GMG Classical Music Forum

The Back Room => The Diner => Topic started by: Bonehelm on May 24, 2007, 08:52:55 AM

Title: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on May 24, 2007, 08:52:55 AM
Hi guys. What do you listen to music on? I mean CD player, computer, Hi-fi, ipod, car, etc. I listen to everything on my computer (It has a logitech Z-2300, THX certified, over 90dB SnR and over 400watts of total power!) and I'm loving every minute of it. I have a hi-fi system too (Sony) but I found that the computer's speakers are clearer in the high register and the bass isn't distorted as much.

I think you guys must have some $100,000 set or something. You guys seem to be able to tell the smallest detail in classical music. :) Share with us what you have.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: BachQ on May 24, 2007, 08:56:37 AM
computer
iPod
home stereo (Harmon Kardon)
DVD player
car radio
car CD player
cell phone
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 24, 2007, 08:57:07 AM
SONY portable CD player (6 years old, quite bulky, but excellent sound - MUCH better than crappy Panasonic) plus either Bose headphones (non-noise-cancelling, sells for $140) or Sennheiser HD515.

Not the greatest but I am happy.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kullervo on May 24, 2007, 10:15:55 AM
Ipod and Bose tri-port headphones (same as Wagnerite, I think). The iPod is strictly for the house, though. I never go out with it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 24, 2007, 10:16:15 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on May 24, 2007, 08:52:55 AM
Hi guys. What do you listen to music on? I mean CD player, computer, Hi-fi, ipod, car, etc. I listen to everything on my computer (It has a logitech Z-2300, THX certified, over 90dB SnR and over 400watts of total power!) and I'm loving every minute of it. I have a hi-fi system too (Sony) but I found that the computer's speakers are clearer in the high register and the bass isn't distorted as much.

I think you guys must have some $100,000 set or something. You guys seem to be able to tell the smallest detail in classical music. :) Share with us what you have.

You must have strange ears I am sure. What's that Sony hifi system of yours if it is beaten by crappy computer systems.
THX is just a lot of noise, and ugly noise too! ;D
And 400 watts of power doesn't say anything, that just a macho phrase.
How do you get the bass distorted, by using all the power, volume knob on maximum.
Tis a riddle how some people listen to their system.
That's mine. Or one of my systems.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 24, 2007, 10:17:07 AM
 :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 24, 2007, 10:20:23 AM
 :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on May 24, 2007, 10:22:26 AM
At home I listen to music on three different stereos of differing quality.  My main system is an all-Naim rig (except for the speakers) and it lives in a dedicated, treated listening room.  My second system is another, lower cost all-Naim (except for speakers) system.  My third system is fed from the second and is for another room and gets relatively little use.  All three sound excellent or better and allow me to fully appreciate any recording.  (I also have a cheap "executive" system in the garage, but I never listen to classical music on that stereo.)

At work I listen to a walkman.  I never listen on a computer.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: mahlertitan on May 24, 2007, 10:22:37 AM
my black 8 gig ipod nano.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on May 24, 2007, 10:32:09 AM
Main system

MS 5 main speakers
(http://www.hifiklubben.com/image/prod/DALIMS5AL_1_m.jpg)
Conrad-Johnson MF 2500 power amp
(http://www.hifihuset.se/catalog/images/mf2500.jpg)
Wadia 830 preamp/CD
(http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/pics/wadia_830.jpg)

+ slightly smaller secondary system, iPOD, Portable CDplayer, car systems and various computers

Nice setup Harry!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sonic1 on May 24, 2007, 10:32:24 AM
1. Stereo at home (particularly for vinyl)
2. CD player in kitchen
3. ipod plugged into tape converter in old car
4. ipod while running

(the ipod is new for me, and I am mixed on my reluctant entry into this technology, but it has improved my running and workout hours immensely)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 24, 2007, 10:40:58 AM
Quote from: erato on May 24, 2007, 10:32:09 AM
Main system

MS 5 main speakers
(http://www.hifiklubben.com/image/prod/DALIMS5AL_1_m.jpg)
Conrad-Johnson MF 2500 power amp
(http://www.hifihuset.se/catalog/images/mf2500.jpg)
Wadia 830 preamp/CD
(http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/pics/wadia_830.jpg)

+ slightly smaller secondary system, iPOD, Portable CDplayer, car systems and various computers

Nice setup Harry!

Yours too my friend.
The wadia is a gem.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: beclemund on May 24, 2007, 10:57:47 AM
A 60GB iPod 5G with Etymotic ER6 for the commute to work and Grado SR60 for at home.... the main system is undergoing a transformation that may take some time before I develop the necessary level of motivation as the iPod does well enough.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on May 24, 2007, 11:24:54 AM
Quote from: Harry on May 24, 2007, 10:16:15 AM
You must have strange ears I am sure. What's that Sony hifi system of yours if it is beaten by crappy computer systems.
THX is just a lot of noise, and ugly noise too! ;D
And 400 watts of power doesn't say anything, that just a macho phrase.
How do you get the bass distorted, by using all the power, volume knob on maximum.
Tis a riddle how some people listen to their system.
That's mine. Or one of my systems.

Not really. The THX set was recommended by a classical music magazine (can't remember the name, it's in Italian). It sounds really good, and the sony Hi-fi is just not made for classical music. I listen to heavy metal on it  ;D because it's noisy no matter what.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Papy Oli on May 24, 2007, 12:03:02 PM
Mostly the Headphone system :
Arcam CD73 > Project Headbox Headphone Amp > Sennheiser HD650 > Sheer Bliss  ;D

Otherwise a Denon Mini system if i listen on speakers.  :)


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on May 24, 2007, 12:16:27 PM
Harry & Erato have nice gear.

I listen on my computer during the day with a half decent system. Half decent systen in the car.

Serious listening = Pioneer 969 universal player > Yamaha RX666 receiver > Mission V63 floorstanders

Not interested in an iPod.

I'd love to upgrade my main system...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on May 24, 2007, 12:19:18 PM
As an acoustics engineer I have build a sound system of maximum sound quality compared to the cost. I have a 5.1 system of 5 identic small speakers of 6 litres (self-constructed but not self-designed) and a passive subwoofer (55 litres, also self-constructed but not self-designed) for frequencies 25-50 Hz. This kind of system works well with both music and movies. The loudspeakers are put carefully in my room about 1 m away from the walls. All these loudspeakers cost only about 1000 euros total! The loudspeakers have very flat frequency response and good power response. The sound is neutral. The only "weakness" is low sensitivity, only 81 dB/W/m. All speaker elements are by Norwegian SEAS.

(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5131/hifi62si2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us) (http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2032/hifi552lf7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Many Finns have build their own Hifi 6/2 speakers. This is what it looks like. On the right is a pic of my passive Hifi 55/2 subwoofer.


My amplifier is NAD T762. It has plenty of dynamic power and the sound is fantastic, extremely controlled and analytic but never clinical. The amplifier was 1400 euros but I got it for 1000 euros.  :)

(http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/3808/nadt762za1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


My CD-player is Denon DCD-735. It has served me well for 11 years never skipping on any CD! It cost about 300 euros.

(http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/4246/dcd735zc7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


My DVD/DVD-Audio/SACD-player is Pioneer DV-575A. It cost only about 200 euros and serves me very well as a region-free DVD-player and SACD player.

(http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/1352/dv575pioneercr1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


My headphones are Sennheiser HD-580 (200 euros).

(http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/6466/580rg2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


For outdoor listening I have iPod shuffle 512MB (100 euros) with Sennheiser PX-200 headphones (60 euros).

(http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/4682/vermeetbr3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on May 24, 2007, 12:31:51 PM
Holy cow 71dB. Since when did ipod shuffles cost 100 euros? It's only 70USD at where I live.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on May 24, 2007, 12:35:37 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on May 24, 2007, 12:31:51 PM
Holy cow 71dB. Since when did ipod shuffles cost 100 euros? It's only 70USD at where I live.

I bought it almost 2 years ago and Finland is much more expensive country than US.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Don on May 24, 2007, 12:45:21 PM
I'm not much of an audio fantatic, but I try to have something decent everywhere I might be:

Bedroom - Panasonic Box in back of the bed's headboard.
Computer Room - The usual stuff plus Altec/Lansing speakers.
Living Room - Denon SACD player, B & W Speakers.
Kitchen - BoomBox
Family Room - I just put discs into the DVD player.
Auto - Panasonic CD player
Bathrooms - BoomBoxes
Headphones - Sennheiser

Most of my listening is in the living room, auto and headphones.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dtwilbanks on May 24, 2007, 01:02:23 PM
iPod/Computer/Vehicle

I have a home stereo but never use it.  Maybe because it's in the same room as the TV.  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on May 24, 2007, 01:09:46 PM
I've recently rejoined the MP3 generation (having given it a miss for most of last year, following three years of experiments with numerous and costly DAPs/lossy formats), and bought myself this ridiculously small, 2Gb Zen V player from Creative:

(http://www.empiredirect.co.uk/images/products/500/CRV/ZEN-V-PLUS-2GB.jpg)

I always go for this brand of DAP, as the sound quality beats the pants off every iPod I've ever heard. On this, I can carry about 20 CDs in variable bitrate ranging from around 160kbps to 320kbps. I have about 11Gb of music on my PC HDD, so I just switch content whenever I tire of listening to whatever's currently on the player. I add to my MP3 collection from various sources, but principally, from eMusic (http://www.emusic.com) (at the rate of about 9-12 CDs a month), as well as by ripping from my own CD collection (not that I'll ever have the patience to rip all 1000+ discs!).

My headphones of choice for on the move are these Sennheiser PX200s:

(http://www.tomshardware.hu/consumer/06q1/060210/images/sennheiser_px200.jpg)

They're surprisingly neutral-sounding for a pair costing around £22-£25, and unbelievably lightweight.

My home 'hifi' doesn't deserve either the name or a mention; and my SigmaTek XM400 Pro DVD/CD/SACD/MP3/DiVX/JPEG/...pretty-much-everything player ain't much better, either:

(http://www.erenumerique.fr/images/av/20050701/Sigmatek_XM400.jpg)

My home headphones, on the other hand, are MUCH better. I got these AKG K501s for just £60 delivered (they're worth £140+ new) from an eBay seller, and they arrived in immaculate condition:

(http://novamusic.pl/images/C_K501_1.jpg)

They sound crystal clear, and while some people complain about less-than-ideal bass response, I've had no problems. Indeed, does one want walloping bass with most classical music?

And when I'm surfing the internet? I just whack a CD into my crappy, five-year-old PC (albeit with upgraded, Samsung DVD drives) and listen through a media player like WMP or Media Monkey.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: orbital on May 24, 2007, 02:05:25 PM
portable listening on this:
(http://www.cowonamerica.com/images/products/x5/x5_02.jpg)
It is 60GB's, almost full  :-\ I think I have a couple of GB's left in there. The sound is considerably better than the iPod, plus it reads every music format out there.

I try to use this headphone as much as it looks ridiculously huge  ;D
(http://shop.sennheiserusa.com/retail2002/images/catalog/HD280Pro_normal.jpg)

other times, I use the tiny mx500.

At home, I have a very basic system which I use for movies more than anything else. An Onkyo receiver and surround system. My ears are not sensitive at all though, so when I want to listen to something loud, it suffices. I can hardly differentiate between a high quality hi fi and a basic set up such as mine. This is both good and bad I guess.

I have been using a CD player less and less though. I have all my music perfectly organized in 192 or higher kps on my computer and a digital connection to the receiver is quickly taking over the practice of changing (not to mention finding) CD's  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on May 24, 2007, 02:26:35 PM
Orbital, what cans are those? And are they closed-back?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: orbital on May 24, 2007, 02:37:04 PM
Quote from: Mark on May 24, 2007, 02:26:35 PM
Orbital, what cans are those? And are they closed-back?
they are Sennheiser HD280 Pros. They are closed, and they produce a very natural sound with no accentuations to bo seen across the spectrum. And very comfy too :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on May 24, 2007, 02:57:04 PM
Thanks! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: toledobass on May 24, 2007, 07:25:51 PM
At home is a Cambridge Audio amp and CD player and a Creek audio headphone amp along with Senn 580's.

For the road is a Sony CD player,  a go-vibe amp and senn 280's.


Allan
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sonic1 on May 24, 2007, 09:18:10 PM
I usually listen to music on crack, but sometimes weed is ok too. If I can't score that, I stick to cheap wisky.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Danny on May 25, 2007, 12:54:59 AM
A walkman with all of the aformentioned by sonic1. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The Mad Hatter on May 25, 2007, 02:03:02 AM
orbital: where did you get that portable music device? How much was it?

I listen on my rubbish mp3 player, but then I'm usually listening on the train so can't hear too much detail anyway.

If I'm listening to CDs, it's on my old Sony Discman, because firstly I find the sound remarkably crisp and clean, and secondly, I don't want to bother my housemates.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 25, 2007, 02:17:50 AM
This is my secondary system.

Avalon wall speakers.
Meridian 508 24 bit player.
Nu Vista Musical Fidelity cd player
MF 308 amp.
Nordost cabling and interlinks.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 25, 2007, 02:18:58 AM
The rest :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2007, 04:16:52 AM
In the main listening room:

Canton Vento 807 speakers
Thorens TD 320 turntable with a Shure V15 cartridge
Sony S444ESII tuner
Nakamichi Dragon cassette deck
Denon DCD 685 CD player
Harmon Kardon 970 integrated amp (a cheap, quick replacement until I get my behemoth 25-year-old Yamaha amplifier repaired or replaced with something comparable)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/goodmusic/System.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/goodmusic/System2.jpg)


In my den I have a Denon integrated amp and a HK CD player (which I really hate...it's not long for this world) and a pair of Polk bookshelf speakers:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/goodmusic/System3a.jpg)


Sony systems in the cars.


Sarge

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 25, 2007, 04:43:55 AM
Office system.

Meridian 508 20 bit, cd player.
Tannoy speakers, Saturn S6LCR, hanging from the wall.
Nakamichi amp/tuner RE 1.
Nordost cabling and interlinks.


Its quite a good set-up to my surprise.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 25, 2007, 05:00:12 AM
And this one in my bedroom.
The Philips Streamium.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on May 25, 2007, 06:39:38 AM

Harry, your wife looks pleased with the stereo.  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: orbital on May 25, 2007, 06:44:55 AM
Quote from: The Mad Hatter on May 25, 2007, 02:03:02 AM
orbital: where did you get that portable music device? How much was it?


I got it from Amazon for about $250
http://www.amazon.com/iAudio-X5-Multimedia-Player-Black/dp/B000BKPK90
though, they seem to be out of stock for now. You can find it at other retailers I am sure.

My main reason with going with this player is that it needs no interface, and files are organizes like a regular hard drive with a folder/sub/subsub/... hierarchy. Very easy to organize music that way :)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: greg on May 25, 2007, 06:56:58 AM
QuoteRe: What do you listen to music on?
the toilet
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 25, 2007, 08:39:55 AM
Quote from: George on May 25, 2007, 06:39:38 AM
Harry, your wife looks pleased with the stereo.  ;D

Well she is, my friend! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on May 25, 2007, 09:03:01 AM
My preference is vinyl, which I listen to on my Nottingham Interspace turntable:

(http://www.bluebirdmusic.com/images/InterspaceHR.gif)

with this very weird but wonderful tonearm by RS labs:

(http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0701/rs2a.jpg)

...and a Denon DL103 cartridge.

When I have to listen to CD's, I use a Sony universal player that has been modified by Tube Research Labs (http://www.tuberesearchlabs.com/).

My preamp is a Bottlehead Foreplay, which I made from a kit (http://www.bottlehead.com/), and my amp is a pair of 300B SET monoblocks that I made myself (with extensive help from some more experienced friends).  Those are not operational at the moment, however, as I am in the midst of building the speakers, Lowther Medallion III horns to be exact  (http://www.lowther-america.com/):

(http://www.lowther-america.com/M3-2%20small.jpg)

...so until that project is complete (which is taking much longer than I expected), I'm listening thru headphones.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: techniquest on May 25, 2007, 11:21:45 PM
I'm always mindful of budget in all circumstances as I am not particularly highly paid. However, I like to research as much as I can so I can get the best quality for the price. That being said, my music listening is achieved on the following:

1. At home:
Sony MHC-S9D surround-sound Hi-fi component system - had this for about 10 years now and have been very happy with the huge sound range and quality of reproduction. Added to this is my old Aiwa turntable - couldn't be without my records!
Home-built computer system with Soundmax audio and an Advent speaker/subwoofer speaker set-up.

2. In the car:
JVC KD-LH811 cd/mp3/radio system. I probably listen to music more in the car than anywhere else.

3. Out & about
Acoustic Solutions FM6672 MP3 player. Only 1gb, but I change the music frequently and bought for a song from Argos at a mere £14.99. Excellent sound quality for the price and far better than Tescos inferior Technica model of the same capacity (£19.97) and which I also have. My first MP3 player was a Samsung YP-6TX which was really nice (so it should be at £79), but the on/off and 'hold' controls became faulty after about 6 months.

I also have a Sony portable CD player which someone kindly gave me, but I don't use this very much.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on May 26, 2007, 05:00:55 AM
Harry--how do you like the MF X Ray CDP in comparison to the Meridians?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 26, 2007, 08:46:06 AM
Quote from: longears on May 26, 2007, 05:00:55 AM
Harry--how do you like the MF X Ray CDP in comparison to the Meridians?

The MF is better, quite obvious. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on May 26, 2007, 09:06:14 AM
Quote from: Harry on May 26, 2007, 08:46:06 AM
The MF is better, quite obvious. :)

Really?  I admit I was intrigued and am a fan of MF (have their A5 amp), but I've been so happy with my Meridian 506 24bit that I've never been tempted to replace it...until I saw a glowing review of MF's bargain-priced X-Ray!  In which way(s) does the MF sound better to you than your Meridians?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on May 26, 2007, 09:19:35 AM
The best system I have heard in my life was:

Loudspeakers: Duntech Prince
Amplifier: Tact Millennium
CD-Player: Bow Wizard

(http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3113/systemdh2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

The place was the listening room (with excellent acoustics) of the acoustics lab I worked in. I was able to listen to Elgar's Apostles with this system! What an experience! I remember the CD-player had difficulties playing some Naxos CDs.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on May 26, 2007, 09:22:07 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 26, 2007, 09:19:35 AM
The best system I have heard in my life was:

Loudspeakers: Duntech Prince
Amplifier: Tact Millennium
CD-Player: Bow Wizard

(http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3113/systemdh2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

The place was the listening room (with excellent acoustics) of the acoustics lab I worked in. I was able to listen to Elgar's Apostles with this system! What an experience! I remember the CD-player had difficulties playing some Naxos CDs.



Good lord I wonder how much that system would cost...$50K?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 26, 2007, 09:30:07 AM
Quote from: longears on May 26, 2007, 09:06:14 AM
Really?  I admit I was intrigued and am a fan of MF (have their A5 amp), but I've been so happy with my Meridian 506 24bit that I've never been tempted to replace it...until I saw a glowing review of MF's bargain-priced X-Ray!  In which way(s) does the MF sound better to you than your Meridians?

The sound is more open, sweeter and committed,and is livelier, but not as good as my NuVista player, that's the absolute top, no Meridian or Wadia can reach that.
I have also the Meridian 508 24 bit, and that one has a special place in my heart. Would never part from it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 26, 2007, 09:32:03 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 26, 2007, 09:19:35 AM
The best system I have heard in my life was:

Loudspeakers: Duntech Prince
Amplifier: Tact Millennium
CD-Player: Bow Wizard

(http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3113/systemdh2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

The place was the listening room (with excellent acoustics) of the acoustics lab I worked in. I was able to listen to Elgar's Apostles with this system! What an experience! I remember the CD-player had difficulties playing some Naxos CDs.



I had this amp for a while at home and can confirm that it is a very good amplifier.
They let me have it for two months to test it.
Sweet!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on May 26, 2007, 09:46:32 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on May 26, 2007, 09:22:07 AM
Good lord I wonder how much that system would cost...$50K?

The loudspeakers alone are about $100k. The whole system is about $200k new.

Quote from: Harry on May 26, 2007, 09:32:03 AM
I had this amp for a while at home and can confirm that it is a very good amplifier.
They let me have it for two months to test it.
Sweet!

The volume knob is absolutelu brilliant! The amplifier shows the volume as "uncalibrated" decibels. We used levels like 80 while listening. Somebody asked what happens if someone turns the volume knob over 99. The answer was nobody had had the guts to try!  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Steve on May 26, 2007, 10:02:22 AM
I own a complete surround system from Boston Acoustics, an ipod, and AKG K601 headphones.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: techniquest on May 26, 2007, 12:10:48 PM
QuoteI remember the CD-player had difficulties playing some Naxos CDs.
In which case, 200k or not, to me it would be worthless.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on May 26, 2007, 01:35:55 PM
Quote from: techniquest on May 26, 2007, 12:10:48 PM
In which case, 200k or not, to me it would be worthless.

Agreed whole-heartedly.

Not that DG, EMI, Philips and Sony sucks  ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on May 26, 2007, 02:39:25 PM
Quote from: techniquest on May 26, 2007, 12:10:48 PM
In which case, 200k or not, to me it would be worthless.

I'd change the CD-Player. The loudspeakers and amplifier are superb.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 12tone. on May 26, 2007, 05:43:23 PM
Where can I get Canadian prices for B&W speakers?  I know they're up there in price but last time I checked, the company's website didn't even list the prices.  Not that I'm getting any anytime soon, but it would be interesting to see what they go for.  Any sites for prices?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 06, 2007, 03:06:32 AM
My father bought Panasonic DMC-TZ2 digital camera and I borrowed it. Here are pictures of my sound system:

(http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6653/loudspeakersht8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
"Hifi 6/2" loudspeakers (3 in front, 2 in the back). The speakers are a assembly kit designed by an editor of the Finnish Hifi-magazine. It uses quality SEAS elements and has flat frequency response as well as a good power response. Bass response goes down to 48 Hz (-6 dB) thanks to skillful design and proper tuning frequency of the reflex port. The finished boxes and electrical parts cost about 140 euros/speaker. That's extremely cheap for speakers this good. The black center speaker is magnetically shielded because I have a crt tv just behind it. Under the TV is my passive subwoofer, "Hifi 55/2", also designed by the same editor. The signal of the main speakers are routed through it. The bass response goes down to 25 Hz (-6 dB) which is not bad for the 280 euros the parts cost. This kind of passive extension of bass response is a good compromise when the use is both music and movies.

(http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6515/amplifierpw6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
My beloved amplifier, NAD T762. This powerhouse is just amazing! It seems to have infinite power resources giving me the most controlled bass. The sound is both extremely clean and soft. Unlike many AV-amplifiers NAD makes musical products so stereo CDs sound just as amazing as multichannel movie soundtracks. This is an expensive product but I got it for 1000 euros.

(http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/8896/playersrl6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
My CD/DVD players. On top Pioneer DV-575A (region free) which I use for DVDs and SACDs. In the middle my CD-player (Denon DCD-735). It has served me amazingly well for 10 years. In the bottom is my first DVD-player (Denon DVD-1000).   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on October 06, 2007, 05:58:12 AM
Que, you should be a Mod. Then we'd only have about five threads in the whole forum, after you'd finished merging them. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 06, 2007, 05:58:26 AM
(http://maccentre.com.au/images/ipod_nano_blue.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 06, 2007, 06:18:21 AM
Oh goody a show and tell thread!  I'm magically back in elementary school! >:D ::) :P

Alright, seriously, that's a nice system Elgar.  My hifi is bargain, but it's a big step up from using a boombox like I was when I was unemployed! :D  I have a Sherwood Receiver meant for stereo, not for 5.1 stuff, which is fine by me for now.  I have two big Yamaha bookshelfs.  They are large enough that I don't know if I want to put them on stands, they are three way and cover the bass well and look more like stumpy towers than proper bookshelfs. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johnQpublic on October 06, 2007, 06:23:07 AM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=4776;type=avatar)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on October 06, 2007, 06:23:43 AM
Quote from: johnQpublic on October 06, 2007, 06:23:07 AM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=4776;type=avatar)

Nice! ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 06, 2007, 06:42:57 AM
Quote from: Que on October 06, 2007, 05:55:46 AM
It never fails to amaze me how the same threads keep being re-invented over and over again... 8)
(It's even a thread you've posted on yourself!)

What do you listen to music on? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1069.0.html)

Q

I seached that thread for a long time but I didn't remember it's title.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 06, 2007, 06:44:34 AM
Quote from: johnQpublic on October 06, 2007, 06:23:07 AM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=4776;type=avatar)

How humiliatin'.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 06, 2007, 06:45:44 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 06, 2007, 06:42:57 AM
I seached that thread for a long time but I didn't remember it's title.

Hunting for threads is no fun, so go ahead and start a new one. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johnQpublic on October 06, 2007, 06:53:10 AM
I do have another sound system. You may have seen it before:

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Themes/GMG/images/on.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 06, 2007, 06:56:25 AM
Okay, alltough their is already a thread, I will ost again some gems I have, and a few things that I adde.
All cabling and interlinks are from Nordost, Vahalla. Also all the power cables are from nordost
The power amp that is below, I bought for a mere trifle.

Speakers are Avalon Ceramique.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 06, 2007, 06:56:38 AM
It's true about the nano though; I'm either listening to that at work or on a workout, or I am listening to my iTunes as I fiddle about at my computer in the evenings. I do have some adequate stereo components, but they don't get used much (same room as the TV, which my wife RULES OVER), and as you can tell, I'm no audiophile.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 06, 2007, 06:58:42 AM
One of my amps MF

Below Pass Labs pre-amplifier
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on October 06, 2007, 07:00:38 AM
PC for listening in the lounge ... unless it's something I can persuade my wife she'll like. But on the go, this little gem puts a smile on my face:

(http://www.spshop.gr/images/zen_v_2gb.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 06, 2007, 07:02:27 AM
Pass Labs amp
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 06, 2007, 07:05:36 AM
Harry, the first pic you posted is a pic I posted and shows the best system I have heard (owning such would require winning in lottery...  :P )

Quote from: Que on October 06, 2007, 06:49:17 AM
Never mind my grumping - your sound system looks very nice BTW.  :)

Q

Thanks Que! Not exactly High End but has a stunning performance for it's cost.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 06, 2007, 07:06:25 AM
ON THE GO:

(http://www.coolave.com/products_images/41oHWNqAGnL.jpg)


PLUS


(http://image.mpnavi.com/1.sj-mj33_image/sennheiser/sennheiser_mx500/photo_sennheiser_mx500_015.jpg)\


FOR a grand total of $50.  8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 06, 2007, 07:08:06 AM
Part of the Pass Labs amp :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 06, 2007, 07:09:07 AM
A few other trinkets

There is so much more, the old thread has it all.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: маразм1 on October 06, 2007, 07:16:30 AM
Simply the best there is.  Cost around 300 bucks 11 years ago.  Sounds good at low volume--very rich and full.  It survived college, my brother's party where as&&oles destroyed the speakers.  Still sounds great (cd stopped working after 3 years), even though I just use it as speakers for my tv/computer.  JVC rules!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on October 06, 2007, 07:23:17 AM
For portable I've an iPod 4G20 with Etymotic 6i buds.  And there are times I get as much musical satisfaction out of this as from the main system.  ;D

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 06, 2007, 07:25:53 AM
Quote from: longears on October 06, 2007, 07:23:17 AM
Gallo Reference 3.1s
(http://www.10audio.com/images/Gallo_Ref3.jpg)

VERY cool design.  8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on October 06, 2007, 07:31:49 AM
Quote from: George on October 06, 2007, 07:25:53 AM
VERY cool design.  8)
Took him 20 years to get it right.  Worth the effort.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on October 06, 2007, 08:28:58 AM
Quote from: George on October 06, 2007, 07:06:25 AM
ON THE GO:

(http://www.coolave.com/products_images/41oHWNqAGnL.jpg)


PLUS


(http://image.mpnavi.com/1.sj-mj33_image/sennheiser/sennheiser_mx500/photo_sennheiser_mx500_015.jpg)\


FOR a grand total of $50.  8)

Wish I could wear those ear bud sort, but I've got weird lug holes that let them fall out. And because I have a larger than average head, I have to wear phones with a generous headband.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Siedler on October 06, 2007, 08:29:19 AM
(http://shop.digitoday.fi/thumb7.php?hd-595.jpg)
+
(http://www.gnt.fi/tuotekuvat/Apple_Mbook_w.jpg)

:(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 06, 2007, 08:30:35 AM
Quote from: Mark on October 06, 2007, 08:28:58 AM
Wish I could wear those ear bud sort, but I've got weird lug holes that let them fall out. And because I have a larger than average head, I have to wear phones with a generous headband.

Mine would fall out too, if I didn't use some Radio Shack foam pads.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on October 06, 2007, 08:31:57 AM
I can't do canal phones, either. Won't stay in, no matter how far I push 'em. :(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 06, 2007, 08:33:22 AM
Quote from: marazm1 on October 06, 2007, 07:16:30 AM
Simply the best there is.  Cost around 300 bucks 11 years ago.  Sounds good at low volume--very rich and full.  It survived college, my brother's party where as&&oles destroyed the speakers.  Still sounds great (cd stopped working after 3 years), even though I just use it as speakers for my tv/computer.  JVC rules!

That is awesome dude.  Others are posting hifis that look like they belong in a art museum, and you've posted an old dented, beat up boombox with duct tape and shit all over it.  That really is my style, I had a jvc tape deck that was damaged from moving so that one of the lids wouldn't close, but still sounded great so I kept it! :D  Well that was awhile ago, I don't have it anymore but I kept for a very long time.  If it works, use it, sit back and enjoy the music. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 06, 2007, 08:35:33 AM
Quote from: Mark on October 06, 2007, 08:31:57 AM
I can't do canal phones, either. Won't stay in, no matter how far I push 'em. :(

They weird me out anyway, also uncomfortable. I had some and returned them.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Renfield on October 06, 2007, 09:35:19 AM
Quote from: Siedler on October 06, 2007, 08:29:19 AM
(http://shop.digitoday.fi/thumb7.php?hd-595.jpg)
+
(http://www.gnt.fi/tuotekuvat/Apple_Mbook_w.jpg)

:(

Actually, even though I expected the MacBook's on-board sound card not to be worth much, the quality is pretty decent (even by my sensitive-ear standards): and it can almost drive my Sennheiser 280HD's to a sufficient extent.

Although the 595's might be a tougher sell, with a MacBook... :-\

Edit: Typo.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kullervo on October 06, 2007, 10:04:44 AM
(http://www.goodgearguide.com.au/im.php/width/640/im/1412_7_JBL_creature_II.jpg)

Had these for about two years now. Not exactly high-end, but not too shabby, either.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2007, 11:41:33 AM
Quote from: marazm1 on October 06, 2007, 07:16:30 AM
Simply the best there is.  Cost around 300 bucks 11 years ago.  Sounds good at low volume--very rich and full.  It survived college, my brother's party where as&&oles destroyed the speakers.  Still sounds great (cd stopped working after 3 years), even though I just use it as speakers for my tv/computer.  JVC rules!

Yup, me too, Maraz! Long live JVC indeed! And this one HAS lived long. Like yours, the CD player died long ago, but with my sound card plugged into it, works just fine. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Soundsmall.jpg)

8)

PS - The small speakers in front are part of an Altec system that is split off from the sound card too. Subwoofer on the floor. Hey, it plays great. :)

----------------
Now playing: Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition - Jeno Jando - Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition for Piano - 01 (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/jeno+jando/track/mussorgsky+pictures+at+an+exhibition+for+piano)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 06, 2007, 12:33:03 PM
Yeah I have Altec Lansing for my pc speakers too now Gurn.  They're pretty sweet.  I have a 2.1 system. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2007, 12:50:10 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 06, 2007, 12:33:03 PM
Yeah I have Altec Lansing for my pc speakers too now Gurn.  They're pretty sweet.  I have a 2.1 system. :)

Me too. Nice bass reproduction. And with the JVC filling in the mid-range, it is completely acceptable. Although I don't suppose MOMA would be interested in it, like they would be some of these!   :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: St Saëns Piano Trios - Joachim Trio - St Saëns Trio #2 in e for Piano & Strings Op 92 1st mvmt
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lady Chatterley on October 06, 2007, 12:55:44 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2007, 11:41:33 AM
Yup, me too, Maraz! Long live JVC indeed! And this one HAS lived long. Like yours, the CD player died long ago, but with my sound card plugged into it, works just fine. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Soundsmall.jpg)

8)

Hey Gurn,
Is that the stack of Purcell operas I sent you  on the shelf?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2007, 01:00:07 PM
Quote from: Muriel on October 06, 2007, 12:55:44 PM
Hey Gurn,
Is that the stack of Purcell operas I sent you  on the shelf?

:P

And on the shelf is where they stay... ;D

(I know you recognized the all-seeing eyes of Luigi though)

8)

----------------
Now playing: St Saëns Piano Trios - Joachim Trio - St Saëns Trio #2 in e for Piano & Strings Op 92 3rd mvmt
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lady Chatterley on October 06, 2007, 01:02:54 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2007, 01:00:07 PM
:P

And on the shelf is where they stay... ;D

(I know you recognized the all-seeing eyes of Luigi though)
Yes I do! LVB lives on the same spot on my desk :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 06, 2007, 01:19:26 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2007, 01:00:07 PM
:P

And on the shelf is where they stay... ;D

It feels like she gave you homework, doesn't it? ;D


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2007, 01:37:39 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 06, 2007, 01:19:26 PM
It feels like she gave you homework, doesn't it? ;D




;D

Couldn't have said it better. Don't let your empathy level rise, not good for you professionally. ;)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Haydn Piano Sonatas 11 - 20 - John McCabe - FJH Sonata #19 in e for Piano H Deest 3rd mvmt
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lady Chatterley on October 06, 2007, 02:46:10 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 06, 2007, 01:19:26 PM
It feels like she gave you homework, doesn't it? ;D

David,stop trying to make waves!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lady Chatterley on October 06, 2007, 02:47:35 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2007, 01:37:39 PM

Don't let your empathy level rise...


Hey nonny nonny and fa la la...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Siedler on October 06, 2007, 03:14:51 PM
Quote from: Renfield on October 06, 2007, 09:35:19 AM
Actually, even though I expected the MacBooks's on-board sound card not to be worth much, the quality is pretty decent (even by my sensitive-ear standards): and it can almost drive my Sennheiser 280HD's to a sufficient extent.

Although the 595's might be a tougher sell, with a MacBook... :-\
Well, actually I agree, the sound is decent but I wish I had the money to buy a decent hi-fi system with speakers and amp - hence the sad face.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Renfield on October 06, 2007, 04:03:43 PM
Quote from: Siedler on October 06, 2007, 03:14:51 PM
Well, actually I agree, the sound is decent but I wish I had the money to buy a decent hi-fi system with speakers and amp - hence the sad face.  :)

Well, of course. Understandable; especially in this forum, and in comparison to those near sci-fi systems on display here! ;D

But I, at least, wouldn't have a proper place to put it: so I'm satisfied with my lowly Sony hi-fi and laptop(s)/headphones, for now.

(By the way, thanks for calling my attention to the typo in my previous post, which I fixed. :P)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on October 06, 2007, 05:18:38 PM
(http://www.continent.com.au/images/products/970118-0122.jpg)

It's obviously nothing compared to real stereo Hi-fi's like Harry's and 71dB's, but this is as good as a computer
2.1 speaker package can get. It has so much horsepower too, at 40% the neighbors from another flat of my apartment knocks on my door.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 06, 2007, 11:54:41 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 06, 2007, 05:18:38 PM
It's obviously nothing compared to real stereo Hi-fi's like Harry's and 71dB's,

Well, my system is actually 5.0 with passive subwoofer. I think classical music really needs good sound so some of the systems shown here do not make any sense (to me). PC speakers for classical music?  ??? Insane!  :P 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Expresso on October 07, 2007, 12:26:16 AM
Currently i don't have a sound system, i'm stuck with my pc speakers.

(http://aycu10.webshots.com/image/28969/2005641049211871238_rs.jpg) (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2005641049211871238)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 07, 2007, 04:22:20 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 06, 2007, 11:54:41 PM
I think classical music really needs good sound so some of the systems shown here do not make any sense (to me). PC speakers for classical music?  ??? Insane!  :P 

You started a thread just so you could show off your hifi, and on top of that lack the grace and dignity required to stop from insulting people who haven't invested as much money in their hifi as you have yours.  You know you really are being a jerk.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on October 07, 2007, 06:08:07 AM
My (as yet incomplete) system, most of which I've built myself (all of these pictures are from the web, not my actual gear):

(http://www.envogue-24.de/Bilder/nottingham/InterspTitel480.jpg)

Nottingham Interspace turntable...


(http://homepage.mac.com/sead/slike/121-2130_IMG.jpg)

...with RS Labs tonearm, and Denon DL103 cartridge (not shown).


(http://www.vacuumtube.org.uk/images/Bugle_EXT_small.jpg)

Hagerman Cornet phono preamp (w/ vintage Altec/Peerless condenser mic transformers as step ups).


(http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/foreplay/forepl2.jpg)

Bottlehead Foreplay preamp.  Both this and the Hagerman were built as kits.


(http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=7899&stc=1&d=1117124687)

300B SET monoblock amp, built from scratch as a group project (the amps are on the floor in front of the speakers; this system belongs to one of the members of the group.)  At a whopping 8 watts/channel, these are overkill for the speakers...


(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt2/4_1.jpg)

Lowther Medallions, which I am still in the midst of building.


Oh, almost forgot.  My CD/SACD player is a Sony DVP-NS900V multi-format player which has been modified by Tube Research Labs for improved audio performance.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 07, 2007, 07:08:56 AM
Shrunk that's crazy amazing! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on October 07, 2007, 07:12:03 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 07, 2007, 07:08:56 AM
Shrunk that's crazy amazing! :)

Of course, without the speakers much of it does nothing.  So for now I listen thru headphones, while I plug away at the woodworking for the speakers. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on October 07, 2007, 01:38:38 PM
I would appreciate it if 71dB can shut up about my speakers. I know they're not great, but decent. I'm a high school student, what would you expect me to listen to classical music on? At least I'm not one of those typical teens who sticks with their ipods (not to mention default ear buds) all the time and listen to crap music like avril lavigne and britney spears.

And may someone tell me why the picture I posted got changed into a stupid 80's personal computer? It was a logitech z-2300. Obviously some moderator has nothing better to do than to randomly changing people's pictures without a notice.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 07, 2007, 02:00:53 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 07, 2007, 01:38:38 PM
I would appreciate it if 71dB can shut up about my speakers. I know they're not great, but decent. I'm a high school student, what would you expect me to listen to classical music on? At least I'm not one of those typical teens who sticks with their ipods (not to mention default ear buds) all the time and listen to crap music like avril lavigne and britney spears.

Yes, he should have some respect for what other people do, other than himself. I'm sure he will in future.

QuoteAnd may someone tell me why the picture I posted got changed into a stupid 80's personal computer? It was a logitech z-2300. Obviously some moderator has nothing better to do than to randomly changing people's pictures without a notice.

None of the mods give a crap about what picture you posted. I suggest that you copied the wrong link. Try again... ::)

----------------
Now playing: Crusell Clarinet Concerti - Johnson  English CO / Schwarz - Crusell Concerto #2 in f for Clarinet & Orchestra Op 5 3rd mvmt
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on October 07, 2007, 02:33:58 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 07, 2007, 02:00:53 PM
Yes, he should have some respect for what other people do, other than himself. I'm sure he will in future.

None of the mods give a crap about what picture you posted. I suggest that you copied the wrong link. Try again... ::)

----------------
Now playing: Crusell Clarinet Concerti - Johnson  English CO / Schwarz - Crusell Concerto #2 in f for Clarinet & Orchestra Op 5 3rd mvmt

No, you see. The picture was the z-300 when I read this thread yesterday. Today all of a sudden it's changed by some random mod obviously have too much time on their hands. Shame. If you don't believe me, check the logs. Someone went in and edited my post. Goddamn it people, admit what you did or don't do it in the first place.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 07, 2007, 03:10:57 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 06, 2007, 05:18:38 PM
(http://www.continent.com.au/images/products/970118-0122.jpg)

It's obviously nothing compared to real stereo Hi-fi's like Harry's and 71dB's, but this is as good as a computer
2.1 speaker package can get. It has so much horsepower too, at 40% the neighbors from another flat of my apartment knocks on my door.

Quote from: Bonehelm on October 07, 2007, 02:33:58 PM
No, you see. The picture was the z-300 when I read this thread yesterday. Today all of a sudden it's changed by some random mod obviously have too much time on their hands. Shame. If you don't believe me, check the logs. Someone went in and edited my post. Goddamn it people, admit what you did or don't do it in the first place.

Whatever the hell this is (z300?), that's what was there when I first saw the post. That's what's there now. Clearly when you speak of people with too much time on their hands, you are engaging in personal reflection, which is likely a new experience for you that you don't know how to handle quite yet. It's OK, you'll grow into it.

8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: cx on October 07, 2007, 04:23:58 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 07, 2007, 02:33:58 PM
No, you see. The picture was the z-300 when I read this thread yesterday. Today all of a sudden it's changed by some random mod obviously have too much time on their hands. Shame. If you don't believe me, check the logs. Someone went in and edited my post. Goddamn it people, admit what you did or don't do it in the first place.

Go here (the host of the image): http://www.continent.com.au/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=z-2300&x=0&y=0

Then click on the product.

That website is the one that "changed" the picture, no one else.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 07, 2007, 04:29:12 PM
Quote from: CS on October 07, 2007, 04:23:58 PM
Go here (the host of the image): http://www.continent.com.au/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=z-2300&x=0&y=0

Then click on the product.

That website is the one that "changed" the picture, no one else.

Thank you, CS. I suspected that's what had happened, but I didn't have enough time on my hands to do the research. ;)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Spohr Clarinet Concerto #1 - Johnson  English CO / Schwarz - Spohr Concerto #1 in c for Clarinet & Orchestra Op 26 2nd mvmt
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 07, 2007, 05:28:20 PM
I have to say that even I think that is paranoid to think that the mods change your pic! :D  It's only slightly funny as a prank, nah they would pick something with more laugh potential. 8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 08, 2007, 01:01:42 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 07, 2007, 01:38:38 PM
I would appreciate it if 71dB can shut up about my speakers. I know they're not great, but decent. I'm a high school student, what would you expect me to listen to classical music on? At least I'm not one of those typical teens who sticks with their ipods (not to mention default ear buds) all the time and listen to crap music like avril lavigne and britney spears.

Sorry, but I have not said anything about your speakers. I just told my professional (I am an acoustic engineer) opinion about the importance of good sound quality with classical music.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on October 08, 2007, 01:21:38 AM
My stereo system (multi-channel IMHO makes little sense in classical music, and is already on the way out again):

Speakers: KEF Reference 203 (floorstanders) / Klipsch Reference B-75 (bookshelves)
CDP: Jolida Music Van Vaccum Tube Reference HDCD Player / Original A8-t Tube CDP
DVD/SACD: Denon DVD-3910
Amps: Musical Fidelity A308 Dual Mono Amplifier / Cayin A-88t Vacuum Tube Integrated Amplifier
Interconnects: "cable sound" is a total fraud, but I'm using Oehlbach NF-1 and Straight Wire Symphony interconnects anyway

Thomas

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 08, 2007, 02:29:08 AM
Quote from: sound67 on October 08, 2007, 01:21:38 AM
[
Interconnects: "cable sound" is a total fraud, but I'm using Oehlbach NF-1 and Straight Wire Symphony interconnects anyway

Thomas



Cable sound may be, but the transport of the signal is not a fraud, but at the same time I know, this is a theme given to much controversy, and agreement can not be reached between both parties.
Being in the business for over 35 years now, I can say without a doubt, that interlinks and cables of good quality will improve the sound enormously.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 08, 2007, 06:39:24 AM
Quote from: sound67 on October 08, 2007, 01:21:38 AMmulti-channel IMHO makes little sense in classical music)

Thomas

Why? IMHO multichannel sound is the most important feature of SACD/DVD-A, not the higher resolution.

Multichannel makes sense in everything. In ideal case there is infinite amount of channels (total soundfield synthesis)

Quote from: Harry on October 08, 2007, 02:29:08 AM
Cable sound may be, but the transport of the signal is not a fraud, but at the same time I know, this is a theme given to much controversy, and agreement can not be reached between both parties.
Being in the business for over 35 years now, I can say without a doubt, that interlinks and cables of good quality will improve the sound enormously.


Cables may introduce very small changes in sound but so small the differences are neglectable compared to many other problems in audio reproduction. Cables are the last thing to concern when everything else is perfect (never is). Most of the heard differences between cables are due to the placebo effect.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bhodges on October 08, 2007, 07:35:05 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 07, 2007, 02:33:58 PM
No, you see. The picture was the z-300 when I read this thread yesterday. Today all of a sudden it's changed by some random mod obviously have too much time on their hands. Shame. If you don't believe me, check the logs. Someone went in and edited my post. Goddamn it people, admit what you did or don't do it in the first place.

Sorry, but there are no "logs" to check.  If a post is edited (by the original poster or by a moderator), a line shows up under the text in the following format:

« Last Edit: 07 October 2007, 00:11:59 by bhodges »

You will notice that there is no line under your post.  No one has edited it.

--Bruce
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 08, 2007, 09:04:34 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 08, 2007, 06:39:24 AM


)
Cables may introduce very small changes in sound but so small the differences are neglectable compared to many other problems in audio reproduction. Cables are the last thing to concern when everything else is perfect (never is). Most of the heard differences between cables are due to the placebo effect.

Poju, that is complete nonsense. Placebo effect my....
I have ears  too you know, so stop offending me by nullifying my knowledge.
No hard feelings though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 08, 2007, 09:44:04 AM
Quote from: Harry on October 08, 2007, 09:04:34 AM
Poju, that is complete nonsense. Placebo effect my....
I have ears  too you know, so stop offending me by nullifying my knowledge.
No hard feelings though.

http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/10/01/james-randi-calls-ou.html (http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/10/01/james-randi-calls-ou.html)

;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 08, 2007, 04:18:19 PM
Quote from: Harry on October 08, 2007, 09:04:34 AM
Poju, that is complete nonsense. Placebo effect my....
I have ears  too you know, so stop offending me by nullifying my knowledge.
No hard feelings though.

Elgar speaks based on evidence and hands on experience.  You speak based on vague intuition.  Sorry dude but step back and... hey wait you're joking aren't you? ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on October 08, 2007, 07:41:50 PM
Quote from: Harry on October 08, 2007, 09:04:34 AM
Poju, that is complete nonsense. Placebo effect my....
I have ears  too you know, so stop offending me by nullifying my knowledge.
No hard feelings though.
That's okay, Harry...you'll never convince those who are blinded by faith in their primitive superstitions.  Theory trumps experience every time for true believers. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on October 08, 2007, 07:45:50 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 08, 2007, 06:39:24 AM
Why? IMHO multichannel sound is the most important feature of SACD/DVD-A, not the higher resolution
Multichannel sound is a gimmick, a parlor trick contrived to sell extra amps and speakers to the gullible.  Higher resolution is a real benefit--but good upsampling of Redbook CDs comes very close.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 08, 2007, 10:05:05 PM
Some articles on the wire fraud can be found here. (http://2eyespy.tripod.com/id3.html)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on October 09, 2007, 12:23:46 AM
Quote from: Harry on October 08, 2007, 09:04:34 AM
Poju, that is complete nonsense. Placebo effect my....

It IS a placebo effect. Read e.g. this insightful (and entertaining) foray into the 10 Biggest Lies in Hifi:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf (http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf)

Thomas
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 09, 2007, 01:04:50 AM
Quote from: sound67 on October 09, 2007, 12:23:46 AM
It IS a placebo effect. Read e.g. this insightful (and entertaining) foray into the 10 Biggest Lies in Hifi:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf (http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf)

Thomas

No, Thomas to my ears it is not.
But its okay, I had these discussions before, and there is no brotherhood at all.
So lets keep it at that.
I think its a revealing truth.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 09, 2007, 02:47:54 AM
I in theory agree with Elgar about multichannel sound, in fact it's obvious common sense that the more sources you have the more complete a soundstage you can create.  But of course the more speakers you add, the less of an effect you get from adding another.  And it doesn't take long before the boundary conditions imposed by your walls play a larger role in reducing sound quality than adding speakers does.

In practice, I tend to prefer stereo sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 09, 2007, 04:38:34 AM
Quote from: sound67 on October 09, 2007, 12:23:46 AM
It IS a placebo effect. Read e.g. this insightful (and entertaining) foray into the 10 Biggest Lies in Hifi:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf (http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf)

Thomas

Thanks for this.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 09, 2007, 04:41:15 AM
Quote from: longears on October 08, 2007, 07:45:50 PM
Multichannel sound is a gimmick, a parlor trick contrived to sell extra amps and speakers to the gullible.  Higher resolution is a real benefit--but good upsampling of Redbook CDs comes very close.

It's the other way around. The benefits of higher resolution is questionable while larger number of discrete channels help fighting against the room acoustics. This is especially important with classical music where the REAL acoustics is captured carefully in the recording. The listening room acoustics are ADDED to the real acoustics creating a twisted double acoustics. For small scale chamber music that might work if the recording is dry but for example church music sounds less "cathedral" because listening room is much much smaller creating too early reflections from the walls. People are just used to the limitations of stereophonic sound. The more people hear well done multichannel recordings on properly set up multichannel system the more they will notice the limitations of stereo. Actually stereo perfoms amazingly well compared to the number of channels.

It's true new sound formats are created in order to sell stuff (HD video formats are here for the very same reason) but that does not take away the (physical) fact the more you have channels the better sound image you can create.

Quote from: DavidW on October 09, 2007, 02:47:54 AM
I in theory agree with Elgar about multichannel sound, in fact it's obvious common sense that the more sources you have the more complete a soundstage you can create.  But of course the more speakers you add, the less of an effect you get from adding another.  And it doesn't take long before the boundary conditions imposed by your walls play a larger role in reducing sound quality than adding speakers does.

In practice, I tend to prefer stereo sound.

Yes, the benefit of adding channels gets smaller and smaller. A 5-channel system is pretty good compromise between the sound image possibilities and cost.

You prefer stereo because you are used to that, used to it's charasteristics and limitations. We have stereo because 2 discrete channels is possible to record on vinyl. That's the reason. Sound engineers have perfected stereo sound over the decades.

I am not against stereo (stereophonic recordings should be played in stereo mode except in cases where the recording has "matrixed channel features" in which case the benefit of multichannel decoding is perhaps greater than the drawbacks). Stereo is simple, cost effective and perfected format. Multichannel sound just has even more possiblities and potential.  :)

Stereo and multichannel sounds are not exclusive. I use and enjoy them both on my 5-channel system.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on October 09, 2007, 05:09:57 AM
Quote from: Daverz on October 08, 2007, 10:05:05 PM
Some articles on the wire fraud can be found here. (http://2eyespy.tripod.com/id3.html)

I'm agnostic on the issue of cables in audio.  However, as a physician, I am always dismayed by the misuse of "double blind tests" in attempt to settle the issue, one way or the other.  For instance, in the link posted above, the number of test subjects used to "prove" there is no difference between cables is so small that no valid conclusion could possibly be drawn.  It does suggest that there is no blatantly obvious difference that is audible to any listener, under any circumstance.  But it does not rule out subtler differences that might require more protracted listening to discern.

Whether differences of this magnitude are worth the price some of these cable companies charge, of course, is another matter altogether, and not one that can be addressed scientifically.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 09, 2007, 06:18:07 AM
Quote from: Shrunk on October 09, 2007, 05:09:57 AM
I'm agnostic on the issue of cables in audio. 

In the end everything affects to the sound, even the socks in your feet but it's about on what level? That's what is wrong with audio cables fanatics. They ignore other aspects as significant or even more significant. Cables are among the least significant factors in audio reproduction and most vulnerable for placebo effect because the differencies are so microscopic. Big difference removes placebo effect as the real sensation is so clear. Placebo effect is shown to be a huge factor in hearing differences between cables (in blind tests the differences tend to disappear). The only rational starting point is that when the difference is heard in blind test it is significant.

Most people do not have too much money in their hands. Better use the money wisely. Better invest where you get the biggest improvement for you money. HE-cables really aren't cost effective investment. Instead of costly cable one could buy for example a rug and put it on the wall. The acoustics gets better and the improvement in sound is much much bigger than with the cable.

Cables work with our irrational side. We pay money for this mystic cable with oxygen free copper and special geometry. Sounds promising! We connect the new shiny cool-looking cable to our system and expect to hear the improvement/difference. That's when the placebo effect strikes and we don't see it. The sound is improved the way we expected it to improve (based on the physical properties of the cable and the words the cable is described).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on October 09, 2007, 06:54:23 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 09, 2007, 06:18:07 AM
In the end everything affects to the sound, even the socks in your feet but it's about on what level? That's what is wrong with audio cables fanatics. They ignore other aspects as significant or even more significant. Cables are among the least significant factors in audio reproduction and most vulnerable for placebo effect because the differencies are so microscopic. Big difference removes placebo effect as the real sensation is so clear. Placebo effect is shown to be a huge factor in hearing differences between cables (in blind tests the differences tend to disappear). The only rational starting point is that when the difference is heard in blind test it is significant.

Most people do not have too much money in their hands. Better use the money wisely. Better invest where you get the biggest improvement for you money. HE-cables really aren't cost effective investment. Instead of costly cable one could buy for example a rug and put it on the wall. The acoustics gets better and the improvement in sound is much much bigger than with the cable.

Cables work with our irrational side. We pay money for this mystic cable with oxygen free copper and special geometry. Sounds promising! We connect the new shiny cool-looking cable to our system and expect to hear the improvement/difference. That's when the placebo effect strikes and we don't see it. The sound is improved the way we expected it to improve (based on the physical properties of the cable and the words the cable is described).

I agree with most of what you have to say here, especially the importance of room acoustics.  My only disagreement is with the assertion that if in a double blind test, as it is usually done in audio, listeners cannot hear differences between cables, then it proves that there are no differences.  To my mind, it only proves that if there are differences, they are so small that they are easily confounded by all the other factors you list that can affect a listener's response to the music.  An academic point, to be sure.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 09, 2007, 06:59:19 AM
Quote from: Shrunk on October 09, 2007, 06:54:23 AM
My only disagreement is with the assertion that if in a double blind test, as it is usually done in audio, listeners cannot hear differences between cables, then it proves that there are no differences.

I didn't mean that. My point was the difference is meaningless if not heard in blind tests. So, we agree with this too, don't we?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on October 09, 2007, 07:23:45 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 09, 2007, 06:59:19 AM
I didn't mean that. My point was the difference is meaningless if not heard in blind tests. So, we agree with this too, don't we?

Yeah.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: orbital on October 09, 2007, 07:30:12 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 09, 2007, 06:18:07 AM

That's when the placebo effect strikes and we don't see it.

That's valid in a lot of other things too. You come home with a vintage wine that you won in an auction. You wait a couple of years, open it, and what do you know? It tastes $10,000.00 better than a $200/bottle wine  8) The last few steps are always the most expensive, and exponentially too.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on October 09, 2007, 12:39:54 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/stereo.jpg?t=1191962001)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kullervo on October 10, 2007, 05:41:17 AM
Quote from: erato on October 09, 2007, 12:39:54 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/stereo.jpg?t=1191962001)

Nice listening space!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bhodges on October 10, 2007, 05:43:57 AM
Quote from: Corey on October 10, 2007, 05:41:17 AM
Nice listening space!

Yes, I was thinking just the same thing.  What brand are those speakers, erato?

--Bruce
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 10, 2007, 05:58:56 AM
Quote from: erato on October 09, 2007, 12:39:54 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/stereo.jpg?t=1191962001)

Where'd you get the CD shelving just to the right of the left speaker?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on October 10, 2007, 07:02:58 AM
The speakers are Dali Euphonia MS 5s.

And the shelfing is IKEA meant for books (Billy) but relatively easy to adjust shelving space for CDs if you can use a hammer and a saw!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 10, 2007, 07:10:42 AM
Quote from: erato on October 10, 2007, 07:02:58 AM
The speakers are Dali Euphonia MS 5s.

And the shelfing is IKEA meant for books (Billy) but relatively easy to adjust shelving space for CDs if you can use a hammer and a saw!

Thanks. Do you recall how wide they are?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lethevich on October 10, 2007, 08:17:36 AM
Quote from: George on October 10, 2007, 07:10:42 AM
Thanks. Do you recall how wide they are?

If it helps, their sites list full dimensions: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/categories/range/10364/11683/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on October 10, 2007, 08:43:54 AM
Quote from: Lethe on October 10, 2007, 08:17:36 AM
If it helps, their sites list full dimensions: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/categories/range/10364/11683/

They also make shelves specifically designed for CD's:

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/07305310
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lethevich on October 10, 2007, 08:48:08 AM
Quote from: Shrunk on October 10, 2007, 08:43:54 AM
They also make shelves specifically designed for CD's:

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/07305310

Indeedie, I have six of those atm. They're less deep than the bookcases, which could hold two rows deep of CDs, so occupy less floor space.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 10, 2007, 08:53:28 AM
Quote from: Shrunk on October 10, 2007, 08:43:54 AM
They also make shelves specifically designed for CD's:

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/07305310

Thanks, I just wish that they were wider.  :-\
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 10, 2007, 08:54:57 AM
Quote from: Lethe on October 10, 2007, 08:17:36 AM
If it helps, their sites list full dimensions: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/categories/range/10364/11683/

It does, thanks!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Great Gable on November 07, 2007, 09:59:39 AM
All very boring - just three black boxes and no esoteric tubes. The sound belies the appearance - very revealing and rich.


Digital Front End: MERIDIAN 506 20-BIT CD PLAYER (Redbook) 
Pre Amplifier: AUDIOLAB 8000Q PRE-AMP 
Amplification: BRYSTON 4B-ST (Pro) POWER AMP 
Speaker System: AUDIO VECTOR 5 (F3 LYD) SPEAKERS (spiked onto hardwood floorboards) 
Interconnects: Chord company (hand-made by their designer) 
System Rack: Target (spiked onto hardwood floorboards) 
Music Storage System: My own hand-built shelving 
Other Accessories: Some power conditioning, purely to prevent spiking
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 07, 2007, 10:01:53 AM
Where did you get that CD shelving, Great Gable?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Great Gable on November 07, 2007, 10:06:35 AM
It's what I call "music storage system" in the post - I made them.

I do have several links provided by the Steve Hoffman forum members who have found purpose built units.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 07, 2007, 10:08:01 AM
Quote from: Great Gable on November 07, 2007, 10:06:35 AM
It's what I call "music storage system" in the post - I made them.

I do have several links provided by the Steve Hoffman forum members who have found purpose built units.

I'd be interested in those links, please.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Great Gable on November 07, 2007, 10:10:57 AM
OK here they are...

http://www.homedecorators.com/P/Oak_Veneer_Triple_Multimedia_Case_with_Glass_Doors/410/

http://www.skymall.com/shopping/detail.htm?pid=102219753

http://www.allmultimediastorage.com/

http://www.ikea.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/IkeamsSearch?storeId=7&langId=-20&catalogId=11001&searchType=product&pageNumber=-1&orderBy=score&category=%23%7EProducts&query=Billy+bookcases
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Que on November 07, 2007, 10:30:49 AM
This looks adequate!  ;D

(http://images.skymall.com/images/products/bf/17/06/102219753x.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 07, 2007, 05:49:34 PM
Quote from: Que on November 07, 2007, 10:30:49 AM
This looks adequate!  ;D

(http://images.skymall.com/images/products/bf/17/06/102219753x.jpg)

Q

That looks like heaven!  0:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 07, 2007, 09:33:41 PM
Quote from: erato on October 09, 2007, 12:39:54 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/stereo.jpg?t=1191962001)

Aren't you worried about the stuff to either side of the speakers messing with the imaging?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on November 07, 2007, 10:35:57 PM
Well not really. Of course that's always a potential problem; but the important thing is dampening and dispersion of reflected sound which bookcases, drapes etc seems to do rather well (as opposed to a naked wall). Anyway I'm quite satisfied with imaging having experimented with loudspeaker placing quite a bit; anyway I need space for books etc.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 07, 2007, 11:29:14 PM
Quote from: erato on November 07, 2007, 10:35:57 PM
Well not really. Of course that's always a potential problem; but the important thing is dampening and dispersion of reflected sound which bookcases, drapes etc seems to do rather well (as opposed to a naked wall). Anyway I'm quite satisfied with imaging having experimented with loudspeaker placing quite a bit; anyway I need space for books etc.

The CD rack and knick-knacks behind the speakers should do a good job of diffusion, but the audio fetishist in me is worried a bit by that cabinet on the right.  I'd want to put a wool blanket or something like that over it.  And the bare flat surfaces of the bookcase on the left worry me.   :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on November 08, 2007, 12:50:09 AM
Always room for some further experimentation. But the speakers are far away from the backwall and I don't think the surface on the left should be any problem vs higher frequencies....the potential need for a base trap is another matter. Thing changes all the time, so next time I need to do some changes I'll see what can be done. But I'm not an fetishist regarding sound as long as it sounds good!   ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Great Gable on November 08, 2007, 09:58:43 AM
I dread to think what would happen to me if I improved the sound of my rig. I'd be a gibbering, dribbling wreck!

Further to that - is there anyone out there, apart from myself, who is actually ecstatically happy with the sound of their system and has no need/desire to upgrade for the foreseeable future? (I bet there are not too many of you, certainly if the evidence from other forums is a reliable guide)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on November 08, 2007, 10:11:05 AM
Quote from: Great Gable on November 08, 2007, 09:58:43 AM
is there anyone out there, apart from myself, who is actually ecstatically happy with the sound of their system and has no need/desire to upgrade for the foreseeable future?
Yo.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Great Gable on November 08, 2007, 10:14:41 AM
Sorry - being an old fart - is that a "yes" or a "no"?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on November 08, 2007, 10:52:06 AM
You're an old fart?  I hadn't guessed.  Welcome, fellow fuddy-duddy!

Checking your profile I see you're also Kentish.  "Yo" in this case is primarily an affirmative response, somewhat akin to a schoolchild raising his hand--but it also means "I" in Spanish. 

My "kit" (as y'all say) has reached a state where it would require many thousands of dollars to make an incremental improvement, so I don't foresee any changes.  (However, I'm tempted to make some changes in my second system, used primarily for watching DVDs.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Great Gable on November 08, 2007, 11:48:13 AM
Yes, my 2nd and 3rd systems ( one being the surround sound rig) are a long way off the quality of my main one and neither cost anything like a tenth as much, so that's no surprise. That's fine though because the backup Hi-Fi gets used rarely, and only with headphones, whilst the surround sound is just used for DVDs. For me, the quality I have is fine for just movies/TV. It's the main setup which is of primary importance and which I have devoted a lot of time, energy and money into and no small amount of experience.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Frankler on August 22, 2008, 10:43:02 AM
I store and listen to all my music on the computer.

(http://f3c.yahoofs.com/shopping/3094431/simg_t_os453596277fc4af7ff7e41ea9b26f171489d594djpg?rm_____DJW2AFNid)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on August 22, 2008, 11:05:21 AM
Do a quick search in the archives my friend, and you find lots of info on that. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on August 22, 2008, 11:21:22 AM
Quote from: Frankler on August 22, 2008, 10:43:02 AM
I store and listen to all my music on the computer.

(http://f3c.yahoofs.com/shopping/3094431/simg_t_os453596277fc4af7ff7e41ea9b26f171489d594djpg?rm_____DJW2AFNid)

Now, I'm having an aneurism ---

Thomas
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 22, 2008, 12:24:07 PM
     I'm happy with my PSB Alpha Mini speakers, which work well in a small room. I do need a new receiver, though, and I'm looking at Pioneer and Yamaha. The depth is restricted on the shelf under the computer so not all brands can be considered, otherwise I'd very likely be looking for usual suspects like NAD, Marantz, or perhaps Outlaw. The biggest change will be adding a power amp at some point (Crown or QSC), and a better sub (SVS is the likeliest). For a computer based system, I think computer speakers should only fill a backup role when you don't want to turn on your main system.

     I just tested my PCs analog out and it's way inferior to digital out to a receiver. Best of all is integrating your PC into your main system when this can be done. Now you have your whole PC music collection available to the best sounding equipment you have. Second choice is digital out to a DAC/amp like the Bithead (http://www.headphone.com/products/headphone-amps/the-mobile-line/headroom-total-bithead.php) which will provide excellent sound to quality headphones and once again avoid the nasties produced by analog computer sound that's built into the case.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on August 22, 2008, 07:51:41 PM
Who got worse speakers than me? I got Logitech Z-2300. Costed 250CND in stores back then but I got it for 80 off ebay.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: M forever on August 22, 2008, 11:42:46 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 22, 2008, 12:24:07 PM
I just tested my PCs analog out and it's way inferior to digital out to a receiver. Best of all is integrating your PC into your main system when this can be done. Now you have your whole PC music collection available to the best sounding equipment you have. Second choice is digital out to a DAC/amp like the BitHead (//http://) which will provide excellent sound to quality headphones and once again avoid the nasties produced by analog computer sound that's built into the case.

Very true. M is sitting here with his headphones hooked up to the BitHead right now (BTW, your link is empty, so here is the link to the BitHead: http://www.headphone.com/products/headphone-amps/the-mobile-line/headroom-total-bithead.php ). It's great for traveling - that's what is mainly made for - because it is so small but I also use it all the time when I move my laptop around the house.
For a stationary PC, it shouldn't be a problem at all though to find a sound card for not too much money with an S/PDIF digital out which pretty much any a/v receiver should accept.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 22, 2008, 11:45:05 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on August 22, 2008, 07:51:41 PM
Who got worse speakers than me? I got Logitech Z-2300. Costed 250CND in stores back then but I got it for 80 off ebay.

Buying crappy speakers is waste of money. Buy quality loudspeakers. It's worth it. Good sound for 10-20 years. It's shocking to see what kind of plastic crap many use in order to "enjoy" their classical music.  :o

Good speakers don't cost more than ~$500/pair.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 23, 2008, 09:38:17 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 22, 2008, 11:42:46 PM
Very true. M is sitting here with his headphones hooked up to the BitHead right now (BTW, your link is empty, so here is the link to the BitHead: http://www.headphone.com/products/headphone-amps/the-mobile-line/headroom-total-bithead.php ). It's great for traveling - that's what is mainly made for - because it is so small but I also use it all the time when I move my laptop around the house.
For a stationary PC, it shouldn't be a problem at all though to find a sound card for not too much money with an S/PDIF digital out which pretty much any a/v receiver should accept.

    Thanks, M. I corrected it anyway. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on August 24, 2008, 02:00:56 AM
Quote from: Frankler on August 22, 2008, 10:43:02 AM
I store and listen to all my music on the computer.

(http://f3c.yahoofs.com/shopping/3094431/simg_t_os453596277fc4af7ff7e41ea9b26f171489d594djpg?rm_____DJW2AFNid)

I have the model up from these ... but only for occasional use with my laptop. ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 02:50:32 AM
Two separate stereo systems.

No.1

(http://www.hifi-regler.de/pictures/special/KEF_REFERENCE_203.jpg) + (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/pics/musfidelity_a308_front.jpg) + (http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/4549/jolidamusicvan18ay.jpg)
KEF Reference 203 / Musical Fidelity A308 / Jolida Music Van Tube Reference CDP

and, as of late, ...

(http://blog.calaos.fr/images/sqeeze_duet1.jpg)
Logitech Squeezebox "Duet"

No.2

(http://www.hifi-regler.de/pictures/prodpics/small/s377007.jpg) + (http://www.hornfabrik-eder.de/a88t.jpeg) + (http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2003/images/arcam_cd93.jpg)
Klipsch Reference RF-7 + Cayin TI88 + Arcam CD 93

Thomas
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: rickardg on August 24, 2008, 03:09:53 AM
Which system should I plan on getting as a cheap entry system? I'm not into 'audiophile' stuff, I just want to play my CDs with reasonably good sound. Since I play a lot of music from my computers I suppose digital input would be a good idea?

If it matters the room is fairly small about 5m x 5m, one wall is windows from floor to ceiling (no curtains) and the wall opposite the speakers is covered with bookshelves.

Our current system is a Tivoli Audio Model Two with CD and subwoofer.
(http://sites.thestar.com.my/audio/articles/2007/8/6/audiofile/06tivoli.jpg)

It sounds alright most of the time but I think I detect some shrillness in the higher register when I turn the volume up for music with big dynamic range (e. g. the strings in loud tuttis) which I, cluelessly, attribute to the fact that the speakers are quite small. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 03:13:31 AM
Quote from: rickardg on August 24, 2008, 03:09:53 AM
If it matters the room is fairly small about 5m x 5m, one wall is windows from floor to ceiling (no curtains)

Huge glass panes with no curtains? A worst-case audio scenario (the bookshelves are good though).

What's your floor like?

Quotebut I think I detect some shrillness in the higher register

Figures.

Thomas
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on August 24, 2008, 03:39:35 AM
I'd also say it's the speakers which count. I've got some Jamo D590 which are alright for me.
(http://di1.shopping.com/images1/pi/ea/2d/ac/20715905-177x150-0-0_Jamo+D+590.jpg)

A good old Pioneer A757 or 656 MK2 (not sure - other room ;)) - Wanted to replace it with a Cambridge Audio Amplifier, but no money currently  8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: rickardg on August 24, 2008, 03:46:03 AM
Quote from: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 03:13:31 AM
Huge glass panes with no curtains? A worst-case audio scenario (the bookshelves are good though).
Yes. I could negotiate some curtains if it would improve SQ significantly, but we like the view and the light.. :-)

Quote from: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 03:13:31 AM
What's your floor like?
Currently bare hardwood, but sooner or later we'll find a persian carpet large and cheap enough to cover most of it.

Quote from: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 03:13:31 AM
Figures.
Because of the speakers or the room?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 03:49:34 AM
Quote from: rickardg on August 24, 2008, 03:46:03 AM
Yes. I could negotiate some curtains if it would improve SQ significantly...

Trust me, they will!  $:) - If you also address the issues below!

QuoteCurrently bare hardwood

Ouch! If you now also remove the bookshelves you got the worst audio room in the entire solar system - except MAYBE a windowless cell consisting entirely of bare concrete.  ;D

QuoteBecause of the speakers or the room?

The room. The speakers are the most important part of the audio equipment, but, actually, the most decisive factor of them all is the room! With your kind of living room, even a 1 mill stereo system wouldn't help much.  0:)

So get some curtains, a large carpet (the fluffier the better) - and even the Tivoli will sound better - not good, but better.  ;)

Thomas
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on August 24, 2008, 04:00:56 AM
Exactly my problem. 4x7m living room, 4m window without curtain, parquet floor ... Unfortunately no chance to change it (aka 'wife' :D).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 04:05:39 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on August 24, 2008, 04:00:56 AMUnfortunately no chance to change it (aka 'wife' :D).

Well, ...  8)

@rickardg

Concerning the equipment to get once you've fixed the worst "room acoustics blunders" - there are infinite possibilities, depending on how much you're going to spend.

An inexpensive but clever solution is to get a set-up consisting of the better-quality compact stereo system with sufficient power to drive the speakers (like the Yamaha Pianocraft 320) - then forget about the speakers delivered with it and get a good set of none-too-smallish but none-too-powerhungry bookshelves (meaning bookshelf speakers of course :D), like the Klipsch Reference RB-25 or, better, RB-35 (now discontinued and available at great pirces!). This is what it would look like:

http://press.yamaha.co.jp/press/download/photo/jpg/2007/0708020102.jpg

Thomas

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on August 24, 2008, 05:18:47 AM
Quote from: rickardg on August 24, 2008, 03:09:53 AM
Which system should I plan on getting as a cheap entry system? I'm not into 'audiophile' stuff, I just want to play my CDs with reasonably good sound. Since I play a lot of music from my computers I suppose digital input would be a good idea?
If you care about good (i.e. "accurate") sound, then you're into audiophile stuff.  You should be able to assemble a musically satisfying system with a stand-alone CD player, an integrated amplifier, and a pair of "bookshelf" speakers on stands for $1000 or less--especially if you're willing to buy used.  What is your budget, and where do you live?  (US, EU, Asia?)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 05:39:33 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on August 24, 2008, 04:00:56 AM
Exactly my problem. 4x7m living room, 4m window without curtain, parquet floor ... Unfortunately no chance to change it (aka 'wife' :D).

You're running a JAMO D590 set in that kind of room? These speakers definitely need good "dampening" with carpets, furniture and stuff - otherwise, their downfire bass will sound boomy.

Got those, too, when they were available "on the cheap" for 150 Euro a piece. THAT was a great deal (loaned them out to friends after playing around with them a bit).

Thomas
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on August 24, 2008, 06:02:50 AM
Yes, bought them when there was the hype in www forums. I thought my living room conditions would change but they won't. Do you think small carpets under the speakers could help? Well I think I'll try and listen...
All in all the sound is a bit poor in the mid range.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on August 24, 2008, 12:16:06 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 24, 2008, 05:18:47 AM
If you care about good (i.e. "accurate") sound, then you're into audiophile stuff.  You should be able to assemble a musically satisfying system with a stand-alone CD player, an integrated amplifier, and a pair of "bookshelf" speakers on stands for $1000 or less--especially if you're willing to buy used.  What is your budget, and where do you live?  (US, EU, Asia?)

Absolutely second the suggestion to buy used.  Make the neuroticism of the typical audiophile, who is always changing components, work to your favour!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: M forever on August 24, 2008, 12:31:42 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 24, 2008, 05:18:47 AM
If you care about good (i.e. "accurate") sound, then you're into audiophile stuff.

And if you really care about and actually understand good sound, you don't bother with all the audiophile marketing hype and just evaluate sound equipment based on solid, well understood technical criteria, and set it up using the right measurement methods to get the best performance from the equipment. It is, after all, playback equipment, not musical instruments.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: rickardg on August 24, 2008, 12:53:31 PM
Quote from: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 04:05:39 AM
@rickardg

Concerning the equipment to get once you've fixed the worst "room acoustics blunders" - there are infinite possibilities, depending on how much you're going to spend.
I'll definitely look into curtains, I'll have to think of some temporary solution to try out different arrangements, annoyingly it's all glass or reinforced concrete. I basically want the room as unresonant as possible?

Quote from: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 04:05:39 AM
An inexpensive but clever solution is to get a set-up consisting of the better-quality compact stereo system with sufficient power to drive the speakers (like the Yamaha Pianocraft 320) [...]
Clever, perhaps I should even dig out an old portable CD player I have lying around somewhere and get a proper amp?

Quote from: DavidRoss on August 24, 2008, 05:18:47 AM
If you care about good (i.e. "accurate") sound, then you're into audiophile stuff. 
To me an audiophile is interested in the audio technology per se and/or willing to spend 90% of the money to get the last 10% of performance (a perfectly valid approach). At this point I'm mostly interested in the music and happy to get the first 90% of performance, of course, you are probably right I might need audiophile stuff to get into the ninth decile... :-)

Quote from: DavidRoss on August 24, 2008, 05:18:47 AMYou should be able to assemble a musically satisfying system with a stand-alone CD player, an integrated amplifier, and a pair of "bookshelf" speakers on stands for $1000 or less--especially if you're willing to buy used.  What is your budget, and where do you live?  (US, EU, Asia?)
The short term budget is close to zero, we are renovating the entire flat, but stuff like carpets and curtains can go on the redecorating account. The mid term budget is around $1000 but hopefully less and the long term (years) a quite bit more. I'm certainly willing to buy used, it'll only be used to playing music, not as a home movie theatre.

I live in the EU (Sweden).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on August 25, 2008, 08:19:47 AM
Quote from: rickardg on August 24, 2008, 12:53:31 PM
Clever, perhaps I should even dig out an old portable CD player I have lying around somewhere and get a proper amp?

That might not work. Most portable CD players only have an analogue output for the headphones, which you would trhen have to connect to the amp's RCA inputs. The sound signal put out by the portable player may be too weak, or of insufficient quality (like when you'd try to hook up an ordinary PC soundcard to the amp the same way). Either you have one that has a digital output (and an amp with digital input and D/A converter), or you buy an integrated system, or, as David suggested, some dedicated CDP and amp of decent quality.

Denon make a very good CD-AMP combination at a reasonable price, the DCD-700 and PMA-700 respectively. Together they cost something like USD 600 (?!), and the CDP even plays MP3 files and supports folders and ID-3 tags.

(http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/pma700/groupsil.jpg) (http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/pma700/groupblk.jpg)

Since several posters suggested used components: no problem with amps or speakers (if they aren't 10+ years old), though I'd be careful with CD or DVD players. Had some bad experiences myself with some, bought over eBay. Better to buy that stuff from a dealer.

Thomas
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on August 25, 2008, 09:04:08 AM
Quote from: sound67 on August 25, 2008, 08:19:47 AMSince several posters suggested used components: no problem with amps or speakers (if they aren't 10+ years old), though I'd be careful with CD or DVD players. Had some bad experiences myself with some, bought over eBay. Better to buy that stuff from a dealer.
Haha, you just remind me I still have a Philips CD820 here (must be from 1988), works, does it's job does not want to die.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 25, 2008, 01:45:23 PM

     My dream system would be a dedicated HTPC (of that general type, that is) with only programs for audio/video functions installed feeding a pre/pro connected to a full array of omni-directional speakers (Walsh drivers) through a bank of high powered pro amps (~350 wpc or greater) and a pair of subs, each located to compensate for room-related deficiencies in bass response. None of these components would be outrageously expensive individually, though the total cost of the system would certainly be high. I'd start with a 2.1 system with one sub and build out from there.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on August 25, 2008, 02:01:53 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 25, 2008, 01:45:23 PM
     My dream system would be a dedicated HTPC (of that general type, that is) with only programs for audio/video functions installed feeding a pre/pro connected to a full array of omni-directional speakers (Walsh drivers) through a bank of high powered pro amps (~350 wpc or greater) and a pair of subs, each located to compensate for room-related deficiencies in bass response. None of these components would be outrageously expensive individually, though the total cost of the system would certainly be high. I'd start with a 2.1 system with one sub and build out from there.

Oh well drogulus, this is out of the question then?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 25, 2008, 02:12:09 PM
Quote from: mahler10th on August 25, 2008, 02:01:53 PM
Oh well drogulus, this is out of the question then?

      No, it's not. I would have to reorient my current more modest upgrade plan to incorporate 86 dB speakers instead of +90 dB, which would call for more power. The receiver in the current plan would serve in the high end version, too, and in fact replacing it may not be necessary at all, depending on future choices about video connections.

      This is how the Walsh driver works:

     (http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/999Ohmfig1.jpg)

     They stole my picture, so here's a different one.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on August 30, 2008, 05:08:08 AM
On the topic of audio, here's a guy with a nice, modest little system:

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10834

(http://i9.tinypic.com/4vpiv68.jpg)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on August 30, 2008, 05:16:36 AM
Quote from: rickardg on August 24, 2008, 12:53:31 PM
I'll definitely look into curtains, I'll have to think of some temporary solution to try out different arrangements, annoyingly it's all glass or reinforced concrete. I basically want the room as unresonant as possible?  See this introduction to room acoustics (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Eo71K784O3J/learn/learningcenter/home/speakers_roomacoustics.html)

Clever, perhaps I should even dig out an old portable CD player I have lying around somewhere and get a proper amp? If money is so tight I wouldn't advise spending anything on stopgap solutions that offer little improvement and only waste your limited resources.

To me an audiophile is interested in the audio technology per se and/or willing to spend 90% of the money to get the last 10% of performance (a perfectly valid approach). At this point I'm mostly interested in the music and happy to get the first 90% of performance, of course, you are probably right I might need audiophile stuff to get into the ninth decile... :-)  Sounds to me like a very strange definition of "audiophile"--though one consistent with using the term as a perjorative stereotype as practiced by a number of particularly narrow-minded and self-impressed posters on this site--a class to which you do not belong.  I think an audiophile is one who cares about sound quality and seeks recordings & playback equipment that provide a close approximation to the actual sound of the live performance.  The ones you describe certainly exist (and they have their parallels among consumers of virtually every commodity known to man) but they are only a small subset of the general class.  Most audiophiles I've known have limited funds, like you, and want to spend their money wisely to get the most satisfying return for their investment.  There are several companies geared to the audiophile market that specialize in very high value at the opposite end of the marginal utility spectrum you describe--getting 90% of the performance for 10% of the price.

The short term budget is close to zero, we are renovating the entire flat, but stuff like carpets and curtains can go on the redecorating account. The mid term budget is around $1000 but hopefully less and the long term (years) a quite bit more. I'm certainly willing to buy used, it'll only be used to playing music, not as a home movie theatre.

I live in the EU (Sweden).  My great-grandparents left Sweden more than a century ago so I haven't kept up with current prices.  ;D  My recommendations for people in North America seeking good sound quality at a low price is to start with electronics by NAD (or similar outfits like Arcam, Adcom, Rotel, Cambridge Audio) and speakers by one of the Canadian companies whose subsidized R&D keeps prices low: Paradigm Atoms and PSB Alpha B1s are both under $300US.  For a little bit more money (though less if used, if you can find them), you might look into Mike Creek's offerings.  I still use my 20 year old Creek 4040 amp in a second system, and if I were buying compact speakers today, his EPOS ELS3 minimonitors would be high on my audition list.  But maybe the best approach would be to visit your nearest retailer and hear what he recommends--and if you do, and like what you hear, then buy from him rather than screwing him over to save a few bucks on the internet. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on August 30, 2008, 05:27:15 AM
Quote from: Shrunk on August 30, 2008, 05:08:08 AM
On the topic of audio, here's a guy with a nice, modest little system:

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10834
I guess that's what you do if you're spiritually retarded but have several millions in stock options from working for computer or software companies in the '80s and early '90s.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 30, 2008, 07:35:30 AM

     If all being an audiophile amounted to was violating the law of diminishing returns no one could object. The problem is that much of what they do is stupid and pointless. It's a titanic waste of resources to buy a $10,000 CD player if you don't intend to put it on a pedestal in a museum. Even if such a player was .05 % better than a $1,000 model the imbalance in the system is preposterous considering what you can do with that budget. So even ignoring diminishing returns this  makes  no  sense  at  all.







Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on August 30, 2008, 08:57:12 AM
Quote from: drogulus on August 30, 2008, 07:35:30 AM
     If all being an audiophile amounted to was violating the law of diminishing returns no one could object. The problem is that much of what they do is stupid and pointless. It's a titanic waste of resources to buy a $10,000 CD player if you don't intend to put it on a pedestal in a museum. Even if such a player was .05 % better than a $1,000 model the imbalance in the system is preposterous considering what you can do with that budget. So even ignoring diminishing returns this  makes  no  sense  at  all.
Obviously it does make sense to the person who makes such a purchase.  As usual, Ernie here confuses the beliefs he wants to impose on others with fact. 







Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: M forever on August 30, 2008, 06:29:26 PM
Yes, but it only makes as much sense as jerking off with golden gloves. It doesn't make technical or musical sense.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 30, 2008, 06:46:33 PM
Quote from: Shrunk on August 30, 2008, 05:08:08 AM
On the topic of audio, here's a guy with a nice, modest little system:

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10834

(http://i9.tinypic.com/4vpiv68.jpg)



     Who designed those? Luc Besson?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Joe_Campbell on August 30, 2008, 07:39:14 PM
Quote from: Shrunk on August 30, 2008, 05:08:08 AM
On the topic of audio, here's a guy with a nice, modest little system:

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10834

(http://i9.tinypic.com/4vpiv68.jpg)



I can't figure out what he's driving through those massive black holes in his wall. What do you think?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lethevich on August 30, 2008, 07:46:40 PM
Quote from: JCampbell on August 30, 2008, 07:39:14 PM
I can't figure out what he's driving through those massive black holes in his wall. What do you think?

One thing I did realise was how easily they might allow his home to be broken into.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: M forever on August 30, 2008, 09:48:48 PM
Those are probably horn-loaded subwoofers (with exponential CD horns which are the openings you see). I don't understand though why that makes his house easier to break into?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on August 31, 2008, 03:03:51 AM
Impressive. This setup makes sense.
If a) you're deaf and need to feel the music b) you don't know how else to waste your money, c) no wife, no grandchildren, no life, no hope.  ;D Honestly. It's the same like the people with monster lawnmowers on their 10m² lawn.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lethevich on August 31, 2008, 07:24:54 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 30, 2008, 09:48:48 PM
Those are probably horn-loaded subwoofers (with exponential CD horns which are the openings you see). I don't understand though why that makes his house easier to break into?

A house designed to repell intruders (safely locked windows, doors) will require some breaking to get into - smashed glass, etc, all creating sounds that could alert nearby people. I was thinking about how easy it may (or may not) be to simply remove a panel of those huge horn things, given how flimsy they look. The whole bit where they connect to the wall also shouts "point of access"... Still, it is not something I could test, however much it interests me ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on August 31, 2008, 09:41:28 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 30, 2008, 09:48:48 PM
Those are probably horn-loaded subwoofers (with exponential CD horns which are the openings you see). I don't understand though why that makes his house easier to break into?

The full link shows it in more detail.  They are, indeed, bass horns driven by compressions drivers, as you can see in this view from the exterior of his house:

(http://i18.tinypic.com/6g054eg.jpg)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 31, 2008, 09:56:30 AM
Quote from: Shrunk on August 30, 2008, 05:08:08 AM
(http://i9.tinypic.com/4vpiv68.jpg)



Seems he neglected his power supply:


(http://www.chipquik.com/graphics/store/strips/plugs_sm.jpg)






Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Wanderer on August 31, 2008, 11:33:17 AM
Quote from: Shrunk on August 31, 2008, 09:41:28 AM
(http://i18.tinypic.com/6g054eg.jpg)

What a waste of space; this patch of land could become a nice little garden.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 31, 2008, 11:48:29 AM


    I'd hook up my bass to those things and see if I could get some interesting feedback. (I'd probably get some interesting feedback from the neighbors :))
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Joe_Campbell on August 31, 2008, 04:59:23 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 31, 2008, 11:48:29 AM

    I'd hook up my bass to those things and see if I could get some interesting feedback. (I'd probably get some interesting feedback from the neighbors :))
See what a nice square wave looks like? Maybe even a saw? ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: M forever on August 31, 2008, 05:03:31 PM
Quote from: Shrunk on August 31, 2008, 09:41:28 AM
The full link shows it in more detail.  They are, indeed, bass horns driven by compressions drivers, as you can see in this view from the exterior of his house:

(http://i18.tinypic.com/6g054eg.jpg)

OK, that is pretty funny. And pretty silly, too. I know what the theory behind this shape and the dimensions of the horn throat is, but that is really totally over the top.

I don't see the point behind those double drivers though, especially since he already has two horns and regular 2" drivers already produce such a high SPL (esp.in the small space of the listening room) that it could easily go well over the pain threshhold. Taking into account that that is probably not what the idea is and that, yes, generously spread out power requirements make sure that the drivers operate in a for them comfortable dynamic range with low distortion, it still is a total overkill.

None of the instruments on his recordings have such large bass resonators in reality, so unless he listens to a lot of church organ stuff (but again, in that small room?) or his aim is to faithfully reproduce the sound of alphorns in his living room, there is really no point in that setup. In order to time-align the subwoofer horns with the woofers in his main speakers (and those woofers with the mid and high range drivers) to avoid phase shifts between the components, delay circuits would be needed which I don't see in his equipment rack. The number of delay circuits that would be needed to align all these drivers would add a lot of processing to the playback chain which on the other hand is generally an audiophile no-no. So the basic design of the speakers themselves is already faulty.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: rickardg on September 01, 2008, 04:25:03 AM
Thanks to all those that posted helpful advice.

Some experiments with an old foam mattress and a couple of blankets have thoroughly cured me from any desire to buy new hardware before I've done something about the room acoustics. The hardest problem will probably be to dampen the glass wall.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 08:14:21 AM
NAD Amp, KEF speakers, Sony CD player, which I need to upgrade when I can afford it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Joe_Campbell on September 01, 2008, 09:18:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 08:14:21 AM
NAD Amp, KEF speakers, Sony CD player, which I need to upgrade when I can afford it.
Do you mean you need to specifically upgrade the cd player, or the entire system? If so, what is the reason? I've never understood the benefit of a high quality cd player, although I'm admittedly not very familiar with the subject.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on September 01, 2008, 09:52:09 AM
Quote from: JCampbell on September 01, 2008, 09:18:32 AM
Do you mean you need to specifically upgrade the cd player, or the entire system? If so, what is the reason? I've never understood the benefit of a high quality cd player, although I'm admittedly not very familiar with the subject.
The CD player must read the pits in the disc accurately and then convert those digital 1s and 0s to analog electrical signals which then get amplified to power your speakers and reproduce the sound of music. Here's a wiki article that explains the basic process and variables involved. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter)  A good one will do the job well, reliably creating a signal that will accurately reproduce the sound of the recorded performance.  A bad one can be unlistenable, as were virtually all CD players in the early days...unless you liked having your teeth set on edge!

There have been several posts on other threads about the merits of CD players.  Some folks have claimed that there is literally no difference whatsoever among different players.  Others have pointed out, correctly, that the differences among CD players are generally of much lower magnitude than the differences among loudspeakers.  (Some have concluded from this that therefore only idiots would care about CD player quality.  :o )

You can theorize all you like about the existence or non-existence of differences, or the comparative significance of differences, or others' ability to hear the differences, and so on, but the only way to know whether they matter and how much to you is to find out for yourself by the simple expedient of some comparative listening. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 01:32:33 PM
Quote from: JCampbell on September 01, 2008, 09:18:32 AM
Do you mean you need to specifically upgrade the cd player, or the entire system? If so, what is the reason? I've never understood the benefit of a high quality cd player, although I'm admittedly not very familiar with the subject.

I just meant the CD player. Your post interests me. Are you saying that there is no need to upgrade the CD player?  The NAD and KEF components of the system are relatively new (bought second hand off a friend) but the Sony CD player, bought new many years ago is, I thought, the weakest component of the system and I always assumed that a better player would improve the sound quality. I am quite lo-fi and v ignorant of the technology but the NAD amp and KEF speakers made an appreciable difference in sound quality. The Sony player does not always recognise the discs. My cheapo portable always recognizes the discs, so that is another issue with the Sony player.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 01:35:49 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 01, 2008, 09:52:09 AM
The CD player must read the pits in the disc accurately and then convert those digital 1s and 0s to analog electrical signals which then get amplified to power your speakers and reproduce the sound of music. Here's a wiki article that explains the basic process and variables involved. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter)  A good one will do the job well, reliably creating a signal that will accurately reproduce the sound of the recorded performance.  A bad one can be unlistenable, as were virtually all CD players in the early days...unless you liked having your teeth set on edge!

There have been several posts on other threads about the merits of CD players.  Some folks have claimed that there is literally no difference whatsoever among different players.  Others have pointed out, correctly, that the differences among CD players are generally of much lower magnitude than the differences among loudspeakers.  (Some have concluded from this that therefore only idiots would care about CD player quality.  :o )

You can theorize all you like about the existence or non-existence of differences, or the comparative significance of differences, or others' ability to hear the differences, and so on, but the only way to know whether they matter and how much to you is to find out for yourself by the simple expedient of some comparative listening. 

Thanks David. Interesting points. A friend recently changed his CD player and said that it made an appeciable difference to sound quality.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on September 01, 2008, 02:04:26 PM
If money, time and space permitted, I'd like this system from Linn (http://www.linn.co.uk/klimax_music_system).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on September 01, 2008, 02:47:06 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 01:35:49 PM
Thanks David. Interesting points. A friend recently changed his CD player and said that it made an appeciable difference to sound quality.

     All of my new equipment produces an appreciable difference. Not all appreciable differences are real, though. I'd want to know more about the reality of the difference before spending a large sum. If there's not much money involved, then you can indulge your whims and play around with the placebo effect. If you plan on spending a big sum, it would be a good idea to apportion your spending according to a realistic idea of where it will do the most good.

     Since you have good inexpensive components by NAD and KEF, this would indicate you want value for money. So you can stick with your basic approach and only replace the CD player if you have a reason to.

     It isn't necessary to believe that all CD players sound exactly alike. There are possible tiny differences that don't relate to output level. They tend to disappear when tested for. It doesn't matter if CD players aren't exactly the same, since the unimportance of any difference (like for example one you can't hear unless you know the players identity and/or price tag) is what really matters. The theology of CD player differences doesn't matter. What should matter is how your system sounds.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 03:11:01 PM
Point taken thanks. I don't have much money to spend on it anyway, so will look around and listen to recommendations.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Joe_Campbell on September 25, 2008, 10:55:52 PM
Now that it's complete, I figured I post my 'stereo system' in its entirety:

http://ca.denon.com/ProductDetails/3321.asp

What a great, simply to use and set up receiver! No complaints.

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/HS-50-P161.aspx

I like these speakers a lot, and the price was right. Very powerful for their size.

http://nadelectronics.com/products/cd-players/C515BEE-CD-Player

This is a nice CD player...

And...because I had a few other things to hook up as well, I got this universal remote:

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/remotes/universal_remotes/devices/376&cl=us,en

What a sweet remote. It was so easy to program; it also included support for my comparatively older TV.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Siedler on October 21, 2008, 12:52:31 PM
So, I've found a guy who's selling used B&W CM1 speakers. Now I need to find an amp, I think I'll go with a stereo amp because I don't watch movies that much plus I'll only have a 2.0 setup. Hardly any stereo amps have optical-in, correct? If I'm going to use my Macbook as cdplayer, does it matter whether I use optical or analog (I mean the sound quality-wise)?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on October 21, 2008, 01:15:40 PM
Quote from: Siedler on October 21, 2008, 12:52:31 PM
So, I've found a guy who's selling used B&W CM1 speakers. Now I need to find an amp, I think I'll go with a stereo amp because I don't watch movies that much plus I'll only have a 2.0 setup. Hardly any stereo amps have optical-in, correct? If I'm going to use my Macbook as cdplayer, does it matter whether I use optical or analog (I mean the sound quality-wise)?

    If the sound quality of the analog out on your laptop is very good you could run it into your amp with good results. You could compare the sound from a CD playing on your laptop through the headphone out of the amp with the sound of a CD player. Most often the player will be much better than the laptop. You would need to use a USB sound card from the laptop to get analog sound as good as the player.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 21, 2008, 02:02:41 PM
Quote from: Siedler on October 21, 2008, 12:52:31 PM
So, I've found a guy who's selling used B&W CM1 speakers. Now I need to find an amp, I think I'll go with a stereo amp because I don't watch movies that much plus I'll only have a 2.0 setup. Hardly any stereo amps have optical-in, correct? If I'm going to use my Macbook as cdplayer, does it matter whether I use optical or analog (I mean the sound quality-wise)?

Macbooks have an optical out through their 1/8" headphone jack.  I got a Monster optical cable that came with the 1/8" adapter, and I hook this up to a Perpetual Technologies P3-A DAC.  The PerpTech is pretty old, and I'm sure they have better sounding and cheaper external DACs now.

There are also receivers and integrated amps coming out now with built in DACs that can take computer input, like the Outlaw Audio receiver which has an USB input:

http://outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 21, 2008, 10:47:00 PM
(http://www.listenup.com/images/nht/xd.jpg)

The UPS guy brought me this system today.  It's the NHT Xd speaker system.  It's an active sattelite/subwoofer system, but the satellites have no crossover, that's all done in the digital domain by the electronic box in the middle there, which is a class D digital amplifier with a built-in digital signal processor.  This is selling for half price on the web, unfortunately because NHT gave up on the whole concept.

You can't really get an impression from this pic of just how tiny the satellites are.  Maybe I'll tidy up later and snap a pic in situ. 



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 22, 2008, 06:54:27 AM
Quote from: Daverz on October 21, 2008, 10:47:00 PM
(http://www.listenup.com/images/nht/xd.jpg)

The UPS guy brought me this system today.  It's the NHT Xd speaker system.  It's an active sattelite/subwoofer system, but the satellites have no crossover, that's all done in the digital domain by the electronic box in the middle there, which is a class D digital amplifier with a built-in digital signal processor.  This is selling for half price on the web, unfortunately because NHT gave up on the whole concept.

You can't really get an impression from this pic of just how tiny the satellites are.  Maybe I'll tidy up later and snap a pic in situ. 

The problem with 2.1 systems consisting of very small satellite speakers is high crossover frequency between satellites and subwoofer. Here it seems to be 110 Hz which is pretty high and makes it difficult to obtain coherent soundfield. The location of subwoofer is also easily heard. I'd recommend 2.1 systems consisting of larger satellites that go down to 40-60 Hz leaving the lowest octave or so to subwoofer.

I haven't heard NHT Xd speaker system myself but I'd say you can do (soundwise) much better with $6000 and probably even with the half price.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 22, 2008, 10:53:25 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 22, 2008, 06:54:27 AM
The problem with 2.1 systems consisting of very small satellite speakers is high crossover frequency between satellites and subwoofer. Here it seems to be 110 Hz which is pretty high and makes it difficult to obtain coherent soundfield. The location of subwoofer is also easily heard. I'd recommend 2.1 systems consisting of larger satellites that go down to 40-60 Hz leaving the lowest octave or so to subwoofer.

I haven't heard NHT Xd speaker system myself but I'd say you can do (soundwise) much better with $6000 and probably even with the half price.

But you can't really aurally localize the subwoofer in this system, or at least I can't.  However, if it becomes a problem, there's a connection for another subwoofer.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: M forever on October 22, 2008, 08:51:16 PM
Did you really pay $6000 for that stuff?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 22, 2008, 10:56:14 PM
Quote from: M forever on October 22, 2008, 08:51:16 PM
Did you really pay $6000 for that stuff?

$3000 at closeout, for two satellites with stands, a 500W dual 10" driver subwoofer, and the 4x150W channel amp with DSP.

I shopped for speakers for several weeks, all floorstanders in the under $5000 range, and heard several in the under $9000 range (B&W 803S and 803D, PSB Synchrony One, Paradigm Signature S6, Thiel 2.4, Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home, Dali Helicon 400 Mk. 2, Aerial 7B and 9, and Revel F52).   I think the NHT system sounds better than all of them, including the $9000 B&W 803D, but maybe accepting the Dalis ($6300) and the Aerial 9s ($9000).   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on October 23, 2008, 12:17:59 PM

    Small satellites usually have limited dynamic abilities, even when using a subwooofer. That would be my main concern with a system like this, besides the high crossover. At $3,000, though, it could be a good system for a smallish room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 23, 2008, 02:09:57 PM
Quote from: drogulus on October 23, 2008, 12:17:59 PM
    Small satellites usually have limited dynamic abilities, even when using a subwooofer. That would be my main concern with a system like this, besides the high crossover. At $3,000, though, it could be a good system for a smallish room.

Ultimately, yes, you can only get so much out of small satellites.  But practically, I'll never get close to their limits.  Even if I didn't live in a condo, I'm not a "turn it up to 11" kind of guy.  I haven't noticed any dynamic compression at the moderate volumes I listen at.  This is in a living room/dining room with an open floorplan and vaulted ceiling (sloping from 11' to 19' high; it's a large volume.)

If another subwoofer is added, you can get more dynamics out of them by increasing the crossover frequency. This is discussed in some of the reviews linked below, if you're curious.

The whole point of keeping the satellites small was to have a very small baffle for wide dispersion.   These things have huge dispersion in both the horizontal and vertical planes.

If you're curious there are several reviews on the web:

http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1105nht/
http://nhthifi.com/current/nht-reviews.html
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/nht_xd.htm

As to whether I'd recommend these, I'm not sure.  You can't mix and match power amps with them, they only work with the NHT XdA amp.  You'll need a preamp or an integrated/receiver with preamp outputs.  This is probably one reason audiophiles never took to them.  That and the extra A/D step.  The subwoofer is not really generaly useful (no phase control, for example; that's all handled by the XdA.)  And it's an orphan product: while NHT is continuing to warranty them, they aren't updating the firmware or filters anymore, and the originally promised room correction software never materialized, and this stuff is all proprietary. 

Also, it's not easy to upgrade this to a multi-channel system.  They do sell a 6.2 Xd system, but I'm not even sure how that's configured or how it works with typical classical multi-channel discs.   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Peregrine on December 13, 2008, 08:48:27 AM
Just bought these two beauties:

ARCAM A18 amp (in black):

(http://www.hifix.co.uk/graphics/pics/large/108737.jpg)


and Roksan Kandy MKIII CD player:

(http://www.roksan.co.uk/images/kandycdng.jpg)

Still hooked up to my old Celestion 9's speakers, but have some Acoustic Energy Aelite's on the way. Been listening to tunes all day!

0:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 10:23:43 AM
Looks like solid gear.  Did you try any of the Arcam CD players?

Here's the CD player I ended up keeping, the Cambridge Azur 840C:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31DLYQ06XEL._SS500_.jpg)

One thing that influenced the purchase was the inclusion of 2 D/A inputs (1 coaxial or optical each).  So I can plug my Macbook optical out into the CD player.    There are also balanced outputs, though my pre-amp is only single ended.

I also recently acquired my first piece of tube gear, a used Rogue Magnum 99 pre-amp:

(http://www.savantaudio.com/RA99MI.JPG)

This adds a touch of tube warmth, texture, and fullness.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 13, 2008, 10:40:12 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 22, 2008, 06:54:27 AM
The problem with 2.1 systems consisting of very small satellite speakers is high crossover frequency between satellites and subwoofer. Here it seems to be 110 Hz which is pretty high and makes it difficult to obtain coherent soundfield. The location of subwoofer is also easily heard. I'd recommend 2.1 systems consisting of larger satellites that go down to 40-60 Hz leaving the lowest octave or so to subwoofer.

I haven't heard NHT Xd speaker system myself but I'd say you can do (soundwise) much better with $6000 and probably even with the half price.

I agree, I can here the localization approaching 80 Hz and higher.  If he used larger speakers he could could cross over at 80 Hz or lower and there wouldn't be a problem.  Now I haven't heard high end satellites, but I really have trouble imagining them projecting well. :-\
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 11:15:11 AM
Quote from: DavidW on December 13, 2008, 10:40:12 AM
I agree, I can here the localization approaching 80 Hz and higher.  If he used larger speakers he could could cross over at 80 Hz or lower and there wouldn't be a problem.  Now I haven't heard high end satellites, but I really have trouble imagining them projecting well. :-\

What does projecting mean?

Come on guys, what you imagine or theorize isn't very interesting if you haven't heard the speakers.

After I bought these, I started hearing good things about another DSP-based active system, the Emerald Physics CS2.  It's quite different from the NHT system in that it uses controlled dispersion to reduce room interaction and a Behringer digital crossover rather than a custom DEQX unit, so the user can tweak it for room correction.  You have to supply 4 channels of amplification yourself, though.  There's a rave in the latest TAS.  I've already blown my wad on speakers for a while, though. 

(http://www.stereotimes.com/images/Emerald-Physics-RAM-roomPS.jpg)

You can see the Behringer unit in the middle.





Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 11:27:10 AM
I will just address the system I have in my workroom, since that is the one I I have room to improve or mess with  (upstairs is sort of set and rather put the money here). (pics from the net)

Right now, I have this Pro-Ject Debut III turntable.
Manual turntable with fitted cartridge.  The Pro-Ject Debut includes a pre-mounted Ortofon OM-5E moving magnet phono cartridge and is an excellent choice for the audiophile seeking a cost effective vinyl playback solution. A felt-covered steel platter mates to a chrome plated stainless-steel axle running in a brass bearing housing for exceptional speed stability and accuracy. The aluminum tonearm employs inverted hardened stainless-steel points for superior tracking with the supplied phono cartridge. A silicone-damped armlift is supplied.

(http://www.butlin.com/2006_01/project_debphv.jpg)

It is hitched to this Realistic STA-2100 amp/receiver:

(http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image.php?image=362171&is_user=0)

The speakers are these:

Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 Bookshelf Speakers
Power 100w Nominal Impedence 6 ohm
Sensitivity 1W@1m 86dB
Frequency Range at-6dB 50Hz-24kHz
Cabinet size mm H296 W194 D278

(http://autosoundz.co.nz/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/DIAMOND9_1Rth.jpg)

However, I just learned from my brother-in-law that he no longer wants my dad's old Sansui floor speakers and Pioneer amp that we had in our living room back in the late 60's/ early 70's.  So, they are coming my way this month.  I cannot wait to hear the old system again.  Hopefully the cones do not need to be refurbished.

As for the cd player, I will not bother with the details as it needs replaced....soon.


Daverz,
Would much appreciate a top-ten classical vinyl list from you. 


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 13, 2008, 02:05:22 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 11:15:11 AM
Come on guys, what you imagine or theorize isn't very interesting if you haven't heard the speakers.

We're not theorizing, crossover localization is something anyone with a hifi has experience with.  Unless you mean to claim that your satellites have a low crossover frequency, but I really would doubt that.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 02:25:36 PM
Quote from: DavidW on December 13, 2008, 02:05:22 PM
We're not theorizing, crossover localization is something anyone with a hifi has experience with.  Unless you mean to claim that your satellites have a low crossover frequency, but I really would doubt that.

The crossover slope for the Xd system is 48db/octave, so I'm not sure you can judge it by experience with passive crossovers (typically 6, 12, or 18 dB/octave).  As I said before, I cannot hear the subwoofer location with this system, though that may be because of my batcave of a room.  I've considered going with the stereo subwoofer setup supported by the XdA processor, but I don't think I need it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 02:53:00 PM
Quote from: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 11:27:10 AM
The Pro-Ject Debut includes a pre-mounted Ortofon OM-5E moving magnet phono cartridge and is an excellent choice for the audiophile seeking a cost effective vinyl playback solution.[/i]

I recently picked up an Audio Technical 150mlx from, of all places, Amazon (via J&R Music World at half MSRP).  I was really impressed by this cartridge.  I have more comments on it here. (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=798989) 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DAX6JNX5L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

It has a replaceable microline stylus and is an excellent tracker.

However, because of the setup of my current equipment, I'm back to using my Benz Micro L2 moving coil.  I got it for half price, but I'm not really willing to pay that much again for something that starts wearing down on day one and costs as much for a retip as I originally paid for it.

Quote
It is hitched to this Realistic STA-2100 amp/receiver:

That's a beauty.

Quote
Daverz,
Would much appreciate a top-ten classical vinyl list from you. 

Oh, dear, I'm not Teresa.  I've only managed to collect 1 or 2 shaded dogs, for example.  But I'll think about it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 03:04:33 PM
Thanks.  It never gets passed the 9 o'clock on the volume knob.  Weighs more than my car, but I do enjoy it.

My Pro-Ject Debut III was within my price range as I re-entered the analogue world of music.  I read a few reviews and based my final purchase on that as it sounded GREAT at the stereo shop, but what doesn't with their set-ups.   However, as I shared with Allan,there are some other tables I would like to try, but  ;D:

http://www.bornrich.org/entry/top-10-most-expensive-turntables/

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 13, 2008, 03:10:33 PM



     (http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image.php?image=362171&is_user=0)

     Nice!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 03:13:38 PM
The only flaw with it is that the lighting is no longer working.  Is this a quick or difficult fix?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 03:23:04 PM
Quote from: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 03:13:38 PM
The only flaw with it is that the lighting is no longer working.  Is this a quick or difficult fix?

I bet someone on Audio Asylum would know:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/vintage/bbs.html
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 03:39:34 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 03:23:04 PM
I bet someone on Audio Asylum would know:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/vintage/bbs.html

I will register and post this weekend.  Thanks!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 13, 2008, 03:43:00 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 03:23:04 PM
I bet someone on Audio Asylum would know:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/vintage/bbs.html

   You might find a local tech who'd work on it. Sometimes it's the same guy who replaces the filter caps in old Fender/Marshall guitar amps. If you can't find a used audio place check out the local guitar shop. Often the guy does the work on site, or they'll recommend a tech. There's always someone to do this work.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 04:12:28 PM
Quote from: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 03:04:33 PM
http://www.bornrich.org/entry/top-10-most-expensive-turntables/

That $19,000 VPI looks like a bargain!

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 08:48:12 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 04:12:28 PM
That $19,000 VPI looks like a bargain!



I believe it comes with free shipping as well. 8) 

A couple months ago I had the privilege to attend an audio (no visual equipment, just audio) show here in Denver.  161 rooms of audio equipment.  Some neat stuff.  As I entered one room they saw I had purchased some vinyl from a dealer at the show.  They asked if it would be ok to play it on the turntable they had set up.  I told them I had no idea what the true condition of the vinyl was and they probably should just use their stuff.  However, they insisted, so I handed them a record.  In short, it sounded great.  Cost of the turntable: $90,000.  As I posted some time back, I had the opportunity at the same show to here a $250,000 system.  Now, this is all pie in the sky equipment for me, but I have to agree with my dad.  That is, in most cases, you get what you pay for.  More often than not, the higher end stuff just sounds better.  I am sure there is some equipment not worth its price, but when they played Sinatra on that 1/4 mill system, I was looking for my autograph book for him to sign.

Question: I noticed that many of the high end cd players had the cd so it was exposed and that it had some type of hub that you had to screw down over the top of it before playing.  Anyone else ever see one of these, or own one?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 09:04:00 PM
Here is one for $23,000.
(http://www.bornrich.org/images/r_most_expensive_cd_player_by_metronome_technologie.jpg)

Here is the one I believe I saw.  I was mistaken.  It seems it has a lid, but you can see the hub that goes over the cd.  Anyone know its purpose?

(http://www.mbl-germany.de/pix_1621/1621_03_500x330.jpg)

Here is their price list:
http://www.mbl-usa.com/Browse.aspx/402/mbl-Systems
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on December 13, 2008, 11:33:27 PM
Quote from: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 09:04:00 PM
  Anyone know its purpose?


To stabilize the disc, reduce vibrations and corresponding mistracking and henceforth the onset of error correction and signal interpolation.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 14, 2008, 05:15:06 AM
Quote from: erato on December 13, 2008, 11:33:27 PM
To stabilize the disc, reduce vibrations and corresponding mistracking and henceforth the onset of error correction and signal interpolation.

So, this has more to do with preventing reading errors than actually making it "sound" better.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on December 14, 2008, 05:56:50 AM
Quote from: Bogey on December 14, 2008, 05:15:06 AM
So, this has more to do with preventing reading errors than actually making it "sound" better.
Depends upon what you think about how error correction (and worse, signal interpolation) with the corresponding jitter, influences the resulting sound, a discussion there is no need to pursue further here.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 14, 2008, 06:21:22 AM
Quote from: erato on December 14, 2008, 05:56:50 AM
Depends upon what you think about how error correction (and worse, signal interpolation) with the corresponding jitter, influences the resulting sound, a discussion there is no need to pursue further here.

Thanks, though I disagree with your last point as I am in the market for a cd player (and the thread does have in the title "plan on getting") and was unaware of minor jitters that may influence sound.  However, you seem to have the knowledge about this component to answer one last question, if you will, about this aspect.  Are there any specs one could look at to determine if a cd player is at a decent level for stabilizing the cd?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 14, 2008, 06:58:15 AM
Quote from: Bogey on December 14, 2008, 06:21:22 AM
Thanks, though I disagree with your last point as I am in the market for a cd player (and the thread does have in the title "plan on getting") and was unaware of minor jitters that may influence sound.  However, you seem to have the knowledge about this component to answer one last question, if you will, about this aspect.  Are there any specs one could look at to determine if a cd player is at a decent level for stabilizing the cd?

Bill disregard audiophools blatherings about jitter, it's not audible.  Based on logical reasoning it's not audible.  Based on double blind tests it's not audible.  If anyone tells you that they can here jitter they are either deluded or lying to you.  Do not waste lots of money hoping to get rid of something that you can't hear anyway. 

Now after I post this there might be a few, there might even be many posters that will say things like "no fool! if you had the equipment that I had, you would know!" and they might even post long pseudoscience articles to make their point.  Don't read those articles, they will just waste your time, and will merely be posted to give a false air of authority to their claims.  Ignore anyone that tells they can hear jitter, they are fools.

And if you start buying expensive dacs and other equipment where does it end?  Soon enough you'll be buying snake oil cables, convinced that you can hear a difference when anyone with common sense knows that all cables sound the same for home purpose runs (< 10 m).  Just walk away, SAVE YOURSELF! :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 14, 2008, 07:03:59 AM
Quote from: DavidW on December 14, 2008, 06:58:15 AM
Bill disregard audiophools blatherings about jitter, it's not audible.  Based on logical reasoning it's not audible.  Based on double blind tests it's not audible.  If anyone tells you that they can here jitter they are either deluded or lying to you.  Do not waste lots of money hoping to get rid of something that you can't hear anyway. 

Now after I post this there might be a few, there might even be many posters that will say things like "no fool! if you had the equipment that I had, you would know!" and they might even post long pseudoscience articles to make their point.  Don't read those articles, they will just waste your time, and will merely be posted to give a false air of authority to their claims.  Ignore anyone that tells they can hear jitter, they are fools.

And if you start buying expensive dacs and other equipment where does it end?  Soon enough you'll be buying snake oil cables, convinced that you can hear a difference when anyone with common sense knows that all cables sound the same for home purpose runs (< 10 m).  Just walk away, SAVE YOURSELF! :D

:D


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 14, 2008, 09:02:43 AM
Quote from: DavidW on December 14, 2008, 06:58:15 AM
Bill disregard audiophools blatherings about jitter, it's not audible.  Based on logical reasoning it's not audible.  Based on double blind tests it's not audible.  If anyone tells you that they can here jitter they are either deluded or lying to you.  Do not waste lots of money hoping to get rid of something that you can't hear anyway. 

Now after I post this there might be a few, there might even be many posters that will say things like "no fool! if you had the equipment that I had, you would know!" and they might even post long pseudoscience articles to make their point.  Don't read those articles, they will just waste your time, and will merely be posted to give a false air of authority to their claims.  Ignore anyone that tells they can hear jitter, they are fools.

And if you start buying expensive dacs and other equipment where does it end?  Soon enough you'll be buying snake oil cables, convinced that you can hear a difference when anyone with common sense knows that all cables sound the same for home purpose runs (< 10 m).  Just walk away, SAVE YOURSELF! :D


     Would you like to hear some jitter? The only way you can hear it is by deliberately boosting it to levels far higher than your player will produce, even if it's not a very good player specwise.

     Here's the jitter track from the Stereophile Test CD 2 Turn your speakers down before you run the test. It's unpleasant and could damage your speakers.

     Jitter demonstration track with spoken warning (L+R) (DDD) 0:48
11kHz at -10dBFS (00:12), 11kHz affected by 10ns p-p jitter of 4kHz tone (00:22), 11kHz pure (00:37)
     


     [mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/Jitter.mp3[/mp3]

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 14, 2008, 09:14:20 AM
Quote from: drogulus on December 14, 2008, 09:02:43 AM

     Would you like to hear some jitter? The only way you can hear it is by deliberately boosting it to levels far higher than your player will produce, even if it's not a very good player specwise.

     Here's the jitter track from the Stereophile Test CD 2 Turn your speakers down before you run the test. It's unpleasant and could damage your speakers.

     Jitter demonstration track with spoken warning (L+R) (DDD) 0:48
11kHz at -10dBFS (00:12), 11kHz affected by 10ns p-p jitter of 4kHz tone (00:22), 11kHz pure (00:37)
     


     [mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/Jitter.mp3[/mp3]

     

Awesome Ernie!  Even when artificially boosted and put in a simple tone where you shouldn't miss it, it's still subtle!! :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 14, 2008, 09:39:41 AM
Quote from: drogulus on December 14, 2008, 09:02:43 AM

     Would you like to hear some jitter? The only way you can hear it is by deliberately boosting it to levels far higher than your player will produce, even if it's not a very good player specwise.

     Here's the jitter track from the Stereophile Test CD 2 Turn your speakers down before you run the test. It's unpleasant and could damage your speakers.

     Jitter demonstration track with spoken warning (L+R) (DDD) 0:48
11kHz at -10dBFS (00:12), 11kHz affected by 10ns p-p jitter of 4kHz tone (00:22), 11kHz pure (00:37)
     


     [mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/Jitter.mp3[/mp3]

     

Wow.  Thanks for that.  Sounded like some sonic weapon from Star Trek.  So, in short, this is not a spec that I need to even worry about.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 14, 2008, 09:51:55 AM
Quote from: Bogey on December 14, 2008, 09:39:41 AM
Wow.  Thanks for that.  Sounded like some sonic weapon from Star Trek.  So, in short, this is not a spec that I need to even worry about.

Well the tone was the sonic weapon, the jitter was the hiccup. ;D  Well I guess you would need to worry about it if you want to build sonic weapons. ;D tehehe
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on December 14, 2008, 12:34:43 PM
Quote from: DavidW on December 14, 2008, 06:58:15 AM
Bill disregard audiophools blatherings about jitter, it's not audible.  Based on logical reasoning it's not audible.  Based on double blind tests it's not audible.  If anyone tells you that they can here jitter they are either deluded or lying to you.  Do not waste lots of money hoping to get rid of something that you can't hear anyway. 

David, really wonderful automobiles can run twice, or three times as fast as you ever want to drive. Really good food has all kind of mini-componenets you don't really taste until you're told it's there. There's stuff going on in a Mahler symfony you don't really notice till someone who's read the score points it out t you. The list is endless.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on December 14, 2008, 01:00:25 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 04:12:28 PM
That $19,000 VPI looks like a bargain!

What shocked me at first with that link was that they referred to it as the TEAC VPI HR-X1, because I've always known VPI as a small, family-run company.  As far as I can tell, to my relief, TEAC is only taking care of distribution in Asia.  $19,000 is the import price for Japan.  In North America, you can get it for a (somewhat) more reasonable $12,000.  Great company with outstanding customer service.  I own one of their budget models that I bought used.  I've contacted them with questions about it and have always received prompt, helpful responses, even though they've never made a cent off me. 

http://www.vpiindustries.com/index.htm
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 17, 2008, 01:05:16 PM
Quote from: Herman on December 14, 2008, 12:34:43 PM
David, really wonderful automobiles can run twice, or three times as fast as you ever want to drive. Really good food has all kind of mini-componenets you don't really taste until you're told it's there. There's stuff going on in a Mahler symfony you don't really notice till someone who's read the score points it out t you. The list is endless.

   Based on this reasoning you could never build a grass hut. What about all the unknown ingredients that may or may not contribute in some unknowable way to holding it up?

   It's pretty much standard procedure to assume that the unknown factors, whatever they are, don't matter. And if every test you do shows this to be the case (meaning you can see that the component performs as theory and past practice says it should) then there's nothing for an unknown factor to do. Equipment designed according to conventional engineering principles performs in exactly the same way as the audiophile stuff. The exceptions consist mostly of oddball stuff like tube amps that actually perform worse.*

    *I do admire the coolness factor of the tube gear. :D Coolness plays a large part in the audiophile belief system. So does impracticality, as a sign of commitment.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on December 17, 2008, 01:24:17 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 17, 2008, 01:05:16 PM
   Based on this reasoning you could never build a grass hut. What about all the unknown ingredients that may or may not contribute in some unknowable way to holding it up?

   It's pretty much standard procedure to assume that the unknown factors, whatever they are, don't matter. And if every test you do shows this to be the case (meaning you can see that the component performs as theory and past practice says it should) then there's nothing for an unknown factor to do. Equipment designed according to conventional engineering principles performs in exactly the same way as the audiophile stuff. The exceptions consist mostly of oddball stuff like tube amps that actually perform worse.*

    *I do admire the coolness factor of the tube gear. :D Coolness plays a large part in the audiophile belief system. So does impracticality, as a sign of commitment.

I wasn't talking about unknown factors. In good equipment every detail has a specific function and it all adds up.

Good speaker wire works (and I'm not talking about silly hugely expensive stuff) better than nasty cheap Radio Shack wires, and it works better if you don't tie it up in knots with power cables under the shelves.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 17, 2008, 01:42:40 PM
Quote from: Herman on December 17, 2008, 01:24:17 PM
Good speaker wire works (and I'm not talking about silly hugely expensive stuff) better than nasty cheap Radio Shack wires, and it works better if you don't tie it up in knots with power cables under the shelves.

Actually research has shown that there is no audible difference between cheap and expensive cables for the typical short runs done for home hifis.  I've actually seen it in an article from a reputable magazine.  Those "nasty cheap" 16 gauge copper wire is pretty much the industry standard anyway.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 17, 2008, 09:54:00 PM
Quote from: DavidW on December 17, 2008, 01:42:40 PM
Actually research has shown that there is no audible difference between cheap and expensive cables for the typical short runs done for home hifis.  I've actually seen it in an article from a reputable magazine.  Those "nasty cheap" 16 gauge copper wire is pretty much the industry standard anyway.

But for some reason there IS a difference in sound between certain cables. My setup is living testament to that.

However, I'm NOT a person that is happy with this!!

Luckily I've had the privilege of home audition between cable brands (interconnects and speaker cables) and I will swear on a stack of Bibles that there is a difference in performance. Yes, I said performance.

The auditions allowed me the luxury of simple A B C testing without committing to buying anything. First I auditioned three brands of speaker cables: one expensive, one mid-priced, and one low end (bargain-bin, actually). To my surprise - and relief!! - the low end cable sounded the best in my system. The others each had issues with coloration, masking sound, etc. Why would that be? I don't have a clue but it was readily audible. Needless to say the low end speaker cable now resides in my system.

Next came interconnects. Again, one expensive, one mid-priced, and one low end. But this time the audible differences led me to the expensive brand (though I bought it second-hand). The mid-priced and low end cables sounded dull. And again it was readily audible. Easily discernible.

So, what does this prove? That something is amiss somewhere because cable SHOULD just be cable. I am NOT one that subscribes to the pleasure theory of home stereo. Mine is for listening, not for showing off to my friends. In fact, I take great pride in the fact my speaker cable is bargain-bin stuff. That'll show those high-end brands! ;D


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 18, 2008, 01:14:13 PM
Quote from: donwyn on December 17, 2008, 09:54:00 PM
But for some reason there IS a difference in sound between certain cables. My setup is living testament to that.




     I agree that for some reason your system can sound different when you substitute one cable for another. I've experienced similar effects. This is an example of an unknown factor that disappears when you do a blind test.

Quote from: Herman on December 17, 2008, 01:24:17 PM
I wasn't talking about unknown factors. In good equipment every detail has a specific function and it all adds up.

Good speaker wire works (and I'm not talking about silly hugely expensive stuff) better than nasty cheap Radio Shack wires, and it works better if you don't tie it up in knots with power cables under the shelves.

    Works better how? How are you differentiating between your reactions to what you hear and what is really going on? How do you avoid the placebo effect? Qualitative judgments are colored by expectations. When blind testing is done to remove this known factor no difference remains. If the cables meet the spec they function the same even if one is cheap and the other is expensive.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 18, 2008, 03:19:16 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 18, 2008, 01:14:13 PM
     I agree that for some reason your system can sound different when you substitute one cable for another. I've experienced similar effects.

My system sounds much better after I dust.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 18, 2008, 04:48:59 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 18, 2008, 03:19:16 PM
My system sounds much better after I dust.

     You dust:o

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 18, 2008, 05:38:53 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 18, 2008, 04:48:59 PM
     You dust:o

<Looks around to see if drogulus is looking in his windows and knows what his condo really looks like.  Nope, coast is clear.>

Why of course.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2008, 05:51:17 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 18, 2008, 01:14:13 PM
     I agree that for some reason your system can sound different when you substitute one cable for another. I've experienced similar effects. This is an example of an unknown factor that disappears when you do a blind test.

    Works better how? How are you differentiating between your reactions to what you hear and what is really going on? How do you avoid the placebo effect? Qualitative judgments are colored by expectations. When blind testing is done to remove this known factor no difference remains. If the cables meet the spec they function the same even if one is cheap and the other is expensive.

Herman seems to be talking about mixing power cables with speaker cables. As an electrician for 27 years, I am very well aware that the induced transients in a signal cable that arise from being in too close proximity to the power cables can screw up even an indelicate piece of equipment. If they can do that, they certainly can screw up an audio signal in a speaker wire. And although I am clearly in the camp of those who aren't buying lunar green cheese, I will buy this one with no problem... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to: Michael Thompson Wind Quintet - Reicha - Op 91 #6 Wind Quintet in c 1st mvmt - Marcia: Poco adagio - Allegro vivace
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 18, 2008, 09:46:08 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 18, 2008, 01:14:13 PM
     I agree that for some reason your system can sound different when you substitute one cable for another. I've experienced similar effects. This is an example of an unknown factor that disappears when you do a blind test.

Well, I've never taken a blind test but as a flag-waving skeptic I don't need to jump through such hoops to be convinced of things. I can conduct my own tests which certainly is more in keeping with the hobby aspect of hi-fi (how often this gets forgotten).

But really you don't say that you yourself have been involved in a blind test, only that it's a sure-fire cure for the person inflicted with cable-itus. Almost as if your own ears told you one thing but reading about blind tests convinced you that you were wrong.

Not very scientific!! :D

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 18, 2008, 11:20:56 PM
Scientific or not, my ears are the norm, and they say regardless what other experts on the board say, that there is a huge sound difference in cables, and I invested in Nordost Valhalla, because I started with low res cable, and when I listen my way upwards, I could hear the huge sound steps, cables where implementing, and yes also in blind testing I could hear the improvements.
But there is clearly a division between those that can hear and those that can not.
That's the stuff for war with words. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on December 19, 2008, 01:18:30 AM
Quote from: Harry on December 18, 2008, 11:20:56 PM

But there is clearly a division between those that can hear and those that can not.

I would say the division are between those that can hear the differnce when played blind under controlled conditions and pick up the difference consistently, and those who can hear the difference when they know what they listen to. Most of us belong on the second category (me too), how many belong in the first is a mainly unknown quatity, as most cable proponents for some mysterious reason aren't very eager to undergo that kind of testing.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 19, 2008, 03:53:32 AM
So, any recs here for "decent" cables that will not cost more than my entire system?  Right now I have "crapola" and would be happy to see if marginal improvements to my cables make a difference.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 19, 2008, 04:36:33 AM
Quote from: Bogey on December 19, 2008, 03:53:32 AM
So, any recs here for "decent" cables that will not cost more than my entire system?  Right now I have "crapola" and would be happy to see if marginal improvements to my cables make a difference.

What did I say before?  Snake oil!  Jeez, seriously don't go to audiophilia insanity, it will hurt you, your psyche, your family, and where it most hurts-- your wallet! ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on December 19, 2008, 06:52:47 AM

  Since all of my music has been ripped to 256 kbps AAC format I am seriously considering getting the SONOS Wireless music system.  My CD player will not change but I have to buy new speakers. For my speakers I am thinking of the Monitor label not sure which speakers just yet??  Is anyone here familiar with the SONOS system and monitor speakers?  If you are I would appreciate any advice you could give me.  Here's a link to sonos and monitor websites:

  www.sonos.com (http://www.sonos.com)
  www.monitoraudio.co.uk (http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk)
 
  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: toledobass on December 19, 2008, 08:09:56 AM
Quote from: Bogey on December 19, 2008, 03:53:32 AM
So, any recs here for "decent" cables that will not cost more than my entire system?  Right now I have "crapola" and would be happy to see if marginal improvements to my cables make a difference.

I love the Kimber Kables I have as my interconnects.  They aren't all that expensive in comparison to some of stuff out there and they look cool :P

Allan
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 19, 2008, 08:13:08 AM
Quote from: Bogey on December 19, 2008, 03:53:32 AM
So, any recs here for "decent" cables that will not cost more than my entire system?  Right now I have "crapola" and would be happy to see if marginal improvements to my cables make a difference.

Try the inexpensive VanderHul cables and interlinks. :)
Second hand is also a option.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 19, 2008, 08:15:55 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 19, 2008, 06:52:47 AM
  Since all of my music has been ripped to 256 kbps AAC format I am seriously considering getting the SONOS Wireless music system.  My CD player will not change but I have to buy new speakers. For my speakers I am thinking of the Monitor label not sure which speakers just yet??  Is anyone here familiar with the SONOS system and monitor speakers?  If you are I would appreciate any advice you could give me.  Here's a link to sonos and monitor websites:

  www.sonos.com (http://www.sonos.com)
  www.monitoraudio.co.uk (http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk)
 
  marvin

My experience with divers Monitor Audio speakers, was always a pleasant one. Those guys are dedicated in making good speakers. See that you get a matching amplification, those speakers are very picky what they accept and what not.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 19, 2008, 01:06:54 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 19, 2008, 06:52:47 AM
For my speakers I am thinking of the Monitor label not sure which speakers just yet?? 

I've heard Monitor speakers at a friend's house and in the shop.  I like them (very tight bass, really great for Bruckner!), but they can tend to be glassy sounding with the wrong equipment.  Here's the Stereophile review of the RS6. (http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/306monitor/)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 19, 2008, 01:40:03 PM
Quote from: donwyn on December 18, 2008, 09:46:08 PM
Well, I've never taken a blind test but as a flag-waving skeptic I don't need to jump through such hoops to be convinced of things. I can conduct my own tests which certainly is more in keeping with the hobby aspect of hi-fi (how often this gets forgotten).

But really you don't say that you yourself have been involved in a blind test, only that it's a sure-fire cure for the person inflicted with cable-itus. Almost as if your own ears told you one thing but reading about blind tests convinced you that you were wrong.

Not very scientific!! :D



    I disagree. Scientific results are not just valid for the participants. And the results do explain why these differences can so easily be made to disappear. Also, I wasn't on the 1919 expedition that confirmed the bending of light by the suns gravity, so I can't say for sure that it happened. Am I wrong to be so trusting?  :D

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2008, 05:51:17 PM
Herman seems to be talking about mixing power cables with speaker cables. As an electrician for 27 years, I am very well aware that the induced transients in a signal cable that arise from being in too close proximity to the power cables can screw up even an indelicate piece of equipment. If they can do that, they certainly can screw up an audio signal in a speaker wire. And although I am clearly in the camp of those who aren't buying lunar green cheese, I will buy this one with no problem... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to: Michael Thompson Wind Quintet - Reicha - Op 91 #6 Wind Quintet in c 1st mvmt - Marcia: Poco adagio - Allegro vivace

     Oh yeah?? Well......Splunge!

Quote from: Harry on December 18, 2008, 11:20:56 PM
Scientific or not, my ears are the norm, and they say regardless what other experts on the board say, that there is a huge sound difference in cables, and I invested in Nordost Valhalla, because I started with low res cable, and when I listen my way upwards, I could hear the huge sound steps, cables where implementing, and yes also in blind testing I could hear the improvements.
But there is clearly a division between those that can hear and those that can not.
That's the stuff for war with words. ;D

    I know you can hear these differences, and I know I used to hear them and maybe still can hear them. I just don't understand how you can trust your ears when they tell you one thing and not trust them when they tell you something else. How is that trusting? I trust the results of the double blind tests as well as the placebo effect because together they explain both what is heard as well as what is not heard under a variety of conditions.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 19, 2008, 02:04:34 PM
Quote from: Bogey on December 19, 2008, 03:53:32 AM
So, any recs here for "decent" cables that will not cost more than my entire system?  Right now I have "crapola" and would be happy to see if marginal improvements to my cables make a difference.

     Do you mean your cables sound bad?

     One way I got out of this rut was by thinking seriously about the judgments I made about this kind of thing. My CD player didn't sound bad in any particular way, I was just vaguely dissatisfied and I wanted to have that really cool one that I saw in the magazine. That would certainly sound better, I thought, and the skeptics (I knew a little about them) just seemed like spoilsports. After a while I started to think about the disappearing differences and why the judgments seemed so vague. Then I began to notice the evasive argumentation of the proponents (a big point was made about the hearing of sceptics, not a wise move in the long run). Finally I did some research and over a period of several years I gradually dropped all my audio mystic beliefs.

     What color would you say this ring is?

     (http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7805/ringet8.jpg)

     Don't you trust your eyes?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 19, 2008, 03:41:27 PM
The ring looks red/pink, alright Ernie I know this must be optical illusion since you posted so what color is it really? ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 19, 2008, 04:26:22 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 19, 2008, 01:40:03 PM
    I disagree. Scientific results are not just valid for the participants. And the results do explain why these differences can so easily be made to disappear. Also, I wasn't on the 1919 expedition that confirmed the bending of light by the suns gravity, so I can't say for sure that it happened. Am I wrong to be so trusting?  :D

We're not talking quantum mechanics, here. We're talking about something that's as do-it-yourself as it gets - home stereo.

If you must leave it to the "experts" to tell you how to run your home stereo, then you have my sympathies.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2008, 05:14:43 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 19, 2008, 02:04:34 PM
     
     What color would you say this ring is?

     (http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7805/ringet8.jpg)

     Don't you trust your eyes?

There is no ring, per se, rather, the screen is colored and it makes a vestigial "pinkness" on the white background (which is white). So is the implication that the ears are dithering in "sound" to fill in what isn't actually there? If so, I think I can go along with that. :)

8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 19, 2008, 05:18:42 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2008, 05:14:43 PM
There is no ring, per se, rather, the screen is colored and it makes a vestigial "pinkness" on the white background (which is white). So is the implication that the ears are dithering in "sound" to fill in what isn't actually there? If so, I think I can go along with that. :)

8)

Good one Gurn! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on December 20, 2008, 01:29:09 AM
Quote from: Harry on December 19, 2008, 08:15:55 AM
My experience with divers Monitor Audio speakers, was always a pleasant one. Those guys are dedicated in making good speakers. See that you get a matching amplification, those speakers are very picky what they accept and what not.

Quote from: Daverz on December 19, 2008, 01:06:54 PM
I've heard Monitor speakers at a friend's house and in the shop.  I like them (very tight bass, really great for Bruckner!), but they can tend to be glassy sounding with the wrong equipment.  Here's the Stereophile review of the RS6. (http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/306monitor/)

  Gentlemen thank you so much for your replies. I'll have to investigate if the amplifiers/CD players with amplifiers I have are the "right" equipment for the monitor speakers I plan to buy.   

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on December 20, 2008, 03:51:39 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2008, 05:51:17 PM
Herman seems to be talking about mixing power cables with speaker cables. As an electrician for 27 years, I am very well aware that the induced transients in a signal cable that arise from being in too close proximity to the power cables can screw up even an indelicate piece of equipment. If they can do that, they certainly can screw up an audio signal in a speaker wire. And although I am clearly in the camp of those who aren't buying lunar green cheese, I will buy this one with no problem... :)

That was one simple aspect I was talking about. A lot of people would get much better results from even the most mundane equipment if they didn't stack the equipment and if they would keep speaker cable and power cable well apart.

I also think using good power cable, speaker cable and interconnects helps, though I'm aware "good" ranges from affordable to completely silly.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 20, 2008, 11:30:28 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 20, 2008, 01:29:09 AM
  Gentlemen thank you so much for your replies. I'll have to investigate if the amplifiers/CD players with amplifiers I have are the "right" equipment for the monitor speakers I plan to buy.   

Will the dealer let you do a home audition?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 20, 2008, 11:46:04 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 20, 2008, 11:30:28 AM
Will the dealer let you do a home audition?

That is the key if you truly want to test a system.  Without, it is VERY difficult to tell IMO.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 20, 2008, 11:59:38 AM
Quote from: donwyn on December 19, 2008, 04:26:22 PM
We're not talking quantum mechanics, here. We're talking about something that's as do-it-yourself as it gets - home stereo.

If you must leave it to the "experts" to tell you how to run your home stereo, then you have my sympathies.



    I don't leave it to the experts, I use their knowledge to help me understand my reactions. Why are they so vague, like the pinkish ring that isn't there? :D

   
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 20, 2008, 01:29:09 AM
  Gentlemen thank you so much for your replies. I'll have to investigate if the amplifiers/CD players with amplifiers I have are the "right" equipment for the monitor speakers I plan to buy.  

  marvin

    I know this sounds like I'm just peddling a line, and a minority line at that, but it really matters what your concept of investigating is. Frequently you'll be told to trust your ears, which has sort of a Frank Capra-ish "hooray for the little guy" ring to it. And we all know how much eggheads contribute to the misery of the world with their bombs....(OK, stop it!!)

    What I mean to say is that while speakers and amps sound different in ways that require you to use your ears to choose, most other components don't. If you only consult audiophile opinion you'll be encouraged to make the same mistakes they (I!) made. So get a second opinion, do a little research outside the lines and then decide. End of sermon.   8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 20, 2008, 12:04:25 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 20, 2008, 11:59:38 AM
    I don't leave it to the experts, I use their knowledge to help me understand my reactions. Why are they so vague, like the pinkish ring that isn't there? :D


What pinkish ring?  ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 20, 2008, 01:00:57 PM


    That's the spirit!  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 20, 2008, 04:08:36 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 20, 2008, 11:59:38 AM
     I don't leave it to the experts, I use their knowledge to help me understand my reactions.

I fail to understand why a hobby should require such rigorous psychological examination. 

QuoteWhy are they so vague, like the pinkish ring that isn't there? :D

Because a ring is boring. Now, if you had said it was a donut...


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 20, 2008, 04:11:49 PM
Quote from: donwyn on December 20, 2008, 04:08:36 PM
I fail to understand why a hobby should require such rigorous psychological examination. 




     Only because it has to be fun.  :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 20, 2008, 04:20:43 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 20, 2008, 04:11:49 PM
     Only because it has to be fun.  :D

You need outside help to make home stereo fun?


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on December 21, 2008, 01:36:39 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 20, 2008, 11:30:28 AM
Will the dealer let you do a home audition?

  Not sure just yet I'll have to ask  ???.  I can see how that can be beneficial though.  The acoustics of the rooms should be determining factor. 



Quote from: drogulus on December 20, 2008, 11:59:38 AM
    I don't leave it to the experts, I use their knowledge to help me understand my reactions. Why are they so vague, like the pinkish ring that isn't there? :D

   
    I know this sounds like I'm just peddling a line, and a minority line at that, but it really matters what your concept of investigating is. Frequently you'll be told to trust your ears, which has sort of a Frank Capra-ish "hooray for the little guy" ring to it. And we all know how much eggheads contribute to the misery of the world with their bombs....(OK, stop it!!)

    What I mean to say is that while speakers and amps sound different in ways that require you to use your ears to choose, most other components don't. If you only consult audiophile opinion you'll be encouraged to make the same mistakes they (I!) made. So get a second opinion, do a little research outside the lines and then decide. End of sermon.   8)

   By investigating further I meant hearing the system play various genres (opera, symphonies, chamber music etc.), my porsonal taste is quite important.  But I also need some guidance, so I will be looking for advice. It's difficult for me to say at this point what it is excatly that I am looking for. Yes I am a bit lost, but as they say what better way to find yourself than to get lost!   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 22, 2008, 12:15:55 PM
Quote from: donwyn on December 20, 2008, 04:20:43 PM
You need outside help to make home stereo fun?




    Sadly, yes. I read magazines, go to websites, try to get questions answered.

    Why can't I just enjoy life like a normal person?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on December 22, 2008, 12:38:20 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 22, 2008, 12:15:55 PM
    Sadly, yes. I read magazines, go to websites, try to get questions answered.

    Why can't I just enjoy life like a normal person?

well, with all due respect, you don't seem like a Truly Normal Person, looking at this thread.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 22, 2008, 01:14:15 PM
     
Quote from: Herman on December 22, 2008, 12:38:20 PM
well, with all due respect, you don't seem like a Truly Normal Person, looking at this thread.

     (http://forums.mozillazine.org/images/smilies/new_Eyecrazy.gif)
     
   
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2008, 05:14:43 PM
There is no ring, per se, rather, the screen is colored and it makes a vestigial "pinkness" on the white background (which is white). So is the implication that the ears are dithering in "sound" to fill in what isn't actually there? If so, I think I can go along with that. :)

8)

     We don't respond directly to sensory inputs without first running them through judgmental filters that tell us how to react to them. When we try to see/hear things "as they are" something gets in the way, the judgment that we already made. If you focus on the process itself you can undo the illusion in some cases. With music this requires special tests because sounds don't persist well in memory. Because a visual illusion persists (like the ring) you can actually make your self unsee it in a way you can't easily do with music. There's a pattern to these illusions: They tend to be false positives where you see or hear things that are not there. But there are also false negatives, like change blindness (http://www.usd.edu/psyc301/ChangeBlindness.htm).

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 22, 2008, 09:14:11 PM
(http://www.sumikoaudio.net/sme/images/products/prod_model309.jpg)

I've wanted to upgrade my tonearm for some time from the Rega RB300 I've had for ages, and also get an arm with a removeable headshell to make cartridge swapping easier.  A used SME 309 finally came up for auction at Audiogon at a reasonable price (at least reasonable compared to the nearly double amount the US importer charges over the UK price.) 

No, it won't play CDs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 23, 2008, 04:28:11 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 22, 2008, 09:14:11 PM
(http://www.sumikoaudio.net/sme/images/products/prod_model309.jpg)

I've wanted to upgrade my tonearm for some time from the Rega RB300 I've had for ages, and also get an arm with a removeable headshell to make cartridge swapping easier.  A used SME 309 finally came up for auction at Audiogon at a reasonable price (at least reasonable compared to the nearly double amount the US importer charges over the UK price.) 

No, it won't play CDs.

Do you have the skill to replace it, or would the shop do that? 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 23, 2008, 03:43:24 PM
Quote from: Bogey on December 23, 2008, 04:28:11 AM
Do you have the skill to replace it, or would the shop do that? 

Pretty much on my own here since I bought used.  I think it would be rude to presume on the local SME dealer after bypassing him, or on my Michell dealer as he sells Moerch tonearms.  I did rewire my RB300 myself, so that sort of thing doesn't intimidate me too much, though I ended up paying a tech to solder on the cartridge clips on the hair thin wire. 

I took a look at the SME 309 manual, and it's one of the most detailed manuals I've ever seen for any kind of equipment, really outstanding.  A few things confused me, and the writing is sometimes quaint, but hopefully with the arm in my hands things will become clear.

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/sme/309.shtml

(You have to register to download the manual.)

I do have to remove the old Rega armboard on the Michell and install a new SME one, something I've never done.  I'll have to see if I have the right tools for that.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on December 24, 2008, 10:59:47 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 23, 2008, 03:43:24 PM
Pretty much on my own here since I bought used.  I think it would be rude to presume on the local SME dealer after bypassing him, or on my Michell dealer as he sells Moerch tonearms.  I did rewire my RB300 myself, so that sort of thing doesn't intimidate me too much, though I ended up paying a tech to solder on the cartridge clips on the hair thin wire. 

If you're at all in doubt, don't hesitate to ask your local dealer.  To my mind, anyone dealing with analogue these days is at least partly in it for the love of it, not just the business, so they might not mind you asking.  My local dealer has never hesitated to do any work asked, often for free, even though I offer to pay.  But is sounds like you've got some experience.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 24, 2008, 12:19:47 PM


    What I'm planning on getting (the currant fantasy, that is) is a new receiver. I want to hook it up to the cable box and from there to a new PC monitor which will also be a TV/movie display. So I will have an HDMI connection from the cable to the receiver and another to the TV/monitor. The receiver will handle audio for everything: TV, DVD/BD player, and all computer functions including music, games etc.

    My one requirement beyond the necessity for HDMI is that the receiver be fairly shallow to fit on my desk shelf next to the computer. Right now I'm looking at the SONY STR-DG820:

     (http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/products/2008/158/h158STDG820-f.jpeg)

     This isn't what I'd get if I didn't have space restrictions. It doesn't have pre-outs, which I'd really like. It will do the job in a small room, though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 24, 2008, 06:17:44 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 24, 2008, 12:19:47 PM
  So I will have an HDMI connection

I don't see a DSD logo.  Odd, since Sony were the ones pushing SACD and DSD originally.

The UPS guy brought 4 of these today:

(http://i6.ebayimg.com/07/i/001/08/08/a5fb_2.JPG)

RCA 6SN7 GT tubes for my pre-amp.

Also recently I've been thinking about getting more into do-it-yourself projects, so I ordered the PCB and parts for this little guy:

(http://www.hagtech.com/images/bugle.jpg)

The Hagermann Bugle phono pre-amp (it uses op amps).  This is just warm up for the Piccolo head amp kit.  He has kits for a line stage, a tube phono pre-amp, a tube headphone amp, and several other things.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 24, 2008, 06:56:52 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 24, 2008, 06:17:44 PM
I don't see a DSD logo.  Odd, since Sony were the ones pushing SACD and DSD originally.

The UPS guy brought 4 of these today:

(http://i6.ebayimg.com/07/i/001/08/08/a5fb_2.JPG)

RCA 6SN7 GT tubes for my pre-amp.

Also recently I've been thinking about getting more into do-it-yourself projects, so I ordered the PCB and parts for this little guy:

(http://www.hagtech.com/images/bugle.jpg)

The Hagermann Bugle phono pre-amp (it uses op amps).  This is just warm up for the Piccolo head amp kit.  He has kits for a line stage, a tube phono pre-amp, a tube headphone amp, and several other things.



I cannot follow all of this, but my gut is good at telling me when something is stinkin' cool and this is one of those times.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 24, 2008, 08:42:35 PM
Quote from: Bogey on December 24, 2008, 06:56:52 PM
I cannot follow all of this, but my gut is good at telling me when something is stinkin' cool and this is one of those times.

If you're talking about tubes, yeah I know next to nothing about them, either.  It is a little intimidating.  I got these from my pre-amp maker, Rogue Audio (I called and talked to one of the owners.)  They selected the tubes and tested them for me.

For the do-it-yourself stuff, even though I have a degree in Physics, I've forgotten much of the electronics I learned, and I never really developed a feel for circuits.  I'd like to get more hands on with it.  I'm really impressed with what some of the DIY guys are doing.  One of the projects that intrigues me is hooking up an SACD player directly to a high-end DAC like this one (http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalo.aspx).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 25, 2008, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 24, 2008, 06:17:44 PM
I don't see a DSD logo.  Odd, since Sony were the ones pushing SACD and DSD originally.




     I don't think anyone makes an inexpensive receiver with DSD decoding. Since any player I get would resample to PCM for bass managment (or the receiver would if it had that ability) I don't see a problem.

Quote from: Daverz on December 24, 2008, 08:42:35 PM
If you're talking about tubes, yeah I know next to nothing about them, either.  It is a little intimidating.  I got these from my pre-amp maker, Rogue Audio (I called and talked to one of the owners.)  They selected the tubes and tested them for me.

For the do-it-yourself stuff, even though I have a degree in Physics, I've forgotten much of the electronics I learned, and I never really developed a feel for circuits.  I'd like to get more hands on with it.  I'm really impressed with what some of the DIY guys are doing.  One of the projects that intrigues me is hooking up an SACD player directly to a high-end DAC like this one (http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalo.aspx).


     There's a boutique guitar/bass amp that uses these octals instead of 12ax7's.

     Alessandro Amp

     (http://www.alessandro-products.com/Images/kowwgoldb_web.jpg) (http://www.alessandro-products.com/Images/RBSinMaplecabb.jpg)

     These amps are supposed to be good, and the basic models without the frills are not that much more than vintage reissues from Marshall/Fender etc. You can see a 6SL7 peeking out from between the power tubes (6550's).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on December 27, 2008, 04:11:47 AM
Quote from: drogulus on December 25, 2008, 12:38:58 PM
   

     There's a boutique guitar/bass amp that uses these octals instead of 12ax7's.

     Alessandro Amp

     

Certainly a thing of beauty.  However, I recall having an internet exchange with a well-known jazz guitarist who used to endorse these amps, and he said he gave them up because of their unreliability.  (Admittedly, it doesn't look like the kind of thing that was meant to be taken out on the road.)

Quote from: Daverz on December 24, 2008, 06:17:44 PM
The Hagermann Bugle phono pre-amp (it uses op amps).  This is just warm up for the Piccolo head amp kit.  He has kits for a line stage, a tube phono pre-amp, a tube headphone amp, and several other things.

I've built his Cornet phono pre kit, and highly recommend it.  Unbeatable performance/dollar ratio (once you omit the "sweat equity" factor of building it yourself) and pretty much idiot-proof in construction (has to be, since this idiot managed to build it!).  Some acquaintances of mine have the Bugle and praise it highly.  Good choice!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 27, 2008, 04:11:39 PM

      There's this guy in Sturbridge, MA who works on old tube equipment, and he'll also assemble an amp kit for you. Here's one:

     (http://lh5.ggpht.com/_sl51_VYV6Jo/R4px8qys-7I/AAAAAAAAGy4/Hf9z_N6KVeQ/s720/DSCF1304v01.jpg)

      It's a Dynaco ST-70 power amp (2x35 wpc). The kit plus assembly is $845. The kit alone is $695 so the guy is not making a fortune for his work. With a couple of high sensitivity speakers you could get a huge sound out of this.

     He also works on these old radios, some of which are really beautiful.

     (http://radioattic.com/images/bartells/Bartells_Zenith_5-S-319_(1939).jpg) (http://radioattic.com/images/park/Park_Airline_62-217_(1935).jpg) (http://radioattic.com/images/park/Park_Emerson_K-121_(1936).jpg) (http://radioattic.com/images/latino/Latino_Radio-Matic_YRB-12-4_(1947).jpg)


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 27, 2008, 04:25:36 PM
Quote from: Shrunk on December 27, 2008, 04:11:47 AM
Certainly a thing of beauty.  However, I recall having an internet exchange with a well-known jazz guitarist who used to endorse these amps, and he said he gave them up because of their unreliability.  (Admittedly, it doesn't look like the kind of thing that was meant to be taken out on the road.)

Yeah, I'm already having a problem with these RCAs.  After about a minute after turning the pre-amp on for the first time, i get a loud pop through the speakers.  I haven't tried putting back my Sylvania "chrome domes".  I'll have to call Rogue on Monday.  So, yeah, definitely less reliable than solid state.

These RCA tubes are pretty fantastic in the "presence" region, but don't have the silkiness and midrange purity of the Sylvanias.

Quote
I've built his Cornet phono pre kit, and highly recommend it.  Unbeatable performance/dollar ratio (once you omit the "sweat equity" factor of building it yourself) and pretty much idiot-proof in construction (has to be, since this idiot managed to build it!).  Some acquaintances of mine have the Bugle and praise it highly.  Good choice!

I tried out a pre-built Cornet2 for about a month and did some tube rolling.  I never got it to where I was all that happy with the sound, particularly the soundstage,  and ended up with a Rogue Stealth (which uses opamps).  I didn't try any NOS 12ax7s, though.  The Rogue 99 pre-amp's phono stage has 4 Mullard 12ax7s and sounds great.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 27, 2008, 08:58:51 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 27, 2008, 04:11:39 PM
      There's this guy in Sturbridge, MA who works on old tube equipment, and he'll also assemble an amp kit for you. Here's one:

     (http://lh5.ggpht.com/_sl51_VYV6Jo/R4px8qys-7I/AAAAAAAAGy4/Hf9z_N6KVeQ/s720/DSCF1304v01.jpg)

      It's a Dynaco ST-70 power amp (2x35 wpc). The kit plus assembly is $845. The kit alone is $695 so the guy is not making a fortune for his work. With a couple of high sensitivity speakers you could get a huge sound out of this.

     He also works on these old radios, some of which are really beautiful.

     (http://radioattic.com/images/bartells/Bartells_Zenith_5-S-319_(1939).jpg) (http://radioattic.com/images/park/Park_Airline_62-217_(1935).jpg) (http://radioattic.com/images/park/Park_Emerson_K-121_(1936).jpg) (http://radioattic.com/images/latino/Latino_Radio-Matic_YRB-12-4_(1947).jpg)




My dad restores old radios as well.  I will have to post a photo of the one he did for me.  Neat stuff for sure.  I believe he gets all his replacement parts from here:

http://www.tubesandmore.com/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 27, 2008, 10:33:30 PM
Unfortunately, when you turn those old radios on you get Rush Limbaugh and not Fibber McGee and Molley.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 28, 2008, 06:16:29 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 27, 2008, 10:33:30 PM
Unfortunately, when you turn those old radios on you get Rush Limbaugh and not Fibber McGee and Molley.

Still great for baseball games though.... ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 31, 2008, 11:36:07 AM
Well, finally got my dad's old floor speakers up and running in my workroom.  They sound tremendous and weigh more than me after a Christmas meal.  Here is the system I am running.

Realistic STA-2100 amp/receiver
Sansui 3000 Floor Speakers
Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 Bookshelf Speakers
Pro-Ject III Turntable
Optimus 1760 CD Player-needs to be upgraded


His Pioneer Amp/Receiver 9000 seems to not be working, so stuck with the Realistic.  However, he and I are going to keep an eye out for them and see if we can piece a decent one together.

I have all four speakers ready to run.  Anything wrong with running all four at once?  The Wharfields are about 8 feet off the ground with the Sansui's obviously on the floor.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 31, 2008, 02:12:08 PM
Quote from: Bogey on December 31, 2008, 11:36:07 AM

I have all four speakers ready to run.  Anything wrong with running all four at once?  The Wharfields are about 8 feet off the ground with the Sansui's obviously on the floor.


     Is it running yet? What are you trying to do with the extra pair? If what you want is the best sound you could run the Diamonds with a sub connected to the receiver's speaker terminals. Or if you like the sound of the Sansui's just run them alone.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 31, 2008, 02:20:49 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 31, 2008, 02:12:08 PM
     Is it running yet? What are you trying to do with the extra pair? If what you want is the best sound you could run the Diamonds with a sub connected to the receiver's speaker terminals. Or if you like the sound of the Sansui's just run them alone.

I have the Sansuis on the B and the Diamonds on the A channel.  They sound the best when both are going.  However, what is a sub connection? 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 31, 2008, 03:02:15 PM
Is it possible that I am getting such good sound with all 4 because the 2 Diamonds are taking care of some of the higher range sound that the Sansui's might not be able to deliver as well?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: karlhenning on December 31, 2008, 03:14:53 PM
A sub-woofer?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 31, 2008, 04:05:17 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 31, 2008, 03:14:53 PM
A sub-woofer?

(http://static1.firedoglake.com/29/files//2008/12/babyfenway.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 31, 2008, 05:08:18 PM


   
Quote from: Bogey on December 31, 2008, 03:02:15 PM
Is it possible that I am getting such good sound with all 4 because the 2 Diamonds are taking care of some of the higher range sound that the Sansui's might not be able to deliver as well?

    Yes, they could be canceling each other weaknesses. It doesn't sound like a very transparent system, though.

Quote from: Bogey on December 31, 2008, 02:20:49 PM
However, what is a sub connection? 

    A sub connected to the speaker terminals. These old receivers don't have sub outs because subs didn't exist in home stereos back then. These days subs can be connected in different ways so you can use them with older amps. This one has

     (http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/pb12nsd/lg9.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 31, 2008, 11:18:10 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 31, 2008, 05:08:18 PM

   
    Yes, they could be canceling each other weaknesses. It doesn't sound like a very transparent system, though.

    A sub connected to the speaker terminals. These old receivers don't have sub outs because subs didn't exist in home stereos back then. These days subs can be connected in different ways so you can use them with older amps. This one has

     (http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/pb12nsd/lg9.jpg)

Explain transparency a bit if you do not mind.  Is it just being able to hear the music "how it is"?  My Brubeck album sounded better than anything I have ever played on a system.  However, some of the vinyl I put on was not that good.  Depended on the label/recording.  I guess vinyl does not differ from cds in this category....some great, others not.  However, my Diamonds were negligible when playing symphonic music.  That is, you were hard pressed to tell the difference if they were on or not.  Interesting.  As stated, for most of the jazz, all four speakers really took it to a nice level of sound.  It would seem that one could play around a bit with the tuning knobs on each recording to achieve maximum quality as well.  In any case, fun stuff to mess with. 

Also, what do these sub connectors actually do?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 01, 2009, 08:02:00 AM
Quote from: Bogey on December 31, 2008, 11:36:07 AM
Optimus 1760 CD Player-needs to be upgraded

Optimus cd players are not bad.  I used to have one.  Radioshack sold them, but they are identical to pricier Pioneer models in every way.  It's as if they simply chiseled the Pioneer name out and put Optimus in it's place! ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 01, 2009, 08:16:02 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 01, 2009, 08:02:00 AM
Optimus cd players are not bad.  I used to have one.  Radioshack sold them, but they are identical to pricier Pioneer models in every way.  It's as if they simply chiseled the Pioneer name out and put Optimus in it's place! ;D

Very good to know David, and Happy New Year.  Mine just acts up from time to time and will not read the disc I loaded and gives me a "NO DISC" message.  Working fine right now, but cannot use with confidence ......and it takes 20-30 loadings before it catches the disc properly. 

(http://www.vgevo.com/forums/images/smilies/characters/homersimpson.gif) Now I wonder if it has something to do with the cheapo cables I have hitched to the back of it.












(http://www.vgevo.com/forums/images/smilies/party/pile.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 01, 2009, 01:12:56 PM
Quote from: Bogey on December 31, 2008, 11:18:10 PM
Explain transparency a bit if you do not mind.  Is it just being able to hear the music "how it is"?  My Brubeck album sounded better than anything I have ever played on a system.  However, some of the vinyl I put on was not that good.  Depended on the label/recording.  I guess vinyl does not differ from cds in this category....some great, others not.  However, my Diamonds were negligible when playing symphonic music.  That is, you were hard pressed to tell the difference if they were on or not.  Interesting.  As stated, for most of the jazz, all four speakers really took it to a nice level of sound.  It would seem that one could play around a bit with the tuning knobs on each recording to achieve maximum quality as well.  In any case, fun stuff to mess with. 

Also, what do these sub connectors actually do?

    Transparency just means the speaker doesn't color the sound to a noticeable extent. This way your recordings will all sound like they were intended to. Some colorations may make certain recordings sound better and others worse. The ideal is a flat midrange. Depending on your room and speaker placement you might want to move the treble and bass up or down a bit to a point where all your music sounds good. Modern digital receivers have automated room correction systems that do this for you. I don't use them, and I run the system flat.

    The sub connects to modern receivers through a dedicated sub output that sends all the bass to the sub while rolling of the lowest frequencies to the main speakers.

     (http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7549/x158stdg520byr0.jpg)

     You can select the crossover frequency on the receiver (usually 80 hz is best). If you don't have a receiver like this you can use the speaker terminals or the monitor out. I would use the speaker terminals. If you have a separate preamp you can split the signal between the sub and the power amp. With some subs you have both speaker ins and outs so you connect the main speakers (R+L) to the sub instead of the amp and the sub does the crossover. In the picture below the sub has these connections.

     (http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/pb12nsd/lg9.jpg)

QuoteNow I wonder if it has something to do with the cheapo cables I have hitched to the back of it.

      >:D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 01, 2009, 01:27:32 PM
Is this recommended even if the larger floor speakers have a sub component?

Here is a shot from the web of the speakers, but not mine:

(http://www.sansui.us/images/Speakers/SP_4Digits/SP3000_1.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 01, 2009, 02:02:13 PM


     No, those speakers don't need a subwoofer. :D

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 01, 2009, 03:24:32 PM
Quote from: drogulus on January 01, 2009, 02:02:13 PM

     No, those speakers don't need a subwoofer. :D

     

Yes, my Sansui's have plenty of ooomph.  So, now that I do not need a sub, let me pick your (and others') brains on other avenues to continue improving sound.
 
However, I believe one of my biggest challenges is the room itself.  Pretty much concrete.  14 ft by 14 ft.  Only about 4ft. spread between the floor speakers and 6ft. between the Diamonds.  My dad suggested some throw rugs along with a screen at the opposite side of the room made of fabric to cut down on the sound bouncing around.  Any other suggestions?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 01, 2009, 04:52:14 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 01, 2009, 03:24:32 PM
Yes, my Sansui's have plenty of ooomph.  So, now that I do not need a sub, let me pick your (and others') brains on other avenues to continue improving sound.
 
However, I believe one of my biggest challenges is the room itself.  Pretty much concrete.  14 ft by 14 ft.  Only about 4ft. spread between the floor speakers and 6ft. between the Diamonds.  My dad suggested some throw rugs along with a screen at the opposite side of the room made of fabric to cut down on the sound bouncing around.  Any other suggestions?

     Cutting down on reflections is good. Also try moving the big speakers around until the balance sounds right to you. They might sound a bit boomy if they are too close to the back wall. Once you have the balance zeroed in you won't need the other pair of speakers. If you do need them there might be something wrong with one or more of the drivers in the Sansui's. I would want to run both sets separately to see exactly what each pair is doing.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 01, 2009, 05:01:46 PM
Quote from: drogulus on January 01, 2009, 04:52:14 PM
     Cutting down on reflections is good. Also try moving the big speakers around until the balance sounds right to you. They might sound a bit boomy if they are too close to the back wall. Once you have the balance zeroed in you won't need the other pair of speakers. If you do need them there might be something wrong with one or more of the drivers in the Sansui's. I would want to run both sets separately to see exactly what each pair is doing.

Already had them away from the wall.  Will do some testing with some cds per your suggestion.  That might be an easier medium to calibrate with.  There are some adjustments on the back of the speakers

last picture in top row...I have mine on "natural".  Any thoughts here?

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5847401

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 01, 2009, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 01, 2009, 03:24:32 PM
Yes, my Sansui's have plenty of ooomph.  So, now that I do not need a sub, let me pick your (and others') brains on other avenues to continue improving sound.
 
However, I believe one of my biggest challenges is the room itself.  Pretty much concrete.  14 ft by 14 ft.  Only about 4ft. spread between the floor speakers and 6ft. between the Diamonds.  My dad suggested some throw rugs along with a screen at the opposite side of the room made of fabric to cut down on the sound bouncing around.  Any other suggestions?

How high  is the ceiling?  You're going to have some low frequency room modes in  a square room like that.  See these room mode calculators:

http://www.mcsquared.com/metricmodes.htm
http://www.marktaw.com/recording/Acoustics/RoomModeStandingWaveCalcu.html

Interesting discussion here:

http://www.realtraps.com/art_tuning.htm

though those guys are selling a product, so take it with a grain of salt.


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 01, 2009, 05:09:10 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 01, 2009, 05:01:46 PM
Already had them away from the wall.  Will do some testing with some cds per your suggestion.  That might be an easier medium to calibrate with.  There are some adjustments on the back of the speakers

last picture in top row...I have mine on "natural".  Any thoughts here?

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5847401



     That might be the flat setting, if, that is, there is one. The goal should be to find a setting that works for different kinds of music.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 01, 2009, 05:28:21 PM
Quote from: drogulus on January 01, 2009, 05:09:10 PM
     That might be the flat setting, if, that is, there is one. The goal should be to find a setting that works for different kinds of music.

Right.  I just sampled Miss You by the Stones.  Without the Diamonds, could not tell the difference.  Sounded AWESOME!  Now, with REM Fall on Me the Diamonds add a nice touch.  This is so freakin fun I cannot tell you. 

Oh, should I put my floor speakers on top of anything?  Bricks, wood, carpet....?

Daverz,
You an MIT grad?  Dang man.  I will have to read over the sites a bit more slowly and get back with you.  Thanks for the links.  I am continuing to learn. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 02, 2009, 06:17:48 AM
Quote from: Bogey on December 31, 2008, 11:18:10 PM
Explain transparency a bit if you do not mind.

A transparent audio chain has an impulse response that is very impulse-like. Impulse response is simply the response to impulse (very short strong pulse). Below is an example of an actual impulse responce of a loudspeaker:

(http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/9426/impulseresponseqx1.th.png) (http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=impulseresponseqx1.png) Click the thumbnail for bigger picture

If amplifier sends a very short (positive) strong pulse to this loudspeaker, this is what comes out (2.5 m from the loudspeaker on tweeter axis). We see that not only is there a large pulse up (positive) but also almost as strong negative dip. the response oscillates for a while before dying out. Why does a sharp positive pulse turn into this kind of mess? It's because the frequence responses of loudspeakers aren't totally flat. Also, the lowest frequencies are strongly attenuated. Frequencies are delayed differently; lower frequencies take more time "to come out." These are some of the reasons why transparency isn't 100 %. It's up to our ears if this is transparent enough.

This impulse response was measured (by me and my friend using MLSSA) in an anechoic chamber. A normal listening room acoustics will dramatically lower the degree of transparency.

Impulse response describes completely the behavior of a linear system.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 02, 2009, 10:59:37 AM
Another way of looking it, Bill, is that the frequency spectrum of an impulse signal is very wide. If your system's frequency response is perfect you will recover every one of those frequency contents at the output. But nothing is ideal. These different frequencies will have different propagation delays (travel at different velocies if you will) down a cable AND the speakers will have different gains and phase shifts as a function of frequency.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 02, 2009, 12:52:32 PM
You could of course have a "perfect" frequency response and still have a far from perfect impulse response. A "perfect" impulse response yields a a "perfect" frequency response.

If I had room for it I'd have 5 channels for the same reasons as 71dB, but we have chosen to have music in the main living room and TV elsewhere.

My stereo is somewhat uncommon.
The main speakers use two SEAS Excel 5" Al-Mg midbass drivers with neodynium magnets and one Mundorf AMT (Heil principle) tweeter in MTM configuration. They are driven by an amplifier based on the B&O ICEpower125ASX class D 2x60W into 8 ohm module. A 2nd order passive filter roll them off from ~120Hz.
The subwoofers each use two Beyma 12" drivers in ELF tuning, i.e. they operate below the cabinet tuning frequency. Amps are again ICEpower, this time one 500ASP per side. Bass crossover and EQ is handled by the Behringer DCX2496 (second mention in this thread). This whole condondrum is called tangenAVdesign System.
The control center is the ingenious Logitech Slimdevices Transporter. Most of my music is FLAC now, the ripped CDs are stored away. The Transporter of course plays internet radio too.
I also have a collection of LPs that I play on an old SOTA Sapphire with a Well Tempered Classic tone arm. RIAA is a SAT Phonofix, and the signal is then digitized by a RME ADI-2 and fed to the Transporter by optical SPDIF.
An old CD-player is also connected to the Transporter. Visitors sometimes bring their own music.

(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23462.0;attach=33509;image)
The funny thing on the ceiling is an acoustic absorber. I'm a nearfielder, as you may see. The listening chair is not always placed in the listening position.


I am planning other Slimdevices-boxes in other parts of the house. Bedroom, kids rooms etc. All users accessing the same server but picking their music or web streams of choice. For the main system I'm planning a convolver to get the "perfect" impulse response. The transporter supports an effect loop. Smart box, did I mention that?

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 02, 2009, 06:34:05 PM
Quote from: Valentino on January 02, 2009, 12:52:32 PM
The main speakers use two SEAS Excel 5" Al-Mg midbass drivers with neodynium magnets and one Mundorf AMT (Heil principle) tweeter in MTM configuration. They are driven by an amplifier based on the B&O ICEpower125ASX class D 2x60W into 8 ohm module. A 2nd order passive filter roll them off from ~120Hz.
The subwoofers each use two Beyma 12" drivers in ELF tuning, i.e. they operate below the cabinet tuning frequency. Amps are again ICEpower, this time one 500ASP per side. Bass crossover and EQ is handled by the Behringer DCX2496 (second mention in this thread). This whole condondrum is called tangenAVdesign System.

Is this something you put together yourself from pre-existing plans?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 02, 2009, 06:42:47 PM
Quote from: Valentino on January 02, 2009, 12:52:32 PM
The control center is the ingenious Logitech Slimdevices Transporter. Most of my music is FLAC now, the ripped CDs are stored away. The Transporter of course plays internet radio too.
I also have a collection of LPs that I play on an old SOTA Sapphire with a Well Tempered Classic tone arm. RIAA is a SAT Phonofix, and the signal is then digitized by a RME ADI-2 and fed to the Transporter by optical SPDIF.

How does this effect the analogue (which is obviously no longer analogue) sound when playing lps?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 02, 2009, 06:51:15 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 02, 2009, 06:42:47 PM
How does this effect the analogue (which is obviously no longer analogue) sound when playing lps?

In my current NHT Xd system, everything goes through additional analog->digital and digital signal processing steps.  The result to my ears seems completely transparent, though there isn't a way to listen without the processing.   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 02, 2009, 06:52:25 PM
Quote from: Daverz on January 02, 2009, 06:51:15 PM
In my current NHT Xd system, everything goes through additional analog->digital and digital signal processing steps.  The result to my ears seems completely transparent, though there isn't a way to listen without the processing.   

So, no change from what you can detect.  That is cool!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 02, 2009, 06:54:35 PM
Sorry to throw this one out again, but should I raise my floor speakers up off the floor a bit?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 02, 2009, 11:26:59 PM
Quote from: Daverz on January 02, 2009, 06:34:05 PM
Is this something you put together yourself from pre-existing plans?
It's a commercially available system, but in very small series and only in Norway.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 03, 2009, 12:06:48 AM
Quote from: Bogey on January 02, 2009, 06:42:47 PM
How does this effect the analogue (which is obviously no longer analogue) sound when playing lps?
It may not be completely transparent, Bogey, but a better performing AD-converter costs more than I'm willing to pay. And in an A/B test I might not notice a difference, so...
Anyway: It sounds like LPs. I sample at 24 bit 96kHz btw.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Que on January 03, 2009, 02:40:59 AM
Quote from: Bogey on January 02, 2009, 06:54:35 PM
Sorry to throw this one out again, but should I raise my floor speakers up off the floor a bit?

If you'd want to avoid extra resonance by a wooden floor, yes.
Put it on something non-resonant like special spikes, but ordinary brick works as well. :)

Q
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 03, 2009, 05:19:59 AM
Quote from: Bogey on January 02, 2009, 06:54:35 PM
Sorry to throw this one out again, but should I raise my floor speakers up off the floor a bit?

What speakers do you have? Floor speakers are (or at least should be) designed so that you don't need to raise them. Usually tweeter is supposed to be on the same level as your ears when you sit down to listen.

What do you want to gain by raising the speakers? Avoid reflection? What is wrong with the sound?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 03, 2009, 02:07:34 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 02, 2009, 06:54:35 PM
Sorry to throw this one out again, but should I raise my floor speakers up off the floor a bit?

     Try it and see. These aren't actually tower speakers and they might open up a bit raised off the floor. Do they sound bass heavy to you? I look at that 15" woofer and wonder. It's possible though that they are balanced for floor placement and mounting them off the floor will make things worse.

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 03, 2009, 05:10:38 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 03, 2009, 05:19:59 AM
What speakers do you have? Floor speakers are (or at least should be) designed so that you don't need to raise them. Usually tweeter is supposed to be on the same level as your ears when you sit down to listen.

What do you want to gain by raising the speakers? Avoid reflection? What is wrong with the sound?

Quote from: drogulus on January 03, 2009, 02:07:34 PM
     Try it and see. These aren't actually tower speakers and they might open up a bit raised off the floor. Do they sound bass heavy to you? I look at that 15" woofer and wonder. It's possible though that they are balanced for floor placement and mounting them off the floor will make things worse.

     

Good points.  Thanks!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on February 04, 2009, 02:16:59 AM
The latest in audiophile accessories, from a new company obviously on the cutting edge of technology.  Every one a bargain.

http://www.nathanmarciniak.com/elemental/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on February 04, 2009, 03:42:53 AM
Guy must have a lot of time on his hands.

I can't believe someone would go to the truble of creating a website for a bunch of lame jokes.

Also, 71dB would take offense these aids are not for the multi channel world.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on February 04, 2009, 05:42:09 AM
Nah, Poju already has a Müsicøné set up for every channel in his multi-channel system.  When tuned properly they're indispensable for enhancing vibrational fields.  Plus, if you cover one with tin foil and wear it like a hat, it will make you smart enough to understand how Elgar's multi-dimensional vibrational fields make his music superior to anyone else's--especially that overrated hack, Beethoven.  Note, however, that for the tin foil hat trick to work, you must first put it on and stand in an open field during a thunderstorm until the finger of God Ex Nihilo anoints you as the chosen one.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 05:37:49 PM
My last post was unsuccessful ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 05:38:52 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 05:37:49 PM
My last post was unsuccessful ...

Bill,    Here are my open-reel decks.  The smallest one (i.e. the one with the small reels) was the one that originally recorded the Christopher Hogwood's All Bach Program at the Library of Congress off the air back in the mid 80's.  I also digitized that tape via Audacity and played it yesterday on my desktop.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2009, 05:52:32 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 05:38:52 PM
Bill,    Here are my open-reel decks.  The smallest one (i.e. the one with the small reels) was the one that originally recorded the Christopher Hogwood's All Bach Program at the Library of Congress off the air back in the mid 80's.  I also digitized that tape via Audacity and played it yesterday on my desktop.



Thanks Stuart!  Very cool.  I just love stereo equipment that weighs as much as a new 'fridge. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 06:14:37 PM
Quote from: Bogey on February 16, 2009, 05:52:32 PM
Thanks Stuart!  Very cool.  I just love stereo equipment that weighs as much as a new 'fridge. 

Bill,  I do not like most feather-weight equipments which are so commonplace today.  I just cannot see how a sub-10 lbs CD/DVD player, almost always Chinese-made, can provide good isolation when the drive is spinning so fast.  But people get what they paid for, what can I say?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 16, 2009, 11:37:24 PM
An uncle of mine had a Tandberg TD20A like that. A battleship. Tape costs at 7 1/2 ips was the same as the cost of an original LP...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on February 17, 2009, 04:21:04 AM
Quote from: Valentino on February 16, 2009, 11:37:24 PM
An uncle of mine had a Tandberg TD20A like that. A battleship. Tape costs at 7 1/2 ips was the same as the cost of an original LP...

LOL....classic description!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 17, 2009, 06:39:37 AM
(http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=10513&c=ACCT106601&h=2e831d5b2c0e8a0d897b)

Yet another phono cartridge to add to the collection, this one a trade-in on a broken Dynavector 10x5.  The Dynavector 20x is a popular one.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on February 17, 2009, 07:25:28 AM
Quote from: Daverz on February 17, 2009, 06:39:37 AM
(http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=10513&c=ACCT106601&h=2e831d5b2c0e8a0d897b)

Yet another phono cartridge to add to the collection, this one a trade-in on a broken Dynavector 10x5.  The Dynavector 20x is a popular one.
How does the sound compare to the 10x5, and can you describe your system to provide a context for your impressions, please?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: nut-job on February 17, 2009, 07:36:47 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 06:14:37 PM
Bill,  I do not like most feather-weight equipments which are so commonplace today.  I just cannot see how a sub-10 lbs CD/DVD player, almost always Chinese-made, can provide good isolation when the drive is spinning so fast.  But people get what they paid for, what can I say?

There is no need for mechanical isolation, if that is what you mean.  A $30 CD drive that weighs a few ounces, sitting in your computer can read data off a compact disc 32 times faster than your CD player does with absolutely no errors.  A good audio CD player is expensive because it has a decent power supply and because the digital-to-analog converter and subsequent analog components utilize high quality components.  The power supply tends to add some weight, but the good circuitry doesn't have to.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 17, 2009, 07:44:05 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 17, 2009, 07:25:28 AM
How does the sound compare to the 10x5, and can you describe your system to provide a context for your impressions, please?

I just ordered it.  I'll report as soon as I get it.  It does have a micro-ridge stylus and is the low output version, while the 10x5 is elliptical and only comes in a hight output version.  My system is described here:

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/8291.html

I really like the AT33PTG cartridge I'm using now, and it's an incredible bargain.  But I'd like to see if I can get a little more warmth and midrange presence (and I had that broken 10x5 sitting in the closet, so...).  Other cartridges I suppose I could have tried in that price range or lower are the Denon 103 (I think I'd have to add some mass to the headshell for that one, and you better have lots of clean gain for its flea output), or one of the Ortofon 2M color series of moving magnet cartridges (I haven't had much luck with moving magnets, though).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on February 17, 2009, 08:24:45 AM
 8)  Although I liked some of the characteristics of the modest Grado Platinum MM I was using, I got tired of the low level hum in my system.  I found a deal on the improved 10x5 that I couldn't pass up and have been content--but have been curious about what improvement the 20x might offer.  I'm not about to pursue the nth degree of audio nirvana by chasing tinier and tinier incremental improvements at greater and greater expense.  I'm more of a bang-for-the-buck sort of guy--of course, the marginal tipping point differs from person to person...and with my disposable income as well!

As for the Denon--I considered the Zu upgrade for only $100 or so more, but passed mainly because I didn't want to spring for a transformer, too!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 17, 2009, 09:05:23 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 17, 2009, 08:24:45 AM
8)  Although I liked some of the characteristics of the modest Grado Platinum MM I was using, I got tired of the low level hum in my system. 

Hum from the turntable motor? 

Quote
I found a deal on the improved 10x5 that I couldn't pass up and have been content--but have been curious about what improvement the 20x might offer.  I'm not about to pursue the nth degree of audio nirvana by chasing tinier and tinier incremental improvements at greater and greater expense.  I'm more of a bang-for-the-buck sort of guy--of course, the marginal tipping point differs from person to person...and with my disposable income as well!

As for the Denon--I considered the Zu upgrade for only $100 or so more, but passed mainly because I didn't want to spring for a transformer, too!

Note that the output of the 20x low output version is, at .3mV, not much more than the .25mV output of the Denon, so unless you have the gain for it, you'd probably want to go for the high output version, which will have a different sound than the low output version.  There's also a medium output (1mV) version of the DV20x made specially for VPI. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 20, 2009, 07:32:58 PM
Quote from: Valentino on February 16, 2009, 11:37:24 PM
An uncle of mine had a Tandberg TD20A like that. A battleship. Tape costs at 7 1/2 ips was the same as the cost of an original LP...

I showed photo of my TD20A in a post from a few days ago ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 20, 2009, 11:25:31 PM
That was the photo I was referring to, Coopmv.
It's great that enthusiasts like yourself keep and use these magnificent machines. These days there are more effective ways of storing music, but that doesn't matter.
My uncle sold his TD20A. Too many maintenance hours for him. He transferred all his radio recordings to hard disk first.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 04:38:46 AM
Quote from: Valentino on February 20, 2009, 11:25:31 PM
That was the photo I was referring to, Coopmv.
It's great that enthusiasts like yourself keep and use these magnificent machines. These days there are more effective ways of storing music, but that doesn't matter.
My uncle sold his TD20A. Too many maintenance hours for him. He transferred all his radio recordings to hard disk first.

Open-reel decks are generally quite durable.  The problems these days are the space (10.5" reels are large) and it is a very expensive media due to limited production if you can even find them.  However, to get equivalent sound, you will need gigabytpes on your hard-drive.  I digitized a live concert of Christopher Hogwood and the AAM from an open-reel tape a few months ago, it took up about 1.4 GB of my hard-drive.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on February 21, 2009, 06:10:13 AM
Quote from: Daverz on February 17, 2009, 09:05:23 AM
Hum from the turntable motor? 
I imagine so.  Grados are unshielded and the issue is common with certain turntables.  Mine is a modest VPI HW19 Jr.  The hum is not noticeable except during nearly silent passages when the volume is cranked up (though not necessarily to 11 ;) ) and the cartridge is tracking near the spindle.  I really didn't need to change, since otherwise I was reasonably satisfied with the sound of the cartridge: more musical than clinical and with a rich, effortless midrange, though perhaps a bit soft on top--but since my hearing stops at 16KHz, that's not much of an issue for me.  ;D 

Some of the would-be rocket scientists around here whose apprehension of reality is so severely handicapped by intellectualism that they deny the existence of phenomena unexplained by their pet theories will probably jump in to claim that all phono cartridges sound alike since they're just electromagnetic transducers with no meaningful differences other than the output voltage of their electrical signals blah blah blah....  I really like the one who used to claim that Beethoven is an overrated mediocrity but Elgar is supreme due to the complexity of his music's vibrational fields, and who claimed to know everything about audio since he's an engineer, but also claimed that he can't hear significant differences among different recordings of the same piece since they're all playing the same music. 

When guys like that trot out the "Expert badge" I'm usually reminded of Duck's Breath Mystery Theatre's "Dr. Science" (http://www.drscience.com/rafiles/InternalHairFactory.mp3).  Good old Dr. Science:  He knows more than we do.  He has a master's degree...in Science!.  If only those poor souls weren't so deluded by arrogance that they believe their limited understanding and experience are definitive and constitute the sum of all possible knowledge.  It makes it so hard for them to learn anything.  Sigh.  At least we can learn from them, however, since their handicap--though extreme--is a common human failing that we are all subject to.  When they flaunt it we're reminded of the virtue of humility, of practicing awareness that we know very little and that the moment we think we know it all our minds spring shut, preventing us from learning anything and condemning us to everlasting ignorance.  Who was it said that an educated person is one who knows how little he knows?



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 06:34:22 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 21, 2009, 06:10:13 AM
I imagine so.  Grados are unshielded and the issue is common with certain turntables.  Mine is a modest VPI HW19 Jr.  The hum is not noticeable except during nearly silent passages when the volume is cranked up (though not necessarily to 11 ;) ) and the cartridge is tracking near the spindle.  I really didn't need to change, since otherwise I was reasonably satisfied with the sound of the cartridge: more musical than clinical and with a rich, effortless midrange, though perhaps a bit soft on top--but since my hearing stops at 16KHz, that's not much of an issue for me.  ;D 




I have that slight hum from my Grado Prestige Gold that is installed on my DUAL CS-750 - no fancy TT here since I really do not listen to LP's much.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 21, 2009, 11:05:33 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 21, 2009, 06:10:13 AM
Some of the would-be rocket scientists around here whose apprehension of reality is so severely handicapped by intellectualism that they deny the existence of phenomena unexplained by their pet theories

But I understand what these guys are reacting to.  Audiophilia has been overrun with Mpingo disk style insanity.  It's now accepted conventional wisdom in this community that a serious system must include expensive boutique interconnects and cables, and that these all have very different sonic characteristics (always described with audiophile poetics that would make a Vogon green with envy).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on February 21, 2009, 01:31:00 PM
Quote from: Daverz on February 21, 2009, 11:05:33 AM
But I understand what these guys are reacting to.  Audiophilia has been overrun with Mpingo disk style insanity.  It's now accepted conventional wisdom in this community that a serious system must include expensive boutique interconnects and cables, and that these all have very different sonic characteristics (always described with audiophile poetics that would make a Vogon green with envy).
You bet.  But just because some hucksters sell $5000 carburetors with promises of 50mpg doesn't mean that there aren't real differences among carburetors.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 21, 2009, 02:14:19 PM
Who claimed there are no audible differences between cartridges?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on February 21, 2009, 03:45:24 PM
Quote from: Valentino on February 21, 2009, 02:14:19 PM
Who claimed there are no audible differences between cartridges?
Nobody, I would hope.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 03:47:16 PM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 21, 2009, 03:45:24 PM
Nobody, I would hope.

I used to work with someone who claimed he was tone-deaf ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Häuschen on February 21, 2009, 06:21:10 PM
My main system:

Marantz 2265B
Marantz Model 1070
Marantz 5030B
Wharfedale W70C
Rega P3 w/ Grado Platinum

Too many secondary system components to list and making my apartment tighter than Dr. Caligari's Cabinet.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 10, 2009, 06:47:55 PM
Hitting this on the 29th.  Anyone looking for something out of the way?

http://vintagevoltageexpo.eventbrite.com/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on March 12, 2009, 08:12:42 AM
Quote from: Bogey on March 10, 2009, 06:47:55 PM
Hitting this on the 29th.  Anyone looking for something out of the way?

http://vintagevoltageexpo.eventbrite.com/

I'd be so there if I lived in the area!  Hope you can take pictures and post them for us.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on March 12, 2009, 12:31:59 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 03:47:16 PM
I used to work with someone who claimed he was tone-deaf ...
Well I'm cable-deaf.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 12, 2009, 05:22:15 PM
Quote from: Shrunk on March 12, 2009, 08:12:42 AM
I'd be so there if I lived in the area!  Hope you can take pictures and post them for us.

Great idea!  I will try to remember a camera.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 12, 2009, 10:26:28 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41485Pm1trL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

iPod Classic 120G.  No, I couldn't wait for the latest and greatest iWhatever, I got this at Costco in preparation for a work trip to cold and wet Scotland.  What I really need for the flight over is heavy sedation.  With my Etymotics, it does sound a bit mettalic, so I hope it doesn't just induce a headache.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 13, 2009, 03:30:15 AM
Quote from: Daverz on March 12, 2009, 10:26:28 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41485Pm1trL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

No, I couldn't wait for the latest and greatest iWhatever, I got this at Costco in preparation for a work trip to cold and wet Scotland. 

Line of the day.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Wanderer on March 13, 2009, 06:17:02 AM
If you waited less, you could've gotten the (previous generation) 160 GB model. Holds a ton of lossless stuff and then some more. Built like a tank, too. Never regretted it for a minute.  8)

(The 120 GB newer model is more elegant/less bulky and can still hold music to last one for weeks. Good choice!:-)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on March 13, 2009, 05:18:21 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on March 13, 2009, 06:17:02 AM
If you waited less, you could've gotten the (previous generation) 160 GB model. Holds a ton of lossless stuff and then some more. Built like a tank, too. Never regretted it for a minute.  8)

(The 120 GB newer model is more elegant/less bulky and can still hold music to last one for weeks. Good choice!:-)

Is the 160 GB model still available?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 13, 2009, 05:38:30 PM
Quote from: Bogey on March 13, 2009, 03:30:15 AM
Line of the day.

The last time I went to Scotland (in October), I came back with a cough that lasted a month.   The damn Scots have done nothing since to improve their weather.

http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/03140.html
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on March 13, 2009, 05:41:50 PM
Quote from: Daverz on March 13, 2009, 05:38:30 PM
The last time I went to Scotland (in October), I came back with a cough that lasted a month.   The damn Scots have done nothing since to improve their weather.

http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/03140.html

So it is Seattle kind of weather ... mostly cloudy and rainy.   ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 13, 2009, 06:08:29 PM
Quote from: Daverz on March 13, 2009, 05:38:30 PM
The last time I went to Scotland (in October), I came back with a cough that lasted a month.   The damn Scots have done nothing since to improve their weather.

http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/03140.html

I was actually referring to your latest and greatest iWhatever.  Cold and rainy sounds wonderful to me.  Rainy spring and fall days are my favorites.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Wanderer on March 14, 2009, 12:45:14 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 13, 2009, 05:18:21 PM
Is the 160 GB model still available?

I don't think so, unless used (which I don't recommend). I remember when the new models came out (early last fall?) Apple stores and assorted dealers were pushing their previous generation stock at quite low(er) prices, but I doubt whether there's anything left now to be purchased from a legitimate source.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on March 14, 2009, 10:40:43 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on March 14, 2009, 12:45:14 AM
I don't think so, unless used (which I don't recommend). I remember when the new models came out (early last fall?) Apple stores and assorted dealers were pushing their previous generation stock at quite low(er) prices, but I doubt whether there's anything left now to be purchased from a legitimate source.

Does the 120 GB iPod Classic now have an aluminium casing instead of a plastic casing?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on March 19, 2009, 11:11:40 AM
If there are any aficionados of tube audio gear reading this, here is one guy definitely not to buy from:

http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTIzNzQ3Njc2N2ZQWU1ISXNZVkZfMV8xX2wuZ2lm
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on March 19, 2009, 11:54:17 AM
A friend of mine changed the coupling capacitors between DACs and opamps in his Slimdevices Transporter. We synced his and mine (which is stock) and used a switchbox to select between them. We heard no difference. Common sense applied that figures.
Audiophile sense applied it is impossible that they sounded the same, of course.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: nut-job on March 19, 2009, 11:58:27 AM
Quote from: Shrunk on March 19, 2009, 11:11:40 AM
If there are any aficionados of tube audio gear reading this, here is one guy definitely not to buy from:

http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTIzNzQ3Njc2N2ZQWU1ISXNZVkZfMV8xX2wuZ2lm

I guess the meaning of "vacuum" in "vacuum tube" escaped him.   :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on April 28, 2009, 11:14:05 AM
Pulled the trigger on this baby today:

(http://www.balanced.com/products/line/Vk-3iX/images/image004.jpg)

The BAT VK-3iX preamp with remote and phono section.  What started the audiophile upgraditis again was hearing a friend's Dynaudio Special 25 speakers hooked up to his big Tri-Vista integrated amp.  It sounded so much warmer than my system, which started sounded a little cold and hard in comparison.  Since I didn't relish having to get rid of my speakers, I tried this preamp first.  It totally transformed the system.  The speaker system, the NHT Xd, now sounds great, obviously an excellent match with the BAT.  I'm trading in my Rogue Magnum 99 for the 3iX.  The downside is that the BAT does not have a mono button.  But it does have a much nicer digital volume control, and the optional solid state phono board sounds great.  And, of course, the BAT is a completely balanced design.  Since my CD player and amp are both balanced, that makes the whole chain balanced now.  I bought some nice pro audio XLR connectors for $30 from a place called Monoprice, and I'll be returning the $1500 foofoo XLR cable the shop lent me.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on April 28, 2009, 04:46:58 PM
Quote from: Daverz on April 28, 2009, 11:14:05 AM
Pulled the trigger on this baby today:

(http://www.balanced.com/products/line/Vk-3iX/images/image004.jpg)

The BAT VK-3iX preamp with remote and phono section.  What started the audiophile upgraditis again was hearing a friend's Dynaudio Special 25 speakers hooked up to his big Tri-Vista integrated amp.  It sounded so much warmer than my system, which started sounded a little cold and hard in comparison.  Since I didn't relish having to get rid of my speakers, I tried this preamp first.  It totally transformed the system.  The speaker system, the NHT Xd, now sounds great, obviously an excellent match with the BAT.  I'm trading in my Rogue Magnum 99 for the 3iX.  The downside is that the BAT does not have a mono button.  But it does have a much nicer digital volume control, and the optional solid state phono board sounds great.  And, of course, the BAT is a completely balanced design.  Since my CD player and amp are both balanced, that makes the whole chain balanced now.  I bought some nice pro audio XLR connectors for $30 from a place called Monoprice, and I'll be returning the $1500 foofoo XLR cable the shop lent me.

I like the tube preamp and SS amp combo.  I run my CJ MF2500A with the Sonic Frontier Line 1.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: techniquest on April 28, 2009, 11:26:50 PM
Meanwhile, back in the budget department, I'm still listening to my music on exactly the same equipment I described on page 3 and I'm still happy with it.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on April 29, 2009, 12:43:21 AM
Quote from: Daverz on April 28, 2009, 11:14:05 AM
I bought some nice pro audio XLR connectors for $30 from a place called Monoprice, and I'll be returning the $1500 foofoo XLR cable the shop lent me.
You choose wisely

;D

And me, I like the SS preamp (actually only a DAC) and class D power amp combo.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 03, 2009, 06:59:10 PM
Needed to replace my Realistic 2100 D Receiver in my workroom and wanted to go a bit on the vintage side without breaking the bank, so grabbed this tonight:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)
   
MARANTZ 2230

Here was the discription:

30 watts per channel, continuous into 8 ohms. (As powerful as many newer units rated 60 watts or more.)

A great unit for any room!! This unit plays very well!! 

This unit has that classic Marantz sound.

Faceplate  very good, (9/10), A couple of marks here and there.   All corners good.

Dial glass very good, some very light small scratches from cleaning. Faceplate, dial glass and tuning scale cleaned inside and out.

All original knobs!!   Original feet!!

All controls and switches cleaned with De-Ox-It , operate quietly and smoothly.

All original audio output transistors!!!

All panel lights work, meter works, dial pointer light works, stereo indicator replaced. All function indicators work.

Power Supply B+ voltage adjusted to factory specifications.

Audio Amplifier Forward Bias set to factory specifications.

Panel and meter lamps replaced!

All inputs work--Phono, Tape 1 In/Out, Aux.

Connections for two sets of speakers.

FM reception is excellent, AM reception is very good.

Cabinet is in very good shape, better than most units this age.  Only a couple of slight marks, hardly noticiable.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: RussellG on May 03, 2009, 07:14:19 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 03, 2009, 06:59:10 PM
Needed to replace my Realistic 2100 D Receiver in my workroom and wanted to go a bit on the vintage side without breaking the bank, so grabbed this tonight:

Nice one Bill.  Have you picked it up yet?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 03, 2009, 07:35:23 PM
Quote from: RussellG on May 03, 2009, 07:14:19 PM
Nice one Bill.  Have you picked it up yet?

No, Russ.  It is being shipped, so fingers are beginning to cross.  However, this seller had over 3000 feedbacks and was at 100% positive.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: RussellG on May 03, 2009, 07:49:11 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 03, 2009, 07:35:23 PM
No, Russ.  It is being shipped, so fingers are beginning to cross.  However, this seller had over 3000 feedbacks and was at 100% positive.

Cool, let us know if it solves your sound problems.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 03, 2009, 10:04:01 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 03, 2009, 06:59:10 PM
Needed to replace my Realistic 2100 D Receiver in my workroom and wanted to go a bit on the vintage side without breaking the bank, so grabbed this tonight:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)


That's a very nice looking piece of kit, Bill. Very nostalgic and graceful.

I love that AM/FM signal indicator on the left - reminds me of my first stereo as a kid (w/ 8-track!).

Coolsville. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 03, 2009, 11:24:32 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 03, 2009, 06:59:10 PM
(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 04, 2009, 06:46:38 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 03, 2009, 06:59:10 PM
Needed to replace my Realistic 2100 D Receiver in my workroom and wanted to go a bit on the vintage side without breaking the bank, so grabbed this tonight:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)
   
MARANTZ 2230

Here was the discription:

30 watts per channel, continuous into 8 ohms. (As powerful as many newer units rated 60 watts or more.)

A great unit for any room!! This unit plays very well!! 

This unit has that classic Marantz sound.

Faceplate  very good, (9/10), A couple of marks here and there.   All corners good.

Dial glass very good, some very light small scratches from cleaning. Faceplate, dial glass and tuning scale cleaned inside and out.

All original knobs!!   Original feet!!

All controls and switches cleaned with De-Ox-It , operate quietly and smoothly.

All original audio output transistors!!!

All panel lights work, meter works, dial pointer light works, stereo indicator replaced. All function indicators work.

Power Supply B+ voltage adjusted to factory specifications.

Audio Amplifier Forward Bias set to factory specifications.

Panel and meter lamps replaced!

All inputs work--Phono, Tape 1 In/Out, Aux.

Connections for two sets of speakers.

FM reception is excellent, AM reception is very good.

Cabinet is in very good shape, better than most units this age.  Only a couple of slight marks, hardly noticiable.
Bill--
I bought a 2270 back in the '70s.  It served me well for many years until I moved up to separates.  My aunt and uncle bought a 2230 at about the same time.  It's still chugging along, good as the day it was born.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on May 04, 2009, 07:16:19 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 03, 2009, 06:59:10 PM
Needed to replace my Realistic 2100 D Receiver in my workroom and wanted to go a bit on the vintage side without breaking the bank, so grabbed this tonight:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)
   
MARANTZ 2230


Boy, that's a sentimental journey: I used to have that one from 1973 through the eighties. In the nineties I adopted power / end amps.

In twenty years of service only one problem developed. One of the stereo channels sometimes quit, and it needed a whack on the top to restore sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 05, 2009, 12:08:37 PM


     (http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)

     There's a modern stereo receiver that reminds me of this:

     (http://www.outlawaudio.com/images/RR2150front.jpg)

     Outlaw Audio RR2150 Stereo Receiver

     100 wpc with USB input and DAC, sub out and analog bass management.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 05, 2009, 12:47:54 PM
Quote from: drogulus on May 05, 2009, 12:08:37 PMThere's a modern stereo receiver that reminds me of this:
How so?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 05, 2009, 01:11:37 PM


     It reminds me of the virtues of the classic stereo receiver with the modern features that might prevent you from using one. And the design is retro and modern at the same time. If you don't want a bunch of extra channels or video or satellite radio this is just what you need. It even has a phono input.

     Outlaw appears to be a design shop which farms out manufacture in the manner that was established by NAD. The products have a very pronounced NAD-ish flavor to them.

     Look here:

     (http://www.outlawaudio.com/images/2150rear500.jpg)   (http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1694/clipboard01t.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 04:31:10 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 03, 2009, 06:59:10 PM
Needed to replace my Realistic 2100 D Receiver in my workroom and wanted to go a bit on the vintage side without breaking the bank, so grabbed this tonight:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)
   
MARANTZ 2230

Here was the discription:

30 watts per channel, continuous into 8 ohms. (As powerful as many newer units rated 60 watts or more.)

A great unit for any room!! This unit plays very well!! 

This unit has that classic Marantz sound.

Faceplate  very good, (9/10), A couple of marks here and there.   All corners good.

Dial glass very good, some very light small scratches from cleaning. Faceplate, dial glass and tuning scale cleaned inside and out.

All original knobs!!   Original feet!!

All controls and switches cleaned with De-Ox-It , operate quietly and smoothly.

All original audio output transistors!!!

All panel lights work, meter works, dial pointer light works, stereo indicator replaced. All function indicators work.

Power Supply B+ voltage adjusted to factory specifications.

Audio Amplifier Forward Bias set to factory specifications.

Panel and meter lamps replaced!

All inputs work--Phono, Tape 1 In/Out, Aux.

Connections for two sets of speakers.

FM reception is excellent, AM reception is very good.

Cabinet is in very good shape, better than most units this age.  Only a couple of slight marks, hardly noticiable.

Nice receiver.  I had wanted to get a Marantz receiver years ago but never did.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 05, 2009, 05:45:24 PM
I am glad to see that many are fans of this brand.  My father just picked up one for his garage stereo at a recent vintage audio show.  It only has 15 watts per channel and he was very surprised by its power....thirty should be plenty for my small workroom.  Now, what is it with these older models and their power?  Did they used to use a different measurement bck in the day?  I thought a watt was a, well, watt? 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 05:57:37 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 05, 2009, 05:45:24 PM
I am glad to see that many are fans of this brand.  My father just picked up one for his garage stereo at a recent vintage audio show.  It only has 15 watts per channel and he was very surprised by its power....thirty should be plenty for my small workroom.  Now, what is it with these older models and their power?  Did they used to use a different measurement bck in the day?  I thought a watt was a, well, watt? 

It may have something to do with the quality of the transformer.  Have you ever wondered why your 15 year old refrigerator or dish washer is still going strong while the new models with offshore-made electrical motors often conk in less than five years?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 05, 2009, 06:02:33 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 05, 2009, 05:45:24 PM
I am glad to see that many are fans of this brand.  My father just picked up one for his garage stereo at a recent vintage audio show.  It only has 15 watts per channel and he was very surprised by its power....thirty should be plenty for my small workroom.  Now, what is it with these older models and their power?  Did they used to use a different measurement bck in the day?  I thought a watt was a, well, watt? 
To keep things simple, Bill, you need to compare apples with apples.  The standard is continuous RMS watts at a given level of distortion (i.e. 1% THD) into the specified load, usually 8 ohms.  That has not changed.  Snake oil salesmen now just as then con gullible consumers with exaggerated and essentially meaningless claims citing "peak dynamic power" ratings at unspecified distortion into unspecified loads.  
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 05, 2009, 06:12:08 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 05, 2009, 06:02:33 PM
To keep things simple, Bill, you need to compare apples with apples.  The standard is continuous RMS watts at a given level of distortion (i.e. 1% THD) into the specified load, usually 8 ohms.  That has not changed.  Snake oil salesmen now just as then con gullible consumers with exaggerated and essentially meaningless claims citing "peak dynamic power" ratings at unspecified distortion into unspecified loads.  


Nice to see you back, David....and, thank you.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 05, 2009, 06:14:11 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 05:57:37 PM
 

It may have something to do with the quality of the transformer.  Have you ever wondered why your 15 year old refrigerator or dish washer is still going strong while the new models with offshore-made electrical motors often conk in less than five years?

We have a Whirlpool washer......32 years old and never repaired.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 06:22:51 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 05, 2009, 06:14:11 PM
We have a Whirlpool washer......32 years old and never repaired.

Many of the vintage audio gears were very well-made. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 05, 2009, 06:35:41 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 05:57:37 PM
 

It may have something to do with the quality of the transformer.  Have you ever wondered why your 15 year old refrigerator or dish washer is still going strong while the new models with offshore-made electrical motors often conk in less than five years?

I have this old GE electric can opener.  It's avacado green, if that gives you some idea of the vintage.   It must be about 40 years old.  It seemed to stop working, so I replaced it with a new model and different brand, not the cheapest one either.  But that new one was really hard to use: you had get the can under the cutter just right, and even then it would leave crude edges.  Turned out the blade of the old one just needed cleaning.  It's still working like a charm.  Here's a pic of one that was selling on ebay:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/22/!BQC!bvgBmk~$(KGrHgoOKiQEjlLmEZt(BJ2q6I!TCQ~~_1.JPG)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 06:43:26 PM
These days, manufacturers basically make sure their products conk out shortly after their warranties expire.  Then they make the out-of-warranty repairs so costly that people will be forced to buy new products again.  This is a scam in my opinion ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on May 05, 2009, 10:50:58 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 06:22:51 PM
Many of the vintage audio gears were very well-made. 

Well, I did mention there was a problem with my old Marantz, and I would not go beyond calling it a very good mass market product.

In hindsight I'm not sure a tuner has a place in an amplifier and a tone control is fairly suspicious, too IMHO.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 05, 2009, 11:14:47 PM
Quote from: Herman on May 05, 2009, 10:50:58 PM
a tone control is fairly suspicious, too IMHO.

First they came for the loudness button, but I said nothing, because that is only for casual listening.
Then they came for the tone controls, but I said nothing, because I bought that they were suspicious, too.
Then they came for the mono button, but I still said nothing, because I had few mono Lps.
Then they came for the balance control, but I held my tongue because I didn't have balance problems at the time.
Then they came for the volume control...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 06, 2009, 03:14:22 AM
Yeah. They made it step 2dB at a time. Bloody useless.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 06, 2009, 06:14:05 PM
Quote from: Valentino on May 06, 2009, 03:14:22 AM
Yeah. They made it step 2dB at a time. Bloody useless.

I still enjoy playing my Tandberg gears, part of my vintage systems collection.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 06, 2009, 11:57:45 PM
I used to have Tandberg 3000-series gear. Beautiful boxes. I've owned 3003, 3038A, 3036A, 3028A, 3026A, and 3031A. The latter had a rather cheap FM-board, which is now thrown out. I put a couple of used B&O ICEpower500ASP class D power amplifier modules into that box and they drive my subwoofers. That's what left of Tandberg here.
The whole semiactive speaker system is constructed by a friend of mine, and the main speakers use two SEAS Excel 5" Al-Mg drivers. So my gear is still a little bit Norwegian.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 07, 2009, 03:45:33 AM
Quote from: Daverz on May 05, 2009, 11:14:47 PM
First they came for the loudness button, but I said nothing, because that is only for casual listening.
Then they came for the tone controls, but I said nothing, because I bought that they were suspicious, too.
Then they came for the mono button, but I still said nothing, because I had few mono Lps.
Then they came for the balance control, but I held my tongue because I didn't have balance problems at the time.
Then they came for the volume control...

:D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on May 07, 2009, 03:58:51 AM
Soon they'll come for your ears, and then you'd better be real worried!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 07, 2009, 05:11:08 PM
Quote from: Valentino on May 06, 2009, 11:57:45 PM
I used to have Tandberg 3000-series gear. Beautiful boxes. I've owned 3003, 3038A, 3036A, 3028A, 3026A, and 3031A. The latter had a rather cheap FM-board, which is now thrown out. I put a couple of used B&O ICEpower500ASP class D power amplifier modules into that box and they drive my subwoofers. That's what left of Tandberg here.
The whole semiactive speaker system is constructed by a friend of mine, and the main speakers use two SEAS Excel 5" Al-Mg drivers. So my gear is still a little bit Norwegian.

I have not used my Tandberg TD 20A open-reel deck in a while.  But my main amplications are provided by two Conrad Johnson amps.  I still have two Tandberg receivers and have 5 stereo systems set up at my house ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on May 14, 2009, 08:33:32 PM
My pretty old Wadia 830 CD player developed a problem, so I bought this:

(http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/pics/wadia_302.jpg)

Wadia 302. Even though all CD players sounds alike, this sounds glorious.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 15, 2009, 12:45:06 PM
Oh well. All CD-players sound glorious.
Gongratulations on your purchase, erato.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 15, 2009, 01:28:17 PM
Quote from: erato on May 14, 2009, 08:33:32 PM
Wadia 302. Even though all CD players sounds alike, this sounds glorious.
;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 15, 2009, 01:32:12 PM
Quote from: erato on May 14, 2009, 08:33:32 PM
My pretty old Wadia 830 CD player developed a problem, so I bought this:

(http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/pics/wadia_302.jpg)

Wadia 302. Even though all CD players sounds alike, this sounds glorious.

I had this player at home for a while, and its indeed a glorious sounding piece of equipment....
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 15, 2009, 03:23:18 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 03, 2009, 06:59:10 PM
Needed to replace my Realistic 2100 D Receiver in my workroom and wanted to go a bit on the vintage side without breaking the bank, so grabbed this tonight:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)
   
MARANTZ 2230

....

Nice! I lover these vintage pieces.

For a time I owned the Marantz 2252B below.  Unfortunately really had no place to set up another system, so I sold it to another vintage lover.  I do still own the nice little Marantz 1070 amp at the bottom.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 15, 2009, 03:35:27 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 28, 2009, 04:46:58 PM
I like the tube preamp and SS amp combo.  I run my CJ MF2500A with the Sonic Frontier Line 1.

Ah! Another Sonic Frontiers Line 1.  I've got one too and am quite fond of it.

In my case too it's mated with solid state; for me a pair of Monarcy Audio SM-70 Pro's.  These feed my Magneplanar M6 1.6QR speakers 120 wpc which plenty for the volumes at which l listen.

Sonic Frontiers LINE 1 with weird but effective remote control ...

(http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/SonicFrontiersLINE1wRC.jpg)

Monarch SM-70 Pro, (I've got a pair used as monoblocks) ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 15, 2009, 09:31:36 PM
How would you describe your sound when using your previous Marantz, Billy Batson? ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 16, 2009, 04:06:09 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 15, 2009, 09:31:36 PM
How would you describe your sound when using your previous Marantz, Billy Batson? ;)

Well, the Marantz of the era where generally slightly warm, with strong if slightly lush bass.  They were smoother balanced and less "forward" than, say, Yamaha.  Many considered the latter to be bright, even sharp, but not so the Marantz.  On the Marantz end of the spectrum was Sansui; Pioneer as is generally judge to be in the middle.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 05:01:45 AM
Quote from: Feanor on May 16, 2009, 04:06:09 AM
Well, the Marantz of the era where generally slightly warm, with strong if slightly lush bass.  They were smoother balanced and less "forward" than, say, Yamaha.  Many considered the latter to be bright, even sharp, but not so the Marantz.  On the Marantz end of the spectrum was Sansui; Pioneer as is generally judge to be in the middle.

