GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: premont on April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM

Title: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM
Que, here is my list of some HIP recordings, which are played in HIP style on properly restored Northern or German baroque organs. and which do not constitute parts of complete cycles. The number of candidates is small, - almost all uncompromising HIP recordings are parts of integral recordings.

Collections of chiefly choral-free works:

Ton Koopman 6 CD set for Novalis (already recommended by Que).

Rainer Oster 1 CD for Arte Nova on  the Schnitger organ of Sc.Jacobi, Hamburg, (Arte Nova 74321 63644 2).

Stefan Johannes Bleicher  2 CDs for EBS on the Gabler organ in Weigarten and the Holzhey organ in Weissenau respectively.
On the same Holzhey organ he also recorded a Bach-CD for Arte Nova.

Franz Raml  1 CD for Oehms on the Silbermann organ in the Church of the Court, Dresden.

Jean-Charles Ablitzer 2 CDs for Harmonic Records, France on the Treutmann organ, Goslar-Grauhof.

Hubert Meister 1 CD for Motette on the Silbermann organs in Grosshartmannsdorf and Forchheim (contains the triosonates).

Martin Sander 1 CD for Fermate records on the Wagner organ in Trondheim

Matthias Eisenberg and Felix Friedrich 1 CD each (sold as double midprice set) for Capriccio on the Trost organ in Altenburg.

Robert Clark 2 CDs for Calcante on the Hildebrand organ in Naumburg.

Choralbound works:

Orgelbüchlein:
Rene Saorgin on French Harmonia Mundi.

Clavierübung III:
Edgar Krapp for Berlin Classics on the Wagner organs in Brandenburg and Treuenbrietzen.
or
Felix Friedrich for Motette on the Trost organ in Altenburg.


The CDs of some of the uncompromising HIP Integrals are sold separately. This is true of the Haenssler cycle, the Weinberger cycle (CPO) and the Kooiman cycle (Coronata).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on April 29, 2007, 09:45:57 PM
Premont, thanks for reinstating the Bach Organ Works thread! (btw: it's your thread now! :))

What's more: thanks a bundle for the list, with many items that are new to me and look very intriguing! :)

I'm familiar with a few of the names, but I now really have my work cut out for me! ;D
I didn't know that Kooiman had recorded a cycle - seems interesting.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on April 30, 2007, 01:28:50 AM
Anyone knows this one? Comments are welcome! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7556207.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 30, 2007, 02:27:06 AM
Yes, I have got it in my listening queue. This is the only part of Foccroulle´s integral, which is available at the moment. Didn´t mention it because I haven´t heard it yet.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 30, 2007, 05:02:38 AM
Quote from: Que on April 30, 2007, 01:28:50 AM
Anyone knows this one? Comments are welcome! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7556207.jpg)

Q

Just did the effort to listen to all of it.

The Gottfried Silbermann organ in the Dom of Freiburg is a most spetacular instrument, and it is much used for Bach-recordings ( Alain, Rübsam, Werner Jacob, Christoph Albrecht, Hans Otto et.c.) . On this recording from 1991 the sound is very clear and present, miking at the right distance to my taste.
Foccroulle´s interpretation is smooth and flowing marked by a high degree of spiritual concentration, meditative when needed, and jubilant when needed. Registrations are scholary with a certain preference for sesquialtera- and cornet-like registrations, which I think, Bach would have approved. Articulation generally scholary detached if not as pointed as Kooiman´s or Weinberger´s.
The 2CD-set contains the 18 Leipzigchorales (the 17 and Vor deinen Thron tret Ich) in a rather casual order (not-BWV). As fillers we also get the Canonic variations and the Preludes and Fugues in c-minor BWV 546 and C-major BWV 547. My only chritisism is, that the c-minor Prelude is a bit rushed, detracting from its momumentality despite the use of 16F in manuals and 32F in the pedal.
All in all though, this set can be strongly recommended.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on June 17, 2007, 02:49:02 AM
Thought I'd share some experiences on my recent Bach organ purchases.

First, I got volumes 9-16 of Weinberger's cycle on cpo.
I'm very satisfied with it: good, honest and pointed playing - straight forward with no frills. I like that.
I found volume 13 with Clavier Übung less satisfactory in comparison with the rest.

Listening to these recordings confirmed the importance to me of the use of period organs - they all sound beautiful, some drop dead gorgeous! If this cycle is issued as a boxed set, I will most certainly get it! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2282477.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5820241.jpg)



My other purchase was the Clavier Übung III with Suzuki (BIS).
This recording simply doesn't do it for me. Suzuki's playing is very flowing and that I liked. But in the end I find it all too abstract and detached, and too smooth - he plays a lot legato. Same goes for the choral intermissions: it all sounds very ethereal, but I don't hear the (spiritual) message - I like that concept of very much though! (Believe Koopman did the same on Teldec?)
Finally, the impression of smoothness is enhanced by the modern organ, which lacks IMO character and "grit".

Of the very little number of recordings I know, my favourite recording of Clavier Übung III remains Kay Johannsen (Hänssler).

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/54/406254.jpg)   (http://images.scm-digital.net//objects/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct2/Bilder/gross/092101000.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 20, 2007, 01:12:04 PM
Que, nice to see that you enjoy Weinbergers Bach. I have to agree with your words about his Clavierübung III - or to be more precise, some of the great chorale preludes from the collection, which are performed in a less inspiring way, than I am used to by this interpreter. I also must agree with your words about Suzukis Clavierübung III, which I find rather clinical, the sound of the rather undistinctive organ adding to that impression.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on July 03, 2007, 08:42:21 AM
Another request for your comments - anyone familiar with this series on Berlin Classics?

Johann Sebastian Bach - Das Orgelwerk auf Silbermann Orgeln

(Zweitauseneins has them cheap!  8))

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5008371.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8441708.jpg)

Thanks! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mozart on July 03, 2007, 09:13:56 AM
I just downloaded a 12 cd set, it took 36 hrs. I didn't know what I was getting myself into! These things really should come with a warning.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Expresso on July 03, 2007, 01:26:11 PM

Is that the stereo recording from Walcha or the old mono?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 03, 2007, 01:31:11 PM
Quote from: Que on July 03, 2007, 08:42:21 AM
Another request for your comments - anyone familiar with this series on Berlin Classics?

Johann Sebastian Bach - Das Orgelwerk auf Silbermann Orgeln

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5008371.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8441708.jpg)

The recordings are more than 30 years old, and most of the artists are dead by now. So the style of playing is a bit oldfashioned, but not enough to bother me. The sounds of the different Gottfried Silbermann organs are utterly charming, even if the instruments generally weren´t scientifically restored - as far as I know. Detailled informations about this topic are missing in the booklets. Because of the many different participating organists the artistic level is variable, but most often very good and never less than acceptable. Recorded sound is better than could be anticipated.  
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on July 03, 2007, 06:04:59 PM
Quote from: Erevos on July 03, 2007, 01:26:11 PM
Is that the stereo recording from Walcha or the old mono?

the old stereo I think :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Don on July 03, 2007, 06:15:18 PM
Quote from: Que on June 17, 2007, 02:49:02 AM
Thought I'd share some experiences on my recent Bach organ purchases.

First, I got volumes 9-16 of Weinberger's cycle on cpo.
I'm very satisfied with it: good, honest and pointed playing - straight forward with no frills. I like that.
I found volume 13 with Clavier Übung less satisfactory in comparison with the rest.

Listening to these recordings confirmed the importance to me of the use of period organs - they all sound beautiful, some drop dead gorgeous! If this cycle is issued as a boxed set, I will most certainly get it! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2282477.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5820241.jpg)



My other purchase was the Clavier Übung III with Suzuki (BIS).
This recording simply doesn't do it for me. Suzuki's playing is very flowing and that I liked. But in the end I find it all too abstract and detached, and too smooth - he plays a lot legato. Same goes for the choral intermissions: it all sounds very ethereal, but I don't hear the (spiritual) message - I like that concept of very much though! (Believe Koopman did the same on Teldec?)
Finally, the impression of smoothness is enhanced by the modern organ, which lacks IMO character and "grit".

Of the very little number of recordings I know, my favourite recording of Clavier Übung III remains Kay Johannsen (Hänssler).

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/54/406254.jpg)   (http://images.scm-digital.net//objects/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct2/Bilder/gross/092101000.jpg)

Q

Goodness!  Just the opposite for me.  I find Johannsen a pale imitation compared to Suzuki's magnificent reading.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on July 03, 2007, 08:34:33 PM
Quote from: Mozart on July 03, 2007, 09:13:56 AM
I just downloaded a 12 cd set, it took 36 hrs. I didn't know what I was getting myself into! These things really should come with a warning.

Hope the music makes the same overwhelming impression!  ;D

Quote from: Don on July 03, 2007, 06:15:18 PM
Goodness!  Just the opposite for me.  I find Johannsen a pale imitation compared to Suzuki's magnificent reading.

:)  :)

And what are your feelings on the recordings by Weinberger?

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Don on July 03, 2007, 09:30:32 PM
Quote from: Que on July 03, 2007, 08:34:33 PM
And what are your feelings on the recordings by Weinberger?

Q

Very favorable.  Overall, I love the organs he plays and his very sharp contours.  I do sometimes feel that he lacks some musicality, but nobody is wonderful throughout a Bach cycle.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on July 21, 2007, 07:35:17 AM
I have now listened to the first of the cheap Bach Organ CDs I bought from JPC, namely this one:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2282477.jpg)

I was surprised how little there is reverberation in this recording. On the other hand the sound is very clear. The music (Fugas BWV 575 & BWV 577 + random chorales) doesn't seem to be best Bach. Anyway, I don't regret spending 2 euros for this disc.  :D

P.S. Got to love the cover art of this series by Camille Graeser!  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on July 21, 2007, 07:45:42 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 21, 2007, 07:35:17 AM
I have now listened to the first of the cheap Bach Organ CDs I bought from JPC, namely this one:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2282477.jpg)

I was surprised how little there is reverberation in this recording. On the other hand the sound is very clear. The music (Fugas BWV 575 & BWV 577 + random chorales) doesn't seem to be best Bach. Anyway, I don't regret spending 2 euros for this disc.  :D

P.S. Got to love the cover art of this series by Camille Graeser!  :)

You're right, but if you bought others volumes as well (and I believe you did),
there is more exciting stuff ahead! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on July 21, 2007, 08:03:48 AM
Quote from: Que on July 21, 2007, 07:45:42 AM
You're right, but if you bought others volumes as well (and I believe you did),
there is more exciting stuff ahead! :)

Q

I bought volumes 9-16, two euros each. I'm sure there is very interesting stuff ahead.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on July 24, 2007, 10:17:01 AM
Okay, I have listened Weinberger's volume 10 twice. Much better than volume 9! Now there's just the right amount of reverberation and majesty in the sound.

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 24, 2007, 10:35:52 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 21, 2007, 07:35:17 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2282477.jpg)
I was surprised how little there is reverberation in this recording. On the other hand the sound is very clear.

This depends of course much upon the acoustics of the church in question. You can´t move the organ to the studio for the recording, and by the way how much reverberation, you want, is a matter of taste.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on July 24, 2007, 10:57:37 AM
Quote from: premont on July 24, 2007, 10:35:52 AM
This depends of course much upon the acoustics of the church in question. You can´t move the organ to the studio for the recording, and by the way how much reverberation, you want, is a matter of taste.

This volume 9 in question has been recorded with very near microphones. The direct sound is much stronger than the reverberation. It sounds like the organ was in a large living room instead of a church!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 24, 2007, 01:31:25 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 24, 2007, 10:57:37 AM
This volume 9 in question has been recorded with very near microphones. The direct sound is much stronger than the reverberation. It sounds like the organ was in a large living room instead of a church!

Well, I own the CD in question, and shall investigate this. Probably the problem arises, because the church is rather small.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bogey on July 24, 2007, 01:50:10 PM
For those of you that have multiple recordings, how much does the actual organ used effect the recording sound....I know one obviously has to take into account the performer, venue, sound egineers etc.....  But what are your thoughts on particular organs?  Do you have a favorite?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 04, 2007, 12:45:04 AM
A recommended post from Val: :)

(http://www.cdmail.fr/jaquettes/cd/recto/3149025007353xr.gif)

Quote from: val on November 03, 2007, 01:56:16 AM
J S BACH:     Orgelbüchlein          / André Isoir  (CALIOPE)

One of the most touching works of Bach, consisting on 45 short chorals, each one with a deep symbolism. Most of the chorals were composed between 1713 and 1716.

André Isoir is very poetic and fluent, and the instrument is beautiful. The best version I know of this work.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on November 04, 2007, 05:16:29 AM
Quote from: Bogey on July 24, 2007, 01:50:10 PM
For those of you that have multiple recordings, how much does the actual organ used effect the recording sound....I know one obviously has to take into account the performer, venue, sound egineers etc.....  But what are your thoughts on particular organs?  Do you have a favorite?

Bach performances played on northern (European) baroque style organs, especially originals built by the workshops of (Gottfried) Silbermann, (Christian) Mueller, (Arp) Schnitger etc. are particularly faithful in reproducing the kinds of timbres and tone colours that the composer may have heard and was used to himself.  Various Silbermann's in Saxony and Alsace are often the favourites for organists and listeners alike in this repertory.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on November 04, 2007, 05:30:11 AM
Jacques Oortmerssen's series on Channel Classics is well-recorded (on various famous baroque instruments) but the interpretations are unfortunately quite too literal and unexciting to these ears.  His account of fantasia and fugue in a minor (BWV 543) in vol. 6 sounds really like a non-event compared to the sizzling performance by Lorenzo Ghielmi in his album "Bach and Romanticists."  Ghielmi chose preludes for the same chorales as composed by Bach (from Orgelbuechlein) and Brahms and used baroque and romantic style instruments respectively.  A beautiful album from Winter & Winter.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 04, 2007, 07:46:25 AM
Quote from: Bogey on July 24, 2007, 01:50:10 PM
For those of you that have multiple recordings, how much does the actual organ used effect the recording sound....I know one obviously has to take into account the performer, venue, sound egineers etc.....  But what are your thoughts on particular organs?  Do you have a favorite?

An interest in organ music almost inevitably leads to an interest in historical organs. Since the greater part of informed organists to day uses restored historical organs or competent builded copies, these interests go hand in hand.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 04, 2007, 07:55:20 AM
Quote from: Que on November 04, 2007, 12:45:04 AM

(http://www.cdmail.fr/jaquettes/cd/recto/3149025007353xr.gif)


Isoir´s Bach integral was made during a long period of time and is rather uneven. He got better with time. I find his playing generally brilliant and flowing but often too streamlined, something made possible by the modern organs he preferred to use. The best part of the cycle is IMO the Clavierübung III played on the historical Joseph Gabler organ in Weingarten, whereas the sound of the Grenzing organ he uses much, is less suited for Bach, at least in these ears.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 04, 2007, 08:00:14 AM
Quote from: premont on November 04, 2007, 07:55:20 AM
Isoir´s Bach integral was made during a long period of time and is rather uneven. He got better with time. I find his playing generally brilliant and flowing but often too streamlined, something made possible by the modern organs he preferred to use. The best part of the cycle is IMO the Clavierübung III played on the historical Joseph Gabler organ in Weingarten, whereas the sound of the Grenzing organ he uses much, is less suited for Bach, at least in these ears.

With recommendations by two experts*, I gues this is a winner! :)
Val, Premont, thank you both!  :)


* I believe some members mind me saying that - but I'll do it anyway... 8)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 04, 2007, 08:05:34 AM
Quote from: masolino on November 04, 2007, 05:30:11 AM
Jacques Oortmerssen's series on Channel Classics is well-recorded (on various famous baroque instruments) but the interpretations are unfortunately quite too literal and unexciting to these ears.  His account of fantasia and fugue in a minor (BWV 543) in vol. 6 sounds really like a non-event compared to the sizzling performance by Lorenzo Ghielmi in his album "Bach and Romanticists."   

Van Oortmerssen, hmmm. I agree, he is often conspicuously uneventful. For the same reason I do not "subscribe" to his still incomplete set. However I have acquired four of the CDs because of the organs he uses (NB Bogey look above). I think Oortmerssen somtimes at least succeds in creating a kind of cumulative effect in the longer choral free pieces, e.g. BWV 538 and 540.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on November 05, 2007, 03:04:41 AM
Quote from: premont on November 04, 2007, 07:55:20 AM
Isoir? Bach integral was made during a long period of time and is rather uneven. He got better with time.

I have the Bach AoF and organ concertos (mostly reconstructed arrangements) recorded by Isoir and while liking both, actually listen more to the latter (Martin Gester is the conductor).  I believe the light textures/registration
favoured by Isoir (as pointed out above by Premont) sound probably more appealing in a concerto than in solo music.  Does anyone know whether Isoir has recorded Handel's concertos? 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 10, 2008, 06:01:47 AM
Repost:

cpo has just issued this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ch6MV8HFL._SS500_.jpg)

I've had some positive experiences with Weinberger in the past: HIP approach, beautiful historical organs, well recorded, played with insight and (mostly) gusto. Though Weinberger lacks the musical brilliance of - say - a Jean-Charles Ablitzer, Weinberger has also his less remarkble and plain "solid" moments of playing.

This set is $245 at Amazon.com (preorder) but €50 at jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/artnum/7006321)! (which owns cpo)  ::)
Well, we know that the US dollar has declined a bit but this is a rather steep difference.... ::)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on November 10, 2008, 06:08:56 AM
Quote from: traverso on November 04, 2007, 05:30:11 AM
Jacques Oortmerssen's series on Channel Classics is well-recorded (on various famous baroque instruments) but the interpretations are unfortunately quite too literal and unexciting to these ears. 

I agree with the opinions but not the label - it's Challenge.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 10, 2008, 06:14:50 AM
And I'm considering these:

(http://www.dejongdejong.nl/images/bookletbachfront.jpg)(http://www.dejongdejong.nl/images/bachcantatasvol.2.jpg)(http://www.dejongdejong.nl/images/bookletvol301copy.jpg)

The idea of four hands organ arrangements of movements from the cantatas, performed on Dutch historical organs, seems pretty irresistible to me! :)
And it sounds good... 8)

AUDIA SAMPLES (links open Windows Media Player):

Concerto super: Was mein Gott will,das g'scheh allzeit (BWV 111/1)
canto fermo in soprano > audiofragment  (http://www.dejongdejong.nl/downloads/bwv111fragment.wma)[615 KB]

Adagio assai BWV 12/1 > audiofragment  (http://www.dejongdejong.nl/downloads/bwv12fragment.wma)[477 KB]

And more information on the site of the performers, two brothers, HERE (http://dejongdejong.nl/english/).

And the link for Harry HERE (http://dejongdejong.nl/)! ;D

Part I - the organ in the Martinikerk in Bolsward:              Part II - the organ in the Grote of Jacobijnekerk in Leeuwarden:

(http://www.dejongdejong.nl/images/hinzsorgelbolsward.jpg) (http://dejongdejong.nl/images/muellerleeuwarden.jpg)

Part III - the Hinsz-organ in the Bovenkerk in Kampen:

(http://dejongdejong.nl/images/kampenhoofdorgel.jpg)

Mouthwatering! 8)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on November 23, 2008, 10:14:18 AM
The complete organ works, plus the AoF, for $25. On 5 non-hybrid SACDs.  :'(

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/SO_BIS/BISSACD1527-28.htm

Do I understand them correctly? They've used SACD just to store 17 CDs worth of music, and this doesn't have the any benefits sonically?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 23, 2008, 10:24:20 AM
Quote from: opus67 on November 23, 2008, 10:14:18 AM
The complete organ works, plus the AoF, for $25. On 5 non-hybrid SACDs.  :'(

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/SO_BIS/BISSACD1527-28.htm

Do I understand them correctly? They've used SACD just to store 17 CDs worth of music, and this doesn't have the any benefits sonically?

So it seems, and unplayable on ordinary CD-players.
But you can get the same recordings in the normal format on Brilliant Classics.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on November 23, 2008, 10:27:16 AM
Quote from: Que on November 23, 2008, 10:24:20 AM
But you can get the same recordings in the normal format on Brilliant Classics.
Q

Oh. I didn't know that. Thanks. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 23, 2008, 12:01:44 PM
Quote from: Que on November 23, 2008, 10:24:20 AM

But you can get the same recordings in the normal format on Brilliant Classics.

This is not quite true, as Fagius´ AoF is missing in the Brilliant release.

This is BTW not a great loss in my opinion.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Norbeone on November 23, 2008, 02:03:05 PM
Quote from: Que on November 10, 2008, 06:14:50 AM
And I'm considering these:



The idea of four hands organ arrangements of movements from the cantatas, performed on Dutch historical organs, seems pretty irresistible to me! :)
And it sounds good... 8)

AUDIA SAMPLES (links open Windows Media Player):

Concerto super: Was mein Gott will,das g'scheh allzeit (BWV 111/1)
canto fermo in soprano > audiofragment  (http://www.dejongdejong.nl/downloads/bwv111fragment.wma)[615 KB]

Adagio assai BWV 12/1 > audiofragment  (http://www.dejongdejong.nl/downloads/bwv12fragment.wma)[477 KB]
Mouthwatering! 8)

Q


Thanks for posting these. They sound quite amazing!

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 24, 2008, 12:48:29 PM
Yes, Bach boys and girls - what to make of these recent reissues? :o :)

I'm getting a choice overload... ::)

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/4/2/9/0794881903924.jpg)   (http://www.images-chapitre.com/ima0/big1/060/11571060.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 24, 2008, 01:58:57 PM
Quote from: Que on July 03, 2007, 08:42:21 AM
Another request for your comments - anyone familiar with this series on Berlin Classics?

Johann Sebastian Bach - Das Orgelwerk auf Silbermann Orgeln

(Zweitauseneins has them cheap!  8))

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5008371.jpg)  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000DMJT/nectarandambr-20) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8441708.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000AG5O/nectarandambr-20)

Thanks! :)
Q

I don't have the complete set (45 Euros and less on Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000TGF1G8/nectarandambr-21), $77 and less on Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000TGF1G8/nectarandambr-20) -- but I've lobbied Berlin Classics (so far unsuccessfully) to send it over, alright. I did buy several volumes of this when Tower went out of business, and I must say that I did not regret buying any of them. I like that sumptuous, comfortable sound (distortion happens here and there, reminding me perhaps of the tapes my dad made for me of the Bach organ works when I was a wee lad) and the slightly indulgent playing on these moderate-sized instruments. I also quite liked Kevin Bowyer's (similarly luxurious) style in the three, four copies I picked up from that cycle. (Organ Mass, for example.)

But having worked my way through Weinberger over Thanksgiving, I must say that I like his slightly dryer, understated approach quite a bit, too. Especially in the smaller works that works very well... although I like an organist who juices the "biggest hits" a little more. To that effect, Karl Richter is still absolutely essential (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006ZFQMQ/nectarandambr-20). And I like Isoir's AoF (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00020HD7G/nectarandambr-20) quite a bit better. Unfortunately (??) it's the only part of his Bach cycle I have. But then, I'd have too many, anyway. Stockmeier  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009DIR/nectarandambr-20)still somewhere on the shelves, too - Fagius, of course [bec. part of the Brilliant box]... and plans on getting one of the Walcha sets, too.

Does anyone have opinions (informed ones, preferably) on Walcha's stereo set (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SAAX/nectarandambr-20) [mouse-over link for small picture of cover] and incomplete mono set (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000U1NH4/nectarandambr-20)? And what kind of a re-issue is this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000E6UL6I/nectarandambr-20)? (Presumably the out-of-copyright mono set??) And anyone experience with Knud Vad's set (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000EPFGS2/nectarandambr-20), available on SACD for "an apple & an egg"? (Well, in Europe/Germany, at least (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000EPFGS2/nectarandambr-21).)


From my "Best of 2008 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html)" choices for WETA:
Weinberger doesn't aim for bombast (near-impossible, on the historic instruments from Saxony and Thuringia, anyway), and he is not the most impressive in some of the 'biggest hits' works. (Karl Richter's 3 CD set is still a mandatory addition to any Bach organ collection, no matter who the interpreter). But apart from minor quibbles, it is a magnificent complete set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 18, 2009, 02:42:17 AM
(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/6/2/3/0794881831326.jpg)

Recently got this. Diapason d'Or & Grand Prix du Disque, and all that. And I know the recording has quite a few admirers, but to me it's a bit of a disappointment really...  ::)
I feel it's underpowered and underarticulated. Sounds actually rather "old fashioned" in approach. I'm not against the use of legato in Bach organ works, but this is clearly overdone IMO.
One and a half hour of smooth, whispering Bach is too much for me. If this is the best Isoir has to offer, I'll happily pass over the rest, no offence! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 18, 2009, 08:17:01 AM
Any opinions on the Margaret Phillips cycle on the Regent label?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on February 10, 2009, 06:13:58 AM
(http://prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692817.jpg) (http://prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Warner%2BClassics/2564692817)

Click on image for more info.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 10, 2009, 08:55:48 AM
Quote from: Que on January 18, 2009, 02:42:17 AM
(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/6/2/3/0794881831326.jpg)
Diapason d'Or & Grand Prix du Disque,

Which, as we know, are good indicators of the Frenchness of the product.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 10, 2009, 10:54:20 AM
Quote from: opus67 on February 10, 2009, 06:13:58 AM
(http://prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692817.jpg) (http://prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Warner%2BClassics/2564692817)

Click on image for more info.



Oooh yessss, that I want! ;D

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 10, 2009, 07:52:58 PM
Here are the Bach CD-sets in my collection.

Lionel Rogg      Complete Bach Organ Works       EMI (LP)
Werner Jacob   Complete Bach Organ Works       EMI
Helmut Walcha Complete Bach Organ Works       Document (historical)
Helmut Walcha Complete Bach Organ Works       Archive
Hans Fagius     Complete Bach Organ Works       Brilliant Classics
Peter Hurford   Complete Bach Organ Works       London

I also have many single CD's of Bach Organ Works on Erato by Marie-Claire Alain, quite a good number of CD's by Chorzempa on Philips, by Karl Richter and Simon Preston on DG, etc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 11, 2009, 03:57:46 AM
Quote from: opus67 on February 10, 2009, 06:13:58 AM
(http://prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692817.jpg)[/url
(http://prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Warner%2BClassics/2564692817)

This set, I take it, differs from this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rByPTbKZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007OP15S/goodmusicguide-20)

Because about the latter, I've heard some very unflattering things.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jwinter on February 11, 2009, 05:19:35 AM
My taste for Bach on the organ seems to be a bit old-fashioned.  I have Walcha's stereo set, and enjoy it a great deal.  I also have a couple of singles from Werner Jacob and E Powers Biggs (best organist name ever).

If I wanted to try a disc or two of more "modern" Bach organ recordings, what would you recommend?  Preferably something that has a good version of the Passacaglia & Fugue (yes, I know it's probably the organ equivalent of an old warhorse, but I love that piece...).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 11, 2009, 05:42:53 AM
Quote from: jwinter on February 11, 2009, 05:19:35 AM
My taste for Bach on the organ seems to be a bit old-fashioned.  I have Walcha's stereo set, and enjoy it a great deal.  I also have a couple of singles from Werner Jacob and E Powers Biggs (best organist name ever).

If I wanted to try a disc or two of more "modern" Bach organ recordings, what would you recommend?  Preferably something that has a good version of the Passacaglia & Fugue (yes, I know it's probably the organ equivalent of an old warhorse, but I love that piece...).

BWV 582 is one of my absolute favorites, too.

There is a lovely recording of 5 versions of 582 on Signum. Unfortunately not easily available in the US or UK, but still in Germany and France (via Amazon).

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Z9XNMD95L._SL500_AA240_.gif)
AmazonUK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024BOT/nectarandambrUK-21) - AmazonGermany (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024BOT/nectarandambr-21) - AmazonFrance (http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024BOT/nectarandambrFR-21)

The "straight" performance--on an organ of Bach's time without fancy register changes--might be the most compelling one. Very simple, very no-nonsense... and establishing precisely that necessary "necessarily, compelling, inescapable momentum" that makes it so special.
Also includes Two Pianos (very good), solo piano, Stokowski-orchestral, and Liszt-Organ versions.

This isn't modern, either, but it also includes a sublime Passacaglia and is in any case the best 3-CD set of Bach organ music that can be had: Karl Richter on DG (mentioned at some length in my "Best of 2005 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html)" and having only grown since, in my appreciation.)

Among modern Bach organ performances that also include a wonderful Passacaglia, I'd chose Bowyers. It's Volume 9 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000007NG4/nectarandambr-20) of his series on Nimbus.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/SZLkYEWXgrI/AAAAAAAAAto/Lyjpk2JCxuw/s400/04+fourth+step.JPG)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/SZLkYKxcLgI/AAAAAAAAAtw/Ip-r6PGDTbg/s400/07+pray.JPG)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/SZLk665pGSI/AAAAAAAAAt4/zbCYCZhaG2o/s400/08+and+have+it+answered.JPG)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 11, 2009, 06:03:50 AM
Quote from: jwinter on February 11, 2009, 05:19:35 AM
My taste for Bach on the organ seems to be a bit old-fashioned.  I have Walcha's stereo set, and enjoy it a great deal.  I also have a couple of singles from Werner Jacob and E Powers Biggs (best organist name ever).

If I wanted to try a disc or two of more "modern" Bach organ recordings, what would you recommend?  Preferably something that has a good version of the Passacaglia & Fugue (yes, I know it's probably the organ equivalent of an old warhorse, but I love that piece...).

Check out "Baroque Organ Triology" on the Pro Organo label played by Claudia Dumschat.  Wonderful performances of BWV 582 and a few other Bach works.  Also has a couple of Buxtehude and Bruhns organ works.  Easily one of my favorite organ discs of baroque music.  BUT, nobody plays BWV 582 as well as Biggs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jwinter on February 11, 2009, 06:13:12 AM
Thanks for the suggestions!  :)  
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 11, 2009, 11:09:11 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 11, 2009, 03:57:46 AM
This set, I take it, differs from this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rByPTbKZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007OP15S/goodmusicguide-20)

Because about the latter, I've heard some very unflattering things.


Yes, they are different. The latter are the recordings previously issued on the Swiss Novalis label.
I'm surprised about what you heard about - FWIW I think it's top notch Bach organ playing and I believe I'm not alone in this opinion.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 11, 2009, 11:42:54 AM
Quote from: Que on February 11, 2009, 11:09:11 AM
Yes, they are different. The latter are the recordings previously issued on the Swiss Novalis label.
I'm surprised about what you heard about - FWIW I think it's top notch Bach organ playing and I believe I'm not alone in this opinion.

Q

No, you are not alone in this opinion, except maybe concerning vol. One (with BWV 565 and 542), which I find a tad too willful and overembellished - often the problem with Koopman.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 11, 2009, 04:53:34 PM
Schübler Chorales are among my most favorite Bach organ pieces. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 10:22:50 AM
I find this historical set by Walcha an excellent set to own.  I am a little half way through the set.  For under $20, this was heck of a bargain and the SQ is quite good too ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516sJ6gYtzL._SS400_.jpg)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 13, 2009, 01:32:56 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 10:22:50 AM
I find this historical set by Walcha an excellent set to own.  ... and the SQ is quite good too ...

What is SQ??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 13, 2009, 01:33:59 PM
Quote from: premont on February 13, 2009, 01:32:56 PM
What is SQ??

Audiophile-speak for "sound quality".
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 01:34:30 PM
Quote from: premont on February 13, 2009, 01:32:56 PM
What is SQ??

sound quality ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 13, 2009, 01:48:58 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 01:34:30 PM
sound quality ...

Thanks. For a moment I thought, you meant Stereo Quality, and this is a mono recording.
BTW compared to the DG original release, the Membram release has obviously been "injected" with some ambience, altogether tastefully done, but constituting an unnecessary addition. But still the Membran release is a steal.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 01:52:15 PM
Quote from: premont on February 13, 2009, 01:48:58 PM
Thanks. For a moment I thought, you meant Stereo Quality, and this is a mono recording.
BTW compared to the DG original release, the Membram release has obviously been "injected" with some ambience, altogether tastefully done, but constituting an unnecessary addition. But still the Membran release is a steal.

