Let's do this! Pick your top 10 choices for greatest symphonies, with your top choice receiving 10 points, and your tenth choice receiving 1 point. After a few weeks I will tally up the total points and we will have the Top Ten Greatest Symphonies as chosen by the fine posters at GMG.
I'm choosing to describe these as 'greatest' and not 'favorite', as I'm attempting to aim for a more objective view. The symphonies I chose were all ones I adore and have for decades, but I also recognize their importance, uniqueness or popularity in the symphonic field. Not to say that any of you have to follow the same path, but if I went with favorites my list would contain 9 Philip Glass symphonies and 1 Haydn, or 9 Haydn and 1 Glass, either way. Speaking of which, no real rules apply when choosing, if you believe Mahler wrote the 10 best symphonies ever, then put them order and I will include them.
Anyway, should be fun, and hopefully you all with join in and have fun as well. I'll start...
10 - Beethoven: No. 3
9 - Symphonie Fantastique
8 - Bruckner: No. 8
7 - Mahler: No. 3
6 - Ives: No. 4
5 - Schubert: No. 9
4 - Glass: Low Symphony
3 - Haydn: No. 80
2 - Gorecki: No. 3
1 - Shostakovich No. 15
+10 Beethoven Symphony No. 3
+9 Mozart Symphony No. 38
+8 Schoenberg Kammersymphonie No. 1
+7 Brahms Symphony No. 3
+6 Berlioz Roméo et Juliette
+5 Webern Symphony
+4 Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 6
+3 Szymanowski Symphony No. 4
+2 Carter Symphonia
+1 Gerhard Symphony No. 3 (Collages)
I..... guess. Order is a bit vague and I kept it to one per composer.
Oh man....this is going to be tough, but I'll try and I'll also try to limit my choices to one per composer:
+10 Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 5
+9 Shostakovich: Symphony No. 4
+8 Sibelius: Symphony No. 4
+7 Nielsen: Symphony No. 3, "Sinfonia espansiva"
+6 Ives: Symphony No. 4
+5 Mahler: Symphony No. 6
+4 Rachmaninov: Symphony No. 2
+3 Copland: Symphony No. 3
+2 Schnittke: Symphony No. 8
+1 Weinberg: Symphony No. 5
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 31, 2017, 08:07:13 PM
Oh man....this is going to be tough, but I'll try and I'll also try to limit my choices to one per composer:
+10 Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 5
+9 Shostakovich: Symphony No. 4
+8 Sibelius: Symphony No. 4
+7 Nielsen: Symphony No. 3, "Sinfonia espansiva"
+6 Ives: Symphony No. 4
+5 Mahler: Symphony No. 6
+4 Rachmaninov: Symphony No. 2
+3 Copland: Symphony No. 3
+2 Schnittke: Symphony No. 8
+1 Weinberg: Symphony No. 5
Delighted to see you back here. :)
V much agree with your choices too.
Ok here goes:
Bruckner No.9 (10)
Shostakovich No.4 (9)
Vaughan Williams Symphony 6 (eight)
Mahler Symphony No.9 (7)
Tchaikovsky No.6 (6)
Walton No.1 (5)
Weinberg No.5 (4)
Nielsen No.5 (3)
Copland No.3 (2)
Miaskovsky No.6 (1)
10. Ives Symphony No. 4
9. Szymanowski Symphony No. 4
8. Hartmann Symphony No. 6
7. Lutoslawski Symphony No. 3
6. Schnittke Symphony No. 1
5. Maxwell Davies Symphony No. 7
4. Henze Symphony No. 7
3. Schmitt Symphonie concertante
2. Britten Symphony for cello and orchestra
1. Hindemith Pittsburgh Symphony
Ten is far too restrictive for anyone actually listening to classical music, so I'm taking this as another instance of list-making fun. Numbers correspond to awarded points, not order of preference or perceived value.
1 - Beethoven: Symphony No.3
2 - Mozart: Symphony No.38
3 - Schubert: Symphony No.9
4 - Berlioz: Symphonie fantastique
5 - Brahms: Symphony No.4
6 - Schumann: Symphony No.2
7 - Bruckner: Symphony No.9 (with finale)
8 - Mahler: Symphony No.8
9 - Korngold: Sinfonietta
10 - Schmidt: Symphony No.2
10 - Sibelius: Symphony No. 6
9 - Nielsen: Symphony No. 4
8 - Mahler: Symphony No. 9
7 - Beethoven: Symphony No. 6
6 - Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 5
5 - Shostakovich: Symphony No. 4
4 - Brahms: Symphony No. 4
3 - Schumann: Symphony No. 2
2 - Dvorak: Symphony No. 8
1 - Rakhmaninov: Symphony No. 2
Edit: Woah! I returned to this thread and realized I had Ives 3rd, it was supposed to be his 4th. I had jumbled around my choices so much, and originally had five other 3rd symphonies in my first list before I narrowed it down. I need glasses 8)
Alien, and Wanderer: Did you go backwards on purpose? Does your pick on top receive 10 points?
Starting to recognize some of the front runners, with Beethoven 3rd and DSCH 4th leading the pack!
Quote from: Mr Bloom on August 31, 2017, 11:05:38 PM
10. Ives Symphony No. 4
9. Szymanowski Symphony No. 4
8. Hartmann Symphony No. 6
7. Lutoslawski Symphony No. 3
6. Schnittke Symphony No. 1
5. Maxwell Davies Symphony No. 7
4. Henze Symphony No. 7
3. Schmitt Symphonie concertante
2. Britten Symphony for cello and orchestra
1. Hindemith Pittsburgh Symphony
Most interesting choice for the
Hindemith, sir!
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Quote from: vandermolen on August 31, 2017, 09:39:38 PM
Delighted to see you back here. :)
V much agree with your choices too.
Thanks, Jeffrey. Yeah, my musical tastes haven't changed
that much (thankfully). ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 01, 2017, 05:23:18 AM
Thanks, Jeffrey. Yeah, my musical tastes haven't changed that much (thankfully). ;)
... apart from all the Katy Perry you've been grooving to ;)
Sibelius 7
Stravinsky C
Simpson 9
Beethoven 3
Bruckner 9
Brahms 4
Schubert 9
Saint-Saens 3
Mozart 40
One space kept for oversights.
One per composer
Brahms 4
Beethoven 6
Mahler 6
Dvorak 9
Sibelius 7
Ives 4
Shostakovich 8
Schubert 9
Mozart 40
Saint-Saens 3
Another delightfully impossible list, though with the addition of points so that one feels he has (in the parlance of our times) "skin in the game."
I'll go ahead, even though I expect (like our Greg) that I may afterwards be shocked at something dear to me which I missed.
10 – Shostakovich, Symphony № 4 in c minor, Op.43. I see that Scarpia (IIRC) finds this puzzling, and maybe I can find some time this holiday weekend to draw him a diagram.
9 – Prokofiev, Symphony № 2 in d minor, Op.40. Of composing his seminal masterpiece, Stravinsky once said, "I am the vessel through which Le sacre passed." I think that the aftershock self-doubt which Prokofiev experienced in the brouhaha after this symphony's première betokens a similar 'channeling.'
