GMG Classical Music Forum

I'm finding myself drawn more and more to Dufay. Lately I just  can't stop playing Cantica Symphonica's record of chansons, and The Clemencic Consort's  record of the Missa Ecce Ancilla Domini. The former modest and I think, very heart felt and moving. The latter almost savage, raw.

Anyway I'm up for exploring Dufay some more, so please, point me in the direction of any special recordings you know.

Dufay is wonderful, here are a few of my favorites...


[asin]B004IXP5P0[/asin] [asin]B000B0WOGW[/asin]

Ample portions of the secular Dufay can be found in David Munrow's classic anthology The Art of Courtly Love.

I second the above-posted CD of isorhythmic motets. Awe-inspiring stuff.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 31, 2013, 09:57:18 AM
Dufay is wonderful, here are a few of my favorites...

[asin]B000B0WOGW[/asin]

I never knew music could sound like this.

I'll third Huelgas-Ensemble motets, and add:

[asin]B00019EYQG[/asin]

Quote from: Velimir on August 31, 2013, 10:30:17 AM
Ample portions of the secular Dufay can be found in David Munrow's classic anthology The Art of Courtly Love.

I second the above-posted CD of isorhythmic motets. Awe-inspiring stuff.

Which one did you mean -- the Huelgas Ensemble or the Cantica Synphonia? Both contain isorhythmic motets.

I haven't listened to the Huelgas yet -- it's on spotify so I can do so no problem.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 01, 2013, 12:26:11 PM
Which one did you mean -- the Huelgas Ensemble or the Cantica Synphonia?

Huelgas Ensemble

Quote from: Velimir on August 31, 2013, 10:30:17 AM
Ample portions of the secular Dufay can be found in David Munrow's classic anthology The Art of Courtly Love.

I second the above-posted CD of isorhythmic motets. Awe-inspiring stuff.

Agree w/ the David Munrow anthology above - 2nd disc has much Dufay and a nice general introduction to the music of the times.

And just added Greg's recommendation (O gemma lux) to my Amazon cart - :)

Own the Alpha recording mentioned by Drasko - others in my collection are shown below:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JPfQjH1zL._SY300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81yryFoa-vL._SL1002_.jpg)  (http://image.bayimg.com/laemkaade.jpg)

Does anyone know if this list is complete?

1420, Vasilissa ergo gaude, motet à quatre voix. Dans le manuscrit de Berlin, (sur Cleofe Malatesta).
1423, Resvellies vous, ballade. Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford (sur Carlo Malatesta)
1425, Je me complains, ballade. Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
1426 (avant 1426), Missa sine nomine, à trois voix. Ordinarium. Dans le manuscrit Q 15, Bologna = Manuscrit de Berlin
1426 (vers 1426-1428), Missa Sancti Jacobi, à trois ou quatre voix. Ordinarium et Proprium. Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
1431, Ecclesiae militanti
1431, Balsamus et munda, motet à quatre voix. Manuscrit de Berlin, composé pour la chapelle papale
1433, Supremum est mortalibus bonum, motet à trois voix avec faux-bourdon. Manuscrit de Berlin (sur le pape Eugêne IV et l'empereur Sigismond)
1433, C'est bien raison, ballade. Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford (sur Nicolas III de Ferrare)
1435 (vers 1435) Salve flos Tuscae gentis ; Vos nunc, motet à quatre voix. Manuscrit 471, Modena (avec la citation : Guillermus cecini, natus en ipse Fay)
1435 (vers 1435), Mirandas parit haec urbs Florentina puellas, à trois voix. Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena (pour Florence)
1436, Nuper rosarum flores, motet à quatre voix. Manuscrit 471, Modena (pour la bénédiction de la cathédrale de Florence)
1438, Magnanimae gentis ; Nexus amicitiae, motet à quatre voix. Manuscrit 471, Modena (sur un pacte entre Bern et Freiburg)
1440 (vers 1440), Missa Caput, messe à quatre voix pour ténor. Dans le manuscrit de Coventry
1450 (vers 1450), Missa Se la face ay pale (à 4 voix). Messe pour ténor. Dans le manuscrit 88 de Trente
1454, 'O tres piteux (Lamentatio Sanctae Matris Ecclesiae Constantinopolitanae), motet à quatre voix). Manuscrit Riccardiana 2794, Firenze (composé pour un banquet de Philippe le Bon à Lille)
1463, Missa Ecce ancilla domini (à quatre voix), messe pour ténor. Dans le manuscrit 5557 de Bruxelles (copié à Cambrai en 1463))
1464 (ou plus tard), Missa Ave Regina Caelorum (à quatre voix), messe pour Ténor. Dans le manuscrit 5557 de Bruxelles
1464, Ave regina caelorum
sd, Inclyta stella maris (à 4 voix). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd, Juvenis qui puellam ( à 3 voix). Dans le manuscrit 3224 München 3224
sd, Missa La mort de Saint Gothard (à 4). Messe pour ténor. Dans le manuscrit lat. 456 de Modena (sans nom d'auteur)
sd, Missa L'homme armé (à 4 voix) ; Messe pour ténor. Dans le manuscrit Capp. Sist. 14, Roma
sd, Missa Sancti Antonii Viennensis ( à 3 voix). Ordinarium. Dans le manuscrit 90 de Trente
sd, O beate Sebastiane (à 3 voix).Dans le manuscrit de Berlin (sur saint Sébastien, lors d'une épidémie de peste)
sd, O flos florum virginum ( à 3 voix). Dans le manuscrit 3232a de München (certainement une contrefaçon)
sd, O proles Hispaniae ; O sidus Hispaniae (à 4 voix) Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena (sur saint Antoine de Padoue)
sd, Qui latuit in virgine (à 3 voix). Dans le manuscrit 3232a de München (authenticité incertaine)
sd, Vergine bella ( à 3 voix). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd. Fulgens jubar ; Puerpera pura (motet à 4). Manuscrit 471, Modena (Pour le fête de la purification, acec accrostiche de Petrus de Castello)
sd., Ave virgo qua de caelis ( à 3 voix).Dans le manuscrit 92 de Trente
sd., O gloriose tiro ; Divine pastus (motet à 4 voix) in Mod B (sur saint Théodore)
sd., O sancte Sebastiane ; O martyr Sebastiane ; O quam mira (motet à 4 voix). Dans le manuscrit de Dans le manuscrit de Berlin (sur saint Sebastien, lors dune épidémie de peste)
sd., Moribus et genere ; Virgo, virga virens (motet à 4 voix). Manuscrit 471, Modena (sur saint Jean, avec une mention de Dijon)
sd., 1 voix de contre-ténor dans un Gloria anonyme à 3 voix. Dans les manuscrits 6 et 11, Bibliothèque municipale de Cambrai
sd., 11 Kyrie à 3 voix dont 7 dans le manuscrit Q 15, Bologna = Berlin ; 4 dans les manuscrits 87 et 92 Trente
sd., 14 Gloria à trois et quatre voix dont 8 dans le manuscrit de Berlin  ; 5 dans le manuscrit 92 de Trente ; 1 dans le manuscrit 3232a, München
sd., 4 Agnus Dei à 3 voix dont 2 dans le manuscrit de Berlin ; 2 dans le manuscrit 92 de Trente
sd., 4 Credo à trois et quatre voix. Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., 4 Sanctus à 3 voix dont 3 dans le manuscrit de Berlin ; 1 dans le manuscrit 92 de Trente
sd., Ad caenam agni providi (hymne). Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Adieu ces bons vins (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford = Oxf (datiert 1426)
sd., Alleluia Veni sancte spiritus, All. Dans le manuscrit 90 de Trente. sd.,
sd., Alma Redemptoris Mater ( à 3 voix). Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Alma Redemptoris Mater ( à 3 voix). Dans le manuscrit Q 15, Bologna = manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Anima mea liquefacta est ( à 3 voix). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Audi benigne conditor (hymne). Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Aurea luce (hymne). Dans le manuscrit Q 15, Bologna = Berlin
sd., Ave regina caelorum ( à 3 voix). Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Ave Maris Stella (hymne). Dans le manuscrit 92 de Trente
sd., Ave maris stella (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Ave regina caelorum ( à 3 voix). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Benedicamus domino (I). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Benedicamus domino (II). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Christe redemptor omnium (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Conditor alme siderum (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Cum tua doctrina. Motet (5 voix, texte italien). Manuscrit Q 15, Bologna, composé pour la bénédicion de la cathédrale de Patras.
sd., Departes vous, male bouche (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 871 N, Monte Cassino
sd., Deus tuorum militum (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Epiphaniam domino (hymne). dans le manuscrit 87 de Trente
sd., Exultet caelum laudibus (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Festum nunc celebre (hymne). dans le manuscrit 87 de Trente
sd., Flos florum ( à 3 voix). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Gaude virgo, mater Christi (à 4 voix). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Hic vir despiciens (antienne). Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Hic jocundus sumit mundus ( à 3 voix). Dans le manuscrit 3232a de München (certainement une contrefaçon)
sd., Hostis Herodes impie (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Iste confessor (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Isti sunt duae olivae (antienne). Dans le manuscrit 87 de Trente
sd., Je n'ai doubté (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 87 de Trente
sd., Jesu corona virginum (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Magnificat 1. toni. Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Magnificat 5. toni. Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Magnificat 6. toni. Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Magnificat 8. toni. Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Magnificat. Dans le manuscrit 811 N du Monte Cassino
sd., Miserere tui labentis Dufay (motet 4 voix). Manuscrit
sd., O gemma lux ; Sacer pastor Barensium (motet à 4 voix). Dans le Manuscrit de Berlin (sur saint Nicolas de Bari)
sd., Phrases de cantliènes. Dans le manuscrit 3232a, München 3232a (5e partie) (relations avec Alma Redemptoris Mater du manuscrit Q 15, Bologna)
sd., Rite majorem Jacobum ; Artibus summis (motet à 4 et 3 voix avec ténor soliste). Dans le Manuscrit de Berlin (sur saint Jacob avec accrostiche Robertus Auclou Curatus Sancti Jacobi)
sd., Roma, San Pietro B 80 (copié à Cambrai en 1464)
sd., Sanctorum arbitrio ; Bella canunt genies (motet à 5 voix) Manuscrit 87 de Trente (composé pour le pape Eugêne IV)
sd., A solis ortus cardine (hymne). Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Adieu m'amour (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 714 de Porto
sd., Adieu quitte le demeurant (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 90 de Trente.
sd., Belle plaissant et gracieuse (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Belle que vous (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 87 de Trente
sd., Belle vueillies vostre mercy donner (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Belle vueillies moy retenir (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Belle vuellies moy vengier (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit XIX 176, Firenze
sd., Bien veignes vous (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Bien doy servir (ballade). dans le manuscrit 87 de Trente
sd., Bon jour, bon mois (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Ce moys de may (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Ce jour de l'an (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Ce jour le doibt (ballade). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Craindre vous vueil (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., De ma haulte et bonne aventure (virelai). Dans le manuscrit Ricc. 2794, Firenze
sd., Dieu gard la bone (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit XIX 176, Firenze
sd., Dona i ardentirai (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Donna gentile (rondeau). Dans le Manuscrit de la Yale University Library
sd., Donnez l'assault (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 87 de Trente
sd., Du tout m'estoit (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit fr. 15123 de Paris
sd., Entre les plus plaines d'anoy (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 714 de Porto
sd., Entre vous gentils amoureux (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Estrines moy (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Franc cuer gentil (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 92 de Trente
sd., He compaignons (rondeau à 4 voix). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Helas et quant vous veray (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit n.a. fr. 6771 de Paris
sd., Helas mon duel (virelai). Dans le manuscrit 714 de Porto
sd., Helas, ma dame (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Invidia nimica (ballade à 4 voix). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., J'atendray tant (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., J'ay grant (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 222 de Strasbourg (copie d'E. de Coussemaker)
sd., J'ay mis mon cuer (ballade). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Je donne a tous (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Je languis en piteux martire (ballade). Dans le manuscrit 92 de Trente
sd., Je ne puis plus (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Je ne suy plus (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Je ne vis oncques (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 871 N, Monte Cassino
sd., Je prens congié (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit n.a. fr. 6771 de Paris
sd., Je requier a tous amoureux (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Je triomphe de crudel duel (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 714 de Porto
sd., Je veul chanter (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Je vous pri (à 4 voix) Dans le manuscrit XIX 178, Firenze
sd., Jesu nostra redemptio (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., La belle se siet (ballade). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., La dolce vista (ballade). Dans le manuscrit Urb. lat. 1411, Roma
sd., Laetabundus (séquence). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., L'alta belleza (ballade). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Las, que feray (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Lauda Sion salvatorem (séquence). Dans le manuscrit 92 de Trente
sd., Ma belle dame souverainne (rondeau à 4 voix) Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Ma belle dame, je vous pri (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Magi videntes stellam (antienne). Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Malheureux cueur (virelai). Dans le Chansonnier Laborde, Washington
sd., Mille bon jours (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 222 de Strasbourg (copie de E. de Coussemaker)
sd., Mon bien, m'amour (rondeau). dans le manuscrit 87 de Trente
sd., Mon chier amy (ballade). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Mon cuer me fait (rondeau à 4 voix). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Mon seul plaisir (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit XIX 176, Firenze
sd., Navré je suy (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Ne je ne dors (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit XIX 176, Firenze
sd., O gemma martyrum (antienne). Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., O lux beata trinitas (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Or pleust a dieu (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Pange lingua (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Pange lingua (hymne). Dans le manuscrit 92 de Trente (attribution incertaine)
sd., Par droit je puis bien (rondeau à 4 voix). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Par le regart (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 714 de Porto
sd., Passato e il tempo omai (ballade). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Petrus apostolus (antienne). Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Portugaler (ballade). Dans le manuscrit 222 de Strasbourg (copie de E. de Coussemaker)
sd., Pour ce que veoir (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Pour l'amour (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Pouray je avoir (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Proles de caelo prodiit (hymne). Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Propter nimiam caritatem (antienne). Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Puisque celle (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 87 de Trente
sd., Quel fronte, signorille (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford (composé à Rome)
sd., Qu'est devenue leaulté (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 714 de Porto
sd., Resistera (à 4 voix). Dans le manuscrit XIX 176, Firenze
sd., Resvelons nous (ténor : Alons ent bien tos au may) (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Salva nos, domine (antienne). Dans le manuscrit 90 de Trente.
sd., Salve sancte pater (antienne). Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Sanctorum meritis (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Sapiente filio (antienne). Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Se la face ay pale (ballade). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., Se ma damme (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit Can. misc. 213, Oxford
sd., S'il est plaisir (rondeau à 4). Dans le manuscrit 3232a de München
sd., Tibi Christe splendor patris (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Trop lonc temps ai esté (rondeau). in Rom, Urb. lat. 1411
sd., Urbs beata Jerusalem (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Ut queant laxis (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Va t'en, mon cuer (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 714 de Porto
sd., Veni Creator Spiritus (hymne). Dans le manuscrit de Berlin
sd., Veni Sancte Spiritus (séquence). Dans le manuscrit 92 de Trente
sd., Vexilla Regis prodeunt (hymne). Dans le manuscrit lat. 471, Modena
sd., Victimae paschali laudes (séquence). Dans le manuscrit 92 de Trente.
sd., Vo regart et doulche maniere (rondeau). Dans le manuscrit 3232a de München 3232a
sd., Vostre bruit (rondeau). Dans le Chansonnier de Laborde, Washington
sd.,Vostre bruit ( ruisseau) Dans la chansonnete a Londre

Quote from: Mandryka on September 02, 2013, 03:32:24 AM
Does anyone know if this list is complete?

Well, that is quite a list - complete?  Don't know but likely pretty close -  ;D

Recording below just arrived and have done one listening so far and enjoyed (although not sure that I'll get through the 10+ page article by the Italian mathematician?) - seems to be a favorite in this thread, but there have been some 'mixed' comments when searching the web - attached is a short but positive Fanfare review; an AllMusic Review (http://www.allmusic.com/album/guillaume-dufay-quadrivium-mw0001847738) w/ an overall 3+* (out of 5) rating; and a review on Amazon entitled Awkward, Labored, Lumpy by Giordano Bruno, who I usually agree w/ in this genre.

SO, just for those who already own this recording (or others thinking of a purchase) - for myself, I'll need another few listenings (and maybe an attempt @ the extensive notes in the booklet) - but I'd certainly go no lower than 4* on Amazon if writing a review there.  Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-wSbmFSL/0/O/Dufay_CanticaSymphonia.jpg)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 01, 2013, 02:13:31 PM
Agree w/ the David Munrow anthology above - 2nd disc has much Dufay and a nice general introduction to the music of the times.

I've been listening to Courtly Love a lot this week, and it does help to hear these works in their historical context. The overall presentation is intelligent, with a nice mix of songs, dances, and some just plain goofy stuff in the "14th Century Avant-Garde" album.

Perhaps to my surprise I find the songs by Binchois to be just as good as Dufay's. In fact Binchois' mesmerizing, understated "Amoureux suy" may be the highlight of the whole set for me.

Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 10, 2013, 09:17:08 AM
Well, that is quite a list - complete?  Don't know but likely pretty close -  ;D

Recording below just arrived and have done one listening so far and enjoyed (although not sure that I'll get through the 10+ page article by the Italian mathematician?) - seems to be a favorite in this thread, but there have been some 'mixed' comments when searching the web - attached is a short but positive Fanfare review; an AllMusic Review (http://www.allmusic.com/album/guillaume-dufay-quadrivium-mw0001847738) w/ an overall 3+* (out of 5) rating; and a review on Amazon entitled Awkward, Labored, Lumpy by Giordano Bruno, who I usually agree w/ in this genre.

SO, just for those who already own this recording (or others thinking of a purchase) - for myself, I'll need another few listenings (and maybe an attempt @ the extensive notes in the booklet) - but I'd certainly go no lower than 4* on Amazon if writing a review there.  Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-wSbmFSL/0/O/Dufay_CanticaSymphonia.jpg)

That review raises such interesting questions. He writes

Quote from: Giordano Bruno at http://www.amazon.com/review/R5KUEH9ZQFNH

The non-blend of voices and instruments is, as I said above, awkward, labored, and lumpy, especially on the motets using sackbuts (aka trombones). . .The necessary 'interpenetration' of the three or four lines of polyphony just can't be heard as such. Dufay should be graceful, effortless, and smoothly blended in ensemble. What I hear here is the opposite.

You see, most/all renaissance and early baroque  performances I've heard have been too smooth. Too slick. Too blended. Too beautiful. Too graceful.  I don't like it,  I like it when the lines are sometimes competing with each other, are sometimes in a state of tension with each other. I think that makes for a more interesting listening experience.

If Giordano Bruno's right about authentic Du Fay performance (where are the arguments?), then it means that authentic Du Fay performance isn't my thing.

Having said that, I have some reservations about that Cantica Symphonia record, but that's another story.

Quote from: Mandryka on September 10, 2013, 11:20:45 AM

You see, most/all renaissance and early baroque  performances I've heard have been too smooth. Too slick. Too blended. Too beautiful. Too graceful.  I don't like it,  I like it when the lines are sometimes competing with each other, are sometimes in a state of tension with each other. I think that makes for a more interesting listening experience.

I agree. The smooth approach isn't always wrong, but I dislike how dominant it's become. This is why I prefer older performances by the likes of David Munrow's group and Pro Cantione Antiqua. There's more color, tension and feeling in them. I also like how they add instrumental accompaniment sometimes, none of this hyper-correct "voices only" dogma for them.

Speaking of Pro Cantione Antiqua, they did an album of Dufay and Dunstable motets that's worth looking for.

Quote from: Velimir on September 10, 2013, 11:31:43 AM
I agree. The smooth approach isn't always wrong, but I dislike how dominant it's become. This is why I prefer older performances by the likes of David Munrow's group and Pro Cantione Antiqua. There's more color, tension and feeling in them. I also like how they add instrumental accompaniment sometimes, none of this hyper-correct "voices only" dogma for them.

Speaking of Pro Cantione Antiqua, they did an album of Dufay and Dunstable motets that's worth looking for.

Would you mind linking or posting some of these discs from Munrow and Pro Cantione? I'm very interested. Thanks!  :)

Quote from: Mandryka on September 02, 2013, 03:32:24 AM
Does anyone know if this list is complete?

I can't see on it those miraculous late chansons Le serviteur hault guerdonné or Les douleurs dont me sens tel somme, which are probably only available on the old Medieval Ensemble of London's Complete Secular Music set,

[asin]B000004CYU[/asin]

now only available as a download.  A great set, although it has attracted a bit of criticism based on more recent scholarship.

DF

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 10, 2013, 12:15:51 PM
Would you mind linking or posting some of these discs from Munrow and Pro Cantione? I'm very interested. Thanks!  :)

For the Mass se la face ay pale, i like David Munrow on this. On the whole I've been playing The Clemencic Consort more often,  but really they're like chalk and cheese and in a way incommensurable. Clemencic is bolder, a bit more vital, a bit less slick amd polished

[asin]B000002SSA[/asin]

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 10, 2013, 12:15:51 PM
Would you mind linking or posting some of these discs from Munrow and Pro Cantione? I'm very interested. Thanks!  :)

Here are the two Munrow-led anthologies that I have:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511FaDoHQ%2BL._SX300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513s48zkmpL._SX300_.jpg)

Both are classics. If you still have LP capability, I recommend getting The Art of the Netherlands in that format, since the CD reissue leaves out an entire side of instrumental music from the original issue.

As for Pro Cantione Antiqua, most of their work has been reissued in this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61oJR6GYuSL._SY300_.jpg)

which includes, I believe, the Dufay-Dunstable album I mentioned above

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Fal%2B%2BEYeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

as well as their fervent, gripping versions of Ockeghem's Requiem and Josquin's Deploration, for years a favorite disc of mine. I had the highly praised Clerks' Group in the Requiem, but got rid of them - compared to PCA, they were bland.