The only Marantz gear I have ever owned was a second-generation CD player, which was built like a tank and made in Japan.  I still have one of the two Pioneer quad receivers at the house (but unused).  My Yamaha bidirectional record/play cassette deck came back from a repair shop in Chicago a few years ago and I have yet to check it out.  Talking about lack of time ...  LOL
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 16, 2009, 06:02:40 AM
(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34404.0;attach=85338;image)

Sometimes my world revolves at 33 1/3 rpm, but mostly the old SOTA is just sitting pretty.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 06:07:17 AM
Quote from: Valentino on May 16, 2009, 06:02:40 AM
(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34404.0;attach=85338;image)

Sometimes my world revolves at 33 1/3 rpm, but mostly the old SOTA is just sitting pretty.

Sota TT always has a nice natural-wood plinth ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 16, 2009, 06:12:48 AM
Mine is so old that it has a vinyl top. Nowadays they use wood (solid and veneer) on the complete chassis.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 06:16:21 AM
Quote from: Valentino on May 16, 2009, 06:12:48 AM
Mine is so old that it has a vinyl top. Nowadays they use wood (solid and veneer) on the complete chassis.

I thought Sota TT has had a wooden top for some times.  Sota went into bankruptcy a number of years ago, it may no longer be owned by the original founder ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 16, 2009, 09:00:16 AM
That's right, but the current upmarket designs par one are refinements of the original Sapphire and later Star. www.sotaturntables.com.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 09:07:12 AM
Quote from: Valentino on May 16, 2009, 09:00:16 AM
That's right, but the current upmarket designs par one are refinements of the original Sapphire and later Star. www.sotaturntables.com.

Now how does VAT work on American imports since the US does not have a VAT system to begin with?  Your friendly importer in Norway just slapped the import duty on the Sota TT's retail price in lieu of a VAT?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 16, 2009, 09:22:08 AM
Oh, I bought mine used for youwouldn'tbelievehowlittle, and the bits I needed for it came diretly from SOTA.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 16, 2009, 09:58:35 AM
     Here's my vintage setup, bought in the mid '70s and sold in the early '80s:

     (http://www.audiosoundsolutions.net/store/images/DSC00320.JPG)

     Soundcraftsmen 2217 Preamp Equalizer

     (http://www.classicaudio.com/value/mac/MC2105.jpg)

     McIntosh MC 2105 Amplifier

     (http://www.soundadviceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/ohmfs.jpg)

     Ohm F Speakers

     If you question the inclusion of the equalizer remember that the ideology that forbade them didn't even exist in 1976. Equalizers were evaluated like tone controls, for their effectiveness and absence of phase shift. A young person teleported to those days would be shocked at the commonsensical way equipment was viewed. Only those components which could plausibly be said to have a sound had sounds attributed to them. So the sound of the amps here could be said to derive from the power the amp delivered to the speakers (in this case extremely demanding ones), as well as the effect of the EQ I used, which was typically a boost in the low bass and razor flat above that.

    The sound overall was the best I have ever heard, and I attribute that entirely to the Ohm F's. The McIntosh contributed the ability to exceed it's power ratings. The preamp did what it was supposed to do. The room had high ceilings and was squarish, and music sounded good in it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 10:14:46 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 16, 2009, 09:58:35 AM
          
     (http://www.soundadviceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/ohmfs.jpg)

     Ohm F Speakers

The driver design of the Ohm speaker has always fascinated me ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 16, 2009, 12:06:01 PM
Quote from: drogulus on May 16, 2009, 09:58:35 AM
     Here's my vintage setup, bought in the mid '70s and sold in the early '80s:

     Soundcraftsmen 2217 Preamp Equalizer

     McIntosh MC 2105 Amplifier

     (http://www.soundadviceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/ohmfs.jpg)

     Ohm F Speakers

...
Hah!  Terrific. I owned a pair of Ohm F between about 1976 and 1980 -- they were great speakers and it is one of my greatest hi-fi regrets to day that I sold them to  by a pair of crappy B&W DM7's.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 12:13:58 PM
Quote from: Feanor on May 16, 2009, 12:06:01 PM
Hah!  Terrific. I owned a pair of Ohm F between about 1976 and 1980 -- they were great speakers and it is one of my greatest hi-fi regrets to day that I sold them to  by a pair of crappy B&W DM7's.

I think the B&W 800 (Matrix?) series were great speakers, even Karajan used those speakers to monitor his recordings in the studio ....
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 16, 2009, 12:20:07 PM
Quote from: drogulus on May 16, 2009, 09:58:35 AM


     (http://www.classicaudio.com/value/mac/MC2105.jpg)

     McIntosh MC 2105 Amplifier


You gotta love those apples!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 12:22:55 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 16, 2009, 12:20:07 PM
You gotta love those apples!

I prefer this Mac over the Mac made by Apple ...   ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 16, 2009, 12:34:40 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 12:13:58 PM
I think the B&W 800 (Matrix?) series were great speakers, even Karajan used those speakers to monitor his recordings in the studio ....

     B&W Matrix 800 series speakers were the recording studio monitors of choice for many years and there are no doubt many that are still being used today.  The DM 7's were a less expensive, smaller speaker which had the same tweeter as the Matrix line. I still own a pair of DM 310's from the early 90's, even smaller speakers that also use the version of the Matrix tweeter found in the 800's.

     (http://i7.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/33/d7/0b1d_1.JPG)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 02:13:19 PM
Quote from: drogulus on May 16, 2009, 12:34:40 PM
     B&W Matrix 800 series speakers were the recording studio monitors of choice for many years and there are no doubt many that are still being used today.  The DM 7's were a less expensive, smaller speaker which had the same tweeter as the Matrix line. I still own a pair of DM 310's from the early 90's, even smaller speakers that also use the version of the Matrix tweeter found in the 800's.

     (http://i7.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/33/d7/0b1d_1.JPG)

Unlike KEF, Quad and Mission, which are now outright owned by the Chinese with all their models made in China,  B&W is still English-owned and the high-end models are still made in the UK.  Your DM 310's are no doubt English-made.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 16, 2009, 06:11:03 PM
What is your best guess to how a set of Bose 301's would sound with my '73 Marantz?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 16, 2009, 06:21:51 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 16, 2009, 06:11:03 PM
What is your best guess to how a set of Bose 301's would sound with my '73 Marantz?

Are you thinking of buying the Bose 301's new?  Or are they pre-owned?

No doubt you are aware that the audiophile consensus is that Bose stuff is over-priced junk.  But don't let that stop you if you like them though.  ;D

Buying new in the Bose 301 price range, Paradigm Atom (http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/speaker_only-specification-1-1-2-4.paradigm) or PSB Alpha B1 (http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Alpha-Series/Alpha-B1-Monitor) would be considered far better choices.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 06:43:05 PM
Quote from: Feanor on May 16, 2009, 06:21:51 PM
Are you thinking of buying the Bose 301's new?  Or are they preowned?

No doubt you are aware that the audiophile consensus is that Bose stuff is over-priced junk.  But don't let that stop you if you like them though.  ;D

When I was an uninitiated college undergrad, I used to think highly of Bose after I heard a demo of its flagship 901 at some NY Hi-Fi show.  Bose is just a tremendous marketing machine.  While I would not call its speakers junk, they are at best a line of overpriced mid-fi speakers ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 16, 2009, 07:10:17 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 02:13:19 PM
 

Unlike KEF, Quad and Mission, which are now outright owned by the Chinese with all their models made in China,  B&W is still English-owned and the high-end models are still made in the UK.  Your DM 310's are no doubt English-made.

     That's right. I paid about $500 for them in 1991 dollars. Today I think you would be better off with the Canadian small speakers. Paradigm, NHT, and PSB all make good ones.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 07:16:42 PM
Quote from: drogulus on May 16, 2009, 07:10:17 PM
     That's right. I paid about $500 for them in 1991 dollars. Today I think you would be better off with the Canadian small speakers. Paradigm, NHT, and PSB all make good ones.

I have a pair of lightly used PSB Image 2B's in the master bedroom system.  They are nice little bookshelf speakers.  I will buy any of these Canadian-made speakers again in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 16, 2009, 07:44:13 PM
Thanks for the advice.  I am trying to add a bit of crispnees to my old Sansui floor speakers for the late 1960's.  Right now I have some Wharfedale Diamonds:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i.testfreaks.co.uk/images/products/600x400/121/wharfedale-diamond-9-1.561785.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.testfreaks.co.uk/hifi-speakers/wharfedale-diamond-9-1/&usg=__uPTy86_QH4rH0MOASMj1zxzm8eE=&h=400&w=523&sz=69&hl=en&start=13&sig2=KUcGNJc3j0nhy70Zuq453Q&um=1&tbnid=LNTdUFsuX6P0CM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3DWharfedale%2BDiamonds%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DnxC%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=3IcPSvz0OujDtgfqzMSRCA
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 03:16:05 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 16, 2009, 07:44:13 PM
Thanks for the advice.  I am trying to add a bit of crispnees to my old Sansui floor speakers for the late 1960's.  Right now I have some Wharfdale Diamonds:
...

Those Wharfdales have a good rep.  My research indicates that couple more possibilities in the lower price range are the Epos ELS-3 and the Infinity Primus PS162.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 04:42:07 AM
Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 03:16:05 AM
Those Wharfdales have a good rep.  My research indicates that couple more possibilities in the lower price range are the Epos ELS-3 and the Infinity Primus PS162.

And just about any of these names will provide higher quality sound than the Bose 301's ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on May 17, 2009, 05:37:25 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 16, 2009, 06:11:03 PM
What is your best guess to how a set of Bose 301's would sound with my '73 Marantz?

don't do Bose.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 06:10:13 AM
Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 03:16:05 AM
Those Wharfdales have a good rep.  My research indicates that couple more possibilities in the lower price range are the Epos ELS-3 and the Infinity Primus PS162.

Maybe it is my Sansui 3000s I need to replace.  Is there such a thing as too much warmth?  Are my ears no attuned to a different sound than the one I enjoyed as a youngster in our living room?


(http://www.oaktreeent.com/web_photos/Stereo_Speakers/Sansui_SP-3500_Stereo_Speakers_web.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 06:13:59 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 06:10:13 AM
Maybe it is my Sansui 3000s I need to replace.  Is there such a thing as too much warmth?  Are my ears no attuned to a different sound than the one I enjoyed as a youngster in our living room?


(http://www.oaktreeent.com/web_photos/Stereo_Speakers/Sansui_SP-3500_Stereo_Speakers_web.jpg)

Morning, Bill.  These Sansui 3000s really have the classic 1960's look, the speaker grille in particular. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 06:35:17 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 06:13:59 AM
Morning, Bill.  These Sansui 3000s really have the classic 1960's look, the speaker grille in particular. 

Good morning, Stuart.  Indeed.  In fact, the ones I have are the ones my dad originally owned.  I am finding that jazz and some rock sound nice through them, but classical sounds muffled for the most part.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 06:39:01 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 06:35:17 AM
Good morning, Stuart.  Indeed.  In fact, the ones I have are the ones my dad originally owned.  I am finding that jazz and some rock sound nice through them, but classical sounds muffled for the most part.

There had been that criticism that Japanese speakers made prior to the late 1980's generally did not play well to the "western" ears.  But much progress has been made since the 90's when both Sony and Pioneer came out with speakers that have garnered some nice reviews ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 06:47:24 AM
Bill--

You might find it helpful to visit a high end hi fi equipment dealer to hear for yourself what's available in a comfortable price range for you and to get a sense of what seriously good sound reproduction is like.  A quick web search turned up Cherry Creek Audio (http://www.cherrycreekaudio.com/) in Denver and Denver Audio Designs (http://www.denveraudiodesigns.com/) in Centennial.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 06:59:57 AM
Thanks David.  I am playing around with my system as I type here.  Spinning some Boyce Symphonies (about as sparkly as one can get) I am finding that when just through the Wharfedales the sound is very nice.  Add the Sansuis and there is too much "deep sound".  Very old school.

I believe my biggest problem was attending an audio show last fall where there was 160 rooms of top of the line equipment.  Since then, I have not been totally satisfied with any of the sound I can recreate in my workroom.  I am also finding I am constantly adjusting levels for different discs.  I seem to be doing more of that than just listening for enjoyment.

Just switched off the Sansuis again.  The Wharfedales are much nicer solo for the Boyce.

Another key though that I have found is that when listening to components at shops is that they have them set up with their best amps and also placed perfectly in the room.  Bring them home and the recreation can take a major hit.  Is this a fair comment my friend?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 07:13:53 AM


   
Quote from: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 06:35:17 AM
Good morning, Stuart.  Indeed.  In fact, the ones I have are the ones my dad originally owned.  I am finding that jazz and some rock sound nice through them, but classical sounds muffled for the most part.

     I've been prowling around the Web looking for info on the Sansui's and I haven't found anything definitive. These thoughts occur to me, though: A 5-way speaker from the '60s has little chance of sounding like a modern speaker. There are too many things to go wrong: blown drivers, bad caps, loose wires and cracked solder. And even if these speakers have passed inspection from a vintage tech they are reputed to be a little bass shy (!) and limited in the treble. Supposedly the Advents blow these away. I believe it. Of all the speakers produced in the '60s I would pick the Advents to be most likely to stand up on SQ alone. My choice would be to either find a pair or confine my vintage enthusiasm to electronics. Unless you want to score a pair of Ohm F's or Quad's... :D Those will not be cheap, though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 07:36:02 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 07:13:53 AM
     I've been prowling around the Web looking for info on the Sansui's and I haven't found anything definitive. These thoughts occur to me, though: A 5-way speaker from the '60s has little chance of sounding like a modern speaker. There are too many things to go wrong: blown drivers, bad caps, loose wires and cracked solder. And even if these speakers have passed inspection from a vintage tech they are reputed to be a little bass shy (!) and limited in the treble. Supposedly the Advents blow these away. I believe it. Of all the speakers produced in the '60s I would pick the Advents to be most likely to stand up on SQ alone. My choice would be to either find a pair or confine my vintage enthusiasm to electronics. Unless you want to score a pair of Ohm F's or Quad's... :D Those will not be cheap, though.

Speaker components do deteriorate over time.  The biggest problem is crumbling foam surrounds on the speaker drivers.  Anything 20+ years old with foam surrounds -- and this includes the otherwise fine Advents -- either has had the foam replace or will need it very soon.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 08:14:41 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 06:59:57 AM
Another key though that I have found is that when listening to components at shops is that they have them set up with their best amps and also placed perfectly in the room.  Bring them home and the recreation can take a major hit.  Is this a fair comment my friend?
Yes, Bill.  However, you cannot make a silk purse--or even a polyester faux-silk purse--out of a sow's ear.  In addition to setting up with optimum equipment chain and acoustic environment, the shop also has the advantage of the "wow" factor on first hearing surprisingly good sound.  With more exposure you get accustomed to it and it "becomes" more ordinary.

The "trick," to me, has been to get reasonably believable sound reproduction offering satisfying mimicry of live music (especially the all-important mid-range) with sufficient clarity to hear musical details (like the crisp shimmer of a drum kit's high hat) without inducing listener fatigue, and at a reasonable price.  It's possible to get equipment that gets these fundamentals right without spending a fortune.  The trade off for loudspeakers is mostly in frequency extension at the extremes and "heft"--that effortless dynamic response that can almost convince you that you're listening to a real orchestra instead of a recording (assuming you also have sufficient clean power to drive such speakers).  The inexpensive speakers we've all been recommending for the past year or so--the PSB, Epos, and Paradigm small "bookshelf" speakers--will all deliver much better sound than most mass-marketed mid-fi brands (like those old Sansuis) costing more.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 08:20:26 AM
So, let's say I enjoy the Wharfedales (bookshelf), but the Sansuis need to go.  Do I go with two sets of bookshelves, or just one pair?  (I guess I can have both functioning and pick and choose though.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Papageno on May 17, 2009, 08:25:36 AM
I have an Albarry Music amplifyer set and two big Rolland's Speakers connected to my Mac.
What happened to Albarry Music by the way? I can't find any reference of the company's existence online.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 08:34:50 AM
The Wharfedales I have may still be my best choice for my current price range.

I have the 9.1's.  Ran me about $300. 

(http://www.superfi.co.uk/images/main/Diamond-9.1-beech-1302x1090.jpg)

Jumping to $600 right now may be a bit of a stretch for me.  My father continuously goes to auctions though and I will have him  keep a lookout.  He grabbed a Pioneer receiver and a couple decent Sony shelf speakers for me the other day for use at work.  Total cost was only $30.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 08:42:21 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 08:34:50 AM
The Wharfedales I have may still be my best choice for my current price range.

I have the 9.1's.  Ran me about $300. 

(http://www.superfi.co.uk/images/main/Diamond-9.1-beech-1302x1090.jpg)

Jumping to $600 right now may be a bit of a stretch for me.  My father continuously goes to auctions though and I will have him  keep a lookout.  He grabbed a Pioneer receiver and a couple decent Sony shelf speakers for me the other for use at work.  Total cost was only $30.
I've not heard the Wharfedale's, but Robert Reina--Stereophile's modestly priced speaker specialist--liked them very much, comparing them favorably with the Epos and with earlier iterations of the Paradigm Atoms and a step-down Infinity Primus.  http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1105wharfedale/ (http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1105wharfedale/)  If you already have them and are satisfied, then you probably cannot do appreciably better in that price range.  Don't worry.  Be happy.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 08:47:29 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 08:42:21 AM
Don't worry.  Be happy.


Done.  I am finding that my Marantz paired with these is pushing them very nicely.  The obsession to make the Sansuis blend with them may have been my biggest problem to begin with....that and the Realistic amp I had did not function well and left these Wharfedales virtually "unlistenable".
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on May 17, 2009, 08:53:07 AM
Like you seem to be saying now, I don't see what the problem is. Just stick to what you like best, forget about the Sansuis, and don't go to audio shows (or dealer rooms) if you can't spend (say) twice the amount you want to spend. Spend it on music.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 17, 2009, 08:56:27 AM
I've fallen in love with these Swedish blondes here, Guru QM10:

(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34035.0;attach=85836;image)

If I was to have something small, I'd take something that was designed for placement very close to a reflective front wall, these would be my choice. But I don't plan to get them, so this is off topic.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 09:03:04 AM
Quote from: Herman on May 17, 2009, 08:53:07 AM
Like you seem to be saying now, I don't see what the problem is. Just stick to what you like best, forget about the Sansuis, and don't go to audio shows (or dealer rooms) if you can't spend (say) twice the amount you want to spend. Spend it on music.

That would have been like telling me to stay away from the Sears Christmas Wish-Book when I was 7.... :D  Yup, they were selling cables for more than my entire workroom set-up.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 17, 2009, 09:04:21 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 08:42:21 AM
I've not heard the Wharfedale's, but Robert Reina--Stereophile's modestly priced speaker specialist--liked them very much, comparing them favorably with the Epos and with earlier iterations of the Paradigm Atoms and a step-down Infinity Primus.  http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1105wharfedale/ (http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1105wharfedale/)  If you already have them and are satisfied, then you probably cannot do appreciably better in that price range.  Don't worry.  Be happy.

For the money this Wharfedale speaker will serve you well Bill. I had this speaker for testing purposes, and it did excellent with classical music.
Coupled with a clean amplifier this speaker performs very well.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 09:06:07 AM
Quote from: Harry on May 17, 2009, 09:04:21 AM
For the money this Wharfedale speaker will serve you well Bill. I had this speaker for testing purposes, and it did excellent with classical music.
Coupled with a clean amplifier this speaker performs very well.

That is what I have just discovered.  Just need a notch of volume to it when the Sansuis are taken off line and then all is wonderful sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 09:07:14 AM
It has proven to me first hand how much an amp can change the sound.  Still learning at this end folks.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 09:35:36 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 09:07:14 AM
It has proven to me first hand how much an amp can change the sound.  Still learning at this end folks.
Aren't we all, Bill, aren't we all.  (Hmmm, guess not, come to think of it, since some seem already to know it all, making it impossible for them to learn...poor dears.  :'( )

Herman offers good advice.  The law of diminishing returns kicks in with a vengeance and it's progressive, requiring you to spend two or three times as much for each diminishing increment of audible improvement.  If the sound is adequate that you can close your eyes and just listen to the music without the equipment getting in the way, then if it's music you love you'll probably find more satisfaction by buying more software, not hardware--unless you have a surfeit of disposable income, like those dot.com millionaires with $50,000 systems playing Dark Side of the Moon on infinite repeat.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 09:46:41 AM
My dad has always said the same, David.  To make noticiable improvements, plan on large leaps of cash to get to each.  I heard my first six figure set up last fall and you are right.  If you have the money, it does make a difference.  However, after experimenting a bit and finding the right combo, I am very happy with the sound I have. 

On a side note:
What is the deal with preamps?  Are they a decent investment in sound?  Would my system benefit from one?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DarkAngel on May 17, 2009, 10:27:50 AM
(http://www.head-fi.org/forums/image.php?u=496&dateline=1215520314&type=profile)

Coming in late to this thread, but here is main audio system

The Rega Saturn CD player in picture has been replaced by Cambridge 840 CD player which I like a bit better
The Musical Fidelity 308 integrated amp has been professionally modded to improve sound
Headroom MAX headphone amp, Sennheiser HD650 & HD600 headphones
Tyler Taylo monitor speakers with 12" HSU VTF3 sub
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 10:31:42 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 09:46:41 AM
... 

On a side note:
What is the deal with preamps?  Are they a decent investment in sound?  Would my system benefit from one?

Preamps aren't inherently better sounding than the front-end's of integrated amps, or receivers for that matter.  What a preamp can do is offer flexibility, especially the flexibility to upgrade parts of your system independantly of each other.  And that includes the ability to look for what you want or like for each of the separated components.

For example, having a preamp and power amp combo has enabled me to select a tube preamp with a solid state power amp, (a very popular combination by the way).  Since my preamp is a "line stage", i.e. without a phono preamp, I theoretically saved some money not buying phono stage of the same quality as my line stage, (instead I bought a really cheap phono for the very rare time I still listen to my extremely small LP collection).

Still, I'd be quite happy to trade my current preamp and power amps for a choice integrated like this Pass Labs INT-150 ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 10:41:27 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 09:46:41 AM
What is the deal with preamps?  Are they a decent investment in sound?  Would my system benefit from one?
The basic functions of a pre-amp are (1) to boost low level source signals, (2) to isolate those low level signals from amplifier contamination, (3) to provide switching functions among sources, (4) to manipulate the signal if desired via tone & balance controls etc.  

Value depends upon your resources and needs; many integrated amplifiers (pre-amp and power amp in one chassis) nowadays offer very good performance at significantly lower cost than comparable separates.

Your receiver includes a pre-amp, a power amp, and a tuner built on one chassis.  There's no doubt that--unless you do a horrible job at system matching--separates would offer better sound quality, but at significantly greater cost, complexity, and space requirements.

A brief explanation of preamplifier functions is here (http://stereophile.com/reference/917/).

edit--Fixed link
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on May 17, 2009, 10:42:02 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 09:46:41 AM
What is the deal with preamps?  Are they a decent investment in sound?  Would my system benefit from one?

The advantage of preamps is they are physically separated from the power amp, which would make for noise reduction &c (except for those folks who stack their amps on top of each other). Financially you're talking a whole different ballgame, so best don't even think about it right now.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on May 17, 2009, 10:50:47 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 10:41:27 AM
A brief explanation of preamplifier functions is here (//http://).

"The URL is not valid and could not be loaded."

Tell me this, David (or anyone), if you would be so kind. Does using a pre- and power amp combo always make for better soundstaging compared with using a receiver or integrated amp?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 10:52:12 AM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on May 17, 2009, 10:50:47 AM
"The URL is not valid and could not be loaded."

Tell me this, David (or anyone), if you would be so kind. Does using a pre- and power amp combo always make for better soundstaging compared with using a receiver or integrated amp?
No.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on May 17, 2009, 11:02:00 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 10:52:12 AM
No.
So, soundstaging would be more the result of the speaker you choose?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 11:03:26 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 10:41:27 AM
The basic functions of a pre-amp are (1) to boost low level source signals, (2) to isolate those low level signals from amplifier contamination, (3) to provide switching functions among sources, (4) to manipulate the signal if desired via tone & balance controls etc.  

Value depends upon your resources and needs; many integrated amplifiers (pre-amp and power amp in one chassis) nowadays offer very good performance at significantly lower cost than comparable separates.

Your receiver includes a pre-amp, a power amp, and a tuner built on one chassis.  There's no doubt that--unless you do a horrible job at system matching--separates would offer better sound quality, but at significantly greater cost, complexity, and space requirements.

A brief explanation of preamplifier functions is here (http://stereophile.com/reference/917/).

edit--Fixed link

Don't even bother with the tuner if you do not listen to FM much since the tuner that comes with any receiver these days is the manufacturer's afterthought.  In spite of all the talk of digital tuner that plays digital broadcast the last few years, the closest thing we have is SiriusXM and I am not a subscriber.  I do have two of the best tuners that have ever been made.  They are both close to 30-years old.  The top photo is the Revox B760 while the bottom photo is the Tandberg 3001.

(http://www.studerundrevox.de/images/content/revox_andere_produkte/revox_b760_01.jpg)

(http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/TPT-3001.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 11:20:46 AM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on May 17, 2009, 11:02:00 AM
So, soundstaging would be more the result of the speaker you choose?
Generally speaking, yes.  Loudspeaker placement in the room, acoustic qualities of the room, listener position, loudspeaker design, and whether or not the recording was properly miked and mixed are the biggest variables, but amplification does have some effect.  (For instance, an amp with poor channel separation is unlikely to image well).  The most wowie-zowie soundstage imaging I've ever heard has been with small "bookshelf" speakers (i.e. Rogers LS 3/5a) with almost no diffraction, placed well out from front and sidewalls (3-4') in a near-field listening position in a moderately damped room.  Probably the biggest mistake most people make is in placing speakers too close to the front wall.  Considerable experimentation with positioning distances and toe-in is usually required to dial them in. Here 's (http://stereophile.com/reference/1008speaks/) another Stereophile article on that subject.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 11:38:32 AM
      Separates don't sound better because they are separate. They sound better, if and when they do, because the power amp is far more capable than the one located in the receiver or integrated amp you were using. There is no magic formula for getting better sound than you get from equipment meeting it's design goals. The component that is routinely driven past it's limitations is the power amp. Therefore that is what can be profitably replaced (I mean for you :)).

      Once again I have to remind all the mystics here that equipment does not make your music sound better unless you're playing a Fender Stratocaster. If you're just playing your recordings you want sufficiency. There is nothing better than that to be had on the electronics side. Speakers are different, of course. That's because speakers fall so far short of perfectly replicating signals, whereas the stereo signals of recorded music are replicated with an accuracy that is below audibility providing you're not driving the amp too hard. This is why differences can't be heard in blind tests unless measurable differences can be found. Circuits that do their job don't sound different from each other because they are designed not to. It has taken decades of stupid propaganda to unlearn these lessons. What will it take to relearn them again?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 11:41:53 AM
Well, from the article David, it definitely sounds as if I should get some speaker stands for Wharfedales and work on their placement.  Right now they are on a shelf about head level when standing up.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 17, 2009, 11:46:51 AM
Yes. Those Wharfedales are in need of a good foundation. But unless you have a heavy carpeted floor avoid spikes, which are - together with cables - hifi-nonsense at large.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 11:48:43 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 11:38:32 AM

... Circuits that do their job don't sound different from each other because they are designed not to. It has taken decades of stupid propaganda to unlearn these lessons. What will it take to relearn them again?

You can believe that if you like.  That is, both sentence clauses are wrong.  In the first place they do sound different, and in the second place, it is often because they are designed to do so.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 11:59:47 AM

     When they are designed to sound the same they do. When they are designed to sound different....see, that's the problem right there. If you imagine that electronic components could be profitably designed to be "more than sufficient" than you have bought into precisely the fallacy I'm identifying. That is, that after you've met the tech specs you have to add the good sound in or something will be missing. No, there is nothing to be missed.

Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 11:48:43 AM
You can believe that if you like. 

    I don't want to believe what I like.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 12:12:46 PM
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:B9woKZLNvSABGM:http://lupusranting.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/i_want_to_believe.jpg)

Sorry. ;D

Valentino,
What are "spikes"?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 12:16:45 PM
There are really three advantages to separates, not including integrated amp:

1) You can swap components in and out of your system.

2) Better parts quality

3) Better ventilation

But the second advantage may be debatable, as IC's and other electronic components have come a long way since separates were first introduced in the 1950's.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 12:27:12 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 12:16:45 PM
There are really three advantages to separates, not including integrated amp:

1) You can swap components in and out of your system.

2) Better parts quality

3) Better ventilation

But the second advantage may be debatable, as IC's and other electronic components have come a long way since separates were first introduced in the 1950's.

     Basically, you're right. Especially with respect to the power amp. These days receivers are getting lighter, which means it's likely that the output power honestly measured is dropping. A receiver that once would weigh 26 lbs. now weighs 18 lbs. Check out the Sony 820, only one generation old, and then check out its replacement. How much do they weigh? If you want to know what really limits sound quality in mass market equipment this is a big part of it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 12:37:50 PM
Quote from: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 12:27:12 PM
     Basically, you're right. Especially with respect to the power amp. These days receivers are getting lighter, which means it's likely that the output power honestly measured is dropping. A receiver that once would weigh 26 lbs. now weighs 18 lbs. Check out the Sony 820, only one generation old, and then check out its replacement. How much do they weigh? If you want to know what really limits sound quality in mass market equipment this is a big part of it.

Not that I am in a China-bashing mood, but if you look at audio components that are made in China, they are almost always light-weight.  Indeed, light-weight also equates to low price.  A receiver that weighs under 20 lbs is meant to be thrown out after 2 years.

Hey, people get what they pay for - there is no free lunch.  My Revox B760, a 30-year old tuner, weighs almost 30 lbs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 12:49:19 PM
Quote from: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 11:59:47 AM
     When they are designed to sound the same they do. When they are designed to sound different....see, that's the problem right there. If you imagine that electronic components could be profitably designed to be "more than sufficient" then you have bought into precisely the fallacy I'm identifying. That is, that after you've met the tech specs you have to add the good sound in or something will be missing. No, there is nothing to be missed.

    I don't want to believe what I like.

I didn't have to be sold it: I've heard it.  And I'm not as delusional as audiophiles get, believe me.  Check out the debates interconnect cables sometime.  But fine amps don't all sound the same, and the best spec'd ones aren't always the best sounding.

And there are reasons that aren't the anti-science that you suppose. For example the most commonly quoted amplifier specification other than power is total harmonic distortion, (THD).  Transistors aren't particularly linear devices and will produce quite a bit of harmonic distortion, however in typical solid state designs extremely low THD can be obtained by applying negative feedback to the circuit.  Tube circuits cannot be design to produce these ulta low distortion levels but many people perfer the sound of tube amps, (given comparable power capacities or even somewhat less power from the tube amp).

The likely reason is that though THD is very low for typical solid state designs, the remaining harmonics are high-order, that is, 4th, 5th, and higher harmonics.  Tubes designs, on the other hand, have higher THD but the components are almost entirely low order, i.e. 2nd and some 3rd order.  It has been demonstrated in psycoacoustic experiments that human beings find higher order harmonics irritating but 2nd order harmonics much less so, in fact pleasant.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 01:01:33 PM
Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 12:49:19 PM
I didn't have to be sold it: I've heard it.  And I'm not as delusional as audiophiles get, believe me.  Check out the debates interconnect cables sometime.  But fine amps don't all sound the same, and the best spec'd ones aren't always the best sounding.


You hit it right on the nail.  $1000/m cable?  Gimme a break. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 17, 2009, 02:30:15 PM
Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 10:31:42 AM
Preamps aren't inherently better sounding than the front-end's of integrated amps, or receivers for that matter.  What a preamp can do is offer flexibility, especially the flexibility to upgrade parts of your system independantly of each other.  And that includes the ability to look for what you want or like for each of the separated components.

For example, having a preamp and power amp combo has enabled me to select a tube preamp with a solid state power amp, (a very popular combination by the way).  Since my preamp is a "line stage", i.e. without a phono preamp, I theoretically saved some money not buying phono stage of the same quality as my line stage, (instead I bought a really cheap phono for the very rare time I still listen to my extremely small LP collection).

Still, I'd be quite happy to trade my current preamp and power amps for a choice integrated like this Pass Labs INT-150 ...

I have a pre-end amplification of Pass Labs the X250, and can confirm the excellence of sound. This integrated 150 is a real pleaser too.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 05:47:00 PM
Quote from: Harry on May 17, 2009, 02:30:15 PM
I have a pre-end amplification of Pass Labs the X250, and can confirm the excellence of sound. This integrated 150 is a real pleaser too.

Really nice, Harry.  I'm eating my heart out.  But pertaining to your X250, drogulus would but just as happy with the US$300 QSC GX3 professional amp below since it's a properly designed amp and just as powerful.

By the way, those speakers of yours you pictured earlier in the thread, are they Avalon Eidolons or Indras?  Whichever, I'm eating my heart out here too, though my preference might run to Soundlabs or maybe Apogee in the lofty price range.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 05:49:32 PM
Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 05:47:00 PM
Really nice, Harry.  I'm eating my heart out.  But pertaining to your X250, drogulus would but just as happy with the US$300 QSC GX3 300 professional amp below -- maybe more so since it's slightly more powerful.

By the way, those speakers of yours you pictured earlier in the thread, are they Avalon Eidolons or Indras?  Whichever, I'm eating my heart out here too, though my preference might run to Soundlabs or maybe Apogee in the lofty price range.

Is QSC a division of Crown International?  The QSC amp looks a bit like the Crown Macro Tech line of amps ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 06:06:05 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 05:49:32 PM
Is QSC a division of Crown International?  The QSC amp looks a bit like the Crown Macro Tech line of amps ...

I don't think QSC (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/products.htm#Amplifier_Models) is related to Crown; in any case they operate as a separate and also well-regarded maker of pro audio gear.

If you think power is the be-all and end-all, for $1360, this QSC RMX-5050 (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/rmx/rmx5050.htm) will deliver a mind-numbing 1600 wpc into 4 ohms, both channels driven, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, with only 0.1% THD.  Or if you can kick it up to $3k, (about half the price of Harry's Pass Labs X250, 250 wpc), the QSC PowerLight 380 (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/powerlight3/powerlight3.htm) will punch 2000 wpc into 4 ohms or 4000 wpc into 2 ohms.  :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 06:38:58 PM
Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 06:06:05 PM
I don't think QSC (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/products.htm#Amplifier_Models) is related to Crown; in any case they operate as a separate and also well-regarded maker of pro audio gear.

If you think power is the be-all and end-all, for $1360, this QSC RMX-5050 (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/rmx/rmx5050.htm) will deliver a mind-numbing 1600 wpc into 4 ohms, both channels driven, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, with only 0.1% THD.  Or if you can kick it up to $3k, (about half the price of Harry's Pass Labs X250, 250 wpc), the QSC PowerLight 380 (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/powerlight3/powerlight3.htm) will punch 2000 wpc into 4 ohms or 4000 wpc into 2 ohms.  :o

I do not need any more power amps since I already have seven at my house and three of them are over 200 watts/ch, plenty for listening to exclusively classical music. Conrad Johnson makes pretty good amps as well ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 07:24:56 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 06:38:58 PM
I do not need any more power amps since I already have seven at my house and three of them are over 200 watts/ch, plenty for listening to exclusively classical music. Conrad Johnson makes pretty good amps as well ...

Hah!  Don't get me wrong: I wasn't recommending the QSC amps.  And yes indeed, CJ makes some very fine amps and preamps.  My observation regarding the SF - CJ combo is that the CJ can't exploit the fully-balanced design of the SF -- not that that is likely to make much difference.

By the way, what tubes are you using in your Sonic Frontiers Line 1?  I rolled the standard Sovtek 6922 for these vintage Amperex 'PQ' (in the gain positions only).  The difference was a subtle but agreeable increase in warmth and perceived depth of soundstage.

(http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/AmperexPQ.JPG)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 17, 2009, 08:58:36 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 12:12:46 PM
What are "spikes"?
I fast-read this, and it's not too far off, even if it's got an open ended "everythng is possible" conclusion. It's hifi, after all:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/speaker-spikes-and-cones-2013-what2019s-the-point
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 17, 2009, 11:42:06 PM
Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 05:47:00 PM
Really nice, Harry.  I'm eating my heart out.  But pertaining to your X250, drogulus would but just as happy with the US$300 QSC GX3 professional amp below since it's a properly designed amp and just as powerful.

By the way, those speakers of yours you pictured earlier in the thread, are they Avalon Eidolons or Indras?  Whichever, I'm eating my heart out here too, though my preference might run to Soundlabs or maybe Apogee in the lofty price range.

The Avalon's Ceramique. I can say that with the Nordost Valhalla cabling and interlinks, this is the best set I ever had, and will not part from it whatever.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 18, 2009, 03:58:40 AM
Quote from: Harry on May 17, 2009, 11:42:06 PM
The Avalon's Ceramique. I can say that with the Nordost Valhalla cabling and interlinks, this is the best set I ever had, and will not part from it whatever.

Fabulous!  No doubt about that.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 18, 2009, 04:20:33 AM
Quote from: Feanor on May 18, 2009, 03:58:40 AM
Fabulous!  No doubt about that.

Your link to your equipment is not working, at least I see nothing!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 18, 2009, 04:33:40 AM
Quote from: Harry on May 18, 2009, 04:20:33 AM
Your link to your equipment is not working, at least I see nothing!

Neither do I!

Thanks for pointing this out.  It's worked before so I'll have to look for the problem.  Meanwhile, if you're interested, here's my setup ...

(See my link in my signature)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 18, 2009, 05:06:21 AM
My gear. Click on picture to enlarge.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 18, 2009, 05:14:49 AM
Quote from: Valentino on May 18, 2009, 05:06:21 AM
My gear. Click on picture to enlarge.

Very interesting system.  I was surprised to see the non-computer inputs to the Squeezebox: I'd never thought of that.  :D

[EDIT] Oh, I see: not a Squeezbox but the Transporter.  Now it makes more sense to me.  Still an interesting system though.  You have no aversion to things digital: good for you.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 18, 2009, 06:30:22 PM
Quote from: Feanor on May 18, 2009, 04:33:40 AM
Neither do I!

Thanks for pointing this out.  It's worked before so I'll have to look for the problem.  Meanwhile, if you're interested, here's my setup ...

(http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/StereoDiagram8a.jpg)

Nice Visio layout?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 19, 2009, 05:09:02 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 18, 2009, 06:30:22 PM
Nice Visio layout?

Yes, done in Visio.  BTW, my signature link is back in operation.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 29, 2009, 12:30:21 PM
I was finding the NHT Xds rather hard sounding, so I got my big old Dunlavy SC-IIIs out of the back room.  

(http://pic6.audiogon.com/i/a/f/1238461392.jpg)

I've never had a "proper" amp for them.  Dunlavy suggests > 100 Watts;  I've been using a 60W Bryston B-60.  So I found a Bryston 3B-SST dealer demo on Audiogon:

(http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/BY3BSST_INT.jpg)

150W into 8 Ohms, with balanced as well as single-ended connections.  I'm hoping it mates well with my BAT pre.  It was "priced to sell" because of a nick on the chassis, but who is going to see it down at the bottom of the rack.  (I was originally leaning toward the Parasound A23, but I read complaints about reliability.)

The Dunlavys are still a tight fit in my condo since they each need to be 10' (3 m) or more from the listener, and I have limited floorspace in my living room.  These don't go below 50Hz despite their size, and I still have an in-room frequency dip from 80-125 Hz to try to work out.  I'm not sure what I'd replace them with if I did.  Vandersteens, maybe.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 29, 2009, 05:46:34 PM
Quote from: Daverz on May 29, 2009, 12:30:21 PM
I was finding the NHT Xds rather hard sounding, so I got my big old Dunlavy SC-IIIs out of the back room.  

(http://pic6.audiogon.com/i/a/f/1238461392.jpg)

I've never had a "proper" amp for them.  Dunlavy suggests > 100 Watts;  I've been using a 60W Bryston B-60.  So I found a Bryston 3B-SST dealer demo on Audiogon:

(http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/BY3BSST_INT.jpg)

150W into 8 Ohms, with balanced as well as single-ended connections.  I'm hoping it mates well with my BAT pre.  It was "priced to sell" because of a nick on the chassis, but who is going to see it down at the bottom of the rack.  (I was originally leaning toward the Parasound A23, but I read complaints about reliability.)

The Dunlavys are still a tight fit in my condo since they each need to be 10' (3 m) or more from the listener, and I have limited floorspace in my living room.  These don't go below 50Hz despite their size, and I still have an in-room frequency dip from 80-125 Hz to try to work out.  I'm not sure what I'd replace them with if I did.  Vandersteens, maybe.

Dunlavy is no longer in business?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 29, 2009, 06:38:07 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 29, 2009, 05:46:34 PM
Dunlavy is no longer in business?

John Dunlavy, who died in 2007, retired and sold the business in 2001 to someone who apparently had no idea how to run it.   The company closed in 2002. 

Doing some more sound pressure measurements with the SC-IIIs in my room, I'm actually doing OK between 80-200 Hz, but I have a big resonance at 63Hz on the right, and bass falls off under 80 Hz on the left, probably because the ceiling slopes from 11' to 19'.  I'm thinking of getting a Behringer 2496 digital crossover to cut off everything under 80Hz and send it to my NHT subwoofer, but getting the phases right may be tricky.

(http://www.behringer.com/EN/images/products/DCX2496_P0036_Perspective_web.jpg)
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 29, 2009, 10:07:23 PM
 :)
I use one of those as crossover and EQ for my subs.
Have you considered a Helmholz resonator or two? Bass resonance-gobbling stuff, such devices.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 30, 2009, 08:58:25 AM
Quote from: Valentino on May 29, 2009, 10:07:23 PM
:)
I use one of those as crossover and EQ for my subs.
Have you considered a Helmholz resonator or two? Bass resonance-gobbling stuff, such devices.

I have a couple of Echobuster quarter rounds, but I haven't tried one behind the right speaker (there isn't really a corner, where'd you typically put one of these, in that area).  

(http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/bustedbig.jpg)

Would a Hemholtz resonator work in the 63Hz range?  (Well, I guess you make them the right size if you make them yourself.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 30, 2009, 09:01:33 AM
Any serious upgrades are now on hold until my stock portfolios have staged a more permanent rebound.  For now, only new CD purchases, which are just incremental expenses.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 10:58:36 AM
Quote from: Feanor on May 16, 2009, 06:21:51 PM
Are you thinking of buying the Bose 301's new?  Or are they pre-owned?

No doubt you are aware that the audiophile consensus is that Bose stuff is over-priced junk.  But don't let that stop you if you like them though.  ;D

Buying new in the Bose 301 price range, Paradigm Atom (http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/speaker_only-specification-1-1-2-4.paradigm) or PSB Alpha B1 (http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Alpha-Series/Alpha-B1-Monitor) would be considered far better choices.

Quote from: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 06:43:05 PM
When I was an uninitiated college undergrad, I used to think highly of Bose after I heard a demo of its flagship 901 at some NY Hi-Fi show.  Bose is just a tremendous marketing machine.  While I would not call its speakers junk, they are at best a line of overpriced mid-fi speakers ...

Quote from: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 04:42:07 AM
And just about any of these names will provide higher quality sound than the Bose 301's ...

Quote from: Herman on May 17, 2009, 05:37:25 AM
don't do Bose.

Well, I went against the grain here for the first tme ever on this board and picked up a pair of Bose 301's:

(http://members.westnet.com.au/jaarola/Bose%20301.jpg)

Now, before you tie me to a horse, wing its backside with your Colt revolver and have it drag me through a cacti riddled desert, I need to let you know that I only paid $60 (no shipping) for them.  I thought it was worth the risk at this price.  An older gentleman had them and were a gift from his son. He ended up buying a complete surround sound system from Circuit City before they went under and had no use for them.  He said he and a friend set them up once for his daughter's wedding reception and that was the only time they had ever been used.  They sound good and compliment my Wharfedales that extra umph I was missing.  I have to say though, that I agree that they are not worth the asking price of $350.  But for $60........
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 30, 2009, 03:08:28 PM
Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 07:24:56 PM
(http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/AmperexPQ.JPG)

I saw this post on 6922s on rec.audio.high-end.  Of course, it's "just some guy on the internet", so who knows how accurate it is:

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: Sonnova <sonn...@audiosanatorium.com>
Date: 2 May 2009 00:02:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Online Tube Providers

[quoted text snipped]

I had 4 of the 6 Electro-Harmonix 6922 (6DJ8/ECC88) tubes that I re-tubed my
trusty Audio Research SP-11MkII with go bad (gassy, noisy) over a period of
less than a year. I would NOT recommend Electro-Harmonix tubes to ANYONE.
However I have good luck with JJ/Tesla* brand from Tube Depot, who seem to be
very reliable and honest.

* If your preamp uses 6922/6DJ8/ECC88 tubes, its best NOT to buy NOS for this
tube type. The reason is because the 6DJ8 was designed originally as an RF
tube for FM front-ends. For that reason, any 6DJ8 made before about 1985 will
have no internal mechanical supports to damp-out microphonics. Because this
tube was an RF-only dual-triode, the type of internal element support needed
for hi-mu triodes for audio was deemed unnecessary in an RF application.
Compare, for instance, the mechanical structure of a NOS 6DJ8 with a 12AX7
and a modern 6DJ8 from Sovtek, Svetlana, Tesla, etc. and note the structural
differences. The new tube will resemble a 12AX7 more than it will resemble an
older 6DJ8. A NOS 6DJ8 will ring in an audio application, and a newly
manufactured tube will not.


My BAT 3iX also uses 6922s, and comes stock with some Russian jobbies.  It might be nice to have a little more depth and midrange bloom than these seem to provide.  The midrange is good but doesn't take your breath away the way that the Sylvania chrome dome 6SN7s in the Rogue Magnum 99 could (though I eventually moved on from the Rogue for other reasons).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 30, 2009, 04:50:11 PM
Quote from: Daverz on May 30, 2009, 03:08:28 PM
I saw this post on 6922s on rec.audio.high-end.  Of course, it's "just some guy on the internet", so who knows how accurate it is:
...
My BAT 3iX also uses 6922s, and comes stock with some Russian jobbies.  It might be nice to have a little more depth and midrange bloom than these seem to provide.  The midrange is good but doesn't take your breath away the way that the Sylvania chrome dome 6SN7s in the Rogue Magnum 99 could (though I eventually moved on from the Rogue for other reasons).

Thanks for those comments and your own.  The 6DJ8 are not exactly the same specfication as the 6922, so I'm not sure the relevance of his comments.  Anyway, lots of people use old 6922 tubes with no microphonic problems and you can always resort to tube stablizers..  Also I believe that the Electro Harmonics tubes are well regarded amoung current production tubes.  But opinions abound.

In any case the above pictured Amperex 6922 'PQ' have been the best performers of the six or seven different tubes I have tried.  BTW, I bought my tubes used for about US$80 the pair; they are very quite, show no sign of microphonics, and have worked reliably for a couple of years.  True NOS (new old stock) tubes (http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-6922-amp-usa.html) are rare and about 4x that price.

The are about a bazillion different 6922 & variant models that are around.  This Joe's Tube Lore (http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#6DJ8) post at Audio Asylum is one of the best and most entertaining discussions I've seen.  You'll note that he thinks very well of the Amperex model in question, but isn't all that enthusiastic about the revered Siemens CCa.

By the way, I have a pair of what I believe to be later production, (but hopefully not counterfeit), Amperex 6922/E88CC tubes, below, these are pretty good but not nearly as good as the older, straight 6922's.

(http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/Amperex-new1.JPG)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 30, 2009, 05:05:19 PM
Quote from: Feanor on May 30, 2009, 04:50:11 PM
Thanks for those comments and your own.  The 6DJ8 are not exactly the same specfication as the 6922, so I'm not sure the relevance of his comments.  Also I believe that the Electro Harmonics tubes are well regarded amount current production tubes.

Ah, thanks, I wasn't really picking up on the distinction.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 31, 2009, 12:45:10 AM
Quote from: Daverz on May 30, 2009, 08:58:25 AM
Would a Hemholtz resonator work in the 63Hz range?  (Well, I guess you make them the right size if you make them yourself.)
That's the lovely thing with a Helmholz. It works at it's tuning frequency. It's bass reflex without a driver.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/helmholtz-resonant-absorber
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 23, 2009, 08:12:44 AM
This on "perfect sound" may be of interest to some on this thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13170.0.html
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 24, 2009, 08:10:36 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 23, 2009, 08:12:44 AM
This on "perfect sound" may be of interest to some on this thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13170.0.html

    The book might be interesting. Here's the audio file from NPR:

    [mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/20090622_totn_03.mp3[/mp3]
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on July 05, 2009, 04:03:11 AM
Quote from: erato on July 05, 2009, 02:49:51 AM
IKEA Billy works reasonably well in my (admittedly not very tidy) music room.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/IMAGE_008.jpg)

Oops, I've moved this to the right thread...

There is no chance a set up like this will work in my house due to the amount of furniture my wife and I have.  You have a CJ amp just like mine.  Is it the MF2500A?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on July 05, 2009, 04:13:48 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on July 05, 2009, 04:03:11 AM
There is no chance a set up like this will work in my house due to the amount of furniture my wife and I have.  You have a CJ amp just like mine.  Is it the MF2500A?
Yep. With a Wadia 302 and Dali Euphonia MS5s. The key is to have a dedicated room (or no wife) - though I have Vienna Beethovens in the living room (and a wife). The small speaker you see is one of a pair of twoway Ushers bound for my summer cottage.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 03:39:25 AM
Check out this interesting link on open-reel decks, I posted mine there not long ago (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=188529&goto=newpost)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 09, 2009, 01:46:13 AM
For some reason I can't get this page 27 of this thread with Opera or Fifefox. Seems like I can post thou...  :P
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 09, 2009, 05:45:54 AM
Same here with Firefox.
Page 26 fine, 27 is not.

I'm contemplating on

1) Follow the Linkwitz lead and sell my last pair of box loudspeakers.
2) Go PC-based for crossovers, with an 8ch DAC.

We'll see. Good Siegfried has more to him than a great name.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 09, 2009, 06:26:09 AM
PP 25 of this thread is a blackhole?   ???           
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 09, 2009, 06:28:45 AM
Quote from: Valentino on May 31, 2009, 12:45:10 AM
That's the lovely thing with a Helmholz. It works at it's tuning frequency. It's bass reflex without a driver.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/helmholtz-resonant-absorber

The thread lists pp 27 is available but when I clicked on the page, it came up blank ...    ???
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 09, 2009, 06:59:45 PM
I have the same problem with pg.27. Posting now but no clue if anything will come of it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 11, 2009, 12:42:46 PM
The posts from the black hole.

July 05, 2009, 07:13:48 AM:
Quote from: Erato
Quote from: Coopmv on July 05, 2009, 07:03:11 AM
"There is no chance a set up like this will work in my house due to the amount of furniture my wife and I have.  You have a CJ amp just like mine.  Is it the MF2500A?"

Yep. With a Wadia 302 and Dali Euphonia MS5s. The key is to have a dedicated room (or no wife) - though I have Vienna Beethovens in the living room (and a wife). The small speaker you see is one of a pair of twoway Ushers bound for my summer cottage.

August 01, 2009, 06:39:25 AM
Quote from: Coopmv
Check out this interesting link on open-reel decks, I posted mine there not long ago (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=188529&goto=newpost)

August 08, 2009, 02:10:40 PM
Quote from: CoopmvA Krell integrated amp at $2,500 sounds mighty attractive, until I look at the back panel - made in China.  Even a proud high-end audio equipment maker based in CT like Krell has to move some of its manufacturing to China, it is just discouraging.  Question is what Krell can do with the legendary Chinese corners-cutting manufacturing that will end up hurting its image?




Sharper picture ...

August 09, 2009, 01:41:01 AM
Quote from: Daverz
New speakers below, Vandersteen Quatros, in my living room.  I still have the NHT Xds, and may recycle them as rear channel speakers.

August 09, 2009, 04:46:13 AM
Quote from: 71dB
For some reason I can't get this page 27 of this thread with Opera or Fifefox. Seems like I can post thou...  :P

August 09, 2009, 08:45:54 AM
Quote from: Valentino
Same here with Firefox.
Page 26 fine, 27 is not.

I'm contemplating on

1) Follow the Linkwitz lead and sell my last pair of box loudspeakers.
2) Go PC-based for crossovers, with an 8ch DAC.

We'll see. Good Siegfried has more to him than a great name.

August 09, 2009, 09:26:09 AM
Quote from: Coopmv
PP 25 of this thread is a blackhole?   ???  

August 09, 2009, 09:28:45 AM
Quote from: Coopmv
Quote from: Valentino on May 31, 2009, 03:45:10 AM
"That's the lovely thing with a Helmholz. It works at it's tuning frequency. It's bass reflex without a driver.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/helmholtz-resonant-absorber"



The thread lists pp 27 is available but when I clicked on the page, it came up blank ...    ???

August 09, 2009, 01:39:18 PM
Quote from: Daverz
Quote from: Coopmv on May 29, 2009, 08:46:34 PM
"Dunlavy is no longer in business?"


Never could find an arrangement for them in my new place that would really let them sing.   I guess I'll sell them eventually.

August 09, 2009, 09:59:45 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian

I have the same problem with pg.27. Posting now but no clue if anything will come of it.


[NOTE FROM MODERATOR: I've tinkered a bit more with the thread and managed to delete the post which the forum software couldn't handle (it couldn't have been a fault of the post itself, I think it was just something random, overheating or whatever ;D ;D) - it's now in red above. Sorry for the crude method (deleting a post) but, hey, the thread works again! Unfortunately, my method was trial-by-error and the Daverz post now in blue above was a casualty. Sorry for that. Enjoy the revived thread. Cheers, Maciek]
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 11, 2009, 12:46:00 PM
yeah sure thing, you do that, and I'll immediately repeat what you did but with my long post a few times and that should get us back out of the p27 hole. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on August 11, 2009, 12:50:29 PM
I suspect someone posted a hu-uge picture of his hu-uge audio system, with cables as thick as python snakes and speakers like refrigerators on page 27 and it just snapped the GMG-server (if there is such a thing).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 11, 2009, 12:55:02 PM
The GMG-server runs off an audiophile-grade power cable (if it ain't a cable, it aint audiophile-grade). What do you expect?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 11, 2009, 01:37:49 PM
At least I can now read what I posted on pp 27.  I noticed besides my post, a few other posts have gone into that blackhole as well ...    :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 13, 2009, 02:32:49 PM
No python snakes in my system, I use 2 runs of 14 AWG zipcord per side (but pretty blue zipcord!)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 04:54:07 AM
Would you care to repeat what those loudspeakers are, Daverz?
A view to a Michell is always a good one, btw.

I had hifi-visitors in June, and they took some pictures:

(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=35923.0;attach=91485;image) (http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=35923.0;attach=91486;image)

But I might sell this off and start to use open baffle dipoles instead, as mentioned.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on August 14, 2009, 07:01:32 AM
Looks nice, Valentino. Simple and pleasant. Lots of light.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 09:27:05 AM
Thanks. Scandinavian style, you know.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 14, 2009, 10:55:43 AM
Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 04:54:07 AM
Would you care to repeat what those loudspeakers are, Daverz?

They're Vandersteen Quatros.  You may be able to make out the outline of the tweeter, midrange, and woofer under the fabric.  There is a powered subwoofer in the base with two downfiring 8 inch drivers.  On the back you can see the 11 band bass equalizer, contour and level controls for the subwoofer.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 11:55:36 AM
QuoteA Krell integrated amp at $2,500 sounds mighty attractive, until I look at the back panel - made in China.  Even a proud high-end audio equipment maker based in CT like Krell has to move some of its manufacturing to China, it is just discouraging.  Question is what Krell can do with the legendary Chinese corners-cutting manufacturing that will end up hurting its image?

So pessimistic.  Look on the bright side.  That Chinese manufacturer will probably steal the design and manufacturer the exact same amplifier with a different face plate.  By next year it will be at BestBuy for $129.99 plus tax.   ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 12:43:52 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 11:55:36 AM
So pessimistic.  Look on the bright side.  That Chinese manufacturer will probably steal the design and manufacturer the exact same amplifier with a different face plate.  By next year it will be at BestBuy for $129.99 plus tax.   ;D

I have zero interests in bootleg products. 

I just set up a vintage stereo system in the guest room to open up the upstairs music room a bit since three stereo systems were crammed into that room.  This vintage system has the following components.

Harman Kardon hk825 preamp
Tandberg 3003 amp
Carver TX2 tuner
Sony CA8ES CD changer
Yamaha KX-R730 cassette deck
KLH Premier 81

These are excellent American, Norwegian and Japanese made equipments.  The Norwegian-made Tandberg amp is almost 30-year old but it still sounds great.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 01:00:43 PM
I had a 3003 once. Pretty well packed it was.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 01:05:51 PM
Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 01:00:43 PM
I had a 3003 once. Pretty well packed it was.

I miss Tandberg and wish it was still around ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 01:28:37 PM
You can blame the Norwegian government. Tandberg was forced to join up with struggling Radionette, Out of the ashes (Vebjørn Tandberg committed suicide) came the 3000-series, and they were wonderful but way to expensive to produce and then death proper.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 01:29:46 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 12:43:52 PMThese are excellent American, Norwegian and Japanese made equipments.  The Norwegian-made Tandberg amp is almost 30-year old but it still sounds great.

Good amps age well.  My old NAD 1155/2200 pair still running well (had to lube the power relays) and I realize it is now upwards of 20 years old. 

My first surround sound amp was an NAD, which I was surprised to see was made in China.  It was dead within 18 months.  Now using a Sony ES series that I got used off ebay for the surround sound rig and it is providing great satisfaction.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 01:36:17 PM
Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 01:28:37 PM
You can blame the Norwegian government. Tandberg was forced to join up with struggling Radionette, Out of the ashes (Vebjørn Tandberg committed suicide) came the 3000-series, and they were wonderful but way to expensive to produce and then death proper.

I still have my Tandberg TD 20A and TCD 330.

(http://www.audio-extasa.eu/imagemagic.php?img=images/Tandberg%20TCD%20330%20Tape%20Deck%200c.JPG&w=768&h=512&page=popup)



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 01:46:15 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 01:29:46 PM
Good amps age well.  My old NAD 1155/2200 pair still running well (had to lube the power relays) and I realize it is now upwards of 20 years old. 

My first surround sound amp was an NAD, which I was surprised to see was made in China.  It was dead within 18 months.  Now using a Sony ES series that I got used off ebay for the surround sound rig and it is providing great satisfaction.



I still have my NAD 2200, the Power Envelope amp.  It worked just fine when I had it hooked up over a year ago.  The problem with Chinese-made gears is the relentless corners-cutting has made most of the equipments made there unreliable.  Buying a shirt made there is totally different than buying a piece of audio equipment that costs you hundreds of dollars and these days, even thousands of dollars as NAD is pretty much making all its equipments in China now, even the latest Master Series that starts at $1800 and up.  The last piece of NAD gear I bought was the SilverLine S500i CD Player.  The CDP was made in Denmark.  I have stopped buying NAD gears altogether and moved further upscale.  My 2 amps are both Conrad-Johnson.  I may spring for a Mac at some point. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 01:48:04 PM
Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 01:28:37 PM
You can blame the Norwegian government. Tandberg was forced to join up with struggling Radionette, Out of the ashes (Vebjørn Tandberg committed suicide) came the 3000-series, and they were wonderful but way to expensive to produce and then death proper.

:(   Is Electrocompaniet still around?  BTW, LM Ericsson bought out whatever remained of Tandberg, right?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 02:15:16 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 01:46:15 PM
I still have my NAD 2200, the Power Envelope amp.  It worked just fine when I had it hooked up over a year ago.  The problem with Chinese-made gears is the relentless corners-cutting has made most of the equipments made there unreliable.  Buying a shirt made there is totally different than buying a piece of audio equipment that costs you hundreds of dollars and these days, even thousands of dollars as NAD is pretty much making all its equipments in China now, even the latest Master Series that starts at $1800 and up.  The last piece of NAD gear I bought was the SilverLine S500i CD Player.  The CDP was made in Denmark.  I have stopped buying NAD gears altogether and moved further upscale.  My 2 amps are both Conrad-Johnson.  I may spring for a Mac at some point.  

I will also never buy another piece of NAD equipment as long as I live.  I'm wondering what they expect to gain by moving their manufacturing to China.

In any case, I noticed that NAD's web site has a "guestbook."  I've posted a polite message describing my experience, just out of curiosity to see if it actually appears there.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 02:26:25 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 02:15:16 PM
I will also never buy another piece of NAD equipment as long as I live.  I'm wondering what they expect to gain by moving their manufacturing to China.


You had to be quite angry about throwing hundreds of dollars away when the made-in-China NAD surround receiver lasted only 18 months.  The current NAD management is ruining the brand for sure.  When I brought up the relentless corners cutting and chronic reliability issues for made-in-China audio equipments at another forum, I was roundly attacked as xenophobic and a China-hater.  I am certainly not about to make any expensive mistake like buying a made-in-China $2500 Krell Integrated amp.  What I cannot understand is why Krell cannot make a profit on a $2500 integrated amp?   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 02:43:43 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 02:15:16 PM
I will also never buy another piece of NAD equipment as long as I live.  I'm wondering what they expect to gain by moving their manufacturing to China.

In any case, I noticed that NAD's web site has a "guestbook."  I've posted a polite message describing my experience, just out of curiosity to see if it actually appears there.



Let me share my experience.  When I found out NAD is making all its equipments in China, I posted a polite message in that NAD guestbook that I was quite disappointed that NAD's high-end are no longer made in a western country like Denmark, the message was deleted.  That episode hardened my resolve that I would never buy another piece of NAD equipments after having been an owner of the following components since 1986.

NAD 2200
NAD 2100
NAD 1700
NAD 218 THX
NAD 116
NAD 118
NAD S500i
NAD PP1

I also gave away an NAD CD Player to my sister.  I think it was NAD 520.  The NAD 218 THX is the only component that was made in China (I still own all of the above).  At the time, I was told by the retailer (SoundSeller in WI) that the model was made in a few different countries.  Mine just happened to have been made in China.  I accepted that with my antenna up and that was back in 99.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 14, 2009, 02:56:18 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 02:26:25 PM
You had to be quite angry about throwing hundreds of dollars away when the made-in-China NAD surround receiver lasted only 18 months.  The current NAD management is ruining the brand for sure.  When I brought up the relentless corners cutting and chronic reliability issues for made-in-China audio equipments at another forum, I was roundly attacked as xenophobic and a China-hater.  I am certainly not about to make any expensive mistake like buying a made-in-China $2500 Krell Integrated amp.  What I cannot understand is why Krell cannot make a profit on a $2500 integrated amp?  

What?  Surely you understand that capitalism isn't just about making a profit, it's about the highest possible profit.

However being made in China doesn't mean reducing quality necessarily, (as I explained the other day).  It depends on the maker, (NAD, Krell, whoever), and to what extent they enforce quality control.  Cambridge Audio, as I hear own and operate their own factory there.  Otherwise Chinese builders will make whatever you ask them to, and if you insist on high quality (and enforce it through QA), you'll get it.  It's certainly possible given that wages there are 10 cents on the dollar versus the U.S.

By the way, I have an Internet acquaintance who just bought the Krell S-300i; I'll pass on his impressions soon.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 03:39:10 PM
Quote from: Feanor on August 14, 2009, 02:56:18 PM
What?  Surely you understand that capitalism isn't just about making a profit, it's about the highest possible profit.

However being made in China doesn't mean reducing quality necessarily, (as I explained the other day).  It depends on the maker, (NAD, Krell, whoever), and to what extent they enforce quality control.  Cambridge Audio, as I hear own and operate their own factory there.  Otherwise Chinese builders will make whatever you ask them to, and if you insist on high quality (and enforce it through QA), you'll get it.  It's certainly possible given that wages there are 10 cents on the dollar versus the U.S.

By the way, I have an Internet acquaintance who just bought the Krell S-300i; I'll pass on his impressions soon.

I think it is far easier for Krell to enforce its quality than it is for NAD since the latter is the volume producer.  NAD used to have excellent quality across the board and it has always manufactured both the classic line and the premium line with the premium line usually made in the UK, Japan or Denmark while the classic line generally made in Singapore, Taiwan or Korea.  This was true until about 15 years ago. 

I fully understand your argument since I have worked in the financial industry for over 20 years.  Maximizing profits is the objective for every company.  But when a company has its premium products made in China and prices do not come down, there is a serious perception issue.  I believe MB and BMW both manufacture in China but the cars are ONLY for the Chinese domestic market, not for exports into the US.

Please do and post about the Krell S-300i.  I wonder if Krell, a CT-based company, will end up regretting having made this move?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 07:43:28 PM
Quote from: Feanor on August 14, 2009, 02:56:18 PM
What?  Surely you understand that capitalism isn't just about making a profit, it's about the highest possible profit.

I don't think driving customers off is consistent with the highest possible profit.  When I got that made-in-China amp (which was obviously of poor quality even before it died) I had never purchased a non-NAD.  I replaced it with a $199 Sony that was functionally superior in every respect and have now replaced it with a nicer Sony ES amp, which also works beautifully.  They've never gotten another dollar out of me since, and I never miss the opportunity to tell anyone remotely considering any audio equipment to avoid NAD at all costs.  I don't consider that astute capitalism.



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 09:56:36 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 01:48:04 PM
Is Electrocompaniet still around?

Yeah. Per Abrahamsen is out after bankrupcy (and that's good for both sound* and build quality), but the brand is growing and the glossy highend line is still made in Norway. New Electrocompaniet have also aquired Dynamic Precision, which has old Tandberg engineers on board. http://www.electrocompaniet.com/

Per Abrahamsen has a new brand: http://www.abrahamsenaudio.com/

*Per Abrahamsen had/has this idea that amplifiers made for playing back recorded music should have a sound. Nuff said.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 14, 2009, 11:15:55 PM
New toy, a Squeezebox Duet.  The receiver is the little black box on the left.  I have it hook hooked with a coaxial digital cable to my Cambridge Audio 840C.  It may already be worth it for just internet radio stations, which gives me some nice low dynamic range music to play at night.  Strings sound pretty bad at 128kbps, though.

The plan, however, is to put a FLAC music library in the loft, if the Antec PC case I bought is quiet enough.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 11:24:36 PM
I'm a Logitech junkie myself. I use the Transporter as preamplifier. RIAA output is digitized by a RME ADI-2 and fed into one of the Transporter's SPDIF inputs.

Your Vandersteens are quite interesting, Daverz. I very much like that they have a proper bass EQ. I use that myself; no chance of getting a flat in-room response below say 200Hz in a box speaker without EQ.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 15, 2009, 01:29:58 AM
Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 11:24:36 PM
I'm a Logitech junkie myself.

I kinda knew this before, but it's going to be pretty challenging to tag 2500 or so CDs sensibly.  The slimdevices wiki has some recommendations. (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Beginners_Guide_To_Classical)

Quote
I use the Transporter as preamplifier.  RIAA output is digitized by a RME ADI-2 and fed into one of the Transporter's SPDIF inputs.

Oh, wow, you're really dedicated.  :D

Quote
Your Vandersteens are quite interesting, Daverz. I very much like that they have a proper bass EQ. I use that myself; no chance of getting a flat in-room response below say 200Hz in a box speaker without EQ.

The bass EQ is only up to 125 Hz.  The Vandersteen procedure involves trying to reduce nulls and peaks, but not trying to completely smooth them out.  I've never really had full range speakers, at least full range in this room.  The NHT Xds had a big null at about 40Hz, so I was missing a lot of stuff going on in the low bass.  Even without EQ, the Vandys have no problem down to 30Hz.  The Vandy's bass is quite startling on some CDs, e.g. The Papa Jarvi recording of the Sibelius 4 Legends on Bis has low bass I never heard before.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 15, 2009, 02:36:49 AM
My bass Eq stops about there to. I only EQ my subs, and I've found that I cannot boost any nulls more than 3dB while peaks can be reduced almost indefinetely to yield a subjectively flat response. I guess Vandersteen have come to similar conclusions.
My main main speakers are passive, and the system can shake my home's foundations. Flat to 16Hz.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 03:55:04 AM
Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 09:56:36 PM
Yeah. Per Abrahamsen is out after bankrupcy (and that's good for both sound* and build quality), but the brand is growing and the glossy highend line is still made in Norway. New Electrocompaniet have also aquired Dynamic Precision, which has old Tandberg engineers on board. http://www.electrocompaniet.com/

Per Abrahamsen has a new brand: http://www.abrahamsenaudio.com/

*Per Abrahamsen had/has this idea that amplifiers made for playing back recorded music should have a sound. Nuff said.

Valentino,  Thanks for the link to Electrocompaniet, which I just bookmarked.  Electrocompaniet products were barely available in the US prior to this reorg of its US distributorship.  The Norwegian audio equipments are beautiful, just like many Norwegian women.  That is why I am hanging onto my 7 Tandberg components for the long haul.  How do Norwegians buy their audio equipments these days, mainly on the web?  When I last visited Oslo in 93, I think I noticed only one brick-and-mortar audio store.  I bought a wallet in Oslo which I am still using.   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 04:04:52 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 07:43:28 PM
I don't think driving customers off is consistent with the highest possible profit.  When I got that made-in-China amp (which was obviously of poor quality even before it died) I had never purchased a non-NAD.  I replaced it with a $199 Sony that was functionally superior in every respect and have now replaced it with a nicer Sony ES amp, which also works beautifully.  They've never gotten another dollar out of me since, and I never miss the opportunity to tell anyone remotely considering any audio equipment to avoid NAD at all costs.  I don't consider that astute capitalism.





Scarpia,  You are absolutely correct.  Practicing capitalism to the nth degree is not about driving loyal customers like you and me away.  My understanding is NAD is on its third owner or something like that.  It is no longer the same company that was founded back in the late 70's.  Apparently, having only its Classic line made in China is not enough and I will not buy its Master Series.   

I love my CJ amps and its customer service is first-rate.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on August 15, 2009, 05:05:34 AM
The "China debate" is quite tiresome. For companies like Krell, NAD, or Thiel, the point is hardly about "maximizing" profits. It's about sheer survival.
If quality controls are not working properly, then of course this is just cause for being irate. But the simplistic assertion of "[several parts] made/assembled in China = crap" does smack of ignorance, if not outright engineering-racism. [Aside, the Burr-Brown DAC chips remains the same, no matter the color of the hands placing it on the platine.]

Though, if the 'Chinese stench' dost offend, there are products in the next higher price category that are still made in England, Denmark, or Kentucky.

I, for one, have sampled speakers for several hours again (I had already auditioned B&W's CM5 and Vienna Accoustics "Haydn Grand" (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg338545.html#msg338545)) and my favorite, by far, was a China made (Kentucky-certified) monitor the detail and precision of which was astounding.

Thiel SCS4:
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadgethd.com/media/2008/12/20081207-thielscs4-preview.jpg)

Utterly unforgiving, exposing everything that's great (or bad) about a recording. Not a 'blender' at all -- it's like having glasses that make you see your wife in High Definition every morning... rather than gently glossing over her with a touch of rosé gauze. With some non-classical music, it sounded a little stiff... bit like a classical customer trying to look hip at a reggae concert. But every other speaker sounded veiled (or puny) compared to it. Attacks are super crisp, bass smallish but defined and immediate.

The first comparison was a bit unfair; Dynaudio's 110 A (active speaker -- from beautiful Denmark, btw.) just couldn't match the naturalness and precision and its plus on the bass volume was bought at a decrease in definition.

(http://common.dealerscope.com/img/photos/biz/ds/2009/03/dynaudio110a.jpg)


The second candidate, the Revel Perform/a M22 was a much closer match, because its strengths of integration and excellent blend of neutrality and beauty. Not beautification like the "constant flatterer" B&W CM5, but less bent on making sure that absolutely no varnish was on the music that came out. A more practical speaker, I would say, for those who listen intently and to a wide range of music... but not for those who wish to have a precision tool.

(http://downloads.revelspeakers.com/imagelibrary/M22top_cherry_lo.jpg)

Next I'll try the Piega C2 and the Klipsch Palladium against the Thiel (not that I can likely afford either of them), maybe throwing in a Focal Electra 1007 S for comparison.

Too bad the price for the Thiel almost doubles for Europeans. $2000,- (~Euro 1400,-) vs. Euro 2400,- leaves a mental sting in the pocket.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 15, 2009, 05:13:47 AM
Quote from: Valentino on August 15, 2009, 02:36:49 AM
My bass Eq stops about there to. I only EQ my subs, and I've found that I cannot boost any nulls more than 3dB while peaks can be reduced almost indefinetely to yield a subjectively flat response. I guess Vandersteen have come to similar conclusions.

Here's the procedure from the manual:

4. [...] Adjust the volume up or down until two thirds of the tracks read
70dB or higher and one third of the tracks are 70dB or
lower.  This is your reference volume do not adjust
until this entire calibration is complete for both  speakers.

5. Play track one through eleven and adjust each band to
25% of the meter reading noted in step # 4. 
[...]
Note: Do not try to adjust every peak or dip all the way
       to 0 dB.  Our studies have shown  that adjusting all the   
       peak and dips to 0dB can cause a non-musical sound
       with audible equalization effects.  Your left speaker is 
       now properly compensated for the room.

=====
They use an older model Radio Shack SPL meter for this.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 15, 2009, 07:18:31 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 15, 2009, 05:05:34 AM
The "China debate" is quite tiresome. For companies like Krell, NAD, or Thiel, the point is hardly about "maximizing" profits. It's about sheer survival.
...

The "maximizing profits" verus "sheer survival" distinction is overly fine.  In fact it's a continuum.

I'm not buying another NAD, though, because I don't like the sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 07:22:55 AM
Quote from: Feanor on August 15, 2009, 07:18:31 AM
The "maximizing profits" verus "sheer survival" distinction is overly fine.  In fact it's a continuum.

I'm not buying another NAD, though, because I don't like the sound.

Is NAD still a Canadian company?  Isn't PSB an NAD's sister company now?  I have had a pair of PSB Image 2B's for almost ten years.  They are nice bookshelf speakers made in Canada.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 08:12:14 AM
What is all this anti NAD talk about? I am a NAD fan.  0:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 08:15:49 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 08:12:14 AM
What is all this anti NAD talk about? I am a NAD fan.  0:)

Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of the old NAD equipments.  I have no experience with the newer NAD, which I do not own.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on August 15, 2009, 08:23:49 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 08:12:14 AM
What is all this anti NAD talk about? I am a NAD fan.  0:)

Looks like there's a chink in the reputational armor of NAD.  ::)

An audiophile friend of mine is absolutely delighted with their Masters Series.

But in that price range, I wonder if NAD's usual advantageous price/quality ratio isn't used up...
you can get Marantz and Accuphase products, or a T+A power plant for that price, and those
pieces keep their value on the used markets much better. (For whatever that says about their
[perceived] quality.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 08:29:24 AM
No doubt, there is a pricing issue with the NAD Master Series.  If the products were made in Japan or Denmark, at least they can be sold on snob appeal.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on August 15, 2009, 08:54:14 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 15, 2009, 05:05:34 AM
The "China debate" is quite tiresome. For companies like Krell, NAD, or Thiel, the point is hardly about "maximizing" profits. It's about sheer survival.
If quality controls are not working properly, then of course this is just cause for being irate. But the simplistic assertion of "[several parts] made/assembled in China = crap" does smack of ignorance, if not outright engineering-racism. [Aside, the Burr-Brown DAC chips remains the same, no matter the color of the hands placing it on the platine.]

Though, if the 'Chinese stench' dost offend, there are products in the next higher price category that are still made in England, Denmark, or Kentucky.

The knee-jerk accusations of racism are quite tiresome and smack of an ignoramus.  Many of the old-school NAD products were made in Asia and were assembled by hands of the same color.  The issue is that the PRC is the wild-west of uncontrolled opportunism where intellectual property laws are impossible to enforce.  It is a place were bootleg cars are sold.  (Both Volkswagen and Chevrolet opened Chinese plants, to have the plans stolen and factories set up to manufacture the same cars under different names).   If an amp is going to sell for $3000, I don't see why it must be assembled with 10 cent per hour labor, or in a place where it is difficult to maintain proper oversight and quality control.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 08:57:56 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 08:15:49 AM
Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of the old NAD equipments.  I have no experience with the newer NAD, which I do not own.

What is old and what is new? My first amplifier was NAD 302 I bought back in 1993. It is still working perfectly. I bougth NAD T762 AV-amplifier in 2003. It is extremely powerful. Awesome precise bass. Sound quality is very good for an AV-amplifier.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 15, 2009, 09:05:03 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 07:22:55 AM
Is NAD still a Canadian company?  Isn't PSB an NAD's sister company now?  I have had a pair of PSB Image 2B's for almost ten years.  They are nice bookshelf speakers made in Canada.

Yes, both NAD and PSB are owned by Lenbrook Corp., a Canadian company who also distributes other makers' products in Canada and in the U.S.  However most PSB models, like NAD electronics, are now made in China.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 09:05:45 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 15, 2009, 08:54:14 AM
The knee-jerk accusations of racism are quite tiresome and smack of an ignoramus.  Many of the old-school NAD products were made in Asia and were assembled by hands of the same color.  The issue is that the PRC is the wild-west of uncontrolled opportunism where intellectual property laws are impossible to enforce.  It is a place were bootleg cars are sold.  (Both Volkswagen and Chevrolet opened Chinese plants, to have the plans stolen and factories set up to manufacture the same cars under different names).   If an amp is going to sell for $3000, I don't see why it must be assembled with 10 cent per hour labor, or in a place where it is difficult to maintain proper oversight and quality control.


Scarpia,

Indeed, a number of NAD components I have truly enjoyed over the years were made in Japan (NAD2200 and NAD 1700) and Singapore (NAD 116).  
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 09:11:26 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 08:57:56 AM
What is old and what is new? My first amplifier was NAD 302 I bought back in 1993. It is still working perfectly. I bougth NAD T762 AV-amplifier in 2003. It is extremely powerful. Awesome precise bass. Sound quality is very good for an AV-amplifier.

The only NAD component I have bought after 2000 was the Danish-made SilverLine S500i CD Player (see photo).  My NAD 116 and 218 THX were bought in 99 while the British-made NAD118 was purchased in 2000 or 2001.

(http://www.hifi.nl/gfx/nads500i_11_08072003.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 09:27:34 AM
Quote from: Feanor on August 15, 2009, 09:05:03 AM
Yes, both NAD and PSB are owned by Lenbrook Corp., a Canadian company who also distributes other makers' products in Canada and in the U.S.  However most PSB models, like NAD electronics, are now made in China.

I am quite happy with my Canadian-made PSB's.     :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 09:31:28 AM
What I like about NAD is innovations. Recently NAD has been developping digital amplifier technology with Diodes Zetex Semiconductor. The result is M2 stereo amplifier with stunning performance and according to NAD, musical sound that rivals any analog amplifier in the world. Feedback has been a huge problem in digital amplifiers but here these problem have been eliminated with innovative engineering. These advances open doors to possibilities unthinkable in analog amplifiers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 09:36:32 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 09:31:28 AM
What I like about NAD is innovations. Recently NAD has been developping digital amplifier technology with Diodes Zetex Semiconductor. The result is M2 stereo amplifier with stunning performance and according to NAD, musical sound that rivals any analog amplifier in the world. Feedback has been a huge problem in digital amplifiers but here these problem have been eliminated with innovative engineering. These advances open doors to possibilities unthinkable in analog amplifiers.

I think this is what you are referring to.  I will wait a bit before I make the leap for a digital amp.  In fact, I have been thinking about making a great leap backward - to get a tube amp.  Perhaps the Mac 275?

NAD M2 Direct Digital Amplifier (http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M2-Direct-Digital-Amplifier)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 09:11:26 AM
The only NAD component I have bought after 2000 was the Danish-made SilverLine S500i CD Player (see photo).  My NAD 116 and 218 THX were bought in 99 while the British-made NAD118 was purchased in 2000 or 2001.

(http://www.hifi.nl/gfx/nads500i_11_08072003.jpg)

That's hell of a selection!  8) If I remember right, the S500i CD Player was damn expensive!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 09:40:06 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 09:36:59 AM
That's hell of a selection!  8) If I remember right, the S500i CD Player was damn expensive!

$1600 USD.  It might have been even more expensive in Europe.  It has a great drive system and I just may get an outboard DAC to bolster the SQ.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 10:16:43 AM
$1600!  :o

Quote from: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 09:36:32 AM
I think this is what you are referring to.  I will wait a bit before I make the leap for a digital amp.  In fact, I have been thinking about making a great leap backward - to get a tube amp.  Perhaps the Mac 275?

NAD M2 Direct Digital Amplifier (http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M2-Direct-Digital-Amplifier)

Yeah, that's the one.

I'm afraid digital amplifiers will be too expensive for me for 10 years but someday...

I don't get tube amplifiers. When I hear them somewhere I hear more distortion than music.  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 10:23:36 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 10:16:43 AM
$1600!  :o

Yeah, that's the one.

I'm afraid digital amplifiers will be too expensive for me for 10 years but someday...

I don't get tube amplifiers. When I hear them somewhere I hear more distortion than music.  ;D

I will keep my eyes open for digital amps made by other manufacturers.  I will buy NAD again if it shifts some of its manufacturing away from you-know-where but that may be unrealistic.  Yamaha appears to be a pioneer in this technology as it came out with a quite affordable digital amp a few years ago.
AR is supposed to be experimenting with digital amp technology as well.  

Yamaha MX-D1 digital power amplifier  (http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/405yamaha/) 

If Nokia can pump up its share prices in the not too distant future, that is how my digital amp will be paid for ...    ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 15, 2009, 01:44:59 PM
What's in the M2 is class D, or?

I'm using B&O ICEpower myself. ASP and ASX2. The ASX2 sounds simply wonderful.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 01:52:04 PM
Quote from: Valentino on August 15, 2009, 01:44:59 PM
What's in the M2 is class D, or?

I'm using B&O ICEpower myself. ASP and ASX2. The ASX2 sounds simply wonderful.

Not sure.  Did the link I posted mention class D?  I think most digital amps are class D.  No?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 15, 2009, 01:53:57 PM

   I'm a big NAD fan....25 years and counting.

   The only way NAD amps could be said to have a sound relates to their high headroom.  So the 20 watt amps like the legendary 3020 could easily deliver 80 watts cleanly for transient peaks. The power supply you need to do this is much smaller and cheaper than one designed to deliver 80 watts continuously. So unlike other low power amps of the day the NADs didn't clip or limit when you turned them up. They always sounded like higher power amps. They also had a "soft clipping" circuit but I turned this off since it reduced the headroom. I think they still have this on their amps.

   I've owned 4 NAD amps: 3020, 3150, 304 and 743 (a 5.1 AV receiver). They all performed superbly.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 01:57:44 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 15, 2009, 01:53:57 PM
   I'm a big NAD fan....25 years and counting.

   The only way NAD amps could be said to have a sound relates to their high headroom.  So the 20 watt amps like the legendary 3020 could easily deliver 80 watts cleanly for transient peaks. The power supply you need to do this is much smaller and cheaper than one designed to deliver 80 watts continuously. So unlike other low power amps of the day the NADs didn't clip or limit when you turned them up. They always sounded like higher power amps. They also had a "soft clipping" circuit but I turned this off since it reduced the headroom. I think they still have this on their amps.

   I've owned 4 NAD amps: 3020, 3150, 304 and 743 (a 5.1 AV receiver). They all performed superbly.

My 2200 has a +6db dynamic headroom and the 2100 has a +4db DH.  But NAD stopped making amps with "big" dynamic headroom by the early 90's.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 15, 2009, 04:27:02 PM
     I think my AV receiver has plenty of headroom. I'll have to check.

    I'm looking at the C355BEE and it does look like they have changed how they rate the amps. They still have plenty of headroom but some of that is included in the power spec. IOW they are claiming more continuous power (which they always could have done since the 3020 was a 27 watt amp continuous into 8 ohms. So while they are now claiming more continuous power the amps will probably behave the same. The 355BEE has a 140 watt peak into 8 ohms, 220 into 4, and 270 into 2 ohms. To me it looks like NAD is still following the same strategy but playing a numbers game. But it also looks like you're right that the really high transient figures of the 3020 are not part of the current line.

    Now I'm look at the bottom of the line C315BEE. They are claiming 40 watts for this thing? But look at the dynamic ratings:

  8 ohms   95W (19.5dBW)
   4 ohms   130W (20.8dBW)
   2 ohms   180W (22.6dBW)

   That looks familiar. This is an updated 3020 with practically the same capability in real terms. What's different? They're calling it a 40 watt amp.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 04:31:35 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 15, 2009, 04:27:02 PM
    I think my AV receiver has plenty of headroom. I'll have to check.

    I'm looking at the C355BEE and it does look like they have changed how they rate the amps. They still have plenty of headroom but some of that is included in the power spec. IOW they are claiming more continuous power (which they always could have done since the 3020 was a 27 watt amp continuous into 8 ohms. So while they are now claiming more continuous power the amps will probably behave the same. The 355BEE has a 140 watt peak into 8 ohms, 220 into 4, and 270 into 2 ohms. To me it looks like NAD is still following the same strategy but playing a numbers game. But it also looks like you're right that the really high transient figures of the 3020 are not part of the current line.

    Now I'm look at the bottom of the line C315BEE. They are claiming 40 watts for this thing? But look at the dynamic ratings:

  8 ohms   95W (19.5dBW)
   4 ohms   130W (20.8dBW)
   2 ohms   180W (22.6dBW)

   That looks familiar. This is an updated 3020 with practically the same capability in real terms. What's different? They're calling it a 40 watt amp.

The NAD 2200 Power Envelope amp has +6db dynamic headroom.  While the amp is rated at 100 watts/ch continuous power into 8 ohms, it pumps out 400 watts/ch at peak into 8 ohms, I believe.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 15, 2009, 04:57:07 PM


     Yes, all of my '80s NADs were like that. I think they figured out that they could sell more amps by moving the numbers around than staying with the old ultra conservative ratings. It's pretty easy to turn a 20 watt amp into a 40 watt one if your standards are high enough initially. Heck, by today's standards 40 watts is probably still fairly conservative considering what the amp will do when compared with budget offerings from some other brands, especially the multichannel amps which have ridiculously unrealistic power numbers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 05:02:31 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 15, 2009, 04:57:07 PM

     Yes, all of my '80s NADs were like that. I think they figured out that they could sell more amps by moving the numbers around than staying with the old ultra conservative ratings. It's pretty easy to turn a 20 watt amp into a 40 watt one if your standards are high enough initially. Heck, by today's standards 40 watts is probably still fairly conservative considering what the amp will do when compared with budget offerings from some other brands, especially the multichannel amps which have ridiculously unrealistic power numbers.

My Crown DC 300A is the only vintage amp I have that is not functional - it gives off a bad hum when connected.  I presume it has a bummed transformer.  My Tandberg 3003 amp works just fine.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 15, 2009, 05:15:45 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 09:27:34 AM
 

I am quite happy with my Canadian-made PSB's.     :D

It's sad in a way.  A few months ago I read an interview somewhere, (Stereophile?), with Paul Barton, (the 'P' and 'B' in PSB), who was positively gloating about how wonderful it was to have his speakers built in China and how much better speaker he could sell for cost.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 05:21:16 PM
Quote from: Feanor on August 15, 2009, 05:15:45 PM
It's sad in a way.  A few months ago I read an interview somewhere, (Stereophile?), with Paul Barton, (the 'P' and 'B' in PSB), who was positively gloating about how wonderful it was to have his speakers built in China and how much better speaker he could sell for cost.

Isn't Paul Barton up there age-wise and probably sold his company already?  I have the Axiom M60's in my living room.  They are my second pair of Canadian-made speakers.  I got them at Christmas in 01.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 15, 2009, 05:29:46 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 01:52:04 PM


Not sure.  Did the link I posted mention class D?  I think most digital amps are class D.  No?

Yes, but "digital" is a bit of a misnomer in fact, (and the 'D' in Class 'D' doesn't refer to digital).  "Switching" amp is more correct, that is, one whose transistors are either fully on or fully off.  Both the volume and frequency of sound is determined by the length of time the transistors are switched on vs. off.  To create smooth wave forms at audio frequences, the frequency at which the transistors are switched must be far higher than the highest audible frequency, typically over [EDIT]300MHz300kHz[/EDIT] as I recall.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 15, 2009, 05:33:11 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 05:21:16 PM
Isn't Paul Barton up there age-wise and probably sold his company already? ...

I believe (could be wrong) that he is still very involved. Its just he has sold a major interest for funds to continue to expand while at the same time siphoning off retained earnings for his own enjoyment.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 05:39:03 PM
Quote from: Feanor on August 15, 2009, 05:33:11 PM
I believe (could be wrong) that he is still very involved. Its just he has sold a major interest for funds to continue to expand while at the same time siphoning off retained earnings for his own enjoyment.

Anthem, another Canadian audio electronics company, has also tied up with Paradigm.  I have equipments by Anthem and Sonic Frontiers as well.  There are very few standalone audio companies these days.  Even McIntosh, Marantz and Denon are all part of some holdings company ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 15, 2009, 05:47:57 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 05:39:03 PM
Anthem, another Canadian audio electronics company, has also tied up with Paradigm.  I have equipments by Anthem and Sonic Frontiers as well.  There are very few standalone audio companies these days.  Even McIntosh, Marantz and Denon are all part of some holdings company ...

Note that I have a Sonic Frontiers LINE 1 preamplifier plus an Assembage DAC; (see my signature).  The one-time president of Sonic Frontiers / Anthem / Assemblage, Chris Johnson, nowadays operates Parts ConneXion (http://www.partsconnexion.com/index.html), and has no affiliation with Anthem.  Part of his Parts Connexion business, though, is repairing and upgrading old Sonic Frontiers and Anthem equipment.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 05:53:36 PM
Quote from: Feanor on August 15, 2009, 05:47:57 PM
Note that I have a Sonic Frontiers LINE 1 preamplifier; (see my signature).  The one-time president of Sonic Frontiers / Anthem, Chris Johnson, nowadays operates Parts ConneXion (http://www.partsconnexion.com/index.html), and has no affiliation with Anthem.  Part of his Parts Connexion business, though, is repairing and upgrading old Sonic Frontiers and Anthem equipment.

It is nice to know.  I also have the SF Line 1 and the Anthem CD1, which is still a very nice changer after all these years.  One reason I have not bothered with an SACD player is I also have the NAD S500i and Rega Planet 2000, both excellent redbook CDP's.  Unfortunately, I cannot play the SACD layer of my nearly 200 SACD titles.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 15, 2009, 06:05:59 PM
Quote from: Feanor on August 15, 2009, 05:29:46 PM
Yes, but "digital" is a bit of a misnomer in fact, (and the 'D' in Class 'D' doesn't refer to digital).  "Switching" amp is more correct, that is, one whose transistors are either fully on or fully off.  Both the volume and frequency of sound is determined by the length of time the transistors are switched on vs. off.  To create smooth wave forms at audio frequences, the frequency at which the transistors are switched must be far higher than the highest audible frequency, typically over 300MHz as I recall.

I always wondered about that, thanks! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 08:40:50 PM
Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 09:56:36 PM
Yeah. Per Abrahamsen is out after bankrupcy (and that's good for both sound* and build quality), but the brand is growing and the glossy highend line is still made in Norway. New Electrocompaniet have also aquired Dynamic Precision, which has old Tandberg engineers on board. http://www.electrocompaniet.com/

Per Abrahamsen has a new brand: http://www.abrahamsenaudio.com/

*Per Abrahamsen had/has this idea that amplifiers made for playing back recorded music should have a sound. Nuff said.

Valentino

Does Electrocompaniet make any of its products in China?  People thought Tandberg's refusal to shift some of its manufacturing to Asia was the main reason for its subsequent failure.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 15, 2009, 10:39:42 PM
I think their entry "Prelude line" is made in the Far East somewhere, mut as far as I know the "Classic line" and "DP line" is made at Tau, Norway. The "making" is soldering boards and assembling the finished product. Nobody ever did everything in-house, you know.

The company owning Electrocompaniet has it's main business in control electronics for the oil industry, where quality is a teeny wee bit more of an issue than in home hifi.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 16, 2009, 01:42:26 AM
Quote from: drogulus on August 15, 2009, 01:53:57 PM
The only way NAD amps could be said to have a sound relates to their high headroom.  So the 20 watt amps like the legendary 3020 could easily deliver 80 watts cleanly for transient peaks.

I am too young for 3020 but I have read about that legendary amplifier that sold over 1 million units. I don't think it was able to deliver 80 watts peak power into 8 ohm. Sounds too good. I think that's what it delivered into 2 ohms load. My 302 replaced 3020 according to NAD and must be very similar. For 302, NAD gave these power ratings:

Continuous average power output into 8 ohms: 25 W
IHF dynamic power 8/4/2 ohms: 50/60/75 W (dynamic headroom at 8 ohms: 3 dB)

Back in 1993 NAD 302 was their least powerful amplifier but I never managed to overdrive it. The performance of an amplifier is dependent on the signal form. NAD makes amplifiers that perform well with music signals.

Quote from: drogulus on August 15, 2009, 01:53:57 PMThe power supply you need to do this is much smaller and cheaper than one designed to deliver 80 watts continuously. So unlike other low power amps of the day the NADs didn't clip or limit when you turned them up. They always sounded like higher power amps. They also had a "soft clipping" circuit but I turned this off since it reduced the headroom. I think they still have this on their amps.

NAD still uses Soft clipping, of course. I have it on in my NAD T762. Gives extra protection for loudspeakers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 16, 2009, 03:51:31 AM
Quote from: Valentino on August 15, 2009, 10:39:42 PM
I think their entry "Prelude line" is made in the Far East somewhere, mut as far as I know the "Classic line" and "DP line" is made at Tau, Norway. The "making" is soldering boards and assembling the finished product. Nobody ever did everything in-house, you know.

The company owning Electrocompaniet has it's main business in control electronics for the oil industry, where quality is a teeny wee bit more of an issue than in home hifi.


No doubt.  Control electronics that monitors oil production in the North Sea 24/7 has to be precise and robust enough to withstand the elements.  Top-notched quality is certainly a must here ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 16, 2009, 04:03:02 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 16, 2009, 01:42:26 AM
I am too young for 3020 but I have read about that legendary amplifier that sold over 1 million units. I don't think it was able to deliver 80 watts peak power into 8 ohm. Sounds too good. I think that's what it delivered into 2 ohms load. My 302 replaced 3020 according to NAD and must be very similar. For 302, NAD gave these power ratings:

Continuous average power output into 8 ohms: 25 W
IHF dynamic power 8/4/2 ohms: 50/60/75 W (dynamic headroom at 8 ohms: 3 dB)

Back in 1993 NAD 302 was their least powerful amplifier but I never managed to overdrive it. The performance of an amplifier is dependent on the signal form. NAD makes amplifiers that perform well with music signals.

NAD still uses Soft clipping, of course. I have it on in my NAD T762. Gives extra protection for loudspeakers.

I am looking at the brochure for the Power Envelope NAD 2200, the amp that started the trend of high dynamic headroom amps within NAD.  In stereo mode: IHF dynamic headroom at 8 ohms is +6db, IHF dynamic power is 400W (26 dbW) into 8 ohms, 600W (28 dbW) into 4 ohms and 800W (29 dbW) into 2 ohms.  Its continuous average power output into 8 ohms is only a modest 100 W (20 dbW). I will try to scan the brochure into the computer and upload it later today so we can all share.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 16, 2009, 05:26:28 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 16, 2009, 04:03:02 AM
I am looking at the brochure for the Power Envelope NAD 2200, the amp that started the trend of high dynamic headroom amps within NAD.  In stereo mode: IHF dynamic headroom at 8 ohms is +6db, IHF dynamic power is 400W (26 dbW) into 8 ohms, 600W (28 dbW) into 4 ohms and 800W (29 dbW) into 2 ohms.  Its continuous average power output into 8 ohms is only a modest 100 W (20 dbW). I will try to scan the brochure into the computer and upload it later today so we can all share.

Well, NAD 2200 had very large dynamic headroom. Newer NAD C272 has much smaller headroom (2.3 dB), but gives 150 W continuos power at 8 ohms. On audioholics forums people are comparing these two amplifiers. According to them C272 has better sound but 2200 has more dynamic kick on loudest sounds.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 16, 2009, 06:58:14 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 16, 2009, 05:26:28 AM
Well, NAD 2200 had very large dynamic headroom. Newer NAD C272 has much smaller headroom (2.3 dB), but gives 150 W continuos power at 8 ohms. On audioholics forums people are comparing these two amplifiers. According to them C272 has better sound but 2200 has more dynamic kick on loudest sounds.

(http://www.nrpavs.co.nz/archive/Sold_htm/Images/NAD_2600_500x300_pixels.gif)

The NAD 2600 in the Monitor Series is the most powerful amp with high dynamic headroom NAD has ever made.  I almost had a used one once but it arrived busted, courtesy of the USPS.

Specs (http://www.nrpavs.co.nz/archive/Sold_htm/NAD2600.htm)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 16, 2009, 02:37:40 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 16, 2009, 01:42:26 AM
I am too young for 3020 but I have read about that legendary amplifier that sold over 1 million units. I don't think it was able to deliver 80 watts peak power into 8 ohm. Sounds too good. I think that's what it delivered into 2 ohms load. My 302 replaced 3020 according to NAD and must be very similar. For 302, NAD gave these power ratings:

Continuous average power output into 8 ohms: 25 W
IHF dynamic power 8/4/2 ohms: 50/60/75 W (dynamic headroom at 8 ohms: 3 dB)

Back in 1993 NAD 302 was their least powerful amplifier but I never managed to overdrive it. The performance of an amplifier is dependent on the signal form. NAD makes amplifiers that perform well with music signals.

NAD still uses Soft clipping, of course. I have it on in my NAD T762. Gives extra protection for loudspeakers.

     Your numbers do look more realistic. I might have the numbers confused with the 3150.

     These are the official specs for the 3020B:

     (http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1576/clipboard01ret.jpg)

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 16, 2009, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 16, 2009, 02:37:40 PM
     Your numbers do look more realistic. I might have the numbers confused with the 3150.

     These are the official specs for the 3020B:

     (http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1576/clipboard01ret.jpg)

     

Wasn't 3020B the first integrated amp made by NAD? 

If I am not mistaken, the first power amp made by NAD also had power meters, but that was to be the only power amp ever made by NAD that had power meters.

NAD really did not grab my attention until the 2200 hit the market.  I bought the amp from a dealer in NYC and in fact drove in from NJ, where I lived at the time to pick up the amp.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 16, 2009, 07:25:43 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 16, 2009, 05:19:11 PM
 

Wasn't 3020B the first integrated amp made by NAD?  

If I am not mistaken, the first power amp made by NAD also had power meters, but that was to be the only power amp ever made by NAD that had power meters.

NAD really did not grab my attention until the 2200 hit the market.  I bought the amp from a dealer in NYC and in fact drove in from NJ, where I lived at the time to pick up the amp.

    I think the 3020 was the first. I had that one along with the 4020 tuner. I sold the amp :( many years ago. The tuner is at my brothers house where it still works and gets regular use.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 16, 2009, 11:31:35 PM
Quote from: Daverz on August 14, 2009, 11:15:55 PM
New toy, a Squeezebox Duet.

I was very happy with the Duet, until I tried to play the 24 bit/88.2 kHz files I downloaded from the Boston Symphony site.  "Unsupported sample rate".  They only support up to 48kHz.  There's no reason that 24/96 couldn't be streamed over wireless.  I regularly watch 720p divx video files without a hiccup over a wireless connection, so audio would be a breeze.  They obviously want to push the Transporter for hi-rez files.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 16, 2009, 11:40:47 PM
That's right. For 88.2 or 96kHz throughput you need the Transporter or the soon to be released Squeezebox Touch (~$400).

But if you run the current SqueezeCenter release, SoX will downsample any sample rate (up to 192kHz) to the rate your hardware will accept.
Install SC 7.3.3 if you haven't done so yet.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 16, 2009, 11:58:35 PM
Quote from: Valentino on August 16, 2009, 11:40:47 PM
That's right. For 88.2 or 96kHz throughput you need the Transporter or the soon to be released Squeezebox Touch (~$400).

But if you run the current SqueezeCenter release, SoX will downsample any sample rate (up to 192kHz) to the rate your hardware will accept.
Install SC 7.3.3 if you haven't done so yet.

Yeah, 7.3.3 on Ubuntu.  I guess this is a plugin?  I don't see anything obvious in settings.

[Edit] Ah, it only works for flac and ogg.  The files were originally aiff.  Interesting that it still reports a sample rate of 88.2kHz in the controller.

[Edit] I can see the sox command line in the unix process table, and it shows a 44100 sample rate.  My DAC lists the input as <=20/44.1.  So I wonder if some dithering is going on, too.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 17, 2009, 01:15:31 AM
Yeah, I hope so. Proper resampling includes dither this layman believes.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: RebLem on August 17, 2009, 02:26:45 AM
Speakers:  2 IMF MK III Improved 4 way speakers weith Nordost 2 flat speaker cables.   http://www.imf-electronics.com/Home/imf/speaker-range/reference-speakers/professional-monitor/professional-monitor-mkiii#TOC-SPECIFICATION

Power amp:  Audionics CC-2.  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=310147816970  and http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/bobsickler.html

Preamp:  NcCormack RLD-1.   http://www.mccormackaudio.com/rld1.html

Tuner:  Magnum Dynalab Etude FT-101A with a 1/2 wave indoor antenna.  http://www.magnumdynalab.com/x_ft101a.htm

CD player: Arcam CD-72.  http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/arcam_cd72.htm

Next upgrade will probably be a set of good component interconnects, probably Kimber Kable.  Also, a Rega P2 turntable.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 17, 2009, 09:51:45 AM
Quote from: Valentino on August 17, 2009, 01:15:31 AM
Yeah, I hope so. Proper resampling includes dither this layman believes.

I mean dithering from 24 bits to 16 bits.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 17, 2009, 10:11:33 AM
You should get 24 bits. SoX just halves (popspeak) the Fs for 96 and 88.2 kHz.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 17, 2009, 10:27:57 AM
I guess I can write my BSO hi-rez files to a DVD-R in some way that it will be "understood" by my Oppo, then play it back into my DAC.

I downloaded the recent live Levine Mahler 6, by the way, for $10.  Looking forward to hearing it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 17, 2009, 10:54:01 AM
I still don't quite understand: Won't SC downsample you hirez files to 48 or 44.1? Or is the thing that you WANT 88.2 or 96?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 17, 2009, 12:25:43 PM
Quote from: Valentino on August 17, 2009, 10:54:01 AM
I still don't quite understand: Won't SC downsample you hirez files to 48 or 44.1? Or is the thing that you WANT 88.2 or 96?

I'm listening to these hi-rez files with my Squeezebox now, after converting them to flac, but it's the principle of the thing, dammit. ;)

My original plan was to set up a small embedded Linux system to do the streaming.  Might still try that.  I'm sure I could do internet radio with that as well.

BTW, the Levine Mahler 6 has very nice sonics, but it seems a bit bass light and not particularly dynamic.  I don't think it really needs hi-rez.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 17, 2009, 12:45:07 PM


    I want to get an inexpensive receiver that processes HDMI audio (not passthrough IOW). Does anyone have a suggestion? My upper limit is ~$500 but I'd like to go lower than that if I can. The high rez formats are welcome but not necessary. Does anyone know about this? I'm sure the info is there on AVS Forums but it's scattered over a number of threads.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 17, 2009, 01:12:33 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 17, 2009, 12:45:07 PM

    I want to get an inexpensive receiver that processes HDMI audio (not passthrough IOW). Does anyone have a suggestion? My upper limit is ~$500 but I'd like to go lower than that if I can. The high rez formats are welcome but not necessary. Does anyone know about this? I'm sure the info is there on AVS Forums but it's scattered over a number of threads.

This one looks nice:

http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-SR705-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B000OBMX0K
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 17, 2009, 01:23:40 PM
Quote from: Daverz on August 17, 2009, 01:12:33 PM
This one looks nice:

http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-SR705-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B000OBMX0K


    It does look nice. What I'd like to know is how far down the line you can go and still get audio processing (not HD audio, just the usual PCM and bitstream). I want to send HDMI audio to the speakers, not the display, and cheap receivers are usually pass-through only. What's the lowest model in the Onkyo line that does what I want? The same question would apply to other brands such as Yamaha, HK, Sony and Marantz.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 23, 2009, 05:13:15 PM
Here is the NAD 2200 specs from the original brochure ...

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 23, 2009, 10:29:40 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 23, 2009, 05:13:15 PM
Here is the NAD 2200 specs from the original brochure ...



     Those are impressive numbers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 24, 2009, 04:12:45 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 23, 2009, 10:29:40 PM
     Those are impressive numbers.

Yeah, after the 2200, the Monitor Series models 2600, 2400 and 2100 were the only amps that came close to 2200 in terms of dynamic headroom relative to their respective continuous power. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 25, 2009, 09:19:02 PM
I've been burning time playing with the configuration of my Squeezebox server to make classical music more navigable.  Some folks in the community put together this howto:

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Setup_browse_menu_for_classical_music

Basically you set it up to handle some custom tags like WORK (apparently COMPOSER, CONDUCTOR, and BAND should already be supported).  Then you have to tag your files, and I couldn't find anything that would allow me to add custom tags like this, so I wrote my own with PyQt.  It's still a little primitive, and manual tagging is really a pain.  The resulting navigation menus also still seem a little confusing and redundant, but you can at least organize things sensibly by Composer/Work/Conductor/Band/Artist.

I'm also finding that stuff I ripped in a fit of enthusiasm some time ago has no real identifying information about the performance, so I have quite a few mystery rips to figure out.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 25, 2009, 09:31:04 PM


    I load mystery rips into Winamp and autotag them, which works maybe 70-80% of the time. Then I can clean them up in another program.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 25, 2009, 09:34:57 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 25, 2009, 09:31:04 PM
    I load mystery rips into Winamp and autotag them, which works maybe 70-80% of the time. Then I can clean them up in another program.

These are already tagged with whatever was in the free online CD database.  Which is very often worthless.

I suppose I could burn them to CD-RW and load them into iTunes, which uses a different, sometimes better, online database.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 02, 2009, 07:40:01 AM
Just a 'boombox' for my basement workout/shop area - my main requirement was just a CD player that would also do CD-R & MP3 discs; plus, I wanted a FM radio to listen to our local NPR station out of Wake Forest University.

My previous setup was 'cheap' - this is just the basement, now; portable CD player hooked up to some old computer speakers, and no good radio!  Well the CD player 'craped out' after a couple of years of use; so walked into a Sears store, and saw the unit shown below Sony ZS-SN10S - had the features I wanted plus listed at just $80 - so checked out and the box was being discontinued and I picked it up for $20!

Well, the radio brings in my NPR station loud & clear; the CD player accomplishes the requirements above; and the speakers sound better than my old ones - not a bad deal!   :D

(http://www.abt.com/images/products/BDP_Images/big_zssn10S.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on October 02, 2009, 01:56:36 PM
Heading here this weekend.....second year in a row.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on October 03, 2009, 05:32:14 AM
Here is the link....


http://audiofest.net/2009/index.php
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on October 03, 2009, 07:08:40 AM
Quote from: Bogey on October 03, 2009, 05:32:14 AM
Here is the link....


http://audiofest.net/2009/index.php

Morning, Bill.  I imagine you must enjoy the audio show.  I used to go to the NY HiFi Show years ago ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on October 03, 2009, 07:15:04 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on October 03, 2009, 07:08:40 AM
Morning, Bill.  I imagine you must enjoy the audio show.  I used to go to the NY HiFi Show years ago ...

I do not do the full weekend like many.  I am meeting my dad there tomorrow and we will hit about 20 or so rooms out of the 160.  The neat thing is that there is also a vinyl show on the 18th!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on October 03, 2009, 01:02:35 PM
Quote from: Bogey on October 03, 2009, 07:15:04 AM
I do not do the full weekend like many.  I am meeting my dad there tomorrow and we will hit about 20 or so rooms out of the 160.  The neat thing is that there is also a vinyl show on the 18th!

I no longer have the level of enthusiasm I used to have for audio equipments.  Looking back, I think I am more fond of analog audio equipments than digital equipments. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 08, 2009, 01:05:18 AM
Bought this system today for the living room, as a quick listening reference. A tube amplifier, with surprisingly good sound, smooth highs, and a tight bass. Overall detail is amazing.


http://www.consumer.philips.com/c/audioproducten/hdmi-1080p-mcd909_12/prd/nl/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 08, 2009, 01:53:28 AM
Inserted this device in my primary system, and its bloody amazing.


http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/power-conditioners/329-a-secrets-power-conditioner-review.html
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Frellie on November 07, 2009, 06:49:50 AM

Had to find a sound system, last year, for my small appartment. I was on a budget of max. € 1500, but the system still had to be able to rip the furniture apart with symphonic blasts, or make it shiver with choral whispers.

Found this to be more than satisfying:

Denon PMA-700AE
Denon DCD-700AE
(http://www.fransvaneeckhout.be/denon/images/denon-700AE.jpg)

Along with Dali Suite 2.8 Loudspeakers

(http://www.avrev.com/images/stories/jreviews/tn/tn_4874_floor.jpg)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on November 07, 2009, 10:27:22 AM
All I want for Christmas is my two dipoles, my two dipoles, my two dipoles...

(Drawing for cabinet maker attached.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on November 07, 2009, 10:32:48 AM
...but with them I must also have these two subwoofers, these two subwoofers, these two subwoofers...


A bit of Linkwitz, a bit of computer audio, a wee bit of architect input, and many hours of prototyping have gone into this project. Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 07, 2009, 10:36:52 AM
Quote from: Valentino on November 07, 2009, 10:32:48 AM
...but with them I must also have these two subwoofers, these two subwoofers, these two subwoofers...


A bit of Linkwitz, a bit of computer audio, a wee bit of architect input, and many hours of prototyping have gone into this project. Fingers crossed!

Valentino,  I thought your sound system is fully digital? 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 07, 2009, 10:46:14 AM
Here is an interesting link with some excellent article on audio ... (http://www.roger-russell.com/eico/citation.htm#citationx)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on November 07, 2009, 10:47:39 AM
From this one on it will be "fully digital", yes. It's a bit difficult to explain how this works. In front of the 8 amplifier channels there is a little PC that run the crossovers (and RIAA correction), a RME Fireface UC and a Logitech Transporter. Add a bit of wiring and software routing and it plays.
I will still be able to play LPs: The RME has two very nice microphone inputs, and for Squeezebox Server there is this nice little plugin called wavinput.

But the big thing is that I wave goodbye to monkey coffins and welcome dynamic dipoles. That's something else.

Addendum: Great article! Thanks!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 07, 2009, 10:50:53 AM
Quote from: Valentino on November 07, 2009, 10:47:39 AM
From this one on it wil be "fully digital, yes. It's a bit difficult to explain how this works. In front of the 8 amplifier channels there is a little PC that run the crossovers (and RIAA correction), a RME Fireface UC and a Logitech Transporter. Add a bit of wiring and software routing and it plays.
I will still be able to play LPs: The RME has two very nice microphone inputs, and for Squeezebox Server there is this nice little plugin called wavinput.

But the big thing is that I wave goodbye to monkey coffins and welcome dynamic dipoles. That's something else.

But wouldn't your new dipoles have to be self-powered (i.e. active) speakers like most computer speakers and not the conventional passive speakers?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on November 07, 2009, 11:10:45 AM
Indeed they are active!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 07, 2009, 11:12:59 AM
Quote from: Valentino on November 07, 2009, 11:10:45 AM
Indeed they are active!

I have a fair amount of misgivings for the active speakers.  Who are the players in that space?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on November 07, 2009, 11:20:17 AM
Not many in hifi, but some: Meridian, B&O, Adam, and then some semi-active, like Vandersteen.

Don't you like active speakers? In that case how come? I can only see benefits.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 07, 2009, 11:35:03 AM
Quote from: Valentino on November 07, 2009, 11:20:17 AM
Not many in hifi, but some: Meridian, B&O, Adam, and then some semi-active, like Vandersteen.

Don't you like active speakers? In that case how come? I can only see benefits.

I used to have a Yamaha power sub, which I gave to my brother-in-law a number of years ago.  I have never owned another one since.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on December 28, 2009, 04:02:00 AM
New stash for the holidays.

(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34975.0;attach=123116;image)

Dipoles 40Hz-20Khz, sealed subs below. Computerized crossovers, processor loop applied on Logitech Transporter, a RME Fireface UC, class D amplification. C'est la Avant Garde!

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 08:08:03 AM
Quote from: Valentino on December 28, 2009, 04:02:00 AM
New stash for the holidays.

(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34975.0;attach=123116;image)

Dipoles 40Hz-20Khz, sealed subs below. Computerized crossovers, processor loop applied on Logitech Transporter, a RME Fireface UC, class D amplification. C'est la Avant Garde!

Valentino ,  First time to see your post in weeks.  Been on an extended cruise?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on December 28, 2009, 08:32:49 AM
I have been busy finishing these babies, the Christmas run-up at home, and a heavy professional workload. But between that Wagner, Mozart and Haydn. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 08:35:03 AM
Quote from: Valentino on December 28, 2009, 08:32:49 AM
I have been busy finishing these babies, the Christmas run-up at home, and a heavy professional workload. But between that Wagner, Mozart and Haydn. :)

So these speakers are specialized for hooking up to computer soundcard?   They certainly look much larger than my Altec Lansing setellites ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on December 28, 2009, 03:12:15 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on November 07, 2009, 10:46:14 AM
Here is an interesting link with some excellent article on audio ... (http://www.roger-russell.com/eico/citation.htm#citationx)
Thanks, Coop,

And of course Roger Russell's site is a classic those interested in McIntosh Labs vintage equipment (http://www.roger-russell.com/sitemap.htm).  (Another is Bremer's site (http://www.berners.ch/McIntosh/en/McHome.htm).)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 05:01:12 PM
Except for my SACD player, my equipment (receiver, turntable, tape deck, speakers) is all decent quality vintage stuff in excellent condition picked up at various estate sales.

I used to have a higher end system in the past, but sold it off due to financial difficulties at the time.

I will someday get something better, but I've grown to like my vintage equipment, especially considering it only cost me around $300 total for everything including new cartridge, belts, etc, and a little elbow grease! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 05:13:33 PM
Quote from: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 05:01:12 PM
Except for my SACD player, my equipment is all decent quality vintage stuff in excellent condition picked up at various estate sales.

I used to have a higher end system in the past, but sold it off due to financial difficulties at the time.

I will someday get something better, but I've grown to like my vintage equipment, especially considering it only cost me around $300 total for everything including new cartridge, belts, etc, and a little elbow grease! :)

The only equipment that is missing from my system is really an SACD player.  I have over 200 SACD titles but can only play their stereo layers.  There are 2 that are not hybrids and therefore will not play in my redbook CDP's.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 05:46:23 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 05:13:33 PM
The only equipment that is missing from my system is really an SACD player.  I have over 200 SACD titles but can only play their stereo layers.  There are 2 that are not hybrids and therefore will not play in my redbook CDP's.
The SACD I'm using is a Sony 5-disc carousel I got at Best Buy a few years ago for around $150 or so.

Certainly not the greatest for Redbook CD playback, but the SACD capability is excellent. I think this player is still available. You could probably get it at Crutchfield with free shipping, at least to serve for temporary SACD duty until you get something better.

If I was you, I couldn't sleep at night having over 200 SACD's, and no player use them in! :'(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on December 28, 2009, 05:47:06 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 05:13:33 PM
The only equipment that is missing from my system is really an SACD player.  I have over 200 SACD titles but can only play their stereo layers.  There are 2 that are not hybrids and therefore will not play in my redbook CDP's.

Although most (self-declared) audiophiles might violently disagree, I suggest that if you upgrade, go for surround sound (which would involve getting 3 more speakers and a new amp. The upgrade from Red Book to SACD stereo-only (although there are many fine dedicated stereo SACD players (Marantz' 11S1, for example (http://weta.org/fm/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/dsc00520.JPG))) doesn't really improve matters sufficiently enough to be worth it. (That is: for there to be an easily detectable difference.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 05:55:40 PM
Quote from: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 05:46:23 PM
The SACD I'm using is a Sony 5-disc carousel I got at Best Buy a few years ago for around $150 or so.

Certainly not the greatest for Redbook CD playback, but the SACD capability is excellent. I think this player is still available. You could probably get it at Crutchfield with free shipping, at least to serve for temporary SACD duty until you get something better.

If I was you, I couldn't sleep at night having over 200 SACD's, and no player use them in! :'(

Do you have a 5.1 HT receiver?  My preamps are all 2 channel and as such I will need an SACD player with the regular RCA connections and not with some fancy digital connection.  There is a Sony 5400ES out there that seems to meet my need, but it was out of stock at Crutchfield for a while ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 05:58:01 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 28, 2009, 05:47:06 PM
Although most (self-declared) audiophiles might violently disagree, I suggest that if you upgrade, go for surround sound (which would involve getting 3 more speakers and a new amp. The upgrade from Red Book to SACD stereo-only (although there are many fine dedicated stereo SACD players (Marantz' 11S1, for example (http://weta.org/fm/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/dsc00520.JPG))) doesn't really improve matters sufficiently enough to be worth it. (That is: for there to be an easily detectable difference.)
I might tend to agree with you on most classical recordings, as they tend to benefit more from ambiance, but the improvments stereo only SACD gives is certainly noticable in the lower end/bass department, with the few pop/rock recordings I've heard. It also benefits classical organ music and other bass heavy type recordings. Not so much for piano, chamber, or vocal stuff though.

Also, getting a surround system can greatly complicate things, and the cost involved may be prohibitive for some people.

I'd rather pool my resources into 2 outstanding speakers than 5 or more merely "good" or mediocre ones. Not to mention the subwoofer, receiver, cables, interconnects, etc.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 06:12:25 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 05:55:40 PM
Do you have a 5.1 HT receiver?  My preamps are all 2 channel and as such I will need an SACD player with the regular RCA connections and not with some fancy digital connection.  There is a Sony 5400ES out there that seems to meet my need, but it was out of stock at Crutchfield for a while ...
No, just an old Pioneer vintage 2-channel receiver.

The Sony SACD I have (model # SCD-CE595) can be used for both multi-channel or stereo only SACD playback. There is a selector on the remote to switch between the two. You can also switch between the SACD and CD layers, although I don't know why anyone would want to.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on December 28, 2009, 06:13:53 PM
Quote from: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 05:58:01 PM
I might tend to agree with you on most classical recordings, as they tend to benefit more from ambiance, but the improvments stereo only SACD gives is certainly noticable in the lower end/bass department, with the few pop/rock recordings I've heard. It also greatly benefita classical organ music and other bass heavy type recordings. Not so much for piano, chamber, or vocal stuff though.

Also, getting a surround system can greatly complicate things, and cost involved may be prohibitive for some people.

I'd rather pool my resources into 2 outstanding speakers than 5 or more merely "good" or mediocre ones. Not to mention the subwoofer, receiver, cables, interconnects, etc.

...and I, in turn, agree with you. That's part of the problem of SACD. It really shines in 5.0 or 5.1 (depending on what speakers you use), but to get there, there is a cost--and space--factor to consider. Better excellent red-book stereo than modest 5.1 SACD. But if you've found speakers you like, and you have the room and eventually the budget, the upgrading to surround unlocks a few very nice surprises. After years of not doing surround at all (or properly), I've finally started planning the permanent move. With five Thiel SCS4 (http://www.thielaudio.com/) (incredible precision, dead-accurate, instant response... with an analytical tendency, no 'beautification' of sound whatsoever, like B&W CM5, which really rubs me the wrong way) and, possibly, eventually (because they need it) a subwoofer at some point.

Despite not-so-subtle opposition from my HiFi shop's clerks, I might go with the NAD M-Class on Amp & SACD player.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 06:32:05 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 28, 2009, 06:13:53 PM
...and I, in turn, agree with you. That's part of the problem of SACD. It really shines in 5.0 or 5.1 (depending on what speakers you use), but to get there, there is a cost--and space--factor to consider. Better excellent red-book stereo than modest 5.1 SACD. But if you've found speakers you like, and you have the room and eventually the budget, the upgrading to surround unlocks a few very nice surprises. After years of not doing surround at all (or properly), I've finally started planning the permanent move. With five Thiel SCS4 (http://www.thielaudio.com/) (incredible precision, dead-accurate, instant response... with an analytical tendency, no 'beautification' of sound whatsoever, like B&W CM5, which really rubs me the wrong way) and, possibly, eventually (because they need it) a subwoofer at some point.

Despite not-so-subtle opposition from my HiFi shop's clerks, I might go with the NAD M-Class on Amp & SACD player.
I may be getting the new Marantz SA8003 SACD in a few months. In fact, I've decided to go with Marantz for my whole system in the future, now that I found out their new PM8003 integrated amp has a toroidal transformer.

Plus, they have all the features and build quality I'm looking in a matching system at a not too outrageous price, and I can get it all from Crutchfield with free shipping and without having to deal with pretentious, stuck up audio dealers who don't like to take returns if your not happy! :D

I'm still open on the speakers end of it though. Funny, you mentioned it. I was considered looking at the B&W CM5's. I used to have a pair of B&W 601 S3 bookshelves, and they were great!





Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 06:39:57 PM
Quote...and I, in turn, agree with you. That's part of the problem of SACD. It really shines in 5.0 or 5.1 (depending on what speakers you use), but to get there, there is a cost--and space--factor to consider.
Another problem with multi-channel music, is there seems to be few set standards. Your pretty much at the mercy of the producers of any given disc you buy.

Some surround mixes are wonderful, or tastefully done, while others are inaccurate, annoying, or barely noticeable at all.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 06:42:11 PM
Quote from: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 06:12:25 PM
No, just an old Pioneer vintage 2-channel receiver.

The Sony SACD I have (model # SCD-CE595) can be used for both multi-channel or stereo only SACD playback. There is a selector on the remote to switch between the two. You can also switch between the SACD and CD layers, although I don't know why anyone would want to.

So you just use the regular RCA connection between the SACD player and the receiver since your receiver is 2-channel.  For me, the problem is mainly with my 3 dachshunds.  They like to lay on the bay window looking out.  If I go 5.1, the two rear speakers will be right by the bay window and will be constantly knocked over.  In theory, all I need are just two rear-channel plus a center-channel speakers and a powered sub plus the HT processor since I have 7 power amps (some are in boxes) at the house I can use.  I have heard of combo box that combines the rear and center channels (or perhaps all the channels) into one box, but how the sound becomes surround is beyond me since that combo box will be placed in front of me.  Besides, how is that SQ?  So this is both a space and a pet issue.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 06:52:15 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 06:42:11 PM
So you just use the regular RCA connection between the SACD player and the receiver since your receiver is 2-channel.  For me, the problem is mainly with my 3 dachshunds.  They like to lay on the bay window looking out.  If I go 5.1, the two rear speakers will be right by the bay window and will be constantly knocked over.  In theory, all I need are just two rear-channel plus a center-channel speakers and a powered sub plus the HT processor since I have 7 power amps (some are in boxes) at the house I can use.  I have heard of combo box that combines the rear and center channels (or perhaps all the channels) into one box, but how the sound becomes surround is beyond me since that combo box will be placed in front of me.  Besides, how is that SQ?  So this is both a space and a pet issue.
Right, you can still get a partial benefit from multi-channel without having to get the surrounds, which is the part that complicates things the most, as your situation is an example. You'll just be missing the surround info, which you wouldn't have anyway if you were just using stereo.

As far as the HT Processor and the 7 power amps goes, all that stuff is over my head. I just use a conventional HI-FI system.

Also, I wouldn't bother with any kind of "fake surround" type set up. That type of stuff will almost always make your system sound worse. There is no substitute for proper surround speakers.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 07:05:14 PM
Quote from: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 06:52:15 PM
Right, you can still get a partial benefit from multi-channel without having to get the surrounds, which is the part that complicates things the most, as your situation an example. You'll just be missing the surround info, which you wouldn't have anyway if you were just using stereo.

As far as the HT Processor and the 7 power amps goes, all that stuff is over my head. I just use a conventional HI-FI system.

Also, I wouldn't bother with any kind of "fake surround" type set up. That type of stuff will almost always make your system sound worse. There is no substitute for proper surround speakers.

I just may go with the three channel approach since I listen to a lot of choral music and for SACD, the center channel is where you get most of the voice "info".  I also have a good number of classical concerts on 5.1 DVD, guess I will not be able to appreciate the full audio effects.    :(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on December 28, 2009, 07:58:55 PM
Quote from: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 06:32:05 PM
I'm still open on the speakers end of it though. Funny, you mentioned it. I was considered looking at the B&W CM5's. I used to have a pair of B&W 601 S3 bookshelves, and they were great!

Marantz build-quality is amazing. The 11S1 felt like a luxury vehicle... rock solid, sturdy. It made me as happy when it was just sitting there as it did, playing. Too bad it didn't sound all that much greater than the gear I had.  :D

I might condone anyone not caring too much about sampling a source before they buy... if it's good stuff it will be good--the more important matters about players are in any case button-press response time, CD-read delay, and error correction. The rest is marginal nuance, assuming it's properly built. Speakers I can only urge anyone to sample before purchase. At the price of getting two--much less five--speakers of the type of a B&W CM5, it's well worth making it a two-day holiday to the nearest big city where an audio dealer lets you use their room to sample and even compare. (If that's what it takes.)

What bothered me about the CM5s was their strong tendency to make everything sound beautiful, to flatter the ear, to smoothen the whole picture. But unfortunately smooth also means a slight smudge, and I was driven nuts by what I felt were speakers that tried to 'put one over me'. I wasn't buying the beauty... I wanted radical truth. B&W is a mainstream sound... perfect for background music and a very broad palette of music. The Thiel SCS4 was a wee bit awkward with with music like Salif Keita. I can't remember the other US American monitor I tried... also very, very impressive and perhaps 'better' in the all-round sense--but the accuracy of the SCS4 had me totally enchanted for the last listening session.

In any case, if I'd want beautification, I much prefer the 'luxurious' type... Sonus Faber (Liuto Monitor)  or Sonics Argenta... or the classic cool, but not exaggerated, detail of Canton (Reference 9.2DC, Vento 820)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on December 28, 2009, 10:32:33 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 08:35:03 AM
So these speakers are specialized for hooking up to computer soundcard?   They certainly look much larger than my Altec Lansing setellites ...
Yes, the system needs computer software and 8 DAC channels to function.

There is an "analog" equivalent out there, the Linkwitz Lab Orion++ (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_us.htm), which also was the main inspiration for this project.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 29, 2009, 10:25:51 AM
Quote from: Valentino on December 28, 2009, 10:32:33 PM
Yes, the system needs computer software and 8 DAC channels to function.

There is an "analog" equivalent out there, the Linkwitz Lab Orion++ (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_us.htm), which also was the main inspiration for this project.

Have you managed much space saving by going all digital?  I have NEVER stepped into a Scandinavian home and have no clue as to what the typical size of an average house in your part of the world is (even though I have visited Scandinavia a few times as a tourist).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on December 29, 2009, 01:54:34 PM
I till have the same Montana (http://www.montana.dk/en/Living/Home/) cabinet for elecronics and such, but there is less electronics in it now. I decorate with box sets, like HM50, the Solti Ring and DG111.  ;D
The main benefit by going all digital is to do all signal processing in the digital domain. With digital you can do anything.

As for living space in Scandinavia I do not think it really matters. To get proper sound speakers need to be at least 1m (3ft+) from any wall, so the room should be 250 sq ft or more. No big deal in the US, or?

Addendum one month later  ::)

(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34975.0;attach=123116;image)

Scandinavian Modern rules OK.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 31, 2010, 05:29:17 AM
Adding this little flowchart of how my new system works. Nothing to be scared of, it doesn't bite or kick.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 05:42:59 AM
Quote from: Valentino on January 31, 2010, 05:29:17 AM
Adding this little flowchart of how my new system works. Nothing to be scared of, it doesn't bite or kick.

Very nice!  I am going retro, as I am seriously considering getting either a McIntosh or an Audio Research tube amp.  There really is not a lot of reason for me to go 100% digital since I already have a pretty good-sized classical library of traditional media - from LP to open-reel to cassette and CD.  MP3's do not count, even though I have a huge number of them as well.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on February 13, 2010, 05:41:36 AM
Dark Angel- What make and model speakers do you own? Mine are designed the same way, with the tweeter in the center and two larger speakers on either side. Mine are Polk Audio Monitor 40s:

(http://cdn1.techbargains.com/icache/2009/07/14/00006727.jpeg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DarkAngel on February 13, 2010, 05:47:19 AM
George
My speakers are custom made by Tyler Acoustics USA the Linbrook Signature Monitors, very expensive but sound great. Those are Seas Millenium soft dome tweeters, very nice

http://www.tyleracoustics.com/ (http://www.tyleracoustics.com/)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 13, 2010, 06:30:19 AM
Quote from: George on February 13, 2010, 05:41:36 AM
Dark Angel- What make and model speakers do you own? Mine are designed the same way, with the tweeter in the center and two larger speakers on either side. Mine are Polk Audio Monitor 40s:

(http://cdn1.techbargains.com/icache/2009/07/14/00006727.jpeg)

I have Polk Audio Monitors as well, but towers.  I think that just DA's speaker stands are more expensive than our low-fi speakers! :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on February 13, 2010, 12:37:15 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 13, 2010, 06:30:19 AM
I have Polk Audio Monitors as well, but towers.  I think that just DA's speaker stands are more expensive than our low-fi speakers! :D

;D

I love my Polks! Which ones do you have?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 13, 2010, 12:46:18 PM
Quote from: George on February 13, 2010, 12:37:15 PM
;D

I love my Polks! Which ones do you have?

I have the 50s. :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ECG77RRVL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on February 13, 2010, 12:50:08 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 13, 2010, 12:46:18 PM
I have the 50s. :)

Cool.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on February 13, 2010, 03:54:57 PM
Very happy with Polk LSi9's which are the basis of my 5.1 surround system.

(http://www.polkaudio.com/images/lineup/book-lsi-large.jpg)

Also have a pair of Polk RTi70's which for 2-channel media.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/418F9WS0G9L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

The RTi70's are driven by an old school NAD 2200 power amp, and a NAD 1155 pre-amp

In the basement have an old pair of ADS L810 speakers, Sound good but just too big.

(http://pic3.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1255340858.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 13, 2010, 07:53:27 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 13, 2010, 06:30:19 AM
I have Polk Audio Monitors as well, but towers.  I think that just DA's speaker stands are more expensive than our low-fi speakers! :D

You need to strike a balance.  Having a great sound system but without a decent-sized collection of good music also defeats the purpose.  While some would argue speakers are important, I think electronics are quite important as well.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on February 13, 2010, 10:47:45 PM
In my music room I got a pair of these:
(http://www.soundandvisionworkshop.com/images/Dali_MS5CCX.JPG)

Dali Euphonia MS5

In the living room, I use these:
(http://www.stereofil.no/produkter/images/vienna_beethoven_concert.jpg)

Vienna Acoustics Beethoven
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2010, 05:15:05 AM
Quote from: erato on February 13, 2010, 10:47:45 PM
In my music room I got a pair of these:
(http://www.soundandvisionworkshop.com/images/Dali_MS5CCX.JPG)

Dali Euphonia MS5

In the living room, I use these:
(http://www.stereofil.no/produkter/images/vienna_beethoven_concert.jpg)

Vienna Acoustics Beethoven

Erato, you must have large listening room at your house.  I can never have such large speakers at my house since I already have had the Definitive Technology BP20's since 95 ...

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 14, 2010, 05:23:54 AM
Quote from: erato on February 13, 2010, 10:47:45 PM
In my music room I got a pair of these:
(http://www.soundandvisionworkshop.com/images/Dali_MS5CCX.JPG)

Dali Euphonia MS5


It looks painfully beautiful.  :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on February 14, 2010, 05:27:02 AM
28 sqm music room - the secret here is being able to position the speakers optimally in a room with no other use than listening to music. So they are set up well away from walls in an approximately equilateral triangle with 3 m sides.

55 sqm living room, the Viennas are an easy placement there.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on February 14, 2010, 05:27:55 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 14, 2010, 05:23:54 AM
It looks painfully beautiful.  :D
Yes they are, if you are addicted to these things! ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2010, 05:40:24 AM
Quote from: erato on February 14, 2010, 05:27:02 AM
28 sqm music room - the secret here is being able to position the speakers optimally in a room with no other use than listening to music. So they are set up well away from walls in an approximately equilateral triangle with 3 m sides.

55 sqm living room, the Viennas are an easy placement there.

My listening room is probably 20' x 20', which is about 36 sqm.  The BP20's, which are bipolar and just right for a room of such size.

(http://www.saturdayaudio.com/picturepages/definitive_technology_bp20_a.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on February 14, 2010, 07:11:56 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 14, 2010, 05:40:24 AM
My listening room is probably 20' x 20', which is about 36 sqm.  The BP20's, which are bipolar and just right for a room of such size.

Yeah, but the medication bills must be expensive...

;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 12:34:18 PM
Beogram TX2 Turntable with an MMC 3 cartridge was just given to me for free. Is this a better option than my Project 3 than I am now using? Thanks!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on April 10, 2010, 12:37:40 PM
Quote from: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 12:34:18 PM
Beogram TX2 Turntable with an MMC 3 cartridge was just given to me for free. Is this a better option than my Project 3 than I am now using? Thanks!

Sounds like it's time for a shootout. maybe plug both into an amp with an LP that you have two copies of playing on each, so you can switch back and forth.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 12:41:25 PM
Quote from: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 12:34:18 PM
Beogram TX2 Turntable with an MMC 3 cartridge was just given to me for free. Is this a better option than my Project 3 than I am now using? Thanks!

Bill, I had the B&O TX and that was a pretty problematic linear-tracking TT due to some design flaws.  My understanding is TX2 should be a vast improvement over TX.  Project 3 has a conventional pivoted arm while TX2 is a linear-tracker, which traverses the record in much the same way the record is cut.  In theory, it should be more accurate.  MMC3 is also an excellent cartridge - it is a plug-in, no cartridge cables to mess around with.  If you got the TX2 for free, I say enjoy it ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 01:06:25 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 12:41:25 PM
Bill, I had the B&O TX and that was a pretty problematic linear-tracking TT due to some design flaws.  My understanding is TX2 should be a vast improvement over TX.  Project 3 has a conventional pivoted arm while TX2 is a linear-tracker, which traverses the record in much the same way the record is cut.  In theory, it should be more accurate.  MMC3 is also an excellent cartridge - it is a plug-in, no cartridge cables to mess around with.  If you got the TX2 for free, I say enjoy it ...

Do you remember the silver disc you set on to, Stuart?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 01:09:00 PM
Quote from: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 01:06:25 PM
Do you remember the silver disc you set on to, Stuart?

Did you mean the TT platter?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 01:25:19 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 01:09:00 PM
Did you mean the TT platter?

Yes.  Figured it out.  However, there seems to be a clear guard on the needle.  Does that just pop off?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 01:32:11 PM
Quote from: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 01:25:19 PM
Yes.  Figured it out.  However, there seems to be a clear guard on the needle.  Does that just pop off?

Bill, You just push the stylus guard upward when you play your record.  I just looked at my MMC2 cartridge.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 01:34:19 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 01:32:11 PM
Bill, You just push the stylus guard upward when you play your record.  I just looked at my MMC2 cartridge.

Many, many, thanks, Stuart!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 01:37:22 PM
You just may want to hold on to that cartridge, Stuart:

http://www.elexatelier.com/bangandolufsenphono.htm  $:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on April 10, 2010, 01:39:20 PM
You might want to have the local audio shop check the stylus if you don't know how much play it has on it.

http://www.sound-smith.com/

makes replacement cartridges.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 01:42:54 PM
Quote from: Daverz on April 10, 2010, 01:39:20 PM
You might want to have the local audio shop check the stylus if you don't know how much play it has on it.

http://www.sound-smith.com/

makes replacement cartridges.

Do they have replacements for this tt, Daverz?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 01:44:39 PM
Ah....found it!  Thanks for the link.  Great to know there are some out there.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 01:42:54 PM
Do they have replacements for this tt, Daverz?

Dave beat me to SoundSmith, which is not far from my house.  SoundSmith specializes in servicing certain vintage equipments such as Tandberg and B&O.  I have a few Tandberg and my B&O 8002 has some speed sensor problem, which causes it to shut off in the middle of play.  Someone recommended some part replacements from Denmark to fix the problem but that requires me to do some soldering, which I am not comfortable with ...   ???
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on May 08, 2010, 12:52:04 PM
My system is listed on my signature, and there's a pic of it there.

Earlier this year I sold my 4-year old Martin Logan Vantage speakers and bought a pair of Analysis Audio Amphitryon, which I've auditioned a couple of years ago and knew that I'd get them at some point. Big step up financially but it was definitely worth it. Next step will be upgrading amplification, probably to tube monoblocks (or at least solid-state monoblocks but undoubtedly with a reference tube preamp). After that I might eventually upgrade my CD player to an Esoteric P-03/D-03.

Right now the system plays really really well, especially after tube-rolling my amp. The upgrades above are firmly on the diminishing returns side of things, but it's not unlike the never ending quest for the best rendition of a musical work, so I know that I'll end up doing them, however long it takes.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 22, 2010, 04:45:14 PM
Borrowed this guy from the audio shop for the weekend:

(http://www.balanced.com/products/amp/Vk-55SE/images/VK-55SEFront.jpg)

The BAT VK-55SE, which uses 6H30 tubes.  55 watts, which is plenty for my room.  Really much more than I'd want to pay for an amp, though.  There is a cheaper non-SE version that uses 6922 tubes.  Enjoying the extra demensionality, but the bass seems a bit too warmish.  May be able to mitigate that by adjusting my Vandy's bass EQ.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 22, 2010, 04:51:50 PM
Quote from: Daverz on May 22, 2010, 04:45:14 PM
Borrowed this guy from the audio shop for the weekend:

(http://www.balanced.com/products/amp/Vk-55SE/images/VK-55SEFront.jpg)

The BAT VK-55SE, which uses 6H30 tubes.  55 watts, which is plenty for my room.  Really much more than I'd want to pay for an amp, though.  There is a cheaper non-SE version that uses 6922 tubes.  Enjoying the extra demensionality, but the bass seems a bit too warmish.  May be able to mitigate that by adjusting my Vandy's bass EQ.

I have been considering a tube-amp ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 22, 2010, 05:52:53 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 22, 2010, 04:51:50 PM
I have been considering a tube-amp ...

BAT has excellent customer service.  I also like that their non "SE" stuff is designed to work with Electro Harmonix 6922 tubes, which are quiet and relatively cheap current production tubes.  But as to whether their stuff sounds better than the cheap Chinese amps, I can't say.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 22, 2010, 10:01:32 PM
Certainly looks good, though.

But it's not for me, since all of my electronics are hidden except for this little gadget:

(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=20557.0;attach=147192;image)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 22, 2010, 10:08:04 PM
Quote from: Valentino on May 22, 2010, 10:01:32 PM
this little gadget:

That's my source for 99% of listening these days, with the coaxial out feeding the DAC in a Cambridge Audio 840C, and controlled by an iPod Touch with the iPeng app.  I feel guilty about my turntable sitting idle so much, partly because I'm too lazy to clean records.

The funny thing is that I use the blank screensaver and never use the touch interface.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: snyprrr on May 28, 2010, 09:14:25 AM
For what it's worth, I've alwaaaaaays listened to cheap boomboxes and hand-me-down stereos. :o Yes, I'm sure I don't know what I'm missing!

And, iIf you think that's shocking you should see my SocialSecurityStatement, haha!! ::)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 29, 2010, 11:04:10 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 28, 2010, 09:14:25 AM
For what it's worth, I've alwaaaaaays listened to cheap boomboxes and hand-me-down stereos. :o Yes, I'm sure I don't know what I'm missing!

And, iIf you think that's shocking you should see my SocialSecurityStatement, haha!! ::)

Karajan and the BPO may not sound as good on a boombox, but it is still good music.  Multiple big rigs in a home, as in my case, do have their drawback - they take up a lot of room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 29, 2010, 04:38:19 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 28, 2010, 09:14:25 AM
For what it's worth, I've alwaaaaaays listened to cheap boomboxes and hand-me-down stereos. :o Yes, I'm sure I don't know what I'm missing!

And, iIf you think that's shocking you should see my SocialSecurityStatement, haha!! ::)

Snyprrr - as my son use to say as a boy, are you speaking true?   ;) ;D

I listen to a LOT of my new acquisitions on the 'boombox' in my office or on a portable CD player (an old Sony) on the road, but I must say that the difference on my den stereo system (and relatively inexpensive) is substantial - I usually don't offer an opinion until hearing a disc the standard way?  But, just my opinion - Dave  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 29, 2010, 05:25:26 PM
I sometimes find myself enjoying music more in the car than I do at home where I often want to tweak and fuss about with things.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 29, 2010, 05:47:19 PM
Quote from: Daverz on May 29, 2010, 05:25:26 PM
I sometimes find myself enjoying music more in the car than I do at home where I often want to tweak and fuss about with things.

Dave - LOL!  ;D  We take a LOT of car trips but I usually bring along non-classical music; the speed and road noise just warrants a limited dynamics for me at least - classical music just varies so much in its dynamic range that I cannot enjoy - a recent example was a trip to Charleston, SC - took along about 8 discs from the box shown below, which I absolutely love in my den, but on the road, just not as fun?  I guess that if I could 'rip' music off a classical CD w/ a more compressed dynamic range that an 'in car' experience would be fine?  Dave  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartVeghSerenades/868742946_Wu5g4-O.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 29, 2010, 06:00:15 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 29, 2010, 04:38:19 PM
Snyprrr - as my son use to say as a boy, are you speaking true?   ;) ;D

I listen to a LOT of my new acquisitions on the 'boombox' in my office or on a portable CD player (an old Sony) on the road, but I must say that the difference on my den stereo system (and relatively inexpensive) is substantial - I usually don't offer an opinion until hearing a disc the standard way?  But, just my opinion - Dave  :)

On a long road trip, I usually bring along such recordings as Ride of the Valkyries - the heavy duty Wagnerian overtures, 1812 Overture, etc. so I can blast the music since I am usually the one who ends up driving.    ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 29, 2010, 06:12:16 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 29, 2010, 06:00:15 PM
On a long road trip, I usually bring along such recordings as Ride of the Valkyries - the heavy duty Wagnerian overtures, 1812 Overture, etc. so I can blast the music since I am usually the one who ends up driving.    ;D

Stuart - when Harpo & I travel, I'm the driver always, i.e. want to get to the destination ASAP!  ;D

Well, we must agree on the 'car' music, so over the years, I've ripped a bunch of CD-Rs of music that is agreeable to both of us, and usually not classical - some country & a lot of popular music from our past (e.g. Simon & Garfunkel, Bob Dylan, Judy Collins, Mel Torme, Amanda McBroom, et al) - Mel is one of her favorite singers - plus, a CR-R can hold up to 70 mins or more from multiple CDS, so pick your favs!  Road 'peace' w/ the wife is the best solution for me -  ;)   :D  Dave 
Title: Does Music Sound Different in the Car?
Post by: snyprrr on May 29, 2010, 10:37:39 PM
I'm doing most of the listening on the road right now, and, I've noticed that the first benefit is that I actually listen to the music! In front of the computer or muted TV, or whatever else, I won't be able to concentrate; but, in the car, somehow (haha) I'm compelled.

I'll be like,... huh, never heard that before...

Plus, I'm always waiting for a storm to break out the Pettersson!! 8) Driving in the rain to Pettersson, hahah, ahhhh....
Title: Re: Does Music Sound Different in the Car?
Post by: greg on May 30, 2010, 05:29:20 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 29, 2010, 10:37:39 PM
Plus, I'm always waiting for a storm to break out the Pettersson!! 8) Driving in the rain to Pettersson, hahah, ahhhh....
Nice.  :D
Even better, an extremely gray day with a tornado in the distance.
Title: Re: Does Music Sound Different in the Car?
Post by: Scarpia on May 30, 2010, 05:32:21 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 29, 2010, 10:37:39 PM
I'm doing most of the listening on the road right now, and, I've noticed that the first benefit is that I actually listen to the music! In front of the computer or muted TV, or whatever else, I won't be able to concentrate; but, in the car, somehow (haha) I'm compelled.

You never considered listening to music without the computer or muted TV?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on May 30, 2010, 09:22:56 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 29, 2010, 05:47:19 PM
I guess that if I could 'rip' music off a classical CD w/ a more compressed dynamic range that an 'in car' experience would be fine?  Dave  :)

I've actually experimented with this Dave and YES!  I found that if you rip your cd to wav, and then fire up audacity, normalize the volume and them compress the dynamic range by 2:1 (radios usually use 10:1) it will sound audibly louder without too much of a compromise of audio quality for the car.  Now you can then burn on a cd or encode the new wavs to mp3, up to you.  But that radio-fy technique works, seriously give it a try. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 30, 2010, 10:54:49 AM
Quote from: DavidW on May 30, 2010, 09:22:56 AM
I've actually experimented with this Dave and YES!  I found that if you rip your cd to wav, and then fire up audacity, normalize the volume and them compress the dynamic range by 2:1 (radios usually use 10:1) it will sound audibly louder without too much of a compromise of audio quality for the car.  Now you can then burn on a cd or encode the new wavs to mp3, up to you.  But that radio-fy technique works, seriously give it a try. :)

       I think that's a really good idea. Some portable players might have decent limiter settings, so you wouldn't even have to mod the files. But if not you could make up a library of music fine-tuned to sound good in your car, then either burn to disc or load into your portable and run through the aux port.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 30, 2010, 01:02:18 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 29, 2010, 05:47:19 PM
the speed and road noise just warrants a limited dynamics for me

I just listen to the radio in the car, usually KPBS or KUSC when I can pick it up.  It's already compressed, and it's nice to have someone else choosing the music.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 10, 2010, 08:14:36 AM
Yahoooo!  Blu-ray operas and music here I come!

My new HDTV and Blu-ray system is diagrammed below. (The speakers I've had for a while but the other stuff is new.)

Very unfortunately this system doesn't provide for SACD of DVD-A playback, so further upgrades might be forthcoming.

(http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/Feanor_HTSystem.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on June 10, 2010, 10:36:14 AM
Congrats, hope you get many many hours of enjoyment on it!

I don't really care about video or surround (that's why my system is strictly stereo--and very, very good at it) but I can relate to the utter satisfaction of piecing all components together and getting to "that" place where you can lose yourself in the music, with or without visuals.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 10, 2010, 11:27:01 AM
Quote from: petrArch on June 10, 2010, 10:36:14 AM
Congrats, hope you get many many hours of enjoyment on it!

I don't really care about video or surround (that's why my system is strictly stereo--and very, very good at it) but I can relate to the utter satisfaction of piecing all components together and getting to "that" place where you can lose yourself in the music, with or without visuals.
Thank you and it's a magnificent stereo system you have indeed, petrArch.  I'm envious, (although my own stereo setup is more than decent; see the link below).

Multi-channel should cannot be easily dismissed.  Given equivalent equipment quality, precise setup, and, needless to say, very good recordings, it will do what stereo simply cannot by way of reproducing a convincing concert hall ambience.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on June 10, 2010, 11:31:54 AM
Quote from: Feanor on June 10, 2010, 11:27:01 AMMulti-channel should cannot be easily dismissed.  Given equivalent equipment quality, precise setup, and, needless to say, very good recordings, it will do what stereo simply cannot by way of reproducing a convincing concert hall ambience.

I generally agree, although the superiority of surround is by no means to be taken for granted.  Some of the Chandos recordings (I'm thinking of Hickox/Vaughan Williams) I have heard strike me as more diffuse and less satisfactory than stereo versions.  But there are others, like the Janowski/Brahms on Pentatone, are breathtaking in their realism.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 10, 2010, 11:32:34 AM
I've heard great things about that Panasonic S2 Feonor, I hope that you enjoy it. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on June 10, 2010, 12:00:42 PM
Quote from: Feanor on June 10, 2010, 11:27:01 AM
Thank you and it's a magnificent stereo system you have indeed, petrArch.  I'm envious, (although my own stereo setup is more than decent; see the link below).

Yes, it is a more than decent system indeed. Although nothing really beats big, huge panels ;). Unfortunately the sound of Maggies never really did it for me, and I really tried to like the 20.1.

Quote from: Feanor on June 10, 2010, 11:27:01 AMMulti-channel should cannot be easily dismissed.  Given equivalent equipment quality, precise setup, and, needless to say, very good recordings, it will do what stereo simply cannot by way of reproducing a convincing concert hall ambience.

That is partly true, as you can more easily get it with surround sound. But I can tell you I get a convincing concert hall ambience with my system (and that is by no means exclusive or unique to it, as I also got it on past auditions of other components at certain dealers). It's all about the room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 10, 2010, 12:53:19 PM
Quote from: Feanor on June 10, 2010, 08:14:36 AM
Yahoooo!  Blu-ray operas and music here I come!

My new HDTV and Blu-ray system is diagrammed below. (The speakers I've had for a while but the other stuff is new.)

Very unfortunately this system doesn't provide for SACD of DVD-A playback, so further upgrades might be forthcoming.

(http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/Feanor_HTSystem.jpg)

     What do you think of the Onkyo? Is it powerful enough? Does it process audio for everything?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 10, 2010, 03:23:07 PM
Quote from: drogulus on June 10, 2010, 12:53:19 PM
     What do you think of the Onkyo? Is it powerful enough? Does it process audio for everything?
So far I feel that the Onkyo is quite adequate for power -- and I love the Audyssey automated equalization & time correction system: fantastic!  Yes it does the audio for everything, although the way I set things up, it's possible to listen to TV sound from the TV without firing up the receiver.

You can check out the Onkyo 508's specs HERE (http://www.onkyo.ca/model.cfm?m=TX-SR508&class=Receiver&p=i).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 11, 2010, 12:38:41 PM
Quote from: Feanor on June 10, 2010, 03:23:07 PM
So far I feel that the Onkyo is quite adequate for power -- and I love the Audyssey automated equalization & time correction system: fantastic!  Yes it does the audio for everything, although the way I set things up, it's possible to listen to TV sound from the TV without firing up the receiver.

You can check out the Onkyo 508's specs HERE (http://www.onkyo.ca/model.cfm?m=TX-SR508&class=Receiver&p=i).

      Thanks, Feanor, I'm thinking about the 308 for my tiny living room. I don't need much power, just the features.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 11, 2010, 02:24:08 PM
Quote from: drogulus on June 11, 2010, 12:38:41 PM
      Thanks, Feanor, I'm thinking about the 308 for my tiny living room. I don't need much power, just the features.

I have that or the 307.  Only need 5.1, it can't do much with hdmi but pass through but that's all I need.  It has audyssey but I find that it does not give accurate results especially with bass.  I just manually tweak it with an spl meter and test tones.

Anyway it's very easy to use (unlike Denon) with great sound, even if it doesn't have a fraction of what a Denon receiver at the same price would offer. :) (my Onkyo replaced a Denon)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 11, 2010, 04:24:43 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 11, 2010, 02:24:08 PM
I have that or the 307.  Only need 5.1, it can't do much with hdmi but pass through but that's all I need.  It has audyssey but I find that it does not give accurate results especially with bass.  I just manually tweak it with an spl meter and test tones.

Anyway it's very easy to use (unlike Denon) with great sound, even if it doesn't have a fraction of what a Denon receiver at the same price would offer. :) (my Onkyo replaced a Denon)

     The 308 does audio, including high rez BD audio. This is something new. In the past you had to read the fine print to find out just where processing starts and pass-thru only leaves off.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on June 11, 2010, 05:26:50 PM
I have been thinking about setting up a 3.0 semi surround, i.e. FL, FR, center and forget the sub and the rear channel to conserve space.  I have 3 doxies at the house who run around and there is little chance that one of them would not knock the rear channel speakers off their stands.  That way, I can at least listen to 3 of the channels on my approximately 250 SACD's.  I will get a 5.1 or 7.1 HT processor and press 2 of my spare power amps in service and one of them can be bridged for the center channel.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 12, 2010, 03:19:31 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 11, 2010, 02:24:08 PM
I have that or the 307.  Only need 5.1, it can't do much with hdmi but pass through but that's all I need.  It has audyssey but I find that it does not give accurate results especially with bass.  I just manually tweak it with an spl meter and test tones.

...
I can believe that you might have a bass problem.  As I understand, bass can be difficult to measure in that different locations in a room can give widely different results.  In my own case I believe a little less bass would be a good thing;  if I decide to reduce it a bit, I'll just dial it back on the subwoofer itself rather than meddle with the receiver's equalization settings.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 12, 2010, 03:58:00 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on June 11, 2010, 05:26:50 PM
I have been thinking about setting up a 3.0 semi surround, i.e. FL, FR, center and forget the sub and the rear channel to conserve space.  I have 3 doxies at the house who run around and there is little chance that one of them would not knock the rear channel speakers off their stands.  That way, I can at least listen to 3 of the channels on my approximately 250 SACD's.  I will get a 5.1 or 7.1 HT processor and press 2 of my spare power amps in service and one of them can be bridged for the center channel.

     I wouldn't get a processor, it's a huge expense. Get a good receiver with pre-outs. You can get a Marantz 4002 for less than $300. (http://www.accessories4less.com/index.php?page=item&id=MARSR4002) The only thing it's missing is HD audio from BD, insignificant in my view. With external power amps this would be a monster setup.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on June 12, 2010, 04:03:49 AM
Quote from: Feanor on June 12, 2010, 03:19:31 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 11, 2010, 02:24:08 PM
I have that or the 307.  Only need 5.1, it can't do much with hdmi but pass through but that's all I need.  It has audyssey but I find that it does not give accurate results especially with bass.  I just manually tweak it with an spl meter and test tones.

I can believe that you might have a bass problem.  As I understand, bass can be difficult to measure in that different locations in a room can give widely different results.  In my own case I believe a little less bass would be a good thing;  if I decide to reduce it a bit, I'll just dial it back on the subwoofer itself rather than meddle with the receiver's equalization settings.

Yes, bass can vary quite a bit in a room. Just read up on bass modes (roughly, those frequencies whose wavelengths correspond to multiples of the room dimensions will stand out) and perhaps consider some bass traps (there are various types, some can be discreet and not at all imposing). I had to get a few bass traps in my own room when I moved from a hybrid electrostatic speaker with a cone woofer to a full range one and the results are very good. Untreated bass can skew the perceived frequency response of a system and totally muddy the sound.

Another quick test is basically to move your listening position or simply your ears a couple of feet forward, backward, upward or downward and see if the tonal balance changes. If it does, it means you have standing waves in your room and it is a sign that some treatment is in order.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on June 12, 2010, 04:34:49 AM
Quote from: drogulus on June 12, 2010, 03:58:00 AM
     I wouldn't get a processor, it's a huge expense. Get a good receiver with pre-outs. You can get a Marantz 4002 for less than $300. (http://www.accessories4less.com/index.php?page=item&id=MARSR4002) The only thing it's missing is HD audio from BD, insignificant in my view. With external power amps this would be a monster setup.

I am really not into those bass-heavy action movies, which can only be fully appreciated via a full surround sound.  I am not averse to a sub but it has to have a small foot-print.  With 5 stereo systems set up around the house, I should not be taking up more space or I will get some serious gripe from my wife.

Not sure if you have heard of Emotiva, a relatively new audio company that only sells through the internet that has garnered some praises from another forum that is a bit more audio heavy than GMG.  It seems to have a much more reasonably priced HT processor.  The only reason for me to go semi-surround is to fully appreciate my collection of hybrid SACD's - fast approaching 300.  For now, I do not even have an SACD player ...  LOL (http://emotiva.com/)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 12, 2010, 04:03:03 PM
     
     Yes, I know Emotiva. I'd stick with a receiver. It will do the 3 channel thing very well. I looked at the users manual for the Marantz and you can set it up any way you want.

     I wasn't thinking about movies particularly. I use a 2.1 system for everything, movies and music with the balances set to favor music (which works well for movies, too).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on June 12, 2010, 08:11:52 PM
Quote from: drogulus on June 12, 2010, 04:03:03 PM
     
     Yes, I know Emotiva. I'd stick with a receiver. It will do the 3 channel thing very well. I looked at the users manual for the Marantz and you can set it up any way you want.

     I wasn't thinking about movies particularly. I use a 2.1 system for everything, movies and music with the balances set to favor music (which works well for movies, too).

You seem to think the HT processor portion of a Marantz HT receiver is better than what Emotiva has to offer.  But then I really do not need the amp.  My separate amps are probably better than the amp that comes with the Marantz receiver.  Besides, Emotiva HT processor is relatively inexpensive compared with most other processors on the market ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 13, 2010, 07:05:59 PM
Quote from: petrArch on June 12, 2010, 04:03:49 AM
I can believe that you might have a bass problem.  As I understand, bass can be difficult to measure in that different locations in a room can give widely different results.  In my own case I believe a little less bass would be a good thing;  if I decide to reduce it a bit, I'll just dial it back on the subwoofer itself rather than meddle with the receiver's equalization settings.


Yes, bass can vary quite a bit in a room. Just read up on bass modes (roughly, those frequencies whose wavelengths correspond to multiples of the room dimensions will stand out) and perhaps consider some bass traps (there are various types, some can be discreet and not at all imposing). I had to get a few bass traps in my own room when I moved from a hybrid electrostatic speaker with a cone woofer to a full range one and the results are very good. Untreated bass can skew the perceived frequency response of a system and totally muddy the sound.

Another quick test is basically to move your listening position or simply your ears a couple of feet forward, backward, upward or downward and see if the tonal balance changes. If it does, it means you have standing waves in your room and it is a sign that some treatment is in order.

Boy I'll have to look up info about bass traps!  I had my system sounding muddy with too much bass before, and tinny sounding with not enough.  Getting proper bass response is important but so tricky.  I finally got it right when I used my spl because it now sounds airy.  The midbass was way too much before, and the deep bass was lacking.  Now I have a punch of bass but the dialogue is clear and not easily drowned out. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on June 13, 2010, 09:38:54 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 13, 2010, 07:05:59 PM
Boy I'll have to look up info about bass traps!  I had my system sounding muddy with too much bass before, and tinny sounding with not enough.  Getting proper bass response is important but so tricky.  I finally got it right when I used my spl because it now sounds airy.  The midbass was way too much before, and the deep bass was lacking.  Now I have a punch of bass but the dialogue is clear and not easily drowned out. :)

The free Room EQ Wizard (http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/) program has a real time analyzer that is very helpful for finding the best position for speakers.  This shows frequency response in real time, so you can watch how it changes as you move the speakers around the room (if you use spikes, it helps to take them off for this purpose.)  I use it with an old analog Radio Shack SPL meter.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 14, 2010, 08:18:58 AM
Oh neato!  I'll have to use that! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 16, 2010, 03:17:57 PM
     I found a good way to balance your subwoofer sound.

     1) Place your sub at the listening position.

     2) Play a bass eq loop (btwn. 20-200 Hz).

     3) Sit at several points around the periphery where a sub might be located. (use a stool or folding chair).

     4) When you find the point where the sonic balance is best (deep and smooth)....

     5) Put the sub there! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/police.gif)

      Now you will have better results balancing the sub with the other speakers because you will have removed the worst bumps and nulls.

      I've never tried this, but it sure sounds like it would be worth trying. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 04:20:38 PM
What do you folks rec. for a flat panel?  Small room (12'x12') and the tv is on its stand on a table so if we get a sound bar, I do not believe it will fit beneath.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 05:15:31 PM
Sorry about that.  I meant a sound system for a flat panel for a room that size, David.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 16, 2010, 05:18:15 PM
Woops deleted then. :)

Are you thinking of 5.1?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 05:22:56 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 16, 2010, 05:18:15 PM
Woops deleted then. :)

Are you thinking of 5.1?

(http://blog.servicemagic.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/mr-mom.jpg)

5.1....5.2.....whatever it takes. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 16, 2010, 05:25:41 PM
Thought so you need a place for that center channel then.  I think you need to think about replacing that table with an entertainment stand, either that or the speaker goes to the side of the tv.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 05:29:23 PM
It does have two cabinets that open in the center and wiring holes in the back.  That may fit the center speaker. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 05:31:42 PM
I wonder how this works?

http://ployer.com/archives/2005/06/samsung-htp1200.php
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 05:37:20 PM
Maybe this, then:


http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/home_theater/21channel_systems/cinemate_systems/cinemate_gs_series2/index.jsp
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 16, 2010, 05:38:01 PM
Try Home Theater Mag's list-- http://www.hometheatermag.com/buyersguides/htibs/ (http://www.hometheatermag.com/buyersguides/htibs/)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 06:29:22 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 16, 2010, 05:38:01 PM
Try Home Theater Mag's list-- http://www.hometheatermag.com/buyersguides/htibs/ (http://www.hometheatermag.com/buyersguides/htibs/)

Look out!

http://hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/revel_ultima2_salon2_speaker_system/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on June 16, 2010, 06:45:14 PM
Classic, Bill!!!  ;D  :D  ;D


(The Mr. Mom reference. Love that movie!!)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 16, 2010, 07:53:49 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 06:29:22 PM
Look out!

http://hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/revel_ultima2_salon2_speaker_system/

;D

I actually have a soft spot for Revel...I've owned a pair of stand-mount speakers from them for about five years now and continue to marvel at their range and clarity.

Classic stuff.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 08:25:51 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 16, 2010, 07:53:49 PM
;D

I actually have a soft spot for Revel...I've owned a pair of stand-mount speakers from them for about five years now and continue to marvel at their range and clarity.

Classic stuff.

Sweet!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 16, 2010, 08:27:08 PM
Ah shucks if Donwyn has one, now I can't make the obligatory "Harry has it in his exercise room" joke! :'(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 16, 2010, 10:18:18 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 16, 2010, 08:27:08 PM
Ah shucks if Donwyn has one, now I can't make the obligatory "Harry has it in his exercise room" joke! :'(

Thanks for sparing me, David. ;D

It's kind of an occupational hazard on this thread to be seen near Harry anyway so I'm already geared up (no pun) for the slam to my psyche. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 17, 2010, 04:20:09 AM
     
     I don't think there's a problem-free solution for the center channel if it's to be used in a hybrid system. Most good centers are side-mounted double woofer versions of the fronts.

     I use an older version of these in my 2.1 system:

     (http://www.psbspeakers.com/Images/Speakers/Alpha1/Alpha_B1.jpg)

     PSB Alpha B1 Monitor

     The matching center speaker is this:

     (http://www.psbspeakers.com//Images/Speakers/Alpha1/Alpha_C1_black.jpg)

     PSB Alpha C1 Center

     In a music only system I'd just use 3 or 4 or 5 Alpha B1s with a sub. It's always preferable to use identical speakers for all channels. But since I would use my system for both music and movies a center speaker that mounts either above or below the monitor would be the only practical choice.

     Something like this might be good:

     (http://www.svsound.com/products/systems/sbs01_familly_300.jpg)

     SVS S-Series SBS-02

     It has the PB10-NSD sub included. For $1,000 you probably can't do much better for a complete 5.1 set. In a small room that sub will be a killer.
     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 06:01:15 AM
Quote from: Daverz on October 30, 2010, 05:56:35 PM
Lyrita is usually excellent.  Get Boult's Bax and Holst discs.

Also EMI, RCA, and Decca recordings from the "Golden Age of Stereo" (late 50s - 60s).   There was an EMI series called Artist Profile that was all Golden Age stuff all excellently transferred.

The problem with this Moeran disc as a test disc s that it always sounds pretty fabulous no matter what.  I use it mainly for hearing what's going on in the midbass.

For more extensive testing, I actually like to use recordings that are kind of marginal in some way, just to see what the equipment does or does not for them.

Brought this quote over fro the listening thread.

Your last part of your quote lined up nicely with what my dad and I believe.  A few weeks back we attende for the third year in a row this:

http://audiofest.net/2010/index.php

Most of the systems start at $50K and move up from there (to $250K, I believe).  Almost everyone was running a pre-amp with two mono amps as well.  What we noticed is that each dealer had certain cds that they played for sampling their system.....ones that sounded the "best" for their equipment.  However, we have learned to bring our own music that we enjoy hearing and seeing what the equipment will do with it.  They are more than happy to play our stuff because they get so tired of listening to what the company recommends.  So your last point is extremely important.  Test what you listen to and bring in a wide range of music to test.

On a side note, we noticed that more than half of the dealers were running downloads from a laptop into their system....this was a huge change from the previous year where it was only a few dealers doing this.  Many discussed that they finally thought that the downloaded music sounded just as good as the cds and even vinyl (nooooooooooooooooo)!  Do you believe this is true, or do you think that they are just trying to get younger buyers to fork over big money for high end stuff?

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on November 06, 2010, 08:37:08 AM

     Yes
Quote from: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 06:01:15 AM
  Do you believe this is true, or do you think that they are just trying to get younger buyers to fork over big money for high end stuff?

     No, I don't think it's true that they finally thought something or they're trying to get young people to buy something. I think they are trying to get young people to buy things on the basis of sound differences they believe exist, the same differences that the downloads on the laptops give the lie to. They think both, or neither, or whatever. I guess you could say they are "accommodationists". I don't think they're lying, they just don't think through that far. Why should they? Life is good, let's not mess it up. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/grin.gif)

    I think this hifi stuff is fun. It doesn't cease to be fun when the magical beliefs are excised.* I'd love to have a big fearsome sound system, and if I had the money I'm sure I'd spend many thousands on it.

     * Or just stop working.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 06, 2010, 09:21:01 AM
Quote from: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 06:01:15 AM
Many discussed that they finally thought that the downloaded music sounded just as good as the cds and even vinyl (nooooooooooooooooo)!  Do you believe this is true, or do you think that they are just trying to get younger buyers to fork over big money for high end stuff?

Downloaded music can definitely sound as good or better than CD or vinyl. Get a good hi-res non-lossy well-recorded download, play it through a streamer and DAC that can handle the sample rate and bit depth and off you go. That said, a good high-end CD player or turntable will still have a marginal advantage if the rest of your system is good enough and you care for that extra level of quality, though it is totally in the realm of diminishing returns.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 10:08:26 AM
 ;D

Any-who, another of the vendors also discussed how nice it was to switch tracks quickly for folks popping in and out of the rooms (150+) in order to accommodate their tastes more easily....however, not much rock and roll played unless you brought it with you.

Oh, and just a side note:  One of the dealers discussed how their system was upgraded with the $2,000 set of cables that they were using.  These things looked like pythons coming out of the back....along with the ceramic holders that lifted the cables off of the ground. >:D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 06, 2010, 10:43:39 AM
Quote from: petrArch on November 06, 2010, 09:21:01 AM
Downloaded music can definitely sound as good or better than CD or vinyl.

Indeed, though people generally download MP3 quality files. If they get some nice lossless files, they can sound at least as good as the original CD. I know mastering engineers who have told me that the ripped files sound closer to the master tape than the CD.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on November 06, 2010, 12:15:04 PM
   
Quote from: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 10:08:26 AM

Oh, and just a side note:  One of the dealers discussed how their system was upgraded with the $2,000 set of cables that they were using.  These things looked like pythons coming out of the back....along with the ceramic holders that lifted the cables off of the ground. >:D

     I'd have little suspension bridges with miniature depressed people jumping off into a lake with tiny robot fish. How good would that sound? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 12:28:47 PM
Quote from: drogulus on November 06, 2010, 12:15:04 PM
   
     I'd have little suspension bridges with miniature depressed people jumping off into a lake with tiny robot fish. How good would that sound? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif)

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:gvYf3EOrv2Bg8M:http://image18.webshots.com/19/2/68/17/196126817QEgYub_ph.jpg)

I knew this would reel you in!  :D  Some of the rooms had systems at the high end, but they were not representing the components, just the cables.  Robots are cool....they did not have any of those.  Maybe next year. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on November 06, 2010, 12:56:47 PM


     Yeah, that side note did it. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 06, 2010, 01:18:10 PM
Quote from: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 10:08:26 AM
;D

Any-who, another of the vendors also discussed how nice it was to switch tracks quickly for folks popping in and out of the rooms (150+) in order to accommodate their tastes more easily....however, not much rock and roll played unless you brought it with you.

Oh, and just a side note:  One of the dealers discussed how their system was upgraded with the $2,000 set of cables that they were using.  These things looked like pythons coming out of the back....along with the ceramic holders that lifted the cables off of the ground. >:D

Those who sell $2K audio cables are snake oil salesmen IMO ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 06, 2010, 01:25:40 PM
Quote from: dtwilbanks on May 24, 2007, 01:02:23 PM
iPod/Computer/Vehicle

I have a home stereo but never use it.  Maybe because it's in the same room as the TV.  ;D

Kill your TV!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 06, 2010, 01:36:45 PM
I have iNothing ...  Not one Apple product at my house ...    ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 06, 2010, 03:07:26 PM
Quote from: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 10:08:26 AM
Oh, and just a side note:  One of the dealers discussed how their system was upgraded with the $2,000 set of cables that they were using.  These things looked like pythons coming out of the back....along with the ceramic holders that lifted the cables off of the ground. >:D

My local dealer has similar cables on risers.  I like to tease them about it.  I'm sure it's easy to believe in this stuff when the margins may be keeping the business afloat.  They are using them, BTW, to hook up some PSB Synchrony Ones to a huge BAT amp.  The speakers sound fantastic.  Makes me wish I'd given the Synchrony Ones more consideration.  As much as I love my Vandies, I sometimes wish for a less fussy speaker.

I am using some "audiophile" speaker cables in my own system.  They are the cheapest Audioquest Slate cables terminated by Audio Advisor.  I thought I did hear an improvement, but if real, it may have been because of my crimping and soldering job and the terminators I chose.  If I move my amp, I'll probably go back to making my own cables rather than buy longer runs of Slate.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 06, 2010, 05:54:01 PM
Quote from: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 10:08:26 AM
along with the ceramic holders that lifted the cables off of the ground. >:D

Have you tried lifting your cables off the floor? Depending on the cable it might produce a very noticeable difference. It did on mine, when I just out of curiosity grabbed a dozen CD jewel cases, partly opened the lid and got them on their sides so that they stood vertically and finally laid the cables on top.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on November 06, 2010, 05:59:51 PM
Quote from: petrArch on November 06, 2010, 05:54:01 PM
Have you tried lifting your cables off the floor? Depending on the cable it might produce a very noticeable difference. It did on mine, when I just out of curiosity grabbed a dozen CD jewel cases, partly opened the lid and got them on their sides so that they stood vertically and finally laid the cables on top.

And what conceivable physical mechanism is there for this?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 06, 2010, 06:03:52 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 06, 2010, 05:59:51 PM
And what conceivable physical mechanism is there for this?

It all depends on how isolating the outer jacket of the cable is. Some cables are designed with little or no isolation.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 06:34:37 PM
I have not lifted mine.  Thir cost is less than your empty cd cases. 8)


Ok.  Next question.  Where do you fall on speaker spikes?

(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk197/sac8d4/GRResearchBrassSpeakerSpikesM8.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on November 06, 2010, 06:59:58 PM
Quote from: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 06:34:37 PM

Ok.  Next question.  Where do you fall on speaker spikes?

(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk197/sac8d4/GRResearchBrassSpeakerSpikesM8.jpg)

     Tower of London?

     (http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/ejszaka/art/imag/German%20Inquisitors%20Question%20a%20Suspected%20Witch%20While%20the%20Instruments%20of%20Torture%20are%20Prepared.jpeg)

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 06, 2010, 07:07:53 PM
Quote from: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 06:34:37 PM
I have not lifted mine.  Thir cost is less than your empty cd cases. 8)

Ok.  Next question.  Where do you fall on speaker spikes?

(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk197/sac8d4/GRResearchBrassSpeakerSpikesM8.jpg)

I noticed a difference when moving from non-spiked feet to spikes when I had a pair of Martin Logan Vantages. They ship with both types of feet, the non-spiked ones to be used until the final position of the speakers in the room is found. I was also using a slab of polished granite under each speaker.

Nowadays I don't use spikes on my speakers because their bases were not designed with spikes in mind, and the speakers are too big and too heavy for an improvised solution.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 06, 2010, 07:10:15 PM
Quote from: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 06:34:37 PM
I have not lifted mine.  Thir cost is less than your empty cd cases. 8)


Ok.  Next question.  Where do you fall on speaker spikes?

(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk197/sac8d4/GRResearchBrassSpeakerSpikesM8.jpg)

I just go for those supplied by the speaker manufacturer.  If your listening area is carpeted, your speakers must have spikes or your bass will be muffled IMO ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 06, 2010, 07:14:39 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on November 06, 2010, 07:10:15 PM
I just go for those supplied by the speaker manufacturer.  If your listening area is carpeted, your speakers must have spikes or your bass will be muffled IMO ...

Definitely, you want to the base of the speakers to clear the carpet.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 06, 2010, 07:17:52 PM
Quote from: Daverz on November 06, 2010, 07:14:39 PM
Definitely, you want to the base of the speakers to clear the carpet.

But I doubt the kind of metal used to make the spikes should cause any sonic difference, say brass vs. steel.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on November 06, 2010, 07:33:59 PM
Quote from: petrArch on November 06, 2010, 06:03:52 PM
It all depends on how isolating the outer jacket of the cable is. Some cables are designed with little or no isolation.

Isolation from what?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 06, 2010, 07:40:42 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 06, 2010, 07:33:59 PM
Isolation from what?

Electrical isolation.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on November 06, 2010, 10:17:20 PM
Quote from: petrArch on November 06, 2010, 07:40:42 PM
Electrical isolation.

10 cent per foot zip cord has all of the electrical isolation that could possible be required.  Lifting the cable off the floor would provide an extra one part in a billion isolation.  Does someone claim they can hear that???
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 07, 2010, 12:21:01 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 06, 2010, 10:17:20 PM
Lifting the cable off the floor would provide an extra one part in a billion isolation.

A very good example of pulling numbers off your arse!

Quote from: Scarpia on November 06, 2010, 10:17:20 PM
Does someone claim they can hear that???

I hear it. My wife heard it without noticing what was done. All anecdotal evidence, but I couldn't care less.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 07, 2010, 12:35:06 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 06, 2010, 10:17:20 PM
Does someone claim they can hear that???

And while we're at it, I can hear differences in speaker cables, interconnects and (blimey!) power cables. Disclaimer: More expensive does not imply better.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 03:59:36 AM
Quote from: Daverz on November 06, 2010, 07:14:39 PM
Definitely, you want to the base of the speakers to clear the carpet.

My speakers actually have little feet to keep the base off of the ground.  Bill if you don't have feet on your speakers, those little spikes are a good idea. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on November 07, 2010, 04:26:35 AM
Quote from: petrArch on November 07, 2010, 12:21:01 AM
A very good example of pulling numbers off your arse!

No sir, off a digital volt meter.  Many times I have used a DVM to check continuity of a circuit.  If you measure the resistance between leads of a lamp cord you will read "infinity" on you meter, meaning it is over a billion Ohms.  Your speaker is 8 Ohms, maybe as low as 4 Ohms.  That means for every amp going into your speaker, less than in a billionth of an amp is leaking through the insulator.  If you have your cable on the floor, there may be another 1 part in a billion that can get to the floor.  If you suspend the cable, you eliminate the possible of that 1 part in a billion leaking to the floor.   That's where my number comes from. 

I'm assuming, of course, that your $2000 interconnect is as well insulated as 10 cent per foot lamp chord.  That may be an incorrect assumption, however.  Probably the deliberately leave the insulation off so they can selll you the cable suspenders for $100 each.   ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 07, 2010, 04:37:43 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 07, 2010, 04:26:35 AM
I'm assuming, of course, that your $2000 interconnect is as well insulated as 10 cent per foot lamp chord.  That may be an incorrect assumption, however.  Probably the deliberately leave the insulation off so they can selll you the cable suspenders for $100 each.   ;D

And the pulling of numbers continues :D. I really have no idea where you got those from.

Reducing everything to what is measured (and measurable) assumes it provides a complete description of the behavior of the system. I wonder, then, how a lot of equipment and accessories that measures the same can sound so different, or how equipment that measures so much better can sound so much worse.

But whatever, I am not trying to convince anyone. A simple way to try whether it works on one's system is to do what I described. Doesn't come cheaper than that.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on November 07, 2010, 04:57:58 AM
Quote from: petrArch on November 07, 2010, 04:37:43 AM
And the pulling of numbers continues :D. I really have no idea where you got those from.

I measured them with suitable equipment.

Quote
Reducing everything to what is measured (and measurable) assumes it provides a complete description of the behavior of the system. I wonder, then, how a lot of equipment and accessories that measures the same can sound so different, or how equipment that measures so much better can sound so much worse.

Measurements made by the manufacturer are not measurements, they are advertising propaganda.  Measurements you have made yourself are measurements.

I have certainly confirmed this in listening.  When I first installed my speakers, before I decided where I wanted them I had them connected through entire 50 foot lengths of zip chord.  When I decided where they would go, I cut I trimmed the cable to the required length, about 5 feet.   Sounded identical.  If 50 feet sounds the same as 5 feet of the same cable, then the cable has no influence on sound.  I did hear subtle but noticeable differences playing the same CD on a different CD player, or using a different model power amplifier (NAD 2140 vs NAD 2200, vs Sony STR-DA2ES)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 07, 2010, 06:09:18 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 03:59:36 AM
My speakers actually have little feet to keep the base off of the ground.  Bill if you don't have feet on your speakers, those little spikes are a good idea. :)

What if the speakers are on stands?

The stands are on a concrete floor, covered by linoleum. I have four rubber feet under each stand and also some rubber foam between each speaker and stand.

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1070/stereocomplete.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on November 07, 2010, 06:15:56 AM
Quote from: petrArch on November 07, 2010, 12:21:01 AM


I hear it. My wife heard it without noticing what was done. All anecdotal evidence, but I couldn't care less.

     If you don't care why tell anyone? I saw an anecdotal ghost yesterday, I don't care what you think but you should know. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)

     
QuoteReducing everything to what is measured (and measurable) assumes it provides a complete description of the behavior of the system.

     Isn't that a safe assumption after a century of experience with music recording, amplifier and speaker technologies and 30 years of digital recording and playback? What unmeasured influences need to be taken into account, given what we know about vanishing differences under rigorous testing? Has anecdotal evidence acquired a new authority? How do you know that you're immune to biases that trip up everyone else? That seems like quite a bit not to care about. I don't think I could do that.

    Given the caveat about published specs versus real world performance measurements should match SQ perceptions fairly well under controlled conditions. There are stray biases all over the place that crop up when you "let them in", so to speak. Sometimes I hear a difference when the humidity goes way up. Is there an explanation? I don't know. It might be spurious, it might be the way I feel when everything is sticky. Could it be the difference in sound propagation in heavier air? I don't really have any idea. One thing I won't say, though, is that nothing measurable bears on it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 06:27:37 AM
Quote from: George on November 07, 2010, 06:09:18 AM
What if the speakers are on stands?

The stands are on a concrete floor, covered by linoleum. I have four rubber feet under each stand and also some rubber foam between each speaker and stand.


Well hey that's cool George. :)  I was thinking of towers. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 07, 2010, 06:32:58 AM
Quote from: George on November 07, 2010, 06:09:18 AM
What if the speakers are on stands?

The stands are on a concrete floor, covered by linoleum. I have four rubber feet under each stand and also some rubber foam between each speaker and stand.

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1070/stereocomplete.jpg)

I think the discussion has been primarily focused on floor standers.  Bookshelf or satellite speakers have to go on stands for sure.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 07, 2010, 06:34:30 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on November 07, 2010, 06:32:58 AM
I think the discussion has been primarily focused on floor standers.  Bookshelf or satellite speakers have to go on stands for sure.

Right, I was just curious how important vibration isolation is in the case of stands.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 06:39:38 AM
Quote from: George on November 07, 2010, 06:34:30 AM
Right, I was just curious how important vibration isolation is in the case of stands.

Speaker stands are designed to handle the vibrations well, that's why you spend money on them instead of dropping bookshelves and satellites on a table. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 07, 2010, 06:41:56 AM
Quote from: George on November 07, 2010, 06:34:30 AM
Right, I was just curious how important vibration isolation is in the case of stands.

A few years ago, I picked up a bag of fine sand (the kind that is safe to be used in playpen) at Home Depot to fill up the hollow tubing between the floor and the plate where my bookshelf speaker rests as recommended by the stand manufacturer.  The sand should help dampen the vibration.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 07, 2010, 06:46:20 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 06:39:38 AM
Speaker stands are designed to handle the vibrations well, that's why you spend money on them instead of dropping bookshelves and satellites on a table. :)

Kewl.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 07, 2010, 02:59:07 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 07, 2010, 04:57:58 AM
I measured them with suitable equipment.

I was talking about the purported $2000 interconnect and $100/ea cable suspenders you said I had.

Quote from: Scarpia on November 07, 2010, 04:57:58 AMMeasurements made by the manufacturer are not measurements, they are advertising propaganda.  Measurements you have made yourself are measurements.

Who said these were measurements made by the manufacturers?

The canonical example is how bad tubes measure in terms of distortion when compared to solid state components. Yet tubes sound better in general. I know all about even-harmonic and odd-harmonic distortion, but throwing out a single number like you did doesn't tell the whole story--comparable to asserting this ss amp has 0.0007% distortion, and this tube amp has 1% distortion; therefore the ss amp is better.

Quote from: Scarpia on November 07, 2010, 04:57:58 AMI have certainly confirmed this in listening.  When I first installed my speakers, before I decided where I wanted them I had them connected through entire 50 foot lengths of zip chord.  When I decided where they would go, I cut I trimmed the cable to the required length, about 5 feet.   Sounded identical.  If 50 feet sounds the same as 5 feet of the same cable, then the cable has no influence on sound.  I did hear subtle but noticeable differences playing the same CD on a different CD player, or using a different model power amplifier (NAD 2140 vs NAD 2200, vs Sony STR-DA2ES)

Well, you've confirmed that length makes no difference on zip cord when your source plays music through your amp and speakers. But the fact that you heard a subtle difference with a different amp and source means not all is lost :D. You might still see the light one day.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 07, 2010, 03:22:20 PM
Quote from: drogulus on November 07, 2010, 06:15:56 AM
     If you don't care why tell anyone?

I'm not trying to convince anyone. I merely described an experiment that is cheap to do and, who knows, might provide some results.
     
Quote from: drogulus on November 07, 2010, 06:15:56 AM
Isn't that a safe assumption after a century of experience with music recording, amplifier and speaker technologies and 30 years of digital recording and playback? What unmeasured influences need to be taken into account, given what we know about vanishing differences under rigorous testing? Has anecdotal evidence acquired a new authority? How do you know that you're immune to biases that trip up everyone else? That seems like quite a bit not to care about. I don't think I could do that.

So I gather you are saying everything that is to be discovered and known about analog and digital recording and sound reproduction technologies has been already discovered?

You know, the everyone else in your reasoning is the tell-tale sign of undue generalization. Other people conducted the same experiments and found similar results to mine, so I am pretty sure I am not fantasizing.

What I don't care about is to convince other people through argument. Just do it if you are curious to see what you might get. It's an easy experiment. If you don't want to do it, then that's fine, it's your prerogative.

Quote from: drogulus on November 07, 2010, 06:15:56 AMGiven the caveat about published specs versus real world performance measurements should match SQ perceptions fairly well under controlled conditions. There are stray biases all over the place that crop up when you "let them in", so to speak. Sometimes I hear a difference when the humidity goes way up. Is there an explanation? I don't know. It might be spurious, it might be the way I feel when everything is sticky. Could it be the difference in sound propagation in heavier air? I don't really have any idea. One thing I won't say, though, is that nothing measurable bears on it.

My point with what is measurable was simply to say that the usual reductionist view that equipment x is a 0.01 and equipment y is a 0.02 therefore one is better than the other. Better at what? Clearly at that particular quantity it seems, because there are other behaviors (or other numbers) that cannot possibly be encoded or represented by that performance metric alone.

Scarpia was saying "I measured resistance on the cord and obtained result x therefore I assert y in all circumstances". Well, what about inductance and capacitance? What about the behavior with a signal at 50 Hz going through it? And 500 Hz? And 5000 Hz? And 15000 Hz? And all values in-between? And in a high-RF environment?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 07, 2010, 04:50:34 PM
Quote from: George on November 07, 2010, 06:09:18 AM
What if the speakers are on stands?

The stands are on a concrete floor, covered by linoleum. I have four rubber feet under each stand and also some rubber foam between each speaker and stand.

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1070/stereocomplete.jpg)

I'd worry more about the untreated first reflection points on the wall behind the speakers (pretty much the areas to the left and right of the kitchen entrance) and the floor.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 07, 2010, 04:56:19 PM
Quote from: Daverz on November 07, 2010, 04:50:34 PM
I'd worry more about the untreated first reflection points on the wall behind the speakers (pretty much the areas to the left and right of the kitchen entrance) and the floor.

There's a rug on the floor that is just out of view in that photo.

How would you treat the wall behind the speakers? BTW, the ports are aimed so that they fire all the way back to the wall.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 07, 2010, 07:45:10 PM
Quote from: George on November 07, 2010, 04:56:19 PM
How would you treat the wall behind the speakers?

Two 4'x2'x4" ATS Acoustics (http://www.atsacoustics.com/) panels.  They also have materials for DIYers. 

Quote
BTW, the ports are aimed so that they fire all the way back to the wall.

You're speakers are far enough out from the wall that the rear firing ports shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 08, 2010, 02:24:38 AM
Quote from: Daverz on November 07, 2010, 07:45:10 PM
Two 4'x2'x4" ATS Acoustics (http://www.atsacoustics.com/) panels.  They also have materials for DIYers. 

Thanks. Can you tell me what the panels will do for the sound?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 08, 2010, 03:55:16 AM
Quote from: George on November 08, 2010, 02:24:38 AM
Thanks. Can you tell me what the panels will do for the sound?

They will provide some absorption of midrange frequencies. I wouldn't worry that much about covering the walls with such panels. The rest of the wall has irregular furniture and the rug you said you have should be enough to mitigate the problem of bare walls and too live a room. You can do a quick check by hanging a curtain or some heavy cloth like a rug and see if that makes a difference. It might actually deaden the sound a bit too much. If that is the case, you can improve matters by using diffusers, either by getting specialized panels for that (not absorbers) or some dense plants.

In my case, I found that absorption panels on the walls behind the speakers are actually detrimental to the overall airiness and sense of space of the sound--and they are planar (dipoles), so they radiate as much energy forward as they do backward.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 08, 2010, 03:57:26 AM
 Thanks petrArch!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 08, 2010, 01:22:43 PM
Quote from: George on November 08, 2010, 02:24:38 AM
Thanks. Can you tell me what the panels will do for the sound?

Treating the front wall first reflection points can improve image specificity.  I would at least move the TV rack away from that position.


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 08, 2010, 02:51:10 PM
Quote from: Daverz on November 08, 2010, 01:22:43 PM
Treating the front wall first reflection points can improve image specificity.  I would at least move the TV rack away from that position.

The picture doesn't show it well, but the speaker front extends just past the front of the TV/Stereo rack.

I plan to get something shorter and less deep in the future, though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 08, 2010, 03:26:31 PM
Quote from: George on November 08, 2010, 02:51:10 PM
The picture doesn't show it well, but the speaker front extends just past the front of the TV/Stereo rack.

I plan to get something shorter and less deep in the future, though.

That close it is probably skewing the soundstage.  I think if you move the equipment and CD racks you'll notice a difference.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 08, 2010, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: Daverz on November 08, 2010, 03:26:31 PM
That close it is probably skewing the soundstage.  I think if you move the equipment and CD racks you'll notice a difference.

Unfortunately I have no space. I can only get a smaller, less deep rack to get the TV and stereo lower and closer to the wall.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 08, 2010, 04:21:03 PM
Quote from: George on November 08, 2010, 03:46:39 PM
Unfortunately I have no space. I can only get a smaller, less deep rack to get the TV and stereo lower and closer to the wall.

I understand that, having lived in small apartments/studios.  If you still want to get the best out of the system, careful speaker placement is more effective than any other change you can make.  You might try arranging things along a different wall.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 08, 2010, 04:30:03 PM
Quote from: Daverz on November 08, 2010, 04:21:03 PM
I understand that, having lived in small apartments/studios.  If you still want to get the best out of the system, careful speaker placement is more effective than any other change you can make.  You might try arranging things along a different wall.

Thanks, but one wall is a closet and the front door, another is all windows and the other one is CD shelving, floor to ceiling.  :-\  I'm in a studio apartment.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 08, 2010, 05:53:07 PM
Quote from: George on November 08, 2010, 04:30:03 PM
the other one is CD shelving, floor to ceiling.

Aha!  Nothing some hefty bags and trip to the dump can't cure.   8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 08, 2010, 06:07:28 PM
Quote from: Daverz on November 08, 2010, 05:53:07 PM
Aha!  Nothing some hefty bags and trip to the dump can't cure.   8)

No way, Jose.  :P
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on June 07, 2011, 03:36:22 AM


  Hello all,

  I would like to know how frequently everyone here upgrades their audio system?  What do you do with the existing one you have? Is it easy to sell a used stereo system?

  I can't help but feel that my current audio system (Monitor Audio BR1 speakers with a Denon RCD-M38DAB CD Receiver) is lacking in some way.  I would like to get more out of my Verdi/Wagner operas so I have been looking at floor standing speakers/amplifiers/cd players.   

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on June 07, 2011, 05:45:23 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 07, 2011, 03:36:22 AM
Is it easy to sell a used stereo system?

Check audiogon. I'm not planning to upgrade my system any time soon, though the next component in it I would upgrade would be the amp (to a pair of monoblocks, and probably tube).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on June 07, 2011, 08:27:48 AM
I don't sell stuff, so it tends to accumulate.  The only exception is the stuff my dealer took in trade for an upgrade.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on June 07, 2011, 01:22:46 PM
Quote from: petrarch on June 07, 2011, 05:45:23 AM
Check audiogon. I'm not planning to upgrade my system any time soon, though the next component in it I would upgrade would be the amp (to a pair of monoblocks, and probably tube).

Thank you for referring me to audiogon! I didn't know speciality sites like this existed for used stereo systems.

I clicked on the link you posted to see your stereo system and I am very impressed with your speakers! They must produce "walls" of sound!

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on June 07, 2011, 01:31:44 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 07, 2011, 03:36:22 AM

  Hello all,

  I would like to know how frequently everyone here upgrades their audio system?  What do you do with the existing one you have? Is it easy to sell a used stereo system?

I've sold unwanted stuff on ebay in the past.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on July 03, 2011, 05:07:20 AM
My new Honda Fit came with an mp3 dock and for the heck of it, I just stuck a cd in the player that was mp3 format and it played perfectly!  Are new cd players for the home like this as well?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: karlhenning on July 03, 2011, 05:17:40 AM
Quote from: Bogey on July 03, 2011, 05:07:20 AM
My new Honda Fit came with an mp3 dock and for the heck of it, I just stuck a cd in the player that was mp3 format and it played perfectly!  Are new cd players for the home like this as well?

My Cambridge Soundworks clock radio does so.  And while I haven't tried it in that capacity, it seems our DVD player does, too (haven't tried, because we've got it just hooked up to the TV, not to any sound system, per se).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on July 03, 2011, 06:15:08 AM
I am considering one of the following three amps/integrated for my home office.

(http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/Assets/Images/Products/MA6300/XL_MA6300_D.jpg)

(http://www.audioresearch.com/images/m/vs115.jpg)

(http://www.spearitsound.com/cj/cj_images/LP70S.jpg)

as my current CJ MF-2500A 250 watts/ch power amp is too powerful for a 10 x 10 room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on July 03, 2011, 06:34:45 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2011, 06:15:08 AM
I am considering one of the following three amps/integrated for my home office.

I can't tell what that middle one is.

You might consider Rogue gear.  They provide a lot of audio quality for the buck
(http://www.rogueaudio.com/images/enlarged/CronosFront.jpg)

http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Titan.htm#Cronos (http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Titan.htm#Cronos) (they also have another integrated called the "Tempest").
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on July 03, 2011, 06:42:34 AM
Quote from: Daverz on July 03, 2011, 06:34:45 AM
I can't tell what that middle one is.

You might consider Rogue gear.  They provide a lot of audio quality for the buck
(http://www.rogueaudio.com/images/enlarged/CronosFront.jpg)

http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Titan.htm#Cronos (http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Titan.htm#Cronos) (they also have another integrated called the "Tempest").

The middle one is Audio Research.  I can actually buy Rogue directly from the manufacturer since the closest dealership is over 100 miles from my house.  Everyone of these amps (including Rogue) are American made.
Electrocompaniet is interesting but after-sale support may be spotty since it does not have many dealerships in the US.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on July 03, 2011, 09:24:20 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2011, 06:15:08 AM
I am considering one of the following three amps/integrated for my home office.

(http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/Assets/Images/Products/MA6300/XL_MA6300_D.jpg)

(http://www.audioresearch.com/images/m/vs115.jpg)

(http://www.spearitsound.com/cj/cj_images/LP70S.jpg)

as my current CJ MF-2500A 250 watts/ch power amp is too powerful for a 10 x 10 room.

Respectively:
Personally in a small room I'd go with the an integrated just because of the smaller footprint. Also personally I prefer transparent, neutral, timbre-accurate amps versus warm, full-bodied, organic sounding amps -- but chacun à son goût, eh?

Fitting my criteria, I'd look seriously at the Bel Canto C5i; it include a built-in DAC and is a bit cheaper as a bonus. see HERE (http://www.belcantodesign.com/Belcanto_C5i_DAC_Integrated_Amplifier.html).

(http://www.belcantodesign.com/images/dac1_5.jpg)

See a couple of review of the C5i ...

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue55/c5i.htm (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue55/c5i.htm)
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/belcanto2/1.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/belcanto2/1.html)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on July 03, 2011, 10:04:32 AM
I'm thinking about getting a pair of those cute little B&W MM-1 speakers for my computer, as it is where I do 90% of my listening. They're $499.99. I don't see how to attach a picture, so here is a link: http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/iPod_and_Computer_Speakers/iPod_and_Computer_Speakers/MM-1/Product-Details.html

If they sound as good as they look, I'll be very happy.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on July 03, 2011, 10:07:57 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2011, 06:15:08 AM
I am considering one of the following three amps/integrated for my home office.

(http://www.spearitsound.com/cj/cj_images/LP70S.jpg)
I always like the conrad-johnson look, Stuart.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on July 03, 2011, 12:38:00 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2011, 06:42:34 AM
I can actually buy Rogue directly from the manufacturer

They are very nice to deal with over the phone.

I'm using their M-180 monoblocks in my main system (shown here with the cover off).

(http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/110rogue.2.jpg)

It's not going to win any beauty contests, but the build quality is very high.

Quote from: Fëanor on July 03, 2011, 09:24:20 AM
(http://www.belcantodesign.com/images/dac1_5.jpg)

A tube pre and tube amps put out a lot of heat, so I've been thinking of something like a Wyred4Sound or Bel Canto integrated, which would run cool because of their class D amplification, for the summer months (it can get up to 110F here).  Unfortunately, I don't have any way to hear any of this equipment before buying.

Maybe I should just go to the beach instead.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on July 03, 2011, 12:41:45 PM
Quote from: Jay F on July 03, 2011, 10:07:57 AM
I always like the conrad-johnson look, Stuart.

I already have 2 CJ amps but they are both solid state. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on July 03, 2011, 12:45:18 PM
Quote from: Daverz on July 03, 2011, 12:38:00 PM
They are very nice to deal with over the phone.

I'm using their M-180 monoblocks in my main system (shown here with the cover off).

(http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/110rogue.2.jpg)

It's not going to win any beauty contests, but the build quality is very high.

A tube pre and tube amps put out a lot of heat, so I've been thinking of something like a Wyred4Sound or Bel Canto integrated, which would run cool because of their class D amplification, for the summer months (it can get up to 110F here).  Unfortunately, I don't have any way to hear any of this equipment before buying.

Maybe I should just go to the beach instead.

I have been using a SS amp/tube preamp combo for a few years.  Hooking up a tube CDP to this combo leads to some fabulous sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on July 03, 2011, 01:07:10 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2011, 12:45:18 PM
I have been using a SS amp/tube preamp combo for a few years.  Hooking up a tube CDP to this combo leads to some fabulous sound.

What SS amp?

I do have a Bryston 3B-SST, a 150W solid state amp.  But last time I hooked it up I was rather disappointed with the sound compared to the Rogues.  The Bryston does give you more treble detail, but, oddly, sounds less transparent.  Before that I had a big BAT VK-250SE solid state amp (same power rating as the Bryston, but with a massive power supply that would dim the lights in the rest of the house when turned on), but I traded that in for the Rogues.  The BAT actually ran nearly as hot as one of the Rogues.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on October 09, 2011, 01:20:19 PM
That time of the year again....

(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue52/images/Pic%201--RMAF%20logo.jpg)

(http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/feature_reviews/show_reports/2007-12-rocky-mountain-audio-fest-18.jpg)

Looking forward to this seminar:

http://audiofest.net/2011/event_listing_item.php?articles_id=100&newsdeskPath=3?Sid=628367cd7f9313698eb34a3504c59610
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on October 09, 2011, 01:21:56 PM
Quote from: Daverz on July 03, 2011, 01:07:10 PM
What SS amp?

I do have a Bryston 3B-SST, a 150W solid state amp.  But last time I hooked it up I was rather disappointed with the sound compared to the Rogues.  The Bryston does give you more treble detail, but, oddly, sounds less transparent.  Before that I had a big BAT VK-250SE solid state amp (same power rating as the Bryston, but with a massive power supply that would dim the lights in the rest of the house when turned on), but I traded that in for the Rogues.  The BAT actually ran nearly as hot as one of the Rogues.

SS=Solid State
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on October 09, 2011, 01:23:13 PM
Quote from: Bogey on October 09, 2011, 01:20:19 PM
That time of the year again....

(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue52/images/Pic%201--RMAF%20logo.jpg)

(http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/feature_reviews/show_reports/2007-12-rocky-mountain-audio-fest-18.jpg)

Looking forward to this seminar:

http://audiofest.net/2011/event_listing_item.php?articles_id=100&newsdeskPath=3?Sid=628367cd7f9313698eb34a3504c59610

Bill,   These speakers look as heavy as an upright piano ...   :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on October 09, 2011, 01:28:08 PM
Well, they should, Stuart. ;D

http://mbl-usa.com/Browse.aspx/392/Speakers
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on October 09, 2011, 01:36:40 PM
This would be a fun seminar with a number of the members here:

http://audiofest.net/2011/event_listing_item.php?articles_id=107&newsdeskPath=3?Sid=cc25cd06bad529dfc2303a38f4f1e2d0
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 09, 2011, 04:42:57 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on October 09, 2011, 01:23:13 PM
Bill,   These speakers look as heavy as an upright piano ...   :o

50 kilos in dilithium crystals alone.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 09, 2011, 05:02:54 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on October 09, 2011, 01:21:56 PM
SS=Solid State

Yeah, but what model?

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on October 09, 2011, 05:21:02 PM
Quote from: Daverz on October 09, 2011, 05:02:54 PM
Yeah, but what model?

MF-2500A
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on October 09, 2011, 05:57:34 PM
(http://www.salksound.com/home_htm_files/139.jpg)


After six years and several electronics upgrades, I decided it was time to retire my Joseph Audio RM25s for something better.  But speaker prices have always bothered me more than any other component.  They are almost all ripoffs, with most speakers using OTS drivers and electrical components.  The few companies that do it all, like Dynaudio, Monitor Audio, B&W, KEF, and Focal all strike me as a wee bit pricey for what you get, KEF excepted, though some Dynaudios do use the wonderful sounding Esotar2 tweeter.

After some looking, I found Salk Sound, and ordered a pair of Song Towers as a test.  The speakers, which sell for $1800 base (though cost more in Bubinga finish as pictured, which is what I opted for), have more expensive components than some speakers, including the Josephs, that sell for $4K+.  They have garnered some good reviews, so I figured why not.  I'm going to use them in my main system to see if Salk delivers, and if so I'm going to go further up the range and will move these to my bedroom system.  If they don't meet my expectations, I'll still move these to my bedroom system and I'll probably opt for nicer Josephs, though the new Perspective is really just a Seas Delling kit all decked out in a pretty cabinet.  Perhaps the best thing about Salk is they will customize any speaker any way I want.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 09, 2011, 07:33:09 PM
Quote from: Todd on October 09, 2011, 05:57:34 PM
Bubinga finish as pictured,

Unusual to find such a gorgeous finish near that price.

In the US most of the brands you mentioned would be inflated in price by exchange rates and the importer's cut (mostly the latter, really). 

Have you auditioned PSB speakers?

I haven't done any speaker shopping for a few years, but beside Vandersteen, the only other brand I liked at the time was Aerial.   Well, and some Quad electrostatics that were just way too big for my place.  But I never heard KEF.   I gave up on B&W; they seem quite overrated (I was auditioning the 803/804 models).  Magnepan's (3.6?) sounded disastrous in the shop, but that might have been the dealer's fault.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on October 09, 2011, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on October 09, 2011, 05:21:02 PM
MF-2500A
Me too.....
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on October 10, 2011, 05:05:14 AM
Quote from: Daverz on October 09, 2011, 07:33:09 PM
  But I never heard KEF.   I gave up on B&W; they seem quite overrated (I was auditioning the 803/804 models).  Magnepan's (3.6?) sounded disastrous in the shop, but that might have been the dealer's fault.

B&W prettiefies the sound too much for me. It sounds wonderful and after two minutes I become suspicious and after ten minutes I feel cheated on.

My thing right now is Thiel, especially the small but powerful SCS4 (http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/models/Current_Models/SCS4/SCS4_main.shtml). A steal in the US, compared to the prices of other speakers that match it (or lose out to it). Very neutral, extremely precise (which makes it very explosive and punchy) and only a little 'stiff at the hips' when it comes to non-classical, groovy music where it just isn't able to take the leash a little looser.  Looks terrible in Natural Cherry, but excellent in the Dark Cherry and Black Ash finishes.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on October 10, 2011, 07:02:23 AM
Quote from: The new erato on October 09, 2011, 09:36:13 PM
Me too.....

No new equipments in the near term for me, as I have shelled out $25K so far this year in vet care for my three dachshunds and the two boys did not make it while the girl is so far battling cancer successfully.  The Euro debt crisis has not helped as my portfolios have taken some major hits ...     :( 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on October 10, 2011, 07:08:40 AM
Quote from: Daverz on October 09, 2011, 07:33:09 PM
Well, and some Quad electrostatics that were just way too big for my place.  But I never heard KEF. 

KEF and Quad are now both Chinese companies.  Who knows how the Chinese are running their operations today.  At any rate, I refuse to pay top dollar for gears made in China and this is a personal philosophy.  There are still many excellent US-made speakers at good price points and I see no reasons to look beyond our shores, the same goes for electronics ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on October 10, 2011, 07:41:28 AM
Quote from: Daverz on October 09, 2011, 07:33:09 PMHave you auditioned PSB speakers? 

I gave up on B&W; they seem quite overrated



I've tried some PSBs, but not the Synchronys.  I'm not sure they have the sound I am looking for, and they have metal dome tweeters, which I'm not generally a fan of, though the Focal Beryllium models have an amazing high end (but a disappointing low end).  B&W is an interesting company.  Their really cheap speakers like the older DM301s (my son now uses my old pair) are remarkable performers at the $300-ish range and can play insanely loud for such a small speaker.  But after a couple cheap models, you have to go up to the 802s before good sound returns.  The 803/804/805s are poor performers at their price point, but when the midrange is in the synthetic compartment of the highest end models, everything sounds good.  The speakers are too big, too ugly, and still too expensive for what you get, though.  As to Maggies, I heard some in a showroom and they sounded bad, and a friend of mine has some, and they sounded, well, bad, so it just may be Maggies.  That's my guess.

Over the past three years or so I've sampled not only most of the speakers available in the local area, but I also drove to the nearest bigger city to hear more speakers.  I was not impressed with what I heard.  I tried the lauded Wilson Sophias, and found the highs very detailed but very harsh, the mids not worthy of the price, and the bass surprisingly weak for a speaker that is supposed to have great bass.  Of course, the other two run-ins with Wilsons I had were not so good.  The Watt Puppies had a cartoonishly large soundstage with oversized bass instruments, and the old CUBs are literally the worst sounding speakers I have ever heard.  I do not exaggerate one bit when I say I would rather listen to $10 computer speakers.  The lovely Sonus Faber Homage (both Amati and Stradivari) floorstanders, like pretty much all Sonus floorstanders, had heavily colored, woody bass, and were and are way outside my price range.  I don't know what the new, post-Franco Serblin Sonuses sound like, but who wants a Sonus not designed by Franco Serblin? 

The "problem" with the Josephs is that they balance everything so well, that it has been hard to find a speaker in a sane price range ($10K or less) that outperform them noticeably in every regard.  Sure I can find speakers that do bass a bit better, or perhaps the highs, maybe midrange clarity, but never all of them together.  For the most part I was happy, until this past summer when I upgraded my main amp, and then finally the speakers' weaknesses started to come out.  The highs can now sound a bit rough on some recordings, and the resolution of the whole system is limited most by the speakers now.  But when I see the price of the Joseph Perspective – $12K for a (crossover) modified Seas Delling kit, where the drivers and crossover can be purchased separately for $1400 – I balk.  After doing some looking at DIY sites, it's amazing how cheap some components are.  For every $1K a pop Esotar2 tweeter, there are five or more $35-$45 tweeters being put in high end speakers.  I heard a decent pair of Aerials a year to two ago, and they were around $11K if memory serves, but component prices were at most $2K.  I have no problem with the companies involved making money – and they aren't exactly giant firms for the most part, so they aren't making a lot – but it just bugs me to see something that I could conceivably build with one of my brothers-in-law costing so much.  At least it's not as bad as the pricing for Avalon speakers, which do sound good, but have an even more outrageous markup, even accounting for the crazy expensive Accuton drivers they use. 

When I found both Salk Sound and Tyler Acoustics, I was intrigued.  Here are companies that use top of the line OTS drivers – a lot of Seas Excel drivers, Hiquphon tweeters, Accuton drivers (!), as well as others – and build beautiful cabinets, and who will customize the speakers as much as the buyer wants, which also means tweaking the crossover to accommodate the changes to the extent possible.  Now I can get $2K in components for a bit over $4K.  Much more reasonable.  Of course, great components do not guarantee good sound, but it was Dick Olsher's praise for the Salks that finally convinced me that the company has its stuff together.  That, and Jim Salk's no BS feedback.  When I emailed the company, he was the guy who answered.  When I inquired about a crossover upgrade, he suggested I not buy it since he could not hear a difference.  When I asked about a regular high gloss finish, he recommended against it in a detailed response.  And on top of all of that, his firm sends a copy of measurements for each speaker when they ship.  Again, none of this means they will sound good, but it makes me think they have a pretty good chance of sounding good.  (Salk's experience in the recording studio also makes me think they may sound good.)  And they're American made.  I'm no economic nationalist, but I do like spending money on products made here when it makes sense to do so.  If they don't work, I can always spend more on Josephs, which I know sound good. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 10, 2011, 08:20:56 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 10, 2011, 05:05:14 AM
B&W prettiefies the sound too much for me. It sounds wonderful and after two minutes I become suspicious and after ten minutes I feel cheated on.

