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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: toucan on April 21, 2011, 04:37:19 AM

Title: .
Post by: toucan on April 21, 2011, 04:37:19 AM
Boulez on Shostakovich: " second, or even third pressing of Mahler;" putting a second, or even third rate composer back in his place does not require many words...
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: karlhenning on April 21, 2011, 04:39:45 AM
No. I think you're only imagining that you see, that which you wish to see.

The enthusiasm for the ongoing Petrenko cycle of the symphonies, for only one instance, belies your thesis.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Florestan on April 21, 2011, 04:48:21 AM
his suporters no longer seem to get as angry when you do not like his music

I, for one, never cared whether you like his music or not.  :D
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 21, 2011, 04:52:33 AM
No. I think you're only imagining that you see, that which you wish to see.


Bingo. Out in the real world (concerts and recordings), DSCH is as big as ever. Sorry if it disappoints you.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Florestan on April 21, 2011, 05:44:31 AM
Mr. Toucan, you're exactly like James: you ask a question and if the answer is not to your liking you start ranting. What's the point of asking it in the first place?
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: karlhenning on April 21, 2011, 05:46:17 AM
Surgically done, Monsieur le Comte.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 21, 2011, 05:56:21 AM
Naxos itself is fading. .. These people themselves are fading.

And Shostakovich is fading.

That's three claimed instances of "fading," and yet "toucan" has yet to provide evidence for such fades. Perhaps "toucan" himself is fading?

Let's check the colors in his avatar tomorrow.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brian on April 21, 2011, 05:57:56 AM
When I saw the title of the thread, my first thought was, "He's already dead." Upon viewing the content, I think it's safe to say no. Shostakovich was surprisingly ill-represented in one of the many meaningless GMG polls of The Best, it is true, but his music is ever-more popular in concert halls and ever-better loved by wide audiences. One of my best friends was led into classical music by Shostakovich, and thinks the composer an ideal way of bringing the new generation to classical, because he is a core part of the canon, emotionally complex and compelling, and also a composer who speaks in a modern, vivid language which can still strike to our cores.

I once met at a concert a pair of 20-something African-Americans with baggy blue jeans and red boxer shorts and chains and the like, who said they made sure to hear every live Shostakovich piece offered in Houston. What other composer can brag of that?

Enthousiasm for a Naxos cycle: what a joke! Naxos itself is fading. ...Naxos musicians over the great musicians.

What a joke indeed! For anyone with the least bit of knowledge about Naxos, this is a bit like listening to the Glenn Beck Program. The stuff Naxos is up to these days is immensely exciting, and given that they now regularly record artists like Cho-Liang Lin, the London Symphony Orchestra, and Aldo Ciccolini, there is no pejorative in "Naxos musicians." Indeed, this month's Naxos Blu-Ray release features Valery Gergiev conducting the Vienna Philharmonic in Berlioz' Benvenuto Cellini.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 21, 2011, 06:03:37 AM
For anyone with the least bit of knowledge about Naxos, this is a bit like listening to the Glenn Beck Program. The stuff Naxos is up to these days is immensely exciting, and given that they now regularly record artists like Cho-Liang Lin, the London Symphony Orchestra, and Aldo Ciccolini, there is no pejorative in "Naxos musicians."

Yeah, I thought this was funny too. It's like toucan hasn't looked at the Naxos catalogue since 1994.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brahmsian on April 21, 2011, 06:19:39 AM
Shostakovich's music fading?  Are you kidding me?

His stature and reputation is growing by leaps in bounds, as well as his general popularity.  He is among the Top 5 (easily) composers of the 20th Century, and perhaps even Top 3 (after Stravinsky and Bartok).

Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brahmsian on April 21, 2011, 06:26:50 AM
Toucan, your idea of Shostakovich's music fading belongs here:

(http://1dentalfoodblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/fruit-loops1.jpg)

As your notion is both fruity and loopy and has no value (nutritional and otherwise).

I self-nominate this as post of the month!  :P
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Scarpia on April 21, 2011, 06:27:23 AM
Enthousiasm for a Naxos cycle: what a joke! Naxos itself is fading. It used to be the internet was riddled with people who let the cost of a CD determine their taste: thus their preference for Naxos musicians over the great musicians. These people themselves are fading. The growing opinion currently is, while you might have to buy Naxos if you want recordings of obscure or unknown composers, you may want to turn elsewhere for good recordings of Beethoven, Schubert, etc.  If all there is left of Shostakovich is Naxos then Shostakovich himself is indeed turning into an obscure & forgotten composer. And methinks it the so-called Apollon who is taking his wishes for realities, - once again!

Why is there no ROTFLOL smiley?  In the 70's EMI turned Karajan down for a few Shostakovich symphony recordings.  Now they have just finished a cycle with Jansons, and since then cycles by Rostropovich, Kitajenko, Caetani, Ashkenazy, Barshai, Jarvi have been released with the venerable Haitink still available and more coming.  That's what you call "fading?"
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: karlhenning on April 21, 2011, 06:32:25 AM
. . . That's what you call "fading?"

Well, in comparison to that “rising star” Boulez (nyuk-nyuk-nyuk). toucan is in dire denial that the whole musical world thinks highly of Shostakovich, where Boulez enjoys a . . . niche audience at best.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Scarpia on April 21, 2011, 06:36:03 AM
Well, in comparison to that “rising star” Boulez (nyuk-nyuk-nyuk). toucan is in dire denial that the whole musical world thinks highly of Shostakovich, where Boulez enjoys a . . . niche audience at best.

Clearly Boulez could increase his popularity with a few Shosty recordings.   0:)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mirror Image on April 21, 2011, 06:46:27 AM
My take on Toucan's "fading" thesis is simple. It's only in their mind. To say that Shostakovich's influence is waning is proof enough that Toucan doesn't know what the hell he/she is talking about in the first place.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: karlhenning on April 21, 2011, 06:48:14 AM
Clearly Boulez could increase his popularity with a few Shosty recordings.   0:)

As a conductor, yes; wouldn't do much for his composerly star . . . .
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 21, 2011, 06:53:57 AM
Well, in comparison to that “rising star” Boulez (nyuk-nyuk-nyuk). toucan is in dire denial that the whole musical world thinks highly of Shostakovich, where Boulez enjoys a . . . niche audience at best.

I don't know, Karl. The last time my local band programmed Shostakovich (the First Violin Concerto), the soloist was booed off the stage half way through the first movement when fully two thirds of the audience began chanting, Pee-Air, Pee-Air!!! Outside the concert hall, demonstrators filled the street.


(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/we-want-boulez-protest.jpg)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Szykneij on April 21, 2011, 06:55:36 AM
A timely tidbit -- 

Bidding on this Shostakovich CD just ended (Symphony No. 1, The Age of Gold Ballet Suite). It opened at $9.99 with 27 bids pushing it up to $174.78!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&autorefresh=true&hash=item231007cf5c&item=150592802652&nma=true&pt=Music_CDs&rt=nc&si=D4vApdYhD%252BUmtXLY3QXeFtXhSdk%253D (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&autorefresh=true&hash=item231007cf5c&item=150592802652&nma=true&pt=Music_CDs&rt=nc&si=D4vApdYhD%252BUmtXLY3QXeFtXhSdk%253D)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: karlhenning on April 21, 2011, 06:56:38 AM
I don't know, Karl. The last time my local band programmed Shostakovich (the First Violin Concerto), the soloist was booed off the stage half way through the first movement when fully two thirds of the audience began chanting, Pee-Air, Pee-Air!!! Outside the concert hall, demonstrators filled the street.