8 – Shostakovich, № 10 in e minor, Op.93. From that life-changing musical experience one fateful day at the College of Wooster's McGaw Chapel, love for this piece is in my DNA.
7 – Stravinsky, Symphony in Three Movements. Not that "it's all about Ohio," but again, hearing the Clevelanders play this (while the San Francisco Ballet danced) at the Blossom Music Center marks it as a perennial favorite.
6 – Hindemith, Symphony «Mathis der Maler». Another 20th-c. classic which was first introduced to me at Wooster. Tough!
5 – Andriessen, Symphonie voor losse snaren. One of the best pieces you've never heard yet.
4 – Schnittke, Symphony № 4. The especially exquisite choral writing makes this perhaps my very favorite among "choral symphonies."
3 – Nielsen, Sinfonia espansiva
2 – Sibelius, Symphony № 6 in d minor, Op.104
1 – Haydn, Symphony № 92 in G, «Oxford»
Great lists so far everyone! And yes, Karl, impossible. My next 10 symphonies (Nos.11-20) that got eliminated were just as good as my top 10. And included Schnittke's 3rd and 4th! Nice to see so much love for his works.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 01, 2017, 03:59:39 AM
Did you go backwards on purpose? Does your pick on top receive 10 points?
1. Yes.
2. Numbers correspond to points, so the pick on top receives 1 point - and so forth.
Off to the beach, now! 8)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 01, 2017, 05:54:00 AM
Another delightfully impossible list, though with the addition of points so that one feels he has (in the parlance of our times) "skin in the game."
I'll go ahead, even though I expect (like our Greg) that I may afterwards be shocked at something dear to me which I missed.
10 – Shostakovich, Symphony № 4 in c minor, Op.43. I see that Scarpia (IIRC) finds this puzzling, and maybe I can find some time this holiday weekend to draw him a diagram.
9 – Prokofiev, Symphony № 2 in d minor, Op.40. Of composing his seminal masterpiece, Stravinsky once said, "I am the vessel through which Le sacre passed." I think that the aftershock self-doubt which Prokofiev experienced in the brouhaha after this symphony's première betokens a similar 'channeling.'
8 – Shostakovich, № 10 in e minor, Op.93. From that life-changing musical experience one fateful day at the College of Wooster's McGaw Chapel, love for this piece is in my DNA.
7 – Stravinsky, Symphony in Three Movements. Not that "it's all about Ohio," but again, hearing the Clevelanders play this (while the San Francisco Ballet danced) at the Blossom Music Center marks it as a perennial favorite.
6 – Hindemith, Symphony «Mathis der Maler». Another 20th-c. classic which was first introduced to me at Wooster. Tough!
5 – Andriessen, Symphonie voor losse snaren. One of the best pieces you've never heard yet.
4 – Schnittke, Symphony № 4. The especially exquisite choral writing makes this perhaps my very favorite among "choral symphonies."
3 – Nielsen, Sinfonia espansiva
2 – Sibelius, Symphony № 6 in d minor, Op.104
1 – Haydn, Symphony № 92 in G, «Oxford»
Interesting list
Karl.
I need to listen to Andriessen.
I shouldn't have left out Sibelius but I'd have chosen No.4 - I may have to do a 'List No.2' - Also Prokofiev symphonies 6,5 and 3 are all 'Great' IMHO.
Your Katy Perry comment made me laugh - I quite like some of her songs actually. Guess I could have included 'Fool's Overture' by Supertramp too as I've been listening to it in my car recently.
8)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 01, 2017, 05:29:02 AM
... apart from all the Katy Perry you've been grooving to ;)
Haha! That's good one! ;D I think you have mixed up with 71dB. :)
Quote from: Wanderer on September 01, 2017, 07:21:25 AM
1. Yes.
2. Numbers correspond to points, so the pick on top receives 1 point - and so forth.
Off to the beach, now! 8)
Thanks! Go get that tan! 8)
Truly GMG has members with the most eclectic, exquisite, and eccentric tastes ! 0:)
That somebody mentioned Carter's Symphonia Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei ??? in this context, or the Ives Fourth :o , or the Hartmann Sixth ??? :o, etc. etc. etc. is just so heartening! 8)
Keep up the good listening! :D
10 Beethoven 9
9 Beethoven 3
8 Mahler 9
7 Mozart 38
6 Haydn 102
5 Haydn 45
4 Brahms 4
3 Bruckner 7
2 Nielsen 5
1 Schumann 4
Point values, not ranking, indicated:
10 - Mahler No. 6 in A minor: Not a wasted note.
9 - Mozart No. 41 in C: Bursting with energy, and counterpoint too!
8 - Brahms No. 4 in E minor: The more stoic counterpart to the Mahler above.
7 - Schoenberg Chamber Symphony No. 1 in E: The more manic counterpart to the Mozart above.
6 - Stravinsky Symphony of Psalms: Compact and austere.
5 - Carter Symphonia: A full-blooded symphony in the guise of a high modernist piece.
4 - Sibelius No. 4 in A minor: Wonderfully and expressively shaped throughout.
3 - Beethoven No. 4 in B-flat: From the introduction on, the way this one develops is consistently surprising.
2 - Tchaikovsky No. 6 in B minor: Because something in B minor had to be on this list.
1 - Bruckner No. 5 in B-flat: Fugues and counterpoint and lots of development.
An ultimately confused attempt at trying to include favourites, as well as 'greatest', while also doing 1 per composer, and ending up without Beethoven, and others, somehow. :-\
10 - Mahler: No. 9
9 - Bruckner: No. 8
8 - Brahms No. 4
7 - Tchaikovsky: No. 6 "Pathetique"
6 - Sibelius: No. 7
5 - Nielsen: No. 5
4 - Shostakovich: No. 4
3 - Rachmaninov: No. 2
2 - Rautavaara: No. 7 "Angel of Light"
1 - Martinů: No. 6 "Fantaisies Symphoniques"
It's okay to omit Beethoven from a Top 10. Really it is. (Said the guy who omitted Beethoven from his Top 10, and feels no remorse.)
10 Brahms 4
9 Nielsen 5
8 Mahler 6
7 Beethoven 7
6 Shostakovich 5
5 Dvorák 8
4 Vaughan Williams 4
3 Sibelius 5
2 Prokofiev 5
1 Stenhammar 2
10 (points) Beethoven 3
9 Brian 1 "Gothic"
8 Bruckner 8
7 Mahler 6
6 Brahms 4
5 Mozart 41
4 Vaughan Williams 4
3 Nielsen 3 "Espansiva"
2 Korngold
1 Haydn 88
Quote from: Cato on September 01, 2017, 08:06:36 AM
Truly GMG has members with the most eclectic, exquisite, and eccentric tastes ! 0:)
That somebody mentioned Carter's Symphonia Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei ??? in this context, or the Ives Fourth :o , or the Hartmann Sixth ??? :o, etc. etc. etc. is just so heartening! 8)
Keep up the good listening! :D
I should have included Hartmann in my initial list. Such an awesome composer and a favorite of mine. 8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 01, 2017, 06:21:01 PM
I should have included Hartmann in my initial list. Such an awesome composer and a favorite of mine. 8)
A BIG
AMEN to that! 0:) I still recall discovering the DGG recording of
Rafael Kubelik conducting the
Fourth and
Eighth Symphonies! Great works!