Great! Thanks, friends!  :)

This thread needs this fantastic recording:

[asin]B000QFCHFA[/asin]

Anyone familiar with this one?

[asin]B001OBML24[/asin]

Looks very interesting!

Quote from: HIPster on September 12, 2013, 09:18:30 AM
Looks very interesting!

It does indeed. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Quote from: Velimir on September 10, 2013, 12:48:40 PM
Here are the two Munrow-led anthologies that I have:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511FaDoHQ%2BL._SX300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513s48zkmpL._SX300_.jpg)

Both are classics. If you still have LP capability, I recommend getting The Art of the Netherlands in that format, since the CD reissue leaves out an entire side of instrumental music from the original issue.

As for Pro Cantione Antiqua, most of their work has been reissued in this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61oJR6GYuSL._SY300_.jpg)

which includes, I believe, the Dufay-Dunstable album I mentioned above

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Fal%2B%2BEYeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

as well as their fervent, gripping versions of Ockeghem's Requiem and Josquin's Deploration, for years a favorite disc of mine. I had the highly praised Clerks' Group in the Requiem, but got rid of them - compared to PCA, they were bland.

Interestingly I have all of these both on LP and CD..... 

Quote from: HIPster on September 12, 2013, 09:18:30 AM
This thread needs this fantastic recording:

[asin]B000QFCHFA[/asin]

Anyone familiar with this one?

[asin]B001OBML24[/asin]

Looks very interesting!

I know the Blue Heron recording pretty well, and I like what they do, in Flos Florum especially.

The John Potter CD I have not enjoyed much, it just seems totally oily and vacuous. I like Potter's voice a lot though, his style of singing.

Quote from: Velimir on September 10, 2013, 12:48:40 PM
As for Pro Cantione Antiqua, most of their work has been reissued in this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61oJR6GYuSL._SY300_.jpg)

That set is really due for one of those slim boxes reissues. It's long out of print and more than half of it never had a single disc release before that set. It was straight from LP to box to out of print. 

A recent amazon mp purchase:
[asin]B000VIFMI6[/asin]

On a first listen right now and it is an incredibly beautiful disc!  The blend of voices and instruments is utterly gorgeous.

This is my first Diabolous In Music purchase and it certainly won't be the last.  Amazing group, who certainly live up to their exalted reputation with this release.

Sound is excellent, with a close-in perspective, allowing for the voices and instruments to blend together nicely.

Highly recommended to those already smitten with Dufay - and it would make an ideal starter for those new to this composer.

I already have this earmarked for the "heavy rotation" pile. . .

Just ordered from BRO:
[asin]B001OBML24[/asin]

BRO has this new for $6.99 (they have a pretty nice ECM selection in general).

Description from amazon:
A new project, based on vocal fragments by Guillaume Dufay (1397-1474), combining early music and contemporary sensibilities in a most attractive way. John Potter's clear and beautiful voice enveloped in Field's generous electronic soundscapes. Respectful but imaginative approach to Dufay, a key figure in Western music history who was the first to achieve international fame in the 15th century

Quote from: Velimir on September 10, 2013, 12:48:40 PM
Here are the two Munrow-led anthologies that I have:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511FaDoHQ%2BL._SX300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513s48zkmpL._SX300_.jpg)

Both are classics. If you still have LP capability, I recommend getting The Art of the Netherlands in that format, since the CD reissue leaves out an entire side of instrumental music from the original issue.

As for Pro Cantione Antiqua, most of their work has been reissued in this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61oJR6GYuSL._SY300_.jpg)

which includes, I believe, the Dufay-Dunstable album I mentioned above

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Fal%2B%2BEYeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

as well as their fervent, gripping versions of Ockeghem's Requiem and Josquin's Deploration, for years a favorite disc of mine. I had the highly praised Clerks' Group in the Requiem, but got rid of them - compared to PCA, they were bland.

Posting albums like this should be discouraged. We have over in CDCDCD Baklavaboy, who is seeking a cure, and Brian, who is almost clean. Temptations like this should not be flourished about.

Guess these two have to be mentioned here as well, although I have no idea on what end of the smooth/anti-smooth scale they fall (I guess on the perfect blend one, and in that they sound close to perfection to me, so go figure if you don't like that):

[asin]B000ZJVHRQ[/asin]
[asin]B0013LRKN0[/asin]

The Binchois Consort/Andrew Kirkman

The first contains the "Missa de S. Anthonii de Padua" (54 minutes) and adds the short "O proles Hispaniae/O sidus Hispaniae", the second opens with the 41 minute "Mass for Saint James the Greater" and then goes on with five shorter pieces. They were recorded in 1996 and 1997 respectively and initially appeared on Hyperion. The Helios reissues are from 2008 and should still be readily available.

Quote from: king ubu on June 15, 2014, 06:26:46 AM
Guess these two have to be mentioned here as well, although I have no idea on what end of the smooth/anti-smooth scale they fall (I guess on the perfect blend one, and in that they sound close to perfection to me, so go figure if you don't like that):

[asin]B000ZJVHRQ[/asin]
[asin]B0013LRKN0[/asin]

The Binchois Consort/Andrew Kirkman

The first contains the "Missa de S. Anthonii de Padua" (54 minutes) and adds the short "O proles Hispaniae/O sidus Hispaniae", the second opens with the 41 minute "Mass for Saint James the Greater" and then goes on with five shorter pieces. They were recorded in 1996 and 1997 respectively and initially appeared on Hyperion. The Helios reissues are from 2008 and should still be readily available.

Excellent ensemble. 

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/967/MI0000967990.jpg)

The Credo in Oxford Camerata's Homme Armé is really very very beautiful, and the balance is so perfectly voix égales  that the counterpoint is revealed in its full glory like I've never heard before. No doubt helped by their slow tempo. I think this is the best version of this mass that I've heard.

The interview here with Guido Magnano (Cantica Symphonia) seems very interesting to me, on the difference between 16th century imitative counterpoint and Dufay's voicing, and on the function of instruments. Maybe I'm wrong to value voix égales.

http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/context.aspx?Id=94

Quote from: Mandryka on November 06, 2015, 09:39:04 PM
Maybe I'm wrong to value voix égales.

Yes, you're a naughty boy. Someone should spank you.

Quote from: Mandryka on November 06, 2015, 09:39:04 PM
Maybe I'm wrong to value voix égales.

You may be right.  ;)

Quote from: Mandryka on November 06, 2015, 09:39:04 PM
The interview here with Guido Magnano (Cantica Symphonia) seems very interesting to me, on the difference between 16th century imitative counterpoint and Dufay's voicing, and on the function of instruments. Maybe I'm wrong to value voix égales.

http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/context.aspx?Id=94

Perhaps someone can point me to the good bits, but every time I sample anything by the Cantica Symphonia under Magnano it goes entirely the wrong way down.....
It sounds hugely interventionist, with made up and totally out of place sounding instrumental accompaniments... ::)

Q

Quote from: Que on November 07, 2015, 01:04:42 AM

It sounds hugely interventionist, with made up and totally out of place sounding instrumental accompaniments... ::)

Q

He says in his defence

QuoteIn this [use of instruments] we are not striving for (presumed) authenticity, but rather for a way to help the modern listener to perceive this "stratification", the peculiar dialectics between voices, and the full structural and conceptual complexity of the polyphonic texture, which escapes our aural perception if we level all timbres and flatten the differences between voices.

The practice of mixing voices and instruments, then, led us to feel that Dufay, while writing only three or four voices to form a polyphonic work, often seems to demand a genuine "orchestration", rich and varied in tone colours. This seems, in our view, to comply with the idea of "varietas" of which Dufay was the acclaimed master.

So there are two reasons to use instruments. One is to make accessible something which is allegedly essential to medieval counterpoint - that not all voices are equal. I guess the instrumental timbres underline the important voice. This is what he means by stratification.

And second, that the concept of varietas in medieval music isn't just about rhythmic variety, but also about timbre, and that the instrumental timbres help here.

I need to understand the hierarchy of voices in medieval music better to comment on this, and I'm just not there yet. I,just tried to listen to Hilliard and Cantica symphonia play the Homme Armé Credo, to see just what the instruments are actually doing, but I'm not able to draw any firm conclusions yet. I feel very conscious of my lack of understanding of medieval music.

Quote from: Mandryka on November 07, 2015, 08:02:59 AM
He says in his defence


So there are two reasons to use instruments. One is to make accessible something which is allegedly essential to medieval counterpoint - that not all voices are equal. I guess the instrumental timbres underline the important voice. This is what he means by stratification.

And second, that the concept of varietas in medieval music isn't just about rhythmic variety, but also about timbre, and that the instrumental timbres help here.

I need to understand the hierarchy of voices in medieval music better to comment on this, and I'm just not there yet. I,just tried to listen to Hilliard and Cantica symphonia play the Homme Armé Credo, to see just what the instruments are actually doing, but I'm not able to draw any firm conclusions yet. I feel very conscious of my lack of understanding of medieval music.

So, basically his reasoning is basically as follows: 1) the modern listener needs help; and 2) the composer (Dufay) needs help....
How pretentious and conceited! ???  I suddenly realise why I don't like Magnano 's approach.... ::)
Dufay surely doesn't  need any help...and neither do I.... 8)

Q

Quote from: Que on November 07, 2015, 12:32:25 PM
So, basically his reasoning is basically as follows: 1) the modern listener needs help; and 2) the composer (Dufay) needs help....
How pretentious and conceited! ???  I suddenly realise why I don't like Magnano 's approach.... ::)
Dufay surely doesn't  need any help...and neither do I.... 8)

Q

What is it that Cantica Symohinia are helping me with? What is this "stratification"?

I also am not a fan of adding instruments to the sacred vocal polyphony of Dufay by Guido Magnano and Cantica Symphonia.  While it is true we don't know everything about how instruments were used to supplement vocal performances in the Medieval and Renaissance period; we ARE certain that instruments were NOT used in church music.

Also, just the sound of it is not as pleasing to my ears as a good a cappela performance.

Quote from: sanantonio on November 08, 2015, 05:01:01 AM
I also am not a fan of adding instruments to the sacred vocal polyphony of Dufay by Guido Magnano and Cantica Symphonia.  While it is true we don't know everything about how instruments were used to supplement vocal performances in the Medieval and Renaissance period; we ARE certain that instruments were NOT used in church music.
.

I think I agree with you, and I think the guys at Cantica Symohinia would agree with you. They're not trying to recreate 14th century performance practices. What they are trying to do is as yet rather unclear to me, but I'm curious because I have an intuition that they're not charlatans.

Quote from: Que on November 07, 2015, 12:32:25 PM
So, basically his reasoning is basically as follows: 1) the modern listener needs help; and 2) the composer (Dufay) needs help....
How pretentious and conceited! ???  I suddenly realise why I don't like Magnano 's approach.... ::)
Dufay surely doesn't  need any help...and neither do I.... 8)

Q

I shall go so far as to say, that the caleidoscopic use of instruments in these recordings rather confuses me than "helps" me.

In the interview, Giuseppi Maleto directs our attention to the words "Genitum, non factum, consubstantialem Patri, per quem omnia facta sunt" in the Credo. This is an example of where the writing is particularly complex, and he thinks that it was meaningful for of all sorts of neo-platonic reasons  inaccessible to a modern audience, and that his kaleidoscope of timbres help the modern audience recognise the complexity.

Listening to it, I did feel that that the 20 seconds of music seemed more of a major event in his recording the in Summerley's or Hilliard's. And that was due to the complexity being more obvious.

More generally, I think that the CS Homme Armé is more extrovert than my other two recordings, more showy. And sometimes it sounded like a piece for brass with vocalise accompaniment.

And even more generally, the whole discussion has reminded me of Hans Zender's transcription of the Schumann Fantasie, which I think is interesting. Zender tends to give each motif its own orchestral timbre  - the result is quite revealing IMO.

Quote from: sanantonio on November 08, 2015, 05:01:01 AM
we ARE certain that instruments were NOT used in church music.

I always found this somewhat dubious. Can you point to an authoritative link, which confirms your words?

Quote from: Que on November 07, 2015, 01:04:42 AM
Perhaps someone can point me to the good bits, but every time I sample anything by the Cantica Symphonia under Magnano it goes entirely the wrong way down.....
It sounds hugely interventionist, with made up and totally out of place sounding instrumental accompaniments... ::)

Q

I have their new Isaac disc on Glossa and find the instrumental parts very (as in extremely) discreetly and unobtrusively done. I'm not sure about the quality of singing and recordings (need further listening), but any disc of previously unrecorded Issac Works are a good thing in my book!

Quote from: (: premont :) on November 10, 2015, 04:58:02 AM
I always found this somewhat dubious. Can you point to an authoritative link, which confirms your words?

No; but canon law forbade it.

Quote from: sanantonio on November 10, 2015, 05:28:03 AM
No; but canon law forbade it.

I am not sure, that this fact can be used as a proof.

Quote from: (: premont :) on November 10, 2015, 05:43:38 AM
I am not sure, that this fact can be used as a proof.

It is my understanding (not proof) that the only instrument used was the organ, which, if memory serves, began to be used, still rarely, in the 13th century and this practice gradually became accepted by the 15th century.  Horns, viols and other instruments were not used.  And it was still controversial during the Classical period depending upon who was pope.  There was a difference between Roman Catholic and Lutheran services,however, with the popes being much more conservative in this regard.

But I doubt any of this is of concern today regarding performance practice.

Personally I prefer hearing male choirs without instruments - not because of some misguided desire for authenticity, but simply because I prefer the sound.

Quote from: sanantonio on November 10, 2015, 05:55:38 AM
It is my understanding (not proof) that the only instrument used was the organ, which, if memory serves, began to be used, still rarely, in the 13th century and this practice gradually became accepted by the 15th century.  Horns, viols and other instruments were not used.  And it was still controversial during the Classical period depending upon who was pope.  There was a difference between Roman Catholic and Lutheran services,however, with the popes being much more conservative in this regard.

One does not go further than a hundred years forward in time, where Monteverdi's and the Gabrieli's sacred music for sure was performed with instrumental accompainment.

Quote from: sanantonio link
Personally I prefer hearing male choirs without instruments - not because of some misguided desire for authenticity, but simply because I prefer the sound.

That is fair enough.

Personally I like the addition of instrumental timbres, but it must be done with taste and not in a confusing way. One of the better examples of instrumental addition is (IMO) when a trombone is used to reinforce the tenor part in a "tenor" mass.

Quote from: (: premont :) on November 10, 2015, 06:04:16 AM
One does not go further than a hundred years forward in time, where Monteverdi's and the Gabrieli's sacred music for sure was performed with instrumental accompainment.

Council of Trent in the mid-1500s and what would be Baroque affected the Catholic church, but I suspect that their views were different before that.

Quote from: Que on November 07, 2015, 01:04:42 AM
Perhaps someone can point me to the good bits,
Q

Messe "Si la face est pâle."

Obviously if you're going to add instruments then you have your work cut out for you because there are extra voices to balance, and sometimes they pull that off better than others, at least if you assess what they do by the yardstick of voix égales. I must say I don't like the way brass can sometimes dominate they textures in the Homme Armé mass, though I may be applying the wrong yardstick, I don't know.

I continue to be very impressed by the beauty of Jeremy Summerley's Dufay mass.

Quote from: (: premont :) on November 10, 2015, 06:04:16 AM
One does not go further than a hundred years forward in time, where Monteverdi's and the Gabrieli's sacred music for sure was performed with instrumental accompainment.

The use was more prevelant for sacred texts not part of the ordinary of the Mass.

QuotePersonally I like the addition of instrumental timbres, but it must be done with taste and not in a confusing way. One of the better examples of instrumental addition is (IMO) when a trombone is used to reinforce the tenor part in a "tenor" mass.

Yes; minimal use cna be pleasing.

Re instruments in Dufay, does anyone know whether there is any untexted music in the masses?

Today I have been listening to The Clarks Group sing O Gemma Lux. I thought it was extremely satisfying. The whole album in fact.

Has anyone heard Cantica Symphonia's first (I think) recording of Dufay, the one with Kees Boeke? On Stradivarius. On the sleeve it credits Boeke with the role of musical director, that's quite a heavyweight, and I guess it was him who convinced them to use instruments, or rather helped them see how to use instruments, in masses.

Clemencic did an Ave Regina Coelorum with massive instrumentation, I have it on LP somewhere. Made it very processional.

As for books, my introduction to this repertoire was Reese's havy volume. Research has moved on though, I guess.

Quote from: The new erato on November 11, 2015, 07:45:58 AM
Clemencic did an Ave Regina Coelorum with massive instrumentation, I have it on LP somewhere. Made it very processional.

As for books, my introduction to this repertoire was Reese's havy volume. Research has moved on though, I guess.

I just cut that bit because I found a chronological list of works on Wikipedia (French.) The latest masses turn out to be 1463, Missa Ecce ancilla domini and 1464 (ou plus tard), Missa Ave Regina Caelorum.

If anyone knows exceptional recordings of either of these then I'd like to know because I want to explore his later style (which I've been assuming wrongly was the distinctively flowing style you hear in Homme Armé and Si la face est pâle)

Don't fancy Clemencic!

Haven't heard it for years and couldn't say, though Clemencic has a nice Senfl disc on some label IIRC.

It turns out that Ensemble Gilles Binchois recorded Ecce Ancilla Domine, I'm listening now, it certainly flows with long phrases.

Quote from: Mandryka on November 11, 2015, 07:51:27 AM
If anyone knows exceptional recordings of either of these then I'd like to know because I want to explore his later style (which I've been assuming wrongly was the distinctively flowing style you hear in Homme Armé and Si la face est pâle)

(http://d250ptlkmugbjz.cloudfront.net/images/covers/25/18/0600313011825_300.jpg)

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/032/MI0001032019.jpg)

This recording of the Mass for St James the Greater by the Binchois Consort makes the music sound like what you expect from early Dufay. There are some really beautiful moments, but on the whole the mass doesn't seem to have the psychedelic intensity of the motets on the same CD, which are really special.

That's all well and good, especially because Binchois Consort are excellent at Voix Égales style balances, except that there's this puppy, the St James Mass from Cappella Pratensis.


(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3a/eb/e1/3aebe140faa9b008a0f38bf224867823.jpg)

They slow the music right down, and in some way I haven't quite understood they have smoothed the music out: it sounds much much much older, more sedate and prayerful and introspective in a way that recalls the effect of some 13th century music. The downside, and I can imagine that for some this may be a deal breaker, is the relative absence of dramatic contrasts within sections. For me there is contrast enough, but only just.

I must say I find the tempo of Capella Pratensis really challenging, but that's not really important because I know I'll adjust my expectations once I forget Binchois Consort. My intuition is that CP find the elusive heart of the music, but I'm no expert.

At any rate I can say that these recordings are really stimulating because so very different.

Anyone read this?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415HLTuzNIL._SX316_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

(http://www.musicalcriticism.com/recordings/cd-dufay-binchois.jpg)

This performance of the Se la face ay pale mass by the Binchois Consort has a quality which I really like in all music: the combination of control and expressiveness. The balances are like a HIP organist playing a baroque fugue - it's oriented more towards transparency than to blend.  BUT - and this is a big but - it's a bit like you have nice tunes in the high voices which dominate the show and everyone else is, mostly, just supporting. At least that's what I think. I don't know if this is a property (weakness) of the music or a property (weakness) of the performance. It may be me whose just mishearing of course.

From memory this is a big difference between se la face ay pale and L'homme Armé. I could be wrong there.

Somewhere I read that people think that Dufay used a high voice heavy ensemble.

Anyone able to give an opinion about this recording?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Irmnukq4L.jpg)
Another CD by this group was mentioned in thd Best Purchases of 2015.
But I have not heard of them before.

Thanks. To the back burner it goes (,the CD, not the music)

Quote from: Mandryka on November 12, 2015, 09:24:53 AM



(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3a/eb/e1/3aebe140faa9b008a0f38bf224867823.jpg)

They slow the music right down, and in some way I haven't quite understood they have smoothed the music out: it sounds much much much older, more sedate and prayerful and introspective in a way that recalls the effect of some 13th century music. The downside, and I can imagine that for some this may be a deal breaker, is the relative absence of dramatic contrasts within sections. For me there is contrast enough, but only just.

I must say I find the tempo of Capella Pratensis really challenging, but that's not really important because I know I'll adjust my expectations once I forget Binchois Consort. My intuition is that CP find the elusive heart of the music, but I'm no expert.

Quote from: Que on May 08, 2016, 10:03:00 PM
Anitner go at this:

(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511dBgkH%2B5L.jpg)

Still think it is way too to slow and is underarticulated.
The sounds of the chorus is pleasant and transparant but lacks, apart from expression, sonority.


Q

There is an interview here with one of Lionel Meurnier which addresses some of these issues

http://lepoissonreveur.typepad.com/le_poisson_reveur/polyphonies/

Quote
A l'écoute de vos enregistrements, on est d'emblée marqué par la clarté mais aussi la souplesse de la ligne. Comment travaillez-vous pour créer cette identité sonore qui est déjà bien identifiable ?

L.M. : la ligne est en effet déterminante. Il y a certes la rhétorique, seulement quand on chante par exemple Schütz a cappella (quand je dis a cappella, cela veut aussi dire des chanteurs uniquement accompagnés par un continuo, orgue simple ou orgue et viole de gambe), il faut évidemment articuler le texte mais articuler ensemble, c'est beaucoup plus efficace que parfois de la prononciation trop accentuée où le texte perd alors son sens et cela devient une carricature. On se rend alors compte qu'il y a des lignes d'une beauté incroyable. Si on respecte bien cela, la musique prend tout son sens. C'est, par exemple très clair dans la première plage de notre disque Schütz (le "Herr, nun lässest..").

