Isn't it about time we had an Alfred Garyevich Schnittke thread?
Post your thoughts, recommendations and everything else Schnittke-related here! :D
Cheers,
Maciek
Oh, and here are 2 threads from the old forum (if you're aware of any more, please do post them!):
Schnittke's Progress (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,598.0.html)
Schnittke Symphony recommendation needed (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,12896.0.html)
Maciek
Piano Quintet is absolutely quinte(t)ssential
Quote from: MrOsa on April 29, 2007, 01:04:11 PM
Oh, and here are 2 threads from the old forum (if you're aware of any more, please do post them!):
Schnittke's Progress (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,598.0.html)
Schnittke Symphony recommendation needed (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,12896.0.html)
Maciek - I was about to check the old forum, myself, but thanks for the links - that first one has a lot of recommendations (I was posting back then in Oct '05!) -
DavidW & Paulb had quite a few posts, then.
For those interested in this composer, I would first suggest looking at those old threads linked - there are plenty of excellent recommendations already - but additional ones will be greatly appreciated - :) Dave
I have his Concerto grosso - it's an enjoyable yet crazy work.
The Requiem !!!!! 8)
Quote from: Don Giovanni on May 01, 2007, 02:08:54 AM
I have his Concerto grosso - it's an enjoyable yet crazy work.
Which one?
(I mean which one do you have - all the ones I've heard are enjoyable and crazy ;).)
Oh! The first concerto grosso. I'm not sure how crazy it is compared to the rest of Schnittke's output.
Quote from: MrOsa on April 29, 2007, 01:00:45 PM
Isn't it about time we had an Alfred Garyevich Schnittke thread?
Post your thoughts, recommendations and everything else Schnittke-related here! :D
I love the
Requiem . . . . . .
His dad's name was Gary?
Quote from: karlhenning on May 01, 2007, 10:58:34 AM
His dad's name was Gary?
Hopefully not
Грязный Гарри :o
(http://www.ozon.ru/multimedia/video_dvd_covers/1000099648.jpg)
Quote from: Drasko on May 01, 2007, 11:10:55 AM
Hopefully not Грязный Гарри :o
Crikey, that's funny!
And, check PM!
Quote from: karlhenning on May 01, 2007, 10:58:34 AM
His dad's name was Gary?
Yes. Schnittke's father was a Volga German, and his mother a Russian Jew.That--plus his spending some of his teens in the Russian sector of Vienna--might explain a lot of the cultural cross-cutting in his work.
I have trouble thinking of Gary as a German name, too, Edward! :-)
The only piece I have of Schniike (Piano Quintet) gives me the creeps. I love it, but it is certainly a rather macabre piece for my taste.
Quote from: Danny on May 01, 2007, 11:25:06 AM
The only piece I have of Schniike (Piano Quintet) gives me the creeps. I love it, but it is certainly a rather macabre piece for my taste.
"Macabre" can describe much of Schnittke's works, including portions of the
Requiem ( ::)) . . . . . . .
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 11:36:34 AM
"Macabre" can describe much of Schnittke's works, including portions of the Requiem ( ::)) . . . . . . .
A macabre requiem.......................I must hear!
The 3rd SQ & the 5th Symphony are probably my favorite AS works. Minnesang, sort of a medieval vocal pastiche is a very cool choral work as is the Choir Concerto
OK, here I go exposing myself: I've never heard the Quintet (I think)! :o :o :o
Of course, I'll try to change that as soon as possible (what does that mean exactly? it means: not very soon but hopefully sooner than that :P).
At least I have the Trio... What a relief. ;)
Quote from: Danny on May 01, 2007, 11:46:54 AM
A macabre requiem.......................I must hear!
Macabre, yes ... in places. Certainly highly dramatic. A
Dies Irae that's shouted angrily. And
highly eclectic (e.g. a full rock'n'roll drumkit in the
Credo.) But it's also a sincere lament for the death of the composer's mother, and that comes across too. Much beautiful music. My personal preference would be for the BIS recording, as slightly less ragged than e.g. the Classico/Tim one - but either is fine.
And then there's
Symphony No.2 "St Florian". The Bruckner connection is extremely tenuous - but, oddly, I have found it to make a more fitting Finale to the unfinished Bruckner #9 than some others (such as Bruckner's own
Te Deum, - or, indeed, the several "completions" in existence.) Rozhdestvensky is your man here: Polyansky doesn't seem (to my ears) to achieve the same sorts of resonances.
Quote from: Choo Choo on May 01, 2007, 01:49:45 PM
My personal preference would be for the BIS recording, as slightly less ragged than e.g. the Classico/Tim one - but either is fine.
That BIS recording is dynamite . . . . . .
Schnittke I love, but I can only take him in small doses, such is the draining effect he has on my psyche.
Peer Gynt is, IMHO, one of the greatest ballet scores of the 20th century. Now, I cannot comment on whether or not it is great for it's original purpose (i.e. the dancing, and in all honesty, I imagine not), but the music itself is a mammoth and pitch black effort and is a world away from Grieg's work, which in comparison to Schnittke's take on the story, is all butterflies, honey and puppies.
Other than that, my favourites are his 5th and 8th symphonies.
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 01:58:21 PM
That BIS recording is dynamite . . . . . .
...and it's coupled with a very good 4th Symphony, worth getting in its own right.
Quote from: The Notorious MOG on May 01, 2007, 02:02:04 PM
Peer Gynt is, IMHO, one of the greatest ballet scores of the 20th century. Now, I cannot comment on whether or not it is great for it's original purpose (i.e. the dancing, and in all honesty, I imagine not), but the music itself is a mammoth and pitch black effort and is a world away from Grieg's work, which in comparison to Schnittke's take on the story, is all butterflies, honey and puppies.
Seconded. I think
Peer Gynt is probably Schnittke's masterpiece.
Other great works to my mind: 8th symphony, viola, piano and 1st cello concertos, second violin sonata, piano quintet.
Okay, OKAY! No need to hammer it in! I'll get the Piano Quintet, I'll get the darn Piano Quintet!!!
;D
...and the
Requiem - don't forget the
Requiem!!!Quote from: Alfred Schnittke
The Requiem came into being in 1975 as an offshoot of another work - the Piano Quintet (1972-1976), which is dedicated to the memory of my mother, Maria Vogel. Originally I wanted to write a movement in the quintet which should summarise in instrumental form all the parts of a requiem, and I composed all the themes for this. Afterwards, however, I found that the themes had an exclusively vocal character and so I decided to keep them back for a future work. At this time I was commissioned to write incidental music to Schiller's Don Carlos. I composed this in the form of a requiem celebrated invisibly in the background of the events on stage; naturally, though, I also considered the possibility of concert performance.
The Concerto for Piano and Strings is a fine, striking piece, and I notice this excellent recording with Rozhdestvensky conducting and pianist Victoria Postnikova has been reissued at a lower price. The disc includes an excellent Concerto for Piano Four Hands, with Irena Schnittke joining Postnikova.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A16KB2R5L._AA240_.jpg)
--Bruce
Quote from: Drasko on April 29, 2007, 02:03:27 PM
Piano Quintet is absolutely quinte(t)ssential
I just recently was inspired by Schnittke's music, could you please make a reccomendation recording-wise for that particular work,
Drasko?
Quote from: bhodges on May 10, 2007, 11:48:27 AM
The Concerto for Piano and Strings is a fine, striking piece, and I notice this excellent recording with Rozhdestvensky conducting and pianist Victoria Postnikova has been reissued at a lower price. The disc includes an excellent Concerto for Piano Four Hands, with Irena Schnittke joining Postnikova.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A16KB2R5L._AA240_.jpg)
Looks very nice,
Bruce! If only I could believe I might find it at Borders ;D
Quote from: MrOsa on May 01, 2007, 03:12:07 PM
Okay, OKAY! No need to hammer it in! I'll get the Piano Quintet, I'll get the darn Piano Quintet!!!
;D
Spoken like a gentleman,
Maciek! :)
Schnittke's piano concerto sounded very interesting to me, at least the parts I heard of it in this very good BBC program (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/pip/cb4eb/). I'd definitely recommend listening to it, although it unfortunately does not contain the full performance of the work at the end.
I'm interested in hearing the entire work now, so for those who know how do the following two recordings compare:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A16KB2R5L._AA240_.jpg)
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WRY91GXWL._AA240_.jpg)
And in the latter, how does the account of the coupled Requiem compare to this one on BIS:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/21FYs5fqv7L._AA130_.jpg)
A great Naxos CD : Cello concerto + Cello sonata.
You absolutely need to have the quartets if you don't.
Quote from: quintett op.57 on May 25, 2007, 12:51:36 AM
You absolutely need to have the quartets if you don't.
Agreed. The quartets (three at the time) were my introduction to Schnittke. Back in the late 1980s, the Kronos Quartet did three concerts here, with one quartet on each evening's program, and after the first night I couldn't
wait to hear the others. I had never heard anything like them. The Kronos' recordings of the complete set are excellent, but by now there are probably a number of other good versions of the individual quartets. The Alban Berg Quartet has an excellent CD of Schnittke's
Fourth, coupled with Rihm's
Fourth String Quartet.
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/270/277785.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/21/d8/f542b220dca042c41e808010._AA240_.L.jpg)
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on May 25, 2007, 07:24:32 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/21/d8/f542b220dca042c41e808010._AA240_.L.jpg)
a new CD on my wishlist!
Quote from: Haffner on May 11, 2007, 03:48:24 AM
I just recently was inspired by Schnittke's music, could you please make a reccomendation recording-wise for that particular work, Drasko?
This one is very good:
http://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-Chamber-Music-Alexander-Ivashkin/dp/B00004YYQV (http://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-Chamber-Music-Alexander-Ivashkin/dp/B00004YYQV)
I recently got Serov/Kovalenko/Baev/Popov/Timofeev on Northern Flowers but haven't given it decent listen yet. Also Alexei Lubimov/Keller Quartet on ECM had great reviews, haven't heard it myself but Lubimov is usually excellent.
Quote from: Drasko on May 25, 2007, 01:05:58 PM
This one is very good:
http://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-Chamber-Music-Alexander-Ivashkin/dp/B00004YYQV (http://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-Chamber-Music-Alexander-Ivashkin/dp/B00004YYQV)
I recently got Serov/Kovalenko/Baev/Popov/Timofeev on Northern Flowers but haven't given it decent listen yet. Also Alexei Lubimov/Keller Quartet on ECM had great reviews, haven't heard it myself but Lubimov is usually excellent.
This should make Harry feel good....
If you can get Kremer-Grindenko-Bashmet-Georgian-Smirnov on Melodiya, that blows away any other Piano Quintet recording I've heard.
Naturally, it's OOP. Can't have truly great recordings of modern masterpieces cluttering up the catalogue, can we?
And another great-sounding event next fall, on Wednesday Nov. 7, in New York: the U. S. premiere of Schnittke's Symphony No. 9, reconstructed by Alexander Raskatov, with Dennis Russell Davies conducting. Davies conducted the world premiere in Dresden earlier this month -- article here (http://www.sikorski.de/en/frameloader.html?frame=http%3A//www.sikorski.de/articles/article1236.html) -- and in New York will lead the Juilliard Orchestra.
November 7, 2007
Avery Fisher Hall
Juilliard Orchestra
Dennis Russell Davies, Conductor
Singers TBA
Haydn: Symphonia Concertante
Schnittke: Symphony No. 9 (U.S. premiere)
Raskatov: Nunc dimittis (In memoriam Alfred Schnittke, U.S. premiere)
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on June 26, 2007, 02:46:35 PM
And another great-sounding event next fall, on Wednesday Nov. , in New York7: the U. S. premiere of Schnittke's Symphony No. 9, reconstructed by Alexander Raskatov, with Dennis Russell Davies conducting. Davies conducted the world premiere in Dresden earlier this month -- article here (http://www.sikorski.de/en/frameloader.html?frame=http%3A//www.sikorski.de/articles/article1236.html) -- and in New York will lead the Juilliard Orchestra.
November 7, 2007
Avery Fisher Hall
Juilliard Orchestra
Dennis Russell Davies, Conductor
Singers TBA
Haydn: Symphonia Concertante
Schnittke: Symphony No. 9 (U.S. premiere)
Raskatov: Nunc dimittis (In memoriam Alfred Schnittke, U.S. premiere)
--Bruce
Hopefully this completion will work better than the Rozhdestvensky one.
I heard it, and it was a great disappointment: confused and incoherent (and patching in bits from other Schnittke pieces at various points). Apparently the Schnittke family fell out with Rozhdestvensky after the premiere, so I guess their opinion was similar.
Lately I have listened again to quite of bit of Schnittke, after having taken a long break from the composer's music – at some point at the time when avantgarde (Stockhausen, Boulez, Carter, Xenakis, Ligeti, Mawell-Davies, Rihm etc.) was new to me, I had started to find him too conservative (there was only a brief episode in 2004 where I listened to and loved again the 6th symphony). Here are a few of my impressions:
String Trio (1985):
Previously I had found to be one of the weaker works – yet I had heard it in the car on Harvard radio the other day (I live in the Boston area), and I was surprised how striking on that occasional listening the textures really were, and then I decided to put on the CD at home. Already the first few bars feature breathtaking harmonies. Whenever the music threatens to die down, the composer consistently comes up with solutions as what to do next that are unusually elegant and imaginative. Very solid and varied thematic development; I have always found this a strong point with this composer. Now I find the string trio compelling music.
Historia von D. Johann Fausten (1991/94):
This opera shows Schnittke's effortless prowess with vocal expression. Vocal writing tends to be one of the more problematic, weaker points of avantgarde composition, where it often leans toward strain and/or boring one-dimensionality and indistinctiveness. Some composers are notable exceptions, such as Stockhausen and Rihm, whose vocal writing actually tends to be among the strongest aspects of their compositional output. Yet Schnittke's vocal writing is strong as well. It switches naturally between atonality and tonality, and his "polystilism" in that respect is so unforced and unobtrusive that at least I only notice it when consciously reflecting upon the music. There are, of course, the exceptions where stylistic references are all too (intentionally) obvious.
Cello Concerto # 2 (1990):
This had always been one of my favorites, and did not disappoint me this time either. That opening theme of 12 notes has always struck me as particularly visceral, and I find very successful how the composer treats it in the first movement and has it come back at select places in the second one. The switch from motivic to mainly, rather nervous, gestural language in the second mvmt. is also satisfying and exciting. The ensuing slow movement features beautiful invention. The fourth movement opens in a thrilling manner when the theme bounces from one orchestral group to another, and the final movement, that slow passacaglia, is simply unbelievable in its beauty and complex treatment of the theme and deviating gestures. Like the CD booklet (Rostropovich, Ozawa, London Symphony on Sony) puts it well about the recitative of the cello: "at times it progresses thematically, at times it only reacts spontaneously". The constant switching between these options is well judged and makes for a gripping listening experience. There are breathtaking timbral textures in this concerto that would do any avantgarde composer proud.
Viola concerto (1985):
Also here striking timbres are found, and the way musical tension is built is exciting. Thematic treatment is very inventive. Unlike the less polystilistic above works, this music makes obvious references to nostalgic and kitschy realms, but in my view in a brilliant manner. Certainly the "devil's dance" at the end of the second movement is over the top, but how good that sounds and how well the build-up to this passage is done!
What always has drawn me to Schnittke's music is that, next to the "romantic expression", his music always works convincingly on the level of "absolute" music. The expressive tension is always founded on a compelling musical tension, and the musical narrative is practically always coherent. Often I am so immersed in the inner logic and power of the musical development that I forget about the emotional expression.
When I was introduced to the avantgarde in 1999 I basically forgot to listen to Schnittke. Now I realize that I was foolish to do so; in fact I find him still, or again, one of the best composers of the last 50 years, and I also find that I was not at all wrong to have been so immersed in his music from 1990-1999: his music is as good as to deserve it.
Most interesting, Al!
Great post, Al. His music is "wearing well" to my ears; his innovations don't sound dated, as I thought they might over time. I wish more of his work would show up in concerts, and that still isn't happening. All of those works you cite are well worth exploring and getting to know, and certainly repay the time investment.
The Viola Concerto, in particular, is one of the best concertos for that instrument. If you haven't seen the DVD of Yuri Bashmet performing it (with Gergiev and Vienna), do check it out!
--Bruce
I don't know much about this composer, is he tonal? Hard to listen to for newbies? 'Cause I get lost at most 20th/21st century stuff...
Quote from: Bonehelm on August 22, 2007, 10:03:40 PM
I don't know much about this composer, is he tonal? Hard to listen to for newbies? 'Cause I get lost at most 20th/21st century stuff...
Sometimes, sometimes not. And very often he's both tonal and atonal in the same work. It's all a bit post-modern. ;)
Quote from: edward on August 22, 2007, 10:45:49 PM
Sometimes, sometimes not. And very often he's both tonal and atonal in the same work. It's all a bit post-modern. ;)
Wow, that must be harsh on my young ears :)
Just notice that Berkshire has no fewer than four versions of the Piano Quintet. I have heard all but the first one, but I imagine the Borodins are quite good, too. The last three are superb.
Schnittke, String Quartet #3; Piano Quintet. Mahler / Schnittke, Piano Quartet. (Ludmilla Berlinsky, piano. Borodin String Quartet. Total time: 66')
Add to cart | Price: $ 7.99 | Country: GERMANY | D/A code: Digital | Code: 7590402 | BRO Code: 134229 | Label: VIRGIN
Genre: Chamber Music
Schnittke, Piano Trio {1992}; Piano Quintet {1972-1976}. (Barbican Piano Trio w.Jan Peter Schmolck, violin & James Boyd, viola. Total time: 57'03')
Add to cart | Price: $ 5.99 | Country: ENGLAND | D/A code: Digital | Code: BBM 1093 | BRO Code: 129014 | Label: BLACK BOX
Genre: Chamber Music
Schnittke, Piano Quintet; 3 Madrigals for Soprano & 5 Instruments; Serenade for Clarinet, Violin, Double Bass, Percussion & Piano; String Trio. (Capricorn Ensemble)
Add to cart | Price: $ 6.99 | Country: ENGLAND | D/A code: Digital | Code: CDA 66885 | BRO Code: 124101 | Label: HYPERION
Genre: Chamber Music
Schnittke, Piano Quintet {w.Gary Graffman, piano}. Shostakovich, String Quartet #3. (All w.Moscow String Quartet)
Add to cart | Price: $ 5.99 | Country: AMERICA | D/A code: Analogue | Code: FAC 9804-2 | BRO Code: 120555 | Label: FINER ARTS CLASSICAL
Genre: Chamber Music
--Bruce
Quote from: Bonehelm on August 23, 2007, 09:35:50 PM
Wow, that must be harsh on my young ears :)
please try the 1st cello sonata at least
Quote from: Bonehelm on August 22, 2007, 10:03:40 PM
I don't know much about this composer, is he tonal? Hard to listen to for newbies? 'Cause I get lost at most 20th/21st century stuff...
they have some free stuff on:
http://www.classicalarchives.com
you have to register, but it's easy. Also, he has quite a bit on youtube.
Quote from: greg on August 24, 2007, 10:31:01 AM
they have some free stuff on:
http://www.classicalarchives.com
you have to register, but it's easy. Also, he has quite a bit on youtube.
Alright thanks. I'm hearing his cello sonata right now. ;)
Quote from: Bonehelm on August 24, 2007, 10:29:54 PM
Alright thanks. I'm hearing his cello sonata right now. ;)
sweeeeeet
and with your avatar it's almost like i'm talking to a hot lady who is enjoying my own musical interests, wow...... that's like magical, really :-X
Quote from: greg on August 25, 2007, 07:23:47 PM
sweeeeeet
and with your avatar it's almost like i'm talking to a hot lady who is enjoying my own musical interests, wow...... that's like magical, really :-X
rofl...keep reminding yourself, you're talking to the "racist" bonehead, not the hot lady! :D
Just got the string quartets, played by Kronos, well needless to say being a DSCH i love this!!!!
Quote from: The Emperor on January 08, 2008, 04:11:46 PM
Just got the string quartets, played by Kronos, well needless to say being a DSCH i love this!!!!
Strange, considering the Kronos recording is dreadful. Try the Tale (more virulence and power) or the Lark (greater detail and better sound quality).
Well i haven't heard any other versions so i can't compare, i don't think the sound quality is bad, but if this is the worst i can only imagine how it is the best.
remind me to post some thoughts here, if i can eventually sort them out. In short, i think i've found a new top 5 favorite composer! 0:) 0:) 0:)
what's up with this site:
http://www.alfredschnittke.com/
???
here's a link with 5 min of his 9th:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/arts/music/07symp.html
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 09, 2008, 12:32:07 PM
what's up with this site:
http://www.alfredschnittke.com/
???
It seems to be something of a conceptual art project, by Nathan Beach, a web designer who apparently lives near Dallas, Texas. I found it awhile back and thought it was fun, not to mention a pretty fair translation of Schnittke's style into visual terms.
http://www.nathanbeach.com/about.html
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on January 09, 2008, 12:42:58 PM
It seems to be something of a conceptual art project, by Nathan Beach, a web designer who apparently lives near Dallas, Texas. I found it awhile back and thought it was fun, not to mention a pretty fair translation of Schnittke's style into visual terms.
http://www.nathanbeach.com/about.html
--Bruce
ummmm ok
i don't think it works, though, it's not dark enough for one.... and there's too much random stuff. lol
I found this on Beach's site:
"An artistic tribute to the late great Russian-German composer, Alfred Schnittke. Many thanks to B. A. Eisemann for introducing me to Schnittke while driving the back roads of the 75080 with the windows down. I really wasn't meaning to cause any negative controversy with this web site, but a few people left some unpleasant comments in the guestbook (now removed from the domain). However, I think Alfred would like the site. I was in Hamburg -- completely coincidentally -- the day he died. I hope people understand that Schnittke Is Everywhere™."
He seems to be espousing a philosophy, rather than summing up the composer, like some kind of "Schnittke for President" campaign. ;D
--Bruce
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 08, 2008, 07:04:18 PM
Strange, considering the Kronos recording is dreadful. Try the Tale (more virulence and power) or the Lark (greater detail and better sound quality).
I agree, especially on the Lark.
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 09, 2008, 12:52:29 PM
ummmm ok
i don't think it works, though, it's not dark enough for one.... and there's too much random stuff. lol
Greg, I get the feeling you're at
least as "Metal" as I am... ;) ;D?
I know the Tale recording, but I like the Kronos as well (and it certainly isn't "dreadful").
Quote from: Al Moritz on January 10, 2008, 01:12:55 PM
I know the Tale recording, but I like the Kronos as well (and it certainly isn't "dreadful").
The Kronos has done a wonderous recording of these modern masterpieces.
"too much random stuff".
Schnittke speaks a strange language, these certainly are not like any other sq style. Either you get Schnittke, or you are left in the dark, there's little middle ground here.
I love almost all things by Schnittke.
Quote from: Haffner on January 10, 2008, 01:01:38 PM
Greg, I get the feeling you're at least as "Metal" as I am... ;) ;D?
maybe so ;D
after listening to stuff like the 2nd and 3rd symphonies, Piano Concerto, 1st 2 Violin Sonatas, and 1st Concerto Grosso, i feel this is another composer i'll be strongly addicted to.....
his String Quartets, Requiem, 4th Symphony, Peer Gynt, 1st Symphony, a couple others is the stuff i've mainly heard for the last couple of years, and the only one out of those i really love is the 1st symphony. But then i listen to the above-mentioned music and WOW! it's like the style of the 1st Symphony, except possibly even better!
Symphonies 6, 7, and 8, actually aren't that bad either...... the whole deal with his late style is that there's not too much technique going on, it's more about mood and you have to feel the mood to keep from being bored to death.
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 11, 2008, 05:19:00 AM
the whole deal with his late style is that there's not too much technique going on, it's more about mood and you have to feel the mood to keep from being bored to death.
Excellent insight, and I agree. I also apply this to certain other composers as well. Fill in the blanks.
I've only heard, or should I write seen, one of his pieces: Moz-art a la Haydn. Fun, dramatic (with some arresting work from the 2nd cellist come lightmaster, but only a divertimento.
Quote from: ????? (Greg) on January 11, 2008, 05:19:00 AM
Symphonies 6, 7, and 8, actually aren't that bad either...... the whole deal with his late style is that there's not too much technique going on, it's more about mood and you have to feel the mood to keep from being bored to death.
I listen to Symphonies 6 and 7 structurally and in terms of musical tension that is produced, and it's riveting. Yes, the mood is there, but it's not what makes the music addictive to me.
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 11, 2008, 05:19:00 AM
Symphonies 6, 7, and 8, actually aren't that bad either...... the whole deal with his late style is that there's not too much technique going on, it's more about mood and you have to feel the mood to keep from being bored to death.
I'd agree about technique, but not about mood: the late symphonies to me are simply an attempt to write a music without any of the filler that is usually present, so all the essential material is there, but the harmonies are stripped down, bridging passages are often replaced by periods of silence, the contrapuntal writing is largely elided and so on. To me, one of the key things about these works is to listen to them in the context of what they "should" be; that's where their radicalism comes in. (I'd lke to have heard the original version of the 6th symphony, which apparently is even more extreme than the final version, and has several lengthy passages that are simply silent.)
I think the influence of late Nono is key to these works: I believe Schnittke is writing without the filler because he saw how, in late Nono, the primary driver of musical tension is the alternation between simple material and silence, and he wanted to see if he could build a style which did the same thing in a tonal context. I'm not sure he always succeeds in this, but where he does the results are intriguing.
I hit the wrong button on an online purchase a while back and now have a second copy of Schnittke's Concerto Grosso4/Symphony5 coupled with Pianissimo für Grosses Orchester (Järvi and Gothenburg); still shrink-wrapped. Free to anyone who wants it. Preference given to the young and destitute. PM me.
Sarge
EDIT: We have a winner....not so young, but he assures me he's destitute ;D
Quote from: paulb on January 10, 2008, 04:49:40 PM
The Kronos has done a wonderous recording of these modern masterpieces.
"too much random stuff".
Schnittke speaks a strange language, these certainly are not like any other sq style. Either you get Schnittke, or you are left in the dark, there's little middle ground here.
I love almost all things by Schnittke.
Hey, Paul. Good to see you here again. Don't be a stranger.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2008, 07:06:00 AM
Preference given to the young and destitute. PM me.
I'll keep my grubby paws off the PM button, then. :)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2008, 07:07:08 AM
Hey, Paul. Good to see you here again. Don't be a stranger.
Sarge
Yes will do. thanks.
I;'ve been over at amazon last 3 months, cool place, get to say what i want, no snides, no fear from back attacks.
Schinttke is not all that easy to become acquainted with, his music requires a bit of attention and time. Of all my CM experiences , by far Schnittke has proven the most challenging. So newbies don't toss that Schnittke disc just yet.
I sold off the 4 vc;'s Kremer, didn't click, except the 4th. Anyway sold it last yr for $30, now there is only 1 listing on amzon, $200.
I heard the Kagan/Live Classics in the 3rd, I like this vc.
I order the 4th on amzon, arriving from germany anyday now, back with Kremer but this time has the great russian conductor Rozhdestvensky. I'm sure to be blown away this time.
I'll try for the 1,2 vc's in the future.
btw everyone head over to their recording of Schnittke's cello concerto 2/Ivashkin/Chandos. Schnittke never rarely fails to disappoint. But you need to have the mind that can grasp his forms, otherwise you are left in the dark.
Quote from: paulb on January 11, 2008, 08:15:48 AM
Yes will do. thanks.
I;'ve been over at amazon last 3 months, cool place, get to say what i want, no snides, no fear from back attacks.
Well, I can't promise you won't be attacked again here but I hope it doesn't deter you posting. You have very individual, even idiosyncratic views about CM and you have to expect some negative reactions. However, I hope the discussion and debate stay civilized. I joined the forum shortly after you left it two years ago. I noticed there was real regret that you'd left, even among those who taunted you the most. You were liked, Paul, even if they didn't agree with everything you said. The Pettersson thread on the old forum was one of the longest ever.
Quote
I sold off the 4 vc's Kremer, didn't click....I order the 4th on amzon, arriving from germany anyday now, back with Kremer but this time has the great russian conductor Rozhdestvensky. I'm sure to be blown away this time.
I don't know the violin concertos at all but I do own Rozh's recording of the Viola and First Cello Concertos. Very nice indeed.
Sarge
Quote from: edward on January 11, 2008, 06:57:19 AM
I'd agree about technique, but not about mood: the late symphonies to me are simply an attempt to write a music without any of the filler that is usually present, so all the essential material is there, but the harmonies are stripped down, bridging passages are often replaced by periods of silence, the contrapuntal writing is largely elided and so on. To me, one of the key things about these works is to listen to them in the context of what they "should" be; that's where their radicalism comes in. (I'd lke to have heard the original version of the 6th symphony, which apparently is even more extreme than the final version, and has several lengthy passages that are simply silent.)
I think the influence of late Nono is key to these works: I believe Schnittke is writing without the filler because he saw how, in late Nono, the primary driver of musical tension is the alternation between simple material and silence, and he wanted to see if he could build a style which did the same thing in a tonal context. I'm not sure he always succeeds in this, but where he does the results are intriguing.
knowing that helps me understand his late style a lot better! ;D
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2008, 09:01:16 AM
Well, I can't promise you won't be attacked again here but I hope it doesn't deter you posting. You have very individual, even idiosyncratic views about CM and you have to expect some negative reactions. However, I hope the discussion and debate stay civilized. I joined the forum shortly after you left it two years ago. I noticed there was real regret that you'd left, even among those who taunted you the most. You were liked, Paul, even if they didn't agree with everything you said. The Pettersson thread on the old forum was one of the longest ever.
I don't know the violin concertos at all but I do own Rozh's recording of the Viola and First Cello Concertos. Very nice indeed.
Sarge
Glad others here finally came around to Pettersson. I think over the next 2 decades his fan base will grow, maybe as big as Elliot Carter's, but maybe not.
I foresee these 5 composers gaining in recognition in the next 2 decades, Pettersson, Schnittke, Carter, Hartmann, and my latest discovery from Youtube Pierre Boulez, which I have no cds as yet.
These 5 I feel will be better known and deserve the recognition, above the countless names in late 20th C music.
I don't expect much trouble here, now that I will be ck in only sporadically.
The forum thugs who like to surpress free speech will have to catch me if they can.
HA!
Besides I only plan to post on 4 topics, I'll be Ok, Pettersson, Carter, Schnittke, and Hartmann if he has a topic here. Most who are fond of these composers all have good spirits.
Kindly
Paul
Quote from: paulb on January 11, 2008, 11:56:11 AM
I don't expect much trouble here, now that I will be ck in only sporadically.
The forum thugs who like to surpress free speech will have to catch me if they can.
HA!
Kindly
Paul
just do what Sean does, register and post for awhile (but not the crazy stuff he posts), deregister, and so on again and again....
btw, nice to have you back for a little bit, Paul 8)
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 11, 2008, 11:58:57 AM
just do what Sean does, register and post for awhile (but not the crazy stuff he posts), deregister, and so on again and again....
btw, nice to have you back for a little bit, Paul 8)
Thanks Greg. Hope all are in good health. More than i can say for the "ciity" of "new" Orleans. Katrina may be long gone in one sense, but the winds seem not to let up. Streets with no man hole covers so cars can drive their front wheel in, and no cones to let you know "look out you are about to drive in man hole".
This hole is out my back door, been there since Katrina. No man hole cover!!! just barely off the middle of the street. Someone stuck a board in the 15 ft sewer hole for some forwaring\. so far everyone has avoid the 2 yr hole.
and many more horrors.
Paul
i can imagine driving into a huge whole there..... my parents would be like, "you gotta watch out for potholes!"
"i couldn't see it..."
"that's no excuse..." ;D
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 11, 2008, 12:11:58 PM
i can imagine driving into a huge whole there..... my parents would be like, "you gotta watch out for potholes!"
"i couldn't see it..."
"that's no excuse..." ;D
:D
Yeah this one sucks in the entire front wheel system = car totaled. In one pothole.
You can see all the way down to the bottom of the sewer as the water flows through the sytem.
Heck on my street a Hummer :o has to dodge one other pot hole, or else he;ll need front end work., and thats not exaggerating!
One street the entire block of 1/4 mile is all pot hole, you have to drive on the side by the grass to pass!!
With no gov in sight.
Mayor 'where the hell is he" Nagin, disappears all the time.
Help us Washington, we need billions more!!! For ever.
i guess your state lacks all of the hard working Mexicans all of the other southern states have ;D
"Fill pothole?"
"Yep, that's the job"
"5 dollars?"
"Yep"
"Gracias!"
So I've been in touch with Nathan Beach, who designed that Schnittke site (http://www.alfredschnittke.com/), and he says there is some of his music in the new film, There Will Be Blood, but he can't figure out exactly what. The soundtrack is mostly by Jonny Greenwood (of Radiohead) but apparently there is other music, too. If anyone who has seen the film has any ideas, please post.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on January 16, 2008, 07:16:37 AM
So I've been in touch with Nathan Beach, who designed that Schnittke site (http://www.alfredschnittke.com/), and he says there is some of his music in the new film, There Will Be Blood, but he can't figure out exactly what. The soundtrack is mostly by Jonny Greenwood (of Radiohead) but apparently there is other music, too. If anyone who has seen the film has any ideas, please post.
--Bruce
Bruce thats for the link
I love the art work, and expresses the nature of Schnittke's music, ubiquitious , embracing all things, , un-definable.
Look forward to Nathan's site once its complete.
I would hope Schnittke's music is respected and not used in soundtracks, which is commercialism.
Quote from: paulb on January 16, 2008, 11:39:58 AM
I would hope Schnittke's music is respected and not used in soundtracks, which is commercialism.
Well...yes, I see what you mean, but on the other hand, since many, many classical works are used with respect by the directors, I'd almost see it as complimentary, or even validation, if his works ARE used. (Ponder for a moment what
2001: A Space Odyssey did for Ligeti.) What is puzzling about
There Will Be Blood is that every reference I've found notes Greenwood's music, but nothing by anyone else. So if Greenwood is "channeling Schnittke" he's doing it very well (according to Beach).
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on January 16, 2008, 11:53:26 AM
Well...yes, I see what you mean, but on the other hand, since many, many classical works are used with respect by the directors, I'd almost see it as complimentary, or even validation, if his works ARE used. (Ponder for a moment what 2001: A Space Odyssey did for Ligeti.) What is puzzling about There Will Be Blood is that every reference I've found notes Greenwood's music, but nothing by anyone else. So if Greenwood is "channeling Schnittke" he's doing it very well (according to Beach).
--Bruce
I was unaware of Ligeti's music in 2001, its been sometime since I saw the movie and was unaware of the music credits except for Strauss, Also spraech Zarathustra, which loved in the movie. I don't care for ligeti, but will order the DVD to see how the music worked in.
So yes there is that valid point, the soundtarck being a method of introducing to those who woud most likely not make the "Schnittke discovery" anytime soon. But i am of the belief ifa composer if meant for you, the discovery will happen.
There is so much in Scnittke that could be used as soundtrack in modern film. And that thought often crossed my mind, just how much psychological impact this muisc offers, "the angst" or the german word
gischt, meaning a rushing up on energy from within., elan, enthusiasm.
And knowing Schnittke, he would want his muisc to be part of a movie , provided the substance of the movie
equals the creativity of the music. Schnittke was hip and cool and would be gald to see his music used in conjunction with other high art. He knew that art really has no defined boundary lines and so if the film brings about something of high value, then sure why not include his music.
Just the title
There Will Be Blood, gives a hint that we are in for a "treat".
Yes find out what Greenwood plans to do with Schnittke's muisc. "channeling", I would hope its more like a direct full play of a Schnittke piece or movement and not a collage of snippets from Schnittke.
paul
Schnittke appears popular in film these days: Volker Schlöndorff's Der Neunte Tag makes considerable use of the First Cello Concerto and First Concerto Grosso.
Quote from: edward on January 16, 2008, 12:58:18 PM
Schnittke appears popular in film these days: Volker Schlöndorff's Der Neunte Tag makes considerable use of the First Cello Concerto and First Concerto Grosso.
i'll keep an eye for the film.
What i meant about films of high value, meaning the subject matter and production quality beyond what Hollow-Wood gives us. East european, german film makers is what crossed my mind, like this Volker Schlondorff film sounds intreguing.
Listened to 1st CG today, what a work!
can't recall knowing the 1st cello concerto. The 2nd CC is something that never fails to shock the sensibilities, beyond the everyday mind.
Quote from: Dm on May 01, 2007, 10:51:11 AM
I love the Requiem . . . . . .
I would love to hear another recording of the Requiem. Nothing wrong with the Polyansky, just that i feel there's more that can be brought out.
i have 5 recordings of Rachmaninov's Vespers featuring russian choirs, the 1965 Svechnikov eclipsing the other 4. I am hopeful there's other nuances that can be garnered from the Requiem.
Pentential Psalms is another powerful work that has not been given full justice.
Listening to Schnittke's 4th sym. I was going to do a comparison with the Polyansky now playing and the Rozhdestvensky. can't do it, the work is just too overwhelming.
I've never had this experience before in my past critque of any recordings.
Give me some days / weeks, I'll listen to the Rozh.
The Polyansky has Three Sacred Hymns, the 3 timings are
1:28
2:04
4:29
Seemingly short works, yet extensive in power, depth and emotional involvement.
Thats Schnittke for you. You will never be left disappointed.
bad news
the 4th vc/Kremer/Rozh that i TOLD EVERYONE about, has not arrived from the german seller, ...had i known he was in germany I'd have skipped his $25 listing and gone with the now too late sold $30 listing that i guess someone here picked up on, due to me posting that cd.
Now I'm stuck with the decision of paying the last listing at $65 or going w/o.
I'll choose the latter and wait til another $30 or $40 listing comes along.
I wrote the seller that it was possible our cd was on that 18 wheeler that crashed and burned near NO.
:'(
Quote from: paulb on February 01, 2008, 06:27:43 AM
I wrote the seller that it was possible our cd was on that 18 wheeler that crashed and burned near NO.
:'(
this is in a way, hilarious and sad at the same time. I bet Schnittke would've written an opera about this type of scenario.
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on February 05, 2008, 10:05:43 AM
this is in a way, hilarious and sad at the same time. I bet Schnittke would've written an opera about this type of scenario.
Yes that was the mind of Schnittke, takinga common episode and transforming it into a musical idea. But explosive, seeing into the tragedies of life, Xray vision, spiritual man he certainly was.
One could only imagine had he lived in new orleans and experienced katrina and the aftermath what music would have come forth from this experience. :o
New Orleans has all the material fora requiem, or better a dirge. :'(
Quote from: paulb on February 05, 2008, 10:27:32 AM
Yes that was the mind of Schnittke, takinga common episode and transforming it into a musical idea. But explosive, seeing into the tragedies of life, Xray vision, spiritual man he certainly was.
One could only imagine had he lived in new orleans and experienced katrina and the aftermath what music would have come forth from this experience. :o
New Orleans has all the material fora requiem, or better a dirge. :'(
yeah, i could imagine it now! Requiem For New Orleans, which throws in Jazz tunes and violent string clusters thrown around...... he could get a lot of the material from his 1st Symphony. Or you could listen to the 1st Symphony and pretend that it's called "Requiem For New Orleans"
i do stuff like that sometimes :D
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on February 05, 2008, 10:34:47 AM
yeah, i could imagine it now! Requiem For New Orleans, which throws in Jazz tunes and violent string clusters thrown around...... he could get a lot of the material from his 1st Symphony. Or you could listen to the 1st Symphony and pretend that it's called "Requiem For New Orleans"
i do stuff like that sometimes :D
I did happen to find that i have a copy of scnittke's 1st sym. you know as much as post about his music, I'm still ina learning phase, his music is so overwhelming, at times i can't recall if i heard certain work or not. I'm not one to so quickly graba Schnittke cd and play it. Its very challenging , demands that only one other composer i know of has this sense of sheer power to overwhelm.
So I have it and am now listening to his 1st sym, scored 1969-1972. I was a bit skeptical and unsure that his first efforts at a sym would be able to capture the sheer power and destruction of the largest hurricane to hit american shores since record keeping.
Yes i hear the jazzy tunes 1st movement/13:20.
Right at the start of the sym, the feelings that gripped me as Katrina was bearing down at 4 am has been revived.
Greg I do believe we have found a
Requiem For New Orleans :o
I'll post notes later........
Greg go ck my further thoughts on Schnittke's unreal 1st over at the topic, about ensuring modern day concerts/general topic board.
Schnittke, always full of surprises. had this 1st sym for awhile, but was unaware of its power and dynamics.
You know we all tend to think of composers 1st's as just testing their wings. hardly ever a 1st thats a blockbuster. Sibelius Kullervo comes to mind as a rare exception, its quite a magnificent score.
Schnittke starts right off with his usual flare of highly changed polytonal mastery. Composed in 1969-1972. The same yrs Pettersson was really comming into his own mastery of orchestral shapings.
The 4th movement 10:30-12:27, stright up Bourbon Street Jazz,!! the end of 12:27 sounds likea motif on When The Saints Go Marching In (NO Saints theme song!!) Man did you ever pick the most ideal work as
Requiem For The City Of New Orleans
:o
UNREAL
I think it's fairly uncontroversial to consider that the first symphony can be regarded to a large extent as a requiem: the composer was clear that in part he regarded the work as a lament over the tragedies of the 20th century, ending with the question "What next?"
Quote from: edward on February 05, 2008, 05:04:40 PM
I think it's fairly uncontroversial to consider that the first symphony can be regarded to a large extent as a requiem: the composer was clear that in part he regarded the work as a lament over the tragedies of the 20th century, ending with the question "What next?"
I was editing my post , when you wrote your entriguing ideas.
Thank you for this imput. Where did you find this insightful info as to the idea behind the work?
not sure if you know Schnittke was a highly intuitive and a mind capable of expressing profound religious ideas.
IOW he was in touch with the "underground" <<<umtergrundbewejungen>>>.means underground movements, things out of sight to normal vision.
The
zeitgeist of New Orleans is expressed in the 1st.
So could it remotely possible that Schnittke by including the Bourbon Street Jazz, as tapping into a future cataclysmic (man thats a hard word to spell) event?
I would say if you want to get the
giest of the trauma and after shock, this 1st captures the essense of the inexpressible.
The helter skelter bells 4thmovement/24th minute. THAT IS NEW ORLEANS right now. :o
Quote from: paulb on February 05, 2008, 05:16:10 PM
Thank you for this imput. Where did you find this insightful info as to the idea behind the work?
I suspect that it's in Ivashkin's biography of Schnittke (I've not looked at this book in quite a while, though). It did also come up during a roundtable discussion with the Schnittke student Gerald McBurney at a performance I attended in London many years ago.
...
To acheive better resolution
click on the scan .0005 and then will ask to open file. From there you can use mouse to go where it says slide show.
interesting posts, Paul and Edward.
Did you know, Paul, that in the 1st movement, the orchestra actually starts it by walking onstage while playing their instruments, improvising, and then eventually walks offstage and then onstage again? Must be something to see live! ;D
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on February 06, 2008, 06:43:26 AM
interesting posts, Paul and Edward.
Did you know, Paul, that in the 1st movement, the orchestra actually starts it by walking onstage while playing their instruments, improvising, and then eventually walks offstage and then onstage again? Must be something to see live! ;D
:o ;D
Unreal how Schnittke innovates and always full of surprises.
The 1st sym fits like a glove the city of new orleans tragedy.
Could someone do a favor and pull out their 3rd vc, Kremer/Warner Classics and compare with their Kagan/Live Classics 3rd vc.
For some reason the Kagan "clicks" with me, vs my faint recall of the Kremer, which didn't go over well for some reason.. I think Kremer did not have the same backup forces as does Kagan with an all russian collaboration.
I had that 4 vc set/Kremer/Warner but sold it off at $35, last year >:( ::) :'(
The other day there was one listing at $200, now I see one at $100. and the 2/3 vc/Kremer/Warner is like $14.
I really want the 4th/Kremer/Rozh but its way down on my wish list budget.
I am holding out hope that one day i will snag that 4th with rozh. I know its the 'real deal" and a bargain at $65/amazon.
Quote from: paulb on February 07, 2008, 07:25:28 AM
I am holding out hope that one day i will snag that 4th with rozh. I know its the 'real deal" and a bargain at $65/amazon.
wow, calling any CD that's $65 a bargain seems crazy........ though of course, i kinda know what you're talking about, since certain obscure CDs can have a REALLY crazy price tag, and $65 can seem like nothing in comparison.
I've not heard Kagan in the 3rd concerto, but I don't tend to find Kremer the most convincing interpreter of Schnittke.
For example, in every piece where I've heard both Kremer and Lubotsky, I prefer the latter.
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on February 07, 2008, 07:36:26 AM
wow, calling any CD that's $65 a bargain seems crazy........ though of course, i kinda know what you're talking about, since certain obscure CDs can have a REALLY crazy price tag, and $65 can seem like nothing in comparison.
Considering the 4th is the most incredible of that cycle and is the only vc i know that even closely approches the Pettersson 2nd vc. Its a real stunner the 4th.
Edward, to me Kremer is not second to even the greatest of all violinists. of course you should know who i am refering to.
Kremer does the finest recording of Bach's solo violin, in fact if you can believe Kremer
nailed it twice, 9 yrs apart. Only that other violinist posessed that level of talent.
I'll go to my collection see f I have the Lubotsky on another Schnittke work with violin/BIS label.
Its possible what you say, I'm all open for other approaches other than Kremer.
thanks for the tip, on my to order list today. :)
Kremer is not a venue (except, perhaps, to a fungus, e.g.)
Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2008, 08:14:34 AM
Kremer is not a venue (except, perhaps, to a fungus, e.g.)
;D ;D ;D
--Bruce
Quote from: edward on February 07, 2008, 07:57:06 AM
I've not heard Kagan in the 3rd concerto, but I don't tend to find Kremer the most convincing interpreter of Schnittke.
For example, in every piece where I've heard both Kremer and Lubotsky, I prefer the latter.
I'm abit confused. ust got back from amazon and arkiv, did not see the 4th/Lubotsky.
OOP? Post a link.
I;'m really after the 4th, as its the one most impressive..
though this 3rd with Kagan seems to have struck a chord, its great.
As i mentioned its possible the backup for Kremer on the Warner may not have been up to the task, which caused me to sell it. I clearly recall Kremer in the 4th as doing some very remarkable things, and now regret selling the set.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2008, 08:14:34 AM
Kremer is not a venue (except, perhaps, to a fungus, e.g.)
:D
Get back over to UR Tchaikovsky forum ;D
Varg
here's some links to Schnittke
http://www.classiccat.net/schnittke_a/biography.htm
Try this Requiem and has concerto for piano and strings
http://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-Piano-Concerto-Requiem-Alfred/dp/B000000B1R/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1202854444&sr=1-1
You mentioned how I like the 8th, that you have some *issues* with it.
I am guessing you have the Polyansky/Chandos.
Its rare that there are 2 recordings of the syms, but in the case, we have 2 recordings of the 8th, BOTH ON CHANDOS.
I actually dida comparison the other day and found that i prefered the Rozhdestvensky/Chandos.
though all of Polyansky's Chandos of schnittke is quite good, i gave the nod to rozhdestvensky.
There is enough ofa difference in the 2 which may alter your perception of the work.
But as i said, there is no easy road to Schnittke, each man must forge his own path that leads to the composer.
I have found that path and still the music never ceases to amaze me.
Let me know how you are doing with Schnittke. Each work is quite different, yet there is always that unique signature of Schnittke in all his works.
Nothing easy about Schnittke, the most difficult challenge from any composer.
Quote from: edward on January 16, 2008, 12:58:18 PM
Schnittke appears popular in film these days: Volker Schlöndorff's Der Neunte Tag makes considerable use of the First Cello Concerto and First Concerto Grosso.
He also composed the wonderful score to Askoldov's Commisar.
Lately I've grown to really love the String Trio and Concerto for Three, with the Cello Concerto.
Danny, which recording of the String Trio are you listening to? I think I have just one and could use another.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on February 13, 2008, 11:24:59 AM
Danny, which recording of the String Trio are you listening to? I think I have just one and could use another.
--Bruce
Right here, my friend:
http://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-String-Concerto-Three-Minuet/dp/B000002RW8 (http://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-String-Concerto-Three-Minuet/dp/B000002RW8)
Hope you don't already have it! :)
I'll have to get with the guy who wrote to me asking for a copy of the Rachmaninov Vespers/1965/Svechnikov.
I told him the cd is very worn and i have to figure out how to use my cd burner on my computer.
He says he has heard all the russian recordings, except the 1965 Svechnikov and that hopes to hear that work in its full potential. I told him he reads scores very well, he is correct, not sure how he can read the nuances . He says he is able.
In exchange I will request that he look over Schnittke's scores to the Requiem and Choir Concerto, see if he hears what i hear, that there is more potential in both works.
Also if he could look over the score to Penitential Psalms and compre it to the Swedish Radio Choir.
I know there's much more to be had from that powerful work, as one amazon reviewer heard live the PS and found the Swedish to come up short.
Comments?
Greg, you never told me which 8th you have.
Polyanky or Rozhdestvensky?
There's also an 8th on BIS with Lu Jia conducting some minor orchestra, but I couldn't recommend it over Rozhdestvensky or Polyansky, both of whom have better orchestras and invest the piece with more colour and tension. Jia's performance seems more like a competent run-through than anything, though it scores heavily in having the only performances of For Liverpool and the interesting Symphonic Prelude.
Quote from: edward on February 14, 2008, 10:53:39 AM
There's also an 8th on BIS with Lu Jia conducting some minor orchestra, but I couldn't recommend it over Rozhdestvensky or Polyansky, both of whom have better orchestras and invest the piece with more colour and tension. Jia's performance seems more like a competent run-through than anything, though it scores heavily in having the only performances of For Liverpool and the interesting Symphonic Prelude.
The BIS series of Schnittke has some great recordings, others , like the one you mention , fair.
There's much to explore in Schnittke, each work a masterpiece and so much a masterpiece that each work could/should require its own individual topic, much as the Beethovenians with his works.
Now this is addressed to the several Schnittkeian s we have on the forum.
Is there any among you who do not like the Requiem?
Not sure how to properly pose this question, but does atheism get in the way of absorbing, being impacted by the 3 major scared works of Schnittke?
Once beinga big fan of the Rachmaninov Vespers, a work i listened to all the time, find the Schnittke sacred works to go even further in this field. And this opinion is based on the fact that i have the Vespers/Svechnikov/1965/USSR Chorus, which until you hear that recording, you have not heard the Vespers.
This ties in with my statement that I find Schnittke syms more appealing from first note to last than the Shostakovich's. Shostakovich to me writes froma motive of reflecting more the russian perdictiment, more objective, vs Schnittke's personal experience.
As i made my opinion known before, that Schnittke is like unto Mozart, ina category all his own. Comparable to none. Though more well known than Pettersson, still relatively *a unknown composer*
The Iconoclast :)
as per Karl's request that I sign so, not to lead any newbies unwittingly astray.
Really enjoyed his newly released "Symphony 0" (BIS). Uncharacteristic, but showing assimilated influence of Myaskovsky and Shostakovich.
Ah, been a while since I listened to any good ol' Schnookey... Time to revisit.
Egad? :o What? I am actually the one who started this thread?? Mind-boggling. But nice. ;D
Quote from: Maciek on April 28, 2008, 03:01:29 PM
Ah, been a while since I listened to any good ol' Schnookey... Time to revisit.
Egad? :o What? I am actually the one who started this thread?? Mind-boggling. But nice. ;D
Just listened to the first Concerto Grosso yesterday...still an amazing piece, after all these years.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on April 28, 2008, 03:05:05 PM
Just listened to the first Concerto Grosso yesterday...still an amazing piece, after all these years.
--Bruce
After all, if it all of a suddens stops being amazing, there's something seriously wrong, isn't there? ;)
Been listening to Schnittke a lot lately, just listened to the Requiem for the first time :o breathtaking, simply fabulous!
Listened again to Schnittke's Choir Concerto today. Like nothing else I have heard by him. Utterly beautiful - the only other thing I can think of that is as beautiful is Silvestrov's Testament and Lord's prayer - thankyou to the person who introduced me to both.
Quote from: Guido on September 12, 2008, 08:27:48 AM
Listened again to Schnittke's Choir Concerto today. Like nothing else I have heard by him. Utterly beautiful - the only other thing I can think of that is as beautiful is Silvestrov's Testament and Lord's prayer - thankyou to the person who introduced me to both.
It is a strikingly beautiful piece. Which recording are you listening to?
--Bruce
Valery Polyansky, Russian State Symphonic Choir on Chandos. It's difficult to fathom how beautiful this music is!
Thanks, that's an excellent recording! (I also have the one by Stefan Parkman and the Danish National Radio Choir, and should take time to do an A/B comparison.) I like most of what I've heard of Polyansky's Schnittke series, especially given such stellar sound quality.
--Bruce
I find Schnittke a difficult composer to fully come to terms with. His music is such an extraordinary mixture of harrowing beauty and grotesquery. Like Allan Pettersson, he is not a composer I can listen to often. I have however collected all of the symphonies and most of the concertos.
One major piece of Schnittke I have not heard-but have just ordered-is the Faust Cantata. Can anyone who has heard this work advise me what to expect?
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 22, 2008, 05:18:01 PM
One major piece of Schnittke I have not heard-but have just ordered-is the Faust Cantata. Can anyone who has heard this work advise me what to expect?
Probably the most zany and catchy thing Schnittke ever wrote. See my recent review (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000016FB?ie=UTF8&tag=3636363-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B0000016FB) of the BIS disc at Amazon.
Thank you very much indeed :) That was very helpful! I shall look forward to receiving the cd and listening to its contents :)
I like his miaskovskian Symphony No 0 and the fine Piano Quintet.
I have the live world premiere recording on Sony Classical with Rostropovich conductng of the bizarre but fascinating opera "Life With An Idiot" .
This is one weird opera ! It's a sort of allegory about life in the former Soviet Union in which a married couple are forced to live with an"idiot" as punishment for some infraction of the rules. In the opera, the role is sung by a tenor dressed up to look like Lenin, and the only thing he says throughout the opera
is "Ekh", kh as in chutzpah. He does all manner of wild,crazy and gross things,
and makes life miserable for the couple.
I doubt this recording is still available, but it's worth looking for, if you can stand the grossness.
Have just listened to my new purchase of the Phoenix cd coupling of the Piano Concertos- the early 1960 concerto which was only recently discovered-heavily influenced by Shostakovich and Bartok, the Concerto for Piano Four Hands and Chamber Orchestra, and the Concerto for Piano and Strings of 1979. This Concerto for Piano and Strings is a seriously impressive work which really makes me think that I should spend more time re-evaluating Schnittke :)
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 24, 2008, 04:01:40 AM
Have just listened to my new purchase of the Phoenix cd coupling of the Piano Concertos- the early 1960 concerto which was only recently discovered-heavily influenced by Shostakovich and Bartok, the Concerto for Piano Four Hands and Chamber Orchestra, and the Concerto for Piano and Strings of 1979. This Concerto for Piano and Strings is a seriously impressive work which really makes me think that I should spend more time re-evaluating Schnittke :)
I've long thought the concerto for piano and strings is one of Schnittke's best pieces, and I've heard some very positive reactions to it from people who have had little interest in contemporary music (it was getting a lot of play in Britain in the late '90s and early years of this decade--I don't know about now--in part because of its chamber-orchestra-friendly scoring). Sadly, I don't find the four hands concerto nearly as impressive--I haven't heard the early work, though. (I take it this disc doesn't include the serial
Music for Piano and Chamber Orchestra from the mid-60s.)
One thing I've found through hearing a number of different performers in this concerto is that it works for me in some very widely varied interpretations: I've heard everything from slow, mostly meditative readings with sudden outbursts to Ralf Gothoni's "I just drank 50 cups of coffee" recording on Ondine. I imagine Kupiec would do something interesting with this work, and Frank Strobel has certainly nailed his colours to the Schnittke mast in recent years.
I agree that the Piano Concerto Four Hands is a less interesting work. I had it already in the CPO recording coupled with the Martinu Concerto for Two pianos and Orchestra.
No- the disc does not include the Music for Piano and Chamber Orchestra of 1964.
I bought this disc on the back of the very enthusiastic review in International Record Review and the considerable praise in that review for Kupiec's performance. I have nothing to compare her rendering with but, as I said, the work did grip me :)
Does anyone know where to find the libretto for Life With an Idiot?
I'm about to listen to that and Historia von D. Johann Fausten....
While searching for it, I found this:
http://www.therestisnoise.com/2004/05/schnittke_1992.html
Awesome article by Alex Ross on Schnittke.
My ears are in shock as I'm listening to the Piano Quintet! :o
But not in a bad way.....it's just that I cannot believe how incredibly ominous and forboding this work sounds. It is terrifying.
:)
It's an amazing piece, isn't it! Quite emotional, filled with anger and sorrow (written after his mother's death) and ultimately one of his best works, which is saying something.
And which recording? Never mind, just saw your listing in the WAYLT thread. That's a great performance.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on January 05, 2009, 10:06:08 AM
It's an amazing piece, isn't it! Quite emotional, filled with anger and sorrow (written after his mother's death) and ultimately one of his best works, which is saying something.
And which recording?
--Bruce
Piano Quintet
Barbican Trio with Jan Peter Schmolck, violin and James Boyd, viola
ASV Quicksilva records
I haven't listened to the Piano Trio yet, which is on the same disc.
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 05, 2009, 10:00:25 AM
My ears are in shock as I'm listening to the Piano Quintet! :o
But not in a bad way.....it's just that I cannot believe how incredibly ominous and forboding this work sounds. It is terrifying.
:)
Yeah, it is amazing. "Bleak thoughts at 3 o'clock in the morning" is how I think of it. You might also want to check out its orchestrated version,
In Memoriam.
I'm about to listen to LIfe With an Idiot tomorrow.....
Never heard the Piano Quintet, but I looked it up on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/-sd2NOXwuTQ
What a picture and what ambiance!
Sadly, the Gramophone review of the new completion of his 9th symphony on ECM (which I got kind of excited about) was rather damning. Even the non-Schnittke coupling was dismissed rather curtly (and the justification sounds very reasonable to me - generic ECM-style choral music, who needs more of that?). Meh, I'll stick with symphony no.8 - no completion of the 9th could approach that, anyway...
Quote from: Lethe on May 30, 2009, 10:47:18 AM
Sadly, the Gramophone review of the new completion of his 9th symphony on ECM (which I got kind of excited about) was rather damning. Even the non-Schnittke coupling was dismissed rather curtly (and the justification sounds very reasonable to me - generic ECM-style choral music, who needs more of that?). Meh, I'll stick with symphony no.8 - no completion of the 9th could approach that, anyway...
I haven't read the review, but I was rather expecting to hear something like this. I still may pick the disc up and report, though.
What's the Eighth like, Sara?
Quote from: Lethe on May 30, 2009, 10:47:18 AM
Sadly, the Gramophone review of the new completion of his 9th symphony on ECM (which I got kind of excited about) was rather damning. Even the non-Schnittke coupling was dismissed rather curtly (and the justification sounds very reasonable to me - generic ECM-style choral music, who needs more of that?). Meh, I'll stick with symphony no.8 - no completion of the 9th could approach that, anyway...
I must say that the 'Gramophone' review coincided pretty much with what I thought of the two works. I found the 9th grey and uninteresting and I hated the coupling :(
Karl:
Difficult to describe (I must relisten to all his mature symphonies soon) but it has the deconstructed qualities of all late Schnittke (including symphony no.6 onwards) but with what I recall was a far greater (almost Romantic, albeit heavily modified) emotionalism than the previous two. It is almost passé to point harrowing qualities amongst late Schnittke, but the enormous slow movement in particular, the whisps of construction almost falling apart at a few points. Paradoxically, while it has a bizarre structure when examined on paper (most of the opening is a slow movement as well, punctuated by a brief scherzo before the enormous middle movement), it somehow feels cohesive - Schnittke never actually "gives up" at any point. As a consequence it is somehow not entirely doomish, although very draining. I should relisten to it before confirming that I actually think this, though, as these are years old impressions.
Dundonnell:
I feel more confident about skipping it now, thanks. What are your preferred Schnittke works?
The 8th is one of my favourite Schnittke symphonies, so I can try to describe it:
First movement: passacaglia that climaxes early, then slowly decays into frostier, icier, thinner scoring; highly atmospheric and superlatively orchestrated IMO (and I don't often like Schnittke's orchestration)
Second movement: brusque scherzo
Third movement: long slow movement, often alarmingly thin contrapuntally, alternating between chorales and long monody over a pedal point
Fourth movement: brusque scherzo
Finale: 90 seconds of an ascending Lydian (?) mode, clearly referencing the last pages of Peer Gynt
Thanks, Edward, that is much better described. It reads even more strangely structured than I recalled :D
Guess I'll have to buck the trend. Bad news first.
O-VER-RA-TED TO THEE MAXXX!!!
Can't stand the Piano Concerto, Piano Quintet, Piano Trio...wait, give me a minute, I'll come up with more. In the "so what" category I'll put the Cello Sonata (which I had 3-4 recordings of ::)). Piano music, violin sonatas, trifles, sextets, whatever, I just dismiss it altogether. I want to use the word "crappy."
I just find Schnittke totally annoying. I don't understand the love fest surrounding him, or, maybe I do. I know it was really hip to like him at one point. But everyone's fawning over the Piano Cto., and I HAVE TRIED, but this ode to a heart attack is probably my "most loathed" score (the man seems to have enshrined ALL his various heart attacks). And I couldn't care less about his suffering.
ok... is there more?... well, let's get on to the good news...
I have a nice Ivashkin cd of the cello works (on some obscure Russian-like label) as a companion to another Ivashkin disc of Russian cello rarities on the same label. I believe the label has 4 letters in the name. Then, OF COURSE, on any other Russian cello disc I have, whoomp, there it is! I just find it overrated...what's the big deal? And cello sonata No.2 is just too typical of his late style. Was Schnittke the first to... to do WHAT? Did he INVENT the "miserable" sound?
Anyhow, I always enjoyed the Chailly/Decca disc with the Sym. No.5. And I can enjoy some of the goofy concerto grossos. I'll admit to not hearing syms. 1-4, except 3-4 once long long ago.
However, Syms. 6-7 (BIS) are right up my alley. These two are unqualified successes in my mind. Still haven't heard No.8, but I assume it's as good as everyone says (waiting for a cheap amazon). But, I guarantee, that Schnittke No.8, when I get it, will be the "last" symphony I get by anyone, ever (Lord, please don't take me too literal on that!).
And the same good news for both the Cello Ctos. The Viola Cto. seems to retread the issues for me. And Violin Ctos. 1-4... I remember liking 3-4. So many works from the eighties all have the same tired 5 mvmt. scheme, though. All seem to include at least two long slow mvmts. and the obbligatory "devil's dance" scherzo. I got sooo tired of hearing about Schnittke's "evil" scherzos. Yawn.
I dooo dig the rock band in the Requiem.
Suffice to say I won't be "exploring" any unknown Schnittke (vocal/choral, etc.), which then brings me to the SQs 1-4. I had the Kronos, who have been replaced by:
No.1 (Borodin; though I don't have it yet): this is just a scappy little thing from 1966. No great shakes.
No.2 (Arditti): a larger scrappy little thing from 1979. Nice "demonic" scherzo, but still no great shakes.
No.3 (Orlando): why no one has mentioned the dedicatees of Schnittke's SQ is understandable, but this cd (w/ Yun's SQ No.5 and Kueris' Clarinet Qnt.) is a very nice recital. This must stand as the ONE classic Schnittke work. All the elements are there: darkness, avant garde, renaissance music, wild out of control stuff, plainsong, etc...thee definition of "postmodern", I'm sure. Still, it's no real joy to listen to, but the Orlando bring me back now and then.
No.4 (ABQ): this is the one Schnittke piece I keep returning to (no less for the Rihm No.4... what a coup!). In this one, Schnittke wanted to write a "Viennese" SQ, like he put all his best intentions into it, and I think it's great. It's got the typical 80s five mvmt./40min. scheme of all other Schnittke from this period, but if you've noticed, this seems to be where Schnittke finally congeals for me, the post-DSCH sound of the late 80s. If it gets close to midnight on a desolate night, this is the SQ I go for.
So, if you're like me, and have invested lottts of $$$ on those ridiculously expersive BIS discs, plus many others, and have then sold off most of your Schnittke collection, you'll understand where I'm coming from. I wouldn't have done so without the endless media praise, and I will be that much more skeptical the next time a new god is proclaimed. Actually, I don't even care anymore.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 04:46:57 PM
I just find Schnittke totally annoying. I don't understand the love fest surrounding him, or, maybe I do. I know it was really hip to like him at one point. But everyone's fawning over the Piano Cto., and I HAVE TRIED, but this ode to a heart attack is probably my "most loathed" score (the man seems to have enshrined ALL his various heart attacks). And I couldn't care less about his suffering.
What in the world are you talking about? Schnittke had a problem with strokes, not heart attacks. And the Piano Concerto (if you mean the Concerto for Piano and Strings, his most recorded concerto for the instrument) was written many years before he started having health problems. And the very works where critics and biographers have seen a musical representation of his suffering, the Symphonies 6 and 7, you shower with praise.
Quote from: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 04:46:57 PM
I have a nice Ivashkin cd of the cello works (on some obscure Russian-like label) as a companion to another Ivashkin disc of Russian cello rarities on the same label. I believe the label has 4 letters in the name. Then, OF COURSE, on any other Russian cello disc I have, whoomp, there it is! I just find it overrated...what's the big deal? And cello sonata No.2 is just too typical of his late style. Was Schnittke the first to... to do WHAT? Did he INVENT the "miserable" sound?
The Chandos disc with the
Shostakovich re-scoring of the
Schumann Cello Concerto (Ivashkin is the soloist, so this ties in nicely) also has a
Shostakovich re-scoring of (a? the?)
Schnittke Cello Concerto.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 31, 2009, 02:35:23 PM
The Chandos disc with the Shostakovich re-scoring of the Schumann Cello Concerto (Ivashkin is the soloist, so this ties in nicely) also has a Shostakovich re-scoring of (a? the?) Schnittke Cello Concerto.
I think it was the Tishchenko concerto, not the Schnittke.
(Schnittke's two cello concerti date from 1986 and 1990, iirc.)
Quote from: edward on May 31, 2009, 02:39:47 PM
I think it was the Tishchenko concerto, not the Schnittke.
(Schnittke's two cello concerti date from 1986 and 1990, iirc.)
Ach! Yes, of course, you're right.
Tchah, what a silly mistake! I crave the collective pardon.
Fair enough for CRCulver taking me to task. $:)
My father died last year from a stroke (on Thursday); I should know better, and apologize to anyone I've offended, including myself. Thank you.
Ultimately, I don't reeeally think my beef is with Schnittke, it's with BIS and their Great and all powerful expensive cds that broke my bank in the 90s, back when a dollar was still .75. They are like the Black "Naxos"...haha... is it something about Sweden, or...
nevermind :-X 8)
Quote from: edward on May 30, 2009, 11:09:43 AM
I haven't read the review, but I was rather expecting to hear something like this. I still may pick the disc up and report, though.
Having listened a couple of times to the 9th, I'm still not sure what to make of it.
I don't think the typical ECM sound does the music any favours (and Dennis Russel Davies' conducting seems insipid to me--what's the point of conducting Schnittke in a staid manner?) but in general this symphony sounds rather more generically post-Bergian than most of this composer's work, though there are certainly some his typical touches in evidence.
The coupling didn't impress me: it sounded like a rather faceless mush of various post-Soviet composers all blended into one gooey mess.
Just listened to Peer Gynt. Wow. This is going to take a couple tries, but the Epilogue blew me away.
Dang, I mean, great! Another one for the To-Listen-To pile ;)
Quote from: Catison on June 12, 2009, 06:33:58 AM
Just listened to Peer Gynt. Wow. This is going to take a couple tries, but the Epilogue blew me away.
Welcome aboard!
('Wow' does seem to be the consensus view of
Peer Gynt here and other places I've seen people discuss the work, for what it's worth.)
Quote from: edward on June 12, 2009, 07:40:40 AM
Welcome aboard!
('Wow' does seem to be the consensus view of Peer Gynt here and other places I've seen people discuss the work, for what it's worth.)
Hence
this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,636.msg319296.html#msg319296).
Any recs for fun Schnittke? I've been listening to the Gogol suite and it has reminded me how entertaining he can be when at his most perky (as in the film music - although I cannot recall specific pieces)...
Quote from: edward on June 12, 2009, 07:40:40 AM
Welcome aboard!
Indeed, welcome aboard. It's a trip to another world! 0:)
By the way...given the hugeness of this score, I've always thought it would be a good idea for some enterprising composer to extract a suite from it, lasting 20-30 minutes, for popularization purposes. There are even some snappy tunes in it (like the Joplin parody, and the Grieg "Morning" parody) that could be used.
Quote from: Lethe on June 15, 2009, 03:15:16 AM
Any recs for fun Schnittke? I've been listening to the Gogol suite and it has reminded me how entertaining he can be when at his most perky (as in the film music - although I cannot recall specific pieces)...
I have always thought the First Concerto Grosso was written with an underlying "twinkle in the eye" (if not really "uproarious"). Others may find it nightmarish, but I find it exuberant and lots of fun.
--Bruce
I've listened several times now to the Schnittke/Raskatov 9th and have grown to like it quite a lot, though I think of all the Schnittke I like it's taken the most time to appreciate. The key to the work seems to be twofold to me--a kind of reconcilation of his late style with the post-Bergian atmosphere of works like the string trio; plus a more positive spin on the late style in the way that the music pushes forward more energetically the longer it goes on.
I'm not calling it a masterpiece, but I find it distinctly compelling and worthy to sit with the best of his symphonies.
So you wait years for a recording of Schnittke's Ninth, and then two of them come along at once:
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_August09/BISCD1727.htm
Quote from: edward on July 11, 2009, 01:59:39 PM
So you wait years for a recording of Schnittke's Ninth, and then two of them come along at once:
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_August09/BISCD1727.htm
And it's with another recording of the Concerto Grosso #1! Nice! :o
I coulda swore I heard the Schnittke 9th somewhere, though... you sure it was never recorded before now?
Quote from: Greg on July 12, 2009, 07:18:52 PM
And it's with another recording of the Concerto Grosso #1! Nice! :o
I coulda swore I heard the Schnittke 9th somewhere, though... you sure it was never recorded before now?
There was a recording floating around the 'net in appalling sound quality, made by someone with a hand-held tape recorder, of Rozhdestvensky's attempted completion of the symphony. This version horrified the Schnittke family and led to the withdrawal of the work for many years.
Quote from: edward on July 11, 2009, 01:59:39 PM
So you wait years for a recording of Schnittke's Ninth, and then two of them come along at once:
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_August09/BISCD1727.htm
Cool! And as an aside, the first recording I've seen from the Cape [Town] Philharmonic. Oops, here's the group in the Schnittke Symphony No. 0, too.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on July 13, 2009, 09:37:06 AM
Cool! And as an aside, the first recording I've seen from the Cape [Town] Philharmonic. Oops, here's the group in the Schnittke Symphony No. 0, too.
That's a great disc. The playing is surprisingly decent, and the symphony is very good :o I'd have never have expected it, but it's a fine piece of mid century conservatism, melodic and not overly long. I picked it up for the oratorio expecting the symphony to be total filler, but found myself enjoying the whole package.
Quote from: Lethe on July 13, 2009, 09:47:16 AM
That's a great disc. The playing is surprisingly decent, and the symphony is very good :o I'd have never have expected it, but it's a fine piece of mid century conservatism, melodic and not overly long. I picked it up for the oratorio expecting the symphony to be total filler, but found myself enjoying the whole package.
Thanks, appreciate the comment. I'll no doubt get it, since I don't know either piece. (I thought Bruckner was the only one with a "Symphony No. 0"?) Interesting, too, that BIS has continued to record so much Schnittke over such a long span. I think the first Schnittke CD I ever bought was the Concerto Grosso No. 1, with Lev Markiz and the New Stockholm Chamber Orchestra.
--Bruce
I started with the concerto grosso no.1 too - it seems to be his only "hit" as far as hits go with modern composers. However good it is, I would not claim that the no.0 symphony is as good as Nagasaki, which is brilliant and a must-hear at some point. I believe the BIS version is with Schnittke's revised (under Communist party pressure) ending, making it "happy". I didn't really feel that it compromised the piece, as I was enjoying the surprising amount of melody throughout, and the finale simply ramped this up to a higher (sort of manic) level - a bit like the effect of the opening to Shostakovich's 5th finale, perhaps.
That Gogol Suite has to be one of his masterpieces. I've only heard it once, and it was live, any it really made an impression. It's a gargantuan piece, but should be a standard by now.
Quote from: edward on July 13, 2009, 09:35:46 AM
There was a recording floating around the 'net in appalling sound quality, made by someone with a hand-held tape recorder, of Rozhdestvensky's attempted completion of the symphony. This version horrified the Schnittke family and led to the withdrawal of the work for many years.
Really? Is it this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nEo0F-uvTM
Quote from: Greg on July 13, 2009, 07:38:09 PM
Really? Is it this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nEo0F-uvTM
Nope. That's the ECM recording.
An informative review of the 9th symphony with musical examples can be found at William C White's blog
http://www.willcwhite.com/tag/symphony-no-9
Quote from: UB on July 13, 2009, 08:51:41 PM
An informative review of the 9th symphony with musical examples can be found at William C White's blog
http://www.willcwhite.com/tag/symphony-no-9
A good article, I thought. I hadn't picked up on the parallel between the end of the 8th and the beginning of the 9th, but he's right about it. (I don't think I rate the 8th as highly as he does, though!)
Quote from: edward on July 13, 2009, 09:28:11 PM
(I don't think I rate the 8th as highly as he does, though!)
Well I wouldn't call it "the pinnacle of musical art," but I do think it's one of Schnittke's best pieces.
The "completed" 9th doesn't interest me, except as a curiosity. It would have to be roughly as complete as Mahler's 10th for me to take an interest, and it sounds like it was not at such an advanced stage.
Quote from: Spitvalve on July 13, 2009, 10:54:13 PM
Well I wouldn't call it "the pinnacle of musical art," but I do think it's one of Schnittke's best pieces.
The "completed" 9th doesn't interest me, except as a curiosity. It would have to be roughly as complete as Mahler's 10th for me to take an interest, and it sounds like it was not at such an advanced stage.
I would totally agree with your assessment of the 8th there.
There seems to be so much contradictory information floating around about the 9th. My understanding (from talking to Ronald Weitzman about it a few years ago, and from what's mentioned on the ECM inlay) is that the symphony was in fact completed in short score. However, due to Schnittke being almost totally paralysed when he wrote it, the score was in places almost unreadable and required heavy study to decipher it. I am also assuming that Irina Schnittke thinks the final score is a reasonable facsimile of her husband's intentions, since otherwise I doubt she would have let the work out into the world (I believe she had the final decision on whether to sanction it for public performance).
Was just browsing the Proms schedule and on August 24, check this out. Will be broadcast live on BBC3, and archived for one week.
Schnittke: Nagasaki (UK premiere)
Shostakovich: Symphony No.8 in C minor
Elena Zhidkova, mezzo-soprano
London Symphony Chorus
London Symphony Orchestra
Valery Gergiev, conductor
--Bruce
I only had a chance to read a small part of this thread at work.
Can anyone give me an idea of his style (any other composers that he is similar to)?
I have some credits to burn on a music site, and I was looking at his Symphonies...
Schnittke's Concerto Grosso No. 1 was the first piece I ever heard by him, which at the time I jokingly described as "Vivaldi on acid." It is scored for two violins, prepared piano, harpsichord and strings, and sounds somewhat like an 18th-century piece periodically being interrupted by Ligeti. He was one of the first composers to write in "polystylism," with forms from the past and present intermingling.
If you like chamber music, definitely investigate his Piano Quintet, available in many fine recordings. (I have perhaps five different versions, and would recommend all of them.)
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on August 13, 2009, 08:32:33 AM
He was one of the first composers to write in "polystylism," with forms from the past and present intermingling.
Thanks for the reply. He sounds really interesting, and the quote above might be enough for me to give him a shot!
The Conc grosso No.1 is a good neo-baroque piece. Otherwise Schnittke is one distinctly second-rate composer and his prominance is just a mystery, as is this dumb thread, and obviously related to garbage suitable marketing and promotion he managed to secure. His music is weak.
Quote from: monafam on August 13, 2009, 08:36:44 AM
Thanks for the reply. He sounds really interesting, and the quote above might be enough for me to give him a shot!
His output is huge. Check out the list on Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Schnittke
Definitely worth exploring, with many fine recordings available. His prominence is no mystery; he was an excellent composer who despite a lifetime of ill health managed to write a large body of utterly fascinating music. Not all is first-rate, but IMHO there is enough of it to secure his place as one of the greats of the 20th century.
--Bruce
Quote from: Sean on August 13, 2009, 08:40:20 AM
The Conc grosso No.1 is a good neo-baroque piece. Otherwise Schnittke is one distinctly second-rate composer and his prominance is just a mystery, as is this dumb thread, and obviously related to garbage suitable marketing and promotion he managed to secure. His music is weak.
Obviously, that's one of his best, but have you ever listened to the 1st Symphony or the Piano Concerto?
Greg, the concerto for piano and strings? Yes. Not the symphony though, only the Seventh. I have difficulty taking this music very seriously.
Here (http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2009/Jul-Dec09/prom52_2408.htm) is a nicely detailed write-up by Carla Rees of the Proms performance of Schnittke's Nagasaki, which Gergiev conducted along with Shostakovich's Eighth Symphony. (Would have love to have heard this concert.)
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on September 10, 2009, 01:29:08 PM
Here (http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2009/Jul-Dec09/prom52_2408.htm) is a nicely detailed write-up by Carla Rees of the Proms performance of Schnittke's Nagasaki, which Gergiev conducted along with Shostakovich's Eighth Symphony. (Would have love to have heard this concert.)
--Bruce
Hi Bruce - i heard this concert on the radio and was quite special for me - must admit Nagasaki was first hearing for me but much to digest - quite different from what little ive heard of Schnittke mainly on you tube - any recommendations ?
I know the Shostakovich eighth very well - not sure if this was good performance or not but i enjoyed it - i thought the write up Carla Rees gave was excellent giving great picture of the tone of this great work - and what she said about audience noise was so true - i wish audiences could be more respectful but seems a world wide affliction >:(
Quote from: offbeat on September 10, 2009, 01:51:36 PM
Hi Bruce - i heard this concert on the radio and was quite special for me - must admit Nagasaki was first hearing for me but much to digest - quite different from what little ive heard of Schnittke mainly on you tube - any recommendations ?
