "guises" and gestures, a 'never repeating' thing even with all the fluttering on single tones. And yes, toccata like "business" that sounded a bit academic, though I guess, Boulez the "angry young man flaying the lion alive."
I'll see if I can't find a different performance
Quote from: snyprrr on November 03, 2017, 06:22:27 PM
What performance do you have, or have you heard many? I keep wondering how this Erato performance stacks up.
I mean, ok, "form wise" I noticed a 'streaming' quality of various "guises" and gestures, a 'never repeating' thing even with all the fluttering on single tones. And yes, toccata like "business" that sounded a bit academic, though I guess, Boulez the "angry young man flaying the lion alive."
I'll see if I can't find a different performance
Boulez said that the form was inspired by Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony in E. So the point is not simply to have a variety of different moods and textures within a single movement (though both pieces certainly do) but to connect them all together through shared material.
So by Erato, you mean the Aimard/Cherrier performance? It seems quite accurate to me, but I don't have a score to check, just the outline in Jameux's book on Boulez.
I like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/v/2-Ro3KivRaw
Quote from: snyprrr on November 03, 2017, 06:22:27 PM
What performance do you have, or have you heard many? I keep wondering how this Erato performance stacks up.
I mean, ok, "form wise" I noticed a 'streaming' quality of various "guises" and gestures, a 'never repeating' thing even with all the fluttering on single tones. And yes, toccata like "business" that sounded a bit academic, though I guess, Boulez the "angry young man flaying the lion alive."
I'll see if I can't find a different performance
actually, the Kalish version, a little longer, and more 'in sync' and poetic, revealed the piece much better than the Cherrier/Aimard, which, in the toccata section, do sound like they're just banging it out, no where near the nuance of the Kalish.
Now listening to a 14.5 min. that isn't any much more nuanced for being so slow. Now a modern live Cherrier...which gets pretty frenzied playing from the pianist in the toccata, still not as subtle as the Kalish...
ok, maybe I like it a little better now, lol :D
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 03, 2017, 06:37:39 PM
Boulez said that the form was inspired by Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony in E. So the point is not simply to have a variety of different moods and textures within a single movement (though both pieces certainly do) but to connect them all together through shared material.
So by Erato, you mean the Aimard/Cherrier performance? It seems quite accurate to me, but I don't have a score to check, just the outline in Jameux's book on Boulez.
I like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/v/2-Ro3KivRaw
it's funny, though,...watching them at the end makes the piece seem very "Classical"... the big buildup, the crashing chords, the end, bravo,... haha!!
but seriously, there is another live performance, and the audience reaction shots are priceless!! :laugh:
Quote from: snyprrr on November 03, 2017, 06:46:41 PM
but seriously, there is another live performance, and the audience reaction shots are priceless!! :laugh:
You mean this?
https://www.youtube.com/v/IC6FEXFaZMM
Eek, that's painful. Something sounds horribly out of tune.
There's also the classic recording of the Sonatine with Severino Gazzelloni and David Tudor (available in the Domaine Musical box):
(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4811510.jpg)
Gazzelloni also recorded the piece with Frederic Rzewski (a recording I still do not know). It's avaliable on a single CD (printed on demand by ArkivMusic) or in the Sony "Masterworks of the 20th Century" box (which appears to me like a kind of hotchpotch of 20th century stuff, but does include some interesting things):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61KpT102XHL._SS500.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze2/large/1753927.jpg)
I actually quite enjoy the Sonatine. As has already been pointed out, it is Boulez at his most "angry young man" (and very much in line with the Première sonate in that respect) but still, the young composer keeps a tight rein (through formal restraint) on his bursts of violence.
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 03, 2017, 06:55:45 PM
You mean this?
https://www.youtube.com/v/IC6FEXFaZMM
Eek, that's painful. Something sounds horribly out of tune.
yea, lol, the audience hears something too...
Quote from: ritter on November 04, 2017, 02:54:09 AM
There's also the classic recording of the Sonatine with Severino Gazzelloni and David Tudor (available in the Domaine Musical box):
(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4811510.jpg)
Gazzelloni also recorded the pece with Frederic Rzewski (a recording I still do not know). It's vaaliable on a single CD (pronted on demand by ArkivMusic) or in the Sony "Masterworks of the 20th Century" box (which appears to me like a kind of hotchpotch of 20th century stuff, but does inclde some interessing things):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61KpT102XHL._SS500.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze2/large/1753927.jpg)
I actually quite enjoy the Sonatine. As has already been pointed out, it is Boulez at his most "angry young man" (and very much in line with the Première sonate in that respect) but still, the young composer keeps a tight rein on his bursts of violence through formal restraint.
I also found a video of Felix Renggli(?) live, and this one I liked a little better than the live Cherrier. Perhaps a male flautist and a female pianist is the way to go here?? I know I know, but...
I still think the ending of Cherrier/Aimard sounded a bit bangy
might as well listen to Aimard's PS No.1
Philippe Manoury victime du vol de ses partitions . . . of his "re writing" of Boulez's Livre pour Quatuor. The article makes it sound really serious, like he didn't have copies.
https://www.francemusique.fr/actualite-musicale/philippe-manoury-victime-du-vol-des-partitions-de-sa-nouvelle-oeuvre-38395
Quote from: Mandryka on November 19, 2017, 05:14:14 AM
Philippe Manoury victime du vol de ses partitions . . . of his "re writing" of Boulez's Livre pour Quatuor. The article makes it sound really serious, like he didn't have copies.
https://www.francemusique.fr/actualite-musicale/philippe-manoury-victime-du-vol-des-partitions-de-sa-nouvelle-oeuvre-38395
Well, you should never travel with anything that you cannot afford to lose... ::)
Let's hope for the best. If the manuscripts do not turn up, and even if he cannot meet the April deadline, I suppose Mr.
Manoury can reconstruct his work (painstaking as that may be).
On Boulez:
"He created around himself a mythology of radical avant-gardism without ever really putting it into practice in his own work, at least after his early years. His prescriptive view of what was acceptable in new music, and what wasn't, was in my opinion a dead hand on French musical culture for many years. His dismissal of so many things from free improvisation to Xenakis wasn't just a matter of personal opinion but a statement with systematically accrued political clout behind it. This isn't to detract from the many impressive and memorable things he did as a composer and conductor, even if I don't feel personally very involved in most of his compositional work when I hear it. Let's celebrate his passing and that of his generation by looking forward not backward."
(Richard Barrett, 6 January 2016)
Quote from: San Antonio on December 06, 2017, 07:31:03 AM
On Boulez:
"He created around himself a mythology of radical avant-gardism without ever really putting it into practice in his own work, at least after his early years. "
(Richard Barrett, 6 January 2016)
I wonder if people feel this is true, I have certainly heard it before. I don't feel able to judge whether favourite works of mine, like Repons or Explosante-fixe, are avant garde or not, how can you tell?
Quote from: Mandryka on December 06, 2017, 09:34:49 AM
I wonder if people feel this is true, I have certainly heard it before. I don't feel able to judge whether favourite works of mine, like Repons or Explosante-fixe, are avant garde or not, how can you tell?
Since neither of those are early works, based on his comment I would think that Barrett would not consider them avant-garde.
Quote from: San Antonio on December 06, 2017, 09:41:11 AM
Since neither of those are early works, based on his comment I would think that Barrett would not consider them avant-garde.
Sure, but is Barrett right? How do you tell whether something's avant garde or not?
Quote from: Mandryka on December 06, 2017, 09:43:24 AM
Sure, but is Barrett right? How do you tell whether something's avant garde or not?
I'd say Mr.
Barrett's comment starts from a false premise. AFAIK,
Pierre Boulez was never an advocate of avant-gardism for avant-gardism's sake.
When he was at his most vociferous (the early to mid-50s), what he was promoting was a new musical language, serialism, which was (still) revolutionary at the time, and happened to be the cutting edge of the avant-garde. His own music of those years
was radically avant-garde in the application of that language; it would appear that Mr. Barrett has never heard (the subsequently withdrawn)
Polyphonie X, or
Structures for two pianos.
Le Marteau sans maître was a turning point, as in this work Boulez adopted a freer approach to his compositions, but never abandoning his adherence to the compositional principles derived from (mainly) webernian serialism. This trend continued throughout Boulez's career, I'd say, to works such as the aforementioned
Répons and the late
Dérive II.
If you follow Boulez's later statements, what he was particularly suspicious of was of any tendencies to revert to pre-serialist modes of expression (any neo-romanticism, minimalism, etc.). He was, usually, rather silent about younger composers, and actually on occasions rather dismissive of names such as
Lachenmann and even
Ferneyhough (I think, in the latter case, there was an element of personal antipathy involved). And yet, he championed many of the composers that were becoming avant-garde, when his own music had stopped to be cutting edge. Yes, Boulez's late music was no longer avant-garde, but I think it never sought to be, but rather showed a coherent evolution from the aesthetics he was championing when his music
was avant-garde (along with
Stockhausen's,
Nono's and so on).
Quote from: ritter on December 07, 2017, 07:04:59 AM
I'd say Mr. Barrett's comment starts from a false premise. AFAIK, Pierre Boulez was never an advocate of avant-gardism for avant-gardism's sake.
When he was at his most vociferous (the early to mid-50s), what he was promoting was a new musical language, serialism, which was (still) revolutionary at the time, and happened to be the cutting edge of the avant-garde. His own music of those years was radically avant-garde in the application of that language; it would appear that Mr. Barrett has never heard (the subsequently withdrawn) Polyphonie X, or Structures for two pianos. Le Marteau sans maître was a turning point, as in this work Boulez adopted a freer approach to his compositions, but never abandoning his adherence to the compositional principles derived from (mainly) webernian serialism. This trend continued throughout Boulez's career, I'd say, to works such as the aforementioned Répons and the late Dérive II.
If you follow Boulez's later statements, what he was particularly suspicious of was of any tendencies to revert to pre-serialist modes of expression (any neo-romanticism, minimalism, etc.). He was, usually, rather silent about younger composers, and actually on occasions rather dismissive of names such as Lachenmann and even Ferneyhough (I think, in the latter case, there was an element of personal antipathy involved). And yet, he championed many of the composers that were becoming avant-garde, when his own music had stopped to be cutting edge. Yes, Boulez's late music was no longer avant-garde, but I think it never sought to be, but rather showed a coherent evolution from the aesthetics he was championing when his music was avant-garde (along with Stockhausen's, Nono's and so on).
You make some good points, and Richard Barrett has his own axe to grind (but I don't think Barrett's comment was negative towards Boulez). Personally, I am not concerned whether a composer's work is cutting edge, innovative or avant-garde. Although, my impression is that Boulez set out those qualities as a measure as to how important was a composer's work, or if the work "changed the course of music history".
Looks interesting. A world premiere of an early work by Boulez! Probably more interesting as a rare curiosity though.
http://www.ralphvanraat.nl/?p=1379
Quote from: jessop on January 29, 2018, 01:00:58 PM
Looks interesting. A world premiere of an early work by Boulez! Probably more interesting as a rare curiosity though.
http://www.ralphvanraat.nl/?p=1379
That certainly does look interesting. It must have been around that time when the young
Boulez transitioned from
Honegger-infused "modernity" to full-fledged "avant-gardism". Perhaps this pre-
Notations piece will shed some light on the composer's early development.
Some of my thoughts on Pierre Boulez
I've tried sketching this post a few times over the course of this week but for some reason I haven't been able to express my thoughts properly. How to express my admiration for this wonderful artist? Where to begin? My journey trough the life work of Pierre Boulez has simultaneously been one of artistic growth; I feel like becoming familiar with his aesthetic, his thoughts and his music making has changed me not only as a musician - listener, pianist, enthusiast - but also as a person a lot. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that he has been one of the biggest influences on my artistic philosophy. So I need to write this piece with the appropriate care and thoughtfulness, and hopefully I'll succeed at least to some extent.
I don't really recall my first experience of Boulez. Upon trying really hard to remember, I think I managed to conjure up some memories of a teenage version of me bumping into the classic Pollini recording of the 2nd piano sonata and being thoroughly confused, baffled and probably even infuriated by what I heard. To me it wasn't music, and thus not worthy of my attention. It took me a few years before I was familiar enough with some of the basic characteristics of modernism that I could start finding my way into his world.
Meanwhile, Boulez-the-conductor kept popping up increasingly frequently as I started delving deeper into the realm of 20th century music and beyond. I've described elsewhere how hearing Schoenberg's sole Piano Concerto (Op. 42) was a massive bombshell that shook my entire musical thinking - and by chance (or maybe it played an instrumental role in the big impression, who knows...) Boulez was the conductor in the recording that I first heard. That's when I really thought to myself: who is this man? And slowly, but with ever-growing hunger, I started to go through his recordings as a conductor. I cannot over-emphasize what an effect that project had one me. I discovered so much music with which I had had very little or no contact before: Mahler, Bartók, Stravinsky, Berg, Schoenberg, Webern, Messiaen, Ligeti... The list goes on and on. There were also the likes of Carter, Berio, Varèse, Birtwistle and many more. The burning fire this man had for modernist and contemporary music was so immense that I could not help but fall in love with all of it. He was often criticized for not playing enough earlier music, but that was exactly what drew me closer to him. There were so many people concentrating on the music of the old masters - whom I love dearly! - that seeing someone with so much love for later music was very refreshing.
To this day he remains my favourite conductor. One of my biggest regrets is never witnessing his work live, but I'm too young for that anyway; and besides, he left an absolutely massive recorded legacy - a lot of which I still haven't heard - so I'm not really in a position to complain. I don't always love his interpretations, but I do find them very interesting most of the time and always thought-provoking. Absolute clarity, subtlety and restraint (in the most positive meaning of the word) - these qualities of Boulez makes him feel like a glass of cold water among countless hand-temperature ones. What a legacy!
But what about his music? That took me much, much longer to grasp. His music is very complex, there's no denying that. I had to listen to a lot of modern music (especially that which was close to him as a conductor) in order to decipher his language. It was a lot of work, but I'm endlessly grateful that I did it because his music is now very close to my heart and it keeps reveling more secrets even after years of familiarity.
The first piece that truly grabbed me was the 12 notations for piano from his younger years. The second piece of the set, with those massive glissandi and ticking rhythmic passages, made a huge impact. The rest of the set intrigued me as well, and I started to wonder: maybe it's time to attempt this composer again, after all these years, and possibly without trying the second sonata just yet since it intimidated me so much on my first attempt? I started approaching his body of works slowly. The next piece that made a strong impression was the fabulous Sonatine for piano and flute. The admittedly harsh language felt nevertheless communicative - there was something about the serial idiom that made sense now, the pieces of the metaphorical puzzle started to fall into place. I'd say these two early pieces had a very important part to play in my journey into Boulez's work.
After that I jumped to the "deep end" in some ways, since I next tackled his longest score, the immense Pli selon pli for soprano and orchestra. I think by now it was clear that his language had become more ingrained in my ears, since the work really didn't feel that difficult. It is a very complex score, sure, and definitely a huge challenge for the performers, but overall the expression it channeled was one of poise and sensuality. I loved the soaring soprano lines, and the long orchestral passages that seemed to open up pathways to countless directions that I could follow in whichever order I wanted. The composer and conductor Matthias Pintscher once said of the work that Boulez in this work takes us by the hand and leads us to a wonderful garden where we can wander around freely and endlessly discover new things. I quite like that. One of my big dreams is to hear Barbara Hannigan's rendition of this piece; she toured it with Boulez in 2011 (if my memory serves me) and she has an exceptional skill in presenting complex contemporary scores. I wonder if there's a recording of their interpretation in some shady archive somewhere...
The two iterations of Anthèmes for violin solo was also an important discovery. I heard the second one first, and the first one some time after. Boulez expands the piece to almost twice the original length, and adds an electronic element that amplifies, mutates and throws some of the violin's passages back at the violinist. The end result is simply stunning in its sonic power, and it's a work that I would love to hear live one day. The first version, for solo violin, is also a fascinating piece and an important addition to the solo violin repertoire. Both pieces give me an impression of subtle finesse; there's something almost noble about the way Boulez twists and turns the violin line in the most wonderful ways. It's a well-known fact that he was preparing a third version of the work which would have been a full-fledged violin concerto for none other than Anne-Sophie Mutter, but this plan never came to fruition. What a terrible shame!
I cannot not mention my deep love for the fun little Messagesquisse which Boulez wrote for Rostropovich. It's scored for a solo cellist with six additional cellists to spice things up a little. I think Rostropovich once commented that it's a genius piece, but very challenging to play. Nevertheless, there are many worthy recordings available today, and the piece seems to pose little challenge to dedicated cellists today. When performed well it can be a great and thrilling experience, and I always recommend it to anyone wanting to discover Boulez's work as a composer. An easy start, so to say.