(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/we-want-boulez-protest.jpg)

I remember that fateful day in 1932 . . . .
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brahmsian on April 21, 2011, 06:59:28 AM
In fact, the better argument would be that Shostakovich's stock out of all composers past and present, is the one that is rising the most sharply.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: karlhenning on April 21, 2011, 08:08:21 AM
In fact, the better argument would be that Shostakovich's stock out of all composers past and present, is the one that is rising the most sharply.

Aye, such events as the first Boston production of The Beak The Nose a few seasons ago. toucan is talking out the back of his neck. (toucan cannot fade, really, if he never shone, right?)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Scarpia on April 21, 2011, 08:23:22 AM
In fact, the better argument would be that Shostakovich's stock out of all composers past and present, is the one that is rising the most sharply.

Frankly I don't find that statement any more justified than the converse. 
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: DavidW on April 21, 2011, 08:50:30 AM
When I saw the title of the thread, my first thought was, "He's already dead."

Ah but great heroes don't die they just fade away. ;D
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: DavidW on April 21, 2011, 08:53:30 AM
In recent internet polls and discussions I thought I noticed a movement away from Shostakovich.

I don't think it's possible because just when interest might wain, Karl will post some annoying post in Russian which will be subtitled "listening to Shostakovich's viola sonata lol" ;D  And Harry will shake his fist, and then several posters will show solidarity by listening to Shostakovich.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: karlhenning on April 21, 2011, 09:00:20 AM
. . . Karl will post some annoying post in Russian . . . .

Ерунда такая!
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Wanderer on April 21, 2011, 09:47:30 AM
...no longer seem to get as angry when you do not like his music:

God help us if infantile ire of the sort is to be perceived as a valid measure of music appreciation.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Grazioso on April 21, 2011, 09:59:14 AM
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-todECdbOac8/TYodQw7iK4I/AAAAAAAAAJA/cPLxYzBNk6E/george-silk-protestors-with-sign-shostakovich-jump-thru-the-window-outside-hotel-for-world-peace.jpg)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: DavidW on April 21, 2011, 10:18:04 AM
Ерунда такая!

You know Karl I stuck into babelfish hoping that you said "pleasure is the law!" ;D  Ah disappointment... :'(
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: karlhenning on April 21, 2011, 10:37:46 AM
You know Karl I stuck into babelfish hoping that you said "pleasure is the law!" ;D  Ah disappointment... :'(

Here's one for you, Davey: Хлеб – богатство народа.

; )
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: ibanezmonster on April 21, 2011, 02:36:13 PM
Conte Ridolfo, you are the typical internet poster, who when he does not like the opinion, smears the person emitting the opinion, instead of discussing the opinion.
I could imagine it's hard not to make fun of someone when that person is just being ridiculous.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Daverz on April 21, 2011, 04:49:23 PM
In recent internet polls and discussions I thought I noticed a movement away from Shostakovich. He does not seem to get ranked as high as he used to in recent polls or lists of favorites and his suporters no longer seem to get as angry when you do not like his music: perhaps not a wholesale rejection, mind you, but the beginnings of indifference. Has anyone else out there seen this?

On the contrary, I think some of the old extra-musical prejudices against Shostakovich have faded.  And I think we're seeing a hopeful trend of other Soviet composers being "rehabilitated".

Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mirror Image on April 21, 2011, 07:46:22 PM
Toucan can't possibly be taken seriously after making such ridiculous assertions that Shostakovich's popularity is waning. ::) Seriously, the guy is just trying to get a rise out of people, but he picked the wrong bunch to do this with. :)
Title: Re: Is Toucan fading?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 21, 2011, 09:59:25 PM

But then, Shostakovich could never be defended on his limited merits, could he...  :P

Well actually he could, but would you pay any attention? Somehow I doubt it.
Title: Re: Is Toucan fading?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 21, 2011, 10:52:20 PM
You are a funny guy, toucan  :) yeah, loads of Dittersdorf and Thalberg recordings out there; about as many as that composer everyone's forgotten, what's his name, Shosta-something
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 21, 2011, 11:21:45 PM
My dear Toucan, your own chronological argument refutes your claim. Shostakovich died in 1975. During his lifetime, only a few of his works were played regularly (e.g. the 5th and 10th symphonies and the 8th string quartet). Since his demise, it's become common to record complete symphony and quartet cycles, and many of the other symphonies are getting a lot more play.

The quartet cycle in particular just gets more and more popular, and is increasingly accepted as one of the "Big 3" essential cycles, along with those of Beethoven and Bartok.

I rest my case.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 22, 2011, 12:06:18 AM
OK Toucan, let's go back to the beginning. You think people are "moving away from Shostakovich." Can you cite some real-world evidence for this "move away"?
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brian on April 22, 2011, 12:19:36 AM
Velimir, you truly have not gotten the point. In his life time Thalberg was more famous than Schumann and Chopin and no doubt had the recording industry already existed back then Thalberg would have been recorded far more often than they.

New 2011 Shostakovich CDs so far:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CDA67834.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CRC3049.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/NI5865.jpg)
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/INT221175.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/BISSACD1858.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/Mar0511.jpg)
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/AUDITE21411.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/LPO0053.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/8572396.jpg)
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/HAEN93260.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4779299.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/ATHCD16.jpg)

New 2011 Thalberg CDs so far:







(none)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 22, 2011, 12:26:25 AM
New 2011 Shostakovich CDs so far:

Sorry, but we can be sure that the people playing on and buying those CDs are not "people of good judgment and taste," because "people of taste simply have no more accepted the imitations of Shostakovich than they have accepted fake diamonds."

The Toucan has spoken (or whatever it is toucans do).
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Florestan on April 22, 2011, 12:37:21 AM
(http://www.seabreeze.com.au/Img/Photos/Other/21183.jpg)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Opus106 on April 22, 2011, 01:40:18 AM
Well, toucan, let's suppose that we give you the answer that you want -- that Shostakovich's popularity is fading; what do you propose on doing after that?
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Lethevich on April 22, 2011, 02:29:58 AM
Well, toucan, let's suppose that we give you the answer that you want -- that Shostakovich's popularity is fading; what do you propose on doing after that?

Then GMG can finally listen to him properly, as he won't be popular anymore :)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Opus106 on April 22, 2011, 02:49:14 AM
Then GMG can finally listen to him properly, as he won't be popular anymore :)

I call dibs on recognising this underrated composer and single-handedly bringing him to the attention of the wider world in 2029. :D
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: karlhenning on April 22, 2011, 10:14:06 AM
New 2011 Shostakovich CDs so far:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CDA67834.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CRC3049.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/NI5865.jpg)
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/INT221175.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/BISSACD1858.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/Mar0511.jpg)
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/AUDITE21411.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/LPO0053.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/8572396.jpg)
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/HAEN93260.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4779299.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/ATHCD16.jpg)

New 2011 Thalberg CDs so far:







(none)

And . . . new 2011 Boulez CDs? . . .
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brian on April 22, 2011, 11:32:49 AM
Toucan, how is the greatness of music defined?
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Scarpia on April 22, 2011, 11:36:18 AM
There are more mediocrities out there then there are quality people; therefore simple-minded second rates like Shostakovich get more recordings in the short run than great composers like Boulez or Lutoslawski or Dutilleux or Messiaen. But this counts for no more in the eyes of posterity than the successes of a Thalberg have counted. Nor does this erase the fact that - outside of a handle of self blinding die-hards on low-circulation internet sites - enthousiasm for Shostakovich is fading - as enthousiasm for Menotti as faded - and as enthousiasm for Arvo Part will fade. Making it easy does not work over the only run that matters to serious, self-respecting artists - the long run that is.