I also have the Archive version, which is still in cellophane.  I have not even finished listenng to this historical set yet. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 14, 2009, 12:05:21 AM
Quote from: premont on February 13, 2009, 01:48:58 PM
Thanks. For a moment I thought, you meant Stereo Quality, and this is a mono recording.
BTW compared to the DG original release, the Membram release has obviously been "injected" with some ambience, altogether tastefully done, but constituting an unnecessary addition. But still the Membran release is a steal.

Could be LP transfers?

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 14, 2009, 01:56:41 AM
Quote from: Que on February 14, 2009, 12:05:21 AM
Could be LP transfers?

Q

Yes, certainly LP transfers. But still the ambience is added compared to the original recordings.
I know, because I own a considerable part of the original Archive LPs as well as the Archive The Original´s CD release  - and of course the Membran release.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 14, 2009, 01:58:38 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 01:52:15 PM
I also have the Archive version, which is still in cellophane.  I have not even finished listenng to this historical set yet. 

The Archive The Originals mono CD box? Well you may find the SQ of this preferable.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 06:28:11 AM
Quote from: premont on February 14, 2009, 01:58:38 AM
The Archive The Originals mono CD box? Well you may find the SQ of this preferable.

No, it is in full stereo and cost a bit more than the mono box from DOCUMENT.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 14, 2009, 07:45:43 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 06:28:11 AM
No, it is in full stereo and cost a bit more than the mono box from DOCUMENT.

This is his later stereo integral, a different recording.
I must conclude, that you are well served with his two integrals.
Both are (IMO) a must for a lover of Bach´s organ music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 08:32:44 AM
Quote from: premont on February 14, 2009, 07:45:43 AM
This is his later stereo integral, a different recording.
I must conclude, that you are well served with his two integrals.
Both are (IMO) a must for a lover of Bach´s organ music.

I have four other sets of Bach Complete Organ Works and I should be set unless something exceptional comes along, which I seriously doubt ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 14, 2009, 09:18:17 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 08:32:44 AM
I have four other sets of Bach Complete Organ Works and I should be set unless something exceptional comes along, which I seriously doubt ...

Well, I have twenty-seven!  :o :o :o
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 09:24:17 AM
Quote from: premont on February 14, 2009, 09:18:17 AM
Well, I have twenty-seven!  :o :o :o

27 sets of Bach Complete Organ Works?  That is at least 300 CD's.  The smallest set I have consists of 10 CD's (depending on how the works are packaged) and I have 7 sets of CD's on these works ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on February 14, 2009, 09:33:15 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 09:24:17 AM
27 sets of Bach Complete Organ Works?  That is at least 300 CD's.  

Yeah, crazy. I have 3 Naxos and 8 CPO discs of Bach's organ works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: The new erato on February 14, 2009, 09:37:58 AM
I'm listening to the Little Organ Book from the Membran set and find it very fine. I think I paid 9 euros for it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 09:43:20 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 14, 2009, 09:33:15 AM
Yeah, crazy. I have 3 Naxos and 8 CPO discs of Bach's organ works.

I must have at least a half-dozen Bach organ works by Wolfgang Rubsam on Naxos, which I forgot to mention.  I doubt I have the full volume though since Naxos tends to sell them as singles rather than a set and I just do not have the patience to hunt out the individual singles ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 14, 2009, 09:56:18 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 08:32:44 AM
I have four other sets of Bach Complete Organ Works and I should be set unless something exceptional comes along, which I seriously doubt ...

I only have two complete sets and don't intend on increasing the number.  Big boxes are not my thing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 10:12:53 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 14, 2009, 09:56:18 AM
I only have two complete sets and don't intend on increasing the number.  Big boxes are not my thing.

As I posted earlier, there are probably not many more than a half-dozen sets of Complete Bach Organ Works out there that are worth collecting.  I have trouble coming up with more than ten organists, dead or alive, whose recordings of these works are worth collecting in my opinion.  Helmut Walcha definitely tops this list ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 14, 2009, 10:51:34 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 10:12:53 AM
As I posted earlier, there are probably not many more than a half-dozen sets of Complete Bach Organ Works out there that are worth collecting.  I have trouble coming up with more than ten organists, dead or alive, whose recordings of these works are worth collecting in my opinion.  Helmut Walcha definitely tops this list ...

Must be because you have not heard them. Most of them are excellent each in their own right.

Walcha first recording
Walcha second recording
Alain second recording
Alain third recrding
Rogg first recording
Rogg second recording
Rogg third recording
Kraft
Chapuis
Isoir
Vernet
Jacob
Rübsam first recording
Rübsam second recording
Lagacé
Weinberger
Ritchie
Köbler, Otto et alii
Vad
Fagius
Herrick
Preston
Stockmeier
Corti
Hurford
Johannesen, Bryndorf et alii
Koopman
Koiiman
Eisenberg

Twenty-nine as far as I can count
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 11:03:03 AM
Quote from: premont on February 14, 2009, 10:51:34 AM
Must be because you have not heard them. Most of them are excellent each in their own right.

Walcha first recording
Walcha second recording
Alain second recording
Alain third recrding
Rogg first recording
Rogg second recording
Rogg third recording
Kraft
Chapuis
Isoir
Vernet
Jacob
Rübsam first recording
Rübsam second recording
Lagacé
Weinberger
Ritchie
Köbler, Otto et alii
Vad
Fagius
Herrick
Preston
Stockmeier
Corti
Hurford
Johannesen, Bryndorf et alii
Koopman
Koiiman
Eisenberg

Twenty-nine as far as I can count

Did Simon Preston ever record the Complete Bach Organ Works?  I have seen about a half-dozen of his singles over the year.  I have 2 sets of Walcha, 1 set each by Werner Jacobs, Lionel Rogg, Peter Hurford, Hans Fagius and probably have close to the full set by Alain and Rubsam.  I have over 1000 CD's/LP's on works of JS Bach, which cover just about all his major works and have zero desire to expand much more on my current organ works collection.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 14, 2009, 11:13:31 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 11:03:03 AM
Did Simon Preston ever record the Complete Bach Organ Works?  I have seen about a half-dozen of his singles over the year.  I have 2 sets of Walcha, 1 set each by Werner Jacobs, Lionel Rogg, Peter Hurford, Hans Fagius and probably have close to the full set by Alain and Rubsam.  I have over 1000 CD's/LP's on works of JS Bach, which cover just about all his major works and have zero desire to expand much more on my current organ works collection.

Simon Prestons integral was released by DG approximately seven years ago. Of the above mentioned his is BTW the set I would recommend the least. Next Chapuis´.

But you seem to be better served than most without adding Preston to your collection.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 14, 2009, 11:15:27 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 14, 2009, 09:56:18 AM
I only have two complete sets and don't intend on increasing the number.  Big boxes are not my thing.

Long time ago you wrote, that you once upon a time spent three years listening exclusively to organ works by Bach. Did you actually listen to the same two sets all the time?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 14, 2009, 12:16:52 PM
Quote from: premont on February 14, 2009, 11:15:27 AM
Long time ago you wrote, that you once upon a time spent three years listening exclusively to organ works by Bach. Did you actually listen to the same two sets all the time?

Of course not.  Most of my listening was through single or double discs.  As you know, there's a ton of Bach organ recordings that have been made.  Just last night, I was listening to some Rogg, Koopman, Phillips, Walcha, Richter, Suzuki, Vernet and Hurford.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 14, 2009, 12:19:35 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 10:12:53 AM
As I posted earlier, there are probably not many more than a half-dozen sets of Complete Bach Organ Works out there that are worth collecting.  I have trouble coming up with more than ten organists, dead or alive, whose recordings of these works are worth collecting in my opinion.  Helmut Walcha definitely tops this list ...

Totally disagree.  There are many dozens of excellent Bach organists.  Another thing - if you want a wide variety of the best of Bach organ recordings, you need to get off the "complete set" kick.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 12:28:43 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 14, 2009, 12:19:35 PM
Totally disagree.  There are many dozens of excellent Bach organists.  Another thing - if you want a wide variety of the best of Bach organ recordings, you need to get off the "complete set" kick.

Besides my seven complete sets, I do have many CD's by individual organists.  I happen to have a good number of CD's of Bach organ works by Daniel Chorzempa, who I have found to be an excellent organist and an American.  I also have a good number of CD's by Payne, Preston and Heiller.  I am pretty well covered ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 12:41:14 PM
I am aware that Ton Koopman is a terrific organist.  I only have his recordings on organ works by Handel and John Stanley and do not have one CD on Bach organ works by him.  Perhaps I should get started with Koopman.  I have Sweelinck's organ works by Herrick and Liszt's Complete Organ Works by Stefan Johannes Bleicher and again no Bach organ works by either.  Stefan Johannes Bleicher is a promising German organist and will probably record the set at some point.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 01:14:41 PM
Here is what looks like a partial set since it only has 6 CD's.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007OP15S/sr=1-1/qid=1234649451/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1234649451&sr=1-1&seller=
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 14, 2009, 03:03:52 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 12:28:43 PM
Besides my seven complete sets, I do have many CD's by individual organists.  I happen to have a good number of CD's of Bach organ works by Daniel Chorzempa, who I have found to be an excellent organist and an American.  I also have a good number of CD's by Payne, Preston and Heiller.  I am pretty well covered ...

Have you looked into primarily organ labels including Loft, Pro Organo, Calcante, Priory and Gothic?  There's some gold from those labels that's every bit as good as the Bach organists we talk frequently about such as Walcha, Koopman, etc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 03:17:32 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 14, 2009, 03:03:52 PM
Have you looked into primarily organ labels including Loft, Pro Organo, Calcante, Priory and Gothic?  There's some gold from those labels that's every bit as good as the Bach organists we talk frequently about such as Walcha, Koopman, etc.

I have CD's by some smaller labels such as ARCANA, OPUS111, Calliope, Priory, Chamade and Tactus, etc.  I just orderd the WTC by Jill Crossland on Signum, the first time I purchased CD's released by this small English label.  I have been collecting the organ works by Johann Ludwig Krebs on the Priory label and I think I am 1 CD away from completing the set of his recorded works on Priory.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2009, 10:15:21 AM
I got the Herrick's set (Hyperion, 16 cds) two or three days ago. In the fourth cd of the set -named The Toccatas and Passacaglia- a strange noise is clearly listened in the 3rd track (1:15), at the beginning of the beautiful Toccata, Adagio and Fugue BWV 564  :'(. Is just my cd? Or a recording fault?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 15, 2009, 10:20:21 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2009, 10:15:21 AM
I got the Herrick's set (Hyperion, 16 cds) two or three days ago. In the fourth cd of the set -named The Toccatas and Passacaglia- a strange noise is clearly listened in the 3rd track (1:15), at the beginning of the beautiful Toccata, Adagio and Fugue BWV 564  :'(. Is just my cd? Or a recording fault?

No clue, I do not own the set.  It could also be a defect in certain production batch where you set came from.  The member who has 29 versions of Bach Organ Works has this set.  Maybe he can check his set for you ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 15, 2009, 11:37:10 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2009, 10:15:21 AM
I got the Herrick's set (Hyperion, 16 cds) two or three days ago. In the fourth cd of the set -named The Toccatas and Passacaglia- a strange noise is clearly listened in the 3rd track (1:15), at the beginning of the beautiful Toccata, Adagio and Fugue BWV 564  :'(. Is just my cd? Or a recording fault?

I will try a listen to my item of this CD to morrow and report back to you, but there is no noise - as far as I can recall.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 15, 2009, 11:40:31 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2009, 10:15:21 AM
I got the Herrick's set (Hyperion, 16 cds) two or three days ago. In the fourth cd of the set -named The Toccatas and Passacaglia- a strange noise is clearly listened in the 3rd track (1:15), at the beginning of the beautiful Toccata, Adagio and Fugue BWV 564  :'(. Is just my cd? Or a recording fault?

I just checked it out.  I don't have the set, but I acquired the Toccatas and Passacaglia disc when it was first released.

You are correct, Antoine.  I hear that snippet of interference exactly at 1:15 of the 3rd track; only lasts a fraction of a second.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2009, 12:23:53 PM
What a pity because it's a beautiful performance! But at least I'm not the one guy in the world with that horrible noise  >:D. Thanks, guys; especially, Bulldog.

BTW, Premont, what do you think about Corti's recordings? I have heard some pieces and they sounded very, very engaging.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 15, 2009, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2009, 12:23:53 PM
What a pity because it's a beautiful performance! But at least I'm not the one guy in the world with that horrible noise  >:D. Thanks, guys; especially, Bulldog.


You're welcome.  Whenever 1:15 is coming up, lower the volume. 8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 15, 2009, 12:37:04 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2009, 12:23:53 PM
What a pity because it's a beautiful performance! But at least I´m not the one guy in the world with that horrible noise  >:D. Thanks, guys; especially, Bulldog.

BTW, Premont, what do you think about Corti's recordings? I have heard some pieces and they sounded very, very engaging.

I like his playing, informed, fresh and filled with emotion. I am not that happy about the Tamburini organs, he uses, and even if they are "classical" in layout, I find their sound less than ideal for Bach. And the actual sound of some of the recordings is rather diffuse (the Art of Fuge maybe the worst), but still the interpretations are rewarding listening.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2009, 01:54:10 PM
Thanks, Premont. I was considering The Art of Fugue and The Little Organ Book, but –after your words about the acoustics- I'll search some examples.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 15, 2009, 01:59:02 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2009, 01:54:10 PM
Thanks, Premont. I was considering The Art of Fugue and The Little Organ Book, but –after your words about the acoustics- I'll search some examples.

I am not sure, that compressed examples will be sufficiently illustrative.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 15, 2009, 02:10:40 PM
Link to the Bach organ music thread in the old GMG forum:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13613.0.html
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2009, 02:37:19 PM
That is a real problem  ???. It seems that the compressed files don't work very well with some ancient instruments (clavichords, lute-harpsichords, organs). And those discs are rather expensive and not readily available... the worst of all possible worlds.

It will be interesting to read that old thread; thanks, Premont.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 09:50:33 AM
Anyone familiar with the organist Margaret Phillips?

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/REGCD254.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 16, 2009, 10:21:04 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 09:50:33 AM
Anyone familiar with the organist Margaret Phillips?

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/REGCD254.jpg)

I have heard this double CD once - half a year ago, when I got it. Since then I have acquired the three other double CDs, she has released so far. But they are in my listening queue, at the moment I concentrate upon LvB´s String Quartets.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 10:25:49 AM
Quote from: premont on February 16, 2009, 10:21:04 AM
I have heard this double CD once - half a year ago, when I got it. Since then I have acquired the three other double CDs, she has released so far. But they are in my listening queue, at the moment I concentrate upon LvB´s String Quartets.

I will need to finish listening to my 60-CD set of Bach Cantatas by Harnoncourt before I make any new sizable CD purchase.  The Cantatas set is still in its cellophane.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 16, 2009, 12:04:19 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 09:50:33 AM
Anyone familiar with the organist Margaret Phillips?

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/REGCD254.jpg)

I have vols. 3 and 4 from her cycle.  Very enjoyable performances, but nothing special.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 01:11:10 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 16, 2009, 12:04:19 PM
I have vols. 3 and 4 from her cycle.  Very enjoyable performances, but nothing special.

So they are no more than average performance?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 16, 2009, 01:59:41 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 01:11:10 PM
So they are no more than average performance?

They are probably better than average, but here's the problem - It's nice when at least one piece from a disc tells you "music doesn't get any better than this".  This happens regularly from Rogg and a few others.  With Phillips, no performance reaches the heights, at least not yet.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 02:05:01 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 16, 2009, 01:59:41 PM
They are probably better than average, but here's the problem - It's nice when at least one piece from a disc tells you "music doesn't get any better than this".  This happens regularly from Rogg and a few others.  With Phillips, no performance reaches the heights, at least not yet.

Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland by Lionel Rogg on this EMI CD is just superb.  I have this CD for a number of years ...

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 16, 2009, 06:40:22 PM
Tonight I was reading the Bach/organ thread in the old forum. In that thread Premont recommended the 2nd complete set by M-C Alain (recorded between 1978 and 1980), although he pointed out that it was OOP in that time. But currently that set is available again in a box with 15 cds at a bargain price. IMHO a must-have:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann%20Sebastian%20Bach%3A%20Orgelwerke%20(Ges.-Aufn.)/hnum/6382298

Finally, a stupid question: Bulldog, are you the former Don?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 06:43:02 PM
This Bach Organ Works set by Ton Koopman on Brilliant cannot possibly be the full set.  Amazon lists only 6 CD's for this set and there is no reason to think this is an MP3 set ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rByPTbKZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 06:45:03 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 16, 2009, 06:40:22 PM
Tonight I was reading the Bach/organ thread in the old forum. In that thread Premont recommended the 2nd complete set by M-C Alain (recorded between 1978 and 1980), although he pointed out that it was OOP in that time. But currently that set is available again in a box with 15 cds at a bargain price. IMHO a must-have:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann%20Sebastian%20Bach%3A%20Orgelwerke%20(Ges.-Aufn.)/hnum/6382298

Finally, a stupid question: Bulldog, are you the former Don?


I have most of the original CD singles by Marie-Claire Alain on Erato ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 16, 2009, 06:53:05 PM
Are you speaking about the 2nd integral recording? Because the third is on Erato too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 06:55:09 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 16, 2009, 06:53:05 PM
Are you speaking about the 2nd integral recording? Because the third is on Erato too.

I bought most of her singles in the mid 80's through early 90's.  They could be her second recording ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 16, 2009, 07:02:27 PM
That's right because the third integral was recorded in the middle of the nineties, when several historic organs were available after the fall of the Berlin Wall
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 07:09:45 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 16, 2009, 07:02:27 PM
That's right because the third integral was recorded in the middle of the nineties, when several historic organs were available after the fall of the Berlin Wall

Her third recording is particularly interesting as some pieces were actually performed on the same organs JS Bach himself had used.  This would not have been possible before the fall of the Berlin Wall as these organs are all located in the former East Germany ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 16, 2009, 07:18:03 PM
In this nice interview M-C Alain explains her reasons in order to record the third complete set:

http://www.theorganmag.com/articles/alain.html

I have the 2nd and the 3rd sets and I really enjoy both of them.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 16, 2009, 09:41:48 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 06:43:02 PM
This Bach Organ Works set by Ton Koopman on Brilliant cannot possibly be the full set.  Amazon lists only 6 CD's for this set and there is no reason to think this is an MP3 set ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rByPTbKZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

See posts on page 3 of this thread. :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 17, 2009, 05:08:00 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 16, 2009, 06:40:22 PM
Tonight I was reading the Bach/organ thread in the old forum. In that thread Premont recommended the 2nd complete set by M-C Alain (recorded between 1978 and 1980), although he pointed out that it was OOP in that time. But currently that set is available again in a box with 15 cds at a bargain price. IMHO a must-have:

Certainly nice to see, that this integral has been made available again.

BTW I have sent you two PM´s.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 17, 2009, 07:46:33 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 16, 2009, 06:40:22 PM
Finally, a stupid question: Bulldog, are you the former Don?


The former Don, the current Don and hopefully the future Don.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 17, 2009, 08:22:09 AM
Excellent, this explains why the people called you Don, when I did read Bulldog. I like your old avatar with that puppy asking for a brush  ;D.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 17, 2009, 08:43:41 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 17, 2009, 08:22:09 AM
Excellent, this explains why the people called you Don, when I did read Bulldog. I like your old avatar with that puppy asking for a brush  ;D.

Looked for it, but I can't seem to find that avatar.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on February 17, 2009, 08:57:31 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 17, 2009, 08:43:41 AM
Looked for it, but I can't seem to find that avatar.

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=8892;type=avatar)

;)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 17, 2009, 11:34:39 AM
Quote from: opus67 on February 17, 2009, 08:57:31 AM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=8892;type=avatar)

;)



Thanks much - it's back in my computer now.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 17, 2009, 02:00:17 PM
Could someone post pictures (I'd suggest: not too big, all of the same size) of the different MCAlain Bach sets?

Individual releases and the box(es) to which the different sets correspond...

Would be great to get an idea that way, supported by the all-important visual.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gvqsdJb8L._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41M8VBQFJRL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412MPD4JD5L._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41BF9M4290L._SL160_AA115_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614B4XR6GEL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5183A33CETL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bdyOLd-TL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K8CA1K0TL._SL160_AA115_.jpg)


I take it that the silver one is the Third ("Silber-mann organs")... I am told that the re-issued one [first picture] is the Second... I gather the one with Bach popping up might be the first? (Or the original issue of the 2nd.)

Does anyone have the 2nd and 3rd... and what do they (dis)like about them, in comparison?! Thanks!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 17, 2009, 02:41:11 PM

This is the new release of the second set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gvqsdJb8L._SL160_AA115_.jpg) 

The AoF does not belong to any of the series as such. She recorded the work twice (the first was recorded upon the Marcussen organ, Sct. Laurents Kerk Rotterdam (note: not Alkmaar). The picture displays the second recording. The first has - to my knowledge - never beem released on CD.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5183A33CETL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) 

Ths is the first release of the third set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K8CA1K0TL._SL160_AA115_.jpg)

These are the the ones I own. I do not know the other pictures, - but the silvery picture (first in the second row) depicts the Müller organ in Haarlem, and must be the third set.


The first integral (from 1959 - ca 1964 on exclusively Danish organs) was - to my knowledge - never released on CD. I know it only from LPs and do not own it. It is not that innovative, and I never understood, why it caused a stir when it was released. Maybe the argument was the Danish organs (mostly Marcussen and Frobenius organs).


Quote from: jlaurson on February 17, 2009, 02:00:17 PM
Does anyone have the 2nd and 3rd... and what do they (dis)like about them, in comparison?! Thanks!

From my point of view the second set is preferable for sheer musical reasons. It is played upon good neo-baroque organs (Marcussen, Metzler et.c.) and it is a lively and expressive account, whereas the third set - played upon well restored baroque organs - makes a more calm, but also more "grandiose"  impression. I have never made a direct comparison, but it feels like the tempi are a bit slower, and the period instruments are more impressive, whether you want it or not. Ideally you should have both sets.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 17, 2009, 04:03:50 PM
I agree completely with Premont.

Both sets are worth of attention, but the second one is probably preferable (and cheaper at the moment).

The silvery picture is just an image of the box where all the 14 cds were collected, when you bought the complete package of the third set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 17, 2009, 07:14:37 PM
Quote from: premont on February 17, 2009, 02:41:11 PM
This is the new release of the second set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gvqsdJb8L._SL160_AA115_.jpg) 

The AoF does not belong to any of the series as such. She recorded the work twice (the first was recorded upon the Marcussen organ, Sct. Laurents Kerk Rotterdam (note: not Alkmaar). The picture displays the second recording. The first has - to my knowledge - never beem released on CD.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5183A33CETL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) 

Ths is the first release of the third set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K8CA1K0TL._SL160_AA115_.jpg)

These are the the ones I own. I do not know the other pictures, - but the silvery picture (first in the second row) depicts the Müller organ in Haarlem, and must be the third set.


The first integral (from 1959 - ca 1964 on exclusively Danish organs) was - to my knowledge - never released on CD. I know it only from LPs and do not own it. It is not that innovative, and I never understood, why it caused a stir when it was released. Maybe the argument was the Danish organs (mostly Marcussen and Frobenius organs).


From my point of view the second set is preferable for sheer musical reasons. It is played upon good neo-baroque organs (Marcussen, Metzler et.c.) and it is a lively and expressive account, whereas the third set - played upon well restored baroque organs - makes a more calm, but also more "grandiose"  impression. I have never made a direct comparison, but it feels like the tempi are a bit slower, and the period instruments are more impressive, whether you want it or not. Ideally you should have both sets.



I will probably get the third set since I already have most of the singles that make up the second set.  These sets are now released under WarnerMusic anyway. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 18, 2009, 01:38:38 AM
Re: MCAlain Sets:

Hmmm, what a pickle. I like neo-baroque organs... but I also like a bit of the grandiose.  ::)

I suppose it's easy since I have neither set: Start with the inexpensive one and wait until Warner re-issues the 3rd set and sends it to me.

Has anyone got the SACD set with Knud Vad? I don't particularly like the non-conformist, shelf-unfriendly format (fancy though it is), but if it has great merits...

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/4011222217714.jpg)

p.s. i just realize that JPC sells "its" Weinberger Bach Organ Works set for a paltry 49 Euros (compared to something rather ridiculous at Amazon). That's a set I respect very much. And of course it's complete-complete-complete... moreso than Stockmeier who was already pretty completist.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 18, 2009, 06:10:19 AM
About the Knud Vad Bach organ integral:

The entire set is played upon the Marcussen organ in Sorø Klosterkirke, Denmark, where Vad has been resident organist, as long as I can remember. The organ was constructed (reconstructed) by Poul  Gerhard Andersen in 1942 on the basis of surviving notes about the registration and pipe-scaling of the former monastery church organ. Nobody knows, if it sounds like the old baroque organ, but it has certainly got a lot of character. and it is often used for recordings (of Bach and Buxtehude in particular).

Knud Vad´s integral is a live recording. Unfortunately there are a few unavoidable wrong notes and lapses of mind, but given the magnitude of the task, they are relative few and not essentially disturbing. The recorded sound is very good, maybe with the small reservation, that rather close miking - or maybe a combination of close and more distant miking, makes the reeds, especially the 16´ Fagot in the pedal, sound a tad more rattling than it sounds in the real life. In this respect the recordings by Lionel Rogg (part of his third Bach integral was recorded there) and Simon Preston (part of his Bach integral) sound more natural.

Knud Vad is a pupil of Anton Heiller and contemporary with Wolfgang Stockmeier and Peter Hurford, and his interpretation is - like theirs - marked by the transition period from "preauthentic" to "authentic" style, which is to say, that his style is not completely up to the informed style we are used to to day. He has f.ex.got an inclination for legato touch, and there are some unnecessary changes of registration first and foremost in the choral free works. But generally his registrations are clear and efficient, and often, in the chorales in particular, very colourful and neo-baroque. His rhythm is flexible within reasonable limits with a firm and assured basic pulse.

In our actual commercial situation, having access to rather many outstanding recordings of Bach´s organ works, I would not reccommend Vad as a first choice. Not even a second, but still he is worth knowing, and the cost is affordable. For organ enthusiasts on the other hand the set is almost a must have, as it represents an outstanding portrait of this important organ.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 18, 2009, 07:34:04 AM
Quote from: premont on February 18, 2009, 06:10:19 AM
About the Knud Vad Bach organ integral:

The entire set is played upon the Marcussen organ ...  it represents an outstanding portrait of this important organ.

That was VERY helpful. Many thanks. Although I think in the present situation it is our duty to buy as much Bach as possible to jump-start the economy again.

While I am at it: Which of the cycles you have would you consider worth listening all-through?
Not the silly listing of "the best" ... but which ones are in one way or another so special that you'd like to see others having heard them?

Maybe along those lines (just an example):
If someone has not got Walcha (I or II), would you say that's more 'pressing' than MCAlain (II)?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 18, 2009, 07:59:38 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 18, 2009, 07:34:04 AM
... Although I think in the present situation it is our duty to buy as much Bach as possible to jump-start the economy again.

Well, that sounds logical for me  ;D.

... it would be interesting to have some impression about Herrick.

I thought that his set was rather popular here, but apparently it isn't.

I am enjoying his work (not problem with registrations or tempi), especially the gorgeous sound of those Metzler organs in Switzerland.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 18, 2009, 08:25:30 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 18, 2009, 07:59:38 AM

... it would be interesting to have some impression about Herrick.

I thought that his set was rather popular here, but apparently it isn't.

I am enjoying his work (not problem with registrations or tempi), especially the gorgeous sound of those Metzler organs in Switzerland.


I very much enjoy Herrick's Bach.  True, Herrick isn't the man to turn to if you want your Bach sharply phrased with plenty of bite.  But he has a very attractive legato and great rhythmic flow.  I find him spiritually uplifting.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 18, 2009, 04:48:17 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 18, 2009, 07:34:04 AM
That was VERY helpful. Many thanks. Although I think in the present situation it is our duty to buy as much Bach as possible to jump-start the economy again.


I have been helping to jump-start the UK economy rather than the US economy since I have been buying a lot of CD's from MDT at Derby, England.   ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 18, 2009, 04:50:15 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 18, 2009, 08:25:30 AM
I very much enjoy Herrick's Bach.  True, Herrick isn't the man to turn to if you want your Bach sharply phrased with plenty of bite.  But he has a very attractive legato and great rhythmic flow.  I find him spiritually uplifting.

I have a few CD's of Sweelinck's works performed by Herrick, but no Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2009, 08:25:19 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 18, 2009, 08:25:30 AM
I very much enjoy Herrick's Bach.  True, Herrick isn't the man to turn to if you want your Bach sharply phrased with plenty of bite.  But he has a very attractive legato and great rhythmic flow.  I find him spiritually uplifting.

I totally agree, Don. His playing is full of inner peace, even when he comes to the concertos. I have listened to the seventh disc -named The Italian Connection- three times this day. Well, after all, I'm on vacation  8).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2009, 08:42:03 AM
Christoph Wolff and Ton Koopman speaking about Bach and Buxtehude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfKPL8asYd8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVCtuxTn_T4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud5QxAxnriI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ7rO3QCnTU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSMGBMhT_zo

I only watched the first part, but seems interesting.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 19, 2009, 07:05:02 PM
I have Alain's third set, and a primary complaint with it is that it is too resonant for my taste, all of that reverberation obscures the counterpoint.  It works on headphones, but with loudspeakers it is a bit of a soup.  How is the engineering of the second set, particularly with regard to clarity? 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2009, 07:35:31 PM
Hi, nut-job.

Clearly the space is less resonant in the 2nd set.

Here an example:

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=d797ddc
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 19, 2009, 09:53:13 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2009, 07:35:31 PM
Hi, nut-job.

Clearly the space is less resonant in the 2nd set.

Here an example:

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=d797ddc

Very nice!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 20, 2009, 12:56:51 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2009, 07:35:31 PM
Clearly the space is less resonant in the 2nd set.

Ah... even on computer speakers, Bach remains a miracle. I think that's it... MCAlain2, here I come! I have to go downtown today, anyway.

Also: What does anyone know about L.Rogg's Bach Cycle for Harmonia Mundi?!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 20, 2009, 06:49:47 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2009, 08:25:19 AM
I totally agree, Don. His playing is full of inner peace, even when he comes to the concertos. I have listened to the seventh disc -named The Italian Connection- three times this day. Well, after all, I'm on vacation  8).

I agree about the inner peace, a fine way to put it, and this quality suits many of the works well e.g. the triosonatas and many of the chorale preludes, but elsewhere I miss some passion.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 20, 2009, 06:52:54 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 18, 2009, 07:34:04 AM

While I am at it: Which of the cycles you have would you consider worth listening all-through?
Not the silly listing of "the best" ... but which ones are in one way or another so special that you'd like to see others having heard them?

Maybe along those lines (just an example):
If someone has not got Walcha (I or II), would you say that's more 'pressing' than MCAlain (II)?

A difficult question to answer in short. I shall give it a thought during the next week (have to do my work in the week-end) and even comment on Rogg.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 20, 2009, 07:18:46 AM
Quote from: premont on February 20, 2009, 06:49:47 AM
I agree about the inner peace, a fine way to put it, and this quality suits many of the works well e.g. the triosonatas and many of the chorale preludes, but elsewhere I miss some passion.

The last thing I want to hear in the trio-sonatas is inner peace.  I was that fascinating counterpoint in my face.  Passion, I'm not sure that's helpful in this music.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 20, 2009, 08:02:25 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 20, 2009, 12:56:51 AM
Ah... even on computer speakers, Bach remains a miracle. I think that's it... MCAlain2, here I come! I have to go downtown today, anyway.

Also: What does anyone know about L.Rogg's Bach Cycle for Harmonia Mundi?!


I've had this cycle for many years and  never tire of listening to it.  For my money, Rogg beats out just about all other contenders.  Be warned that it isn't "complete" by today's standards. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 20, 2009, 08:14:31 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 20, 2009, 08:02:25 AM
I've had this cycle for many years and  never tire of listening to it.  For my money, Rogg beats out just about all other contenders.  Be warned that it isn't "complete" by today's standards. 