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 01, 2017, 05:09:22 PM
10 (points) Beethoven 3
9 Brian 1 "Gothic"
9 Bruckner 8
8 Mahler 6
7 Brahms 4
6 Mozart 41
5 Shostakovich 15
4 Vaughan Williams 4
3 Nielsen 3 "Espansiva"
2 Korngold
1 Haydn 88
Cool list
but . . . you have two 9-pointers thar, Mister
Sarge . . . .
I know, I know! How could I omit Hartmann?!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2017, 04:40:53 AM
Cool list but . . . you have two 9-pointers thar, Mister Sarge . . . .
Oops...the result of making a list at 3 am ;D
Sarge
8)
Unintentional cross post... 0:) :-[
Already began tallying up the points, although I would like to get at least 25 lists before I start revealing them. I think we are up to 16 lists so far.
Thank you to everyone participating! This is a series I may continue when this is over, thinking of Greatest Concertos, Greatest Chamber Works, Greatest Sacred Works, etc...
8)
10: Toch: Symphony #3, op. 75
9: Shostakovich: Symphony #5 in D minor, op. 47
8: Schnittke: Symphony #1
7: Honegger: Symphony #5 "Di Tre Re"
6. Weinberg: Symphony #10, op. 98
5: Mozart: Symphony #41 in C, K. 551 "Jupiter"
4: Stravinsky: Symphony in C
3: Fibich: Symphony #3 in E minor, op. 53
2: Valen: Symphony #1, op. 30
1: Moondog's Symphony!
Quote from: schnittkease on September 02, 2017, 08:18:05 AM
10: Toch: Symphony #3, op. 75
9: Shostakovich: Symphony #5 in D minor, op. 47
8: Schnittke: Symphony #1
7: Honegger: Symphony #5 "Di Tre Re"
6. Weinberg: Symphony #10, op. 98
5: Mozart: Symphony #41 in C, K. 551 "Jupiter"
4: Stravinsky: Symphony in C
3: Fibich: Symphony #3 in E minor, op. 53
2: Valen: Symphony #1, op. 30
1: Moondog's Symphony!
I do always enjoy the
Toch symphonies when I tarry with them. Good to see such enthusiasm!
Quote from: Cato on September 02, 2017, 03:29:44 AM
A BIG AMEN to that! 0:) I still recall discovering the DGG recording of Rafael Kubelik conducting the Fourth and Eighth Symphonies! Great works!
Kubelik certainly made a most convincing case for Hartmann to say the least.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2017, 04:41:39 AM
I know, I know! How could I omit Hartmann?!
Something I continue hitting myself in the head about --- I also left off Diamond, Barber, W. Schuman, Prokofiev, Chavez, Brahms, Dvorak....geez. :-[
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 02, 2017, 08:52:21 AM
Something I continue hitting myself in the head about --- I also left off Diamond, Barber, W. Schuman, Prokofiev, Chavez, Brahms, Dvorak....geez. :-[
John, complaining that a list is too short. Schadenfreude overload!
Quote from: Ken B on September 02, 2017, 11:47:50 AM
John, complaining that a list is too short. Schadenfreude overload!
:P
Mahler 6
Mahler 2
Mahler 3
Beethoven 9
Beethoven 7
Sibelius 2
Mahler 9
Mozart 40
Mozart 41
Tchaikovsky 6
10 - Tchaikovsky: Symphony #6 In B Minor, Op. 74, "Pathétique"
09 - Mahler: Symphony #6 In A Minor, "Tragic"
08 - Shostakovich: Symphony #10 In E Minor, Op. 93
07 - Mahler: Symphony #9 In D
06 - Brahms: Symphony #4 In E Minor, Op. 98
05 - Shostakovich: Symphony #5 In D Minor, Op. 47
04 - Mahler: Symphony #2 In C Minor, "Resurrection"
03 - Sibelius: Symphony #6 In D Minor, Op. 104
02 - Mendelssohn: Symphony #3 In A Minor, Op. 56, "Scottish"
01 - Shostakovich: Symphony #7 In C, Op. 60, "Leningrad"
Are we allowed to count Das Lied Von Der Erde as a Mahler symphony?
Quote from: SimonNZ on September 02, 2017, 09:09:55 PM
Are we allowed to count Das Lied Von Der Erde as a Mahler symphony?
From
Wikipedia:
QuoteDas Lied von der Erde ("The Song of the Earth") is a composition for two voices and orchestra written by the Austrian composer Gustav Mahler between 1908 and 1909. Described as a symphony when published, it comprises six songs for two singers who take turns singing the songs.
also:
QuoteOn the centenary of Mahler's birth, the composer and known Mahler conductor Leonard Bernstein described Das Lied von der Erde as Mahler's "greatest symphony".
I'd agree it could be considered a Symphony but it's up to the OP to decide I guess..
Quote from: Conor71 on September 02, 2017, 09:22:48 PM
From Wikipedia:
QuoteDas Lied von der Erde ("The Song of the Earth") is a composition for two voices and orchestra written by the Austrian composer Gustav Mahler between 1908 and 1909. Described as a symphony when published, it comprises six songs for two singers who take turns singing the songs.
also:
QuoteOn the centenary of Mahler's birth, the composer and known Mahler conductor Leonard Bernstein described Das Lied von der Erde as Mahler's "greatest symphony".
I'd agree it could be considered a Symphony but it's up to the OP to decide I guess..
Described by who as a symphony? Mahler himself did not recognize that he had composed a symphony but we should take Leonard Bernstein's word for it?
Quote from: Scarpia on September 02, 2017, 09:34:11 PM
also:
I'd agree it could be considered a Symphony but it's up to the OP to decide I guess..
Described by who as a symphony? Mahler himself did not recognize that he had composed a symphony but we should take Leonard Bernstein's word for it?
Not a fan of Wikipedia? - OK...
Why don't you post a sources which confirms your bolded quote above?
Quote from: Conor71 on September 02, 2017, 09:43:24 PM
Not a fan of Wikipedia? - OK...
Why don't you post a sources which confirms your bolded quote above?
The score does not contain the word "symphony" in the title. That's not sufficient to conclude Mahler did not consider it a symphony?
Quote from: Scarpia on September 02, 2017, 09:52:33 PM
The score does not contain the word "symphony" in the title. That's not sufficient to conclude Mahler did not consider it a symphony?
I know it's not among his numbered Symphonies and is not explicitly described as being one either - I remember reading that there were other people who thought it was though.
I'll have a dig around and see if I can find some decent references for my claim - may be a while as I have other stuff to do..
But I think GSMoeller has the final word on this as it's his thread - you'll have to suck it up if he agrees with me (regardless of whether it's "correct" or not).