My personal favourite among Boulez's works is the combo of Incises and Sur incises, both of which I've discovered only fairly recently. This is the essential Boulez for me. The sonic imagination he was able to conjure up in these works is simply astonishing. Most people probably know Sur incises better, but I think there's a case to be made for the earlier, solo piano version too. Tamara Stefanovich once called it a "21st century neurotic toccata" and I simply love that description; it's an energetic tour-de-force for the pianist, full of virtuosity (which Boulez loved to include in his piano works!) and cascades of notes. That being said, the much longer later version adds more pianos, harps and a wonderful selection of percussion instruments, and the effect this instrumentation has on the music is brilliant. The music feels urban to me - and not in the contemporary-music-describes-the-modern-chaotic-life kind of way (a silly cliché often used to describe contemporary scores) but in a refined, intelligent and beautiful way. This is music of an old, cosmopolitan man. And I love it so much.
There so much music I'd like to ramble on and on about, but this post is becoming terribly long so I'll try not to include all of my favourites. But how could one not mention the classic Le marteau sans maître, or Répons, or Rituel? Even the piano sonatas, music that freaked me out so much as a teenager, have grown on me years later. Surprisingly, I listened to the orchestral versions of the Notations only last year, and I loved them very much. Hearing those early favourites in a completely new context made me feel almost nostalgic for a time that wasn't even that long ago. Not merely arrangements, they are brilliant expansions of his youthful, humorous pieces. What a shame that he only managed to do this treatment to five of them, but let's be grateful for what we have. In an interview he was once asked if he agrees that the orchestral rethinking could be seen as a kind of Sur notations, to which he happily agreed, with a characteristic grin.
To me, Boulez is one of the most important composers and conductors of the 20th and 21st centuries - and certainly one of my personal favourites. His music is fearlessly modern, but it's never just for the sake of confusing the audience. Especially in his later years he became quite a mellow man, actually. He held some very strong opinions, some of which I agree with and some not, but the fact remains that he was a great creator of music, and in addition, he did a huge service as a conductor to a lot of composers he felt strongly for. Like Simon Rattle once said, he changed the way we hear the music of some composers - and I wholeheartedly agree!
A big thank you for anyone who read all of this. I really do not intend my posts to be this long but sometimes there are just so many thoughts to jot down.
^^^^^
Although not a great fan of Boulez the composer I really enjoyed reading your post ;)
This is one of the aspects I like about this forum. A person can convey his appreciation of the adventurous composers of the 20th century. You have provided me with a great deal of food for thought.
In another forum one of the knuckleheads who thinks classical music died in 1911 started a thread asking if composers who composed modern music like Webern, Xenakis, Boulez, i. e. were actually musical ???
Even though some of us were critical of his hypothesis, what was sad was the number of members who supported his observations.
Many years ago when I was much younger I saw Boulez conducting The Right of Spring with the Cleveland Symphony when he was just starting out as a conductor. It was funny that he was conducting from one of these small study scores.
@Ainsi la nuit: great post and very relatable; my experience with him is/was very similar to yours. Cheers! :)
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on April 20, 2018, 03:05:11 PM
Some of my thoughts on Pierre Boulez
...
A big thank you for anyone who read all of this. I really do not intend my posts to be this long but sometimes there are just so many thoughts to jot down.
Thanks for sharing!
My own personal experience of Boulez as composer grew through his orchestral Notations, particularly the shimmering stillness of No. 7.
Beautiful post, Ainsi la nuit! A pleasure to read...
Just as in your case, for me Boulez "has been one of the biggest influences on my artistic philosophy". His work has accompanied me for more than 40 years now. First as a conductor (my dad gave me his recording of Parsifal as a present, yielding to my teenage Wagnerian obsession), and then as a composer (my first exposure to his music having been excerpts of Le marteau on—of all places—the entertainment system on an Air France flight from Paris to Caracas in 1977). I was blown away in both cases, and since then I'm grateful to him not only for his intensely beautiful music and his outstanding recordings, but also for having opened so many doors (not only musical) to new territories for me.
I did have the chance to see him live several times, from the Ring in Bayreuth in 1979 to Mahler's Sixth in Berlin in 2008), and saw him conduct his own music on more than one occasion (Livre pour cordes, Le marteau, Répons, Le soleil des eaux, Notations I-IV....), and each time was a memorable one.
Thanks again for a great post, and best regards,
I found this today. Posted on youtube a couple of months ago. I haven't listened to it yet, but I might be interesting to hear an alternative to the Pintscher and Boulez performances.
https://www.youtube.com/v/nYpjQsN4w1E
The design of the concert hall is indeed very unfortunate.
There is really no living figure, with such fire and intellect, willing to destroy and rebuild music again.
I feel we are in a stagnation period despite all the technological advances and multitude of styles.
Quote from: Uhor on June 18, 2018, 05:34:46 PM
There is really no living figure, with such fire and intellect, willing to destroy and rebuild music again.
I feel we are in a stagnation period despite all the technological advances and multitude of styles.
No, actually, Boulez wasn't one willing to destroy and rebuild. He took inspiration from the past and helped to build and nurture the future from there. If we are in a stagnation period, it seems bizarre that Boulez supported and conducted the works of composers who are prominent today like Olga Neuwirth, Isabel Mundry, or still relatively 'upcoming' like Helen Grime and Ondrej Adamek. Not to mention IRCAM and EIC.....
Intellect, yes but almost disdainful of intellect.
Fire, maybe, but not for the majority of his career beyond an angsty youngster.
I feel we'd be happy if another self-assured angsty youngster perfect ears came up and shook things a little again.
Notations is a magnificent riot of color and rhythm. My hope is that in the near future it becomes standard repertoire.
Quote from: Mahlerian on July 15, 2018, 07:39:07 AM
Notations is a magnificent riot of color and rhythm. My hope is that in the near future it becomes standard repertoire.
Fully agreed! It's a stunning work, and very accessible as well. I bet a lot of people would enjoy it, if orchestras were to perform it regularly.
I find it unacceptable when people claim that Boulez didn't care about the listeners or the reception of his music. He did - very much actually. I recently read an interview in which he stated his admiration for interpreters like Pollini, who play his music with almost romantic passion and intense expression.
On Tuesday, 4 September, the Ensemble Intercontemporain and Matthias Pintscher will play Berg, Webern, and Boulez 'Le Marteau sans maître.' Concert will be broadcast live.
http://www.ensembleinter.com/fr/concert-1113-Marteau-sans-maitre.html
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on August 30, 2018, 02:53:52 PM
On Tuesday, 4 September, the Ensemble Intercontemporain and Matthias Pintscher will play Berg, Webern, and Boulez 'Le Marteau sans maître.' Concert will be broadcast live.
http://www.ensembleinter.com/fr/concert-1113-Marteau-sans-maitre.html
--Bruce
Thanks for the heads-up,
Bruce. I didn't know the concert will be broadcast.
This concert is actually part of the first "Biennale Pierre Boulez", a joint initiative of the Philharmonie de Paris and
Daniel Barenboim. 10 concerts are scheduled from September 3 through 8, with music by
Boulez or composers he admired (
Debussy,
Stravinsky...), "exotic" influences (the imperial Gagaku), young and rising composers, and—of particular interest—the world premiere of an early work for piano,
Prélude, Toccata et Scherzo, released from Boulez's manuscripts held by the Paul Sacher Foundarion. Our sorely missed fellow GMGer
Jessop alerted us about this some months ago.
Full information here (https://philharmoniedeparis.fr/fr/programmation/les-week-ends-thematiques/premiere-biennale-pierre-boulez?utm_source=nl_180727SEPTEMBRE%202018&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=180727SEPTEMBRE%202018&utm_content=header_boulez).
(https://philharmoniedeparis.fr/sites/default/files/styles/minisite_primary_image/public/180711_biennale-boulez.jpg?itok=tCACBZnS)
And thanks for that additional info! (I wonder if they are planning to broadcast the others?)
In any case, missed Jessop's comment first time around, so appreciate your reviving it.
--Bruce
A new recording of Le marteau sans maître will be released in a couple of days:
[asin]B07HBHZ5R9[/asin]
Comments by the performers, ONIX Ensamble from Mexico:
"When we decided to prepare a performance of Pierre Boulez's The Hammer with no Master, we knew that we were facing a great challenge: a work of great technical and artistic complexity. What we present in this album is our live version, which we believe constitutes an original and truly Latin American interpretation. It was recorded in the year 2005, and since then it was put away, because we couldnt find the pieces that could accompany such monumentality, and its thirty-five minutes were not enough to complete a record project by itself. It was not until recently that ONIX decided to release this version, accompanied by also live performances of works by composers Maki Ishii and Elliott Carter, whose interpretive and compositional contribution was similar, both aesthetically and conceptually. Hard Core requires very strong instrumental skills, not only in the technical aspects for each individual player, but in terms of ensemble work. The recording is a challenge for the listener as well: hard core listening- necessary to appreciate and enjoy the innumerable contours of a sound reef full of details and complex refinements in timbre, dynamics, rhythms and harmony".
Man, this piece is really getting a hell of a lot of performances and recordings lately! Sooner or later I will find it too hard to keep up.........I want them all! I have most of them so far (including all of Boulez's own recordings).............
Quote from: shirime on October 13, 2018, 04:44:36 PM
Man, this piece is really getting a hell of a lot of performances and recordings lately! Sooner or later I will find it too hard to keep up.........I want them all! I have most of them so far (including all of Boulez's own recordings).............
I have two recordings of MsM with Boulez and one without. It is the one without him (Percussions de Strasbourg) that I responded to best. I can not say I actual like the work. (Basically the later the work in his career, the more I like it.)
I wishlisted this, although it is the Carter I would by it for. I don't think I have heard that piece before. (Ishii is unknown to me.)
Quote from: shirime on October 13, 2018, 04:44:36 PM
Man, this piece is really getting a hell of a lot of performances and recordings lately! Sooner or later I will find it too hard to keep up.........I want them all! I have most of them so far (including all of Boulez's own recordings).............
Good to see ou back on GMG! :)
BTW, I think I own
all recordings of
Le marteau sans maître that have been commercially released on CD ;). Six conducted by the composer (as listed here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5453.msg946697.html#msg946697)), and another six—one of them fragmentary—under other conductors (as listed here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5453.msg985180.html#msg985180)). Only the DVD of excerpts under
Rattle is missing from my collection.
Quote from: JBS on October 13, 2018, 05:34:36 PM
I have two recordings of MsM with Boulez and one without. It is the one without him (Percussions de Strasbourg) that I responded to best.
AFAIK, the recording of
Le marteau... included in the Percussions de Strasbourg box
is in fact led by
Boulez, as it's the same as this one (i.e. the second recording from the Domaine Muiscal, with
Jeanne Deroubaix as vocal soloist):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Vd5icJTWL.jpg)
The percussionists in the recording (
van Gucht on xylorimba,
Ricou on vibraphone and
Batigne on unpitched percussion) were members of the Strasbourg group, the other instrumentalists (e.g.
Gazzelloni on flute) were regular collaborators at the Domaine concerts.
QuoteI wishlisted this, although it is the Carter I would by it for. I don't think I have heard that piece before. (Ishii is unknown to me.)
I too am interested in this "Latin" take on
Le marteau..., but it still appears as unavailable in the European sites. The
Carter work I know from a recording by
Thomas Demenga et al. on ECM (coupled with
Bach suites for cello), but haven't listened to it for years.
Ishii is a new name to me as well.
THREAD DUTY:There's a new DVD of a documentary on
Boulez (plus performances of two
Stravinsky works with the LSO conducted by him) announced for mid November:
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/images/records/arthausmusik109350.jpg?1538777694)
The blurb from presto (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8501907--pierre-boulez-a-life-for-music):
Pierre Boulez was one of the most radical composers of our time. "He has produced a catalogue of wondrously luminous and scintillating works. Within them a rigorous compositional skill is coupled to an imagination of extraordinary aural refinement", so the British composer George Benjamin spoke of Boulez. Director Reiner Moritz, who worked closely with Boulez time and again through the years and almost had a friendly relationship with composer, tries to get as close to the real Boulez as one can possibly get in this documentary. He evolves an intimate portrait about the worldwide renowned and influential avant-gardist by means of the younger brother Roger, who told a lot about Pierre's childhood and youth and provided us with photographs from the Boulez-Chevalier archives as well as interviews with other contemporaries like the famous pianist and close friend Daniel Barenboim and the Hungarian composer Peter Eötvös. Excerpts of his own music and exemplary performances of Bruckner, Mahler, Mozart and Stravinsky complete the 98-minute documentary about Pierre Boulez, who died at the age of 90 in 2016.
The rhythmic complexities of the Sacre du printemps are notorious but, in the hands of a master of modern music and one of the world's top orchestras, the London Symphony Orchestra, the elemental barbarism of the music is thrilling. Boulez's definitive reading of Stravinsky's masterpiece was recorded live from the Alte Oper Frankfurt, in a performance specially staged for the cameras. The programme includes a short interview with the conductor about this landmark work as well as a performance of Stravinsky's Symphonies of Wind Instruments, another most interesting work of the composer.
Format: DVD2
Running time: 98 mins & 58 mins (concert)
Region: 0I find the bit about director
Reiner Moritz having "
almost had a friendly relationship with [the] composer" rather amusing, but quite in character, given the elusive private side of
Boulez's persona. ;D
This recent exchange in the WAYLTN thread might be useful here:
Quote from: ritter on October 28, 2018, 02:58:18 AM
Quote from: GioCar on October 28, 2018, 02:14:10 AM
Le Soleil des eaux, final revision 1965.
From CD3 of the Boulez box set
[asin]B00BLDHPZS[/asin]
Beautiful
Indeed, a wonderful work. I've had the chance to see it live twice (once conducted by the composer in London in the mid-90s, and then some 10 years ago here in Madrid), and it makes a great impression.
I hope that Boulez's original version, from 1948, is recovered some time soon. It was completely different AFAIK, as it was incidental music to René Char's radio play of the same title. The cantata, such as we know it, uses poems which actually are not from Le soleil des eaux, but rather from Char's collections Fureur et mystère and Les matinaux. I presume a recording of the original broadcast should be in the archives of the ORTF or the Institut National de l'Audioviduel.
Char's radio play was published in 1949 in a lavish edition illustrated by Georges Braque:
(https://www.mchampetier.com/sitephp/images/9zo_Georges_Braque_nov161.png)
Unfortunately, since AFAIK all 200 copies issued are signed both by the poet and the painter, they cost a small fortune...
...
Quote from: ritter on October 28, 2018, 10:39:00 AM
Quote from: GioCar on October 28, 2018, 10:00:02 AM
... AFAIK it has been revised three times since the original 1948 version. An excellent short introduction to it is also to be found in the Ircam database http://brahms.ircam.fr/works/work/6982/
That's a most interesting article....
So, we have all three versions of the cantata available on CD (i.e., Soleil des eaux 2, 3 & 4, as the IRCAM article names them), and only the original incidental music version remains unavailable.
Soleil des eaux "2":
[asin]B00005M0QU[/asin]
Soleil des eaux "3":
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ANwIYLY0L._SX522_.jpg)
Soleil des eaux "4":
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51AkaCd0YnL.jpg)
This is the recording included in the "Oeuvres Complètes" box on DG.
It must be noted that the INA disc shown above is a recording of the first performance of
Le Soleil des eaux "2". The back cover mistakenly mentions that there's a chorus, when in fact this version of the cantata is for soprano, tenor and baritone solos, and chamber orchestra (without chorus). A 3-part—S,T,B—chorus is introduced in the 1958
Soleil des eaux "3" (keeping as well the lineup of three vocal soloists), and in the final 1965 "4" version, the tenor and baritone soloists are no longer present (only the soprano soloist remains, along with a 4-part—S,A,T,B—chorus).
This article (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/arts/music/pierre-boulez-piano.html)form the NYT is a couple of months old, but somehow I missed. In it, Seth Colter Walls talks to Dutch pianist Ralph van Raat, who in September 2018 gave the world premiere of Boulez's early (it's from 1944, when the composer was 19) and unpublished 20-minute piano compostion Prélude, Toccata et Scherzo. He later played the piece in his Carnegie Hall debut in October 2018, and is slated to record it for Naxos next year. The article contains 1-minute snippets of each of the work's movements. An interesting insight into "pre-Boulez Boulez".
Just wanted to check in to this thread, as over the past month and a half or so, Pierre Boulez became a composer whose music I admire, appreciate, and, most of all, greatly enjoy. A couple of months ago I never could have said the same. I can't believe how much his music has grown on me, and I can't say I'm always receptive to it, but when I am, some of this stuff completely blows my mind.
My favorite works of his are Répons, Pli selon pli, and the 3 piano sonatas. I have a recording of Le Marteau sans maître, but I can't say that this work has clicked with me yet. I need to get into more of his music.