I know the Shostakovich eighth very well - not sure if this was good performance or not but i enjoyed it - i thought the write up Carla Rees gave was excellent giving great picture of the tone of this great work - and what she said about audience noise was so true - i wish audiences could be more respectful but seems a world wide affliction >:(
Hey offbeat! If you haven't heard the Piano Quintet, it's almost a "must," and there are many good recordings to choose from. And
here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4585.20.html) is a short thread with some more recommendations for that and other pieces, if you haven't seen it already.
And yes, the audience noise is definitely everywhere. You should hear some of the audiences for the New York Philharmonic; you have to wonder why some people even leave their homes. ::)
--Bruce
Now this new disc looks interesting. It's a pairing of Schnittke's Viola Concerto with, er, Elgar's "Viola Concerto." Anyone heard it yet?:
http://www.amazon.com/Elgar-Schnittke-Concertos-Philharmonia-Eschenbach/dp/B002D1GM0G
Rerelease: 6 CDs for the price og 2. Any comments?
ALFRED SCHNITTKE
The Ten Symphonies
Symphony Nos. 0 & 1
Symphony No. 2 'St. Florian'
Symphony No. 3
Symphony No. 4 (version for counter-tenor, tenor, mixed choir & orchestra)
Symphony Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8
Symphony No. 9 (reconstruction by Alexander Raskatov 2006)
Royal Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra
BBC National Orchestra of Wales
Stockholm Sinfonietta
Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra
Norrkoping Symphony Orchestra
Cape Philharmonic Orchestra
Conductors:
Leif Segerstam, Eri Klas, Tadaaki Otaka, Okko Kamu
Neeme Jarvi, Lu Jia, Owain Arwel Hughes
These recordings, part of the Schnittke Edition begun in 1987, have been brought together in a 6CD boxed set, which includes an initiated essay by Schnittke's close associate Alexander Ivashkin: a fascinating chapter in the history of the late 20th Century symphony.
BIS 6cds BISCD1767-68
It might be worth considering, particularly if you don't have the original issues or don't want the couplings on them (I think they contain the only extant recordings of Pianissimo, Nagasaki, For Liverpool and the Symphonic Prelude). IMO the performances of the 8th and, especially, the 6th are uncompetitive; and the 5th is better served by Chailly (only available on an ArkivCD at present).
Quote from: edward on November 05, 2009, 06:38:23 AM
It might be worth considering, particularly if you don't have the original issues or don't want the couplings on them (I think they contain the only extant recordings of Pianissimo, Nagasaki, For Liverpool and the Symphonic Prelude). IMO the performances of the 8th and, especially, the 6th are uncompetitive; and the 5th is better served by Chailly (only available on an ArkivCD at present).
Thanks. I find Chailly practically always worthwhile with any 20th century stuff he does.
I thought I'd embark on Schnittke's entire symphony cycle, but I lack the Second. Living out of a backpack at the moment and not yet ready to order the disc, I look on several pirated music websites but find nothing, though Schnittke's other symphonies are all there. On Amazon, there's only a single review of the "St. Florian". Curious. Why is this symphony so little talked about compared to the others?
See, as soon as the topic of the "St Florian" comes up, all discussion suddenly ends. This is a cursed symphony. :-)
BIS is now releasing a 6 CD box with the 10 symphonies (0-9).
I have most of mine on CHANDOS (Polyansky and Rozhdstvensky; only the 5th on BIS with Neeme Jarvi; I don't have 0 and 9). I wonder if it's worth splurging on an alternative set? I like Schnittke but his symphonies are not my particular favorites...
Sounds like you could better spend your money on other things... I would recommend trying the BIS disc with No.0 and Nagasaki, though. Nagasaki is brilliant (although this version has a kind of forced upbeat ending for purposes of censorship), and symphony no.0 is ever so good, despite being an almost total emulation of Shostakovich.
Quote from: Lethe on November 28, 2009, 02:34:56 AM
Sounds like you could better spend your money on other things...
Ha, ha, ha! I'd never have expected to read that sentence on this board! ;D
Seriously, though, I'm now putting Nagasaki at the top of my wishlist. Thanks for rec. 8)
Quote from: Lethe on November 28, 2009, 02:34:56 AM
Sounds like you could better spend your money on other things... I would recommend trying the BIS disc with No.0 and Nagasaki, though. Nagasaki is brilliant (although this version has a kind of forced upbeat ending for purposes of censorship), and symphony no.0 is ever so good, despite being an almost total emulation of Shostakovich.
What about for someone who has no Schnittke yet?
Quote from: Catison on December 03, 2009, 11:34:21 AM
What about for someone who has no Schnittke yet?
Perfect, if they know what they're expecting :) Recordings of Schnittke's symphonies are odd in that there doesn't seem to be much consensus on which are "best" - each disc has its individual detractors, which makes the BIS cycle as good as any. It might still be better for the person to buy a CD of one of the symphonies on a different label (perhaps Chandos) first, so know whether they like the style or not, meaning they could then potentially go ahead and buy the BIS box without any performance duplication.
I feel that a more eloquent person could've said the above in half the words.
But of course, the symphonies only tell half the story, and I would strongly advise any Schnittke newbie to give a disc of chamber music a try as well (preferably the piano quintet, string trio, or a quartet).
Quote from: Catison on December 03, 2009, 11:34:21 AM
What about for someone who has no Schnittke yet?
Assuming you mean yourself: Schnittke is funny in that there seems to be no "standard rec" CD or two for people who want to get into him.
My first Schnittke was the Rostropovich/Ozawa CD containing the 2nd Cello Cto and
In Memoriam (which is the orchestration of the Piano Quintet).
I echo the above Lethe comment about there being no consensus yet regarding the symphonies. Of the ones I've heard though, I can unhesitatingly recommend the 8th (I have the Rozhdestvensky recording).
And yeah, you should look into the chamber music, such as the Piano 5tet or the string 4tets.
Peer Gynt is an absolutely staggering work, but it's 2 CDs on BIS, hence expensive.
Listened to the Schnittke concerto for piano and strings yesterday (the BIS recording). An interesting work. I don't know how seriously to take this music. It seems to incorporate influences form such diverse sources, such as strings playing archaic sounding harmonies as the piano pounds out discordant chords. Sometimes I think he is just playing with us, which isn't necessarily bad.
Quote from: Scarpia on December 04, 2009, 08:24:37 AM
Listened to the Schnittke concerto for piano and strings yesterday (the BIS recording). An interesting work. I don't know how seriously to take this music. It seems to incorporate influences form such diverse sources, such as strings playing archaic sounding harmonies as the piano pounds out discordant chords. Sometimes I think he is just playing with us, which isn't necessarily bad.
This is one of the many strange things about Schnittke - he mixes genuine agony with whimsy - occasionally in the same pieces - creating a fractured effect which cripple the music's chances of being compared to more objectively appreciable composers with more concentrated styles and "periods" (I'm thinking Schoenberg, Stravinsky, etc). As a result he will always be considered flawed, even by his fans, and it takes something of a leap of faith to embrace the style.
Quote from: Lethe on December 04, 2009, 09:05:04 AM
This is one of the many strange things about Schnittke - he mixes genuine agony with whimsy - occasionally in the same pieces - creating a fractured effect which cripple the music's chances of being compared to more objectively appreciable composers with more concentrated styles and "periods" (I'm thinking Schoenberg, Stravinsky, etc). As a result he will always be considered flawed, even by his fans, and it takes something of a leap of faith to embrace the style.
Again we a confronted with the eternal question, can whimsy be profound? Certainly the converse is false, lack of whimsy does not imply profundity.
Quote from: Velimir on December 03, 2009, 09:56:30 PM
I echo the above Lethe comment about there being no consensus yet regarding the symphonies. Of the ones I've heard though, I can unhesitatingly recommend the 8th (I have the Rozhdestvensky recording).
Seconded, without reservation.
Quote
Peer Gynt is an absolutely staggering work, but it's 2 CDs on BIS, hence expensive.
Yes yes yes. Even darker that the bleak 8th Symphony, Peer Gynt is a real experience in music - totally exhausting, and emotionally draining. I really have to be in a certain frame of mind to listen to Schnittke.
Very vaulable discussion for me this, as I am a Schnittke newbie and am slowly exploring his works. What I do have, is the mighty 2nd cello concerto on the magnificent Chandos double of his cello music, and the Hyperion disc of chamber music with the fine piano quintet and extremely interesting string trio. With time I will go further.
I think some of the Concerti grossi (esp. no. 1?) could be considered an "easy" entry into Schnittke's sound world.
uh... this Raskatov fellow?
There's a Megadisc cd of three of his pieces, including a String Quartet (hence my interest). Does anyone know it?
I didn't know where else to ask.
Just picked up the Ewa Kupiec recording of piano concertos nos. 1-3. Anyone know the recording or the pieces?
Found the SACD for $9.99 here on Washington Street, and I had chanced to see the image of the disc on-line when searching for Maria Lettberg (she plays the 3rd & 4th hand on concerto no. 3).
Quote from: Maciek on April 29, 2007, 01:00:45 PM
Isn't it about time we had an Alfred Garyevich Schnittke thread?
Say, Maciek . . . the Cyrillic transliteration I see has two r's.
So was his dad a Gary or a Harry? . . .
And (forgive me if this has already been discussed) . . . anyone know the Gesualdo opera?
Quote from: Apollon on March 12, 2010, 11:43:43 AM
Just picked up the Ewa Kupiec recording of piano concertos nos. 1-3. Anyone know the recording or the pieces?
Found the SACD for $9.99 here on Washington Street, and I had chanced to see the image of the disc on-line when searching for Maria Lettberg (she plays the 3rd & 4th hand on concerto no. 3).
Gosh, was mine the last post on this thread for a year?
And this Ewa Kupiec recording is lovely.
Quote from: Apollon on March 16, 2011, 08:10:09 AM
Say, Maciek . . . the Cyrillic transliteration I see has two r's.
So was his dad a Gary or a Harry? . . .
Actually, I've wondered about that myself a couple of times. Either I wasn't very persevering, or this is something new, but Wikipedia actually has the answer (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Шнитке,_Гарри_Викторович)!
Ah, yes, good ol' Harry Viktorovich!
Speaking of Schnittke (and can't believe that an entire year went by with no posts!), at a recent New York Philharmonic concert, Lisa Batiashvili was the soloist in Beethoven's Violin Concerto--with Schnittke's cadenzas. (Gidon Kremer has used them on a his recording.) As one friend said, hearing them was like being splashed with a glass of cold water: they are filled with the composer's typical buzzing, sputtering sounds, and very virtuosic on their own terms. I found them extremely fascinating, and was thinking that Beethoven might have thought so, too.
--Bruce
Calling all Schnittke experts: anyone know the scoring for (the very cool) symphony 3? Thanks.
I'm no expert, but here goes:
Quote from: http://www.boosey.com/cr/music/Alfred-Schnittke-Symphony-No-3/3441
Schnittke, Alfred: Symphony No.3 (1981) 60'
Scoring
4(=picc).4(IV=corA).4(III=picc.cl;IV=bcl).4(IV=dbn)-6.4. 4(IV=dbass trbn).1-perc(6):timp/2tam-t/vib/mar/bells/glsp- el.guit-b.guit-2harp-pft-hpd-cel-org-strings(16.16.12.12.10)
World Premiere
11/5/1981
Gewandhaus , Leipzig
Gewandhausorchester / Kurt Masur
And just as confirmation (though slightly less detailed):
Quote from: http://www.sikorski.de/475/en/0/a/0/orchestral_music/1005367_symphony_no_3.html
Playing time: 57:00
Opus/Year: (1981)
Genre: Orchestral music
Instrumentation: 4,4,4,4 - 6,4,4,1 - Schl (6 Spieler: u.a. Pk, Gl, Glsp, Marimb, Vibr), 2 Hf, Cel, Cemb, Klav, Org, E-Git, BGit, Streicher (16/16/12/12/10)
(The estimated duration has dropped by 3 minutes.)
Quote from: Maciek on April 13, 2011, 12:50:24 PM
And just as confirmation (though slightly less detailed):
(The estimated duration has dropped by 3 minutes.)
Many thanks!
I think Schnittke is one of those composers that's just hyped to death by critics. A Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, or Stravinsky, he is not. I thought his polystylism would be an interesting idea, but the way Schnittke uses this method in his music is completely disjointed and doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever. I understand it that he dropped this approach in his later music, perhaps later Schnittke is more to my tastes. We shall see. I won't be returning to his early work anytime soon.
You really need to work on being able to say that you just don't care for a composer, rather than claiming that they are bad :)
Late Schnittke is less collage-like, but it's still full of his stylistic fingerprints - it couldn't be recognised as music by anybody else. Fundimentally Schnittke isn't really concerned with coherency or rigour in the traditional manner, it's not a failing, but a choice. I feel that your entry to his music via the symphonies was not ideal - in any recommendation thread most of the music suggested would not be symphonies. As a symphonist Schnittke reminds me a little of Schumann - his brilliance allowed him to write well in the medium, but it perhaps didn't come as naturally to him as other forms.
Either way, before you totally give up try the 8th symphony to at least give his late style a chance. If only short clips could rescue him for you, then perhaps try these:
http://www.youtube.com/v/7p1NM6hn4w8 http://www.youtube.com/v/pYLpMmw_DUE http://www.youtube.com/v/Ct8k_iiF_I8
http://www.youtube.com/v/9k4Uu7S5t30 http://www.youtube.com/v/XMivkQOYcGU http://www.youtube.com/v/xNKWoo9Fe40
http://www.youtube.com/v/tgDwmIGTrhk http://www.youtube.com/v/vK6uX1-Yb8o http://www.youtube.com/v/m7awq8UDXMY
I prefer his more integrated/runinative music, and many of the above are more concentrated than some of the sprawling symphonies.
I realise that this list is overkill to listen through, but I couldn't pick just a few.
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 15, 2011, 09:32:27 PMYou really need to work on being able to say that you just don't care for a composer, rather than claiming that they are bad :)
I never claimed he was a bad composer. My claim was he was overhyped, which I believe he is. Hell, I think Beethoven is overhyped too! :D Even if I did claim he was a terrible composer, I have every right to express my opinion whether you agree with it or not. :) That's the great thing about music, it's subjective.
As I said above, I haven't given up hope. I will keep trying, but when I'm ready, until then I will listen to music that I enjoy, which is a more rewarding activity than listening to something that does nothing for me.
Yep, MI in his previous post included qualifications like "I think", "I thought" and "my tastes", so it makes no sense to accuse him of simply writing off Schnittke as a bad composer.
Feel like I'm repeating myself here.
People can think many things, but it's still fun to try to discuss them :)
Edit: I did misread his point, however, though I would still not consider any non-canon composer as particularly overrated, although plenty are underrated.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 15, 2011, 09:47:39 PM
I never claimed he was a bad composer. My claim was he was overhyped, which I believe he is.
Well, that's a bit of sophistry, isn't it? Like somehow in another thread recently claiming that Le sacre is overrated. It is a claim that in the case of something which many people, including professional musicians, find of compelling artistic value, they're all mistaken, but that (miraculously) the truth has been granted to you, and you perceive better than they the true value of the art under advisement.
Quote from: Apollon on April 16, 2011, 04:59:12 AM
Well, that's a bit of sophistry, isn't it? Like somehow in another thread recently claiming that Le sacre is overrated. It is a claim that in the case of something which many people, including professional musicians, find of compelling artistic value, they're all mistaken, but that (miraculously) the truth has been granted to you, and you perceive better than they the true value of the art under advisement.
However, it's not impossible for the majority to be deluded
en masse.
Quote from: Apollon on April 16, 2011, 04:59:12 AM
Well, that's a bit of sophistry, isn't it? Like somehow in another thread recently claiming that Le sacre is overrated. It is a claim that in the case of something which many people, including professional musicians, find of compelling artistic value, they're all mistaken, but that (miraculously) the truth has been granted to you, and you perceive better than they the true value of the art under advisement.
You can also turn that around.
"Someone in another thread recently claimed that Le Sacre is a masterpiece. It is a claim that in the case of something which many people, including professional musicians, find to be of little value, they're all mistaken, but that (miraculously) the truth has been granted to you, and you perceive better than they the true value of the art under advisement."
And before you say it is not true, you certainly can find many conservative musicians that don't respect that piece. It amuses me to do that...
But the real problem is that you turn voicing an opinion into an act of disrespect for the entire music community. You create a hostile environment where whenever someone voices an opinion contrary to what you hold you accuse them of thumbing their nose at a community of unknown "professional musicians" that are I guess supposed to be outraged and upset at the opinion. Karl, do you have to do that every single time someone disagrees with you? It's tiring.
If someone wishes to claim that Schnittke is "overhyped" or "overrated" my question is "by whom?" I don't recall ever being exposed to any "hype" of Schnittke. I came to know of his existence because before discussion boards one way to find out about obscure composers was to see what music was being recorded by adventurous labels like BIS, and BIS was releasing a lot of music by a composer with the funny name "Schnittke." I got one and it was really odd, but made me curious to hear more. Later I encountered a few threads on fora such as this one with enthusiastic discussion, and recordings by very prominent musicians (the sort that can pressure their record label into recording something off the beaten path). So if Schnittke is being hyped it is by people like Yuri Bashmet and Gidon Kremer, and they hype it by playing the music.
Quote from: toucan on April 16, 2011, 05:50:26 AM
Well, surely even the majority isn't so deluded as tp place anything by Schnittke on a foot of equality with The Rite of Spring (?)
The use and misuse and abuse of the past by Alfred Schnittke: just as scandalous, just as egregious as in Arvo Part - and just as tastelessly done.
What they have done, these post-Soviet, post modern, post punk, post-genius, post-creative composers (Silvestrov and Kancheli also do it) is invent a new cliche, where the past is given a cheaply senstimentalist slant, while the present - modernity - is made to seem unpleasant, aggressive & ugly. Then they endlessly oppose the two, as if contrast, conflict & discontinuity were all there was to modern times.
"Then they endlessly oppose the two, as if contrast, conflict & discontinuity were all there was to modern times."
In fairness, that's been the basic drift of high culture since the great Modernist break early last century and the Postmodernism that followed in its wake. Can you imagine people today honestly, and without self-consciousness, embracing the sentiments of Romantic era, for example? We live in an age where people feel themselves too knowing, too sophisticated, too cool to believe in anything without injecting irony or arrogance into the mix. (And I don't assert that the composers you mentioned fall prey to that, merely that they'd be in keeping with the times if they did.)
(Btw, Part served his time in the modernist salt mines and wrote more than a few seemingly "unpleasant, aggressive & ugly" works before he developed the style he's known for.)
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 16, 2011, 06:05:30 AM
If someone wishes to claim that Schnittke is "overhyped" or "overrated" my question is "by whom?"
I always interpret an expression of "overhyped" as by fellow forumites. Certainly can't apply to the audience as a whole which listens mostly to classical lite fm ;D nor to the critics who dole out positive criticism towards lesser unknown composers equally without bias.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 16, 2011, 06:05:30 AM
If someone wishes to claim that Schnittke is "overhyped" or "overrated" my question is "by whom?" I don't recall ever being exposed to any "hype" of Schnittke.
If you mean critics and general media buzz, I can think of very few contemporary composers who are hyped, to say nothing of "overhyped." Maybe John Adams, or Osvaldo Golijov, fit into this category, and to a certain extent Elliott Carter (tho' in his case his extreme old age is a factor - there's a freak-show aspect to it: "look at the 100-yr. old guy writing atonalist music!"). And there was earlier hype for Philip Glass and some of the "holy minimalists," including Part.
But Schnittke? In his case, such "hype" is produced mainly by the musicians playing him and the fans listening to him (like on this board).
Quote from: Grazioso on April 16, 2011, 05:19:15 AM
However, it's not impossible for the majority to be deluded en masse.
In such a case, I do believe it impossible. Because we are not talking about an undifferentiated mass, in an irrational (or supra-rational) situation, reacting to herd instinct. We are talking about a great variety of data points, if you like, people from different backgrounds and with different degrees of artistic expertise (in the first place) and including a significant minority consisting of some of the world's greatest musicians. That's all Point 1. Point 2 is the perennial, if you don't like something as well as someone else likes it, why not be even and honest, and say, you don't like something as well as someone else likes it. Why the need to build the sand-castle of pretense that one's opinion is somehow an Entity of Truth out in the world? Why the "overrated" gambit? I'm with (poco) Sfz on that: it's the "overrated!" whiners who are the tiresome crowd. What's overrated, is rediscovered mediocrities from the 18th and 19th centuries being touted as The World's Brilliant Composers, because, gosh, the tunes are likeable, and granny can hum 'em.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 16, 2011, 06:05:30 AM
If someone wishes to claim that Schnittke is "overhyped" or "overrated" my question is "by whom?" I don't recall ever being exposed to any "hype" of Schnittke. I came to know of his existence because before discussion boards one way to find out about obscure composers was to see what music was being recorded by adventurous labels like BIS, and BIS was releasing a lot of music by a composer with the funny name "Schnittke." I got one and it was really odd, but made me curious to hear more. Later I encountered a few threads on fora such as this one with enthusiastic discussion, and recordings by very prominent musicians (the sort that can pressure their record label into recording something off the beaten path). So if Schnittke is being hyped it is by people like Yuri Bashmet and Gidon Kremer, and they hype it by playing the music.
Good point. And again, what is really going on, when somebody takes (what I should think is qiute a normal and characteristic activity in the musical world) of a performer who champions a composer, and not with lip-service, but by "eating the cooking," i.e., going out in the trenches and presenting the music by his own musical efforts — and smearing that as "hype"?
Quote from: haydnfan on April 16, 2011, 05:53:30 AM
But the real problem is that you turn voicing an opinion into an act of disrespect for the entire music community. You create a hostile environment where whenever someone voices an opinion contrary to what you hold you accuse them of thumbing their nose at a community of unknown "professional musicians" that are I guess supposed to be outraged and upset at the opinion. Karl, do you have to do that every single time someone disagrees with you? It's tiring.
My dear chap, let them no longer remain an anonymous undifferentiated crowd of "professional musicians"! By all means.
The list of musical professionals who are on record as finding Le sacre a great work of art includes (but is not restricted to):
Claudio Abbado
Ernest Ansermet
Pierre Boulez
Leonard Bernstein
Elliott Carter
Robert Craft
Richard Taruskin
Charles Wuorinen
I'll leave the list short, rather than pile on.
But my point is not that these musicians are "insulted." My point is, sure, Eric Anderson sure has his musical head on straight, where all the above whom I've listed are either chumps are snake-oil pushers. Again, if one doesn't like a piece of music which someone else likes, why not do the decent and honorable thing, and simply say, "I don't like it." Just the fact that I don't like a piece which many others do, does not merit the "overrated" card.
Quote from: Apollon on April 16, 2011, 08:39:51 AM
where all the above whom I've listed are either chumps are snake-oil pushers.
And yet I think that merely invoking the word "overrated" is not meant to denigrate that long list of musicians. 95% of the time when someone says work X is overrated that poster means "on this forum you've overly praised this work which I don't admire as much as you do." And it's a valid point, there is no reason to call a ban on the word.
I like it that you acknowledge that no one is out to denigrate anyone that likes Le Sacre... but then you say that it's the same as calling that list a bunch of "chumps or snake-oil pushers". What I'm getting at is that it is bull, and a cheap fallacy to invoke time after time. Nobody means that unless they say it. Please don't infer that every time someone shits on a work or a composer you like.
For all you know the next one that says that Le Sacre is overrated will follow up with "I wish the octet was performed as often" and then you would feel rather silly for imagining them as Eric A screaming "pleasure is the law! down with modernity! the people have spoken!!" :D
Why even take issue with someone playing the "overhyped" or "overrated" card? Whether using it or reacting to it, it just means people are letting their emotions mingle with the facts. Let's be honest: whether someone is intent on knocking down or defending a composer, they're just trying to stroke their ego, trying to bolster their own doubts, or argue because, well, it's fun :) Who's trying to objectively, dispassionately, scientifically establish these rankings and ratings purely for the good of mankind? No one here.
That said,
Quote from: Apollon on April 16, 2011, 08:29:39 AM
What's overrated, is rediscovered mediocrities from the 18th and 19th centuries being touted as The World's Brilliant Composers, because, gosh, the tunes are likeable, and granny can hum 'em.
Scurrilous and scandalous, Sir! Had I not a most pressing Engagement with my tailor, I should likely have had to demand Satisfaction. ;D
I agree with you Grazioso, but I'll add that also if many serious listeners, perhaps even musicians, shared your taste, wouldn't you also feel like it was a good ego stroking too? ;D
Quote from: haydnfan on April 16, 2011, 11:47:20 AM
I agree with you Grazioso, but I'll add that also if many serious listeners, perhaps even musicians, shared your taste, wouldn't you also feel like it was a good ego stroking too? ;D
Ego stroking? Heck, if both Pierre Boulez and Leonard Bernstein liked it, that would be like an ego hard-on! ;D
Quote from: toucan on April 16, 2011, 05:50:26 AM
Well, surely even the majority isn't so deluded as tp place anything by Schnittke on a foot of equality with The Rite of Spring (?)
The use and misuse and abuse of the past by Alfred Schnittke: just as scandalous, just as egregious as in Arvo Part - and just as tastelessly done.
What they have done, these post-Soviet, post modern, post punk, post-genius, post-creative composers (Silvestrov and Kancheli also do it) is invent a new cliche, where the past is given a cheaply senstimentalist slant, while the present - modernity - is made to seem unpleasant, aggressive & ugly. Then they endlessly oppose the two, as if contrast, conflict & discontinuity were all there was to modern times.
Whether one has any time for Schnittke, Part, Kancheli, Silvestrov etc is beside the point here - I only want to point out that this description doesn't hold true for Part, except in a couple of transitional pieces from the early 70s. Despite the fact that his mature music seems on the surface to be so imbued with the spirit of early music, there is almost nothing in it which derives from that music, technically; his style and technique are self-sufficient, complete in themselves and utterly non-referential. The same cannot be said for Silvestrov, Kancheli and Schnittke, so I suppose if you have an issue with this sort of thing you will have an issue with them too, as you seem to. My point is merely that what you describe doesn't actually apply to Part.
Quote from: Luke on April 16, 2011, 02:41:11 PM
I only want to point out that this description doesn't hold true for Part, except in a couple of transitional pieces from the early 70s. Despite the fact that his mature music seems on the surface to be so imbued with the spirit of early music, there is almost nothing in it which derives from that music, technically; his style and technique are self-sufficient, complete in themselves and utterly non-referential.
That might be true for the first couple of decades of the
tintinnabuli style, but over the last decade Part has established a dialogue with tradition as strong as the other nostalgic ex-Soviet composers. Even elements of Brahms popping up in his latest orchestral works (yuck).
Quote from: Apollon on April 16, 2011, 04:59:12 AM
Well, that's a bit of sophistry, isn't it? Like somehow in another thread recently claiming that Le sacre is overrated. It is a claim that in the case of something which many people, including professional musicians, find of compelling artistic value, they're all mistaken, but that (miraculously) the truth has been granted to you, and you perceive better than they the true value of the art under advisement.
Schnittke is a composer whom I was suggested to by others, of course, nobody really knows how one is going to take the music. Sometimes if I like x composer, then I would seemingly like y composer, but it doesn't always work this way. A person can dislike Bartok and love Stravinsky, vice versa, or love both. It's all a matter of how the music hits us. Do I bring my emotions into my listening experience? Absolutely, because, for me, music should get some kind of rise out of me, which is why I listen to and like the composer I like. Sometimes it takes several listens of course, because not everything is laid out in front of you, which is why I'm not completely giving up hope on Schnittke, but taking a break from him right now. Time away from a composer has proven to be a great healer for me.
Time away when you the music doesn't 'click' for you, is good sense.
FWIW, there are a couple of Schnittke pieces which don't much do anything for me. But, I think very well indeed, of pieces more numerous than those that have struck me as 'duds'.
Quote from: Apollon on April 16, 2011, 07:16:21 PM
Time away when you the music doesn't 'click' for you, is good sense.
FWIW, there are a couple of Schnittke pieces which don't much do anything for me. But, I think very well indeed, of pieces more numerous than those that have struck me as 'duds'.
At the moment my favorite pieces of Schnittke are the piano concerti.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 16, 2011, 07:33:47 PM
At the moment my favorite pieces of Schnittke are the piano concerti.
Does that include the early Piano Concerto No. 1? I personally love all three of them, too. They could not be more different from each other, but they all are knockouts and should be performed more often. Also, as a pianist, I can really appreciate the piano writing in them and I could see myself learning one of them.
Quote from: Apollon on April 16, 2011, 08:29:39 AM
What's overrated, is rediscovered mediocrities from the 18th and 19th centuries being touted as The World's Brilliant Composers, because, gosh, the tunes are likeable, and granny can hum 'em.
Quote from: Grazioso on April 16, 2011, 11:12:09 AM
Scurrilous and scandalous, Sir! Had I not a most pressing Engagement with my tailor, I should likely have had to demand Satisfaction. ;D
Yes, that comment was a bit of straw-mannery. One doesn't have to be among the "World's Brilliant Composers" to be worth hearing. And "granny" is hardly relevant here.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 16, 2011, 07:33:47 PM
At the moment my favorite pieces of Schnittke are the piano concerti.
Mine, as well. Really love this disc of Ewa Kupiec (and Mari Lettberg) playing three concerti.
Quote from: Velimir on April 17, 2011, 12:36:10 AM
Yes, that comment was a bit of straw-mannery. One doesn't have to be among the "World's Brilliant Composers" to be worth hearing. And "granny" is hardly relevant here.
I'll accept that; but then, of course, it's bad form when all that one posts in a given composer's thread is, Pfff, this composer is overrated (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,636.msg505764.html#msg505764).
Quote from: Apollon on April 18, 2011, 08:07:31 AM
I'll accept that; but then, of course, it's bad form when all that one posts in a given composer's thread is, Pfff, this composer is overrated (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,636.msg505764.html#msg505764).
But MI explains exactly what he doesn't like about the music, and even makes it clear who he thinks has overrated the composer. You might disagree with the post (as I do) but there is really nothing shallow about MI's response.
Quote from: haydnfan on April 18, 2011, 08:15:54 AM
But MI explains exactly what he doesn't like about the music, and even makes it clear who he thinks has overrated the composer. You might disagree with the post (as I do) but there is really nothing shallow about MI's response.
If Karl didn't read my post then that's his problem. It still doesn't change how I feel about Schnittke's music. I explained that I thought his polystylism method of composition wasn't very well conceived. It lacked cohesion. What his first symphony sounded like to me was a kid in the candy store who stuffs their face with as much candy as humanly possible.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 18, 2011, 09:05:51 AM
If Karl didn't read my post then that's his problem. It still doesn't change how I feel about Schnittke's music. I explained that I thought his polystylism method of composition wasn't very well conceived. It lacked cohesion. What his first symphony sounded like to me was a kid in the candy store who stuffs their face with as much candy as humanly possible.
Well, and if you don't listen to other pieces, but still claim that this is a problem with Schnittke's music in general, that's your problem, MI. It may well be that I would not like the First Symphony any better than you. But (a) I know a number of pieces which cohere very well, with compelling musical result; and (b) you cannot throw a dead cat in this forum without hitting a dozen composers whose first symphony is not well representative of all their music.
Like Mozart or Haydn. Well Haydn's 1st symphony is pretty good but it's no London symphony.
Quote from: Apollon on April 18, 2011, 07:47:43 AM
Mine, as well. Really love this disc of Ewa Kupiec (and Mari Lettberg) playing three concerti.
I have to my amend my previous post to say my favorite Schnittke is the piano concerto (no plural). Looking back, it was the concerto for piano and strings (BIS recording) that I was so taken by. I have the cpo disc but have not found time to listen yet.
I do need at last to investigate Peer Gynt . . . .
Quote from: Apollon on April 18, 2011, 09:12:44 AM
Well, and if you don't listen to other pieces, but still claim that this is a problem with Schnittke's music in general, that's your problem, MI. It may well be that I would not like the First Symphony any better than you. But (a) I know a number of pieces which cohere very well, with compelling musical result; and (b) you cannot throw a dead cat in this forum without hitting a dozen composers whose first symphony is not well representative of all their music.
Yes, I agree, which why I said I haven't given up hope with Schnittke. What are some of these works which "cohere" so well in your opinion?
By the way, I was just using the first symphony as example. What's interesting is it took him several years to write it. Don't really understand what took him so long as it just sounds like an endless stream of random thought.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 18, 2011, 09:24:34 AM
Yes, I agree, which why I said I haven't given up hope with Schnittke. What are some of these works which "cohere" so well in your opinion?
I don't find a misplaced note in all of either of these discs (admittedly, there is one piece in common between them):[asin]B001BLR74E[/asin]
[asin]B0013V9RWC[/asin]
Quote from: Apollon on April 18, 2011, 09:27:49 AM
I don't find a misplaced note in all of either of these discs (admittedly, there is one piece in common between them):
[asin]B001BLR74E[/asin]
[asin]B0013V9RWC[/asin]
Thanks Karl. I own the BIS set of symphonies. I'll just stick with these for now. I don't feel compelled to buy any other recordings of his music right now.
Well, but it may be that with Schnittke (as with Pärt in my limited experience) that the symphonies are not where the composer's best work resides. The fact that they both have "symphony cycles" may be a false lure.
That said, I completely understand if, having shelled for the symphony box and finding that unsatisfactory, you feel no great enthusiasm for further purchases.
(And I feel sure I have the Piano Quintet sitting around here somewhere . . . .)
Quote from: Apollon on April 18, 2011, 09:35:28 AM
Well, but it may be that with Schnittke (as with Pärt in my limited experience) that the symphonies are not where the composer's best work resides. The fact that they both have "symphony cycles" may be a false lure.
That said, I completely understand if, having shelled for the symphony box and finding that unsatisfactory, you feel no great enthusiasm for further purchases.
Actually, your logic does make sense. I mean I guess I should try some other works. I'd like to hear that
Peer Gynt ballet as the audio samples sounded very interesting. I would also like to try some of his other orchestral works and maybe even the string quartets, which I heard are quite good.
(For the record: It is quite strange, really, that I find myself in the position of a Schnittke apologist. More than one piece left a negative impression early on. OTOH, I did remember seeing much of Konzert zu Dritt on the telly in St Petersburg, and it is an inarguably strong piece. Can't help thinking of Billy Wilder's "You're as good as the best thing you've done.")
Quote from: Apollon on April 18, 2011, 09:42:31 AM
(For the record: It is quite strange, really, that I find myself in the position of a Schnittke apologist. More than one piece left a negative impression early on. OTOH, I did remember seeing much of Konzert zu Dritt on the telly in St Petersburg, and it is an inarguably strong piece. Can't help thinking of Billy Wilder's "You're as good as the best thing you've done.")
What work by Schnittke made a negative impression on you?
FYI: I think the symphony cycle is important or at least was important to Schnittke or else why would he have composed nine of them (not counting the ninth symphony, but I am including the "0" numbered symphony)? Obviously, he liked the form, so he continued writing in it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 18, 2011, 09:54:55 AM
What work by Schnittke made a negative impression on you?
The first, I don't know just what piece it was. Then, I can't say I'm crazy about his cadenza(s) for the Beethoven Violin Concerto.
Kremer also came to Boston to play one or other of the Chamber Concerti, and it did not win me over, either. Which surprised me a bit, because as a rule I am a great enthusiast for Kremer.
I know that clippage can be unreliable, but . . . based on listening to clips, I'd be inclined to give the symphonies nos. 4, 6-8 a try . . . .
Quote from: Apollon on April 18, 2011, 09:42:31 AM
(For the record: It is quite strange, really, that I find myself in the position of a Schnittke apologist. More than one piece left a negative impression early on. OTOH, I did remember seeing much of Konzert zu Dritt on the telly in St Petersburg, and it is an inarguably strong piece. Can't help thinking of Billy Wilder's "You're as good as the best thing you've done.")
I find Schnittke somewhat similar to Brian in that his lunacy is considered an endearing quality by enthusiasts.
Does anyone here like the First Symphony (a piece I have not heard, BTW)?
; )
Quote from: Apollon on April 18, 2011, 10:57:44 AM
Does anyone here like the First Symphony (a piece I have not heard, BTW)?
; )
One Amazon reviewer of the Chandos recording say he'd give it 20 stars (on a scale of 5) if it were possible. I'm intrigued. I picked up that BIS set a short while ago and have yet to crack it open.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 18, 2011, 10:45:27 AM
I find Schnittke somewhat similar to Brian in that his lunacy is considered an endearing quality by enthusiasts.
;D :D ;D
I wouldn't call it lunacy but certainly Brian's idiosyncratic symphonic style is appealing.
Sarge
Schnittke doesn't strike me as odd in the way that Brian does. In fact Schnittke is not really that weird. He has one interesting and unique compositional technique, and comparing him to Brian seems inappropriate.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 18, 2011, 11:03:16 AM
One Amazon reviewer of the Chandos recording say he'd give it 20 stars (on a scale of 5) if it were possible. I'm intrigued. I picked up that BIS set a short while ago and have yet to crack it open.
200 . . . and he starts his review:QuoteOf all the pieces written for orchestra, none equal Alfred Schnittke's "Symphony No. 1."
Well, I tend to blench at this sort of enthusiasm. But I can see where one might be intrigued . . . .
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 18, 2011, 11:03:16 AM
One Amazon reviewer of the Chandos recording say he'd give it 20 stars (on a scale of 5) if it were possible. I'm intrigued. I picked up that BIS set a short while ago and have yet to crack it open.
If you do dislike the first, head straight for no.8 before giving up (I wish MI would ;_; ) - like many composers Schnittke's temperament and manner evolved substantially over his lifetime, and a lot of what may be found objectional about the first is not present in his late style.
My initial probably hot-headed response to MI which triggered this extended discussion was mainly down to my frustration about the situation presented to me. Essentially: putting a composer aside is fine, and often essential to maintaining the potential to enjoy them in future, but basically - anybody who asks somebody who likes Schnittke for a "top 10" of their favourite pieces or discs will mention very few symphonies in that list.
That Schnittke wrote a lot of symphonies some of which did not find him at his best, and some of which could not be considered great simply because of the style he chose to write them in, perhaps this is his fault. But at the same time, something feels a little off about offering a "verdict", however subjectively personal, based on material that any person would advise a listener new to the composer to avoid.
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 18, 2011, 11:33:37 AM
anybody who asks somebody who likes Schnittke for a "top 10" of their favourite pieces or discs will mention very few symphonies in that list.
I know that includes me, I would list chamber works and concertos.
What would your Schnittke "top 10" be, Sara? Or I guess maybe here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,636.msg505767.html#msg505767) is where you would largely cast those votes.
Quote from: Apollon on April 18, 2011, 11:22:54 AM
Well, I tend to blench at this sort of enthusiasm. (. . . .)
That said, though . . . I am curious even about the First Symphony, now.
Quote from: Apollon on April 18, 2011, 11:58:46 AM
What would your Schnittke "top 10" be, Sara? Or I guess maybe here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,636.msg505767.html#msg505767) is where you would largely cast those votes.
Oh I think that is pretty much my list as well. The only difference is that I haven't heard Peer Gynt, guess I should.
I should note that the symphony no.0 is probably his most appealing work to somebody who doesn't particularly enjoy the composer. It's a very catchy Shostakovich pastiche.
Quote from: Apollon on April 18, 2011, 11:58:46 AM
What would your Schnittke "top 10" be, Sara? Or I guess maybe here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,636.msg505767.html#msg505767) is where you would largely cast those votes.
Already I am cheating ::) Not 10 pieces or 10 discs, but 10 discs worth of music:
The four string quartets (a remarkably coherent cycle from beginning to end - not in style, but in the seriousness that he approaches each piece with)
The piano quintet
The string/piano trio
The cello sonatas (imperfect music, but the cello reflects the composer's essence very well)
Concerto grosso no.1 and 3
Peer Gynt
Psalms of Repentance
Choir Concerto
Viola concerto
The 8th symphony
The 2nd cello concerto
The latter two (or maybe three) will need a particular sympathy with the composer to enjoy, which makes them an awkward recommendation, but they are works in which the composer seems to remove his skin (the shielding we build up around our personality to keep us safe from perceived attacks from people discovering too much about us) and expose every nerve for examination - it almost feels sadistic to try to criticise them, especially the cello concerto.
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 18, 2011, 12:09:46 PMThe latter two (or maybe three) will need a particular sympathy with the composer to enjoy, which makes them an awkward recommendation, but they are works in which the composer seems to remove his skin (the shielding we build up around our personality to keep us safe from perceived attacks from people discovering too much about us) and expose every nerve for examination - it almost feels sadistic to try to criticise them, especially the cello concerto.
I feel this way about some of Ravel's music particularly in the slow, more lyrical sections of his music like the last movement of
Ma Mere L'Oye where the strings just play this absolutely heart-wrenchingly beautiful melody or like in
L'Enfant et les sortileges where in last movement everything becomes just so otherworldly with some of the most gorgeous melodies Ravel ever wrote. Ravel wasn't a composer that let his guard down very much, but when he did it revealed so much about the man behind the music.
The symphonies definitely aren't the best of Schnittke, and I'd always counsel people to explore the chamber music and concerti first. The first symphony I like in a "staring at a massive road accent manner", but it's very much an acquired taste, while I find the second and third pretty dull. I think he comes a bit closer to hitting his stride in the rest of the symphonies, though the static nature of the fourth again limits its appeal, and the extreme bleakness and sparseness of the later symphonies mean they're definitely not music for every day. The 9th is a strange work, but that's hardly surprising given that he was almost totally paralysed and his short-term memory was shot at the time he scribbled down his sketches for it. (It also has to be said that both extant recordings of the 9th appear to totally ignore the composer's tempo indications.)
If I had to single out a single movement from one of the symphonies to represent Schnittke at his best, I'd choose the first movement of the 8th (which, along with the 7th, would be my favourite of the nine). But for a new listener, the first violin sonata, the piano quintet, the 2nd and 3rd string quartets, the string trio, the concerto for piano and strings and the viola concerto would, I think, all provide much greater rewards, as would Peer Gynt.
I'm recovering memories of loving a cello concerto, but that was listened to quite a while ago.
Quote from: Apollon on April 18, 2011, 10:57:44 AM
Does anyone here like the First Symphony (a piece I have not heard, BTW)?
; )
Me. It might even be my favorite Schnittke piece, with the 1st Chamber Concerto and Piano Concerto close behind.
It's like a journey through the whole universe, and by the time I'm done, I'm exhausted.
Glad to see a bit of a consensus emerging here. My first encounter with Schnittke was sampling his viola concerto (ECM) in a record shop. It made a strong impression. I subsequently acquired symphonies 1-4 conducted by Rozdhy (Venezia), but never warmed to them. For all their length and complexity, they seemed gimmicky and lacking depth. But based on the above recommendations I obviously should be barking up a different tree! I do prefer orchestral music, so I'll look at acquiring the string concertos and the 8th symphony.
Recommendations for recordings? I note three for the 8th.
Quote from: eyeresist on April 18, 2011, 05:41:22 PM
Glad to see a bit of a consensus emerging here. My first encounter with Schnittke was sampling his viola concerto (ECM) in a record shop. It made a strong impression. I subsequently acquired symphonies 1-4 conducted by Rozdhy (Venezia), but never warmed to them. For all their length and complexity, they seemed gimmicky and lacking depth. But based on the above recommendations I obviously should be barking up a different tree! I do prefer orchestral music, so I'll look at acquiring the string concertos and the 8th symphony.
Recommendations for recordings? I note three for the 8th.
Tonight I'm going to listen to the 8th, I'll let you know what I think of it, eyeresist. Many people have recommended this symphony to me before.
Quote from: eyeresist on April 18, 2011, 05:41:22 PM
Recommendations for recordings? I note three for the 8th.
I'd go for Polyansky, though the coupling is nothing special. Others might prefer Rozhdestvensky. Jia on Bis is uncompetitive.
Yes, it looks like the Bis recordings have come in for a lot of criticism. A shame, as they did make a serious effort to record this little known oeuvre.
What is the name of his Orthodox sacred music work? Well, one of those he wrote? Stikheira?
Oops! No, that was Rodion Ščedrin! :D
I saw three motets on one of the Chandos recordings, the clips sounded well within the traditional sound world; very nice.
The motets on that Chandos disc are indeed most enjoyable. On a larger scale, there are the Concerto for Mixed Chorus and Penitential Psalms, about 40 and 50 minutes respectively. Again, very much within the traditional language for such works, but very well executed.
Quote from: Apollon on April 18, 2011, 11:58:46 AM
What would your Schnittke "top 10" be, Sara?
Not Sara, but I can highly recommend his third symphony.
The whole shebang, gratis:
http://www.youtube.com/v/9RWe35YrM5E
Quote from: edward on April 19, 2011, 03:46:39 AM
The motets on that Chandos disc are indeed most enjoyable. On a larger scale, there are the Concerto for Mixed Chorus and Penitential Psalms, about 40 and 50 minutes respectively. Again, very much within the traditional language for such works, but very well executed.
This is why Schnittke's "polystylism" seems quite natural to me: at least in the limited exposure I have had to his work, h e writes capably in a variety of styles, writes in a way which is sympathetically true to that style.
In a way, it surprises me that this was a while taking in music, because in (say) architecture, Historicism (a stylish 'fusion' of elements from a variety of epochs) was fairly robust in the 19th century.
Or, it may just be that Schnittke carries it off better than other composers' instances which I have heard over the years.
Quote from: Apollon on April 19, 2011, 02:45:16 AM
I saw three motets on one of the Chandos recordings, the clips sounded well within the traditional sound world; very nice.
Quote from: edward on April 19, 2011, 03:46:39 AM
The motets on that Chandos disc are indeed most enjoyable. On a larger scale, there are the Concerto for Mixed Chorus and Penitential Psalms, about 40 and 50 minutes respectively. Again, very much within the traditional language for such works, but very well executed.
Thank you, I will check them out. 8)Quote from: Apollon on April 19, 2011, 04:46:24 AM
In a way, it surprises me that this was a while taking in music, because in (say) architecture, Historicism (a stylish 'fusion' of elements from a variety of epochs) was fairly robust in the 19th century.
Historicism is still alive:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schermerhorn_Symphony_Center
Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that it had passed out of architecture. My point was the lag between how soon it was a common practice in architecture, and artful application in composition.
Quote from: Grazioso on April 19, 2011, 04:45:30 AM
Not Sara, but I can highly recommend his third symphony.
Grazie, Grazi.
Quote from: Sylph on April 19, 2011, 04:59:42 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schermerhorn_Symphony_Center
Statue titties in Tennessee? I wonder how they snuck that one through.
No one looks up at the architrave . . . .
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 19, 2011, 05:25:04 AM
Statue titties in Tennessee? I wonder how they snuck that one through.
Rednecks like boobs, too! Lord, I apologize....
Could any of you clue me in on the joke? :D Just to be sure. 8)
Quote from: Sylph on April 19, 2011, 06:36:35 AM
Could any of you clue me in on the joke? :D Just to be sure. 8)
Up in the architrave frieze, there's a nude muse to the right of the lyre in the center, turned so that her breasts greet the viewer.
The joke, though, is how classical nudes are categorically mistaken for 'pornography' in certain circles . . . .
Quote from: Apollon on April 19, 2011, 05:28:37 AM
No one looks up at the architrave . . . .
Aren't the "titties" actually on the pediment's tympanum? And the title on the frieze below which is the un-ornamented architrave? (http://www.dogproductshop.co.uk/smile/confused/confused0009.gif) (http://www.dogproductshop.co.uk)
Quote from: Apollon on April 19, 2011, 06:40:37 AM
The joke, though, is how classical nudes are categorically mistaken for 'pornography' in certain circles . . . .
(http://www.dogproductshop.co.uk/smile/animated/anim_59.gif) (http://www.dogproductshop.co.uk)
Quote from: Sylph on April 19, 2011, 06:46:53 AM
Aren't the "titties" actually on the pediment's tympanum?
Yes, well emended: tympanum titties!
Quote from: Apollon on April 19, 2011, 06:54:50 AM
Yes, well emended: tympanum titties!
Hey, did you hear the one about the female timpanist? :o
Quote from: edward on April 18, 2011, 07:23:19 PM
I'd go for Polyansky, though the coupling is nothing special. Others might prefer Rozhdestvensky.
I've pulled the trigger on the Rozhdestvensky; the coupling (with the Symphony № 8) is the Concerto Grosso № 6.
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 18, 2011, 12:09:46 PM
Already I am cheating ::) Not 10 pieces or 10 discs, but 10 discs worth of music:
The four string quartets (a remarkably coherent cycle from beginning to end - not in style, but in the seriousness that he approaches each piece with)
The piano quintet
The string/piano trio
The cello sonatas (imperfect music, but the cello reflects the composer's essence very well)
Concerto grosso no.1 and 3
Peer Gynt
Psalms of Repentance
Choir Concerto
Viola concerto
The 8th symphony
The 2nd cello concerto
The latter two (or maybe three) will need a particular sympathy with the composer to enjoy, which makes them an awkward recommendation, but they are works in which the composer seems to remove his skin (the shielding we build up around our personality to keep us safe from perceived attacks from people discovering too much about us) and expose every nerve for examination - it almost feels sadistic to try to criticise them, especially the cello concerto.
Thanks! I am guessing that Bashmet will be a good fit with the Va Cto. The Eighth Symphony and Peer Gynt I've also got on the way . . . .
Quote from: Apollon on April 20, 2011, 11:17:52 AM
I am guessing You can rest easy that Bashmet will be a good is a perfect fit with the Va Cto.
8)
--Bruce
Quote from: Apollon on April 20, 2011, 11:17:52 AM
Thanks! I am guessing that Bashmet will be a good fit with the Va Cto.
Indeedie. He recorded it at least twice, but the earlier one on Melodiya I tend not to listen to because the RCA sounds nicer. It's a remarkable piece, very intriguingly scored for an orchestra with a drastically reduced string section iirc.
I hadn't heard much of the piano concertos since my last Schnittke spree several years ago, but I have since obtained the Kupiec disc which will get a listen sometime soon. Interesting how the three works apparently span his entire career.
Quote from: Brewski on April 20, 2011, 11:26:05 AM
8)
--Bruce
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 20, 2011, 11:37:14 AM
Indeedie. He recorded it at least twice, but the earlier one on Melodiya I tend not to listen to because the RCA sounds nicer. It's a remarkable piece, very intriguingly scored for an orchestra with a drastically reduced string section iirc.
I hadn't heard much of the piano concertos since my last Schnittke spree several years ago, but I have since obtained the Kupiec disc which will get a listen sometime soon. Interesting how the three works apparently span his entire career.
Thank you both! I went ahead and sprang for that RCA disc, Sara. I think you will enjoy the Pf Cti. The Kupiec disc . . . of course, I'm a noob, and I can only hope that it is not too tame for a veteran Schnittke fan! ; )And yes, the three Pf Cti span his career, but they're all solid pieces.
Zounds, just found the Vc Cto № 2 for dirt cheap.
And now I fear I may be mistaken about the Pf Quintet, so there's another trigger pulled.
Quote from: Apollon on April 19, 2011, 05:02:25 AM
Grazie, Grazi.
Btw, did you get to listen to the third yet? I'm curious about your impressions.
Haven't yet, but will either this evening or tomorrow. Will report!
Quote from: Apollon on April 21, 2011, 05:20:16 AM
Haven't yet, but will either this evening or tomorrow. Will report!
Tchah, haven't yet listened to the Third.
Just finished listening to the Fourth, which I think would be especially impressive live. (Not that I find any fault with listening to the piece on CD!)
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 20, 2011, 11:37:14 AM
Quote from: Apollon on April 20, 2011, 11:17:52 AM
Thanks! I am guessing that Bashmet will be a good fit with the Va Cto. The Eighth Symphony and Peer Gynt I've also got on the way . . . .
Indeedie. He recorded it at least twice, but the earlier one on Melodiya I tend not to listen to because the RCA sounds nicer. It's a remarkable piece, very intriguingly scored for an orchestra with a drastically reduced string section iirc.
The Va Cto I like a great deal; has much the same quiet intensity I cherish in the Concerto for Three.
And meanwhile, I am continuing my frankly spotty survey of the symphonies (nos. 1, 4, 6, 7 & 8). Very favorably disposed to all of them so far (mid-Seventh just now); they all reflect the same musical intelligence, yet each is a distinct utterance.
Quote from: Apollon on April 26, 2011, 10:20:03 AM
Just finished listening to the Fourth, which I think would be especially impressive live. (Not that I find any fault with listening to the piece on CD!)[/font]
I've been lucky enough to hear the Fourth live (probably nearly 15 years ago, actually), and in my view it does come off very well live, particularly with the tenor soloist making sure to not have his voice standing out too much from the orchestra. With its comparatively restricted material and consistency of mood, it held a grip throughout.
Quote from: Apollon on April 26, 2011, 10:27:11 AMAnd meanwhile, I am continuing my frankly spotty survey of the symphonies (nos. 1, 4, 6, 7 & 8). Very favorably disposed to all of them so far (mid-Seventh just now); they all reflect the same musical intelligence, yet each is a distinct utterance.[/font]
Do you have the BIS box of complete symphonies? Very reasonably priced and good recordings.
No, I've been cherry-picking Chandos recordings, with either Rozhdestvensky or Valeri Polyansky. Very happy with the execution.
Quote from: Apollon on April 26, 2011, 10:39:35 AM
No, I've been cherry-picking Chandos recordings, with either Rozhdestvensky or Valeri Polyansky. Very happy with the execution.
It's nice to get the little extras too :)
Aye!
My general policy is that if there is a BIS recording of something good I get it. (I just adore BIS.) I do have a few of those Chandos discs as well, but I consider them the icing on the cake.
Unfortunately there are some real duds in the BIS set of the symphonies, particularly #6 and #8. (Oddly enough, I find myself almost preferring the BIS 7th to the Chandos one, though--I think Polyansky overplays his hand at times in that symphony, in which I would tend to prefer a very understated interpretation.)
Listened to the concerto for piano and strings, and the concerto for piano four hands from this release.
[asin]B001BLR74E[/asin]
Had listened to the first concerto earlier, and found it a delightful neo-Shostakovichian work with a particularly expressive slow movement. The concerto for piano and strings I already know from the BIS release, it is a strange work which often finds the piano pounding out tone clusters as the strings play some sort of Baroque-sounding figure. I vaguely recall liking the BIS recording a bit better, but this one is also nicely done. The concerto for piano four hands and chamber orchestra is another odd bird, that will take more exposure for me to absorb.
Quote from: edward on April 26, 2011, 10:27:43 AM
I've been lucky enough to hear the Fourth live (probably nearly 15 years ago, actually), and in my view it does come off very well live, particularly with the tenor soloist making sure to not have his voice standing out too much from the orchestra. With its comparatively restricted material and consistency of mood, it held a grip throughout.
Really an astonishing 45-minute arc. Looking forward to making its better acquaintance.
I've now spent the better part of a week with initial listens to a passel of Schnittke: five of the symphonies, three or so of the concerti grossi, the viola concerto, the two cello concerti, the piano quintet, the string trio (both as a trio, and in its Trio Sonata incarnation for string orchestra). It's even possible that I had not actually listened to the Concerto for Choir or the Requiem before last week.
And I am just jiggered; it has all been good, and a great deal of it has been exquisite. And I am still holding off on Peer Gynt until next week.
I've become a flat-out Schnittke enthusiast, an idea at which I might well have laughed ten years ago.
Quote from: Apollon on April 29, 2011, 06:59:28 AM
And I am just jiggered; it has all been good, and a great deal of it has been exquisite.
paulb told us so! ...we just wouldn't listen ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2011, 07:03:29 AM
paulb told us so! ...we just wouldn't listen ;D
Well, he said so about Pettersson, too, who wass a ssignal busst ass far ass my earss are concerned ; )
Quote from: Apollon on April 29, 2011, 06:59:28 AM
I've now spent the better part of a week with initial listens to a passel of Schnittke: five of the symphonies, three or so of the concerti grossi, the viola concerto, the two cello concerti, the piano quintet, the string trio (both as a trio, and in its Trio Sonata incarnation for string orchestra). It's even possible that I had not actually listened to the Concerto for Choir or the Requiem before last week.
And I am just jiggered; it has all been good, and a great deal of it has been exquisite. And I am still holding off on Peer Gynt until next week.
I've become a flat-out Schnittke enthusiast, an idea at which I might well have laughed ten years ago.
Well, very cool, Karl. (And FWIW, I haven't yet heard
Peer Gynt, either--and also have
Life with an Idiot in the queue.) But much great listening in the list you cite above. I do think his is one of the 20th century's major voices.
--Bruce
Quote from: Apollon on April 29, 2011, 06:59:28 AM
And I am still holding off on Peer Gynt until next week.
Quote from: Brewski on April 29, 2011, 07:39:08 AM
Well, very cool, Karl. (And FWIW, I haven't yet heard Peer Gynt, either--
Peer Gynt is arguably the greatest thing Schnittke ever wrote (and I am pretty sure Edward will back me up on that). Its expressive range is astonishing; and what's more, it's all directed toward the dramatic end of illuminating Ibsen's play. Schnittke, better than Grieg, understood that the play is a disturbing pyschodrama, and he brings out that aspect of it to haunting effect.
Thanks . . . that very impression is why I want to give that piece the time and space it deserves, which I haven't had to give it, this week past.
I received the Schnittke symphony set from MI's refusal bin today, thanks MI! :)
Where should I begin? Go right for the great 8th? Proceed chronologically? Something else?
Quote from: Apollon on April 29, 2011, 10:38:14 AM
Thanks . . . that very impression is why I want to give that piece the time and space it deserves, which I haven't had to give it, this week past.
Finally sold a tedius set of Ballet music on ebay and used the proceeds to get the Schnittke Peer Gynt. Bracing for clinical depression when it arrives next week. :-\
Quote from: haydnfan on April 29, 2011, 02:38:54 PM
I received the Schnittke symphony set from MI's refusal bin today, thanks MI! :)
Where should I begin? Go right for the great 8th? Proceed chronologically? Something else?
If you're willing to wade through his most bewildering works first, then chronological is the way to go - it offers an ideal look into how he advanced as a composer. If you're looking for something to grab you right away definitely go for 5-8. The 7th is in a similar language to the 8th, but a good deal more taut.
The First is mad, Davey — Mahler on steroids — I love it!
Quote from: Apollon on April 29, 2011, 03:12:15 PM
The First is mad, Davey — Mahler on steroids — I love it!
I have had that set for a few months but have never found time to listen to any of it. But I read the wiki page and that first symphony sounds a little frightening. Now symphony No 0, that was written around the time of the first Piano Concerto. Maybe a better place for the faint of heart. :P
The symphony no.0 is actually very good - any fan of Shostakovich or Soviet music in general would dig it. It's just not Schnittke, though :)
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 29, 2011, 03:32:26 PM
The symphony no.0 is actually very good - any fan of Shostakovich or Soviet music in general would dig it. It's just not Schnittke, though :)
Exactly the same would apply to the first piano concerto (from 1960).
Alright chronological all the way baby! :)
Just pulled the trigger on the Bis set of the symphonies. The samples all sounded very good, except the Hughes-led 9 and 0, which seemed a bit rougher in sound and execution. I think the Bis sound will make for much better listening than those old Rozhdy recordings.
At the last minute I decided not to get the Bashmet/Gutman set of viola and cello concerto, after listening to some samples of the viola work. Such fretful calisthenics were NOT what I was in the mood for.
If these work out, I think I'll check out the Choir Concerto next.
(Also ordered Pettttttttterssssssssson's 7 conducted by Segerstam, plus the Rangstrom symphony set.)
Quote from: eyeresist on May 09, 2011, 11:16:54 PM
. . . If these work out, I think I'll check out the Choir Concerto next.
Oh, you should go ahead and reel in the Choir Concerto, which (because it is a sustained essay relating to the Russian sacred choral tradition) covers musical ground quite other to the symphonies.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 10, 2011, 02:26:57 AM
Oh, you should go ahead and reel in the Choir Concerto, which (because it is a sustained essay relating to the Russian sacred choral tradition) covers musical ground quite other to the symphonies.
Agreed - it shows a different side of Schnittke's style. Also, should at some point you find yourself more in the mood for the "fretful calisthenics" :D this DVD of Bashmet playing the Viola Concerto is pretty fantastic, with Gergiev and the Vienna Philharmonic, taped at the 2000 Salzburg Festival. (I imagine it is one of the orchestra's rare forays into this composer's work.)
Plus, the superb Prokofiev and Stravinsky aren't exactly "fillers," either. ;)
[asin]B00009Q4WI[/asin]
--Bruce
Quote from: haydnfan on April 29, 2011, 03:56:20 PM
Alright chronological all the way baby! :)
I'll be interested, Davey — at whatever future time — to see if at some poin the First strikes you differently.
In fact, I think I shall cue the First back up, myself! . . .
I think that Ives fans would like that symphony Karl. The meeting of profound with frivolity in turbulent chaos seems Ivesian. But for now the 7th and 8th are my cup of tea.
The Seventh & Eighth are certainly top-shelf, below-the-green-lemon music, Davey!
Quote from: Brewski on May 10, 2011, 09:51:39 AM
this DVD of Bashmet playing the Viola Concerto is pretty fantastic, with Gergiev and the Vienna Philharmonic, taped at the 2000 Salzburg Festival. (I imagine it is one of the orchestra's rare forays into this composer's work.)
Plus, the superb Prokofiev and Stravinsky aren't exactly "fillers," either.
Except that if I never hear the Firebird again, it will be too soon.
Continuing my rediscovery of Shnittke, this time listened to a different recording of the concerto for piano 4 hands.
[asin]B000063DLP[/asin]
Schnittke's music can leave so much room for expression that a different performance can sound like a different piece. I've recently listened to another recording on Cappricio and I definitely have a different impression this time. It is hard to say if this is because this performance is different, or because I am more familiar with the piece. The concerto is fairly typical among Schnittke's concertos (in my experience) in that the orchestra seems to attack the soloist, rather than accompany it, for most of the concerto. The piano seems to be trying to establish a peaceful place, but interjections from the orchestra disrupt this, causing the piano to respond, at times in an aggressive way.
I also listened to the two cello sonatas. The first begins with a sort of prologue with the cello playing at a slow tempo in mostly consonant double stops, not unlike a passage from one of the Bach suites. But after interludes from the piano, the cello harmony becomes more and more dissonant. The second movement is a sort of demonic dance which comes to a crashing stop. The finale is a meditation which seems detached from the music that came before.
The second cello sonata is one of Schnittke's very last works, and is remarkably grim, tortured music.
I'm glad that the 'cello sonatas are getting some plays - while he is a less harmless choice than someone like Kodály, Schnittke was one of the more distinguished writers for the instrument from the past century.
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 22, 2011, 04:03:10 PM
I'm glad that the 'cello sonatas are getting some plays - while he is a less harmless choice than someone like Kodály, Schnittke was one of the more distinguished writers for the instrument from the past century.
I'm not a big fan of Kodaly's writing for cello, which seems more to me like an exercise in seeing what sounds can be extracted from the instrument than an attempt to express something. The Schnittke second sonata is just a howl of agony.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 22, 2011, 04:49:39 PM
I'm not a big fan of Kodaly's writing for cello, which seems more to me like an exercise in seeing what sounds can be extracted from the instrument than an attempt to express something. The Schnittke second sonata is just a howl of agony.
Which recording do you have of the 'cello sonatas? I've tended to prefer Ivashkin, though his performances are painfully intense.
I've just been revisiting the Gutman/Rozhdestvensky recording of the first 'cello concerto. Good as other performances are, Gutman simply owns this work IMO. I've got this recording and a live one that appeared on the short-lived Russian Revelation recording and they are simply in a different class.
Quote from: edward on May 22, 2011, 05:34:23 PM
Which recording do you have of the 'cello sonatas? I've tended to prefer Ivashkin, though his performances are painfully intense.
I've just been revisiting the Gutman/Rozhdestvensky recording of the first 'cello concerto. Good as other performances are, Gutman simply owns this work IMO. I've got this recording and a live one that appeared on the short-lived Russian Revelation recording and they are simply in a different class.
I have Ivanshkin, but I have a notion of getting the BIS recording as well. Gutman would be interesting but I haven't seen it, I should look.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 22, 2011, 06:08:19 PM
I have Ivanshkin, but I have a notion of getting the BIS recording as well. Gutman would be interesting but I haven't seen it, I should look.
There's a cheap reissue on Regis/Alto of the Gutman studio recording, coupled with the first Bashmet viola concerto. Be aware that it's in Real Soviet Sound (tm), though.
What is the Gogol suite like?
It is typical Schnittke, as you described the double piano concerto - but (again, typical of Schnittke) it sounds nothing like that piece ;D It is the composer at his more pictoral and puckish - little scenic numbers with great quality.
The suite was later expanded through a process I am not fully down on (it seems to have had a complex gestation) into his ballet "Esquisses" and in some sense duplicates that - but suite is more widely recorded than the ballet, so even if you do opt for the latter, you will possibly end up with a disc featuring the suite too. Brilliant Classics recently reissued an OOP Russian recording of the ballet under its English translation "Sketches".
I just posted in a different thread about listening to the 1st symphony - the programmatic elements are the weakest part, i.e. the wackiness of the 1st movement and the jazz improv of the 2nd. Second half of the symphony is more successful, I think. He almost out-apocalypses Mahler! And I do think Mahler's "everything in the world coming to its end" idea is applicable here.
I listened to the Segerstam recording and then to Rozhdestvensky's first (I'm not sure if the Chandos is a different performance; there seems to be some confusion as to dates and orchestras). Segerstam has better sound, but the jazz section is insufferably long. Also, he buries detail. There is a quote from Tchaikovsky's piano concerto at the beginning of the 4th movement, but this is inaudible under Segerstam.
Rozdhy's performance seems the stronger to me, more incisive, and as I said the details are clearer. Sadly, the recording suffers from grotesque spotlighting issues. The difference between the in-your-face solo instruments and the muted orchestra in the background is so extreme as to make listening a chore.
Possibly the Chandos will be closer to the ideal. Has anyone heard all these recordings?
Listened to Schnittke's Violin concerto no 1, Lubotsky on BIS. A fascinating piece. This is a student work, revised somewhat later, and was written before Schnittke developed his more idiosyncratic techniques, but is still a very original piece. The soloist and orchestra are partners, rather than adversaries as is typical with the later concertos. But the themes are developed in a very interesting way. The performance is very good, and the recorded sound very natural and vibrant, as is usually the case with BIS recordings.
[asin]B0000016GL[/asin]
Quote from: eyeresist on May 26, 2011, 06:53:37 PM
Possibly the Chandos will be closer to the ideal. Has anyone heard all these recordings?
The Chandos liner notes state this is Rozdhy's second recording. I was confused because it is the same recording team, and only the following year from the previous one (Penguin guide says it was rec. 1996, which is not true!). I listened to the Amazon samples, and of course it's much smoother than the Melodiya. Some of the aggression of the original recording is lost, but I think that's unavoidable. This is now on my wishlist.
I can't believe I'm actually liking this stuff.
Quote from: eyeresist on May 26, 2011, 06:53:37 PM
I just posted in a different thread about listening to the 1st symphony - the programmatic elements are the weakest part, i.e. the wackiness of the 1st movement and the jazz improv of the 2nd.
Very interesting reaction! I haven't troubled with programmatic elements at all, really, and taking the whole work on its own musical terms, I find I like the whole.
Cross-posted from WAYLT:Quote from: edward on June 03, 2011, 02:33:27 PM
The travesty was Rozhdestvensky's performance of the [Schnittke Ninth] in '98. which circulated around the net in execrable sound for a while. It patched bits of Schnittke's other works into the unreadable passages of the score, and allegedly helped drive the already extremely ill Schnittke--who became extremely agitated after hearing the recording--to his grave.
The current version, decoded/completed by Alexander Raskatov, seems more consistent, but I'm not impressed with either recording thus far. Schnittke had apparently wanted it to start very slowly but have a constant feel of acceleration: both recordings take the first movement too fast and the last movement too slowly for that, in my opinion.
I don't think the work lives up to the "trilogy", as it were, of 6-8, but I think the currently extant recordings don't help. (Paging Ondine, paging Eri Klas!)
After listening to Schnittke's violin concerto #1 for the 3rd or 4th time, I've really developed a fascination with this piece. A relatively convention structure with Schnittke "lunacy" sprouting up here and there. One thing I've noticed in Schnittke is his orchestration almost always eschews conventional effects, the first violin section is almost never declaiming an important melody in the conventional way, for instance. But in this very early work we actually hear the strings playing in unison for a grand statement of his quirky melody.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 04, 2011, 03:30:51 AM
Cross-posted from WAYLT:
I agree with what I've read on Amazon about the tempos needed for the 9th, i.e. slower in the first two, especially the first, which really should be a typical Schnittke adagio - we know what that sounds like, so there should be no confusion.
I've been gradually exploring my BIS box. So far, it is the first three symphonies I like the most. In 4, the sung part often sounds very silly to me, which is a drawback. I haven't given 5 much attention yet, but it seems to me the least "serious" of the symphonies. The later symphonies just haven't made a strong impression on me. They don't seem to have the cyclical unity of the earlier ones, nor the memorable moments. I suppose it's possible Polyansky does better here, though from what I've heard of his work elsewhere I suspect his efforts in Schnittke have been a little overhyped.
Back to the 9th, I found Arwel Hughes unsatisfactory in this and the 0th. If Polyansky gets those tempos right, he will certainly be the preferable option in 9.
I wonder how DavidW is getting on with the Schnittke BIS set I sent him?
Quote from: eyeresist on June 05, 2011, 05:52:06 PM
II suppose it's possible Polyansky does better here, though from what I've heard of his work elsewhere I suspect his efforts in Schnittke have been a little overhyped.
It's not so much that Polyansky is so good but that IMO the BIS 6th and 8th are dismal runthroughs of works that need to be played with some level of conviction. The BIS 7th comes over better in my view because it's a very understated work (and I'm unconvinced with Polyansky here because he overplays a lot of it).
Quote from: edward on June 05, 2011, 06:22:49 PM
It's not so much that Polyansky is so good but that IMO the BIS 6th and 8th are dismal runthroughs of works that need to be played with some level of conviction. The BIS 7th comes over better in my view because it's a very understated work (and I'm unconvinced with Polyansky here because he overplays a lot of it).
Hmm, I suppose on the Bis release the 7th is rather overshadowed by the preceding 3rd.
We are all waiting for the Chandos box!
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 05, 2011, 06:06:06 PM
I wonder how DavidW is getting on with the Schnittke BIS set I sent him?
It is good, thank you again for sending it to me. The 7th is my favorite symphony but overall I consider symphonies 6-8 as the superior symphonies, and I like the other ones but not as much. :)
Quote from: DavidW on June 05, 2011, 07:00:15 PM
It is good, thank you again for sending it to me. The 7th is my favorite symphony but overall I consider symphonies 6-8 as the superior symphonies, and I like the other ones but not as much. :)
Glad you're enjoying the music more than I did.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 04, 2011, 03:30:51 AM
Cross-posted from WAYLT:
This quote from Edward:
"The travesty was Rozhdestvensky's performance of the [Schnittke Ninth] in '98. which circulated around the net in execrable sound for a while. It patched bits of Schnittke's other works into the unreadable passages of the score, and allegedly helped drive the already extremely ill Schnittke--who became extremely agitated after hearing the recording--to his grave."How can this story be true? Was there really a 9th completed by another hand performed before Schnittke was even dead - in his very presence, even? What is the source of this story?
I've been comparing samples at Amazon (so all of the following opinions are provisional and qualified). It does indeed seem that the 8th is the dud of the BIS set - not so much that it is bad, but it is taken in a very "objective" way, a view that is perhaps valid but which is quickly blown away by more passionate performances.
6 and 7 conducted by Otaka seem to me as good as the Polyansky recordings. The Chandos has perhaps more vivid sound, but Polyansky's orchestra seems to be at a slightly lower level.
Unfortunately I was unable to compare Jarvi's 5th with the Chailly recording. Has anyone heard the Chailly?
Quote from: eyeresist on June 05, 2011, 06:39:45 PMWe are all waiting for the Chandos box!
Not me, I have not been impressed with Polyanski's recordings and prefer the BIS recording whenever I have had a comparison.
I agree that Polyansky's performances often seem a bit rough. People seem impressed by Chandos's in-your-face technicolor sound, as opposed to BIS's which is more natural and arguably a bit soft-edged. It's a damn shame Chandos hasn't allowed Rozhdestvensky to record the entire cycle.
BTW, I found the (a) source for the story of the 9th: this obituary (http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/23/arts/music-schnittke-an-iconoclast-becomes-an-icon.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm) in the NY Times.
QuoteThe Ninth was presented in Moscow last year, in a version by Mr. Rozhdestvensky that interpolated quotes from other composers' works. But there is no indication in the manuscript of any intention other than a stylistically consistent, through-composed work. Mr. Rozhdestvensky's rendering seems to turn Schnittke into a commodity: the composer is best known for mixing styles, so let's give listeners what they expect.
Schnittke was too ill to attend the performance; those close to him report that when he heard a tape, he was livid at the corruption. Some 10 days later, he suffered a stroke from which he never recovered. The Ninth Symphony was originally scheduled for the same Concertgebouw concerts as the Eighth, but performances of this version are now forbidden by the estate.
I'm still unsure of the veracity of this story. It just seems too fantastical. It certainly puts a bad light on Rozhdy, who was one of Schnittke's great supporters.
Quote from: eyeresist on June 05, 2011, 11:19:50 PM
Unfortunately I was unable to compare Jarvi's 5th with the Chailly recording. Has anyone heard the Chailly?
Yes. It's outstanding and a very easy recommendation for the 5th.
As for the Rozhdestvensky abomination, I'll upload it for evidence later today.
Here we go: https://rapidshare.com/files/1458744900/Symphony_No_9__inauthentic_edition_.MP3
It's hard to say what's worse: the terrible sound quality or the terrible things Rozhdestvensky did to the score.
When I got home last night, I realised I'd left my BIS box at work - grrr!
So I listened to my Rozhdy recording of the 4th. It is a peculiar work, and I don't much like it (though the awful mix of this particular record might be part of the reason). At the end, it suddenly gets good, when the choir comes in, and then the section with the chimes and gongs - very atmospheric. Then at the end he goes and ruins it - "I am Schnittke!"
Bought these two sets tonight, I didn't much care for the symphonies, so I went outside, which, from what I'm told, is where most of Schnittke's best music lies:
[asin]B0000016LC[/asin]
[asin]B000006E4L[/asin]
Perhaps some of our resident Schnittke fans could tell me if I've done good in selecting these recordings? Where should I go next?
This is just so haunting to me...
http://www.youtube.com/v/HKVhi-VbNqs&feature=related
Peer Gynt no question; many people would probably rate it as Schnittke's finest work; the second and third quartets are also very fine.
Throw in the piano quintet and string trio and you have most of his best chamber music (the first two violin sonatas are also excellent in my opinion, even if the second is arguably the single most abrasive work Schnittke ever wrote).
Quote from: edward on August 29, 2011, 08:59:53 PM
Peer Gynt no question; many people would probably rate it as Schnittke's finest work; the second and third quartets are also very fine.
Throw in the piano quintet and string trio and you have most of his best chamber music (the first two violin sonatas are also excellent in my opinion, even if the second is arguably the single most abrasive work Schnittke ever wrote).
Thanks for your suggestions, Edward. :) I'm always willing to find works by composers that I don't necessarily enjoy, but I have to say that listening to
Peer Gynt on YouTube made me realize that my opinion of Schnittke was done is total ignorance and haste. Here I was judging this composer solely by his symphonies, which I still haven't really given a chance yet, but the next recordings I buy of any of his symphonies will be on Chandos which I read are leaps and bounds ahead of their BIS competition.
By the way, a few years ago, the London Philharmonic under Vladimir Jurowski put together a whole festival playing Schnittke's music called
Between Two Worlds. I bet that was something to behold! Even though I didn't enjoy the work on initial hearing, I bet
Symphony No. 1 sounds absolutely insane live.
MI, can I ask how much of the BIS box you listened to? I had the impression you only listened to one or two symphonies.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 29, 2011, 05:22:05 PM
Perhaps some of our resident Schnittke fans could tell me if I've done good in selecting these recordings? Where should I go next?
You done good. Real good :)
Agree with Edward that the 2nd and 3rd quartets are the standouts. The other two are problematic, tho' I like to listen to them from time to time. (Hey, I thought you didn't like chamber music?)
Peer Gynt is one of the best things composed by anyone in the last 30 years.
As to "where next?", maybe the viola or cello concertos.
Quote from: eyeresist on August 29, 2011, 10:24:20 PM
MI, can I ask how much of the BIS box you listened to? I had the impression you only listened to one or two symphonies.
I only listened to the first three symphonies (I think). :) Not much at all and certainly not enough to make a fair, accurate judgement on any of them.
Quote from: Velimir on August 29, 2011, 10:29:25 PM
You done good. Real good :)
Agree with Edward that the 2nd and 3rd quartets are the standouts. The other two are problematic, tho' I like to listen to them from time to time. (Hey, I thought you didn't like chamber music?)
Peer Gynt is one of the best things composed by anyone in the last 30 years.
As to "where next?", maybe the viola or cello concertos.
This is good to know, Velimir. Thanks for your suggestions. I never said I didn't like chamber music. I said it wasn't a favorite genre of mine, but only in the past year have I found some works that I've really enjoyed listening to like those chamber works of Debussy, Ravel, and Poulenc, but before these composers, I really liked Bax's chamber music. I've also been giving the Villa-Lobos, Shostakovich, and Bartok SQs a fair shake in the past year.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 29, 2011, 10:31:45 PM
I only listened to the first three symphonies (I think). :) Not much at all and certainly not enough to make a fair, accurate judgement on any of them.
I generally like Schnittke, but those aren't great works. I think you're fooled by the blind adoration some posters have for every scrap that he wrote. >:D
The sets you bought has imo much better music, the Kronos Quartet is one of my favorite ensembles too and they will make Schnittke sing for you!!! :)
Quote from: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 05:10:11 AM
I generally like Schnittke, but those aren't great works.
I like the First quite well, but no, I shouldn't try to make the case that it is a Great Symphony. (I haven't heard either the Second or the Third . . . .)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2011, 05:15:35 AM
I like the First quite well, but no, I shouldn't try to make the case that it is a Great Symphony. (I haven't heard either the Second or the Third . . . .)