My thing right now is Thiel, especially the small but powerful SCS4 (http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/models/Current_Models/SCS4/SCS4_main.shtml). A steal in the US, compared to the prices of other speakers that match it (or lose out to it). Very neutral, extremely precise (which makes it very explosive and punchy) and only a little 'stiff at the hips' when it comes to non-classical, groovy music where it just isn't able to take the leash a little looser.  Looks terrible in Natural Cherry, but excellent in the Dark Cherry and Black Ash finishes.

I did try Thiel.  The model would have been whatever they had for about $4k several years ago (may have been the 2.4).  I liked them overall, but they did seem notably tipped up in the upper midrange, which warms strings up nicely, but I thought it might be tiring after a while.  Also I simply refuse to step foot in the local Thiel dealer, Sound Company in San Diego, so I haven't heard their newer models.

I also tried some Sonus Fabers (Grand Piano, I think), and while they were very pleasant to listen to, they had the very colored bass as Todd described.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on October 26, 2011, 08:58:24 AM
I'm back into multi-channel sound after an equipment failure a couple of years ago deprived me of the ability to play m/c SACDs.

I very recently got a Sony BDP-S580 that can play SACDs and deliver a hi-rez signal via HDMI to a receiver. You can select whether the signal is to be passes as DSD or PCM.  My receiver will handle only PCM, but the good news is that receiver's full DSP capability, (time delay, equalization), can be applied to the input PCM stream. The result is great even though my equipment is just low-mid range in price.

Multi-channel sound from a properly set up system will give you an approximation of live concert hall sound that stereo simply cannot ever do.

See my configuration ...

(http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/Feanor_HTSystem.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Roberto on October 28, 2011, 12:05:40 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on October 26, 2011, 08:58:24 AM
See my configuration ...

http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/Feanor_HTSystem.jpg (http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/Feanor_HTSystem.jpg)
:o
I've expected a photo of your room.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on October 28, 2011, 07:04:04 AM
Quote from: Roberto on October 28, 2011, 12:05:40 AM
:o
I've expected a photo of your room.  :)

So you got both more and less than you expected  :D ...

(http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/Feanor_HTSystem.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on November 01, 2011, 08:20:57 AM
(http://www.wooaudio.com/images/fullsize/wa6_right_bk.jpg)

A couple weeks ago, a friend of mine bought himself a new headphone amp, the Woo Audio WA6.  It's a tube design.  (An SET, to be exact.)  I don't like tubes.  He assured me that it sounded good, and that's before breaking in.  (For convenience, let's assume break-in is real.)  I said nuh-uh.  He said uh-huh.  Anyway, he took off last week for about a week and asked me if I wouldn't mind breaking in the unit for him.  This would also give me a chance to hear how poorly tubes handle headphones.

Tubes sound splendid with headphones.  There's no impedance matching to worry about, for the most part.  There are no big, unruly bass drivers to control.  Power output is basically irrelevant.  As a result, I must say that I have been converted to tubes when it comes to driving headphones.  This somewhat affordable amp (about $600) does pretty much everything right.  Bass is well nigh perfect – which is much different from regular tube amps.  Highs are still a bit rolled off, but that may actually be a good thing.  The midrange is lush and beautiful – all that tube goodness, or distortion, take your pick – with nary a hint of glare.  Everything sounds smooth and groovy.  When paired with my 600 Ohm Beyerdynamic DT 880s, the Woo delivers glorious sound that I can listen to for hours at a stretch.  It even makes me want to listen to non-classical music.  Jazz sounds especially fine, with saxes sounding better than normal.  The only drawback I can find is that solo piano lacks a bit of bite when compared to my main system, but it's easy enough to adjust to. 

So perhaps a Woo will end up in my system soon, or soon-ish.  The WA6 sounds much better than my Schiit Asgard, and as with Schiit, Woo is hand-made right here in the good old US of A.  Hell, they even hand-wind the transformers in their NYC shop.  Build quality is at least equal to my standard Naim "Classic" series gear.  I want one.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Karl Henning on November 01, 2011, 09:27:04 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 01, 2011, 08:20:57 AM
. . .  Jazz sounds especially fine, with saxes sounding better than normal.

Gotta be good!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Robert on November 01, 2011, 01:20:57 PM
Todd,

I always felt Tubes added a warmth to the sound..
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 02, 2011, 01:16:18 PM
Tube amps don't have to have mushy bass, rolled-off highs, or a syrupy midrange.   My Rogue M-180 amps are very good at the frequency extremes and have a neutral sound.  The tubes themselves, though, can be a pain.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on November 02, 2011, 01:27:50 PM
Quote from: Daverz on November 02, 2011, 01:16:18 PMTube amps don't have to have mushy bass, rolled-off highs, or a syrupy midrange.



That's true, though rare, at least in my experience.  I've not heard Rogue gear, though I would not mind it, but of all the various tube setups I've heard, the only one that didn't display all or at least one of the standard tube attributes was one with Nagra VPA monoblocks.  The system was also fronted by one of the big dCS digital rigs and was as good sounding a system as I've heard, and it was using only some moderate ProAcs that I generally didn't like.  (They were standard demo speakers for my dealer, so I heard them a lot even though I had no interest.)  Given my general preferences, solid state is the way to go.  It could be an expensive, time consuming experiment to try tube gear.  And of course I'd want to swap tubes, etc.  Now, with a headphone amp, only a (relatively) little amount of money is needed to experiment.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on November 04, 2011, 08:45:05 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 02, 2011, 01:27:50 PM
...  Given my general preferences, solid state is the way to go.  It could be an expensive, time consuming experiment to try tube gear.  And of course I'd want to swap tubes, etc.  Now, with a headphone amp, only a (relatively) little amount of money is needed to experiment.

Same here. I was thinking of THIS (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-Little-Dot-MK-III-Headphone-Tube-Amplifier-Pre-Amp-/280733517011?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415d0584d3) Little Dot headphone preamp unit; it's had some good vibes.

On the other hand maybe not.  I'm reasonably convinced that the touted advantages of tube preamps & amps -- warmth, harmonic richness, depth of soundstage -- are really artifacts and not actually on the recordings. To be sure, one is entitled to like them as a matter of preference.

I recently swapped by tube preamp for a passive device, and my supposedly "tube-like" Monarchy SM-70 Pro amps for a class D amp. I know I'm getting more "air" and transparency and truer instrument timbres.  BTW, I can highly recommend Class D Audio's SDS series of amps; see their website HERE (http://classdaudio.com/).  These amps will outperform traditional amps costing several times their price; they're also light weight and run cool.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 04, 2011, 09:25:14 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on November 04, 2011, 08:45:05 AM

Same here. I was thinking of THIS (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-Little-Dot-MK-III-Headphone-Tube-Amplifier-Pre-Amp-/280733517011?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415d0584d3) Little Dot headphone preamp unit; it's had some good vibes.

On the other hand maybe not.  I'm reasonably convinced that the touted advantages of tube preamps & amps -- warmth, harmonic richness, depth of soundstage -- are really artifacts and not actually on the recordings. To be sure, one is entitled to like them as a matter of preference.

I recently swapped by tube preamp for a passive device, and my supposedly "tube-like" Monarchy SM-70 Pro amps for a class D amp. I know I'm getting more "air" and transparency and truer instrument timbres.  BTW, I can highly recommend Class D Audio's SDS series of amps; see their website HERE (http://classdaudio.com/).  These amps will outperform traditional amps costing several times their price; they're also light weight and run cool.

Just about all powered subs are powered by class D amps these days ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 29, 2011, 06:17:38 PM
(http://www.wooaudio.com/images/fullsize/wa6se-8.jpg)


I couldn't resist.  I received a windfall that just about covered the cost of the Woo WA6-SE and took the plunge, just in time for Christmas.  The two unit design - one for the power supply, one for the amp itself - is even better than the WA6 I tried earlier.  The minor reservations I had about the WA6, mainly that pianos lack bite, are gone.  Bass, mids, and highs are all superb; dynamic range is insanely good; timbre is realistic across the board; detail is abundant but never emphasized - it's just there for listening pleasure.  An awesome little amp that, when paired with Beyerdynamic DT880s, delivers some of the best sound I've heard from any amp/transducer combo ever.  I wonder what it would sound like with Beyer T1s . . .
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 31, 2011, 06:26:06 AM
     I'm a guitar player (retired). There's nothing I don't know about what tubes can do for your sound if you drive them hard, which I had a tendency to do. I played through small bottle 17 watters, cathode biased, no NFB, and big bottle fixed bias solid state rectified jobs from Fender, Marshall and Hiwatt.

     For music playback tubes do very little that solid state doesn't do. The difference is tubes will have between 10 and 100 times higher minimum distortion (say 1% as against .01), but the spectrum is different. Most of the distortion tubes produce is euphonious while solid state amps produce nasty grating harmonics. You never want to overdrive them. That's why you can get away with a 30 watt tube amp in a home stereo when you'd be forced to use >100 solid state watts in the same situation.

     It puzzles me why people spend money on expensive amps which they connect to their CD players or portables. Why? You can't make the sound better that way, all you can do is preserve the quality you have, and for that you don't need to spend money. The preamp in your CD player/iPod/whatever is giving you that good sound, all you need to do is not mess it up.

     
QuoteWoo WA6-SE

     Woo, indeed. Look, these are works of art, or expensive home decorations, if you like. I wouldn't mind owning one, but I wouldn't expect it to sound different unless I plugged my bass into it and started doing chords at high volume. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 31, 2011, 08:38:46 AM
Quote from: drogulus on December 31, 2011, 06:26:06 AMYou can't make the sound better that way, all you can do is preserve the quality you have, and for that you don't need to spend money.



Actually, yes, the sound can be made better with a better amp.  This applies to music produced through speakers or headphones.  It's very simple, and objectively true.  I'd gladly offer anyone a blind A/B comparison between the Woo and the headphone out of my NAD, with proper decibel matching.



Quote from: drogulus on December 31, 2011, 06:26:06 AMWoo, indeed. Look, these are works of art, or expensive home decorations, if you like. I wouldn't mind owning one, but I wouldn't expect it to sound different unless I plugged my bass into it and started doing chords at high volume.


Um, this is a headphone amp.  I'm not sure what you're writing about here.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on December 31, 2011, 11:08:28 AM
My audio system for my PC - fairly basic.

(http://www.edifier.ca/english/speakers/m3300sf/m3300SF-800.jpg)

plus this

(http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/sennhd580.jpg)

plus this

(http://cdn.head-fi.org/e/e1/e1b4160b_e7e9.jpg)

I also use JRiver Media Centre 16 as my media player, configured for direct digital streaming using their kernel streaming plug in. Makes for excellent sound from a PC
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 31, 2011, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: Todd on December 31, 2011, 08:38:46 AM


Actually, yes, the sound can be made better with a better amp.  This applies to music produced through speakers or headphones.  It's very simple, and objectively true.  I'd gladly offer anyone a blind A/B comparison between the Woo and the headphone out of my NAD, with proper decibel matching.


     It might sound better if you like the way tubes degrade the sound at higher volumes. That's possible. As for blind A/B testing, it usually goes to show that you can't hear the difference that an engineer says you can't hear. When the distortion is below audibility on both devices you won't be able to tell them apart. IOW if they measure the same they are identical. And measuring the same includes distortion levels that are 2 orders of magnitude apart when both are low. There's no difference between inaudible 1% distortion and inaudible .01% distortion.

     There's a difference between hearing something that sounds so obviously better that you think you would hear it in a blind test, and actually hearing the difference in a blind test. The difference disappears in a properly conducted test. This explains a common experience audiophiles have. Someone tells you about a "jaw dropping" difference between 2 components and you can't hear it but keep quiet for fear that you'll be treated as an unbeliever. Besides, maybe you were having a bad day. Eventually you face up to the real problem, which is that placebo audio requires that you know which device is to be favored in order to favor it. I had this experience a number of times and like everyone else made excuses, until I couldn't any more.

Quote from: Todd on December 31, 2011, 08:38:46 AM

Um, this is a headphone amp.  I'm not sure what you're writing about here.

     I wouldn't actually do it, of course.

     No, maybe I would, with some cheap disposable phones, just for kicks. Headphone amps are preamps, after all, not unlike the bass preamps you can buy at the guitar center. As a matter of fact I own such a preamp. If I set the tone controls for flat response it (2-10-2, I think), waahhhlahh, it's a headphone amp. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 31, 2011, 01:03:15 PM

     I bought a new nano, and now that I've gotten used to its tiny-ness and the touchscreen I can say it's wonderful.

     (http://www.pocket-lint.com/images/dynamic/REVIEW-5014-6a7a1b8d3ee154e63f36ff883858adc7.JPG)

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 31, 2011, 01:35:22 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 31, 2011, 12:34:45 PMEventually you face up to the real problem


What "problem" are you referring to? 

I must say that I find your supposedly objective outlook on audio amusing.  Since you have not heard the gear in question, you cannot offer an informed opinion of what the gear sounds like.  You can offer a guess of what you think it may sound like, or the existence/non-existence of differences, but that's not the same thing.  In addition, you offer no actual measurements, something you should surely have on offer if you are to have an objective basis for your assertions; you offer a statement like "IOW if they measure the same they are identical," but you do not offer measurements.

As to the Woo, I stated in a prior post about a different model that I was skeptical about the quality of a tube headphone amp, until I lived with one for about a week, doing direct comparisons to my SS headphone amp.  It sounds different, and it sounds better.  For all I know, it may measure quite poorly, but better measurements do not necessarily equate to better sound.  The obvious analog here is LPs vs CDs.  CDs (and digital files) measure better - broader dynamic range, better signal to noise ratio, less distortion, etc - yet for most jazz and rock, I find that LPs sound better.  The compressed, distorted sound is more appealing.  For classical, the opposite is usually the case, though some string quartet recordings sound superb on vinyl.

I have to also say that your phrase "placebo audio" is most enjoyable.  Only you have figured things out.  Got it.  Of course, you are quite presumptuous, too.  Tell me, how many times have I (or anyone else, for that matter) listened to prestige gear that everyone in the know says is awesome - the best out there! - only to find that not to be the case?  Have I (or has anyone else) ever returned gear because it did not live up to expectations?  You are confusing your experience and preferences for some universal, "objective" truth.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 31, 2011, 01:52:59 PM

     That's right, I can offer a guess as to what it sounds like. But I'm not confusing my experience with objective truth, I'm refusing to equate the one with the other on the grounds that I know my experience is not objective. So I tried to find out why, and I did. It's really easy once you give up the idea that other people can be fooled but you can't. I know I can be fooled so I look for objective criteria. I trust it because many double blind tests of audio equipment have been done and the results confirm what I say. When the possibility of bias is removed the bias disappears. But you can run more tests to see if you get a different result.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 31, 2011, 02:20:37 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 31, 2011, 01:52:59 PMIt's really easy once you give up the idea that other people can be fooled but you can't.



Oh, I know I can be fooled.  But I also know that I must actually listen to a component before I can assess what it sounds like, and whether it meets my preferences.  Relying on double-blind tests can have limitations (such as the impact of amplifier output distortion, which, if a common signal switcher is used, will result in a measurable change in the signal and thus present an inaccurate representation of what an amplifer sounds like by itself), and strikes me as dogmatic in an almost religious way.  It creates a similar expectation bias: A test concluded X, therefore X always holds true.  I guess I'd have to dig into such tests to see if they use truly objective measurements - testing frequency response, CSD, etc at the listening position, and more standard measurement distances (ie, 1 meter) - and whether the same weight is given to such truly objective measures as to listeners' "I prefer choice 'A'" responses.  Since I place less weight on them then you do, I won't expend the time to do so, though if you provide the methodologies used in your preferred tests, I'd gladly review them in more depth.

I use published, preferably third-party measurements, if available, as a guide of where to start when looking for new gear.  This approach is especially helpful in the realm of speakers given the wider disparities in output, but can assist in any area of audio.  Then, with the appropriate demo in my own system, I can make an assessment based on what I actually hear.  Nothing beats actually experiencing the thing itself.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on January 01, 2012, 11:37:15 AM
I am seriously considering getting this Austrian-made integrated tube amp for my study ...

(http://pic6.audiogon.com/i/s/f/1241914930.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 19, 2012, 12:53:53 PM
Quote from: Todd on December 31, 2011, 02:20:37 PM


Oh, I know I can be fooled.  But I also know that I must actually listen to a component before I can assess what it sounds like, and whether it meets my preferences.  Relying on double-blind tests can have limitations (such as the impact of amplifier output distortion, which, if a common signal switcher is used, will result in a measurable change in the signal and thus present an inaccurate representation of what an amplifer sounds like by itself), and strikes me as dogmatic in an almost religious way.  It creates a similar expectation bias: A test concluded X, therefore X always holds true.  I guess I'd have to dig into such tests to see if they use truly objective measurements - testing frequency response, CSD, etc at the listening position, and more standard measurement distances (ie, 1 meter) - and whether the same weight is given to such truly objective measures as to listeners' "I prefer choice 'A'" responses.  Since I place less weight on them then you do, I won't expend the time to do so, though if you provide the methodologies used in your preferred tests, I'd gladly review them in more depth.

I use published, preferably third-party measurements, if available, as a guide of where to start when looking for new gear.  This approach is especially helpful in the realm of speakers given the wider disparities in output, but can assist in any area of audio.  Then, with the appropriate demo in my own system, I can make an assessment based on what I actually hear.  Nothing beats actually experiencing the thing itself.

     The measurement difficulties concern differences that can't be heard. That's what is being tested. The fact they are not heard when the identity of the components is not known has 2 related consequences. First, that standard psychoacoustical theory that small differences are inaudible is confirmed and second, that imagined differences are doing all the work.

     As to your point about experience being the best judge, I'll state my qualified agreement. Examined experience, including the vanishing differences under tests, isn't just the best judge, it's the only way to find out if tiny differences can be heard (they can't, experience shows). When differences are large enough to be heard (as with speakers), they're heard. But when differences are too small to hear, imaginary differences are heard instead. When the possibility of imaginary differences is removed, so are the differences.

     I don't think finding test flaws helps. All it amounts to is saying that the tests are flawed because the differences I hear are real, appealing to the thesis the test refutes. That's not to say the tests are flawless, they might be flawed. I've read some of the critiques of tests that complain that the equipment used is not of sufficient audiophile quality. Of course this is a demand for ever more expensive and complex tests. The test of disappearing differences is flawed because the differences disappeared, and since engineering standards are rejected by subjectivists they win by default. Any test that works according to standard audio practice which says tiny differences are inaudible must be flawed since it confirms what audiophiles somehow know is not true. Never mind how they know their experience is right except when it's tested. They just do.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 19, 2012, 01:24:26 PM
Quote from: drogulus on January 19, 2012, 12:53:53 PMFirst, that standard psychoacoustical theory that small differences are inaudible is confirmed



Well, if it's true in theory, it must be true.  No need to bother listening at all before offering an opinion on how something must sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 19, 2012, 01:43:39 PM

     We cross posted so I moved my latest behind yours, to avoid time travel.

     Here's a site that gives an engineering perspective on the controversy:

     Science and Subjectivism in Audio (http://douglas-self.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm)

     The question that occurs to me is.....why? Why would a problem be so hard to solve when it rests on technical considerations? One possible way to understand is that subjectivism is part of a larger social and intellectual trend that has spread along with "alternative" medicine and Ufology. There has been a decline in the perceived value of expertise across the board, and the vacuum is filled with whatever beliefs can find a foothold.

     
Quote from: Todd on January 19, 2012, 01:24:26 PM


Well, if it's true in theory, it must be true.  No need to bother listening at all before offering an opinion on how something must sound.

     No, you have to test the theory even if it has been confirmed in the past. But how do you test the theory that what you hear is real if you don't think the test can tell you? If the test said you were right you wouldn't bother with how audiophile the test setup was, you'd say it confirmed what you knew. These tests have been run many times, on speaker cables, amps and preamps, CD players and various other devices. In every case the proponents have said that theoretically inaudible differences were in fact audible. When tested the differences could not be found. Furthermore, though I'm not an expert in audio theory and practice, this looks like a field where theory and practice move closely together. This isn't arcane stuff. We didn't just become smarter about acoustics in the 1970s when subjectivism first appeared. Theory, in this case, is well confirmed, which is why many people in professional audio have such low regard for audiophilia. They never bought it, unlike me. I did give it a whirl, but began to question the soundness of its assumptions. Upon examination, the whole house of cards came down.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 19, 2012, 02:16:02 PM
Quote from: drogulus on January 19, 2012, 01:43:39 PMThese tests have been run many times, on speaker cables, amps and preamps, CD players and various other devices. In every case the proponents have said that theoretically inaudible differences were in fact audible. When tested the differences could not be found.



I'm aware of the general results of tests, and some specific results of some specific tests, but for me, unless the test includes truly objective measurements - eg, frequency response and CSD at the listening position, and even harmonic distortion for the hell of it - I don't really see the test as objective.  Differences in frequency response are (or can be) easily audible as well as measurable.  CSD differences, if they are large enough in magnitude, are also easily audible as well as measurable, and some stereos and components (especially speakers, headphones, and phono cartridges) will sound different and measure different.  If 20 people all say they can't hear a 3 dB difference at 1 Khz measured at the listening position, that doesn't mean that there is no difference in sound, that means that the test subjects couldn't or didn't hear it.  I can't imagine that being the case, but who knows?

Of course most audiophile press is hooey.  But there can in fact be, and in fact are, differences in sound between components.  A standard battery of measurements would almost certainly show why.  Most measurements I've seen of SS and tube amps show significant differences in distortion at easily audible levels, for instance.  A tube amp with 3% THD at 20 watts will sound different from a SS amp with .003% THD at 100 watts in almost any room with pretty much any speaker.  (Hitting 20 watt peaks is not particularly difficult in a medium or large room using insensitive speakers.)  If a SS and tube amp both measure at .05% THD at 100 watts, they will sound far more similar, and possibly identical.  Sometimes things that measure worse may be deemed to sound better.  Like LPs vs CDs as I mentioned before, or high distortion, low output tubes.

It's also worth noting that some people who work with recordings for a living have gone out of there way to build elaborate systems, or try to use specific gear.  Tony Faulkner and Bob Ludwig come to mind.  And they are renowned for engineering and mastering some of the better sounding recordings out there.  They probably could do so with lesser gear, as well, but why is that? 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 19, 2012, 02:20:58 PM

      Here's a discussion at AVS Forum on Thoughts on Meyer/Moran SACD/DVD-A vs. CD audio study? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=981557) This is one of the more recent (2007) tests of audiophile assumptions. Not that recentness itself is significant, but it does confirm older tests, and that's worth noting.

     One point I'd make. As an empirical matter all of these tests are independent in that one audiophile assumption about, say, the importance of bit depth does not strictly invalidate another such assumption like, for example, the audibility of speaker cable differences where the cables measurements are infinitesimally different. But these subjective judgments travel together under a theory that conventional audio wisdom is wrong in an inexplicable way, so I don't think it's unfair to come to a preliminary conclusion that they all are suspect for the same reason, that nothing but subjective impressions supports them. Subjective impressions are creditable IMO only where they are allowed by what we know about the limits of human hearing, so gross differences are perceived and the judgments based on them don't raise a problem.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 23, 2012, 11:19:41 AM
Quote from: drogulus on January 19, 2012, 01:43:39 PM
... These tests have been run many times, on speaker cables, amps and preamps, CD players and various other devices. In every case the proponents have said that theoretically inaudible differences were in fact audible. When tested the differences could not be found. Furthermore, though I'm not an expert in audio theory and practice, this looks like a field where theory and practice move closely together. This isn't arcane stuff. We didn't just become smarter about acoustics in the 1970s when subjectivism first appeared. Theory, in this case, is well confirmed, which is why many people in professional audio have such low regard for audiophilia. They never bought it, unlike me. I did give it a whirl, but began to question the soundness of its assumptions. Upon examination, the whole house of cards came down.

People who have owned a range of medium or higher quality equipment over a number of years will -- without exception -- assert that equipment doesn't all sound the same.  I'm one of those people. Yes, some of it is imagination and that is especially true where differences in sound are, by general agreement, very small in the first place, e.g. amongst interconnect cables.

In "double blind tests" (DBTs) differences might not be detected, but by their nature DBTs can only prove that differences are inaudible under the conditions of the test -- they cannot prove that differences don't exist.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on January 23, 2012, 12:44:08 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 23, 2012, 11:19:41 AM
In "double blind tests" (DBTs) differences might not be detected, but by their nature DBTs can only prove that differences are inaudible under the conditions of the test -- they cannot prove that differences don't exist.

No one doubts the power of psychology. But to establish that is not the goal of a DBT.

The argument that a negative cannot be proven (which isn't so much an argument but a truism) is fairly weak when compared to scientific -- i.e. falsifiable, repeatable -- attempts at getting at something resembling truth (not faith).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 23, 2012, 01:32:22 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 23, 2012, 12:44:08 PM
No one doubts the power of psychology. But to establish that is not the goal of a DBT.

The argument that a negative cannot be proven (which isn't so much an argument but a truism) is fairly weak when compared to scientific -- i.e. falsifiable, repeatable -- attempts at getting at something resembling truth (not faith).
But then again it's easy (for a trained experimenter) to define a rigorous DBT that isn't a realistic test. That is, it is a reliable test, (repeatable, etc.), but not necessarily a valid test because it doesn't test the aspects that matter under conditions that really matter.  This argument is commonly made by audiophiles, viz. such-and-such a test didn't permit the listener to become familiar with the sound of the different components before the test, or the portions for the test track or the listening interval weren't controlled by the listener, etc.  The non-audiophile tester might dismiss these criticisms as "excuses", but this isn't entirely fair.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on January 24, 2012, 08:10:24 AM
My setup is as humble as hell can be humble.  These are the components I use to listen to music.  Not swanky and costs less than £100.  That is not to say that when I can afford to, I will not hesitate to upgrade to something to the tune of five grand.  But not at this time...so this does just fine.

(http://asda.scene7.com/is/image/Asda/511516?hei=800&wid=600&resmode=sharp&op_usm=1.1,0.5,0,0&defaultimage=default_details_GM)
(http://asda.scene7.com/is/image/Asda/508752?hei=800&wid=600&resmode=sharp&op_usm=1.1,0.5,0,0&defaultimage=default_details_GM)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 18, 2012, 05:58:24 PM
I am out of the loop on SACD's.  Do the newer Blu Ray players play these at an SACD level?  Is an SACD player worth getting, in your opinion?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on March 19, 2012, 12:42:53 AM
Quote from: Bogey on March 18, 2012, 05:58:24 PM
I am out of the loop on SACD's.  Do the newer Blu Ray players play these at an SACD level?  Is an SACD player worth getting, in your opinion?

They will say it, if they do. Universal players like the Oppo-line (and those built on its technology, like Cambridge et al.) do.

Is it worth it? If you are ready/willing/planning to go to surround sound -- now or eventually, then I'd say it is -- because surround is really a game-changer. If you are not, then the difference is much smaller than between good and not-so-good 'regular' equipment. At least that's the impression I got from when I had a Marantz SA-11S1 (pure-stereo) SACD player, which is a lovely build, and pure pleasure to handle, but was much more a psychological improvement than it was a sound improvement.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 19, 2012, 07:31:44 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 19, 2012, 12:42:53 AM
They will say it, if they do. Universal players like the Oppo-line (and those built on its technology, like Cambridge et al.) do.

Is it worth it? If you are ready/willing/planning to go to surround sound -- now or eventually, then I'd say it is -- because surround is really a game-changer. If you are not, then the difference is much smaller than between good and not-so-good 'regular' equipment. At least that's the impression I got from when I had a Marantz SA-11S1 (pure-stereo) SACD player, which is a lovely build, and pure pleasure to handle, but was much more a psychological improvement than it was a sound improvement.

Thanks!  Nope.  No intention of going surround.  In fact, with our home entertainment system I went 2.1.  I just like it better.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on March 19, 2012, 10:28:55 PM
In my system I have a kick ass 2:1 system supplemented with a center and rear channels. With a stereo source it plays 2:1. With multichannel, it plays 5:1. It isn't necessarily and either/or. The quality of the mains and sub are much more important than the center and rears. It can be quite inexpensive to go 5:1 if your 2:1 is covered well already.

I used to have a SACD player, but my amp wasn't able to handle analogue multichannel inputs. I did a line level matched A/B test between the exact same recording and mastering on SACD and redbook and I couldn't discern any difference. The SACD player is in the closet now. I don't want to invest in software for another format that doesn't give me any benefit. I prefer the multichannel formats on DVDs and bluray. They're more universal.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on March 24, 2012, 05:59:19 PM
Quote from: Bogey on March 19, 2012, 07:31:44 PM
Thanks!  Nope.  No intention of going surround.  In fact, with our home entertainment system I went 2.1.  I just like it better.

I have quite a number of spare quality amps in storage and can go multi-channel by just adding the surround processor and extra speakers.  But this is more easily said than done since I have a few doxies at my house as well ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on March 24, 2012, 10:23:35 PM
I switched to SACD several years ago, first two channel, then multi, and I've never looked back! Do those engineer types who claim not to hear a difference even know what real acoustic instruments sound like? SACD has far more detail, depth, richness--you name it, and on a good multi-channel system, the realism can be startling. I have a Sony SACD 5400ES, but we just ordered an Oppo BDP 95 to try and consolidate some of the audio/video gear (my wife does not share my enthusiasm for equipment!). I eagerly await the opportunity to A/B them when it arrives in a few days.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 25, 2012, 01:50:49 AM
Quote from: Bogey on March 18, 2012, 05:58:24 PMDo the newer Blu Ray players play these at an SACD level?

Some models do. I bought a second hand Cambridge Audio Azur 650BD last summer for my first Blu-ray player. Cost me over 500 euros as it is modified region free.

Earlier I used a 200 euros Pioneer DV-575A DVD-player for playing SACDs.  :D

Quote from: Bogey on March 18, 2012, 05:58:24 PMIs an SACD player worth getting, in your opinion?

It is worth getting for those who have a good multichannel audio system for movies and are into classical music. For other music genres the format is more or less dead, even useless.

The increased frequency range isn't the issue. Stereo SACD layer may theoretically sound even worse than the corresponding CD-layer because audio amplifiers can't handle ultrasonic frequences that well (performance has been optimised on audible frequency range). Intermodulation distortion can create distortion on lower audible frequencies. However, I don't think this is a major problem. On listening tests people can't differentiate stereo SACD layer from CD layer.

The increased dynamic range is not necessory actually. CD gives easily 90 dB of dynamics. The background noise level of a silent living room is about 30 dB and 120 dB roughly the threshold of pain. 90 dB dynamics of CD covers that.

Does SACD give anything then? Yes! It gives high quality multichannel sound on hybrid discs that can be player stereophonically with any CD-player. SACD-releases are also engineered very well and they tend to sound good because of that (the CD-layer too!)

High sampling rates and large 24 bits dynamic ranges are very useful in music production. When the recording has been produced, the levels can be optimiced for the 16 bits of CD. The 44.1 kHz sampling rate "protects" amplifiers from ultrasonics while covering the audible range of human hearing.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 25, 2012, 02:34:02 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 23, 2012, 11:19:41 AM
People who have owned a range of medium or higher quality equipment over a number of years will -- without exception -- assert that equipment doesn't all sound the same.  I'm one of those people. Yes, some of it is imagination and that is especially true where differences in sound are, by general agreement, very small in the first place, e.g. amongst interconnect cables.

Loudspeakers have their own sound. Ampliers and sound sources sound almost the same. All the rest of the equipment is practically "soundless". It's crazy to think about interconnect cables when moving your head two inches causes 1000 times bigger changes in perceived sound due to different arrival of sound waves into your ears.

Investing your money to best possible loudspeakers and taking care of the acoustics of your listening room gives by far the greatest improvement for the buck in perceived sound quality as long as the rest of the equipment is "good enough".

Quote from: Fëanor on January 23, 2012, 11:19:41 AMIn "double blind tests" (DBTs) differences might not be detected, but by their nature DBTs can only prove that differences are inaudible under the conditions of the test -- they cannot prove that differences don't exist.

The question is what kind of differences do matter and when? People are very good at creating excuses expanding insignificant differences out of proportion. No wonder most "clear" differences dissappear in controlled blind tests.

High Fidelity is for a big part pure subjectivism. We enjoy getting audio gear we like for subjective reasons and in order to justify our decisions for ourself and others we create excuses in the form of imagined sound attributes. There is nothing wrong with this as we are subjective human beings. The entanglement arises when this subjectivism is thought to be something objective and measurable. We need to learn to live with two truths; objective and subjective.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 25, 2012, 03:41:00 AM
With my amp being the same as this :

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2440046675_622de8a89d.jpg)

(http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz/pics/r_2230.jpg)

I am not sure if I should even give it a go.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 25, 2012, 03:42:11 AM
FWIW, heading here today:

http://www.denvermodernism.com/vintage%20voltage%20expo.html
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: rickardg on March 25, 2012, 03:53:38 AM
How difficult is it to set up a surround system for music? I'm about to get a new system and thinking of going surround, but I don't want to get caught up in endless tinkering (it can be fun, but I just don't have the time now).

Also, any suggestions for such a system? I'm preliminarily thinking about something like Denon AVR-1612 with Dali Concept 6 speakers.

Any gotchas I should be aware of?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 25, 2012, 06:06:19 AM
Quote from: rickardg on March 25, 2012, 03:53:38 AM
How difficult is it to set up a surround system for music? I'm about to get a new system and thinking of going surround, but I don't want to get caught up in endless tinkering (it can be fun, but I just don't have the time now).

Also, any suggestions for such a system? I'm preliminarily thinking about something like Denon AVR-1612 with Dali Concept 6 speakers.

Any gotchas I should be aware of?

For music I recommend a 5.0 system with "large" main speakers capable of deep bass reproduction. That way it's easier to integrate bass into the sound image.

However, all the speakers should be identical in terms of phase and frequency response apart from bass frequences, at least front speakers. The problem is to find a suitable center speaker. Some loudspeaker manufacturers have smaller versions (e.g. Chorus Compact 662) of larger models (Chorus Compact 682) with identical sound apart from bass. That's a perfect solution. The smaller model identical as surround speakers too.

I have a "5.passive" -system where the subwoofer is passive and the signals of main speakers (left & right) are routed through it. All my five speakers are identical. Center and surround speakers are handled as "small" by my amplifier and their lower bass content is routed to main speakers (that is to the passive subwoofer for most part) This solution works if you can integrate the passive subwoofer into the sound image. This is kind of a compromise between music and movies but such systems aren't widely available. My speakers are actually self-made (after construction instructions).

I also recommend that the distance to all speakers is as similar as possible. Identical speakers and distances mean minimal tinkering with channel delays and volumes.

My center speaker is lower than the main speakers. this is because I don't want to put it in front of my tv screen.  :D The center speaker is about 20 cm from the floor, pointing at an precise angle up toward my ears. However, this proximity of floor makes the sound a bit boomy. I have compensated this having a 100 μF capasitor* in series with the center speaker to attenuate lower frequences between 100-300 Hz a bit. Lower frequences than 100 Hz are routed to main speakers. So, it is good to know what you are doing. Multichannel system is more difficult than stereo system to set up correctly. I suppose most people ruin their multichannel system with wrong or badly positioned) center channel (the most important part of the system and the one that can cause a lot of problems). Avoid "horizontal" center speakers with one treble dome between two bass drives. Those look nice but they radiate sound very differently from your typical main speaker.

_______________________________________________________________________________________
*Actually there is also a 10 μF plastic capasitor for high frequences parallel to the 100 μF bipolar capasitor.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on March 25, 2012, 11:41:12 AM
Everything above seconded. Extra bass from a woofer is nice, under certain conditions, but it really isn't necessary...
A 5.0 set up with five identical speakers is easier and free of pitfalls and often the most musically rewarding solution.
When you already have two reasonably sized speakers, it can even be quite economical.

Not surprising, since I've found that 71 dB is our GMG in-house voice of reason and enlightened moderation, when it comes to audio issues.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on May 25, 2012, 10:27:20 PM

  Dear all,

  I figured I'd bump this thread, I just bought this:

  (http://www.royjowetthomecinema.co.uk/images/6004_bx5_crimson_original.jpg)

The Monitor Audio BX5s with Marantz 6004 amp and Marantz 6004 CD player.

  This is an entry level high end audio system and will be my first  "foray" into the world of high end audio. I've this system set up with speakers  3 meters apart, forming an  equilateral triangle, with me sitting at the apex 3 meters from each speaker. I then toed in the speakers, to centre the vocals.   I was in absolute heaven when I played Verdi's Rigoletto! The soundstage effect with the vocals coming from the centre was an experience I had never had before.

Monitor Audio speakers are "bright" speakers so coupling them with the docile Marantz 6004 amp provided a warm and rich textured sound, that is not fatiguing to the ear.  I had previously auditioned this system before at a local audiovisual store and fell in love with it. Price was a bit of an issue as I was quoted £1200 all in but then I saw it online from Roy Jowett for £899 all in delivered!! and jumped at the chance to move one step up the high end audio ladder.



  marvin

 

 
 

 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on May 26, 2012, 07:48:44 AM
I recently bought a pair of Martin Logan Theos electrostatic speakers--wow! They are incredibly transparent and life-like (that's not my house!):

(http://www.martinlogan.com/images/theos/theoslifestyle.jpg)

I'm currently driving them with a Sony STR 6400ES, but I plan to use it as pre/pro and buy a Parasound A51 5-channel amp as soon as my wife "lets" me!

(http://www.parasound.com/img/halo/a51_front_big.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on May 26, 2012, 08:23:27 AM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on May 26, 2012, 07:48:44 AM
I recently bought a pair of Martin Logan Theos electrostatic speakers--wow! They are incredibly transparent and life-like (that's not my house!):

I had a pair of Vantages a few years back. It was a nice way to step into high-end and nail the type of sound I prefer. I hear that Parasound works well with ML, but you should couple them with a tube preamp to really hear some magic.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on May 26, 2012, 10:35:35 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 25, 2012, 10:27:20 PMI figured I'd bump this thread, I just bought this:

The Monitor Audio BX5s with Marantz 6004 amp and Marantz 6004 CD player.



Both Monitor and Marantz offer good bank for the buck.  That's an excellent system.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on May 26, 2012, 11:57:57 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 26, 2012, 10:35:35 AM


Both Monitor and Marantz offer good bank for the buck.  That's an excellent system.

  Thanks Todd. All my life I have had to contend with "modest" stereo equipment, bookshelf speakers, iPod dock minisytems and the like. To fnally own a system capable of producing sound at a grand soundstage scale is taking the whole musical experience to a completely different and much higher level. I tell you Verdi never sounded this good  0:).

 

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 26, 2012, 01:18:51 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 25, 2012, 10:27:20 PM
I just bought an entry level high end audio system [that] will be my first  "foray" into the world of high end audio.
Congratulations, Marvin. I don't think there's any thing I've ever spent a substantial sum on that has provided as much pleasure over so many years as decent hi fi playback gear.  Heck, that may be the only thing that justifies all the extra expense and hassle of owning/maintaining a detached house instead of an apartment or condo! May you enjoy your new sound system for many years to come...but be warned: good hardware only makes some of us lust even more after software to feed it!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: cwarchc on May 26, 2012, 01:19:52 PM
My system at the moment compromises of the following:
Rotel 855 cdp, very pleasant sounding older cd player with an excellent inbuilt dac
Squeezebox Duet
Revolver turntable
I alternate between a couple of amps. Both oddball UK based supplied
The one I'm using at the moment is a giant killing Temple Audio Bantam ( tripath, sometimes known as a T amp, class D) fantastic sound for the money, less than £100. Very cool running, but only one input channel
My other amp is an ONIX OA21, a rare UK built 80's amp, lovely sounding (I've owned it for the last 25 years, and I'll never get rid of it)
I'm using JBL nearfield monitors, they suit the domestic situation
But spend most of my listening through a Bravo tube headphone amp , driving Beyer headphones
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 26, 2012, 01:31:47 PM
I had a Rotel 855 twenty years ago.  It was the first modestly priced CD playback gear I'd heard that sounded like music instead of screeching.  Even though noticeably muddier than good high end gear, it was pleasantly musical and offered terrific bang for the buck.  Enjoy!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on May 26, 2012, 01:47:27 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 26, 2012, 01:18:51 PM
Congratulations, Marvin. I don't think there's any thing I've ever spent a substantial sum on that has provided as much pleasure over so many years as decent hi fi playback gear.  Heck, that may be the only thing that justifies all the extra expense and hassle of owning/maintaining a detached house instead of an apartment or condo! May you enjoy your new sound system for many years to come...but be warned: good hardware only makes some of us lust even more after software to feed it!

  Thanks David  :).

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: cwarchc on May 26, 2012, 03:07:27 PM
 :)I've also got a Marantz and a Cambridge Audio cdp, however I find that I like the presentation of the Rotel
Yes, it's not high end, but it is 20 years old and only cost pennies
It's all about the music.
I'd rather buy 500 cd's than spend it on a player and only have 50
Everybody to their own
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on May 26, 2012, 03:10:27 PM
Quote from: petrarch on May 26, 2012, 08:23:27 AM
I had a pair of Vantages a few years back. It was a nice way to step into high-end and nail the type of sound I prefer. I hear that Parasound works well with ML, but you should couple them with a tube preamp to really hear some magic.

That might be nice, but, I'm not aware of any tube multi-channel pre/pro units!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 26, 2012, 05:00:24 PM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on May 26, 2012, 03:10:27 PM
That might be nice, but, I'm not aware of any tube multi-channel pre/pro units!

I have seen a multi-channel tube preamp.  As for tube amp, just get 5 monoblock tube amps ...    ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Xenophanes on May 29, 2012, 07:39:55 AM
Paradigm Signature S2, v. 1, speakers
Paradigm PW-2500 subwoofer with a Mirage LFX-1 subwoofer crossover

Yamaha CD-C600 CD player. My wife wanted a changer. It sounds fine, and tracks extremely well.
Rega P3 turntable with Shure M97xE cartridge--it's quite a good cartridge.
Warp Knots low filter for phono

Quad 44 preamplifier
Quad 606 amplifier

Sennheiser HD 598 open headphones
Sennheiser HD 280Pro closed headphones

Various interconnects, none expensive
12 AWG Angstrom speaker cable

The Senn HD 598 headphones are a recent accquisition. 

I am awaiting delivery of a HeadRoom Total Bithead headphone amplifier.

Someday I may get an even more capable subwoofer. The PW-2500 goes down to 20 Hz easily, but it's marginal on a 32 foot organ pedal (16 Hz), which is there but down in level.


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 29, 2012, 08:45:16 AM


Quote from: rickardg on 2012-03-25, 07:53:38 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1069.msg614227#msg614227)
How difficult is it to set up a surround system for music? I'm about to get a new system and thinking of going surround, but I don't want to get caught up in endless tinkering (it can be fun, but I just don't have the time now).

Also, any suggestions for such a system? I'm preliminarily thinking about something like Denon AVR-1612 with Dali Concept 6 speakers.

Any gotchas I should be aware of?
To add to what others have said ... It isn't difficult to get excellent multichannel sound. You get multi-channel from DVD, DVD-A, SACD, and Blu-ray.  M/C on Blu-ray comes in several formats at various resolutions but they are all at least as good as CD.

My suggestions for equipment and set-up are the following:
For speaker placement, this guide is generally good: see HERE (http://www.aperionaudio.com/AperionU/multichannel.aspx). Note the "Ideal Home Theatre Placement" is great for music too provided you have and use a good EQ/time-delay facility (such as Audyssey 2EQ or MultiEQ). The time delay feature means that it isn't critical that all speakers be of equal distant from the listening position -- this is of huge practical significance.

If you have only 5 speakers, (no backs), place the Left & Right surrounds 20 degrees behind the listening position.   Note that it's best that the Left, Right, and centre speakers be identical and mounted as nearly as possible on the same horizontal plane. Hook all speakers up to your receiver using 14 or heavier gauge wire.

Don't spend stupid $$ on speaker cables or interconnects including HDMI.  A lot of retailers try to make significant extra profit selling you over-price, high mark-up wire: don't fall for it.  I recommend Blue Jeans Cable, (website HERE (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/)), for professional grade but very reasonably price cables and interconnects.

(http://www.aperionaudio.com/App_Themes/Aperion/images/templates/aperionu/ht_htplacement.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 30, 2012, 06:44:04 AM


Quote from: Holmes on 2012-05-29, 19:22:55 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1069.msg633175#msg633175)
It does seem expensive though if you haven't had much experience with buying speakers.


For multi-channel, you can't get away from the fact that you need 5 speakers instead of 2, (plus a subwoofer don't already have one). Incidentally, a subwoofer obviates the need for large, floor-standing L&R front speakers, so that potentially can save a little money.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on May 30, 2012, 09:19:15 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 26, 2012, 05:00:24 PM
I have seen a multi-channel tube preamp.  As for tube amp, just get 5 monoblock tube amps ...    ;D

That would be prohibitively expensive if I factor in the cost of a divorce.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 09, 2012, 01:40:56 PM
I have a pair of Raidho Eben X-Centrics loudspeakers, a Jeff Rowland Concerto amplifier, a Lite DAC-83 digital to analogic converter, an Audiophilleo USB to spdif converter, a modified AQVox USB Linear Power Supply and a MacBook Pro. I use some Audioquest Sky interconnects, Audioquest Volcano loudspeaker cables, 3 Audioquest NRG-5 power cables, a Furutech FT-SWS (R) wall socket, an Aavik A4 rack with Nordost Pulsar Point feet, some Omicrons... The loudspeakers sit on Target Audio stands. I usually listen to Hi-Res files via USB (used firewire with the Weiss DAC2). As software I use Audirvana but plan on passing to PureMusic.

(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/474796_412820225404302_127071891_o.jpg)

(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/411578_412806375405687_1191854852_o.jpg)

(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/411578_412806378739020_1424944860_o.jpg)

These are some old photos featuring my ex Weiss DAC2... I haven't taken any new photos since then.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on September 09, 2012, 01:44:24 PM
Crikey.
I feel like a musical pauper looking at that kit.   :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 09, 2012, 01:47:40 PM
Quote from: Scots John on September 09, 2012, 01:44:24 PM
Crikey.
I feel like a musical pauper looking at that kit.   :o

I'll take it as a compliment. Skip admiring the dust, please. :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ataraxia on September 09, 2012, 01:48:50 PM
Here's a video of mine. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAKZ-O70wNg
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on September 09, 2012, 01:57:23 PM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 09, 2012, 01:40:56 PM
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/474796_412820225404302_127071891_o.jpg)

Looks impressive! You may achieve better results with some room treatments--from the picture it looks like you have bare corners in your room.

You can check my system and a picture of it in my signature.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 09, 2012, 02:15:48 PM
Quote from: petrarch on September 09, 2012, 01:57:23 PM
Looks impressive! You may achieve better results with some room treatments--from the picture it looks like you have bare corners in your room.

You can check my system and a picture of it in my signature.

I do have 'almost' bare corners in the room but I believe my bass to be very fast and well controlled. The loudspeakers are placed well inside of the front and lateral walls (the perspective in the photos might not do justice to the real world distances - I believe I used some wide angle lense). The lack of toe-in between the loudspeakers might also help this. :)

@ Petrarch. You might benefit from covering those windows. Glass is a terrible reflective material. And the scene and layering might also benefit from this. The room is also pretty empty and resonances could be overwhelming. I used to have a Squeezebox Classic some years ago. Used it with the Weiss interlinked by digital cable. I presume you are using it with the Esoteric DAC. It might limit its qualities. Mine ate some transparency and some prat so I got rid of the SB. Now I'm very pleased with my MacBook.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on September 09, 2012, 02:23:09 PM
Having this on loan for a possible purchase:

(http://www.tivolihifi.com.au/sites/default/files/imagecache/product/yba_08_0.jpg)

YBA Passion 400 Pre Amplifier
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on September 09, 2012, 02:23:56 PM
I'm thinking about in the next few months buying new speakers.  My old ones were damaged, but still work.

Anyway I think that I'm willing to expand my budget.  I spent $300 on the pair of towers that I'm using.  I'm willing to make my budget $1000 this time around.  Whether it still be floor standing or bookshelfs + speaker stands, what do you all recommend?

If you have advice about auditioning speakers, please provide that as well.

I'm looking for neutral with a great sound stage for a medium sized (apartment sized) living room.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 09, 2012, 02:28:20 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 09, 2012, 02:23:56 PM
I'm thinking about in the next few months buying new speakers.  My old ones were damaged, but still work.

Anyway I think that I'm willing to expand my budget.  I spent $300 on the pair of towers that I'm using.  I'm willing to make my budget $1000 this time around.  Whether it still be floor standing or bookshelfs + speaker stands, what do you all recommend?

If you have advice about auditioning speakers, please provide that as well.

I'm looking for neutral with a great sound stage for a medium sized (apartment sized) living room.

Any thoughts?

Try Dynaudio, Elac, Vienna Acoustics, Usher (maybe Thiel, Nola...). Bookshelfs or standmounts are more cost effective (entry-level standfloors cost more or same as mid-level standmounts). You get some extra sound with mid-level range and less bass but it might be worth it. For 1k $ go with the second hand market. Try audiogon.com.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-usher-audio-cp-6311-loudspeakers-2012-09-05-speakers-75207
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/monitors-dynaudio-contour-1-3-mkii-cherry-finish-2012-08-27-speakers-22201
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-vienna-acoustics-bach-grand-loudspeakers-2012-08-24-speakers-06824
I have listened to all of them. Enough resolution, some speed, nice timbral qualities, some transparency, nice dynamics, acceptable imaging. The Dyn's have a lot of bass and are very neutral. The Usher's are a little on the warm side. Carefull matching with amp, source and cables are a must for all. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on September 09, 2012, 02:42:44 PM
Quote from: Scots John on January 24, 2012, 08:10:24 AM
My setup is as humble as hell can be humble.  These are the components I use to listen to music.  Not swanky and costs less than £100.  That is not to say that when I can afford to, I will not hesitate to upgrade to something to the tune of five grand.  But not at this time...so this does just fine.

(http://asda.scene7.com/is/image/Asda/511516?hei=800&wid=600&resmode=sharp&op_usm=1.1,0.5,0,0&defaultimage=default_details_GM)
(http://asda.scene7.com/is/image/Asda/508752?hei=800&wid=600&resmode=sharp&op_usm=1.1,0.5,0,0&defaultimage=default_details_GM)

Bollocks.  I'm giving music up now.   :'(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on September 09, 2012, 02:44:24 PM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 09, 2012, 02:15:48 PM
@ Petrarch. You might benefit from covering those windows. Glass is a terrible reflective material. And the scene and layering might also benefit from this. The room is also pretty empty and resonances could be overwhelming. I used to have a Squeezebox Classic some years ago. Used it with the Weiss interlinked by digital cable. I presume you are using it with the Esoteric DAC. It might limit its qualities. Mine ate some transparency and some prat so I got rid of the SB. Now I'm very pleased with my MacBook.

I haven't found that many issues with resonances or reflections from the windows--layering and soundstage is quite good, with depths of 30-40 ft, and the tone of the instruments and voices is quite engaging. That said, the room is by no means perfect; in a proper room, these speakers are some of the best I have ever heard. The room should really be seen as just another component in the system, and that is why I plan on having a dedicated, treated and well-dimensioned room for the system when we have our own place.

I only use the Squeezebox for the music I have on the computer and it isn't my main source. I am still an avid buyer of CDs, and for those I use the Esoteric.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on September 09, 2012, 02:48:37 PM
Quote from: Scots John on September 09, 2012, 02:42:44 PM
Bollocks.  I'm giving music up now.   :'(

Why would you do that?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 09, 2012, 02:55:18 PM
Quote from: petrarch on September 09, 2012, 02:44:24 PM
I haven't found that many issues with resonances or reflections from the windows--layering and soundstage is quite good, with depths of 30-40 ft, and the tone of the instruments and voices is quite engaging. That said, the room is by no means perfect; in a proper room, these speakers are some of the best I have ever heard. The room should really be seen as just another component in the system, and that is why I plan on having a dedicated, treated and well-dimensioned room for the system when we have our own place.

I only use the Squeezebox for the music I have on the computer and it isn't my main source. I am still an avid buyer of CDs, and for those I use the Esoteric.

Very true. Unfortunately rooms are somtimes pretty complicated components. Mine isn't perfect either. I have a very tall room (3 meters) and I have some resonances when some tenors reach high C's. Other than that, nothing really bothers me. I stuffed all the shelves with books, got a pretty 'fat' rug, and all my windows (3) are covered by thick curtains. ;D
Good luck with your dedicated room. For me it's a little late so I'll just say night-night.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on September 09, 2012, 03:01:55 PM
Quote from: The new erato on September 09, 2012, 02:23:09 PM
Having this on loan for a possible purchase:

(http://www.tivolihifi.com.au/sites/default/files/imagecache/product/yba_08_0.jpg)

YBA Passion 400 Pre Amplifier

I heard YBA was bought by a Chinese company.  Is that true?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on September 09, 2012, 03:04:57 PM
Quote from: Scots John on September 09, 2012, 02:42:44 PM
Bollocks.  I'm giving music up now.   :'(

I honestly do not think the level of your enjoyment of your music collection is directly proportional to the total cost of your audio system ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ataraxia on September 09, 2012, 03:06:06 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on September 09, 2012, 03:04:57 PM
I honestly do not think the level of your enjoyment of your music collection is directly proportional to the total cost of your audio system ...

Word.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on September 09, 2012, 03:09:26 PM
It's taken me thirty years to finally be in the position to do a proper listening and screening room.

(http://animationresources.org/pics/clclubhouse.jpg)

I've got a Mac Mini server driving a 1080p projection system with 5:1 sound. The 10 foot screen comes down from behind the front beam. 30 TB of online protected storage. Yamaha Amp, Sony bluray, combination of JBL towers and custom 70s cabinet speakers with Klipsch bookshelves in the rear. My sub is a top of the line Sunfire. The sound system roars. The best I've ever had, and I've been working at it for thirty years.

The trick I've learned is that the speakers and how they're placed in the room are all that really matters. Careful equalization too. Amps and players don't contribute much to sound quality. Even inexpensive ones sound great if the speakers are good and set up well.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 09, 2012, 03:46:37 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 09, 2012, 02:23:56 PMI'm looking for neutral with a great sound stage for a medium sized (apartment sized) living room.  Any thoughts?


New: Monitor Audio, B&W, Focal, Philharmonic Audio Philharmonitor.  Maybe think of some of the kits out there.  Madisound sells Zaph Audio speaker designs, among others.  John Krutke, the man behind Zaph, is a measurements first and last kind of guy, and some of his designs are both affordable and use high end drivers (eg, ScanSpeak Revelators, Seas Prestige, etc).  His site is most informative, as well.  Seas kits are also available, including designs that use their Excel drivers, which are some of the best on the market.  I've come to the conclusion, after buying two pairs of Salk Sound speakers, that most speaker brands are rip-offs.  If you can swing custom, consider it.  (Salk Sound, Philharmonic Audio, Selah, Tyler Acoustics.) 

Used: The same brands listed above, just moving up the price scale.  The Vienna Acoustics Bach mentioned before are very good.  I had a pair for a couple years, but had to sell them because they are too warm.  Look at Audiogon at the price range you want, there are tons of options.

(I have a pair of Joseph Audio RM22s Mk IIs I am willing to part with for a song - $700-ish.  Just sayin'.) 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on September 09, 2012, 04:04:14 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on September 09, 2012, 03:04:57 PM
I honestly do not think the level of your enjoyment of your music collection is directly proportional to the total cost of your audio system ...

Splendid.  I feel much better about this now!  :D   
I will leave this particular thread and never return until I progress to audio hardware that reflects my nursery 'audiophile-ness.'   Some people are on a different level here, I'll come back when I get there, which I probably will, but it will be some time...   :P

***runs away to buy a tape recorder***
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 09, 2012, 07:19:40 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 09, 2012, 02:23:56 PM
I'm looking for neutral with a great sound stage for a medium sized (apartment sized) living room.

I had the same requirements years ago when looking for speakers. I found that high performance bookshelves with these exact characteristics weren't so easy to find.

Auditioning as many as I could was the only way to go. I even managed to swing a couple of home demos, which really helped. Ultimately I ruled out B&W (although the 705's and 805's were quite impressive), Monitor, Sonus Faber, Linn, KEF, and any number of speakers whose names I forget.

I also did some research (mostly reading hi-fi mags with quality online archives of reviews) and found a dealer in my area who carried Revel speakers. At the time he didn't have any Revel bookshelves on hand but the floor-standers he demo'd for me sounded so open, full, and wide-ranging I gambled and bought the bookshelves. It was a good gamble as these "bookshelves" totally out-performed all the others for range and depth. And neutral is the name of the game with the Revels.

Unfortunately this was all about eight years ago and the industry has obviously made many inroads since then but if I were in the market again Revel would be my first stop.

Anyway, just my two cents...


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 10, 2012, 05:01:48 AM
Quote from: bigshot on September 09, 2012, 03:09:26 PM
It's taken me thirty years to finally be in the position to do a proper listening and screening room.

(http://animationresources.org/pics/clclubhouse.jpg)

I've got a Mac Mini server driving a 1080p projection system with 5:1 sound. The 10 foot screen comes down from behind the front beam. 30 TB of online protected storage. Yamaha Amp, Sony bluray, combination of JBL towers and custom 70s cabinet speakers with Klipsch bookshelves in the rear. My sub is a top of the line Sunfire. The sound system roars. The best I've ever had, and I've been working at it for thirty years.

The trick I've learned is that the speakers and how they're placed in the room are all that really matters. Careful equalization too. Amps and players don't contribute much to sound quality. Even inexpensive ones sound great if the speakers are good and set up well.

Amplifiers, players, loudspeakers, cables, the room, and even the AC matter a lot. Equalization? :o I want to hear the exact information on the audio support whether it's a vinyl, a CD/DVD-A/SACD or a hi-res file. This is what fidelity is all about. I don't want to hear a pumped up bass, a lowered treble... Just the recording itself. True hi-fi components, audiophile grade components don't have any switches for bass, treble of mids. This is also valid for software. Experience depends strictly upon the best system you've heard (quality/price wise). You know how they say: you can only get better if your opponent betters you.

@ Scots John - Music is not to be given up no matter what your hi-fi. You definitely enjoy music more if you're an ignorant who doesn't give a damn on what the music sounds like. If the music touches you as much as it should, nothing else ever matters (no offense - ignorant doesn't have a bad connotation in the phrase above). Audiophilia is a messy hobby. Classical music, opera, jazz definitely sound better on an audiophile system but if you are a perfectionist (and audiophiles are perfectionists), you always tend to push the limits farther and farther. That robbs you a part of the pleasure of listening. You become more analytical (about the system) when the only thing that should matter is the music. I have difficulties in enjoying music on a sub-level hi-fi system. Once you get accustomed to resolution, speed, transparency, control, neutrality, imaging, tonality and so on and so forth, things only get worse..  ;D It's like getting out of a Porsche and getting in a Datsun. So sit back and enjoy the music. Music is an art. With a magnifying glass you might focus too much on the cracks in the painting. Coopmv is right: the level of the enjoyment of your music collection is not directly proportional to the total cost of your audio system ...:)

@ Todd - I wouldn't say that Vienna Acoustics Bach are warm. Of course this is just my opinion. I think the rest of the system made them sound like that. As I said before, mathing is critical and you can only judge a component in a certain system. There is an overall character but from my point of view Vienna Acoustics loudspeakers are not warm.

@ Dancing Divertimentian - Revels are often displayed in shows with Jeff Rowland amplification and source. From what I read and heard Revels sound pretty nice but I doubt their price fits David's budget.

@ DavidW - The best thing you can do is take a trip to a few audiophile dealers and listen to the same music on a few systems. Although inexperienced your ear should tell you what you should consider buying. Second hand market should definitely be an option though.

@ Coopmv - Yes, YBA belongs to Shanling although I doubt they interfere too much in their products. At least I hope so. I had the honor to listen to a YBA system (YBA Passion 1000, Meridian 808 Signature CD Player, Raidho Eben X-3, Roksan Radius 5, Audio Technica AT-F3 II, Roksan DX 2, Audioquest cabling) and everything sounded just like it should. Hope the french will hold tight on their position. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on September 10, 2012, 05:28:01 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on September 09, 2012, 03:01:55 PM
I heard YBA was bought by a Chinese company.  Is that true?
That is true. Though this was built while they still were French.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on September 10, 2012, 05:40:10 AM
I now play a Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD player 

(http://www.productwiki.com/upload/images/sony_scd_xa5400es.jpg)

as well as a Wadia 402 CD player

(http://www.shows.soundstagelive.com/shows/ces2005/jan07a/wadia.jpg)

through the YBA and into one of these:

(http://www.gzhifi.com/as/images/201108/1314409622656949137.jpg)

a Conrad-Johnson MV 2500

and into a pair of these:

(http://www.congaudio.com.vn/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/EUPHONIA_MS5_4fee8b5d0631d.jpg)

Dali Euphonia MS 5.

And i do agree that speakers and room are the defining factors for a HiFi set up, though obviously all active components matter.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 10, 2012, 05:44:06 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 10, 2012, 05:01:48 AM@ Todd - I wouldn't say that Vienna Acoustics Bach are warm.



I use Naim gear, which is not exactly known for being excessively warm.  The speakers were warm.  They were good, just not as good as Josephs, or now Salks.  Third party measurements of VA speakers show that other models are warm.  That's one of the traits retailers have used to sell them.  You're the first person I've come across who has said they are not warm.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on September 10, 2012, 05:48:36 AM
I have the Beethovens (the former model, not he last "grand") in my living room (what I've shown above is from my listening room) and they are definitively in my experience relatively "warm", forgiving and musical, and not given to excesses of detailing (which in the long run often is tiring). Of course, it all runs down to what you match them with.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on September 10, 2012, 06:08:50 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 09, 2012, 02:23:56 PM
I'm thinking about in the next few months buying new speakers.  My old ones were damaged, but still work.

Anyway I think that I'm willing to expand my budget.  I spent $300 on the pair of towers that I'm using.  I'm willing to make my budget $1000 this time around.  Whether it still be floor standing or bookshelfs + speaker stands, what do you all recommend?

If you have advice about auditioning speakers, please provide that as well.

I'm looking for neutral with a great sound stage for a medium sized (apartment sized) living room.

Any thoughts?
$1000 isn't much for speakers but you can get satisfying sound at that price. Definitely check out Monitor's RS6, if it's still being made. Great value leaders in affordable loudspeakers have long been the Canadian companies with government subsidized R&D, particularly PSB, Paradigm, & Mirage. I'd suggest checking out their offerings in your price range.

When I'm auditioning equipment, I used to take a selection of LPs with a variety of music that I knew well. That became a small stack of CDs. Now I burn a CD with tracks such as solo piano, percussive jazz, string quartet, sultry female voice, opera, orchestral...you get the point. I train my ears to focus on particular aspects of each track--the crispness and shimmer of a jazz drummer's cymbal, sibilance of vocals and "bloom" around the voice, soundstaging of the orchestra and jazz combo, clarity and detail of multiple instruments, and perhaps most important, does it sound like music? Does the piano sound like a real piano, the bass like a bass? (If you don't know, best get to some live performances or you won't have a meaningful standard of reference.)

Re. soundstage -- if that's most important, you might be pleasantly surprised at the way a good pair of small bookshelf speakers can disappear when properly set up.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on September 10, 2012, 06:16:46 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 10, 2012, 06:08:50 AM

Re. soundstage -- if that's most important, you might be pleasantly surprised at the way a good pair of small bookshelf speakers can disappear when properly set up.
definitely agree. While lacking some bass and being slightly limites in dynamics, in a reasonably sized room a par of two way small speakers can do some things surprisingly right, e.g. midtone realism (most important) and imaging - both extremely important for realistic music reproduction. I have a pair of small Ushers (int the 1000 USD class) in my seaside cabin, and on some material they are wonderfully realistic.   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on September 10, 2012, 07:45:27 AM
Quote from: The new erato on September 10, 2012, 06:16:46 AM
definitely agree. While lacking some bass and being slightly limites in dynamics, in a reasonably sized room a par of two way small speakers can do some things surprisingly right, e.g. midtone realism (most important) and imaging - both extremely important for realistic music reproduction. I have a pair of small Ushers (int the 1000 USD class) in my seaside cabin, and on some material they are wonderfully realistic.   
I had a pair of Rogers LS3/5a speakers back around the time DaveW was born. God only knows where they ended up during my misspent youth. Not much bottom end but beautifully open and the soundstage was incredible (listened mostly to jazz and rock back then). I'm not even sure if my current Gallo Reference 3.1s are as good at imaging as they were!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 08:38:26 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 10, 2012, 05:01:48 AM
Amplifiers, players, loudspeakers, cables, the room, and even the AC matter a lot. Equalization? :o I want to hear the exact information on the audio support whether it's a vinyl, a CD/DVD-A/SACD or a hi-res file. This is what fidelity is all about. I don't want to hear a pumped up bass, a lowered treble... Just the recording itself. True hi-fi components, audiophile grade components don't have any switches for bass, treble of mids. This is also valid for software. Experience depends strictly upon the best system you've heard (quality/price wise). You know how they say: you can only get better if your opponent betters you.

You don't understand the purpose of equalization at all. It isn't to "pump up bass". It's to balance frequencies to perfect neutrality. When you put a speaker into a room, no matter what speaker, its frequency response changes dramatically. Every individual speaker and room combination creates its own particular alteration to the sound. The way you return the sound to its correct balance is through room treatment and equalization.

I've supervised recording, editing and mixing for TV and CD release as part of my job, and I've worked in dozens of sound studios. Every single one of them had a head engineer whose job it was to calibrate the equipment and equalize the output of the studio monitors to a completely balanced frequency response. That way, if you start a project at one studio and take it to another studio to finish, it will sound EXACTLY the same. If you want to hear what they hear in the studio, you have to calibrate your system to a balanced response to match theirs.

I've been working in audio and video for over thirty years, and I can tell you that a lot of the "common knowledge" among audiophiles is totally wrong. It's misconceptions based on old ideas dragged over from the analogue era mixed with snake oil peddled by high end audio dealers. If you understand the science of how sound works and go from there, keeping your focus on the Established thresholds of human perception, you'll get a lot further towards the goal of perfect sound than if you put yourself in the hands of people who want to sell you something.

Getting fantastic sound doesn't require a lot of money. In fact, except for speakers and headphones, there's very little corellation between cost and quality. It's possible to put together a fantastic system on a budget. You just need to put your money where it matters, and not spend a lot on things like high end CD players where even a $150 Sony bluray player performs to the exact same specs as the most expensive audiophile player.

I know quite a bit about sound reproduction and I'm happy to share if you're interested.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on September 10, 2012, 09:00:42 AM
Quote from: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 08:38:26 AM
I've supervised recording, editing and mixing for TV and CD release as part of my job, and I've worked in dozens of sound studios. Every single one of them had a head engineer whose job it was to calibrate the equipment and equalize the output of the studio monitors to a completely balanced frequency response. That way, if you start a project at one studio and take it to another studio to finish, it will sound EXACTLY the same. If you want to hear what they hear in the studio, you have to calibrate your system to a balanced response to match theirs.

It is worth noting that room treatment is by far the better option. Equalization can indeed provide a neutral and balanced response but it is quite dependent on the listening/measurement position, which means you will have to be in that exact position to enjoy that response.

Of course, for listening at home equalization is a reasonable compromise, since it avoids littering the room with perhaps ugly absorption or diffusion panels. In fact, a number of high-end speaker manufacturers provide gain controls in the speakers for this purpose, although they aren't typically as flexible as a proper outboard equalizer--it's more of a capability for coarse speaker-to-room tuning and avoid major resonances.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 09:13:02 AM
Room treatment and equalization are two different things. One isn't a replacement for the other. When you're starting a speaker installation you deal with all the room issues. When you've done that to the best of your ability, you equalize to flatten it all out to a balanced response. Room treatment is about eliminating reflections and equalization is about balancing the overall response. They go hand in hand, and one affects the effectiveness of the other.

As you say, there are compromises to be made in a space that one also lives in. For instance, while a studio can focus all of its sound on the mixing board, a home stereo has to sound reasonably good from several positions in the room so the whole family can listen, not just the occupant of one chair in the sweet spot. Also, accomodation has to be made for furniture and things wives care an awful lot about. Few people have the freedom to totally design the whole space around listening.

There are simple things you can do though without covering the room in sound diffuser panels. Speaer position is important. They should be at least 1/5 into the room. Not pressed up against the wall. The two mains should never be more than 8 feet apart, unless you have a center channel to bridge the gap. Large windows and sliding glass doors should be covered with curtains. The floor plan should be open, with room for the bass to spread out through the room along the floor. And the main midrange speakers should be ear height, not higher or lower. If you have a 5:1 setup, the level balance between the six speakers is critical to creating a three dimensional soundstage.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 10, 2012, 09:39:15 AM
Quote from: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 09:13:02 AMSpeaker position is important. They should be at least 1/5 into the room. Not pressed up against the wall.



Generally yes, but there are some speakers designed for boundary placement. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on September 10, 2012, 09:44:33 AM
Thanks everyone for the advise so far.  I shall have to make a trip or several to audition speakers.  I'm nearby a few large cities so there should be plenty of possibilities.  As far as well known recordings that I can latch on to specific details I think that a couple of favorites Bernstein/VPO Mahler 5 and the Beatles' White Album should do nicely.  All of you are also giving me brands to look into, which is much better than where I started from. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 09:51:51 AM
One very important tip. In the listening room of the retail store you go to, have the salesman show you how to work the switcher. Don't let him control it. Twice I've caught salesmen with their back to the equipment and their hands behind their back surrepticiously reach to turn the bass up to make me like one speaker over another. You wouldn't believe how pissy they get when you call them on this sort of thing.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 10, 2012, 10:16:46 AM
If I have to repeat myself, no problem. Pro gear and audiophile gear are different things. Audiophile gear has no balance for bass, mids and highs. There are some exceptions but they are extremely few. Usually loudspeakers have this kind of buttons and knobs - many have time alignment settings. And how do you ''equalize to flatten it all out to a balanced response''. By ear? It's the wrong way to do it, my friend.

@ Todd - I've listened to 2 systems with Naim gear. One with Naim Supernait + Arcam CD37 + Naim DAC + Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M + Naim NAC A5 and the second one with Naim Nait 5i + Slim Devices Squeezebox + Cabasse MT30 Jersey/Epos M12.2 + Naim NAC A5. For me Naim was pretty mellow and warm. Total lack of dynamics (Mahler, Brukner, Beethoven, etc.), laid back, hardly rezolute, lack of speed and prat. If for an 8ohm loudspeaker things might be acceptable, stuff goes completely wrong on 6 and 4 ohms impedance loudspeakers. The lack of power is chronical. I've listened to Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grand, Mozart Grand Symphony Edition and Bach Grand. I couldn't say VA are cold and/or analytical but I would definitely not call them warm. Maybe with a tube amplifier... :D
I'll try to limit my opinions - don't want to offend or contradict anybody too much.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 10:29:02 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 10, 2012, 10:16:46 AMhow do you ''equalize to flatten it all out to a balanced response''.

Using two octave sweeps from a signal generator, starting at the low end working up the range, increasing the volume a bit for each pass from 20 to 20.

If you're interested in more details about how this is done, I'd be happy to share.

Worrying about the noise from a simple tone control pot at the expense of being able to balance the sound is patently absurd. An unequalized stereo system with no tone controls is like a race car without a steering wheel. High end audio is full of absurdities like that.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on September 10, 2012, 10:47:22 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 10, 2012, 10:16:46 AM
I'll try to limit my opinions - don't want to offend or contradict anybody too much.
Na, don't worry about it. Some folks just get offended by any opinions that aren't exactly identical with their own. And then, because they feel offended, think that you offended them, thus giving them license to be intentionally offensive in return.

Differing opinions not only make horse races but are the means of opening our minds, improving our understanding, and even learning things we didn't know (often radically different from what we thought we knew but only believed).

Of course, once people demonstrate that they're determined not to learn anything and are not interested in exchanging opinions but only in puffing up their own egos by demonizing people who think differently, then you know it's just a waste of time and energy to try to have a dialogue with them. Remember that some folks just can't tolerate diversity of opinion...and research suggests that this is not a moral issue. These people don't choose to be this way; it's a psychological condition. Rather than judging them or trying to "make" them see sense (which only stiffens their resistance), the best thing we can do is to feel compassion for their handicap and move on to where we can be helpful.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 10, 2012, 11:03:48 AM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 10, 2012, 10:16:46 AM@ Todd - I've listened to 2 systems with Naim gear.



I didn't hear the systems you heard, but the traits you use to describe Naim are atypical.  I've not heard Cabasse speakers, but Naim paired with Sonus Faber doesn't produce the sound you describe in my experience.  (I've owned Sonus Fabers as well).  The room(s) no doubt had a large impact.  As to VA not being warm, again, most people describe them as warm.  Third party frequency plot measurements show that some models are warm by design (ie, a bump in mid bass, a depression in low treble, measured anechoically or "quasi"-anechoically), though the Schoenberg and Klimt series speakers appear to be voiced differently.  In the context of my system, when I switched from VAs to Joseph Audio, the improvement in clarity, etc was immediate and obvious.  The VAs were too warm in comparison, as well as not particularly detailed.  Of course, I tend to prefer metal main drivers, and I use Naim separates, where the lack of power you mention has never been a problem.  Of course, it wasn't a problem when I used the 30 watt Nait 5 to drive the VA Bachs.  I'd hit peaks that had to be in the 95 dB range (based on subsequent listening and measurements).  I can drive my current speakers to 107 dB peaks no problem (which I did one time as a test, and will not do again; I want to keep my hearing), and they are 6 Ohm.   

Whenever I hear or read people mention a lack of power with any amplifier, I'm always curious just how loud they listen, and how large the room is.  Perhaps I just listen quietly, but I listen at a volume with peaks usually in the 80-85 dB range.  (I tend to listen a bit louder with non classical recordings.)  At those volumes, very little power is needed, and even in dynamic passages little power is needed, and then only briefly.  My room is definitely not big, so that helps, but running out of power requires playing pretty loud in a pretty good sized room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 11:15:07 AM
I was fine with relatively low power and a single set of full range speakers until I moved and set up my listening room. The system that sounded great in a large apartment sounded anaemic in a large room with high ceilings. The size of the room is most of the reason for needing more power and more and bigger speakers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Robert on September 10, 2012, 12:43:08 PM
Quote from: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 11:15:07 AM
I was fine with relatively low power and a single set of full range speakers until I moved and set up my listening room. The system that sounded great in a large apartment sounded anaemic in a large room with high ceilings. The size of the room is most of the reason for needing more power and more and bigger speakers.
Many years ago I had a pre-war apartment in New York City.  I had a Mac amp. KLH 9's. But, to get things right I had a Soundcraftsman Eq and a Velodyne woof....It took awhile but when I finally nailed it, it was fabulous.....
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 02:09:11 PM
The more speakers in a system, the harder it is to balance, but oh! The sound!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: lisa needs braces on September 14, 2012, 01:59:46 PM
So I'm considering buying some book shelf speakers for my PC. These were recommended, as they have a built in amplifier:

http://www.amazon.com/Audioengine-A5-Black-Powered-Speaker/dp/B000OABTPQ

Supposing I eschew this and opt for actual bookshelf speakers + amplifier, what would you guys for a total max budget of $1k?

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on September 14, 2012, 02:15:45 PM
I tend to like Yamaha receivers. You don't need to spend a lot to get a good one. Spend the money you save on speakers. I have a nice set of Klipsch bookshelves, but speakers are a personal taste. Best to audition them before buying.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on September 15, 2012, 02:48:09 PM
Quote from: bigshot on September 14, 2012, 02:15:45 PM
I tend to like Yamaha receivers. You don't need to spend a lot to get a good one. Spend the money you save on speakers. I have a nice set of Klipsch bookshelves, but speakers are a personal taste. Best to audition them before buying.

Among the mass-produced Japanese audio electronics, Yamaha has been consistently more innovative without causing one to break his bank.  Yeah, Luxman and Accuphase are higher-end but they will also cost you considerably more ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on September 20, 2012, 02:16:41 PM
Quote from: -abe- on September 14, 2012, 01:59:46 PM
So I'm considering buying some book shelf speakers for my PC. These were recommended, as they have a built in amplifier:

http://www.amazon.com/Audioengine-A5-Black-Powered-Speaker/dp/B000OABTPQ

Supposing I eschew this and opt for actual bookshelf speakers + amplifier, what would you guys for a total max budget of $1k?

If you will use them for a PC, getting good active speakers and a D/AC that's also a de-facto pre-amp is very likely to get you the best bang for your buck.

Of course one SHOULD absolutely, necessarily audition one's speakers before buying it, but since you won't (nothing against you -- I'm just taking my cues from the laws of average) you might be well advised in that direction. (As opposed to finding passive speakers that better suit your taste within the same budget and get an amp to suit them. The advantage of passive speakers being that there are more to choose from in any given price range.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 03:08:25 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 20, 2012, 02:16:41 PM
If you will use them for a PC, getting good active speakers and a D/AC that's also a de-facto pre-amp is very likely to get the best bang for your buck.

Of course one SHOULD absolutely, necessarily audition one's speakers before buying it, but since you won't (nothing against you -- I'm just taking my cues from the laws of average) you might be well advised in that direction. (As opposed to finding passive speakers that better suit your taste within the same budget and get an amp to suit them. The advantage of passive speakers being that there are more to choose from in any given price range.)
One of the selling points for audioengine is that shipping's included in the price and they offer a 30-day in home audition and if you don't like them, send 'em back for a full refund:
Quote30 Day Audition
We feel we've created products with the sound, features, and overall quality of systems priced much higher. Purchase any Audioengine product from our online store, try it out, and if you're not completely satisfied with the great sound and excellent looks just contact us at support@audioengineusa.com within 30 days of delivery for return instructions. After you receive an email back from us, return the product in its original packaging in like-new, undamaged condition with all included accessories and we'll give you a full refund of your product purchase price. Please note that the Audioengine 30-day audition applies to products purchased directly from our US online web store only.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on September 21, 2012, 02:23:35 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 20, 2012, 03:08:25 PM
One of the selling points for audioengine is that shipping's included in the price and they offer a 30-day in home audition and if you don't like them, send 'em back for a full refund:

From the rather convincing negative reviews of those speakers, that might well be necessary.

Incidentally, I wasn't in any way trying to recommend the above speakers with my general point about active speakers being a logical, suitable solution to PC-based sound systems.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 06:01:51 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 21, 2012, 02:23:35 AM
From the rather convincing negative reviews of those speakers, that might well be necessary.

Incidentally, I wasn't in any way trying to recommend the above speakers with my general point about active speakers being a logical, suitable solution to PC-based sound systems.
Not at all. I thought your point was sound and your advice good, as usual. 8)

After seeing rave reviews of the Audioengine 2 in TAS & Stereophile a few years back, I was sorely tempted to try a pair for my desktop PC, but never got around to it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 06:18:15 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 06:01:51 AM
Not at all. I thought your point was sound and your advice good, as usual. 8)

After seeing rave reviews of the Audioengine 2 in TAS & Stereophile a few years back, I was sorely tempted to try a pair for my desktop PC, but never got around to it.

David,
While I was looking at those speakers last night, I followed a link and found this DAC:

[asin]B006IPH5H2[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HaiRPjzFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any thoughts on this? Rave reviews on Amazon don't convince me any more.... :-\

8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on September 21, 2012, 06:19:59 AM
For sound from a PC, the most important concept is Optical.

I find it critical to eliminate any electrical connection between the PC and the electronics that generates an audio signal because a PC is filled with unspeakable electrical noise, and even the most elaborate means to filter it out are fraught with difficulty.  Even if the engineers come up with a system that works perfectly in their lab, it might not work perfectly with your particular setup.   An external USB DAC is better than an internal DAC, but there is still an electrical connection (the USB cable) which can propagate digital noise.

(http://www.musicalfidelity.com/uploads/catalogerfiles/v-linkii/1_vlinkii-front.png)

Therefore, rather than a USB coupled DAC, I use a USB coupled TOSLINK adapter.   It generates optical signals which go to the DAC.  You can get cheaper ones and more expensive ones, but I have the Musical Fidelity V-link.  (Getting a good TOSLINK converter is good, because in the TOSLINK format, the clocking of your DAC coupled to the data flow, and irregular data flow can affect your sound quality.)  I used to send the output to the digital input of my receiver, but now I route it to a CD player which has a digital input.  The optical digital signal can also be sent to a headphone amp or external DAC with an appropriate input, like the one that GB referenced above.  What I like about the optical digital output is that it allows you to leverage the audio equipment that you already have, without contaminating it with an electrical connection to a computer.



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 21, 2012, 07:35:00 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 21, 2012, 06:19:59 AM
For sound from a PC, the most important concept is Optical.

I find it critical to eliminate any electrical connection between the PC and the electronics that generates an audio signal because a PC is filled with unspeakable electrical noise, and even the most elaborate means to filter it out are fraught with difficulty.  Even if the engineers come up with a system that works perfectly in their lab, it might not work perfectly with your particular setup.   An external USB DAC is better than an internal DAC, but there is still an electrical connection (the USB cable) which can propagate digital noise.

(http://www.musicalfidelity.com/uploads/catalogerfiles/v-linkii/1_vlinkii-front.png)

Therefore, rather than a USB coupled DAC, I use a USB coupled TOSLINK adapter.   It generates optical signals which go to the DAC.  You can get cheaper ones and more expensive ones, but I have the Musical Fidelity V-link.  (Getting a good TOSLINK converter is good, because in the TOSLINK format, the clocking of your DAC coupled to the data flow, and irregular data flow can affect your sound quality.)...

I've heard your argument for optical S/PDIF connection from various sources, but opinions aren't unanimous.  Other people argue that TOSLINK optical induces more of the "irregular data flow", (a.k.a. "jitter"), than does coaxial S/PDIF, (obviating the lower noising advantage of optical).

Personally I use coax S/PDIF using a long, (30 foot), cable.  Here again with relation to "jitter", the longer cable reduces it by eliminating the effect of electrical signal reflections caused by impedance mismatching between source (computer) and target (DAC). (There is plenty of discussion of this at www.audioasylum.com in Digital and PC Audio forums.)

Other people recommend USB for computer-to-DAC connection provided the connection is "asynchronous", i.e. the data flow is controlled at the DAC end rather than at the computer end.  Again the goal is to reduce "jitter".  Of course many computers don't have S/PDIF output, whether optical or coaxial, so USB is the only option.  BTW, the newer, Musical Fidelity V-LINK II provides asynchronous USB connection. USB potentially solves other digital transmission issues that S/PDIF cannot, such as independent clocking -- don't ask me! search for more detailed discussion at AudioAsylum.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 07:48:46 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 06:18:15 AMAny thoughts on this? Rave reviews on Amazon don't convince me any more.... :-\
I've never heard it, Gurn, but if I were in the market I would probably consider it, especially because of their in-home audition policy, its handling of 24/192 files, and acceptance of both optical and USB input.

Links to favorable reviews on their site here: http://audioengineusa.com/Store/audioengine-d1-reviews#.UFyKpI2PVyw (http://audioengineusa.com/Store/audioengine-d1-reviews#.UFyKpI2PVyw)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 08:00:31 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 07:48:46 AM
I've never heard it, Gurn, but if I were in the market I would probably consider it, especially because of their in-home audition policy, its handling of 24/192 files, and acceptance of both optical and USB input.

Links to favorable reviews on their site here: http://audioengineusa.com/Store/audioengine-d1-reviews#.UFyKpI2PVyw (http://audioengineusa.com/Store/audioengine-d1-reviews#.UFyKpI2PVyw)

OK, thanks, David. I have already heard and given some thought to the issue that Scarpia raises. But as Fëanor points out, you have to work with what you have, and I am not going to replace a year-old computer just for that. I have been getting decent sound with the crap I already have, so it's hard to see where a solid upgrade is not going to help out somehow.  More than anything, I am curious about that company, and also if the specs on this unit are as good as or better than comparably priced ones. We'll see what the reviewers have to say. :)

Thanks,
8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on September 21, 2012, 08:34:40 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on September 21, 2012, 07:35:00 AM
I've heard your argument for optical S/PDIF connection from various sources, but opinions aren't unanimous.  Other people argue that TOSLINK optical induces more of the "irregular data flow", (a.k.a. "jitter"), than does coaxial S/PDIF, (obviating the lower noising advantage of optical).

Personally I use coax S/PDIF using a long, (30 foot), cable.  Here again with relation to "jitter", the longer cable reduces it by eliminating the effect of electrical signal reflections caused by impedance mismatching between source (computer) and target (DAC). (There is plenty of discussion of this at www.audioasylum.com in Digital and PC Audio forums.)

Other people recommend USB for computer-to-DAC connection provided the connection is "asynchronous", i.e. the data flow is controlled at the DAC end rather than at the computer end.  Again the goal is to reduce "jitter".  Of course many computers don't have S/PDIF output, whether optical or coaxial, so USB is the only option.  BTW, the newer, Musical Fidelity V-LINK II provides asynchronous USB connection. USB potentially solves other digital transmission issues that S/PDIF cannot, such as independent clocking -- don't ask me! search for more detailed discussion at AudioAsylum.

Jitter is one of the biggest red-herrings is the audiophile universe, where the inability of actually measure an effect causes it to be obsessed about even more.  My CD player and multimedia receivers both have phase locked loops which clock the DAC with immeasurably low jitter even if there is some jitter in the input digital stream.   

I have absolutely no concerns about data flow through USB.  USB is much much faster than necessary than any audio stream required, and data would be sent in very short bursts to replenish the data buffer, allowing the data to be clocked by a separate circuit, hopefully at uniform rate.   What I am concerned about is you have your $1000 headphones, connect to your $1000 amplifier, and the ground wire of that amplifier is coupled to a $0.50 switching power regulator in the USB driver in your computer that is zapping it with large voltage spikes.   I have found that the resulting noise can be quite audible.  The optical coupling means there is no electrical connection, and the electronics in the amplifier are uncoupled from whatever is going on in the computer power supply.

As to why you think the longer cable reduces jitter, I can't make heads nor tails of it.  The reflection comes at the attachment point, making the cable longer will not reduce reflection.  It will make the reflection come after a longer delay, which can only make jitter worse. 

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on September 21, 2012, 08:38:01 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2012, 08:00:31 AM
OK, thanks, David. I have already heard and given some thought to the issue that Scarpia raises. But as Fëanor points out, you have to work with what you have, and I am not going to replace a year-old computer just for that.

The optical output would not require you to replace your computer, just add a modest external USB peripheral.  Actually, your computer might even have optical output.  The Intel motherboard on my old Pentium 4 has one, and is always putting out an optical version of whatever sound is being processed.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on September 21, 2012, 09:01:11 AM
I swear I told you Gurn to just optical out from your pc to your receiver awhile back... 8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 21, 2012, 12:36:41 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 21, 2012, 08:34:40 AM
Jitter is one of the biggest red-herrings is the audiophile universe, where the inability of actually measure an effect causes it to be obsessed about even more.  My CD player and multimedia receivers both have phase locked loops which clock the DAC with immeasurably low jitter even if there is some jitter in the input digital stream.  ...

As I understand, full reclocking will eliminate jitter caused by transmission problems, however phase-locked loop doesn't do this, (again, as I've construed from the experts -- which I personally am not).  By the way, asynchronous up (versus over) sampling necessarily requires full reclocking which might account for why some DACs with this feature sound good.  In any case I agree that jitter has become a bugaboo, blamed for all shortcoming people hear or think they hear.

Quote from: Scarpia on September 21, 2012, 08:34:40 AM...
As to why you think the longer cable reduces jitter, I can't make heads nor tails of it.  The reflection comes at the attachment point, making the cable longer will not reduce reflection.  It will make the reflection come after a longer delay, which can only make jitter worse.

Apparently longer delays don't make reflections worse. It's the almost simultaneous arrivals of the prime signal and reflection that's the problem and which longer cable prevents.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2012, 02:05:48 PM
Now here's a fellow who takes his anti-jitter devices seriously:

(http://www.oftwominds.com/photos2011/OTMfoilhat.jpg)

Anyone we know?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on September 21, 2012, 04:27:17 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on September 21, 2012, 12:36:41 PMApparently longer delays don't make reflections worse. It's the almost simultaneous arrivals of the prime signal and reflection that's the problem and which longer cable prevents.

This is an example of audiophile weirdness.  If reflection in the transmission line is a problem, the standard engineering solution is to switch to a balanced cable with appropriate termination.  It costs a few bucks more, but it completely suppresses reflections.  Why screw around with the cable length to manipulate reflection when the effect can be abolished with a simple measure?

The same goes for those enormous cables they want us to put on our speakers.  Due to resistance, the voltage delivered to the load is not the same as the voltage at the output of the driver.  But this is also a common problem in scientific measurements.  The answer is a four-lead configuration.  One pair of leads delivers the current, the other pair of sensor leads monitors the voltage on the load.  That way the monitor can be designed to control the signal on the load, and not just on its output terminals.  Why will audiophiles tell us we need $1000 cables, instead of designing an amplifier with a four-lead output, which would completely solve the problem?

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on September 21, 2012, 05:40:46 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 21, 2012, 08:34:40 AM
Jitter is one of the biggest red-herrings is the audiophile universe

Listen to Scarpia. He's right. Jitter as it occurs in even the cheapest audio equipment is 100 times below the threshold of audibility. It flat out is not an issue to worry about.

When someone who is trying to sell you something starts talking about jitter, you can be sure they don't knowwhat they're talking about. They just want to sell you something.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on September 21, 2012, 06:56:24 PM
I remember days when an mp3 converter might report 'avoiding' 1,232 Jitter Errors.  Jitters is a word that prompts me to swear, as it begins with J and had two T's in it, something I find most abhorrent in what should be a harmonious lexical arrangement...  My dislike for 'Jitter' goes way beyond hatred...that word 'Jitter' drives me round the bend.  :o :P  (wtf?  **seeks David Lynch out for 'Jitters' movie contract**)
Thread Duty:
I got some 2.1 Logitech speakers for my static computer unit and for what they are, they are surprisingly good.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 22, 2012, 04:25:47 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 21, 2012, 04:27:17 PM
This is an example of audiophile weirdness.  If reflection in the transmission line is a problem, the standard engineering solution is to switch to a balanced cable with appropriate termination.  It costs a few bucks more, but it completely suppresses reflections.  Why screw around with the cable length to manipulate reflection when the effect can be abolished with a simple measure?

The same goes for those enormous cables they want us to put on our speakers.  Due to resistance, the voltage delivered to the load is not the same as the voltage at the output of the driver.  But this is also a common problem in scientific measurements.  The answer is a four-lead configuration.  One pair of leads delivers the current, the other pair of sensor leads monitors the voltage on the load.  That way the monitor can be designed to control the signal on the load, and not just on its output terminals.  Why will audiophiles tell us we need $1000 cables, instead of designing an amplifier with a four-lead output, which would completely solve the problem?

Why don't they do these things? Beats me. But the fact is, in the case of consumer digital equipment, that a coaxial S/PDIF connection is the most common type and the most likely to be available on both the source and target ends.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 22, 2012, 04:29:57 AM
Quote from: bigshot on September 21, 2012, 05:40:46 PM
Listen to Scarpia. He's right. Jitter as it occurs in even the cheapest audio equipment is 100 times below the threshold of audibility. It flat out is not an issue to worry about.

When someone who is trying to sell you something starts talking about jitter, you can be sure they don't knowwhat they're talking about. They just want to sell you something.

Likely so.  I've saved myself a lot of money by not springing for audiophile trends. You don't have to look far to find outrageous examples, e.g ...

Machina Dynamica's Brilliant Pebbles, HERE (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm)

(http://www.machinadynamica.com/BrilliantPebbles_Bottle.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on September 22, 2012, 07:33:05 AM
I prefer time-coaxial adherence conduits!
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina42.htm (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina42.htm)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on September 22, 2012, 10:15:39 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on September 22, 2012, 04:29:57 AM
Likely so.  I've saved myself a lot of money by not springing for audiophile trends. You don't have to look far to find outrageous examples, e.g ...

Machina Dynamica's Brilliant Pebbles, HERE (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm)

(http://www.machinadynamica.com/BrilliantPebbles_Bottle.jpg)

I read about those brilliant pebbles.  Wow.  I'm going to enter that industry and make an absoloute fortune...all I have to do is come up with something crazy, like "Audio-Crystalization Sand" and sell little vials of sand for about forty bucks apiece.  I can get the sand from the banks of the Clyde just doon the road...The sand contains uniques crystals with fathoming capability, and this comes in the form of invisible radiation which 'crystalizes' any sound waves over x-db within a 60m radius, ensuring clean, cackle free sound maximised for shit sound systems.
Yes!  I'm off to make my fortune... :P
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on September 22, 2012, 11:03:14 AM
Quote from: Scots John on September 22, 2012, 10:15:39 AM
I read about those brilliant pebbles.  Wow.  I'm going to enter that industry and make an absoloute fortune...all I have to do is come up with something crazy, like "Audio-Crystalization Sand" and sell little vials of sand for about forty bucks apiece.  I can get the sand from the banks of the Clyde just doon the road...The sand contains uniques crystals with fathoming capability, and this comes in the form of invisible radiation which 'crystalizes' any sound waves over x-db within a 60m radius, ensuring clean, cackle free sound maximised for shit sound systems.
Yes!  I'm off to make my fortune... :P
Don't forget the multi-dimensional vibrational fields! ;) 8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 09, 2012, 01:44:22 PM
Any new audio equipments for anyone over the holiday?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on December 09, 2012, 02:00:55 PM
My brother is giving me his custom built studio monitors from the 70s. That is going to be extra nice
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on December 10, 2012, 12:19:47 AM
Not for me; my system is good as it is. Any "upgrades" I do will be improving the room acoustics.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 11, 2012, 12:51:46 PM
I've been thinking about getting this pre-amp:

http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/364714

Right now I have my DAC connected directly to my amps.  I've been using the digital volume control on my Squeezebox Touch.

Wyred-4-Sound now offers a 15-day trial period, which is stingy but better than the 15% restocking fee they had before.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on January 01, 2013, 01:49:05 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 11, 2012, 12:51:46 PM
I've been thinking about getting this pre-amp:

http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/364714

Right now I have my DAC connected directly to my amps.  I've been using the digital volume control on my Squeezebox Touch.

Wyred-4-Sound now offers a 15-day trial period, which is stingy but better than the 15% restocking fee they had before.

Thanks for the link.

Interesting products at reaonable prices, though I have never heard of the company before.  Moreover, all products are made in the USA, which is a big plus for me, as I generally avoid buying any made-in-China audio equipments ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on January 01, 2013, 02:09:18 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 11, 2012, 12:51:46 PM
I've been thinking about getting this pre-amp:

http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/364714

Right now I have my DAC connected directly to my amps.  I've been using the digital volume control on my Squeezebox Touch.

Wyred-4-Sound now offers a 15-day trial period, which is stingy but better than the 15% restocking fee they had before.

Looks interesting. I have looked at their amps before, but being class D turned me off. Have you considered going for a tube preamp?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 03, 2013, 10:27:51 PM
Quote from: petrarch on January 01, 2013, 02:09:18 PM
Looks interesting. I have looked at their amps before, but being class D turned me off. Have you considered going for a tube preamp?

I've been using a tubed pre-amp, a BAT 3iX (the basic version with the optional phono card), for the last several years.  When I wrote that post, it was bothering me with a channel imbalance, but cleaning the tube sockets with Caig De-Oxit seems to have fixed that.  After that it was tube rush that was bothering me.   I replaced those tubes (some relatively expensive current production Gold Lion 6922s) with some cheaper Electro-Harmonix tubes, which are quieter, though there is still some audible hiss.  I may try some Amperex tubes I have tomorrow.  I'm probably sticking with it for now, but I do get tired of the fussiness of tubes.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 05, 2013, 07:25:27 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 09, 2012, 01:44:22 PM
Any new audio equipments for anyone over the holiday?

Not over the holidays, but recently.  I've been experimenting with equalization with good results.  Is this an option to expensive upgrades, in particular speakers??? Could be.

Almost all my listening is via computer files these days, so it is feasible to use a software-base digital equalization which is what I've done. I use Foobar2000, (the old standby), which allows a wide range of plug-in components.  There are several equalizers available, (including a relatively crude one that comes with the standard DPS set).  My favourite so far is AIXcoustic Creations' free, Electi-Q (Posifhopit edition). See their website HERE (http://www.aixcoustic.com/index.php/Electri-Q-posihfopit/30/0/). Electri-Q does also require the use of George Yohng's Foobar2000 VST Wrapper, HERE (http://www.yohng.com/software/foobarvst.html).

Electri-Q permits very refined, transparent, and phase shiftless equalization. I use it to correct system response as measured at 3 feet (1 meter) from each speaker. The free Electri-Q version doesn't allow different equalization for each channel, but my speakers' responses are similar enough that this isn't much of an issue.

OK, so how do do I measure the speakers' responses?  Well unfortunately you need separate hardware & software to do it.  I use Parts Express' OmniMic to do that: see HERE (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=390-790). This does a great job.

So ... as intimated, I measured L & R speakers at a distance of 3 feet; this approach emphasizes the direct sound from the speaker versus a lot more reflected sound which you get at the listening position.  The human ear is actually able to differentiate direct vs. reflected sound so, IMO, I feel it is better to equalize for the direct sound.

This is the measurement I got for the right speaker; (the left was very similar) ...

(http://clients.teksavvy.com/~wdbailey/right-noeq-sized.jpg)

Accordingly this was the correction I made with Electri-Q ...

(http://clients.teksavvy.com/~wdbailey/Electri-Q_settings-SEAKERS.jpg)

N.B.B The above correction rolls off the high frequencies starting about 4 kHz.  This is important for two reasons:

In general, with this equalization, I feel I'm getting a more naturals sound (with most recordings), truer instrument timbres, and stronger stereo imaging.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on January 05, 2013, 12:50:59 PM
I've extensively upgraded mine:

Martin Logan Theos front speakers, ML Abyss subwoofer, ML Motif center speaker, Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000 surrounds, Parasound Halo A51 5-channel amp, Sony STR 6400ES pre/pro, Oppo 95 SACD/DVD player, and Stax SR 404/SRM 717 electrostatic headphones.

The only item I want to change is the Sony 6400ES, which is an AVR, to a stand alone pre/pro. I'm seriously looking at the new Marantz 8801, but I want to read more reviews of it first.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on January 05, 2013, 05:06:43 PM
I just added a Grace internet tuner to my study after the New Year, though the first listening I did today was entirely via my Sennheiser HD-600 headphones since the unit is not connected to my tube preamp yet; it is only connected to my wireless network.  It may be a few months since I am still exploring my options for a tube amp.  I am however, surprised at BBC Radio 3 only streams its classical music broadcast at 48 kbps.  However, a radio station from the Middle East actually streams its broadcast at 128 kbps ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/315A5v-51gL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on January 06, 2013, 12:42:16 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 05, 2013, 07:25:27 AMAlmost all my listening is via computer files these days, so it is feasible to use a software-base digital equalization which is what I've done. I use Foobar2000, (the old standby), which allows a wide range of plug-in components.  There are several equalizers available, (including a relatively crude one that comes with the standard DPS set).  My favourite so far is AIXcoustic Creations' free, Electi-Q (Posifhopit edition). See their website HERE (http://www.aixcoustic.com/index.php/Electri-Q-posihfopit/30/0/). Electri-Q does also require the use of George Yohng's Foobar2000 VST Wrapper, HERE (http://www.yohng.com/software/foobarvst.html).
All very good choices. I did some production a couple of years ago and I remember that EQ was very well known in the VST scene.
What soundcard do you use? In my living room, I use a dedicated notebook (Thinkpad T23) which has a fullscreen fb2k setup and which is fully remotely controllable; soundcard is sb audigy 2 zs notebook.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 06, 2013, 11:09:28 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on January 06, 2013, 12:42:16 AM
All very good choices. I did some production a couple of years ago and I remember that EQ was very well known in the VST scene.
What soundcard do you use? In my living room, I use a dedicated notebook (Thinkpad T23) which has a fullscreen fb2k setup and which is fully remotely controllable; soundcard is sb audigy 2 zs notebook.

I'm using an M-Audio Revolution 7.1 sound card in Vista Home Basic computer. I use the card's S/PDIF output to an external DAC, a SMSL SD-1955, available from eBay sellers, (e.g. HERE (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/SMSL-SD-1955-High-end-Audio-DAC-AD1955-DIR9001-TE7022L-Optical-coaxial-USB-B-/300787673289?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item460857a8c9&_uhb=1#ht_11509wt_849)), which is astonishingly good for the price.

My stereo system configuration is diagrammed HERE (http://clients.teksavvy.com/~wdbailey/StereoDiagram_current.jpg).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on January 26, 2013, 09:18:27 AM
I recently bought this 1994 Kenwood seperates system, billed in its entirety as an HD 600.  To it I have hooked up a set of 5.1 speakers at 'regulation' angles, positions and distances.  Despite its age, this little system, cased in metal, not plastic, produces an fabulously clear quality of sound.

(http://www.procar.cz/img/kenwood/hd-600.jpg)

(Please note this is a picture from a different source, and my system is much cleaner than this and does not have clarty fingerprints everywhere on it.)  >:(

To test my ears, I played Mahlers 5th, by Neumann and the CzPO.  A long time ago I gave Neumanns Mahler a hard time, wondering what there was in it that could interest anybody.  I was advised by a learned mentor that I should listen for the amazing intricacies and sonorities achieved in Neumanns Mahler, some of which you can hardly hear in other any other conductors' Mahler.  Well, I did find these intricacies at the time, but it took some listening.  So I put it on again on this 'new' hotch potch setup of mine and good God, I could hear all manner of things which seemed clouded before.  This turn of events has led me to completely re-evaluate absolutely everything I have, because something in this setup is delivering music to my waxy lugs in a completely different way.  And I DO NOT use any equalisers or any other filter(s) to change things.
I even put on some Weber, and discovered a whole new sense of spatial awareness!  LOL.  Very strange, but the dimensions in which the music comes to me have changed a great deal, and only in the past month since I set this little lot up.  My 2008 Philips player has been relegated to the bedroom, where it languishes not even plugged in, and I am going through a very long and enjoyable period of re-evaluating everything and anything.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on January 26, 2013, 11:31:36 AM
Quote from: Scots John on January 26, 2013, 09:18:27 AM
I recently bought this 1994 Kenwood seperates system, billed in its entirety as an HD 600.  To it I have hooked up a set of 5.1 speakers at 'regulation' angles, positions and distances.  Despite its age, this little system, cased in metal, not plastic, produces an fabulously clear quality of sound.

(http://www.procar.cz/img/kenwood/hd-600.jpg)

(Please note this is a picture from a different source, and my system is much cleaner than this and does not have clarty fingerprints everywhere on it.)  >:(

To test my ears, I played Mahlers 5th, by Neumann and the CzPO.  A long time ago I gave Neumanns Mahler a hard time, wondering what there was in it that could interest anybody.  I was advised by a learned mentor that I should listen for the amazing intricacies and sonorities achieved in Neumanns Mahler, some of which you can hardly hear in other any other conductors' Mahler.  Well, I did find these intricacies at the time, but it took some listening.  So I put it on again on this 'new' hotch potch setup of mine and good God, I could hear all manner of things which seemed clouded before.  This turn of events has led me to completely re-evaluate absolutely everything I have, because something in this setup is delivering music to my waxy lugs in a completely different way.  And I DO NOT use any equalisers or any other filter(s) to change things.
I even put on some Weber, and discovered a whole new sense of spatial awareness!  LOL.  Very strange, but the dimensions in which the music comes to me have changed a great deal, and only in the past month since I set this little lot up.  My 2008 Philips player has been relegated to the bedroom, where it languishes not even plugged in, and I am going through a very long and enjoyable period of re-evaluating everything and anything.

Nice!  Sounds like your iPod will be relegated to collecting dust ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on January 26, 2013, 01:17:58 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 26, 2013, 11:31:36 AM
Nice!  Sounds like your iPod will be relegated to collecting dust ...

Yes!  And while I was at it, I hooked up a Hard Drive full of nicely sorted MP3 files to an unused 3 year old SUMO media box by USB, and fed the TV audio output into the above 1994 Kenwood.  The sheer QUALITY of sound I am getting from both these and CD's, with the CD playing 'direct' to output is just great.   I would say that although there is a long way to go, this is by far the 'best' and 'most vivid' Classical / audio experience in my own home my ears have ever witnessed.  Phew!   8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on January 26, 2013, 01:36:03 PM
Quote from: Scots John on January 26, 2013, 01:17:58 PM
Yes!  And while I was at it, I hooked up a Hard Drive full of nicely sorted MP3 files to an unused 3 year old SUMO media box by USB, and fed the TV audio output into the above 1994 Kenwood.  The sheer QUALITY of sound I am getting from both these and CD's, with the CD playing 'direct' to output is just great.   I would say that although there is a long way to go, this is by far the 'best' and 'most vivid' Classical / audio experience in my own home my ears have ever witnessed.  Phew!   8)

I have never owned an iPod and doubt I will ever.  There are other ways to enjoy your music much more than through those earbuds.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on January 26, 2013, 03:49:02 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 26, 2013, 01:36:03 PM
I have never owned an iPod and doubt I will ever.  There are other ways to enjoy your music much more than through those earbuds.

Agreed.  I have never owned one either, but only suggested I did to illustrate the drama of my wee story.  LOL   :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on January 26, 2013, 04:12:04 PM
Quote from: Scots John on January 26, 2013, 03:49:02 PM
Agreed.  I have never owned one either, but only suggested I did to illustrate the drama of my wee story.  LOL   :D

I have always been an iNothing guy.  It was nice to see the Apple shares crashed some 30% over the past few months.  It is absurd that a company sells products that do little to improve the quality of life for people and what it sells are not the must-have's in life either was actually the world's largest corporation for a while. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on January 26, 2013, 04:30:13 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 26, 2013, 04:12:04 PM
I have always been an iNothing guy.  It was nice to see the Apple shares crashed some 30% over the past few months.  It is absurd that a company sells products that do little to improve the quality of life for people and what it sells are not the must-have's in life either was actually the world's largest corporation for a while. 
Hmmm...so access to information does little to improve people's quality of life? And if not, then whose fault is that? The agency enabling access? Or the people making poor use of it?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on January 28, 2013, 06:56:19 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 26, 2013, 04:30:13 PM
Hmmm...so access to information does little to improve people's quality of life? And if not, then whose fault is that? The agency enabling access? Or the people making poor use of it?

:-[  The people making poor use of it.  :-[

I am not an Apple fan by any means, I do not like how one gets 'locked in' to their products, and everything from there on is Apple and nothing else.  Meanwhile, with my fancy retro 1994 Kenwood seperates system, coupled with its own speakers and an additional array of surround sound continues to blow me clean off my arse with the quality and depth of its sound.  Unfortunately though, by todays standards, it is probably still not delivering 'state of the art' sound, as I read it only has a 1 Bit Dual D/A Converter, whatever that is.  Only one bit, though.   :(

(http://www.procar.cz/img/kenwood/hd-600.jpg)
(Please note this is a picture from a different source, and my system is much cleaner than this and does not have clarty fingerprints everywhere on it.)  >:(

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on January 29, 2013, 12:15:24 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 26, 2013, 04:30:13 PM
Hmmm...so access to information does little to improve people's quality of life? And if not, then whose fault is that? The agency enabling access? Or the people making poor use of it?

As someone else said:

"I have in my pocket a device that can access all information known to man - and I use it to look at pictures of cats."
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on February 01, 2013, 06:42:26 PM
I'm in the market for a final, I hope, pair of speakers.  Salk Sound has already won my business.  They will build whatever I want.  I am currently listening to these:

(http://www.salksound.com/home_htm_files/3030.jpg)

These were literally my first pair of SuperCharged SongTowers.  I found some issues with the topcoat finish.  Salk's response?  We'll send you a new pair, and after you receive them you can send the old ones back, shipping on us.  Considering I had custom construction (1" MDF construction, Bubinga finish, and Sonicap capacitors, and my original pair resold without ever being reposted), this was a most generous offer.  My current pair has no flaws.  I must say, I want a little more.  More bass.  More volume.  So, I must choose between these:

(http://www.salksound.com/gallery/ht2-tl-raal/ht2-tl-rosewood-red.jpg)

(http://www.salksound.com/gallery/ss8/ss8-quiltedmaple-rosered.jpg)

I'm pretty much sold on the double-dye finish of the lower speaker, but am having problems deciding between the two-way HT2-TL (above) and SoundScape 8 (below).  I listen in a small, but dedicated room, and two 8" woofers plus two 12" passives of the bottom speaker could be too much, but Salk voices as close to flat 20 Hz-20 KHz (literally) as I have heard, possibly mitigating that problem.  That leaves the ceramic midrange of the SoundScape 8.  Ceramic drivers scare me.  Here's the thing: they would design a custom pair with any drivers I want, and what I want is the midrange from my current speaker. (The crossover designer knows his stuff inside and out, and is a no-BS guy - Dennis Murphy is his name, and Philharmonic Audio is his company, and he will return emails.  Did I mention he plays in an orchestra?)  Not cheap speakers, but a bargain no matter what.  The RAAL ribbon tweeter is the best thing since sliced bread.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on February 01, 2013, 06:54:09 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 29, 2013, 12:15:24 PM
As someone else said:

"I have in my pocket a device that can access all information known to man - and I use it to look at pictures of cats."

:P
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on February 01, 2013, 07:26:52 PM
My audio stereo setup is pretty simple. Here are photos found on the Internet of my stereo equipment:

(http://www.plex.gr/upload/101136_ONKYO%20DX-7210.jpg)

Onkyo DX7210 CD player

(http://audio-heritage.jp/SONY-ESPRIT/player/cdp-xe500.jpg)

Sony XE500 CD Player

(http://www.minidisc.org/images/asahi_images/mds-je520.jpg)

Sony JE520 MD Player (Am I the only on this forum that uses MDs?)

(http://zvito.com/upload/normal/S/Sony_FM_Pro_Logic_AV_Stereo_Receiver_wRemote_STR-D711_-_125_-_Minoa_-_Electronics_-_13206_1.jpeg)

Sony D711 amplifier

(http://www.classicaudio.com/forsale/pio/RG9.jpg)

Pioneer Dynamic Range Processor RG-9

I don't know the model number of my Polk Audio speakers, but they're probably made in the late 80s, early 90s.




Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on February 01, 2013, 08:02:05 PM
I have one of those pioneer expanders. It actually works!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on February 01, 2013, 08:07:11 PM
Quote from: bigshot on February 01, 2013, 08:02:05 PM
I have one of those pioneer expanders. It actually works!

Yeah, they're very nice --- beefs up the sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on February 02, 2013, 12:44:13 AM
Now I get why you love Delius. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 02, 2013, 09:14:16 AM
Quote from: Todd on February 01, 2013, 06:42:26 PM
I'm in the market for a final, I hope, pair of speakers.  Salk Sound has already won my business.  They will build whatever I want.  I am currently listening to these:

(http://www.salksound.com/home_htm_files/3030.jpg)

These were literally my first pair of SuperCharged SongTowers.  I found some issues with the topcoat finish.  Salk's response?  We'll send you a new pair, and after you receive them you can send the old ones back, shipping on us.  Considering I had custom construction (1" MDF construction, Bubinga finish, and Sonicap capacitors, and my original pair resold without ever being reposted), this was a most generous offer.  My current pair has no flaws.  I must say, I want a little more.  More bass.  More volume.  So, I must choose between these:

(http://www.salksound.com/gallery/ht2-tl-raal/ht2-tl-rosewood-red.jpg)

(http://www.salksound.com/gallery/ss8/ss8-quiltedmaple-rosered.jpg)

I'm pretty much sold on the double-dye finish of the lower speaker, but am having problems deciding between the two-way HT2-TL (above) and SoundScape 8 (below).  I listen in a small, but dedicated room, and two 8" woofers plus two 12" passives of the bottom speaker could be too much, but Salk voices as close to flat 20 Hz-20 KHz (literally) as I have heard, possibly mitigating that problem.  That leaves the ceramic midrange of the SoundScape 8.  Ceramic drivers scare me.  Here's the thing: they would design a custom pair with any drivers I want, and what I want is the midrange from my current speaker. (The crossover designer knows his stuff inside and out, and is a no-BS guy - Dennis Murphy is his name, and Philharmonic Audio is his company, and he will return emails.  Did I mention he plays in an orchestra?)  Not cheap speakers, but a bargain no matter what.  The RAAL ribbon tweeter is the best thing since sliced bread.

I like the pair with the side-firing subwoofer and hopefully you do not have a cat ...    ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on February 02, 2013, 09:22:20 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 02, 2013, 09:14:16 AMI like the pair with the side-firing subwoofer



Those are actually 12" passive radiators.  The speaker has a rated F3 of 25 Hz, which is definitely plenty low, and the 8" woofer used is designed for subwoofer use.  The finish is amazing; I've never seen "plain" old maple look so good.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 03, 2013, 01:14:50 PM
Quote from: Todd on February 02, 2013, 09:22:20 AM
Those are actually 12" passive radiators.  The speaker has a rated F3 of 25 Hz, which is definitely plenty low, and the 8" woofer used is designed for subwoofer use.  The finish is amazing; I've never seen "plain" old maple look so good.

Very impressive looking, and the drivers look equally impressive.  The base price is about what I paid several years ago for my Vandersteen Quatros, which are decidedly functional looking, having the old Vandersteen "put a black sock over it" look.  Vandersteen now has more models that pay attention to aesthetics.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on February 03, 2013, 01:47:40 PM
Quote from: Daverz on February 03, 2013, 01:14:50 PM
Very impressive looking, and the drivers look equally impressive.  The base price is about what I paid several years ago for my Vandersteen Quatros, which are decidedly functional looking, having the old Vandersteen "put a black sock over it" look.  Vandersteen now has more models that pay attention to aesthetics.

Can anyone tell me , please, are most amps and other hi-fi separates interchangeable?  There's a clutch of 'separates' which I see individually in stores like Cash Converters (don't know what the American equivalent is).  So if I want to experiment (which I most certainly do) with different audio equipments now and then, is it possible for example to buy a 'Sony' amp or a Denon CD separate (or whatever) and attach  such a novelty to my Kenwood system, or are these kinds of things propriety? 
Since a recent change in my audio hardware there have been significant changes in the quality of sound, despite the change being 14 years older than the one I had, and I would like to mess around with more separates, etc.  I accept this is a most rudimentary question for someone who is into our music, and one might expect me to know about things like this.  But I don't.  But if it IS the case, it is more than likely I will start messing around with a LOT of such things.

PS:  Passive Radiators.  I had no idea heating systems were also installed in top level speaker arrays.   ??? :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 03, 2013, 02:18:04 PM
Quote from: Scots John on February 03, 2013, 01:47:40 PM
Can anyone tell me , please, are most amps and other hi-fi separates interchangeable?  There's a clutch of 'separates' which I see individually in stores like Cash Converters (don't know what the American equivalent is).  So if I want to experiment (which I most certainly do) with different audio equipments now and then, is it possible for example to buy a 'Sony' amp or a Denon CD separate (or whatever) and attach  such a novelty to my Kenwood system, or are these kinds of things propriety? 
Since a recent change in my audio hardware there have been significant changes in the quality of sound, despite the change being 14 years older than the one I had, and I would like to mess around with more separates, etc.  I accept this is a most rudimentary question for someone who is into our music, and one might expect me to know about things like this.  But I don't.  But if it IS the case, it is more than likely I will start messing around with a LOT of such things.

PS:  Passive Radiators.  I had no idea heating systems were also installed in top level speaker arrays.   ??? :o

Proprietary connections between electronics are very rare.   I'm sure all that stuff has standard RCA connections.  Even in the unlikely case that you encounter XLR connections (these are the large 3-pin connections), you can use XLR-to-RCA adapters.   

Speaker connectors vary more.  Some very old equipment only allows for bare wire or small spades, while some will allow banana plugs or larger spades.

The only other thing to worry about is whether a particular combination  of components will make the volume control difficult to use.  Volume pots tend to get non-linear at the lower end of their range, so you want the typical volume setting to be past 10 o'clock or so.

Also, an amp without enough power for your speakers is more likely to clip and cause damage to tweeters.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on February 03, 2013, 02:33:42 PM
Quote from: Daverz on February 03, 2013, 02:18:04 PM
Proprietary connections between electronics are very rare.   I'm sure all that stuff has standard RCA connections.  Even in the unlikely case that you encounter XLR connections (these are the large 3-pin connections), you can use XLR-to-RCA adapters.   

Speaker connectors vary more.  Some very old equipment only allows for bare wire or small spades, while some will allow banana plugs or larger spades.

The only other thing to worry about is whether a particular combination  of components will make the volume control difficult to use.  Volume pots tend to get non-linear at the lower end of their range, so you want the typical volume setting to be past 10 o'clock or so.

Also, an amp without enough power for your speakers is more likely to clip and cause damage to tweeters.

Thank you Daverz.  I appreciate that.
Thats enough to let me know I can go on a sound odyssey, and I will report findings here as they occur.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 10, 2013, 05:02:06 AM
The top tier Polk Audio bookshelves (lsti series) are massively discounted so I might buy them to replace my damaged towers.  I realized that my apartment living room is not that big, so I might get more bang for the buck with bookshelves than I would with towers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on February 10, 2013, 01:02:17 PM
Here is another most rudimentary question re - audio setup of which I am blissfully ignorant...
I am thinking of doing stuff with my speakers, try other ones, etc.  I have  a standard 5.1 setup in conjunction with speakers native to my audio hardware.   The native speakers are great, brilliant quality of sound.  They are 80w speakers.  The 5.1 surround isn't as beefy because it's five little 'box' speakers are only 10w each.  My question is this:

If I ditch the 5 x 5.1 10w speakers in favour of beefier speakers more in line with my 2 x  80w Kenwoods, does this mean the 'Woofer' will not work because it is propriety to its own native speakers, or do 'Woofers' act independently of speakers?   :-\
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on February 10, 2013, 01:10:13 PM
Quote from: Daverz on February 03, 2013, 02:18:04 PM
Also, an amp without enough power for your speakers is more likely to clip and cause damage to tweeters.

OTOH, an amp with more power than the speakers are rated for will blow them if playing at excess volume. Check the power rating on the speakers (usually given as a range) and make sure the amp's matches.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on February 10, 2013, 01:18:02 PM
Quote from: Scots John on February 10, 2013, 01:02:17 PM
If I ditch the 5 x 5.1 10w speakers in favour of beefier speakers more in line with my 2 x  80w Kenwoods, does this mean the 'Woofer' will not work because it is propriety to its own native speakers, or do 'Woofers' act independently of speakers?   :-\

Woofers can act independently if they have dedicated terminals. A standalone box like a subwoofer will have its own terminals. Bigger speakers typically have multiple sets of terminals allowing for each of their units to be driven independently (e.g. my planar speakers are 2-way and have separate pairs of terminals for the bass panel and the ribbon tweeter).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on February 10, 2013, 01:26:07 PM
Quote from: petrarch on February 10, 2013, 01:18:02 PM
Woofers can act independently if they have dedicated terminals. A standalone box like a subwoofer will have its own terminals. Bigger speakers typically have multiple sets of terminals allowing for each of their units to be driven independently (e.g. my planar speakers are 2-way and have separate pairs of terminals for the bass panel and the ribbon tweeter).

Many thanks Petrarch.  The 'box' has five outputs for the speakers, five inputs for sound in and two inputs for standard stereo input, and an off on switch.   :)  Are these audio 'inputs' the 'terminals'?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on February 10, 2013, 01:50:58 PM
Quote from: Scots John on February 10, 2013, 01:26:07 PM
Many thanks Petrarch.  The 'box' has five outputs for the speakers, five inputs for sound in and two inputs for standard stereo input, and an off on switch.   :)  Are these audio 'inputs' the 'terminals'?

No; the terminals would be in the speakers themselves--it is where you connect the cables.

Here are a couple of examples -

My old ML Vantages:

(http://dmethods.com/hifi/IMG_0013.jpg)

My current AA Amphitryons:

(http://dmethods.com/hifi/IMG_1589.JPG)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on February 10, 2013, 02:47:28 PM
There are two types of subwoofers, powered and unpowered. If a regular speaker connection goes to the sub, it's an unpowered sub. If a rca line out goes to the sub, there's an amp in the sub itself. Better subs are self powered. If you're planning on upgrading your existing 5:1 system, I'd suggest prioritizing by replacing the mains first, then the sub and center channel, and the rears last.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on February 10, 2013, 02:56:55 PM
Thanks you all for your help in this matter.   ;D
I'm going to source some more new hardware as a result, and will post my results here as things tick along.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: NJ Joe on February 10, 2013, 05:04:29 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91WRK4WU1RL._SL1500_.jpg)

Picked this up today to put on the floor behind my desk at work.  Logitech S715i.  Portable, remote included, and excellent sound for the money. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on February 11, 2013, 05:31:43 AM
Recently I set up dedicated computer to use for scanning my 50 years worth of photo slides and negatives -- this'll keep me out of trouble in my retirement.  However there was no way to listen to music at this workstation, so I looked for a some economical computer speakers.

The limit of what you spend on computer speakers is rather high these days. I would ideally have like a pair of Audioengine 5+, (HERE (http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Audioengine-A5plus#.URj-bR08B8E)); nice, but just too expensive for me for this application. So I went for a 2.1 setup, the Eagle Arion ET-AR504LR, (HERE (http://www.eagletechusa.com/ET-AR504LR-BK.html)), which I got for $50.

(http://www.eagletechusa.com/images/products/Stereo%20Systems/Multimedia/ET-AR504LR-BK/2b.jpg)

These are fairly decent speakers which, with its subwoofer, is capable of the full normal music frequency range, i.e. down to 40 Hz.  However it was clear to me that their frequency response isn't perfectly smooth.  Fortunately I am able to use the Electri-Q equalizer, (HERE (http://www.aixcoustic.com/index.php/Electri-Q-posihfopit/30/0/)), with in my Foobar2000 music player program, (HERE (http://www.foobar2000.org/)). The result is very nice and very listenable over extended periods of time.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on February 11, 2013, 02:15:15 PM
Quote from: The new erato on February 02, 2013, 12:44:13 AM
Now I get why you love Delius. ;D

Didn't even see this! Ha! :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2013, 11:37:20 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on February 11, 2013, 05:31:43 AM
Recently I set up dedicated computer to use for scanning my 50 years worth of photo slides and negatives -- this'll keep me out of trouble in my retirement.  However there was no way to listen to music at this workstation, so I looked for a some economical computer speakers.

The limit of what you spend on computer speakers is rather high these days. I would ideally have like a pair of Audioengine 5+, (HERE (http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Audioengine-A5plus#.URj-bR08B8E)); nice, but just too expensive for me for this application. So I went for a 2.1 setup, the Eagle Arion ET-AR504LR, (HERE (http://www.eagletechusa.com/ET-AR504LR-BK.html)), which I got for $50.

(http://www.eagletechusa.com/images/products/Stereo%20Systems/Multimedia/ET-AR504LR-BK/2b.jpg)

These are fairly decent speakers which, with its subwoofer, is capable of the full normal music frequency range, i.e. down to 40 Hz.  However it was clear to me that their frequency response isn't perfectly smooth.  Fortunately I am able to use the Electri-Q equalizer, (HERE (http://www.aixcoustic.com/index.php/Electri-Q-posihfopit/30/0/)), with in my Foobar2000 music player program, (HERE (http://www.foobar2000.org/)). The result is very nice and very listenable over extended periods of time.

A good boombox from the good old analog days cost a bit more than this unit ...     ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 18, 2013, 09:15:47 AM
I started to feel like upgrading my 15 years old Denon DCD-735 CD-player.

It has served me well but lately it started to have an issue with the disc tray so
that the tray closes immediately after opening it.

I have always wanted to try NAD's CD-players so I ordered NAD C 565BEE.  :)

(http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/7/nadc565bee.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/nadc565bee.jpg/)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 18, 2013, 09:31:20 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 18, 2013, 09:15:47 AM
I started to feel like upgrading my 15 years old Denon DCD-735 CD-player.

It has served me well but lately it started to have an issue with the disc tray so
that the tray closes immediately after opening it.

I have always wanted to try NAD's CD-players so I ordered NAD C 565BEE.  :)

(http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/7/nadc565bee.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/nadc565bee.jpg/)

I wish you the best luck.  I am a member of an audio forum and quite a few forum members have been having problems with NAD CD/universal players.  I used to be a fan of NAD until a few years ago before it started to make all its products in China ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 22, 2013, 09:46:56 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 18, 2013, 09:31:20 AM
I wish you the best luck.
Thanks! I have had the player for 3 days now. The sound quality is jaw-dropping.  ??? Amazing three-dimensional detailed sound that isn't "digital" or cold but natural and warm.

I seem to prefer the normal 44.1 kHz/16 bit mode over the upsampled 96 kHz/24 bit and 192 kHz/24 bit which sound more "digital" and colder.
The reconstruction filters are harder to tell apart but filters 1, 2 and 5 seems to work better in my system than filters 3 and 4.
The optical input is nice. I connected my TV set to it and got great sound quality for TV programs.

Great CD-player and well worth the 599 euros I paid for it.  :)

Quote from: Coopmv on February 18, 2013, 09:31:20 AMI am a member of an audio forum and quite a few forum members have been having problems with NAD CD/universal players.  I used to be a fan of NAD until a few years ago before it started to make all its products in China ...

I read something about the player not reacting due to a bad patch of connectors. I believe those connectors are easy to replace. NAD products were assembled in Taiwan before China.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on February 22, 2013, 06:27:17 PM
My next purchase will most likely be this new Marantz AV 8801 pre-amp/processor:

(http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/marantz_av8801.jpg)

(http://bilder.hifi-forum.de/medium/572169/marantz-av-8801_225367.jpg)

It will replace my current Sony AVR, which I'm using as a pre/pro.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on February 22, 2013, 06:50:35 PM
Most solid state amps sound the same... perfect. Flat response, no distortion. The main difference between amps is power and features.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 22, 2013, 07:09:44 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 22, 2013, 09:46:56 AM
Thanks! I have had the player for 3 days now. The sound quality is jaw-dropping.  ??? Amazing three-dimensional detailed sound that isn't "digital" or cold but natural and warm.

I seem to prefer the normal 44.1 kHz/16 bit mode over the upsampled 96 kHz/24 bit and 192 kHz/24 bit which sound more "digital" and colder.
The reconstruction filters are harder to tell apart but filters 1, 2 and 5 seems to work better in my system than filters 3 and 4.
The optical input is nice. I connected my TV set to it and got great sound quality for TV programs.

Great CD-player and well worth the 599 euros I paid for it.  :)

I read something about the player not reacting due to a bad patch of connectors. I believe those connectors are easy to replace. NAD products were assembled in Taiwan before China.

All my NAD equipments were made in Japan, the UK and Denmark.  I gave my only Chinese-made CD player to my sister, not sure if it is still working ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 22, 2013, 07:11:07 PM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on February 22, 2013, 06:27:17 PM
My next purchase will most likely be this new Marantz AV 8801 pre-amp/processor:

(http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/marantz_av8801.jpg)

(http://bilder.hifi-forum.de/medium/572169/marantz-av-8801_225367.jpg)

It will replace my current Sony AVR, which I'm using as a pre/pro.

I cannot deal with this number of RCA jacks ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 22, 2013, 07:48:40 PM
Quote from: bigshot on February 22, 2013, 06:50:35 PM
Most solid state amps sound the same... perfect. Flat response, no distortion. The main difference between amps is power and features.

I can understand where this is coming from, but SS amps do not sound the same to me.  I've never been able to improve the sound of an amp I don't like by simply telling myself that they all sound the same.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on February 22, 2013, 09:47:04 PM
Quote from: Daverz on February 22, 2013, 07:48:40 PM
I can understand where this is coming from, but SS amps do not sound the same to me.  I've never been able to improve the sound of an amp I don't like by simply telling myself that they all sound the same.
I agree. If you do believe that SS amp souds the same except for power you are making a big mistake that could be easily rectified by listening to two different amps with similar power output in your rig. I'm not a HiFi nut and couldn't care less about cables and oher assorted esoterica, but I have had my share of kit over the years (currently having 3 amplifiers in daily use, a Rotel integrated and SS power amps from Conrad-Johnson and Nakamichi) and believe me, the differences are plainly obvious. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 23, 2013, 04:55:00 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 22, 2013, 07:09:44 PM
All my NAD equipments were made in Japan, the UK and Denmark.  I gave my only Chinese-made CD player to my sister, not sure if it is still working ...

My old NAD 302 amplifier (my first amplifier bought back in 1993) is "designed and engineered" in England and "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in Taiwan. My AV-amplifier (NAD T762) is "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in the people's republic of China. The new CD player is "designed and engineered" in Canada and "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in China.

Quote from: Coopmv on February 22, 2013, 07:09:44 PMI gave my only Chinese-made CD player to my sister, not sure if it is still working ...

I wish I was so rich I could just donate a NAD CD player to my sister...  :D

Why don't you ask if the China-made player is still working?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 23, 2013, 05:09:26 AM
Speaking of NAD, their new M51 DAC is very tempting:

http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M51-Direct-Digital-DAC
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 23, 2013, 05:18:16 AM
Quote from: bigshot on February 22, 2013, 06:50:35 PM
Most solid state amps sound the same... perfect. Flat response, no distortion. The main difference between amps is power and features.

My NAD 302 and NAD T762 do not sound the same. T762 has significantly more control at lower frequencies and the differencies do not end there.

One source of differencies between amplifiers is the output impedance that determines damping factor together with the load (speakers + wires). An amplifer that has more control at bass frequencies may simply have lower output impedance at bass frequencies meaning higher damping factor and better control. Since NAD T762 is 3-4 times more powerful amplifier (in stereo mode) than NAD 302, it has probably been engineered to have lower output impedance at lower frequencies.

Whatever the reasons are, amplifiers don't seem to sound exactly the same.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 23, 2013, 07:51:32 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 23, 2013, 04:55:00 AM
My old NAD 302 amplifier (my first amplifier bought back in 1993) is "designed and engineered" in England and "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in Taiwan. My AV-amplifier (NAD T762) is "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in the people's republic of China. The new CD player is "designed and engineered" in Canada and "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in China.

I wish I was so rich I could just donate a NAD CD player to my sister...  :D

Why don't you ask if the China-made player is still working?

I usually have 6 or 7 CD players at my house.  I do have an NAD S500i SilverLine CDP, made in Denmark.  SilverLine was the NAD premier line back in mid 2000's.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 23, 2013, 07:53:22 AM
Quote from: The new erato on February 22, 2013, 09:47:04 PM
I agree. If you do believe that SS amp souds the same except for power you are making a big mistake that could be easily rectified by listening to two different amps with similar power output in your rig. I'm not a HiFi nut and couldn't care less about cables and oher assorted esoterica, but I have had my share of kit over the years (currently having 3 amplifiers in daily use, a Rotel integrated and SS power amps from Conrad-Johnson and Nakamichi) and believe me, the differences are plainly obvious.

Very expensive audio cables are just snake oil IMO ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 23, 2013, 07:55:37 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 23, 2013, 05:18:16 AM
My NAD 302 and NAD T762 do not sound the same. T762 has significantly more control at lower frequencies and the differencies do not end there.

One source of differencies between amplifiers is the output impedance that determines damping factor together with the load (speakers + wires). An amplifer that has more control at bass frequencies may simply have lower output impedance at bass frequencies meaning higher damping factor and better control. Since NAD T762 is 3-4 times more powerful amplifier (in stereo mode) than NAD 302, it has probably been engineered to have lower output impedance at lower frequencies.

Whatever the reasons are, amplifiers don't seem to sound exactly the same.

Agree.  My Tandberg 3003 and the two Conrad Johnson amps have a touch of tube sound to them compared with other amps and I have owned many amps over the years but am seriously considering either a SS class-A amp or a tube amp for my study ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 23, 2013, 08:56:00 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 23, 2013, 07:51:32 AM
I usually have 6 or 7 CD players at my house.

Oh dear... ...I take it you have a large house? One CD player for each room?

The NAD C 565BEE is my third CD player. The first one was a crappy JVC (bought 1990). The second was Denon DCD-735 (bought 1998).

Quote from: Coopmv on February 23, 2013, 07:51:32 AMI do have an NAD S500i SilverLine CDP, made in Denmark.  SilverLine was the NAD premier line back in mid 2000's.

I remember those. Dreamed about owning that stuff...  :P Well, I suppose C 565BEE doesn't sound much worse that S500i, even if it is manufactured in Taiwan instead of Denmark.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 23, 2013, 09:24:24 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 23, 2013, 08:56:00 AM
Oh dear... ...I take it you have a large house? One CD player for each room?

The NAD C 565BEE is my third CD player. The first one was a crappy JVC (bought 1990). The second was Denon DCD-735 (bought 1998).

I remember those. Dreamed about owning that stuff...  :P Well, I suppose C 565BEE doesn't sound much worse that S500i, even if it is manufactured in Taiwan instead of Denmark.

Here are my current CDP's

Rega Planet 2000
Anthem CD1 (tube-based)
NAD S500i
Sony C75ES circa 1992
Philips 820 CD recorder/player
Yamaha DVD S1800 universal player

I do not have an Esoteric CDP, as I feel I do not get $6000 worth of listening enjoyment ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on February 23, 2013, 09:36:14 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 23, 2013, 09:24:24 AM
I do not have an Esoteric CDP, as I feel I do not get $6000 worth of listening enjoyment ...

It depends on the rest of the system and your room...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on February 23, 2013, 09:42:43 AM
Mine:

A Pioneer PD-S05 CD (relegated to my cabin outside town)
Wadia 302 CD for my music room
Sony XA5400ES CD/SACD for my music room
Sony NS 9000 ES CD/DVD/SACD for the living room
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 23, 2013, 09:46:12 AM
I would buy an SACD or universal player from Rega in a heart beat.  Unfortunately, the Rega management somehow does not believe in that format in much the same way it stuck with its primary business of turntables and did not produce their first CDP until the mid 90's.  Rega still builds all its equipments in its UK plants and I like that ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 23, 2013, 10:34:01 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 23, 2013, 09:24:24 AM
Here are my current CDP's

Rega Planet 2000
Anthem CD1 (tube-based)
NAD S500i
Sony C75ES circa 1992
Philips 820 CD recorder/player
Yamaha DVD S1800 universal player

I do not have an Esoteric CDP, as I feel I do not get $6000 worth of listening enjoyment ...

Since you list a DVD player, I can mention I have:

Denon DVD-1000 DVD-player (my first DVD player bought 2001)
Pioneer DV-575A DVD-player (region free, SACD support)
Cambridge Audio azur 650BD Blu-ray player (region free, SACD support/ HDCD decoding)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 23, 2013, 10:45:55 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 23, 2013, 10:34:01 AM
Since you list a DVD player, I can mention I have:

Denon DVD-1000 DVD-player (my first DVD player bought 2001)
Pioneer DV-575A DVD-player (region free, SACD support)
Cambridge Audio azur 650BD Blu-ray player (region free, SACD support/ HDCD decoding)

It is actually a universal player even though its model number is prefixed by DVD.  I have been playing my DVD's on my computer since the last full-sized DVD/VHS combo player broke a few years ago.  My universal player is only attached to my preamp and is not attached to a TV monitor via its HDMI connection.  I only use it to listen to my SACD collection ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 26, 2013, 05:40:50 AM
I did pull the trigger on the Polk Audio Lsi7's last week.  They are much better than my glaringly bright monitor towers from the same brand.  My new bookshelves fill the space in my room better (impressive soundstage) and they sound as detailed as my headphones.  Actually they sound better than any of my headphones.  I'm very pleased. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Karl Henning on February 26, 2013, 05:49:03 AM
Hoy, a Davey sighting! : )
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on February 27, 2013, 02:59:58 AM
I was reading Harrys post on how he is slimming down his gargantuan CD collection and moving into 'Streaming' over time.  I was inspired to post this, my setup for digital files.  Normal CD's are played through the cd unit, but almost everything other than my fine and always growing CD collection is still digitized, on a hard drive as illustrated.

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-kwp4saL5WMQ/US3udPurxkI/AAAAAAAAAPc/Gbqf3H4MJo4/s512/Publication1.png)

These pictures are accurate of my setup, but of course not to scale.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 27, 2013, 03:06:03 AM
I've tried streaming on the Apple TV. But for some reason the music sounds really bright compared to playing the cd. I also don't like the idea of streaming. I would rather have something that doesn't require a network, something that you could just plug an external hd into.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on March 02, 2013, 10:25:56 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 23, 2013, 04:55:00 AM
My old NAD 302 amplifier (my first amplifier bought back in 1993) is "designed and engineered" in England and "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in Taiwan. My AV-amplifier (NAD T762) is "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in the people's republic of China. The new CD player is "designed and engineered" in Canada and "custom manufactured to NAD specifications" in China.

I wish I was so rich I could just donate a NAD CD player to my sister...  :D

Why don't you ask if the China-made player is still working?

I have not asked her, but that was at least a half dozen years ago.  It was not about being rich, it was more like I had to make room for a new CDP since I have always had multiple CDP's at the same time ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 02, 2013, 08:37:50 PM
(http://www.dynavector.com/products/images/20x_400w.jpg)

I thought my beloved AT33PTG cartridge was starting to wear out, so I spent the day rooting around in my closet and wrestling with cartridge setup.   I've had the Dynavector above for years, but have only put a dozen or so hours on it.  I'm really impressed with how quiet the Dynavector is in the groove, but it doesn't sound as open as the AT33 did.  I probably have to futz some more with the setup.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on March 02, 2013, 11:56:02 PM
Quote from: Daverz on March 02, 2013, 08:37:50 PM
(http://www.dynavector.com/products/images/20x_400w.jpg)

I thought my beloved AT33PTG cartridge was starting to wear out, so I spent the day rooting around in my closet and wrestling with cartridge setup.   I've had the Dynavector above for years, but have only put a dozen or so hours on it.  I'm really impressed with how quiet the Dynavector is in the groove, but it doesn't sound as open as the AT33 did.  I probably have to futz some more with the setup.
It also probably need more than a dozen hours of playing to open up.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 03, 2013, 12:15:12 AM
Quote from: The new erato on March 02, 2013, 11:56:02 PM
It also probably need more than a dozen hours of playing to open up.

I hope so.  I have it loaded at 50 Ohms right now, which may be a bit too low (though Dynavector specifies 30 Ohms and up).

...finally gave up on the Dynavector.  It might be that I had a bum one to begin with, or maybe sitting in the closet for several years was not good for it, but I couldn't get the bass dialed in right.  It always sounded slow, loagy, and dull.  And I may have just needed to redo the setup of the AT33, because now it sounds better than ever.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on March 06, 2013, 10:31:27 AM
I've been eyeballing this gorgeous CD player:

(http://www.redferret.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/brennanjb7a.jpg)

All you need to know about it is here: http://www.brennan.co.uk
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on March 08, 2013, 05:34:50 AM
If you're looking for an inexpensive DAC for your computer system, I can recommend the Schiit Audio MODI, US$99; (yeah, cute name; no affiliation). See HERE (http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=14).

(http://schiit.com/cart/images/modi.jpg)
(http://schiit.com/cart/images/modi_04.jpg)

It has remarkably good sound for that buck: very "musical" as some audiophiles express it.  That is, a smooth yet still detailed and spacious sound. The obvious major limitation is USB input only.

I have owned a number of cheap DACs, most from eBay sources. A notable one was the SMSL SD-1955, (e.g. HERE (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/SMSL-SD-1955-High-end-Audio-DAC-AD1955-DIR9001-TE7022L-Optical-coaxial-USB-B-/300787673289?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item460857a8c9&_uhb=1)); a crisp, detailed sound but high frequencies are a bit too aggressive.

...

But, N.B., I was so impressed by the Schiit sound  ;) that I decided to step up the their Bifrost model, US$349 -- it hasn't arrived yet, but update when I've listened for a while. This model has S/PDIF inputs with optional USB, (which I ordered).

(http://schiit.com/cart/images/bifrost_05.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on March 08, 2013, 05:51:20 AM
I prefer my audio equipment to be strictly Wahabi.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on March 08, 2013, 06:45:24 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 08, 2013, 05:51:20 AM
I prefer my audio equipment to be strictly Wahabi.

???

(http://cs5256.userapi.com/u33789925/-14/x_8518f858.jpg)   ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on March 08, 2013, 03:05:52 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on March 08, 2013, 05:34:50 AM
If you're looking for an inexpensive DAC for your computer system, I can recommend the Schiit Audio MODI, US$99; (yeah, cute name; no affiliation). See HERE (http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=14).

(http://schiit.com/cart/images/modi.jpg)
(http://schiit.com/cart/images/modi_04.jpg)

It has remarkably good sound for that buck: very "musical" as some audiophiles express it.  That is, a smooth yet still detailed and spacious sound. The obvious major limitation is USB input only.

I have owned a number of cheap DACs, most from eBay sources. A notable one was the SMSL SD-1955, (e.g. HERE (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/SMSL-SD-1955-High-end-Audio-DAC-AD1955-DIR9001-TE7022L-Optical-coaxial-USB-B-/300787673289?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item460857a8c9&_uhb=1)); a crisp, detailed sound but high frequencies are a bit too aggressive.

...

But, N.B., I was so impressed by the Schiit sound  ;) that I decided to step up the their Bifrost model, US$349 -- it hasn't arrived yet, but update when I've listened for a while. This model has S/PDIF inputs with optional USB, (which I ordered).

(http://schiit.com/cart/images/bifrost_05.jpg)

I live love it - made in USA ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 09, 2013, 05:55:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/l1dnqKGuezo
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on March 21, 2013, 05:04:38 PM
(http://www.hometheater.com/images/213svs.promo_.jpg)


I've never owned a subwoofer before, but I figured it was time to get one.  I read up on quite a few, and ended up settling on the SVS SB13 Ultra.  Right size, nice price for the features, and decent enough looking for a big black cube.  This will be set up in my "home theater" (ie, soon to be 2.1 system in the family room), but I have a sneaking suspicion an organ recording or five may end up being run through this bad boy.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on March 22, 2013, 12:04:59 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on March 08, 2013, 05:34:50 AM
...
But, N.B., I was so impressed by the Schiit sound  ;) that I decided to step up the their Bifrost model, US$349 -- it hasn't arrived yet, but update when I've listened for a while. This model has S/PDIF inputs with optional USB, (which I ordered).

(http://schiit.com/cart/images/bifrost_05.jpg)

My Schiit Bifrost DAC arrive and has been in service now for a week. It's great: best improvement I've made in my system is a long time.

The thing has far exceeded my expectations, (for that sort of money). Resolution & transparency are outstanding -- instruments & voice are palpable, like real performers in a real space. Even more unexpected is the microdynamics, what we audiophiles often call "PRaT", i.e. pace, rhythm, and timing being an analogy to the performance characteristics: percussion instruments, including piano, are a revelation.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

I find the optional USB interface, (which I got), to be superior to the S/PDIF, but that might only be particular to my computer, etc..
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on March 23, 2013, 10:35:33 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on March 22, 2013, 12:04:59 PM
My Schiit Bifrost DAC arrive and had been in service now for a week. It's great: best improvement I've made in my system is a long time.

The thing has far exceeded my expectations, (for the kind of money that it is). Resolution & transparency are outstanding -- instruments & voice are palpable, like real performers in a real space. Even more unexpected is the microdynamics, what we audiophiles often call "PRaT", i.e. pace, rhythm, and timing being an analogy to the performance characteristics: percussion instruments, including piano, are a revelation.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

I find the optional USB interface which I got to be superior to the S/PDIF, but that might only be particular to my computer, etc..

If I read the label on the back panel correctly, the unit was also made in the US ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on March 23, 2013, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 23, 2013, 10:35:33 AMIf I read the label on the back panel correctly, the unit was also made in the US ...



Yep, Schiit is American made, and affordable.  (Of course, some/many/most/all [?] of the internal components are not American made.)  I've had the Asgard headphone amp for a couple years, and it is very fine, indeed, though I prefer my Woo Audio, which is also American made - in New York City of all places.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on March 23, 2013, 11:20:52 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 23, 2013, 11:03:41 AM


Yep, Schiit is American made, and affordable.  (Of course, some/many/most/all [?] of the internal components are not American made.)  I've had the Asgard headphone amp for a couple years, and it is very fine, indeed, though I prefer my Woo Audio, which is also American made - in New York City of all places.

I think Grado and Ohm are both located in Brooklyn, NY since their founding ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on March 23, 2013, 01:37:02 PM
Schiit...Asgard...sounds like an anal fixation to me!  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on March 23, 2013, 02:05:03 PM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on March 23, 2013, 01:37:02 PM
Schiit...Asgard...sounds like an anal fixation to me!  :)

I have heard of the brand but this is the first time I actually 'know' someone who has the DAC ...

If you have a CD transport or a quality CDP, a DAC may be the most economic way to upgrade the sound ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Geo Dude on April 21, 2013, 09:12:17 PM
At this point the only listening systems I have available are an iPod, a laptop, and my main 'system', a $60 boombox I've had for about ten years.

If anyone has any tips--and keep in mind that I'm a complete newbie when it comes to this stuff--I'd love to find something entry level to replace the boombox with.  A good 'musical' sound is nice, but at this point I'm fine with any reasonably small system that doesn't turn into a distorted mess any time a piano or brass instrument is involved.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Parsifal on April 21, 2013, 09:53:27 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on April 21, 2013, 09:12:17 PM
At this point the only listening systems I have available are an iPod, a laptop, and my main 'system', a $60 boombox I've had for about ten years.

If anyone has any tips--and keep in mind that I'm a complete newbie when it comes to this stuff--I'd love to find something entry level to replace the boombox with.  A good 'musical' sound is nice, but at this point I'm fine with any reasonably small system that doesn't turn into a distorted mess any time a piano or brass instrument is involved.

I'd suggest enhancing your iPod and laptop with a modest headphone amp, and a nice pair of over-ear headphones.

For the amp, one possibility is

http://www.headphone.com/headphone-amps/headroom-total-bithead.php

which would work with iPod or computer.  www.headphone.com also has lots of information about headphones.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Geo Dude on April 22, 2013, 05:54:03 AM
I've looked into that in the past but right now I'm interested in a system with speakers that I can run independent of the laptop.  That said, thanks for the link, I'll bookmark it for future reference when I'm looking to upgrade my headphone listening.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Geo Dude on April 22, 2013, 09:36:52 AM
I've bookmarked that for future reference, thanks.  Right now I'm looking for an independent set up to replace the boombox, though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Parsifal on April 22, 2013, 09:59:56 AM
The answer is going to depend on what you are willing to spend.  I get the impression you don't want to spend a lot.  For me the minimum system for listening to classical would be a basic CD player ($150) a stereo amplifier or receiver ($200) and a pair of bookshelf speakers ($300).  Anything less, and I'd restrict myself to headphones, which would give good sound quality for a lot less money.  You can also use a DVD player to play CDs.

I'd also suggest starting your investigation with a site like crutchfield.com, which vets what they carry to meet some reasonable standard of quality.  (There is a lot of consumer grade stuff which is designed to look good, not sound good.)

If you gave me 60 seconds to pick a bare-bones system from crutchfield, I'd pick
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_580TX8255/Onkyo-TX-8255.html
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_580C7030/Onkyo-C-7030.html
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_065A25B/Boston-Acoustics-A-25.html
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on April 22, 2013, 10:28:00 AM
Quote from: Parsifal on April 22, 2013, 09:59:56 AM
The answer is going to depend on what you are willing to spend.  I get the impression you don't want to spend a lot.  For me the minimum system for listening to classical would be a basic CD player ($150) a stereo amplifier or receiver ($200) and a pair of bookshelf speakers ($300).  Anything less, and I'd restrict myself to headphones, which would give good sound quality for a lot less money.  You can also use a DVD player to play CDs.

I'd also suggest starting your investigation with a site like crutchfield.com, which vets what they carry to meet some reasonable standard of quality.  (There is a lot of consumer grade stuff which is designed to look good, not sound good.)

If you gave me 60 seconds to pick a bare-bones system from crutchfield, I'd pick
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_580TX8255/Onkyo-TX-8255.html
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_580C7030/Onkyo-C-7030.html
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_065A25B/Boston-Acoustics-A-25.html

This is sound advice for a basic system and would be distinct step up from a "boombox".  I must mention, though, that small speakers of this sort don't have the bass frequencies extension to cover the whole instrument range since their low frequency cut-off is too high. In the A25 case, 55 Hz.   It's much better to have system that will go down to 40 Hz which will cover most instruments.

A reasonable approach is too buy a basic system like the above (more or less) and later add a powered subwoofer. A basic subwoofer might be $250+. In the case of the Onkyo TX-8255 I caution that it doesn't have a Subwoofer or stereo pair of "line level" connections to drive a subwoofer -- granted this is a very basic receiver.  Some subwoofers permit a "high level", i.e. main speaker-type connection but the results are likely to be inferior to a line level connections.

Another highly reputable US-based online vendor is Audio Advisor (http://www.audioadvisor.com/).

The following would be a pricier but significant upgrade over the system above. I added a subwoofer as the last item:

PSB Image B5 Bookshelf Speakers (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PBIMB5)
Cambridge Audio Topaz SR10 Receiver (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CATOSR10)
Cambridge Audio Topaz CD10 CD Player (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CATOCD10)
PSB Sub Series 125 Subwoofer (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PBSS125)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Geo Dude on April 22, 2013, 10:32:33 AM
Parsifal, thank you for the help.  If that's the sort of starting cost I'm looking at I'm perfectly willing to save up and pay it.  I'll take a look around crutchfield and take any other advice I can get.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Parsifal on April 22, 2013, 10:42:23 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on April 22, 2013, 10:32:33 AM
Parsifal, thank you for the help.  If that's the sort of starting cost I'm looking at I'm perfectly willing to save up and pay it.  I'll take a look around crutchfield and take any other advice I can get.

Glad to be of help.  I should point out that I don't specifically endorse those particular products, but that would be the general configuration and price range for a basic system. 

I agree with the suggestion above that a sub-woofer might be a subsequent addition.  You can add a subwoofer even if there is no dedicated subwoofer output on the amplifier.  I use a subwoofer (Polk audio) with some larger bookshelf speakers, and the speaker signal is passed through the subwoofer, which detects and amplifies the bass portion of the signal.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Geo Dude on April 22, 2013, 10:55:08 AM
Understood.  Thank you Feanor, too.  In any case, I have a subwoofer lying around (long story, I unfortunately do not know what model/brand it is, though) that will probably be of use when I can get the other parts together.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on May 10, 2013, 06:05:13 PM
(http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/167687/flags/LL)


I have a pair of custom speakers on order from Salk Sound which should be done in the next week or two, but in the interim I snagged these one-of-a-kind speakers direct from Dennis Murphy, the dude who designs Salk's crossovers (including mine), and has his own speaker line called Philharmonic Audio.  They are an updated version of the ACI Sapphire IIIs.  The main driver is the same Focal Kevlar woofer as the ACI, but the tweeter is the insanely bargain priced Vifa XT25 - $35-ish a pop for a frequency response curve that even some $400-a-pop tweeters can't match.  (The HD is perhaps not as good as some uber-high end tweets, but hey, the CSD is pretty freakin' sweet, too.) 

Anyway, these speakers have no real bass (cutoff is around 60 Hz), but from that point up they are superb.  I've listened to a number of discs and radio broadcasts, and I have nary a complaint.  A guitar and flute sonata (can't recall the composer right now), sounded smooth and supremely clear.  Sure, they can't play loud, and when I heard Massive Attack's Angel on the radio, the lack of bass induced a chuckle (it was unfair to listen to that song), but limits aside, these bad boys are among the biggest bargain I've stumbled across.  Since it is literally the only pair in existence, I count myself very lucky.  The super bargain price ($275 for speakers with components topping $200 in my estimation) just adds to the overall good feeling.  A chamber music fan's dream come true, I tell ya'. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 11, 2013, 05:50:38 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 10, 2013, 06:05:13 PM...
I have a pair of custom speakers on order from Salk Sound which should be done in the next week or two, but in the interim I snagged these one-of-a-kind speakers direct from Dennis Murphy, the dude who designs Salk's crossovers (including mine), and has his own speaker line called Philharmonic Audio.  They are an updated version of the ACI Sapphire IIIs.  The main driver is the same Focal Kevlar woofer as the ACI, but the tweeter is the insanely bargain priced Vifa XT25 - $35-ish a pop for a frequency response curve that even some $400-a-pop tweeters can't match.  (The HD is perhaps not as good as some uber-high end tweets, but hey, the CSD is pretty freakin' sweet, too.) 

Anyway, these speakers have no real bass (cutoff is around 60 Hz), but from that point up they are superb.  I've listened to a number of discs and radio broadcasts, and I have nary a complaint.  A guitar and flute sonata (can't recall the composer right now), sounded smooth and supremely clear.  Sure, they can't play loud, and when I heard Massive Attack's Angel on the radio, the lack of bass induced a chuckle (it was unfair to listen to that song), but limits aside, these bad boys are among the biggest bargain I've stumbled across.  Since it is literally the only pair in existence, I count myself very lucky.  The super bargain price ($275 for speakers with components topping $200 in my estimation) just adds to the overall good feeling.  A chamber music fan's dream come true, I tell ya'.

Sounds good, Todd. And they seems like a bargain.  The bass difficiency will be solved by use of a subwoofer. So, potentially, will be the loudness issue.

The ideal way to use the subwoofer is to have it carry all the sound below 80 Hz. You get this if you can use a low-pass filter to send the sub sound below 80 Hz and (N.B.) a high-pass filter that will send your main speakers only sound above 80 Hz.  The Salks will play louder without distortion because they won't have to try to reproduce the lowest notes. Unfortunately obtaining the high-pass filter can be a problem; most subwoofers provide only the low-pass filter they require, and most integrated amps and preamps  don't provide the high-pass as feature.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on May 26, 2013, 05:19:02 PM
(http://www.salksound.com/gallery/SC-ST-16/SC-ST-16-doubledyemaple-rosered.jpg)



After much contemplation, and a decent amount of time perusing the measurements on the Zaph audio site, I decided that the best solution for my last pair of floorstanding speakers for many years (barring a massive influx of heretofore unidentified cash) would be to go for a custom design.  I wanted maximum bass output, dynamic headroom, and overall clarity from the smallest possible speaker.  Seas Excel W16 woofers to the rescue - they have the same xmax as the 10" Excel drivers.  (I contemplated the equally impressive ScanSpeak Illuminators, but the T/S parameters bump up against MLTL limits from what I have read, and I didn't want a standard ported design.)  I also opted for an "exotic" finish (quilted maple with a double dye process).  My current speakers use the W15s, so sonically, they are just a bit thinner sounding than what will be arriving at my door on Tuesday.  I kept the insanely good RAAL ribbon tweeter - I just can't go back to domes for long term listening.  Salk Sound may add this design to their product offerings.  If my expectations are met - and both of the other pairs of Salks I have bought exceeded expectations - I'll be a happy camper.  They took three months to build from order to delivery, but that's fine by me.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: HIPster on May 26, 2013, 05:26:43 PM
Thanks for the update and photos, Todd.

Absolutely gorgeous finish on those speakers.

I look forward to further posts on listening to those beauties once they are up and running.

Congrats!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 27, 2013, 08:24:12 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 26, 2013, 05:19:02 PM
(http://www.salksound.com/gallery/SC-ST-16/SC-ST-16-doubledyemaple-rosered.jpg)
...
I wanted maximum bass output, dynamic headroom, and overall clarity from the smallest possible speaker.  Seas Excel W16 woofers to the rescue - they have the same xmax as the 10" Excel drivers.  (I contemplated the equally impressive ScanSpeak Illuminators, but the T/S parameters bump up against MLTL limits from what I have read, and I didn't want a standard ported design.)  I also opted for an "exotic" finish (quilted maple with a double dye process).  My current speakers use the W15s, so sonically, they are just a bit thinner sounding than what will be arriving at my door on Tuesday.  I kept the insanely good RAAL ribbon tweeter - I just can't go back to domes for long term listening.  Salk Sound may add this design to their product offerings.  If my expectations are met - and both of the other pairs of Salks I have bought exceeded expectations - I'll be a happy camper.  They took three months to build from order to delivery, but that's fine by me.

So I guess those are the Salk SongTower Supercharged? Congrats! No doubt they are great.

It's interesting that their transmission line design permits placement closer to the walls without the usual issues. (see HERE (http://www.salksound.com/songtower%20supercharged%20home.htm))
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on May 27, 2013, 08:39:21 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on May 27, 2013, 08:24:12 AMSo I guess those are the Salk SongTower Supercharged? Congrats! No doubt they are great.


They are more like Supercharged Supercharged SongTowers.  Jim is looking for a new name, and will probably put them in the Veracity line.  The standard SCST uses W15s; those are what I currently use in my main system.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on June 04, 2013, 02:54:37 AM


  Dear all,

I need help. So please help.  I am 40 years old and have grown up listening to cassettes and now CDs/mp3/AAC files. I am now seriously thinking of getting a turntable.  Why? Well, I have been hearing (pun intended) how much better analogue recordings sound than their digital counterparts and I am intrigued. Yes I know about the pops and clicks but if the sound is considerably better (IE more alive, more like the real perfromance) then I would like to investigate further.  I am considering the Project Debut Carbon turntable.  Is this a wise investment? Or am I headed (unnecessarily) down a narrow dark alley? Should I just stick to CDs instead?

  Please help!

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on June 04, 2013, 02:58:19 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 04, 2013, 02:54:37 AM
Or am I headed (unnecessarily) down a narrow dark alley? Should I just stick to CDs instead?

  Please help!

  marvin
Only you can tell. But be aware that there ARE differences between CD players and DACS, and that the serious stuff can make a significant difference also in the digital domain.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on June 04, 2013, 03:20:26 AM
Quote from: The new erato on June 04, 2013, 02:58:19 AM
Only you can tell. But be aware that there ARE differences between CD players and DACS, and that the serious stuff can make a significant difference also in the digital domain.

  Thank you for the quick reply.  I have a decent DAC (the Marantz CD6004) which produces remarkably accurate sound.  But I have been reading that there is something about the sound of vinyl, it being analogue and all that gives a unique and more realistic accurate sound that digital is just incapable of delivering. Is there any truth to this? Or am I better off upgrading the CD/DAC player instead?

  marvin
 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on June 04, 2013, 03:26:55 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 04, 2013, 03:20:26 AM
  Thank you for the quick reply.  I have a decent DAC (the Marantz CD6004) which produces remarkably accurate sound.  But I have been reading that there is something about the sound of vinyl, it being analogue and all that gives a unique and more realistic accurate sound that digital is just incapable of delivering. Is there any truth to this? Or am I better off upgrading the CD/DAC player instead?

  marvin

Analog sound can be amazingly realistic. As can digital sound, given that things are done right. What wins out for me is the convenience, availability and price of digital music vs vinyl. Getting an LP player to sound right requires somededication, and for me it seems that it requires some interest in the medium in addition to the interest in the music. As I said - whether it is right for you is difficult to tell. I have 1000 LPs and a LP player, but never use them. But I also have a 4000 USD digital rig, as well as a couple of  CD/SACD players at around half that price.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on June 04, 2013, 03:27:40 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 04, 2013, 03:20:26 AM
  Thank you for the quick reply.  I have a decent DAC (the Marantz CD6004) which produces remarkably accurate sound.  But I have been reading that there is something about the sound of vinyl, it being analogue and all that gives a unique and more realistic accurate sound that digital is just incapable of delivering. Is there any truth to this? Or am I better off upgrading the CD/DAC player instead?

  marvin


I am convinced that the overwhelming part of why vinyl sounds better than digital formats do is psychological -- namely found in the reason that the very act of taking a vinyl out, placing it on the turn table, placing the needle, putting the LP cover off to the side, and sitting down -- that this ritual focuses the mind, enhanced concentration, and therefore gives the impression of better sound, thanks too the much keener listening that results. It's really the same as decanting a red wine (instead of having it on tap in boxes) or the stuffing of a pipe instead of the quick cigarette...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on June 04, 2013, 05:08:01 AM
Quote from: The new erato on June 04, 2013, 03:26:55 AM
Analog sound can be amazingly realistic. As can digital sound, given that things are done right. What wins out for me is the convenience, availability and price of digital music vs vinyl. Getting an LP player to sound right requires somededication, and for me it seems that it requires some interest in the medium in addition to the interest in the music. As I said - whether it is right for you is difficult to tell. I have 1000 LPs and a LP player, but never use them. But I also have a 4000 USD digital rig, as well as a couple of  CD/SACD players at around half that price.

  I hear what you say about convenience.  If I am going to entertain vinyl further it will probably be for recordings that mean the most to me- the one's I like best. You have a superb setup by the way (nice pictures on your link). It far exceeds anything I'll ever have.  I was struck by how you have 1000 LPs but never use them.  This is a clear indication to me that the "vinyl" sound is not all it is cracked up to be. Anyway, I will experiment, vinly records can be had for £1 at my local oxfam.  I figured it would be worth a shot.  thank you so much for your feedback.

Quote from: jlaurson on June 04, 2013, 03:27:40 AM
I am convinced that the overwhelming part of why vinyl sounds better than digital formats do is psychological -- namely found in the reason that the very act of taking a vinyl out, placing it on the turn table, placing the needle, putting the LP cover off to the side, and sitting down -- that this ritual focuses the mind, enhanced concentration, and therefore gives the impression of better sound, thanks too the much keener listening that results. It's really the same as decanting a red wine (instead of having it on tap in boxes) or the stuffing of a pipe instead of the quick cigarette...

  Talk about "romanticizing" an experience!  Nice post btw.

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on June 04, 2013, 05:38:06 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 04, 2013, 03:20:26 AMBut I have been reading that there is something about the sound of vinyl



Vinyl sounds warmer and has more distortion than digital.  Which one sounds better is purely a matter of preference.  For classical, I generally find digital better, though string quartets sound superb, and some piano recordings are quite good.  Vinyl works better for much rock and jazz.  The biggest drawback is selection: very few new recordings are released on LP. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on June 04, 2013, 06:45:30 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 04, 2013, 05:38:06 AM


Vinyl sounds warmer and has more distortion than digital.  Which one sounds better is purely a matter of preference.   The biggest drawback is selection: very few new recordings are released on LP.
My opinion exactly. Remember: even harmonics are very musical and may be the reason some people prefer vinyl and tubes - which have lots of them. You have to work out what works for you.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 04, 2013, 06:00:09 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 04, 2013, 02:54:37 AM

  Dear all,

I need help. So please help.  I am 40 years old and have grown up listening to cassettes and now CDs/mp3/AAC files. I am now seriously thinking of getting a turntable.  Why? Well, I have been hearing (pun intended) how much better analogue recordings sound than their digital counterparts and I am intrigued. Yes I know about the pops and clicks but if the sound is considerably better (IE more alive, more like the real perfromance) then I would like to investigate further.  I am considering the Project Debut Carbon turntable.  Is this a wise investment? Or am I headed (unnecessarily) down a narrow dark alley? Should I just stick to CDs instead?

  Please help!

  marvin

If you're a mainly a classical listener, stick to CD where the selection is many times greater.  People who argue for vinyl and are also classical listeners most often have large LP collections that date back to 1990 & earlier when LP was still the prevalent medium.

Does LP sound better?  Well read what others have said here.  Personally I say it doesn't if you have good reproduction equipment, (though LP sounds different so there is matter of simple preference).

For several years now I buy most of my music on CD but rip it immediately to lossless computer files, (FLAC or ALAC), and listen exclusively from my dedicated music computer. Basically I never listen to actual "silver discs" any more. Note that good external DACs can sound much, much better than the standard, build-in computer DACs, (the ubiquitous Realtek audio chips).

Becoming more common are CD-quality and even higher resolution downloads; such downloads might eventually displace "silver discs" but for now physical CDs offer by far the greatest selection. SACD, (also silver disc), is an option for the classical listener though a special SACD player is necessary and, again, the selection is much smaller than CD.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 04, 2013, 07:17:38 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 04, 2013, 02:54:37 AM
  I am considering the Project Debut Carbon turntable.  Is this a wise investment?

Marvin - that's the turntable I just got. I can't compare turntables, but I can tell you I'm fairly hooked on vinyl now.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on June 05, 2013, 01:46:30 AM


  Dear All,

  First of all I would like to thank everyone here for contributing to the discussion.  I very much appreciate all of your inputs and I am very gratefull to you all.  As I understand it now, vinyl sounds "different" and "different" is not necessarily "better" ( IE a more accurate life sounding sound).  "Better" sound comes from mastering techniques.  But more importantly, the more I am researching vinyl the more I am concerned about the added "work" that will be required to clean and maintain records, flip records over (Wagner's Ring for example is on 22 double sided records, which means that I am going to have to get up 43 times after side 1), replace cartridges which costs money...and then there is the issue of it degrading with every playback, rewind and fastforward also become issues....oh dear.................. That said I am not prepared to close the door on vinyl just yet, I need to hear a demonstration first.  I have scheduled one this Friday. I am trying to be as open minded as I possible can about this.

   PS: It is not my intention to leave the CD/digital domain. Oh no, I have invested heavily in this medium, but if there is something additional that vinyl could add, why not?

  marvin

 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on June 05, 2013, 01:50:43 AM
I think you are going about this the right way.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 05, 2013, 04:53:46 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 05, 2013, 01:46:30 AM
  Dear All,

  First of all I would like to thank everyone here for contributing to the discussion.  I very much appreciate all of your inputs and I am very gratefull to you all.  As I understand it now, vinyl sounds "different" and "different" is not necessarily "better" ( IE a more accurate life sounding sound).  "Better" sound comes from mastering techniques.  But more importantly, the more I am researching vinyl the more I am concerned about the added "work" that will be required to clean and maintain records, flip records over (Wagner's Ring for example is on 22 double sided records, which means that I am going to have to get up 43 times after side 1), replace cartridges which costs money...and then there is the issue of it degrading with every playback, rewind and fastforward also become issues....oh dear.................. That said I am not prepared to close the door on vinyl just yet, I need to hear a demonstration first.  I have scheduled one this Friday. I am trying to be as open minded as I possible can about this.

   PS: It is not my intention to leave the CD/digital domain. Oh no, I have invested heavily in this medium, but if there is something additional that vinyl could add, why not?

  marvin

Frankly the "work" as you accurately refer to it, was a big factor that send me to CD in the mid '80s, not the sound, nor the selection at the time. Others were the finite life time of LPs.

However quite a few vinyl lovers perversely love the rituals of LP handling and turntable tuning -- go figure.  I can't even stand physical CD handling any more: give me point & click.

A "last straw" for me was the time I accidentally smashed a $500 cartridge the first time I used it.  >:(  :(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on June 05, 2013, 05:36:46 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on June 05, 2013, 04:53:46 AM


A "last straw" for me was the time I accidentally smashed a $500 cartridge the first time I used it.  >:(  :(

  Ouch! I am so sorry to hear about that.  I have heard that cartdriges tend to be a bit fragile.  I didn't think they were THAT fragile.

Quote from: Velimir on June 04, 2013, 07:17:38 PM
Marvin - that's the turntable I just got. I can't compare turntables, but I can tell you I'm fairly hooked on vinyl now.  :)

  Congratulations on your new turntable.  I would like to ask you if you had replace the cartridge yet?  I have been told that if I play records frequently the cartridge needs to be replaced once every 6 months.

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on June 05, 2013, 05:39:48 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 05, 2013, 05:36:46 AM
    Congratulations on your new turntable.  I would like to ask you if you had replace the cartridge yet?  I have been told that if I play records frequently the cartridge needs to be replaced once every 6 months.

  marvin
I think we'tre talking lifetimes in the 1000 of hours here, 6 months seems absurdly short (and I was an avid vinyl spinner back in the days).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 05, 2013, 05:42:17 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 05, 2013, 05:36:46 AM

  Congratulations on your new turntable.  I would like to ask you if you had replace the cartridge yet?  I have been told that if I play records frequently the cartridge needs to be replaced once every 6 months.

No. I've only had it a month, and the guy at the audio store told me it had a useful life of 500-1000 hours. So I'm expecting to replace it about once a year.

BTW a nice thing about the Pro-Ject is that it comes with the cartridge already mounted.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Parsifal on June 05, 2013, 07:57:28 AM
Quote from: The new erato on June 05, 2013, 05:39:48 AM
I think we'tre talking lifetimes in the 1000 of hours here, 6 months seems absurdly short (and I was an avid vinyl spinner back in the days).

The cartridge never has to be replaced, unless the stylus is not replacable these days.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on June 08, 2013, 10:00:33 AM
  without prejudice

  Dear all,

  As some of you know I have been considering buying a turntable and starting a vinyl collection. Yesterday after work, I booked a demonstration at the local Hifi shop. I wanted to do a comparison between a vinyl record and its CD counterpart. The record I picked was Karajan's Die Meistersinger von Nuremberg (Dresden) on EMI. I bought a used copy of this in very good condition. I have the CD of this recording in my collection. The set up was the system I have at home: Marantz PM6004 CD and amp and monitor audio speakers. The turntable used was the Project Debut Carbon. I kept alternating between vinyl and CD.

  Conclusions: the CD sounded " brighter" and"crisper" but more importantly CLEARER than the vinyl. The vinyl had more depth but clarity and dynamic range were not as impressive as the CD. The occasional static on the vinyl annoyed the hell out of me. I found myself drawn more to the CDs clarity more than anything else. The more I listened the less I was impressed with the vinyl. Needless to say, I did not buy the Project Debit Carbon Turntable.

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Parsifal on June 08, 2013, 12:36:00 PM
Your experience is similar to mine.  The lower distortion/increased clarity of CD is the overriding factor.  There are cases where the LP "sounds better" than the CD, but normally that is because the frequency equalization has been messed up and the CD sounds too bright.  It used to happen a lot in the early days of remastering, probably because the producer were anxious to show that the analog recordings sounded better on CD and making them brighter made them seem more "digital."  But in case of over-bright remastering jobs the situations can normally be remedied using the tone control or an equalizer.


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 08, 2013, 03:55:36 PM
Quote from: Parsifal on June 08, 2013, 12:36:00 PM
Your experience is similar to mine.  The lower distortion/increased clarity of CD is the overriding factor.  There are cases where the LP "sounds better" than the CD, but normally that is because the frequency equalization has been messed up and the CD sounds too bright.  It used to happen a lot in the early days of remastering, probably because the producer were anxious to show that the analog recordings sounded better on CD and making them brighter made them seem more "digital."  But in case of over-bright remastering jobs the situations can normally be remedied using the tone control or an equalizer.

In my opinion CDs are still produced too bright. I have equipment to accurately measure frequency response at my listening position and also the means to equalize the sound from my system so that response measures flat. However this accurately flat response sounds far, far too bright in case of almost all classical recordings. To get a more natural level while still getting all the harmonics, I have to roll off response gradually from about 4000 Hz so it is down 5-6 dB at 10,000 Hz.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Parsifal on June 08, 2013, 03:59:56 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on June 08, 2013, 03:55:36 PM
In my opinion CDs are still produced too bright. I have equipment to accurately measure frequency response at my listening position and also the means to equalize the sound from my system so that response measures flat. However this accurate, flat response sounds far, far too bright in case of almost all classical recordings. To get a more natural while still getting all the harmonics, I have to roll off response gradually from about 4000 Hz so it is down 5-6 dB at 10,000 Hz.

My experience is similar, although it varies by label and by individual recording.  Telarc recordings generally sound the most naturally equalized to me (except early Telarc which made every piece sound like a bass-drum concerto).  Teldec, MDG and BIS are generally not as bad as most, in my experience. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 07, 2013, 10:18:09 AM
Well here is a question: Are there any surround sound systems that do well with classical music? I do not currently have any surround sound, but as our tv is old, we have been considering a new one. If we get a new one, we were thinking of getting a surround sound system as well. If we do that, I was wondering how well (if at all) these systems would do for classical music. It only occurred to me because the system would be in the main room, and it would be nice to hear music through the whole house sometimes.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 07, 2013, 11:58:50 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 07, 2013, 10:18:09 AM
Well here is a question: Are there any surround sound systems that do well with classical music?

Of course there is. In fact I think classical music is one of the few areas where multichannel recordings (SACDs etc.) work well.

For movie soundtracks subwoofers are important (5.1, 6.1, 7.1) but for music a system without subwoofer works well if the main speaker can deliver enough bass. I have a compromise of these two: a passive subwoofer that extents the bass of my main speakers that are identical with my center and surrouns speakers (that's a 5.(1) setup). For good results the center speaker must be identical with main speakers except for the lowest frequencies that can be re-directed (functional bass management must be supported!). Not only frequency response but also phase-response must match. Using 3 identical front speakers is simple solution. Even better if rear-speakers are identical too. Since the center speaker is often placed acoustically differently from main speakers, there usually is a need to adjust response. My center speaker is lower (under tv) so I cut frequencies below 300 Hz a bit to balance stronger floor effect.

Good surround system is not always easy to install. Too many compromises makes it waste of money and investing into a really good stereo system instead might be a good idea.   



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 07, 2013, 01:16:30 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 07, 2013, 11:58:50 AM
Of course there is. In fact I think classical music is one of the few areas where multichannel recordings (SACDs etc.) work well.

For movie soundtracks subwoofers are important (5.1, 6.1, 7.1) but for music a system without subwoofer works well if the main speaker can deliver enough bass. I have a compromise of these two: a passive subwoofer that extents the bass of my main speakers that are identical with my center and surrouns speakers (that's a 5.(1) setup). For good results the center speaker must be identical with main speakers except for the lowest frequencies that can be re-directed (functional bass management must be supported!). Not only frequency response but also phase-response must match. Using 3 identical front speakers is simple solution. Even better if rear-speakers are identical too. Since the center speaker is often placed acoustically differently from main speakers, there usually is a need to adjust response. My center speaker is lower (under tv) so I cut frequencies below 300 Hz a bit to balance stronger floor effect.

Good surround system is not always easy to install. Too many compromises makes it waste of money and investing into a really good stereo system instead might be a good idea.   
Actually, I like this idea. I am sure my wife would dislike cables/wires intensely, and the supposed 'wireless' systems are not truly wireless. I understand the regular stereo system better too and hiding components or picking more stylish pieces will be easier (I think). 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Parsifal on September 07, 2013, 02:10:51 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 07, 2013, 10:18:09 AM
Well here is a question: Are there any surround sound systems that do well with classical music? I do not currently have any surround sound, but as our tv is old, we have been considering a new one. If we get a new one, we were thinking of getting a surround sound system as well. If we do that, I was wondering how well (if at all) these systems would do for classical music. It only occurred to me because the system would be in the main room, and it would be nice to hear music through the whole house sometimes.

The main thing is not to buy a system that describes itself as "home theater."  In such systems, neutral reproduction of sound is not the goal.  The goal is that when a bomb goes off in the movie your house should be knocked off its foundation.

Find speakers that have a reputation for good music reproduction and simply buy 5 of them instead of 2.  In most cases, the company will make a center-channel version of the speaker than you can use the the center channel.  (Typcially the shape is more appropriate for center placement and the bass response is not as good.)  For the amplifier, restrict yourself to brands that have a reputation for audiophile sound (Marantz, NAD, Yamaha, etc).

My own experience is that there are not so many multichannel recordings available, and if you have a finite budget it is better to get 2 really good speakers than 5 middling speakers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on September 07, 2013, 03:27:44 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 08, 2013, 10:00:33 AM
  Conclusions: the CD sounded " brighter" and"crisper" but more importantly CLEARER than the vinyl. The vinyl had more depth but clarity and dynamic range were not as impressive as the CD. The occasional static on the vinyl annoyed the hell out of me. I found myself drawn more to the CDs clarity more than anything else. The more I listened the less I was impressed with the vinyl. Needless to say, I did not buy the Project Debit Carbon Turntable.

I don't doubt it for a second.  I'll almost always choose an EMI CD over the Lp, though there are cases where they mucked up their transfers (e.g. Callas).  In particular, the EMI Lps pressed in the US by Capitol (Angel) were often crap.  UK pressed Lps were always smoother and quieter sounding.  Of course an Angel copy is often all you can find in the US these days.  Also records need to be cleaned, even if they look pristine.  And I don't really think much of these entry level turntables, particularly for orchestral music.  None of this is an argument for the superiority of Lps, of course.  The reason for getting a turntable is that you have records you want to listen to.

That said, a well made Lp in good condition can sound wonderful on good equipment.

My hypotheses on why some people prefer Lps:

* Compression was used in the mastering and cutting process.  This adds "presence" and makes the dynamic range more manageable in the average domestic listening room.
* Much of the music was recorded for Lp in mind.
* Exclusivity.  CD brought "hi-fi" to the masses.  You didn't need to know how to align a cartridge to get the best sound.  There was nothing to adjust at all.
* Lp playback can be fun, in a geeky way.  It's more tactile.
* Early CD players sounded terrible.  DACs have improved a lot in just the past decade.
* Many vinyl fans listen to to music where surface noise -- noise that would be bothersome in a quiet orchestral passage -- is well below the volume level of the music.
* Nostalgia.  Even people who were born in the digital era are affected by this.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 08, 2013, 01:10:42 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 07, 2013, 02:10:51 PM
The main thing is not to buy a system that describes itself as "home theater."  In such systems, neutral reproduction of sound is not the goal.  The goal is that when a bomb goes off in the movie your house should be knocked off its foundation.

Cheap supermarket systems call themselves "home theater". You don't get earthquake bass out of those tiny boxes. Real subwoofers and neutral sound aren't exclusive. Movie soundtracks contain ridiculous bass bursts, so a house knocked off it foundations is only part of neutral sound reproduction.  If you want to keep your house in place, buy a smaller subwoofer, turn the volume down or watch old movies without bass.

Quote from: Scarpia on September 07, 2013, 02:10:51 PMFind speakers that have a reputation for good music reproduction and simply buy 5 of them instead of 2.

Exactly.

Quote from: Scarpia on September 07, 2013, 02:10:51 PMIn most cases, the company will make a center-channel version of the speaker than you can use the the center channel.  (Typcially the shape is more appropriate for center placement and the bass response is not as good.)

Actually those "horizontal" center spearkers are often bad because the sound radiation pattern differs from "vertical" speakers. In cases when only one coaxial speaker cone is used, the result might be very good but when there's separate bass and treble cones, go for identical speakers.

It's sad that people has been "brainwashed" to think those horizontal "bass-treble-bass" boxes are real center speakers.

Some speaker manufacturers have "identical" floor and pedestal speakers, where the pedestal model is simply the upper part of the floor speaker. Acoustically these speaker are almost identical, lowest bass being the only difference. A system of floor model as main speakers and pedestal model as center and rear speakers may work well even without a subwoofer, since bigger floor speakers can produce bass quite well.

Quote from: Scarpia on September 07, 2013, 02:10:51 PMFor the amplifier, restrict yourself to brands that have a reputation for audiophile sound (Marantz, NAD, Yamaha, etc).

Agreed.

Quote from: Scarpia on September 07, 2013, 02:10:51 PMMy own experience is that there are not so many multichannel recordings available, and if you have a finite budget it is better to get 2 really good speakers than 5 middling speakers.

Depends on how you count them. Of course the amount of multichannel recordings is a tiny fraction of the amout of stereofonic recordings.

Purists may disagree but in my opionion many stereo classical music recordings work surprisingly well in surround modes like Dolby Pro Logic II. Acoustic recordings have natural ambience and limited phase/amplitude differencies between channels. This means that these matrix-decoders don't add vicious artifacts to the sound image. How well this works depends on how the recording is made, what kind of microphone set-up is used etc. I have noticed that "church music" with long reverberation usually works very well adding the feel of ambience while acoustically dry chamber music is best listened in stereo mode. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 08, 2013, 09:19:55 AM
Quote from: Daverz on September 07, 2013, 03:27:44 PM
My hypotheses on why some people prefer Lps:

* [snipped]

I agree with most of these, but one extra I've noticed is that LPs seem to produce a bigger, more space-filling sound. Maybe this is totally subjective, because I rarely see other people pointing it out. But I really do feel like I'm sitting closer to the performers, or something like that.

On the whole, CDs win on points. I didn't get into LPs for the sound quality anyway, but because a lot of records were never reissued on CD, are difficult to find in that medium, or were somehow botched in the reissue.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on September 08, 2013, 10:13:44 AM
Quote from: Velimir on September 08, 2013, 09:19:55 AM
I agree with most of these, but one extra I've noticed is that LPs seem to produce a bigger, more space-filling sound. Maybe this is totally subjective, because I rarely see other people pointing it out. But I really do feel like I'm sitting closer to the performers, or something like that.

There's more of a sense of space being filled between the speakers.

For me, chamber music seem to come off best on Lp.   For most orchestral music, I'd generally rather have the CD.

One issue is that I hate cleaning records (I have a VPI 16.5), and I have a lot of dusty used records.  I wish I could afford that new ultrasonic cleaning machine.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 08, 2013, 01:53:23 PM
Quote from: Daverz on September 08, 2013, 10:13:44 AM

For me, chamber music seem to come off best on Lp.   For most orchestral music, I'd generally rather have the CD.


My impression too. Chamber music sounds nice and comfy with the ambient LP sound. But that same sound can smother orchestral detail.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 08, 2013, 04:24:24 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31rjxcoICoL.jpg)


Whilst at Best Buy to get a new monitor for my PC, I decided on a whim to buy the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR mini-monitors for the princely sum of $130.  They look cheap with cheap, presumably fake black oak (or whatever) veneer and cheap grill, but the sound is most impressive for the money.  The obviously low-cost tweeter is expertly deployed, with very well controlled sibilance, and it rolls off nicely in-room so as not to offend.  The woofer is pretty darn good through the mids, though the upper bass is very obviously boosted and can sound wooly at times.  They work quite well with piano recordings, but not quite so well with rock music.  These can compete with some speakers in the $500-ish range (or even much higher if one wanted to compare them to horrid Wilson CUBBs).  They may end up in an office system at some point, or perhaps the kitchen.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on September 09, 2013, 05:11:36 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on June 08, 2013, 03:55:36 PM
In my opinion CDs are still produced too bright. I have equipment to accurately measure frequency response at my listening position and also the means to equalize the sound from my system so that response measures flat. However this accurately flat response sounds far, far too bright in case of almost all classical recordings. To get a more natural level while still getting all the harmonics, I have to roll off response gradually from about 4000 Hz so it is down 5-6 dB at 10,000 Hz.

Movies are mastered that way (with the expectation that the upper-mids/treble will be cut by 5 dB).  Music has no such standard (or any standard), but it could be that they've drifted to the standard that movies used.  Many (but not all) digital era recordings sound a touch bright to me too.  But since there are also many recordings with a more natural sound you really have to be flexible.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 13, 2013, 05:05:13 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 09, 2013, 05:11:36 AM
Movies are mastered that way {too bright} (with the expectation that the upper-mids/treble will be cut by 5 dB).  Music has no such standard (or any standard), but it could be that they've drifted to the standard that movies used.  Many (but not all) digital era recordings sound a touch bright to me too.  But since there are also many recordings with a more natural sound you really have to be flexible.

Maybe the reason is as you say.  I any case I just leave my correction on at all times without fine-tuning for given recordings.  This works for me.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on October 04, 2013, 08:19:57 AM
 :D
On Sunday I'll be taking delivery of some very fancy hardware...but somewhat old.  It consists of two oak cased floor standing speakers (three way I think) and an accompanying Amp.  My sister in law who is a music nut (but sadly not Classical) bought them to compliment some high end audio equipment in 2001, and at that time the whole system bundle cost over £1,500.  She has changed her audio setup now, and I'm the lucky guy who gets the stuff!  Free.  (I'm a relative!)  I am excited as hell, because obviously I have heard her setup in action, and the sound from those speakers was OUTSTANDING in every way.  I remember enviously thinking they would be perfect for my music.   :P
For all the audiophiles here, I will return on Sunday in suitably excited fashion to report exactly what they are, make, wattage, etc, and post a picture.  I know the audiophiles here already have monster high end stuff, but it will be  nice to share what difference such an upgrade makes to someone who isn't all there when it comes to more sophisticated setups.
:D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 04, 2013, 07:40:15 PM
Quote from: Scots John on October 04, 2013, 08:19:57 AM
:D
On Sunday I'll be taking delivery of some very fancy hardware...but somewhat old.  It consists of two oak cased floor standing speakers (three way I think) and an accompanying Amp.  My sister in law who is a music nut (but sadly not Classical) bought them to compliment some high end audio equipment in 2001, and at that time the whole system bundle cost over £1,500.  She has changed her audio setup now, and I'm the lucky guy who gets the stuff!  Free.  (I'm a relative!)  I am excited as hell, because obviously I have heard her setup in action, and the sound from those speakers was OUTSTANDING in every way.  I remember enviously thinking they would be perfect for my music.   :P
For all the audiophiles here, I will return on Sunday in suitably excited fashion to report exactly what they are, make, wattage, etc, and post a picture.  I know the audiophiles here already have monster high end stuff, but it will be  nice to share what difference such an upgrade makes to someone who isn't all there when it comes to more sophisticated setups.
:D

Oooh, mystery speakers.  I gather that these are a British make?  Tannoy, perhaps?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on October 05, 2013, 01:45:58 AM
Quote from: Daverz on October 04, 2013, 07:40:15 PM
Oooh, mystery speakers.  I gather that these are a British make?  Tannoy, perhaps?

I think they are German...not sure though...will excitedly reply tomorrow.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on October 06, 2013, 12:58:42 PM
I have these now, which Daverz correctly suggested may be English...

(http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/487244-a_pair_of_rega_jura_floorstanding_biwireable_speakers_for_a_rega_p2_or_p3_or_comparable.jpg)
(http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/487243-a_pair_of_rega_jura_floorstanding_biwireable_speakers_for_a_rega_p2_or_p3_or_comparable.jpg)
Photos (c) http://www.canuckaudiomart.com

I also inherited a 'Marantz' amp to go along.

(http://www.hifiengine.com/images/model/marantz_pm6010.jpg)
;D
The speakers are engineered (hand built!) for 'natural sound' - so no fancy audio enhancement hardware such as separate woofers, etc, are necessary, and nor so I have any mind to switch on any equalizers, effects or anything from third part sources with this setup - because it sounds brilliantly balanced already. They less than a foot away from the wall and giving good bass for it, without mugging everything else out.  I sit about ten feet away from them on the other side of the room, and have them positioned so that their potential is fully maximized.  The difference in sound quality now has gone through the roof.  I didn't hear those newfound violin mistakes in Davis's Sibelius 7 with the LSO before, it all sounded fine, but with the above setup I can hear things going on that have given me an eye popping Jim Carey-like amazement with what stuff is going on in the background there!
My god.  I have come of age here on GMG!   :P ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 06, 2013, 01:44:30 PM
Quote from: Scots John on October 06, 2013, 12:58:42 PM
I have these now, which Daverz correctly suggested may be English...

(http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/487244-a_pair_of_rega_jura_floorstanding_biwireable_speakers_for_a_rega_p2_or_p3_or_comparable.jpg)
(http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/487243-a_pair_of_rega_jura_floorstanding_biwireable_speakers_for_a_rega_p2_or_p3_or_comparable.jpg)
Photos (c) http://www.canuckaudiomart.com


(http://www.hifiengine.com/images/model/marantz_pm6010.jpg)


Very nice.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on October 06, 2013, 01:52:47 PM
Here it is in situ.  I am as chuffed about this as a five year old.   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on October 06, 2013, 02:36:22 PM
Quote from: Scots John on October 06, 2013, 01:52:47 PM
Here it is in situ.  I am as chuffed about this as a five year old.   ;D ;D ;D

Very good and very tastefully done. Bravo!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: HIPster on October 06, 2013, 02:40:50 PM
Nice scores!

Rega makes some very fine equipment and that Marantz piece is highly rated (and looks beautiful).

I bet it sounds great.


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 07, 2013, 04:22:18 AM
Nice equipment John... now move them away from the wall and you'll really hear what the speakers can do!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on October 07, 2013, 04:27:35 AM
Experimenting a little with speaker placement - and these aren't too heavy I guess - is good advice. Cheapest upgrade available if one has the space.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on October 07, 2013, 09:29:22 AM
Quote from: Scots John on October 06, 2013, 12:58:42 PM
I have these now, which Daverz correctly suggested may be English...

(http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/487244-a_pair_of_rega_jura_floorstanding_biwireable_speakers_for_a_rega_p2_or_p3_or_comparable.jpg)
(http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/487243-a_pair_of_rega_jura_floorstanding_biwireable_speakers_for_a_rega_p2_or_p3_or_comparable.jpg)
Photos (c) http://www.canuckaudiomart.com

I also inherited a 'Marantz' amp to go along.

(http://www.hifiengine.com/images/model/marantz_pm6010.jpg)
;D
The speakers are engineered (hand built!) for 'natural sound' - so no fancy audio enhancement hardware such as separate woofers, etc, are necessary, and nor so I have any mind to switch on any equalizers, effects or anything from third part sources with this setup - because it sounds brilliantly balanced already. They less than a foot away from the wall and giving good bass for it, without mugging everything else out.  I sit about ten feet away from them on the other side of the room, and have them positioned so that their potential is fully maximized.  The difference in sound quality now has gone through the roof.  I didn't hear those newfound violin mistakes in Davis's Sibelius 7 with the LSO before, it all sounded fine, but with the above setup I can hear things going on that have given me an eye popping Jim Carey-like amazement with what stuff is going on in the background there!
My god.  I have come of age here on GMG!   :P ;D ;D ;D ;D

  Congratulations on your new system! Marantz do indeed make very good amps! I have the Marantz PM6004 amp and CD combo. What model is that Marantz?

  Ever since I bought my system last year, I have been rediscovering my collection all over again. Floor standing speakers are indeed the way to go. You should position the speakers with your listening position so as to form an equilateral triangle with you sitting at the apex of that triangle. 2-3 meters apart should be sufficient. There is a "sweet spot", you will know it when you position yourself there.  The best way I can describe it is that at that position the speakers seem to disappear, the vocals appear to be coming from various positions (usually the centre depending on the recording) in a soundstage produced  between the speakers. it is truly marvellous! Verdi's operas never sounded this good on headphones or tiny bookshelf speakers,

  Happy listening!

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 07, 2013, 09:59:10 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on October 07, 2013, 09:29:22 AM
What model is that Marantz?
Hint: When people post pictures, the filenames often tell a lot. This time the address of the picture (right click => image properties) is:

http://www.hifiengine.com/images/model/marantz_pm6010.jpg

So, a Marantz PM6010 it is.  ;)

Quote from: marvinbrown on October 07, 2013, 09:29:22 AMVerdi's operas never sounded this good on headphones or tiny bookshelf speakers,

  marvin

Did you use a crossfeeder with headphones? With a crossfeeder headphones rule.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on October 07, 2013, 10:36:46 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 07, 2013, 09:59:10 AM
Hint: When people post pictures, the filenames often tell a lot. This time the address of the picture (right click => image properties) is:
http://www.hifiengine.com/images/model/marantz_pm6010.jpg
So, a Marantz PM6010 it is.  ;)

71 dB - spot on.

Quote from: marvinbrown on October 07, 2013, 09:29:22 AM
  Congratulations ...You should position the speakers with your listening position so as to form an equilateral triangle with you sitting at the apex of that triangle. 2-3 meters apart should be sufficient. There is a "sweet spot", you will know it when you position yourself there.  The best way I can describe it is that at that position the speakers seem to disappear, the vocals appear to be coming from various positions (usually the centre depending on the recording) in a soundstage produced  between the speakers. it is truly marvellous! Verdi's operas never sounded this good on headphones or tiny bookshelf speakers...
;D
I found that sweet spot Marvin, whilst listening to some kind of trio by Mendelssohn for clarinet, viola and piano.  By the end of listening to it, I knew exactly where the piano was playing in front of me (it was slightly off left), the Clarinettist was in the middle and Violist to the right.  I could recognize that whilst at the same time experiencing the music in front of me in..er..all the ...eh...fullness of its glory.. :-[ 
I sit about 10 feet away, direct opposite the speakers which are 6 feet apart (approx) and angled just to hit me with that sweet spot every time.  It is outrageous and wonderful what I experience in music now, never mind the straightforward listening to it. 
Total Concert Hall experience in my wee hoose.  :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on October 07, 2013, 01:51:30 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 07, 2013, 09:59:10 AM
Hint: When people post pictures, the filenames often tell a lot. This time the address of the picture (right click => image properties) is:

http://www.hifiengine.com/images/model/marantz_pm6010.jpg

So, a Marantz PM6010 it is.  ;)

Did you use a crossfeeder with headphones? With a crossfeeder headphones rule.

  Thank you for the tip 71 dB.  No I did not use a cross feeder with headphones.  I had a pair of Bose headphones  which I got tired of using and never upgraded once I bought my first bookshelf stereo speakers many years ago.

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 07, 2013, 04:27:59 PM
John I found a pic of you listening on your new speakers:

(http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/f/f0/Maxell-blown-away.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on October 07, 2013, 04:30:31 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 07, 2013, 04:27:59 PM
John I found a pic of you listening on your new speakers:

(http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/f/f0/Maxell-blown-away.jpg)

8)

Thanks, it's just right, except of course you can see I was wearing a wig when that photo was taken (only 12 hours ago).   :blank:
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on October 30, 2013, 04:23:55 AM
My recent upgrades have been ...

The X150.5 arrived just yesterday -- really great amp.  The clarity, separation, and palpability of instruments & voices in the soundstage is truly outstanding.

(http://clients.teksavvy.com/~wdbailey/StereoDiagram_current.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on October 30, 2013, 06:06:22 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on October 30, 2013, 04:23:55 AM
My recent upgrades have been ...


  • Schiit Bifrost Uber DAC
    Audio Research LS9 (solid state) preamplifier
    Pass Labs X150.5 amplfier
The X150.5 arrived just yesterday -- really great amp.  The clarity, separation, and palpability of instruments & voices in the soundstage is truly outstanding.
(http://clients.teksavvy.com/~wdbailey/StereoDiagram_current.jpg)

I notice you have a 'pre-amp' and mention your 'DAC'.  As I'm learning about these things, I am interested to know about the DAC - it is all very well having great speakers and a good amp, but now since you've quoted your DAC, it seems necessary for me to find a unit with a good DAC.  I am playing through an HD DVD player hooked onto the Marantz PM6010 amp, but your post has made me realize that the quality of sound (and it really is quality!) can be even further improved by the addition of a DAC unit, which is especially true because much of my collection is (again) in digital format.  I have always wondered what the benefits of a DAC would be, and you have completely answered that for me...  Thanks Fëanor, a good DAC is my next target.
The clarity, separation, and palpability of instruments & voices in the soundstage is truly outstanding.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on October 30, 2013, 06:11:53 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on October 30, 2013, 04:23:55 AM

The X150.5 arrived just yesterday -- really great amp.  The clarity, separation, and palpability of instruments & voices in the soundstage is truly outstanding.


Have you heard any of the XA series? I have heard the X300 (.5? can't remember) a few years ago and compared against two XA60's in mono mode... The XAs had all that you said in a much more pronounced way than the X.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on October 31, 2013, 05:10:03 AM
Quote from: petrarch on October 30, 2013, 06:11:53 PM
Have you heard any of the XA series? I have heard the X300 (.5? can't remember) a few years ago and compared against two XA60's in mono mode... The XAs had all that you said in a much more pronounced way than the X.

No, I haven't heard the XA.5's, (nor had I heard the X150.5 before mine arrived).

Your observations sound about right.  Here's what an acquaintance said about the XA30.5 vs. X150.5:

- mids and treble a bit more detailed, more overtones in high frequencies
- mids more prominent
- bass is more fleshed out, rounder, but less "clean" and controlled than X150.5
- dynamic attack is a bit attenuated in comparison
- because of difference in mids prominence, soundstage seems a tiny bit more forward of speakers.

I chose the X150.A because (a) I could get a used one a bit cheaper, and (b) its lower power consumption and heat.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on October 31, 2013, 05:25:48 AM
Quote from: Scots John on October 30, 2013, 06:06:22 PM
I notice you have a 'pre-amp' and mention your 'DAC'.  As I'm learning about these things, I am interested to know about the DAC - it is all very well having great speakers and a good amp, but now since you've quoted your DAC, it seems necessary for me to find a unit with a good DAC.  I am playing through an HD DVD player hooked onto the Marantz PM6010 amp, but your post has made me realize that the quality of sound (and it really is quality!) can be even further improved by the addition of a DAC unit, which is especially true because much of my collection is (again) in digital format.  I have always wondered what the benefits of a DAC would be, and you have completely answered that for me...  Thanks Fëanor, a good DAC is my next target.
The clarity, separation, and palpability of instruments & voices in the soundstage is truly outstanding.

Well the DAC is pretty much necessary in my case because I listen almost exclusively to computer files.

Of course, your DVD player has it's built-in DAC but I'd venture to say that external DACs are available which, fed from you DVD player via S/PDIF or your computer via S/PDIF or USB, can significantly improve the sound you'll get.  Based on my personal experience I can recommend the Schitt Audio Bifrost with USB and with or without the Uber analog upgrade.  The Bifrost is moderately priced and offers huge value for the money ... see LINK (http://schiit.com/products/bifrost).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on October 31, 2013, 05:27:00 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on October 31, 2013, 05:10:03 AM
No, I haven't heard the XA.5's, (nor had I heard the X150.5 before mine arrived).

Your observations sound about right.  Here's what an acquaintance said about the XA30.5 vs. X150.5:

- mids and treble a bit more detailed, more overtones in high frequencies
- mids more prominent
- bass is more fleshed out, rounder, but less "clean" and controlled than X150.5
- dynamic attack is a bit attenuated in comparison
- because of difference in mids prominence, soundstage seems a tiny bit more forward of speakers.

I chose the X150.A because (a) I could get a used one a bit cheaper, and (b) its lower power consumption and heat.

Indeed, I can see price and power consumption and heat being factors; the XAs are all class A throughout the power range (if I recall correctly), which translates to high values in each of those categories. But the sound, ah the sound...

I have found my original informal review of the audition I mentioned (at the time I was shopping for a replacement to my Vantages and was already zeroing in on Analysis Audio): http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?5083-Listened-to-Analysis-Audio-Omega (http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?5083-Listened-to-Analysis-Audio-Omega)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 04, 2014, 07:52:57 PM
Would be cool....

(https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/994097_630999103612745_1730400441_n.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 05, 2014, 08:15:30 AM
Quote from: Bogey on January 04, 2014, 07:52:57 PM
Would be cool....

(https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/994097_630999103612745_1730400441_n.jpg) 

Hey Bill - assume that you're talking about the girl?  ;D  Reminds me of George Jones' Corvette Song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh5jfvNOwK0) - Dave :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 08, 2014, 05:22:58 AM
Quote from: petrarch on October 31, 2013, 05:27:00 AM
Indeed, I can see price and power consumption and heat being factors [Pass Labs X150.5 vs. XA30.5]; the XAs are all class A throughout the power range (if I recall correctly), which translates to high values in each of those categories. But the sound, ah the sound...

I have found my original informal review of the audition I mentioned (at the time I was shopping for a replacement to my Vantages and was already zeroing in on Analysis Audio): http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?5083-Listened-to-Analysis-Audio-Omega (http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?5083-Listened-to-Analysis-Audio-Omega)

There are two polar preferences in the audiophile domain: (A) for the warmer, "harmonically rich", full-bodied, "organic", vs. (B) for the brighter, tighter, more resolved, more dynamic.  Both sides insist that their particular preference is "more accurate", if not necessarily to the recording, then to their recollection of "live performance".  Of course, there are audiophiles in the middle who like a balance of these qualities.

Personally I'm a bit inclined to the latter school.  I like lots transparency and air and to a some small degree I'am willing to trade if for sweetness and smoothness.  Unfortunately I have a pretty limited budget for hi-fi equipment; I'm retired and very dime I spend on hi-fi contributes to potential hunger a few year down the road.  The Pass Labs X150.5 is by a considerable margin the best amplifier I've owned.  It's an amp the minimizes the trade-offs between the (A) and (B) schools, but favors the (B) school in transparency and dynamics.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on January 28, 2014, 04:16:53 AM
(http://www.ljudmakarn.se/artimg/1/8/3/381_m.jpg)

I bought a Hegel H200 2 x 200 W integrated amp for my nr 2 system (in the living room) to substitute some older gear (Nakamichi power and a basic C-J preamp) that was getting very long in the tooth (the C-J in desperate need of tube replacements and the Naka with drying out condensers) and am very pleased with the results. I play CDs/SACDs from a Sony S9000 ES player

(http://www.soundandvision.com/images/archivesart/201sony.2.jpg)

to Vienna Beethoven speakers:

(http://image.ceneo.pl/data/products/5783143/i-vienna-acoustics-beethoven-baby-grand.jpg)

The Sony also delivers DVD signals to an 60 inch Samsung smart TV which I just now connected up to the sound system. The TV delivers sound via a Electrocompaniet DAC to the Hegel. I also have a cheap Philips Blue Ray.

A definitive upgrade to the TV sound and now also very pleasant music listening in the living room. No need to play all those discs alone in my HiFi cave in the cellar any more.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on February 16, 2014, 09:25:08 AM
I started doing some tube rolling with my Woo Audio WA6-SE, my first foray into such activity.  First up, I swapped the rectifier tube, going from the stock 5AR4 to a fancy, current production 274B, and sure enough, everything seemed to improve a bit – tighter bass was the biggest change.  Was it worth the steep price using the standard 6DE7 driver tubes?  Maybe.  I also opted for an expensive pair of NOS 6EM7 driver tubes, complete with some sweet 8 to 9 pin adapters that I can use with other tubes, and I have to say that this tube was a big old miss, at least with Beyer T1s.  The upper midrange is way too hot, and while that presents an illusion of greater detail, it also causes severe listening fatigue very quickly.  The tubes might be a better fit for Senns. 

Not content to leave things there, and also wanting a backup pair of driver tubes, I hit a couple tube shops online, and I found a bonanza of driver tubes for $6-$8 each, and even some rectifiers for as low as $20.  I went for some different types of driver tubes as well, including the 6DR7, which offers more bass than the 6DE7, but it also has too much gain, reducing how finely I can adjust volume.  (They should work better with less sensitive cans.)  But the 6FD7, well, that's just about the perfect tube for my tastes and gear, especially when paired with the 274B.  It offers all the detail of the 6DE7, but sounds more relaxed, though not necessarily warmer.  The tube does generate some very low level hum – far less than analog hiss or even random quiet noises that I can hear when using my open headphones, but it's there.  I'll probably try another make of tubes to see if that addresses the issue (my current pair is Zenith; I want some RCA), but even if it does not, I can never hear the hum when music is playing, or even when there is audience noise in live recordings, so I suppose I can suffer. 

Since the driver tubes I can use were all originally used in televisions, there are tons of made in the USA NOS tubes available for peanuts.  Yes, changing the tubes is basically the equivalent of twiddling with tone control knobs, but hey, it's fun, and it colors the sound differently with each combination, so I can twiddle whenever I get bored.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on February 16, 2014, 09:29:59 AM
I'm thinking of magnepan mmg speakers. Anyone have an opinion? I have a Technics amp, 600w, which should be enough, but I read they are hard to drive.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on February 16, 2014, 09:49:44 AM
I hear they're great for most of the spectrum but weak in low bass. You might want to pair them with a subwoofer. They also require a big room because they have to be freestanding in the open, not up against the wall.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on February 16, 2014, 12:31:05 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 16, 2014, 09:29:59 AM
I'm thinking of magnepan mmg speakers. Anyone have an opinion? I have a Technics amp, 600w, which should be enough, but I read they are hard to drive.

Quote from: bigshot on February 16, 2014, 09:49:44 AM
I hear they're great for most of the spectrum but weak in low bass. You might want to pair them with a subwoofer. They also require a big room because they have to be freestanding in the open, not up against the wall.

I had a pair of the SMGa speakers that precede the MMG, and my favorite thing about them was the way they looked. I had them hooked up to a 65 wpc Kyocera receiver, which is what was recommended by the audio dealer. I didn't know from audiophilia then. I thought they sounded fine, but I found myself getting up to adjust their positioning way too often. They're light, though, so it's not work so much as a small annoyance. Oh, and what bigshot says about needing room is true. You don't want them near your walls. Also, I'm not a great fan of bass, so if it was missing, I wouldn't've been bothered by it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on February 16, 2014, 02:07:16 PM
Thanks for the MMG feedback. Space is a problem for sure. I might need to keep looking.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on February 17, 2014, 03:54:52 AM
Quote from: Ken B on February 16, 2014, 02:07:16 PM
Thanks for the MMG feedback. Space is a problem for sure. I might need to keep looking.

To join the chorus, I too had Magneplanar MMG which I used for several years; currently I used Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's.  They are, with a few qualifications, excellent speakers and outstanding value for the money.  Some relevant points about the MMG's ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jut1972 on February 17, 2014, 09:12:22 AM
Erato - that sounds a gorgeous system...

Mine is much lowlier... it's an Arcam A85 amp with a Arcam CD72 and a Squeezebox Touch providing the sources.  Monitor Audio RX6 are my main speakers.
I've a Denon AVR2311 amp for surround sound duties going into more monitor audios and a REL sub.  PS3 does the blu-ray duties.

Headphones for home use are Sennheiser 650s, with some Goldring noise cancellers driven with a FIIO E18 Headphone Amp / DAC for mobile listening from a Galaxy Note 2

Also got another squeezebox touch, Duet and a squeezebox radio floating around...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on February 17, 2014, 11:36:12 AM
Does anyone have any of the speakers in B&W/Bowers & Wilkins' CM line?

I want a new pair of small speakers to go on either side of my bed, and the CM1 looks just right.

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speakers/Home_Audio/CM_Series/Products.html(http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Images/Product/Default/large/CM1_Gloss-Black_OFF.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Octave on February 21, 2014, 12:14:40 AM
I am on the hunt for a good portable speaker/speakers for use mainly at work.  I would definitely prefer something under $100, and under ~$50 if the sound is remarkably good for the price.
Bluetooth and/or an Ipod dock might be nice, but they are not important.  A 3.5mm audio-in is important (perhaps I am the last Discman user on earth).  Effective stereo separation (instead of mandatory mono) is probably essential.  A single unit (instead of two separate speakers connected by a cable) would definitely be more convenient.

This year-old post by NJ Joe might be along the lines of what I'm looking for, though something even more portable would be attractive, as long as the sound is pretty good for the size and price.  I wouldn't usually need to tote the thing in a book-bag or bike basket. 
Quote from: NJ Joe on February 10, 2013, 05:04:29 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91WRK4WU1RL._SL1500_.jpg)

Picked this up today to put on the floor behind my desk at work.  Logitech S715i.  Portable, remote included, and excellent sound for the money.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Brian on February 21, 2014, 04:51:59 AM
Quote from: Jay F on February 17, 2014, 11:36:12 AM
Does anyone have any of the speakers in B&W/Bowers & Wilkins' CM line?