Since the set is out of print, this is just gratuitous torture.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 20, 2009, 08:56:49 AM
Quote from: nut-job on February 20, 2009, 07:18:46 AM
The last thing I want to hear in the trio-sonatas is inner peace.  I was that fascinating counterpoint in my face.  Passion, I'm not sure that's helpful in this music.



There is no drama in these sober and playful works, and accordingly Herricks interpretation is nice and -as Don pointed out - uplifting.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 20, 2009, 09:00:05 AM
Quote from: nut-job on February 20, 2009, 08:14:31 AM
Since the set is out of print, this is just gratuitous torture.


I have every confidence that Harmonia Mundi will reissue the set. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 20, 2009, 10:04:35 AM
Quote from: premont on February 20, 2009, 08:56:49 AM
There is no drama in these sober and playful works, and accordingly Herricks interpretation is nice and -as Don pointed out - uplifting.

Actually I have Herrick's, and it is nice.  Johannsen is best, IMO.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 20, 2009, 10:06:49 AM
Quote from: premont on February 20, 2009, 06:49:47 AM
I agree about the inner peace, a fine way to put it, and this quality suits many of the works well e.g. the triosonatas and many of the chorale preludes, but elsewhere I miss some passion.

I agree with you, Premont. Last night, when I was listening to Herrick to play the "Dorian" Toccata and Fugue, I thought the same.

A problem with these organ works is their colossal range. Someone could entitle a complete set, as Harold Bloom, Bach: The Invention of the Human. Complete Organ Works. That would be great because every human emotion seems present in them; but who can express all of them, the whole spectrum?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 20, 2009, 02:33:16 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 20, 2009, 09:00:05 AM
I have every confidence that Harmonia Mundi will reissue the set. 

I have the Lionel Rogg Complete Organ Works on LP released by EMI.  Did he record any set with HM?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 20, 2009, 02:37:06 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 20, 2009, 02:33:16 PM
I have the Lionel Rogg Complete Organ Works on LP released by EMI.  Did he record any set with HM?

Yes Sir.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 20, 2009, 02:41:14 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 20, 2009, 02:37:06 PM
Yes Sir.

Has EMI ever released his set on CD?  The Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland section of this EMI CD just sounds great ...


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 20, 2009, 03:30:41 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 20, 2009, 08:02:25 AM
I've had this cycle for many years and  never tire of listening to it.  For my money, Rogg beats out just about all other contenders.  Be warned that it isn't "complete" by today's standards. 

Oh, goody... because I am getting that, very soon.

And inspired by all that Bach-organ-talk, I got this today to shorten the wait:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RTBMVD03L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006G9H8O/nectarandambrUK-21)
Not bad... "grand", but mildly underwhelming given how much I like his Art of the Fugue.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 20, 2009, 07:47:37 PM
It appears the only set by Marie-Claire Alain that is more readily available now is her first recording.  I noticed a set of the Bach Organ Works by her was available during the MDT sale on the WarnerMusic box sets back in January.  It was probably the first or the second recording as the price was too low to have been the third recording ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 20, 2009, 11:23:54 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 20, 2009, 07:47:37 PM
It appears the only set by Marie-Claire Alain that is more readily available now is her first recording.  I noticed a set of the Bach Organ Works by her was available during the MDT sale on the WarnerMusic box sets back in January.  It was probably the first or the second recording as the price was too low to have been the third recording ...

I doubt very much, that it is the first, as I newer have seen it released on CD.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 20, 2009, 11:25:02 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 20, 2009, 02:41:14 PM
Has EMI ever released his set on CD?  The Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland section of this EMI CD just sounds great ...




Only parts of it. A twofer with extracts are to be released soon.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 20, 2009, 11:34:36 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 20, 2009, 02:33:16 PM
I have the Lionel Rogg Complete Organ Works on LP released by EMI.  Did he record any set with HM?

He recorded Bachs organ works three times (until now)

1) For the Swiss radio 1962 on the Metzler organ, Grossmünster, Zurich, released by Oryx (only LP)

2) For Harmonia Mundi 1970 on the J.A.Silbermann organ, Arlesheim

3) For EMI ca. 1976 on different organs, among which the Metzler organ in Cathedral Sct. Pierre, Geneve and the Marcussen organ, Monastery Church, Sorø. More complete recording than the two first set´s. Originally Quadrophonic recording on LP, very few items from this has been released on CD. I only remember the CD quoted by you and the twofer which is to be released soon.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 04:31:05 AM
Quote from: premont on February 20, 2009, 11:34:36 PM
He recorded Bachs organ works three times (until now)

1) For the Swiss radio 1962 on the Metzler organ, Grossmünster, Zurich, released by Oryx (only LP)

2) For Harmonia Mundi 1970 on the J.A.Silbermann organ, Arlesheim

3) For EMI ca. 1976 on different organs, among which the Metzler organ in Cathedral Sct. Pierre, Geneve and the Marcussen organ, Monastery Church, Sorø. More complete recording than the two first set´s. Originally Quadrophonic recording on LP, very few items from this has been released on CD. I only remember the CD quoted by you and the twofer which is to be released soon.

I just wonder what EMI is waiting for.  IMO, that set should be quite good, though I have not listened to the set in over 20 years.  The records, just as all my other LP's, are in pristine condition (played only once).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 08:01:53 AM
This certainly looks like a DVD I should have.  I imagine there will be English subtitle ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FcgHXc4TL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 09:23:51 AM
The Bach Trio Sonatas are some of my most favorite organ works.  I particularly enjoy the performance by Marie-Claire Alain on this second cycle recording I bought in the late 80's.  She was absolutely fantastic on the organ and here are the CD artworks on the original CD ...

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 21, 2009, 09:28:50 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 09:23:51 AM
The Bach Trio Sonatas are some of my most favorite organ works.  I particularly enjoy the performance by Marie-Claire Alain on this second cycle recording I bought in the late 80's.  She was absolutely fantastic on the organ and here are the CD artworks on the original CD ...

Just listening to Weinberger's E-flat Trio Sonata. A bit fast, for my taste... It's a cycle that impresses me lots as a whole, but in individual parts I can't say that it features a lot of my favorite interpretations.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 09:35:52 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 21, 2009, 09:28:50 AM
Just listening to Weinberger's E-flat Trio Sonata. A bit fast, for my taste... It's a cycle that impresses me lots as a whole, but in individual parts I can't say that it features a lot of my favorite interpretations.

I do not have any organ pieces by Weinberger and as such have no clue as to how he plays and how fast is fast.  I do, however, love the performance by Marie-Claire Alain.  I think the pace is just right ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 21, 2009, 10:08:01 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 09:23:51 AM
The Bach Trio Sonatas are some of my most favorite organ works.  I particularly enjoy the performance by Marie-Claire Alain on this second cycle recording I bought in the late 80's.  She was absolutely fantastic on the organ and here are the CD artworks on the original CD ...

This recording of the Triosonatas is, as far as I can read from the cover, the fourth (!) recording Alain made (in the time between the second and the third integral). Why she only recorded the triosonatas one more time, I do not know, but I agree, that it is very good, very chamber music like and rhythmically alert.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 21, 2009, 11:22:48 AM
You are incredible, dear Premont!

I have been finding out: The Trio Sonatas included in the M-C Alain second set were recorded on the Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France. I don't know the recording date because isn't delivered with my set, but it's said that all of them were recorded between May 1978 and April 1980. It seems that the original set included 21 LPs.
   
In the Coopmv's disc (a digital recording) Alain plays the organ at the église Saint-Hilaire de Nafels, Glaris, Switzerland. It was recorded on September, 1984.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 11:24:42 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 21, 2009, 11:22:48 AM
You are incredible, dear Premont!

I have been finding out: The Trio Sonatas included in the M-C Alain second set were recorded on the Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France. I don't know the recording date because isn't delivered with my set, but it's said that all of them were recorded between May 1978 and April 1980. It seems that the original set included 21 LPs.
   
In the Coopmv's disc (a digital recording) Alain plays on the organ at the église Saint-Hilaire de Nafels, Glaris, Switzerland. It was recorded on September, 1984.


It says 1986 edition on the back panel of the CD.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 21, 2009, 11:30:47 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 11:24:42 AM
It says 1986 edition on the back panel of the CD.

It could be the production date. But my knowledge is just "virtual" at the moment.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 21, 2009, 01:06:30 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 09:35:52 AM
I do not have any organ pieces by Weinberger and as such have no clue as to how he plays and how fast is fast. 

Some of Weinberger's recordings are must-haves:  Vols. 3-5 and a fantastic Art of Fugue.  As for his general style, I'd call it severe and sharp.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 01:49:01 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 21, 2009, 01:06:30 PM
Some of Weinberger's recordings are must-haves:  Vols. 3-5 and a fantastic Art of Fugue.  As for his general style, I'd call it severe and sharp.

BACH Complete Organ Works. Gerhard Weinberger. CPO 22cds

So this set is actually quite recent.  Is the SQ quite uniform across all 22 discs?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 21, 2009, 02:11:45 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 01:49:01 PM
BACH Complete Organ Works. Gerhard Weinberger. CPO 22cds

So this set is actually quite recent.  Is the SQ quite uniform across all 22 discs?

On some of the discs, the acoustic is rather swimmy and damages detail.  I've got most of the discs in the series, but with hindsight, I would have been just as happy with only those volumes I recommended.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 21, 2009, 02:18:27 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 21, 2009, 02:11:45 PM
On some of the discs, the acoustic is rather swimmy and damages detail.  I've got most of the discs in the series, but with hindsight, I would have been just as happy with only those volumes I recommended.
I haven't noticed much variation in the rather good SQ. I may not have listened very intently to every disc, but I did listen to the whole set in over a few days... in close enough proximity to notice aberrations.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 02:23:07 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 21, 2009, 02:11:45 PM
On some of the discs, the acoustic is rather swimmy and damages detail.  I've got most of the discs in the series, but with hindsight, I would have been just as happy with only those volumes I recommended.

In hindsight, I should have picked up all the singles by Marie-Claire Alain since I now have a little less than half of the entire works.  Back in the mid to late 80's, when those CD's were released one at a time, it took a bit of vigilance not to miss any new release.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 02:34:06 PM
So how does Gerhard Weinberger stack up against Helmut Walcha?  I thought Walcha was a class act and lately I find Marie-Claire Alain probably belongs in that special class as well ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 21, 2009, 03:32:13 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 02:34:06 PM
So how does Gerhard Weinberger stack up against Helmut Walcha?  I thought Walcha was a class act and lately I find Marie-Claire Alain probably belongs in that special class as well ...

You can't really compare professorial, historically informed Weinberger on Silbermann and other 'original' organs and the "old school" Walcha grandezza d'Bacho. You could think of it as a complement or the antidote.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 03:40:49 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 21, 2009, 03:32:13 PM
You can't really compare professorial, historically informed Weinberger on Silbermann and other 'original' organs and the "old school" Walcha grandezza d'Bacho. You could think of it as a complement or the antidote.

Wolfgang Rubsam has been professor of organ at Northwestern and was a student of both Helmut Walcha and Marie-Claire Alain.  I find his organ playing quite inspiring too ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_R%C3%BCbsam
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 10:05:23 PM
How come there has been hardly any mention of Ton Koopman?  Isn't he one of the important and currently active organists (given Leonhardt is well into his 80's, as is Marie-Claire Alain)?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on February 21, 2009, 11:05:30 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 21, 2009, 01:06:30 PM
Some of Weinberger's recordings are must-haves:  Vols. 3-5 and a fantastic Art of Fugue.  As for his general style, I'd call it severe and sharp.

Sharp? I have volumes 9-16. They sound very soft. It pleases the ear but also blurs out complexity.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 22, 2009, 06:49:35 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 21, 2009, 11:05:30 PM
Sharp? I have volumes 9-16. They sound very soft.

So turn up the volume button.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on February 22, 2009, 08:14:05 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 22, 2009, 06:49:35 AM
So turn up the volume button.

Soft is not same as quiet and loud is not same as sharp. Turning up the volume would give louder softness.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 22, 2009, 10:39:25 AM
I have too many recordings of the Bach organ works to be justified, so some are going on the auction block. 

This may not be the most sensible thing, but I tend to use a few of the more obscure pieces that are my particular favorites as a benchmark.  The Trio sonatas are among them, also the Canzone in d-minor and the Alla Breve. 

The Canzone is an archaic style fugue, and Alain is a nightmare, soupy recording, extremely intrusive ornamentation all over the place, unlistenable in my opinion.   

Another complete set I have is Walcha, and he does a very decent job of the Canzone, and the sound is good.  Unfortunately this set does not have uniformly good audio quality, with some of the recordings exhibiting annoying distortion of bad frequency balance.  Walcha is staying for the gems that are in the set, although I can't consider it a really complete set, some of it sounds too bad for me to enjoy listening to.

I also have a set by George Ritchie on Raven records.  This guy is unknown and I get the impression that the record label positions itself as an audiophile outfit.  The set seems to be conceived partly as a showcase for modern American organs.  Actually it is satisfying because the modern organs are very nicely made, and the guy performs with skill.  Not inspiring, perhaps,  but it sounds good and you can hear what Bach has written.

I also have a few random discs which I auditioned.  Herrick's Canzone is rather fast, not bad in terms of his performance style, but the recording is too reverberant for my taste.  I won't be getting any more from him. 

I also have volume 11 of Weinberger's set, which I think is absolutely spectacular.  There is less resonance than you tend to hear in organ recordings, which I like.  His performance also brings out individual voices better than any of the others I listened to today.  I think I will be getting his complete cycle with the proceeds of the Alain sale.   I must admit I find a lot of the comments about his set on this thread quite puzzling.  The audio engineering I find excellent (at least in volume 11) and his performance is exactly to my taste.

One recording that I have to mention is the old Richter on Decca (recorded in the 1950's) using the organ in Victoria Hall in Geneva (home of the OSR).  Includes the Passacaglia and Fugue in c-minor.   Wow, just superb.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 22, 2009, 12:04:26 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 21, 2009, 11:05:30 PM
Sharp? I have volumes 9-16. They sound very soft. It pleases the ear but also blurs out complexity.

As far as I can read, Don talks about Weinberger´s style of interpretation, calling it sharp. I can fully agree with this.

And as far as I can see, you are talking about the character of the sound , and I do not find it that soft. What do you use for reference?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 22, 2009, 12:08:20 PM
Interesting considerations, Nut-job. But maybe it is a bit restricted to use the Canzona as reference, -Bach´s organ works are much more than that.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 22, 2009, 12:21:43 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 22, 2009, 08:14:05 AM
Soft is not same as quiet and loud is not same as sharp. Turning up the volume would give louder softness.

Can't disagree with that logic.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 22, 2009, 12:25:18 PM
Quote from: nut-job on February 22, 2009, 10:39:25 AM
I also have volume 11 of Weinberger's set, which I think is absolutely spectacular.  There is less resonance than you tend to hear in organ recordings, which I like.  His performance also brings out individual voices better than any of the others I listened to today.  I think I will be getting his complete cycle with the proceeds of the Alain sale.   I must admit I find a lot of the comments about his set on this thread quite puzzling.  The audio engineering I find excellent (at least in volume 11) and his performance is exactly to my taste.


Check out Vol. 15 - the sound environment swims with the fishes.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on February 22, 2009, 12:26:20 PM
Quote from: premont on February 22, 2009, 12:04:26 PM
As far as I can read, Don talks about Weinberger´s style of interpretation, calling it sharp. I can fully agree with this.

What does it mean to play organ sharp? Pressing the keys "sharply"?

Quote from: premont on February 22, 2009, 12:04:26 PMAnd as far as I can see, you are talking about the character of the sound , and I do not find it that soft. What do you use for reference?

Rübsam on Naxos.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 22, 2009, 12:27:07 PM
Quote from: premont on February 22, 2009, 12:04:26 PM
As far as I can read, Don talks about Weinberger´s style of interpretation, calling it sharp.

Correct.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 22, 2009, 12:29:23 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 22, 2009, 12:26:20 PM
What does it mean to play organ sharp? Pressing the keys "sharply"?

Rübsam on Naxos.

It means the same thing as sharp phrasing from any keyboard instrument.  The performer is in charge of this feature.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 22, 2009, 12:38:30 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 22, 2009, 12:26:20 PM
What does it mean to play organ sharp? Pressing the keys "sharply"?

He does not play the organ sharp, nor is this what I wrote.

But his style of interpretation is sharp, f. ex. his articulation is pointed , and his agogics often rather abrupt.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 22, 2009, 12:42:05 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 22, 2009, 12:26:20 PM
Rübsam on Naxos.

In which respect is Weinberger "softer" than Rübsam??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 22, 2009, 12:55:30 PM
Quote from: premont on February 22, 2009, 12:38:30 PM
But his style of interpretation is sharp, f. ex. his articulation is pointed , and his agogics often rather abrupt.

I'd agree, and that's what I like about it.

Shame the the Rubsom/Philips cycle is not currently available.  It was out in a CD edition a few years ago but was quite expensive.  Seems like it would be a good candidate for a collector box.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 22, 2009, 03:20:27 PM
Quote from: nut-job on February 22, 2009, 12:55:30 PM
I'd agree, and that's what I like about it.

Shame the the Ruebsam/Philips cycle is not currently available.  It was out in a CD edition a few years ago but was quite expensive.  Seems like it would be a good candidate for a collector box.
Torrents/downloading aren't my thing at all (not even primarily an ethical question, which would be little issue in case of something so solidly OOP, in any case), but perhaps some are interested in it.

Philips Cycle of Ruebsam's Bach at torrent reactor dot net (http://www.torrentreactor.net/torrents/2720297/Bach-Organ-Works-Wolfram-Rubsam-(Phillips-16-CDs)-(2S%2F2L)) or MiniNova (http://www.mininova.org/tor/2169455), respectively.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 22, 2009, 03:32:58 PM
Just arrived this week:

Ullrich Böhme
Orgelbüchlein / Little Organ Book
Querstand, 2007

It is a well-recorded disc, but sometimes uninspired; specially in Puer Natus in Bethelhem BWV 603 or Ich Ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ BWV639, two of my favorite preludes. I expected rather more when is announced as Ullrich Böhme An der Bach Orgel in der Thomaskirche zu Leipzig. Obviously, the "Bach organ" is not the instrument used by Bach, but an instrument built by Gerald Woehl (2000) in order to complement the old Sauer organ (1889), which is not suitable for Bach's music.

I have read two explanations about the organ design:

- It was designed to look similar to the old organ on which Bach played in the Paulinerkirche.

- It is based on an organ designed by Bach's uncle Johann Christoph for the Georgenkirche in Eisenach.

The booklet does not say anything about it.

BTW, the booklet is fragile and stapled to the cover, which is very uncomfortable.

Here two (fine) examples from the CD:

Gelobet seist du, Jesu Christ BWV 604

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=fd198f0

Das alte Jahr vergangen ist BWV 614

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=22771f4
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 23, 2009, 02:02:20 AM

Just arrived:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VTRPQ06TL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Complete (not really) Bach Organ Works,
Lionel Rogg (2nd ? Cycle, Harmonia Mundi)
Silbermann Organ in Arlesheim (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000027OAA/goodmusicguide-20)

[Got it used (a bit wear on the box) for ~$40,-]
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 07:41:28 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 23, 2009, 02:02:20 AM
Just arrived:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VTRPQ06TL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Complete (not really) Bach Organ Works,
Lionel Rogg (2nd ? Cycle, Harmonia Mundi)
Silbermann Organ in Arlesheim (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000027OAA/goodmusicguide-20)

[Got it used (a bit wear on the box) for ~$40,-]


Very fortunate to find it for $40, sellers on Amazon want a much larger sum to part with it.

One more comment I have, this set (far from complete) is gorgeous

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HHP0BTGRL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

What I really wish is that when record companies dice up the complete sets they would divide them by genre (i.e., all of the preludes and fugues, all of the trio sonatas, all of the concertos).  To many times they issue them as recitals, meaning that each volume contains 1/3 music I'm interested in and 2/3 music I would never listen to again if I lived to be 1000 years old.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 23, 2009, 08:20:56 AM
Quote from: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 07:41:28 AM
One more comment I have, this set (far from complete) is gorgeous
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HHP0BTGRL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I've been talking my mouth fussy (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html) extolling the virtues of that set ever since it was (re-)issued in 2005.  ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 23, 2009, 09:46:34 AM
Quote from: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 07:41:28 AM
What I really wish is that when record companies dice up the complete sets they would divide them by genre (i.e., all of the preludes and fugues, all of the trio sonatas, all of the concertos).  To many times they issue them as recitals, meaning that each volume contains 1/3 music I'm interested in and 2/3 music I would never listen to again if I lived to be 1000 years old.


I can't agree.  I prefer some variety for each volume.  Also, how could you only be interested in 1/3 of Bach's organ music?  If that's true, why bother buying a complete set?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 10:14:37 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 23, 2009, 09:46:34 AM
I can't agree.  I prefer some variety for each volume.  Also, how could you only be interested in 1/3 of Bach's organ music?  If that's true, why bother buying a complete set?

If I want variety, I am free to listen to selections from various discs. 

As to why I bother with complete sets, in the current era of value priced box sets it is cheaper to buy the complete set than the discs which contain the music I am interested in, particularly for record labels who package a few preludes a fugues that I am interested in with two dozen chorale preludes, which I am typically not interested in. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 23, 2009, 10:32:17 AM
Quote from: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 10:14:37 AM
If I want variety, I am free to listen to selections from various discs. 

As to why I bother with complete sets, in the current era of value priced box sets it is cheaper to buy the complete set than the discs which contain the music I am interested in, particularly for record labels who package a few preludes a fugues that I am interested in with two dozen chorale preludes, which I am typically not interested in. 


You and I are opposites in these matters.  I see listening to selections from various discs a waste of labor, and I never buy any recordings I'm not interested in.  Also, what don't you like about Bach's chorale preludes?  Do you love Bach's Leipzig Chorales?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 11:24:25 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 23, 2009, 10:32:17 AM
Also, what don't you like about Bach's chorale preludes?  Do you love Bach's Leipzig Chorales?

I don't even know.  There are so many of chorale preludes, and if you play a Bach organ CD you end up listening to at least 20 in a row, which is more than I can take.  As a result, I have no idea which ones I like and which ones I don't. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 23, 2009, 01:19:31 PM
Quote from: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 11:24:25 AM
I don't even know.  There are so many of chorale preludes, and if you play a Bach organ CD you end up listening to at least 20 in a row, which is more than I can take.  As a result, I have no idea which ones I like and which ones I don't. 

The only single Bach organ discs I know of that have at least 20 chorale preludes in a row are discs devoted to Bach chorale preludes.

Might be a good idea to jot down those chorale preludes you like very much to insure that you don't buy in the future a disc of little enjoyment for yourself.

I'm adding another paragraph just to offer my opinion that Bach's Leipzig Chorales are amazing pieces.  They are often found all together on 2-cd sets, so you don't have to acquire any complete Bach organ set to get them.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 01:47:49 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 23, 2009, 01:19:31 PM
The only single Bach organ discs I know of that have at least 20 chorale preludes in a row are discs devoted to Bach chorale preludes.

You are right, the disc I was thinking only has 11.  Off by a factor of two

Quote
Might be a good idea to jot down those chorale preludes you like very much to insure that you don't buy in the future a disc of little enjoyment for yourself.

I'm adding another paragraph just to offer my opinion that Bach's Leipzig Chorales are amazing pieces.  They are often found all together on 2-cd sets, so you don't have to acquire any complete Bach organ set to get them.

As I have mentioned above, I currently have 3 complete sets (Alain, Walcha, Ritchie) with one on the auction block (Alain) and one on order (Weinberger) so I will not have to acquire anything to hear them.  Maybe I'll queue a few up this evening.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 23, 2009, 01:52:27 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 22, 2009, 03:32:58 PM
Ullrich Böhme
Orgelbüchlein / Little Organ Book
Querstand, 2007

It is a well-recorded disc, but sometimes uninspired; specially in Puer Natus in Bethelhem BWV 603 or Ich Ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ BWV639, two of my favorite preludes. I expected rather more when is announced as Ullrich Böhme An der Bach Orgel in der Thomaskirche zu Leipzig. Obviously, the "Bach organ" is not the instrument used by Bach, but an instrument built by Gerald Woehl (2000) in order to complement the old Sauer organ (1889), which is not suitable for Bach's music.

What did you expect? That a hitherto unknown autentic Bach organ suddenly had been discovered in the Thomas Kirche? Never-the-less you prompted me to relisten to the entire CD, and I find it a mixed pleasure. I do not think Böhme is to blame that much, he is an informed musician, and I find his interpretation committed and serious, maybe sometimes even a bit too serious. I do not like all his registrations, e.g. when he uses reeds with tremulant in plenum combinations, something he does here - and even more in his recording of the AoF. Neither is the problem with his Orgelbüchlein the recording as such, but first and foremost the sound of the organ. In these ears this is an organ without style and most of the stops lack a definite character. I would never be able to guess the organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 23, 2009, 01:56:43 PM
Quote from: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 01:47:49 PM
You are right, the disc I was thinking only has 11.  Off by a factor of two

As I have mentioned above, I currently have 3 complete sets (Alain, Walcha, Ritchie) with one on the auction block (Alain) and one on order (Weinberger) so I will not have to acquire anything to hear them.  Maybe I'll queue a few up this evening.


This isn't getting us anywhere.  I keep talking about music that fits on one or two cds, and you keep bringing up complete sets.  What's that about?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 02:02:37 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 23, 2009, 01:56:43 PM
This isn't getting us anywhere.  I keep talking about music that fits on one or two cds, and you keep bringing up complete sets.  What's that about?

I don't get the question.  I already have three recordings of the chorale preludes you mentioned as part of three editions of Bach organ works.  You know, you are allowed to listen to individual discs from the complete sets.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 23, 2009, 02:09:44 PM
Quote from: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 02:02:37 PM
I don't get the question.  I already have three recordings of the chorale preludes you mentioned as part of three editions of Bach organ works.  You know, you are allowed to listen to individual discs from the complete sets.


We're just at different points on the spectrum.  I was attempting to get some talk going about recordings of the Leipzig Chorales.  For this to happen in any decent fashion, covering only performances from complete Bach organ sets won't suffice at all.

However, I am becoming aware of the high regard that many members here have for complete sets of just about everything.  So never mind.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 25, 2009, 11:33:11 AM
Quote from: premont on February 23, 2009, 01:52:27 PM
What did you expect? That a hitherto unknown autentic Bach organ suddenly had been discovered in the Thomas Kirche?

No, Premont, I didn't expect a North German baroque organ suddenly founded in Leipzig, just some explanations in order to justify the organ's features and the models taken into account. Today is totally unthinkable to face this kind of work without some historical research, especially when a so historical place is concerned.

On the other hand, as you point out, the huge Böhme's "seriousness" could be the problem. This boy doesn't "play" the game; he doesn't flow with music (and the different pathos of the liturgical year). I feel, for instance, lost the joyful sense of the little bells in BWV 603. But probably I'm being unfair with Böhme because he is a very respectable organist.

Here some pictures of the "Bach church"  :):

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 25, 2009, 02:52:07 PM
Impressive looking organ! And with the 'sacred pineapple'!!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 27, 2009, 12:54:17 PM

Listened to volume 11 of Weinberger's Bach organ works series.  Track list is below.  Preludes and Fugues, Duets, the Canzone and Alla Breve were excellent.  The Chorale preludes made little impression on me, as usual.  Sorry, Bulldog :-[

Quote# Prelude and Fugue, for organ in F minor, BWV 534 (BC J20)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Kyrie, Gott Vater in Ewigkeit (II), chorale prelude for organ (Clavier-Übung III/4), BWV 672 (BC K4)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Christe, aller Welt Trost (II), chorale prelude for organ (Clavier-Übung No. 5), BWV 673 (BC K5)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Kyrie, Gott heiliger Geist (II), chorale prelude for organ (Clavier-Übung III/6), BWV 674 (BC K6)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr (V), chorale prelude for organ (Clavier-Übung III/7), BWV 675 (BC K7)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Fughetta super Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr, for organ (Clavier-Ubung III/9), BWV 677 (BC K9)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Fughetta super Dies sind die heilgen zehn Gebot, for organ (Clavier-Übung III/11), BWV 679 (BC K11)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Fughetta super Wir glauben all an einen Gott, for organ (Clavier-Übung III/13), BWV 681 (BC K13)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Vater unser im Himmelreich (III), chorale prelude for organ (Clavier-Übung No. 145), BWV 683 (BC K15)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Christ, unser Herr, zum Jordan kam (II), chorale prelude for organ (Clavier-Übung III/17), BWV 685 (BC K17)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Aus tiefer Not schrei ich zu dir (II), chorale prelude for organ á 4 (Clavier-Übung III/19), BWV 687 (BC K19)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Fuga super Jesus Christus unser Heiland, fugue for organ (Clavier-Übung III/21), BWV 689 (BC K21)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Alla breve, for organ in D major, BWV 589 (BC J64)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Canzona, for organ in D minor, BWV 588 (BC J80)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Duetto, for keyboard No. 1 in E minor (Clavier-Übung III No. 23), BWV 802 (BC J74)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Duetto, for keyboard No. 2 in F major (Clavier-Übung III No. 24), BWV 803 (BC J75)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Duetto, for keyboard No. 3 in G major (Clavier-Übung III No. 25), BWV 804 (BC J76)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Duetto, for keyboard No. 4 in A minor (Clavier-Übung III No. 26), BWV 805 (BC J77)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Toccata and Fugue, for organ in F major, BWV 540 (BC J39, 55, 73) Fuga in F
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 27, 2009, 01:11:52 PM
Quote from: nut-job on February 27, 2009, 12:54:17 PM
Listened to volume 11 of Weinberger's Bach organ works series.  Track list is below.  Preludes and Fugues, Duets, the Canzone and Alla Breve were excellent.  The Chorale preludes made little impression on me, as usual.  Sorry, Bulldog :-[


I don't have any idea what you're sorry about.  Please clue me in?

I think I understand now.  You're the guy who isn't thrilled with Bach chorale preludes.  Hopefully, someday you will come across an organist who makes these works come alive for you.  In the meantime, enjoy the rest of Bach's music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 27, 2009, 05:04:14 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 25, 2009, 11:33:11 AM
No, Premont, I didn't expect a North German baroque organ suddenly founded in Leipzig, just some explanations in order to justify the organ's features and the models taken into account. Today is totally unthinkable to face this kind of work without some historical research, especially when a so historical place is concerned.

On the other hand, as you point out, the huge Böhme's "seriousness" could be the problem. This boy doesn't "play" the game; he doesn't flow with music (and the different pathos of the liturgical year). I feel, for instance, lost the joyful sense of the little bells in BWV 603. But probably I'm being unfair with Böhme because he is a very respectable organist.

Here some pictures of the "Bach church"  :):



Here is a Mass in B Minor concert recorded right at the St Thomas Church in Leipzig.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31XYa9Gx98L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 27, 2009, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: nut-job on February 27, 2009, 12:54:17 PM
Listened to volume 11 of Weinberger's Bach organ works series.  Track list is below.  Preludes and Fugues, Duets, the Canzone and Alla Breve were excellent.  The Chorale preludes made little impression on me, as usual.  Sorry, Bulldog :-[


At the moment, I am still undecided if I should spring for the Gerhard Weinberger's set.  I am definitely going for the third recording by Marie-Claire Alain if I can find the set at the right price, which happens from time to time ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 27, 2009, 08:59:54 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 27, 2009, 05:16:38 PM
At the moment, I am still undecided if I should spring for the Gerhard Weinberger's set.  I am definitely going for the third recording by Marie-Claire Alain if I can find the set at the right price, which happens from time to time ...

I have Weinberger's set on order.  I'm selling my Alain set on ebay.  Auction is in progress.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on February 28, 2009, 12:19:26 AM
I have been enjoying Preludes & Fugues (Rübsam/Naxos 8.550652) which I bought used and got last Thursday.

The backside of the CD case lists Preludes and Fugues as separate tracks but they aren't on the CD. Also, BWV542 is listed as Prelude & Fugue instead of Fantasia & Fugue. Anyway, the music kicks ass and that's what counts.  0:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 28, 2009, 05:23:58 AM
Quote from: nut-job on February 27, 2009, 08:59:54 PM
I have Weinberger's set on order.  I'm selling my Alain set on ebay.  Auction is in progress.