This is a phenomenal performance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIlfuf2wUok
... but I can't seem to find this recording on CD. I was hoping that maestro Honeck had recorded this Notations other than this video, as he's done a surprisingly great job with it, but alas. Has Matthias Pintscher recorded any of Boulez's works to disc? His performances on Youtube with the Ensemble Intercontemporain of various Boulez works are always incredible.
If anyone wants to show me other great works of his I'm missing out on, please feel free!
Anyone else been listening to Boulez lately? I'm happy to see that this thread has been so active over the years!
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 16, 2019, 05:13:22 PM
Just wanted to check in to this thread, as over the past month and a half or so, Pierre Boulez became a composer whose music I admire, appreciate, and, most of all, greatly enjoy. A couple of months ago I never could have said the same. I can't believe how much his music has grown on me, and I can't say I'm always receptive to it, but when I am, some of this stuff completely blows my mind.
My favorite works of his are Répons, Pli selon pli, and the 3 piano sonatas. I have a recording of Le Marteau sans maître, but I can't say that this work has clicked with me yet. I need to get into more of his music.
This is a phenomenal performance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIlfuf2wUok
... but I can't seem to find this recording on CD. I was hoping that maestro Honeck had recorded this Notations other than this video, as he's done a surprisingly great job with it, but alas. Has Matthias Pintscher recorded any of Boulez's works to disc? His performances on Youtube with the Ensemble Intercontemporain of various Boulez works are always incredible.
If anyone wants to show me other great works of his I'm missing out on, please feel free!
Anyone else been listening to Boulez lately? I'm happy to see that this thread has been so active over the years!
Very nice post,
vers la flamme. :) Great to see a fellow GMGer enjoying the music of
Boulez (one of my very favourite composers). And you've nicely described it: this is music that elicits admiration, appreciation and, most importantly,
enjoyment (once one has penetrated its sound world).
AFAIK, neither
Honeck nor
Pintscher have committed
PB's music to disc, which is a pity. I presume some time will have to elapse before the composer's own recordings are complemented by those of other artists. Hopefully we'll see some new releases for the composer's centennial in 2025.
You mention some great works in your post,
Répons and (particularly)
Pli selon pli being pieces I find fundamental and of a deep, intriguing beauty. I would urge you to give
Le marteau... another try, as it too is a breathtaking composition. And, I would recommend you listen to both the
Dérive pieces, and to
Mémoriale. Late
Boulez at the top of his game. This CD is a good introduction to
Dérive 2-–the more ambitious of both
Dérives—and to
Mémoriale, and includes some other interesting renditions of
Boulez works:
[asin]B01MZAVQGM[/asin]
But, of course, the "Complete Works" box on DG is essential if you really want to explore the composer.
EDIT (cross-posted from the WAYLTN thread):
Quote from: ritter on August 17, 2019, 08:15:09 AM
A great CD of Boulez sans Boulez:
[asin]B006CC9GW8[/asin]
Daniel Kawka conducts the Ensemble Orchestral Contemporain in Mémoriale, Dérive 1 and Dérive 2. I saw the same performers doing these same pieces live in concert some 10 years ago, and it was a memorable occasion. The concert was held at the chamber room of the National Auditorium here in Madrid. After it finished, most of those in attendance walked to the adjacent symphony hall, where we were greeted in the foyer by the fanfare Initiale, and we then attended a concert with the Spanish National Orchestra under Jordi Bernácer giving us Le soleil des eaux, Rituel and the orchestral Notations (plus the original piano Douze notations played by Dimitri Vassilakis). A wonderful "Boulezathon". :)
Thanks for the recommendations! I'll have to check out that Barenboim disc. I know Barenboim admired Boulez a lot and they've worked together several times in the past. I have an LP somewhere of Boulez conducting the Bartók piano concerti with young Barenboim as soloist.
I have the DG disc of Boulez conducting his Le Marteau sans maître, which includes the two Dérives, so I'll have to give those another listen. I have heard the entire disc but nothing has left too much of a mark on me just yet, at least not like Pli selon pli and Répons have. Still, despite my growing appreciation with his sound world, his music is not always easy by any means. But this sometimes challenging nature only contributes to the richness of his music.
Quote from: ritter on August 17, 2019, 07:33:06 AM
But, of course, the "Complete Works" box on DG is essential if you really want to explore the composer.
It looks excellent, but alas very expensive these days. I believe you're probably right though. I'm sure there are works on there that have never been otherwise recorded.
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 17, 2019, 08:19:59 AM
...
I have the DG disc of Boulez conducting his Le Marteau sans maître, which includes the two Dérives, so I'll have to give those another listen
....
That is a good disc, but be aware that
Dérive 2 such as it appears there is only an intermediary version (lasting some 24'). The final, revised and "complete" piece is twice as long, is far more satisfactory and cohesive IMHO, and can be found in the two discs I mention in my post above, as well as in the "Complete Works" set (with the composer conducting the Ensemble Modern).
Cheers,
Quote from: ritter on August 17, 2019, 08:29:17 AM
That is a good disc, but be aware that Dérive 2 such as it appears there is only an intermediary version (lasting some 24'). The final, revised and "complete" piece is twice as long, is far more satisfactory and cohesive IMHO, and can be found in the two discs I mention in my post above, as well as in the "Complete Works" set (with the composer conducting the Ensemble Modern).
Cheers,
Nice! I didn't know that. Definitely putting that Barenboim on the list. Looks great.
The AFAIK first (or at least, first major) biography of Pierre Boulez to be written after his death will be released--in French--by Fayard on October 2:
[asin]2213704929[/asin]
This is the publisher's blurb (originally in French):
"Adored or hated, Pierre Boulez spent his life dividing minds into two irreconcilable camps. A visionary and spearhead of modernity for some, a dictator who imposed a single aesthetic by reign terror for others, few artists have polarized and even hysterized the French musical life so much. And this since immediately after the war, when he gave himself the mission to introduce the avant-garde in a France he deemed retrograde and ossified at the time. He was an extraordinary musician, at the same time creator, performer, intellectual and man of action, to the point of sometimes giving the impression of leading several lives in one.
Three years after his death, it was time to return serenely to the nine decades of this multiple existence: the composer, the conductor, the thinker, the founder of institutions are assessed in this biography, for which hitherto unpublished archives were accessed. We enter the scenes of his battles (the Domaine Musical, IRCAM, the Ensemble Intercontemporain, Opéra Bastille, the Cité de la Musique, the Philharmonie de Paris). We see him renewing the technique and function of the conductor, while extending his influence on cultural policy. We follow him to every continent, in the greatest halls and the most prestigious festivals. We also try to give an introduction to his music, which does not fully reveal itself in a single listening. But above all, this book has set itself the goal of better understanding the complex and secret personality of the man who has worked hard to erase his tracks, resolutely maintaining an unusual gap between his public image of a cerebral sectarian, and the generous, emotional and hypersensitive private man."
Author Christian Merlin (born 1964 - Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Merlin)) has several books on music (mainly opera) to his credit. From what I see, I would expect this to be a "conventional" biography of Boulez , rather than a musicological treatise. Interestingly, publishers Fayard also have one of the standard books on Boulez in their catalogue, written by Dominque Jamieux. This earlier book stops in the mid-80s and is rather technical, making it less accessible to the general public.
Cross-posted from the New Releases thread:
Quote from: ritter on January 22, 2020, 07:55:15 AM
A new recording of Boulez's Le marteau sans maître to be launched by col legno in March:
(https://www.col-legno.com/pics_db/20447_boulez_cover_3500x3500.jpg)
The forces involved are the Einsemble Orchestral Contemporain led by Daniel Kawka, with mezzo-soprano Salomé Haller. The filler is Philippe Manoury's B-Partita (in memoriam Pierre Boulez), for violin, ensemble and electronics. It's a 23 minute piece from 2016.
Here's the promotional blurb:
"Pierre Boulez' Le Marteau sans maître is one of the essential compositions of the 20th century. Now, for the first time, this masterpiece appears on the same record as B-Partita, a tribute of French composer Philippe Manoury's (*1952) to Boulez. Basing his music on texts by René Char, Boulez (1925-2016) vacillated between extremes: Celestial sounds are contrasted with pulsing rhythms. Free-flowing passages meet rigid meters. Sung passages follow purely instrumental writing. The music is ever changing, but the goal of its metamorphosis remains constant and discernable. With the particular instrumentation, which aims at the gradual deconstruction of a singing voice into percussive elements (a style Boulez would come back to for the rest of his career), the young, 30-year old Boulez was coming into his own as a composer. Manoury's B-Partita, meanwhile, sees itself as a sympathetic homage to precisely that, Boulez', musical language".
Kawka's CD of Dérive I, Dérive II and Mémoriale on Naïve is superb, so this should be an interesting release
A list of recordings of
Le marteau... not conducted by the composer is available here (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5453.msg985180.html#msg985180), and of those led by Boulez himself here (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5453.msg946697.html#msg946697).
^Looks promising! I have been meaning to get my hands on some Boulez sans Boulez. In the case of his piano music, for instance, the music varies soo much depending on who is playing, and I bet that his other instrumental music is just as rewarding to varying interpretation.
Quote from: ritter on September 30, 2019, 06:57:52 AM
The AFAIK first (or at least, first major) biography of Pierre Boulez to be written after his death will be released--in French--by Fayard on October 2:
[asin]2213704929[/asin]
This is the publisher's blurb (originally in French):
"Adored or hated, Pierre Boulez spent his life dividing minds into two irreconcilable camps. A visionary and spearhead of modernity for some, a dictator who imposed a single aesthetic by reign terror for others, few artists have polarized and even hysterized the French musical life so much. And this since immediately after the war, when he gave himself the mission to introduce the avant-garde in a France he deemed retrograde and ossified at the time. He was an extraordinary musician, at the same time creator, performer, intellectual and man of action, to the point of sometimes giving the impression of leading several lives in one.
Three years after his death, it was time to return serenely to the nine decades of this multiple existence: the composer, the conductor, the thinker, the founder of institutions are assessed in this biography, for which hitherto unpublished archives were accessed. We enter the scenes of his battles (the Domaine Musical, IRCAM, the Ensemble Intercontemporain, Opéra Bastille, the Cité de la Musique, the Philharmonie de Paris). We see him renewing the technique and function of the conductor, while extending his influence on cultural policy. We follow him to every continent, in the greatest halls and the most prestigious festivals. We also try to give an introduction to his music, which does not fully reveal itself in a single listening. But above all, this book has set itself the goal of better understanding the complex and secret personality of the man who has worked hard to erase his tracks, resolutely maintaining an unusual gap between his public image of a cerebral sectarian, and the generous, emotional and hypersensitive private man."
Author Christian Merlin (born 1964 - Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Merlin)) has several books on music (mainly opera) to his credit. From what I see, I would expect this to be a "conventional" biography of Boulez , rather than a musicological treatise. Interestingly, publishers Fayard also have one of the standard books on Boulez in their catalogue, written by Dominque Jamieux. This earlier book stops in the mid-80s and is rather technical, making it less accessible to the general public.
Have you read it? If so, care to rate it on a scale of 1 to 5?
Quote from: Mandryka on January 22, 2020, 01:25:03 PM
Have you read it? If so, care to rate it on a scale of 1 to 5?
I haven't read it complete, but rather skimmed through it. The impression is of a well-researched book, comprehensively covering the different aspects of
Boulez's work throughout his long life, and providing a balanced portrait of a man who was always very protective of his private life (to the extent of giving the impression he had no private life at all). The discussins of his compositions are accessible to the layman.
So, cant rate it on a scale 1 to 5 (at least yet), but this is a valuable addition the the bibliography on
PB.
Quote from: ritter on January 23, 2020, 12:42:03 AM
I haven't read it complete, but rather skimmed through it. The impression is of a well-researched book, comprehensively covering the different aspects of Boulez's work throughout his long life, and providing a balanced portrait of a man who was always very protective of his private life (to the extent of giving the impression he had no private life at all). The discussins of his compositions are accessible to the layman.
So, cant rate it on a scale 1 to 5 (at least yet), but this is a valuable addition the the bibliography on PB.
So let me ask a test question, which you may or may not feel like answering.
If I buy it will the book help me understand exactly what the impact of
Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hasard was on Boulez -- or will it just tell me that he read it and liked it and said it influenced him in some unspecific way?
Quote from: Mandryka on January 23, 2020, 09:34:55 AM
So let me ask a test question, which you may or may not feel like answering.
If I buy it will the book help me understand exactly what the impact of Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hasard was on Boulez -- or will it just tell me that he read it and liked it and said it influenced him in some unspecific way?
I heartily recommend the following for that sort of angle:
[asin]1107687233[/asin]
I have the Merlin biography but haven't delved into it yet.
Quote from: petrarch on January 23, 2020, 01:06:30 PM
I heartily recommend the following for that sort of angle:
[asin]1107687233[/asin]
I have the Merlin biography but haven't delved into it yet.
Thanks, I've ordered it.
Mallarmé is a real stumbling block for me, and despite several efforts I have made very little progress with his late writing,
Quote from: Mandryka on January 23, 2020, 09:34:55 AM
So let me ask a test question, which you may or may not feel like answering.
If I buy it will the book help me understand exactly what the impact of Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hasard was on Boulez -- or will it just tell me that he read it and liked it and said it influenced him in some unspecific way?
I've taken a cursory look at
Merlin's book, and it doesn't seem to delve that much into the impact of
Mallarmé on
PB, although the matter does get a mention (particularly in pages 157-58, in relation to the
Troisième sonate).
The book
petrarch mentions also deals with the issue, but perhaps where it is analysed in greatest detail is in
Dominique Jameux's book:
[asin]2213010773[/asin]
The title of chapter 6 is "
Belle marquise, vos beaux yeux - De l'œuvre ouverte au « Livre » de Mallarmé".
What really had a tremendous impact on
Boulez, even more than
Un coup de dés I'd say, was
Mallarmé's unfinished (or rather, unfinishable)
Livre, the drafts of which were edited by
Jacques Scherer and published by Gallimard in 1957.
Boulez presented a copy to
Stravinsky—at the time of the Parisian
Threni debacle IIRC, and the adoption of "open" forms in the
Troisième sonate is believed by some to have been a result of reading that
Livre.
Unfortunately, the
Scherer edition of
Mallarmé's
Livre has been OOP for decades, and secondhand copies are not easy to find (I got hold of one at an affordable price not too long ago, but still haven't read it—it does seem rather daunting).
(http://www.gallimard.fr/var/storage/images/product/ffc/product_9782070299416_195x320.jpg)
The Jameux book is indeed worth having, and going over that chapter makes me realize all roads unavoidably lead to Alea and to Sonate, que me veux-tu? to get to the source of so much commentary--although the articles can be a bit elliptical.
Quote from: Mandryka on January 23, 2020, 07:52:21 PM
Mallarmé is a real stumbling block for me, and despite several efforts I have made very little progress with his late writing,
For an interesting take, a sort of reverse analysis, the closing chapter in this book analyses Mallarmé's own relationship with music, and how it influenced his writing:
[asin]2940068232[/asin]
Quote from: petrarch on January 25, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
For an interesting take, a sort of reverse analysis, the closing chapter in this book analyses Mallarmé's own relationship with music, and how it influenced his writing:
[asin]2940068232[/asin]
I've got the Contrechamps book. The whole thing needs time, it's hard.
As far as I can see a key paper in this by Boulez is
Sonata, que me veux-tu?
Quote from: petrarch on January 23, 2020, 01:06:30 PM
I heartily recommend the following for that sort of angle:
[asin]1107687233[/asin]
I have the Merlin biography but haven't delved into it yet.
So re Mallarme (sorry -- I don't know how to do accents on this keyboard) we read
QuoteIvanka Stoianova has discussed the link between Boulez's Third Sonata and Mallarme's Livre and mobile poetry in terms of Deleuzian difference and repetition.' Scherer reveals to us Mallarme's desire for identity in the Livre at the global level and within each of its component parts, such as the page and volume, in order to ensure a certain architectural order.' views Mallarme's quest for unity and identity in the light of the Deleuzian concept of difference, and she observes that the Livre's 'permutational technique' generates 'multiple meanings from "the same equation": In Mallarme's poetry, words cease to operate in conventional ways and function through a kind of mutual reflection, whereby each word no longer has its own colour. The continual realignment and 'reciprocal reflections of the syllables, words, lines, pages and volumes' results instead in the creation of a `universe of multiple meanings. Difference is thus charged with making the `multidirectional' Mallarmean text operate through the plurality of meanings engendered by its 'intersecting currents of thought. Identity in the Livre is to be understood in the identity of the structural principles which operate within it at different levels. This constitutes a 'profound identity' within which repetition functions as a play of difference, resulting in the multidirectional possibilities which constitute the work. Stoianova believes that Boulez's Third Sonata realises, within music, a similar 'profound identity' and play of repetition as difference.