I want a new pair of small speakers to go on either side of my bed, and the CM1 looks just right.

If it's going on either side of the bed, an alarm clock feature is necessary. Program a portable hard drive to play "Also Sprach Zarathustra" at 90% volume every morning at 6:30 a.m.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on February 22, 2014, 11:07:02 AM
Quote from: Ken B on February 16, 2014, 02:07:16 PM
Thanks for the MMG feedback. Space is a problem for sure. I might need to keep looking.

Planar speakers also bring to the fore the importance of the room and its acoustics. Construction materials, size, furnishings all become significant. But with some care, patience and dedication, planar speakers can make the listening experience truly outstanding.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 22, 2014, 02:46:28 PM
Since I just use 2.1 I can see the benefits of using a stereo amp instead of a receiver... except my receiver has multiple hdmi inputs which is what I really need.  Do any amps have hdmi inputs?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 22, 2014, 03:09:26 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 22, 2014, 02:46:28 PM
Do any amps have hdmi inputs?

The NAD C 390DD Direct Digital Powered DAC Amplifier has an HDMI option. 

http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-mdc-modules/DD-HDM-1-HDMI-Module

Definitely not a typical amplifier.

...

I just ordered this pretty thing to use with my Squeezebox Touch:

(http://images.computeraudiophile.com/graphics/2012/1025/vegafront.jpg)

Can act as a digital preamp, and can do up to DSD128, though I don't know if that will ever be more than a fad.



 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on February 22, 2014, 05:24:39 PM
Techie question. My amp (technics sa ax6) is rated to power two sets of speakers at 6 to 8 amps. So that's parallel, and if I had two sets at 6 that would be like driving one at 3 (give or take). Is that right?
Still thinking of the 4 ohm magnepans.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on February 23, 2014, 04:07:09 AM
Quote from: Ken B on February 22, 2014, 05:24:39 PM
Techie question. My amp (technics sa ax6) is rated to power two sets of speakers at 6 to 8 amps. So that's parallel, and if I had two sets at 6 that would be like driving one at 3 (give or take). Is that right?
Still thinking of the 4 ohm magnepans.

Yes, that is, it is correct that two speakers, each rated at X ohms, when connected in parallel will look like X/2 ohms to your amplifier.

So if your Technics is indeed rated for two pairs of 6 ohm speakers it will handle 4 ohm Magneplanars with no problem -- BUT I'm suspicious that a 6 ohm rating implies that that is for a single pair of speakers, NOT two pairs -- check your manual carefully.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on February 23, 2014, 06:23:55 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on February 23, 2014, 04:07:09 AM
Yes, that is, it is correct that two speakers, each rated at X ohms, when connected in parallel will look like X/2 ohms to your amplifier.

So if your Technics is indeed rated for two pairs of 6 ohm speakers it will handle 4 ohm Magneplanars with no problem -- BUT I'm suspicious that a 6 ohm rating implies that that is for a single pair of speakers, NOT two pairs -- check your manual carefully.
I will, thanks. I found it online.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on February 23, 2014, 08:58:33 AM
I've made a few upgrades recently. First, I sold my Martin Logan Theos and bought a pair of DALI Epicon 2s--wow...every bit as detailed and transparent, but more musical:

(http://www.i-fidelity.net/uploads/media/Dali_Epicon_2_Aufmacher_01.jpg)

I have a DALI Epicon Vokal on order to replace my Martin Logan Motif center speaker:

(http://images.kangoo.pl/82444020/3437/large/dali_epicon_vokal_kolumna_glosnikowa_centralna.jpg)

And an SVS SB 13 Ultra subwoofer on order to replace my Martin Logan Abyss:

(http://www.soundandvision.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/213svs.promo_.jpg?itok=r1-kEioA)

I'll report back once they arrive.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on February 23, 2014, 09:15:25 AM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on February 23, 2014, 08:58:33 AM
I've made a few upgrades recently. First, I sold my Martin Logan Theos and bought a pair of DALI Epicon 2s--wow...every bit as detailed and transparent,
Glad you like the Dali's. I have a set of the Dali Euphonia MS 5's in my main music room and love them(the picture is not my system though):

(http://www.avitel-bg.com/xprod/277/euphonia_ms5_livingroom.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on February 23, 2014, 09:52:27 AM
Thanks. They are pricey, but life is too short for poor sound!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 23, 2014, 11:04:00 AM
When I was hunting for new speakers several years ago, Dalis were definitely the best looking ones that I auditioned.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on February 23, 2014, 12:20:12 PM
Quote from: Daverz on February 23, 2014, 11:04:00 AM
When I was hunting for new speakers several years ago, Dalis were definitely the best looking ones that I auditioned.
The Epicon is their new reference series, and they sound as good as they look!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on February 23, 2014, 12:29:07 PM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on February 23, 2014, 09:52:27 AM
Thanks. They are pricey, but life is too short for poor sound!
What neighbourhood of pricey?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on February 23, 2014, 01:21:10 PM
A quich google shows a retail price in the UK of £ 4300 including stands. In Norway they are the equivalent of $ 6000.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on February 23, 2014, 01:26:41 PM
Quote from: The new erato on February 23, 2014, 01:21:10 PM
A quich google shows a retail price in the UK of £ 4300 including stands. In Norway they are the equivalent of $ 6000.
For that price they have to make me thinner and younger!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on February 23, 2014, 01:37:28 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 23, 2014, 01:26:41 PM
For that price they have to make me thinner and younger!

I am guessing the amount of enjoyment and depth of T&F's and Erato's listening experience far exceeds the amount of money spent.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on February 23, 2014, 01:40:29 PM
In the US the Epicon 2 sells for $8000 a pair, and the Vokal center is $6000. The bigger Epicon 6 sells for about $12,000 and the Epicon 8 for $19,000. One mainly gets a bit more bass and volume output with the larger models. Since my wife thought the Martin Logans were too visually overwhelming in the living room, I needed to find something that sounded as good (or better, in this case) but that was significantly smaller, so the Epicon 2 perfectly met the need. I also found the MLs to be rather fatiguing to listen to over an extended time. Electrostatics are great for "x-raying" the music, but they are not as musical as good dynamic speakers in my opinion. I also plan to replace my Stax headphones with some dynamic ones, probably Sennheiser HD 800 or Audyze LCD-X as soon as I sell the Stax.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on February 26, 2014, 07:05:43 PM
Things get better and better here.
Reported in October or thereabouts last year my joy in receiving Marantz Integrated Amp and two fabulous Rega Jura speakers.  Recently, I have got my small gnarly fingers also on a Marantz CD player to compliment the Amp, and Sony Dav DZ 260 DVD/SACD home entertainment system, complete with fabulous solid state Sony 5.1 speaker set which runs at a a crystal clear ear smashing 3 ohms.  My setup has become somewhat mighty compared to any audio hardware I've used in the past.  For example, I've never been able to play an SACD until now.

I could not be happier with the way music comes to me, I feel blessed that I can at last listen to it closer to it's proper output quality than ever.  My equipment is pretty old (the Marantz stuff and the Riga speakers date from 1999-ish, and the DVD/SACD from 2008-ish) but by all the Gods all of it does utter wonders!

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96826210/DSCF0307.JPG)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jut1972 on February 27, 2014, 10:14:17 PM
John you may be able to use the marantz amp to drive your left and right channeld.  if you can then you'll be hearing it through the rigas not the little sonys. .. 
that's how I have mine set up. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on March 10, 2014, 09:15:46 AM
Quote from: jut1972 on February 27, 2014, 10:14:17 PM
John you may be able to use the marantz amp to drive your left and right channeld.  if you can then you'll be hearing it through the rigas not the little sonys. .. 
that's how I have mine set up.

Yes, me too.  Since last post I have ditched the Sony setup completely in favor of the Regas.  Everything plays through the Regas.  Whilst the Sony setup was loud and gave fabulous dimension, the flourish and wonder of the freestanding Regas still wind hands down.  Plus, when at a concert, I do not hear music also coming from 'behind' me, so while the Sony dimensions and clarity was nothing short of outstanding, there was something irregular about it...I guess the 'Home Theater System' is just that, great for movies and gaming and all manner of media, but for our music...the Regas still win...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pat B on March 11, 2014, 06:40:30 PM
Finally bought a new needle (Grado Black1) for my phono cartridge (Grado Black). This is badly overdue. I won't say how long, but I haven't been spinning vinyl lately because of it.

A while ago I somehow came into possession of a ZF3 cartridge, which I looked up after I bought that needle. Turns out this is actually a nicer, though slightly older, cartridge. The needles are compatible but I think I'm going to put the Black1 in the Black, and maybe get a nicer stylus for the ZF3 later.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on March 11, 2014, 08:07:15 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 01, 2013, 07:26:52 PM
My audio stereo setup is pretty simple. Here are photos found on the Internet of my stereo equipment:

(http://www.plex.gr/upload/101136_ONKYO%20DX-7210.jpg)

Onkyo DX7210 CD player

(http://audio-heritage.jp/SONY-ESPRIT/player/cdp-xe500.jpg)

Sony XE500 CD Player

(http://www.minidisc.org/images/asahi_images/mds-je520.jpg)

Sony JE520 MD Player (Am I the only on this forum that uses MDs?)

(http://zvito.com/upload/normal/S/Sony_FM_Pro_Logic_AV_Stereo_Receiver_wRemote_STR-D711_-_125_-_Minoa_-_Electronics_-_13206_1.jpeg)

Sony D711 amplifier

(http://www.classicaudio.com/forsale/pio/RG9.jpg)

Pioneer Dynamic Range Processor RG-9

I don't know the model number of my Polk Audio speakers, but they're probably made in the late 80s, early 90s.

My setup hasn't changed at all. No need in changing something that you're already pleased with. Of course, I could invest in some higher end equipment, but I've always believed 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.'
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on March 11, 2014, 08:10:29 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 11, 2014, 08:07:15 PM
Sony JE520 MD Player (Am I the only on this forum that uses MDs?)

What are MDs?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on March 11, 2014, 08:17:08 PM
Quote from: Jay F on March 11, 2014, 08:10:29 PM
What are MDs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDisc
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on March 11, 2014, 09:47:46 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 11, 2014, 08:07:15 PM
My setup hasn't changed at all. No need in changing something that you're already pleased with. Of course, I could invest in some higher end equipment, but I've always believed 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.'

Dynamic Range Processor?  Interesting.  I did not know such things exist, John!  I know what it is by its name, but what has it got IN it to do the job it says?  Some kind of DAC or something?     :-\
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on March 12, 2014, 06:13:10 AM
Quote from: Scots John on March 11, 2014, 09:47:46 PM
Dynamic Range Processor?  Interesting.  I did not know such things exist, John!  I know what it is by its name, but what has it got IN it to do the job it says?  Some kind of DAC or something?     :-\

Hey Johnny Boy, all you need to know about Dynamic Range Processors is here:

http://electronicdesign.com/archive/dynamic-range-processor
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 12, 2014, 12:05:50 PM
Why do you want a dynamic range processor in your quiet living room?  The only use I see is for mobile listening.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: otare on April 20, 2014, 08:24:42 AM
I'm moving to a new house, with a bit smaller listening room than what I currently have, so my Quad 2905s will be sold. I just bought these beauties:

(http://www.hifiadvisor.com/modules/uploader/uploads/fields_uploads/pic/pic_guarneri_memento_01.jpg)

Sonus Faber Guarneri memento - possibly the most beautiful speakers ever produced. I hope they will play well with my Conrad-Johnson amps.

For headphones I prefer electrostatics, and am currently using STAX SR-009s which I cannot ever imagine changing for something else:

(http://www.wooaudio.com/images/fullsize/stax009-prod.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on June 02, 2014, 06:27:59 PM
(http://cms.the-ear.net/sites/default/files/varios-angelo.jpg)


So, any takers for the up to €15K Varios Angelo (the one on the right).  And yes, it is apparently a real product.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pat B on June 02, 2014, 08:39:47 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 02, 2014, 06:27:59 PM
(http://cms.the-ear.net/sites/default/files/varios-angelo.jpg)


So, any takers for the up to €15K Varios Angelo (the one on the right).  And yes, it is apparently a real product.

Looks sweet! Let me check with my wife.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mookalafalas on June 03, 2014, 06:47:44 AM
I have a 7.1 system.  The heart are Usher dancer mini X speakers (I think they are 45 pounds each, so not really so "mini", a 15" usher woofer, and then a Mirage Omnisat 5 speaker system for fill.

(http://www.penhometheatre.com.au/images/usherdancer-mini-x.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on July 02, 2014, 09:05:26 AM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on February 23, 2014, 08:58:33 AM
I've made a few upgrades recently. First, I sold my Martin Logan Theos and bought a pair of DALI Epicon 2s--wow...every bit as detailed and transparent, but more musical:

(http://www.i-fidelity.net/uploads/media/Dali_Epicon_2_Aufmacher_01.jpg)

I have a DALI Epicon Vokal on order to replace my Martin Logan Motif center speaker:

(http://images.kangoo.pl/82444020/3437/large/dali_epicon_vokal_kolumna_glosnikowa_centralna.jpg)

And an SVS SB 13 Ultra subwoofer on order to replace my Martin Logan Abyss:

(http://www.soundandvision.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/213svs.promo_.jpg?itok=r1-kEioA)


Here is the rest of my system:

Pre-amp: Marantz 8801
(http://shoplistenup.com/media/catalog/product/m/a/marantz_av8801-mm8807.jpg)
(http://www.son-video.com/images/dynamic/Amplificateurs_home_cinema/articles/Marantz/MARAV8801NR/Marantz-AV8801_D_900.jpg)

Amp: Parasound A 51
(http://sunnybankhifi.com.au/catalog/images/A51.jpg)

Sources: Opp105
(http://www.audiocominternational.com/latest-news/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/oppo-105-blu-ray-player.jpg)

Sony ES 5400 SACD player
(http://static.bootic.com/_pictures/1588922/sony-scd-xa5400es.jpg)

Technics SL1200
(http://www.vinylengine.com/images/model/technics_sl-1200_mk2_turntable.jpg)

Headphones: Sennheiser HD 800
(http://en-us.sennheiser.com/images/718/all/square/5563/square_louped_hd_800_01_sq_high_end_sennheiser.png)

Headphone amp: Woo Audio WA6
(http://www.wooaudio.com/images/fullsize/wa6_right_bk.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on July 02, 2014, 09:20:40 AM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on July 02, 2014, 09:05:26 AM
Headphone amp: Woo Audio WA6
(http://www.wooaudio.com/images/fullsize/wa6_right_bk.jpg)



You may want to consider upgrading the rectifier to the Sophia 274B.  I use a WA6-SE with Beyer T1s, and the swap made a noticeable improvement, or at least a change.  The sound is a tad less warm.  A friend of mine made the same change on the standard WA6 (he also uses T1s), and he reported similar improvements.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on July 02, 2014, 10:36:50 AM
I like the warmth! It seems to be a good match for the HD800s.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on July 02, 2014, 12:22:09 PM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on July 02, 2014, 09:05:26 AM
Here is the rest of my system:
...

Headphones: Sennheiser HD 800
(http://en-us.sennheiser.com/images/718/all/square/5563/square_louped_hd_800_01_sq_high_end_sennheiser.png)

Headphone amp: Woo Audio WA6
(http://www.wooaudio.com/images/fullsize/wa6_right_bk.jpg)

Nice system in general and nice headphone equipment.

I recently upgrade my headphone amplifier to Schiit Audio Asgard 2 and I'm very please.  The Asgard 2 features an all-discrete FET front end and a class A MOSFET power section.  The sound is detailed, dynamic, and sweet.  The thing runs a pretty hot, though, on account of class A operation.

(http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/imagecache_thumbnail_product_gallery_large/asgard2_02(1).jpg)

My current Sennheiser HD 555 are doing a good job, though it would be nice to upgrade at least to the HD 650; (the HD 800 are beyond my budget for the foreseeable).

(http://www.avx.hu/forum/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-19495-014957900%201320906130.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: otare on July 03, 2014, 12:49:07 AM
I use a Woo Audio 2 with my HD800.

(http://www.wooaudio.com/images/fullsize/wa2-9.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on July 03, 2014, 06:20:38 AM
I'm planning on acquiring the Objective Amp O2 + dac.  I think I've finally seen the light that iphone + portable amp is not smart.  Copying my library to my work PC and using a desktop amp + dac would be better.  I'm on break and I don't start up again until mid August so there is no rush (I listen through my speakers at home).  I've been playing this since May.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on August 22, 2014, 06:17:34 AM
At last, at long last!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvpT2m4IcAAf8rE.jpg:large)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on August 22, 2014, 07:52:13 AM
Tell us what it is!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on August 22, 2014, 08:59:55 AM
Quote from: The new erato on August 22, 2014, 07:52:13 AM
Tell us what it is!

Yamaha   A-S2100 Amp

Yamaha CD-S2100 SACD/CD player / DAC

Thiel SCS-4 T
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on August 22, 2014, 09:11:48 AM
Thanks. One doesn't see Thiel in Norway, though I know the name.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 22, 2014, 09:30:51 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 22, 2014, 08:59:55 AM
Yamaha   A-S2100 Amp

Yamaha CD-S2100 SACD/CD player / DAC

Thiel SCS-4 T

Excellent  8)  I know you've been after the Thiel speakers for quite some time.

Sarge
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on August 22, 2014, 09:48:02 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 22, 2014, 08:59:55 AM
Yamaha   A-S2100 Amp

Yamaha CD-S2100 SACD/CD player / DAC

Thiel SCS-4 T

Why the little speakers? And what are they? Does the amp allow two pair of speakers?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 22, 2014, 09:49:36 AM
Jens - congrats! Dave  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 22, 2014, 12:24:25 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 22, 2014, 06:17:34 AM
At last, at long last!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvpT2m4IcAAf8rE.jpg:large)

Looks like you don't have much damping in your room (looks like only couple of carpets).
The speakers seem to be very near the side walls and far away from each other.
How far is the listening spot?
Do they really sound good as they are?

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on August 22, 2014, 04:33:16 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 22, 2014, 12:24:25 PM
Looks like you don't have much damping in your room (looks like only couple of carpets).
The speakers seem to be very near the side walls and far away from each other.
How far is the listening spot?
Do they really sound good as they are?

also, have you experimented with UNstacking the electronics?

Many people think it's a bad idea to stack amps etc on top of each other.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on August 23, 2014, 05:07:04 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 22, 2014, 12:24:25 PM
Looks like you don't have much damping in your room (looks like only couple of carpets).
The speakers seem to be very near the side walls and far away from each other.
How far is the listening spot?
Do they really sound good as they are?

The listening spot is a good deal away, but very narrow. There's lots and lots of potential to tweak their position... I had only one day to set it up and I haven't properly moved into that room, either... the whole right wall is supposed to be shelves (still in the designing stage).

Narrowing is one thing I'll try... though I'm not sure how much they will like being in front of the windows. Then again... they are not bass-heavy in the least, so that potential problem ought not show up. Advice always welcome.

I'm not in the least worried about stacking the units... if anything, the 30kg of the amp further dampens any of the vibrations the 18kg doesn't have in the first place. But they'll get a different table; what they're on now isn't quite big enough for the feet to sit properly on the plate. And maybe I'll move them next to the listening spot, rather than putting them in the "temple position"... speaker cables are long enough, after all.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on August 23, 2014, 05:15:14 AM
Quote from: The new erato on August 22, 2014, 09:11:48 AM
Thanks. One doesn't see Thiel in Norway, though I know the name.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 22, 2014, 09:30:51 AM
Excellent  8)  I know you've been after the Thiel speakers for quite some time.
Sarge
Quote from: Jay F on August 22, 2014, 09:48:02 AM
Why the little speakers? And what are they? Does the amp allow two pair of speakers?
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 22, 2014, 09:49:36 AM
Jens - congrats! Dave  :)

Thanks! Yes... the Thiel SCS4 have fascinated relentlessly me ever since I've done extensive comparative hearing sessions at the local HiFi shop. My... that's probably some seven or six years ago, now. These are the T model and differ only in that they don't have a stand but a chassis... but otherwise identical. Not more internal volume, either.

Why them? Why so small? Well, I fell in love with how they play... the precision and the detail are amazing -- very, very neutral and 'fast' / responsive. Makes the ears read the score, while listening to good string quartet recordings. I don't need the oomph so badly... and if I have extra money and the inclination, I can get a superb subwoofer added to it and give the SS Organ Symphony the necessary kick, too. :-)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 23, 2014, 06:15:19 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 23, 2014, 05:07:04 AM
The listening spot is a good deal away, but very narrow. There's lots and lots of potential to tweak their position... I had only one day to set it up and I haven't properly moved into that room, either... the whole right wall is supposed to be shelves (still in the designing stage).

Narrowing is one thing I'll try... though I'm not sure how much they will like being in front of the windows. Then again... they are not bass-heavy in the least, so that potential problem ought not show up. Advice always welcome.

Even if you get shelves and stuff into the room the direct sound versus reverberation ratio seems problematic. I can't predict how your loudspeakers will sound like in the end (I don't even know how the room continues "behind"), but you should try taking the speakers closer to each other and bringing the listening spot closer. That way you'll increase the direct sound versus reverberation ratio. Also, try to keep the room "symmetrical" so that the left and right sides are acoustically as similar as possible. Try moving the speakers. Even a few inches will change the sound a bit. The angle of speakers is also important. I would try turning the speakers so that their axis cross each other in front of you. That produces a sharper sound image that can be used to compensate poor direct sound versus reverberation ratio.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on August 23, 2014, 07:05:16 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 23, 2014, 05:15:14 AM
Why them? Why so small?

I was asking about the two small speakers, on the table with the amp and CD player.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on August 23, 2014, 08:40:47 AM
Quote from: Jay F on August 23, 2014, 07:05:16 AM
I was asking about the two small speakers, on the table with the amp and CD player.

Oh, never mind those. They are Focal Wireless speakers. Not bad for what they are... glorified Computer Speakers. But a bit woolly.

But to answer your question about the amp: Yes, it can/could take two pairs of speakers or bi-wiring, for those who believe in it. (But Thiel doesn't believe in it, so that point is mute with my system.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: HIPster on August 23, 2014, 11:12:59 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 22, 2014, 06:17:34 AM
At last, at long last!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvpT2m4IcAAf8rE.jpg:large)

Very nice!   8)

Congrats Jens. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on November 25, 2014, 02:41:12 PM
So my amp, Technics SA-AX6, started buzzing the speakers. It has done this before but this time I could only get it down to a low hiss.
First I tried a well reviewed Yamaha surround system, but after a few days it had to go back.  Might be a great movie amp, but the frequency range just wasn't good enough. So I decided on just a stereo amp, and picked the Marantz pm6005. It arrived today. I am happy so far. It is just that little bit quicker than the Technics, and of course hiss-free.

[asin]B00EE18LQG[/asin]

Next up is new speakers, Paradigm Monitor 9.

(http://images3.static-bluray.com/products/12/18_1_large.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 25, 2014, 04:09:22 PM
Quote from: Ken B on November 25, 2014, 02:41:12 PM
It is just that little bit quicker than the Technics

Therefore an improvement for some Marteau and Gruppen. ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on November 25, 2014, 04:24:19 PM
Quote from: petrarch on November 25, 2014, 04:09:22 PM
Therefore an improvement for some Marteau and Gruppen. ;)

Might make all the difference!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Brian on December 06, 2014, 06:23:47 PM
Currently all I have is a TV, a laptop, a basic Blu-Ray player, and headphones.

So my question is:
What is the essential equipment somebody should start with? What do you need for a basic but pretty good sound system? You're going to have to explain this like I'm a kid, because I don't know what most of this stuff is (except "speakers" and "subwoofer").

Also I am in a 600 sq. ft. apartment with small rooms, and unlikely to afford bigger spaces in the years to come, so if a speaker requires 5 feet of empty space behind it to sound good, that's not useful.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on December 06, 2014, 06:34:12 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 06, 2014, 06:23:47 PM
Currently all I have is a TV, a laptop, a basic Blu-Ray player, and headphones.

So my question is:
What is the essential equipment somebody should start with? What do you need for a basic but pretty good sound system? You're going to have to explain this like I'm a kid, because I don't know what most of this stuff is (except "speakers" and "subwoofer").

Also I am in a 600 sq. ft. apartment with small rooms, and unlikely to afford bigger spaces in the years to come, so if a speaker requires 5 feet of empty space behind it to sound good, that's not useful.
This, which is only this weekend I think, seems a good deal. http://www.frys.com/product/4965501?site:sr=dealnews
They are floor standers but not big ones. I have not heard them but Polk is generally good for low to moderate priced stuff. You need a decent amp and  two precisely two speakers, and any decent 16 guage or thicker cables.
Your amp matters. Unless you plan on putting in a multi surround system, which you cannot in your space, get a good stereo amp not a home theatre amp, unless the price is great. Old amps can still be great, so think about eBay.
Does your bluray have RCA plugs (round, hole in the middle, red, white)? If not you need an amp with a DAC, Digital analog converter, which rules out older amps. Either that or get a new CD player with a good DAC.

Given a choice look for a type A or B or A/B amp, not type C or D. Technical stuff about power usage mostly, and you won't be driving moster sized speakers so you don't care.

As an example I found this on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rotel-RA-1062-High-Current-Stereo-Integrated-Power-Amplifier-/221622092278?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item3399b4c1f6 that's a good amp, and I found it in two minutes looking.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 06, 2014, 06:35:58 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 06, 2014, 06:23:47 PM
So my question is:
What is the essential equipment somebody should start with? What do you need for a basic but pretty good sound system? You're going to have to explain this like I'm a kid, because I don't know what most of this stuff is (except "speakers" and "subwoofer").


You need: source (your BD player should work), an integrated amp, and speakers.  Receivers can be good, but integrateds are better.  When I started off I had a well reviewed Denon receiver, and the Arcam integrated I replaced it with was way better.  Hopefully, you don't get hooked on gear, because it can be a spendy habit.  I know.

You needn't spend a fortune.  Entry level NAD electronics and B&W speakers, for instance, would work just fine.  Budget will have a huge impact, but I assume you are inquiring about cheaper stuff.  I also assume stereo is what you're after.  You may want to consider internet direct sellers.  You get much better bang for the buck for new gear, but make sure the company offers a home trial.  Used gear is an option, too, but be careful, especially at the lower end of the market.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 06, 2014, 08:00:00 PM
Brian, for speakers, I don't know what your budget is, or if you are currently residing in the US, but Philharmonic Audio offers a modified pair of Pioneer SP-FS52 towers (http://philharmonicaudio.com/aa.html) for $275.00.  The tweeter has been upgraded to a Vifa model, and the crossover has been redesigned.  I've not heard them, but I do own four other pairs of speakers where Dennis Murphy, the man behind Philharmonic Audio, designed the crossover.  He knows his stuff.  I do own the Pioneer BS-22 in unmodified form, and it is good; I would bet the upgraded pair for $165 is even better.


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on December 06, 2014, 08:16:58 PM
Quote from: Ken B on November 25, 2014, 02:41:12 PM
So my amp, Technics SA-AX6, started buzzing the speakers. It has done this before but this time I could only get it down to a low hiss.
First I tried a well reviewed Yamaha surround system, but after a few days it had to go back.  Might be a great movie amp, but the frequency range just wasn't good enough. So I decided on just a stereo amp, and picked the Marantz pm6005. It arrived today. I am happy so far. It is just that little bit quicker than the Technics, and of course hiss-free.

[asin]B00EE18LQG[/asin]


How is your Marantz amplifier experience turning out Ken?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on December 06, 2014, 08:27:11 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on December 06, 2014, 08:16:58 PM
How is your Marantz amplifier experience turning out Ken?
Very well. Unlike the Yamaha it's a step up from the Technics. Not a  large step, but it seems just a bit quicker in the highs. And with it's optical input and good DAC I can now play Spotify from the TV and get good sound.

I tried 3 ways to hook up my cd player,, which also has a good DAC, rca, optical, coax. The coax seems a shade better than optical, a shade better than RCA.

It also runs a lot cooler and is slimmer so vents better.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on December 06, 2014, 08:33:59 PM
Quote from: Ken B on December 06, 2014, 08:27:11 PM
Very well. Unlike the Yamaha it's a step up from the Technics. Not a  large step, but it seems just a bit quicker in the highs. And with it's optical input and good DAC I can now play Spotify from the TV and get good sound.

I tried 3 ways to hook up my cd player,, which also has a good DAC, rca, optical, coax. The coax seems a shade better than optical, a shade better than RCA.

It also runs a lot cooler and is slimmer so vents better.

Sounds wonderful. Hard to know what is under the hood in some of these receivers/amplifiers. Did you get a good deal?  I have an older Yamaha receiver that needs to graduate to (or rather be dropped down )  supporting my home TV, so I can blast classical music a bit louder. I.e. am have started to look around for a good amplifier.  0:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on December 06, 2014, 08:48:41 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on December 06, 2014, 08:33:59 PM
Sounds wonderful. Hard to know what is under the hood in some of these receivers/amplifiers. Did you get a good deal?  I have an older Yamaha receiver that needs to graduate to (or rather be dropped down )  supporting my home TV, so I can blast classical music a bit louder. I.e. am have started to look around for a good amplifier.  0:)

Yes. I went on eBay and got half list price plus shipping for a gently used one. List is 700, and they seem to be getting it; not many discounts, and some places sold out. Anyway, I am a happy camper.

It has fairly low power, 45 a channel, less than half the Technics, but it drives my Paradigm 9s perfectly without getting as far as one third volume. It can bi amp too.
No fancy DSP. Just straight pass thru or bass and treble knobs, and a loudness buton.
Two channel, no sub woofer.

The PM6004 is the early version, and for years was generally seen as the stereo amp to beat under 1k. The reviews say this is noticeably better, but the 6004 may turn up cheap.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on December 07, 2014, 08:05:45 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 23, 2014, 05:15:14 AM
Thanks! Yes... the Thiel SCS4 have fascinated relentlessly me ever since I've done extensive comparative hearing sessions at the local HiFi shop. My... that's probably some seven or six years ago, now. These are the T model and differ only in that they don't have a stand but a chassis... but otherwise identical. Not more internal volume, either.

Why them? Why so small? Well, I fell in love with how they play... the precision and the detail are amazing -- very, very neutral and 'fast' / responsive. Makes the ears read the score, while listening to good string quartet recordings. I don't need the oomph so badly... and if I have extra money and the inclination, I can get a superb subwoofer added to it and give the SS Organ Symphony the necessary kick, too. :-)

Moved twice. Intermittently in a room with absolutely nothing but blank walls and a hardwood floor and about 900ft2 large... and absolutely the acoustics of a swimming pool. All I could play (not that I minded) was (Bach) Organ Works. Sounded amazing. But now I'm in a small furnished room... and the speakers sound amazing. Tears are coming to my eyes, just on listening to the first recording (Goldbergs on Guitar that I randomly picked from a box of new arrivals) and oh-my!!!


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00KJ3OYQO.01.L.jpg)
J.S. Bach
Goldberg Variations on Guitar
Marco Salcito
Dynamic (2 CDs) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00KJ3OYQO/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00KJ3OYQO/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00KJ3OYQO/goodmusicguideuk-21)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on December 07, 2014, 10:26:19 AM
I have quite a low-fi system. Second hand Kef speakers (large, floor standing), second hand NAD amplifier. Sony CD player is playing up so need new one. Richer Sounds in UK do a Teac CD player for under £100 or a slightly more expensive Cambridge Audio one. Any advice on which one to get or a not-too-expensive alternative.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pat B on December 07, 2014, 10:45:30 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 06, 2014, 06:23:47 PM
Currently all I have is a TV, a laptop, a basic Blu-Ray player, and headphones.

So my question is:
What is the essential equipment somebody should start with? What do you need for a basic but pretty good sound system? You're going to have to explain this like I'm a kid, because I don't know what most of this stuff is (except "speakers" and "subwoofer").

Also I am in a 600 sq. ft. apartment with small rooms, and unlikely to afford bigger spaces in the years to come, so if a speaker requires 5 feet of empty space behind it to sound good, that's not useful.

IMO: speakers differ more than amps which differ more than sources (assuming your sources are digital; if you ever get into vinyl, a quality turntable is very important).

For small rooms, and since it sounds like you're on a budget, and most of your listening is classical, I would suggest putting your money into a amp (I agree with Todd about integrated amp if possible, as opposed to a receiver) and a pair of good, small speakers.

In general, I'd say avoid the mass-market stuff, though something like Todd's Pioneers might be an exception (I haven't heard them).

You can find good deals on previous-generation stuff. I bought a pair of Mission 731i's via ebay for about $100 and have been very happy with them. But I don't know what the risk is -- maybe I got lucky.

All IMO/FWIW. My days of A-B comparing were long ago.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 07, 2014, 10:47:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 07, 2014, 10:26:19 AMRicher Sounds in UK do a Teac CD player for under £100 or a slightly more expensive Cambridge Audio one.



I'd advise against Cambridge Audio.  I've experienced reliability issues with their gear.  Teac, Sony, Onkyo, Yamaha are all fine.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 07, 2014, 11:22:16 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 06, 2014, 06:23:47 PM
Currently all I have is a TV, a laptop, a basic Blu-Ray player, and headphones.

So my question is:
What is the essential equipment somebody should start with? What do you need for a basic but pretty good sound system? You're going to have to explain this like I'm a kid, because I don't know what most of this stuff is (except "speakers" and "subwoofer").

Also I am in a 600 sq. ft. apartment with small rooms, and unlikely to afford bigger spaces in the years to come, so if a speaker requires 5 feet of empty space behind it to sound good, that's not useful.

An integrated amp (basically an amp with volume control) and speakers would be all you need.

Speakers are either stand-mounted or floor-standing.  Floor-standing speakers don't really take up any more floor space and generally go lower in the bass.

Most speakers do need to be at least a couple feet from the wall behind them, and several feet from side walls.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on December 07, 2014, 11:35:36 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 07, 2014, 10:47:21 AM


I'd advise against Cambridge Audio.  I've experienced reliability issues with their gear.  Teac, Sony, Onkyo, Yamaha are all fine.

Very many thanks Todd. The Teac is significantly cheaper, so I will go for that.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on December 07, 2014, 12:30:13 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 07, 2014, 10:26:19 AM
I have quite a low-fi system. Second hand Kef speakers (large, floor standing), second hand NAD amplifier. Sony CD player is playing up so need new one. Richer Sounds in UK do a Teac CD player for under £100 or a slightly more expensive Cambridge Audio one. Any advice on which one to get or a not-too-expensive alternative.

Onkyo CD players are good. I like my c370. It's a changer which had build issues at first, resulting in bad reviews and a low price. But it's very fine indeed. It has a good DAC, which you need for your older amp.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on December 07, 2014, 12:41:14 PM
Quote from: Ken B on December 07, 2014, 12:30:13 PM
Onkyo CD players are good. I like my c370. It's a changer which had build issues at first, resulting in bad reviews and a low price. But it's very fine indeed. It has a good DAC, which you need for your older amp.

Hmm, are you familiar with the Onkyo C-7030? Beyond the audio aspects I am hesitant to go for a single player (used to a 5 cd - especially with operas ::))...

[asin] B004UR487A[/asin]

Do most of you use carousels or do you prefer single disc players?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on December 07, 2014, 12:47:45 PM
Quote from: Todd on December 07, 2014, 10:47:21 AM


I'd advise against Cambridge Audio.  I've experienced reliability issues with their gear.  Teac, Sony, Onkyo, Yamaha are all fine.

I had a cheap Teac cassette deck, bought new during the 1980s, that died one hour after its warranty. I have a couple of Sony SACD players that are around ten years old. The SACD part dies before the rest; they're still good for playing CDs.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on December 07, 2014, 12:50:11 PM
Quote from: Jay F on December 07, 2014, 12:47:45 PM
I had a cheap Teac cassette deck, bought new during the 1980s, that died one hour after its warranty. I have a couple of Sony SACD players that are around ten years old. The SACD part dies before the rest; they're still good for playing CDs.

An hour! Talk about planned obsolescence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence)!!!!   >:(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 07, 2014, 01:08:10 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on December 07, 2014, 12:41:14 PMBeyond the audio aspects I am hesitant to go for a single player (used to a 5 cd - especially with operas ::))



But how many CDs can you listen to at once?  More mechanical parts means more things to break.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on December 07, 2014, 01:10:44 PM
Quote from: Todd on December 07, 2014, 01:08:10 PM


But how many CDs can you listen to at once?  More mechanical parts means more things to break.

What! You only listen to one at a time?!!!    But isn't it a bit frustrating to have to change discs in a multi-disc work (operas, longer symphonies etc)?  I guess one can view it as an intermission and get a glass of wine! You are right - the fewer moving parts the better.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on December 07, 2014, 01:14:52 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on December 07, 2014, 12:41:14 PM
Hmm, are you familiar with the Onkyo C-7030? Beyond the audio aspects I am hesitant to go for a single player (used to a 5 cd - especially with operas ::))...

[asin] B004UR487A[/asin]

Do most of you use carousels or do you prefer single disc players?

Oops, c390
[asin]B0000EZ1KK[/asin]

The reviews split into those who got units with buggy control logic, who give it one star,  and the rest of us. The rest of us give it great reviews.

I tried to live without a carousel when my Sony was stolen. I couldn't. The Onkyo was better than the Sony for sound, but not for formats or features.
Only downside for me: this sucker is big. Really big. Doesn't fit some cabinets big.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 07, 2014, 01:21:35 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on December 07, 2014, 01:10:44 PMBut isn't it a bit frustrating to have to change discs in a multi-disc work (operas, longer symphonies etc)?


Not really.  I need the exercise.  If I really was interested in maximum convenience, then I'd rip everything and listen using a music server and a catheter.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on December 07, 2014, 01:26:11 PM
Quote from: Todd on December 07, 2014, 01:21:35 PM

Not really.  I need the exercise.  If I really was interest in maximum convenience, then I'd rip everything and listen using a music server and a catheter.

In that case one should have one's amplifier in the basement and the cd player in the attic (no stairs - just rope ladders)!
I suspect that the future will include small implanted microchips connected to the auditory lobes so we have access to instant streaming at all times.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 07, 2014, 01:29:47 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on December 07, 2014, 01:26:11 PMI suspect that the future will include small implanted microchips connected to the auditory lobes so we have access to instant streaming at all times.



Apple branded, thank you!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on December 07, 2014, 01:30:23 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on December 07, 2014, 12:41:14 PMDo most of you use carousels or do you prefer single disc players?

I have had both, and I prefer the carousel. I like Mahler, so the "opera" advantage is obvious. However, the main reason I bought it is because it was cheap and it played SACDs. If a single-player had been the same price, I might have chosen it, under the "fewer mechanical parts" logic stated earlier.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_158SCDC595/Sony-SCD-CE595.html?tp=197

It turned out that the SACD part of the player dies (relatively) quickly on all Sony SACD players, so I've owned three of these machines. The two I still have play CDs perfectly, ten and eight years later (I gave one to a friend's niece to use as a CD player). But $450 over ten years isn't bad.

If I buy another CD player (I'm currently enamored of wireless music), I might choose a used Kyocera. Mine lasted for 10 years of obsessive playing, and it looked and sounded better than the Sony. Said sonic superiority may be a product of faulty memory, of course. My stereo was a much more important part of my life before computers than it has been since.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 07, 2014, 03:27:54 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on December 07, 2014, 12:41:14 PM
Do most of you use carousels or do you prefer single disc players?

Haven't used a carousel since the 90s. Too fragile, and good single disc players had better sound, but I've never had a player that didn't eventually have mechanical problems.

I now use dbPowerAmp to rip CDs to a Linux box running Logitech Media Server.  Playback is via a Squeezebox Touch that connects to the server over wireless network.  The Touch is connected to a DAC via USB.

Unfortunately Logitech no longer makes Squeezeboxes, though there are DIY ways to assemble your own player.  Which I'll probably have to do if my Touch gives up.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Brian on December 07, 2014, 06:42:04 PM
Thanks to all for the (public AND private) messages I've been getting so far - I need to sit down and do the research that you have paved the way for and will probably be on this thread several more times this month asking questions, picking brains, etc.

For now: a lot of my music is FLAC/MP3 on laptop or external HD. Will this add to the equipment necessary for a basic setup, getting music from computer to speakers?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on December 07, 2014, 06:51:51 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 07, 2014, 06:42:04 PM
Thanks to all for the (public AND private) messages I've been getting so far - I need to sit down and do the research that you have paved the way for and will probably be on this thread several more times this month asking questions, picking brains, etc.

For now: a lot of my music is FLAC/MP3 on laptop or external HD. Will this add to the equipment necessary for a basic setup, getting music from computer to speakers?


If you get a CD player with a good DAC and a digital IN, you might find that a considerable bonus as it will allow you to listen to your music via computers at a sonically appreciably better level without having to get another piece of equipment. It was one additional bonus (if not the deciding reason) for getting the CD/SACD player I have right now. Also makes the classic: CD Player, Amp, Speakers setup slightly more future-proof than it would otherwise be.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on December 07, 2014, 08:45:05 PM
Quote from: Jay F on December 07, 2014, 01:30:23 PM
I have had both, and I prefer the carousel. I like Mahler, so the "opera" advantage is obvious. However, the main reason I bought it is because it was cheap and it played SACDs. If a single-player had been the same price, I might have chosen it, under the "fewer mechanical parts" logic stated earlier.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_158SCDC595/Sony-SCD-CE595.html?tp=197

It turned out that the SACD part of the player dies (relatively) quickly on all Sony SACD players, so I've owned three of these machines. The two I still have play CDs perfectly, ten and eight years later (I gave one to a friend's niece to use as a CD player). But $450 over ten years isn't bad.


Considering I have one ten year old and one six year old Sony SACD players (different models) still playing SACD perfectly, that sounds strange.....
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on December 07, 2014, 08:50:27 PM
Quote from: The new erato on December 07, 2014, 08:45:05 PM
Considering I have one ten year old and one six year old Sony SACD players (different models) still playing SACD perfectly, that sounds strange.....

It sounds strange to me too. The sacd stuff is firmware or circuitry. Interpreting bits. Why would that wear out? Carousels or sliders sure, but circuitry?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on December 07, 2014, 09:30:45 PM
Quote from: The new erato on December 07, 2014, 08:45:05 PM
Considering I have one ten year old and one six year old Sony SACD players (different models) still playing SACD perfectly, that sounds strange.....

Quote from: Ken B on December 07, 2014, 08:50:27 PM
It sounds strange to me too. The sacd stuff is firmware or circuitry. Interpreting bits. Why would that wear out? Carousels or sliders sure, but circuitry?

I don't know why or how it happens, but two of them stopped playing SACD. I read on the Steve Hoffman forum that it was something that happened to SACD players by Sony.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on December 07, 2014, 10:46:22 PM
Quote from: Ken B on December 07, 2014, 12:30:13 PM
Onkyo CD players are good. I like my c370. It's a changer which had build issues at first, resulting in bad reviews and a low price. But it's very fine indeed. It has a good DAC, which you need for your older amp.

Thank you.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on December 07, 2014, 11:40:01 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 07, 2014, 10:46:22 PM
Thank you.  :)
You are sure you wouldn't rather buy an OK DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter), hook it up to your computer and play discs throught the computers drive? Seems to me in this day and age that would be more futureproof as a good DAC also will play other formats, streaming audio from the net, and, if needed, provide audio output from televison sets, Bluray players etc?

I'm fond of CD players myself, but I'm gradually realising that their time is past.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on December 08, 2014, 07:15:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 07, 2014, 10:46:22 PM
Thank you.  :)
Welcome. Note my correction though. I actually have the c390.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 08, 2014, 03:16:15 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 07, 2014, 06:42:04 PM
For now: a lot of my music is FLAC/MP3 on laptop or external HD. Will this add to the equipment necessary for a basic setup, getting music from computer to speakers?

You could get an integrated amp with a built-in USB DAC that can be hooked directly to the computer, but I think it's more flexlible to get a sepearate outboard DAC that feeds an integrated amp.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on December 09, 2014, 05:46:09 PM
I noticed a bit of weakness with my highs at low volume with my new speakers, so I decided to bi-amp. It seems to have made a difference, maybe because there is now just more power to the drivers.  Placebo effect? I don't think so, but then one never does with the placebo effect.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 09, 2014, 06:36:21 PM
Quote from: Todd on December 06, 2014, 06:35:58 PM
You needn't spend a fortune.  Entry level NAD electronics and B&W speakers, for instance, would work just fine. 

Exactly what I have, and I'm real happy with them (plus a Pro-Ject turntable).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on December 09, 2014, 06:38:52 PM
Quote from: Velimir on December 09, 2014, 06:36:21 PM
Exactly what I have, and I'm real happy with them (plus a Pro-Ject turntable).
Which B&W speakers, Velimir?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 09, 2014, 07:53:37 PM
Quote from: Ken B on December 09, 2014, 05:46:09 PM
I noticed a bit of weakness with my highs at low volume with my new speakers, so I decided to bi-amp. It seems to have made a difference, maybe because there is now just more power to the drivers.  Placebo effect? I don't think so, but then one never does with the placebo effect.

This is why receivers used to have a loudness control.

These are the Paradigm 9s?  How are you bi-amping?

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 09, 2014, 08:00:49 PM
Quote from: Jay F on December 09, 2014, 06:38:52 PM
Which B&W speakers, Velimir?

B&W 685:

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speakers/Home_Audio/600_Series/685.html
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on December 09, 2014, 08:26:30 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 09, 2014, 07:53:37 PM
This is why receivers used to have a loudness control.

These are the Paradigm 9s?  How are you bi-amping?
Yes, P9s.
A and B left to left, and A and B right to right.
The amp has a loudness button but it didn't quite give me what I wanted.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on December 22, 2014, 01:50:04 PM
Quote from: Ken B on December 06, 2014, 08:48:41 PM
Yes. I went on eBay and got half list price plus shipping for a gently used one. List is 700, and they seem to be getting it; not many discounts, and some places sold out. Anyway, I am a happy camper.

It has fairly low power, 45 a channel, less than half the Technics, but it drives my Paradigm 9s perfectly without getting as far as one third volume. It can bi amp too.
No fancy DSP. Just straight pass thru or bass and treble knobs, and a loudness buton.
Two channel, no sub woofer.

The PM6004 is the early version, and for years was generally seen as the stereo amp to beat under 1k. The reviews say this is noticeably better, but the 6004 may turn up cheap.

Wasn't the previous version Marantz PM5004 rather than 6004?   How do you think Marantz PM5004 compares to the PM 6005?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on December 22, 2014, 01:55:20 PM
Quote from: Ken B on November 25, 2014, 02:41:12 PM
So my amp, Technics SA-AX6, started buzzing the speakers. It has done this before but this time I could only get it down to a low hiss.
First I tried a well reviewed Yamaha surround system, but after a few days it had to go back.  Might be a great movie amp, but the frequency range just wasn't good enough. So I decided on just a stereo amp, and picked the Marantz pm6005. It arrived today. I am happy so far. It is just that little bit quicker than the Technics, and of course hiss-free.

[asin]B00EE18LQG[/asin]

Next up is new speakers, Paradigm Monitor 9.

(http://images3.static-bluray.com/products/12/18_1_large.jpg)

Ken,
Does your Marantz PM 6005 power the Paradigms well?  It seems like the amplifier is underpowered (2x45W) relative to the Paradigm 9s or does it matter? How are your Paradigms sounding with your new amplifier?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on December 22, 2014, 02:13:45 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on December 22, 2014, 01:55:20 PM
Ken,
Does your Marantz PM 6005 power the Paradigms well?  It seems like the amplifier is underpowered (2x45W) relative to the Paradigm 9s or does it matter? How are your Paradigms sounding with your new amplifier?

It works very well now that I have, depending on which definition you use, bi-amped or bi-wire. The softness in the highs I found at moderate to low volume is gone, no problems at all with volume. So everything sounds great. I don't crank the volume past 1/3 of the dial.

I connected A and B right to the right speaker, which the manual says works out to 60 amps per channel, as opposed to 45 uniwired.  So 2x60 now. Of course that means no second set of speakers but I wasn't planning on that anyway.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on January 07, 2015, 05:59:41 AM
Bi Amped 1998 Jura freestanding speakers to a venerable but very good solid state 1994 Kenwood Amp w/ pre amp.  Marantz CD Player CD6000OSE (KI Signature Edition). 

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/j8JiXHAavVeoSNZ2Kfdia4IQzcPn8nq6M37nkDl5Gcw=w345-h259-p-no)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 20, 2015, 05:51:15 PM
(http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/modi2uber_main-1000.jpg)



For Christmas, I bought myself the family a new, bigger TV.  The picture is better than on the old set, but the sound through the TV speakers is positively horrid, and the analog output relies on a Y adapter and whatever electronics the manufacturer threw in, so while better than the TV speakers, it left more than a bit to be desired.  But the TV has an optical digital out, so I used this opportunity to buy my first ever DAC.  I thus decided to move from shitty sound to Schiity sound, and bought the Schiit Modi 2 Uber.  I do like my Asgard, though I use it rarely, and the small form factor of the Modi 2, combined with its versatility, and the basically fun fact that it is built in the USA for only a hundred and fifty bucks, all made it an easy purchase to make.  Sound is definitely noticeably better than from the TV's analog outs.  Mids and voices are clearer and smoother and warmer.  High frequencies are much smoother - no hash now - and bass is much better controlled and cleaner.  Sitting on the sofa it doesn't seem like the bass output is much greater, but my wife complained of the increased rumble radiating through the floor from the sub when in another room.  I rate the Modi 2 a success. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 25, 2015, 04:52:45 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 20, 2015, 05:51:15 PM
For Christmas, I bought myself the family a new, bigger TV.  The picture is better than on the old set, but the sound through the TV speakers is positively horrid, and the analog output relies on a Y adapter and whatever electronics the manufacturer threw in, so while better than the TV speakers, it left more than a bit to be desired.  But the TV has an optical digital out, so I used this opportunity to buy my first ever DAC.  I thus decided to move from shitty sound to Schiity sound, and bought the Schiit Modi 2 Uber.  I do like my Asgard, though I use it rarely, and the small form factor of the Modi 2, combined with its versatility, and the basically fun fact that it is built in the USA for only a hundred and fifty bucks, all made it an easy purchase to make.  Sound is definitely noticeably better than from the TV's analog outs.  Mids and voices are clearer and smoother and warmer.  High frequencies are much smoother - no hash now - and bass is much better controlled and cleaner.  Sitting on the sofa it doesn't seem like the bass output is much greater, but my wife complained of the increased rumble radiating through the floor from the sub when in another room.  I rate the Modi 2 a success.

Good move, Todd.  No surprised that the Modi 2 is a big improvement over TV decoding.  BTW, the same sort of improvement would be got replacing computer analog outputs, (at least those based on the usual Realtek audio chips).

For more serious listening than TV, I recommend Schiit's Bifrost Uber.  I had the original Modi feeding my main stereo system for while but replaced with the Bifrost.  The Modi was very nice but the Bifrost Uber is a BIG step up in transparency and imaging.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on March 11, 2015, 08:44:29 AM
I decided to do some more tube rolling with my headphone amp, just for fun.  I changed out my modern build 274B rectifier for some 1950s era GE and Raytheon 5U4G tubes.  I started with the GE, and the sound is more tube-y.  That is, the lows and (especially) highs are noticeably rolled off, and the sound is softer.  It's like a good, old-fashioned tone control, attenuating at 1 KHz and probably 500 Hz or so.  I expect the same from the Raytheon.  The best part is that the tubes are pretty cheap, and much less expensive than boutique models.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: toledobass on March 13, 2015, 12:14:39 PM
Anyone have experience with the Marantz CD5004? I need a new CD player and am seeking feedback on this one.

Thanks!
A
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on March 13, 2015, 12:43:58 PM
Quote from: toledobass on March 13, 2015, 12:14:39 PM
Anyone have experience with the Marantz CD5004? I need a new CD player and am seeking feedback on this one.

Thanks!
A

  I own the Marantz CD6004 player, the next model up I believe and it is very good. It features an iPod connection ( the 5004 apprently doesn't) and is very reasonably priced. I have not had the need to replace it. Marantz CD players have very good DACs you won't be disappointed.

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 14, 2015, 02:09:44 AM
I added spiked outriggers to my Vandersteen Quatros

(http://soundocity.com/Galler6.jpg)

(pic of different speaker from http://soundocity.com )

The effect is surprising, like getting whole new speakers.

The Quatros have cones in the front and a single spike in back for tilting the speakers.  The cones are not sharp and aren't able to penetrate to the floor under my thick carpet, so the speakers tend to "float" on the carpet, which really muddied the sound.  The speakers were also difficult to level and not at the same height, which played havoc with the soundstage, and makes the optimum tilt difficult to get right.  The outriggers allow me to "ground" the speakers to the subfloor and level them, making them very stable, and eliminating the height difference.  I expected this to clean up the bass and even out the soundstage, but was surprised by how much it cleaned up the midrange. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on March 14, 2015, 04:14:56 AM
Quote from: Daverz on March 14, 2015, 02:09:44 AM
I added spiked outriggers to my Vandersteen Quatros

(http://soundocity.com/Galler6.jpg)

(pic of different speaker from http://soundocity.com )

The effect is surprising, like getting whole new speakers.

The Quatros have cones in the front and a single spike in back for tilting the speakers.  The cones are not sharp and aren't able to penetrate to the floor under my thick carpet, so the speakers tend to "float" on the carpet, which really muddied the sound.  The speakers were also difficult to level and not at the same height, which played havoc with the soundstage, and makes the optimum tilt difficult to get right.  The outriggers allow me to "ground" the speakers to the subfloor and level them, making them very stable, and eliminating the height difference.  I expected this to clean up the bass and even out the soundstage, but was surprised by how much it cleaned up the midrange.


Such a simple fix which yields such a big sonic difference! I have wooden floors and found that when I put a small marble slab under the spikes of my speakers I had a similiar resut to you. Isolation works; the same will apply to your electronic components.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 16, 2015, 01:46:56 PM
And one of the last pieces of my system, a really good listening chair:

(http://www.vitalityweb.com/backstore/pics/Stressless-Governor-Black-200.jpg)

I've been using an Ikea Poang chair and ottoman for years, but needed something that put my ears a little higher and decided to splurge on an Ekornes Stressless chair.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 16, 2015, 02:29:25 PM
Quote from: Daverz on March 16, 2015, 01:46:56 PM

I've been using an Ikea Poang chair and ottoman for years,

I got myself a Poang chair recently, precisely because I wanted a low-slung chair that was good for thinking, reading and headphoning. It fits the bill nicely.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 16, 2015, 02:45:36 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 16, 2015, 02:29:25 PM
I got myself a Poang chair recently, precisely because I wanted a low-slung chair that was good for thinking, reading and headphoning. It fits the bill nicely.

Yeah, they are great chairs, and about 1/20th the cost of the Ekornes.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on March 29, 2015, 05:45:11 PM
Hmm, my cd player just burned out and crashed after 15 years of hard work! Poor thing!  :'( :'(   :'( :'(

Needless to say I am now looking for a new one as I am already entering the phase of withdrawal. Help!   
First I looked at single disc players (Onkyo C-7030 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UR487A) as well as the more expensive Marantz CD6005 (http://www.amazon.com/Marantz-CD6005-Hi-Fi-Compact-Player/dp/B00EE18LNY)), but I think I will favor a multi-disc unit. What kind of gear (mid range - most bang for the buck) would you recommend as a replacement? However, you could talk me into a single disc player...

I was looking at the Onkyo DXC390  (http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-DXC390-Disc-CD-Player/dp/B0000EZ1KK), but it seems to have some potential issues according to the reviews. Any good multi-disc players out there in your experience? Or a good single disc player?
I am all ears (literally)....  The Marantz? Onkyo?  :-\

What do you guys think about the OPPO BDP-103 (http://www.amazon.com/OPPO-BDP-103-Universal-DVD-Audio-Blu-ray/dp/B009LRR5AQ)?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on March 30, 2015, 12:04:47 AM
The Yamaha CD-S300 (http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-CD-S300BL-Natural-Sound-Player/dp/B00916E6FE) seems interesting....
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on March 30, 2015, 05:54:40 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 29, 2015, 05:45:11 PM
Hmm, my cd player just burned out and crashed after 15 years of hard work! Poor thing!  :'( :'(   :'( :'(

Needless to say I am now looking for a new one as I am already entering the phase of withdrawal. Help!   
First I looked at single disc players (Onkyo C-7030 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UR487A) as well as the more expensive Marantz CD6005 (http://www.amazon.com/Marantz-CD6005-Hi-Fi-Compact-Player/dp/B00EE18LNY)), but I think I will favor a multi-disc unit. What kind of gear (mid range - most bang for the buck) would you recommend as a replacement? However, you could talk me into a single disc player...

I was looking at the Onkyo DXC390  (http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-DXC390-Disc-CD-Player/dp/B0000EZ1KK), but it seems to have some potential issues according to the reviews. Any good multi-disc players out there in your experience? Or a good single disc player?
I am all ears (literally)....  The Marantz? Onkyo?  :-\

What do you guys think about the OPPO BDP-103 (http://www.amazon.com/OPPO-BDP-103-Universal-DVD-Audio-Blu-ray/dp/B009LRR5AQ)?

I have an Onkyo multi, I think that's the number, and have been quite pleased with it. It is big though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on March 30, 2015, 07:27:05 AM
Quote from: Ken B on March 30, 2015, 05:54:40 AM
I have an Onkyo multi, I think that's the number, and have been quite pleased with it. It is big though.

It seems like only Onkyo and Yamaha are making multis nowadays...!  ???
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on March 30, 2015, 07:47:55 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 29, 2015, 05:45:11 PM
Hmm, my cd player just burned out and crashed after 15 years of hard work! Poor thing!  :'( :'(   :'( :'(

Needless to say I am now looking for a new one as I am already entering the phase of withdrawal. Help!   
First I looked at single disc players (Onkyo C-7030 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UR487A) as well as the more expensive Marantz CD6005 (http://www.amazon.com/Marantz-CD6005-Hi-Fi-Compact-Player/dp/B00EE18LNY)), but I think I will favor a multi-disc unit. What kind of gear (mid range - most bang for the buck) would you recommend as a replacement? However, you could talk me into a single disc player...

I was looking at the Onkyo DXC390  (http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-DXC390-Disc-CD-Player/dp/B0000EZ1KK), but it seems to have some potential issues according to the reviews. Any good multi-disc players out there in your experience? Or a good single disc player?
I am all ears (literally)....  The Marantz? Onkyo?  :-\

What do you guys think about the OPPO BDP-103 (http://www.amazon.com/OPPO-BDP-103-Universal-DVD-Audio-Blu-ray/dp/B009LRR5AQ)?

I bought my last silver disc player over a decade ago -- it gets very little use nowadays despite that it's also an SACD player.  I'll never buy another purely CD player;  I still buy CDs but immediately rip them to computer file and listen via computer.

I might consider a new SACD player though.  Top of my list would be ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on March 30, 2015, 08:04:20 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on March 30, 2015, 07:47:55 AM
I bought my last silver disc player over a decade ago -- it gets very little use nowadays despite that it's also an SACD player.  I'll never buy another purely CD player;  I still buy CDs but immediately rip them to computer file and listen via computer.

I might consider a new SACD player though.  Top of my list would be ...

  • Sony SCD-XA5400ES (http://store.sony.com/es-super-audio-cd-player-w-hdmi-output-zid27-SCDXA5400ES/cat-27-catid-EOL-Home-Theater-Speakers-Components);
I have one and it is very good (but I think it is discontinued), though for pure CD playback my old Wadia 302 sounds slightly better. If I ever need a new player though, I'll buy a top DAC and play through computer drives/streaming. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on March 30, 2015, 08:20:28 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 30, 2015, 07:27:05 AM
It seems like only Onkyo and Yamaha are making multis nowadays...!  ???
You don't want to live without your multi. I tried. You have a lot of boxes to get through; you need good tools!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on March 30, 2015, 08:25:41 AM
I cannot understand the need for multis. They have more parts, more mechanics that can go wrong and they also reputedly sound inferior. As well as restricting the available choice.  Anybody that yhinks changing discs a chore, should rip them and play them from a harddisc.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on March 30, 2015, 09:04:53 AM
I can only listen to one disc at a time, so a single disc player seems good enough to me.  Then there's the fewer things that can break aspect.

Oppo is good enough that Lexicon tried to pass off a $500 BD-83 as a $3500 Lexicon unit after changing nameplates a few years back, and MSB currently sells a $5K or so unit based on the BDP-103 transport and guts, though MSB at least markets it as such, and claims miraculous improvements in other areas (DAC, output stage, etc).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pat B on March 30, 2015, 09:10:38 AM
Quote from: The new erato on March 30, 2015, 08:25:41 AM
I cannot understand the need for multis. They have more parts, more mechanics that can go wrong and they also reputedly sound inferior. As well as restricting the available choice.  Anybody that yhinks changing discs a chore, should rip them and play them from a harddisc.

Regarding sound, I suspect that's a hold-over from the analog days -- and even then, changers tended to be generally cheap; I'm not sure they sounded any worse than a single-player with a comparable motor, platter, arm, and cartridge. Likewise I doubt a CD changer sounds any worse than a single-player with a comparable DAC.

With that said, I happily stick with single-disc CD players (currently Onkyo C-7030). I had a 5-disc Denon once but it had too many mechanical problems. The only time I even slightly miss it is when listening to multi-disc works or recitals (and even then, I don't miss it much).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on March 30, 2015, 03:36:01 PM
Could you guys please educate me about the importance of a DAC?  I'm a neophyte in terms of their importance.  Some people on the boards suggest to use a low level cd player (e.g. an Onkyo 7030) and connect it via a DAC to the amplifier/receiver.  Would such a setup greatly improve the sound or is it just a matter of convenience for connecting one's computer and other digital devices to one's stereo system?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on March 30, 2015, 03:39:42 PM
Quote from: Ken B on March 30, 2015, 08:20:28 AM
You don't want to live without your multi. I tried. You have a lot of boxes to get through; you need good tools!

True! True! But a high level single disc player seems to shimmer like a fancy BMW. I was spoiled with my previous multi. I guess it just is a matter of habit. Your multi Onkyo certainly has received mixed reviews on Amazon. It seems as if one either receives a functional item or a lemon. A very bipolar set of reviews!  ???
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on March 30, 2015, 03:51:35 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on March 30, 2015, 07:47:55 AM
I bought my last silver disc player over a decade ago -- it gets very little use nowadays despite that it's also an SACD player.  I'll never buy another purely CD player;  I still buy CDs but immediately rip them to computer file and listen via computer.



Marantz SA8005 (http://ca.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=HiFiComponents&SubCatId=0&ProductId=SA8005): least expensive and can serve as a DAC for other sources such as computer


The Marantz is very alluring! It is chunk of change though.....   Would the awe factor of such a unit make it a worthwhile investment?
The Marantz PM8005 and SA8005 seem like a great combination!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on March 30, 2015, 05:45:09 PM
Hmm, now I am considering a major overhaul of my system [it has been 15 years after all]. Any interesting combinations to recommend in the price range of about 2-3k for an amplifier,  a cdp as well as a pair of speakers?  :-\   I need your knowledge and experience!  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on March 30, 2015, 06:26:31 PM
Source:
Oppo BDP-103


Amp/Receiver:
Outlaw RR2150

Emotiva Fusion 8100

NAD C326 BEE

NAD C316 BEE

Marantz PM6005


Speakers (assumes USA):

Salk Sound SongTower

Salk Sound SongBird

Philharmonic Audio Slims
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on March 30, 2015, 06:51:22 PM
Quote from: Todd on March 30, 2015, 06:26:31 PM
Source:
Oppo BDP-103


Amp/Receiver:
Outlaw RR2150

Emotiva Fusion 8100

NAD C326 BEE

NAD C316 BEE

Marantz PM6005


Speakers (assumes USA):

Salk Sound SongTower

Salk Sound SongBird

Philharmonic Audio Slims

Thanks Todd!
Any specific reason behind the Oppo (blu-ray capacity?)?  If those speakers sound as beautiful as they look I will be in nirvana! Amazing!
Thanks for your suggestions. I was checking the specs of the Marantz PM6005, but I had not yet considered the NAD, Outlaw or the Emotiva.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ken B on March 30, 2015, 07:06:32 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 30, 2015, 03:39:42 PM
True! True! But a high level single disc player seems to shimmer like a fancy BMW. I was spoiled with my previous multi. I guess it just is a matter of habit. Your multi Onkyo certainly has received mixed reviews on Amazon. It seems as if one either receives a functional item or a lemon. A very bipolar set of reviews!  ???

Yes, early models had problems. That's a feature not a bug. The price is lower that way!

The Onkyo has a good DAC but my Marantz amp has a better one. So i hook the CD player to the amp with a digital cable. If you have a high end older no DAC amp you might want a CD player with a new DAC. Otherwise you will use the digital out.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on March 30, 2015, 07:11:48 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 30, 2015, 06:51:22 PMAny specific reason behind the Oppo (blu-ray capacity?)?  Also, is the price for the Salk speakers per pair or per speaker?



The Oppo plays CD, BD, DVD Audio, and high res audio discs.  Sound quality is far better than its price point implies.  I own both the BD-83 (bedroom system video, non-CD audio) and BDP-103 (home theater).  Picture quality is also superb, if it is used for video.

Salk prices are per pair.  Salk and Philharmonic have price-to-performance ratios that are off the charts.  The drive units used in the SongTower cost more than the units used in some speakers in the $5K-$8K/pair range.  The Hiquphon tweeter in the Salks has one of the best measured CSD plots of any tweeter on the market, regardless of price, and not surprisingly, the clarity of the speakers is most impressive.  (I own three pairs of Salks, including the SongTower.)  Dennis Murphy designs crossovers for Salk and he owns Philharmonic Audio, so the sound would be quite similar between the brands.  He is also an amateur orchestral musician, so he voices with an ear for classical music specifically.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on March 30, 2015, 07:51:30 PM
Quote from: Todd on March 30, 2015, 07:11:48 PM


The Oppo plays CD, BD, DVD Audio, and high res audio discs.  Sound quality is far better than its price point implies.  I own both the BD-83 (bedroom system video, non-CD audio) and BDP-103 (home theater).  Picture quality is also superb, if it is used for video.

Salk prices are per pair.  Salk and Philharmonic have price-to-performance ratios that are off the charts.  The drive units used in the SongTower cost more than the units used in some speakers in the $5K-$8K/pair range.  The Hiquphon tweeter in the Salks has one of the best measured CSD plots of any tweeter on the market, regardless of price, and not surprisingly, the clarity of the speakers is most impressive.  (I own three pairs of Salks, including the SongTower.)  Dennis Murphy designs crossovers for Salk and he owns Philharmonic Audio, so the sound would be quite similar between the brands.  He is also an amateur orchestral musician, so he voices with an ear for classical music specifically.

The Oppo certainly seems to be a hot item! Almost a futuristic compilation of functions/abilities!
Isn't the Oppo more geared towards home theater (visual) even though it plays cd/SACD?  Since (in my case) it would be completely devoted towards audio (not connected to a screen at all) wouldn't it be better to invest in a player geared towards just audio (e.g. Marantz SA8005)? I guess Oppo is a lot of bangs for the bucks. What do you think?

Btw I keep looking at those Salk speakers you recommended. They certainly come across well in the reviews as well as visually. Apparently pieces of art at the same time as they an audiophiles dream!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on March 30, 2015, 07:52:31 PM
Quote from: Ken B on March 30, 2015, 07:06:32 PM
Yes, early models had problems. That's a feature not a bug. The price is lower that way!

The Onkyo has a good DAC but my Marantz amp has a better one. So i hook the CD player to the amp with a digital cable. If you have a high end older no DAC amp you might want a CD player with a new DAC. Otherwise you will use the digital out.

I can see how the price can drop!  >:D

So you are bypassing the Onkyo's DAC?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on March 30, 2015, 07:57:03 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 30, 2015, 07:51:30 PMIsn't the Oppo more geared towards home theater (visual) even though it plays cd/SACD?



The Oppo is great for audio.  Since it handles high-res audio and SACD, you get more for the money.  For straight CD playback, better is available, but not really at or near the price. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on March 31, 2015, 12:20:53 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 30, 2015, 05:45:09 PM
Hmm, now I am considering a major overhaul of my system [it has been 15 years after all]. Any interesting combinations to recommend in the price range of about 2-3k for an amplifier,  a cdp as well as a pair of speakers?  :-\   I need your knowledge and experience!  :)
Quote...you might want a CD player with a new DAC...


My idea of an old fashioned stereo chain in a modern world would either look like this, or this:






version 1
Digital Source(s)...--->DAC+CD/SACD Player--->      Amplifier   --->Speakers

version 2
Digital Source(s)...--->DAC+Pre-Am+Headphone-Amp--->Active Speakers
--->Headphones


Digital sources in version one being a computer, a streamer, a network player... the like. Same, really with version 2, except there it might also include (multi-format) hardware players... but i.e. a less expensive CD player that can be tapped via digital out to take advantage of a fine dedicated DAC/Pre-Amp.

Of course it's possible to split up Pre-Amp and Headphone Amplifier or simply not bother with the latter, if one doesn't listen that way.

My choice of DAC/CD/SACD Player currently is the Yamaha  CD-S2100, esp. in combination with its Amp-brother A-S2100. A few Marantz-combos are very comparable in functionality.

My choice of speaker is a little specific and perhaps does not merit broad/general recommendation; Thiel SC-4T. (I'd have gotten the Thiel SC4 had it not been for a great price and happenstance and the dark cherry available in one but not the other... in any case a mute point, I think, because the SC-4T, identical except for having what is essentially an integrated stand (at too high a price, I find, if one were to pay list price) is discontinued; the SC4 continues strong.) http://www.thielaudio.com/

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on March 31, 2015, 12:49:55 AM
Anybody buying a dedicated CA/SACD player these days should make sure that it has a large and versatile selection of digital inputs (eg that its signal processing elements works independently from its mecanical disc player). That way the most important parts of it are useful even for other formats than CD and other sources than the disc tray.

Ideally I would want a WiFiconnection as well, though I don't this this is generally offered.

Personally I have bought my last CD player and will go the separate DAC route at the next crossroads even if I will continue to buy CDs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on March 31, 2015, 10:02:10 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 31, 2015, 12:20:53 AM
My idea of an old fashioned stereo chain in a modern world would either look like this, or this:






version 1
Digital Source(s)...--->DAC+CD/SACD Player--->      Amplifier   --->Speakers

version 2
Digital Source(s)...--->DAC+Pre-Am+Headphone-Amp--->Active Speakers
--->Headphones

Digital sources in version one being a computer, a streamer, a network player... the like. Same, really with version 2, except there it might also include (multi-format) hardware players... but i.e. a less expensive CD player that can be tapped via digital out to take advantage of a fine dedicated DAC/Pre-Amp.

Of course it's possible to split up Pre-Amp and Headphone Amplifier or simply not bother with the latter, if one doesn't listen that way.

In the end there is nothing that beats all-separates for versatility, especially if you ever expect to upgrade, i.e.

[Digital source => DAC] and/or [Turntable + cartridge => phono pre] and/or Tuner =>
Preamp=>
[power amp => speakers] and/or [Headphone amp => headphones]

OTOH money can be saved by combining.  So the long-time standard combo is [phono pre+preamp+amp+headphone amp] which we fondly call an 'integrated amp' or the [phono pre+tuner+preamp+power amp+headphone amp] which we call a 'receiver'.  I'd avoid combining components that are fast evolving such as a DAC with other components.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pat B on March 31, 2015, 10:11:42 AM
How fast are DACs really evolving in 2015?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on March 31, 2015, 10:25:36 AM
Quote from: Pat B on March 31, 2015, 10:11:42 AM
How fast are DACs really evolving in 2015?


From an engineering or marketing perspective?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pat B on March 31, 2015, 10:29:36 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 31, 2015, 10:25:36 AM
From an engineering or marketing perspective?

Exactly.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on April 01, 2015, 04:50:25 AM
Quote from: Pat B on March 31, 2015, 10:11:42 AM
How fast are DACs really evolving in 2015?

Pretty fast from a technical perspective, I'd say, as are peripheral technologies such as USB and S/PDIF decoders.  The latest devices will usually handle high resolution files, e.g. 24 bit/192 kHz, and some decode DSD, (SACD-style), as well as PCM encoded files;  this is significant with the greater availability of hi-rez downloads from many online sources.  Also, the latest DACs are virtual immune to "jitter" thanks to asynchronous USB inputs and/or reclocking the incoming bit streams.

Pretty fast from a marketing perspective too, not unexpectedly.  Needless to say not everybody considers all the advances to be improvements, but that's the nature of audiophiles.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pat B on April 01, 2015, 08:53:54 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on April 01, 2015, 04:50:25 AM
Needless to say not everybody considers all the advances to be improvements, but that's the nature of audiophiles.

Yeah, count me among the skeptics. As far as I'm concerned, the DAC problem was solved 25 years ago, and jitter has never been a problem.

ETA: though an outboard DAC might be a good investment when outputting from a PC or TV as those are likely to have poor (extremely cheap) analog sections.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on April 02, 2015, 04:29:26 AM
Quote from: Pat B on April 01, 2015, 08:53:54 AM
Yeah, count me among the skeptics. As far as I'm concerned, the DAC problem was solved 25 years ago, and jitter has never been a problem.

ETA: though an outboard DAC might be a good investment when outputting from a PC or TV as those are likely to have poor (extremely cheap) analog sections.

There are some nice older DACs.  A few pundits insist that the older "ladder" DACs are still the best sounding and there has always been a lot of dissention about oversampling.  Those older DACs won't handle 24 bits, but then again not everyone agrees that hi-rez is significantly better anyway.  In particular I'm skeptical the DSD encoding is really any better that PCM; I'm not rushing out to buy a new DAC just to have the DSD capability.

The de facto standard, Realtek DACs in computers are pretty poor compared to the excellent, standalone DACs available today.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on April 02, 2015, 04:39:57 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on April 02, 2015, 04:29:26 AM

The de facto standard, Realtek DACs in computers are pretty poor compared to the excellent, standalone DACs available today.

Oh, they're absolutely nasty!!! Fake reverb makes a total mess out of everything. Absolutely unlistenable, I find, after getting used to how it ought to sound. And entirely useless in the blind-listening Cello Suite thing. Every recording started sounding the same.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on April 02, 2015, 08:05:25 AM
I only have a few DSD downloads, but have yet to be impressed by the format.  It sounds a bit soft compared to the best PCM.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: HIPster on April 03, 2015, 12:15:01 PM
Quote from: toledobass on March 13, 2015, 12:14:39 PM
Anyone have experience with the Marantz CD5004? I need a new CD player and am seeking feedback on this one.

Thanks!
A

I am considering this as a secondary CD player and it might be one for you to look into Allan ~

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-161290-yamaha-cd-n500-network-enabled-cd-player.aspx?source=igodigital&

At its original $800 price, it looked attractive to me, but now, it seems even more so.  Any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on April 04, 2015, 03:52:40 AM
Quote from: HIPster on April 03, 2015, 12:15:01 PM
I am considering this as a secondary CD player and it might be one for you to look into Allan ~

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-161290-yamaha-cd-n500-network-enabled-cd-player.aspx?source=igodigital&

At its original $800 price, it looked attractive to me, but now, it seems even more so.  Any thoughts on this?

German Audio magazine "Audio" rated it in issue 11/12... (which I have, but at home, so not available for detailed quoting)
It was then listed at 420 Euros, which is considerably lower (certainly at today's exchange rate, though not by as much then) than $800,-
It was listed at the same nominal level as players like Marantz CD-5004 & 6002, NAD C515 BEE, Denon CDC-720 AE, Cambridge 350 C and ahead of Yamaha CD-S300 & CD-S700 and a few others. A little below that they stop listing items... (The list tops out at 140, the Yamaha received 90)
These numerical ratings are nearly meaningless, of course, especially where functionality is concerned.

The Yamaha CD-N301, nominal price 350,- and probably the de-facto successor to the CD-N500 (although a N501 might well be forthcoming), was reviewed in the most recent issue, alongside Onkyo C-N7050 (400,-E) and Arcam CDS27 (1000,-E). Point being that all of them have network functionality and a CD Drive and AirPlay and USB connectors, internet-radio capable et al.

But it has: No on-device playlist capability. It has no FF / Rewind. And most damning for classical music aficionados: It has no gapless playback. None of the three units have that, incidentally... which is where I might have stopped reading. Their sound-rating is, all caveats active, 95, 95 and 108. Not sure that helps at all... except for you to double-check that the model you are looking at HAS gapless playback.  EDIT: Oh, So the N500 does have gapless playback, it says right there on the site.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on April 21, 2015, 08:15:01 AM
  Dear all:

  I just upgraded my system.  I sold my Monitor Audio BX5 floorstanding speakers and bought the Monitor Audio Silver 8s:

  (http://cdn.stereophile.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/115monitor.promo_.jpg?itok=Hu-BtkBI)

  I also sold my Marantz PM6004 amp and bought the Rega Elex-R amp:

  (http://www.rega.co.uk/uploads/images/amps/elex-r/img-gallery-amps-elex-r-front.jpg)

  I have kept my Marantz 6004 CD player as it has an ipod  usb connection that I use every now and then.

  The above combination provides a smoother sound than the Bronze range and the Rega amp is quite lovely.

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on April 21, 2015, 08:55:45 AM
Some nice gear there.  I've owned two pairs of Monitor Audio speakers, and three Rega source components over the years.  They have always sounded superb.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on April 21, 2015, 10:30:21 AM
Quote from: Todd on April 21, 2015, 08:55:45 AM
Some nice gear there.  I've owned two pairs of Monitor Audio speakers, and three Rega source components over the years.  They have always sounded superb.

  Thank you Tod. Which Monitor Audios did you own?

  The Silver 8s are the new Silver Range upgraded from the previous Silver  RX range. What attracted me to these speakers is the mid range driver which provides even more clarity, a feature I tend to look for when listening to classical music. These speakers are not as "forward" (for lack of a better term) as the previous silver range or even the Bronze range. The Rega Elex R amp is as musical as its younger sibling the Rega Brio R but more muscular. The net result is a smooth and musical as opposed clinical sound. I am very happy with this upgrade.

  I just wish I had more money to spend as the Gold range has just been upgraded- I can only imagine how wonderful they must sound.

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on April 21, 2015, 10:33:48 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on April 21, 2015, 10:30:21 AMThank you Tod. Which Monitor Audios did you own?



700 PMCs in the late 90s and early aughts, and the Silver 6s for a few years in the late aughts/early this decade - my wife gave the green light for a pair for our bedroom stereo!  That is an opportunity one does not pass up.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on April 21, 2015, 10:40:35 AM
Quote from: Todd on April 21, 2015, 10:33:48 AM


700 PMCs in the late 90s and early aughts, and the Silver 6s for a few years in the late aughts/early this decade - my wife gave the green light for a pair for our bedroom stereo!  That is an opportunity one does not pass up.

  You are a lucky man  :)! Usually the fairer sex likes the small sleek horrible sounding speakers LOL!!

  PS: I presume you had the Silver RX6, a very popular and excellent speaker, one of their best sellers.  This is not to be confused with the current upgraded Silver 6s.

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on April 21, 2015, 10:52:46 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on April 21, 2015, 10:40:35 AMPS: I presume you had the Silver RX6, a very popular and excellent speaker, one of their best sellers.



It was the RS6 when I bought it, so at least two iterations ago.

The funny thing about that purchase is that my wife wanted new speakers to replace, of all things, some Sonus Faber Concertinos, which she described as "scratchy" sounding.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 21, 2015, 11:23:37 AM
Quote from: Todd on April 21, 2015, 10:33:48 AM
700 PMCs in the late 90s and early aughts, and the Silver 6s for a few years in the late aughts/early this decade - my wife gave the green light for a pair for our bedroom stereo!  That is an opportunity one does not pass up.

Ha! "The wifey: Master of the Living Room". :D Got blindsided myself years ago when the ex put the stops to my attempts to integrate a gorgeous pair of old B&W 805s into the living room. She felt the dome tweeter perched atop the speaker looked too much like a futuristic emergency siren. So out the door they went, sleek, elegant looks and all.

I'll never forget the reaction of the sales rep at the audio shop when I returned them. His opening mile-wide smile with the melodic, hopping "hello" died a fast death on his face the instant he noticed the speaker boxes I had in tow. Unfortunately his offer for a "home trial" didn't go as planned. Worked on me of course but he (and I) hadn't factored in the master of the living room.   


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on April 21, 2015, 11:39:42 AM


  Gentlemen,

  If it is any consolation my speaker system is placed in a decent sized, unimportant room that my significant other hardly ever frequents.  :) I wouldn't dare put these speakers in the bedroom much less the living room.

  PS: I have a pair of Bose 161 speakers in my bedroom. Sleek , delicate beautifully designed to my significant other's satisfaction...........and unimpressively sounding, to say the very least to my dissatisfaction  :-\

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on April 21, 2015, 12:03:20 PM
Regarding wives and wife friendlyness. My wife once bought me a pair of these as a present:

(http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/403713-acoustat_model_2.jpg)

This rig is not mine, but these speakers (the grey flat panel ones) are over 6 feet high. I think my model was sligthly narrower and slightly higher, I couldn't find a picture of exactly the same model. Acoustat made a large series of speakers built around various configurations of their electrostatic panels.

They retired a few years ago after 20 years in the service of fine music. For some years they stayed in our living room, after we moved they ended up in a dedicated listening room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 21, 2015, 12:24:09 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on April 21, 2015, 11:39:42 AM

  Gentlemen,

  If it is any consolation my speaker system is placed in a decent sized, unimportant room that my significant other hardly ever frequents.  :) I wouldn't dare put these speakers in the bedroom much less the living room.

:)

QuotePS: I have a pair of Bose 161 speakers in my bedroom. Sleek , delicate beautifully designed to my significant other's satisfaction...........and unimpressively sounding, to say the very least to my dissatisfaction  :-\

  marvin

What's a home without compromise? ;D


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 21, 2015, 12:26:44 PM
Quote from: The new erato on April 21, 2015, 12:03:20 PM
Regarding wives and wife friendlyness. My wife once bought me a pair of these as a present:

(http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/403713-acoustat_model_2.jpg)

This rig is not mine, but these speakers (the grey flat panel ones) are over 6 feet high. I think my model was sligthly narrower and slightly higher, I couldn't find a picture of exactly the same model. Acoustat made a large series of speakers built around various configurations of their electrostatic panels.

They retired a few years ago after 20 years in the service of fine music. For some years they stayed in our living room, after we moved they ended up in a dedicated listening room.

For such monsters those speakers are quite unassuming. But put a dome tweeter atop them and the ex-o-mine would've high-tailed it right out of the room... :)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on July 05, 2015, 11:15:36 AM
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11667253_10207228644138511_373117057617340211_n.jpg?oh=38e1fb3c1d3a3139dfbaf200056cd534&oe=562F9C21)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 26, 2015, 07:13:07 AM
(http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/Fulla-main-1920.jpg)


Santa Claus brought me the Schiit Fulla headphone amp/dac.  Roughly the size of a lighter, and meant for connection to computers or portable gear via USB, this little device is most delightful.  For a mere $90, it actually makes PC audio sound good.  (This assumes one has not plopped down for exotic soundcards, and so forth, which I most certainly have not.)  Sound is clearer, cleaner, fuller, weightier.  It can drive 250 Ohm headphones to unacceptably loud levels if needed.  No, it doesn't sound as good as a proper headphone amp fed a proper signal, but this is meant for work, where portability and inconspicuousness is preferred. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2015, 07:27:48 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 26, 2015, 07:13:07 AM
(http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/Fulla-main-1920.jpg)


Santa Claus brought me the Schiit Fulla headphone amp/dac.  Roughly the size of a lighter, and meant for connection to computers or portable gear via USB, this little device is most delightful.  For a mere $90, it actually makes PC audio sound good.  (This assumes one has not plopped down for exotic soundcards, and so forth, which I most certainly have not.)  Sound is clearer, cleaner, fuller, weightier.  It can drive 250 Ohm headphones to unacceptably loud levels if needed.  No, it doesn't sound as good as a proper headphone amp fed a proper signal, but this is meant for work, where portability and inconspicuousness is preferred.

That's cool.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on December 26, 2015, 11:54:45 AM
I just bought something similar in the Fiio Q1 for about $US80. I've attached this to my Sansa View, iPhone 6S and iPad Air with similar results to what Todd has described. It doesn't replace my Fiio E7/E9 combination on my home PC which sounds amazing.

The one issue with upgrading sound cards in PCs is that the sound still has to go through part of the MS Windows sound system with the inevitable degradation in SQ. Much better to use a DAC/amp and bypass it all entirely. It makes a huge difference.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on December 26, 2015, 04:53:54 PM
My best equipment acquisition in 2015 has been the Multibit Upgrade to my Schiit Audio Bifrost DAC.

For the technically curious, "Multibit" refers to Schiit's use of a so-called "ladder" or "R-2R" DAC chip instead of the more common today, delta-sigma DAC technology.  The general R-2R type chip is used in all the so-called "NOS" (non-over sampling) DACs that some people consider the best technology.  However Schiit does oversample using a "DSP" (digital signal processing) chip ahead of the actual DAC;  they use a "closed form" filter that ensures that the original data samples proceed to the DAC, no just random interpolation points from the oversampling process.

The Bifrost Multibit is outstanding IMO, (at least in its price range, i.e. US$600); see HERE (http://schiit.com/products/bifrost).  Frankly I have never heard more realistic and plausible sound.  Detail, timbres, instrument decays, and spacial information is all simply more believable than I have heard before.

For those better heeled than I, Schiit also offers up-market versions of the Bifrost Multibit in the Gungnir Multibit, $1250 and top-of-the-line Yggdrasil $2300, models.

(http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/bifrost-main-1920(1).jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 27, 2015, 08:44:46 AM
Quote from: Holden on December 26, 2015, 11:54:45 AM
I just bought something similar in the Fiio Q1 for about $US80. I've attached this to my Sansa View, iPhone 6S and iPad Air with similar results to what Todd has described. It doesn't replace my Fiio E7/E9 combination on my home PC which sounds amazing.

The one issue with upgrading sound cards in PCs is that the sound still has to go through part of the MS Windows sound system with the inevitable degradation in SQ. Much better to use a DAC/amp and bypass it all entirely. It makes a huge difference.

Excellent to know.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pat B on January 31, 2016, 07:44:04 PM
I just picked up a '90s Rotel integrated amp for my home-office system. So now I have:

Onkyo C-7030 -> Rotel RA-970BX -> Mission 731i

The amp is probably more power than I need for my room, but I'm very happy with the sound and hoping to stick with this for a while.

The Rotel replaces a Denon integrated amp (which I was also happy with though the Rotel is probably an upgrade) but I need the Denon in the living room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on February 01, 2016, 02:21:27 AM
Quote from: Holden on December 26, 2015, 11:54:45 AM

The one issue with upgrading sound cards in PCs is that the sound still has to go through part of the MS Windows sound system with the inevitable degradation in SQ. Much better to use a DAC/amp and bypass it all entirely. It makes a huge difference.

This can only be underlined and set in bold. (So I did.)

I just tried listening to music through my computer (have no truly mobile DAC and my CD Walkman [don't laugh] died on me) on the road... and I had to stop with disgust, because it just sounded so ridiculous and bad. I'm far from claiming golden ears, I think cables are a field for elaborate hoaxes, largely, I think SACD/CD is overrated, mp3s underestimated etc. (Still, I cherish good equipment and I'm not deaf.) But with DACs you really hear a difference and the difference between listening through the sound card of your computer and bypassing that glut and getting the music through an external DAC should be as notable as hearing the music on headphones and hearing them in the subway when your seat-neighbour is listening to music on headphones. (Or something like that.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on February 01, 2016, 04:53:39 AM
Quote from: Pat B on January 31, 2016, 07:44:04 PM

The amp is probably more power than I need for my room
Unless you have horn speakers you can NEVER have enough power. Not for playing real loud, but for the relaxed reproduction only a large amp can give even at low volumes, and for feeding enough current into the bass speakers at low frequencies and difficult impedances.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pat B on February 01, 2016, 08:49:23 AM
Quote from: The new erato on February 01, 2016, 04:53:39 AM
Unless you have horn speakers you can NEVER have enough power. Not for playing real loud, but for the relaxed reproduction only a large amp can give even at low volumes, and for feeding enough current into the bass speakers at low frequencies and difficult impedances.

I'd say you want plenty of headroom, but I do think extra power at some point becomes overkill. Where that point is depends on your room, your speakers, and your listening habits. In my case, I suspect the next model down (40WPC) would still provide a lot of headroom, but used wattage costs a lot less than new wattage, and it seems like the 60WPC ballpark is the most readily available anyway.

For my big room, on the other hand, I would not go under 60WPC.

P.S. I love your music room and hope to have something like that at my next place.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mookalafalas on February 01, 2016, 07:14:33 PM
Put together one of these systems--Mirage OMD-15 5.1) from various Ebay sellers (It has been out of production for some time).  I'm very happy with it.

(http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/pics/200712_mirage_groupb.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 01, 2016, 10:05:00 PM
Quote from: Holden on December 26, 2015, 11:54:45 AM
I just bought something similar in the Fiio Q1 for about $US80. I've attached this to my Sansa View, iPhone 6S and iPad Air with similar results to what Todd has described. It doesn't replace my Fiio E7/E9 combination on my home PC which sounds amazing.

The one issue with upgrading sound cards in PCs is that the sound still has to go through part of the MS Windows sound system with the inevitable degradation in SQ. Much better to use a DAC/amp and bypass it all entirely. It makes a huge difference.

I am new to the headphone amp game, but I have been greatly enjoying my Fiio X1, which has no problem driving my Sennheiser HD 25 SP phones. I am interested in a headphone amp to use with my laptop (w/headphones), and also to drive a small stereo system for my office comprising the Fiio and a pair of powered speakers. Any suggestions for the headphone amp that will work well for all three applications (Fiio/headphone, Fiio/powered speakers, and laptop/headphone)? For a PC/Laptop, is it preferable to connect via 3.5 mm plug or USB? I want something portable (no tubes!!!) and affordable. I am favorably inclined toward Fiio products. Thanks.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on February 03, 2016, 01:09:40 PM
Quote from: Holden on December 26, 2015, 11:54:45 AM...

The one issue with upgrading sound cards in PCs is that the sound still has to go through part of the MS Windows sound system with the inevitable degradation in SQ. Much better to use a DAC/amp and bypass it all entirely. It makes a huge difference.

Quite correct.  Most computer music player programs allow you to by-pass the Windows normal audio "stack" (series of programs) by one means or another.  The most common means are:
Computer music players such as Foobar2000 or JRiver support WASAPI themselves, directly or with a readily available plug-ins.  ASIO, on the other hand, usually is particular to your sound card or out-board DAC which very often will provide a Windows driver for their ASIO implementation.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spineur on February 13, 2016, 11:51:07 PM
Last years, I bought this small pair of monitors for my office.  I did not want any more clutter (amplifiers etc) in my office which is not very large.  They are designed for near-field, perfect for a small room.  I am quite satisfied except for piano music, where my main sound system is superior.  I do not know why - perhaps the near field design ?  Strings and brass on the other hand sound great.

As for the source, I have an external DAC which I share with my main system,  but I found that my computer DAC (a hires chip) gives nice result with the following pieces of software
Infinity blade (a player developped by a japanese guy in his garage).  The best sounding player, with the worst UI.  http://oryaaaaa.world.coocan.jp/bughead/ (http://oryaaaaa.world.coocan.jp/bughead/).  It needs ASIO4ALL or JPLAY to bypass windows (see previous post).  I also use Fidelizer, for the handling of memory and processes.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on February 14, 2016, 08:34:31 AM
QuoteThe one issue with upgrading sound cards in PCs is that the sound still has to go through part of the MS Windows sound system with the inevitable degradation in SQ. Much better to use a DAC/amp and bypass it all entirely. It makes a huge difference.

I have this powered wireless speaker from Bowers & Wilkins, the Z2:

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Wireless-Speakers/Wireless-Speakers/Z2

I liked the sound when it was transmitted via wi-fi router from iTunes for Windows from my LR to my BR, but sonic stuttering was frequent and annoying. So I recently purchased a laptop for my Z2, which I connect to the speaker using a male/male 3.5 headphone jack from the headphone output to the aux input on the back of the Z2. There's no more stuttering, but I don't think the music sounds as good as it did when it was streamed to the speaker. Is this my imagination? In both cases, the computers are from Dell and use Windows 7. Is there a DAC solution that would improve the sound?

TIA.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on February 14, 2016, 09:54:57 AM
Quote from: Jay F on February 14, 2016, 08:34:31 AM
I have this powered wireless speaker from Bowers & Wilkins, the Z2:

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Wireless-Speakers/Wireless-Speakers/Z2

I liked the sound when it was transmitted via wi-fi router from iTunes for Windows from my LR to my BR, but sonic stuttering was frequent and annoying. So I recently purchased a laptop for my Z2, which I connect to the speaker using a male/male 3.5 headphone jack from the headphone output to the aux input on the back of the Z2. There's no more stuttering, but I don't think the music sounds as good as it did when it was streamed to the speaker. Is this my imagination? In both cases, the computers are from Dell and use Windows 7. Is there a DAC solution that would improve the sound?

TIA.

Yes. ANY DAC solution will improve the sound. Just bypass the sound-card and plug a DAC -- any DAC -- into your USB slot, connecting it to the speakers directly, and you've taken out the largest source of distortion... the driver of your computer. (It's set up to make speech and some music sound vaguely impressive coming from horrible speakers... ("Realtek Audio Manager" is the main culprit in ThinkPads, for example; though the windows-own way of treating sound isn't much better.)

I happen to have a very simple Firestone Audio cute series dac (http://www.firestone-audio.eu/shop/faq/old-products---no-stock/spitfire-mkii.php)  (and also a very, very excellent DAC in my CD player that I can use separately... but that's only marginal improvement over the initial great improvement), but I don't think recommending anything in particular is what serves you best. Just a big ol' YES to a decent DAC to feed your speakers with is the answer.

P.S. A few pointers on what I think is important in a DAC

1.) USB-in. Essential for your purposes.
2.) Digital RCA (75Ω) in. Convenient if not necessary... i.e. if you have another unit around that you might want to run through the DAC.
3.) Consider if you might also listen to headphones on a regular basis in that position. Then a combined DAC/Headphone Amp, of which there are a good number, would be worth a thought.
4.) Mobility would be less of a concern... from what you say it would need only be as mobile as your speakers and you have electricity outlets in the vicinity, it sounds like.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on February 14, 2016, 10:34:33 AM
At work I have the Nuforce uDac2 connected to my laptop.

At home I have the Fiio E7/E9 which would probably be overkill for your system.

I also have the very good but inexpensive Fiio Q1 which will also bypass your computers own sound setup. The beauty of the Q1 is it's portability and ability to be powered solely by USB. The Nuforce is also USB powered and has an even smaller footprint than the Q1. There are many other options out there.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on April 14, 2016, 08:48:18 AM
I bought me a used, but recently renovated (brand new disc drive) DCS p8i CD/SACD olayer with digital inputs:

(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue28/images/P8i-CD-1000.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on April 14, 2016, 01:36:26 PM
Quote from: The new erato on April 14, 2016, 08:48:18 AM
I bought me a used, but recently renovated (brand new disc drive) DCS p8i CD/SACD olayer with digital inputs:

(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue28/images/P8i-CD-1000.jpg)


Hope you got it at a good price since dCS ain't exactly bargain basement.  The best digital I've heard so far was a three box set up many moons ago that cost more than my current car.  I'm hoping my new digital goodie I got just today can compete with my memories of the dCS I heard.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on April 14, 2016, 08:43:22 PM
Quote from: Todd on April 14, 2016, 01:36:26 PM

Hope you got it at a good price since dCS ain't exactly bargain basement.  The best digital I've heard so far was a three box set up many moons ago that cost more than my current car.  I'm hoping my new digital goodie I got just today can compete with my memories of the dCS I heard.
New price in 2006 was USD 13.000......I got it for 1500  0:). A trade in for a customer that upgraded to a larger DCS rig, from a dealer that were moving house and needed to clear house, with new drive and totally pristine. Built lik a tank and plays like an angel. Joins my Wadia 302 CD and Sony XA5400 ES SACD players.

One of the things that prompted the purchase except for the superb price, was that the DCS had a set of digital inputs and outputs so that its DAC can be used standalone with PCs and other drives.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on April 15, 2016, 02:00:53 AM
Quote from: The new erato on April 14, 2016, 08:43:22 PM
New price in 2006 was USD 13.000......I got it for 1500  0:). A trade in for a customer that upgraded to a larger DCS rig, from a dealer that were moving house and needed to clear house, with new drive and totally pristine. Built lik a tank and plays like an angel. Joins my Wadia 302 CD and Sony XA5400 ES SACD players.

One of the things that prompted the purchase except for the superb price, was that the DCS had a set of digital inputs and outputs so that its DAC can be used standalone with PCs and other drives.

That is nice. And quite ahead of its time, really, given that this baby is a few years old by now... It was one of the main factors I chose the CD/SACD player I ended up with... except that switching inputs on it, from drive to USB takes a few seconds and so long as I have my spitfire mini DAC sitting right next to it, already attached to the amp, I'm often too lazy to bother.  :(

EDIT Additional question:

Has anyone any experience with portable DACs? I need one for my computer, which makes a mess of a sound without one.

Under consideration would be:

Dragonfly (I'm not drawn toward it, but if it really is the bee's knees...)
Denon DA-10
FiiO Q1 (mention has been made of this above) or other FiiO alternatives
Teac HA-P50SE / Onkyo DAC-HA200
or anything that's comparable.

Thanks!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on April 15, 2016, 06:57:46 AM
Quote from: The new erato on April 14, 2016, 08:43:22 PMNew price in 2006 was USD 13.000......I got it for 1500



Now that is a nice price, particularly with a new drive. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on April 15, 2016, 02:01:28 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 15, 2016, 02:00:53 AM
That is nice. And quite ahead of its time, really, given that this baby is a few years old by now... It was one of the main factors I chose the CD/SACD player I ended up with... except that switching inputs on it, from drive to USB takes a few seconds and so long as I have my spitfire mini DAC sitting right next to it, already attached to the amp, I'm often too lazy to bother.  :(

EDIT Additional question:

Has anyone any experience with portable DACs? I need one for my computer, which makes a mess of a sound without one.

Under consideration would be:

Dragonfly (I'm not drawn toward it, but if it really is the bee's knees...)
Denon DA-10
FiiO Q1 (mention has been made of this above) or other FiiO alternatives
Teac HA-P50SE / Onkyo DAC-HA200
or anything that's comparable.

Thanks!

If it's for a standalone PC I'd definitely go Fiio but not the Q1. The flagship Fiio E18 is highly rated as a portable or standalone DAC/amp.

I have the Fiio E9/E7 combination and for the price if is exceptional. Both products were updated to E9K and E17K and used together until the E9K was superseded by the K5. The E9k can still be found on sites like Amazon. It is an amazing amp for the price.

If you want portability then the E17k is still available. This is also the point where I'd bring in the Q1. I've got it and am very happy with the sound and its portability but it doesn't match my E7/E9 combo attached to my PC.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on April 16, 2016, 07:17:55 AM
Quote from: Holden on April 15, 2016, 02:01:28 PM
If it's for a standalone PC I'd definitely go Fiio but not the Q1. The flagship Fiio E18 is highly rated as a portable or standalone DAC/amp.

I have the Fiio E9/E7 combination and for the price if is exceptional. Both products were updated to E9K and E17K and used together until the E9K was superseded by the K5. The E9k can still be found on sites like Amazon. It is an amazing amp for the price.

If you want portability then the E17k is still available. This is also the point where I'd bring in the Q1. I've got it and am very happy with the sound and its portability but it doesn't match my E7/E9 combo attached to my PC.

Thanks much for this. Portability is key, as I don't need it at home but when I travel with my computer. At home I have a very nice DAC setup already.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on April 16, 2016, 02:22:09 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 16, 2016, 07:17:55 AM
Thanks much for this. Portability is key, as I don't need it at home but when I travel with my computer. At home I have a very nice DAC setup already.

Then the Q1 will serve you very well. This is what I use it for. If you do get it then make sure you also get an OTG cable with a micro USB at one end so you can listen to direct digital straight from your laptop/device.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on April 17, 2016, 12:24:19 AM
Quote from: Holden on April 16, 2016, 02:22:09 PM
Then the Q1 will serve you very well. This is what I use it for. If you do get it then make sure you also get an OTG cable with a micro USB at one end so you can listen to direct digital straight from your laptop/device.

OK... I may well go for it, lest I have the opportunity to compare to this and, say, the TEAC. (Which is high on my list, based on reviews such.)
But what about the OTG USB cable? USB-micro-B--> female USB-A?
I would have assumed that it has a USB cable that comes with it... from whatever USB-connection it features (most DACs seem to like USB-Tybe B -- although a portable device might well feature Micro-USB Type B) to my computer's USB... where I need a male USB Type A connector. A quick Amazon search for OTG USB cables shows that they all end in female USB-Type A... which makes me wonder where I'd plug that in.

My DAC at home accesses direct digital just by being plugged into the USB port of my computer with a regular ol' cable, bypassing the sound card of my computer (which really is the whole point, because that's what makes the music sound so crappy).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on April 17, 2016, 11:49:32 AM
That's interesting. Why terminate a cable in USB female mode? Are they assuming that you will plug it into the cable, terminating in USB male, that comes out of your DAP? This was also the situation when I bought the lightning CCK for my iPhone/iPad. I just connected it to the short charging cable that came with my iPhone.

I wonder if a straight cable that is not OTG would do the job?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on April 17, 2016, 01:33:50 PM
Quote from: Holden on April 17, 2016, 11:49:32 AM
...
I wonder if a straight cable that is not OTG would do the job?

It does when I connect my computer to the non-mobile DAC.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on April 20, 2016, 09:31:08 AM
I've made a number of changes to my system since my last post, so here it is for the moment!  ;)

DALI Epicon 2 speakers
SVS SB13 Ultra sub
PrimaLuna Premium Dialogue HP tube integrated amp
Esoteric K-03 SACD player
Oppo 105 Blu-ray player
VPI Scout 1.1 turntable/Ortofon 2M Black cartridge
Musical Surroundings Nova II phono stage
Audeze LCD-XC headphones
Nordost, Audio Analysis interconnects; Kimber Kable speaker cables


(http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac354/Bachtoven/Audio%20System/DSC_0408_zpswcnmw0zv.jpg)

(http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac354/Bachtoven/Audio%20System/DSC_0407_zpsys3oefin.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on May 05, 2016, 05:40:51 PM
(https://files.pccasegear.com/images/AE-B1-th.jpg)


When I picked up a new DAC, I also picked up the Audioengine B1 Bluetooth receiver.  While it has its own (supposedly good) DAC, I bought it because I wanted a handy way to stream from my tablet, so as to expand the radio stations at my disposal by hundreds or thousands and to stream from Amazon and YouTube and what have you.  Set up literally could not be easier (plug it in, fire up a Bluetooth device, press connect) and sound quality is limited to the source material.  YouTube is usually surprisingly good, Amazon is a bit more variable though good enough for most non-classical and even some classical, radio stations online are variable with some good ones and some not so good ones, and other sources will be sampled I'm sure.  The clincher for me was the optical out, which I use to connect to my main system.  A nifty little device.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Brian on May 08, 2016, 06:51:15 AM
HELP

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3d/Help.jpg)

I'm starting long-term planning on big money purchases and finishing up my home, and with this laptop computer on the verge of an early death, it's time to prepare to get some kind of audio system.

I know nothing about audio systems. For the sake of responding to the rest of these questions, please assume I am a blithering idiot. I think I've seen DAC enough to know what it stands for (digital audio converter?), but...that gives you an idea of what you're dealing with.

Here are all sound-related things I currently have:
- a Samsung TV
- a Sony Blu-Ray/DVD/CD player for the TV, hooked up via HDMI
- a dying laptop with a CD drive
- sweet headphones (Audio-Technica M50)
- external HD

Here's what I aspire to be doing with music:
- playing CDs, SACDs, Blu-Rays on some kind of sound system
- beaming lossless downloads to the sound system (most of my MusicWeb reviews are FLAC copies now)
- still using the headphones when, say, lazing under the covers reading a book and listening to Schubert on a Saturday morning

My apartment is 600 sq. ft., so my "living room" is a small space open to the kitchen on one side and with a sliding door to the patio on another side. Which leaves only two proper walls. Space is very limited. There's a chance I'll get to move somewhere a bit nicer in September.

If it helps, I'm planning on replacing this creaky laptop with a "replace your computer" tablet like the Surface Pro. But really no new laptop computers these days have CD drives, so I figure some sort of dedicated sound system is now necessary regardless.

So what are the things that I need? Again, assume idiocy. Speakers. One of those things that sends stuff to the speakers. I really dunno. What bells and whistles are in the "cool add-on if you want to do this and that thing" category, vs. absolute essentials? What additional questions should I answer here?

One of the few things, besides speakers, I think is definitely on my shopping list is a USB DAC for tablet+headphones setup. Yea/nay?

Help?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 08, 2016, 07:33:33 AM
Brian, if you're looking for a laptop just get an Apple Macbook Pro. I currently own one and it's the best computer I've ever owned. For me, PC's have always been difficult to maneuver and extremely clunky. Apple's OS and the way the computer runs in general is intuitive and was designed by people who seem to want to make our lives easier. Apple computer also boast the best audio I've from any computer, so if you're looking for another laptop, keep this suggestion in mind.

As for a stereo system, you can never go wrong with Sony. I have a Sony amp, a Sony CD player, and a Sony MD player. I also own a pair of Polk Audio bookshelf speakers and a Cerwin-Vega center speaker, but, to be honest, I do most of my listening these days through my Apple iPod Classic via a SMSL headphone amplifier and a pair of Philips SHP9500 headphones. I rip all my CDs using 256 kbps, so the quality is excellent. This setup is located at my desk with my trusty Broyhill leather chair. My current setup certainly fulfills all of my needs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on May 08, 2016, 07:50:11 AM
A couple things.

First, a DAC is a Digital to Analog converter.  Very important, and stand-alone units run from maybe $50 to six figures.  Performance varies.

Second, how simple do you want it to be, and what kind of system do you want?  You could go quick and dirty, get a Bluetooth transmitter for your PC, buy a Bluetooth receiver (Logitech for cheap, Audioengine for slightly less cheap) and run that into a pair of powered speakers (Audioengine, say, or Emotiva Airmotiv speakers) and you're good to go with decent enough sound.  You can jump to something like a Sonos based system for some more flexibility.  You'd probably need a separate headphone amp, but there are plenty of reasonably priced options there.

Were I going quick and reasonably priced for a small setup for non-optical disc playback, I'd probably opt for the Salk Streamer and Salk Powered Monitors, (http://www.salksound.com/powerplaymonitor-pricing.htm) or more accurately a variant thereof.  I own three pairs of Salk speakers, and they all sound great, so I know what I would be getting, and I'd see about having them build a pair of powered towers with a proper Class A/B amp rather than Class D.  (Check out the frequency plot on the current model.  Crazy flat for such an affordable speaker, and the measurements are accurate, and the Hiquphon tweeter is a beauty.) 

Ultimately, though, I demand higher quality and would need a better DAC and separates for pre-amp and amp, and proper speakers.  Budget dictates how far you go here.  There are thousands of answers in this type of set-up.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on May 08, 2016, 08:17:59 AM
As space constraints are at a premium for you you need as few boxes as possible. I saw the Arcam Solo advertised recently but I have not heard it yet. Some of the promo detail states....

"Featuring the latest Class G amplification the new Solo brings a level of sound quality unheard of in its class: an impressive 80 watts per channel using 8 ohm speakers and 125 watts using 4 ohm speakers.

In simple terms this means music is reproduced with stunning realism without the messy clutter.

Additionally the Solo has an integrated CD player which supports both CD & SACD playback, along with the customary FM/DAB radio tuner. Built in Bluetooth aptX facility gives you the ability to connect a Smartphone, iPAD or any Bluetooth equipped device so you can listen to worldwide Internet radio or songs stored on your phone/pad.

In fact it has several digital inputs plus four HDMI's so your TV/DVD/BLU Ray/Sky Box can be played through the Solo, making it the most versatile stereo on the market to date"

As stated above I have not heard this yet but I have owned Arcam equipment in the past and I have found it to be very good indeed. Perhaps you could consider something like this. Here is what it looks like....


(http://images.cdn.whathifi.com/sites/whathifi.com/files/styles/big-image/public/brands/news/2015-Nov/arcam-solo-music.jpg?itok=mKuWMx7z)

Suitably sizes speakers to fit your available space could then be bought to make for a very compact but versatile system.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Brian on May 08, 2016, 05:18:04 PM
Thanks, Todd and aligreto (and Jens - that's right, I saw it ;) ) - questions below because this is not simple enough yet  :-[

Quote from: Todd on May 08, 2016, 07:50:11 AM
A couple things.

First, a DAC is a Digital to Analog converter.  Very important, and stand-alone units run from maybe $50 to six figures.  Performance varies.
So it's used mostly for computer-to-headphones? Is it used for anything else? For lazy Sunday morning tablet/headphone listening, would something like this (http://schiit.com/products/fulla) be an all-in-one solution?

Quote from: Todd on May 08, 2016, 07:50:11 AM
Second, how simple do you want it to be, and what kind of system do you want?  You could go quick and dirty, get a Bluetooth transmitter for your PC, buy a Bluetooth receiver (Logitech for cheap, Audioengine for slightly less cheap) and run that into a pair of powered speakers (Audioengine, say, or Emotiva Airmotiv speakers) and you're good to go with decent enough sound.  You can jump to something like a Sonos based system for some more flexibility.  You'd probably need a separate headphone amp, but there are plenty of reasonably priced options there.
Thanks. Assuming (just for sake of argument) Audioengine Bluetooth receiver + powered speakers, add to this a CD/SACD/Blu-Ray player and that would be more or less a complete living room setup? Am I reading correctly that something like this (http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Powered-Speaker-Systems/HD6-CHR-Powered-Speakers) has Bluetooth receiver built in already? I am genuinely this clueless, sorry.

Similarly...
Quote from: Todd on May 08, 2016, 07:50:11 AM
Ultimately, though, I demand higher quality and would need a better DAC and separates for pre-amp and amp, and proper speakers.  Budget dictates how far you go here.  There are thousands of answers in this type of set-up.
Pre-amp??

Quote from: aligreto on May 08, 2016, 08:17:59 AM
As space constraints are at a premium for you you need as few boxes as possible. I saw the Arcam Solo advertised recently but I have not heard it yet. Some of the promo detail states....
Suitably sizes speakers to fit your available space could then be bought to make for a very compact but versatile system.
Thanks! Lack of pricing on the website scares me  :o - I am young (26) and by no means rich (professional writer) so budget is a major consideration and spending even a few thousand $$ on an audio system means skipping travel this summer, or staying in a low-rent apartment an extra year, or something like that.

Do you know the difference between the advertised Arcam for CD/SACD and the "Movie" version? Would audio playback be more or less the same? I would not be opposed to replacing my cheapo Blu-Ray player if it means an all-in-one movie/music box.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Brian on May 08, 2016, 05:29:39 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 08, 2016, 05:18:04 PM
Thanks! Lack of pricing on the website scares me  :o - I am young (26)
Technologically speaking, I'm a terrible young person. Yesterday one of my friends started trying to teach me how to use an RSS feed. And my friends are shocked/outraged that in the car, I play actual physical CDs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 08, 2016, 05:32:22 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 08, 2016, 05:29:39 PMAnd my friends are shocked/outraged that in the car, I play actual physical CDs.

And yet they're still your friends? ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Brian on May 08, 2016, 05:37:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 08, 2016, 07:33:33 AM
Brian, if you're looking for a laptop just get an Apple Macbook Pro. I currently own one and it's the best computer I've ever owned. For me, PC's have always been difficult to maneuver and extremely clunky. Apple's OS and the way the computer runs in general is intuitive and was designed by people who seem to want to make our lives easier. Apple computer also boast the best audio I've from any computer, so if you're looking for another laptop, keep this suggestion in mind.

As for a stereo system, you can never go wrong with Sony. I have a Sony amp, a Sony CD player, and a Sony MD player. I also own a pair of Polk Audio bookshelf speakers and a Cerwin-Vega center speaker, but, to be honest, I do most of my listening these days through my Apple iPod Classic via a SMSL headphone amplifier and a pair of Philips SHP9500 headphones. I rip all my CDs using 256 kbps, so the quality is excellent. This setup is located at my desk with my trusty Broyhill leather chair. My current setup certainly fulfills all of my needs.
Thanks for the sound system comments. (Uh, what's an MD player? Minidisc? You have minidiscs??)

As for Apple vs. PC, I have an Apple computer at my office - one of the huge fancy 28" new iMacs - and a PC laptop at home, so I've had ample time to compare. There are definitely major advantages and disadvantages to each; there are things about Apple I find easier, but also features that are clunky or annoying to me. Not going to make a totally uninformed decision, there. :)

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 08, 2016, 05:32:22 PM
And yet they're still your friends? ;)
Well...it's usually 50s-60s jazz so I turn off the CDs when they hop in.  :P
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on May 08, 2016, 05:40:43 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 08, 2016, 05:18:04 PMSo it's used mostly for computer-to-headphones?


A DAC is used to convert digital to analog and is in PCs, CD players, BD players, everything really.  It is separate from a headphone amp.  (Well, the two can be integrated.)



Quote from: Brian on May 08, 2016, 05:18:04 PMThanks. Assuming (just for sake of argument) Audioengine Bluetooth receiver + powered speakers, add to this a CD/SACD/Blu-Ray player and that would be more or less a complete living room setup? Am I reading correctly that something like this (http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Powered-Speaker-Systems/HD6-CHR-Powered-Speakers) has Bluetooth receiver built in already? I am genuinely this clueless, sorry.


Basically, yes.  You could get a Bluetooth receiver, plug the optical out into the optical in on an Oppo and then connect the Oppo analog outs (or digital out) to powered speakers like from Audioengine.  The Oppo units have volume controls. 

The Audioengine HD6 appears to include a Bluetooth receiver, so you could just plug an Oppo into those and then a Bluetooth transmitting device should be able to connect to the speakers as well.

(The Audioengine's are powered, but have passive crossovers, whereas the Salks I linked have a DAC and amplifier and active crossovers, which promises better sound, even with Class D amplification, of which I am generally not a fan.  That's a different set of issues, though.)



Quote from: Brian on May 08, 2016, 05:18:04 PMSimilarly...Pre-amp??


A pre-amp is basically just the inputs and volume control section of a receiver or integrated amp.  Higher end gear tends to split each function up.  I happen to use a stereo pre-amp and a stereo amp, both with outboard power supplies, so five boxes total just to amplify what comes from the sources.  (My main rig has nine boxes, not including the two box headphone amp connected to it and the three/four [depending on configuration] piece turntable rig currently disconnected from it.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on May 08, 2016, 06:18:23 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 08, 2016, 05:37:43 PM
Thanks for the sound system comments. (Uh, what's an MD player? Minidisc? You have minidiscs??)

As for Apple vs. PC, I have an Apple computer at my office - one of the huge fancy 28" new iMacs - and a PC laptop at home, so I've had ample time to compare. There are definitely major advantages and disadvantages to each; there are things about Apple I find easier, but also features that are clunky or annoying to me. Not going to make a totally uninformed decision, there. :)

You're welcome. Yep, that's correct MiniDisc player. Read all about it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDisc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDisc)

I don't actually own any MiniDiscs that have been released by a record label, but my dad owns a few. He even owns Miles' Kind Of Blue, which is a rare one on MD. Mostly I use MiniDiscs for recording as if I really enjoy a CD I just bought, I'll transfer the CD to MD, and, besides sounding fantastic, they come most in handy when traveling since they're so small.

As for the computer issue, I completely understand. There's always pluses and minuses to consider. Thankfully, for me, the positives of Apple outweigh the negatives. :)

Quote from: Brian on May 08, 2016, 05:37:43 PMWell...it's usually 50s-60s jazz so I turn off the CDs when they hop in.  :P

Very considerate of you. Personally, I'd make them suffer. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Brian on May 08, 2016, 06:32:06 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 08, 2016, 05:40:43 PM
Basically, yes.  You could get a Bluetooth receiver, plug the optical out into the optical in on an Oppo and then connect the Oppo analog outs (or digital out) to powered speakers like from Audioengine.  The Oppo units have volume controls. 

The Audioengine HD6 appears to include a Bluetooth receiver, so you could just plug an Oppo into those and then a Bluetooth transmitting device should be able to connect to the speakers as well.

(The Audioengine's are powered, but have passive crossovers, whereas the Salks I linked have a DAC and amplifier and active crossovers, which promises better sound, even with Class D amplification, of which I am generally not a fan.  That's a different set of issues, though.)
Oppo = something like this? (https://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-103/blu-ray-BDP-103-Features.aspx)

The Salks come with a Chromecast adapter so I guess they'd work along similar lines. A friend of mine says his Chromecast has been a piece of garbage, though. Need to ask him for more info on that. Always in favor of better sound, of course, and Salks are pricier but not outrageous in terms of $$ or space taking-up.

If there was a shopping list like:
- Salk speakers
- Arcam or Oppo every-disc player
- Schiit USB headphone amp/DAC
- Bluetooth transmitter
...would that pretty much cover the bases for playing physical & downloaded/streaming music in the living room and on headphones?


Nine boxes?! Maybe I should visit you and see just how different music sounds in your living room vs. what it sounds like in mine...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 08, 2016, 06:51:45 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 08, 2016, 05:29:39 PM
Technologically speaking, I'm a terrible young person. Yesterday one of my friends started trying to teach me how to use an RSS feed. And my friends are shocked/outraged that in the car, I play actual physical CDs.

Since I too do much of my listening in the car playing actual physical CDs, does that mean we are no longer friends?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Brian on May 08, 2016, 07:17:55 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 08, 2016, 06:51:45 PM
Since I too do much of my listening in the car playing actual physical CDs, does that mean we are no longer friends?
Just that the rest of my friends are shocked/outraged at both of us!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on May 08, 2016, 07:18:06 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 08, 2016, 06:32:06 PM
Oppo = something like this? (https://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-103/blu-ray-BDP-103-Features.aspx)


The 105 is much better than the 103 in terms of analog audio output.  (I have both, plus the 93.)  It's worth the extra outlay if you plan on using the analog outs.  It also has a headphone jack, which is pretty good.  The 103 does not have digital inputs, so it would be a less flexible hub. 

I've not heard the Salk powered speakers, or the top Audioengine, but I can assure you that the Salks would sound significantly better than any Audioengine. 


Quote from: Brian on May 08, 2016, 06:32:06 PM
Nine boxes?! Maybe I should visit you and see just how different music sounds in your living room vs. what it sounds like in mine...


My main rig is in a stereo room.  My living room system is only six boxes.  (All counts exclude speakers, of course.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 08, 2016, 07:24:43 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 08, 2016, 07:17:55 PM
Just that the rest of my friends are shocked/outraged at both of us!

And I don't even know the rest of your friends, or they me. But I would be the first person to admit my own "audio system" is for shit. I have a receiver, speakers, CD player, even a turntable in the living room; but I like to watch movies on my little 9" portable player while lying in bed, and I do most of my music listening these days in the car. Shocking/outrageous, I know.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on May 09, 2016, 03:38:00 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 08, 2016, 06:51:15 AM
HELP

Here are all sound-related things I currently have:
- a Samsung TV
- a Sony Blu-Ray/DVD/CD player for the TV, hooked up via HDMI
- a dying laptop with a CD drive
- sweet headphones (Audio-Technica M50)
- external HD

Here's what I aspire to be doing with music:
- playing CDs, SACDs, Blu-Rays on some kind of sound system
- beaming lossless downloads to the sound system (most of my MusicWeb reviews are FLAC copies now)
- still using the headphones when, say, lazing under the covers reading a book and listening to Schubert on a Saturday morning.


Very basic, as requested:

Source (digital) [usually converts to analog via its own Digital-to-Analogue-Converter or the sound card in your computer, but that's the first real quality issue. More anon.]

->

Amplification (Usually, but not necessarily, the Amplifier which usually, but not necessarily includes the job of selecting the source, adjusting the volume, and pumping the result to the speakers)

->

Reproduction (Speakers)


Now, you have different potential sources -- and it looks it would be best if you have digital sources and do all the quality converting to analogue in one dedicated place, a DAC. This DAC could be your CD/SACD player... which works if they have a digital-IN, but I think that's not the most convenient way to go about it.


To minimize boxes and, ultimately, expenses, I would probably make two elements central:

A great DAC with multiple digital inputs (for your CD/SACD player, for your laptop, for your TV)

Active speakers.

Active speakers (you said "Setup for Dummies", so excuse me if I state something too obvious) have the amplification built-in... the most obvious advantage of it being that you don't need an external amplifier... and that the amplification is matched exactly to the speaker, which eliminates a whole set of variables (which only ever reduce, rarely improve, the audio quality). They may seem expensive but given that you don't need that amp, they are a actually good bang for the buck. And you don't have to worry about cables as much as with passive speakers.


What else? Well... if you find the right machine as a DAC, nothing! In that case, it would be nice if that DAC could offer the following:

- Good Headphone Amplification (there are TONS of good DAC/Headphone Amps out there)
- Several Digital Line Ins to choose between from (including at least one USB!), and preferably via remote control... so that you don't have to plug in and out stuff, just to listen from a different source. That's essential, since when it comes down to listening-time, you don't want any inconvenience.
- Pre-Amp ability... namely a good potentiometer. Say what? Basically a quality volume knob. (There are active speakers with remote controls that have volume adjustment available for you, which could make this optional... though the kind of device you would find that offers all the other things you need will likely have this, too.

There is lots of choice out there... I name only those that I know would qualify. None of this is a recommendation per se, as my setup is passive and slightly different and slightly more cumbersome...

...but, if you opt for this minimal boxes/maximum quality setup, you could look at things like the Oppo HA-1, Ayre Acoustics Codex, Cary Audio DAC-200ts, NAD C 510 Direct Digital Preamp DAC, Burson Audio Conductor Virtuoso, Mytek Manhattan DAC, Box Designs by Pro-Ject Stream Box RS (!), Fostex HP-A8C, Benchmark DAC1 HDR (http://benchmarkmedia.com/collections/specials/products/benchmark-dac1-hdr-digital-to-analog-audio-converter-factory-refurbished?variant=990035397) or Benchmark DAC2 (!), NAD has interesting products along those lines (and are known for value)...

Now you are (almost) independent of how fancy your CD player is... you could get a wonderful old mid-1990s Philips player used (they react much faster than what you'll be used to and the drives are good and the DAC you don't care about anymore, because they have a digital out)... or use whatever you have... and use your computer for Hi-Fi purposes by plugging the DAC into the USB out.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on May 09, 2016, 12:21:58 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 08, 2016, 05:18:04 PM

Do you know the difference between the advertised Arcam for CD/SACD and the "Movie" version? Would audio playback be more or less the same? I would not be opposed to replacing my cheapo Blu-Ray player if it means an all-in-one movie/music box.

I do not know these products as I have not actually seen them yet but I would assume that the CD/SACD only plays those two media whereas the  "Movie" version would play those two plus Blu Ray. Here is a link to the Arcam site if you wish to investigate further....

http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,Solo,Music-Systems,solomusic-cs.htm (http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,Solo,Music-Systems,solomusic-cs.htm)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spineur on May 15, 2016, 02:08:48 AM
For those that are continually running out of memory space on their DAP, Samsung has announced a 256Gb microSDXC for june.  Price probably 200USD or more.
It will be interesting to see if Sandisk will match this & help drive the price down.

Anyway I badly need one of those...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on May 21, 2016, 09:21:12 AM
(http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/bifrost-main-1920(1).jpg)

(http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/yggy-main-1920.jpg)


Last month, after an almost two month wait subsequent to ordering, I got both the Schiit Bifrost Multibit and Schiit Yggdrasil DACs.  The Bimby is used in my 2.1 channel home theater and the Yggy is used in my main stereo.  I did perform some A/B comparisons between them in my main system before putting the Bimby in its new home, and the Yggy is unequivocally superior.  Both are superb, and offer great bang for the buck.  How much of the units' performance is due to the multibit conversion (they are ladder DACs as opposed to the more common Delta-Sigma approach), how much is due to the Schiit specific digital filter, and how much is due to other factors, I cannot say.  I have kept some very rough notes on some listening - for instance, I don't recall having heard vocalizing by Walter Gieseking before - and I may write up something more detailed later.  For now, I have finally reached a place where my system displays the same level of clarity as (my perhaps faulty memory of) the two best systems I've heard before - a dCS/Nagra/ProAc setup, and a Muse/Spectral/Avalon setup.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on May 21, 2016, 02:55:49 PM
I am leaning toward buying a pair of Audioengine A5+ powered speakers for a second system (my office). http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Powered-Speaker-Systems/A5-plus-N-Powered-Speakers (http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Powered-Speaker-Systems/A5-plus-N-Powered-Speakers) They have received numerous enthusiastic reviews and are listed as a Stereophile Class C speaker system under "recommended components"--this alongside much more expensive passive speakers needing amplification.

Source will be my Fiio X-1 and/or laptop with a 3.5mm cable, or possibly bluetooth.  I think the X-1 will have more than enough power for this, but will get a headphone amp if necessary. AS for the laptop, I am not sure what I will need to improve the sound quality--possibly the same amp. All my source files are FLAC. I am unsure about which floorstands (I need about 30" height, I'm guessing) to buy or even how the speakers are secured to the stands. (My Vandersteen 2Ces are bolted to dedicated stands in my other system, but Audioengine does not offer dedicated floor stands for their speakers.)

Any suggestions for such a system for a small room?

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 22, 2016, 07:17:23 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 21, 2016, 09:21:12 AM
Last month, after an almost two month wait subsequent to ordering, I got both the Schiit Bifrost Multibit and Schiit Yggdrasil DACs.  The Bimby is used in my 2.1 channel home theater and the Yggy is used in my main stereo.  I did perform some A/B comparisons between them in my main system before putting the Bimby in its new home, and the Yggy is unequivocally superior.  Both are superb, and offer great bang for the buck.  How much of the units' performance is due to the multibit conversion (they are ladder DACs as opposed to the more common Delta-Sigma approach), how much is due to the Schiit specific digital filter, and how much is due to other factors, I cannot say.  I have kept some very rough notes on some listening - for instance, I don't recall having heard vocalizing by Walter Gieseking before - and I may write up something more detailed later.  For now, I have finally reached a place where my system displays the same level of clarity as (my perhaps faulty memory of) the two best systems I've heard before - a dCS/Nagra/ProAc setup, and a Muse/Spectral/Avalon setup.

I have had three Bifrosts:  original, Uber, and Multibit.  The original to Ubers was a modest improvement, but the Uber to Multibit was huge, particularly in detail and transparency.  Whether this is entirely due to the multibit/ladder DAC topology is hard to say because the upgrade also included an entirely new analog section -- and no DAC is better than its analog section -- but I suspect it's largely due to it.

Presently I'm using the Gungnir Multibit.  The "Gumby" is a modest upgrade to the "Bimby";  this might depend on using the former's balanced output, which, in turn, depends having a balance preamp or integrated.

(http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/gungnir-main-1920.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spineur on May 28, 2016, 08:24:16 AM
The long journey to dematerialized music

I  started ripping all my CD collection and buying hires (96kHz/24bits or DSD64) recordings at the end of last year.  6 months later and over a Terabytes worth of data, I am near the end.  Considering the large of time necessary to convert this CD collection into flac files, I can no longer afford a disk crash.  This is why I just bought this NAS configured in RAID 5: (4-1)*3=9 Terabytes worth of usable space.  This ought to be sufficient for a while.  I had lots of hesitations between Synology vs QNAP options.  Time will tell if I made the right choice

This is unfortunately not the end of the road...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 29, 2016, 03:49:29 AM
Quote from: Spineur on May 28, 2016, 08:24:16 AM
The long journey to dematerialized music

I  started ripping all my CD collection and buying hires (96kHz/24bits or DSD64) recordings at the end of last year.  6 months later and over a Terabytes worth of data, I am near the end.  Considering the large of time necessary to convert this CD collection into flac files, I can no longer afford a disk crash.  This is why I just bought this NAS configured in RAID 5: (4-1)*3=9 Terabytes worth of usable space.  This ought to be sufficient for a while.  I had lots of hesitations between Synology vs QNAP options.  Time will tell if I made the right choice

This is unfortunately not the end of the road...

All hard disks -- and all other media for that matter -- eventually fail:  backups are essential or you will loose your data.  Redundant backup and off-site backups are very desireable.

RAID level 5 seems like a bit of over-kill to me;  level 1, two fully duplicated disks, is good solution of most home users for daily operation.  However at least one additional backup is desirable, and it is a great idea that it be off-line and preferably off-site.

Window 10 offers a "Storage Places" option that allow various types of backup including what is essentially a RAID 1 option.  Unfortunately this isn't a 'NAS' option so you computer must be running and the relevant drive defined to permit access by other computers on your home network.  Unlike RAID, the drives used don't have to be essentially identical to each other.

I have my Win 10 "Storage Pool" consisting of two USB3, 5 terabyte drives which is more than adequate for my approx. 1 TB or music plus all my videos and other data.  I do have multiple other drives on other computer and portable drives on which occasionally back up all data for further redundancy;  I use the Free File Sync program to perform these additional backups, (see http://www.freefilesync.org (http://www.freefilesync.org/)/);  it's a GPU freeware program.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spineur on May 29, 2016, 06:58:18 AM
I have a couple sound systems at home and I need to beam the media to one or the other or both.  Bluetooth or a network system is the only way to do this.  I still havent figured out whether to install a PLEX server or the Kodi apps on the NAS.  The idea is to get rid of any computer, attached drive etc... and pilot the NAS with the IR remote or a phone/tablet.

There is a dedicated sound card on this NAS with a RealTek ALC262 chip.  Its one of the cheaper hires DAC, but because of its dedicated sound card with its own regulators and filters, the result may not be too shabby.  If it is the case, I wont need to buy a second DAC.

This solution is somewhat expensive, mostly because NAS drives cost quite a bit more.  Probably because companies are such good suckers...

However, this means fewer boxes left.  For my main system, 1NAS, 1TV, 1 amplifier, and the speakers.  In addition the blue-ray/CD/HDD recorder/player is still necessary for the time being, but in the long run, it may become redundant.
For the second sound system, my network DAC and my active speakers is the only stuff I need.

In a while, I'll give you some feedback when everything is fully operational.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on June 03, 2016, 11:43:57 AM
Latest on Forbes:


Headphone Exploration At Munich's HIGH END (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/05/30/headphone-exploration-at-munichs-high-end/)

The HIGH END trade fair in Munich, which takes place every May, is the place to be for audiophiles. If you are going there to be inspired, it helps to have deep pockets, of course – and if they are, they won't be deep for long, after having taken a whiff at all the new toys and gadgets that serve to empty them with the promise of aural bliss. But even in the audiophile segment of high prices and diminishing returns for value (think a pair of speakers for 20k or 200k or the like), there are pockets (as it were) for modest budgets...
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/05/Munich_HIGH-END_Forbes_Laurson_SENNHEISER_HD800.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on June 26, 2016, 10:39:35 AM
(http://www.insigniaproducts.com/generated/images/products/productdetail/4156007_sa.jpg)


A few weeks ago, my seven or eight year old el cheapo Insignia executive system all-in-one box gave up the ghost.  I use it in the garage whilst exercising, so while I had to replace it, the new unit had to meet three criteria: it had to be cheap, reasonably reliable, and cheap.  Why not Insignia again, I thought?  The NS-STR514 is a $130 stereo receiver, and it more than fit the bill.  Rated at 100 Wpc - though I would not test that claim with my speakers - it has four analog inputs, a built in Bluetooth receiver, and, of course, a tuner section.  The main laminated core transformer is surprisingly beefy.  Sound is more than good enough for my needs.  And the pleasant surprise here is the tuner section.  It has better selectivity than the stand alone Rega and Naim units I use in other systems, and sound is good.  The tuner alone is worth the meager asking price.  I'm hoping to get seven to eight years out of this.  I may even buy a backup.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: andolink on July 15, 2016, 12:32:56 AM
(http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1540377&amp;d=1468254313)

My newly reconstituted two-channel gear:

Stereo: Audiolab 8200CD >>Simaudio Moon Nēo 340i >>Dynaudio Confidence C1 II's + SVS SB12-NSD

Headphones: Audiolab 8200CD (balanced XLR) >>Balanced Cross-feed X6B >>Audio-gd NFB-6 (balanced XLR) >>Norse Skuld 2 Litz UPOCC >>HiFiMan HE-500
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on July 15, 2016, 12:59:41 AM
Dynaudio is top notch gear.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: andolink on July 15, 2016, 02:03:28 AM
Quote from: The new erato on July 15, 2016, 12:59:41 AM
Dynaudio is top notch gear.

My ears are teling me you're right.   Excellent synergy with the Simaudio amp.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on July 15, 2016, 02:07:23 AM
Quote from: andolink on July 15, 2016, 12:32:56 AM
(http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1540377&amp;d=1468254313)

My newly reconstituted two-channel gear:

Stereo: Audiolab 8200CD >>Simaudio Moon Nēo 340i >>Dynaudio Confidence C1 II's + SVS SB12-NSD

Headphones: Audiolab 8200CD (balanced XLR) >>Balanced Cross-feed X6B >>Audio-gd NFB-6 (balanced XLR) >>Norse Skuld 2 Litz UPOCC >>HiFiMan HE-500

Hi Andy! Nice to see the crossfeeder as part of your great system.  :)

What's with all those hands? The colours are a great match with the painting. Looks nice.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Rinaldo on August 15, 2016, 08:09:20 PM
I thought you guys were serious about audio quality but now I know you're all losers!

Japan's music fanatics want personal grid connection; 'electricity is like blood' (http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-gift-for-music-lovers-who-have-it-all-a-personal-utility-pole-1471189463)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spineur on August 17, 2016, 08:51:30 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on August 15, 2016, 08:09:20 PM
I thought you guys were serious about audio quality but now I know you're all losers!

Japan's music fanatics want personal grid connection; 'electricity is like blood' (http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-gift-for-music-lovers-who-have-it-all-a-personal-utility-pole-1471189463)
Yes I had read that article.  Amazing! Clearly for this guy, extreme is the word.  Actually I would be interested to see his music library.  If you invest into your own power source, you better have some pretty amazing recording.  Another issue is the quality of silence in your home.  How many teenagers in the neighbourhood ?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 21, 2016, 09:27:32 AM
Has anyone done any dabbling in hi-fi DIY?

Recently I completed a stereo pair of speakers that ended up in my home theatre system.  These are of my own design utilizing Dayton Reference 7" mid/woofers and Reference 1.25" soft-domed tweeter.  Used Harris Tech's X-over Pro and Bass Box Pro software to design the crossover and cabinets respectively.  (The pair are pictured below in my stereo system, not my HT system where they've ended up.)

(http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/500/Dayton_Speakers_fr_right.jpg) (http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/500/Dayton_Speakers_in_Stereo_2_.jpg)

I'm currently working on  slightly more ambitious pair based on Scan-Speak drivers;  they are based on Zaph Audio's 'ZRT' design, (see HERE (http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZRT.html)).  i will use completed crossovers supplied by Madison.com, (see HERE (https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph%7Caudio-zrt-2-way-revelator-tower-parts-only-pair/)).  These picture show the nearly completed, but empty cabinets, here pictured in my workshop.

(http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/500/Cabinets_for_ZRT_speakers.jpg)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: andolink on August 21, 2016, 04:29:53 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 15, 2016, 02:07:23 AM
Hi Andy! Nice to see the crossfeeder as part of your great system.  :)

What's with all those hands? The colours are a great match with the painting. Looks nice.

Hi Poju,

Just today saw your reply today.

The hands are, mostly, industrial glove molds--one of my wife's interior decorating ideas as is the dress form just to the right.  The color scheme is also my wife's choice but I selected the painting.

Your crossfeeder is still working perfectly BTW. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 21, 2016, 10:38:53 PM
Quote from: andolink on August 21, 2016, 04:29:53 PM
Hi Poju,

Just today saw your reply today.

The hands are, mostly, industrial glove molds--one of my wife's interior decorating ideas as is the dress form just to the right.  The color scheme is also my wife's choice but I selected the painting.

You're crossfeeder is still working perfectly BTW.

Hello Andy!

I like your wife's interior decorating ideas (the hands more than the dress form).

The painting is well selected.  ;)

Good to hear the crossfeeder is working and hopefully giving value for your money.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on August 21, 2016, 11:14:00 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on August 21, 2016, 09:27:32 AM
Has anyone done any dabbling in hi-fi DIY?

Recently I completed a stereo pair of speakers that ended up in my home theatre system.  These are of my own design utilizing Dayton Reference 7" mid/woofers and Reference 1.25" soft-domed tweeter.  Used Harris Tech's X-over Pro and Bass Box Pro software to design the crossover and cabinets respectively.  (The pair are pictured below in my stereo system, not my HT system where they've ended up.)

(http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/500/Dayton_Speakers_fr_right.jpg) (http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/500/Dayton_Speakers_in_Stereo_2_.jpg)

I'm currently working on  slightly more ambitious pair based on Scan-Speak drivers;  they are based on Zaph Audio's 'ZRT' design, (see HERE (http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZRT.html)).  i will use completed crossovers supplied by Madison.com, (see HERE (https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph%7Caudio-zrt-2-way-revelator-tower-parts-only-pair/)).  These picture show the nearly completed, but empty cabinets, here pictured in my workshop.

(http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/500/Cabinets_for_ZRT_speakers.jpg)
Very nice handywork!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 22, 2016, 05:06:33 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on August 21, 2016, 09:27:32 AM
Has anyone done any dabbling in hi-fi DIY?
My loudspeakers (5 * "Hifi 6/2" + a passive subwoofer "Hifi 55/2") are kits designed by a Finnish guru for Finnish Hifimagazine. The wooden cabinets were pre-made (I can't do much wood work myself) so it was about soldering the crossovers and putting the electrical parts together in the cabinets.

Quote from: Fëanor on August 21, 2016, 09:27:32 AMRecently I completed a stereo pair of speakers that ended up in my home theatre system.  These are of my own design utilizing Dayton Reference 7" mid/woofers and Reference 1.25" soft-domed tweeter.  Used Harris Tech's X-over Pro and Bass Box Pro software to design the crossover and cabinets respectively.  (The pair are pictured below in my stereo system, not my HT system where they've ended up.)

Designing loudspeakers is very difficult and requires experience. So many things has to go right. For example, your speakers might suffer from uneven directivity of the two drivers around crossover frequency. Depends on how high or low the crossover frequency is. How about the balance of power response and frequency response on the radiation axis? How about the phase on crossover frequency? How about the bass reflex port tuning and the size of the cabinet? How about the resonances created by crossover capasitors and driver voice coil inductances? There is so much that can go wrong in less experienced hands. I am not saying your speakers suffer from these problems. When you are aware of them, you can try to avoid them.

Quote from: Fëanor on August 21, 2016, 09:27:32 AM(http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/500/Dayton_Speakers_fr_right.jpg) (http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/500/Dayton_Speakers_in_Stereo_2_.jpg)

I'm currently working on  slightly more ambitious pair based on Scan-Speak drivers;  they are based on Zaph Audio's 'ZRT' design, (see HERE (http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZRT.html)).  i will use completed crossovers supplied by Madison.com, (see HERE (https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph%7Caudio-zrt-2-way-revelator-tower-parts-only-pair/)).  These picture show the nearly completed, but empty cabinets, here pictured in my workshop.

(http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/500/Cabinets_for_ZRT_speakers.jpg)
These loudspeakers of yours look very nice! Especially the red ones look awesome!  0:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 22, 2016, 06:53:42 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 22, 2016, 05:06:33 AM
Designing loudspeakers is very difficult and requires experience. So many things has to go right. For example, your speakers might suffer from uneven directivity of the two drivers around crossover frequency. Depends on how high or low the crossover frequency is. How about the balance of power response and frequency response on the radiation axis? How about the phase on crossover frequency? How about the bass reflex port tuning and the size of the cabinet? How about the resonances created by crossover capasitors and driver voice coil inductances? There is so much that can go wrong in less experienced hands. I am not saying your speakers suffer from these problems. When you are aware of them, you can try to avoid them.

This is all very true.  Using tools such as Bass Box Pro and X-Over Pro makes it a lot easier, however one must be aware of the issues and use common sense selecting the drivers and crossover points.  2-way systems are a easier to design than 3-way which I haven't attempted.

My first speakers were of my own design but the good news is that many designs of experts are available online -- you alluded to one instance.

Quote from: 71 dB on August 22, 2016, 05:06:33 AM
These loudspeakers of yours look very nice! Especially the red ones look awesome!  0:)

These second speakers, as I mentioned, are based on a published design from Zaph Audio, though I used a slightly small cabinet than the ones specified; (in used Bass Box Pro to ensure the right vent port length).

Speaking of the cabinets, I purchased these in knock-down form for Parts Express, (see HERE (http://www.parts-express.com/denovo-audio-knock-down-mdf-116-cu-ft-tower-speaker-cabinet--300-7066)).  The reason is that I don't have a table saw which is more or less necessary to get the required precision, especially for larger panels.  As well as cutting the driver openings, I radiused the edges with a router, and I did fabricate the bases myself.

(http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/500/Cabinets_for_ZRT_speakers.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on November 02, 2016, 01:37:53 PM
I have a quick question two quick questions for our resident Audiophiles.
Like John (MI), I have come to favor Sony equipment, mostly because I've spent buckets on all manner of mid-range stuff the past four years, and Sony always comes out very well.
However...
I am playing from a Sony BluRay disc player via optical out into a Marantz Amp out through excellent 1998 Rega Jura speakers.  I have Sony 5.1 speakers/amp hooked up also (seperate channel), and I cannot make my mind up if I should relinquish the Sony Surround (inc SWoofer) idea in favour of the more 'forward' sounding Jura speakers.  I am prone to think that the Rega speakers due to their so called 'high end' quality should be my choice of output, but the 5.1 setup does make the music 'full'.  I have plenty of DVD's and dongles with lots of digital music on, and I like to put them on too, which is why I have the BluRay...so...

Q1:  If I buy a dedicated CD player (probably Sony) would this be better than using a BluRay player for playing my CD's?  My concern is it will make no difference at all, but if its a dedicated CD player it may have a better DAC for CD music without BluRay and DVD infestation??   :P
Q2:  I am not sure that a 5.1 setup with all its Dolby and sound modes gives a natural sound - it is somehow more like studio sound.  5.1 Sony or the standalone Rega Juras?

God knows if I can be helped.  But thanks for reading all this palaver anyway...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Parsifal on November 02, 2016, 01:46:50 PM
Quote from: Scots John on November 02, 2016, 01:37:53 PM
I have a quick question two quick questions for our resident Audiophiles.
Like John (MI), I have come to favor Sony equipment, mostly because I've spent buckets on all manner of mid-range stuff the past four years, and Sony always comes out very well.
However...
I am playing from a Sony BluRay disc player via optical out into a Marantz Amp out through excellent 1998 Rega Jura speakers.  I have Sony 5.1 speakers/amp hooked up also (seperate channel), and I cannot make my mind up if I should relinquish the Sony Surround (inc SWoofer) idea in favour of the more 'forward' sounding Jura speakers.  I am prone to think that the Rega speakers due to their so called 'high end' quality should be my choice of output, but the 5.1 setup does make the music 'full'.  I have plenty of DVD's and dongles with lots of digital music on, and I like to put them on too, which is why I have the BluRay...so...

Q1:  If I buy a dedicated CD player (probably Sony) would this be better than using a BluRay player for playing my CD's?  My concern is it will make no difference at all, but if its a dedicated CD player it may have a better DAC for CD music without BluRay and DVD infestation??   :P
Q2:  I am not sure that a 5.1 setup with all its Dolby and sound modes gives a natural sound - it is somehow more like studio sound.  5.1 Sony or the standalone Rega Juras?

God knows if I can be helped.  But thanks for reading all this palaver anyway...

If you are using "optical out" on your blu-ray player the signal is entirely digital and is being converted to an audio signal by a DAC in your Marantz amplifier. The blue ray player is doing nothing but passing the digital data without any alteration. If you switch to a CD player and continue to use optical out there will literally be no difference. It is possible that a CD player connected using analog cables could have a better DAC than your amp, but Marantz is a highly regarded brand, so it would probably have to be a high-end CD player.

As for the speakers, let your ears be the judge. If the 5.1 setup gives you more pleasure go with it. If you have the space, there might be an advantage in having both sets of speakers available, you may find that some recordings sound better on one set of speakers and some recordings sound better on the other.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: John Copeland on November 02, 2016, 02:03:44 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 02, 2016, 01:46:50 PM
If you are using "optical out" on your blu-ray player the signal is entirely digital and is being converted to an audio signal by a DAC in your Marantz amplifier. The blue ray player is doing nothing but passing the digital data without any alteration.

Many thanks Scarpia.  Your opening two sentences alone help me understand a lot more as to what to do!  I should've known this about Optical Out, but alas, I did not.  But now I do!    ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Parsifal on November 02, 2016, 02:18:48 PM
You're most welcome.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on November 12, 2016, 06:28:14 AM
(http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?attachments/1a-jpg.5403/)



Schiit is moving into two channel gear.  They're releasing two hybrid pres - tube active, solid state buffer, and passive - and one amp that can be stereo or bridged to mono, and the prices are crazy low - $350 or $700 for the pres, and $700 for the amp.  I never like to be a first production run buyer, but sometime mid-next year, I may end up 'downgrading' my bedroom system.  I just wonder if they go for higher spec stuff later.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on November 16, 2016, 10:32:18 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 12, 2016, 06:28:14 AM
(http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?attachments/1a-jpg.5403/)



Schiit is moving into two channel gear.  They're releasing two hybrid pres - tube active, solid state buffer, and passive - and one amp that can be stereo or bridged to mono, and the prices are crazy low - $350 or $700 for the pres, and $700 for the amp.  I never like to be a first production run buyer, but sometime mid-next year, I may end up 'downgrading' my bedroom system.  I just wonder if they go for higher spec stuff later.

That's interesting.  I've had several Schiit components:  DACs and headphone amp;  I've liked them all though right now I've just got the Gungnir Multibit DAC.  I'm very please with the Gungnir MB; it's driving an ARC LS9 preamp and thence a Pass Labs X150.5 amp, all by balanced connection.

The website isn't showing the tube active preamp or the amp yet.  I could be interested in the former as a possible replacement for my solid state LS9 provided it's balance, but I doubt that they can do a balanced tube pre for $700.  I don't see the amp replacing my Pass Labs though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on November 16, 2016, 10:48:29 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on November 16, 2016, 10:32:18 AMbut I doubt that they can do a balanced tube pre for $700.


Here's the link with the press release. (http://schiit.com/news?m)  Both the Saga and Freya pres are hybrid, and the Freya is balanced, as well.  The Vidar amp is singled ended in stereo mode, and balanced in monoblock mode.  The Saga is on the site now (http://schiit.com/products/saga), and I believe the Freya will be next month, and the Vidar in Q1.  This article has an embedded interview with Moffat and Stoddard. (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/10/saga-freya-vidar-three-fresh-pieces-of-schiit-from-rmaf-2016/)

I've got three Schiit DACs in three systems - the Modi, Bifrost MB, and Yggdrasil - and I've done an A/B between the Modi and Modi MB (the MB is clearly better, though not by a colossal amount).  The Yggy is so good, that I'm thinking about getting another one for my 2.1 home theater as I will not be going multi-channel.  Rumor is an upgrade is coming next year, so I may wait, buy that for my main rig, and then move the current Yggy into home theater duty.  I've also got two Schiit headphone amps - original Asgard and Jotunheim - and bang for the buck is off the charts.  I have high, but realistic, expectations for the two channel stuff.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on November 16, 2016, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: Todd on November 16, 2016, 10:48:29 AM

Here's the link with the press release. (http://schiit.com/news?m)  Both the Saga and Freya pres are hybrid, and the Freya is balanced, as well.  The Vidar amp is singled ended in stereo mode, and balanced in monoblock mode.  The Saga is on the site now (http://schiit.com/products/saga), and I believe the Freya will be next month, and the Vidar in Q1.  This article has an embedded interview with Moffat and Stoddard. (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/10/saga-freya-vidar-three-fresh-pieces-of-schiit-from-rmaf-2016/)

I've got three Schiit DACs in three systems - the Modi, Bifrost MB, and Yggdrasil - and I've done an A/B between the Modi and Modi MB (the MB is clearly better, though not by a colossal amount).  The Yggy is so good, that I'm thinking about getting another one for my 2.1 home theater as I will not be going multi-channel.  Rumor is an upgrade is coming next year, so I may wait, buy that for my main rig, and then move the current Yggy into home theater duty.  I've also got two Schiit headphone amps - original Asgard and Jotunheim - and bang for the buck is off the charts.  I have high, but realistic, expectations for the two channel stuff.

Wow ... I must say I'm impressed by Freya specs, especially that they will apparently offer a balanced tube gain stage for US$700.  I will give this some serious consideration to replace my ARC.

Freya
Balanced Remote Passive/Active Preamp
= Relay switched stepped attenuator (128 steps)
= Selectable passive, JFET buffer, or tube gain operation
= Tube gain stage uses (4) 6SN7 tubes and 300V rail
= 2 balanced inputs, 3 SE inputs, balanced and SE outputs
= Full remote control
= Shipping October 2016 for $699

It's November but it still hasn't shown up on the website.

I totally agree that Schiit components offer huge bang for the buck.  I'm owned the original Modi, Bifrost versions, viz. original, Uber, and Multibit, and the Asgard 2 headphone amp.  Presently I have the Gungnir Multibit -- I'd love the Yggdrasil but its a bit over the top of my price range.

I found the Bifrost Multibit a huge upgrade over the Uber version.  The Gungnir MB is a bit nice than the Bifrost MB but not hugely so except in the bass, and that might be because of the balanced connection
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 07, 2016, 09:39:08 AM
(http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/fulla-front-1920.jpg)


I checked out the Schiit site to see if the Freya is listed, and instead found the new Fulla 2.  A small, portable DAC/headphone amp combo, it has a bit more power, a Japanese designed DAC chip and a TI-designed filter and op-amp, has an analog in and out, and can be used as a DAC, and all for under a hundred.  My original Fulla has a small ding on it, so it may be time to replace it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 09, 2017, 06:20:41 AM
(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17854751_1888134601399555_7821163079830295779_o.jpg?oh=6cceaf7181306a263a19ef8a5903442f&oe=59510F9C)

I know a number of you dig vintage equipment and sometimes we have to allocate our vinyl funds for the listening experience of our youth. For the past few years I have been wanting to add a second turntable to my equipment so that I could have one up and one downstairs. However, for my second one, I wanted it to be a bit more "vintage" than my Project 3 and recreate "that" sound from my youth. Well, the folks over at Electric City came up huge. They refurb and sell vintage equipment from all eras. You name it, they'll fix it. Not only do they do a spectacular job, but are some of the friendliest people you will ever deal with. This beauty came in a few weeks ago and they were happy to hold it for me while they made sure it was ready to go. Well, it landed yesterday and now it's time to hitch it up. The person who owned it before me was in the military and bought while stationed overseas (not sure where and maybe around 1972) and was the only owner before me.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2017, 06:52:18 AM
Quote from: Bogey on April 09, 2017, 06:20:41 AM
(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17854751_1888134601399555_7821163079830295779_o.jpg?oh=6cceaf7181306a263a19ef8a5903442f&oe=59510F9C)

The person who owned it before me was in the military and bought while stationed overseas (not sure where and maybe around 1972) and was the only owner before me.

Cool! That was my first turntable actually. Bought it at Camp (now Fort) McCoy Wisconsin along with a Fisher receiver and AR-2 speakers. Sweet sounding system.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 09, 2017, 06:57:00 AM
I have my dad's Sansui SP300 (the actual pair) and they still sound terrific.  However, would love a set of those AR's!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2017, 07:05:03 AM
Quote from: Bogey on April 09, 2017, 06:57:00 AM
I have my dad's Sansui SP300 (the actual pair) and they still sound terrific.  However, would love a set of those AR's!

Sansui, that brand brings up some memories 8) That was a popular speaker with soldiers. I remember my platoon leader in Korea buying a pair and showing them off.

Sarge
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 09, 2017, 07:14:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2017, 07:05:03 AM
Sansui, that brand brings up some memories 8) That was a popular speaker with soldiers. I remember my platoon leader in Korea buying a pair and showing them off.

Sarge

A young airman stationed and living on the same barracks floor with my dad thought it would be cool if he shared his "Sansui Sound" with the rest of the base by propping them in the windows and seeing what his months' of salary could do.  The MP's were not impressed. ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on April 09, 2017, 07:23:57 AM
 I had at a time 35 years ago a big Sansui amplifier, and two enormous Sansui speakers. At that time I found the the top, but not anymore :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2017, 07:31:09 AM
Quote from: Bogey on April 09, 2017, 07:14:57 AM
A young airman stationed and living on the same barracks floor with my dad thought it would be cool if he shared his "Sansui Sound" with the rest of the base by propping them in the windows and seeing what his months' of salary could do.  The MP's were not impressed. ;)

  :laugh: :D :laugh:

Mediating between competing sound systems (and between rock, soul and country) in the barracks after duty hours was a thrilling part of night and weekend CQ duty. (Charge of Quarters: being the junior NCO in charge of the company after the CO and senior NCOs had gone home.) Fun times  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 09, 2017, 07:45:46 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on April 09, 2017, 07:23:57 AM
I had at a time 35 years ago a big Sansui amplifier, and two enormous Sansui speakers. At that time I found the the top, but not anymore :)

Oh so true, but for me there is something about "home cooking" that appeals to me. So, my system downstairs will have this Dual, a Marantz 2230 receiver, and those Sansuis.  Hearing what it sounded like, or close to it during my younger years, is what I am trying to recreate.  Now, if I my wife would just allow me the shag carpet this room for further retro sound conditioning. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on April 09, 2017, 09:45:08 AM
Quote from: Bogey on April 09, 2017, 06:20:41 AM
(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17854751_1888134601399555_7821163079830295779_o.jpg?oh=6cceaf7181306a263a19ef8a5903442f&oe=59510F9C)

I know a number of you dig vintage equipment and sometimes we have to allocate our vinyl funds for the listening experience of our youth. For the past few years I have been wanting to add a second turntable to my equipment so that I could have one up and one downstairs. However, for my second one, I wanted it to be a bit more "vintage" than my Project 3 and recreate "that" sound from my youth. Well, the folks over at Electric City came up huge. They refurb and sell vintage equipment from all eras. You name it, they'll fix it. Not only do they do a spectacular job, but are some of the friendliest people you will ever deal with. This beauty came in a few weeks ago and they were happy to hold it for me while they made sure it was ready to go. Well, it landed yesterday and now it's time to hitch it up. The person who owned it before me was in the military and bought while stationed overseas (not sure where and maybe around 1972) and was the only owner before me.

Congratulations. Very nice TT. I hope that you derive much pleasure from it  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on April 09, 2017, 12:59:31 PM
Quote from: Bogey on April 09, 2017, 06:20:41 AM
(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17854751_1888134601399555_7821163079830295779_o.jpg?oh=6cceaf7181306a263a19ef8a5903442f&oe=59510F9C)

I know a number of you dig vintage equipment and sometimes we have to allocate our vinyl funds for the listening experience of our youth. For the past few years I have been wanting to add a second turntable to my equipment so that I could have one up and one downstairs. However, for my second one, I wanted it to be a bit more "vintage" than my Project 3 and recreate "that" sound from my youth. Well, the folks over at Electric City came up huge. They refurb and sell vintage equipment from all eras. You name it, they'll fix it. Not only do they do a spectacular job, but are some of the friendliest people you will ever deal with. This beauty came in a few weeks ago and they were happy to hold it for me while they made sure it was ready to go. Well, it landed yesterday and now it's time to hitch it up. The person who owned it before me was in the military and bought while stationed overseas (not sure where and maybe around 1972) and was the only owner before me.

That's a nice, venerable Dual 'table.  I go back to that era in my hi-fi interest.

I don't have much nostalgia for my first system, though.  My first, circa 1972, consisted of ...
I assembled all the Dynaco electronics from kits.

Unlike so many people, I never had a receiver in my principle system.  My current stereo system may be seen HERE (http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/upload.mpl?u=20428&f=stereodiagram25.jpg&v=f&UserImages=20428&session=&invite=&w=819&h=811).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on April 09, 2017, 10:11:36 PM
I also remember those vinyl days with some nostalgia. I eventually ended up with

Linn LP12

Grace F9E cartridge

Jantzen hybrid electrostatic speakers

Mclaren 701 100watt integrated amplifier (which I still have and use it's that good).

I also still have my Peerless MK1000 speakers from that era.

While it looks as if I spent up big, I didn't really as all that gear was acquired second hand.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 14, 2017, 03:20:45 PM
Quote from: Bogey on April 09, 2017, 06:20:41 AM
(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17854751_1888134601399555_7821163079830295779_o.jpg?oh=6cceaf7181306a263a19ef8a5903442f&oe=59510F9C)

I know a number of you dig vintage equipment and sometimes we have to allocate our vinyl funds for the listening experience of our youth. For the past few years I have been wanting to add a second turntable to my equipment so that I could have one up and one downstairs. However, for my second one, I wanted it to be a bit more "vintage" than my Project 3 and recreate "that" sound from my youth. Well, the folks over at Electric City came up huge. They refurb and sell vintage equipment from all eras. You name it, they'll fix it. Not only do they do a spectacular job, but are some of the friendliest people you will ever deal with. This beauty came in a few weeks ago and they were happy to hold it for me while they made sure it was ready to go. Well, it landed yesterday and now it's time to hitch it up. The person who owned it before me was in the military and bought while stationed overseas (not sure where and maybe around 1972) and was the only owner before me.

That's the record player I had as a youth! (Handed down from my step-dad.) I played every record ridiculously wet, not really knowing what I was doing.  :D

Meanwhile, perhaps of interest for some of you: I've compared seven mobile DACs (and a few headphones in the process) on Forbes... which make mobile listening to a laptop possible. It's a bit of a read, at 7000 words, but there's a conclusion at the end you can skip to.  ;)

Review: A Mobile DAC/Headphone Amp Comparison

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9XPgWKVoAEq8St.jpg) (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/04/14/review-a-mobile-dacheadphone-amp-comparison/#510861f0739a)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on April 14, 2017, 07:01:05 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2017, 07:05:03 AM
Sansui, that brand brings up some memories 8) That was a popular speaker with soldiers. I remember my platoon leader in Korea buying a pair and showing them off.

Sarge

     (http://sdroxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/IMG_8579-e1469011014308.jpg)

     These are the Sansui SP-505J. I never had them, I have the woofers. They are great guitar and bass speakers for a low power tube amp.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on April 15, 2017, 03:47:18 PM
I am puzzling over a new audio rack. I have the following components:

- Oracle Delphi Mk. III/SME V arm
- Audible Illusions Modulus 2B preamp
- Nakamichi CR7a cassette deck (trying to find a new home for this--cheap!!!)
- Pioneer CD Recorder (not long for this world, CD playback works, but no longer record)
- ART Phono Pre ADC (replaces at least the record function on the Pioneer)

My audio dealer has one with four or five shelves for $1300 LOL

I am looking at these:

This one is a bit larger, which I like. I also like the lower cost (will buy one additional shelf): http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGVULRK&variation=RNT

However, this one seems to be a bit heavier-duty, with better construction overall:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SMA5

Any thoughts on these?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on May 21, 2017, 01:30:54 AM
After my pipe repair I put my audio system together again. I experienced some problems with the sound. I thought the reason is dust from the repair. I vacuum cleaned my amplifier. It seemed to help. A week ago trying out multichannel modes my amplifier went crazy. I panicked a bit, but then I realised the connection of main speakers wires to the speaker terminal were not as good as I had believed! I was able to get the system working tightening the terminals. At that point I realised these are the only 2x0.752 (~18 AWG ?) wires in my system, the original wires from early 90's when I bought my first pair of loudspeakers and got into hifi. My speakers are 8 Ω, so they don't require very thick wires.

My system has 5 identical* small (6 litres) speakers and a  passive subwoofer (55 litres) for frequencies 25-50 Hz. So, the wires to main speakers go first to the subwoofer and then the high pass filtered ( > 50 Hz ) part from the passive subwoofer to my main speakers. All other speaker wiring is done with 2x2.52 (~14 AWG ?). Makes not much sense to have 2x0.752 from amp to passive sub! So, I bought 10 meters of 2x2.52 for 17 euros. The speaker terminals of my amp seem to give much better connection when thicker wire is used.

My amp has got an ISC -circuit which measures the impedance of the speakers connected and optimizes the amp parameters for that impedance level. The faulty connection must have confused my amp for this reason. Now thanks to the new wires and good connection the amp is working perfectly.  :)


____________________________________
* Multichannel system works best if all the speakers are identical.
Not only are the frequency responses identical, but also phase responses.
A common mistake in multichannel systems is that the center speaker has
different phase response to the left/right speakers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 21, 2017, 07:04:58 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAKrR4oVoAERuHX.jpg:large)
Listened to plenty amazing gear @highendsociety's Munich #highend2017, but nothing was more fun than hijacking @MartinLoganLtd's playlist! pic.twitter.com/d4zVG0sFRu (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/865442452936642562)

I'm really beginning to think that electrostats are about the only clear and obvious game-changer in HiFi... where the increase in quality is painfully obvious and due to systemic reasons.
HD800s sound greater than most but the most expensive headphones that have come since... but Stax sound amazing and are to the HD800 what the latter were to all other headphones 5 years ago.
And the same -- or at least similar -- with speakers. A well-built unit like these simply does things that are amazing, though subtle. I'm looking forward to doing a nice A/B/C/D comparison between these speakers above, their entry model, and two conventional speaker pairs some time this year.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on May 21, 2017, 07:41:38 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 21, 2017, 07:04:58 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAKrR4oVoAERuHX.jpg:large)
Listened to plenty amazing gear @highendsociety's Munich #highend2017, but nothing was more fun than hijacking @MartinLoganLtd's playlist! pic.twitter.com/d4zVG0sFRu (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/865442452936642562)

I'm really beginning to think that electrostats are about the only clear and obvious game-changer in HiFi... where the increase in quality is painfully obvious and due to systemic reasons.
HD800s sound greater than most but the most expensive headphones that have come since... but Stax sound amazing and are to the HD800 what the latter were to all other headphones 5 years ago.
And the same -- or at least similar -- with speakers. A well-built unit like these simply does things that are amazing, though subtle. I'm looking forward to doing a nice A/B/C/D comparison between these speakers above, their entry model, and two conventional speaker pairs some time this year.

Personally I find that electrostatics are best in the mid range and are at their best in reproducing the human voice and acoustic music. I, for one, look forward to your eventual comparisons and results  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on May 21, 2017, 07:46:00 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 21, 2017, 07:04:58 AMI'm really beginning to think that electrostats are about the only clear and obvious game-changer in HiFi


"Game-changer" is hyperbole generally reserved for new technology, not old tech that has been around for decades.  Martin Logans are usually just hybrid electrostats with standard dipole horizontal dispersion characteristics and good vertical dispersion characteristics, which can also be had with planars and symmetrical dynamic driver arrays.  There's nothing magical or unknown going on.  Some people like the sound, some don't.  One beautiful thing about them, though, is one can rely on the "measurements don't tell the whole story" approach more because certain key measurements (eg, CSD) are always terrible, but with such a design, these don't really translate well to real world audible results.  Personally, I dislike dipole designs (irrespective of driver type) precisely because of their dispersion characteristics. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 21, 2017, 08:28:41 AM
Quote from: aligreto on May 21, 2017, 07:41:38 AM
Personally I find that electrostatics are best in the mid range and are at their best in reproducing the human voice and acoustic music. I, for one, look forward to your eventual comparisons and results  :)
Quote from: Todd on May 21, 2017, 07:46:00 AM

"Game-changer" is hyperbole generally reserved for new technology, not old tech that has been around for decades.  Martin Logans are usually just hybrid electrostats with standard dipole horizontal dispersion characteristics and good vertical dispersion characteristics, which can also be had with planars and symmetrical dynamic driver arrays.  There's nothing magical or unknown going on.  Some people like the sound, some don't.  One beautiful thing about them, though, is one can rely on the "measurements don't tell the whole story" approach more because certain key measurements (eg, CSD) are always terrible, but with such a design, these don't really translate well to real world audible results.  Personally, I dislike dipole designs (irrespective of driver type) precisely because of their dispersion characteristics. 

The technology is certainly old; about 100 years. And yes, what they do well will still depend on taste and preferences. It certainly appeals to MY preferences, it seems. Which is total transparency, directness, clarity... lightness. Hybrid electrostats seem reasonable compromises if they work well; A pure electrostat that would be great at doing bass and moving air in large rooms would have to be rather big -- to the point of being either impractical or too expensive.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 20, 2017, 02:52:49 PM
My stereo equipment needs are modest - I have a NAD receiver w/ only analog audio inputs, rebuilt EV speakers from the late 70s, and a Yamaha multi-CD player (also a HDTV & Blu-ray Player) - problem is my HDTV has only an optical audio output, so I cannot plug in its audio to my decent sounding speakers - use an inexpensive soundbar instead.  SO, I'm looking to replacing my receiver w/ a new one accepting digital inputs - found the Cambridge unit below (likely will purchase from Crutchfield (https://www.crutchfield.com/p_779SR20/Cambridge-Audio-Topaz-SR20.html) up the road to me in Virginia - 2 day free shipping + have some credit) - pics below of the front & back of this unit - assume I can just Toslink my HDTV to the digital port in the back; wondering about comments on Cambridge and also any specifics about their receivers.  Thanks - Dave :)
.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-FZBbThx/0/a3bc9e16/O/Cambridge1.png)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-FPFfxNm/0/51a42057/O/Cambridge2.png)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Parsifal on June 20, 2017, 03:58:30 PM
I was an NAD fanatic back in the day, but I had bad experiences from them in recent purchases and stay away.

I recently got a Yamaha RXV-379 which I am quite happy with.

[asin]B00V5VJ3TM[/asin]

It's not a Ritzy brand like Cambridge Audio, but has a very pleasant sound to my ear. (I use it for casual video viewing, not for serious music listening).

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: HIPster on June 20, 2017, 04:29:26 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 20, 2017, 02:52:49 PM
My stereo equipment needs are modest - I have a NAD receiver w/ only analog audio inputs, rebuilt EV speakers from the late 70s, and a Yamaha multi-CD player (also a HDTV & Blu-ray Player) - problem is my HDTV has only an optical audio output, so I cannot plug in its audio to my decent sounding speakers - use an inexpensive soundbar instead.  SO, I'm looking to replacing my receiver w/ a new one accepting digital inputs. Thanks - Dave :)


Hi Sonic Dave!

I bought one of these for a friend a few months ago.  She had the same issue as you here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005K2TXMO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This Fiio works really well; may be just what you need?

Cheers.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 20, 2017, 04:46:52 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 20, 2017, 03:58:30 PM
I was an NAD fanatic back in the day, but I had bad experiences from them in recent purchases and stay away.

I recently got a Yamaha RXV-379 which I am quite happy with.

[asin]B00V5VJ3TM[/asin]

It's not a Ritzy brand like Cambridge Audio, but has a very pleasant sound to my ear. (I use it for casual video viewing, not for serious music listening).

Hi Scarpia - had a Yamaha receiver back in the late 70s-early 80s which was replaced w/ my first NAD receiver, then in the late 90s bought the NAD C740 which 'broke' w/i a year; fixed under warranty and has been fine ever since, so near 18 years of use - BUT, will not accept any digital inputs.  Your receiver looks nice, however, I have a 4+" height w/o major changes in stereo furniture and not interested in other than 2-speaker sound - I'm liking the reviews on the Cambridge unit and the $500 cost is the same that I paid for my NAD back in the late 90s - thanks for the comments.  Dave :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 20, 2017, 08:09:34 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 20, 2017, 02:52:49 PM
My stereo equipment needs are modest - I have a NAD receiver w/ only analog audio inputs, rebuilt EV speakers from the late 70s, and a Yamaha multi-CD player (also a HDTV & Blu-ray Player) - problem is my HDTV has only an optical audio output, so I cannot plug in its audio to my decent sounding speakers - use an inexpensive soundbar instead.  SO, I'm looking to replacing my receiver w/ a new one accepting digital inputs - found the Cambridge unit below (likely will purchase from Crutchfield (https://www.crutchfield.com/p_779SR20/Cambridge-Audio-Topaz-SR20.html) up the road to me in Virginia - 2 day free shipping + have some credit) - pics below of the front & back of this unit - assume I can just Toslink my HDTV to the digital port in the back; wondering about comments on Cambridge and also any specifics about their receivers.  Thanks - Dave :)
.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-FZBbThx/0/a3bc9e16/O/Cambridge1.png)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-FPFfxNm/0/51a42057/O/Cambridge2.png)

     Is your HDTV recent enough to have Audio Return Channel (ARC). Most do, and I think most have for some years. You connect your devices to the correctly labeled receiver inputs (cable, DVD/BD, media player, PC, and the TV is connected to the HDMI out, which feeds video from the inputs to the TV while the TV can be selected as source and destination for the other sources. On my system cable is button 1, USB player 6, TV (for streaming) is 8, and if the streaming is wonky or I want to play 4k files, Roku is 3. You only use the one HDMI on the TV and 4 on the receiver. I don't have a DVD/BD player.

     I would recommend Marantz if your budget can handle it, one of these:

     (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61tu%2B-QXjIL._SL1280_.jpg) (https://www.amazon.com/Marantz-Channel-Surround-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B01EHWFCRM/ref=lp_2529848011_1_1?srs=2529848011&ie=UTF8&qid=1498017742&sr=8-1)

     I have an older non 4k version without HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, which this model has. It's quite similar to receivers by sister company Denon, only fiercer. At $499 it's a good deal.

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Parsifal on June 20, 2017, 10:00:03 PM
QuoteI would recommend Marantz if your budget can handle it, one of these:

     (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61tu%2B-QXjIL._SL1280_.jpg) (https://www.amazon.com/Marantz-Channel-Surround-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B01EHWFCRM/ref=lp_2529848011_1_1?srs=2529848011&ie=UTF8&qid=1498017742&sr=8-1)

     I have an older non 4k version without HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, which this model has. It's quite similar to receivers by sister company Denon, only fiercer. At $499 it's a good deal.

I've been happy with my Marantz gear (2 channel integrated amp, no A/V features). You can't go far wrong with Marantz.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 21, 2017, 05:04:51 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 20, 2017, 10:00:03 PM
I've been happy with my Marantz gear (2 channel integrated amp, no A/V features). You can't go far wrong with Marantz.

     This is a 7 channel amp, which means the power transformer has to be heavy enough to drive all channels to respectable levels, so for 2.1, 3.1, 4.1 operation it will have plenty of reserve power.

     I don't know why small slim receivers are not in demand. Only a few people can stand to be in a room with a 100 w/ch played loud.

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 21, 2017, 07:45:25 AM
Quote from: HIPster on June 20, 2017, 04:29:26 PM
I bought one of these for a friend a few months ago.  She had the same issue as you here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005K2TXMO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This Fiio works really well; may be just what you need?........

Hi HIPster - bought my LG HDTV in 2011 - looked at those Toslink-RCA adapters on Amazon back then and a lot of mixed comments - likely have improved since then, i.e. translating more audio formats.  BUT, my NAD receiver is 20 years old and Father's Day just passed, so went ahead and 'pulled the plug' on that Cambridge receiver shown earlier - size is identical to the NAD so will fit in my stereo console, as is; plus, I liked the simplicity of the controls, so setup should be quit.  Thanks for the recommendation which is certainly worth a try for others in a similar situation.  Dave :)

P.S. thanks Scarpia & Drogulus for your additional comments - much appreciated.  The Cambridge receiver got great reviews on the Crutchfield website and also on Amazon (except for one silly 1*) - have not bought a stereo component in 6 years, so looking forward to its arrival.

P.S.S. also, I checked my LG HDTV's manual and found the page below mentioning ARC (Audio Return Channel) & SPDIF - have doubts that this would work w/ my 20 y/o receiver w/ only RCA analog inputs - don't know?

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-rhfhF8Z/0/72ff671f/X2/LG_ARC_HDTV-X2.png)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 21, 2017, 12:34:25 PM

     ARC is where you connect by HDMI into the receiver then HDMI out to the TV. You only connect to the TV once, because video goes out to the TV while audio goes back the same way. The TV is a source among other sources while it's a destination, too.

     Let's say I want to watch cable, I press input 1 on the receiver remote and cable is routed to the TV, now I want to watch Amazon Prime from the TV, I press 8 on the Marantz remote and choose Amazon on the TV, then I want to watch 4k files on my Roku, I press 3 on the remote and navigate to the file I want.

     All of this doesn't have to happen now, just connect the TV headphone out to your receiver and use the receiver headphone out to replace it. Connect all your devices to the other TV inputs and use the TV remote instead as the controller.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on July 17, 2017, 08:47:52 AM
(http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/vidar-combo-1920.jpg)


I'm contemplating swapping-out/"downgrading" my bedroom system to something more affordable.  Schiit officially released its Vidar amp today.  $700 for 100 Wpc into 8 Ohms, and bridgeable to 400 Wpc into 8 Ohms.  The already available Freya pre, a switchable Passive/JFET Buffer/Tube pre, is also only $700, so $1400 for regular stereo and $2100 for a monoblock setup.  The amp uses a beefed up version of the amplifier topology found in their superb Jotunheim headphone amp.  Decisions, decisions.  If I do buy, I'm gonna wait for a few production runs first, and let any kinks be worked out. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: NikF on July 17, 2017, 08:52:26 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 17, 2017, 08:47:52 AM
(http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/vidar-combo-1920.jpg)


I'm contemplating swapping-out/"downgrading" my bedroom system to something more affordable.  Schiit officially released its Vidar amp today.  $700 for 100 Wpc into 8 Ohms, and bridgeable to 400 Wpc into 8 Ohms.  The already available Freya pre, a switchable Passive/JFET Buffer/Tube pre, is also only $700, so $1400 for regular stereo and $2100 for a monoblock setup.  The amp uses a beefed up version of the amplifier topology found in their superb Jotunheim headphone amp.  Decisions, decisions.  If I do buy, I'm gonna wait for a few production runs first, and let any kinks be worked out.

Indeed. That's the way to go about it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Senta on August 02, 2017, 08:47:21 PM
So...we bit on a receiver for Amazon Prime day, got this for a steal:

Onkyo TX-RZ610 (https://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-RZ610-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B01EG56LB6)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41tFbgqOKWL._SL500_AC_SS350_.jpg)

It's sad this thing is currently hooked up to just an LG soundbar though! ;)

Wondering what speakers would go well with this, in about a 14 x 20 rectangular room (carpeted), mid-size apartment - with both upper and lower neighbors though, who likely don't love classical music as much :/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on August 22, 2017, 05:35:00 AM
Not so much anything I plan on getting, but one of the things I like about audiophile gear is how stoopid some of it is.  The $1200 Shun Mook record clamp was probably my favorite stupid expensive product to this point, with some other Shun Mook products being nearly as silly.  Maple Shade also offers some dubious products.  I also got a kick out of the supertweeter craze.  (No one really offered a credible explanation of how they would work with media that couldn't go above 22.05 kHz.)  But I think Audiophile.Rocks (http://audiophile.rocks/index.html) is now maybe my favorite audiophile snake oil purveyor.  They offer painted wood and "crystal" tweaks, all of which use their proprietary H2U2 piezoelectric quartz crystals to perform magic.  Years ago, my young daughter painted a river rock for me, which I put on top of my preamp.  I swear it did magic things, too.  Maybe I can go into business peddling such rocks.

Oh, yes, the company also sells $4,400.00 USB cables, $2,200.00 SATA cables, and one power cable that costs a very reasonable $25,000.00 for two meters.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Rinaldo on August 22, 2017, 06:16:55 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 22, 2017, 05:35:00 AMOh, yes, the company also sells $4,400.00 USB cables, $2,200.00 SATA cables, and one power cable that costs a very reasonable $25,000.00 for two meters.

Wow, and here I thought those AudioQuest HDMI cables on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-Diamond-2m-Braided-Cable/dp/B003CT2A2M/) couldn't be beaten. The user reviews are still golden.

Speaking of reviews, this one for the crystal thingies (http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/14/01/2016/coconut-audios-vibradome-blue-star-into-the-unknown/) is also priceless. And quite meta towards the end, when the 'reviewer' speaks about gullible audiophiles buying worthless gadgets.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on August 22, 2017, 06:23:56 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on August 22, 2017, 06:16:55 AM
Speaking of reviews, this one for the crystal thingies (http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/14/01/2016/coconut-audios-vibradome-blue-star-into-the-unknown/) is also priceless.


Coconut Audio, the 'manufacturer' of the crystal tweak reviewed, is now Audiophile.Rocks.  From the latter's web-site (bold added):

"Year 2010-2016 our company name changed to Coconut Audio because we used real coconut shells in our early tweaks and cables. We were excited to share our technology and gave away many free cables and tweaks. Our main business was auctions starting at $1 which resulted in personal bankruptcy."

Strange, no mention of fraud lawsuits.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 22, 2017, 08:21:22 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on August 22, 2017, 06:16:55 AM
Speaking of reviews, this one for the crystal thingies (http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/14/01/2016/coconut-audios-vibradome-blue-star-into-the-unknown/) is also priceless. And quite meta towards the end, when the 'reviewer' speaks about gullible audiophiles buying worthless gadgets.

A famous quote:  "There's a sucker born every minute" ~ P.T. Barnum
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pat B on August 22, 2017, 12:09:17 PM
Quote from: Todd on August 22, 2017, 05:35:00 AM
Not so much anything I plan on getting, but one of the things I like about audiophile gear is how stoopid some of it is.  The $1200 Shun Mook record clamp was probably my favorite stupid expensive product to this point, with some other Shun Mook products being nearly as silly.  Maple Shade also offers some dubious products.  I also got a kick out of the supertweeter craze.  (No one really offered a credible explanation of how they would work with media that couldn't go above 22.05 kHz.)  But I think Audiophile.Rocks (http://audiophile.rocks/index.html) is now maybe my favorite audiophile snake oil purveyor.  They offer painted wood and "crystal" tweaks, all of which use their proprietary H2U2 piezoelectric quartz crystals to perform magic.  Years ago, my young daughter painted a river rock for me, which I put on top of my preamp.  I swear it did magic things, too.  Maybe I can go into business peddling such rocks.

Oh, yes, the company also sells $4,400.00 USB cables, $2,200.00 SATA cables, and one power cable that costs a very reasonable $25,000.00 for two meters.

How much for a River Rock Painted By Your Daughter? If you stack two of them on top of each other, is it twice as magical?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 19, 2017, 09:15:02 AM
(http://www.schiit.com/public/upload/general/magni-3-front-1920.jpg)


I definitely do not need another headphone amp, but the new Schiit Magni 3 was released today.  It's a current feedback design with 2 watts into 32 Ohms, and 230 mW into 600 Ohms.  It's more powerful than my Jotunheim.  It's still only $99, to boot.  It probably couldn't hurt to get one.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 20, 2017, 01:24:01 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 19, 2017, 09:15:02 AM
(http://www.schiit.com/public/upload/general/magni-3-front-1920.jpg)
It's a current feedback design with 2 watts into 32 Ohms, and 230 mW into 600 Ohms. 
How much power do you need? My cans output 100 dB for about 1 mW.  That's pretty much all power I need for spikes in the music, because I don't want to become deaf.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 20, 2017, 06:10:48 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 20, 2017, 01:24:01 AM
How much power do you need? My cans output 100 dB for about 1 mW.  That's pretty much all power I need for spikes in the music, because I don't want to become deaf.


With most of my current array of headphones, not much, though my 600 Ohm T1s do require turning up the wick a bit.  I see no harm in having gobs of excess power.  Plus, I'm more interested in hearing if Jason Stoddard managed to get sound approaching that of the Jotunheim for under a hundred bucks.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on October 14, 2017, 08:12:43 AM
(http://www.schiit.com/public/upload/general/magni-3-front-1920.jpg)


I received my Magni 3 three weeks ago, and I've put it through its paces.  Most comparative listening was done with the more expensive Schiit Jotunheim.  The Jotunheim is the better amp, sounding slightly cleaner and more refined up top, and a bit cleaner in the bass.  The Magni sounds a bit warmer/darker in comparison.  That written, this amp reveals fine details well, and when I listened to some test discs selected for non-musical info - Osborne's LvB 106 and Chauzu's Samazeuilh - the piano damper noise, and pedal stomps in the latter, came through loud and clear.  Dynamics, timbre, headstage, etc, are all just fine.  Since the Magni 3 uses the same single ended topology as the Jotunheim, I wonder how much of the performance differential is down to power supply differences - the Magni uses a wall wart while the Jotunheim has a more robust internal supply.

I also compared to the Magni to my old Creek OBH-11 SE, with it's big old floor wart power supply, and which was about $300-350 when new.  The Magni is obviously superior in every way.   Much more open sounding, with much cleaner highs and tighter bass, I've rarely heard such significant differences between same type units (ie, solid state vs solid state) before.  At a hundred bucks, bang for the buck is off the charts.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 19, 2017, 03:33:36 PM
Finally got around to getting a Raspberry Pi to experiment with as a Squeezebox Touch replacement.  I had been using the Touch as a transport for my Auralic Vega USB DAC.  (All my music files are on an Ubuntu server in my loft).

I burned the PiCorePlayer OS image to a microSD card and inserted it into the Pi, plugged in the ethernet to the LAN, plugged in the DAC's USB cable, applied power, and a few seconds later my Logitech Media server recognized the new player and reported its IP address.  You then navigate your web browser to that IP address to access the piCorePlayer configuration page.  There was not much configuration to do, I just had to turn off the onboard sound to get it to connect to the USB DAC.  I control music playback with the iPeng app on my iPhone.

Apart from having to run out to Best Buy to get an overpriced microSD card reader at the last minute, all very painless.  Altogether, the Pi board, a plastic case, power supply, and microSD card were about $65.  The original Touch was $400.

Right away the Pi eliminated a problem I had with playback stutter when switching from standard rez to hi-rez files and back.  It can also handle obscene sample rates over the Touch's 192 kHz limit and can play DSF (DSD) files natively (I could never get these to play with the Touch).

The Pi (this is a 3B) has built-in Wi-Fi and an analog mini-jack, both of which I turned off.  There's an option I haven't tried to run the LMS server on the Pi itself to create an all-in-one media server/transport (this might be a tight fit in the 1G RAM of the Pi).  There are snap-on Pi daughter boards if you need SPDIF or I2S output or want to use more sophisticated DAC chips than the built-in one.  You can also add a touch display, but I never used the one on the Touch.

http://www.easysqueezebox.com/index.php/projects/raspberry-squeezie-pi-squeezelite/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on November 19, 2017, 08:18:21 PM

    I prefer to play all file types from one device, both audio and video and rather than fuss with home brew I'm thinking of getting an Oppo UDP 203 UHD player which will play all the audio and video formats in my collection. The move doesn't come from a recurrence of audiophilia but from technological necessity. I'm a USB media player guy. If you've gone to the trouble of creating 10+ TBs of files so you never have to play a disc you need a bullet proof machine. It doesn't even have streaming apps.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on November 30, 2017, 08:30:22 AM

  Dear GMG members, I hope all of you are doing well  :).  Please I need some help.  I have a Panasonic Bluray player DMP-BD60 that I use to watch my operas.  My amp is a Rega Elex-R.  The way I am presently set up is that I have run an HDMI cable from the bluray player to my Panasonic TV.  The picture quality is outstanding.  The issue I have now is that the Rega Elex-R amp does not have a built in DAC and therefore does not have an optical in for the sound.  So I have connected the bluray player through its phono out to the phono in of the amp.  If I am understanding this correctly the audio conversion is being carried out by the dac in the Panasonic Bluray player?

  If that is the case  would I benefit by investing in an external dac? Or is it a waste of money?

  I would appreciate any feedback you might have.  I know very little about external dacs unfortunately.

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on November 30, 2017, 08:34:25 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on November 30, 2017, 08:30:22 AMIf I am understanding this correctly the audio conversion is being carried out by the dac in the Panasonic Bluray player?

  If that is the case  would I benefit by investing in an external dac? Or is it a waste of money?


The BD player is performing the conversion and outputting an analog signal.  An external DAC could provide better sound, but if you like the sound now, it may not be worth it.  If you think the sound is subpar, then a new DAC might make sense. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Parsifal on November 30, 2017, 08:37:42 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on November 30, 2017, 08:30:22 AM
  Dear GMG members, I hope all of you are doing well  :).  Please I need some help.  I have a Panasonic Bluray player DMP-BD60 that I use to watch my operas.  My amp is a Rega Elex-R.  The way I am presently set up is that I have run an HDMI cable from the bluray player to my Panasonic TV.  The picture quality is outstanding.  The issue I have now is that the Rega Elex-R amp does not have a built in DAC and therefore does not have an optical in for the sound.  So I have connected the bluray player through its phono out to the phono in of the amp.  If I am understanding this correctly the audio conversion is being carried out by the dac in the Panasonic Bluray player?

  If that is the case  would I benefit by investing in an external dac? Or is it a waste of money?

  I would appreciate any feedback you might have.  I know very little about external dacs unfortunately.

  marvin

Depends on how picky you are, but the answer is probably yes, since the blu ray player is an inexpensive consumer grade player with a converter chip that probably costs $5 at best and your amp is a pricey audiophile unit.  However, you would have to give more information before a recommendation could be made. Do you listen on headphones or speakers, are you interested in surround sound, or do you intend to list to the 2 channel audio program only, etc.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on November 30, 2017, 08:45:45 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 30, 2017, 08:37:42 AM
Depends on how picky you are, but the answer is probably yes, since the blu ray player is an inexpensive consumer grade player with a converter chip that probably costs $5 at best and your amp is a pricey audiophile unit.  However, you would have to give more information before a recommendation could be made. Do you listen on headphones or speakers, are you interested in surround sound, or do you intend to list to the 2 channel audio program only, etc.

  Hello Scxarpia,

  2 Channel audio only, and I listen to floorstanding speakers, Monitor Audio Silver 8.  My CD player is a Marantz 6004 CD player by the way.  I am very impressed with the Marantz, never had the need to change it.  Its the audio off of the Bluray player that I am questioning. 

  marvin

 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on November 30, 2017, 08:50:00 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on November 30, 2017, 08:45:45 AM2 Channel audio only, and I listen to floorstanding speakers, Monitor Audio Silver 8.


A DAC should improve sound.  Cambridge Audio, Musical Fidelity, NAD, Audioengine, Schiit, and others all make low price DACs.  Rega makes a very good one, but it costs more.  It might make sense to see if a local dealer would let you audition one, or to buy one with a return period, so you can test before committing.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Parsifal on November 30, 2017, 08:50:11 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on November 30, 2017, 08:45:45 AM
  Hello Scxarpia,

  2 Channel audio only, and I listen to floorstanding speakers, Monitor Audio Silver 8.  My CD player is a Marantz 6004 CD player by the way.  I am very impressed with the Marantz, never had the need to change it.  Its the audio off of the Bluray player that I am questioning. 

  marvin



Here is my suggestion. Pick a CD with good sound quality and compare how it sounds when you listen using your CD player and your Blu Ray player. If you notice that it sounds worse on the Blu ray player you should think about a DAC. If you don't notice a significant difference, there is probably no need.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on November 30, 2017, 08:51:41 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 30, 2017, 08:50:11 AM
Here is my suggestion. Pick a CD with good sound quality and compare how it sounds when you listen using your CD player and your Blu Ray player. If you notice that it sounds worse on the Blu ray player you should think about a DAC. If you don't notice a significant difference, there is probably no need.

  thank you sir!  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on November 30, 2017, 09:05:11 AM


  I played the Dana Ciocarlie Schumann CDs.  CD 2 in the Marantz and CD3 in the Bluray player.  I kept toggling between the two on the amp.  I am shocked! I could barely tell the difference!

How could this be?

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on November 30, 2017, 09:09:21 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 30, 2017, 08:50:00 AM

A DAC should improve sound.  Cambridge Audio, Musical Fidelity, NAD, Audioengine, Schiit, and others all make low price DACs.  Rega makes a very good one, but it costs more.  It might make sense to see if a local dealer would let you audition one, or to buy one with a return period, so you can test before committing.

  Thank you Todd for your feedback.  I followed Scarpia's suggestion as I posted and I could barely tell the difference between the two! I am still shocked!

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Parsifal on November 30, 2017, 09:10:55 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on November 30, 2017, 09:05:11 AM

  I played the Dana Ciocarlie Schumann CDs.  CD 2 in the Marantz and CD3 in the Bluray player.  I kept toggling between the two on the amp.  I am shocked! I could barely tell the difference!

How could this be?

  marvin

The answer is that an inexpensive DAC can be pretty good. My experience is that a truly fine piece of audio equipment may distinguish itself by not creating fatigue after extended listening, rather than having an obviously more pleasing sound. You may get more insight by listening to an extended piece on one, then on the other, rather than very brief A/B comparison.  Also, you may want to compare orchestral/vocal music since that is what you will presumably be using the blu ray player for.

Finally, if you don't like tinkering with audio equipment, you might find it more convenient to simply upgrade to a better Blu Ray player rather than investing in a DAC. The Oppo brand is known for making players with good quality audio circuitry.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on November 30, 2017, 09:28:08 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on November 30, 2017, 09:09:21 AM
  Thank you Todd for your feedback.  I followed Scarpia's suggestion as I posted and I could barely tell the difference between the two! I am still shocked!


Matsushita appears to have designed a high quality chip for mass market products.  (I believe your player uses the UniPhier chipset.)  Giant consumer electronics firms can still crank out good hardware. 

I recently had to replace a TV.  I ended up with a Samsung that cost less than a third of what I paid for a smaller TV a decade ago.  When I set it up, I did some A/Bs between running my BD player through the TV to the DAC (via HDMI, then Toslink) and straight to the DAC (via Toslink).  On my old TV, the sound degraded when I did that; on my new TV, I could not hear a difference.  My new TV now serves as a de facto digital hub to feed my DAC.  Now one remote controls everything, whereas before I had to futz with different devices.  (My DAC has no remote, so if I wanted to switch digital sources, I was faced with the primitive option of having to get up and walk over to the device and press a button!)  Consumer electronics are constantly getting better at the lower end of the price spectrum.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 01, 2017, 07:49:50 AM

    I just got a new 4k HDR TV and a budget receiver (both Sony). My sources are a Roku and hard drives with music and video on them. Since everything is working as planned I'll put off getting the Oppo. No doubt the commodity DAC chips in the Sony AVR are no better than they need to be for a $200 unit. My older Marantz AVR almost certainly had better ones and the Oppo better still. My choice is convenient and since I don't play loud in my small living room the amp isn't stressed.

     AVRs for music reproducers work quite well as long as you have enough power available for all the speakers. My recommendation for the budget conscious would be to avoid the cheapest ones and go 1 or 2 levels up from that. If you need volume AVRs and power amps generally get better as they get heavier. My Sony weighs 17 lbs, an uh oh for a large room but all I need. If you want volume and are connecting a bunch of speakers the 20 lb model will be good. Note that rated power is very close between the models I'm comparing, that won't tell you anything.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spineur on January 11, 2018, 09:27:41 AM
My Nakamichi amplifier finally died after a 6 months agony, so I had to find a replacement.  It turns out I also needed a network streamer to play my digital music stored on my QNAP NAS.  I opted for this relatively cheap pioneer NC 50 DAB

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81idJQw2dZL._SL1500_.jpg)

Very pleasantly surprised to see how extremely easy to set up.  Found the NAS immediately and the navigation through directories of composers, albums with the remote is easy.  I havent tested the digital radios, spotify/tidal/qobuz capacities, but this is something I was looking for.  It has a CD player as well.  The DAC chip is a Sabre 32 bits which is used in many high end hifi players.  It supports also fire connect for multirooms audio broadcasting.

Listening to Haendel Ariodante/Minkowski right now.  The sound is a bit "digital" for my taste.  Maybe there are setting to improve this.

It is listed for 850 euros on Amazon.fr but got it from Hifi Fabrik (a German outfit) for 630 euros.  Not bad.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on January 12, 2018, 01:24:37 PM
This is a long thread, and I'm not sure whether I asked this before. Can anyone recommend adjustable (height) speaker stands appropriate for these powered speakers (AudioEngine A5+)? https://audioengineusa.com/shop/poweredspeakers/a5-plus-powered-speakers/

I may periodically take them from room to room, and the height of my ears off the ground will be different in different chairs. I have Vandersteens in my main system, and these have their own dedicated stands.

Aside from that I've never bought speaker stands before. Do most smaller speakers have a common mount like camera bodies of various manufacturers that have the same threaded hole to fit any tripod head? How can I be sure a given stand will work for these speakers? Any thoughts/advice on what I should buy?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 12, 2018, 04:41:42 PM


    I decided to get the Oppo 4k unit as my all purpose media source. All in my case means all file kinds from a bunch of HDDs. It also has an HDMI in so you can run a streamer or PC into it if you're out of inputs on the AVR or just because it's convenient. As I expected the thing plays everything. You can even professionally calibrate the video and use basic setting on the TV for cable. For music you hit the pure button and that turns off the front panel display and the video circuits.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on January 14, 2018, 02:20:58 AM


    Yesterday I had the pleasure of listening to the following speakers (Sonus Faber Venere 2.5), powered by a Musical Fidelity amp.

  (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0653/5587/products/sf2.5blk.jpg?v=1428599479)

  I was stunned! They were superb with classical music and sounded SMOOTH as SILK! I did not know that speakers could sound like this. One day I would love to get these. Something to budget for within the next 5 years perhaps....

 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on January 14, 2018, 02:37:28 AM
And this is the cheap end of their range. Advice: Don't listen to the > USD 10.000 stuff. There's no going back.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on January 14, 2018, 09:15:59 AM
Quote from: The new erato on January 14, 2018, 02:37:28 AM
And this is the cheap end of their range. Advice: Don't listen to the > USD 10.000 stuff. There's no going back.

  I can well imagine! By the way, I wouldn't consider their retail value, new of £2400 cheap.  Plus you need an amp in the £1500-£2000 range to get the most out of them and a CD player in the £1000-£1500 range and before you know it you are spending £5400 pounds on a system. That's really pricey in my opinion.

 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on January 14, 2018, 10:06:25 AM
Yes indeed, but it's still the cheap end of their range. I've listened to their 8 grand 2 way systems and lived with their 4 grand floorstanders for some months a few years ago........
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 27, 2018, 11:00:26 AM
My Bose Quietcomfort noise-canceling headphones got stolen, and I want to replace them. Mainly I would use them with my phone (either wired or bluetooth) or maybe with a tablet or laptop for casual listening here and there. I have more serious headphones for listening to the real stuff at home.

Any suggestions as to which would provide better fidelity, the latest Bose QuietComfort Series III, or the Sony competitor WH1000XM2, or maybe something else noise-canceling at the same price point (about $300).

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61QwytXOcxL._SL1500_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8117Z6zWB8L._SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 28, 2018, 07:47:10 AM
No comment, eh.

Changed my mind. Going for the Bose QuietComfort 25 noise canceling headphones, basically because are simple wired headphones, no wireless connectivity.

Basically, the wireless connectivity of the QuietComfort 35 or the Sony seems like it would be nice, but bluetooth is always irritating to use: you have to wait for it to connect, deal with the inevitable instance when it fails to find the device, deal with the inevitable instances when it finds the device when you don't want to use the device, deal with the situation where there are multiple devices in range and you have to figure out why it keeps connecting to the wrong one, etc. Plus these fancy headphones are controlled by an app, and they have a button that automatically invokes Google Assistant. Does there have to be an app for everything? Do I have to talk to my headphones? When I finish listening to the Hamerklavier Sonata, will it be interrupting to suggest I listen to Andre Rieu?

I am anticipating the day when you can't use a toe nail clipper without configuring the app and logging into the clipper. Then they will sell data about you to the highest bidder, and your health insurance rates will go up because of health concerns based on analysis of your toe nail clippings.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 28, 2018, 08:28:46 AM
My turn to ask an esoteric question. I've been thinking of upgrading my turntable. I have the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon which costs c. $400, it's about 5 years old, and I think it's great.

My question is: if I upgraded to a turntable in the $500-$1000 range - i.e. something not vastly more expensive than what I already have - would the improvement be worth it? I can understand getting major improvement from a table that costs 1000s of $$, but what about going just one step above?

Please tell me it's not worth it, I don't want to get sucked down the audiophile rabbit hole!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 28, 2018, 08:42:15 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 28, 2018, 08:28:46 AM
My turn to ask an esoteric question. I've been thinking of upgrading my turntable. I have the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon which costs c. $400, it's about 5 years old, and I think it's great.

My question is: if I upgraded to a turntable in the $500-$1000 range - i.e. something not vastly more expensive than what I already have - would the improvement be worth it? I can understand getting major improvement from a table that costs 1000s of $$, but what about going just one step above?

Please tell me it's not worth it, I don't want to get sucked down the audiophile rabbit hole!

The most critical component is the cartridge, and after that the tonearm, whose job is maintain constant tracking force on the stylus, and introduce negligible friction resistance as the stylus follows the groove from the edge to center. The quality of the bearings is crucial. The task of spinning a disc at constant speed is very simple compared to that. I'd think about whether the tone arm of the new turntable is better.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 01, 2018, 02:41:30 PM
Oddly enough, I get attracted to the idea of getting a turntable (the last one I had was an old Thorens which worked like crap). But then I remember I threw all my LP records away three years ago. Problem solved. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 01, 2018, 02:51:41 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 01, 2018, 02:41:30 PM
Oddly enough, I get attracted to the idea of getting a turntable (the last one I had was an old Thorens which worked like crap). But then I remember I threw all my LP records away three years ago. Problem solved. :)

I never threw them away - they were stored in my parents' basement, and that gave me the incentive to buy a turntable. It started as a kind of nostalgia trip, wanting to hear all those records again that I had last listened to years ago. (It's not because I was deeply convinced by the arguments of the Anstendig Institute or anything like that.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 01, 2018, 03:00:48 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 01, 2018, 02:51:41 PM
I never threw them away - they were stored in my parents' basement, and that gave me the incentive to buy a turntable. It started as a kind of nostalgia trip, wanting to hear all those records again that I had last listened to years ago. (It's not because I was deeply convinced by the arguments of the Anstendig Institute or anything like that.)

Truth be told, I saved about a dozen LPs. Now I can think of another dozen I should have saved. But there were probably 200 of them, at least, and the others I don't miss.

Didn't realize anyone around here still remembers Anstendig and his Institute. The web site still exists, at least. I still remember there was some obscure phono cartridge which, before he got it, no one had ever heard music properly before.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: BasilValentine on March 01, 2018, 04:18:48 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 01, 2018, 02:41:30 PM
Oddly enough, I get attracted to the idea of getting a turntable (the last one I had was an old Thorens which worked like crap). But then I remember I threw all my LP records away three years ago. Problem solved. :)

Hah! Never gave mine up. Or my records. I cobbled together a system with a Technics turntable, receiver and tape deck, still going strong after thirty five years of use, two different CD players, and a pair of Cerwin-Vega speakers. About the latter: I went to a big stereo store in Boston armed with Shostakovich's Tenth and King Crimson's Larks' Tongues in Aspic and tried numerous speakers. I picked the ones that sounded best. When on computer I use Sony headphones.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on March 02, 2018, 05:36:18 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 28, 2018, 08:28:46 AM
My turn to ask an esoteric question. I've been thinking of upgrading my turntable. I have the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon which costs c. $400, it's about 5 years old, and I think it's great.

My question is: if I upgraded to a turntable in the $500-$1000 range - i.e. something not vastly more expensive than what I already have - would the improvement be worth it? I can understand getting major improvement from a table that costs 1000s of $$, but what about going just one step above?

Please tell me it's not worth it, I don't want to get sucked down the audiophile rabbit hole!

I got onto the hi-fi treadmill back in the day when LPs were really the only option, (tape cassette was around but new).  What I always hated about LPs was the concern to keep them dust- and scratch-free and avoid wear & tear in generally.  I understand that some people actually enjoy handling the physical albums, admiring the covers, reading the back and liner notes, destaticing and dusting them.  But I hated the handling rituals.

I bought my first hi-fi CD player an couple of years after the introduction of that media, after prices and settled down a bit.  By the mid '90s I ceased buying LPs altogether.

There are still lots of people who say the LPs sound better than CD.  I say it basically isn't so.  In the early days neither the average CD nor most CD players sounded very good so it was easy to make the claim, but 21st century CDs and CD playing technologies, (no longer restricted to actual, self-contained players), have come a long, long way.

It's always been true that 90% of sound problems aren't the playback media or equipment but rather the recording and engineering processes.  But if these processes are well doe, a CD or hi-rez computer file will beat an LP everytime.  Further I will assert, at the risk of the ire of many, that LPs and the phonograph playback stream are preferred by their admirers because they filter the sound in a pleasing way
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 02, 2018, 06:24:41 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on March 02, 2018, 05:36:18 AM
There are still lots of people who say the LPs sound better than CD.  I say it basically isn't so.  In the early days neither the average CD nor most CD players sounded very good so it was easy to make the claim, but 21st century CDs and CD playing technologies, (no longer restricted to actual, self-contained players), have come a long, long way.

It's always been true that 90% of sound problems aren't the playback media or equipment but rather the recording and engineering processes.  But if these processes are well doe, a CD or hi-rez computer file will beat an LP everytime.  Further I will assert, at the risk of the ire of many, that LPs and the phonograph playback stream are preferred by their admirers because they filter the sound in a pleasing way

Now that I've been back into vinyl for a few years, my conclusion is that neither medium intrinsically sounds better than the other. When I've compared CDs to their LP equivalents, sometimes the CD is better, sometimes the LP is, sometimes you can barely tell the difference. Even that is too general a statement, because different issues of the same recording, irrespective of medium, often sound different. Vinyl fans can get obsessive about sonic differences between different issues of a particular LP.

The only generalization I feel confident in making is that LPs are more ambient and CDs more precise. But that's a gross generalization based on years of listening experience.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on March 02, 2018, 08:09:08 AM
Studio or mastering work is far more important than medium, and that goes for SACDs as well.

Just bought me one of these. Will probably be my last CD/SACD device, but I don't stream and cannot be bothered to rip:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-A0Nq4Xze0Ig/WShMd2QsNKI/AAAAAAAA5jk/dhnblg4Asyo5KssLHqJiYhkXyvPn0byCQCEw/s640/Pioneer_PD70AE_Front_links.jpg)

Still awaiting delivery BTW.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 02, 2018, 08:27:32 AM
Pioneer? They're still in business? What is the country of manufacture?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 02, 2018, 09:18:40 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 02, 2018, 08:27:32 AM
Pioneer? They're still in business?

Why wouldn't they be still in business?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 02, 2018, 09:26:33 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 02, 2018, 09:18:40 AM
Why wouldn't they be still in business?

I don't recall having seen reference to them for a while.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on March 02, 2018, 09:40:03 AM
Quote from: The new erato on March 02, 2018, 08:09:08 AM
Studio or mastering work is far more important than medium, and that goes for SACDs as well.

Just bought me one of these. Will probably be my last CD/SACD device, but I don't stream and cannot be bothered to rip:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-A0Nq4Xze0Ig/WShMd2QsNKI/AAAAAAAA5jk/dhnblg4Asyo5KssLHqJiYhkXyvPn0byCQCEw/s640/Pioneer_PD70AE_Front_links.jpg)

Still awaiting delivery BTW.

     I enjoy ripping. What I really enjoy, though, is having all my music on a single HD (backed up on another), and all the videos, organized with fanatical precision, on a group of portable drives, connected through a hub to my Oppo. I'm never more than a few button presses away from my entire media collection. The outlay in initial effort to get the system up and running is definitely worth it. You can do it fast or slow and take years or weeks to complete it. HD space is cheap, you don't even have to add compression. My entire uncompressed music collection is 213GB, a trivial size.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 02, 2018, 11:07:21 AM
Says on Wikipedia

"In September 2014, Pioneer agreed to sell Pioneer Home Electronics (Home A/V) to Onkyo"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Corporation

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spineur on March 02, 2018, 11:10:59 AM
Quote from: Daverz on March 02, 2018, 11:07:21 AM
Says on Wikipedia

"In September 2014, Pioneer agreed to sell Pioneer Home Electronics (Home A/V) to Onkyo"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Corporation
True, but the two brands still exist separately.  They do marketing together I believe.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on March 02, 2018, 07:41:15 PM
Analog: Get an Oracle Delphi Mk. III or later with SME V arm or GTFO. (http://www.planetsrk.com/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/custom/batch1/boxing.gif)

As for me, I just turned on my Audioengine 5+ powered monitors for a second system. Very impressive for this size and price point. I will probably buy the woofer later on, but for now, they are breaking in and are quite satisfying for most music except pipe organ. Impressive volume, soundstage and dynamics! The bamboo finish is only another 60$ and is absolutely gorgeous! They remind me of Sonus Fabers in terms of build quality and finish.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: lisa needs braces on March 15, 2018, 08:07:48 PM
My computer speakers -- standing a bit behind my computer desk -- are Audioengine A5+ powered speakers.

They have served me well over the years, and I plan to hold on them for quite a few more. They're powered so no amplifier necessary.

My headphones are the Senheiser HD 650s -- one of my grandest splurges, and I plan to keep them until they fall apart.

But in general audophilia is an ambition of mine as much as some people loathe it as wanton consumerism or quackery >:D.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on March 18, 2018, 09:49:56 AM
I recently upgraded my VPI Scout 1.1 to a VPI Prime Signature with an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge. Wow, the clarity and sense of realism are astounding.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ImJ2g5M3YdF5J1Z1QVnsl1xOak2Um8_NAN7n8dztYT2jcm6D_ZdBSVCO0ykWIK3Rl9VEoyTwtcPPJt5-s6JVT4gHiHiEwjZZF1PRWXw5CqifDfM2mLcifr0CWicTPdMwLIZellXEggxwT67-JOKP7DET8vKmj0Pdj1dkRY3YTNlosl_XR41BdzcA-yMhP7xwzTuDDUN9QeiZ-ZXGDXyt25OLHZtBJQmG7QKxhAYzy0AClW5V1tKjXx8-qDyqY5D75EtzuzwKsiQdkUTW21zwDHAiuexuSO_ClygiU_6RcI0lI8EQZvV73zfsyHgLrrlaWG2GW_m6YCnigqeH2IwL9w9tHECIZPk4O2k8NFl2SCD7SM1a27dqPpuX7A7vj9ufhwSi-nDTapfQT6m6bDfNBTtkYlsH2BdQ4_TEZf9373urqlyJ5onGTyiJwoLzEZnvj6GHRSzzkVIGeP7eC29Ktg9yFmCd21-8D4JR9AHaF-o4--NCSsl3wDtiCV4KQnCEiY0w8JVjaQkd0pi281WCXQkEHby-rcEyqzMI-AvazJbWEiLsuw9g1xnUggVv4E0CBK3ty2NJ9L01RQWyGtE7N8gxolhpB2h8-i8YAFc=w1266-h949-no)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on March 23, 2018, 10:23:31 AM
I'm replacing my Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's that I've enjoy for 13 years with something new.  Not that I don't like the Maggies but their size has always been a bit overwhelming in our smallish living room that is also my listening room.