The First is definitely one of those works that make much less impression at home than live (guess who was in London for part of the Schnittke festival a few years back that MI mentioned). I'd certainly prefer it to the Second--which I think consensus regards as the weakest in the cycle--or the Third, which I've never warmed to.
The 4th through 8th are definitely stronger (nos 6-8 forming a sort of terribly bleak trilogy where for the most part all the filler material has been taken out and there's nothing left but the skeleton of a symphony). The 8th is the consensus pick for the best of the cycle (avoid the BiS recordings of it and the 6th, which are complete turkeys IMO); I would probably say I prefer the 7th by a fraction--it's an odd work even for Schnittke, but is a classic example to me of Luke's point about works that are completely unsymphonic on the surface, yet deeply symphonic underneath.
Quote from: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 05:10:11 AM
I generally like Schnittke, but those aren't great works. I think you're fooled by the blind adoration some posters have for every scrap that he wrote. >:D
The sets you bought has imo much better music, the Kronos Quartet is one of my favorite ensembles too and they will make Schnittke sing for you!!! :)
Yeah, like I said, I needed to get away from his symphonies and listen to his other music, which he was quite prolific so there's still a lot listen to. I'll probably go with the concertos next.
Then MI I rec the viola concerto. 0:)
Quote from: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 08:08:20 AM
Then MI I rec the viola concerto. 0:)
Yeah, Edward recommended the
Viola Concerto as well. I'll head there next. Thanks.
Quote from: edward on August 30, 2011, 07:23:29 AM
The First is definitely one of those works that make much less impression at home than live (guess who was in London for part of the Schnittke festival a few years back that MI mentioned). I'd certainly prefer it to the Second--which I think consensus regards as the weakest in the cycle--or the Third, which I've never warmed to.
The 4th through 8th are definitely stronger (nos 6-8 forming a sort of terribly bleak trilogy where for the most part all the filler material has been taken out and there's nothing left but the skeleton of a symphony). The 8th is the consensus pick for the best of the cycle (avoid the BiS recordings of it and the 6th, which are complete turkeys IMO); I would probably say I prefer the 7th by a fraction--it's an odd work even for Schnittke, but is a classic example to me of Luke's point about works that are completely unsymphonic on the surface, yet deeply symphonic underneath.
Thanks, Edward.
Just bought:
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000027X0.01.L.jpg)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AWN.01.L.jpg)
Any thoughts on these two recordings? I listened to 15 minutes worth of Symphony No. 8 on Naxos Music Library and really liked what I heard. A haunting work. Can't wait to hear these.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 09:20:03 PM
Any thoughts on these two recordings? I listened to 15 minutes worth of Symphony No. 8 on Naxos Music Library and really liked what I heard. A haunting work. Can't wait to hear these.
I've got both of 'em. Once again, you done good :)
The Rostropovich disc was the first Schnittke recording I ever got. I think the 2nd Cello Cto. is not
quite as strong as the 1st, but it's still a good piece, esp. the long passacaglia finale. The coupled
In Memoriam is an orchestration of one of his best chamber works, the Piano Quintet, and is a fine work in its own right, bringing a whole world of sound beyond what a quintet can achieve.
The 8th Symphony is one of his best late works, and may be his best symphony overall. Yeah, it's a haunting work, similar in spirit to late Shostakovich.
Pretty much agree with everything Velimir says.
I don't personally like the 2nd cello concerto (the first four movements seem a bit routine to me, even if the finale is strikingly memorable) but I appear to be in the very strong minority in that regard. In Memoriam is certainly extremely powerful--but do hear the original version of this, the piano quintet.
The 8th symphony is a fascinating and unsettling beast; with the exception of the two scherzi every movement subverts itself at every opportunity. Rare enough in itself is the use of passacaglia form for the first movement (how many first movement passacaglias are there in the symphonic literature? the only other one I can think of is Dutilleux's 1st) that climaxes at a roughly golden section point in the movement--except that the climax comes well before the center of the movement and the rest of the movement has the music slowly freezing over till nothing is left (incidentally, this movement is a superb counter to the claims I've seen that Schnittke is a poor orchestrator--it's an absolute marvel of choosing the right timbre at the right moment). The slow movement keeps feeling as if it is about to open out into Brucknerian lyricism, except that it never does; the 'big tune' is presented again and again in a bare, stark manner and never developed, while the finale completely elides all the questions posed by the previous movements by being one and a half minutes long, consisting of nothing but the ascending modal (crud, I want to say Lydian, but don't remember) scale from the end of Peer Gynt. The 6th concerto grosso isn't anything like as ambitious but it's an underrated piece; terse, sometimes vehement, sometimes bleak, and making its point very clearly.
[Random aside regarding the 8th: about a decade ago or so I was listening to this work with a musician friend, and a few minutes into the slow movement she had to stop listening; for her it had evoked all too painfully the experience of being severely clinically depressed and unable to respond emotionally to things she had previously regarded as beautiful.]
Quote from: edward on August 31, 2011, 04:59:57 AM
[Random aside regarding the 8th: about a decade ago or so I was listening to this work with a musician friend, and a few minutes into the slow movement she had to stop listening; for her it had evoked all too painfully the experience of being severely clinically depressed and unable to respond emotionally to things she had previously regarded as beautiful.]
Now THAT's creepy and depressing!
Sounds like cocaine withdrawal (not saying that that's what it was, buuuut Inevermind ;D
Still, that's not a place you want to be in,...brrrrr :'(
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 29, 2011, 10:31:45 PM
I only listened to the first three symphonies (I think). :) Not much at all and certainly not enough to make a fair, accurate judgement on any of them.
My guess is you didn't listen to the 2nd. Although it is largely a choral work (based on the Mass), I think it is definitely your sort of thing - medieval style in a modern context, and very atmospheric, certainly in the BIS recording.
I also value the 3rd symphony highly. I think it is very much in the late romantic symphonic tradition, crescendo first movement and polystylism notwithstanding. The finale gets very Brucknerian - the BIS performance is fine, but I am hoping Polyansky will take those sections more broadly.
The 1st symphony I think of as a Mahlerian blockbuster akin to M2, but it doesn't really come into focus until the last two movements. The 1st on BIS is decent, but I found the sound hid a lot of the important details I had heard on Rozhdy's early recording. I am saving up for his Chandos version!
Sorry I've been strapped for time and can't respond to all the feedback, but thank you all for your input regarding the recordings I purchased. It was much appreciated. 8)
As a corrective to my previous post, I'm listening to the 2nd now and finding it no more than the sum of its parts. It really depends if you like this sort of thing or not. Luckily for me, I do.
As with the 1st, I find the second half better than the first (starting from the nifty "Et resurrexit").
Quote from: eyeresist on August 31, 2011, 06:28:24 PM
The finale gets very Brucknerian - the BIS performance is fine, but I am hoping Polyansky will take those sections more broadly.
Chandos has abandoned its Schnittke cycle. If there is ever a Polyansky recording, it would have to come from another label, and that's unlikely (Schnittke is regarded by labels as no longer such a marketable composer.)
Quote from: eyeresist on August 31, 2011, 06:28:24 PM
The 1st symphony I think of as a Mahlerian blockbuster akin to M2, but it doesn't really come into focus until the last two movements. The 1st on BIS is decent, but I found the sound hid a lot of the important details I had heard on Rozhdy's early recording. I am saving up for his Chandos version!
Are you sure that you're not thinking of the 0th symphony? The 0th sound Mahlerian, the 1st nothing like it.
Quote from: DavidW on September 01, 2011, 07:15:55 AM
Are you sure that you're not thinking of the 0th symphony? The 0th sound Mahlerian, the 1st nothing like it.
I know whereof I speak (or type). But perhaps I'm talking about the apocalyptic sensibility more than the orchestration as such. It sounds to me like the climax of the Resurrection, taken to the
nth degree.
Anyway, isn't the 0th Shostakovichian, not Mahlerian? The quirkyness and astringency sound more like Dmitri to me.
Quote from: eyeresist on September 01, 2011, 05:30:53 PM
I know whereof I speak (or type). But perhaps I'm talking about the apocalyptic sensibility more than the orchestration as such. It sounds to me like the climax of the Resurrection, taken to the nth degree.
Anyway, isn't the 0th Shostakovichian, not Mahlerian? The quirkyness and astringency sound more like Dmitri to me.
Quirky describes the 1st, the 0th sounds romantic.
Quote from: DavidW on September 01, 2011, 05:32:37 PM
Quirky describes the 1st, the 0th sounds romantic.
I think it's the other way around. We'll have to agree to disagree.
I waited a while to find a reasonably priced copy of this one:
[asin]B00000E4NN[/asin]
Both pieces strike me as strong!
I know I lambast Schnittke a lot, but I pulled out the 2 Cello Concertos (Gutman 1/Slava 2) and quite enjoyed both on the rainy day yesterday. Yes, Schnittke should ONLY be played on rainy days! ;)
I especially liked the last movement of No.1,... is it a Chorale?, a Passacaglia?,... either way, it is very nice for Schnittke.
Let me ask you, what are your fav Schittke CONCERTOS? How do you feel about the Viola Concerto as compared to the other late string concertos? I find these two Cello Concertos to be the Sons&Heirs of all cello concertos that came before them (how much more gloomy could music be?).
I also enjoyed the Symphony No.6 (BIS), very nice and gloomy. Schnittke vs. Pettersson??
I really dig the Concerto for Three. Must load that onto the player soon . . . .
All of a sudden I'm curious about Symphonies 1 & 3. Anyone want to help me out here? Yea or nay, what's good/what's bad...
I like no. 1, but it's not everybody's money. I think it works, kitchen sink effort and all.
Quote from: snyprrr on December 06, 2011, 07:01:13 AM
All of a sudden I'm curious about Symphonies 1 & 3. Anyone want to help me out here? Yea or nay, what's good/what's bad...
Symphony No. 1 is a disaster through and through. I can't even believe I sat through most of it. Here's what it sounds like me:
http://www.youtube.com/v/23Te7QAsH6w
I think the Symphony No. 1 is Ives on crack, and it takes a conductor as crazy as the piece to get it right. Segerstam is just the guy for it, with that logic. He makes it all sound as crazy and as fanciful as it really is. That, and the jazz improvisation in the second movement in that recording cannot be bettered! Carl-Axel Dominique seems to be just as crazy as Segerstam is. It's a symphony that's a lot of fun that might take some getting used to or may not be for everyone, but do give it a try.
Quote from: lescamil on December 06, 2011, 12:59:19 PM
I think the Symphony No. 1 is Ives on crack, and it takes a conductor as crazy as the piece to get it right. Segerstam is just the guy for it, with that logic. He makes it all sound as crazy and as fanciful as it really is. That, and the jazz improvisation in the second movement in that recording cannot be bettered! Carl-Axel Dominique seems to be just as crazy as Segerstam is. It's a symphony that's a lot of fun that might take some getting used to or may not be for everyone, but do give it a try.
Yes! I did the jazz improvisation part in the Segerstam recording. That was damn good. Too bad I can't say much for the rest of the symphony.
Segerstam's recording of Schnittke's 1st is awfull. A real mess. This work is crazy, I agree, it's a very bizarre pudding of everything, but it's also a very deep and poetic work. To understand this you need to listen to Rojdestvenski's recording for Chandos. By the way, according to Schnittke's friend and biographer Alexander Ivashkin, many of the recordings made by BIS during the 90s were considered as complete crap by Schnittke himself.
Quote from: Joaquimhock on December 07, 2011, 12:25:01 AM
Segerstam's recording of Schnittke's 1st is awfull. A real mess. This work is crazy, I agree, it's a very bizarre pudding of everything, but it's also a very deep and poetic work. To understand this you need to listen to Rojdestvenski's recording for Chandos. By the way, according to Schnittke's friend and biographer Alexander Ivashkin, many of the recordings made by BIS during the 90s were considered as complete crap by Schnittke himself.
Hmmm... interesting.
Yes; I've heeded well the voice of a number of neighbors whose musical opinion I regard well, where they have cautioned against the BIS set.
Note this well, O snypsss:Quote from: Joaquimhock on December 07, 2011, 12:25:01 AM
Segerstam's recording of Schnittke's 1st is awfull. A real mess. This work is crazy, I agree, it's a very bizarre pudding of everything, but it's also a very deep and poetic work. To understand this you need to listen to Rojdestvenski's recording for Chandos.
Emphasis mine. The Rozhdestvensky is the recording I've heard, and I think very highly of the piece. And thanks to Joaquim for the germane reminder that, if I have heard only one performance of a work, and if that one performance be none the best, I really cannot judge the merits of the piece fairly: I can only report that I did not think well of that performance/event.
Here's what Ivashkin writes in his biography (Phaidon) about the BIS recordings:
"The composer was very happy initially, but later on his relationship with Bahr (BIS CEO) changed quite dramatically, with Schnittke insisting on making special comments on the cover of each disc to the effect that the composer did not necessarily like this particular performance of this work or works" Page 196.
I have the Segerstam, but had to look up Rozhdestvensky, and it's there, in one video as well! :o
Hehe, let's see... >:D
Quote from: Joaquimhock on December 07, 2011, 12:25:01 AM
Segerstam's recording of Schnittke's 1st is awfull. A real mess. This work is crazy, I agree, it's a very bizarre pudding of everything, but it's also a very deep and poetic work. To understand this you need to listen to Rojdestvenski's recording for Chandos. By the way, according to Schnittke's friend and biographer Alexander Ivashkin, many of the recordings made by BIS during the 90s were considered as complete crap by Schnittke himself.
I think the first symphony is complete crap, so the composer is right about that. ;) :D
Wow, such harsh words about the Symphony No. 1! I guess that is one piece that just works for me. I don't really care for the Rozhdestvensky recording. It makes the piece sound too sane, hehe. I will maintain that the piece is not supposed to sound 'nice', and it needs a nutjob like Segerstam.
Quote from: Joaquimhock on December 07, 2011, 08:18:33 AM
Here's what Ivashkin writes in his biography (Phaidon) about the BIS recordings:
"The composer was very happy initially, but later on his relationship with Bahr (BIS CEO) changed quite dramatically, with Schnittke insisting on making special comments on the cover of each disc to the effect that the composer did not necessarily like this particular performance of this work or works" Page 196.
Surely this applies to the Tadaaki Otaka and Segerstam recordings. For those with Eri Klas, I thought that Schnittke had extensively coached the conductor and so the result should have been in keeping with his vision.
Quote from: Greg on December 07, 2011, 04:46:55 PM
I have the Segerstam, but had to look up Rozhdestvensky, and it's there, in one video as well! :o
Hehe, let's see... >:D
I liked the Segerstam better. Honestly can't see a recording topping that one.
Quote from: Greg on December 09, 2011, 06:58:44 AM
I liked the Segerstam better. Honestly can't see a recording topping that one.
Interesting, Greg. That's part of the BIS set, though, yes? So it's the one which has really set John's teeth on edge.
Of course, he's just bein' a hayta ; )
Quote from: karlhenning on December 09, 2011, 07:06:44 AM
Interesting, Greg. That's part of the BIS set, though, yes? So it's the one which has really set John's teeth on edge.
Of course, he's just bein' a hayta ; )
I really wish I could get into Schnittke but his orchestral music does very little for me. I did enjoy
Peer Gynt though. I've been enjoying his SQs too, but I haven't listened to any of them in awhile. I think Schnittke's musical language lends itself better to chamber ensembles. Not only do you get more intimacy, but there's something more revealing and sparse that I find more intriguing.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 09, 2011, 06:56:56 PM
I really wish I could get into Schnittke but his orchestral music does very little for me. I did enjoy Peer Gynt though. I've been enjoying his SQs too, but I haven't listened to any of them in awhile. I think Schnittke's musical language lends itself better to chamber ensembles. Not only do you get more intimacy, but there's something more revealing and sparse that I find more intriguing.
I do remember enjoying all 4 Violin Concertos. And the 2 Cello Concertos are great for a dark and stormy night!
But I have ALWAYS been horrified of the Piano Concerto, the one with all the 'heart attack' stabs. :-\
I know, I know ::),...
Everybody seems to like Peer Gynt though. Huh.
Quote from: snyprrr on December 09, 2011, 08:24:08 PM
But I have ALWAYS been horrified of the Piano Concerto, the one with all the 'heart attack' stabs. :-\
Which one? He does have three, you know, plus his Music for Piano and Chamber Orchestra. I assume you mean the Concerto for Piano and Strings. You may like the early Piano Concerto No. 1, which is like a beefier Shostakovich concerto, but without so much of a feeling of a Hanon exercise. I happen to love all 4 of the works for piano and orchestra, even the thorny Concerto for Piano 4 Hands and the serial Music for Piano and Chamber Orchestra. Schnittke definitely loved the piano.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 09, 2011, 06:56:56 PM
I really wish I could get into Schnittke but his orchestral music does very little for me. I did enjoy Peer Gynt though. I've been enjoying his SQs too, but I haven't listened to any of them in awhile.
That's interesting, John. What about the choral music (the Concerto for Choir and the Fourth Symphony, e.g.)? Have you given the piano concerti a go?
Quote from: lescamil on December 09, 2011, 08:56:07 PM
Which one? He does have three, you know, plus his Music for Piano and Chamber Orchestra. I assume you mean the Concerto for Piano and Strings. You may like the early Piano Concerto No. 1, which is like a beefier Shostakovich concerto, but without so much of a feeling of a Hanon exercise. I happen to love all 4 of the works for piano and orchestra, even the thorny Concerto for Piano 4 Hands and the serial Music for Piano and Chamber Orchestra. Schnittke definitely loved the piano.
Aye, thar's the one! ;) Haven't heard the other three.
Quote from: karlhenning on December 10, 2011, 03:37:50 AM
That's interesting, John. What about the choral music (the Concerto for Choir and the Fourth Symphony, e.g.)? Have you given the piano concerti a go?
I haven't heard any of those works, Karl. What recordings would you recommend?
I could rave about the Choir Concerto a bit, but I'll leave that to Karl. Instead, I'll rave about the Piano Quintet (and it's arrangement for orchestra In Memorian...)! Ever since I saw this work performed, it is a piece that has haunted my subconscious for years. I was familiar with the work before seeing it, but when I saw it, it was like an epiphany. In Memoriam... is the much more atmospheric arrangement for orchestra, which expands on the already extremely varied timbres of the Piano Quintet. That BACH waltz in the second movement is absolute genius, and that ethereal ending is, in a word, cathartic.
Quote from: Joaquimhock on December 07, 2011, 12:25:01 AM
Segerstam's recording of Schnittke's 1st is awfull. A real mess. This work is crazy, I agree, it's a very bizarre pudding of everything, but it's also a very deep and poetic work. To understand this you need to listen to Rojdestvenski's recording for Chandos. By the way, according to Schnittke's friend and biographer Alexander Ivashkin, many of the recordings made by BIS during the 90s were considered as complete crap by Schnittke himself.
I'm confused. I listened to the beginnings of Segerstam, RozhMEL, & RozhCHAN, and either Segerstam takes the bells at half speed, or Rozh takes things really really quickly (in both). Even if it's wrong, I preferred the Segerstam. This sounds crazy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoaTVgvxm-M
uh... not that it's not supposed to, haha!
Quote from: karlhenning on December 07, 2011, 06:12:26 AM
Yes; I've heeded well the voice of a number of neighbors whose musical opinion I regard well, where they have cautioned against the BIS set.
The set is so cheap (or was when I bought it), that it's still worth picking up. Nothing in it is really BAD; it's just that some of the performances are less effective than you'd hope.
I was going to post in the Lutoslawski thread - and still may - but I finally picked up the EMI Gemini Lutoslawski set with his two symphonies. Listening to the second movement of symphony 2 was a revelation in terms of "Good Lord, so THAT's where Schnittke got it from!"
I am aware that there are all these connections in modern music which I am still missing, largely due to lack of money.
EDIT: Having finished listening to that set, nope, I still don't much care for Lutoslawski. I like the Funeral Music, and the 2nd symphony has some strong stuff, but the concerto for orchestra continues to bore me, and the elements I do like of Luto's music appear to stronger effect in Schnittke. Yay Alfred!
I am severely out of compliance . . . I've still not yet listened to Peer Gynt : (
Quote from: karlhenning on January 24, 2012, 12:06:21 PM
I am severely out of compliance . . . I've still not yet listened to Peer Gynt : (
:'( Say it ain't so, Karl, say it ain't so!
I bought some more (gulp) Schnittke but I have heard these Chandos recordings are much better performed than the BIS recordings:
[asin]B000000B0P[/asin]
[asin]B000000AZA[/asin]
[asin]B0001IXRS8[/asin]
[asin]B00004TZSG[/asin]
[asin]B00005B1D5[/asin]
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 07, 2012, 07:16:34 PM
I bought some more (gulp) Schnittke but I have heard these Chandos recordings are much better performed than the BIS recordings:
[asin]B000000B0P[/asin]
[asin]B000000AZA[/asin]
[asin]B0001IXRS8[/asin]
[asin]B00004TZSG[/asin]
[asin]B00005B1D5[/asin]
I sure wish their 6 & 7 were together like on BIS. I'm sure it's this BIS that Schnittke didn't want his name on, but, I don't know,... is it really that bad? How can I tell? Who has both?
Quote from: Mirror Image on
Today at 12:16:34 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=636.msg608362#msg608362)
I bought some more (gulp) Schnittke but I have heard these Chandos recordings are much better performed than the BIS recordings[....]
I've nos. 4, 6 & 7 of that lot, John. So I do heartily (and musically) approve : ) I should start with the Fourth, but then, I am a sucker for Schnittke's choral writing, which draws so heavily from the Russian Orthodox liturgical choral tradition. Greg, I don't recall where you asked the question where you should start . . . I am half inclined to suggest starting with the Fourth or the Concerto for Choir.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 08, 2012, 03:42:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on Today at 12:16:34 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=636.msg608362#msg608362) I bought some more (gulp) Schnittke but I have heard these Chandos recordings are much better performed than the BIS recordings[....]
I've nos. 4, 6 & 7 of that lot, John. So I do heartily (and musically) approve : ) I should start with the Fourth, but then, I am a sucker for Schnittke's choral writing, which draws so heavily from the Russian Orthodox liturgical choral tradition.
Greg, I don't recall where you asked the question where you should start . . . I am half inclined to suggest starting with the Fourth or the Concerto for Choir.
It took me a while to figure out where I first posted also, Karl.
Got a few suggestions from Jens, and now with your
Fourth or the
Concerto for Choir pics I have plenty to begin with. And a nice eclectic group of symphonic, choral and concerto.
Thanks a bunch.
Jens's suggestion of the Viola Concerto is sound, to be sure. And dang it, I don't know the Faust Cantata . . . .
@TheGSMoeller:
Do you like chamber music? His string (or piano) trio, piano quintet and SQ2 are all worthy and fairly accessable.
[asin]B00004YYQV[/asin] [asin]B000007N39[/asin]
The former has quite a few makeweights, but in the major works are very good recordings.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 08, 2012, 05:20:47 AM
I don't know the Faust Cantata . . . .
Here is Mephisto's great aria,
Es geschah, a demented tango, both thrilling and chilling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR78SQeRiC4
Sarge
Quote from: karlhenning on March 08, 2012, 03:42:17 AM
I've nos. 4, 6 & 7 of that lot, John. So I do heartily (and musically) approve : ) I should start with the Fourth, but then, I am a sucker for Schnittke's choral writing, which draws so heavily from the Russian Orthodox liturgical choral tradition.
Thanks, Karl. I'm actually going to start with the 2nd because even in the BIS series this work intrigued me.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on
Today at 01:40:35 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=636.msg608552#msg608552)
Here is Mephisto's great aria,
Es geschah, a demented tango, both thrilling and chilling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR78SQeRiC4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR78SQeRiC4)
Sarge
A demented Tango (even if not in Boston): what's not to like?
Quote from: Mirror Image on
Today at 02:04:49 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=636.msg608562#msg608562)
Thanks, Karl. I'm actually going to start with the 2nd because even in the BIS series this work intrigued me.
That's cool. I don't believe I know the Second at all.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 08, 2012, 10:10:17 AMThat's cool. I don't believe I know the Second at all.
It's a choral symphony, Karl. It's subtitle is
St. Florian as it was inspired by the composer's visit there.
Bought two more Schnittke recordings one praised by Karl and the other to add to the Polyansky pile I have coming:
[asin]B001BLR74E[/asin]
[asin]B00000IYNB[/asin]
Edit: I really want Frank Strobel's Schnittke film music recordings too.
Quote from: Lethevich on March 08, 2012, 08:26:24 AM
@TheGSMoeller:
Do you like chamber music? His string (or piano) trio, piano quintet and SQ2 are all worthy and fairly accessable.
[asin]B00004YYQV[/asin] [asin]B000007N39[/asin]
The former has quite a few makeweights, but in the major works are very good recordings.
I love chamber music, I'll add these to the (large) list, although I have a tendency to judge composers based on their chamber pieces (weird habit of mine) so I may hit these recordings early.
Thanks!
Quote from: Lethevich on March 08, 2012, 08:26:24 AM
@TheGSMoeller:
Do you like chamber music? His string (or piano) trio, piano quintet and SQ2 are all worthy and fairly accessable.
[asin]B00004YYQV[/asin] [asin]B000007N39[/asin]
The former has quite a few makeweights, but in the major works are very good recordings.
These two cd's are very goog indeed. Schnittke is at his best when he uses his own principle of polystylism : the mix of a sweet and nostalgic theme within a context of cold and savage music produces an incredible effect. In this respect, the String Trio on the Naxos cd you mention here is one of his best works. I think he first used this principle in his first Concerto for piano and strings in 1960 (also one of his best works IMO). It's his trademark which, I believe, is inspired by Prokofiev's 1st Violin Sonata and 2nd Piano Concerto (mvt I).
However, not all his pieces are written in this polystylistic vein : the others are black on black, like endless wailings which I find really annoying. That's incidentally the case of all his symphonies which are, with some other pieces like the 3rd Violin Concerto, the 1st Cello Concerto or the Violin Sonatas (but for the 1st), etc, the bad part of his musical production. Well, the 1st is polystylistic, but I don't remember why, it doesn't work there.
The best works, IMO (not H), in a chronological order :
Concerto for piano & strings (1960)
Voices of Nature (for choir & xylophon) (1972)
Congratulatory Rondo (for violin & piano) (1974)
Concerto grosso nr.1 (1977)
Piano Concerto (1979)
String Quartet nr.2 (1980)
In Memoriam (for orchestra) (1984)
Violin Concerto nr.4 (1984)
String Quartet nr.3 (1984)
String Trio (1985)
Concerto for piano 4-hands (1988)
and my favorite piece : Not a Midsummer Night's Dream (1985)
Each of them is a big emotional blow. You don't forget it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 07, 2012, 07:16:34 PM
I bought some more (gulp) Schnittke but I have heard these Chandos recordings are much better performed than the BIS recordings:
Very much true of 6-8; I lost the Chandos 2 & 4 many years ago and have never heard the BIS 2 (although I heartily disliked the work anyway).
4 was the first of the Schnittke symphonies I heard and its intense exploration of a single mood I've always found very effective; as Karl says, Schnittke's attachment to the Russian choral tradition is very obvious in many works, and often brought out the best in him.
6 is probably the most 'difficult' of all Schnittke's works (think of it as a the skeleton of a symphony with almost all of the flesh dissolved away), but the Chandos is certainly better than the emotionally dead run-through on BIS.
7's an elusive, quirky piece that reminds me of Schnittke's expressed admiration for some of the more elliptical Shostakovich quartets (#7, #11 and #14 in particular, if I remember correctly). I think it still awaits a satisfactory reading: the BIS is more successful than that of the 6th, purely because it's a work that demands understated performance, which is where I think Polyansky falls down -- he plays it as if it's like other Schnittke, but it isn't.
8 is definitely the symphony I'd suggest for people unconvinced about the composer: it's a lot more attractive on the surface than its immediate predecessors, with the gradual freezing over of the first movement's passacaglia-like theme and the third movement's Mahler-cum-Bruckner echoes being particularly direct in their appeal. (Despite the more attractive facade, though, I think it's at least as disturbing a work as the 6th.)
Other orchestral Schnittke that I'd recommend as representing Schnittke at his best: the 1979 piano concerto (which you've ordered), the viola concerto, the
Faust Cantata (forget the operatic version, it was cobbled together from an incomplete score and heavily cut). But I still think his most consistent area was chamber music.
Quote from: edward on March 08, 2012, 02:38:38 PM
Very much true of 6-8; I lost the Chandos 2 & 4 many years ago and have never heard the BIS 2 (although I heartily disliked the work anyway).
4 was the first of the Schnittke symphonies I heard and its intense exploration of a single mood I've always found very effective; as Karl says, Schnittke's attachment to the Russian choral tradition is very obvious in many works, and often brought out the best in him.
6 is probably the most 'difficult' of all Schnittke's works (think of it as a the skeleton of a symphony with almost all of the flesh dissolved away), but the Chandos is certainly better than the emotionally dead run-through on BIS.
7's an elusive, quirky piece that reminds me of Schnittke's expressed admiration for some of the more elliptical Shostakovich quartets (#7, #11 and #14 in particular, if I remember correctly). I think it still awaits a satisfactory reading: the BIS is more successful than that of the 6th, purely because it's a work that demands understated performance, which is where I think Polyansky falls down -- he plays it as if it's like other Schnittke, but it isn't.
8 is definitely the symphony I'd suggest for people unconvinced about the composer: it's a lot more attractive on the surface than its immediate predecessors, with the gradual freezing over of the first movement's passacaglia-like theme and the third movement's Mahler-cum-Bruckner echoes being particularly direct in their appeal. (Despite the more attractive facade, though, I think it's at least as disturbing a work as the 6th.)
Other orchestral Schnittke that I'd recommend as representing Schnittke at his best: the 1979 piano concerto (which you've ordered), the viola concerto, the Faust Cantata (forget the operatic version, it was cobbled together from an incomplete score and heavily cut). But I still think his most consistent area was chamber music.
Thanks for your feedback, Edward. I do own all of Schnittke's SQs as well (the Kronos Quartet set on Nonesuch) as well and I've enjoyed it. Next on my Schnittke buying list will be
Faust Cantata, the film music (Strobel) and the
Requiem.
I'm surprised to not see much love for Peer Gynt here. What a colossal ballet! I'm not sure about it being a ballet but I read somebody referred to it as a two-hour symphony. I'm inclined to agree. I don't see how anyone could dance to this work.
No love for the 3rd symphony? :(
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 08, 2012, 03:32:17 PM
I'm surprised to not see much love for Peer Gynt here.
My excuse: I simply haven't listened to it yet.
Sarge
DO IT !!!
Edit: Oh gee, master out the out-of-context top-of-new-page posts strikes again.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2012, 03:44:11 PM
My excuse: I simply haven't listened to it yet.
Sarge
I think you'll dig it, Sarge. Do you own the recording of it?
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 08, 2012, 03:58:21 PM
I think you'll dig it, Sarge. Do you own the recording of it?
I do. Klas. I think it was Lethe who suggested it. I've had it for months.
Sarge
Quote from: Lethevich on March 08, 2012, 03:56:29 PM
DO IT !!!
Are you suggesting something naughty? :D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2012, 04:13:06 PM
I do. Klas. I think it was Lethe who suggested it. I've had it for months.
Sarge
GO LISTEN TO IT NOW!!!!
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on
Today at 09:13:06 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=636.msg608782#msg608782)
I do. Klas. I think it was Lethe who suggested it. I've had it for months.
Sarge
(* raises hand, too *)
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 08, 2012, 04:16:57 PM
GO LISTEN TO IT NOW!!!!
I wish I could. But it's late here and I've had one too many scotch and sodas. Time for bed. I'll give it a listen tomorrow...if I can find it. It's in one of my unlistened-to CD piles...somewhere :D I
am in the mood for more Schnittke. Mrs. Rock had the
Faust Cantata on repeat all evening. Great piece.
Sarge
Quote from: karlhenning on March 08, 2012, 04:20:24 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on Today at 09:13:06 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=636.msg608782#msg608782) I do. Klas. I think it was Lethe who suggested it. I've had it for months.
Sarge
(* raises hand, too *)
Karl, do you use the "toggle view" button when you post?
A button I have never used...
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2012, 04:21:12 PM
I wish I could. But it's late here and I've had one too many scotch and sodas. Time for bed. I'll give it a listen tomorrow...if I can find it. It's in one of my unlistened-to CD piles...somewhere :D I am in the mood for more Schnittke. Mrs. Rock had the Faust Cantata on repeat all evening. Great piece.
Sarge
You make this ol' Southerner proud.
Yup. Peer Gynt is a monster for sure, the bastard stepson of Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet and Mahler's symphonies, with guest genes from the act 3 Tristan prelude and others. The first two acts are IMO eminently danceable music and then things go really weird ... just as they do in Ibsen's play.
Great piece and one of Schnittke's best; I only didn't mention it as it is technically a stage work. It's also--despite its sprawling nature--a very tightly constructed work with in fact very little thematic material. One of the reasons why the funeral scene in act 3 is so shocking is that (if I'm not very much mistaken, and when it comes to musical analysis I usually am!) it's the first new material brought into the work in over an hour.
Oh, and the liner notes in the BIS recording might just be the best and most informative ones I've ever seen.
Quote from: edward on March 08, 2012, 04:39:12 PMOh, and the liner notes in the BIS recording might just be the best and most informative ones I've ever seen.
Yes, the booklet is informative and most definitely value added. Only enhances my appreciation for the work.
Quote from: Mirror Image on
Today at 09:22:25 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=636.msg608790#msg608790)
Karl, do you use the "toggle view" button when you post?
Sometimes. (Not in these two cases, for instance.)
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 08, 2012, 04:22:25 PM
Karl, do you use the "toggle view" button when you post?
And this is straight "Quick Reply."
Go figure.
And yet … they all look the same in Tapatalk
Quote from: eyeresist on March 08, 2012, 03:42:53 PM
No love for the 3rd symphony? :(
I think it's his most integrated and serious Symphony. Very gloomy. Me likey!! :-*
Extra gloom for the gentleman at table 4, Gaston!
Listened to Polyansky's performance of the 2nd today and I'm very impressed with it. I like a lot better than Segerstam's. I think much of it had to do with how it was conducted (tempi, overall pacing) and the atmospheric sound of the recording. It really brought the whole piece into a new light for me. It's still a strange brew to be certain, but through this performance I have a better understanding of the structure of the work.
Finished Schnittke's Symphony No. 4 awhile ago and I have never been so disappointed with a piece of music in my life. I mean if it was half the length then it might have been more interesting but this symphony is 45 minutes! I won't be wasting my time with this one again. I did like the 2nd a good bit but as I wrote above I've heard it before and even enjoyed it then. I don't plan on giving these Chandos recordings away, but it's not looking good for me and Schnittke right now or at least with his symphonies anyway. I do like his ballet Peer Gynt a good bit but it had some rhythmic drive to it which helped it considerably. I don't think I'll ever understand this fourth symphony at all, but, then again, I don't think I want to understand it. I'm not a listener who likes everything to fall into his lap but I am a listener who likes some kind of forward momentum happening in piece of music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 10, 2012, 06:08:20 PM
Finished Schnittke's Symphony No. 4 awhile ago and I have never been so disappointed with a piece of music in my life. I mean if it was half the length, then it might have been more interesting but this symphony is 45 minutes! I won't be wasting my time with this one again. I did like the 2nd a good bit but as I wrote above I've heard it before and even enjoyed it then. I don't plan on giving these Chandos recordings away, but it's not looking good for me and Schnittke right now or at least with his symphonies anyway. I do like his ballet Peer Gynt a good bit but it had some rhythmic drive to it which helped it considerably. I don't think I'll ever understand this fourth symphony at all, but, then again, I don't think I want to understand it. I'm not a listener who likes everything to fall into his lap but I am a listener who likes some kind of forward momentum happening in piece of music.
Ouch, his 4th made my short list of recordings I am considering from Schnittke. :-\
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 10, 2012, 06:26:35 PM
Ouch, his 4th made my short list of recordings I am considering from Schnittke. :-\
Yeah, I just thought it was a colossal mess. I mean the music went nowhere. It makes me appreciate a composer like Ligeti even more. That guy was freakin' amazing! There was nothing happening in Schnittke's music to where I took notice. It just all flew by me and nothing stuck out at all. Not a snippet of a melody, rhythm, or harmony. Time to go back to Shostakovich. That was a nice little break. :)
Yes, MI, the 4th is a pretty dreery experience.
To be honest, I am getting bored with Schnittke now. Not sure how much repeat value he has.
I cannot believe I'm reading this: the Fourth — "dreary"? Not to my ears at all.
Sheesh, reminds me of times I've heard people dismiss Russian Orthodox liturgical music as "dreary," because their idea of "sacred music" is "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands."
Quote from: eyeresist on March 11, 2012, 05:08:50 PM
Yes, MI, the 4th is a pretty dreery experience.
To be honest, I am getting bored with Schnittke now. Not sure how much repeat value he has.
I just don't think I'm brave enough to continue with Schnittke's music.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 10, 2012, 06:26:35 PM
Ouch, his 4th made my short list of recordings I am considering from Schnittke. :-\
Greg, if you enjoyed my Passion, I have every confidence that the Schnittke Fourth will meet your ears' favor.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 11, 2012, 05:40:32 PM
I just don't think I'm brave enough to continue with Schnittke's music.
Did you at least listen to the first piano concerto? His Shostakovich-like works should be enough for you.
Quote from: lescamil on March 11, 2012, 06:45:31 PM
Did you at least listen to the first piano concerto? His Shostakovich-like works should be enough for you.
I'm definitely going to listen to it.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 11, 2012, 05:13:59 PMI cannot believe I'm reading this: the Fourth — "dreary"? Not to my ears at all.
Sheesh, reminds me of times I've heard people dismiss Russian Orthodox liturgical music as "dreary," because their idea of "sacred music" is "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands."
Actually, I have a CD of Russian liturgy (with clanging bells and everything) which I think is pretty awesome. You can almost smell the incense.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 11, 2012, 06:02:07 PM
Greg, if you enjoyed my Passion, I have every confidence that the Schnittke Fourth will meet your ears' favor.
That's all the proof I need to continue with my Schnittke plunge. Thanks, Karl. :)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 11, 2012, 07:46:45 PM
That's all the proof I need to continue with my Schnittke plunge. Thanks, Karl. :)
I wish I could like the 4th, but it's completely directionless. I mean I realize this kind of compositional writing is apart of the musical avant-garde or whatever, but I'm almost appalled by the lack of rhythm, melody, and harmony. I hear all of these things and more in Ligeti's music. Schnittke just seemed like he was after shock value instead of trying to make meaningful music. I know he's said he is grateful to anyone that listens and performs his music, but I guess if I composed the way he did, I would be too. :D Greg, proceed with caution. That's all I'll say.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 11, 2012, 07:58:52 PMI know he's said he is grateful to anyone that listens and performs his music, but I guess if I composed the way he did, I would be too.
Oh, that is WICKED! :D
Greg, you've got mail. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 11, 2012, 11:58:52 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=636.msg609877#msg609877)
Schnittke just seemed like he was after shock value instead of trying to make meaningful music.
What a peculiar thing for you to say in a discussion about the Fourth.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 12, 2012, 02:16:44 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 11, 2012, 11:58:52 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=636.msg609877#msg609877) Schnittke just seemed like he was after shock value instead of trying to make meaningful music.
What a peculiar thing for you to say in a discussion about the Fourth.
Agreed...unless the Polyansky performance is drastically different from the BIS version. (I owned it once, but had it stolen almost as soon as I bought it. Now I'm thinking I should look for another copy; his performances are so different that maybe MI's hearing something unrelated to what I got used to with the BIS recording.)
Certainly in the BIS reading it's perhaps the most shock-free of all of his symphonies; only the brief
Vivo section* disturbing the mood of the work--which is much the same to me as that of the
Penitential Psalms or
Concerto for Male Chorus, if somewhat more harmonically ambivalent--and it came off much the same when I heard Alexander Lazarev conduct the RSNO in it in Glasgow about a decade ago.
* Actually, this passage is about the only part of the work that feels unsuccessful to me; I know it remains within the same kind of harmonic stasis that fills the rest of the work, but it doesn't to me feel like it grows organically out of the preceding music in the way that the rest of the symphony does. (Other than this, I think the overall form is most satisfying despite its uniformity of mood--the end's reflection of the beginning is I think a very effective example of a simple cyclic form, and the use of the counter-tenor and chorus I find very telling in its spareness, but also very naturally growing out of what came before.)
Well, here's the BIS:
http://www.youtube.com/v/GlZrJqPrdNQ
Listened to this again, since it's been a while, and enjoyed it. I really like the atmosphere of this symphony. I'm not sure how to describe it, but it kind of reminds me of the atmosphere in an area of my favorite game where time stands still (there's a large bell in this area, too).
I don't hear anything shocking in it, so I'm wondering, too, if it's the recording.
Quote from: Greg on March 12, 2012, 07:24:49 AM
Listened to this again, since it's been a while, and enjoyed it. I really like the atmosphere of this symphony. I'm not sure how to describe it, but it kind of reminds me of the atmosphere in an area of my favorite game where time stands still (there's a large bell in this area, too).
Ooo, elaborate please. :) I'm always interested in video game music.
Quote from: Greg on March 12, 2012, 07:24:49 AM
Well, here's the BIS:
http://www.youtube.com/v/GlZrJqPrdNQ
Listened to this again, since it's been a while, and enjoyed it. I really like the atmosphere of this symphony. I'm not sure how to describe it, but it kind of reminds me of the atmosphere in an area of my favorite game where time stands still (there's a large bell in this area, too).
I don't hear anything shocking in it, so I'm wondering, too, if it's the recording.
Thanks, Greg! Nice to hear the BIS recording. I do not recall anything 'shocking' about the Polyansky recording of the Fourth . . . not a thing, at all.
Well, if Schnittke was "after shock value" in his Fourth Symphony, then the piece is a signal failure.
But I think that the goals of the piece were very much other, and I think it one of the greatest successes in his symphony cycle.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 12, 2012, 07:27:50 AM
Ooo, elaborate please. :) I'm always interested in video game music.
Well, here's a glimpse of the area I'm talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4foetX8zbnk
(couldn't really get as much as I wanted, since they talk a lot on playthroughs, but no talking on this one)
The music before that, during the first part of the Dead Sea, has this music playing the background:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ine3_jdQIIs
which actually always reminded me of the 2nd movement of Mozart's 23rd piano concerto. All of these have this empty, time standing still quality.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 12, 2012, 07:48:54 AM
Well, if Schnittke was "after shock value" in his Fourth Symphony, then the piece is a signal failure.
But I think that the goals of the piece were very much other, and I think it one of the greatest successes in his symphony cycle.
I'm talking about Schnittke in general was after shock value, which seemed to be his only aim IMHO. It had no relation to the 4th. As for the 4th, my feelings on this symphony have been stated already.
I don't think you can have that both ways, John; if being after shock value (your humble opinion) was "his only aim," how can the remark have no relation to a whole symphony of his?
A pity you think so poorly of the Fourth! I find it a marvelous, luminous piece.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 12, 2012, 08:18:37 AM
I don't think you can have that both ways, John; if being after shock value (your humble opinion) was "his only aim," how can the remark have no relation to a whole symphony of his?
A pity you think so poorly of the Fourth! I find it a marvelous, luminous piece.
Well perhaps it wasn't his only aim but I'm getting the impression that it very well could be with each Schnittke symphony I hear. For me, the 4th just doesn't have enough orchestral involvement in it. I guess I'm just looking for things in Schnittke which simply aren't there. Anyway, I'm not worried about not liking his music any more. I have so many other composers that I truly love that I'm just not going to waste my time on Schnittke.
Quote from: Greg on March 12, 2012, 07:58:57 AM
Well, here's a glimpse of the area I'm talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4foetX8zbnk
(couldn't really get as much as I wanted, since they talk a lot on playthroughs, but no talking on this one)
The music before that, during the first part of the Dead Sea, has this music playing the background:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ine3_jdQIIs
which actually always reminded me of the 2nd movement of Mozart's 23rd piano concerto. All of these have this empty, time standing still quality.
Chrono Cross, you're an old school gamer. Very nice. ;D Thanks for sharing.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 12, 2012, 09:03:02 AM
Well perhaps it wasn't his only aim but I'm getting the impression that it very well could be with each Schnittke symphony I hear. For me, the 4th just doesn't have enough orchestral involvement in it. I guess I'm just looking for things in Schnittke which simply aren't there.
Well, you certainly seem to be looking for something that isn't in the Fourth Symphony, whose instrumental component is a chamber orchestra.
And I should agree: if you cannot enjoy Schnittke's music for what is in there, you're not doing either the composer or yourself any great service.
Sure it must be a shock when he employs a chamber orchestra ; )
Quote from: karlhenning on March 12, 2012, 10:13:26 AM
Well, you certainly seem to be looking for something that isn't in the Fourth Symphony, whose instrumental component is a chamber orchestra.
And I should agree: if you cannot enjoy Schnittke's music for what is in there, you're not doing either the composer or yourself any great service.
Sure it must be a shock when he employs a chamber orchestra ; )
Didn't know the 4th employed a chamber orchestra, but this makes no difference whatsoever for me. I love Stravinsky's music and many of his works used chamber forces. I either a: like the music or b: don't like it. I just don't like his style of composition and I'm not just talking about his 4th symphony. I'm talking about his other 7 too and some of the various other works I heard, which
Peer Gynt, which deserves a better recording IMHO, is the only one that made any kind of significant impression on me.
At least I gave Schnittke another go, I can't say many people would have done this, but at least I tried to like the music.
All this talk of the 4th made me do a little research, and discover that the Rozhdestvensky recording of the 4th is dirt cheap on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-No-4-Alfred-Schnittke/dp/B000003JHX/
One copy down ... a few left.
Quote from: edward on March 12, 2012, 02:55:04 PM
All this talk of the 4th made me do a little research, and discover that the Rozhdestvensky recording of the 4th is dirt cheap on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-No-4-Alfred-Schnittke/dp/B000003JHX/
One copy down ... a few left.
Oh, you aaaare naughty, haha!!! ;)
Quote from: edward on March 12, 2012, 02:55:04 PM
All this talk of the 4th made me do a little research, and discover that the Rozhdestvensky recording of the 4th is dirt cheap on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-No-4-Alfred-Schnittke/dp/B000003JHX/
One copy down ... a few left.
Thanks, Edward! I'm in.
.[asin]B000000B0P[/asin]
My first Schnittke symphony, delivers such an ethereal quality, very powerful and thoughtful, I think I'm going to enjoy this journey.
Cool, Greg. I'm about due for a re-immersion in Schnittke; I had a good sonic soaking last April/May, and not a note but I grooved to.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 14, 2012, 04:30:23 AM
Cool, Greg. I'm about due for a re-immersion in Schnittke; I had a good sonic soaking last April/May, and not a note but I grooved to.
Well, I have a large amount of
Schnittke awaiting my listening, thanks to a generous friend, so I have much more soaking to do myself...I'll keep you informed on my findings, Karl, and will be interested to hear your views.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 12, 2012, 10:50:30 AM
Didn't know the 4th employed a chamber orchestra, but this makes no difference whatsoever for me. I love Stravinsky's music and many of his works used chamber forces. I either a: like the music or b: don't like it. I just don't like his style of composition and I'm not just talking about his 4th symphony. I'm talking about his other 7 too and some of the various other works I heard, which Peer Gynt, which deserves a better recording IMHO, is the only one that made any kind of significant impression on me.
At least I gave Schnittke another go, I can't say many people would have done this, but at least I tried to like the music.
Don't give up until you've heard the piano concertos disk with Kupiec and Lettberg!
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 12, 2012, 10:50:30 AM
. . . I either a: like the music or b: don't like it.
I appreciate your honesty here, John. A pity, though, that it's such a straightforward opposition for you!
Myself, when I don't like a piece, I do not find that phenomenon to be an "equal but opposite" quantity to my liking this other piece. There are a hundred pieces which I "didn't like" on an initial hearing, or even for extended periods, which I have since come to like. In some cases, a piece which I did not like at all on a first hearing, is now one of my signal favorites; one example here would be the Shostakovich Fourth Symphony.Quote from: MIAt least I gave Schnittke another go, I can't say many people would have done this, but at least I tried to like the music.
Um, if you cannot say that many people would have done this, you need to exercise your imagination more. There may be more people with open musical minds than you give them credit for.
Of course, it is a temptation to think highest of ourselves, and to feel that few people have a mind as open as our own. One argument for cultivating the virtue of humility, I suppose.
Personally, I have seen — even on GMG alone — many instances of people giving a piece, or a composer, a 'fresh shake'. They are an inspiring example.
Quote from: lescamil on March 14, 2012, 06:34:22 AM
Don't give up until you've heard the piano concertos disk with Kupiec and Lettberg!
I love this disc! And agree heartily on its musical merits.
John may simply not like the music, of course.
Hey! I've got an idea! On each composer-specific thread, let's all take for granted the fact that any given listener may just not like it. That way, it isn't necessary for, say, Jack Blue, who cannot stand the music of Roussel, to post in the Roussel thread "I just don't like this music."
Quote from: karlhenning on March 14, 2012, 06:44:04 AM
I appreciate your honesty here, John. A pity, though, that it's such a straightforward opposition for you!
Myself, when I don't like a piece, I do not find that phenomenon to be an "equal but opposite" quantity to my liking this other piece. There are a hundred pieces which I "didn't like" on an initial hearing, or even for extended periods, which I have since come to like. In some cases, a piece which I did not like at all on a first hearing, is now one of my signal favorites; one example here would be the Shostakovich Fourth Symphony.
Um, if you cannot say that many people would have done this, you need to exercise your imagination more. There may be more people with open musical minds than you give them credit for.
Of course, it is a temptation to think highest of ourselves, and to feel that few people have a mind as open as our own. One argument for cultivating the virtue of humility, I suppose.
Personally, I have seen — even on GMG alone — many instances of people giving a piece, or a composer, a 'fresh shake'. They are an inspiring example.
I certainly understand what you're saying, Karl. I shouldn't have given up on Schnittke so easily, but I just can't get onboard with the music. No worries, as I said, there are so many other composers whose music that I do love that it's enough to keep me busy for a lifetime.
Revisited both the 8th and 2nd symphonies.
I want to listen to the 9th again soon. I like this quote, which could as well describe the sound of the 8th:
QuoteComposer and conductor William C. White concisely analyzes and interprets the Symphony No. 9 by Schnittke on his own web site. He writes: I think this is music of someone who is already dead – as Schnittke had been, having been pronounced clinically dead on several occasions during his strokes. Much of the music sounds like the exploratory wanderings of a ghost during his first encounter with a new, otherworldly universe and then concludes: It is a delicate work, to be sure, and I think there is a lot of richness to keep exploring in it's nuances
Well, now that I have had the sense to heed Sarge's call viz. this recording . . .
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. . . it seems that I have accumulated all the Concerti grossi save only for № 5. I remember being underwhelmed by that one in a live performance — but maybe I was just tired that evening . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on March 16, 2012, 05:15:58 AM
. . . it seems that I have accumulated all the Concerti grossi save only for № 5. I remember being underwhelmed by that one in a live performance — but maybe I was just tired that evening . . . .
The 5th doesn't seem to have a very good reputation; I've read several comments about it being routine modernist-Schnittke noodling. Which doesn't jibe at all with my personal opinion--it's very definitely my favourite of the concerti grossi; a contemporary
Four Seasons starting in spring and ending in a frozen-over winter, with off-stage amplified piano triggering the changes of the season. (I've always loved the closing bars where soft violin glissandi indicate that winter is ending and the cycle is about to begin again.)
. [asin]B0001IXRS8[/asin]
If Schnittke's 2nd was a small stream of water gliding from one point to another, and his 4th was the same water hitting some rapids in some rougher terrain but finding its way back home...then the 6th is the steam of water arriving in a dried up area of rocks...and I mean this positively. Reading up on Schnittke's personal occurrences give insight to this darker, broken tone, and it's power is effective. I still have the 7th and 8th in my pile so I'm anxious to see the direction Schnittke's compositional tone takes us.
Quote from: edward on March 16, 2012, 05:28:35 AM
The 5th doesn't seem to have a very good reputation; I've read several comments about it being routine modernist-Schnittke noodling. Which doesn't jibe at all with my personal opinion--it's very definitely my favourite of the concerti grossi; a contemporary Four Seasons starting in spring and ending in a frozen-over winter, with off-stage amplified piano triggering the changes of the season. (I've always loved the closing bars where soft violin glissandi indicate that winter is ending and the cycle is about to begin again.)
I'm certainly inclined to give it a fresh go, Edward.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 16, 2012, 05:29:21 AM
. [asin]B0001IXRS8[/asin]
If Schnittke's 2nd was a small stream of water gliding from one point to another, and his 4th was the same water hitting some rapids in some rougher terrain but finding its way back home...then the 6th is the steam of water arriving in a dried up area of rocks...and I mean this positively. Reading up on Schnittke's personal occurrences give insight to this darker, broken tone, and it's power is effective. I still have the 7th and 8th in my pile so I'm anxious to see the direction Schnittke's compositional tone takes us.
Are you comparing Chandos and BIS. We need to know why the BISs are said to suck. (6 & 7)
Greg isn't comparing. I think our esteemed Edward may have a word on that head, though.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 16, 2012, 05:52:42 AM
Greg isn't comparing. I think our esteemed Edward may have a word on that head, though.
Basically, the BIS recordings sound like the orchestra is practically sight-reading the scores. Minimal interpretation is apparent, though that's not so much of a negative in the 7th--where interpretative restraint is absolutely required--as compared to in the 6th, which just sounds dead on the BIS recording.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 16, 2012, 05:49:12 AM
Are you comparing Chandos and BIS. We need to know why the BISs are said to suck. (6 & 7)
I've never heard the BIS, this is strictly Chandos. But considering that the BIS has all of the symphonies recorded, there will some (#2, #4) that I will definitely want multiple recordings of, so BIS will be considered unless convinced otherwise.
This Schnittke interest is rapidly increasing and looks to have no end....
...I need some good GMG recommendations for Requiem and Faust Cantata.
GO!
;D
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 18, 2012, 02:57:37 PM
This Schnittke interest is rapidly increasing and looks to have no end....
...I need some good GMG recommendations for Requiem and Faust Cantata.
GO!
;D
I don't have a good recommendation for the
Requiem as I only have the BIS recording. I can believe others would be more effective.
If you can find the Rozhdestvensky
Faust Cantata, that's the way to go, over the BIS performance (though the latter is more than acceptable). Haven't heard the Boreyko that Jens was very positive about, though.
[asin]B001T6FVLM[/asin]
Quote from: edward on March 18, 2012, 05:04:46 PM
I don't have a good recommendation for the Requiem as I only have the BIS recording. I can believe others would be more effective.
If you can find the Rozhdestvensky Faust Cantata, that's the way to go, over the BIS performance (though the latter is more than acceptable). Haven't heard the Boreyko that Jens was very positive about, though.
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Thanks, Edward.
How is the
Requiem from BIS though?
I have a recording of the Requiem, somewhere . . . it was on a Danish label, I am somehow thinking . . . .
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 18, 2012, 05:14:15 PM
Thanks, Edward.
How is the Requiem from BIS though?
It's mostly a rather restrained work--the backbeat in the
Credo notwithstanding--and the performance seems to go along with that view. Whether it's due to unfamiliarity or intent, I find the performance a little on the tentative side. There's a lot of other options out there, but I've yet to explore them.
Quote from: edward on March 18, 2012, 05:29:25 PM
It's mostly a rather restrained work--the backbeat in the Credo notwithstanding--and the performance seems to go along with that view. Whether it's due to unfamiliarity or intent, I find the performance a little on the tentative side. There's a lot of other options out there, but I've yet to explore them.
That backbeat IS some of my fav AS. ;)
Quote from: edward on March 18, 2012, 05:04:46 PM
If you can find the Rozhdestvensky Faust Cantata, that's the way to go, over the BIS performance (though the latter is more than acceptable). Haven't heard the Boreyko that Jens was very positive about, though.
[asin]B001T6FVLM[/asin]
I also prefer Rozhdestvensky's Faust Cantata to the one on BIS on almost all points but there are two things that make me think that having both (or Rozhdestvensky and Boreyko, if that one is preferable to BIS) wouldn't be bad idea.
BIS recording (and Boreyko, I think) are in German while Rozhdestvensky's is in Russian translation, and that ever so slightly alters the color of the piece, for instance the choral opening of 'Faust's farewell to his pupils' in German sounds like some old german drinking song, while in Russian it sounds to me it could almost come out of Les Noces.
The other point are altos, who have pretty different take on all-important 'Death of Faust' part, where I find Rozhdestvensky's alto bit over the top.
Some videos and clips to sample:
complete BIS recording
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g4RFX_RLS0
Death of Faust - BIS via BBC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR78SQeRiC4
Death of Faust - Kotova for Rozhdestvensky (my upload, audio)
http://www.mediafire.com/?ndmm93ypq0tjv9y
Quote from: edward on March 16, 2012, 05:28:35 AM
The 5th doesn't seem to have a very good reputation; I've read several comments about it being routine modernist-Schnittke noodling. Which doesn't jibe at all with my personal opinion--it's very definitely my favourite of the concerti grossi; a contemporary Four Seasons starting in spring and ending in a frozen-over winter, with off-stage amplified piano triggering the changes of the season. (I've always loved the closing bars where soft violin glissandi indicate that winter is ending and the cycle is about to begin again.).
Maybe that's it, Edward — that it's really камерная музика which got just a bit lost in Symphony Hall.
I must have listened to the Fourth Symphony some 5-6 times now, and have listened to all three recordings. But it's only this afternoon that I've read the composer's notes on the piece. Obviously, I am crazy about it, just on the evidence that comes to my ears; but I am further intrigued by his notes. Including the remark, The artist is — however strange this may sound — put under no pressure by any sort of rules. I have a feeling there will be yet more Schnittke in my future . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on March 29, 2012, 02:26:38 PM
I must have listened to the Fourth Symphony some 5-6 times now, and have listened to all three recordings. But it's only this afternoon that I've read the composer's notes on the piece. Obviously, I am crazy about it, just on the evidence that comes to my ears; but I am further intrigued by his notes. Including the remark, The artist is — however strange this may sound — put under no pressure by any sort of rules. I have a feeling there will be yet more Schnittke in my future . . . .
Conforming to a set of rules would somewhat diminish the individualism of the artist anyhow, wouldn't you think? I too have become a little crazy about Schnittke, thanks to my GMG friends here, and I feel as if listening to his music is like hearing the composer talk himself, or telling a story. It seems very personal, and the 4th is no exception.
How did the BIS recording turn out?
I think Schnittke is a good fit for you, Karl. Modern style + Russian composer...
If I listened to him more, I could easily grow to love his music even more...
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 29, 2012, 03:16:49 PM
Conforming to a set of rules would somewhat diminish the individualism of the artist anyhow, wouldn't you think? I too have become a little crazy about Schnittke, thanks to my GMG friends here, and I feel as if listening to his music is like hearing the composer talk himself, or telling a story. It seems very personal, and the 4th is no exception.
How did the BIS recording turn out?
Very good. Of course, what I ought to do now is revisit the Chandos disc . . . .
Quote from: Greg on March 29, 2012, 06:19:32 PM
I think Schnittke is a good fit for you, Karl. Modern style + Russian composer...
If I listened to him more, I could easily grow to love his music even more...
Curiously, the first I listened to his music, it didn't do all that much for me. But, doth not the appetite alter?
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 04, 2012, 07:36:17 PM
.[asin]B000000AQU[/asin]
Schnittke: Minnesang
Bought this primarily for the Choir Concerto, but Minnesang, a canon-style piece for choir set to Medieval poems, is majestic and terrifying, worth the price of the disc alone.
Sold, Greg!
Quote from: karlhenning on April 05, 2012, 02:25:42 AM
Sold, Greg!
Good on ya, mate!
Minnesang was a great little suprise, Karl. As someone like yourself who has such an affinity for choral music, I think you'll appreciate this disc.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 05, 2012, 03:28:49 AM
Good on ya, mate! Minnesang was a great little suprise, Karl. As someone like yourself who has such an affinity for choral music, I think you'll appreciate this disc.
Well recommended, sir! Indeed, the Minnesang rings out fair & sweet!
Quote from: karlhenning on April 12, 2012, 04:56:08 AM
Well recommended, sir! Indeed, the Minnesang rings out fair & sweet!
Glad to hear! ;D
This may sound as a loaded question....but is Minnesang worth buying that CD with the fourth? I already have the BIS recording, and the other Chandos.
Quote from: PaulR on April 12, 2012, 06:34:45 AM
This may sound as a loaded question....but is Minnesang worth buying that CD with the fourth?
I think the Minnesang a most worthy work . . . I am confused as to which CD you mean, though, Paul . . . .
Quote from: PaulR on April 12, 2012, 06:34:45 AM
This may sound as a loaded question....but is Minnesang worth buying that CD with the fourth? I already have the BIS recording, and the other Chandos.
Yes!
But I'm not sure
Minnesang has a BIS version.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518a1Y1U0XL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote from: karlhenning on May 01, 2012, 07:45:25 AM
I think the Minnesang a most worthy work . . . I am confused as to which CD you mean, though, Paul . . . .
For some reason............I don't know, I was being an idiot, I thought the choir Concerto was coupled with the Symphony #4.
So they are (Choir Concerto and Fourth Symphony) on this disc here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000016GT/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00):
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21K3V2BSP0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I thought you were asking after the Minnesang. The Minnesang and Choir Concerto are both on this disc:
[asin]B000000AQU[/asin]
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2012, 06:11:52 AM
So they are (Choir Concerto and Fourth Symphony) on this disc here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000016GT/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00):
Requiem, actually, not
Choir Concerto.
Fine disc regardless, and one that persuaded a couple of rock fan friends of mine to take classical music far more seriously than they had before.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2012, 06:11:52 AM
So they are (Choir Concerto and Fourth Symphony) on this disc here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000016GT/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00):
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21K3V2BSP0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I thought you were asking after the Minnesang. The Minnesang and Choir Concerto are both on this disc:
[asin]B000000AQU[/asin]
The problem was I for some reason thought that the choir concerto on the disc with the
Minnsesang was the
Fourth Symphony. It has been a long, stressful semester....
Quote from: edward on May 02, 2012, 06:14:32 AM
Requiem, actually, not Choir Concerto.
Fine disc regardless, and one that persuaded a couple of rock fan friends of mine to take classical music far more seriously than they had before.
Bah! Thanks for the correction, and shame on me for offering an erroneous corrective, ptui.Quote from: PaulR on May 02, 2012, 06:19:15 AM
The problem was I for some reason thought that the choir concerto on the disc with the Minnsesang was the Fourth Symphony. It has been a long, stressful semester....
Understood. Easy does it!
Schnittke-Heads! Assemble!
I am in need of a second recording of symphony no.4, this piece is really starting to consume me, one of the more interesting instrumentations and structure of a symphony. There's the Rozhdestvensky recording and the BIS with Kamu. Eventually could get both but would like to get one right now that would contrast well with the Polansky version.
Karl, I believe you have all three so you might be able to offer some sound advice.
Thanks in advance!
Hang on a couple of minutes . . . .
Well, the disclaimer is necessarily that, together with Edward, I find all three to be worthy documents of the piece.
I just spot-listened to three passages on both the Kamu and the Rozhdestvensky, and to choose but one of the two for your next purchase, I'd say Kamu. Cleaner soundstage, and some brighter colors.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 08, 2012, 07:22:48 AM
Well, the disclaimer is necessarily that, together with Edward, I find all three to be worthy documents of the piece.
I just spot-listened to three passages on both the Kamu and the Rozhdestvensky, and to choose but one of the two for your next purchase, I'd say Kamu. Cleaner soundstage, and some brighter colors.
Thanks, Karl. Your description of the quality from the Kamu recording intrigues me, I couldn't find any samples from the Rozhestvensky so I wasn't sure what to expect, I just acquired his recording of the 8th on Chandos, and although different label, it's a very solid interpretation.
I'm not sure I've ever heard a recording from Kamu, I'll have to check. But I think the Kamu will be a good choice for now.
But the 4th is wonderful, at first listen it was the spiritual 2nd that initially grabbed me, maybe the 4th required a little more attention, but it has it now.
For the topic of orchestrations, I finally heard the "In memoriam..." for Orchestra, originally the Piano Quintet, and this is an orchestration I find highly successful. This topic came about the other day about Ives Concord Symphony, an orchestration of the Concord Sonata not realized by the composer himself. Perhaps, and I'm sure, the reason being that Schnittke himself was involved in the process, even creating a unique voice for the larger piece while still maintaining the personal emotion from the Quintet.
Hmm, I need to listen to In memoriam... I feel sure I've got it, somewhere . . . .
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 08, 2012, 06:49:59 AMThere's the Rozhdestvensky recording and the BIS with Kamu. Eventually could get both but would like to get one right now that would contrast well with the Polansky version.
I have the Rozhdy as reissued on Venezia (a set of 1-4). All those Melodiya recordings have unsatisfactory sound, like an exaggerated model of the Soviet audio approach. So yeah. Get Kamu.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 08, 2012, 06:49:59 AM
Schnittke-Heads! Assemble!
I am in need of a second recording of symphony no.4, this piece is really starting to consume me, one of the more interesting instrumentations and structure of a symphony. There's the Rozhdestvensky recording and the BIS with Kamu. Eventually could get both but would like to get one right now that would contrast well with the Polansky version.
Karl, I believe you have all three so you might be able to offer some sound advice.
Thanks in advance!
Since you're a Schnittke fan, why don't you just buy the BIS set of symphonies, Greg?
Quote from: eyeresist on May 09, 2012, 05:45:09 PM
I have the Rozhdy as reissued on Venezia (a set of 1-4). All those Melodiya recordings have unsatisfactory sound, like an exaggerated model of the Soviet audio approach. So yeah. Get Kamu.
thanks, eyeresist.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 09, 2012, 05:48:21 PM
Since you're a Schnittke fan, why don't you just buy the BIS set of symphonies, Greg?
you do make a good point, john
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 09, 2012, 05:51:00 PMyou do make a good point, john
I used to own the Schinttke BIS set, but I gave it away. You can buy the set for $27 right now from the Amazon MP seller: blowitoutofhere.
FWIW, I elected to cherry-pick symphonies. Some stretches of the BIS set have raised the eyebrows of Schnittke-heads (to mix metaphors).
It was only a matter of time, of course . . . but I've pulled the trigger on the Psalms of Repentance CD.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2012, 08:31:13 AM
It was only a matter of time, of course . . . but I've pulled the trigger on the Psalms of Repentance CD.
Details later, please. I've been eyeing this one. Starting to think Schnittke has written some of the best, if not the best choral music of the past 30 to 40 years.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2012, 08:31:13 AM
It was only a matter of time, of course . . . but I've pulled the trigger on the Psalms of Repentance CD.
This one? (Of course, it may be the
only one.)
[asin]B00000K2KS[/asin]
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 17, 2012, 01:26:09 PM
Details later, please. I've been eyeing this one. Starting to think Schnittke has written some of the best, if not the best choral music of the past 30 to 40 years.
Inclined to agree with you!
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on May 17, 2012, 01:37:23 PM
This one? (Of course, it may be the only one.)
[asin]B00000K2KS[/asin]
That's the one, and it's just landed to-day.
And Edward's reply to Harry reminds me that I've not listened yet to Peer Gynt . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on May 22, 2012, 07:37:48 AM
And Edward's reply to Harry reminds me that I've not listened yet to Peer Gynt . . . .
For shame! WTF? ??? What in the world is taking you so long? It's the finest work by Schnittke I've heard.
Ilaria's recent listening makes me realize that I don't know the Vn Concertos at all . . . where does this recording stand, anyone?
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I don't have that particular recording, but the other Schnittke recordings I've heard with Krysa have been satisfactory but not quite at the level of his best Russian interpreters (similarly with his recording of Gubaidulina's Offertorium, as it happens).
Of the recordings I've heard (not nearly enough of them, sadly) I'm most partial to Kagan on Live Classics for the 3rd (http://www.amazon.com/Oleg-Kagan-Plays-Schnittke-Alfred/dp/B000060P8M), though Lubotsky on Ondine (http://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-A-Concerto-Gothoni-Lubotsky/dp/B002K2IYRW) is also good in the 3rd.
For the 4th, I've only heard the two Kremer recordings: the earlier--naturally OOP--recording (http://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-Violin-Concerto-No-4-Predlud/dp/B000025460) is my preferred choice even without considering the later Kremer's unfortunate attempt to render the cadenza visuale by means of grunting noises. However, the later Kremer (http://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-Complete-Violin-Concertos-Nos/dp/B00004Z44N) has the advantage of coming as part of a complete set of the four.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 20, 2013, 10:34:12 AM
Ilaria's recent listening makes me realize that I don't know the Vn Concertos at all . . . where does this recording stand, anyone?
[asin]B000027E9X[/asin]
I clearly recall being blown away by a BIS recording of the violin concerti, but now I do not recall if my impressions are from the first (concerti #1 and #2) or second (concerti #3 and #4) volume or both. In any case, I have never regretted purchasing any volume of Schnittke from BIS.
My high regard for Krysa is also derived from this excellent recording
[asin]B0000269VF[/asin]
The Ravel, in particular, is superb.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 20, 2013, 10:34:12 AM
Ilaria's recent listening makes me realize that I don't know the Vn Concertos at all . . .
:D
Quote from: Scarpia on May 20, 2013, 02:30:41 PMIn any case, I have never regretted purchasing any volume of Schnittke from BIS.
My sentiments exactly. The BIS series is very strong and despite whatever criticism may be thrown at this recording or that recording, it's quite a consistent cycle both in terms of performance and audio quality. I certainly wouldn't want to be without any of them now.
Would you like to tango? Well, now here's your chance:
http://www.youtube.com/v/6mJ4-ChAVnM
Wow, I wish that whole performance were on YouTube. Schnittke's music, especially his stage music or larger choral works, can be so powerful when taken in with visuals.
Quote from: lescamil on July 30, 2013, 10:04:03 PM
Wow, I wish that whole performance were on YouTube. Schnittke's music, especially his stage music or larger choral works, can be so powerful when taken in with visuals.
I really wish the whole performance was uploaded as well as this short movement only wetted my appetite. What are your favorite works by Schnittke? Mine are
Concerto Grossi Nos. 1 & 2,
Cello Concerto No. 2,
Viola Concerto,
Symphonies 1-5, 8,
Faust Cantata,
Requiem,
Peer Gynt, all of the film music,
Ritual,
(K)ein Sommernachtstraum,
Piano Quintet,
Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra, among others.
Concerto Grosso No.1
Concerto Grosso No.2
Concerto Grosso No.3
Concerto Grosso No.4 (Symphony No.5)
Concerto Grosso No.5
Concerto Grosso No.6
Could someone give a short description of each? I currently have No.1 (Kremer;DG), and used to have Chailly's No.4 (totally forgotten). I would probably get that Chailly again given the chance...
Quote from: lescamil on July 30, 2013, 10:04:03 PM
Wow, I wish that whole performance were on YouTube. Schnittke's music, especially his stage music or larger choral works, can be so powerful when taken in with visuals.
The last violin concerto should also have visuals. In the last movement, the violinist is supposed to play like a madman only not touching the strings and not making a sound. But for CD they used an audio version approved by the composer where notes were played. Would be good to have the original version with no sound from the violinist and only visuals!
Quote from: springrite on July 31, 2013, 07:31:58 AM
The last violin concerto should also have visuals. In the last movement, the violinist is supposed to play like a madman only not touching the strings and not making a sound. But for CD they used an audio version approved by the composer where notes were played. Would be good to have the original version with no sound from the violinist and only visuals!
This similar effect takes place in his Piano Quintet in the first and last movements. I have been fortunate to see this done live, and this is one of my favorite works. It's a work that haunts you long after it is finished. Safe to say that Schnittke's chamber works are some of my favorites, although there is a large amount of his music I like that is orchestral. Not too many holes in his oeuvre for me.
Quote from: snyprrr on July 31, 2013, 07:25:10 AM
Concerto Grosso No.1
Concerto Grosso No.2
Concerto Grosso No.3
Concerto Grosso No.4 (Symphony No.5)
Concerto Grosso No.5
Concerto Grosso No.6
Could someone give a short description of each? I currently have No.1 (Kremer;DG), and used to have Chailly's No.4 (totally forgotten). I would probably get that Chailly again given the chance...
I'm still exploring Schnittke's
Concerti Grossi but the
Concerto Grosso No. 4 (Symphony No. 5) is a scorching piece of music. Absolutely thrilling. The
Concerto Grosso No. 2 is for violin, cello, and chamber orchestra and features a haunting last movement that sends shivers down my spine. It's actually quite beautiful.
Just spent the last couple of hours listening through the SQs. Happy bugger, Schnittke, huh?
Quote from: pencils on August 05, 2013, 01:51:19 PM
Just spent the last couple of hours listening through the SQs. Happy bugger, Schnittke, huh?
Haha. :) The SQs aren't all that representative of what Schnittke could do but within that context, he certainly was endearing and imaginative. I listened to these back-to-back not too long ago and enjoyed them, although they're not really the place to start exploring his music IMHO. Definitely check out all of the
Concerti Grossi, at least listen to
Symphonies 2-4, 8, the
Requiem,
Cello Concerto No. 2,
Viola Concerto,
Faust Cantata,
Piano Quintet,
In Memoriam, the film works,
(K)ein Sommernachtstraum, among others.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 05, 2013, 03:21:05 PM
Haha. :) The SQs aren't all that representative of what Schnittke could do but within that context, he certainly was endearing and imaginative. I listened to these back-to-back not too long ago and enjoyed them, although they're not really the place to start exploring his music IMHO. Definitely check out all of the Concerti Grossi, at least listen to Symphonies 2-4, 8, the Requiem, Cello Concerto No. 2, Viola Concerto, Faust Cantata, Piano Quintet, In Memoriam, the film works, (K)ein Sommernachtstraum, among others.
Thank you :) ... I am actually quite enjoying them on second listen. 2 & 4 are standing out atm. On your recommendation, I shall try the symphonies next :D
Quote from: pencils on August 05, 2013, 04:07:44 PM
Thank you :) ... I am actually quite enjoying them on second listen. 2 & 4 are standing out atm. On your recommendation, I shall try the symphonies next :D
Schnittke's symphonies aren't his 'major' works but he felt compelled to write them as he obviously felt attached to the genre, but his aren't the towering achievements that Mahler's, Shostakovich's, or RVW's are, but they're certainly enjoyable on their own terms. Listen to
Symphony No. 5 (Concerto Grosso No. 4) first. This is a sizzling hot symphony. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 05, 2013, 04:32:17 PM
Schnittke's symphonies aren't his 'major' works but he felt compelled to write them as he obviously felt attached to the genre, but his aren't the towering achievements that Mahler's, Shostakovich's, or RVW's are, but they're certainly enjoyable on their own terms. Listen to Symphony No. 5 (Concerto Grosso No. 4) first. This is a sizzling hot symphony. :)
Quote from: pencils on August 05, 2013, 01:51:19 PM
Just spent the last couple of hours listening through the SQs. Happy bugger, Schnittke, huh?
No.1: I recall this being an early '60s, fairly short... Stravinsky-meets-Penderecki???
No.2: three contrasting movements, somewhat like Denisov,... I remember the 'agitato'.
No.3: also three movements, this is world-known as a perfect example of Post Modernism, serial work-meets-quotations that is much tamer than Crumb's 'B;acl Angels'. Still, it mingles beauty and ugliness together, on a hair-pin turn, that, still, IS pretty bitter all and all, and I find it somewhat less pleasing than Schoenberg to listen to. I have the Orlando, the dedicatees (and great cd with Yun and Keuris).
No.4: remember the AlbanBergQuartett's release (with Rihm)? My, what a dreary album, but, yes, esstential for those moments. Here Schnittke's 'Late' Style of 4-5 contrasting movements is played out for String Quartet. I listened last year and do recall quite a bit of key-sliding morbidness,... I believe the 'agitato/prestos' weren't endless, and, generally, I must rank it right along with the other Late Masterpieces. Still, it's not for anyone who doesn't like Schnittke generally,... you know.
Piano Quintet: haven't heard this in ages, but I recall it as a precursor to SQ No.3. Still, it has depth as an im memoriam to his mother, you all know it better than I right now,... I remember being sucked in by the Penguin Guide review, thinking it was going to be a DSCH Quintet, but no, it was mostly Schnittke's dark stuff which I wasn't really going for much at the time (at least the PQ). I do like the Orchestral Transcription 'In Memoriam', should revisit.
Cello Sonata (No.1): this is the piece, perhaps, that has gotten the widest circulation, from people getting DSCH, Prokofiev, and Myaskovsky cds! I admit it was the piece I liked least on my 'Russian Cello Sonatas' cd (BIS). It is in three contrasting movements in Schnittke's typical late '70s style (see SQ No.2 above)- brooding intro, explosive agitato/presto, brooding and miserable finale,... YAY!!!! Many traditionalists who buy cello cds for DSCH probably haaate the Schnittke, and, yea, it's kinda ugly. duh- Schnittke
String Trio: long and morose, I prefer the String Trio version to the Piano Trio version. Again, it has the typical hallmarks before AS's Late Style. Lots of quote-y stuff.
Violin Sonata No.2 'Quasi un Sonata': this is another 'famous' Schnittke piece, full of quotes and crags, this that and the other thing. I haven't heard the short No.3 (1994).
DSCH String Quartet piece: I forget the exact title. Frankly, I'm not sure I could handle a whole recital of the short Schnittke pieces for various chamber grouping (Gratulations... Stille... others and others). He can GET a little overbearing sometimes for me.
Piano Music: ??? can't see me wanting to explore
In all, Schnittke is hard to love because he wanted it that way.
Nobody likes a whiner, not even the devil. I mean, with the sparseness of Chamber Music, there was no harpsichord and Orchestral color, there is just SCHNITTKE, and, frankly, he can come across as quite the stereotype.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 05, 2013, 08:05:46 PM
In all, Schnittke is hard to love because he wanted it that way. Nobody likes a whiner, not even the devil. I mean, with the sparseness of Chamber Music, there was no harpsichord and Orchestral color, there is just SCHNITTKE, and, frankly, he can come across as quite the stereotype.