Mon travail a été alors axé sur le recrutement de chanteurs qui ont une très bonne expérience du répertoire de la Renaissance ou pré-Baroque (ou le potentiel pour devenir des « spécialistes » au sens noble du terme) car la justesse est déterminante ainsi que la recherche de timbres, de couleurs vocales qui s'assemblent naturellement pour que le groupe soit cohérent, homogène. Ensuite, nous travaillons, répétons sans cesse et ceci depuis le début, même quand nous n'avions pour ainsi dire aucun concert.

Notre ensemble existe depuis bientôt dix ans et nous sommes finalement restés "underground" pendant au moins quatre ans, mais avions énormément répété et travaillé aussi bien sur la justesse, la clarté de la ligne, les intonations que sur la signification du texte pour l'inclure dans cette « science » qu'est quelque part la rhétorique. Dans le groupe, nous avons des croyants pratiquants, non pratiquants et des athées.  Pour ces derniers, je leur demande, le temps des interprétations, aussi bien pour les enregistrement que pour les concerts, de croire, d'être investis par le texte.

Un point important est alors que chacun s'investisse pleinement pour que l'on atteigne le niveau d'intensité recherché. Je suis très soucieux que chacun puisse s'exprimer et éventuellement apporter au groupe. On fonctionne alors, que ce soit à 4, 10 ou 14, comme un ensemble de chambre.

Je retrouve même dans votre style, si je peux me permettre, une certaine forme de lyrisme qui sert admirablement ces œuvres car il leur donne chaire

L.M. : le terme de lyrisme ne me choque pas. Je dis souvent que je trouve la musique romantique très proche de la musique de la Renaissance. Si on fait abstraction du vibrato, le point commun est indéniablement la longueur de la ligne. Dans les deux cas, les lignes sont longues. C'est comme un arc que l'on étire pour atteindre un point culminant.

Entre aussi en jeu le tempo. Vos phrases semblent plus allongées, si bien que clarté de la ligne ne veut absolument pas dire sécheresse mais bien souplesse, plasticité

L.M. : en effet, nous restons attachés à un bon tempo. Beaucoup d'ensembles actuels qui interprètent la musique ancienne et baroque mènent une sorte de course à la rapidité et particulièrement sur certains compositeurs bien précis.  Ceci est certainement dû à notre rythme de vie. Il faut alors se mettre en condition, se projeter dans le contexte de l'époque où la perception du temps était complètement différente. Cette relative lenteur, conjuguée à une ligne claire, juste, permet d'atteindre une plénitude, un niveau de dépouillement au service de la densité de ces œuvres. C'est un pari qui peut d'ailleurs se révéler risqué dans le cadre d'un CD mais qui nous demande justement encore plus d'effort à chacune des prises que nous faisons. J'aime me dire qu'il existe encore beaucoup de gens en quête de cette spiritualité et de l'émotion que la musique peut nous apporter. Elle peut certes et heureusement nous divertir, mais elle ne doit pas être que cela.

It would be interesting to compare these ideas to the things Björn Schmelzer says in the booklet for his new Machaut CD, and elsewhere.

Quote from: Mandryka on May 09, 2016, 09:16:13 AM
There is an interview here with one of Lionel Meurnier which addresses some of these issues

http://lepoissonreveur.typepad.com/le_poisson_reveur/polyphonies/

It would be interesting to compare these ideas to the things Björn Schmelzer says in the booklet for his new Machaut CD, and elsewhere.

Quote from: Mandryka on May 09, 2016, 08:16:30 AM
Does the booklet have anything to say about the style? (I think it it very expressive actually.)

I thought for a minute that we were hearing totally different things, but judging from your earlier comments this is not the entirely the case...
The reasoning in the booklet goes as follows. The music was written between 1420 and 1435 in Italy, and is a mix of Franco-Flemish, French (faux bourdon), English and Italian styles. Since the music was written in Italy and had "Italian Ciconia" as model, for the recording an Italian approach was chosen:

"direct and clear, with no accents but with phrasing mostly from long to short (in contradiction to the normal French short-long pattern); with more attention to dramatic content and the linguistic shape of the text; with a more flexible approach to questions of tempo and mensuration than is normally possible with French music; with special care given to the cantus coronatus (a type of fermata used for large cadences or important words): with a sharper, more Italian, more "Pythagorean" approach to the (double) leading tone cadence; with an approach to musica ficta which, at least in a rising melody, refelcts this preference, even within a phrase."

But..."However, Dufay was a Burgundian Frenchman by birth, uprising and early training. At certain moments, especially when counterpoint and the rhythms are at their most complicated or "fractured" it is absolutely necessary to lighten the vocal approach and to become more overtone oriented, to allow snippets of melody to pass from one voice to another, to "feign consonance" when a harmonic function clashes with a melodic one."

Wait, this hotchpotch of performing styles is not done yet... "And thirdly one of Dufay's aims, at least in the last three movements of his mass was, as he had been learning from the English "de faire frisque concordance" At these moments the purely chordal style of the movements ask for a more fullbodied English sound[/i]" (!)

And there is more to the mix: "Dufay's models (forms, styles, mensurations, tempi, number and use of voices, cadences and even sound ideal) were medieval. But his attitude to all these influences was decidedly modern experimental, text oriented and ultimately unifying"

And about the morbid tempi Rebacca Stewart writes: "The sheer concentration of his writing and the quickness with which he changes from one idea to another demand that all tempi be taken more considerately yhan the current "orthodoxy" [....] Dufay's Missa Sancti iacobi [...] asks to be discovered at its leisure, not our pleasure"

Well, I certainly didn't get much pleasure out of it...... Mission accomplished.... ::)
There obviously went a lot of thinking in these performances, but the results of this "synthetic" approach utterly fail to convince me... ::)

Wait a minute, Mandryka, did I just type endless excerpts from the liner notes in the booklet because you are one of those "convenient" (lazy) download types...?  ??? ;)

Q

It's very good of you to type it, I appreciate it and didn't expect it. Thank you.

I've listened to the recording again, a couple of times in fact, since you posted it, I will try to get clearer about what I think about it and post it up soon.

It is really a shock to compare what they do to other recordings of the same mass - Dufay Ensemble and La Reverdie. You can see I reacted like you last year. You really have to completely forget any presuppositions about what the music has sounded like in other people's hands.

Quote from: Mandryka on May 11, 2016, 05:22:38 AM
It's very good of you to type it, I appreciate it and didn't expect it. Thank you.

You're welcome - all in the interest of good conversation.... :)

QuoteI've listened to the recording again, a couple of times in fact, since you posted it, I will try to get clearer about what I think about it and post it up soon.

It is really a shock to compare what they do to other recordings of the same mass - Dufay Ensemble and La Reverdie. You can see I reacted like you last year. You really have to completely forget any presuppositions about what the music has sounded like in other people's hands.

It surely is different.... Don't you think the result of this "mixing of styles" combined with "progressivity" sounds completely random ? ::)
I do...

Q

Quote from: Que on May 11, 2016, 09:53:07 AM
You're welcome - all in the interest of good conversation.... :)

It surely is different.... Don't you think the result of this "mixing of styles" combined with "progressivity" sounds completely random ? ::)
I do...

Q

Well I've tried to get my head around this mass as sung by CP, and also Binchois Consort and, to a lesser extent, La Reverdie.

One thing to say is that I think that what BN does sounds uncontrived, so no, I guess I don't hear randomness. I'm pretty naive about styles in this sort of music though.

Another thing to say is that I think that some of the things I said before exaggerated the difference between CP and others, at least apart from tempi.

But I'm having a lot of difficulty in locating some of the things they say they do in the booklet. This comment in particular got my attention because it made me think of problems  later generations (Bach's generation) had with contrapuntal music, but I just can't find examples of what they're talking about in the performance.

QuoteAt certain moments, especially when counterpoint and the rhythms are at their most complicated or "fractured" it is absolutely necessary to lighten the vocal approach and to become more overtone oriented, to allow snippets of melody to pass from one voice to another, to "feign consonance" when a harmonic function clashes with a melodic one."[my italics]

Generally I enjoy what they do in the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei, and it's interesting to see that they single out these movements as demanding a distinctively English style. Once again, I'm not really able to say with confidence what they're doing which is different to Binchois Consort or Reverdie there.

Generally I prefer the sound Binchois Consort make, sometimes I wonder if Capella Pratensis have more voices on a part, I can't be sure. 

Highly recommended this year's double-cd recording:
(http://d250ptlkmugbjz.cloudfront.net/images/covers/75/57/5425008315775_300.jpg)

There's already a review on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Du-Fay-messes-%C3%A0-teneur/dp/B01BLQJ44O

Quote from: J.II.9 on September 18, 2016, 05:35:52 AM
Highly recommended this year's double-cd recording:
(http://d250ptlkmugbjz.cloudfront.net/images/covers/75/57/5425008315775_300.jpg)

There's already a review on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Du-Fay-messes-%C3%A0-teneur/dp/B01BLQJ44O

Definitely on the wishlist! :)

Gramophone review:

Quote
Author: David Fallows

This is a red-letter day: at last we have uniform and sensible recordings of the four great cantus firmus Masses that are more or less all we have from the last 20 or so years of Dufay's life. As luck would have it, these Masses are not just all top-flight masterpieces but all slightly different in layout and approach: the Missa Se la face ay pale is built on the tenor of a much earlier polyphonic song of his own; the Missa L'homme armé is probably the first of the 40-odd known Masses built on that monophonic song of unknown origin; the Missa Ecce ancilla/Beata es uses two different chants; and the Missa Ave regina caelorum uses the chant in both the lower voices. Between them these works marvellously chart the state of the cyclic Mass in the third quarter of the 15th century.

The ensemble Cut Circle – already famous for their earlier double-disc set of Josquin and De Orto, also for Musique en Wallonie – comprises just eight singers, with two women on the top voice. Dufay would have had men on top, but Carolann Buff and Mary Gerbi are so good that nobody will regret their contribution. These are all top-rate singers with pure and excellently focused voices: every one of them appears here as a soloist in one of the duet sections, and the intonation and ensemble are beyond reproach.

What some listeners may find a stumbling block is the speeds Jesse Rodin adopts. For example, the Kyrie of the Missa Se la face ay palecomes in at 3'09", far faster than any of the 12 other recordings apart from Thomas Binkley in 1987 (3'04") and almost double the speed of what I still think of as one of the most marvellous Dufay records ever, directed by David Munrow in 1973 (5'07"). Not all the movements sound quite so hectic but most are the quickest available, and to my ears one consequence is that rather too much of the detail is swallowed. Some may also find that the lack of space rather trivialises the music and occasionally results in the singers putting too much effort into the sound. But it does at the same time make it easier for the long phrases to hang together and for the movements to come across as coherent music units.

There are many other recordings of all these works, but surely all serious collectors will want this issue of all four works, beautifully sung, beautifully recorded, beautifully presented and always exhilarating.

MusicWeb review: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Jun/Dufay_masses_MEW1577.htm

Q

Coming back to see this thread, it's interesting to see how much angst there was about Cappella Pratensis's Missa Sancti Jacobi, which I've been listening to again, with great pleasure because I like very much these aspects of their singing style:

1. No projection out
2. Constantly changing timbres
3. The basic assumption is that the sound will be quiet. There is some dynamic range.
4. The impression is often soft speech

As far as tempi is concerned, I'm fine about it. Que's word "morbid" is unfair, the performances are full of inner life, due to the kaleidoscopic timbres partly. Lionel Meunier's comments on tempo in the interview I posted above seem spot on to me.

I also think "hotchpotch" is unfair, since to my ears I don't get that there's anything incoherent about the music making, like one bit sounds in a totally different style to another. On the contrary it sounds coherent.

Quote from: Mandryka on December 16, 2016, 10:36:46 PM
Coming back to see this thread, it's interesting to see how much angst there was about Cappella Pratensis's Missa Sancti Jacobi, which I've been listening to again, with great pleasure because I like very much these aspects of their singing style:

1. No projection out
2. Constantly changing timbres
3. The basic assumption is that the sound will be quiet. There is some dynamic range.
4. The impression is often soft speech

As far as tempi is concerned, I'm fine about it. Que's word "morbid" is unfair, the performances are full of inner life, due to the kaleidoscopic timbres partly. Lionel Meunier's comments on tempo in the interview I posted above seem spot on to me.

I also think "hotchpotch" is unfair, since to my ears I don't get that there's anything incoherent about the music making, like one bit sounds in a totally different style to another. On the contrary it sounds coherent.

Well, it is always a good thing when a musical performance is appreciated. :)

But I'm not sure why you would label our conversation on this recording as "Angst (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angst)", which would refer to a state of  mind I personally don't associate with previous proceedings.

Facts are that Rebecca Stewart purposely opted for extraordinarily slow tempi and tried to combine different (regional) musical styles - not just as audible musical influences but as a synthesis. Whether that resultated in morbid tempi and incoherence, is up to personal taste. I still think it does.

Which leaves us with diametrically opposite opinions on musical performance, but that can hardly be a surprise anymore...

Q

Quote from: Mandryka on November 12, 2015, 09:24:53 AM
St James Mass from Cappella Pratensis.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3a/eb/e1/3aebe140faa9b008a0f38bf224867823.jpg)

They slow the music right down, and in some way I haven't quite understood they have smoothed the music out: it sounds much much much older, more sedate and prayerful and introspective in a way that recalls the effect of some 13th century music. The downside, and I can imagine that for some this may be a deal breaker, is the relative absence of dramatic contrasts within sections. For me there is contrast enough, but only just.

I must say I find the tempo of Capella Pratensis really challenging, but that's not really important because I know I'll adjust my expectations once I forget Binchois Consort. My intuition is that CP find the elusive heart of the music, but I'm no expert.

At any rate I can say that these recordings are really stimulating because so very different.

Sound very interesting to me.  But I cannot find this recording anywhere.  The other five in the series of Flemish music by CP are easily available, but this one is not turning up.

Where did you get it?

Quote from: sanantonio on December 17, 2016, 02:39:11 PM
Sound very interesting to me.  But I cannot find this recording anywhere.  The other five in the series of Flemish music by CP are easily available, but this one is not turning up.

Where did you get it?

It's included in this treasure chest
[asin]B005IIA9GY[/asin]

or from Outhere (https://www.outhere-music.com/fr/albums/the-flemish-polyphony-colour-book-of-200-pages-8-cd-s-in-a-magnificent-box-ric-102)

Quote from: North Star on December 17, 2016, 02:46:43 PM
It's included in this treasure chest
[asin]B005IIA9GY[/asin]

or from Outhere (https://www.outhere-music.com/fr/albums/the-flemish-polyphony-colour-book-of-200-pages-8-cd-s-in-a-magnificent-box-ric-102)

Oh, I have that box.  I'll dig into it, thanks.  But the individual recording seems to be blocked in the US.

Quote from: Mandryka on May 11, 2016, 05:22:38 AM
It is really a shock to compare what they do to other recordings of the same mass - Dufay Ensemble and La Reverdie. You can see I reacted like you last year. You really have to completely forget any presuppositions about what the music has sounded like in other people's hands.

I just listened to it.  My initial reaction is to say I loved it.  I am certainly someone who looks for a spiritual aspect to performances of this music, and this one delivered on that.  I probably will also check out the competition just out of curiosity - but I usually don't allow one recording to dictate how I think the music should go.  My only complaint is that if they had pitched it lower I would have enjoyed it even more.

Thanks for reminding me of this mass, and thanks to North Star for telling me where to find it.  (I am really glad I bought that box when I did, today it is OOP and very expensive, at least on Amazon.)

;)

Quote from: sanantonio on December 17, 2016, 03:58:06 PM
I just listened to it.  My initial reaction is to say I loved it.  I am certainly someone who looks for a spiritual aspect to performances of this music, and this one delivered on that.  I probably will also check out the competition just out of curiosity - but I usually don't allow one recording to dictate how I think the music should go.  My only complaint is that if they had pitched it lower I would have enjoyed it even more.

Thanks for reminding me of this mass, and thanks to North Star for telling me where to find it.  (I am really glad I bought that box when I did, today it is OOP and very expensive, at least on Amazon.)

;)

Did you ever get to hear Rebecc Stewart's Machaut mass? It's very much in the same style. Let me know if you want it.

She's now working with a group called Cantus Modalis, they've recorded some Heinrich Isaac which, to judge by the clips, sounds interesting to me, I've ordered the CD.

http://www.cantusmodalis.org/component/content/article/61-teachers-biografies/33-rebecca-stewart

Quote from: Mandryka on December 17, 2016, 11:12:53 PM
Did you ever get to hear Rebecc Stewart's Machaut mass? It's very much in the same style. Let me know if you want it.

She's now working with a group called Cantus Modalis, they've recorded some Heinrich Isaac which, to judge by the clips, sounds interesting to me, I've ordered the CD.

http://www.cantusmodalis.org/component/content/article/61-teachers-biografies/33-rebecca-stewart

I ordered the Machaut but it has not arrived yet.

Quote from: sanantonio on December 18, 2016, 03:20:51 AM
I ordered the Machaut but it has not arrived yet.

No you won't get the one I mean like that as far as I know, it's never been released as far as I know, it's a concert recording which used to be downloadable here, if there's a problem let me know and I'll upload my copy


http://intoclassics.net/news/2010-09-17-18584


More generally, there's a paper I'd like to read called "Performing Machaut's Messe de Notre Dame: from Modernist Allegiances to the Postmodern Hinterland" by Kirsten Yri, published in The Machaut Companion (Brill) The book's too expensive, and even downloading the paper from the publisher is more than I want to pay. Can anyone let me have it?

Quote from: Mandryka on December 18, 2016, 03:35:54 AM
No you won't get the one I mean like that as far as I know, it's never been released as far as I know, it's a concert recording which used to be downloadable here, if there's a problem let me know and I'll upload my copy


http://intoclassics.net/news/2010-09-17-18584


More generally, there's a paper I'd like to read called "Performing Machaut's Messe de Notre Dame: from Modernist Allegiances to the Postmodern Hinterland" by Kirsten Yri, published in The Machaut Companion (Brill) The book's too expensive, and even downloading the paper from the publisher is more than I want to pay. Can anyone let me have it?

You recommended a recording of the Machaut that I ordered, I just assumed you were talking about the same one.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31YXTA1B6ML.jpg)

But now I see it is by Rene Clemencic.  Thanks for the link to Rebbecca Stewart's Machaut, but I avoid Russian downloads.

I have a little book, "Machaut's Mass: An Introduction" - but I haven't looked into it for a long time.  I will see what the author says about performance.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41R0TZKHRSL._SX291_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

I subscribed to both Early Music (Oxford) and The American Musicological Society Journal in 2015 and both would have articles from time to time about 14th Century performance issues.  In one of them is probably where I read the article on pitching the music down a fourth.  Unfortunately, I did not keep my back issues.

That Brill book looks very interesting.  I don't have it, and you are right currently expensive (a used copy can be got for $159.00).

Machaut is such an interest for me, I might break down and buy it anyway.

(https://i19.servimg.com/u/f19/12/92/42/38/6porta54.jpg)


I'm beginning to get much clearer about what I'm looking for in early music performance, and so I was pleasantly surprised to find that the above CD from Studio der Frühen Musik goes some way to fitting the bill, at least some of the time. No forceful projection out, the basic assumption is that the voice will start small. This is a very great Dufay CD IMO.

(http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/files/References/116/gcd_p31904_cover.jpg)   (http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/files/References/33/P31903.jpg)  (http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/files/References/32/P31901.jpg)

I must say I find all three of these recordings of motets and songs really attractive.


There's a review on Amazon.co.uk where someone complains that the phrasing is graceless, but IMO the phrasing is one of the main strengths: they make the music sound like it's made of meaningful components.

The instrumental pars are fabulous, like a shimmering glittering web around the voices, a really beautiful filigree. True, sometimes it sounds a bit like a trumpet concerto, but not to the extent of actually obscuring the polyphony. We're talking about very early music with Dufay, and even from the point of view of historical performance preparation it's not obvious that the voices would have been as equal as in a Bach fugue! At least, as far as I know.

Tempos seem really ideal to me. Too much focus on moving the music forward makes for a glib reading, too little for a lifeless one, and they avoid both pitfalls expertly.

And the general tone of them is rapt, prayerful and room-sized. Possibly a large room in a place, but not a theatre or a cathedral. The overall pitch is not too low, I hate it when singing is dominated by low voices. Also, you have a sense of individual singers.

My only complaint is that they tend to obscure dissonant clashes in the voices by flattening. But this may be an unjustified objection. I don't know what it would sound like with a radically different approach to the cross relations, one which was more liberal about embracing clashes.

I much prefer what they do to Huelgas Ensemble in the same music, for all the reasons above, which make them like Nevel's polar opposite almost.

Basically these are three of my favourite Dufay  recordings.

Quote from: Mandryka on December 21, 2016, 07:48:53 AM
(http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/files/References/116/gcd_p31904_cover.jpg)   (http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/files/References/33/P31903.jpg)

I must say I find both these recordings of motets really attractive.

I haven't heard either of these recordings.  But in other recordings by Cantica Symphonia I did not find the added instruments to my liking.  I much prefer vocal polyphony to be just that.

;)

Quote from: sanantonio on December 21, 2016, 07:57:01 AM
I haven't heard either of these recordings.  But in other recordings by Cantica Symphonia I did not find the added instruments to my liking.  I much prefer vocal polyphony to be just that.

;)

Yes well I can go both ways.

I'd just like to say I've read through this thread several times, and have been listening to samples of the recommended recordings and really been enjoying them.  The only Renaissance composer I'm even vaguely familiar with is Tallis, but lately I find myself drawn more and more to music of the Medieval and Renaissance periods (I've been listening to a weekly radio show that features Medieval, Renaissance, and Baroque music). I can see how one can become hooked on this music. Thanks for the thread, the discussion, and the recommendations!