The Maggies replacements are a pair of DIY, (do it yourself), two-way small towers based closely on Zaph Audio's ZRT, (Revelator Tower), design that use high-grade Scan-Speak drivers.  See http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZRT.html (http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZRT.html)

So far I don't seem to be losing much with the ZRT's versus the Magneplanars.  The latter being bipolar planars do offer a somewhat more expansive sound stage but the former are even more transparent, detailed, and airy with equal or better bass.

Some pics ...

(http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=20428&f=dscf0517-x02.jpg)

(http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=20428&f=dscf05473dxsml.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2019, 12:27:48 AM
Before they disappear entirely (since Oppo & Cambridge have stopped making high-end blue-ray players, esp. set up for audio and stereo; apparently because their supplier no longer provides some relevant parts but presumably also because they don't see a future in the market), I got myself a Cambridge CXU. And, in an upgrade from my humble Firestone Audio Cute DAC, I added a T+A DAC8 DSD to the lineup. Although it's not asked to do a whole lot, yet, so the "upgrade" has been actually rather marginal, I must say.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on June 19, 2019, 05:23:05 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2019, 12:27:48 AM
Before they disappear entirely (since Oppo & Cambridge have stopped making high-end blue-ray players, esp. set up for audio and stereo; apparently because their supplier no longer provides some relevant parts but presumably also because they don't see a future in the market), I got myself a Cambridge CXU. And, in an upgrade from my humble Firestone Audio Cute DAC, I added a T+A DAC8 DSD to the lineup. Although it's not asked to do a whole lot, yet, so the "upgrade" has been actually rather marginal, I must say.

I've given up on disc players.  They always seem to break down on me.

The last DAC I bought was the little Topping D10 for use in my headphone system.  This has the same ES9018 DAC chip as the Auralic Vega in my main system.  The Topping is $90 on Amazon.  I did compare them briefly in my main system, but the test was inconclusive.  I'm not sure I can bring myself to pay kilobucks for a DAC again.

And I just ordered a pair of these, which have gotten a lot of hype lately:

(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5abb8b4ee2ccd145df988d1a/5abb9011758d462671bba72a/5c51c9b07924e871fa0ed90b/1548863926545/S400-white-1.jpg?format=1500w)

Buchardt S400 speakers.  Free shipping and free return within 30 days.


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 23, 2019, 03:57:37 PM
Quote from: Daverz on June 19, 2019, 05:23:05 AM
I've given up on disc players.  They always seem to break down on me.

The last DAC I bought was the little Topping D10 for use in my headphone system.  This has the same ES9018 DAC chip as the Auralic Vega in my main system.  The Topping is $90 on Amazon.  I did compare them briefly in my main system, but the test was inconclusive.  I'm not sure I can bring myself to pay kilobucks for a DAC again.

And I just ordered a pair of these, which have gotten a lot of hype lately:

(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5abb8b4ee2ccd145df988d1a/5abb9011758d462671bba72a/5c51c9b07924e871fa0ed90b/1548863926545/S400-white-1.jpg?format=1500w)

Buchardt S400 speakers.  Free shipping and free return within 30 days.

Those Buchardt S400 look very interesting;  I like the idea of the waveguide on the tweeter.

I think Topping generally makes great products.  I recently replace my Schiit Gungnir Multibit DAC with a Topping DX7s DAC which is 1/3 the price but just as good, and has a headphone amp to boot.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61kpt3FSUOL._UY500_.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on June 23, 2019, 04:30:49 PM
Yeah, I wish I'd known about the Topping headphone amp/DAC gear before buying the Schiit.  It would have simplified things.  The D10 is USB bus powered, so at least it doesn't need an extra wall wart.

I'm starting to get cold feet on the Buchardts.  It was partly an itch to scratch after 10 years with my Vandersteens.  But I just got digital room correction tuned in just so, and the system sounds fantastic.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 24, 2019, 06:36:52 AM
Quote from: Daverz on June 23, 2019, 04:30:49 PM
Yeah, I wish I'd known about the Topping headphone amp/DAC gear before buying the Schiit.  It would have simplified things.  The D10 is USB bus powered, so at least it doesn't need an extra wall wart.

I'm starting to get cold feet on the Buchardts.  It was partly an itch to scratch after 10 years with my Vandersteens.  But I just got digital room correction tuned in just so, and the system sounds fantastic.

What digital room correction are you using?

I'm toying with the idea of getting a miniDSP device such as the nanoDIGI 2x8 B ...
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/nanodigi-2x8-b (https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/nanodigi-2x8-b)

(https://www.minidsp.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/282A0870.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on June 24, 2019, 03:36:37 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on June 24, 2019, 06:36:52 AM
What digital room correction are you using?

I'm toying with the idea of getting a miniDSP device such as the nanoDIGI 2x8 B ...
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/nanodigi-2x8-b (https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/nanodigi-2x8-b)

(https://www.minidsp.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/282A0870.jpg)

My toolchain is:

I described my procedure in a post at ASR, which probably needs some updating.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/room-measurement-tutorial-for-dummies-part-2.5/page-9#post-163964

There are other free options to generate the filters, like rePhase and PORC, and commercial ones like Acourate or Audiolense.

Also, many other music players and servers provide convolution engines, like Volumnio, Roon, Foobar, etc.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on June 25, 2019, 12:33:05 AM
Quote from: Daverz on June 19, 2019, 05:23:05 AM
I've given up on disc players.  They always seem to break down on me.



Wish I didn't read that! My main source is analogue, and to compliment that a couple of years ago I purchased a second-hand Denon CD player for £20. It has never missed a beat. The upgrading bug has taken hold and today taking delivery of, again second-hand, a Quad player which unlike the Denon is a serious investment. The law of sod........... :(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on June 25, 2019, 12:37:10 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 25, 2019, 12:33:05 AM
Wish I didn't read that! My main source is analogue, and to compliment that a couple of years ago I purchased a second-hand Denon CD player for £20. It has never missed a beat. The upgrading bug has taken hold and today taking delivery of, again second-hand, a Quad player which unlike the Denon is a serious investment. The law of sod........... :(

Which type of Quad player did you purchase?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on June 25, 2019, 07:29:09 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on June 25, 2019, 12:37:10 AM
Which type of Quad player did you purchase?

99 CD P2.

(https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2018/12/22/0/f/8/0f828f13-94d8-49a3-a322-797007e4423e.jpg)

Arrived today and I am delighted (so far). I am particularly attracted to the variable output of this player which enables me to dispense with a passive Pre I used with the Denon.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 26, 2019, 07:41:45 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 25, 2019, 07:29:09 AM
99 CD P2.

(https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2018/12/22/0/f/8/0f828f13-94d8-49a3-a322-797007e4423e.jpg)

Arrived today and I am delighted (so far). I am particularly attracted to the variable output of this player which enables me to dispense with a passive Pre I used with the Denon.

Nice toy! (Although I admit that I've never quite liked the look of QUAD equipment. So chunky...
Do you hear a distinct difference to your other player?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on June 26, 2019, 07:55:31 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 25, 2019, 07:29:09 AM
99 CD P2.

(https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2018/12/22/0/f/8/0f828f13-94d8-49a3-a322-797007e4423e.jpg)

Arrived today and I am delighted (so far). I am particularly attracted to the variable output of this player which enables me to dispense with a passive Pre I used with the Denon.

Congratulations and I hope that it gives you many years of pleasurable listening.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on June 26, 2019, 05:08:46 PM
This is the Quad gear I'd love to have

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/FSatPkQV-kc/maxresdefault.jpg)

The ESL-2812 electrostatic speakers.  I've heard a similar model at my local audio salon crammed into one of their smaller rooms, and they still sounded great.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 27, 2019, 03:36:30 AM
Quote from: Daverz on June 24, 2019, 03:36:37 PM
My toolchain is:

  • REW and a Umik-1 mic to measure the impulse response of my system + room.
  • DRC-FIR to generate the room correction filters.
  • brutefir and the BrutefirDRC plugin as the convolution engine on my Squeezebox server (running on Ubuntu).

I described my procedure in a post at ASR, which probably needs some updating.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/room-measurement-tutorial-for-dummies-part-2.5/page-9#post-163964

There are other free options to generate the filters, like rePhase and PORC, and commercial ones like Acourate or Audiolense.

Also, many other music players and servers provide convolution engines, like Volumnio, Roon, Foobar, etc.

That's great information.  Thanks very much, I'll be checking it out thoroughly.

Maybe you could set me straight on one point:  I had the impression the REV could generate a FIR file as well as impulse response data.  Is this not so?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on June 27, 2019, 09:03:48 AM
Quote from: Daverz on June 26, 2019, 05:08:46 PM
This is the Quad gear I'd love to have

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/FSatPkQV-kc/maxresdefault.jpg)

The ESL-2812 electrostatic speakers.  I've heard a similar model at my local audio salon crammed into one of their smaller rooms, and they still sounded great.

I hope that you ultimately achieve your goal Dave. I own a pair of ESL 63s and they sound wonderful especially when driven by valves. I have not heard the ESL-2812 electrostatic speakers but the provenance is certainly recommendable.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on June 27, 2019, 01:36:46 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on June 27, 2019, 03:36:30 AM
That's great information.  Thanks very much, I'll be checking it out thoroughly.

Maybe you could set me straight on one point:  I had the impression the REV could generate a FIR file as well as impulse response data.  Is this not so?

I'll have to look into that.  The procedure I'm aware of involves generating a set of correction filter definitions in REW, exporting that as XML, and then loading it into rePhase to generate the FIR filter.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30035-using-rew-and-rephase-to-generate-amplitude-and-time-domain-corrections/?tab=comments#comment-604260
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on June 28, 2019, 06:29:01 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 26, 2019, 07:41:45 AM
Nice toy! (Although I admit that I've never quite liked the look of QUAD equipment. So chunky...
Do you hear a distinct difference to your other player?

Bass. Although Quad are best known for mid-range it is deeper bass that is most noticeable.

I am most impressed with the build quality of this deck. It did cross my mind to investigate the sister 99 Pre-amp which has a phono input for both MC and MM. I presently have an all valve/tube based system and my present Pre sounds great but is, I must admit, an ugly piece of kit (two boxes). The sleeker lines of the Quad would go down very well with the better half. Would a transistor Pre work with a valve Power I wonder?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on June 28, 2019, 06:33:48 AM
Quote from: aligreto on June 26, 2019, 07:55:31 AM
Congratulations and I hope that it gives you many years of pleasurable listening.

Cheers, Aligreto.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on June 28, 2019, 07:41:39 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 28, 2019, 06:29:01 AM
Bass. Although Quad are best known for mid-range it is deeper bass that is most noticeable.

I am most impressed with the build quality of this deck. It did cross my mind to investigate the sister 99 Pre-amp which has a phono input for both MC and MM. I presently have an all valve/tube based system and my present Pre sounds great but is, I must admit, an ugly piece of kit (two boxes). The sleeker lines of the Quad would go down very well with the better half. Would a transistor Pre work with a valve Power I wonder?

Some say that this combination actually gives a better balance.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on June 29, 2019, 01:07:02 AM
Quote from: aligreto on June 27, 2019, 09:03:48 AM
I hope that you ultimately achieve your goal Dave. I own a pair of ESL 63s and they sound wonderful especially when driven by valves. I have not heard the ESL-2812 electrostatic speakers but the provenance is certainly recommendable.

Len Gregory AKA "The Cartridge Man" used (still does far as I know) a pair of Quad ESL 63s hooked up to a pair of ancient refurbished BBC house valve amplifiers. An unusual set-up with each amp on the floor next to the ESL 63 it is driving connected by the shortest possible speaker leads and long interconnect lead to Pre (I cannot recall which). The sound was magnificent.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on June 29, 2019, 01:25:24 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 29, 2019, 01:07:02 AM
Len Gregory AKA "The Cartridge Man" used (still does far as I know) a pair of Quad ESL 63s hooked up to a pair of ancient refurbished BBC house valve amplifiers. An unusual set-up with each amp on the floor next to the ESL 63 it is driving connected by the shortest possible speaker leads and long interconnect lead to Pre (I cannot recall which). The sound was magnificent.

I still have a pair of ESL 63s, refurbished by Quad, and Quad valve amplifiers, which have to be refurbished. I can attest to the quality of sound, which is indeed fantastic.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on June 29, 2019, 08:58:40 AM
People say that esl63s are too inefficient to drive with old valve amps, which tend to have low output. The Quad II was built for the ESL 57. The amp that Quad built with the 63 in mind is a transistor amp, the 306. I'm sure that there are excellent, powerful and very expensive modern valve amps which can do the job. And the truth is you can never tell how an amp will be with a speaker till you try it, a low output we'll designed power amp may well have enough grip to drive 63s, I'd love to hear 63s with some of the older more powerful Radford amps, for example.

I have a pair of 63s and I have a 306, but in fact I've never tried them together - I may just do that tonight!

Re the 2812, I haven't heard them, but some people certainly report that the quality is better from older quads, though you don't get as much of a bass response. On the other hand I have a friend with 2912s which he rates very highly.

It's not easy to move a lot of air with electrostatics. For that reason you may consider the bass in the 63s or 57s satisfactory. Or you may want to explore using subwoofers, which is what I've done.

It's important to try before you buy. Properly set up the 63s do something very distinctive which the 2812s may do or may not, your dealer or Quad themselves should be able to tell you: they project the sound in a way which creates the image about 30cm behind the panels. You will either love it or loathe it, I have a friend who can't stand it, he says it's like listening to music through a postbox!

I said properly set up, but this is not easy. With ESLs as with all great hi fi, you have to design the room around the system, not the system around the room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on June 29, 2019, 10:15:51 AM
I have Wayne Picquet rebuilt 57s in a second system, and I owned Estat Solutions rebuilt 63 in the past.

I personally prefer the sound of the 57 even if they are more limited in what they can do compared to the 63. But when I had 63 I felt they were limited as well. So far a custom built set of constant directivity waveguide/horn speakers are the only ones that I have heard that match the midrange of the 57. Even the full range Sound Labs that I've heard several times sound too clinical or dry compared to the 57.

For piano and chamber music the 57 and 63 are among the best speakers I have ever heard. My main system has Harbeths since they are in my other place's living room and my wife prefers more normal looking speakers, but the midrange on them absolutely pales compared to the 57.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on June 29, 2019, 10:49:01 AM
Quote from: staxomega on June 29, 2019, 10:15:51 AM
I have Wayne Picquet rebuilt 57s in a second system, and I owned Estat Solutions rebuilt 63 in the past.

I personally prefer the sound of the 57 even if they are more limited in what they can do compared to the 63. But when I had 63 I felt they were limited as well. So far a custom built set of constant directivity waveguide/horn speakers are the only ones that I have heard that match the midrange of the 57. Even the full range Sound Labs that I've heard several times sound too clinical or dry compared to the 57.

For piano and chamber music the 57 and 63 are among the best speakers I have ever heard. My main system has Harbeths since they are in my other place's living room and my wife prefers more normal looking speakers, but the midrange on them absolutely pales compared to the 57.

Have you tried modern LS3/59s, ones like Falcon Acoustics?  Everyone says what you say about 57s, but I believe that good LS3/59s are very fine too in midrange.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on June 29, 2019, 11:26:37 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 29, 2019, 10:49:01 AM
Have you tried modern LS3/59s, ones like Falcon Acoustics?  Everyone says what you say about 57s, but I believe that good LS3/59s are very fine too in midrange.

I haven't heard them. My Harbeths are big ones, the Super HL5 (one revision before the Plus), I wanted them to play louder than the Quads and have better bass extension which is why I was looking for larger than the well known BBC models.

I was considering their LS3/5a kits when I was looking for speakers for my office, I ended up going with JBL LSR306 MK2.

If anyone here doesn't mind active speakers (using digital crossovers) I would suggest hearing Dutch and Dutch 8c, I have heard from several people I trust that they are the best speakers they have heard for classical. There is a dealer in London that has them, I think he is happy to audition them for people even if they aren't in the market to buy.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on June 29, 2019, 11:39:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 29, 2019, 08:58:40 AM
With ESLs as with all great hi fi, you have to design the room around the system, not the system around the room.

This is so true. From room dimensions to construction materials the room can make or break a system. Diffusion alleviates some of this.

Quote from: Mandryka on June 29, 2019, 08:58:40 AM
they project the sound in a way which creates the image about 30cm behind the panels. You will either love it or loathe it, I have a friend who can't stand it, he says it's like listening to music through a postbox!

As long as the width of the soundstage isn't the width of a postbox ;)... Or are you referring to the focused image of an individual instrument?

Quote from: Mandryka on June 29, 2019, 08:58:40 AM
It's not easy to move a lot of air with electrostatics. For that reason you may consider the bass in the 63s or 57s satisfactory. Or you may want to explore using subwoofers, which is what I've done.

I had a pair of Martin Logan hybrids and I am not sure if it was the crossover, the fact that they were hybrids, or even the panel itself, but they gave the sound a certain plasticky character. The thought of having to supplement panels such as the CLS with subwoofers always put me off pure electrostatics and I have since moved on to full range ribbon planars.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on June 30, 2019, 02:28:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 29, 2019, 08:58:40 AM
People say that esl63s are too inefficient to drive with old valve amps, which tend to have low output. The Quad II was built for the ESL 57. The amp that Quad built with the 63 in mind is a transistor amp, the 306. I'm sure that there are excellent, powerful and very expensive modern valve amps which can do the job. And the truth is you can never tell how an amp will be with a speaker till you try it, a low output we'll designed power amp may well have enough grip to drive 63s, I'd love to hear 63s with some of the older more powerful Radford amps, for example.

I have a pair of 63s and I have a 306, but in fact I've never tried them together - I may just do that tonight!

Re the 2812, I haven't heard them, but some people certainly report that the quality is better from older quads, though you don't get as much of a bass response. On the other hand I have a friend with 2912s which he rates very highly.

It's not easy to move a lot of air with electrostatics. For that reason you may consider the bass in the 63s or 57s satisfactory. Or you may want to explore using subwoofers, which is what I've done.

It's important to try before you buy. Properly set up the 63s do something very distinctive which the 2812s may do or may not, your dealer or Quad themselves should be able to tell you: they project the sound in a way which creates the image about 30cm behind the panels. You will either love it or loathe it, I have a friend who can't stand it, he says it's like listening to music through a postbox!

I said properly set up, but this is not easy. With ESLs as with all great hi fi, you have to design the room around the system, not the system around the room.


I eventually ended up having to mark the floor with tape in order to preserve exact positioning after much micro tweeking!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on June 30, 2019, 02:30:44 AM
I have a friend who has a stacked 57's setup very similar to this....


(http://mniec.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/hqdusa_resize.jpg?w=594&h=413)


Admittedly he has a large house and a very tolerant wife. I forget what they are driven by, certainly low wattage valves, but they sound wonderful, particularly with jazz and acoustic music.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on June 30, 2019, 04:55:40 AM
Quote from: aligreto on June 30, 2019, 02:28:41 AM
I eventually ended up having to mark the floor with tape in order to preserve exact positioning after much micro tweeking!

Audiophilia is a terrible and costly ailment of which there is no known cure!  ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on June 30, 2019, 05:10:32 AM
I forgot to say that I have on my ceiling the Quad II valves. In original boxes. Will send them out for servicing, and use them again with my ESL'S
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on July 01, 2019, 10:24:26 PM
Quote from: "Harry" on June 30, 2019, 05:10:32 AM
I forgot to say that I have on my ceiling the Quad II valves. In original boxes. Will send them out for servicing, and use them again with my ESL'S

I think you mean "in your attic ", though I do know someone who built speakers into the ceiling for better bass response.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on July 01, 2019, 11:42:44 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 01, 2019, 10:24:26 PM
I think you mean "in your attic ", though I do know someone who built speakers into the ceiling for better bass response.

I have the system stored neatly in the attic, yes, ceiling was the wrong word, but someone was installing a new ceiling in my house, so hence the wrong association  :laugh:
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Artem on July 03, 2019, 08:40:11 AM
Has anyone had any experience with Denon mini systems? I'm thinking about getting a smaller system with just two speakers, which could give good sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on July 03, 2019, 09:29:39 AM

     I remember liking a pair of Celestion Ditton 10s back in the '70s. They were used by the BBC as monitors before the LS3/5a.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on July 03, 2019, 09:35:18 AM
Quote from: Artem on July 03, 2019, 08:40:11 AM
Has anyone had any experience with Denon mini systems? I'm thinking about getting a smaller system with just two speakers, which could give good sound.

It is important what you think is  good sound, but out of my experience, I say all mini systems above the 500 euros (Denon) are good value for your money.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 04, 2019, 01:38:58 AM


Here's a system -- looking like something if Mad Max were an audiophile -- that I was listening to in Greece a little while ago. (Use that picture to make your wife more appreciative of whatever setup you have.  ;D )

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on July 04, 2019, 08:29:34 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 04, 2019, 01:38:58 AM

Here's a system -- looking like something if Mad Max were an audiophile -- that I was listening to in Greece a little while ago. (Use that picture to make your wife more appreciative of whatever setup you have.  ;D )

Looks like a storage room rather than a listening room. How about the acoustic treatment? Investing a million dollars to your gear doesn't help if the room acoustics suck and I can almost hear all those frames resonating on the wall with the bass.  :-X
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on July 04, 2019, 08:51:19 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 04, 2019, 01:38:58 AM

Here's a system -- looking like something if Mad Max were an audiophile -- that I was listening to in Greece a little while ago. (Use that picture to make your wife more appreciative of whatever setup you have.  ;D )

Please upload an uncompressed picture so that we can try to guess the components.

.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on July 04, 2019, 04:32:50 PM
Quote from: Artem on July 03, 2019, 08:40:11 AM
Has anyone had any experience with Denon mini systems? I'm thinking about getting a smaller system with just two speakers, which could give good sound.

I would worry about compromises with the speakers.  Where is it going to be set up?  You might get better sound with powered speakers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 04, 2019, 10:22:09 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 04, 2019, 08:29:34 AM
Looks like a storage room rather than a listening room. How about the acoustic treatment? Investing a million dollars to your gear doesn't help if the room acoustics suck and I can almost hear all those frames resonating on the wall with the bass.  :-X

The room is chock full of acoustic treatment. On the walls, on the ceilings... just everywhere... except most of it not seen on the picture. The guy thinks room-treatment -- this is something I don't practice but one of the points I agree with him -- becomes the single most important factor once you reach a certain level of reproduction quality.

Quote from: Mandryka on July 04, 2019, 08:51:19 AM
Please upload an uncompressed picture so that we can try to guess the components.

Unfortunately, the picture isn't all that great to begin with, because I had to brighten it after the fact so that one sees much of anything. [I messed up the exposure on subsequent pix which came out weird.] But here's the best resolution possible: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-sOcbIWsAALqeo.jpg:large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-sOcbIWsAALqeo.jpg:large)

At the heart of the currently running system (there are several in the picture) is a self-built MusiCHI server (since refined and condensed into one box; here still the prototype in several casings).

Quote from: Daverz on July 04, 2019, 04:32:50 PM
I would worry about compromises with the speakers.  Where is it going to be set up?  You might get better sound with powered speakers.

The red speakers are his own construction. Yes, the way they stand next to the others -- a 40-some-year-old pair that he has brought back to life -- they presumably affect each other, but that's a current compromise owed to the reality/hassle of moving either pair at short notice.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on July 05, 2019, 12:54:50 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 04, 2019, 10:22:09 PM
The guy thinks room-treatment -- this is something I don't practice but one of the points I agree with him -- becomes the single most important factor once you reach a certain level of reproduction quality.
This is obviously true, but even if I have a dedicated listening room I wouldn't want to live like that.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on July 05, 2019, 02:07:38 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 04, 2019, 10:22:09 PM
The red speakers are his own construction. Yes, the way they stand next to the others -- a 40-some-year-old pair that he has brought back to life -- they presumably affect each other, but that's a current compromise owed to the reality/hassle of moving either pair at short notice.

My comment was in replay to Artem's question about a Denon mini-system.

But that other guy should just replace all that junk with a Bose.  I hear they are the best.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 05, 2019, 03:11:56 AM
Quote from: The new erato on July 05, 2019, 12:54:50 AM
This is obviously true, but even if I have a dedicated listening room I wouldn't want to live like that.

In his defense, that's not actually his living-room; it's a dedicated listening- and tinkering-room that's outside his apartment (but in the same building). But for shock-value, I think it's worth suppressing that factoid. :-)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on July 05, 2019, 05:56:49 AM
Do you guys have any opinions on LS3/5a clones and how they compare to Quad ESLs?

I am looking for some speakers for one of my offices, something that can be placed 1 foot from the front wall and listened to slightly further than arms length away.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on July 05, 2019, 08:54:08 AM
Quote from: staxomega on July 05, 2019, 05:56:49 AM
Do you guys have any opinions on LS3/5a clones and how they compare to Quad ESLs?

I am looking for some speakers for one of my offices, something that can be placed 1 foot from the front wall and listened to slightly further than arms length away.


I think that's too close for ESLs myself, I don't think you should treat them like a massive pair of headphones. I think LS3/5As are overpriced. If I were you I'd take a punt on JR 149s, which are good value and ideal for near field listening and cute. JR149s were the original LS3/5A, they have the same drivers etc. I think I read Jim Rogers compromised some of the design to meet some BBC requirements (maybe they wanted cuboids!)

If you go that route come back and talk with me about amps to go with them, as I've been doing quite a bit of experimenting with mine. Amps matter a lot.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on July 05, 2019, 08:58:43 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 04, 2019, 10:22:09 PM
The room is chock full of acoustic treatment. On the walls, on the ceilings... just everywhere... except most of it not seen on the picture. The guy thinks room-treatment -- this is something I don't practice but one of the points I agree with him -- becomes the single most important factor once you reach a certain level of reproduction quality.

Unfortunately, the picture isn't all that great to begin with, because I had to brighten it after the fact so that one sees much of anything. [I messed up the exposure on subsequent pix which came out weird.] But here's the best resolution possible: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-sOcbIWsAALqeo.jpg:large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-sOcbIWsAALqeo.jpg:large)

At the heart of the currently running system (there are several in the picture) is a self-built MusiCHI server (since refined and condensed into one box; here still the prototype in several casings).

The red speakers are his own construction. Yes, the way they stand next to the others -- a 40-some-year-old pair that he has brought back to life -- they presumably affect each other, but that's a current compromise owed to the reality/hassle of moving either pair at short notice.

Thanks for the pic.

You know, if I put all my stuff in one room close together it would look a lot like that picture.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on July 05, 2019, 09:46:09 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 05, 2019, 08:54:08 AM

I think that's too close for ESLs myself, I don't think you should treat them like a massive pair of headphones. I think LS3/5As are overpriced. If I were you I'd take a punt on JR 149s, which are good value and ideal for near field listening and cute. JR149s were the original LS3/5A, they have the same drivers etc. I think I read Jim Rogers compromised some of the design to meet some BBC requirements (maybe they wanted cuboids!)

If you go that route come back and talk with me about amps to go with them, as I've been doing quite a bit of experimenting with mine. Amps matter a lot.

The box speakers are for a different system, I have the ESL57s in another system. I was curious how they compare to the 57s to get a rough idea in my mind how they sound, particularly in the midband.

What about roughly 500 GBP for a kit of Falcon LS3/5a, does the value proposition sound a bit better? They sell the matched crossovers, genuine drivers and cabinets. Just requires putting them together which I could do. By one account on another they are the best sounding LS3/5a clones and the only ones making genuine drivers for them. Someone mentioned them having midrange as good as 57s which is what caused my ears to perk up. I am really new to British BBC style speakers so I will do some reading on those JR 149s.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on July 05, 2019, 09:59:02 AM
Quote from: staxomega on July 05, 2019, 09:46:09 AM
The box speakers are for a different system, I have the ESL57s in another system. I was curious how they compare to the 57s to get a rough idea in my mind how they sound, particularly in the midband.

What about roughly 500 GBP for a kit of Falcon LS3/5a, does the value proposition sound a bit better? They sell the matched crossovers, genuine drivers and cabinets. Just requires putting them together which I could do. By one account on another they are the best sounding LS3/5a clones and the only ones making genuine drivers for them. Someone mentioned them having midrange as good as 57s which is what caused my ears to perk up. I am really new to British BBC style speakers so I will do some reading on those JR 149s.

Are the components in the Falcon Acoustics "LS3/5A STYLE"  kits really the same as the components in the Falcon Loudspeakers "BBC LS3/5a"?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johnlewisgrant on July 05, 2019, 01:32:11 PM
Listened to countless speakers and supporting systems for my 12X20 LR.  The best I heard (for a space of those dimensions, not treated) were the Revel Salon 2.

That is, UNTIL I heard these sound engineering speakers (the amp is in the speaker and the only speaker cables it accepts are balanced XLR).  These aren't pretty (like the Salon 2... at least for some people), but they sound much more realistic (yes, more realistic than the Salon 2).   With a decently recorded source they are often more enjoyable (sonically) than a live concert.  They are the FOCAL "SM9" nearfield/midfield monitors.   

I have heard loudspeakers as good as these, but nothing any better.   They easily fill my LR with orchestral music, making it sound completely as if you were listening live in a concert hall.  Extraordinary speakers.  All music, big or small, sounds completely real in force and accuracy.  Uncanny speakers.   Balanced XLR connections and internal amp ensure that the speaker is completely silent.   ZERO hum.   

So far the only source I use for them is TIDAL (Master, where possible) and a Marantz CD player with balanced XLR out.... so completely silent.

I couldn't be happier.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on July 05, 2019, 03:23:26 PM
Quote from: johnlewisgrant on July 05, 2019, 01:32:11 PM
Listened to countless speakers and supporting systems for my 12X20 LR.  The best I heard (for a space of those dimensions, not treated) were the Revel Salon 2.

That is, UNTIL I heard these sound engineering speakers (the amp is in the speaker and the only speaker cables it accepts are balanced XLR).  These aren't pretty (like the Salon 2... at least for some people), but they sound much more realistic (yes, more realistic than the Salon 2).   With a decently recorded source they are often more enjoyable (sonically) than a live concert.  They are the FOCAL "SM9" nearfield/midfield monitors.   

I have heard loudspeakers as good as these, but nothing any better.   They easily fill my LR with orchestral music, making it sound completely as if you were listening live in a concert hall.  Extraordinary speakers.  All music, big or small, sounds completely real in force and accuracy.  Uncanny speakers.   Balanced XLR connections and internal amp ensure that the speaker is completely silent.   ZERO hum.   

So far the only source I use for them is TIDAL (Master, where possible) and a Marantz CD player with balanced XLR out.... so completely silent.

I couldn't be happier.

You saved a lot of money over Salon 2s and the needed electronics!  I wonder how having all the drivers mounted on a wide baffle like that would perform.  Would love to see a polar plot or spinorama measurements.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on July 05, 2019, 04:16:32 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 05, 2019, 09:59:02 AM
Are the components in the Falcon Acoustics "LS3/5A STYLE"  kits really the same as the components in the Falcon Loudspeakers "BBC LS3/5a"?

They are genuine, everything Falcon uses in their own LS3/5a- both drivers and matched crossovers. They do have a complete one stop click kit that uses Monacor drivers, but the one I am referring to requires you buying everything individually, then you can get the KEF/Falcon B110, their T27 tweeter, crossover and cabinets.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on July 05, 2019, 09:18:57 PM
Quote from: staxomega on July 05, 2019, 04:16:32 PM
They are genuine, everything Falcon uses in their own LS3/5a- both drivers and matched crossovers. They do have a complete one stop click kit that uses Monacor drivers, but the one I am referring to requires you buying everything individually, then you can get the KEF/Falcon B110, their T27 tweeter, crossover and cabinets.

Then £500 sounds like a good price, if you can do the assembly yourself (the cabs may be hard to make, BBC speaker cabinets are thin and have to be glued in a special way, the cabinet vibrations are an important aspect of the sound. They need to be on stands in a way which allows the cabs to vibrate.)

I don't have LS3/5A, I have bigger BBC monitors, Spendor SP1, the closest I get to LS3/5a is with my JR149s, which  are really speakers which are only excellent for low volume near-field listening, they really can't fill a room with sound very well. I suspect the same is true for LS3/5As

That's bound to be a major difference between ESLs and LS3/5As -- the panels of the ESLs can move so much more air.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Artem on July 06, 2019, 10:52:48 PM
Quote from: Daverz on July 04, 2019, 04:32:50 PM
I would worry about compromises with the speakers.  Where is it going to be set up?  You might get better sound with powered speakers.
I'd like to set it up at home. I'm looking for a minimalistic kind of look. Don't want to have big or too many speakers. Right now I have 5+1 system, but I'm getting the feeling that all those speakers aren't that necessary for listening to something like Morton Feldman, for example.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on July 07, 2019, 12:42:54 AM
Quote from: Artem on July 06, 2019, 10:52:48 PM
I'd like to set it up at home. I'm looking for a minimalistic kind of look. Don't want to have big or too many speakers. Right now I have 5+1 system, but I'm getting the feeling that all those speakers aren't that necessary for listening to something like Morton Feldman, for example.

One obvious recommendation to investigate is the Kef LS50

One that's been recommended to me, I haven't heard it but the guy who recommended it is someone who IMO has a good pair of ears, is the Revox Piccolo. The Piccolo system consists of two small speakers and a subwoofer, the crossover is in the sub, and the sub is easily hidden.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on July 07, 2019, 03:07:43 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 07, 2019, 12:42:54 AM
One obvious recommendation to investigate is the Kef LS50

And there's the powered version, the LS50W.  That would satisfy the minimalist requirement.  And KEF has a smaller powered speaker, the LSX, at half the price of the LS50W.

At a much lower price point, these look interesting for $600:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/vanatoo-transparent-one-encore-powered-loudspeaker-system

though I think they'd run out of gas on big stuff like Bruckner and Strauss.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on July 07, 2019, 11:31:13 PM
Quote from: aligreto on June 30, 2019, 02:30:44 AM
I have a friend who has a stacked 57's setup very similar to this....


(http://mniec.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/hqdusa_resize.jpg?w=594&h=413)


Admittedly he has a large house and a very tolerant wife. I forget what they are driven by, certainly low wattage valves, but they sound wonderful, particularly with jazz and acoustic music.

I was going to ask "Does his wife know about this room?" but I guess you answered the question.

In the case of people who have such extensive (and expensive) stereos, I keep wondering, Do they live in the absolute middle of nowhere? Because I would prefer to spend that money and attention on getting to live concerts.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 07, 2019, 11:34:03 PM
Quote from: Herman on July 07, 2019, 11:31:13 PM
I was going to ask "Does his wife know about this room?" but I guess you answered the question.

Where do you think the flowers come from. That's the compromising touch.  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on July 07, 2019, 11:36:41 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 07, 2019, 11:34:03 PM
Where do you think the flowers come from. That's the compromising touch.  ;D

"Honey, you can't take a picture and post it like this. People will think you're crazy!

"Let me at least add some flowers, I'll take 'em back after you're done."
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 08, 2019, 12:07:16 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 07, 2019, 11:36:41 PM
"Honey, you can't take a picture and post it like this. People will think you're crazy!

"Let me at least add some flowers, I'll take 'em back after you're done."

;D

In truth, it's a very beautiful room, actually, except for the low, panel-type ceiling and those hideous speakers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on July 08, 2019, 01:15:48 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 07, 2019, 11:31:13 PM
I was going to ask "Does his wife know about this room?" but I guess you answered the question.

In the case of people who have such extensive (and expensive) stereos, I keep wondering, Do they live in the absolute middle of nowhere? Because I would prefer to spend that money and attention on getting to live concerts.

Not everyone enjoys concerts.

It looks like all vintage gear.  It doesn't necessarily represent a huge expense.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on July 08, 2019, 06:59:49 AM
Quote from: Daverz on July 08, 2019, 01:15:48 AM
Not everyone enjoys concerts.

It looks like all vintage gear.  It doesn't necessarily represent a huge expense.

Indeed.  I enjoy concerts but don't get to go very often.  Two reasons: first, there are relatively few good performance in my immediate area, and secondly, the cost of very good performance is high for my personal budget, especially if I have to travel 2-3 hours to get to them.

OTOH, I listen to my stereo system 1-2 hours every evening.  Having great sound -- in my case -- greatly enhances my enjoyment.  BTW, the sound quality of the the particular recordings is a least as important as playback equipment;  unfortunately most recordings have mediocre sound quality, IMHO.

Audiophilia is a separate disease than music-loving.  Many music lovers are quite content with mediocre sound;  many audiophiles are content with playing a relatively small number of recordings again & again.  Also, the majority of audiophiles have little if any interest in classical music.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on July 08, 2019, 08:42:15 PM
The truth is that quite often when I'm at a concert I get angry because my music at home doesn't sound as good, and it would inspire me to try and improve the hifi. It's all the spacial cues that get lost in reproduction, the sense of the hall, the location of the musicians relative to each other.  Things have got much better in that respect since I got the Krell.

I am quite clear that I want to recreate a concert like sound. Most people don't want this, they want a smoother more processed studio sound at home.

Concerts have become so expensive!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on July 09, 2019, 05:21:12 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on July 08, 2019, 06:59:49 AM


Audiophilia is a separate disease than music-loving.  Many music lovers are quite content with mediocre sound;  many audiophiles are content with playing a relatively small number of recordings again & again.  Also, the majority of audiophiles have little if any interest in classical music.

100%. Also true that (trained) music lovers are content with mediocre sound - as the appreciation takes place between the ears not the ears themselves - if that makes sense. You did say "majority" so I guess that makes me a minority as I am an audiophile and it was a natural progression to classical music from jazz and other forms. After many years it is true now that the music is more important then what I play it on which is a good thing.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on July 09, 2019, 08:32:12 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 08, 2019, 08:42:15 PM
The truth is that quite often when I'm at a concert I get angry because my music at home doesn't sound as good, and it would inspire me to try and improve the hifi. It's all the spacial cues that get lost in reproduction, the sense of the hall, the location of the musicians relative to each other.  Things have got much better in that respect since I got the Krell.

I am quite clear that I want to recreate a concert like sound. Most people don't want this, they want a smoother more processed studio sound at home.

Concerts have become so expensive!

I'm not sure about "most" people, but certainly many audiophiles know concert hall sound and would prefer to hear it at home if they could get it.  I doubt that really convincing concert hall sound is consistently possible with playback equipment.

For that matter concert hall sound itself isn't just one thing;  it depends on the hall and your particular seat in it, plus other sometimes such and the placement of the performers.

IMHO, the closest one can get to concert hall is a high-quality multichannel system.  Such system, though, are expensive and difficult to set up in the average home setting.  And the same is true for multichannel as it is for stereo:  most recordings are mediocre.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on July 09, 2019, 08:36:12 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 07, 2019, 11:31:13 PM

(http://mniec.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/hqdusa_resize.jpg?w=594&h=413)

In the case of people who have such extensive (and expensive) stereos, I keep wondering, Do they live in the absolute middle of nowhere? Because I would prefer to spend that money and attention on getting to live concerts.

In this particular case, yes he does.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on July 09, 2019, 09:46:42 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on July 09, 2019, 08:32:12 AM
I'm not sure about "most" people, but certainly many audiophiles know concert hall sound and would prefer to hear it at home if they could get it.  I doubt that really convincing concert hall sound is consistently possible with playback equipment.

For that matter concert hall sound itself isn't just one thing;  it depends on the hall and your particular seat in it, plus other sometimes such and the placement of the performers.

IMHO, the closest one can get to concert hall is a high-quality multichannel system.  Such system, though, are expensive and difficult to set up in the average home setting.  And the same is true for multichannel as it is for stereo:  most recordings are mediocre.

One thing I will say is that the Krell KSA50 with Spendor SP1s and a Theta DAC gave a sense of space which is astonishingly real. Of course you need a good input to start with. The amp is a big contributor here.

I've heard people say a few times that the sound of live music is splashy compared with a well engineered studio recording, which irons out the asperities of real sound, and which they prefer.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on July 09, 2019, 03:40:09 PM
Quote from: Irons on July 09, 2019, 05:21:12 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on July 08, 2019, 06:59:49 AM
Audiophilia is a separate disease than music-loving.  Many music lovers are quite content with mediocre sound;  many audiophiles are content with playing a relatively small number of recordings again & again.  Also, the majority of audiophiles have little if any interest in classical music.

100%. Also true that (trained) music lovers are content with mediocre sound - as the appreciation takes place between the ears not the ears themselves - if that makes sense. You did say "majority" so I guess that makes me a minority as I am an audiophile and it was a natural progression to classical music from jazz and other forms. After many years it is true now that the music is more important then what I play it on which is a good thing.

I'm not a musician nor have any serious musical train, I'm just a listener.  Maybe a consequence of that is that I really enjoy great sound.  Frankly I'd rather have a good performance and great sound than great performance and mediocre sound -- philistine that I am.  ;D

Classical musical-loving audiophiles are, in my observation, a minority though a substantial one.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on July 09, 2019, 03:59:37 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 09, 2019, 09:46:42 AM
One thing I will say is that the Krell KSA50 with Spendor SP1s and a Theta DAC gave a sense of space which is astonishingly real. Of course you need a good input to start with. The amp is a big contributor here.

I've heard people say a few times that the sound of live music is splashy compared with a well engineered studio recording, which irons out the asperities of real sound, and which they prefer.

It wouldn't surprise me that the Krell, Spendor, Theta combo sounds great.  I would put my own current setup against it a expect a similar result.

But neither combination is going to produce terrific sound with the average recording.  As you suggest, the typical recording is mediocre:  the garbage in - garbage out principle applies.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on July 09, 2019, 10:00:13 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on July 09, 2019, 03:59:37 PM

But neither combination is going to produce terrific sound with the average recording.  As you suggest, the typical recording is mediocre:  the garbage in - garbage out principle applies.

Sure, this is right.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 10, 2019, 09:25:00 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on July 08, 2019, 06:59:49 AM
Audiophilia is a separate disease than music-loving.  Many music lovers are quite content with mediocre sound;  many audiophiles are content with playing a relatively small number of recordings again & again.  Also, the majority of audiophiles have little if any interest in classical music.

Interesting discussion. My own observations:

Lots of classical music listeners are not interested in collecting recordings. I run into people who listen on the radio, go to concerts, say "I love X composer," but their collection might run to 5-10 CDs.

Musicians I've known are usually not audiophiles. Whether because they spend so much time around live music that they don't care enough about home listening to invest in it, or they don't think it's worth the expense.

Conversely, audiophiles I've known often are more interested in sound than music. One audiophile I knew said the only reason he went to concerts was "to get the reference for great stereo sound." (They seem to use the word "reference" a lot.)

Quote from: Mandryka on July 08, 2019, 08:42:15 PM
Concerts have become so expensive!

That is a problem. I can rarely justify going to them nowadays, unless I can get some kind of discount, or it's free in the first place.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on July 10, 2019, 02:23:39 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 05, 2019, 09:18:57 PM
Then £500 sounds like a good price, if you can do the assembly yourself (the cabs may be hard to make, BBC speaker cabinets are thin and have to be glued in a special way, the cabinet vibrations are an important aspect of the sound. They need to be on stands in a way which allows the cabs to vibrate.)

I don't have LS3/5A, I have bigger BBC monitors, Spendor SP1, the closest I get to LS3/5a is with my JR149s, which  are really speakers which are only excellent for low volume near-field listening, they really can't fill a room with sound very well. I suspect the same is true for LS3/5As

That's bound to be a major difference between ESLs and LS3/5As -- the panels of the ESLs can move so much more air.

Thanks, I will update if I decide to go through with it.

Quote from: Fëanor on July 09, 2019, 08:32:12 AM
I'm not sure about "most" people, but certainly many audiophiles know concert hall sound and would prefer to hear it at home if they could get it.  I doubt that really convincing concert hall sound is consistently possible with playback equipment.

For that matter concert hall sound itself isn't just one thing;  it depends on the hall and your particular seat in it, plus other sometimes such and the placement of the performers.

IMHO, the closest one can get to concert hall is a high-quality multichannel system.  Such system, though, are expensive and difficult to set up in the average home setting.  And the same is true for multichannel as it is for stereo:  most recordings are mediocre.

I think it is possible to get close to reproducing concert hall sound but it will never get you all the way there. For my ears the best I have heard are constant directivity speakers that the likes of Floyd Toole and Earl Geddes have published papers on combined with high sensitivity. The speakers that got the closest there in terms of tone, detail, dynamic range and that "live feeling" were a huge pair of custom built horns, with a midbass horn driver. I estimate sensitivity of that system somewhere around 102-105 db/w.

The system was not entirely problem free, but from what I could pick up much was due to the complete untreated and live room (cement floors, really exacerbating floor bounce).

(https://i.imgur.com/3xX03LZ.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 11, 2019, 02:37:10 AM
For a while I was looking at the picture, thinking: I don't see the speakers!  ;D


Eventually I realized I was ONLY seeing speakers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on July 11, 2019, 08:16:52 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 11, 2019, 02:37:10 AM
For a while I was looking at the picture, thinking: I don't see the speakers!  ;D


Eventually I realized I was ONLY seeing speakers.

Haha ... Yes, they are monsters.  Such at those are out of the question for me.

I think "constant directivity" is a valid concept, though.

(https://i.imgur.com/3xX03LZ.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on July 11, 2019, 08:31:02 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 10, 2019, 09:25:00 AM
Interesting discussion. My own observations:

Lots of classical music listeners are not interested in collecting recordings. I run into people who listen on the radio, go to concerts, say "I love X composer," but their collection might run to 5-10 CDs.

Musicians I've known are usually not audiophiles. Whether because they spend so much time around live music that they don't care enough about home listening to invest in it, or they don't think it's worth the expense.

Conversely, audiophiles I've known often are more interested in sound than music. One audiophile I knew said the only reason he went to concerts was "to get the reference for great stereo sound." (They seem to use the word "reference" a lot.)

That is a problem. I can rarely justify going to them nowadays, unless I can get some kind of discount, or it's free in the first place.

As I explained above, I'd like to go to more concerts by am constrain there by both inconvenience and cost.  So I'm closer to the audiophile type you describe than any others

I do have a least a middle-sized collection, though.  My collection is constrained by the price of SD/SACDs and by the fact that I buy want to listen to and don't just collect for the sake of collecting.

A lot of audiophiles I know, (most of whom are music lovers though not so much of Classical), are into high-resolution streaming services such as 'Tidal' or 'Qobuz'.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on July 11, 2019, 09:11:40 AM
Right well, I love classical music, I am heavily into high end equipment, which I have, because I do not want to approach how it sounds in any given concert hall, but I want to treat my ears to the best sound possible. I do not collect music for collecting sake, but I buy what I want to hear.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on July 11, 2019, 09:55:31 AM
Interesting discussion. Personally I don't think recorded music ever 1) equals the rounded out sound picture of a live concert, with the overtones and all the stuff a microphone just doesn't capture 2) the visual effect of being able to see who does what, which makes one hear better what's going on in the composition 3) the excitement of never knowing for sure what's going to happen, or rather how it's going to happen, which makes the listener somehow more a part of the music than when he's listening to the same cd he or she's heard fifty times before.

I don't think I have ever listened to a full 75 minute cd in my life. Probably I just have a vinyl-one-side attention span. At home one just gets up and starts doing something and next thing I know the music has been switched off (by me). This never happens during a concert, and not just because one isn't supposed to get up and go to the john during a symphony, but also because one is more interested.

That being said, I agree with Mandryka that concerts have become too expensive, particularly first rate orchestral concerts  -  which probably means that my income hasn't grown at the same rate as bankers' incomes and lawyers'. On the other hand, I still like to go to chamber music concerts, that have not grown as expensive and (is there a correlation?) I like the audience better, relaxed, casual and engaged with the music.

The pros of listening to recorded music are obvious. You can stay at home, and the recorded reertoire is vast, massive and unlimited. I don't think I have ever encountered a Martinu string quartet in live performance, for instance.

As long as I can remember I have had a pretty nice Naim set, which is slowly deteriorating (I'm guessing), and sometimes I wonder what I'll do when I start noticing. (See the part above about the bankers and lawyers.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 11, 2019, 11:34:44 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 11, 2019, 09:55:31 AM
Interesting discussion. Personally I don't think recorded music ever 1) equals the rounded out sound picture of a live concert, with the overtones and all the stuff a microphone just doesn't capture 2) the visual effect of being able to see who does what, which makes one hear better what's going on in the composition 3) the excitement of never knowing for sure what's going to happen, or rather how it's going to happen, which makes the listener somehow more a part of the music than when he's listening to the same cd he or she's heard fifty times before.

This is why predictions about recorded music replacing live, film replacing theatre etc. were so inaccurate and naïve. They're different kinds of experiences altogether. Live music is essentially being created right in front of you, regardless of whether it's already written down on paper or not.

The virtual never completely drives out the real, it just squeezes it a bit.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on July 12, 2019, 12:45:14 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 11, 2019, 09:55:31 AM
As long as I can remember I have had a pretty nice Naim set, which is slowly deteriorating (I'm guessing),

Not necessarily, and if it does present problems you'll easily find someone to repair it I would have thought.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 12, 2019, 11:15:01 PM
Perhaps I'm lucky in that sense (or desentitized) but I've been to so many concerts, I (think/seem to) hear fewer and fewer differences between reproduction and the real thing. It's as if my brain just filled in the rest. Only when I'm back at a particularly powerful concert does my brain go: "Bing! Oh, this is different, innit!?"
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on July 13, 2019, 05:20:33 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on July 11, 2019, 08:16:52 AM

I think "constant directivity" is a valid concept, though.

I think it really works well for music that needs neutrality and uncolored sound, ie music that is acoustic in nature and doesn't need additional help.

Toole's presentation on them here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM

After reading his book, various AES papers then hearing these style of speakers at owner's homes it really changed my perception of great sound.

Edit: he uses Revel Salon Ultima 2 speakers and is nearly entirely a classical music listener.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on July 13, 2019, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: Herman on July 11, 2019, 09:55:31 AM
I don't think I have ever listened to a full 75 minute cd in my life.

Wow. Listening to full 70-80 minute CDs is nothing for me. If I can watch 2 hour movies on Blu-ray, CDs are easy.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on July 14, 2019, 03:26:58 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 13, 2019, 05:22:22 PM
Wow. Listening to full 70-80 minute CDs is nothing for me. If I can watch 2 hour movies on Blu-ray, CDs are easy.

Different blokes. I'm primarily a book reader. Watching movies on DVD has the advantage I can watch them in thirty-minute instalments.

But yeah, I'm bad. When I recently listened to something as basic as LvB 9 I break it down in Mvt 1 and later Mvts2, 3 and 4.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on July 14, 2019, 10:32:25 AM
Quote from: staxomega on July 13, 2019, 05:20:33 AM
I think it really works well for music that needs neutrality and uncolored sound, ie music that is acoustic in nature and doesn't need additional help.

Toole's presentation on them here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM

After reading his book, various AES papers then hearing these style of speakers at owner's homes it really changed my perception of great sound.

Edit: he uses Revel Salon Ultima 2 speakers and is nearly entirely a classical music listener.

Floyd Toole is famous for his scientific research on what makes good loudspeaker design.  Loudspeakers designed to closely adhere to his principles typically sound great.  Revel speakers are an example.

Revel Audio is a brand of Harman International, (which is owned today by Samsung), for which Toole was a senior consultant for a time.  Harmon owns many brands including speaker brands Infinity, JBL, and Revel.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 15, 2019, 08:07:14 AM
Ah, finally got a picture of part of my system now, with the two new babies - - the DAC and the blu-Ray player.

The stone on the DAC is just that, a stone. A memory of a trip. It does zero to the depth of the soundstage, it does not slightly enhance the bass and it does not make the upper range a little more crisp.  :P

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on July 15, 2019, 11:59:42 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 15, 2019, 08:07:14 AM
The stone on the DAC is just that, a stone. A memory of a trip. It does zero to the depth of the soundstage, it does not slightly enhance the bass and it does not make the upper range a little more crisp.  :P

You clearly have cloth ears...  ;)

I sense immediate depth increase...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on July 16, 2019, 03:42:23 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 14, 2019, 03:26:58 AM
Different blokes. I'm primarily a book reader. Watching movies on DVD has the advantage I can watch them in thirty-minute instalments.

But yeah, I'm bad. When I recently listened to something as basic as LvB 9 I break it down in Mvt 1 and later Mvts2, 3 and 4.

You really lack attention span. I can do for hours things I enjoy. If it's something repulsive (work) then I need have breaks every 30 minutes or so. How long can you read a book in one go?

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on July 17, 2019, 10:53:10 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 16, 2019, 03:42:23 AM
You really lack attention span.

Maybe I do. On the other hand, listening to music via hifi is inherently artificial, which is why I find it hard to sit there for eighty minutes.

In my view classical music is intended to be enjoyed live, and I have no problem listening to three string quartets in a program, live.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on July 20, 2019, 04:24:46 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 17, 2019, 10:53:10 AM
Maybe I do. On the other hand, listening to music via hifi is inherently artificial, which is why I find it hard to sit there for eighty minutes.

In my view classical music is intended to be enjoyed live, and I have no problem listening to three string quartets in a program, live.

I'm much the same as you, but I don't think with me it's a question of short attention span. It's that I want to reflect on what I've experienced, absorb it. 


With reading it shows up too -- I'll read a chapter at most, in some authors just two or three pages, then have a break. It's not a problem, you get to the end eventually. I used to think there were two types of books: savouring books and wolfing it down books.

In a concert, I very often just don't want to go back after the interval, I'd much rather stay in the bar. Two string quartets does me fine.

Early music is very good for people like me, the pieces are short, they give you lots to engage with intellectually and emotionally, concerts tend to be shorter too.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on August 15, 2019, 06:51:33 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 28, 2019, 06:29:01 AM
Bass. Although Quad are best known for mid-range it is deeper bass that is most noticeable.

I am most impressed with the build quality of this deck. It did cross my mind to investigate the sister 99 Pre-amp which has a phono input for both MC and MM. I presently have an all valve/tube based system and my present Pre sounds great but is, I must admit, an ugly piece of kit (two boxes). The sleeker lines of the Quad would go down very well with the better half. Would a transistor Pre work with a valve Power I wonder?

I am about to find out! After hanging around eBay for the last month or so the matching Pre eventually turned up for auction which I managed to win. I haven't auditioned yet spending today hooking it up. It can be connected in the normal way with RCA plugs or with "Quadlink bus cable" between other 99 components. This resembles a scart lead. After hooking up I was perplexed as no connection between the two components. After trying a different configuration I was even worse off as the CD player had died on me. Using the tried and tested remedy of turning everything on and off they seem now to be in sync.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on August 15, 2019, 08:05:56 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 15, 2019, 06:51:33 AM
I am about to find out! After hanging around eBay for the last month or so the matching Pre eventually turned up for auction which I managed to win. I haven't auditioned yet spending today hooking it up. It can be connected in the normal way with RCA plugs or with "Quadlink bus cable" between other 99 components. This resembles a scart lead. After hooking up I was perplexed as no connection between the two components. After trying a different configuration I was even worse off as the CD player had died on me. Using the tried and tested remedy of turning everything on and off they seem now to be in sync.

Best of luck with the setup and subsequent listening sessions.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on August 15, 2019, 11:42:59 PM
Quote from: aligreto on August 15, 2019, 08:05:56 AM
Best of luck with the setup and subsequent listening sessions.

Cheers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on August 16, 2019, 08:16:17 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 15, 2019, 11:42:59 PM
Cheers.

Reports are expected, in good time.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on August 16, 2019, 11:55:52 PM
Quote from: aligreto on August 16, 2019, 08:16:17 AM
Reports are expected, in good time.

Don't encourage me, I won't stop! :-X
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on August 17, 2019, 05:28:22 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 16, 2019, 11:55:52 PM
Don't encourage me, I won't stop! :-X

:laugh:
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on August 26, 2019, 08:18:27 PM
I've just bought my first valve amp, a Radford STA25 Mk 3. My first foray into valves - any advice appreciated.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: springrite on August 26, 2019, 08:37:41 PM
Well, after completely remodeling my apartment, I bought a new audio system as well, AUDIOLAB 8300XP 140W, 8300CDQ CD Player, and KEF R7 speakers.

That should keep me happy for a while.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on August 27, 2019, 07:22:44 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 26, 2019, 08:18:27 PM
I've just bought my first valve amp, a Radford STA25 Mk 3. My first foray into valves - any advice appreciated.

Congratulations and I hope that it serves you well. Very simply valves tend to yield maximum performance when at optimum temperature. I always switch on my pre and power amps between 20 and 30 minutes before playing anything through them.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on August 27, 2019, 12:41:12 PM
Quote from: aligreto on August 27, 2019, 07:22:44 AM
Congratulations and I hope that it serves you well. Very simply valves tend to yield maximum performance when at optimum temperature. I always switch on my pre and power amps between 20 and 30 minutes before playing anything through them.

Yes well this is a problem. In the past I've just left my amps on all the time. Then I got a Krell Class A and all that stopped for obvious reasons, and so far I'm being good about turning it off when not in use (the threat of an enormous electricity bill is encouraging my good behaviour.)

Plato was keen on saying to people γνῶθι σεαυτόν, know yourself! Well I know myself well enough to be sure that I won't be disciplined enough to turn it on for 20 minutes before I want to listen to music!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on August 27, 2019, 01:12:06 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 27, 2019, 12:41:12 PM
Yes well this is a problem. In the past I've just left my amps on all the time. Then I got a Krell Class A and all that stopped for obvious reasons, and so far I'm being good about turning it off when not in use (the threat of an enormous electricity bill is encouraging my good behaviour.)

Plato was keen on saying to people γνῶθι σεαυτόν, know yourself! Well I know myself well enough to be sure that I won't be disciplined enough to turn it on for 20 minutes before I want to listen to music!

Well, looking on the positive side of things, if you do decide to leave it on all of the time the compensation for enormously high electricity bills will be a constantly warm room.  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on August 27, 2019, 01:16:25 PM
Quote from: springrite on August 26, 2019, 08:37:41 PM
Well, after completely remodeling my apartment, I bought a new audio system as well, AUDIOLAB 8300XP 140W, 8300CDQ CD Player, and KEF R7 speakers.

That should keep me happy for a while.  :)

Enjoy your new equipment in your newly redecorated apartment  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 29, 2019, 02:12:33 PM
Quote from: Daverz on June 19, 2019, 05:23:05 AM
And I just ordered a pair of these, which have gotten a lot of hype lately:

(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5abb8b4ee2ccd145df988d1a/5abb9011758d462671bba72a/5c51c9b07924e871fa0ed90b/1548863926545/S400-white-1.jpg?format=1500w)

Buchardt S400 speakers.  Free shipping and free return within 30 days.

My Buchardts finally came last week, and I've been breaking them in.  I'd have to say that they live up to the hype.  Excellent imaging, neutral frequency response with no frequency range calling attention to itself, airy sounding, and excellent bass (not just "good for their size"), with only the bottom octave missing.  In a 2nd floor condo, having to dial back the low bass is more of a pain than not having much there to begin with.  I might try a subwoofer later.

I was a bit worried since none of the reviews mentioned how they did with big orchestral works, but I've tested them with numerous "hi rez" orchestral recordings (e.g. Bruckner and Shostakovich) and they do a great job with large scale and high dynamic range music.

I did not opt for Buchardt's own stands and got some cheap ones on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KRVDSB2
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on August 30, 2019, 06:45:47 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 26, 2019, 08:18:27 PM
I've just bought my first valve amp, a Radford STA25 Mk 3. My first foray into valves - any advice appreciated.

Bare in mind that valves at some time need to be replaced. I have been told they can blow as a light bulb which sounds pretty worrying but I have not experienced this, thankfully. Valves can after time become noisy though, which can be heard placing an ear up to a loudspeaker or through headphones. I always purchase a new set when this occurs as they are on the way out. I have dealt with an excellent and reliable supplier based in the UK for some time - there are a few out there not so good - if of use to you I would happily PM you contact details.     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on August 30, 2019, 08:23:48 AM
Quote from: Daverz on August 29, 2019, 02:12:33 PM

(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5abb8b4ee2ccd145df988d1a/5abb9011758d462671bba72a/5c51c9b07924e871fa0ed90b/1548863926545/S400-white-1.jpg?format=1500w)

My Buchardts finally came last week, and I've been breaking them in.  I'd have to say that they live up to the hype.  Excellent imaging, neutral frequency response with no frequency range calling attention to itself, airy sounding, and excellent bass (not just "good for their size"), with only the bottom octave missing.  In a 2nd floor condo, having to dial back the low bass is more of a pain than not having much there to begin with.  I might try a subwoofer later.

I was a bit worried since none of the reviews mentioned how they did with big orchestral works, but I've tested them with numerous "hi rez" orchestral recordings (e.g. Bruckner and Shostakovich) and they do a great job with large scale and high dynamic range music.

I did not opt for Buchardt's own stands and got some cheap ones on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KRVDSB2

That reads like they sound great. Happy listening and enjoy you new purchase Dave.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 30, 2019, 09:30:40 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 30, 2019, 06:45:47 AM
Bare in mind that valves at some time need to be replaced. I have been told they can blow as a light bulb which sounds pretty worrying but I have not experienced this

When I was still using KT-90s, they could go out with a spectacular purple light display.  A KT-120 died silently, but usually they just get dull sounding after a couple years .  I had one KT-88 that seemed to light up fine, but wouldn't bias.

I also had a monster solid-state amp that blew a fuse with a loud bang.  For some reason, that behemoth scared me more than my tube amps ever have.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 30, 2019, 09:54:40 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 27, 2019, 12:41:12 PM
Yes well this is a problem. In the past I've just left my amps on all the time. Then I got a Krell Class A and all that stopped for obvious reasons, and so far I'm being good about turning it off when not in use (the threat of an enormous electricity bill is encouraging my good behaviour.)

Plato was keen on saying to people γνῶθι σεαυτόν, know yourself! Well I know myself well enough to be sure that I won't be disciplined enough to turn it on for 20 minutes before I want to listen to music!

Yes, I understand the problem exactly.  My Pass Labs X150.5 needs about 40 minutes to warm up to sound its best, but leaving it on all the time seems wrong given that is soaks up 200 watts at idle.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on September 01, 2019, 02:09:35 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 30, 2019, 06:45:47 AM
Bare in mind that valves at some time need to be replaced. I have been told they can blow as a light bulb which sounds pretty worrying but I have not experienced this, thankfully. Valves can after time become noisy though, which can be heard placing an ear up to a loudspeaker or through headphones. I always purchase a new set when this occurs as they are on the way out. I have dealt with an excellent and reliable supplier based in the UK for some time - there are a few out there not so good - if of use to you I would happily PM you contact details.   

It is arriving today so I'm excited. I'm looking forward to exploring the mysterious, and no doubt expensive, world of what seems to be known as tube rolling. I'm also looking forward to turning the lights down and staring at the warm orange glow.

I had lunch last week with a friend of mine who was a prof of electronics at the OU -- he's long retired. Anyway, he thinks I'm completely mad for buying anything with tubes, that transistors are just an improvement in every way. But a good amp is a question of design, there are some good transistor amps and some good valve amps, that's just the way it seems to be.


My experience with the Krell KSA50 has shown me how important an amp can be, that a great amp is quite a thing.

Quote from: Irons on August 30, 2019, 06:45:47 AM
I have dealt with an excellent and reliable supplier based in the UK for some time - there are a few out there not so good - if of use to you I would happily PM you contact details.   

Yes please!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Moonfish on September 08, 2019, 02:45:44 PM
Hmm, my old receiver is starting to falter. Any glorious recommendations for a two-channel receiver in the realm below $2,000? It will solely be devoted to listening to music (so not a home theater).  I have been out of the loop too long so I have no idea of what is on the market.  Thoughts?

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 08, 2019, 03:25:35 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on September 08, 2019, 02:45:44 PM
Hmm, my old receiver is starting to falter. Any glorious recommendations for a two-channel receiver in the realm below $2,000? It will solely be devoted to listening to music (so not a home theater).  I have been out of the loop too long so I have no idea of what is on the market.  Thoughts?


Receiver:

Outlaw Audio RR2160

Any Marantz or Yamaha or Integra products.  (Check out Crutchfield.)

I have an el cheapo Insignia NS-STR514 in my garage system driving some Joseph Audio RM22Si Signatures, and it works just fine.  The tuner section is actually better than some old, dedicated tuners.

For $2K, I recommend going with a cheap tuner (Yamaha ~$250; NAD ~$450) and spending the rest on an integrated amplifier.  If you don't want a tuner, you have a wider array of options for an integrated.  Yamaha, Marantz, NAD, Arcam, Rega, Schiit, Rogue Audio, Hegel.   Then there's used, which brings Parasound, Exposure, maybe Naim, and others into the picture.  The biggest NAD Class AB integrated you can find would be a great place to start.  My daughter has my old C372, and it has practically unlimited power for most uses and sounds excellent.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on September 10, 2019, 01:24:57 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 26, 2019, 08:18:27 PM
I've just bought my first valve amp, a Radford STA25 Mk 3. My first foray into valves - any advice appreciated.

     Get a backup EF86. Also look for a Blackburn Mullard GZ34, an f32 like this:

     (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/kmAAAOSwvSRdd9PB/s-l1600.jpg)

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on September 27, 2019, 07:22:12 AM
I ordered a new DAC, the Atoll 300, to be implemented into my secondary system. Any insightful comments?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on September 27, 2019, 10:04:31 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on September 27, 2019, 07:22:12 AM
I ordered a new DAC, the Atoll 300, to be implemented into my secondary system. Any insightful comments?

Do DACs really make much of a difference?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on September 27, 2019, 10:08:25 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 27, 2019, 10:04:31 AM
Do DACs really make much of a difference?

Yes, they actually do, otherwise I would not buy it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 27, 2019, 11:50:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 27, 2019, 10:04:31 AM
Do DACs really make much of a difference?

In theory they shouldn't, but...

...somehow DACs seem to make some difference. I believe it's their analog output stage that makes most difference, but also the overal linearity matters. I have selectable reconstuction filter in my CD player and with headphones I can hear tiny differences in stereo image witdh with different filters. Digital technology has evolved so much (jitter is generally well below what human can hear) that nowadays practically any DAC gives practically "transparent" sound, but if you have extra money to burn, you can have "finesse" in your transparent sound by selecting a pricier model.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on September 27, 2019, 12:59:13 PM
I have three DACs, an American one (Theta), a British one (Deltec), a Canadian one (Museatex) I only play Red Book.

The problem I have is knowing the effect they're having. I'm sure, as 71db says, the analogue stage makes a difference, but how much of a difference, is not clear to me. And I'm not at all clear what the effect of the chip is.

Having said that when I first got the Theta and the Museatex I was really pleased. Maybe I've come to take them for granted. I never felt my Deltec DAC was special, it's called Bigger Bit.

Friends of mine like the idea of No Oversampling, they  say it makes for a more « valve like » sound. I don't know.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on September 27, 2019, 01:07:14 PM
Quote from: drogulus on September 10, 2019, 01:24:57 PM
     Get a backup EF86. Also look for a Blackburn Mullard GZ34, an f32 like this:

     (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/kmAAAOSwvSRdd9PB/s-l1600.jpg)

   

This acquisition was problematic. It arrived, it worked beautifully for two hours, and it promptly exploded very dramatically.

Taken back by the vendor, who returned it after a week and it has worked with no problem since.

I've just sent it to a tech to look over, check the bias, replace any dodgy caps, do a sort of MOT and Service on it. It sounds very very musical, involving and warm. I've found myself enjoying music which I've never enjoyed before because of it.

My tech said that the explosion was probably real bad luck, that in truth a capacitor can explode at any time, though it is, thankfully, very rare.

I was using it with my JR 149s. The result wasn't quite as real as the combination of the Krell KSA50 and my Spendors. But that may have as much to do with the speakers as the amps (or the DACs? - you see how easy it is to overlook them!) When it comes back I'll swap around and compare and contrast.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on September 27, 2019, 03:40:02 PM

     I'm not an audiophile, I'm familiar with these tubes because I'm a guitar/bass player and I have amps that use them, 2 of them use the EF86, one uses a different pentode, and 3 of them use the GZ34 rectifier.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on September 27, 2019, 04:37:46 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 27, 2019, 10:04:31 AM
Do DACs really make much of a difference?

Yeah, a $90 Topping D10 does a massively better job at transparently reproducing a digital recording than a $13k Totaldac d1-six DAC.

Take a look at the measurements at Audio Science Review:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-totaldac-d1-six-dac.8192/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-topping-d10-dac.2470/

If you need more transparency, take a look at Sabaj D5, which has balanced outputs and a SINAD (signal above noise and distortion) of 119 dB. 

I have compared the D10 to my Auralic Vega.  They use the same DAC chip (ES9018).  I'm hard pressed to hear any difference except the obviously different volume level.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 05:54:18 AM
Quote from: drogulus on September 27, 2019, 03:40:02 PM
     I'm not an audiophile, I'm familiar with these tubes because I'm a guitar/bass player and I have amps that use them, 2 of them use the EF86, one uses a different pentode, and 3 of them use the GZ34 rectifier.

I kind of guessed that you know about guitar amps.

Is there a good thing to read on tubes, not technical, something which is aimed at people like me, which will explain the different types and maybe discuss their sound a bit, what their functions are in the amp etc.?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 05:55:41 AM
Quote from: Daverz on September 27, 2019, 04:37:46 PM
Yeah, a $90 Topping D10 does a massively better job at transparently reproducing a digital recording than a $13k Totaldac d1-six DAC.



So the question then is whether the $13K dac has any audio virtues which the $90 dac lacks.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on September 28, 2019, 06:16:11 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 05:54:18 AM

Is there a good thing to read on tubes, not technical, something which is aimed at people like me, which will explain the different types and maybe discuss their sound a bit, what their functions are in the amp etc.?

   You have to look up things like how the a particular tube type is used in an audio circuit. The relevant info is dispersed all over the place, like tube shootouts comparing current production tubes with ones made decades ago. One amp I have uses an EF86/12AU7 driver/inverter because nobody makes a 7199 any more. We decided on this because I looked up what Dynaco users were doing to replace their 7199s.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on September 28, 2019, 06:19:47 AM
Well the Atoll DAC 300 I ordered cost 2500,- euro's and has raving reviews on the internet. After listening to a demo I was boiled over. I have in my secondary system an Atoll amp, Avalon wall mounted speakers, Nordost Red Dawn loudspeaker cables, and  Nordost Valhalla interlinks, and power cables made ny Nordost Also an oppo Bluray player, and a Technics DAC which I have now replaced. With the new DAC the sound stage is lifted up a whole new level. Lots of detailing, open stage, a slam bass, good vocals, low/mid/high balance almost perfect.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 06:47:17 AM
How's the bass on the wall mounted speakers, Harry? What do they do to stop it being too boomy?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on September 28, 2019, 06:51:59 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 06:47:17 AM
How's the bass on the wall mounted speakers, Harry? What do they do to stop it being too boomy?

Well the Avalons coupled with the Atoll set up keep everything as tight as a snare drum, no boominess, no resonance, all in balance. It's just the total set up. I must add that there is a KEF subwoofer added to the system, that makes it even better. This bass hits your stomach, but never too much.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 06:57:21 AM
That's interesting. I tried my Rogers JR149s on wall brackets, Jim Rogers used to sell brackets for them, but the bass was boomy, it was as if they needed 30cm of space behind them. But I never tried them like that with a good amp, the Krell has a reputation for tight bass, so that may well have sorted out the problem.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on September 28, 2019, 07:01:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 06:57:21 AM
That's interesting. I tried my Rogers JR149s on wall brackets, Jim Rogers used to sell brackets for them, but the bass was boomy, it was as if they needed 30cm of space behind them. But I never tried them like that with a good amp, the Krell has a reputation for tight bass, so that may well have sorted out the problem.

Well what I can say that these Avalons were meant to be build in the wall, which I did. I only know of Dali building also a speaker the same way, and I heard it, but it was far below these Avalons I have.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 28, 2019, 07:52:03 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on September 28, 2019, 06:19:47 AM
Well the Atoll DAC 300 I ordered cost 2500,- euro's

One month salary for many before taxes... ...and after taxes most of it is going to rather mandatory things like rent, food, clothes, electric bills, etc. but I'm glad you have such money to invest on "secondary system DAC".
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on September 28, 2019, 09:16:06 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 28, 2019, 07:52:03 AM
One month salary for many before taxes... ...and after taxes most of it is going to rather mandatory things like rent, food, clothes, electric bills, etc. but I'm glad you have such money to invest on "secondary system DAC".

I realized this too my friend, but be aware that I give most of my equipment I replace too others that are not so fortunate.
Maybe you remember that I gave thousands of CD'S away to GMG members all over the world, for no money at all, I even paid the postage myself.
There should be a thread that covers that all.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 28, 2019, 09:54:20 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on September 28, 2019, 09:16:06 AM
I realized this too my friend, but be aware that I give most of my equipment I replace too others that are not so fortunate.
Maybe you remember that I gave thousands of CD'S away to GMG members all over the world, for no money at all, I even paid the postage myself.
There should be a thread that covers that all.

Harry, your generosity and kindness is not questioned in any way.
Just commenting on the casuality of mentioning of having ordered a 2500 euro DAC for your second system.
Masses don't do that, not even for their prime system. ;D

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on September 28, 2019, 11:04:25 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 05:55:41 AM
So the question then is whether the $13K dac has any audio virtues which the $90 dac lacks.

Once you've got noise and distortion below a certain level at the required output voltage, and you have a flat frequency response, there are no audio virtues to be added.  (And that TotalDAC is just incompetently designed.)  There is no reason to spend more than a few hundred bucks on a DAC these days unless you want more features like hybrid volume control, DSP, multichannel, analog inputs, etc.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 28, 2019, 03:41:37 PM
Quote from: Daverz on September 28, 2019, 11:04:25 AM
Once you've got noise and distortion below a certain level at the required output voltage, and you have a flat frequency response, there are no audio virtues to be added.  (And that TotalDAC is just incompetently designed.)  There is no reason to spend more than a few hundred bucks on a DAC these days unless you want more features like hybrid volume control, DSP, multichannel, analog inputs, etc.

Hard-core audiophiles can hear, (or are convinced they can hear), extremely subtle sound differences;  well-heeled audiophile are often willing to spend quite large amounts to obtain the sound they prefer.

But I tend to agree that large mounts aren't necessarily need to get excellent sound.  Recently I replaced a USD 1300 Schiit Audio Gungnir Multibit DAC with a USD 400 Topping DX7s DAC;  the latter sounds essentially the same as the former, though if anything, it is tiny bitter better in the detail.

An excellent site for objective reviews of DACs, etc. is Audio Science Review (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/master-index-of-audio-hardware-reviews.8184/).  There the highest performing DACs are round $2000, but there is  the case of a USD 14,000 DAC that is outperformed by a USD 220 unit.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 11:49:07 PM
Quote from: "Harry" on September 28, 2019, 06:19:47 AM
Well the Atoll DAC 300 I ordered cost 2500,- euro's and has raving reviews on the internet. After listening to a demo I was boiled over. I have in my secondary system an Atoll amp, Avalon wall mounted speakers, Nordost Red Dawn loudspeaker cables, and  Nordost Valhalla interlinks, and power cables made ny Nordost Also an oppo Bluray player, and a Technics DAC which I have now replaced. With the new DAC the sound stage is lifted up a whole new level. Lots of detailing, open stage, a slam bass, good vocals, low/mid/high balance almost perfect.

Which Avalon model? I'm not in the market myself but I know someone who wants some top quality wall mounts, so he may well appreciate the information.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 11:52:43 PM
Quote from: Daverz on September 28, 2019, 11:04:25 AM
Once you've got noise and distortion below a certain level at the required output voltage, and you have a flat frequency response, there are no audio virtues to be added.  (And that TotalDAC is just incompetently designed.)  There is no reason to spend more than a few hundred bucks on a DAC these days unless you want more features like hybrid volume control, DSP, multichannel, analog inputs, etc.

Can you have a DAC with an impressively flat frequency response, but which sounds crap? No magic?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on September 29, 2019, 12:07:40 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 11:49:07 PM
Which Avalon model? I'm not in the market myself but I know someone who wants some top quality wall mounts, so he may well appreciate the information.

I am not even sure Avalon still has them  in their programming. After church I will see on their site if they are still there. I have  them already for almost 20 years. Be aware however that you have to add a Subwoofer to those speakers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 29, 2019, 12:38:05 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 11:52:43 PM
Can you have a DAC with an impressively flat frequency response, but which sounds crap? No magic?

"Impressively flat frequency response" tells less than people think. It's like seeing a black and white photo of a living room and commenting the interior decorating based on that. The colors could be surprisingly bad and you wouldn't know it. Flat frequency responses were relevant in the past, in the days of tube amps when flat response was a challenge. In the digital age you have other things to pay attention to. Jitter, linearity at low signal levels, type of reconstruction filter... Flat response is easy. It's the other stuff that together make difference and give a certain "character" to the sound.

No DAC these days sounds crap, but some people just want a certain "character" to the sound, the same reason people are into vinyl.

I don't know how well I or other people can hear the difference of "character" in the sound in blind listening tests. It's possible the differencies go a way, but for me at least the differences are there when I know what is playing*. Since people tend to know what they are using, that's relevant. It's kind of sad if you have to invest big money on a certain piece of equipment for the Plasebo-effect**, but life is irrational and then we die...

* Every CD/DVD/Blu-ray player I have owned have had a charasteristic sound: "velvet", "glass", "strawberry", "sand"...

** It's possible even the mechanical noises a CD-player makes when loading a disc has an psycological effect on how we perceive the sound not to mention how the player looks (design), the feel of buttons etc...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on September 29, 2019, 12:54:07 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on September 29, 2019, 12:07:40 AM
I am not even sure Avalon still has them  in their programming. After church I will see on their site if they are still there. I have  them already for almost 20 years. Be aware however that you have to add a Subwoofer to those speakers.

Thanks Harry -- much appreciated.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on September 29, 2019, 04:26:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 29, 2019, 12:54:07 AM
Thanks Harry -- much appreciated.

On their website this in wall mounted speakers are not available anymore, at least I could not find them. Neither did I find them second hand. It was a long time ago that I bought them. So no result I am afraid.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on September 29, 2019, 06:49:31 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on September 29, 2019, 04:26:23 AM
On their website this in wall mounted speakers are not available anymore, at least I could not find them. Neither did I find them second hand. It was a long time ago that I bought them. So no result I am afraid.

That's what I feared would be the case.

Harry, in your experience have you come across any speakers which sound wonderful shoved right into the corner of a room?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on September 29, 2019, 07:07:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 29, 2019, 06:49:31 AM
That's what I feared would be the case.

Harry, in your experience have you come across any speakers which sound wonderful shoved right into the corner of a room?

No not really, I had so many speakers in my life I can't even remember how many, but most of them do not benefit from putting them against the wall, thats why I bought the Avalons in the first place.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on September 29, 2019, 07:17:53 AM
This Mandryka is the speakers I have, finally found an image.

I threw the fronts away, they were hampering the good sound majorly. Looked up the bill,  bought them in 1999.
Coupled with a KEF Sub R 400B
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on September 29, 2019, 11:43:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 11:52:43 PM
Can you have a DAC with an impressively flat frequency response, but which sounds crap? No magic?

Sure, you could still have lots of intermodulation distortion, which I believe is the most audible kind of distortion.  Or lots of high order harmonic distortion, or mains hum.  I don't think jitter is a problem these days.  I think you'd have to have massive amounts of jitter for it to become audible.

Amir at ASR has measured lots of DACs.  Take a look at some of his reviews to see what kind of things are measured.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/master-index-of-audio-hardware-reviews.8184/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on October 08, 2019, 01:40:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 29, 2019, 06:49:31 AM
That's what I feared would be the case.

Harry, in your experience have you come across any speakers which sound wonderful shoved right into the corner of a room?

Tannoy designed  duel concentric horn speakers that do just that. The room corner itself is part of the horn. Rare and expensive I would love to own a pair.

(http://www.retrotechaudio.co.uk/gallery/01_5c16z6r2.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 08, 2019, 01:48:58 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 08, 2019, 01:40:13 AM
Tannoy designed  duel concentric horn speakers that do just that. The room corner itself is part of the horn. Rare and expensive I would love to own a pair.

(http://www.retrotechaudio.co.uk/gallery/01_5c16z6r2.jpg)

Awesome, never saw them before......
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on October 08, 2019, 07:03:51 AM
     I once owned Ohm Fs

     (http://www.soundadviceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/ohmfs.jpg)

     They sounded very good. Never before or after could I stand next to one speaker and hear the other so clearly.

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on October 08, 2019, 07:07:45 AM

     For the next few decades I weaned myself off of audiophilia to the point of only using "Canadian" speakers which are so boring they force you to listen to the music.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 08, 2019, 07:21:17 AM
And I ordered these babies, the Sonus Faber Wall speakers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Artem on October 10, 2019, 01:41:39 PM
Guys, your help would be appreciated. Any thoughts on these two options?

https://www.hifistudio.fi/fi/tuotteet/best-buy-tuotteet/best-buy-tuotteet/marantz-m-cr412-b-w-607-stereopaketti/78933411211 (https://www.hifistudio.fi/fi/tuotteet/best-buy-tuotteet/best-buy-tuotteet/marantz-m-cr412-b-w-607-stereopaketti/78933411211)

https://www.hifistudio.fi/fi/tuotteet/best-buy-tuotteet/best-buy-tuotteet/yamaha-mcrn670d-hi-fi-jarjestelma-dali-oberon-3/40131752279631 (https://www.hifistudio.fi/fi/tuotteet/best-buy-tuotteet/best-buy-tuotteet/yamaha-mcrn670d-hi-fi-jarjestelma-dali-oberon-3/40131752279631)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on October 24, 2019, 05:17:51 AM
Quote from: drogulus on October 08, 2019, 07:03:51 AM
     I once owned Ohm Fs

     (http://www.soundadviceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/ohmfs.jpg)

     They sounded very good. Never before or after could I stand next to one speaker and hear the other so clearly.

Yeah, me too.  I owned a pair years ago and it's one of great audiophile regrets that I sold them in favour of B&W DM7's.  >:(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on October 24, 2019, 05:54:39 AM
(https://www.rehifi.se/pub_images/large/Sonab-OA-116-42002.JPG)

The Carlsson OA series of speakers had some of the same and were amazing.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a2/c2/13/a2c213c29b586fed36a4c2bad0945861.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 13, 2019, 12:27:53 PM
After 15 years My NAD T762 started having issues. It started going "BANG" on the speakers and then to the protection mode (red LED). I tried to fix the unit myself replacing some nasty looking components and at one point the unit worked for an hour, but the issue came back and the problems started getting worse.

So, after thinking about my options, I ordered today NAD T758 V3 which is an EISA selected product. I pondered the possibility to go "stereo only" (Marantz PM6006), but since I have the 5 speakers, I did this. My idea is to use the surround back amp to drive my headphone adapter (T762 had B-speakers terminal for that), but it looks only analog sources can be directed to "zone 2" so it's difficult, but there really isn't products on the market suitable for me, at least at price I am willing to pay. Even this purchase hurts financially (1299 euros), but what can you do? 

I should get the unit next week. The dealer has to order it from the importer. This AV amp has been selling like ice cream in Sahara after the EISA selection and went "out of stock", but the importer just received a new patch.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 13, 2019, 07:48:05 PM
Quote from: Irons on October 08, 2019, 01:40:13 AM
Tannoy designed  duel concentric horn speakers that do just that. The room corner itself is part of the horn. Rare and expensive I would love to own a pair.

(http://www.retrotechaudio.co.uk/gallery/01_5c16z6r2.jpg)
These were my first ever speakers inherited from my Uncle as an young teenager. Able to blow the roof off but anything but subtle. They don't require much amplifier power so much as a high damping factor. (Google it). They also don't work effectively in the corners of every room and don't necessarily have to be placed in corners unless playing in a large room. The early examples had little or no internal acoustic damping. A range of different drivers were insalled in them over the decades, the best being the 15" Gold or one of the latest.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ratliff on December 13, 2019, 08:22:15 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 13, 2019, 12:27:53 PM
After 15 years My NAD T762 started having issues. It started going "BANG" on the speakers and then to the protection mode (red LED). I tried to fix the unit myself replacing some nasty looking components and at one point the unit worked for an hour, but the issue came back and the problems started getting worse.

So, after thinking about my options, I ordered today NAD T758 V3 which is an EISA selected product. I pondered the possibility to go "stereo only" (Marantz PM6006), but since I have the 5 speakers, I did this. My idea is to use the surround back amp to drive my headphone adapter (T762 had B-speakers terminal for that), but it looks only analog sources can be directed to "zone 2" so it's difficult, but there really isn't products on the market suitable for me, at least at price I am willing to pay. Even this purchase hurts financially (1299 euros), but what can you do? 

I should get the unit next week. The dealer has to order it from the importer. This AV amp has been selling like ice cream in Sahara after the EISA selection and went "out of stock", but the importer just received a new patch.

I was an NAD enthusiast back in the day when they made components which were simple and elegant in design but had high quality circuitry. My respect for NAD ended when I got an A/V receiver, I think a T761, probably the precursor to your model. After a short time it seemed to develop a DC bias in the output stage (when I turned it on I noticed low frequency driver cones suddenly jump to a constant offset from resting position, suggesting a DC current running through them). Then it started throwing thermal faults. By then it was out of warranty and I vaguely remember heaving it into a trash dumpster.

Now I have a Marantz 2 channel power amp and a nice A/V amp from Yamaha, which is way cheaper than anything from NAD, is easy to use and sounds great.

I still run my headphones through my old, old NAD 1130 pre-amp, mostly for sentimental reasons.

(https://www.hifiengine.com/images/model/nad_1130_stereo_preamplifier.jpg)

Such an elegant piece of iron!. I've been running it since the 80's and it still works like a dream.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 13, 2019, 09:29:52 PM
Quote from: Ratliff on December 13, 2019, 08:22:15 PM
I was an NAD enthusiast back in the day when they made components which were simple and elegant in design but had high quality circuitry. My respect for NAD ended when I got an A/V receiver, I think a T761,
Something often neglected by the audiophool press is the frequent change in ownership of particular brands.
Instance Denon. I've lost track of how many holding companies have owned that brand over the decades. One thing I do know from painful experience is if you buy a particular model from such a brand later on expecting it to be serviced you can often be told 'Sorry, we don't hold stock of spare parts used under the previous owner/importer etc'. Luxman is an interesting one. Once the very top of Japanese electronics it was sold to a less honourable company proceeding to sell crappy sounding, unreliable gear until only a few years ago the original owners bought the company back soon returning it to it's glory days. The only Japanese company I know of that's remained under the same ownership for over a century is Yamaha. But even they were seduced by the early home theatre market neglecting 'mere' audio gear for far too long. Praise be they're back in the audio game with a vengeance.
And it's not just Asian audio brands that have been handed around. I've lost track of the number of companies who've owned the 'English' QAUD brand over the years.
Now under German ownership at least they haven't dropped their game.
The trick in all of this is to make a friends of a (retail) audio repair technician and pick their brains about reliability before making any purchase. The audiophool magazines aren't going to tell you much about any model's reliability.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 13, 2019, 09:38:49 PM
Quote from: drogulus on October 08, 2019, 07:03:51 AM
     I once owned Ohm Fs

     (http://www.soundadviceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/ohmfs.jpg)
They sounded very good. Never before or after could I stand next to one speaker and hear the other so clearly.
The German Physiks HRS120 Carbon is a development and refinement of the same principal. Not cheap but you'll never have to think about having only one person able to sit in the 'sweet-spot' ever again.
https://zstereo.co.uk/2016/07/19/german-physiks-hrs120-carbon/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2019, 11:05:11 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 13, 2019, 07:48:05 PM

They also don't work effectively in the corners of every room

That's interesting, I've always been tempted by corner Tannoys because I would like speakers which work in corners to replace my electrostatics,  and classic Tannoys though expensive, are a good investment because of demand in the Far East. But what you say makes me think I should avoid them.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 14, 2019, 12:44:07 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 13, 2019, 11:05:11 PM
That's interesting, I've always been tempted by corner Tannoys because I would like speakers which work in corners to replace my electrostatics,  and classic Tannoys though expensive, are a good investment because of demand in the Far East. But what you say makes me think I should avoid them.
The enclosure designs are in the public domain. If you know a cabinet maker able to handle angles other than 90 deg the drivers are available.
The kinds of rooms where they fail to function properly in corners are where those corners are so far apart the stereo image ends up with a gap in the middle.
Here's a simpler design not requiring corner placement.
https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diy_tannoy_horn_e.html
If your room isn't gigantic these will provide you with more than sufficient bass IF you don't use an underpowered valve amp.
Corner horns as designed originally by Tannoy are very complex constructions only the most skilled cabinet makers should tackle.
http://www.audioasylumtrader.com/ca/listing/Speakers-Horns-Parts-Stands/Tannoy/GRF-Corner-Horn/CAD-CNC-plans-and-files/86900

https://www.hilberink.nl/speaker.htm

However, my advice is if you're thinking along these lines be aware there are many traps for beginners. An alternative would be to buy a pair of middle of the range (top if you can afford them ) KEF dual concentric speakers and add a sub-woofer later on.(Two would be the best way to go though) Run side to side with Tannoys I suggest the age of the Tannoy design is audible. The Tannoys are not unpleasant but certainly coloured in the mid-bass. As you're in London you're in the best location to hunt down a pair of used KEF LS 50's or similar.
https://www.whathifi.com/kef/ls50/review
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 15, 2019, 12:33:12 AM
One attitude expressed on other threads here drives me insane. This idea  a valid opinion can be given, of say, the correct choice of organ stops heard via low fidelity audio system is so illogical I've given up trying to explain the delusion. If they imagine audio equipment need not be of a certain standard to actually hear subtle differences (actually even profound differences) between a Schnitger organ and a modern Rieger organ why do they think centuries of art, craft and science are needed to design and construct these instruments themselves?  Something doesn't add up.
As to comparing and making judgements of recordings of complex orchestral forces without being able to hear what's actually on those CD's/ downloads etc I'm amazed such selective denial can be manifested by otherwise apparently intelligent individuals.
OK, music can be enjoyed on inferior (term chosen deliberately) equipment, yes it can. This however does not give the listener an open enough window onto a performance to make valid judgements of a recordings quality, let alone other musical details such as dynamic contrasts etc. To blindly accept such evaluations as reliable risks disappointment. The problem has become exacerbated since printed magazines such as Gramophone are less often consulted by potential customers who now give credence to amateur reviews they dig up on the web . And yes, I'm throwing a rock into a wasps nest deliberately .
I confess however I've been as guilty of this stupidity myself by purchasing recordings based on how they sound on a sites such as Youtube. Often put there by amateurs and/or subjected to MP 3 compression etc this is another risky methodology.

I suppose though it's all an improvement on the days when I used to audition LP's in record retailers who invariably played them on the worst imaginable gear that not only masked faults and strangled musicality but through the use of damaged styli damaged the LP you were about to take home.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 15, 2019, 01:24:51 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 13, 2019, 11:05:11 PM
That's interesting, I've always been tempted by corner Tannoys because I would like speakers which work in corners to replace my electrostatics,  and classic Tannoys though expensive, are a good investment because of demand in the Far East. But what you say makes me think I should avoid them.
Just noticed your mention of electrostatics. If these are any of QUAD's in decent condition you're going to find the mid range on Tannoy's very crude by comparison. Mind you, you will no longer have to sit rigidly in the 'sweet spot' to avoid the stereo image falling apart. Again I'd suggest KEF LS 50's as their mids are close to an equal of electrostatics with much clearer highs and don't fall apart when things go really loud. I've lived with a number of QUADs and although finding them very musical I found myself restricting my listening to smaller forces. I never managed to get sub-woofers to blend seamlessly with them either.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 15, 2019, 03:46:22 AM
Quote from: Ratliff on December 13, 2019, 08:22:15 PM
I was an NAD enthusiast back in the day when they made components which were simple and elegant in design but had high quality circuitry. My respect for NAD ended when I got an A/V receiver, I think a T761, probably the precursor to your model. After a short time it seemed to develop a DC bias in the output stage (when I turned it on I noticed low frequency driver cones suddenly jump to a constant offset from resting position, suggesting a DC current running through them). Then it started throwing thermal faults. By then it was out of warranty and I vaguely remember heaving it into a trash dumpster.

A lot of people say they are done with NAD, but somehow the company is still in the business. I have had my problems too, just a few years ago with my C 565BEE CD-player, but now the player has been functioning as it should. I think home theatre sound when it "arrived" in the 90's was a shock to NAD that had been the "king" of affordable two channel audio, but it seems they have adapted and learned how to do things.

Quote from: Ratliff on December 13, 2019, 08:22:15 PMNow I have a Marantz 2 channel power amp and a nice A/V amp from Yamaha, which is way cheaper than anything from NAD, is easy to use and sounds great.

I still run my headphones through my old, old NAD 1130 pre-amp, mostly for sentimental reasons.

(https://www.hifiengine.com/images/model/nad_1130_stereo_preamplifier.jpg)

Such an elegant piece of iron!. I've been running it since the 80's and it still works like a dream.

So do you have separate systems/speakers for 2 channel audio (Marantz) and multichannel audio (Yamaha)?

Do you know what's the output impedance of the NAD 1130 headphone output?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 15, 2019, 04:37:07 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 15, 2019, 03:46:22 AM

Do you know what's the output impedance of the NAD 1130 headphone output?
Listed on the web as 120 Ohms BUT be warned. NAD is one of those companies whose small print informs us. 'The manufacturer reserves the right to alter specifications without notice'
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 15, 2019, 05:26:34 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 15, 2019, 03:46:22 AM
A lot of people say they are done with NAD, but somehow the company is still in the business. I have had my problems too, just a few years ago with my C 565BEE CD-player, but now the player has been functioning as it should. I think home theatre sound when it "arrived" in the 90's was a shock to NAD that had been the "king" of affordable two channel audio, but it seems they have adapted and learned how to do things.

So do you have separate systems/speakers for 2 channel audio (Marantz) and multichannel audio (Yamaha)?

Do you know what's the output impedance of the NAD 1130 headphone output?

I would suggest a dedicated headphone amp.  Doesn't have to run you over 100 Euro for near state-of-the-art.  See

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/master-index-of-audio-hardware-reviews.8184/

for reviews and measurements of various headphone amps and DAC/headphone amps.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ratliff on December 15, 2019, 06:51:23 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 15, 2019, 04:37:07 PM
Listed on the web as 120 Ohms BUT be warned. NAD is one of those companies whose small print informs us. 'The manufacturer reserves the right to alter specifications without notice'

I've had this amp since 1987, if I remember correctly. I don't think the warning means NAD techs will sneak into your house in the middle of the night and swap out resisters. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 15, 2019, 06:55:05 PM
Quote from: Ratliff on December 15, 2019, 06:51:23 PM
I've had this amp since 1987, if I remember correctly. I don't think the warning means NAD techs will sneak into your house in the middle of the night and swap out resisters. :)
No, but it does mean different production runs may have different values without the published values being updated.
As to having an NAD tech sneak into my house in the middle of the night, I'd give him more than resistors to play with.  :P
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 15, 2019, 07:00:20 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 15, 2019, 05:26:34 PM

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/master-index-of-audio-hardware-reviews.8184/
for reviews and measurements of various headphone amps and DAC/headphone amps.
This is a wonderful resource for those who can interpret the test results. Thanks for posting it. I don't know how I've never encountered it previously over the decades.However I noticed their test methodology on the Nakamichi 'Dragon' was anything but scientific.
I still have one, and a tame Nakamichi technician ( a rare beast these days) that runs to original specification (the deck that is, not the tech). All three heads and the transport mechanism were however replaced with new parts over ten years ago. And yes, I still use it with metal tapes,especially to confuse audiophools they're listening to a state of the art digital source.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 15, 2019, 08:41:42 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 15, 2019, 07:00:20 PM
This is a wonderful resource for those who can interpret the test results. Thanks for posting it. I don't know how I've never encountered it previously over the decades.However I noticed their test methodology on the Nakamichi 'Dragon' was anything but scientific.

Looking at that thread, some of the other members there agree, though I don't see anyone putting up measurements.

All moot now as a cheap ADC will vastly outperform it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 15, 2019, 09:39:20 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 15, 2019, 08:41:42 PM
Looking at that thread, some of the other members there agree, though I don't see anyone putting up measurements.

All moot now as a cheap ADC will vastly outperform it.
True but like some silly old fart hanging onto a vintage MG sports car I hang onto mine.
It's intersting too when children visit and ask 'What's that thing' . For some reason they think it's very ingenious.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 16, 2019, 04:40:43 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 15, 2019, 04:37:07 PM
Listed on the web as 120 Ohms BUT be warned. NAD is one of those companies whose small print informs us. 'The manufacturer reserves the right to alter specifications without notice'

Ok, that's the (stupid) "standard", but many headphones require lower output impedance, some as low as 10 Ω! Too high output impedance causes problems such as frequency response error, distortion and uncontrolled sound due to lack of adequate damping. However, many headphones work just fine with 120 Ω output impedance (those with high impedance or/and flat impedance curve), but not all!

Quote from: Ratliff on December 15, 2019, 06:51:23 PM
I've had this amp since 1987, if I remember correctly. I don't think the warning means NAD techs will sneak into your house in the middle of the night and swap out resisters. :)

HAH!  ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 16, 2019, 05:05:15 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 16, 2019, 04:40:43 PM
Ok, that's the (stupid) "standard", but many headphones require lower output impedance, some as low as 10 Ω! Too high output impedance causes problems such as frequency response error, distortion and uncontrolled sound due to lack of adequate damping. However, many headphones work just fine with 120 Ω output impedance (those with high impedance or/and flat impedance curve), but not all!
Or you could spend silly money on something like a Manley Audio earphone amp which includes variable output impedances switchable between Low 12-50 Ohm, Mid 50-200 Ohm and High 200-600 Ohms.
https://www.manley.com/hifi/mabhpa
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 16, 2019, 05:56:25 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 16, 2019, 05:05:15 PM
Or you could spend silly money on something like a Manley Audio earphone amp which includes variable output impedances switchable between Low 12-50 Ohm, Mid 50-200 Ohm and High 200-600 Ohms.
https://www.manley.com/hifi/mabhpa

Or you can build a $50 DIY headphone adapter including a crossfeeder and output impedance of 1 Ω. That's what I did.  0:)

Even cheaper solution to deal with the output impedance is to make your DIY headpgone extension cable with say 10 Ω resistors connecting the signal to ground lowering the effective output seen by the headphones (however this, lowers volume level a lot).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 16, 2019, 07:16:21 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 16, 2019, 05:56:25 PM
Or you can build a $50 DIY headphone adapter including a crossfeeder and output impedance of 1 Ω. That's what I did.  0:)

Even cheaper solution to deal with the output impedance is to make your DIY headpgone extension cable with say 10 Ω resistors connecting the signal to ground lowering the effective output seen by the headphones (however this, lowers volume level a lot).
Indeed but I prefer the audiosnob approach. An addiction I blame my late Uncle for.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 17, 2019, 03:11:27 AM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 16, 2019, 07:16:21 PM
Indeed but I prefer the audiosnob approach. An addiction I blame my late Uncle for.

The only addiction I have to blame my late uncle for is Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. In Finland you can find those in only some places and the price is about 3 times the prices in the US. The irony is in general Finnish (European for that matter) chocolate is superior to American chocolate.

Being an audiosnob is dangerous and addictions aren often harmful. It's a fine line of having great sound in sane ways without crossing the line of lunacy were you have your $2000 speaker cables on wooden blocks (cherry tree of something like that) to have "airy" sound... ...my education in the field of electric engineering/acoustics gives me some kind of protection against severe audiosnobbery.

The point was in products such as NAD 1130 which otherwise may have great performance are somewhat compromised when it comes to the headphone output - it can be surprisingly bad when used with certain headphone models. I have noticed that in some of their newer products NAD has lower heaphone output impedance (68 Ω, 10 Ω and even 8 Ω) so in some ways this issue has been aknowledged.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ratliff on December 17, 2019, 07:15:16 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 17, 2019, 03:11:27 AM
The only addiction I have to blame my late uncle for is Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. In Finland you can find those in only some places and the price is about 3 times the prices in the US. The irony is in general Finnish (European for that matter) chocolate is superior to American chocolate.

That is a huge generalization The mass market food here is probably worse than the mass market food in Europe, but the best food here is as good as or better than anything made anywhere in the world. My peanut butter cup addiction is "Justin's," based in Boulder, Colorado. My chocolate of choice these days is TCHO, based in Berkeley, California. The latter is better than any Swiss or Belgian chocolate I have ever had.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 17, 2019, 09:30:06 AM
Quote from: Ratliff on December 17, 2019, 07:15:16 AM
That is a huge generalization The mass market food here is probably worse than the mass market food in Europe, but the best food here is as good as or better than anything made anywhere in the world. My peanut butter cup addiction is "Justin's," based in Boulder, Colorado. My chocolate of choice these days is TCHO, based in Berkeley, California. The latter is better than any Swiss or Belgian chocolate I have ever had.

My "opinion" is based on the opinions of Americans who taste Finnish chocolate (especially from Fazer (https://en.fazer.com/) brand). For me that chocolate is "normal" good stuff as I have eaten it all my life, but for many foreigners it's something special. Go figure...

Living in Finland I have never heard of Justin's or TCHO. Perhaps those are the best chocolate in the World, what do I know...  ::)
Similarly, what Europe has to offer is not limited to Swiss and Belgian chocolate, so keep that in mind.

I was talking about chocolate, maybe candies too. Those seem to be of high quality in Finland (althou people outside the Nordic countries struggle with salty liquorice aka 'salmiakki '  ;D ) Food is another issue. I believe there's delicious food everywhere in the World, just different. In Finland foreigners are often blown away by salmon soup 'lohikeitto ' and Finnish cinnamon rolls 'korvapuusti '.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ratliff on December 17, 2019, 10:42:44 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 17, 2019, 09:30:06 AM
My "opinion" is based on the opinions of Americans who taste Finnish chocolate (especially from Fazer (https://en.fazer.com/) brand). For me that chocolate is "normal" good stuff as I have eaten it all my life, but for many foreigners it's something special. Go figure...

Living in Finland I have never heard of Justin's or TCHO. Perhaps those are the best chocolate in the World, what do I know...  ::)
Similarly, what Europe has to offer is not limited to Swiss and Belgian chocolate, so keep that in mind.

I was talking about chocolate, maybe candies too. Those seem to be of high quality in Finland (althou people outside the Nordic countries struggle with salty liquorice aka 'salmiakki '  ;D ) Food is another issue. I believe there's delicious food everywhere in the World, just different. In Finland foreigners are often blown away by salmon soup 'lohikeitto ' and Finnish cinnamon rolls 'korvapuusti '.

My wife has family in Finland, who she has visited often in the past. She says she has had Fazar chocolate and it is nice, but rather generic. She described it as the Finnish version of Hershey's. Looking at the web site, it seems a notch or two above Hershey. That tends to confirm my impression, that mass market stuff in Europe is better than in the U.S., although the U.S. has the greatest variety available, including very good stuff.

My favorite European chocolate products are Anthon Berg Fruit and Marzipan candies, and Niederegger Marzipan.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on December 17, 2019, 12:13:35 PM
The Norwegian Freia chocolate has slowly spiralled downwards in quality (at least for some of their products) since being taken over by Kraffts 20 years ago, igniting various discussions in the media.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 17, 2019, 12:23:08 PM
Quote from: Ratliff on December 17, 2019, 10:42:44 AM
My wife has family in Finland, who she has visited often in the past. She says she has had Fazar chocolate and it is nice, but rather generic. She described it as the Finnish version of Hershey's. Looking at the web site, it seems a notch or two above Hershey. That tends to confirm my impression, that mass market stuff in Europe is better than in the U.S., although the U.S. has the greatest variety available, including very good stuff.

My favorite European chocolate products are Anthon Berg Fruit and Marzipan candies, and Niederegger Marzipan.

Yeah, one would think a country of 320 million people might have "greater variety available" than a country of 5.5 million people (same as Oregon - How about Oregon vs. Finland chocolate competition?). I did mean mass market stuff.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ratliff on December 17, 2019, 03:16:02 PM
Quote from: The new erato on December 17, 2019, 12:13:35 PM
The Norwegian Freia chocolate has slowly spiralled downwards in quality (at least for some of their products) since being taken over by Kraffts 20 years ago, igniting various discussions in the media.

The British brand black and green was likewise taken over by Cadbury, which was then taken over by kraft foods, with similar results. Fortunately new companies seem to pop up to replace the ones consumed by the corporate giants.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ratliff on December 18, 2019, 05:11:09 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 17, 2019, 12:23:08 PM
Yeah, one would think a country of 320 million people might have "greater variety available" than a country of 5.5 million people (same as Oregon - How about Oregon vs. Finland chocolate competition?). I did mean mass market stuff.

Finland is a great place to live, as my wife's family confirms, but the U.S. is not quite a the dystopia you think it is.

About Oregon chocolate, I don't know. There's this:

http://www.oregonchocolatefestival.com/

:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 18, 2019, 05:52:44 AM
Quote from: Ratliff on December 18, 2019, 05:11:09 AM
Finland is a great place to live, as my wife's family confirms, but the U.S. is not quite a the dystopia you think it is.

About Oregon chocolate, I don't know. There's this:

http://www.oregonchocolatefestival.com/

:)

The US is a great place to be if your socioeconomic status is upper middle class or higher. Below that not so much. The US does a poor job considering it's potential as the richest country in the World. So much resources and still 10 % of population doesn't have access to healthcare and in some areas tap water catches fire thanks to crumbling infrastructure! That IS dystopic from Finnish point of view.

Oregon has some nice chocolate! So has Finland:

https://suklaatehdas.com/en/?v=f0aa03aaca95
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: ritter on December 18, 2019, 06:51:23 AM
You might have a point, Harry, but I'm afraid definitely so does Andrei in this instance. The member 71 dB's constant posting of uniformed and extremely biased political rants and disparaging comments about the U.S. are tiresome, annoying and, most importantly, unbecoming of this forum we all cherish.  >:(

Best regards,
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 18, 2019, 07:15:51 AM
Quote from: ritter on December 18, 2019, 06:51:23 AM
You might have a point, Harry, but I'm afraid definitely so does Andrei in this instance. The member 71 dB's constant posting of uniformed and extremely biased political rants and disparaging comments about the U.S. are tiresome, annoying and, most importantly, unbecoming of this forum we all cherish.  >:(

Best regards,

Sure that may be, but that does not warrant such a reaction. Not to react at all is better, and if than through PM'S and keep away the conflict of the forum.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 18, 2019, 08:04:08 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on December 18, 2019, 06:36:24 AM
Andrei this is not as I know you, using such harsh words, especially if Poju is right. I have many friends in the States and have visited the country often. Pojus is right, and you are crude and unpolite, so kindly remove this unasked for attack. If you will not do it for Poju, do it out of respect for me.

Thank you Harry! Sorry about the off topic stuff. I stop it here now as this is supposed to be about audio systems.

My NAD T758 V3 is coming tomorrow or on Friday.  0:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on December 18, 2019, 08:13:45 AM
My latest purchase, £10 from ebay,  to help me decide which one to keep, Spendor SP1 or Mission 770.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/4hIAAOSwWxxd2sXR/s-l1600.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on December 18, 2019, 08:34:49 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on December 18, 2019, 06:36:24 AM
Andrei this is not as I know you, using such harsh words, especially if Poju is right. I have many friends in the States and have visited the country often. Pojus is right, and you are crude and unpolite, so kindly remove this unasked for attack. If you will not do it for Poju, do it out of respect for me.

I did it for you.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on December 18, 2019, 08:35:39 AM
Quote from: ritter on December 18, 2019, 06:51:23 AM
You might have a point, Harry, but I'm afraid definitely so does Andrei in this instance. The member 71 dB's constant posting of uniformed and extremely biased political rants and disparaging comments about the U.S. are tiresome, annoying and, most importantly, unbecoming of this forum we all cherish.  >:(

Precisely. And thank you.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on December 18, 2019, 08:55:59 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 18, 2019, 08:13:45 AM
My latest purchase, £10 from ebay,  to help me decide which one to keep, Spendor SP1 or Mission 770.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/4hIAAOSwWxxd2sXR/s-l1600.jpg)

Good luck with the A/B session and ultimate choice. I personally like the Spendor sound. Once upon a time I did own a pair of Spendor A 4 speakers. I still regret selling them even if it was to help fund an upgrade at the time. They had a wonderful, well rounded and warm sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 18, 2019, 09:23:20 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 18, 2019, 08:34:49 AM
I did it for you.

Thank you, I removed my post!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on December 20, 2019, 12:35:59 AM
Quote from: aligreto on December 18, 2019, 08:55:59 AM
Good luck with the A/B session and ultimate choice. I personally like the Spendor sound. Once upon a time I did own a pair of Spendor A 4 speakers. I still regret selling them even if it was to help fund an upgrade at the time. They had a wonderful, well rounded and warm sound.

Yes Spendors are better, that became immediately clear.


Why would anyone use the A+B option on the switch?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on December 20, 2019, 06:59:40 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2019, 12:35:59 AM
Yes Spendors are better, that became immediately clear.


Why would anyone use the A+B option on the switch?

My first serious speakers were Spendor BC1. Very well made but a difficult load for a power amplifier.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on December 20, 2019, 08:19:29 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2019, 12:35:59 AM
Yes Spendors are better, that became immediately clear.


Cheers and not surprising. Spendors have a very good pedigree.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 21, 2019, 01:02:25 PM
If you are wondering why I haven't posted much here it's because my NAD T758 v3 came on Friday and I have been trying hard to make it work the way I want/need. It's hell. If it was only speakers this would be somewhat easy, but I use headphones a lot and I have crossfeed adapter. My previous NAD T762 had B-speaker terminals which I used to feed the crossfeed adapter, but NAD T758 doesn't have. So I use surround back speaker terminals for that (I have only 5 speakers). The problem is ONLY stereo analog sound can be directed to "Zone 2" for headphones. I thought I can program the inputs so that everything works, but it seems impossible! HDMI ARC sound doesn't work the way I need, and most of the time it isn't working (or my setup is wrong - these are VERY confusing) at all. I get picture without sound or sound without picture. At one point I was able to get TV sound on headphones WHILE speaker played DVD sound, but not DVD sound to headphones. Crazy! Turns out in my tests that if you use HDMI ARC sound the tv doesn't give sound any other way: no optical output, not even the headphone jacks of the TV!! So there is no way to make the sound analog for Zone 2!! So stupid!!

So now countless of hours later I feel defeated. I made a setup where everything (except analog SACD multichannel sound  :) ) is stereo sound!!! At least I have sound! On all sources and both speakers and headphones. I payed for "Atmos" and got stereo, but this is what it is nowadays. These home theatre receivers do not serve well those with special headphone arrangements. If they do the price tag makes me run away!  ???

The amplifier itself is stunning! Awesome sound quality and power. So, I want to keep it and I can always make alternative setup re-arranging the HDMI cables etc. for real multichannel sound with extra work, but I think stereo is to way to go. Makes life easy. This is my LAST multichannel amp. The next one will be a stereo amp with B-speaker terminals. So much easier than fighting with stupid CEC-protocols and "no analog sound if digital is available" crap!  >:(

Home theatre gear has gotten too complex. You should be able to just hook up the cables and start using the sound system. That's what it was back in the analog stereo days. Now you have to read the manual for sentences like:

CEC/LAN/BluOS IN STANDBY
Indicates the status of CEC, LAN and BluOS activity while the unit is in standby mode.
On
• Enable CEC feature. Audio and video will continuously stream from a CEC-enabled HDMI source to a CEC-enabled TV (with both devices connected via T 758).
• LAN and BluOS connections continue to be active.
Off
• T 758 will not pass through any CEC message. Audio and video will not be streamed from a CEC-enabled HDMI source to a CEC- enabled TV (with both devices connected via T 758).
• LAN and BluOS connections are idle or inactive.


An try to figure out what the f**k all that means in YOUR setup.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ratliff on December 25, 2019, 04:09:04 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 21, 2019, 01:02:25 PM
If you are wondering why I haven't posted much here it's because my NAD T758 v3 came on Friday and I have been trying hard to make it work the way I want/need. It's hell. If it was only speakers this would be somewhat easy, but I use headphones a lot and I have crossfeed adapter. My previous NAD T762 had B-speaker terminals which I used to feed the crossfeed adapter, but NAD T758 doesn't have. So I use surround back speaker terminals for that (I have only 5 speakers). The problem is ONLY stereo analog sound can be directed to "Zone 2" for headphones. I thought I can program the inputs so that everything works, but it seems impossible! HDMI ARC sound doesn't work the way I need, and most of the time it isn't working (or my setup is wrong - these are VERY confusing) at all. I get picture without sound or sound without picture. At one point I was able to get TV sound on headphones WHILE speaker played DVD sound, but not DVD sound to headphones. Crazy! Turns out in my tests that if you use HDMI ARC sound the tv doesn't give sound any other way: no optical output, not even the headphone jacks of the TV!! So there is no way to make the sound analog for Zone 2!! So stupid!!

So now countless of hours later I feel defeated. I made a setup where everything (except analog SACD multichannel sound  :) ) is stereo sound!!! At least I have sound! On all sources and both speakers and headphones. I payed for "Atmos" and got stereo, but this is what it is nowadays. These home theatre receivers do not serve well those with special headphone arrangements. If they do the price tag makes me run away!  ???

The amplifier itself is stunning! Awesome sound quality and power. So, I want to keep it and I can always make alternative setup re-arranging the HDMI cables etc. for real multichannel sound with extra work, but I think stereo is to way to go. Makes life easy. This is my LAST multichannel amp. The next one will be a stereo amp with B-speaker terminals. So much easier than fighting with stupid CEC-protocols and "no analog sound if digital is available" crap!  >:(

Home theatre gear has gotten too complex. You should be able to just hook up the cables and start using the sound system. That's what it was back in the analog stereo days. Now you have to read the manual for sentences like:

CEC/LAN/BluOS IN STANDBY
Indicates the status of CEC, LAN and BluOS activity while the unit is in standby mode.
On
• Enable CEC feature. Audio and video will continuously stream from a CEC-enabled HDMI source to a CEC-enabled TV (with both devices connected via T 758).
• LAN and BluOS connections continue to be active.
Off
• T 758 will not pass through any CEC message. Audio and video will not be streamed from a CEC-enabled HDMI source to a CEC- enabled TV (with both devices connected via T 758).
• LAN and BluOS connections are idle or inactive.


An try to figure out what the f**k all that means in YOUR setup.

I don't understand the reasoning of paying top dollar for a high end multichannel amp and using it for stereo, when a much cheaper 2 channel amp would serve as well. Why not just get a modestly priced 2 channel amp to run your headphone crossfeed setup and let the multichannel amp do what it is designed for?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 25, 2019, 08:45:32 PM
Quote from: Ratliff on December 25, 2019, 04:09:04 PM
I don't understand the reasoning of paying top dollar for a high end multichannel amp and using it for stereo, when a much cheaper 2 channel amp would serve as well. Why not just get a modestly priced 2 channel amp to run your headphone crossfeed setup and let the multichannel amp do what it is designed for?

Well, stereo can be extended to multichannel, but it's not real multichannel sound. If I use a separate stereo amp for headphones, I'd have to get the signal to the amp and it's not simple either.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 29, 2019, 03:24:03 AM
Finally figured out on Friday how I get real multichannel sound for speakers AND downmixed stereo sound for headphones with the same setup. It turned out when the main part of NAD T758 (Z1) is ON and ARC sound is functional, my tv refuses to send the sound out any other way (optical out), but when Z1 is OFF and Z2 is ON, ARC sound stops working and my tv sends the sound out "normally" including optical out. So, when I listen to the movies with headphones, Z1 must be OFF meaning the HDMI connectors of my amp just passively let signal through from Blu-ray player to TV as if I had connected the Blu-ray player directly to the TV (the setup I had previously because my older amp didn't have HDMI). This is me finally using ARC sound and hence I must learn new things. It doesn't help that the manuals for my Sony TV are extremely bad and even if the manual of the NAD amp is 100 times better, it doesn't address the situation where one uses Z2 for a headphone adapter (because there's probably a dozen people in the whole world doing something that "strange"). Luckily it seems to be possible after all and the system works beautifully.  :)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on June 04, 2020, 05:11:01 AM
I just purchased a used (mint condition) pair of these and now I need to listen to all my discs once again (oh crap):

(http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/sonusfaber_elipsa.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: steve ridgway on June 04, 2020, 05:18:58 AM
Quote from: The new erato on June 04, 2020, 05:11:01 AM
I just purchased a used (mint condition) pair of these and now I need to listen to all my discs once again (oh crap):

(http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/sonusfaber_elipsa.jpg)

Maybe there's something you didn't quite like that these will improve just enough to make the difference :-\.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on June 04, 2020, 05:22:14 AM
Quote from: The new erato on June 04, 2020, 05:11:01 AM
I just purchased a used (mint condition) pair of these and now I need to listen to all my discs once again (oh crap):

(http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/sonusfaber_elipsa.jpg)

Which brand is that Erato?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on June 04, 2020, 05:35:52 AM
It's the Sonus Faber Elipsa SE. They were originally brand new in 2015 (and I listened misty eyed to them at the dealer at the time), the previous owner bought them store owned i 2016 and now sold them to me (he has an even heftier and newer Sonus faber set as his prime loudspeakers so they are well taken care of and not much used).

They will replace a 12 year old first generation Vienna Beethoven set as speakers in my living room (and at 5 times the cost of those at original list price). At 550 x 1250 x 420 mm they are rather hefty.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on June 04, 2020, 05:42:47 AM
Quote from: The new erato on June 04, 2020, 05:38:44 AM
Its not the Starivari but it's slightly downscaled "little" brother. Though in the SE upgraded version with a lot of Stradivari Components.

I know the sound of this speaker. Sonus Faber speakers are high on my list, you did well to buy them. They look and sound fantastic. I envy you. Let me know how they sound in your listening room! Congratulations!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Wanderer on June 04, 2020, 05:43:13 AM
Quote from: The new erato on June 04, 2020, 05:38:44 AM
Its not the Starivari but it's slightly downscaled "little" brother. Though in the SE upgraded version with a lot of Stradivari Components.

Seeing the picture, I thought it was the Stradivari Homage, they're quite similar. An eventual review will be most welcome! 😎
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on June 04, 2020, 05:56:06 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on June 04, 2020, 05:43:13 AM
Seeing the picture, I thought it was the Stradivari Homage, they're quite similar. An eventual review will be most welcome! 😎

The Stradivari has an additional 10 inch woofer, and a more complex internal structure for the midrange unit, and is deeper and taller, but generally very similar. And even better woodworking and several additional layers of piano laquer. But I cannot imagine how they can look better than these, and I cannot imagine needing an addional 110 mms of height and approximately 100 mm of Depth......

I'll try to write some impressions in due time. In general not the most analytical speakers out there, but fabulous on perspective/soundstage and voices. And as Music is subjective and my preferences are strongly in those directions, sounds most promising to me.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on June 04, 2020, 07:01:01 AM
Quote from: The new erato on June 04, 2020, 05:56:06 AM
The Stradivari has an additional 10 inch woofer, and a more complex internal structure for the midrange unit, and is deeper and taller, but generally very similar. And even better woodworking and several additional layers of piano laquer. But I cannot imagine how they can look better than these, and I cannot imagine needing an addional 110 mms of height and approximately 100 mm of Depth......

I'll try to write some impressions. In general not the most analytical speakers out there, but fabulous on perspective/soundstage and voices. And as Music is subjective and my preferences are strongly in those directions, sounds most promising to me.

Fine speakers with an enviable reputation. Are they a difficult load for amp?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on June 04, 2020, 07:02:31 AM
They are considered relatively amp friendly and pretty effective.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 05, 2020, 12:33:03 AM
Quote from: The new erato on June 04, 2020, 05:11:01 AM
I just purchased a used (mint condition) pair of these and now I need to listen to all my discs once again (oh crap):

(http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/sonusfaber_elipsa.jpg)

Note to self: Must find an excuse to come back to Norway, soon.  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ratliff on June 05, 2020, 06:07:31 AM
You've got $20k to drop on a whim for a pair of speakers. ??? The pandemic is treating you well, my friend.  :laugh:
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on June 05, 2020, 08:03:50 AM
Used. Half that.  :D

They popped up in the neighbourhood and knew it was now or never....
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on June 05, 2020, 08:15:26 AM
Quote from: The new erato on June 05, 2020, 08:03:50 AM
Used. Half that.  :D

They popped up in the neighbourhood and knew it was now or never....

Its a good deal you made. I have listened to these speakers at a friend of mine, and i was pretty impressed by what I heard.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DaveF on June 06, 2020, 12:42:19 AM
I'm hoping for some advice from the experts here.  Last time I bought a hi-fi system, it was made up of a CD player, amp and speakers, and there may even have been a cassette deck in there.  Now I have probably more than half of my music as downloads, and my entire collection, downloads and 2000+ CDs, ripped to a hard drive.  And I'm almost completely ignorant about how to set up a system to play these.  I gather from reading online (which however quickly seems to plunge me deeper than I would like into technology) that I need a DAC plugged into my PC, with possibly another bit of the same DAC plugged into a receiver.  Can I do this wirelessly, with the PC/drive in one room and the receiver 10m away in another?  And all wireless receivers I look at also seem to have streaming capabilities for Spotify, Amazon Music etc, which I'm not too bothered about - really I just want to play the stuff off my hard drive.  And recommendations for specific equipment would be welcome too - possibly with the whole system in the 3-4 figures bracket, rather than 5.  Thanks all in anticipation.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on June 06, 2020, 05:43:49 AM
Quote from: DaveF on June 06, 2020, 12:42:19 AMd recommendations for specific equipment would be welcome too - possibly with the whole system in the 3-4 figures bracket, rather than 5.


You may want to consider either a network streamer or an optical disc player that has a USB input. 

For streamers, something like Cocktail Audio (https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=COX14) or Cambridge Audio (https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/products/hi-fi/cx-series-2/cxn) might fit the bill.  For an optical player, something like Panasonic might work (https://shop.panasonic.com/audio-and-video/blu-ray-and-dvd-players/blu-ray-disc-players/DP-UB9000.html).

In both cases, if you copy your downloads to an external HDD, you can then connect the HDD to the streamer/player and listen in your main system.  Plus you'll have a backup of your downloads.

I advise against wireless audio if sound quality is a high priority. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 06, 2020, 05:48:21 AM
Quote from: DaveF on June 06, 2020, 12:42:19 AM
I'm hoping for some advice from the experts here.  Last time I bought a hi-fi system, it was made up of a CD player, amp and speakers, and there may even have been a cassette deck in there.  Now I have probably more than half of my music as downloads, and my entire collection, downloads and 2000+ CDs, ripped to a hard drive.  And I'm almost completely ignorant about how to set up a system to play these.  I gather from reading online (which however quickly seems to plunge me deeper than I would like into technology) that I need a DAC plugged into my PC, with possibly another bit of the same DAC plugged into a receiver.  Can I do this wirelessly, with the PC/drive in one room and the receiver 10m away in another?  And all wireless receivers I look at also seem to have streaming capabilities for Spotify, Amazon Music etc, which I'm not too bothered about - really I just want to play the stuff off my hard drive.  And recommendations for specific equipment would be welcome too - possibly with the whole system in the 3-4 figures bracket, rather than 5.  Thanks all in anticipation.

There are many options ...

For my part I prefer a dedicated Windows PC, (rather than streamer), to play my ripped music files because I like to use the Foobar2000 music player.  The PC is a "mini" PC that resides in the same room as the rest of my system and I can add to my playlist on the fly.  All you need to play music files is a cheap mini-PC or cheap laptop -- I'm not persuaded that streamers are good value in general though lots of people like them.

My dedicated PC in connected to the Internet so I can access Internet radio and any Internet-based streaming service that I might prefer.

In turn the PC feeds a DAC the feeds my amplifier.  I have a CD player, (which I rarely use), that is connected to the DAC, (since the standalone DAC is superior to the CD player's). I also have old AM/FM tuner that is also connected directly to my amplifier.

See the diagram of my arrangement ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: steve ridgway on June 06, 2020, 05:48:40 AM
I copy my music files via USB to an AK Jr music player which plays all sorts of formats through headphones or line output cable into the input of an external amplifier. So it's portable, doesn't need a computer to be running and the sound won't be interrupted by whatever else the computer might do. There are a number of different players available and you'd need to look at storage capacity (some will take micro SD cards), formats supported, line output and quality of the inbuilt DAC.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on June 06, 2020, 12:43:32 PM
Quote from: DaveF on June 06, 2020, 12:42:19 AM
I'm hoping for some advice from the experts here.  Last time I bought a hi-fi system, it was made up of a CD player, amp and speakers, and there may even have been a cassette deck in there.  Now I have probably more than half of my music as downloads, and my entire collection, downloads and 2000+ CDs, ripped to a hard drive.  And I'm almost completely ignorant about how to set up a system to play these.  I gather from reading online (which however quickly seems to plunge me deeper than I would like into technology) that I need a DAC plugged into my PC, with possibly another bit of the same DAC plugged into a receiver.  Can I do this wirelessly, with the PC/drive in one room and the receiver 10m away in another?  And all wireless receivers I look at also seem to have streaming capabilities for Spotify, Amazon Music etc, which I'm not too bothered about - really I just want to play the stuff off my hard drive.  And recommendations for specific equipment would be welcome too - possibly with the whole system in the 3-4 figures bracket, rather than 5.  Thanks all in anticipation.

There are many ways to do this and many different software approaches, but my preferred one for the last 12 years has been the "squeezebox" system.  This consists of a server (Logitech Media Server or LMS) that streams the music on the hard drive to to a client that feeds the DAC.  Small devices like the Raspberry Pi (RPi) are popular for running the client.  This is all pretty much plug-and-play.

An example of how this would work:

- Install LMS on your PC.  It will ask you for the location of your music files and scan them.
- "Burn" the client software to a miniSD card (I prefer piCorePlayer for this, but there are several other choices) and insert it into the RPi.
- Plug the RPi ethernet into your wireless router.  Power it up, find it on the network, and navigate to the piCorePlayer config website to set the wireless password.  You can now use it wirelessly.
- Plug the RPi into a USB DAC connected to your receiver and power it up.
- For a nice modern music playback interface that can be used on mobile phones, tablets, and laptops, install the Material Skin plugin in LMS.

For a high quality USB DAC, I suggest the Topping E30 ($130).

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-e30-dac-review.12119/

Total cost should only be a little over $200 with shipping.

Links:

LMS package: http://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/?ver=7.9
piCorePlayer: https://www.picoreplayer.org/
Raspberry Pi starter kit: https://www.pishop.us/product/raspberry-pi-4b-starter-kit/ (I recommend the 2G version)
Topping E30 USB DAC: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0865GJLB5

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on June 06, 2020, 01:52:07 PM
Quote from: Todd on June 06, 2020, 05:43:49 AM
I advise against wireless audio if sound quality is a high priority.

That's interesting. I've heard that said for Bluetooth but never for WiFi.

I have three systems, two connected to a media server with Ethernet and one wirelessly with WiFi. I may play around some time and see if I can hear any differences.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on June 06, 2020, 01:57:48 PM
Quote from: DaveF on June 06, 2020, 12:42:19 AM
I'm hoping for some advice from the experts here.  Last time I bought a hi-fi system, it was made up of a CD player, amp and speakers, and there may even have been a cassette deck in there.  Now I have probably more than half of my music as downloads, and my entire collection, downloads and 2000+ CDs, ripped to a hard drive.  And I'm almost completely ignorant about how to set up a system to play these.  I gather from reading online (which however quickly seems to plunge me deeper than I would like into technology) that I need a DAC plugged into my PC, with possibly another bit of the same DAC plugged into a receiver.  Can I do this wirelessly, with the PC/drive in one room and the receiver 10m away in another?  And all wireless receivers I look at also seem to have streaming capabilities for Spotify, Amazon Music etc, which I'm not too bothered about - really I just want to play the stuff off my hard drive.  And recommendations for specific equipment would be welcome too - possibly with the whole system in the 3-4 figures bracket, rather than 5.  Thanks all in anticipation.

What Daverz said is what I think, but note that you won't get amazon music with it. I'm sure there is a way, but I don't know it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on June 06, 2020, 02:15:31 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 06, 2020, 01:57:48 PM
What Daverz said is what I think, but note that you won't get amazon music with it. I'm sure there is a way, but I don't know it.

You could use the ShairTunes2 plugin to stream from a device that can use Airtunes.   You have to keep the Amazon app running on your device to keep the music playing, which I don't find practical, so I don't use Amazon Music.  I suggest Qobuz, Tidal or Spotify instead.

An alternative is to get a DAC like the Topping DX3Pro ($220) that supports bluetooth so you can stream Amazon Music from your phone/tablet.  You still need to keep the streaming app running in the background, so it will be constantly sucking battery power on the mobile device.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on June 06, 2020, 02:19:26 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 06, 2020, 01:52:07 PM
That's interesting. I've heard that said for Bluetooth but never for WiFi.

I have three systems, two connected to a media server with Ethernet and one wirelessly with WiFi. I may play around some time and see if I can hear any differences.

Yeah, Wi-Fi is not a problem unless your Wi-Fi is extremely marginal.  Even very hi-res audio (e.g. 24/192, DSD, etc) is not difficult for a decent Wi-Fi connection.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ratliff on June 07, 2020, 10:16:07 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 06, 2020, 01:52:07 PM
That's interesting. I've heard that said for Bluetooth but never for WiFi.

There are different flavors of bluetooth audio but as far as I know all use some sort of lossy compression. A WiFi connection will not introduce any compression loss, but I suppose if it is flakey it could fail to keep up with the data requirements and drop out. Audio data rates are very low compared with typical internet transfer speeds, so I think this is unlikely to happen.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 08, 2020, 06:03:28 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on June 07, 2020, 10:16:07 PM
There are different flavors of bluetooth audio but as far as I know all use some sort of lossy compression. A WiFi connection will not introduce any compression loss, but I suppose if it is flakey it could fail to keep up with the data requirements and drop out. Audio data rates are very low compared with typical internet transfer speeds, so I think this is unlikely to happen.

My experience with WiFi/streaming has been: When it's crunch-time and too many things stress the system, music-reproduction is the first to suffer and you get ugly stutters and artifacts. I've never found it "just working, always". And every time I think, if that was coming from my regular system, I'd find it unacceptable.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2020, 07:16:26 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 08, 2020, 06:03:28 AM
My experience with WiFi/streaming has been: When it's crunch-time and too many things stress the system, music-reproduction is the first to suffer and you get ugly stutters and artifacts. I've never found it "just working, always". And every time I think, if that was coming from my regular system, I'd find it unacceptable.
Yes, that's why two of my systems are wired using powerline ethernet. The third is close enough to the wifi router to work smoothly.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on June 08, 2020, 01:18:47 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 08, 2020, 07:16:26 AM
Yes, that's why two of my systems are wired using powerline ethernet. The third is close enough to the wifi router to work smoothly.

Another option is to use your existing coax cable wiring.  You need a "MoCa" adapter at the router and each access point.

https://www.actiontec.com/wifihelp/wifibooster/how-does-moca-work/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ratliff on June 08, 2020, 01:22:58 PM
In reality, I don't trust any of that stuff. I have a computer (a Mac) with files on a USB hard disc, and I stream (XLD) to a Musical Fidelity gadget that connects to the computer by USB and generates a Toslink (optical) signal for my DAC/CD player. I don't like the idea that a computer (which can be electrically very noisy) is connected to my analog audio electronics. Plus, my CD player/DAC is pretty brain damaged when it comes to computer interfaces and I seem to hear clicks and dropouts when I try to stream directly to it by USB. When I want to listen using a different computer, I don't do any fancy network disc stuff, I just have another USB hard disc with the same files connected to the other computer. Its a bit of a nuisance keeping all of the hard discs up to date, but that adds redundancy. In all I have four copies on different USB hard discs.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on June 08, 2020, 02:14:05 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on June 08, 2020, 01:22:58 PM
In reality, I don't trust any of that stuff. I have a computer (a Mac) with files on a USB hard disc, and I stream (XLD) to a Musical Fidelity gadget that connects to the computer by USB and generates a Toslink (optical) signal for my DAC/CD player. I don't like the idea that a computer (which can be electrically very noisy) is connected to my analog audio electronics. Plus, my CD player/DAC is pretty brain damaged when it comes to computer interfaces and I seem to hear clicks and dropouts when I try to stream directly to it by USB. When I want to listen using a different computer, I don't do any fancy network disc stuff, I just have another USB hard disc with the same files connected to the other computer. Its a bit of a nuisance keeping all of the hard discs up to date, but that adds redundancy. In all I have four copies on different USB hard discs.

USB noise shouldn't get through to the DAC analog output, unless the DAC is really broken.

 

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ratliff on June 08, 2020, 02:38:36 PM
I was willing to try, until the USB input to my CD Player/DAC was flakey (Marantz SA8004).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DaveF on June 10, 2020, 04:52:33 AM
Quote from: Daverz on June 06, 2020, 12:43:32 PM
There are many ways to do this and many different software approaches...

Yes, I was afraid that was going to be the case.  And thanks, all, first of all, for so many and various replies.  It sounds to me, although I may be wrong, that the "simple" method would be the cheap PC/laptop (which I have), with USB hard drive attached holding all the music files, wired via a DAC to a receiver/amp.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ratliff on June 10, 2020, 07:22:25 AM
Quote from: DaveF on June 10, 2020, 04:52:33 AM
Yes, I was afraid that was going to be the case.  And thanks, all, first of all, for so many and various replies.  It sounds to me, although I may be wrong, that the "simple" method would be the cheap PC/laptop (which I have), with USB hard drive attached holding all the music files, wired via a DAC to a receiver/amp.

That would be inexpensive and simple, especially since you already have the PC. When I was using a PC I was used foobar2000. An A/V receiver might be able to accept digital input directly, which means don't need a DAC, just a wire or a gadget that converts USB to Coax or Toslink optical. I seem to recall I had a lenovo laptop which had Toslink available if you attached it to a docking station.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ratliff on June 10, 2020, 07:52:45 AM
Here's a new puzzle. I have a bluray player which has HDMI and digital coax output. I'd like to get a gadget which will take the audio from the digital coax and give me a headphone output. This way I can have the blu ray player on my desk, watch the video on my ordinary computer monitor with HDMI input and listen to the audio on my nice headphones. This is to watch operas I have on bluray. My monitor with HDMI input has a headphone output which would work, which would be fine for a movie, but not for my "audiophile" Opera bluray discs.

There are about a million DAC/Headphone amps with USB input, but I haven't come across many with Coax input. I'm looking for something in the <$100 range. I guess line level output (RCA plugs, etc) would work as well since I have an analog headphone amp I'm not using.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on July 01, 2020, 02:02:42 AM
Quote from: The new erato on June 04, 2020, 05:11:01 AM
I just purchased a used (mint condition) pair of these and now I need to listen to all my discs once again (oh crap):

(http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/sonusfaber_elipsa.jpg)

I am coming to this very late but still I offer my congratulations on such a very fine pair of speakers. I am a Sonus Faber owner as well albeit at the other end of the spectrum. I am sure that you have them well run in now and are really enjoying them.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 27, 2020, 09:43:15 AM
My vacuum tube (valve) amps. Classical and Jazz music sound luminous and three-dimensional.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 27, 2020, 09:43:42 AM
No. 2.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on August 27, 2020, 10:24:48 PM
Do you think there's a distinctive valve amp sound?

They look like two power amps, is that right or is one a pre?

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 28, 2020, 04:05:52 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 27, 2020, 10:24:48 PM
Do you think there's a distinctive valve amp sound?

Of course there is. Vacuum tube amps create quite a lot of harmonic non-linear distortion, the frequency responce is flat on a narrower band (bass and treble roll of), and the output impedance is higher causing limited damping factor for the speakers. The result is softer and warmer sound. It's less high fidelity, but easy to like, because all your recordings get the same colourization. Nothing ever sounds harsh or cold. Everything sounds soft and warm.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on August 28, 2020, 04:42:16 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 27, 2020, 10:24:48 PM
Do you think there's a distinctive valve amp sound?


Different valves also have different "voices" which, in itself, is a whole rabbit hole onto itself.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on August 28, 2020, 06:55:31 AM
Quote from: aligreto on August 28, 2020, 04:42:16 AM
Different valves also have different "voices" which, in itself, is a whole rabbit hole onto itself.

Agreed.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on August 28, 2020, 06:56:32 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 28, 2020, 04:05:52 AM
Of course there is. Vacuum tube amps create quite a lot of harmonic non-linear distortion, the frequency responce is flat on a narrower band (bass and treble roll of), and the output impedance is higher causing limited damping factor for the speakers. The result is softer and warmer sound. It's less high fidelity, but easy to like, because all your recordings get the same colourization. Nothing ever sounds harsh or cold. Everything sounds soft and warm.



I do not believe that my Radford STA 25 distorts the source "more" than my Krell KSA 50, so I don't believe that there is a distinctive valve sound. The Radford does not sound warm and soft, neither does the Krell.

That being said, many valve amps are indeed warm and soft -- but that's a design choice, not a consequence of the technology. I have a solid state amp, an Audio Innovations Alto (original series) which was designed to be warm and soft in the way of Audio Innovations valve amps  -- as indeed was the Quad 303. I guess the Radford STA series were designed to be more transparent.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on August 28, 2020, 07:00:39 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 27, 2020, 09:43:15 AM
My vacuum tube (valve) amps. Classical and Jazz music sound luminous and three-dimensional.

Is the large valve in the centre of the left amp a 300B?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 28, 2020, 07:31:57 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 28, 2020, 07:00:39 AM
Is the large valve in the centre of the left amp a 300B?

It's a rectifier tube, 5z3p. They are two amps of el34/6sl7 and an el84/12ax7 amp. I have a few more tube amps.

P.s. I want a 300b amp.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 28, 2020, 07:48:47 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 27, 2020, 10:24:48 PM
Do you think there's a distinctive valve amp sound?

They look like two power amps, is that right or is one a pre?

They all are integrated amps. First, although I don't feel that my opinion is biased, nobody in the world has totally bias-free opinion. To me, however, the valve sound is more colorful and luminous. Brass and cymbals sound shining. Trumpet and sax sound very fresh and lively. The texture of strings sounds very silky (and shining again). Double bass, very woody. Secondly, the valve sound is realistic. When I hear vocals, they sound like they are singing in my room. Thirdly, valve sound is three dimensional. There is a depth in the sound. Just like a theatrical stage, somethings are at front and somethings are at back. The echo effect is three-dimensional as well.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on August 29, 2020, 07:25:34 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 28, 2020, 07:48:47 AM
They all are integrated amps. First, although I don't feel that my opinion is biased, nobody in the world has totally bias-free opinion. To me, however, the valve sound is more colorful and luminous. Brass and cymbals sound shining. Trumpet and sax sound very fresh and lively. The texture of strings sounds very silky (and shining again). Double bass, very woody. Secondly, the valve sound is realistic. When I hear vocals, they sound like they are singing in my room. Thirdly, valve sound is three dimensional. There is a depth in the sound. Just like a theatrical stage, somethings are at front and somethings are at back. The echo effect is three-dimensional as well.

A lot of these things are also dependent on the way the recording is engineered, don't you think so?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 29, 2020, 08:40:24 AM
Quote from: Herman on August 29, 2020, 07:25:34 AM
A lot of these things are also dependent on the way the recording is engineered, don't you think so?

Yes, recording condition, musical instruments, the range of frequency, structure of listening room, etc. influence the sound of tube amps as well as solid state amp. My description is about the sound of tube amps ceteris paribus.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on August 29, 2020, 10:58:19 AM
Let me ask a question.

Tell me some really outstanding amps which are trouble free. I want an amp which sounds truthful, makes the recording sound a little bit like real music if you're drunk, can make sense of all the partials and timbres and textures, but which I can leave on all the time without worrying, so no valves, no Class A, no room heaters. And nothing which can't be serviced, so no class D, no VFET, nothing made of unobtanium, nothing with no published schematics.

Oh, the amp must also be obtainable in the UK with ease - it's no good if I have to import it from Japan or the States, the cost of duty is prohibitive and I'd be worried about servicing. That being said, I'd be interested in exploring Jap amps - Luxman, Rotel, Accuphase, JVC. . . But not class A!

The speakers I will use are small - Rogers JR 149. Small means hard to drive of course, big impedance. But it also means that the amp must have not just sweet treble, but the ability to really control bass.



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 29, 2020, 11:39:12 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 29, 2020, 10:58:19 AM
Let me ask a question.

Tell me some really outstanding amps which are trouble free. I want an amp which sounds truthful, makes the recording sound a little bit like real music if you're drunk, can make sense of all the partials and timbres and textures, but which I can leave on all the time without worrying, so no valves, no Class A, no room heaters. And nothing which can't be serviced, so no class D, no VFET, nothing made of unobtanium, nothing with no published schematics.

The speakers I will use are small - Rogers JR 149. Small means hard to drive of course, big impedance. But it also means that the amp must have not just sweet treble, but the ability to really control bass.

Well, if you can afford it, get a Bryston.  They have a 20-year, transferable warranty and excellent customer service, so buying used is safe.   For Bryston gear made between 2000 and 2006, you don't even need documentation, they will still service it under warranty.  Make sure to get a receipt for anything made after that. 

https://bryston.com/service-and-warranty/

I love my 3B-SST, which I bought on Audiogon.  It was making a thump noise on turn-off, and I sent it in for repair.  They were very easy to deal with on the phone and turned it around in one day.  I did have to pay for shipping to them.  This was in the US (they are a Canadian company), so I don't know how their customer service is in other countries.

I would also recommend getting handles on the amp.  The 3B series (they are up to 3B-SST^3 or something) is the sweet spot for power vs. weight IMO, but the more powerful 4B seems more popular. 

If I was buying now, though, I'd probably take my chances with something with a class-D module from Hypex or Purifi -- light, powerful, efficient, cool running -- but I don't have any experience with recent class-D amps.  Or if I had more cash, a Benchmark ABH2.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on August 29, 2020, 04:08:12 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 29, 2020, 10:58:19 AM
Let me ask a question.

Tell me some really outstanding amps which are trouble free. I want an amp which sounds truthful, makes the recording sound a little bit like real music if you're drunk, can make sense of all the partials and timbres and textures, but which I can leave on all the time without worrying, so no valves, no Class A, no room heaters. And nothing which can't be serviced, so no class D, no VFET, nothing made of unobtanium, nothing with no published schematics.

Oh, the amp must also be obtainable in the UK with ease - it's no good if I have to import it from Japan or the States, the cost of duty is prohibitive and I'd be worried about servicing. That being said, I'd be interested in exploring Jap amps - Luxman, Rotel, Accuphase, JVC. . . But not class A!

The speakers I will use are small - Rogers JR 149. Small means hard to drive of course, big impedance. But it also means that the amp must have not just sweet treble, but the ability to really control bass.

Now that is a vintage pair of speakers - I believe the MkI version came out around 1980.

There are so many good class AB amps out there you'd be best to buy what comes nearest to your budget. If you can afford something like Naim - go for it. Otherwise it's a toss up between Cambridge, NAD, Arcam, Cyrus, Musical Fidelity, Roksan, Sugden, etc. The later Rotel products bet mixed reviews. The A11 was favourably viewed yet it's bigger siblings (A12, A14) not so much.

I love the Rotel CD player I just bought to the point where I may have to replace my venerable McLaren A150B.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on August 29, 2020, 11:25:41 PM
Quote from: Daverz on August 29, 2020, 11:39:12 AM
Well, if you can afford it, get a Bryston.  They have a 20-year, transferable warranty and excellent customer service, so buying used is safe.   For Bryston gear made between 2000 and 2006, you don't even need documentation, they will still service it under warranty.  Make sure to get a receipt for anything made after that. 

https://bryston.com/service-and-warranty/

I love my 3B-SST, which I bought on Audiogon.  It was making a thump noise on turn-off, and I sent it in for repair.  They were very easy to deal with on the phone and turned it around in one day.  I did have to pay for shipping to them.  This was in the US (they are a Canadian company), so I don't know how their customer service is in other countries.

I would also recommend getting handles on the amp.  The 3B series (they are up to 3B-SST^3 or something) is the sweet spot for power vs. weight IMO, but the more powerful 4B seems more popular. 

If I was buying now, though, I'd probably take my chances with something with a class-D module from Hypex or Purifi -- light, powerful, efficient, cool running -- but I don't have any experience with recent class-D amps.  Or if I had more cash, a Benchmark ABH2.

Thanks, there's a Bryson dealer in London, I may well ask for a demonstration.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on August 29, 2020, 11:34:16 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 29, 2020, 04:08:12 PM
Now that is a vintage pair of speakers - I believe the MkI version came out around 1980.

There are so many good class AB amps out there you'd be best to buy what comes nearest to your budget. If you can afford something like Naim - go for it. Otherwise it's a toss up between Cambridge, NAD, Arcam, Cyrus, Musical Fidelity, Roksan, Sugden, etc. The later Rotel products bet mixed reviews. The A11 was favourably viewed yet it's bigger siblings (A12, A14) not so much.

I love the Rotel CD player I just bought to the point where I may have to replace my venerable McLaren A150B.

Late 1970s, and there's a side of me which would prefer to see them with an amp of the epoch. They were developed with the NAP 120 and for that reason I'm really tempted to get one and see.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on August 30, 2020, 01:38:37 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 28, 2020, 07:31:57 AM

P.s. I want a 300b amp.

Indeed, I have a friend who had one [a Ming Da from China] and it was a beast. It was always interesting to hear it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on August 30, 2020, 05:42:12 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 29, 2020, 11:34:16 PM
Late 1970s, and there's a side of me which would prefer to see them with an amp of the epoch. They were developed with the NAP 120 and for that reason I'm really tempted to get one and see.

Mandryka, if you really want a good amplifier, that can easily handle all speakers you throw at it, even the Quad ESL, I advise you strongly to try the
YAMAHA A-S3200, an analog amplifier. I tried it and its definitely and investment for a long long time, not likely to dissapoint.
Cheers
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 30, 2020, 08:10:33 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on August 30, 2020, 05:42:12 AM
Mandryka, if you really want a good amplifier, that can easily handle all speakers you throw at it, even the Quad ESL, I advise you strongly to try the
YAMAHA A-S3200, an analog amplifier. I tried it and its definitely and investment for a long long time, not likely to dissapoint.
Cheers

Fyi,

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/new-yamaha-a-s3200-integrated-amp
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 30, 2020, 10:19:58 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 29, 2020, 11:25:41 PM
Thanks, there's a Bryson dealer in London, I may well ask for a demonstration.

The caveat is that their newer stuff is pricey.  I'd also check out the Benchmark amp:

https://www.puriteaudio.co.uk/benchmark
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on August 31, 2020, 12:32:24 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on August 30, 2020, 05:42:12 AM
Mandryka, if you really want a good amplifier, that can easily handle all speakers you throw at it, even the Quad ESL, I advise you strongly to try the
YAMAHA A-S3200, an analog amplifier. I tried it and its definitely and investment for a long long time, not likely to dissapoint.
Cheers

Ooooo! I like silver Japanese amps with big power meters! I shall try to hear one soon.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 06, 2020, 02:50:51 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 31, 2020, 12:32:24 AM
Ooooo! I like silver Japanese amps with big power meters! I shall try to hear one soon.

I have their A-S2200 (for about 5 years now) -- with which I am very happy... although I've not done much comparative listening, granted.

Erratum: It's the A-S2100 I have.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on September 06, 2020, 08:09:37 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 31, 2020, 12:32:24 AM
Ooooo! I like silver Japanese amps with big power meters! I shall try to hear one soon.

You should like this, then:

(http://audiophile.no/images/Technics_SU-R1000_and_SC-C70Mk2-6.jpg)

Technics SU-R1000
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 17, 2020, 03:53:25 AM
I recently purchased a new preamplifier and power amp.  I'll assert that they are both low price, high performance, and accordingly, high values components.  High-end products will always have their appeal and some advantages, but they no longer have an exclusive grasp on high performance.

The preamp is Schiit Audio Freya+.  It's a remarkably versatile as well as fine sounding component ... see https://www.schiit.com/products/freya-1 (https://www.schiit.com/products/freya-1)

If you care to, you may read my personal review of the Freya+ on an audio forum ... https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/23/236688.html (https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/23/236688.html)

(https://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=20428&f=xsml-dscf1515.jpg)

The power amp is a Hypex Ncore NC252MP-based amplifier provided, (in my case), by VTV Amplifier located in Ohio, USA ... https://vtvamplifier.com/product/vtv-stereo-amplifier-based-on-hypex-ncore-nc252mp/ (https://vtvamplifier.com/product/vtv-stereo-amplifier-based-on-hypex-ncore-nc252mp/)

If you are so inclined you may read my review of the VTV Purify amplifier here ... https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/23/238411.html (https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/23/238411.html)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 17, 2020, 09:44:15 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on September 17, 2020, 03:53:25 AM
I recently purchased a new preamplifier and power amp.  I'll assert that they are both low price, high performance, and accordingly, high values components.  High-end products will always have their appeal and some advantages, but they no longer have an exclusive grasp on high performance.

The preamp is Schiit Audio Freya+.  It's a remarkably versatile as well as fine sounding component ... see https://www.schiit.com/products/freya-1 (https://www.schiit.com/products/freya-1)

If you care to, you may read my personal review of the Freya+ on an audio forum ... https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/23/236688.html (https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/23/236688.html)

(https://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=20428&f=xsml-dscf1515.jpg)

The power amp is a Hypex Ncore NC252MP-based amplifier provided, (in my case), by VTV Amplifier located in Ohio, USA ... https://vtvamplifier.com/product/vtv-stereo-amplifier-based-on-hypex-ncore-nc252mp/ (https://vtvamplifier.com/product/vtv-stereo-amplifier-based-on-hypex-ncore-nc252mp/)

I have a tube amp with 6sn7. I have vintage 6sn7 tubes of RCA, GE, Sylvania, Ken-Rad, etc, and I am having fun switching among them. I understand, and can fully  imagine, your description of the sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on September 18, 2020, 01:44:54 AM
Quote from: Old San Antone on September 17, 2020, 08:07:12 AM
I just bought a Schlitt Mani for my Thorens TD 318 turntable, which I've just set back up.

(https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/images/mani-front-1920.jpg)

(https://www.vinylengine.com/images/model/thorens_td318.jpg)

I will begin by using a pair of Edifier powered speakers for now.

Nice. Good to see the rejuvenation of another TT.
Do you still hold a stock of old vinyl; smoky jazz or raw roots music?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on September 18, 2020, 05:05:34 AM
Quote from: Old San Antone on September 18, 2020, 04:56:45 AM
I do, not a whole lot, but some jazz, blues and classical (at one time I transferred it all to CD-Rs but some of those, don't know how man y, no longer play).  It is in storage so I will need to go through the boxes/crates and retrieve some favorites.  But I am also buying new 180 gram vinyl of some classics, like Kind of Blue and a few others.  And some artists are releasing their new recordings in vinyl.  I just ordered Bill Frisell's latest, Valentine

I am looking forward to listening once I have all the components set up and contributing to the vinyl thread here.

8)

That's great and wonderful to read. Enjoy the journey and have a little love and patience when setting up the old analogue system; it will reward you well  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 18, 2020, 02:19:37 PM
Quote from: Old San Antone on September 18, 2020, 04:56:45 AM
I just ordered Bill Frisell's latest, Valentine

I am looking forward to listening once I have all the components set up and contributing to the vinyl thread here.

8)

Here's to Bill Frisell!; I'm not quite *yet* ready for Vinyl again, but I'm always ready for Frisell -- and he'd be someone I'd be willing to bring out the old DUAL again and revive it. :-)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: André Le Nôtre on October 14, 2020, 03:17:22 PM
Question about cables. In my main system, I have mixture of Audioquest, Cardas, and MIT, but I am looking for something cost-effective (cheaper) for my desktop/PC system.

For this I have a pair of AudioEngine A2+ powered speakers, which have good quality five-way binding posts. I recently bought a new PC, which greatly improved my sound quality. I am looking at upgrading my cables from the cheapo plastic-coated copper wire that came with the speakers.

I need probably a 1.5M pair, with good EMI, RFI shielding. I am likely to go with spade lugs, but banana plugs are an option too. (Any differences in sound quality?) The low-end Audioquest in this range start at about 150$, but I wonder whether this is overkill for 250$ speakers. I will also likely add the subwoofer as well.

Any suggestions for this application? I don't think everything necessarily needs to be audiophile approved, but I know that quality cable and terminations are not cheap. What brands to you prefer?   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 14, 2020, 06:13:16 PM
Quote from: André Le Nôtre on October 14, 2020, 03:17:22 PM
Question about cables. In my main system, I have mixture of Audioquest, Cardas, and MIT, but I am looking for something cost-effective (cheaper) for my desktop/PC system.

The wire won't make a difference.  I suggest spending the money on something else.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on October 14, 2020, 06:19:04 PM
Quote from: André Le Nôtre on October 14, 2020, 03:17:22 PM
Question about cables. In my main system, I have mixture of Audioquest, Cardas, and MIT, but I am looking for something cost-effective (cheaper) for my desktop/PC system.

For this I have a pair of AudioEngine A2+ powered speakers, which have good quality five-way binding posts. I recently bought a new PC, which greatly improved my sound quality. I am looking at upgrading my cables from the cheapo plastic-coated copper wire that came with the speakers.

I need probably a 1.5M pair, with good EMI, RFI shielding. I am likely to go with spade lugs, but banana plugs are an option too. (Any differences in sound quality?) The low-end Audioquest in this range start at about 150$, but I wonder whether this is overkill for 250$ speakers. I will also likely add the subwoofer as well.

Any suggestions for this application? I don't think everything necessarily needs to be audiophile approved, but I know that quality cable and terminations are not cheap. What brands to you prefer?

For speakers this size this is definitely overkill - I'd be amazed if you could actually hear a difference worth 60% of the cost of the speakers. In fact you will probably hear no difference at all.

The subs are a really good idea. The A2+ has it's own TI DAC but might benefit from a better separate model. This article may be useful

theabsolutesound.com/articles/audioengine-a2-desktop-speakers-and-d3-dac/


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: André Le Nôtre on October 14, 2020, 06:49:44 PM
Thanks, gents. The reason I ask about the cables is that I have a lot of other wires and an ATT 1 gigabit Fiber Gateway near the speakers. Recently, I had a lot of issues with audio interference/noise until I moved the powered speaker away from the gateway. I swapped the two speakers on my computer desk, and the noise is gone (passive speaker now next to gateway), but now I need to find a way to switch L <-> R channels in Windows 10!

Powered speaker does not like being next to the gateway, although the ATT guy told me there would be no issues with wi-fi/gateway in this configuration. Indeed we have excellent wi-fi now (vastly better than that Charter cable garbage).

I had intermittent interference/noise with the A2+s prior to this new setup, but they always seemed to stay below my threshold of annoyance. In any case, I am not thinking that expensive wire will transport me to audio nirvana--I think even the greatest speakers in the world are mediocre from a distance of three feet!--I just want something shielded with good connectors. But again, you're right 60% of the speaker price is nuts, esp. for a desktop system.







Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on October 14, 2020, 09:36:34 PM
Quote from: André Le Nôtre on October 14, 2020, 06:49:44 PM
Thanks, gents. The reason I ask about the cables is that I have a lot of other wires and an ATT 1 gigabit Fiber Gateway near the speakers. Recently, I had a lot of issues with audio interference/noise until I moved the powered speaker away from the gateway. I swapped the two speakers on my computer desk, and the noise is gone (passive speaker now next to gateway), but now I need to find a way to switch L <-> R channels in Windows 10!

Powered speaker does not like being next to the gateway, although the ATT guy told me there would be no issues with wi-fi/gateway in this configuration. Indeed we have excellent wi-fi now (vastly better than that Charter cable garbage).

I had intermittent interference/noise with the A2+s prior to this new setup, but they always seemed to stay below my threshold of annoyance. In any case, I am not thinking that expensive wire will transport me to audio nirvana--I think even the greatest speakers in the world are mediocre from a distance of three feet!--I just want something shielded with good connectors. But again, you're right 60% of the speaker price is nuts, esp. for a desktop system.

A2+s are wireless I believe so I'd think they have their own desktop app. If so, can channel reversal be done via the Audioengine app?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: André Le Nôtre on October 14, 2020, 09:42:37 PM
I guess they have bluetooth capability, but I have 'em wired up. Speaker cables and 3.5 mm plug. I will check into the app. Thanks.

Also, while I have you on the line, can I ask what software you use for screencast lectures? I need something that will allow me easy editing of audio alongside video (slides) so that they are sync-ed up. I also need export to MP4. I have been using Camtasia, but I am increasingly annoyed by the many bugs in this program--that many others have noted! Thanks!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on October 15, 2020, 02:11:17 PM
We use Screencast-O-Matic here at the school and it works well.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on October 17, 2020, 01:23:00 PM
In the mail for me at the moment is a VTA Amplifier Purfi 1ET400A module (https://purifi-audio.com/eigentakt/)-based stereo amp with a Hypex buffer and power supply.  This is the red-hot latest class D amplifier option.

Purfi 1ET400A-based amp are also available from Nord, Apollon, March Audio, Audiophonics, and probably some other providers.  I choose VTV Amplifier (https://vtvamplifier.com/product/vtv-amplifier-stereo-purifi-audio-1et400a-amplifier/) as my source because it was (a) the least expensive and (b) located relatively short distance away in Ohio from my home in southwestern Ontario.

(https://vtvamplifier.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/IMG_8241.jpg)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on October 17, 2020, 11:29:19 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on October 17, 2020, 01:23:00 PM
In the mail for me at the moment is a VTA Amplifier Purfi 1ET400A module (https://purifi-audio.com/eigentakt/)-based stereo amp with a Hypex buffer and power supply.  This is the red-hot latest class D amplifier option.

Purfi 1ET400A-based amp are also available from Nord, Apollon, March Audio, Audiophonics, and probably some other providers.  I choose VTV Amplifier (https://vtvamplifier.com/product/vtv-amplifier-stereo-purifi-audio-1et400a-amplifier/) as my source because it was (a) the least expensive and (b) located relatively short distance away in Ohio from my home in southwestern Ontario.

(https://vtvamplifier.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/IMG_8241.jpg)

When you get it, will you post to say whether it runs hot? It's interesting how class D has started to encroach on the serious audio market, not so long ago they were just fit for subwoofers. One potential problem for expensive ones is serviceability - if the manufacturer goes bust or won't provide parts.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on October 18, 2020, 12:13:07 AM
Which raises a point for me. What's better - Class A or Class D? What's the difference between them? I might have to replace my venerable McLaren A150B soon and am looking at something good but affordable.

NB: My Burson Play DAC/Amp is pure class A and sounds amazing because it has the power to drive virtually any headphone without sounding stressed.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on October 18, 2020, 12:21:16 AM
Quote from: Holden on October 18, 2020, 12:13:07 AM
Which raises a point for me. What's better - Class A or Class D? What's the difference between them? I might have to replace my venerable McLaren A150B soon and am looking at something good but affordable.


Until recently Class D were considered grunt amps, fit only for providing some welly to subwoofers and the lowerst fi active speakers but with no refinement or truthfulness in the midrange and treble. Things have changed though and now some top companies are offering Class D amplification. Whatever it sounds like, you need to remember that serviceability may be a problem as I said above, and price is also a factor. If you buy a class D amp with poor components, designed by accountants rather than audio engineers, it may well have a short life expectancy.  I don't have any class D amps, at some point I will though, because I want to investigate active speakers.

Class A runs hot and is not at all green. Class A is expensive not least because the components are expensive. But designers tell me that it's much easier to design an excellent class A amp than an excellent class A B amp. The best transistor amp I have ever owned is pure class A.

One option to consider is "impure class A" that's to say, Class A for the first watt or two and then class B. I have one of those and I'm glad to have it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on October 18, 2020, 12:21:59 AM
Better in what regard? Electricity bill will certainly be better with class D, and if you need high power output I think this rules out class A unless you are prepared to pay a rather hefty price. Class A requires significantly more space and is less user friendly than most class D systems. If you ignore all that and have the money, I should think most audiophiles would prefer class A. I've heard som Devialets that have impressed me, class D certainly arent't second grade soundwise any more. The Japanese SPEC class D amps are very well regarded by some discerninng audiophiles I know.

Size and usability are key priorities of mine, and the two class D suppliers above would be high on my list if I were to replace any amps I own (A Hegel 200 A/B system in the living room and a mixed system with a CJ MF 2500 A class A/B in the listening room). Never had any regrets with the sound of those either, the Hegel supporting a Sonus Faber Ellipsa, and the CJ supporting alternatively a Dali Euphonia MS 5 and a Vienna Beethoven set in the listening room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on October 24, 2020, 11:12:07 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 17, 2020, 11:29:19 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on October 17, 2020, 01:23:00 PM
In the mail for me at the moment is a VTA Amplifier Purfi 1ET400A module (https://purifi-audio.com/eigentakt/)-based stereo amp with a Hypex buffer and power supply.  This is the red-hot latest class D amplifier option.

Purfi 1ET400A-based amp are also available from Nord, Apollon, March Audio, Audiophonics, and probably some other providers.  I choose VTV Amplifier (https://vtvamplifier.com/product/vtv-amplifier-stereo-purifi-audio-1et400a-amplifier/) as my source because it was (a) the least expensive and (b) located relatively short distance away in Ohio from my home in southwestern Ontario.

(https://vtvamplifier.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/IMG_8241.jpg)

When you get it, will you post to say whether it runs hot? It's interesting how class D has started to encroach on the serious audio market, not so long ago they were just fit for subwoofers. One potential problem for expensive ones is serviceability - if the manufacturer goes bust or won't provide parts.

Well I've received the VTV/Purifi amp and can answer your question, Mandryka.  The Purifi runs pretty much stone cold so I'd say you could safely put it in pretty much any enclosed space.

This Purifi  epitomized the "accurate" amp.  It is super high definition.  Truly, I've never heard violins sound more lifelike, and for that matter Jazz cymbals sound realistic, crystalline brilliance than I've heard before.  On the downside, maybe, it adds no warm and does nothing to mitigate the sound of all-to-common over-bright or otherwise rough recordings.

The long term repair prospects are unclear once the original modules are no longer available.  Of course, the power supplies are replaceable, and there are even now pin-compatible replacements for the buffer modules.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on October 27, 2020, 09:47:19 AM
DALI Epicon 2 speakers
SVS SB13 Ultra sub
McIntosh MA9000 integrated amp
Esoteric K-03 SACD player
VPI Prime Signature turntable/Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge
Sennheiser HD800s, MrSpeaker Aeon headphones
Oppo 205 Blu-ray player
Macbook Pro >Audirvana>DAC in McIntosh

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.idealav.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F10%2Fdali-epicon-2-ruby.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fbestsubwooferreviews.net%2Fimg%2Fsvs-pb13-ultra-13-inch-1000-watt-powered-subwoofer_2659_500.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifinews.com%2Fimages%2F918mac.promo_.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftheaudiosolutions.com%2Fimage%2Fcache%2Fcatalog%2FVPI_Prime_Signature_Turntable_03-500x500.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.maplatine.com%2Fen%2F2266-thickbox_default%2Fortofon-cadenza-bronze-mc-cartridge.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fksassets.timeincuk.net%2Fwp%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F54%2F2016%2F07%2Fsennheiser-hd800s-3-4.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmajorhifi.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FMrSpeakers-AEON-Flow-Open.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on October 27, 2020, 10:53:37 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on October 24, 2020, 11:12:07 AM
When you get it, will you post to say whether it runs hot? It's interesting how class D has started to encroach on the serious audio market, not so long ago they were just fit for subwoofers. One potential problem for expensive ones is serviceability - if the manufacturer goes bust or won't provide parts.


Well I've received the VTV/Purifi amp and can answer your question, Mandryka.  The Purifi runs pretty much stone cold so I'd say you could safely put it in pretty much any enclosed space.

This Purifi  epitomized the "accurate" amp.  It is super high definition.  Truly, I've never heard violins sound more lifelike, and for that matter Jazz cymbals sound realistic, crystalline brilliance than I've heard before.  On the downside, maybe, it adds no warm and does nothing to mitigate the sound of all-to-common over-bright or otherwise rough recordings.

The long term repair prospects are unclear once the original modules are no longer available.  Of course, the power supplies are replaceable, and there are even now pin-compatible replacements for the buffer modules.

Interesting. Post again please in a couple of months time. The reason I say this is that someone I know with some Class D said to me recently that initially he was impressed with their brilliance  and sense of revealing all the music. But after a  few months he started to find the whole experience tiring. The problem could have been the way the amp was reacting to his speakers, which were a large load (electrostatics.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on October 28, 2020, 12:50:22 AM
Quote from: Toccata and Fugue on October 27, 2020, 09:47:19 AM
DALI Epicon 2 speakers
SVS SB13 Ultra sub
McIntosh MA9000 integrated amp
Esoteric K-03 SACD player
VPI Prime Signature turntable/Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge
Sennheiser HD800s, MrSpeaker Aeon headphones
Oppo 205 Blu-ray player
Macbook Pro >Audirvana>DAC in McIntosh

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.idealav.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F10%2Fdali-epicon-2-ruby.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fbestsubwooferreviews.net%2Fimg%2Fsvs-pb13-ultra-13-inch-1000-watt-powered-subwoofer_2659_500.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifinews.com%2Fimages%2F918mac.promo_.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftheaudiosolutions.com%2Fimage%2Fcache%2Fcatalog%2FVPI_Prime_Signature_Turntable_03-500x500.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.maplatine.com%2Fen%2F2266-thickbox_default%2Fortofon-cadenza-bronze-mc-cartridge.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fksassets.timeincuk.net%2Fwp%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F54%2F2016%2F07%2Fsennheiser-hd800s-3-4.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmajorhifi.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FMrSpeakers-AEON-Flow-Open.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)

Very nice.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on October 29, 2020, 03:32:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 27, 2020, 10:53:37 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on October 24, 2020, 11:12:07 AM
Quote from: Mandryka
When you get it, will you post to say whether it runs hot? It's interesting how class D has started to encroach on the serious audio market, not so long ago they were just fit for subwoofers. One potential problem for expensive ones is serviceability - if the manufacturer goes bust or won't provide parts.

Well I've received the VTV/Purifi amp and can answer your question, Mandryka.  The Purifi runs pretty much stone cold so I'd say you could safely put it in pretty much any enclosed space.

This Purifi  epitomized the "accurate" amp.  It is super high definition.  Truly, I've never heard violins sound more lifelike, and for that matter Jazz cymbals sound realistic, crystalline brilliance than I've heard before.  On the downside, maybe, it adds no warm and does nothing to mitigate the sound of all-to-common over-bright or otherwise rough recordings.

The long term repair prospects are unclear once the original modules are no longer available.  Of course, the power supplies are replaceable, and there are even now pin-compatible replacements for the buffer modules.

Interesting. Post again please in a couple of months time. The reason I say this is that someone I know with some Class D said to me recently that initially he was impressed with their brilliance  and sense of revealing all the music. But after a  few months he started to find the whole experience tiring. The problem could have been the way the amp was reacting to his speakers, which were a large load (electrostatics.)

I know an individual on another forum who runs Sound Lab U-1PX electrostatics which are a highly reactive load.  He tried a Hypex NC502MP amp with them and found they didn't work well, especially in the treble.  So that might explain your acquaintance's experience.  However he is please with it in another system with dynamic driver speakers.  For my part, my speakers, Zaph Audio ZRT's are an extremely benign, non-reactive 8 ohm load.

However a certain brilliance is, (based on reports from many audiophiles), a characteristic of very low distortion amplifiers.  Many high-end amps are designed to allow some 2nd and/or 3rd order harmonic distortion, usually while trying to minimized higher-order distortion.  This was true of the Pass Labs X150.5 amp I was using 'till recently -- it remains to be seen how well I adapt to the difference sound.  I'll let you know.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 21, 2020, 02:00:07 AM
Soon a Esoteric CD player will arrive, for testing, and if I like it buy. I would like to invite comments, negative or positive.

esoteric K-05 XS.

Thank you.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 21, 2020, 03:11:38 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on December 21, 2020, 02:00:07 AM
Soon a Esoteric CD player will arrive, for testing, and if I like it buy. I would like to invite comments, negative or positive.

esoteric K-05 XS.

Thank you.

What does it do that $200 bluray player doesn't?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on December 21, 2020, 03:29:09 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 21, 2020, 03:11:38 AM
What does it do that $200 bluray player doesn't?
Sound superbly. Have you ever listened to the difference between various CD and SACD players on a great rig? I have currently 5 players in various price ranges distributed between 3 setups in various rooms/locations, and they all sound slightly different,

If the difference is worth the cost is another and strictly personal matter.

But I'll give you, they all play discs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 21, 2020, 03:32:25 AM
Quote from: The new erato on December 21, 2020, 03:29:09 AM
Sound superbly. Have you ever listened to the difference between various CD and SACD players on a great rig? I have currently 5 players in various price ranges distributed between 3 setups in various rooms/locations, and they all sound slightly different,

If the difference is worth the cost is another and strictly personal matter.

But I'll give you, they all play discs.

At the moment I have the latest Nu-Vista player, which is in the same price range.  In that config I will listen to the esoteric player.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Brass Hole on December 21, 2020, 04:43:30 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on December 21, 2020, 02:00:07 AM
Soon a Esoteric CD player will arrive, for testing, and if I like it buy. I would like to invite comments, negative or positive.

esoteric K-05 XS.

Thank you.

I have a lot of Esoteric edition SACDs. Even their discs sound better than other SACDs.  :) They are the crown jewels of my collection in sound quality.

https://www.esoteric.jp/en/category/super_audio_cd (https://www.esoteric.jp/en/category/super_audio_cd)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on December 21, 2020, 05:17:49 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on December 21, 2020, 02:00:07 AM
Soon a Esoteric CD player will arrive, for testing, and if I like it buy. I would like to invite comments, negative or positive.

esoteric K-05 XS.

Thank you.

Expect plenty of very pleasurable listening. I got an X-03SE nigh on 15 years ago and it is an essential piece in my system.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on December 21, 2020, 11:04:57 AM
Anyone had any experience of the old Accuphase P300 power amp?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 21, 2020, 11:59:45 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on December 21, 2020, 03:32:25 AM
At the moment I have the latest Nu-Vista player, which is in the same price range.  In that config I will listen to the esoteric player.

My word Harry - I hope that you have a good trade-in!  8)  Assume that is the SACD player shown below - looking forward to your comments.  Dave :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-5mqxKcZ/0/f9025293/O/EsotericCD.png)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 02:31:30 PM
I've pretty much gone 'discless' since I've been ripping much of collection to my Mac. I seldom play my stereo these days unless I'm watching a movie or TV show.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 21, 2020, 02:40:16 PM
Quote from: The new erato on December 21, 2020, 03:29:09 AM
Sound superbly. Have you ever listened to the difference between various CD and SACD players on a great rig? I have currently 5 players in various price ranges distributed between 3 setups in various rooms/locations, and they all sound slightly different,

If the difference is worth the cost is another and strictly personal matter.

But I'll give you, they all play discs.

I have my own experience of chasing high-end sound, though at a lower price point, at least for CD players and DACs (I've spent more on speakers, tube gear, and turntables).  I think the differences in digital playback are illusory.


 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on December 23, 2020, 07:09:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 27, 2020, 10:53:37 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on October 24, 2020, 11:12:07 AM
Well I've received the VTV/Purifi amp and can answer your question, Mandryka.  The Purifi runs pretty much stone cold so I'd say you could safely put it in pretty much any enclosed space.

This Purifi  epitomized the "accurate" amp.  It is super high definition.  Truly, I've never heard violins sound more lifelike, and for that matter Jazz cymbals sound realistic, crystalline brilliance than I've heard before.  On the downside, maybe, it adds no warm and does nothing to mitigate the sound of all-to-common over-bright or otherwise rough recordings.

The long term repair prospects are unclear once the original modules are no longer available.  Of course, the power supplies are replaceable, and there are even now pin-compatible replacements for the buffer modules.

Interesting. Post again please in a couple of months time. The reason I say this is that someone I know with some Class D said to me recently that initially he was impressed with their brilliance  and sense of revealing all the music. But after a  few months he started to find the whole experience tiring. The problem could have been the way the amp was reacting to his speakers, which were a large load (electrostatics.)

So your acquaintance is correct about the brilliance being tiring ... and it's not just for electrostatics.  The Purifi amp is VERY revealing of the bad in recordings as well as the good.  Purifi offers no compromise  It's a struggle to listen in particular to overly-bright recordings -- and there are far too many of those.

An option I'm considering is installing Burson V6 op amps on the VTV buffer board in place of the present Sparkos SS3602's.  I believe that the Burson have higher distortion than the Sparkos, but mostly 2nd and 3rd order harmonics which can mask harshness from both recordings and other equipment.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2021, 06:14:11 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/Yf7qtcc/301-DAA52-4670-4976-B0-A9-49-D8-D5-FD9-B73.jpg)

Just arrived on 14 day approval, Conrad Johnson MF80. Try not to notice the mess!

Bloody hell, it's heavy! It feels as heavy as the Krell but more awkward to move because it doesn't have handles!

First impressions with Spendor SP1s.

Image is good - no sense of music coming out of a box, all the singers in a motet by Josquin firmly in their place, even when there are, for example, eight of them singing different lines of music. Depth to the image too. There's more of a feeling of people making music in a real space, a room ambience.

Certainly better bass than with the Rotel that I was using before. Not too bright, the sound seems well balanced.

This is not a grey and lifeless amp at all.

Will live with it for a few days and report back. I think it's a winner, positive feelings so far (after an hour!)

It's a gentleman of an amp. It is refined, nuanced and civilised. It's certainly not a monster, and it's not a pussy cat. It is an American gentleman.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: T. D. on January 14, 2021, 06:21:12 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 14, 2021, 06:14:11 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/Yf7qtcc/301-DAA52-4670-4976-B0-A9-49-D8-D5-FD9-B73.jpg)

Just arrived on 14 day approval, Conrad Johnson MF80. Try not to notice the mess!

Bloody hell, it's heavy! It feels as heavy as the Krell but more awkward to move because it doesn't have handles!

First impressions with Spendor SP1s.

Image is good - no sense of music coming out of a box, all the singers in a motet by Josquin firmly in their place, even when there are, for example, eight of them singing different lines of music. Depth to the image too. There's more of a feeling of people making music in a real space, a room ambience.

Certainly better bass than with the Rotel that I was using before. Not too bright, the sound seems well balanced.

This is not a grey and lifeless amp at all.

Will live with it for a few days and report back. I think it's a winner, positive feelings so far (after an hour!)

It's a gentleman of an amp. It is refined, nuanced and civilised. It's certainly not a monster, and it's not a pussy cat. It is an American gentleman.

Congratulations, nice gear. I believe Rotel amps are known for having a "bright" sound. I have a Rotel integrated amp.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2021, 07:30:25 AM
It is certainly bringing Stockhausen's 1998 Momente to life!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 14, 2021, 07:47:27 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 14, 2021, 07:30:25 AM
It is certainly bringing Stockhausen's 1998 Momente to life!
Glad that you are having fun trying out a new component.

Neat fireplace surround!  I trust that you don't use it (due to where your speaker is placed)?  Or do they normally reside (and do their duty) elsewhere?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 14, 2021, 08:00:24 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 14, 2021, 06:14:11 AM

First impressions with Spendor SP1s.

Those Spendors are big.  But couldn't they have made them big enough to reach the floor? ;)

I'm done with massive class A amps.  If my class A/B Bryston ever gives out, I'm going with class D.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2021, 08:20:17 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 14, 2021, 07:47:27 AM
Glad that you are having fun trying out a new component.

Neat fireplace surround!  I trust that you don't use it (due to where your speaker is placed)?  Or do they normally reside (and do their duty) elsewhere?

PD

I make a fire there all the time when it's cold. The speakers don't get hot -- these old fashioned fireplaces are so inefficient, you hardly get hot if you're right on top of it! Remember Tom Brown's Schooldays, when Flashman roasted him on one. 

(https://nostalgiacentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/tombrowns09.jpg)

There used to be a pub in Oxford, I forget the name now, The Boar maybe, which had a huge log fire in the winter. If you were twelve inches away, you'd be warm, If you were three feet away, you'd be cold.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 14, 2021, 08:58:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 14, 2021, 08:20:17 AM
I make a fire there all the time when it's cold. The speakers don't get hot -- these old fashioned fireplaces are so inefficient, you hardly get hot if you're right on top of it! Remember Tom Brown's Schooldays, when Flashman roasted him on one. 

There used to be a pub in Oxford, I forget the name now, The Boar maybe, which had a huge log fire in the winter. If you were twelve inches away, you'd be warm, If you were three feet away, you'd be cold.
No, I don't recall reading or watching it...sorry.  Hope that your damper fits and works well then so that you aren't losing a lot of heat up the chimney.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 18, 2021, 04:42:42 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 02:31:30 PM
I've pretty much gone 'discless' since I've been ripping much of collection to my Mac. I seldom play my stereo these days unless I'm watching a movie or TV show.

Same.  I have ripped cds, digital downloads and streaming.  I don't have a cd collection anymore and have not for 2 1/2 years.  I just use external dacs and I can connect computers, phones, tablets whatever and have first rate sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 19, 2021, 03:06:35 PM
Anyway I have a Marantz amp, Kef speakers and an SMSL dac. I just now upgraded my Kef bookshelves to Paradigm towers. I was using an svs sub but no more.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 21, 2021, 04:27:07 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 18, 2021, 04:42:42 PM
Same.  I have ripped cds, digital downloads and streaming.  I don't have a cd collection anymore and have not for 2 1/2 years.  I just use external dacs and I can connect computers, phones, tablets whatever and have first rate sound.

Do you download mainly high resolution, (higher than 16/44.1)?  While I totally believe that the recording & mastering are far more important to the result than resolution per se, some instances of hi-rez make mre thing it can sound better -- this is especially true now that I have a near SOTA low distortion repro chain.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 21, 2021, 05:31:16 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 21, 2021, 04:27:07 AM
Do you download mainly high resolution, (higher than 16/44.1)?  While I totally believe that the recording & mastering are far more important to the result than resolution per se, some instances of hi-rez make mre thing it can sound better -- this is especially true now that I have a near SOTA low distortion repro chain.

My only downloads are from Hyperion Records since they don't stream and those are all 16/44.1 flac.  My streaming where 99.99% of my listening is from is frequently high res since I have a subscription to Qobuz.  I can't tell the difference.  I can hear the differences between speakers and headphones with ease.  Amps with some effort.  DACs with considerable effort.  And differences in source not at all.  The only times I could was the occasional dodgy master on Spotify where there was clipping or distortion and I switch to Qobuz or Primephonic and it's fine.  I'm not even sensitive to analog hiss in older recordings anymore when I used to be since my sensitivity to treble has fallen off with age.  And in fact I listen to those older recordings more often because they are likely to put the microphones where I could actually sit in the concert hall instead of in the middle of the orchestra.

I should probably make more of an effort to support the industry by purchasing music now and then.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 21, 2021, 07:12:02 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 21, 2021, 04:27:07 AM
Do you download mainly high resolution, (higher than 16/44.1)?  While I totally believe that the recording & mastering are far more important to the result than resolution per se, some instances of hi-rez make mre thing it can sound better -- this is especially true now that I have a near SOTA low distortion repro chain.

Recording & mastering are everything. Hi-Res consumer audio exists to milk gullible audiophools wanting to "upgrade" their audio gear and music collection again and again... ...the truth is when you have a well recorded and mastered recording at 44.1/16 played with good audio gear, high quality speakers in a room with good acoustics you are pretty much done.  $:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 21, 2021, 10:37:33 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 21, 2021, 05:31:16 AM
My only downloads are from Hyperion Records since they don't stream and those are all 16/44.1 flac.  My streaming where 99.99% of my listening is from is frequently high res since I have a subscription to Qobuz.  I can't tell the difference.  I can hear the differences between speakers and headphones with ease.  Amps with some effort.  DACs with considerable effort.  And differences in source not at all.  The only times I could was the occasional dodgy master on Spotify where there was clipping or distortion and I switch to Qobuz or Primephonic and it's fine.  I'm not even sensitive to analog hiss in older recordings anymore when I used to be since my sensitivity to treble has fallen off with age.  And in fact I listen to those older recordings more often because they are likely to put the microphones where I could actually sit in the concert hall instead of in the middle of the orchestra.

I couldn't agree more about the "perspective" issue:  I want to hear on records what I am likely to hear from my place in the audience.  That said, there are some fine newer recordings.

I don't download much but much more often buy a CD though I immediately rip it to FLAC.  A good recording is far more relevant than whether it's "Red Book" or hi-rez.

I don't stream.  Mostly that's because I don't find the streaming services' interface very Classical listener-friendly.

I should probably make more of an effort to support the industry by purchasing music now and then.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 21, 2021, 10:45:04 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 21, 2021, 07:12:02 AM
Recording & mastering are everything. Hi-Res consumer audio exists to milk gullible audiophools wanting to "upgrade" their audio gear and music collection again and again... ...the truth is when you have a well recorded and mastered recording at 44.1/16 played with good audio gear, high quality speakers in a room with good acoustics you are pretty much done.  $:)

I strongly tend to agree ... Although a couple of days ago I listen to M. Tilson Thomas' Mahler 5th at 24/96 and -- as it seemed to me -- it sounded better than his Mahler 1st at 16/44.1.  Could just be my audiophile imagination at work, of course. ::)

Further, I should say I never heard a difference between the two before I got my Purifi 1ET400A-based amplifier, but again ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 21, 2021, 11:44:41 AM
I also have a large collection of flacs from cd rips.  You should check out Idagio or Primephonic.  They are classical music streaming services and have far superior curation and searching as compared to the mainstream services.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 21, 2021, 12:28:02 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 21, 2021, 10:45:04 AM
I strongly tend to agree ... Although a couple of days ago I listen to M. Tilson Thomas' Mahler 5th at 24/96 and -- as it seemed to me -- it sounded better than his Mahler 1st at 16/44.1.  Could just be my audiophile imagination at work, of course. ::)

Further, I should say I never heard a difference between the two before I got my Purifi 1ET400A-based amplifier, but again ...

You can't compare different recordings (and even works!) to compare audio formats. Make a 44.1/16 downsampled version of the Mahler 5th 96/24 and compare those two. I quarantee you won't hear any difference and if you do it's all placebo (will disappear in blind tests).

Digital audio works a lot against intuition and that's why there are lots of misunderstandings about digital audio among people. It seems to be difficult for people to understand that for example bit depth doesn't affect fidelity such as distortion and precision of waveform. It affects noise floor. Less bit depth means higher noise floor. If you make a properly dithered 8 bit downmix of a higher bit version it will have the exact same fidelity! The reason why it sounds crap and why we don't use 8 bit audio is because it has very high noise floor. Consumer audio needs about 80 dB (~13 bits ) of dynamic range to meet the most demanding listening scenarios (very loud listening levels in very quiet listening room). Using shaped dither noise digital audio can be made perceptually to have more bits than there are technically. Given these facts it's easy to conclude 16 bit digital audio has at least 3 bits more of dynamic range than needed in even the most demanding listening situations assuming the dynamic range is used optimally. However, when hi-res recordings are truncated into 16 bit format, shaped dither is almost always used (e.g. Sony's super bit mapping) increasing perceptual dynamic range by a few bits. This is why people never hear the digital noise floor of 16 bit audio. Whatever noise they hear is part of the original recording. The sampling rate subject is more complicated and it's a bit controversal how much the brickwall filtering at 20 kHz with 44.1 kHz digital audio affects fidelity, but the fact that it's controversal tells how small of an issue it is. I can tell apart the five selectable reconstruction filters of my CD player when I use headphones and no oversampling because the filters affect high frequency phase response. Then again, it's merely a very small change in the width in the stereo image. The way music is produced and mixed affect stereo image much much more and oversampling pretty much eliminates this issue.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 22, 2021, 05:31:56 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 21, 2021, 12:28:02 PM
You can't compare different recordings (and even works!) to compare audio formats. Make a 44.1/16 downsampled version of the Mahler 5th 96/24 and compare those two. I quarantee you won't hear any difference and if you do it's all placebo (will disappear in blind tests).

Digital audio works a lot against intuition and that's why there are lots of misunderstandings about digital audio among people. It seems to be difficult for people to understand that for example bit depth doesn't affect fidelity such as distortion and precision of waveform. It affects noise floor. Less bit depth means higher noise floor. If you make a properly dithered 8 bit downmix of a higher bit version it will have the exact same fidelity! The reason why it sounds crap and why we don't use 8 bit audio is because it has very high noise floor. Consumer audio needs about 80 dB (~13 bits ) of dynamic range to meet the most demanding listening scenarios (very loud listening levels in very quiet listening room). Using shaped dither noise digital audio can be made perceptually to have more bits than there are technically. Given these facts it's easy to conclude 16 bit digital audio has at least 3 bits more of dynamic range than needed in even the most demanding listening situations assuming the dynamic range is used optimally. However, when hi-res recordings are truncated into 16 bit format, shaped dither is almost always used (e.g. Sony's super bit mapping) increasing perceptual dynamic range by a few bits. This is why people never hear the digital noise floor of 16 bit audio. Whatever noise they hear is part of the original recording. The sampling rate subject is more complicated and it's a bit controversal how much the brickwall filtering at 20 kHz with 44.1 kHz digital audio affects fidelity, but the fact that it's controversal tells how small of an issue it is. I can tell apart the five selectable reconstruction filters of my CD player when I use headphones and no oversampling because the filters affect high frequency phase response. Then again, it's merely a very small change in the width in the stereo image. The way music is produced and mixed affect stereo image much much more and oversampling pretty much eliminates this issue.

I might, as you suggest, created a downsampled version of a couple of movements of that Tilson Thomas/Mahler 5th just to see.  I'm certainly NOT going to argue that they will sound different.  I was only conveying my impression.  Then again at my age I am stone deaf above 10kHz.

My Topping D90 DAC uses the AK4499 chip with selectable filters;  I've never used anything other than the default, (whatever that is), since I have been satisfied with what I'm hearing.

Again, I agree recording & mastering are what make a great recording, not the digital depth.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 22, 2021, 07:30:32 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 22, 2021, 05:31:56 AM
I might, as you suggest, created a downsampled version of a couple of movements of that Tilson Thomas/Mahler 5th just to see.  I'm certainly NOT going to argue that they will sound different.  I was only conveying my impression.  Then again at my age I am stone deaf above 10kHz.

Yes. I didn't write my post only for you, but as general education as some people keep insisting hi-res audio has more fidelity than good old 44.1/16.

Quote from: Fëanor on January 22, 2021, 05:31:56 AMMy Topping D90 DAC uses the AK4499 chip with selectable filters;  I've never used anything other than the default, (whatever that is), since I have been satisfied with what I'm hearing.

The default filter is the brick wall filter meaning it goes straight up to 20 kHz and then drops like a rock! Good frequency and phase response, but bad impulse response (major pre- and post ringing). The other filters provide other kind of compromises, such as rounder filter that starts to drop at around 15 kHz, but has better impulse response with milder ringing and possible only post ringing (minimum phase filter that is "analog-like"). Try them out and then you know how they work and which one you like the best.

Quote from: Fëanor on January 22, 2021, 05:31:56 AMAgain, I agree recording & mastering are what make a great recording, not the digital depth.

0:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 22, 2021, 11:34:26 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 22, 2021, 07:30:32 AM
Yes. I didn't write my post only for you, but as general education as some people keep insisting hi-res audio has more fidelity than good old 44.1/16.

The default filter is the brick wall filter meaning it goes straight up to 20 kHz and then drops like a rock! Good frequency and phase response, but bad impulse response (major pre- and post ringing). The other filters provide other kind of compromises, such as rounder filter that starts to drop at around 15 kHz, but has better impulse response with milder ringing and possible only post ringing (minimum phase filter that is "analog-like"). Try them out and then you know how they work and which one you like the best.

0:)

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/01/audiophile-myth-260-detestable-digital.html

"The key here is to remember that within a properly bandwidth limited signal where all the frequencies are below Nyquist, a linear phase FIR filter actually does not create ringing regardless of the impulse response appearance. As I have said in the previous weeks, any decent recording will follow this rule. And if it does, then the ideal filter to use is clearly a linear phase, sharp filter that can reconstruct all the frequencies in the audio data with essentially ideal temporal resolution."

The whole pre-ringing FUD about brickwall filters is based on misinformation.  Please don't propagate this BS.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 22, 2021, 06:05:10 PM
Quote from: Daverz on January 22, 2021, 11:34:26 AM
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/01/audiophile-myth-260-detestable-digital.html

"The key here is to remember that within a properly bandwidth limited signal where all the frequencies are below Nyquist, a linear phase FIR filter actually does not create ringing regardless of the impulse response appearance. As I have said in the previous weeks, any decent recording will follow this rule. And if it does, then the ideal filter to use is clearly a linear phase, sharp filter that can reconstruct all the frequencies in the audio data with essentially ideal temporal resolution."

The whole pre-ringing FUD about brickwall filters is based on misinformation.  Please don't propagate this BS.

Oops, looks like I wasnt clear enough about what I mean: The filter impulse response has ringing. That's self-evident, as the only impulse response without ringing is impulse itself which requires infinite bandwidth, which in turn is not even close what we have in digital audio. When the signal gets reconstructed we have a sum of these sinc-shaped responses weighted by the sample points at sampling rate distance from each other. What happens is the ringing of all these impulse responses nullify each other.

Of course the default linear phase (constant group delay) filter is the "correct one", but that doesn't mean someone can't prefer less "correct" options for whatever reason.

Btw, talking about audio myths, the belief of digital audio having limited temporal resolution set by the sampling rate is incorrect. Temporal resolution of digital audio is practically infinite only limited by the quantization noise, but then again you probably mean non- linear phase filter cause spectal components to spread a little bit in time as the group delay in not constant, but frequency-dependent.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 23, 2021, 07:17:01 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 22, 2021, 06:05:10 PM
Btw, talking about audio myths, the belief of digital audio having limited temporal resolution set by the sampling rate is incorrect.

It doesn't help that major hifi companies and record labels frequently show a picture showing discretized sine curves when they know that is not at all how PCM works.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 23, 2021, 11:03:12 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 23, 2021, 07:17:01 AM
It doesn't help that major hifi companies and record labels frequently show a picture showing discretized sine curves when they know that is not at all how PCM works.

I think that's why we get these ridiculous digital transfers of analog recordings with a 192 kHz sampling rate.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 23, 2021, 11:48:04 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 23, 2021, 07:17:01 AM
It doesn't help that major hifi companies and record labels frequently show a picture showing discretized sine curves when they know that is not at all how PCM works.

The most devious "staircase" in the World: It makes people think they understand digital audio. I was a "staircase believer" too before learning about digital audio and signal processing in university.

Quote from: Daverz on January 23, 2021, 11:03:12 AM
I think that's why we get these ridiculous digital transfers of analog recordings with a 192 kHz sampling rate.

As I said, it's a neat way to milk audiophools...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 27, 2021, 05:45:15 PM
Well I love my Paradigm speakers.  I also upgraded the amp.  Today I replaced my Marantz avr with an NAD power amp.  And guess what?  It made a difference.  Much better dynamics.  And the speakers resolved microphonic detail.  In my naivety I thought only good headphones could do that.  I could hear someone cough from a great distance.  I not only could hear Bernstein turn the page in the score, I could hear other players do the same as well. 

I only have one last upgrade for my stereo and then it is complete.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 28, 2021, 03:03:16 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 27, 2021, 05:45:15 PM
Well I love my Paradigm speakers.  I also upgraded the amp.  Today I replaced my Marantz avr with an NAD power amp.  And guess what?  It made a difference.  Much better dynamics.  And the speakers resolved microphonic detail.  In my naivety I thought only good headphones could do that.  I could hear someone cough from a great distance.  I not only could hear Bernstein turn the page in the score, I could hear other players do the same as well. 

I only have one last upgrade for my stereo and then it is complete.

What NAD model do you have?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 28, 2021, 05:20:20 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 28, 2021, 03:03:16 AM
What NAD model do you have?

The C268 which is a stereo power amp.  I don't need more channels it is just for 2 channel music listening.  That model received a recommended rating from ASR.  I looked at an Emotiva one but couldn't find enough substantive reviews and measurements.  The other thing I looked at it was buying two Outlaw Audio monoblocks, but they're already unavailable!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 29, 2021, 12:04:27 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 28, 2021, 05:20:20 AM
The C268 which is a stereo power amp.  I don't need more channels it is just for 2 channel music listening.  That model received a recommended rating from ASR.  I looked at an Emotiva one but couldn't find enough substantive reviews and measurements.  The other thing I looked at it was buying two Outlaw Audio monoblocks, but they're already unavailable!

Okay. Nothing wrong with a stereo setup. It's easier to do well than multichannel system and most of recorded music tends to be in stereo or mono. A little more than year ago when my multichannel amp (NAD T762) stopped working properly I considered going stereo (because most of my listening is with headphones anyway, but I bought NAD T758. It was a catastrophic hit economically, but what do you do? Life without hi-fi is not worth living...  :P
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 29, 2021, 12:27:31 PM
Funny:  sometimes what goes around comes around.  Nine years ago I sold my Sonic Frontiers Line 1 preamplifier.  I came to regret selling it.  (These tube preamps were made in Canada;  they have been out of production for about 20 years but are still expertly serviced by the original owner and technicians.)

Recently a member on a an audiophile forum offered one for sale;  my nostalgia got the better of me and I bought.  At the moment I awaiting delivery.

My original Sonic Frontiers Line 1, (the round thing is the remote control) ...

(https://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=20428&f=smlx_canon_-_sonicfrontiers_019.jpg)

My forthcoming "new" SF Line 1;  (yes, I like the black face place better but what the heck) ...

(https://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=20428&f=smlx_sf_3.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 29, 2021, 02:21:16 PM
I've been down that road before of buying something old and out of production out of nostalgia. It is always good until it breaks.  Hopefully that won't happen to your preamp.  Mostly what I get is nostalgia drives the purchase but then the experience makes me realize how truly fomo and thinking new is much better drives purchasing decisions.  What I'm saying is that the old stuff is still great.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 29, 2021, 04:00:49 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 29, 2021, 02:21:16 PM
I've been down that road before of buying something old and out of production out of nostalgia. It is always good until it breaks.  Hopefully that won't happen to your preamp.  Mostly what I get is nostalgia drives the purchase but then the experience makes me realize how truly fomo and thinking new is much better drives purchasing decisions.  What I'm saying is that the old stuff is still great.

Unfortunately in this day & age lots of electronics are inherently unrepairable:  the paradigm is, if it breaks get a new one.  Few things are repairable forever except the most primitive sort.

At least in the case of my Sonic Frontiers preamp, the owner of Parts Connexion (https://www.partsconnexion.com/) and an original founder of Sonic Frontiers, assured me just a few days ago that it was fully repairable.  Needless to say this situation won't last forever either but it's probably good for a few years.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 30, 2021, 08:00:01 AM
Yes fingers crossed it lasts.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 30, 2021, 11:51:04 AM
I told myself I was off this merry-go-round, but I hooked up my tube monoblock amps again, and boy they sound wonderful with my latest setup (measurements for these are horrendous, though.  They are distortion generators).  I run my them directly from my DAC.  The waste heat from these is welcome on a winter day. 

(https://positive-feedback.com/Issue74/images/150_Back.jpg)

I still plan on selling these off eventually.  I spent about $1k on replacement power tubes for these over the years, and I'm tired of that.   To say nothing of the energy consumption.  So my new project is to measure the frequency response at the speaker terminals to see what these things are doing and then create a digital EQ to get a similar sound.  I suspect they are acting as a very expensive fixed loudness EQ.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 30, 2021, 12:18:30 PM
Quote from: Daverz on January 30, 2021, 11:51:04 AM
I told myself I was off this merry-go-round, but I hooked up my tube monoblock amps again, and boy they sound wonderful with my latest setup (measurements for these are horrendous, though.  They are distortion generators).  I run my them directly from my DAC.  The waste heat from these is welcome on a winter day. 

(https://positive-feedback.com/Issue74/images/150_Back.jpg)

I still plan on selling these off eventually.  I spent about $1k on replacement power tubes for these over the years, and I'm tired of that.   To say nothing of the energy consumption.  So my new project is to measure the frequency response at the speaker terminals to see what these things are doing and then create a digital EQ to get a similar sound.  I suspect they are acting as a very expensive fixed loudness EQ.

Nice.  What make are those?

One thing that should be clear is that tubes add distortion.  Some tube lovers still insist the tubes are more accurate, but the painful truthful is that the "accuracy" is purely subjective preference for the type of distortion added.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 30, 2021, 12:46:05 PM
Quote from: Daverz on January 30, 2021, 11:51:04 AM
I told myself I was off this merry-go-round, but I hooked up my tube monoblock amps again, and boy they sound wonderful with my latest setup (measurements for these are horrendous, though.  They are distortion generators).  I run my them directly from my DAC.  The waste heat from these is welcome on a winter day. 

(https://positive-feedback.com/Issue74/images/150_Back.jpg)

I still plan on selling these off eventually.  I spent about $1k on replacement power tubes for these over the years, and I'm tired of that.   To say nothing of the energy consumption.  So my new project is to measure the frequency response at the speaker terminals to see what these things are doing and then create a digital EQ to get a similar sound.  I suspect they are acting as a very expensive fixed loudness EQ.
Must admit:  I love my tubes.  ;D  And, yes, it's cold here and the warmth is very welcome!  :)

By the way, how does one create a digital EQ?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 30, 2021, 01:13:40 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 30, 2021, 12:46:05 PM
Must admit:  I love my tubes.  ;D  And, yes, it's cold here and the warmth is very welcome!  :)

I probably should have bought one of Rogue's smaller stereo amps so I don't have 8 power tubes to replace every 2 years or so.

Quote
By the way, how does one create a digital EQ?

I use Room EQ Wizard (REW)

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/

You then need software to apply the EQ in real time.  Some music servers have this built in.  I use the Brutefir plugin for LMS.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 30, 2021, 01:25:44 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 30, 2021, 12:18:30 PM
Nice.  What make are those?

Rogue M-180

https://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/rogue_audio_m-180_monoblock_power_amplifier/index.html

Quote
One thing that should be clear is that tubes add distortion.  Some tube lovers still insist the tubes are more accurate, but the painful truthful is that the "accuracy" is purely subjective preference for the type of distortion added.

Yes, I'm aware of the higher distortion measurements, though I'm pretty convinced that for push-pull type amps it is not the distortion that makes for "the tube sound", but rather something to do with the big transformers used.  On the other hand, the Rogues have reasonably low output impedance, so I'm not sure that explains it, either.  Maybe it's just the glowing tubes, the cost, and the inconvenience. ;) 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 31, 2021, 11:32:50 AM
Quote from: Daverz on January 30, 2021, 01:13:40 PM
I probably should have bought one of Rogue's smaller stereo amps so I don't have 8 power tubes to replace every 2 years or so.

I use Room EQ Wizard (REW)

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/

You then need software to apply the EQ in real time.  Some music servers have this built in.  I use the Brutefir plugin for LMS.
Thank you for the info; I don't see myself going through all of that however!  ;)  I do wish you all the best using it however.  :)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 31, 2021, 04:11:53 PM
So the final component for my hifi upgrade arrived... it is... a cd player.  While streaming is awesome, I decided I shouldn't abandon owning some of my favs in physical format.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 31, 2021, 04:18:05 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 31, 2021, 11:32:50 AM
Thank you for the info; I don't see myself going through all of that however!  ;)  I do wish you all the best using it however.  :)

Many AV receivers have built in room correction (which uses digital EQ to fix the frequency response).  It can make a huge difference in cleaning up the in-room bass response.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on January 31, 2021, 08:13:43 PM
Quote from: Daverz on January 31, 2021, 04:18:05 PM
Many AV receivers have built in room correction (which uses digital EQ to fix the frequency response).  It can make a huge difference in cleaning up the in-room bass response.

There's something I've never understood about this. If someone plays a cello or a piano in a room, the bass sounds fine. You don't need room correction. So why should you need room correction for speakers? It must be because the speakers are no good, not because the room is inadequate. It makes much more sense to me to get decent speakers!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on January 31, 2021, 10:59:06 PM
From my perspective it's all about reflective surfaces and how they can muddle the sound. This can be corrected with technology. That said, I've always tried to place my speakers and my seating position to get the best reproduction.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on January 31, 2021, 11:42:59 PM
I think there could be a case for room correction in some odd shaped rooms - corridors, very high rooms etc. - though even there I'd be more tempted to try omnidirectional speakers. And yes, if there are too many reflective surfaces it's a problem, though IMO better dealt with by reducing the reflections than by modifying the signal with technology (bass traps etc.) Recordings have been mastered with care, a room equaliser messes up that studio mastering. Not a good idea as far as I can see,
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 01, 2021, 01:05:47 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 31, 2021, 04:11:53 PM
So the final component for my hifi upgrade arrived... it is... a cd player.  While streaming is awesome, I decided I shouldn't abandon owning some of my favs in physical format.

My streaming is mostly limited to exploring music I don't know and when something I like comes up I try to get it on CD, because I want more concrete ownership/control over my favorite music than streaming services can offer.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 01, 2021, 01:28:47 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 31, 2021, 08:13:43 PM
There's something I've never understood about this. If someone plays a cello or a piano in a room, the bass sounds fine. You don't need room correction. So why should you need room correction for speakers? It must be because the speakers are no good, not because the room is inadequate. It makes much more sense to me to get decent speakers!

The simple answer is this: Musical instruments are typically played and recorded in rooms with suitable acoustical properties while the rooms where people typically listen to music at home are build for living without much consideration/emphasis into acoustical properties.

Every reflection from a surfaces adds color to the original sound. Musical instruments can sound pretty dull played inside anechoic chamber without reflections/colourisation. Good acoustics add "beautiful" colours. Bad acoustics add "ugly" colours. Room correction tries to remove ugly colours.

Both speakers and room acoustics contribute sound quality. You can't ignore either of these. Acoustics is the most ignored aspect of sound reproduction at home, because it's the most difficult to address. The best speakers in the World will sound crap in a very bad acoustics while decent speakers can give very good sound in a room that was good acoustics. Loudspeaker and listening point placement is very important part of this and I consider them part of acoustics, because acoustics isn't a constant, but a function of sound source/listener positions in a acoustical space. Optimazing these one can take a best out of a bad room acoustics and then use digital room correction to fix the rest.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 01, 2021, 04:30:15 AM
Quote from: Daverz on January 31, 2021, 04:18:05 PM
Many AV receivers have built in room correction (which uses digital EQ to fix the frequency response).  It can make a huge difference in cleaning up the in-room bass response.
Interesting.  Some years ago, I looked at getting a Velodyne Subwoofer and remember that if I purchased it, my audio guy highly recommended to me that he should come out and set it up for me.  Not certain whether or not it had an auto-correction or if it was just a case that he knew the program well and what to listen for?

My house, unfortunately, was not well-built for music listening, but I've managed to still make a nice (though small) listening area for me.  Not good for watching movies using my speakers though.  I'd have to physically move them around--too heavy and too many chances to damage them.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 01, 2021, 05:40:04 AM
I agree that proper placement and room treatment should be tried first.  When I used an avr and my Kef bookshelves Audyssey was applying some hefty eq.  I then changed the position of the speakers and remeasured and it was perfectly flat with no eq needed!  Not kidding.  I would say carpet and well furnished room, use the 1/5th rule for both listener and speaker and that will probably get you most of the way there.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 01, 2021, 07:36:54 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 31, 2021, 08:13:43 PM
There's something I've never understood about this. If someone plays a cello or a piano in a room, the bass sounds fine. You don't need room correction. So why should you need room correction for speakers? It must be because the speakers are no good, not because the room is inadequate. It makes much more sense to me to get decent speakers!

Our ears adjust pretty well to the room sound in the case of a single cello (certainly a piano can sound bad in a room).  Now play a symphonic recording in the same room over speakers and you may notice that in a certain range of frequencies the cellos sound too slow and fat.  That's a room mode (and doesn't mean the speakers are bad).  You can reduce the effect by moving the speakers and your chair around, but some room modes cannot be removed that way, and a particular room may have limitations in where you can put the speakers and listening position.

In my experience, a lot of overhang in the bass muddies up the midrange, so it's not only a bass problem.

Below are the in-room frequency response of my Buchardt S400 bookshelf speakers in their current location and the corrected response.  The uncorrected sound is not that bad because that hump at 90 Hz is somewhat compensated for by a dip in the other speaker.  But with correction there is a lot more clarity and the bass is less thick and heavy.


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2021, 07:44:06 AM
Thanks for that Daverz.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on February 02, 2021, 12:55:19 AM
A feather duster an important accessory!

(https://i.imgur.com/wEooqic.png)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 02, 2021, 05:18:57 AM
That thing looks like it was designed to keep playing without skipping even during an Earthquake!  Maybe you could use it on a private yacht during a storm.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 02, 2021, 06:51:48 AM
Quote from: Irons on February 02, 2021, 12:55:19 AM
A feather duster an important accessory!

(https://i.imgur.com/wEooqic.png)
Wow!  And, yes (reminds me that my modest setup needs some dusting  ::) )!

So, how does he get to the LPs on the far side?

Quote from: DavidW on February 02, 2021, 05:18:57 AM
That thing looks like it was designed to keep playing without skipping even during an Earthquake!  Maybe you could use it on a private yacht during a storm.
Yup!  ;D

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 02, 2021, 08:48:05 AM
btw those Wilson Audio speakers are $329,000 per speaker!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 02, 2021, 09:50:54 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 02, 2021, 08:48:05 AM
btw those Wilson Audio speakers are $329,000 per speaker!
I believe that it's for a pair.  https://audiobacon.net/2019/11/16/how-do-329000-speakers-sound-like/

Like that would make a difference for me!  :'(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 02, 2021, 10:09:32 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 02, 2021, 09:50:54 AM
I believe that it's for a pair.  https://audiobacon.net/2019/11/16/how-do-329000-speakers-sound-like/

Like that would make a difference for me!  :'(

Oh what a relief, for a second I thought they were expensive! hahaha

What I think is funny is that you could spend all that money... and it still wouldn't sound as good as live music.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 02, 2021, 10:39:53 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 02, 2021, 10:09:32 AM
Oh what a relief, for a second I thought they were expensive! hahaha

What I think is funny is that you could spend all that money... and it still wouldn't sound as good as live music.
Too true!