The Lisa Batiashvilli CD included in those photos has got to be the single most awful CD I have bought in years; in fact it is the worst CD I have bought since the Credo CD also involving Arvo Part: why must Salonen so often be involved with the worst the recording industry has to offer these days? What kind of public does he expect to attract with low-quality CD's like that? Is it worth it?

The most striking thing is that you think that this statement, for which you have provided no quantitative evidence at all, would convince anyone of anything.  In 1970 it was a milestone that the Berlin Philharmonic had recorded a Shostakovich symphony.  Today we have a dozen different symphony cycles to choose from with more in progress, and at least a dozen string quartet cycles.  How is that consistent with interest "fading?"
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brewski on April 22, 2011, 11:44:21 AM
Yes, I see no evidence of "fading," either. If anything, performances of his works are only increasing, as are recordings. Even if I wanted to listen to nothing but Shostakovich, I doubt I could get around to hearing all the CDs currently available--never mind ones that you could find out of print from say, the last five years or so.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Bulldog on April 22, 2011, 12:14:38 PM
There are more mediocrities out there then there are quality people; therefore simple-minded second rates like Shostakovich get more recordings in the short run than great composers like Boulez or Lutoslawski or Dutilleux or Messiaen. But this counts for no more in the eyes of posterity than the successes of a Thalberg have counted. Nor does this erase the fact that - outside of a handle of self blinding die-hards on low-circulation internet sites - enthousiasm for Shostakovich is fading -

You keep saying that Shostakovich is fading but offer no evidence to support your premise.  It's just wishful thinking on your part, and it would be a good idea for you to stop acting the fool.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 22, 2011, 12:20:08 PM
...it would be a good idea for you to stop acting the fool.

Toucan seems intent on proving he has a bird brain  ;D

Yes, I see no evidence of "fading," either. If anything, performances of his works are only increasing...

In my area too I've noticed an increase in performances, orchestral and chamber. The Mandelring Quartet's recent cycle, for example

Sarge
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Scarpia on April 22, 2011, 12:22:14 PM
Toucan seems intent on proving he has a bird brain  ;D

In another thread he points out that the credibility of his statements is bolstered by the fact that he has three Masters degrees and two PhDs.   ???
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brewski on April 22, 2011, 12:24:04 PM
...and in a few weeks I'm hearing Alan (toledobass) in the Toledo Symphony Orchestra do the Sixth Symphony at Carnegie--can't wait for that.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Philoctetes on April 22, 2011, 12:33:08 PM
In another thread he points out that the credibility of his statements is bolstered by the fact that he has three Masters degrees and two PhDs.   ???

Not to question, but honestly... Nigga, please?!
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Drasko on April 22, 2011, 12:45:20 PM
...and in a few weeks I'm hearing Alan (toledobass) in the Toledo Symphony Orchestra do the Sixth Symphony at Carnegie--can't wait for that.

--Bruce

.... while week ago Riccardo Muti (hardly a Shostakovich partisan) brought the Chicago Symphony to Carnegie Hall with guess what - Shostakovich 5th.

Since I can't see any decrease in recordings and concert programming and Toucan isn't offering anything to back his claim I'd guess that his intentions lay elsewhere. Maybe in starting the very trend, if he posts about Shostakovich's fading at enough forums, blogs, newsgroups, someone is going to google it, take it as information rather than opinion and transmit it further .... and in few years who knows what can snowball out of it.  8) 
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brewski on April 22, 2011, 12:47:39 PM
.... while week ago Riccardo Muti (hardly a Shostakovich partisan) brought the Chicago Symphony to Carnegie Hall with guess what - Shostakovich 5th.


Forgot to mention that (and I was at that concert). But you're absolutely right: Muti isn't exactly "Mr. DSCH," so for him to do that piece says something.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Luke on April 22, 2011, 01:00:02 PM
Since I can't see any decrease in recordings and concert programming and Toucan isn't offering anything to back his claim I'd guess that his intentions lay elsewhere. Maybe in starting the very trend, if he posts about Shostakovich's fading at enough forums, blogs, newsgroups, someone is going to google it, take it as information rather than opinion and transmit it further .... and in few years who knows what can snowball out of it.  8)

It's not working yet, anyway. Put 'Shostakovich fading popularity' into google and you get this thread, first, with, as the quoted text, someone-or-other's complete rejection of Toucan's proposition, and then, after that, a bunch of pages discussing the extraordinary rise in the popularity of his music.

Anyway, I can't for the life of me imagine why Toucan play at that game   ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Two-Tone on April 22, 2011, 01:36:14 PM
As nasty as soviet bureaucrats, the pro-shosty lynch mob. Makes sense. I will give up all my recordings of Shostakovich for one song by Gustav Mahler I do not care which one.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Scarpia on April 22, 2011, 01:37:39 PM
As nasty as soviet bureaucrats, the pro-shosty lynch mob. Makes sense. I will give up all my recordings of Shostakovich for one song by Gustav Mahler I do not care which one.

Why give them up.  Sell them on e-bay and make a bundle.  Demand appears to be high!  :)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Two-Tone on April 22, 2011, 02:02:14 PM
hmmm, wonderful idea. hoard them now before interest wanes, lol.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Scarpia on April 22, 2011, 02:03:23 PM
hmmm, wonderful idea. hoard them now before interest wanes, lol.

You've got a lot to learn about finance.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brian on April 22, 2011, 02:05:37 PM
...and in a few weeks I'm hearing Alan (toledobass) in the Toledo Symphony Orchestra do the Sixth Symphony at Carnegie--can't wait for that.

--Bruce

Oh, man! The Sixth live was the first Shostakovich I ever heard - I was something like 16 and even then I knew something was up. Haven't seen it done live since, but would absolutely die to.

Not to question, but honestly... Nigga, please?!

I feel guilty about how loudly I laughed at this.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brian on April 22, 2011, 02:06:26 PM
hmmm, wonderful idea. hoard them now before interest wanes, lol.

My best friend and I are 21 and we plan on being avid Shostakovich lovers for 60+ years. Your retirement plan is safe.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Scarpia on April 22, 2011, 02:12:41 PM
I feel guilty about how loudly I laughed at this.

I guess I'm not down with the hip rap, because I had no idea what that meant.   :-[
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brian on April 22, 2011, 02:16:59 PM
I guess I'm not down with the hip rap, because I had no idea what that meant.   :-[

Minor, slightly more offensive variant on this (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bitch+Please) :)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Scarpia on April 22, 2011, 02:24:09 PM
Minor, slightly more offensive variant on this (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bitch+Please) :)

Still not clear, maybe I'll go down to Old Navy or The Gap and try and get some practical experience with these hipster-type phrases.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brian on April 22, 2011, 02:44:58 PM
Still not clear, maybe I'll go down to Old Navy or The Gap and try and get some practical experience with these hipster-type phrases.

Hrm, I didn't think it was that confusing:

"Expresses incredulous disgust, usually in reaction to a statement that is incredible, false, or otherwise outrageous. In some cases, it can also be used to repell a minor annoyance..."

It's like saying "puh-leez," only with gangsta words inserted. FWIW I still say "oh, give me a break."
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Philoctetes on April 22, 2011, 02:49:21 PM
FWIW I still say "oh, give me a break."

Loved that show, man.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: karlhenning on April 22, 2011, 06:11:44 PM
C'mon, you nasty pro-Shostakovich lot: don't be hatin' on the bird!