I can get the Weinberger's set at a great price but do not want to end up having a box set that ultimately may prove unsatisfactory.  I have yet to find any uniformly positive opinions of him ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 28, 2009, 05:51:57 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 28, 2009, 05:23:58 AM
I can get the Weinberger's set at a great price but do not want to end up having a box set that ultimately may prove unsatisfactory.  I have yet to find any uniformly positive opinions of him ...

I can't help you, either, because I don't think it _is_ a set that one could say "uniformly positive" things about. (I don't know a complete set, yet, about which one could, though.) That said, I think it's certainly not a set that will prove unsatisfactory. (In some excitement, I put it on my "Best of 2008 List for WETA, actually... in case it sounds like I don't actually like it.)

Quote#9 – (Reissue) – Bach, Complete Organ Works, Gerhard Weinberger – cpo 777363-2 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=442)

For some reason, I've not come across (or particularly noted) many re-issues that weren't extravagant box sets. So here's the first of a few, in this case the complete organ works of Bach. Gerhard Weinberger has been recording this canon since 1997, and he finished earlier this year with a (world premiere) recording of the recently rediscovered Chorale Fantasia BWV 1128 and Die Kunst der Fuge. This is the most complete set of Bach's organ works yet, including more Bach (and works once thought to be by Bach) than my Wolfgang Stockmeier set on Art & Music. I wasn't very fond of the last two releases: on volume 20 the Carl Christian Hofmann Organ (St.Marien Mecterstädt, 1770) is tuned in a way that cannot please my ears and Die Kunst der Fuge I have heard more to my liking, elsewhere. [I am referring to Isoir, there] But hearing the 19 preceding volumes, only some of which I had already owned, I was delighted throughout.

Weinberger doesn't aim for bombast (near-impossible, on the historic instruments from Saxony and Thuringia, anyway), and he is not the most impressive in some of the 'biggest hits' works. (Karl Richter's 3 CD set is still a mandatory addition to any Bach organ collection, no matter who the interpreter). But apart from minor quibbles, it is a magnificent complete set.
---WETA
I would add to that: Weinberger is not the set to _excite_ you. It doesn't "impress" right out of the stalls. But it did sway me with its seriousness, scrupulous playing and registration... and the very consistently high quality. I've just received Marie-Claire Alain II and am just about through the Rogg II set (neither of them complete, compared to Weinberger), which were my two most recent Bach Organ Works sets...

I may have something to say about Weinberger in comparison that you might be able to relate to, better. One thing I absolutely love--although it has nothing to do with the quality of the set, per se--is that they put the "famous" Toccata & Fugue where it belongs, namely on the discs with the apocryphal works. Right-on, but still gutsy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 28, 2009, 06:06:32 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 28, 2009, 05:51:57 AM
I can't help you, either, because I don't think it _is_ a set that one could say "uniformly positive" things about. (I don't know a complete set, yet, about which one could, though.) That said, I think it's certainly not a set that will prove unsatisfactory. (In some excitement, I put it on my "Best of 2008 List for WETA, actually... in case it sounds like I don't actually like it.)
I would add to that: Weinberger is not the set to _excite_ you. It doesn't "impress" right out of the stalls. But it did sway me with its seriousness, scrupulous playing and registration... and the very consistently high quality. I've just received Marie-Claire Alain II and am just about through the Rogg II set (neither of them complete, compared to Weinberger), which were my two most recent Bach Organ Works sets...

I may have something to say about Weinberger in comparison that you might be able to relate to, better. One thing I absolutely love--although it has nothing to do with the quality of the set, per se--is that they put the "famous" Toccata & Fugue where it belongs, namely on the discs with the apocryphal works. Right-on, but still gutsy.

If I remember correctly, this set, as released by CPO, has 22 CD's.  The few extra works cannot take up that many extra discs.  I think most sets have anywhere from 10 to 14 CD's.  Is it due to the specific placements of the works in this set?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 28, 2009, 07:06:24 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 28, 2009, 06:06:32 AM
If I remember correctly, this set, as released by CPO, has 22 CD's.  The few extra works cannot take up that many extra discs.  I think most sets have anywhere from 10 to 14 CD's.  Is it due to the specific placements of the works in this set?

Any even remotely complete set can't fit on less than 15 discs... and from then it depends on how you count.
Weinberger includes all arrangements, all alternative versions, and all spurious/apocryphal works.

BWV 131a, 525-596, 599-751, 754-758, 762, 765-770, 790, 802-805, 957, 1027a, 1079/5, 1080, 1085, 1090-1121, 1128 (incl. resp. alternative versions)
Apoc.: BWV 42, 49, 50, 52, 55, 58, 59, 62a, 63, 64, 67, 68, 77, 78, 90
Deest: 20 works w/o BWV.
22 CDs, 21 different organs.

Most of the CDs with over 70 minutes of music, totaling 24 hours and 40 minutes.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 28, 2009, 07:33:10 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 28, 2009, 07:06:24 AM
Any even remotely complete set can't fit on less than 15 discs... and from then it depends on how you count.
Weinberger includes all arrangements, all alternative versions, and all spurious/apocryphal works.

BWV 131a, 525-596, 599-751, 754-758, 762, 765-770, 790, 802-805, 957, 1027a, 1079/5, 1080, 1085, 1090-1121, 1128 (incl. resp. alternative versions)
Apoc.: BWV 42, 49, 50, 52, 55, 58, 59, 62a, 63, 64, 67, 68, 77, 78, 90
Deest: 20 works w/o BWV.
22 CDs, 21 different organs.

Most of the CDs with over 70 minutes of music, totaling 24 hours and 40 minutes.

I have 2 sets of Bach Organ Works by Helmut Walcha, one on Document and the other on Archive.  The Document set has 10 CD's (probably incomplete) but every disc is 70+ min.  The DG Archive set has 12 CD's.  The Werner Jacob's set on EMI has 16 CD's while the Peter Hurford's 5 volumes total 15 CD's.  I also have the complete organ works by Hans Fagius in that mammoth 155-CD set released by Brilliant, 5-6 singles each by Marie-Claire Alain, Simon Preston, Wolfgang Rubsam and the 18-LP set on EMI by Lionel Rogg.  I would love to have a full set by Rogg released on EMI.  The full sets by Weinberger and Alain's third recording certainly can be included in my collection down the road ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 28, 2009, 12:28:09 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 28, 2009, 05:23:58 AM
I can get the Weinberger's set at a great price but do not want to end up having a box set that ultimately may prove unsatisfactory.  I have yet to find any uniformly positive opinions of him ...

Forget about the "uniform" business.  There isn't a performer on the planet who could be uniformly excellent throughout a 22 disc cycle.  If you must have complete sets, Weinberger is about as good as it gets for a modern box.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 28, 2009, 07:48:15 PM
Here is my Lionel Rogg's Complete Bach Organ Works on 18-LP EMI set in pristine condition - played only once.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on March 01, 2009, 12:59:39 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 28, 2009, 07:48:15 PM
Here is my Lionel Rogg's Complete Bach Organ Works on 18-LP EMI set in pristine condition - played only once.

Rogg didn't impress me either.  :)

For completes I'm considering the new Koopman and Weinberger.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 01, 2009, 01:22:46 PM
Quote from: Que on March 01, 2009, 12:59:39 AM
Rogg didn't impress me either.  :)

For completes I'm considering the new Koopman and Weinberger.

Q

How about the GREAT Gustav Leonhardt?  Didn't he record the Complete Bach Organ Works once?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 01, 2009, 01:24:37 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 01, 2009, 01:22:46 PM
How about the GREAT Gustav Leonhardt?  Didn't he record the Complete Bach Organ Works once?

NEVER.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 01, 2009, 01:51:32 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 01, 2009, 01:22:46 PM
How about the GREAT Gustav Leonhardt?  Didn't he record the Complete Bach Organ Works once?

He has recorded what amounts to 3 - 4 CDs of organ music by Bach. Some of this music is without pedal part.

Released by Seon and DHM.

I think the reason why he did not record more Bach is, that his pedal technique does not match his manual technique. Altogether he has not recorded much organ music with difficult pedal parts.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 07:12:28 AM
Has anyone heard these recordings with Piet Kee?

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 02, 2009, 07:19:07 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 07:12:28 AM
Has anyone heard these recordings with Piet Kee?



I have a few recordings by Piet Kee but they are for works of Buxtehude and Sweelinck.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 09:42:38 AM
Absolutely off-topic: Where did you buy your Annie Fischer set, Coop? I want to use your previous research about it  ;).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 02, 2009, 09:45:20 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 07:12:28 AM
Has anyone heard these recordings with Piet Kee?

I've had them quite a few years.  Don't remember much except that I find Kee's Trio Sonata in E minor outstanding.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 02, 2009, 11:43:51 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 07:12:28 AM
Has anyone heard these recordings with Piet Kee?

As you may suppose I own all of them (except the one with the spurious Eight small Preludes and Fuges which also contains the - spurious??? -Toccata BWV 565). Kee is reliable, offers a bit earthboumd and matter-of-fact playing, but with fine great plenum registrations in the free organ works on these marvellous organs in good sound, reminds me actually a bit of van Oortmerssen, - acquired the CDs as much for the sake of the organs in question. Do not regret it, but concerning the interpretation I much prefer e.g. Alain, Weinberger, Rübsam and Heiller.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on March 02, 2009, 11:54:29 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 07:12:28 AM
Has anyone heard these recordings with Piet Kee?

Not exactly, but I heard him live: good, solid and straight forward Bach playing in the best Dutch organ tradition, but not remarkable.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 02, 2009, 01:15:34 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 09:42:38 AM
Absolutely off-topic: Where did you buy your Annie Fischer set, Coop? I want to use your previous research about it  ;).

I bought it from a US-based e-tailer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 02, 2009, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: premont on March 02, 2009, 11:43:51 AM
As you may suppose I own all of them (except the one with the spurious Eight small Preludes and Fuges which also contains the - spurious??? -Toccata BWV 565).

I know BWV 565 is considererd "spurious", but I can't imagine any other composer of that period coming up with such a compelling organ work.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 02, 2009, 01:38:37 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 02, 2009, 01:30:51 PM
I know BWV 565 is considererd "spurious", but I can't imagine any other composer of that period coming up with such a compelling organ work.

Neither can I, and I am convinced of its authenticity.

Note my question marks.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 02, 2009, 01:44:57 PM
It is a foregone conclusion that JS Bach was the composer of bwv 565.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 02, 2009, 01:47:06 PM
QuoteIt is a foregone conclusion that JS Bach was the composer of bwv 565.
Huh??

Quote from: premont on March 02, 2009, 01:38:37 PM
Neither can I, and I am convinced of its authenticity.
Note my question marks.


Why don't you listen to Bach's "Italian Concerto" Italian concertos or any of his other works _based_ on the works of other composers... then you might be amenable to the idea.
That's the genius of Bach (in part), that he infused it with something very special virtually just by touching it.

(However, I still refuse to give credence to the--not very scientific or evidence-backed, in any case--hypothesis that the Suites are not actually by Bach but his wife, instead.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 02, 2009, 01:54:34 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 02, 2009, 01:47:06 PM
Why don't you listen to Bach's "Italian Concerto" or any of his other works _based_ on the works of other composers... then you might be amenable to the idea.
That's the genius of Bach (in part), that he infused it with something very special virtually just by touching it.

No need, I know all Bach´s instrumental works better than I know my own pocket, so I do not have to listen to them. When I listen to them, I do this to hear, what great artists make of them.

BTW which other work constituted the basis for Bach´s Comcerto in Italian manner?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 06:53:00 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 02, 2009, 01:15:34 PM
I bought it from a US-based e-tailer.

It's not too much information  ;D. Thanks, anyway.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 07:39:25 PM
Quote from: premont on March 02, 2009, 11:43:51 AM
As you may suppose I own all of them

Your collection, Premont, challenges the possibilities of my mind ;D.

Thanks to all: The opinions about Kee seem rather similar.


P.S.: Has anyone attended concerts by some of the great organists commented here? Que listened to Piet Kee and Premont, probably, to Knud Vad. Anyone else?

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 03, 2009, 12:53:39 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 07:39:25 PM
P.S.: Has anyone attended concerts by some of the great organists commented here? Que listened to Piet Kee and Premont, probably, to Knud Vad. Anyone else?

Yes. When I was a student in Copenhagen many years ago,  I attended rather many organ recitals, and many of the greatest visited Copenhagen regularily at that time. So I have heard among others Helmut Walcha, Marie-Claire Alain, Anton Heiller, Walter Kraft and Karl Richter, all of them almost exclusively playing Bach. Walcha´s interpretation was like a carbon copy of his recordings, but he also played  his own arrangement of the six-part Ricercare from Mus.Opf., which he for some strange reason never recorded. Anton Heiller, whom I heard four times and Walter Kraft, whom I heard three times, impressed me the most. Strong, concentrated and expressive interpretations, far surpassing their recordings. Both used to conclude the recital with some improvisation in modern but still strict polyphonic style. Karl Richter was not that impressive, but still better than the recordings he had made for DG a few years earlier, and he just played his usual program (I even own a Swiss live CD by him from another recital containing an almost  identical program) BWV 565, 542, 548 and the Sei Gegrüsset Variations of course. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on March 03, 2009, 03:19:11 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 02, 2009, 01:30:51 PM
I know BWV 565 is considererd "spurious", but I can't imagine any other composer of that period coming up with such a compelling organ work.

Your imagination is limited. Perhaps BWV 565 was in fact Pachelbel's greatest organ work and copied by J. S. Bach for that reason?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 03, 2009, 06:12:55 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 03, 2009, 03:19:11 AM
Your imagination is limited. Perhaps BWV 565 was in fact Pachelbel's greatest organ work and copied by J. S. Bach for that reason?

Are you familiar with Pachelbel's organ works?  I have two cycles of them on Centaur and Dorian, and I'd bet my life that Pachelbel had neither the musical talent nor the disposition to write BWV 565.  So you can take your insult and ridiculous speculation and shove it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on March 03, 2009, 07:45:51 AM
BWV 565 doesn't sound very "Bach-ish" to my ears, at least in comparison to the other toccata and fugues.  But that doesn't mean I can't believe he wrote it.   The idea that it is Bach's transcription of a virtuoso piece for solo violin, either by Bach or someone else, doesn't seem so far fetched either.  In the end, my only concern is that it is good, and if someone else wrote it, too bad they didn't get credit.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on March 03, 2009, 10:53:31 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 03, 2009, 06:12:55 AM
Are you familiar with Pachelbel's organ works?

Yeah, some of them (Rübsam/Naxos).

Quote from: Bulldog on March 03, 2009, 06:12:55 AMI have two cycles of them on Centaur and Dorian, and I'd bet my life that Pachelbel had neither the musical talent nor the disposition to write BWV 565.  So you can take your insult and ridiculous speculation and shove it.

Don't bet your life for anything. As I said, BWV 565 would be one of Pachelbel's brightest moments. I am not suggesting that BWV 565 is by Pachelbel, I just can imagine such things. If it insults you I am sorry for your thin skin.  ::)

Quote from: nut-job on March 03, 2009, 07:45:51 AM
BWV 565 doesn't sound very "Bach-ish" to my ears, at least in comparison to the other toccata and fugues.

My thoughts exactly. It's not that complex in it's textures. Perhaps that's why it's so popular? 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 03, 2009, 11:17:14 AM
Neither do I hear any Pachelbel at all in BWV 565. Note that we have not got any "proof" that the work was not written by Bach, on the contrary we have the atribution to Bach in the beautiful Rinck manuscript. If the work is written by Bach, it must be a work of his youth. Mind you that he explored the Toccata form eagerly in his youth (e.g. the Toccate manualiter BWV 910-916 and the related Fantasie a-minor BWV 922). All in all I tend to consider BWV 565 an authentic work by Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on March 03, 2009, 11:23:42 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 03, 2009, 03:19:11 AM
Your imagination is limited.

Making more friends, Poju?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on March 03, 2009, 11:52:35 AM
Quote from: premont on March 03, 2009, 11:17:14 AM
Neither do I hear any Pachelbel at all in BWV 565. Note that we have not got any "proof" that the work was not written by Bach, on the contrary we have the atribution to Bach in the beautiful Rinck manuscript. If the work is written by Bach, it must be a work of his youth. Mind you that he explored the Toccata form eagerly in his youth (e.g. the Toccate manualiter BWV 910-916 and the related Fantasie a-minor BWV 922). All in all I tend to consider BWV 565 an authentic work by Bach.

I would agree with that.  The Toccate BWV910-6 are the most similar within Bach's established works.  If not strictly by Bach, I could imagine it was derived, transcribed, or adapted from something by Buxtehude. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 03, 2009, 12:01:42 PM
Quote from: premont on March 03, 2009, 11:17:14 AM
Neither do I hear any Pachelbel at all in BWV 565.

Isn't the pedal work rather more Pachelbelish than Bachish, though? (And haven't I heard Koopman say something to that effect?)
But yes, we do indeed not have proof one way or the other. Although after reading R.D Claus' book on it, I should think that it's 49-51 on the side of not being original Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 03, 2009, 12:22:02 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 03, 2009, 12:01:42 PM
Isn't the pedal work rather more Pachelbelish than Bachish, though? (And haven't I heard Koopman say something to that effect?)
But yes, we do indeed not have proof one way or the other. Although after reading R.D Claus' book on it, I should think that it's 49-51 on the side of not being original Bach.

In the Toccata the pedal hasn´t but supporting function. This is a common occurrence in German baroque organ music and may indicate anyone, even the young Bach. In the Fugue I don´t hear Pachelbel in the use of the pedal, rather Buxtehude or someone influenced by him, and this might well indicate the young Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 03, 2009, 12:28:05 PM
Quote from: premont on March 03, 2009, 12:22:02 PM
In the Toccata the pedal hasn´t but supporting function. This is a common occurrence in German baroque organ music and may indicate anyone, even the young Bach. In the Fugue I don´t hear Pachelbel in the use of the pedal, rather Buxtehude or someone influenced by him, and this might well indicate the young Bach.

I'm sorry... I meant Buxtehude.  Well, that's at least who Koopman talks about.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 03, 2009, 12:31:26 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 03, 2009, 12:28:05 PM
I'm sorry... I meant Buxtehude.  Well, that's at least who Koopman talks about.

I agree about that, but I do not find, that this rules out the young Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on March 03, 2009, 12:33:11 PM
Even Bach was young once . . . .
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 03, 2009, 12:40:14 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 03, 2009, 10:53:31 AM
Yeah, some of them (Rübsam/Naxos).

Since you now indicate that you have little exposure to Pachelbel's organ works, I suggest you stick to the one composer you do know something about.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 03, 2009, 12:44:09 PM
Quote from: premont on March 03, 2009, 12:22:02 PM
In the Toccata the pedal hasn´t but supporting function. This is a common occurrence in German baroque organ music and may indicate anyone, even the young Bach. In the Fugue I don´t hear Pachelbel in the use of the pedal, rather Buxtehude or someone influenced by him, and this might well indicate the young Bach.

In addition, after hearing every Pachelbel organ work, I'm very confident that none of them has the type of emotional content in BWV 565. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 03, 2009, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 03, 2009, 12:40:14 PM
Since you now indicate that you have little exposure to Pachelbel's organ works, I suggest you stick to the one composer you do know something about.


Highly seconded.
I suppose you mean Elgar. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 03, 2009, 02:12:48 PM
I had been out of house all the day.

Now, I was hoping to read some nice memories about great recitals. But the thread is on fire, guys.

My vote about the BWV 565:

The young Bach searching for a job or trying to strike some people with theatrical effects. Bach is there, but in a youthful and showy sense.   

Just today I bought the set by Karl Richter (3 CDs) recommended by Jens and the first track brought to my ears –what else?-, the Dracula Toccata. Pure Bach, I swear  0:).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 03, 2009, 07:58:11 PM
Quote from: premont on March 03, 2009, 12:45:55 PM
Highly seconded.
I suppose you mean Elgar. ;)

Actually, I was thinking of the dynamic Dittersdorf. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2009, 12:41:43 AM
This is very unpleasant forum. Most probably BWV 565 is by Bach. I just told you guys I could believe if someone wise told me it is by Pachelbel or Buxtehude or even Bruhns. Why on earth is the authenticy in doubt if the work is so clearly Bach?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 04, 2009, 06:02:28 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 04, 2009, 12:41:43 AM
This is very unpleasant forum.

Quote from: 71 dB on March 03, 2009, 03:19:11 AM
Your imagination is limited.

Part of your problem may be your way of addressing yourself.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 04, 2009, 06:08:30 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 03, 2009, 07:58:11 PM
Actually, I was thinking of the dynamic Dittersdorf. ;D

One more Dittersdorf?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 04, 2009, 07:04:56 AM
Quote from: premont on March 04, 2009, 06:08:30 AM
One more Dittersdorf?

Let's hope there's only one.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2009, 11:05:36 AM
Quote from: premont on March 04, 2009, 06:02:28 AM
Part of your problem may be your way of addressing yourself.

Well, if he says he can't imagine BWV 565 being composed by someone else than Bach then calling his imagination limited is about stating a fact rather than an insult. At least I didn't mean to insult anyone.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2009, 11:10:08 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 04, 2009, 07:04:56 AM
Let's hope there's only one.

Why? Is someone forcing you to listen to Dittersdorf? You can ignore all the Dittersdorfs there ever was, can't you?

I really don't get the anti-Dittersdorf vibe around here. He's a very fine composer and I enjoy his music a lot.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 04, 2009, 12:08:12 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 04, 2009, 11:10:08 AM
Why? Is someone forcing you to listen to Dittersdorf? You can ignore all the Dittersdorfs there ever was, can't you?


Wouldn't you agree that one Dittersdorf is enough?  Right after this posting, I'm going to check the phone book to make sure there aren't any of them right here in Albuquerque.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bhodges on March 04, 2009, 12:10:54 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 04, 2009, 12:08:12 PM
Wouldn't you agree that one Dittersdorf is enough?  Right after this posting, I'm going to check the phone book to make sure there aren't any of them right here in Albuquerque.

;D  ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 04, 2009, 12:15:38 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 04, 2009, 12:41:43 AM
This is very unpleasant forum.

I'm sorry, but I can't stop laughing at your description of our esteemed board.  
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 04, 2009, 05:36:34 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 04, 2009, 12:41:43 AM
This is very unpleasant forum. Most probably BWV 565 is by Bach. I just told you guys I could believe if someone wise told me it is by Pachelbel or Buxtehude or even Bruhns. Why on earth is the authenticy in doubt if the work is so clearly Bach?

One of my sisters told me while she was an exchange student to China a number of years ago, she met an Italian who was a fellow exchange student and his objective of being there was to complete a research paper that "proved" that Marco Polo NEVER went to China ... 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 04, 2009, 06:01:17 PM
Well, that Italian lost his opportunity:

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 04, 2009, 06:03:45 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 04, 2009, 06:01:17 PM
Well, that Italian lost his opportunity:



He could have published something in Italian ONLY ...    ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 04, 2009, 06:18:26 PM
It's always possible, Coop  ;D.

Actually, all is possible. But possible don't mean probable  8).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 04, 2009, 06:28:57 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 04, 2009, 06:03:45 PM
He could have published something in Italian ONLY ...    ;D

This brings us back to the point whether JS Bach was the composer of bwv 565 ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 04, 2009, 06:48:56 PM
I'm afraid that's right, Coop.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 04, 2009, 07:12:50 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 04, 2009, 06:48:56 PM
I'm afraid that's right, Coop.

Perhaps there is as high a probability that JS Bach did not compose bwv 565 as Marco polo had never visited China ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 04, 2009, 08:04:00 PM
I don't think so because to prove a fake attribution requires proofs.

The arguments against the authenticity of BWV 565 are merely stylistic; but those reasons are refused by important scholars. For instance, Christoph Wolff claims its authenticity in his book Johann Sebastian Bach. The Learned Musician, and he is probably the most important scholar on Bach at the moment.     
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 05, 2009, 01:40:56 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 04, 2009, 08:04:00 PM
I don't think so because to prove a fake attribution requires proofs.

The arguments against the authenticity of BWV 565 are merely stylistic; but those reasons are refused by important scholars. For instance, Christoph Wolff claims its authenticity in his book Johann Sebastian Bach. The Learned Musician, and he is probably the most important scholar on Bach at the moment.     

I reckon he's also the same scholar who won't allow unrestricted access to the Bach archive to scholars who don't agree with him? When it comes to the OVPP debate, I'd like to believe that the Wolff/Koopman group is right, not the Rifkinites. But that doesn't mean I (or anyone else) should be completely uncritical of Wolff's doing.

In any case, argumentum ad verecundiam ("Ipse dixit") shouldn't convince anyone because it's a fallacy and itself insufficient to sway any thinking person. (Now if we read "The Learned Musician", we might be convinced, of course.)

In any case, I think there is enough of a hypothesis by respectable scholars our there to raise the question as to BWV565's authenticity. Whether we believe it is by Bach or not is ultimately a matter of our faith/flexibility/conviction. Most of us have always associated it strongly with Bach and could probably not have their minds changed if we found the original manuscript by Albertus Cornelius Kreuzbeiniger himself. Fair enough: I could probably not be convinced that the Cello Suites are not by the master himself, even if we found a letter of JS congratulating Magdalena on such a fine composition. (He would probably have whispered it into her ear, while making child No.21 -- so no such letter will likely appear.)

P.S. Most (probably 98% or more) of attributions are based solely on stylistic grounds, not "proof". I don't know where you get that "proof" thing from. That is largely impossible with paintings or compositions or other artistic works from that period. It's all about stylistic 'evidence'.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 05, 2009, 06:49:29 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 05, 2009, 01:40:56 AM
I reckon he's also the same scholar who won't allow unrestricted access to the Bach archive to scholars who don't agree with him?

Well, that's an argumentum ad hominem, Mr. Laurson.

Quote from: jlaurson on March 05, 2009, 01:40:56 AM
In any case, argumentum ad verecundiam ("Ipse dixit") shouldn't convince anyone because it's a fallacy and itself insufficient to sway any thinking person. (Now if we read "The Learned Musician", we might be convinced, of course.)

You have missed the most important part of the discussion. We were talking about possibilities v/s probabilities. I admit a possibility of fake attribution, but one or several stylistic studies aren't enough (or conclusive) , when –on the other hand- tradition, documents and many respectable scholars (considering their own analyses), state the authenticity of the work. When authenticity is a problem, the authority on the subject is an essential criterion. Everyday, as you know, expert reports are accepted o rejected on the basis of the authority on the subject and that isn't an argumentum ad verecundiam. It's only a practical (and wise) solution when there are different opinions.

Quote from: jlaurson on March 05, 2009, 01:40:56 AM
P.S. Most (probably 98% or more) of attributions are based solely on stylistic grounds, not "proof". I don't know where you get that "proof" thing from. That is largely impossible with paintings or compositions or other artistic works from that period. It's all about stylistic 'evidence'.

That's wrong because in the 98% of the cases, the attributions aren't dubious or are clearly documented.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on March 05, 2009, 06:55:02 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 04, 2009, 12:08:12 PM
Wouldn't you agree that one Dittersdorf is enough?

No. Seven Dittersdorfs would be nice, one for each day of the week!  0:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 05, 2009, 07:04:32 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 05, 2009, 06:49:29 AM

Well, that's an argumentum ad hominem, Mr. Laurson.

Well, almost. This one actually categorizes as a 'snide aside'.

Quote
That's wrong because in the 98% of the cases, the attributions aren't dubious or are clearly documented.

Well, if they're clearly documented, then the problem of authenticity (or the 'original attribution') doesn't arise in the first place. Where the problem does arise, such attribution is absent. Certainly we were talking about that subset where questions of authenticity and attribution must be considered. And the vast majority of those are not questioned/re-attributed based on new found hard evidence to the contrary but usually based on stylistic analysis or the like. (And yes, I concede that the argument of a knowledgeable Bach scholar does have great weight here, but that's ultimately reliant on the quality of his argument, not the respect he commands from his peers.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on March 05, 2009, 09:05:49 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 05, 2009, 07:04:32 AM
Well, if they're clearly documented, then the problem of authenticity (or the 'original attribution') doesn't arise in the first place. Where the problem does arise, such attribution is absent. Certainly we were talking about that subset where questions of authenticity and attribution must be considered. And the vast majority of those are not questioned/re-attributed based on new found hard evidence to the contrary but usually based on stylistic analysis or the like. (And yes, I concede that the argument of a knowledgeable Bach scholar does have great weight here, but that's ultimately reliant on the quality of his argument, not the respect he commands from his peers.)

I guess musicologists have to have something to occupy themselves, but deciding attribution based on stylistic analysis seems dicey.  People are unpredictable, afterall.  At least James is honest, "I don't like it, therefore it is not by Bach."  Straightforward reasoning which I suspect is the subtext of many a musicologist's analysis.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: rubio on March 05, 2009, 09:33:59 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 10:22:50 AM
I find this historical set by Walcha an excellent set to own.  I am a little half way through the set.  For under $20, this was heck of a bargain and the SQ is quite good too ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516sJ6gYtzL._SS400_.jpg)

My only Bach Organ set is the stereo Walcha (which I really like), and I wonder if i should go for the above set as well. It's cheap, but maybe I'm better off going for another performer? And I wonder if the sound quality is markedly inferior to the DG Original Masters incarnation?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on March 05, 2009, 12:55:39 PM
Quote from: rubio on March 05, 2009, 09:33:59 AM
My only Bach Organ set is the stereo Walcha (which I really like), and I wonder if i should go for the above set as well. It's cheap, but maybe I'm better off going for another performer? And I wonder if the sound quality is markedly inferior to the DG Original Masters incarnation?

If you only have one why get a second set by the same artist?  Walcha is good, but a bit stodgy and didn't change much over the years.  If you are on a budget, better to pick up a few disks that have your favorite pieces by contrasting artists.  A few installments of the Weinberger set would be a significant contrast to Walcha, for example.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 05, 2009, 03:00:10 PM
Quote from: nut-job on March 05, 2009, 12:55:39 PM
If you only have one why get a second set by the same artist?  Walcha is good, but a bit stodgy and didn't change much over the years.  If you are on a budget, better to pick up a few disks that have your favorite pieces by contrasting artists.  A few installments of the Weinberger set would be a significant contrast to Walcha, for example.


I'm with you.  I learned my lesson a few years ago with Tureck's various recordings of the Goldberg Variations.  I had her version on the Philips Great Pianists of the Century series and her more recent DG account; loved both of them.  So I acquired another two versions on VAI Audio.  That was a waste of money and time, because there was nothing of interest in either of the two additional versions. 

If I owned a complete Bach/Walcha set (and I don't), I'd never get another one.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 05, 2009, 06:29:13 PM
Quote from: nut-job on March 05, 2009, 12:55:39 PM
If you only have one why get a second set by the same artist? 

I have every set of Beethoven Symphonies ever recorded by Karajan - from the first set with Philharmonia Orchestra and every set on DG plus the 1963 SACD set.  I see nothing wrong with this collection style ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 05, 2009, 06:29:56 PM
Just ordered this yesterday.  Should be fun to watch ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FcgHXc4TL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 06, 2009, 08:22:16 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 05, 2009, 06:29:13 PM
I have every set of Beethoven Symphonies ever recorded by Karajan - from the first set with Philharmonia Orchestra and every set on DG plus the 1963 SACD set.  I see nothing wrong with this collection style ...

As long as you have money to burn.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on March 06, 2009, 10:51:52 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 05, 2009, 06:29:13 PM
I have every set of Beethoven Symphonies ever recorded by Karajan - from the first set with Philharmonia Orchestra and every set on DG plus the 1963 SACD set.  I see nothing wrong with this collection style ...

I'm not going to embarrass myself by telling you your collecting style is wrong if it pleases you.   I think HvK's 77 cycle is probably my favorite, I have his '63, which is also good but which adds little.  I had one disc from the digital cycle (I got it before the '77 cycle was released on CD) which I found unsatisfactory.  I haven't heard the Philharmonia set.  But there is a LOT more to Beethoven than Karajan.  Given limited funds and/or space a diversity of artists is more enriching (for me).