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on February 03, 2021, 07:50:40 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 02, 2021, 06:51:48 AM
Wow!  And, yes (reminds me that my modest setup needs some dusting  ::) )!

So, how does he get to the LPs on the far side?
  Yup!  ;D

Michael Fremer is a funny guy. He always cheers me up.

https://youtu.be/6uQBxq5FSCM
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 03, 2021, 09:17:58 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 02, 2021, 08:48:05 AM
btw those Wilson Audio speakers are $329,000 per speaker!

They are status symbols for people who have too much money to know how to spend it wisely. If you are filthy rich, you can buy a Ferrari or a Bugatti, but you don't have to. You can also buy a Mercedes Benz, save tons of money and still drive an excellent car.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 04, 2021, 05:05:19 AM
Quote from: Irons on February 03, 2021, 07:50:40 AM
Michael Fremer is a funny guy. He always cheers me up.

https://youtu.be/6uQBxq5FSCM
Thanks for that link Irons!  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2021, 05:13:19 AM
I have a problem.

I have just bought a Conrad Johnson amp and I like it.

Imagine my horror when I read this in the manual

QuoteTHE IMPORTANCE OF WIRES

Interconnect and speaker wires are an important element in your stereo system. Interconnects are available which will permit a reference quality system to blossom and fulfil its promise of musical reality. Others will strangle the system to the point where it becomes no better than average. To complicate matters, our experience suggests that the choice of interconnects will be system dependent-those that are ranked first on a given system may be a poor choice for a different system. Consult your Conrad-Johnson dealer for recommendations for your specific system


Normally I'd just ignore this sort of thing, but Conrad Johnson have a good reputation and they have nothing to gain by this eulogy for interconnects. So I won't be able to sleep properly until I try. But I also don't want to spend money on something which has no effect.

What are peoples' experiences with high end cables?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on February 05, 2021, 05:23:45 AM
Well good interconnects help, or rather, cheap, bad interconnects don't.

But you don't have to go thousand-dollar crazy.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 05, 2021, 05:29:27 AM
Archimago did some measuring
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/05/measurements-analogue-rca-interconnects.html (http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/05/measurements-analogue-rca-interconnects.html)

It looks like perhaps subtle, but audible improvements in stereo crosstalk and FR, noise, THD are all nearly identical.  I think the interconnect is probably the only cable in which there would be any SQ improvement.  But I can't imagine there are audible differences between say Blue Jeans and anything more expensive.  I don't trust any company that tries to sell snake oil.  It makes me doubt their design philosophy behind any of their products.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on February 05, 2021, 07:20:17 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 04, 2021, 05:05:19 AM
Thanks for that link Irons!  :)

You are most welcome, PD.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 05, 2021, 08:04:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 05, 2021, 05:13:19 AM
I have a problem.

I have just bought a Conrad Johnson amp and I like it.

Imagine my horror when I read this in the manual


Normally I'd just ignore this sort of thing, but Conrad Johnson have a good reputation and they have nothing to gain by this eulogy for interconnects. So I won't be able to sleep properly until I try. But I also don't want to spend money on something which has no effect.

What are peoples' experiences with high end cables?
Years ago I remember looking at a friend very skeptically after she said that she could hear the differences in sound re changing interconnects.  When I subsequently went to buy my own stereo system, I was amazed that I could hear the differences in sound!   ::)  Perhaps you could borrow some from your audio shop to try out at home?  Or wait 'til you can go into the store and have some time (and bring some favorite CDs) to listen to the differences?  And as (I believe it was Herman?) someone here said, you don't have to go crazy money-wise too to make a sizable difference.  Also, keep in mind a few things:  1)  Ultimately, it's about the sound that you enjoy; 2)  the store will often have better listening environment than your home (so keep that in mind); 3)  They probably will not have all of the same equipment as you do at home; 4)  I've always heard that shorter interconnects are best, are you able to keep your equipment all in one area --meaning close together?

Good luck!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2021, 08:44:18 AM
Quote from: Herman on February 05, 2021, 05:23:45 AM
Well good interconnects help, or rather, cheap, bad interconnects don't.

But you don't have to go thousand-dollar crazy.

Premont has some experiences about this. At the moment I have thousand and thousands and thousands of pounds worth of equipment and the interconnects were bought from a local store for about £1 each.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2021, 08:46:33 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 05, 2021, 08:04:02 AM
Years ago I remember looking at a friend very skeptically after she said that she could hear the differences in sound re changing interconnects.  When I subsequently went to buy my own stereo system, I was amazed that I could hear the differences in sound!   ::)  Perhaps you could borrow some from your audio shop to try out at home?  Or wait 'til you can go into the store and have some time (and bring some favorite CDs) to listen to the differences?  And as (I believe it was Herman?) someone here said, you don't have to go crazy money-wise too to make a sizable difference.  Also, keep in mind a few things:  1)  Ultimately, it's about the sound that you enjoy; 2)  the store will often have better listening environment than your home (so keep that in mind); 3)  They probably will not have all of the same equipment as you do at home; 4)  I've always heard that shorter interconnects are best, are you able to keep your equipment all in one area --meaning close together?

Good luck!

What really made me stop and think was that Conrad Johnson are so confident and use such strong language - "strangled"

And this from a company which doesn't really have anything to gain from promoting wire, they don't sell the stuff.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 05, 2021, 08:49:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 05, 2021, 08:44:18 AM
Premont has some experiences about this. At the moment I have thousand and thousands and thousands of pounds worth of equipment and the interconnects were bought from a local store for about £1 each.

Incredible :o :o :o

You might try Nord Ost interconnects, they almost fit in with any equipment.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2021, 09:40:38 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on February 05, 2021, 08:49:13 AM
Incredible :o :o :o

You might try Nord Ost interconnects, they almost fit in with any equipment.

If I can get them on sale or return I will.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 05, 2021, 10:29:59 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 05, 2021, 09:40:38 AM
If I can get them on sale or return I will.
Wow!  I suspect that you will a fair bit of difference by investing in some better ones.  ;)  These are the ones that I had purchased about 6 years ago:

https://www.musicdirect.com/cables/audioquest-sidewinder-rca-pr  I'm trying to check on the brand of the flat wire cable that I have too.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 05, 2021, 10:30:11 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 05, 2021, 08:46:33 AM
And this from a company which doesn't really have anything to gain from promoting wire, they don't sell the stuff.

Well that is not really true.  They have partnerships with their dealers.  They showcase their products at shows which rely very heavily on cable vendors.  They might even be dipping into that market in a future date.  Cables are very high profit margin.  And companies in the business of making and selling hi-end audio will frequently rub shoulders with cable vendors no matter what they make.

I wonder if the trap is thinking if you spend $$$$ on gear, than any cheaper part will by necessity create a bottleneck? 

I understand buying bespoke cables out of aesthetics.  But if you buy it because you'll think you will perceive a dramatic difference, well you will be making a mistake.  And once you start going down that road of buying into marketing and your easily fooled ears it will just get worse and worse.  What is next?  Power conditioners?  Marking cds up with a green pen?  And it still won't be as good as live music.  I think audiophiles don't grasp diminishing returns and hard limits imposed by the limitations of the recording and the room the speakers are placed in.

And never, ever trust a company for advice even if they don't make the product.  Look to disinterested third party reviews, preferably backed up with actual measurements.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 05, 2021, 10:45:21 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 05, 2021, 10:30:11 AM
Well that is not really true.  They have partnerships with their dealers.  They showcase their products at shows which rely very heavily on cable vendors.  They might even be dipping into that market in a future date.  Cables are very high profit margin.  And companies in the business of making and selling hi-end audio will frequently rub shoulders with cable vendors no matter what they make.

I wonder if the trap is thinking if you spend $$$$ on gear, than any cheaper part will by necessity create a bottleneck? 

I understand buying bespoke cables out of aesthetics.  But if you buy it because you'll think you will perceive a dramatic difference, well you will be making a mistake.  And once you start going down that road of buying into marketing and your easily fooled ears it will just get worse and worse.  What is next?  Power conditioners?  Marking cds up with a green pen?  And it still won't be as good as live music.  I think audiophiles don't grasp diminishing returns and hard limits imposed by the limitations of the recording and the room the speakers are placed in.

And never, ever trust a company for advice even if they don't make the product.  Look to disinterested third party reviews, preferably backed up with actual measurements.

There will always be people who think that barbed wire is enough as interlinks and loudspeaker cable, and that there is no difference in sound in comparison with expensive cables. But I know better. I am blessed with absolute hearing, and was in a situation that I could test cabling over 35 years now, and believe me there is a huge difference between simple interconnects and the high end interconnects. and yes it warrants the outlay.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 05, 2021, 10:52:09 AM
My speaker cable is not very expensive (will hopefully upgrade at some time), but the sound is still wonderful.  It's this (I had to decipher my audio guy's handwriting):

https://www.amazon.ca/Monster-SFLM-500-SuperFlat-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B00004Y2VV

PD

p.s.  And, yes, only spend more money if you can hear the difference and like what you're hearing!  And if it's in the budget too!  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on February 05, 2021, 11:09:53 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on February 05, 2021, 10:45:21 AM
There will always be people who think that barbed wire is enough as interlinks and loudspeaker cable, and that there is no difference in sound in comparison with expensive cables. But I know better. I am blessed with absolute hearing, and was in a situation that I could test cabling over 35 years now, and believe me there is a huge difference between simple interconnects and the high end interconnects. and yes it warrants the outlay.

How much difference do cables make compared to other components?  Speakers? Amplifiers? Preamps?  How much compared to vacuum tubes?  Let's remember that "difference" doesn't necessarily equate with better.

I once compared several medium priced pairs of interconnects, (I'm afraid high-end is beyond my reach in any case).  I did think I heard a difference though, granted, my listening wasn't blind and I might have been fooling myself.  The difference such as I perceived was extremely small:  far, far less than between amplifiers, say.

I've more than once heard the advice that one ought to spend 30% of the cost of your system on cables.  My advice is don't, (based on 50 years of hi-fi experience).  Let's remember that dealers make higher markup on cables than any other category of component.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 05, 2021, 11:18:40 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 05, 2021, 10:52:09 AM
My speaker cable is not very expensive (will hopefully upgrade at some time), but the sound is still wonderful.  It's this (I had to decipher my audio guy's handwriting):

https://www.amazon.ca/Monster-SFLM-500-SuperFlat-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B00004Y2VV

PD

p.s.  And, yes, only spend more money if you can hear the difference and like what you're hearing!  And if it's in the budget too!  :)

We're talking about high end cable.  *cough* you have entry level cable.  Nobody would claim that is snake oil.  No offense intended.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 05, 2021, 11:32:06 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 05, 2021, 11:18:40 AM
We're talking about high end cable.  *cough* you have entry level cable.  Nobody would claim that is snake oil.  No offense intended.
No, I know (particularly the speaker cable) is not very expensive.  I have listened to much more expensive ones though at the same place that I purchased my equipment.  I had spent 99.99% of my budget on good quality components and figured that I'd upgrade the interconnects and speaker wire at some point in the future.

Considering that the original poster said that he had spent around one pound each for his interconnects, I suspect that almost anything will be an improvement.  :)  But again, that depends upon whether or not he wants to try out some other ones (not currently easy)--if he can borrow some and/or audition some at the store....and also his budget.

By the way, which interconnects do you own and how do you like them?  And for your speakers?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 05, 2021, 11:46:20 AM
Haha I have no idea, I bought them years ago!  I remembered that I wanted them to be color coordinated including the speaker cable (it makes it easier to avoid polarity issues) and I also wanted the speaker cables to end in banana plugs (both for convenience).  And I'm pretty sure I spent something like $20 per cable (but I would have to check).  It looks like we have roughly the same budget on cables.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on February 05, 2021, 11:46:51 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on February 05, 2021, 08:49:13 AM
Incredible :o :o :o

You might try Nord Ost interconnects, they almost fit in with any equipment.

I have a couple of Nord Ost interconnects. And a ton of Naim din plugs.

Using the cheapest Radio Shack wiring on very expensive gear doesn't make any sense.

I think you will notice a difference...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 05, 2021, 11:57:51 AM
Quote from: Herman on February 05, 2021, 11:46:51 AM
I have a couple of Nord Ost interconnects. And a ton of Naim din plugs.

Using the cheapest Radio Shack wiring on very expensive gear doesn't make any sense.

I think you will notice a difference...
Nice!  What has been your experience in terms of trying different interconnects?  Did you do much comparison before sinking your hard-earned money into the Nord Ost?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 05, 2021, 12:00:07 PM
Quote from: "Harry" on February 05, 2021, 10:45:21 AM
I am blessed with absolute hearing

The Dutch have such a dry sense of humor.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 05, 2021, 09:35:53 PM
Quote from: Herman on February 05, 2021, 11:46:51 AM
Using the cheapest Radio Shack wiring on very expensive gear doesn't make any sense.

Why not? Do the electrons know the wiring was cheap and sold in Radio Shack? The only disadvantage of cheapo interconnects is the potential lack of mechanical sturdiness which can lead to breaks in the signal path. People who hear differences between interconnects are victims of placebo effect (which is the reason why this snake-oil business exists in the first place). Loudspeaker wiring matters a little bit due to the impedance level (typically less than 10 Ω) being so low, so you need to keep that in mind (avoid long AND thin wiring), but for interconnects (impedance level kilo-ohms) anything goes really.

Saving money on wiring makes actually a lot of sense, because that's one of the only things in audio where you CAN save money without loss of sound quality. Saved money can be used elsewhere where it matter: For example investing in acoustic panels to improve the room acoustics.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 05, 2021, 10:00:02 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on February 05, 2021, 11:09:53 AM
How much difference to cables make compared to other components?  Speakers? Amplifiers? Preamps?  How much compared to vacuum tubes?  Let's remember that "difference" doesn't necessarily equate with better.

Cables don't really make difference. The most difference is done by room acoustics, placement of loudspeakers/listening point and the speakers themselves. Then vacuum tubes. After that comes the sound source and DACs. Then preamps/amps (non-tube).

Quote from: Fëanor on February 05, 2021, 11:09:53 AMI once compared several medium priced pairs of interconnects, (I'm afraid high-end is beyond my reach in any case).  I did think I heard a difference though, granted, my listening wasn't blind and I might have been fooling myself.  The difference such as I perceived was extremely small:  far, far less than between amplifiers, say.

Placebo makes us hear what we expect to hear. I would go as far as to say a piece of audio equipment has been engineered wrongly, if the interconnects affect the sound! That's not supposed to happen!

Quote from: Fëanor on February 05, 2021, 11:09:53 AMI've more than once heard the advice that one ought to spend 30% of the cost of your system on cables.  My advice is don't, (based on 50 years of hi-fi experience).  Let's remember that dealers make high markup on cables than anything other category of component.

That 30 % claim is complete rubbish, insane even, and you are totally correct: Cables and interconnects are a great way to milk audiophools.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on February 05, 2021, 11:22:20 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 05, 2021, 11:57:51 AM
Nice!  What has been your experience in terms of trying different interconnects?  Did you do much comparison before sinking your hard-earned money into the Nord Ost?

PD

No, I frankly didn't spend too much time on this. In my view it's worth it getting a somewhat better interlink, but trying out different kinds of interlinks and comparing the differences did not seem a particularly useful way to spend my time.

This is all a long time ago. Most of my gear is solid vintage Naim, which uses its proprietary interconnects with the queerbo Din srew-on plugs. But I used to have a seperate civilian set for video, and I got a bunch of Nord Ost for that one. In the intervening years I got rid of the video set, and now the Nordosts are in my girlfriend's Rotel set.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 06, 2021, 04:21:23 AM
Quote from: Herman on February 05, 2021, 11:22:20 PM
No, I frankly didn't spend too much time on this. In my view it's worth it getting a somewhat better interlink, but trying out different kinds of interlinks and comparing the differences did not seem a particularly useful way to spend my time.

This is all a long time ago. Most of my gear is solid vintage Naim, which uses its proprietary interconnects with the queerbo Din srew-on plugs. But I used to have a seperate civilian set for video, and I got a bunch of Nord Ost for that one. In the intervening years I got rid of the video set, and now the Nordosts are in my girlfriend's Rotel set.
That is really nice of you to let her use those!  :)

I'm trying to figure out a way to wall-mount a shelf for a turn table upstairs; a friend of mine had offered to help me, but he's since bowed out due to the fact that I have plaster walls.  :(  My good one (a RP-6) is downstairs and on top of a heavy and old t.v. cabinet, so even with my wonky old wooden floors, I would have to do some jumping around I think to make it skip.  Upstairs is a different matter alas.

PD

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 06, 2021, 06:48:58 AM
PD have you considered a hi-fi rack if you have the space?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on February 06, 2021, 11:34:52 AM
(https://s13emagst.akamaized.net/products/20137/20136112/images/res_40ebd59441b08dc89381cfb2e577a06c.jpg?width=450&height=450&hash=A97F638933C9DC1C7B8AC979A5DFC893)

I have the above, plus whatever earbuds I have at my disposal.

(Runs for cover from diehard audiophiles)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 06, 2021, 11:57:57 AM
Well I like to listen on Sony wireless headphones from my phone on some of my walks. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 06, 2021, 02:43:37 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 06, 2021, 06:48:58 AM
PD have you considered a hi-fi rack if you have the space?
Hi David,

I've looked into various ones over the years for my living room but kept running into problems like:  length of the wall where I want it vs. length of racks; hard to put speakers around the components and the t.v. due to doors; would love to be able to watch movies using better speakers but hard to be able to center them around the t.v. in terms of watching movies where seating is; in terms of listening to music, the speakers are either side of a fireplace which works (listening from my couch) but t.v. is to the left of the speakers.  Upstairs, the room is rather small:  I'm trying to figure out places to store things like LPs and CDs in the room which has my old stereo and/or building new shelving.  So, certainly not optimal but I'm trying my best to make it work.  Perhaps, someday, I can figure out a way to get a hi-fi rack upstairs--one which has enough weight/stability, not to let my components 'bounce'?  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on February 07, 2021, 03:06:10 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 05, 2021, 10:00:02 PM
Cables don't really make difference. The most difference is done by room acoustics, placement of loudspeakers/listening point and the speakers themselves. Then vacuum tubes. After that comes the sound source and DACs. Then preamps/amps (non-tube).

Placebo makes us hear what we expect to hear. I would go as far as to say a piece of audio equipment has been engineered wrongly, if the interconnects affect the sound! That's not supposed to happen!

That 30 % claim is complete rubbish, insane even, and you are totally correct: Cables and interconnects are a great way to milk audiophools.

Hi-Fi (a word laughed at recently on TV so perhaps I should not use it) has been an obsession for decades. Money no object but not convinced cables make a noticeable difference. It looses creditability for me with mains cables at £$ XXXX. I do not use bell-wire or Nordost either. The one area in this obsession where common sense prevails.   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 07, 2021, 03:11:30 AM
Well whatever, you may all dream on, but cables and interlinks make a huge difference in sound, and is definitively not a waste of money, but the nay sayers have it on GMG. Let me be the only one then that believes what my ears tell me.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on February 07, 2021, 04:06:14 AM
Do you guys think that everyone hears the same thing from the same system in the same room with the same source?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on February 07, 2021, 04:16:57 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 07, 2021, 04:06:14 AM
Do you guys think that everyone hears the same thing from the same system in the same room with the same source?

Heck, depending on my mood, I don't even hear quite the same thing from my system from day to day.  It doesn't sound as good when I'm tired or stressed.  :(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 07, 2021, 05:03:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 07, 2021, 04:06:14 AM
Do you guys think that everyone hears the same thing from the same system in the same room with the same source?
I think that there are several factors involved here:  1)  Everyone's hearing is different due to factors like hearing loss over the years, possible medical issues (like tinnitus) and I think also 2) How well one is able to concentrate and focus on what one is hearing.  I suspect also that the more one listens to different systems and components that one can get better at noticing things like how well certain systems/components can deliver the highs and the lows for instance.

When I auditioned different pieces of equipment and setups some years back, I enjoyed listening to different recordings and seeing what I liked; however, it took me a while to get out of that mindset and just go back to enjoying the music--and the recordings that I brought to the shops!  ::)  Some people, alas, only seem to be focused on either seeing the flaws in their setup(s) and/or wanting to get the latest piece of 'kit' or forever tweaking things rather than just enjoying the music--which is what all of that 'stuff' is for.  That's my opinion anyway.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 07, 2021, 05:04:36 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 06, 2021, 02:43:37 PM
Hi David,

I've looked into various ones over the years for my living room but kept running into problems like:  length of the wall where I want it vs. length of racks; hard to put speakers around the components and the t.v. due to doors; would love to be able to watch movies using better speakers but hard to be able to center them around the t.v. in terms of watching movies where seating is; in terms of listening to music, the speakers are either side of a fireplace which works (listening from my couch) but t.v. is to the left of the speakers.  Upstairs, the room is rather small:  I'm trying to figure out places to store things like LPs and CDs in the room which has my old stereo and/or building new shelving.  So, certainly not optimal but I'm trying my best to make it work.  Perhaps, someday, I can figure out a way to get a hi-fi rack upstairs--one which has enough weight/stability, not to let my components 'bounce'?  :)

Yeah I get that problem.  I want a dedicated listening room but I have only one decently sized room which is my living room.  I use a soundbar for my home theater, and I prefer that to discrete speakers.  So this is what I did.  I set up my stereo perpendicular to the home entertainment system.  I have a recliner that faces the tv and a sofa that faces the stereo.  What I do is move the recliner back and pull the sofa away from the wall when I'm going to listen to music.  It is like I have envisioned two different rooms occupying the same space if that makes sense.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 07, 2021, 05:05:54 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 07, 2021, 04:06:14 AM
Do you guys think that everyone hears the same thing from the same system in the same room with the same source?

No because we have all different hearing.  Also the sound changes when I have a drink! $:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 07, 2021, 05:10:28 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on February 07, 2021, 03:11:30 AM
Let me be the only one then that believes what my ears tell me.

Herman and PD agreed with you so I don't think you're alone.  Claiming cables matter is a very popular opinion among subjectivitist audiophiles anyway.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 07, 2021, 05:15:25 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 07, 2021, 05:04:36 AM
Yeah I get that problem.  I want a dedicated listening room but I have only one decently sized room which is my living room.  I use a soundbar for my home theater, and I prefer that to discrete speakers.  So this is what I did.  I set up my stereo perpendicular to the home entertainment system.  I have a recliner that faces the tv and a sofa that faces the stereo.  What I do is move the recliner back and pull the sofa away from the wall when I'm going to listen to music.  It is like I have envisioned two different rooms occupying the same space if that makes sense.
May I ask roughly what is the size of your living room and what kind of shape?  And do you have many doorways to deal with and/or a fireplace?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on February 07, 2021, 05:17:16 AM
Well, it's the brain that tell you what the ears detect. And the brain is an extremely subjective organ. I don't believe for a second that any absolutte senses exist, not in smell, taste, reaction to pain (why can people be hypnotized to not feel pain?) or anything. It's all prosessed by the brain.

Of course there are differences in sound - or in wine for that matter - and the basis can be understood pretty well as in acid in wine or freqency respons in sound, but for the finer nuances there are always a not particularly reliable, subjective element.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on February 07, 2021, 05:38:26 AM
Wine-tasting: it's junk science (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 07, 2021, 05:42:03 AM
Quote from: The new erato on February 07, 2021, 05:17:16 AM
Well, it's the brain that tell you what the ears detect. And the brain is an extremely subjective organ. I don't believe for a second that any absolutte senses exist, not in smell, taste, reaction to pain (why can people be hypnotized to not feel pain?) or anything. It's all prosessed by the brain.

Of course there are differences in sound - or in wine for that matter - and the basis can be understood pretty well as in acid in wine or freqency respons in sound, but for the finer nuances there are always a not particularly reliable, subjective element.
True about the brain processing things too. Good point!  :)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 07, 2021, 05:53:36 AM
I don't know whether or not there is a thread for this, but I was reminded yet again, how wonderfully helpful this little light is.  It's inexpensive, very flexible, comes with a pretty long cord, so is quite mobile.  I have two of them:  one is attached to the top of my tv/stereo cabinet (helpful when putting a LP on and seeing controls....also when needing to either attach or disconnect components' cables); the other one is in the room in which I have most of my CDs and LPs stored.  The cord is long enough that I can move it between most of my cases.  You just unclamp it and reattach it where needed.   

It's made by Ikea and currently going for about $15....and comes in a variety of colors to boot!  And it doesn't use much electricity either.  :)

https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/naevlinge-led-clamp-spotlight-dark-red-80467259/

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 07, 2021, 05:54:24 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 07, 2021, 05:15:25 AM
May I ask roughly what is the size of your living room and what kind of shape?  And do you have many doorways to deal with and/or a fireplace?

Oh it is about 13 feet by 12 feet.  You would think oh no it's too square except one side then opens up to the kitchen which adds about the same length again.  So I end up not having a problem with acoustics.  There is a door in the corner, and a staircase.  No fireplace.  You might think I should hurry up and buy a house then and get a larger room... but I've never met anyone with a large living room.  It just doesn't seem to be a thing where I live.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 07, 2021, 05:56:43 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 07, 2021, 05:53:36 AM
It's made by Ikea and currently going for about $15....and comes in a variety of colors to boot!  And it doesn't use much electricity either.  :)

https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/naevlinge-led-clamp-spotlight-dark-red-80467259/

PD

I have a little led lamp too.  I put it behind my tv and aim it at the wall.  I use it for bias lighting.  It helps alleviate eye strain when watching in the dark.  At $10 it is WAY cheaper than buying those bias lighting strip light kits.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 07, 2021, 06:05:06 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 07, 2021, 05:56:43 AM
I have a little led lamp too.  I put it behind my tv and aim it at the wall.  I use it for bias lighting.  It helps alleviate eye strain when watching in the dark.  At $10 it is WAY cheaper than buying those bias lighting strip light kits.
Clever thinking!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on February 07, 2021, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 07, 2021, 05:05:54 AM
No because we have all different hearing.  Also the sound changes when I have a drink! $:)

+1.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Iota on February 07, 2021, 08:54:22 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 07, 2021, 05:05:54 AM
Also the sound changes when I have a drink! $:)

As it does when you touch your toes wearing headphones.

Seeing as you didn't ask.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 12, 2021, 04:11:44 PM
I bought something that turned out to be a real game changer.  It felt a little silly because I could just use my computer... but I noticed that sometimes I could hear the spinning fan.  So I bought a network audio player and it's just awesome!  I can control it with my Ipad without getting up from the couch.  I can seamlessly play my digital downloads from an attached usb, switch to Qobuz, switch to Primephonic through builtin Chromecast and it all sounds great.  I can have the cover art and track progress on the Ipad or on the screen of the player.  After I start playing music I prefer the screen on the device and it doesn't feel that different from using a cd player.

Does anyone else use a network player?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on February 12, 2021, 05:13:29 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 12, 2021, 04:11:44 PM
Does anyone else use a network player?

Yes, a Squeezebox. Still working, since 2007...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 12, 2021, 05:49:27 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 12, 2021, 04:11:44 PM
I bought something that turned out to be a real game changer.  It felt a little silly because I could just use my computer... but I noticed that sometimes I could hear the spinning fan.  So I bought a network audio player and it's just awesome!  I can control it with my Ipad without getting up from the couch.  I can seamlessly play my digital downloads from an attached usb, switch to Qobuz, switch to Primephonic through builtin Chromecast and it all sounds great.  I can have the cover art and track progress on the Ipad or on the screen of the player.  After I start playing music I prefer the screen on the device and it doesn't feel that different from using a cd player.

Does anyone else use a network player?

Also a Squeezebox user, though I have actually been using Raspberry Pis as squeezebox replacements for a while.  I still use a Squeezebox Touch in my headphone system, though.  Music is served from a linux box in my loft.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 12, 2021, 10:46:57 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 07, 2021, 05:56:43 AM
I have a little led lamp too.  I put it behind my tv and aim it at the wall.  I use it for bias lighting.  It helps alleviate eye strain when watching in the dark.  At $10 it is WAY cheaper than buying those bias lighting strip light kits.

I have also had a little cheapo led lamp (3 W I think) behind my tv shooting light up ceiling for years. Initially people used this kind of lamps to "improve" the black levels of early flat tv sets (black screen was actually dark gray and looked darker to eyes in a dark room when there was dim light behind the tv set). The black levels and contrast of my tv is good enough, but in dark tv "modulates" the lightness in the room which is pretty annoying. The lamp behind the tv regulates the lightness to a more constant level and as you put it also alleviates eye strain when watching in the dark.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on February 13, 2021, 12:31:14 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 07, 2021, 05:10:28 AM
Herman and PD agreed with you so I don't think you're alone.  Claiming cables matter is a very popular opinion among subjectivitist audiophiles anyway.

I also emphasized that there is a limit to this cable - money issue, diminishing returns.

What I said was that audiophile cables and interconnects are better than cheapo Radioshack cables. But I doubt there is a big difference between audiophile cables, also because at a certian point you're going to lose frequencies due to your ears' age.

It also helps to keep in mind that you will (most likely) never enjoy music as much as when you were very young and heard crappy performances of great music for the first time, on, often, pretty mediocre gear.

Like fabulous sex, most of it is in your own receptiveness  -  and I'll not extend the analogy into the gear thing...


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 14, 2021, 11:59:30 AM
Quote from: Herman on February 13, 2021, 12:31:14 AM
I also emphasized that there is a limit to this cable - money issue, diminishing returns.

What I said was that audiophile cables and interconnects are better than cheapo Radioshack cables. But I doubt there is a big difference between audiophile cables, also because at a certian point you're going to lose frequencies due to your ears' age.

Well that all sounds reasonable.

QuoteIt also helps to keep in mind that you will (most likely) never enjoy music as much as when you were very young and heard crappy performances of great music for the first time, on, often, pretty mediocre gear.

Like fabulous sex, most of it is in your own receptiveness  -  and I'll not extend the analogy into the gear thing...

Yes there was nothing quite as magical as when I first got into classical music through audio cassettes on crap hardware!  And since I couldn't stream entire catalogues I really lived with those tapes and knew every note of those recordings.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 14, 2021, 12:02:42 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on February 13, 2021, 03:03:34 AM
I'd be interested in any details of your Raspberry Pi solution.

Same here.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on February 14, 2021, 07:13:55 PM
Here's a thread I started on building a Rasberry Pi squeezebox. My advice is to just buy the stuff and do it. That forum will help you out if you have any questions - you can see it wasn't plain sailing for me. It's easier to do than to think about doing.


https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?110533-Some-Rasberry-Pi-LMS-questions-for-a-complete-beginner
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 14, 2021, 09:37:48 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 14, 2021, 07:13:55 PM
Here's a thread I started on building a Rasberry Pi squeezebox. My advice is to just buy the stuff and do it. That forum will help you out if you have any questions - you can see it wasn't plain sailing for me. It's easier to do than to think about doing.

https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?110533-Some-Rasberry-Pi-LMS-questions-for-a-complete-beginner

I use an RPi4 running piCorePlayer.  I just use the standard plastic Pi4 case and power supply that you get with one of the kit offerings from pishop.us or similar retail site.  The Pi board just snaps into the case; no tools needed.  If you don't already have one, make sure you have a microSD card writer.

This seems to have everything you need: https://www.pishop.us/product/raspberry-pi-4b-starter-kit/

piCorePlayer is at https://www.picoreplayer.org/

LMS is at https://mysqueezebox.com/download

My Pi4 is connected to the network via ethernet and then to my USB DAC (Auralic Vega DAC).  The DAC is connected directly to my power amp (Bryston 3B-SST).  I've also tested with with the little Topping E30 DAC, which works great (and costs about 1/30 of what I paid for the Auralic back in 2014!). 

I use the Material Skin plugin and a browser to control the whole thing.  This gives you a uniform interface across phone, tablet and PC.

You should also be able to run LMS server on the Pi4 itself (it's just a config checkbox).  I have not tested this myself, but I've read reports that it works well.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 15, 2021, 06:53:31 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on February 15, 2021, 12:39:57 AM
David - I forgot to ask which network player you got  ... or did I miss that?

Cambridge Audio CXN v2.  Expensive but the only cheaper one which has a display (I really wanted that) is a Marantz streamer that doesn't natively support Qobuz nor Primephonic nor Idagio.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on February 15, 2021, 10:53:58 AM
Quote from: Daverz on February 14, 2021, 09:37:48 PM
I use an RPi4 running piCorePlayer.  I just use the standard plastic Pi4 case and power supply that you get with one of the kit offerings from pishop.us or similar retail site.  The Pi board just snaps into the case; no tools needed.  If you don't already have one, make sure you have a microSD card writer.

This seems to have everything you need: https://www.pishop.us/product/raspberry-pi-4b-starter-kit/

piCorePlayer is at https://www.picoreplayer.org/

LMS is at https://mysqueezebox.com/download

My Pi4 is connected to the network via ethernet and then to my USB DAC (Auralic Vega DAC).  The DAC is connected directly to my power amp (Bryston 3B-SST).  I've also tested with with the little Topping E30 DAC, which works great (and costs about 1/30 of what I paid for the Auralic back in 2014!). 

I use the Material Skin plugin and a browser to control the whole thing.  This gives you a uniform interface across phone, tablet and PC.

You should also be able to run LMS server on the Pi4 itself (it's just a config checkbox).  I have not tested this myself, but I've read reports that it works well.

Well this looks very interesting and helpful but I have a few questions maybe that Daverz or someone could answer for me.

Presently my "streamer" is a modest, (Internet connected), Windows PC desktop running Foobar2000;  music files are on my Synology NAS and accessed by the PC via ethernet.  I don't subscribe to Tidal or the like but it's a future possibility.

What would be the advantages for me of a Raspberry Pi4 streamer?  As I see it, perhaps the smaller footprint of the Raspberry device and control of my music interface using an Android tablet.  Any other advantages?

I believe I can run LMS on the Synology NAS if that was an advantage versus the Raspberry itself.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2021, 11:33:55 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on February 15, 2021, 10:53:58 AM


What would be the advantages for me of a Raspberry Pi4 streamer?  As I see it, perhaps the smaller footprint of the Raspberry device and control of my music interface using an Android tablet.  Any other advantages?

I believe I can run LMS on the Synology NAS if that was an advantage versus the Raspberry itself.

Can you get your music into your hifi wirelessly.
Can you control your music through a tablet/phone app?
Can you search your music database by tags?
Can you put spotify, qobuz, youtube tidal etc in a playlist?
Can you move the music you're listening to from one room to another?
Can you find what tracks you were listening to yesterday, last week?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 15, 2021, 12:02:36 PM
Mandryka are you asking Daverz, Feonor, ultralinear, myself?  For myself it is yes to everything but the last two.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2021, 12:07:49 PM
Feonor, sorry, I will now make it clear.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 15, 2021, 01:44:40 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on February 15, 2021, 10:53:58 AM
What would be the advantages for me of a Raspberry Pi4 streamer?  As I see it, perhaps the smaller footprint of the Raspberry device and control of my music interface using an Android tablet.  Any other advantages?

You would not need the PC to be on to play music or run a cable from the PC to the hi-fi.  The Pi has such low power consumption that you can just leave it on continuously.  In addition to LMS, there are several other music servers available for the Pi (e.g. Volumnio, Moode... I tried Volumnio and much prefer LMS.)  I mention these just to emphasize that you are not stuck with LMS. 

The other advantages are LMS features: you can multiple access points in the house that can play simultaneously and independently or synchronized.  It's a mature software ecosystem (how's that for a buzzword?) with a large number of plugins available.  I'm too lazy to list all the features.     

For classical music, LMS (7.9 and up) has a composer (lists any albums with tracks by the selected composer) and conductor menus by default and you can create separate libraries for classical and other music.  That's the easiest way to browse your classical music without having to create custom tags. 

There is also the 3rd party "Custom Browse" plugin that I've used to create a custom WORK tag so I can browse using  COMPOSER -> WORK -> RECORDING menus.  Custom Browse Is very flexible, though somewhat funky.  You'll need to start with LMS 7.9 to install Custom Browse and Custom Scan, after which you can upgrade LMS as usual (as I said, a bit funky right now).

https://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/?ver=7.9   

Tangentially, the LMS Qobuz plugin allows browsing by classical work on each Qobuz album if Qobuz provides that info, a really helpful feature as you can often not tell works just by the titles.

I just have two "access points" in my home, one for my speaker rig in the living room and another for my headphone system in the bedroom.  Both have independent "room correction" (obviously just "correction" in the case of the headphones.) 

Quote
I believe I can run LMS on the Synology NAS if that was an advantage versus the Raspberry itself.

You might want to search the squeezebox forum to see what the current state of the Synology port is.  Just a cursory search found this discussion:

https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?111876-LmsUpdate-and-LmsRepack-Synology-8-0-*-packages/page31

In any case, you don't need to move your music files.

 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on February 16, 2021, 08:23:47 AM
Daverz, thanks for you info and comments above;  potentially very useful esp. with respect to LMS.

You did touch on a major concern of my which is the search capability of the music players.  I have many years of experience with Foobar2000 which I like given the customization that I've worked out.  I relay exclusively on metadata tags for find what I'm looking for, and of course, a 'Compose' sort is essential.  (A few months ago I briefly tried Tidal but found trying to search by Composers there was close useless.  I dropped Tital and certainly was going pay for a subscription given that deficiency.)

All my media files are stored on my NAS so I can access them from any where with network access not only with computer but smart phone and even smart TV -- computer is best of course.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 17, 2021, 07:14:26 AM
Replaced my Yamaha streamer WXC 50 with a Bluesound 2i. The musiccast app from Yamaha is unstabile and their interface is a bloody nuisance. Apart from that the Bluesound is much better in presenting the music. Did an A-B comparison.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 17, 2021, 07:16:27 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on February 17, 2021, 07:14:26 AM
Replaced my Yamaha streamer WXC 50 with a Bluesound 2i. The musiccast app from Yamaha is unstabile and their interface is a bloody nuisance. Apart from that the Bluesound is much better in presenting the music. Did an A-B comparison.

Yes I had considered the Bluesound but I really wanted a display on the player.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 17, 2021, 08:32:08 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 17, 2021, 07:16:27 AM
Yes I had considered the Bluesound but I really wanted a display on the player.

Me too, but that cost a lot of euros/dollars/pounds more, and is often not adding to the quality of sound.
For me this  was the best deal, about 550 euros but sounding like a 1500 euro costing streamer.
Reviews are raving.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on February 22, 2021, 06:52:24 AM
Anyone got one of these?

(https://i.ibb.co/TgVrtBC/CB0-CD1-C2-BAE6-4-EF9-ACC9-3573-B5879487.png)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: steve ridgway on February 22, 2021, 06:55:23 AM
That looks fun although I'm not so sure about the headphone version. :-\
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 22, 2021, 07:08:47 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on February 17, 2021, 07:14:26 AM
Replaced my Yamaha streamer WXC 50 with a Bluesound 2i. The musiccast app from Yamaha is unstabile and their interface is a bloody nuisance. Apart from that the Bluesound is much better in presenting the music. Did an A-B comparison.

I can now confirm that the Bluesound 2i is far superior to the Yamaha. Natural, with a deep stage, excellent detail, a broad image, and a lot of orchestral punch.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 22, 2021, 09:49:35 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 22, 2021, 06:52:24 AM
Anyone got one of these?

(https://i.ibb.co/TgVrtBC/CB0-CD1-C2-BAE6-4-EF9-ACC9-3573-B5879487.png)
Interesting!  So, to use it, one would have to hook it up to a gas tank?  :-\
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on February 22, 2021, 10:21:59 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 22, 2021, 09:49:35 AM
Interesting!  So, to use it, one would have to hook it up to a gas tank?  :-\

And the sound quality would be improved if you had very expensive gas pipes.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 22, 2021, 11:51:10 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 22, 2021, 10:21:59 AM
And the sound quality would be improved if you had very expensive gas pipes.
lol
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Klavier on August 26, 2021, 04:00:35 PM
Acapella Audio Arts High Cellini speakers
Ayon Audio Auris II with phono stage preamp
Ayon Audio Orthos II XS mono blocks power amps
Transrotor Apollon TMD turntable; TR 5012 tonearm
Clearaudio Titanium v2 cartridge
dCS Vivaldi CD/SACD; MSB Premiere DAC (for hi-res files/streaming)
Stax SR-009S/Stax SRM-T8000 headphones/amp
Nordost Tyr 2 speaker cables/interconnects
Solid Tech Reference NOS4 rack and amplifier stands
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 26, 2021, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: Klavier on August 26, 2021, 04:00:35 PM
Acapella Audio Arts High Cellini speakers
Ayon Audio Auris II with phono stage preamp
Ayon Audio Orthos II XS mono blocks power amps
Transrotor Apollon TMD turntable; TR 5012 tonearm
Clearaudio Titanium v2 cartridge
dCS Vivaldi CD/SACD; MSB Premiere DAC (for hi-res files/streaming)
Stax SR-009S/Stax SRM-T8000 headphones/amp
Nordost Tyr 2 speaker cables/interconnects
Solid Tech Reference NOS4 rack and amplifier stands

Congratulations.  Quite a sumptuous system I should say, an no doubt terrific sounding.  As I understand the Acapella High Cellini's have ion tweeters, do they not?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 26, 2021, 04:43:18 PM
I recently upgraded my Sonic Frontiers Line 1 preamplifier to the "SE+" version.  The SF Line 1 has been out of production for over 20 years but that equipment is still expertly serviced and upgraded by Parts ConneXion (https://www.partsconnexion.com/index.html) located in the Toronto area.  The owner of Parts ConneXion was principal of Sonic Frontiers before they sold out to Anthem.

Yes, I think the SE+ finesses the basic attributes of the basic Line 1.  See before & after pics ...

Before:
(https://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=20428&f=annotated_28preug29_dscf1077.jpg)

After:
(https://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=20428&f=reannotated_dscf110.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Klavier on August 26, 2021, 05:24:17 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on August 26, 2021, 04:22:26 PM
Congratulations.  Quite a sumptuous system I should say, an no doubt terrific sounding.  As I understand the Acapella High Cellini's have ion tweeters, do they not?
Thank you. Yes, ion tweeters, so there's really no mass at all.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 26, 2021, 06:02:08 PM
Quote from: The new erato on February 07, 2021, 05:17:16 AM
Well, it's the brain that tell you what the ears detect. And the brain is an extremely subjective organ. I don't believe for a second that any absolutte senses exist, not in smell, taste, reaction to pain (why can people be hypnotized to not feel pain?) or anything. It's all prosessed by the brain.

Of course there are differences in sound - or in wine for that matter - and the basis can be understood pretty well as in acid in wine or freqency respons in sound, but for the finer nuances there are always a not particularly reliable, subjective element.

+1. There is no sound outside human sense. There are only waves, that touch eardrums.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on September 18, 2021, 02:35:32 PM
SPEAKERS: B&W 803D3
AMPLIFIER McIntosh MA9000
CD/SACD PLAYER: Esoteric K-03
DAC: Chord Qutest
TURNTABLE: VPI Prime Signature
PHONO CARTRIDGE: Ortofon Cadenza Bronze
BLU-RAY/DVD PLAYER: Oppo 205
HEADPHONES: Sennheiser HD800S and, Audeze LCD-XC

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.audio-markt.de%2Fdata%2Fmarket%2F21%2F2183428956_0_g.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi2.wp.com%2Flyricaudio.com%2Fweb%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F07%2FMcIntosh-MA9000-2.jpg%3Fssl%3D1&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.maplatine.com%2Fen%2F28192-thickbox_default%2Fvpi-prime-signature-vinyl-turntable.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fhifi-video.fr%2F2751-thickbox_default%2Fchord-qutest.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fucarecdn.audiogon.com%2F8b019dd5-ed4a-447b-bfcf-f3efd06aa0df%2F-%2Fscale_crop%2F840x630%2Fcenter%2F-%2Fquality%2Flightest%2F&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.maplatine.com%2Fen%2F2266-thickbox_default%2Fortofon-cadenza-bronze-mc-cartridge.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fhometheaterreview.com%2Fassets_c%2F2017%2F07%2FOppo-UDP-205-800x500-thumb-800xauto-17136.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fberitateknologi.id%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F12%2FSennheiser-HD-800-S-Review.png&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.bhphoto.com%2Fimages%2Fimages500x500%2Faudeze_lcdxc_wc_bb_lf_lcd_xc_high_performance_1408366216_1072781.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 08, 2021, 07:27:40 AM
Update for me.  I moved and in the new room the stereo sounds awful! :o

That hardwood floor.  I am receiving an area rug today and corresponding pad.  Between that and speaker positioning I hope to make my stereo sound good again.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 08, 2021, 07:35:46 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 08, 2021, 07:27:40 AM
Update for me.  I moved and in the new room the stereo sounds awful! :o

That hardwood floor.  I am receiving an area rug today and corresponding pad.  Between that and speaker positioning I hope to make my stereo sound good again.
Uh, oh!  Good luck getting everything squared away!  What kind of shape and size is your listening room?  Would some sort of audio diffusing panels/treatments on your walls help or not an option?  Is your partner a big music lover?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 08, 2021, 01:08:27 PM
The sound is good now.  The area rug and positioning did the trick.  Now time for some Shostakovich!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 08, 2021, 01:45:16 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 08, 2021, 01:08:27 PM
The sound is good now.  The area rug and positioning did the trick.  Now time for some Shostakovich!

David - +1 - glad to here!  Dave  8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 09, 2021, 04:47:20 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 08, 2021, 01:08:27 PM
The sound is good now.  The area rug and positioning did the trick.  Now time for some Shostakovich!
Yeah!  Happy for you!
:)
PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on November 29, 2021, 09:51:25 PM
Mine is a bit complex, so I've made new block diagram for you (I may have posted about my kit some 10 years ago, but I've been away from here for a while).

The main user interface is this nice little Yamaha MusicCast WXC-50 streaming pre amplifier. It's not able to drill deep in music catalogues, so a trusty old Squeezebox Touch patched to pass through everything up to 192/24 takes care of the locally stored music files.

The speaker system is a dynamic 3 way dipole with closed box sub woofers. Crossovers run on Console in a PC. The sound card is a RME Fireface UC and amplifiers are Hypex nCore and B&O IcepowerASX2.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on November 29, 2021, 10:49:14 PM
Quote from: "Harry" on February 22, 2021, 07:08:47 AM
I can now confirm that the Bluesound 2i is far superior to the Yamaha. Natural, with a deep stage, excellent detail, a broad image, and a lot of orchestral punch.
And I just bought the Yamaha, as presented above. Mind you I use the digital output 98% of the time and playing LPs is for nostalgia more than sound quality.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on November 29, 2021, 10:53:01 PM
Good to see you here Valentino!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on November 30, 2021, 12:30:11 AM
Thanks! Don't drink all that at once.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DaveF on December 01, 2021, 01:07:37 AM
Just bought a Marantz PM7000N receiver plus a pair of Fyne F303 floorstanders.  Having gratefully received a lot of technical advice earlier on this thread which was just a bit too technical for a bear of very little brain, I was pleasantly surprised how easy it was to hook up, and now have an embarrassment of different ways to play music - off a USB stick, streamed wirelessly from my PC running Emby Server in another room, or wired to a laptop running the same server software.  Or even plugging in a thousand-year-old CD player.  All sounding good.  And my son, now flush with cash in his first job, bought me not one but three pairs of ear/headphones for my birthday, of which the Sennheisers sound especially fine.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on December 01, 2021, 11:42:08 AM
Quote from: DaveF on December 01, 2021, 01:07:37 AM
Just bought a Marantz PM7000N receiver plus a pair of Fyne F303 floorstanders.  Having gratefully received a lot of technical advice earlier on this thread which was just a bit too technical for a bear of very little brain, I was pleasantly surprised how easy it was to hook up, and now have an embarrassment of different ways to play music - off a USB stick, streamed wirelessly from my PC running Emby Server in another room, or wired to a laptop running the same server software.  Or even plugging in a thousand-year-old CD player.  All sounding good.  And my son, now flush with cash in his first job, bought me not one but three pairs of ear/headphones for my birthday, of which the Sennheisers sound especially fine.

What Sennheisers did he give you?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on December 01, 2021, 12:13:05 PM
(https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/images/asgard%203%20black%20front%201920.jpg)

(https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/images/modi%203%20black%201920%20front.jpg)

As a headphone listener from my iMAc much of the time, the sound quality is of high importance. I currently own the Burson Playmate 2 which is a great DAC/Amp with plenty of power. However, it apparently won't drive my Sennheiser HD650s to the level and quality that they require. (This is what I've read on a number of forums and review sites). I still hear a rolled off treble, fuzzy mid bass and there is that three point imaging issue where the sound appears to come from three distinctive points instead of being spread around my head. They don't sound like an $AUS560 pair of headphones which brings me to the images above.

The top one is the Schiit (yes it is pronounced like that and the name is deliberate) Asgard 3 headphone amp which has four time the power of the PM2. I'm pairing it with the second image which is a Schiit Modi 3+ DAC. The Asgard has been touted as one of the amps to get to bring the HD650s to life outside of going down the 'tube' route.

The interesting thing is price as this combo is costing me only $AUS550 plus s&h, considerably less than the Burson did.

I also have a venerable pair of Sennheiser HD580s which were the precursor for the HD600s and HD650s. While the Burson does a great job of bringing these to life, they are also 300ohm cans and I'd be interested to see what the Schiit combo does for these. Similarly I am looking at pairing up my Audeze LCD1 planars. I'll report back after they arrive.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DaveF on December 01, 2021, 10:53:20 PM
Quote from: Holden on December 01, 2021, 11:42:08 AM
What Sennheisers did he give you?

HD 560S.  Also a pair of Beyerdynamic DT 770s and some in-ear ones called KZ-ZSN Pro, which were supposedly to use with my iPod when gardening - although I'm terrified I'd cut through the cable (as has happened before) so use cheap throwaway ones instead.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on December 02, 2021, 12:12:04 AM
^In Norway the Topping headphone amps are quite popular. They seem to be able do drive anything. Mind you, they're designed to have no sound of their own so they will not be to everyones liking.

Throwing in a pic with a view to our living/listening room, wife's plastic sandals and all. The main speakers are as mentioned dipoles, designed to operate below the dipole peak (ok, that falls apart at about 6 kHz for physical reasons. The tweeter is just too big). In practice they shower the room with a frequency spectrum that doesn't change much as you move around. Subwoofers between the main speakers and the front wall. The listening chair is that rocking chair. I sit fairly close when I listen seriously, about 1,8 m speaker-ear. Note the 10 cm reflection killing "box" above the listening triangle. It also does wonders to the acoustics of this rather classic L-shaped Scandinavian living room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 02, 2021, 02:16:46 AM
Quote from: Holden on December 01, 2021, 12:13:05 PM
(https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/images/asgard%203%20black%20front%201920.jpg)

(https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/images/modi%203%20black%201920%20front.jpg)

As a headphone listener from my iMAc much of the time, the sound quality is of high importance. I currently own the Burson Playmate 2 which is a great DAC/Amp with plenty of power. However, it apparently won't drive my Sennheiser HD650s to the level and quality that they require. (This is what I've read on a number of forums and review sites). I still hear a rolled off treble, fuzzy mid bass and there is that three point imaging issue where the sound appears to come from three distinctive points instead of being spread around my head. They don't sound like an $AUS560 pair of headphones which brings me to the images above.

The top one is the Schiit (yes it is pronounced like that and the name is deliberate) Asgard 3 headphone amp which has four time the power of the PM2. I'm pairing it with the second image which is a Schiit Modi 3+ DAC. The Asgard has been touted as one of the amps to get to bring the HD650s to life outside of going down the 'tube' route.

The interesting thing is price as this combo is costing me only $AUS550 plus s&h, considerably less than the Burson did.

I also have a venerable pair of Sennheiser HD580s which were the precursor for the HD600s and HD650s. While the Burson does a great job of bringing these to life, they are also 300ohm cans and I'd be interested to see what the Schiit combo does for these. Similarly I am looking at pairing up my Audeze LCD1 planars. I'll report back after they arrive.
I can't speak to your issues regarding listening through headphones, but as a fellow Mac user, I do have one suggestion that you might like to check into (I have both an older iMac and an older MacBook Pro).  B&W (Yes, as in Bowers and Wilkins) speakers.  I bought a pair around the same time that I purchased my Macs.  B&W MM1.  There are probably newer models out today if you want to look into it.  Honestly, for speakers meant to be hooked up to your computer, they are impressive.  You could probably find a used pair of the ones that I purchased for a lot less than I paid originally (were for sale at the Apple store back in the day).  https://www.amazon.com/Bowers-Wilkins-Computer-Speakers-Built/dp/B003R6U6HG?th=1  They particularly come in handy when I want to listen to online radio programs (like from the BBC) and I want better sound and not being stuck in front of my iMac to listen to a program.

Will be interested in seeing what all you are happiest with in the end.  :)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on December 03, 2021, 01:11:07 AM
Quote from: Valentino on December 02, 2021, 12:12:04 AM
^In Norway the Topping headphone amps are quite popular. They seem to be able do drive anything. Mind you, they're designed to have no sound of their own so they will not be to everyones liking.

Throwing in a pic with a view to our living/listening room, wife's plastic sandals and all. The main speakers are as mentioned dipoles, designed to operate below the dipole peak (ok, that falls apart at about 6 kHz for physical reasons. The tweeter is just too big). In practice they shower the room with a frequency spectrum that doesn't change much as you move around. Subwoofers between the main speakers and the front wall. The listening chair is that rocking chair. I sit fairly close when I listen seriously, about 1,8 m speaker-ear. Note the 10 cm reflection killing "box" above the listening triangle. It also does wonders to the acoustics of this rather classic L-shaped Scandinavian living room.

Good to see a turntable is part of your system. A lot of speaker toe-in but with such a close listening position that makes perfect sense. I would slightly worry of sound radiating from the back of the speakers causing effect to the delicate interface between stylus and record.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 03, 2021, 04:12:01 PM
Quote from: Irons on December 03, 2021, 01:11:07 AM
Good to see a turntable is part of your system. A lot of speaker toe-in but with such a close listening position that makes perfect sense. I would slightly worry of sound radiating from the back of the speakers causing effect to the delicate interface between stylus and record.

I don't know about those speakers, but one can use extreme toe-in (so the speaker axes cross in front of the listener) to widen the sweet spot: as you move your head off center you move closer to one speaker but further off axis while you move further away from the other speaker but closer to on-axis.  This is called time-intensity trading.

I'm the only listener here at home, so I toe out my speakers slightly for a wider soundstage.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 04, 2021, 02:22:36 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on September 18, 2021, 02:35:32 PM
SPEAKERS: B&W 803D3
AMPLIFIER McIntosh MA9000
CD/SACD PLAYER: Esoteric K-03
DAC: Chord Qutest
TURNTABLE: VPI Prime Signature
PHONO CARTRIDGE: Ortofon Cadenza Bronze
BLU-RAY/DVD PLAYER: Oppo 205
HEADPHONES: Sennheiser HD800S and, Audeze LCD-XC

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.audio-markt.de%2Fdata%2Fmarket%2F21%2F2183428956_0_g.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi2.wp.com%2Flyricaudio.com%2Fweb%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F07%2FMcIntosh-MA9000-2.jpg%3Fssl%3D1&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.maplatine.com%2Fen%2F28192-thickbox_default%2Fvpi-prime-signature-vinyl-turntable.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fhifi-video.fr%2F2751-thickbox_default%2Fchord-qutest.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fucarecdn.audiogon.com%2F8b019dd5-ed4a-447b-bfcf-f3efd06aa0df%2F-%2Fscale_crop%2F840x630%2Fcenter%2F-%2Fquality%2Flightest%2F&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.maplatine.com%2Fen%2F2266-thickbox_default%2Fortofon-cadenza-bronze-mc-cartridge.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fhometheaterreview.com%2Fassets_c%2F2017%2F07%2FOppo-UDP-205-800x500-thumb-800xauto-17136.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fberitateknologi.id%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F12%2FSennheiser-HD-800-S-Review.png&f=1&nofb=1)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.bhphoto.com%2Fimages%2Fimages500x500%2Faudeze_lcdxc_wc_bb_lf_lcd_xc_high_performance_1408366216_1072781.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
Bachtoven,

Is that your dream system that you want to get one day or the one that you do have?  Or are you part way there in acquiring the pieces?  In any event, bet that it would sound lovely together!  I don't know the B&W 803D3, but some years ago, I tried out various B&W speakers at a store including their 801 Nautilus...fell in love with them.  Alas, they were too big for my living room--which was probably a good thing budget-wise for me at the time.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on December 05, 2021, 08:19:46 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 03, 2021, 04:12:01 PM
I don't know about those speakers, but one can use extreme toe-in (so the speaker axes cross in front of the listener) to widen the sweet spot: as you move your head off center you move closer to one speaker but further off axis while you move further away from the other speaker but closer to on-axis.  This is called time-intensity trading.

I'm the only listener here at home, so I toe out my speakers slightly for a wider soundstage.

I suppose it would be simple to measure toe-in. Take a straight line from the inside back edge and then measure the distance to outside back edge.

I have, with the help of my wife holding a piece of wood! My speakers are 21" wide and 15" out from rear wall. Surprisingly, as I originally positioned by eye the toe-in is exactly the same for both at 3". 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on December 05, 2021, 08:33:49 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 03, 2021, 04:12:01 PM
I don't know about those speakers, but one can use extreme toe-in (so the speaker axes cross in front of the listener) to widen the sweet spot: as you move your head off center you move closer to one speaker but further off axis while you move further away from the other speaker but closer to on-axis.  This is called time-intensity trading:  hadn't heard that before.

I'm the only listener here at home, so I toe out my speakers slightly for a wider soundstage.

By any chance do you mean listening area rather than or in addition to "soundstage".  It makes sense that the width of the listening area could be expanded by extreme toe-in.  Interesting the the effect is called "time-intensity trading".

Another effect of extreme toe-in is a reduction in early reflections that typically cause by sound bouncing of the wall near to the speaker.  This might have the effect of sharpening imaging.

Interesting maybe is that Audio Note (https://www.audionote.co.uk/) recommend that their speakers be placed very close to room corners and at 45 degrees with respect to each other's axis.  At most listening distances this wouldresult in extreme toe-in as well as weaker early reflections.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on December 05, 2021, 10:04:38 AM
Sorry for being away.
It's the only such system ever made. I see the inside of the speakers from the main listening position. It's a wide setup with a short listening distance. Makes a big stage without any  "hole" in the middle. That may have to do with the linear phase filters and the precise impulse response this system has. The speakers are as mentioned dipoles.
From 40 Hz to 6 kHz the radiation pattern is almost a perfect figure of eight. Below there are omnipole subwoofers and above the nude Mundorf AMTs just become too big and lobing starts.

I hear no acoustic feedback when playing records.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on December 06, 2021, 07:45:29 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on December 05, 2021, 08:33:49 AM
By any chance do you mean listening area rather than or in addition to "soundstage".  It makes sense that the width of the listening area could be expanded by extreme toe-in.  Interesting the the effect is called "time-intensity trading".

Another effect of extreme toe-in is a reduction in early reflections that typically cause by sound bouncing of the wall near to the speaker.  This might have the effect of sharpening imaging.

Interesting maybe is that Audio Note (https://www.audionote.co.uk/) recommend that their speakers be placed very close to room corners and at 45 degrees with respect to each other's axis.  At most listening distances this wouldresult in extreme toe-in as well as weaker early reflections.

Would not extreme toe-in result in loss of stereo imaging?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 06, 2021, 08:17:40 AM
Quote from: Irons on December 06, 2021, 07:45:29 AM
Would not extreme toe-in result in loss of stereo imaging?
Good point Irons!

From where mine are to my 'sweet spot', they are about 9 1/2 feet away. And, they're roughly 25 - 30 degrees toed in?  And a bit over 7 feet apart.  I'm very happy with how they sound.  :)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: fbjim on December 06, 2021, 08:23:16 AM
I've got powered speakers with Bluetooth and phono in. Can I post here?  :laugh:

(they're not bad for the money and I'm not setting up a "proper" system in an apartment bedroom)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 06, 2021, 08:26:42 AM
Quote from: fbjim on December 06, 2021, 08:23:16 AM
I've got powered speakers with Bluetooth and phono in. Can I post here?  :laugh:

(they're not bad for the money and I'm not setting up a "proper" system in an apartment bedroom)
Sure!  ;) :)  Is this a temporary situation or long-term (living in an apartment)?

All that matters is that you're able to listen to music and enjoy it!

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: fbjim on December 06, 2021, 08:29:45 AM
They're a set of Klipsch bookshelf speakers. I got an open box deal on them from a local audio shop- the next purchase is a new turntable to replace my defective one (and a setup to make them more isolated from the speaker vibrations).

It's probably the setup for the near future - the idea of owning my own place is financially improbable for the next decade or so, unless the housing market crashes.

For the record I think a lot of people my age are in the same boat, which is a big reason there are few mass-market/"mid-market" stereo receiver manufacturers these days (apart from the specialist high-end stuff, are there any apart from Onkyo?) and the big name companies are more or less trying to emulate Sonos.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 06, 2021, 09:17:32 AM
Quote from: fbjim on December 06, 2021, 08:29:45 AM
They're a set of Klipsch bookshelf speakers. I got an open box deal on them from a local audio shop- the next purchase is a new turntable to replace my defective one (and a setup to make them more isolated from the speaker vibrations).

It's probably the setup for the near future - the idea of owning my own place is financially improbable for the next decade or so, unless the housing market crashes.

For the record I think a lot of people my age are in the same boat, which is a big reason there are few mass-market/"mid-market" stereo receiver manufacturers these days (apart from the specialist high-end stuff, are there any apart from Onkyo?) and the big name companies are more or less trying to emulate Sonos.
Your best bet might be to do some online searching for used equipment (though I imagine that even that is going up in price these days) and also asking some of the more knowledgable members here about the brands and models too.  A friend of mines future son-in-law just purchased a used integrated amp nearby and also is wanting to get a better turntable (He has a huge record collection apparently).  I'm not sure what he paid for the amp, but from what I understand, he didn't have a huge budget.

Good luck in any event!   :)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 06, 2021, 12:41:12 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on December 05, 2021, 08:33:49 AM
By any chance do you mean listening area rather than or in addition to "soundstage".  It makes sense that the width of the listening area could be expanded by extreme toe-in.  Interesting the the effect is called "time-intensity trading".

Yes, the "sweet spot" is the area where the soundstage comes into focus and doesn't shift to the left or right speaker.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 06, 2021, 12:50:05 PM
Quote from: Irons on December 06, 2021, 07:45:29 AM
Would not extreme toe-in result in loss of stereo imaging?

It may improve imaging (focus of individual instrumental images in space), particularly the focus of center images, but perhaps at the cost of soundstage width. 

I don't think it's really necessary for a single listener sitting in the sweet spot.  My own speakers (Buchardt S400) are toed out 15 degrees or so.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: LKB on December 06, 2021, 01:13:34 PM
I don't actually listen to music very often these days, having memorized around 300 hours worth over decades. But when l do, it's from my laptop or my phone via AKG K702 headphones.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on December 07, 2021, 05:31:58 AM
Quote from: Irons on December 06, 2021, 07:45:29 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on December 05, 2021, 08:33:49 AM
Interesting maybe is that Audio Note (https://www.audionote.co.uk/) recommend that their speakers be placed very close to room corners and at 45 degrees with respect to each other's axis.  At most listening distances this wouldresult in extreme toe-in as well as weaker early reflections.

Would not extreme toe-in result in loss of stereo imaging?

I haven't heard such a setup myself.  However if, as I speculate, the arrangement reduces early, side wall reflections, it might actually improve stereo imaging provided the speakers have uniform dispersion across the frequency range.  That is, some speakers have a smooth on-axis response but jagged response off-axis which can only harm imaging.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on December 07, 2021, 07:44:10 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on December 07, 2021, 05:31:58 AM
Would not extreme toe-in result in loss of stereo imaging?


I haven't heard such a setup myself.  However if, as I speculate, the arrangement reduces early, side wall reflections, it might actually improve stereo imaging provided the speakers have uniform dispersion across the frequency range.  That is, some speakers have a smooth on-axis response but jagged response off-axis which can only harm imaging.

Although not a horn loaded speaker Audio Note - which are a copy of Snell speakers - are designed to use corners to boost bass. They are built to work that way. For most designs placing in a corner or up against a back wall results in muddy slurred sound. I would love my Tannoy speakers in such a position, the wife more so, but they sound horrible so aesthetically not the best and out in the room they stay.   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on December 07, 2021, 12:58:10 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 04, 2021, 02:22:36 AM
Bachtoven,

Is that your dream system that you want to get one day or the one that you do have?  Or are you part way there in acquiring the pieces?  In any event, bet that it would sound lovely together!  I don't know the B&W 803D3, but some years ago, I tried out various B&W speakers at a store including their 801 Nautilus...fell in love with them.  Alas, they were too big for my living room--which was probably a good thing budget-wise for me at the time.

PD

That's my system--I don't like posting actual pictures online. Yes, the components complement each other very nicely. I love the 803D3s--incredibly transparent, detailed, and dynamic.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 07, 2021, 01:32:57 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on December 07, 2021, 12:58:10 PM
That's my system--I don't like posting actual pictures online. Yes, the components complement each other very nicely. I love the 803D3s--incredibly transparent, detailed, and dynamic.
Neat!   Good to hear that you're enjoying it.  :)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: T. D. on December 07, 2021, 02:43:36 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on December 07, 2021, 12:58:10 PM
That's my system--I don't like posting actual pictures online. Yes, the components complement each other very nicely. I love the 803D3s--incredibly transparent, detailed, and dynamic.

Forgive a possibly stupid question, but with the Esoteric CD/SACD player/DAC pictured (original MSRP $12,000 or more), why the additional DAC? I assume you're not using the Esoteric unit as just a transport.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on December 07, 2021, 06:07:36 PM
Quote from: T. D. on December 07, 2021, 02:43:36 PM
Forgive a possibly stupid question, but with the Esoteric CD/SACD player/DAC pictured (original MSRP $12,000 or more), why the additional DAC? I assume you're not using the Esoteric unit as just a transport.
It's not stupid at all! The Esoteric's DAC will only play files up to 96kHz--I have many at 192kHz and quite a few DSD files. The latest generation players from Esoteric will play back those higher resolutions, though. And, if I were using the Esoteric as a transport, then I couldn't play the SACD layer on those discs. That would require a special output on the transport and special input on the DAC called an I2S in order to pass the DSD layer.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 07, 2021, 08:57:30 PM
Quote from: LKB on December 06, 2021, 01:13:34 PM
I don't actually listen to music very often these days, having memorized around 300 hours worth over decades. But when l do, it's from my laptop or my phone via AKG K702 headphones.

So you can play back all that music in your head?  So you must get the best sound of any of us.  Unless the acoustics are bad in there.  ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: LKB on December 08, 2021, 03:30:01 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 07, 2021, 08:57:30 PM
So you can play back all that music in your head?  So you must get the best sound of any of us.  Unless the acoustics are bad in there.  ;)

I can be as fuzzy-headed as anyone, but it doesn't seem to affect my " files ". Of course, I've probably lost some of it over the last 30 years. Not half l think, but some. It really was around 300 hours around 1990, when l was a young man.

There's a little game l play sometimes. I'll start running something in say, E-Flat Major, and then try to run a different piece along with it in an unrelated key. Absolute pitch ensures l " play by the rules " and don't inadvertently transpose something to make it easier. I'm able to keep it up for maybe twenty seconds, if I'm rested and focused.

But if l try to throw in a third piece, things break down quickly, after maybe two seconds. I wonder if that limitation is specific to me, or common across people who memorize music extensively.

I can almost hear the audiophiles rolling their eyeballs at this off-topic meandering, so I'll leave off here and maybe start or find a thread elsewhere.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Rinaldo on December 21, 2021, 07:47:20 AM
Quote from: LKB on December 08, 2021, 03:30:01 AMI can almost hear the audiophiles rolling their eyeballs at this off-topic meandering, so I'll leave off here and maybe start or find a thread elsewhere.

Not rolling my eyeballs, more like a silent, envious hiss :) I've got a healthy aural memory but absolute pitch... If only.

Back on topic, after years of thinking about taking the plunge, I've finally went for it. And by "it", I mean scouring the used market for a decent amp & speakers. The result was a refurbished Toshiba Aurex (https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/toshiba/sb-66.shtml) unit from the early eighties, seventy watts running into a pair of beaten up (visually) Focal Chorus 726's (https://www.focal.com/en/home-audio/high-fidelity-speakers/chorus-700/floorstanding-speakers/chorus-726) sold for over half their retail price, which made me happier than I'd imagined – and worth the hassle it took to haul them across the country.

(https://i.ibb.co/FWYs8j4/setup.jpg)

I don't see myself becoming a devoted audiophile (famous last words, eh?) but what a difference a good setup makes! The Focals are a bit bright but nothing that couldn't be fine tuned to my preferences on the amp. And what an amp it is: I had a suspicion it will sound rather nice, but I certainly wasn't expecting such a pristine, full-bodied goodness. I didn't experiment with its peculiar "Clean Drive" speaker connection – from what I've gathered, it solves some problems while introducing others and I'd rather spend my time listening to music. For the past week, I was just rummaging through my CD collection rediscovering pieces I thought I've heard. The discs slot into my trusty old Onkyo C-S5VL I've been using since 2011 and I'll be adding a record player soon, as evidenced by the vinyl sleeves creeping up at the bottom of the picture. How could I live this long without hearing music like this, I do not know.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on December 21, 2021, 08:27:12 AM
Good post!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 21, 2021, 09:31:59 AM
Congrats Rinaldo!  :)

Isn't it amazing when you can hear so much more detail through a system?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on December 21, 2021, 10:57:57 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on December 21, 2021, 07:47:20 AM
Not rolling my eyeballs, more like a silent, envious hiss :) I've got a healthy aural memory but absolute pitch... If only.

Back on topic, after years of thinking about taking the plunge, I've finally went for it. And by "it", I mean scouring the used market for a decent amp & speakers. The result was a refurbished Toshiba Aurex (https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/toshiba/sb-66.shtml) unit from the early eighties, seventy watts running into a pair of beaten up (visually) Focal Chorus 726's (https://www.focal.com/en/home-audio/high-fidelity-speakers/chorus-700/floorstanding-speakers/chorus-726) sold for over half their retail price, which made me happier than I'd imagined – and worth the hassle it took to haul them across the country.

(https://i.ibb.co/FWYs8j4/setup.jpg)

I don't see myself becoming a devoted audiophile (famous last words, eh?) but what a difference a good setup makes! The Focals are a bit bright but nothing that couldn't be fine tuned to my preferences on the amp. And what an amp it is: I had a suspicion it will sound rather nice, but I certainly wasn't expecting such a pristine, full-bodied goodness. I didn't experiment with its peculiar "Clean Drive" speaker connection – from what I've gathered, it solves some problems while introducing others and I'd rather spend my time listening to music. For the past week, I was just rummaging through my CD collection rediscovering pieces I thought I've heard. The discs slot into my trusty old Onkyo C-S5VL I've been using since 2011 and I'll be adding a record player soon, as evidenced by the vinyl sleeves creeping up at the bottom of the picture. How could I live this long without hearing music like this, I do not know.

Congratulations on achieving Audio Satisfaction. It is always great when a system comes together to make a mark on one's listening.  8)

I am curious to know what you play your vinyl on, if I may ask?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 21, 2021, 12:06:44 PM
Quote from: aligreto on December 21, 2021, 10:57:57 AM
Congratulations on achieving Audio Satisfaction. It is always great when a system comes together to make a mark on one's listening.  8)

I am curious to know what you play your vinyl on, if I may ask?
I don't believe that he has a turntable Fergus.  Scroll up again and reread his posting.  Or perhaps he's trying to upgrade?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on December 21, 2021, 01:36:36 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 21, 2021, 12:06:44 PM
I don't believe that he has a turntable Fergus.  Scroll up again and reread his posting.  Or perhaps he's trying to upgrade?

PD

Yes, PD, you seem to be correct here and I missed that important point.  :-[
That is, however, a fair amount of vinyl to own without a TT.
Good luck with the search, Rinaldo, and do inform the details if and when you do purchase a TT.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 21, 2021, 03:02:08 PM
Quote from: Rinaldo on December 21, 2021, 07:47:20 AM
The result was a refurbished Toshiba Aurex (https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/toshiba/sb-66.shtml) unit from the early eighties, seventy watts running into a pair of beaten up (visually) Focal Chorus 726's (https://www.focal.com/en/home-audio/high-fidelity-speakers/chorus-700/floorstanding-speakers/chorus-726) sold for over half their retail price, which made me happier than I'd imagined – and worth the hassle it took to haul them across the country.

Congrats.  I've read great things about the Focals.  They seem to know what they are doing on the engineering side.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on December 22, 2021, 12:00:46 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on December 21, 2021, 07:47:20 AM
Not rolling my eyeballs, more like a silent, envious hiss :) I've got a healthy aural memory but absolute pitch... If only.

Back on topic, after years of thinking about taking the plunge, I've finally went for it. And by "it", I mean scouring the used market for a decent amp & speakers. The result was a refurbished Toshiba Aurex (https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/toshiba/sb-66.shtml) unit from the early eighties, seventy watts running into a pair of beaten up (visually) Focal Chorus 726's (https://www.focal.com/en/home-audio/high-fidelity-speakers/chorus-700/floorstanding-speakers/chorus-726) sold for over half their retail price, which made me happier than I'd imagined – and worth the hassle it took to haul them across the country.

(https://i.ibb.co/FWYs8j4/setup.jpg)

I don't see myself becoming a devoted audiophile (famous last words, eh?) but what a difference a good setup makes! The Focals are a bit bright but nothing that couldn't be fine tuned to my preferences on the amp. And what an amp it is: I had a suspicion it will sound rather nice, but I certainly wasn't expecting such a pristine, full-bodied goodness. I didn't experiment with its peculiar "Clean Drive" speaker connection – from what I've gathered, it solves some problems while introducing others and I'd rather spend my time listening to music. For the past week, I was just rummaging through my CD collection rediscovering pieces I thought I've heard. The discs slot into my trusty old Onkyo C-S5VL I've been using since 2011 and I'll be adding a record player soon, as evidenced by the vinyl sleeves creeping up at the bottom of the picture. How could I live this long without hearing music like this, I do not know.

Congratulations. You have built a fine system without paying way over the odds.  Does "Clean Drive" simply bypass tone controls?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Rinaldo on December 22, 2021, 02:43:11 AM
Quote from: aligreto on December 21, 2021, 01:36:36 PMThat is, however, a fair amount of vinyl to own without a TT.  Good luck with the search, Rinaldo, and do inform the details if and when you do purchase a TT.

The vinyls are a mix of non-classical music (usually records bought at gigs), Czech composers and the odd record store / thrift shop pickup here and there. I'm "between" turntables right now – had a cheap one with a built-in preamp and now I'm looking for an upgrade to go with the Aurex. Hope to find something solid in the 200-300 $ price range. This Fluance unit (https://www.fluance.com/rt82w-reference-high-fidelity-vinyl-turntable-natural-walnut) caught my eye but I've yet to cast a searchlight on what's out there.

Quote from: Daverz on December 21, 2021, 03:02:08 PMCongrats.  I've read great things about the Focals.  They seem to know what they are doing on the engineering side.

Years ago, I was impressed by a bunch of bookshelf Focals – the Arias I think? – my friend used to wow me with. They sounded particularly good with vocal and spectral music. Very natural and "present", if that makes any sense. Had the brand in mind since then and while I've considered the available competition, the deal was just too good to pass up.

Quote from: Irons on December 22, 2021, 12:00:46 AMCongratulations. You have built a fine system without paying way over the odds.  Does "Clean Drive" simply bypass tone controls?

Thank you! As for the Clean Drive, this is what I dug up, automatically translated from Japanese so a little flexibility is needed:

QuoteIn the clean drive system, the distortion component detection code is added to the minus terminal side of the speaker, which detects the distortion component generated in the speaker and feeds it back into the amplifier. Then, the feedback amount is adjusted and sent out so as to cancel the distortion component in the amplifier. This cancels out the distortion by the transmission characteristic of a speaker cable and the back electromotive force generated in a speaker, and is trying to improve the dynamic characteristic.

Since almost no current flows through this detection cord, there is no voltage drop, and distortion components can be detected with the speaker terminals. In addition, the cord also detects the impedance with the speaker cable, and as a result, the voltage at the speaker input terminal becomes equal to the output voltage of the amplifier, and it is driven by a constant voltage. By adopting this clean drive method, the harmonic distortion factor when used by connecting to a speaker is reduced to 1/10 or less, and the cross modulation distortion is also improved sharply. Moreover, since all the impedances of the amplifier and the speaker cable can be canceled, the impedance when looking at the amplifier side from the speaker input terminal becomes zero, and the damping factor at the speaker input terminal becomes infinite.

And here's some German advertisement that I sort of understand but still didn't motivate me enough...

(https://i.ibb.co/b7Kbh0r/clean-1.jpg) (https://i.ibb.co/RjFvfrY/clean-2.jpg)

I might give it a try eventually, if only for the cool front panel logo to light up, which will obviously boost listening enjoyment by at least 22,63 % 8)

(https://i.ibb.co/pwz6Gq4/clean-3.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Rinaldo on December 22, 2021, 02:49:56 AM
Quote from: The new erato on December 21, 2021, 08:27:12 AM
Good post!

To be honest, the photo from your signature is one of the things that have set me on this path since I've been on GMG. Cheers!

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 21, 2021, 09:31:59 AM
Congrats Rinaldo!  :)

Isn't it amazing when you can hear so much more detail through a system?

PD


Oh indeed. Feels like being back at the concert hall, with volume exactly as loud as I want it to be.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 22, 2021, 02:55:28 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on December 22, 2021, 02:43:11 AM
Years ago, I was impressed by a bunch of bookshelf Focals – the Arias I think? – my friend used to wow me with. They sounded particularly good with vocal and spectral music. Very natural and "present", if that makes any sense. Had the brand in mind since then and while I've considered the available competition, the deal was just too good to pass up.

Looking at the Focal specs, they say "8 Ohms nominal" impedance, but 2.9 Ohms minumum (probably in the bass).  There are some (pretty basic) measurements here:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/focal-jmlab-chorus-s-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

The Toshiba specifies 8 to 16 Ohm speaker loads, which implies it's not comfortable going down that low.  You may get more bass grunt with an amp that can handle (at least) 4 ohm loads.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 22, 2021, 03:24:54 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on December 22, 2021, 02:43:11 AM
The vinyls are a mix of non-classical music (usually records bought at gigs), Czech composers and the odd record store / thrift shop pickup here and there. I'm "between" turntables right now – had a cheap one with a built-in preamp and now I'm looking for an upgrade to go with the Aurex. Hope to find something solid in the 200-300 $ price range. This Fluance unit (https://www.fluance.com/rt82w-reference-high-fidelity-vinyl-turntable-natural-walnut) caught my eye but I've yet to cast a searchlight on what's out there.

I might give it a try eventually, if only for the cool front panel logo to light up, which will obviously boost listening enjoyment by at least 22,63 % 8)

(https://i.ibb.co/pwz6Gq4/clean-3.jpg)
:laugh: ;D  And I used to love watching these (on our Christmas tree) when I was a kid:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7d/a2/32/7da232ecb9896c2974814ac964878f5e.jpg)

These days, I prefer the plain, non-moving white ones.  ;)  :)

I haven't heard of Fluance before now.  Have others here?  One thought--though this might be out of your currant price range--would be to get a turntable that you can add various upgrades to overtime....new or used.  For example, I have a friend who owns a Linn turntable that he loves (I forget which model but would be happy to ask him for you if you like.  We talk all of the time).  His power supply finally died, so he found a new one on eBay which was better than his old one and if I'm recalling correctly, also made it easier to go between playing 45's and 33's.  Personally, I have a Rega that I love.

Good luck!

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Rinaldo on December 22, 2021, 04:40:01 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 22, 2021, 02:55:28 AM
Looking at the Focal specs, they say "8 Ohms nominal" impedance, but 2.9 Ohms minumum (probably in the bass).  There are some (pretty basic) measurements here:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/focal-jmlab-chorus-s-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

The Toshiba specifies 8 to 16 Ohm speaker loads, which implies it's not comfortable going down that low.  You may get more bass grunt with an amp that can handle (at least) 4 ohm loads.

Good to know – I'll check it out, as this goes beyond my current (pun partially intended) knowledge. The amp has a switch to 4 Ω though, so it shouldn't be completely out of its water I guess? The bass sounds satisfactory, although I did have to tweak it a bit with the tone controls. Definitely something to educate myself about, thanks!

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 22, 2021, 03:24:54 AMI haven't heard of Fluance before now.  Have others here?  One thought--though this might be out of your currant price range--would be to get a turntable that you can add various upgrades to overtime....new or used.  For example, I have a friend who owns a Linn turntable that he loves (I forget which model but would be happy to ask him for you if you like.  We talk all of the time).  His power supply finally died, so he found a new one on eBay which was better than his old one and if I'm recalling correctly, also made it easier to go between playing 45's and 33's.  Personally, I have a Rega that I love.

Good luck!

PD

Yeah, that might be the way to go. The quest continues :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on December 22, 2021, 05:15:06 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on December 22, 2021, 02:43:11 AM
n the clean drive system, the distortion component detection code is added to the minus terminal side of the speaker, which detects the distortion component generated in the speaker and feeds it back into the amplifier. Then, the feedback amount is adjusted and sent out so as to cancel the distortion component in the amplifier. This cancels out the distortion by the transmission characteristic of a speaker cable and the back electromotive force generated in a speaker, and is trying to improve the dynamic characteristic.

Since almost no current flows through this detection cord, there is no voltage drop, and distortion components can be detected with the speaker terminals. In addition, the cord also detects the impedance with the speaker cable, and as a result, the voltage at the speaker input terminal becomes equal to the output voltage of the amplifier, and it is driven by a constant voltage. By adopting this clean drive method, the harmonic distortion factor when used by connecting to a speaker is reduced to 1/10 or less, and the cross modulation distortion is also improved sharply. Moreover, since all the impedances of the amplifier and the speaker cable can be canceled, the impedance when looking at the amplifier side from the speaker input terminal becomes zero, and the damping factor at the speaker input terminal becomes infinite.

Interesting. That sound pretty similar to what is known as a "four wire connection" in a lot of technical instrumentation. The main pair of wires delivers current and a secondary pair of wires measures the potential difference (voltage) on the load, allowing the desired signal to put applied to the load and not to the leads which connect to the load. I always wondered why audio components didn't use this method, and now I know that some do. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on December 23, 2021, 05:48:19 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on December 22, 2021, 02:43:11 AM
The vinyls are a mix of non-classical music (usually records bought at gigs), Czech composers and the odd record store / thrift shop pickup here and there. I'm "between" turntables right now – had a cheap one with a built-in preamp and now I'm looking for an upgrade to go with the Aurex. Hope to find something solid in the 200-300 $ price range. This Fluance unit (https://www.fluance.com/rt82w-reference-high-fidelity-vinyl-turntable-natural-walnut) caught my eye but I've yet to cast a searchlight on what's out there.


Best of luck with the search and do post your eventual decision.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 23, 2021, 09:48:44 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on December 22, 2021, 02:43:11 AM
The vinyls are a mix of non-classical music (usually records bought at gigs), Czech composers and the odd record store / thrift shop pickup here and there. I'm "between" turntables right now – had a cheap one with a built-in preamp and now I'm looking for an upgrade to go with the Aurex. Hope to find something solid in the 200-300 $ price range. This Fluance unit (https://www.fluance.com/rt82w-reference-high-fidelity-vinyl-turntable-natural-walnut) caught my eye but I've yet to cast a searchlight on what's out there.

I'm envious of your access to old Supraphon LPs!  😻

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: fbjim on December 23, 2021, 09:54:12 AM
How "legit" are the western-sold Supraphon LPs? I have a box of the old Kletzki cycle (really excellent) and they do indicate they were made in Czechoslovakia.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 02, 2022, 06:55:56 AM
Just for the fun of it: My audio system's frequency response measured at the listening position, maritime colour coding. I find that BBC-esque dip at 2-3 kHz necessary for most of the music I play, and the general falling trend as the frequency increases  is similar to what Toole/Olive and also Linkwitz found.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 02, 2022, 07:44:36 AM
Quote from: Valentino on January 02, 2022, 06:55:56 AM
Just for the fun of it: My audio system's frequency response measured at the listening position, maritime colour coding. I find that BBC-esque dip at 2-3 kHz necessary for most of the music I play, and the general falling trend as the frequency increases  is similar to what Toole/Olive and also Linkwitz found.

It's interesting to me what you say about a "BBC-esque dip" being your preference.  I recall reading on another site -- unfortunately I can't find a link -- that had a post by none other than Floyd Toole himself:  Toole said that the B&W speakers, widely favoured as monitors by mixing engineers, tend to have such a dip in their response.

Toole didn't say so in as many words, but the implication was that engineers using those B&W speakers would tend to boast recording's responses in that 2-3 kHz region to off set the monitors' dips.  That being the case, listeners not using the same B&W speakers would tend to fined flat speaker responses bright in that range -- not the fault of the speakers but of recordings mastered using B&W monitors.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 02, 2022, 09:37:04 AM
Yes, the 800-series had a rather grotesque dip in the ears's most sensitive area.
Siegfried Linkwitz ended up with a BBC-esque dip on speakers he designed. Some switchable, some not:
QuoteAround 3 kHz our hearing is less sensitive to diffuse fields. Recording microphones, though, are usually flat in frequency response even under diffuse field conditions. When such recordings are played back over loudspeakers, there is more energy in the 3 kHz region than we would have perceived if present at the recording venue and a degree of unnaturalness is introduced.
This applies primarily to recordings of large orchestral pieces in concert halls where the microphones are much closer to the instruments than any listener. At most listening positions in the hall the sound field has strong diffuse components.
I use a dip of 4 dB to equalize for this. You may choose to make the notch filter selectable with a switch for different types of recordings.
https://www.linkwitzlab.com/models.htm#H

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 02, 2022, 11:13:23 AM
Quote from: Valentino on January 02, 2022, 09:37:04 AM
Yes, the 800-series had a rather grotesque dip in the ears's most sensitive area.
Siegfried Linkwitz ended up with a BBC-esque dip on speakers he designed. Some switchable, some not:
QuoteAround 3 kHz our hearing is less sensitive to diffuse fields. Recording microphones, though, are usually flat in frequency response even under diffuse field conditions. When such recordings are played back over loudspeakers, there is more energy in the 3 kHz region than we would have perceived if present at the recording venue and a degree of unnaturalness is introduced.
This applies primarily to recordings of large orchestral pieces in concert halls where the microphones are much closer to the instruments than any listener. At most listening positions in the hall the sound field has strong diffuse components.
I use a dip of 4 dB to equalize for this. You may choose to make the notch filter selectable with a switch for different types of recordings.
https://www.linkwitzlab.com/models.htm#H

Well that's interesting:  Linkwitz ascribes the brightness to human hearing vs. the microphones whereas Toole's comments imply, (to me at least), that is due to the "dip" in B&W speakers.  In any case the solution for the used to dip response the 2-3 kHz range.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on January 02, 2022, 11:23:37 AM
This is not quite the place for it, but I have a question for Apple Mac users, in particular.

I'm a headphone listener and like to have "cross-feed," in which the left channel, delayed by the sound transit time across your head and low-pass filtered, is fed to the right channel, and vice versa. This simulates hearing left and right speakers in your listening room and makes headphone listening sound more like loudspeaker listening.

I do this with an old headphone amplifier that implements cross-feed using analog circuitry. A "HeadRoom Little," which is not longer manufactured.

It seems obvious that the sensible way to implement cross-feed in a digital playback system is by simple digital signal processing. I know this is doable on foobar2000, which is a Windows medial player. Anyone know of a way to do it on Mac? Swinsian and VLC, which I have used, don't support cross-feed or plugins (that I can tell). There is a program called Vox which I have read has a cross-feed-like feature if you pay for the premium package. The blurb doesn't sound very audiophiley.

Anyone know of a media player that does cross-feed well on a Mac?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 02, 2022, 01:57:25 PM
Quote from: fbjim on December 23, 2021, 09:54:12 AM
How "legit" are the western-sold Supraphon LPs? I have a box of the old Kletzki cycle (really excellent) and they do indicate they were made in Czechoslovakia.

I'm not aware of any illegitimate Supraphon LPs from back in the day.  You probably know about the Crossroads LPs of Czech recordings licensed by Epic.  I tend to like those.

https://www.supraphon.com/about-us

The Kletzki cycle sounds wonderful on Supraphon CDs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Rinaldo on January 11, 2022, 02:42:11 AM
My turntable hunt came to a swift conclusion, as I came across a sweet deal for a restored Technics SL-BD3 (https://www.vinylengine.com/library/technics/sl-bd3.shtml).

(https://i.ibb.co/W08c6kh/tech.jpg)

The one I bought is a different unit than pictured but the condition is pretty much the same. It's fully automated, has a handy repeat function and while it's a belt-driven player that can't compete with anything truly hi-fi, it's quite competent and will do for now. I'm gonna comb through my LPs – yup, plenty of Supraphon and also Soviet-era gems there – and check their individual condition. I've played some Gilels Beethoven sonatas yesterday and was pleasantly surprised by the clarity of the sound. I've also tried some brand new records bought recently and they sounded superb. Hearing Willem Dafoe on Lou Reed's The Raven was like having him right there in the living room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 11, 2022, 03:05:36 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on January 11, 2022, 02:42:11 AM
My turntable hunt came to a swift conclusion, as I came across a sweet deal for a restored Technics SL-BD3 (https://www.vinylengine.com/library/technics/sl-bd3.shtml).

(https://i.ibb.co/W08c6kh/tech.jpg)

The one I bought is a different unit than pictured but the condition is pretty much the same. It's fully automated, has a handy repeat function and while it's a belt-driven player that can't compete with anything truly hi-fi, it's quite competent and will do for now. I'm gonna comb through my LPs – yup, plenty of Supraphon and also Soviet-era gems there – and check their individual condition. I've played some Gilels Beethoven sonatas yesterday and was pleasantly surprised by the clarity of the sound. I've also tried some brand new records bought recently and they sounded superb. Hearing Willem Dafoe on Lou Reed's The Raven was like having him right there in the living room.
Congrats Rinaldo!  Happy for you!

May I ask roughly what you paid for yours?  I'm tempted to get a second record player for my older stereo upstairs.  And how old is it?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on January 11, 2022, 03:06:09 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on January 11, 2022, 02:42:11 AM
My turntable hunt came to a swift conclusion, as I came across a sweet deal for a restored Technics SL-BD3 (https://www.vinylengine.com/library/technics/sl-bd3.shtml).

(https://i.ibb.co/W08c6kh/tech.jpg)

The one I bought is a different unit than pictured but the condition is pretty much the same. It's fully automated, has a handy repeat function and while it's a belt-driven player that can't compete with anything truly hi-fi, it's quite competent and will do for now. I'm gonna comb through my LPs – yup, plenty of Supraphon and also Soviet-era gems there – and check their individual condition. I've played some Gilels Beethoven sonatas yesterday and was pleasantly surprised by the clarity of the sound. I've also tried some brand new records bought recently and they sounded superb. Hearing Willem Dafoe on Lou Reed's The Raven was like having him right there in the living room.

Congratulations to you. I am sure that will give you endless hours of enjoyment which I see you are already planning  8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Rinaldo on January 11, 2022, 07:04:56 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 11, 2022, 03:05:36 AM
Congrats Rinaldo!  Happy for you!

May I ask roughly what you paid for yours?  I'm tempted to get a second record player for my older stereo upstairs. And how old is it?

PD

Thanks! By today's conversion rate, it cost me 170 $. The model was in production between 1985-1990, so thirtysomething years old I guess? It's got a newer catridge (an EPS-30) and the belt was replaced recently.

Quote from: aligreto on January 11, 2022, 03:06:09 AMCongratulations to you. I am sure that will give you endless hours of enjoyment which I see you are already planning  8)

You bet! Looking forward to Friday evening, when I'll test augmenting the aural experience with a fine bottle of Barbaresco ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 11, 2022, 07:14:02 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on January 11, 2022, 07:04:56 AM
Thanks! By today's conversion rate, it cost me 170 $. The model was in production between 1985-1990, so thirtysomething years old I guess? It's got a newer catridge (an EPS-30) and the belt was replaced recently.

You bet! Looking forward to Friday evening, when I'll test augmenting the aural experience with a fine bottle of Barbaresco ;D
Thanks!  And have fun with on Friday...and enjoy the wine!  ;)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on January 11, 2022, 07:43:02 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on January 11, 2022, 07:04:56 AM
You bet! Looking forward to Friday evening, when I'll test augmenting the aural experience with a fine bottle of Barbaresco ;D

Sounds like a good plan to me  8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on January 11, 2022, 08:50:51 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on January 11, 2022, 02:42:11 AM
My turntable hunt came to a swift conclusion, as I came across a sweet deal for a restored Technics SL-BD3 (https://www.vinylengine.com/library/technics/sl-bd3.shtml).

(https://i.ibb.co/W08c6kh/tech.jpg)

The one I bought is a different unit than pictured but the condition is pretty much the same. It's fully automated, has a handy repeat function and while it's a belt-driven player that can't compete with anything truly hi-fi, it's quite competent and will do for now. I'm gonna comb through my LPs – yup, plenty of Supraphon and also Soviet-era gems there – and check their individual condition. I've played some Gilels Beethoven sonatas yesterday and was pleasantly surprised by the clarity of the sound. I've also tried some brand new records bought recently and they sounded superb. Hearing Willem Dafoe on Lou Reed's The Raven was like having him right there in the living room.

Looks just like the one I had in the 80's I occasionally think it would be nice to get a turntable again. Then I remember I threw out all of my LPs. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 11, 2022, 11:40:17 AM
Is anyone here using Dirac Live (https://www.dirac.com/live/) or similar room correction DSP software or devices?  What is your experience?

I am very likely to spring for a miniDSP SHD Studio (https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-studio) device that comes with the Dirac Live software.  It can run Dirac Live stand-alone once Dirac has be setup and using computer.  The SHD Studio, SHD, and SHD Power from miniuDSP all do streaming via Volumio and are "Roon-ready".

(https://www.minidsp.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/282A4875.jpg)
(https://www.minidsp.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/282A4826.jpg)

The SHD Studio has only digital outputs whereas the SHD accepts an analogy input, (i.e. does ADC), and has balance and single-end analog outputs.  The Studio will be fine for me because I have a good DAC and from there will feed my tube preamplifier.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 11, 2022, 04:21:45 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 11, 2022, 11:40:17 AM
Is anyone here using Dirac Live (https://www.dirac.com/live/) or similar room correction DSP software or devices?  What is your experience?

I am very likely to spring for a miniDSP SHD Studio (https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-studio) device that comes with the Dirac Live software.  It can run Dirac Live stand-alone once Dirac has be setup and using computer.  The SHD Studio, SHD, and SHD Power from miniuDSP all do streaming via Volumio and are "Roon-ready".

(https://www.minidsp.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/282A4875.jpg)
(https://www.minidsp.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/282A4826.jpg)

The SHD Studio has only digital outputs whereas the SHD accepts an analogy input, (i.e. does ADC), and has balance and single-end analog outputs.  The Studio will be fine for me because I have a good DAC and from there will feed my tube preamplifier.

They have a new, cheaper product (unbalanced outputs) in that line-up, the Flex:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/flex

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/minidsp-flex.28660/




Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 11, 2022, 10:57:28 PM
Was looking into the full width SHD as a replacement for my PC (running the crossovers and eq), RME Fireface UC sound card and Yamaha WXC-50 streaming-preamplifier, but was told it supports a maximum of 4 output channels even if there are 4 xlr, 4 rca and 4 spdif output channel sockets. I need 8 output channels.

So: It might be possible to achieve what I want with 1 SHD Studio and 2 SHD Flex (Balanced TRS version).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 12, 2022, 06:37:56 AM
Quote from: Daverz on January 11, 2022, 04:21:45 PM
They have a new, cheaper product (unbalanced outputs) in that line-up, the Flex:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/flex

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/minidsp-flex.28660/

Thanks.  Yes, the Flex is a good alternative depending on one's needs.  Adding Dirac Live to the Flex costs US$200 addition bringing the price a bit closer to the Studio.  The Flex does have BlueTooth but no headphone amp

I'll probably go for the Studio because it adds Volumio streaming and more convenient XLR outputs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 12, 2022, 06:45:51 AM
Quote from: Valentino on January 11, 2022, 10:57:28 PM
Was looking into the full width SHD as a replacement for my PC (running the crossovers and eq), RME Fireface UC sound card and Yamaha WXC-50 streaming-preamplifier, but was told it supports a maximum of 4 output channels even if there are 4 xlr, 4 rca and 4 spdif output channel sockets. I need 8 output channels.

So: It might be possible to achieve what I want with 1 SHD Studio and 2 SHD Flex (Balanced TRS version).

Don't know a whole lot about it, but for a PC based system, I've heard that either Acourate or Audiolense are higher end options to Dirac Life.  I don't know if they offer more crossover capabilities, though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 12, 2022, 07:03:27 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 12, 2022, 06:45:51 AM
Don't know a whole lot about it, but for a PC based system, I've heard that either Acourate or Audiolense are higher end options to Dirac Life.  I don't know if they offer more crossover capabilities, though.

I've been using Acourate for a couple months, but have never used Dirac, so can't compare.  It took me a couple weeks to get comfortable with Acourate's clunky interface, but be warned that it is initially quite frustrating.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 12, 2022, 11:06:52 PM
I do not use an automated room correction setup. Measurements and tuning by ear is my way, resulting in an 8 db drop from 100 Hz to 10 kHz and that shallow BBC-dip. The first room reflections are already 20 dB down.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on January 13, 2022, 04:01:28 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 11, 2022, 11:40:17 AM
Is anyone here using Dirac Live (https://www.dirac.com/live/) or similar room correction DSP software or devices?  What is your experience?

I am very likely to spring for a miniDSP SHD Studio (https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-studio) device that comes with the Dirac Live software.  It can run Dirac Live stand-alone once Dirac has be setup and using computer.  The SHD Studio, SHD, and SHD Power from miniuDSP all do streaming via Volumio and are "Roon-ready".

(https://www.minidsp.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/282A4875.jpg)
(https://www.minidsp.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/282A4826.jpg)

The SHD Studio has only digital outputs whereas the SHD accepts an analogy input, (i.e. does ADC), and has balance and single-end analog outputs.  The Studio will be fine for me because I have a good DAC and from there will feed my tube preamplifier.

I have never heard Dirac or MiniDSP but after hearing speakers that used DSP for crossovers I'm now convinced this is the way I have to go for my next set of speakers, thinking Kii Three + BXT in several living rooms that I don't want massively imposing speakers in.

They just sound stunning when they can do things like cardioid bass where the sound of the room gets removed from the equation. And I say this as someone whose favorite speakers of all time are Quad ESL57 currently being used with a valve amp :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 06, 2022, 08:14:10 PM
I was thinking of getting a FiiO K5 DAC/Headphone amp, which has headphone output as well as RCA line level outputs so it can also be used to send signal to an audio amplifier (or powered speakers, etc). It uses an external power supply (rather than depending on USB power). I'm expecting to use it mainly for streaming audio from my Mac over USB (although the optical and coax digital inputs might come in handy). I will mainly use it to drive my Beyerdynamic T1 headphones. It costs about $200.

Can anyone suggest something at a similar price point that they believe is better.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71vEjM5+coL._AC_SL0800_.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on February 06, 2022, 08:32:23 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 06, 2022, 08:14:10 PM
I was thinking of getting a FiiO K5 DAC/Headphone amp, which has headphone output as well as RCA line level outputs so it can also be used to send signal to an audio amplifier (or powered speakers, etc). It uses an external power supply (rather than depending on USB power). I'm expecting to use it mainly for streaming audio from my Mac over USB (although the optical and coax digital inputs might come in handy). I will mainly use it to drive my Beyerdynamic T1 headphones. It costs about $200.

Can anyone suggest something at a similar price point that they believe is better.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71vEjM5+coL._AC_SL0800_.jpg)

I own this exact FiiO headphone amplifier and have no problems with it. Fidelity is excellent. What's nice is the three gain stages on the front of the unit, so if you have a pair of headphones that need to be driven a bit hard, you can do it with ease but also no noise, which is always a good thing. I think you'll be satisfied with it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 07, 2022, 01:27:34 AM
Quote from: hvbias on January 13, 2022, 04:01:28 PMI have never heard Dirac or MiniDSP but after hearing speakers that used DSP for crossovers I'm now convinced this is the way I have to go for my next set of speakers, thinking Kii Three + BXT in several living rooms that I don't want massively imposing speakers in.
I suggest you also look to Norwegian https://www.sigbergaudio.no/ for a purpose like that. Smart speakers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 07, 2022, 07:23:00 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 06, 2022, 08:32:23 PM
I own this exact FiiO headphone amplifier and have no problems with it. Fidelity is excellent. What's nice is the three gain stages on the front of the unit, so if you have a pair of headphones that need to be driven a bit hard, you can do it with ease but also no noise, which is always a good thing. I think you'll be satisfied with it.

A ringing endorsement, thanks!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on February 07, 2022, 07:25:33 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 07, 2022, 07:23:00 AM
A ringing endorsement, thanks!

You're welcome. 8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 11, 2022, 02:35:19 PM
Amir has reviewed the MiniDSP Flex:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/minidsp-flex-review-audio-dsp.30804/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on February 12, 2022, 03:44:15 AM
Quote from: Daverz on February 11, 2022, 02:35:19 PM
Amir has reviewed the MiniDSP Flex:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/minidsp-flex-review-audio-dsp.30804/

Yes, he has and with ringing endorsement.

I haven't moved yet but I want Dirac Live room correction.  However I think my choice will be the miniDSP SHD Studio.

In favour of the Flex versus SHD Studio:
In favour of the SHD Studio:
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 12, 2022, 04:32:50 AM
Quote from: Daverz on February 11, 2022, 02:35:19 PM
Amir has reviewed the MiniDSP Flex:

I'm not sure what that thing does.

Besides the FiiO K5, the Schiit Asgard with delta-sigma DAC module.

(https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/images/asgard%203%20black%20front%201920.jpg)

There's also the option of separate DAC and headphone amps, the Schiit Magni + Schiit Modi.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 12, 2022, 05:09:29 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 12, 2022, 04:32:50 AM
I'm not sure what that thing does.

It provides 4 DAC channels with DSP (there's also an ADC for analog input).  So you can do things like bass management with 1 or 2 subwoofers with low-pass filters for the subs and high-pass filters for the main speakers.  Or you could implement a completely digital crossover for a pair of 2-way speakers.  On top of that you can do room EQ.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on February 13, 2022, 05:08:27 AM
Quote from: Valentino on February 07, 2022, 01:27:34 AM
I suggest you also look to Norwegian https://www.sigbergaudio.no/ for a purpose like that. Smart speakers.

I was mostly interested in Kii 3 and D&D 8c since there are many independent measurements out there that show them as near unimpeachable. And have an online friend that swears by the D&D after selling off ~$100k Magico system. I'm more drawn to the Kii for lower distortion in the bass and BXT allowing cardioid frequency to be extended lower for less room interference, but my wife and I both like the look of the D&D 8c more. First world problems  :laugh:
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 20, 2022, 02:56:59 PM
I've moved my stereo out of my "stereo room" so that I may convert the room into a guest bedroom.  Now that it is in the significantly larger living room, it is truly amazing how my speakers sing in that larger space!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on March 20, 2022, 11:05:49 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 12, 2022, 04:32:50 AM
I'm not sure what that thing does.

Besides the FiiO K5, the Schiit Asgard with delta-sigma DAC module.

(https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/images/asgard%203%20black%20front%201920.jpg)

There's also the option of separate DAC and headphone amps, the Schiit Magni + Schiit Modi.

I recently got the Asgard 3 and decided to pair it up with the Schiit Modi 3+. It sounds great.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on May 09, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
I've been using my dac in preamp mode (so it just uses digital attenuation), but I just bought the Schitt Freya S.  I really couldn't believe how much improved the SQ is.  Smooth, articulate, full.  It is all there.  I started with Aho's Trombone Concerto and the sharp, shrill edge on the trombone is gone.  It sounded musical and full.  I moved on to my other challenge the Fischer Mahler 9 and it sounded expressive in a way that it didn't before.  I was also shocked how layered the sound was.  All the different parts of the orchestra were in their own space.

(https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/images/imagecache_thumbnail_product_mobile/freya%20S%20front.jpg)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODUxOTUyNC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NDUxMjM2OTl9)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81hg7KMlybL._SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 10, 2022, 07:39:11 AM
Quote from: DavidW on May 09, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
I've been using my dac in preamp mode (so it just uses digital attenuation), but I just bought the Schitt Freya S.  I really couldn't believe how much improved the SQ is.  Smooth, articulate, full.  It is all there.  I started with Aho's Trombone Concerto and the sharp, shrill edge on the trombone is gone.  It sounded musical and full.  I moved on to my other challenge the Fischer Mahler 9 and it sounded expressive in a way that it didn't before.  I was also shocked how layered the sound was.  All the different parts of the orchestra were in their own space.

(https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/images/imagecache_thumbnail_product_mobile/freya%20S%20front.jpg)

It seems to me that the Schiit Freya S, (solid state), preamp is an excellent, high-value choice.  Objective reviews for the component such as at Audio Science Review (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-freya-s-preamplifier-review-2.11543/) indicate that it has very low distortion & noise.  Distortion, what little there is, is entirely 2nd & 3rd order harmonics which are the most benign variety.  Accordingly one would expect a very clean, transparent, and dynamic sound.

For a while I owned the Freya +, (tube version).  Quibbles I have with either version are the near impossibility of seeing the volume setting from across the room, and the cheesy membrane-type keys on the remote.  A balance control would be nice too.

What downstream power amp are you using with the Freya S?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on May 10, 2022, 09:02:26 AM
Yeah the remote is not the best.  They labeled the gain button by the symbol you would see in a circuit diagram.  I think they could just use English.  I also don't like that the power switch is on the back.  But other than it is great.  I really needed gain on that digital signal.

I'm using an NAD power amp.  I don't remember the model but it got a glowing review from ASR as one of the best performing options under $1k.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Rinaldo on May 16, 2022, 12:41:49 AM
Now that's what I call dedication:

One Man's Dream - Ken Fritz Documentary about the world's best stereo system (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b2IOOhJmxw)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on May 16, 2022, 06:31:46 AM
I'll have to watch it.  Seeing the thumbnail I like the use of paintings at the first reflection points and the curtain behind the speakers.  A lot of people use bass traps and panels so that their room looks like a studio instead of a living room!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on May 16, 2022, 09:04:20 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on May 16, 2022, 12:41:49 AM
Now that's what I call dedication:

One Man's Dream - Ken Fritz Documentary about the world's best stereo system (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b2IOOhJmxw)

Fun, but some component selections seem out of context in such a system.  He uses an Oppo as his CD transport.  They're great, I use three Oppos, but Oppo no longer produces audio gear, and it's comparatively low rent.  His DAC seems kind of budget oriented in that system, too.  Some other die hard vinyl fans go for exotic ladder DACs like TotalDac, or maybe the top end dCS.  His choice of sub drivers seems conservatively limited at 15" rather than some of the bigger drivers (eg, 18 inch or 21 inch from companies like B&C Speakers) with even lower fs.  But I love the fact that he went with active crossovers.  In that kind of system, one may actually be able to achieve the practical music reproduction limit of 21 bits, but of course the guy prefers analog.  I'd love to hear the system.

Whether it's the best system, or even the most obsessive, is up for debate.  Some horn aficionados go bonkers with their speakers.  One instance is below.  I can't find the pics now, but there is a guy in California who has horn drivers that extend 20-30 feet outside of his house, and one guy in Japan whose room is the bass horn.  These giant speakers can be driven by SETs, which some people swear by - and not just for headphones.  Also, in Japan, some audiophiles have taken to having their own, separate stereo-specific transformers installed by the power company.  That's dedication.


(https://www.whatsbestforum.com/ewr-porta/attachments/big-horn-speakers-1-jpg.39323/)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on May 17, 2022, 05:23:17 PM
Quote from: Rinaldo on May 16, 2022, 12:41:49 AM
Now that's what I call dedication:

One Man's Dream - Ken Fritz Documentary about the world's best stereo system (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b2IOOhJmxw)

So I really liked this.  By tackling the room first and foremost it might actually be the best sounding system even if there are some that might be more expensive.  Some things though:

As Todd pointed out digital is an afterthought.  This is clearly a vinyl guy.  His turntable probably costs on par with a house, but he is using an Oppo player and no streamer nor nad (unless I missed it).

Please don't show off a million dollar stereo by pouring a glass of bargain white wine at room temp!

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 17, 2022, 06:55:44 PM
Quote from: DavidW on May 17, 2022, 05:23:17 PM
So I really liked this.  By tackling the room first and foremost it might actually be the best sounding system even if there are some that might be more expensive.  Some things though:

As Todd pointed out digital is an afterthought.  This is clearly a vinyl guy.  His turntable probably costs on par with a house, but he is using an Oppo player and no streamer nor nad (unless I missed it).

Please don't show off a million dollar stereo by pouring a glass of bargain white wine at room temp!

I haven't seen the video, but an expensive boutique CD player is not going to perform any better than an Oppo.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 17, 2022, 10:29:14 PM
This.

A pretty box is nice. Tuning by ear? Jeez. Make proper electronics in the first place. Tuning by ear is a loudspeaker (and turntable) thing.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on June 05, 2022, 11:02:14 AM
(https://www.parts-express.com/SSP%20Applications/PartsExpress@SuiteCentric/SCA%202019.1/img/300-597_HR_0.default.jpg?resizeid=104&resizeh=600&resizew=600)

As I stream more and more music, I need to go for a cheap streamer that can use my home wi-fi to stream full res recordings.  I currently use either an Audioengine B1 that relies on Bluetooth in my main system, or I stream via an Amazon Fire in my bedroom system.  Neither is acceptable for long term use, and there's no way I'm paying for an audiophile streamer.  That's like paying hundreds of dollars for an optical cable.  This dandy Dayton Audio WBA31 looks like the solution.  If it doesn't work to expectations, I'm out only $53.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 05, 2022, 12:44:40 PM
I don't know how you found that Todd but what a bargain!  It has an app to make it easy to control, and it has digital out so your dac can do the heavy lifting. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on June 05, 2022, 12:56:32 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 05, 2022, 12:44:40 PM
I don't know how you found that Todd but what a bargain!  It has an app to make it easy to control, and it has digital out so your dac can do the heavy lifting.

I became aware of Dayton Audio when working with Jim Salk and Dennis Murphy in designing my speakers built by Salk Sound about a decade ago.  Jim uses Dayton for basic speaker components - Dayton speaker spikes are massive, aesthetically pleasing, and cheap, as are their binding post plates - and he used one of their woofer designs in one of his top of line speakers.  Every once in a while I peruse the Dayton site to see what's what.  You can put together a decent sounding set up using Dayton components for peanuts (eg, bookshelf speakers with ribbon tweeters for ~$75/pair). 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: greg on June 12, 2022, 10:51:12 AM
I just finished setting up my surround sound system for my TV, but am trying to figure out what to do with my separate stereo system for listening to music.

What I'm lost on is what I should know/how to match a CD player (w/bluetooth) to speakers like these:

Klipsch Reference R-26FA Dolby Atmos Floorstanding Speakers, Black, Pair
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083GKTW4S/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza

The CD player itself I'd like to not spend over $200 on... I preferably would get excellent standing speakers like these, but seems these are meant for receivers, and there is no matching CD player, so just confused how to match them.

edit: a little bit over $200, but considering this one:
Onkyo DXC390 6 Disc CD Changer,Black
https://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-DXC390-Disc-CD-Changer/dp/B0000EZ1KK/ref=sr_1_15_mod_primary_new?crid=NQ0UZC6MTFBF&keywords=multi%2Bcd%2Bplayer&qid=1655060772&sbo=RZvfv%2F%2FHxDF%2BO5021pAnSA%3D%3D&sprefix=multi%2Bcd%2Bplayer%2Caps%2C85&sr=8-15&th=1

seems I need a receiver like this also:
Onkyo TX-8220 2 Home Audio Channel Stereo Receiver with Bluetooth,black
https://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-8220-Channel-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B075P831VY/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2A2BGWMUCHC92&keywords=Onkyo+TX-8220+receiver&qid=1655061629&sprefix=onkyo+tx-8220+receiver%2Caps%2C213&sr=8-1

and should be able to connect to those speakers, despite being a different brand.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 12, 2022, 03:08:28 PM
Quote from: greg on June 12, 2022, 10:51:12 AM
I just finished setting up my surround sound system for my TV, but am trying to figure out what to do with my separate stereo system for listening to music.

What I'm lost on is what I should know/how to match a CD player (w/bluetooth) to speakers like these:

Klipsch Reference R-26FA Dolby Atmos Floorstanding Speakers, Black, Pair
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083GKTW4S/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza

The CD player itself I'd like to not spend over $200 on... I preferably would get excellent standing speakers like these, but seems these are meant for receivers, and there is no matching CD player, so just confused how to match them.

edit: a little bit over $200, but considering this one:
Onkyo DXC390 6 Disc CD Changer,Black
https://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-DXC390-Disc-CD-Changer/dp/B0000EZ1KK/ref=sr_1_15_mod_primary_new?crid=NQ0UZC6MTFBF&keywords=multi%2Bcd%2Bplayer&qid=1655060772&sbo=RZvfv%2F%2FHxDF%2BO5021pAnSA%3D%3D&sprefix=multi%2Bcd%2Bplayer%2Caps%2C85&sr=8-15&th=1

seems I need a receiver like this also:
Onkyo TX-8220 2 Home Audio Channel Stereo Receiver with Bluetooth,black
https://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-8220-Channel-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B075P831VY/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2A2BGWMUCHC92&keywords=Onkyo+TX-8220+receiver&qid=1655061629&sprefix=onkyo+tx-8220+receiver%2Caps%2C213&sr=8-1

and should be able to connect to those speakers, despite being a different brand.

Those speakers do not connect with bluetooth, as far as I can see. They are passive speakers that connect with wires, which is why they require a receiver or amplifier with substantial output power. You can connect your phone or other source to the receiver by bluetooth but the receiver drives the speaker by delivering electrical current.

There are speakers that connect with bluetooth, but typically not in the audiophile range. Bluetooth audio connectivity involves lossy compression, so you are always listening to compressed audio with bluetooth, even if your source is lossless (FLAC, etc).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 12, 2022, 03:53:50 PM
Dolby atmos speakers for a stereo?  Entry level Klipsch speakers can be abrasively bright.  On that limited budget I would
(a) consider bookshelves instead (I recommend Kef), unless you're in a large room you'll better far better SQ for the buck
(b) skip the cd player and buy the cheapest transport (dvd/bd/4k/cd whatever) you can find and put that money in the speakers
(c) buy the Yamaha receiver instead, save $50 and again put it on the speakers

You could probably actually do better with used or vintage in that price bracket.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: greg on June 12, 2022, 06:13:51 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 12, 2022, 03:08:28 PM
Bluetooth audio connectivity involves lossy compression, so you are always listening to compressed audio with bluetooth, even if your source is lossless (FLAC, etc).
Good point, though my digital music library is all mp3, and besides that it would just be streaming off of youtube/maybe even Spotify, etc. so if that's the only concern then it shouldn't be a big deal.
But some sort of USB connection where I can plug in my flash drive with my entire digital music library and play from there would be nice, too.



Quote from: DavidW on June 12, 2022, 03:53:50 PM
Entry level Klipsch speakers can be abrasively bright.
Would be nice if there were a way to know how they sound before buying... mostly for stuff that is all-around good for any genre of music.



Quote from: DavidW on June 12, 2022, 03:53:50 PM
(b) skip the cd player and buy the cheapest transport (dvd/bd/4k/cd whatever) you can find and put that money in the speakers
The confusing part is not knowing wtf a transport is until now, and not knowing how things can be connected.

I can consider bookshelf speakers as long as they can sit on a stand, no plans to get a shelf for them.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 13, 2022, 05:17:41 AM
Quote from: greg on June 12, 2022, 06:13:51 PM
Would be nice if there were a way to know how they sound before buying... mostly for stuff that is all-around good for any genre of music.

Reviews and measurements will help you out.  Unlike headphones, flat speakers sound flat and natural.  You usually want a flat frequency response.  Well... in your room.  When I talk about curves or graphs here, I'm talking about amplitude versus frequency, otherwise known as the frequency response curve.

A big part of it is how it sounds in your room.  You can buy a pair of bookshelves and they are small enough it would not be that difficult to return if you don't like them as they sound in your room.  But I will give you a cheat, which will help you sort it out.  And I'm assuming you're not going to treat your room in anyway.

1. If you can't move your speakers 3 feet away from the wall, the bass will be bloated.  That means that you want thin or brighter than neutral speakers to compensate.  That means when you look at a graph it is okay if the upper mids and treble are higher than the bass and lower mids.  But it would be terrible for the bass to be louder than the high frequencies.  Neutral speakers would sound overly warm and bloated.  Front facing bass ports are your friend here.  That is in the review look for "thin, bright, cold" or look at the graph and look for it to curve up when you read it left to right.

2. If you have lots of hardwood floor, glass windows, bare walls, not a lot of furniture it makes speakers overly bright.  In that case you would want darker speakers, the type that roll off the treble or with appropriate toe-in you achieve the same result.  In this case dark, warm speakers (elevated bass and reduced treble) are your friend.  If you have the case of #1 at the same time, you need to reduce the treble but not elevate the bass.  That is look in the review for the words "warm, dark, inviting" or look at the graph and look for it curve down when you read it left to right.

3. If you can position your speakers well, you have carpet or an area rug and paintings or panels or curtains in your room, not lots of hard surfaces that fails to dampen reflections... then congratulations you have a great room!  You should buy neutral speakers.  Look for the words "neutral, best, balanced" or a flat curve.

4. If you sit 2 m away or less, you need to look for good near field speakers.  If you sit 3 m away or more, you need far field.  Most reviews address the performance in both areas.

5. In small rooms bookshelves work fine, in large rooms think towers... but you can also go for bookshelves and add a subwoofer later.

So for example if your room was well furnished but you have to put the speakers up close to the wall, the Klipsch might look promising but it depends.  If you have to put the speakers close to the wall due to wife acceptance factor, yes.  If it is because your room is small then NO.  You don't put towers in a small room.

If you are in pursuit of high fidelity then you need to be open to room treatment, proper speaker placement and neutral speakers.  The intangibles like sound stage, detail, blackness etc. are strongly tied to getting the basics right.  It is just not nearly as easy to buy good speakers as it is to buy good headphones.  You have to be open to reading reviews and trial and error.  Else you could end up stuck with something that you don't like and don't use.

But that being said not everyone is going want to neurotically obsess over bass traps, acoustic panels, sitting positions etc.  If you're not a reviewer whatever.  But if you try to get speakers that have synergy with your room you could have a much better experience for the same money without becoming a neurotic audiophile.  If you buy from a store that sells audio gear they will have a good return policy and completely understand.  You don't have to stick with Amazon.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 13, 2022, 05:25:54 AM
The tldr is that you need to be open to reading reviews and auditioning speakers to find your best match and put nearly all of your budget in the speakers.  Your room and your ears will dictate what sounds good to you.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on June 13, 2022, 07:30:29 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 13, 2022, 05:25:54 AM
The tldr is that you need to be open to reading reviews and auditioning speakers to find your best match and put nearly all of your budget in the speakers.  Your room and your ears will dictate what sounds good to you.

Speakers are very high in the priority, but saying one should spend nearly all of the budget in the speakers isn't a good general guideline. It depends. Affordable speakers can have good sound these days, but if you prefer exotic speakers the price tag can be shocking. A significant amount of the budget should be allocated in the speakers. It is a case by case thing what is significant.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on June 13, 2022, 08:17:43 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 13, 2022, 05:25:54 AM
The tldr is that you need to be open to reading reviews and auditioning speakers to find your best match and put nearly all of your budget in the speakers.  Your room and your ears will dictate what sounds good to you.

The owner of the company producing the Linn Sondek TT, Ivor Tiefenbrun once said "s--t in s--t out. He has a point as no matter how good or expensive the speakers, if the front end of a system is not up to it then you are not going to turn water into wine.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on June 13, 2022, 09:05:40 AM
Quote from: Irons on June 13, 2022, 08:17:43 AM
The owner of the company producing the Linn Sondek TT, Ivor Tiefenbrun once said "s--t in s--t out. He has a point as no matter how good or expensive the speakers, if the front end of a system is not up to it then you are not going to turn water into wine.

A seller of front ends over-emphasizing the importance of front ends? How surprising!

Linn Sondek was founded 50 years ago! 10 years before CD format! Back then you had bad front ends. Now, four decades of digital audio one has to try really hard to find bad (digital) front ends. The bottlenecks of good sound today are:

1) Bad acoustics
2) Bad speakers
3) Bad speaker placement
4) Bad listening spot
5) Bad music production, mixing and mastering
6) Too low bitrate in compressed audio (e.g. 128 kbps mp3)

If you can avoid these problems, good sound quality is pretty much quaranteed.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 13, 2022, 09:49:04 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 13, 2022, 07:30:29 AM
Speakers are very high in the priority, but saying one should spend nearly all of the budget in the speakers isn't a good general guideline.

I agree, but I wasn't talking in general.  If you read ALL of the posts you'll see that Greg's budget is quite limited.  If you only have $1k to spend TOTAL, nearly all of it should go into the speakers.  There are good entry level speakers out there, but also lots of garbage, and so Greg needs to read reviews and audition speakers.

Quote from: 71 dB on June 13, 2022, 09:05:40 AM
The bottlenecks of good sound today are:

1) Bad acoustics
2) Bad speakers
3) Bad speaker placement
4) Bad listening spot
5) Bad music production, mixing and mastering
6) Too low bitrate in compressed audio (e.g. 128 kbps mp3)

If you can avoid these problems, good sound quality is pretty much quaranteed.



Totally agreed.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 13, 2022, 09:54:19 AM
Quote from: DavidW on May 09, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
I've been using my dac in preamp mode (so it just uses digital attenuation), but I just bought the Schitt Freya S.  I really couldn't believe how much improved the SQ is.  Smooth, articulate, full.  It is all there.  I started with Aho's Trombone Concerto and the sharp, shrill edge on the trombone is gone.  It sounded musical and full.  I moved on to my other challenge the Fischer Mahler 9 and it sounded expressive in a way that it didn't before.  I was also shocked how layered the sound was.  All the different parts of the orchestra were in their own space.

btw I've never regretted this purchase.  Providing some gain onto the dac's signal really opened up the music.  It sounds so good!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on June 13, 2022, 09:57:26 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 13, 2022, 09:49:04 AM
I agree, but I wasn't talking in general.  If you read ALL of the posts you'll see that Greg's budget is quite limited.  If you only have $1k to spend TOTAL, nearly all of it should go into the speakers.  There are good entry level speakers out there, but also lots of garbage, and so Greg needs to read reviews and audition speakers.

Yeah, I didn't realise the context of your post and took it generally.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 13, 2022, 06:35:02 PM
     My PSB small bookshelf speakers must be going on 25 years old. They are Canadian in nationality as well as sonic signature. By that I mean they don't really have much of a sound besides the music that's played on them. My room is small, though, and for a big room I might go for Walsh omnis. I owned Ohm Fs in the '70s, and you haven't lived until you've stood right next to one speaker while clearly hearing the other. The sweet spot is most of the room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 13, 2022, 06:51:25 PM
     I use direct injection of my lossless media files on HDDs into my "ChinOppo", which is what some wiseguy named a media player which is identical to an Oppo 203 without a disc player. It even has the same software that says Oppo.

     I'm thinking of getting the Zapitti Oppo substitute. It's pricey but what are you going to do? None of the disk players on the market can play everything through the USB like an almost real Oppo can.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on June 14, 2022, 12:05:34 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 13, 2022, 09:05:40 AM
A seller of front ends over-emphasizing the importance of front ends? How surprising!

Linn Sondek was founded 50 years ago! 10 years before CD format! Back then you had bad front ends. Now, four decades of digital audio one has to try really hard to find bad (digital) front ends. The bottlenecks of good sound today are:

1) Bad acoustics
2) Bad speakers
3) Bad speaker placement
4) Bad listening spot
5) Bad music production, mixing and mastering
6) Too low bitrate in compressed audio (e.g. 128 kbps mp3)

If you can avoid these problems, good sound quality is pretty much quaranteed.

I totally agree in this. That isn't to say other things don't matter, but room and environment (essentially your first four points) are the first four things one needs to get reight. And I will add that what is the "right" speaker dependes upon what music you like to listen to, and at what level.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 14, 2022, 04:39:45 AM
Quote from: drogulus on June 13, 2022, 06:51:25 PM
None of the disk players on the market can play everything through the USB like an almost real Oppo can.

But streamers can play just about everything.  You're just looking in the wrong place.  Audiophile cd players are usually just very simple transports.  And streamers and dacs do everything under the Sun these days.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 14, 2022, 07:37:34 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 14, 2022, 04:39:45 AM
But streamers can play just about everything.  You're just looking in the wrong place.  Audiophile cd players are usually just very simple transports.  And streamers and dacs do everything under the Sun these days.

     I use a single player for all audio/video files. I haven't found any streamer with a USB that can do that. When Oppo ceased production I did a search for a replacement. It's only recently that Zapitti came out with the Reavon players.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: greg on June 14, 2022, 06:58:42 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 13, 2022, 05:17:41 AM
Reviews and measurements will help you out.  Unlike headphones, flat speakers sound flat and natural.  You usually want a flat frequency response.  Well... in your room.  When I talk about curves or graphs here, I'm talking about amplitude versus frequency, otherwise known as the frequency response curve.

A big part of it is how it sounds in your room.  You can buy a pair of bookshelves and they are small enough it would not be that difficult to return if you don't like them as they sound in your room.  But I will give you a cheat, which will help you sort it out.  And I'm assuming you're not going to treat your room in anyway.

1. If you can't move your speakers 3 feet away from the wall, the bass will be bloated.  That means that you want thin or brighter than neutral speakers to compensate.  That means when you look at a graph it is okay if the upper mids and treble are higher than the bass and lower mids.  But it would be terrible for the bass to be louder than the high frequencies.  Neutral speakers would sound overly warm and bloated.  Front facing bass ports are your friend here.  That is in the review look for "thin, bright, cold" or look at the graph and look for it to curve up when you read it left to right.

2. If you have lots of hardwood floor, glass windows, bare walls, not a lot of furniture it makes speakers overly bright.  In that case you would want darker speakers, the type that roll off the treble or with appropriate toe-in you achieve the same result.  In this case dark, warm speakers (elevated bass and reduced treble) are your friend.  If you have the case of #1 at the same time, you need to reduce the treble but not elevate the bass.  That is look in the review for the words "warm, dark, inviting" or look at the graph and look for it curve down when you read it left to right.

3. If you can position your speakers well, you have carpet or an area rug and paintings or panels or curtains in your room, not lots of hard surfaces that fails to dampen reflections... then congratulations you have a great room!  You should buy neutral speakers.  Look for the words "neutral, best, balanced" or a flat curve.

4. If you sit 2 m away or less, you need to look for good near field speakers.  If you sit 3 m away or more, you need far field.  Most reviews address the performance in both areas.

5. In small rooms bookshelves work fine, in large rooms think towers... but you can also go for bookshelves and add a subwoofer later.

So for example if your room was well furnished but you have to put the speakers up close to the wall, the Klipsch might look promising but it depends.  If you have to put the speakers close to the wall due to wife acceptance factor, yes.  If it is because your room is small then NO.  You don't put towers in a small room.

If you are in pursuit of high fidelity then you need to be open to room treatment, proper speaker placement and neutral speakers.  The intangibles like sound stage, detail, blackness etc. are strongly tied to getting the basics right.  It is just not nearly as easy to buy good speakers as it is to buy good headphones.  You have to be open to reading reviews and trial and error.  Else you could end up stuck with something that you don't like and don't use.

But that being said not everyone is going want to neurotically obsess over bass traps, acoustic panels, sitting positions etc.  If you're not a reviewer whatever.  But if you try to get speakers that have synergy with your room you could have a much better experience for the same money without becoming a neurotic audiophile.  If you buy from a store that sells audio gear they will have a good return policy and completely understand.  You don't have to stick with Amazon.
Thanks, this is helpful. I will have to take some time to think and will update.
The room is small and although it has laminate floors, I have just ordered two rugs to cover most of the room (just some cool dragon rugs  :P).
I will not be doing treatment... in my music studio, I have all of that, created my own acoustic panels, ordered bass traps separately, good studio monitors, etc.

But the acoustic panels cover the walls, and the purpose of my room is mostly to look good, display cool stuff on the walls like anime figurines and decorative stuff, and to just sit and read while listening to music. 
So there are limits... just something that sounds decent is desirable, doesn't have to be top of the line audiophile stuff.

I could spend much more than $1k if I wanted to, but I just really don't want to spend much more than that. Maybe if I found the perfect combo or something, like $1.5k. (just blame that on the fact that I am planning to buy good guitar amps soon which will be ~$4k, that will be painful lol).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 15, 2022, 06:33:45 AM
Cool plans Greg!  You'll have to keep us updated with your plans.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 15, 2022, 11:41:49 AM
     
Quote from: greg on June 12, 2022, 10:51:12 AM
I just finished setting up my surround sound system for my TV, but am trying to figure out what to do with my separate stereo system for listening to music.

What I'm lost on is what I should know/how to match a CD player (w/bluetooth) to speakers like these:

Klipsch Reference R-26FA Dolby Atmos Floorstanding Speakers, Black, Pair
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083GKTW4S/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza

The CD player itself I'd like to not spend over $200 on... I preferably would get excellent standing speakers like these, but seems these are meant for receivers, and there is no matching CD player, so just confused how to match them.

edit: a little bit over $200, but considering this one:
Onkyo DXC390 6 Disc CD Changer,Black
https://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-DXC390-Disc-CD-Changer/dp/B0000EZ1KK/ref=sr_1_15_mod_primary_new?crid=NQ0UZC6MTFBF&keywords=multi%2Bcd%2Bplayer&qid=1655060772&sbo=RZvfv%2F%2FHxDF%2BO5021pAnSA%3D%3D&sprefix=multi%2Bcd%2Bplayer%2Caps%2C85&sr=8-15&th=1

seems I need a receiver like this also:
Onkyo TX-8220 2 Home Audio Channel Stereo Receiver with Bluetooth,black
https://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-8220-Channel-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B075P831VY/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2A2BGWMUCHC92&keywords=Onkyo+TX-8220+receiver&qid=1655061629&sprefix=onkyo+tx-8220+receiver%2Caps%2C213&sr=8-1

and should be able to connect to those speakers, despite being a different brand.

     All speakers need an amp unless they are self-powered. A receiver is an amp. So whatever components you choose they will be player>amp (receiver)>speakers.

     The key consideration is:

     Is this amp good enough to power these speakers? With sensitive speakers you need less capability from the amp. With a very powerful amp sensitivity becomes less important as power goes up. I could reference impedance, too, but if you're only going to drive a single pair of 6-8 ohm speakers any decently powered amp will work.

     The Klipsch speakers are 97db/watt/meter. With the Onkyo they will play loud and clean, though I would be concerned about the treble being a bit overmuch. I prefer a speaker with no particular character. Some people find speakers like that dull.

     That's a good price for the speakers. They're discontinued, and the replacements are well over $1K.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 17, 2022, 06:05:38 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 13, 2022, 09:05:40 AM
A seller of front ends over-emphasizing the importance of front ends? How surprising!

Linn Sondek was founded 50 years ago! 10 years before CD format! Back then you had bad front ends. Now, four decades of digital audio one has to try really hard to find bad (digital) front ends. The bottlenecks of good sound today are:

1) Bad acoustics
2) Bad speakers
3) Bad speaker placement
4) Bad listening spot
5) Bad music production, mixing and mastering
6) Too low bitrate in compressed audio (e.g. 128 kbps mp3)

If you can avoid these problems, good sound quality is pretty much quaranteed.

I basically agree with all of it.  However the famous audiophile/skeptic, the late Peter Aczel, publisher of The Audio Critic, had a list of sound quality determinants for the home system.  It's well worth a read ... "Paste This in Your Hat" (https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/critic1.htm).

Personally I think he underplay the role of amplifiers, preamps, and upstream components, but not by much.  Certainly for the person who is primarily a music lover and not particularly an audiophile, this is a great list.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on June 17, 2022, 06:39:17 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on June 17, 2022, 06:05:38 AMI basically agree with all of it.  However the famous audiophile/skeptic, the late Peter Aczel, publisher of The Audio Critic, had a list of sound quality determinants for the home system.  It's well worth a read ... "Paste This in Your Hat" (https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/critic1.htm).

Strictly speaking, the bit about how one has no control over cabling inside a speaker is not always true.  If one buys custom made speakers, which can start well under $2000/pair, then one can choose internal cabling.  One can also choose capacitors and inductors in the crossover in some cases.  That's not to say they make a difference.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 17, 2022, 07:10:52 AM
Quote from: Todd on June 17, 2022, 06:39:17 AM
Strictly speaking, the bit about how one has no control over cabling inside a speaker is not always true.  If one buys custom made speakers, which can start well under $2000/pair, then one can choose internal cabling.  One can also choose capacitors and inductors in the crossover in some cases.  That's not to say they make a difference.

This is true and I've done it myself.

My DIY speaker builds have been few but the best, and my current main speakers, are a design from Zaph Audio ZRT (Zaph Revelator Towers) (http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZRT.html).  Parts were from Madisound (https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph%7Caudio-zrt-2-way-revelator-tower-parts-only-pair/) and Parts Express (https://www.parts-express.com/Knock-Down-MDF-1.16-ft-Tower-Cabinet-300-7066).

(https://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=20428&f=dscf051428x29_-_copy.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on June 17, 2022, 07:19:19 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on June 17, 2022, 07:10:52 AMMy DIY speaker builds have been few but the best, and my current main speakers, are a design from Zaph Audio ZRT (Zaph Revelator Towers) (http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZRT.html).  Parts were from Madisound (https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph%7Caudio-zrt-2-way-revelator-tower-parts-only-pair/) and Parts Express (https://www.parts-express.com/Knock-Down-MDF-1.16-ft-Tower-Cabinet-300-7066).


I love the Zaph site.  That's where I did my driver research a decade ago to determine the main drivers I wanted in my speakers (Seas W16). 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 17, 2022, 10:02:36 AM

     I have one mp3. It's a Neil Young song that is otherwise available only on compromised media.
     

Quote from: greg on June 14, 2022, 06:58:42 PM
(just blame that on the fact that I am planning to buy good guitar amps soon which will be ~$4k, that will be painful lol).

     (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/shocked.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: greg on June 20, 2022, 06:55:21 PM
Quote from: drogulus on June 17, 2022, 10:02:36 AM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/shocked.gif)
Just metal stuff.
Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier (cabinet)= $1500
EVH 5150 amp = $1500
the new Mark Tremonti amp = $800

last time I checked, they are probably more expensive now.

(at least I finished my two pedalboards already  :P )
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on June 21, 2022, 05:12:46 AM
(https://www.parts-express.com/SSP%20Applications/PartsExpress@SuiteCentric/SCA%202019.1/img/300-597_HR_0.default.jpg?resizeid=104&resizeh=600&resizew=600)

Been using the Dayton for a few days.  It's dandy.  Physical set up takes about thirty seconds.  (My only beef with the device is its short USB power cable, but I had a 1.5 meter cable on hand, and I could have lived with the stock one.)  The Hi-Fly app is fine.  One must press two more options than Amazon Music to get it running, but then its UI is better than Amazon's.  The app also supports TuneIn, iHeartRadio, Spotify, Tidal, Napster, and Qobuz, and can add new ones.  Sonically, I cannot detect differences between it and ripped CDs.  $53 well spent.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 21, 2022, 07:50:55 AM
Awesome find Todd!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 21, 2022, 11:56:00 AM
Quote from: greg on June 20, 2022, 06:55:21 PM

EVH 5150 amp = $1500


     The 50w heads are in that range. Would it be 6L6 or EL34?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: greg on July 13, 2022, 05:53:41 AM
Quote from: drogulus on June 21, 2022, 11:56:00 AM
     The 50w heads are in that range. Would it be 6L6 or EL34?
Got the 6L6. Was discounted at Guitar Center for $1000.
The Mesa Boogie Rectifier seems really hard to find nowadays, on a waiting list actually, might be another 1-2 months.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on July 13, 2022, 06:25:42 AM
Quote from: greg on July 13, 2022, 05:53:41 AM
Got the 6L6. Was discounted at Guitar Center for $1000.
The Mesa Boogie Rectifier seems really hard to find nowadays, on a waiting list actually, might be another 1-2 months.

Alright, I'm all for guitar nerd talk...8) I'm currently playing through this Kustom amplifier, Greg:

(https://media.musiciansfriend.com/is/image/MMGS7/L58571000000000-01-2000x2000.jpg)

The Kustom KG100FX112 is a two-channel combo amp offering 100 watts of clear, classic tone perfect for a variety of musical styles. It's equipped with a single 12-in. Kustom speaker. In addition to its two channels (Rhythm and Lead), it includes onboard digital effects (reverb, delay and chorus). The KG100FX112 features a speaker out jack, allowing you to hook up an external cab. You can also jam to songs or practice silently thanks to its auxiliary in, and headphone out jacks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

And, honestly, it's one of the best amplifiers I've played through. It even gives my trusty Roland JC-40 a run for its money (and in many ways sounds even better than this amp). I'm still running a fairly large pedalboard --- the newest addition is an Electro-Harmonix Attack Decay, which I'm in love with. This is a fantastic pedal. I like effects that alter or mess with the actual attack on the guitar and this one does a great job. I also have a TC Electronic Crescendo that does a fine job of this as well, but the EHX is more versatile. But I won't be parting ways with my Boss volume pedal as I still like to manually control the volume and there's nothing like true volume swells.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: greg on July 13, 2022, 09:35:52 AM
Huh, never heard of that brand, but also not an amp expert.
Actually will look into that Attack Decay later, sounds interesting. Trying to avoid buying more pedals, unless it's something I know I'd use plenty.
How'd you find out about the amp? Did some testing at Guitat Center?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on July 14, 2022, 06:50:05 AM

     (https://www.toatpr.life/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/b0f3148e97a09716d06b0ba71a438685dfe4e599_101.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2022, 07:59:51 AM
Quote from: greg on July 13, 2022, 09:35:52 AM
Huh, never heard of that brand, but also not an amp expert.
Actually will look into that Attack Decay later, sounds interesting. Trying to avoid buying more pedals, unless it's something I know I'd use plenty.
How'd you find out about the amp? Did some testing at Guitar Center?

I can't remember where I heard about Kustom amplifiers, but this was a purchase through Musicians' Friend. I read some various reviews and watched a demo and decided to just go for it.

By the way, I don't shop at Guitar Center and haven't been in one in probably 15 years or so. I have no desire to go back.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2022, 08:00:32 AM
Quote from: drogulus on July 14, 2022, 06:50:05 AM
     (https://www.toatpr.life/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/b0f3148e97a09716d06b0ba71a438685dfe4e599_101.jpg)

Nice! I don't care much for the color, but I bet it's a smoker.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on July 14, 2022, 08:37:08 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 14, 2022, 08:00:32 AM
Nice! I don't care much for the color, but I bet it's a smoker.

     The amp dates from 1972. They were produced throughout the '70s and the brand went through several changes of ownership after. Nothing made after the '80s has any relation to the original designs.

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2022, 08:06:35 PM
Quote from: drogulus on July 14, 2022, 08:37:08 AM
     The amp dates from 1972. They were produced throughout the '70s and the brand went through several changes of ownership after. Nothing made after the '80s has any relation to the original designs.

   

Ah, very interesting. Thanks for the information. I don't know much about the company, but I love the amp I own.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: greg on September 03, 2022, 05:26:48 PM
Thought I'd update.

The advice given by DavidW was very helpful for some starter tips.

Ultimately, figured out what works the best for my situation, what I wanted, and feel pretty satisfied. My budget ended up actually being much larger for this (nearly $5k in total).

Rotel A14 MKII - amplifier
Rotel CD14 MKII - Cd player
Kef LS50 Meta - bookshelf speakers (w/stand)

Was initially going to go with Cambridge stuff, researched pretty hard into their product line, but many smaller reasons why I decided against it. Also, just a preference to get new stuff was a factor in the decision.



Oh, I also mentioned earlier about the Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier Amp- got that, too, finally. Paired with my EVH 5150 6L6 and my crazy double pedal board. And of course, the ability to finally actually play it now that I'm out of the apartment life. Sounds perfect.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on September 11, 2022, 04:52:23 AM
Quote from: greg on September 03, 2022, 05:26:48 PM

Kef LS50 Meta - bookshelf speakers (w/stand)


Nice, I'm interested in hearing good coaxial speakers, Genelec "The Ones" series are on my to hear list.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on September 16, 2022, 10:54:12 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 16, 2022, 05:21:13 AM
This is part of the Quad mythology. 

No. The Quads were invented decades before something like a Klippel or things like constant directivity research existed. I would trust a single frequency measurement at the listening position to tell me something about room nulls and a rudimentary frequency response beyond that. I would apply this to every single speaker.

Quote
Loudspeakers cannot reproduce the midrange of piano played at forte or fortissimo accurately without enormous amounts of power, and many drivers do not have the physical capacity to reproduce the piano accurately.  So we are indeed left with anecdotes.

This is also wrong. Something like a K402 waveguide at 105 db/w when used active isn't going to need "enormous amounts of power" to play fortissimo. Combined with the room gain one can get by with any reasonable amplifier that doesn't need to be an arc welder. Or just running an active box speaker system a tweeter (vs a bass driver) is not going to need enormous amounts of power either, it will need a protection circuit or you risk frying it, hence why you'd do the rational thing and just use a lower power amplifier.

Quote
Out of curiosity, were Quad ESL 57s among the speakers tested? 

They weren't, but it's easy to buy speakers that were designed around principles that Toole's research points to, which is where my current interest is, not in some product of the past.

Quote
Beyond that, the emphasis on flatter frequency response is more or less a given for good sound for many speakers, though some designers pursue other objectives.

Old fashioned thinking. There is far more to it than just flat frequency response which is an obvious one. Moreover your rather vague "flat frequency" response doesn't address how this was measured; flat in an anechoic chamber great. Flat in a listening room, no. Assuming the former this should be the absolute bare minimum for high fidelity, constant directivity should be prioritized just as much. We need the reflected sound to be timbrally similar to the direct sound.

Quote
Also, active crossovers have been used for decades, especially in studio gear, and they typically sound better than passive crossovers.  DSP may or may not represent an improvement.  That would require comparative measurements and listening. 

Agree, though the companies I know of still using active electronic crossovers with no DSP solutions, ie ATC are stuck in the past building speakers around old fashioned principles and ignoring other very important areas; hence my interest in DSP with the likes of D&D, Kii, and Genelec. Correct that DSP in itself is not the end all be all.

Quote
In other words, you don't know.

If you're not going to point out specifically what I posted that was incorrect, I'm going to assume this is further deflection from someone that just learned about Toole yesterday.

Quote from: Spotted Horses on September 16, 2022, 05:36:10 AM
The comb filtering is there, but you don't really have two point sources interfering at the listener's location. In addition to the primary sources you have multiple reflections arriving at your ear from various surfaces in the room, which will never be symmetric, so at no frequency will you have two waves out of phase producing complete cancelation.

This is basically "the room is going to mess things up anyway" which can be true, but that doesn't mean we should throw everything out. The radiation pattern at midrange and treble frequencies is going to be somewhat spherical which includes the vertical axis (obviously narrowing the higher you go) where cancellations will occur. There are measurements with ribbon super tweeters causing deep nulls/cancellations that I would hope would be audible to people, but you know I'm more likely to read about how this expensive box "opened things up" and made everything so much better.

I have some of these saved from another forum, let me see if I can find the measurements.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 16, 2022, 11:17:02 AM
Quote from: hvbias on September 16, 2022, 10:54:12 AMNo. The Quads were invented decades before something like a Klippel or things like constant directivity research existed. I would trust a single frequency measurement at the listening position to tell me something about room nulls and a rudimentary frequency response beyond that. I would apply this to every single speaker.

Yes, it is part of the mythology.  Audiophilia is filled with mythology and people who defend said mythology.


Quote from: hvbias on September 16, 2022, 10:54:12 AMThis is also wrong. Something like a K402 waveguide at 105 db/w when used active isn't going to need "enormous amounts of power" to play fortissimo.

You are correct, exotic, high sensitivity horns can produce high volumes with less power.  I always forget about those and will happily continue to do so. 


Quote from: hvbias on September 16, 2022, 10:54:12 AMFlat in a listening room, no.

I guess this represents new fashioned thinking.


Quote from: hvbias on September 16, 2022, 10:54:12 AMIf you're not going to point out specifically what I posted that was incorrect, I'm going to assume this is further deflection from someone that just learned about Toole yesterday.

It was specific to your assertion about needing elaborately expensive gear for measurements.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on September 16, 2022, 11:38:41 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 16, 2022, 11:17:02 AM
You are correct, exotic, high sensitivity horns can produce high volumes with less power.  I always forget about those and will happily continue to do so. 

It's a constant directivity waveguide designed with sound science principles, most of their owners use Crown amps. Earl Geddes (free, no book purchase needed: http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/directivity.pdf) also uses waveguides and so does nearly every high fidelity design with the tweeter to match the radiation pattern of the mid or mid/woofer at that drivers upper crossover point. Alternatively you could do something more exotic like using two different sized midrange drivers with a tweeter so there are no directivity mismatches at any of the crossovers.

High, sensitivity exotic horns is something like Goto, Avant-garde, etc that people are pairing up with SET amps.

Quote
I guess this represents new fashioned thinking.

No, flat in an anechoic chamber would basically be -2-3 db at 20 Khz in a listening room. Hence why no one would actually want flat response in a listening room. It's good to design loudspeakers that measure flat on axis in an anechoic chamber.

Quote
It was specific to your assertion about needing elaborately expensive gear for measurements.

To design high fidelity loudspeakers, yes*. To design something an owner would be content with, no.

* if one wants to carry their speakers out to a quiet field, take dozens of measurements every certain number of degrees, adjust, measure, adjust, alright you can get by with a calibrated mic and reasonably priced software. Something tells me very few people or companies do this. Likely not people or companies that mention what type of drivers they're using.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 16, 2022, 12:37:21 PM
Quote from: hvbias on September 16, 2022, 11:38:41 AMmost of their owners use Crown amps

How do you know?

I like the wordier description for a horn speaker.  It's good marketing.  Looks sciency.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on September 16, 2022, 01:24:57 PM
My venerable old McLaren 150B Amp which I've had since 1988 is now showing signs of failure so it's time to get a new integrated amp. The A150B was quite advanced for it's time, even with only 50W per side but I'm sure that modern technology has come a long way since then and virtually anything I buy will be superior in sound quality.

With that in mind and no need to fill a large room with I'm going down the budget route. I also do a lot of headphone listening via my PC so the amp will not be (in deference to my neighbours) my main system but will still get quite a bit of use. There are two choices for me:

(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-3641c/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/2357/21531/Anth_Rotel_a10_silver__43581.1537776130.png?c=2)

or

(https://www.selby.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache/8dc42fa2ff86d291f127cfbcf7f58b48/n/a/nad_c316beev2_f.jpg)

The Rotel makes sense as it doesn't have any extra bling that I would not need to use. All the money has been poured into getting the best sound and I also have a Rotel C11 CD player so synergy becomes a factor.

The NAD, at a similar price and specs is also a strong contender.

I also looked at Cambridge AXA35 , Pro-Ject S2 BT (both probably underpowered and I don't need BT as I have a wifi streamer) Marantz 6006, and Yamaha A-S301

I'm off on vacation tomorrow and will wait until I get back before pulling the pin.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 16, 2022, 01:45:03 PM
Between the Rotel and the NAD, I'd go with the NAD.  I bought a C 372 about twenty years ago, and it is still going strong for my daughter.  Ultimately, either one would be fine.  It may be best to just buy the lowest price model.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on September 16, 2022, 10:33:38 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 16, 2022, 01:45:03 PM
Between the Rotel and the NAD, I'd go with the NAD.  I bought a C 372 about twenty years ago, and it is still going strong for my daughter.  Ultimately, either one would be fine.  It may be best to just buy the lowest price model.

The NAD and the Rotel are the same price with basically the same features so deciding will be hard.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 03:55:21 AM
Quote from: Holden on September 16, 2022, 01:24:57 PM
My venerable old McLaren 150B Amp which I've had since 1988 is now showing signs of failure so it's time to get a new integrated amp. The A150B was quite advanced for it's time, even with only 50W per side but I'm sure that modern technology has come a long way since then and virtually anything I buy will be superior in sound quality.

There wasn't been much improvement in sound quality in amps. They had very good sound in 1988 so there is not much to improve.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 17, 2022, 05:05:57 AM
Quote from: Holden on September 16, 2022, 10:33:38 PM
The NAD and the Rotel are the same price with basically the same features so deciding will be hard.

I'd go with aesthetics at that point.  Which do you prefer looking at?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 17, 2022, 09:40:31 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 03:55:21 AM
There wasn't been much improvement in sound quality in amps. They had very good sound in 1988 so there is not much to improve.

On the contrary, there has been a large leap in amp quality with the advent of ultra-low distortion amps, notably class D amps from Hypex and Purifi.

FWIW, NAD has models that exploit one or the other.  For example the NAD C 399 integrated amp/streamer (https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-399-hybrid-digital-dac-amplifier/) uses Hypex nCore models while the NAD M 33 integrated amp/streamer (https://nadelectronics.com/product/m33-bluos-streaming-dac-amplifier/) uses Purifi  "Eigentakt" modules.

However neither the pictured Rotel RA-10 nor the NAD C 316BEE use these technologies, (though they are likely decent amps in their own right).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 10:07:46 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on September 17, 2022, 09:40:31 AM
On the contrary, there has been a large leap in amp quality with the advent of ultra-low distortion amps, notably class D amps from Hypex and Purifi.

FWIW, NAD has models that exploit one or the other.  For example the NAD C 399 integrated amp/streamer (https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-399-hybrid-digital-dac-amplifier/) uses Hypex nCore models while the NAD M 33 integrated amp/streamer (https://nadelectronics.com/product/m33-bluos-streaming-dac-amplifier/) uses Purifi  "Eigentakt" modules.

However neither the pictured Rotel RA-10 nor the NAD C 316BEE use these technologies, (though they are likely decent amps in their own right).

Yes, technically there has been, but audibility of those things is questionable. Once the distortion gets below the threshold of audiblity lowering it further doesn't make the sound any better for the ears. Only for analysers.

The main benefit of new digital amp modules is their capability to produce a lot of power from small units because they waste do little power. So, powerful amps can be smaller, spend less electricity and run cooler, but for human ears the sound quality is pretty much the same as a few decades ago.

The main source of distortion is speakers. The distortion of the amp is insignificant (unless we are talking about e.g. tube amps).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 18, 2022, 11:32:19 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 10:07:46 AM
Yes, technically there has been, but audibility of those things is questionable. Once the distortion gets below the threshold of audiblity lowering it further doesn't make the sound any better for the ears. Only for analysers.

The main benefit of new digital amp modules is their capability to produce a lot of power from small units because they waste do little power. So, powerful amps can be smaller, spend less electricity and run cooler, but for human ears the sound quality is pretty much the same as a few decades ago.

The main source of distortion is speakers. The distortion of the amp is insignificant (unless we are talking about e.g. tube amps).

There is still debate about what the threshold of audibility is -- I've hear -120 dB quote as the absolute threshold.  There has been even more debate how audible the different amplifiers actually are.

True, of course, that speakers produce much more distortion than typical amplifiers.  Notwithstanding, I've feel I heard differences between amplifiers.  For a number of years I used a Pass Labs X150.5;  it was certainly a pleasant sound amp.  However when I when to a Purifi 1ET400A-based amp I heard a distinct increase in transparency and dynamics.  My imagination?  Maybe but I think not.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on September 21, 2022, 03:10:08 AM
This is the frequency response of my left speaker with individual drivers plotted, measured in the listening position. Sounds right and everything you see is intended.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 21, 2022, 04:16:53 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on September 18, 2022, 11:32:19 AM
There is still debate about what the threshold of audibility is -- I've hear -120 dB quote as the absolute threshold.  There has been even more debate how audible the different amplifiers actually are.

The threshold of hearing is one thing. It means how quiet sound are audible when a person has stayed a long time in an extremely quiet place (anechoic chamber). The threshold varies a lot with frequency, but hearing is at its most sensitive at about 3.5 kHz where the threshold of hearing can go a few decibels below zero of sound pressure level. However, any louder environment such a living room raises the threshold of hearing the more the higher the sound pressure level. When listening to music for example, auditory masking happens. Lossy formats such as mp3 take advantage of this. The idea is that the music information that is thrown away isn't noticeable, because of masking. Yes, people can hear things especially at lower bitrates, but then again at 128 kbps mp3 contains barely 10 % of the original information!

There is also a lot of debate whether the Earth is flat and whether vacciness contain nanotechnology to control and track people, but that doesn't mean those issues are "unsolved" for sane people. Audio is a business and as long as there are gullible snake oil believers, there will be snake oil seller to cash in, and purposedly generating doubt about subjects such as audibility of microscopic things is an effective way to keep the money flowing in.

If amps are so easy to tell apart, how on Earth is it always to difficult to demonstrate it in proper listening tests?

Quote from: Fëanor on September 18, 2022, 11:32:19 AMTrue, of course, that speakers produce much more distortion than typical amplifiers.  Notwithstanding, I've feel I heard differences between amplifiers.  For a number of years I used a Pass Labs X150.5;  it was certainly a pleasant sound amp.  However when I when to a Purifi 1ET400A-based amp I heard a distinct increase in transparency and dynamics.  My imagination?  Maybe but I think not.

A properly designed amp generates so little distortion (when driven at power levels it can easily handle) that nobody can hear it, while speakers can easily generate audible distortion when pushed a little bit, especially at low frequencies. The system of amp + cable + speaker can have an effect* on the sound if there is mismatch. It is possible you have heard something like this, but generally it is wise to assume most of the differences you think you hear are a product of placebo and are likely to vanish in proper listening tests.

* If the speaker impedance is very low at some frequencies and the cable is long/thin, there can be audible effects with frequency response and damping. Some amps can be unable to drive certain demanding speakers properly. In these cases it is not the amp, it is the mismatch between the amp and speakers. Demanding speaker require capable amps!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on September 22, 2022, 03:38:39 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 16, 2022, 12:37:21 PM
How do you know?

I like the wordier description for a horn speaker.  It's good marketing.  Looks sciency.

This is once again wrong. These are designed for professional theater use, people just happen to use them in their home because they saw the superb directivity with them and the designer has also written about it as one of the goal's when it was being designed. As for why most people are using Crown amps it's because the electronic crossovers are set for the Crown amps via dampening down the sensitivity towards those amps' gain (since they are pro audio amps they might not be the exact 26 dB "norm") and EQ. I'm sure people are free to do what they please, but people using them tend to know audio.

This research with controlled directivity "horns" (more accurately waveguides since in the old days a horn was primarily to raise sensitivity with WW I era amps being able to put out barely a watt of power), started in the late 70s or early 80s (don't care enough to look through the patents) in pro audio use. We now know why constant directivity is desired via Toole's research but they were onto it before that.

Danley speakers are another example of these pro audio constant directivity horns, mostly used in stadium installs that people are now using in home theater setup because of the controlled directivity.

And you can even the waveguides on small speakers like JBL LSR 306: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-306p-mk-ii-review-studio-monitor.18505/

I have these in my office, given they were ~ $150 each and limited by what they could do at that price, the directivity match is not flawless at the crossover but the measurements punch above their price.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 22, 2022, 03:54:56 PM
Quote from: hvbias on September 22, 2022, 03:38:39 PMAs for why most people are using Crown amps

Again, how do you know

It is always nice to see passionate audiophile types go on about things no one cares about, like horns.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on September 22, 2022, 04:05:48 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 22, 2022, 03:54:56 PM
Again, how do you know

It is always nice to see passionate audiophile types go on about things no one cares about, like horns.

As opposed to the ignorant that speak as an authority on a subject that they possess barely any understanding of? Someone that just learned about Floyd Toole last week is not someone I'm too keen on taking seriously, doubly so someone that is so eager to arrogantly double down on misinformation.

Actually what the hell, I'll troll through some of the patents:

https://patents.justia.com/patent/4685532

Don Keele seemed to be involved in some of the work at Electro-Voice, though he has now moved on to curved CBT arrays which control more of the vertical directivity.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 22, 2022, 04:19:59 PM
Audiophilia has many shamans who inspire great devotion.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on September 23, 2022, 01:15:49 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 22, 2022, 03:54:56 PM
Again, how do you know

It is always nice to see passionate audiophile types go on about things no one cares about, like horns.

I care about horns, I have a pair (Tannoy Duel Concentric). Not perfect but what speaker is. Horns are not the most accurate but sound nice in a big room. Flea-power drives them and as hvbias has said already directionally is outstanding.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on September 23, 2022, 01:46:14 AM
I also care about horns and I would like to own a pair. However, I would have to swap my car plus a lot of other things to own the pair that I want!  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 23, 2022, 05:27:09 AM
Quote from: Irons on September 23, 2022, 01:15:49 AMNot perfect but what speaker is.

There is no such thing.  One must choose the imperfections one prefers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on September 23, 2022, 07:30:07 AM
Quote from: aligreto on September 23, 2022, 01:46:14 AM
I also care about horns and I would like to own a pair. However, I would have to swap my car plus a lot of other things to own the pair that I want!  ;D

Not just down to price, Fergus. Horns by nature are big. I had a pair of Impulse H2's worse then the pic below as mine were all black. It was like two upturned coffins in room corners. The wife hated them and they had to go.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 23, 2022, 08:26:06 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 21, 2022, 04:16:53 AM
...
A properly designed amp generates so little distortion (when driven at power levels it can easily handle) that nobody can hear it, while speakers can easily generate audible distortion when pushed a little bit, especially at low frequencies. The system of amp + cable + speaker can have an effect* on the sound if there is mismatch. It is possible you have heard something like this, but generally it is wise to assume most of the differences you think you hear are a product of placebo and are likely to vanish in proper listening tests.
...

The placebo effect is a plausible explanation for perceived differences in amplifier sound -- except when what you hear is different than what you were expecting.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 23, 2022, 09:16:23 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on September 23, 2022, 08:26:06 AM
The placebo effect is a plausible explanation for perceived differences in amplifier sound -- except when what you hear is different than what you were expecting.

How often does that happen compared to people hearing what they were expecting?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 24, 2022, 04:09:57 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2022, 09:16:23 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on September 23, 2022, 08:26:06 AM
The placebo effect is a plausible explanation for perceived differences in amplifier sound -- except when what you hear is different than what you were expecting.

How often does that happen compared to people hearing what they were expecting?

The exception disproves the rule.  To be sure, most people tend to hear what they were expecting.  But I personally have been surprised time & again as have many experience enthusiasts of my acquaintance.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 04:36:42 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on September 24, 2022, 04:09:57 AM
The exception disproves the rule. 

Oh? I guess I just lost this one. Whatever. People who think amps sound different can hunt for the right one. People like me don't have that luxury (money time need will etc.) The amp I have is the one that has ALMOST* all the properties I need and is only painfully expensive. There was one option for me. Luckily I think the sound is perfect (there is nothing that bothers me).

* I can't have digital sources to headphones via my crossfeed headphone adapther, only analog. So I have to use external DAC to feed the amp while the digital inputs are useless with headphones - a brainfart of the amp designers. Headphone output works of course put has too high impedance and lacks crossfeed functionality (useless for me)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 24, 2022, 10:04:30 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 04:36:42 AM
Oh? I guess I just lost this one. Whatever. People who think amps sound different can hunt for the right one. People like me don't have that luxury (money time need will etc.) The amp I have is the one that has ALMOST* all the properties I need and is only painfully expensive. There was one option for me. Luckily I think the sound is perfect (there is nothing that bothers me).

* I can't have digital sources to headphones via my crossfeed headphone adapter, only analog. So I have to use external DAC to feed the amp while the digital inputs are useless with headphones - a brainfart of the amp designers. Headphone output works of course put has too high impedance and lacks crossfeed functionality (useless for me)

Well I suppose the good news is that superb amplifiers no longer have to be "painfully" expensive".

Just as an example, power amps built using the Purifi class D modules are essentially SOTA while being actually cheap by classic audiophile standards.  So for example the Nord Three SE 1ET400A MKII Dual Mono stereo amp (https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/product-page/nord-three-se-1et400a-dual-mono-stereo-amp) is currently GBP 1650, (Euro 1850);  see the ASR measurements here (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/nord-three-se-1et400a-dual-mono-stereo-amp-review.9938/).

The Benchmark HPA4 preamp & headphone amp (https://benchmarkmedia.com/collections/products/products/hpa4) is SOTA and relatively cheap at USD 3000, (Euro 3090);  ASR review here (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-benchmark-hpa4-headphone-amp-pre.8141/).  The line preamp only version is USD 2450.  The Topping Pre90 is less elegant but only USD 850 (with extra inputs option);  ASR review (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-pre90-review-preamplifier.18283/).

If you need or prefer a separate headphone amp, (as I do), there are SOTA options available for cheap.  'Phone impedance is clearly a factor in your choice.  The Topping A90, (analog only), is about as good as it gets and will "drive anything" according to ASR (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-a90-headphone-amplifier-review.13592/), for USD 500.  There are great, relatively cheap DAC/headphone amp combos too such as the SMSL SP400;  ASR here (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-sp400-review-headphone-amp.19346/).

Personally I hate headphone listening and don't have a great setup, however it's big with lots of folks.  (See my current system at my signature link below.)

The spoiler is that -- to make things more complicated -- objectively superb performance isn't what everybody wants.  Lot of people prefer lots of low order, (2nd/3rd), harmonic distortion.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 24, 2022, 10:21:59 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on September 24, 2022, 10:04:30 AM
Well I suppose the good news is that superb amplifiers no longer have to be "painfully" expensive".

Just as an example, power amps built using the Purifi class D modules are essentially SOTA while being actually cheap by classic audiophile standards.  So for example the Nord Three SE 1ET400A MKII Dual Mono stereo amp (https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/product-page/nord-three-se-1et400a-dual-mono-stereo-amp) is currently GBP 1650, (Euro 1850);  see the ASR measurements here (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/nord-three-se-1et400a-dual-mono-stereo-amp-review.9938/).

The Benchmark HPA4 preamp & headphone amp (https://benchmarkmedia.com/collections/products/products/hpa4) is SOTA and relatively cheap at USD 3000, (Euro 3090);  ASR review here (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-benchmark-hpa4-headphone-amp-pre.8141/).  The line preamp only version is USD 2450.  The Topping Pre90 is less elegant but only USD 850 (with extra inputs option);  ASR review (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-pre90-review-preamplifier.18283/).

If you need or prefer a separate headphone amp, (as I do), there are SOTA options available for cheap.  'Phone impedance is clearly a factor in your choice.  The Topping A90, (analog only), is about as good as it gets and will "drive anything" according to ASR (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-a90-headphone-amplifier-review.13592/), for USD 500.  There are great, relatively cheap DAC/headphone amp combos too such as the SMSL SP400;  ASR here (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-sp400-review-headphone-amp.19346/).

Personally I hate headphone listening and don't have a great setup, however it's big with lots of folks.  (See my current system at my signature link below.)

The spoiler is that -- to make things more complicated -- objectively superb performance isn't what everybody wants.  Lot of people prefer lots of low order, (2nd/3rd), harmonic distortion.
One of the things that can be frustrating for folks who own certain systems/setups is that if your equipment really shows what's there in terms of how things were recorded, you can hear the good, the bad, and the ugly.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on September 24, 2022, 11:32:50 AM
I showed the frequency response of my setup previously. Opinion: Get that right and recording imperfections become less of a nuisance.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 01:05:52 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on September 24, 2022, 10:04:30 AM
Well I suppose the good news is that superb amplifiers no longer have to be "painfully" expensive".

Just as an example, power amps built using the Purifi class D modules are essentially SOTA while being actually cheap by classic audiophile standards.  So for example the Nord Three SE 1ET400A MKII Dual Mono stereo amp (https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/product-page/nord-three-se-1et400a-dual-mono-stereo-amp) is currently GBP 1650, (Euro 1850);  see the ASR measurements here (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/nord-three-se-1et400a-dual-mono-stereo-amp-review.9938/).

The Benchmark HPA4 preamp & headphone amp (https://benchmarkmedia.com/collections/products/products/hpa4) is SOTA and relatively cheap at USD 3000, (Euro 3090);  ASR review here (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-benchmark-hpa4-headphone-amp-pre.8141/).  The line preamp only version is USD 2450.  The Topping Pre90 is less elegant but only USD 850 (with extra inputs option);  ASR review (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-pre90-review-preamplifier.18283/).

If you need or prefer a separate headphone amp, (as I do), there are SOTA options available for cheap.  'Phone impedance is clearly a factor in your choice.  The Topping A90, (analog only), is about as good as it gets and will "drive anything" according to ASR (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-a90-headphone-amplifier-review.13592/), for USD 500.  There are great, relatively cheap DAC/headphone amp combos too such as the SMSL SP400;  ASR here (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-sp400-review-headphone-amp.19346/).

Personally I hate headphone listening and don't have a great setup, however it's big with lots of folks.  (See my current system at my signature link below.)

The spoiler is that -- to make things more complicated -- objectively superb performance isn't what everybody wants.  Lot of people prefer lots of low order, (2nd/3rd), harmonic distortion.

I have a 5-channel speaker system, so stereo amps won't do. Also, what is affordable to you may not be affordable to others. Maybe you earn $10.000 a month? Most people don't. I have been unemployed for 6 years. In my opinion 3000 dollars for a stereo amp is insane, but that's me.

People are so different that recommendings things to other people doesn't work. Our realities are so different.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 01:09:17 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 24, 2022, 10:21:59 AM
One of the things that can be frustrating for folks who own certain systems/setups is that if your equipment really shows what's there in terms of how things were recorded, you can hear the good, the bad, and the ugly.

PD

Nowadays a relatively cheap systems can be so transparent that it reveals everything. No need for expensive gear.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on September 24, 2022, 01:31:06 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 01:09:17 PM
Nowadays a relatively cheap systems can be so transparent that it reveals everything. No need for expensive gear.

I am sorry Poju, but I have to disagree strongly, my life long listening experience made one thing clear, expensive gear reveals much more as a average set up.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 24, 2022, 01:31:53 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 01:05:52 PM
I have a 5-channel speaker system, so stereo amps won't do. Also, what is affordable to you may not be affordable to others. Maybe you earn $10.000 a month? Most people don't. I have been unemployed for 6 years. In my opinion 3000 dollars for a stereo amp is insane, but that's me.

People are so different that recommendings things to other people doesn't work. Our realities are so different.

Yes, all fair and no dispute.  Come to that, I've been retired for 12 years on essentially a fixed income

I was simply pointing out components that were SOTA beyond reasonable without being spectacularly expensive.  Looking for the latter?  Hey, no problem.  How about a pair of Pass Labs XS300 monoblocks?  US$85,000, (each of the pair pair weighs 60 kilos).  Yes and people do buy these things.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-L0m6VK0Xx8Q/VG0CErd6uyI/AAAAAAAADzc/fgveOSzQWhw/s1600/Xs150_cool.jpg)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 24, 2022, 01:34:42 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 24, 2022, 10:21:59 AM
One of the things that can be frustrating for folks who own certain systems/setups is that if your equipment really shows what's there in terms of how things were recorded, you can hear the good, the bad, and the ugly.

PD

Agreed.  The most transparent systems cut no slack for less than great recordings.  What was recorded is what you get.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 01:59:41 PM
Quote from: Harry on September 24, 2022, 01:31:06 PM
I am sorry Poju, but I have to disagree strongly, my life long listening experience made one thing clear, expensive gear reveals much more as a average set up.

Well, speakers and headphones to some extent*, but "the other stuff" is very transparent even at lower price these days thanks to digital technology.

That is a good thing. Otherwise good sound would only be available for the rich.

* $1000 headphones probably have better sound that $100 headphones, but the correlation is not 100 %. Sometimes cheaper product is better.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 24, 2022, 02:22:21 PM
Equating price with sound quality is pure audiophile nonsense.  There are some ridiculously expensive pieces of (all types of) gear that sound mediocre, bad, or awful.  Speakers are the worst in this regard.  To be fair, there are also some ridiculously expensive pieces of gear that sound great, but price does not always equate to quality. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on September 24, 2022, 02:32:15 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2022, 02:22:21 PM
Equating price with sound quality is pure audiophile nonsense.  There are some ridiculously expensive pieces of (all types of) gear that sound mediocre, bad, or awful.  Speakers are the worst in this regard.  To be fair, there are also some ridiculously expensive pieces of gear that sound great, but price does not always equate to quality.

As usually your words are empty rhetoric.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 24, 2022, 02:36:38 PM
Quote from: Harry on September 24, 2022, 02:32:15 PM
As usually your words are empty rhetoric.

Incorrect.  My statement is based on a quarter century of listening to high end gear, including some speakers that cost as much as cars but sound awful.  Only an audiophile can equate price with sound quality with what amounts to religious devotion.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 24, 2022, 02:49:30 PM
Here it is folks, the best amplifier, the Pivetta Opera Only:

(https://amthanhso.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/opera_only_fahx.jpg)

$2.2 million.  It must be the best because it is the most expensive. 

If tubes are your thing, then this must be the very best, the Ultrasound Otello:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hB7pqGdOSbA/Uy659-qPR3I/AAAAAAAAW5I/PhHOPWp72DU/s1600/otello.jpg)

A mere $650,000.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 24, 2022, 02:53:27 PM
And if you want the best speakers, only the Hart Audio D&W Aural Pleasure will do:

(https://www.soundandvision.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/1212hart.promo_.jpg)

$5 million.  They are made out of 24 karat gold, you see.  I'm not up on the latest audiophile mythologies, so I am not completely certain what audible benefits gold imparts, but it must be substantial. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 03:14:17 PM
While Todd is in my ignore list, I checked his post in this thread and I have to say his posts are ON POINT here.  0:)

Speakers made of gold must be optimal for golden ears!  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on September 26, 2022, 06:30:56 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 03:14:17 PM
While Todd is in my ignore list, I checked his post in this thread and I have to say his posts are ON POINT here.  0:)

Speakers made of gold must be optimal for golden ears!  ;D

;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 26, 2022, 08:41:36 AM
Quote from: Irons on September 23, 2022, 07:30:07 AM
Not just down to price, Fergus. Horns by nature are big. I had a pair of Impulse H2's worse then the pic below as mine were all black. It was like two upturned coffins in room corners. The wife hated them and they had to go.
Oh, drat!

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 26, 2022, 08:43:28 AM
 
Quote from: Irons on September 26, 2022, 06:30:56 AM
;D
:laugh:

Personally, I don't like the looks of them.  :-X

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on September 26, 2022, 01:18:13 PM
Quote from: greg on September 03, 2022, 05:26:48 PM
Thought I'd update.

The advice given by DavidW was very helpful for some starter tips.

Ultimately, figured out what works the best for my situation, what I wanted, and feel pretty satisfied. My budget ended up actually being much larger for this (nearly $5k in total).

Rotel A14 MKII - amplifier
Rotel CD14 MKII - Cd player
Kef LS50 Meta - bookshelf speakers (w/stand)


Nice!!  Too bad I can't drop in and here the magnificent system! 8)  Sorry took me so long to see this post... I had been busy.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on September 26, 2022, 10:06:37 PM
The pictures Todd posted are examples of stupid home audio.

I like that we see more active speakers being offered. Even better active speakers with DSP-controlled crossovers, and eve better thn that active speakers where the DSP also does room integration below the Schroeder frequency. There are some that do full range which very often makes the speakers sound worse.
What I don't like is that most speakers are box speakers, just in different sizes. Box speakers radiate like box speakers and thus sound like that.

My own rather cynical hifi system is presented and also discussed somewhat over at Audiokarma (https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/kjetils-audio.990898/). It's Designed for Bach cantatas. Kraftwerk capable.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on September 27, 2022, 04:02:21 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 03:14:17 PM
While Todd is in my ignore list, I checked his post in this thread and I have to say his posts are ON POINT here.  0:)

Speakers made of gold must be optimal for golden ears!  ;D

Those gold speakers, the Pivetta Opera amp, etc., are the sort of equipment sought not so much by audiophiles as by ostentations bling seekers.  There is a lot of ridiculously expensive stuff, (and I'm not talking only of audio), that is sold on that basis.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 27, 2022, 04:38:59 AM
Quote from: Valentino on September 26, 2022, 10:06:37 PMThe pictures Todd posted are examples of stupid home audio.

They are the most extreme examples of audiophile silliness.  There are some long-standing, well-known "prestige" brands that trade in the same thing.  Wilson, Avalon, Magico, Goldmund, MBL, Krell/Dan D'Agostino are all examples.  All offer gear in the high five and six figure per component range, some exclusively.  All use the same type of idiotic, garbled, pseudo-scientific drivel in their advertising and interviews.  The companies that build gargantuan speakers that measure poorly explain away engineering incompetence using statements that measurements don't tell the whole story.  The ridiculously expensive amplifiers may put out a lot of power - Krell was most famous for that - but they either sound the same or worse as much less spendy gear.  I know. I've heard most of the brands listed.  (Not Magico, because why?  Not Goldmund because they are so exclusive that they can only be sold at Very Special Stores and can only be heard with an appointment.  The hoi polloi needn't bother.)  There are many other brands that do the same thing.  Sometimes, a company will deliver a knockout, stupidly expensive product with knockout measurements that sound great.  Dynaudio is a great example of that. 

These companies manufacture elite Giffen goods meant for conspicuous consumption.  Certain Gilded Age behaviors did not and will not fade away. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on September 29, 2022, 11:40:30 AM
I had been using a Marantz SACD player with digital inputs as a DAC, but although the analog circuitry sounds very nice the digital interface is extremely clunky. It is subject to dropouts when connected by USB, and I had to resort to a Toslink input via another interface gadget. Recently it developed the habit of not recognizing a signal until a second or so has passed, clipping the initial instant of the music.

I'm ditching it in favor of a little gadget from Schitt, the Modi.

(https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/images/modi%203%20black%201920%20front.jpg)

I already have a headphone amp I am happy with so I only need a DAC.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 29, 2022, 12:21:15 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on September 29, 2022, 11:40:30 AM
I'm ditching it in favor of a little gadget from Schitt, the Modi.

(https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/images/modi%203%20black%201920%20front.jpg)

I already have a headphone amp I am happy with so I only need a DAC.

A great little unit.  You can't go wrong for $129.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on September 29, 2022, 01:51:50 PM
Quote from: Todd on September 29, 2022, 12:21:15 PM
A great little unit.  You can't go wrong for $129.

I have the Modi 3+ and can vouch that it's a great little unit and shows that you can buy a good DAC for a relatively low price. I have mine paired with the Schiit Asgard 3
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on September 29, 2022, 03:47:52 PM
Quote from: Valentino on September 26, 2022, 10:06:37 PM
My own rather cynical hifi system is presented and also discussed somewhat over at Audiokarma (https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/kjetils-audio.990898/). It's Designed for Bach cantatas. Kraftwerk capable.

Ah a near field experience.  Ultra detailed! 

I like the rocking chair too.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on September 29, 2022, 11:25:52 PM
But still enveloping. :)
Lots of diffuse return with good frequency response from the room. This doesn't sound monitor.
The rocking chair is better looking  than it's comfortable. Very easy to move around though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on September 30, 2022, 07:29:31 AM
Quote from: Holden on September 29, 2022, 01:51:50 PM
I have the Modi 3+ and can vouch that it's a great little unit and shows that you can buy a good DAC for a relatively low price. I have mine paired with the Schiit Asgard 3

Quite so. As a stopgap I've been using a Fiio Taishan which I had on hand and which cost me all of $20. It sounds just fine.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51iUHRGzBcL._AC_SL1000_.jpg)

I don't want to use it as a permanent solution because it only has toslink input (optical or coax) and can't be connected directly to a computer. I have to use a gadget (A Musical Fidelity V-Link) to translate USB data from my computer to optical connection to the DAC. I don't want superfluous boxes and wires on my desk.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on October 01, 2022, 09:29:01 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 22, 2022, 04:19:59 PM
Audiophilia has many shamans who inspire great devotion.

Once again, wrong. Keele is no shaman, he is an engineer that designs things based around objectively good science: http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/papers.htm

Since I doubt anyone that just learned of Floyd Toole a week ago possesses an AES membership:

QuoteA member and fellow ("for contributions to the design and testing of low-frequency loudspeakers") of the Audio Engineering Society, Mr. Keele has presented and published over thirty-five technical papers on loudspeaker design and measurement methods and other related topics, among them the paper for which he won the AES Publication Award, "Low-Frequency Loudspeaker Assessment by Nearfield Sound-Pressure Measurement" (J. Audio Eng. Soc., vol. 22, p. 154 (1974 Apr.). He is a frequent speaker at AES section meetings and workshops, has chaired several AES technical paper sessions, and has been a member of several AES committees including being on the AES review board. Mr. Keele is a past member of the AES Board of Governors and is past Vice President, Central Region USA/Canada of the AES.

I usually leave idiots well alone, but it's enjoyable tearing down arrogantly wrong idiots that loudly repeatedly post misinformation 8) I won't be one of the ones on GMG that just leave you to live in your fantasies.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 01, 2022, 09:32:41 AM
Quote from: hvbias on October 01, 2022, 09:29:01 AM
Once again, wrong. Keele is no shaman, he is an engineer that designs things based around objectively good science: http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/papers.htm

Since I doubt anyone that just learned of Floyd Toole a week ago possesses an AES membership:

I usually leave idiots well alone, but it's enjoyable tearing down arrogantly wrong idiots that loudly repeatedly post misinformation 8) I won't be one of the ones on GMG that just leave you to live in your fantasies.

I heartily agree with you on this one, but he will never change his views, so it best to totally ignore him, that way he doesn't get food to live on and he dies a silent dead.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on October 01, 2022, 09:45:40 AM
Quote from: hvbias on October 01, 2022, 09:29:01 AMI usually leave idiots well alone, but it's enjoyable tearing down arrogantly wrong idiots that loudly repeatedly post misinformation 8) I won't be one of the ones on GMG that just leave you to live in your fantasies.

I look forward to more of your true believer posts. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on October 01, 2022, 09:46:10 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 24, 2022, 02:36:38 PM
Incorrect.  My statement is based on a quarter century of listening to high end gear, including some speakers that cost as much as cars but sound awful.  Only an audiophile can equate price with sound quality with what amounts to religious devotion.

The great irony in this statement is it feels like my posts back and forth with you feel like you're the religious person  :laugh:

"I ain't puttin' no gene therapy vaccine in my body"

That statement conveys not only stupidity but dangerous stupidity because said person has some grasp of what mRNA is (or at the least heard it from his mega church pastor); equivalent to your rudimentary understanding of audio.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on October 01, 2022, 10:36:56 AM
Quote from: hvbias on October 01, 2022, 09:46:10 AM
The great irony in this statement is it feels like my posts back and forth with you feel like you're the religious person  :laugh:

"I ain't puttin' no gene therapy vaccine in my body"

That statement conveys not only stupidity but dangerous stupidity because said person has some grasp of what mRNA is (or at the least heard it from his mega church pastor); equivalent to your rudimentary understanding of audio.

You do not disappoint.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on October 01, 2022, 10:41:36 AM
Quote from: Valentino on September 26, 2022, 10:06:37 PM


I like that we see more active speakers being offered. Even better active speakers with DSP-controlled crossovers, and eve better thn that active speakers where the DSP also does room integration below the Schroeder frequency. There are some that do full range which very often makes the speakers sound worse.
What I don't like is that most speakers are box speakers, just in different sizes. Box speakers radiate like box speakers and thus sound like that.


Lots of good information in this post, however box speakers don't have to radiate like box speakers, B&O Beolab 90 can do directivity that matches Toole's findings in his blind tests or flip a switch to make them full blown omni. As for Schroeder, cardioid bass (Genelec, Kii, D&D) solve some of those issues and in a box design, omni would fare worse in exciting room modes.

The best sounding speakers I've heard essentially had directivity index identical to Toole's findings.

(https://i.imgur.com/cWrRNFu.png)

Quote from: Harry on October 01, 2022, 09:32:41 AM
I heartily agree with you on this one, but he will never change his views, so it best to totally ignore him, that way he doesn't get food to live on and he dies a silent dead.

I'm entirely unsurpassed he hasn't actually engaged on anything objective that was posted opting instead to dodge the numerous times I've shut his misinformation down. He may continue to hide behind his one dimensional snark.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 02, 2022, 07:50:30 AM
BTW this is why most posters don't share their gear.  This thread is 10% fun sharing our setups, 90% crazed audiophiles shouting at each other and name calling for no reason.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 02, 2022, 08:04:43 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 02, 2022, 07:50:30 AM
BTW this is why most posters don't share their gear.  This thread is 10% fun sharing our setups, 90% crazed audiophiles shouting at each other and name calling for no reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVQiUFshjc8
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on October 02, 2022, 04:39:58 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 02, 2022, 07:50:30 AM
BTW this is why most posters don't share their gear.  This thread is 10% fun sharing our setups, 90% crazed audiophiles shouting at each other and name calling for no reason.

     You don't even need a degree from a diploma mill. Did you know I have a doctorate in Bogology?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 03, 2022, 04:19:28 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on September 29, 2022, 11:40:30 AM
I had been using a Marantz SACD player with digital inputs as a DAC, but although the analog circuitry sounds very nice the digital interface is extremely clunky. It is subject to dropouts when connected by USB, and I had to resort to a Toslink input via another interface gadget. Recently it developed the habit of not recognizing a signal until a second or so has passed, clipping the initial instant of the music.

I'm ditching it in favor of a little gadget from Schitt, the Modi.

(https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/images/modi%203%20black%201920%20front.jpg)

I already have a headphone amp I am happy with so I only need a DAC.

It's arrived and hooked up. Preliminary assessment, it sounds great with my "HeadRoom Little" headphone amp (and old headphone with crossfeed).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 20, 2022, 03:24:39 AM
I have it on loan and it definitively an option for me.
The Esoteric Grandioso
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on October 20, 2022, 03:30:02 AM
Veblen was right. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on October 20, 2022, 04:37:01 AM
Quote from: Todd on October 20, 2022, 03:30:02 AM
Veblen was right.

When it comes to audiophilian indulgence, Veblen was nowhere more right.

Digital files ripped from CD played from a NAS via a computer, even a Raspberry Pi, and decoded by a substantially under US$1k DAC will give you essentially perfect playback of a recording.  (Mind you, essentially perfect playback doesn't cut any slack for 2nd rate recordings.)

That said, (and not to refute my above assertion in any degree), I do fancy a good SACD player for my stereo system.  Good SACD players are very scant today except in the high-end category. The Esoteric Grandioso P1X is pretty much the high end of the high-end, and it is only a transport, not a full player.  One might match it with the D1X DAC:  total investment US$100,000 -- not for the hoi polloi masses.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 20, 2022, 04:45:19 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on October 20, 2022, 04:37:01 AM
When it comes to audiophilian indulgence, Veblen was nowhere more right.

Digital files ripped from CD played from a NAS via a computer, even a Raspberry Pi, and decoded by a substantially under US$1k DAC will give you essentially perfect playback of a recording.  (Mind you, essentially perfect playback doesn't cut any slack for 2nd rate recordings.)

That said, (and not to refute my above assertion in any degree), I do fancy a good SACD player for my stereo system.  Good SACD players are very scant today except in the high-end category. The Esoteric Grandioso P1X is pretty much the high end of the high-end, and it is only a transport, not a full player.

I can confirm that, the sheer detail depth and precision is a marvel to behold. I will certainly acquire this player. It will be also my last acquisition in Hi res equipment. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on October 20, 2022, 04:48:47 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on October 20, 2022, 04:37:01 AMThe Esoteric Grandioso P1X is pretty much the high end of the high-end, and it is only a transport, not a full player.

Pfft.  There's always Goldmund.

The benefits supposedly imparted by high end transports are as spurious as the benefits once promised by Mpingo discs. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on October 20, 2022, 04:51:08 AM
Quote from: Harry on October 20, 2022, 04:45:19 AM
I can confirm that, the sheer detail depth and precision is a marvel to behold. I will certainly acquire this player. It will be also my last acquisition in Hi res equipment. :)

Famous last words: "My last acquisition in hi res equipment":  we'll see.

I'm sure the Esoteric Grandioso gear is marvelous but then it ought to be.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 20, 2022, 07:41:47 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on October 20, 2022, 04:51:08 AM
Famous last words: "My last acquisition in hi res equipment":  we'll see.

I'm sure the Esoteric Grandioso gear is marvelous but then it ought to be.

Boy, I can't imagine convincing the wife to invest in the Esoteric gear - $50K for the equipment under question I believe?  We could use a new car instead - looking at my den stereo (old EV speakers), I think the total cost was about $1200 USD - NOW, since 1984 the amount of money I've put into CDs and optical media likely exceeds $50K -  :laugh:  Dave
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 20, 2022, 07:44:05 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 20, 2022, 07:41:47 AM
Boy, I can't imagine convincing the wife to invest in the Esoteric gear - $50K for the equipment under question I believe?  We could use a new car instead - looking at my den stereo (old EV speakers), I think the total cost was about $1200 USD - NOW, since 1984 the amount of money I've put into CDs and optical media likely exceeds $50K -  :laugh:  Dave

I say its worth it, and I rather have this as a new car, which is also new by the way. the set is now playing in my listening room, and boy its sounds the works.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 20, 2022, 07:46:31 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on October 20, 2022, 04:51:08 AM
Famous last words: "My last acquisition in hi res equipment":  we'll see.

I'm sure the Esoteric Grandioso gear is marvelous but then it ought to be.

Well I am getting into age, and since this is build to last, I think its my last investment. And my wife is convinced too. :laugh:
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 20, 2022, 08:03:48 AM
Quote from: Harry on October 20, 2022, 07:46:31 AM
Well I am getting into age, and since this is build to last, I think its my last investment. And my wife is convinced too. :laugh:

1+ Harry - boys and their toys -  :laugh:  Dave
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 20, 2022, 08:23:12 AM
Quote from: Harry on October 20, 2022, 07:46:31 AM
Well I am getting into age, and since this is build to last, I think its my last investment. And my wife is convinced too. :laugh:
That it's your last investment and/or that she also loves it?  :)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 20, 2022, 08:03:48 AM
1+ Harry - boys and their toys -  :laugh:  Dave
Boys aren't the only ones who like their "toys".  ;D

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 20, 2022, 09:02:21 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 20, 2022, 08:23:12 AM
That it's your last investment and/or that she also loves it?  :)
Boys aren't the only ones who like their "toys".  ;D

PD

Both :laugh:
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on October 20, 2022, 09:21:12 AM
Quote from: Harry on October 20, 2022, 07:46:31 AM
Well I am getting into age, and since this is build to last, I think its my last investment. And my wife is convinced too. :laugh:

Well if the good lady is convinced, who are we to doubt? ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 20, 2022, 10:58:52 AM
Quote from: Harry on October 20, 2022, 09:02:21 AM
Both :laugh:
Cool!  Then no quarrels about it or the price hopefully?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on October 20, 2022, 01:58:45 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 03, 2022, 04:19:28 AM
It's arrived and hooked up. Preliminary assessment, it sounds great with my "HeadRoom Little" headphone amp (and old headphone with crossfeed).

I have the Modi 3+ and can confirm that it is a great DAC - especially for the price. I recently had a loan of the latest Bifrost DAC from Schiit and I could not hear much difference - certainly not from a price point of view. To put it into perspective, my Modi is paired with an Asgard 3 and I run HD650, HD580 and up until a month ago the Audeze LCD1. The LCD1s developed headband cracking issues and I sent it back under warranty. I decided to upgrade rather than replace it with another so the HiFiman Ananda Stealth is already in transit and I should have it within the next few days.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 22, 2022, 09:49:51 PM
Got these recently based on Amir's review at ASR

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51whiQxOmuL._AC_SX679_.jpg)

TRUTHEAR x Crinacle Zero in-ear monitors.  $50 at Amazon.

A great tool if you want to hear what's on a recording without input from the room.  They are a bit uncomfortable, though, and they suggest only using them 1 hour at a time.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on October 23, 2022, 07:09:27 AM
Quote from: Daverz on October 22, 2022, 09:49:51 PM
Got these recently based on Amir's review at ASR

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51whiQxOmuL._AC_SX679_.jpg)

TRUTHEAR x Crinacle Zero in-ear monitors.  $50 at Amazon.

A great tool if you want to hear what's on a recording without input from the room.  They are a bit uncomfortable, though, and they suggest only using them 1 hour at a time.

Just looked up the review on ASR, a near match to Harman's target curve. I have been meaning to do more reading on Olive's research. I have lost nearly all enthusiasm for headphones when we bought our first house, I just found classical music highly unsatisfying on them.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 23, 2022, 11:31:03 AM
Quote from: hvbias on October 23, 2022, 07:09:27 AM
Just looked up the review on ASR, a near match to Harman's target curve. I have been meaning to do more reading on Olive's research. I have lost nearly all enthusiasm for headphones when we bought our first house, I just found classical music highly unsatisfying on them.
Just trying to understand what you are dealing with.  Why do you need to use headphones?  Is it because you don't want to awaken your partner?  Or, when you do want to listen, are the rooms too close together and/or not good re sound-proofing?  Or are you wearing them in order to be able to go between rooms whilst listening?  Just curious.

Best,

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on November 01, 2022, 03:14:18 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 23, 2022, 11:31:03 AM
Just trying to understand what you are dealing with.  Why do you need to use headphones?  Is it because you don't want to awaken your partner?  Or, when you do want to listen, are the rooms too close together and/or not good re sound-proofing?  Or are you wearing them in order to be able to go between rooms whilst listening?  Just curious.

Best,

PD

I was able to get speakers in several rooms in different locations, that is what killed my enthusiasm for them. After living in apartments for ~10 years with only headphones I was thrilled to be able to listen to speakers. For me headphones do not sound convincing in any aspect of reproduction. I see people write about being able to hear or "see" the sound in front of them, and my imagination is not that vivid. I continue to use Etymotic ER4p from 2003 that refuse to die no matter how much I've beat them up that I use when working out (even with music at very low volumes it can drown out the water of the rowing machine), traveling, on the boat, etc.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 02, 2022, 05:54:34 AM
Quote from: hvbias on November 01, 2022, 03:14:18 PM
I was able to get speakers in several rooms in different locations, that is what killed my enthusiasm for them. After living in apartments for ~10 years with only headphones I was thrilled to be able to listen to speakers. For me headphones do not sound convincing in any aspect of reproduction. I see people write about being able to hear or "see" the sound in front of them, and my imagination is not that vivid. I continue to use Etymotic ER4p from 2003 that refuse to die no matter how much I've beat them up that I use when working out (even with music at very low volumes it can drown out the water of the rowing machine), traveling, on the boat, etc.
Good to hear that they have held up so well!  Wish that all manufactured things were as reliable.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on November 02, 2022, 08:42:07 AM
Quote from: hvbias on November 01, 2022, 03:14:18 PM
For me headphones do not sound convincing in any aspect of reproduction. I see people write about being able to hear or "see" the sound in front of them, and my imagination is not that vivid.

The main problem is that most music produced mainly for speakers and not for headphones. Speakers need stereo sound (stereo speakers) or multichannel sound (surround speaker system) while headphones "need" binaural sound witch is similar to stereo sound, but in certain ways also quite different. This discrepancy alone makes headphones sound flat and even annoying compared to speaker sound. There are solutions to make headphone sound better by transforming stereo sound into more binaural type of sound. The simplest method is crossfeed which is what I use, but there are much more sophisticated/complex/expensive ways to have a more pleasant headphone sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: staxomega on November 03, 2022, 05:44:02 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 02, 2022, 08:42:07 AM
The main problem is that most music produced mainly for speakers and not for headphones. Speakers need stereo sound (stereo speakers) or multichannel sound (surround speaker system) while headphones "need" binaural sound witch is similar to stereo sound, but in certain ways also quite different. This discrepancy alone makes headphones sound flat and even annoying compared to speaker sound. There are solutions to make headphone sound better by transforming stereo sound into more binaural type of sound. The simplest method is crossfeed which is what I use, but there are much more sophisticated/complex/expensive ways to have a more pleasant headphone sound.

I have some binaural recordings and these can sound pretty scary good and more like real stereo. An online friend is a recording engineer and made his own dummy head and has recordings where he takes it out to a SoCal beach and puts it in various places, it sounds like you're there. There is however one issue with them, in order to get exact fidelity from these recordings your ear canal must be a similar shape as the dummy head that was being used.

The ones with music is pretty much just audiophile music, nothing you'd actually want to listen to. And aside from maybe one or two recordings they don't really capture the effect of true binaural for me at least. This is my favorite headphone album in terms of music (also one of my favorite albums of the 2000s) and having some great effects. I don't know if they used QSound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QSound) that was most famously used on a Roger Waters album.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81GLJxSWKSL._SL1428_.jpg)

It has been a long time since I have messed around with crossfeed. On the Headroom amps I seem to recall it basically made the sound more mono-like. I'm sure there is more nuance to it than that but my experiments with hardware and DSP crossfeed was short lived. There is a lot of info that has come out from the Olive camp since I left headphones that I need to catch up on.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: foxandpeng on November 03, 2022, 06:52:50 AM
I do enjoy reading these posts, having in the past been a real fan of 'the right sound' for me. With the advent of digital, and the approach of poorer hearing, I have revised the ways in which I consume music, moving from physical media and carefully placed speakers all over the house, to listening on a decent pair of headphones costing around £400 and various HDs played through Sonos at a bit rate of 320, or using the highest Spotify bit-rate via my smartphone. I have no doubt that the young or the less aurally challenged would notice a difference, but I don't really miss the lossless sound or absence of hardware.

Oh, how time marches with all of its consequences. As I say, I do still enjoy reading this thread.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on November 03, 2022, 06:58:36 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on November 03, 2022, 06:52:50 AM
I do enjoy reading these posts, having in the past been a real fan of 'the right sound' for me. With the advent of digital, and the approach of poorer hearing, I have revised the ways in which I consume music, moving from physical media and carefully placed speakers all over the house, to listening on a decent pair of headphones costing around £400 and various HDs played through Sonos at a bit rate of 320, or using the highest Spotify bit-rate via my smartphone. I have no doubt that the young or the less aurally challenged would notice a difference, but I don't really miss the lossless sound or absence of hardware.

Oh, how time marches with all of its consequences. As I say, I do still enjoy reading this thread.

This time will come for me also no doubt :) And I will go the same road as you my friend, even though I bought a new CD player last week, costing me a round 50.000 euro's ??? :o :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: foxandpeng on November 03, 2022, 07:07:52 AM
Quote from: Harry on November 03, 2022, 06:58:36 AM
This time will come for me also no doubt :) And I will go the same road as you my friend, even though I bought a new CD player last week, costing me a round 50.000 euro's ??? :o :o :o :o :o

I am crying on your behalf. I feel the throb in my pockets, and not in a good way.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on November 03, 2022, 07:09:28 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on November 03, 2022, 06:52:50 AM
I do enjoy reading these posts, having in the past been a real fan of 'the right sound' for me. With the advent of digital, and the approach of poorer hearing, I have revised the ways in which I consume music, moving from physical media and carefully placed speakers all over the house, to listening on a decent pair of headphones costing around £400 and various HDs played through Sonos at a bit rate of 320, or using the highest Spotify bit-rate via my smartphone. I have no doubt that the young or the less aurally challenged would notice a difference, but I don't really miss the lossless sound or absence of hardware.

Oh, how time marches with all of its consequences. As I say, I do still enjoy reading this thread.

Just having big speakers is enough for me these days! ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on November 03, 2022, 07:09:37 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on November 03, 2022, 07:07:52 AM
I am crying on your behalf. I feel the throb in my pockets, and not in a good way.

Well I managed a project well for a client, and thus gave me the opportunity to grab this beauty. :laugh:
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on November 03, 2022, 07:10:42 AM
I'm still nursing my old Headroom amp which includes analog cross-feed. It is not a huge effect, but it gives most recordings more natural imaging.

Try this, put on a mono recording on headphones (or play a stereo recording on mono) and take off one earpiece. The sound is oddly disembodied (at least it is to me). The brain wants to compare the sound between the two ears and if one is missing it doesn't know what to do. I get a similar effect with recordings that have very strong stereo separation, like the old Mercury's. An instrument or section can be almost entirely in one channel, and while that works on speakers, it doesn't work for me on headphones. Cross-feed helps to fix that. Of course, a lot of stereo recordings don't have such strong localization and sound ok on headphones with or without headphones.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: foxandpeng on November 03, 2022, 07:19:54 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 03, 2022, 07:09:28 AM
Just having big speakers is enough for me these days! ;D

Size is everything, or so I am told.

Quote from: Harry on November 03, 2022, 07:09:37 AM
Well I managed a project well for a client, and thus gave me the opportunity to grab this beauty. :laugh:

I also live in Projects World, but as a public servant, hence my ability to be able to manage projects poorly without personal financial consequences.

*turns up the music*
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on November 03, 2022, 07:21:44 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on November 03, 2022, 07:19:54 AM
Size is everything, or so I am told.

I also live in Projects World, but as a public servant, hence my ability to be able to manage projects poorly without personal financial consequences.

*turns up the music*


LOL
That made me spill my wine all over the place...... ::)

And that also

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Klavierman on November 30, 2022, 07:46:32 AM
This is my system:

Speakers:
Magico S5 MkII

Amplification:
Pass Labs XP-22 preamp
Pass Labs X250.8 power amp
Pass Labs XP-17 phono stage

Sources:
Oracle Delphi MkVI turntable/SME 309 tonearm
Koetsu Rosewood Signature phono cartridge
Esoteric K01XD CD/SACD/DAC

Misc:
Focal Utopia headphones
Woo Audio WA2 headphone amp

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on December 01, 2022, 08:13:20 AM
(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/90bba56f-6685-4aef-af26-da84da93bcf1-jpeg.872863/)

An arm with one 0 less than before.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 01, 2022, 09:34:20 AM
I have an SME 309 on my Michell Gyro.  I got it used from Audiogon back when that was still a pretty good site for used gear.  It's an excellent arm, except that setting vertical tracking angle and azimuth are a bit tricky. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 01, 2022, 10:45:59 AM
Quote from: Valentino on December 01, 2022, 08:13:20 AM(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/90bba56f-6685-4aef-af26-da84da93bcf1-jpeg.872863/)

An arm with one 0 less than before.
Sorry, not following you.  :-[

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 01, 2022, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 01, 2022, 10:45:59 AMSorry, not following you.  :-[

PD

SME had a popular tonearm called the 3009.  Quite a different beasty from the 309.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 01, 2022, 11:21:09 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 01, 2022, 10:50:45 AMSME had a popular tonearm called the 3009.  Quite a different beasty from the 309.
Ah, thanks!  So, I suspect that the 309 is much better then.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on December 04, 2022, 09:22:37 PM
There were many 3009's: Series I, Series II, Series II Improved, S2 Improved, and R. Also some were available as 3012, 12" long.

The 309 is better, at least better than the 3009 Series II Improved it replaced on my 'table. I actually found setting azimuth not so difficult with a small libelle since the top of the headshell is completely flat.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 04, 2022, 10:52:28 PM
Quote from: Valentino on December 04, 2022, 09:22:37 PMThere were many 3009's: Series I, Series II, Series II Improved, S2 Improved, and R. Also some were available as 3012, 12" long.

The 309 is better, at least better than the 3009 Series II Improved it replaced on my 'table. I actually found setting azimuth not so difficult with a small libelle since the top of the headshell is completely flat.

That doesn't guarantee, given manufacturing tolerances, that the stylus actually has the right azimuth. 

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on December 04, 2022, 11:50:14 PM
Higher up the SME chain with IV & V there is no mechanical means of adjusting azimuth. The popular Rega tonearms also dispenses with azimuth adjustment. Both preferring a more rigid design.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on December 05, 2022, 01:47:57 AM
It's a give and take. The 309/312 design may be more rigid than the classic SME/JIS/Ortofon but the latter is possible to make so rigid that it's the design of the actual headshell that matters. Anyway the 309/312 was an answer to those who did not like the departure from replacable head shells of the 3009/12 line (or the replaceable arm wands of the Series III) of the Series V and IV.
How to adjust azimuth is a minefield. Alex Korf has nice primer on it. Read the comments too:
http://korfaudio.com/blog36
http://korfaudio.com/blog37
http://korfaudio.com/blog38

I  use cartridges that are not exotic and make the headshell flat and leave it, just like on an IV, V or a Rega for that matter*. The Rega flatness depends and their headshells ring pretty loud.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on December 05, 2022, 03:26:27 AM
Quote from: Klavierman on November 30, 2022, 07:46:32 AMThis is my system:

Speakers:
Magico S5 MkII

Amplification:
Pass Labs XP-22 preamp
Pass Labs X250.8 power amp
Pass Labs XP-17 phono stage

Sources:
Oracle Delphi MkVI turntable/SME 309 tonearm
Koetsu Rosewood Signature phono cartridge
Esoteric K01XD CD/SACD/DAC

Misc:
Focal Utopia headphones
Woo Audio WA2 headphone amp


Thanks for sharing.  Yours seems to be a well chosen system, and certainly high end by any esteem.

Do you play computer files from a device of your own, and/or do you stream from any Internet sources?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Klavierman on December 05, 2022, 07:44:46 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on December 05, 2022, 03:26:27 AMThanks for sharing.  Yours seems to be a well chosen system, and certainly high end by any esteem.

Do you play computer files from a device of your own, and/or do you stream from any Internet sources?

Thank you. I play files from a Macbook Pro laptop, and I stream from Qobuz.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on December 11, 2022, 01:20:48 PM
Oh my...I received my new (to me...they are too pricey new, and not exactly cheap gently used!) Focal Stellia headphones today. Wow...they are incredibly clear and detailed. If it's on the recording, you'll hear it.
(https://i.imgur.com/dGg4iOt.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 11, 2022, 02:09:16 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on December 11, 2022, 01:20:48 PMOh my...I received my new (to me...they are too pricey new, and not exactly cheap gently used!) Focal Stellia headphones today. Wow...they are incredibly clear and detailed. If it's on the recording, you'll hear it.
(https://i.imgur.com/dGg4iOt.jpg)

These appear to maintain an almost identical drop at around 4 KHz as the Elears and they cost three times as much.  The rise at 8 KHz appears slightly less severe.  There are things on orchestral recordings you may not hear due to the frequency response. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on December 11, 2022, 03:51:23 PM
Quote from: Todd on December 11, 2022, 02:09:16 PMThese appear to maintain an almost identical drop at around 4 KHz as the Elears and they cost three times as much.  The rise at 8 KHz appears slightly less severe.  There are things on orchestral recordings you may not hear due to the frequency response. 
On the contrary, I'm hearing things I've never heard before. I tend to listen to music rather than look at graphs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 11, 2022, 03:57:30 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on December 11, 2022, 03:51:23 PMOn the contrary, I'm hearing things I've never heard before. I tend to listen to music rather than look at graphs.

Actual measurements show you what you can hear with headphones.  You don't have the whole "room interaction" bit to fall back on, as audiophile true believers typically do.  If you are hearing things you have never heard before, it is due to the distorted sound of the headphones and the faulty emphasis on certain frequencies.  I own the Elears and know their strengths and weaknesses, and that is why they collect dust.  I have no doubt that Focal refined their approach to headphones since releasing the Elear, but I also have no doubt that the headphones share the same sonic signature given the measurements.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on December 13, 2022, 04:35:15 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on December 11, 2022, 01:20:48 PMOh my...I received my new (to me...they are too pricey new, and not exactly cheap gently used!) Focal Stellia headphones today. Wow...they are incredibly clear and detailed. If it's on the recording, you'll hear it.
(https://i.imgur.com/dGg4iOt.jpg)

Without prejudice I'm just going to refer to ASR's review of the Focal Sellia (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/focal-stellia-review-closed-back-headphone.28146/)
The RTINGS.com Stellia review (https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/focal/stellia) is also not so stellar  ;D

Note that the frequency response criterion used a ASR is the emerged standard "Harmon Curve" (https://www.headphonesty.com/2020/04/harman-target-curves-part-3/).  Based on the ASR review, the Stellia like it has highish distortion in the 300 to 1100 range.  Personally I feel that distortion is generally bad for good detail and transparency.

From what I understand, binaural recordings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_recording) are best for headphones.  In any case I really don't enjoy headphone listening so my Audio Technica phones don't get much use.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 13, 2022, 05:10:36 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on December 13, 2022, 04:35:15 AMNote that the frequency response criterion used a ASR is the emerged standard "Harmon Curve" (https://www.headphonesty.com/2020/04/harman-target-curves-part-3/).

That is not a standard.  There is no standard.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on December 13, 2022, 05:47:14 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 13, 2022, 05:10:36 AMThat {Harman Curve} is not a standard.  There is no standard.

Not to quibble over the use of "standard", the Harmon Curve is frequently cited as ideal.

The "Curve" (https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-the-harman-curve/) is based on a sound, scientific investigation of listens' typical preferences.  So it is based on a broad preference which the individual may not share.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 13, 2022, 05:57:32 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on December 13, 2022, 05:47:14 AMNot to quibble over the use of "standard", the Harmon Curve is frequently cited as ideal.

By whom?  It is not cited by most manufacturers, by engineers, by pro audio folks, etc.  It is not a standard.  No standard exists.

I have a pair of Denons that conform to the Harman curve and they sound good enough, but hardly ideal.  I prefer more high frequency energy and less low frequency energy for music; the Denons are great for TV and movies.  Ideal is a meaningless term.  I know for certain that some mixing engineers seek flat response measured at the earcup, fully aware of what that translates to for regular listening, or, as one puts it, for audiophile listening.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on December 13, 2022, 07:23:05 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 13, 2022, 05:57:32 AMBy whom?  It is not cited by most manufacturers, by engineers, by pro audio folks, etc.  It is not a standard.  No standard exists.

It is commonly mentioned:  that you might not have heard of it doesn't diminish the fact.  For example it is used by ASR and also by Rtings for headphone testing.;  Rtings refers to is as "target response" which they show on their 'Raw response' graphs.