I wish the thread were in the Composer Discussion section, though.

EDIT: Gosh.  That was fast.

:o

Thanks!

Found this in my collection - an excellent recording I forgot I had.

Dufay and the Court of Savoy
Andrew Kirkman and the Binchois Consort

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ypB4xsoAtd8/S0sEAxMDFSI/AAAAAAAAAi8/OCAhnS3eyoQ/s320/Front_prev.jpg)

Quote from: sanantonio on December 21, 2016, 07:57:01 AM
I haven't heard either of these recordings.  But in other recordings by Cantica Symphonia I did not find the added instruments to my liking.  I much prefer vocal polyphony to be just that.

;)

Don't know those recordings, but in general and on principle +1
I have heard some recordings with sackbuts pleasing, but the best result is always from just voices.

Quote from: NJ Joe on December 21, 2016, 03:06:55 PM
I'd just like to say I've read through this thread several times, and have been listening to samples of the recommended recordings and really been enjoying them.  The only Renaissance composer I'm even vaguely familiar with is Tallis, but lately I find myself drawn more and more to music of the Medieval and Renaissance periods (I've been listening to a weekly radio show that features Medieval, Renaissance, and Baroque music). I can see how one can become hooked on this music. Thanks for the thread, the discussion, and the recommendations!

There's a whole world of stuff, and you won't go wrong with most recordings of the usual suspects as long as you choose specialist ensembles (ie NOT the big English cathedral choirs who should be avoided in this repertoire) but I want to especially mention the Fayrfax masses recorded by Andrew Carwood.

Recently been reading stuff about Dufay's works. What I find particularly interesting is his appropriation and fusion of aspects from French and Italian styles of composition.

Can anyone recommend good ensembles which have performed his secular works?

Quote from: jessop on December 21, 2016, 06:51:43 PM
Recently been reading stuff about Dufay's works. What I find particularly interesting is his appropriation and fusion of aspects from French and Italian styles of composition.

Can anyone recommend good ensembles which have performed his secular works?

Cannot recall the group but the Florilegium set is excellent. Davies. 

Quote from: jessop on December 21, 2016, 06:51:43 PM
Recently been reading stuff about Dufay's works. What I find particularly interesting is his appropriation and fusion of aspects from French and Italian styles of composition.

Can anyone recommend good ensembles which have performed his secular works?

There isn't much, it fits on one CD.  I have a couple, this one is okay, but a bit dated:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/411K1AS0ABL.jpg)

Since I am mainly interested in the sacred music, I haven't kept up with any newer groups doing the chansons - but there must be something out there.

Quote from: sanantonio on December 21, 2016, 06:58:18 PM
There isn't much, it fits on one CD.  I have a couple, this one is okay, but a bit dated:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/411K1AS0ABL.jpg)

Since I am mainly interested in the sacred music, I haven't kept up with any newer groups doing the chansons - but there must be something out there.

That's the one. I think there is in fact another disc of non-liturgical stuff by the same group. I think the same group did a larger Ockeghem secular set, which is also fine. Same label anyway.

Thanks very much for your recommendations :)

Quote from: Ken B on December 21, 2016, 06:45:02 PM
(ie NOT the big English cathedral choirs who should be avoided in this repertoire)

Sommerely with Oxford Camerata recorded Miss L'Homme Armé, and it is IMO the most deep and satisfying recording of the mass on record, maybe the best recording of any Dufay mass, apart from the one Rebecca Stewart made. Sommerly's way of performing the credo - which is the high point of the mass and the high point of Dufay's mass music IMO - is extraordinarily spiritual, not least because of his daring and imaginative choice of tempo.

Re the motets and instruments, I think (I'm not sure) that there are so many more recordings with instruments than without that it's a bit presumptuous to call them "vocal" - I have a feeling that you'll be very limited in the motets you can hear if you avoid instruments completely.

Quote from: jessop on December 21, 2016, 06:51:43 PM
Recently been reading stuff about Dufay's works. What I find particularly interesting is his appropriation and fusion of aspects from French and Italian styles of composition.

Can anyone recommend good ensembles which have performed his secular works?

Ensemble Alta Musica, Ensemble Unicorn,  Ensemble Tetraktys, La Rerverdie, Diabolus in Musica, Studio der Frühen Musik. You may also enjoy Ambrose Field's constructions with John Potter  (I do)

Quote from: Mandryka on December 21, 2016, 10:13:22 PM

Ensemble Alta Musica, Ensemble Unicorn,  Ensemble Tetraktys, La Rerverdie, Diabolus in Musica, Studio der Frühen Musik. You may also enjoy Ambrose Field's constructions with John Potter  (I do)

Thanks a lot for this. I'll keep a note..........

So far I have really been enjoying his liturgical works though. Need to explore some of the secular stuff

Quote from: Mandryka on December 21, 2016, 09:23:47 PM
Sommerely with Oxford Camerata recorded Miss L'Homme Armé, and it is IMO the most deep and satisfying recording of the mass on record, maybe the best recording of any Dufay mass, apart from the one Rebecca Stewart made. Sommerly's way of performing the credo - which is the high point of the mass and the high point of Dufay's mass music IMO - is extraordinarily spiritual, not least because of his daring and imaginative choice of tempo.

It is very fine. But they are a specialist ensemble. They are NOT the choir of Queens' College Oxford or King's College Cambridge, much less a large cathedral choir. It's a small, specialist group of about a dozen singers who focus on polyphony.

Found this on my shelves; nice.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51o5DbSeucL.jpg)

Good singing and tasteful instrumental accompaniment.

Quote from: sanantonio on December 21, 2016, 06:35:14 PM
Found this in my collection - an excellent recording I forgot I had.

Dufay and the Court of Savoy
Andrew Kirkman and the Binchois Consort

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ypB4xsoAtd8/S0sEAxMDFSI/AAAAAAAAAi8/OCAhnS3eyoQ/s320/Front_prev.jpg)

It's a sweet and harmonious performance of the Mass Sine Nomine, sung no doubt by Botticelli putti.

For a contrasting view of how to make sense of Dufay, you could try Clemencic's  deliberately archaic, angular, vigorous, discordant interpretation on Harmonia Mundi, sung no doubt by angels with dirty faces.

(Listening to it I wondered whether the essential thing about Oxbridge singing is its disembodiedness, its flight from physical theatre. Clemencic has blood and guts, you know.)

(http://is1.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music/v4/30/bf/fc/30bffc4d-893b-d322-7670-1fb7dd1f3a7a/source/1500x1500sr.jpg)



Dufay's last dated mass was, I believe, Missa Ave Regina Coelorum. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that it is his greatest, or one of them, because of the wonderful performance by Cantica Symphonia. Cut Circle recently recorded it more vigorously and quickly, OVPP I think too, but I don't like what they do as much. Cantica Symphonia have something in common with Rebecca Stewart: the general assumption is that the voice starts off with a small sound, and that suits me very well. Cut Circle sing forth robustly.

I'm not sure how to put this, but I want to say that Cantica Symphonia make this mass sound more Renaissance than Medieval. In terms of lyricism, voicing, textures, colours, sensuality, warmth, beauty,  we're in a world which even resembles Josquin's. I would love to hear this music performed in a more archaic, spiky and dissonant way.

I'm going to try and get a better handle on Dufay's development. The only chronology I can find is on his page in Wikipedia.fr, and that leaves most of the motets and all the secular music undated. Anyone got any ideas about what were his last songs?

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0002/899/MI0002899006.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)


Two striking things about Jill Feldman in this recording are that her voice is very high (the grain of the voice makes me think of Birget Nilsson), and that her style is totally nonchalant. The voice has a certain squillo almost, which allows it to penetrate gently and firmly through the gossamer of instrumental music. The songs are all full of catchy tunes.

In terms of the poetry, she's quite natural, in the sense that you don't get the impression that she's digging deep into every vowel and consonant for meaning. But that's art hiding art - has there ever been a more "meaningful" recorded performance of the late chanson "Hélas mon deuil" for example?  I don't think so.  Comparing what they do their with Davies Bros, Monroe and Binkley  makes me think that this is a really exceptional CD.


The result is a recording with a certain hippy-trippy quality. I can imagine listening to it smoking a bong in a tent, with Brit Ekland at my side.

Quote from: Mandryka on December 30, 2016, 09:45:39 PM
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Dufay's last dated mass was, I believe, Missa Ave Regina Coelorum. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that it is his greatest, or one of them, because of the wonderful performance by Cantica Symphonia. Cut Circle recently recorded it more vigorously and quickly, OVPP I think too, but I don't like what they do as much. Cantica Symphonia have something in common with Rebecca Stewart: the general assumption is that the voice starts off with a small sound, and that suits me very well. Cut Circle sing forth robustly.

I'm not sure how to put this, but I want to say that Cantica Symphonia make this mass sound more Renaissance than Medieval. In terms of lyricism, voicing, textures, colours, sensuality, warmth, beauty,  we're in a world which even resembles Josquin's. I would love to hear this music performed in a more archaic, spiky and dissonant way.

I'm going to try and get a better handle on Dufay's development. The only chronology I can find is on his page in Wikipedia.fr, and that leaves most of the motets and all the secular music undated. Anyone got any ideas about what were his last songs?

He composed songs throughout his career, mainly rondeaux.  The ballades are all early works but the few virelais and bergerettes are somewhat late, the chansons are also late.  You are correct in assuming that Missa Ave Regina is the last mass and some consider it a summing up of Dufay's approach to mass composition.

Dufay (1397-1474) would be early Renaissance.  The Medieval period (Middle ages) in music is usually considered occurring from 500-1400.  By the end of Machaut's life the music was changing, and in fact Machaut purposely used older forms such as the David Hocket as a reference to this phenomenon happening around him, similar to Bach being considered "old school".

Quote from: sanantonio on December 31, 2016, 02:50:25 PM
He composed songs throughout his career, mainly rondeaux.  The ballades are all early works but the few virelais and bergerettes are somewhat late, the chansons are also late. 

Re the chronology, there's a book by one C E Hamm which is devoted to it, and it turns out that the Davies Bros. set of songs is arranged by Hamm's ideas about temporal order.

Quote from: sanantonio on December 31, 2016, 02:50:25 PM
You are correct in assuming that Missa Ave Regina is the last mass and some consider it a summing up of Dufay's approach to mass composition.

Where did you get that idea from?

Quote from: Mandryka on December 31, 2016, 10:49:43 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on December 31, 2016, 02:50:25 PM
You are correct in assuming that Missa Ave Regina is the last mass and some consider it a summing up of Dufay's approach to mass composition.

Where did you get that idea from?

Grove: because the mass incorporates the different stylistic methods that Dufay had used previously.

(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/146/1045146.jpg)


I've decided I like The Boston Church's recording of Missa Ancille Domine. It's not too celebratory, which suits me. You don't feel as though the music is being pushed forward energetically, or that the pulse underlined too fiercely. The Boston Church give me time to savour the roses, or in some moods, to reflect on the mass and its music.

It's well produced - not too closely miked. And the pitch is quite high: I prefer higher voices.

Another recording of the mass I quite enjoy is with Schola Cantorum Stuttgart, but that's with a large choir and hence it feels a bit dated, rightly or wrongly. Nevertheless it is rapt.

The rest? Well I'm sure many people will enjoy Cut Circle most, I can see they're very clear with the voice leading, but they're just not what I'm looking for. They are too dynamic for me, and I prefer the Boston pitch. I probably should listen to Vellard again.

Clemencic is quite simply dreadful, with René's own bombastic instrumental music often obscuring Dufay's music.

Quote from: Mandryka on January 08, 2017, 06:56:21 AM
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I've decided I like The Boston Church's recording of Missa Ancille Domine. It's not too celebratory, which suits me. You don't feel as though the music is being pushed forward energetically, or that the pulse underlined too fiercely. The Boston Church give me time to savour the roses, or in some moods, to reflect on the mass and its music.

It's well produced - not too closely miked. And the pitch is quite high: I prefer higher voices.

Another recording of the mass I quite enjoy is with Schola Cantorum Stuttgart, but that's with a large choir and hence it feels a bit dated, rightly or wrongly. Nevertheless it is rapt.

The rest? Well I'm sure many people will enjoy Cut Circle most, I can see they're very clear with the voice leading, but they're just not what I'm looking for. They are too dynamic for me, and I prefer the Boston pitch. I probably should listen to Vellard again.

Clemencic is quite simply dreadful, with René's own bombastic instrumental music often obscuring Dufay's music.

I listened to the first couple of movements of the Boston recording and had the opposite reaction to you, i.e. I do not prefer the highly pitched voices.  I am frankly tired of hearing female voices in this music and just wish people would treat this issue with the same kind of integrity they did with the issue of adding instruments under the voices - most performers simply discontinued the practice.

My guess, although I haven't heard it yet, is that as in most of this repertoire Ensemble Gilles Binchois/Dominique Vellard is a very good choice, albeit prohibitively expensive from US sources.  Other self-recommending choices, alas, just as hard to find, would include The Sound and the Fury and The Clerks' Group.

I have Ockeghem's M. Ancilla Domine by both Sound and Fury and Clerks Group - if you want them just say.  I'll try to listen to  Vellard soon, my guess is you'll enjoy Cut Circle.

Vellard is dependably something. Dependably beautiful and polished. Which may well be the right way to be.

(I just note that I prefer Ockeghem's mass to Dufay's, but that may be a reflection on performances rather than anything else.)

Quote from: Mandryka on January 08, 2017, 07:57:04 AM
I have Ockeghem's M. Ancilla Domine by both Sound and Fury and Clerks Group - if you want them just say.  I'll try to listen to  Vellard soon, my guess is you'll enjoy Cut Circle.

Vellard is dependably something. Dependably beautiful and polished. Which may well be the right way to be.

(I just note that I prefer Ockeghem's mass to Dufay's, but that may be a reflection on performances rather than anything else.)

Is it Ockeghem by SatF and TCG instead of Dufay?  Vellard usually uses only male voices and also often includes plainchant - which is why his recordings receive high marks from me.

It is odd that you seem to accuse Vellard of being "beautiful" and yet prefer women sopranos - which is typically "beautiful", I guess, to some ears.  I find it entirely wrong.  I am so glad Anonymous 4 finally disbanded (after what, 100 recordings?)  I considered them an atrocity. 

This music is not supposed to sound pleasant, beautiful, or "cute" like soft bunnies.  Faith is hard, so the music that coveys the experience of faith should also have an edge, appear resolute and strong; disciplined, masculine - not soft focused, warm and fuzzy like I hear with female voices.  It is wrong to use large choirs and it is simply wrong to use women.

To each his own, I suppose, but there is the issue of what is more authentic for the period.

Quote from: sanantonio on January 08, 2017, 08:18:30 AM
Is it Ockeghem by SatF and TCG instead of Dufay?  Vellard usually uses only male voices and also often includes plainchant - which is why his recordings receive high marks from me.

It is odd that you seem to accuse Vellard of being "beautiful" and yet prefer women sopranos - which is typically "beautiful", I guess, to some ears.  I find it entirely wrong.  I am so glad Anonymous 4 finally disbanded (after what, 100 recordings?)  I considered them an atrocity. 

This music is not supposed to sound pleasant, beautiful, or "cute" like soft bunnies.  Faith is hard, so the music that coveys the experience of faith should also have an edge, appear resolute and strong; disciplined, masculine - not soft focused, warm and fuzzy like I hear with female voices.  It is wrong to use large choirs and it is simply wrong to use women.

To each his own, I suppose, but there is the issue of what is more authentic for the period.

Is it just your preference, or is there any record that church and the composers in the Renaissance era thought sacred music should sound masculine, not beautiful? Yes, only male voices were allowed in church, but I think it was not because of musical reasons. As polyphony was being developed, voices in higher registers were more and more required, and the composers needed to rely on available singers / techniques like boy soprano, falsetto, or castrato. From purely musical point of view, wouldn't they have wanted to use women in the performance of their works if it was allowed? Or, they were so pious that such an idea didn't even occur to them?

I don't think female voice is necessarily cute, soft focused or fuzzy. (Dufay's Missa/Motets recordings by La Reverdie, Huelgas-Ensemble, Blue Heron, Oxford Camerata are all good.) I prefer good female singers to boy soprano or falsetto (I am ambivalent about counter tenor), even though it is not authentic. (However, regarding Anonymous 4, though I don't dislike the group, they sound too atmospheric to me.)

Quote from: torut on January 08, 2017, 01:41:37 PM
Is it just your preference, or is there any record that church and the composers in the Renaissance era thought sacred music should sound masculine, not beautiful? Yes, only male voices were allowed in church, but I think it was not because of musical reasons. As polyphony was being developed, voices in higher registers were more and more required, and the composers needed to rely on available singers / techniques like boy soprano, falsetto, or castrato. From purely musical point of view, wouldn't they have wanted to use women in the performance of their works if it was allowed? Or, they were so pious that such an idea didn't even occur to them?

I don't think female voice is necessarily cute, soft focused or fuzzy. (Dufay's Missa/Motets recordings by La Reverdie, Huelgas-Ensemble, Blue Heron, Oxford Camerata are all good.) I prefer good female singers to boy soprano or falsetto (I am ambivalent about counter tenor), even though it is not authentic. (However, regarding Anonymous 4, though I don't dislike the group, they sound too atmospheric to me.)

Andrew Parrott has argued (http://em.oxfordjournals.org/content/12/4/490.extract) (convincingly imo) that there was no use of falsetto singers well into the Renaissance and put forward the idea that the Monteverdi 1610 Vespers were pitched a fourth lower than A=440.  This would not need falsetto, let alone female, voices but was done with a small choir of men: tenors and baritones.

You should seek out his recording of it (https://www.amazon.com/Monteverdi-Vespro-della-Beata-Vergine/dp/B000031WJB) as well as his recording of the Machaut Messe (https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Notre-Dame-Palestrina-Allegri-Morales/dp/B01N8SS7HL/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1483916146&sr=1-1&keywords=parrott+machaut+messe) to hear what his group sounds like.

Regarding church use, no female singers were ever used, hence all of the sacred music for at least the Medieval (500-1400) and Renaissance (1400-1650) used only men for music for the church.  I think it was the norm also during the Baroque period to use boys and not women.  I am not sure when women began to sing in church but certainly for music falling under the rubric "Early Music" they were not used.

I happened to prefer the sound of a male group and follow Parrott's argument about the pitching of the music as well.

One thing I find really annoying is that Kandel doesn't say anything, at least as far as I know, about why he used women for the triplum in Machaut's mass, given that the performance seems to want to use the latest ideas about  It would be interesting to know what Gérard Geay has to say about it. At least Peter Philips is open about this - he just does what he likes!

They must have used women to sing the mass in convents!

Quote from: Mandryka on January 08, 2017, 11:01:46 PM
One thing I find really annoying is that Kandel doesn't say anything, at least as far as I know, about why he used women for the triplum in Machaut's mass, given that the performance seems to want to use the latest ideas about  It would be interesting to know what Gérard Geay has to say about it. At least Peter Philips is open about this - he just does what he likes!

They must have used women to sing the mass in convents!

Yes, Hildegard von Bingen had her female choir in the 12th century.  I looked for something from Gérard Geay, in the booklet and elsewhere, and couldn't find anything.  I was looking mainly because they sang a g# in the KYRIE I's first phrase that is not notated in the Leech-Wilkinson score and I wanted to find out where they got that idea.  I think Schmelzer also sings a g# here, so it might appear in one of the manuscript sources.  I asked E. E. Leach but haven't' heard back, and am on the verge of trying to contact Leech-Wilkinson or even Kandel himself.

I am unsure about motets but for secular songs women were used, in fact, there were female troubadours, I believe.  It was just in church where there was an overt non-use.

Quote from: sanantonio on January 09, 2017, 02:17:32 AM
Yes, Hildegard von Bingen had her female choir in the 12th century.  I looked for something from Gérard Geay, in the booklet and elsewhere, and couldn't find anything.  I was looking mainly because they sang a g# in the KYRIE I's first phrase that is not notated in the Leech-Wilkinson score and I wanted to find out where they got that idea.  I think Schmelzer also sings a g# here, so it might appear in one of the manuscript sources. 

Not necessarily. The performers may have sharpened the notes according to the rules of musica ficta.

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 09, 2017, 02:52:59 AM
Not necessarily. The performers may have sharpened the notes according to the rules of musica ficta.

Maybe; but they would be in the minority of other scholars, e.g. Daniel Leech-Wilkinson who has done the most current research and published the standard performance score has a g natural in the same place, which most groups observe.  It was quite surprising to hear it.

As far as I understand, the music of the French school's masses first and foremost served the purpose to decorate and embellish the words, and not to express them in the way we percieve the word "express" since the romantic age. Just like the decorated capitals in manuscripts from that time. This is my main objection to Schmelzer's interpretation, which is anything but beautiful and instead expressive in a kind of romantic sense. And his claimed intention of making Machaut's mass sound "new" to us is IMO besides the point. Think of all the great music which sounded new to the first listeners. Should we distort our interpretations of this to make it sound new to us again? What about the Choral symphony or Le Sacre du Printemps? I think Schmelzer has taken his arguments out of the air, with the purpose of creating a sensation. With all the existing fine recordings of Machaut's mass it is of course difficult to make a new, which creates sensation by informed arguments.

Quote from: sanantonio on January 09, 2017, 03:01:50 AM
Maybe; but they would be in the minority of other scholars, e.g. Daniel Leech-Wilkinson who has done the most current research and published the standard performance score has a g natural in the same place, which most groups observe.  It was quite surprising to hear it.

I suppose you think of the G sharp in bar two of the Kyrie.