On the other hand, there are more significant differences between performances in Karajan's Brahms symphonies, although in no case is Karajan's recording my favorite of a Brahms symphony (except perhaps the '64 Symphony #4).


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 06, 2009, 05:43:20 PM
Quote from: nut-job on March 06, 2009, 10:51:52 AM
I'm not going to embarrass myself by telling you your collecting style is wrong if it pleases you.   I think HvK's 77 cycle is probably my favorite, I have his '63, which is also good but which adds little.  I had one disc from the digital cycle (I got it before the '77 cycle was released on CD) which I found unsatisfactory.  I haven't heard the Philharmonia set.  But there is a LOT more to Beethoven than Karajan.  Given limited funds and/or space a diversity of artists is more enriching (for me).


I have 16 Beethoven cycles, which includes Bernstein with the VPO, Christopher Hogwood and the AAM, Toscanini and the NBC Symphony, Kurt Masur and the Gewandhaus Orchestra and quite a few others.  The last cycle I bought was the Harnoncourt and the European Chamber Orchestra, which is still in cellophane.  I think I will probably add the cycles by Colin Davis, John Eliot Gardiner and Charles Mackerras to my collection later this year.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on March 07, 2009, 06:06:19 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 06, 2009, 05:43:20 PM
I have 16 Beethoven cycles, which includes Bernstein with the VPO, Christopher Hogwood and the AAM, Toscanini and the NBC Symphony, Kurt Masur and the Gewandhaus Orchestra and quite a few others.  The last cycle I bought was the Harnoncourt and the European Chamber Orchestra, which is still in cellophane.  I think I will probably add the cycles by Colin Davis, John Eliot Gardiner and Charles Mackerras to my collection later this year.

I don't know how someone would have time to listen to that much Beethoven.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 07, 2009, 06:20:07 AM
Quote from: nut-job on March 07, 2009, 06:06:19 AM
I don't know how someone would have time to listen to that much Beethoven.


FK also has at least 16 Beethoven cycles.  Perhaps he will have a good answer.  My answer is I can listen to these cycles during my retirement years.  So far, I have listened to these cycles only once (i.e. when I bought them) ...   

I will soon have 7 Complete Bach Organ Works.  I think the same argument  will also apply there ...    ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 07, 2009, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: nut-job on March 07, 2009, 06:06:19 AM
I don't know how someone would have time to listen to that much Beethoven.


And even if I had the time, why the Colin Davis cycle?  ???   ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 07, 2009, 09:19:48 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 07, 2009, 09:16:49 AM
And even if I had the time, why the Colin Davis cycle?  ???   ;)

But why not?  FK thinks it is a decent set and I already have many Colin Davis' recordings ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2009, 10:02:35 AM
This set looks quite good:

Johann Sebastian Bach
Orgelwerke auf Silbermann-Orgeln
Organ Works

Berlin Classics, ADD, 1961-1972
15 CDs

Performers:
Arthur Eger Orgel
Christoph Albrecht Orgel
Erich Piasetzki Orgel
Günter Metz Orgel
Hannes Kästner Orgel
Hans Otto Orgel
Herbert Collum Orgel
Johannes Schäfer Orgel
Johannes-Ernst Köhler Orgel
Robert Köbler Orgel

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 07, 2009, 10:09:34 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 07, 2009, 09:19:48 AM
But why not?  FK thinks it is a decent set and I already have many Colin Davis' recordings ...

If you make "Why not" your acquisition standard for recordings, then indeed, "why not".

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2009, 10:02:35 AM
This set looks quite good:

Old fashioned, but all the single issues I have from that set I really like... and the occ. distortions are not too bad.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 07, 2009, 10:15:57 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 07, 2009, 10:09:34 AM
Old fashioned, but all the single issues I have from that set I really like... and the occ. distortions are not too bad.

Please elucidate, what exactly do you mean by old-fashioned?  Are you referring to the sound quality, recording technology or the performance style?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2009, 10:32:36 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 07, 2009, 10:15:57 AM
Please elucidate, what exactly do you mean by old-fashioned?  Are you referring to the sound quality, recording technology or the performance style?

You can get some personal idea here (I don't agree too much with that description, but in fact they are old recordings):

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Orgelwerke-auf-Silbermann-Orgeln/hnum/8530011

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 07, 2009, 11:20:17 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2009, 10:02:35 AM
This set looks quite good:

Johann Sebastian Bach
Orgelwerke auf Silbermann-Orgeln
Organ Works

Berlin Classics, ADD, 1961-1972
15 CDs


Oldfashioned is exactly the word I would use to describe the performing style. Rather legato touch, changing registrations et.c. in the way Bach´s organ works also was played in Western Germany during the 1950es-1960es by e.g. Michael Schneider, Heinz Wunderlich and also Karl Richter. The SQ is generally good, and the organs very charming. I wrote about the set earlier in this thread, se reply 11.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 07, 2009, 11:27:13 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 05, 2009, 01:40:56 AM
P.S. Most (probably 98% or more) of attributions are based solely on stylistic grounds, not "proof".

Would you mind to explain, what you mean when you use the word "attribution". Do you mean any work which´s autenticity is not 100% certain?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 07, 2009, 11:30:36 AM
Quote from: James on March 05, 2009, 10:43:50 AM
the sound quality of that set is crap, avoid at all costs.

It is rather good for its age BTW. Should we reject all recordings by Cortot, Schnabel, Furtwangler and the like for the same reason??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 07, 2009, 11:34:47 AM
Quote from: nut-job on March 05, 2009, 12:55:39 PM
If you only have one why get a second set by the same artist?  Walcha is good, but a bit stodgy and didn't change much over the years.  If you are on a budget, better to pick up a few disks that have your favorite pieces by contrasting artists.  A few installments of the Weinberger set would be a significant contrast to Walcha, for example.

Agreed. Only specially interested listeners need to own more than one Walcha set. For the general listener a contrasting set would be preferable, and the Weinberger set would be a splendid contrast.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 07, 2009, 11:36:49 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 05, 2009, 03:00:10 PM
If I owned a complete Bach/Walcha set (and I don't), I'd never get another one.

What if he had recorded the Goldberg variations twice or maybe even three times??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2009, 11:44:59 AM
Quote from: premont on March 07, 2009, 11:20:17 AM
Oldfashioned is exactly the word I would use to describe the performing style. Rather legato touch, changing registrations et.c. in the way Bach´s organ works also was played in Western Germany during the 1950es-1960es by e.g. Michael Schneider, Heinz Wunderlich and also Karl Richter. The SQ is generally good, and the organs very charming. I wrote about the set earlier in this thread, se reply 11.

Hi, Premont.

Your opinion is now a little bit more categorical than in the past. Then you described the playing like "a bit old-fashioned", but adding that the "artistic level is variable, but most often very good and never less than acceptable. Recorded sound is better than could be anticipated". 

Anyway, I just have heard some little examples on the web.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on March 07, 2009, 11:52:45 AM
Quote from: nut-job on March 06, 2009, 10:51:52 AM
But there is a LOT more to Beethoven than Karajan.

Quoted for truth.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 07, 2009, 11:58:31 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2009, 11:44:59 AM
Hi, Premont.

Your opinion is now a little bit more categorical than in the past. Then you described the playing like "a bit old-fashioned", but adding that the "artistic level is variable, but most often very good and never less than acceptable. Recorded sound is better than could be anticipated". 

Anyway, I just have heard some little examples on the web.


Well, my opinion is actually unchanged. Writing "a bit" oldfashioned earlier is my usual (national) way of understating things.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 07, 2009, 11:59:37 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 07, 2009, 11:52:45 AM
Quoted for truth.

;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2009, 12:33:10 PM
Quote from: premont on March 07, 2009, 11:58:31 AM
Well, my opinion is actually unchanged. Writing "a bit" oldfashioned earlier is my usual (national) way of understating things.

Sure, but I did read your first post almost like a (strong) recommendation and this isn't so clear in the latter. Probably, just subtle nuances of meaning ;D. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 07, 2009, 12:50:31 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2009, 12:33:10 PM
Sure, but I did read your first post almost like a (strong) recommendation and this isn't so clear in the latter. Probably, just subtle nuances of meaning ;D. 

A qualified recommendation all the same. The Gottfried Silbermann organs are indeed interesting, and the playing generally reliable, sometimes even very good, but somewhat (maybe the best word) oldfashioned. Not a set for the fanatic HIP-ster, but neither are Walcha, Rogg, Richter and a lot of others.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: rubio on March 07, 2009, 02:26:27 PM
Quote from: premont on March 07, 2009, 11:30:36 AM
It is rather good for its age BTW. Should we reject all recordings by Cortot, Schnabel, Furtwangler and the like for the same reason??

I just wonder if the Documents set is much inferior to the Original Masters incarnation, and if it's sufficiently different performance-wise to the Walcha stereo set?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 07, 2009, 03:21:48 PM
Quote from: rubio on March 07, 2009, 02:26:27 PM
I just wonder if the Documents set is much inferior to the Original Masters incarnation, and if it's sufficiently different performance-wise to the Walcha stereo set?

If you are a Walcha maniac like me, you will want both the mono and the stereo integral. But if you are not, I do not know.

The source material for the Documents set were probably original Archiv LPs, whereas the source material for the DG Originals set was the original tapes. And the DG set is better sounding, but not that much - IMO - that you are not well served by the Documents set, not the least regarding the cost. As I have written elsewhere the Doument set has got a tad of added ambience, (George, you know whom, does not -in principle - like it, but he has not heard the Document set) and it is done tastefully. Ultimately I would prefer to be without it, but on the other hand I do not think it detracts critically from the sound.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 07, 2009, 10:10:08 PM
Quote from: premont on March 07, 2009, 11:36:49 AM
What if he had recorded the Goldberg variations twice or maybe even three times??

No problem.  One or two discs for the Goldbergs is far different than a complete set of Bach's organ works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 07, 2009, 11:19:03 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 07, 2009, 10:10:08 PM
No problem.  One or two discs for the Goldbergs is far different than a complete set of Bach's organ works.

We made the comparison with the WTC above. 4 or 5 CDs pr set.
And your 150++ sets of Goldberg variations equal at least about 35 sets of the WTC
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 08, 2009, 10:42:47 AM
Quote from: James on March 08, 2009, 09:54:39 AM
that is not what I am saying..

that particular issue is horrid, the sound is dreadful & unacceptable. might as well spend the extra money on something that is so much better, especially with this music.

Disagree. This is a milestone recording both as to interpretation as to recorded sound for its age. If we should reject this recording because of bad sound, we should also reject all recordings made at least before 1950 for the same reason. But if one owns Walchas stereo set, parts of which on the other hand are badly recorded regarding the years of the recordings, one may not need the mono set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 08, 2009, 12:24:41 PM
Quote from: James on March 08, 2009, 10:51:59 AM
no no no that cheaply priced issue of the earlier mono is downright unacceptable. avoid.

It is better than its reputation. How much of it have you heard?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 08, 2009, 01:03:31 PM
Quote from: rubio on March 07, 2009, 02:26:27 PM
I just wonder if the Documents set is much inferior to the Original Masters incarnation, and if it's sufficiently different performance-wise to the Walcha stereo set?

I found the Documents set quite enjoyable.  While the sound may not be first rate, it is clear and Walcha articulated the organ works of Bach well IMO.  I also have the Walcha's stereo set on Archive, which I have not played yet.  I also plan on getting the Weinberger's 22-CD set just to get some works that have been left out of the Walcha's sets.  At any rate, I still consider Walcha the best among the organists.  We are talking about someone who was blind most of his adult life when we examine his towering achievement on the organ ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 08, 2009, 02:51:43 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 08, 2009, 01:03:31 PM
I found the Documents set quite enjoyable.  While the sound may not be first rate, it is clear and Walcha articulated the organ works of Bach well IMO.  I also have the Walcha's stereo set on Archive, which I have not played yet.  I also plan on getting the Weinberger's 22-CD set just to get some works that have been left out of the Walcha's sets.  At any rate, I still consider Walcha the best among the organists.  We are talking about someone who was blind most of his adult life when we examine his towering achievement on the organ ...

This is precisely what I think too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 08, 2009, 02:52:20 PM
Quote from: James on March 08, 2009, 02:38:08 PM
i wouldn't have said anything if i hadn't heard much of it.
But you did not answer how much.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 08, 2009, 04:12:56 PM
Quote from: James on March 08, 2009, 03:12:33 PM
check out his pupil the blind german organist Holm Vogel...his recordings of the Trio Sonatas are the best I've ever heard and I've heard lots. Perfection. I also love his recording of ClavierUbung iii which is also very great.

If anyone reads up the bio on Helmut Walcha, he has to be impressed with what this man has achieved.  The fact that Walcha was blind for most of his adult life, yet he is ranked right up there with the best organists of the 20th century.  How did he do it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Walcha
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 08, 2009, 04:13:49 PM
Quote from: James on March 08, 2009, 03:12:33 PM
check out his pupil the blind german organist Holm Vogel...his recordings of the Trio Sonatas are the best I've ever heard and I've heard lots. Perfection. I also love his recording of ClavierUbung iii which is also very great.

Even better than Marie-Claire Alain?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 08, 2009, 04:25:02 PM
Quote from: premont on March 07, 2009, 11:19:03 PM
We made the comparison with the WTC above. 4 or 5 CDs pr set.
And your 150++ sets of Goldberg variations equal at least about 35 sets of the WTC

Is there a point you're making here?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 08, 2009, 04:30:22 PM
Quote from: premont on March 08, 2009, 10:42:47 AM
Disagree. This is a milestone recording both as to interpretation as to recorded sound for its age. If we should reject this recording because of bad sound, we should also reject all recordings made at least before 1950 for the same reason. But if one owns Walchas stereo set, parts of which on the other hand are badly recorded regarding the years of the recordings, one may not need the mono set.

How does the sound on this set compare to the Albert Schweitzer/Bach/Pearl recordings?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 08, 2009, 04:49:12 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 08, 2009, 04:25:02 PM
Is there a point you're making here?

Yes, your preferences are not a matter of available space, but of preferences.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 08, 2009, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 08, 2009, 04:30:22 PM
How does the sound on this set compare to the Albert Schweitzer/Bach/Pearl recordings?

Have not heard the Schweitzer/Pearl releases, only the EMI and Document releases, and the Schweitzer sound on these are rather more dated. But I can not say that Schweitzer does much for me, and I do not acquire expensive recordings for historical reasons exclusively.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on March 08, 2009, 04:59:55 PM
Quote from: James on March 08, 2009, 03:00:20 PM
how much? enough to rid of it without regrets.

Your lack of regret is no signifier in the least for anyone else.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 08, 2009, 08:40:08 PM
Quote from: premont on March 08, 2009, 04:49:12 PM
Yes, your preferences are not a matter of available space, but of preferences.

Right - available space has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 08, 2009, 08:41:44 PM
Quote from: premont on March 08, 2009, 04:54:03 PM
Have not heard the Schweitzer/Pearl releases, only the EMI and Document releases, and the Schweitzer sound on these are rather more dated. But I can not say that Schweitzer does much for me, and I do not acquire expensive recordings for historical reasons exclusively.

I don't have any problem with Schweitzer's sound, so Walcha should be easy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 09, 2009, 01:10:35 AM
Quote from: James on March 08, 2009, 05:20:57 PM
they say the blind have a heightened sense of hearing. helps. he's not the only great blind musician though there have been others. for instance, check out Holm Vogel's recordings if you get the chance, you will not be disappointed, great performance (& sound). trust me.

I can agree with this. Vogels playing has got many of the Walcha qualities, first and foremost exquisite transparency of part playing, and in a more informed presentation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 09, 2009, 05:05:49 PM
Quote from: James on March 08, 2009, 05:23:21 PM
Yes.

Goggling on Holm Vogel but I really do not find many interesting entries about him on the first page??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 22, 2009, 01:07:34 PM
Bach is my favourite composer ....
.... and I only had around 'two handful' of organ discs in da house (Walcha, MC Alain, Power Biggs, Rogg, Rübsam, Preston, Leonhardt & Koopman), whilst Bach is such an important organ composer.
Oops: I almost forgot the 'complete' Fagius!

Still: I rarely listened to them.
Shame on me!

So, after (re)discovering the charm and beauty of the harpsichord during the last two years, I decided to take a closer hearing at that other beautiful keyboard instrument: the organ!

Right now I'm listening to Olivier Vernet, playing a.o. the Trio Sonata in G (BWV 530) and the variations on "O Gott, du frommer Gott" (BWV 767) on the organ of l'Église Sainte-Croix de Montélimar.
I think he is a good Bach interpreter, and I like his choice of registrations. But I do not have a lot of organ-listening experience.
What do other members think of Vernet?

(Post scriptum: also in da house, library CD-stuff of the Dutch organ players Piet Wiersma, Bram Beekman and Wim van Beek, and also of Chorzempa, and I had a great weekend, sitting outside da house in the sun with two large headphones on my big ears. :D)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 22, 2009, 01:22:45 PM
Finally got around to the Passacaglia of Marie-Claire Alain (cycle II) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000RZOR2K/nectarandambrUK-21). QUITE to my liking, at last...
I had gotten impatient after Andre Isoir (organist of my favorite "Art of the Fugue") (Calliope) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006G9H8O/nectarandambrUK-21), Martin Sander (Audite) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000K2NZ/nectarandambr-20), and Lionel Rogg (Harmonia Mundi) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000027OAA/nectarandambr-20) were not entirely convincing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 22, 2009, 01:35:12 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 22, 2009, 01:22:45 PM
Finally got around to the Passacaglia of Marie-Claire Alain (cycle II) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000RZOR2K/nectarandambrUK-21). QUITE to my liking, at last...
I had gotten impatient after Andre Isoir (Calliope) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006G9H8O/nectarandambrUK-21), Martin Sander (Audite) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000K2NZ/nectarandambr-20), and (Harmonia Mundi) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000027OAA/nectarandambr-20) were not entirely convincing.

Marie-Claire Alain is tried and true while I have never heard of the other two ...

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 22, 2009, 01:37:03 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 22, 2009, 01:07:34 PM

Right now I'm listening to Olivier Vernet, playing a.o. the Trio Sonata in G (BWV 530) and the variations on "O Gott, du frommer Gott" (BWV 767) on the organ of l'Église Sainte-Croix de Montélimar.
I think he is a good Bach interpreter, and I like his choice of registrations. But I do not have a lot of organ-listening experience.
What do other members think of Vernet?

In my opinion Vernet combines informed scholarship and passionate approach in an individual and most often convincing synthesis marked by energy and brilliance. I do not think I could do with his integral as the only one, but I rate him very highly.

Quote from: Marc on March 22, 2009, 01:07:34 PM
(Post scriptum: also in da house, library CD-stuff of the Dutch organ players Piet Wiersma, Bram Beekman and Wim van Beek, and also of Chorzempa, and I had a great weekend, sitting outside da house in the sun with two large headphones on my big ears. :D)

Bram Beekman´s integral is OOP - unfortunately, as his is probably the only integral I do not know at all. Chorzempa is one of the HIP pioneers but he has not recorded much.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 22, 2009, 01:46:51 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 22, 2009, 01:22:45 PM
Finally got around to the Passacaglia of Marie-Claire Alain (cycle II) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000RZOR2K/nectarandambrUK-21). QUITE to my liking, at last...
I had gotten impatient after Andre Isoir (organist of my favorite "Art of the Fugue") (Calliope) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006G9H8O/nectarandambrUK-21), Martin Sander (Audite) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000K2NZ/nectarandambr-20), and Lionel Rogg (Harmonia Mundi) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000027OAA/nectarandambr-20) were not entirely convincing.

I am still considering my Bach organ integral recommendations. Not an easy task with that many.

But Marie-Claire Alain is to me mandatory, and the second cycle preferable.

Martin Sander´s only CD from Nidaros is passionate and rhethorical, his style seem to be inspired by the first Rübsam integral (Philips 1977) the style pulled a tad further. I must admit that I find him very exciting.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 22, 2009, 01:51:18 PM
Quote from: premont on March 22, 2009, 01:46:51 PM

Martin Sander´s only CD from Nidaros is passionate and rhethorical, his style seem to be inspired by the first Rübsam integral (Philips 1977) the style pulled a tad further. I must admit that I find him very exciting.

Incidentally, the title of this new Audite Cd (recorded on the Wagner Organ in Trondheim) is "Pathos & Happiness/Delight" and I really like his Concerto in d BWV 596 and "Nun komm', der Heiden Heiland" (659-661). But in the Passacaglia, perhaps I'm not looking for passion or excitement but rigor that allows the music to develop its internal, necessary, compelling and compulsive forward drive.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 22, 2009, 02:00:24 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 22, 2009, 01:51:18 PM
Incidentally, the title of this new Audite Cd (recorded on the Wagner Organ in Trondheim) is "Pathos & Happiness/Delight" and I really like his Concerto in d BWV 596 and "Nun komm', der Heiden Heiland" (659-661). But in the Passacaglia, perhaps I'm not looking for passion or excitement but rigor that allows the music to develop its internal, necessary, compelling and compulsive forward drive.

Agreed, exactly the Passacaglia is perhaps not the most successful piece on this CD, and a complete integral played in this way might become a bit tiresome in the long run. But still I find him exciting and inventive.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 23, 2009, 10:27:38 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 22, 2009, 01:07:34 PM
Right now I'm listening to Olivier Vernet, playing a.o. the Trio Sonata in G (BWV 530) and the variations on "O Gott, du frommer Gott" (BWV 767) on the organ of l'Église Sainte-Croix de Montélimar.
I think he is a good Bach interpreter, and I like his choice of registrations. But I do not have a lot of organ-listening experience.
What do other members think of Vernet?

Quote from: premont on March 22, 2009, 01:37:03 PM
In my opinion Vernet combines informed scholarship and passionate approach in an individual and most often convincing synthesis marked by energy and brilliance. I do not think I could do with his integral as the only one, but I rate him very highly.

Thanks for sharing my first impressions! :)
I have a copy of this recital on MiniDisc, and I'm considering buying his integral. The complete set is available around € 60,-- here (and there?).

Quote from: premont on March 22, 2009, 01:37:03 PM
Bram Beekman´s integral is OOP - unfortunately, as his is probably the only integral I do not know at all. Chorzempa is one of the HIP pioneers but he has not recorded much.

I know about Beekman being OOP. A record salesman told me a couple of months ago that the publisher Lindenberg went bankrupt. Which made me realize that I was too late to 'easily' collect his integral. :(
Luckilly there is a good library system here in the Netherlands. Maybe I'll manage to get at least a copy of most of the volumes. But it will be a difficult task nevertheless, because I think that a lot of libraries had to clean up their music storage in the last decade or so. Of course eBay-kind of sites might help a bit while searching.

The last two or three weeks I have listened to a lot of Bach's organ music, with all the separate CD's that I found in my house, and Beekman's 2cd-sampler (also OOP) gives me the impression that his integral should be very good. He's playing on historical Dutch baroque organs. I would describe his playing as a fine combination of joy, spirituality and nobility. And the organs sound really wonderful. It's a real pity that this set is OOP. Hopefully another company is willing to buy the license.

About Chorzempa: this hybrid disc is a reissue of a 1970 quadrophonic Bach/Liszt recording, released by PentaTone. Especially the Bach works profit of a brilliant recording sound (organ of the Grote Kerk in Breda, Netherlands). I almost drowned in it! :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 23, 2009, 05:35:43 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 23, 2009, 10:27:38 AM

About Chorzempa: this hybrid disc is a reissue of a 1970 quadrophonic Bach/Liszt recording, released by PentaTone. Especially the Bach works profit of a brilliant recording sound (organ of the Grote Kerk in Breda, Netherlands). I almost drowned in it! :D

I have always enjoyed the playing style of Chorzempa.  From LP's to CD's, I have quite a few of his recordings ...    ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 24, 2009, 01:42:27 AM
I am on the other hand not that happy with all Chorzempa´s Bach organ recordings (he changed rather much his style of interpretation during the 1980es-90es) and the one from Breda the least. Almost sticky in conception I think. But I have not listened to it via a headset though.

His most important Bach recordings IMO are the WTC part I & II (Philips) played on a host of different instruments (like the Robert Levin set), a brilliant and well articulated set, and his more than twenty years old recording of the Triosonatas (Philips) on the restored baroque organ in Meppel (as far as I remember), which some may find a bit sticky too, as well as his recording of the Sei Gergrüsset variations and the Schübler Chorales on the Johan Andreas Silbermann in Arlesheim (Philips), which are more middle-of -the-road HIP. These, I think, are well worth seeking out, but they are probably difficult to find to day.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 24, 2009, 12:13:56 PM
Quote from: premont on March 24, 2009, 01:42:27 AM
[About Chorzempa's Bach playing]
[....] Almost sticky in conception I think. [....]
[....] which some may find a bit sticky too [....]

Sticky: does this (f.i.) mean: lack of phrasing and articulation?
I have to listen to it again. I sometimes do have these kinda sticky 'problems' with Lionel Rogg, to be honest. Although I very much like his interpretation of the Mega Impressive Passacaglia & Fugue in C-minor, BWV 582. I've read somewhere that it's more 'HIP' to play it at full plenum from the beginning, but I still prefer the 'Bolero' kind of building. This is also done (if I remember it well) by f.i. Power Biggs and Chorzempa. At the end of the fuga thematum, Chorzempa plays some kind of a cadenza, that I've never heard before. It disturbs the structure a bit, but I was surprised to hear it, mainly in a positive way. At least it's something different. And again: the sound of this PentaTone re-recording is very much to my likings!

But it's not easy to give a thorough opinion about all this, since I'm not a real organ connaisseur. I don't know anything about all the 'technical' aspects, like stops, registrations, Hauptwerk, Rugwerk, or whatever. And there's another problem, too: since 2000/2001 (the release of the Bach boxes by Brilliant, a.o. the organ works by Fagius) I have not listened that much to organ music. Right now, after checking my collection, I switch from organ CD to organ CD like a 'raging bull', and I tend to like almost everything.

Well, to be honest, I'm not exactly raging, because I turned ill some days ago, and I feel rather sick. :(

But, to strengthen myself, I still play some (not only Bach) organ recordings. In a previous posting I forgot to mention this set, also reissued by Brilliant Classics:

(http://img164.imagevenue.com/loc1059/th_24707_51XNBSRVMAL._SS500A__122_1059lo.jpg) (http://img164.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=24707_51XNBSRVMAL._SS500A__122_1059lo.jpg)

Here's the playing list:
http://www.amazon.com/Famous-Dutch-Organs/product-reviews/B000FS2W7G/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&coliid=&showViewpoints=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

I think it's worth every penny, although 3 CD's are also in the before mentioned Ton Koopman 6CD-box, licensed from AVC Records, Switzerland.
Van Doeselaar, f.i., is a good Bach player, too, I think. The recording however of his recital sounds a bit too 'distant'.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 24, 2009, 01:05:46 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 24, 2009, 12:13:56 PM
Sticky: does this (f.i.) mean: lack of phrasing and articulation?

No, rather some lack of momentum. Actually he overdoes the articulation in his earlier HIP recordings, almost to the point of a parody.

Quote from: Marc on March 24, 2009, 12:13:56 PMAt the end of the fuga thematum, Chorzempa plays some kind of a cadenza, that I've never heard before. It disturbs the structure a bit, but I was surprised to hear it, mainly in a positive way. At least it's something different.

This general pause near the end of the fugue is found in other similar works and is by some modern organists supposed to be the place, where you should couple the RW-plenum to the HW-plenum. The tracktion mechanism of former days did not allow this during the playing. Others (e.g. Chorzempa, E Power Biggs and A Newman) use the occation to play short cadenzas. I think a cadenza must be very, very stylish to wear well with repeated listening.

Quote from: Marc on March 24, 2009, 12:13:56 PM
Well, to be honest, I'm not exactly raging, because I turned ill some days ago, and I feel rather sick. :(.

Oh, you should stay in bed and experience the soothing effect of good music, not the least organ music. I wish you a fast recovery.

Quote from: Marc on March 24, 2009, 12:13:56 PM
..this set, also reissued by Brilliant Classics:

(http://img164.imagevenue.com/loc1059/th_24707_51XNBSRVMAL._SS500A__122_1059lo.jpg) (http://img164.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=24707_51XNBSRVMAL._SS500A__122_1059lo.jpg)

I think it's worth every penny, although 3 CD's are also in the before mentioned Ton Koopman 6CD-box, licensed from AVC Records, Switzerland.
Van Doeselaar, f.i., is a good Bach player, too, I think. The recording however of his recital sounds a bit too 'distant'.

Yes, this is a very good set I think, and van Doeselaar perhaps the most impressive, almost titanic in effect. But the newly restored F.C.Schnitger organ in Alkmaar has got a substantial part in his success. I do not care much for the Reger pieces, but there is enough stuff in that box even without.

PS: see your PM (private mail)

Regards,
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 24, 2009, 02:05:32 PM
Quote from: premont on March 24, 2009, 01:05:46 PM
No, rather some lack of momentum. Actually he overdoes the articulation in his earlier HIP recordings, almost to the point of a parody.

This general pause near the end of the fugue is found in other similar works and is by some modern organists supposed to be the place, where you should couple the RW-plenum to the HW-plenum. The tracktion mechanism of former days did not allow this during the playing. Others (e.g. Chorzempa, E Power Biggs and A Newman) use the occation to play short cadenzas. I think a cadenza must be very, very stylish to wear well with repeated listening.

Oh, you should stay in bed and experience the soothing effect of good music, not the least organ music. I wish you a fast recovery.

Yes, this is a very good set I think, and van Doeselaar perhaps the most impressive, almost titanic in effect. But the newly restored F.C.Schnitger organ in Alkmaar has got a substantial part in his success. I do not care much for the Reger pieces, but there is enough stuff in that box even without.

PS: see your PM (private mail)

Regards,

Premont, thanks for the reaction & explanations. I'm considering to hire some books about organs & organ playing to learn more about the 'technical' facts.
Yes, Alkmaar is sounding even better than in the Walcha-years after the second Flentrop (1987) restoration. I think I'll go to sleep in a warm bed, mit Begleitung von Bach & Van Doeselaar. After I mentioned his name in my previous message, I suddenly realized something, did another collection-check and yes .... found another organ one: the Clavierübung III with Van The Man. I'll get better soon now!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 30, 2009, 05:52:08 PM
Anyone familiar with Margaret Phillips' performance of JS Bach organ works?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 30, 2009, 09:45:48 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 30, 2009, 05:52:08 PM
Anyone familiar with Margaret Phillips' performance of JS Bach organ works?

I have her vols. 3 and 4.  Excellent performances but nothing really distinctive.  The sound on vol. 4 is perfect.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 31, 2009, 05:02:09 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on March 30, 2009, 09:45:48 PM
I have her vols. 3 and 4.  Excellent performances but nothing really distinctive.  The sound on vol. 4 is perfect.

She recorded a total of 4 volumes on the Regent label and I am considering getting all of them before I get the Weinberger 22-CD set next month ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 02, 2009, 07:35:38 PM
These are my favorite LP's on Bach Organ Works ...

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 02, 2009, 07:36:40 PM
Here is another set on EMI by Lionel Rogg

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 03, 2009, 05:54:12 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on March 31, 2009, 05:02:09 PM
She recorded a total of 4 volumes on the Regent label and I am considering getting all of them before I get the Weinberger 22-CD set next month ...

Just keep in mind that Phillips never reaches the heights achieved by Weinberger (nor the lows).  She's about as mainstream as it gets.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 03, 2009, 05:28:24 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 03, 2009, 05:54:12 AM
Just keep in mind that Phillips never reaches the heights achieved by Weinberger (nor the lows).  She's about as mainstream as it gets.

Understood.  I always have an eye for new recordings of works by JS Bach - from passion to violin concertos to organ works ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 07, 2009, 09:56:04 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 02, 2009, 07:35:38 PM
These are my favorite LP's on Bach Organ Works ...
[pictures of Lilly LP-covers Bach/Chorzempa]

Hmm, I recently missed a used CD version of the Schübler-recording by a narrow 50 eurocents.
These two issues are, AFAIK, OOP already for many years. :(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 14, 2009, 12:25:00 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 23, 2009, 10:27:38 AM
[....]
The last two or three weeks I have listened to a lot of Bach's organ music, with all the separate CD's that I found in my house, and Beekman's 2cd-sampler (also OOP) gives me the impression that his integral should be very good. He's playing on historical Dutch baroque organs. I would describe his playing as a fine combination of joy, spirituality and nobility. And the organs sound really wonderful. It's a real pity that this set is OOP. Hopefully another company is willing to buy the license.