I agree that it isn't a industry standard.

Quote from: Todd on December 13, 2022, 05:57:32 AMI have a pair of Denons that conform to the Harman curve and they sound good enough, but hardly ideal.  I prefer more high frequency energy and less low frequency energy for music; the Denons are great for TV and movies.  Ideal is a meaningless term.  I know for certain that some mixing engineers seek flat response measured at the earcup, fully aware of what that translates to for regular listening, or, as one puts it, for audiophile listening.

No dispute:  you are entitled to your preferences.  To quote Marcus Aurelius, "Life is opinion".
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on December 13, 2022, 07:35:43 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on December 13, 2022, 04:35:15 AMWithout prejudice I'm just going to refer to ASR's review of the Focal Sellia (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/focal-stellia-review-closed-back-headphone.28146/)
The RTINGS.com Stellia review (https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/focal/stellia) is also not so stellar  ;D

Note that the frequency response criterion used a ASR is the emerged standard "Harmon Curve" (https://www.headphonesty.com/2020/04/harman-target-curves-part-3/).  Based on the ASR review, the Stellia like it has highish distortion in the 300 to 1100 range.  Personally I feel that distortion is generally bad for good detail and transparency.

From what I understand, binaural recordings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_recording) are best for headphones.  In any case I really don't enjoy headphone listening so my Audio Technica phones don't get much use.
If ASR were soft paper, I wouldn't wipe my ass with them, and anyone who puts stock in their "reviews" has no credibility with me. . Regardless of the graphs, these are very highly regarded headphones, they sound fantastic to me, and that's all that matters.  I made this post to share my joy in my new purchase, not to have you two piss in my pool. I'm done here.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 13, 2022, 08:29:56 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on December 13, 2022, 07:23:05 AMIt is commonly mentioned:  that you might not have heard of it doesn't diminish the fact.

You cite two entities.  It is not the standard.  You are misusing the word and concept.


Quote from: Bachtoven on December 13, 2022, 07:35:43 AMRegardless of the graphs, these are very highly regarded headphones, they sound fantastic to me, and that's all that matters.  I made this post to share my joy in my new purchase, not to have you two piss in my pool. I'm done here.

They are not highly regarded.  A very small number of self-selected reviewers reinforce and, importantly, validate your taste.  Consumer audio is a small portion of the overall audio market, and the high-end segment of consumer audio is a niche market, with much snake oil being peddled.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 13, 2022, 08:47:40 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on December 13, 2022, 07:35:43 AMRegardless of the graphs, these are very highly regarded headphones, they sound fantastic to me, and that's all that matters.  I made this post to share my joy in my new purchase, not to have you two piss in my pool. I'm done here.
Just enjoy them and let any naysayer's/critic's comments just drop by the wayside.... The most important thing is that you enjoy your music!  :)

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Klavierman on December 13, 2022, 10:51:00 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 13, 2022, 08:29:56 AMThey are not highly regarded.
They are by people who actually own them. There are hundreds of positive comments from owners in various headphone forums. Take a look. Wait...don't: You'd probably "piss in their pools" to paraphrase Bachtoven.

I own a pair of Focal Utopias, which are basically an open version of the Stellia, and I absolutely love them.

To feel validated, you'll probably have to attack this post, so knock yourself out.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Klavierman on December 13, 2022, 10:51:34 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 13, 2022, 08:47:40 AMJust enjoy them and let any naysayer's/critic's comments just drop by the wayside.... The most important thing is that you enjoy your music!  :)

Best wishes,

PD
Absolutely!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 13, 2022, 11:09:58 AM
Quote from: Klavierman on December 13, 2022, 10:51:00 AMThey are by people who actually own them.

I should hope so, otherwise they'd look foolish for purchasing Giffen goods, now wouldn't they?  I've spent some time on headphone forums and don't mind lambasting people for the ridiculous comments they write regarding sound quality.  Keep in mind, I purchased Focal Elears when they were new, and I don't use them.  Likewise, my Audeze LCD-2s are collecting dust.  I remember when, the stupid Sennheiser Orpheus and some slightly less stupid Stax headphones aside, $1000/pair was considered super-duper deluxe in the headphone market.  But then the companies determined that they could bilk people for even more.  Because technology!  They were right.

As your post and Bachtoven's demonstrates, many audiophiles can listen to something with incontrovertible measured frequency response and then claim that they hear something other than the frequency response can physically deliver.  Now, if you are using some type of EQ, then you can say that you addressed the distorted frequency response to achieve good sound.

As to a magazine reviewer making claims that dynamic driver headphones sound like electrostatic speakers, well, OK.  Sure.  I'll bet electrostatic headphones sound like angels singing. 

I'd sure like to know how much VerVent pays to advertise in the cited magazine, for Focal and/or Naim products.  Fortunately, audio magazines are mere entertainment journals, so perceived conflicts of interest are irrelevant.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Klavierman on December 13, 2022, 04:31:21 PM
Quote from: Klavierman on November 30, 2022, 07:46:32 AMThis is my system:

Speakers:
Magico S5 MkII

Amplification:
Pass Labs XP-22 preamp
Pass Labs X250.8 power amp
Pass Labs XP-17 phono stage

Sources:
Oracle Delphi MkVI turntable/SME 309 tonearm
Koetsu Rosewood Signature phono cartridge
Esoteric K01XD CD/SACD/DAC

Misc:
Focal Utopia headphones
Woo Audio WA2 headphone amp



Update: I replaced the Pass Labs preamp and power amp with a tube Ayon Audio Auris II preamp and Ayon Audio Triton power amp. Wow--the tubes definitely put extra meat on the sound's bones! I'm going to keep using the Pass Labs phono stage--it's dead quiet and works great with the tube amps.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 13, 2022, 04:37:37 PM
Quote from: Klavierman on December 13, 2022, 04:31:21 PMWow--the tubes definitely put extra meat on the sound's bones!

What, pray tell, is "meat"?  Do you mean distortion? 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Klavierman on December 13, 2022, 05:06:12 PM
Quote from: Todd on December 13, 2022, 04:37:37 PMWhat, pray tell, is "meat"?  Do you mean distortion?
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwheresmysammich.com%2Fimages%2F29387.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=3b1cbaf5925ca0f5ddf0c315309087c26ead977fcae768f02de883ea0b67c18f&ipo=images)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 13, 2022, 05:07:01 PM
Quote from: Klavierman on December 13, 2022, 05:06:12 PM(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwheresmysammich.com%2Fimages%2F29387.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=3b1cbaf5925ca0f5ddf0c315309087c26ead977fcae768f02de883ea0b67c18f&ipo=images)


Distortion it is.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 13, 2022, 05:26:11 PM
Quote from: Todd on December 13, 2022, 05:07:01 PMDistortion it is.

It's not that hard to design a tube amp with inaudible levels of noise and distortion.  It's probably a higher output impedance of the amp that adds a bit of mid-bass warmth with these speakers.  At least that's my experience.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 13, 2022, 05:30:00 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 13, 2022, 05:26:11 PMIt's probably a higher output impedance of the amp that adds a bit of mid-bass warmth with these speakers.

Mid-bass "warmth" = Harmonic distortion,

or,

Mid-bass "warmth" = Frequency distortion

Distortion = distortion.  Audiophiles have a very hard time admitting that they like distortion and dislike flat frequency response.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Klavierman on December 13, 2022, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: Todd on December 13, 2022, 05:30:00 PMAudiophiles have a very hard time admitting that they like distortion and dislike flat frequency response.
And you have a very hard time admitting that you are dead wrong, so let's call it a draw.

Don't bother responding. Discussing anything with you, as I'm sure countless other people will agree based on other subforums here, is like teaching a pig to sing: Don't bother. It only angers the pig and wastes your time.

Goodbye.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 13, 2022, 07:36:11 PM
Quote from: Klavierman on December 13, 2022, 05:44:58 PMAnd you have a very hard time admitting that you are dead wrong, so let's call it a draw.

Don't bother responding. Discussing anything with you, as I'm sure countless other people will agree based on other subforums here, is like teaching a pig to sing: Don't bother. It only angers the pig and wastes your time.

Goodbye.

I do like the last-wordism stuff.  I do hope you post again.  Maybe about hi-res audio next time. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on December 14, 2022, 03:55:33 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 13, 2022, 07:36:11 PMI do like the last-wordism stuff.  I do hope you post again.  Maybe about hi-res audio next time.

OMG. You've pissed him off so much that he's just flounced out of the forum!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on December 14, 2022, 04:07:18 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 13, 2022, 04:37:37 PMWhat, pray tell, is "meat"?  Do you mean distortion?

Whether he acknowledges it or not, he's meaning 2nd and/or 3rd order harmonic distortion.

IMHO and that of many folks, these particular distortion, (at less than, say, -60 dB), sound pleasant in themselves plus they mask unpleasant higher order harmonics and other "nasties" in down & upstream components including the recording itself.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on December 14, 2022, 04:10:37 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 14, 2022, 03:55:33 AMOMG. You've pissed him off so much that he's just flounced out of the forum!

Maybe he should get a forum badge for that. :(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on December 14, 2022, 07:00:31 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on December 14, 2022, 04:10:37 AMMaybe he should get a forum badge for that. :(

After spending that insane amount of money any criticism is going to hurt. I wouldn't pay those prices if I could afford to, which I cannot.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on December 14, 2022, 12:24:21 PM
I took my Marantz SACD player to the county dump and they charger me $10 to recycle it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on December 26, 2022, 09:58:54 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 14, 2022, 03:55:33 AMOMG. You've pissed him off so much that he's just flounced out of the forum!
And that's a shame. Klavierman and I became "friends" via PM. He's a concert pianist, teaches at a conservatory, and he has an audio engineering degree. He was generous with his time by giving me some playing tips. He had a lot to offer to this forum, but he couldn't "tolerate the self-important blowhards who persist in spewing misinformation."
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on December 26, 2022, 10:01:33 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on December 26, 2022, 09:58:54 PMAnd that's a shame. Klavierman and I became "friends" via PM. He's a concert pianist, teaches at a conservatory, and he has an audio engineering degree. He was generous with his time by giving me some playing tips. He had a lot to offer to this forum, but he couldn't "tolerate the self-important blowhards who persist in spewing misinformation."


Isn't that the effective definition of social media? :(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 27, 2022, 02:59:23 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on December 26, 2022, 09:58:54 PMAnd that's a shame. Klavierman and I became "friends" via PM. He's a concert pianist, teaches at a conservatory, and he has an audio engineering degree. He was generous with his time by giving me some playing tips. He had a lot to offer to this forum, but he couldn't "tolerate the self-important blowhards who persist in spewing misinformation."

:(  I hope that he comes back.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on December 27, 2022, 04:12:24 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on December 26, 2022, 09:58:54 PMAnd that's a shame. Klavierman and I became "friends" via PM. He's a concert pianist, teaches at a conservatory, and he has an audio engineering degree. He was generous with his time by giving me some playing tips. He had a lot to offer to this forum, but he couldn't "tolerate the self-important blowhards who persist in spewing misinformation."


Some of us should develop thicker skins.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on December 27, 2022, 08:16:53 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on December 27, 2022, 04:12:24 AMSome of us should develop thicker skins.
And some should not be such monumental assholes. This forum would be a more pleasant experience for everyone.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 27, 2022, 08:30:15 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on December 27, 2022, 08:16:53 AMAnd some should not be such monumental assholes. This forum would be a more pleasant experience for everyone.


There is no place or need for such rudeness.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 28, 2022, 05:23:30 AM
People claiming to have an audio engineering degree who extol the virtues of a headphone design with a 10 dB drop at 4 KHz, and people who passionately defend such assessments, go a long way toward explaining the contemporary audiophile market. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on December 28, 2022, 06:00:04 AM
Why the existence of an audiophile market should be such an annoyance to someone who is not part of it and why those who are must be opposed, mocked and belittled always and everywhere they raise their ugly heads, which is a particular case of why some people seem not to be able to enjoy what they enjoy in the way they enjoy it unless they trash other's people enjoying it differently, is one of the inscrutable mysteries of the human nature.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 28, 2022, 06:05:20 AM
That is one long run-on sentence.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 28, 2022, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 28, 2022, 06:00:04 AMWhy the existence of an audiophile market should be such an annoyance to someone who is not part of it and why those who are must be opposed, mocked and belittled always and everywhere they raise their ugly heads, which is a particular case of why some people seem not to be able to enjoy what they enjoy in the way they enjoy it unless they trash other's people enjoying it differently, is one of the inscrutable mysteries of the human nature.

Because those people are different. That's enough for many to be annoyed. The world of high-end audio can be crazy and annoying at times, but sometimes funny.

There are audiophiles and there are audiophools. The former are willing to admit their hobby is more than audio quality: Brand names, build quality and even placebo effect. The latter believe the claims of snake oil sellers and think they know better than anyone else.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 28, 2022, 11:00:57 AM
I think I have listed my audio system in the past, but there has been updates over the years, so this is what I have currently:

NAD T758 AV Surround Sound Receiver
NAD C440 RDS Stereo Tuner
NAD C565BEE CD Player
Cambridge Audio azur 650BD Blu-ray/DVD/SACD Player
Sony BDP-S1700 Blu-ray/DVD Player
Sony KDL-32EX500 TV
5 x Hifi 6/2 DIY speaker (L/C/R/SL/SR)
Hifi 50/2 DIY subwoofer
Sennheiser HD-598 Headphones
DIY Headphone crossfeed adapter
DIY Headphone "wide" crossfeed adapter

I am not rich and so called high-end market is completely outside my budget. I have to be content with this type of cheap china crap, but it has good enough sound for my wooden ears. I don't even need better...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on December 28, 2022, 11:44:39 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 28, 2022, 10:41:47 AMBecause those people are different. That's enough for many to be annoyed.

Indeedie.

QuoteThere are audiophiles and there are audiophools. The former are willing to admit their hobby is more than audio quality: Brand names, build quality and even placebo effect. The latter believe the claims of snake oil sellers and think they know better than anyone else.

Well said --- but then again, what people do with their own money and time (including buying snake oil and feeling better after using it extensively) is their own business and nobody's else.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 28, 2022, 11:56:30 AM
Audiophile true believers are gullible marks. 

(https://preview.redd.it/ppcqp4f62fd81.jpg?auto=webp&s=dbb946c14a46096c960a2228171b4d8101376224)

Anyone else remember when Lexicon took an Oppo, dropped it in a new case, and added $3000 to the price tag?  Yeah, some people praised the Lexicon to the heavens while sniffing at the Oppo.

I do confess that I have been working on making some resonance control devices from wood.  Probably Ponderosa pine.  Maybe Douglas fir.  I think <insert other random wood here> results in shrill high frequencies.  They would of course not be kiln dried.  They would definitely have asymmetric grain patterns to more efficiently disperse midrange frequency artifacts and thus lift the final veil separating the listener from a sublime and truly realistic listening experience.  They would result in holographic, 3D, even palpable soundstages that would make listeners believe that they could reach out and touch the instrumentalists.  Most important of all, said devices would allow listeners to hear the subtlest microdynamic nuances even in the context of massive macrodynamic passages.  Listeners would be able to tell which second desk violin players use Guareris, and which Amatis.  That's how good the resonance control devices will be.

For single-ended headphone aficionados, I can report that I have been developing a proprietary headphone plug cleaning solution that will have a similar impact to performance as the resonance control devices.  Current projected price is only $75.00/oz.  I am also developing a proprietary cleaning solution for balanced headphone cables that will literally wipe away audible artifacts.  It will go for the low, low price of $125.00/oz.  It will work best with the directional cables I plan on selling.  These will be $2000/meter, or $3000/meter for the cryogenically treated version.

Audiophiles deserve to be taken very, very seriously.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on December 28, 2022, 12:00:13 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 28, 2022, 11:00:57 AMcheap china crap

If you mean this

(http://audiorealviews.site/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/DSC00348-1024x552.jpg)

and this

(https://cdni.dwyn.ro/images/products/img_202106242018/166153/full/philips-casti-audio-in-ear-philips-pro6305bk-00-cu-fir-microfon-negru-279363.webp)

then I'm perfectly happy with it --- not least because I can hear no difference between FLAC and mp3.  :)  8)



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on December 29, 2022, 07:14:17 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 28, 2022, 11:56:30 AM...
For single-ended headphone aficionados, I can report that I have been developing a proprietary headphone plug cleaning solution that will have a similar impact to performance as the resonance control devices.  Current projected price is only $75.00/oz.  I am also developing a proprietary cleaning solution for balanced headphone cables that will literally wipe away audible artifacts.  It will go for the low, low price of $125.00/oz.  It will work best with the directional cables I plan on selling.  These will be $2000/meter, or $3000/meter for the cryogenically treated version.
...

Good luck with your venture.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 29, 2022, 07:19:57 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on December 29, 2022, 07:14:17 AMGood luck with your venture.

I already have my cryogenic treatment hardware ready to go.

(https://www.repairaid.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/fridge-is-too-cold.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 29, 2022, 11:00:31 AM
Quote from: Todd on December 28, 2022, 11:56:30 AMFor single-ended headphone aficionados, I can report that I have been developing a proprietary headphone plug cleaning solution that will have a similar impact to performance as the resonance control devices.  Current projected price is only $75.00/oz.  I am also developing a proprietary cleaning solution for balanced headphone cables that will literally wipe away audible artifacts.  It will go for the low, low price of $125.00/oz.  It will work best with the directional cables I plan on selling.  These will be $2000/meter, or $3000/meter for the cryogenically treated version.

Audiophiles deserve to be taken very, very seriously.


Too much overhead.  You need to figure out how to do this over the phone:

http://machinadynamica.com/machina43.htm
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 29, 2022, 12:10:49 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 29, 2022, 11:00:31 AMToo much overhead.  You need to figure out how to do this over the phone:

http://machinadynamica.com/machina43.htm

Anagram of the day: In Japan snake oil is called lion sake.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 02, 2023, 04:54:37 AM
I'm interested in the new MiniDSP Flex Eight (https://docs.minidsp.com/product-manuals/flex-eight/index.html). It can, it seems, replace my currend RME Fireface UC sound card and PC running 4-way crossovers in PLParEQ under Console. Pretty neat little chinese box.

(https://docs.minidsp.com/product-manuals/flex-eight/images/photos/flex/flex-front-oblique-remote.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 02, 2023, 05:03:23 AM
Quote from: Valentino on January 02, 2023, 04:54:37 AMI'm interested in the new MiniDSP Flex Eight (https://docs.minidsp.com/product-manuals/flex-eight/index.html). It can, it seems, replace my currend RME Fireface UC sound card and PC running 4-way crossovers in PLParEQ under Console. Pretty neat little chinese box.

(https://docs.minidsp.com/product-manuals/flex-eight/images/photos/flex/flex-front-oblique-remote.jpg)

Are you planning to add the Dirac Live Upgrade (https://www.minidsp.com/products/plugins/flex-eight-dirac-live-upgrade-detail)?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 02, 2023, 06:17:51 AM
Nah, much more fun to set everything "manually".  :) It's what (with a little help from a friend) I do now and it works a charm.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 03:44:54 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 28, 2022, 11:44:39 AMWell said --- but then again, what people do with their own money and time (including buying snake oil and feeling better after using it extensively) is their own business and nobody's else.

Something being someones own business means I have no business to interfere it. I can't stop anyone buing snake oil. It doesn't mean I can't express my opinion about what other people do. That's my own business! It is an odd idea that transaction of money makes an activity somehow above criticism.

I have never denied the fact that people feel better after buying snake oil. Of course they do! Why else would they spend massive amounts of ca$h on it? It's just that the cause of the good feeling is irrational and has nothing (or in some cases miniscule amount) to do with the sound itself. It's all about how our mind works. I have 3 problems with feeling better buying snake oil:

1 - It costs a lot! "Feeling good" should not be that expensive or even a commodity!
2 - The psychology behind the good feeling is ignored => not very intellectual.
3 - Snake oil sellers exploit the ignorance of 2.

Give $10 to a homeless person on the street and you'll feel better. Instead of buying a $1000 snake oil cable, give $10 to 100 homeless people on the street and you feel like Jesus! That's how we "feel good", but our psychology makes us buy more and more stuff instead and that makes us feel less good. We sabotage our "good feel" a lot ourselves. That's the reality and I accept it.

So, if you want to buy snake oil go for it! Nobody is stopping you, but I am entitled to express my opinion and say you spent a lot of money for good feel (not improved sound quality) and if you want improved sound quality you need to spent your money elsewhere (better loudspeakers, acoustic materials etc.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 04:01:54 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 03:44:54 AMSomething being someones own business means I have no business to interfere it. I can't stop anyone buing snake oil. It doesn't mean I can't express my opinion about what other people do. That's my own business! It is an odd idea that transaction of money makes an activity somehow above criticism.

I have never denied the fact that people feel better after buying snake oil. Of course they do! Why else would they spend massive amounts of ca$h on it? It's just that the cause of the good feeling is irrational and has nothing (or in some cases miniscule amount) to do with the sound itself. It's all about how our mind works. I have 3 problems with feeling better buying snake oil:

1 - It costs a lot! "Feeling good" should not be that expensive or even a commodity!
2 - The psychology behind the good feeling is ignored => not very intellectual.
3 - Snake oil sellers exploit the ignorance of 2.

So, if you want to buy snake oil go for it! Nobody is stopping you, but I am entitled to express my opinion and say you spent a lot of money for good feel (not improved sound quality) and if you want improved sound quality you need to spent your money elsewhere (better loudspeakers, acoustic materials etc.)

All the above well and good, but you have seen yourself where such discussions lead. Hardcore audiophiles live in a world of their own out of which they can't be lifted (and I'm not even sure they should be lifted). Any attempt at that not only falls on deaf ears but more often than not results in unnecessary bitterness from both parts and a general toxic environment. It's simply not worth it. Besides, these people spend their own money, not yours or mine, so your #1 point is moot. Of course I wouldn't spend that much on audio equipment even if I could afford it, but that doesn't give me the right to tell them they shouldn't either. AFter all, one can spend money in far worse ways than chasing the wild goose of perfect sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 06, 2023, 04:33:16 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 04:01:54 AMBesides, these people spend their own money, not yours or mine, so your #1 point is moot.

Some men spend money on toupees and facial hair dye.  Audiophilia is like that.  Of course people should comment on it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 04:48:54 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 06, 2023, 04:33:16 AMSome men spend money on toupees and facial hair dye.  Audiophilia is like that.  Of course people should comment on it.

People who believe / hope that hardcore audiophiles could change their mind might as well believe / hope that the Nile could flow southwards or that the crocodiles therein could fly.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 06, 2023, 04:53:52 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 04:48:54 AMPeople who believe / hope that hardcore audiophiles could change their mind might as well believe / hope that the Nile could flow southwards or that the crocodiles therein could fly.

It has nothing to do with changing their minds. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 04:56:55 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 06, 2023, 04:53:52 AMIt has nothing to do with changing their minds. 

Then it's even worse than I thought.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 06, 2023, 05:00:08 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 04:56:55 AMThen it's even worse than I thought.

I would have thought the toupee comment would have given it away, but obviously not.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 05:03:07 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 06, 2023, 05:00:08 AMI would have thought the toupee comment would have given it away, but obviously not.

Why would anyone waste their time commenting on something in the full knowledge of the fact that their comments will have no effect whatsoever on the commented natter? --- unless, of course, one has a lot of time to waste and/or relish in commenting for the sake of commenting.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 06, 2023, 05:04:18 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 05:03:07 AMWhy would anyone waste their time commenting on something in the full knowledge of the fact that their comments will have no effect whatsoever on the commented natter? --- unless, of course, one has a lot of time to waste and/or relish in commenting for the sake of commenting.

People do it on GMG all the time.  Like you are doing now.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 05:10:47 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 06, 2023, 05:04:18 AMPeople do it on GMG all the time.  Like you are doing now.

Fair enough and I saw that coming. I expressed myself clumsily. I'll try to reformulate.

Regardless of your comments, hardcore audiophiles will keep chasing the wild goose of perfect sound --- which they are actually perfectly entitled to do. Why is it so annoying to you?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 06, 2023, 05:12:10 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 05:10:47 AMRegardless of your comments, hardcore audiophiles will keep chasing the wild goose of perfect sound --- which they are actually perfectly entitled to do. Why is it so annoying to you?

It's amusing.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 05:35:43 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 04:01:54 AMAll the above well and good, but you have seen yourself where such discussions lead. Hardcore audiophiles live in a world of their own out of which they can't be lifted (and I'm not even sure they should be lifted).

Well, I'm not "lifting" anyone from audiophoolery. I am commenting audiophoolery.

Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 04:01:54 AMAny attempt at that not only falls on deaf ears but more often than not results in unnecessary bitterness from both parts and a general toxic environment.

I am not bitter in this context and I hope the other side isn't bitter either. If anything, they should be feeling great after spending tons of many of good feel audio gear, right? I think it is important to bring up that snake oil is only one way to do audio. The opposite approach is "bang for the buck", where you set the target sound quality level and then figure out a cost-effective way to get there.

Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 04:01:54 AMIt's simply not worth it. Besides, these people spend their own money, not yours or mine, so your #1 point is moot. Of course I wouldn't spend that much on audio equipment even if I could afford it, but that doesn't give me the right to tell them they shouldn't either. AFter all, one can spend money in far worse ways than chasing the wild goose of perfect sound.

Again you think money transaction matters. If I burn my 100 euro bill it is really dumb. It doesn't matter it was MY own money. You would be correct to call it stupid. I am not telling anyone what to do and what not to do (I may express my recommendations). I am commenting on what they are doing! I give my opinion about what I think about what they do. Other people are similarly entitled to comment on my usage of money.

You have a tendency of trying to make everything a debate. In your own words, is it worth it?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 05:45:09 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 04:48:54 AMPeople who believe / hope that hardcore audiophiles could change their mind might as well believe / hope that the Nile could flow southwards or that the crocodiles therein could fly.

There are people who have changed their mind. It does happen. It just happens with a small percentage of people and it takes time. Nobody is going to change their minds after reading a few posts online, but those posts, if skillfully written can insert a mental seed in the brain of some people and in time this seed grows into enlightenment that triggers change in beliefs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 06:28:35 AM
The old CD-player (Philips CD850) of an acquaintance is becoming faulty and the owner of the unit is in the situation of needing a new CD player. The problem is he is retired and not willing to pay a lot. Since normal people stream music these days instead of playing CDs, proper CD-players are targeted and sold merely to audiophiles who are willing to pay more than normal people. That's why the cheapest models are about 400 euros, which is a bit expensive for my acquaintance. DVD/Blu-ray-players are much cheaper, but don't have a display on the unit (everything is on TV screen) so they are not practical for playing CDs. They don't even have RCA connectors. After research the only "affordable" CD-players are cheap products like AUNA AV2-CD509, but going from "luxurious" Philips CD850 to such a cheap player must be quite a drop, perhaps not in sound quality, but in the feel of use. If all people still used CD-player, there would be models from the reliable manufacturers (Denon, Philips, Sony, Yamaha, etc.) at 200-300 euro price range which is what my acquaintance is looking for. It sucks when other people stop doing things the ways you are doing them. You become marginalized and have to pay extra for that.

Used CD-players cost next to nothing, but are risky.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 06, 2023, 08:06:56 AM
.
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 06:28:35 AMThe old CD-player (Philips CD850) of an acquaintance is becoming faulty and the owner of the unit is in the situation of needing a new CD player. The problem is he is retired and not willing to pay a lot. Since normal people stream music these days instead of playing CDs, proper CD-players are targeted and sold merely to audiophiles who are willing to pay more than normal people. That's why the cheapest models are about 400 euros, which is a bit expensive for my acquaintance. DVD/Blu-ray-players are much cheaper, but don't have a display on the unit (everything is on TV screen) so they are not practical for playing CDs. They don't even have RCA connectors. After research the only "affordable" CD-players are cheap products like AUNA AV2-CD509, but going from "luxurious" Philips CD850 to such a cheap player must be quite a drop, perhaps not in sound quality, but in the feel of use. If all people still used CD-player, there would be models from the reliable manufacturers (Denon, Philips, Sony, Yamaha, etc.) at 200-300 euro price range which is what my acquaintance is looking for. It sucks when other people stop doing things the ways you are doing them. You become marginalized and have to pay extra for that.

Used CD-players cost next to nothing, but are risky.

So much for recommending a cheap blu-ray player for playing CDs.  I do see some on Amazon that still have displays and RCA outputs, like the one below, but the obscure brand names don't inspire confidence.  I don't know what the availability is like in Finland.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BL4SKRG/

A used CD player is starting to sound like a better bet.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 08:09:03 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 06, 2023, 05:12:10 AMIt's amusing.

That settles it, I guess, although my idea of amusement is vastly different.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 06, 2023, 08:11:32 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 08:09:03 AMThat settles it, I guess, although my idea of amusement is vastly different.

How can you not find it amusing when men in their 50s, 60s, and 70s insist that they are physically capable of hearing what audiophile gear is purportedly capable of reproducing?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 08:16:12 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 05:45:09 AMThere are people who have changed their mind. It does happen. It just happens with a small percentage of people and it takes time. Nobody is going to change their minds after reading a few posts online, but those posts, if skillfully written can insert a mental seed in the brain of some people and in time this seed grows into enlightenment that triggers change in beliefs.

This is also true, but then again: why is the matter so important to you? Why can't you just let hardcore audiophiles have their wild goose chase without giving it as much as a thought? After all, the world is full of people who pursue fantasies, why single them (hardcore audiophiles, that is) out as being in special need of illumination? As long as one's fantasy, whatever it is, does no harm to other people, I say let them have it and enjoy it in spades, even if I personally don't. Live and let live, man. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 08:22:28 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 06, 2023, 08:11:32 AMHow can you not find it amusing when men in their 50s, 60s, and 70s insist that they are physically capable of hearing what audiophile gear is purportedly capable of reproducing?

Oh, that I find highly, exhilaratingly amusing. What I don't find amusing in the least is losing no opportunity to tell them they are wrong. I mean, yes, you are right and they are wrong, but if they choose to be wrong, so be it. If we were to try correcting, or even commenting on, all the follies of mankind we'd soon be riped for the madhouse. And the point I've been repeteadly making is that hardcore audiophilia is a harmless folly and as such should be of no concern to more rational people.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 08:27:51 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 05:35:43 AMAgain you think money transaction matters.

I think that everyone is entitled to spend their lawfully acquired money in whatever way they see fit as long as they do no harm to other people. Of course I'd prefer anyone to spend it wisely and even altruistically, but there is no way to translate this preference into reality.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on January 06, 2023, 08:31:42 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 06, 2023, 08:11:32 AMHow can you not find it amusing when men in their 50s, 60s, and 70s insist that they are physically capable of hearing what audiophile gear is purportedly capable of reproducing?

They may also spend a lot of money on an expensive sports car they are not physically capable of driving at speeds not lawfully permitted where they happen to live. I don't criticise, quite the opposite. Enjoy the feeling of pride of ownership no doubt they have worked hard to obtain. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 06, 2023, 08:34:21 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 08:22:28 AMWhat I don't find amusing in the least is losing no opportunity to tell them they are wrong.

Audiophile invidious distinction deserves endless mockery.  You can choose to not read the posts.


Quote from: Irons on January 06, 2023, 08:31:42 AMThey may also spend a lot of money on an expensive sports car they are not physically capable of driving at speeds not lawfully permitted where they happen to live. I don't criticise, quite the opposite. Enjoy the feeling of pride of ownership no doubt they have worked hard to obtain.

Automotive invidious distinction deserves endless mockery.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 08:39:25 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 06, 2023, 08:34:21 AMAudiophile invidious distinction deserves endless mockery.  You can choose to not read the posts.

Can't avoid reading them but can do my best to avoid responding to them. Nay, not can --- must, actually.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 06, 2023, 08:50:21 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 08:39:25 AMCan't avoid reading them but can do my best to avoid responding to them. Nay, not can --- must, actually.

I recommend you put me back on ignore and stick with it this time. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 08:57:28 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 06, 2023, 08:50:21 AMI recommend you put me back on ignore and stick with it this time.

I just saw some interesting things you posted in the New Releases thread, so that is not an option. Self-restraint is, but that is not my forte, at least not for extended periods of time. I guess we must just learn to live with each other.  ;D

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 06, 2023, 09:16:48 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 06:28:35 AMThe old CD-player (Philips CD850) of an acquaintance is becoming faulty and the owner of the unit is in the situation of needing a new CD player. The problem is he is retired and not willing to pay a lot. Since normal people stream music these days instead of playing CDs, proper CD-players are targeted and sold merely to audiophiles who are willing to pay more than normal people. That's why the cheapest models are about 400 euros, which is a bit expensive for my acquaintance. DVD/Blu-ray-players are much cheaper, but don't have a display on the unit (everything is on TV screen) so they are not practical for playing CDs. They don't even have RCA connectors. After research the only "affordable" CD-players are cheap products like AUNA AV2-CD509, but going from "luxurious" Philips CD850 to such a cheap player must be quite a drop, perhaps not in sound quality, but in the feel of use. If all people still used CD-player, there would be models from the reliable manufacturers (Denon, Philips, Sony, Yamaha, etc.) at 200-300 euro price range which is what my acquaintance is looking for. It sucks when other people stop doing things the ways you are doing them. You become marginalized and have to pay extra for that.

Used CD-players cost next to nothing, but are risky.
I would suggest that he start checking around for reputable audio stores in his area (might have to travel a bit).  They often have used equipment (either on consignment from customers or have used demo equipment around).  Even if they don't have anything in your friend's price range, a good dealer would make an effort to suggest some places to check and/or models to check out [provided that they are not in the middle of an appointment with someone else].

This article might be of help (There's one there which they talk about for $800.) Or perhaps he could try writing to them?  They might have some ideas.  Interesting to read that apparently CD sales have gone up lately.  Perhaps that might help re availability and price points?  https://www.whathifi.com/best-buys/hi-fi/best-cd-players

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 09:30:51 AM
Quote from: Daverz on January 06, 2023, 08:06:56 AM.
So much for recommending a cheap blu-ray player for playing CDs.  I do see some on Amazon that still have displays and RCA outputs, like the one below, but the obscure brand names don't inspire confidence.  I don't know what the availability is like in Finland.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BL4SKRG/

A used CD player is starting to sound like a better bet.


Thanks about this. Maybe not an unthinkable option, but not an optimal either. There are some similar products at Amazon.de (has to be 230 V model).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 09:38:04 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 06:28:35 AMAfter research the only "affordable" CD-players are cheap products like AUNA AV2-CD509, but going from "luxurious" Philips CD850 to such a cheap player must be quite a drop, perhaps not in sound quality, but in the feel of use

Talk about snake oil! If a "cheap" product does sonically the same thing as a "luxurious" one, why not buy it? Only because one would feel it, not hear it, like a drop?  ;D


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 09:53:46 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 06, 2023, 09:16:48 AMI would suggest that he start checking around for reputable audio stores in his area (might have to travel a bit).  They often have used equipment (either on consignment from customers or have used demo equipment around).  Even if they don't have anything in your friend's price range, a good dealer would make an effort to suggest some places to check and/or models to check out [provided that they are not in the middle of an appointment with someone else].

This article might be of help (There's one there which they talk about for $800.) Or perhaps he could try writing to them?  They might have some ideas.  Interesting to read that apparently CD sales have gone up lately.  Perhaps that might help re availability and price points?  https://www.whathifi.com/best-buys/hi-fi/best-cd-players

PD
He lives near the centrum of Helsinki. Stores are near. They have bought some used CD-players for other use (not the main system) and those players have generated faults quickly. That's why he is done with used players and would want to buy new. It is just crazy that the price jumps from about 100 euros (used) to 400 euros (new) and his budget is in the middle (200-300 euros). He needs a wicked "Black Friday" type deal that sells a 400 euros entry level Denon or similar for 270 euros or something like that. Too bad it's almost a year to the next "Black Friday".

Yes, there seems to be a CD revival following the vinyl revival. I have been anticipating it as long as people have been saying CD is dying away. Physical media doesn't die just like that. CD is a REALLY good music format. Maybe manufacturers should start introducing models at 200-300 euros "entry level" price range again?

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 10:00:17 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 09:38:04 AMTalk about snake oil! If a "cheap" product does sonically the same thing as a "luxurious" one, why not buy it? Only because one would feel it, not hear it, like a drop?  ;D

The sound quality isn't the issue. Digital audio technology has matured to the point were a $10 DAC gives totally transparent sound. The issue is for how long does it take until the unit develops issues, in other words build quality.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 08:27:51 AMI think that everyone is entitled to spend their lawfully acquired money in whatever way they see fit as long as they do no harm to other people. Of course I'd prefer anyone to spend it wisely and even altruistically, but there is no way to translate this preference into reality.

Well I'd like to spend my money for example on a region B Blu-ray of Michael Haneke's movie "Piano Teacher" with English or/and Finnish subtitles. Add old Pink Panther Movies to that for a start. I can't do that, because nobody (well the copyright owners in this case) are offering those to be bought.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 10:09:16 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 10:00:17 AMThe sound quality isn't the issue. Digital audio technology has matured to the point were a $10 DAC gives totally transparent sound. The issue is for how long does it take until the unit develops issues, in other words build quality.

Does anyone today really expect a product, be it a car, a CD player or an automated laundry machine to last more than a few years after its warranty expires? Especially when most of them or at least most of their parts are usually "Made in China"? Especially when built-in obsolescence has been around for quite some time? I doubt that a $10 DAC, if handled and taken care of properly, is less reliable than a 500 Euro Philips CD player. They are both designed to last only so many years. All the more reason to go for cheap rather than luxurious if one is not an audiophile.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 10:12:21 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 10:08:11 AMWell I'd like to spend my money for example on a region B Blu-ray of Michael Haneke's movie "Piano Teacher" with English or/and Finnish subtitles. Add old Pink Panther Movies to that for a start. I can't do that, because nobody (well the copyright owners in this case) are offering those to be bought.

Then you have two options: save the money hoping one day they will become available, or spending them on something else. Either way, it's your own decision about what to do with your own money. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 10:13:21 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 10:09:16 AMDoes anyone today really expect a product, be it a car, a CD player or an automated laundry machine to last more than a few years after its warranty expires? Especially when most of them or at least most of their parts are usually "Made in China"? Especially when built-in obsolescence has been around for quite some time? I doubt that a $10 DAC, if handled and taken care of properly, is less reliable than a 500 Euro Philips CD player. They are both designed to last only so many years. All the more reason to go for cheap rather than luxurious if one is not an audiophile.

Buying cheap crap all the time is so wasteful. We need to change it for ecological reasons.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 10:18:13 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 10:12:21 AMThen you have two options: save the money hoping one day they will become available, or spending them on something else. Either way, it's your own decision about what to do with your own money. 

If everything possible was available, I truly could make my own 100 % decision about what to do with my own money. That's not the case. I make the decisions within what is available, which is decided by other people.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 10:19:17 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 10:13:21 AMBuying cheap crap all the time is so wasteful.

I have fully functional cheap crap that I bought 10 years ago. That is hardly "all the time".

As an aside, I bought my Hyundai Accent in 2004, at which time most people considered it cheap Korean crap. Twenty-two years later it runs as smooth as back then, while many of those people have long since replaced their Mercedeses, BMWs and Fords because they were sick and tired of investing into repairing them every two years or even less.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 10:21:01 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 10:18:13 AMI make the decisions within what is available, which is decided by other people.

Welcome to the real world.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 10:38:32 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 10:19:17 AMI have fully functional cheap crap that I bought 10 years ago. That is hardly "all the time".
You know it today that the "crap" lasted 10 years, but you didn't know it when you bought it. That's why you calculate the risk level when you think about buying something. Also, I am not buying a CD-player here! I am only helping another person and it is HIS MONEY and HIS decision.

I am interested about the "gap" in the 200-300 euros range with CD-players so I brought this up.

Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 10:19:17 AMAs an aside, I bought my Hyundai Accent in 2004, at which time most people considered it cheap Korean crap. Twenty-two years later it runs as smooth as back then, while many of those people have long since replaced their Mercedeses, BMWs and Fords because they were sick and tired of investing into repairing them every two years or even less.

Congratulations!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 10:49:21 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 10:38:32 AMYou know it today that the "crap" lasted 10 years, but you didn't know it when you bought it. That's why you calculate the risk level when you think about buying something.

Ten years ago I had the alternative of buying cheap crap or not buying anything at all because of financial constraints. I didn't calculate any risk level, I just went for the only affordable option.

Nowadays I'm wiser: I know from experience that "cheap crap" is quite reliable, so I still go for it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 10:50:33 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 10:38:32 AMCongratulations!

Actually, congratulations to Hyundai Motors Company engineers and workers! Splendid job, gentlemen!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on January 18, 2023, 11:27:21 AM
In my new residence the HVAC system is rather noisy and the whooshing noise is just loud enough to interfere with listening with my favorite open ear headphones (Beyerdynamic T1). I also have closed back headphones (Denon AH-D2000, Sennheiser HD-280 pro) which I will try but I think noise canceling headphones will be necessary. Can anyone recommend noise canceling headphones which give an "audiophile" experience. I have the previous generation Bose headphones which work with a wired connection (quiet comfort 25) and Sony WH-1000XM4 headphones, which have Bluetooth connection. Another option is Apple AirPods Max (full size ear covering noise canceling headphones).

I'm wondering if people have experience with these, or if there are options that are preferable.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 18, 2023, 05:35:50 PM
Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2023, 10:49:21 AMNowadays I'm wiser: I know from experience that "cheap crap" is quite reliable, so I still go for it.

Devices of today can be "hopeless." My new cheap Blu-ray-player worked well for maybe 5 months, but now RESETS itself maybe every third day clearing all the "apps such as Youtube" and restoring factory defaults so that I have to set up the damn machine over and over again! Hopeless crap! 

These devices have mechanical, electronic (hardware) and software sides. Software side seems to be the most vulnerable. So many bugs! We consumers are BETA-testers without pay!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on January 18, 2023, 07:27:29 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 18, 2023, 05:35:50 PMDevices of today can be "hopeless." My new cheap Blu-ray-player worked well for maybe 5 months, but now RESETS itself maybe every third day clearing all the "apps such as Youtube" and restoring factory defaults so that I have to set up the damn machine over and over again! Hopeless crap! 

These devices have mechanical, electronic (hardware) and software sides. Software side seems to be the most vulnerable. So many bugs! We consumers are BETA-testers without pay!

My guess is 99% chance it is a hardware fault, perhaps defective nonvolatile memory and the firmware performs a reset when a fault is detected, or  by perhaps a faulty power supply, where power dips have a similar effect.

Mostly I find myself hit by incompatibility of old hardware, like a ten year old monitor that works fine but only has video input formats that no one remembers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 19, 2023, 02:31:06 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on January 18, 2023, 07:27:29 PMMy guess is 99% chance it is a hardware fault, perhaps defective nonvolatile memory and the firmware performs a reset when a fault is detected, or  by perhaps a faulty power supply, where power dips have a similar effect.

Mostly I find myself hit by incompatibility of old hardware, like a ten year old monitor that works fine but only has video input formats that no one remembers.

Whatever the problem is there is nothing I can do about it (fix) other than buying a new Blu-ray player and hope it is better. Otherwise the player works nicely, so I am reluctant to get a new one at this point. I bought this one because my old region free Cambridge Audio player that cost me an arm and a leg (about 6 times more than this new one) can't play some newer discs (absolutely crazy! Of course a working Blu-ray player should be able to play any Blu-ray disc!)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 19, 2023, 04:38:50 AM
Just ordered this soundbar for my office under the Television.

Sennheiser-ambeo-sb01-soundbar-max
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 19, 2023, 10:30:22 PM
That's an interesting beast, Harry.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 19, 2023, 10:34:25 PM
Quote from: Valentino on January 19, 2023, 10:30:22 PMThat's an interesting beast, Harry.

Yes it is rather, and it sounds the works. Not stepping on anyone's toes, but this is the best soundbar I ever heard, better as some stand alone systems double the price. I had it on loan for a week and was cob smacked.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 20, 2023, 02:23:00 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 19, 2023, 10:34:25 PMYes it is rather, and it sounds the works. Not stepping on anyone's toes, but this is the best soundbar I ever heard, better as some stand alone systems double the price. I had it on loan for a week and was cob smacked.

I hope that it works well for you.  I just googled it and looked at some of the reviews.  Some of the people at this site complain of technical issues and the soundbar not lasting well.

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-LeOLCOf6obV/p_143AMBEOSB/Sennheiser-AMBEO-Soundbar-Max.html?awcr=77103432855766&awdv=c&awkw=sennheiser+ambeo+soundbar&awmt=e&awnw=s&awat=&awug=103449&msclkid=a18d0fb42fab183b2a316c7e59a7e93e

Finger's crossed for you!

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 25, 2023, 02:47:02 PM
I'm fed up with all of the problems I've had with my Cambridge Audio streamer.  I bought the latest Bluesound Node, and it is so much faster and more fluid that I'll be selling the Cambridge Audio.  I also like that in addition to Qobuz (the service I use), it also has native support for Idagio if I want to jump ship.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 25, 2023, 02:48:45 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2023, 09:30:51 AMThanks about this. Maybe not an unthinkable option, but not an optimal either. There are some similar products at Amazon.de (has to be 230 V model).

Sony still makes dvd/cd players with displays.  Should cost sub-50 euros.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 25, 2023, 03:03:12 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on January 18, 2023, 11:27:21 AMI'm wondering if people have experience with these, or if there are options that are preferable.

You are right that Bose and Sony have the best.  Those Sony's are MUDDY (I had the previous gen, the WM3).  Maybe try Bose.  Neither will sound amazing.  But the ones that offer audiophile quality sound (Beyer, ATH, AKG, Senn) have lousy noise cancelling and are overpriced.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 25, 2023, 04:09:30 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 25, 2023, 02:48:45 PMSony still makes dvd/cd players with displays.  Should cost sub-50 euros.

You mean DVP-SR760H?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on January 25, 2023, 08:20:04 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 25, 2023, 03:03:12 PMYou are right that Bose and Sony have the best.  Those Sony's are MUDDY (I had the previous gen, the WM3).  Maybe try Bose.  Neither will sound amazing.  But the ones that offer audiophile quality sound (Beyer, ATH, AKG, Senn) have lousy noise cancelling and are overpriced.

I don't find the Sony muddy, must not quite as transparent as my favorite headphones. But the ambient noise definitely degrades the listening experience below the Bose, Sony or Apple active noise canceling headphones.

I need to spend a little more time experimenting, and decide whether the closed back headphones I have are sufficient (I have the Sennheiser 280's, which quite good considering the low price, the Denon, and an older closed back Beyerdynamic).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on January 26, 2023, 12:56:39 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on January 25, 2023, 08:20:04 PMI don't find the Sony muddy, must not quite as transparent as my favorite headphones. But the ambient noise definitely degrades the listening experience below the Bose, Sony or Apple active noise canceling headphones.

I need to spend a little more time experimenting, and decide whether the closed back headphones I have are sufficient (I have the Sennheiser 280's, which quite good considering the low price, the Denon, and an older closed back Beyerdynamic).

The 280s are seriously underrated. Despite only being 64ohms, a powerful amp brings out the best in them. They are used as monitors in a number of top recording studios and having owned a pair I can understand why. They have a very neutral sound signature and this is a bit off putting for many but for classical music it's a plus.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 26, 2023, 01:02:37 AM
I have a Bluos Node 2i streamer and made my first steps in streaming content. The experience was positive, and now I seek a streamer to insert in my HR system, and would very much like to invite suggestions which way to go. The Bluos Node is a fine streamer, but not fit for HR.
So.......? I myself was thinking of a NAIM UNITI ATOM HDMI, roon implemented.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 01:28:19 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 26, 2023, 01:02:37 AMThe Bluos Node is a fine streamer, but not fit for higher regions.

How much "higher regions" does the Netherlands have?  :D

Quote from: Harry on January 26, 2023, 01:02:37 AMSo.......?

Sorry, I can't help you in this Harry. I know nothing about streamers and I have never used them myself. I am an old-fashioned CD guy.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 26, 2023, 01:33:46 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 01:28:19 AMSorry, I can't help you. I know nothing about streamers and I have never used them myself. I am an old-fashioned CD guy.

I am too Poju, but if one has landed as I have with thousands of CD'S, "out of pure necessity", and of playing all what I have already I have to limit the CD'S purchases to a minimum. So a streamer would greatly help in this :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 02:27:50 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 26, 2023, 01:33:46 AMI am too Poju, but if one has landed as I have with thousands of CD'S, "out of pure necessity", and of playing all what I have already I have to limit the CD'S purchases to a minimum. So a streamer would greatly help in this :)

That is a valid point there Harry. I don't have similar problems. I own about 2000 CDs (I know, pathetic for you but not for me) and I feel that is a lot of music. My CD purchases are already limited by how much money I can allocate to this hobby and how much I need to explore new music. 20 years ago I wanted to listen to music ALL THE TIME! From the moment I woke up in the morning to listening to music in bed to get sleep better. I even wanted to listen to several pieces of music at the same time, which is impossible. I really wanted to listen to say Bach and some techno music at the same time! I was that hungry for music! Nowadays it is very different. I like silence most of the time and I listen to music maybe just 2 hours a day. That's about 700 hours a year. So, it would take me about 3 years to listen to every CD in my collection. Nowadays I am asking myself, how much more Weinberg or Liszt do I need?

I do stream music, but it is with my computer using free Spotify with adds. It is for exploring stuff (if I find something I really like, I will try to get the CD). Some music isn't even released on CD (CD was never big in the genre of underground electronic dance music and nowadays that kind music is released most of the time only as digital files/vinyl). So, if I want to listen to the latest tracks by Jonny L, I need Spotify for that.

Instead of listening to music, I watch tons of Youtube videos. It's as if the "stuff" that I am really interested in is on Youtube. Domotro's crazy math videos, Librarian's GMOD explorations, Michael Lambert's rants about Brexit, HailHeidi's reactions to videos demonstrating how much the US sucks at everything, Eigenchris' videos about spinnors, Gio Bozz's videos about life in Sodankylä, Kane Pixels' epic backrooms videos, Dan Bell's dead malls videos, Jen Murray's reactions to Bond-movies, all the music theory channels, all the political channels, all the funny cute animal channels, the idiots at work videos... in the past I thought the world of classical music is endless, but then came Youtube and said "Hold my beer..." If somedays Youtube ends, I might really need music again in my life. At the moment it's just a "break" from all those Youtube videos...

You didn't provide us information about what you mean by "higher regions". Hopefully you at least got my friendly joke. I have nothing against the Netherlands. I have been to Amsterdam 20 years ago in a conference and I consider the Netherlands one of the 10 best countries in the World to live in.  ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 26, 2023, 02:34:15 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 02:27:50 AMThat is a valid point there Harry. I don't have similar problems. I own about 2000 CDs (I know, pathetic for you but not for me) and I feel that is a lot of music. My CD purchases are already limited by how much money I can allocate to this hobby and how much I need to explore new music. 20 years ago I wanted to listen to music ALL THE TIME! From the moment I woke up in the morning to listening to music in bed to get sleep better. I even wanted to listen to several pieces of music at the same time, which is impossible. I really wanted to listen to say Bach and some techno music at the same time! I was that hungry for music! Nowadays it is very different. I like silence most of the time and I listen to music maybe just 2 hours a day. That's about 700 hours a year. So, it would take me about 3 years to listen to every CD in my collection. Nowadays I am asking myself, how much more Weinberg or Liszt do I need?

I do stream music, but it is with my computer using free Spotify with adds. It is for exploring stuff (if I find something I really like, I will try to get the CD). Some music isn't even released on CD (CD was never big in the genre of underground electronic dance music and nowadays that kind music is released most of the time only as digital files/vinyl). So, if I want to listen to the latest tracks by Jonny L, I need Spotify for that.

Instead of listening to music, I watch tons of Youtube videos. It's as if the "stuff" that I am really interested in is on Youtube. Domotro's crazy math videos, Librarian's GMOD explorations, Michael Lambert's rants about Brexit, HailHeidi's reactions to videos demonstrating how much the US sucks at everything, Eigenchris' videos about spinnors, Gio Bozz's videos about life in Sodankylä, Kane Pixels' epic backrooms videos, Dan Bell's dead malls videos, Jen Murray's reactions to Bond-movies, all the music theory channels, all the political channels, all the funny cute animal channels, the idiots at work videos... in the past I thought the world of classical music is endless, but then came Youtube and said "Hold my beer..." If somedays Youtube ends, I might really need music again in my life. At the moment it's just a "break" from all those Youtube videos...

You didn't provide us information about what you mean by "higher regions". Hopefully you at least got my friendly joke. I have nothing against the Netherlands. I have been to Amsterdam 20 years ago in a conference and I consider the Netherlands one of the 10 best countries in the World to live in.  ;)

What I meant Poju is a High Res streamer, plus what options I have in terms of software, like Roon.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 26, 2023, 03:36:18 AM
Ah! Streamers: there's a topic. I'm not sure what to make of it. I'm not even sure whether I presently have a "streamer" or not.

Follow my "Feanor's Stereo Configuration" link and you can see what I've got.  Is my Windows 10 computer a streamer?  I can "stream" music from my 4000-odd ripped CD collection residing on my NAS device.  I also can stream via that computer CBC Music (https://www.cbc.ca/listen/cbc-music-playlists)'s large selection of preprogrammed playlists in many genres as I occasionally do.

Of course I could access Qobuz or the like using my Windows computer:  I don't see why or how an purpose-made stream would help. I don't presently use Qobuz, etc., mainly because I want to avoid monthly access fees but also because I find searching for Classical music I might want to listen to awkward using their search engines.

I don't know what if anything I should do improve my listening experience.  (BTW, I don't listen to music all day and in every room in my home, which is a thing some want to do.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 03:45:36 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 26, 2023, 02:34:15 AMWhat I meant Poju is a High Res streamer, plus what options I have in terms of software.

Oh, not region, but resolution! Well, I don't know if I can convince you Harry, but you or anyone else doesn't need high resolution audio, because it doesn't offer any audible improvements. If a high resolution file sounds "better" than a CD-quality or high bitrate lossy file, it is because it is made of a different master, something that is done deliberably to create audible differences between file formats and justify charging more money for high resolution music. People fall into this "scam" easily because is it so intuitive. Of course more bits means more accuracy, right? Blu-rays look much better than DVDs, and 4K discs look a little better than Blu-rays, so obviously High resolution audio sounds better than CD-quality, right? No, it doesn't, because CD-quality is already as good as 8K video. It is all music consumers need and then some. Higher resolution formats are only needed/beneficial in studios in music production for technical reasons just like a car needs a big factory building to be manufactured.

Sample rate doesn't dictate the accuracy of signals. It dictates the highest frequencies you can have. At your age it is a miracle if you hear anything above 16 kHz. So, you "need" a samplerate of 32 kHz + some transition band for anti-alias and reconstruction filtering. Let's make it 3 kHz. That's 35 kHz. CD quality gives you 44.1 kHz. That is 26 % more than what you need, seriously.

Bit depth dictates the noise floor. Every bit lowers the noise floor by 6.0206 dB. Without dithering the noise floor correlates with the signal, because it is quantization distortion. With dithering the noise floor is a few decibels higher, but quantization distortion disappears completely! There is just completely distortion free original signal mixed with a noise floor that doesn't correlate with the signal at all. Signals BELOW the least significant bit can be recorded and they exist with the noise floor partially or completely masked. People say analog signals fade into the noise floor. Well, properly done digital audio does the exact same thing. All we need is to get the noise floor down enough so that people don't hear it. How down is that? A new good vinyl has a dynamic range of about 60 dB (10 bits worth). Human hearing has a dynamic range of about 120-130 dB (from the hearing threshold to the pain threshold), but we can't hear this range at the same time. Our hearing has a dynamic "window" of about 70 dB that moves slowly according to how loud the environment is just like our eyes adjust to bring light and darkness. So, music "needs" about 70 dB of dynamic range and that is why even vinyl has almost enough dynamic range. Let's ad some savety margin to that and we have about 80 dB or about 13 bits of dynamic range. That is what music consumers "need" and it covers the most demanding music in most demanding listening scenarios. CD-quality gives you 16 bits. That's 3 bits (18 dB) of overkill. That's why CD-quality is enough for music consumers and high resolution formats belong to the studios. In fact, AAC 256 VBR lossy format is already quite enough not to mention AAC 320 VBR or similar lossy formats, but if don't want to worry about lossy coding, CD quality FLAC is enough bitrate.

Sound quality doesn't come from high sample rates and bit depths. It comes from performing, recording, producing, mixing and mastering well. Those things are done these days with high resolution formats anyway (at least at 24 bit if not at higher samplerates).

These are not only my "opinions." These are facts said by those who really understand digital audio and aren't earning their living by scamming people with hi-rez audio.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 26, 2023, 03:55:25 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 26, 2023, 03:36:18 AMAh! Streamers: there's a topic. I'm not sure what to make of it. I'm not even sure whether I presently have a "streamer" or not.

Follow my "Feanor's Stereo Configuration" link and you can see what I've got.  Is my Windows 10 computer a streamer?  I can "stream" music from my 4000-odd ripped CD collection residing on my NAS device.  I also can stream via that computer CBC Music (https://www.cbc.ca/listen/cbc-music-playlists)'s large selection of preprogrammed playlists in many genres as I occasionally do.

Of course I could access Qobuz or the like using my Windows computer:  I don't see why or how an purpose-made stream would help. I don't presently use Qobuz, etc., mainly because I want to avoid monthly access fees but also because I find searching for Classical music I might want to listen to awkward using their search engines.

I don't know what if anything I should do improve my listening experience.  (BTW, I don't listen to music all day and in every room in my home, which is a thing some want to do.)

Sort of yes. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 04:04:33 AM
I appreciate your "like" for my post about hi-rez audio Harry.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 26, 2023, 04:07:34 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 04:04:33 AMI appreciate your "like" for my post about hi-rez audio Harry.  :)

Well I appreciate the info you provide Poju. I have a different opinion in de case of HR and what it means for my ears, and what should be implemented in my system, but I always enjoy your insightful views.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 26, 2023, 04:08:10 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 03:45:36 AMOh, not region, but resolution! Well, I don't know if I can convince you Harry, but you or anyone else doesn't need high resolution audio, because it doesn't offer any audible improvements. If a high resolution file sounds "better" than a CD-quality or high bitrate lossy file, it is because it is made of a different master, something that is done deliberably to create audible differences between file formats and justify charging more money for high resolution music. People fall into this "scam" easily because is it so intuitive. Of course more bits means more accuracy, right? Blu-rays look much better than DVDs, and 4K discs look a little better than Blu-rays, so obviously High resolution audio sounds better than CD-quality, right? No, it doesn't, because CD-quality is already as good as 8K video. It is all music consumers need and then some. Higher resolution formats are only needed/beneficial in studios in music production for technical reasons just like a car needs a big factory building to be manufactured.

Sample rate doesn't dictate the accuracy of signals. It dictates the highest frequencies you can have. At your age it is a miracle if you hear anything above 16 kHz. So, you "need" a samplerate of 32 kHz + some transition band for anti-alias and reconstruction filtering. Let's make it 3 kHz. That's 35 kHz. CD quality gives you 44.1 kHz. That is 26 % more than what you need, seriously.

Bit depth dictates the noise floor. Every bit lowers the noise floor by 6.0206 dB. Without dithering the noise floor correlates with the signal, because it is quantization distortion. With dithering the noise floor is a few decibels higher, but quantization distortion disappears completely! There is just completely distortion free original signal mixed with a noise floor that doesn't correlate with the signal at all. Signals BELOW the least significant bit can be recorded and they exist with the noise floor partially or completely masked. People say analog signals fade into the noise floor. Well, properly done digital audio does the exact same thing. All we need is to get the noise floor down enough so that people don't hear it. How down is that? A new good vinyl has a dynamic range of about 60 dB (10 bits worth). Human hearing has a dynamic range of about 120-130 dB (from the hearing threshold to the pain threshold), but we can't hear this range at the same time. Our hearing has a dynamic "window" of about 70 dB that moves slowly according to how loud the environment is just like our eyes adjust to bring light and darkness. So, music "needs" about 70 dB of dynamic range and that is why even vinyl has almost enough dynamic range. Let's ad some savety margin to that and we have about 80 dB or about 13 bits of dynamic range. That is what music consumers "need" and it covers the most demanding music in most demanding listening scenarios. CD-quality gives you 16 bits. That's 3 bits (18 dB) of overkill. That's why CD-quality is enough for music consumers and high resolution formats belong to the studios. In fact, AAC 256 VBR lossy format is already quite enough not to mention AAC 320 VBR or similar lossy formats, but if don't want to worry about lossy coding, CD quality FLAC is enough bitrate.

Sound quality doesn't come from high sample rates and bit depths. It comes from performing, recording, producing, mixing and mastering well. Those things are done these days with high resolution formats anyway (at least at 24 bit if not at higher samplerates).

These are not only my "opinions." These are facts said by those who really understand digital audio and aren't earning their living by scamming people with hi-rez audio.

Thanks for the detailed and clearly-written explanation, Poju.

I think this should settle the matter once and for all, coming as it does from a professional acoustics engineer whose record contains publications in peer-reviewed scientific journals.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 04:31:24 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 26, 2023, 04:08:10 AMThanks for the detailed and clearly-written explanation, Poju.

You are welcome! I have written these kinds of posts for years on various internet forums, so that might explain the "clearly-written" part.

Quote from: Florestan on January 26, 2023, 04:08:10 AMI think this should settle the matter once and for all, coming as it does from a professional acoustics engineer whose record contains publications in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

Well, these kind of posts don't settle things for everybody. I was sceptical about being able to convince Harry, and I was right about that it seems. Some people are convinced by these posts and have realized how hi-rez is "waste of money/storage space" and have moved back to "CD-quality." It has taken years for myself too to fully understand these things and admit that CD-quality is kind of the end point for music consumers, and there is nothing "better" beyond that. On the other hand it is great that consumer audio has achieved perfection (music format-wise) in the 80's or maybe in the 90's if we consider the quality of DACs and so on. There is still room for improvement on other areas of audio such as speakers, headphones and room acoustics. Those are the main areas were perfection hasn't been achieved at all.

I don't expect to convert everybody, but some people here and there might convert. It is up to me how much I "hone" my message and present if respectfully without insulting other people turning them away. Also, I don't expert fast results. I hope I can insert a "seed" to the mind of people and in time that seed might grow and lead to change of mind. Maybe that happens to Harry, maybe it doesn't. I am just trying to help him save a little bit money and make life easier. I have zero financial reason myself to speak about this. I feel morally obligated to speak up instead of keeping my knowledge and understanding to myself.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 04:42:02 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 26, 2023, 04:07:34 AMWell I appreciate the info you provide Poju. I have a different opinion in de case of HR and what it means for my ears, and what should be implemented in my system, but I always enjoy your insightful views.

Thanks Harry, and it is all fine. How you use your money is your own business.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 26, 2023, 04:45:54 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 04:31:24 AMYou are welcome! I have written these kinds of posts for years on various internet forums, so that might explain the "clearly-written" part.

Well, these kind of posts don't settle things for everybody. I was sceptical about being able to convince Harry, and I was right about that it seems. Some people are convinced by these posts and have realized how hi-rez is "waste of money/storage space" and have moved back to "CD-quality." It has taken years for myself too to fully understand these things and admit that CD-quality is kind of the end point for music consumers, and there is nothing "better" beyond that. On the other hand it is great that consumer audio has achieved perfection (music format-wise) in the 80's or maybe in the 90's if we consider the quality of DACs and so on. There is still room for improvement on other areas of audio such as speakers, headphones and room acoustics. Those are the main areas were perfection hasn't been achieved at all.

I don't expect to convert everybody, but some people here and there might convert. It is up to me how much I "hone" my message and present if respectfully without insulting other people turning them away. Also, I don't expert fast results. I hope I can insert a "seed" to the mind of people and in time that seed might grow and lead to change of mind. Maybe that happens to Harry, maybe it doesn't. I am just trying to help him save a little bit money and make life easier. I have zero financial reason myself to speak about this. I feel morally obligated to speak up instead of keeping my knowledge and understanding to myself.

Actually, one doesn't have to have a degree in acoustics engineering. Basic high-school biology and physics will do. Besides, I'm pretty sure that in a blind test nobody, and I mean nobody, would be able to tell the difference between CD-quality and hi-res quality, all other variables being equal. Heck, blind tests have proven beyond dispute that most people weren't even able to tell the difference between mp3 and FLAC, all other variables being equal.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 26, 2023, 04:58:06 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 26, 2023, 04:45:54 AMActually, one doesn't have to have a degree in acoustics engineering. Basic high-school biology and physics will do.

Audiophilia has nothing to do with science; audiophilia is about marketing.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 26, 2023, 05:00:21 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 26, 2023, 04:45:54 AMActually, one doesn't have to have a degree in acoustics engineering. Basic high-school biology and physics will do. Besides, I'm pretty sure that in a blind test nobody, and I mean nobody, would be able to tell the difference between CD-quality and hi-res quality, all other variables being equal. Heck, blind tests have proven beyond dispute that most people weren't even able to tell the difference between mp3 and FLAC, all other variables being equal.

Well I can!


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on January 26, 2023, 08:06:07 AM
I am not surprised that there is a small but perceptible difference between CD resolution and high resolution because your equipment will typically use a different signal chain when the resolution changes. When streaming FLAC files from my computer I first had a setting that by default converted everything to 96kHz/24bit for Digital audio output and when I switched to a setting that let the media player set the output rate to match the media being played it sounded slightly different, presumably because the computers algorithm for upsampling from 44.1kHz to 96kHz was not identical to the DAC's algorithm for upsampling 44.1kHz to its internal native resolution. If I paid $10k for the 96kHz/24bit setting I could probably convince myself that "different" was "better."
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 09:22:30 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 26, 2023, 04:45:54 AMActually, one doesn't have to have a degree in acoustics engineering.
I don't recommend degree in acoustics engineering for anyone. There's very little job opportunities for acoustics engineers and other branches of engineering are quite different making it difficult for acoustic engineers to get other kind of engineering jobs.

I was an idiot getting myself a degree in acoustics engineering. Instead I should have gone to HVAC engineering or (game) coding or things like that offering tons of job opportunities, but it is what it is. I made these "career plans" in a time when university degree in engineering almost guaranteed a well-paying job. The world has changed dramatically since, and I am paying a big price for my mistakes decades ago when I knew nothing about anything.

Quote from: Florestan on January 26, 2023, 04:45:54 AMBasic high-school biology and physics will do.

To some extent, except few pupils really learn this stuff in school or remember anything about it afterwards. Digital audio contains mathematical aspects that are beyond high-school science. Even many highly educated people struggle with these things. One example is the temporal resolution of digital audio. Laymen think the temporal resolution of CD-audio in 1/44100 s = 0.000022676 s. This is completely wrong, because we can move the wave in time less than the time period between sample points. This happens by changing the phase of the signal. This results in sample data that is different.

example1.png

In this example we have a 1 kHz sine wave sampled at 44.1 kHz. The lower version is the upper delayed by 1/4 samples = 0.000005669 resulting in different values for the sample points, but still representing the same sine wave. I could have made the delay only 1/100 samples just as easily, but the difference would have been impossible to see. The equation to calculate temporal resolution 𝞓Tres of digital audio is

𝞓Tres = 1 / ( 2 * 𝞹 * f * N ),

where f is the signal frequency and N is the amount of possible sample values for the signal (e.g. N = 6554 for -20 dB signals at 16 bits). For example for -20 dB sine wave of 2205 Hz at 16 bit the temporal resolution is about 11 ns, which is more than 100 times better than human hearing. As you can see, surprisingly the sample rate itself is not in the equation!! It doesn't matter, if the sample rate was 44.1 kHz or 192 kHz! The resolution in this case is still 11 ns. This is one of the good examples of how unintuitive digital audio can be. bigger bit depth does give much better temporal resolution, but this equation works for digital audio WITHOUT dither and practically all CD-quality audio is dithered. Dither makes the temporal resolution practically infinite. It means that as long as we dither correctly, temporal resolution is not a concern in digital audio, no matter, hi-res or not. 

Quote from: Florestan on January 26, 2023, 04:45:54 AMBesides, I'm pretty sure that in a blind test nobody, and I mean nobody, would be able to tell the difference between CD-quality and hi-res quality, all other variables being equal. Heck, blind tests have proven beyond dispute that most people weren't even able to tell the difference between mp3 and FLAC, all other variables being equal.
Yes, and there are listening tests done indicating this. There is no 100 % proof of it, because these listening tests are statistical in nature (how many time could people choose correctly), but there is near 100 % certainty of it. People who believe in the audible superiority of hi-rez keep defending their view by saying the listening tests cause "pressure" to the listeners and make listening differences harder etc., but the real reason why people claim to hear differences are:

Placebo effect. This is very strong when we listen to sounds. What we think we hear is affected a lot by what we think we should be hearing. All of us may have experienced this effect in interesting ways. For example, if you have a mono button in your audio gear and you have activated it for some reason, but you have forgotten it, you may listen to a stereo recording for minutes before getting a feeling that something is off. When you realize you have been listening to mono sound thinking it is stereo for minutes you laugh at yourself, but that's placebo effect. The belief of listening to stereo sound makes your brain accept mono sound as stereo for minutes before cumulating a feel that something is wrong. My "rule of thumb" is to assume 90 % of differences we hear in audio are due to placebo effect, imagined differences. This explains why differences tend to go away or become much smaller in proper blind listening tests.

Different masters. A high-res file might be masteres differently from a standard-res files. If so, of course people are hearing differences, but the reason is not the resolution. Downsampling the high-res version properly to CD-quality will result in the exact same sound quality.

"Surfing the wave." This is about taking a very quiet part of the signal and amplifying it massively (say 50 dB) to bring out the noise floor to clearly audible levels. A file with bigger bit depth most probably has lower noise floor and wins, but it is a victory that doesn't matter in practise. Who listens to music by turning the volume knob to maximum whenever the music fades into the noise floor? In any practical or sane listening scenario about 13 bits of dynamic range is enough.

Ultrasonic IM distortion Hi-res music may contain strong infrasonic noise not even related to the music that has gone unnoticed in the production due to not be audible, but with some audio gear not designed to handle strong ultrasonics may cause intermodulation distortion that generated distortion component to audible frequency range. CD quality audio on the other hand doesn't contain anything above 22 kHz (all of it is filtered to extremely low levels) and such IM distortion doesn't happen. In this sense CD quality audio can actually be purer than high-resolution audio, but this is theoretical rather than practical. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 26, 2023, 09:39:14 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 04:31:24 AMWell, these kind of posts don't settle things for everybody. I was sceptical about being able to convince Harry, and I was right about that it seems. Some people are convinced by these posts and have realized how hi-rez is "waste of money/storage space" and have moved back to "CD-quality." It has taken years for myself too to fully understand these things and admit that CD-quality is kind of the end point for music consumers, and there is nothing "better" beyond that. On the other hand it is great that consumer audio has achieved perfection (music format-wise) in the 80's or maybe in the 90's if we consider the quality of DACs and so on. There is still room for improvement on other areas of audio such as speakers, headphones and room acoustics. Those are the main areas were perfection hasn't been achieved at all.


Nowadays I'm completely unconcerned with resolutions above 16 bit @ 44.1 kHz. If I could actually hear differences at higher rez, I don't care because any improvement would certainly be insignificant.

Perhaps the fact the I'm stone deaf about 9-10 kHz has something to do with how I feel, or maybe it doesn't.

Anyway, far more that resolution of the medium, the quality of the recording & mastering is the bigger determinant of the sound quality we perceive.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 09:44:49 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on January 26, 2023, 08:06:07 AMI am not surprised that there is a small but perceptible difference between CD resolution and high resolution because your equipment will typically use a different signal chain when the resolution changes. When streaming FLAC files from my computer I first had a setting that by default converted everything to 96kHz/24bit for Digital audio output and when I switched to a setting that let the media player set the output rate to match the media being played it sounded slightly different, presumably because the computers algorithm for upsampling from 44.1kHz to 96kHz was not identical to the DAC's algorithm for upsampling 44.1kHz to its internal native resolution. If I paid $10k for the 96kHz/24bit setting I could probably convince myself that "different" was "better."


This is a good point. One has to be careful about what difference we are actually listening.

44.1 kHz to 96 kHz upsampling isn't "trivial."
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on January 26, 2023, 09:46:27 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 26, 2023, 09:39:14 AMAnyway, far more that resolution of the medium, the quality of the recording & mastering is the bigger determinant of the sound quality we perceive.

I would say the original manner of recording is the key. I find many of the old Mercury's more convincing than a lot of state of the art recordings because their very simple setup (three omnidirectional microphones suspended above the orchestra) allowed the sound the be mixed by the hall. Similar considerations for older Decca (tree) and RCA victor recordings. There are wonderful recordings being made today, but there are also recordings made with very refined equipment that sound bad to me because they over engineered (nearing the point of a microphone on every instrument and mixed on a digital console).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 26, 2023, 09:53:54 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 26, 2023, 09:22:30 AMI don't recommend degree in acoustics engineering for anyone. There's very little job opportunities for acoustics engineers and other branches of engineering are quite different making it difficult for acoustic engineers to get other kind of engineering jobs.

I was an idiot getting myself a degree in acoustics engineering. Instead I should have gone to HVAC engineering or (game) coding or things like that offering tons of job opportunities, but it is what it is. I made these "career plans" in a time when university degree in engineering almost guaranteed a well-paying job. The world has changed dramatically since, and I am paying a big price for my mistakes decades ago when I knew nothing about anything.

That's kind of funny, because I got myself a degree in HVAC engineering based on a "plan" which looked sound back then but quickly proved to be not so realistic.

QuoteTo some extent, except few pupils really learn this stuff in school or remember anything about it afterwards. Digital audio contains mathematical aspects that are beyond high-school science.


I'm not talking about the mathematical aspects which are indeed difficult and require calculus. I'm talking about the basics of the human ear and the physical process of hearing: there is a minimal and a maximal threshold of frequencies and intensity, below which the ear perceives nothing and above which it perceives only noise, painful one even, and this physically limited range gets narrower with age. Any audio format which claims they extend this physical range and can make people hear things they cannot physically hear, especially elder people, is bogus.

QuotePlacebo effect. This is very strong when we listen to sounds. What we think we hear is affected a lot by what we think we should be hearing. All of us may have experienced this effect in interesting ways. For example, if you have a mono button in your audio gear and you have activated it for some reason, but you have forgotten it, you may listen to a stereo recording for minutes before getting a feeling that something is off. When you realize you have been listening to mono sound thinking it is stereo for minutes you laugh at yourself, but that's placebo effect. The belief of listening to stereo sound makes your brain accept mono sound as stereo for minutes before cumulating a feel that something is wrong. My "rule of thumb" is to assume 90 % of differences we hear in audio are due to placebo effect, imagined differences. This explains why differences tend to go away or become much smaller in proper blind listening tests.

Of course. Plus, when one has spent $50,000 on a new pair of headphones, the Placebo effect is all the stronger. I'm sure they are really convinced they hear things that hard science says they cannot hear.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 26, 2023, 09:56:25 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on January 26, 2023, 09:46:27 AMI would say the original manner of recording is the key. I find many of the old Mercury's more convincing than a lot of state of the art recordings because their very simple setup (three omnidirectional microphones suspended above the orchestra) allowed the sound the be mixed by the hall. Similar considerations for older Decca (tree) and RCA victor recordings. There are wonderful recordings being made today, but there are also recordings made with very refined equipment that sound bad to me because they over engineered (nearing the point of a microphone on every instrument and mixed on a digital console).

This is a good point as well.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 27, 2023, 03:04:06 AM
Quote from: Holden on January 26, 2023, 12:56:39 AMThe 280s are seriously underrated. Despite only being 64ohms, a powerful amp brings out the best in them. They are used as monitors in a number of top recording studios and having owned a pair I can understand why. They have a very neutral sound signature and this is a bit off putting for many but for classical music it's a plus.

I also remember them having a great seal, which should help in Spotted Horse's case.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 27, 2023, 03:06:45 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 26, 2023, 01:02:37 AMI have a Bluos Node 2i streamer and made my first steps in streaming content. The experience was positive, and now I seek a streamer to insert in my HR system, and would very much like to invite suggestions which way to go. The Bluos Node is a fine streamer, but not fit for HR.
So.......? I myself was thinking of a NAIM UNITI ATOM HDMI, roon implemented.

The Node that I just bought streams hd audio.  Optical out can and does pass hd audio to the dac.  It doesn't have the bandwidth for multichannel hd audio though if that is what you're thinking.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 27, 2023, 03:24:56 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 27, 2023, 03:06:45 AMThe Node that I just bought streams hd audio.  Optical out can and does pass hd audio to the dac.  It doesn't have the bandwidth for multichannel hd audio though if that is what you're thinking.

What I meant was that I fitted Node into my HR system, and the quality did not match my expectations, so I am seeking for an upgrade in that respect.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 27, 2023, 05:52:24 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on January 26, 2023, 09:46:27 AMI would say the original manner of recording is the key. I find many of the old Mercury's more convincing than a lot of state of the art recordings because their very simple setup (three omnidirectional microphones suspended above the orchestra) allowed the sound the be mixed by the hall. Similar considerations for older Decca (tree) and RCA victor recordings. There are wonderful recordings being made today, but there are also recordings made with very refined equipment that sound bad to me because they over engineered (nearing the point of a microphone on every instrument and mixed on a digital console).

Regarding the old Mercury Living Presence recordings, I agree that they are exceptional in terms of capturing the ambience of the actual venues where they were recorded.  I have quite a few of these recordings in CD format.

On the other hand and for various reasons I find the some more contemporary recordings to be at lease as good in most respects (-- I won't say they necessarily capture the actual ambience of their recording venues).  For instances you might check out Grammy Awards for Best Engineered Album, Classical (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammy_Award_for_Best_Engineered_Album,_Classical), for recent years.

I recently purchased 2019 award winner, Boston Symphony Orchestra conducted by Andris Nelsons: Shostakovich, Symphonies 4 & 11.  This possibly the best orchestral sound that I've ever heard on record.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/5139xKAcCwL._AC_.jpg)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 27, 2023, 07:26:13 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 27, 2023, 03:24:56 AMWhat I meant was that I fitted Node into my HR system, and the quality did not match my expectations, so I am seeking for an upgrade in that respect.

Are you using the Node's DAC or an external DAC?  I ask because the external DAC would provide better uplift in SQ than relying on the streamer (apparently the Node has a lousy DAC).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 27, 2023, 07:49:50 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 27, 2023, 07:26:13 AMAre you using the Node's DAC or an external DAC?  I ask because the external DAC would provide better uplift in SQ than relying on the streamer (apparently the Node has a lousy DAC).

I use the DAC of my Quad, which is quite good.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on January 27, 2023, 08:04:15 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 27, 2023, 03:04:06 AMI also remember them having a great seal, which should help in Spotted Horse's case.

I should try them, although my pair is probably 20 years old and getting a bit ratty. There is perhaps a reverse "audiophile" effect, that they are so reasonably priced there is a tendency to underestimate them.

Meanwhile I have been using the Bose Quietcomfort (most recent wired version) and find myself generally satisfied. When warm weather comes there will be no need to run the HVAC at night and I will presumably return to my open headphones.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 28, 2023, 06:43:46 AM
Well I am almost Decided, it will be the Lumin T3 media Streamer, first listening gave me goosebumps when listening. Roon installed. Qubuz and Tidal used as test samples.
Marvelous stuff.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 28, 2023, 06:54:07 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 28, 2023, 06:43:46 AMWell I am almost Decided, it will be the Lumin T3 media Streamer, first listening gave me goosebumps when listening. Roon installed. Qubuz and Tidal used as test samples.
Marvelous stuff.

Cool looking device. Never heard of Lumin brand before. They don't seem to have representation in Finland.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 28, 2023, 06:55:43 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 28, 2023, 06:54:07 AMCool looking device. Never heard of Lumin brand before. They don't seem to have representation on Finland.

Thats true, but google them and you might find out more Poju :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 28, 2023, 07:01:38 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 28, 2023, 06:55:43 AMThats true, but google them and you might find out more Poju :)

I checked and I saw the price.  :o This is CEO audio not for normal people.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 28, 2023, 07:10:15 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 28, 2023, 07:01:38 AMI checked and I saw the price.  :o This is CEO audio not for normal people.

I assure you that I am quite normal Poju.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 28, 2023, 07:29:55 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 28, 2023, 07:10:15 AMI assure you that I am quite normal Poju.

You are certainly not "quite normal." Not only are you better off financially than maybe 95 % of people, but you are also interested in sound quality 1000 times more than "normal" people. You may be normal in other aspects such as what yogurt you eat and what toothpaste you use, but you are not normal when it comes to audio products.

The most I have EVER spent on an audio device is 1.300 euros on NAD T758. I had not much choice because my old 1.000 euros NAD T762 broke for good and NAD T758 was the only option anywhere near my price range having the kind of connectors and features I need. It was a financial hit I had to take. That's "normal" to you.

The most I have spent on an electric device was my first 32" widescreen Panasonic TV in 2001 (1.600 euros). It was the best CRT 32" TV on the market at that point. Back then I was much more optimistic about my financial future.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 28, 2023, 07:35:18 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 28, 2023, 06:43:46 AMWell I am almost Decided, it will be the Lumin T3 media Streamer, first listening gave me goosebumps when listening. Roon installed. Qubuz and Tidal used as test samples.
Marvelous stuff.

Do you live near an audio store?? :o  That was fast!  While you are auditioning it, you might want to check out reviews on the app and also really try everything you could possibly do with it.  Speaking from experience, the app makes or breaks the experience no matter the quality of the hardware.

I looked up reviews, and the exhaustive DSD support is impressive if you have any files of that type.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 28, 2023, 07:39:12 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 28, 2023, 07:29:55 AMThe most I have EVER spent on an audio device is 1.300 euros on NAD T758. I had not much choice because my old 1.000 euros NAD T762 broke for good and NAD T758 was the only option anywhere near my price range having the kind of connectors and features I need. It was a financial hit I had to take. That's "normal" to you.

Just buying audio gear other than a wireless headphone is not normal imo.  Nobody but audiophiles buy amps, dacs, speakers etc. You and Harry are in the same minority group, the only difference is how much your budget is.  The intent is the same.  To have a stereo that provides an exceptional listening experience.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 28, 2023, 07:44:45 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 28, 2023, 07:39:12 AMJust buying audio gear other than a wireless headphone is not normal imo.  Nobody but audiophiles buy amps, dacs, speakers etc. You and Harry are in the same minority group, the only difference is how much your budget is.  The intent is the same.  To have a stereo that provides an exceptional listening experience.

I admit that even my audio purchases aren't "normal" to many people... ...but at least most people could spent as much as I spend IF they wanted. They just choose to spend their money elsewhere.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 28, 2023, 07:48:18 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 28, 2023, 07:29:55 AMYou are certainly not "quite normal." Not only are you better off financially than maybe 95 % of people, but you are also interested in sound quality 1000 times more than "normal" people. You may be normal in other aspects such as what yogurt you eat and what toothpaste you use, but you are not normal when it comes to audio products.

The most I have EVER spent on an audio device is 1.300 euros on NAD T758. I had not much choice because my old 1.000 euros NAD T762 broke for good and NAD T758 was the only option anywhere near my price range having the kind of connectors and features I need. It was a financial hit I had to take. That's "normal" to you.
...

There, there: we must cut Harry some slack.  He is quite normal for a well-heeled audiophile.  Such only moderately high-end gear as the Lumin T3 is a normal sort of thing for that crowd.

I'm an audiophile myself but not a well-heeled one, accordingly I am very much constrained to seek high value products rather than "high-end" ones.  An example would be my Topping D90 DAC, (see ASR review (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-d90-balanced-usb-dac-review.10519/)), not a cheap DAC but not anything regarded as high-end.  But with all distortion products below -130 dB it's doubtful what substantial sound improvements are possible.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 28, 2023, 07:53:16 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 28, 2023, 07:29:55 AMYou are certainly not "quite normal." Not only are you better off financially than maybe 95 % of people, but you are also interested in sound quality 1000 times more than "normal" people. You may be normal in other aspects such as what yogurt you eat and what toothpaste you use, but you are not normal when it comes to audio products.

The most I have EVER spent on an audio device is 1.300 euros on NAD T758. I had not much choice because my old 1.000 euros NAD T762 broke for good and NAD T758 was the only option anywhere near my price range having the kind of connectors and features I need. It was a financial hit I had to take. That's "normal" to you.

The most I have spent on an electric device was my first 32" widescreen Panasonic TV in 2001 (1.600 euros). It was the best CRT 32" TV on the market at that point. Back then I was much more optimistic about my financial future.

To correct you a little though, Poju, not until I was 40 I had enough money to buy such stuff, and that is my only hobby, so maybe I might be forgiven. When I buy new stuff I distribute my old expensive equipment to those that are not able to spend that kind of money. They are normal people like I am. Please refrain from mention this all the time, I am not different from you. The fact that I have more money does not make me less normal.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 28, 2023, 09:21:28 AM
    I'm thinking about upgrading my old Sony AVR to decent budget model from one of the usual suspects, namely Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo or Pioneer.

    Marantz is overpriced and their lowest price model got a bad review which moved me to tears. You're paying for a once great name.

    I lean slightly towards Onkyo because of the amps.

    The most important consideration is that I not choose the 17 pounder at the bottom. Every company makes one or more of these. This is a far more important indication of quality than power rating. You can pay more and get much less.

    It goes like this. AVRs need a heavy transformer to feed lots of power to several channels. Onkyo has several budget models that weighs 18.1-18.5 lbs. Above them models weight at least 21 lbs.

    The price doesn't tell you where the serious range starts, the weight does. One model that sells for a mere $499 weighs 21.7 lbs. This, not any of the other of the low priced models is the optimal budget choice.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 28, 2023, 09:52:34 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 28, 2023, 07:53:16 AMTo correct you a little though, Poju, not until I was 40 I had enough money to buy such stuff, and that is my only hobby, so maybe I might be forgiven. When I buy new stuff I distribute my old expensive equipment to those that are not able to spend that kind of money. They are normal people like I am. Please refrain from mention this all the time, I am not different from you. The fact that I have more money does not make me less normal.

I'm sorry Harry, I didn't know how important it is for you to be normal.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 28, 2023, 09:58:36 AM
Quote from: drogulus on January 28, 2023, 09:21:28 AMThe price doesn't tell you where the serious range starts, the weight does.

This is a good point. My NAD T758 is 15.4 kg / 34.2 lbs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 28, 2023, 10:20:29 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 28, 2023, 09:58:36 AMThis is a good point. My NAD T758 is 15.4 kg / 34.2 lbs.

     Yup, there's no cheating on the ability to produce gobs of clean power.

     Once you clear the power hurdle you can evaluate other factors.

     I only use the pure or direct mode for both music and video. Many AVR reviews lean heavily on the kind of room correction used. That doesn't affect me.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 28, 2023, 03:05:29 PM
You don't need a lot of weight to get a lot of clean power with modern switching power supplies like those in Ncore and Purifi amps.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 28, 2023, 10:43:19 PM
This. Properly designed smps is cleaner power, less space, less weight, less heat.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 29, 2023, 07:08:19 AM
Quote from: Daverz on January 28, 2023, 03:05:29 PMYou don't need a lot of weight to get a lot of clean power with modern switching power supplies like those in Ncore and Purifi amps.

     You do in a budget AVR. You can have quite good amps in a budget AVR, but they won't be properly designed. (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)

     If I wanted to use the pre outs for more power I'd probably get a properly designed amp like maybe a QSC.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 29, 2023, 07:48:59 AM
    On another audio front I'm thinking about getting a headphone amp/DAC that I'd use with my PC. The one I have in mind is the Essence HDACC II-4K.

    (https://www.essenceelectrostatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Essence-HDACC-II-4K-front-1.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 29, 2023, 11:04:41 AM
Quote from: drogulus on January 29, 2023, 07:48:59 AMOn another audio front I'm thinking about getting a headphone amp/DAC that I'd use with my PC. The one I have in mind is the Essence HDACC II-4K.

    (https://www.essenceelectrostatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Essence-HDACC-II-4K-front-1.jpg)

Why do you need a 4k hdmi device just to use with a pc?  It looks like a home theater solution.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 29, 2023, 11:07:00 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 28, 2023, 09:52:34 AMI'm sorry Harry, I didn't know how important it is for you to be normal.

He is normal.  Don't be jealous.  At the end of the day, you guys both have great gear for listening to music and enjoy what you have.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 29, 2023, 11:18:03 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 29, 2023, 11:04:41 AMWhy do you need a 4k hdmi device just to use with a pc?  It looks like a home theater solution.

    I might get a universal disk player and use this for SACD decodes. I'd put the player under my PC and do headphone listening there.

    I have another reason to get such a player. I don't actually own a UHD/BD player. My "Chinoppo" doesn't play disks. So with 2 not very expensive pieces of kit I patch holes in my system. The SACD idea is just something to play with.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 29, 2023, 12:18:38 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 29, 2023, 11:07:00 AMHe is normal.

For almost all people in the World spending $4-5k on a streamer is far from normal, but we can of course pretend it is totally normal.

Quote from: DavidW on January 29, 2023, 11:07:00 AMDon't be jealous.

I am not jealous. I don't even use streamers, so why would I be jealous?


Quote from: DavidW on January 29, 2023, 11:07:00 AMAt the end of the day, you guys both have great gear for listening to music and enjoy what you have.

Yeah, I have nothing to complain about the sound quality of my gear, but I have a feeling Harry would find my gear "lacking in quality." 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 29, 2023, 01:42:58 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 29, 2023, 12:18:38 PMFor almost all people in the World spending $4-5k on a streamer is far from normal

This is an objectively accurate statement.  Spending $4-5k on an entire stereo or home theater system is also abnormal.  And that's in the developed world. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: KevinP on January 29, 2023, 02:00:42 PM
Main home: A Marantz receiver, Klipsh tower speakers for stereo, other Klipsh for surround. Also Sonos Ones.

Second home/crash pad: relatively inexpensive Onkyo home theatre set, and neighbours (all co-workers) have complained about that so no point in upgrading.

Oddly, I can only play blu-rays in the second home.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on January 30, 2023, 12:28:48 AM
Normality is overrated in my opinion.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 30, 2023, 03:26:34 AM
Quote from: The new erato on January 30, 2023, 12:28:48 AMNormality is overrated in my opinion.

Yep. It's much cooler to be weird.  :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 30, 2023, 05:26:43 AM
Quote from: The new erato on January 30, 2023, 12:28:48 AMNormality is overrated in my opinion.

And yet some people so desperately want to be seen as normal.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on January 30, 2023, 05:59:57 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 30, 2023, 05:26:43 AMAnd yet some people so desperately want to be seen as normal.

People want to believe that their abnormality is voluntary.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 31, 2023, 07:03:43 AM
This normal or abnormal or raving lunatic will receive the Lumin T3 streamer on Thursday-YAY, and that rimes, or not....
A self made Nuc, by the firm that delivers it, with intel 3 on board which is said to be enough to open the many facilities on Roon without delay, but hey common, Intel 3, that's so outdated and pretty slow I know, too slow for the software and streamer.
Anyway with experience about this?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kontrapunctus on January 31, 2023, 10:13:02 AM
I hope my system doesn't qualify me as "abnormal"! ;) While not exactly humble, it's not as rarefied as some systems here. Regardless, it provides me with great musical joy.

Harbeth 40.2 speakers
Sennheiser HD800S headphones
McIntosh C22 pre-amp
McIntosh MC275 power amp
Pro-Ject Signature 10 turntable/ Soundsmith The Voice ES cartridge
Mark Levinson No.5101 SACD player

(I did buy a gently used MC275 and No.5101, so that helped a little with the expense.)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 01, 2023, 08:11:33 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 31, 2023, 07:03:43 AMThis normal or abnormal or raving lunatic will receive the Lumin T3 streamer on Thursday-YAY, and that rimes, or not....
A self made Nuc, by the firm that delivers it, with intel 3 on board which is said to be enough to open the many facilities on Roon without delay, but hey common, Intel 3, that's so outdated and pretty slow I know, too slow for the software and streamer.
Anyway with experience about this?

An i3 on a laptop running Windows would be slow.  On a streamer running a stripped down OS should be pretty zippy.  The 3 doesn't refer to age btw, just performance tier.  Usually you would want a cpu like that in a streamer because it will run cool and quiet and still deliver the necessary performance.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 01, 2023, 08:19:57 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 01, 2023, 08:11:33 AMAn i3 on a laptop running Windows would be slow.  On a streamer running a stripped down OS should be pretty zippy.  The 3 doesn't refer to age btw, just performance tier.  Usually you would want a cpu like that in a streamer because it will run cool and quiet and still deliver the necessary performance.

Yes you are right of course, I had to many hot Toddies when I wrote that. Apologies are in order!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 02, 2023, 03:16:40 AM
My new tonearm, ordered 15th August, arrived earlier this week. An Alfred Bokrand (Ortofon) AS-230.

(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/30ac4a84-7827-4e82-ba02-aba2596a045c-jpeg.888617/)

That's Baker/London SO/Barbirolli doing Elgar's Sea Pictures.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 02, 2023, 03:42:24 AM
Quote from: Valentino on February 02, 2023, 03:16:40 AMMy new tonearm, ordered 15th August, arrived earlier this week. An Alfred Bokrand (Ortofon) AS-230.

(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/30ac4a84-7827-4e82-ba02-aba2596a045c-jpeg.888617/)

That's Baker/London SO/Barbirolli doing Elgar's Sea Pictures.
So, how do you like it?  And what about compared to your old arm?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on February 02, 2023, 06:59:33 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 01, 2023, 08:11:33 AMAn i3 on a laptop running Windows would be slow.  On a streamer running a stripped down OS should be pretty zippy.  The 3 doesn't refer to age btw, just performance tier.  Usually you would want a cpu like that in a streamer because it will run cool and quiet and still deliver the necessary performance.

Usually purpose-built devices run a version of Linux.  For one thing it's free.

The Raspberry Pi is a popular streamer device and it uses Linux.  I had one up and running with my NAS upstream and feeding my Topping DAC;  it worked fine with Volumio but I preferred my Windows 10 mini-PC as a streamer.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on February 02, 2023, 07:28:08 AM
Quote from: Valentino on February 02, 2023, 03:16:40 AMMy new tonearm, ordered 15th August, arrived earlier this week. An Alfred Bokrand (Ortofon) AS-230.

(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/30ac4a84-7827-4e82-ba02-aba2596a045c-jpeg.888617/)

That's Baker/London SO/Barbirolli doing Elgar's Sea Pictures.

Congratulations! I have followed with interest via eBay Alfred's musings. I recall that he is running out of Ortofon tonearms to work his magic. Get in before ship has sailed, you have, well done!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 02, 2023, 07:31:27 AM
The Lumin T3 is up and running, the power supply is done by a better and more balanced device, the Nuc is 8th Gen Quad core intel, I 5 processor.
No Windows on it, its just a vehicle for Roon.
Audioquest CAT 5e Ethernet communication cable RJ45-G.
Audioquest XLR plugs "Water".
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 03, 2023, 02:40:50 PM
Quote from: Irons on February 02, 2023, 07:28:08 AMCongratulations! I have followed with interest via eBay Alfred's musings. I recall that he is running out of Ortofon tonearms to work his magic. Get in before ship has sailed, you have, well done!
Are these particularly "vintage" tone arms or new ones that they're having a hard time getting all of the parts for Irons?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on February 04, 2023, 01:52:10 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 03, 2023, 02:40:50 PMAre these particularly "vintage" tone arms or new ones that they're having a hard time getting all of the parts for Irons?

PD

Yes PD they are vintage. I believe it to be the actual arms he has difficulty in locating. More then a refurbishment. If I'm not mistaken he replaces the arm tube, converting a 9" to a 12" tonearm. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 04, 2023, 07:09:55 AM
Quote from: Irons on February 04, 2023, 01:52:10 AMYes PD they are vintage. I believe it to be the actual arms he has difficulty in locating. More then a refurbishment. If I'm not mistaken he replaces the arm tube, converting a 9" to a 12" tonearm. 
Wow, that sounds like quite a big change that he is making to them!

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 05, 2023, 07:52:40 AM
Also bought a Atoll Audio streamer ST 300 signature for my secondary system. Its Roon ready, and fits perfectly with the other Atoll components in this set.

TECHNICAL DATA

Power supply: 30 + 10 + 10 VA
Total of capacitors: 69 000 µF
Output stages: 4 discrete non-feedback stages.
Dynamic: 132 dB
Signal/Noise ratio: 132 dB
Output impedance: 5,6 Ω
Output level: 2,0 Vrms
Distortion at 1 kHz: 0,0004 %
Bandwidth: 5 Hz – 20 kHz
Rising time: 1,5 µs
Digital/analogue converter: 2×Burr-Brown 24 bits/192 kHz
Dimensions: 440×284×95 mm
Weight: 7 Kg



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 06, 2023, 11:35:02 AM
Alfred Bokrand sources vintage Ortofon AS-212 tonearms from (mainly) Telefunken S 500 and S 600 turntables (http://www.tube-classics.de/TC/MyEquipment/Listening/LivingRoom/Telefunken-S500-S600-Ortofon.htm). Those arms were OEM for Telefunken with a longer mast and more widely spaced horizontal bearings than the ordinary AS-212.
He replaces the horizontal and vertical bearings.
He makes a new arm tube, vertical bearing housing, end stub and counterweigts, and adds a new Ortofon/SME/JIS connector, internal Cardas cables and MDIN connector, a new tonearm lift (Jelco) with a copy of the beautiful original Ortofon lever.
He offers his tonearms as Straight (J-bend, AS-) or Banana (like those EMTs of yore, AB-), with P2S of 309 (12"), 230 (10") and 211 (9") mm. He's analogandmore4you on Ebay.

(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/4204ee20-1a98-435d-ab45-975763669ff1-jpeg.890414/)
Open in a new window for true size.

Mine is an AS-230 ("Straight" 230 mm P2S). In the interim I'm using an SME-adapter from E-bay. I'll get a new arm board for Bokrand's own arm mount, which like the rest of his work also is a beautiful piece of craftmanship.
(That's the famous drunken coda of Solti's Rheingold It's the brand new remaster and it sounds magnificent.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 06, 2023, 01:33:32 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on February 02, 2023, 06:59:33 AMUsually purpose-built devices run a version of Linux.  For one thing it's free.

The Raspberry Pi is a popular streamer device and it uses Linux.  I had one up and running with my NAS upstream and feeding my Topping DAC;  it worked fine with Volumio but I preferred my Windows 10 mini-PC as a streamer.

I like to recommend the Raspberry Pi 4 for a streaming device, but they are as rare as hen's teeth these days.  They keep promising that production will return to previous levels, but so far the online shops still don't have them in stock.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on February 07, 2023, 11:29:04 AM

    I ordered a DSD DAC/Amp for my PC, the FiiO JadeAudio KA3.

    (https://www.headfonia.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/dac-fiio-ka3-jade-audio-headfonia-review-12.jpg)

   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mookalafalas on February 11, 2023, 01:41:58 AM
just ordered a pair of Hifiman Arya V3s and an ifi Uno Dac/Amp.

  I do most headphone listening (at work) on a pair of Sennheiser 6XX headphones, which I love, but decided to splurge...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on February 11, 2023, 03:47:55 PM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on February 11, 2023, 01:41:58 AMjust ordered a pair of Hifiman Arya V3s and an ifi Uno Dac/Amp.

  I do most headphone listening (at work) on a pair of Sennheiser 6XX headphones, which I love, but decided to splurge...

I suspect that you'll love the Aryas, especially after the 6XXs. I have the model one down from the Ayras, the Ananda Stealth and they sound superb.

The iFi is very well reviewed. Can I suggest that later on you get a separate amp and use the iFi solely as a DAC - your Arya's will love the extra power.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mookalafalas on February 11, 2023, 04:21:19 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 11, 2023, 03:47:55 PMI suspect that you'll love the Aryas, especially after the 6XXs. I have the model one down from the Ayras, the Ananda Stealth and they sound superb.

The iFi is very well reviewed. Can I suggest that later on you get a separate amp and use the iFi solely as a DAC - your Arya's will love the extra power.

  Thanks for the comments, Holden. I actually have a pair of Sundara's--a couple models down from the Ananda. They're nice, too.  I listen to them through an old Audioengine D1. I anticipate I'll mostly listen to to the Aryas plugged directly into my stereo. I have a Marantz PM6007, CD6007 receiver/CD stack. Reckon I'll do some experimenting once they arrive.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on February 11, 2023, 05:09:24 PM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on February 11, 2023, 04:21:19 PMThanks for the comments, Holden. I actually have a pair of Sundara's--a couple models down from the Ananda. They're nice, too.  I listen to them through an old Audioengine D1. I anticipate I'll mostly listen to to the Aryas plugged directly into my stereo. I have a Marantz PM6007, CD6007 receiver/CD stack. Reckon I'll do some experimenting once they arrive.

I had the Audeze LCD1s which were the Sundaras main competitor for planar cans but they had an issue with the headband cracking so when I sent them back I got an upgrade to the Anandas. It's a pity in some respect as I really liked the unique sound signature of the LCD1s.

My trusty work cans, the Shure SRH840, are starting to show their age so I might replace them with the DCA Aeon Closed X from Drop. While they won't quite match the Anandas they will come close.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mookalafalas on February 11, 2023, 05:45:24 PM
Quote from: Holden on February 11, 2023, 05:09:24 PMI had the Audeze LCD1s which were the Sundaras main competitor for planar cans but they had an issue with the headband cracking so when I sent them back I got an upgrade to the Anandas. It's a pity in some respect as I really liked the unique sound signature of the LCD1s.

My trusty work cans, the Shure SRH840, are starting to show their age so I might replace them with the DCA Aeon Closed X from Drop. While they won't quite match the Anandas they will come close.

  Audeze makes some highly praised cans. I'd love to hear them, but not buy them! 
It's rather a dangerous hobbby, isn't it.  I was a photography nut for some years, and poured many, many thousands of dollars into it. They called it "GAS"--  "Gear Acquisition Syndrome". I'm hoping with this purchase I will be set, at least for a few years...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 12, 2023, 08:27:04 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 25, 2023, 02:47:02 PMI'm fed up with all of the problems I've had with my Cambridge Audio streamer.  I bought the latest Bluesound Node, and it is so much faster and more fluid that I'll be selling the Cambridge Audio.  I also like that in addition to Qobuz (the service I use), it also has native support for Idagio if I want to jump ship.

The Bluesound Node is way better due to a far superior app.  I have started trying Idagio, and their fantastic curation and organization is apparent even in the blu app.  I will be selling my Cambridge Audio for sure now.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 12, 2023, 12:22:34 PM
The disc trays of my main CD player (NAD C-565BEE) and my old CD player (Denon DCD-735) are both working poorly. I ordered new rubber belts for both players from Portugal based WebSpareParts.com.

belts.png

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on February 12, 2023, 01:26:09 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 12, 2023, 12:22:34 PMThe disc trays of my main CD player (NAD C-565BEE) and my old CD player (Denon DCD-735) are both working poorly. I ordered new rubber belts for both players from Portugal based WebSpareParts.com.

belts.png



Do let us know please how you get on with both the quality of your spare parts and the service of this operator.
Best of luck with your replacement parts.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 12, 2023, 02:05:16 PM
Quote from: aligreto on February 12, 2023, 01:26:09 PMDo let us know please how you get on with both the quality of your spare parts and the service of this operator.
Best of luck with your replacement parts.

Okay. I liked the webpages a lot and this operator seems to have high rating among customers, but I'll tell how this goes for me.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on February 12, 2023, 02:20:19 PM
OK. I hope that it all goes well for you.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 13, 2023, 06:28:05 AM
Good luck!  At least that doesn't sound like a difficult repair.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on February 13, 2023, 04:29:04 PM

     I strongly recommend everyone struggling with audiuophilia check out this site.

     https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?reviews%2F

     He measures things and investigates claims, IOW he is a very bad man.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 13, 2023, 04:39:09 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 13, 2023, 06:28:05 AMGood luck!  At least that doesn't sound like a difficult repair.

The Denon is "easy" as I have tinkered with it before. A few years back I boiled the belt for 15 minutes and it helped, but now the belt is too old I think. I don't know about the NAD.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 14, 2023, 06:26:53 AM
Quote from: drogulus on February 13, 2023, 04:29:04 PMI strongly recommend everyone struggling with audiuophilia check out this site.

     https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?reviews%2F

     He measures things and investigates claims, IOW he is a very bad man.

Amir is great but he doesn't put enough effort into interpreting the results which is important.  Too often he will report a sinad and put it on a ranking which makes it look mediocre when nearly every device listed has inaudible distortion.  I don't really see that as being much different from the fine wine bs subjectivist articles.  Having a decent sinad is necessary but far from sufficient.

That being said when Amir shows a $$$$ Marantz sacd player performs poorly, he is truly doing a service to the community and putting the industry on notice.  But one of the best takedowns I've seen recently comes from Stereophile, when they showed that a $40k cd player measured extremely poorly.  That was great!
 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on February 14, 2023, 07:10:20 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 14, 2023, 06:26:53 AMAmir is great but he doesn't put enough effort into interpreting the results which is important.  Too often he will report a sinad and put it on a ranking which makes it look mediocre when nearly every device listed has inaudible distortion.  I don't really see that as being much different from the fine wine bs subjectivist articles.  Having a decent sinad is necessary but far from sufficient.

That being said when Amir shows a $$$$ Marantz sacd player performs poorly, he is truly doing a service to the community and putting the industry on notice.  But one of the best takedowns I've seen recently comes from Stereophile, when they showed that a $40k cd player measured extremely poorly.  That was great!
 

    Amir is good for checking out budget gear. It's fun when he unmasks the expensive mediocre stuff, but for me what's useful is seeing which low priced (relatively) equipment performs well.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on February 14, 2023, 07:34:10 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on February 11, 2023, 05:45:24 PMAudeze makes some highly praised cans. I'd love to hear them, but not buy them!

They are good but overpriced.  I own the LCD2, which are currently in storage, and they sound a bit bass heavy but otherwise even.  With movies or (especially) TV, they can sound metallic, as in they sound like they ring.  I was able to listen to a couple higher up models before I bought the LCD2, and the bass lightens a bit, but the overall sound signature remains the same. 


Quote from: DavidW on February 14, 2023, 06:26:53 AMBut one of the best takedowns I've seen recently comes from Stereophile, when they showed that a $40k cd player measured extremely poorly.  That was great!

I stopped reading Stereophile years ago since they would routinely review gear that measures terribly yet garners B, A, or A+ recommendations.  Wilson speakers always come to mind in this regard.  After having heard multiple products that Stereophile touted as Class A that actually sound mediocre (eg, Sonus Faber towers) or bad (eg, some Wilsons), it became clear that many of the reviews have no real merit.  The best typically came from John Atkinson himself since they tended to be matter of fact, whereas writers like Michael Fremer tended to the florid.  I don't know who writes for the magazine anymore, so those may be dated references.  And Stereophile was easily the best of the audiophile magazines when I read them.

Audio Science Review is useful precisely because it publishes extensive measurements from which I can determine how gear may sound.  Commentary is not really needed.  Super Best Audio Friends has an older engineer posting under the name atomicbob who also publishes extensive measurements on some gear.  And John Krutke used publish extensive measurements of raw speaker drivers that helped demonstrate the silliness of audiophile claims.  More such sites and/or publications are needed.  I'd love to see frequency response measured at real listening positions, in particular.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 14, 2023, 10:02:10 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 14, 2023, 06:26:53 AMAmir is great but he doesn't put enough effort into interpreting the results which is important.  Too often he will report a sinad and put it on a ranking which makes it look mediocre when nearly every device listed has inaudible distortion.  I don't really see that as being much different from the fine wine bs subjectivist articles.  Having a decent sinad is necessary but far from sufficient.

I'm not sure what more you expect him to do.  He shows the SINAD in context using colored quartiles, and will recommend something if it's fit for purpose.

For me, the most valuable reviews are of speakers, though he's really slowed down his pace.  Stereophile measurements are primitive in comparison.  Erinsaudiocorner is even more detailed in his speaker reviews, but he's also slowing his pace way down, so it's kind of frustrating.

I'll have to check out that Stereophile review, but I find Atkinson often gaslights his readers and makes excuses for mediocre gear in his comments on measurements.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 15, 2023, 01:29:57 AM
Atkinson conceals well, yes. I don't get much out of Amir's speaker measurements. Erin is better there.

..

I've finally taken the plunge and ordered a MiniDSP Flex Eight (https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-flex-eight) to replace the sound card and PC I've been using for crossovers in my system since 2010.

(https://docs.minidsp.com/product-manuals/flex-eight/images/photos/flex/flex-front-oblique-remote.jpg)

No Dirac for me. Basic setup, measuring, adjusting, measuring, adjusting, listening,adjusting and enjoying, no change there. I still have't heard an automated adjustment that doesn't sound weird.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on February 15, 2023, 04:26:13 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 14, 2023, 06:26:53 AMAmir is great but he doesn't put enough effort into interpreting the results which is important.  Too often he will report a sinad and put it on a ranking which makes it look mediocre when nearly every device listed has inaudible distortion.  I don't really see that as being much different from the fine wine bs subjectivist articles.  Having a decent sinad is necessary but far from sufficient.
 
I visit AudioScienceReview regularly.  Basically I do so because I believe there is a strong correlation between measurements and subjective experience.

Two issues with a one-number SINAD, (THD+noise) results are, (IMO):

I and many believe that 2nd/3rd order distortion not only sounds no worse than benign in itself but also masks disagreeable higher order harmonics.

The reality, (IMO), is the many listeners not only tolerate but actually prefer relatively high levels of 2nd/3rd order harmonic distortion.  Note that relatively high 2nd/3rd order harmonics are associated with tube equipment.  Listeners are perfectly entitled to prefer such equipment and their choices can be enlightened and guided by properly interpreting harmonic distortion spectra.

(For my part I prefer the lowest possible distortion because high SINAD and harmonics definitely reduce detail and transparency;  this impression is corroborated by most audiophiles of my acquaintance.)


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 15, 2023, 06:02:46 AM
Quote from: Valentino on February 15, 2023, 01:29:57 AMAtkinson conceals well, yes. I don't get much out of Amir's speaker measurements. Erin is better there.

You might like Audioholics instead.  They are far more comprehensive with their speaker measurements and do a much better job describing and interpreting the results.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 15, 2023, 07:25:37 AM
Thanks. Shall have a look.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on February 15, 2023, 08:21:26 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 15, 2023, 06:02:46 AMYou might like Audioholics instead.  They are far more comprehensive with their speaker measurements and do a much better job describing and interpreting the results.

Humm ... Audioholics' reviews make for fun reads, but are inconsistent at best when it comes to measurements.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mookalafalas on February 19, 2023, 11:17:01 PM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on February 11, 2023, 01:41:58 AMjust ordered a pair of Hifiman Arya V3s and an ifi Uno Dac/Amp.

  I do most headphone listening (at work) on a pair of Sennheiser 6XX headphones, which I love, but decided to splurge...

I ended up sending the Hifiman Arya's back. They were supposed to be new, but were not. Also, for whatever reason, I was not impressed at all with the sound. They were not better than the older model Hifiman Sundaras, at least to my ears, and were worse than my Sennheisers. Actually, I think there must have been something wrong with the pair I got.  Quite a disappointment, but as I couldn't afford them anyway, I suppose it's a good thing :-[ 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on February 20, 2023, 06:29:16 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on February 19, 2023, 11:17:01 PMI couldn't afford them anyway

Then why did you order them in the first place?  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 20, 2023, 06:37:17 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 20, 2023, 06:29:16 AMThen why did you order them in the first place?  ;D


Audiophilia nervosa is a heck of a thing!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mookalafalas on February 20, 2023, 05:21:30 PM
Quote from: Florestan on February 20, 2023, 06:29:16 AMThen why did you order them in the first place?  ;D


  Because I'm an idiot.  ;)
   Of course I have the money for them, but my wife has gone back to school and my oldest daughter is just starting college, so I really shouldn't be making this kind of self-indulgent purchase. Not that I wouldn't do it again, if there was something tempting enough...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on February 20, 2023, 11:40:10 PM
What was wrong with the sound for you? You liked the Sundaras and I'd imagine that the sound signature of all the Hifiman cans is similar. It's taken me a while to grow into the Anandas after the Audeze LCD1 but it's getting there.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mookalafalas on February 21, 2023, 04:07:13 AM
Quote from: Holden on February 20, 2023, 11:40:10 PMWhat was wrong with the sound for you? You liked the Sundaras and I'd imagine that the sound signature of all the Hifiman cans is similar. It's taken me a while to grow into the Anandas after the Audeze LCD1 but it's getting there.


  I had asssumed they'd be similar as well--but noticeably better. Mysteriously, the opposite seemed to be true. They were very comfortable to wear, but had less clarity and body than either my Sundaras or my Senn 6xx's. What was really weird, is the bass was weaker, and that's supposed to be one of the strengths of the Aryas (they're as big as the side of my head!).
   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on February 21, 2023, 04:10:05 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on February 20, 2023, 05:21:30 PMI really shouldn't be making this kind of self-indulgent purchase. Not that I wouldn't do it again, if there was something tempting enough...

 ;D 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 21, 2023, 05:14:11 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 20, 2023, 06:37:17 AMAudiophilia nervosa is a heck of a thing!

It is. Get yourself Sennheiser HD599 and a headphone amp with cross-feed. Stop worrying about if there's something better out there. You'll see that's all you need to be happy (audio-wise) and your audiophilia nervosa goes away. Remember, it was audio marketing that gave you audiophilia nervosa in the first place.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 21, 2023, 06:16:54 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on February 20, 2023, 05:21:30 PMBecause I'm an idiot.  ;)
   Of course I have the money for them, but my wife has gone back to school and my oldest daughter is just starting college, so I really shouldn't be making this kind of self-indulgent purchase. Not that I wouldn't do it again, if there was something tempting enough...

I just bought some audio gear despite knowing that I need to buy a riding mower soon!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 21, 2023, 08:17:34 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 21, 2023, 06:16:54 AMI just bought some audio gear despite knowing that I need to buy a riding mower soon!
Whoopsie!

And be good about wearing some ear protectors when you do get that mower; you want to be able to enjoy your music afterwards!

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on February 21, 2023, 09:37:52 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 21, 2023, 06:16:54 AMI just bought some audio gear despite knowing that I need to buy a riding mower soon!

Wow, you're a landowner now?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 21, 2023, 11:00:07 AM
Quote from: Herman on February 21, 2023, 09:37:52 AMWow, you're a landowner now?

Yup, finally bought a house last year.  No more renting for me.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on February 21, 2023, 11:33:37 PM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on February 21, 2023, 04:07:13 AMI had asssumed they'd be similar as well--but noticeably better. Mysteriously, the opposite seemed to be true. They were very comfortable to wear, but had less clarity and body than either my Sundaras or my Senn 6xx's. What was really weird, is the bass was weaker, and that's supposed to be one of the strengths of the Aryas (they're as big as the side of my head!).
   

In a number of reviews the Ananda bass is rated much stronger than the Arya.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: krummholz on February 23, 2023, 03:28:01 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 21, 2023, 05:14:11 AMIt is. Get yourself Sennheiser HD599 and a headphone amp with cross-feed. Stop worrying about if there's something better out there. You'll see that's all you need to be happy (audio-wise) and your audiophilia nervosa goes away. Remember, it was audio marketing that gave you audiophilia nervosa in the first place.

What is the difference between the HD599 and the HD599 SE? And do either of them come with an RCA-type connector?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 23, 2023, 10:59:59 AM
Quote from: krummholz on February 23, 2023, 03:28:01 AMWhat is the difference between the HD599 and the HD599 SE? And do either of them come with an RCA-type connector?

Different Colour. HD599 is beige/brown. HD599 SE is black. They come with long with 6.3 mm jack and short "portable us" cable with 3.5 mm jack.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: krummholz on February 24, 2023, 04:23:53 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 23, 2023, 10:59:59 AMDifferent Colour. HD599 is beige/brown. HD599 SE is black. They come with long with 6.3 mm jack and short "portable us" cable with 3.5 mm jack.



Is that the only difference? SE costs $50 more on Amazon!  :D

Also, the connector sizes don't really tell me whether the form factor is compatible with my equipment. I have an old Sony STR-AV500 amp with a headphone jack from that era (1970s) - not RCA-type, I misspoke before, but I'm not sure what the term is for that type of jack.

My headphones are Sony MDR-V8s from the same era, the ear pads are showing their age, and I occasionally hear distortion on the bass end through them.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 24, 2023, 05:15:37 AM
TRS 6.3 mm, Headphone jack, etc. It is exotica if it's not 6.3 or 3.5 mm TRS (Tip-Ring-Sleeve) plugs for headphones, and most modern phones come with both.

I'm very glad that my 30 years old HD 580 Precision are still in fine condition.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 24, 2023, 06:18:52 AM
Quote from: krummholz on February 24, 2023, 04:23:53 AMIs that the only difference? SE costs $50 more on Amazon!  :D

I don't even see this model in stock at Amazon! The price varies a lot. $200 is "normal", $150 is a deal and $100 is a steal.

Quote from: krummholz on February 24, 2023, 04:23:53 AMAlso, the connector sizes don't really tell me whether the form factor is compatible with my equipment. I have an old Sony STR-AV500 amp with a headphone jack from that era (1970s) - not RCA-type, I misspoke before, but I'm not sure what the term is for that type of jack.

You have 6.3 mm (1/4") plug in your Sony STR-AV500. Anyway don't connect to that! It has too high output impedance. This model needs low output impedance (10 Ω or less). As I suggested, get a headphone amp with cross-feed.

Quote from: krummholz on February 24, 2023, 04:23:53 AMMy headphones are Sony MDR-V8s from the same era, the ear pads are showing their age, and I occasionally hear distortion on the bass end through them.

The nice thing with Sennheiser headphones is you can replace the ear pads.

Distortion might be dirt. Try blowing to the drivers. That might help.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 24, 2023, 06:26:12 AM
Quote from: Valentino on February 24, 2023, 05:15:37 AMI'm very glad that my 30 years old HD 580 Precision are still in fine condition.

Same here, but I have had mine for about 25 years rather than 30 (it the model even that old??)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 24, 2023, 09:11:55 AM
Birthday present 1993 or maybe 1994 from my girlfriend. Later when we split up she moved to Australia.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: krummholz on February 25, 2023, 08:55:02 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 24, 2023, 06:18:52 AMYou have 6.3 mm (1/4") plug in your Sony STR-AV500. Anyway don't connect to that! It has too high output impedance. This model needs low output impedance (10 Ω or less).

I thought after posting to inquire whether the impedance would be compatible with my amp, but glad you mentioned it. I guess that won't work... :(

QuoteAs I suggested, get a headphone amp with cross-feed.

Do you know of a good headphone amp, or a compatible full amp, with headphone jack and equalizer controls?

QuoteThe nice thing with Sennheiser headphones is you can replace the ear pads.

Nice!

QuoteDistortion might be dirt. Try blowing to the drivers. That might help.

To expose the drivers would require removing the foam-lined pads that cover them which are glued on, and are in such poor shape that I'm afraid they would basically disintegrate if I did that. Thanks for the suggestion though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 25, 2023, 01:45:00 PM
Quote from: krummholz on February 25, 2023, 08:55:02 AMTo expose the drivers would require removing the foam-lined pads that cover them which are glued on, and are in such poor shape that I'm afraid they would basically disintegrate if I did that. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Sad/funny and true story.  Some years ago, I put on my ancient set of headphones and ended up dozing off.  Woke up, took off the headphones and found this "stuff" plastered in a circle around my ears.  Whatever the rubberized coating was had come off of the headphones and was stuck to my head!  As they weren't terribly expensive, they were canned (pun intended).

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Brian on February 25, 2023, 01:53:10 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 25, 2023, 01:45:00 PMSad/funny and true story.  Some years ago, I put on my ancient set of headphones and ended up dozing off.  Woke up, took off the headphones and found this "stuff" plastered in a circle around my ears.  Whatever the rubberized coating was had come off of the headphones and was stuck to my head!  As they weren't terribly expensive, they were canned (pun intended).

PD
Oh gosh! The only thing I've ever had with headphones was the black material on the ear padding flaking off so it looked like I had black dandruff. This sounds more alarming!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on February 25, 2023, 02:22:10 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 25, 2023, 01:45:00 PMSad/funny and true story.  Some years ago, I put on my ancient set of headphones and ended up dozing off.  Woke up, took off the headphones and found this "stuff" plastered in a circle around my ears.  Whatever the rubberized coating was had come off of the headphones and was stuck to my head!  As they weren't terribly expensive, they were canned (pun intended).

PD

Sounds more like a nightmare after you had dozed off, PD.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mookalafalas on February 25, 2023, 08:32:44 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 25, 2023, 01:45:00 PMSad/funny and true story.  Some years ago, I put on my ancient set of headphones and ended up dozing off.  Woke up, took off the headphones and found this "stuff" plastered in a circle around my ears.  Whatever the rubberized coating was had come off of the headphones and was stuck to my head!  As they weren't terribly expensive, they were canned (pun intended).

PD

 I taught a language class where students used headsets in the school language lab to chat (in English, on line) with students in other countries. All the headphones were doing that! Students were rather upset, naturally, but the headphones weren't actually old enough or bad enough to replace, so they just had to bear with it. (me too!). Some students brought their own, some put tissue between the phones and their skin, and others just had black stuff stuck on their face for a while after class...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 26, 2023, 01:24:15 AM
Quote from: krummholz on February 25, 2023, 08:55:02 AMI thought after posting to inquire whether the impedance would be compatible with my amp, but glad you mentioned it. I guess that won't work... :(

No, it wouldn't, but there is a hack for those who can use soldering iron: Make yourself an extension cable with L and R channels connected to ground with 10 Ω resistors. Another solution is to choose a headphone model with very flat impedance curve. Closed headphones are like that, for example Sennheiser HD 569, but the sound quality isn't as good as with HD 599.

Quote from: krummholz on February 25, 2023, 08:55:02 AMDo you know of a good headphone amp, or a compatible full amp, with headphone jack and equalizer controls?

Unfortunately I don't know much about headphone amps, but you can check out Meier Corda Jazz. I believe it is Meier's cheapest model with crossfeed. I use DIY headphone adapter myself (cheaper, but requires electronic skills)

Quote from: krummholz on February 25, 2023, 08:55:02 AMTo expose the drivers would require removing the foam-lined pads that cover them which are glued on, and are in such poor shape that I'm afraid they would basically disintegrate if I did that. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Blowing through may help.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: krummholz on February 26, 2023, 05:18:51 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 26, 2023, 01:24:15 AMNo, it wouldn't, but there is a hack for those who can use soldering iron: Make yourself an extension cable with L and R channels connected to ground with 10 Ω resistors. Another solution is to choose a headphone model with very flat impedance curve. Closed headphones are like that, for example Sennheiser HD 569, but the sound quality isn't as good as with HD 599.

That is doable - I don't own a soldering iron but have access at work. However, on second thought, trying to work a hack to use a good pair of headphones with my old Sony amp is probably not a good strategy as the amp is very likely on its last legs anyway - if the power is interrupted even briefly, output is badly distorted for about 5-10 minutes of play afterward. This problem occurred several years ago, and was traced to a bad capacitor by an audio shop. They replaced it, but the fact that it has gone bad again indicates this is probably a losing battle in the long run.

QuoteUnfortunately I don't know much about headphone amps, but you can check out Meier Corda Jazz. I believe it is Meier's cheapest model with crossfeed. I use DIY headphone adapter myself (cheaper, but requires electronic skills)

Audio Science Review gives the Corda Jazz a resounding thumbs down. And from the pictures, it apparently has no equalizer panel. I am not married to the idea of a headphone amp - a decent full amp with equalizer and headphone jack is something I'd be willing to invest a few $100 in. I just don't know the quality of the stuff that is out there today - obviously I have not made an amp purchase in... well, 50 years.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 26, 2023, 05:20:18 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on February 25, 2023, 08:32:44 PMI taught a language class where students used headsets in the school language lab to chat (in English, on line) with students in other countries. All the headphones were doing that! Students were rather upset, naturally, but the headphones weren't actually old enough or bad enough to replace, so they just had to bear with it. (me too!). Some students brought their own, some put tissue between the phones and their skin, and others just had black stuff stuck on their face for a while after class...
Oh, no!

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 26, 2023, 06:09:54 AM
Back in the day I used to have the Headroom Total Airhead headphone amp which was inexpensive and had crossfeed.  I honestly didn't think crossfeed made that much of a difference.  Which is probably why you rarely find them on headphone amps anymore.  But if you want to try it out Krummholz, I'm sure there must be a software solution on Windows or Mac.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: krummholz on February 26, 2023, 07:28:12 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 26, 2023, 06:09:54 AMBack in the day I used to have the Headroom Total Airhead headphone amp which was inexpensive and had crossfeed.  I honestly didn't think crossfeed made that much of a difference.  Which is probably why you rarely find them on headphone amps anymore.  But if you want to try it out Krummholz, I'm sure there must be a software solution on Windows or Mac.

Thanks, but I want something I can connect to my CD player - my SuperDrive can only be connected by unplugging from the network, and in any case, I hate every music app I've tried for the Mac (including and especially Apple's own Music - iTunes is defunct but was only marginally better anyway). I listen to streamed music on the computer to sample what I might buy on CD - if I download something, I will burn a CD to play on my amp and headphones.

I don't want to spend $1000s on a high-end audiophile amp, but $100s are in my budget.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 26, 2023, 08:43:00 AM
Quote from: krummholz on February 26, 2023, 05:18:51 AMThat is doable - I don't own a soldering iron but have access at work. However, on second thought, trying to work a hack to use a good pair of headphones with my old Sony amp is probably not a good strategy as the amp is very likely on its last legs anyway - if the power is interrupted even briefly, output is badly distorted for about 5-10 minutes of play afterward. This problem occurred several years ago, and was traced to a bad capacitor by an audio shop. They replaced it, but the fact that it has gone bad again indicates this is probably a losing battle in the long run.

Okay.

Quote from: krummholz on February 26, 2023, 05:18:51 AMAudio Science Review gives the Corda Jazz a resounding thumbs down. And from the pictures, it apparently has no equalizer panel. I am not married to the idea of a headphone amp - a decent full amp with equalizer and headphone jack is something I'd be willing to invest a few $100 in. I just don't know the quality of the stuff that is out there today - obviously I have not made an amp purchase in... well, 50 years.

That review is perhaps too harsh. The newer FF model seems to be better and the test were done with 300 Ω headphones. 50 Ω headphones suffer less from the voltage limitations.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 26, 2023, 08:48:43 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 26, 2023, 06:09:54 AMI honestly didn't think crossfeed made that much of a difference. 

It takes time to realize the benefits (reduced listening fatique). Music mixed for speakers is most of the time very unnatural with headphones because the channel separation is too large. It just takes effort to realize this because we learn headphone sound and take the problems for granted. Crossfeed is not a WOW-thing, on the contrary! Crossfed sound can appear flat before one learns to appreciate the more natural aspects of it. That said, crossfeed is not for everybody. I can't listen to headphones without it, but people hear spatiality differently so it is different for everyone.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 27, 2023, 07:52:37 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 12, 2023, 12:22:34 PMThe disc trays of my main CD player (NAD C-565BEE) and my old CD player (Denon DCD-735) are both working poorly. I ordered new rubber belts for both players from Portugal based WebSpareParts.com.

belts.png

The belts arrived today. It took maybe an extra week, because just after my order our harbours went on strike slowing down the delivery.  :(

EDIT: I changed the belt of Denon DCD-735. First test showed improved operation, but the main problem remained (the disc tray doesn't stay open. It closes immediately after opening. I suspected the switch that indicates that the tray has opened. I inspected it and noticed it has bent. So I fixed that and now the CD player works! Hurrah!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 27, 2023, 02:08:58 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 27, 2023, 07:52:37 AMThe belts arrived today. It took maybe an extra week, because just after my order our harbours went on strike slowing down the delivery.  :(

EDIT: I changed the belt of Denon DCD-735. First test showed improved operation, but the main problem remained (the disc tray doesn't stay open. It closes immediately after opening. I suspected the switch that indicates that the tray has opened. I inspected it and noticed it has bent. So I fixed that and now the CD player works! Hurrah!
Well done you!  And congrats!

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 27, 2023, 02:49:58 PM
Updated system in it's 13th year. The MiniDSP Flex Eight has replaced a RME Fireface UC sound card and a PC running PLparEQ under Console. Click the attachment for details.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 27, 2023, 05:36:43 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 26, 2023, 08:48:43 AMIt takes time to realize the benefits (reduced listening fatique). Music mixed for speakers is most of the time very unnatural with headphones because the channel separation is too large. It just takes effort to realize this because we learn headphone sound and take the problems for granted. Crossfeed is not a WOW-thing, on the contrary! Crossfed sound can appear flat before one learns to appreciate the more natural aspects of it. That said, crossfeed is not for everybody. I can't listen to headphones without it, but people hear spatiality differently so it is different for everyone.

I have a headphone amp with cross-feed and do notice a subtle advantage, but needed something with a bit more oomph and have found it impossible to find practical hardware with cross-feed. It would be natural to do cross-feed in software, since 100% of the time I am streaming FLAC files from my computer, but have failed to find a media player for which I can find some sort of cross-feed feature or plugin.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 28, 2023, 12:43:35 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 27, 2023, 02:08:58 PMWell done you!  And congrats!

PD
Thanks, but this wasn't super hard. It could have been a more difficult problem outside my skills. You never know until you try. Now I have my main CD player to fix and who knows how difficult that is.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 28, 2023, 12:46:53 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 27, 2023, 05:36:43 PMI have a headphone amp with cross-feed and do notice a subtle advantage, but needed something with a bit more oomph and have found it impossible to find practical hardware with cross-feed. It would be natural to do cross-feed in software, since 100% of the time I am streaming FLAC files from my computer, but have failed to find a media player for which I can find some sort of cross-feed feature or plugin.

https://www.foobar2000.org/components/tag/crossfeed
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 28, 2023, 02:41:12 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 26, 2023, 08:48:43 AMIt takes time to realize the benefits (reduced listening fatique). Music mixed for speakers is most of the time very unnatural with headphones because the channel separation is too large. It just takes effort to realize this because we learn headphone sound and take the problems for granted. Crossfeed is not a WOW-thing, on the contrary! Crossfed sound can appear flat before one learns to appreciate the more natural aspects of it. That said, crossfeed is not for everybody. I can't listen to headphones without it, but people hear spatiality differently so it is different for everyone.

I've been doing my serious 'phone listening with IEMs (TRUTHEAR x Crinacle Zero).  I wonder if this would make a difference since the pinnae are "bypassed".  I did see someone on github had a CamillaDSP crossfeed setup.  I may try setting that up on an unused Raspberry Pi I have. 

https://github.com/Wang-Yue/camilladsp-crossfeed
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 01, 2023, 12:53:22 AM
Quote from: Daverz on February 28, 2023, 02:41:12 AMI've been doing my serious 'phone listening with IEMs (TRUTHEAR x Crinacle Zero).  I wonder if this would make a difference since the pinnae are "bypassed".  I did see someone on github had a CamillaDSP crossfeed setup.  I may try setting that up on an unused Raspberry Pi I have. 

https://github.com/Wang-Yue/camilladsp-crossfeed

I don't use IEM's myself. The pinnae are bypassed, but this doesn't matter much because over ear headphones don't use pinnae the way it is supposed to be used (sounds coming from different angles disriminated). As crossfeed is just a simple simulation of how the sound from two stereo speakers come to both ears, headphone type doesn't really matter. Crossfeed is essentially a channel separation scaler. Speakers need larger channel separation than headphones because the listening set-up creates an acoustic crossfeeder and music is generally mixed taking that into account.

It is possible to mix music so that it works well on both speakers and headphones, but only some new music is mixed that way and most stereophonic music contain unnaturally large channel separation for headphones. At low frequencies the natural interaural level difference (ILD) is only a few decibels!* In stereophonic recordings ILD is almost always much larger than that.

* At low frequencies spatial hearing is based on delay difference rather level difference. On headphones low frequency sounds can be pan-orated on the far left for example by delaying the right ear signal by about 600-700 microseconds. If the level of the right ear is also dropped by -3 dB compared to left ear, the spatial cues are pretty good.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on March 01, 2023, 10:13:23 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 28, 2023, 12:46:53 AMhttps://www.foobar2000.org/components/tag/crossfeed

Duh, how did I miss that? I even have foobar2000 installed on my computer. I will try it out. I notice it has only one adjustment parameter (cross-feed level) so I guess the cross-feed delay is not adjustable to suit the size of your head. (Maybe that's a blessing, one less parameter I don't know how to set.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 01, 2023, 01:56:40 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 01, 2023, 10:13:23 AMDuh, how did I miss that? I even have foobar2000 installed on my computer. I will try it out. I notice it has only one adjustment parameter (cross-feed level) so I guess the cross-feed delay is not adjustable to suit the size of your head. (Maybe that's a blessing, one less parameter I don't know how to set.)


The delay isn't actually for head size, but for simulated speaker angle. Those things are of course related: Large head means one experiences a bit smaller speaker angle and vice versa, but the difference isn't huge. Crossfeeders typically use ITD of about 250 µs corresponding about ±30° speaker angles.

The crossfeed level is more relevant, because recordings have different spatiality: Some rare recordings don't need crossfeed at all while some other brutally hard-panned recordings need very strong crossfeed.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on March 02, 2023, 10:39:56 AM
That's interesting. My speakers are set very wide compared to the typical like sided triangle. The triangle top is close to 100 degrees so the base line angles are in the very low 40s. Enormous headphones!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 02, 2023, 11:06:16 AM
Quote from: Valentino on March 02, 2023, 10:39:56 AMThat's interesting. My speakers are set very wide compared to the typical like sided triangle. The triangle top is close to 100 degrees so the base line angles are in the very low 40s. Enormous headphones!

Wow that is enormous!  I personally don't like the usual equilateral triangle arrangement, and want more blending.  I use a more narrow angle.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on March 02, 2023, 11:38:50 AM
Should add that my speakers are placed 2 m from the side walls and 1 m from the front wall and close to true dipoles, and the rear wall is 5 m behind the listening position. All spatial info is direct sound from the speakers. Enormous 'phones as already stated.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on March 03, 2023, 01:43:17 AM
Decided after some listening sessions of the Lumin T3 streamer, not to take this model, because of a disappointing DAC, instead I am opting for the new U2 without a DAC, and use the DAC of my Esoteric SACD player which is far superior to the DAC of the T3. Plus the fact that I do not have to buy an extra set of interlinks, Nordost, Vahalla II. Saves an enormous amount of money. Plus after hearing the U2 I concluded it even sounded better as the T3. So its an ongoing journey. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 03, 2023, 03:12:37 AM
Quote from: Valentino on March 02, 2023, 10:39:56 AMMy speakers are set very wide compared to the typical like sided triangle. The triangle top is close to 100 degrees so the base line angles are in the very low 40s. Enormous headphones!

Don't you have a "gap" in the middle of the soundstage? Do you get good reproduction of sounds mixed in the center or does it feel almost all sound is on the left and right?

The correct speaker angle is the one that gives an uniform soundtage that feels equally "thick" from left speaker to right speakers. Room acoustics, listening position, Speaker "toe in" angle* and speaker type (directivity) affects what angle works best, but ±30° is a good starting point. Larger, more directive speakers may require smaller angle than small less directive speakers.

* Speaker toe in angle is an overlooked method of fine-tuning audio systems. It isn't marketed anywhere, because no money is to be made from it. It costs nothing to turn your speakers toward or away from each other. It only requires spending the time trying out which toe in angle gives the best soundstage. Zero toe in angle is the one where the speakers point at the listener and the sides of the speakers can't be seen. Positive toe in angle is the one where the speaker axes cross each other in front of the listener and outer sides of the speakers are seen a little bit. This tends to give more focused, sharper soundstage that is closer to headphone sound. Negative toe in angle makes the speaker axes cross behind the listener giving a more diffuse/softer soundtage. A simple and cost-free way to fine-tune your speaker sound to your liking soundstage-wise if one is willing to spend some time on it. Speaker/listener placement is another very important thing, but can be more challenging if the placement of speakers and listening place are limited to a certain points in the listening room due to other furnitures and decorational aestetics.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 03, 2023, 03:21:14 AM
Quote from: Harry on March 03, 2023, 01:43:17 AMDecided after some listening sessions of the Lumin T3 streamer, not to take this model, because of a disappointing DAC, instead I am opting for the new U2 without a DAC, and use the DAC of my Esoteric SACD player which is far superior to the DAC of the T3. Plus the fact that I do not have to buy an extra set of interlinks, Nordost, Vahalla II. Saves an enormous amount of money. Plus after hearing the U2 I concluded it even sounded better as the T3. So its an ongoing journey. :)

Surprising that an audio device of that price point has got a disappointing DAC in 2023. It is not the 80's anymore when "disappointing" DACs actually existed. Are you sure the cause of your disappointment is the DAC and not something else?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 03, 2023, 03:28:36 AM
Quote from: Valentino on March 02, 2023, 11:38:50 AMShould add that my speakers are placed 2 m from the side walls and 1 m from the front wall and close to true dipoles, and the rear wall is 5 m behind the listening position. All spatial info is direct sound from the speakers. Enormous 'phones as already stated.

Dipole speakers radiate almost everything forward and backward so the side walls aren't a big issue. You may want to test if increasing the distance to the front wall improves things (1 m might be okay). The soundstage should indeed feel headphone-like, but do you really want that? Usually people want to make their headphones sound more like speakers, not the other way around...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on March 03, 2023, 03:32:51 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 03, 2023, 03:21:14 AMSurprising that an audio device of that price point has got a disappointing DAC in 2023. It is not the 80's anymore when "disappointing" DACs actually existed. Are you sure the cause of your disappointment is the DAC and not something else?

I have to rephrase "disappointing DAC" the DAC of the T3 is very good for its price level Poju, but my SACD player is the best Esoteric built, thus the DAC is so much better as the one in the T3, so I am going to use that DAC instead. The U2 streamer by Lumin is just released, I was invited to the introduction of this model in the Netherlands, and impressed by it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 03, 2023, 04:04:27 AM
Quote from: Harry on March 03, 2023, 03:32:51 AMI have to rephrase "disappointing DAC" the DAC of the T3 is very good for its price level Poju,

Are there really audible differences between DACS in 2023? Aren't we beyond transparency (the limits of human hearing) at this point? What can make DACS sound different? Jitter is far below what humans can hear these days. Linearity is excellent, so what gives? Frankly it is silly in 2023 to stare price tags and conclude the pricier DAC, the better the sound must be. A $8 Apple dongle performs transparently!

Are you sure you can tell apart the DACs if you don't know which one is used? People hear all kind of differences in normal listening, because of expectation bias, placebo effect and what not, but these differencis tend to go away or at least became much harder to hear in proper double blind tests because these psychological aspects are eliminated.

I have no business to tell you how to spend your money, but high-end audio business is about cashing in on snake-oil marketing. Yes, these pricy products do have better build quality, but it is build quality that rarely translates into massive sonic benefits, because digital audio in 2023 allows very transparent sound on "not so good" build quality (one of the main points of digital audio in the first place!). Now, if you like the look of pricy audio gear and you like how it feels to use them (good quality buttons etc.) and you have the money to spend then why not, but don't fall into the marketing claiming you have to spend thousands of euros for good sound. No, in 2023 thanks to matured digital audio good sound doesn't often cost much unless we talk about transducers.

Quote from: Harry on March 03, 2023, 03:32:51 AMbut my SACD player is the best Esoteric built, thus the DAC is so much better as the one in the T3, so I am going to use that DAC instead. The U2 streamer by Lumin is just released, I was invited to the introduction of this model in the Netherlands, and impressed by it.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't hear a difference between the two DACs in double blind listening tests, nor would anyone else. Expectation bias probably makes you hear the Esoteric DAC better because you think it has got a better built, but the audio signal is just stupid audio signal. It doesn't know what the DACs cost nor do they care about "better built quality" which is a human concept. All they care about is the physical properties that dictate how the laws of physics apply.


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 03, 2023, 06:13:26 AM
Quote from: Harry on March 03, 2023, 01:43:17 AMDecided after some listening sessions of the Lumin T3 streamer, not to take this model, because of a disappointing DAC, instead I am opting for the new U2 without a DAC, and use the DAC of my Esoteric SACD player which is far superior to the DAC of the T3. Plus the fact that I do not have to buy an extra set of interlinks, Nordost, Vahalla II. Saves an enormous amount of money. Plus after hearing the U2 I concluded it even sounded better as the T3. So its an ongoing journey. :)

I thought you had an external dac that you used?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on March 03, 2023, 06:16:42 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 03, 2023, 06:13:26 AMI thought you had an external dac that you used?

Nope :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 03, 2023, 06:24:17 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 03, 2023, 04:04:27 AMAre there really audible differences between DACS in 2023?

Yes there are.  Different dacs use different op-amps, different topologies and end up sounding different.  Most of what makes dacs sound different are their analog stages and not the performance of the chip or ladder themselves.

What you're discussing is diminishing returns.  Even a $100 dac has a fantastically high sinad.  That was my complaint about asr, is that those measurements make it look like a $1k dac sounds better than a $100 when they frankly do not. 

But they do indeed sound different.  But different isn't necessarily better.  It is just different.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on March 03, 2023, 09:13:29 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 03, 2023, 06:24:17 AMYes there are.  Different dacs use different op-amps, different topologies and end up sounding different.  Most of what makes dacs sound different are their analog stages and not the performance of the chip or ladder themselves.

What you're discussing is diminishing returns.  Even a $100 dac has a fantastically high sinad.  That was my complaint about asr, is that those measurements make it look like a $1k dac sounds better than a $100 when they frankly do not. 

But they do indeed sound different.  But different isn't necessarily better.  It is just different.

    I think Amir makes it clear in his reviews that the difference between the top digital performers and the mid level ones is not an audible difference. If a difference exists it would be how the analog output is different when connected to listening devices.

    What I do get from Amir is his admiration for technical excellence both in absolute terms and relative to price. He says repeatedly that these difference have no audible consequences.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on March 03, 2023, 01:15:25 PM
Bought my new phono amp (Cambridge Alva Duo) based mainly on ASR measurements and the fact that both 100 pF and 100 Ohm loading is right for the cartridges I care about using. Of course the headphone amp in it is not exactly versatile but I already have one.
How it sounds? Don't get me started.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on March 03, 2023, 09:52:08 PM
^@71dB, No, I do not get a "hole in the middle" or weak center. Of course hard panned mixer constructed soundstages get wide, but that's not classical music. To me my setup sounds like I'm close to the orchestra, which i s also what I prefer in most concert halls.
I made a system presentation over on Audiokarma: https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/kjetils-audio.990898/
Low cost but effective electronics, expensive transducers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on March 04, 2023, 05:24:10 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 03, 2023, 04:04:27 AMI have no business to tell you {anyone} how to spend your money, but high-end audio business is about cashing in on snake-oil marketing. Yes, these pricy products do have better build quality, but it is build quality that rarely translates into massive sonic benefits, because digital audio in 2023 allows very transparent sound on "not so good" build quality (one of the main points of digital audio in the first place!). Now, if you like the look of pricy audio gear and you like how it feels to use them (good quality buttons etc.) and you have the money to spend then why not, but don't fall into the marketing claiming you have to spend thousands of euros for good sound. No, in 2023 thanks to matured digital audio good sound doesn't often cost much unless we talk about transducers.

Far too often even expensive gear is deficient one or another respect.  We can take as an only moderately extreme example the Devailet Expert 200 integrated amp as reviewed by ASR (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/devialet-expert-200-amplifier-dac-and-streamer-review.12286/).  (It's US$10,000 price tag might not seem that much to Harry but it is to most of us.)

It's a fact too that a lot of higher-end equipment aimed at the audiophile market is specifically designed to deliver an agreeable sort of distortion.  We may take as an example the Pass Labs XA60.5 (https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-xa605-monoblock-power-amplifier) amplifier John Atkinson in Stereophile declared, (at the time), to be the best sounding amplifier he had ever heard;  (US$11500/pair in 2014), yet it had high 2nd/3rd order distortion per JA (https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-xa605-monoblock-power-amplifier).

Quote from: 71 dB on March 03, 2023, 04:04:27 AMI'm pretty sure you wouldn't hear a difference between the two DACs in double blind listening tests, nor would anyone else. Expectation bias probably makes you hear the Esoteric DAC better because you think it has got a better built, but the audio signal is just stupid audio signal. It doesn't know what the DACs cost nor do they care about "better built quality" which is a human concept. All they care about is the physical properties that dictate how the laws of physics apply.

I guess most of us know that hard-core audiophile dismiss blind testing out-of-hand.  I have reservations about blind, (ABX), testing but I concede that if I can't hear a difference here, those difference are too slight to be of any significance.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 05:36:01 AM
Just fixed my main CD player NAD C-565BEE replacing the disc tray belt. Seems to work like new! It was easier than I feared.  :)

Quote from: Valentino on March 03, 2023, 09:52:08 PM^@71dB, No, I do not get a "hole in the middle" or weak center. Of course hard panned mixer constructed soundstages get wide, but that's not classical music. To me my setup sounds like I'm close to the orchestra, which i s also what I prefer in most concert halls.
I made a system presentation over on Audiokarma: https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/kjetils-audio.990898/
Low cost but effective electronics, expensive transducers.

It's crazy your system works, but if it work it works...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 05:48:09 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on March 04, 2023, 05:24:10 AMI guess most of us know that hard-core audiophile dismiss blind testing out-of-hand.  I have reservations about blind, (ABX), testing but I concede that if I can't hear a difference here, those difference are too slight to be of any significance.

Blind tests are the only way to remove expectation bias from the equation. Expectation bias renders listening tests useless, because it is about your expectations of the sound rather than the sound itself.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 05:51:27 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 03, 2023, 06:24:17 AMYes there are.  Different dacs use different op-amps, different topologies and end up sounding different.  Most of what makes dacs sound different are their analog stages and not the performance of the chip or ladder themselves.

What you're discussing is diminishing returns.  Even a $100 dac has a fantastically high sinad.  That was my complaint about asr, is that those measurements make it look like a $1k dac sounds better than a $100 when they frankly do not. 

But they do indeed sound different.  But different isn't necessarily better.  It is just different.

Analog output buffer can affect the sound, but how much does it cost to built a proper one?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on March 04, 2023, 06:28:28 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 03, 2023, 04:04:27 AMWhat can make DACS sound different?

Analog output stages, power supplies, and (especially) digital filters.  Measurable differences within the audible range may not exist even with differences in these areas.


Quote from: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 05:48:09 AMBlind tests are the only way to remove expectation bias from the equation.

Die hard audiophiles are dishonest and/or delusional.  I've read some audiophiles claim they can distinguish audible differences in digital sources where the only measurable differences, usually in distortion or jitter, occur at -120 dB or below.  Their claims are nonsense, of course.  Die hard audiophiles eschew blind testing, and they typically offer all manner of nonsensical reasons why.  It's been at least a decade since I last read their rationalizations, but they involved things as silly as optimal operating temperature for gear, letting gear "settle" (I don't know what that means), signal degradation if using switching devices, and so on.  It's all gibberish. 

Now, if die hard audiophiles want to go on about great differences in speakers, there they have some valid claims to make, though even there they make stuff up.  Dynamic loudspeaker technology is over a century old.  Other designs are decades old.  Performance parameters and design options are well known and have been for decades.  Room interactions are known, crossover tradeoffs are known - all performance parameters are known.  Audiophile companies peddle in preferred distortions.  And that's fine.  If people truly want distortion free, "ruler-flat" listening, studio gear is the way to go, and it has been for decades.  But almost no one wants that.

Last year I attended a product premiere at a professional audio gear company.  They demoed eight speaker models ranging from simple two-way interior use designs up to stadium speakers.  (One model could generate clear sound at 100 dB+ at over 100 meters away in an open parking lot.)  The company also builds electronics to control their speakers.  They acknowledge audiophile preferences and their electronics offer pre-programmed settings to accommodate self-styled audio connoisseurs.  To that company, audiophiles represent just another niche market with identifiable preferences that deviate from measured neutrality. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on March 04, 2023, 06:31:44 AM
Well despite the bashing we audiophiles are getting by people who think expensive gear is a waste of money, and you can have Hi-res quality at a very low price and it will give the same results, due to scientifics facts that can be or not proved, I am of the opinion that my ears are a better apparatus to judge whether or not my money is well spend. To insult us by telling that what we spend in money is utter nonsense is beginning to irritate me no end. And the phrase " to Harry it may not be a big amount" I will add this. I have to work for my money as others do, and I worked hard and still do, to pay for the equipment, which in my opinion represents the truth in sound. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, but stop telling people like me, that I deceive myself if I think that the gear I buy is far superior in all respects. I have four different stereo sets in my home, the office gear cost a mere 1000 euros, and sounds good to my ears, but it will come nowhere near my top set. And that's a scientific fact according to my rules. I do not tell that your gear is a pile of rubbish, and please stop telling me that mine is.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 08:18:42 AM
I'm not calling your gear a pile of rubbish. Clearly your gear is very high quality. I was trying to help you understand what you are paying for in these products, but I am an socially awkward introvert so I may accidently insult people. What I write here is what I can contribute here based on my knowledge, education and understanding. If it is not okay, then I don't know how to participate. Sorry.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 04, 2023, 08:24:24 AM
I think that Harry was reacting to all of us and not just you.  It is a matter of quantity, I think he felt like we were piling on.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on March 04, 2023, 08:33:28 AM
   
Quote from: Harry on March 04, 2023, 06:31:44 AMWell despite the bashing we audiophiles are getting by people who think expensive gear is a waste of money, and you can have Hi-res quality at a very low price and it will give the same results, due to scientifics facts that can be or not proved, I am of the opinion that my ears are a better apparatus to judge whether or not my money is well spend. To insult us by telling that what we spend in money is utter nonsense is beginning to irritate me no end. And the phrase " to Harry it may not be a big amount" I will add this. I have to work for my money as others do, and I worked hard and still do, to pay for the equipment, which in my opinion represents the truth in sound. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, but stop telling people like me, that I deceive myself if I think that the gear I buy is far superior in all respects. I have four different stereo sets in my home, the office gear cost a mere 1000 euros, and sounds good to my ears, but it will come nowhere near my top set. And that's a scientific fact according to my rules. I do not tell that your gear is a pile of rubbish, and please stop telling me that mine is.

    I don't think these questions should be construed as attacks on persons.

    Would it be a better world if we could all have personal truths, sciences and rules? I don't think so. It would be very hard to question ones own assumptions if they were "right for me". You couldn't even get an honest inquiry off the ground.

   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on March 04, 2023, 08:46:10 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on March 04, 2023, 08:40:27 AMThe idea being, I suppose, that the appeal of a $50K Rolex doesn't lie solely in its ability to tell the time.  It may or may not tell the time better than the $10 Casio around my wrist (and also around the wrist of Will Smith in the movie Enemy of the State) but even if it doesn't, it's still a better watch.

Why? The sole purpose of a watch is to tell the time.


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on March 04, 2023, 08:52:46 AM

     If I was in the market for an integrated amp I would be inclined to get one from NAD. I owned a 3020 way back when. If someone wanted to criticize me they could say I'm paying way too much and I should get a Yamaha or Denon for half the price. Or they could say don't buy "mid fi" and get a much better Subjectivity Z99 for only $2000 more.

     I think I could explain my choice on mostly objective grounds, with some sentimentality in the mix.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on March 04, 2023, 08:56:11 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on March 04, 2023, 08:52:29 AMCan't you afford a better watch?

The question is wrongly put. It should be: Can't you afford a more expensive watch?  ;D


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on March 04, 2023, 09:02:45 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on March 04, 2023, 08:58:06 AMNot to the people who ask it.

Oh, sure, there are lots of people who equates "more expensive" with "better". When it comes to watches, though, this is utter nonsense.

Out of curiosity, how do you reply to them?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 04, 2023, 09:08:42 AM
Quote from: drogulus on March 04, 2023, 08:52:46 AMIf I was in the market for an integrated amp I would be inclined to get one from NAD. I owned a 3020 way back when. If someone wanted to criticize me they could say I'm paying way too much and I should get a Yamaha or Denon for half the price. Or they could say don't buy "mid fi" and get a much better Subjectivity Z99 for only $2000 more.

     I think I could explain my choice on mostly objective grounds, with some sentimentality in the mix.

I have an NAD power amp and it is absolutely amazing.  Loads of power.  Exceptionally low noise floor and distortion.  And that is just the entry level.  Both objectivist and subjectivist reviewers are in love with NAD's current class D amps.  They are just killing it!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on March 04, 2023, 09:11:55 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on March 04, 2023, 08:40:27 AMThe idea being, I suppose, that the appeal of a $50K Rolex doesn't lie solely in its ability to tell the time.  It may or may not tell the time better than the $10 Casio around my wrist (and also around the wrist of Will Smith in the movie Enemy of the State) but even if it doesn't, it's still a better watch.

It's neo-Gilded Age consumerism for the bourgeoisie.  So are Avalon loudspeakers and Goldmund electronics.  To connect such rarified stereo components, one must use at least Nordost Odin cables.  Preferably, the discerning listener, with 24 karat golden ears would use 24 karat gold speaker cables from Liutanie Audio.

(https://www.remusic.it/imgcache/3_01e8bbf6e70/11770_1200_0_37d4cb599c.jpeg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on March 04, 2023, 09:16:07 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on March 04, 2023, 09:14:24 AMI generally refer them to Enemy of the State, and say that if it's good enough for Will Smith then it's good enough for me.  (I don't mention that in the movie he is disparaging when given the the Casio - for its stopwatch function - precisely because it must have cost all of $10.) 

 :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 09:16:22 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 04, 2023, 08:24:24 AMI think that Harry was reacting to all of us and not just you.  It is a matter of quantity, I think he felt like we were piling on.

Of course, but I apologized on my behalf. Others can do the same if they see fit.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 09:21:02 AM
Quote from: drogulus on March 04, 2023, 08:52:46 AMIf I was in the market for an integrated amp I would be inclined to get one from NAD. I owned a 3020 way back when. If someone wanted to criticize me they could say I'm paying way too much and I should get a Yamaha or Denon for half the price. Or they could say don't buy "mid fi" and get a much better Subjectivity Z99 for only $2000 more.

     I think I could explain my choice on mostly objective grounds, with some sentimentality in the mix.

I thought 3020 was the super-affordable option costing only £69 and selling 1.4 million units becoming the best selling amp ever. My first proper amp was the follow-up model to 3020, NAD 302. Still banging even if it's my spare amp at this point.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 09:33:16 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on March 04, 2023, 08:40:27 AMIt may or may not tell the time better than the $10 Casio around my wrist (and also around the wrist of Will Smith in the movie Enemy of the State) but even if it doesn't, it's still a better watch.

I also use "$10 Casio", namely model F-91W. The only weakness of that watch is the low quality wrist band that gets broken within a few years. I bought high quality silicon wrist band for my Casio years ago and I have a perfect watch only needing a new battery every 7 years.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 09:49:00 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 04, 2023, 09:08:42 AMI have an NAD power amp and it is absolutely amazing.  Loads of power.  Exceptionally low noise floor and distortion.  And that is just the entry level.  Both objectivist and subjectivist reviewers are in love with NAD's current class D amps.  They are just killing it!

What model do you have? NAD amps deliver impressive power compared to the specs and due to excessive current source can drive low impedance speakers with ease even down to 1 Ω!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 09:51:41 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on March 04, 2023, 09:41:27 AMYes that's the model I have.  Cheap enough to buy in quantity and leave around the place.
Cool.  :D

Quote from: ultralinear on March 04, 2023, 09:41:27 AMYou are right about the wristband, however you can get replacement parts easily and cheaply.

Sure, but I wanted a permanent solution. The silicon wristband has been insanely durable.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on March 04, 2023, 10:40:37 AM
    Consider the conclusion that CDs don't sound as good as LPs. To test this you might record an LP and burn it to a CD and compare the results. Comparing a commercial CD with the same recording on LP won't signify as they will be differently mastered. A real comparison designed to reveal an inherent difference between digital and analog would eliminate extraneous variables as much as possible. You would digitally record the LP and match the levels when listening.

    I don't have the necessaries to do this test, but it would be easy to do if I had the right stuff. What I do have is a "needle drop" of the Bernstein 1958 Rite Of Spring which sounds terrific. If I compared the digital copy to the LP would there be a difference that was recognizably digital?

     Just in case you want to play, here is the needle drop I'm talking about.

     The Rite of Spring - Bernstein NYPO ('58) (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1HbWeY6INnmj1x8H-Wb2DpCnSTomiemfd?usp=sharing)

     (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81IxCu8G3zL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 04, 2023, 10:55:32 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 09:49:00 AMWhat model do you have? NAD amps deliver impressive power compared to the specs and due to excessive current source can drive low impedance speakers with ease even down to 1 Ω!

C268
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 12:52:20 PM
Quote from: DavidW on March 04, 2023, 10:55:32 AMC268

Oh, quite a new model then. Cool.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 12:57:21 PM
Quote from: drogulus on March 04, 2023, 10:40:37 AMComparing a commercial CD with the same recording on LP won't signify as they will be differently mastered.

Even if they were the same master, the CD would lack the distortion of LP.

Quote from: drogulus on March 04, 2023, 10:40:37 AMA real comparison designed to reveal an inherent difference between digital and analog would eliminate extraneous variables as much as possible. You would digitally record the LP and match the levels when listening.

Yes and when we do this we hear how the digital copy of a LP sounds identical. It is the same master and contains the same distortions.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on March 04, 2023, 08:51:59 PM
^^^^Ruler flat doesn't sound good here, so after setting things up like that mine is tilted with a ruler straight 6 dB drop from 100 Hz to 10 kHz plus a 2-3 dB dip centered at 2 kHz.

Shall listen to that needle drop, drogulus. Haven't heard that recording.
I don't do needle drops myself. Playing LPs is half ritual, and I don't go to church much, so...

Wrist watches (and cufflinks) are almost the only jewelry a man can wear. So they can be a statement like an expensive Hifi system can be. Both hifi electronics and wrist watches can be SOTA without being expensive.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on March 05, 2023, 01:28:32 AM
Quote from: Florestan on March 04, 2023, 08:46:10 AMWhy? The sole purpose of a watch is to tell the time.

It's also one of the few male pieces of status 'jewelry'.
Nobody really needs a wristwatch anymore.
You have a phone for checking the time.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on March 05, 2023, 01:47:08 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 12:57:21 PMEven if they were the same master, the CD would lack the distortion of LP.

Yes and when we do this we hear how the digital copy of a LP sounds identical. It is the same master and contains the same distortions.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on March 05, 2023, 02:13:36 AM
Quote from: Herman on March 05, 2023, 01:28:32 AMIt's also one of the few male pieces of status 'jewelry'.
Nobody really needs a wristwatch anymore.
You have a phone for checking the time.

Of course. Phone, car watch, computer watch. I have not had a wristwatch since I can't remember when.  :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on March 05, 2023, 03:09:50 AM
I have two. Don't like not wearing one. Faster than the phone. My sons (20 and 18) don't wear watches though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on March 05, 2023, 05:52:27 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 04, 2023, 05:48:09 AMBlind tests are the only way to remove expectation bias from the equation. Expectation bias renders listening tests useless, because it is about your expectations of the sound rather than the sound itself.

Absolutely and categorically true, of course.

(... Although there a been more than a few occasions when my subjective impression was much different that what I had expected or hoped for.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on March 05, 2023, 07:16:34 AM
Watches are another passion of mine, especially mechanical ones. I have three of them, and very please with them, and with leather straps I might add. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on March 05, 2023, 07:50:22 AM
Bought a couple of Oris watches some thirty years ago. My sons have inherited them. Hopefully they'll use them some time in the future.
My daily watch now is a Braun AW10, and for suiting up a Braun AW50. Both are nice light quartz watches with easy to read hands.

For hifi I plan to get a MM cartridge for the turntable, a lot of my listening is not really worth the (to me) rather expensive MC I'm using now.

The other stuff I have is just fine, even if it's not your average hifi shop gear.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on March 05, 2023, 09:33:58 AM
Quote from: Valentino on March 04, 2023, 08:51:59 PMShall listen to that needle drop, drogulus. Haven't heard that recording.
I don't do needle drops myself. Playing LPs is half ritual, and I don't go to church much, so...



    Just to be clear, it doesn't matter which drop you use. I only have this one. The quality of the LP should be high only because there is something worthwhile to compare with a digital copy. The LP should sound very good by the standards appropriate for the medium, so a tester can judge if something essential to good sound is lost in translation.

    It's important that this kind of test renders questions about the quality of the turntable and phono and preamp stages irrelevant because they are the same for the original and copy. Only the conversion from analog to digital matters. If you mess up and clip the digital you get a do over. No "loudness war" or other recording blunders figure into the outcome.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on March 05, 2023, 12:22:15 PM
Quote from: Valentino on March 05, 2023, 03:09:50 AMI have two.

Me three. Two 18 K vintage wind-ups and one battery operated Lacroix from 1990, light on the wrist.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on March 05, 2023, 02:07:04 PM
     A watch with a 12ax7 in it will sound less digital.

     Sorry, I got confused. Some guy was discussing a tube DAC and my mind was wandering like the wild geese in the West.

    (https://i0.wp.com/soundperfectionreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/DSC_8686.jpg?resize=900%2C601&ssl=1)

     It's kind of a "not a bang but a whimper" deal, isn't it?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on March 06, 2023, 03:54:04 AM
That's the funniest litte box I've seen today.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on March 06, 2023, 07:32:28 AM
A watch is useful even though I always carry a phone, which I have hoist out of my picket and activate to see the time. Plus I sometimes find myself where I am at risk of dropping the thing onto a hard surface or water, which would be an expensive proposition. I understand the motivation for having a nice watch, within limits. I'm willing to pay more than absolute minimum so as to not have an ugly piece of plastic on my wrist.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on March 06, 2023, 08:18:23 AM
My watch is nearly as old as me circa 1954 (the watch not me) and keeps perfect time.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on March 13, 2023, 01:46:54 PM
A Zenith, nice.

My two vintage watches are from the same early fifties era, an Omega and a IWC.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on March 18, 2023, 03:45:39 AM
I have an omega seamaster but it has stopped and it feels too expensive to maintain - about £500 - the dial (bezel?) needs touching up too.  It's been in a drawer for five years and I may well give it to charity, I'm happy with my phone.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on March 24, 2023, 12:50:50 PM
I just received a Roon Nucleus Plus music server--so far I love it. I've had so many problems with both my HP laptop and MacBook Pro, that I decided to splurge on a dedicated server. It's not exactly an eye-catching piece of gear, but it works great. (I didn't take that picture, but my setup is identical: a Chord Qutest DAC and an external hard drive.)

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/55c9c12be4b0f1ce53289916/1528879457759-L237ARPAMREBE7N3D35U/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kFBnbdE9zXIoxag_kZJOQy57gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1USx_RqUSzLHYlZxYOLizVvZ_lBsXZDeHcpubMMVDyUmJVTk6-0FiBI49So1hD-Ji6w/IMG_3474.JPG)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on March 24, 2023, 02:45:53 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on March 24, 2023, 12:50:50 PMI just received a Roon Nucleus Plus music server--so far I love it. I've had so many problems with both my HP laptop and MacBook Pro, that I decided to splurge on a dedicated server. It's not exactly an eye-catching piece of gear, but it works great. (I didn't take that picture, but my setup is identical: a Chord Qutest DAC and an external hard drive.)

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/55c9c12be4b0f1ce53289916/1528879457759-L237ARPAMREBE7N3D35U/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kFBnbdE9zXIoxag_kZJOQy57gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1USx_RqUSzLHYlZxYOLizVvZ_lBsXZDeHcpubMMVDyUmJVTk6-0FiBI49So1hD-Ji6w/IMG_3474.JPG)

Very good choices! Congrats!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 24, 2023, 02:49:38 PM
Do you need to pay a monthly sub to Roon to use your server?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on March 24, 2023, 02:50:51 PM
Quote from: Harry on March 24, 2023, 02:45:53 PMVery good choices! Congrats!
Thank you. I prefer the way both Audirvana and JRiver deal with playlists, but that's about the only shortcoming and isn't a deal breaker. (Previously, I had a playlist for historical eras--Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, and Contemporary, plus a separate one for guitar and piano, but I don't seem to be able to create anything similar so far...might take more research.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on March 24, 2023, 02:52:45 PM
Quote from: DavidW on March 24, 2023, 02:49:38 PMDo you need to pay a monthly sub to Roon to use your server?
They give a free one-year software subscription, then you have the option of monthly, yearly, or a lifetime subscription. I'll probably opt for monthly in case I end up not keeping it, which doesn't seem likely at the moment, but one never knows!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 24, 2023, 03:43:52 PM
Fellows, your audio posts are off-topic, this is the watch forum.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 25, 2023, 09:44:32 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on March 24, 2023, 02:52:45 PMThey give a free one-year software subscription, then you have the option of monthly, yearly, or a lifetime subscription. I'll probably opt for monthly in case I end up not keeping it, which doesn't seem likely at the moment, but one never knows!

That seems like a very generous amount of time to decide whether the software is really indispensable enough to pay the lifetime fee.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aligreto on March 25, 2023, 10:04:39 AM
Quote from: Daverz on March 24, 2023, 03:43:52 PMFellows, your audio posts are off-topic, this is the watch forum.

 ;D  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on March 25, 2023, 12:35:56 PM
Well, that was short lived! I really dislike the library management compared to JRiver or Audirvana, so I'm returning it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 25, 2023, 04:17:04 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on March 25, 2023, 12:35:56 PMWell, that was short lived! I really dislike the library management compared to JRiver or Audirvana, so I'm returning it.

Wow, and I heard it was the best.  Well hope you find something.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 25, 2023, 07:29:01 PM
Quote from: DavidW on March 25, 2023, 04:17:04 PMWow, and I heard it was the best.  Well hope you find something.

The capabilities that stand out in my mind are built in digital filters (makes it easy to fix room modes or EQ headphones) and multi-channel capability.  I've never felt compelled to switch from Logitech Media Server, though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 26, 2023, 06:48:42 AM
Quote from: Daverz on March 25, 2023, 07:29:01 PMThe capabilities that stand out in my mind are built in digital filters (makes it easy to fix room modes or EQ headphones) and multi-channel capability.  I've never felt compelled to switch from Logitech Media Server, though.

I've heard great things about Dirac.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on March 26, 2023, 07:44:48 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 25, 2023, 04:17:04 PMWow, and I heard it was the best.  Well hope you find something.
Thanks. I guess if it were the first and only such device I used, then it might be OK. The library management problems include not importing all of my files, both from the external drive and Qobuz (It only transferred about 20% of my Qobuz files--I had it rescan twice to no avail), and I miss the way that both Audirvana and JRiver allow for user-created playlists. I have mine arranged in chronological eras--Renaissance to contemporary, then a separate one for guitar and piano. I can do that with Qobuz, but in the Roon version, all of the individual tracks are listed vertically, and since each playlist can hold 2,000 tracks, that's a lot of tracks to paw through to find the album I want. As I recall, Roon does the same thing with hard drive files. On my MacBook and HP version, the individual tracks do not show until I click on the album cover, which is vastly more convenient. The physical device itself seems fine--quiet and since it's designed just to handle audio, it doesn't have a lot of software running in the background. I do think it's way overpriced at $2500, though. Once the free subscription to the software expires, it's $15 a month, $150 a year, or $830 for a lifetime subscription. No thanks!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 26, 2023, 08:07:37 AM
Yeah that is a mess.  I have my cd rips and digital downloads organized in a folder structure and I navigate by folder on my streamer.  It is quick and easy.  In fact surprisingly quicker than relying on metadata and searching.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 28, 2023, 09:42:53 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 26, 2023, 06:48:42 AMI've heard great things about Dirac.

I've been getting great results with Acourate (https://www.audiovero.de/en/acourate.php) room correction.  I also use it to create the crossovers for my subwoofer/mains.  Unfortunately, it's not something I can recommend to the average punter, as they say in the UK.  The software was written by an engineer in Delphi, and it shows.  It took me weeks of fiddling to get used to its idiosyncrasies.  Also, it costs €286.  But  as a tool for room correction and creating digital crossovers, it's very powerful.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on April 22, 2023, 10:05:21 PM
I received this Mark Levinson No.5101 SACD/CD player today--wow! Amazing transparency and detail--seems to mitigate the typical "digital glare."
(https://i.imgur.com/idaP6We.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on April 22, 2023, 11:01:50 PM
I use the MiniDSP Flex Eight as crossover now. Four way IIR filters, dipole compensation, global EQ, the works. Here is the phase response measured in the listening position:
C4E2A9E0-9F73-48B8-9675-286C93B390ED.png
The Flex Eight has the possibility of using FIR filters on the input. Enter phase correction. Result:
3CFCA3E8-D8CA-4B2B-B3FB-3A9BB972F4EA.png
2048 taps max and FS 96 kHz makes phase correction impossible without altering the frequency response below 100 Hz or so. Frequency response is more important.
127F73AC-64CB-47C3-B575-610D40B6FFA7.png
Impulse response measured in the listening position before and after the phase correction. Less smearing in the time domain after.
The difference in sound? Improved spatial cues, a more believable sound stage. Like someone has given the listening window a good cleaning.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on April 23, 2023, 04:57:12 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on April 22, 2023, 10:05:21 PMI received this Mark Levinson No.5101 SACD/CD player today--wow! Amazing transparency and detail--seems to mitigate the typical "digital glare."
(https://i.imgur.com/idaP6We.jpg)
Just looked it up online...cool that it plays a lot of different formats.  Are you planning on using it also for streaming?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on April 23, 2023, 07:17:40 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 23, 2023, 04:57:12 AMJust looked it up online...cool that it plays a lot of different formats.  Are you planning on using it also for streaming?
PD
No, I'll still use my laptop and iFi ProDSD Signature DAC for streaming and downloaded files. From what I read, ML's streaming app leaves a lot to be desired, and I'm happy with the way Audirvana handles Qobuz and my files. Plus my iFi will playback much higher DSD rates than does the ML's DAC--not sure why they opted for a USB type-B input, designed for external hard drives, rather than type-A, which are used for computer connections.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on April 23, 2023, 12:52:02 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on April 23, 2023, 07:17:40 AMNo, I'll still use my laptop and iFi ProDSD Signature DAC for streaming and downloaded files. From what I read, ML's streaming app leaves a lot to be desired, and I'm happy with the way Audirvana handles Qobuz and my files. Plus my iFi will playback much higher DSD rates than does the ML's DAC--not sure why they opted for a USB type-B input, designed for external hard drives, rather than type-A, which are used for computer connections.
Interesting!  Thanks for the info.  And hope that you enjoy your new purchase.  :)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 23, 2023, 01:08:58 PM
A few weeks ago, I bought vintage vacuum (valve) tubes- RCA and Sylvania 6ca7- for my audio amps. The amps with the tubes sound warm and clean with extended mid-bass and I'm so happy. The pics are those I found on the web, but they look identical to mine.


(https://i.imgur.io/XI5ztzu_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)

(https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--ZGPsOe2a--/a_exif,c_limit,e_unsharp_mask:80,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_south,h_620,q_90,w_620/v1439827983/phdsci8ono4rcgm4vevl.jpg)


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on April 25, 2023, 07:39:20 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 23, 2023, 01:08:58 PMA few weeks ago, I bought vintage vacuum (valve) tubes- RCA and Sylvania 6ca7- for my audio amps. The amps with the tubes sound warm and clean with extended mid-bass and I'm so happy. The pics are those I found on the web, but they look identical to mine.


(https://i.imgur.io/XI5ztzu_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)

(https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--ZGPsOe2a--/a_exif,c_limit,e_unsharp_mask:80,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_south,h_620,q_90,w_620/v1439827983/phdsci8ono4rcgm4vevl.jpg)




Tube-rolling can be addictive. A simple and inexpensive way of improving/changing the sound of an amplifier.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on April 25, 2023, 08:11:26 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 23, 2023, 01:08:58 PMA few weeks ago, I bought vintage vacuum (valve) tubes- RCA and Sylvania 6ca7- for my audio amps. The amps with the tubes sound warm and clean with extended mid-bass and I'm so happy. The pics are those I found on the web, but they look identical to mine.


Oh yeah!! Tubes!!

I think most tube equipment users agree that different tubes sound more or less subtly different.  When I got my Sonic Frontiers Line 1 preamp a couple of years ago I decided, just for fun, to swap -- or as aficionados say, "roll" -- some tubes.

My SF preamp uses six, nine-pin, dual triode 6922/E88CC/6DJ8-type tubes, pairs work in three stages:  input buffer/driver, gain, and output buffer/cathode follower;  (don't ask). I chose to "roll" only the gain stage tubes that are considered the most critical for sound quality.

These were those tubes, ranked roughly from cool/austere/detailed to warm/smooth/full. Tube were new except as noted:

I ultimately choose the Genalex Gold Lion E88CC/6922 as good compromise.  In the driver and cathode follower stages I retained the original Reflector tubes.

Here's a pic of the inside of my Sonic Frontiers. The 'gain' tubes are the center row ...
(https://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=20428&f=reannotated_dscf110.jpg)





Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on April 25, 2023, 02:33:45 PM
I would not mind having another tube amp (I once owned a PrimaLuna Dialogue HP, which sounded great, but right after the warranty expired, it started blowing tubes!) Two issues give me pause: 1) tubes seem to be quite expensive and/or harder to get these days due to sanctions, and 2) my current B&W 803 D3 speakers dip to 3 ohms below 150 hz, which makes them hard to drive despite being fairly efficient (90dB). I understand that I'd likely lose some low end with a tube amp. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 25, 2023, 03:33:54 PM
Yes I'm a tube roller. I own and roll Reflector, Siemens(RFT), Tesla, Matsushita, Toshiba, RCA, Raytheon, Kenrad, JJ, etc.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: eljr on May 01, 2023, 06:04:37 PM


Beethoven string quartet #12 op.127
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on May 01, 2023, 06:42:57 PM
Quote from: Irons on April 25, 2023, 07:39:20 AMTube-rolling can be addictive. A simple and inexpensive way of improving/changing the sound of an amplifier.

Henry (you know who I mean I think) is convinced that all tubes sound the same.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 01, 2023, 08:35:44 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 01, 2023, 06:42:57 PMHenry (you know who I mean I think) is convinced that all tubes sound the same.

I've done a lot of tube rolling, and I'm not sure that's wrong.

I gave up on tubes.  Just too expensive to maintain, too hot in the summer, and doesn't sound better than my solid state gear.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on May 02, 2023, 01:16:24 PM
Quote from: Daverz on May 01, 2023, 08:35:44 PMI've done a lot of tube rolling, and I'm not sure that's wrong.

I gave up on tubes.  Just too expensive to maintain, too hot in the summer, and doesn't sound better than my solid state gear.



I can just imagine the tube fanbois already preparing their pen's (mightier then the sword) to strike you down for your blasphemy ;D  For what it's worth I agree with you.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 03, 2023, 12:40:17 AM
Oh, tubes. Ok, I have a 50 years old turntable, but my nostalgia stops there.

This thing is a nice offer for those who need to roll other things than phono cartridges: https://www.schiit.com/products/freya-n
I'm not planning to get one.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on May 03, 2023, 04:37:09 AM
A vacuum tube is an evacuated glass enclosure containing two pieces of metal. One piece of metal (the cathode) is heated, causing electrons to spray off the surface in all directions with a distribution of velocities that depends on the temperature. Some of those electrons hit the other piece of metal (anode), causing a current to flow between the two terminals. A metal grid is inserted between the two pieces of metal and an electrical potential (voltage) is applied to the grid relative to the cathode. If this potential (voltage) is high enough it pushes the electrons spraying off the cathode back where they came from, and pinches off the current. Therefore a voltage controls a current. This is why the device is sometimes called a "valve."

In a transistor (FET) leads are connected to two ends of a semi-conductor slab. Normally the slab is insulating, no current can flow. But an electrical potential (voltage) can be applied to an electrode attached to the side of the slab. This potential can draw electrons into the semiconductor, transforming it into a conductor and allowing current to flow between the terminals. Therefore a voltage controls a current.

They both do the same thing. I'm not sure why one is more "musical" than the other, except that the vacuum tube has substantial capacitance and other physical effects, complicating its behavior and making it more difficult to achieve accurate signal preproduction.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on May 03, 2023, 06:37:56 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 01, 2023, 06:42:57 PMHenry (you know who I mean I think) is convinced that all tubes sound the same.

He said that? Life would be much simpler and less expensive if true. When the day arrives to replace my in excess of a decade old pair of Western Electric 300B's a decision has to be made spend £2000 or £200. :-\
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on May 03, 2023, 07:09:51 AM
Quote from: Irons on May 03, 2023, 06:37:56 AMHe said that? Life would be much simpler and less expensive if true. When the day arrives to replace my in excess of a decade old pair of Western Electric 300B's a decision has to be made spend £2000 or £200. :-\

He said he did some blind testing with a friend and it proved his point. He'll put you right . . .
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on May 04, 2023, 06:47:14 AM
Quote from: Daverz on May 01, 2023, 08:35:44 PMI've done a lot of tube rolling, and I'm not sure that's wrong.

I gave up on tubes....too hot in the summer


Yep, but they're great in the winter!  ;D

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 04, 2023, 09:36:01 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on May 03, 2023, 04:37:09 AM...
They {tubes and FETs} both do the same thing. I'm not sure why one is more "musical" than the other, except that the vacuum tube has substantial capacitance and other physical effects, complicating its behavior and making it more difficult to achieve accurate signal preproduction.

Tubes produce more harmonic distortion, particularly 2nd & 3rd order.  The result is pleasing for some people, sort of like caramel syrup on the sundae.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on May 04, 2023, 09:42:07 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on May 04, 2023, 09:36:01 AMTubes produce more harmonic distortion, particularly 2nd & 3rd order.  The result is pleasing for some people, sort of like caramel syrup on the sundae.

Quite so, but of course you can use a digital signal processor to tweak harmonic distortion to your hearts content. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 05, 2023, 02:14:43 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on May 04, 2023, 06:47:14 AMYep, but they're great in the winter!  ;D

We've been experiencing "May Gray"* here, when the marine layer from the Pacific Ocean gives us cool, overcast days, so maybe I'll fire up the Rogue monoblocks.

* There is also "June Gloom".
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on May 05, 2023, 04:05:05 AM
Quote from: Daverz on May 05, 2023, 02:14:43 AMWe've been experiencing "May Gray"* here, when the marine layer from the Pacific Ocean gives us cool, overcast days, so maybe I'll fire up the Rogue monoblocks.

* There is also "June Gloom".
It's been unusually cool here, so I haven't had to [yet] aim a fan at mine [or at me] when they're on.

And go for it!  8)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 05, 2023, 07:09:11 AM
    I only use tubes for guitar and bass amps. If I had a favorite power tube it would be the 7591/a. It was designed for home stereo amps and receivers to produce high power in a small package while requiring a modest drive signal, thus allowing for fewer tubes in total. This was the last advance in power tube design, having entered the market in 1957.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3253/3723120332_2452ca8bd3_b.jpg)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JRkGDUIzWvE/TBY_vUa1-3I/AAAAAAAAADs/zdK37A42G9c/s1600/mac225.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on May 05, 2023, 07:15:38 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on May 04, 2023, 09:42:07 AMQuite so, but of course you can use a digital signal processor to tweak harmonic distortion to your hearts content. :)

That is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 07, 2023, 03:29:20 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on May 04, 2023, 09:42:07 AMQuite so, but of course you can use a digital signal processor to tweak harmonic distortion to your hearts content. :)

True ... but why do anything the easy way?  ::)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 09, 2023, 08:32:19 AM
That Fisher receiver is beautiful.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 22, 2023, 09:56:49 AM
    I'm replacing my fake Oppo ("Chinoppo") with the new Reavon UBR-x110 UHD player. It's an x100 plus SACD, but otherwise identical as far as I can tell.

    The Oppo and clones are the best USB media players for MKV videos. All of my videos are on portable drives through a powered hub. All music is on one of them.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on May 22, 2023, 03:07:48 PM
I'm still going strong with my Panasonic 4k player.  It upconverts better than Oppo did.  It has an algorithm that detects edges and applies antialiasing.  It works surprisingly well.  While dvds don't look sharp, it makes them look much cleaner and film like.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 23, 2023, 08:46:26 AM

     I considered the dp-ub820 but the manual warned me off with the limits on the USB. Otherwise it looks very good.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on June 17, 2023, 08:51:24 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/K95ZD5q/IMG-0857.jpg)

What you see is a Conrad Johnson MF200 being used to drive Quad ESL 63s. All the gubbins is because it hums and so I've had to put it somewhere where it doesn't annoy me. That meant bringing in the garden extension cable and buying an extra long interconnect - a more discrete 8m extension cable has been ordered.

Is it worth it? Well, yes for this reason. Conrad Johnson transistor amps can do timbre - I knew that because I have their smaller version, the MF80. However this MF200 monster amp can also grip big loads like these electrostatics.

Let me ask the question again - is it worth it? Yes, because it's making Leon McCawley's Schumann CD sound more like a real piano than anything else I've ever had - it does the piano attacks and it does the piano overtones.

So despite the hum, the expense, the trouble of finding somewhere to put it, the enormous weigh of it, and the fact that every time you turn it on you feel as though you've powered up a nuclear power station - I'm pleased.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on June 17, 2023, 02:37:25 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 17, 2023, 08:51:24 AM(https://i.ibb.co/K95ZD5q/IMG-0857.jpg)

What you see is a Conrad Johnson MF200 being used to drive Quad ESL 63s. All the gubbins is because it hums and so I've had to put it somewhere where it doesn't annoy me. That meant bringing in the garden extension cable and buying an extra long interconnect - a more discrete 8m extension cable has been ordered.

Is it worth it? Well, yes for this reason. Conrad Johnson transistor amps can do timbre - I knew that because I have their smaller version, the MF80. However this MF200 monster amp can also grip big loads like these electrostatics.

Let me ask the question again - is it worth it? Yes, because it's making Leon McCawley's Schumann CD sound more like a real piano than anything else I've ever had - it does the piano attacks and it does the piano overtones.

So despite the hum, the expense, the trouble of finding somewhere to put it, the enormous weigh of it, and the fact that every time you turn it on you feel as though you've powered up a nuclear power station - I'm pleased.

I would love to hear that set-up 8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on June 17, 2023, 04:29:08 PM
Recent purchases. General Electric 6ca7 probably made in the 1950s and RFT (Eastern Germany) el34 in the 1980s. The pics are from the web.


(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/654AAOSwpdJgkiEZ/s-l960.webp)

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/9~MAAOSwmt9juW20/s-l1600.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 17, 2023, 04:47:29 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 17, 2023, 08:51:24 AM(https://i.ibb.co/K95ZD5q/IMG-0857.jpg)

What you see is a Conrad Johnson MF200 being used to drive Quad ESL 63s. All the gubbins is because it hums and so I've had to put it somewhere where it doesn't annoy me. That meant bringing in the garden extension cable and buying an extra long interconnect - a more discrete 8m extension cable has been ordered.

Is it worth it? Well, yes for this reason. Conrad Johnson transistor amps can do timbre - I knew that because I have their smaller version, the MF80. However this MF200 monster amp can also grip big loads like these electrostatics.

Let me ask the question again - is it worth it? Yes, because it's making Leon McCawley's Schumann CD sound more like a real piano than anything else I've ever had - it does the piano attacks and it does the piano overtones.

So despite the hum, the expense, the trouble of finding somewhere to put it, the enormous weigh of it, and the fact that every time you turn it on you feel as though you've powered up a nuclear power station - I'm pleased.
Have some questions for you:  What is that orange and black thing to the right of it?  Is it a fan?  Er, and (pardon), any way to tidy up the cables there?  Just a thought.  Also, is there anyway that you can deal with the hum?  For what it's worth, I have tubes in my system and you can hear a very tiny bit of sound when nothing is playing, but I don't notice anything when I'm playing music.

Best,

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on June 17, 2023, 07:45:54 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 17, 2023, 04:47:29 PMHave some questions for you:  What is that orange and black thing to the right of it?  Is it a fan?  Er, and (pardon), any way to tidy up the cables there?  Just a thought.  Also, is there anyway that you can deal with the hum?  For what it's worth, I have tubes in my system and you can hear a very tiny bit of sound when nothing is playing, but I don't notice anything when I'm playing music.

Best,

PD

The orange thing is an electrical extension chord from the garden because it was the only one long enough. A more appropriate one has been ordered, and when it arrives it will be tidied. The hum is dealt with by putting it far away from the listening position - hence the need for long wires etc.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 18, 2023, 08:14:20 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 17, 2023, 08:51:24 AM(https://i.ibb.co/K95ZD5q/IMG-0857.jpg)

What you see is a Conrad Johnson MF200 being used to drive Quad ESL 63s.

I also notice the absorbing panel behind the speaker, i.e. room treatment.  You really go the extra mile!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on June 18, 2023, 08:38:20 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 18, 2023, 08:14:20 AMI also notice the absorbing panel behind the speaker, i.e. room treatment.  You really go the extra mile!

I tell friends that it's a work of art - genre Yves Klein's IKB 79, but not blue and not painted. It is also very good for making interesting lighting effects - there used to be an uplighter floor lamp in front of it, but the place is taken now by Big Conrad.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on June 18, 2023, 08:46:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 18, 2023, 08:38:20 AMI tell friends that it's a work of art - genre Yves Klein's IKB 79, but not blue and not painted. It is also very good for making interesting lighting effects - there used to be an uplighter floor lamp in front of it, but the place is taken now by Big Conrad.

May I ask what has all that complicated setup of yours got to do with how the music sounded back then? I mean, as a devoted HIPster you surely are aware that listening to Bach's music through SOTA 21st-century electronic devices is as anachronistic as it gets, aren't you? ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on June 18, 2023, 08:57:43 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 18, 2023, 08:46:32 AMMay I ask what has all that complicated setup of yours got to do with how the music sounded back then? I mean, as a devoted HIPster you surely are aware that listening to Bach's music through SOTA 21st-century electronic devices is as anachronistic as it gets, aren't you? ;D

I've just seen that that post of mine you've quoted is in franglais with that expression genre Yves Klein . . . I've been speaking French all afternoon, sorry.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on June 18, 2023, 09:13:04 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 18, 2023, 08:57:43 AMI've just seen that that post of mine you've quoted is in franglais with that expression genre Yves Klein . . . I've been speaking French all afternoon, sorry.

Whatever language you've been speaking recently is immaterial to my point.  ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 18, 2023, 09:49:25 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 18, 2023, 08:14:20 AMI also notice the absorbing panel behind the speaker, i.e. room treatment.  You really go the extra mile!
Mandryka,

Is there any way that you can do a couple of things:  1) Put in an electrical outlet where your power amp is?  And secondly, move your preamp and at least your CD player over there?  Or too small of an area?  Was just thinking that shorter cables and interconnects would be better.

By the way, I like your little vase collection on your mantlepiece.  :)  How did that come about?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Papy Oli on June 18, 2023, 09:52:35 AM
Does the toilet paper stash help sonically?  ;D

(just being facetious...  ;)  )
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on June 19, 2023, 07:27:29 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 18, 2023, 09:49:25 AMMandryka,

Is there any way that you can do a couple of things:  1) Put in an electrical outlet where your power amp is?   

Of course.

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 18, 2023, 09:49:25 AMMandryka,

   And secondly, move your preamp and at least your CD player over there?  Or too small of an area?  Was just thinking that shorter cables and interconnects would be better.

 

Well there is no preamp and there is no CD player, just a streamer, external DAC and a crossover unit which separates some of the signal out to a second amp, a Rotel, which drives the subs. And it is certainly true that the long interconnects make for a larger load. However, I've been advised (by someone who knows about electronics, who can do the calculations) that the CJ200 is so powerful that it can handle it. But it's a good thought PD, much appreciated.

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 18, 2023, 09:49:25 AMBy the way, I like your little vase collection on your mantlepiece.  :)  How did that come about?

PD

Thanks. They look good together for sure. How I got them is a long story  . . . and not a very interesting one.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on June 19, 2023, 07:32:42 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on June 18, 2023, 09:52:35 AMDoes the toilet paper stash help sonically?  ;D

(just being facetious...  ;)  )

Ahhh . . . I wondered what you were on about but now I see.

Do you know what that is? They are these

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Homefire-Heat-Logs---Pack-Of-12/p/100329

They are really good for starting the fire. And foolishly I bought a lot of them because they were on special offer. I'm scared to store them in the shed because they may get damp -- so they're going to have to sit there till Winter arrives!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on June 19, 2023, 07:41:52 AM
Just a question for you Mandryka, which streamer are you using? Any special interlinks at all between amplifier and streamer, or is the streamer directly connected to the ESL's? And what cables are you using  between the ESL's and amplifier? I always had a soft spot for these speakers, and maybe I will buy a set. I know of a firm in the Netherlands who renovates them, and sells them for reasonable prices. Which if you fav in line?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on June 19, 2023, 07:59:44 AM
Quote from: Harry on June 19, 2023, 07:41:52 AMJust a question for you Mandryka, which streamer are you using? Any special interlinks at all between amplifier and streamer, or is the streamer directly connected to the ESL's? And what cables are you using  between the ESL's and amplifier? I always had a soft spot for these speakers, and maybe I will buy a set. I know of a firm in the Netherlands who renovates them, and sells them for reasonable prices. Which if you fav in line?

The streamer is Rasberry Pi with Logitech Media Server installed.

There's an optical connection from streamer to DAC -- the DAC is old, a Theta.

The DAC goes into an external crossover, which is made by Gradient, who made the subs. And the crossover goes to the two amps -- the CJ and the Rotel.

The RCA interconnects are Chord C line, apart from the very long one, which is a cheap thing from amazon. The long one will be changed for something more reliable, I'm not sure what to yet.

The ESLs are great. The big problem with them is that the glue which holds the panels can become unstuck, and that makes them arc and spark, and necessitates an expensive service. I bought mine in 2009, they had been bought second hand by the previous owner at least 7 years before -- they are old. And they have never been serviced, but I have the boxes ready for the inevitable evil day. 

Apparently I've been fortunate partly because I never move them. It's moving them which puts stresses on the frame and causes the glue to loosen.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 19, 2023, 08:04:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2023, 07:59:44 AMThe streamer is Rasberry Pi with Logitech Media Server installed.

There's an optical connection from streamer to DAC -- the DAC is old, a Theta.

The DAC goes into an external crossover, which is made by Gradient, who made the subs. And the crossover goes to the two amps -- the CJ and the Rotel.

The RCA interconnects are Chord C line, apart from the very long one, which is a cheap thing from amazon. The long one will be changed for something more reliable, I'm not sure what to yet.

The ESLs are great. The big problem with them is that the glue which holds the panels can become unstuck, and that makes them arc and spark, and necessitates an expensive service. I bought mine in 2009, they had been bought second hand by the previous owner at least 7 years before -- they are old. And they have never been serviced, but I have the boxes ready for the inevitable evil day. 

Apparently I've been fortunate partly because I never move them. It's moving them which puts stresses on the frame and causes the glue to loosen.


May that evil day be far far away.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Papy Oli on June 19, 2023, 08:06:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2023, 07:32:42 AMAhhh . . . I wondered what you were on about but now I see.

Do you know what that is? They are these

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Homefire-Heat-Logs---Pack-Of-12/p/100329

They are really good for starting the fire. And foolishly I bought a lot of them because they were on special offer. I'm scared to store them in the shed because they may get damp -- so they're going to have to sit there till Winter arrives!

Aaaahh. I very happily stand corrected in this matter and forthwith withdraw my facetious remark to the Right Honourable Member, apologises to The House unreservedly for said remark and happily support the necessary correction on record in Hansard accordingly.  ;D  ;D  8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on June 19, 2023, 08:08:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2023, 07:59:44 AMThe streamer is Rasberry Pi with Logitech Media Server installed.

There's an optical connection from streamer to DAC -- the DAC is old, a Theta.

The DAC goes into an external crossover, which is made by Gradient, who made the subs. And the crossover goes to the two amps -- the CJ and the Rotel.

The RCA interconnects are Chord C line, apart from the very long one, which is a cheap thing from amazon. The long one will be changed for something more reliable, I'm not sure what to yet.

The ESLs are great. The big problem with them is that the glue which holds the panels can become unstuck, and that makes them arc and spark, and necessitates an expensive service. I bought mine in 2009, they had been bought second hand by the previous owner at least 7 years before -- they are old. And they have never been serviced, but I have the boxes ready for the inevitable evil day. 

Apparently I've been fortunate partly because I never move them. It's moving them which puts stresses on the frame and causes the glue to loosen.



Thanks my friend for providing all this useful info to me, much obliged I am sure. I will take extra care to buy ESL'S that are already serviced.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on June 19, 2023, 09:36:27 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on June 18, 2023, 09:52:35 AMDoes the toilet paper stash help sonically?  ;D

Only with brown notes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_note).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on June 19, 2023, 10:04:49 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on June 19, 2023, 08:06:41 AMAaaahh. I very happily stand corrected in this matter and forthwith withdraw my facetious remark to the Right Honourable Member, apologises to The House unreservedly for said remark and happily support the necessary correction on record in Hansard accordingly.  ;D  ;D  8)

If that's any consolation to you, Olivier, lots of toilet paper is what I noticed at first sight as well.  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 19, 2023, 11:18:43 AM
I have to apologize to all of the audiophiles for expressing my view that a cable cannot have any substantial effect on listening experience. My headphones have a short cable, which up until now required me to be within easy reach of the computer that was streaming the music. I have just gotten a six foot extension cable. Now I am not required to be within range of my keyboard and am not tempted to putter around with the computer while listening. The difference is huge! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on June 19, 2023, 11:34:33 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 19, 2023, 11:18:43 AMI have to apologize to all of the audiophiles for expressing the my view that a cable cannot have any substantial effect on listening experience. My headphones have a short cable, which up until now required me to be within easy reach of the computer that was streaming the music. I have just gotten a six foot extension cable. Now I am not required to be within range of my keyboard and am not tempted to putter around with the computer while listening. The difference is huge! :)

Good one! ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: aukhawk on June 20, 2023, 07:56:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 17, 2023, 08:51:24 AM(https://i.ibb.co/K95ZD5q/IMG-0857.jpg)

Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2023, 07:59:44 AMApparently I've been fortunate partly because I never move them. It's moving them which puts stresses on the frame and causes the glue to loosen.

You'll have to move them when the fitters turn up with that long-awaited wall-to-wall carpet.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on June 22, 2023, 01:27:51 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 17, 2023, 08:51:24 AM(https://i.ibb.co/K95ZD5q/IMG-0857.jpg)

What you see is a Conrad Johnson MF200 being used to drive Quad ESL 63s. All the gubbins is because it hums and so I've had to put it somewhere where it doesn't annoy me. That meant bringing in the garden extension cable and buying an extra long interconnect - a more discrete 8m extension cable has been ordered.

Is it worth it? Well, yes for this reason. Conrad Johnson transistor amps can do timbre - I knew that because I have their smaller version, the MF80. However this MF200 monster amp can also grip big loads like these electrostatics.

Let me ask the question again - is it worth it? Yes, because it's making Leon McCawley's Schumann CD sound more like a real piano than anything else I've ever had - it does the piano attacks and it does the piano overtones.

So despite the hum, the expense, the trouble of finding somewhere to put it, the enormous weigh of it, and the fact that every time you turn it on you feel as though you've powered up a nuclear power station - I'm pleased.

How are they compared to those cylindrical bookshelf speakers that you were using inspired by (I think?) LS3/5a? I had 63s before the 57.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on June 22, 2023, 07:02:50 PM
Quote from: Atriod on June 22, 2023, 01:27:51 PMHow are they compared to those cylindrical bookshelf speakers that you were using inspired by (I think?) LS3/5a? I had 63s before the 57.

Well because they're considerably bigger they can move much more air, so the pressure of sound is far greater with the ESLs. And even without the subs, the bass is louder on the electrostatics. The JR 149s and LS3/5a are really best for nearfield listening, the ESLs fill the room.

The Rogers speakers have the cute midrange timbre of ESL 57s - the ESL 63s don't have that sweetly coloured  midrange.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on June 23, 2023, 05:38:52 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 22, 2023, 07:02:50 PMWell because they're considerably bigger they can move much more air, so the pressure of sound is far greater with the ESLs. And even without the subs, the bass is louder on the electrostatics. The JR 149s and LS3/5a are really best for nearfield listening, the ESLs fill the room.

The Rogers speakers have the cute midrange timbre of ESL 57s - the ESL 63s don't have that sweetly coloured  midrange.

That makes sense. I've only heard old LS3/5a at a dealer where they always have them in one of their rooms in rotation even though they don't sell any of them.

My impression of 57 vs 63 when I had them both together was the former had a touch more realism, they sounded more similar than not.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on June 23, 2023, 07:03:30 AM
Quote from: Atriod on June 23, 2023, 05:38:52 AMThat makes sense. I've only heard old LS3/5a at a dealer where they always have them in one of their rooms in rotation even though they don't sell any of them.

My impression of 57 vs 63 when I had them both together was the former had a touch more realism, they sounded more similar than not.

The 57s have a reputation of being hard to set up, to position- small sweet spot. But I'd love a pair - or even one for a mono system.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 26, 2023, 07:11:32 AM
I like my open-back Beyerdynamic T1 headphones, but in my new home the HVAC system is a bit loud, and open back is not practical for much of the time. I'm looking for good closed back headphones (so I don't have to use noise-canceling Bose headphones)

Any good experience? I'm looking at:

Beyerdynamic DT770 pro (or maybe DT1770 pro)

(https://d33p2k2w4zpozf.cloudfront.net/media/catalog/product/cache/ad749deec4a285f568434538fd53bd61/d/t/dt-770-m-headphones-beyerdynamic-perspective_transparent_1.png)

Shure SRH940 (or maybe SRH1540)

(https://d33p2k2w4zpozf.cloudfront.net/media/catalog/product/cache/ad749deec4a285f568434538fd53bd61/d/t/dt-770-m-headphones-beyerdynamic-perspective_transparent_1.png)

There is also the Sennheiser HD300 (but I have an old beaten up pair of HD280's which I never found entirely satisfactory).

Anyone have experience with any of these, or other closed-back headphones that you like?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 26, 2023, 08:31:01 AM
I've owned the dt770 before.  They are actually pretty good.  Surprisingly decent soundstage.  I would describe them as a bit brighter than neutral, relatively easy to drive, good bass.

I also own the Shure 1540.  A bit too much bass, but it doesn't color the sound, just gives more impact than is accurate on orchestral music.  Doesn't interfere with chamber music.  The sound signature overall sounds neutral.  It is more detailed than the dt770 and easier to drive.  Not that it matters to me, I have a dedicated headphone amp.

So I like the Shure better but is it 3 and a half times better?  NOPE!  It is just slightly better.  I would recommend buying the dt770.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 26, 2023, 08:46:32 AM

    I have the DT 770 Pro and find them quite good and comfortable as well.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 26, 2023, 09:41:52 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 26, 2023, 08:31:01 AMSo I like the Shure better but is it 3 and a half times better?  NOPE!  It is just slightly better.  I would recommend buying the dt770.

There's also the Shure SRH940 at the same price point as the DT770 Pro, which seems to described as similar to the SRH1540 but with less deluxe build.

Quote from: drogulus on June 26, 2023, 08:46:32 AMI have the DT 770 Pro and find them quite good and comfortable as well.

Thanks for the advice to all. The DT 770 Pro seems like a good option.

I didn't mention that I also have and like Beyerdynamic DT 880 headphones which almost meet the bill, but are "semi-closed" and I want a bit more isolation. But I have a fondness the Shure, having used their V15 Type 5 cartridge and various Shure Microphones over the years.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on June 26, 2023, 02:03:41 PM
I'm pleased that Shure have been mentioned. I've owned a pair of their SRH840s for a long time now for use at work. They are excellent and could be called monitor headphones as they are relatively neutral. Recently, Shure issued an upgraded version, the 840a which I sampled and these are an improvement on the original.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 27, 2023, 08:30:11 AM
Spotted Horses, didn't you use to have some nice Denon closed headphones?  Or was that someone else I'm thinking of?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 27, 2023, 08:49:02 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 27, 2023, 08:30:11 AMSpotted Horses, didn't you use to have some nice Denon closed headphones?  Or was that someone else I'm thinking of?

Yes, I do have Denon AH-D2000 headphones (now discontinued). They are good, but they showing signs of age and their sound is on the mellow side. I want to have a complementary pair with sound more on the analytic side. Besides, for something I depend on, I like to have two (neurotic, I know).

I'm leaning towards the SRH-840A. By definition they are to be used when the environment is a bit compromised by ambient noise and going full audiophile is a fools errand. In a quiet environment, I have my Beyerdynamic T1s.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on June 28, 2023, 04:57:48 AM
I have the DT 1770 Pro for hifi listening and the DT 770 M for recording monitoring. In my opinion both are great for acoustical music. They should have a good amplifier though. For hifi I use the excellent and cheap Topping L30.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 28, 2023, 10:00:32 AM

     I use a Fiio USB Dac Amp (KA3) with my phones.

     (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/9eoAAOSwxPJh3hns/s-l400.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 29, 2023, 06:40:58 AM
Thanks to all those who commented. The choice between the Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro (and similar, more upscale models) and the Shure SRH840A (and similar, more upscale models) left me like the proverbial donkey between two bushels of food, not knowing which way to go.

I ended up getting the Shure SRH840 because I've admired Shure as a producer of audio transducers (the V15 Type 5 phono cartridge, Shure microphones) and have never heard their headphones, I was curious. I figured if someday I decided to go upscale with closed-back I'd have a Beyerdynamic/Shure comparison to base it on, since I have Beyerdynamic DT880 headphones ("semi-closed").

In any case, they have arrived and I am very pleased with them. Listening so far to the Takacs recording of the Beethoven string quartets, they have a very pleasant uncolored sound. (I find string quartets are my litmus test for headphones). Soon I'll listen to some orchestral and solo piano music, which will give a better impression of their bass response. Sound isolation is good.

The only downside is the construction is a little flimsy, lightweight plastic, and if I jostle the cord it I hear it reverberate in the left earpiece. Possibly it would be less of an issue with the more upscale versions with deluxe construction. Similar experience with my old Sennheiser HD280's.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on June 29, 2023, 01:40:27 PM
Just confirming that you got the 840 as opposed to the 840a. When I bought mine what sold me was the tonal and timbral accuracy as compared to similar models. I remember auditioning the Senn HD380 as well and like a number of other similarly priced cans the piano sounded just fractionally 'off'. The Shure was spot on.

Enjoy your purchase
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on June 29, 2023, 03:40:59 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 26, 2023, 07:11:32 AMI like my open-back Beyerdynamic T1 headphones, but in my new home the HVAC system is a bit loud, and open back is not practical for much of the time. I'm looking for good closed back headphones (so I don't have to use noise-canceling Bose headphones)

Any good experience? I'm looking at:

Beyerdynamic DT770 pro (or maybe DT1770 pro)

(https://d33p2k2w4zpozf.cloudfront.net/media/catalog/product/cache/ad749deec4a285f568434538fd53bd61/d/t/dt-770-m-headphones-beyerdynamic-perspective_transparent_1.png)

Shure SRH940 (or maybe SRH1540)

(https://d33p2k2w4zpozf.cloudfront.net/media/catalog/product/cache/ad749deec4a285f568434538fd53bd61/d/t/dt-770-m-headphones-beyerdynamic-perspective_transparent_1.png)

There is also the Sennheiser HD300 (but I have an old beaten up pair of HD280's which I never found entirely satisfactory).

Anyone have experience with any of these, or other closed-back headphones that you like?

Do you use an SPL meter? Headphone listening is already on the dangerous side as people want to listen louder due to Fletcher-Munson and now you have to deal with an HVAC.

I have been very impressed with what active noise cancellation can do, but it's not going to approach the levels of fidelity of the best passive headphones. When I want near complete isolation of outside sound where I can still listen at a safe volume in ear monitors are my go to.

I was wondering why the Apple AirPod Pro first gen my dad gave me sounded so good, then looking at their FR it made sense, pretty much modeled on B&K/Harman's research. But no matter what size tip I use after a while they hurt more than the UE Reference Remastered. Impressively Apple's active noise cancellation isolates outside sound about 70-80% as well even though they only have superficial fitment in the ears.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 29, 2023, 08:50:20 PM
Quote from: Atriod on June 29, 2023, 03:40:59 PMDo you use an SPL meter? Headphone listening is already on the dangerous side as people want to listen louder due to Fletcher-Munson and now you have to deal with an HVAC.

I have been very impressed with what active noise cancellation can do, but it's not going to approach the levels of fidelity of the best passive headphones. When I want near complete isolation of outside sound where I can still listen at a safe volume in ear monitors are my go to.

I was wondering why the Apple AirPod Pro first gen my dad gave me sounded so good, then looking at their FR it made sense, pretty much modeled on B&K/Harman's research. But no matter what size tip I use after a while they hurt more than the UE Reference Remastered. Impressively Apple's active noise cancellation isolates outside sound about 70-80% as well even though they only have superficial fitment in the ears.

I have not used a SPL meter. With the noise canceling headphones (Bose Quietcomfort, the previous model without bluetooth connectivity) the HVAC noise is utterly extinguished, I can't tell if the unit is on or off even with no music playing. With the closed back headphones I can barely hear when the HVAC is running, not enough to motivate me to change the volume when it cycles on. The drawback of the noise canceling headphones is that the low end is a bit excessive and there is a bit less transparency overall. I feel like I listen a little quieter with the passive headphones, although that is subjective. My listening is less than or equal to 30 minutes per day and I never get to a point of perceiving fatigue.

The only music where I really notice the Bose Quietcomfort headphones underperforming (in terms of fidelity) is orchestral music, so I might stick to them for chamber music and perhaps piano music, since have a totally silent background is nice.
Title: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: Valentino on July 06, 2023, 02:42:05 AM
Just ordered a Topping DX1 USB powered DAC/headphone amp for my laptop. Should be nice for listening and editing.

(https://www.hifisentralen.com/lagringsplass/2022/12/DX1-07-e1670098012998.jpg)
Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: Holden on July 06, 2023, 01:28:28 PM
Quote from: Valentino on July 06, 2023, 02:42:05 AMJust ordered a Topping DX1 USB powered DAC/headphone amp for my laptop. Should be nice for listening and editing.

(https://www.hifisentralen.com/lagringsplass/2022/12/DX1-07-e1670098012998.jpg)

Good choice. It's a cheap but effective way of significantly improving your latops sound. If possible, enable WASAPI for your streaming media or media software player. Qobuz will let you do this but Spotify won't. Both Foobar and VLC player allow for WASAPI playback. What's happening is you are bypassing any auditory artefacts introduced via Windows in your laptop.
Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: Mandryka on July 07, 2023, 01:23:07 PM
I'd like try active speakers sometime, Genlec or Neumann - but I'm not sure how maintainable they are.   