The edition by Lucy Cross (Ed. Peters 1998) which is intended as a score for practical performance, has a lot of "adaptions", In this edition the note is G sharp (sharped Causa Pulchritudinis). The rules of musica ficta were of course meant to be used in performance, which she explains in a chapter dealing with musica ficta.

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 09, 2017, 03:31:56 AM
I suppose you think of the G sharp in bar two of the Kyrie.

The edition by Lucy Cross (Ed. Peters 1998) which is intended as a score for practical performance, has a lot of "adaptions", In this edition the note is G sharp (sharped Causa Pulchritudinis). The rules of musica ficta were of course meant to be used in performance, which she explains in a chapter dealing with musica ficta.

I have not seen her score, but will seek it out.  The g# may "solve" one problem (although I find the E minor tonality to be pleasing) but creates a different one with the c in the motetus creating a E augmented vertical sound.  I would like to understand why she chose to sharp the g whereas Leech-Wilkinson and others did not.  Also the tenor, which carries the chant, has a g natural which should not be changed.  g against g# seems very odd.

Granted during Machaut's time they were thinking linearly and not vertically, in fact tolerating "illegal" contrapuntal movement between internal voices as long as the counterpoint was pure in relation to the bottom voice at the time.  Still I wonder if that augmented chord might have been extraordinary for them.

I found a review of the Cross score here:

Reviewed Work: Messe de Nostre Dame [For] Mixed Voices by Guillaume de Machaut, Lucy E. Cross
Review by: Virginia Newes
Notes
Second Series, Vol. 57, No. 3 (Mar., 2001), pp. 717-721
Published by: Music Library Association
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/900841

The conclusion of the reviewer is that this score should not be recommended because of the liberal application of sharps (which are all put inside the score instead of above as is usually done with editorial decisions).

I will keep looking for other opinions of this score.

Interesting, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Quote from: sanantonio on January 09, 2017, 04:32:44 AM
I have not seen her score, but will seek it out.  The g# may "solve" one problem (although I find the E minor tonality to be pleasing) but creates a different one with the c in the motetus creating a E augmented vertical sound.  I would like to understand why she chose to sharp the g whereas Leech-Wilkinson and others did not.  Also the tenor, which carries the chant, has a g natural which should not be changed.  g against g# seems very odd.

In the bar in question she has also sharpened the g in the tenor and the c in the motetus, I suppose because of the rising steps in all three parts.

Quote from: sanantonio on January 09, 2017, 04:45:44 AM
The conclusion of the reviewer is that this score should not be recommended because of the liberal application of sharps (which are all put inside the score instead of above as is usually done with editorial decisions).

I agree, that she should have put the sharps above the notes to distinguish them clearly as edited, but on the other hand she has written a report, which mentions all edited notes, so she is open about it.

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 09, 2017, 04:52:05 AM
In the bar in question she has also sharpened the g in the tenor and the c in the motetus, I suppose because of the rising steps in all three parts.

Yes; in reading the review this bar was cited in particular as an example of her liberal application of sharps.  The reviewer cites the reluctance of editors to alter the cantus firmus except at cadences, as is done by Leech-Wilkinson at the end of the KYRIE I when both the c and g are raised for the last consonance.  But to do this for every instance of a imperfect interval (3rd; 6th) moving to the octave or fifth is unusual, especially if it means changing the cantus firmus.

NOTE: I am mirroring this discussion over at the Machaut thread since I want to keep as much of the discussion of the mass there as possible. 

I found a review of the Cross score here:

Reviewed Work: Messe de Nostre Dame [For] Mixed Voices by Guillaume de Machaut, Lucy E. Cross
Review by: Virginia Newes
Notes
Second Series, Vol. 57, No. 3 (Mar., 2001), pp. 717-721
Published by: Music Library Association
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/900841

The conclusion of the reviewer is that this score should not be recommended because of the liberal application of sharps (which are all put inside the score instead of above as is usually done with editorial decisions).

I will keep looking for other opinions of this score.

Interesting, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Yes; in reading the review this bar was cited in particular as an example of her liberal application of sharps.  The reviewer cites the reluctance of editors to alter the cantus firmus except at cadences, as is done by Leech-Wilkinson at the end of the KYRIE I when both the c and g are raised for the last consonance.  But to do this for every instance of a imperfect interval (3rd; 6th) moving to the octave or fifth is unusual, especially if it means changing the cantus firmus.

Quote from: sanantonio on January 08, 2017, 01:57:08 PM
Andrew Parrott has argued (http://em.oxfordjournals.org/content/12/4/490.extract) (convincingly imo) that there was no use of falsetto singers well into the Renaissance and put forward the idea that the Monteverdi 1610 Vespers were pitched a fourth lower than A=440.  This would not need falsetto, let alone female, voices but was done with a small choir of men: tenors and baritones.

You should seek out his recording of it (https://www.amazon.com/Monteverdi-Vespro-della-Beata-Vergine/dp/B000031WJB) as well as his recording of the Machaut Messe (https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Notre-Dame-Palestrina-Allegri-Morales/dp/B01N8SS7HL/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1483916146&sr=1-1&keywords=parrott+machaut+messe) to hear what his group sounds like.

Regarding church use, no female singers were ever used, hence all of the sacred music for at least the Medieval (500-1400) and Renaissance (1400-1650) used only men for music for the church.  I think it was the norm also during the Baroque period to use boys and not women.  I am not sure when women began to sing in church but certainly for music falling under the rubric "Early Music" they were not used.

I happened to prefer the sound of a male group and follow Parrott's argument about the pitching of the music as well.

Thank you, the article seems to discuss what I have been interested in. (I am trying to find out a way to purchase the article but a subscription seems required.)

Quote from: torut on January 10, 2017, 08:36:28 PM
Thank you, the article seems to discuss what I have been interested in. (I am trying to find out a way to purchase the article but a subscription seems required.)

The same essay along others by Parrott have been collected in his book published in July, 2015:

[asin]1783270322[/asin]

I used to subscribe to Early Music but replaced it with a subscription to JStor which includes many articles from EM as well as several other scholarly music journals.

^ I am currently reading that book. It is very interesting, thanks again. I thought male falsettists were used in the church music since the middle age, but according to Parrott, the highest part had been tenor and the total voice range was usually about 15 notes (~2 octaves), within male's natural range. Boy choir was used but until the 15th century they were separated from adults only choir.

I received the Parrott's Machaut CD today. Messe de Notre-Dame is sung in lower pitches, a 4th lower than the other recordings I have (Deller Consort, Oxford Camerata.) I found it really nice. I don't know if Parrott's theory is widely accepted or still controversial, but this performance sounds natural, much more than the Deller's.

Quote from: torut on January 29, 2017, 09:56:10 PM
^ I am currently reading that book. It is very interesting, thanks again. I thought male falsettists were used in the church music since the middle age, but according to Parrott, the highest part had been tenor and the total voice range was usually about 15 notes (~2 octaves), within male's natural range. Boy choir was used but until the 15th century they were separated from adults only choir.

I received the Parrott's Machaut CD today. Messe de Notre-Dame is sung in lower pitches, a 4th lower than the other recordings I have (Deller Consort, Oxford Camerata.) I found it really nice. I don't know if Parrott's theory is widely accepted or still controversial, but this performance sounds natural, much more than the Deller's.

Our use of the voice term "tenor" is as a vocal range whereas in Medieval and throughout the Renaissance the term means the voice "holding" the cantus firmus (holding, from Latin tenere).  The next voice is contratenor, also not as we use countertenor as a falsetto voice, but as the voice working in and around the tenor voice.  The other two voices were triplus and motetus.  These four voices were not the same s our SATB vocal ensemble, but two pairs of voices of similar range: higher and lower; each pair often crossed and generally shared the same range, the higher voices (triplus and motetus) a fifth above the lower voices (tenor and contratenor).

There is every reason to believe that the Parrott is closer to correct than not, he relies on solid scholarship - but his theory has not been universally taken up, mainly because of our long tradition of using mixed choirs and hearing the music at a certain pitch.

I too enjoy Parrott's performance/recording of La Messe very much, and consider it my "go-to" recording.

Quote from: Que on April 28, 2017, 11:20:18 PM
Morning listening is a revisit to this set:

[asin]B01BLQJ44O[/asin]
This is growing on me.... The reason I say that, is because Jesse Rodin definitely does something new here...

The paces are noticeably quicker, more flowing, which creates all kinds of effects. Firstly the effect is less reverential, secondly more emphasis is placed on musical development and effects, thirdly there is less room (time) to "micro-dramatise" elements in the text. As a result the achieved expressivenes is of a different nature, if that makes any sense.... I feel this bridges some of the huge gap with the approach usually taken in secular repertoire of this period.
The singing is two-per-part BTW, with female sopranos.

The added reviews will perhaps provide  more insights, though it is a pity that Johan van Veen didn't review this set.

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/dufay-les-messes-%C3%A0-teneur

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Jun/Dufay_masses_MEW1577.htm

http://www.classicalacarte.net/Production/Production_07_16/MEW157778_39_6_fanfare.htm

Q

Thanks for finding all these reviews. The only thing I've listened to carefully on the Cut Circle CD is Missa Ecce Ancilla Domine. The point that Gary Higginson made for musicweb about the consequences of Cut Circle giving the chant to the bass voices seems right. There's something extrovert about their style in the mass, it's not intimate, prayerful and confidential. They make big loud sounds project forcefully out of their mouth, sometimes in a quasi operatic way. Maybe that's a justifiable  way to take this mass, I don't know offhand if it was conceived for a state occasion.

Quote from: Mandryka on April 29, 2017, 07:32:33 AM
[....] There's something extrovert about their style in the mass, it's not intimate, prayerful and confidential.

I didn't recall that you were so negative on thus recording before, but I definitely can get that....  :)

QuoteThey make big loud sounds project forcefully out of their mouth, sometimes in a quasi operatic way.

But not this, which actually sounds as if you are commenting on the style of The Sound and the Fury?

Q

Quote from: Que on April 29, 2017, 08:17:06 AM
I didn't recall that you were so negative on thus recording before, but I definitely can get that....  :)

But not this, which actually sounds as if you are commenting on the style of The Sound and the Fury?

Q

I'm not negative about it! I'm trying to avoid being evaluative. You'll hear what I mean about the size of the sound they make if you check Veillard in the same mass, maybe.

The ensemble that have most formed my tastes in this type of music are  Capella Pratensis, (the early recordings ) and  Cantica Symphonia (with Giuseppi Maletto.)  Some things by Clemencic too.

Morning listening is a revisit of the 2nd disc to this set:

[asin]B01BLQJ44O[/asin]

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/dufay-les-messes-%C3%A0-teneur
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Jun/Dufay_masses_MEW1577.htm
http://www.classicalacarte.net/Production/Production_07_16/MEW157778_39_6_fanfare.htm

Quote from: Mandryka on April 29, 2017, 08:52:59 AM
I'm not negative about it! I'm trying to avoid being evaluative. You'll hear what I mean about the size of the sound they make if you check Veillard in the same mass, maybe.
The ensemble that have most formed my tastes in this type of music are  Capella Pratensis, (the early recordings ) and  Cantica Symphonia (with Giuseppi Maletto.)  Some things by Clemencic too.

OK, not that I would mind... :D The point that I would like to make about you "operatic" comment is that I don't hear a theatrical/ dramatised style, but on the contrary feel that the emphasis on the musical dynamics leads to a more abstract effect.

I agree on your liking of the Cappella Pratensis (but not Maletto...), their style has changed significantly as well as I found out with their Ockeghem Requiem recording.
It seems that the general trend is away from "slow and reverential" towards small forces and a more expressive and dynamic style, though different ensembles take (very) different approaches to achieve this.

Quote from: Mandryka on April 29, 2017, 12:23:47 PM
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Veillard and Cut Circle in just the Agnus Dei of Dufay's Missa Ecce Ancilla Domini. I much prefer Veillard.

I don't have the Vellard but am a great admiror, will try to find it. :)
To be honest, I do feel he sometimes overdoes the slow and reverential style...
I'm actually listening to this mass by Rodin right now, and find a rather good performance - more relaxed than the Missa Se la face ay pale on the 1st disc.
Nonetheless I can see how this set wouldn't win me entirely over as their Desprez/De Orto album did.

Q

Quote from: Que on April 29, 2017, 11:02:04 PM
Morning listening is a revisit of the 2nd disc to this set:

[asin]B01BLQJ44O[/asin]

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/dufay-les-messes-%C3%A0-teneur
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Jun/Dufay_masses_MEW1577.htm
http://www.classicalacarte.net/Production/Production_07_16/MEW157778_39_6_fanfare.htm

OK, not that I would mind... :D The point that I would like to make about you "operatic" comment is that I don't hear a theatrical/ dramatised style, but on the contrary feel that the emphasis on the musical dynamics leads to a more abstract effect.

I agree on your liking of the Cappella Pratensis (but not Maletto...), their style has changed significantly as well as I found out with their Ockeghem Requiem recording.
It seems that the general trend is away from "slow and reverential" towards small forces and a more expressive and dynamic style, though different ensembles take (very) different approaches to achieve this.

I don't have the Vellard but am a great admiror, will try to find it. :)
To be honest, I do feel he sometimes overdoes the slow and reverential style...
I'm actually listening to this mass by Rodin right now, and find a rather good performance - more relaxed than the Missa Se la face ay pale on the 1st disc.
Nonetheless I can see how this set wouldn't win me entirely over as their Desprez/De Orto album did.

Q

Yes The first Maletto Dufay mass CD stands apart a bit from the later recordings, for me it was a real eye-opener. I'm talking about the one on Stradivarius, this:

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I agree that CP's style changed significantly, I think after the departure of Rebecca Stewart. I agree also that Veillard likes to do things slowly and it may not be everyone's cup of tea. I'll tell you what though, these Dufay  late masses are very good, it's good to meet someone else who's curious about them.

Another one to check out -- I know you're gonna think it's rubbish but it isn't -- is Schola Cantorum Stuttgart. Large choir.  Big Brilliant box of music thing.

(http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/files/References/339/GCD_P31907_front_HD.jpg)

Cantica Symphonia in Dufay's 1453 L'Homme Armé mass. There comes a moment in the credo where the brass instruments are so loud they pretty well overwhelm the singing. A similar thing possibly happens in the Agnus Dei. The effect is grand, brassy,  and using instruments for this reason is,  I think, probably not  unjustifiable historically for this particular mass. The problem, if there is one at all, is in the balance of voices and instruments. But the parts where the brass is arguably too intrusive are brief, and I'd say it's curmudgeonly to berate the recording too severely on those grounds. There are things  to enjoy here, at least if you like their way of making sounds with their voices, the way they attack the notes and form the vowels  (I do), and you're not desperate for more prominent lower voices (I'm not.)

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Maletto Dufay L'Homme Armé, again. I've been listening to the credo on and off all day. What's interesting is that the voices are small and the instruments are large, like the voices are almost chamber sized but then you get music for brass instruments along with them. It's very weird. I can't get out of my mind a friend's cutting remark that it sounds like a trumpet concerto.

I listened to Jeremy Summerly play the same music, just voices obviously but the effect is bigger, less room sized because of the way they sing forth, especially to was the end. I think that's right, I don't really feel confident that I've found the right concepts for the different approaches.

I also feel that Maletto's singers have a bit more individuality than Summerly's. And that there's a sense of urgency about Maletto, introverted urgency, Summerly more static and reflective, yet more extrovert - paradox and near oxymoron everywhere.

Anyway the truth is I am more and more intrigued by what Maletto does here. Truth is that both are interesting to me , complementary.

I'm wondering whether I want to hear Hilliard too, but the very thought of those Oxbridge vowels and David James's nasal voice dominating the proceedings,  is giving me the creeps. I'm sure they're exceptional at the level of interpretatio though, the problems are mine and only concern execution.

Quote from: Que on April 29, 2017, 11:02:04 PM

I agree on your liking of ... (but not Maletto...)

Quote from: king ubu on April 30, 2017, 12:09:35 AM
May I ask about this? I heard Cantica Symphonica recently with an Isaac programme and was mightily impressed. I knew their Isaac disc a little and have only now bought more of their releases (mostly Dufay), still have to start exploring them.

Sure!  :) I think you get a good impression from Mandryka's comments as to what deterred me from moving into Maletto's Dufay recordings 
The intrusive and inappropriately feeling instrumental accompaniment is for me a deal breaker in itself...
I also don't like the style of singing, which I also find too Italianate.

Mind you, things might be different with a later composer (with an Italian connection) like Isaac...

Q

Quote from: Que on May 01, 2017, 11:33:54 PM
I also don't like the style of singing, which I also find too Italianate.


Q

That sounds interesting, what do you mean? What's Italianate singing?

Quote from: Mandryka on May 02, 2017, 09:20:10 PM
That sounds interesting, what do you mean? What's Italianate singing?

Interesting question... ;) But hard to formulate a definition of the Italian style of singing, I guess it is the sum of small diferences....
The reason why Lassus by Odhecaton sounds very different from a performance by Singer Pur, of Desprez by De Labyrintho vs A Sei Voci.

But perhaps I blame my disliking of Maletto's individual  stylistic choices unduly on the singing being Italianate, who knowns...  8)

Q

Quote from: Que on May 03, 2017, 09:18:54 AM
Interesting question... ;) But hard to formulate a definition of the Italian style of singing, I guess it is the sum of small diferences....
The reason why Lassus by Odhecaton sounds very different from a performance by Singer Pur, of Desprez by De Labyrintho vs A Sei Voci.

But perhaps I blame my disliking of Maletto's individual  stylistic choices unduly on the singing being Italianate, who knowns...  8)

Q

Hmm, am I the only one, who can hear the influence of Landini (an Italian) in Dufay's works. Or is this only true about his secular music?

A quick note on these recordings, now I've had time to listen and digest them..

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I must have an unlucky hand lately,  because this set as well doesn't quite live up to my expectations after this ensemble's magnificent Desprez/ De Orto set.
Mandryka is right in his assessment that the (hyper) dynamic approach Jesse Rodin introduces here, doesn't quite work.
Paces are noticeably quicker with more emphasis is placed on musical development and effects, which leaves  less room (time) to "micro-dramatise" elements in the text.
Not necessarily a wrong angle and feel of the music is more abstract. But IMO Rodin overdoes it and the result is pushy and restless.... I feel the music isn't balanced and "centered" anymore, the listener is pulled from one musical effect to another.  The message of the music gets somewhat lost in the "excitement".... Overalll, there is still much to admire but it's a real pity that the end result falls short... ::)

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/dufay-les-messes-%C3%A0-teneur

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Jun/Dufay_masses_MEW1577.htm

http://www.classicalacarte.net/Production/Production_07_16/MEW157778_39_6_fanfare.htm

Q

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Pomerium Musices play Dufay's Missa Ancilla Domini. Fleet, lithe, small scale, non operatic, not specially sensual or visceral, singing with a strong sense of individual human beings participating rather than anonymous blend. Their way of forming sounds makes me wonder of Pomerium influenced Cappella Pratensis. The energetic forward motion of the performance, and the fact that it's presented without any propers, dates it a little. On the other hand, the blunt presentation of Dufay's mass settings like this does bring out the coherence of the ordinaries very effectively - the price you pay for this is a certain lack of variety in the experience of listening. 

I think that it is a lovely recording and probably merits its quasi-cult status, not least because of its suppleness and gracefulness, even if the speed of it suugests glibness. But I'll be holding on to Veillard's recording for a while I think, whose sensual, liturgical, reflective performance I like a lot. Anyone who would like the music files can contact me privately.

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I want to recommend this presentation of L'Homme Armé mass by Les Jeunes Solistes, a small male voice ensemble.

Small forces (2 on a part I think), voices only; quite intimate - it doesn't sound like music for a grand occasion like a coronation or anything like that; a great sense of moving the music forward; the timbres of each voice very clear - so not blended, well balanced - certainly not dominated by higher voices; a friend of mine tells me that all the accidentals in the score are applied, with no additional musica ficta. This is a frequently recorded mass, and I think I've heard them all; this and Oxford Camerata are my favourites, and the two complement each other in an interesting way.

The mass is presented with music by Thierry Pécou. There are short and anodine pieces which provide "interludes" to the mass movements, and a much more interesting Homme Armé cantata at the end.

I've had the recording for years, its on Spotify now.

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The first thing to say about this release from Gothic Voices is that it's very good. It's a good concert of good songs, I found myself unable to stop listening to it, all of it, and usually I have a shorter attention span. Of course part of it is that I was in the mood, and it's a while since I listened to this music so it sounded fresh and like revisiting an old friend. And part of it is maybe that their choice of songs is particularly accessible. But I'm sure the interpretations have something to do with it too.

Claire Wilkinson has a voice which is my sort of thing, and for me makes a magnificent contribution here - all the singing is up my alley,  and in the isorhythmic numbers they sing as a team.

Gone are the old days of Gothic Voices using vocalise for untexted music in songs, now they use instruments. I'm fine about that. I'd also say that they're just a smidgen more relaxed than they were, a smidgen more sensual, a lot more visceral. I'm fine about that too.

One of the most striking things about the recording is the sound quality, it's really fabulous, holographic.

There was a magic to some of the older recordings, I'd catch myself just amazed at the intensity of it, and the inwardness and sense of meaning. That hasn't happened to me here yet. It's a performance here, more than an expression of something felt. But this is all subjective and I don't want to draw any conclusions about quality.

One particularly interesting thing to do is compare their two versions of  Je requier à tous amoureux, one here and one on The Medieval Romantics. The one here is with harp, the other is with the untexted voice given over to vocalise. One is more intense and driven, the other more intimate and languid. One is more interesting contrapuntally, the other more interesting melodically.  I refuse to rank these performances. Refuse. 

The booklet is not very inspiring. We have the text translated and a journalistic essay describing the CDs concept - an imaginary wedding.