About Chorzempa: this hybrid disc is a reissue of a 1970 quadrophonic Bach/Liszt recording, released by PentaTone. Especially the Bach works profit of a brilliant recording sound (organ of the Grote Kerk in Breda, Netherlands). I almost drowned in it! :D

Three weeks later: I wouldn't call Beekman virtuosic; and his joy is more of a tranquil, serene and severe joy. In some spectacular pieces, like BWV 565, his playing isn't that appealing though, IMHO. After hearing a lot of organ players in this piece (again), Chorzempa is still the best to my likings. Too bad that a lot of his Bach-discography is OOP.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 14, 2009, 12:45:29 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 14, 2009, 12:25:00 PM
Three weeks later: I wouldn't call Beekman virtuosic; and his joy is more of a tranquil, serene and severe joy. In some spectacular pieces, like BWV 565, his playing isn't that appealing though, IMHO. After hearing a lot of organ players in this piece (again), Chorzempa is still the best to my likings. Too bad that a lot of his Bach-discography is OOP.

I wonder whom he (Beekman) may be comparable to.

Foccroulle? Lagacé? Fagius? Johannesen?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 14, 2009, 02:22:25 PM
Quote from: premont on April 14, 2009, 12:45:29 PM
I wonder whom he (Beekman) may be comparable to.

Ha!
That's what I intended! ;D

Quote from: premont
Foccroulle? Lagacé? Fagius? Johannesen?

Pfui dich, what a question for a beginner in this discipline (organ listening)!  ;)

Of your list of names I only know Fagius, and I wouldn't compare Beekman to him.
With Beekman, it's especially the calm determination, or determined calmness, that appeals to me.

I would say: maybe one could place him in the Dutch no-nonsense and slightly calvinistic music-making of f.i. Gustav Leonhardt, Bernard Haitink, Hans Vonk?

But definitely not comparable with Ton Koopman, who is far more fast and furious. I must tell you though, that so far it's not easy to tell which musician I do or don't really like when Bach's organ is concerned. In fact, the sound and type of the instrument, combined with the 'space' of the recording is almost as important to me, if not more. Maybe at a later stage I'll be able to name my favourite performers. But, for instance, after listening to Beekman, I don't mind to turn to Koopman of Chorzempa, and vice versa. I guess I'm lucky right now: still enjoying (almost) everyone. I also enjoy to listen to Fagius (BIS/Brilliant Classics), Power Biggs (on the Harvard Flentrop) or the Duruflé family, although the 'Grande Orgue' the latters use (Soissons) is not especially to my likings.

I 'discovered' in the last 2/3 months that I have a few Bach organ-CDs that I'm not particularily fond of. For instance the recording with a.o. the Schübler-Chorale, part of the Naxos cycle, played by Wolfgang Rübsam. I experience his playing as a continuing stop-and-go-penalty, if I'm allowed to use this motorsports term. Rather tiresome, IMHO. From what I've read about him, I believe his Philips recordings were much better.
I also have 2 recordings with Michael Murray, and in his case I'm not really endeared by the instruments, either. Especially the LA First Congregational Church Organ wouldn't be my first choice in Bach. Which means that it's tough to keep on listening and enjoy myself. I know that Murray has played some baroque organs in the Netherlands (f.i. Zwolle), but I don't know these discs (yet?).

After typing all this, I remembered some statements in reviews about Jacques van Oortmerssen, that kinda made me think of Beekman. I searched at the internet for him and found this clip (BWV 530):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnv8gjbx-0Q

Like Beekman, he's not fast, and rather severe. But Van Oortmerssen is more varying in tempi, a bit like Rübsam, but just a little bit. I would describe Beekman's playing as being more straightforward.
Mind you, I say this only after increasingly listening to Beekman's sampler. I still have to find and do the 'whole bunch'. In fact, I still have to 'learn' almost the entire Bach Organ Catalogue. Combined with all the Walcha's, Alains, Vernets, etc., I think I have plenty to do for the next ten year! ;D

There is a SACD of Beekman available, by the way, with a selection of Toccata's and other organ works by German composers. The organ is a very special one (Oostkerk, Middelburg): if I'm not mistaken, it's some strange mix between Flemish, Dutch and German organ building of the 18th century.

http://www.amazon.com/Toccata-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B00008XS1Y

To conclude: some fragments of Beekman's organ playing, combined with other versions of the renaissance song "Est-ce mars". The organ fragments are taken from the disc Alle Registers Open. Not that difficult to translate, I think :). But I doubt if that one is still available, too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmgmSH8zUEY
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 14, 2009, 04:41:58 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 14, 2009, 02:22:25 PM
Ha!
I also have 2 recordings with Michael Murray, and in his case I'm not really endeared by the instruments, either. Especially the LA First Congregational Church Organ wouldn't be my first choice in Bach. Which means that it's tough to keep on listening and enjoy myself. I know that Murray has played some baroque organs in the Netherlands (f.i. Zwolle), but I don't know these discs (yet?).


I first heard Michael Murray on WNCN or WQXR when I lived in NYC over twenty years ago.  I just never liked his performance.  As such, he joins the list of Sinopoli, Stern and Levine, etc, whose recordings are not included in my collection.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on April 15, 2009, 11:26:45 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 14, 2009, 02:22:25 PM

I would say: maybe one could place him in the Dutch no-nonsense and slightly calvinistic music-making of f.i. Gustav Leonhardt, Bernard Haitink, Hans Vonk?


"Dutch no-nonsense"? Jacques van Oortmerssen comes to mind.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 16, 2009, 07:31:44 AM
Quote from: traverso on April 15, 2009, 11:26:45 PM
"Dutch no-nonsense"? Jacques van Oortmerssen comes to mind.

True. I mentioned him a little later, too: "[....] I remembered some statements in reviews about Jacques van Oortmerssen, that kinda made me think of Beekman".
And added a YouTube-link with him playing Bach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnv8gjbx-0Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on April 16, 2009, 08:02:09 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 16, 2009, 07:31:44 AM
True. I mentioned him a little later, too: "[....] I remembered some statements in reviews about Jacques van Oortmerssen, that kinda made me think of Beekman".
And added a YouTube-link with him playing Bach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnv8gjbx-0Q

I thought I was missing something...well I have. :P  Strange to say, but nowadays I often prefer Bach organ playing that is a bit over-the-top: Lorenzo Ghielmi, Michel Chapuis, Olivier Vernet...for example.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 16, 2009, 10:19:11 AM
Quote from: traverso on April 16, 2009, 08:02:09 AM
I thought I was missing something...well I have. :P  Strange to say, but nowadays I often prefer Bach organ playing that is a bit over-the-top: Lorenzo Ghielmi, Michel Chapuis, Olivier Vernet...for example.

And why not? AFAIK, much of Bach's organ oeuvre was composed while he was still rather young. I mean, if the ever-so-popular BWV 565 really is genuine Sebastian .... need I say more? ;)
For instance, I really like Chorzempa in this piece (re-issued on hybrid SACD by PentaTone Classics), and one could consider his interpretation a bit 'wild', too. Another youthful and firm approach (though sounding less virtuosic) of this piece is performed by Stefan Johannes Bleicher on the Holzhey-organ of Weißenau, Germany (built 1784-1787). It's on a Arte Nova bargain that I bought recently.

Until so far, like I've mentioned before, I consider myself rather lucky (and busy :P).
Because, when Bach's organ is concerned, I seem to like all various kinds of interpretations. You've mentioned Vernet, and some time ago I also said I liked his recital (I have a copy of it on MiniDisc) on the organ of l'Église Sainte-Croix de Montélimar, which I think is one of his first recordings (late eighties?). Indeed, there's a lot of passion and energy in his playing, as Premont was saying. Since a couple of months, I always have this recording available when I'm travelling towards work.

About the 'Dutch' no-nonsense and calvinistic style of playing: I mentioned the name of Leonhardt, but no doubt he can be a very energetic interpreter, too. In fact, I tend to be rather cautious when strict classifications are concerned. But in some cases it can be very handy to unite musicians into so-called divisions. Just to give other members/readers an idea. On the other hand: these classifications can of course be very subjective .... and therefore even dead-wrong, in the ears of others. ;)

Anyway: enjoy your time listening to a wild and tempestuous Bach! :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 16, 2009, 11:15:23 AM
Quote from: premont on April 14, 2009, 12:45:29 PM
I wonder whom he (Beekman) may be comparable to.

Foccroulle? Lagacé? Fagius? Johannesen?

Maybe something of an answer: PM sent. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 17, 2009, 12:10:45 PM
I've finished struggling with getting Beekman 'complete'. Thanks to the Dutch libraries I have managed to make a copy of the missing volumes 2 & 5!
But, because I'm just a hungry greedy man :-[, instead of finally taking some time for a quiet organ listening evening and night, I'm already struggling with completing another 'Dutch' set, too!
It's about recordings of the organist Piet Wiersma, who started a Bach edition in the late nineties. But he died before completing, at the age of 57, right after he finished his recording at the Lohman-organ of the Hervormde Kerk in Eenrum, august 2003.
Eenrum is a village in the north of the Netherlands, in the province (county) of Groningen. Groningen is (relatively speaking) filled with historic organs, which means that a lot of well-known organists like to play there. Wiersma himself was born in this region, and stayed there his entire life. Although he was not a HIP or baroque musician, he was very interested in Bach, and managed to find some sponsors for his cycle Bach in Groningen.
He completed 7 volumes of 2CD-sets, and I'm on the right way! Volumes 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7 are already in da house! Volume 1 & 3 are OOP, according to the selling & sponsoring website (www.groningenorgelland.nl), but thanks (again) to the library, I could make a copy of Volume 3.

But Volume 1 is (almost?) impossible to find. Even the libraries don't seem to have it.
Is there a Dutch organ lover on the board who can help?

Que? .... he asked hesitatingly. :-[ :-[

Well, anyway, back to some listening experiences again. Wiersma can be very heavy sometimes, and the one organ sounds better than the other, IMHO. But, f.i., he executes a peace-giving and almost transcendental performance of one of my favourites, the Fantasia und Fuge in c-moll, BWV 537, on the organ of Farmsum. This is a very fine sounding instrument, also made by N.A. Lohman [1829].
Here's a pic:
(http://img244.imagevenue.com/loc130/th_02163_DSC03965A_122_130lo.jpg) (http://img244.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=02163_DSC03965A_122_130lo.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 17, 2009, 01:39:10 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 14, 2009, 02:22:25 PM
Of your list of names I only know Fagius, and I wouldn't compare Beekman to him.
With Beekman, it's especially the calm determination, or determined calmness, that appeals to me.

I hear much determination in Fagius´ playing, but it is maybe more strict tham calm.

Quote from: Marc on April 14, 2009, 02:22:25 PM
I would say: maybe one could place him in the Dutch no-nonsense and slightly calvinistic music-making of f.i. Gustav Leonhardt, Bernard Haitink, Hans Vonk?

Do not know Vonk. Haitink makes me think of some search for objectivism, indeed the opposite of Leonhardts subjectivism.

Quote from: Marc on April 14, 2009, 02:22:25 PM
..the Duruflé family, although the 'Grande Orgue' the latters use (Soissons) is not especially to my likings.

Oh yes, this modern organ, designed to be suited for all music, and actually not suited for much, and at least not for early or baroque music. In my ears Maurice Duruflé and his wife are contrary poles as to interpretation. He is reflective and introspective, virtuosity being of secundary importance. She is first and foremost a brilliant performer, a bit superficial, the faster the better. A pity, that she was given the option to perform many of the greatest works (538, 548 e.g.)

Quote from: Marc on April 14, 2009, 02:22:25 PM
I 'discovered' in the last 2/3 months that I have a few Bach organ-CDs that I'm not particularily fond of. For instance the recording with a.o. the Schübler-Chorale, part of the Naxos cycle, played by Wolfgang Rübsam. I experience his playing as a continuing stop-and-go-penalty, if I'm allowed to use this motorsports term. Rather tiresome, IMHO. From what I've read about him, I believe his Philips recordings were much better.

Rübsams Philips recording and Naxos recording are as different as day and night. Indeed I like both, even if agree, that the Philips recording is the most exciting. It is fast, brilliant, sometimes wild in expression, but always well controlled. The organ he uses though is rather uninteresting and middle of the road (a neobaroque Metzler organ). The Naxos recording is partly played upon historical organs, and most of it is extremely deliberate, static, sometimes almost approaching stand-still, and some of his registrations are in my ears a bit romantic, but the more I listen to it, the more I manage to get beneath the granite-like surface and become receptive to his individual artistic message, which I would describe as visions about eternity.

Quote from: Marc on April 14, 2009, 02:22:25 PM
I also have 2 recordings with Michael Murray, and in his case I'm not really endeared by the instruments, either. Especially the LA First Congregational Church Organ wouldn't be my first choice in Bach. Which means that it's tough to keep on listening and enjoy myself. I know that Murray has played some baroque organs in the Netherlands (f.i. Zwolle), but I don't know these discs (yet?).

Murray bores me, whatever the instrument.

Quote from: Marc on April 14, 2009, 02:22:25 PM
Like Beekman, he's not fast, and rather severe. But Van Oortmerssen is more varying in tempi, a bit like Rübsam, but just a little bit. I would describe Beekman's playing as being more straightforward.

In my ears van Oortmerssen is strict, correct, and not much more. And do not possess any bit of Rübsams originality.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 17, 2009, 01:58:16 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 17, 2009, 12:10:45 PM
It's about recordings of the organist Piet Wiersma, who started a Bach edition in the late nineties. But he died before completing, at the age of 57, right after he finished his recording at the Lohman-organ of the Hervormde Kerk in Eenrum, august 2003.

More to learn, as I never have heard of Piet Wiersma. A sad story, though, reminding of Ewald Kooiman, who recently died in the midst of his third(!) Bach integral.

Never-the-less I am repeatedly impressed by the great number of competent and engaged Dutch organists, who incessantly make recordings on an artistic level which makes most of them must-have´s for people like me. Releases like the in every respect outstanding Dutch organ box (20CD) which Harry recommended some time ago, and which he helped me to get hold of, would never arise in any other country.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 17, 2009, 02:01:00 PM
Quote from: traverso on April 16, 2009, 08:02:09 AM
..nowadays I often prefer Bach organ playing that is a bit over-the-top: Lorenzo Ghielmi, Michel Chapuis, Olivier Vernet...for example.

Strange that you mention these three so very different artist in the same breath.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 17, 2009, 03:44:05 PM
Quote from: premont on April 17, 2009, 01:39:10 PM

Murray bores me, whatever the instrument.

Yes, he can be a total bore, especially in the bigger works such as the Preludes & Fugues/Toccatas etc.  However, he does improve a lot in Bach's chorales.  But overall, he's too heavy and slow.  I bought a couple of his Telarc discs, and that was the end of him for me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 17, 2009, 06:22:57 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 17, 2009, 03:44:05 PM
Yes, he can be a total bore, especially in the bigger works such as the Preludes & Fugues/Toccatas etc.  However, he does improve a lot in Bach's chorales.  But overall, he's too heavy and slow.  I bought a couple of his Telarc discs, and that was the end of him for me.

Same here.  I never even own a single CD by Michael Murray after I heard one of his CD's off the local classical FM station.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on April 17, 2009, 10:21:23 PM
Quote from: premont on April 17, 2009, 02:01:00 PM
Strange that you mention these three so very different artist in the same breath.

To me their performances are all quite more "animated" in comparison to the, mmm, no-nonsense group, hence the bracketing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 17, 2009, 10:48:23 PM
Quote from: premont on April 17, 2009, 01:58:16 PM
More to learn, as I never have heard of Piet Wiersma. A sad story, though, reminding of Ewald Kooiman, who recently died in the midst of his third(!) Bach integral.

I said Wiersma stayed in Groningen his entire life, but I'm not sure if that is true.
From 1983 on, he was organist of the Grote of St. Nicolaaskerk in Monnickendam, province Noord-Holland.
But he kept on teaching in the Groningen environment. His nickname was de lesboer, which is Dutch for 'the lesson farmer'. From what I've read about him, he must have been a very inspiring teacher. I think 'lesboer' is a typical Groningen expression, because Wiersma's home county is still very agrarian.

Listening to Wiersma's Bach in Groningen is something of experiencing a true live recital. Wiersma apparently did not care for the odd mistake here and there. From time to time he touches two keys at the same time, giving the piece an unexpected dissonant side effect. Sometimes he can be rather rough and extravert, but, f.i. in BWV 537, there is also enough room for more introspective playing.

About Kooiman: actually, a library CD is on the way. But it's not a Bach recital, but a disc with mainly compositions of Johann Peter Kellner. He is the suspected author of BWV 565, as some scholars suggest.

So, I'm still busy travelling on my organ quest. Maybe I'll turn into some kind of a Lancelot .... and who knows what fair maid is waiting for me! ;D

Let's dream on: entering the Oude Kerk in Delft, and listening to Scarlett Johansson (dressed as Griet from the movie Girl with a pearl earring) playing Bach on the organ. 8)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on April 17, 2009, 11:21:05 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 17, 2009, 12:10:45 PM
t's about recordings of the organist Piet Wiersma, who started a Bach edition in the late nineties. But he died before completing, at the age of 57, right after he finished his recording at the Lohman-organ of the Hervormde Kerk in Eenrum, august 2003.

He completed 7 volumes of 2CD-sets, and I'm on the right way! Volumes 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7 are already in da house! Volume 1 & 3 are OOP, according to the selling & sponsoring website (www.groningenorgelland.nl), but thanks (again) to the library, I could make a copy of Volume 3.

But Volume 1 is (almost?) impossible to find. Even the libraries don't seem to have it.
Is there a Dutch organ lover on the board who can help?

Que? .... he asked hesitatingly. :-[ :-[


Nope, I'm sorry that I have to dissapoint you.  :-\
Bach's organ works are relatively new to me - I'm still scratching the surface of the more generally availble recordings. :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on April 17, 2009, 11:28:13 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 17, 2009, 10:48:23 PM

Let's dream on: entering the Oude Kerk in Delft, and listening to Scarlett Johansson (dressed as Griet from the movie Girl with a pearl earring) playing Bach on the organ. 8)



That sounds interesting considering none of the organists you have since mentioned in this thread is female.  Me, I want Colin Firth in the organ loft ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 17, 2009, 11:56:34 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 17, 2009, 10:48:23 PM
Let's dream on: entering the Oude Kerk in Delft, and listening to Scarlett Johansson (dressed as Griet from the movie Girl with a pearl earring) playing Bach on the organ. 8)

Quote from: traverso on April 17, 2009, 11:28:13 PM
That sounds interesting considering none of the organists you have since mentioned in this thread is female. 

That's why I call it a dream. 0:)

Quote from: traverso
Me, I want Colin Firth in the organ loft ;)

Not bad, really.
He's so endearing in Love actually!
And who's assisting him with registrating?
Hugh Grant?

Errrr, enough romantic blabbering. This is supposed to be a baroque thread.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 18, 2009, 12:03:10 AM
Quote from: Que on April 17, 2009, 11:21:05 PM
Nope, I'm sorry that I have to dissapoint you.  :-\
Bach's organ works are relatively new to me - I'm still scratching the surface of the more generally availble recordings. :)

Q, thanks for reacting anyway.
I discovered Wiersma by coincedence. I walked into the office of the Stichting Oude Groninger Kerken some time ago, hoping that they still had some copies of Lindenberg CD's that were recorded in .... well, oude Groninger kerken. ;)
They didn't have any Lindenberg stuff, but they did have 3 volumes of Wiersma's Bach in Groningen. Probably I was in a mood of throwing some money away, and that's why I bought all three of them. Mind you, it turned out that I only had to pay € 7,50 per 2CD-set. I still consider it good value for money!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 19, 2009, 02:59:56 AM
Quote from: premont on April 17, 2009, 01:39:10 PM
Rübsams Philips recording and Naxos recording are as different as day and night. Indeed I like both, even if agree, that the Philips recording is the most exciting. It is fast, brilliant, sometimes wild in expression, but always well controlled. The organ he uses though is rather uninteresting and middle of the road (a neobaroque Metzler organ). The Naxos recording is partly played upon historical organs, and most of it is extremely deliberate, static, sometimes almost approaching stand-still, and some of his registrations are in my ears a bit romantic, but the more I listen to it, the more I manage to get beneath the granite-like surface and become receptive to his individual artistic message, which I would describe as visions about eternity.

Well, I'm not unsympathetic towards giving Rübsam another chance. 0:)

That's why I bought some Naxos discs that were available in local shops. I was happy to buy a disc with the doubtful Trio BWV 584, a piece that is only rarely recorded, AFAIK.

I began listening to a sampler with the odd title The Great Organ Works (Naxos 8.553859). The article 'the' isn't very well chosen, I'd say.

My first experiences with this CD leave me with rather mixed emotions.

The Kellner ;) Toccata & Fuge in d-moll BWV 565 is part of this disc, almost needless to say. I do not mind at all about the ornamentations (on the contrary), and the Toccata, though a bit on the slow side, sounds very good to me. But during the Fugue I was thinking: did anyone destroy this Flentrop organ with an overdose of glue? The rather slow tempo doesn't bother me, but the 'sticky' way of playing is not my cup of tea. Also the lenghtening of some notes and chords are not to my likings. It takes out the driving force of this (probably) young man's piece.

The flow of the 'Little' Fuge in g-moll (BWV 578) is much better realized, despite some 'hesitations'.

I also have less personal difficulties with Rübsam's playing in f.i. the great Praeludium & Fuge in Es-Dur BWV 552 (slow, but monumental) and the choral Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ, BWV 639. The first note of the choral sounds a bit strange though (overtone?).   

The 'stop and go' way of Rübsam's playing is also part of his interpretation of the beautiful Toccata, Adagio & Fuge in C-Dur BWV 564, but in a more controlled manner. Maybe this composition is better 'Rübsam-proof' ;). Anyway, I enjoyed listening to it.
That's something I've experienced these last months, btw: in Bach's organ music it seems I'm more tolerant towards eccentricities and mannerism compared to his vocal works.

On the other hand: the ever impressive Passacaglia & Fuge in c-moll BWV 582 must be (one of) the slowest existing on disc, and IMO the tension is disappearing the further the piece is developing. Maybe I'll need another dozen listening sessions to appreciate it, but in my favourite organ piece I prefer f.i. Power Biggs, Rogg, Koopman and Beekman (also not that fast, but majestic in an inexorable way) by far.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 19, 2009, 09:08:28 AM
Well, Marc, I think I implicit referred to Rübsams Naxos cycle as an acquired taste, - which BTW eventually pays - or (to be precise) payed in my case. His tempi are generally slow, but they need to be slow, to manage to contain all the expression he puts into the music. Do not acquire his Naxos AoF at once, this is perhaps the most difficult to "digest".
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 19, 2009, 09:25:12 AM
Quote from: premont on April 19, 2009, 09:08:28 AM
Well, Marc, I think I implicit referred to Rübsams Naxos cycle as an acquired taste, - which BTW eventually pays - or (to be precise) payed in my case. His tempi are generally slow, but they need to be slow, to manage to contain all the expression he puts into the music. Do not acquire his Naxos AoF at once, this is perhaps the most difficult to "digest".

I very much like Rubsam's Bach (organ and piano).  He's a distinctive and thought-provoking artist.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 19, 2009, 09:58:40 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 19, 2009, 09:25:12 AM
I very much like Rubsam's Bach (organ and piano).  He's a distinctive and thought-provoking artist.

Can't really say anything on the piano part; for the last couple of years I prefer by far the harpsichord in baroque music.

Distinctive and thought-provoking: yes, that's very much true. But I doubt if Rübsam will ever be one of my distinctive ;) favourites in Bach. Koopman f.i. is also distinctive and thought-provoking, but in a different (read: fast and [sometimes overly] virtuosic) way, and I certainly prefer him.
In the right mood, I can stand and even try to get a notion of Rübsam's ideas, but there's still too much mannerism to my likings. But it's a good thing there are so many different approaches to this music. Variety keeps the listener hungry, wouldn't you agree? Unfortunately this also means it costs me a lot of money. For the rest of this month I'm kinda bankrupt. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 19, 2009, 10:08:56 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 19, 2009, 09:58:40 AM
Distinctive and thought-provoking: yes, that's very much true. But I doubt if Rübsam will ever be one of my distinctive ;) favourites in Bach. Koopman f.i. is also distinctive and thought-provoking, but in a different (read: fast and [sometimes overly] virtuosic) way, and I certainly prefer him.
In the right mood, I can stand and even try to get a notion of Rübsam's ideas, but there's still too much mannerism to my likings. But it's a good thing there are so many different approaches to this music. Variety keeps the listener hungry, wouldn't you agree? Unfortunately this also means it costs me a lot of money. For the rest of this month I'm kinda bankrupt. ;D

I'll take Rubsam over Koopman every time.  But as you say, variety is the key here.  As for feeling bankrupt, I know that feeling and it sucks.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 19, 2009, 10:15:07 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 19, 2009, 10:08:56 AM
I'll take Rubsam over Koopman every time. But as you say, variety is the key here.  As for feeling bankrupt, I know that feeling and it sucks.

Well, I'm lucky with my library card. :)
I don't want to make you angry with this, but sometimes I refer to W.R.'s Bach playing with Rübsam ist mühsam.
But if I really disliked his playing that much, I would not have bought 4 Naxos discs of him. So, in the end: he's not bad, he's just different. Bless him! 0:)

Yes, we're all individuals!
Yes, we're all different!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 19, 2009, 10:24:44 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 19, 2009, 10:15:07 AM
I don't want to make you angry with this, but sometimes I refer to W.R.'s Bach playing with Rübsam ist mühsam.

I can see how you might consider Rubsam's Bach laborious, but I sure don't feel that way about his interpretations.  Anyways, we're cool.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 19, 2009, 10:51:18 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 19, 2009, 09:58:40 AM
Distinctive and thought-provoking: yes, that's very much true. But I doubt if Rübsam will ever be one of my distinctive ;) favourites in Bach. Koopman f.i. is also distinctive and thought-provoking, but in a different (read: fast and [sometimes overly] virtuosic) way, and I certainly prefer him.
In the right mood, I can stand and even try to get a notion of Rübsam's ideas, but there's still too much mannerism to my likings. But it's a good thing there are so many different approaches to this music.

Even I would take Rübsam over Koopman every time. Not the least because of Koopman´s untidy mannerisms, which I often find irritating. Just listen to the way he (in the DG recording) adorns the Fugue theme of BWV 538 (the Dorian T+F).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 19, 2009, 12:01:52 PM
Quote from: premont on April 19, 2009, 10:51:18 AM
Even I would take Rübsam over Koopman every time. Not the least because of Koopman´s untidy mannerisms, which I often find irritating. Just listen to the way he (in the DG recording) adorns the Fugue theme of BWV 538 (the Dorian T+F).

Ha!
Koopman and his joyous adornments!
(I think Harnoncourt doesn't believe in all those self-invented ornamentations, either. I remember an interview where he way saying something like: "just play the ornamentations that Bach wrote down himself". Problem though: there aren't that many original handwritings of his organ works left, AFAIK.)

Just a small side-step:
This afternoon I saw on the telly the last 20 minutes or so of a documentary about the Oscar Back violinist concours in the Netherlands. Oscar Back, a Hungarian violin teacher, who lived in Amsterdam for a great part of his life, was quoted: "you don't have to wear a beard if you want to play Bach". In those days, Bach apparently was mainly considered a very serious wig, only to be understood by serious elder people.
Well, maybe there you have the main difference between two 'mannered' Bach interpreters Rübsam and Koopman.
Rübsam is not wearing a beard (he's wearing an impressive moustache, though), but in a way he's playing Bach like he wears one. Slow, very thoughtful, sometimes trying to stop time from going on, as though the old bearded wig would not accept that time waits for no one, or even trying to achieve some kind of an afterlife already. Comparable with Celibidache? (he asked hesitatingly).
Koopman is wearing a beard. And Koopman is growing older, too, but doesn't seem to bother about those things. He's still playing Bach like he's some enthousiastic adolescent, full of life. Sometimes that can be irritating, I agree with you. One has to be in the right mood for that. But maybe I still want to feel like an adolescent myself, because in most cases Koopman's organ playing is able to make me feel good and give me new energy.

Well, I guess that's it for today. I'm off to bed!
Nice talking with both of you, Bulldog and Premont, despite the different opinions here and there. See ya again on the board.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 19, 2009, 02:55:09 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 19, 2009, 12:01:52 PM
Rübsam is not wearing a beard (he's wearing an impressive moustache, though), but in a way he's playing Bach like he wears one. Slow, very thoughtful, sometimes trying to stop time from going on, as though the old bearded wig would not accept that time waits for no one, or even trying to achieve some kind of an afterlife already.

Thi is very much what I think too, but I would not call him mannered in the usual sense. I think his agogics are rather spontaneous, and would expect two performances of the same work by him to be somewhat different as to musical content.




Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 20, 2009, 04:53:36 PM
You will be amused at reading the wiki page on Wolfgang Rübsam.  He actually works part-time at a barber shop in Indiana ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_R%C3%BCbsam
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 20, 2009, 08:43:45 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 20, 2009, 04:53:36 PM
You will be amused at reading the wiki page on Wolfgang Rübsam.  He actually works part-time at a barber shop in Indiana ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_R%C3%BCbsam

:)

Someone should compose an opera about him!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 22, 2009, 07:47:08 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 20, 2009, 08:43:45 PM
:)

Someone should compose an opera about him!

Today I was reading the book Sculpting in time of the Russian cinema director Andrei Tarkovski, when I found this:

"I am always lost in admiration for those medieval Japanese artists who worked in the court of their Shogun until they had achieved recognition, and then, at the peak of their fame, would change their entire lives by going off in secret to a new place to start working again under a different name and in another style. Some are known to have lived up to five distinct lives. That is freedom!"

I immediately recalled these messages about Rübsam.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 23, 2009, 07:17:23 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 20, 2009, 04:53:36 PM
You will be amused at reading the wiki page on Wolfgang Rübsam.  He actually works part-time at a barber shop in Indiana ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_R%C3%BCbsam

Since Rubsam owns the shop, he can work as many or few hours as he wants.  Cutting hair requires admirable dexterity of the hands and fingers.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 07:01:48 AM
For those who know this Gerhard Weinberger's set well, which is the best CD in this set?  I just ordered this set from MDT two days ago ...


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ch6MV8HFL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 25, 2009, 08:32:13 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 07:01:48 AM
For those who know this Gerhard Weinberger's set well, which is the best CD in this set?  I just ordered this set from MDT two days ago ...


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ch6MV8HFL._SS500_.jpg)


Those discs that have the Orgelbüchlein, Leipzig Chorales and Art of Fugue.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 09:05:06 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 22, 2009, 07:47:08 PM
Today I was reading the book Sculpting in time of the Russian cinema director Andrei Tarkovski, when I found this:

"I am always lost in admiration for those medieval Japanese artists who worked in the court of their Shogun until they had achieved recognition, and then, at the peak of their fame, would change their entire lives by going off in secret to a new place to start working again under a different name and in another style. Some are known to have lived up to five distinct lives. That is freedom!"

I immediately recalled these messages about Rübsam.


Rübsam seems to be a humble person who does not want to put himself on the pedestal, a trap many artists who have achieved some fame always fall into ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 09:09:37 AM
While Margaret Phillips has been billed as one of the most outstanding organists in England, after I have listened to the first of the four 2-CD sets on the Regent label I have recently bought from MDT, I still have not been charmed by her performance.  Her performance of the Schubler Chorale sounds nice, but I like Daniel Chorzempa better ... 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41OkGGDtVRL._SS400_.jpg)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 25, 2009, 09:54:08 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 09:09:37 AM
While Margaret Phillips has been billed as one of the most outstanding organists in England, after I have listened to the first of the four 2-CD sets on the Regent label I have recently bought from MDT, I still have not been charmed by her performance.  Her performance of the Schubler Chorale sounds nice, but I like Daniel Chorzempa better ... 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41OkGGDtVRL._SS400_.jpg)



Sorry to hear that you're not pleased with the first set.  Maybe things will improve as you progress.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 10:15:15 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 25, 2009, 09:54:08 AM
Sorry to hear that you're not pleased with the first set.  Maybe things will improve as you progress.