I don't know anything about Deleuze; I haven't got a copy of Stoianova's
Geste Texte Musique though I can see an affordable one -- is it readable out of the context of a university class?; In some very informal and half baked way I can imagine that Mallarme does indeed create meanings through "intersecting currents of thought" -- but I wouldn't like to argue for it in a graduate class at Normale Sup.
Is this post me waving or me drowning? I'm now going to soothe my nerves with a Mozart piano sonata.
I want to say thanks to Mandryka for recommending this CD
[asin]B000LPRNVS[/asin]
Excellent Bach, excellent Boulez. I like it much better than the Aimard recording of Notations that I also have. I wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone. One might think of it as a relatively easy introduction to Boulez's music.
I'm glad you enjoyed the Fray, though I think that Aimard is very good too, in a different way.
I've been listening to the sonatine in this early recording, helped very much by Boulez's description of what he was doing in his Collège de France lectures. In fact, I think the form of the music, with its juxtaposition of thematic sections and free fantasy, is like a baroque keyboard Toccata (eg Buxtehude) - but Bouulez transcends that towards the end - the end of this music is just fabulous!
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1193/6852/products/71fhL6bHlSL._SL1400_1024x1024.jpeg?v=1466198815)
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 30, 2020, 04:38:56 PM
I want to say thanks to Mandryka for recommending this CD
[asin]B000LPRNVS[/asin]
Excellent Bach, excellent Boulez. I like it much better than the Aimard recording of Notations that I also have. I wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone. One might think of it as a relatively easy introduction to Boulez's music.
By the way, if you enjoy the Fray Notations, then maybe have a listen to Loriod's Webern variations here, she's similarly eloquent I think, she has a way of making the music very easy to follow,
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/28948179398.jpg?1547472177)
^That sounds awesome. I'll have to check it out. I have been listening to Idil Biret and Maurizio Pollini play the Webern Variations lately. Both very different from each other, both very good.
Quote from: Mandryka on January 31, 2020, 12:39:35 AM
By the way, if you enjoy the Fray Notations, then maybe have a listen to Loriod's Webern variations here, she's similarly eloquent I think, she has a way of making the music very easy to follow,
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/28948179398.jpg?1547472177)
And the same for the first movement of the second sonata. Edward Campbell claims that this is a conceptual piece to this extent: the music is structured by the repetition of the opening four note theme, but it's all is too dense and complex for all of that to be perceived through listening. Lloriod's response is to really slow the movement down to render the thematic material more visible. Maybe she overdoes it, and maybe Campbell's claim is exaggerated anyway, I don't know.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71bmhfL6yFL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: Mandryka on January 31, 2020, 09:05:24 AM
And the same for the first movement of the second sonata. Edward Campbell claims that this is a conceptual piece to this extent: the music is structured by the repetition of the opening four note theme, but it's all is too dense and complex for all of that to be perceived through listening. Lloriod's response is to really slow the movement down to render the thematic material more visible. Maybe she overdoes it, and maybe Campbell's claim is exaggerated anyway, I don't know.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71bmhfL6yFL._SS500_.jpg)
Doesn't the story go that when the young Loriod was presented with the score of this second Boulez sonata, she burst into tears at its insane complexity and difficulty, afraid that she wouldn't be able to pull it off? Or am I thinking of a different pianist...
I just want to stop by here and say that I'm now a Boulez convert. 8) I didn't think it would happen, but here's something deeply alluring about his music that I simply couldn't turn the volume down. I haven't even tipped the iceberg of his oeuvre yet, but I have to say I haven't been disappointed yet. The only work I've heard that I didn't really like, but it wasn't bad was Livre pour quatuor and this is only because I thought Webern did it better. :D But the works I've heard with either solo piano, various ensembles, etc. have been quite fine and fascinating listens.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 04, 2020, 08:12:08 AM
I just want to stop by here and say that I'm not a Boulez convert. 8) I didn't think it would happen, but here's something deeply alluring about his music that I simply couldn't turn the volume down. I haven't even tipped the iceberg of his oeuvre yet, but I have to say I haven't been disappointed yet. The only work I've heard that I didn't really like, but it wasn't bad was and this is only because I thought Webern did it better. :D But the works I've heard with either solo piano, various ensembles, etc. have been quite fine and fascinating listens.
Boulez had serious reservations about
Livre pour quatuor, that's why he reworked it considerably, in fact he was working on it as late as 2013.
Quote from: Mandryka on February 04, 2020, 10:26:00 AMBoulez had serious reservations about Livre pour quatuor, that's why he reworked it considerably, in fact he was working on it as late as 2013.
He revised many of his works throughout his life.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 04, 2020, 08:12:08 AM
I just want to stop by here and say that I'm not a Boulez convert. 8)
"
not a Boulez convert" or "
now a Boulez convert",
John? ;)
Be it as it may, I'm glad you're finding enjoyment and things to admire in
Boulez's music. You know how partial I am to his music, which IMHO is one of the pinnacles of music as an art form.
Quote from: ritter on February 04, 2020, 10:47:40 AM
"not a Boulez convert" or "now a Boulez convert", John? ;)
Be it as it may, I'm glad you're finding enjoyment and things to admire in Boulez's music. You know how partial I am to his music, which IMHO is one of the pinnacles of music as an art form.
Obviously,
now a Boulez convert. ;) Thanks, Rafael, yes, I'm really enjoying Boulez's sound-world and enjoy getting lost in it. Again, the textures, colors, etc. are extraordinary and are reason to give him serious consideration, which is something I ignorantly didn't do in the beginning.
I enjoy everything I've heard but Eclat is my favorite. There is a film about it, that is very much worthwhile to see for anyone interested in Boulez. Sur Incises also stick out in my mind as a favorite.
Quote from: San Antone on February 04, 2020, 10:55:36 AM
I enjoy everything I've heard but Eclat is my favorite. There is a film about it, that is very much worthwhile to see for anyone interested in Boulez. Sur Incises also stick out in my mind as a favorite.
Sur Incises is a work I referred to as 'a gamelan orchestra filtered through the Second Viennese School' in an earlier post I made today and, yes, it's a fine work, indeed. Funny you mentioned that Juxtaposition documentary on
Eclat, because I bought it earlier today. 8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 04, 2020, 10:57:13 AM
Sur Incises is a work I referred to as 'a gamelan orchestra filtered through the Second Viennese School' in an earlier post I made today and, yes, it's a fine work, indeed. Funny you mentioned that Juxtaposition documentary on Eclat, because I bought it earlier today. 8)
That film, more than any other source I've read, was very informative about Boulez and his process of composition. I hope you enjoy it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 04, 2020, 10:41:55 AM
He revised many of his works throughout his life.
The diffence is that with the
Livre what Boulez did is more like a rewrite than a revision or an orchestration --
rewrite is indeed the concept Boulez himself used to describe what he had done in an interview in 2000. In fact it's many years since I heard the first
Livre, but Boulez's revision -- which was still not completely finished when he died -- has been commercially recorded by Diotima Quartet. If you're interested I can let you have the recording, which was recenly very hard to find. It is, in my opinion, magnificent.
Quote from: San Antone on February 04, 2020, 11:02:12 AM
That film, more than any other source I've read, was very informative about Boulez and his process of composition. I hope you enjoy it.
Thanks, San Antone.
Quote from: Mandryka on February 04, 2020, 11:02:22 AM
The diffence is that with the Livre what Boulez did is more like a rewrite than a revision or an orchestration -- rewrite is indeed the concept Boulez himself used to describe what he had done in an interview in 2000. In fact it's many years since I heard the first Livre, but Boulez's revision -- which was still not completely finished when he died -- has been commercially recorded by Diotima Quartet. If you're interested I can let you have the recording, which was recenly very hard to find. It is, in my opinion, magnificent.
8)
Thanks for the offer, Mandryka, but there's so much I need to hear first.
It often seems in Boulez that there's a contained insanity behind all the exotic textures, and it can feel both intellectually rigorous and unhinged at the same time, something I find thrilling and intriguingly alien at times. Currently I'd say explosante-fixe, Sur Incises, Eclat, Le Marteau sans maitre and Repons rank particularly highly in my affections.
Quote from: Iota on February 04, 2020, 12:22:00 PM
It often seems in Boulez that there's a contained insanity behind all the exotic textures, and it can feel both intellectually rigorous and unhinged at the same time, something I find thrilling and intriguingly alien at times.
One of the things I've been listening to recently is an example of this - the orchestrations he made of Notations. Gielen recorded them. In truth I'm not sure what to make of his music for large ensemble, it's so sensual, so full of catchy themes and and foot tapping rhythms, it's almost decadent! The orchestrated notations have something in common with Richard Strauss!
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71SQIDhk7ZL._SL1012_.jpg)
Quote from: Iota on February 04, 2020, 12:22:00 PM
It often seems in Boulez that there's a contained insanity behind all the exotic textures, and it can feel both intellectually rigorous and unhinged at the same time, something I find thrilling and intriguingly alien at times. Currently I'd say explosante-fixe, Sur Incises, Eclat, Le Marteau sans maitre and Repons rank particularly highly in my affections.
A contained insanity? Hmmm...I like it! I should use this phrase on a bumper sticker. :P
The only work (other than his piano sonatas) I've tried of this composer is Le Marteau sans maïtre and I thought it was fascinating but uneasy at once. Are there other works of his that sound more approachable?
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on February 04, 2020, 02:13:49 PM
The only work (other than his piano sonatas) I've tried of this composer is Le Marteau sans maïtre and I thought it was fascinating but uneasy at once. Are there any works of his that sound more approachable?
Of the works I've heard so far, I wouldn't say any of them are approachable, because, for me, this implies that one can start listening without any adjustment on the listener's part. I think a listener needs to go into listening to Boulez's music with some kind of understanding of what they're about to listen to. I really would like to get to the song cycles,
Le Marteau sans maître and
Pli selon Pli. Mallarmé, like Debussy and Ravel, seemed to be an influence on Boulez and it might be interesting to program Debussy and Ravel with one of these Boulez works. It seems that
...explosante-fixe... is a work that gets recommended the most to newcomers. It seems several members here suggested this be the first work someone should hear first. Of course, I ignored them, because I had already heard
Répons about 7-8 years ago. ;D I really liked this work, but for whatever reason, I felt during that time I wasn't prepared for Boulez just yet.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 04, 2020, 02:30:29 PM
Of the works I've heard so far, I wouldn't say any of them are approachable, because, for me, this implies that one can start listening without any adjustment on the listener's part. I think a listener needs to go into listening to Boulez's music with some kind of understanding of what they're about to listen to. I really would like to get to the song cycles, Le Marteau sans maître and Pli selon Pli. Mallarmé, like Debussy and Ravel, seemed to be an influence on Boulez and it might be interesting to program Debussy and Ravel with one of these Boulez works. It seems that ...explosante-fixe... is a work that gets recommended the most to newcomers. It seems several members here suggested this be the first work someone should hear first. Of course, I ignored them, because I had already heard Répons about 7-8 years ago. ;D I really liked this work, but for whatever reason, I felt during that time I wasn't prepared for Boulez just yet.
Interesting response, John. Thank you. His stuff is, somehow, in my view, intellectual and artistic rather than 'easy' and instantly enjoyable, hence its peculiar merit. The music's secrets are not unveiled on first hearings at all. Something similar happened to me with Schonberg and Carter.
Quote from: Iota on February 04, 2020, 12:22:00 PM
Currently I'd say explosante-fixe, Sur Incises, Eclat, Le Marteau sans maitre and Repons rank particularly highly in my affections.
I would say that these three works would be a good entry point to Boulez for a newbie.
Great to have you on the team, John ;D You will find much to love in both Le Marteau and Pli selon pli but I can see the latter being particularly up your alley.
I have been loving some Boulez as of late too: the piano Notations, the Deuxième sonate, and I just got this great CD today:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61rajTHoVXL._SX1200_.jpg)
I want to say thanks to whoever it was here that originally recommended it to me. (I want to say it was Ritter)—damn good! I always appreciate hearing Boulez sans Boulez.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 04, 2020, 10:57:13 AM
Sur Incises is a work I referred to as 'a gamelan orchestra filtered through the Second Viennese School' in an earlier post I made today and, yes, it's a fine work, indeed. Funny you mentioned that Juxtaposition documentary on Eclat, because I bought it earlier today. 8)
Then you will enjoy the documentary on
Sur Incises greatly, particularly if you compare it to
Incises, the solo piano work from which it was derived.
Sur Incises is not only is a grand extrapolation on
Incises, but also on the piano sound itself, with each type of instrument representing one of 3 facets of a piano (the strings, the hammers, the keys, IIRC).
I find Boulez's music exquisitely sensual and he's one of my favorite composers.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on February 04, 2020, 02:41:51 PM
Interesting response, John. Thank you. His stuff is, somehow, in my view, intellectual and artistic rather than 'easy' and instantly enjoyable, hence its peculiar merit. The music's secrets are not unveiled on first hearings at all. Something similar happened to me with Schonberg and Carter.
Funny you mentioned Carter as he's a composer that just fails to engage me on any kind of level. I've tried to wrap my head around some of his music, but I should probably revisit those SQs which are quite acclaimed. One of the nice things about Boulez is he's like colorist in many regards. It seems he paints with a carefully considered brush --- only the finest bristles, paints, and so forth. This is music that somehow exists in the mind's eye but is able to touch on certain emotional states that many other composers of the same time aren't quite able to achieve.
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 04, 2020, 03:24:16 PM
Great to have you on the team, John ;D You will find much to love in both Le Marteau and Pli selon pli but I can see the latter being particularly up your alley.
I have been loving some Boulez as of late too: the piano Notations, the Deuxième sonate, and I just got this great CD today:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61rajTHoVXL._SX1200_.jpg)
I want to say thanks to whoever it was here that originally recommended it to me. (I want to say it was Ritter)—damn good! I always appreciate hearing Boulez sans Boulez.
It's good to be in the company of the forum's Boulezians. :) That Naive recording looks like a great disc. Has any heard the newer Barenboim recording?
[asin]B01MZAVQGM[/asin]
Elliott Carter is a composer whose music enchanted me from the first moment I heard the 2nd string quartet. I'd have to say that I put him a little above Boulez in my pantheon of composers. For one reason, he wrote so much more music than Boulez, and there is so much there to investigate.
8)
Quote from: petrarch on February 04, 2020, 03:54:56 PM
Then you will enjoy the documentary on Sur Incises greatly, particularly if you compare it to Incises, the solo piano work from which it was derived. Sur Incises is not only is a grand extrapolation on Incises, but also on the piano sound itself, with each type of instrument representing one of 3 facets of a piano (the strings, the hammers, the keys, IIRC).
I find Boulez's music exquisitely sensual and he's one of my favorite composers.
Looking forward to the documentary, indeed. Good to know you like his music so much. I may have some questions down the road for you and others here.
I'd love to have all of your input on this new thread:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,29549.0.html (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,29549.0.html)
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on February 04, 2020, 02:13:49 PM
Are there other works of his that sound more approachable?
Messagesquisse; Derive 1, memoriale, sonatine, notations, the revised Livre de cordes if you can find it, possibly répons.
Quote from: Mandryka on February 04, 2020, 08:14:18 PM
Messagesquisse; Derive 1, memoriale, sonatine, notations, the revised Livre de cordes if you can find it, possibly répons.
Thanks Mandryka. Will investigate.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on February 05, 2020, 06:26:31 AM
Thanks Mandryka. Will investigate.
You should definitely listen to
Incises and
Sur Incises and play them back-to-back. Quite fascinating experience.
Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread -
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 05, 2020, 09:14:59 AM
Boulez
Le Marteau sans maître
Hilary Summers, contralto
Boulez
Ensemble InterContemporain
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71k74Au7VML._SL1400_.jpg)
Hilary Summers
(https://www.maxinerobertson.com/assets/uploads/2017/04/hil_1014.jpg)
(https://nyphil.org/~/media/images/blog/2016/01/Boulez-Slideshow/1-IM_800-010-01-005_001-credit-Clive-Barda.ashx)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Le Marteau sans maître is a nine-part cycle, composed for contralto and six instrumentalists. Each of the parts is scored differently; four are for voice and changing instruments, while five are purely instrumental. On the one hand, the five instrumental pieces are organised in a prelude and postlude to the first vocal piece and, on the other, in three commentaries on the third vocal piece.
However, cohesive vocal and instrumental parts do not follow one another directly; they are woven throughout the entire piece like a web. The words of the second poem appear in two musical versions (Nos. V and IX). Comparison of the two versions makes the difference in handling the singing voice very clear: one the one hand, cantabile-melismatic, then syllabic voice leading combined with the melodic instruments alto flute, guitar, viola and, on the other, Sprechgesang with predominantly percussion accompaniment and wordless, quasi instrumental singing.