I adamantly disagree with this statement. Schnittke is Schnittke whether he composed for a string quartet or a full-blown orchestra. The colors are more limited in chamber music but this doesn't mean it's any less Schnittke because of this. For me and IMHO, Schnittke was a living doorway between the past, present, and the future of classical music. His style did change and got much more ominous, but nobody should think any less of his music because his outlook on life started to change. It's still Schnittke and he most certainly belongs in a category of his own.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 05, 2013, 08:05:46 PM
No.4: remember the AlbanBergQuartett's release (with Rihm)? My, what a dreary album, but, yes, esstential for those moments. Here Schnittke's 'Late' Style of 4-5 contrasting movements is played out for String Quartet. I listened last year and do recall quite a bit of key-sliding morbidness,
Key sliding moroseness. Gloria Coates is standing up like a frantic meerkat, at the very mention.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 05, 2013, 08:59:10 PM
I adamantly disagree with this statement. Schnittke is Schnittke whether he composed for a string quartet or a full-blown orchestra. The colors are more limited in chamber music but this doesn't mean it's any less Schnittke because of this. For me and IMHO, Schnittke was a living doorway between the past, present, and the future of classical music. His style did change and got much more ominous, but nobody should think any less of his music because his outlook on life started to change. It's still Schnittke and he most certainly belongs in a category of his own.
That's all I was saying : Schnittke IS Schnittke, no matter what's going on,...
There are several performances of Requiem available, what performance is your absolute favorite? I only own one recording of the Requiem and it's with Stefan Parkman on BIS and it's an excellent performance.
One work that I wish would get recorded more is Four Hymns which was written for a chamber ensemble (cello, bassoon, harpsichord, harp, double bass, timpani, and tubular bells).
pencils, have you listened to any more of Schnittke's music? If yes, what did you listen to and what are your impressions of the music?
The last movements to Cello Concertos 1 & 2 will knock you out of here! Such power...
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 06, 2013, 08:54:23 AM
There are several performances of Requiem available, what performance is your absolute favorite? I only own one recording of the Requiem and it's with Stefan Parkman on BIS and it's an excellent performance.
One work that I wish would get recorded more is Four Hymns which was written for a chamber ensemble (cello, bassoon, harpsichord, harp, double bass, timpani, and tubular bells).
I think I heard the Caprice label,... gotta love that little 'rock' rhythm with the drums and bass!! I recall another version not being as cool here.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 07, 2013, 09:43:17 AM
I think I heard the Caprice label,... gotta love that little 'rock' rhythm with the drums and bass!! I recall another version not being as cool here.
Yeah, I've seen that Caprice recording and if I already didn't have another
Requiem on the way, I would have probably bought it. Ah who am I kidding! I'm going to buy it eventually. :D
Some commentary on Schnittke's (K)ein Sommernachtstaum:
http://www.youtube.com/v/uEC2goYPRQ8
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 07, 2013, 08:36:05 AM
pencils, have you listened to any more of Schnittke's music? If yes, what did you listen to and what are your impressions of the music?
I am just about to put on Symphony 6 and Concerto Grosso 2. I shall report in as ordered ;D 0:)
I know you suggested 5 and 4, but these are on the old iPod already...
Quote from: pencils on August 07, 2013, 01:27:59 PM
I am just about to put on Symphony 6 and Concerto Grosso 2. I shall report in as ordered ;D 0:)
I know you suggested 5 and 4, but these are on the old iPod already...
Please do report when you have time.
Concerto Grosso No. 2 is a great work. The last movement, in particular, contains some elegiac lyricism from Schnittke.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 07, 2013, 08:36:05 AM
pencils, have you listened to any more of Schnittke's music? If yes, what did you listen to and what are your impressions of the music?
Ok, I really quite enjoyed Symphony 6 and the Concerto Grosso 2. I did think that there were resonances of the bleakness/darkness of Pettersson in in the Symphony, which sat well with me. I am keen to explore more.
As far as the CG was concerned, I am not quite sure what to make of it, tbh. I think I may need several revisits here to decide whether I like it or not. Jazz. Christmas hymns. Snippets of Baroque pieces. Bells? Dissonant weirdness. Bloke strangling a wasp in places? The same percussion guy employed by Eduard Tubin in his Symphony 5?
Not saying I don't like it, but I may need another few sittings with the CG2, whereas the symphony was much more my thing.
Quote from: pencils on August 08, 2013, 11:24:49 AM
Ok, I really quite enjoyed Symphony 6 and the Concerto Grosso 2. I did think that there were resonances of the bleakness/darkness of Pettersson in in the Symphony, which sat well with me. I am keen to explore more.
As far as the CG was concerned, I am not quite sure what to make of it, tbh. I think I may need several revisits here to decide whether I like it or not. Jazz. Christmas hymns. Snippets of Baroque pieces. Bells? Dissonant weirdness. Bloke strangling a wasp in places? The same percussion guy employed by Eduard Tubin in his Symphony 5?
Not saying I don't like it, but I may need another few sittings with the CG2, whereas the symphony was much more my thing.
I'm glad you enjoyed
Symphony No. 6. You've got to hear
Symphony No. 8 now (since you're going into that direction with the bleakness :)).
Concerto Grosso No. 2 is certainly a fun work and you've described Schnittke's polystylism perfectly. Yes, I would say give a few more listens and if it still doesn't do much for you, then put it aside and revisit later. There's nothing worse than beating yourself over the head with a work that you don't care much for right now. I have found that time is a great healer in Schnittke's music because I frankly
hated disliked (hate is too strong a word) this man's music for quite some time, but the aura and mystique of this composer kept me coming back and finally something just 'clicked' with me in big way. I don't really know what happened. I don't know if was just the fact that I gained more listening experience with other composers' music or what, but I'm certainly proud I never gave up on ol' Alfred. Like I said, time is a great healer and I hope the same will ring true for you. Just give him more time.
Revisited the marvelous Psalms of Repentance last night.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 06, 2013, 02:24:36 PM
For Requiem I have these... Both very good.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516OCb0jjvL._SS250_.jpg)
I have the one which my regrettable editing left standing 8) . . . and also
this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000016GT/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1) one
Mirror Image, is that your second or third avatar of Schnittke? That's a great photo.
Thread duty, sort of: I have only heard his cadenzas for Beethoven's Violin Concerto (Kremer) -- which I imagine has introduced a lot of people to him. I rather liked them so maybe I'll dig deeper one of these days.
Quote from: Pat B on August 12, 2013, 09:24:45 PM
Mirror Image, is that your second or third avatar of Schnittke? That's a great photo.
Thread duty, sort of: I have only heard his cadenzas for Beethoven's Violin Concerto (Kremer) -- which I imagine has introduced a lot of people to him. I rather liked them so maybe I'll dig deeper one of these days.
This is my second avatar of Schnittke. I agree, it's a good photo. If you're looking for some recommendations then don't be shy ask anyone who's been frequenting this thread.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 12, 2013, 09:38:34 PM
If you're looking for some recommendations then don't be shy ask anyone who's been frequenting this thread.
Thanks! When the time comes I'll probably read the thread (or at least some of it) and go from there.
...or I could do neither of the above and just buy whatever is available for a reasonable price at the local second-hand store. So now I have this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71lFTxUUgjL.jpg)
(which, in case the image doesn't work, is the "Moscow Studio Archives" disc of Concerto Grosso 1 and Cello Concerto 1). I listened to part of the CG (different performance) on youtube and this might be right up my alley.
Quote from: Pat B on August 15, 2013, 08:43:23 AM
...or I could do neither of the above and just buy whatever is available for a reasonable price at the local second-hand store. So now I have this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71lFTxUUgjL.jpg)
(which, in case the image doesn't work, is the "Moscow Studio Archives" disc of Concerto Grosso 1 and Cello Concerto 1). I listened to part of the CG (different performance) on youtube and this might be right up my alley.
That's a great
Concerto Grosso No. 1 performance (the best I can remember). The
Cello Concerto No. 1 I prefer over all other performances is Alexander Ivashkin's (w/ Polyansky conducting the Russian State SO) on Chandos. Gutman is a good cellist, but Ivashkin digs deeper IMHO into the work.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 15, 2013, 06:08:51 PM
That's a great Concerto Grosso No. 1 performance (the best I can remember). The Cello Concerto No. 1 I prefer over all other performances is Alexander Ivashkin's (w/ Polyansky conducting the Russian State SO) on Chandos. Gutman is a good cellist, but Ivashkin digs deeper IMHO into the work.
Quote from: Pat B on August 15, 2013, 08:43:23 AM
...or I could do neither of the above and just buy whatever is available for a reasonable price at the local second-hand store. So now I have this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71lFTxUUgjL.jpg)
(which, in case the image doesn't work, is the "Moscow Studio Archives" disc of Concerto Grosso 1 and Cello Concerto 1). I listened to part of the CG (different performance) on youtube and this might be right up my alley.
I have Gutman on EMI with Masur (w/Schumann). CC1 is one of Schnittke's most Post-Modern works, no? It's got those turn-on-a-dime chord changes that sound like Expressionist Baroque (Grotesquerie). It's like half way between the Post Mod stuff and the full dreariness of the Late Style. I find CC1 more 'manufactured' sounding than CC2,... CC2 is in the full Late Style,... it has quite a wider palette of colors.
1-5, how would you rate the Viola Concerto, Violin Concertos 3-4, and CC 1-2? I recall not liking the Viola C (was it Tabea Zimmermann?),... or did I get it confused with the Penderecki (THAT one I found dreary!!)??
Quote from: snyprrr on August 15, 2013, 06:20:24 PM
I have Gutman on EMI with Masur (w/Schumann). CC1 is one of Schnittke's most Post-Modern works, no? It's got those turn-on-a-dime chord changes that sound like Expressionist Baroque (Grotesquerie). It's like half way between the Post Mod stuff and the full dreariness of the Late Style. I find CC1 more 'manufactured' sounding than CC2,... CC2 is in the full Late Style,... it has quite a wider palette of colors.
1-5, how would you rate the Viola Concerto, Violin Concertos 3-4, and CC 1-2? I recall not liking the Viola C (was it Tabea Zimmermann?),... or did I get it confused with the Penderecki (THAT one I found dreary!!)??
I find both Schnittke CCs to be fine and some of his most inspired music (I also highly recommend his
Cello Sonatas). The
Viola Concerto is no exception. Clearly you haven't heard either of Bashmet's performances or they could very well change your mind. I don't like Penderecki at all, so I could careless about his music. The
Violin Concertos No. 3 & 4 are both excellent, but neither are Schnittke at his most inspired with maybe the VC No. 4 giving us something more to chew on. In other words, it leaves a stronger impression in my mind than the 3rd.
Quote from: edward on March 18, 2012, 05:04:46 PM
If you can find the Rozhdestvensky Faust Cantata, that's the way to go, over the BIS performance (though the latter is more than acceptable). Haven't heard the Boreyko that Jens was very positive about, though.
[asin]B001T6FVLM[/asin]
Definitely a fine performance. Also, a dynamite performance of
Concerto Grosso No. 2 with the dedicatees of the work: Oleg Kagan and Natalia Gutman.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 26, 2013, 03:03:42 PM
Definitely a fine performance. Also, a dynamite performance of Concerto Grosso No. 2 with the dedicatees of the work: Oleg Kagan and Natalia Gutman.
No argument there: I'd rate this as unquestionably the Concerto Grosso #2 to get. Krysa and Thedeen can't match it for intensity, while the Chandos with Grindenko and Ivashkin is IMO one of their rare misfires, a performance that's so overdone as to turn into self-parody. It's not one of my favourite Schnittke works, but it wasn't till I'd heard Kagan/Gutman that I realized it wasn't the complete turkey I'd been treating it as.
Quote from: edward on August 27, 2013, 05:16:04 AM
No argument there: I'd rate this as unquestionably the Concerto Grosso #2 to get. Krysa and Thedeen can't match it for intensity, while the Chandos with Grindenko and Ivashkin is IMO one of their rare misfires, a performance that's so overdone as to turn into self-parody. It's not one of my favourite Schnittke works, but it wasn't till I'd heard Kagan/Gutman that I realized it wasn't the complete turkey I'd been treating it as.
Is that the same performance that shows up on another (old) release, with the Cello Concerto? (I think)
Quote from: edward on August 27, 2013, 05:16:04 AM
No argument there: I'd rate this as unquestionably the Concerto Grosso #2 to get. Krysa and Thedeen can't match it for intensity, while the Chandos with Grindenko and Ivashkin is IMO one of their rare misfires, a performance that's so overdone as to turn into self-parody. It's not one of my favourite Schnittke works, but it wasn't till I'd heard Kagan/Gutman that I realized it wasn't the complete turkey I'd been treating it as.
I definitely agree with you here. I found this performance to completely nail the essence of the work. Kagan and Gutman give it their all. I was quite disappointed with the BIS and Chandos performances in comparison with the Krysa/Thedeen being better than Grindenko/Ivashkin, but they were up against some stiff competition anyway.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 27, 2013, 01:23:29 PM
Is that the same performance that shows up on another (old) release, with the Cello Concerto? (I think)
I don't recall
Concerto Grosso No. 2 showing up on a recording paired with Gutman's
Cello Concerto No. 1. Could you perhaps be thinking of the
Viola Concerto? I know these were coupled together initially.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 28, 2013, 07:43:46 PM
I don't recall Concerto Grosso No. 2 showing up on a recording paired with Gutman's Cello Concerto No. 1. Could you perhaps be thinking of the Viola Concerto? I know these were coupled together initially.
that's probably right
One of Schnittke's best symphonies: Symphony No. 4 -
It's ironic that the most instinctive metaphors for Alfred Schnittke's Fourth Symphony (1984) are ones of connection. The far greater part of Schnittke's output is a testament to disconnection, to the inevitable atrophy, entropy, and dissolution of any musical material. But the wisdom of paradox tells us that the skeptic often conceals the most fervent believer, and that the best unravelers are, at heart, even greater weavers.
That is the strange logic behind Schnittke's Fourth, perhaps his most tightly knit work. It bears all the metaphors of wholeness: the pledge, the oath, the seal, threads which interlace in a fabric of virtuosic density, single seeds which cross-pollinate and disseminate, and roots that extend deep and wide into separate traditions. Out of the discordant, Schnittke spins an intricate harmonic web.
Analyzing (literally, "loosening up") this web is a real challenge, however. The Fourth Symphony's "surface," on a symbolic level, contains four separate religious traditions: on one hand, three braids of Christianity (Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant), and on another, their implied precursor, Judaism. Schnittke calls forth each of these disparate strands as a particular musical line, hymn-like and stepwise, each varying from the other two only in subtle degrees of intonation. Schnittke adds to these three discrete modes a fourth "Semitic" mode in semitones, echoing ancient synagogue chant.
With these four musical pillars, Schnittke constructs a three-fold "plot" for the entire Symphony based on the Catholic rosary. The rosary concentrates on the Virgin Mary, recounting the story of Christ's life through her eyes in a series of three expressive states--the Joyful, the Sorrowful, and the Glorious. Each of these states further consists of five episodes: the Joyful thus recounts the Annunciation, the Visitation, the Nativity, Jesus's Presentation in the Temple, and the Finding of Jesus in the Temple; the Sorrowful presents among other events the Crowning with Thorns, the Carrying of the cross, and the Crucifixion; and likewise, the Glorious relates the Resurrection and so on.
Schnittke's task in this work-both awesomely rigid and seamlessly lyrical--is to musically reconstruct each of these events in an unbroken, single-movement chain. In the process, Schnittke relies upon a Baroque-like continuo of piano, harpsichord, and celesta, again reflecting the rosary's triple-structure and the three Christian denominations. These keyboards form the Symphony's spine, following each other in a relentless, unbreakable canon whose strange dissonances emit a pearly luminescence. And as each keyboard's line moves in one of the "denominational" modes (that is, Orthodox, Lutheran, or Protestant), the three in combination ubiquitously sound the chromatic, "Jewish" fourth mode. The sound-world of this continuo group fill the entire work; as Schnittke himself has said, "The whole work is yoked into this bent space of intonation."
In addition to the keyboards, Schnittke also employs vocal solos at three key structural moments--a tenor roughly one third through the work, a countertenor two-thirds through, and, to end the Symphony, a choral setting of the Ave Maria, synthesizing all previous motives in a single diatonic mode. Schnittke originally had to suppress this text; its religious nature would have disallowed it performance in the Soviet Union (only after Schnittke left Moscow for Hamburg did he notify his publishers of the text).
Yet even after this concealment is made explicit, Schnittke's Fourth still bears the marks of a secret rite; it weaves far too many levels, layers, and patterns into its hazy, melancholic space to be entirely comprehensible. But like Schnittke's other works of spiritual affirmation and connection, few as they are, the Fourth Symphony follows not the logic of clarity, but the conviction of scarred, fervid prayer.
[Taken from All Music Guide]
Yet another Schnittke classic: (K)ein Sommernachtstraum -
"The piece should be played in a concert of Shakespeare settings, though it has no direct connection with Shakespeare. Yet it is not for that reason that it is called (K)ein Sommernachtstraum ("(Not) A Midsummer Night's Dream"). And that is all there is to say about my Mozart-Schubert related rondo"
You have to love a composer who speaks in such a tangled, self-negating way about his music, especially a piece as provocative -- some might say obnoxious -- as (K)ein Sommernachtstraum. Yet Schnittke often writes music as he writes words -- as a series of negations which cancel each other out. Material grows out of combat and reversal, out of the scary holes between material, out of the ambiguous stuff between the lines.
This "ambiguous stuff" in (K)ein Sommernachtstraum comes, as Schnittke said above, from Mozart and Schubert -- but not quite. Schnittke adds: "I should like to add that I did not steal all the 'antiquities' in this piece; I faked them." This fake Viennese Classicism free-floats in the composer's works of the late 1970s and 1980s. Some works carry the fake Mozart-Schubert mark as fatal wound, like the Violin Concerto No. 4 and Concerto for Viola and Orchestra; other works, like Schnittke's famous String Trio, entirely inhabit the Mozart-Schubert complex like a squatter in a burnt out building.
In the case of (K)ein Sommernachtstraum, Schnittke had actually written its main structure out completely the year before, as a Gratulationsrondo ("Congratulatory Rondo") for violin and piano, celebrating violinist and friend Mark Lubotsky's fiftieth birthday. This little chamber work comes off almost perfectly as a sonata-rondo movement from the 1780s, complete with catchy primary and secondary themes, a development, "ideal" modulations, and a complete recapitulation.
Yet not everything sits right: under the surface of this Rondo, Schnittke marks this work as a forgery, with parallel fifths, congested bass lines, odd major-minor shifts, and so on. And it is these signatures of the inauthentic that ferment into the Molotov cocktail of (K)ein Sommernachtstraum. With the help of a huge orchestra, Schnittke here magnifies the cracks in his classical mask; tiny fissures become gaping holes, filled with the most garish and unseemly dissonances, and the most suffocating agglomerations of themes and motives. Solid 18th-century melodies now spin into raunchy, vicious circus marches; solos come from unseen soloists; modulations occur in five keys at once. The whole affair reeks of carnival, and carnival's intent on literally turning the world upside down.
But carnivals are also loads of fun, and Schnittke manages to tread the line between horror and a good time. The atmosphere reminds one of The Sorcerer's Apprentice -- not composer Paul Dukas' work, but Disney's animation of it in Fantasia, where a single broom comes alive, multiplies uncontrollably, and turns from cutesy creature into a sprawling monstrous menace.
Inevitably, things lead to disaster -- you must pay for your fun -- and (K)ein Sommernachtstraum climaxes on a disgusting smear of cluster chords and sleigh bells, after which the opening melody returns, bearing deep trauma. The effect of this piece (its "what") is as clear as a stop sign, and certainly explains to some degree Schnittke's popularity. But understanding the "why" of a piece like this isn't simple; Schnittke has confessed many times to loving the music he parodies, especially that "Mozart-Schubert" sound. Perhaps he rails not against the music itself, but the world that uses it, a world far more harmful than Schnittke's own audacious pastiches.
[Article taken from All Music Guide]
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 02, 2013, 07:45:39 AM
Yet another Schnittke classic: (K)ein Sommernachtstraum -
This piece pisses me off now, not because it's bad
per se, but it's the sort of light and harmless Schnittke work that ensembles program nowadays to avoid alienating their subscriber audiences, while the bulk of Schnittke's output has been consigned to oblivion. It must have been interesting to have been a concertgoer during the Schnittke boom of the late 1980s through the late 1990s, when everything he wrote was on offer.
Strictly speaking, then, it isn't the piece to which you object....
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2013, 10:54:23 AM
Strictly speaking, then, it isn't the piece to which you object....
No, I object to hearing about it, to being excited that a Schnittke piece has finally been programmed in a concert I can go to, and then to find out that it is
(K)ein Sommernachtstraum or similar. It's the same frustration that Pettersson fans feel when that composer's Symphony No. 7 is the only work that orchestras ever seem to put on.
Quote from: CRCulver on September 02, 2013, 11:21:38 AM
No, I object to hearing about it, to being excited that a Schnittke piece has finally been programmed in a concert I can go to, and then to find out that it is (K)ein Sommernachtstraum or similar. It's the same frustration that Pettersson fans feel when that composer's Symphony No. 7 is the only work that orchestras ever seem to put on.
I think instead of having a negative outlook you could try to be more positive about this and look at this way: at least someone is programming Schnittke, or Pettersson, in the first place even if it's a 'popular' piece. I still love
(K)ein Sommernachtstraum whether it's programmed or not. The music, itself, is what matters to me and not whether a work by Schnittke, or Pettersson, makes onto a concert program.
Another classic: Concerto Grosso No. 1 -
If Alfred Schnittke is a "poster child" of musical postmodernism, his Concerto Grosso No. 1 (1977) is his poster work. One of the few orchestral works written after 1945 to enter the repertoire of ensembles worldwide, its uneasy fusion of old and new, high and low, and grave and comical captures what is most Schnittkean about Schnittke. This is no mean feat: the "Schnittkean" is a quality so conflicted, so nomadic and self-deconstructing, that it is almost illusory; the second one catches up to it, it's just fallen through a trap door. Likewise, Concerto Grosso No. 1 is a high-velocity funhouse of masks. Their unveiling is uproarious and caustically black, their liveliness optimistic, but their trajectory doomed.
This unveiling is also Schnittke's central compositional strategy, something he calls "polystylism." More than mere eclecticism, "polystylism" is for Schnittke a musical last resort for building large works; it is a means for dynamic musical theater, whether comedy or tragedy; it is also, as Schnittke believes, the best way of creating successful musical tension amidst unprecedented musical freedom. And so polystylism is eclectic, but never indifferent; it always intends to confront, surprise, and subvert with utmost calculation. Hence the Schnittkean paradox: things stick together by falling apart, in exactly the right places, at exactly the right times.
The Concerto Grosso No. 1 has already fallen apart when it begins. Though the entire complement of Baroque instrumentation is present (two violin soloists, harpsichord, prepared piano, string orchestra), the work begins with only prepared piano, sounding remarkably like a gaggle of pots and pans as it thumps through a childlike "sentimental song"; only after this foreboding "Prelude" do the other instruments enter.
The second movement (Toccata) starts as a cutting Vivaldi parody, but quickly distends into a wall of ferocious dissonance. A hapless race through musical history begins: music-box Mozart, heroic-period Beethoven, an overwrought parody of early 12-tone Webern -- all in turn drown in a cacophonous current, an "Ur-discord" lurking behind all other styles. The movement ends with the soloists flailing mechanically amidst stabbing orchestral chords.
Schnittke continues the Baroque concerto sequence with the ensuing slow Recitativo. Soloists and orchestra steadfastly maintain a call-and-response, but its outlines are blurred by thick chromatic clusters and a disturbing lamentation. The Recitativo eventually devolves into a slow, rising slide modeled on a scream; yet through its furious static you can perceive the real joke, as the soloists drill out licks from Tchaikovsky's famous Violin Concerto.
An adamant but confused cadenza for the soloists leads to a culminating Rondo, at which point Vivaldi barrels back into view; but so does "Grandmother Schnittke," hilariously banging out her favorite tango on, of all things, the harpsichord. The tango jumps into the fray, along with everything else, and the Rondo, model of "one-thing-after-another" musical forms, now becomes a game of "all-things-at-once." The tone is catastrophic but hardly serious, and soon enough the prepared piano shatters everything with its returning "sentimental song." The remaining Postlude supplies an appropriate anti-conclusion; the whole Concerto is now but floating fragments of previous motives and styles, resting on a luminous screen of string-harmonics. Schnittke here perfects his own archetypal conclusion, to permeate his next decade's work: a tone both doomed and supremely open to the future. At once epitaph and phoenix, it embraces the paradox of Schnittke's music and the magnetism of this popular work.
[Article taken from All Music Guide]
I wouldn't mind getting that Chailly disc again.
Flipped through all the 'Grossi' just now. The first two are pretty dark, then, 3-4 get pretty psychedelic, and 6 is pretty grim again. No.5, with just one solo violin as the concertante, I flipped through too quickly. But, seriously, taken as a group, it's pretty... well, I'll leave off qualifiers, but, yea, it's ALL Schnittke, no mistaking that! Sometimes I think he just composed out of hate.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 04, 2013, 06:41:40 AM
I wouldn't mind getting that Chailly disc again.
Flipped through all the 'Grossi' just now. The first two are pretty dark, then, 3-4 get pretty psychedelic, and 6 is pretty grim again. No.5, with just one solo violin as the concertante, I flipped through too quickly. But, seriously, taken as a group, it's pretty... well, I'll leave off qualifiers, but, yea, it's ALL Schnittke, no mistaking that! Sometimes I think he just composed out of hate.
The Chailly disc is outstanding. Really intense performances from Chailly/RCO. Definitely a must-buy.
Another Schnittkian classic: Faust Cantata -
This enormous work requires a large orchestra, chorus, organ, and four solo singers. It is a prequel to an opera and came about when the Vienna Singing Academy requested a work for the 1983 Vienna Festival. For the libretto, Schnittke chose the last chapter of an adaptation of the second book of Faust by Johann Spies. About 35 minutes long, the score does not reflect the more mischievous tendencies of the composer. This may be because his past experiences with Austrian audiences have been filled with controversy, even outward hostility. It is a straightforward, secular cantata, with occasional, unpredictable, and engaging escalations in tension.
The Faust Cantata is made up of ten parts without breaks in between. There are explosive strains of ideas that can leave even prepared audience members breathless. This is especially the case with part seven, "Es geschah," featuring the contra alto and choir. It describes the devil's murder of Faust and the accompaniment is nearly seismic, particularly in the percussion and winds. Even if the work itself frequently morphs from engaging to ponderous, parts are hair-raising, immaculately crafted moments, with the finest instincts for Russian-tinged melody. Some listeners will be enraptured by the entire piece, while others will enjoy it as a body of music with some good sections in it. They are certainly there. Listeners who are beginning to become acquainted with the catalog of Schnittke should wait until his other works have been given sufficient attention. This cantata will otherwise mislead many listeners, because he has written many pieces with a cohesive brilliance and the smiling heart of the benevolent and talented prankster. Those who believe that he can only write music of impish delight must reconcile that opinion to this earnest and often compelling score.
[Article taken from All Music Guide]
Schnittke fans, mark your calendars. Juilliard's 2014 Focus! Festival (Jan. 24-31) will commemorate the composer's 80th birthday with a week of music by him and others in his orbit (e.g., Kancheli, Gubaidulina). Opening night, the New Juilliard Ensemble will do Schnittke's Symphony No. 4 (Joel Sachs, conducting) and for the closing concert, Anne Manson will conduct the Juilliard Orchestra in his Symphony No. 8.
--Bruce
I do call that a temptation, Bruce.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 13, 2013, 09:31:11 AM
I do call that a temptation, Bruce.
Well as they say, "C'mon down!" PS, didn't mention it, but the entire festival is
free.
--Bruce
Schnittke's Fourth . . . expect me!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 13, 2013, 10:50:13 AM
Schnittke's Fourth . . . expect me!
8)
Aside from the two "bookends," they'll be announcing the rest of the week's programs (usually chamber music) later this fall.
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on September 13, 2013, 09:09:29 AM
Schnittke fans, mark your calendars. Juilliard's 2014 Focus! Festival (Jan. 24-31) will commemorate the composer's 80th birthday with a week of music by him and others in his orbit (e.g., Kancheli, Gubaidulina). Opening night, the New Juilliard Ensemble will do Schnittke's Symphony No. 4 (Joel Sachs, conducting) and for the closing concert, Anne Manson will conduct the Juilliard Orchestra in his Symphony No. 8.
--Bruce
Excellent, Bruce! Good news indeed! :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 13, 2013, 05:13:36 PM
Excellent, Bruce! Good news indeed! :)
For the chamber music concerts in between, they will likely do some of the string quartets and (I hope) the Quintet.
--Bruce
Maybe the following fits better in a "labels" type thread; but most of the threads I've seen that fit that description seem pretty old and dormant. Anyway, I recently received an email from
the CEO of Bis, Robert von Bahr, who apparently had been forwarded a note I wrote their website about my wishlists for compendiums of some of their composer series. (I'd tacked the casual, friendly note onto a simple technical query about the website; I didn't expect anyone to actually read it.) For whatever reason, the CEO was nice enough to send a rather involved reply, though this might be something of a form letter he's sending out to many people.
I merely found the response interesting because 1.) it bodes ill for any prospect of future "collected" editions of at least some composers (e.g. non-symphonic Schnittke, which is what I wished aloud for); but also because 2.) Von Bahr seems to think that certain copyright enforcement harms the dissemination of the music. I'm assuming that his argument is made in good faith, as it seems a bit improbably that he's a villainous moustache-twirling corporate music-mogul blackguard, based on the music Bis records and sells.
Quote from: Robert von Bahr, Bis CahunaYour mail has been forwarded to me by David Kornfeld here. Thanks for writing it.
We will eventually bring out a Boxed set with the Cantatas, one way or the other, that's for sure, but how it will look and when, I cannot yet say.
As regards your other suggestions, they were fine up until recently.
Previously the copyright societies "respected" Boxes, that is, we paid copyright according to what we charged for the box. Thus we could do the Schnittke Symphony Box you referred to, with 6 CD:s for the price of 2, and get away with our lives still more or less intact, even if the profit was minimal. It was also fair - the composers and publishers OF COURSE should get what's coming to them, that is, a percentage of what WE get, but that was then...
However, now, rather than acquiescing to your wishes (I had long planned for both a Schnittke Concerto Box, a Schnittke Chamber Music Box and several Aho-Boxes), we will be forced to discontinue some of the Boxes we already have on the market, since the copyright societies have started to charge the full minimum tarif for each and every CD in such boxes individually, regardless of at what price we sell them. This, in actual practice, means that we could pay rather more in production costs, artist royalties and copyrights than our selling price, and that doesn't work in the long run. Not in the short run, either. Since we have the multiple price already printed (i.e. 6 CD:s for the price of 2) on the Boxes, we cannot change the price, either, and, anyway, the market cannot absorb higher prices for these Boxes than we already charge.
So this is a case where
- you and several would-be customers want
- I want
- presumably the composer wants
- the publishers want,
BUT the composers' and publishers' OWN organizations make it impossible. I am helpless, since I am legally obliged to do what these monopolists say.
I have used your mail - and excuse me if you deem this inappropriate - to copy to the Copyright Society, the publishers of Mssrs. Schnittke and Aho, Mr. Aho himself, as he is very much among us, and my organization, IFPI.
It is about time that someone understands what these new, draconic rules actually mean - in real life, that is, not an office in Copenhagen far removed from the daily life of an enterprising label!
Thanks for giving me the opportunity. Your mail under reply is as much to-the-point that I could be accused of having written it myself.
Very best - Robert (von Bahr, CEO, BIS Records).
You are free to publish your letter and this answer wherever you please.
So, does it really seem like my email note is going to get read by Kalevi Aho? ??? "Dear Bis, I really don't feel like paying full price for Mr. Aho's music. Could you make it
cheaper?"
No more drunken emailing, Octave....
Quote from: Octave on September 18, 2013, 09:40:22 PM
Maybe the following fits better in a "labels" type thread; but most of the threads I've seen that fit that description seem pretty old and dormant. Anyway, I recently received an email from the CEO of Bis, Robert von Bahr, who apparently had been forwarded a note I wrote their website about my wishlists for compendiums of some of their composer series. (I'd tacked the casual, friendly note onto a simple technical query about the website; I didn't expect anyone to actually read it.) For whatever reason, the CEO was nice enough to send a rather involved reply, though this might be something of a form letter he's sending out to many people.
I merely found the response interesting because 1.) it bodes ill for any prospect of future "collected" editions of at least some composers (e.g. non-symphonic Schnittke, which is what I wished aloud for); but also because 2.) Von Bahr seems to think that certain copyright enforcement harms the dissemination of the music. I'm assuming that his argument is made in good faith, as it seems a bit improbably that he's a villainous moustache-twirling corporate music-mogul blackguard, based on the music Bis records and sells.
So, does it really seem like my email note is going to get read by Kalevi Aho? ??? "Dear Bis, I really don't feel like paying full price for Mr. Aho's music. Could you make it cheaper?"
No more drunken emailing, Octave....
I spoke with Mode Records the other day and they reminded me... again :(... that cds with 'Orchestral' works were just not doable because of the banksters,... err.... I mean because of our need to live above our means. I just can't stand how overindulging cd-maniacs have caused this world economy to get to this. mm mm mm ::)
Well.... this is awesome
http://www.youtube.com/v/X8cGzog8tVE
How such a sweet, delicate theme is transformed to demented circus polkas and dissonant surprises, and HARPSICHORD, is just brilliant.... :D
Also listened to some of the Faust Cantata, and am amazed by that too! It's incredible stuff.... 8)
Keen to hear the whole Cantata.... :)
I've been telling you to listen to Schnittke for quite some time, Daniel. It's good that you've finally came over to the dark side. ;) :D I love (K)ein Sommernachtstraum and the Faust Cantata, but I encourage you to listen to the cello concerti, Viola Concerto, and Symphonies 3-5 & 8. This should keep your ears busy for awhile.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 22, 2013, 06:17:22 PM
I encourage you to listen to the cello concerti, Viola Concerto, and Symphonies 3-5 & 8.
.....and
Peer Gynt!
How great is that funky drum line in the Requiem Credo? 8)
And how beautiful is that Lacrymosa? :'(
Just got to the beach for a week and included the Requiem, Concerto for Piano and Strings, and Symphony 7 in my traveling MP3 collection.
Quote from: kyjo on September 22, 2013, 06:54:54 PM
.....and Peer Gynt!
Kyle, I couldn't be all inclusive in my list to Daniel. I just gave a few works that I think he should check out.
Peer Gynt isn't the best place to start with Schnittke to tell you the truth. It's such a massive work that it may scare off potential listeners on their first go with the composer. Seeing as I know Daniel plays the cello -- the cello concerti were an easy sell. Also, knowing how he loved symphonies, those symphonies I mentioned were also a good sell. Daniel would also do well to hear the
Viola Concerto seeing as this is a much lauded masterpiece.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 22, 2013, 07:46:00 PM
Kyle, I couldn't be all inclusive in my list to Daniel. I just gave a few works that I think he should check out. Peer Gynt isn't the best place to start with Schnittke to tell you the truth. It's such a massive work that it may scare off potential listeners on their first go with the composer. Seeing as I know Daniel plays the cello -- the cello concerti were an easy sell. Also, knowing how he loved symphonies, those symphonies I mentioned were also a good sell. Daniel would also do well to hear the Viola Concerto seeing as this is a much lauded masterpiece.
......says he who found
Peer Gynt the only listenable Schnittke work a while ago! :D Wait, Daniel plays the cello? How did I not know this before? :)
Quote from: kyjo on September 23, 2013, 02:24:29 AM
......says he who found Peer Gynt the only listenable Schnittke work a while ago! :D Wait, Daniel plays the cello? How did I not know this before? :)
Haha. Yeah, Daniel plays cello, but he's actually a pianist as I believe he won some competitions.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 23, 2013, 06:51:07 AM
Haha. Yeah, Daniel plays cello, but he's actually a pianist as I believe he won some competitions.
And don't forget about composing & conducting! :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 22, 2013, 06:17:22 PM
I've been telling you to listen to Schnittke for quite some time, Daniel. It's good that you've finally came over to the dark side. ;) :D I love (K)ein Sommernachtstraum and the Faust Cantata, but I encourage you to listen to the cello concerti, Viola Concerto, and Symphonies 3-5 & 8. This should keep your ears busy for awhile.
I can see why! ;) And yes, thanks for the welcome! :p Thank you for those recommendations, I shall try and listen to all in the next week! I feel like I'm going to become a hardcore Schnittken! :D (is there a word for a Schnittke-follower? :P )
Thanks guys for talking about my musical life by the way! :)
And, after reading a bit about it, just had to listen to the first symphony today.
http://www.youtube.com/v/fGRWyyDw9Cc
I really don't know what to say! It's just mind-blowing, awesome, incredible.... and it really does have everything! Someone should have filmed my reaction when the Beethoven 5 quote emerged.... :p The whole piece is just so thrillingly captivating, I'd happily listen to it many times! What exciting orchestration too.... imagine seeing this piece live..... or being part of a performance of it.... woww.... (hopefully one day!!)
Am just absolutely amazed by this piece, and this composer, who is so extraordinary and radical that the idea of exploring his work further really is
very, very thrilling indeed. 8) 8)
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 23, 2013, 10:48:08 AM
(is there a word for a Schnittke-follower? :P )
I vote for Шниткеник (
Schnittke-nik) . . . .
Hi, Daniel, long time! :)
Checkout Schnittke's Choir Concerto, it's spellbinding, stands right next to Poulenc's Figure Humaine and Rach's Vespers as one of the greatest pieces for choir from the 20th Century.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 23, 2013, 06:51:07 AM
Haha. Yeah, Daniel plays cello, but he's actually a pianist as I believe he won some competitions.
Very cool! I like this Daniel fellow! 8) BTW Daniel, I play cello and piano also, though I haven't won any competitions like you have. I'd be interested to hear more about your musical life, but in another thread, of course. :)
Quote from: kyjo on September 23, 2013, 11:39:33 AM
Very cool! I like this Daniel fellow! 8) BTW Daniel, I play cello and piano also, though I haven't won any competitions like you have. I'd be interested to hear more about your musical life, but in another thread, of course. :)
See here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19706.0.html)
Quote from: North Star on September 23, 2013, 12:40:49 PM
See here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19706.0.html)
Kudos, Karlo!
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 23, 2013, 10:48:08 AM
I can see why! ;) And yes, thanks for the welcome! :p Thank you for those recommendations, I shall try and listen to all in the next week! I feel like I'm going to become a hardcore Schnittken! :D (is there a word for a Schnittke-follower? :P )
Thanks guys for talking about my musical life by the way! :)
And, after reading a bit about it, just had to listen to the first symphony today.
http://www.youtube.com/v/fGRWyyDw9Cc
I really don't know what to say! It's just mind-blowing, awesome, incredible.... and it really does have everything! Someone should have filmed my reaction when the Beethoven 5 quote emerged.... :p The whole piece is just so thrillingly captivating, I'd happily listen to it many times! What exciting orchestration too.... imagine seeing this piece live..... or being part of a performance of it.... woww.... (hopefully one day!!)
Am just absolutely amazed by this piece, and this composer, who is so extraordinary and radical that the idea of exploring his work further really is very, very thrilling indeed. 8) 8)
Excellent, Daniel! I, too, am a hardcore Schnittkian, though my own listening journey was quite different than your own. I had to really work at his music initially but it really paid off as I think he was absolutely brilliant. Enjoy the music! Also, please keep your comments coming! I always enjoy seeing someone so enthusiastic about this music.
His
Symphony No. 1 is a hoot! Great fun indeed.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 23, 2013, 10:50:45 AM
I vote for Шниткеник (Schnittke-nik) . . . .
:D I like that!
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 23, 2013, 10:52:27 AM
Hi, Daniel, long time! :)
Checkout Schnittke's Choir Concerto, it's spellbinding, stands right next to Poulenc's Figure Humaine and Rach's Vespers as one of the greatest pieces for choir from the 20th Century.
Indeed! Hope you have been well? Will check out that concerto, thanks for the recommendation, sounds very exciting!
Quote from: kyjo on September 23, 2013, 11:39:33 AM
Very cool! I like this Daniel fellow! 8) BTW Daniel, I play cello and piano also, though I haven't won any competitions like you have. I'd be interested to hear more about your musical life, but in another thread, of course. :)
Thanks! :D And what good choice of instruments you made :p Would be good to have a conversation sometime. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 23, 2013, 12:57:45 PM
Excellent, Daniel! I, too, am a hardcore Schnittkian, though my own listening journey was quite different than your own. I had to really work at his music initially but it really paid off as I think he was absolutely brilliant. Enjoy the music! Also, please keep your comments coming! I always enjoy seeing someone so enthusiastic about this music.
His Symphony No. 1 is a hoot! Great fun indeed.
Thanks, John! That's interesting, I was just instantly engaged by the sound worlds, and eccentric nature.. it's all so thrilling! Thanks! I will be listening to all of your recommendations this week, and will post comments!
Indeed - so full of surprises! Will listen again this week I think! :) Does anyone have a list of the orchestration for this symphony by the way?
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 23, 2013, 01:02:14 PM
Thanks, John! That's interesting, I was just instantly engaged by the sound worlds, and eccentric nature.. it's all so thrilling! Thanks! I will be listening to all of your recommendations this week, and will post comments!
Indeed - so full of surprises! Will listen again this week I think! :) Does anyone have a list of the orchestration for this symphony by the way?
Aside from Shostakovich and Hartmann, Schnittke's music is some of the most intense I've ever heard. I really feel for the orchestra musicians who perform his music. This music has to be incredibly difficult to perform well. I can only imagine what a work like
Viola Concerto demands of the soloist. Also, in addition to the orchestral music I suggested, check out some of his chamber music like
Piano Quintet,
Cello Sonatas No. 1 & 2, and the
String Trio. Enjoy!
Also, according to Boosey & Hawkes, the orchestration for
Symphony No. 1 is 4.4.4.3sax.4-4.4.4.1-timp.perc:xyl/vib/marimbaphone/jingles/glsp- 2harps-cel-hpcd-pft-organ-bass gtr-strings [12.12.8.8.8].
http://www.boosey.com/cr/music/Alfred-Schnittke-Symphony-No-1/453
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 23, 2013, 06:05:46 PM
Also, according to Boosey & Hawkes, the orchestration for Symphony No. 1 is 4.4.4.3sax.4-4.4.4.1-timp.perc:xyl/vib/marimbaphone/jingles/glsp- 2harps-cel-hpcd-pft-organ-bass gtr-strings [12.12.8.8.8].
http://www.boosey.com/cr/music/Alfred-Schnittke-Symphony-No-1/453
According to Boosey, it will be performed on October 30 in the Royal Festival Hall in London with Jurowski and the LPO. I hope this means that the BBC will broadcast it! Any coincidence that it will be performed so close to Halloween?
EDIT: And here is the info. That's a hell of a program I would kill to see.
http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whatson/london-philharmonic-orchestra-71256?dt=2013-10-30
The Viola Concerto was such a gorgeous, moving piece. The lyrical ideas had such a subtle profundity, which was just absolutely beautiful. Simply incredible music, am listening through again now. Amazing. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 23, 2013, 06:05:46 PM
Aside from Shostakovich and Hartmann, Schnittke's music is some of the most intense I've ever heard. I really feel for the orchestra musicians who perform his music. This music has to be incredibly difficult to perform well. I can only imagine what a work like Viola Concerto demands of the soloist. Also, in addition to the orchestral music I suggested, check out some of his chamber music like Piano Quintet, Cello Sonatas No. 1 & 2, and the String Trio. Enjoy!
Also, according to Boosey & Hawkes, the orchestration for Symphony No. 1 is 4.4.4.3sax.4-4.4.4.1-timp.perc:xyl/vib/marimbaphone/jingles/glsp- 2harps-cel-hpcd-pft-organ-bass gtr-strings [12.12.8.8.8].
http://www.boosey.com/cr/music/Alfred-Schnittke-Symphony-No-1/453
Fantastic! And certainly.... I'd love to be in an orchestra for a Schnittke piece. Imagine being in the percussion section for a piece like the 1st symphony....! :o 8) Thank you for all of your recommendations, and for posting the orchestration of the first symphony! Massive, as I thought! :D
I can sense Schnittke easily becoming one of my favourite composers!
Quote from: lescamil on September 23, 2013, 09:19:56 PM
According to Boosey, it will be performed on October 30 in the Royal Festival Hall in London with Jurowski and the LPO. I hope this means that the BBC will broadcast it! Any coincidence that it will be performed so close to Halloween?
EDIT: And here is the info. That's a hell of a program I would kill to see.
http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whatson/london-philharmonic-orchestra-71256?dt=2013-10-30
WOW WOW WOW WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think that I will
have to book this! Far too awesome a programme to miss....
Daniel, you're putting a big smile on my face with your Schnittke comments. Remember I told you several months to explore this composer? I'm glad you finally took the plunge with some well-intentioned assistance of course. ;) I figured you would be impressed with Schnittke considering how he has that dark Shostakovian/Mahlerian pathos going on in his music. It is these seemingly different sides of his persona that give his music an enigmatic quality. He was also a deeply spiritual individual who always looked for that elevated path --- if this makes any sense.
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 24, 2013, 10:20:02 AM
The Viola Concerto was such a gorgeous, moving piece. The lyrical ideas had such a subtle profundity, which was just absolutely beautiful. Simply incredible music, am listening through again now. Amazing. :)
Fantastic! And certainly.... I'd love to be in an orchestra for a Schnittke piece. Imagine being in the percussion section for a piece like the 1st symphony....! :o 8) Thank you for all of your recommendations, and for posting the orchestration of the first symphony! Massive, as I thought! :D
I can sense Schnittke easily becoming one of my favourite composers!
WOW WOW WOW WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think that I will have to book this! Far too awesome a programme to miss....
Delighted to read this post,
Daniel. :)
Daniel's and John's enthusiasm for Schnittke's music has me thinking a Schnittke marathon is right around the corner for me......
Quote from: kyjo on September 24, 2013, 11:01:15 AM
Daniel's and John's enthusiasm for Schnittke's music has me thinking a Schnittke marathon is right around the corner for me......
I always have a Schnittke phase peeking around the corner. :)
Quote from: lescamil on September 23, 2013, 09:19:56 PM
According to Boosey, it will be performed on October 30 in the Royal Festival Hall in London with Jurowski and the LPO. I hope this means that the BBC will broadcast it! Any coincidence that it will be performed so close to Halloween?
EDIT: And here is the info. That's a hell of a program I would kill to see.
http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whatson/london-philharmonic-orchestra-71256?dt=2013-10-30
Thanks for posting this! I'm always jealous of Londoners because of their close proximity to so much great music-making.
I wonder how our young adventurer Daniel is getting on with Schnittke? Have you listened to Symphony No. 4 yet? If not, here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/v/GlZrJqPrdNQ
Quote from: karlhenning on September 24, 2013, 10:51:22 AM
Delighted to read this post, Daniel. :)
Glad to hear! :D Have been going on about the viola concerto to my friends all day! And listened to my favourite excerpt multiple times on arriving back from school! ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image link=topic=636.msg743584#msg743584 date=1380123088
I wonder how our young adventurer Daniel is getting on with Schnittke? Have you listened toi]Symphony No. 4[/i] yet? If not, here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/v/GlZrJqPrdNQ
I happen to be listening to it just now, around 10 minutes from the end! Amazing piece, so haunting and fascinating... The orchestration really is out of this world as well. The use of the harpsichord is so extraordinary! And I love the use of voices here, how they echo the renaissance so much, sounding so distant, against pedals through the orchestra.. gorgeous.. :)
I reckon I will listen to the Choir Concerto next? :)
And just wow to the tubular bell solos that follow.... this is one of the most mesmerising things I have heard recently.. gorgeous, yet so haunting, with the consistent dark gong sounds and pedals in the strings.
WOWWWWW to that ending, simply WOWW.
Glad you enjoyed it Daniel! :) Yeah, Symphony No. 4 is a mesmerizing piece of music.
Now, for something much more intense for you:
http://www.youtube.com/v/C-2U0kq6z6s
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 25, 2013, 05:41:51 PM
Glad you enjoyed it Daniel! :) Yeah, Symphony No. 4 is a mesmerizing piece of music.
Now, for something much more intense for you:
http://www.youtube.com/v/C-2U0kq6z6s
Something more intense than the 4th symphony? Wow! :p
Just finished it now, and wow, that was a fantastic piece. Absolutely loved it. Constantly being amazed by this composer, and so excited to continue exploring..! What I hear in Schnittke's music is an extraordinary sense of musical realism, of an artist's life.... especially in that context. But, there are places with glimpses of light, like the lyrical part of the second movement of the viola concerto, or perhaps evening towards the end of this symphony, Schnittke's optimism peaking through the realism, but realism always seems to win in the end.....
His music is having a massive effect on me. :)
Liked reading your description, Daniel. Yes, Schnittke's music is so personal. It's as if he's writing with his own blood. His DNA is in everything he composed.
Listen to this when you have time:
http://www.youtube.com/v/7O5Fw72NdQc
The video is split up into three parts, so be sure to listen to them all. Enjoy!
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 26, 2013, 01:03:48 PM
Something more intense than the 4th symphony? Wow! :p
Just finished it now, and wow, that was a fantastic piece. Absolutely loved it. Constantly being amazed by this composer, and so excited to continue exploring..! What I hear in Schnittke's music is an extraordinary sense of musical realism, of an artist's life.... especially in that context. But, there are places with glimpses of light, like the lyrical part of the second movement of the viola concerto, or perhaps evening towards the end of this symphony, Schnittke's optimism peaking through the realism, but realism always seems to win in the end.....
His music is having a massive effect on me. :)
Let us guide you through, though, so you don't... well, you're at Symphonies 4-5? Symphony No.1 is the kitchen sink, maybe too much? No.8 you can save for dessert... do you want?... let John do it haha
I would say listen to Requiem first, Daniel! Save Symphony No. 8 for later. Trust me there's just so much great music that awaits you.
http://www.youtube.com/v/M9UiT_KOE-s
Like that video of Concerto Grosso No. 2 I posted, this video is split up into three videos, so be sure to listen to all of them. Enjoy the music my fellow Schnittkian!
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 26, 2013, 06:10:33 PM
Liked reading your description, Daniel. Yes, Schnittke's music is so personal. It's as if he's writing with his own blood. His DNA is in everything he composed.
Listen to this when you have time:
http://www.youtube.com/v/7O5Fw72NdQc
The video is split up into three parts, so be sure to listen to them all. Enjoy!
Thank you, John! Indeed - the realism of it is incredible.
Just finished listening to the Concerto Grosso no.2 that you suggested, what an amazing, beautiful, haunting piece.... And we get festive Schnittke as well! :P Seriously, that reworking of the 'Silent Night' melody in the last movement was just gorgeous.... Such incredible orchestration and sound worlds. Great piece, Schnittke is definitely in my top 10 now.... :)
Quote from: snyprrr on September 26, 2013, 07:18:27 PM
Let us guide you through, though, so you don't... well, you're at Symphonies 4-5? Symphony No.1 is the kitchen sink, maybe too much? No.8 you can save for dessert... do you want?... let John do it haha
Oh, the first symphony was actually one of the first Schnittke pieces I heard! Loved it! Magnificent piece. Definitely going to see it live later this year....
So, Faust Cantata or Requiem next? :D
And while waiting for your response to that, some awesome Schnittke film music:
http://www.youtube.com/v/AKuMJL1qdnw
Plus the Polyphonic Tango which is just brilliant! 8)
The man could write anything!! :D
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 29, 2013, 05:30:18 AM
Thank you, John! Indeed - the realism of it is incredible.
Just finished listening to the Concerto Grosso no.2 that you suggested, what an amazing, beautiful, haunting piece.... And we get festive Schnittke as well! :P Seriously, that reworking of the 'Silent Night' melody in the last movement was just gorgeous.... Such incredible orchestration and sound worlds. Great piece, Schnittke is definitely in my top 10 now.... :)
Oh, the first symphony was actually one of the first Schnittke pieces I heard! Loved it! Magnificent piece. Definitely going to see it live later this year....
So, Faust Cantata or Requiem next? :D
I'm happy to hear you enjoyed
Concerto Grosso No. 2. It is, indeed, a fine work as are all six of Schnittke's
Concerti Grossi. I would definitely listen to the
Requiem next and save
Faust Cantata for later. I would also check out his massive ballet
Peer Gynt when you have time:
http://www.youtube.com/v/9k4Uu7S5t30
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 26, 2013, 07:29:17 PM
I would say listen to Requiem first, Daniel! Save Symphony No. 8 for later. Trust me there's just so much great music that awaits you.
http://www.youtube.com/v/M9UiT_KOE-s
WOW. I listened to this work outside in the dark, watching the night sky, and have to say that it's quite an emotionally transforming piece.... Such haunting beauty. The Lacrymosa, Sanctus and final Requiem were just so mystically gorgeous. After a work like that, all I can say, considering my mind is in such a state of awe, is that Schnittke is definitely one of my favourites now. The man was an utter genius, with such a beautiful sense of reality and humanity to his music..... incredible.....
Thank you to all who introduced me to this composer, I am eternally grateful. So excited to hear even more! :D
Shall set aside an afternoon for Peer Gynt next weekend, John! But Faust Cantata next? Or something else? :)
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 29, 2013, 02:04:41 PM
WOW. I listened to this work outside in the dark, watching the night sky, and have to say that it's quite an emotionally transforming piece.... Such haunting beauty. The Lacrymosa, Sanctus and final Requiem were just so mystically gorgeous. After a work like that, all I can say, considering my mind is in such a state of awe, is that Schnittke is definitely one of my favourites now. The man was an utter genius, with such a beautiful sense of reality and humanity to his music..... incredible.....
Thank you to all who introduced me to this composer, I am eternally grateful. So excited to hear even more! :D
Shall set aside an afternoon for Peer Gynt next weekend, John! But Faust Cantata next? Or something else? :)
Sounds like a wonderful setting for the
Requiem. I'm proud that you've taken such an affinity with his music. As I told you before, my personal journey with the composer was anything but celebratory, but, in time, he has proven to be one of my absolute favorite composers and I'm sure there are going to be more works where your enthusiasm will blow straight through the roof. :) Happy listening!
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 29, 2013, 02:04:41 PM
WOW. I listened to this work outside in the dark, watching the night sky, and have to say that it's quite an emotionally transforming piece.... Such haunting beauty.
Aye, his
Concerto Grosso is making me 'see
things'.
I love that you listened to the Requiem in the dark watching the sky. Fabulous. For the sake of it, I will sit by my bedroom window in the dark looking at the Hawthorn tree outside the window and the stars beyond whilst listening to it. If it can do that for you, then I will follow your precedent somewhat and see how I like it.
Of course, I'll do that a wee bit later on... ;D
(Cue Twilight Zone music...)
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 29, 2013, 02:04:41 PM
Or something else? :)
Ummmm...Choir Concerto. ;D Especially if you enjoyed the Requiem, then you know how wonderfully Schnittke can compose for voice.
Here's the 4th movement:
Complete This Work Which I Began, this performance is a little slower than I prefer, but it's still divine, and the harmonies are well in tact.
http://www.youtube.com/v/ykuF8h7sFwI
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 29, 2013, 02:20:54 PM
Ummmm...Choir Concerto. ;D Especially if you enjoyed the Requiem, then you know how wonderfully Schnittke can compose for voice.
Here's the 4th movement: Complete This Work Which I Began, this performance is a little slower than I prefer, but it's still divine, and the harmonies are well in tact.
http://www.youtube.com/v/ykuF8h7sFwI
What do you think of the Kaljuste recording,
Greg? (on BIS) That's on Youtube, too:
http://www.youtube.com/v/eCtydlzkcgc
I would like to add this to the thread...
http://www.youtube.com/v/l3e25kvBF0o
Quote from: North Star on September 29, 2013, 02:25:53 PM
What do you think of the Kaljuste recording, Greg? (on BIS) That's on Youtube, too:
Haven't listened to it in its entirety yet, but have been meaning to. What do you think about it?
These are the ones I really enjoy...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518a1Y1U0XL._SY350_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516OCb0jjvL._SS350_.jpg)
...also with a nod to the
Holst Singers, who do an excellent job.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 29, 2013, 02:29:21 PM
Haven't listened to it in its entirety yet, but have been meaning to. What do you think about it?
These are the ones I really enjoy...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518a1Y1U0XL._SY350_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516OCb0jjvL._SS350_.jpg)
...also with a nod to the Holst Singers, who do an excellent job.
Well, I have only heard a bit from it so far, and it's my first time listening to the piece.. No complaints so far. :)
I'm extremely grateful for the BIS and Chandos series of Schnittke, but I wish some other enterprising label would put out another series of orchestral and chamber music. As I mentioned in a post somewhere on the 'listening to now' thread, I would love to hear a label like Hyperion get some of their top-notch musicians together and record Hymns. This is a chamber ensemble work for bassoon, cello, double bass, harpsichord, harp, timpani, and tubular bells. I'm satisfied with the BIS performance, but I could imagine even greater liberties being taken with the music.
http://www.youtube.com/v/4jb6_wsz_p0
http://www.youtube.com/v/wPep6DAQrCI
I first knew Schnittke through the first Cello Sonata (always paired with DSCH), and, certainly at the time I didn't care for it. It's somewhat gnomic, no? Anyone a really big fan? I must have 4 recordings just because of the pairings. Maybe I thought bitterness didn't make for good music? The Cello Sonata No.2 is classically in Schnittke's late style.
As an 'heir' to DSCH, I was certainly expecting Russian Melodies from Schnittke, nut, no, he's none more black.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 29, 2013, 07:00:39 PM
I first knew Schnittke through the first Cello Sonata (always paired with DSCH), and, certainly at the time I didn't care for it. It's somewhat gnomic, no? Anyone a really big fan? I must have 4 recordings just because of the pairings. Maybe I thought bitterness didn't make for good music? The Cello Sonata No.2 is classically in Schnittke's late style.
As an 'heir' to DSCH, I was certainly expecting Russian Melodies from Schnittke, nut, no, he's none more black.
I really like both
Cello Sonatas, snyprrr. My favorite performances, of course, being Ivashkin/Polyansky on Chandos. They've never given me any problems. I think anyone expecting 'Russian melodies' from Schnittke clearly has never done any research on the composer beforehand. I'll stress this, and I hope Scots John is reading this, Schnittke isn't about melodies per se, although he can sling them at the listener any time he wanted, his music is about the journey from point A to point B to point C, etc. Along the way we're given some pretty tough pills to swallow and he certainly even has been known to shove these musical pills down our throats, but it's the strange brew of the music itself that I find compelling. Many listeners want to listen to music that makes them
feel good, I want to listen to music that makes me
feel glad I just listened to a composer's music. In other words, I like coming away with a better sense of not only who the composer is and what his music aesthetically sounds like, but I want some kind emotional/intellectual fulfillment and, for me, Schnittke's music provides these two very different aspects of human nature in spades.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 29, 2013, 03:28:20 PM
This is a chamber ensemble work for bassoon, cello, double bass, harpsichord, harp, timpani, and tubular bells. I'm satisfied with the BIS performance, but I could imagine even greater liberties being taken with the music.
Is this one of the
Hymns? If so, you might like to look out for the Melodiya recording with Alexander Lazarev conducting the Bolshoi Theater Orchestra, these days primarily available on a Vox two-fer, along with the
Three Madrigals,
A Paganini and an intense if rough-around-the-edges reading of the 2nd string quartet:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81KCvXOwlvL._SL1404_.jpg)
As an added bonus, the set also contains short pieces by Gubaidulina and Mansurian, plus a rarely heard masterpiece: Edison Denisov's chamber cantata
Sun of the Incas, IMO the finest work from his early atonal period (and sometimes referred to as the Russian
Marteau sans maitre due to its post-
Pierrot ensemble and delightfully crystaline sonorities).
Quote from: edward on September 30, 2013, 03:49:46 AM
Is this one of the Hymns? If so, you might like to look out for the Melodiya recording with Alexander Lazarev conducting the Bolshoi Theater Orchestra, these days primarily available on a Vox two-fer, along with the Three Madrigals, A Paganini and an intense if rough-around-the-edges reading of the 2nd string quartet:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81KCvXOwlvL._SL1404_.jpg)
As an added bonus, the set also contains short pieces by Gubaidulina and Mansurian, plus a rarely heard masterpiece: Edison Denisov's chamber cantata Sun of the Incas, IMO the finest work from his early atonal period (and sometimes referred to as the Russian Marteau sans maitre due to its post-Pierrot ensemble and delightfully crystaline sonorities).
Yes! That 2-CD Vox set has the
Hymns for chamber ensemble on it, but I can't seem to find a recording at reasonable price. I'll keep looking. Thanks for bringing this one to my attention, Edward! I had never even seen this recording before.
Daniel, Scots John, Karlo listen to this when you have the chance:
http://www.youtube.com/v/9RWe35YrM5E
Quote from: Scots John on September 29, 2013, 02:18:26 PM
Aye, his Concerto Grosso is making me 'see things'.
I love that you listened to the Requiem in the dark watching the sky. Fabulous. For the sake of it, I will sit by my bedroom window in the dark looking at the Hawthorn tree outside the window and the stars beyond whilst listening to it. If it can do that for you, then I will follow your precedent somewhat and see how I like it.
Of course, I'll do that a wee bit later on... ;D
(Cue Twilight Zone music...)
Fantastic, John! It was an amazing experience for me! How did you like the Requiem?
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 29, 2013, 02:20:54 PM
Ummmm...Choir Concerto. ;D Especially if you enjoyed the Requiem, then you know how wonderfully Schnittke can compose for voice.
Here's the 4th movement: Complete This Work Which I Began, this performance is a little slower than I prefer, but it's still divine, and the harmonies are well in tact.
http://www.youtube.com/v/ykuF8h7sFwI
Have spent most of the evening listening to the Choir Concerto, and absolutely adore it. Such pure, gorgeous, angelic music. I could just repeat listening to it over and over.... Stunning....
Thank you guys for all the recommendations, I haven't been more excited about a composer since I was discovering Mahler! This composer is becoming a big part of my life. :)
Ok, 3rd symphony next then, John, tomorrow afternoon! And Faust Cantata after that? Or something else? :)
Wow, very happy to hear that you're continuing to enjoy Schnittke's music so much. He's certainly a composer that I love and admire. He was one of those composers that seemed to not be afraid of touching on things that have already happened in music but he did this in such a such a Modern, and compelling, way that I've become simply glued to every event that happens in the music. The Choir Concerto is a mesmerizing, gorgeous work that, as I mentioned before, is yet another facet to this all-encompassing composer.
Symphony No. 3 would be a work to listen to next as it kind of pays homage to everything that has happened in Germanic music up to that point. Really something else. If I could read music, this would one score I would study. It's so kaleidoscopic.
Does the Concerto for Piano and Strings directly quote the Adagio from Bruckner's 7th? I clearly hear it from the strings several minutes in.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 30, 2013, 03:30:15 PM
Does the Concerto for Piano and Strings directly quote the Adagio from Bruckner's 7th? I clearly hear it from the strings several minutes in.
Good question. I'll have to listen.
@4:11...
http://www.youtube.com/v/E8IwbnmJ_8M
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 30, 2013, 03:52:07 PM
@4:11...
http://www.youtube.com/v/E8IwbnmJ_8M
Yes, okay, well it does use some of that phrasing from the
Adagio of Bruckner's
Symphony No. 7. I do hear it, but it's obviously carried out and resolved in a completely different manner.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 30, 2013, 04:15:49 PM
...obviously carried out and resolved in a completely different manner.
Well of course it does, otherwise it would have to of been called Bruckner's 7th. ;D
I just kept hearing those three chords in my head and it turned into the three chords from Bruckner's 7th, and then it turned into THIS (listen to just the opening 4 seconds, yes it's Neil Diamond)...
http://www.youtube.com/v/hc-v8CFJzu4
Talk about a strange brew: Bruckner, Schnittke, and Neil Diamond. :D
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 30, 2013, 05:07:28 PM
Well of course it does, otherwise it would have to of been called Bruckner's 7th. ;D
Yes, but Schnittke has been known to lift entire pieces of music out of another composer's oeuvre and inject heroin into them and call them his own. :) Listen to, for example, how Schnittke uses Ravel's
Bolero and morphs it into something completely off-center and disorienting:
http://www.youtube.com/v/lEmOn8mRuBA
Listen around 8:24.
Since there was some discussion recently about a disc with the CHOIR CONCERTO and MINNESANG (Parkman/Danish/Chandos), I was curious how it compared to this Hyperion disc directed by Stephen Layton, featuring the same two pieces plus VOICES OF NATURE:
[asin]B00005UO83[/asin]
It's been a while since I worked through this thread; I can't remember seeing it mentioned.
Quote from: Octave on October 01, 2013, 06:06:22 AM
Since there was some discussion recently about a disc with the CHOIR CONCERTO and MINNESANG (Parkman/Danish/Chandos), I was curious how it compared to this Hyperion disc directed by Stephen Layton, featuring the same two pieces plus VOICES OF NATURE:
[asin]B00005UO83[/asin]
It's been a while since I worked through this thread; I can't remember seeing it mentioned.
I like that one,
Octave. Plus you get Minnesang which is a beautiful labyrinth of a piece. Also try Danish National Radio Choir, a little stronger than Holst Singers, plus another Minnesang.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 30, 2013, 09:44:30 AM
Daniel, Scots John, Karlo listen to this when you have the chance:
http://www.youtube.com/v/9RWe35YrM5E
Just finished listening to this - absolutely incredible work! Schnittke is just so AWESOME!!!! A work as amazing as that has left me speechless again.. I just love so much how Schnittke transforms such a variety of melodic/harmonic styles into his own, and the orchestration is mesmerizing too of course!
What's next, John!? :D
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 30, 2013, 03:22:16 PM
Wow, very happy to hear that you're continuing to enjoy Schnittke's music so much. He's certainly a composer that I love and admire. He was one of those composers that seemed to not be afraid of touching on things that have already happened in music but he did this in such a such a Modern, and compelling, way that I've become simply glued to every event that happens in the music. The Choir Concerto is a mesmerizing, gorgeous work that, as I mentioned before, is yet another facet to this all-encompassing composer.
Symphony No. 3 would be a work to listen to next as it kind of pays homage to everything that has happened in Germanic music up to that point. Really something else. If I could read music, this would one score I would study. It's so kaleidoscopic.
Thank you for all your guidance with my Schnittke journey, John! So excited about this composer! Indeed, such a genius.....
And indeed.. incredible work. Felt some references to his predecessors, Shosty and Prokofiev too, at points. Schnittke-fied of course! :p
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 01, 2013, 09:54:16 AM
Just finished listening to this - absolutely incredible work! Schnittke is just so AWESOME!!!! A work as amazing as that has left me speechless again.. I just love so much how Schnittke transforms such a variety of melodic/harmonic styles into his own, and the orchestration is mesmerizing too of course!
What's next, John!? :D Thank you for all your guidance with my Schnittke journey, John! So excited about this composer! Indeed, such a genius.....
And indeed.. incredible work. Felt some references to his predecessors, Shosty and Prokofiev too, at points. Schnittke-fied of course! :p
Awesome, Daniel! Glad you enjoyed
Symphony No. 3. I'm always happy to give you recommendations in hope that find something you really enjoy and looks like Schnittke was sure fire hit! :D
Give this a listen next whenever you get the chance (I think you'll like it):
http://www.youtube.com/v/0g4RFX_RLS0
Here's a cool shorter work for you, Daniel:
http://www.youtube.com/v/rdnmWXkfR3E
I wonder how our young adventurer Daniel is doing with Schnittke?
Hello, Daniel? Are you there? :D
You've put Daniel in a Schnitt-koma.
(This is a good thing btw) 8)
He's a full-fledged Шниткеник (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,636.msg743082.html#msg743082), now!
Quote from: karlhenning on October 04, 2013, 09:59:20 AM
He's a full-fledged Шниткеник (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,636.msg743082.html#msg743082), now!
Even better!! :)
Another Schnittkian classic: Piano Quintet -
Alfred Schnittke's Piano Quintet is a dark and heavy planet. Even in the midst of his bewilderingly prolific output, this extremely personal work commands a massive gravity; it seems to orient, arrange, and set in motion so many of Schnittke's works, before and after. If one wants to find the founding trauma for such a consistently agonizing body of artistic work, it can be found in the Piano Quintet.
This centrality may owe much to the quintet's function: conceived as a memorial to the composer's mother, who died of a stroke in September 1972, here's a composition whose substance was drawn from a real event, powerfully tangible and irrevocable. This kind of reality had not been Schnittke's basis for previous works. His Symphony No. 1 (1972) and other contemporaneous works are brazenly extroverted stylistic carnivals, full of fantasy, denunciation, and dark humor, and are largely artistic statements on art or cultural critiques on culture itself.
In this light, the Piano Quintet was a radical departure into an entirely personal sphere. This shift caused the composer tremendous difficulty. After finishing the first movement very quickly, Schnittke was blocked, "unable to continue because I had to take what I wrote from an imaginary space defined in terms of sound and put it into the psychological space as defined by life, where excruciating pain seems almost unserious, and one must fight for the right to use dissonance, consonance, and assonance."
Hence the Piano Quintet was shelved, and Schnittke did not resume work on it for almost four years. When he did pick up the work again, his musical temperament had changed, becoming more distilled, tauter, and more unabashedly morbid. Schnittke had perfected a personal sound, a dense, claustrophobic web of chromatic clusters. This signatory sound, rich yet obscure, serves as the backdrop for much of his succeeding work, and is seamlessly crafted into this work. The second movement is a wraith-like slow waltz on the name of B-A-C-H (H in German notation is B, B is B flat). The waltz is the only "polystylistic" concession in the piece, and throughout the movement consistently descends back into torturous clusters.
The next two movements form the heart of the work, pulling it increasingly inward. Schnittke explains that they "are real experiences of grief which I would prefer not to comment on because they are of a very personal nature." Both movements bind themselves in shells of stasis; each movement suffers its own shocked outburst and epiphany. Eventually the fourth movement ruptures the thick web of chromaticism that seems to paralyze the work.
After its crushing, cathartic crisis on a single, repeated note, the movement ebbs into the work's final bars, based on a 14-measure theme repeated 14 times in the piano. Over this theme, Schubert-like in its studied rusticity, one hears blanched recollections of previous passages; everything liquefies as it materializes, swept along by the piano theme's current. Eventually a faded reconciliation emerges and the strings are silenced; the work ends on the sonic outskirts as Schnittke instructs the pianist to play tonlos, "without tone."
There is hyper-sentimentality in Schnittke's quintet, a weird excess of morose emotion that exists in few other of his works. Somehow the sentimentality works here, perhaps because of the sincerity of the utterance, perhaps because, despite wearing his heart on his sleeve, Schnittke is not merely personal but also highly idiosyncratic. The work is an uncomfortable twentieth century classic, and a key to Schnittke's music in general.
[Article taken from All Music Guide]
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 01, 2013, 06:05:29 PM
Awesome, Daniel! Glad you enjoyed Symphony No. 3. I'm always happy to give you recommendations in hope that find something you really enjoy and looks like Schnittke was sure fire hit! :D
Give this a listen next whenever you get the chance (I think you'll like it):
http://www.youtube.com/v/0g4RFX_RLS0
Thanks, John!! Schnittke was certainly a fire hit!! :D
Faust Cantata has just finished.... well, I am blown away yet again by Schnittke's awesomeness! Es geschah was actually the first piece of Schnittke I properly listened to, repeatedly of course, so to hear it in context was fantastic. What a climax it is! All of the piece is just amazing, I am just mesmerized. Ending the whole piece with a solo wood block dying away, what a statement.... INCREDIBLE stuff. As you can see by how unclear my writing is here, I am speechless! ;)
Will listen to the Ritual this evening, John, after repeating the cantata I reckon! :D
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 04, 2013, 09:51:06 AM
You've put Daniel in a Schnitt-koma.
(This is a good thing btw) 8)
:D :D
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 06, 2013, 07:26:35 AM
Thanks, John!! Schnittke was certainly a fire hit!! :D
Faust Cantata has just finished.... well, I am blown away yet again by Schnittke's awesomeness! Es geschah was actually the first piece of Schnittke I properly listened to, repeatedly of course, so to hear it in context was fantastic. What a climax it is! All of the piece is just amazing, I am just mesmerized. Ending the whole piece with a solo wood block dying away, what a statement.... INCREDIBLE stuff. As you can see by how unclear my writing is here, I am speechless! ;)
Will listen to the Ritual this evening, John, after repeating the cantata I reckon! :D
Yeah,
Faust Cantata is a stunning work no doubt about it. I'd love to have known how Schnittke came up with these musical ideas and where he drew his inspiration from. The book
A Schnittke Reader which features essays on music written by the man himself is only one fraction of the puzzle. The negative aspect of this book was that Schnittke didn't discuss his music much at all but rather the music of other composers. It's still an interesting read and worth picking up at some point.
As you know, his music didn't sit well with the Soviet government and, though, he didn't have quite the problems Shostakovich had under Stalin's reign, he still had his fair share of difficulties. His music was banned on many occasions along with composers like Denisov and Gubaidulina.
With as much Schnittke listening as I've done, I still have yet to hear the enter Faust Cantata.
Any recs on the best performance?
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 06, 2013, 08:26:55 AM
With as much Schnittke listening as I've done, I still have yet to hear the enter Faust Cantata.
Any recs on the best performance?
James DePreist on BIS and Rozhdestvensky on Melodyia are excellent performances, Greg. The DePreist is an excellent recording overall as it contains some great works and performances like
Ritual,
Passacaglia, and
(K)ein Sommernachtstraum with Segerstam as couplings to
Faust Cantata. The Rozhdestvensky does contain the best performance of
Concerto Grosso No. 2 I've heard, so just buy them both! ;)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 06, 2013, 08:26:55 AM
With as much Schnittke listening as I've done, I still have yet to hear the enter Faust Cantata.
Any recs on the best performance?
I'd go for Rozhdestvensky, personally, for the more "Russian" sound and the extra wildness at points, though DePriest is still good. I haven't heard the Boreyko recording, though.
Technically speaking there's a fourth recording of the cantata in the form of the third act of the opera
Historia von D. Johann Fausten under Gerd Albrecht, but I think it's probably the weakest of the three I've heard.
I'd go for both DePreist and Rozhdestvensky, if that is not too much. DePreist is in German, Rozhdestvensky in Russian, and different language gives the piece bit of different overall tone, at least to me. If I'd to go for one I'd go for German, version in Russian gives me slight Les Noces tinge that I'm not sure I'm keen on, but it's quite possibly just me. Both are generally superb, though, won't make a mistake with either. I haven't heard the Boreyko.
Great! Thanks to John, Drasko and Edward for the recs. 8)
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 06, 2013, 07:26:35 AMEs geschah was actually the first piece of Schnittke I properly listened to, repeatedly of course
That's the part Mrs. Rock insists I encore, over and over 8) We heard it four times this afternoon.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2013, 10:53:31 AM
That's the part Mrs. Rock insists I encore, over and over 8) We heard it four times this afternoon.
Sarge
We should start a competition to see who can encore it the most! I reckon I listened to it around 15 times within 2 hours on the first day I heard it! :p
...making this Schnittkian so proud!!!!
Check this out Daniel if you haven't heard this particular performance already:
http://www.youtube.com/v/6mJ4-ChAVnM
Bought this earlier today:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CC8oVhLUL._SX300_.jpg)
Thanks Edward for bringing this one to my attention. I've been longing for another performance of Hymns.
Listen to this when you have time, Daniel:
http://www.youtube.com/v/JvlN5pp1kBE
Schnittke had an uncanny way with rhetoric -- almost a kind of disorder one might venture to say. It was at work in both his music and his words, and almost always had the effect of turning things wildly upside-down: in a flash, the elevated would fall terribly low, or something of gravest seriousness would suddenly crackle into high farce. It could seem as if Schnittke were trying to say the right thing, but his temperature dials were awry: the salads came out hot, the ice-cream was boiling.
Take for instance Schnittke's casual reminiscence of the creation of his ballet from 1971, Labyrinths. The five-movement, 40-minute, formidably involved score (for chamber orchestra) was written at the behest of Russian ballet-master Vladimir Vasiliev, who had grand plans for a large, episodic competition piece of substantial avant-garde metier, eventually for performance at the Bolshoi Theater. Alas, not much came of the ambitious project: the large first movement was performed with little rehearsal time at competition, after which the dance company broke up and Vasiliev, along with his wife and partner went abroad, apparently for good. Schnittke makes light of the fall-through, noting that upon seeing Vasiliev in New York in the early 1990s, the choreographer completely failed to recall the whole endeavor. But Schnittke's take is pricelessly odd, a thick grand-guignol lacquer on an otherwise matte statement of resignation: "Once again the 'corpse of an idea' remained lying in the cellar of oblivion."
The music to the ballet itself is strangely similar in its mixture of the simplistic and dauntingly sophisticated, the naive and the learned, and the funny and scary; indeed, while the score is not one of Schnittke's better known works, Labyrinths does provide a veritable maze of figures, moods, and techniques which would become archetypes in Schnittke's later output. The first movement's carnivalesque haunted house of timbres founds itself on the Schnittke "continuo" group, a pearly amalgam of keyboard instruments (piano, celesta, harpsichord) and percussion instruments (marimba, vibraphone, bells, glockenspiel) which blend into a sonic hall of mirrors. So effective in the score's long and disquietingly atmospheric first movement, these sounds would undergo greater invention in Schnittke's Second and Fourth Symphonies (1979, 1984), and indeed provide the conceptual spine for Schnittke's last great ballet, 1987's Peer Gynt. Here Schnittke realizes he's onto something, and creates a 15-minute last movement whose monolithic progression simply builds upon this unadorned, reverberant sound-world; the climax, resounding rich major thirds, recalls the work's opening gesture, and does so with marvelous equivocality -- is this joy? Stricken terror? Again, the rhetoric loopiness maintains a poker-face.
The middle three movements are all inventions and developments of a single mood or process. They are for the most part rapid and scherzo-like accumulations, both on the sonic level (layers of sounds accrue, dynamic and timbral screens grow from transparencies into great blocks), and on level of anxiety -- the rhetorical inversion here happens with deft seamlessness, as the playful flies fast into the terrifying.
[Article taken from All Music Guide]
Brian is right, this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,22325.msg748011.html#msg748011) is a fine post. [cross-posted here, as our Schnittke plays a supporting role]
I might be turning my Dad into a Schnittkian as well. I played him the Credo movement from Requiem and he LOVED it! :) He said "Very inventive use of a rock rhythm." I told him this was a good example of Schnittke's polystylistic approach.