Jes' flip him.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mirror Image on April 22, 2011, 06:23:46 PM
Loved that show, man.

Yeah, you would. That kind of low-brow, unintelligent humor seems right up your alley.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brahmsian on April 23, 2011, 07:13:13 AM
Frankly I don't find that statement any more justified than the converse.

Alright, fair enough Scarpia.  Besides Bach, Beethoven and Mozart (whose stock arguably cannot rise any higher unless there is a stock split  ;D), can you name me at least 10 composers you believe whose stock is rising at a higher rate than Shostakovich?
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Scarpia on April 23, 2011, 08:32:20 AM
Alright, fair enough Scarpia.  Besides Bach, Beethoven and Mozart (whose stock arguably cannot rise any higher unless there is a stock split  ;D), can you name me at least 10 composers you believe whose stock is rising at a higher rate than Shostakovich?

It is easier for stock to rise when it starts low.  Atterberg, Sallinen, Schnittke, Bantock, Magnard, Tansman, Bacewicz, Brian, Hummel, Bax.  All composers who were either forgotten or almost unknown, but who have had a (re)surgence of interested after conductors, musicians and/or record labels took up their causes recently.  Shostakovich was recognized internationally throughout his career, although there seems to be abundant interest today his works they were never absent from the music scene.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: ibanezmonster on April 23, 2011, 04:15:17 PM
I guess I'm not down with the hip rap, because I had no idea what that meant.   :-[
And you live in this country, right?  :o :D
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: DavidW on April 23, 2011, 06:10:56 PM
Well I personally think that the n-word has no place on this forum, I wasn't laughing.  Unlike many curse words thrown around, this one specifically is racially charged, insulting word.  I don't think that it was intentionally used that way, but it would be easy to find insult anyway.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Philoctetes on April 23, 2011, 06:30:05 PM
Well I personally think that the n-word has no place on this forum, I wasn't laughing.  Unlike many curse words thrown around, this one specifically is racially charged, insulting word.  I don't think that it was intentionally used that way, but it would be easy to find insult anyway.

First, it wasn't the n-word. There's a linguistic and stylistic difference (and it matters). Second, the context was also key, and the incredulity was aptly expressed. Thirdly, (and most weakly), I am of African heritage, and I feel that the double standard grants me larger allowance.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Pierre on April 24, 2011, 12:35:58 AM
Toucan, your idea of Shostakovich's music fading belongs here:

(http://1dentalfoodblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/fruit-loops1.jpg)

As your notion is both fruity and loopy and has no value (nutritional and otherwise).

I self-nominate this as post of the month!  :P

That made me laugh - thank you!
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: eyeresist on April 24, 2011, 01:00:08 AM
Enthousiasm for a Naxos cycle: what a joke! Naxos itself is fading. It used to be the internet was riddled with people who let the cost of a CD determine their taste: thus their preference for Naxos musicians over the great musicians. These people themselves are fading. The growing opinion currently is, while you might have to buy Naxos if you want recordings of obscure or unknown composers, you may want to turn elsewhere for good recordings of Beethoven, Schubert, etc.  If all there is left of Shostakovich is Naxos then Shostakovich himself is indeed turning into an obscure & forgotten composer.

"I only buy from the Yellow label. True sign of quality, don't you know? And THIS - *holds up Naxos CD* - this TRASH - *pinches nose* - it would even soil my chamber pot."
*Monocle pops out.*


As a conductor, yes; wouldn't do much for his composerly star . . . .

The only Shosty Boulez could record is the 12-tone 14th. He can't acknowledge anything that suggests traditional tonality was valid after 1950.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 24, 2011, 01:27:36 AM
"I only buy from the Yellow label. True sign of quality, don't you know? And THIS - *holds up Naxos CD* - this TRASH - *pinches nose* - it would even soil my chamber pot."

It's funny that Toucan bashes Naxos, then says that the Batiashvili CD on DG was one of the worst he ever heard.

BTW, if Toucan hates DSCH so much, why did he buy that CD in the first place?
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Daverz on April 24, 2011, 02:02:10 AM
BTW, if Toucan hates DSCH so much, why did he buy that CD in the first place?

Because he's a troll?
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brian on April 24, 2011, 02:53:13 PM
"I only buy from the Yellow label. True sign of quality, don't you know? And THIS - *holds up Naxos CD* - this TRASH - *pinches nose* - it would even soil my chamber pot."
*Monocle pops out.*

Speaking of Yellow labels, I own more DG CDs than Hanssler CDs, but it's a lot closer than one would expect.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2011, 02:54:58 PM
BTW, if Toucan hates DSCH so much, why did he buy that CD in the first place?

So he could complain about it.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: jochanaan on April 24, 2011, 03:41:00 PM
The only Shosty Boulez could record is the 12-tone 14th...
Um, if that were true, the esteemed M. Boulez might have trouble even with #14 since, although it's nearly atonal, it's not 12-tone. :)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: ibanezmonster on April 24, 2011, 03:50:43 PM
It's the 13th string quartet that has a tone row in it.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Sandra on April 24, 2011, 11:06:34 PM
Shostakovich definitely isn't fading. But Prokofiev is (sadly).

Many consider Shostakovich to be even more popular than he deserves. Of course, I don't share that view for a second.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 24, 2011, 11:18:38 PM
It's the 13th string quartet that has a tone row in it.

Actually, I think it's the 12th that starts off with a tone row, and then develops in different directions. But the 13th might make use of occasional on-the-spot serialism too. It was fairly common for DSCH in his late, morbid phase to throw in tonerows in odd places, creating a sense of unease.

But Prokofiev is (sadly).

Prokofiev still looks quite popular from where I sit.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: The new erato on April 24, 2011, 11:22:48 PM

The Lisa Batiashvilli CD included in those photos has got to be the single most awful CD I have bought in years; in fact it is the worst CD I have bought since the Credo CD also involving Arvo Part: why must Salonen so often be involved with the worst the recording industry has to offer these days? What kind of public does he expect to attract with low-quality CD's like that? Is it worth it?
In short; Reviewers in International Record Review and Gramophone who both voted it amont "best of month". According to the latest issue of G it was the months single best issue IIRC.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Sandra on April 25, 2011, 12:03:17 AM

Prokofiev still looks quite popular from where I sit.

I don't doubt it. You're in Russia. :)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2011, 04:12:04 AM
The BSO performed the Prokofiev Sixth earlier this season, a dynamite concert.

The xylophone tattoo in the Shostakovich Fourteenth (“On Watch”) is a “tone-row,” though as others have marked, Shostakovich makes his own compositional use of it.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 09:19:27 AM
I don't listen to Shostakovich as much as I used to and not because I dislike his music but because my mind is preoccupied with other composers. I think he is more popular right now than in any other time. People are discovering his music everyday whether through the concert hall, a recording, or the radio. His star is still rising.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Chaszz on April 25, 2011, 05:13:34 PM

...I once met at a concert a pair of 20-something African-Americans with baggy blue jeans and red boxer shorts and chains and the like, who said they made sure to hear every live Shostakovich piece offered in Houston. What other composer can brag of that?

Snoop Dogg.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: ibanezmonster on April 25, 2011, 08:17:18 PM
Actually, I think it's the 12th that starts off with a tone row, and then develops in different directions. But the 13th might make use of occasional on-the-spot serialism too. It was fairly common for DSCH in his late, morbid phase to throw in tonerows in odd places, creating a sense of unease.
I just looked it up on wikipedia because I couldn't remember which one it was. Probably in both.