[From Universal Edition]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This work has echoes of Debussy's work for reciter and ensemble, Les Chansons de Bilitis. It's as if this work from Boulez was the logical extension of the afore mentioned Debussy work. Quite an intriguing sound-world. The flute work is most obviously Debussyan and what called this composer immediately to mind.
I was reading through some Hurwitz's 'reviews' of Boulez's different recordings on DG and I couldn't help but laugh. It's clear he doesn't like Boulez, but seems to relish any opportunity he can to lash out at his thoughtless and narrow-minded statements. One of the things that I found most telling was this comment in regards to the Complete set on DG: "Thirteen discs of this stuff is torture--27 works that graphically illuminate the utter failure of the post-War avant-garde. It will be interesting to see if anyone cares about Boulez when he's not around to promote himself." I can't see the rest of the comment as you have to have a subscription to do any further reading in this particular 'review' but with comments like that, I'd never give Hurwitz a dime of my money. Post-WWII avant-garde a failure? I think not --- look no further to than composers like Dusapin, Neuwirth, Chin, Adès, Haas, Takemitsu, Eötvös, Benjamin, Grisey, Dufourt, etc. I think what really happened was Boulez met Hurwitz one time and Hurwitz didn't enjoy the encounter, so he took it to heart and couldn't wait to trash him. Of course, there's also the fact that he just doesn't like the music and that's fine, but I think he should spend his energies listening to music he enjoys (I'd wager he hasn't heard all of Boulez's oeuvre anyway).
The reality about Boulez's music, for me, is I'm actually finding a lot of his music quite approachable and enjoyable...yes, I said enjoyable. :) I have always been a listener that has been interested in harmony, rhythm, color and texture in music --- not necessarily melody, because I think a melody can be found within a series of harmonic progressions, but I don't listen to Boulez for melodic content even though there's, surprisingly enough, more melody than one could imagine. You just have to dig a bit deeper into texture to find it and this could be a matter of even going back to a particular phrase to hear it again. So far, I find Boulez at his best with a small ensemble but I did enjoy some of the solo piano works like Incises, Notations, and the 1st Piano Sonata.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 05, 2020, 12:11:28 PM
The reality about Boulez's music, for me, is I'm actually finding a lot of his music quite approachable and enjoyable...yes, I said enjoyable. :) I have always been a listener that has been interested in harmony, rhythm, color and texture in music --- not necessarily melody, because I think a melody can be found within a series of harmonic progressions, but I don't listen to Boulez for melodic content even though there's, surprisingly enough, more melody than one could imagine. You just have to dig a bit deeper into texture to find it and this could be a matter of even going back to a particular phrase to hear it again. So far, I find Boulez at his best with a small ensemble but I did enjoy some of the solo piano works like Incises, Notations, and the 1st Piano Sonata.
I see you're beginning to realize that Boulez is much more approachable than people give him credit for. I would call him one of the easier composers to love of the postwar avant-garde. His music is great. Some of his works,
Pli selon pli and
Répons in particular come to mind, are towering, endless works, like staring down a chasm into a fractal that goes on forever, and then jumping into it and falling at an extreme speed. His music was a big discovery for me. He is easily one of the 5 greatest French composers of the 20th century (and of course, he worked well into the 21st).
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 05, 2020, 04:37:28 PM
I see you're beginning to realize that Boulez is much more approachable than people give him credit for. I would call him one of the easier composers to love of the postwar avant-garde. His music is great. Some of his works, Pli selon pli and Répons in particular come to mind, are towering, endless works, like staring down a chasm into a fractal that goes on forever, and then jumping into it and falling at an extreme speed. His music was a big discovery for me. He is easily one of the 5 greatest French composers of the 20th century (and of course, he worked well into the 21st).
I think it's important to keep in mind when approaching any new music is one's own perception of the music not someone else's. And what I mean by this is it's quite easy to get caught up on the 'I Hate Boulez And The Avant-Garde' bandwagon when you have this critic or that musician telling you how bad it is, but what it boils down to is what do
you hear in the music. This is why I believe Boulez will be a composer that will continue to be discovered not only by other composers working today, but by listeners. His coloristic approach to music will continue to slip into the ears and minds of the listeners. What sounds foreign to one now won't sound that way once you've heard enough of the music and not just his music but even going further back with Debussy or the Second Viennese School. People just have to be receptive to the music and what's actually interesting about all of this is I find Boulez much more approachable than a composer like Ferneyhough or Carter, although I don't completely dislike Carter's music, but he's just a composer whose aesthetic doesn't really do much for me. Anyway, I look forward to exploring more of Boulez's music down the road.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 05, 2020, 11:54:59 AM
Hurwitz's 'reviews' (...) "Thirteen discs of this stuff is torture"
Thirteen discs of ecstatic joy. I love that box!
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 05, 2020, 04:37:28 PM
Some of his works, Pli selon pli and Répons in particular come to mind, are towering, endless works
Curiously, I never really warmed up to
Répons, not even live (though I would not hesitate in going again), unlike, say
...explosante-fixe... or
Marteau.
Now
Pli salon pli is a totally different matter... For some reason, ever since I listened to the 1981 recording on Erato, my first serious exposure to Boulez some 30 years ago, I fell under its spell, right from that opening chord and the solitary line sung by the soprano in
Don. To me it is Boulez at his most consummate--the larger forces when compared to
Marteau (and I generally prefer chamber music due to its greater clarity and timbral refinement), the variety (and concision!) which I have never found in
Répons, despite being longer by about half, are distinguishing characteristics that make me rank it just a little bit higher than the rest of his works.
Quote from: petrarch on February 05, 2020, 05:47:28 PM
Thirteen discs of ecstatic joy. I love that box!
Curiously, I never really warmed up to Répons, not even live (though I would not hesitate in going again), unlike, say ...explosante-fixe... or Marteau.
Now Pli salon pli is a totally different matter... For some reason, ever since I listened to the 1981 recording on Erato, my first serious exposure to Boulez some 30 years ago, I fell under its spell, right from that opening chord and the solitary line sung by the soprano in Don. To me it is Boulez at his most consummate--the larger forces when compared to Marteau (and I generally prefer chamber music due to its greater clarity and timbral refinement), the variety (and concision!) which I have never found in Répons, despite being longer by about half, are distinguishing characteristics that make me rank it just a little bit higher than the rest of his works.
Interesting, Petrarch. Quite looking forward to hearing
Pli selon pli now given how much it has meant to you.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 05, 2020, 04:51:33 PM
I think it's important to keep in mind when approaching any new music is one's own perception of the music not someone else's. And what I mean by this is it's quite easy to get caught up on the 'I Hate Boulez And The Avant-Garde' bandwagon when you have this critic or that musician telling you how bad it is, but what it boils down to is what do you hear in the music. This is why I believe Boulez will be a composer that will continue to be discovered not only by other composers working today, but by listeners. His coloristic approach to music will continue to slip into the ears and minds of the listeners. What sounds foreign to one now won't sound that way once you've heard enough of the music and not just his music but even going further back with Debussy or the Second Viennese School. People just have to be receptive to the music and what's actually interesting about all of this is I find Boulez much more approachable than a composer like Ferneyhough or Carter, although I don't completely dislike Carter's music, but he's just a composer whose aesthetic doesn't really do much for me. Anyway, I look forward to exploring more of Boulez's music down the road.
You see I don't think that Boulez from the 1970s onwards was an avant garde composer. He was before.
Quote from: Mandryka on February 05, 2020, 09:07:26 PM
You see I don't think that Boulez from the 1970s onwards was an avant garde composer. He was before.
There's definitely some truth in that. He experimented with many different compositional styles, but, as you know, I'm still just getting into his music.
Quote from: Mandryka on February 04, 2020, 01:03:20 PM
One of the things I've been listening to recently is an example of this - the orchestrations he made of Notations. Gielen recorded them ... it's so sensual, so full of catchy themes and and foot tapping rhythms, it's almost decadent! The orchestrated notations have something in common with Richard Strauss!
Agreed, 'sensual' and 'decadent' definitely fit the bill for Notations. And yes you're right Straussian, though however freely Strauss' music soars at times it never feels quite as unanchored as this to me.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 04, 2020, 01:37:06 PM
A contained insanity? Hmmm...I like it! I should use this phrase on a bumper sticker. :P
A bumper year for Boulez, excellent! Roulez Boulez!
Quote from: San Antone on February 04, 2020, 03:16:27 PM
I would say that these three works [Sur Incises, Eclat, Repons] would be a good entry point to Boulez for a newbie.
I Agree. What first attracted me to Boulez' music was what I perceived as a Kandinsky-like quality I found in it, and Eclat for example, with all its transparency and colour and even perhaps a whiff of humour at the end, is a good example of that.
Quote from: Iota on February 06, 2020, 03:47:30 AMI Agree. What first attracted me to Boulez' music was what I perceived as a Kandinsky-like quality I found in it, and Eclat for example, with all its transparency and colour and even perhaps a whiff of humour at the end, is a good example of that.
But what's remarkable is how much organization there actually is in the music and how each note is so well considered. Kardinsky-like quality, yes, to some degree, but I look at Boulez much like Webern --- there's perfection in the tiniest detail.
"Organaized delirium" was the composer's pharse... :)
Quote from: ritter on February 06, 2020, 08:53:09 AM
"Organaized delirium" was the composer's pharse... :)
I think this would make an even better bumper sticker. :)
Quote from: Mandryka on February 05, 2020, 09:07:26 PM
You see I don't think that Boulez from the 1970s onwards was an avant garde composer. He was before.
It was a silly thing to have said because the man was always thinking of new things about music, exploring new ideas. I think part of the reason I said it wasn't avant garde is that it's so accessible -- it's not like listening to Milton Babbitt or Richard Barrett. But that just compounds stupidity with stupidity.
I've come to realise that most of Boulez post 1970 is not for me now. It's often too thrilling, too intensely exciting, too sensual and colourful sounding, often too large scale. There are exceptions, like the revised livre de cordes. It's mostly, not what I want from music at the moment.
Quote from: Mandryka on February 06, 2020, 10:50:39 AM
It was a silly thing to have said because the man was always thinking of new things about music, exploring new ideas. I think part of the reason I said it wasn't avant garde is that it's so accessible -- it's not like listening to Milton Babbitt or Richard Barrett. But that just compounds stupidity with stupidity.
I've come to realise that most of Boulez post 1970 is not for me now. It's often too thrilling, too intensely exciting, too sensual and colourful sounding, often too large scale. There are exceptions, like the revised livre de cordes. It's mostly, not what I want from music at the moment.
There's plenty of avant-garde music that is accessible look at the commercial success of composers like Ligeti and Penderecki for example. Even if you isolated the music from the films their music was used in, it's still much easier to digest then you'd initially think.
What does everyone think of this documentary?
(https://www.euroarts.com/sites/default/files/styles/disk_cover_1000_/public/media_product/Euroarts%202058048%20pierre%20boulez%20cover.jpg?itok=CcIOdSm9)
Well, I already bought it. Looking forward to it even if it is mostly 'fluff'.
Nobody has seen the documentary I posted a cover of above?
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 07, 2020, 06:50:43 PM
Nobody has seen the documentary I posted a cover of above?
I haven't, but I see it's on youtube. Will have to check it out.
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 08, 2020, 04:06:42 AM
I haven't, but I see it's on youtube. Will have to check it out.
Very cool. I didn't even realize it was on YouTube, but I'm glad I bought the DVD. Still need to get around to those Juxtaposition documentaries.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 07, 2020, 06:50:43 PM
Nobody has seen the documentary I posted a cover of above?
I have it and it is worthwhile watching for the infectious enthusiasm he clearly has for music, particularly the warm thoughtfulness towards students and musicians.
The most comprehensive set of documentaries is the Boulez XXe siècle 6-episode series, details of which you can find at https://medias.ircam.fr/x338e91 (a couple of episodes are on YT, but they appear to have been captured from Spanish TV). I saw them when they were originally broadcast and some years ago that page @ IRCAM actually allowed streaming, and I dutifully downloaded them all ;) (happy to upload them somewhere if you are interested).
Quote from: petrarch on February 08, 2020, 06:31:10 AM
I have it and it is worthwhile watching for the infectious enthusiasm he clearly has for music, particularly the warm thoughtfulness towards students and musicians.
8) One thing I've noticed about Boulez and the musicians he has worked through years is their positive experience with him. Rattle said he was amongst the most humble and kindest of musicians he's ever known --- he mentioned that he spent an hour and half going through a piece with him (I believe the work in question was
Le Marteau sans maître). Kind of a fitting for someone who was deemed an 'enfant terrible' early on. ::) ;) I've come to the conclusion that Boulez had a right to his own opinions (even if not all of them I agreed with), but, make no mistake, he
knew music inside out and consistently demonstrated this throughout his entire career. I'd love to read some of the books analyzing his own music (and there are some good ones out there), but I'm afraid my little pea brain couldn't even fathom what is being taught.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 08, 2020, 06:38:47 AM
8) One thing I've noticed about Boulez and the musicians he has worked through years is their positive experience with him. Rattle said he was amongst the most humble and kindest of musicians he's ever known --- he mentioned that he spent an hour and half going through a piece with him. Kind of a fitting for someone who was deemed an 'enfant terrible' early on. ::) ;) I've come to conclusion that Boulez had a right to his own opinions (even if not all of them I agreed with), but, make no mistake, he knew inside out and consistently demonstrated this throughout his entire career. I'd love to read some of the books analyzing his own music (and there are some good ones out there), but I'm afraid my little pea brain couldn't even fathom what is being taught.
Indeed, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of students and professionals with very warm and positive memories of Boulez. Here's one I preserved:
QuoteOn Jan 6, 2016, at 7:22 PM, Clovis Lark <Clovis@usuo.org> wrote:
Pierre Boulez "Mémoriale"
I first met Pierre Boulez in 1976. Although I had read of this man as being aloof, icy and difficult, I was immediately aware of someone quite different: warm, genuinely caring and always willing to lend his help when asked. In 1986, there was his offering of an IRCAM job to a computer programming friend of mine in need, who approached him after a concert of Répons in New York. Later, when I found myself without enough clout on my resume, he sent a handwritten letter of "to whom...", accompanied by another letter of apology for having allowed 3 weeks to pass before responding. He loved hearing from old acquaintances, curious to know of their lives and quick to offer his hospitality should they be able to visit him, whether in Salzburg, Chicago or Cleveland. I have a note offering to show me around Lucerne and his Academy which, sadly, I was unable to accommodate. Similarly, he excitedly offered to show me all the antiquated stage machinery in Bayreuth, should I be there during his residency. Whenever our paths crossed in Cleveland, New York or Chicago, he always carved out time to visit and share ideas.
While many aspects of Boulez's life were quite private, his persona never appeared standoffish. Rehearsals were always open, and he made himself readily available during breaks to both players and guests. The aura of austere detachment cultivated by critics and audiences in their observations of his concert demeanor, was contradicted by the good nature and respect for players exhibited in rehearsal where he was quick to break potential tension with a short quip. At break he would stand at the podium until all players who might have questions had an opportunity to consult with him. Often, he was the last off the stage. Once in his dressing room, the topics could range as far as the appropriateness of "préservatif" commercials on French prime time news to discussions of minutiae in the next week's program. And always his mind was alert and ready to discuss any piece of music, just as long as it wasn't Shostakovich!
He took the ups and downs in life with good humor as well. Arrested in Basel as a terrorist to the outrage of his secretaries, he recounted the incident with humor and laughter. Similarly, when his tiny pen knife was confiscated in O'Hare, his annoyance was tinged with a twinkle in his eye as he imagined their shock when he returned and demanded it back (he never did get its return). In Ojai, he and his valet, Hans, stood for several minutes watching a crow perched atop a portable toilet, talking animatedly. Hans said the discussion was a about a bird they had once seen at the seaside, taking clams in its beak and dropping them from on high to break the shells.
There was an aura, one he clearly cultivated for a time, of a lack of respect for the past. But, in reality, nothing could be further from the truth. For Boulez, history was incredibly important. It was tradition that he couldn't stand. He called it a "bad game of 'Telephone'" where a past reality is progressively distorted through various incarnations until it is so mangled as to be unrecognizable. But history was another matter. After the composer Arnold Schoenberg died, Boulez notoriously wrote "Schoenberg is Dead". While the essay clearly does not skimp on Boulez's impatience for some of Schoenberg's compositional habits, it is clearly written out of a deep respect for Schoenberg's achievements which Boulez followed with a lifetime of beautifully crafted performances. When UCLA decided to rename Schoenberg Hall for Moe Austin (honoring a large donation), Boulez was one of the first people I contacted to help in the successful fight to retain Schoenberg's name. He even retracted his article's title when he was asked in New York after a presentation of Schoenberg's Op. 29 Suite whether he thought "Schoenberg was still dead?" "No. But he needs strong medicine!"