There used to be very little Dufay by Gothic Voices on record: je ne dors on The Castle of Fair Welcome, Je requier à tous amoureux and Las que je ferai? on The Medieval Romantics; Quel front signorille in paradiso on A Song for Francesca; J'attendrai tant qu'il vous plaira, mon cœur me fait tout dit penser and les bons vins de lanay on The Garden of Zephyrus. So it's very nice to have this CD.

QuoteClaire Wilkinson has a voice which is my sort of thing

Mine too.  I also have her singing the "Pie Jesu" in the Durufle Requiem which is one of the best performances I have heard.

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A interesting recording of the 4 part isorhytmic motet Nuper Rosarum Flores by a group called The Song Company, specially recorded for this project (which is exploring the impact of buildings on what music sounds like) The music was written for the  consecration of the Florence cathedral, so is genuinely site specific. Recorded in Australia unfortunately.

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This recording contains no less that five renditions of one song, Ce jour de l'an -- it's about how someone wishes to have a good year so that, on New Year's Day, he can be smiley. Just maybe the progression of these interpretations on the CD is a metaphor for how Gothic Voices' style is changing. Or maybe I've gone medieval and I'm seeing allegory everywhere.

The first is a single man's voice unaccompanied, just like they might have done under Christopher Page years ago. The second is a tender, expressive and languid transcription for a bowed instrument, which straight away makes you realise that it's a crying shame not to play more early music transcriptions on bowed instruments. The third is a cheerful and almost polyphonic transcription for harp. Yes, we've moved away from monophony. The fourth is is for ensemble without voice -- it's got a strong pulse and you could imagine it as being a used for dancing.

And then the crowning glory -- a setting for two contrasting voices and a whole range of exotic sounding instruments, a performance which, if I heard it blind, I would have said had René Clemencic at the helm!

How do Gothic Voices now compare with Gothic Voices under Christopher Page? The answer is complex I think. Let's see how they do in Dufay.

They recorded three songs by Dufay on two recordings -- in 1991 under Christopher Page in The Medieval Romantics, and without his guidance in 2018 in The Dufay Spectacle

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Je requier a tous amoureux is about a someone who's pretty annoyed because her lover won't call her "my love." In 1991 they rip through the song in a rigid way, the sole expressive embellishment is dynamic change; in 2018 it is much more fluid and tender, the modal rhythms are hardly palpable at all. It's interesting compare the two versions in this pair lines, where the lady expresses her plight

QuoteA ce jour de l'an gracieux
Me treuve de celle partye

In 1991 they accompany with vocalise, in 2018 they use some sort of plucked sounding thing. Which is better? Well the 1991 has the potential to be better I think, if some sort of rapport could be created with the vocalise and the poem. But no, it's just rather intrusive IMO, with no poetic/ rhetorical advantage as far as I can see.


Las, que [feray? ne que je devenray? is a poignant tale of an abandoned unconsoled lover. In 2018 it's sung wonderfully expressively with vocalise. In 1991 we get a rather trivial transcription for harp, what's the point of that?

Quel fronte signorille in paradiso is a poem in praise of the beloved's noble forehead and eyes, ending with the rather nice sentiment that the sweet harmony of her eyes will make both their hearts rise to heaven

The 1991 is fluid and expressive.  It's crowing -- it's a lover bragging about his beloved's beauty though, and that may not be the best way.  And I feel a bit let down by the final "Pian pian in suso vano in paradiso."

What do we get in 2018? A transcription for plucked instrument! A good transcription, beautifully and languidly praised played -- this transcription isn't at all boastful, it's like the sort of thing a lover may whisper to his partner when lying together post coitus. The instruments in 2018 are at least as expressive as the voices in 1991 -- maybe more so. The final instrumental "Pian pian in suso vano in paradiso" in 2018 is extraordinary -- too sweet? I think that would be harsh myself.

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I used to love this and its still good.

I think that using female singers helps to separate the voices.

Rogers Covey-Crump's essay Tuning Dufay

QuoteTUNING DUFAY


If you have succeeded in absorbing my essays which accompanied the first three Hilliard Live issues then much of this final chapter re-covers old ground. If you have not read the first three chapters or you remain baffled then once more I will try to elucidate.

Western art music uses a scale of pitches that derives directly from the teachings of Pythagoras. The so-called Pythagorean scale is composed of twelve notes that produce perfectly in tune (Just) octaves, fifths, fourths and major seconds and these intervals are composed of vibration frequencies that have simple whole number ratios. The octave is defined by the ratio 2:1, fifth 3:2, fourth 4:3 and second 9:8. In this scale all other intervals are impure (out of tune) and defined by complex ratios of vibration frequencies. The interval between two pitches is only perceived by a trained ear as "in tune" when the constituent pitches match adja-cent or closely related members of the Overtone (Harmonic) series. These pitches all occur within the first 16 overtones of a fundamental note save the 19:16 minor third and the chromatic semitone which is the interval between the 24th and the 25th overtone (25:24). Note that the generally accepted Just minor third is the wider 6:5 interval.
The history of fixed (keyboard) Western tuning systems is the movement away from Pythagoras towards systems that produced more intervals that were closer to pure, in particular the major third, and then, ironically, back towards a system that ultimately became the international standard point of reference, i.e. Equal Temperament in which the only absolutely in-tune, pure interval is the octave. The only advantage of Equal Temperament is that all keys are equally out of tune.

Practical experience and analysis of a cape//a singing has convinced me that expe-rienced amateur and professional singers tend towards Just (Pure) Intonation, particularly as the size of the ensemble approaches one voice to a part and this is the medium that I am concerned with in this discussion.
Three notes of the diatonic Just scale depart from Pythagoras by the same tiny interval known as the Syntonic Comma (ratio 81:801. For newcomers or as a refresher here is the scale; the pitches with a zero subscript are in their Pythagorean "slot" and the pitches with a minus-one subscript are lower than their Pythagorean slot by one syntonic comma in order to achieve Just major thirds C-E, F-A, G-B and minor thirds E-G and A-C. Note that D-F remains a narrow minor third:

Co Do E_1 Fo Go A_1 B_1 Co
This diatonic (white-note) scale has the advantage of perfectly tuned triads on C, E, F, G and A. To expand the available triads using black-notes we can introduce varieties of F#, C#, G#, Bb and Eb. If F# is a comma flat and C# and G# two commas flat on Pythagorean and the two flats, BL, and EL,, are a comma higher, the complete Just scale could look like this:

Co C#_2 Do E6+1 E_1 Fo F#_1 Go G#_2 A_1 BI,±1 9_1 (Co)

This increases the number of good triads but it does not solve the problem of the imperfect fifth above D. To achieve an A a perfect fifth above D we would need another version of A, an Ao. And so on...

During the fifteenth century, by the end of which keyboards were fully chromatic, a system was developed that produced eight Just (perfectly tuned) major thirds and eight slightly narrow minor thirds. The cost of this was the impurity involved in narrowing the fifths by a quarter of a comma. This was the Quarter-comma Mean Tone system. As a fixed tuning it matches Just tuning more closely than any other system and is without doubt the sound that composers lived with from the 1450s until the late 17th century.

Unaccompanied voices have probably always tended towards Just tuning since pitch is not fixed for a singer and a chord is only perceived as "in tune" if it is without the roughness of impurity. In theory a singer has the chance to tune every chord perfectly but in practice this will only happen if each note of the scale has a stability of pitch within a given context such as a movement from a Mass setting. My previous articles refer to notes having different "slots" according to context. One common and generally unconscious dilemma is the tuning of A above D or D below A. Context will normally make one pitch dominant so that the other voice tunes to the dominant pitch. Thus A can be Ao above (or below) Do, or A_1 above (or below) D_1. Clearly a flat A can push the Do down towards D_1. Lack of aware-ness in this situation can destabilise the ambient pitch. A fifth where the sub-scripts are mismatched is out of tune. A major third must be a comma narrower than a match and a minor third a comma wider. Matching of subscripts indicates a Pythagorean interval and only octaves, fifths, fourths and 9:8 major seconds are both Pythagorean and Just, whereas sixths, thirds and minor seconds need the comma adjustment. Sevenths are another problem.

To take a musical context the third Agnus of the Missa Se la face ay pale will do just fine since it fits the simple Just "white note" scale with just one accidental, the BL, (Bi,+1). However there is a problem harmony where the notes D, F, and B occur simultaneously in the vertical (harmonic) sense. F to B is in isolation always a dissonance and Do to Fo is the narrow Pythagorean minor third but much easier on the ear than the wide Pythagorean major third (Ditone) since it is very close to a naturally occurring minor third between the 19th and 16th overtones. The funda-mental frequency of a D and an F in this relationship is a D and the interval is also very close to a modern Equal Temperament minor third. Another factor in favour or the Fo above Do rather than F+1 is that Fo accommodates readily in our ears to a seventh above Go. The Just tuning of a dominant seventh (such as G-B-D-F) de-mands an F more than a comma lower than Fo and this version of F is only truly consonant with a B_1. This harmony becomes progressively more significant through the 1 5th and 16th centuries and essential in Barbershop singing. Dufay only uses a harmony on the fifth D-A at one point in this movement, viz. the last crotchet of bar 16 and the first minim's worth of bar 17 in the printed example. So although D, B and F combine in bars 2, 4, and 12, only the A at the point just referred to, in the Tenor 2 (third stave down), has to be treated as an Ao rather than the ambient A_1.

[Example from the opeing bars of the Agnus Dei of M. Se La Face ay pale]

Much of the beauty of this Mass resides in the intense major key feel that in turn derives from the ballade melody's strong C-E-G triad. Since we always perform this Mass a whole tone lower to fit our voice ranges the alert listener will spot that we are in B flat major.

Dufay, born a century after Machaut, is already light-years ahead of the medieval master in his frequent use of the major mode and much English music from the mid-fifteenth century fits a trend away from the minor modes. It has been sug-gested that the Contenance Angloise noted by the Continentals was characterised by the full triads and the possibility of Just tuning that the harmonic framework increasingly adopted by English composers allowed. An ensemble's tendency to-wards Just tuning in a capella performance enhances the sonority of the texture because experienced singers are confident of the right placing of a pitch: no ac-commodation to the compromise of a tempered keyboard is necessary as the range of both major and minor triads is all within the white-note scale. The devel-opment of harmony after the fifteenth century naturally complicated matters but as a unifying system Mean Tone tuning could accommodate almost all the chro-matic excesses even of a bold experimenter such as Gesualdo. For a time har-monic structure minimised the D-A problem or its transposed equivalent by avoid-ing triads on D and Dufay tends to do so here. It can be shown that English music recognised the consonant possibility of the major third a generation or two before continental composers and Dufay was perhaps the first notable European com-poser to take up some of the stylistic innovations of an English composer, in the shape of John Dunstable, and the latter's disciples Frye and Plummer.

Rogers Covey-Crump

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Bjorn Schmelzer's experiment in singing Dufay's Lamentatio sanctae matris ecclesiae Constantinopolitanae stands out from the crowd, for interesting reasons.

First, he takes his time, challenging  the early HIP idea that C15 motets are about rigid rhythms being tossed around and modified in a jaunty and exciting way -- Schmelzer is fluid and expressive and slow, and is like the ondulations of water caressed by the gentle breeze, or maybe the breath of God.  He doesn't so much make it dance as make it slink.

His is the only a cappella performance I've found apart from Capilla Flamenca's -- who sing it jauntily. One of the consequences of a cappella is that the harmonies are brought to your attention a bit more clearly, you don't have a contrasting instrumental timbre  to draw your attention to the independence of the voices at the expense of the chords. But the harmony in Schmelzer's is SO different from Capilla Flamenca's, presumably because of the way that the singers are harmonising, the way they're using enharmonic differences and microtones and possibly semitones to create.

And thirdly he uses every trick in the book to micromanage the expressiveness of the singing. It's not that the others are cold, it's rather that Graindelavoix is much much more in tune with the poem's meaning. Listen to the wobble in the voice on the word esplorée (weeping) in

QuotePere du filz dont suis mere esplorée

Listen to the way the dissonances express the emotion of

QuoteQui ont souffert telle durté villaine
Faire à mon filz, qui tant m'a hounourée.

This is a madrigalesque performance. 

When I heard him Dufay in concert, without following the text, it was too much, too intense for me, but maybe that's my own limitation, and what he did must have been interesting enough to make me go back to it today.  Graindelavoix are making Dufay into a composer who really challenges the audiences readiness to feel. I'm inclined to believe that that's exactly what we need to make Dufay our contemporary, to make Dufay matter.

Quote from: Mandryka on December 24, 2018, 06:46:39 AM
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His is the only a cappella performance I've found apart from Capilla Flamenca's -- who sing it jauntily. One of the consequences of a cappella is that the harmonies are brought to your attention a bit more clearly, you don't have a contrasting instrumental timbre  to draw your attention to the independence of the voices at the expense of the chords. But the harmony in Schmelzer's is SO different from Capilla Flamenca's, presumably because of the way that the singers are harmonising, the way they're using enharmonic differences and microtones and possibly semitones to create.

Love that Capilla Flamenca recording!  :)

Lena Susanne Norin, I love your voice ! 
12 Dufay's numbers , 5 Binchois' and some other things.
Track 18 "Segnor Leon" particularly strikes me. 
 

Quote from: Vinbrulé on February 18, 2019, 08:26:56 AM
Lena Susanne Norin, I love your voice ! 
12 Dufay's numbers , 5 Binchois' and some other things.
Track 18 "Segnor Leon" particularly strikes me. 

Yes, very good! Not just the tone and the way she projects, she's good with the diction too.

Prompted by a reviewer named "Gio" on Amazon , I have ordered this Dufay compilation.  Must say I agree with Gio in every respect.
This is a totally convincing proposal of hits, plus a keyboard piece by Conrad Paumann.
I was acquainted with the Ciconia CD of Diabolus in Musica, so I'm not surprised to find them singing Dufay state-of-the-art  (IMO)
To be put alongside the beautiful  'The Dufay Spectacle'  of Gothic Voices.  This music makes me happy  :)

Quote from: Vinbrulé on February 28, 2019, 08:49:29 AM
Prompted by a reviewer named "Gio" on Amazon , I have ordered this Dufay compilation.  Must say I agree with Gio in every respect.
This is a totally convincing proposal of hits, plus a keyboard piece by Conrad Paumann.
I was acquainted with the Ciconia CD of Diabolus in Musica, so I'm not surprised to find them singing Dufay state-of-the-art  (IMO)
To be put alongside the beautiful  'The Dufay Spectacle'  of Gothic Voices.  This music makes me happy  :)

It's strange to see the review by Maddy Evil on amazon for that CD, just because her attitude is so doctrinaire, Her remark

Quote from: Maddy Evil here https://www.amazon.com/Dufay-Diabolus-Musica-Antoine-Guerber/dp/B001FTGWLG/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=diabolus+dufay&qid=1551380958&s=gateway&sr=8-2the consensus of most of today's preeminent medieval music specialists, who have provided compelling evidence and arguments in favour of "a cappella" (unaccompanied voices) performances as being the norm.

isn't correct as far as I know. In 2010 she bemoaned the fact that

Quotethe "voices + instruments" stranglehold remains so persistent that even a predominantly vocal group feels the need to orchestrate this music.

Things haven't changed much after nine years, I'm probably missing something but I can only find a handful of songs from Gothic Voices and a couple of things from Orlando Consort (one religious, so maybe it doesn't count!), some things from Hilliard (sweet love, sweet hope) and some of the things from Medieval Ensemble of London - all Brits. You have to wonder why.


As far as the recording itself goes, I don't find myself particularly enjoying the voices there, without finding them offensive -- but voices are like sexual partners, who can say why we like what we like?

"Maddy Evil"  is another person , I have read (and followed) some review of this "Gio" ( I think he's Italian ) and feel all in all in tune with him.
To be honest the CD The Dufay Spectacle offers more variety of mood and sound , sacred and secular pieces + some instrumental , and there is a sort of crescendo as the program goes on ( the final item is gorgeous ) .  But I like very much the DiM compilation as well.  Perhaps a bit too intimate and languid. Still I have greatly enjoyed it.

You should come and hear Diabolus in Musica sing a Dufay mass in Musée de Cluny in Paris in a couple of weeks.

I live near Bologna, I can't come to Paris.  But I forced myself in a three-day-full-immersion in the recordinds of DiM :
a) Messe de Notre Dame - Machaut
b) Honi soit qui mal y pense  ( anthology of medieval english music ..... very very good !! )
c) last but not least ... Messe Se la face ay pale - Dufay
Result :  I have become a fan of this wonderful group ( in spite of their "Diabolic" name  :)  )

That recording of English music really does capture what they sound like very well, at least what they sounded like when I heard them sing Ockeghem last year. Loud and proud. Assertive.

Honi soit qui mal y pense :  Unfortunately I bought this CD used and it has arrived without the booklet !!  Anyway , wholly enjoyed it .  Now I MUST search for other discs from DiM    :D :D :D

Quote from: Vinbrulé on March 06, 2019, 04:49:08 AM
Honi soit qui mal y pense

LOL. Shame on me.

Two CD set from David Munrow, the first disc being devoted mainly to Machaut, the second to Dufay and Binchois. 
I find "Vergine bella" of  Dufay performed by a countertenor (perhaps James Bowman) absolutely enchanting. But it is the tenor voice that puzzled me initially , it reminded me of Anton Dermota ( Dalla sua pace/la mia dipende :) ) with at times an exaggerated vibrato. A second listening had me put aside reserves and resentments .  Beautiful box.

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/158/MI0001158869.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Does anyone know who wrote the propers on this mass recording? I'd also be interested to know the singers in the line up, I think they sound very good here, their distinctive low bass is kept in a leash, or the engineers have processed the sound. They also sing rather expressively.

Quote from: Mandryka on April 17, 2019, 03:05:20 AM
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/158/MI0001158869.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Does anyone know who wrote the propers on this mass recording?

The propers of any sung Mass are certain Scriptural texts, besides the readings, that are prescribed in the Church's official song book, the Graduale Romanum - i.e., anonymous chant.

Quote from: San Antone on April 17, 2019, 03:38:30 AM
The propers of any sung Mass are certain Scriptural texts, besides the readings, that are prescribed in the Church's official song book, the Graduale Romanum - i.e., anonymous chant.

Did Dufay write any plainsong?

Answer, yes, there's some here

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6lzcOLB6lCs/WcLqMl4v5lI/AAAAAAAAANY/hvdngQkIOQwEGTOVw4MjCWDEYraXsjZLACEwYBhgL/s1600/VirginTemple-Pomerium-back.jpg)

But you're saying not the examples in the ordinarium of that recording.

(By the way it looks like Schola Hungarica have recorded a lot of Dufay's chant, I have hardly heard any of it. )

Quote from: Mandryka on April 17, 2019, 03:51:50 AM
Did Dufay write any plainsong?

Answer, yes, there's some here

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6lzcOLB6lCs/WcLqMl4v5lI/AAAAAAAAANY/hvdngQkIOQwEGTOVw4MjCWDEYraXsjZLACEwYBhgL/s1600/VirginTemple-Pomerium-back.jpg)

But you're saying not the examples in the ordinarium of that recording.

(By the way it looks like Schola Hungarica have recorded a lot of Dufay's chant, I have hardly heard any of it. )

I am confused.  You post a CD of Dufay motets and assume he wrote the plainchant?  The chant used in sacred music of his period was anonymous collected from a tradition dating back several hundred years.  Composers had no reason to write new chant, and further, it would have been rejected in any event since the cathedral used untrained singers (who were not good enough to sing the newly composed polyphony but) who had mastered the chant sections which were a closed system of melodies.

What Dufay did write were additional melodies, two parts usually, added to a chant melody which has been called fauxbourdon.

Quote from: San Antone on April 17, 2019, 04:13:04 AM
I am confused.  You post a CD of Dufay motets and assume he wrote the plainchant?  The chant used in sacred music of his period was anonymous collected from a tradition dating back several hundred years.  Composers had no reason to write new chant, and further, it would have been rejected in any event since the cathedral used untrained singers (who were not good enough to sing the newly composed polyphony but) who had mastered the chant sections which were a closed system of melodies.

What Dufay did write were additional melodies, two parts usually, added to a chant melody which has been called fauxbourdon.

Ah he added his own fauxbourdons. And on that Guerber CD with the mass, do the ordinaries have fauxbourdons or other augmentations of older plainsong written by Du Fay? If someone's got the booklet it'll probably say.

Quote from: San Antone on April 17, 2019, 04:13:04 AM
  The chant used in sacred music of his period was anonymous collected from a tradition dating back several hundred years.  Composers had no reason to write new chant, and further, it would have been rejected in any event since the cathedral used untrained singers (who were not good enough to sing the newly composed polyphony but) who had mastered the chant sections which were a closed system of melodies.

You may be interested in Alexander Blanchy's notes here

QuoteWith rare exceptions the music of plainchant comes down through the ages anonymously. It was all the more astonishing, therefore, when Barbara Haggh first announced in 1985 that she had identified numerous items of plainchant not only written by a known composer but by Guillaume Du Fay, the leading polyphonist of the 15th century. Du Fay's authorship of the chant had gone unrecognized until then because the Recollectio music appears in chant books, along with the other liturgical chant for the Church year, without composer attribution. The documents Haggh has brought to light, however, leave no doubt that the music for the Recollectio is by the composer of Nuper rosarum fibres and Ecclesie militantis.