@Spotted Horses
Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: Holden on July 07, 2023, 01:45:57 PM
Quote from: Todd on July 07, 2023, 01:33:25 PMActive outperforms passive every time.  I've thought about switching several times, but haven't yet pulled the trigger.

As many who have computer speakers can attest to. My simple active Edifier set, complete with a substantial subwoofer which also has the mains connection, sound excellent in a near field setting.
Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: Valentino on July 08, 2023, 12:34:12 AM
In my main system the (Hypex nCore) amps drive the drivers (ha!) directly. There's not even a "safety capacitor" in series with the tweeters. But the amps are not inside the speakers though. No space in the woofer h-frames for that.

It's nice to see speaker systems like the KEF LS60 Wireless in the market. Elegant in the room, totally plug and play from the net if you want, but also possible to use with external sources and subwoofer(s) can be added too. More of that, and less of those passive contraptions, please.
Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: Mandryka on July 08, 2023, 12:55:31 AM
Just pursuing maintenance a bit, @Valentino 's Hypex is a class D amp. And I've always been reluctant to go down that road because I've picked up that they are both a little less reliable than conventional amps and much more difficult to repair. Someone said to me that by and large if they fail the entire power amp board/module must be replaced... if it's still available...

This is why I tend to go for "classic" equipment - it's easily repairable!  I'm running speakers and amps which are pushing 50 years old, they have been restored to original condition, or can be. If (or rather when) they fail, it's not impossible or bankrupting to get them repaired. Radford, Rogers, Quad, Krell, Conrad Johnson. 

By the way, I do have a class D amp, or at least I think it is. An Amptastic - it powers my computer audio. It runs hot! Not Krell hot, it won't heat the room, but it gets as warm as toast on a warm day (like yesterday!)

https://www.amptastic.com/
Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: Valentino on July 08, 2023, 10:27:25 AM
@Mandryka again, sorry.
Being an active system its 100W for the tweeter, 250 W for the midranges and 250 W for the basses per side: One nCore 250MP and one 100HF "hanger". Nothing big, it just adds up.
Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 13, 2023, 01:48:39 AM
Quote from: Todd on July 12, 2023, 06:50:22 PMI've read and heard that from audiophiles for decades.  I'll assume in your case it is true.  Most of the time it is not.  The way one can tell is how vehemently audiophiles insist that their superior hearing allows them to detect even the tiniest discrepancies in audio performance and declare that the artificial sound reproduction they fancy is more realistic than some other gear.  Never mind that they can't physically hear it or that there is no audible difference to discern, such as with digital cables.


I recently had to buy some cheap wired earbuds for travel.  (I nearly lost my wireless pair.)  The frequency response is clearly different from the wireless pair, rolled off both high and low, and the clarity does not match my open back full size headphones, but for certain types of music, the lower fi, midrange rich sound works splendidly. I'd love to have Beyer T1 level performance everywhere, all the time, but that just is not in the cards, so adjustments must be made, and it's easy to do.
Are the Beyer T1s wired or wireless?  And how do you like to use them?

Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 12, 2023, 09:36:57 PMMy hearing is far from perfect. Maybe that's why some components, including cables, sound better to my ears than others. Of course, I am not an audiophile, it is important to me that the sound of music does not have too much noise of various origins and serious distortion.

I agree that price is not decisive. At one time I used at the same time regular wired iPhone earphones in turn with a very expensive set of Noble earphones with Chord DAC. Both variants sounded very different, but it didn't stop me from enjoying music in each scenario.


I hadn't heard of Noble before now and so googled them.  Wow they are gorgeous!  How did they sound though?  I did see some very good reviews.

PD
Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: AnotherSpin on July 13, 2023, 03:10:35 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 13, 2023, 01:48:39 AMI hadn't heard of Noble before now and so googled them.  Wow they are gorgeous!  How did they sound though?  I did see some very good reviews.

PD

I had Noble Encore. Super resolving at the same time natural sound. Double Helix Cable from Peter Bradstock was a huge upgrade. Even better resolution and more of everything. Those are the pluses. Minuses: unforgiving for bad quality recordings, need for an matching quality external DAC. Whether such a high price is justified is a matter of debate and personal preference. I've had the standard models. If you go to that level of spending, it probably makes sense to consider a custom model with a custom body made to fit your ears.

I've listened to the Noble wireless earphones too. They are not as good as the wired ones. Comparing the wireless Noble with the top wireless Sennheiser earphones, I decided on the latter. Being less pricey than the wireless Noble they sounded on the same level except for the bass, but more neutral and delicate.



Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 13, 2023, 03:31:32 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 13, 2023, 03:10:35 AMI had Noble Encore. Super resolving at the same time natural sound. Double Helix Cable from Peter Bradstock was a huge upgrade. Even better resolution and more of everything. Those are the pluses. Minuses: unforgiving for bad quality recordings, need for an matching quality external DAC. Whether such a high price is justified is a matter of debate and personal preference. I've had the standard models. If you go to that level of spending, it probably makes sense to consider a custom model with a custom body made to fit your ears.

I've listened to the Noble wireless earphones too. They are not as good as the wired ones. Comparing the wireless Noble with the top wireless Sennheiser earphones, I decided on the latter. Being less pricey than the wireless Noble they sounded on the same level except for the bass, but more neutral and delicate.




Are these the ones to which you were referring?  https://majorhifi.com/noble-audio-kaiser-encore-review/

PD
Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: Harry on July 13, 2023, 03:43:11 AM
Since we are are talking about headphones, I am in the market for Electrostatics. In the far past I had Stax, and have good memories of it, but that  was almost 40 years ago.
Anyone know what could be an option?

This model I started with, the SRS-3100 Earspeaker System (SR-L300 + SRM-252s)
https://staxheadphones.com/collections/stax-bundle-set/products/srs-3100

This of course an upgraded version from the one I had, but it looks the same.
Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: AnotherSpin on July 13, 2023, 03:48:30 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 13, 2023, 03:31:32 AMAre these the ones to which you were referring?  https://majorhifi.com/noble-audio-kaiser-encore-review/

PD

Correct. I looked through the article. Almost everywhere the description matches my impressions. Considering that I used a much better cable than the standard one and listened to classic and jazz mostly. I guess Noble doesn't bother much with cables, knowing that most buyers will upgrade anyway.
Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: AnotherSpin on July 13, 2023, 03:59:02 AM
Quote from: Harry on July 13, 2023, 03:43:11 AMSince we are are talking about headphones, I am in the market for Electrostatics. In the far past I had Stax, and have good memories of it, but that  was almost 40 years ago.
Anyone know what could be an option?

This model I started with, the SRS-3100 Earspeaker System (SR-L300 + SRM-252s)
https://staxheadphones.com/collections/stax-bundle-set/products/srs-3100

This of course an upgraded version from the one I had, but it looks the same.

I have no personal experience with the top line of electrostatic headphones, but I'll still give the opinion of one person whose opinion I trust a lot. He believes that two models, Audeze CRBN and Stax SR-X9000 are leading in this segment today, with Stax SR-X9000 being the absolute winner for listening to classical music.
Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: Harry on July 13, 2023, 04:09:57 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 13, 2023, 03:59:02 AMI have no personal experience with the top line of electrostatic headphones, but I'll still give the opinion of one person whose opinion I trust a lot. He believes that two models, Audeze CRBN and Stax SR-X9000 are leading in this segment today, with Stax SR-X9000 being the absolute winner for listening to classical music.

That is most helpful my friend, and I will check this out. Thank you for this swift reaction.
Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: Todd on July 13, 2023, 04:42:52 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 13, 2023, 01:48:39 AMAre the Beyer T1s wired or wireless?

Wired.  I use them hooked up to a headphone amp while sitting in a recliner.
Title: Re: To be merged with audio thread
Post by: Atriod on July 13, 2023, 12:12:09 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 07, 2023, 01:23:07 PMI'd like try active speakers sometime, Genlec or Neumann - but I'm not sure how maintainable they are.   

@Spotted Horses


I was pretty close to auditioning Genelec's largest "The One" speaker, spoke to a gent at Vintage King and was ready to pay for the in house trial but then we started seriously discussing moving across the country and moving two speakers that are 70 lbs each (for a bookshelf!) did not sound appealing. Among the big three with Kii 3 and D&D 8c they have solved the vertical directivity issue because of the concentric drivers. Still, there was one comment on ASR Amir's review that had me pausing where he said they do not sound like full size loudspeakers which he attributed to them not radiating sound from floor up like his Salon Ultima 2 (Toole also uses at home). I have LSR 306 MK2 in my office with two subs, rear one in anti-polarity to the front and it always sounds like listening to bookshelf speakers. For the $150 I paid for each JBL that isn't a problem but at $10k that is a major issue. Purely by measurements those Genelecs are about as SOTA as it gets.

There is a dealer in London, Purite Audio, that I believe is happy to audition the Kii 3 and D&D 8c. My impression (of course I'd clarify that with him) is he is fine with auditioning them even to people that don't have an interest in buying just so people can hear these new kind of speakers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on July 15, 2023, 09:47:25 AM
Okay, let us please make this thread only about the stuff you enjoy and not how you choose it.  You may find the debate thread here (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,32519.0.html)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on July 15, 2023, 12:41:34 PM
I recently bought a Roon Nucleus Plus Music Server. I had one before, but I didn't like that I couldn't organize by musical periods (Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, etc.), plus it froze after an "update," so I returned it. I since investigated other ways to manage my library, and while I still can't use musical periods (without assigning a period to each recording by editing its file information), I can now use the Focus and Bookmark features to separate recordings into instruments and musical forms (guitar, piano, violin, cello, sonata, concerto, symphony, quartet, etc.) I still had to rename recordings that didn't include the key word, but that was maybe 200-300 files instead of nearly 5,000! So, I am quite happy with it. No more computer problems and noise...just great sound, super fast performance, and it's blissfully silent. It's not much to look at, but it does its job flawlessly. (And it sounds better than either laptop.)
(https://i.imgur.com/TOhVBxn.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5EAsptm.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on July 15, 2023, 11:43:52 PM
Here's a couple of pretty pieces of audio equipment I enjoy:

(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/img_3951-jpeg.935407/)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on July 16, 2023, 06:21:01 AM
Valentino and a couple of others had on topic posts buried in the 12 page mess, I've finally taken them out of the mess and moved them back here.

Many interested posters might have missed them before, so please take a look.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on July 16, 2023, 09:36:00 AM
I replaced my smsl dac with a denafrips ares II a few months ago.  I have to say that was the right choice.  The Denafrips has this warm, inviting quality to it that the smsl doesn't have.  I finally sold the smsl recently.

Funny enough I have a cheaper smsl dac that I use with a matching headphone amp in my office that I don't think sounds as dull.

I also replaced my Cambridge Audio streamer with a Bluesound Node a few months ago.  I frequently had issues with Cambridge's app, and only once did I have an issue with Bluesound's app.  SQ is the same since I just digital out to the dac, but I've had a much better time with the Node and have also sold off my Cambridge.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on July 16, 2023, 09:53:47 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 16, 2023, 09:36:00 AMI replaced my smsl dac with a denafrips ares II a few months ago.  I have to say that was the right choice.  The Denafrips has this warm, inviting quality to it that the smsl doesn't have.  I finally sold the smsl recently.

Funny enough I have a cheaper smsl dac that I use with a matching headphone amp in my office that I don't think sounds as dull.

I also replaced my Cambridge Audio streamer with a Bluesound Node a few months ago.  I frequently had issues with Cambridge's app, and only once did I have an issue with Bluesound's app.  SQ is the same since I just digital out to the dac, but I've had a much better time with the Node and have also sold off my Cambridge.

Thats a fine streamer David, I had it many years.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on July 16, 2023, 12:25:45 PM
@Mandryka if you do hear Genelecs please post. Now that they have the W371a I'm interested in them again. Though I still need to do some research about if this will extend the cardioid radiation even lower.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on July 16, 2023, 04:21:22 PM
Quote from: DavidW on July 16, 2023, 09:36:00 AMI replaced my smsl dac with a denafrips ares II a few months ago.  I have to say that was the right choice.  The Denafrips has this warm, inviting quality to it that the smsl doesn't have.  I finally sold the smsl recently.
I'm intrigued by their DACS, especially the Pontus or Venus. I've read reviews that basically say they smooth out "digital glare." Does that result in a loss of detail with your Ares? The inability to return it if I don't like it is a bit of a turn off! I'm happy with my Chord DAC, but an even more analog sound is very appealing.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on July 17, 2023, 12:49:27 AM
From what I can gather, while a DAC makes a big difference, the more money you spend on one gives you only minor returns. I have a Schiit Modi3+ and someone let me use a much more expensive DAC as a comparison. While it did make a very modest difference, the price difference made it a no brainer.

The Modi did what it was supposed to do with my system and the more expensive item did basically the same. I'm using reasonably high end headphones (Ananda Stealth) connected to an Asgard 3 with the Modi sitting in between the amp and my PC. I'll stick with what I've got as I am happy with what I am hearing.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on July 17, 2023, 07:38:28 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on July 16, 2023, 04:21:22 PMI'm intrigued by their DACS, especially the Pontus or Venus. I've read reviews that basically say they smooth out "digital glare." Does that result in a loss of detail with your Ares? The inability to return it if I don't like it is a bit of a turn off! I'm happy with my Chord DAC, but an even more analog sound is very appealing.

No loss in detail, no audible distortion, flat frequency response.  I can't explain it, but it definitely sounded better than my previous dac in a way that is difficult to describe.  Like better soundstage, more laid back presentation but I can't say it where it comes from.  I guess resistor ladder dacs just sound different from the chip based.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on July 17, 2023, 09:54:23 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 17, 2023, 07:38:28 AMNo loss in detail, no audible distortion, flat frequency response.  I can't explain it, but it definitely sounded better than my previous dac in a way that is difficult to describe.  Like better soundstage, more laid back presentation but I can't say it where it comes from.  I guess resistor ladder dacs just sound different from the chip based.

I guess I'd be curious to hear it, but a $2000 DAC isn't in my future.

I have various DACs, ranging from $20 to $200 (a Schiit Modi) but only hear barely detectable differences which I can't say represent superiority of one or another. The expensive one definitely has better volume knob.

It seems counterintuitive that a resistor ladder DAC, no matter how carefully hand-tweaked, would have better linearity. Back in the day when resistor ladder DACs and ADCs were the standard they were notorious for bad differential nonlinearity and sigma-delta style DACS made them utterly obsolete. I suspect (without proof) they have some sort of distortion that is pleasing for physiological/psychological reasons.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on July 17, 2023, 10:02:15 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 17, 2023, 07:38:28 AMNo loss in detail, no audible distortion, flat frequency response.  I can't explain it, but it definitely sounded better than my previous dac in a way that is difficult to describe.  Like better soundstage, more laid back presentation but I can't say it where it comes from.  I guess resistor ladder dacs just sound different from the chip based.

You're entering dangerous waters, I'm afraid. The laid back presentation can't be measured. 8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on July 17, 2023, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 17, 2023, 09:54:23 AMIt seems counterintuitive that a resistor ladder DAC, no matter how carefully hand-tweaked, would have better linearity. Back in the day when resistor ladder DACs and ADCs were the standard they were notorious for bad differential nonlinearity and sigma-delta style DACS made them utterly obsolete. I suspect (without proof) they have some sort of distortion that is pleasing for physiological/psychological reasons.

Well ASR has measured it and you're wrong, it has low distortion, even fr.  It doesn't measure as well as most delta-sigma dacs but it is no slouch and certainly not like the primitive dacs of the 80s.

Also it costs more like $900 not $2k.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on July 17, 2023, 12:58:05 PM
Quote from: DavidW on July 17, 2023, 11:49:24 AMWell ASR has measured it and you're wrong, it has low distortion, even fr.  It doesn't measure as well as most delta-sigma dacs but it is no slouch and certainly not like the primitive dacs of the 80s.

Also it costs more like $900 not $2k.

I thought google shopping showed me a Pontus model for about $2k. In any case, still out of my budget...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on July 17, 2023, 02:22:50 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 17, 2023, 12:58:05 PMI thought google shopping showed me a Pontus model for about $2k. In any case, still out of my budget...

I didn't buy the Pontus, I bought the Ares/Enyo.  Also the seller shows the currency in Singapore $ instead of usd.  Even the Pontus doesn't cost $2k usd (wouldn't be surprised if their flagship did though).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on July 17, 2023, 10:09:18 PM
Every time I see a R2R DAC board or a DAC with tuneable antialiasing filters I think "but why?". That said I have a turntable and I still collect LPs so I shouldn't think like that.
Inferior can be fun too.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on July 18, 2023, 03:20:46 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 17, 2023, 07:38:28 AMNo loss in detail, no audible distortion, flat frequency response.  I can't explain it, but it definitely sounded better than my previous dac in a way that is difficult to describe.  Like better soundstage, more laid back presentation but I can't say it where it comes from.  I guess resistor ladder dacs just sound different from the chip based.

FWIW, most R2R, ladder-based DACs are chip based. Discrete resistor array DACS, à la Denafrips, are essentially an affectation.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on July 18, 2023, 10:47:37 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on July 18, 2023, 03:20:46 AMFWIW, most R2R, ladder-based DACs are chip based. Discrete resistor array DACS, à la Denafrips, are essentially an affectation.

I wasn't aware.  Do you happen to know who currently are the reputable brands for R2R?  Not that I'm going to buy, if I do an upgrade it would be with speakers and that would not be happening soon since I bought a lawn tractor and furnishing for a spare room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on July 18, 2023, 12:05:45 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on July 18, 2023, 03:20:46 AMFWIW, most R2R, ladder-based DACs are chip based. Discrete resistor array DACS, à la Denafrips, are essentially an affectation.
The chips in Denafrips DACs are FPGA, not off the shelf ESS Sabre or something. Let's not get into a debate over chips or anything really...there's a separate thread for that.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on July 18, 2023, 12:50:47 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on July 18, 2023, 12:05:45 PMThe chips in Denafrips DACs are FPGA, not off the shelf ESS Sabre or something. Let's not get into a debate over chips or anything really...there's a separate thread for that.

I had to look up FPGA and find the concept of being able to program or reprogram them after they have been manufactured quite interesting. Would this be why Denafrips is highly regarded?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on July 18, 2023, 01:03:52 PM
Quote from: Holden on July 18, 2023, 12:50:47 PMI had to look up FPGA and find the concept of being able to program or reprogram them after they have been manufactured quite interesting. Would this be why Denafrips is highly regarded?
That's probably part of it, although I imagine it's the sum total of their design that garners the praise. My Chord DAC uses all FPGA chips (no resistor ladders, though), and I think it sounds richer and less "digital" than the various ESS Sabre chip-based DACS that I have owned and currently own (the one in my amp and Oppo 205 blu-ray player).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on July 30, 2023, 08:32:55 AM
I have been listening to the Stax SR-X9000 headphones at the dutch dealer, and it convinced me to be the one I have to have, so its now in my possession. I have on loan some gear to get it up and running, and it sounds fantastic.
Thanks @AnotherSpin for to tip!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on July 30, 2023, 08:59:26 AM
Quote from: Harry on July 30, 2023, 08:32:55 AMI have been listening to the Stax SR-X9000 headphones at the dutch dealer, and it convinced me to be the one I have to have, so its now in my possession. I have on loan some gear to get it up and running, and it sounds fantastic.
Thanks @AnotherSpin for to tip!

That's great news! I'm happy for you!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 30, 2023, 09:55:19 AM
Quote from: Harry on July 30, 2023, 08:32:55 AMI have been listening to the Stax SR-X9000 headphones at the dutch dealer, and it convinced me to be the one I have to have, so its now in my possession. I have on loan some gear to get it up and running, and it sounds fantastic.
Thanks @AnotherSpin for to tip!
Glad that you are pleased with them!  Out of curiosity, what did you have to borrow in order to use the headphones?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on July 30, 2023, 10:10:23 AM
Quote from: Harry on July 30, 2023, 08:32:55 AMI have been listening to the Stax SR-X9000 headphones at the dutch dealer, and it convinced me to be the one I have to have, so its now in my possession. I have on loan some gear to get it up and running, and it sounds fantastic.
Thanks @AnotherSpin for to tip!

Does it require its own special amp like the Sennheiser Orpheus?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on August 03, 2023, 02:36:19 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on August 03, 2023, 01:48:28 PMSPEAKERS: B&W 803D3
AMPLIFIER McIntosh MA9000
CD/SACD PLAYER: Esoteric K-03
DAC: Chord Qutest
MUSIC SERVER: Roon Nucleus Plus
TURNTABLE: VPI Prime Signature
PHONO CARTRIDGE: Ortofon Cadenza Bronze
BLU-RAY/DVD PLAYER: Oppo 205
HEADPHONES: Sennheiser HD800S and Focal Stellia

Welcome back my friend :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 03, 2023, 03:12:33 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on August 03, 2023, 01:48:28 PMSPEAKERS: B&W 803D3
AMPLIFIER McIntosh MA9000
CD/SACD PLAYER: Esoteric K-03
DAC: Chord Qutest
MUSIC SERVER: Roon Nucleus Plus
TURNTABLE: VPI Prime Signature
PHONO CARTRIDGE: Ortofon Cadenza Bronze
BLU-RAY/DVD PLAYER: Oppo 205
HEADPHONES: Sennheiser HD800S and Focal Stellia

Nice components.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 03, 2023, 04:59:19 PM
I'm getting some bargain speakers tomorrow.  I've set up a spare room as a den, the only problem is that while I'm happy with the tv, I could do better than tv audio.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 04, 2023, 04:29:39 AM
I just want to remind everyone that audiophile debates are no longer allowed on this thread.  This place is now exclusively for sharing our gear only.

Discussing the merits of equipment is also fine as long as it is not "is this snake oil?" $:) 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on August 04, 2023, 04:37:28 AM
I guess the deletion of a simple and legitimate inquiry answers the question.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 04, 2023, 04:41:06 AM
Quote from: Todd on August 04, 2023, 04:37:28 AMI guess the deletion of a simple and legitimate inquiry answers the question.

No there is nothing legitimate about that trolling.  Keep it to the debate thread.  I'm about to PM both you and AS.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 04, 2023, 04:42:23 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 03, 2023, 04:59:19 PMI'm getting some bargain speakers tomorrow.  I've set up a spare room as a den, the only problem is that while I'm happy with the tv, I could do better than tv audio.
"Den" as in you're turning it into a "Man Cave"?  ;)

PD

p.s.  So, what speakers did you buy? And how did you decide on them?  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on August 04, 2023, 04:42:46 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 04, 2023, 04:41:06 AMNo there is nothing legitimate about that trolling.  Keep it to the debate thread.  I'm about to PM both you and AS.

Very good.  I anticipate the PM. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 04, 2023, 05:01:20 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 04, 2023, 04:42:23 AM"Den" as in you're turning it into a "Man Cave"?  ;)

PD

p.s.  So, what speakers did you buy? And how did you decide on them?  :)

Yes... well I actually borrowed the idea from my parents who have a small tv room.  They use it in the winter because it is warmer than the living room. 

I have a 75 inch tv that I had replaced with a 65 inch oled in the living room.  I realized that instead of recycling or selling the tv I could repurpose it, in a small room I would have the kind of field of vision you would get in the movie theater.  Which is nice because the movie theater in my town closed down.

The speakers I bought are Dali Spektors. I mostly just used reviews to choose.  I won't know if I like how they sound until they arrive and set them up which should be this afternoon or evening.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 04, 2023, 05:06:08 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 03, 2023, 04:59:19 PMI'm getting some bargain speakers tomorrow.  I've set up a spare room as a den, the only problem is that while I'm happy with the tv, I could do better than tv audio.

TVs are for the picture. The sound is an after-thought suitable barely for listening to the news when nothing better audio quality wise is available. It is ironic how TV sets had 50 years ago better sound quality (even when it was just mono!), but much worse picture quality. That's what happens when most people care about picture quality only and that's why anyone who actually cares about sound quality need separate audio system to do the TV sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 04, 2023, 05:17:30 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 04, 2023, 05:06:08 AMTVs are for the picture. The sound is an after-thought suitable barely for listening to the news when nothing better audio quality wise is available. It is ironic how TV sets had 50 years ago better sound quality (even when it was just mono!), but much worse picture quality. That's what happens when most people care about picture quality only and that's why anyone who actually cares about sound quality need separate audio system to do the TV sound.
Quote from: DavidW on August 04, 2023, 05:01:20 AMYes... well I actually borrowed the idea from my parents who have a small tv room.  They use it in the winter because it is warmer than the living room. 

I have a 75 inch tv that I had replaced with a 65 inch oled in the living room.  I realized that instead of recycling or selling the tv I could repurpose it, in a small room I would have the kind of field of vision you would get in the movie theater.  Which is nice because the movie theater in my town closed down.

The speakers I bought are Dali Spektors. I mostly just used reviews to choose.  I won't know if I like how they sound until they arrive and set them up which should be this afternoon or evening.
That sounds like a smart idea.  Sorry thought to hear about your movie theater closing down though.  I do miss not being able to go to an intimate local theatre and being forced to go to those huge plexes.

Which Dali Spektor ones did you get (I see that there are various model numbers)?  Looking forward to hearing how you like them.  If you don't already have one, you might want to now get a loveseat or a couch so that you and your mate (and friends if there is room?) can enjoy movie night.  :)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 04, 2023, 05:34:09 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 04, 2023, 05:17:30 AMThat sounds like a smart idea.  Sorry thought to hear about your movie theater closing down though.  I do miss not being able to go to an intimate local theatre and being forced to go to those huge plexes.

Yeah tickets were cheap (less than $3) and I used to walk there.  I used to even see students and families I knew.  It was a good time.

QuoteWhich Dali Spektor ones did you get (I see that there are various model numbers)?  Looking forward to hearing how you like them.  If you don't already have one, you might want to now get a loveseat or a couch so that you and your mate (and friends if there is room?) can enjoy movie night.  :)

PD

This one https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N33PMBV
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 04, 2023, 05:35:32 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 04, 2023, 05:06:08 AMTVs are for the picture. The sound is an after-thought suitable barely for listening to the news when nothing better audio quality wise is available. It is ironic how TV sets had 50 years ago better sound quality (even when it was just mono!), but much worse picture quality. That's what happens when most people care about picture quality only and that's why anyone who actually cares about sound quality need separate audio system to do the TV sound.

Yeah these thin flatscreens have really bad sound.  The one thing that is neat is that the tv can use the microphone in the remote to apply eq, and that does actually help.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on August 04, 2023, 05:38:27 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 04, 2023, 05:34:09 AMYeah tickets were cheap (less than $3) and I used to walk there.  I used to even see students and families I knew.  It was a good time.

This one https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N33PMBV (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N33PMBV)

These speakers will do just fine David, I know them and listen through the whole series.
Had them for a few months in my office/small TV room and used them to watch movies and series during the winter. Easy to handle and do not need a huge amplifier.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 04, 2023, 05:40:57 AM
Quote from: Harry on August 04, 2023, 05:38:27 AMThese speakers will do just fine David, I know them and listen through the whole series.
Had them for a few months in my office/small TV room and used them to watch movies and series during the winter. Easy to handle and do not need a huge amplifier.

That is great to hear!  They are a blind buy.  I'm not sure how pleased Amazon would be with me just auditioning and returning them and go through a few speakers! :laugh:

It is especially encouraging that it is the same use case.  Small room for tv, and the amplifier isn't too strong.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on August 04, 2023, 05:42:31 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 04, 2023, 05:01:20 AMI have a 75 inch tv that I had replaced with a 65 inch oled in the living room.  I realized that instead of recycling or selling the tv I could repurpose it, in a small room I would have the kind of field of vision you would get in the movie theater.  Which is nice because the movie theater in my town closed down.


That is exactly what we did when we bought a ZT60 to replace an aging G25. TVs are practically worthless secondhand.

The ISF calibrated ZT60 still looks really good, so far there has been no reason for us to go OLED yet other than power consumption, and we don't use it enough to warrant after building a HT.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 04, 2023, 06:20:24 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 04, 2023, 05:35:32 AMYeah these thin flatscreens have really bad sound.  The one thing that is neat is that the tv can use the microphone in the remote to apply eq, and that does actually help.

Room correction on TV? Wow! I didn't know there are TVs that can do that.  :o That said, room correction works best at low frequencies and that's the frequency range were TVs really suck.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Traverso on August 04, 2023, 06:39:24 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2023, 07:59:44 AMThe streamer is Rasberry Pi with Logitech Media Server installed.

There's an optical connection from streamer to DAC -- the DAC is old, a Theta.

The DAC goes into an external crossover, which is made by Gradient, who made the subs. And the crossover goes to the two amps -- the CJ and the Rotel.

The RCA interconnects are Chord C line, apart from the very long one, which is a cheap thing from amazon. The long one will be changed for something more reliable, I'm not sure what to yet.

The ESLs are great. The big problem with them is that the glue which holds the panels can become unstuck, and that makes them arc and spark, and necessitates an expensive service. I bought mine in 2009, they had been bought second hand by the previous owner at least 7 years before -- they are old. And they have never been serviced, but I have the boxes ready for the inevitable evil day. 

Apparently I've been fortunate partly because I never move them. It's moving them which puts stresses on the frame and causes the glue to loosen.



I found this...

After repairing dozens of Quad sets, where we reused the old stators, we started to understand why they keep coming loose;



The original stators are made of Pertinax, this is a sheet material of pressed paper, a copper layer has been applied to this sheet and then perforated.

Pertinax is a hygroscopic material, which means that it can absorb moisture and that is really undesirable because it causes the copper layer to oxidize and the already mediocre insulation no longer does its job properly.  As a result of the high voltage leakage that then arises, the air between the stator and the foil ionizes and ozone forms in the electrostat.

As a result, the glue used to fix the stators to the support grids hardens and eventually peels off, causing the elements to crackle and the foil to tear.

So we decided to make new stators, but then from better material (epoxy plate) and while we were at it, we also made an improvement in the perforation (a technique that we have been using at Solosound since 1974).

Such a process then starts with redrawing the stators, incorporating all improvements, and producing a set of stators.

We built these new stators into a set of ESL 63 and the first results were promising, they could play much louder anyway without the speakers going into protection due to breakdown and the sound remained the same.

We then looked at the construction of the elements and were able to make a few improvements there as well.  By adjusting the damping of the foil and changing the brake cloth, the basses in particular have become tighter.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 04, 2023, 06:41:37 AM
Quote from: Harry on August 04, 2023, 05:38:27 AMThese speakers will do just fine David, I know them and listen through the whole series.
Had them for a few months in my office/small TV room and used them to watch movies and series during the winter. Easy to handle and do not need a huge amplifier.

Yes, those speakers are fine for the price. These kind of basic two-way reflex ported speakers are relatively easy to design electro-acoustically and Dali is a decent speaker manufacturer.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 04, 2023, 06:51:59 AM
Quote from: Zauberschloss on August 04, 2023, 05:42:31 AMThat is exactly what we did when we bought a ZT60 to replace an aging G25. TVs are practically worthless secondhand.

Yes I learned that the hard way with an older tv.  I couldn't sell it anywhere.  Not newspaper ads, not craigslist, not ebay.  I ended up just giving it away.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 04, 2023, 07:24:49 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 04, 2023, 06:51:59 AMYes I learned that the hard way with an older tv.  I couldn't sell it anywhere.  Not newspaper ads, not craigslist, not ebay.  I ended up just giving it away.

Some years ago (at least 10+) I checked out a t.v. at my stereo shop and was impressed with a Sony Bravia one that they had.  I decided to save some of my pennies and went for a lower model (and also not as big) one I was able to get from a different electronics store which I've been pretty happy with.  I tried connecting it to my stereo system.  The sound was great, but to have the speakers on either side of the t.v.  didn't work for where I like to do most of my music listening (on couch with speakers either side of fireplace) and the speakers are too hard to move back and forth between the two spots.  House is old and rooms not well-designed for a music lover alas.

Would love to get a bigger t.v.--particularly as vision becomes a bigger problem the older one gets.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on August 04, 2023, 01:28:59 PM
Bought these for work as their predecessor, the SRH840 died. Actually the head band snapped where it meets the LH cup and I can't see a way to repair it.

My audio dealer still had some original 840s but I decided to try the upgraded model instead. The 840As are a studio monitor headphone with an essentially neutral sound signature but are still musically engaging.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/813VI-VoGML._AC_SY879_.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 06, 2023, 05:28:40 AM
btw those Dali speakers are amazing!  They image well, and I'm really surprised how good the bass is on such tiny speakers.  So I'm happy.  I don't know how they are with music, but I have a stereo for that anyway.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on August 06, 2023, 06:12:53 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 06, 2023, 05:28:40 AMbtw those Dali speakers are amazing!  They image well, and I'm really surprised how good the bass is on such tiny speakers.  So I'm happy.  I don't know how they are with music, but I have a stereo for that anyway.

Told ya ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 06, 2023, 06:40:00 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 06, 2023, 05:28:40 AMbtw those Dali speakers are amazing!  They image well, and I'm really surprised how good the bass is on such tiny speakers.  So I'm happy.  I don't know how they are with music, but I have a stereo for that anyway.
Glad that you are happy with them!  :)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 06, 2023, 08:39:01 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 06, 2023, 05:28:40 AMbtw those Dali speakers are amazing!  They image well, and I'm really surprised how good the bass is on such tiny speakers.  So I'm happy.  I don't know how they are with music, but I have a stereo for that anyway.

The specs say the -3 dB frequency is 54 Hz which implies the -6 dB point is about 50 Hz, which is okay, but won't make your socks spin of course. The price to pay here for the small size is limited sensitivity, about 84 dB/W and limited maximum loudness. Low bass at high levels will be dynamically compressed and distorted. The bass reflex resonance is 51.5 Hz and around that frequency the distortion is small, but increases above and under this frequency.The maximum impedance at 51.5 Hz is about 12 Ω and the minimum impedance around 100 Hz is 5 Hz (making the nominal 6 Ω impedance pretty exact). The treble drive has directivity control making it possible to have the crossover frequency at 2600 Hz without power response issues. I can't find any measurements of this speaker online, but the specs and the construction of the speaker are "healthy."
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on August 09, 2023, 02:00:28 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on August 09, 2023, 12:22:57 PMI had a pair of DALI Epicon 2 speakers for many years--sounded great...and were a sight to behold. (They'd be overkill for TV, though!)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.idealav.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F10%2Fdali-epicon-2-ruby.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=d8eb58997ebc9a2abf63b1ecd9d9e3a5c62dc2a573f415392a926145e87a825e&ipo=images)

I remember them well, had them on loan for a few months, and the only thing I had to do, was to write an in depth review. Actually I did not want to give them back, that bad I was. ;D


Note to PD, in answer to your question how much they have cost me, I looked it up, and I paid 6000 euros for both speakers, and the speaker stands  to put them on, 800 euros a stand, And yes in after thought I should never have sold them. If I were forced, because I have to move to a smaller home, I would buy the Dali's again.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 10, 2023, 12:36:22 AM
(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/img_4229-jpeg.941380/)

Buying the Topping DX1 for the "office" was a smart move. The sound quality, small size, the convenience of USB power,  the price. Excellent combination. I listen to a lot more music now.
The Sennheiser 580 Presicion phones are 30 years old. Nothing wrong with them. I haven't lost my rather thick hair, so the missing cushions on the headband don't bother me at all.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on August 10, 2023, 12:38:46 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on August 09, 2023, 02:03:11 PMThey were lovely sounding--very clear and detailed, but not fatiguing. I was looking for something with a "bigger" sound, so that's why I sold them and bought the B&W speakers. Some days I do miss them, and my wife certainly does since they took up far less space in the living room!

That was my impression too, and in that sense I miss them too, but I guess the urge to get it better is always nagging at my door. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on August 10, 2023, 01:20:22 AM
Quote from: Valentino on August 10, 2023, 12:36:22 AM(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/img_4229-jpeg.941380/)

Buying the Topping DX1 for the "office" was a smart move. The sound quality, small size, the convenience of USB power,  the price. Excellent combination. I listen to a lot more music now.
The Sennheiser 580 Presicion phones are 30 years old. Nothing wrong with them. I haven't lost my rather thick hair, so the missing cushions on the headband don't bother me at all.

As soon as I saw them I knew they were the HD580s. I would never sell mine. I've been in hospital for the last three days and the 580s combined with the A&K DAP I've got filled the bill brilliantly.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 10, 2023, 03:21:52 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on August 09, 2023, 12:22:57 PMI had a pair of DALI Epicon 2 speakers for many years--sounded great...and were a sight to behold. (They'd be overkill for TV, though!)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.idealav.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F10%2Fdali-epicon-2-ruby.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=d8eb58997ebc9a2abf63b1ecd9d9e3a5c62dc2a573f415392a926145e87a825e&ipo=images)
Oooh!  Pretty! And it sounds like (even more importantly) that they sound nice.  :)

Quote from: Harry on August 09, 2023, 02:00:28 PMI remember them well, had them on loan for a few months, and the only thing I had to do, was to write an in depth review. Actually I did not want to give them back, that bad I was. ;D
May I ask what they were going for then?  And must have been hard to say "Bye bye" to them.

PD
Quote from: Valentino on August 10, 2023, 12:36:22 AM(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/img_4229-jpeg.941380/)

Buying the Topping DX1 for the "office" was a smart move. The sound quality, small size, the convenience of USB power,  the price. Excellent combination. I listen to a lot more music now.
The Sennheiser 580 Presicion phones are 30 years old. Nothing wrong with them. I haven't lost my rather thick hair, so the missing cushions on the headband don't bother me at all.
Despite your [lovely sounding] hair, you might speak to your local stereo store and ask if they have any suggestions?  Just a thought.  :)


Quote from: Holden on August 10, 2023, 01:20:22 AMAs soon as I saw them I knew they were the HD580s. I would never sell mine. I've been in hospital for the last three days and the 580s combined with the A&K DAP I've got filled the bill brilliantly.
Hope that it's nothing serious and that you get better soon!

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 10, 2023, 05:35:47 AM
Quote from: Valentino on August 10, 2023, 12:36:22 AMThe Sennheiser 580 Presicion phones are 30 years old. Nothing wrong with them. I haven't lost my rather thick hair, so the missing cushions on the headband don't bother me at all.

I loved mine back in the day, selling them was stupid.  More than a decade ago I bought 600s and I still use them (even though the 660s2 is now my daily driver) and I will never part with them.

Good headphones and speakers can really last you the rest of your life.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on August 10, 2023, 07:28:47 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on August 10, 2023, 07:25:52 AM@Pohjolas Daughter They cost $8500USD at the time (2009-2010), but I paid $6700.

For me it was 6000 euros, but I had a special edition of which just a few were made.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 10, 2023, 07:42:07 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on August 10, 2023, 07:25:52 AM@Pohjolas Daughter They cost $8500USD at the time (2009-2010), but I paid $6700.
Thanks!

Quote from: Harry on August 10, 2023, 07:28:47 AMFor me it was 6000 euros, but I had a special edition of which just a few were made.
Thanks...and I did just now read your additional comments added to your original posting.  Until I read that, I had thought that you had returned them after the several months and writing your review of them; silly me!  ;D   ;)

What finish did you end up getting them in?  Was the red one the special edition?

PD

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on August 10, 2023, 07:57:33 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 10, 2023, 07:42:07 AMThanks!
Thanks...and I did just now read your additional comments added to your original posting.  Until I read that, I had thought that you had returned them after the several months and writing your review of them; silly me!  ;D  ;)

What finish did you end up getting them in?  Was the red one the special edition?

PD



I returned them, for they were demo's and they wanted them back, and so after a bit of time I bought them myself. I had a special wood finish and some technical extras.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on August 10, 2023, 01:26:45 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 10, 2023, 03:21:52 AMOooh!  Pretty! And it sounds like (even more importantly) that they sound nice.  :)
May I ask what they were going for then?  And must have been hard to say "Bye bye" to them.

PDDespite your [lovely sounding] hair, you might speak to your local stereo store and ask if they have any suggestions?  Just a thought.  :)

Hope that it's nothing serious and that you get better soon!

PD

An aortic abdominal aneurysm which was discovered by accident via a scan on my back. These things have no symptoms and when they rupture you bleed out in about 10 minutes. It's now been stented and should cause me no problems. Apparently this is more common than people think and paying for a scan to check it out could be a lifesaver. I am so grateful mine was discovered.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 10, 2023, 01:39:37 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 10, 2023, 01:26:45 PMAn aortic abdominal aneurysm which was discovered by accident via a scan on my back. These things have no symptoms and when they rupture you bleed out in about 10 minutes. It's now been stented and should cause me no problems. Apparently this is more common than people think and paying for a scan to check it out could be a lifesaver. I am so grateful mine was discovered.
Wow!  And I'm so sorry for your pain and ordeal.  May I ask as to why they did the scan?  And I'm glad that you're o.k.

All the best,

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 10, 2023, 07:20:18 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 10, 2023, 03:21:52 AMDespite your [lovely sounding] hair, you might speak to your local stereo store and ask if they have any suggestions?  Just a thought.  :)
I probably would if I was bald!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on August 11, 2023, 01:49:29 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 10, 2023, 01:39:37 PMWow!  And I'm so sorry for your pain and ordeal.  May I ask as to why they did the scan?  And I'm glad that you're o.k.

All the best,

PD

There's a cautionary tale here. The scan that identified it was a CT scan on my back. In the background the aneurysm was partially visible and briefly mentioned in the report. I talked to my GP and got a full aortic scan. The thing with aneurysms is they are silent with no symptoms whatsoever. Without that back scan I'd have been blithely been walking around and then suddenly it bursts.

The procedure involved placing a special stent in my aorta. No pain but the after effects of the anaesthetic have left me somewhat fatigued.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 11, 2023, 02:49:52 AM
Quote from: Valentino on August 10, 2023, 07:20:18 PMI probably would if I was bald!
Just thinking that they might be a bit more comfortable that's all.  :)

Best,

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 11, 2023, 02:52:22 AM
Quote from: Holden on August 11, 2023, 01:49:29 AMThere's a cautionary tale here. The scan that identified it was a CT scan on my back. In the background the aneurysm was partially visible and briefly mentioned in the report. I talked to my GP and got a full aortic scan. The thing with aneurysms is they are silent with no symptoms whatsoever. Without that back scan I'd have been blithely been walking around and then suddenly it bursts.

The procedure involved placing a special stent in my aorta. No pain but the after effects of the anaesthetic have left me somewhat fatigued.
Glad that they caught it and that you are o.k.  Now rest up...that's an order.  ;)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on August 11, 2023, 07:10:53 AM
Quote from: Valentino on August 10, 2023, 12:36:22 AM(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/img_4229-jpeg.941380/)

Buying the Topping DX1 for the "office" was a smart move. The sound quality, small size, the convenience of USB power,  the price. Excellent combination. I listen to a lot more music now.
The Sennheiser 580 Presicion phones are 30 years old. Nothing wrong with them. I haven't lost my rather thick hair, so the missing cushions on the headband don't bother me at all.

I've seen dozens of photos of classical music engineers/producers/performers using HD580/600/650. It's impressive that Sennheiser essentially mimicked Harman's target curve (minus the bass boost) years before Olive's research. I've tried to find/ask Sennheiser info on their research but they're pretty mum about it.

When I lived in Ireland I found someone selling the real HD580 Jubilee (not the rename that drop.com has) with the faux carbon fiber wrap. It was basically what the HD600 was to become; closer matched driver version of the HD580. But instead of the marble wrap of the HD600 they used a carbon fiber design. All cosmetic differences only of course.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 11, 2023, 07:19:22 AM
Quote from: Zauberschloss on August 11, 2023, 07:10:53 AMWhen I lived in Ireland I found someone selling the real HD580 Jubilee (not the rename that drop.com has)

Glad to see that someone else realizes that the drop 58x is not a 580.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 09, 2023, 06:48:13 PM
For anyone here that has a high end system... does it sound like live music?  I ask because I was reminded again this evening how I've never heard a recording sound like it does live.  Especially the strings with their detailed sound and overtones, their airy but sweet tone never sounds the same when I listen on my stereo.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 09, 2023, 10:15:36 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 09, 2023, 06:48:13 PMFor anyone here that has a high end system... does it sound like live music?  I ask because I was reminded again this evening how I've never heard a recording sound like it does live.  Especially the strings with their detailed sound and overtones, their airy but sweet tone never sounds the same when I listen on my stereo.

At last we are talking about what distinguishes, or rather can distinguish, a well-matched sound system from an ordinary budget hi-fi. Yes. Naturalness of recorded sound transmission. But, it's all so unscientific that it's better not to start. After all, we have already been told, and repeatedly, that sophisticated components are just a marketing conspiracy, that all cables sound the same, etc. All electrons are equal and bits are bits, and so on 8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 10, 2023, 03:08:59 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on October 09, 2023, 10:15:36 PMAt last we are talking about what distinguishes, or rather can distinguish, a well-matched sound system from an ordinary budget hi-fi.

How do you define "ordinary budget hi-fi?" Well-matched sound system is easier to define: It is one where the components neutralize each others temperaments. For example: Using very directive speakers in a room that has inadequate acoustic treatment may give satisfactory results.

Quote from: AnotherSpin on October 09, 2023, 10:15:36 PMYes. Naturalness of recorded sound transmission.
In high fidelity the target is neutrality, that the system reproduces a recording as accurately as possible. Naturalness is a different kind of term and means the sound isn't necessarily accurate replication, but it sounds as it could be. For example I use cross-feed with headphones to make the spatial information in the (stereo or downmixed multichannel) recordings made for speakers sound more natural (in this case more binaural) with headphones.


Quote from: AnotherSpin on October 09, 2023, 10:15:36 PMBut, it's all so unscientific that it's better not to start. After all, we have already been told, and repeatedly, that sophisticated components are just a marketing conspiracy, that all cables sound the same, etc. All electrons are equal and bits are bits, and so on 8)

Sophisticated components is a way for businesses to operate on a specific market segment. It involves typically a lot of marketing (all kind of marketing BS), but is a conspiracy? Don't know about that!

Cables tend to sound the same and this has been demonstrated in proper blind listening tests. In certain cases cables may have an audible effect on the sound. For example using very thin and long speaker cables with speakers having very low impedance will audibly affect the sound, but it takes an audio moron to do something that stupid.

As far as the modern physics knows, all electrons are the same. In fact there has been theories about an idea where there is one ONE electron in the whole universe, but this one electron is traveling in time back an fort from the beginning of the Universe to the end of the Universe near infinite speech and each electron we "see" around us is one of those passings through the moment "now." This is perhaps just a fancy idea, but nevertheless, it is pretty safe to say all electrons are the same. There are no "audiophile electrons" as far as modern quantum physics knows.

Bits are bits in their information form, but in the physical representation form they are not 100 % exact copies of each other. That's why digital system needs to be build in a way that is immune to this. That's kind of the whole idea of digital audio: It can be made immune to small imperfections. If pulses over 0.7 volt are interpreted to be bit "1", it doesn't matter if one pulse is 0.82 volt and the next is 0.87 volts. Both are correctly interpreted to be bits "1".
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 10, 2023, 03:21:58 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2023, 03:08:59 AMHow do you define "ordinary budget hi-fi?" Well-matched sound system is easier to define: It is one where the components neutralize each others temperaments. For example: Using very directive speakers in a room that has inadequate acoustic treatment may give satisfactory results.
In high fidelity the target is neutrality, that the system reproduces a recording as accurately as possible. Naturalness is a different kind of term and means the sound isn't necessarily accurate replication, but it sounds as it could be. For example I use cross-feed with headphones to make the spatial information in the (stereo or downmixed multichannel) recordings made for speakers sound more natural (in this case more binaural) with headphones.


Sophisticated components is a way for businesses to operate on a specific market segment. It involves typically a lot of marketing (all kind of marketing BS), but is a conspiracy? Don't know about that!

Cables tend to sound the same and this has been demonstrated in proper blind listening tests. In certain cases cables may have an audible effect on the sound. For example using very thin and long speaker cables with speakers having very low impedance will audibly affect the sound, but it takes an audio moron to do something that stupid.

As far as the modern physics knows, all electrons are the same. In fact there has been theories about an idea where there is one ONE electron in the whole universe, but this one electron is traveling in time back an fort from the beginning of the Universe to the end of the Universe near infinite speech and each electron we "see" around us is one of those passings through the moment "now." This is perhaps just a fancy idea, but nevertheless, it is pretty safe to say all electrons are the same. There are no "audiophile electrons" as far as modern quantum physics knows.

Bits are bits in their information form, but in the physical representation form they are not 100 % exact copies of each other. That's why digital system needs to be build in a way that is immune to this. That's kind of the whole idea of digital audio: It can be made immune to small imperfections. If pulses over 0.7 volt are interpreted to be bit "1", it doesn't matter if one pulse is 0.82 volt and the next is 0.87 volts. Both are correctly interpreted to be bits "1".


Of course, of course.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on October 10, 2023, 03:25:39 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2023, 03:08:59 AMThere are no "audiophile electrons" as far as modern quantum physics knows.

:D  :D  :D

Very well said, Poju!


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 10, 2023, 04:25:38 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 09, 2023, 06:48:13 PMFor anyone here that has a high end system... does it sound like live music?  I ask because I was reminded again this evening how I've never heard a recording sound like it does live.  Especially the strings with their detailed sound and overtones, their airy but sweet tone never sounds the same when I listen on my stereo.

I don't of course own a high end system because I am not an oil sheikh, but I have heard very expensive high performance systems. My problem is I don't listen to music live*. I have been to only a couple of classical music concerts in my life. I don't remember well how they sound. That's why it isn't easy  for me to do comparison. However I can make some educated remarks on the topic.

1) Comparing live music to listening to a recordings at home is a bit silly to beging with. Most of the difference in the experiences comes from other things than the sound. They are fundamentally different kind of experiences. Both can be enjoyable in their own ways having different strengths and weaknesses.

2) The way music is recorded doesn't reflect the way people hear the music live. You pick up the sound with your two ears somewhere in the audience. A recording is done with a large number of microphones placed in various places, some near certain instrument, some further away to pick up the "room acoustics" and so on. The captured sound from all these microphones is then mixed (balanced, panned etc.) together. I have heard (on a sound science forum) from people who work in the recording and mixing industry as sound engineers, that they don't even try to make recordings sound the same live music sounds. They aim at as good recorded sound as possible instead. They understand how trying to capture the sound the way it is experienced live is a fools errand.

3) it is possible (speculation from my part based on everything I know and understand about the subject) that if you recorded live music with an artificial head or a Jecklin disk placed in the audience, you would come up with a binaural recording that would sound pretty convincing on headphones (artificial head recordings don't work well with speakers, but Jecklin disk recordings do), but the experience would still be lacking compared to real live situation and being there for yourself. Also, the recording would sound noisy (audience) and muddy compared to live experience, because our brain wouldn't understand why there is so much audience noise and acoustics of a big hall present when you listen to at your own living room. Our hearing is context based. Huge reverberation inside a cathedral is "natural", while the same reverberation experienced elsewhere would sound "weird." I have made binaural recording having small microphone capsules in my ears and walking outside home and then coming back home. The acoustics change a lot during the walk back home. At a doorway there is shower-like resonances etc. So, when listening to this recording sitting still at home with headphones, the sudden changes of acoustics feel MASSIVE and surprising, while when I actually come home, there is nothing weird, because my brain understands the acoustics can and even should change when I move. I believe there is a slight fluctuation of acoustics present in a live performance due to the collective small movements in the audience and things like this may contribute to sonic things such as airy overtones of strings you mentioned.

_________________________________
* Recently while getting into personality types, I learned that my personality type isn't into the type of things like live music, travelling etc. I don't "need" that strong experiences and such experiences can even be too intense for my senses as an autistic person. Listening to music at home limits the sensory load to a level that suites me well. No other people around. No going somewhere. Familiar environment (home). Just the music coming out of the speakers. I can handle that! For sensors this is a bit dull and they need more. So they go to EDM festivals or to an opera etc.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 10, 2023, 04:48:01 AM
It's funny to see how many words people waste to base their stern stance on things they have no clue about... Like high-end sound systems, but not only about them, of course. But, it's so human that it elicits nothing but compassion.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on October 10, 2023, 04:56:04 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2023, 04:25:38 AMComparing live music to listening to a recordings at home is a bit silly to beging with. Most of the difference in the experiences comes from other things than the sound. They are fundamentally different kind of experiences. Both can be enjoyable in their own ways having different strengths and weaknesses.

This is a very perceptive comment that goes straight to the heart of the matter.

The rest of the post is also excellent. You are in top form today, Poju!  :-*

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 10, 2023, 04:58:51 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2023, 04:56:04 AMThis is a very perceptive comment that goes straight to the heart of the matter.

The rest of the post is also excellent. You are in top form today, Poju!  :-*



On the contrary, it is not at all.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 10, 2023, 04:59:21 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on October 10, 2023, 04:48:01 AMIt's funny to see how many words people waste to base their stern stance on things they have no clue about... Like high-end sound systems, but not only about them, of course. But, it's so human that it elicits nothing but compassion.

Agreed!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on October 10, 2023, 05:01:20 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on October 10, 2023, 04:48:01 AMIt's funny to see how many words people waste to base their stern stance on things they have no clue about... Like high-end sound systems, but not only about them, of course. But, it's so human that it elicits nothing but compassion.

That's way too funny. According to you, a trained acoustics engineer who has been working in the field for decades has no clue about acoustics. Thanks for the chuckle, man.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 10, 2023, 05:23:45 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2023, 04:56:04 AMThis is a very perceptive comment that goes straight to the heart of the matter.

The rest of the post is also excellent. You are in top form today, Poju!  :-*

Thank you very much Andrei!  8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 10, 2023, 06:37:52 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2023, 05:01:20 AMThat's way too funny. According to you, a trained acoustics engineer who has been working in the field for decades has no clue about acoustics. Thanks for the chuckle, man.

Yeah, isn't it strange how people get educated in universities when all you need is to let placebo effect show you how a 20 times more expensive snake oil cable of course sounds better! Doesn't matter if science and proper double blind listening tests have time after time demonstrated otherwise (even speaker cables made out of coat hangers can sound just as good as expensive audiophile cables (https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/networking/coat-hanger-wire-is-just-as-good-as-a-high-quality-speaker-cable/) and in some cases even better if the audiophile cable has been deliberately made to change the signal just to sound different).

I'm not really offended by the post indicating I don't know what I'm talking about. I understand how Harry for example sees my posts. I'm sorry if they offend him, but I want to tell about the facts as accurately as I know them. I'm open to be corrected (of course there are people in the World from who I can learn more), but people here don't even try to correct me, because they clearly can't. All they can do is express I am wrong about everything, which is a bit silly considering my background.

I don't expect to change the minds of those who have locked the their brain and are unwilling to question their own beliefs. I write to provide information for those who are learning and willing to learn, or perhaps willing to change their mind.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 10, 2023, 08:11:39 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2023, 05:01:20 AMThat's way too funny. According to you, a trained acoustics engineer who has been working in the field for decades has no clue about acoustics. Thanks for the chuckle, man.

It is not about acoustics at all. But, as I told already, I see no base for discussion. And I don't mind at all if acousticians, scientists, etc. remain within the bounds of their perceptions forever ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 10, 2023, 08:15:11 AM
Quote from: Harry on October 10, 2023, 04:59:21 AMAgreed!

BTW, Harry, I haven't had a chance to ask about your new Nordost cables, I remember you mentioning the order some time ago. Are you happy with the upgrade?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 10, 2023, 08:33:24 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on October 10, 2023, 08:15:11 AMBTW, Harry, I haven't had a chance to ask about your new Nordost cables, I remember you mentioning the order some time ago. Are you happy with the upgrade?

Yes, it made quite a difference, much more detail, presence and even a lot more control, plus acoustically it creates an amazing aural vision.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 10, 2023, 08:59:39 AM
Quote from: Harry on October 10, 2023, 08:33:24 AMmuch more detail,
What is detail? If you increase the sharpness of your TV picture, is it more detailed or is it the same level of detail made to appear more detailed to eyes? Defining detail is surprisingly hard to do. I can't give good definition for detail despite of giving a lot of thought to these things.

Quote from: Harry on October 10, 2023, 08:33:24 AMpresence
Presence is also a term hard to define. I suppose it is a feeling rather than a sonic signature?

Quote from: Harry on October 10, 2023, 08:33:24 AMand even a lot more control,
As an engineer I say you need external energy to control something. How can a passive component (cable) control anything? All it can do is not ruin the controlling done by an active component such as an amplifier. Luckily a basic proper cable does that, because audio frequencies are very easy (low). Things get harder when you get to megahertz area or higher.

Quote from: Harry on October 10, 2023, 08:33:24 AMplus acoustically it creates an amazing aural vision.
I ask how? Spatiality in audio is based on signal differences in different audio channels. I doubt the cable has some kind of intelligence allowing it analyse the signal in different channels and modify them together in a way that gives human beings "amazing aural visio."

Science explains these aural visions and feeling of presence and control and all the other claims of improvement as psychological effect caused by confirmation bias and placebo effect.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: premont on October 10, 2023, 10:00:41 AM
Different people have different ways of describing the quality of a HIFI system, but I think that it can be boiled down to what sounds most natural in one's living room when compared to a similar concert at a suitable venue. This can at least be objectified to some extent.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 10, 2023, 10:25:58 AM
I foolishly wasn't expecting to reignite the old debate!  I was really just curious if those with high end systems achieved audiophile nirvana... a system that sounds comparable to live because while I greatly enjoy my $5k stereo, it is not it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 10, 2023, 10:41:27 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 10, 2023, 10:25:58 AMI foolishly wasn't expecting to reignite the old debate!|

Old debates are flammable and so easily reignited! :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 10, 2023, 10:43:09 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 10, 2023, 10:25:58 AMI foolishly wasn't expecting to reignite the old debate!  I was really just curious if those with high end systems achieved audiophile nirvana... a system that sounds comparable to live because while I greatly enjoy my $5k stereo, it is not it.
I suspect that you can't really...totally.  A live experience (like in a club or in a theatre or outside) will all have different (not certain of the word) audio interactions as in shape of the room, acoustics, where you were seated at (or standing), etc.  Plus then you have to factor in your own room, etc.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 10, 2023, 10:45:41 AM
Quote from: Harry on October 10, 2023, 08:33:24 AMYes, it made quite a difference, much more detail, presence and even a lot more control, plus acoustically it creates an amazing aural vision.

At one time I used Nordost cables throughout the system, including cables for speakers, components and usb. So I can understand your assessment, even though my cables were not top-of-the-line. I can only guess what kind of miracles should be expected from the company's best products!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 10, 2023, 10:49:59 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 10, 2023, 10:25:58 AMI foolishly wasn't expecting to reignite the old debate!  I was really just curious if those with high end systems achieved audiophile nirvana... a system that sounds comparable to live because while I greatly enjoy my $5k stereo, it is not it.

You do not need audio to attain nirvana. You are nirvana, only your mind prevents you from realising it :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 10, 2023, 10:51:33 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2023, 08:59:39 AMWhat is detail? If you increase the sharpness of your TV picture, is it more detailed or is it the same level of detail made to appear more detailed to eyes? Defining detail is surprisingly hard to do. I can't give good definition for detail despite of giving a lot of thought to these things.
Presence is also a term hard to define. I suppose it is a feeling rather than a sonic signature?
As an engineer I say you need external energy to control something. How can a passive component (cable) control anything? All it can do is not ruin the controlling done by an active component such as an amplifier. Luckily a basic proper cable does that, because audio frequencies are very easy (low). Things get harder when you get to megahertz area or higher.
I ask how? Spatiality in audio is based on signal differences in different audio channels. I doubt the cable has some kind of intelligence allowing it analyse the signal in different channels and modify them together in a way that gives human beings "amazing aural visio."

Science explains these aural visions and feeling of presence and control and all the other claims of improvement as psychological effect caused by confirmation bias and placebo effect.

Ohh Stop it Poju, you are getting tiresome, and I quickly loose my respect for you!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 10, 2023, 10:54:57 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on October 10, 2023, 10:45:41 AMAt one time I used Nordost cables throughout the system, including cables for speakers, components and usb. So I can understand your assessment, even though my cables were not top-of-the-line. I can only guess what kind of miracles should be expected from the company's best products!

It cost me a leg and a arm, but I bought the best Nordost cables made to this date, and I am in aural heaven.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 10, 2023, 11:13:19 AM
Quote from: Harry on October 10, 2023, 10:51:33 AMOhh Stop it Poju, you are getting tiresome, and I quickly loose my respect for you!

Well loose your respect for me then! I am not entitled to have your or anyone else's respect. I can't please everyone. I have chosen team science decades ago and I'm not planning to change that.

You are spouting audio-related nonsense from my perspective and I am allowed to counter that with my arguments in a respectful manner. I am not attacking you as a person. You are a very nice good person. You have massive insight about tons of classical recordings (your real strength), but when it comes to audio, your views come out as someone's who has fallen a bit too much into audiophile marketing BS.

I'd be happy to debate with you about these things, but you don't seem to be able to do so. Instead you resort to telling me I'm wrong about everything or you even tell me to shut up.

Hint: If you write you are happy with your Nordost cables, I have nothing to say against that, because who am I to say you aren't happy owning and using them? It is the "pricy cables just magically improve the sound" stuff I have to counter with more scientific facts.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 10, 2023, 11:52:53 AM
Quote from: Harry on October 10, 2023, 08:33:24 AMYes, it made quite a difference, much more detail, presence and even a lot more control, plus acoustically it creates an amazing aural vision.
All that matters is that you're happy and enjoying your music.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 10, 2023, 01:00:55 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2023, 11:13:19 AMWell loose your respect for me then! I am not entitled to have your or anyone else's respect. I can't please everyone. I have chosen team science decades ago and I'm not planning to change that.

You are spouting audio-related nonsense from my perspective and I am allowed to counter that with my arguments in a respectful manner. I am not attacking you as a person. You are a very nice good person. You have massive insight about tons of classical recordings (your real strength), but when it comes to audio, your views come out as someone's who has fallen a bit too much into audiophile marketing BS.

I'd be happy to debate with you about these things, but you don't seem to be able to do so. Instead you resort to telling me I'm wrong about everything or you even tell me to shut up.

Hint: If you write you are happy with your Nordost cables, I have nothing to say against that, because who am I to say you aren't happy owning and using them? It is the "pricy cables just magically improve the sound" stuff I have to counter with more scientific facts.

You already made your point a thousand times, enough is enough Poju.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 11, 2023, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: Harry on October 10, 2023, 01:00:55 PMYou already made your point a thousand times, enough is enough Poju.

That's how people's minds work, there's nothing you can do about it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 11, 2023, 05:30:03 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on October 11, 2023, 12:06:20 AMThat's how people's minds work, there's nothing you can do about it.

What can you do to address how your mind works? :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 11, 2023, 07:45:18 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 11, 2023, 05:30:03 AMWhat can you do to address how your mind works? :)

I don't understand your question.

In any case, all minds work in the same way, mine included. When I say that the only valid response is compassion, I also mean compassion for myself.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 11, 2023, 11:15:00 AM
I feel like weakening my participation on this forum.
Somewhere else I might feel less being persona no grata.
You won't lose anything, because according to Harry
I have said my points a thousand times already.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 11, 2023, 11:54:03 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2023, 11:15:00 AMI feel like weakening my participation on this forum.
Somewhere else I might feel less being persona no grata.
You won't lose anything, because according to Harry
I have said my points a thousand times already.

Maybe if he would think about your evidence based comments instead of summarily dismissing them you wouldn't have to repeat yourself so often. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 11, 2023, 02:47:29 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2023, 11:15:00 AMI feel like weakening my participation on this forum.
Somewhere else I might feel less being persona no grata.
You won't lose anything, because according to Harry
I have said my points a thousand times already.

We've all said our points a thousand times on all topics.  We're old farts that get on each others nerves because we've been saying the same things for like twenty years now. 

By now you shouldn't even be surprised that Harry wants you to give it a rest.  You have diametrically opposite views on audio gear.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 11, 2023, 02:49:19 PM
This morning I took some care in moving my couch way into the room and I removed the speaker grills from the speakers.  While not as great as a live concert, having that near field experience greatly improved the clarity and detail.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2023, 02:58:20 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 11, 2023, 02:49:19 PMThis morning I took some care in moving my couch way into the room and I removed the speaker grills from the speakers.  While not as great as a live concert, having that near field experience greatly improved the clarity and detail.
So, do you think that you will leave your room this way?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 11, 2023, 03:01:45 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2023, 02:58:20 PMSo, do you think that you will leave your room this way?

PD

lol no!  I moved the couch back.  I can't have the couch in the middle of the room, it's multi-purpose living room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2023, 03:05:52 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 11, 2023, 03:01:45 PMlol no!  I moved the couch back.  I can't have the couch in the middle of the room, it's multi-purpose living room.
I suspected as much, but you never know!  ;)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 11, 2023, 03:33:08 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2023, 03:05:52 PMI suspected as much, but you never know!  ;)

PD

Put it on tracks.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 11, 2023, 09:06:36 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 11, 2023, 02:49:19 PMThis morning I took some care in moving my couch way into the room and I removed the speaker grills from the speakers.  While not as great as a live concert, having that near field experience greatly improved the clarity and detail.

You may want to try George Cardas ideas on speaker placement based to Golden Ratio.

https://www.cardas.com/system-setup

(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/840d88_435bb78c168e42aaa0c83cfefa3250c7~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_1440,h_816,al_c,q_90,enc_auto/840d88_435bb78c168e42aaa0c83cfefa3250c7~mv2.png)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 11, 2023, 09:11:40 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2023, 11:15:00 AMI feel like weakening my participation on this forum.
Somewhere else I might feel less being persona no grata.
You won't lose anything, because according to Harry
I have said my points a thousand times already.

You shouldn't take offence. You won't prove anything to others or to yourself. Experience beats points.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 11, 2023, 11:31:11 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 11, 2023, 11:15:00 AMI feel like weakening my participation on this forum.
Somewhere else I might feel less being persona no grata.
You won't lose anything, because according to Harry
I have said my points a thousand times already.
We appreciate your contributions here.  It's just sometimes learning (and I am not saying that it's always easy) to learn to back off on topics/points of view and let it be.

Meant with kindness,

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 12, 2023, 06:15:19 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on October 11, 2023, 09:06:36 PMYou may want to try George Cardas ideas on speaker placement based to Golden Ratio.

https://www.cardas.com/system-setup

(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/840d88_435bb78c168e42aaa0c83cfefa3250c7~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_1440,h_816,al_c,q_90,enc_auto/840d88_435bb78c168e42aaa0c83cfefa3250c7~mv2.png)

I think I might have accidentally did that and that is why it sounded so exceptionally clear yesterday.  I might measure and see tonight.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 12, 2023, 06:17:50 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 12, 2023, 06:15:19 AMI think I might have accidentally did that and that is why it sounded so exceptionally clear yesterday.  I might measure and see tonight.

In fact, I used Cardas ideas on this for many years, worked for me.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Steinway D on October 22, 2023, 08:59:19 AM
This is my audio system, which gives me great pleasure, so I don't feel the need to upgrade for the foreseeable future. (I am considering adding a turntable back in my system at some point.)

Harbeth M40.3 XD speakers on Skylan stands
Modwright KWH 225i hybrid integrated amp ("hybrid" in this case means a tube preamp and SS power amp)
Marantz SA-10 SACD/CD player
HiFiMan HE1000 V2 headphones
Lehmannaudio Linear headphone amplifier
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on October 22, 2023, 01:39:51 PM
Quote from: Steinway D on October 22, 2023, 08:59:19 AMThis is my audio system, which gives me great pleasure, so I don't feel the need to upgrade for the foreseeable future. (I am considering adding a turntable back in my system at some point.)

Harbeth M40.3 XD speakers on Skylan stands
Modwright KWH 225i hybrid integrated amp ("hybrid" in this case means a tube preamp and SS power amp)
Marantz SA-10 SACD/CD player
HiFiMan HE1000 V2 headphones
Lehmannaudio Linear headphone amplifier


I'm the other way round with a SS pre and tube power. Not purist but if it sounds good who cares.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Steinway D on October 22, 2023, 02:37:38 PM
Quote from: Irons on October 22, 2023, 01:39:51 PMI'm the other way round with a SS pre and tube power. Not purist but if it sounds good who cares.

Is it an integrated amp or separate components? I don't think I've heard of an integrated with a SS preamp and tube power amp.
 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on October 23, 2023, 10:21:12 AM
Audio Research I/50 is one.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on November 10, 2023, 08:04:08 AM
I've been out of the loop on espresso stuff, I watched a Youtube review of a Kafatek 98 mm flat burr grinder*, now I'm getting a bunch of these recommendations in my main feed and shorts. Espresso people have reached audiophile status for the amount of disdain they get in these video's comments!

*weighs 33 lbs, more than my damn carbon full suspension mountain bike, which is not a light trail/enduro style of bike.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 10, 2023, 09:28:43 AM
Quote from: Atriod on November 10, 2023, 08:04:08 AMI've been out of the loop on espresso stuff, I watched a Youtube review of a Kafatek 98 mm flat burr grinder*, now I'm getting a bunch of these recommendations in my main feed and shorts. Espresso people have reached audiophile status for the amount of disdain they get in these video's comments!

*weighs 33 lbs, more than my damn carbon full suspension mountain bike, which is not a light trail/enduro style of bike.
lol  I do love a good cup of coffee, that said, I just use your basic Cuisinart one which has a number of settings from course to very fine.  It's held up well for me for probably about 15 years?  Kitchen space is currently at a premium--and I have (probably) way too many appliances/pots and pans/and toys.

Do you have one of those "fancy" Italian espresso machines?   :) Some friends of mine have one (a gift from one brother to the husband).  I was staying at their house overnight and the husband was quite vexed with his wife when she forgot and put regular tap water into it.

Anyway, I'm digressing.

My CD/DVD/SACD, etc. player is currently at the repair shot.  Hoping that it can be repaired as it's quite nice.  Fewer and fewer repair people to be found these days.  He showed me the stack of repair slips that he had (a lot--besides audio equipment, he also repairs televisions), so it will be probably several more weeks before he can even take a look at it and then get back to me with his diagnosis.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on November 10, 2023, 09:37:31 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 10, 2023, 09:28:43 AMlol  I do love a good cup of coffee, that said, I just use your basic Cuisinart one which has a number of settings from course to very fine.  It's held up well for me for probably about 15 years?  Kitchen space is currently at a premium--and I have (probably) way too many appliances/pots and pans/and toys.

Do you have one of those "fancy" Italian espresso machines?   :) Some friends of mine have one (a gift from one brother to the husband).  I was staying at their house overnight and the husband was quite vexed with his wife when she forgot and put regular tap water into it.

Anyway, I'm digressing.

My CD/DVD/SACD, etc. player is currently at the repair shot.  Hoping that it can be repaired as it's quite nice.  Fewer and fewer repair people to be found these days.  He showed me the stack of repair slips that he had (a lot--besides audio equipment, he also repairs televisions), so it will be probably several more weeks before he can even take a look at it and then get back to me with his diagnosis.

PD

I have an Olympia Cremina, close enough to Italy  :laugh: In my opinion Americans have taken over as the kings of espresso with what Slayer and Decent have done.

Hope the repair on your CD player was a simple fix and you'll be able to listen to music soon enough.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 10, 2023, 09:48:13 AM
Quote from: Atriod on November 10, 2023, 09:37:31 AMI have an Olympia Cremina, close enough to Italy  :laugh: In my opinion Americans have taken over as the kings of espresso with what Slayer and Decent have done.

Hope the repair on your CD player was a simple fix and you'll be able to listen to music soon enough.
Oh, nice!  :)

And thank you.  At the moment, it's either listen in my kitchen (normally while cooking) on an inexpensive radio/CD player (which is handy to have) or on my Ye Olde Stereo System (upstairs) or via computer or haul out some vinyl to play on my Rega.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on November 10, 2023, 01:04:51 PM
Quote from: Atriod on November 10, 2023, 08:04:08 AMI've been out of the loop on espresso stuff, I watched a Youtube review of a Kafatek 98 mm flat burr grinder*, now I'm getting a bunch of these recommendations in my main feed and shorts. Espresso people have reached audiophile status for the amount of disdain they get in these video's comments!

*weighs 33 lbs, more than my damn carbon full suspension mountain bike, which is not a light trail/enduro style of bike.

They also don't like cold brew coffee nor dark roasts!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on November 10, 2023, 07:41:17 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 10, 2023, 09:48:13 AMOh, nice!  :)

And thank you.  At the moment, it's either listen in my kitchen (normally while cooking) on an inexpensive radio/CD player (which is handy to have) or on my Ye Olde Stereo System (upstairs) or via computer or haul out some vinyl to play on my Rega.

PD

What CD player is in for repair?

Quote from: DavidW on November 10, 2023, 01:04:51 PMThey also don't like cold brew coffee nor dark roasts!

The skew towards light roasts is a somewhat recent trend, I only drink light roasts these days but before this espresso tended to be roasted at least medium. We have such incredible extractions these days that I see no need to ever go beyond light when I'm getting a ton of complexity. And the richer notes you'd expect from darker roasts.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 11, 2023, 08:30:58 AM
Quote from: Atriod on November 10, 2023, 07:41:17 PMWhat CD player is in for repair?
It's this one--Pioneer DV-79AVi-S (I suspect that the "S" is for silver as mine is vs. in black).

https://www.stereotimes.com/post/the-pioneer-elite-dv-79avi-universal-disc-player/

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on November 11, 2023, 12:23:23 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 11, 2023, 08:30:58 AMIt's this one--Pioneer DV-79AVi-S (I suspect that the "S" is for silver as mine is vs. in black).

https://www.stereotimes.com/post/the-pioneer-elite-dv-79avi-universal-disc-player/

PD


Some of the repair centers in the US are liquidating laser assemblies for disc players. If you like the sound of the player: https://www.ebay.com/itm/362336772972

I've replaced one in a 5400ES SACD player for a friend, I think it was only ~$40 on Ebay and doubled the life of it after it started having some issues recognizing hybrid SACDs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 11, 2023, 01:40:11 PM
Quote from: Atriod on November 11, 2023, 12:23:23 PMSome of the repair centers in the US are liquidating laser assemblies for disc players. If you like the sound of the player: https://www.ebay.com/itm/362336772972

I've replaced one in a 5400ES SACD player for a friend, I think it was only ~$40 on Ebay and doubled the life of it after it started having some issues recognizing hybrid SACDs.
Thanks for the link!  It might not be a bad idea to have a spare one on hand.  I copied down the information for my repair guy.  :)

My player was not wanting to open (as in when you push the open button, the tray doesn't pop out).  I was able to get it to open a couple of times (once by unplugging it and waiting a minute).  I also tried a few days later:  powered it up; the tray came out once but wouldn't do it on a repeat.  Not certain what's going on in there.   :(

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 11, 2023, 06:53:42 PM
Quote from: Atriod on November 10, 2023, 07:41:17 PMWhat CD player is in for repair?

Out of curiosity, did you need to solder anything or was it all about screws...or what?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on November 12, 2023, 05:00:34 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 11, 2023, 06:53:42 PMOut of curiosity, did you need to solder anything or was it all about screws...or what?

PD

There was no soldering for this player, alignment would have been an issue if it didn't read discs after replacement but it worked fine.
Title: Re: Audio
Post by: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 05:44:16 AM
OK, this is not a headphone question but I couldn't find a general hi-fi thread (although I'm sure that one exists).
My amplifier (NAD) is packing up and keeps cutting out. If I thump the amplifier with my fist it works again...for a while. Obviously a loose connection somewhere. I can't afford a top-of-the-range system but am thinking of getting a Cambridge Audio Amp at about £400.00. My CD player is NAD and my speakers are Wharfedale Diamonds. I'm happy with the sound. Any comments please?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 18, 2023, 07:10:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 05:44:16 AMOK, this is not a headphone question but I couldn't find a general hi-fi thread (although I'm sure that one exists).
My amplifier (NAD) is packing up and keeps cutting out. If I thump the amplifier with my fist it works again...for a while. Obviously a loose connection somewhere. I can't afford a top-of-the-range system but am thinking of getting a Cambridge Audio Amp at about £400.00. My CD player is NAD and my speakers are Wharfedale Diamonds. I'm happy with the sound. Any comments please?
I missed seeing your other reply here; I answered it in the headphones area!  lol  I'll copy it here

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on November 18, 2023, 07:12:19 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 05:44:16 AMOK, this is not a headphone question but I couldn't find a general hi-fi thread (although I'm sure that one exists).
My amplifier (NAD) is packing up and keeps cutting out. If I thump the amplifier with my fist it works again...for a while. Obviously a loose connection somewhere. I can't afford a top-of-the-range system but am thinking of getting a Cambridge Audio Amp at about £400.00. My CD player is NAD and my speakers are Wharfedale Diamonds. I'm happy with the sound. Any comments please?

If your not willing to repair the NAD, a Cambridge amp is in the same range as what you have now, but sounds different, that's all. I think you will like this AMP Jeffrey! If possible try to upgrade your interlinks and loudspeaker cable, Try Blue Haven from Nordost, many are second hand available for very affordable prices. Your amp and speakers will benefit hugely.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 18, 2023, 07:12:58 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 05:44:16 AMOK, this is not a headphone question but I couldn't find a general hi-fi thread (although I'm sure that one exists).
My amplifier (NAD) is packing up and keeps cutting out. If I thump the amplifier with my fist it works again...for a while. Obviously a loose connection somewhere. I can't afford a top-of-the-range system but am thinking of getting a Cambridge Audio Amp at about £400.00. My CD player is NAD and my speakers are Wharfedale Diamonds. I'm happy with the sound. Any comments please?


Hello,

Well, I consulted with a friend of mine who has lots of audio equipment (and constantly has his head in music catalogues)...and also know that he likes NAD and Cambridge Audio equipment [and has owned both brands in the past].  He suggested a few things like Cambridge Audio AXA35  https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/products/hi-fi/amplifiers/integrated

I mentioned that you had considered getting a turntable in the past.  This one also has a built in phono stage, so you would be all set to go should you buy a turntable.

Another option:  NAD C316BEE  https://www.crutchfield.com/S-wkY1LYcOWai/p_745C316V2/NAD-C316BEE-V2.html

When I read him your post, he suggested that you might try purchasing some contact cleaner, remove the cover of your equipment and try spraying the various contacts just behind the faceplate and that might help too.  If that didn't, personally I would try asking around for a decent repair place near you and seeing if they could fix it (and if it would be worthwhile to pay for doing so).  You would then have a backup one (or perhaps one to bring out to your mancave.  ;) ). In the meantime, stop the audio abuse!  ;D

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on November 18, 2023, 07:16:08 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 05:44:16 AMOK, this is not a headphone question but I couldn't find a general hi-fi thread (although I'm sure that one exists).
My amplifier (NAD) is packing up and keeps cutting out. If I thump the amplifier with my fist it works again...for a while. Obviously a loose connection somewhere. I can't afford a top-of-the-range system but am thinking of getting a Cambridge Audio Amp at about £400.00. My CD player is NAD and my speakers are Wharfedale Diamonds. I'm happy with the sound. Any comments please?

     There's a Black Friday sale on the AXA35 integrated amp for £299.00 on the website.

     The 316BEEv2 is also £299.

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 09:01:05 AM
Quote from: drogulus on November 18, 2023, 07:16:08 AMThere's a Black Friday sale on the AXA35 integrated amp for £299.00 on the website.

     The 316BEEv2 is also £299.

     
Many thanks  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 09:05:13 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 18, 2023, 07:12:58 AMHello,

Well, I consulted with a friend of mine who has lots of audio equipment (and constantly has his head in music catalogues)...and also know that he likes NAD and Cambridge Audio equipment [and has owned both brands in the past].  He suggested a few things like Cambridge Audio AXA35  https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/products/hi-fi/amplifiers/integrated

I mentioned that you had considered getting a turntable in the past.  This one also has a built in phono stage, so you would be all set to go should you buy a turntable.

Another option:  NAD C316BEE  https://www.crutchfield.com/S-wkY1LYcOWai/p_745C316V2/NAD-C316BEE-V2.html

When I read him your post, he suggested that you might try purchasing some contact cleaner, remove the cover of your equipment and try spraying the various contacts just behind the faceplate and that might help too.  If that didn't, personally I would try asking around for a decent repair place near you and seeing if they could fix it (and if it would be worthwhile to pay for doing so).  You would then have a backup one (or perhaps one to bring out to your mancave.  ;) ). In the meantime, stop the audio abuse!  ;D

PD
Thanks v much PD. Greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 09:06:45 AM
Quote from: Harry on November 18, 2023, 07:12:19 AMIf your not willing to repair the NAD, a Cambridge amp is in the same range as what you have now, but sounds different, that's all. I think you will like this AMP Jeffrey! If possible try to upgrade your interlinks and loudspeaker cable, Try Blue Haven from Nordost, many are second hand available for very affordable prices. Your amp and speakers will benefit hugely.
Many thanks Harry.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 18, 2023, 09:18:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 09:05:13 AMThanks v much PD. Greatly appreciated.
You are very welcome Jeffrey.  Hope that it helps and that you figure it out to your satisfaction.  And (I should have also mentioned it and thank you to @drogulus ), there are sales going on now, so check at your end.  My links did show the sales prices, but I should have also mentioned that.  Both of the models that I had brought up are on sale--at least for the short term (don't know how long...if interested, ask/do your research).  You might also try checking out some reviews...or perhaps you might be able to test-listen to them.  It can be hard though to compare when you're dealing with different (and also older) components and what your listening area is like.

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 09:37:04 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 18, 2023, 09:18:00 AMYou are very welcome Jeffrey.  Hope that it helps and that you figure it out to your satisfaction.  And (I should have also mentioned it and thank you to @drogulus ), there are sales going on now, so check at your end.  My links did show the sales prices, but I should have also mentioned that.  Both of the models that I had brought up are on sale--at least for the short term (don't know how long...if interested, ask/do your research).  You might also try checking out some reviews...or perhaps you might be able to test-listen to them.  It can be hard though to compare when you're dealing with different (and also older) components and what your listening area is like.

Best wishes,

PD
Again, many thanks.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on November 18, 2023, 09:38:12 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 05:44:16 AMMy amplifier (NAD) is packing up and keeps cutting out. If I thump the amplifier with my fist it works again...for a while. Obviously a loose connection somewhere.

Certainly sounds that way. It may also be something short circuiting somewhere and triggering the protection relay.

First check your speaker cables for accidental short circuits. Are there any strands of wire touching the wrong terminal/cable? This can happen quite easily. Check both ends of the cable. While doing it make sure the connection is firm.

If you don't find/fix the fault that way, some dirt might have entered the amp causing these short circuits. Opening the unit (when the unit is NOT connected to the mains!) and cleaning it from dirt/dust may help. Clean amp also run cooler.

If these don't help then the problem is more complex.  :(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 10:19:06 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 18, 2023, 09:38:12 AMCertainly sounds that way. It may also be something short circuiting somewhere and triggering the protection relay.

First check your speaker cables for accidental short circuits. Are there any strands of wire touching the wrong terminal/cable? This can happen quite easily. Check both ends of the cable. While doing it make sure the connection is firm.

If you don't find/fix the fault that way, some dirt might have entered the amp causing these short circuits. Opening the unit (when the unit is NOT connected to the mains!) and cleaning it from dirt/dust may help. Clean amp also run cooler.

If these don't help then the problem is more complex.  :(
V many thanks for the helpful advice 71 dB.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on November 18, 2023, 10:28:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 05:44:16 AMOK, this is not a headphone question but I couldn't find a general hi-fi thread (although I'm sure that one exists).
My amplifier (NAD) is packing up and keeps cutting out. If I thump the amplifier with my fist it works again...for a while. Obviously a loose connection somewhere. I can't afford a top-of-the-range system but am thinking of getting a Cambridge Audio Amp at about £400.00. My CD player is NAD and my speakers are Wharfedale Diamonds. I'm happy with the sound. Any comments please?

I had an NAD power amplifier (model 2200 maybe). In that unit there is a pair of relays that connect the output once power capacitors are charged. That's why you hear a faint "click" a few seconds after the power is turned on. My unit had similar behavior, intermittent cutting out. Basically those relays deteriorate, producing intermittent contact.

I looked up the part number, and apparently NAD (which was known for good value for the money) used an automotive relay intended for controlling headlights. Unfortunately the part was long discontinued. Your unit may have something similar. An audio repair shop should be able to fine a compatible part and replace them. I think it's a $5 part, but there will be cost for labor.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 11:10:34 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 18, 2023, 10:28:01 AMI had an NAD power amplifier (model 2200 maybe). In that unit there is a pair of relays that connect the output once power capacitors are charged. That's why you hear a faint "click" a few seconds after the power is turned on. My unit had similar behavior, intermittent cutting out. Basically those relays deteriorate, producing intermittent contact.

I looked up the part number, and apparently NAD (which was known for good value for the money) used an automotive relay intended for controlling headlights. Unfortunately the part was long discontinued. Your unit may have something similar. An audio repair shop should be able to fine a compatible part and replace them. I think it's a $5 part, but there will be cost for labor.
Thank you and the others for the super-kind and thoughtful responses. I recently took my CD player in for repair (it was still under warranty) it took forever as the part had to come from Canada. My amp is very old and I bough it S/H anyway so, when it finally gives up the ghost (it's working at the moment) I will probably go for the Cambridge Audio amp.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on November 18, 2023, 11:26:34 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 11:10:34 AMThank you and the others for the super-kind and thoughtful responses. I recently took my CD player in for repair (it was still under warranty) it took forever as the part had to come from Canada. My amp is very old and I bough it S/H anyway so, when it finally gives up the ghost (it's working at the moment) I will probably go for the Cambridge Audio amp.

That would be a reasonable course of action. Your old amp would be a different experience than the CD player. Not a very specific part required, but just a relay with similar current and voltage rating that a technician would pick up in a local electrical supply house and solder in. But the likelihood is that your ancient amp has other electromechanical components - switches, potentiometers, capacitors - that are at the end of their useful lifespan and ready to go next.

My only question is, why wait, and torture yourself with an intermittently failing unit?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 18, 2023, 01:51:03 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 11:10:34 AMThank you and the others for the super-kind and thoughtful responses. I recently took my CD player in for repair (it was still under warranty) it took forever as the part had to come from Canada. My amp is very old and I bough it S/H anyway so, when it finally gives up the ghost (it's working at the moment) I will probably go for the Cambridge Audio amp.
Here in the States, from what I've experienced, it's basically about $65 for the diagnosis and then could go up from there (though I suspect/think from what I've heard  that if it's an easy repair and doesn't require an expensive part and a lot of hands on time  that that could also included the repair).

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 19, 2023, 05:30:42 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 18, 2023, 11:26:34 AMThat would be a reasonable course of action. Your old amp would be a different experience than the CD player. Not a very specific part required, but just a relay with similar current and voltage rating that a technician would pick up in a local electrical supply house and solder in. But the likelihood is that your ancient amp has other electromechanical components - switches, potentiometers, capacitors - that are at the end of their useful lifespan and ready to go next.

My only question is, why wait, and torture yourself with an intermittently failing unit?

Oh, but isn't that part of the fun of owning "stuff"?  ;)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on November 19, 2023, 07:30:09 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 18, 2023, 11:10:34 AMThank you and the others for the super-kind and thoughtful responses. I recently took my CD player in for repair (it was still under warranty) it took forever as the part had to come from Canada. My amp is very old and I bough it S/H anyway so, when it finally gives up the ghost (it's working at the moment) I will probably go for the Cambridge Audio amp.

Plenty of second-hand audio equipment at reasonable prices here, Jeffrey.

https://www.retrotechaudio.co.uk/currently-for-sale.html

Based in Caterham close to a M.25 junction.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on November 19, 2023, 11:28:30 PM
Quote from: Irons on November 19, 2023, 07:30:09 AMPlenty of second-hand audio equipment at reasonable prices here, Jeffrey.

https://www.retrotechaudio.co.uk/currently-for-sale.html

Based in Caterham close to a M.25 junction.
Interesting! Thanks Lol  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: ando on November 24, 2023, 12:43:39 PM
Contemplating a Klipsch 9s purchase. Anyone have them? They're something of a throwback, style-wise. I'm looking for an exceptional pair of modest looking, preferably wood-cased floor speakers with plenty of bass. I was trying to get my hands on a pair of Realistic Mach One 4029s but perhaps I should be looking forward...


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 24, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
Quote from: ando on November 24, 2023, 12:43:39 PMContemplating a Klipsch 9s purchase. Anyone have them? They're something of a throwback, style-wise. I'm looking for an exceptional pair of modest looking, preferably wood-cased floor speakers with plenty of bass. I was trying to get my hands on a pair of Realistic Mach One 4029s but perhaps I should be looking forward...


They measure well:


but have very narrow dispersion compared to most speakers.  They have a dispersion of about +/- 30 degrees, whereas +/- 50 degrees is more typical with most speakers.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/7dyy5y0vzdxa11c/Klipsch%20The%20Nines_360_Horizontal_Polar.png?dl=0)

(from https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/klipsch_the_nines/ )

That is, they don't send much sound toward the side walls to be reflected back to the listener, which is what gives a sense of a wider soundstage with some speakers.  Good if you can't avoid putting the speakers close to the side walls, or if you prefer a more precise sound with less room reflections.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: ando on November 24, 2023, 03:47:26 PM
Quote from: Daverz on November 24, 2023, 03:24:40 PMThey measure well:


but have very narrow dispersion compared to most speakers.  They have a dispersion of about +/- 30 degrees, whereas +/- 50 degrees is more typical with most speakers.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/7dyy5y0vzdxa11c/Klipsch%20The%20Nines_360_Horizontal_Polar.png?dl=0)

(from https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/klipsch_the_nines/ )

That is, they don't send much sound toward the side walls to be reflected back to the listener, which is what gives a sense of a wider soundstage with some speakers.  Good if you can't avoid putting the speakers close to the side walls, or if you prefer a more precise sound with less room reflections.
That's exactly what I'm going for (I've got smaller, supplemental speakers to create a wider spectrum of sound.) Also, there's a 20% off Black Friday sale for them on Amazon. Thanks!! 👍
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on November 24, 2023, 03:57:27 PM
Quote from: ando on November 24, 2023, 12:43:39 PMContemplating a Klipsch 9s purchase. Anyone have them? They're something of a throwback, style-wise. I'm looking for an exceptional pair of modest looking, preferably wood-cased floor speakers with plenty of bass.

Just one thing... they look like stand-mounts, not floor-standers.

I'm sure you saw this, but also they are powered and not passive.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mookalafalas on November 30, 2023, 11:45:29 PM
OK. Here's a weird outside post. A pair of $35 Speakers. I have 3 sets of "serious Speakers" in various rooms, with regular amps and systems. I use these little guys with my laptop when I've been chased away from the living room, den etc, and into my little hidey-hole by my wife and kids. BUT, when positioned right, these tiny fellas are quite remarkable. Each is actually a 2-way speaker, with a small bass in the back, and create a crazy-full sound in proportion to their size and price. Hopefully, no one will need these as their main setup, but for an ultre-budget PC system, they are amazing.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61aza8PGr+L._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 01, 2023, 06:43:21 AM
Some bad news regarding my Pioneer Elite DVD, etc. player.  I received a phone call that apparently it's a case of problems with the motherboard and, in short, he can't fix it.  Haven't totally given up hope yet; I'm starting to make some calls around to see if I can find a new replacement one (slim chance there).  I'm also going to contact the place where I had originally purchased it (a high-end audio shop which also does repairs to see if they have any ideas/thoughts).

Wish me luck!

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 01, 2023, 07:22:14 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on November 30, 2023, 11:45:29 PMOK. Here's a weird outside post. A pair of $35 Speakers. I have 3 sets of "serious Speakers" in various rooms, with regular amps and systems. I use these little guys with my laptop when I've been chased away from the living room, den etc, and into my little hidey-hole by my wife and kids. BUT, when positioned right, these tiny fellas are quite remarkable. Each is actually a 2-way speaker, with a small bass in the back, and create a crazy-full sound in proportion to their size and price. Hopefully, no one will need these as their main setup, but for an ultre-budget PC system, they are amazing.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61aza8PGr+L._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
You get chased out of the den too!?  :(  Glad that you have your hidey-hole.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 01, 2023, 08:52:03 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 01, 2023, 06:43:21 AMSome bad news regarding my Pioneer Elite DVD, etc. player.  I received a phone call that apparently it's a case of problems with the motherboard and, in short, he can't fix it.  Haven't totally given up hope yet; I'm starting to make some calls around to see if I can find a new replacement one (slim chance there).  I'm also going to contact the place where I had originally purchased it (a high-end audio shop which also does repairs to see if they have any ideas/thoughts).

Wish me luck!

PD

Why don't you just buy another player?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 01, 2023, 09:10:16 AM
Quote from: DavidW on December 01, 2023, 08:52:03 AMWhy don't you just buy another player?
I may have to go that route.  I do really like this one though as it plays a variety of formats and the sound is quite good.  I also have a bunch of either SACD's or Hybrid-SACDs that I want to be able to play.  Plus, I can also watch DVDs using it.  I don't own any blu-Rays or a very modern t.v.

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Blu-ray-Disc/Elite-DVD-Players/DV-79AVi

PD

p.s.  Don't ask me why this link mentions Blu-ray, as it doesn't play them!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on December 01, 2023, 11:01:48 AM
Quote from: DavidW on December 01, 2023, 08:52:03 AMWhy don't you just buy another player?

It's a bad thing environmentally that modern electronics becomes obsolete, irreparable. This never used to be the case -- companies would use standard components and publish schematics to make sure that repair was always possible. All my hi-hi is old, maintained so that it sounds today like it sounded 50 years ago, and there's no reason why it shouldn't carry on giving pleasure for another 50 years.  That being said, this may have never have been the case for DVD players, SACD players.

Fight for the right to repair!



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 01, 2023, 12:29:31 PM
I always thought of right to repair as fighting against companies closing the cases off completely and voiding warranties if you open it to repair it.  PD taking a player to a shop and they say they can't do it because the mobo has gone bad doesn't seem to fit in that umbrella.

I agree with you though, I should be able to repair my iphone! (I need to as well)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 01, 2023, 12:47:40 PM
Quote from: DavidW on December 01, 2023, 12:29:31 PMI always thought of right to repair as fighting against companies closing the cases off completely and voiding warranties if you open it to repair it.  PD taking a player to a shop and they say they can't do it because the mobo has gone bad doesn't seem to fit in that umbrella.

I agree with you though, I should be able to repair my iphone! (I need to as well)
I was surprised when I asked the repair person if he had noted the part number and he told me that there wasn't one...just a plant or factory number.  Perhaps that was the norm re these players and the design?  I did find another repairer (a bit further away) who (I got the feeling in terms of equipment, etc.) that they might be able to do some further tests and maybe narrow things down further and perhaps be able to replace necessary parts?  I don't know.

But, yes, I do agree that people should be able to repair their equipment....whether it's tractors or whatever.  I just wish that I could get the information; I was told by the current technician that there are no schematics which would obviously make it harder to figure out what is wrong--plus he also said that the parts were probably no longer available.  I dunno know.  I'm just trying to use my brain and ask questions and learn and think.  I'm stubborn.  :)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 01, 2023, 01:36:23 PM
You really just need to take a voltmeter around the different parts of the board and identify bad capacitors, broken connections etc.  Usually the capacitors go before anything else.  You can resurrect some vintage audio by replacing bad capacitors.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on December 02, 2023, 08:06:30 AM
Kii 7, they're so cute. My dream speakers for my office, but I couldn't deal with the risk of having $7k in speakers being stolen.

(https://hifiplus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Kii-Seven-0082.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 02, 2023, 08:33:46 AM
Quote from: Atriod on December 02, 2023, 08:06:30 AMKii 7, they're so cute. My dream speakers for my office, but I couldn't deal with the risk of having $7k in speakers being stolen.

(https://hifiplus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Kii-Seven-0082.jpg)

That's a fine speaker.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 02, 2023, 08:42:13 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 01, 2023, 09:10:16 AMI may have to go that route.  I do really like this one though as it plays a variety of formats and the sound is quite good.  I also have a bunch of either SACD's or Hybrid-SACDs that I want to be able to play.  Plus, I can also watch DVDs using it.  I don't own any blu-Rays or a very modern t.v.

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Blu-ray-Disc/Elite-DVD-Players/DV-79AVi

PD

p.s.  Don't ask me why this link mentions Blu-ray, as it doesn't play them!

    How do you connect the player to watch DVDs and listen to SACDs?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on December 02, 2023, 08:52:34 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 01, 2023, 11:01:48 AMIt's a bad thing environmentally that modern electronics becomes obsolete, irreparable. This never used to be the case -- companies would use standard components and publish schematics to make sure that repair was always possible. All my hi-hi is old, maintained so that it sounds today like it sounded 50 years ago, and there's no reason why it shouldn't carry on giving pleasure for another 50 years.  That being said, this may have never have been the case for DVD players, SACD players.

Fight for the right to repair!




It's particularly bad with smart phones and the amount of waste they produce, there is no reason they can't continue to support phones with security updates other than the want for more profits. My four year old Samsung phone hardware wise is still much faster than a Thinkpad from 2010 that I use to rip CDs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: steve ridgway on December 02, 2023, 09:06:40 AM
I successfully replaced the battery in my wife's MacBook Air this year. The new one came with compatible screwdrivers to undo the special non-standard Apple screws and this model didn't require special solvent to dissolve the glue used in some to bond the battery in place. Apple still get you in the end though by ceasing software updates for older models.

I've also just completed upgrading the kitchen lights by replacing the LED compatible dimmer switches that I'd used to replace the original dimmer switches with straight on/off switches and replacing the useless dimmable LED bulbs that I'd used to replace the halogen bulbs with regular LED bulbs. So after doing the whole house will have thrown away 8 dimmer switches and a couple of dozen dimmable LED bulbs plus all those that failed, but will have plenty of spare halogen bulbs for the infrequently used dimmable lights in the lounge. Still, this is all progress and part of saving the planet.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mandryka on December 02, 2023, 10:55:15 AM
Quote from: DavidW on December 01, 2023, 01:36:23 PMYou really just need to take a voltmeter around the different parts of the board and identify bad capacitors, broken connections etc.  Usually the capacitors go before anything else.  You can resurrect some vintage audio by replacing bad capacitors.

yes but not necessarily modern audio where they use non standard integrated circuits. In fact one of my pieces blew up the other day -- an external powered crossover which I use in my system with electrostatics and passive subs. I took it to my repair man (he thinks it's just a cap fortunately) and we got talking about this very problem. He said he hates it when people bring him recent equipment to repair as often, it's not really doable, either because the manufacturer won't help with schematic diagrams (and the cost/time to work it out without is prohibitive)  and/or the parts are just not available.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on December 02, 2023, 02:41:44 PM
I can't seem to post an image - thought I knew how to do it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 02, 2023, 07:06:18 PM

     For quality at a decent price you can't beat the Oppo BDP-83. You can get it for under $200 (though you might want to pay a bit more for a "Granny only drove it to church on Sunday" unit).

     This will give you all the analog connections for audio and video for CD/DVD/SACD and future proofing with Blu Ray and DVD-A functionality.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: steve ridgway on December 02, 2023, 09:51:55 PM
Quote from: Holden on December 02, 2023, 02:41:44 PMI can't seem to post an image - thought I knew how to do it.

If uploading one of your own the attach option is in the full Reply but not the Quick Reply.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on December 02, 2023, 10:31:23 PM
Quote from: steve ridgway on December 02, 2023, 09:51:55 PMIf uploading one of your own the attach option is in the full Reply but not the Quick Reply.

I find the current system baffling because after you upload it allows you to link it, then you get two copies of the image visible.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on December 03, 2023, 12:40:48 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on December 02, 2023, 10:31:23 PMI find the current system baffling because after you upload it allows you to link it, then you get two copies of the image visible.

Don't link it and then one image posted.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 03, 2023, 04:05:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 02, 2023, 10:55:15 AMyes but not necessarily modern audio where they use non standard integrated circuits. In fact one of my pieces blew up the other day -- an external powered crossover which I use in my system with electrostatics and passive subs. I took it to my repair man (he thinks it's just a cap fortunately) and we got talking about this very problem. He said he hates it when people bring him recent equipment to repair as often, it's not really doable, either because the manufacturer won't help with schematic diagrams (and the cost/time to work it out without is prohibitive)  and/or the parts are just not available.

Same thing with cars and everything is electronic now with them, even things that could easily be mechanical.  Makes repairs much more expensive and arduous. :blank:   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 03, 2023, 04:10:42 AM
Quote from: Holden on December 02, 2023, 02:41:44 PMI can't seem to post an image - thought I knew how to do it.

If it is an attachment hit the preview button to get the full reply and then you can attach the image, make sure it is small enough.

If it is from website make sure you go "copy image link" and not "copy image" and then you use the image tags img and /img as shown:

[img]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Feclassical.textalk.se%2Fshop%2F17115%2Fart15%2Fh9226%2F5019226-origpic-16afee.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=75ab25c03ed5fd8f7e2d98c80dc79602a8587c5793e5fd7aecdb00406f714339&ipo=images[/img]produces
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Feclassical.textalk.se%2Fshop%2F17115%2Fart15%2Fh9226%2F5019226-origpic-16afee.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=75ab25c03ed5fd8f7e2d98c80dc79602a8587c5793e5fd7aecdb00406f714339&ipo=images)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on December 03, 2023, 07:19:26 AM
Quote from: Irons on December 03, 2023, 12:40:48 AMDon't link it and then one image posted.

That's what I do, when I have to upload an image. But it would be nice to be able to place the image in the appropriate place in the text, rather than hanging on the bottom of the post. But if I link it so it appears in the appropriate spot I get two copies of the image, which makes me look like an idiot.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on December 05, 2023, 12:14:35 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on December 03, 2023, 07:19:26 AMThat's what I do, when I have to upload an image. But it would be nice to be able to place the image in the appropriate place in the text, rather than hanging on the bottom of the post. But if I link it so it appears in the appropriate spot I get two copies of the image, which makes me look like an idiot.

I know the feeling well (look like an idiot).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on December 05, 2023, 02:01:57 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on December 03, 2023, 07:19:26 AMBut if I link it so it appears in the appropriate spot I get two copies of the image, which makes me look like an idiot.

It makes the coders who wrote this forum software look like idiots.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2023, 03:45:18 AM
Quote from: drogulus on December 02, 2023, 08:42:13 AMHow do you connect the player to watch DVDs and listen to SACDs?

Nothing fancy.  There's a HDMI cable between my player and my t.v. (Just use the t.v. remote to switch between the t.v. setting--HDMI1--to HDMI2 to watch a DVD).  There are audio outs also on the back of the player which I hook up via RCA cables to the audio ins on my pre-amp.  And the power cord for the player is plugged into the back of my Panamax surge protector.

Pre-amp is connected to power amp (to which my speakers are plugged into).

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2023, 03:47:22 AM
Quote from: Atriod on December 02, 2023, 08:06:30 AMKii 7, they're so cute. My dream speakers for my office, but I couldn't deal with the risk of having $7k in speakers being stolen.

(https://hifiplus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Kii-Seven-0082.jpg)
Ouch, that would hurt!

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2023, 03:52:03 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 02, 2023, 10:55:15 AMyes but not necessarily modern audio where they use non standard integrated circuits. In fact one of my pieces blew up the other day -- an external powered crossover which I use in my system with electrostatics and passive subs. I took it to my repair man (he thinks it's just a cap fortunately) and we got talking about this very problem. He said he hates it when people bring him recent equipment to repair as often, it's not really doable, either because the manufacturer won't help with schematic diagrams (and the cost/time to work it out without is prohibitive)  and/or the parts are just not available.
I suspect that that's what's going on here.  I may try and bring it to one other place (also a pretty long drive) though I'll try and have a brief conversation with him first to see whether or not he thinks that it's worthwhile.

Quote from: drogulus on December 02, 2023, 07:06:18 PMFor quality at a decent price you can't beat the Oppo BDP-83. You can get it for under $200 (though you might want to pay a bit more for a "Granny only drove it to church on Sunday" unit).

     This will give you all the analog connections for audio and video for CD/DVD/SACD and future proofing with Blu Ray and DVD-A functionality.
I've heard/read good things about Oppos before (no longer making them from what I recall?).  I'll look into it...thanks.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 05, 2023, 07:55:08 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2023, 03:52:03 AMI've heard/read good things about Oppos before (no longer making them from what I recall?).  I'll look into it...thanks.

PD

    You can get a Pio DV-79AVi on eBay for $259, or an Oppo for around the same price. Since the Pio is considered a very good unit for audio it may be a pretty even choice. Of course you can repair an Oppo. Replacing the tray would be about $120 (for a 203) and service is said to be excellent according to a poster at the Steve Hoffman site.

    OPPO UDP-203 Repair (https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/oppo-udp-203-repair.1183639/)
   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2023, 08:00:33 AM
Quote from: drogulus on December 05, 2023, 07:55:08 AMYou can get a Pio DV-79AVi on eBay for $259, or an Oppo for around the same price. Since the Pio is considered a very good unit for audio it may be a pretty even choice. Of course you can repair an Oppo. Replacing the tray would be about $120 (for a 203) and service is said to be excellent according to a poster at the Steve Hoffman site.

    OPPO UDP-203 Repair (https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/oppo-udp-203-repair.1183639/)
   
So, the Oppo uses "common" parts (or at least ones that are still being manufactured)?  I'll check out the link...thanks again.  Note:  looking (quickly) on eBay, I did see an almost new Oppo for $600.  How is the Oppo considered re sound?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 05, 2023, 08:27:45 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2023, 08:00:33 AMSo, the Oppo uses "common" parts (or at least ones that are still being manufactured)?  I'll check out the link...thanks again.  Note:  looking (quickly) on eBay, I did see an almost new Oppo for $600.  How is the Oppo considered re sound?

PD

Oppo players especially the high end ones are top shelf for sound.  It is actually Steve Guttenberg's (The Audiophiliac) top choice for source.  The Oppo (I don't remember which number) was one of the few that even had rcas for the entire surround sound, you didn't need hdmi!  It has a great dac and analog stage, just an awesome player.  And I think it plays just about all the formats too if I remember correctly (it has been a long time).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2023, 08:38:24 AM
Quote from: DavidW on December 05, 2023, 08:27:45 AMOppo players especially the high end ones are top shelf for sound.  It is actually Steve Guttenberg's (The Audiophiliac) top choice for source.  The Oppo (I don't remember which number) was one of the few that even had rcas for the entire surround sound, you didn't need hdmi!  It has a great dac and analog stage, just an awesome player.  And I think it plays just about all the formats too if I remember correctly (it has been a long time).
Thanks!  Do you have any thoughts about from/which models would fall into the top category?

And, probably a silly question, can you play regular DVDs on a blu-ray player?  I suspect that it's a case that one can, but not the opposite situation (obviously).

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on December 05, 2023, 08:40:32 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2023, 08:38:24 AMAnd, probably a silly question, can you play regular DVDs on a blu-ray player?  I suspect that it's a case that one can, but not the opposite situation (obviously).

I don't know if it is part of the official specification, but I've never encountered a blue ray player that didn't play regular DVDs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 05, 2023, 08:50:33 AM
Quote from: DavidW on December 05, 2023, 08:27:45 AMOppo players especially the high end ones are top shelf for sound.  It is actually Steve Guttenberg's (The Audiophiliac) top choice for source.  The Oppo (I don't remember which number) was one of the few that even had rcas for the entire surround sound, you didn't need hdmi!  It has a great dac and analog stage, just an awesome player.  And I think it plays just about all the formats too if I remember correctly (it has been a long time).

Oppo stopped with building DVD/Blu-Ray players, some time ago. Panasonic makes still a High end Player, which I bought a year ago, and it is 5 times better as the Oppo in sound and picture.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2023, 08:53:13 AM
Quote from: Harry on December 05, 2023, 08:50:33 AMOppo stopped with building DVD/Blu-Ray players, some time ago. Panasonic makes still a High end Player, which I bought a year ago, and it is 5 times better as the Oppo in sound and picture.
Which one did you purchase Harry?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 05, 2023, 09:06:21 AM
Quote from: Harry on December 05, 2023, 08:50:33 AMOppo stopped with building DVD/Blu-Ray players, some time ago. Panasonic makes still a High end Player, which I bought a year ago, and it is 5 times better as the Oppo in sound and picture.

Yes a few years ago I bought a 4k Panasonic player that is outrageously good (when my Oppo broke).  It has upscaling that makes dvds look sharp and film like, and hdr processing that is out of this world!  It is a shame that I mostly stream these days.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 05, 2023, 09:13:21 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2023, 08:53:13 AMWhich one did you purchase Harry?

PD

Panasonic DP-UB 9004, Ultra HD/Blu-Ray.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 05, 2023, 10:56:41 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2023, 08:00:33 AMSo, the Oppo uses "common" parts (or at least ones that are still being manufactured)?  I'll check out the link...thanks again.  Note:  looking (quickly) on eBay, I did see an almost new Oppo for $600.  How is the Oppo considered re sound?

PD

    You picked the most expensive one. You want an 83/93/103, all of which typically sell for the mid-$200s. Search "Oppo bdp 83 blu ray player" and you'll see.

    The Panny players are very good, but they don't play SACDs. David says they are better than Oppo for video and though he might be evil (just saying) I trust him on that.  >:D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 05, 2023, 12:03:03 PM
Quote from: drogulus on December 05, 2023, 10:56:41 AMYou picked the most expensive one. You want an 83/93/103, all of which typically sell for the mid-$200s. Search "Oppo bdp 83 blu ray player" and you'll see.

The more expensive one though has better hardware for audio though (same build quality though)!

btw didn't you find some kind of Chinese clone of the Oppo?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on December 05, 2023, 12:22:34 PM
Quote from: DavidW on December 03, 2023, 04:10:42 AMIf it is an attachment hit the preview button to get the full reply and then you can attach the image, make sure it is small enough.

If it is from website make sure you go "copy image link" and not "copy image" and then you use the image tags img and /img as shown:

[img]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Feclassical.textalk.se%2Fshop%2F17115%2Fart15%2Fh9226%2F5019226-origpic-16afee.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=75ab25c03ed5fd8f7e2d98c80dc79602a8587c5793e5fd7aecdb00406f714339&ipo=images[/img]produces
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Feclassical.textalk.se%2Fshop%2F17115%2Fart15%2Fh9226%2F5019226-origpic-16afee.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=75ab25c03ed5fd8f7e2d98c80dc79602a8587c5793e5fd7aecdb00406f714339&ipo=images)

Gotta find where my black mascara and lipstick are to get in the mood for this when the box comes out. Knowing just how good some of these sound via streaming with BIS' incredible recording quality, it's going to be even better cranking this up.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 05, 2023, 02:05:12 PM
Quote from: DavidW on December 05, 2023, 12:03:03 PMThe more expensive one though has better hardware for audio though (same build quality though)!

btw didn't you find some kind of Chinese clone of the Oppo?

    Yes, I have a "Chinoppo" with no disc player.

    (https://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/3226522-e6190ad7-chinoppo-m9702-media-player-oppo-quality-grade-output.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 05, 2023, 02:49:23 PM
Quote from: Atriod on December 05, 2023, 12:22:34 PMGotta find where my black mascara and lipstick are to get in the mood for this when the box comes out. Knowing just how good some of these sound via streaming with BIS' incredible recording quality, it's going to be even better cranking this up.

The sound is so layered and detailed.  There are definitely elements of these symphonies that I couldn't hear in other recordings.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on December 06, 2023, 08:10:45 AM
I recently sold my aging Esoteric CD/SACD player and bought a Mark Levinson No.5101--wow! It sounds at least as good if not better, and loads discs, especially SACDs, much faster.
(https://i.imgur.com/uf7oeT8.jpg)

(The device sitting on top is my Chord DAC. I still use it for streaming and downloaded files.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 06, 2023, 08:16:08 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on December 06, 2023, 08:10:45 AMI recently sold my aging Esoteric CD/SACD player and bought a Mark Levinson No.5101--wow! It sounds at least as good if not better, and loads discs, especially SACDs, much faster.
(https://i.imgur.com/uf7oeT8.jpg)

(The device sitting on top is my Chord DAC. I still use it for streaming and downloaded files.)

A fine SACD player. Heard it recently and was amazed, but it does not not top my Esoteric Grandiose. Still a very good high end player. Congrats.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on December 06, 2023, 08:32:43 AM
Quote from: Harry on December 06, 2023, 08:16:08 AMA fine SACD player. Heard it recently and was amazed, but it does not not top my Esoteric Grandiose. Still a very good high end player. Congrats.
Probably not, but at a fraction of the cost, it's a great bargain. I loosely considered an Esoteric K-03XD, but it was still too expensive, especially since I bought a gently used dealer demo ML and saved an additional $2600! We've had massive vet bills (around $10,000), had to have a new garage door installed ($4800), and the electrical panel replaced ($5200), so I couldn't justify spending any more money than I did.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on January 04, 2024, 07:52:17 AM
I finally got fed up with whacking my NAD amplifier with the fire poker to get it working, so I have ordered a Cambridge Audio amplifier to replace it (delivery next Tuesday).
 ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 04, 2024, 08:03:30 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 04, 2024, 07:52:17 AMI finally got fed up with whacking my NAD amplifier with the fire poker to get it working, so I have ordered a Cambridge Audio amplifier to replace it (delivery next Tuesday).
 ;D

Very good choice! Keep the NAD in case you need to get rid of frustration, and have to use the poker ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 04, 2024, 08:05:32 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on December 06, 2023, 08:32:43 AMProbably not, but at a fraction of the cost, it's a great bargain. I loosely considered an Esoteric K-03XD, but it was still too expensive, especially since I bought a gently used dealer demo ML and saved an additional $2600! We've had massive vet bills (around $10,000), had to have a new garage door installed ($4800), and the electrical panel replaced ($5200), so I couldn't justify spending any more money than I did.

I quite understand my friend.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 04, 2024, 08:34:12 AM
Quote from: drogulus on December 05, 2023, 02:05:12 PMYes, I have a "Chinoppo" with no disc player.

    (https://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/3226522-e6190ad7-chinoppo-m9702-media-player-oppo-quality-grade-output.jpg)

No disc player?  What does it do?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on January 04, 2024, 08:54:35 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 04, 2024, 08:03:30 AMVery good choice! Keep the NAD in case you need to get rid of frustration, and have to use the poker ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D
An excellent point my friend. I shall keep it handy!
 ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 04, 2024, 09:52:20 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 04, 2024, 07:52:17 AMI finally got fed up with whacking my NAD amplifier with the fire poker to get it working, so I have ordered a Cambridge Audio amplifier to replace it (delivery next Tuesday).
 ;D
Congrats!  I'd still talk to a repair person though to see if s/he thinks it might be worth taking a look at to see if it's repairable.

Speaking of repairs, the first person that I brought by DVD/SACD, etc. player to to look at said that he couldn't repair it and suggested that I either get a new one or check out the used market.  I might try calling and talking to another repair person in a different state and see what they think (They are a bit of a haul away though).  In the meantime, I brought my old Technics CD player down from my study and a friend helped me get it set up in my better stereo system, so I'll at least have something there to get me running for the time being.  We also hauled the cabinet back into place--a lot easier said then done!  ;)

Hope to listen to music later; busy day taking holiday lights down and packing them up (boxes still need to be stowed away).

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 04, 2024, 09:56:18 AM
Quote from: Daverz on January 04, 2024, 08:34:12 AMNo disc player?  What does it do?

    It plays all my audio and video via USB, just like my real Oppo did.

    I don't play disks, I rip them to drives. I then organize the files alphabetically by type, like movies and collections for TV stuff. I have a separate 4K category, too.

    With all music and video under one regime everything can be accessed in a few seconds. All I have to do is rip new stuff when it comes and slot it in where it belongs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 04, 2024, 09:59:58 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on December 06, 2023, 08:32:43 AMProbably not, but at a fraction of the cost, it's a great bargain. I loosely considered an Esoteric K-03XD, but it was still too expensive, especially since I bought a gently used dealer demo ML and saved an additional $2600! We've had massive vet bills (around $10,000), had to have a new garage door installed ($4800), and the electrical panel replaced ($5200), so I couldn't justify spending any more money than I did.
$10,000 in vet bills?!  :o

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 04, 2024, 10:13:18 AM
Quote from: drogulus on January 04, 2024, 09:56:18 AMIt plays all my audio and video via USB, just like my real Oppo did.

    I don't play disks, I rip them to drives. I then organize the files alphabetically by type, like movies and collections for TV stuff. I have a separate 4K category, too.

    With all music and video under one regime everything can be accessed in a few seconds. All I have to do is rip new stuff when it comes and slot it in where it belongs.

I should have googled.  It seems that "Chinoppo" is a actual brand name, but I can only find info in Spanish.  Hmmm. 

So does it play ripped SACD and blu-ray isos and have multi-channel output?  What about multi-channel FLAC? 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on January 04, 2024, 11:00:06 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 04, 2024, 09:59:58 AM$10,000 in vet bills?!  :o

PD
Yes, for Lucy: blood tests, ultrasound, x-ray, endoscopy, pain/anti-nausea/anti-diarrheal medications, and her eventual euthanasia. We spent another $1000 on Ethel, but that was after I bought the Levinson.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 04, 2024, 12:26:41 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on January 04, 2024, 11:00:06 AMYes, for Lucy: blood tests, ultrasound, x-ray, endoscopy, pain/anti-nausea/anti-diarrheal medications, and her eventual euthanasia. We spent another $1000 on Ethel, but that was after I bought the Levinson.
Wow, was that all within one year?  I hate to think of what I spent on my cats over the years; I have never added them up (but did also have to make the hard decisions, upon discussion with various vets and specialists as to what I thought was within my budget and also asking questions and trying to understand as to how effective the treatments, etc. might be and whether or not it/they would improve my cat's quality of life...or possibly make it worse...like any pet owner).

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 04, 2024, 01:35:19 PM
Quote from: Daverz on January 04, 2024, 10:13:18 AMI should have googled.  It seems that "Chinoppo" is a actual brand name, but I can only find info in Spanish.  Hmmm. 

So does it play ripped SACD and blu-ray isos and have multi-channel output?  What about multi-channel FLAC? 

     Yes to all.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on January 04, 2024, 04:19:14 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 04, 2024, 12:26:41 PMWow, was that all within one year? 
From June 15th to September 6th, Lucy's last day. Damn, just typing that makes my eyes tear up.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on January 08, 2024, 07:24:59 AM
Has anyone heard MBL speakers with classical? I never had them on my seriously consider list because at audio shows they always play electronic music and way too loud to get a feel for how they really sound. After catching up with an online friend whose hearing has never led me astray, he told me he was extremely impressed with the 101 he heard in an owner's home, and he is also primarily a classical listener. The descriptors we was using was checking all the right boxes. Then I did a search on ASR and found a thread where MBL were discussed last year and two people that know classical music really well said nearly identical things to what my friend said. 101e are in my budget for new speakers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 08, 2024, 07:56:01 AM
Quote from: Atriod on January 08, 2024, 07:24:59 AMHas anyone heard MBL speakers with classical? I never had them on my seriously consider list because at audio shows they always play electronic music and way too loud to get a feel for how they really sound. After catching up with an online friend whose hearing has never led me astray, he told me he was extremely impressed with the 101 he heard in an owner's home, and he is also primarily a classical listener. The descriptors we was using was checking all the right boxes. Then I did a search on ASR and found a thread where MBL were discussed last year and two people that know classical music really well said nearly identical things to what my friend said. 101e are in my budget for new speakers.

If I had the FU money for MBLs, there are a lot of speakers at, say, 10% of the price that I'd try first, at least to get a broader idea of what kind of sound I could get in my room.  Brands like KEF, kiiaudio, Dutch & Dutch, Revel, and the larger Genelec or Neumann models.  Also, I'd put a lot of money into the room acoustics.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on January 08, 2024, 08:03:53 AM
Quote from: Daverz on January 08, 2024, 07:56:01 AMIf I had the FU money for MBLs, there are a lot of speakers at, say, 10% of the price that I'd try first, at least to get a broader idea of what kind of sound I could get in my room.  Brands like KEF, kiiaudio, Dutch & Dutch, Revel, and the larger Genelec or Neumann models.  Also, I'd put a lot of money into the room acoustics.



I didn't mention the other speakers I'm interested in because I know enough about them. Kii 3 BXT, KEF Blade Meta, Vivid Giya G2, and some custom system from a company in Norway.

MBL are so far out of right field from anything I'm familiar with.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 12, 2024, 01:46:44 AM
I needed an external streamer for my Sennheiser soundbar, to boost the sound and ordered the
CAMBRIDGE AUDIO streamer CXN V2. An absolute superb streamer, and at low cost, with a fine DAC and a fast processor. Look forward to it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 12, 2024, 11:56:52 AM
@Harry I used to own that streamer (the cxn v 2).  The hardware is fantastic, but the app sometimes is great, sometimes it is annoying.  They update it enough though.

One of the reasons I originally bought it was to see the cover art and the metadata/tracking info.  Funny enough I then moved to a house and ended up sitting far enough away from my stereo that I couldn't see the display anyway! :laugh:
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 12, 2024, 01:16:18 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 12, 2024, 11:56:52 AM@Harry I used to own that streamer (the cxn v 2).  The hardware is fantastic, but the app sometimes is great, sometimes it is annoying.  They update it enough though.

One of the reasons I originally bought it was to see the cover art and the metadata/tracking info.  Funny enough I then moved to a house and ended up sitting far enough away from my stereo that I couldn't see the display anyway! :laugh:

I will run it through Roon, so that should not be a problem, plus the fact that this is outward the same streamer as you had, but the software has been majorly updated. I read a review which I trust, and had a couple of friends that had the same streamer, and raved about it. But I am indebted to you for telling me this about the APP, any details what the actual annoyance was?
I sit fairly close to the streamer, and that will stay this way, for the display is a marvel, certainly at the price range this Cambridge is. If you have more info you want to share please do.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 13, 2024, 06:18:23 AM
I made myself a mono cartridge! :)
(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/img_4618-jpeg.985669/)
It's actually a stereo Audio-Technica VM510CB, I just latched the channels together. Audio-Technica sells a premade one called VM610MONO.
(Spinning here is Tchaikovsky PC1 with Richter, Czech Philh. and Ancerl, recorded 1954, reissue from 1966.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 13, 2024, 08:47:02 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 12, 2024, 01:16:18 PMI will run it through Roon, so that should not be a problem, plus the fact that this is outward the same streamer as you had, but the software has been majorly updated. I read a review which I trust, and had a couple of friends that had the same streamer, and raved about it. But I am indebted to you for telling me this about the APP, any details what the actual annoyance was?
I sit fairly close to the streamer, and that will stay this way, for the display is a marvel, certainly at the price range this Cambridge is. If you have more info you want to share please do.

Sometimes an update will cause playback problems.  One time it would just pause playback randomly and I would have to jump back in the app on my ipad and pause/play to get it to resume.  Another time it lost my entire flac archive on the thumbdrive and I had to rebuild the library.  Another time it would just refuse to play something or even find things on Qobuz until I rebooted both the player and the app.  Cambridge Audio is quick to fix a bad update that breaks things like that (lasting no more than a week or two), but it happened just too often for my taste (or patience).  And if you look at the reviews on iOS for the app, you'll see I'm far from alone, and it doesn't even have a good average rating.

Since I use an external dac, the SQ upgrade over the Bluesound Node 2i is simply irrelevant to me, so I just downgraded and the Bluesound app is far more polished.  I've never encountered those kind of bugs with my Node.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 13, 2024, 09:04:03 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 13, 2024, 08:47:02 AMSometimes an update will cause playback problems.  One time it would just pause playback randomly and I would have to jump back in the app on my ipad and pause/play to get it to resume.  Another time it lost my entire flac archive on the thumbdrive and I had to rebuild the library.  Another time it would just refuse to play something or even find things on Qobuz until I rebooted both the player and the app.  Cambridge Audio is quick to fix a bad update that breaks things like that (lasting no more than a week or two), but it happened just too often for my taste (or patience).  And if you look at the reviews on iOS for the app, you'll see I'm far from alone, and it doesn't even have a good average rating.

Since I use an external dac, the SQ upgrade over the Bluesound Node 2i is simply irrelevant to me, so I just downgraded and the Bluesound app is far more polished.  I've never encountered those kind of bugs with my Node.

I understand David, I am not likely to encounter those problems, for I work through Roon. I had the bluesound Node too, and can confirm its excellence.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 13, 2024, 09:05:58 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 13, 2024, 09:04:03 AMI understand David, I am not likely to encounter those problems, for I work through Roon. I had the bluesound Node too, and can confirm its excellence.

Someday I should learn more about Roon, it keeps sounding like something amazing!  I first heard about it from a youtuber, I think his name is Darko and he reviews hifi equipment.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 13, 2024, 09:32:47 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 13, 2024, 09:05:58 AMSomeday I should learn more about Roon, it keeps sounding like something amazing!  I first heard about it from a youtuber, I think his name is Darko and he reviews hifi equipment.

Believe me, it's the best one can have coupled with a streamer. There is enough written about Roon and its qualities, but for most it is to expensive, but then quality has its price.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on January 13, 2024, 10:57:43 AM
I finally got my Cambridge Audio Amp connected to my system today - the usual (silent) song and dance as I connected up the leads to the wrong inputs etc. Finally it worked. The big surprise is that it includes a radio! I wasn't expecting that. The sound is different to my old NAD Amp - a bit more 'laid back' but with more depth and a sense of slumbering power held in reserve. At least, so far, I haven't had to whack it with the fire poker to get it going.
 :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on January 13, 2024, 03:20:25 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 13, 2024, 09:05:58 AMSomeday I should learn more about Roon, it keeps sounding like something amazing!  I first heard about it from a youtuber, I think his name is Darko and he reviews hifi equipment.

On previous Black Fridays they have done three month trials for a few bucks, that's what I would wait for. Also they recently got bought out by Harman. I don't think the normal two week trials are enough time if you have a big classical library. Maybe my tagging just sucks but I didn't like it when I loaded 20% of my library into it (made a copy on my free hard drive space then pointed Roon to that directory just in case Roon would overwrite my own tags in my permanent library). I'm certainly open to giving it another try in a couple of years.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 14, 2024, 04:16:48 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 13, 2024, 09:05:58 AMSomeday I should learn more about Roon, it keeps sounding like something amazing!  I first heard about it from a youtuber, I think his name is Darko and he reviews hifi equipment.

Roon sounds like a pretty brilliant product.  I like the idea of a central server, and control via smart phone, tablets, etc.  Roon also manages one's other subscription serves such as Tidal and Qobuz.

For my part, though, I have strong resistance to subscription services and the recurring costs they entail -- for me personally such expenses are non-trivial.

All my listening is to computer files;  I haven't listened to vinyl at all in 15+ years.  My music files (and other stuff) reside on a NAS device that I can accesses via Ethernet or Wifi.  Presently all listening location use Windows computer with, for music listening, the Foobar2000 player.

Just yesterday I purchase this Windows mini PC (https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B09X9SYT98?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details) that will Foobar2000 and Netflix and Prime Video apps -- I'm sure it could  work as a Roon server for that matter.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/714J+CS-etL._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 14, 2024, 06:23:04 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 13, 2024, 10:57:43 AMI finally got my Cambridge Audio Amp connected to my system today - the usual (silent) song and dance as I connected up the leads to the wrong inputs etc. Finally it worked. The big surprise is that it includes a radio! I wasn't expecting that. The sound is different to my old NAD Amp - a bit more 'laid back' but with more depth and a sense of slumbering power held in reserve. At least, so far, I haven't had to whack it with the fire poker to get it going.
 :)
Oh, good!  Which model did you end up purchasing Jeffrey?  And did you hook up an antenna to it?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on January 14, 2024, 12:15:23 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 14, 2024, 06:23:04 AMOh, good!  Which model did you end up purchasing Jeffrey?  And did you hook up an antenna to it?

PD

Cambridge Audio AX R85 PD
No. I haven't rigged up the antenna yet.
 :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on January 15, 2024, 07:50:37 AM
I have a Roon Nucleus Plus and like it very much. I got sick and tired of problems with both a MacBook Pro a a Windows based laptop, so I was happy to switch to a streamer. Roon's software has a fairly steep learning curve, and I still prefer the library management of the software I used with my laptops (Audirvrana and JRiver), but I have come to terms with it and made it more workable. (I won't bore people with the issues and solutions!) Once I got used to it, Roon's software is pretty amazing.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 15, 2024, 07:53:07 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on January 15, 2024, 07:50:37 AMI have a Roon Nucleus Plus and like it very much. I got sick and tired of problems with both a MacBook Pro a a Windows based laptop, so I was happy to switch to a streamer. Roon's software has a fairly steep learning curve, and I still prefer the library management of the software I used with my laptops (Audirvrana and JRiver), but I have come to terms with it and made it more workable. I won't bore people with the issues and solutions!) Once I got used to it, Roon's software is pretty amazing.

Amen to that!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on January 15, 2024, 07:57:06 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 15, 2024, 07:53:07 AMAmen to that!
It's too bad it's so expensive. I hope it doesn't get more so now that Harmon has bought them--I still have a few months of a free subscription left.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 15, 2024, 08:11:54 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on January 15, 2024, 07:57:06 AMIt's too bad it's so expensive. I hope it doesn't get more so now that Harmon has bought them--I still have a few months of a free subscription left.

Yes it is, but then there is no alternative,  so I pay, and happy that I can.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 15, 2024, 08:16:36 AM
I've started experimenting with low volume listening.  I usually listen at 70 dBs with peaks quite a bit higher, and now I'm aiming for 50-60s dBs for the average instead and just making sure that it is loud enough to still hear the quietest parts.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 15, 2024, 08:45:20 AM
With good Mahler symphony recordings I end up at 71-72 dB average to hear the softest parts. Peaks at 105-107 dB, uha. That's on my main stereo of course.

Today I received a Sennheiser new cable for my 30 year old HD 580 Precision headphones. They are still very nice driven by the excellent little  USB powered Topping DX1. Great home office setup.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on January 15, 2024, 12:25:25 PM
Quote from: Valentino on January 15, 2024, 08:45:20 AMWith good Mahler symphony recordings I end up at 71-72 dB average to hear the softest parts. Peaks at 105-107 dB, uha. That's on my main stereo of course.

Today I received a Sennheiser new cable for my 30 year old HD 580 Precision headphones. They are still very nice driven by the excellent little  USB powered Topping DX1. Great home office setup.

Did you get a shorter cable like I did for my 580s? The originals were just too long.

I agree that even compared with the latest headphones around for the price today these are still outstanding cans.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on January 15, 2024, 01:58:08 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on January 15, 2024, 07:50:37 AMI have a Roon Nucleus Plus and like it very much. I got sick and tired of problems with both a MacBook Pro a a Windows based laptop, so I was happy to switch to a streamer. Roon's software has a fairly steep learning curve, and I still prefer the library management of the software I used with my laptops (Audirvrana and JRiver), but I have come to terms with it and made it more workable. (I won't bore people with the issues and solutions!) Once I got used to it, Roon's software is pretty amazing.

I would love to read more about what you thought about Roon and how you use it. I am using JRiver because after years I have it configured very well to work with classical but it's quite a dated looking app and its networking/hardware streamer use sucks compared to Roon.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on January 15, 2024, 03:47:40 PM
Quote from: Atriod on January 15, 2024, 01:58:08 PMI would love to read more about what you thought about Roon and how you use it. I am using JRiver because after years I have it configured very well to work with classical but it's quite a dated looking app and its networking/hardware streamer use sucks compared to Roon.
The only aspect of Roon I dislike is its playlist format. With JRiver, I could create playlists by historical eras (Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, and Contemporary) or whatever I chose to title them. It would display the cover, but the individual tracks were not visible until I clicked on the cover image. With Roon's user-created playlists, all of the tracks are in a vertical list under the album's cover image, and since some recordings have literally hundreds of tracks, and some playlists have hundreds of albums, I'd have to plow through maybe a thousand or more tracks to get to the recording I want. So, with Roon, a work around is to use its bookmark tool. I can title it whatever I want, and as long as a recording contains that word, then it groups them together and like with JR, the individual tracks only appear once I click on the cover image. Instead of historical eras, I created one for guitar, piano, symphony, sonata, trio, quartet, quintet, concerto, etc. If the key word does not appear in the title, then I can edit the name and add it. I also created a separate bookmark for my Qobuz files and my downloaded files. Otherwise, if I want to view my entire library, I'd have to scroll through nearly 5,000 albums! Roon allows sorting by all sorts of criteria, including recording resolution! So, once one gets familiar with its possibilities, it's quite an impressive program. With JR I often found myself gravitating toward the same historical era fairly often, so having them sorted by my two favorite solo instruments and musical forms instead, I tend  to explore  more of the recordings I have. Another plus is since it's Linux based, there are no drivers, which caused me no end of headaches with my HP laptop.

If I haven't addressed any particular question you have about Roon, don't hesitate to ask.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 15, 2024, 09:59:02 PM
Quote from: Holden on January 15, 2024, 12:25:25 PMDid you get a shorter cable like I did for my 580s? The originals were just too long.
The original ones were fine I think for lounge listening, and about twice as long as necessary for my desktop setup, where a spiral type cable works better. I ended up buying the standard type and length (for 600, 650 etc, they use the same plugs as the 580) from Sennheiser anyway. They were € 15 delivered and also sturdier than the ones from 1994.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on January 16, 2024, 12:15:20 AM
Quote from: Valentino on January 13, 2024, 06:18:23 AMI made myself a mono cartridge! :)
(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/img_4618-jpeg.985669/)
It's actually a stereo Audio-Technica VM510CB, I just latched the channels together. Audio-Technica sells a premade one called VM610MONO.
(Spinning here is Tchaikovsky PC1 with Richter, Czech Philh. and Ancerl, recorded 1954, reissue from 1966.)

Has this resulted in less audible surface noise?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Irons on January 16, 2024, 12:24:10 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 14, 2024, 12:15:23 PMCambridge Audio AX R85 PD
No. I haven't rigged up the antenna yet.
 :)

Nice clean lines. Phono stage included, so Jeffrey you have no excuse not to........
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 16, 2024, 12:41:07 AM
In Roon's library you cannot alphabetically arrange your CD's. Roon does that for you, and picks the first word that appears on the artwork of the CD, so to give an example, The Organ works of Buxtehude, you may find it on The, or Organ, or works, or collected, or Buxtehude, one never knows. That's the only irritating annoyance that bugs me, for  it takes me a long time before I find the recording, and that irks me no end. The rest works as a charm.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 16, 2024, 01:10:45 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 16, 2024, 12:41:07 AMIn Roon's library you cannot alphabetically arrange your CD's. Roon does that for you, and picks the first word that appears on the artwork of the CD, so to give an example, The Organ works of Buxtehude, you may find it on The, or Organ, or works, or collected, or Buxtehude, one never knows. That's the only irritating annoyance that bugs me, for  it takes me a long time before I find the recording, and that irks me no end. The rest works as a charm.
Can you type in and sort by composer?  Or just type in Buxtehude or the performer's name, etc., and filter those ways?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 16, 2024, 01:16:36 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 16, 2024, 01:10:45 AMCan you type in and sort by composer?  Or just type in Buxtehude or the performer's name, etc., and filter those ways?

PD

Nope!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 16, 2024, 01:31:30 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 16, 2024, 01:16:36 AMNope!
:o That would drive me nuts!  So, you have no options other than remembering the exact title of an album or trying various iterations?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 16, 2024, 01:58:49 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 16, 2024, 01:31:30 AM:o That would drive me nuts!  So, you have no options other than remembering the exact title of an album or trying various iterations?

PD

Correct!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 16, 2024, 04:44:29 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 16, 2024, 12:15:20 AMHas this resulted in less audible surface noise?
Yes. I estimate pops and ticks are 12 dB down or so compared to running it unstrapped. Mind you I do not have a mono switch, and this cart is for my mono vinyl only. AT also have the more expensive VM610MONO which is strapped internally. That seems to be the only difference.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 16, 2024, 05:24:50 AM
Quote from: Valentino on January 16, 2024, 04:44:29 AMYes. I estimate pops and ticks are 12 dB down or so compared to running it unstrapped. Mind you I do not have a mono switch, and this cart is for my mono vinyl only. AT also have the more expensive VM610MONO which is strapped internally. That seems to be the only difference.
Do you swap headshells or use a dedicated turntable?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 16, 2024, 05:53:15 AM
I swap headshells. I've got four cartridges on headshells now. This one for mono vinyl, and An Audio-Technica AT-VM95SP for (mono) shellac/78s, a RigB'd VM540ML "daily stereo and pictured an AT33PTG/II moving coil type for my very best LPs.

(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/1084349b-2d91-4ae5-a19e-56807a70e597-jpeg.895647/)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on January 16, 2024, 01:03:26 PM
@Harry, do you use Qobuz with Roon? If so, I'm sure you aware that Roon automatically places new Qobuz titles in the Qobuz Favorites folder. Lately, I've noticed that it takes a very long time, sometimes 30 minutes or more, for the that folder to open on my desktop computer. I have a lot of files, but it shouldn't take so long to open. Do you have that issue? I've tried 4 different browsers, and all are equally slow.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 16, 2024, 01:10:55 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on January 16, 2024, 01:03:26 PM@Harry, do you use Qobuz with Roon? If so, I'm sure you aware that Roon automatically places new Qobuz titles in the Qobuz Favorites folder. Lately, I've noticed that it takes a very long time, sometimes 30 minutes or more, for the that folder to open on my desktop computer. I have a lot of files, but it shouldn't take so long to open. Do you have that issue? I've tried 4 different browsers, and all are equally slow.

No I have not, just tried it out but there are no issues as yet.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 16, 2024, 02:30:54 PM
Quote from: Valentino on January 16, 2024, 05:53:15 AMI swap headshells. I've got four cartridges on headshells now. This one for mono vinyl, and An Audio-Technica AT-VM95SP for (mono) shellac/78s, a RigB'd VM540ML "daily stereo and pictured an AT33PTG/II moving coil type for my very best LPs.

(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/1084349b-2d91-4ae5-a19e-56807a70e597-jpeg.895647/)

Do you listen to (when you do swap) a number of albums which could use that shell since, I expect, it takes some time to swap between them (re adjustments)?  Does your 78 player play only 78's or is it more versatile?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on January 16, 2024, 05:42:15 PM
Quote from: Harry on January 16, 2024, 01:10:55 PMNo I have not, just tried it out but there are no issues as yet.
I wonder if being in the US slows things down. I have a very hi-speed internet connection (936 mbps at the moment), so that isn't the problem.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ian on January 17, 2024, 06:26:31 AM
I need help  8)
I currently have a NAD C 315 CBEE integrated amp, a NAD T 535 CD/SACD player and a pair of Focal 618 W choral V speakers.
The player no longer reads the SACD layer on disks which have it and I'm getting a bit of distortion at high frequencies on some tracks. I've ruled out the speakers as on headphones I'm not hearing the same distortion. So I guess I should change the amp too.

I should mention that I'm no audiophile, but I'd like a good system. Not something that's just good enough or adequate. I have no idea where to start. For example for classical music, is there a type of amp that is better? Tube? Class A? A/B?

I'm not sure what my possibilities of listening at a brick & mortar shop are but I have been watching a few YouTube channels (Pearl Acoustics, A British Audiophile, Steve Gutenberg and others) and am currently thinking about the Sugden A21 or Music Fidelity or McIntosh MA 252. For the source there doesn't seem to be many SACD choices about. The Marantz 30N and McIntosh MCD85 have caught my attention.
In the meantime I have been playing around with speaker placement and it is amazing what differences and improvements can be achieved.

I'd be interested in hearing any experience and or recommendations you may have.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 17, 2024, 07:25:23 AM
Not Marantz they are a shell of their former self.  I don't know your budget but I've heard good things about Outlaw Audio for the $1k range for an integrated amp.  I myself didn't go the integrated amp route (but separates).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on January 17, 2024, 07:32:14 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 17, 2024, 07:25:23 AMNot Marantz they are a shell of their former self.  I don't know your budget but I've heard good things about Outlaw Audio for the $1k range for an integrated amp.  I myself didn't go the integrated amp route (but separates).

A real audiophile, with the budget at hand of course, must eventually go for the SACD players of Esoteric, simply the best on the market. I know this by experience..... 8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ian on January 17, 2024, 08:09:07 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 17, 2024, 07:25:23 AMNot Marantz they are a shell of their former self.  I don't know your budget but I've heard good things about Outlaw Audio for the $1k range for an integrated amp.  I myself didn't go the integrated amp route (but separates).
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll take a look.
I don't really have a budget in mind but both McInstosh units together would be around my self imposed upper limit. I'm not particularly looking for really high end stuff but I would like a very nice sounding system that will last. I tend to follow the buy once, buy well philosophy. Which doesn't necessarily mean expensive. The Musical Fidelity A1 amp I mentioned is around the £1500 / €1600 mark.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 17, 2024, 08:53:48 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 16, 2024, 02:30:54 PMDoes your 78 player play only 78's or is it more versatile?
I have modified this Thorens TD 125 Mk. II to spin 78 instead of 16 2/3 rpm. One for all speeds.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 17, 2024, 01:29:48 PM
My low volume listening experiment hit gold today.  Suddenly the music sounded normal instead of quiet.  The detail and sound stage were suddenly way improved.  I also felt like it was much closer to how music sounded like when I was younger and I couldn't afford equipment that jacked the equipment up to live levels.  I think the former was due to using 1x gain which reduced harmonic distortion and the noise floor (on both my stereo preamp and my headphone amp). 

I'm pretty happy, especially since I'm middle aged and want to conserve my hearing for as long as I can.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 18, 2024, 04:16:36 AM
I've just received and am configuring one of the these 'MeLE Quieter3Q' mini-PCs to function as a streamer and player for my main stereo system.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/714LNlKqfuL._AC_SL1500_.jpg)

This device is almost incredibly small and silent for being fanless;  it runs Window 11;  my old mini was Windows 10.  It will be streaming music files from my Synology NAS device;  it will send signal via USB to my Topping D90 DAC and thence to my preamp.

As as music player I'll be using Foobar2000 which I've used for many years;  this time version 2.1, 64 bit.  I use Foobar's 'Columns UI' interface version.  My personalized configuration looks like this:

(https://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=20428&f=foobargui.jpg)

I'll be using the 'Mathaudio Room EQ (https://mathaudio.com/room-eq.htm)' plug-in for Foobar2000 to do some frequency response smoothing.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 18, 2024, 07:18:16 AM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 18, 2024, 04:16:36 AMI've just received and am configuring one of the these 'MeLE Quieter3Q' mini-PCs to function as a streamer and player for my main stereo system.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/714LNlKqfuL._AC_SL1500_.jpg)

This device is almost incredibly small and silent for being fanless;  it runs Window 11;  my old mini was Windows 10.  It will be streaming music files from my Synology NAS device;  it will send signal via USB to my Topping D90 DAC and thence to my preamp.

As as music player I'll be using Foobar2000 which I've used for many years;  this time version 2.1, 64 bit.  I use Foobar's 'Columns UI' interface version.  My personalized configuration looks like this:

(https://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=20428&f=foobargui.jpg)

I'll be using the 'Mathaudio Room EQ (https://mathaudio.com/room-eq.htm)' plug-in for Foobar2000 to do some frequency response smoothing.



Looks like a neat little machine.

I'm still using a Raspberry Pi4 running Ubuntu as my streamer.  This also runs CamillaDSP to do room correction and the crossover for my 2.1 system.  The Pi4 is connected to a Motu M4 audio device that has 4 output channels, 2 mic inputs for room measurements, and a line input that is hooked up to my phono pre-amp.  So even my analog playback is converted to digital and gets the room correction filters applied to it.  I use Acourate to create the room correction filters. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ian on January 18, 2024, 08:41:08 AM
Quote from: Harry on January 17, 2024, 07:32:14 AMA real audiophile, with the budget at hand of course, must eventually go for the SACD players of Esoteric, simply the best on the market. I know this by experience..... 8)
Thanks for the suggestion. As mentioned I'm not an audiophile, real or fake, I'm just looking for a more than "good enough" sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 18, 2024, 10:19:12 AM
Quote from: Daverz on January 18, 2024, 07:18:16 AMLooks like a neat little machine.

I'm still using a Raspberry Pi4 running Ubuntu as my streamer.  This also runs CamillaDSP to do room correction and the crossover for my 2.1 system.  The Pi4 is connected to a Motu M4 audio device that has 4 output channels, 2 mic inputs for room measurements, and a line input that is hooked up to my phono pre-amp.  So even my analog playback is converted to digital and gets the room correction filters applied to it.  I use Acourate to create the room correction filters. 

Sounds pretty neat.  So if I'm understanding properly, Acourate will produce FIR convolution files;  how/on what device do you apply these FIR files?  Is that using CamillaDSP on the Pi4?

So is your repro'd sequence:  computer source -> RPi 4 with CamillaDSP -> Motu M4 -> amplifiers?

As for FR correction, I'm sure the Acourate>CamillaDSP solution is more refined, but the MathAudio Foobar plug-in is certainly easier for the lazy person.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 18, 2024, 01:33:39 PM
Quote from: Fëanor on January 18, 2024, 10:19:12 AMSounds pretty neat.  So if I'm understanding properly, Acourate will produce FIR convolution files;  how/on what device do you apply these FIR files?  Is that using CamillaDSP on the Pi4?

So is your repro'd sequence:  computer source -> RPi 4 with CamillaDSP -> Motu M4 -> amplifiers?

Yes, I copy the FIR filters to the RPi, and CamillaDSP does the convolution and channel routing for the main speakers and subwoofer.

There's an Ubuntu Server box in the loft running Logitech Media Server that has my music library on it and the RPi4 runs Squeezelite, the streaming client for LMS.  The chain is

LMS --Ethernet-> RPi4 -> 2 channels in to Squeezelite -> CamillaDSP out to 4 channels --USB-> Motu M4

I also do volume control in the digital domain with CamillaDSP.  I use a FLIRC infrared reciever to get volume up/down from a remote and the volume is displayed on a small monitor.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on January 18, 2024, 03:27:46 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on January 15, 2024, 03:47:40 PMThe only aspect of Roon I dislike is its playlist format. With JRiver, I could create playlists by historical eras (Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, and Contemporary) or whatever I chose to title them. It would display the cover, but the individual tracks were not visible until I clicked on the cover image. With Roon's user-created playlists, all of the tracks are in a vertical list under the album's cover image, and since some recordings have literally hundreds of tracks, and some playlists have hundreds of albums, I'd have to plow through maybe a thousand or more tracks to get to the recording I want. So, with Roon, a work around is to use its bookmark tool. I can title it whatever I want, and as long as a recording contains that word, then it groups them together and like with JR, the individual tracks only appear once I click on the cover image. Instead of historical eras, I created one for guitar, piano, symphony, sonata, trio, quartet, quintet, concerto, etc. If the key word does not appear in the title, then I can edit the name and add it. I also created a separate bookmark for my Qobuz files and my downloaded files. Otherwise, if I want to view my entire library, I'd have to scroll through nearly 5,000 albums! Roon allows sorting by all sorts of criteria, including recording resolution! So, once one gets familiar with its possibilities, it's quite an impressive program. With JR I often found myself gravitating toward the same historical era fairly often, so having them sorted by my two favorite solo instruments and musical forms instead, I tend  to explore  more of the recordings I have. Another plus is since it's Linux based, there are no drivers, which caused me no end of headaches with my HP laptop.

If I haven't addressed any particular question you have about Roon, don't hesitate to ask.

Thanks, that was indeed helpful. The last time I tried it with 2.xx it's like I had to "trick" it in order to find specific works, this tip from someone on another board like to find a specific concerto - "click on My Library > Albums. On the left, Focus on Genre Classical and Composer (name). Then on the right, filter by the word concerto."

I don't mind JRiver's poor networking capability because for the time being I only have a single stereo in a dedicated listening room and I can do fanless PC (same room as the stereo) -> network switch -> (AES67) Merging NADAC.

But I want to add several speakers to both living rooms and a loft lounging type living room on the second floor that overlooks the main living room. That is where Roon would be a major benefit, where I can have just a single server with all my music rather than having to have a computer at each setup.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 19, 2024, 09:16:10 AM
It occurred to me after spending probably about an hour plus dusting my stereo equipment, cabinet, tv and cable box (including lifting the t.v out of the cabinet, dusting and then putting it back) that there is something to be said for "less is more" in terms having "things" (meaning equipment).  And I also realized that I still have to dust my speakers (which also means carefully sliding them so that I can vacuum the wood floor under them.  And the little feet that the spikes sit in...well, at least one of them always comes off in the process (floor is old and uneven).

I know...I'm lucky to have such problems!  ;)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 19, 2024, 09:54:17 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on January 15, 2024, 03:47:40 PMsome recordings have literally hundreds of tracks

I am truly baffled. What recording do you have, that contains hundreds of tracks?  :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 19, 2024, 09:59:27 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 19, 2024, 09:54:17 AMI am truly baffled. What recording do you have, that contains hundreds of tracks?  :o

This is not that unusual with downloads where all the tracks in a set are offered in a single folder.  The Maria Callas Live download has 736 flacs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mapman on January 19, 2024, 10:38:33 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 19, 2024, 09:54:17 AMI am truly baffled. What recording do you have, that contains hundreds of tracks?  :o

This (single) CD has 73! Each variation has its own track.

(https://i.discogs.com/YBMUDgKBYu7Pz3DGeum_cz5bhc4Dvo2gOhqpICqthTA/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:398/w:400/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTc1NDI0/NjUtMTQ0MzY0NDE0/OC05OTM2LmpwZWc.jpeg)

A CD of Bartok's For Children has 84 tracks. And a CD of Mikrokosmos volumes 1-4 has 98 tracks.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 19, 2024, 10:58:36 AM
Quote from: Daverz on January 19, 2024, 09:59:27 AMThis is not that unusual with downloads where all the tracks in a set are offered in a single folder.  The Maria Callas Live download has 736 flacs.

Ah, boxsets of tens of CDs, that makes sense indeed. I was thinking in terms of individual recordings.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 19, 2024, 11:01:07 AM
Quote from: Mapman on January 19, 2024, 10:38:33 AMThis (single) CD has 73! Each variation has its own track.

(https://i.discogs.com/YBMUDgKBYu7Pz3DGeum_cz5bhc4Dvo2gOhqpICqthTA/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:398/w:400/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTc1NDI0/NjUtMTQ0MzY0NDE0/OC05OTM2LmpwZWc.jpeg)

A CD of Bartok's For Children has 84 tracks. And a CD of Mikrokosmos volumes 1-4 has 98 tracks.

Okay but that's literally tens, not hundreds of tracks. I can't think of an individual CD I own that has hundreds of tracks. Boxsets are a different matter.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on January 19, 2024, 11:02:54 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 19, 2024, 09:54:17 AMI am truly baffled. What recording do you have, that contains hundreds of tracks?  :o
A lot of box sets do. This recent addition to my library has 136 tracks.
EDIT: I didn't see your comment about box sets before I posted my response.
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ha/90/o91vrl5hv90ha_600.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on January 19, 2024, 11:04:15 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 19, 2024, 11:01:07 AMOkay but that's literally tens, not hundreds of tracks. I can't think of an individual CD I own that has hundreds of tracks. Boxsets are a different matter.
I wasn't referring to a single disc with that many tracks, just recordings in my Qobuz library.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 19, 2024, 11:05:44 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on January 19, 2024, 11:02:54 AMA lot of box sets do. This recent addition to my library has 136 tracks.
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ha/90/o91vrl5hv90ha_600.jpg)

Quote from: Bachtoven on January 19, 2024, 11:04:15 AMI wasn't referring to a single disc with that many tracks, just recordings in my Qobuz library.

Got it now, thanks for clarifying the issue.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Florestan on January 19, 2024, 11:24:52 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on January 19, 2024, 11:02:54 AMEDIT: I didn't see your comment about box sets before I posted my response.


No problem, the matter is settled. Now that I think of it, monsters like the Philips Complete Mozart Edition or the Warner Callas Complete Studio Recordings must have literally thousands of tracks. I will check tomorrow. :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on January 19, 2024, 11:30:34 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on January 19, 2024, 11:02:54 AMA lot of box sets do. This recent addition to my library has 136 tracks.
EDIT: I didn't see your comment about box sets before I posted my response.
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ha/90/o91vrl5hv90ha_600.jpg)

If this was posted to the New Releases thread I missed it, another to add to my to stream list!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ian on January 28, 2024, 03:07:57 PM
Does anyone use a subwoofer? Would it make sense to use one with classical music?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 28, 2024, 08:59:56 PM
Quote from: Ian on January 28, 2024, 03:07:57 PMDoes anyone use a subwoofer? Would it make sense to use one with classical music?

Whether it's worthwhile for classical music is going to depend on how low in frequency your main speakers can go and how loud you can listen.  I use my subwoofer with bookshelf speakers and let the subwoofer handle everything below 110 Hz, which takes some strain off the mains in the big musical moments.  Also that way I can put the subwoofer close to a wall where it gets some volume boost from the room and put the mains further out into the room away from walls.

Another consideration is that to get the most out of it, you need some kind of electronics with "bass management", like an audio-video receiver or something like a minidsp. 

I use an SVS SB-1000 Pro.  This is a active (built-in amp), sealed (no port) model with a 12 inch woofer and DSP control.  It's a surprisingly light and small subwoofer without being one of the "micro" models.


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on January 28, 2024, 09:24:45 PM
Quote from: Ian on January 28, 2024, 03:07:57 PMDoes anyone use a subwoofer? Would it make sense to use one with classical music?
I do, and for chamber or solo music it doesn't add much, but for orchestral music it adds some weight, and bass drums come across better. Of course, it's a huge help for large pipe organs. I have an SVS Ultra 13 sub. It's no longer made, sadly. Like Daverz' SVS, it has a built-in amp.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: ultralinear on January 29, 2024, 02:07:41 AM
Quote from: Ian on January 28, 2024, 03:07:57 PMDoes anyone use a subwoofer? Would it make sense to use one with classical music?

+1 to the above responses. :)

I have a Rega Vulcan which sits unobtrusively in the corner and fills out the bottom octave where my main speakers don't go.  It's not identifiable as a source of sound, its effect is to fill out the sound coming from the main rig, and that effect is significant across most kinds of music - orchestral, obviously, but also solo piano.

Whether - and what type of - a subwoofer would work for you will depend on what main speakers it would be working with, and also the size & shape of the room.  No point trying to get down very low in a small room.

Adjustment is also important - I did mine by ear, with a deal of trial & error - a mini-DSP like @Daverz mentioned would take the guesswork out of it (one of these days I must get one. ::) ;D )
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 29, 2024, 03:19:58 AM
Quote from: Ian on January 28, 2024, 03:07:57 PMDoes anyone use a subwoofer? Would it make sense to use one with classical music?
I have two with two 12" each in small boxes, playing mono. Upper crossover frequency 45 Hz because I have dipole speakers above that.
The subs really get some work to do on the new LP release of the Boston/Steinberg Zarathustra. I'm not really sure if the 16 Hz C is played, I cut hard below 20. 32 Hz is still menacing.
The heart (or brains) of my 4-way main system is a MiniDSP Flex Eight. No analog crossovers here since 2009 cause 3-way dipoles are difficult*, but the little box from Hong Kong is a whole lot easier to work with (and stable!) than an 8 ch out RME sound card and a PC running PLparEQ filters was. But I digress. Full range is good, especially for classical/acoustic music.

*Yes I know Siegfried Linkwitz did analog for his complex LX521, but he was Linkwitz in Linkwitz-Riley...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ian on January 29, 2024, 03:52:11 AM
Thank you all for your interesting answers.

For info my speakers are focal 816 W. At the moment my amp is a NAD 315BBE with no dedicated sub woofer output but is see that REL deliver a cable to be used directly on the speaker outputs.
My room is quite small but I always seem to be missing bass at low volume. I typically listen at around 55-60dB. And I like to "feel" the bass as much as hear it. I was thinking indeed that for the organ it would be great, I can imagine RWV 7th and Jongen's Symphonie Concertante with a sub woofer must take them to a new dimension.

@ Bachtoven, I see you have a McIntosh amp. I need to upgrade my amp and the McIntosh MA252, which has a dedicated sub out, is on my list. But I was thinking maybe, due to their history, McIntosh may be more suited to rock music. How do you find your amp with classical? I guess you are happy with it? I have not had the opportunity to hear any amps yet but that one and the Sugden A21 and Musical Fidelity A1 are on my list.

I am thinking about the REL Acoustics Classic 98,for my system.

Quote from: Valentino on January 29, 2024, 03:19:58 AMThe subs really get some work to do on the new LP release of the Boston/Steinberg Zarathustra.

Is this from the 3 (or 4?) LP box set? I was thinking about that too... just because it contains my favourite performance of the Planets. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 29, 2024, 07:14:33 AM
Yes, it's the 3 LP set which is quickly becoming unobtanium. They made 2100 copies in the first numbered batch.
(https://bigdipper.no/Media/Cache/Images/1/4/WEB_Image_Wiliiam_Steinberg___Boston_Symphony%E2%80%A6_Ste_0028948645169_2-2093934612_plid_172164.jpeg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 29, 2024, 09:30:08 AM
Quote from: Ian on January 29, 2024, 03:52:11 AMMy room is quite small but I always seem to be missing bass at low volume. I typically listen at around 55-60dB. And I like to "feel" the bass as much as hear it.

Fletcher-Munson curve applies here!  It is too quiet for you to hear the bass (due to limits in human hearing).  That is why older amps had a loudness control to boost the bass and treble at low volumes to still sound full.  It is too bad that modern pre-amps and amps ditch that.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.first.edu%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F06%2FScreen-Shot-2021-06-02-at-10.20.05-AM-1024x426.png&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=1df9b6fc6be66d1e68e07c43df31d7cff8bc95b9a50393746ded42caf0590e07&ipo=images)

How you read the curve is how high it has to be to sound the same.  If the curve is flat they all sound the same.  You can see that it flattens at high volumes and is strongly U shaped at low volumes (meaning that bass and treble would have to be dramatically increased for you to hear it as easily as midrange).

I'm pointing this out because you can buy a subwoofer and still not benefit from the bass.

You might be better off buying a pre-amp with a loudness control!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on January 29, 2024, 10:42:19 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 29, 2024, 09:30:08 AMFletcher-Munson curve applies here!  It is too quiet for you to hear the bass (due to limits in human hearing).  That is why older amps had a loudness control to boost the bass and treble at low volumes to still sound full.  It is too bad that modern pre-amps and amps ditch that.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.first.edu%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F06%2FScreen-Shot-2021-06-02-at-10.20.05-AM-1024x426.png&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=1df9b6fc6be66d1e68e07c43df31d7cff8bc95b9a50393746ded42caf0590e07&ipo=images)

How you read the curve is how high it has to be to sound the same.  If the curve is flat they all sound the same.  You can see that it flattens at high volumes and is strongly U shaped at low volumes (meaning that bass and treble would have to be dramatically increased for you to hear it as easily as midrange).

I'm pointing this out because you can buy a subwoofer and still not benefit from the bass.

You might be better off buying a pre-amp with a loudness control!

The trouble with loudness controls is that they assume your speakers have some sensitivity. If you speakers are more sensitive (require less power) the loudness will kick in even when playing loud and if they are less sensitive (require more power to drive) the loudness will only kick in when playing very softly.

If you're listening through some sort of computer gadget you can use the equalizer to balance the sound at your preferred volume (or get an old school equalizer if you are using an analog system). I had a Harmon-Kardon 10 band equalizer in the day.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 29, 2024, 11:39:39 AM
Fond memories of a Yamaha FM receiver I once had with variable loudness control.  :)
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/42750692@N07/20842862326/in/photostream/lightbox/)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on January 29, 2024, 11:55:41 AM
Quote from: Valentino on January 29, 2024, 03:19:58 AMI have two with two 12" each in small boxes, playing mono. Upper crossover frequency 45 Hz because I have dipole speakers above that.

Good point raised here.

Many who buy subs don't realise that even if you get two of them the sound still comes out of them in mono. It's how they integrate them with your main speakers that give the stereo/surround effect. The plus of this is that you can virtually place them anywhere you like in the room. The style of the subwoofer and where its port/s are will go some way to helping you determine that. For example I added a subwoofer to the soundbar that's connected to my TV. While I face the soundbar, which sits below the TV screen, the sub sits behind my chair out of the way. The sub in my desktop system sits at the bottom of my computer desk at my feet with the side firing port aimed at the side of the desk.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 29, 2024, 12:29:39 PM
I think the virtue of having two subs is that it might be easier to obtain a flatter bass response across the room (due to the difficulty of having standing wave destructive and constructive interference at different bass frequencies).  One usually doesn't worry about stereo imaging when the wavelengths are comparable to the size of the room itself.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on February 02, 2024, 05:08:33 PM
I was able to hear KEF Blade Meta 2, I was blown away by what I heard. Among the best speakers I've heard at reproducing symphony music. Not surprisingly being pretty much the best measuring speakers directivity FR wise they sounded dead even throughout their entire bandwidth. Putting in Etymotic earplugs and playing way louder than I would ever listen I could not detect any compression.

Recreating a spiritual double header I came into a few weeks ago- Celibidache's live Munchner Bruckner Symphony 8 and Franck's Prelude, Chorale, and Fugue played by Michel Block. Sadly I could not listen to both pieces in full but it confirmed what I'd known; an incredible stereo elevates the emotional response of already great music/performances.

Now on my short list for shared space speakers.

Next will be the NYC dealer for MBL 101e for speakers I want to upgrade in the dedicated listening room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 03, 2024, 05:52:54 AM
@Atriod my previous speakers were Kef and oh man they sounded good.  My current speakers don't have a clear upgrade path within their brand (Paradigm) because the flagships are just not much better... so when I want to upgrade my speakers I'll probably be looking at Kef again (and a few others on my mind).  I don't know when that would be, definitely not for a few years.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on February 03, 2024, 08:53:22 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 03, 2024, 05:52:54 AM@Atriod my previous speakers were Kef and oh man they sounded good.  My current speakers don't have a clear upgrade path within their brand (Paradigm) because the flagships are just not much better... so when I want to upgrade my speakers I'll probably be looking at Kef again (and a few others on my mind).  I don't know when that would be, definitely not for a few years.

I used to own the first generation LS50, they've come a long way since then. I ended up selling them due to some lower mid coloration, seems like the Meta iteration drivers have fixed that. LS60 Meta (per Erin or Kef's directivity measurements) look really good too except for the speaker protection kicking in at spls that would occur at my listening distance with symphony and some solo keyboard music.

I would definitely keep a close eye on what this company is doing!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 18, 2024, 09:07:51 AM
I'm thinking of buying an NAD C700 and selling off my separates (excepting the cd transport of course).  With an hdmi earc I can also replace my soundbar as well.  It would handle streaming, playing my flac library, preamp and amp all in one... and it uses the same app that I'm already using for my Node.

(https://images.crutchfieldonline.com/ImageHandler/trim/3000/1950/products/2021/41/745/g745C700-F.jpg) (https://www.crutchfield.com/p_745C700/NAD-C-700.html?tp=34948)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 18, 2024, 10:43:56 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 18, 2024, 09:07:51 AMI'm thinking of buying an NAD C700 and selling off my separates (excepting the cd transport of course).  With an hdmi earc I can also replace my soundbar as well.  It would handle streaming, playing my flac library, preamp and amp all in one... and it uses the same app that I'm already using for my Node.

(https://images.crutchfieldonline.com/ImageHandler/trim/3000/1950/products/2021/41/745/g745C700-F.jpg) (https://www.crutchfield.com/p_745C700/NAD-C-700.html?tp=34948)

Love this little fellöw, although I would go for the bigger Masters Series M10 V2, really worth the money, and Roon compatible.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 18, 2024, 10:45:15 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 18, 2024, 09:07:51 AMI'm thinking of buying an NAD C700 and selling off my separates (excepting the cd transport of course).  With an hdmi earc I can also replace my soundbar as well.  It would handle streaming, playing my flac library, preamp and amp all in one... and it uses the same app that I'm already using for my Node.

(https://images.crutchfieldonline.com/ImageHandler/trim/3000/1950/products/2021/41/745/g745C700-F.jpg) (https://www.crutchfield.com/p_745C700/NAD-C-700.html?tp=34948)

A step in the right direction.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 18, 2024, 05:58:40 PM
Quote from: Harry on February 18, 2024, 10:43:56 AMLove this little fellöw, although I would go for the bigger Masters Series M10 V2, really worth the money, and Roon compatible.

I went with that... the M10 V2 is on its way.  If I don't like it, I'll return it.  If I do like it, then I'll sell all those individual components.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 19, 2024, 12:23:27 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 18, 2024, 05:58:40 PMI went with that... the M10 V2 is on its way.  If I don't like it, I'll return it.  If I do like it, then I'll sell all those individual components.

Well I am happy you did, the M10 is a big step forward, and everything inside is on a higher level. I had that piece of equipment on loan from a friend who went on a 3 months holiday, and I was amazed at what this NAD could do. Good choice. I am very curious as to what you think of it, very curious indeed!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 19, 2024, 02:32:01 AM
Quote from: Harry on February 19, 2024, 12:23:27 AMWell I am happy you did, the M10 is a big step forward, and everything inside is on a higher level. I had that piece of equipment on loan from a friend who went on a 3 months holiday, and I was amazed at what this NAD could do. Good choice. I am very curious as to what you think of it, very curious indeed!

Provided the speakers and cables match adequately with the M10.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 19, 2024, 02:51:07 AM
Quote from: Harry on February 19, 2024, 01:43:45 AMEverything is subjective, and therefore it is no argument. Please do not start again a pointless and endless discussion about high end gear. And for the record, this NAD is a good piece of equipment, and I think this will serve  well with most, subjective or objective. :)

Don't worry Harry, I'm not planning to start a discussion about high end gear. I have been a NAD fan from early 90's. NAD 302 was my first amplifier and my current amplifier is NAD T758. My CD player is NAD C 565BEE. I also have NAD C 440 tuner, but I have hardly any use for it. Unfortunately in the recent years I have had my problems with NAD (565BEE had to be repared twice after just a few years of use and last year I had to change the rubber belt to the disc loader). NAD products were very robust and long lasting in the past, but nowadays they seem to require lot of maintenance/repair. At the same time the prices of NAD products have gone through the roof. Pity.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on February 19, 2024, 02:56:11 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on February 19, 2024, 02:32:01 AMProvided the speakers and cables match adequately with the M10.

NAD amps are known for driving almost any speakers without problems, so you won't have problems with that! As for "finetuning" the sound with cables, that's your problem...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 19, 2024, 03:00:46 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on February 19, 2024, 02:32:01 AMProvided the speakers and cables match adequately with the M10.

Naturalment. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 19, 2024, 05:32:37 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 18, 2024, 05:58:40 PMI went with that... the M10 V2 is on its way.  If I don't like it, I'll return it.  If I do like it, then I'll sell all those individual components.
A couple of questions for you:  1) Does your CD transport also play other formats? and 2) One thing that I've wondered about incorporating equipment like a soundbar is how quickly will the technology become obsolete (thinking of how quickly computer technology is updated)?  Any thoughts?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 19, 2024, 06:30:35 AM
@Pohjolas Daughter

1. No it is an Audiolab cd transport.  If you want to play sacds etc. you need a fancier player.  Some of the other posters have one.
2. A modern soundbar supports atmos and so is fairly future proof... it just doesn't sound as good as speakers! 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 19, 2024, 06:33:02 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on February 19, 2024, 02:32:01 AMProvided the speakers and cables match adequately with the M10.

Well the fun part about that is an excuse to upgrade speakers!! ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 19, 2024, 06:36:05 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 19, 2024, 06:30:35 AM1. No it is an Audiolab cd transport.  If you want to play sacds etc. you need a fancier player.  Some of the other posters have one.
2. A modern soundbar supports atmos and so is fairly future proof... it just doesn't sound as good as speakers! 

You would be surprised if you hear the soundbar of Sennheiser, Ambeo. My experience is that the Ambeo can beat systems much more expensive. My friends did agree about this, and 3 of them bought this soundbar, connected a streamer with it, two of them took Roon aboard, and it sounds fantastic. It has two Atmos speakers on board, and with movies it sounds the works. Plenty of rave reviews on the net.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 19, 2024, 10:12:38 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 19, 2024, 06:30:35 AM@Pohjolas Daughter

1. No it is an Audiolab cd transport.  If you want to play sacds etc. you need a fancier player.  Some of the other posters have one.
2. A modern soundbar supports atmos and so is fairly future proof... it just doesn't sound as good as speakers! 

Wrong.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 19, 2024, 10:35:41 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 19, 2024, 02:56:11 AMNAD amps are known for driving almost any speakers without problems, so you won't have problems with that! As for "finetuning" the sound with cables, that's your problem...

Not all speakers are good. The same with cables.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 20, 2024, 07:15:33 AM
71 dB this thread isn't the place for the usual audiophile arguments.  I will be moving your post to the other thread.  It is not that it is not allowed, it is just that it is off topic, never ending and frankly tiring on everyone.  So please don't take it as censorship.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 20, 2024, 07:31:36 AM
One notion on DSP: if the algorithms used are not good enough especially voices suffer.
My main stereo has been the same since 2009 but I've  used various DSP implementations for it's rather complex 4-way dipole crossover and eq over the years.
All sound bars I've heard have sounded mediocre but I haven't heard the Sennheiser mentioned.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 20, 2024, 07:34:20 AM
Quote from: Valentino on February 20, 2024, 07:31:36 AMOne notion on DSP: if the algorithms used are not good enough especially voices suffer.
My main stereo has been the same since 2009 but I've  used various DSP implementations for it's rather complex 4-way dipole crossover and eq over the years.
All sound bars I've heard have sounded mediocre but I haven't heard the Sennheiser mentioned.

High time you do. If I was surprised, you will be surprised. It defeats almost all competitors.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 20, 2024, 08:19:26 AM
It really is a pity that I'm not in the market for a soundbar. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 20, 2024, 08:20:05 AM
Quote from: Harry on February 20, 2024, 07:34:20 AMHigh time you do. If I was surprised, you will be surprised. It defeats almost all competitors.

What I find particularly attractive about one-box solutions is that ideally everything is perfectly integrated and all parts matched by one designer or designer team. You don't have to worry about matching components from different manufacturers, choose right interconnects, etc. Of course, there is still the question of external power and network cables.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 20, 2024, 09:03:25 AM
Quote from: Valentino on February 20, 2024, 08:19:26 AMIt really is a pity that I'm not in the market for a soundbar. :)

Well then, you never will know how fantastic it can sound :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 20, 2024, 09:06:26 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on February 20, 2024, 08:20:05 AMWhat I find particularly attractive about one-box solutions is that ideally everything is perfectly integrated and all parts matched by one designer or designer team. You don't have to worry about matching components from different manufacturers, choose right interconnects, etc. Of course, there is still the question of external power and network cables.

Yes of course, I tuned the system in my office as far as the soundbar allowed me. The fine tuning resulted in a sound I did not expect. Putting a Cambridge streamer in the works proved to be the game changer, and some Audioquest cables.  Internet got a proper cable too. And of course Roon is important too.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 20, 2024, 03:12:12 PM
Well I've received the amp (I live so close to Crutchfield that it is next day shipping.  I'll set it up and give it a spin.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 20, 2024, 08:36:37 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 20, 2024, 03:12:12 PMWell I've received the amp (I live so close to Crutchfield that it is next day shipping.  I'll set it up and give it a spin.

I hope you enjoy it. In any case, give yourself time to adapt. Every system needs time for burn-in, including the one between your ears ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 20, 2024, 08:40:10 PM
Quote from: Harry on February 20, 2024, 09:06:26 AMYes of course, I tuned the system in my office as far as the soundbar allowed me. The fine tuning resulted in a sound I did not expect. Putting a Cambridge streamer in the works proved to be the game changer, and some Audioquest cables.  Internet got a proper cable too. And of course Roon is important too.

Network cables did a trick in my system. Including one from optical converter to router. Big, big change.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on February 20, 2024, 09:44:25 PM
Speaking of cables, this power cord arrived today for a component that will arrive shortly. (The company prefers that customers provide their own.) Its length is not that impressive, but look at that girth... :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMvmQq9h/IMG-1974-1.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/L8ZV00MR/IMG-1976-1.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 21, 2024, 01:52:28 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on February 20, 2024, 09:44:25 PMSpeaking of cables, this power cord arrived today for a component that will arrive shortly. (The company prefers that customers provide their own.) Its length is not that impressive, but look at that girth... :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMvmQq9h/IMG-1974-1.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/L8ZV00MR/IMG-1976-1.jpg)

Looks impressive. Hope it will work well for you.

Everything to do with power supply is often underestimated, quite unjustifiably. Of course, it's not just cables that are important. I use dedicated LPSUs for various components, including a wi-fi router and an optical signal converter. The difference in sound is amazing. I'd recommend giving it a try to anyone who wants to listen only to music, without added noise and distortion of all sorts.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 21, 2024, 04:21:08 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on February 20, 2024, 09:44:25 PMSpeaking of cables, this power cord arrived today for a component that will arrive shortly. (The company prefers that customers provide their own.) Its length is not that impressive, but look at that girth... :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMvmQq9h/IMG-1974-1.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/L8ZV00MR/IMG-1976-1.jpg)

Does it have a U/L rating?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 21, 2024, 04:33:21 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on February 20, 2024, 09:44:25 PMSpeaking of cables, this power cord arrived today for a component that will arrive shortly. (The company prefers that customers provide their own.) Its length is not that impressive, but look at that girth... :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMvmQq9h/IMG-1974-1.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/L8ZV00MR/IMG-1976-1.jpg)
I haven't heard of that before.  Which company is that?  And whose power cord did you buy?

Quote from: AnotherSpin on February 21, 2024, 01:52:28 AMLooks impressive. Hope it will work well for you.

Everything to do with power supply is often underestimated, quite unjustifiably. Of course, it's not just cables that are important. I use dedicated LPSUs for various components, including a wi-fi router and an optical signal converter. The difference in sound is amazing. I'd recommend giving it a try to anyone who wants to listen only to music, without added noise and distortion of all sorts.
How does that work?  Do you have a separate electrical panel for your equipment?  Not familiar with what an LPSU is.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 21, 2024, 04:57:16 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 21, 2024, 04:33:21 AMI haven't heard of that before.  Which company is that?  And whose power cord did you buy?
How does that work?  Do you have a separate electrical panel for your equipment?  Not familiar with what an LPSU is.

PD

PD, just Google LPSU, and you will quickly find out what it is and what it does. I use them throughout my system too.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 21, 2024, 06:00:29 AM
Quote from: Harry on February 21, 2024, 04:57:16 AMPD, just Google LPSU, and you will quickly find out what it is and what it does. I use them throughout my system too.
When I first typed in "What is an LPSU" earlier, the results that I was given had to do with the internal power supply for a computer (or PSU) which didn't seem to fit--even though I had typed in the "L".  This time, I just typed in "LPSU?" and was given the correct info.

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 21, 2024, 06:40:47 AM
Got it setup.  Everything works.  I get to use an ethernet cable instead of wifi since it is next to the router now.  I will be running Dirac tonight.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 21, 2024, 06:48:50 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 21, 2024, 06:40:47 AMGot it setup.  Everything works.  I get to use an ethernet cable instead of wifi since it is next to the router now.  I will be running Dirac tonight.

Well you can imagine that I am very curious about what you find of it. The ethernet cable is a good choice, more stable.  Give it some time to break in, that always takes a little while!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 21, 2024, 06:54:33 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 21, 2024, 04:33:21 AMI haven't heard of that before.  Which company is that?  And whose power cord did you buy?
How does that work?  Do you have a separate electrical panel for your equipment?  Not familiar with what an LPSU is.

PD

I have a separate cable for the entire sound system. In any case, it's better to take care that the audio is not powered by the same cable as the fridge or fluorescent lamps ;)

LPSU - I realised you had already found the answer.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 21, 2024, 07:24:57 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on February 21, 2024, 06:54:33 AM*I have a separate cable for the entire sound system. **In any case, it's better to take care that the audio is not powered by the same cable as the fridge or fluorescent lamps ;)

LPSU - I realised you had already found the answer.
*I believe that that is the same thing as a dedicated power supply?

**As in buzzing/interference, etc.?

And is there a difference between a LPSU and a power conditioner?  Is a PC a generic word which covers various devices?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on February 21, 2024, 07:33:02 AM
Quote from: Daverz on February 21, 2024, 04:21:08 AMDoes it have a U/L rating?
I don't see one.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on February 21, 2024, 07:34:45 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 21, 2024, 04:33:21 AMI haven't heard of that before.  Which company is that?  And whose power cord did you buy?
PD
1) Denafrips
2) Monosaudio
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 21, 2024, 07:59:25 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 21, 2024, 07:24:57 AM*I believe that that is the same thing as a dedicated power supply?

**As in buzzing/interference, etc.?

And is there a difference between a LPSU and a power conditioner?  Is a PC a generic word which covers various devices?

PD

A separate cable of higher than usual quality was allocated for audio. There are many descriptions of the differences between LPS and conventional power supplies online. I'll tell you about the effect on sound quality. To my ears it ensures more natural, full and clear sound, less background noise and distortion.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 25, 2024, 08:03:56 AM
Alright after several hours of use including tv, cds, streaming, and usb flac files here is what I think of the NAD m10 v2.

The good:
Once I sorted out some settings I had it effortlessly switching inputs.  I liked how I could also just push play and autoresume whatever I was playing on streaming or usb before.  And I liked how very quick it was to power on and get going.  Unlike my preamp which takes an entire minute to warm up.

The combo with my speakers made tv way better.  The dialogue is far more clear at a lower volume and with less distortion.  And in fact I would say that my experience with tv was a huge home run.

The bad:
The bluos app defaults to 4.0 which hides the sources!  I had to revert to an older version just to switch inputs.  Which are also not on the remote.  The remote is just for bluos and doesn't allow you to switch inputs!?!  I'm sure the sources are somewhere in 4.0 but I couldn't find them.  Once I enabled auto switching and frequently use the different inputs, they then appear on the homescreen.

Another annoying thing is that if you manually switch input you also have to hit play even if it is just a source and not a music file.  That is non-intuitive and I think kind of stupid.

I also had a reboot out of the middle of nowhere.

The instructions are awful.  They either say nothing or are grossly incomplete.  I end up having to google everything.  Except using Dirac which was a 20+ step process for something that should be simple.  And little did I know that it can't be done on the mobile app.

But these are not deal breakers.  Because eventually I figure it out, I deal with it, and I move on.  But there are deal breakers.

The ugly:
The coax input has audible noise.  It is not loud at normal volumes, but I could hear it.  That would be unacceptable even in entry level gear, but in something this expensive... the lack of QC is completely inappropriate.  Now I could use optical, or I could swap the unit... however...

The amp is just too bright, and it doesn't have that smooth NAD sound (like my cheaper poweramp has).  I have found other people online that complained about it.  And one had my speakers in particular, and switched to Hegel and was way more satisfied with the sound.

But yeah I think it goes back.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 25, 2024, 08:13:54 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 25, 2024, 08:03:56 AMAlright after several hours of use including tv, cds, streaming, and usb flac files here is what I think of the NAD m10 v2.

The good:
Once I sorted out some settings I had it effortlessly switching inputs.  I liked how I could also just push play and autoresume whatever I was playing on streaming or usb before.  And I liked how very quick it was to power on and get going.  Unlike my preamp which takes an entire minute to warm up.

The combo with my speakers made tv way better.  The dialogue is far more clear at a lower volume and with less distortion.  And in fact I would say that my experience with tv was a huge home run.

The bad:
The bluos app defaults to 4.0 which hides the sources!  I had to revert to an older version just to switch inputs.  Which are also not on the remote.  The remote is just for bluos and doesn't allow you to switch inputs!?!  I'm sure the sources are somewhere in 4.0 but I couldn't find them.  Once I enabled auto switching and frequently use the different inputs, they then appear on the homescreen.

Another annoying thing is that if you manually switch input you also have to hit play even if it is just a source and not a music file.  That is non-intuitive and I think kind of stupid.

I also had a reboot out of the middle of nowhere.

The instructions are awful.  They either say nothing or are grossly incomplete.  I end up having to google everything.  Except using Dirac which was a 20+ step process for something that should be simple.  And little did I know that it can't be done on the mobile app.

But these are not deal breakers.  Because eventually I figure it out, I deal with it, and I move on.  But there are deal breakers.

The ugly:
The coax input has audible noise.  It is not loud at normal volumes, but I could hear it.  That would be unacceptable even in entry level gear, but in something this expensive... the lack of QC is completely inappropriate.  Now I could use optical, or I could swap the unit... however...

The amp is just too bright, and it doesn't have that smooth NAD sound (like my cheaper poweramp has).  I have found other people online that complained about it.  And one had my speakers in particular, and switched to Hegel and was way more satisfied with the sound.

But yeah I think it goes back.

I am sorry to hear this, I do not recognize the things you experienced, when I had this set in my system. As to the bright sound, one always has to remember, that it takes time before the NAD will settle. I have also read reviews about this NAD, and did not encounter the negatives you found. But it is and will always be a subjective issue. Again I am sorry, for I told you it was far better as the earlier choice you wanted to make. Hope you will eventually find what you need :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 25, 2024, 08:31:07 AM
@Harry I think that synergy between components really is a thing.  The Paradigm speakers that I have are very analytical and neutral and just pair better with something warmer and more engaging to bring an overall balance.  Which is why the Denafrips->Schiit Freya->NAD worked so well with them.

I just have to keep looking.  I'll find it. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on February 25, 2024, 10:23:45 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 25, 2024, 08:31:07 AM@Harry I think that synergy between components really is a thing.  The Paradigm speakers that I have are very analytical and neutral and just pair better with something warmer and more engaging to bring an overall balance.  Which is why the Denafrips->Schiit Freya->NAD worked so well with them.

I just have to keep looking.  I'll find it. :)

Maybe Pass Labs as amplification is an option, or Esoteric. Secondhand is an option...and they have warmth enough to feed your Paradigm Speakers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 25, 2024, 07:56:56 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 25, 2024, 08:31:07 AM@Harry I think that synergy between components really is a thing.  The Paradigm speakers that I have are very analytical and neutral and just pair better with something warmer and more engaging to bring an overall balance.  Which is why the Denafrips->Schiit Freya->NAD worked so well with them.

I just have to keep looking.  I'll find it. :)

This is what I meant by component compatibility.

Have you looked at Naim?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 26, 2024, 04:52:28 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on February 25, 2024, 07:56:56 PMThis is what I meant by component compatibility.

Have you looked at Naim?

I figured so.  I will look at Naim.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on February 26, 2024, 02:58:31 PM
My Denafrips Venus 2 DAC arrived today. Wow, straight out of the box it sounds amazing. The tone is wonderfully rich, detailed, and realistic. I know it's odd to refer to a digital device as sounding "analog," but it does! Or rather, closer to real music than most traditional chip-based DACS. (Denafrips uses R-2R or Resistor Ladder technology to convert the digital signal to analog. More information here: https://www.denafrips.com/venus) Denafrips claims it needs about 300 hours of burn-in to reach its peak performance. It's hard to imagine it will sound any better, but I guess I'll find out!
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTDYZnzn/IMG-0008.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 26, 2024, 03:45:57 PM
Steve Guttenberg turned me onto Denafrips.  It sounds so smooth and engaging.  I have the entry level.

Oh yeah and I returned that NAD amp and rebuilt my stereo.  I think I'm ready for some Mahler!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 26, 2024, 08:29:29 PM
Quote from: Bachtoven on February 26, 2024, 02:58:31 PMMy Denafrips Venus 2 DAC arrived today. Wow, straight out of the box it sounds amazing. The tone is wonderfully rich, detailed, and realistic. I know it's odd to refer to a digital device as sounding "analog," but it does! Or rather, closer to real music than most traditional chip-based DACS. (Denafrips uses R-2R or Resistor Ladder technology to convert the digital signal to analog. More information here: https://www.denafrips.com/venus) Denafrips claims it needs about 300 hours of burn-in to reach its peak performance. It's hard to imagine it will sound any better, but I guess I'll find out!
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTDYZnzn/IMG-0008.jpg)



Don't relax! The text-book sound experts will appear in a minute and explain that you love distortion and do not understand what transparent sound is ;D

On more serious note, glad you like your new DAC. Happy listening!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on February 26, 2024, 09:00:08 PM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on February 26, 2024, 08:29:29 PMDon't relax! The text-book sound experts will appear in a minute and explain that you love distortion and do not understand what transparent sound is ;D

On more serious note, glad you like your new DAC. Happy listening!
Haha, well, moderators have shown them the door once or twice, so if those folks try it again... Anyway, it's more transparent than any chip-based DAC I have owned. (Mytek, RME, iFi, McIntosh, and Chord.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 27, 2024, 04:52:48 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on February 26, 2024, 09:00:08 PMHaha, well, moderators have shown them the door once or twice, so if those folks try it again... Anyway, it's more transparent than any chip-based DAC I have owned. (Mytek, RME, iFi, McIntosh, and Chord.)

That is why Steve Guttenberg was careful to describe the Denafrips sound as "engaging" instead of "warm".  The one I have measured reasonably well on ASR as well, and these are just not the resistor ladder dacs of the 80s.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 27, 2024, 05:48:35 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 26, 2024, 03:45:57 PMOh yeah and I returned that NAD amp and rebuilt my stereo.  I think I'm ready for some Mahler!

Why return it?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 27, 2024, 06:35:10 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 27, 2024, 05:48:35 AMWhy return it?

I explained in a previous post.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on February 27, 2024, 07:22:44 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 27, 2024, 04:52:48 AMThat is why Steve Guttenberg was careful to describe the Denafrips sound as "engaging" instead of "warm".  The one I have measured reasonably well on ASR as well, and these are just not the resistor ladder dacs of the 80s.
I prefer "musical/realistic." To me, that ASR site is one massive April Fool's joke...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 27, 2024, 07:58:20 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on February 26, 2024, 09:00:08 PMHaha, well, moderators have shown them the door once or twice, so if those folks try it again... Anyway, it's more transparent than any chip-based DAC I have owned. (Mytek, RME, iFi, McIntosh, and Chord.)
Glad that you're happy with your new baby!

Question:  How do you bypass the built in DAC in the 5101?

PD

p.s.  And I hope that your two kittens are minding their paws around all of your lovely equipment!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 27, 2024, 08:40:01 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 27, 2024, 06:35:10 AMI explained in a previous post.

Found it. Sounds infuriating. I don't remember my turntables with any fondness, but I miss my first CD player. A Technics from about 1988. Such a simple interface, with continuous play mode single play mode (select a track and it plays it then stops) program mode which required a few simple clicks. And if you programed continuous tracks (4, 5, 6, 7, etc) it was smart enough to pay through them continuously. My last player, a Marantz CD/SACD player, drove me to computer playback. If you programmed continuous tracks (say, to play Ein Heldenleben) it would stop at the end of each track and seek the next track, causing it to hiccup and interrupt the music. Idiotic! I paid $5 to dump it a the country electronics recycling center, even though it was in mint condition.

All these weird streaming schemes with dedicated gadgets that I read about probably would be enough to drive me back to a turntable. I have my own minimalist setup on my Mac, Swinsian media player or Apple Music on my Mac -> Schiit DAC -> Schiit headphone amp -> headphones. On on the MacBook, the DAC is replaced by bluetooth link to headphones (which has it's own irritations, when the headphones decide to pair with the wrong device, such as my phone or another nearby computer).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bachtoven on February 27, 2024, 08:41:32 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 27, 2024, 07:58:20 AMGlad that you're happy with your new baby!

Question:  How do you bypass the built in DAC in the 5101?

PD

p.s.  And I hope that your two kittens are minding their paws around all of your lovely equipment!
I don't! I use the 5101 for CD/SACD playback. The Venus is only for streaming and downloaded files.

Yes, so far they don't pay much attention to it. Occasionally they walk behind my audio rack, but that's about it. Lucy and Ethel pretty much ignored it, too.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 27, 2024, 08:45:22 AM
@Spotted Horses I once had a Marantz player.  It sounded good but it was a pain in the butt, just like you said.  I loved how fast and intuitive the old players were.  I had fond memories of loading up my cd cartridge and having the player just immediately start playing without fuss.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 27, 2024, 09:05:47 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 27, 2024, 08:45:22 AM@Spotted Horses I once had a Marantz player.  It sounded good but it was a pain in the butt, just like you said.  I loved how fast and intuitive the old players were.  I had fond memories of loading up my cd cartridge and having the player just immediately start playing without fuss.

Yes, the Marantz sounded great. Before that I had a 5 CD carousel from NAD which also sounded great, until the transport failed. I vaguely remember the old Technics as having a smooth sound, almost like the idealized LP. Maybe pure nostalgia. I think this is it:

(https://www.audioscope.net/images/technics_sl_p1-2.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 27, 2024, 09:13:21 AM
I had an Optimus which was a blatant rebrand of a Pioneer:
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.shopify.com%2Fs%2Ffiles%2F1%2F1683%2F2705%2Fproducts%2FOptimus-CD-7300-6-Disc-Magazine-Multiple-Compact-Disc-CD-Player-Synchro-System-with-3-Cartridges-Electronics-8_2048x2048.jpg%3Fv%3D1649451070&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=fb45742367cad12bf6eefb7b7e0fee7eb02f581f939d767dda8cba89a39fd984&ipo=images)

And before that I had a Sony cdp:
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimages-na.ssl-images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F713KJ8QPLcL._SL1500_.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=40c73578be0ac4aabfd39aafbb40c314ccc7e97492083a134a2e13fb47961984&ipo=images)

I think it was that or a similar model, a hand-me-down from my Mother when she was gifted a cd carousel player.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 27, 2024, 09:16:02 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 27, 2024, 08:40:01 AMFound it. Sounds infuriating. I don't remember my turntables with any fondness, but I miss my first CD player. A Technics from about 1988. Such a simple interface, with continuous play mode single play mode (select a track and it plays it then stops) program mode which required a few simple clicks. And if you programed continuous tracks (4, 5, 6, 7, etc) it was smart enough to pay through them continuously. My last player, a Marantz CD/SACD player, drove me to computer playback. If you programmed continuous tracks (say, to play Ein Heldenleben) it would stop at the end of each track and seek the next track, causing it to hiccup and interrupt the music. Idiotic! I paid $5 to dump it a the country electronics recycling center, even though it was in mint condition.

All these weird streaming schemes with dedicated gadgets that I read about probably would be enough to drive me back to a turntable. I have my own minimalist setup on my Mac, Swinsian media player or Apple Music on my Mac -> Schiit DAC -> Schiit headphone amp -> headphones. On on the MacBook, the DAC is replaced by bluetooth link to headphones (which has it's own irritations, when the headphones decide to pair with the wrong device, such as my phone or another nearby computer).

My first CD player was budget Technics, bought in 1990, maybe the same or similar to yours. I remember very well my huge disappointment when I brought it home together with my first CDs, Beethoven 9th with Karajan, last recording, archival Rubinstein with Mozart Piano Concertos, Sting Nothing Like the Sun (gift from a friend). The digital sound was awful to my ears after couple decades of LPs. Of course I knew there was no turning back, I wouldn't go back to vinyls, but it was already clear that I was in for a compromise at best.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 27, 2024, 09:21:32 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 27, 2024, 09:13:21 AMAnd before that I had a Sony cdp:
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimages-na.ssl-images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F713KJ8QPLcL._SL1500_.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=40c73578be0ac4aabfd39aafbb40c314ccc7e97492083a134a2e13fb47961984&ipo=images)

I think it was that or a similar model, a hand-me-down from my Mother when she was gifted a cd carousel player.

That Sony looks very familiar, I think I had it or something very similar between the Technics and the NAD. I also have a Philips dual tray CD recorder, which could duplicate tracks from CDs record form analog input. I also had a DAT recorder and I was somehow able to transfer from DAT to CD digitally, probably a S/PDIF link.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 27, 2024, 09:28:03 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on February 27, 2024, 09:16:02 AMMy first CD player was budget Technics, bought in 1990, maybe the same or similar to yours. I remember very well my huge disappointment when I brought it home together with my first CDs, Beethoven 9th with Karajan, last recording, archival Rubinstein with Mozart Piano Concertos, Sting Nothing Like the Sun (gift from a friend). The digital sound was awful to my ears after couple decades of LPs. Of course I knew there was no turning back, I wouldn't go back to vinyls, but it was already clear that I was in for a compromise at best.

That reminds me of when I moved.  I couldn't move my tv, I didn't have the room.  And then later when I bought a new tv I had no choice but to buy an lcd.  I was used to those crt blacks, and those lcds (at the time) were smaller, more expensive and looked washed out!  I knew it would be a long time before I saw those kind of blacks again (though it eventually happened).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 27, 2024, 09:42:52 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on February 27, 2024, 09:16:02 AMMy first CD player was budget Technics, bought in 1990, maybe the same or similar to yours. I remember very well my huge disappointment when I brought it home together with my first CDs, Beethoven 9th with Karajan, last recording, archival Rubinstein with Mozart Piano Concertos, Sting Nothing Like the Sun (gift from a friend). The digital sound was awful to my ears after couple decades of LPs. Of course I knew there was no turning back, I wouldn't go back to vinyls, but it was already clear that I was in for a compromise at best.

I had the Karajan Beethoven from the 80's and similarly found it awful, and a big let down from the 70's cycle.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 27, 2024, 10:08:47 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on February 27, 2024, 08:41:32 AMI don't! I use the 5101 for CD/SACD playback. The Venus is only for streaming and downloaded files.

Yes, so far they don't pay much attention to it. Occasionally they walk behind my audio rack, but that's about it. Lucy and Ethel pretty much ignored it, too.

Got it!  And glad to hear that your kitties aren't interested in your audio equipment.  :)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 27, 2024, 11:11:45 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on February 27, 2024, 07:22:44 AMI prefer "musical/realistic." To me, that ASR site is one massive April Fool's joke...

I've learned a lot from ASR.  Also from Erin at erinsaudiocorner.com
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 28, 2024, 10:14:01 PM
I like ASR. I've learned what makes a phono amp good there. Hint: It's not the price or the number of settings for MC cartridges.
Erin is even better. Excellent review of the KEF LS60 for instance.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 28, 2024, 10:45:11 PM
Quote from: Valentino on February 28, 2024, 10:14:01 PMI like ASR. I've learned what makes a phono amp good there. Hint: It's not the price or the number of settings for MC cartridges.
Erin is even better. Excellent review of the KEF LS60 for instance.

Your ears.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 29, 2024, 07:27:10 AM
I'm an electronics engineer. There are certain parameters I want to be to specification before I put any equipment into  the playback chain. Pure subjectivity is not my thing.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 29, 2024, 08:43:39 AM
And that would be a good point to stop... remember there is a debate thread.  So if people are unhappy with Valentino expressing their personal outlook, please quote it to take it to the other thread (and not here).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 29, 2024, 10:23:37 AM
Quote from: Valentino on February 28, 2024, 10:14:01 PMI like ASR. I've learned what makes a phono amp good there. Hint: It's not the price or the number of settings for MC cartridges.

One thing I never thought of before is how the phono pre-amp's headroom effects how prominent ticks and pops will sound, so that measurement is really useful.

QuoteErin is even better. Excellent review of the KEF LS60 for instance.

Erin really does a good job of relating what he hears and what he measures.  For example, how dispersion relates to soundstage width.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 29, 2024, 11:29:17 AM
Quote from: Daverz on February 29, 2024, 10:23:37 AMOne thing I never thought of before is how the phono pre-amp's headroom effects how prominent ticks and pops will sound, so that measurement is really useful.

Correct. With a poor pre-amp pops will sound like pathetic firecrackers. A good pre-amp will make it sound like a concussion grenade has been detonated in the hall.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 29, 2024, 12:55:20 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 29, 2024, 11:29:17 AMCorrect. With a poor pre-amp pops will sound like pathetic firecrackers. A good pre-amp will make it sound like a concussion grenade has been detonated in the hall.

Reminds me of the Telarc 1812 Overture LP where you could see the huge groove modulatons for the cannon shots and know that your cartridge was never going to make it through that thing.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 29, 2024, 12:57:47 PM
Quote from: Daverz on February 29, 2024, 12:55:20 PMReminds me of the Telarc 1812 Overture LP where you could see the huge groove modulatons for the cannon shots and know that your cartridge was never going to make it through that thing.

My brother had that LP. Never played through. Followed in the footsteps of the Mercury/Dorati recording using a bronze cannon (and commentary by Deems Taylor, as I recall).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on March 01, 2024, 11:41:36 AM
Quote from: Bachtoven on February 27, 2024, 07:22:44 AMI prefer "musical/realistic." To me, that ASR site is one massive April Fool's joke...

The website was very different when it formed to about 2017. The primary focus was on acoustics, room treatment, DSP, and speaker measurement/placement. There were many industry experts that have since left, I only recognize two of them these days and one doesn't post much. Then the electronics measurements were added and it turned into trashing anything that didn't have a noise floor of -xxx db (though I still find them helpful, if I were to get a new set of passive speakers Benchmark amps would now be at the top of my list along with Spectral, Spectral based purely off what I have heard from them in twenty years).

Speaking for myself I find a balance of both measurements and listening to be invaluable, I spent around $12k in room treatments a few years ago and it would have been like playing pin the tail on the donkey blindfolded if I wasn't regularly going to REW to verify what I was hearing. The treatments made just as big an impact as changing speakers. My dad is not an audiophile and only listens to Indian pop music and he was able to hear what getting rid of a prominent room mode sounded like.

Quote from: Daverz on February 29, 2024, 10:23:37 AMErin really does a good job of relating what he hears and what he measures.  For example, how dispersion relates to soundstage width.

Erin is significantly better at relaying information. Really looking forward to his Blade 2 Meta review though KEF pretty much publish nearly everything relevant to it already though their PDF images are small). I am curious about his subjective thoughts as he is able to distinguish 1 db changes ala someone that was able to get fairly high in the Harman training tool.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Atriod on March 01, 2024, 02:07:58 PM
If I were to buy a disc spinner right now it would be the Spectral SDR-4000SL, though I have only heard it in unfamiliar systems Spectral systems more often than not sounded very good to me. I believe the founder what he (and Keith Johnson) have to say about CD.

I can't bring myself to buy it since it's 15 years old and the rumor mill has been going around (though this has been for some time) that they will have a new CD player.

(https://i.imgur.com/o3RAnTE.jpeg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on March 02, 2024, 12:53:07 PM
I prefer disc rippers...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on March 19, 2024, 02:26:22 AM
I've had no access to my Hi-Fi system for the past few days as we have had wooden flooring put down and the old carpets pulled up downstairs. Today I have access once again to my stereo system  :)
What interested me is the difference in the sound quality as, without the carpets, there is a more immediate and cavernous sound - which I prefer. I was not expecting it to make such a difference.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on March 19, 2024, 03:40:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 19, 2024, 02:26:22 AMI've had no access to my Hi-Fi system for the past few days as we have had wooden flooring put down and the old carpets pulled up downstairs. Today I have access once again to my stereo system  :)
What interested me is the difference in the sound quality as, without the carpets, there is a more immediate and cavernous sound - which I prefer. I was not expecting it to make such a difference.

Yes, if you change the room in such a way, the acoustics will change immediately. That's why I do not have wooden flooring in my listening room! Though if the sound turns cavernous you should use a different way of getting a balanced acoustical room, for that would be for me unacceptable.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 19, 2024, 06:09:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 19, 2024, 02:26:22 AMI've had no access to my Hi-Fi system for the past few days as we have had wooden flooring put down and the old carpets pulled up downstairs. Today I have access once again to my stereo system  :)
What interested me is the difference in the sound quality as, without the carpets, there is a more immediate and cavernous sound - which I prefer. I was not expecting it to make such a difference.

I suffered that harsh echoey sound in my house before I got area rugs.  You're just hearing hard reflections off the floor.  It causes a loss in imaging and soundstage and makes the sound harsh because those early reflected waves are interfering with the original signal.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on March 19, 2024, 06:37:54 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 19, 2024, 06:09:37 AMI suffered that harsh echoey sound in my house before I got area rugs.  You're just hearing hard reflections off the floor.  It causes a loss in imaging and soundstage and makes the sound harsh because those early reflected waves are interfering with the original signal.

On the other hand, carpets can muffle sound. Good sound reproduction system would include acoustic room treatment, vibration control, et al. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on March 19, 2024, 06:49:20 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on March 19, 2024, 06:37:54 AMOn the other hand, carpets can muffle sound. Good sound reproduction system would include acoustic room treatment, vibration control, et al. 

Can yes, but if then are thin enough it will work in a positive way. That's how I did it in my listening room.  The sound is not muffled, but beautifully balanced.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on March 19, 2024, 07:08:03 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 19, 2024, 06:09:37 AMI suffered that harsh echoey sound in my house before I got area rugs.  You're just hearing hard reflections off the floor.  It causes a loss in imaging and soundstage and makes the sound harsh because those early reflected waves are interfering with the original signal.
Thanks - we are planning to get some large rugs for both rooms.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on March 19, 2024, 07:09:39 AM
I'm enjoying the sound at the moment - thanks for the interesting comments.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 19, 2024, 07:39:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 19, 2024, 07:09:39 AMI'm enjoying the sound at the moment - thanks for the interesting comments.
Whatever makes you (and your wife) happy is what is right.   :)

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on March 19, 2024, 08:00:49 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 19, 2024, 07:39:28 AMWhatever makes you (and your wife) happy is what is right.  :)

PD

That could prove a very difficult thing to achieve ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ::)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 19, 2024, 08:07:51 AM
Quote from: Harry on March 19, 2024, 08:00:49 AMThat could prove a very difficult thing to achieve ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ::)
"Happy wife, happy life".  ;D

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 19, 2024, 08:49:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 19, 2024, 07:08:03 AMThanks - we are planning to get some large rugs for both rooms.

If you have any pets they'll thank you too!  My dog absolutely hates hardwood floors.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 19, 2024, 08:50:21 AM
Quote from: Harry on March 19, 2024, 08:00:49 AMThat could prove a very difficult thing to achieve ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ::)

I wonder if she also appreciates the most depressing neoromantic symphonies! :laugh:
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 19, 2024, 08:53:31 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on March 19, 2024, 06:37:54 AMOn the other hand, carpets can muffle sound. Good sound reproduction system would include acoustic room treatment, vibration control, et al. 

You make it sound equal, but it is not at all.  It is far superior to have carpets, plants etc. instead of long planes of hard floor, walls, ceilings.  That is part of room treatment.  It doesn't have to be about throwing huge amounts of money at acoustic panels.  You can just use common sense.  Carpet the floors, curtains for the windows.  Maybe some plants.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 19, 2024, 08:54:50 AM
Quote from: Harry on March 19, 2024, 06:49:20 AMCan yes, but if then are thin enough it will work in a positive way. That's how I did it in my listening room.  The sound is not muffled, but beautifully balanced.

The kind of thick rugs he is talking about are difficult to vacuum anyway.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 19, 2024, 08:57:48 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 19, 2024, 08:49:25 AMIf you have any pets they'll thank you too!  My dog absolutely hates hardwood floors.
Yes, I suspect his cat (Who I hope is still doing well).  And, yes, claws on hard wood floors can lead to a lot of slipping and sliding!

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: AnotherSpin on March 19, 2024, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 19, 2024, 08:53:31 AMYou make it sound equal, but it is not at all.  It is far superior to have carpets, plants etc. instead of long planes of hard floor, walls, ceilings.  That is part of room treatment.  It doesn't have to be about throwing huge amounts of money at acoustic panels.  You can just use common sense.  Carpet the floors, curtains for the windows.  Maybe some plants.

I didn't make anything equal, I just said they can. Likewise, speaker placement can play a huge role in the specifics of the sound. Even a slight movement left-right or back and forth can be well perceptible.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on March 19, 2024, 12:12:17 PM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on March 19, 2024, 11:51:53 AMI didn't make anything equal, I just said they can. Likewise, speaker placement can play a huge role in the specifics of the sound. Even a slight movement left-right or back and forth can be well perceptible.

I've noticed that too.  With both the speakers and my listening position.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 19, 2024, 01:54:59 PM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on March 19, 2024, 11:51:53 AMI didn't make anything equal, I just said they can. Likewise, speaker placement can play a huge role in the specifics of the sound. Even a slight movement left-right or back and forth can be well perceptible.

A Stabila laser distance measurer is one of the best investements I ever made in "audio" equipment.

My listening room is difficult for setup because of the lack of symmetry or even a sufficient length of wall behind the speakers to measure against.  (Pic below is taken from the loft above the semi-open kitchen).  To deal with the lack of symmetry, I have the bookshelf speakers on stands well out into the room away from any side walls and sit fairly close (within 2.5 meters).  That results in some pretty ragged response in the low bass, so to deal with that I cross over the mains to a subwoofer at 120 Hz with a very steep crossover filter. I don't hear the subwoofer as a separate source of sound with this setup; the bass is smoothly integrated with the mains. 

I can actually do without the subwoofer much of the time, though.  It does add solidity on the very bottom end and takes the stress off the main speakers in big climaxes those rare times I can crank up the volume.

 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on March 20, 2024, 01:07:17 AM
Oh, @Daverz. That might be one of the most difficult rooms I've seen. Every natural place for a speaker is a traffic area.
Your solution is good though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on March 20, 2024, 03:47:40 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 19, 2024, 08:49:25 AMIf you have any pets they'll thank you too!  My dog absolutely hates hardwood floors.
Our cat is more or less permanently ensconced on a small white fluffy rug in front of the wood burner.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 20, 2024, 07:23:22 AM
Quote from: Daverz on March 19, 2024, 01:54:59 PMA Stabila laser distance measurer is one of the best investements I ever made in "audio" equipment.

My listening room is difficult for setup because of the lack of symmetry or even a sufficient length of wall behind the speakers to measure against.  (Pic below is taken from the loft above the semi-open kitchen).  To deal with the lack of symmetry, I have the bookshelf speakers on stands well out into the room away from any side walls and sit fairly close (within 2.5 meters).  That results in some pretty ragged response in the low bass, so to deal with that I cross over the mains to a subwoofer at 120 Hz with a very steep crossover filter. I don't hear the subwoofer as a separate source of sound with this setup; the bass is smoothly integrated with the mains. 

I can actually do without the subwoofer much of the time, though.  It does add solidity on the very bottom end and takes the stress off the main speakers in big climaxes those rare times I can crank up the volume.

 
Aiee!  Yep, that's a hard one!  Do you ever use the fireplace?

PD
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 20, 2024, 02:06:14 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 20, 2024, 07:23:22 AMAiee!  Yep, that's a hard one!  Do you ever use the fireplace?

PD

No, a silly thing to have in Southern California. I have a pair of big monoblock tube amps for chilly days.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 23, 2024, 07:23:05 AM
Quote from: Daverz on March 20, 2024, 02:06:14 PMNo, a silly thing to have in Southern California. I have a pair of big monoblock tube amps for chilly days.


Tubes are great in the wintertime!  Not so much so on a hot summer's day.

PD