Where Boulez was clearly and authentically dismissive was with regard to the future, especially when asked about his legacy and what future music would be like. He was resolute in letting others learn and perform his music without his interference. Regarding the future, he mentioned futuristic picture postcards that were for sale in Paris around 1900. In them, all the buildings had hot air balloons tethered to the roofs, as that was what people imagined the future would bring. Nobody had any concept of something like an airplane! The vision of the future was entirely based upon the present and past experience.
This is the Pierre Boulez I knew. He was a formidable composer, with a formidable firmness of mind, and also a formidable conductor, "out of necessity", as he told me (circumstances forcing him to learn the trade to get Le Marteau sans maître performed). But without the character I knew, all that achievement would have been hollow.
Sent from my iPhone
Very nice memories of Boulez those by Clovis Lark you posted, petrach. :)
John, that Lucerne documentary is certainly worthwhile. I very much enjoyed it when it first came out on DVD.
Thanks for the post, petrach. 8)
Quote from: ritter on February 08, 2020, 07:21:10 AM
Very nice memories of Boulez those by Clovis Lark you posted, petrach. :)
John, that Lucerne documentary is certainly worthwhile. I very much enjoyed it when it first came out on DVD.
Very good to read, Rafael and good day to you, good sir.
Here's another message from later in that thread:
Quote
Some Boulez banter courtesy of my friend Clovis Lark!...
"Here it is:
This happened in May of 2001 (Donatoni had died the previous August).
Boulez was rehearsing the Chicago Chamber Musicians in Franco Donatoni's Tema. The piece is an incredibly fluid series of variations, rhythmically complex, BUT completely composed in 5/4 meter. Meaning that there are all sort of ties and phrasings that cross over the barlines, making it a nightmare for performers to read while learning the piece.
John Yeh, Assistant Principal Clarinet for the Chicago Symphony and a superb musician is sitting in shorts, his bicycle helmet under his chair. They come to a certain passage and he's off. Boulez stops, waits, makes no comment, then says they will start at a point just prior. They play, and again Yeh is off, Boulez stops, again says nothing. John Yeh says, "Don't worry, it will be right tomorrow." Boulez nods and simply proceeds. They come to another place in the piece and have to stop again for ensemble. Silence.
John Yeh asks, "Is this guy dead?"
Boulez responds, "Oh yes, he died just recently."
Yeh, "Good. Because if was alive, I'd have to kill him!" Absolute silence...
Yeh, quietly, " Did you know him?"
Boulez, "Yes. He was my friend. He wrote this for me and the Ensemble." Absolutely silence...
Yeh, very apologetically, "Oh. Sorry maestro. I didn't know."
Boulez, very energetically laughs, "But of course! This is a disaster. Everything in 5/4. It's impossible to read. I am hoping to rebar it someday for republication."
Inside this moment is something very precious about Boulez, his trust of the ability of those around him. Yeh failing to get through a passage twice and stopping the ensemble each time might cause most conductors to focus on him and make him play it correctly before moving on. Boulez understood and trusted Yeh. If Yeh said that it would be correct, that was enough! And Yeh didn't make any mistakes the following day! And Boulez never rebarred the piece.
Wow, these stories are great, Petrarch. What a great guy, he seems like someone who'd be great to work with. It's too bad I never got the chance to see him in performance in his lifetime.
Favorite recordings of Boulez sans Boulez? I have this one:
[asin]B006CC9GW8[/asin]
... and it's great. I posted an Amazon link as there are cheap copies for sale in the marketplace, I hope someone here gets one! Anyway, the Mémoriale for solo flute and ensemble is very good, as is the Dérive 1—Dérive 2, which I listened to yesterday, is a monster of a work. I cannot even begin to wrap my head around it. Very good, but it is just massive and twisted in so many ways.
What are some more good ones? I am interested in the Pascal Gallois with Le Marteau sans maître:
[asin]B01MTTJ40B[/asin]
... and I see Daniel Kawka will be conducting that work on an upcoming CD as well:
[asin]B083XV7L3L[/asin]
Le Marteau is a challenging work. I say the more recordings, the more varying interpretations, the better.
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 08, 2020, 09:55:34 AM
Favorite recordings of Boulez sans Boulez? I have this one:
[asin]B006CC9GW8[/asin]
... and it's great. I posted an Amazon link as there are cheap copies for sale in the marketplace, I hope someone here gets one! Anyway, the Mémoriale for solo flute and ensemble is very good, as is the Dérive 1—Dérive 2, which I listened to yesterday, is a monster of a work. I cannot even begin to wrap my head around it. Very good, but it is just massive and twisted in so many ways.
What are some more good ones? I am interested in the Pascal Gallois with Le Marteau sans maître:
[asin]B01MTTJ40B[/asin]
... and I see Daniel Kawka will be conducting that work on an upcoming CD as well:
[asin]B083XV7L3L[/asin]
Le Marteau is a challenging work. I say the more recordings, the more varying interpretations, the better.
This seems like an excellent question for a resident Boulezian, Rafael (ritter).
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 08, 2020, 09:55:34 AM
Favorite recordings of Boulez sans Boulez? I have this one:
[asin]B006CC9GW8[/asin]
... and it's great. I posted an Amazon link as there are cheap copies for sale in the marketplace, I hope someone here gets one! Anyway, the Mémoriale for solo flute and ensemble is very good, as is the Dérive 1—Dérive 2, which I listened to yesterday, is a monster of a work. I cannot even begin to wrap my head around it. Very good, but it is just massive and twisted in so many ways.
What are some more good ones? I am interested in the Pascal Gallois with Le Marteau sans maître:
[asin]B01MTTJ40B[/asin]
... and I see Daniel Kawka will be conducting that work on an upcoming CD as well:
[asin]B083XV7L3L[/asin]
Le Marteau is a challenging work. I say the more recordings, the more varying interpretations, the better.
They're all interesting in one way or another, but then Boulez is one of those few composers from whom I get whatever gets released without hesitation ;).
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 06, 2020, 06:37:41 PM
What does everyone think of this documentary?
(https://www.euroarts.com/sites/default/files/styles/disk_cover_1000_/public/media_product/Euroarts%202058048%20pierre%20boulez%20cover.jpg?itok=CcIOdSm9)
Well, I already bought it. Looking forward to it even if it is mostly 'fluff'.
I finished watching this moments ago and I rather enjoyed it. It's nice seeing younger people so enthusiastic about not only 20th and 21st Century music, but Boulez's own music. It gave a nice insight into Boulez's conducting --- not really his own compositions of course, but hearing snippets of
Répons and
Notations I-IV was really wonderful. Also, seeing Pablo Heras-Casado was fantastic and especially getting conducting pointers from Boulez. 8)
Even though I'm basically a Boulez newbie, I felt compelled to write a short review on the DG box set via Amazon:
Pierre Boulez (1925-2016) is considered by many to be one of the most important musicians of the 20th Century. Not only did he have an incredible career as a composer, but his career as a conductor was equally as impressive (and many will remember him probably the most as a conductor). The irony here is Boulez didn't really want to be a conductor initially and when he did turn to conducting, he had no training whatsoever, which is even more impressive. As a composer, he was quite ahead of the curve and while he could be lumped in with the avant-garde of his generation like Stockhause, Ligeti, Berio, etc., it should be noted that as he aged, his music began to take on many other shapes and forms and while he was a Serialist early on, I would say that his particular compositional style, especially in his ensemble work like "Le Marteau sans maître", "Sur Incises", or "Pli selon pli", demonstrates that Debussy had an influence on him as well. For this listener, he's like a cross between the Second Viennese School (especially Webern), Stravinsky, and Debussy, but filter through his own unique and unmistakeable aesthetic.
While I won't even bother to go through the contents of this DG set (which is now sadly out-of-print), let me say if you're scared of post-WWII music or have an ambivalence towards it, let me say that I think Boulez can help open that door for you. His music isn't 'easy' but so much of it is dependent on fascinating timbres, textures, rhythms, harmonies, and atmosphere that it makes it much more welcoming than say a composer like Xenakis who is pretty much 'in-your-face' from the first measure (I'm generalizing here really to make a point). I would say that if you find this set, then don't hesitate to buy it. If you can't find it, then there are still some single issues of recordings from this set that are still in-print and should be easier to track down. Just try to get your hands on something and please make sure Boulez is conducting. It really doesn't get any more authentic than the man himself conducting his own music, especially when he's one of the greatest conductors that ever lived, but, after listening to a wide array of works from this set, I would say that he also was one of the great composers of the 20th Century.
Cross-posted from 'Listening' thread -
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 08, 2020, 06:23:45 PM
Boulez
Le Marteau sans maître
Hilary Summers (alto)
West-Eastern Divan Orchestra
Pierre Boulez
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/28947971658.jpg?1555936046)
I have several problems with this particular performance: 1. I don't like the up-close audio quality --- there's no sense of space whatsoever and 2. I don't think the performance was as inspired as the one Boulez conducted earlier for DG. I'll stick with the earlier performance.
I believe vers la flamme was asking me about this recording and this pretty much sums it up. I don't like the audio quality in this set in general as it's too 'in-your-face' and the notes simply don't have enough space in them. I'll stick with Boulez's own recordings of his music. Also, I'm just not impressed with this orchestra. Someone needs to teach them about dynamics and the importance of them, especially in this music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 09, 2020, 07:13:12 PM
Cross-posted from 'Listening' thread -
I believe vers la flamme was asking me about this recording and this pretty much sums it up. I don't like the audio quality in this set in general as it's too 'in-your-face' and the notes simply don't have enough space in them. I'll stick with Boulez's own recordings of his music. Also, I'm just not impressed with this orchestra. Someone needs to teach them about dynamics and the importance of them, especially in this music.
Noted. Hmm, that's too bad. I had high expectations of this recording. I'll still likely check it out at some point if I can find it for streaming.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 09, 2020, 07:13:12 PM
Cross-posted from 'Listening' thread -
I believe vers la flamme was asking me about this recording and this pretty much sums it up. I don't like the audio quality in this set in general as it's too 'in-your-face' and the notes simply don't have enough space in them. I'll stick with Boulez's own recordings of his music. Also, I'm just not impressed with this orchestra. Someone needs to teach them about dynamics and the importance of them, especially in this music.
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 10, 2020, 01:47:15 AM
Noted. Hmm, that's too bad. I had high expectations of this recording. I'll still likely check it out at some point if I can find it for streaming.
I'd share
John's view regrading the live
Le marteau... under the composer inlcuded in this set (it really does not supersede the studio recording with
Hillary Summers of several years earlier). But, the
Dérive II included (under
Barenboim) is a quite arresting performance IMHO. FWIW,
Barenboim and his West-Eastern Divan had been playing the work on tour (including Madrid, a concert I unfortunately missed) at around the time the recording was made, and do a spelndid job in it.
Quote from: ritter on February 10, 2020, 01:58:28 AM
I'd share John's view regrading the live Le marteau... under the composer inlcuded in this set (it really does not supersede the studio recording with Hillary Summers of several years earlier). But, the Dérive II included (under Barenboim) is a quite arresting performance IMHO. FWIW, Barenboim and his West-Eastern Divan had been playing the work on tour (including Madrid, a concert I unfortunately missed) at around the time the recording was made, and do a spelndid job in it.
Good day to you, Rafael. I didn't even listen to the Barenboim recording of
Dérive II simply because I haven't heard Boulez's performance (yet). I must get around to this at some point, but not before the orchestrated,
Notations, which have been hanging around in my mind since watching that Boulez documentary,
Inheriting the Future of Music.
Heard Sur Incises for the first time, always nice to find a Boulez gem. It was love at first listen :laugh:
Quote from: hvbias on February 17, 2020, 02:52:24 PM
Heard Sur Incises for the first time, always nice to find a Boulez gem. It was love at first listen :laugh:
Very cool work, indeed. Give
Incises a listen as well (if you haven't already).
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 17, 2020, 04:12:36 PM
Very cool work, indeed. Give Incises a listen as well (if you haven't already).
I did revisit it, for some reason this one still isn't of that much interest to me but I can't really articulate why. I do like all his piano sonatas.
Quote from: hvbias on February 19, 2020, 01:00:13 PM
I did revisit it, for some reason this one still isn't of that much interest to me but I can't really articulate why. I do like all his piano sonatas.
I'm the opposite. I don't really enjoy the piano sonatas and, if we're talking about solo piano, then the
Notations and
Incises definitely tops my list, but I just can't get into those sonatas.
Sur Incises, for me, is, as I've described before, like a Gamelan orchestra filtered through the Second Viennese School.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 19, 2020, 01:03:39 PM
I'm the opposite. I don't really enjoy the piano sonatas and, if we're talking about solo piano, then the Notations and Incises definitely tops my list, but I just can't get into those sonatas. Sur Incises, for me, is, as I've described before, like a Gamelan orchestra filtered through the Second Viennese School.
I am not sure why but when I hear Incises I keep wishing for an accompaniment like violin to go with it. This is very hard to describe why... even Piano Sonata 3 which is not that dissimilar stylistically seems to make sense on solo keyboard.
Well we're in agreement on Sur Incises, this will be a heavy rotation piece :laugh:
Quote from: hvbias on February 19, 2020, 01:10:07 PM
I am not sure why but when I hear Incises I keep wishing for an accompaniment like violin to go with it. This is very hard to describe why... even Piano Sonata 3 which is not that dissimilar stylistically seems to make sense on solo keyboard.
Well we're in agreement on Sur Incises, this will be a heavy rotation piece :laugh:
I need to listen to
Incises again. I haven't really spent a lot of time with Boulez's music, but quite enjoyed what I've heard in the DG box, although, again, I won't claim to be a great fan of those sonatas. I keep meaning to get around to the orchestral arrangement of
Notations, but I keep getting sidetracked and I've really been wanting to hear this work since watching Boulez conduct some of in a documentary about the Lucerne Festival Orchestra I watched many nights ago.
I finally gave the orchestral Notations a listen and, damn, this was great. It reminded me of a hybrid between the Second Viennese School, Stravinsky, and Bartók (especially in the frantic, but controlled rhythms used at various points). I'll definitely be revisiting this work soon.
The orchestral notations is the work in which Boulez finally and thoroughly learned how to orchestrate, an exeptional work.
Quote from: Uhor on February 20, 2020, 02:26:40 PM
The orchestral notations is the work in which Boulez finally and thoroughly learned how to orchestrate, an exeptional work.
He didn't know how to orchestrate prior to the
Notations? One of earliest works he composed for orchestra (but not strictly orchestra) was
Le Visage nuptial, although I could be wrong about this and have some dates mixed up.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 19, 2020, 01:15:12 PM
I need to listen to Incises again. I haven't really spent a lot of time with Boulez's music, but quite enjoyed what I've heard in the DG box, although, again, I won't claim to be a great fan of those sonatas. I keep meaning to get around to the orchestral arrangement of Notations, but I keep getting sidetracked and I've really been wanting to hear this work since watching Boulez conduct some of in a documentary about the Lucerne Festival Orchestra I watched many nights ago.
Have you heard Pollini play the second piano sonata? I found his interpretation so exceptional that I started to appreciate Boulez's sonatas much more after that. There are many recordings from skilled pianists but Pollini seems to really capture the atmosphere magnificently. Maybe by my own advice I haven't heard the right Incises :)
In a sort of weird coincidence I came across the Boulez Conducts Boulez and 20th Century box within a short time for reasonable amounts, so I'll be listening to a bunch of his music and others he has conducted for the first time.
Maybe not so weird, on more than one occasion I've overpaid for some rare item I never see for sale come up shortly afterward for less. A curse ::)
Quote from: hvbias on February 21, 2020, 03:39:33 AM
Have you heard Pollini play the second piano sonata? I found his interpretation so exceptional that I started to appreciate Boulez's sonatas much more after that. There are many recordings from skilled pianists but Pollini seems to really capture the atmosphere magnificently. Maybe by my own advice I haven't heard the right Incises :)
In a sort of weird coincidence I came across the Boulez Conducts Boulez and 20th Century box within a short time for reasonable amounts, so I'll be listening to a bunch of his music and others he has conducted for the first time.
Maybe not so weird, on more than one occasion I've overpaid for some rare item I never see for sale come up shortly afterward for less. A curse ::)
Well, I own the Boulez
Complete Works DG set and Pollini's performance of the 2nd
Piano Sonata is in this set. Yes, I agree the performance is exceptional, but I can't get onboard with the music. These piano sonatas are just impenetrable for me. I love solo piano music, but there has to be some kind of access point into the music for me and, unfortunately, I've found none in these works, but that's quite alright as I do like
Notations and
Incises. One cannot like everything one hears of course. :) Too bad you didn't buy the Boulez
Complete on DG when it was still in-print.