Didn't mean to start a fight. I thought there was a thing where he didn't call it his 9th symphony for superstitious reasons, but perhaps that's just a myth. And I think I've seen it on lists of favorite Mahler symphonies before.
It seems like the linear notes of every recording of DLvDE tells the story of how Mahler was too superstitious to call it a symphony since it would be his ninth. I think it goes back to an anecdote told by Bruno Walter. Makes no sense to me, since he called the next one the ninth and DLvDE wasn't the first orchestral song cycle he wrote.
There are lots of works that could be mistaken for symphonies, except the composers didn't call them symphonies. Sibelius' Tapiola comes to mind, which seem very similar in structure to the 7th symphony. It was different in the times of Beethoven and before, but it seems to me that at this point the only viable definition of "symphony" is a piece of music with "symphony" in the title.
From the editor (Universal Edition) page:
Mahler himself wrote the title page found in the Stichvorlage (printer's manuscript), as follows: "Das Lied von der Erde" / Eine Symphonie / für eine Tenor- und eine Alt oder Baryton-Stimme / und Orchester / von / Gustav Mahler.
TD:
Trying to keep the spirit of the OP (greatest instead of favorite), here's my list, one for each composer:
10 Schubert's Unfinished Symphony
9 Beethoven 9
8 Mozart 41
7 Berlioz's Symphonie fantastique
6 Haydn 104
5 Webern's Symphony Op.21
4 Mahler 2
3 Berio's Sinfonia
2 Bruckner 9
1 Brahms 4 (or Shostakovich 4, or Nielsen 5, or Sibelius 7, or Mendelssohn 3, ...)
Quote from: SimonNZ on September 02, 2017, 10:13:42 PM
Didn't mean to start a fight. I thought there was a thing where he didn't call it his 9th symphony for superstitious reasons, but perhaps that's just a myth. And I think I've seen it on lists of favorite Mahler symphonies before.
It's alright Simon, noones fighting :) - I thought the same as you about DLVDE (just remember reading on some forum(s) that it could be called a "Symphony" depending on your viewpoint).
Here's an article about DLVDE which I replicated from the LA Philharmonic Orchestra's website (I didn't dig around too deeply I guess as I'm not much of a "search master") but I bolded some parts which may be of interest:
Quote
No composer said farewell more eloquently, poignantly, and frequently than Gustav Mahler. The theme of death runs through Mahler's music like a current, at times swiftly, then gently, then again ferociously. For verification, pick any work, from any period in his output: from the early, bloody Songs of a Wayfarer and the First Symphony, where death is treated ironically; to the Second Symphony where death is the prelude to resurrection; from mid-career, the Fifth Symphony with its blaring funeral marches; and the last three, death-impregnated compositions: Das Lied von der Erde (The Song of the Earth), the Ninth Symphony, and the uncompleted Tenth.
These final works proceeded from events that took place in the year 1907, when, in quick succession Mahler suffered the death of his elder daughter, Anna Maria, and was forced as a consequence of various intrigues against him to resign his position as director of the Vienna Court Opera. And the final blow: He was diagnosed as having an incurable heart ailment. Mahler responded not by taking to his invalid's bed or the analyst's couch (although he did have a meeting with Sigmund Freud not long after), but by assuming the posts of principal conductor of both the Metropolitan Opera and the New York Philharmonic.
"I have been going through so many experiences for the last year and half," Mahler wrote in 1909 to Bruno Walter, who would conduct the posthumous premiere of Das Lied von der Erde in 1911, "that I can hardly discuss them. How should I describe such a colossal crisis?... Yet I am thirstier than ever for life and I find the 'habit of living' sweeter than ever." These feelings are reflected in the old Chinese poems, in Hans Bethge's German paraphrases (published in 1907 as Die chinesische Flöte – The Chinese Flute), which were chosen for Das Lied.
Mahler called Das Lied von der Erde "a Symphony for Tenor, Contralto (or Baritone) and Orchestra," without assigning it a number; he firmly believed that no one should be allowed to surpass Beethoven's total of nine, and that in challenging fate he would be hastening his own end – as Bruckner did with his unfinished Ninth.
Immediately before setting to work on Das Lied, Mahler wrote the following wrenching letter, again to Bruno Walter, which tells us as much, and then some, as we might want to know about his state of mind:
"If I am to find my way back to myself, I have got to accept the horrors of loneliness. I speak in riddles, since you do not know what has gone on and is going on within. It is surely no hypochondriac fear of death, as you might suppose. I have long known that I must die... Without trying to explain or describe something for which there are probably no words, I simply say that at a single stroke I have lost any calm and peace of mind that I have ever achieved. I stand vis-à-vis de rien [face to face with nothingness], and now, at the end of my life, have to learn again to walk and stand." By these last words, he would seem to mean learning to find a meaning in life while facing death. This "facing of death" is most clearly expressed (since we have words to guide us) in Das Lied, wherein the singer-poet-composer finally takes leave of earthly delights, ending in quiet ecstasy and resignation:
My heart is still and awaits its hour.
The beloved earth everywhere blossoms and greens in springtime
Anew. Everywhere and forever the distances brighten blue!
Forever... forever...
The late Mahler expert Deryck Cooke parsed Das Lied von der Erde as a "symphony in the Mahlerian sense... first movement: conflict; four shorter movements bearing on the central idea; complex finale bringing a resolution; the whole composed of motives developed symphonically, if not in traditional forms." Then, in a reaction that has been repeated countless times, cool analysis is followed by total, uncritical capitulation to the sheer emotional pull of this music; Cooke adds: "The last, appalling tension in Mahler's spirit forced from him music of indescribable beauty and poignancy... In The Song of the Earth the sudden bitter awareness of imminent extinction is confronted and fused with a hedonistic delight in the beauty of nature and the ecstasy of living, both now possessed so briefly and precariously... It is as if the sudden taste of mortality had dissolved all solidity out of the world, leaving it sharply etched in thin lines and clear water-colors. These are, of course, appropriate to the Chinese atmosphere of the text... The Song of the Earth has a new, naked kind of harmonic texture and orchestration which, although sometimes prefigured in Mahler's earlier works and partly retained in his two later ones, really belongs to this work above all, and is like no other in music."
It would be foolish to attempt to better Cooke's rapturous summing-up. In conclusion, then, a brief characterization of the individual movements:
"The Drinking Song of Earth's Sorrow" shouts defiance of impending death, with a central section whose vision of earthly beauty prefigures the very end of the entire piece. But the bleak refrain, "Dark is life; dark is death," dominates. "The Lonely One in Autumn" is the symphony's slow movement, beginning in weary resignation, building to a tremendous climax of despair, then receding again into weariness, all passions – and hope – spent. The following movements, "Of Youth," "Of Beauty," "The Drunkard in Spring," comprise a wistful scherzo in three parts, recalling, with touches of irony, past joys.