I wonder if I should have played the CD on my big rig instead of my desktop.  My bipolar speakers and the 230 watts/ch amp are a world different than my desktop. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 25, 2009, 10:35:55 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 10:15:15 AM


I wonder if I should have played the CD on my big rig instead of my desktop.  My bipolar speakers and the 230 watts/ch amp are a world different than my desktop. 

Yes, give it your best equipment.  The king of instruments deserves nothing less.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 04:11:34 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 25, 2009, 10:35:55 AM
Yes, give it your best equipment.  The king of instruments deserves nothing less.

You are absolutely correct.  Playing organ works on a desktop makes little sense since I am missing all the bass of the pipe organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 08:10:59 PM
This DVD is almost like a compendium to Marie-Claire Alain's 3rd cycle of Bach Organ Works for which various historical organs were used for the recording of that cycle.  In fact, I believe the DVD (shot in 1990) was filmed during the time of that recording cycle.  For those of us who love organ works but really have never seen how that king of instruments is played, this DVD is great.  With a three-tiered keyboard and the pedals make up another keyboard on the foot level, the organ is helluva musical instrument to play.  The DVD not only shows some virtuoso organ playing by one of the greatest organists in the last 50 years, it also shows some fancy footwork on the part of Alain to make that organ hit the spine-tinkling lows.  For about $15 with shipping from Amazon MP, it is a bargain.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FcgHXc4TL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 25, 2009, 11:13:17 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 08:10:59 PM
[Very positive remarks about the Marie-Claire Alain DVD]

Seen that one on the internet before. Thanks for the reminder!
My wallett is rather empty, but I'm sure I'll be ordering this one before the year has ended!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 26, 2009, 11:51:42 AM
Re-playing CD2, which includes the 6 Schubler Chorales of this set on my big rig.  The organ playing definitely comes alive compared with playing the same disc on my Dell desktop, as I could hear the pedals and the music gets pumped through the bipolar (tower) speakers by the 230 watts/ch amp.  Indeed, pipe organ music has to be played on a real sound system, not a computer.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41OkGGDtVRL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 27, 2009, 12:54:55 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 26, 2009, 11:51:42 AM
Re-playing CD2, which includes the 6 Schubler Chorales of this set on my big rig.  The organ playing definitely comes alive compared with playing the same disc on my Dell desktop, as I could hear the pedals and the music gets pumped through the bipolar (tower) speakers by the 230 watts/ch amp.  Indeed, pipe organ music has to be played on a real sound system, not a computer.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41OkGGDtVRL._SS400_.jpg)

Having listened now to all the four extant doubleCDs Margaret Philips has released so far, I would say, that she plays like a first class organ pupil, doing all the things the teachers and the great books tell her to do, but I certainly miss some individuality, some individual authority, some sort of individual interpretation, - actually you know all to early in the listening process what she is going to do all through, no surprises there, and in fact listening to her resembles score reading. Well, what about the interesting organs she uses? Yes, but others have made more interesting recordings upon the same organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 27, 2009, 03:23:29 PM
Quote from: premont on April 27, 2009, 12:54:55 PM
Having listened now to all the four extant doubleCDs Margaret Philips has released so far, I would say, that she plays like a first class organ pupil, doing all the things the teachers and the great books tell her to do, but I certainly miss some individuality, some individual authority, some sort of individual interpretation, - actually you know all to early in the listening process what she is going to do all through, no surprises there, and in fact listening to her resembles score reading. Well, what about the interesting organs she uses? Yes, but others have made more interesting recordings upon the same organs.

I pretty much feel the same about the Philips discs, but don't you love the sound on vol. 4?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 27, 2009, 04:56:39 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 27, 2009, 03:23:29 PM
I pretty much feel the same about the Philips discs, but don't you love the sound on vol. 4?

I will report on the sound on Vol. 4 when I get there.  It looks like all 4 volumes were recorded after 2000 and as such, most should have been recorded with the latest recording technology, which may or may not result in better sound.  According to Margaret Phillips' biography, Marie-Claire Alain was her teacher at some point.  I wonder if she has inherited something from that old master ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 27, 2009, 07:06:50 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 27, 2009, 04:56:39 PM
 

I will report on the sound on Vol. 4 when I get there.  It looks like all 4 volumes were recorded after 2000 and as such, most should have been recorded with the latest recording technology, which may or may not result in better sound. 

Just want to say that I generally find little correlation between the date of a recording and its sound quality. 

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 29, 2009, 06:42:06 AM
I'm starting a little marathon of recordings of Bach's Liepzig Chorales.  First one up was George Ritchie on the Raven label.  Enjoyed it very much although variety of expression is not wide.  I felt spiritually enriched while listening; that's all to the good.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 29, 2009, 08:52:25 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 29, 2009, 06:42:06 AM
I'm starting a little marathon of recordings of Bach's Liepzig Chorales. First one up was George Ritchie on the Raven label. 

Ritchie: heard of him, never heard him. But who knows what the future brings. :)
I'm listening to Wolfgang Stockmeier right now. 2 box sets of 10 cd's each, for € 30,--. I hesitated a little while and then I thought: bread & butter tonight, I can afford this!
And I'm quite happy with this purchase after a (very very) short listening: legato in the chorales (which I don't mind), but there seems to be enough spirit in the non-liturgical works. Although the fugue of BWV 565 (why do I always have to start with this??) could use some more bite in the beginning.

Quote from: Bulldog
Enjoyed it very much although variety of expression is not wide. I felt spiritually enriched while listening; that's all to the good.

Well, that's not bad, I'd say. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 29, 2009, 11:42:50 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 29, 2009, 08:52:25 AM
I'm listening to Wolfgang Stockmeier right now. 2 box sets of 10 cd's each, for € 30,--. I hesitated a little while and then I thought: bread & butter tonight, I can afford this!
And I'm quite happy with this purchase after a (very very) short listening: legato in the chorales (which I don't mind), but there seems to be enough spirit in the non-liturgical works. Although the fugue of BWV 565 (why do I always have to start with this??) could use some more bite in the beginning.


Although the Stockmeier set has been around a long time, I've never heard any of it.  I do have Stockmeier performing Scheidt on a CPO disc - very rewarding.








Scheidt
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 29, 2009, 12:11:02 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 29, 2009, 11:42:50 AM
Although the Stockmeier set has been around a long time, I've never heard any of it.  I do have Stockmeier performing Scheidt on a CPO disc - very rewarding.

It looks as if you planned to include a picture of this Scheidt disc, that I could not see though.
Is it the CPO 999 105: Scheidt: Organ Works from Tabulatura Nova (1624)?

Anyway, that's the one I just ordered from the central music library. Thanks for mentioning the Scheidt-Stockmeier connection!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 29, 2009, 01:19:05 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 29, 2009, 12:11:02 PM
It looks as if you planned to include a picture of this Scheidt disc, that I could not see though.
Is it the CPO 999 105: Scheidt: Organ Works from Tabulatura Nova (1624)?

Anyway, that's the one I just ordered from the central music library. Thanks for mentioning the Scheidt-Stockmeier connection!

My pleasure and, yes, you've ordered the right disc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 29, 2009, 04:25:20 PM
The next time I get the chance to buy the 3rd recording of JS Bach Organ Works by Marie-Claire Alain at a good price, I will grab it.  It must be a joy to hear the various JS Bach organ works played on different historical organs throughout Europe ...    ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 29, 2009, 05:27:21 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 29, 2009, 04:25:20 PM
The next time I get the chance to buy the 3rd recording of JS Bach Organ Works by Marie-Claire Alain at a good price, I will grab it.  It must be a joy to hear the various JS Bach organ works played on different historical organs throughout Europe ...    ;D

It's not like Alain is the only performer to do so.  Weinberger comes to mind.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 29, 2009, 05:32:25 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 29, 2009, 05:27:21 PM
It's not like Alain is the only performer to do so.  Weinberger comes to mind.

My 22-CD Weinberger set is on its way from the UK.  I ordered it from MDT last week ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on April 29, 2009, 07:53:56 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 29, 2009, 05:32:25 PM
My 22-CD Weinberger set is on its way from the UK.  I ordered it from MDT last week ...

The Weinberger has to be the MOST complete of 'em all, even among complete Bach sets.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 29, 2009, 09:10:41 PM
In between discussions, etc.:
this Dutch link might be interesting:
http://www.landgoedgerianna.nl/

On the right upper edge of the homepage there are two flags visible: the Dutch 'tricolore' and the Union Jack for the English version. It's possible to order cd's from abroad.
http://www.landgoedgerianna.nl/contact/index.html

For instance, they have (probably a very limited amount) of Bach/Beekman cd's left. One sampler and the volumes 4, 8 and 9.
This series is OOP, so it might be your last chance to get some (only if you're interested, of course).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 01, 2009, 02:51:47 PM
Quote from: traverso on April 29, 2009, 07:53:56 PM
The Weinberger has to be the MOST complete of 'em all, even among complete Bach sets. ;)

Well, Stockmeier's set contains 20 cd's. He finished his integral in 1981. The 'new' Neumeister chorals weren't discovered yet, and neither were BWV 1121 and 1128. He also didn't play BWV Anhang or BWV deest compostions.
Apart from that: he probably beats Weinberger in completeness.

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Organ-Works-Germany/dp/B000H9HZGG/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1241217704&sr=1-5
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Organ-Works-Germany/dp/B000H9HZGQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1241217704&sr=1-3

This integral really is good value for money, IMO.
Stockmeier is playing on neo-baroque organs (I think, there are no booklets inside), made by Kreienbrink. This must be organ builder Matthias Kreienbrink, who, in 1951, took over the organ building company of the Firma Rohlfing in Osnabrück, Germany.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on May 01, 2009, 03:37:04 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 01, 2009, 02:51:47 PM
Well, Stockmeier's set contains 20 cd's. He finished his integral in 1981. The 'new' Neumeister chorals weren't discovered yet, and neither were BWV 1121 and 1128. He also didn't play BWV Anhang or BWV deest compostions.
Apart from that: he probably beats Weinberger in completeness.
(snip)

Weinberger's set looks more complete to me.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 01, 2009, 04:15:48 PM
Quote from: traverso on May 01, 2009, 03:37:04 PM
Weinberger's set looks more complete to me.  ;)

Hey!
I would NEVER deny that!

But there's no BWV 573, 576, 580, 581, 584, 597, 598, 692, 693, 743, 744, 745, 746, 748, 752, 753, 759, etc.
Doubtful authenticity?
Sure, but Weinberger did record other doubtful works, too. Three volumes of Werke zweifelhafter Echtheit, even including .... BWV 565! ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 02, 2009, 09:05:30 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 02, 2009, 06:06:12 AM
I am just baffled by the fact that Stefan Bleicher has not recorded more organ works by Bach.  I have the following set, which is quite nice in my opinion.  But then I am no expert in Franz Liszt.  Isn't he supposed to be one of the promising younger-generation German organists?

I only know that his Bach disc (Arte Nova) has been reissued some years ago, with a graveyard cover:

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cm300/m339/m33971t5fgk.jpg)

That's what I call marketing! Must be a million seller, only because of that!


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 02, 2009, 02:26:10 PM
Quote from: traverso on April 29, 2009, 07:53:56 PM
The Weinberger has to be the MOST complete of 'em all, even among complete Bach sets. ;)

Forgot to mention in our earlier 'battle' ;):
check out Kevin Bowyer (on Nimbus): 17 volumes on 27 cd's. :o
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 02, 2009, 08:08:00 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 02, 2009, 02:26:10 PM
Forgot to mention in our earlier 'battle' ;):
check out Kevin Bowyer (on Nimbus): 17 volumes on 27 cd's. :o

I just received the Weinberger box yesterday and it says 22 CD on its cover ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 02, 2009, 11:40:23 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 02, 2009, 02:26:10 PM
Forgot to mention in our earlier 'battle' ;):
check out Kevin Bowyer (on Nimbus): 17 volumes on 27 cd's. :o

With volumes 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 on two discs and volume 17 on three, I count 29 CDs, total.

But that's hardly the point. (Neither is reading the number off the box and reiterating it--we've already mentioned how many CDs the Weinberger contains. )

The Bowyer CDs (everything I have of his I've liked, actually) aren't nearly as neatly/efficiently stacked as the CPOs with Weinberger. I'm missing several Bowyer volumes, but I'm pretty sure that if we list all the works included, Weinberger will show to be even more comprehensive.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2009, 12:42:13 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 02, 2009, 11:40:23 PM
With volumes 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 on two discs and volume 17 on three, I count 29 CDs, total.

But that's hardly the point. (Neither is reading the number off the box and reiterating it--we've already mentioned how many CDs the Weinberger contains. )

The Bowyer CDs (everything I have of his I've liked, actually) aren't nearly as neatly/efficiently stacked as the CPOs with Weinberger. I'm missing several Bowyer volumes, but I'm pretty sure that if we list all the works included, Weinberger will show to be even more comprehensive.

Right.
Well, anyway: in the end it's about quality, not quantity, isn't it?
But sometimes I like to be a little corny. I wanted to win the 'battle' that much, it even made me miscalculate. :-[
I haven't heard anything from Bowyer yet. Some time ago, I tried to locate his first (?) Bach recital in the (Dutch) central music library catalogue, but couldn't find it. It was called A Late 20th Century Edwardian Bach Recital. I thought it might have been a good introduction to Bowyer's Bach.

Is anyone familiar with his Bach recordings?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 03, 2009, 07:17:44 AM
I am just vigilantly waiting for the third cycle by Marie-Claire Alain to be released in a Warner big box.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 03, 2009, 09:45:42 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 29, 2009, 06:42:06 AM
I'm starting a little marathon of recordings of Bach's Liepzig Chorales.  First one up was George Ritchie on the Raven label.  Enjoyed it very much although variety of expression is not wide.  I felt spiritually enriched while listening; that's all to the good.

I listened to an additional four versions: Christina Garcia Banegas on Motette, Peter Sykes on Raven, Gillian Weir on Priory and Koopman on Teldec.  Surprisingly, I find Ritchie more rewarding than each of the others.  Weir's could have a great version, but there's far too much reverberation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2009, 10:06:41 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 03, 2009, 09:45:42 AM
I listened to an additional four versions: Christina Garcia Banegas on Motette, Peter Sykes on Raven, Gillian Weir on Priory and Koopman on Teldec. Surprisingly, I find Ritchie more rewarding than each of the others. Weir's could have a great version, but there's far too much reverberation.

All those mentioning of recordings that I don't have!

Please Bulldog, don't ruin me (financially)! :'(

Sigh.
Checked the library catalogue (again). Only found Banegas and Weir. Koopman I already have.
Apart from the recording sound, I understand that Weir is interesting. What are her strong points, in your view? And what is your (more detailed) opinion on Banegas?
Thanks in advance for responding.

(EDIT: I've already taken the liberty to order Weir's Volume 3 of the Organ Master Series, with a.o. the so-called Lutheran Mass (BWV 552 et al).)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 03, 2009, 10:41:05 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 03, 2009, 10:06:41 AM
All those mentioning of recordings that I don't have!

Please Bulldog, don't ruin me (financially)! :'(

Sigh.
Checked the library catalogue (again). Only found Banegas and Weir. Koopman I already have.
Apart from the recording sound, I understand that Weir is interesting. What are her strong points, in your view? And what is your (more detailed) opinion on Banegas?
Thanks in advance for responding.

Generally, Weir gives off a strong whiff of "Papa Bach" with his arms stretched out to nuture all takers; unfortunately, the soundstage doesn't quite allow for this full effect.  As for Banegas, she indulges in some clipped rhythmic patterns I don't care for.

Back to Weir.  I also have her volume 3 that you just ordered.  That one's a winner with much better sonics.  If you're interested, you can check out my review on MusicWeb International.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2009, 10:48:18 AM
Don, thanks for answering.
For anyone else who is interested, this must be the MusicWeb link:

http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2004/feb04/bach_weir3.htm

Another recording to look forward to! I'm a very busy man. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 03, 2009, 11:01:43 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 03, 2009, 10:48:18 AM
Don, thanks for answering.
For anyone else who is interested, this must be the MusicWeb link:

http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2004/feb04/bach_weir3.htm

Another recording to look forward to! I'm a very busy man. :)

Has Gillian Weir ever recorded the Complete Bach Organ Works?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 03, 2009, 01:29:40 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 03, 2009, 12:42:13 AM
Right.
Well, anyway: in the end it's about quality, not quantity, isn't it?

Precisely. Not he who has the most CDs wins (although the quantity contest seems to please quite a bit, I gather), but he (or she) who takes the most enjoyment out of the music.

Quote
A Late 20th Century Edwardian Bach Recital[/i]. I thought it might have been a good introduction to Bowyer's Bach.
Is anyone familiar with his Bach recordings?

I find that Bowyer shines where Weinberger is reticent. The big works. There's a splash of indulgence in his Bach that I really quite like. Perhaps not to the very best effect in the Passacaglia (though that's grand stuff, too), but most everywhere else. If you start with his "Organ Mass", I think that'd be a very good, telling, and favorable (or not, but then beware of the rest...) introduction to Bowyer's Bach.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2009, 02:36:54 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 03, 2009, 01:29:40 PM
Precisely. Not he who has the most CDs wins (although the quantity contest seems to please quite a bit, I gather), but he (or she) who takes the most enjoyment out of the music.

I find that Bowyer shines where Weinberger is reticent. The big works. There's a splash of indulgence in his Bach that I really quite like. Perhaps not to the very best effect in the Passacaglia (though that's grand stuff, too), but most everywhere else. If you start with his "Organ Mass", I think that'd be a very good, telling, and favorable (or not, but then beware of the rest...) introduction to Bowyer's Bach.

Thanks for this information.

In about 1 1/2 weeks I will be Organ Massing along with Bach, Bowyer and Weir.
:)

BTW: what I liked about Weir, according to Don's MusicWeb review, is that apparently she has chosen to make both a little and a great 'Lutheran Mass'.
Almost all these third 'Clavierübungs' are spread over 2cd's, so I couldn't program it entirely that way. But I very much understand her choice in this.
In slightly another way, I also appreciate f.i. Van Doeselaar's choice to perform 'only' a great mass, combined with choral singing and works of other composers.

Van Doeselaar link:
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Kyrie-Vater-Ewigkeit-Clavier-Ubung/dp/B00000JPYK
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2009, 03:11:38 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 03, 2009, 11:01:43 AM
Has Gillian Weir ever recorded the Complete Bach Organ Works?

Not that I know of.
In her Organ Master Series there is room for other composers, too.

She's well-known for her Messiaen performances. She recorded his integral in 5 volumes.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 03, 2009, 03:22:32 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 03, 2009, 11:01:43 AM
Has Gillian Weir ever recorded the Complete Bach Organ Works?

If you're looking for another box, Weir is not the answer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 03, 2009, 03:32:38 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 03, 2009, 01:29:40 PM
Precisely. Not he who has the most CDs wins (although the quantity contest seems to please quite a bit, I gather), but he (or she) who takes the most enjoyment out of the music.


I think the "quantity" priority has increased greatly on the board in recent months.  Any ideas why? 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 03, 2009, 04:41:56 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 03, 2009, 03:22:32 PM
If you're looking for another box, Weir is not the answer.

Just out of curiosity.  I really have little intention to go significantly beyond the six sets I already have.  In all likelihood, I will just add the third recording by Marie-Claire Alain and call it quit ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2009, 10:59:54 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 03, 2009, 03:32:38 PM
I think the "quantity" priority has increased greatly on the board in recent months.  Any ideas why? 

Maybe because record companies are offering more and more box sets during the last years?

Honestly, I myself do 'sympathize' with both quality and quantity aspects of buying music.

When Bach's organ compositions are concerned: apparently a lot of respected organist want to record the entire oeuvre, even the works of lesser quality. So why aren't the listeners allowed to want to buy them?

Of course, as was stated before, quality is the main thing.

But if I hear f.i. Koopman or Vernet playing on a single disc and I like what I hear, it may happen that I 'long' to have their entire Bach integral, especially when the price is attractive.
When I see a very budget-priced set (i.c. Stockmeier) I can feel very tempted to buy it, because I'm curious how he's playing and also curious about the price/value combination.

Don, you seem to own a decent amount of recordings yourself. And recently you have been listening to some discs with the Leipzig chorals. I assume that you own them yourself. But apparently they aren't all that good, as your comments are showing. So, according to your own small reviews (thanks again for them!), it may have been wiser to listen to some samples before buying .... like in the good old days in the old-fashioned record shop.

So one could ask in this specific matter:
Why did you buy them?
For quality or quantity reasons?
Out of curiosity?
Did someone with good knowledge praise them?
Or were some of them budget-priced?

Or are you one of the 'chosen people' ;) who get their discs without paying, because they are professional reviewers? In that case, you can have both quantity and quality for free. Maybe it's not really fair to judge the average music lover who wants to have all those discs, too. And who also has to pay for them. 

Don't get me wrong: if a board consists only of remarks like "I have 127 recordings of this, and 74 recordings of that", then I'm bored very quickly, too. Of course I would prefer it, if those collectors would say something interesting about the quality of all those recordings.
As for myself: I find it not that easy to write about (the quality of) music. How does one put one's opinion about music in words? Almost impossible for me, I must admit. Another problem is: English is not my mother tongue, and sometimes it's hard to express myself in that language.

But I'll keep visiting this board for some time I guess. Mainly out of curiosity and, apart from the above mentioned 'problems', because sometimes I feel the urge to communicate about music.

So Don, please keep collecting the single discs and say interesting things about them on this board! :)
And Coop, keep collecting the integrals until your money has gone (if you really want to do that ;)). And please, if possible: say something valuable about all those integrals you (are going to) own. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 04, 2009, 05:29:50 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 03, 2009, 10:59:54 PM

Don, you seem to own a decent amount of recordings yourself. And recently you have been listening to some discs with the Leipzig chorals. I assume that you own them yourself. But apparently they aren't all that good, as your comments are showing. So, according to your own small reviews (thanks again for them!), it may have been wiser to listen to some samples before buying .... like in the good old days in the old-fashioned record shop.

So one could ask in this specific matter:
Why did you buy them?
For quality or quantity reasons?
Out of curiosity?
Did someone with good knowledge praise them?
Or were some of them budget-priced?

Or are you one of the 'chosen people' ;) who get their discs without paying, because they are professional reviewers? In that case, you can have both quantity and quality for free. Maybe it's not really fair to judge the average music lover who wants to have all those discs, too. And who also has to pay for them. 


Most of my record collection does not come from MusicWeb.  Where I have many multiple recordings of particular works, the reason was two-fold: love for the works and an inventory to do review projects for another source. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 04, 2009, 08:59:33 AM
Listened last night to Christopher Herrick's accout of the Leipzig Chorales - definitely one of my favored versions.  Although I tend to prefer my Bach with rather sharp contours, Herrick's sumptuous performances always win my heart.  I have the original 2-cd set that appears to now be oop, but Hyperion has put all of Herrick's cycle in one big box.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 04, 2009, 12:45:26 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 27, 2009, 03:23:29 PM
but don't you love the sound on vol. 4?

Oh yes, but I was referring to the interpretation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 04, 2009, 01:22:02 PM
Quote from: premont on May 04, 2009, 12:45:26 PM
Oh yes, but I was referring to the interpretation.

Understood.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 04, 2009, 04:26:01 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 04, 2009, 08:59:33 AM
Listened last night to Christopher Herrick's accout of the Leipzig Chorales - definitely one of my favored versions.  Although I tend to prefer my Bach with rather sharp contours, Herrick's sumptuous performances always win my heart.  I have the original 2-cd set that appears to now be oop, but Hyperion has put all of Herrick's cycle in one big box.

My only exposure to Herrick was from this CD-set, one of the few recordings of Seelinck's works that are easy to find out there ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XC90NE32L._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 04, 2009, 05:09:03 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 04, 2009, 08:59:33 AM
Listened last night to Christopher Herrick's accout of the Leipzig Chorales - definitely one of my favored versions.  Although I tend to prefer my Bach with rather sharp contours, Herrick's sumptuous performances always win my heart.  I have the original 2-cd set that appears to now be oop, but Hyperion has put all of Herrick's cycle in one big box.

Certainly, Herrick is a rewarding experience. "Spiritually uplifting" was your definition sometime ago and I agree.

Unfortunately, I have detected little interferences in the sound of some pieces. Call me obsessive, but those mistakes are totally anticlimactic.  :-\
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 05, 2009, 03:12:11 AM
Well, I can not say, that I find Bovyers set that interesting. Being a completist in these matters, I intended to acquire the complete set, but ceased after 10 CDs.

First his style is much similar to what was common use in the 1950es-60es with a tendency to legato touch and old fashioned register changes. Add to this a generally overly rushed rather metrical pace, which fast becomes boring. And besides I do not like the sound of this new Marcussen organ, which is "white" and sharp, as if all the pipes were made of stainless steel. I have not heard the organ in question live, but the recorded sound is probably realistic, as I have heard many other contemporary Marcussen organs live, which sounded like this one. Unfortunately he uses the same organ for all the CDs.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on May 05, 2009, 04:33:59 AM
Quote from: premont on May 05, 2009, 03:12:11 AM
Well, I can not say, that I find Bovyers set that interesting. Being a completist in these matters, I intended to acquire the complete set, but ceased after 10 CDs.

First his style is much similar to what was common use in the 1950es-60es with a tendency to legato touch and old fashioned register changes. Add to this a generally overly rushed rather metrical pace, which fast becomes boring. And besides I do not like the sound of this new Marcussen organ, which is "white" and sharp, as if all the pipes were made of stainless steel. I have not heard the organ in question live, but the recorded sound is probably realistic, as I have heard many other contemporary Marcussen organs live, which sounded like this one. Unfortunately he uses the same organ for all the CDs.

Haven't tried as much Bowyer as Premont, but al I can say is: seconded.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 05, 2009, 05:15:38 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 04, 2009, 05:29:50 AM
Most of my record collection does not come from MusicWeb. Where I have many multiple recordings of particular works, the reason was two-fold: love for the works and an inventory to do review projects for another source. 

Understood.
My point is: different people have different ways of collecting music. But to me, that's no reason to downgrade the other person's habits. 'Coop' may be a 'box set collector', and IMO he's free to do so. You're more the type of collecting single discs. Nothing wrong with that, too, I'd say.
I myself do both, and I tend to look at the price, too. I'm not a very wealthy man, you see?

About the box sets of Bach's organ works: for me, the year of 2009 has been a very expensive year so far. I've collected Walcha (mono/Documents), Stockmeier (Documents), Koopman (Teldec), Preston (DG), Beekman (Lindenberg/unfortunately OOP), Vernet (Ligia) and Weinberger (CPO). I already owned Fagius (BIS/Brilliant). I didn't have enough time to listen to all the discs ;), but so far I like Beekman best. Walcha is impressive and Vernet, Weinberger, Fagius and Stockmeier seem to be very good in general, too. I also like Koopman very much, but he's the most eccentric and for that reason probably not to everyone's liking. Preston is too superficial to me, and sometimes even annoying. It feels like he's dancing on a nail bed, especially in many non-liturgical works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 05:38:02 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 05, 2009, 05:15:38 AM
Understood.
My point is: different people have different ways of collecting music. But to me, that's no reason to downgrade the other person's habits. 'Coop' may be a 'box set collector', and IMO he's free to do so. You're more the type of collecting single discs. Nothing wrong with that, too, I'd say.
I myself do both, and I tend to look at the price, too. I'm not a very wealthy man, you see?


It turns out that we have much in common, I do both big box and individual collections.  I have the bulk of the Bach Organ Works recorded by both Marie-Claire Alain and Simon Preston in single CD's, though I would love to get Alain's third and probably her last cycle in the big box.  I also have 5 volumes of Peter Hurford's Bach Organ Works, again not a big box.  I bought the Karajan Symphony Edition just to own the Complete Bruckner Symphonies and the few Haydn Symphonies I do not already have in singles.  I go for the big box based on economic calculations, it would have cost me far more to get the Complete Bruckners and the missing Haydns on individual CD's, with individual liner-notes and CD artworks the only thing to gain ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 05, 2009, 08:20:20 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 05:38:02 AM
It turns out that we have much in common, I do both big box and individual collections.

:)

But even if we didn't have this in common, it should be possible to communicate about music in a decent, non-downgrading way, wouldn't you agree?

Quote from: Coopmv
I have the bulk of the Bach Organ Works recorded by both Marie-Claire Alain and Simon Preston in single CD's, though I would love to get Alain's third and probably her last cycle in the big box.

I regularly enjoy two discs of Alain, one 'greatest hits' aux grand orgues Schwekedel de la Collégiale de Saint-Donat (BWV 565, 578, 593, 542 & 582), and the Trio Sonates of her last integral, played on the beautiful Schnitger organ of the Groningen Der Aa Kerk (Netherlands). Alas, I never heard this organ 'live' in concert, because right now it's been 'in restauration' for already many many years.
Alain's third integral is on my 'wanting-list', too. But it has to wait, for 'wallet reasons'. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 05, 2009, 09:00:58 AM
Just finished listening to Bryndorf's Haenssler recording of the Leipzig Chorales - an excellent interpretation that stresses the majesty and celebration of the music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 05, 2009, 09:39:17 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 05, 2009, 09:00:58 AM
Just finished listening to Bryndorf's Haenssler recording of the Leipzig Chorales - an excellent interpretation that stresses the majesty and celebration of the music.

And I listened this afternoon to half of the Leipzig Chorales played by Simon Preston, shortly after I 'bullied' him. I have to admit: he's doing a better job with these liturgical works, but still he wouldn't be my first choice: after a while I got a bit bored. For instance, that fine choral Schmücke dich, o liebe Seele (BWV 654) didn't really move me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 09:46:13 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 05, 2009, 08:20:20 AM
:)

But even if we didn't have this in common, it should be possible to communicate about music in a decent, non-downgrading way, wouldn't you agree?

I regularly enjoy two discs of Alain, one 'greatest hits' aux grand orgues Schwekedel de la Collégiale de Saint-Donat (BWV 565, 578, 593, 542 & 582), and the Trio Sonates of her last integral, played on the beautiful Schnitger organ of the Groningen Der Aa Kerk (Netherlands). Alas, I never heard this organ 'live' in concert, because right now it's been 'in restauration' for already many many years.
Alain's third integral is on my 'wanting-list', too. But is has to wait, for 'wallet reasons'. ;)

Here is one of my all-time favorites ...

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 05, 2009, 10:02:04 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 09:46:13 AM
Here is one of my all-time favorites ...
[pic of MCA's Trio Sonatas CD, recorded at l'Église Saint-Hilaire de Näfels, Glaris, Switzerland]

Oui, la Grande Dame des Orgues did record an 'awful' lot of Bach. Not only three integrals, but a lot of 'single discs', too. Quite a legacy, and a gift to all her fans. If I'm not mistaken, Olivier Vernet was one of her pupils. She plays with him (and 2 others) in the integral of Vernet, i.c. the organ arrangments of the multiple harpsichord concertos. A nice bonus to the Vernet set!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 10:13:56 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 05, 2009, 10:02:04 AM
Oui, la Grande Dame des Orgues did record an 'awful' lot of Bach. Not only three integrals, but a lot of 'single discs', too. Quite a legacy, and a gift to all her fans. If I'm not mistaken, Olivier Vernet was one of her pupils. She plays with him (and 2 others) in the integral of Vernet, i.c. the organ arrangments of the multiple harpsichord concertos. A nice bonus to the Vernet set!

The English organist Margaret Phillips was one of Alain's students as well.  I just bought all her 4 volumes of Bach Organ Works on Regent ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 05, 2009, 11:55:40 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 05, 2009, 09:39:17 AM
And I listened this afternoon to half of the Leipzig Chorales played by Simon Preston, shortly after I 'bullied' him. I have to admit: he's doing a better job with these liturgical works, but still he wouldn't be my first choice: after a while I got a bit bored. For instance, that fine choral Schmücke dich, o liebe Seele (BWV 654) didn't really move me.