I once met at a concert a pair of 20-something African-Americans with baggy blue jeans and red boxer shorts and chains and the like, who said they made sure to hear every live Shostakovich piece offered in Houston. What other composer can brag of that?
That's pretty cool...
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: jochanaan on April 25, 2011, 09:17:52 PM
The BSO performed the Prokofiev Sixth earlier this season, a dynamite concert.

The xylophone tattoo in the Shostakovich Fourteenth (“On Watch”) is a “tone-row,” though as others have marked, Shostakovich makes his own compositional use of it.

I, uh, sit corrected. :)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: eyeresist on April 26, 2011, 02:29:22 AM
Um, if that were true, the esteemed M. Boulez might have trouble even with #14 since, although it's nearly atonal, it's not 12-tone. :)
I'm not that familiar with the 14th. Wikipedia says "All but two of the movements include themes using tone rows".
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Luke on April 26, 2011, 02:57:03 AM
Using tone rows is not the same as being twelve-tone or atonal, though. Obvious, but it needs to be pointed out. None of these late Shostakovich pieces are twelve tone or atonal.

Was just reading an analysis of the wonderful 12th quartet yesterday, coincidentally - the use of tone-rows here is very unusual, and it's not even really correct to call them rows (with the implication of a recurrent, rigid intervallic structure), as their interval structure is not consistent. It's really the momentary effect of chromatic saturation that Shostakovich is looking for with these brief 'rows', and he uses it as one extreme of a tonal continuum which encompasses the most euphonious tonality too. The opening 'row', for instance, finishes with a dominant-tonic into an entirely tonal D flat, and the only relevance it has to what follows immediately after is that the D flat major is inflected expressively by semitones which could be seen as hinting back to the 'row'.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: mjwal on April 29, 2011, 09:29:31 AM
It's tempting to say, no, not fading, just faded - but I will resist! Though actually after all the fuss about the 10th on Naxos by Petrenko I decided to give it a try... ??? I found it nasty, brutal and long - musically uninspiring. Guess I'll have to get Mravinsky out and try to recover that first fine enthusiasm I felt back in the 60s. Nielsen, whom I discovered at the same time (the Bernstein #5) now seems to me to be far greater.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brian on April 29, 2011, 12:57:30 PM
I found it nasty, brutal and long - musically uninspiring.

Try the preludes and fugues for solo piano. Entirely the opposite in every sense and every expressive quality - unless you listen to them all in one sitting, and then they're also long.

What really moves me about Shostakovich is that he contained so many styles in one persona: the anti-Soviet terror of Symphonies 4-5, 10, the personal anguish of some of the quartets and late symphonies, the ironic (or not) jubilation of Symphonies 6 and 9, the light-hearted jazz suite and ballet writer, the timeless master of the preludes and fugues...
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: mjwal on April 30, 2011, 11:58:17 AM
Try the preludes and fugues for solo piano. Entirely the opposite in every sense and every expressive quality - unless you listen to them all in one sitting, and then they're also long.

What really moves me about Shostakovich is that he contained so many styles in one persona: the anti-Soviet terror of Symphonies 4-5, 10, the personal anguish of some of the quartets and late symphonies, the ironic (or not) jubilation of Symphonies 6 and 9, the light-hearted jazz suite and ballet writer, the timeless master of the preludes and fugues...
Oh, I have tried them, and the quartets, operas etc. I was merely expressing my bemusement at my own reaction to a work that, after the 1st cello concerto and the 5th symphony was one of the pieces that bowled me over back in the day (during the 60s) - it has faded for me, at least till I listen to another performance  :-\.  P.S. "Nasty, brutal and long" was of course a humorous spin on Hobbes' description of human life without government.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Philoctetes on May 01, 2011, 03:57:05 PM
Oh, I have tried them, and the quartets, operas etc. I was merely expressing my bemusement at my own reaction to a work that, after the 1st cello concerto and the 5th symphony was one of the pieces that bowled me over back in the day (during the 60s) - it has faded for me, at least till I listen to another performance  :-\.  P.S. "Nasty, brutal and long" was of course a humorous spin on Hobbes' description of human life without government.

To the Prelude and Fugues, I completely agreed with you until I heard Jenny Lin's recording, which was so light, bright, and crisp. I think that's really the key to a lot of works. You have to find the recording that works for you. (To give a more extreme example, I couldn't stand Beethoven's 9th until I saw Bernstein's performance of it.)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mn Dave on May 20, 2011, 10:03:54 AM
"Is Shostakovich fading?"

Yes. Yes, he is...
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: karlhenning on May 20, 2011, 10:15:17 AM
He isn't fading, his optics just keep getting stronger . . . .
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mn Dave on May 20, 2011, 10:17:38 AM
Out with the new! In with the old!
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mn Dave on May 20, 2011, 10:22:17 AM
I've noticed you (Mn Dave) and Gurn have those nifty CD lineups in your signatures.  How do you do dat?

 8)

I don't know how Gurn does it but mine are the latest updates to my rateyourmusic account. Once you have an account there, you can link to this feature.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mn Dave on May 20, 2011, 10:32:58 AM
Hmmm ... I've got a rateyourmusic account that I have not done much with.  Maybe I'll look into to this widget.

Thanks.

 :)

Sure. The link to it will be somewhere on your main page.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2011, 10:59:54 AM
Hmmm ... I've got a rateyourmusic account that I have not done much with.  Maybe I'll look into to this widget.

Thanks.

 :)

I actually make mine in CorelDraw, since I didn't know about that cool widget that Dave (and now you?) use. I'll look into it though.

8)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mn Dave on May 20, 2011, 11:32:35 AM
I actually make mine in CorelDraw, since I didn't know about that cool widget that Dave (and now you?) use. I'll look into it though.

Gurn, first you have to open an account and then catalog your record collection. Oh, and since yours is mostly classical, you'll have to update most of the information to the database yourself since there's not much there yet.  :P
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2011, 05:36:20 AM
ROFL. You're just throwing hate at Shostakovich because Shostakovich, like all great artists, requires effort from his audience.  No one requires you to make the effort for any artist you do not wish, of course;  but your scorn means nothing, apart from its occasional amusement value.
 
Part of why your little rants about Shostakovich are so utterly droll, is that there are plenty of us who admire the great artistry of both Shostakovich and Boulez.  'Tis a tiny mind which imagines that it has got be one or the other.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: ibanezmonster on December 14, 2011, 06:21:49 AM
I like Shostakovich, Boulez, and Henning.
Not sure if you are just trying to be silly/funny or not while pretending to serious...
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brian on December 14, 2011, 04:19:55 PM
Boulez - like all great artists - requires effort from his audience.

As do Shostakovich and indeed Tchaikovsky, but clearly because of the surface attractiveness you impute in their music (though there is much of Shostakovich which it would be preposterous to call attractiveness), you aren't willing to see that that effort is required. If Shostakovich failed to speak in a language which was new (a thing, again, which some of his work quite clearly disproves), not everyone needs to. Brahms, for instance, was not as harmonically daring compared to Herzogenberg and Svendsen as Boulez was compared to, say, R. Strauss or Atterberg. Would you fault Brahms, who rejected the musical "progress" of his era to write symphonies instead of Gesamtkunstwerk, for his imitation of the past and his vulgarity?

The rise of Shostakovich, in other words, is little more than an expression of the complete collapse of judgment, discrimination and taste that characterize these times - and therefore a symptom of decadence.