"The Farewell," as long as the other five movements combined – and to many listeners Mahler's crowning achievement – is a marvel of orchestration, reflecting (and enhancing) the text's visions of crushing tragedy and bittersweet regret, achieved by using as many players as possible, and as few. A chronicle of the weariness of body and soul, an embracing of death, then, finally, an exquisitely lyrical outpouring of faith in life's renewal in a huge C-major coda, concluding with the previously-quoted passage, fading into the distance... "Everywhere, forever... forever and ever...."
Quote from: Scarpia on September 02, 2017, 10:28:28 PM
It seems like the linear notes of every recording of DLvDE tells the story of how Mahler was too superstitious to call it a symphony since it would be his ninth. I think it goes back to an anecdote told by Bruno Walter. Makes no sense to me, since he called the next one the ninth and DLvDE wasn't the first orchestral song cycle he wrote.
There are lots of works that could be mistaken for symphonies, except the composers didn't call them symphonies. Sibelius' Tapiola comes to mind, which seem very similar in structure to the 7th symphony. It was different in the times of Beethoven and before, but it seems to me that at this point the only viable definition of "symphony" is a piece of music with "symphony" in the title.
Lol - alright, your bolded text seems to match up with what was in my quote above.
Maybe member "Mahlerian" might be able to give us his thoughts (as he seems a bit more scholarly about Mahler than the average forumite).
Apologies to GSMoeller for the diversion - I'll desist my part in the conversation for now.
I don't really mind if Das Lied is on someone's list, i believe there's a case for it both being considered a symphony, or not. Just as I wouldn't have a problem with Alpine Symphony being considered as well.
I hope that is alright with everyone else.
Quote from: Conor71 on September 02, 2017, 10:42:20 PM
Lol - alright, your bolded text seems to match up with what was in my quote above.
Maybe member "Mahlerian" might be able to give us his thoughts (as he seems a bit more scholarly about Mahler than the average forumite).
Apologies to GSMoeller for the diversion - I'll desist my part in the conversation for now.
Mahler did originally put IX. Symphonie on the title page of Das Lied von der Erde, but then crossed it out and left us with the title as it stands, which does include the phrase "a symphony" as quoted above. We don't know exactly why he did this, other than hearsay and speculation about the Curse of the Ninth. Mahler himself didn't leave an explanation, and neither Das Lied nor the work he eventually called his Ninth Symphony were performed during his lifetime.
If there's a good reason for not considering it a symphony, it's the fact that it's not in traditional symphonic form, lacking a sonata-allegro movement, unlike any of the symphonies Mahler gave numbers to.
Still, I already said "Symphony of Psalms," which also doesn't use sonata form anywhere, so I'm not going to criticize others for not using that as a requirement.
Quote from: Mahlerian on September 03, 2017, 07:39:27 AM
Still, I already said "Symphony of Psalms," which also doesn't use sonata form anywhere [...]
And is, essentially, a choral work. IIRC
Stravinsky put
Symphony in the title because
Koussevitsky and the
BSO commissioned him . . . for a symphony. Which would make the explanation that "it is the Psalms which are symphonized" a kind of a Stravinskyan rationalization.
But, of course, a great, great piece, whether it is a symphony or not 8)
I selected 10 symphonies I personally consider the greatest, but I ordered them rather... strategically. ;)
10 - Messiaen: Turangalîla-Symphonie
9 - Stravinsky: Symphony of Psalms
8 - Ives: Symphony No. 4
7 - Berio: Sinfonia
6 - Sibelius: Symphony No. 7
5 - Mahler: Symphony No. 9
4 - Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique
3 - Beethoven: Symphony No. 9 "Choral"
2 - Brahms: Symphony No. 4
1 - Mozart: Symphony No. 41 "Jupiter"
Boy is this a tough one.
10 - Beethoven: Symphony No 8
9 - Brahms: Symphony No 4
8 - Dvorak: Symphony No 8
7 - Haydn: Symphony No 92
6 - Bruckner: Symphony No 7
5 - Sibelius: Symphony No 7
4 - Beethoven: Symphony No 7
3 - Vaughan Williams: Symphony No 3
2 - Schubert: Symphony No 8 in C (a.k.a. "9")
1 - Haydn: Symphony No 80
I thought about throwing the bottom 3 to symphonies nobody else will vote for, just so that somebody voted for them. I did ultimately vote strategically (for instance, I thought Beethoven 3 was doing just fine and wanted to make sure 8 got some love).
Quote from: Brian on September 05, 2017, 07:55:41 AM
1 - Haydn: Symphony No 80
Nice,
Brian. That's twice No. 80 has shown up.
BTW, the leading symphony has a 21 pt lead. :o
I'll wait at least through the week, maybe reveal scores on Saturday.
Quote from: Brian on September 05, 2017, 07:55:41 AM
Boy is this a tough one.
10 - Beethoven: Symphony No 8
9 - Brahms: Symphony No 4
8 - Dvorak: Symphony No 8
7 - Haydn: Symphony No 92
6 - Bruckner: Symphony No 7
5 - Sibelius: Symphony No 7
4 - Beethoven: Symphony No 7
3 - Vaughan Williams: Symphony No 3
2 - Schubert: Symphony No 8 in C (a.k.a. "9")
1 - Haydn: Symphony No 80
I thought about throwing the bottom 3 to symphonies nobody else will vote for, just so that somebody voted for them. I did ultimately vote strategically (for instance, I thought Beethoven 3 was doing just fine and wanted to make sure 8 got some love).
Interesting about the VW. The writer and composer's friend Michael Kennedy, regarded it as his best as, I think, does Christo here. I'll stick with No.6 which combines the violence of No.4 with the spiritual qualities of No.5 to create a very disturbing but incredibly thought-provoking synthesis. The Epilogue, described on my old LP as 'an eerie progression through a bleak wasteland' is unlike anything else I know in music.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 03:06:34 AM
Interesting about the VW. The writer and composer's friend Michael Kennedy, regarded it as his best as, I think, does Christo here. I'll stick with No.6 which combines the violence of No.4 with the spiritual qualities of No.5 to create a very disturbing but incredibly thought-provoking synthesis. The Epilogue, described on my old LP as 'an eerie progression through a bleak wasteland' is unlike anything else I know in music.
That was a case of "voting strategically". I prefer No. 5 (barely), but saw that somebody else had voted for it, and wanted another symphony to get some love in the final list. :)
It does change from year to year, but most remain the same.
Counting up from 1 to 10.
Mahler : Symphony No.9
Bruckner : Symphony No.8
Shostakovich : Symphony No.11 - One of the finest, descriptive, event happening Symphonies I know!
Beethoven : Symphony No.9
Vaughan Williams : Symphony No.5
Gorecki : Symphony No.3
Sauguet : Symphony No.2 'Allegorique'
Shostakovich : Symphony No.5
Atterburg : Symphony No.1
Mozart : Symphony No.41 'Jupiter'
23 lists contributed so far, can we reach 30 in one more day??? 8)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 08, 2017, 06:40:37 AM
23 lists contributed so far, can we reach 30 in one more day??? 8)
Looking at the list so far...you might want to alert the Havergal Brian thread about this thread... ;)
Quote from: Brian on September 08, 2017, 07:16:54 AM
Looking at the list so far...you might want to alert the Havergal Brian thread about this thread... ;)
Nah. Tell them once the results are in! >:D
Quote from: Ken B on September 01, 2017, 05:34:28 AM
Sibelius 7
Stravinsky C
Simpson 9
Beethoven 3
Bruckner 9
Brahms 4
Schubert 9
Saint-Saens 3
Mozart 40
One space kept for oversights.