I guess Daniel has fallen into the abyss! :D
Just listened to Cello Concerto no. 1 from the Chandos set and damn what an amazing work this is! So full of shattering power and intensity. The last four minutes or so of the 4th movement are extremely moving-almost brought a tear to my eye! :)
Quote from: kyjo on October 10, 2013, 07:56:57 PM
Just listened to Cello Concerto no. 1 from the Chandos set and damn what an amazing work this is! So full of shattering power and intensity. The last four minutes or so of the 4th movement are extremely moving-almost brought a tear to my eye! :)
Absolutely, Kyle. Such a compelling and harrowing work. That last movement, if caught in the right mood, will no doubt bring a tear to your eye. Considering the circumstances of this concerto, it makes the feelings evoked in the music even more meaningful.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2013, 08:02:47 PM
Absolutely, Kyle. Such a compelling and harrowing work. That last movement, if caught in the right mood, will no doubt bring a tear to your eye. Considering the circumstances of this concerto, it makes the feelings evoked in the music even more meaningful.
According to the booklet notes, Schnittke composed this work after he had returned from the hospital, where he suffered a devastating stroke and his heart stopped three times.
Quote from: kyjo on October 10, 2013, 08:06:11 PM
According to the booklet notes, Schnittke composed this work after he had returned from the hospital, where he suffered a devastating stroke and his heart stopped three times.
Yes, I've read this several times too but from other sources. I think I had originally read this in an interview with the composer. I'll have to see if I dig up the link for everyone here. I remember him stating that he had finished half of the work (or at least in sketches) but couldn't finish the work because he suffered that stroke. When he came back to this concerto, he mentioned that those old sketches seemed like that were written by a completely different man. Such a fascinating thing to read.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2013, 08:12:23 PM
Yes, I've read this several times too but from other sources. I think I had originally read this in an interview with the composer. I'll have to see if I dig up the link for everyone here. I remember him stating that he had finished half of the work (or at least in sketches) but couldn't finish the work because he suffered that stroke. When he came back to this concerto, he mentioned that those old sketches seemed like that were written by a completely different man. Such a fascinating thing to read.
Yes, I read that too. I'll definitely have to read more about Schnittke's life in general.
Quote from: kyjo on October 10, 2013, 08:26:19 PM
Yes, I read that too. I'll definitely have to read more about Schnittke's life in general.
Yes, I'm thinking of picking of the biography written by Ivashkin, but some reviewers aren't too favorable of the book. Hell, right now, it's the only game in town unless you, or someone else, knows of another book that I don't know about.
It's worth mentioning that the same pre-/post-stroke dichotomy affects Peer Gynt; if I recall correctly the first three acts were written before his stroke and the Epilogue after.
As for the Ivaskin book; it's rather too hagiographical but does have useful material; I think most of the better Schnittke studies are unfortunately only in German.
Quote from: edward on October 10, 2013, 08:33:12 PM
It's worth mentioning that the same pre-/post-stroke dichotomy affects Peer Gynt; if I recall correctly the first three acts were written before his stroke and the Epilogue after.
As for the Ivaskin book; it's rather too hagiographical but does have useful material; I think most of the better Schnittke studies are unfortunately only in German.
Considering Ivashkin was such an ardent promoter/defender of all things Schnittke, I can see where he might make a 'mountain out of a molehill' so to speak. I didn't realize this about
Peer Gynt until you mentioned it Edward. Most interesting!
*Digs out box set of
Peer Gynt...
Bought this earlier:
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0714831697.01.L.jpg)
Despite it's apparent warts, this will be a useful guide for me, especially since I'm such a hardcore Schnittkian now. 8)
Another Schnittkian classic: Cello Concerto No. 1 -
"I have no sense of the fatal inevitability of evil, even in the most terrible situations. There is no such thing..."
From the sound of his music, one would never guess that Schnittke had "no sense of the fatal inevitability of evil"; his works seem to profess a faith in disaster that would shame Beelzebub himself. And yet one gets occasional intimations that the strength required to so feverishly preach the catastrophic could only be derived from a strangely safe haven, a stance of staunch if secret optimism. Hence when Schnittke had his first major stroke in the summer of 1985, one imagines the particularly cruel toll it must have taken. Having been declared clinically dead -- his heart stopped beating three times -- Schnittke eventually recovered into an enormously creative "late phase" of composition. But something had changed in the music, almost polarized. The sick fun of doom and debacle was gone, replaced on the one hand by a more tortured and unfathomable darkness, and, on the other, by an almost sublime new simplicity, cryptic and imposing.
The First Cello Concerto is an extraordinary work just on its own merits, but also happens to have been written during the summer of 1985; it was composed both before and after the stroke, and so bears the remarkable role of fulcrum in Schnittke's career. Even more so than the celebrated Viola Concerto, completed just days before the affliction, the First Cello Concerto is a touched work.
A monumental endeavor for huge orchestra, in four movements and lasting some 40 minutes, the concerto was written for Schnittke's close friend, Russian cellist Natalia Gutman; the solo part is indeed feverish, and exhausts the performer both technically and emotionally. The work in general -- at least in its first three movements -- largely adheres to Schnittke's concerto-archetype of "I-against-the-World" (as scholar Richard Taruskin writes); the soloist ever-seeks to weave a sincere, plangent melos, to sing and weep its uninterrupted fill, and perpetually suffers both the mockery and raw violence of the orchestra. Thus the first movement founds its vast sonata-form around the conflict of soliloquy vs. blitzkrieg; the following Adagio resurrects the soloist into ephemeral lyrical fabric which is eventually stretched and torn; and the brief and bitter third movement casts the cello through a gauntlet of hopelessly fated march-pastiches and mock-heroics before obliterating itself altogether.
But then, in an uncharacteristic step, another movement follows, a broad and sweeping hymn which actually appears to transcend the brutal ruckus before it, for an almost celestial vision of fortitude. And here, impoverished by emergency, that site where the composer must stand in order to plunge into the quagmire of his mind is forced to speak itself. It is an optimism that is all the more wrenching for being so potently repressed elsewhere -- but, in its awesome fidelity to the unlikely and the graced, it is an optimism nonetheless. Schnittke himself attests to the sense of miraculous: "Suddenly I was given this finale from somewhere, and I've just written it down."
[Article taken from All Music Guide]
Thanks for posting that, John. An insightful description of a remarkable work.
Quote from: kyjo on October 13, 2013, 08:36:05 AM
Thanks for posting that, John. An insightful description of a remarkable work.
You're welcome. All Music Guide has some good articles.
Another Schnittkian classic: String Quartet No. 2 -
In many ways, Alfred Schnittke's entire output bears the signature of tragedy. It is often a bizarre, deeply irreverent tragedy, miles from Greek antiquity. But nevertheless disaster, catastrophe, and lament are everywhere in the thousands of pages which contain Schnittke's name. So when he writes a work inspired by an actual in-the-world tragedy, it adopts a strange multi-layered hue, and offers an unremitting experience.
Schnittke's Second Quartet is the child of such trauma, finished in 1980 to memorialize the composer's close friend, film director Larissa Shepitko, who died from a car accident the previous year. Schnittke confesses that "for me, and for all who knew her, her death came as a severe blow." The quartet that resulted from Schnittke's reaction is a particularly intense experience, and while it employs much that is familiar Schnittke territory, it carries deeper wounds.
For example, Schnittke's hallmark "polystylism" comes through in the use of early Russian sacred music; Schnittke writes that "almost the entire tonal material of the quartet is derived from ancient Russian church song," known for its striking dissonance. But gone is any of the exhilarating funhouse irony which imprints Schnittke's other polystylistic works. Instead, the single model of Russian song is pressed and pulverized with increasingly agonized vehemence; Schnittke treats it monomaniacally as a symbol of the irreparably lost and unrecoverable. In doing so, however, he also writes a work of stunningly sustained creativity. Stravinsky's famous dictum runs that a composition can only arise as the solution to a problem. Schnittke the tragedian offers a counter dictum -- that a great composition can arise out of an impossible search for a solution to an insoluble problem.
The Quartet opens with the cold, isolated sound of high string-harmonics in canon, and at close intervals. Sharp and pale, this music eventually erupts into outburst; Schnittke then quotes, in all its voices, the original Russian hymn on which quartet is based, forming a kind of poignantly hollow center.
Responding to this vulnerable repose, the second movement offers an outraged, depressurizing implosion, an unrelenting explosion of activity warping the Russian hymn's contour in all ways imaginable. It begins with a "refrain" in which the hymn is expanded to four-octave arpeggios in all four instruments, each instrument flying at a slightly different velocity; the remarkable effect reminds one of a globe spinning at self-destructive speed, a kind of unstable atomic delirium barely holding itself together. At various points Schnittke operates like a film director himself, splicing in contrasting scenes of distortive fury; at one brief point this hurtling sphere smolders to a stop and we once again hear the original hymn as it appeared in the first movement. Inevitably, however, the shocked refrain returns, and ends the movement in a choked mid-spin.
This torn-off end leads immediately into the catatonic third movement, marked "Mesto" ("sad"). With equal single-mindedness but a new glacial tone, this movement offers a frozen dirge around a single note, D. Schnittke infuses the sound with a frightening thickness, which eventually swells to a barbaric climax: all four instruments, each bowing quadruple-stops, hammer out seven ffff chords.
The fourth and last movement is a kind of broken epilogue, attempting one last time to capture the missing center. But after a traumatized return to the Quartet's opening bars, Schnittke finally turns away from centers and offers a muted, translucent coda to the whole work. This starlit firmament of string harmonics literally evaporates from sound, ringing out the Russian hymn as it fades. In such a way does the work possess a double memory, of friendship, but also of heritage and history.
[Article taken from All Music Guide]
Looks like Karlo (North Star) can be added the list of resident Schnittkians now. :)
I received that book on Schnittke (Phaidon Press) and I've got say I didn't expect it's presentation to look as good as it did. Lots of nice pictures (I expected just texts). Can't wait to start reading it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 17, 2013, 07:42:19 AM
Looks like Karlo (North Star) can be added the list of resident Schnittkians now. :)
Reporting for duty!
Quote from: North Star on October 17, 2013, 07:44:20 AM
Reporting for duty!
About-face, soldier! Forward march! ;) :D
What of String Quartet No.1? I had it on the Kronos set (long gone), and remember it as fragmented and scrappy. The Borodin do it on some rare cd, with Vainberg I think?
And what of the Gutman CC1 on EMI, with Schuman? That's a nicely gothic cd all around I think.
Quote from: snyprrr on October 18, 2013, 12:12:19 PM
What of String Quartet No.1? I had it on the Kronos set (long gone), and remember it as fragmented and scrappy. The Borodin do it on some rare cd, with Vainberg I think?
And what of the Gutman CC1 on EMI, with Schuman? That's a nicely gothic cd all around I think.
The government shuts down, the snyprrr disappears. The government re-opens, the snyprrr reappears. It seems self-evident that the snyprrr is an artificial intelligence program program running in some sort of classified government research lab.
Quote from: snyprrr on October 18, 2013, 12:12:19 PM
What of String Quartet No.1? I had it on the Kronos set (long gone), and remember it as fragmented and scrappy. The Borodin do it on some rare cd, with Vainberg I think?
And what of the Gutman CC1 on EMI, with Schuman? That's a nicely gothic cd all around I think.
I need to re-listen to SQ No. 1. I haven't heard that Gutman recording (Masur conducting I believe), but I doubt this performance could top Ivashkin/Polyansky on Chandos.
Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2013, 12:20:05 PM
The government shuts down, the snyprrr disappears. The government re-opens, the snyprrr reappears. It seems self-evident that the snyprrr is an artificial intelligence program program running in some sort of classified government research lab.
This computed until you mentioned intelligence. ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on October 18, 2013, 12:12:19 PM
And what of the Gutman CC1 on EMI, with Schuman? That's a nicely gothic cd all around I think.
By the way, have you heard the Ivashkin/Polyansky performance of
Cello Concerto No. 1, snyprrr? I highly recommend it.
No activity in this thread in awhile, did you see my previous message, snyprrr?
In any event, another Schnittkian classic: Symphony No. 1 -
Alfred Schnittke's First Symphony (1972) is one of the later twentieth century's great self-immolating anthems: an icon-smashing icon, a symphony after the death of symphonies, culture rising from culture's ashes. It is a consummate work of neurosis, never doing what's best, never going where it ought, punishing itself for its own irresistible naughtiness. The Symphony catches itself in a perpetual spin-cycle of suicides and resurrections, amidst the junk and jewels of two musical millenniums.
In this sense it's a public work, bellowing the "ode to schizophrenia" that marked Western art of the 1960's and 70's. Another self-defacing monument to an era, it ranks alongside other tumbling pillars of the times like Luciano Berio's 1968 Sinfonia and Peter Maxwell Davies's Eight Songs for a Mad King.
Simultaneously, Schnittke's First also spotlights his own complex situation. Yes, it's a "Postmodern" work and a searing "cultural critique." But it also addresses the public of the former USSR. The freedom it screams isn't simply aesthetic, it's also political; its explosives don't just threaten the masterpiece-museum, they also indict the Soviet system in all its corruption, hypocrisy, and dysfunction.
And yet, at its illusory "bottom," the First Symphony also documents a wholly personal crisis of origins and inheritances. Schnittke is Russian by citizenship, but German by birth; he is of blood both Catholic and Jewish; he is, as he once remarked, "not really at home anywhere." So while Schnittke's Symphony suffers a staggering existentialist crisis of faith, it still receives Catholic burial amidst the ancient "Dies Irae" plainchant. And this funeral is further undercut by the Jewish angst and spiritual homelessness of Gustav Mahler. Likewise, Schnittke exploits the Mahlerian tradition of the expanded Classical symphony--archetypal symbol of the West--but he begins and ends the Symphony with the ideal Russian symbol--the wild peal of bells.
When those bells start to peal, only their player is onstage. With this unreal beginning, signaling celebration and disaster, the rest of the huge orchestra's players begin filing one after another onstage, quasi-improvising. Only when they fill the stage with their cumulative cacophony does the conductor walk onto the podium and "begin" the "real" Symphony--with a lampoonable point of the index finger.
The remainder of this sprawling work is impossible and pointless to summarize; the whole deserves the continuous attention we give a great nightmare. But there are some great highlight-debacles: the "false" recapitulation to the first movement's "sonata-form," where Schnittke emasculates the opening finale-fanfare of Beethoven's Fifth. There is the second movement's wicked "funfare scherzo," piling up the corpses of four centuries' dances and marches; and there is its infamous interruption in a long improvised solo for violin and piano, a 5-minute worm-hole in the Symphony's time-space continuum.
There is the almost inexcusable collapse of the "philosophical" Adagio third movement, whose leap for the light is zapped like a bug; then the finale's acid-jazz, succeeding Tchaikovsky, Chopin, and Strauss. And after the Symphony's last blast into Revelation rubble comes the unforgettable quotation of Franz Josef Haydn's "Farewell" Symphony, where the players file one by one offstage until only two violinists remain. Schnittke only leaves one, playing Haydn's last two notes on a catatonic loop. Nothing is left, and yet Schnittke can't say farewell. Allegory abounds: you can't say goodbye to a country that won't let you leave, just as you can't bury the symphony with another symphony.
And so? The whole thing begins again, with an audacious da capo, bells and all. That the work ends at all is thus only a provision, an escape clause to an insoluble and endless venture.
[Article taken from All Music Guide]
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on October 27, 2013, 05:02:26 PM
Nice description.
Going to see this performed in concert on Wednesday. ;D
I say "see" rather than "hear" because I always imagined it more as a work of theatre.
Nice! I had forgotten that
Symphony No. 1 was going to be performed this month. That should be a great concert as it contains Ligeti and Lutoslawski as well. Please report your thoughts here of the performance of the 1st!
About Schnittke's Concerto for piano and strings:
http://www.youtube.com/v/5vyCc_jFidw
I listened to it yesterday for the first time, it was an absolutely amazing, hauntingly beautiful piece! Great piano virtuosity, the orchestration is really gorgeous, Schnittke handles piano and strings in a splendid way till evoking such an involving, hyptonic atmosphere; the combination and transformation of different harmonic styles are very brilliant, striking, dissonant music which becomes so majestic at some points, the effect is impressive. I love very much how the work, after the slow introduction, slowly comes more and more thrilling and frenzied to an almost false climax that, instead of bursting out into a powerful fortissimo, suddenly shades into silence. Then when it moves again to the second climax, it is even more mesmerizing and suggestive.
I'm glad you enjoyed it, Ilaria. It's certainly a powerful work and one that I've listened to many times. Sometimes in a row. 8)
It's good to see ol' Alfred get some love on this board lately. He certainly deserves it IMHO.
I've got to mention how thrilling Symphony No. 5 (Concerto Grosso No. 4) is while I'm here. That third movement really is something out of this world. It borderlines the same kind of Expressionistic intensity found in Hartmann's symphonies. You can hear the music, and the man himself, coming apart at the seams. How I wish this kind of emotional intensity was found in more of today's music. These Soviet Era composers were really special and, though, several of them conformed to Soviet musical standards (Kabalevsky, Gliere) there were many that rose to the occasion (Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Myaskovsky, Weinberg, and, of course, Schnittke and most of that later generation like Gubaidulina and Denisov that were composing during the 'thaw').
I'll give a brief opinion of each of Schnittke's ten symphonies (if we include the 0 and the 9th as apart of the cycle) -
Symphony No. 0 - A student work and very good one with more traditional harmony. You can hear traces of Shostakovich and Hindemith. I can't say I'm 'in love' with it, but it does have some rewarding moments. The only performance of this symphony that has been recorded is the Hughes on BIS.
Symphony No. 1 - A work that certainly put Schnittke on the map and probably one of the most controversial works in his oeuvre. I remain a bit indifferent to this symphony. I look at as more of a novelty than a substantial piece of music. The musical quotations float through this work as several other surprises like a jazz improvisation. Marches, polkas, etc. are all thrown into this hodgepodge of a symphony. I wish I liked it more, but I don't. The best performance I've heard came from the BIS series with Segerstam.
Symphony No. 2 'St. Florian' - This symphony is essentially a choral symphony. Like Symphony No. 1, this is Schnittke in full-blown polystylistic territory. I do like much of this work and think it sometimes gets some harsh criticism, but I do find much of it beautiful and those dense harmonic clashes in conjunction with the ethereal beauty of the chorus make this work certainly more rewarding than it's predecessor. I think Polyansky and Segerstam both have good performances here. I think I give Polyansky a slight edge over Segerstam just for the sheer vastness and space he gives his chorus and orchestra.
Symphony No. 3 - What a work! I don't even know how to begin to describe this one. Basically, in a nutshell, the whole premise of this symphony from my understanding is it's a symphony that celebrates centuries of Germanic music from Mozart to Mahler to Webern to Stockhausen, etc. I really couldn't tell you anything about the music other than there's a lot of density and some heavy orchestration, but there is clarity to the music that lets the listener access certain points of the 'orchestral fog' if you will. There are two performances of this work: Rozhdestvensky (Melodiya) and Klas (BIS). I love the Klas recording but will be anxious to hear what Rozhdestvensky does with the symphony.
Symphony No. 4 - Like Symphony No. 2 'St. Florian', this work is a choral symphony and remains one of Schnittke's towering achievements IMHO. There are so many textures and I always get the sense of higher elevation in this symphony. It's completely mesmerizing from start to finish. I believe it's based off of an old Russian hymn (I could be wrong) and this hymn forms the basis of the entire symphony and Schnittke really gives it a rigorous workout through the ongoing variations. There are three performances of this work available: Rozhdestvensky (Melodiya), Polyansky (Chandos), and Kamu (BIS). I prefer the Kamu to the Polyansky (haven't heard the Rozhdestvensky yet) for the simple fact that Kamu's performance is less heavy handed and more 'airy' if that makes any sense.
Symphony No. 5 (Concerto No. 4) - What a scorching symphony! It's as if Hartmann, Hindemith, and Bartok at their most aggressive had a baby. :) You can feel the steam rise from this music and Schnittke is completely full of angst and rage. There are some quieter moments, but mostly this symphony isn't for the faint hearted at all. :) There's two very fine performances of this symphony available: Jarvi (BIS) and Chailly (Decca). Both performances are flaming hot!
Symphony No. 6 - A bit of a puzzling work and quite short in overall length. Contains a lot of silence and pauses with eerie whispers from the strings. Occasionally the music does get louder, but this is mostly a reflective work. There are two performances available: Polyansky (Chandos) and Otaka (BIS). I suppose Otaka's performance is acceptable, but I would like to hear Polyansky's at some juncture.
Symphony No. 7 - Another short symphony and one that, like the 6th, puzzles me a bit. This is a bit of a skeletal work like the 6th. In three movements, the first movement I remember but not much else. It's one of those works like that of many of Frank Martin's compositions, that the more time you spend with the work, the more it will begin to reveal it's secrets. there are two performances available: Polyansky (Chandos) and Otaka (BIS). Again, I haven't heard the Polyansky, but would like to and Otaka's performance sounds fine to my ears.
Symphony No. 8 - For me, this is Schnittke's late symphonic masterpiece. This music, to me, sounds like it's so haunted by death and all of the eerie moments of Symphonies 6 & 7 have become full blown here. I wouldn't say this is an earth-shattering work, but music need not be this way to get it's point across. The Lento, which is the longest movement of the symphony, is deeply compelling. During it's 17 minute length, we're hearing a voice that's broken in half and filled with anguish and sorrow, but this dark-hued work does have some light which forms the last, and shortest, movement. I cannot think of a symphony written in the 90s that has had more effect on me than this symphony. There are several performances available: Jia (BIS), Rozhdestvensky (Chandos), and Polyansky (Chandos). The greatest performance IMHO is Rozhdestvensky's with the Royal Stockholm Philharmonic who, I believe, premiered this work.
Symphony No. 9 - I cannot comment on the merits of this work for the simple fact that it's not really a Schnittke-approved work. As many know, his health was horrible around the writing of his 9th and the manuscript he left behind was barely legible, but it was reconstructed by Alexander Raskatov. I think the work reveals some new interesting textures, but I do question whether the composer was in the right frame of mind when writing the work. There are two performances of the reconstruction: Davies (ECM) and Hughes (BIS). Davies sounds better than Hughes to my ears.
*Sorry for any typos, grammatical, and spelling errors in this post, I typed this out pretty fast. :)
Just as a reminder, Schnittke's Symphony No. 1 will be performed and broadcasted on BBC Radio 3 on Wednesday.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03f8c83
What. A Program. Nuff said. Even if you don't care for that particular Schnittke, that is one impressive program that the likes of doesn't come around very often.
Well done on the symphonies notes. Those are actually pieces I know, or have heard, and I'm overdue for another traversal of them. I'm going to be acquiring several more Schnittke recordings before the end of this year; I'm sure I'll be spending some time trawling this thread.
Semi-OT: I recently watched an Alexander Sokurov film that made use of a Schnittke piece, though I could not identify the work.....aggressively pre-Zornian [sorry!] polystylism. It was used in one of the two films that are grouped together as ELEGY OF THE LAND. (I really probably do not recommend the film, btw, unless you are obsessed with ~70s Soviet TV documentaries; the manic, carnivalesque music is rather wasted on endless droning footage of driving along a drab rainy road.)
Actually, looking at films that have used Schnittke's music, it seems maybe he contributed the main theme to Larisa Shepitko's THE ASCENT, a film I did like; but a spare film cue/theme that has haunted me since I first saw the film. That theme crept into my brain again just a couple days ago, over three years since I'd seen the film. Schnittke!
Quote from: Octave on October 28, 2013, 08:50:53 PM
Well done on the symphonies notes. Those are actually pieces I know, or have heard. I'm going to be acquiring several more Schnittke recordings before the end of this year; I'm sure I'll be spending some time trawling this thread.
Semi-OT: I recently watched an Alexander Sokurov film that made use of a Schnittke piece, though I could not identify the work.....aggressively pre-Zornian [sorry!] polystylism. It was used in one of the two films that are grouped together as ELEGY OF THE LAND. (I really probably do not recommend the film, btw, unless you are obsessed with ~70s Soviet TV documentaries; the manic, carnivalesque music is rather wasted on endless droning footage of driving along a drab rainy road.)
Actually, looking at films that have used Schnittke's music, it seems maybe he contributed the main theme to Larisa Shepitko's THE ASCENT, a film I did like; but a spare film cue/theme that has haunted me since I first saw it. That theme crept into my brain again just a couple days ago, over three years since I'd seen the film. Schnittke!
Thanks, Octave. If you need any recommendations then you know where to go and who to ask. :) As for film music, Schnittke, of course, wrote a good bit during the late 1960s and continued to compose them up until his death, although I believe the last film score he composed was
Master and the Margarita (I also believe I read somewhere it's co-written by his son Andrei). For many Soviet composers, this was the only viable way to earn a living. I'll have to do some research on that polystylistic piece you heard in that Sokurov film. As far as
The Ascent, yes, Schnittke wrote the music for that film.
If you're really interested in the film music, check out Frank Strobel's recordings on CPO and Capriccio. They are quite good.
I am back!!
Hadn't listened to any Schnittke for a fortnight due to preparing to conduct an afternoon of Mendelssohn and Schumann (which was lovely!!)
Am currently listening to Faust Cantata again (and again, and again, and again!!). Simply incredible stuff, such genius.
Also came across this article, which is an interesting, moving account of Schnittke from his wife. Not sure if anyone else has read it?
http://en.newstyle-mag.com/interview/irina-schnittke-on-the-genius-composer-and-genius-personality-alfred-schnittke.html
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 29, 2013, 06:20:55 AM
I am back!!
Hadn't listened to any Schnittke for a fortnight due to preparing to conduct an afternoon of Mendelssohn and Schumann (which was lovely!!)
Am currently listening to Faust Cantata again (and again, and again, and again!!). Simply incredible stuff, such genius.
Also came across this article, which is an interesting, moving account of Schnittke from his wife. Not sure if anyone else has read it?
http://en.newstyle-mag.com/interview/irina-schnittke-on-the-genius-composer-and-genius-personality-alfred-schnittke.html
Well it's certainly great to see you posting again, Daniel. Yes,
Faust Cantata was a stroke of genius on Schnittke's part. Such a brilliant composer. Are you going to be asking for any Schnittke for Christmas this year? If so, I'd be curious to see what you've been looking at.
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 29, 2013, 06:20:55 AM
Am currently listening to Faust Cantata again (and again, and again, and again!!). Simply incredible stuff, such genius.
I haven't heard it in full, but listened to the youtube clip Mike Knight posted a week or so ago. "Seid nuchtern und wachet" (Faust Cantata); VII
Very agressive, chilling work. Voices playing off against each other was absolutely brilliant. If that was movement seven how do the other movements measure up? I know one shouldn't snippet listen but this totally grabbed me from the off.
Another one for the list.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 28, 2013, 03:13:57 AM
About Schnittke's Concerto for piano and strings:
http://www.youtube.com/v/5vyCc_jFidw
I listened to it yesterday for the first time, it was an absolutely amazing, hauntingly beautiful piece! Great piano virtuosity, the orchestration is really gorgeous, Schnittke handles piano and strings in a splendid way till evoking such an involving, hyptonic atmosphere; the combination and transformation of different harmonic styles are very brilliant, striking, dissonant music which becomes so majestic at some points, the effect is impressive. I love very much how the work, after the slow introduction, slowly comes more and more thrilling and frenzied to an almost false climax that, instead of bursting out into a powerful fortissimo, suddenly shades into silence. Then when it moves again to the second climax, it is even more mesmerizing and suggestive.
That's my most hated Schnittke work, but I've only ever heard the BIS from the library. The endless 'heart attack stabs' just never did it for me, buuuuut, EVERYONE ELSE seems to love this piece. It cooould be the BIS (I haven't heard it in probably a decade- but I do remember really giving it a shot, getting again and again over a period of years). Surely there would be an interpretation completely different from the BIS, I think it's 26mins. long (how do I remember thaaat???)?
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 28, 2013, 05:30:59 PM
It's good to see ol' Alfred get some love on this board lately. He certainly deserves it IMHO.
I've got to mention how thrilling Symphony No. 5 (Concerto Grosso No. 4) is while I'm here. That third movement really is something out of this world. It borderlines the same kind of Expressionistic intensity found in Hartmann's symphonies. You can hear the music, and the man himself, coming apart at the seams. How I wish this kind of emotional intensity was found in more of today's music. These Soviet Era composers were really special and, though, several of them conformed to Soviet musical standards (Kabalevsky, Gliere) there were many that rose to the occasion (Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Myaskovsky, Weinberg, and, of course, Schnittke and most of that later generation like Gubaidulina and Denisov that were composing during the 'thaw').
The Piano Concerto?
btw- enjoyed the Symphonies Post. That Otaka recording really gets slammed, but it's got both on one, and they make an interesting pair. Still...
I've never heard the 8th, but I think I'd rather prefer my mind's interpretation of it rather than actually hearing it. I'm afraid that every note's going to be right where it's supposed to be (which isn't what I want to hear out of him frankly). The only other one I'm not even curious about is No.2, but the rest I just wish I had the $$$ to go for... but, I shouldn't be dreaming about buying right about now, oy vey.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 28, 2013, 03:13:57 AM
About Schnittke's Concerto for piano and strings:
http://www.youtube.com/v/5vyCc_jFidw
I listened to it yesterday for the first time, it was an absolutely amazing, hauntingly beautiful piece! Great piano virtuosity, the orchestration is really gorgeous, Schnittke handles piano and strings in a splendid way till evoking such an involving, hyptonic atmosphere; the combination and transformation of different harmonic styles are very brilliant, striking, dissonant music which becomes so majestic at some points, the effect is impressive. I love very much how the work, after the slow introduction, slowly comes more and more thrilling and frenzied to an almost false climax that, instead of bursting out into a powerful fortissimo, suddenly shades into silence. Then when it moves again to the second climax, it is even more mesmerizing and suggestive.
Lovely post, thank you!
I think the Concerto for piano and strings is also a good example of Schnittke's music being--as it often is--much more tautly constructed than it might appear on the surface, since formally speaking it appears to be a set of variations on a theme that isn't ever quite fully heard (the last bars of the work are the closest it gets).
I'd like to take a look at the score to 100% confirm that I'm right here, though.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 29, 2013, 07:40:45 AM
Well it's certainly great to see you posting again, Daniel. Yes, Faust Cantata was a stroke of genius on Schnittke's part. Such a brilliant composer. Are you going to be asking for any Schnittke for Christmas this year? If so, I'd be curious to see what you've been looking at.
Thanks, John. Absolutely - what a genius! And oh definitely, I'm very keen to get as much Schnittke as possible into my collection. Definitely the symphonies, and various other discs like the one with the Faust Cantata, and then various recordings of the Requiem, Choir Concerto, concerti etc.
What Schnittke work do I listen to next, John?
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on October 29, 2013, 08:01:10 AM
I haven't heard it in full, but listened to the youtube clip Mike Knight posted a week or so ago. "Seid nuchtern und wachet" (Faust Cantata); VII
Very agressive, chilling work. Voices playing off against each other was absolutely brilliant. If that was movement seven how do the other movements measure up? I know one shouldn't snippet listen but this totally grabbed me from the off.
Another one for the list.
The whole work is absolutely incredible, Tony. I think the general consensus is that Es geschah is the most awesome, addictable movement, but each movement is fantastic. I particularly also love the slower movement before Es geschah, there's a sense of false beauty to it.. and the last movement is just genius too, ending the work with such simple cadences against a woodblock solo.... such implications can be made from that....
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 29, 2013, 10:53:53 AM
What Schnittke work do I listen to next, John?
Remind us Daniel, which works have you heard? Perhaps a symphony you haven't heard yet?
Quote from: edward on October 29, 2013, 09:42:47 AM
I think the Concerto for piano and strings is also a good example of Schnittke's music being--as it often is--much more tautly constructed than it might appear on the surface, since formally speaking it appears to be a set of variations on a theme that isn't ever quite fully heard (the last bars of the work are the closest it gets).
I'd like to take a look at the score to 100% confirm that I'm right here, though.
Hard to say if a theme is ever implied, for most of the piece comes out of that initial grace note motive. It also closely resembles that typical Alberti Bass figure that Schnittke plays with through much of the piece. The score would help you notice it in some sections where a lot of details can get buried in the texture. There are some other explicit allusions to that "theme" in the last few bars before the climax before the cadenza, but can you really call these
the theme of the work?
Either way, this is a fascinating work that I love to bits, and you know it's a great work when you can get such divergent analyses of it.
Quote from: edward on October 29, 2013, 09:42:47 AM
I think the Concerto for piano and strings is also a good example of Schnittke's music being--as it often is--much more tautly constructed than it might appear on the surface, since formally speaking it appears to be a set of variations on a theme that isn't ever quite fully heard (the last bars of the work are the closest it gets).
I'd like to take a look at the score to 100% confirm that I'm right here, though.
Quote from: lescamil on October 29, 2013, 01:22:09 PM
Hard to say if a theme is ever implied, for most of the piece comes out of that initial grace note motive. It also closely resembles that typical Alberti Bass figure that Schnittke plays with through much of the piece. The score would help you notice it in some sections where a lot of details can get buried in the texture. There are some other explicit allusions to that "theme" in the last few bars before the climax before the cadenza, but can you really call these the theme of the work?
Either way, this is a fascinating work that I love to bits, and you know it's a great work when you can get such divergent analyses of it.
From a cursory glance, I think you're both right, to a certain extent at least.
http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/Schnittke_Concerto_for_Piano_and_Strings.pdf (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/Schnittke_Concerto_for_Piano_and_Strings.pdf)
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on October 29, 2013, 08:01:10 AM
I haven't heard it in full, but listened to the youtube clip Mike Knight posted a week or so ago. "Seid nuchtern und wachet" (Faust Cantata); VII
Very agressive, chilling work. Voices playing off against each other was absolutely brilliant. If that was movement seven how do the other movements measure up? I know one shouldn't snippet listen but this totally grabbed me from the off.
Another one for the list.
Looks like all my Schnittke name-dropping paid off! ;) :D Yes,
Faust Cantata is a masterwork. The rest of the work is just as brilliant as that movement you like so much that sounds like, to my ears, a demonic tango. :) Enjoy the music!
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 29, 2013, 10:53:53 AM
Thanks, John. Absolutely - what a genius! And oh definitely, I'm very keen to get as much Schnittke as possible into my collection. Definitely the symphonies, and various other discs like the one with the Faust Cantata, and then various recordings of the Requiem, Choir Concerto, concerti etc.
What Schnittke work do I listen to next, John?
You're welcome, Daniel. Have you heard all of the
Concerti Grossi? All six of these are definitely worth hearing. Of course,
Symphony No. 5 is actually
Concerto Grosso No. 4, so if you've heard this one already, then listen to the other five when you get the chance.
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on October 29, 2013, 07:49:22 AM
I don't own much Schnittke as such, just a cd of his cello works which I really need to dig out again. I can't even find it on Amazon but IIRC remember Karl had the same cd???
I have had my eye on the "10 symphony" set on BIS for a while as we are getting a £50 Amazon voucher soon from work for achieving 2 years without an accident, so half of it is bookmarked for this set. Also getting a Pizza party this Monday when we hit the two year mark.
Schnittke & Pizza sound pretty good :)
This post should be in the Schnittke thread really, but I'll just say you can't go wrong with that symphony set on BIS. Also, if you have some money left over, since you liked the
Faust Cantata so much, get that BIS recording of it w/ James DePreist (also contains performances of
Ritual,
(K)ein Sommernachtstraum, and
Passacaglia). You'll love this recording.
Quote from: North Star on October 29, 2013, 11:36:18 AM
Remind us Daniel, which works have you heard? Perhaps a symphony you haven't heard yet?
So far:
(K)ein Sommernachtstraum
Symphonies 1, 3, 4, 5
Choir Concerto
Requiem
Viola Concerto
Faust Cantata
Concerto Grosso 2
Clowns und Kinder/The Master and Margarita/Polyphonisher Tango
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 29, 2013, 05:05:31 PM
You're welcome, Daniel. Have you heard all of the Concerti Grossi? All six of these are definitely worth hearing. Of course, Symphony No. 5 is actually Concerto Grosso No. 4, so if you've heard this one already, then listen to the other five when you get the chance.
Thanks for the recommendations, John, will do! :D
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 30, 2013, 07:07:17 AM
So far:
(K)ein Sommernachtstraum
Symphonies 1, 3, 4, 5
Choir Concerto
Requiem
Viola Concerto
Faust Cantata
Concerto Grosso 2
Clowns und Kinder/The Master and Margarita/Polyphonisher Tango
Thanks for the recommendations, John, will do! :D
Symphonies Nos. 2, 6, 7 & 8, and
Peer Gynt, then!
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 30, 2013, 07:07:17 AM
So far:
(K)ein Sommernachtstraum
Symphonies 1, 3, 4, 5
Choir Concerto
Requiem
Viola Concerto
Faust Cantata
Concerto Grosso 2
Clowns und Kinder/The Master and Margarita/Polyphonisher Tango
Thanks for the recommendations, John, will do! :D
You haven't heard the
Cello Concerti yet? :o Okay, listen to these ASAP!!!! Also listen to
Sketches (ballet) and the SQs sometime. Oh, and the
Piano Quintet!!!
Also, the works Karlo mentioned, listen to those too! ;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 29, 2013, 05:01:23 PM
Looks like all my Schnittke name-dropping paid off! ;) :D Yes, Faust Cantata is a masterwork. The rest of the work is just as brilliant as that movement you like so much that sounds like, to my ears, a demonic tango. :) Enjoy the music!
:laugh:
I dug out my one and only 'so far' Schnittke cd this morning before going to work, it will be ready to roll in about a half hour time. Its been so long since hearing this cd and the various contents that it will be like hearing a new cd!!
[asin]B000TCWZVQ[/asin]
Epilogue from Peer Gynt, Cello Sonata No.2, Musica Nostalgica & Cello Sonata No.1
David Geringas vc, Tatjana Geringas pn
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 29, 2013, 05:01:23 PM
Looks like all my Schnittke name-dropping paid off! ;) :D
What secret tactics are you using to promote Schnittke, John? ;) Because I don't seem to be too successful in promoting, oh, you know who........
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on October 30, 2013, 08:58:04 AM
:laugh:
I dug out my one and only 'so far' Schnittke cd this morning before going to work, it will be ready to roll in about a half hour time. Its been so long since hearing this cd and the various contents that it will be like hearing a new cd!!
[asin]B000TCWZVQ[/asin]
Epilogue from Peer Gynt, Cello Sonata No.2, Musica Nostalgica & Cello Sonata No.1
David Geringas vc, Tatjana Geringas pn
I haven't heard that recording, but I've seen it before. What are your impressions of the music and performances? Right now, I'm revisiting
Violin Concerto No. 4. I do like this concerto a good bit, but feel indifferent to the 2nd. I need to re-listen to the 3rd. Schnittke wrote four VCs by the way. These works aren't as strong musically as the CCs, but there are some rewarding moments throughout.
Quote from: kyjo on October 30, 2013, 11:07:51 AM
What secret tactics are you using to promote Schnittke, John? ;) Because I don't seem to be too successful in promoting, oh, you know who........
My secret tactic is the Jedi mind trick "You will listen to Schnittke now" or "You will listen to
Concerto Grosso No. 6 immediately" and that sort of thing. ;D
Just listened to the 1st cello concerto........
I don't know if I'm in a fit state to write about it right now.. it has left me speechless.
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 31, 2013, 07:06:17 AM
Just listened to the 1st cello concerto........
I don't know if I'm in a fit state to write about it right now.. it has left me speechless.
I figured it might, Daniel! ;D
Cello Concerto No. 1, as well as the
Cello Concerto No. 2, are emotionally gripping works and dare I say some of the best cello concertante works written in the past 25 years.
I'm pretty sure you listened to the YT performance of CC No. 1, but if you're going to buy any performances of these works get the Ivashkin/Polyansky set on Chandos. You will not be sorry! :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 31, 2013, 07:27:55 AM
I figured it might, Daniel! ;D Cello Concerto No. 1, as well as the Cello Concerto No. 2, are emotionally gripping works and dare I say some of the best cello concertante works written in the past 25 years.
I'm pretty sure you listened to the YT performance of CC No. 1, but if you're going to buy any performances of these works get the Ivashkin/Polyansky set on Chandos. You will not be sorry! :)
Good idea, I think I'll listen to this myself. In fact, I'll start with Symphony No. 7, good disc all around...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41l88URuGDL._SY250_.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 30, 2013, 05:52:21 PM
I haven't heard that recording, but I've seen it before. What are your impressions of the music and performances? Right now, I'm revisiting Violin Concerto No. 4. I do like this concerto a good bit, but feel indifferent to the 2nd. I need to re-listen to the 3rd. Schnittke wrote four VCs by the way. These works aren't as strong musically as the CCs, but there are some rewarding moments throughout.
[asin]B000TCWZVQ[/asin]
John, I listened to the first work (twice) last night the Epilogue from "Peer Gynt", for cello, piano & tape. It's a marvellous work. I am assuming the tape part is on a loop, sitting in the background whilst the cello and piano play out. What really amazed me is the way he leads you down the melodic path with some wonderful themes then just as you think the melody is getting very lyrical and going one way he slaps you back into focus with gloomy minor change. I am probably not describing this too well but its adoration brought back to earth with a vehement slap...all superbly done. The tape works cajoligly in tandem with the two solo instruments.
The other works on the cd need more attention as I've only heard them a couple of times over the last year or two. I think I rather dismissed it coldly at the time,...wrongly. Live & Learn.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 31, 2013, 07:27:55 AM
I figured it might, Daniel! ;D Cello Concerto No. 1, as well as the Cello Concerto No. 2, are emotionally gripping works and dare I say some of the best cello concertante works written in the past 25 years.
I'm pretty sure you listened to the YT performance of CC No. 1, but if you're going to buy any performances of these works get the Ivashkin/Polyansky set on Chandos. You will not be sorry! :)
:D Am I right in thinking that Schnittke wrote this piece after a series of strokes? At the ending, I was thinking that he wrote how close he felt to death, but the flashes of light at the end were bringing him back.. Simply incredible piece. Had me in tears..
I think I'll listen to the 2nd cello concerto this afternoon too.
I did indeed - and OK, I shall take you recommendation! I'm not sure I can wait until Christmas to add a vast amount of Schnittke to my collection, so I might start buying soon! :)
(* looks around for instruments of table-pounding *)
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 31, 2013, 08:11:33 AM
I did indeed - and OK, I shall take you recommendation! I'm not sure I can wait until Christmas to add a vast amount of Schnittke to my collection, so I might start buying soon! :)
Ha! Same here Daniel, but I might just have to wait as the Amazon Voucher for £50 from work somehow now looks like an ASDA voucher...darned ASDA don't sell Schnittke!! Anyway, I am going to divvy up the £££'s for the Symphony set and collect on the Amazon vouchers for Christmas (that's what the family all buy me...its a kop out LOL) but it beats Socks and Deodorant and Talc in a can!!! LOL.
First recording I am putting on order is the BIS Faust Cantata this weekend...this is a must, very attracted to this work after the brief one mvt youtube hearing.
I certainly went on a big Schnittke binge first off, I do completely understand.
About the 3rd Symphony:
http://www.youtube.com/v/9RWe35YrM5E
It is an absolutely wonderful, powerfully suggestive piece, it never stopped astonishing me for all the time! Schnittke's orchestral colour and great ability of combining and transforming different harmonic styles were really gorgeous and rather impressed me in the Concerto for piano and strings, but in this symphony, that arrives on an incredible, astounding level. I absolutely loved the weaving of the first movement, how it gets more and more haunting and fiercely tragic till bursting into epic massive climaxes that suddenly shade and start in a crescendo again. The second movement Allegro is very surprising, it sounds pervaded by a morbid atmosphere, but at the same time it expresses Beethoven's poetical beauty and passionate energy (especially in the first part), merged with bachian reminiscences (harpsichord and organ), Mozart's elegance and brilliance in the charming piano motif and a picturesque straussian waltz. The Allegretto is thrilling and mesmerizing, with great percussion section; I enjoyed the finale very much, beautifully overwhelming and contemplative, it reminded me a Mahler adagio.
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on October 31, 2013, 08:30:20 AM
Ha! Same here Daniel, but I might just have to wait as the Amazon Voucher for £50 from work somehow now looks like an ASDA voucher...darned ASDA don't sell Schnittke!! Anyway, I am going to divvy up the £££'s for the Symphony set and collect on the Amazon vouchers for Christmas (that's what the family all buy me...its a kop out LOL) but it beats Socks and Deodorant and Talc in a can!!! LOL.
First recording I am putting on order is the BIS Faust Cantata this weekend...this is a must, very attracted to this work after the brief one mvt youtube hearing.
:D hahaha!
Yes, I think that's going to be the first disc I get too, brilliant set of works. Faust Cantata is certainly overall one of my favourite Schnittke works.
If I had to give a list of my 5 favourite Schnittke works so far, it would probably have to be: Faust Cantata, 4th symphony, Viola Concerto, 1st Cello Concerto, Requiem. (+Choir Concerto!)
Very nice description of Schnittke 3, Ilaria! Great piece!
Just listened to the 2nd cello concerto.. incredible piece. What magical sounds within the finale.... Haunting and gorgeous....
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 31, 2013, 09:54:54 AM
Very nice description of Schnittke 3, Ilaria! Great piece!
Thank you! Yes, it's a gorgeous work indeed.
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 31, 2013, 07:06:17 AM
Just listened to the 1st cello concerto........
I don't know if I'm in a fit state to write about it right now.. it has left me speechless.
Yes, the ending (especially) left me speechless indeed.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 31, 2013, 07:36:24 AM
Good idea, I think I'll listen to this myself. In fact, I'll start with Symphony No. 7, good disc all around...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41l88URuGDL._SY250_.jpg)
Indeed, Greg. Enjoy!
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on October 31, 2013, 08:09:19 AM
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John, I listened to the first work (twice) last night the Epilogue from "Peer Gynt", for cello, piano & tape. It's a marvellous work. I am assuming the tape part is on a loop, sitting in the background whilst the cello and piano play out. What really amazed me is the way he leads you down the melodic path with some wonderful themes then just as you think the melody is getting very lyrical and going one way he slaps you back into focus with gloomy minor change. I am probably not describing this too well but its adoration brought back to earth with a vehement slap...all superbly done. The tape works cajoligly in tandem with the two solo instruments.
The other works on the cd need more attention as I've only heard them a couple of times over the last year or two. I think I rather dismissed it coldly at the time,...wrongly. Live & Learn.
I think this 'slap in the face' after a melodic episode is precisely why I enjoy his music so much. He doesn't sugarcoat his feelings and I think he believes that the harshness of the reality we live in must be felt in everyday music, because if it's not, then he's
pretending to be something he simply is not. From what I have read so far, he was a humble, down-to-earth man with a general concern for others. This, too, shows in his music. I'm also thinking that sometimes we don't want to hear what someone
really thinks, because there are times when we're just not attuned to or want to be subjected to that kind of honesty. The way I feel about it is if you don't
really want to know how someone feels, then simply don't ask them. I was one of those guilty ones who dismissed Schnittke's music and I seriously regret saying these negative things now, because turned out to be, like so many composers I've struggled, one of my most beloved composers. Like you said, live and learn.
Not
everything by Schnittke grabs me, but there's so much of it that does and anything that I feel indifferent towards is my own failing as a listener and certainly not the composer's fault. All of this said, I'm happy to hear you're enjoying his music now and I look forward to hopefully reading more of your commentary.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 31, 2013, 09:03:33 AM
About the 3rd Symphony:
http://www.youtube.com/v/9RWe35YrM5E
It is an absolutely wonderful, powerfully suggestive piece, it never stopped astonishing me for all the time! Schnittke's orchestral colour and great ability of combining and transforming different harmonic styles were really gorgeous and rather impressed me in the Concerto for piano and strings, but in this symphony, that arrives on an incredible, astounding level. I absolutely loved the weaving of the first movement, how it gets more and more haunting and fiercely tragic till bursting into epic massive climaxes that suddenly shade and start in a crescendo again. The second movement Allegro is very surprising, it sounds pervaded by a morbid atmosphere, but at the same time it expresses Beethoven's poetical beauty and passionate energy (especially in the first part), merged with bachian reminiscences (harpsichord and organ), Mozart's elegance and brilliance in the charming piano motif and a picturesque straussian waltz. The Allegretto is thrilling and mesmerizing, with great percussion section; I enjoyed the finale very much, beautifully overwhelming and contemplative, it reminded me a Mahler adagio.
Wonderful description, Ilaria. This work is very much a 'Germanic time capsule'. It's look into this history of Germanic music but from the different angles of a fun house mirror and maybe a better analogy would be this work, like so many of Schnittke's other works, could be viewed as a 3D card --- the music completely changes depended on what angle it's tilted. :) Glad you enjoyed this mesmerizing work.
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 31, 2013, 08:11:33 AM
:D Am I right in thinking that Schnittke wrote this piece after a series of strokes? At the ending, I was thinking that he wrote how close he felt to death, but the flashes of light at the end were bringing him back.. Simply incredible piece. Had me in tears..
I think I'll listen to the 2nd cello concerto this afternoon too.
I did indeed - and OK, I shall take you recommendation! I'm not sure I can wait until Christmas to add a vast amount of Schnittke to my collection, so I might start buying soon! :)
Yes, I believe he was almost completed with
Cello Concerto No. 1 and had a stroke, but came back to the work and finished the finale. That final movement is life-affirming no question about it. This work also marks a change in direction for his music not too much longer after it's completion. His music became more introspective and is very much haunted by death. This would be his third and final musical phase.
A few recommendations of mine and please note they will vary with each listener:
[asin]B000027EI2[/asin]
[asin]B002UPQEL2[/asin]
[asin]B000VPNK38[/asin]
[asin]B000092R5A[/asin]
[asin]B0000AWDDA[/asin]
I tried to avoid any duplicates and OOP recordings in my recommendations but the
Viola Concerto performance with Bashmet/Rostropovich is OOP, but this one with Bashmet/Rozhdestvensky is a smoking performance as well. I have own, and have heard, both numerous times. They're both worth owning. I don't think you'll be disappointed either way you go here. Also, there are several other fine performances of
Choir Concerto and
Requiem available, but this Scandinavian Classics recording is an easy way to get both works under the same roof. It also helps that these are very fine performances. :)
Enjoy the music my fellow Schnittkian!
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 31, 2013, 06:31:48 PM
Yes, I believe he was almost completed with Cello Concerto No. 1 and had a stroke, but came back to the work and finished the finale. That final movement is life-affirming no question about it. This work always marks a change in direction for his music not too much longer after it's completion. His music became more introspective and is very much haunted by death. This would be his third and final musical phase.
A few recommendations of mine and please note they will vary with each listener:
I tried to avoid any duplicates and OOP recordings in my recommendations but the Viola Concerto performance with Bashmet/Rostropovich is OOP, but this one with Bashmet/Rozhdestvensky is a smoking performance as well. I have own, and have heard, both numerous times. They're both worth owning. I don't think you'll be disappointed either way you go here. Also, there are several other fine performances of Choir Concerto and Requiem available, but this Scandinavian Classics recording is an easy way to get both works under the same roof. It also helps that these are very fine performances. :)
Enjoy the music my fellow Schnittkian!
Interesting - well, you can certainly hear those thoughts depicted in the finale of the concerto. Mesmerizing music.
Thanks for the list of recommendations, I have my eye on each of those and shall definitely start buying soon!
Just listened to the Piano Quintet for the first time, the first non-orchestral Schnittke I have heard, and what an excellent piece it is. The final movement was gorgeous - Schnittke's treatment in the delicacy of the repetition of that simple, diatonic piano ostinato was genius.. Stunning. :)
Just a reminder that you can hear Michail Jurowski conducting the LPO in Schnittke's 1st symphony for the next five days on the BBC Radio 3 site:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03f8c83/Radio_3_Live_in_Concert_LPO_Ligeti_Lutoslawski_Schnittke/
If anyone is interested, I have converted that to MP3 256 for anyone that wants to keep it past that date. Just let me know. I've kept all the commentary, also. Michail Jurowski's introductions (in broken English) are quite informative, too!
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 01, 2013, 08:44:42 AM
Interesting - well, you can certainly hear those thoughts depicted in the finale of the concerto. Mesmerizing music.
Thanks for the list of recommendations, I have my eye on each of those and shall definitely start buying soon!
Just listened to the Piano Quintet for the first time, the first non-orchestral Schnittke I have heard, and what an excellent piece it is. The final movement was gorgeous - Schnittke's treatment in the delicacy of the repetition of that simple, diatonic piano ostinato was genius.. Stunning. :)
Agree with you 100% about the
Piano Quintet. A fine work indeed, Daniel. Listen to this next:
http://www.youtube.com/v/YcBljha30eQ
This is
Hymn No. 4 from his work for chamber ensemble titled
Hymns which is written for bassoon, cello, double bass, harpsichord, harp, timpani, and tubular bells.
http://www.youtube.com/v/VGc-Tu_1yGw
Good stuff here. Thanks to youtube now, I think there will still be plenty of Schnittke discoveries for me.
Quote from: Greg on November 02, 2013, 06:40:51 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/VGc-Tu_1yGw
Good stuff here. Thanks to youtube now, I think there will still be plenty of Schnittke discoveries for me.
Yep, a stunning work for sure. There's a lot of Schnittke on YT fortunately. Of course, once you become a Schnittkian, you will have acquired the recordings. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 02, 2013, 06:15:27 PM
Yep, a stunning work for sure. There's a lot of Schnittke on YT fortunately. Of course, once you become a Schnittkian, you will have acquired the recordings. :)
I ended up listening to the rest of the Choir Concerto and it was definitely the best a cappella choir work I've heard.
Pretty much I'll probably be discovering some lesser known Schnittke works and revisiting some more probably, since I've already heard all of his major works.
Quote from: Greg on November 02, 2013, 06:37:48 PM
I ended up listening to the rest of the Choir Concerto and it was definitely the best a cappella choir work I've heard.
Pretty much I'll probably be discovering some lesser known Schnittke works and revisiting some more probably, since I've already heard all of his major works.
Sounds good, Greg. 8) If you would like, please post your thoughts and/or what you'll be listening to, so I can pound some tables. ;) :D
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 02, 2013, 07:32:03 PM
Sounds good, Greg. 8) If you would like, please post your thoughts and/or what you'll be listening to, so I can pound some tables. ;) :D
Actually, now that I think about it, there are still some of his main works which I either never listened to or forgot if I did.
Just finished the Viola Concerto.
http://www.youtube.com/v/L4CDD2w5E0I
Good lawd. What a genius madman. Love it and can't wait to listen again.
*karate chops table*
Quote from: Greg on November 02, 2013, 08:05:19 PM
Actually, now that I think about it, there are still some of his main works which I either never listened to or forgot if I did.
Just finished the Viola Concerto.
http://www.youtube.com/v/L4CDD2w5E0I
Good lawd. What a genius madman. Love it and can't wait to listen again.
*karate chops table*
:) Couldn't agree more!
*sledge hammers the table*
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 02, 2013, 08:32:51 PM
*sledge hammers the table*
.....must be a result of your listening to Mahler 6! ;)
Quote from: kyjo on November 02, 2013, 08:39:29 PM
.....must be a result of your listening to Mahler 6! ;)
Bingo! ;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 01, 2013, 05:33:56 PM
Agree with you 100% about the Piano Quintet. A fine work indeed, Daniel. Listen to this next:
http://www.youtube.com/v/YcBljha30eQ
This is Hymn No. 4 from his work for chamber ensemble titled Hymns which is written for bassoon, cello, double bass, harpsichord, harp, timpani, and tubular bells.
Well, that was brilliant! Enjoyed it very much! :)
Now enjoying this very cunning work:
http://www.youtube.com/v/3S7q9sXMw9s
Fantastic writing, love the sneaky DSCH motif and Le Sacre quotes :D
>:D >:D >:DJust to let you know I've been obsessing about Schnittke since this Thread went nucluler! >:D >:D >:D
...but no money...
Especially that Erato disc with the Piano Concerto- in the original cover...
btw- there was one newish Piano Concerto that clocked in at almost 28mins.!
Quote from: snyprrr on November 04, 2013, 08:33:55 AM
>:D >:D >:DJust to let you know I've been obsessing about Schnittke since this Thread went nucluler! >:D >:D >:D
...but no money...
Especially that Erato disc with the Piano Concerto- in the original cover...
btw- there was one newish Piano Concerto that clocked in at almost 28mins.!
Cool snyprrr! When you say
Piano Concerto are you referring to his
Concerto for Piano and Strings or his student work simply titled
Piano Concerto?
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 04, 2013, 09:02:13 AM
Cool snyprrr! When you say Piano Concerto are you referring to his Concerto for Piano and Strings or his student work simply titled Piano Concerto?
The one with the heart attacks or strokes, gaaah.
What do you think of the Concerti Grosso 5-6, and have you heart Daniel Hope (Nimbus) in 6? What's your exhaustive take on the CGs 1-6?
Quote from: snyprrr on November 04, 2013, 04:05:46 PM
The one with the heart attacks or strokes, gaaah.
What do you think of the Concerti Grosso 5-6, and have you heard Daniel Hope (Nimbus) in 6? What's your exhaustive take on the CGs 1-6?
It must be the
Concerto for Piano Four Hands and Chamber Orchestra you're talking about then, which was written in 1988. Anyway, I haven't heard Hope's performance on Nimbus of
Concerto Grosso No. 6, but I'll pass as I never liked his playing nor do I like Nimbus' audio. As for giving a list of the
Concerti Grossi, this will have to wait awhile unfortunately.
Time to revive this thread, I wonder how our young adventurer, Daniel (Madaboutmahler), is going coming along with Schnittke? Have you decided on any recordings to get for Christmas?
I've discovered (or rediscovered) quite a bit of Schnittke lately. A few I've been enjoying recently include Labyrinths, Piano Sonata 1, and the Requiem.
I'm thinking that a better term for his style would be Surrealism instead of Polystylism.
Quote from: Greg on November 20, 2013, 05:07:51 AM
I've discovered (or rediscovered) quite a bit of Schnittke lately. A few I've been enjoying recently include Labyrinths, Piano Sonata 1, and the Requiem.
I'm thinking that a better term for his style would be Surrealism instead of Polystylism.
Love the
Requiem. Enjoy
Labyrinths. Still need to hear
Piano Sonata No. 1. Why would Surrealism, in your opinion, Greg, apply to Schnittle more than Polystylism?
If that can make Mirror Image happy, I'm on a Schnittke run since a few days. I'm listening to all the concert works chronologically, starting in 1969 with Symphony n°1. I'm in 1984 right now.
Just a Point of Information: this thread is about more than making any one of us happy ;)
I don't think there is anything more important than making someone happy. :D
That's just what Schnittke said!
Under the influence of this thread I've listened to all the Schnittke I can hear. And I love it! Symphonies, Concerti Grossi, Concertos, Sonatas, Cantatas, Film Music, Chamber Music, etc. I don't think I've heard anything I don't like. From the wacky Gogol Suite to the bleak 8th Symphony... I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. I guess I just came here to say that Schnittke's amazing. ;D
Really, his music just sounds completely open, and honest to me. Even in the most completely polystylistic pieces I still clearly hear Schnittke. And it's not just that. Instead of losing his voice with the technique, or just barely keeping it there, the technique actually reinforced it. That's not something I can imagine being easy, and he pulled it off spectacularly. And what a voice it is! At times humorous, melancholy, loving, spiritual, spiteful, and all these other words that go through my head as I listen. Did I say I love Schnittke's music? :D
Has anyone here seen The Glass Harmonica? It's on youtube, and I thought it was fantastic. The animation is insane, and makes the perfect visual accompaniment to Schnittke's score.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAOEzdWDYFA
Quote from: Mr Bloom on November 21, 2013, 07:25:13 AM
If that can make Mirror Image happy, I'm on a Schnittke run since a few days. I'm listening to all the concert works chronologically, starting in 1969 with Symphony n°1. I'm in 1984 right now.
No need to make me happy, Mr. Bloom. If you're enjoying the music then that's awesome! Schnittke is one of my favorites and I love his music so much. The 1985 is a great year creatively for Schnittke (obviously not health-wise as he suffered a stroke later on in the year I believe) but the
Choir Concerto saw completion as did the
Viola Concerto,
Concerto Grosso No. 3, and
(K)ein Sommernachtstraum. So lots to enjoy there! :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 20, 2013, 05:56:04 AM
Love the Requiem. Enjoy Labyrinths. Still need to hear Piano Sonata No. 1. Why would Surrealism, in your opinion, Greg, apply to Schnittle more than Polystylism?
Because it's not just about demonstrating different styles; maybe the 1st symphony is appropriately Polystylistic, but much of his other work may only have one or two elements of styles that aren't modernism. The effect is odd and strange, whereas in something polystylistic I wouldn't think that modernist qualities would dominate a work so much, but instead have a more balanced amount of styles. This probably makes no sense, but I have a headache and can't think right now. :P
Quote from: Greg on November 21, 2013, 05:45:46 PM
Because it's not just about demonstrating different styles; maybe the 1st symphony is appropriately Polystylistic, but much of his other work may only have one or two elements of styles that aren't modernism. The effect is odd and strange, whereas in something polystylistic I wouldn't think that modernist qualities would dominate a work so much, but instead have a more balanced amount of styles. This probably makes no sense, but I have a headache and can't think right now. :P
I understand what you're saying, Greg. I think his music does transcend that "Polystylism" label, too. I mean how do you even classify something like his
Symphony No. 8? How do we even began to deconstruct
Peer Gynt? I mean these are things that go well beyond such a label. Schnittke is just one of those composers that refused to be pigeonholed.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 21, 2013, 05:52:37 PM
is just one of those composers that refused to be pigeonholed.
Jackie Mason-meets-Bruckner
Looks like I've got another Schnittkian favorite: the Concerto Grosso no. 2. Just finished listening to the Chandos recording of it and I'm very impressed! The second movement, in particular, is really something else in its intensity. I love that part near the end of this movement with the low brass and percussion-quite scary! I love how the last movement suddenly collapses into despair, ending the work on a highly unsettling, creepy note. Anyone else a fan of this work?
Quote from: kyjo on November 26, 2013, 08:23:08 PM
Looks like I've got another Schnittkian favorite: the Concerto Grosso no. 2. Just finished listening to the Chandos recording of it and I'm very impressed! The second movement, in particular, is really something else in its intensity. I love that part near the end of this movement with the low brass and percussion-quite scary! I love how the last movement suddenly collapses into despair, ending the work on a highly unsettling, creepy note. Anyone else a fan of this work?
I, too, enjoy this work, but prefer the Rozhdestvensky recording over the Polyansky.
Quote from: kyjo on November 26, 2013, 08:23:08 PM
Looks like I've got another Schnittkian favorite: the Concerto Grosso no. 2. Just finished listening to the Chandos recording of it and I'm very impressed! The second movement, in particular, is really something else in its intensity. I love that part near the end of this movement with the low brass and percussion-quite scary! I love how the last movement suddenly collapses into despair, ending the work on a highly unsettling, creepy note. Anyone else a fan of this work?
It is one of the discoveries of my "Schnittke run". It's one my favorite Schnittke piece.
Quote from: Mr Bloom on November 28, 2013, 05:02:46 AM
It is one of the discoveries of my "Schnittke run". It's one my favorite Schnittke piece.
Yep, it's sure turning out to be one of my favorite Schnittke works as well!
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 19, 2013, 08:16:57 PM
Time to revive this thread, I wonder how our young adventurer, Daniel (Madaboutmahler), is going coming along with Schnittke? Have you decided on any recordings to get for Christmas?
Still one of my favourite composers, John! I'm sure I'll be listening to much more of his music fairly soon. The BIS Faust Cantata CD is right at the top of my Christmas list, as well as the Viola/Cello Concerts from Bashmet/Gutman, and a recording of Choir Concerto/Requiem. :)
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 28, 2013, 10:33:58 AM
Still one of my favourite composers, John! I'm sure I'll be listening to much more of his music fairly soon. The BIS Faust Cantata CD is right at the top of my Christmas list, as well as the Viola/Cello Concerts from Bashmet/Gutman, and a recording of Choir Concerto/Requiem. :)
Excellent, Daniel. As you can see, I'm in a huge Britten phase. :)
BTW, Daniel, I thought you were going to get the symphonies box set on BIS? Where does this factor in on your list?
A Schnittke work I want to hear is his opera Life With An Idiot. Has anyone heard this?
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on December 07, 2013, 08:17:39 AM
I have the Rostropovich recording:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51g1mI%2BxzhL._SX450_.jpg)
Long time since I played it though, can remember almost nothing about it. :-[ (Maybe give it a spin over the weekend... 8) )
Sounds good, Soapy. Would love to hear your impressions of the music.
Looks like Daniel has gone by the wayside. Anyway, in the meantime, here's something that will get us all into the holiday spirit ;) ;D
http://www.youtube.com/v/ZGUed4Ki8xM
Listening to a number of my favourite Schnittke moments currently, and revisiting the entire Faust Cantata. Discovering Schnittke has definitely been one of the highlights of my listening in 2013, such an incredible composer who wasn't afraid to do anything in his works. What a genius and great man.
I look forward to listening to more of his music in the next year, I still have Peer Gynt to listen to for example! :D
Well, I have yet to listen to the Faust Cantata . . . .
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 31, 2013, 06:03:34 AM
Listening to a number of my favourite Schnittke moments currently, and revisiting the entire Faust Cantata. Discovering Schnittke has definitely been one of the highlights of my listening in 2013, such an incredible composer who wasn't afraid to do anything in his works. What a genius and great man.
I look forward to listening to more of his music in the next year, I still have Peer Gynt to listen to for example! :D
Agreed, Daniel, a genius and a great man. I'm surprised you didn't opt for the cello concerti set on Chandos with Alexander Ivashkin. This is prime Schnittke.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 31, 2013, 06:38:03 AM
Agreed, Daniel, a genius and a great man. I'm surprised you didn't opt for the cello concerti set on Chandos with Alexander Ivashkin. This is prime Schnittke.
I will do when I have a bit more money, John!! I want to have as much Schnittke in my collection as possible. :)
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 31, 2013, 07:28:34 AM
I will do when I have a bit more money, John!! I want to have as much Schnittke in my collection as possible. :)
I understand completely. Happy New Year! Cheers!
My first listens to both of these (checked out from my local library). Really enjoyed these, particularly amazed by the magnificent Violin Concerti! :)
[asin]B00004Z44N[/asin]
[asin]B000000AWN[/asin]
Great, Ray! Personally, I didn't find much meat in the VCs, but I love Symphony No. 8 and Concerto Grosso No. 6, especially that Rozhdestvensky recording. Killer performances.
Alexander Ivashkin, one of Schnittke's major advocates (performer of cello works, author of the Phaidon biography) has died (http://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/Article/371143,alexander-ivashkin-has-died.aspx).
Quote from: CRCulver on February 02, 2014, 01:52:55 AM
Alexander Ivashkin, one of Schnittke's major advocates (performer of cello works, author of the Phaidon biography) has died (http://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/Article/371143,alexander-ivashkin-has-died.aspx).
This is sad news indeed. I loved his playing now for several years, but I'm still getting into him. His performances of Schnittke's
Cello Concerti 1 & 2 are out-of-this-world. A great loss. RIP Mr. Ivashkin.
About the 4th Symphony:
http://www.youtube.com/v/GlZrJqPrdNQ
It was a harder nut to crack compared to Symphony No.3, though absolutely a evocative, suggestive and mesmerizing work. I loved the powerful, thrilling climaxes, the dense orchestral texture and how percussion and keyboard instruments were handled (such a great ability Schnittke had, in my opinion); Gregorian chant, Orthodox hymn and Protestant chorale are beautifully juxtaposed and combined. The atmosphere created seems to drive into two different ways: the first, deeper, more haunting, mysterious and anguished as it is diving into the human unconscious to look for a long-awaited truth; while the second one, when the vocal parts start, very high, mystical and ethereal, especially in gorgeous Ave Maria. I also loved the finale, with the voices peacefully fading after reaching the climax, and the bells and percussion ostinato; what a cunning surprise when, after some moments of soft blows of percussion, piano and strings come out again! :)
Great description, Ilaria. Yeah, the 4th is a great work. Completely mesmerizing.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 02, 2014, 03:18:25 PM
I also loved the finale, with the voices peacefully fading after reaching the climax, and the bells and percussion ostinato; what a cunning surprise when, after some moments of soft blows of percussion, piano and strings come out again! :)
Love this bit! Schnittke's work can be so unexpected as he was not afraid to include anything in his works, and moments like this just work so well in emphasising the haunting realism of his work. What a genius.
Quote from: CRCulver on February 02, 2014, 01:52:55 AM
Alexander Ivashkin, one of Schnittke's major advocates (performer of cello works, author of the Phaidon biography) has died (http://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/Article/371143,alexander-ivashkin-has-died.aspx).
only 65 :(
Quote from: madaboutmahler on February 03, 2014, 03:09:18 AM
Love this bit! Schnittke's work can be so unexpected as he was not afraid to include anything in his works, and moments like this just work so well in emphasising the haunting realism of his work. What a genius.
Absolutely, his works never stop surprising you, they're incredible. Yes, such a brilliant idea he used for that finale; it's like in Tchaikovsky's
Pathetique, you would expect the
Allegro molto vivace, with its beauty and overwhelming energy, to be the conclusion of the symphony, instead it ends with an
Adagio.
I wonder if Schnittke took Mahler's words literally: "A symphony must be like the world; it must contain everything". ;)
About two weeks ago I had the great pleasure of hearing the U.S. premiere of Schnittke's 8th Symphony - what a wondrous, disturbing creation it is. And conductor Anne Manson and the Juilliard Orchestra did a terrific job.
http://seenandheard-international.com/2014/02/twenty-years-later-schnittke-u-s-premiere/
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on February 13, 2014, 08:33:29 AM
About two weeks ago I had the great pleasure of hearing the U.S. premiere of Schnittke's 8th Symphony - what a wondrous, disturbing creation it is. And conductor Anne Manson and the Juilliard Orchestra did a terrific job.
http://seenandheard-international.com/2014/02/twenty-years-later-schnittke-u-s-premiere/
--Bruce
Wow, I didn't know that Schnittke's 8th hadn't been premiered yet in the US. :o I bet that was an incredible aural experience. It is, indeed. a disturbing work filled with much pain and grief.
What an exciting conductor Anne Manson is, by the way. Adventurous choices in repertoire, great track record with living composers, and her Glass album from last year is one of my 2-3 favorite Glass CDs. She's made the Manitoba Chamber Orchestra into an exciting ensemble by association, too.
BTW, Bruce, do you think there's a chance this performance was recorded?
Quote from: Brian on February 13, 2014, 09:39:39 AM
What an exciting conductor Anne Manson is, by the way. Adventurous choices in repertoire, great track record with living composers, and her Glass album from last year is one of my 2-3 favorite Glass CDs. She's made the Manitoba Chamber Orchestra into an exciting ensemble by association, too.
Yes, totally agree. She did
Janáček's
The Cunning Little Vixen last year at Juilliard - one of the best things I saw all year. She needs wider exposure.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 09:40:52 AM
BTW, Bruce, do you think there's a chance this performance was recorded?
I suspect an in-house recording might have been made - maybe I'll ask around. PS, the performance wasn't perfect: the orchestra was struggling in parts, especially the extremely difficult French horn lines at the very beginning, and elsewhere you could tell that maybe 1 or 2 more rehearsals might have been welcome. But no matter, the piece's emotional impact came across very strongly. It's quite something. When the glow of the performance has worn off, I need to re-listen to the recording I have (Rozhdestvensky).
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on February 13, 2014, 10:07:23 AMI suspect an in-house recording might have been made - maybe I'll ask around. PS, the performance wasn't perfect: the orchestra was struggling in parts, especially the extremely difficult French horn lines at the very beginning, and elsewhere you could tell that maybe 1 or 2 more rehearsals might have been welcome. But no matter, the piece's emotional impact came across very strongly. It's quite something. When the glow of the performance has worn off, I need to re-listen to the recording I have (Rozhdestvensky).
--Bruce
Yeah, I can imagine this symphony being incredible difficult to perform well. But I have a recording of the Juilliard Orchestra performing some Sessions and William Schuman and it's quite fine. A very good sounding ensemble. BTW, that Rozhdestvensky recording is something else. The 8th is paired with an equally great performance of
Concerto Grosso No. 6.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2014, 09:37:42 AM
Wow, I didn't know that Schnittke's 8th hadn't been premiered yet in the US.
It would have been a tough sell in the immediate aftermath of the US premiere of the 6th, which saw a large part of the crowd walking out.
Quote from: CRCulver on February 13, 2014, 11:13:18 AM
It would have been a tough sell in the immediate aftermath of the US premiere of the 6th, which saw a large part of the crowd walking out.
And that just shows people have no clue as to who Schnittke actually is and what kind of music he composed. The 6th isn't an immediate appealing work IMHO, but I find it still to be an interesting listen for the most part.
I am wondering whether I can handle some more Schnittke in my life. I've been through the ringer with Schnittke- bought and sold and bought and sold- so, I'm not looking for encouragement here: dissuade me, please! Here's my layout. I have:
1) both Cello Concertos (Gutman and Slava)
2) String Quartets (to my satisfaction- though I'd like to find a good No.1)
3) Cello Sonata (No.1) (never a piece I liked, but now I have more recordings than I care for) plus other Cello Music
4) Symphonies 6-7 (in the much maligned BIS rendition- I can hear better ensemble)
5) Chailly/Decca- used to have this- should I get it again???
6) Concerto Grosso No.1 (Kremer/DG)- not really a favourite of mine (how many of these can I actually enjoy?)
I was looking at Symphonies 1-4.
No.1 has the reputation- I've never listened to it- everyone says BIS here. This is the one Symphony I'd really be willing to try. Would I like this circus?
No.2 does not sound like something I want to hear.
No.3 IS THE QUANDRY- some say it's the Masterpiece, some say it's just another 50 minutes of dark Schnittke that I might only listen to a couple of times and then grow weary of. I mean, the way the went on about those dreary 'Adagios' I just remembered what I don't need in Schnittke, which is a 16 minute slow movement. However, I'd like your opinion- your CURRENT opinion- maybe you ARE weary of this- or not- help!!
No.4- I certainly don't want to hear the BIS 1 Track, and there is no Chandos?- or?- anyhow, does snyprrr really want to hear a singing Schnittke Symphony?
No.5- again, do I really need to hear that Chailly again- I'm just over Schnittke's baroque stuff from the '80s. (I just feel- guilty?- that I'm not craving to BUY Schnittke- what is wrong with me???)
Nos. 6-7: I really don't want to have to buy two more cds just to hear these pieces in better performances- I mean, do I HAVE to? Probably, huh?...
No.8: I'm just not all that interested in REFINED Schnittke. Who gets into Schnittke because of the refined bits???
So, now that I got that out of the way, my strategy was to get the Violin Concertos (Kremer?) and maybe something else,... Viola Concerto?,... 2Piano?,... Penderecki?,...
HELP!
Yes on the viola concerto, it is awesome!
Get one of the Choir Concerto recordings that has Minnesang too. Great choral works.
My favorite Schnittke:
Viola Concerto
Symphonies Nos. 3-5, 8
Faust Cantata
Requiem
Cello Concertos 1 & 2
Hymns for chamber ensemble
Concerto for Piano and Strings
String Quartets 2 & 3
Piano Quintet
Choir Concerto (absolutely mesmerizing work)
All of the Concerti Grossi
Any of the film music as Schnittke was a master of this genre
The concerto for piano and strings manages an even darker take on Beethoven's op27 no 2 than Shostakovich's Viola Sonata
and the Requiem is a great earlier choral work - darker and not as refined as the Choir Concerto
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-Ct71PZGL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 15, 2014, 06:19:20 PM
My favorite Schnittke:
Viola Concerto
Symphonies Nos. 3-5, 8
Faust Cantata
Requiem
Cello Concertos 1 & 2
Hymns for chamber ensemble
Concerto for Piano and Strings
String Quartets 2 & 3
Piano Quintet
Choir Concerto (absolutely mesmerizing work)
All of the Concerti Grossi
Any of the film music as Schnittke was a master of this genre
Well, I did a massive Schnittke-a-thon last night to get some bearings:
Symphony No.3: did NOT like it- many out-of-control outburst- lots of amorphous slow buildup- uh- too many demands
Symphony No.4: wow, so THIS is the one I really liked! But- it's One Track City- nevermind- this is THE ONE for me! mystery...
Concerto No.1 for Violin:
Concerto No.2 for Violin and Chamber Orch.: NOT to be confused with...
Sonata for Violin and Chamber Orch.: NOT to be confused with
'Quasi un sonata' for Violin and Chamber Orch.:..............................................the last one I'm familiar with; all three confuse my chronology!
Concerto No.3 for Violin: this is the NOISY one
Concerto No.4 for Violin: this is the VC that starts out with bells (aka "The '80s Concerto")
Concerto Grosso No.1: Kremer/DG
Concerto Grosso No.2.....................................who do we like here? Chandos looks the best deal...
Concerto Grosso No.3: Chailly/Decca
Concerto Grosso No.4/Symphony No.5: Chailly/Decca................. the two "Chailly" ones are the most blataently 'baroque' hallucination...
Concerto Grosso No.5: Kremer/DG
Concerto Grosso No.6: the bitter, Late one
Can't make heads or tails of the CG yet. Explain please!
There is a very fine rendition of the 3rd SQ from the Pacifica
(http://cedillerecords.org/music/images/145.jpg)
When it comes to the early '80s, I just can't keep Schnittke and Penderecki separated in my head. They both have such a distinctly oppressive atmosphere of seething darkness (Halffter, too, to a lesser degree) and they just seem to love to (make us) wallow in it. I feel like I'm wading bog!
Violin Concertos 1-4 (Kremer/Teldec)
Looks like I picked this one up. It just seemed like the best place to go. That just leaves a whole lot of the Concerto Grosso mess to mull over- I mean, there's a lot of dreary angst in a lot of them- oh, why do I feel so obligated to explore Schnittke?? I had much BIS in the '90s that I let go, and now I'm making a new commitment? aye
I had the two Krysa disc of VCs back then... we'll see...
Your favourite Concerto Grosso???
Well, sooomeone got that BIS Symphony No.1 for $5- good for you! I would certainly have gotten it, and I knew it wouldn't last the night, ah well. What are all your deep thoughts about the Segerstam 1?
So, for all my frothing, I ended up getting Kremer's 'Violin Concertos 1-4' (Teldec) and the Postnikova Piano Concerto on Erato (the only recording I think I can handle of this most loathsome piece- at least we'll see how this performance turns that opinion around). I figured I'd hold off on the Symphonies (was thinking of 1 or 4) and the Concerto Grosso 1-6 until such time. Hopefully these concerti will slake the thirst.