The rise of Dan Brown, the Black Eyed Peas, Katharine Jenkins, Stephenie Meyer, Newton Gingrich, Marine Le Pen, and fashion designers who think the '80s should come back: these, surely, are signs of decadence. Not the rise in global audience esteem of a composer who dared to write music which is both appreciated without recourse to textbooks and crafted at the highest possible level.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brewski on December 14, 2011, 05:09:56 PM
Perhaps it is for the best mods failed to quell the outpouring of abuse exemplified on this thread; so that visitors if this site gets any see for themselves Shostakovich is not a composer who can be upheld on his merits.

The rise of Shostakovich since the 1970's is little more than a function of the rise of that new-fangled public of semi-literate listeners that occured at that time, people who come from pop and still listen mostly to pop, people who claim Star Wars as classical music, people who fail to distinguish between the imitation and the original, between vulgarity and refinement - people who settle for Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich and Arvo Pärt because Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich and Pärt are easy, people throw hate at Boulez because Boulez - like all great artists - requires effort from his audience. The rise of Shostakovich, in other words, is little more than an expression of the complete collapse of judgment, discrimination and taste that characterize these times - and therefore a symptom of decadence.

Uh...right.

There are too many refutable points here to make them all, but for now: just sorry you don't find spiritual nourishment in Shostakovich. In my book, the string quartet cycle alone is evidence of his brilliance.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mirror Image on December 14, 2011, 06:59:19 PM
Perhaps it is for the best mods failed to quell the outpouring of abuse exemplified on this thread; so that visitors if this site gets any see for themselves Shostakovich is not a composer who can be upheld on his merits.

The rise of Shostakovich since the 1970's is little more than a function of the rise of that new-fangled public of semi-literate listeners that occured at that time, people who come from pop and still listen mostly to pop, people who claim Star Wars as classical music, people who fail to distinguish between the imitation and the original, between vulgarity and refinement - people who settle for Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich and Arvo Pärt because Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich and Pärt are easy, people throw hate at Boulez because Boulez - like all great artists - requires effort from his audience. The rise of Shostakovich, in other words, is little more than an expression of the complete collapse of judgment, discrimination and taste that characterize these times - and therefore a symptom of decadence.

This is simply NOT true and only reflects poorly on you. I like Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich, and Part, but obviously for such different reasons. Each of these composers require effort much like Schoenberg and Berg require effort. There are many people who do like Boulez's music and also like Shostakovich's music. It is very possible to like both composers. I'm not a fan of Boulez's music because I'm not attracted to the aesthetic and the kind of thought it conveys, which to me seems more caught up in the mind than in the heart, but this is just my own tastes. About as far out as I get is Schoenberg's atonal music.

People enjoy what they enjoy and it's as simple as that. Who the hell are you to make any kind of judgement on them anyway? Nobody here has anything to prove to you. You need to simply get over yourself and learn to accept that not everybody shares the same ideals as you.

Boy, now I'm in the mood for Shostakovich's Symphony No. 11 for some odd reason. Oh yeah, that's right, because I LOVE Shostakovich! :D
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Jeffrey Smith on December 14, 2011, 07:20:00 PM

Shostakovich is indeed what the Soviet authorities expected of him - a composer for the mediocrities - a composer who cannot offend the sorts of lower level bureaucrats who rose to the top under Lenin's prodding - and more recently the semi-educated public that has been brought to the Classical in the Anglo-Saxon world, by publicists misled by a wrong-headed ideology.

Josquin, you know you're not supposed to hack the accounts of other GMG members.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 14, 2011, 10:06:35 PM

 - a composer who cannot offend the sorts of lower level bureaucrats who rose to the top under Lenin's prodding -

The funny thing about this statement is that one of the things Shostakovich undoubtedly did was "offend the sorts of lower level bureaucrats who rose to the top under Lenin's prodding" (and the higher-level ones too!).

Toucan, we get it - you don't like him. You don't have to say it 100 times.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Hattoff on December 14, 2011, 11:29:45 PM
I shall take Toucan's side, I like Shostakovich but why go with the herd >:D

Dumbing down? Just listen to BBC radio 3, it's for three year olds. It's only the jazzers who talk like adults 8)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Geo Dude on December 15, 2011, 02:58:42 AM
Josquin, you know you're not supposed to hack the accounts of other GMG members.

 ;D

This also gave me that special Josquin 'vibe':

Quote
The rise of Shostakovich, in other words, is little more than an expression of the complete collapse of judgment, discrimination and taste that characterize these times - and therefore a symptom of decadence.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 15, 2011, 06:47:46 AM
Yes, Shostakovich's music is fading...for example the mysterious beauty of the final chord fading into silence in his symphony No.15, or the wonderful fading piano and viola in the Viola Sonata...
 ;)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2011, 07:32:34 AM
Just listen to BBC radio 3, it's for three year olds.

It's all relative.  I once played Le marteau sans maître for a four-month-old (true story from Buffalo).  So a three-year-old audience is already seasoned.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2011, 07:40:36 AM
Yes, Shostakovich's music is fading...for example the mysterious beauty of the final chord fading into silence in his symphony No.15, or the wonderful fading piano and viola in the Viola Sonata...
 ;)

Way to make lemonade, dude!
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: jowcol on December 15, 2011, 07:47:53 AM
Josquin, you know you're not supposed to hack the accounts of other GMG members.

Given the disdain for film music and non-"art music", I saw  the stylistic handiwork of another highly revered poster in this thread. 

I'm sure that McDonalds is going to offer the McShostakovich soon to finish his dissolution into meaninglessness.

Actually, to return to the topic of the thread-- it's hard to be objectively quantify this-- yes we can look at polls, best of lists, but  this creates a paradox.  If less people rate him highly, he's fading.  If more people rate him highly, he's the next Brittney Spears with KFed as a backup dancer. 

There are several works of his I've found that don't seem, to me, to justify their length-- but there is always room on my shelf for him.  (The 10th if nothing else....)




Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Jeffrey Smith on December 15, 2011, 07:54:42 AM

(Even as the mostly low quality of the defenses of Shostakovich provided here corroborates vindicates those who say Shostakovich is not a composer for sophisticated people)

In contrast to the views of Stalin and Zhdanov, who attacked Shostakovich because they thought his music was too sophisticated and did not have enough popular appeal.

There are a certain number of composers who produced music of such high quality that they need no defense--Byrd, Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Rachmaninov spring to mind.  Shostakovich is a member of this group.  And indeed, attacking them (as opposed to frankly admitting you don't particularly like their style and moving on to other music) is a good sign of musical ignorance.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Geo Dude on December 15, 2011, 08:14:33 AM
Actually, to return to the topic of the thread-- it's hard to be objectively quantify this-- yes we can look at polls, best of lists, but  this creates a paradox.  If less people rate him highly, he's fading.  If more people rate him highly, he's the next Brittney Spears with KFed as a backup dancer. 

Exactly.  Toucan claims that Shostakovitch is becoming less popular because he's an inferior composer; when evidence is presented that he actually is popular, Toucan shifts gears (and the goal posts) by claiming that his popularity is evidence of his inferiority.  The argument is not quite circular, but more of a figure-8 that he can go on arguing for an eternity.  Each time evidence is presented that he's wrong about one claim, he simply jumps to the other side.

By the way, I can't help but notice that he still hasn't provided evidence that Shostakovitch is fading.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2011, 08:20:48 AM
. . . In my book, the string quartet cycle alone is evidence of his brilliance.

This recalls a point I meant to make yesterday, Bruce: the OP proposes this bizarre idea that Shostakovich's popularity is somehow a matter of "vulgarity," that it is "unsophisticated" people who admire his music.

Let's accept this quaint idea for argument's sake.  Who are some of these notably "unsophisticated" people who are foisting Shostakovich's music upon the world?