That's 10 on top Greg, so 10 for Cy Balius, down to 2 for Wolfie.
I kept a slot open and while Beeth 7 really belongs in the top 3 or 4 I will vote strategically
Barber -- 1 point (for the only symphony, often mislabeled as #1)
Quote from: Ken B on September 08, 2017, 08:55:37 AM
That's 10 on top Greg, so 10 for Cy Balius, down to 2 for Wolfie.
I kept a slot open and while Beeth 7 really belongs in the top 3 or 4 I will vote strategically
Barber -- 1 point (for the only symphony, often mislabeled as #1)
I got ya,
Ken. And Mr. Balius' 7th has been well represented in the poll.
And quite right.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 08, 2017, 09:24:03 AM
I got ya, Ken. And Mr. Balius' 7th has been well represented in the poll.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 08, 2017, 09:32:24 AM
And quite right.
It is right! You can still change your list to vote for it Karl ... ;D
Not so many votes for Igor's C :'(
Where's
GhostSonata to toss in another vote for the Simpson??
I felt I had to get № 6 in there, and I stand by it!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 08, 2017, 11:02:39 AM
I felt I had to get № 6 in there, and I stand by it!
Only a very tiny error I must admit!
Quote from: Ken B on September 08, 2017, 11:43:43 AM
Only a very tiny error I must admit!
Hang on, revising my ballot to add Peter Mennin's Eighth ;)
Quote from: Brian on September 08, 2017, 11:51:05 AM
Hang on, revising my ballot to add Peter Mennin's Eighth ;)
LOL
Crying for your soul, but laughing too!
Quote from: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 03:06:34 AMInteresting about the VW. The writer and composer's friend Michael Kennedy, regarded it as his best as, I think, does Christo here. I'll stick with No.6 which combines the violence of No.4 with the spiritual qualities of No.5 to create a very disturbing but incredibly thought-provoking synthesis. The Epilogue, described on my old LP as 'an eerie progression through a bleak wasteland' is unlike anything else I know in music.
Funnily enough, I totally agree with you; yet can never choose between the Pastoral and No. 6, my two favourites
ex aequo (and Nos. 9, 8 and 5 close behind). Nos. 3 and 6 of course the two most dissimilar of the whole cycle, though both 'war symphonies'. I think I'll post them here and add No. 9. :D
Quote from: Brian on September 08, 2017, 11:51:05 AM
Hang on, revising my ballot to add Peter Mennin's Eighth ;)
I love this man.
10. Beethoven 3
9. Messiaen Turangalila-Symphonie
8. Ives 4
7. Haydn 100
6. Henze 10
5. Mahler 9
4. Coates, G. 14
3. Martinu 4
2. Norgard 3
1. Schnittke 2
More great lists! I'll extend it until end of Sunday now, seems like there are still a few who might want to post.
Some extra points for some symphonies not mentioned here before:
10 - Vaughan Williams: No. 6
9 - Vaughan Williams: No. 3 ('A Pastoral')
8 – Vaughan Williams: No. 9
7 – Holmboe: No. 8 ('Boreale')
6 – Tubin: No. 6
5 – Brian: No. 1 ('Gothic')
4 – Nielsen: No. 5
3 – Shostakovich: No. 15
2 – Arnold: No. 9
1 – Braga Santos: No. 3
Hope I'm not too late:
10. Beethoven 7
9. Mahler 9
8. Beethoven 9
7. Buckner 9
6. Schubert 9 (traditional numbering, I.e. "The Great")
5. Berio Sinfonia
4. Haydn 92
3. Mozart 41
2. Carter A Symphony of Three Orchestras
1. E. Halffter Sinfonietta
Regards,
Quote from: Christo on September 10, 2017, 10:48:32 AM
Some extra points for some symphonies not mentioned here before:
10 - Vaughan Williams: No. 6
9 - Vaughan Williams: No. 3 ('A Pastoral')
8 – Vaughan Williams: No. 9
7 – Holmboe: No. 8 ('Boreale')
6 – Tubin: No. 6
5 – Brian: No. 1 ('Gothic')
4 – Nielsen: No. 5
3 – Shostakovich: No. 15
2 – Arnold: No. 9
1 – Braga Santos: No. 3
The VW No.6 was on my original list.
Well, it's 'bout time to tally 'em up, Greg! ;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 10, 2017, 07:04:59 PM
Well, it's 'bout time to tally 'em up, Greg! ;D
I was just updating the votes to include the last two. I'll be up for another hour or so, I'll check one more time then I'll post!
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 10, 2017, 07:25:25 PM
I was just updating the votes to include the last two. I'll be up for another hour or so, I'll check one more time then I'll post!
8)
Sounds good my friend!
Thanks for everyone that participated! There were 122 symphonies listed, but I'm only posting the top 30 right now, but if someone really wants to see all of the dozens of works that received a low single digit vote I would be more than happy to post them. ;)
And I would really like to read what you all thought of the results.
The next poll I would like to start is Greatest Concertos, which would be even more interesting because of the mix of all the different instruments available for concertos.
1. Mahler: Symphony No. 9 - 82
2. Brahms: Symphony No. 4 - 78
3. Mahler: Symphony No. 6 - 57
4. Beethoven: Symphony No. 3 – 55
5. Beethoven: No. 9 - 44
6. Ives: Symphony No. 4 - 43
7. Shostakovich: Symphony № 4 - 37
t-8. Bruckner: No. 8 – 34
Mozart: No. 41 - 34
10. Sibelius: No. 7 - 33
11. Bruckner: No. 9 - 32
12. Tchaikovsky: No. 6 "Pathetique" - 30
13. Beethoven: No. 7 - 27
14. Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique - 25
t-15. Nielsen: No. 5 - 23
Stravinsky: Symphony of Psalms: - 23
Shostakovich: Symphony 5 - 23
Schubert: Symphony No.9 - 23
19. Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 5 - 22
20. Brian: No. 1 "Gothic" - 21
21. Webern: Symphony op 21 - 20
22. Messiaen: Turangalila-Symphonie - 19
t-23. Mozart: Symphony No. 38 - 18
Schnittke: Symphony No. 1 - 18
Vaughan Williams: Symphony 6 - 18
26. Mahler: Symphony 2 - 17
t-27. Shostakovich, № 10 in e minor, Op.93. -16
Beethoven 6 - 16
t-29 Sibelius: Symphony No. 6 - 15
Schoenberg: Chamber Symphony No. 1 in E: - 15
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 11, 2017, 08:07:54 PM
Thanks for everyone that participated! There were 122 symphonies listed, but I'm only posting the top 30 right now, but if someone really wants to see all of the dozens of works that received a low single digit vote I would be more than happy to post them. ;)
And I would really like to read what you all thought of the results.