The pertinent facts are these: In 1457 Michael de Beringhen, a canon of Cambrai Cathedral, asked Gilles Carlier, dean of the Cathedral, to provide texts for a new feast for which he would bequeath the endowment (the money necessary to pay for its composition and performance). Memorializing the six Marian feasts already celebrated at Cam-brai (Mary's Conception, Nativity, Annunciation, Visitation, Purification and Assumption), the Recollectio would raise the number to seven, a traditional Marian number. De Beringhen chose Du Fay to compose the music. Fifty days after he first brought the texts to Du Fay, then in Savoy, a mes-senger named Guillaume Pannet returned to Cam-brai with Du Fay's newly composed plainchant for Vespers I, Matins, Lauds, Vespers II and probably the Mass. As Haggh has written: "The Recollectio was then copied into the liturgical books of the Cathedral by several scribes, including Simon Mellet, who added the feast to 27 books. On the fourth Sunday in August of 1458, the year following De Beringhen's decease, the new chant by Du Fay was heard for the first time in the Cathedral, sung by the canons, grandes vicaires, chaplains, and at least eight petits vicaires grouped into left and right choirs, and by the altarboys with their maitre de chant. These events were recorded in the accounts made by De Beringhen's executors."


Alexander Blachly

I want to recommend this CD very enthusiastically, at least my impression is that it is well worth exploring.

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ff068c8327cf799e03e79647b3ba833d6a3b83ae)

Quote from: San Antone on April 17, 2019, 04:13:04 AM
I am confused.  You post a CD of Dufay motets and assume he wrote the plainchant? 

The Recollectio recording contains a monophonic graduel and an Alleluia, mass settings, which the mass which Barbara Haggh attributes to Dufay. I haven't yet checked whether these are used on Antoine Guerber's Dufay mass recording, or in the concert I saw on Monday.

Quote from: San Antone on April 17, 2019, 04:13:04 AM
What Dufay did write were additional melodies, two parts usually, added to a chant melody which has been called fauxbourdon.

He did write fauxbourdons. I think the Recollectio contains much music by him which is not polyphonic. But this is an new area for me and I may be wrong to think that he left a good deal of chant which is mono- or hetero- phonic.

Quote from: San Antone on April 17, 2019, 04:13:04 AM
[n]ew chant, . . .  would have been rejected in any event since the cathedral used untrained singers . . .  who had mastered the chant sections which were a closed system of melodies.

And by implication weren't up to new ones. Do you have evidence for that, or was it speculation?

Quote from: Mandryka on April 17, 2019, 08:47:13 AM
You may be interested in Alexander Blanchy's notes here

He did write fauxbourdons. I think the Recollectio contains much music by him which is not polyphonic. But this is an new area for me and I may be wrong to think that he left a good deal of chant which is mono- or hetero- phonic.

Interesting note about Haggh's discovery.  Something I had not heard of before. 

QuoteAnd by implication weren't up to new ones. Do you have evidence for that, or was it speculation?

Speculation based on all of my reading about how Medieval/Renaissance vocal ensembles were constructed: a few professionals to sing the polyphony and the rest amateurs to sing the monophonic chant and other simpler music.

(https://p2-ssl.vatera.hu/photos/a8/1c/schola-hungarica-delectamentum-cd-uj-ca2a_2_big.jpg?v2)


Very good things by Dufay here, sung by Schola Hungarica: a Sanctus/Ave Verum Corpus, a Pange Lingue and a real surprise for me, a long sequence. All polyphonic!

Only the Ave Verum Corpus was familir to me: there is a sweet, sensual, seductive performance on record from Blue Heron, and a lovely one from Cantica Symphonia here

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Od42YHjNL.jpg)

Quote from: San Antone on April 17, 2019, 09:02:04 AM


Speculation based on all of my reading about how Medieval/Renaissance vocal ensembles were constructed: a few professionals to sing the polyphony and the rest amateurs to sing the monophonic chant and other simpler music.

Oh yes sure, but it was the idea that they would have rejected new chant which caught my attention . . . I wondered if you had any examples to support that.

Quote from: Mandryka on April 17, 2019, 11:48:25 PM
Oh yes sure, but it was the idea that they would have rejected new chant which caught my attention . . . I wondered if you had any examples to support that.

I don't; since I was not aware of any evidence that Dufay or any Medieval/Renaissance composer had supplied newly composed chant, I did not look for any evidence.  However, the church and all its institutions, i.e. cathedral singing schools, were so conservative and slow to accept change, I simply extrapolated to the idea that a composer bringing new plainchant would have a hard time getting the non-professional singers to learn new melodies for texts for which they already knew dozens of traditional melodies.  It would have begged the question, "why?"

If I can find J.F. Weber's email I will ask him.  He is the foremost authority on chant I know, and has been open to answering my questions in the past.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Od42YHjNL.jpg)

They've found a really distinctive way of presenting Dufay I'd say, a singing style which to me to straddle gothic and renaissance - some of the angularity and complexity in the voicing that you might expect with Ciconia, but more emphasis on refinement and beauty of sound.  I also listened to some of Blue Heron's recording, and the tracks I heard seemed to me to locate Dufay's music firmly in the renaissance - lyrical and smooth, well balanced.

I've not had a chance to look at what we know about the skills and training of chant choirs in Dufay's time, what sort of training they got etc. I'll try to make time soon.

Quote from: San Antone on April 18, 2019, 12:12:25 AM
I don't; since I was not aware of any evidence that Dufay or any Medieval/Renaissance composer had supplied newly composed chant, I did not look for any evidence.  However, the church and all its institutions, i.e. cathedral singing schools, were so conservative and slow to accept change, I simply extrapolated to the idea that a composer bringing new plainchant would have a hard time getting the non-professional singers to learn new melodies for texts for which they already knew dozens of traditional melodies.  It would have begged the question, "why?"

If I can find J.F. Weber's email I will ask him.  He is the foremost authority on chant I know, and has been open to answering my questions in the past.

I just note briefly something I forgot yesterday.

Everyone knows that Dufay asked that his own antiphon Ave Regina Celorum be sung on his deathbead, and he was specific about who should sing it -- he specified "the alter boys with their master and two other men. " I guess a few kids sang the discantus and the adults sang the lower voices OVPP.

Anyway we can conclude that in Cambrai at least there were choir boys skilled enough to sing polyphonic music.

Quote from: Mandryka on April 19, 2019, 02:16:42 AM
I just note briefly something I forgot yesterday.

Everyone knows that Dufay asked that his own antiphon Ave Regina Celorum be sung on his deathbead, and he was specific about who should sing it -- he specified "the alter boys with their master and two other men. " I guess a few kids sang the discantus and the adults sang the lower voices OVPP.

Anyway we can conclude that in Cambrai at least there were choir boys skilled enough to sing polyphonic music.

However, it was a request that was unable to be fulfilled in time.

(http://www.clicmusique.com/covers/back/0034571282367.jpg)

Apart from this Dufay only CD, I recall only three secular songs on record from The Orlando Consort, viz

An "Ave regina" on the CD Scattered Rhymes
"Ce jour de l'an" on the CD A Medieval Christmas
"Adieux ces bons vins de Lanoy" on the CD Food, Wine and Song.

The new CD, subtitled Lament for Constantinople and other songs, contains  I think the only examples of Dufay with their current lineup, i.e. with Matthew Venner (alto) and Mark Dobell (tenor)

Orlando Consort have decided to sing the songs without any instruments, frequently using long melismas on vowels and possibly other types of vocalise for untexted music. The result sounds rich and complex, and I would say more strange and exotic than older treatments like The Medieval Ensemble of London. who sound almost naively folkloric in comparison sometimes (eg in "Ma belle damme je vous pri", which Orlando make sound close to ars subtilior). Orlando often sing in a slow sensual way, maybe the tempos are the result of their experiments with a cappella performance.

The tenor and alto are often quite dominant in the blend of the ensemble, especially the alto. But they are well recorded and it's pleasant to hear them, especially Mark Dobell.

Very few other ensembles have treated this secular music a cappella on record: Hilliard certainly, and some things from Gothic Voices including their Dufay Spectacle CD, Graindelavoix in concert but so far not on a commercial release, there may be others which I'm forgetting. I suppose we can say that it's becoming clearer that the results are interesting.

By the way, let me recommend enthusiastically their "Adieux ces bons vins de Lanoy" on Food, Wine and Song.

Is that the new release on Hyperion?  (I, for one, would prefer if you posted the front covers so it would be easier to identify the recording).  If so, I am planning on getting it.  I consider the Orlando Consort one of the more historically informed groups. For many years they worked closely with a musicologist, especially on their earlier recordings - all of which made for idiomatic performances.

This one has booklet notes by David Fallows though I'm not sure if his collaboration went beyond that. I know they want to give an interpretation which is at least consistent with what little we know about how Dufay would have expected his songs to have been performed. I don't know why they decided to sing the music a Cappella, or how they hit on their way of singing melismatic vocalise for music without texts, or how their ideas about attack and volume and speed and harmonies in cross relations etc.  were obtained, and maybe most importantly, whether they really think that Dufay would in their opinion have been comfortable with the top lines of these songs being sung by a man with an alto voice, they don't reveal that sort of thing unfortunately.

This one .   I agree about the song 'Adieu ces bons vins de Lannoys'  on CD Food,wine & song :)

Listening again to the Orlando Consort Dufay CD, inspired by a comment made by a friend about their tuning, and indeed it does sometimes sound rather "meantone" when you look out for it - interesting to listen to the cadences in Je vous prie, by them and Gothic Voices (on The Dufay Spectacle) to bring this out, I think. See what you think. It's such a shame that they don't discuss these interpretative decisions in the booklet.

Apart from that I feel very much as I did when I commented here before three weeks ago. This time round I'm more impressed (and pleased) by Orlando's sensuality. And maybe more annoyed by one aspect of the sound recording, which is the way it brings forward the countertenor at the expense of some starry singing by Mark Dobell, sometimes it's like he's trying to break through the Venner sound to be heard. The other two are mostly secondary in the structures that Orlando build, I'd say.


But I think that in terms of imaging if not in terms of balance  the sound engineering is outstanding, and there's a huge amount that I find rewarding in the recording, so I'd say it's worth a listen,  if you have a decent hifi.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS7SlvfSA-TsWet1bvqqzLFH6HRIUjivZsx4zGVpKQ1otpMuB8WwA)

This recording of Missa Ave Regina Caelorum from Dominique Vellard with Cantus Figuratus came my way a few months ago, I've heard it three times I think. Liturgical a cappella performance of what is, I think, a magnificent cyclic mass setting, meditative. It's a rarity but well worth picking up if you see it. Sound is acceptable but as they say in French, pas terrible. That put me off a bit when it first arrived but I've learned to have more realistic expectations.

At the local record store, I am frequently seeing a Musical Heritage Society CD by David Munrow directing the Early Music Consort, the music is all Dufay. I always pick it up and then eventually pass up on it, usually justifying this by the fact that I hate MHS reissues. Has anyone heard it? Any good?

Edit: it's a MHS reissue of this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41tThWMMcEL.jpg)

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 29, 2019, 05:36:01 AM
Has anyone heard it? Any good?


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41tThWMMcEL.jpg)

You know it's on YouTube? You should check it out first because only you can say how you'll respond to James Bowman's voice. Munrow is an important figure in the post war reception history of medieval music, with an interesting and disturbing life story. He makes the mass sound like a grand occasion by helping the singers along with a bit of brass. The sound is not wonderful but perfectly listenable.

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 29, 2019, 05:36:01 AM
At the local record store, I am frequently seeing a Musical Heritage Society CD by David Munrow directing the Early Music Consort, the music is all Dufay. I always pick it up and then eventually pass up on it, usually justifying this by the fact that I hate MHS reissues. Has anyone heard it? Any good?

Edit: it's a MHS reissue of this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41tThWMMcEL.jpg)

Having reread your posting I realised I can't be of much use. The original issue was on LP in 1974 and I bought it ca. 1980. Listening to the LP I find it admirably clear but I have no idea how the CD remastering sounds. I haven't heard it for years and it brought back memories. How you find individual voices is very personal; I have no problems with James Bowman.

I have Munrow's Music of the Gothic Era on CD but it is a DG Archiv Blue reissue not MHS

Quote from: Mandryka on September 29, 2019, 06:28:42 AM
You know it's on YouTube? You should check it out first because only you can say how you'll respond to James Bowman's voice. Munrow is an important figure in the post war reception history of medieval music, with an interesting and disturbing life story. He makes the mass sound like a grand occasion by helping the singers along with a bit of brass. The sound is not wonderful but perfectly listenable.

Well, you've piqued my interest anyway. Going to find it on youtube. Probably end up buying the CD in any case. I think it's $2.

Edit: I read the overview of Munrow's life on wikipedia. Wow, you weren't kidding. If you're familiar with any further reading material, feel free to send it my way. I have a morbid fascination with doomed artists.

Missa se la face est pale has been recorded many times, I may even be missing some. It's based on a nice memorable tune. Some of these performances are really fabulous I think, they make it sound like very great music. Some are less successful.

Laudantes
Clemencic
Hilliard
Planchart
Diabolus in Musica
Cut Circle
Colegium Aurium
Cantica Symphonia
Binchois Consort
Munrow

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0Ey-QfmCV7c/VIiWwwaLyRI/AAAAAAAAK3c/PLx6DEuZS6E/s1600/GCD_P31907_front_HD.jpg)

This is an interesting performance of Dufay's Mass se la face est pale. It sounds both attractive and alien, the pitch makes the harmonies exciting to hear, and the soprano voices never dominate. Straight singing, humbly (rather than swaggeringly) projected. The tactus is slow enough to let the gestures have their effect. The brass brings splendour and a sense of thrill, without collapsing into bling.

(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571174747.png)

What makes the Dufay (?) mass very special for me is that it's set for a maximum of three parts. And that gives it a sort of stripped down beauty, as if something is being exposed, laid bear, rather than embellished. This feeling is in part due to their cappella small scale approach.


I got the recording out to listen to the Binchois, but in fact I got completely caught up in the mass, which is long - there are polyphonic propers as well as ordinaries. The music, by the way, is of uncertain attribution. It makes me think of the Ockeghem requiem.

The vocal range of the music seems high. They use altos. The style is intense, sometimes inward looking and sometimes more dramatic and brilliant than that suggests, and those contrasts are something I appreciate. The sound engineering is rather fine.

Well I got the Munrow CD. The performance is all superb. It includes a short Gloria, the chanson "Se la face ay pale" in several vocal and instrumental versions, and the mass that it spawned. Wow, this mass is absolutely beautiful. This may be the greatest recording of a Renaissance Mass that I've ever heard. The inclusion of subtle instrumental accompaniment is so powerful. The sound is reverberant and glorious. I think you're right, @Mandryka, that this performance makes it sound like very great music.

Definitely going to seek out more Dufay, and more of Munrow's recordings.

If you get in Dufay, the more I listen to it, the more I'm convinced that the one released this year by The Orlando Consort is interesting, because it's so incredibly introverted. No one else does the music in such a rapt way.

Over the past few weeks I've been revisiting all the secular Dufay and Ockeghem recordings I know. I mean, the songs, chansons. Though I must say that Anthony Abbot mass I mentioned here a couple of days ago, which may not in fact be by Dufay at all, has been a major distraction from this project because it's so wonderful, it has really caught my imagination for some reason.

Quote from: vers la flamme on October 04, 2019, 03:16:51 AM
Well I got the Munrow CD. The performance is all superb. It includes a short Gloria, the chanson "Se la face ay pale" in several vocal and instrumental versions, and the mass that it spawned. Wow, this mass is absolutely beautiful. This may be the greatest recording of a Renaissance Mass that I've ever heard. The inclusion of subtle instrumental accompaniment is so powerful. The sound is reverberant and glorious. I think you're right, @Mandryka, that this performance makes it sound like very great music.

Definitely going to seek out more Dufay, and more of Munrow's recordings.

It was the one disc that converted me to polyphony and the Flemish-Burgundian school over 40 years ago.

Quote from: Mandryka on October 04, 2019, 05:00:21 AM
If you get in Dufay, the more I listen to it, the more I'm convinced that the one released this year by The Orlando Consort is interesting, because it's so incredibly introverted. No one else does the music in such a rapt way.

That's not quite true, this is another very interior one I think -- and that despite the fact that they want to explore Dufay's connection to the theatre. It is very very good I think

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51iUzIICHYL._SY355_.jpg)

Quote from: The new erato on October 04, 2019, 06:47:08 AM
It was the one disc that converted me to polyphony and the Flemish-Burgundian school over 40 years ago.

That's amazing! I randomly found it at a record store. Glad I decided to go for it. Amazing music making, really.

@Mandryka, I'm not familiar enough with this music to know better – what do you mean by introverted, and what makes those recordings that way? Would you call this Munrow recording introverted or extroverted?

Quote from: vers la flamme on October 04, 2019, 11:42:40 AM

@Mandryka, I'm not familiar enough with this music to know better – what do you mean by introverted, and what makes those recordings that way? Would you call this Munrow recording introverted or extroverted?

Monrow'a recordings are rather extrovert. As he was in recitals (I have heard him live twice).

It is hard for me to listen to Munrow, or any early music recordings prior to 1978 1984 (when Andrew Parrott released his Machaut Messe, OVPP).  The performance style was crude, IMO, by comparison with what arrived with scholarship and recordings of a more recent vintage.

Quote from: vers la flamme on October 04, 2019, 11:42:40 AM
That's amazing! I randomly found it at a record store. Glad I decided to go for it. Amazing music making, really.

@Mandryka, I'm not familiar enough with this music to know better – what do you mean by introverted, and what makes those recordings that way? Would you call this Munrow recording introverted or extroverted?

It's partly to do with the way they project the sounds. See what you think of this.

Here's an interesting introverted performance of Vergine Bella from Russel Oberlin, it's as if he's sharing his feelings with an intimate friend, or with himself

https://www.youtube.com/v/Ms68D9Pn18Q

and here's one which seems more extrovert, as if she's demonstrating her feeling to a large audience

https://www.youtube.com/v/YMe7_wyHai4

It's the difference between the singer giving the impression of looking into themselves, like a soliloquy, or looking out to us, like in a speech.

Nothing wrong with Guerber.....

[asin]B00019EYQG[/asin]
Q

Quote from: Que on October 04, 2019, 01:16:24 PM
Nothing wrong with Guerber.....

[asin]B00019EYQG[/asin]
Q

I listened to it last week, I think it's very good.

Part of it with me is to do with tempo. I like the tempos of both Maletto and Guerber in this mass, and there was another, but I forget which, maybe Binchois Consort, which struck the right chord with me.  This is a personal thing of course, and I can imagine that many people want a more thrilling approach (Cut Circle is an example)

The more I listen to Dufay, the more I like Maletto/Cantica Symphonia. I like the way they project, I like the way they use instruments, I like the way they use male and female voices, I like the tempos.

Quote from: San Antone on October 04, 2019, 12:39:21 PM
It is hard for me to listen to Munrow, or any early music recordings prior to 1978 1984 (when Andrew Parrott released his Machaut Messe, OVPP).  The performance style was crude, IMO, by comparison with what arrived with scholarship and recordings of a more recent vintage.

I don't know as much about scholarship as you, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn my taste is on the crude side compared with yours, but there are many Dufay recordings which I really love which I think predate that, I may have got the dates wrong though.

The Davies Brothers songs
Pomerium Missa Ecce Ancilla Domini
Syntagma Musicum
Studio Der Fruhen Musick
Pro Cantione Antiqua.

Frankly, I'm not interested in the scholarship. If Munrow's recording is crude, then so am I.  :D

@Mandryka, between the two I much preferred the Russel Oberlin, I may be starting to see what you mean by introvert/extrovert. I wonder if the context of the performance has to do with this distinction. I imagine it's much harder to deliver an "introverted" performance in a live setting.

Quote from: Mandrykalink=topic=22169.msg1236543#msg1236543 date=1570223363
It's the difference between the singer giving the impression of looking into themselves, like a soliloquy, or looking out to us, like in a speech.

Petrarch's poem is not kind of introspection but is directly addressed to the beautiful virgin, so the extrovert approach may seem to be the most likely.

Quote from: (: premont :) on October 05, 2019, 04:35:35 AM
Petrarch's poem is not kind of introspection but is directly addressed to the beautiful virgin, so the extrovert approach may seem to be the most likely.

Virgin Mary I think, he's not trying to get her to sleep with him, he's engaged in intimate prayer.

Quote from: vers la flamme on October 05, 2019, 04:18:45 AM
Frankly, I'm not interested in the scholarship. If Munrow's recording is crude, then so am I.  :D

@Mandryka, between the two I much preferred the Russel Oberlin, I may be starting to see what you mean by introvert/extrovert. I wonder if the context of the performance has to do with this distinction. I imagine it's much harder to deliver an "introverted" performance in a live setting.

Yes, I bet even the singers of the second one prefer Oberlin!

Quote from: Mandryka on October 05, 2019, 04:52:41 AM
Virgin Mary I think, he's not trying to get her to sleep with him, he's engaged in intimate prayer.

Yes of course, but it is still addressed directly to her.

Vergin bella, che di sol vestita,
coronata di stelle, al sommo Sole
piacesti sí, che 'n te Sua luce ascose,
amor mi spinge a dir di te parole:
ma non so 'ncominciar senza tu' aita,
et di Colui ch'amando in te si pose.
Invoco lei che ben sempre rispose,
chi la chiamò con fede:
Vergine, s'a mercede
miseria extrema de l'humane cose
già mai ti volse, al mio prego t'inchina,
soccorri a la mia guerra,
bench'i' sia terra, et tu del ciel regina.


Lovely Virgin, who, clothed in glory,
crowned with stars, so pleased
the high Sun, that he hid his light in you,
love urges me to speak of you:
but I cannot begin without your help,
and His, who lovingly was set in you.
I call on her who always replies truly
to those who call to her with faith:
Virgin, if the final
misery of human life can forever
turn to you for mercy, bow down to hear my prayer,
and help me in this, my war,
though I am earth, and you the queen of heaven.

Quote from: Mandryka on October 05, 2019, 04:12:50 AM
I don't know as much about scholarship as you, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn my taste is on the crude side compared with yours, but there are many Dufay recordings which I really love which I think predate that, I may have got the dates wrong though.