The box set in question:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71k74Au7VML._SL1400_.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 21, 2020, 06:36:38 AM
Well, I own the Boulez Complete Works DG set and Pollini's performance of the 2nd Piano Sonata is in this set. Yes, I agree the performance is exceptional, but I can't get onboard with the music. These piano sonatas are just impenetrable for me. I love solo piano music, but there has to be some kind of access point into the music for me and, unfortunately, I've found none in these works, but that's quite alright as I do like Notations and Incises. One cannot like everything one hears of course. :) Too bad you didn't buy the Boulez Complete on DG when it was still in-print.
The box set in question:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71k74Au7VML._SL1400_.jpg)
That is the one, not sure why I called it Boulez Conducts Boulez. I haven't cracked it open yet, still working my way through the big Boulez 20th Century box.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 20, 2020, 07:46:52 PM
He didn't know how to orchestrate prior to the Notations? One of earliest works he composed for orchestra (but not strictly orchestra) was Le Visage nuptial, although I could be wrong about this and have some dates mixed up.
I mean it in the same way Richard Strauss famously commented at the dress rehearsal for An Alpine Symphony's premiere that at last he had learned to orchestrate.
Quote from: hvbias on February 22, 2020, 03:24:09 PM
That is the one, not sure why I called it Boulez Conducts Boulez. I haven't cracked it open yet, still working my way through the big Boulez 20th Century box.
Very nice. 8)
I was very surprised to find this hour long interview with Boulez on Proust at the College de France, it's light, and amusing if you're interested in Proust. (In French)
https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/antoine-compagnon/seminar-2013-04-02-17h30.htm
Quote from: Mandryka on February 23, 2020, 08:06:41 AM
I was very surprised to find this hour long interview with Boulez on Proust at the College de France, it's light, and amusing if you're interested in Proust. (In French)
https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/antoine-compagnon/seminar-2013-04-02-17h30.htm
Most interesting, thanks for posting. It is strange to see how PB at 88 has some failings with his memory, but has so many interesting things to say, and despite his slower expression, the alertness of his mind shines through. Particularly illuminating his comments on
Wagner (which, unsurprisingly, show a deep understanding and love for his work). And (again unsurprisingly) how strong his contempt for
Reynaldo Hahn was... :D
Vulgarity
https://www.youtube.com/v/LTeyKKESvYw
Genius
https://www.youtube.com/v/rGH6zKayJcE
According to Boulez -- I'm inclined to agree.
Perhaps, but TBH neither of the versions you posted does justice to the pieces being performed. The Fauré with a blues singer à la française (more suited for the Bobino than the Salle Pleyel), the Hahn with a shrill soprano, in an atrocious arrangement for harp (and at breakneck speed). The Hahn is of course no masterpiece, but when well performed, is rather charming (with its languorous, habanera-like piano part).
https://www.youtube.com/v/o2h-AYcWZaM
Sorry to remain off-topic. :-[
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 20, 2020, 07:46:52 PM
He didn't know how to orchestrate prior to the Notations? One of earliest works he composed for orchestra (but not strictly orchestra) was Le Visage nuptial, although I could be wrong about this and have some dates mixed up.
I know this is a month late, but you're not wrong, though the final version of
Visage dates from after the first round of orchestral
Notations and shows the full experience that he had gained as a result.
Happy birthday to maestro Boulez...
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/01/07/obituaries/07BOULEZ-hp/07BOULEZ-hp-articleLarge-v3.jpg)
The greatest composer-conductor since Mahler? I say yes...
Who's listening to Boulez today...? So far I've listened to the piano Notations and now Le Marteau sans maître. I hope to hear Répons later in the day as well. And perhaps also the Piano Sonata No.2
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 26, 2020, 05:20:04 AM
Happy birthday to maestro Boulez...
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/01/07/obituaries/07BOULEZ-hp/07BOULEZ-hp-articleLarge-v3.jpg)
The greatest composer-conductor since Mahler? I say yes...
Who's listening to Boulez today...? So far I've listened to the piano Notations and now Le Marteau sans maître. I hope to hear Répons later in the day as well. And perhaps also the Piano Sonata No.2
Lots of Boulez here recently; Sur Incises, Messagesquisse, Images Pour Orchestre, Repons, Le Marteau sans Maitre just off the top of my head and many more. Very easily my favorite composer/conductor.
Bon anniversaire, M. Boulez!
The recording by Ralph van Raat of the early Prélude, toccata et scherzo is scheduled for release in May. It'll be fascinating to get to know a pre-Notations work, and one in which presumably (and given the title) Boulez was still under influences other than those that he retained for his first "acknowledged" compositions.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81k03HQyeiL._SX522_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71FY5L0WD3L._SX522_.jpg)
Quote from: ritter on March 26, 2020, 08:32:26 AM
Bon anniversaire, M. Boulez!
The recording by Ralph van Raat of the early Prélude, toccata et scherzo is scheduled for release in May. It'll be fascinating to get to know a pre-Notations work, and one in which presumably (and given the title) Boulez was still under influences other than those that he retained for his first "acknowledged" compositions.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81k03HQyeiL._SX522_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71FY5L0WD3L._SX522_.jpg)
Fascinating. Thanks for sharing! I will have to check it out for sure.
Quote from: ritter on March 26, 2020, 08:32:26 AM
Bon anniversaire, M. Boulez!
The recording by Ralph van Raat of the early Prélude, toccata et scherzo is scheduled for release in May. It'll be fascinating to get to know a pre-Notations work, and one in which presumably (and given the title) Boulez was still under influences other than those that he retained for his first "acknowledged" compositions.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81k03HQyeiL._SX522_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71FY5L0WD3L._SX522_.jpg)
I read this book last year, but I can't remember too much of what it showed of the
Prélude, toccata et scherzo. I'll have to listen when the disc appears. Why didn't they also include
Trois Psalmodies, I wonder?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51NinJpu79L._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Quote from: ritter on March 26, 2020, 08:32:26 AM
Bon anniversaire, M. Boulez!
The recording by Ralph van Raat of the early Prélude, toccata et scherzo is scheduled for release in May. It'll be fascinating to get to know a pre-Notations work, and one in which presumably (and given the title) Boulez was still under influences other than those that he retained for his first "acknowledged" compositions.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81k03HQyeiL._SX522_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71FY5L0WD3L._SX522_.jpg)
Thank you for mentioning this, looks like a very interesting release.
If anyone cares to mention some of their favorite solo piano releases from "lesser known" labels I'd love hear about them. I'm sure a lot of it flew under my radar during a time period when I wasn't keeping up with new releases.
Quote from: hvbias on March 27, 2020, 04:02:19 AM
...
If anyone cares to mention some of their favorite solo piano releases from "lesser known" labels I'd love hear about them. I'm sure a lot of it flew under my radar during a time period when I wasn't keeping up with new releases.
[Too lazy to go through the many pages of this thread, sorry if the post is redundant]
I recommend
(https://img.discogs.com/Y0OerrUOR7gr2bOnoeRAbotD5y4=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-5389864-1392166539-4639.jpeg.jpg)
Not at all recent, probably oop, doubtful about physical availability but it seems to be on Youtube. More Barraqué than Boulez, but Barraqué's Sonata is IMO a major work and this performance is far superior to Stefan Litwin's on the (otherwise highly recommendable) cpo
Complete Barraqué box.
Cross-posted from the WAYLTN thread.
Quote from: ritter on May 28, 2020, 07:48:07 AM
First listen (after much anticipation) to Pierre Boulez's early, withdrawn piano work Prélude, toccata et scherzo, played by Palph van Raat:
[asin]B085R72KBZ[/asin]
This substantial composition (27') is interesting in itself and also to understand where the Boulez we know (and who started to emerge immediately after WW2) came from. The title would indicate a kinship with Honegger (Boulez was studying with the composer's wife, Andrée Vaurabourg), and--as van Raat points out in his concise but illuminating booklet note--, the Swiss composer is present (along with Jolivet and, most particularly, Messaien) in the first movement. In the toccata, we get closer to the soundworld of the "real" Boulez (we shouldn't forget that the first two pianos sonatas are from just 2 and 4 years later, respectively), not so much in the material, but rather on how it is used and developed (the extremes of dynamics, the sudden "violent" outbursts). The closing scherzo is again IMO remiscent mainly of Messiaen, but somehow one notices a stylistic continuity with the first of the 12 notations (the work that follows on the CD, and which is Boulez's first acknowledged composition).
The playing by Mr. van Raat is beyond reproach, and the whole program of the CD is really enjoyable. None of the other pieces have enjoyed wide circulation, but some of them are really great (e.g., Debussy at his most tender in the late Les soirs illuminés par l'ardeur du charbon, Messaien at his most debussyesque in the 1934 Morceau de lecture à vue, Ravel as usual a goldsmith in the tiny Menuet in C sharp major). The inclusion of the solo piano movements from Messiaen's late Des canyons aux étoiles... perhaps is a little odd, but still fits in the bigger picture. Highly recommended!
Hurwitz can be too incendiary when he sets his mind to it:
https://www.youtube.com/v/h3VDGnxq8sk
I saw that. I even commented on his video that I'll take those CDs and he said I couldn't afford what he'd ask for them ;D
Ah, that was you. Very funny. 8)
Boulez vs Boulez vs Boulez; which Pli selon pli is your favorite? I have not heard the Erato but love the Columbia and the later DG about equally...
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81ti55QFT5L._AC_UY218_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71-ZAYxo2JL._AC_UY218_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51stDaPpH8L._AC_UY218_.jpg)
Are there any others I don't know about? I would love to hear one sans Boulez...
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 18, 2020, 07:44:05 AM
Boulez vs Boulez vs Boulez; which Pli selon pli is your favorite? I have not heard the Erato but love the Columbia and the later DG about equally...
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81ti55QFT5L._AC_UY218_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71-ZAYxo2JL._AC_UY218_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51stDaPpH8L._AC_UY218_.jpg)
Are there any others I don't know about? I would love to hear one sans Boulez...
If you want I'll send you some lives, including the first performance, Pli selon Pli evolved a bit I think. There's a memorable commercial recording of some of it with Maderna conducting,
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 18, 2020, 07:44:05 AM
Boulez vs Boulez vs Boulez; which Pli selon pli is your favorite?
The Erato (reissued on Warner Apex) is my favorite, as it features excellent digital sound, while still representing an earlier Boulez whose conducting had not become as weak and effete as on the DG recording. I'm hoping for a new recording eventually by a young and energetic conductor who might put some more fire in the work.
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 18, 2020, 07:44:05 AM
Boulez vs Boulez vs Boulez; which Pli selon pli is your favorite? I have not heard the Erato but love the Columbia and the later DG about equally...
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81ti55QFT5L._AC_UY218_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71-ZAYxo2JL._AC_UY218_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51stDaPpH8L._AC_UY218_.jpg)
Are there any others I don't know about? I would love to hear one sans Boulez...
FWIW, these were my comments from about a year ago regarding this issue:
Quote from: ritter on December 30, 2019, 01:51:31 PM
Well, the three recordings of Pli selon pli made by Boulez have their merits (disregarding the fact that they offer—slightly—different versions of the work, the composer having revised this piece—and many other of his works—over and over). The DG recording probably has the strongest vocal soloists in Christine Schäfer, and gets an ultra-refined treatment from the expert forces of the EIC (who have the music in their blood, so to speak).
The pioneering CBS/Sony with Halina Lukomska has a sense of discovery, of novelty to it, apparent in a rougher approach to the piece (which suits it perfectly well). The Erato falls somewhere in between, and in this occasion sounds to me much more "orchestral" and less chamber music-like than the other two (at least in Don, the first section). Phyllis Bryn-Julson is an adequate vocalist, but does seem to be stretching her resources to the limit in the first movement.
It would be nice to have a new recording of Pli selon pli, anyway. Matthias Pintscher would be great...
...
The Bastille Musique label has issued (release date is today, according to the jpc.de site) this 2-CD set of Boulez's piano music—2 hands and 2 pianos—, recorded at the Pierre Boulez Saal in Berlin by Michael Wendeberg and Nicolas Hodges.
(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4032324140137.jpg)
What makes this set interesting is that (according to the label's blurb), it includes first or alternative versions of movements or sections from Sonatas Nr. 1 and Nr. 3, and from Structures II.
Bastille Musique issued one of my 2020 "purchases of the year (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,30433.msg1337374.html#msg1337374)", the complete set of Luciano Berio's Chemins series, with high musical and production standards (albeit with a slightly odd packaging). Unfortunately, their distribution is not widespread; the new PB release does not seem to be listed on Amazon, and even at jpc (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/pierre-boulez-saemtliche-klavierwerke-constellation-miroir/hnum/10401767?lang=en) you get the notice " deliverable within one week (if available from supplier)". I've ordered it, and let's see if and when the order is fulfilled.
Quote from: ritter on January 08, 2021, 02:37:40 PM
The Bastille Musique label has issued (release date is today, according to the jpc.de site) this 2-CD set of Boulez's piano music—2 hands and 2 pianos—, recorded at the Pierre Boulez Saal in Berlin by Michael Wendeberg and Nicolas Hodges.
(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4032324140137.jpg)
What makes this set interesting is that (according to the label's blurb), it includes first or alternative versions of movements or sections from Sonatas Nr. 1 and Nr. 3, and from Structures II.
Bastille Musique issued one of my 2020 "purchases of the year", the complete set of Luciano Berio's Chemins series, with high musical and production standards (albeit with a slightly odd packaging). Unfortunately, their distribution is not widespread; the new PB release does not seem to be listed on Amazon, and even at jpc (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/pierre-boulez-saemtliche-klavierwerke-constellation-miroir/hnum/10401767?lang=en) you get the notice " deliverable within one week (if available from supplier)". I've ordered it, and let's see if and when the order is fulfilled.
Thank you for mentioning this, I'm sure I'll pick it up. I enjoyed the Berio Chemins as well and another release from them that was in my heavy rotation was Schulhoff's complete lieder.
In my experience if JPC has that status "deliverable within one week (if available from supplier)" they are able to get it as long as it isn't out of print.
I came across this fine series of Boulez talking about the Notations, there is no playlist but you'll find all of them on the channel.
https://www.youtube.com/v/NVjtz16fYqE
Quote from: hvbias on March 25, 2021, 01:48:09 PM
I came across this fine series of Boulez talking about the Notations, there is no playlist but you'll find all of them on the channel.
https://www.youtube.com/v/NVjtz16fYqE
Very cool, hvbias. 8) Thanks for sharing! I'll have to check these out. I love to listen to a composer talk about their music, especially when they're as articulate as Monsieur Boulez.
Pierre Boulez would have been 96 today! Will likely listen to Répons later, in this 1992 performance from the Salzburg Festival, with the birthday boy conducting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhQ2AZsK7Os
--Bruce
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61ccpA8PsBL._AC_SL1200_.jpg)
Enjoying this very much this morning, I guess it's partly a question of just liking Salome Haller's voice, though the unnamed flautist is very much my sort of style too.
Anyway searching for it on Qobuz I was surprised by the plethora of Marteaux there are now!
By the way, anyone like to hazard a guess at what it's all about? The marteau is what exactly? The music can hit hard expressively. I suppose Boulez is the master worker, the artisan, who's relinquished control of his hammer. Except he hasn't relinquished control . . .
I bought this disc for the Pierrot Lunaire which is quite wonderful. The two Improvisation sur mallarmé also really caught my attention. Would have loved to heard them record the full Pli selon pli
https://www.youtube.com/v/FygFpeEaof8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpATwj8SrZM
I was listening to Claude Helffer playing Boulez's Piano Sonata 3 on Youtube, and the remastered version has some strange clicking sounds on it, I can't recall anything like that as it would have stood out to like a sore thumb. I grabbed my CD from the 80s that came out on Astree and it sounds perfect. How bizarre.
https://youtu.be/KZp6BadYzBg
Cross-posted from the "Concerts" thread:
Quote from: ritter on February 14, 2023, 09:14:37 AMAfter having been on their waiting list for several weeks (these concerts are free, but you have to sign up on their web, and many people seem to be ready to apply for tickets as soon as they are made available —regardless of the repertoire and performers ::) ), the BBVA Foundation just awarded me two tickets for the concert tomorrow evening of the PluralEnsemble under Fabián Panisello performing a gorgeous programme: Stravinsky's Three Pieces for Clarinet, Berceuses du chat, and Three Songs from Shakespeare, and (in the second half) Boulez's Le Marteau sans maître :) . The alto soloist is Hillary Summers (who performed and recorded Le Marteau under the composer repeatedly).