The next poll I would like to start is Greatest Concertos, which would be even more interesting because of the mix of all the different instruments available for concertos.
1. Mahler: Symphony No. 9 - 82
2. Brahms: Symphony No. 4 - 78
3. Mahler: Symphony No. 6 - 57
4. Beethoven: Symphony No. 3 – 55
5. Beethoven: No. 9 - 44
6. Ives: Symphony No. 4 - 43
7. Shostakovich: Symphony № 4 - 37
t-8. Bruckner: No. 8 – 34
Mozart: No. 41 - 34
10. Sibelius: No. 7 - 33
11. Bruckner: No. 9 - 32
12. Tchaikovsky: No. 6 "Pathetique" - 30
13. Beethoven: No. 7 - 27
14. Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique - 25
t-15. Nielsen: No. 5 - 23
Stravinsky: Symphony of Psalms: - 23
Shostakovich: Symphony 5 - 23
Schubert: Symphony No.9 - 23
19. Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 5 - 22
20. Brian: No. 1 "Gothic" - 21
21. Webern: Symphony op 21 - 20
22. Messiaen: Turangalila-Symphonie - 19
t-23. Mozart: Symphony No. 38 - 18
Schnittke: Symphony No. 1 - 18
Vaughan Williams: Symphony 6 - 18
26. Mahler: Symphony 2 - 17
t-27. Shostakovich, № 10 in e minor, Op.93. -16
Beethoven 6 - 16
t-29 Sibelius: Symphony No. 6 - 15
Schoenberg: Chamber Symphony No. 1 in E: - 15
Interesting results indeed. Overall, I like what I see, especially for some choices of mine (Brahms 4, Mahler 6, Beethoven 7, Nielsen 5, Shostakovich 5). The whole list represents very well the tastes of the participants of this forum (including me). The concerto's poll will be cool as well.
Also, I'd like to emphasize the king of this poll: Mahler 9, surpassing any of Beethoven. I expected maybe the 2nd symphony as his most popular, though. I can't complain, the 9th is a complex and fascinating world of emotions with a redemptive ending. A quite worthy work.
Fascinating poll. Sadly I was too late in thinking of (and subsequently posting) my results. It shows the health of this community's tastes that the top 10 isn't totally crammed with Beethoven, as these polls often tend to be.
Quote from: Maestro267 on September 12, 2017, 05:35:08 AM
It shows the health of this community's tastes that the top 10 isn't totally crammed with Beethoven, as these polls often tend to be.
But then again, no
Haydn, Schumann, Mendelssohn and
Enescu in top 30 greatest symphonies? This is insane. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on September 12, 2017, 06:13:15 AM
But then again, no Haydn, Schumann, Mendelssohn and Enescu in top 30 greatest symphonies? This is insane. ;D
There could theoretically be hundreds of votes for
Haydn without one symphony by him being in the top 30, though. 8)
Considering all the Mahler which populates the top 30 (and I am not saying it ought at all to be otherwise), I admit I am a tad surprised we're missing the Brahms Third up there . . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 12, 2017, 06:38:11 AM
Considering all the Mahler which populates the top 30 (and I am not saying it ought at all to be otherwise), I admit I am a tad surprised we're missing the Brahms Third up there . . . .
I approve this message.
Quote from: Maestro267 on September 12, 2017, 05:35:08 AM
Fascinating poll. Sadly I was too late in thinking of (and subsequently posting) my results. It shows the health of this community's tastes that the top 10 isn't totally crammed with Beethoven, as these polls often tend to be.
Meanwhile, when I saw Mahler at the top my first thought was, "Damn, should have put more Beethoven on my ballot."
Quote from: Brian on September 12, 2017, 07:14:52 AM
Meanwhile, when I saw Mahler at the top my first thought was, "Damn, should have put more Beethoven on my ballot."
Imagine how I feel, with Ives on the list at all! ;) :laugh:
Damn! I forgot to vote for La mer. :(
Quote from: North Star on September 12, 2017, 07:19:06 AM
Damn! I forgot to vote for La mer. :(
I'm surprised it didn't make the list actually.
Someone slipped the hawser.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 12, 2017, 10:52:00 AM
Someone slipped the hawser.
I was gonna say something while the pol was still live, and then I thought ... naaaah
Quote from: Ken B on September 12, 2017, 11:42:31 AM
I was gonna say something while the pol was still live, and then I thought ... naaaah
Apparently many of the posters concluded their thoughts of adding La Mer with,
naaaah
Nice work, GSMoeller.
A lot of variety in that top 30 for sure, and a worthy top work!
Quote from: aesthetic on September 12, 2017, 12:09:52 PM
Nice work, GSMoeller.
A lot of variety in that top 30 for sure, and a worthy top work!
Thanks! I have fun putting these together. Go vote on the new one Greatest Concertos!
Quote from: North Star on September 12, 2017, 07:19:06 AM
Damn! I forgot to vote for La mer. :(
Quote from: Ken B on September 12, 2017, 11:42:31 AM
I was gonna say something while the pol was still live, and then I thought ... naaaah
I didn't forget it. I considered listing it along with a dedication to Ken...but then I reconsidered: I figured that joke was getting old ;D
Sarge
I didn't really forget it either...
Where was Klaus Egge's First Symphony?!!! :(
Seriously - great poll. The Ives Symphony 4's position surprised me although I really like the work.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 11, 2017, 08:07:54 PM
Thanks for everyone that participated! There were 122 symphonies listed, but I'm only posting the top 30 right now, but if someone really wants to see all of the dozens of works that received a low single digit vote I would be more than happy to post them. ;)
And I would really like to read what you all thought of the results.
The next poll I would like to start is Greatest Concertos, which would be even more interesting because of the mix of all the different instruments available for concertos.
1. Mahler: Symphony No. 9 - 82
2. Brahms: Symphony No. 4 - 78
3. Mahler: Symphony No. 6 - 57
4. Beethoven: Symphony No. 3 – 55
5. Beethoven: No. 9 - 44
6. Ives: Symphony No. 4 - 43
7. Shostakovich: Symphony № 4 - 37
t-8. Bruckner: No. 8 – 34
Mozart: No. 41 - 34
10. Sibelius: No. 7 - 33
11. Bruckner: No. 9 - 32
12. Tchaikovsky: No. 6 "Pathetique" - 30
13. Beethoven: No. 7 - 27
14. Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique - 25
t-15. Nielsen: No. 5 - 23
Stravinsky: Symphony of Psalms: - 23
Shostakovich: Symphony 5 - 23
Schubert: Symphony No.9 - 23
19. Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 5 - 22
20. Brian: No. 1 "Gothic" - 21
21. Webern: Symphony op 21 - 20
22. Messiaen: Turangalila-Symphonie - 19
t-23. Mozart: Symphony No. 38 - 18
Schnittke: Symphony No. 1 - 18
Vaughan Williams: Symphony 6 - 18
26. Mahler: Symphony 2 - 17
t-27. Shostakovich, № 10 in e minor, Op.93. -16
Beethoven 6 - 16
t-29 Sibelius: Symphony No. 6 - 15
Schoenberg: Chamber Symphony No. 1 in E: - 15
There's only one I dislike, a few I'm more or less indifferent to, but a very strong list from my standpoint all the same.