The Davies Brothers songs
Pomerium Missa Ecce Ancilla Domini
Syntagma Musicum
Studio Der Fruhen Musick
Pro Cantione Antiqua.

I can not claim any scholarship, what knowledge I have has been gathered informally through reading a shelf of books, and some little correspondence with a handful of true scholars.  But I have not heard any of those recordings.  So I cannot confirm or deny their positive qualities, but can make some general comments.

From your list, I could venture to say that I would enjoy the Pro Cantione Antiqua recording since I have liked everything by them I've heard, mainly Palestrina.  All I can find on the Syntagma Musicum is a CD from 1998.  Was it issued as a LP earlier?  I've not been a fan of the Davies brothers, so would probably consider them an example of the kind of recording I would not enjoy.  Of the last two, Pomerium I have heard but do not have any memory, positive or negative, and I have not heard of or any recordings by Studio Der Fruhen Musick.

I first had written 1978, and then changed it to the  date of Parrott's recording of the Machaut Messe.  I probably have heard recordings from the mid to late '70s which were done tastefully and which I liked. I probably painted with too broad a brush.

8)

Quote from: vers la flamme on October 05, 2019, 04:18:45 AM
Frankly, I'm not interested in the scholarship. If Munrow's recording is crude, then so am I.  :D

I rely on my ears when considering a recording, not scholarship.  If you enjoy Munrow, then I would be loath to begrudge you any enjoyment.  For myself, there are many other recordings, mostly from the last 30 years, which I enjoy much more. 

Quote from: San Antone on October 05, 2019, 05:16:30 AM
I probably have heard recordings from the mid to late '70s which were done tastefully and which I liked. I probably painted with too broad a brush.

8)

Sure, that's clear. For me the interesting question is whether there's anything very early which is done with such grace that it's impossible for someone who loves life not to like it. Stafford Cape  , , ,


https://www.youtube.com/v/V_bRK2BMXZo

Quote from: Mandryka on October 05, 2019, 06:46:59 AM
Sure, that's clear. For me the interesting question is whether there's anything very early which is done with such grace that it's impossible for someone who loves life not to like it. Stafford Cape  , , ,

His Messe was the first to exhibit a few of the traits which were to become standard in the '80s and beyond, but there is still much I dislike, his use of instruments, e.g.. As far as I know his was the first to acknowledge the incorrect notion that the mass was written for the coronation of Charles V, and his interpretation reflected this knowledge.  Others who continued to suffer under that delusion are worse by the use of a choir, instead of a smaller vocal ensemble, and more robust use of instruments, brass especially. For me it is a combination of all those factors plus the audio quality of the earlier recordings from '50s which render them un-listenable to me.

This is not to say others might find beauty where I do not. 

I wrote this before I saw your video clip.  I listened to some of it, but could not enjoy it because of the female lead voice, too much vibrato, and the instruments on top of the vocal lines.  But it is OVPP, or at least sound like it, which is something.  There is also a harshness to the audio, maybe because it is a transfer from a LP.

This is an early Dufay one which I like very much -- if anyone has a transfer please let me have it, I'm not sure of the date.

https://www.youtube.com/v/ZH9kSScl8vU

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71BJK46kPLL._SY355_.jpg)


I've never explored Ensemble Unicorn's recordings before as far as I recall. There are some really nice performances of secular Du Fay here, the instrument fantasy on  Quel Fronte signorille  is bold and imaginative, Bernhard Landauer has a voice I can live with happily, and the way Ensemble Unicorn support his singing is never routine or boring.

Oh, there's an introspective and prayerful performance of Vergine Bella à la Oberlin, I bet he's an inspiration for it!

Quote from: Mandryka on October 06, 2019, 03:13:13 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71BJK46kPLL._SY355_.jpg)


I've never explored Ensemble Unicorn's recordings before as far as I recall. There are some really nice performances of secular Du Fay here, the instrument fantasy on  Quel Fronte signorille  is bold and imaginative, Bernhard Landauer has a voice I can live with happily, and the way Ensemble Unicorn support his singing is never routine or boring.

Oh, there's an introspective and prayerful performance of Vergine Bella à la Oberlin, I bet he's an inspiration for it!

Noted. That does look like a solid disc.

My admiration for Dufay grows, I think he is one of the most accessible composers of the early renaissance.

To veer off tangentially for a moment, why do so many people hate countertenors? I wonder if it has something to do with cultural ideas of masculinity.

Quote from: vers la flamme on October 06, 2019, 04:34:02 AM
Noted. That does look like a solid disc.

My admiration for Dufay grows, I think he is one of the most accessible composers of the early renaissance.

To veer off tangentially for a moment, why do so many people hate countertenors? I wonder if it has something to do with cultural ideas of masculinity.

In Andrew Parrott's book Composers' Intentions there's an appendix devoted to the perception of the falsetto as effeminate. This perception goes back to St Ambrose (c4), and continues through Boethius (c6), Alfred of Rielvaux (c12), Bernard of Clairvaux (c12) and on and on through to Jacques de Liege (c14)

It's not at all obvious that the falsetto voice was cultivated in medieval times. This is a big area of research and touches on lots of difficult questions: the pitch of the descant, the use of pre pubescent boys.

In ensemble singing I think countertenors can be hard to manage -- they can easily attract the ear at the expense of the other singers. This can be controlled I think, but even the most scrupulous ensembles have difficulty with it. I think it has been a problem with Matthew Vener in The Orlando Consort, though I sense from their most recent recordings (including the Dufay one)  that things are improving there. When I saw them in concert it became clear to me that the problem has as much to do with the (under)forcefulness of the lower voices as the (over)forcefulness of the uppers.

With voices, I've learned that people like what they like, there's often no rhyme or reason. Yes, there are some people who don't like countertenors, but there are some people who don't like sopranos and some who don't like bass singers! De gustibus non est disputandum.

There's a story about Alfed Deller. He was a hit in the USA and found himself at a high society party after a concert. A lady came up to him and said "Mr Deller, your voice is very high. Are you a eunuch?" To which he replied "Madame, I am not a eunuch but I am unique!"

Quote from: vers la flamme on October 06, 2019, 04:34:02 AM

My admiration for Dufay grows, I think he is one of the most accessible composers of the early renaissance.

You may like also Binchois, who was a friend of Dufay, and who wrote some good songs. If you can get access to this one it may be something you'll like

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71k8aCAVi9L._SS500_.jpg)

I've never heard of Binchois, I'll look out for him.

Interesting thoughts on countertenors. I'll admit that my assumption regarding the hatred of countertenors was spawned by the radical feminist in me.  ;D I have yet to see a Renaissance polyphony ensemble in concert, but I can easily picture balance being a problem, countertenors or not.

I just picked up this disc yesterday:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/4152D1AXQFL.jpg)

So far, so good.

Quote from: vers la flamme on October 07, 2019, 02:59:25 AM
I've never heard of Binchois, I'll look out for him.

Interesting thoughts on countertenors. I'll admit that my assumption regarding the hatred of countertenors was spawned by the radical feminist in me.  ;D I have yet to see a Renaissance polyphony ensemble in concert, but I can easily picture balance being a problem, countertenors or not.

I just picked up this disc yesterday:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/4152D1AXQFL.jpg)

So far, so good.

There's another recording of the mass on that Pomerium CD by The Binchois Consort, I just listened to both. You couldn't get more different approaches, one rather sweet and silky smooth,  blended almost to the point of flatness, the other full of ups and downs and asperities, sparse and rather incisive. I'm tempted to say that Alexander Blachly sees it as Renaissance music and Andrew Kirkman sees it as medieval music. I preferred  Kirkman this afternoon I have to say, but this probably betrays my current interest in the gothic.

(https://img.discogs.com/qlOLZcabcmJr7gwJQGJAFeiMQC8=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-14077908-1567429009-2580.jpeg.jpg)

Ah, interesting thoughts. I've heard others say that they see little difference between some of Dufay's music and that of his near contemporary Machaut, but from my limited listening experience I hear a big step forward from one to the other. And I love Machaut.

Quote from: vers la flamme on October 07, 2019, 08:34:08 AM
Ah, interesting thoughts. I've heard others say that they see little difference between some of Dufay's music and that of his near contemporary Machaut, but from my limited listening experience I hear a big step forward from one to the other. And I love Machaut.

I don't think the move from Machaut to Dufay is a step forward, but it is a step. There's also a big step from Dufay to Josquin.

I think that a lot is in the performance. If you smooth things out in performance, blend the sounds, adjust things so as to minimise the dissonances at cadences and elsewhere, get the singers to sing with a rich, rounded full voice  . . . then it's bound to sound more modern. So these performance decisions betray the performers' ideology about how the c15 relates to modernity.

That made me think of Stafford Cape's Machaut -- they sing it like it's a Bruckner mass, very beautiful I think, if ideologically questionable.

https://www.youtube.com/v/PghY-ZrrOe0&t=925s

Quote from: Mandryka on October 07, 2019, 08:06:42 AM
There's another recording of the mass on that Pomerium CD by The Binchois Consort, I just listened to both. You couldn't get more different approaches, one rather sweet and silky smooth,  blended almost to the point of flatness, the other full of ups and downs and asperities, sparse and rather incisive. I'm tempted to say that Alexander Blachly sees it as Renaissance music and Andrew Kirkman sees it as medieval music. I preferred  Kirkman this afternoon I have to say, but this probably betrays my current interest in the gothic.

(https://img.discogs.com/qlOLZcabcmJr7gwJQGJAFeiMQC8=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-14077908-1567429009-2580.jpeg.jpg)

And returning to the same recordings today I feel the same but stronger. I'll go as far as to say that I find the Kirkman approach superior in every way.

^The Pomerium recording is a bit on the smooth side, I agree. I listened to it once and haven't been drawn back to it since. But this could do more with my own tastes, I'm not yet a seasoned Medieval/Renaissance music guy like some of y'all. But I wasn't blown away like I was with the Munrow missa CD.

Quote from: Mandryka on October 26, 2019, 05:08:46 AM
And returning to the same recordings today I feel the same but stronger. I'll go as far as to say that I find the Kirkman approach superior in every way.

I keep hoping that Dufay will get the kind of treatment that Ockeghem and others from The Sound and the Fury and Beauty Farm, i.e. OVPP, recordings.  AFAIK, neither group has recorded any of his music.  Am I wrong?

If we think of just church music, I suppose if a mass was written for a big space then OVPP wouldn't work. I've never been to Cambrai Cathedral, I don't know what the acoustics are like.

Presumably the Hilliard L'homme armé is OVPP.

Quote from: Mandryka on October 26, 2019, 05:43:29 AM
If we think of just church music, I suppose if a mass was written for a big space then OVPP wouldn't work. I've never been to Cambrai Cathedral, I don't know what the acoustics are like.

Presumably the Hilliard L'homme armé is OVPP.

The Hilliard is the only one I could think of - but that's not much.  Regarding the acoustics, I don't think it is far-fetched to assume OVPP was not uncommon for the Medieval cathedrals and scholas - trained singers capable of singing the polyphony were not so available in many places and 4-6 might be all you could assemble.  I don't think there would be a problem hearing them in a quiet church during a service.  In fact I think it would be very effective; IMO, more pleasing that a larger choir.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51iUzIICHYL._SY355_.jpg)

I feel slightly disappointed by the late arrival of Blue Heron's Ockeghem disk so I thought I'd console myself by listening to their Dufay, which left me completely cold, I just get nothing from the way they deliver the music, the sounds they make, their vocality. I feel the same about most everything they do, from Ludford to Taverner, I think I'm just not in their target market.

So it was with some relief that I turned to Cantica Symphonia, who are more my style.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/e8cAAOSwNLpb6BfC/s-l300.jpg).  (https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571282367.png)


Very interesting to pass from Northern Star to Dufay. We all know that Dufay and friends were influenced by Dunstable and friends, and if you listen to the two CDs that kind of becomes really obvious. But most of all,  it's nice to hear the English and French composers sung in the same distinctive (Pythagorean?) tuning and blend of voices, and with the same reflective approach.

A brief listen to The Call of the Phoenix (2002) suggests that this tuning is something relatively new. It's a shame they haven't discussed it in print, at least not as far as I know.

Something a little different:

(https://shop.new-art.nl/assets/image.php?width=800&image=/content/img/new_products_queue/14307337358031.jpg)

Ambrose Field: Being Dufay
John Potter

British tenor John Potter and fellow countryman Ambrose Field, composer of electronic/digital music, offer a striking juxtaposition of Renaissance music and present-day technology: In seven interconnected pieces, vocal fragments from the songs and sacred works by Guillaume Dufay (1397–1474) soar beautifully above Ambrose Field's vast and multi-faceted soundscapes. "Then as now, music was not forever fixed but lived and breathed through the imaginations of former musicians and their listeners", writes Field in his liner notes for "Being Dufay". Potter's voice immerses itself with great ease in the allusively processed sounds. Amrose Field: "The fragments of original Dufay are always presented entirely unaltered, and serve as a reference point or cantus firmus within what is new. From that new perspective, I wanted to explore the limits of the electronic medium, and produce a new set of musical colours."

Quote from: San Antone on December 22, 2019, 07:33:30 AM
Something a little different:

(https://shop.new-art.nl/assets/image.php?width=800&image=/content/img/new_products_queue/14307337358031.jpg)

Ambrose Field: Being Dufay
John Potter

British tenor John Potter and fellow countryman Ambrose Field, composer of electronic/digital music, offer a striking juxtaposition of Renaissance music and present-day technology: In seven interconnected pieces, vocal fragments from the songs and sacred works by Guillaume Dufay (1397–1474) soar beautifully above Ambrose Field's vast and multi-faceted soundscapes. "Then as now, music was not forever fixed but lived and breathed through the imaginations of former musicians and their listeners", writes Field in his liner notes for "Being Dufay". Potter's voice immerses itself with great ease in the allusively processed sounds. Amrose Field: "The fragments of original Dufay are always presented entirely unaltered, and serve as a reference point or cantus firmus within what is new. From that new perspective, I wanted to explore the limits of the electronic medium, and produce a new set of musical colours."

Have you heard The Dowland Project recordings? Similar sort of idea maybe.

Quote from: Mandryka on December 22, 2019, 08:03:58 AM
Have you heard The Dowland Project recordings? Similar sort of idea maybe.

Yes.  I like all of the John Potter recordings.  There are also some recordings with the Hilliard Ensemble and Jan Garbarek which are also on ECM and in the same stylistic area.  I am very open to this kind of genre blending.  But I understand it may not be for everyone.

8)

Quote from: San Antone on December 22, 2019, 08:13:40 AM
Yes.  I like all of the John Potter recordings.  There are also some recordings with the Hilliard Ensemble and Jan Garbarek which are also on ECM and in the same stylistic area.  I am very open to this kind of genre blending.  But I understand it may not be for everyone.

8)

I'm glad you posted those John Potter recordings, because it lead me to these recordings that Orlando Consort made, and I think they're fun -- you should try to hear them, I bet you will appreciate them

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rTDrioq8YXU/W-ig8W_Vv-I/AAAAAAAAGyY/KOwhMIgMnCAkhaM8P1WdgmLNTHVxTGgYgCLcBGAs/s1600/front.jpg)     (https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zuMPi95F8sg/XRoMNoBsG3I/AAAAAAAAC3w/U8wBPdGNbichkaLd-eHMikjR6ZbkQEpmQCK4BGAYYCw/s1600/front.jpg)

Dear Mandryka , what do you think oof huelgas Ensemble,Dufay Isorythmics motets, I felt, like stare of endless of Renaissance best paintings, and a glimpse into what was the Future music to come, almost sound borderline very early renaissance whit Sir Paul van Nevel, so surreal, and pretty work , like staring at La Mona Lisa painting of Leonardo Da Vinci smiling at the listener, a mussic you feel and as a view or panorama on what Dufay what   bold & adventurous, my I dare say avant-garde of the past, superb rendition, when you hear this masterpieces, you come across hidden detail in composition it's is out of this world, perhaps Traverso like it too, I dont know but this album scream out genius in the making, magical trip  time travel, escapism!!

Quote from: deprofundis on February 19, 2020, 09:39:54 PM
Dear Mandryka , what do you think oof huelgas Ensemble,Dufay Isorythmics motets, I felt, like stare of endless of Renaissance best paintings, and a glimpse into what was the Future music to come, almost sound borderline very early renaissance whit Sir Paul van Nevel, so surreal, and pretty work , like staring at La Mona Lisa painting of Leonardo Da Vinci smiling at the listener, a mussic you feel and as a view or panorama on what Dufay what   bold & adventurous, my I dare say avant-garde of the past, superb rendition, when you hear this masterpieces, you come across hidden detail in composition it's is out of this world, perhaps Traverso like it too, I dont know but this album scream out genius in the making, magical trip  time travel, escapism!!

Beautiful renaissance singing. Highly polished.

This thread appears to be a treasure trove of recommendations for great Dufay. I'm seeking out the Huelgas disc on HM with isorhythmic motets.

Any love for Dufay Chansons by Ensemble Unicorn on Naxos?

Anyone listening to Dufay lately?

Quote from: vers la flamme on April 12, 2020, 10:15:37 AM


Any love for Dufay Chansons by Ensemble Unicorn on Naxos?

I wrote this about it six months ago. I remember finding it through Vergine Bella.

Quote from: Mandryka on October 06, 2019, 03:13:13 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71BJK46kPLL._SY355_.jpg)


I've never explored Ensemble Unicorn's recordings before as far as I recall. There are some really nice performances of secular Du Fay here, the instrument fantasy on  Quel Fronte signorille  is bold and imaginative, Bernhard Landauer has a voice I can live with happily, and the way Ensemble Unicorn support his singing is never routine or boring.

Oh, there's an introspective and prayerful performance of Vergine Bella à la Oberlin, I bet he's an inspiration for it!

Quote from: Mandryka on April 12, 2020, 11:45:58 AM
I wrote this about it six months ago. I remember finding it through Vergine Bella.

Ah, sounds good to me. It can be had for cheap, I might snag it.

Quote from: vers la flamme on April 12, 2020, 10:15:37 AM
I'm seeking out the Huelgas disc on HM with isorhythmic motets.

I thought I'd listen to a couple, Vasilissa ergo gaude and O gemma, lux et speculum.

They have a busy high voice and more slow and steady lower voices.

Nevel peps them up with a bit of brass, which is a very Nevel thing to do! The result is grand and rich.

Can these motets be played a cappella -- or would it fall flat? Clerks Group do Vasilissa ergo gaude a cappella, that's the only one I can find. They use instruments for O gemma lux.

Hello Mandryka  I'm listening to a fine LP on Seraphim Label early consort of music directed by brilliant David Munrow.

Missa face ay Pale a very very good vinyl and rendition of Dufay, David Munrow ensemble really nail  it,  this LP unreal, trully

Quote from: deprofundis on May 07, 2020, 11:33:51 PM
Hello Mandryka  I'm listening to a fine LP on Seraphim Label early consort of music directed by brilliant David Munrow.

Missa face ay Pale a very very good vinyl and rendition of Dufay, David Munrow ensemble really nail  it,  this LP unreal, trully

I have that on CD, it's a damn MHS bootleg but I still love it. So good.

It's a while since I listened to any Dufay in a serious way, I think the last thing was Vellard doing Missa Ave Regina Caelorum on an old Stil CD. Anyway, I've just ordered this

(https://blob.cede.ch/catalog/16280000/16280581_1_92.jpg?v=1)

QuoteThe new album "NEW FLOWERS" by friends of green sonic and Deutschlandfunk Kultur with music by the great renaissance composer Guillaume Dufay is a milestone in the publication of early music: The brilliant ensemble SANTENAY blossoms the beauty of timeless music in a whole new style - full of elegance and deep expression. At the same time, the album celebrates a sound world premiere: The music was recorded with the award-winning "clàr" recorder. The new recording technology offers a completely new 3D sound experience in the world's highest sound resolution. In short: an album with new flowers for the ear and the soul.

Quote from: Mandryka on May 08, 2020, 08:39:53 AM
It's a while since I listened to any Dufay in a serious way, I think the last thing was Vellard doing Missa Ave Regina Caelorum on an old Stil CD. Anyway, I've just ordered this

(https://blob.cede.ch/catalog/16280000/16280581_1_92.jpg?v=1)

Wow Mandryka I'm anvious this look awesome indeed

Quote from: Mandryka on May 08, 2020, 08:39:53 AM
It's a while since I listened to any Dufay in a serious way, I think the last thing was Vellard doing Missa Ave Regina Caelorum on an old Stil CD. Anyway, I've just ordered this

(https://blob.cede.ch/catalog/16280000/16280581_1_92.jpg?v=1)

Johan van Veen is not quite loving it....

http://www.musica-dei-donum.org/cd_reviews/Hyperion_CDA68236_greensonic_CD1710.html

Quote from: Que on May 09, 2020, 06:10:38 AM
Johan van Veen is not quite loving it....

http://www.musica-dei-donum.org/cd_reviews/Hyperion_CDA68236_greensonic_CD1710.html

Well I think he's being a bit of fusspot, you get the impression he was in a grumpy mood and looking for negative things to say. There's zero problem about text intelligibility. The most striking thing about the Santenay disc is the singer, there's only one, and she's got a characterful voice which you will either love or loath. Shades of Callas - if Callas sang Du Fay in a medieval style - not belting it out like in Bellini - this is what it would sound like. Anyone thinking of buying it should try to sample her timbre.

I like her voice, but that's just good fortune.

The performances are intimate.  It is beautifully packaged.

Thx, will look for it for a good listen.  :)

Q

https://www.youtube.com/v/pY9WcXVTWGw&feature=emb_logo

Good video on isorhythmic motets here (in French)