The list only begins with:  Mstislav Rostropovich, Tatiana Nikolayeva, the Juilliard String Quartet, David Oistrakh, Karel Ančerl, Kurt Masur, István Kertész, Riccardo Muti.

 
Obviously a rabble of light-weights . . . .
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Brian on December 15, 2011, 08:31:39 AM
I'm sure that McDonalds is going to offer the McShostakovich soon to finish his dissolution into meaninglessness.

The DSCH sandwich: Dutch loaf, salami, capicola, and ham. For the lover of meaty music!
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2011, 08:37:38 AM
Quote from: Sam
Nothing short of catastrophic

Love it! ROFL
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Bulldog on December 15, 2011, 10:07:39 AM
The inclusion of Rachmaninov into the afore mentioned list suffices to discredit the post - as Rachmaninoff (Horowitz's friendship notwistanding) has consistently been rebuked by the most sophisticated folk for his frequent downfalls into hollywood style mishmash and sentimentality.

Now I know why I like Shostakovich and Rachmaninoff - I have little use for sophisticated and aristocratic people.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 15, 2011, 10:18:47 AM
Way to make lemonade, dude!


Well, I'm not sure how to react to threads such as this sometimes. Must be the Jersey sarcasm I inherited.

I don't see how a completed piece of art can "fade" at any point. The public's perception might change with time, perhaps more with a piece of art that was influenced by a political event, but never fade. I feel that once a composer and his music have reached a certain height in popularity (performances, recordings...) and in the public's appreciation, then it will always maintain that position, such as Shostakovich and his music will.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: jowcol on December 15, 2011, 12:18:26 PM
By the way, I can't help but notice that he still hasn't provided evidence that Shostakovitch is fading.

I can produce conclusive evidence that Shostakovich is fading! 
Just look below, and prepare to leave your little world of denial!

Going, going, gone!


(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7145/6517406691_698e802479_z.jpg)


Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2011, 12:23:19 PM
Dmitri Dmitriyevich wouldn't have faded, if he had made sure that his parents kissed at the Enchantment Under the Sea dance!
 
(http://images.wikia.com/bttf/images/3/30/Enchantment_marty.jpg)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: jowcol on December 15, 2011, 12:25:33 PM
And now, for some reason, I envision a technicolor movie, where the KGB and Joseph Stalin are chasing Dorothy and friends through the Kremlin.  they are cornered, and Joe Stalin starts burning the scarecrow with a torch.  Dorothy grabs a bucket of water, trying to put out the fire.  She misses the scarecrow and Stalin, but hits Dmitri Shostakovich, who starts melting away, crying "what a world, what world..."
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Lethevich on December 15, 2011, 12:27:46 PM
So.. how 'bout that violin sonata?

http://www.youtube.com/v/VZCxjBtgT3M http://www.youtube.com/v/C6SDtU4kVpQ
http://www.youtube.com/v/bh9AtdZr6t8 http://www.youtube.com/v/3u95pFnkWwg
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: jowcol on December 15, 2011, 12:36:06 PM
After further research, I identified the cause of the tragedy.  Unfortunately, the Communist Totalitarian Aristocracy washed their composers using plain laundry soap, while the French Intelligentsia used Free and Gentle™ formulated Tide™ to wash their composers.  This is why Shostakovich has faded, while Boulez has maintained his vibrant colors.


(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mStVjggenMQ/TWrVT5nsjaI/AAAAAAAAEPg/pEwxtbBZAPg/s1600/IMG_1658.JPG)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: eyeresist on December 15, 2011, 07:18:49 PM
I saw a few places in the topics the mention of influence, but who, composing today, is influenced by Shostakovitch?

....................... Karl?
 
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Lethevich on December 15, 2011, 07:45:03 PM
I saw a few places in the topics the mention of influence, but who, composing today, is influenced by Shostakovitch?

Aho's debut symphony is Shostakovich worship iirc, and while he has developed a personal style I would say that Dmitri still has a small hand in it. Boris Tishchenko was heavily influenced, and has only just popped his clogs.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: eyeresist on December 15, 2011, 08:04:34 PM
Aho's debut symphony is Shostakovich worship iirc, and while he has developed a personal style I would say that Dmitri still has a small hand in it. Boris Tishchenko was heavily influenced, and has only just popped his clogs.
Schnittke too.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Lethevich on December 15, 2011, 08:52:25 PM
I've not heard Aho, but I will strive to fix that. Wouldn't you say Boris has more in common with Tchaikovsky than Shostakovitch?

Not sure, I haven't heard a huge amount of works - but his 7th symphony came across as DS worship. Although a nice coincidence arises in Boris Tchaikovsky having influences from DS. If we can do dead guys - Einar Englund's primary influence was Shostakovich. I think that the composer's idiom was in the background for many mid-century symphonists. Malcolm Arnold sounds very much like an English version of the composer, although a lot of those associations arose from coincidence.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: eyeresist on December 15, 2011, 09:15:16 PM
Ah.. now there's one where I can hear it clearly. Although, I don't really care for him either.
Well, there's the thing. If you don't care for Shosty or composers who resemble him, you'll tend to avoid/dismiss his descendants.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Lethevich on December 15, 2011, 10:05:07 PM
A further question comes to mind: What is the relative prestige of these composers who have follow DS, coincidental or not and should that matter?

All second-stringers, except perhaps Arnold who though inconsistent wrote much of value. It's a similar case with composers such as Chopin and Tchaikovsky - they have inspired many, but conposers who were so strongly influenced as to write music which sounds like those two are invariably pale shadows. Even Scriabin escaped that phase quite quickly. I think that it is a sign of greatness when your style can inspire others, but not produce masterworks through the mere emulation of it - as the original composer has already exausted all that can be said with the language.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: edward on December 15, 2011, 10:05:36 PM
It may be fair to see that the younger generation are somewhat less Shostakovich-inflected than their forebears. It's a rather vague feeling and one I couldn't back up statistically, but I think many of the younger composers I've heard recently have Ligeti and Sibelius as key influences (spectralism and electronica also seem not uncommon ones, for example in Romitelli).
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 16, 2011, 03:13:33 AM
....................... Karl?

Yes. As with (for instance) Beethoven, there are important lessons I've learnt from his music, which I apply frequently, even though there be little surface similarity between the music I write, and theirs.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mirror Image on February 17, 2012, 08:06:50 PM
Sorry to dig up this older thread, but it still makes me laugh. :D
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: starrynight on February 18, 2012, 03:36:32 AM
The question was brought up whether relative prestige matters, I would say no except for those that don't think for themselves.  There is plenty of good music in the 20th century that just gets ignored.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: The new erato on February 18, 2012, 07:05:28 AM
Sorry to dig up this older thread, but it still makes me laugh. :D
That's all too true. That's because of the laziness of that segment of the public who stick to second-rates like Dmitri Shostakovich...
The laughs are coming fast and furious here.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: The new erato on February 18, 2012, 07:28:01 AM
You are certainly entitled to bray.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: ibanezmonster on February 18, 2012, 07:50:47 AM
Shostakovich isn't a good composer because that guy on that internet forum said he isn't. So, I guess my taste is wrong. Thanks for correcting my taste. Oh yeah, could that guy tell me which composers I should and shouldn't like so I know how to have correct taste in the future?
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mirror Image on February 18, 2012, 08:35:31 AM
That's all too true. That's because of the laziness of that segment of the public who stick to second-rates like Dmitri Shostakovich...

Sounds like somebody still can't stand it that they're dead wrong about Shostakovich. He's far from second-rate. He was a composer of the highest order. One of the most naturally gifted composers this world has ever seen.