Violin Concerto No.1 (1957/rev. 1963 (not the same as First Violin Sonata))
I was slightly charmed by Schnittke's "Op.1", which he then later revised, the results of which I heard from Kremer's set. It almost reminds me of pre-historic Petttersson or Sessions, skeletal and gothic, Poe-inspired (not, but it has a wan, pale, overcast tinge, perhaps?). I think it offers up interesting food-for-thought in hearing fleeting snippets of Shostakovich and mid-century writing in general. To me it sounds like either 1927 or 1937, mm?
Violin Concerto No.2 (1966) "Canticum canticorum"
This is a Passion Play in the form of a VC. It, too, should not be confused with either the 'Sonata for Violin and Chamber Orchestra', or the Second Violin Sonata 'Quasi una Fantasia'. The former is a reworking of VS1, and the VS2 had its ochestration completed in the late '80s. There!
I found this piece quite enjoyable, with lots of "characters", including a double bass as Judas ("anti-solist"). It's is a single movement yet goes through a variety of scenarios. It may seem a bit modest, but I think it's a little more out there than it at first lets on (and I just say that to counter the, "VC 3-4 are more interesting than 1-2" argument).
Violin Concerto No.3
This is the one with mostly winds. This might be the gnarliest one, but the intesity is totally satisfying. Not much to say about this one really.
Violin Concerto No.4
This is the Biggy! It starts with bells and goes everywhere from there. On the Kremer/Teldec version there is some heavy breathing edited in where the "cadenza visuale" takes place, an effect I'm not quite sure about, but I can live with it- what do you think about this? Other than that, I find it an cracker of a concerto, just long enough, and packed very densely with incident.
Sonata for Violin and Chamber Orchestra
'Quasi una sonata'
1) Chandos never recorded Symph0nies 3 or 5, or the Concerto Grosso No.3??
2) Melodiya only recorded the first four Symphonies
3) Daniel Hope substitutes a piano for the harpsichord half way through his 'Sonata for Vln. & Ch. Orch.'
4) Only Kremer/DG recorded Concerto Grosso No.5
5)
Quote from: snyprrr on April 22, 2014, 07:15:10 AM
4) Only Kremer/DG recorded Concerto Grosso No.5
[asin]B000FIKVY2[/asin]
Quote from: karlhenning on April 22, 2014, 08:37:19 AM
[asin]B000FIKVY2[/asin]
That's a mis-print. Look inside, it's No.6!
Thanks . . . I think ;)
Quote from: karlhenning on April 22, 2014, 10:32:55 AM
Thanks . . . I think ;)
It's... ok,.. Karl,... I'm here for you! :-* 0:)
I'm trying to work my way out of this Schnittke madness, but I've caught myself in the Concerto Grosso quagmire. :( Which do you prefer? I was listening to Kremer's No.1, and, it's quite a piece of confrontational music. I just don't know how often I want to hear so much... well, I wouldn't call it "bitterness" (not YET in Schnittke- that comes later)m but his intensity I find... eh, I don't know- it's almost 30minutes- he really puts it to ya- making you go through this pain. But, it had its "beautiful" moments. Still, hard to "love".
The first five CGs are all pretty long (obviously, the two on the Chailly are going to be just a smidge more consumer friendly)... ooooo... it's been a long week in "trying to LIKE Schnittke-land". I have to be in the right mood for Schnittke, it seems.
Still, it looks as though the Cello Concerto 2 is the Big Daddy of them all, and THAT I can listen to for pleasure!
Schnittke... making it hard on m ::)e....
See? I've got myself painted into a Martinu/Schnittke corner here. How DO I get out?????
It was about 1992. I had just drank a pot of espresso, my complexion was turning green, and I was in TowerRecords- standing there for an hour- trying to decide between the expensive BIS Schnittke and the cheap LvB Kovechavich.
20 years later...
It was about 1992. I had just drunk a pot of espresso, my complexion was turning green, and I was in Tower Records . . .
There is the beginning of literary greatness kerneled here . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on April 24, 2014, 09:00:32 AM
It was about 1992. I had just drunk a pot of espresso, my complexion was turning green, and I was in Tower Records . . .
There is the beginning of literary greatness kerneled here . . . .
When will we get to read the
snypps novella?
Quote from: North Star on April 24, 2014, 09:14:35 AM
When will we get to read the snypps novella?
Please :laugh:- I need an agent- a plot-
lesbian vampires? or "guy goes mad listening to music"?
seriously I need to make some career choices here
I know! I'm become a Martinu Scholar!
...er ::)
Quote from: snyprrr on April 24, 2014, 12:01:22 PM
Please :laugh:- I need an agent- a plot-
lesbian vampires? or "guy goes mad listening to music"?
seriously I need to make some career choices here
I know! I'm become a Martinu Scholar!
...er ::)
Or perhaps a collage of those ideas, à la
Scnittke: a
Martinů scholar goes mad while observing the activities of lesbian vampires? That would be a hit, I'm sure :D
Quote from: North Star on April 24, 2014, 12:10:28 PM
Or perhaps a collage of those ideas, à la Scnittke: a Martinů scholar goes mad while observing the activities of lesbian vampires? That would be a hit, I'm sure :D
A Musical Novel!... with a happy ending! :-* :laugh:
On a more serious, CDCDCD Schnittke-A-Thon note, I'm seriously thinking about doing some damage. Questions:
1) How do the Lubotsky (SONY) and Kremer (DG) 'Quasi una Sonata' compare?
2) How do we really really feel about the Chailly recording this morning? Do you pull it out often? MUST I get it ... again? (I don't know what happened (this was way back when))
3) How essential are those two SONY discs of Chamber Music with Lubotsky? (NO! I don't know why I'm asking these silly questions!)
I just don't see myself entertaining Schnittke that often, so why do I feel compelled to sacrifice for him? Ugh
I'm having a Martinu/Schnittke DeathMatch here! Oh, the bloodshed (in the wallet!) The horror! No one (dollar) was spared
Quote from: snyprrr on April 24, 2014, 12:30:59 PM
2) How do we really really feel about the Chailly recording this morning? Do you pull it out often? MUST I get it ... again? (I don't know what happened (this was way back when))
Oh, you
would ask, the day I am packed light for travel . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on April 25, 2014, 05:42:01 AM
Oh, you would ask, the day I am packed light for travel . . . .
Take it $:)
Concerto Grosso No.5
I remember when this came out, with the most cringe-inducing disc mate of Glass's Violin Concerto (it must have been the time). It seems no one understood this piece, and I had dismissed it as being another Schnittke Baroque-on-Acid.
But in my current trolling I dredged it up, and lo!, the Violin Concerto No.5 was revealed! This work belongs with the Piano Four Hands and 2nd Cello Concertos, a work freed of all "polystylism" and is simply an Avant Garde Abstract Work of Art. It certainly is rough and ready to do business, slicing and dicing and slashing and burning its way through 28 minutes of what might be called a most Rihm-like concerto. At least I was thinking that this made a great foil foil for the Mutter disc as a comparison not only of the Rihm but of the Berg as well.
I was so pleased when I read that it was a Totally Abstract work, and I think it quite delivers one of Schnittke's most pulverizing-ly bitter/angry works. I'm quite amused that so many 'Extreme Listeners' don't get this piece- I think it's pretty plainly much like Schoenberg's String Trio, just a pure expression of... what?... rage?
The recording seems to absorb much of the shock impact of the music, making for a very enjoyable listen. The Berliners sound silky smooth, which is a real treat in such acerbic music. This is the height of Abstract Schnittke.
Quote from: snyprrr on April 24, 2014, 12:30:59 PM
2) How do we really really feel about the Chailly recording this morning? Do you pull it out often? MUST I get it ... again? (I don't know what happened (this was way back when))
I'd say it's a keeper. Great performances of both pieces. While I do sometimes feel that the 5th symphony is something of a pendant to
Peer Gynt and doesn't add very much to that work, it does share much of the same preoccupations at a much more digestible length.
Quote from: edward on April 25, 2014, 12:01:57 PM
I'd say it's a keeper. Great performances of both pieces. While I do sometimes feel that the 5th symphony is something of a pendant to Peer Gynt and doesn't add very much to that work, it does share much of the same preoccupations at a much more digestible length.
(that edward, he's pretty persuasive, eh?)
I did used to have, along with the BIS counterparts (because Penguin Guide TOLD me to!), - and I don't know exactly why I parted ways, but, as I've been sampling both works on YT, I keep feeling bothered by the actual music- both intros being very much alike, and the prejudice in my head that I'm going to be taken for a (charlatan) ride. I guess it's just the Bach thing,... I know there's more abstract music in both pieces than just what the outer movements provide,... perhaps it's that one still has to pay full price- even for a Used copy!?!
I mean, ... I mean...
It might be a foregone conclusion that we'll meet again. I just feel like I had a discovery of the CG 5, a very abstract piece, and I'm feeling very distant towards Schnittke polystylism works, of which these two are the most famous.
Do you all want to take bets on how long I hold out? :laugh:
I feel like I've been buying a lot of 'mandatory' stuff lately- like some whip cracking school marm in my head says, You MUST get this, you can't get want you want, you have to get what The Library needs. Well,... we ARE reaching the end of Discovery Season, thankfully!
Symphony No.6 (1992)
We have Otaka (BIS) and Polyansky (Chandos) before us. The moment is at hand. Otaka, the only game in town for a long while, has for years weathered outrageous condemnation from most quarters,- roundly dismissed is more like it- and yet, the temptation to simply gathered up Symphonies 6 & 7 in one place must be too great for some! ;)
I'm into the second movement of the Otaka. I surely wonder how Polyansky is going to add four minutes to that First Movement, but I'm going to switch over after the Presto. Otherwise, in a liberal mood I have a hard time pinning down what the heresies are. The Second Movement is equal time for both.
From the outset, am I hearing Polyansky quicker than Otaka? Surely it can't be. Well, but the Chandos sound is certainly up to par, giving quite a different feel from the 'Pettersson Black' BIS recording (which, frankly, I love, lending that extra depressing quality which seems a bit lost in the lavish, opulent Chandos). Do I hear the burbling brass come off a bit clearer (better?) in the Chandos? I'll give Polyansky the nod in milking this music superbly, but someone is going to have to give me some timings on the Otaka if you want me to hear some specific instances of the crimes he's accused of. I actually like the 'Quote' bit (is it 'Peter & the Wolf'?) better in the Otaka. The strings immediately following are rendered, of course, much smoother in the Chandos (again, the BIS has that typical (wonderful) 'Petterrson Black' recording style which gives the piece a large Gothic Setting to unfold, whereas the Chandos just sounds like a perfect recording in the classic Chandos lushness). Frankly, though I like the winning brass in the Chandos, the open BIS recording, as always, allows the brass quite a spectacular presence. Again, someone point out Otaka's fault here.
For those who DON'T like Schnittke, I might have to recommend 6 over 8,... 6 AND 7 over 8, perhaps,... well, all three form a unit, there are all the final distillations of Schnittke's Late Style. No.6 totally breaks with old Schnittke to lay on the Bruckner (in 7 mostly) in a much more Classical, coherent style that any lover of mid-century Symphonies would eat up. It has the pencil-sketch sparseness of Late Shostakovich with less obvious melodic material. The First Movement seems to function as a ruminating restlessness, mulling things over and over in the dark language of aforementioned mentor. It seems the most abstract, cryptic, and gnomic utterance of Shostakovich's 'motto' theme- odd noodling that becomes its own Morse Code.
Polyansky's Second Movement, is, well, quite superior to Otaka, but, in his haphazard way, Otaka lends an air of zanyness that is curtailed in the Chandos (through virtuosity!). Still I like both.
I'm going to stop here for now for some comments by you. Surely you are well aware of this controversy and would like to weigh in? Chandos makes it sound like DSCH's 14 1/2, and BIS makes it sound like Pettersson's 3 1/2- what's the problem?
Most interesting review, thanks! I'll have to revisit before I might reply . . . and this week looks like some Vaughan Williams re-immersion for me . . . .
Quote from: snyprrr on May 04, 2014, 06:21:52 PM
Symphony No.6 (1992)
We have Otaka (BIS) and Polyansky (Chandos) before us. The moment is at hand. Otaka, the only game in town for a long while, has for years weathered outrageous condemnation from most quarters,- roundly dismissed is more like it- and yet, the temptation to simply gathered up Symphonies 6 & 7 in one place must be too great for some! ;)
I'm into the second movement of the Otaka. I surely wonder how Polyansky is going to add four minutes to that First Movement, but I'm going to switch over after the Presto. Otherwise, in a liberal mood I have a hard time pinning down what the heresies are. The Second Movement is equal time for both.
From the outset, am I hearing Polyansky quicker than Otaka? Surely it can't be. Well, but the Chandos sound is certainly up to par, giving quite a different feel from the 'Pettersson Black' BIS recording (which, frankly, I love, lending that extra depressing quality which seems a bit lost in the lavish, opulent Chandos). Do I hear the burbling brass come off a bit clearer (better?) in the Chandos? I'll give Polyansky the nod in milking this music superbly, but someone is going to have to give me some timings on the Otaka if you want me to hear some specific instances of the crimes he's accused of. I actually like the 'Quote' bit (is it 'Peter & the Wolf'?) better in the Otaka. The strings immediately following are rendered, of course, much smoother in the Chandos (again, the BIS has that typical (wonderful) 'Petterrson Black' recording style which gives the piece a large Gothic Setting to unfold, whereas the Chandos just sounds like a perfect recording in the classic Chandos lushness). Frankly, though I like the winning brass in the Chandos, the open BIS recording, as always, allows the brass quite a spectacular presence. Again, someone point out Otaka's fault here.
For those who DON'T like Schnittke, I might have to recommend 6 over 8,... 6 AND 7 over 8, perhaps,... well, all three form a unit, there are all the final distillations of Schnittke's Late Style. No.6 totally breaks with old Schnittke to lay on the Bruckner (in 7 mostly) in a much more Classical, coherent style that any lover of mid-century Symphonies would eat up. It has the pencil-sketch sparseness of Late Shostakovich with less obvious melodic material. The First Movement seems to function as a ruminating restlessness, mulling things over and over in the dark language of aforementioned mentor. It seems the most abstract, cryptic, and gnomic utterance of Shostakovich's 'motto' theme- odd noodling that becomes its own Morse Code.
Polyansky's Second Movement, is, well, quite superior to Otaka, but, in his haphazard way, Otaka lends an air of zanyness that is curtailed in the Chandos (through virtuosity!). Still I like both.
I'm going to stop here for now for some comments by you. Surely you are well aware of this controversy and would like to weigh in? Chandos makes it sound like DSCH's 14 1/2, and BIS makes it sound like Pettersson's 3 1/2- what's the problem?
What an enigmatic ending, especially the Chandos. Surely this is Petterssons's 3 1/2! Like a machine that just can't get started. Very black. I like it.
The more I compared, the less willing I was to let the criticism of Otaka stand. Sure, the Chandos presents the music as perfectly as one could ask for, giving an absolute Masterpiece 'Aura' to the proceedings, but the BIS version's starker presentation lends its own particular charm. You could ask for a worse rendition than Otaka's, so, just be grateful we have a compare. I will probably continue to listen to both.
As far as the 7th goes, I've heard that Otaka is better here, so I have been less inclined to compare. Anyone?
Thanks for the analysis, but I could never warm up to the 6th. Too much like a body with all the guts scooped out, only skin & bones remaining.
Quote from: Velimir on May 06, 2014, 10:37:29 AM
Thanks for the analysis, but I could never warm up to the 6th. Too much like a body with all the guts scooped out, only skin & bones remaining.
Are you necrophilia shaming me? ???
I think that's what I like about it,... yes, very corpse like. Obviously your morphine drip has a kink in it, here let me hellllll(CRASH!!)
Haha, it's like kids poking a corpse with a stick! And I love it! That's my review. Pay me now!
Cello Concerto (No.1)
I have always had Gutman/Masur (EMI) and yet I hear Ivashkin is the way to go these days. I pulled it out as part of my Schnittke-thon- I seem to forget this music, maybe because that one single "wrong chord" that comes around obliterates all else in my mind. As a matter of fact, it seems not like 'polystylist' Schnittke, but like one of the first works of the 'Enigmatic/Abstract' Late Music. It certainly is MASSSIVE in its use of 'climax' and broadness and comes across very much like a giant gothic cathedral with monster legs a la Pink Floyd on acid. Again, it almost sounds like Pettersson's CC, such is the angst on display!
It reminds me a little of the creepy feel of the Piano Concerto, but is less overt in any of Schnittke's quote-ology mannerism. Here we simply sense the drama we are participating in- like if 'Night of the Living Dead' had been produced in the '30s? Schnittke was certainly a CinemaGraphic Composer.
At 40 minutes, it's like a city on fire- Godzilla destroying type of Cello Concerto, surely in line with the Penderecki and the Halffter that Slava was commissioning. He must have decided to lay down a carpet bombing of massive CCs in the mid-'80s to insure that Masterpiece status would not elude the current, baton-handed generation. So we have quite a few Great CCs during this time, all very dark and somewhat forbidding. And then we have Schnittke's No.2! It does seem like these two are the pinnacle of Schnittke's achievement- though many like the Sym 8 style better. Here, Schnittke sizzles like his life depends on it- because AllThatJazz- it does!
"This is a very important CD (http://www.eclassical.com/labels/bis/the-russian-cello-1.html) for me. Torleif Thedéen came to me, wanting to make a record, like most Scandinavian artists of the time. He, however, told me that he had something special to offer: Schnittke's Cello Sonata. Whose Cello Sonata, I asked, and he repeated: Schnittke. Never heard of, is it good?, whereupon Torleif played a cassette tape for me. I was so taken aback. What fantastic music!!! Why had I never heard of Schnittke? So I contacted Schnittke's Publisher, Sikorski in Hamburg, got a huge box with scores and sounding material and the rest is history. Of course Torleif got to record his first CD (he now has done 40 for us) and BIS was led onto the Schnittke path. A good day in BIS's and my life, indeed. Do enjoy this fantastic music." - BIS Founder and CEO Robert von Bahr
Quote from: Brian on August 25, 2014, 07:22:37 AM
"This is a very important CD (http://www.eclassical.com/labels/bis/the-russian-cello-1.html) for me. Torleif Thedéen came to me, wanting to make a record, like most Scandinavian artists of the time. He, however, told me that he had something special to offer: Schnittke's Cello Sonata. Whose Cello Sonata, I asked, and he repeated: Schnittke. Never heard of, is it good?, whereupon Torleif played a cassette tape for me. I was so taken aback. What fantastic music!!! Why had I never heard of Schnittke? So I contacted Schnittke's Publisher, Sikorski in Hamburg, got a huge box with scores and sounding material and the rest is history. Of course Torleif got to record his first CD (he now has done 40 for us) and BIS was led onto the Schnittke path. A good day in BIS's and my life, indeed. Do enjoy this fantastic music." - BIS Founder and CEO Robert von Bahr
Nice!
Quote from: Brian on August 25, 2014, 07:22:37 AM
"This is a very important CD (http://www.eclassical.com/labels/bis/the-russian-cello-1.html) for me. Torleif Thedéen came to me, wanting to make a record, like most Scandinavian artists of the time. He, however, told me that he had something special to offer: Schnittke's Cello Sonata. Whose Cello Sonata, I asked, and he repeated: Schnittke. Never heard of, is it good?, whereupon Torleif played a cassette tape for me. I was so taken aback. What fantastic music!!! Why had I never heard of Schnittke? So I contacted Schnittke's Publisher, Sikorski in Hamburg, got a huge box with scores and sounding material and the rest is history. Of course Torleif got to record his first CD (he now has done 40 for us) and BIS was led onto the Schnittke path. A good day in BIS's and my life, indeed. Do enjoy this fantastic music." - BIS Founder and CEO Robert von Bahr
I got that CD as a gift waaay back when, and it has remained with me out of respect, though, (and I haven't compared) I assume that it has been displaced many times over. It has that typical BIS sound, which hits me one way or the other depending on the humidity that day!
Still, my first Schnittke. Hated it, but was TOLD by Penguin Guide that I MUST Love It. oy vey... I still can't stand it! But, they MADE me (did they have a deal with Bahr?) have to go and get all this BIS discs, which I dutifully TRIED to love- no, you weren't going to get me to like that stuff back them. Maybe had I heard the 4th? 1st? 3rd? No, I got the Chailly and the BIS and was like, wtf? is this crap? haha!!
Ah,./.. those days...
Time to shake off some dust on this thread...
I would like to read some you guys personal stories with Schnittke's music and, depending on whether you enjoy the music, how it has shaped your outlook on other composer's music or just music in general? What was the first work that opened your ears to his sound-world?
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 07, 2014, 05:08:43 PM
What was the first work that opened your ears to his sound-world?
In Memoriam, the orchestration of the Piano Quintet. I liked it right off the bat, and was impressed by the feeling of extreme gloom and hopelessness. Like late DSCH taken one step further.
Cello Sonata (1977)... but I didn't like it. But the Penguin Guide told me I was a Dirty hater if I didn't like it, so, I was forced to buy all the BIS CDs and prove my fidelity. After that, I felt like I'd been duped.
Then Xenakis happened.
Now Schnittke sounds like comfort food for a visit by the stasi--- dead of winter gloom and death... I can "pick it up" like I did that night, but, because I'm such a... well you all know what a "such an _____" I am!!) Individualist, I've always had my own style, so I'm always going to raise an eyebrow or two--- but I certainly won't (abstract) gloom and death is what I turn to Schnittke for
Quote from: Velimir on September 08, 2014, 09:11:30 AM
In Memoriam, the orchestration of the Piano Quintet. I liked it right off the bat, and was impressed by the feeling of extreme gloom and hopelessness. Like late DSCH taken one step further.
Yes, that's a very fine work. Gloom and hopelessness are apart of the Schnittke package deal. :)
Quote from: snyprrr on September 08, 2014, 09:47:13 AM
Cello Sonata (1977)... but I didn't like it. But the Penguin Guide told me I was a Dirty hater if I didn't like it, so, I was forced to buy all the BIS CDs and prove my fidelity. After that, I felt like I'd been duped.
Then Xenakis happened.
Now Schnittke sounds like comfort food for a visit by the stasi--- dead of winter gloom and death... I can "pick it up" like I did that night, but, because I'm such a... well you all know what a "such an _____" I am!!) Individualist, I've always had my own style, so I'm always going to raise an eyebrow or two--- but I certainly won't (abstract) gloom and death is what I turn to Schnittke for
'Dead of winter gloom and death...," ha! I like this description. Some composer's music takes you to different exotic and remote places mentally speaking, but it seems that Schnittke takes a listener right down to the graveyard. I don't know who used the word macabre in this thread but I remember reading it and thought that describes Schnittke's music as well.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 08, 2014, 01:16:29 PM
'Dead of winter gloom and death...," ha! I like this description. Some composer's music takes you to different exotic and remote places mentally speaking, but it seems that Schnittke takes a listener right down to the graveyard. I don't know who used the word macabre in this thread but I remember reading it and thought that describes Schnittke's music as well.
I've got Symphony 6 waiting to be listened to after you bumped the Thread, but
a) the weather is still nice
b) can't shake DSCH at the moment
Please wait - they say this is going to be a miserable winter--- plenty of time for Schnittke then!!!
Quote from: snyprrr on September 10, 2014, 10:07:15 AM
I've got Symphony 6 waiting to be listened to after you bumped the Thread, but
a) the weather is still nice
b) can't shake DSCH at the moment
Please wait - they say this is going to be a miserable winter--- plenty of time for Schnittke then!!!
Symphony No. 6 is a strange brew. It's a very cool sounding work. I believe it's one of his most stripped-down works. I mean the music is completely exposed. There's nothing filling the space. It kind of just breezes like the wind and then this wind is followed by more silence. A symphony for a Halloween night.
This image would be perfect accompaniment for this symphony:
(http://www.digital-photography-school.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/spooky-600x450.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 07, 2014, 05:08:43 PM
Time to shake off some dust on this thread...
I would like to read some you guys personal stories with Schnittke's music and, depending on whether you enjoy the music, how it has shaped your outlook on other composer's music or just music in general? What was the first work that opened your ears to his sound-world?
My first encounter with Schnittke's music was the recording of his first symphony on BIS. I read it should be essential and also liked the fact that he had lived just a few blocks away from my apartment in Hamburg, as I got aware from a memorial table on the building he had lived in. However I was a bit disappointed with it, found it flashy and also that it's different parts did not make for a coherent whole. I still do not consider it to be among his best works. Then I tried his Concerto Grosso Nr.5 (DG-CD, together with Glass' Violin Concerto), which really clicked with me. I especially like his imaginative string writing (Cello Concertos, Viola Concerto, String Quartets), the Concerto Grossos and his sinister Faust Cantata. Alex Ross compared him to Adrian Leverkühn in Thomas Mann's Doctor Faustus. There's something to it. I read that Schnittke liked this book very much. Lately I also read it and I feel it helped me to get deeper into Schnittke's sound world.
I was surprised at how the First really grabbed me by the collar. There's a phrase I shouldn't use (and Karlo knows which . . . .)
Quote from: karlhenning on September 13, 2014, 11:50:23 AM
I was surprised at how the First really grabbed me by the collar. There's a phrase I shouldn't use (and Karlo knows which . . . .)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
That phrase might be hackneyed in this context, but the piece is certainly quite something, and it works for me anyway.
Quote from: chadfeldheimer on September 13, 2014, 09:56:10 AM
My first encounter with Schnittke's music was the recording of his first symphony on BIS. I read it should be essential and also liked the fact that he had lived just a few blocks away from my apartment in Hamburg, as I got aware from a memorial table on the building he had lived in. However I was a bit disappointed with it, found it flashy and also that it's different parts did not make for a coherent whole. I still do not consider it to be among his best works. Then I tried his Concerto Grosso Nr.5 (DG-CD, together with Glass' Violin Concerto), which really clicked with me. I especially like his imaginative string writing (Cello Concertos, Viola Concerto, String Quartets), the Concerto Grossos and his sinister Faust Cantata. Alex Ross compared him to Adrian Leverkühn in Thomas Mann's Doctor Faustus. There's something to it. I read that Schnittke liked this book very much. Lately I also read it and I feel it helped me to get deeper into Schnittke's sound world.
Thanks for sharing your Schnittke story with all of us. I, too, do not think highly of
Symphony No. 1, in fact, I think of it more of a novelty work than anything substantial, but it's certainly good fun. In that BIS recorded performance (w/ Segerstam), I especially LOVE the jazz improvisation section. Of course, this improvisation is always different, but I really loved what the musicians did with it in the Segerstam performance. I also enjoy his more string-related works with the
Cello Concertos No. 1 & 2,
Violin Concerto No. 1 (an early work I like regardless of it's originality), the SQs, and, of course, the
Viola Concerto being particular favorites. The
Requiem,
Faust Cantata, and the
Choir Concerto really opened up Schnittke's music to a different audience IMHO.
Peer Gynt is also another masterstroke in this composer's oeuvre. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it or not. We also shouldn't forget his chamber music like the
Cello Sonatas, the
Piano Quintet, etc. Of the symphonies, I like most of them, especially the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 8th. Being able to hear a reconstructed
Symphony No. 9 was also interesting. This composer could have gone in so many directions, but thankfully he had already left behind a highly satisfying catalogue of works.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 13, 2014, 07:19:45 PM
Thanks for sharing your Schnittke story with all of us. I, too, do not think highly of Symphony No. 1, in fact, I think of it more of a novelty work than anything substantial, but it's certainly good fun. In that BIS recorded performance (w/ Segerstam), I especially LOVE the jazz improvisation section. Of course, this improvisation is always different, but I really loved what the musicians did with it in the Segerstam performance.
Yes - there are certainly good sections in it and I agree it's a good fun listening. As a hole I don't feel it can compete with Schnittke's best works. BTW I think with his "Musique pour le soupers de Roi Ubu" B.A. Zimmermann followed a similar approach as Schnittke with his 1st symphony and I think he was more successful thereby.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 13, 2014, 07:19:45 PM
I also enjoy his more string-related works with the Cello Concertos No. 1 & 2, Violin Concerto No. 1 (an early work I like regardless of it's originality), the SQs, and, of course, the Viola Concerto being particular favorites. The Requiem, Faust Cantata, and the Choir Concerto really opened up Schnittke's music to a different audience IMHO.
Yes - especially parts of the Faust Cantata (Seid nüchtern und wachet) have a bit of a (if very dark) pop-feel to it. I think Schnittke was very aware of pop music. Is it reported somewhere, if he actually liked some of it? Anyway the Cantata is very well done. I could imagine Diamanda Galas would be very good interpreter.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 13, 2014, 07:19:45 PM
Peer Gynt is also another masterstroke in this composer's oeuvre. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it or not.
Not really. I was thinking about buying it and listened to some of it's parts via Youtube, which I liked quite a lot. However the high price of the CD retained me from buying it till now.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 13, 2014, 07:19:45 PM
We also shouldn't forget his chamber music like the Cello Sonatas, the Piano Quintet, etc.
I know and love the Piano Quintet.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 13, 2014, 07:19:45 PM
Of the symphonies, I like most of them, especially the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 8th. Being able to hear a reconstructed Symphony No. 9 was also interesting.
I have a recording of Rozhdestvensky conducting Schnittke's 3rd symphony which I really like. I think Rozhdestvensky is a great Schnittke interpreter. What do you think of the BIS-symphony-box?
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 13, 2014, 07:19:45 PM
This composer could have gone in so many directions, but thankfully he had already left behind a highly satisfying catalogue of works.
Absolutely
Quote from: chadfeldheimer on September 14, 2014, 12:42:15 AM
Yes - especially parts of the Faust Cantata (Seid nüchtern und wachet) have a bit of a (if very dark) pop-feel to it. I think Schnittke was very aware of pop music.
In fact, the tango in the Faust Cantata was originally intended for the Russian pop singer Alla Pugacheva.
Schnittke was certainly well aware of the Russian rock scene at the time: his son Andrei was a guitarist for the band Center, and he knew some of the band members. (See http://rbth.com/arts/2013/10/06/avant-garde_composer_through_the_eyes_of_his_contemporary_30525.html for a tribute to him by the group's founder Vasily Shumov.)
Quote from: edward on September 14, 2014, 06:00:33 AM
In fact, the tango in the Faust Cantata was originally intended for the Russian pop singer Alla Pugacheva.
Schnittke was certainly well aware of the Russian rock scene at the time: his son Andrei was a guitarist for the band Center, and he knew some of the band members. (See http://rbth.com/arts/2013/10/06/avant-garde_composer_through_the_eyes_of_his_contemporary_30525.html for a tribute to him by the group's founder Vasily Shumov.)
Thank's for link and info. That would also explain the use of electric guitars in some of his works.
Quote from: chadfeldheimer on September 14, 2014, 12:42:15 AM
Yes - there are certainly good sections in it and I agree it's a good fun listening. As a hole I don't feel it can compete with Schnittke's best works. BTW I think with his "Musique pour le soupers de Roi Ubu" B.A. Zimmermann followed a similar approach as Schnittke with his 1st symphony and I think he was more successful thereby. Yes - especially parts of the Faust Cantata (Seid nüchtern und wachet) have a bit of a (if very dark) pop-feel to it. I think Schnittke was very aware of pop music. Is it reported somewhere, if he actually liked some of it? Anyway the Cantata is very well done. I could imagine Diamanda Galas would be very good interpreter.Not really. I was thinking about buying it and listened to some of it's parts via Youtube, which I liked quite a lot. However the high price of the CD retained me from buying it till now.I know and love the Piano Quintet. I have a recording of Rozhdestvensky conducting Schnittke's 3rd symphony which I really like. I think Rozhdestvensky is a great Schnittke interpreter. What do you think of the BIS-symphony-box?Absolutely
Let's see if I can try to respond to a lot of what you wrote. I think the BIS symphony box set is uneven performance-wise. I thought the performances of
Symphonies 6, 7, 8, & 9 weren't up to par with other performances I've heard. Yes, Rozhdestvensky is a fine Schnittke conductor. I own several of his recordings. My favorite performance of his Schnittke is
Symphony No. 8 on Chandos. What a monumental performance IMHO. The recording of
Peer Gynt is quite expensive. I agree with you there. It was even expensive when I bought it several years ago. The other ballets:
Labyrinths and
Sketches are also worth checking out if you haven't done so already.
Faust Cantata has several good performances on record but my favorite is the BIS recording with James DePreist. Another work, that's not well known, that you should check out at some point is
Four Hymns which is scored for a chamber ensemble of bassoon, cello, double bass, piano, harp, harpsichord, timpani, and tubular bells. Very cool work.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 07, 2014, 05:08:43 PM
What was the first work that opened your ears to his sound-world?
The
Concerto for piano and strings, a work I enjoyed very much. I was deeply struck by its hauntingly beautiful, mesmerizing atmospheres, the brilliant orchestration, especially how Schnittke handled the strings (and in the symphonies, percussion); the combination and transformation of different harmonic styles were very impressive, with moments of striking, dissonant music getting so lyrical and majestic at some points. I also loved the changes of dynamics and intensity, and how the melodies became more and more powerful, burst out into thrilling climaxes before suddenly shading into pianissimi. A wonderful musical experience.
I don't know why, but when I listen to Schnittke's music, it makes me think irresistibly of Kandinsky's abstract art.....
Quote from: chadfeldheimer on September 14, 2014, 12:42:15 AMYes - especially parts of the Faust Cantata (Seid nüchtern und wachet) have a bit of a (if very dark) pop-feel to it. I think Schnittke was very aware of pop music.
The example that immediately came to mind for me was the Choir Concerto, which I actually listen to more than almost anything else by Schnittke.
(Sorry for my absence from the contemporary music threads. These last few months I've been listening to little other than Beethoven, Hummel, Reicha, Weber, Mendelssohn, Onslow, Schubert and so forth. I promise I'll come back to the 21st century soon, after I've done some further exploration of Moscheles and Clementi and Spohr and...)
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 15, 2014, 02:00:20 AM
The Concerto for piano and strings, a work I enjoyed very much. I was deeply struck by its hauntingly beautiful, mesmerizing atmospheres, the brilliant orchestration, especially how Schnittke handled the strings (and in the symphonies, percussion); the combination and transformation of different harmonic styles were very impressive, with moments of striking, dissonant music getting so lyrical and majestic at some points. I also loved the changes of dynamics and intensity, and how the melodies became more and more powerful, burst out into thrilling climaxes before suddenly shading into pianissimi. A wonderful musical experience.
I don't know why, but when I listen to Schnittke's music, it makes me think irresistibly of Kandinsky's abstract art.....
Great post, Ilaria. Thanks for sharing. I'm glad to hear that Schnittke's music has had an effect on you. On a personal note, I'm trying to remember the work that 'opened my ears' to Schnittke. It's hard to remember but I think it was
Ritual (from the BIS recording with my favorite
Faust performance). I loved the way this work just continued to build in searing intensity until finally that tension was released. Such a great work.
That Concerto for piano & strings is a beauty!
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 14, 2014, 07:31:46 AM
Let's see if I can try to respond to a lot of what you wrote. I think the BIS symphony box set is uneven performance-wise. I thought the performances of Symphonies 6, 7, 8, & 9 weren't up to par with other performances I've heard. Yes, Rozhdestvensky is a fine Schnittke conductor. I own several of his recordings. My favorite performance of his Schnittke is Symphony No. 8 on Chandos. What a monumental performance IMHO. The recording of Peer Gynt is quite expensive. I agree with you there. It was even expensive when I bought it several years ago. The other ballets: Labyrinths and Sketches are also worth checking out if you haven't done so already. Faust Cantata has several good performances on record but my favorite is the BIS recording with James DePreist. Another work, that's not well known, that you should check out at some point is Four Hymns which is scored for a chamber ensemble of bassoon, cello, double bass, piano, harp, harpsichord, timpani, and tubular bells. Very cool work.
Thanks for the recommendations.
Do you know these works, Chad? If not, I definitely recommend them (and the album, but then again, I don't know the other recordings)
[asin]B000092R5A[/asin]
Quote from: chadfeldheimer on September 15, 2014, 09:37:10 AM
Thanks for the recommendations.
Yeah, definitely check them out.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 15, 2014, 08:06:02 AM
That Concerto for piano & strings is a beauty!
Quite right!
Quote from: amw on September 15, 2014, 02:40:40 AM
Quote from: chadfeldheimer on September 14, 2014, 12:42:15 AMYes - especially parts of the Faust Cantata (Seid nüchtern und wachet) have a bit of a (if very dark) pop-feel to it. I think Schnittke was very aware of pop music.
The example that immediately came to mind for me was the Choir Concerto, which I actually listen to more than almost anything else by Schnittke.
I don't think I've heard the Faust Cantata, I know the Choir Concerto, but don't really recognize a pop element. Could you elaborate? I'm curious what you mean.
I think it would mostly be the harmonies (which are very jazz/modal-rock inflected), and some sections that imply a "beat".
It's obviously a borderline case, and I think only the reputations of the respective musicians explain why the Choir Concerto ends up in the classical bins whereas, e.g., Brian Eno's Discreet Music ends up in the alt-rock/ambient ones. But in my experience that piece has been much more accessible to non-classical fans than say Beethoven.
(Schnittke's later works do seem to be somewhat influenced by the younger generation, Pärt, Artyomov, Gorecki and so forth, who are basically "pop" already)
OK, thanks for the explanation. I don't know much Eno, don't think I've heard Discreet music (I'll give it a try), but I wouldn't call Part or Gorecki pop (I don't know Artyomov's music well enough). So I guess we are simply calling different things pop - which explains why I don't see it there (I'm not looking for the same thing).
(Actually, Part and Gorecki were each born roughly within a year of Schnittke, Gorecki being the oldest of the three composers. Though I guess that doesn't rule out influences.)
I never think "pop" when I perform Pärt . . . unless the Eastern Orthodox liturgical choral tradition is somehow "pop" . . . .
http://www.youtube.com/v/85vsIrfo1ss
Quote from: North Star on September 15, 2014, 09:41:13 AM
Do you know these works, Chad? If not, I definitely recommend them (and the album, but then again, I don't know the other recordings)
[asin]B000092R5A[/asin]
I know the Chandos disc with the requiem, but not this disc and also no other recording of the concerto for mixed choir. The requiem is quite impressive.
The Choir Concerto is exquisite.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 16, 2014, 08:40:05 AM
The Choir Concerto is exquisite.
+1 A haunting work and undoubtedly gorgeous. I do, however, feel a bit bad for the vocalists in this work. I believe the
Choir Concerto lasts around 40 minutes or so and from what I've read is extremely difficult to sing.
In other news, I've really been enjoying Schnittke's later music tonight. Finishing up
Symphony No. 8 as I type. What do you guys make of this symphony? Schnittke's acceptance of death? His own grief wrapped up within the music? Would love to get some interpretations from you guys. The thing that I love about Schnittke is his ability to make the listener think. After a work has ended, especially one of his more explosive works like
Cello Concerto No. 1 or the
Concerto Grosso No. 4 (Symphony No. 5), you're left with some kind of impression of the gamut of emotions and moods that you've just heard. He seems to linger in my mind for several days and in some cases weeks. I would definitely consider Schnittke my favorite post-WWII composer.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 16, 2014, 08:40:05 AM
The Choir Concerto is exquisite.
Possibly his best work IMO. These two make for a nice contrast, with the larger and more profound sounding Danish RC having the slight edge.
BTW,
Minnesang is amazing.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518a1Y1U0XL.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71bPp8m034L._SX522_.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 06, 2014, 08:08:18 PM
In other news, I've really been enjoying Schnittke's later music tonight. Finishing up Symphony No. 8 as I type. What do you guys make of this symphony? Schnittke's acceptance of death? His own grief wrapped up within the music? Would love to get some interpretations from you guys.
I think it's one of his best works, and I prefer it to the previous 2 symphonies because of its directness and emotional expressiveness. The highlights for me are the slow movement and the short finale, which sounds like lifting off into space. The symphony as a whole reminds me a lot of Malcolm Arnold's 9th in its spirit and approach.
Quote from: Velimir on October 07, 2014, 07:29:39 AM
I think it's one of his best works, and I prefer it to the previous 2 symphonies because of its directness and emotional expressiveness. The highlights for me are the slow movement and the short finale, which sounds like lifting off into space. The symphony as a whole reminds me a lot of Malcolm Arnold's 9th in its spirit and approach.
Interesting that you compare this symphony to Arnold's 9th. I never thought of this connection before. Yeah, that slow movement
Lento is something else. Feels like some kind of meditation on death IMHO. Do you have a favorite performance of the symphony? Mine of course is Rozhdestvensky.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 07, 2014, 07:34:28 AM
Do you have a favorite performance of the symphony? Mine of course is Rozhdestvensky.
That's the one I've got, and the only one I've heard.
Quote from: Velimir on October 07, 2014, 07:51:44 AM
That's the one I've got, and the only one I've heard.
Excellent, Velimir. I love that performance. I think Rozhdestvensky really gets to the soul of the work don't you think?
What does everyone think of Schnittke's Symphony No. 9. Of course, it was only left behind in sketches but it was reconstructed by Alexander Raskatov. The ECM recording with Dennis Russell Davies is the performance to own.
[asin]B001OBML2E[/asin]
Many people seem divided on this symphony, but count me as one that enjoys the work.
I see that Schnittke remains popular around here. ::) ;D
I would love to know everyone's top 5 favorite Schnittke works. I'll have to think about mine.
Currently:
Faust Cantata, Viola Concerto, Requiem, 3rd symphony and Choir Concerto :)
Off the top of my head:
Symphonies nos. 2 & 4, Faust Cantata, Requiem & Choir Concerto
Currently:
Symphonies No.3 & 4, Concerto for piano and strings, Viola Concerto, Labyrinths.
Off the top of my head and in chronological order: Violin Sonata #2, Piano Quintet, Concerto for Piano and Strings, Peer Gynt, Symphony #8.
OTOH in no order - Choir Concerto, Minnesang, Piano Quintet, Symphony #1
and... something else? Maybe Der gelbe Klang, though it's a definite outlier.
Okay, I've assembled my list (in no particular order):
1. Requiem
2. Cello Concerto No. 1
3. Symphony No. 8
4. Peer Gynt
5. Piano Quintet
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 02, 2014, 01:46:29 PM
Okay, I've assembled my list (in no particular order):
1. Requiem
2. Cello Concerto No. 1
3. Symphony No. 8
4. Peer Gynt
5. Piano Quintet
That list very closely tracks my preferences. But on given day I might prefer the 2nd or 3rd String Quartet over the Requiem, or the Viola Cto. over the Cello Cto.
Quote from: Velimir on November 02, 2014, 01:51:18 PM
That list very closely tracks my preferences. But on given day I might prefer the 2nd or 3rd String Quartet over the Requiem, or the Viola Cto. over the Cello Cto.
Yes, I was reluctant to leave off the
Viola Concerto or even
String Quartet No. 2 which are both works I strongly connect with. I need to re-familiarize myself with
String Quartet No. 3. I've heard it before of course but I've heard so much since the last listen. I also felt bad for leaving off
Symphony No. 4 and
Faust Cantata, but this is a top five list not a top twenty. :)
Concerto Grosso No. 1, Peer Gynt, String Quartets Nos. 2 & 3, Symphony No. 5
Quote from: Trout on November 02, 2014, 02:38:02 PM
Concerto Grosso No. 1, Peer Gynt, String Quartets Nos. 2 & 3, Symphony No. 5
Ah yes,
Symphony No. 5 also known as
Concerto Grosso No. 4. Love this work. Very intense and brooding.
Choir Concerto
Symphony No. 2/ or No.8, it's a tie
Piano Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra
Minnesung
Film Music (all of the film music I've heard has been delightful, can't pick just one right now)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 02, 2014, 03:13:37 PM
Choir Concerto
Symphony No. 2/ or No.8, it's a tie
Piano Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra
Minnesung
Film Music (all of the film music I've heard has been delightful, can't pick just one right now)
Nice list, Greg. It would be nice, however, if you could narrow down your choice of film music to one work.
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on November 02, 2014, 03:06:30 PM
Requiem
Choir Concerto
2nd String Quartet 1
Symphony 2 2
Symphony 1 3
1 I keep this in my car, as my "calming down" music for when I find myself once again sitting stationary for hours in a jam with the engine switched off. (Or "driving" as it is called over here.)
2 This makes a great Finale to Bruckner's 9th Symphony, and it continues to amaze me that no-one ever thinks of programming these two together.
3 Considered as theatre. I have seen this in performance, and as a spectacle it works very well. (Doesn't always make a great deal of sense on disc alas.)
Very nice list, Soapy Molloy. I really need to give
Symphony No. 2 'St. Florian' some time to grow on me. I love the way he stacks the voices at various times in the work and combines it with that trademark Schnittkian build up of dissonances.
Quote from: edward on November 02, 2014, 01:03:32 PM
Off the top of my head and in chronological order: Violin Sonata #2, Piano Quintet, Concerto for Piano and Strings, Peer Gynt, Symphony #8.
Great list, Edward. Really enjoy all of these works.
Quote from: North Star on November 02, 2014, 12:33:36 PM
Off the top of my head:
Symphonies nos. 2 & 4, Faust Cantata, Requiem & Choir Concerto
Yet, you have so much to explore. :)
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 02, 2014, 12:44:52 PM
Currently:
Symphonies No.3 & 4, Concerto for piano and strings, Viola Concerto, Labyrinths.
All nice works, Ilaria. Surprised to see
Labyrinths make it's way onto your list. Not that I don't enjoy the work, but it seems to be one of those lesser-known Schnittke works that people don't talk about much like one of his other ballets,
Sketches.
Quote from: North Star on November 02, 2014, 12:33:36 PM
Off the top of my head:
Symphonies nos. 2 & 4, Faust Cantata, Requiem & Choir Concerto
I see that I have a recording of the
Faust Cantata! But have not yet listened. Soon!
Quote from: karlhenning on November 03, 2014, 04:21:36 AM
I see that I have a recording of the Faust Cantata! But have not yet listened. Soon!
Which performance? DePreist? Boreyko? Rozhdestvensky?
DePreist, I suppose!
[asin]B000027EI2[/asin]
Quote from: karlhenning on November 03, 2014, 05:30:00 AM
DePreist, I suppose!
[asin]B000027EI2[/asin]
Sweet! I love that whole recording. Enjoy, my friend.
BTW, Karl, remind me, have you listened to Peer Gynt yet? Such an awesome work.
I have, but only once, and I need to get back to it.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 07, 2014, 02:34:01 AM
I have, but only once, and I need to get back to it.
Wonderful! I'd love to hear your impressions of it whenever you've absorbed it again, Karl.
Quote from: edward on May 01, 2007, 11:13:34 AM
Yes. Schnittke's father was a Volga German, and his mother a Russian Jew.That--plus his spending some of his teens in the Russian sector of Vienna--might explain a lot of the cultural cross-cutting in his work.
A correction: Schnittke's father was a German Jew and his mother was a Volga German.
Okay, inspired by John's av . . . what will our playlist be for A Very Schnittke Christmas?
Quote from: karlhenning on December 15, 2014, 11:17:34 AM
Okay, inspired by John's av . . . what will our playlist be for A Very Schnittke Christmas?
:D Excellent question, Karl! Nice avatar, BTW. 8)
Here would be a cool program:
Stille Nacht (naturally since this is a Holiday favorite)
(K)ein SommernachtstraumFour Hymns for chamber ensembleChoir Concerto
The av is from last year and (IIRC) by courtesy of Greg.
Quote from: karlhenning on December 16, 2014, 04:02:04 AM
The av is from last year and (IIRC) by courtesy of Greg.
Very nice, indeed.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 15, 2014, 01:19:29 PM
:D Excellent question, Karl! Nice avatar, BTW. 8)
Here would be a cool program:
Stille Nacht (naturally since this is a Holiday favorite)
(K)ein Sommernachtstraum
Four Hymns for chamber ensemble
Choir Concerto
You know what? I should be ashamed of myself, I never followed-up with this
A Very Schnittke Christmas program. Perhaps I'll do this over the weekend. Better late than never I always say.
I'm not sure if any of my fellow Schnittkians have seen this performance of Gogol Suite with Rozhdestvensky, so here is the full performance:
https://www.youtube.com/v/YO5cVoA4j-U
BIS founder and CEO Robert von Bahr says he wants the final movement of Schnittke's cello sonata played at his funeral.
After being in DSCHland for so long, and lately listening to both the VCs, I was massively put off by Schnittke's VCs just now, how interesting. I was going with VC4, and I was rolling my eyes at all the editing and cut and paste and so forth, whilst, of course, at the same time enjoying just the aural spectacle (Kremer/Teldec). But, with DSCH's VC2H was
oh, sheeet, I just accidentally Deleted everything, oh well,
DSCH = beautiful
Schnittke = bitter and ugly
I also compared Penderecki's VC1, which seemed like a middle ground almost, although it's exhausting in its relentlessness, and very monolithic. The two Russians are much more colourful. But DSCH is purely musical, whereas Schnittke, well,...maybe I just don't approve, mmm. maybe I think he panders?
I mean, I certainly like listening to this kremer set, it sounds great, so, you know, it's all good, I'm just being critical.
carry on $:) (Benny Hill)
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 01, 2015, 09:15:08 PM
I'm not sure if any of my fellow Schnittkians have seen this performance of Gogol Suite with Rozhdestvensky, so here is the full performance:
https://www.youtube.com/v/YO5cVoA4j-U
That is not the Gogol Suite, but rather another suite that Rozhdestvensky assembled based on some of Schnittke's film music.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 30, 2015, 07:22:39 PM
After being in DSCHland for so long, and lately listening to both the VCs, I was massively put off by Schnittke's VCs just now, how interesting. I was going with VC4, and I was rolling my eyes at all the editing and cut and paste and so forth, whilst, of course, at the same time enjoying just the aural spectacle (Kremer/Teldec). But, with DSCH's VC2H was
oh, sheeet, I just accidentally Deleted everything, oh well,
DSCH = beautiful
Schnittke = bitter and ugly
I also compared Penderecki's VC1, which seemed like a middle ground almost, although it's exhausting in its relentlessness, and very monolithic. The two Russians are much more colourful. But DSCH is purely musical, whereas Schnittke, well,...maybe I just don't approve, mmm. maybe I think he panders?
I mean, I certainly like listening to this kremer set, it sounds great, so, you know, it's all good, I'm just being critical.
carry on $:) (Benny Hill)
I don't believe Schnittke's violin concerti are among his best works (actually far from it).
Violin Concerto No. 4 is as gimmicky as Tippett's
Symphony No. 4 where there's some kind breathing involved in the music and this is just a terrible idea altogether. The
Viola Concerto and
Cello Concerti 1 & 2 are his masterpieces as far as concertante works go IMHO. I also like the
Concerto for Piano and Strings a lot as well. Anyway, I could have saved you the trouble and told you to avoid those VCs. 8)
Quote from: lescamil on August 30, 2015, 07:53:43 PM
That is not the Gogol Suite, but rather another suite that Rozhdestvensky assembled based on some of Schnittke's film music.
Ah okay. It's great fun nevertheless. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2015, 08:00:39 PM
Violin Concerto No. 4 is as gimmicky as Tippett's Symphony No. 4 where there's some kind breathing involved in the music and this is just a terrible idea altogether.
I believe the heavy breathing in the EMI recording of the Fourth Violin Concerto was Kremer's idea. Schnittke's instructions for the work direct the violinist to offer a more well-rounded visual interpretation of his plight. It would be nice if we got a performance on DVD (or even a simple TV rip uploaded to YouTube) to see how well that works.
Quote from: CRCulver on August 30, 2015, 08:37:13 PM
I believe the heavy breathing in the EMI recording of the Fourth Violin Concerto was Kremer's idea. Schnittke's instructions for the work direct the violinist to offer a more well-rounded visual interpretation of his plight. It would be nice if we got a performance on DVD (or even a simple TV rip uploaded to YouTube) to see how well that works.
Yes, but it still sounds gimmicky to me. :-\
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2015, 08:44:41 PM
Yes, but it still sounds gimmicky to me. :-\
That gimmick is not Schnittke's, but is Kremer's thing. Schnittke instructs the violinist to perform a "visual cadenza" with no sound (in the score: "improvvisando simile [after an ad libitum section with no specified pitches], poco a poco senza suoni ma molto appasionato (CADENZA VISUALE!)") and the pitch is gradually added back in later on the open G. It would not come out in recording well, so Kremer thought he probably had to do SOMETHING to compensate.
Here is an interpretation:
https://youtu.be/FmABJjJLRMU?t=5m54s
Cross-posted from a thread I created:
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 06, 2015, 05:12:12 PM
Schnittke's PEER GYNT
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wR06XVuHsoA/TzWavybeQTI/AAAAAAAABZE/MNvEz-MHDXs/s1600/PeerGynt2.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5xxVrB8n-_A/TzWcyqVF14I/AAAAAAAABZY/RH9xNvFJ-o0/s1600/PeerGynt9.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ow5EdbysQ4Y/VYcokX33GnI/AAAAAAAAHTE/GrKH5kbafyY/s1600/Peer_Gynt_12.png)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5ctb-xnjCHs/TzWesn3_sDI/AAAAAAAABZk/xB4zAHa28Co/s1600/PeerGynt3.jpg)(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KSdJz4EoKBU/TzWv9hU3xhI/AAAAAAAABZw/lEQ1Y4ayYdU/s1600/PeerGynt4.jpg)(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2CPJokiMHYo/TzW5qzIuARI/AAAAAAAABZ8/amqXpBEX7jE/s1600/PeerGynt5.jpg)
[All photographs taken from http://christianerdmann.blogspot.com/2012/02/x-x.html (http://christianerdmann.blogspot.com/2012/02/x-x.html)]
(http://www.wdr3.de/alfredschnittke104_v-ARDFotogalerie.jpg)
The ballet Peer Gynt has already been labeled by some as Alfred Schnittke's masterpiece. Written for American choreographer John Neumeier's adaptation of Ibsen's play, Schnittke's score is a monumental work of will -- a massive score for huge orchestra which Schnittke continued to work on even after his first major stroke in 1985. And as a collective whole, the ballet offers perhaps the best single introduction to Schnittke's music -- to his characteristic sound-world and gestural vocabulary, to his famous "polystylistic" approach, and to his larger aesthetic philosophy.
The orchestral sound of Peer Gynt is unmistakably Schnittkean. The core is composed of Schnittke's phantasmagoric "continuo" ensemble -- bells, glockenspiel, vibraphone, marimba on the one hand, and piano, harpsichord, celesta, and harp on the other; the strings constitute work's the wide, often sprawling lyric line; and the winds and brass frequently serve an emblematic Schnittkean role as demonic, menacing forces.
Stylistically, Peer Gynt is all over the map. Schnittke pays due homage to Edvard Grieg's famous precedent with the "fakes" of Act II. But on a larger level, Schnittke's ballet also constitutes a tribute to the great ballet-tradition of his own Russian heritage, from Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty and Romeo and Juliet, through Stravinsky's Firebird and Petroushka, to Shostakovich's The Bolt, and especially the particular melodic brilliance of Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet. Upon this scaffolding Schnittke piles yet more allusive density, from faux-ragtime (on a mis-tuned upright piano reminiscent of Berg's Wozzeck), to ruthless parodies of schlocky Hollywood film scores, to the venerable Russian choral tradition summoned by Peer Gynt's extraordinary Epilogue. Finally, Schnittke's ballet is a tour-de-force of leitmotivic associations worthy of Wagner's music-dramas, its themes returning in countless and perpetual transformations through the very last bars.
As a representation of Schnittke's aesthetic stance, Peer Gynt occupies a special position, bridging the gap between his earlier career and the work he would produce following his 1985 stroke -- after which Schnittke felt everything "must be different." Whereas the Schnittke of the 1970's and early 80's "had the sense that things outside [him]self had a specific crystalline structure," he confessed in 1988 (after finishing Peer Gynt) that "things [were] different: [he] [could] no longer see this crystalline structure, only incessantly shifting, unstable forms. -- Our world seems ... to be a world of illusions, unlimited and unending. There is a realm of shadows in it..."
It is difficult to imagine Schnittke speaking in such terms before writing Peer Gynt; the entire story of Ibsen's original play by deals with the search for reality amidst "a world of shadows," in which the greatest evils are distraction and illusion, and the will of self-discovery is constantly threatened by corruption, temptation, triviality, and betrayal. While Schnittke was always fascinated with such issues, after his first stroke these concepts seem to solidify anew. Whether the composition of Peer Gynt actually transformed Schnittke's perceptual foundations, or whether it simply offered the ideal outlet for them, the ballet is Schnittke's greatest epic of the moral and artistic shadow world.
This is best illustrated by Schnittke's and Neumeier's approach to adapting Peer Gynt from the theatrical to the balletic stage. The two conceived of the story unfolding in four Kreise, or "different spheres of activity." The first three Kreise constitute, respectively, Peer's Norway childhood, his flight into a "world of illusions," and his disillusioning return home as an adult; the fourth Kreis materializes only outside reality as the pure "sound-space" of the half-hour Epilogue. Schnittke felt that the "entire music of the ballet [was] like a preliminary stage to this last Kreis."
[Article taken from All Music Guide]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Schnittke's Peer Gynt, for me, is easily one of the greatest works of the 20th Century. In a century that's full of stylistic evolutions, revolutions, and chaos, this work hits this listener like a ton of bricks. With all of the uncertainties, hopes, dreams, delusions, and spiritual/political demarcations, Peer Gynt speaks of its time. There are moments of absolute beauty, clanging dissonances, and heartfelt confessionals. Schnittke was a man who clearly understood the nature of our society and while he injected his music with his own humor, the music confronts the listener with harsh realities. To me, Schnittke has yet to take ahold of the classical music world as perhaps people aren't quite ready for what this music can do and for what it means.
There are virtually no other recordings available of Peer Gynt except for the excellent Eri Klas recording on BIS. It would be nice to get another recording and for this masterful ballet to get a 21st Century facelift, but it doesn't look like this is going to happen. My fingers are crossed however.
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/BIS-CD-677-78.jpg)
For those interested in exploring this ballet's history, I must recommend this excellent article:
http://christianerdmann.blogspot.com/2012/02/x-x.html (http://christianerdmann.blogspot.com/2012/02/x-x.html)
Oh and I'm not expecting many replies to this thread, but that's certainly okay as this is a work I felt I needed to post about. If you like Schnittke's music, then you owe it to yourself to check out Peer Gynt. This is, perhaps, one of the greatest things he's done.
I was just (a couple of weeks ago) at Besseggen where the opening part of Peer Gynt with the stag's ride, as recounted to his mother, takes place. :D
(http://www.temperance.dk/blog/pics2013/Dalseter_Norway_2013_284.JPG)
(http://www.temperance.dk/blog/pics2013/Dalseter_Norway_2013_277.JPG)
Pretty steep for a stag's ride, but then Peer was a consumate lier.
Quote from: The new erato on September 08, 2015, 02:21:21 AM
I was just (a couple of weeks ago) at Besseggen where the opening part of Peer Gynt with the stag's ride, as recounted to his mother, takes place. :D
(http://www.temperance.dk/blog/pics2013/Dalseter_Norway_2013_284.JPG)
(http://www.temperance.dk/blog/pics2013/Dalseter_Norway_2013_277.JPG)
Pretty steep for a stag's ride, but then Peer was a consumate lier.
Very nice! Beautiful photos, erato. 8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2015, 08:00:39 PM
I don't believe Schnittke's violin concerti are among his best works (actually far from it). Violin Concerto No. 4 is as gimmicky as Tippett's Symphony No. 4 where there's some kind breathing involved in the music and this is just a terrible idea altogether. The Viola Concerto and Cello Concerti 1 & 2 are his masterpieces as far as concertante works go IMHO. I also like the Concerto for Piano and Strings a lot as well. Anyway, I could have saved you the trouble and told you to avoid those VCs. 8)
i SEEM TO RECALL RAVING WHEN i FIRST HEARD IT, BUT NOW (whoops) I believe that the
Concerto Grosso No.5 is Schnittke's best overall "Violin Concerto". It's certainly free of a lot of Schnittke-isms, and must rank as one of his most experimental later works, along with things like the
4-Hand Piano Concerto. The atmosphere is one of expectant experimentation, a la late Schnittke- I don't know, I find the right word difficult,- Kremer is flying and flailing for most of the piece, much of it quite in the stratosphere.
Anyhow, this is the Schnittke that I can hear again and again,... for now, lol!!
Symphony No.6I also took out the "correct" Chandos recording of Sym6, and I do believe I had the same feeling before on this Thread, that this is one of his best late achievements - though I don't even have Sym8, I do believe I'd prefer this to that. Anyhow, the gloom factor is quite high here, and, I have absolutely no complaints here- and the recording and performance compel one to hear all of Schnittke's cool sounds that he makes out of the orchestra.
Maybe I'll continue a little more with Schnittke whilst I wallow in this post-DSCH haze.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 08, 2015, 02:49:26 PM
i SEEM TO RECALL RAVING WHEN i FIRST HEARD IT, BUT NOW (whoops) I believe that the Concerto Grosso No.5 is Schnittke's best overall "Violin Concerto". It's certainly free of a lot of Schnittke-isms, and must rank as one of his most experimental later works, along with things like the 4-Hand Piano Concerto. The atmosphere is one of expectant experimentation, a la late Schnittke- I don't know, I find the right word difficult,- Kremer is flying and flailing for most of the piece, much of it quite in the stratosphere.
Anyhow, this is the Schnittke that I can hear again and again,... for now, lol!!
Symphony No.6
I also took out the "correct" Chandos recording of Sym6, and I do believe I had the same feeling before on this Thread, that this is one of his best late achievements - though I don't even have Sym8, I do believe I'd prefer this to that. Anyhow, the gloom factor is quite high here, and, I have absolutely no complaints here- and the recording and performance compel one to hear all of Schnittke's cool sounds that he makes out of the orchestra.
Maybe I'll continue a little more with Schnittke whilst I wallow in this post-DSCH haze.
I think Schnittke's
Symphony No. 8 is among his greatest works of any period. Sure, the later works have gloomy, introspective atmosphere to them, but I've come to love so many of these works from this period. If you're considering picking a copy of the 8th, get the Rozhdestvensky performance on Chandos. You'll thank me later. ;) I haven't been too impressed with Polyansky's series on Chandos, but love what he did outside of the symphonies like the
Requiem and his accompaniment to Ivashkin in the CCs is just spot-on. Polyansky's
Choir Concerto performance is also just breathtaking.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 08, 2015, 06:40:12 PM
the 8th, get the Rozhdestvensky performance on Chandos. You'll thank me later. ;)
::)
I was toying with the idea of starting a false argument with you over this by claiming the other one's obvious superiority, and blah blah,... question,- would you have fallen for it? Tee hee, I've tricked you before, lol- can you imagine the sheer epic lols- even you would be splitting stitches- c'mon, we all need some drama, mm?
Maybe it would have started with- "Holy shit, everyone knows the Klebnikov (whatever that other Chandos is) trumps Polyansky in the 8th, ehat? can't you hear right?"
Maybe not that, but, you certainly wouldn't have wanted me to sit up all night conspiring on how toSchnittke-prank you-..... well, maybe it's too cruel, you do take Schnittke a bit seriously, lol,-- but we've all been there..... oh, but it would have been delicious...
mm?
:laugh: :'( :P ;)
anyhow---- you seem a bit cool on the Concerto Grosso No.5?
I'm taking the V
iolin Concerto No.1 (1957; rev. 1963) with me tonite
Quote from: CRCulver on August 30, 2015, 08:37:13 PM
I believe the heavy breathing in the EMI recording of the Fourth Violin Concerto was Kremer's idea. Schnittke's instructions for the work direct the violinist to offer a more well-rounded visual interpretation of his plight. It would be nice if we got a performance on DVD (or even a simple TV rip uploaded to YouTube) to see how well that works.
The premiere recording of the piece on Melodiya (with Kremer as soloist and Rozhdestvensky conducting a student orchestra) is IMO greatly to be preferred to the later Kremer recording. If you can find it on its
Musica non grata incarnation, you also get the Kremer/Grindenko/Bashmet/Georgian/Smirnov recording of the piano quintet, which I'd unhesitatingly nominate as the greatest performance of any Schnittke work on record.
[asin]B000025460[/asin]
Quote from: snyprrr on September 09, 2015, 04:59:41 PM
::)
I was toying with the idea of starting a false argument with you over this by claiming the other one's obvious superiority, and blah blah,... question,- would you have fallen for it? Tee hee, I've tricked you before, lol- can you imagine the sheer epic lols- even you would be splitting stitches- c'mon, we all need some drama, mm?
Maybe it would have started with- "Holy shit, everyone knows the Klebnikov (whatever that other Chandos is) trumps Polyansky in the 8th, ehat? can't you hear right?"
Maybe not that, but, you certainly wouldn't have wanted me to sit up all night conspiring on how toSchnittke-prank you-..... well, maybe it's too cruel, you do take Schnittke a bit seriously, lol,-- but we've all been there..... oh, but it would have been delicious...
mm?
:laugh: :'( :P ;)
anyhow---- you seem a bit cool on the Concerto Grosso No.5?
I'm taking the Violin Concerto No.1 (1957; rev. 1963) with me tonite
Of course, I was joking around with the 'you'll thank me later' comment. :) This said, I've heard the Polyansky, Rozhdestvensky, and the BIS version (forget the name of the conductor) and I still love the Rozhdestvensky and what he did with the music. I don't remember
Concerto Grosso No. 5, so I'll have to plan a revisit of it soon.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 09, 2015, 05:19:03 PM
Of course, I was joking around with the 'you'll thank me later' comment. :) This said, I've heard the Polyansky, Rozhdestvensky, and the BIS version (forget the name of the conductor) and I still love the Rozhdestvensky and what he did with the music. I don't remember Concerto Grosso No. 5, so I'll have to plan a revisit of it soon.
Enjoyed the craggy and obvious VC1,- kind of like Baby Dracula's First Opus?! creaky, odd, disjointed, a bleak melody, bare trees,...Kremer and Eschenbach probably make it sound better than it is.
Skipped to Lutoslawski/Dutilleux Cello Concertos... see Thread...hrr,hmm
As some of you know from another thread, I enjoy to traverse a composer's symphonic output in composition sequence and in a limited time frame (like two symphonies a day). I find this approach can help understand the music at a deeper level by adding context and developmental evolution. So I have been doing this with Schnittke's Symphonies and I'm struggling to get through them all.
So far:
* Symphony No. 0/Owain Arwell Hughes: Quite strong for such a youthful work. Large scale and good development. This shows Schnittke to be a natural symphonist and only a few stylistic hints at Shostakovitch whose shadow looms large over any 1950's Soviet composer. In short, it seems right from the start he wanted to be individual.
* Symphony No. 1/Gennady Rozhdestvensky on Chandos: Too much collage. It had its moments by overall it drove me crazy.
* Symphony No. 2/Leif Segerstrom on BIS: Nice choral writing but this seems like too many different works being written on top of each other. I get it, the polystylist collage was still a big deal but it is quite irritating for the listener and I doubt very challenging for the composer. These works are very big, very loud, and not very satisfying.
* Symphony No. 3/Vladimir Jurowsky on Pentatone: Another big symphony but this one seems to have settled a bit more. To me, this sounds someone what like Per Norgard's Symphony No. 3 (minus chorus) but now something where the ideas are congealing into more of a through-composed stream. The polystylism is much better integrated (showing musical development). This is probably my favorite of the early symphonies because there is clarity of intent...something is coming into focus though covered in mist. I believe approaching this symphony in sequence shows it to be stronger version (or culmination) of what came before and maybe even the end of style. If I had just started here, I might have dismissed how we got here.
This is harder to traverse mostly because these are overly long, clanging, and blend into each other somewhat. I am a lover of structure which is why I can tolerate long and loud music when it comes from start to finish through a process or transformative evolution.
So am I in for more of the same when I resume at No. 4? Am I missing something bigger with how to approach Schnittke? I have heard several of the sparse later symphonies and am a big fan of No. 5/Concerto Grosso No. 5(?).
Quote from: relm1 on September 11, 2015, 07:02:55 AM
As some of you know from another thread, I enjoy to traverse a composer's symphonic output in composition sequence and in a limited time frame (like two symphonies a day). I find this approach can help understand the music at a deeper level by adding context and developmental evolution. So I have been doing this with Schnittke's Symphonies and I'm struggling to get through them all.
So far:
* Symphony No. 0/Owain Arwell Hughes: Quite strong for such a youthful work. Large scale and good development. This shows Schnittke to be a natural symphonist and only a few stylistic hints at Shostakovitch whose shadow looms large over any 1950's Soviet composer. In short, it seems right from the start he wanted to be individual.
* Symphony No. 1/Gennady Rozhdestvensky on Chandos: Too much collage. It had its moments by overall it drove me crazy.
* Symphony No. 2/Leif Segerstrom on BIS: Nice choral writing but this seems like too many different works being written on top of each other. I get it, the polystylist collage was still a big deal but it is quite irritating for the listener and I doubt very challenging for the composer. These works are very big, very loud, and not very satisfying.
* Symphony No. 3/Vladimir Jurowsky on Pentatone: Another big symphony but this one seems to have settled a bit more. To me, this sounds someone what like Per Norgard's Symphony No. 3 (minus chorus) but now something where the ideas are congealing into more of a through-composed stream. The polystylism is much better integrated (showing musical development). This is probably my favorite of the early symphonies because there is clarity of intent...something is coming into focus though covered in mist. I believe approaching this symphony in sequence shows it to be stronger version (or culmination) of what came before and maybe even the end of style. If I had just started here, I might have dismissed how we got here.
This is harder to traverse mostly because these are overly long, clanging, and blend into each other somewhat. I am a lover of structure which is why I can tolerate long and loud music when it comes from start to finish through a process or transformative evolution.
So am I in for more of the same when I resume at No. 4? Am I missing something bigger with how to approach Schnittke? I have heard several of the sparse later symphonies and am a big fan of No. 5/Concerto Grosso No. 5(?).
Why limit yourself only to the symphonies? What about the
Piano Quintet? What about the concerti for cello and viola? What about
Peer Gynt (although he wrote two other ballets)? Not to mention the
Requiem,
Faust Cantata, and the
Choir Concerto. These are all works that you should explore next. I enjoy some of the symphonies (mainly the 4th, 5th, and 8th), but I don't consider these works to be the
only Schnittke someone needs to hear.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 11, 2015, 02:46:10 PM
Why limit yourself only to the symphonies? What about the Piano Quintet? What about the concerti for cello and viola? What about Peer Gynt (although he wrote two other ballets)? Not to mention the Requiem, Faust Cantata, and the Choir Concerto. These are all works that you should explore next. I enjoy some of the symphonies (mainly the 4th, 5th, and 8th), but I don't consider these works to be the only Schnittke someone needs to hear.
I already know and like those works. I don't know the symphonies though. My favorite is the piano quintet and viola concerto. I also enjoy his film music quite a bit.
* Symphony No. 4 (+ Requiem)/Okko Kamu on BIS : I have always been fond of Okko Kamu and this is my favorite symphony so far. I didn't catch any collage but rather tension cluster risers alternating with serene wordless semi-chorus. The Requiem is a terrific and unique take on the material and makes a satisfying conclusion to this disc. The only disappointment was in the Requiem Credo with the poorly judged inclusion of a drum kit. Aside from that, it is dark but not overbearing. It would also make a good counterpart to his "In Memoriam" arrangement of the Piano Quintet. This is a wonderful and contemplative CD.
* Symphony No. 5/Gennady Rozhdestvensky on Melodiya: My favorite of his symphonies so far. It is very inventive with a recurring theme that develops across its span. The structure and imagination is substantial. I notice Schnittke reinvent himself and when you consider how far he has come since Symphony No. 1, an evolution is apparent. Each new symphony I encounter in this middle period seems to be my new favorite but this one is my current favorite.
Quote from: relm1 on September 12, 2015, 01:43:42 PM
The only disappointment was in the Requiem Credo with the poorly judged inclusion of a drum kit.
Funny that you bemoan that. Most Schnittke fans I know personally consider the drum kit the aspect of the Requiem that makes it so memorable and effective. To hear someone criticize it is like hearing someone say that the Concerto Grosso No. 1 would be better without the tango on the harpsichord.
Quote from: CRCulver on September 12, 2015, 02:23:56 PM
Funny that you bemoan that. Most Schnittke fans I know personally consider the drum kit the aspect of the Requiem that makes it so memorable and effective. To hear someone criticize it is like hearing someone say that the Concerto Grosso No. 1 would be better without the tango on the harpsichord.
+1
This is one thing I was quite startled by when I first heard the
Requiem, but then I kept replaying this section over and over again. I couldn't imagine this particular movement
without the drum kit. It just wouldn't be the same or as effective.
Quote from: relm1 on September 12, 2015, 08:14:09 AM
I already know and like those works. I don't know the symphonies though. My favorite is the piano quintet and viola concerto. I also enjoy his film music quite a bit.
What about
Four Hymns for chamber ensemble,
Labyrinths,
Gogol Suite,
Sketches,
Cello Sonatas 1 & 2, the
Concerti Grossi, all of the PCs, the SQs, etc.?
* Symphony No. 6/Tadaaki Otaka on BIS: Ok, something interesting is happening. I don't know if Schnittke's symphonies are getting better or I am getting more accustomed to them since I am listening daily. I was expecting something more in the line of No. 5 but this is sparser yet still engaging. I am enjoying this traversal and it makes me want/need to explore him more. I do find the Adagio of this symphony to remind me somewhat of Mahler 10 adagio...almost as if Schnittke is a transitional composer between eras.
* Symphony No. 7/Tadaaki Otaka on BIS: Interesting how early symphonies were massive and as they progressed they became more intimate. Unmistakably the same composer (lots of cluster blasts) but still unique. Clusters alternate with thematic material. This is probably the evolution of collage. Old + new=Schnittke.
I am sad that I have only one CD left in my traversal and that Schnittke is no longer with us. He would probably be at Symphony No. 14 by now and exploring new territory.
Quote from: relm1 on September 11, 2015, 07:02:55 AM
* Symphony No. 1/Gennady Rozhdestvensky on Chandos: Too much collage. It had its moments by overall it drove me crazy.
You say that like it's a bad thing ;)
Quote from: relm1 on September 13, 2015, 04:07:11 PM
* Symphony No. 6/Tadaaki Otaka on BIS: Ok, something interesting is happening. I don't know if Schnittke's symphonies are getting better or I am getting more accustomed to them since I am listening daily. I was expecting something more in the line of No. 5 but this is sparser yet still engaging. I am enjoying this traversal and it makes me want/need to explore him more. I do find the Adagio of this symphony to remind me somewhat of Mahler 10 adagio...almost as if Schnittke is a transitional composer between eras.
* Symphony No. 7/Tadaaki Otaka on BIS: Interesting how early symphonies were massive and as they progressed they became more intimate. Unmistakably the same composer (lots of cluster blasts) but still unique. Clusters alternate with thematic material. This is probably the evolution of collage. Old + new=Schnittke.
I am sad that I have only one CD left in my traversal and that Schnittke is no longer with us. He would probably be at Symphony No. 14 by now and exploring new territory.
By the time of his
Symphony No. 6, Schnittke's style had changed and he left behind the more polystylistic elements of his earlier style in favor of something more sparse and emotionally inward. This is where some listeners jumped ship, but those that continued to listen, had found, as I did, that this was the direction his music was going in for years. Those extroverted works where he exploits all kinds of genres of music in a cohesive fashion seem like they were composed by a completely different man compared to his later works. I love all periods of Schnittke's development (even his Shostakovich-inspired student works), but a work like
Symphony No. 8 is a testament to what this composer is about with that
Lento movement alone speaking volumes of his own mental and spiritual state. I'm sure you will find much enjoyment in this symphony.
* Symphony No.8/Jia Lu on BIS: This is a very moving symphony with elegance and restraint. The central Lento doesn't feel pessimistic to me but rather retrospective and deeply introverted. Though the orchestra is large, its full presence is rarely heard (pretty much it waits to the IV movement) making its impact even greater than the earlier symphonies. I have never heard this beautiful symphony before and very glad to have encountered it as the culmination of a traversal. Schnittke has covered so much ground stylistically and the music doesn't feel cynical but extremely heartfelt. I loved the unresolved ascending cluster that ended the symphony. A transformative conclusion and I can see what Mirror Image means by saying this symphony is the culmination of Schnittke. The ending of this symphony leaves me hungry for more but...
* Symphony No. 9/Owain Arwell Hughes on BIS:
In retrospect, I feel the perfect ending to the cycle would be with No. 8. Sort of like how Bruckner No. 9 in three movements feels so complete even though the Berlin/Simon Rattle recording with the completed 4th movement is probably what was intended, the cycle feels complete with the serene ending after the tumult that came before rather than triumph that comes with the 4th movement. Basically, after hearing No. 9 in the reconstructed version by Aleksander Raskatov, I prefer the feeling that No. 8 left me with. I am glad we have a performable version of No. 9 but feel the cycle was already fully satisfying.
Conclusions:
• The Mahler and Shostakovich roots are heard but the music is never derivative. Schnittke was a truly individual symphonist.
• If I had listened to the symphonies individually, I wouldn't have felt Schnittke to be a major 20th century symphonist the way I feel now. Each symphony is unique and there is a clearly individual and developing voice from the start.
• The trend is certainly towards reduction of ideas but the same could be said of Mahler. In fact, one could almost surmise that Schnittke is the spiritual kin to Mahler more than he is of Shostakovich. For instance, Mahler incorporated the sounds he was exposed to. In Schnittke we hear this in his collage. I feel this quote from Mahler could apply to Schnittke as well: "It is strange how one feels drawn forward without knowing at first where one is going."
• It did take some time for me to get into the "sound world" that he inhabits but this is why I am glad to have started out with No. 0.
Quote from: relm1 on September 14, 2015, 08:15:06 AM
* Symphony No.8/Jia Lu on BIS: This is a very moving symphony with elegance and restraint. The central Lento doesn’t feel pessimistic to me but rather retrospective and deeply introverted. Though the orchestra is large, its full presence is rarely heard (pretty much it waits to the IV movement) making its impact even greater than the earlier symphonies. I have never heard this beautiful symphony before and very glad to have encountered it as the culmination of a traversal. Schnittke has covered so much ground stylistically and the music doesn’t feel cynical but extremely heartfelt. I loved the unresolved ascending cluster that ended the symphony. A transformative conclusion and I can see what Mirror Image means by saying this symphony is the culmination of Schnittke. The ending of this symphony leaves me hungry for more but…
* Symphony No. 9/Owain Arwell Hughes on BIS:
In retrospect, I feel the perfect ending to the cycle would be with No. 8. Sort of like how Bruckner No. 9 in three movements feels so complete even though the Berlin/Simon Rattle recording with the completed 4th movement is probably what was intended, the cycle feels complete with the serene ending after the tumult that came before rather than triumph that comes with the 4th movement. Basically, after hearing No. 9 in the reconstructed version by Aleksander Raskatov, I prefer the feeling that No. 8 left me with. I am glad we have a performable version of No. 9 but feel the cycle was already fully satisfying.