Fabián Panisello is an Argentinian-Spanish composer-conductor, whose music I find to be a continuation of the "classic" avant-garde (he studied with, among others, Elliott Carter, Peter Eötvös and Luis de Pablo) and I enjoy very much. He founded the PluralEnsemble, which specialises in modern and avant-garde (i.e., more or less from Schoenberg to the present) and is very accomplished. Their concerts in Madrid, though, are rather "select" affairs, as they're sponsored by the aforementioned BBVA Foundation and held in the not too large covered inner courtyard of their HQ, the sumptuous Palacio del Marqués de Salamanca in downtown Madrid.
(https://s1.abcstatics.com/media/espana/2016/02/19/PALACIO%20DEL%20MARQUES%20DE%20SALAMANCA%20(2)._xoptimizadax--620x349.jpg)
(https://www.bbva.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/palacio-marques-de-salamanca-p-recoletos-10-madrid-768x615.jpg)
Quote from: ritter on February 16, 2023, 04:07:14 AMWell, what can I say, the concert last night was superb.
Fabian Panisello made a short, rather technical but impassioned and enthusiastic introduction of the works that were going to be performed, and then we got clarinettist Antonio Rapaz playing Stravinsky's Three Pieces most engagingly. Then came the Three Songs form William Shakespeare, little gems from the composer's "transitional" (towards serialism, that is) period, followed by the Berceuses du chat from the "Swiss period", with their wonderful accompaniment of three clarinets (despite their brevity, IMHO one of Igor Fedorovich's great achievements of the WW1 years).
And then, Le Marteau san maître! Like all music, I suppose, hearing this live is a far superior experience than on record, familiar as one may be with a work. In this case, the interplay between the six instrumentalists is more "logical" when the visual element is present and the flute and alto duet that is « L'Artisanat furieux » has an almost theatrical element to it. The performance by the PluralEnsemble was very convincing, with some (not necessarily unwelcome) rough edges here and there, and Panisello clearly was delighted to be preforming this landmark composition. Of the Instrumentalists, flautist Lope Morales should be singled out because of his top-notch contribution (I was struck yesterday by how well Boulez wrote for the flute -- he must have loved that instrument). And Hilary Summers' rich but very focused alto voice was wonderful in all three works she participated in.
I love Le Marteau from the first note to the last, but really the last movement, « Bel édifice et les pressentiments » – double, is one of its composer's graatest moments, and a high point of music from any period. The way the vocal line dissolves into humming (here Ms. Summers sang seated, so as to physically "disappear" as well) and then the melodic line is taken over by the flute, with interjections from the percussion and other instruments, is mesmerising (Panisello described it as a "representation of the ultimate dehumanisation of art").
(https://scherzo.es/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/PluralEnsemble.jpg)
Rafael, Such ecstatic review of Le Marteau could even spur me to try Boulez again... some time... ;D
Quote from: ritter on February 16, 2023, 04:16:55 AMa "representation of the ultimate dehumanisation of art")
Hmmmm...
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 16, 2023, 04:44:54 AMRafael, Such ecstatic review of Le Marteau could even spur me to try Boulez again... some time... ;D
It would be great if you did,
Olivier! :)
Bien amicalement,
Quote from: ritter on February 16, 2023, 04:16:55 AMCross-posted from the "Concerts" thread:
Have you seen this rehearsal recording?
https://soundcloud.com/plural-ensemble/sets/pierre-boulez-le-marteau-sans
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2023, 11:25:08 AMHave you seen this rehearsal recording?
https://soundcloud.com/plural-ensemble/sets/pierre-boulez-le-marteau-sans
No, I did not know about it. Thanks for the tip!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfTlo3mMyVQ&ab_channel=RyanPower
Jean-Louis Barrault playing Orestes (Aeschylus) with the young Boulez's music. I think this was a bit of a hit, they toured with it in Canada.
I was put on to it by this rather interesting article about Marteau
https://dokumen.tips/documents/boulez-s-knstlerroman-using-blocs-sonores-to-overcome-references-to-boulezas.html
Good comments on Domaines here
https://www.rogerheaton.uk/boulez-domaines
@Karl Henning Did you ever play it?
Quote from: Mandryka on September 29, 2023, 08:57:52 AMGood comments on Domaines here
https://www.rogerheaton.uk/boulez-domaines
@Karl Henning Did you ever play it?
No, I haven't.
Everything is Awesome! ;D
(https://www.radiofrance.fr/s3/cruiser-production/2023/12/bfe6662d-3529-4003-b440-090c970b058f/870x489_sc_sc_gbgbuqaayaakwh3.webp)
^ The scientific genius in full control of his beautifully ordered technology. I can see why Boulez wouldn't have been a fan of Tangerine Dream ;) .
(https://www.synthforbreakfast.nl/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/TD-with-moogs.jpg)
I finally tried Boulez recently by listening to his piano sonatas. I was surprised by how beautiful they were! He has a reputation as a challenging composer, but those were charming works. I'll try out more Boulez.
Quote from: DavidW on December 16, 2023, 08:36:11 AMI finally tried Boulez recently by listening to his piano sonatas. I was surprised by how beautiful they were! He has a reputation as a challenging composer, but those were charming works. I'll try out more Boulez.
The piano sonatas are his most challenging works, in my opinion. If you can handle those you should be well prepared for Pli selon pli, Répons, and Le marteau sans maître which have over the sonatas the benefit of extremely sumptuous orchestration/timbral characteristics.
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 17, 2023, 08:35:59 AMThe piano sonatas are his most challenging works, in my opinion. If you can handle those you should be well prepared for Pli selon pli, Répons, and Le marteau sans maître which have over the sonatas the benefit of extremely sumptuous orchestration/timbral characteristics.
One of my favorites and highly recommended:
Quote from: Cato on December 18, 2023, 05:15:01 AMOne of favorites and highly recommended:
Another great piece, which falls in the "extremely sumptuous" category :D
They did a Mashup with Pierrot and the Debussy Trio Sonata that I think is phenomenal. The original composers would have been either elated or furious or both.
Quote from: Uhor on December 18, 2023, 07:57:02 AMThey did a Mashup with Pierrot and the Debussy Trio Sonata that I think is phenomenal. The original composers would have been either elated or furious or both.
It would have been better to have done a mash-up with Domaines for oboe, horn and amplified guitar, since the instrumentation was a sort of homage to Debussy's unfinished sonata for oboe, horn, and harpsichord.
I'm a bit less enthusiastic about that mash-up than you.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 18, 2023, 08:15:41 AMIt would have been better to have done a mash-up with Domaines for oboe, horn and amplified guitar, since the instrumentation was a sort of homage to Debussy's unfinished sonata for oboe, horn, and harpsichord.
I'm a bit less enthusiastic about that mash-up than you.
Perhaps these are better for you?
There this one of solely Boulez short chamber I'd say complementary works:
And it turns out middle-late Boulez is perfectly compatible with late Messiaen:
Quote from: Brian on December 13, 2023, 07:09:24 AMsome possible tips on where to start listening to Boulez?
Cross-post, esp. for
@Brian My suggestions for three pieces to start with
Boulez in chronological order:
Le Marteau sans maître. It's not everyone's money, and in fact it fell out of and back into my own favor. I fell for it readily the first time I heard it, so maybe you will, too. And now that my own pendulum has re-swung, it's a firm fave again.
Rituel in memoriam Bruno Maderna. Atypical of the composer, as heretofore noted. Mightily strong piece.
Sur Incises. I don't know how the true
Boulez fans feel about various times when the composer fiddled with various scores, and I guess that my writing that indicates that my own fandom is somewhat at arm's length, but I find this an unalloyed success.
Quote from: Karl Henning on December 23, 2023, 12:09:10 PMSur Incises. I don't know how the true Boulez fans feel about various times when the composer fiddled with various scores, and I guess that my writing that indicates that my own fandom is somewhat at arm's length, but I find this an unalloyed success.
You know how a
bon mot about a piece you like can sometimes alter your appreciation of it? I've never been able to listen to
sur Incises since without recalling Samuel Andreyev's comment (in his Ferneyhough interview, IIRC) that this piece only has two kinds of material for its forty minutes: either quick driving rhythmic passages or more soupy, ambient music.
Quote from: CRCulver on December 23, 2023, 04:59:42 PMYou know how a bon mot about a piece you like can sometimes alter your appreciation of it? I've never been able to listen to sur Incises since without recalling Samuel Andeyev's comment (in his Ferneyhough interview, IIRC) that this piece only has two kinds of material for its forty minutes: either quick driving rhythmic passages or more soupy, ambient music.
I can hear the sneer in that remark, and I think I can promise that it will not color my hearing of the piece. (I'll put it to the test tomorrow.)
There was no sneer in Andreyev's remark. At least not to my ears. After all, Andreyev is sympathetic to high modernism. Moreover, Andreyev is not the only person to detect this feature of Boulez's music. I just came across this quotation by Jonathan Goldman (in Cagney's article on the early Grisey):
QuoteThe fundamental dichotomy which obtains in Boulez's work [. . .] opposes pulsation to resonance. [. . .] Boulez famously distinguished between "smooth" and "striated" time. An alternation between a pulsed, rhythmic conception of musical discourse and another, in which musical time is undifferentiated and continuous, remains the key to Boulez's sound world.
So if the dichotomy in
sur Incises is too plain to sustain interest over a forty minute work, that's a matter of taste, but a reasonable opinion.
Quote from: CRCulver on December 24, 2023, 04:11:17 PMThere was no sneer in Andreyev's remark. At least not to my ears. After all, Andreyev is sympathetic to high modernism. Moreover, Andreyev is not the only person to detect this feature of Boulez's music. I just came across this quotation by Jonathan Goldman (in Cagney's article on the early Grisey):
So if the dichotomy in sur Incises is too plain to sustain interest over a forty minute work, that's a matter of taste, but a reasonable opinion.
Good points.
Quote from: CRCulver on December 24, 2023, 04:11:17 PMThere was no sneer in Andreyev's remark. At least not to my ears. After all, Andreyev is sympathetic to high modernism. Moreover, Andreyev is not the only person to detect this feature of Boulez's music. I just came across this quotation by Jonathan Goldman (in Cagney's article on the early Grisey):
So if the dichotomy in sur Incises is too plain to sustain interest over a forty minute work, that's a matter of taste, but a reasonable opinion.
Let's assume, just for the sake of argument, that Boulez's distinction between smooth and striated time is equivalent to music with a pulse (or rhythm? - Goldman conflates the two) and music with no clear pulse/rhythm. Then isn't it inevitable that all music, at this level of abstraction, is made of passages of smooth and striated time? I mean - what would the third option be?
If the idea is that in Boulez there's
nothing more to the music than alternate passages of strongly and less strongly pulsated music, then that's a very strong claim - and a contentious one. Goldman says "the key". - deliberately vague!
Quote from: CRCulver on December 23, 2023, 04:59:42 PMmore soupy, ambient music [....]
This is what seemed like a sneer to me. A hostile listener might remark similarly about
Le sacre du printemps, "there are fast bits, there are slow bits." One could say that it is poetic justice that
Boulez, whose attitude was "any new music which I don't approve of is worthless," being the object of a not entirely dissimilar critique. At any rate, having now revisited
Sur Incises, I can confirm that I like it very well, and I stay by the recommendation, though of course, not everyone is going to (nor ought to) like all the things I like. But that's what drives one's recommendations, of course.
So many choices to celebrate the birthday boy, but for now and new to me, this sparkling reading of
Notations (1945, orch. 1980 and 1999), with Manfred Honeck and the Frankfurt Radio Symphony, recorded in 2015.
-Bruce
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81uVaGn6HKL._AC_SL1000_.jpg)
Nicolas Baldeyrou plays the solo version of Domaines.
There is nothing anyone can say to change my opinion of Sur Incises - it is not only among my favorite works by Boulez, but it is among my favorite works written in the classical idiom from any period.
The instrumentation alone I find extremely pleasing and the textures Boulez creates are rich and beautiful.
Currently listening to/watching Sur Incises (youtube with Ensemble Intercontemporain). Really enjoying it!
First time for me too.
Quote from: San Antone on March 30, 2024, 05:07:01 AMThere is nothing anyone can say to change my opinion of Sur Incises - it is not only among my favorite works by Boulez, but it is among my favorite works written in the classical idiom from any period.
The instrumentation alone I find extremely pleasing and the textures Boulez creates are rich and beautiful.
I don't know his works but I really enjoyed the video that I referenced of this work (again, new to me). Do you have a favorite recording/performance of it?
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 01, 2024, 02:25:22 PMI don't know his works but I really enjoyed the video that I referenced of this work (again, new to me). Do you have a favorite recording/performance of it?
I believe there is only one.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 01, 2024, 02:25:22 PMI don't know his works but I really enjoyed the video that I referenced of this work (again, new to me). Do you have a favorite recording/performance of it?
This is the one I listen to most often:
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8ZGf8dF/Screenshot-2024-04-01-at-6-48-20-PM.png)
There is one other recording, with Daniel Barenboim.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXq9y1xH/Screenshot-2024-04-01-at-6-50-33-PM.png)
Quote from: San Antone on April 01, 2024, 03:51:19 PMThis is the one I listen to most often:
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8ZGf8dF/Screenshot-2024-04-01-at-6-48-20-PM.png)
There is one other recording, with Daniel Barenboim.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXq9y1xH/Screenshot-2024-04-01-at-6-50-33-PM.png)
Thanks. I see that the top one is with the same ensemble that I listened to (and enjoyed) yesterday. :) It looks like Boulez himself is conducting it? By the way, how do you like the other works on it?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 02, 2024, 03:51:29 AMThanks. I see that the top one is with the same ensemble that I listened to (and enjoyed) yesterday. :) It looks like Boulez himself is conducting it? By the way, how do you like the other works on it?
PD
I generally enjoy all of Boulez's compositions, however, the other two works don't interest me as much as
Sur Incises.
Messagesquisse because the color of all cellos and
Anthèmes II because of the electronics.
I can't find the Barenboim. There is also a YouTube with Pintscher:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCQI6Wu3QxE&t=13s
I also heard Pintscher conduct Répons in New York about five years ago. He played the work twice, and reseated the audience so they'd have a different aural perspective. Very smart.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 02, 2024, 06:05:26 AMI can't find the Barenboim. There is also a YouTube with Pintscher:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCQI6Wu3QxE&t=13s
I also heard Pintscher conduct Répons in New York about five years ago. He played the work twice, and reseated the audience so they'd have a different aural perspective. Very smart.
Did a quick poking around and see that it's available as a download (PrestoC) and supposedly is available for purchase on iTunes...probably others.
If I understood it correctly, Barenboim has his own label (Peral Music). Was it ever released on CD? I'm not finding any listings on eBay. Again, this was a quick search though.
I also found an upload on youtube (several actually) of Messagesquisse too.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 02, 2024, 08:46:33 AMDid a quick poking around and see that it's available as a download (PrestoC) and supposedly is available for purchase on iTunes...probably others.
If I understood it correctly, Barenboim has his own label (Peral Music). Was it ever released on CD? I'm not finding any listings on eBay. Again, this was a quick search though.
I also found an upload on youtube (several actually) of Messagesquisse too.
AFAIK,
Barenboim's Peral label does not produce physical media.
I'm so glad you're finding things to enjoy in
Boulez's music,
PD. He's one of my all-time favourite composers and conductors.
If you liked
Sur incises, you definitely should give
Répons a try (on video preferably, because there's a strong spatial element to that work which with images can at least be grasped, if not really experienced).
Quote from: ritter on April 02, 2024, 10:09:18 AMAFAIK, Barenboim's Peral label does not produce physical media.
I'm so glad you're finding things to enjoy in Boulez's music, PD. He's one of my all-time favourite composers and conductors.
If you liked Sur incises, you definitely should give Répons a try (on video preferably, because there's a strong spatial element to that work which with images can at least be grasped, if not really experienced).
Is there a particular performance that you like of Répons? I can try and see whether or not I can borrow it through my library...if not, then maybe on yt?
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 02, 2024, 10:15:07 AMIs there a particular performance that you like of Répons? I can try and see whether or not I can borrow it through my library...if not, then maybe on yt?
There's only one "official" recording of the work, on CD:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71gKnLJ-PSL._SL1200_.jpg)
On YT, I'd say tour best bet is the recent performance with the Ensemble Intercontemporain conducted by
Matthias Pintscher (at the Paris Philarmonie):
The video quality of the ones conducted by the composer himself is usually (given their age) relatively poor, and the most recent one (from Lucerne in 2010) is of excerpts only. There's one magical one of a performance in the unlikely setting of an abandoned quarry near Avignon in 1988, but it seems not to be on YT.
Who would have expected this from a youngster who made his reputation in Rachmaninoff and Liszt?
(Look at 28:00.) It appears he has other songs to sing!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKRMMWXtYRs&list=PLu0Xym10Vivn8_Bvy8KnZ2zvfKE6aGUdc&index=18