He will continue to be popular because his music touches people. I have nine Shostakovich symphony cycles. Popluarlity fading? I think not! Shostakovich's popularity isn't fading just because you, Toucan, say it is.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mirror Image on February 18, 2012, 08:52:47 AM
Shostakovich isn't a good composer because that guy on that internet forum said he isn't. So, I guess my taste is wrong. Thanks for correcting my taste. Oh yeah, could that guy tell me which composers I should and shouldn't like so I know how to have correct taste in the future?

 :P
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 18, 2012, 10:59:22 AM
Is Shostakovich fading?

I suspect not. The Boston Symphony are playing the Fifth Symphony tonight.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Szykneij on February 18, 2012, 11:26:52 AM
Is Shostakovich fading?

I suspect not. The Boston Symphony are playing the Fifth Symphony tonight.


... and just before I read that I was playing a recording of his Trio in e Minor, which does sort of fade at the end with pizzicato notes in the violin and cello part.  Is that what the thread title is about?   0:)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 18, 2012, 04:11:11 PM
... and just before I read that I was playing a recording of his Trio in e Minor, which does sort of fade at the end with pizzicato notes in the violin and cello part.  Is that what the thread title is about?   0:)


Yes, Shostakovich's music is fading...for example the mysterious beauty of the final chord fading into silence in his symphony No.15, or the wonderful fading piano and viola in the Viola Sonata...
 ;)

 ;D
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Geo Dude on February 18, 2012, 05:10:19 PM
Sorry to dig up this older thread, but it still makes me laugh. :D

You may as well enjoy the laughs.  It's quite clear at this point that Toucan has reduced himself to mere trolling.
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: DavidW on February 18, 2012, 05:39:00 PM
We should move on and use this thread to celebrate Shostakovich, turning the thread on it's head! :)

I'm going to be making a Shostakovich purchase very soon, love the conductor (Petrenko), and love the 8th symphony:



Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: PaulR on February 18, 2012, 05:59:53 PM
Quote from: DavidW on Today at 08:39:00 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=18390.msg602809#msg602809)
We should move on and use this thread to celebrate Shostakovich, turning the thread on it's head! :)

I'm going to be making a Shostakovich purchase very soon, love the conductor (Petrenko), and love the 8th symphony:
>(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003DQWPEM.01.L.jpg)


Great recording of a great symphony, that's for sure.

I saw he made a recording of Fleishmann's Rothchild's Violin and Shostakovich's "The Gamblers". 
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Szykneij on February 18, 2012, 06:06:07 PM
... and just before I read that I was playing a recording of his Trio in e Minor, which does sort of fade at the end with pizzicato notes in the violin and cello part.  Is that what the thread title is about?   0:)

Yes, Shostakovich's music is fading...for example the mysterious beauty of the final chord fading into silence in his symphony No.15, or the wonderful fading piano and viola in the Viola Sonata...
 ;)


 ;D   ;D

Hmmm ... perhaps there's more to this fading issue than meets the eye!
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: PaulR on February 18, 2012, 06:07:54 PM
I can't believe people are forgetting the fading of the ending of the 4th symphony!
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: DavidW on February 18, 2012, 07:55:40 PM
Great recording of a great symphony, that's for sure.

Cool Paul! :)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mirror Image on February 18, 2012, 08:02:17 PM
Is Shostakovich fading?

I suspect not. The Boston Symphony are playing the Fifth Symphony tonight.


Who is conducting Mr. Henning?
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mirror Image on February 18, 2012, 08:04:40 PM
You may as well enjoy the laughs.  It's quite clear at this point that Toucan has reduced himself to mere trolling.

Yes, you're right, but I agree with Dave. We should use this thread to celebrate Shostakovich instead of being concerned with the OP's original topic of discussion, which was nothing more than an opinion of ignorance and indifference.
Title: Re: .
Post by: starrynight on February 19, 2012, 02:30:53 AM
There a few points I'd like to make on this thread.

One is that Shostakovich obviously deserves some respect, just about any composer does really.  And it is possible to appreciate some of his music even if you don't love his music like some.  Then again just because someone loves his music doesn't mean that someone else has to, not everybody is the same as you and you have to accept that.

Secondly though it's interesting that those who say they really aren't concerned about someone not liking his music that much are actually showing quite a lot of concern bumping up an old thread.  They actually seem as concerned about his prestige as the person posting the thread in the first place, it's just they have a different opinion on it.

So ultimately is this thread about the music or is it just something that people want to turn into a flippant battle between someone who likes it or doesn't like it?  More the second I suspect.
Title: Re: .
Post by: knight66 on February 19, 2012, 02:46:35 AM
I think this often revolves around the old mindsets of; I like it = great / I don't like it = rubbish.

I am not too keen on quite a chunk of his compositions: but I am happy to believe he falls into the 'great' category. I don't like sushi, but that does not mean it is somehow defective as food.

The problems in these threads are when there is a claim that some well renowned composer is defective, claimed usually on the say so of someone who provides no evidence beyond opinion. Then the threads spiral down and become personalised.

Mike
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Geo Dude on February 19, 2012, 04:59:42 AM
Yes, you're right, but I agree with Dave. We should use this thread to celebrate Shostakovich instead of being concerned with the OP's original topic of discussion, which was nothing more than an opinion of ignorance and indifference.

Well, I considered the possibility of turning the thread into a discussion of "Is Toucan Fading?" but this seems a more productive area of discussion. :P

By and large I have no interest in 20th century 'modernist' composers -- there's nothing wrong with them, of course, the musical language simply doesn't appeal to me.  (There are a few exceptions, though.)  In spite of this, and in spite of the sales I've made of 20th century classical music that I loved when I was a teenager (Ligeti, Bartok, etc.) I will never under any circumstances let go of my cycle of Shostakovitch's string quartets (Fitzwilliam quartet).  Those quartets touch a place -- for better or worse, as that place can often lead to serious depression -- that very few other pieces of music can.  Shostakovitch does indeed touch people.  Even young men with the soul of an old fogey such as myself who have conservative tastes. ;D
Title: Re: .
Post by: DavidW on February 19, 2012, 06:28:36 AM
I don't like sushi, but that does not mean it is somehow defective as food.

I can't believe you don't like sushi!  I love it!  The problem is that good sushi is pricey.
Title: Re: .
Post by: PaulR on February 19, 2012, 06:33:06 AM
I can't believe you don't like sushi!  I love it!  The problem is that good sushi is pricey.
I love sushi, but somehow, I don't trust the sushi at Kroger here in Bowling Green. (Most likely, I am crazy)
Title: Re: .
Post by: DavidW on February 19, 2012, 06:38:58 AM
I love sushi, but somehow, I don't trust the sushi at Kroger here in Bowling Green. (Most likely, I am crazy)

If it's the imitation crab meat stuff, you won't get sick off of California rolls. Salmon makes for a great roll, and is easy to find fresh. :)
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 21, 2012, 01:56:16 AM
Perhaps "toucan" himself is fading?

Very perceptive. In fact, he's faded away completely  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Is Shostakovich fading?
Post by: Mirror Image on February 21, 2012, 03:04:51 PM
I, for one, never cared whether you like his music or not.  :D

Same here. Well said.
Title: Re: . [was: Is Shostakovich fading?]
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2012, 07:13:19 AM
Very perceptive. In fact, he's faded away completely  ;D

Sarge

At least, in these curious attempts to modify his ID, and the title of the thread, as minimalist typography, he has come to be forthrightly amusing!