Conclusions:
• The Mahler and Shostakovich roots are heard but the music is never derivative. Schnittke was a truly individual symphonist.
• If I had listened to the symphonies individually, I wouldn’t have felt Schnittke to be a major 20th century symphonist the way I feel now. Each symphony is unique and there is a clearly individual and developing voice from the start.
• The trend is certainly towards reduction of ideas but the same could be said of Mahler. In fact, one could almost surmise that Schnittke is the spiritual kin to Mahler more than he is of Shostakovich. For instance, Mahler incorporated the sounds he was exposed to. In Schnittke we hear this in his collage. I feel this quote from Mahler could apply to Schnittke as well: “It is strange how one feels drawn forward without knowing at first where one is going.”
• It did take some time for me to get into the “sound world” that he inhabits but this is why I am glad to have started out with No. 0.
Most interesting, thanks.
String Quartet No.4One can surely not deny that the Alban Berg Quartet bring refinement and sophistication, and their 'live' performance of Schnittke's last SQ brings out any and all "Old World" feelings that this most inward of Schnittke scores presents. I hadn't really payed attention much to the opening movement, apparently, because this time I heard all the micro-tonal ennui that caught my ear. It seems Schnittke was trying to perfect the effect of "nausea", and here one can feel the shifting moods of angst and despair very well.
This is a long piece, and meaty and weighty, and seems to me to be DSCH's 18th SQ,... I believe Schnittke set out to make a DSCH SQ, and that this is what we got. I certainly will continue with this piece as an appendage of DSCH's legacy.
I'm going to call it a Masterpiece of 'Gotterdammerung' Music, the last gasp of 'Ultra-Late Romanticism' before the final flickering out (snuffing out?) of the light by the forces of darkness. How much more "towards the graveyard" can one go in music of such profound blackness? Sure, we could have special-effects of graveyard sounds, but here Schnittke sticks strictly to emotional states,- "human" feelings as opposed to "macabre".
I profer that there is no piece of Schnittke more representative of his deepest personal statement than this piece, and it is not the most easygoing endeavor to get to the end- but it stands as a huge monument, a gravestone, to what will never be again.
Quote from: relm1 on September 12, 2015, 08:14:09 AM
I already know and like those works. I don't know the symphonies though. My favorite is the piano quintet and viola concerto. I also enjoy his film music quite a bit.
I just popped for the Bashmet/TCA Viola Concerto. I may actually not ever have heard this, being I'm totally getting it confused with Penderecki's of the same era. But, everyone says it's their favorite piece, so, I look forward with expectation.
The only items left of Schnittke's that I'm interested in would be the Symphonies 3-4, which recordings should I go for?
Quote from: snyprrr on September 14, 2015, 08:38:43 AM
The only items left of Schnittke's that I'm interested in would be the Symphonies 3-4, which recordings should I go for?
This was one of my very first Schnittke purchases, and I love it.
But, of course, you know I also love the Emersons playing Shostakovich, je-je-je-jeh.[asin]B000000AZA[/asin]
Quote from: karlhenning on September 14, 2015, 08:45:06 AM
This was one of my very first Schnittke purchases, and I love it.
But, of course, you know I also love the Emersons playing Shostakovich, je-je-je-jeh.
[asin]B000000AZA[/asin]
Well, I mean, the BIS is really the only other option (Melodiya, ...meh). I can certainly see the Chandos being superior, but, sometimes those BIS discs have a ineffably mushy texture that helps in such 'misterioso' works as 3-4.
And what of Jurowski in 3? again, vs. BIS?
Jurowski's 3rd is superb (listening to it now); but I cannot compare it to BIS, and my Schnittke credentials in general are very moderate.
Quote from: relm1 on September 14, 2015, 08:15:06 AM
* Symphony No.8/Jia Lu on BIS: This is a very moving symphony with elegance and restraint. The central Lento doesn't feel pessimistic to me but rather retrospective and deeply introverted. Though the orchestra is large, its full presence is rarely heard (pretty much it waits to the IV movement) making its impact even greater than the earlier symphonies. I have never heard this beautiful symphony before and very glad to have encountered it as the culmination of a traversal. Schnittke has covered so much ground stylistically and the music doesn't feel cynical but extremely heartfelt. I loved the unresolved ascending cluster that ended the symphony. A transformative conclusion and I can see what Mirror Image means by saying this symphony is the culmination of Schnittke. The ending of this symphony leaves me hungry for more but...
* Symphony No. 9/Owain Arwell Hughes on BIS:
In retrospect, I feel the perfect ending to the cycle would be with No. 8. Sort of like how Bruckner No. 9 in three movements feels so complete even though the Berlin/Simon Rattle recording with the completed 4th movement is probably what was intended, the cycle feels complete with the serene ending after the tumult that came before rather than triumph that comes with the 4th movement. Basically, after hearing No. 9 in the reconstructed version by Aleksander Raskatov, I prefer the feeling that No. 8 left me with. I am glad we have a performable version of No. 9 but feel the cycle was already fully satisfying.
Conclusions:
• The Mahler and Shostakovich roots are heard but the music is never derivative. Schnittke was a truly individual symphonist.
• If I had listened to the symphonies individually, I wouldn't have felt Schnittke to be a major 20th century symphonist the way I feel now. Each symphony is unique and there is a clearly individual and developing voice from the start.
• The trend is certainly towards reduction of ideas but the same could be said of Mahler. In fact, one could almost surmise that Schnittke is the spiritual kin to Mahler more than he is of Shostakovich. For instance, Mahler incorporated the sounds he was exposed to. In Schnittke we hear this in his collage. I feel this quote from Mahler could apply to Schnittke as well: "It is strange how one feels drawn forward without knowing at first where one is going."
• It did take some time for me to get into the "sound world" that he inhabits but this is why I am glad to have started out with No. 0.
Thank you for doing this and you've done a service whether you realize it or not, especially to those wanting to get into Schnittke's symphonies, but not knowing where to start. I'm glad to hear your impressions of
Symphony No. 8 pretty much mirror my own. I cannot think of any other late 20th Century symphony that has had greater impact on me than this one. Since you've enjoy the 8th so much I urge you to check out the Rozhdestvensky performance on Chandos. I know, I know, some people here are probably tired of me beating this dead horse, but it certainly is preferable to any other performance I've heard including the Lu and Polyansky.
As for the 9th, I really enjoy it in all it's skeletal glory. ;) The Dennis Russell Davies performance on ECM is the best one available IMHO. It may not be a fully satisfying conclusion to the cycle, but it is very interesting in it's sonorities and general mood. Schnittke was heading into a new direction with the 9th, I'm just saddened that he never got the chance to 'finish' it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 14, 2015, 12:02:58 PM
Thank you for doing this and you've done a service whether you realize it or not, especially to those wanting to get into Schnittke's symphonies, but not knowing where to start. I'm glad to hear your impressions of Symphony No. 8 pretty much mirror my own. I cannot think of any other late 20th Century symphony that has had greater impact on me than this one. Since you've enjoy the 8th so much I urge you to check out the Rozhdestvensky performance on Chandos. I know, I know, some people here are probably tired of me beating this dead horse, but it certainly is preferable to any other performance I've heard including the Lu and Polyansky.
As for the 9th, I really enjoy it in all it's skeletal glory. ;) The Dennis Russell Davies performance on ECM is the best one available IMHO. It may not be a fully satisfying conclusion to the cycle, but it is very interesting in it's sonorities and general mood. Schnittke was heading into a new direction with the 9th, I'm just saddened that he never got the chance to 'finish' it.
Cheers fellow Schnittkian. I will check out the Rozhdestvensky No. 8 on Chandos tomorrow. Question for you about No. 9. Since you are clearly more experienced with Schnittke than I am, is the work more Raskatov than Schnittke? To me, it just didn't ring true to what I came to hear of Schnittke.
Quote from: relm1 on September 14, 2015, 05:57:06 PMCheers fellow Schnittkian. I will check out the Rozhdestvensky No. 8 on Chandos tomorrow. Question for you about No. 9. Since you are clearly more experienced with Schnittke than I am, is the work more Raskatov than Schnittke? To me, it just didn't ring true to what I came to hear of Schnittke.
I think one thing to bear in mind whenever you listen to the 9th is that it's really not a final musical statement. Schnittke was obviously very ill during the time of composition and therein lies the problem with the legibility of the score of itself. I think, if anything, Raskatov took something that was clearly impossible to get
right in terms of preciseness and did a good job with it. Sure, it's not a work that comes across as Schnittkian, but that's simply because it wasn't completed. It was a rough draft and I do mean rough. ;) But, despite whatever warts it appears to have or whether Raskatov took some liberties with the score, I still enjoy it for what it is (or perhaps what it isn't). It's certainly not something I reach for when I want my Schnittke fix, but, at the same time, it is fun to revisit on occasion.
Here's an informative article on the 9th that may shed some light on it for you:
http://www.willcwhite.com/2009/04/schnittke-symphony-no-9/
Quote from: snyprrr on September 14, 2015, 08:38:43 AMThe only items left of Schnittke's that I'm interested in would be the Symphonies 3-4, which recordings should I go for?
Klas' recording on BIS is still the best recording of the symphony available IMHO. I think the newer Jurowski is pretty good, but lacks the fire and intensity present in Klas' performance. As for the 4th, I prefer Kamu on BIS. A much more atmospheric reading that seems to only add to the mysticism of the work. Polyansky, by contrast, is harsher and less dynamic. I suppose a revisit to the Polyansky, and the Jurowski 3rd, wouldn't hurt, but these are just my initial reactions.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 14, 2015, 06:11:33 PM
I think one thing to bear in mind whenever you listen to the 9th is that it's really not a final musical statement. Schnittke was obviously very ill during the time of composition and therein lies the problem with the legibility of the score of itself. I think, if anything, Raskatov took something that was clearly impossible to get right in terms of preciseness and did a good job with it. Sure, it's not a work that comes across as Schnittkian, but that's simply because it wasn't completed. It was a rough draft and I do mean rough. ;) But, despite whatever warts it appears to have or whether Raskatov took some liberties with the score, I still enjoy it for what it is (or perhaps what it isn't). It's certainly not something I reach for when I want my Schnittke fix, but, at the same time, it is fun to revisit on occasion.
Here's an informative article on the 9th that may shed some light on it for you:
http://www.willcwhite.com/2009/04/schnittke-symphony-no-9/
Thanks for the link. I am sorry to be a jerk but this does not sway me. It is just an opinion and mine differs and I don't see a reason to adjust my opinion. I do acknowledge that Raskatov had a challenging job. I too have had challenging jobs to typeset handwritten scores that were of very poor quality and that has nothing to do with the quality of the work. Ultimately this does not make much impact to me. I am used to seeing that level of penmanship when enlisted to work on jobs like this and the musical impact is what we are talking about now. The effort taken to realize it is substantial but the quality of the music is debatable.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 14, 2015, 06:22:44 PM
Klas' recording on BIS is still the best recording of the symphony available IMHO. I think the newer Jurowski is pretty good, but lacks the fire and intensity present in Klas' performance. As for the 4th, I prefer Kamu on BIS. A much more atmospheric reading that seems to only add to the mysticism of the work. Polyansky, by contrast, is harsher and less dynamic. I suppose a revisit to the Polyansky, and the Jurowski 3rd, wouldn't hurt, but these are just my initial reactions.
those BIS disc just have that something special don't they mm hmm ;)
Quote from: relm1 on September 15, 2015, 05:27:22 PM
Thanks for the link. I am sorry to be a jerk but this does not sway me. It is just an opinion and mine differs and I don't see a reason to adjust my opinion. I do acknowledge that Raskatov had a challenging job. I too have had challenging jobs to typeset handwritten scores that were of very poor quality and that has nothing to do with the quality of the work. Ultimately this does not make much impact to me. I am used to seeing that level of penmanship when enlisted to work on jobs like this and the musical impact is what we are talking about now. The effort taken to realize it is substantial but the quality of the music is debatable.
I'm not trying to sway you or even convince you of anything, you clearly asked me a question and I gave you my answer. It's perfectly fine that you disagree with me and I'm not trying to argue or beat you over the head with my opinion. Like I said, I enjoy it for it is and not for what it could've or should've been. I also did not say anything about the work being somehow substantial just because it had to be deciphered, I simply said that the task was a daunting one for Raskatov.
All of this said, no work by Schnittke can match the ones I mentioned before IMHO. He wrote a lot of music and is quite uneven, but at his best, he really could move mountains so to speak. For me, he's a composer that challenges me, but, at the same time, gives me a lot of satisfaction. I always come away from a Schnittke work with some kind of appreciation even if the work didn't
click with me.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 15, 2015, 05:39:13 PM
those BIS disc just have that something special don't they mm hmm ;)
Not all of the performances do. :) I think Polyansky easily beats Segerstam in the 2nd (a difficult symphony to take in on first-hearing or even on a fourteenth hearing). I also think the 6th and 7th have been better performed by Polyansky. The 8th in the BIS set (w/ Lu) is one of the worst performances of the whole series and not to my liking at all. It seems to lack an atmosphere of mystery and a sharper focus which the Rozhdestvensky has in spades (again, my preferred choice of the three performances I own). The 9th with Hughes on BIS is pretty ghastly, thus, making the Dennis Russell Davies on ECM my preferred choice.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 14, 2015, 12:02:58 PM
Thank you for doing this and you've done a service whether you realize it or not, especially to those wanting to get into Schnittke's symphonies, but not knowing where to start.
Well, I took the call. I have to admit that for a very long time I have avoided to listen to Alfred Schnittke's music. I didn't like very much his string quartets and some of the more famous pieces of his polystilistic period. This changed recently when I came across an old Melodiya LP with Natalie Gutman playing the 1st cello concerto. That unbelievable perfomance put Schnittke again on the map for me. I had the box with the ten symphonies sitting in my collection for at least two years, unheard. Now I took the call and listened to symphony 8. And already on first hearing I have to say that this is a very remarkable piece. The mahlerian Lento movement is just what I am looking for in music, very moving. Such loneliness. And the end of that symphony is just as fantastic. Thanks for this suggestion. I will study this piece in more detail. And I understand that I need to have the Rozh performance.
Quote from: Wieland on September 25, 2015, 02:16:02 PM
Well, I took the call. I have to admit that for a very long time I have avoided to listen to Alfred Schnittke's music. I didn't like very much his string quartets and some of the more famous pieces of his polystilistic period. This changed recently when I came across an old Melodiya LP with Natalie Gutman playing the 1st cello concerto. That unbelievable perfomance put Schnittke again on the map for me. I had the box with the ten symphonies sitting in my collection for at least two years, unheard. Now I took the call and listened to symphony 8. And already on first hearing I have to say that this is a very remarkable piece. The mahlerian Lento movement is just what I am looking for in music, very moving. Such loneliness. And the end of that symphony is just as fantastic. Thanks for this suggestion. I will study this piece in more detail. And I understand that I need to have the Rozh performance.
This is really great to hear, Wieland. I can't seem to recall liking Gutman's performance of the
Cello Concerto No. 1 as Ivashkin on Chandos is more my cup of tea, but, regardless, it's always a good thing to hear someone else who connects to Schnittke's sound-world. Trust me, my own journey wasn't an easy one either and it ended up being a costly one as well (I sent most of the CDs I had acquired to another member here). But then one day, I forget which work I was listening to, but something just finally clicked with me. It might have been sitting down and absorbing
Peer Gynt that helped me finally understand the genius of the composer. I'm not sure if you would prefer the Rozhdestvensky in
Symphony No. 8 or not as there were several reviewers on Amazon that preferred Polyansky (also on Chandos), but that's no matter, as long as you like the music --- the performance of your choice will be a matter of personal preference. I've just always liked Rozhdestvensky for the intensity he brought to the music. That
Lento movement you spoke about is really something else in the Rozhdestvensky. He turns it into a lament or requiem of sorts. Really haunting.
I look forward to conversing more with you about Schnittke and I don't believe I've seen you around, so it's nice to make your acquaintance. 8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 25, 2015, 03:08:17 PM
This is really great to hear, Wieland. I can't seem to recall liking Gutman's performance of the Cello Concerto No. 1 as Ivashkin on Chandos is more my cup of tea, but, regardless, it's always a good thing to hear someone else who connects to Schnittke's sound-world. Trust me, my own journey wasn't an easy one either and it ended up being a costly one as well (I sent most of the CDs I had acquired to another member here). But then one day, I forget which work I was listening to, but something just finally clicked with me. It might have been sitting down and absorbing Peer Gynt that helped me finally understand the genius of the composer. I'm not sure if you would prefer the Rozhdestvensky in Symphony No. 8 or not as there were several reviewers on Amazon that preferred Polyansky (also on Chandos), but that's no matter, as long as you like the music --- the performance of your choice will be a matter of personal preference. I've just always liked Rozhdestvensky for the intensity he brought to the music. That Lento movement you spoke about is really something else in the Rozhdestvensky. He turns it into a lament or requiem of sorts. Really haunting.
I look forward to conversing more with you about Schnittke and I don't believe I've seen you around, so it's nice to make your acquaintance. 8)
Well as you found out already by yourself I am the new kid in town. However, I was on another forum for quite some time. The problem was that most of my threads focussing on 20th century music there were one-man-shows with me being the main contributor. At one point I got bored and then discovered this forum here. Seems that there are more people here who share my interests. So, I will stay.
Quote from: Wieland on September 26, 2015, 12:48:35 PM
Well as you found out already by yourself I am the new kid in town. However, I was on another forum for quite some time. The problem was that most of my threads focussing on 20th century music there were one-man-shows with me being the main contributor. At one point I got bored and then discovered this forum here. Seems that there are more people here who share my interests. So, I will stay.
I have been a member of several other forums one of them I was banned from and another one just didn't have enough conversations and things going for it. GMG is the happy medium in-between. There are many great members and many of whom I've become friends with. Yes, there are many people here who love 20th Century music. So you're definitely in good company. 8)
You got banned, MI?
Did you post your photos of Dmitri in swim trunks or something?
???
Quote from: Scion7 on September 26, 2015, 06:50:30 PM
You got banned, MI?
Did you post your photos of Dmitri in swim trunks or something?
???
Let's just say that back in those early forum days I was a bit of an agitator and I pushed many people's wrong buttons, because I suppose I thought it was funny at the time. Sometimes it is amusing to see how people take one person's opinion and paint it as gospel.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 14, 2015, 12:02:58 PM
Since you've enjoy the 8th so much I urge you to check out the Rozhdestvensky performance on Chandos. I know, I know, some people here are probably tired of me beating this dead horse, but it certainly is preferable to any other performance I've heard including the Lu and Polyansky.
Yesterday I listened to the Rozh performance which I down-loaded from itunes - something I usually don't do - but since I am on vacation right now (hiking in the Alps) there was no other way. Actually, I was surprised how good it sounded. So, this performance I like very much. The Largo is definitely more heart-felt than in the Lu performance which seems more restrained. However, in the final pages I prefer Lu since his clusters are more transparent. Anyway, this symphony is a big discovery for me and I will dig more deeply into the Schnittke universe.
Quote from: Wieland on September 27, 2015, 12:20:04 PM
Yesterday I listened to the Rozh performance which I down-loaded from itunes - something I usually don't do - but since I am on vacation right now (hiking in the Alps) there was no other way. Actually, I was surprised how good it sounded. So, this performance I like very much. The Largo is definitely more heart-felt than in the Lu performance which seems more restrained. However, in the final pages I prefer Lu since his clusters are more transparent. Anyway, this symphony is a big discovery for me and I will dig more deeply into the Schnittke universe.
Certainly great to hear. Well we must remember that
Lento movement is the heart of the symphony. Everything else just falls naturally into place. I hope you end up buying the CD as there's a great performance of
Concerto Grosso No. 6 on that recording as well. Be safe in the Alps!
.[asin]B00Q5W3A9A[/asin]
I realized after seeing a few posts about the 3rd that this symphony, along with Schnittke's 1st, were ones I have had yet to listen to. I chose the above Jurowski recording on Spotify, and what a fantastic listen it was. I specifically loved the second movement Allegro, which seems to feature every instrument and touches upon every genre so brilliantly. And the finale, which creates such a mysterious yet beautiful atmosphere, which is exactly the kind of musical character that I've grown to love from Schnittke's music. I will give the other performances of the 3rd a try, most likely starting with the Klas.
I must revisit Jurowski's performance of the 3rd, Greg. I didn't really feel anything from the performance on the first-hearing, but this may very well be that Klas' performance is imprinted into my mind. Glad to see you enjoyed the music, though.
For me Schnittke's music is still a challenge. After I discovered Symphony 8 as a major piece for me I began to explore the other symphonies. 9 is really a tough nut, I doubt that I will return to that devastating score more often. 3 also was not to my taste. Although I can appreciate the mastery of orchestration, it is this kind of polystilistic approach that I never cared much for. Symphonies 6 and 7 seem to fit me better, those I have to listen more often too.
I will also reassess the string quartets since I found the SQ 3 done by the Tate Q quite stimulating.
Quote from: Wieland on October 04, 2015, 07:45:28 AM
For me Schnittke's music is still a challenge. After I discovered Symphony 8 as a major piece for me I began to explore the other symphonies. 9 is really a tough nut, I doubt that I will return to that devastating score more often. 3 also was not to my taste. Although I can appreciate the mastery of orchestration, it is this kind of polystilistic approach that I never cared much for. Symphonies 6 and 7 seem to fit me better, those I have to listen more often too.
I will also reassess the string quartets since I found the SQ 3 done by the Tate Q quite stimulating.
What about the concerti,
Piano Quintet,
Requiem,
Choir Concerto,
Faust Cantata,
Peer Gynt, etc.? Surely, these are all masterworks and deserve attention and consideration.
Well obviously I need more to time to explore these as well. I thought four symphonies and string quartet in one week is not that bad. ;D
Quote from: Wieland on October 04, 2015, 08:07:37 AM
Well obviously I need more to time to explore these as well. I thought four symphonies and string quartet in one week is not that bad. ;D
Certainly and take your time. No rush. :)
Currently I am listening (for the second time today) to Schnittke's 4th violin concerto. This piece he wrote for and dedicated to his probably most prominent "advertiser" Gidon Kremer. I have to say that I immediately liked this piece, anyway I am fond of most violin concertos but this one is especially nice. Much lighter in tone than most of the other music of his that I know so far without being trivial. I could do without the breathing episodes but they don't really disturb me much. And the writing for the violin is marvellous as is Kremer's performance well supported by Eschenbach and the Philharmonia.
[asin]B00004Z44N[/asin]
Quote from: Wieland on October 05, 2015, 12:35:28 PM
Currently I am listening (for the second time today) to Schnittke's 4th violin concerto. This piece he wrote for and dedicated to his probably most prominent "advertiser" Gidon Kremer. I have to say that I immediately liked this piece, anyway I am fond of most violin concertos but this one is especially nice. Much lighter in tone than most of the other music of his that I know so far without being trivial. I could do without the breathing episodes but they don't really disturb me much. And the writing for the violin is marvellous as is Kremer's performance well supported by Eschenbach and the Philharmonia.
[asin]B00004Z44N[/asin]
I wish I could share your enthusiasm for Schnittke's
Violin Concerto No. 4 (or any of his VCs for that matter), but from the looks of things I won't circle back around to Schnittke for quite some time as I've entered into a Sibelius phase, which is quite easy to do when you love his music as much as I do. 8) Certainly among my favorite composers.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 05, 2015, 01:34:30 PM
I wish I could share your enthusiasm for Schnittke's Violin Concerto No. 4 (or any of his VCs for that matter), but from the looks of things I won't circle back around to Schnittke for quite some time as I've entered into a Sibelius phase, which is quite easy to do when you love his music as much as I do. 8) Certainly among my favorite composers.
Well, so enjoy your Sibelius phase and your new recordings of Kamu and Rattle. Kamu did some nice Sibelius a long time ago as a supplement to DGGs Karajan. For that composer i don't need a phase anymore since he is one of my all-time favourites anyway. And I probably also have enough recordings. Although I am curious about that new Rattle cycle from Berlin.
Quote from: Wieland on October 05, 2015, 01:45:28 PM
Well, so enjoy your Sibelius phase and your new recordings of Kamu and Rattle. Kamu did some nice Sibelius a long time ago as a supplement to DGGs Karajan. For that composer i don't need a phase anymore since he is one of my all-time favourites anyway. And I probably also have enough recordings. Although I am curious about that new Rattle cycle from Berlin.
Ah, yes, but when I say 'phases' I mean listening cycles, which I go through a lot. One month it might be this or that composer I focus heavily on and then the next month I'll get into another one. My Sibelius collection is quite large, although, admittedly I still haven't gotten around to getting any of his chamber music, but this isn't really that important to his oeuvre.
Quote from: Wieland on October 05, 2015, 12:35:28 PM
Currently I am listening (for the second time today) to Schnittke's 4th violin concerto. This piece he wrote for and dedicated to his probably most prominent "advertiser" Gidon Kremer. I have to say that I immediately liked this piece, anyway I am fond of most violin concertos but this one is especially nice. Much lighter in tone than most of the other music of his that I know so far without being trivial. I could do without the breathing episodes but they don't really disturb me much. And the writing for the violin is marvellous as is Kremer's performance well supported by Eschenbach and the Philharmonia.
[asin]B00004Z44N[/asin]
I like the Violin Concerto No.5 better.... actually the Concerto grosso No.5, but, frankly, it is a VC, and it's his most experimental, imo. No.4 is his most 'Cinematic' piece, I think, all artifice (not a bad thing)...
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 05, 2015, 01:34:30 PM
I wish I could share your enthusiasm for Schnittke's Violin Concerto No. 4 (or any of his VCs for that matter), but from the looks of things I won't circle back around to Schnittke for quite some time as I've entered into a Sibelius phase, which is quite easy to do when you love his music as much as I do. 8) Certainly among my favorite composers.
I finally got Bashmet/RCA for the Viola Cto,... mmm,... its his most intimate portrait, for sure. I hear Denisov in the 'toccata'. And there's a lot of syrupy tones coming from the viola. It seemed low-key overall, somewhat elusive,.... nice recording too. candle lit angst
How wrong could I be? I'm still in a Schnittke phase. Anyway...
Quote from: snyprrr on October 05, 2015, 05:23:27 PMI finally got Bashmet/RCA for the Viola Cto,... mmm,... its his most intimate portrait, for sure. I hear Denisov in the 'toccata'. And there's a lot of syrupy tones coming from the viola. It seemed low-key overall, somewhat elusive,.... nice recording too. candle lit angst.
Glad you enjoyed it. I like the Bashmet orchestration on that recording of
Trio Sonata as well.
Quote from: Wieland on October 05, 2015, 12:35:28 PM
Currently I am listening (for the second time today) to Schnittke's 4th violin concerto. This piece he wrote for and dedicated to his probably most prominent "advertiser" Gidon Kremer. I have to say that I immediately liked this piece, anyway I am fond of most violin concertos but this one is especially nice. Much lighter in tone than most of the other music of his that I know so far without being trivial. I could do without the breathing episodes but they don't really disturb me much. And the writing for the violin is marvellous as is Kremer's performance well supported by Eschenbach and the Philharmonia.
[asin]B00004Z44N[/asin]
Just a quick side bar: the breathing episodes are actually supposed to be silent in live performance as this is, from what I've read, supposed to be the part where there's an imaginary cadenza and the soloist mimes the part.
It's a shame that the popularity Schnittke enjoyed in the 1990s faded away after his death, and I really hope there is a renewed interest in his work in the West, because the fate of his oeuvre as a whole is very bleak in Russia. So much dissident art in the former USSR is now being swept under the rug since it makes people uncomfortable. For example, as long as Putin is alive, it's hard to imagine a performance of Life with an Idiot by any state ensemble, because the reference to Vova (Vladimir Lenin) could just as easily be taken as a reference to another man named Vova (Vladimir Putin).
Quote from: CRCulver on August 16, 2016, 10:26:18 AM
It's a shame that the popularity Schnittke enjoyed in the 1990s faded away after his death, and I really hope there is a renewed interest in his work in the West, because the fate of his oeuvre as a whole is very bleak in Russia. So much dissident art in the former USSR is now being swept under the rug since it makes people uncomfortable. For example, as long as Putin is alive, it's hard to imagine a performance of Life with an Idiot by any state ensemble, because the reference to Vova (Vladimir Lenin) could just as easily be taken as a reference to another man named Vova (Vladimir Putin).
I was skeptical of your claim so I went to the Moscow concert aggregator Meloman.ru and did a search for Schnittke performances. Only one came up for the 2016-17 season. A few years ago, one could expect several Schnittke performances per season, although he was never all that popular to begin with.
I doubt this is due primarily to political reasons, because most of his oeuvre is non-political. Ironically, he probably enjoyed a lot more exposure in the 1970s-80s (i.e. still Soviet times) than he does now.
exactly HOW Russian was Schnitkke?
Quote from: snyprrr on August 17, 2016, 11:13:39 AM
exactly HOW Russian was Schnitkke?
Well...you can't put a percentage on it but he had a very mixed background, which is reflected in his music and poly-stylistic approach.
His Wiki entry calls him "a Soviet and German composer" which seems about right.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 17, 2016, 11:13:39 AM
exactly HOW Russian was Schnitkke?
He was born in Russia but he had no Russian blood in his body. His mother was a Volga German and his dad was German Jewish. He's regarded as a Russian composer, though.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 17, 2016, 06:49:53 PM
He was born in Russia but he had no Russian blood in his body. His mother was a Volga German and his dad was German Jewish. He's regarded as a Russian composer, though.
So, technically, he's neither Russian OR Jewish! LOL Sneaky Krauts!!!!
High time I got those Violin Concerti.
Quote from: karlhenning on August 18, 2016, 08:43:05 AM
High time I got those Violin Concerti.
Try the "No.5"... the Concerto Grosso No.5, actually a Violin Concerto, with Kremer/DG... I think it's one of his most Abstrakt Werks. I like 'em all, the Teldec set is great. buyBuyBUY!!!
Quote from: snyprrr on August 18, 2016, 11:02:41 AM
Try the "No.5"... the Concerto Grosso No.5, actually a Violin Concerto, with Kremer/DG.
Aye, I have got that one,
varrrry nice.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 18, 2016, 08:40:02 AM
So, technically, he's neither Russian OR Jewish! LOL Sneaky Krauts!!!!
In an interview Schnittke once stated, that he nowwhere really felt at home. For the Russians he was a German, for the Germans a Russian, for the Catholics a Jew, for the Jews a Catholic. An conflict that is also reflected in his music. Now that he is regarded a great composer, I have the feeling it's getting into the opposite direction and everyone claims he is one of them ;D.
Quote from: chadfeldheimer on August 24, 2016, 04:45:17 AM
In an interview Schnittke once stated, that he nowwhere really felt at home. For the Russians he was a German, for the Germans a Russian, for the Catholics a Jew, for the Jews a Catholic. An conflict that is also reflected in his music. Now that he is regarded a great composer, I have the feeling it's getting into the opposite direction and everyone claims he is one of them ;D .
The ghost of
Mahler says, "Get in line, buddy."
I'm really starting to enjoy Schnittke's music. The 1st Symphony is one of the craziest works ever written, but it's a brilliant kind of crazy. I love how much of his music starts off sounding quite pleasant and tonal, but then gradually, modern dissonances start creeping in and taking over. His orchestration is great as well; the use of all the major keyboard instruments in one work (piano, celesta, harpsichord and organ, sometimes also synthesizer.) Another element is the incorporation of electric and bass guitars while still maintaining a "normal" classical sound world. In other works (Bernstein's Mass, Bolcom's Songs of Innocence and Experience), those guitars are included in passages that sound distinctly like rock/pop music.
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 09, 2016, 02:54:59 AM
I'm really starting to enjoy Schnittke's music. The 1st Symphony is one of the craziest works ever written, but it's a brilliant kind of crazy. I love how much of his music starts off sounding quite pleasant and tonal, but then gradually, modern dissonances start creeping in and taking over. His orchestration is great as well; the use of all the major keyboard instruments in one work (piano, celesta, harpsichord and organ, sometimes also synthesizer.) Another element is the incorporation of electric and bass guitars while still maintaining a "normal" classical sound world. In other works (Bernstein's Mass, Bolcom's Songs of Innocence and Experience), those guitars are included in passages that sound distinctly like rock/pop music.
Great to read. What else have you heard so far?
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 09, 2016, 05:50:53 AM
Great to read. What else have you heard so far?
I've had the recordings of the 1st and 3rd Symphonies for a few months, and I've just ordered a third disc, with Ritual, (K)ein Sommernachtstraum, Passacaglia and the Faust Cantata. I definitely want to get Nagasaki too; I heard it the other day and was blown away by the awesome power of the middle movement. A feeling akin to the climax of the first movt. of Shostakovich 7.
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 09, 2016, 06:00:34 AMI've had the recordings of the 1st and 3rd Symphonies for a few months, and I've just ordered a third disc, with Ritual, (K)ein Sommernachtstraum, Passacaglia and the Faust Cantata. I definitely want to get Nagasaki too; I heard it the other day and was blown away by the awesome power of the middle movement. A feeling akin to the climax of the first movt. of Shostakovich 7.
Fantastic! You'll love that
Faust Cantata recording. Do check out his massive ballet
Peer Gynt, cello concerti, the
Concerto for Piano and Strings, and the
Viola Concerto. These are all masterpieces. The
Piano Quintet is also very much worth your time as is his
Requiem. So much great stuff awaits you! :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 09, 2016, 06:05:50 AM
the Viola Concerto. ...
Terrific piece. 8)
I like Kronos Quartet's arrangement of the second movement from the Choir Concerto, titled:
"Collected Songs Where Every Verse Is Filled with Grief".
Is on this album:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronos_Quartet_Performs_Alfred_Schnittke:_The_Complete_String_Quartets
Quote from: Reckoner on October 10, 2016, 01:58:50 PM
Terrific piece. 8)
I like Kronos Quartet's arrangement of the second movement from the Choir Concerto, titled: "Collected Songs Where Every Verse Is Filled with Grief".
Is on this album:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronos_Quartet_Performs_Alfred_Schnittke:_The_Complete_String_Quartets
Certainly is. I like that arrangement as well. Beautiful.
As I have already written in the listening section of the forum, after many years I've been listening to Schnittke's music in a disorderly manner, having become aware that he is one of the composers that most interest me, I decided to listen to and deepen his entire production in chronological order.
One of the reasons for which I have been profoundly captured by this composer is the thrilling emotionality of his music 8).
I like the definition that is given by the French wikipedia:
"Très influencé par Gustav Mahler, Schnittke se veut spirituellement engagé. Il est l'auteur, entre autres, de douze concertos, dix symphonies, six concerti grossi, une soixantaine de musiques de film et une œuvre abondante de musique de chambre. Inclassable – il aime citer Anton Rubinstein : « pour les classiques, je suis un futuriste, pour les futuristes, je suis un réactionnaire » –, sachant créer le scandale comme l'enthousiasme, Schnittke suscite des avis partagés et souvent passionnés de la part des musicologues et critiques. Ses satires polystylistiques, qualifiées de « bonbons acides » par le critique américain Alex Ross, même s'ils présentent Alfred Schnittke sous l'image fausse d'un ironiste facile, sont une voie d'entrée efficace dans le courant dont, maître de l'ironie1, il se présente comme le principal initiateur en musique: le polystylisme1. Immanquablement politisée, la musique de Schnittke est donc vulnérable à une étude purement historico-politique. Reste que sa musique profondément expressionniste contribue, par sa force et une dramaturgie souvent violente, à faire de Schnittke une figure majeure de la musique de la fin du xxe siècle."
I think here is well defined.
He can be a controversial composer, but what it strikes is his huge dramatic strength.
In these days I'm listening to the symphony no.0 and "Nagasaki", works of apprenticeship.
Among the first works that I listened there was the First Concerto Grosso and "Peer Gynt", both two masterpieces.
The ballet is a work of unique intensity. For me it was a huge shock.
If we want to start from the end, here you can see a short video of the composer's funeral.
Moscow, Russia, 10 August 1998
http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/RUSSIA-MOSCOW-FUNERAL-OF-COMPOSER-ALFRED-SCHNITTKE/a01c8a4924bc3b205b1b8a3aa44977a3?# (http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/RUSSIA-MOSCOW-FUNERAL-OF-COMPOSER-ALFRED-SCHNITTKE/a01c8a4924bc3b205b1b8a3aa44977a3?#)
Another news, soon will be available a new book, Schnittke Studies, by Gavin Dixon.
https://www.routledge.com/Schnittke-Studies/Dixon/p/book/9781472471055 (https://www.routledge.com/Schnittke-Studies/Dixon/p/book/9781472471055)
But I would like to read another book, "Conversations with Schnittke" (Беседы с Альфредом Шнитке), by Alexander Ivashkin, so far only in Russian
:(
Quote from: ludwigii on October 10, 2016, 03:17:13 PM
If we want to start from the end, here you can see a short video of the composer's funeral.
Moscow, Russia, 10 August 1998
http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/RUSSIA-MOSCOW-FUNERAL-OF-COMPOSER-ALFRED-SCHNITTKE/a01c8a4924bc3b205b1b8a3aa44977a3?# (http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/RUSSIA-MOSCOW-FUNERAL-OF-COMPOSER-ALFRED-SCHNITTKE/a01c8a4924bc3b205b1b8a3aa44977a3?#)
Of course, I agree with what you've written. :) Also, thanks for this link. Fascinating to watch.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2016, 03:29:43 PM
Of course, I agree with what you've written. :) Also, thanks for this link. Fascinating to watch.
"this work hits the listener like a ton of bricks" !! (Mirror Image on Peer Gynt ) 8)
Other footages :
https://www.net-film.ru/en/film-9874/?search=qschnittke
(https://www.net-film.ru/en/film-9874/?search=qschnittke)
https://www.net-film.ru/en/film-56695/?search=qschnittke
(https://www.net-film.ru/en/film-56695/?search=qschnittke)
Quote from: ludwigii on October 10, 2016, 03:51:51 PM
"this work hits the listener like a ton of bricks" !! (Mirror Image on Peer Gynt ) 8)
Other footages :
https://www.net-film.ru/en/film-9874/?search=qschnittke
(https://www.net-film.ru/en/film-9874/?search=qschnittke)
https://www.net-film.ru/en/film-56695/?search=qschnittke
(https://www.net-film.ru/en/film-56695/?search=qschnittke)
Thanks so much for these links as well. I can't understand a word they're saying, but it's highly illuminating being able to hear and see Schnittke.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2016, 04:01:12 PM
Thanks so much for these links as well. I can't understand a word they're saying, but it's highly illuminating being able to hear and see Schnittke.
me too ;D
But as you rightly say it is a pleasure to see him.
On the site there is a brief description of the episodes, which helps us to understand something.
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 09, 2016, 06:00:34 AM
I've had the recordings of the 1st and 3rd Symphonies for a few months, and I've just ordered a third disc, with Ritual, (K)ein Sommernachtstraum, Passacaglia and the Faust Cantata. I definitely want to get Nagasaki too; I heard it the other day and was blown away by the awesome power of the middle movement. A feeling akin to the climax of the first movt. of Shostakovich 7.
That movement foreshadows the part of the crucifixion of Christ in the Fourth Symphony, the latter much much more frightening.
Nagasaki is an apprenticeship work, a mix of Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky and Carl Orff, it is not yet Schnittke, the real one.
Quote from: ludwigii on October 10, 2016, 04:16:45 PM
That movement foreshadows the part of the crucifixion of Christ in the Fourth Symphony, the latter much much more frightening.
Nagasaki is an apprenticeship work, a mix of Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky and Carl Orff, it is not yet Schnittke, the real one.
That's true. Much like his
Violin Concerto No. 1 isn't Schnittke yet.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2016, 04:21:48 PM
That's true. Much like his Violin Concerto No. 1 isn't Schnittke yet.
But the first violin concerto is a very good work, highly enjoyable, I recommend it. Especially in the interpretation of Mark Lubotsky (BIS), which I like very much more than Kremer. The only flaw of the BIS recording is technical, the low dynamic, but if you have a good amp ...
The first violin concerto for me is a half masterpiece. He was still looking himself, but is already a work of great quality.
Both Symphony no.0 that Nagasaki instead have many less merits, according to me. Only for fans.
Quote from: ludwigii on October 10, 2016, 05:03:10 PM
But the first violin concerto is a very good work, highly enjoyable, I recommend it. Especially in the interpretation of Mark Lubotsky (BIS), which I like very much more than Kremer. The only flaw of the BIS recording is technical, the low dynamic, but if you have a good amp ...
The first violin concerto for me is a half masterpiece. He was still looking himself, but is already a work of great quality.
Both Symphony no.0 that Nagasaki instead have many less merits, according to me. Only for fans.
Truth be told, I really don't like
any of Schnittke's violin concerti. I agree that
Symphony No. 0 and
Nagasaki are hardly representative of what the composer will become, but I actually like
Nagasaki.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2016, 05:10:41 PM
Truth be told, I really don't like any of Schnittke's violin concerti. I agree that Symphony No. 0 and Nagasaki are hardly representative of what the composer will become, but I actually like Nagasaki.
I think the fourth concerto comes off better in the recording of the premiere than it does in Kremer's later recording, with its unfortunate vocal rendition of the
cadenza visuale. But I would agree the violin concerti are not on the same level as, say, the viola or first cello concerto.
Quote from: edward on October 10, 2016, 05:41:04 PM
I think the fourth concerto comes off better in the recording of the premiere than it does in Kremer's later recording, with its unfortunate vocal rendition of the cadenza visuale. But I would agree the violin concerti are not on the same level as, say, the viola or first cello concerto.
I must listen to the premiere recording. On BIS, correct? If not, then please let me know which recording you're referring to.
I was listening to the First Vl concert and only now I realize that the theme of the third movement (that takes some cells of the main theme of the first movement) foreshadows the analogue of the Fourth concert. There are thematic similarities. Unbelievable :o
Quote from: ludwigii on October 10, 2016, 06:01:32 PM
I was listening to the First Vl concert and only now I realize that the theme of the third movement (that takes some cells of the main theme of the first movement) foreshadows the analogue of the Fourth concert. There are thematic similarities. Unbelievable :o
I must listen for this as well!
Quote from: edward on October 10, 2016, 05:41:04 PM
I think the fourth concerto comes off better in the recording of the premiere than it does in Kremer's later recording, with its unfortunate vocal rendition of the cadenza visuale. But I would agree the violin concerti are not on the same level as, say, the viola or first cello concerto.
On YT there is a more recent live performance : Vadim Gluzman / Schnittke Violin Concerto No.4
Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra
Hannu Lintu - conductor
Vadim Gluzman - violin
10.10.2014, Helsinki Music Centre
It seems very good.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2016, 05:52:50 PM
I must listen to the premiere recording. On BIS, correct? If not, then please let me know which recording you're referring to.
I'm actually talking about the Kremer/Rozhdestvensky live recording from 1990. I got it on a Melodiya
Musica non grata disc:
[asin]B000025460[/asin]
You can probably find quite a few other issues of it now, though, particularly if you're willing to go the download route.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on October 10, 2016, 06:40:50 PM
I love Schnittke's music, but I guess you would already guess that? :P
Excellent! What are some of your favorite works?
Listening to the Symphony No. 2 (St. Florian) for the first time. Once again, the sounds he conjures up from his vast orchestral palette are fabulous! Schnittke's the only composer I've come across that incorporates electric guitar as just another orchestral texture, without making it sound distinctly like rock music.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 23, 2017, 06:20:30 PM
Symphonies 1 &2
first three Concerto Grosso's
Concerto for piano and strings
Requiem
Peter Gynt
Choir Concerto
Psalms of repentance
String quartet no 3
The hymns
Story of an unknown actor
Life of an idiot
Agony
Variations
:)
The Hymns? ??? Please clarify as there's
Four Hymns for a chamber ensemble and
Three Sacred Hymns for chorus.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on March 23, 2017, 07:10:19 PM
Yes, I was purposefully vague about that because there are quite a few cool "Hymn" pieces :)
Ah, okay. You had me actually worried for a minute. :)
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 23, 2017, 12:05:34 PM
Schnittke's the only composer I've come across that incorporates electric guitar as just another orchestral texture, without making it sound distinctly like rock music.
I can think of other composers have included electric guitar in scores that are modernist and don't refer to rock music: Grisey in
Transitoires, Gubaidulina in
Zeitgestalten, Romitelli in several of his works. What really strikes me about Schnittke's orchestration is the use of a drum kit in the Concerto Grosso No. 2: that's a really jarring sonority even for someone used to the "noisy avant-garde".
Quote from: CRCulver on March 24, 2017, 06:29:41 AM
I can think of other composers have included electric guitar in scores that are modernist and don't refer to rock music: Grisey in Transitoires, Gubaidulina in Zeitgestalten, Romitelli in several of his works. What really strikes me about Schnittke's orchestration is the use of a drum kit in the Concerto Grosso No. 2: that's a really jarring sonority even for someone used to the "noisy avant-garde".
Lepo Sumera Symphony No. 4
Aaron Jay Kernis Colored Wheel
Great piece, unfortunately the Chandos recording is out of print
https://www.youtube.com/v/TKskTaPZ_rU
Youtube also has a BBC documentary from the early 90s
https://www.youtube.com/v/6sHnQKs8LUM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on April 20, 2017, 07:53:59 AM
Great piece, unfortunately the Chandos recording is out of print
https://www.youtube.com/v/TKskTaPZ_rU
Oh yes, that's a good one indeed.
Minor corrigenda 0:)
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on June 15, 2017, 04:45:06 PM
I've just imagined an analogy for the first Symphony:
If Zappa and Zorn had a baby in the apocalypse, supervised in a hospital insured by Charles Ives, and the Gynecologist Obstetrician is Penderecki ;)
But now I have an alternative to consider, if I find myself lazily reverting to a wild ride . . . .
8)
Giving the Second Symphony ("St. Florian") another go. I must admit, this one is taking me longer to warm to than the First and Third Symphonies (the only other two of Schnittke's I've heard). There just doesn't seem to be as much going on in No. 2. Each orchestral "commentary" on the choral parts seems to be the same, ie. a long slow buildup of sound.
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 30, 2017, 06:41:57 AM
Giving the Second Symphony ("St. Florian") another go. I must admit, this one is taking me longer to warm to than the First and Third Symphonies (the only other two of Schnittke's I've heard). There just doesn't seem to be as much going on in No. 2. Each orchestral "commentary" on the choral parts seems to be the same, ie. a long slow buildup of sound.
5 and 9 are my favorites, but the Concerto Grossi are the real gems IMO
Quote from: bwv 1080 on June 30, 2017, 07:37:59 AM
5 and 9 are my favorites, but the Concerto Grossi are the real gems IMO
Well, Symphony No. 5 is also Concerto Grosso No. 4.
There's tons of music by Schnittke for me to get stuck into over time. I'm loving what I've heard so far. In fact, I've just started listening to the awesome and bonkers Symphony No. 1.
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 30, 2017, 11:08:28 AM
Well, Symphony No. 5 is also Concerto Grosso No. 4.
There's tons of music by Schnittke for me to get stuck into over time. I'm loving what I've heard so far. In fact, I've just started listening to the awesome and bonkers Symphony No. 1.
Question. For those of you are fans of Schnittke as I would assume most reading this threat would be, what do you think of Kalevi Aho? I was listening to his No. 5 now and find is very much in the post Soviet/Pan European collage style like Schnittke's No. 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIRzu0lC4uI I also feel there are semi Shostakovitch quotes like at 24:00 really feels so much out of Shostakovitch No. 15 Adagio. I think these guys are cut from the same cloth. Also check out his Symphony No. 4. Very Russian by way of Finland.
Thoughts? In my mind, it is almost like Schnittke is still writing.
Quote from: relm1 on July 04, 2017, 04:08:34 PM
Question. For those of you are fans of Schnittke as I would assume most reading this threat would be, what do you think of Kalevi Aho? I was listening to his No. 5 now and find is very much in the post Soviet/Pan European collage style like Schnittke's No. 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIRzu0lC4uI I also feel there are semi Shostakovitch quotes like at 24:00 really feels so much out of Shostakovitch No. 15 Adagio. I think these guys are cut from the same cloth. Also check out his Symphony No. 4. Very Russian by way of Finland.
Thoughts? In my mind, it is almost like Schnittke is still writing.
He's definitely on my radar, so to speak. Love the epic scope of his 12th Symphony, written as spatial music, inspired by a mountain. And I watched the premiere of his 16th Symphony a while ago. The 8th Symphony, for organ and orchestra, is also on my wishlist.
Quote from: relm1 on July 04, 2017, 04:08:34 PM
Question. For those of you are fans of Schnittke as I would assume most reading this threat would be, what do you think of Kalevi Aho?
Aho and Schnittke were definitely writing in a similar spirit in the late 1970s and early-mid 1980s. However, Aho has stated that with the birth of his first child, he no longer felt able to write music of bleakness or despair, and thus from the early 1980s his music gradually drew away from that style capable of sudden threats or malevolent clashing jumbles of different epochs that so resembled Schnittke.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71oaiPtsSVL._SY355_.jpg) loving this today!
Quote from: milk on September 25, 2017, 11:41:47 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71oaiPtsSVL._SY355_.jpg) loving this today!
Classic!
Incredibly excited that I've ordered a copy of the ballet Peer Gynt. I'm really interested to hear this work, Schnittke's take on the full-length ballet.
Peer Gynt is a magnificent work, essential Schnittke.
Quote from: North Star on May 24, 2018, 11:52:41 AM
Peer Gynt is a magnificent work, essential Schnittke.
Agreed. Very interesting and engaging large scale work. There is some collage in this which you shouldn't fear with Schnittke.
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 24, 2018, 11:43:27 AM
Incredibly excited that I've ordered a copy of the ballet Peer Gynt. I'm really interested to hear this work, Schnittke's take on the full-length ballet.
Such an excellent work and, dare I say, right up there with Schnittke's other masterpieces like the
Requiem,
Concerto Grosso No. 1,
Piano Quintet, among others.
If you're interested, I created a thread about
Peer Gynt, but it didn't garner much attention (unfortunately):
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,25167.msg918925.html#msg918925
Listening to Peer Gynt this evening. Wow! Absolutely incredible music! The booklet for this recording (Royal Opera Stockholm Orchestra/Klas) is fantastic too, giving a blow-by-blow account of the on-stage action, which is what you want for an unfamiliar score.
Now to enjoy the rest of this massive Epilogue...
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 29, 2018, 11:37:33 AM
Listening to Peer Gynt this evening. Wow! Absolutely incredible music! The booklet for this recording (Royal Opera Stockholm Orchestra/Klas) is fantastic too, giving a blow-by-blow account of the on-stage action, which is what you want for an unfamiliar score.
Now to enjoy the rest of this massive Epilogue...
Great to hear you enjoyed the music. I've said for quite some time now that it's one of Schnittke's masterworks and I still feel this way years later.
Just posted this in Purchased thread, but finally got me a hard copy of the Faust Cantata, and another 2nd Concerto Grosso for my library. This also might be a candidate for craziest cover art!
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51TbHB2sZoL.jpg)
Nice, Greg! Now if someone could photoshop in Trump's ugly mug for the jigsaw-in-progress, that would be perfect . . . .
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 30, 2018, 04:49:09 AM
Just posted this in Purchased thread, but finally got me a hard copy of the Faust Cantata, and another 2nd Concerto Grosso for my library. This also might be a candidate for craziest cover art!
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51TbHB2sZoL.jpg)
I haven't heard this recording in ages.
Faust Cantata, of course, is one of my favorites from Schnittke. The best I can remember Rozhdestvensky does this music justice.
The bi-decennial of Schnittke's death was yesterday! How did I miss it? Any plans, GMG?
Quote from: schnittkease on August 04, 2018, 08:40:13 AM
The bi-decennial of Schnittke's death was yesterday! How did I miss it? Any plans, GMG?
Didn't have any, but I'll have to change that with a listen to his
Choir Concerto, easily my favorite work from Schnittke.
Quote from: schnittkease on January 13, 2019, 01:54:12 PM
I got this idea yesterday and can't get it out of my head: HIPs of Schnittke's concerti grossi. Anyone else thinks I should pitch this to BIS? ;D
That's possible, but HIP wouldn't actually be hip in Schnittke's case considering it's music created in our era. :) But, hey, this shouldn't stop you from pitching the idea to BIS.
Quote from: schnittkease on January 13, 2019, 07:14:04 PM
You're right -- it would be a Schnittkean satire on what it means to be "HIP." I may follow through with pitching the idea just to give BIS a good laugh.
Yeah, I, at one point, considered contacting BIS to ask them about recording more Latin American music, but I think instead of a laugh, I would receive an icy silence, so it's best to not waste my time. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 13, 2019, 07:17:17 PM
Yeah, I, at one point, considered contacting BIS to ask them about recording more Latin American music, but I think instead of a laugh, I would receive an icy silence, so it's best to not waste my time. :)
The suggestion that BIS re-record Schnittke would be daft (BIS went to great expense to record what it already has), but if you are interested in Robert von Bahr's plans, you don't have to be afraid to ask him. He's an approachable fellow.
A fascinating video of Schnittke's The Glass Harmonica -- coupled with both the score and film -- has been uploaded to YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/v/G2V-nCeDKoM
Quote from: schnittkease on February 23, 2019, 08:28:31 PM
A fascinating video of Schnittke's The Glass Harmonica -- coupled with both the score and film -- has been uploaded to YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/v/G2V-nCeDKoM
Thanks for sharing it. It scares me a bit, and that is a good symptom!
I've ordered my next Schnittke disc, this one featuring two early works, the Symphony No. 0 and the cantata Nagasaki, on BIS.
And I notice it's been that long since I posted in this thread...a couple of months back I bought the Chandos double set with the two Cello Concertos, two Cello Sonatas and Concerto Grosso No. 2. I'm particularly a big fan of the Cello Concertos, each of which, at over 40 minutes, are the longest cello concertos in my collection. The intensity of the works is staggering, how the weight of that huge symphony orchestra crushes our hero, the soloist.
If I remember correctly, Alexander Ivashkin plays on the Chandos double set. He's a formidable cellist that had a long and varied relationship with Schnittke, eventually becoming his biographer. Another must-hear performance of Cello Concerto No. 1 is Natalia Gutman's. The main takeaway is one of raw energy (sometimes at the expense of intonation, but no one's complaining; in fact, I think I like her interpretation more than Ivashkin's).
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 11, 2019, 11:47:03 AM
I've ordered my next Schnittke disc, this one featuring two early works, the Symphony No. 0 and the cantata Nagasaki, on BIS.
And I notice it's been that long since I posted in this thread...a couple of months back I bought the Chandos double set with the two Cello Concertos, two Cello Sonatas and Concerto Grosso No. 2. I'm particularly a big fan of the Cello Concertos, each of which, at over 40 minutes, are the longest cello concertos in my collection. The intensity of the works is staggering, how the weight of that huge symphony orchestra crushes our hero, the soloist.
I guess one could call me one of the resident Schnittkians, so I'll weigh in on this post (even though you never did ask me nor anyone else for that matter ;) ). The recording of
Symphony No. 0 and
Nagasaki is a curiosity, but that's all both works are unfortunately.
Nagasaki does have some great moments.
Symphony No. 0 could have very well been titled
Symphony Oh-No as far as I'm concerned as it's forgettable. The mature Schnittke or should I say when he started to find his compositional voice was when he began his foray into polystylism. So works like the
Piano Quintet,
Symphony No. 1,
Concerto Grosso No. 1,
Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra, among others are prime examples of this polystylism. After the experiments in polystylism, his style become much more bleak and introspective and he began composing works that have almost skeletons of musical dialogue and a prime example of this would be the third movement
Lento from his
Symphony No. 8. Anyway, I hope you enjoy that BIS recording, but, if you haven't already, I highly recommend checking out his ballets
Sketches,
Peer Gynt, and
Labyrinths, but also the
Viola Concerto, the SQs, the
String Trio, the
Faust Cantata,
Requiem, and
Hymns for chamber ensemble. It's good that you already acquired the
Cello Concertos and
Cello Sonatas. Unlike schnittkease, I thought very little of the Gutman performance of the
Cello Concerto No. 1 and still believe that Ivashkin's is the one to beat.
Oh I'm fully aware that these works are not going to sound anything like mature Schnittke. But I imagine they will still be in an idiom I personally enjoy.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2019, 06:35:09 PM
Anyway, I hope you enjoy that BIS recording, but, if you haven't already, I highly recommend checking out his ballets Sketches, Peer Gynt, and Labyrinths, but also the Viola Concerto, the SQs, the String Trio, the Faust Cantata, Requiem, and Hymns for chamber ensemble.
The works in bold I already own, all of them on BIS. Along with Symphonies 1-3, Ritual, Passacaglia for orchestra, (K)ein Sommernachtstraum, and the cello set I mentioned previously.
(https://media.takealot.com/covers_tsins/15206025/15206025-1-pdpxl.jpeg)
This is some really really fun music, even exhilarating at times. The way Schnittke manages bizarre elements with apparently inoffensive gestures is simply superb. The use of the harpsichord was especially noticeable. Schnittke did have his sardonic and fun when it comes to more carefree expressions. Very recommended.
Another new Schnittke disc arrived this morning, with Symphony No. 4 and the Requiem on BIS. Listening to the symphony now. I love the echoing use of piano, harpsichord and celesta at the beginning. Even though it's a smaller orchestra, it still feels varied enough that I don't get bored. I helped myself to work through the symphony by adding a piece of sticky paper to the booklet with the time at which each section of the symphony begins. The whole thing is in one track, lasting 41:13, but the back of the disc has the individual sections listed, along with the length of each section.
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 21, 2019, 08:19:05 AM
Another new Schnittke disc arrived this morning, with Symphony No. 4 and the Requiem on BIS. Listening to the symphony now. I love the echoing use of piano, harpsichord and celesta at the beginning. Even though it's a smaller orchestra, it still feels varied enough that I don't get bored. I helped myself to work through the symphony by adding a piece of sticky paper to the booklet with the time at which each section of the symphony begins. The whole thing is in one track, lasting 41:13, but the back of the disc has the individual sections listed, along with the length of each section.
Schnittke's 4th is a great work. It's so haunting and full of surprises. I'm not sure if you're aware of how Schnittke designed each of his symphonies, but the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th (even though it was left in draft form) relate to perhaps the emotional climate he found himself in whereas the 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th symphonies seem to have to do with his own spirituality. Someone here brought this to my attention and I've been thinking about this for quite some time.
Fascinating. I have Nos. 0-4 now, and I can see how 2 and 4 relate to his spirituality. Schnittke is definitely one of my favourite composers currently. Listening to Peer Gynt again last Wednesday evening was a magnificent experience yet again. I'm now contemplating how to approach the later symphonies, as they remain the last ones for me to collect.
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 21, 2019, 10:09:12 AM
Fascinating. I have Nos. 0-4 now, and I can see how 2 and 4 relate to his spirituality. Schnittke is definitely one of my favourite composers currently. Listening to Peer Gynt again last Wednesday evening was a magnificent experience yet again. I'm now contemplating how to approach the later symphonies, as they remain the last ones for me to collect.
The later symphonies are bleak in musical character. I'd consider his
Symphony No. 5 the last of the polystylistic ones as you will notice a drastic change by the time you reach
Symphony No. 6. I think of
Symphonies Nos. 6 & 7 as 'graveyard reveries'. They're tough, challenging but I think they do contain several inspired moments, but the eeriness of the music will certainly affect you. Of the later symphonies,
Symphony No. 8 is by far my favorite. It's
Lento section lasts around 17 minutes or so and it gives the listener an intimate look into his psyche at that time. The music is sparse, fragile, and it just seems to whisper by. I think you'll find much to dig into in these later symphonies.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 21, 2019, 08:42:57 AM
Schnittke's 4th is a great work. It's so haunting and full of surprises.
That's a good description.
FWIW, the overall impression I get from Schnittke is one of uncompromising honesty, more than any other composer I think (though Schumann hovers close), and a savage, broken mirror kind of beauty in the music.
He's only properly come on to my radar within the past decade or so, and when I first heard him I found it uncomfortable, it was almost *too* personal, something I've not really felt with any other (classical) composer. That didn't last for long though, and I find myself deeply drawn to his output and the spirit that glows behind it.
But exploring his oeuvre is still an ongoing process, with plenty of ground yet to cover, and it's very interesting to find this thread and read others' experiences.
Quote from: Iota on October 21, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
That's a good description.
FWIW, the overall impression I get from Schnittke is one of uncompromising honesty, more than any other composer I think (though Schumann hovers close), and a savage, broken mirror kind of beauty in the music.
He's only properly come on to my radar within the past decade or so, and when I first heard him I found it uncomfortable, it was almost *too* personal, something I've not really felt with any other (classical) composer. That didn't last for long though, and I find myself deeply drawn to his output and the spirit that glows behind it.
But exploring his oeuvre is still an ongoing process, with plenty of ground yet to cover, and it's very interesting to find this thread and read others' experiences.
It's always a good thing to read how someone is able to connect with a composer. Schnittke's music is quite personal and that's putting it mildly. As you wrote, he was so honest and honest up to the point where it's like I'm too scared to listen because it's giving me a private window into the man's experiences, failures, and heartbreaks. One thing that I do notice about his music even at it's gloomiest, there's still something positive to find in the music. It's like "I appreciate you being honest with me, Mr. Schnittke and I always enjoyed your confessionals no matter how twisted that may be." :) I like the broken mirror analogy --- quite apt in describing his music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 21, 2019, 11:22:21 AMOne thing that I do notice about his music even at it's gloomiest, there's still something positive to find in the music.
Oh indeed, when I listen to his music, I always feel better for having done so. :)
Quote from: Iota on October 21, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
He's only properly come on to my radar within the past decade or so, and when I first heard him I found it uncomfortable, it was almost *too* personal, something I've not really felt with any other (classical) composer. That didn't last for long though, and I find myself deeply drawn to his output and the spirit that glows behind it.
I love that description. Schnittke's music is some of the 20th-century's most powerful and it warms my heart to see how much attention it has been given since his death.
Quote from: schnittkease on October 21, 2019, 03:51:12 PM
I love that description. Schnittke's music is some of the 20th-century's most powerful and it warms my heart to see how much attention it has been given since his death.
Personally, I don't really see a lot of attention being given to him. Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, etc. are still spoken of with such high regard, but I truly believe that Schnittke should be a part of this group and that more concerts of his music should be given. I don't believe it'll happen as I feel that Schnittke's music has yet to catch up with many listeners. I think for many listeners they simply can't quite wrap their minds around this music (yet).
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 21, 2019, 04:27:50 PM
Personally, I don't really see a lot of attention being given to him. Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, etc. are still spoken of with such high regard, but I truly believe that Schnittke should be a part of this group and that more concerts of his music should be given. I don't believe it'll happen as I feel that Schnittke's music has yet to catch up with many listeners. I think for many listeners they simply can't quite wrap their minds around this music (yet).
I completely agree! I was talking relative to Schnittke's contemporaries, where only Ligeti truly stands on an equal footing—we should also be hearing more Nono, Berio, Xenakis, Stockhausen, Grisey, Crumb, etc. It's a sad situation us contemporary music fans find ourselves in...
Quote from: schnittkease on October 21, 2019, 07:37:05 PM
I completely agree! I was talking relative to Schnittke's contemporaries, where only Ligeti truly stands on an equal footing—we should also be hearing more Nono, Berio, Xenakis, Stockhausen, Grisey, Crumb, etc. It's a sad situation us contemporary music fans find ourselves in...
Nono? Yes... Stockhausen? No...I think he's one of the most overrated composers of the last 50 years. I know he influenced a lot of musicians and other composers, but I just can't stomach much of his music. I'd LOVE to see Xenakis'
Jonchaies performed on the same program as Stravinsky's
Le sacre du printemps. I hope you're reading this New York Philharmonic! One problem I think many listeners still have with post-WWII music is that so much of it is almost a complete break from what had come before. It was almost like some kind of shock to the system and they still haven't quite recovered. But I don't want to sound disparaging or even cynical, but the current state of classical music feels like you're going into a minefield. You might can get by a few yards unscathed, but sooner or later you'll lose a leg or perhaps even worse. :)
Quote from: schnittkease on October 21, 2019, 03:51:12 PM
I love that description. Schnittke's music is some of the 20th-century's most powerful and it warms my heart to see how much attention it has been given since his death.
Would like to read more of your thoughts on the music.
Partly prompted by, and in celebration of, your return, John, I've been re-acquainting myself with Schnittke. The Fourth Symphony was an early infatuation, and possibly the first of the symphonies to "hook" me. The use of the voices/chorus is masterly, and richly Russian.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 21, 2019, 10:37:32 AM
The later symphonies are bleak in musical character. I'd consider his Symphony No. 5 the last of the polystylistic ones as you will notice a drastic change by the time you reach Symphony No. 6. I think of Symphonies Nos. 6 & 7 as 'graveyard reveries'. They're tough, challenging but I think they do contain several inspired moments, but the eeriness of the music will certainly affect you. Of the later symphonies, Symphony No. 8 is by far my favorite. It's Lento section lasts around 17 minutes or so and it gives the listener an intimate look into his psyche at that time. The music is sparse, fragile, and it just seems to whisper by. I think you'll find much to dig into in these later symphonies.
The first work I know of that comes to mind when I think "sparse" is Malcolm Arnold's Symphony No. 9. It took a few listens for me to grasp it, and maybe I fully haven't yet, but I still find that symphony to be an immensely powerful statement of a fragile, frail man who gave his all in one last major utterance.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 22, 2019, 08:03:00 AM
Would like to read more of your thoughts on the music.
Here are my favorite Schnittke works (the usual suspects):
- Cello Concerto No. 1
- Cello Sonata No. 1
- Choir Concerto
- Concerto grosso No. 1
- Concerto grosso No. 2
- Concerto for Piano and Strings
- Peer Gynt
- Piano Quintet
- Requiem
- Seid Nüchtern und Wachtet (Faust Cantata)
- String Quartet No. 2
- String Quartet No. 3
- String Trio
- Symphony No. 1
- Symphony No. 2 "St. Florian"
- Symphony No. 5 (Concerto grosso No. 4)
- Symphony No. 8
- Viola Concerto
The Viola Concerto is a particularly mind-blowing work. Like much of Schnittke's output, it is intensely personal and deftly juxtaposes introspective interludes with macabre humor; this one and the First Cello Concerto are special as they were composed immediately after the first of five heart attacks that lead to his death in 1998. To me, Schnittke is the musical equivalent of staring into a kaleidoscope—disorienting to say the least, but everything undeniably makes "sense." Yes, it is dissonant and brash, but there is a timelessness to it that keeps me coming back for more.
Schnittke and Xenakis strike me as having a similar ethos, though the latter is usually more uncompromising and lets in less room for humor. The former uses less extended techniques than many of his peers but often controls timbre by specifying the amount of vibrato (if any) a line is to be played with. Then there are the choral works, which are a different beast altogether...
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 22, 2019, 08:08:30 AM
Partly prompted by, and in celebration of, your return, John, I've been re-acquainting myself with Schnittke. The Fourth Symphony was an early infatuation, and possibly the first of the symphonies to "hook" me. The use of the voices/chorus is masterly, and richly Russian.
That's certainly a favorite work of mine as well, Karl. Like you, I love the vocals and how he wrote the chorus sections. Really beautiful, but, in some strange yet alluring way it's completely Schnittke in musical makeup. It could have been written by no other composer.
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 22, 2019, 12:15:32 PM
The first work I know of that comes to mind when I think "sparse" is Malcolm Arnold's Symphony No. 9. It took a few listens for me to grasp it, and maybe I fully haven't yet, but I still find that symphony to be an immensely powerful statement of a fragile, frail man who gave his all in one last major utterance.
Yes, indeed. I loved Arnold's 9th upon first listen. I understood it immediately because of the musical language it was written was something I could relate to --- it wasn't out on left-field somewhere. This was music straight from the heart and it depicted him laying it all on the table for all to hear.
Quote from: schnittkease on October 22, 2019, 05:45:21 PM
Here are my favorite Schnittke works (the usual suspects):
- Cello Concerto No. 1
- Cello Sonata No. 1
- Choir Concerto
- Concerto grosso No. 1
- Concerto grosso No. 2
- Concerto for Piano and Strings
- Peer Gynt
- Piano Quintet
- Requiem
- Seid Nüchtern und Wachtet (Faust Cantata)
- String Quartet No. 2
- String Quartet No. 3
- String Trio
- Symphony No. 1
- Symphony No. 2 "St. Florian"
- Symphony No. 5 (Concerto grosso No. 4)
- Symphony No. 8
- Viola Concerto
The Viola Concerto is a particularly mind-blowing work. Like much of Schnittke's output, it is intensely personal and deftly juxtaposes introspective interludes with macabre humor; this one and the First Cello Concerto are special as they were composed immediately after the first of five heart attacks that lead to his death in 1998. To me, Schnittke is the musical equivalent of staring into a kaleidoscope—disorienting to say the least, but everything undeniably makes "sense." Yes, it is dissonant and brash, but there is a timelessness to it that keeps me coming back for more.
Schnittke and Xenakis strike me as having a similar ethos, though the latter is usually more uncompromising and lets in less room for humor. The former uses less extended techniques than many of his peers but often controls timbre by specifying the amount of vibrato (if any) a line is to be played with. Then there are the choral works, which are a different beast altogether...
Interesting, thanks. It is long enough since I listened to the
Viola Concerto, that it must be a priority for me in tomorrow's queue.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 22, 2019, 06:51:33 PM
Interesting, thanks. It is long enough since I listened to the Viola Concerto, that it must be a priority for me in tomorrow's queue.
The
Viola Concerto is wonderful. If you have the Bashmet/Rostropovich recording please give that one a listen.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 22, 2019, 07:13:24 PM
The Viola Concerto is wonderful. If you have the Bashmet/Rostropovich recording please give that one a listen.
That is surely the one.
Quote from: schnittkease on October 22, 2019, 05:45:21 PM
Here are my favorite Schnittke works (the usual suspects):
- Cello Concerto No. 1
- Cello Sonata No. 1
- Choir Concerto
- Concerto grosso No. 1
- Concerto grosso No. 2
- Concerto for Piano and Strings
- Peer Gynt
- Piano Quintet
- Requiem
- Seid Nüchtern und Wachtet (Faust Cantata)
- String Quartet No. 2
- String Quartet No. 3
- String Trio
- Symphony No. 1
- Symphony No. 2 "St. Florian"
- Symphony No. 5 (Concerto grosso No. 4)
- Symphony No. 8
- Viola Concerto
The Viola Concerto is a particularly mind-blowing work. Like much of Schnittke's output, it is intensely personal and deftly juxtaposes introspective interludes with macabre humor; this one and the First Cello Concerto are special as they were composed immediately after the first of five heart attacks that lead to his death in 1998. To me, Schnittke is the musical equivalent of staring into a kaleidoscope—disorienting to say the least, but everything undeniably makes "sense." Yes, it is dissonant and brash, but there is a timelessness to it that keeps me coming back for more.
Schnittke and Xenakis strike me as having a similar ethos, though the latter is usually more uncompromising and lets in less room for humor. The former uses less extended techniques than many of his peers but often controls timbre by specifying the amount of vibrato (if any) a line is to be played with. Then there are the choral works, which are a different beast altogether...
Excellent stuff, schnittkease! There are a number of familiar works on your list but I look forward to exploring some that aren't.
It seems to me (perhaps somewhat optimistically) that it may be within the gift of Schnittke's music to appeal to quite a wide public one day, at least maybe some of the more overtly fractured stuff.
Quite aside from it's ear-catching and distinctive qualities, people can sometimes take to the haunted underdog battling against a crazy world, even though the world be an internal one. They are perhaps grateful that someone can be so uncompromising, so emotionally bare-chested in a superficial, cosmetic world. And really when some of the results are as sensationally beautiful as this, there seems potential ... anyway, nice to pick up one's pipe and dream.
Schnittke remains a composer that is kind of elusive to me. For example, I think his third string quartet is a masterpiece, one of the greatest quartets of the 20th century. I enjoy his early piano concerto well enough. And I like his first cello concerto, but I find it a dark and difficult work. But beyond these couple of works, most of his creations absolutely mystify me. I'm wondering where would be a more accessible place to start. Any of the symphonies? He wrote a good bunch of them, no? Perhaps more of the string quartets...?
The reason I'm so curious is because I know that as soon as his music "clicks" for me, it will be game over, I'm going to be obsessed... ;D
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 26, 2019, 03:08:56 PM
Schnittke remains a composer that is kind of elusive to me. For example, I think his third string quartet is a masterpiece, one of the greatest quartets of the 20th century. I enjoy his early piano concerto well enough. And I like his first cello concerto, but I find it a dark and difficult work. But beyond these couple of works, most of his creations absolutely mystify me. I'm wondering where would be a more accessible place to start. Any of the symphonies? He wrote a good bunch of them, no? Perhaps more of the string quartets...?
The reason I'm so curious is because I know that as soon as his music "clicks" for me, it will be game over, I'm going to be obsessed... ;D
You find his Cello Concerto No. 1 dark and difficult? It's no darker or more difficult than any other 20th century cello concerto and is in fact transformative. The darkness becomes light so it has more in common with something like Mahler. Listen again but let it take you on a journey from start to finish. It is fantastic.
The 1st Cello Concerto is a masterpiece in my view. There is such struggle throughout that drains you, culminating in that unspeakably cathartic and afflicted ending. It gives me goosebumps everytime. The 2nd CC is also good and it is more challenging IMO.
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 26, 2019, 03:08:56 PM
Schnittke remains a composer that is kind of elusive to me. For example, I think his third string quartet is a masterpiece, one of the greatest quartets of the 20th century. I enjoy his early piano concerto well enough. And I like his first cello concerto, but I find it a dark and difficult work. But beyond these couple of works, most of his creations absolutely mystify me. I'm wondering where would be a more accessible place to start. Any of the symphonies? He wrote a good bunch of them, no? Perhaps more of the string quartets...?
The reason I'm so curious is because I know that as soon as his music "clicks" for me, it will be game over, I'm going to be obsessed... ;D
One of the most admirable qualities about Schnittke's music is the truthfulness of it. He doesn't cater to popular taste and he always expressed himself in a way that may be difficult to understand at first, but over time, I do believe a listener can grasp his style or I should say styles. ;) I wouldn't say his
Cello Concerto No. 1 is any more challenging than Lutoslawski's or even Barber's. There is a lot of heart in the work and, as another member pointed out, it's a transformative experience --- the music goes from one of the most doom-laded sound-worlds you can imagine to a light-filled landscape full of hope and dreams. The journey is, for me, one of immense pleasure, because it does feel like one has been to hell and back, but in the musical sense of course. If I were you I'd give the
Requiem a listen and then follow that with
Symphony No. 4. If you get nothing from either work, then take some time off from Schnittke and come back later. Sometimes a bit of time away can do wonders.
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 26, 2019, 03:08:56 PM
Any of the symphonies? He wrote a good bunch of them, no? Perhaps more of the string quartets...?
Most of Schnittke's symphonies are "dark and difficult," but you should try Nos. 1 and 4 (as recommended by MI). String Quartet No. 2 is my favorite of the four (that second movement!) though it's probably a bit less accessible than No. 3. The Piano Quintet, dedicated to his mother's memory, is a must-hear. It will be tough going, but persevere as that finale is one of the most cathartic moments in contemporary music. The Molinari Quintet IMO is the best with the quartets/quintet.
Try the film scores?
https://www.youtube.com/v/G2V-nCeDKoM
Quote from: Iota on October 26, 2019, 02:23:11 PM
It seems to me (perhaps somewhat optimistically) that it may be within the gift of Schnittke's music to appeal to quite a wide public one day, at least maybe some of the more overtly fractured stuff.
Quite aside from it's ear-catching and distinctive qualities, people can sometimes take to the haunted underdog battling against a crazy world, even though the world be an internal one. They are perhaps grateful that someone can be so uncompromising, so emotionally bare-chested in a superficial, cosmetic world. And really when some of the results are as sensationally beautiful as this, there seems potential ... anyway, nice to pick up one's pipe and dream.
Amen!
Quote from: relm1 on October 26, 2019, 04:37:52 PM
You find his Cello Concerto No. 1 dark and difficult? It's no darker or more difficult than any other 20th century cello concerto and is in fact transformative. The darkness becomes light so it has more in common with something like Mahler. Listen again but let it take you on a journey from start to finish. It is fantastic.
You don't think so? I found it a lot darker than, say, Lutoslawski's or Dutilleux's. (I'm not a big cello concerto guy, so I don't know the repertoire apart from a few big names.) But since you say all that with conviction, I'll make it a point to listen again today. I don't doubt that it's a very powerful work, but I found it challenging on first listen.
I'll make it a point to check out the works that have been mentioned to me: 4th symphony, Requiem, piano quintet, 2nd SQ, etc.
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 27, 2019, 11:52:21 AM
You don't think so? I found it a lot darker than, say, Lutoslawski's or Dutilleux's. (I'm not a big cello concerto guy, so I don't know the repertoire apart from a few big names.) But since you say all that with conviction, I'll make it a point to listen again today. I don't doubt that it's a very powerful work, but I found it challenging on first listen.
I'll make it a point to check out the works that have been mentioned to me: 4th symphony, Requiem, piano quintet, 2nd SQ, etc.
Once the
Fourth Symphony has fixed you with its glittering eye, so to speak, you will run, not walk to hear the
Choir Concerto. Just saying.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 26, 2019, 07:22:36 PM
One of the most admirable qualities about Schnittke's music is the truthfulness of it. He doesn't cater to popular taste and he always expressed himself in a way that may be difficult to understand at first, but over time, I do believe a listener can grasp his style or I should say styles. ;) I wouldn't say his Cello Concerto No. 1 is any more challenging than Lutoslawski's or even Barber's. There is a lot of heart in the work and, as another member pointed out, it's a transformative experience --- the music goes from one of the most doom-laded sound-worlds you can imagine to a light-filled landscape full of hope and dreams. The journey is, for me, one of immense pleasure, because it does feel like one has been to hell and back, but in the musical sense of course. If I were you I'd give the Requiem a listen and then follow that with Symphony No. 4. If you get nothing from either work, then take some time off from Schnittke and come back later. Sometimes a bit of time away can do wonders.
(removed image of the Okko Kamu/Stockholm Sinfonietta Schnittke 4th on BIS)
What say you, is BIS the way to go for Schnittke's symphonies...?