I would say for the most part the list doesn't surprise me, most of the heavy hitters are represented although having Mahler taking 2 of the top three did.
What I truly was surprised by, was that Mozart's 40th didn't get a strong showing, and same goes for Sibelius' 5th. I love that his 7th cracked the top ten, but I would've believed the 5th was more popular.
Three of the top 4 I voted for. I'm happy 8)
Sarge
As I think about how to cast my votes in the Concerto poll, one of my takeaways from this poll is: Even if I put a great personal favorite in the top, 10-pt slot, it won't place at the end unless there is another voter or two to bespeak it.
I am not disheartened; it is only that I perceive the Nature of the Thing 0:)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 12, 2017, 02:13:50 PMThree of the top 4 I voted for. I'm happy 8)
Sarge
Happy to be average. 8)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 14, 2017, 03:16:45 AM
As I think about how to cast my votes in the Concerto poll, one of my takeaways from this poll is: Even if I put a great personal favorite in the top, 10-pt slot, it won't place at the end unless there is another voter or two to bespeak it.
I am not disheartened; it is only that I perceive the Nature of the Thing 0:)
I completely understand,
Karl. It's why I was asking for more of an objective view,
greatest rather than strictly
favorites in hopes of getting a clearer list of top symphonies. My favorites list would've consisted of at least 7-8 works that only I would've given a score to. Also because I wasn't sure how may would vote, if I knew I could get over 50 - 60 lists rather than 25 then there would be a greater chance of seeing the same works on
favorite lists.
Thank you for participating though, it's a fun little project. :)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 14, 2017, 04:22:05 AM
Thank you for participating though, it's a fun little project. :)
It's all fun and games, until your favorite composer gets voted off the island . . . .
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 14, 2017, 04:22:05 AM
I completely understand, Karl. It's why I was asking for more of an objective view, greatest rather than strictly favorites in hopes of getting a clearer list of top symphonies. My favorites list would've consisted of at least 7-8 works that only I would've given a score to. Also because I wasn't sure how may would vote, if I knew I could get over 50 - 60 lists rather than 25 then there would be a greater chance of seeing the same works on favorite lists.
Thank you for participating though, it's a fun little project. :)
One thing is unclear though - how to define 'greatest'. My issue with these polls is that it covers a potential multitude of reasons. So one can justify any result. For example, because there is no explanation, I cannot understand why Mahler 9 is #1. I don't think it particularly great at all. It certainly isn't a top 20 candidate in my book. And it would be nice if someone could justify their votes. For example, I would think a key justification for a symphony to be great would be some sort of subsequent change directly linked to that work of art. One can see this is Rite of Spring or B3, but not so much in M9 in my view. This is a key reason why I think it totally out of place. I do NOT believe that the apex of someone's work (good as it may be) is necessarily enough to justify a work getting a high rating either. And other posters may disagree., but at least I'll understand why they voted they way they did.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 14, 2017, 04:41:51 AM
One thing is unclear though - how to define 'greatest'. My issue with these polls is that it covers a potential multitude of reasons. So one can justify any result. For example, because there is no explanation, I cannot understand why Mahler 9 is #1. I don't think it particularly great at all. It certainly isn't a top 20 candidate in my book. And it would be nice if someone could justify their votes. For example, I would think a key justification for a symphony to be great would be some sort of subsequent change directly linked to that work of art. One can see this is Rite of Spring or B3, but not so much in M9 in my view. This is a key reason why I think it totally out of place. I do NOT believe that the apex of someone's work (good as it may be) is necessarily enough to justify a work getting a high rating either. And other posters may disagree., but at least I'll understand why they voted they way they did.
This is a Dark Night of the Soul kind of group and Mahler 9 is a Dark Night of the Soul symphony.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 14, 2017, 04:41:51 AM
One thing is unclear though - how to define 'greatest'. My issue with these polls is that it covers a potential multitude of reasons. So one can justify any result. For example, because there is no explanation, I cannot understand why Mahler 9 is #1. I don't think it particularly great at all. It certainly isn't a top 20 candidate in my book. And it would be nice if someone could justify their votes. For example, I would think a key justification for a symphony to be great would be some sort of subsequent change directly linked to that work of art. One can see this is Rite of Spring or B3, but not so much in M9 in my view. This is a key reason why I think it totally out of place. I do NOT believe that the apex of someone's work (good as it may be) is necessarily enough to justify a work getting a high rating either. And other posters may disagree., but at least I'll understand why they voted they way they did.
The profound influence that Mahler's symphonies had on Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern cannot be overstated. Berg, Mahler's true successor, wrote the single most influential (and I think the greatest) opera of the 20th century, and he would not have been able to do it the way he did without Mahler's example as much as his teacher's. Likewise, Schoenberg's ideas about orchestral color and the use of soloistic instruments apart from an ensemble are related to Mahler's own use of the orchestra.
I didn't vote for Mahler's Ninth, masterpiece though I consider it to be, because I admire the Sixth more, and I was keeping strictly to one work per composer. I was a little surprised by its position myself.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 14, 2017, 04:41:51 AM
For example, I would think a key justification for a symphony to be great would be some sort of subsequent change directly linked to that work of art.
The concept in play here, is influence. But I view this in an opposite way. I think that a great work of art should naturally be influential; whereas an influential work of art may not necessarily be great
for its own sake.
In any case, no-one knows what "great" means, so this is all part of that
abstract kind of stuff. :P
Good to see Mahler's 9th on top. 8) It's simply one of the pinnacles of the symphonic repertoire IMHO. I was going to initially vote for it, but I feel the same way about Mahler's 6th (and not to mention many of his other works). ;)
Quote from: aesthetic on September 14, 2017, 12:51:56 PM
I think that a great work of art should naturally be influential
How influential was
Schubert's
Unfinished Symphony? Or his D960 Piano Sonata?
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2017, 11:48:41 AM
How influential was Schubert's Unfinished Symphony? Or his D960 Piano Sonata?
It's like those murals in Pompeii: no fricking influence at all, none, bupkis, nada, for 1700 years.
Quote from: Ken B on September 15, 2017, 11:52:57 AM
It's like those murals in Pompeii: no fricking influence at all, none, bupkis, nada, for 1700 years.
Precisely.
Quote from: Florestan on September 15, 2017, 11:48:41 AM
How influential was Schubert's D960 Piano Sonata?
Alfred Brendel playing D960 is what got me listening to classical music on a regular basis. I heard it in a record store in Washington, DC, in January, 1987, just after buying my first CD player, and I just had to have it. The store was having a sale: 3 CDs on DG-Philips-Decca/London for $25, so I also bought Beethoven's 9th (HvK, 1977) and Brendel's Mozart PCs 23 & 27. And I have never stopped listening to classical music.