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 27, 2019, 12:29:50 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71mRUHe1wsL._SL1200_.jpg)
What say you, is BIS the way to go for Schnittke's symphonies...?
Some of them, not all of them. I'm not too thrilled with the performances of
Symphonies Nos. 6 & 7 as Polyansky on Chandos does a much better job, IMHO. I can't say anything good about the performance of
Symphony No. 8 either as I've always been under the spell of Rozhdestvensky in this symphony and consider it a bigger dose of reality than what Polyansky or Lu Jia (on BIS) bring to the musical table. I'm one of those people who just can't seem to get into
Symphony No. 1 as I consider it more gimmicky than anything of substance, but the Segerstam on BIS is the way to go in this symphony, IMHO. Segerstam is also very strong in
Symphony No. 2, "St. Florian", but I think Polyansky is equally as good.
Symphony No. 3 under Klas (BIS) hasn't been bettered.
Symphony No. 4 under Kamu (BIS) is my favorite of the three performances I've heard. I think Kamu conjures up a certain atmosphere in this symphony that's quite remarkable and almost makes me wish he'd had conducted all of the symphonies.
Concerto Grosso No. 4, "Symphony No. 5" is expertly conducted, again, by Klas, but Chailly recorded this symphony with the Royal Concertgebouw (on Decca) and it is also an outstanding performance. So, as you can read, there are some good things about the BIS series of symphonies (mostly the early symphonies), but the later ones failed to engage like the afore mentioned performances did. I hope this fragmented reply helps you in some way.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 27, 2019, 02:26:06 PM
Some of them, not all of them. I'm not too thrilled with the performances of Symphonies Nos. 6 & 7 as Polyansky on Chandos does a much better job, IMHO. I can't say anything good about the performance of Symphony No. 8 either as I've always been under the spell of Rozhdestvensky in this symphony and consider it a bigger dose of reality than what Polyansky or Lu Jia (on BIS) bring to the musical table. I'm one of those people who just can't seem to get into Symphony No. 1 as I consider it more gimmicky than anything of substance, but the Segerstam on BIS is the way to go in this symphony, IMHO. Segerstam is also very strong in Symphony No. 2, "St. Florian", but I think Polyansky is equally as good. Symphony No. 3 under Klas (BIS) hasn't been bettered. Symphony No. 4 under Kamu (BIS) is my favorite of the three performances I've heard. I think Kamu conjures up a certain atmosphere in this symphony that's quite remarkable and almost makes me wish he'd had conducted all of the symphonies. Concerto Grosso No. 4, "Symphony No. 5" is expertly conducted, again, by Klas, but Chailly recorded this symphony with the Royal Concertgebouw (on Decca) and it is also an outstanding performance. So, as you can read, there are some good things about the BIS series of symphonies (mostly the early symphonies), but the later ones failed to engage like the afore mentioned performances did. I hope this fragmented reply helps you in some way.
It helps. I listened to a bit of the Polyansky Schnittke 4th and then some of the Kamu, and thought the Kamu better. I ordered the CD since I saw one going for cheap on ebay. (I figure you can never go wrong with BIS...)
Well I listened to the cello concerto again. I was really, really impressed, what an amazing piece... but I still found it extremely dark. The final movement was beautiful, transformative, yes, but not exactly uplifting. Am I really alone in this...? Anyway, I'll be listening to it again at least once more this week. I was blown away.
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 27, 2019, 02:45:01 PM
It helps. I listened to a bit of the Polyansky Schnittke 4th and then some of the Kamu, and thought the Kamu better. I ordered the CD since I saw one going for cheap on ebay. (I figure you can never go wrong with BIS...)
Well I listened to the cello concerto again. I was really, really impressed, what an amazing piece... but I still found it extremely dark. The final movement was beautiful, transformative, yes, but not exactly uplifting. Am I really alone in this...? Anyway, I'll be listening to it again at least once more this week. I was blown away.
Very good to hear. That Kamu recording is fantastic and I like how it's paired with the
Requiem. Much of Schnittke's music is dark, so I don't really see this descriptor holding any kind of critical weight unless this particular element of his music turns you away in some way. Many of his critics, especially during his heyday, have said his music is nothing more than a reflection of the Soviet artistic environment he was a part of. I don't really understand that particular critique because I don't really hear this, what I do hear is a man trying to express himself in the most honest way he knows how. I think what people don't want to hear is a composer that actually has his fingertip on the pulse of our workaday lives. For me, his music is a reflection of how far we've come, but also how far we have to go as human beings.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 27, 2019, 02:26:06 PM
Some of them, not all of them. I'm not too thrilled with the performances of Symphonies Nos. 6 & 7 as Polyansky on Chandos does a much better job, IMHO. I can't say anything good about the performance of Symphony No. 8 either as I've always been under the spell of Rozhdestvensky in this symphony and consider it a bigger dose of reality than what Polyansky or Lu Jia (on BIS) bring to the musical table. I'm one of those people who just can't seem to get into Symphony No. 1 as I consider it more gimmicky than anything of substance, but the Segerstam on BIS is the way to go in this symphony, IMHO. Segerstam is also very strong in Symphony No. 2, "St. Florian", but I think Polyansky is equally as good. Symphony No. 3 under Klas (BIS) hasn't been bettered. Symphony No. 4 under Kamu (BIS) is my favorite of the three performances I've heard. I think Kamu conjures up a certain atmosphere in this symphony that's quite remarkable and almost makes me wish he'd had conducted all of the symphonies. Concerto Grosso No. 4, "Symphony No. 5" is expertly conducted, again, by Klas, but Chailly recorded this symphony with the Royal Concertgebouw (on Decca) and it is also an outstanding performance. So, as you can read, there are some good things about the BIS series of symphonies (mostly the early symphonies), but the later ones failed to engage like the afore mentioned performances did. I hope this fragmented reply helps you in some way.
I agree with most of this. As a rule of thumb, if Rozhdestvensky recorded it, it's probably definitive. This includes Symphony No. 1, which MI is
completely wrong about! :D Segerstam is too tame! It's a rollercoaster—brash, witty, depressing, profound (come to think of it, these four words pretty much sum up all of Schnittke's output). This is also Schnittke's first major work and serves as a prototype for what would become the polystylism synonymous with him (but it's a glorious prototype at that).
https://www.youtube.com/v/QoaTVgvxm-M
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 27, 2019, 02:45:01 PM
Well I listened to the cello concerto again. I was really, really impressed, what an amazing piece... but I still found it extremely dark. The final movement was beautiful, transformative, yes, but not exactly uplifting. Am I really alone in this...? Anyway, I'll be listening to it again at least once more this week. I was blown away.
It
is extremely dark, but those last two movements are otherworldly. Schnittke's late works are even more austere and do not give you an immediate "reward," so to speak. (Think of late Nono.) Some of these, like Symphony No. 8, are just as good as the earlier stuff.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 27, 2019, 04:40:49 PM
Many of his critics, especially during his heyday, have said his music is nothing more than a reflection of the Soviet artistic environment he was a part of. I don't really understand that particular critique because I don't really hear this, what I do hear is a man trying to express himself in the most honest way he knows how. I think what people don't want to hear is a composer that actually has his fingertip on the pulse of our workaday lives. For me, his music is a reflection of how far we've come, but also how far we have to go as human beings.
Nothing to add. Extremely well put.
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 27, 2019, 02:45:01 PM
It helps. I listened to a bit of the Polyansky Schnittke 4th and then some of the Kamu, and thought the Kamu better. I ordered the CD since I saw one going for cheap on ebay. (I figure you can never go wrong with BIS...)
Well I listened to the cello concerto again. I was really, really impressed, what an amazing piece... but I still found it extremely dark. The final movement was beautiful, transformative, yes, but not exactly uplifting. Am I really alone in this...? Anyway, I'll be listening to it again at least once more this week. I was blown away.
I don't absolutely say that
Kamu may not be yet better in the
Fourth, but the
Polyansky recording was the one which inspired my love for the
Fourth.
Schnittkease feels, I shall extrapolate, that the
Rozhdestvensky recording of
Fourth is the definitive one, I shan't contest that, either, but only note that
Polyansky was the choirmaster for the
Rozhdestvensky recording.
M
The fact is, I love all three recordings of the
Fourth. And I don't care who knows it. $:)
Quote from: schnittkease on October 27, 2019, 07:26:39 PM
I agree with most of this. As a rule of thumb, if Rozhdestvensky recorded it, it's probably definitive. This includes Symphony No. 1, which MI is completely wrong about! :D Segerstam is too tame! It's a rollercoaster—brash, witty, depressing, profound (come to think of it, these four words pretty much sum up all of Schnittke's output). This is also Schnittke's first major work and serves as a prototype for what would become the polystylism synonymous with him (but it's a glorious prototype at that).
https://www.youtube.com/v/QoaTVgvxm-M
It is extremely dark, but those last two movements are otherworldly. Schnittke's late works are even more austere and do not give you an immediate "reward," so to speak. (Think of late Nono.) Some of these, like Symphony No. 8, are just as good as the earlier stuff.
Nothing to add. Extremely well put.
On your recommendation (which, I presume is, indeed, a recommendation), I'm going to pull out my Rozhdestvensky recordings of Schnittke (or, at least, the ones I own) and give them a spin. I already love his recording of the 8th with the Royal Stockholm Philharmonic on Chandos. I should go a bit more easy on the 1st --- it does have some remarkable sonorities and is completely zany as you suggest.
Well, there are exceptions to this "Rozhdestvensky rule." Polyansky's No. 4 is great as well and I prefer Chailly to R. in No. 5.
Just my opinion!
I have been sucked in by the Concerto Grosso 3 at https://archive.org/details/AlfredSchnittke-concertoGrossot.3 - anyone know which recording it is? Sounds like a vinyl release. I've never been keen on the popular classics but love the small doses mixed in here and the way they turn into something completely different.
Having now read through this whole thread there are clearly many works to explore but I'm going to take it fairly slowly, have so far just added this
[asin]B000025WUA[/asin]
which was also highly enjoyable and the next CD is now on order -
[asin]B000025460[/asin]
I am loving how active this thread has been lately!
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 27, 2019, 02:45:01 PM
Well I listened to the cello concerto again. I was really, really impressed, what an amazing piece... but I still found it extremely dark. The final movement was beautiful, transformative, yes, but not exactly uplifting. Am I really alone in this...? Anyway, I'll be listening to it again at least once more this week. I was blown away.
Not all music is meant to be uplifting or relaxing or high-spirited. There can be incredible, profound and yes, transforming beauty in the darkness. One of the best things about music is how it can challenge you, make you perceive the world, and sometimes even yourself, in a new light.
Quote from: schnittkease on October 27, 2019, 11:14:04 PM
Well, there are exceptions to this "Rozhdestvensky rule." Polyansky's No. 4 is great as well and I prefer Chailly to R. in No. 5.
Just my opinion!
Fair enow.
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 28, 2019, 08:41:43 AM
I am loving how active this thread has been lately!
Me too! Always good to see a composer who I believe is worthy of the praise get more discussion time.
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 28, 2019, 08:41:43 AMNot all music is meant to be uplifting or relaxing or high-spirited. There can be incredible, profound and yes, transforming beauty in the darkness. One of the best things about music is how it can challenge you, make you perceive the world, and sometimes even yourself, in a new light.
This is true, but I think, first and foremost, a listener must be allured by the
sound of the music before they can truly appreciate it. Once that attraction has been established, it's just a question of listening with an open-mind.
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 28, 2019, 08:41:43 AM
I am loving how active this thread has been lately!
Not all music is meant to be uplifting or relaxing or high-spirited. There can be incredible, profound and yes, transforming beauty in the darkness. One of the best things about music is how it can challenge you, make you perceive the world, and sometimes even yourself, in a new light.
Couldn't agree more. The darker, the better.
If you read into my previous post that I was disappointed that the cello concerto was not uplifting, that is not at all what I meant. I was replying to another poster who seemed to indicate that he thought the music was uplifting and not dark at all.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71NT2VKg7DL._SL1065_.jpg)
This is a pretty damn fine CD I think. I really enjoy the Cello & Piano sonata that is included. Quite tempestuous, very serious and mysterious music. When this CD was released, there was only one cello concerto and I believe only one cello & piano sonata from Schnittke (there has since been another of those, right?) – I have no doubt in my mind that Schnittke was one of a small handful of major composers of his time and a creative genius. What an original mind... I am excited to explore further the 4th symphony and the requiem. I may have to pick up the Rozhdestvensky CD with the first symphony too, though I expect that will be a challenging work. I listened to the first couple of movements on the way to work today and was blown away.
The two long pieces on this clicked with me straight away so my exploration of Schnittke is not over yet 8).
[asin]B000025460[/asin]
I just got this in the mail:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71mRUHe1wsL._SL1200_.jpg)
... very excited to explore the music further. I'm curious, though, what is Schnittke's shortest, and most easily digestible symphony? Does such a thing exist? With Mahler, it took hearing his fourth symphony, one of the shortest and most lyrical of his works, to become a fan of his, though I now prefer his more sprawling, all-encompassing works. I suspect similar will occur with Schnittke who also wrote massive symphonies, albeit in a completely different idiom.
The cello concerto is amazing, by the way. Must be one of the best works in the repertoire for that instrument. Really enjoying it lately.
Quote from: 2dogs on October 31, 2019, 10:55:59 AM
The two long pieces on this clicked with me straight away so my exploration of Schnittke is not over yet 8).
[asin]B000025460[/asin]
Is one of those two the Fourth Violin Concerto? I have heard the Kremer/Eschenbach/COE version below, which is terrific (as are the other three).
[Asin]B00004Z44N[/asin]
--Bruce
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 31, 2019, 01:46:18 PM
I just got this in the mail:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71mRUHe1wsL._SL1200_.jpg)
... very excited to explore the music further. I'm curious, though, what is Schnittke's shortest, and most easily digestible symphony? Does such a thing exist? With Mahler, it took hearing his fourth symphony, one of the shortest and most lyrical of his works, to become a fan of his, though I now prefer his more sprawling, all-encompassing works. I suspect similar will occur with Schnittke who also wrote massive symphonies, albeit in a completely different idiom.
The cello concerto is amazing, by the way. Must be one of the best works in the repertoire for that instrument. Really enjoying it lately.
Schnittke's shortest symphony? Probably his 7th, but the 6th is pretty short as well. I really like Schnittke's 4th, 5th, and 8th symphonies, but, IMHO, I wouldn't say they're his 'best' works. The cycle of SQs, all of the
Concerti Grossi, the
Piano Quintet,
Peer Gynt, the
Requiem, both cello concerti, the
Viola Concerto Faust Cantata,
(K)ein Sommernachtstraum,
Ritual,
Four Hymns for chamber ensemble, the
Concerto for Piano and Strings, and the cello sonatas are my favorites from him.
Schnittke's shortest symphonies (Nos. 6, 7) are probably not the easiest to digest. Try No. 5 (Concerto grosso No. 4).
https://www.youtube.com/v/VkhaGNLxQLo
Quote from: Brewski on October 31, 2019, 01:48:14 PM
Is one of those two the Fourth Violin Concerto? I have heard the Kremer/Eschenbach/COE version below, which is terrific (as are the other three).
[Asin]B00004Z44N[/asin]
--Bruce
It is - Kremer, Rozhdestvensky, Moscow Conservatoire Students' Orchestra live 1990. I haven't heard any other to compare with and have only had the first listen, but it sounded pretty good to me.
Quote from: 2dogs on October 31, 2019, 08:57:45 PM
It is - Kremer, Rozhdestvensky, Moscow Conservatoire Students' Orchestra live 1990. I haven't heard any other to compare with and have only had the first listen, but it sounded pretty good to me.
Thanks! And as a fan of live recordings, I will try to hear this.
--Bruce
It's quite amusing how there's such a surge in interest in Schnittke the past week or so. This thread was quiet as a mouse for the longest time. I wonder if the darker months ahead have anything to do with it? Do people listen to Schnittke during the spring or summer? Just curious.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 01, 2019, 07:35:20 AM
It's quite amusing how there's such a surge in interest in Schnittke the past week or so. This thread was quiet as a mouse for the longest time. I wonder if the darker months ahead have anything to do with it? Do people listen to Schnittke during the spring or summer? Just curious.
Yep he's pure cold weather music. Sibelius too. I have been listening to him a lot lately as it's been cooling down.
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 01, 2019, 07:40:29 AM
Yep he's pure cold weather music. Sibelius too. I have been listening to him a lot lately as it's been cooling down.
I can listen to Sibelius any time. He's just that kind of composer. But, yes, there's a certain wintry quality to much of Sibelius' music that's undeniable, but I often wonder if it's just the listener adding their own imagery or does the sound of his music seem to naturally evoke the homeland of the composer? Perhaps this would be better suited for the Sibelius thread...
I was somehow certain that I had a recording of the Pf Quintet with Martha Argerich, and today, I am well pleased to find that I was correct!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 01, 2019, 11:02:29 AM
I was somehow certain that I had a recording of the Pf Quintet with Martha Argerich, and today, I am well pleased to find that I was correct!
Well, no, I was mistaken. The pianist for the
Schnittke is
Lilya Zilberstein. I am sure it will prove an excellent recording.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 01, 2019, 07:35:20 AM
It's quite amusing how there's such a surge in interest in Schnittke the past week or so. This thread was quiet as a mouse for the longest time. I wonder if the darker months ahead have anything to do with it? Do people listen to Schnittke during the spring or summer? Just curious.
Just the process of "chance" discovery for me but I'd listen all year round :).
Anyone else been listening to Schnittke's Requiem lately? Wow, what a piece. Probably my favorite 20th century Requiem now. Shout out to Mirror Image for the recommendation. The Credo is especially mind blowing...
Oh yes, I am getting into much Schnittke now.
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 25, 2019, 02:49:00 AM
Anyone else been listening to Schnittke's Requiem lately? Wow, what a piece. Probably my favorite 20th century Requiem now. Shout out to Mirror Image for the recommendation. The Credo is especially mind blowing...
Yes, the
Requiem is quite a marvelous piece. Have you heard the
Faust Cantata yet?
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 25, 2019, 08:11:58 AM
Yes, the Requiem is quite a marvelous piece. Have you heard the Faust Cantata yet?
No I have not. What's a good recording?
Curiously, I remember not liking the Requiem that much. Am I missing anything?
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 25, 2019, 02:24:59 PM
Curiously, I remember not liking the Requiem that much. Am I missing anything?
In my opinion, obviously, yes. ;D
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 25, 2019, 01:13:41 PM
No I have not. What's a good recording?
This one:
(https://img.discogs.com/UP-d-i_JiPrd_WAzAS4dTsYDAAk=/fit-in/600x597/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3327140-1325927327.jpeg.jpg)
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 25, 2019, 02:24:59 PM
Curiously, I remember not liking the Requiem that much. Am I missing anything?
It really depends on what you perceived to be wrong or not to your liking the last time you heard it?
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 25, 2019, 05:18:13 PM
This one:
(https://img.discogs.com/UP-d-i_JiPrd_WAzAS4dTsYDAAk=/fit-in/600x597/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3327140-1325927327.jpeg.jpg)
I really like this album, a good intro to Schnittke for those unfamiliar with his style. And of course Symphony No. 5/Concerto Grosso. Very strong works.
Quote from: relm1 on November 26, 2019, 06:11:20 AM
I really like this album, a good intro to Schnittke for those unfamiliar with his style. And of course Symphony No. 5/Concerto Grosso. Very strong works.
Yes, indeed, although
Symphony No. 5 (Concerto Grosso No. 4) isn't on this particular recording of course, but, yes, that symphony would make a fine introduction as well.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 25, 2019, 05:19:04 PM
It really depends on what you perceived to be wrong or not to your liking the last time you heard it?
IIRC it was too quiet for my taste. But to be honest, I prefer his instrumental works over the ones that include human voices.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 25, 2019, 02:24:59 PM
Curiously, I remember not liking the Requiem that much. Am I missing anything?
It didn't sing to me right away, I should give it another shot.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 26, 2019, 10:54:45 AM
IIRC it was too quiet for my taste. But to be honest, I prefer his instrumental works over the ones that include human voices.
The rock guitar and drum kit were too quiet for you, eh? ;) Maybe you just haven't heard the
right performance. For me, that would be Polyansky on Chandos.
I liked the Parkman on BIS a lot but I'd be curious to check out the Polyansky as well.
So the 5th symphony/4th CG is really worth checking out, eh? That may have to be the next one I track down...
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 26, 2019, 03:09:01 PM
I liked the Parkman on BIS a lot but I'd be curious to check out the Polyansky as well.
So the 5th symphony/4th CG is really worth checking out, eh? That may have to be the next one I track down...
The Polyansky had a lot more impact (if memory serves me correctly) and the purely Russian forces really brought in a whole other spiritual element that was lacking in the BIS recording.
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 26, 2019, 03:09:01 PM
I liked the Parkman on BIS a lot but I'd be curious to check out the Polyansky as well.
So the 5th symphony/4th CG is really worth checking out, eh? That may have to be the next one I track down...
I really loved the Rozhdestvensky no. 5 but I don't remember what version it was. I found this but the cover doesn't look familiar.
https://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-Gennady-Rozhdestvensky-Academic-Orchestra/dp/B00UUK1E50 (https://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-Gennady-Rozhdestvensky-Academic-Orchestra/dp/B00UUK1E50)
Quote from: relm1 on November 26, 2019, 04:47:17 PM
I really loved the Rozhdestvensky no. 5 but I don't remember what version it was. I found this but the cover doesn't look familiar.
https://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-Gennady-Rozhdestvensky-Academic-Orchestra/dp/B00UUK1E50 (https://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-Gennady-Rozhdestvensky-Academic-Orchestra/dp/B00UUK1E50)
Chailly also has a fine version with the RCO on Decca.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 26, 2019, 01:38:23 PM
The rock guitar and drum kit were too quiet for you, eh? ;) Maybe you just haven't heard the right performance. For me, that would be Polyansky on Chandos.
That is a proof I don't have strong memories of it! The Polyansky version sounds good to give it a spin.
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 26, 2019, 03:09:01 PM
So the 5th symphony/4th CG is really worth checking out, eh?
Absolutely!! Such a coruscating work.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 26, 2019, 06:41:43 PM
That is a proof I don't have strong memories of it! The Polyansky version sounds good to give it a spin.
Whenever you get around to it, I hope you enjoy it, Cesar. :) Would love to know your impressions whether they've changed or you still feel the same.
Oh hello again, Schnittke thread!
Ordered the ballet Sketches. Should hopefully be here tomorrow.
[Fast forward to yesterday's "tomorrow"]
Listening to Sketches. Goodness me, this is wonderful music! Once again, I'm in awe of Schnittke's orchestration.
Great to see more love for Sketches. An apparently inoffensive music with many bizarre touches. Schnittke's imagination amazes me.
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 26, 2019, 03:09:01 PM
So the 5th symphony/4th CG is really worth checking out, eh? That may have to be the next one I track down...
Yes! Another vote for both the piece itself, and this recording with Chailly and the Concertgebouw. Not only one of my favorite
Schnittke recordings, but one of my favorite recordings, period. During his time with the orchestra, Chailly did a few of the big 20th-century masterpieces (e.g.,
Berio Sinfonia,
Messiaen Turangalîla), and this is one of the best examples from that period.
[asin]B00000E4NN[/asin]
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on December 13, 2019, 09:04:14 AM
Great to see more love for Sketches. An apparently inoffensive music with many bizarre touches. Schnittke's imagination amazes me.
And this is a work I don't know at all. Glad to have it on the radar. 8)
--Bruce
When I'm considering what recording to get of a work, I try and plan it so that I repeat works as little as possible. Sometimes it's unavoidable, but if I'm able to work around it, all the better. I was initially going to get the BIS Symphony No. 5/CG4, but if I bought the Chailly version mentioned above, I'd get CG3 as well. And the BIS recording of Symphony No. 9 includes CG1, meaning I don't have to repeat getting CG2 (already claimed as part of the Ivashkin cello 2-fer) as with another recording I've seen of CG1.
Quote from: Maestro267 on December 13, 2019, 05:26:45 AM
[Fast forward to yesterday's "tomorrow"]
Listening to Sketches. Goodness me, this is wonderful music! Once again, I'm in awe of Schnittke's orchestration.
Sorry, meant to acknowledge your comments on Sketches. Though I haven't heard it yet, totally agree with you about his orchestration skills. In piece after piece, he came up with unique, arresting instrumental colors.
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on December 13, 2019, 09:24:01 AM
Yes! Another vote for both the piece itself, and this recording with Chailly and the Concertgebouw. Not only one of my favorite Schnittke recordings, but one of my favorite recordings, period. During his time with the orchestra, Chailly did a few of the big 20th-century masterpieces (e.g., Berio Sinfonia, Messiaen Turangalîla), and this is one of the best examples from that period.
[asin]B00000E4NN[/asin]
And this is a work I don't know at all. Glad to have it on the radar. 8)
--Bruce
That Decca disc is stunning, possibly the best Symphony No. 5 on recording.
You might like Sketches. It's good fun.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 26, 2019, 06:41:43 PM
That is a proof I don't have strong memories of it! The Polyansky version sounds good to give it a spin.
Did you give the Polyansky recording a spin yet, Cesar? I'd be interested to hear if it changed your perception of the Requiem. I'd be surprised if it didn't! ;)
Quote from: kyjo on December 14, 2019, 09:40:16 AM
Did you give the Polyansky recording a spin yet, Cesar? I'd be interested to hear if it changed your perception of the Requiem. I'd be surprised if it didn't! ;)
Not yet. I intend to do it these coming days.
Bumping for my next order of Schnittke discs, both from BIS:
Symphony No. 5/CG4 and Pianissimo
In Memoriam and Viola Concerto
I was initially going to wait for Chailly's recording of CGs 3 & 4 to become affordable, but the BIS has beaten it. And they've recorded CG3 so I can just get that without having to duplicate.
The aforementioned discs have arrived. Listening to the 5th Symphony right now. The third movement in particular is incredible! Some utterly enormous climaxes!
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 13, 2020, 04:44:50 AM
The aforementioned discs have arrived. Listening to the 5th Symphony right now. The third movement in particular is incredible! Some utterly enormous climaxes!
Did you get the Viola Concerto/In Memoriam too? I loved that disc very much.
I did, yes. I'm listening to In Memoriam right now. Admittedly I've not heard the original Piano Quintet yet.
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 13, 2020, 06:56:28 AM
I did, yes. I'm listening to In Memoriam right now. Admittedly I've not heard the original Piano Quintet yet.
Please rectify that ASAP. One of my favorite Schnittke works is that incredible
Piano Quintet.
I didn't expect that big organ chord in the third movement!
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 13, 2020, 07:12:44 AM
I didn't expect that big organ chord in the third movement!
And I've never heard that chord more jarring than in the BIS recording. I love this piece in its orchestral version. It's so dark and personal. The original quintet was introspective but the orchestral version (especially Lev Markiz) was grim and intense like none other I've heard.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on December 13, 2019, 09:04:14 AM
Great to see more love for Sketches. An apparently inoffensive music with many bizarre touches. Schnittke's imagination amazes me.
Sketches is such a fun work! Like you, I love the zaniness that Schnittke adds throughout the work.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 28, 2020, 05:06:35 PM
Sketches is such a fun work! Like you, I love the zaniness that Schnittke adds throughout the work.
Indeed. I loved it instantly when I stumbled upon it. It's like the music for a sinister circus featuring some disturbing clowns.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on May 28, 2020, 05:59:19 PM
Indeed. I loved it instantly when I stumbled upon it. It's like the music for a sinister circus featuring some disturbing clowns.
Ha! ;D Yes, indeed.
Next disc in my collection: Symphonies Nos. 6 & 7, continuing the BIS cycle. It'll be interesting to dive into his 1990s output. I think the latest orchestral work I have of his is the 2nd Cello Concerto from 1990.
Meantime, I'm currently listening to Symphony No. 4. I'm only really noticing now how prominent the piano is in this work. In fact, I almost think the pianist should be credited as a soloist.
Something I notice with Symphony No. 6 is that the sound space is a lot less filled than it is in a lot of the other works I've heard.
Quote from: Maestro267 on July 29, 2020, 05:01:13 AM
Something I notice with Symphony No. 6 is that the sound space is a lot less filled than it is in a lot of the other works I've heard.
Yes, the first five symphonies are in a very different sound world then the late symphonies. I think Schnittke might have had one of his bad strokes and been half paralyzed around this time so composing became considerably more difficult and that might explain the shift too.
Quote from: relm1 on July 29, 2020, 05:58:55 AM
Yes, the first five symphonies are in a very different sound world then the late symphonies. I think Schnittke might have had one of his bad strokes and been half paralyzed around this time so composing became considerably more difficult and that might explain the shift too.
If I remember the chronology correctly: the first four symphonies came before his first stroke, the 5th came between the first and second strokes; the 6th-8th came between the second and third strokes and the 9th was after the 3rd stroke.
Obviously the glaring stylistic change did come between the 5th and 6th symphonies, but I think there's a subtler stylistic change also present in the music that came after the first stroke.
The first stroke didn't immediately drive Schnittke into his bleak late soundworld. That is, remember that the moving fourth movement of the Cello Concerto No. 1 was written after the first stroke.
Quote from: CRCulver on August 01, 2020, 12:37:20 PM
The first stroke didn't immediately drive Schnittke into his bleak late soundworld. That is, remember that the moving fourth movement of the Cello Concerto No. 1 was written after the first stroke.
Absolutely, and I think
Peer Gynt also straddles the period around his first stroke, with the extraordinary Epilogue also coming after it.
However, though I can't quite figure it out, I think there's a subtle change in the music that was begun after his first stroke. Works like the second cello concerto,
Monologue, the fourth string quartet and the first piano sonata feel to me more constrained than those of the years leading up to his first stroke.
Happy to mark the 86th birthday of Alfred Schnittke, whose work has moved me for many years. Just found this riveting live version of his Concerto Grosso No. 1 (1977), with Gidon Kremer, Tatiana Grindenko, and Kremerata Baltica, recorded in Moscow in 2004.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE3xPdT5jx8
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on November 24, 2020, 07:25:56 AM
Happy to mark the 86th birthday of Alfred Schnittke, whose work has moved me for many years. Just found this riveting live version of his Concerto Grosso No. 1 (1977), with Gidon Kremer, Tatiana Grindenko, and Kremerata Baltica, recorded in Moscow in 2004.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE3xPdT5jx8
--Bruce
A fantastic work, Bruce! Happy Birthday, Mr. Schnittke --- I wish you were still with us.
I just finished listening to this whole disc. Fabulous music. Schnittke's orchestration skills and inventive ideas flow effortlessly in each suite. Some sections I loved were:
From Agony: Einleitung (it has a sense of inevitability that just thrilled me)
From My Past and Thoughts: Madonnen (this is sublime, it took me by surprise), Wind (stunning effects) and Cancan
From The End of St. Petersburg: III and IV
From The Master and Margarita: Voland; a fragment of Ravel's Bolero appears here, just that in an "evil" way.
(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/999796-2.jpg)
He is wonderful and his film music might be a great entry point for most people since it is so imaginative and virtuosic yet accessible.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on March 11, 2021, 01:40:27 PM
I just finished listening to this whole disc. Fabulous music. Schnittke's orchestration skills and inventive ideas flow effortlessly in each suite. Some sections I loved were:
From Agony: Einleitung (it has a sense of inevitability that just thrilled me)
From My Past and Thoughts: Madonnen (this is sublime, it took me by surprise), Wind (stunning effects) and Cancan
From The End of St. Petersburg: III and IV
From The Master and Margarita: Voland; a fragment of Ravel's Bolero appears here, just that in an "evil" way.
(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/999796-2.jpg)
Yeah, Schnittke's film music is hugely entertaining and full of suprises! Have you heard his score for
Rikki-Tikki-Tavi? It's absolutely delightful, with an infectious main theme and a thrilling section called
Menace and Rescue: https://youtu.be/LD29SEOh8E0
Quote from: kyjo on March 15, 2021, 07:06:33 PM
Yeah, Schnittke's film music is hugely entertaining and full of suprises! Have you heard his score for Rikki-Tikki-Tavi? It's absolutely delightful, with an infectious main theme and a thrilling section called Menace and Rescue: https://youtu.be/LD29SEOh8E0
That is a great score full of excitement, lush melodies, and vivid action. Great fun!
Quote from: kyjo on March 15, 2021, 07:06:33 PM
Yeah, Schnittke's film music is hugely entertaining and full of suprises! Have you heard his score for Rikki-Tikki-Tavi? It's absolutely delightful, with an infectious main theme and a thrilling section called Menace and Rescue: https://youtu.be/LD29SEOh8E0
These days I've been exploring his film music, so that work will come soon.
Can't get enough of Schnittke lately. The Viola Concerto, the Concerto for Piano & Strings, the second Concerto Grosso, the 4th Symphony, and the orchestral works Passacaglia, (K)ein Sommernachtstraum and Ritual have all been in rotation in recent weeks. I love everything I've heard from the composer, which is comparatively little. The BIS recordings are great; I'm collecting them one at a time, though I doubt I'll complete the series which has many entries (surely at least 20?)—but I also love the older, Soviet-era recordings when I can find them, such as the Rozhdestvensky/USSR Ministry of Culture SO recording of the Viola Concerto and CG No.2. What a brilliant mind.
Anyone else listening to Schnittke recently? What works?
Also must add this photo of Schnittke and Arvo Pärt which I thought was a cool find...:
(https://www.cmuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Arvo-P%C3%A4rt-and-Alfred-Schnittke-reenacting-their-high-school-senior-photos.-.jpg)
Edit: Just ordered the "Music for the Movies" disc mentioned upthread. It sounds great, excited to hear the rest of it.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 28, 2021, 02:55:00 AM
Can't get enough of Schnittke lately. The Viola Concerto, the Concerto for Piano & Strings, the second Concerto Grosso, the 4th Symphony, and the orchestral works Passacaglia, (K)ein Sommernachtstraum and Ritual have all been in rotation in recent weeks. I love everything I've heard from the composer, which is comparatively little. The BIS recordings are great; I'm collecting them one at a time, though I doubt I'll complete the series which has many entries (surely at least 20?)—but I also love the older, Soviet-era recordings when I can find them, such as the Rozhdestvensky/USSR Ministry of Culture SO recording of the Viola Concerto and CG No.2. What a brilliant mind.
Anyone else listening to Schnittke recently? What works?
Also must add this photo of Schnittke and Arvo Pärt which I thought was a cool find...:
(https://www.cmuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Arvo-P%C3%A4rt-and-Alfred-Schnittke-reenacting-their-high-school-senior-photos.-.jpg)
Edit: Just ordered the "Music for the Movies" disc mentioned upthread. It sounds great, excited to hear the rest of it.
Love this composer. Recently I listened to a new recording of his cello concerto no. 1 with Kapustin Concerto. A nice, vivid new recording. I've never listened to his later symphonies finding them a bit too sparse for me and I prefer his earlier and mid periods to the sparse late period. But perhaps a nudge is all I need to explore it.
I LOVE late period Schnittke --- withdrawn and bleak, but not without musical interest. I think Symphony No. 8 is a masterpiece, especially in the Rozhdestvensky performance on Chandos. The Lento in this symphony is devastating.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 28, 2021, 06:32:41 AM
I LOVE late period Schnittke --- withdrawn and bleak, but not without musical interest. I think Symphony No. 8 is a masterpiece, especially in the Rozhdestvensky performance on Chandos. The Lento in this symphony is devastating.
I'll have to try and find that recording. I like what I've heard of Rozhdestvensky in Schnittke, which is not much.
Any thoughts on his unfinished 9th symphony? Worth a listen, or no?
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 28, 2021, 04:14:40 PM
I'll have to try and find that recording. I like what I've heard of Rozhdestvensky in Schnittke, which is not much.
Any thoughts on his unfinished 9th symphony? Worth a listen, or no?
The 9th is an odd kettle of fish. I'm not really actually sure what to make of it. I do know that I'm not much of a fan as it didn't grip me like Schnittke's music usually does.
What do you think of Concerto for Choir?
Quote from: relm1 on June 29, 2021, 06:16:39 AM
What do you think of Concerto for Choir?
Very nice, beautiful, and inscribing itself more into a somewhat conservative tradition, being much less edgy than a lot of this composer's works. The Melodiya Polyansky/Ministry of Culture Choir recording is glorious, whereas I find Windekilde/Hymnia Choir on the Classico label rather disappointing, and definitely less Russian-sounding.
Quote from: relm1 on June 29, 2021, 06:16:39 AM
What do you think of Concerto for Choir?
I find it beautiful, but a cappella choral music is one of my least favorite genres.
Quote from: MusicTurner on June 29, 2021, 06:25:57 AM
Very nice, beautiful, and inscribing itself more into a somewhat conservative tradition, being much less edgy than a lot of this composer's works. The Melodiya Polyansky/Ministry of Culture Choir recording is glorious, whereas I find Windekilde/Hymnia Choir on the Classico label rather disappointing, and definitely less Russian-sounding.
+1 for the Polyansky. The more recent recordings by the Estonians on Bis and MDR on Geniun have given the
Choir Concerto a much needed boost on record. Although, like their traversals of Rachmaninov's
All-Night Vigil and
Liturgy, neither are particularly 'Russian sounding'.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 29, 2021, 06:29:20 AM
I find it beautiful, but a cappella choral music is one of my least favorite genres.
A bit off topic...
I am a choral lover, but I can't stand chorus with piano. So often, the piano is mere accompaniment, which is why I tend towards symphonic choral music. Composers, the ones I appreciate anyways, rarely relegate an orchestra to mere background.
Occasionally someone will write for the piano as an equal entity to the chorus, Schubert & Brahms could, for example, but I find it rare today. I also like choral leaders who adapt a mundane piano part to harp or other instruments for variety.
Quote from: VonStupp on June 29, 2021, 07:15:54 AM
A bit off topic...
I am a choral lover, but I can't stand chorus with piano. So often, the piano is mere accompaniment, which is why I tend towards symphonic choral music. Composers, the ones I appreciate anyways, rarely relegate an orchestra to mere background.
Occasionally someone will write for the piano as an equal entity to the chorus, Schubert & Brahms could, for example, but I find it rare today. I also like choral leaders who adapt a mundane piano part to harp or other instruments for variety.
Well, in choral music to have a piano accompaniment doesn't make much sense in the overall texture of the music. Of course, there are some exceptions, but generally, I prefer choral music with either a chamber ensemble or large orchestra.
Anyone else know the Beethoven Quartet's recording of the 2nd quartet, on this Vox twofer?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81KCvXOwlvL._SL1404_.jpg)
I'd been relistening to this and it's one of those rare recordings that seems almost definitive to me: the intensity level is astonishing, and the closing bars are devastatingly bleak.
Quote from: not edward on August 02, 2021, 01:11:50 PM
Anyone else know the Beethoven Quartet's recording of the 2nd quartet, on this Vox twofer?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81KCvXOwlvL._SL1404_.jpg)
I'd been relistening to this and it's one of those rare recordings that seems almost definitive to me: the intensity level is astonishing, and the closing bars are devastatingly bleak.
I LOVE that particular set, not edward. The performance of the 2nd SQ from the Beethoven Quartet is blistering and, yes, to my ears, it is
the performance to beat.
Piano accompanying a choir feels more like a rehearsal rather than an actual Performance.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 28, 2021, 02:55:00 AM
Can't get enough of Schnittke lately. The Viola Concerto, the Concerto for Piano & Strings, the second Concerto Grosso, the 4th Symphony, and the orchestral works Passacaglia, (K)ein Sommernachtstraum and Ritual have all been in rotation in recent weeks.
All excellent works. I haven't listened to Schnittke as much in recent months, although this revival is making me think again as I think I'm starting to revisit classical stuff again.
Are there any commercial recordings of the Double Concerto for Oboe, Harp and Strings, other than the one on BIS? This piece rarely gets talked about compared to the composer's other concertos, but it is a strange piece that doesn't really sound like Schnittke, either.
Quote from: CRCulver on August 11, 2021, 02:03:08 AM
Are there any commercial recordings of the Double Concerto for Oboe, Harp and Strings, other than the one on BIS? This piece rarely gets talked about compared to the composer's other concertos, but it is a strange piece that doesn't really sound like Schnittke, either.
The BIS recording is the only one I'm aware of unfortunately. It seems Schnittke's not getting much love from record labels these days with the exception of a few recordings. There hasn't been any major recording projects since the BIS and Chandos series from many years ago.
Quote from: not edward on August 02, 2021, 01:11:50 PM
Anyone else know the Beethoven Quartet's recording of the 2nd quartet, on this Vox twofer?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81KCvXOwlvL._SL1404_.jpg)
I'd been relistening to this and it's one of those rare recordings that seems almost definitive to me: the intensity level is astonishing, and the closing bars are devastatingly bleak.
I have it too, and its a recommendable twofer also due to the other composer's works, basically getting beautiful performances.
Quote from: MusicTurner on August 11, 2021, 10:18:03 AM
I have it too, and its a recommendable twofer also due to the other composer's works, basically getting beautiful performances.
I would really like to listen to that rendition of the 2nd Quartet. What a darkly visceral tour de force it is.
Quote from: snyprrr on September 14, 2015, 08:38:43 AM
String Quartet No.4
One can surely not deny that the Alban Berg Quartet bring refinement and sophistication, and their 'live' performance of Schnittke's last SQ brings out any and all "Old World" feelings that this most inward of Schnittke scores presents. I hadn't really payed attention much to the opening movement, apparently, because this time I heard all the micro-tonal ennui that caught my ear. It seems Schnittke was trying to perfect the effect of "nausea", and here one can feel the shifting moods of angst and despair very well.
This is a long piece, and meaty and weighty, and seems to me to be DSCH's 18th SQ,... I believe Schnittke set out to make a DSCH SQ, and that this is what we got. I certainly will continue with this piece as an appendage of DSCH's legacy.
I'm going to call it a Masterpiece of 'Gotterdammerung' Music, the last gasp of 'Ultra-Late Romanticism' before the final flickering out (snuffing out?) of the light by the forces of darkness. How much more "towards the graveyard" can one go in music of such profound blackness? Sure, we could have special-effects of graveyard sounds, but here Schnittke sticks strictly to emotional states,- "human" feelings as opposed to "macabre".
I profer that there is no piece of Schnittke more representative of his deepest personal statement than this piece, and it is not the most easygoing endeavor to get to the end- but it stands as a huge monument, a gravestone, to what will never be again.
I just popped for the Bashmet/TCA Viola Concerto. I may actually not ever have heard this, being I'm totally getting it confused with Penderecki's of the same era. But, everyone says it's their favorite piece, so, I look forward with expectation.
The only items left of Schnittke's that I'm interested in would be the Symphonies 3-4, which recordings should I go for?
Anyone else got anything to say about the 4th quartet?
Quote from: Mandryka on December 08, 2021, 11:31:00 AM
Anyone else got anything to say about the 4th quartet?
Until just now, I had never heard it, and am listening to Quatuor Molinari's version. So far, gorgeous. Also very much reflects the somber tone of his final years. These comments by Mark Sealey seem pretty apt:
"The Molinari players have a majestic command of Schnittke's use of strings, his tortured melodic structure and sense of imminent doom. Without overplaying the place of the fourth quartet as a summation of what he had previously written, they nevertheless make a very compelling case for this work, full of pity and loss, as typifying the best of Schnittke."
http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/a/atm22634a.php
--Bruce
Schnittke's music seems to make more sense when it gets cold out and the days get shorter. Currently listening with rapt attention to the 4th symphony.
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 09, 2021, 02:43:04 PM
Schnittke's music seems to make more sense when it gets cold out and the days get shorter. Currently listening with rapt attention to the 4th symphony.
Love that comment.
So PS, which version of the 4th is enthralling you? I don't know the piece, and would like to.
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on December 09, 2021, 02:47:28 PM
Love that comment.
So PS, which version of the 4th is enthralling you? I don't know the piece, and would like to.
--Bruce
Whoah...??? Really? I'd give a listen to the Polyansky performance on Chandos, Bruce. It's magnificent.
Quote from: Brewski on December 09, 2021, 02:47:28 PM
Love that comment.
So PS, which version of the 4th is enthralling you? I don't know the piece, and would like to.
--Bruce
Okko Kamu and the Stockholm Sinfonietta on BIS. It's the only one I know, but it's a good one.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 09, 2021, 03:51:09 PM
Whoah...??? Really? I'd give a listen to the Polyansky performance on Chandos, Bruce. It's magnificent.
Thanks, I will check that out. I'm more familiar with Schnittke's chamber music and the concertos -- the symphonies, not as much. Though I treasure a live performance of his bleak Eighth a few years back, with the Juilliard Orchestra.
Wow, just found a photo from the performance, from 2014, with conductor Anne Manson.
https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/the-juilliard-orchestra-performing-alfred-schnittkes-news-photo/467762105
--Bruce
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 09, 2021, 05:17:37 PM
Okko Kamu and the Stockholm Sinfonietta on BIS. It's the only one I know, but it's a good one.
Oh cool, thank you! I know some of the BIS series, but not all. That cycle was probably the first full plunge into Schnittke for many of us -- certainly part of my introduction to his work.
Appreciate your weighing in, and will try to report back with impressions.
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on December 09, 2021, 05:19:26 PM
Thanks, I will check that out. I'm more familiar with Schnittke's chamber music and the concertos -- the symphonies, not as much. Though I treasure a live performance of his bleak Eighth a few years back, with the Juilliard Orchestra.
Wow, just found a photo from the performance, from 2014, with conductor Anne Manson.
https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/the-juilliard-orchestra-performing-alfred-schnittkes-news-photo/467762105
--Bruce
You're welcome. The 3rd, 4th, 5th and 8th are my favorites of his symphonies.
Quote from: Brewski on December 09, 2021, 08:41:54 AM
Until just now, I had never heard it, and am listening to Quatuor Molinari's version. So far, gorgeous. Also very much reflects the somber tone of his final years. These comments by Mark Sealey seem pretty apt:
"The Molinari players have a majestic command of Schnittke's use of strings, his tortured melodic structure and sense of imminent doom. Without overplaying the place of the fourth quartet as a summation of what he had previously written, they nevertheless make a very compelling case for this work, full of pity and loss, as typifying the best of Schnittke."
http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/a/atm22634a.php
--Bruce
I've decided it's not for me at the moment, this music! Though I would say that I thought Snyprr was right to praise the ABQ in the 4th quartet.
Quote from: Mandryka on December 10, 2021, 12:19:08 PM
I've decided it's not for me at the moment, this music! Though I would say that I thought Snyprr was right to praise the ABQ in the 4th quartet.
At least after one hearing, I think it's slightly grueling, and shows signs of the composer's grimmest thoughts. So no, likely not for Sunday morning coffee with birds outside. Will likely give the Alban Berg ensemble a try at some point.
PS, Kronos were my introduction to the first three quartets, which they performed in a cycle of three concerts with one on each (i.e., before the 4th was written). Came away in awe, and then down the Schnittke rabbit hole we went. 0:)
--Bruce
Listened to Quartet No. 4 yesterday. Definitely hear the bleakness of late Schnittke in it.
Fans of Schnittke, Daniil Trifonov will be the pianist in the Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra, performed live in April and available for a few weeks in May as a stream.
Streaming May 10–31 (from live concert in April 2022)
Orchestre symphonique de Montréal
Rafael Payare, OSM Music Director Designate
Dukas: La Péri
Schnittke: Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra (with Daniil Trifonov, piano)
Prokofiev: Piano Concerto No. 1 (with Daniil Trifonov, piano)
Debussy: La mer
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on February 10, 2022, 09:52:42 AM
Fans of Schnittke, Daniil Trifonov will be the pianist in the Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra, performed live in April and available for a few weeks in May as a stream.
Streaming May 10–31 (from live concert in April 2022)
Orchestre symphonique de Montréal
Rafael Payare, OSM Music Director Designate
Dukas: La Péri
Schnittke: Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra (with Daniil Trifonov, piano)
Prokofiev: Piano Concerto No. 1 (with Daniil Trifonov, piano)
Debussy: La mer
--Bruce
Nice!
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61HJJlCGTgL._SL1063_.jpg)
Is there anything more freakingly bizarre and insane than Quasi una Sonata? I don't have recollections of having listened to this piece before. Simply astonishing in its disruptive nature, what a piece. There are elements that bring Lutoslawski and Pettersson to mind.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on June 24, 2022, 09:17:20 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61HJJlCGTgL._SL1063_.jpg)
Is there anything more freakingly bizarre and insane than Quasi una Sonata? I don't have recollections of having listened to this piece before. Simply astonishing in its disruptive nature, what a piece. There are elements that bring Lutoslawski and Pettersson to mind.
Yes, Schnittke's
Peer Gynt,
Faust Cantata and
(K)ein Sommernachtstraum come pretty close. :)
Agreed about Quasi una sonata, it's a marvelous work; it shows thrilling contrasts between quiet, yet tense passages and other ones so strident, dissonant and fidgety, especially for the use of whirling, haunting glissando of the strings, that create an absolutely mesmerizing atmosphere. The version for solo violin and piano is very beautiful too, the piano and its expressive possibilities greatly replace the chamber orchestra.
(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music/v4/7a/d4/9c/7ad49c4a-206a-c320-a5df-dda323dce533/8594029810549.jpg/1200x1200bf-60.jpg)
Very impressed by the 4th quartet here, Kapralova. Live by the looks at it, lean sound.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 24, 2022, 01:30:05 PM
(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music/v4/7a/d4/9c/7ad49c4a-206a-c320-a5df-dda323dce533/8594029810549.jpg/1200x1200bf-60.jpg)
Very impressed by the 4th quartet here, Kapralova. Live by the looks at it, lean sound.
Wow, this looks very tasty. And I don't know this group. Always eager to learn of new, excellent string quartets, since there are so many these days.
-Bruce
Quote from: Mandryka on October 24, 2022, 01:30:05 PM
(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music/v4/7a/d4/9c/7ad49c4a-206a-c320-a5df-dda323dce533/8594029810549.jpg/1200x1200bf-60.jpg)
Very impressed by the 4th quartet here, Kapralova. Live by the looks at it, lean sound.
Wow! What a blast from the past. I was at that concert where they played quartets 2 and 4 - Prague Spring Festival, 2002. It took place in a big church, if I recall correctly.
I'm looking for more small scale (not symphonic) music in the spirit of the second violin sonata. Any suggestions?
I cannot answer for any similarity to the Sonata, but:
The first piece which came to mind was:
Quote from: Mandryka on July 26, 2023, 09:40:52 AMI'm looking for more small scale (not symphonic) music in the spirit of the second violin sonata. Any suggestions?
Do you know this one?
Quote from: BWV 1080 on July 26, 2023, 12:44:44 PMDo you know this one?
Thanks. There's huge variety in Schnittke's music! Anything good to read to get a handle on what's going on?
Quote from: Karl Henning on July 26, 2023, 10:07:28 AMThe first piece which came to mind was:
This is interesting music at the start - I don't like it when it becomes pastiche, but that's just me.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 26, 2023, 07:31:56 PMThanks. There's huge variety in Schnittke's music! Anything good to read to get a handle on what's going on?
Dont know too much about it- only one recording that I am aware of and have not seen anything written about it
Quote from: Mandryka on July 26, 2023, 09:40:52 AMI'm looking for more small scale (not symphonic) music in the spirit of the second violin sonata. Any suggestions?
There's a recording like this. I'm not crazy about the violinist, and I actively dislike what the pianist does with the music. If you listen to it, it would be interesting to know your opinion. I'm not likely to make my own.
(https://static.universal-music.de/asset_new/507927/195/view/Schnittke--Works-for-Violin-and-Piano---Daniel-Hope--Alexey-Botvinov.jpg)
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 26, 2023, 09:10:40 PMThere's a recording like this. I'm not crazy about the violinist, and I actively dislike what the pianist does with the music. If you listen to it, it would be interesting to know your opinion. I'm not likely to make my own.
(https://static.universal-music.de/asset_new/507927/195/view/Schnittke--Works-for-Violin-and-Piano---Daniel-Hope--Alexey-Botvinov.jpg)
Thw one that has caught my attention most in the second violin sonata is with Roland Pontinen and Ulf Wallin.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 24, 2022, 01:30:05 PM(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music/v4/7a/d4/9c/7ad49c4a-206a-c320-a5df-dda323dce533/8594029810549.jpg/1200x1200bf-60.jpg)
Very impressed by the 4th quartet here, Kapralova. Live by the looks at it, lean sound.
And an exceptional performance of the first string quartet here too (the first quartet was written at the same time as the second violin sonata, hence my interest!)
Quote from: Joaquimhock on December 07, 2011, 12:25:01 AMSegerstam's recording of Schnittke's 1st is awfull. A real mess. This work is crazy, I agree, it's a very bizarre pudding of everything, but it's also a very deep and poetic work. To understand this you need to listen to Rojdestvenski's recording for Chandos. By the way, according to Schnittke's friend and biographer Alexander Ivashkin, many of the recordings made by BIS during the 90s were considered as complete crap by Schnittke himself.
I found this while looking for comments about Alexander Ivashkin's book, which I may buy. Does anyone have a view on how useful it is?
That opinion about Segerstam's Schnittke 1 and BIS's recordings in general (posted in 2011 so why the hell is it being dragged out now?) is so phenomenally wrong it hurts.
Quote from: Maestro267 on July 27, 2023, 06:17:12 AMThat opinion about Segerstam's Schnittke 1 and BIS's recordings in general (posted in 2011 so why the hell is it being dragged out now?) is so phenomenally wrong it hurts.
With works that have very thin performance and recording history, it is impossible to know if existing recordings are good, and contradictory opinions will often appear. I've noticed a similar phenomena with Pettersson. I guess I should try to seek out alternates. (I have the BIS symphony series in a box set, I guess I can find the alternates from Chandos and others streaming. There are also the Chailly recordings to consider.)
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on June 24, 2022, 09:17:20 PM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61HJJlCGTgL._SL1063_.jpg)
Is there anything more freakingly bizarre and insane than Quasi una Sonata?
Yes there is. The serenade for violin, piano, double bass, clarinet and percussion.
(But be warned, I don't know the orchestrated version in that recording, only the violin sonata.)
Quote from: Maestro267 on July 27, 2023, 06:17:12 AMThat opinion about Segerstam's Schnittke 1 and BIS's recordings in general (posted in 2011 so why the hell is it being dragged out now?) is so phenomenally wrong it hurts.
That opinion is based on the actual fact that the composer himself was dissatisfied with some BIS recordings, and so it is hard to call it "phenomenally wrong" instead of a mere matter of taste.
I recently read this claim repeated in Dubinets'
Russian Composers Abroad, or at least I think so – she does not explicitly name BIS.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on June 24, 2022, 09:17:20 PMIs there anything more freakingly bizarre and insane than Quasi una Sonata?
Hadn't heard it in an age, thanks for the prompt.
Quote from: Karl Henning on July 27, 2023, 07:14:58 AMHadn't heard it in an age, thanks for the prompt.
I heard it (the violin sonata) for the first time about three days ago and honestly, I nearly fell out of my chair.
Damn, I should hear Schnittke's violin sonatas.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 26, 2023, 09:10:40 PMThere's a recording like this. I'm not crazy about the violinist, and I actively dislike what the pianist does with the music. If you listen to it, it would be interesting to know your opinion. I'm not likely to make my own.
(https://static.universal-music.de/asset_new/507927/195/view/Schnittke--Works-for-Violin-and-Piano---Daniel-Hope--Alexey-Botvinov.jpg)
Right, the suite seems a bit too much pastiche for me - but the first violin sonata is a bit more interesting. Thanks.
Quote from: Benji on May 01, 2007, 02:02:04 PMSchnittke I love, but I can only take him in small doses, such is the draining effect he has on my psyche.
Peer Gynt is, IMHO, one of the greatest ballet scores of the 20th century. Now, I cannot comment on whether or not it is great for it's original purpose (i.e. the dancing, and in all honesty, I imagine not), but the music itself is a mammoth and pitch black effort and is a world away from Grieg's work, which in comparison to Schnittke's take on the story, is all butterflies, honey and puppies.
Other than that, my favourites are his 5th and 8th symphonies.
Peer Gynt is overwhelming, disturbing because of its enormity and intensity and feeling of freedom, like Rihm's Tutuguti. Mad music. I don't like the sound on the BIS recording, on my equipment it's distant slightly. Hard to record I guess, and listen to on speakers, because of the enormous dynamic range.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 27, 2023, 06:29:40 AMYes there is. The serenade for violin, piano, double bass, clarinet and percussion.
(But be warned, I don't know the orchestrated version in that recording, only the violin sonata.)
I found it on YouTube. I'll give it a listen later.
Must hear Peer Gynt. I love those descriptions.
Are there recordings other than the BIS?
Quote from: Mandryka on July 27, 2023, 10:54:13 AMRight, the suite seems a bit too much pastiche for me - but the first violin sonata is a bit more interesting. Thanks.
Glad you like it. I haven't listened to it, and I wasn't going to recommend it. Botvinov is known for his concert performances of the Goldberg Variations with a Turkish drummer and cheap lightshow. And so on, which makes me want to stay away.
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 27, 2023, 05:47:21 PMMust hear Peer Gynt. I love those descriptions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnhEdruZkgM&list=PLel0ik2l-H0eliM59DiJl79hiztFghdPb&index=22&ab_channel=VituriDaSilva
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0GGpNnYiP-A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9SB9EuaPNg&list=PLel0ik2l-H0eliM59DiJl79hiztFghdPb&index=25&ab_channel=VituriDaSilva
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ1gdpMJxMg&list=PLel0ik2l-H0eliM59DiJl79hiztFghdPb&index=16&pp=iAQB8AUB
Keep your wig on.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 27, 2023, 09:51:22 PMGlad you like it.
Well, just for the record, I didn't actually say
that!
Quote from: Mandryka on July 28, 2023, 12:15:13 AMWell, just for the record, I didn't actually say that!
I glad you didn't say that ;)
Quote from: not edward on January 11, 2008, 06:57:19 AMI'd agree about technique, but not about mood: the late symphonies to me are simply an attempt to write a music without any of the filler that is usually present, so all the essential material is there, but the harmonies are stripped down, bridging passages are often replaced by periods of silence, the contrapuntal writing is largely elided and so on. To me, one of the key things about these works is to listen to them in the context of what they "should" be; that's where their radicalism comes in. (I'd lke to have heard the original version of the 6th symphony, which apparently is even more extreme than the final version, and has several lengthy passages that are simply silent.)
I think the influence of late Nono is key to these works: I believe Schnittke is writing without the filler because he saw how, in late Nono, the primary driver of musical tension is the alternation between simple material and silence, and he wanted to see if he could build a style which did the same thing in a tonal context. I'm not sure he always succeeds in this, but where he does the results are intriguing.
I'm listening to the sixth now for the first time and I am totally disoriented. I don't think there's enough silence in most of it to create the tension you alluded to (15 years ago) Maybe in the third movement, but not elsewhere. I just have no idea what's happening in this music, totally all at sea. Is it an experiment which has failed?
He certainly doesn't like counterpoint!
Quote from: Mandryka on July 28, 2023, 12:30:55 PMI'm listening to the sixth now for the first time and I am totally disoriented.
I still don't like the Sixth much, but my appreciation was improved by the discussion of it in Peter J. Schmelz's book
Sonic Overload.
Quote from: CRCulver on July 28, 2023, 08:35:01 PMI still don't like the Sixth much, but my appreciation was improved by the discussion of it in Peter J. Schmelz's book Sonic Overload.
Abstract question. If you don't like something, but someone intelligent has explained that you might like it, is it worth forcing yourself?
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 28, 2023, 11:33:55 PMAbstract question. If you don't like something, but someone intelligent has explained that you might like it, is it worth forcing yourself?
Definitely.
Different genre, but for years I couldn't get my yead round Eliot's 'Four Quartets'. Pointless. Until someone walked me though it.
Same with numerous pieces of music, until I grasped what was happening.
Quote from: CRCulver on July 28, 2023, 08:35:01 PMI still don't like the Sixth much, but my appreciation was improved by the discussion of it in Peter J. Schmelz's book Sonic Overload.
The book is too expensive for me I'm afraid, given that this isn't my main area of musical interest (yet) So a summary of the argument would be appreciated!
Just to be clear - there's no polystylism in the 6th symphony, is there?
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 28, 2023, 11:45:41 PMDefinitely.
Different genre, but for years I couldn't get my yead round Eliot's 'Four Quartets'. Pointless. Until someone walked me though it.
Same with numerous pieces of music, until I grasped what was happening.
I too could name pieces of music or interpretations that I started listening to and even with great enthusiasm after reading about. Stopped after a while.
I think for me,
@AnotherSpin , there are some things I don't like and really I'm not interested in them at all. A lot of Beethoven's music is like that - I don't like the Hammerklavier and I have zero interest in reading anything to help me make sense of what on earth he was up to in it. Same for a huge amount of Scarlatti and Palestrina. It's just boring bad music as far as I'm concerned.
Some other pieces are different. I don't like them in the same way as I don't like being shouted at by someone who is using a language I don't understand. I can sense that they're trying desperately to communicate but because I don't have their language, all I'm hearing is vacuous. In that case, I may be keen to pick up a few words, to see what the fuss is about.
The Schnittke symphony 6 is in the second category.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 28, 2023, 11:33:55 PMAbstract question. If you don't like something, but someone intelligent has explained that you might like it, is it worth forcing yourself?
In my case, that someone intelligent didn't really set out to explain that anyone might like it (it's a work of scholarship, not deliberate advocacy). But he did give me some useful analysis, and even if my dislike of the Sixth remains, I better understand the context of Schnittke's whole career and the road towards the late Schnittke pieces that I do like.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 29, 2023, 12:10:40 AMThe book is too expensive for me I'm afraid, given that this isn't my main area of musical interest (yet) So a summary of the argument would be appreciated!
The book is available from the usual pirate sources, that's how I read it. There's no concise summary, Schmelz walks through the whole work with passages from the score. No, this symphony is not polystylistic except in the most ghostly way.
From the notes to the Chandos Symphony 6
Taken in isolation from Schnittke's other
eight symphonies (like all true symphonists, his
works in the genre are staging posts, each
new attempt marking a fresh beginning) his
Symphony No. 6 (1992) is a remarkable work
to unpack. The symphony contains references
to his opera Historia von D Johann Fausten
(1983–94), which he described as a 'negative
passion'. Dealing with the problem of good and evil, the prominent chorale-like (brass
choir) elements in the symphony suggest a
sub-text link with the opera. From the
cataclysmic outset, unfolding all twelve notes
of the chromatic scale in a piled-up chord on
winds, brass and strings pp-ff, the vividness of
its refined yet dark sound world both disturbs
and fascinates. First of all, there is the
exquisite textural spareness of its writing – a
true chamber symphony which sharply profiles
winds, brass (especially) and percussion. The
strings make their dramatically delayed impact
in the searing, Berg-like lament of the third
movement. Then we have the extraordinary
stammering/stuttering speech of this
symphony's rhetoric – here is a broken
language that finds its pre-echoes in such
landmarks of the twentieth century as
Sibelius' Fourth Symphony, Schoenberg's
A Survivor from Warsaw or Shostakovich's
Fifteenth Symphony – all three works written
in the shadow of impending death. The
dynamic range from overpowering fff to barely
audible pppp is that of a composer whose ear
has passed through the filter of a study of
Webern. The angularity of line bespeaks the
lingua franca of Bartók, Schoenberg and
Stravinsky and the twelve-note density of the
harmonic dimension relates to late
Shostakovich. Behind all this is the mould of
the Austro-German symphony with its four
movements of sonata-like dramatic engagement, dance-scherzo, reflection and
'resolution' – but in the finale it is as if
Schnittke, after making a pass at triumphalism
in a clinching opening gesture, is forced back
to reconsider the implications of the first
movement and is left with nothing more than
anxious questioning.
By comparison, the notes for BIS about 6 are more amusing -- and supports
@not edward 's point about silences and cuts.
Schnittke's late symphonies are rather economical and modest in terms of
orchestration, duration and density. The Sixth (1992), Seventh (1993), Eighth
(1994) and Ninth (1997–98) surprise us with the rarefied nature of their sound,
reminiscent of the fabric of Shostakovich's late works. However, the latent
tension increases: the meaning of Schnittke's latest compositions is to be
found between, rather than within the notes themselves. The language be -
comes rather 'tough', dissonant and discordant; it is definitely not easy-listen -
ing music.
The score of the Sixth Symphony (1993) contains almost no passages for
full orchestra; the orchestra plays in groups only, and the actual texture of the
music seems to be ascetically dry and abstract. One has to listen attentively, to
penetrate the musical material itself, in order gradually to become accustomed
to this ascetically sparse texture, so strange on first hearing. As an American
critic remarked after the first New York performance of the work: 'When the
last notes evaporated I had the queasy feeling of having heard a Mahler symphony with most of its musical flesh torn away, leaving a gruesome skeleton
dangling forlornly in a black space'. At that concert, in Carnegie Hall on 6th
February 1994, almost half of the audience left during the performance. Those
who stayed acclaimed the composer with a standing ovation. Schnittke had
made significant cuts after the first performance in Moscow on 25th Nov -
ember 1993, deleting numerous pauses and silences between the bars, which
made the music much more energetic, condensed and articulated.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 29, 2023, 02:32:12 AMBy comparison, the notes for BIS about 6 are more amusing -- and supports @not edward 's point about silences and cuts.
Schnittke's late symphonies are rather economical and modest in terms of
orchestration, duration and density. The Sixth (1992), Seventh (1993), Eighth
(1994) and Ninth (1997–98) surprise us with the rarefied nature of their sound,
reminiscent of the fabric of Shostakovich's late works. However, the latent
tension increases: the meaning of Schnittke's latest compositions is to be
found between, rather than within the notes themselves. The language be -
comes rather 'tough', dissonant and discordant; it is definitely not easy-listen -
ing music.
The score of the Sixth Symphony (1993) contains almost no passages for
full orchestra; the orchestra plays in groups only, and the actual texture of the
music seems to be ascetically dry and abstract. One has to listen attentively, to
penetrate the musical material itself, in order gradually to become accustomed
to this ascetically sparse texture, so strange on first hearing. As an American
critic remarked after the first New York performance of the work: 'When the
last notes evaporated I had the queasy feeling of having heard a Mahler symphony with most of its musical flesh torn away, leaving a gruesome skeleton
dangling forlornly in a black space'. At that concert, in Carnegie Hall on 6th
February 1994, almost half of the audience left during the performance. Those
who stayed acclaimed the composer with a standing ovation. Schnittke had
made significant cuts after the first performance in Moscow on 25th Nov -
ember 1993, deleting numerous pauses and silences between the bars, which
made the music much more energetic, condensed and articulated.
This reminds me, I quite like the 8th but have never heard the 9th. Should put that on my play list. The Symphony No. 5 with Rozhdestvensky is excellent. I think it's on Melodiya.
I found the 6th and 7th to be less than compelling, just because the stuttering musical exposition doesn't resonate with me, and because I didn't find myself guided by any musical or dramatic arc that I could detect. (I take for granted that it is there, but it doesn't resonate with me, for whatever reason). The exception would be the opening movement of the 7th, which starts with a violin solo, blossoming to some lovely, dissonant music mostly for strings.
The eighth doesn't make that impression. I don't find it as sparse as the two symphonies that receded it, and I do find myself following a musical/dramatic arc as I listen to this music. I particularly enjoyed the first movement, which starts with an elemental theme for horn that I would characterize as reminiscent of Bruckner, but with unexpected large interval leaps. This is taken up by other sections of the orchestra with a buildup of tension. It is followed by an extroverted fast movement, a largely static slow movement, and another extroverted movement that ends in a static chord.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 29, 2023, 07:00:19 AMI found the 6th and 7th to be less than compelling, just because the stuttering musical exposition doesn't resonate with me, and because I didn't find myself guided by any musical or dramatic arc that I could detect. (I take for granted that it is there, but it doesn't resonate with me, for whatever reason). The exception would be the opening movement of the 7th, which starts with a violin solo, blossoming to some lovely, dissonant music mostly for strings.
The eighth doesn't make that impression. I don't find it as sparse as the two symphonies that receded it, and I do find myself following a musical/dramatic arc as I listen to this music. I particularly enjoyed the first movement, which starts with an elemental theme for horn that I would characterize as reminiscent of Bruckner, but with unexpected large interval leaps. This is taken up by other sections of the orchestra with a buildup of tension. It is followed by an extroverted fast movement, a largely static slow movement, and another extroverted movement that ends in a static chord.
Thanks for your report. Interesting.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 26, 2023, 09:40:52 AMI'm looking for more small scale (not symphonic) music in the spirit of the second violin sonata. Any suggestions?
When you asked, I was ignorant of the fact that
Quasi una Sonata is in fact his 2nd vn sonata.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 18, 2011, 09:23:16 AMI do need at last to investigate Peer Gynt . . . .
Did you ever?
Anyway, listening to the Chandos 7th symphony this dreary London afternoon. It makes an impact. Very personal poetry IMO - he's kind of skinned himself alive and exposed the innards (sorry, that's all the Cormac McCarthy I've been reading coming out.)
A soul laid bare.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 30, 2023, 07:34:53 AMDid you ever?
I got as far as buying the recording. I'm not convinced that I've actually listened, yet. I ought, of course.
Harp and Oboe Concerto's worth checking
Quote from: Karl Henning on July 30, 2023, 07:54:46 AMI got as far as buying the recording. I'm not convinced that I've actually listened, yet. I ought, of course.
If you had listened, you would remember. It's unforgettable.
What do you folks think of In Memoriam, orchestral version? I was very moved by it when I first heart it in college but played it for a friend who likes a lot of the same music I do and she felt unmoved by it. It missed on all the same notes it hit with me.
Quote from: relm1 on July 31, 2023, 05:46:06 AMWhat do you folks think of In Memoriam, orchestral version? I was very moved by it when I first heart it in college but played it for a friend who likes a lot of the same music I do and she felt unmoved by it. It missed on all the same notes it hit with me.
I feel really positive about the orchestration.
Quote from: relm1 on July 31, 2023, 05:46:06 AMWhat do you folks think of In Memoriam, orchestral version? I was very moved by it when I first heart it in college but played it for a friend who likes a lot of the same music I do and she felt unmoved by it. It missed on all the same notes it hit with me.
An orcestration of the piano quintet, eh? I don't think I've heard it.
Quote from: relm1 on July 31, 2023, 05:46:06 AMWhat do you folks think of In Memoriam, orchestral version?
I like it a lot. It was the first Schnittke I ever heard, the Ozawa/Rostropovich disc on Sony (with the 2nd Cello Cto). When I later heard the Piano 5tet, it sounded kind of bony and lacking in color next to the orchestration.
The waltz -- whether in the quintet or the orchestrated version -- is a good example of effective polystylism. That's to say the "Viennese" music, and the contrast with the less traditional music, seems to me at least to be quite effective expressively and if anything shows off the positive qualities of the "modern -er" music.
Quote from: Karl Henning on August 01, 2023, 01:51:01 PMAn orcestration of the piano quintet, eh? I don't think I've heard it.
This is it.
EDIT: the link is a playlist but only the first movement is played from the youtube player so best to listen here instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsdfUjwjDqQ&list=OLAK5uy_km1Yq1iPuN-IM_3Dt4hgwpQtUSWkJtbkY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsdfUjwjDqQ&list=OLAK5uy_km1Yq1iPuN-IM_3Dt4hgwpQtUSWkJtbkY)
Thanks!
Quote from: not edward on January 11, 2008, 06:57:19 AMI'd agree about technique, but not about mood: the late symphonies to me are simply an attempt to write a music without any of the filler that is usually present, so all the essential material is there, but the harmonies are stripped down, bridging passages are often replaced by periods of silence, the contrapuntal writing is largely elided and so on. To me, one of the key things about these works is to listen to them in the context of what they "should" be; that's where their radicalism comes in. (I'd lke to have heard the original version of the 6th symphony, which apparently is even more extreme than the final version, and has several lengthy passages that are simply silent.)
I think the influence of late Nono is key to these works: I believe Schnittke is writing without the filler because he saw how, in late Nono, the primary driver of musical tension is the alternation between simple material and silence, and he wanted to see if he could build a style which did the same thing in a tonal context. I'm not sure he always succeeds in this, but where he does the results are intriguing.
Having now listened to the BIS 6 with the prologue of Prometeo still in my head as it were, I can see what you were getting at. But of course Nono is much less ascetic, with dynamic contrasts and voice.
Over the past few days I've listened to three recordings of the Faust Cantata - BIS, Melodyia and today Moscow Conservatory, the Moscow one is astonishing, coruscating, scary in fact, and it exudes a total commitment to the music. Good sound too. One of the essential late 20th century music recordings I'd say
(https://russiancdshop.com/velke%20rcd/smccd0166.jpg)
https://www.russiancdshop.com/music.php?zobraz=details&id=29135&lang=fr
Quote from: Mandryka on August 20, 2023, 07:15:39 AMOver the past few days I've listened to three recordings of the Faust Cantata - BIS, Melodyia and today Moscow Conservatory, the Moscow one is astonishing, coruscating, scary in fact, and it exudes a total commitment to the music. Good sound too. One of the essential late 20th century music recordings I'd say
(https://russiancdshop.com/velke%20rcd/smccd0166.jpg)
https://www.russiancdshop.com/music.php?zobraz=details&id=29135&lang=fr
I've not heard it but your description makes me add it to my listening list.
Quote from: relm1 on August 20, 2023, 04:06:33 PMI've not heard it but your description makes me add it to my listening list.
+1
Re Faust, am I wrong to think it is not unrelated to Mahler 8? Musically I mean, not just that they're both Faust settings.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 25, 2023, 12:01:05 AMRe Faust, am I wrong to think it is not unrelated to Mahler 8? Musically I mean, not just that they're both Faust settings.
No, it is a choral suite based on Schnittke's opera.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/516mfiTebwL.jpg)
Opera is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms_a-46jt-g&list=RDms_a-46jt-g&start_radio=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms_a-46jt-g&list=RDms_a-46jt-g&start_radio=1)
But the Faust Cantata came first I think -- if that's right, then it's more plausible to say that the opera is based on the choral suite than the other way round. And in a sense, I guess, Mahler 8 is a choral suite.
The Cantata came first but then it became act 3 of the opera, apparently.
If the opera's as inspired as the cantata then I should hear it.
Very impressed by what Ragna Schirma makes of the challenging 3rd piano sonata
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk3MDI0My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDM4MDcxNDR9)
Quote from: Mandryka on February 10, 2024, 09:00:36 AMVery impressed by what Ragna Schirma makes of the challenging 3rd piano sonata
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk3MDI0My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDM4MDcxNDR9)
That is good because it is the only recording I can find on Qobuz of the piano sonatas!
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODQ0MjgxNy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1MjI5MjcyMjF9)
There are 14 recordings of the Schnittke string trio (1985) on Presto - it's coming up in a concert in in London (Conway Hall) on Sunday so I thought I'd check it out on the one above. Tonal and (hence) comforting kitchy melodies rapidly undermined by dissonance, never saccherine for long, you know the gen. Quite nice though.
Schnittke's game at this time seems to have been to say in the language of music: "Hey, we've lost the possibility of consolation in modernity - all you can do is fondly remember what it was like. But as soon as you do you realise that it's all over, all a sham."
Quote from: Mandryka on February 10, 2024, 09:00:36 AMVery impressed by what Ragna Schirma makes of the challenging 3rd piano sonata
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk3MDI0My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDM4MDcxNDR9)
Huge thumbs up from me btw!
(https://i.discogs.com/PVXGcSuPH2DgQMhVdcpk_9WMdnsJy6SHEgAhhXa9xL4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:597/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTM4NjMx/NjMtMTM0NzI4OTkz/OC00NTU4LmpwZWc.jpeg)
The second sonata as played by Tchetuev is a wonderful thing - I'm starting to think the Schnittke sonatas are a summit of his later style. The three seem to make a real set - they've got a similar mood.
The recording has an enormous dynamic range - you need a system which sounds good at the extremes!
Quote from: Mandryka on February 18, 2024, 12:50:19 PM(https://i.discogs.com/PVXGcSuPH2DgQMhVdcpk_9WMdnsJy6SHEgAhhXa9xL4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:597/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTM4NjMx/NjMtMTM0NzI4OTkz/OC00NTU4LmpwZWc.jpeg)
The second sonata as played by Tchetuev is a wonderful thing - I'm starting to think the Schnittke sonatas are a summit of his later style. The three seem to make a real set - they've got a similar mood.
The recording has an enormous dynamic range - you need a system which sounds good at the extremes!
This cover should be used as an eye test. I couldn't figure out what works were on the recording till I realized the work is practically invisible. A release for those with perfect vision.
Quote from: relm1 on February 19, 2024, 05:52:46 AMThis cover should be used as an eye test. I couldn't figure out what works were on the recording till I realized the work is practically invisible. A release for those with perfect vision.
I didn't even realize there was text there! It reminds me of this photo I saw in the Harvard fog art museum. It was the ocean at sunrise. At first it looks like nothing but black. But as you focus on it you see the details of the waves appear. Pretty cool... this isn't! >:D
Quote from: Mandryka on February 18, 2024, 12:50:19 PM(https://i.discogs.com/PVXGcSuPH2DgQMhVdcpk_9WMdnsJy6SHEgAhhXa9xL4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:597/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTM4NjMx/NjMtMTM0NzI4OTkz/OC00NTU4LmpwZWc.jpeg)
The second sonata as played by Tchetuev is a wonderful thing - I'm starting to think the Schnittke sonatas are a summit of his later style. The three seem to make a real set - they've got a similar mood.
The recording has an enormous dynamic range - you need a system which sounds good at the extremes!
Agreed, what a piece, and what playing! Thematically obsessive, like braided rope at times, a dark and mesmerising second movement, and a climax of intensity in the last movement you don't hear the like of very often. And actually pretty moving I thought.
(https://i.discogs.com/PVXGcSuPH2DgQMhVdcpk_9WMdnsJy6SHEgAhhXa9xL4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:597/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTM4NjMx/NjMtMTM0NzI4OTkz/OC00NTU4LmpwZWc.jpeg)
And finally to the first of Schnittke's piano sonatas (1987) as played by Tchetuev.
This seems a more directly acute and personal psychological portrait than the other two, which reaches the same cold blue/white hot extremes of intensity as the other two, but with more overt tonal passages and somewhat less compact. Tchetuev's playing is as ever extraordinary, the dramatic power he conjures up feels like a kind of nuclear fusion at times.
These three sonatas, in this recording, having been a striking and involving discovery, am very grateful to Bachtoven for the recommendation. : )