Who would be your first choice or choices?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 05, 2009, 12:40:33 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 03, 2009, 10:41:05 AM
As for Banegas, she indulges in some clipped rhythmic patterns I don't care for.

Listened for the first time to this to day (and only the second half). IMO the sound of this Trost organ is nothing but very charming, and this was originally the reason why I acquired it. And Banegas´ registrations are rather colourful I think. I only heard "clipped rhythmic patterns" in the first chorale on Nun komm, der Heiden Heilland BWV 659, some of the melisms in the cantus being a bit abrupt. Else I liked it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 05, 2009, 01:26:06 PM
Quote from: premont on May 05, 2009, 12:40:33 PM
Listened for the first time to this to day (and only the second half). IMO the sound of this Trost organ is nothing but very charming, and this was originally the reason why I acquired it. And Banegas´ registrations are rather colourful I think. I only heard "clipped rhythmic patterns" in the first chorale on Nun komm, der Heiden Heilland BWV 659, some of the melisms in the cantus being a bit abrupt. Else I liked it.

I think I've listened to the Banegas about five times.  Maybe no. 6 will be the winner.  I do agree about the Trost organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 05, 2009, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 29, 2009, 09:10:41 PM
On the right upper edge of the homepage there are two flags visible: the Dutch 'tricolore' and the Union Jack for the English version. It's possible to order cd's from abroad.
http://www.landgoedgerianna.nl/contact/index.html
For instance, they have (probably a very limited amount) of Bach/Beekman cd's left. One sampler and the volumes 4, 8 and 9.
This series is OOP, so it might be your last chance to get some (only if you're interested, of course).

Thanks to the research of Marc I have been able to acquire almost half of Bram Beekman´s Bach integral, and have used much of the past weekend to listen to him. Fortunately I got the volumes recorded in Alkmaar, Groningen and Maasluis.

What strikes me at once is Beekman´s unsensational style. He deliberately underplays any chance to show his technical powers. In this point he is rather similar to Wolfgang Stockmeier. The next is Beekman´s calm "comfortable" tempi, lending the music nice time to unfold. His registrations are rather scholary, and I certainly appreciate that he plays the entire Art of Fugue without the use of the pedal, as well as he plays the entire Passacaglia with unchanged coupled HW/RP plenum - to mention some examples. His agogics are discrete, so no great gestures here. The combination of his sparse agogics and the fact that he seems to suffer from some legato-fobia and very often articulates non legato / staccato in an almost stubborn way, gives the impression of a somewhat pedantic approach to the music, and makes me think of Daniel Chorzempa´s Bach recordings from the early 1980es, where any kind of legato (even the binding of just two notes) was "forbidden". E.g.: Beekman´s h-minor Fugue BWV 544 is for this very reason hard to stand through, and this is also true of a number of other choralfree works. And generally I find him most impressive in the choralbound works, where he seems to relax a little more. His style is close to the style of Ewald Kooiman as exemplified by Kooiman´s second integral (for Coronata). But Kooiman´s articulation was much more considered in detail and varied and therefore more expressive concerning the affect he wanted to evoke. In this context the book: "Zur Interpretation der Orgelmusik Joh.Seb.Bach´s" by Kooiman and Gerhard Weinberger (Verlag Merseburger 1995) is interesting reading. Unfortunately you have to read it in German.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 05, 2009, 01:48:51 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 05, 2009, 05:15:38 AM
Preston is too superficial to me, and sometimes even annoying. It feels like he's dancing on a nail bed, especially in many non-liturgical works.

Yes, exactly superficial. I think he skates through most of the P&F´s and T&F´s in a rather insensitive way. But as you wrote later in this thread, his Chorales are better, and I also think he captures the chamber music-like playfulness of the Triosonatas rather well. And also the Concerto arrangements stand his treatment better than the P&F´s. And the Marcussen organ in Dom zu Lübeck he uses for the Concertos is a better instrument than the Marcussen organ in Odense, which Bovyer uses.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 05, 2009, 09:59:55 PM
Quote from: premont on May 05, 2009, 01:34:55 PM
Thanks to the research of Marc I have been able to acquire almost half of Bram Beekman´s Bach integral, and have used much of the past weekend to listen to him. Fortunately I got the volumes recorded in Alkmaar, Groningen and Maasluis.

What strikes me at once is Beekman´s unsensational style. He deliberately underplays any chance to show his technical powers. In this point he is rather similar to Wolfgang Stockmeier. The next is Beekman´s calm "comfortable" tempi, lending the music nice time to unfold. His registrations are rather scholary, and I certainly appreciate that he plays the entire Art of Fugue without the use of the pedal, as well as he plays the entire Passacaglia with unchanged coupled HW/RP plenum - to mention some examples. His agogics are discrete, so no great gestures here. The combination of his sparse agogics and the fact that he seems to suffer from some legato-fobia and very often articulates non legato / staccato in an almost stubborn way, gives the impression of a somewhat pedantic approach to the music, and makes me think of Daniel Chorzempa´s Bach recordings from the early 1980es, where any kind of legato (even the binding of just two notes) was "forbidden". E.g.: Beekman´s h-minor Fugue BWV 544 is for this very reason hard to stand through, and this is also true of a number of other choralfree works. And generally I find him most impressive in the choralbound works, where he seems to relax a little more. His style is close to the style of Ewald Kooiman as exemplified by Kooiman´s second integral (for Coronata). But Kooiman´s articulation was much more considered in detail and varied and therefore more expressive concerning the affect he wanted to evoke. In this context the book: "Zur Interpretation der Orgelmusik Joh.Seb.Bach´s" by Kooiman and Gerhard Weinberger (Verlag Merseburger 1995) is interesting reading. Unfortunately you have to read it in German.

Premont, thanks for this review of Beekman! I share your opinion that he's more impressive in the liturgical works.
About Kooiman: I have been listening with great pleasure to his Kellner-interpretations, part of the Thüringen-organ series. But I fear his Bach integrals are OOP.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 06, 2009, 05:52:53 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 05, 2009, 11:55:40 AM
Who would be your first choice or choices?

Dear Don, would you mind waiting for the 'answer' for a while?
My short furlough is over, and I'm beginning with a new job, which is going to take a lot of my time in the near months. So there won't be much time left for thorough listening, I'm afraid.
I've bought far too much organ cd's the last four months, and I've only listened to them in a more or less 'cut up' way (no systematic hearing, so to speak). In general, I already mentioned something about my preferences recently.

I will pick some organists though, and listen to their Leipzig Chorales, and try to be disciplined enough to take some notes. If such a 'review' is really worthwhile .... dunno. I don't know anything about the technical aspects of organ playing, including the registration part. Do I hear 'flauto dolce'/'vox humana'/'bassoon'/'bourdon' (?), etcetera.

BTW: to learn something more about the instrument, I might be visiting an organ building company next saturday: Mense Ruiter in Zuidwolde, province of Groningen, Netherlands. It's Orgeldag in the nothern regions of the Netherlands, so everyone is free to visit. Including free visiting of a lot of churches with historic organs. I've 'planned' to visit the organ of the Hervormde Kerk at Noordwolde, (province of Groningen again). It was built around 1658/1659 by Hendrick Huis (alterations in 1802 and 1833 by resp. Hermann Freytag & Nicolaas Anthonie Lohman), and restored by Mense Ruiter in 2007.

Here's a pic of the Huis-organ:

(http://www.hetorgel.nl/image/noordwolde-hk.jpg)

I guess my saturday will be ..... fine. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 06, 2009, 07:44:39 AM
I hadn't listened to Kevin Bowyer's account of the Leipzig Chorales for a few years, and my memories were not favorable.  However, he sounded mighty fine last night, so I take back anything negative I said about his Bach on the board.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 06, 2009, 11:38:48 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 06, 2009, 05:52:53 AM
I guess my saturday will be ..... fine. :)


There you got a good idea. I wish you a nice and instructive day. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 06, 2009, 12:46:33 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 06, 2009, 07:44:39 AM
I hadn't listened to Kevin Bowyer's account of the Leipzig Chorales for a few years, and my memories were not favorable.  However, he sounded mighty fine last night, so I take back anything negative I said about his Bach on the board.

Do not know his Leipzig Chorales, they may be better, but I know many other vol.s of his Bach set e.g. Art of Fugue, Clavierübung III, the Toccatas an a large part of the P&F´s, and I am not in the least impressed by his superficial Bach on speed style, and I would without hesitation rank him among the undermost 10%. Do you actually recommend his Leipzig Chorales?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 06, 2009, 04:50:28 PM
Quote from: premont on May 06, 2009, 12:46:33 PM
Do not know his Leipzig Chorales, they may be better, but I know many other vol.s of his Bach set e.g. Art of Fugue, Clavierübung III, the Toccatas an a large part of the P&F´s, and I am not in the least impressed by his superficial Bach on speed style, and I would without hesitation rank him among the undermost 10%. Do you actually recommend his Leipzig Chorales?

Let's not go whole-hog here.  My favorable reaction had much to do with my traditional thinking that Bowyer's Bach sucked.  He's far from being one of my favored artists, but I've definitely heard worse - Murray comes to mind.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 09, 2009, 05:13:15 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on May 06, 2009, 04:50:28 PM
Let's not go whole-hog here.  My favorable reaction had much to do with my traditional thinking that Bowyer's Bach sucked.  He's far from being one of my favored artists, but I've definitely heard worse - Murray comes to mind.

Michael Murray is probably the worst organist in recording.  His fellow American organ Daniel Chorzempa is way better. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 11, 2009, 11:27:52 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 06, 2009, 05:52:53 AM
I guess my saturday will be ..... fine. :)

Quote from: premont on May 06, 2009, 11:38:48 AM
There you got a good idea. I wish you a nice and instructive day. :)

Yes, it was a nice and instructive day. Visited two churches (with the Lohman organ in Zuidwolde [1817/1836] & the Huisz organ [1658/1659] in Noordwolde) and the studio of organ builder Mense Ruiter. What a delicate job that is. Unfortunately, my knowledge & understanding of technics & physics has always been rather poor. But I also brought a friend of mine and he's much more interested in the technical part of any thing. Which meant he had a great time, too. :)
When we entered the village church in Noordwolde, an amateur organist - who played rather well - was playing Buxtehude's D minor Passacaglia BuxWV 161, and he was obviously very very pleased with the instrument.

I myself wasn't on any player's list, so I did not bring any music. Too bad, because in Zuidwolde I had the chance to play something. This organ wasn't officially part of the organ day, because it's being restored right now by Mense Ruiter.
Anyway: I played the first bars of Mozart's KV 545 on the yellow ivory keys of this Lohman organ (it sounded great! :)), and a boogie woogie on an old small chamber pipe organ at the builder's workshop. Especially the latter recital was greeted with great enthousiasm by the other visitors. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 02, 2009, 06:13:37 AM
During the weekend I was listening to some excerpts of the Stockmeier's recordings.

I just heard 30 sec. or so in every piece, but I was rather impressed about his sobriety and straightforward style.  

Nice sound, too.

Has anyone any opinion about him?

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 02, 2009, 06:51:31 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on June 02, 2009, 06:13:37 AM
During the weekend I was listening to some excerpts of the Stockmeier's recordings.

... I was rather impressed about his sobriety and straightforward style.  

Has anyone any opinion about him?

Sober and straightforward style is an apt description. His efforts may not be the result of the latest historical information, and some will find his playing underarticulated. But even leaving HIP considerations aside he is a rather self effacing artist, letting the music speak for itself, avoiding any kind of excesses a la Koopman and the likes. Stockmeier´s integrale is available for 22 Euro´s on DOC at JPC. The AoF and the Neumeister chorales are not included, but else it is one of the most complete sets available.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 02, 2009, 07:18:43 AM
Quote from: premont on June 02, 2009, 06:51:31 AM
... he is a rather self effacing artist, letting the music speak for itself, avoiding any kind of excesses a la Koopman and the likes.

That was exactly my impression. I'm the Koopman's alter ego  ;), but you are right: as an organist he can be unbearable sometimes.

Quote from: premont on June 02, 2009, 06:51:31 AM
Stockmeier´s integrale is available for 22 Euro´s on DOC at JPC. The AoF and the Neumeister chorales are not included, but else it is one of the most complete sets available.

What a great store is JPC!  ;D


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: robnewman on June 02, 2009, 01:48:20 PM
Antonio Vivaldi - Double Concerto Op.7 No. 5
Transcription for Solo Organ - (Leipzig c. 1741)
Johann Sebastian Bach
BWV 594
(Marie Claire Alain - Organist)

One of those unique pieces. Not just because it's extraordinary music by Antonio Vivaldi and an equally extraordinary transcription for solo organ by JS Bach but because the organist here is herself one of the most talented, Marie Claire Alain. Between Vivaldi and Bach everything musical seems possible.  :)


http://www.mediafire.com/?5ihjqwwwjmm

/












Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 03, 2009, 11:43:15 AM
Quote from: premont on June 02, 2009, 06:51:31 AM
Sober and straightforward style is an apt description. His efforts may not be the result of the latest historical information, and some will find his playing underarticulated. But even leaving HIP considerations aside he is a rather self effacing artist, letting the music speak for itself, avoiding any kind of excesses a la Koopman and the likes.

Poor Ton! Gosh Premont, you're harsh! ;D

But indeed, Stockmeier is, whatever edition you buy, well worth his money. Sometimes maybe too much legato for my likings, but he's an honest no-nonsense interpreter, if I may say so. Also, there's this 'bonus' in the kinda 'crackling' sound of the Kreienbrink organs, which I'm rather attracted to.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 03, 2009, 01:36:49 PM
Quote from: Marc on June 03, 2009, 11:43:15 AM
But indeed, Stockmeier is, whatever edition you buy, well worth his money. Sometimes maybe too much legato for my likings, but he's an honest no-nonsense interpreter, if I may say so. Also, there's this 'bonus' in the kinda 'crackling' sound of the Kreienbrink organs, which I'm rather attracted to.

Yes, as I implied above, his style is a bit "oldfashioned". But nice that you draw attention to the Kreienbrink organs. Even if they are modern neo-baroque organs, they have got an appealing crisp sound, which in my opinion is well suited for Bach. An he uses maybe 15 different organs all in all. One may suspect Kreienbrink having sponsored the recordings. I shall add, that the DOC release has got the better sound.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on June 03, 2009, 04:31:29 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 03, 2009, 01:41:23 PM
His was my first set... the faux-linen covered box from Music & Arts (or some such label). Good stuff, indeed.

My 22-CD Weinberger set is still in its cellophane after it arrived from MDT over a month ago.  I started listening to my stereo Helmut Walcha set a few weeks ago but have managed to get to only CD2.  I like Helmut Walcha and really do not give a damn as to what some people think ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on June 04, 2009, 12:07:50 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on June 03, 2009, 04:31:29 PM
I like Helmut Walcha and really do not give a damn as to what some people think ...

There's nothing wrong with being a Walcha fan.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 04, 2009, 09:39:58 AM
Quote from: traverso on June 04, 2009, 12:07:50 AM
There's nothing wrong with being a Walcha fan.  ;)

Seconded.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 04, 2009, 01:39:25 PM
Quote from: Marc on June 04, 2009, 09:39:58 AM
Seconded.

Thirded.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 15, 2009, 10:44:12 AM
I've been mesmerized by Bach's organ for about 6 months now, and it's been a dazzling experience so far.
But summer is on its way, and maybe I need to cool down a bit.

A good choice for a cold shower ;) has been a couple of volumes of the Michel Chapuis integral. He's fast, sometimes a bit too wild I think, without the enthousiasm and expressiveness of the adolescent Koopman (IMHO), and unfortunately the 2 volumes I listened to (5 & 14) were very shrill in recording sound (recordings around 1970).

Now I listen to Chapuis, almost on a daily basis, when I'm travelling towards work. He keeps me awake! And because of the lesser quality of my disc-man incl. headphones (rather 'woolly' sound) the sharpness is almost inaudible.
The same goes for the Third Clavierübung, performed by Kevin Bowyer. Also a bit too sharp for my taste, but thanks to my modest travelling equipment I'm still able to enjoy it!

Somehow I seem to manage to make all 'my' discs worthwhile! ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on June 15, 2009, 05:16:28 PM
My 22-CD Weinberger set is still in its cellophane, which I got from MDT at a great price some two months ago before the worthless dollar took a tumble against the pound.   >:(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 16, 2009, 12:26:22 PM
Quote from: Marc on June 15, 2009, 10:44:12 AM
A good choice for a cold shower ;) has been a couple of volumes of the Michel Chapuis integral. He's fast, sometimes a bit too wild I think, without the enthousiasm and expressiveness of the adolescent Koopman (IMHO), and unfortunately the 2 volumes I listened to (5 & 14) were very shrill in recording sound (recordings around 1970).

There are no volume indications in my complete Chapuis set, but I suppose you are listening to the second of the CDs recorded on the Arp Schnitger organ in Zwolle (with BWV 531, 533, 536, 537, 542, 544, 549 and 550) and the second CD rcorded on the P G Andersen organ, Sct. Bendts Kirke, Ringsted (with some Kirnberger Chorales and a few pieces without BWV).

I think the Zwolle organ may seem shrill because it is tuned in Hohe Chorton and because it has got IIRC some sharp mixtures.

Many Danish built organs from the second half of the 2000th century have got a rather sharp incisive sound quality. The ideal was to create an almost neutral instrument with the greatest possible clarity of sound, meant to be ideal for baroque polyphony. This led to a kind of standard instrument with almost clinical properties and very little individual character. Marcussen was maybe the greatest sinner (and P G Andersen who got his education by Marcussen), but even Metzler in Schweiz built organs of this kind (e.g. the by P G Andersen designed Metzler organ in the Cathedral of Geneva). Having heard the Ringsted organ and many other Marcussen organs as well as the Geneva organ on location, I think that the organs are partly to be blamed for the sharp sound of the recordings.

As to Chapuis he was never my cup of tea. Excentrical, fast and often sloppy, often using strange and almost ugly registrations and changing registrations absurdly often and without stylistical arguments.




Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 16, 2009, 07:37:09 PM
Quote from: premont on June 16, 2009, 12:26:22 PM
[....] I think that the organs are partly to be blamed for the sharp sound of the recordings.

Quite possible. On the other hand: I do have Zwolle recordings that are far more better in sound.

Quote from: premont
As to Chapuis he was never my cup of tea. Excentrical, fast and often sloppy, often using strange and almost ugly registrations and changing registrations absurdly often and without stylistical arguments.

I'll take a note of that.
This I 'discovered' myself: after some more listening in the train, I find his choral recordings of volume 14 very shallow. No spiritual involvement to be heard, unfortunately.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 26, 2009, 10:53:29 AM
What about André Isoir?

Today I listened to his two The Great Toccatas discs, and I certainly prefer the first one, played in 1975 on the Ahrend organ of the Lambertikirche in Aurich, Germany. I also like the Ahrend organ sound more than that of the Grenzing organ in Saint-Cyprién (Dordogne, France), where the latter was recorded in 1993.

As far as the interpretations are concerned: Isoir seems more innerly involved and more at ease with the pieces in the seventies recording. Especially BWV 565 and 542 are really a joy to listen to! There might be a certain softness in his approach, but after listening to (f.i.) George Ritchie it was some kind of a 'relief' .... well, apparently there's a Bach for each and every mood. :)
(The track index on my 1975 Isoir copy isn't correct though: one should reverse BWV 540 & 538!)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 29, 2009, 12:02:47 PM
BUMPING this thread again and again. :D

No, seriously, I'm in heaven after attending a recital of Jacques van Oortmerssen, playing the Schnitger/Hinsz organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL.
Buxtehude, Scheidemann, Mendelssohn, J.L. Krebs, and the finishing touch was .... the eternal Pasacaglia & Thema Fugatum in C minor, BWV 582.

Listening to organ music at home, or whilst travelling (with headphones) is all very nice, but listening to an organ like this in real life is .... (have a guess).

Jürgen Ahrend did a magnificent job in the eighties with restoring this devaluated instrument!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 01, 2009, 09:48:02 AM
BUMPIN' BUMPIN' BUMPIN',
keep them organs movin' ....

Had a (very) good afternoon, again at the Martinikerk. Sietze de Vries was talking about and showing off both organs. At first the very pretty little chorus organ, built appr. 1742 by Jean-Baptiste Le Picard.

And, of course, the grand organ that was restored in the eighties by Ahrend.

After his final improvisations, a few of us were allowed to climb the small stairs and visit the holy shrine. Among them member Marc. :P
Very nice and friendly guy, Sietze de Vries, who played some marvellous improvisations and gave the visitors the entire organ with Bach's Toccata, Adagio & Fugue in C Major, BWV 564.

And now I'm gonna take a listen to Ewald Kooiman, Bach's Organ Mass. Yummy in advance ....
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 09:55:16 AM
Just played this 2-CD set by Lionel Rogg, an excellent set ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51n6OxgMs0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 01, 2009, 12:19:03 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 09:55:16 AM
Just played this 2-CD set by Lionel Rogg, an excellent set ...
[image of Rogg's Kunst der Fuge & Vivaldi Concertos / EMI]

Part of the third integral?
EMI should finally issue this on CD.

I mean: come on, the man is a rewarded Bach interpreter.
He recorded three (more or less) integrals.
AFAIK, his first (Oryx) and third (EMI) were never released on Compact Disc, and his second (Harmonia Mundi) is officially OOP.
I have an EMI sampler (issued january 2009) and think it's quite good, but in most cases, when I read reviews about Rogg, his HM recordings are praised.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 12:24:22 PM
Quote from: Marc on August 01, 2009, 12:19:03 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 09:55:16 AM
Just played this 2-CD set by Lionel Rogg, an excellent set ...
[image of Rogg's Kunst der Fuge & Vivaldi Concertos / EMI]

Part of the third integral?
EMI should finally issue this on CD.

I mean: come on, the man is a rewarded Bach interpreter.
He recorded three (more or less) integrals.
AFAIK, his first (Oryx) and third (EMI) were never released on Compact Disc, and his second (Harmonia Mundi) is officially OOP.
I have an EMI sampler (issued january 2009) and think it's quite good, but in most cases, when I read reviews about Rogg, his HM recordings are praised.

Here is the other 2-CD set I got.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PZgViaDKL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

For years, Rogg's only other CD I have is the following CD, though I also have an 18-LP set on EMI Electrola, some German pressings I bought 25 years ago ...



Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 01, 2009, 12:36:55 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 12:24:22 PM
Here is the other 2-CD set I got.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PZgViaDKL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Yep. That's the one I've got, too .... and even enjoy :).

Quote from: Coopmv
For years, Rogg's only other CD I have is the following CD, though I also have an 18-LP set on EMI Electrola, some German pressings I bought 25 years ago ...
[LP box cover EMI/Angel]

EMI: BURN THEM .... TO CD'S!!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 12:40:23 PM
Quote from: Marc on August 01, 2009, 12:36:55 PM
Yep. That's the one I've got, too .... and even enjoy :).

EMI: BURN THEM .... TO CD'S!!

I hear you.  I have digitized two open-reel tapes to hard-drive with quite satisfactory results.  But digitizing LP's to hard-drive is a very different matter since the clicks and pops take a bit of work to remove unless this process can be auotmated ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 01, 2009, 01:04:21 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 12:40:23 PM
I hear you.  I have digitized two open-reel tapes to hard-drive with quite satisfactory results. But digitizing LP's to hard-drive is a very different matter since the clicks and pops take a bit of work to remove unless this process can be auotmated ...

Relax Coop. I meant to say that EMI should burn them (the mastertapes, that is)! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 01:09:13 PM
Quote from: Marc on August 01, 2009, 01:04:21 PM
Relax Coop. I meant to say that EMI should burn them (the mastertapes, that is)! :)

I have always wondered where all the tracks on the 18-LP set released by Electrola have gone.  BTW, was Electrola an EMI subsidiary?  I swear I have seen the name popped up in recent years as a separate company.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 01, 2009, 01:16:00 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 01:09:13 PM
I have always wondered where all the tracks on the 18-LP set released by Electrola have gone. 

I cannot answer this.

Quote from: Coopmv
BTW, was Electrola an EMI subsidiary?  I swear I have seen the name popped up in recent years as a separate company.

The EMI Electrola GmbH was founded 1972, but the history of name started 47 years before.

The Gramophone Company founded the Electrola GmbH in 1925 in Berlin. In 1931 Electrola started a Joint Venture with the Carl Lindström AG. In the same year the parent companies - Gramophone Company and Columbia Gramophone Company - merged into the Electric & Musical Industries Ltd. (EMI). In 1952 the two german EMI subsidiaries moved to Cologne and twenty years later the Carl Lindström AG merged with Electrola GmbH into the EMI Electrola GmbH.

2002 was a year of reorganisation within the german EMI companies. The EMI Electrola GmbH merged with the Virgin Schallplatten GmbH and formed EMI Music Germany GmbH & Co.

Source: http://www.discogs.com/label/EMI+Electrola

I didn't check the entire discopgraphy, but they do have Imca Marina! ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 01:20:25 PM
Quote from: Marc on August 01, 2009, 01:16:00 PM
I cannot answer this.

The EMI Electrola GmbH was founded 1972, but the history of name started 47 years before.

The Gramophone Company founded the Electrola GmbH in 1925 in Berlin. In 1931 Electrola started a Joint Venture with the Carl Lindström AG. In the same year the parent companies - Gramophone Company and Columbia Gramophone Company - merged into the Electric & Musical Industries Ltd. (EMI). In 1952 the two german EMI subsidiaries moved to Cologne and twenty years later the Carl Lindström AG merged with Electrola GmbH into the EMI Electrola GmbH.

2002 was a year of reorganisation within the german EMI companies. The EMI Electrola GmbH merged with the Virgin Schallplatten GmbH and formed EMI Music Germany GmbH & Co.

Source: http://www.discogs.com/label/EMI+Electrola

I didn't check the entire discopgraphy, but they do have Imca Marina! ;D

Thanks Marc.  I think this Rogg's Bach Organ Works set is not the only EMI Electrola LP-sets I have that I have never seen released on CD.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on August 02, 2009, 01:58:02 AM
Quote from: Marc on July 29, 2009, 12:02:47 PM
BUMPING this thread again and again. :D

No, seriously, I'm in heaven after attending a recital of Jacques van Oortmerssen, playing the Schnitger/Hinsz organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL.
Buxtehude, Scheidemann, Mendelssohn, J.L. Krebs, and the finishing touch was .... the eternal Pasacaglia & Thema Fugatum in C minor, BWV 582.

Listening to organ music at home, or whilst travelling (with headphones) is all very nice, but listening to an organ like this in real life is .... (have a guess).

Jürgen Ahrend did a magnificent job in the eighties with restoring this devaluated instrument!

Ooooh wow! :)

This is a (very) strong reminder that I really should do this more often myself. I mean - when living in the Netherlands & loving organ music - listening to "our"  ;) beautiful organs live is practically mandatory! :o

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 02, 2009, 03:28:48 AM
Quote from: Que on August 02, 2009, 01:58:02 AM
Ooooh wow! :)

This is a (very) strong reminder that I really should do this more often myself. I mean - when living in the Netherlands & loving organ music - listening to "our"  ;) beautiful organs live is practically mandatory! :o

To tell you the truth: I'm lazy with this myself, too. Biking to the Martinikerk is nothing really, considering the fact that I live in Groningen. But I only rarely do it (pfui mich!). On the other hand: I'm just starting! 2009 is the year of my organ (re)discovery.
If the upcoming week is going according to plan, I'll be at the Martini again on wednesday evening. Belgian organist Bernard Foccroulle will give a recital, with (a.o.) works of Schlick, Weckmann, Buxtehude and .... Bach.
 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 02, 2009, 04:16:35 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 02, 2009, 03:28:48 AM
To tell you the truth: I'm lazy with this myself, too. Biking to the Martinikerk is nothing really, considering the fact that I live in Groningen. But I only rarely do it (pfui mich!). On the other hand: I'm just starting! 2009 is the year of my organ (re)discovery.
If the upcoming week is going according to plan, I'll be at the Martini again on wednesday evening. Belgian organist Bernard Foccroulle will give a recital, with (a.o.) works of Schlick, Weckmann, Buxtehude and .... Bach.
 

You lucky Dutch.  We Americans only have mainly second-rate organists.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 07:57:23 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 02, 2009, 04:16:35 AM
 

You lucky Dutch.  We Americans only have mainly second-rate organists.

That is not completely right, Coop. Just these days –in Chile!- I have been listening to recordings by George Ritchie, Joan Lippincott, Christa Rakich (although I don't know if she was born in the United States, but teaches and plays there). All of them excellent in Bach. Probably, you are a little bit lazy too, my friend.  ;D

P.S.: Anyway, those Dutchmen are incredibly lucky guys.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 02, 2009, 10:09:24 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 02, 2009, 04:16:35 AM
You lucky Dutch.  We Americans only have mainly second-rate organists.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 07:57:23 AM
That is not completely right, Coop. Just these days –in Chile!- I have been listening to recordings by George Ritchie, Joan Lippincott, Christa Rakich (although I don't know if she was born in the United States, but teaches and plays there). All of them excellent in Bach. Probably, you are a little bit lazy too, my friend. ;D

P.S.: Anyway, those Dutchmen are incredibly lucky guys.  ;)

Coop wrote: mainly. :P
But maybe every country has mainly second-rate organists. If you would count them all .....
I don't know that many American organisats and I certainly couldn't and wouldn't judge them 'all', but E. Power Biggs (Rest In Peace), Daniel Chorzempa (now living in Italy) and George Ritchie were/are very skilled, IMHO. From what I've heard, I'm not particularly fond of Virgil Fox, though he did a nice job in trying to make this instrument more popular with his 'Heavy Organ' concerts.

And yes, we are very lucky people in Dutch-land. But not everyone here seems to realize that.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on August 02, 2009, 10:21:55 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 02, 2009, 10:09:24 AM
Coop wrote: mainly. :P
But maybe every country has mainly second-rate organists. If you would count them all .....

Well put.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 02, 2009, 10:22:36 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 02, 2009, 10:09:24 AM
Coop wrote: mainly.
But maybe every country has mainly second-rate organists. If you would count them all .....
I don't know that many American organisats and I certainly couldn't and wouldn't judge them 'all', but E. Power Biggs (Rest In Peace), Daniel Chorzempa (now living in Italy) and George Ritchie were/are very skilled, IMHO. From what I've heard, I'm not particularly fond of Virgil Fox, though he did a nice job in trying to make this instrument more popular with his 'Heavy Organ' concerts.

And yes, we are very lucky people in Dutch-land. But not everyone here seems to realize that.

I said "mainly" and referred only to living American organists.  I like Chorzempa and he is the exception.  BTW, I have most of his recordings.  Lets give credit where credit is due.  I am very discriminating as a collector and have no desire to collect the complete Bach Organ Works by 50 different organists.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 10:28:22 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 02, 2009, 10:09:24 AM
Coop wrote: mainly.

Well, I wrote "that's not completely right".  :)

We agree in the rest, Marc.

BTW, Christa Rakich is really excellent. Here some comments and one sample of her Bach Trio Sonatas:

https://www.gothic-catalog.com/J_S_Bach_Trio_Sonatas_Christa_Rakich_2_CDs_p/lrcd-1102-03.htm

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 10:33:34 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 02, 2009, 10:22:36 AM
I am very discriminating as a collector and have no desire to collect the complete Bach Organ Works by 50 different organists.

Especially when they have not been recorded on a "major label", I think.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on August 02, 2009, 10:35:31 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 10:28:22 AM
Well, I wrote "that's not completely right".  :)

We agree in the rest, Marc.

BTW, Christa Rakich is really excellent. Here some comments and one sample of her Bach Trio Sonatas:

https://www.gothic-catalog.com/J_S_Bach_Trio_Sonatas_Christa_Rakich_2_CDs_p/lrcd-1102-03.htm



That was a wonderful sample; I'll have to get me some of that.  I've had a soft spot for the Loft label for many years.  Some folks think that these "organ labels" are just for people interested in organs, but I've found some very compelling performances.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 02, 2009, 01:57:24 PM
Quote from: Marc on July 26, 2009, 10:53:29 AM
What about André Isoir?

Today I listened to his two The Great Toccatas discs, and I certainly prefer the first one, played in 1975 on the Ahrend organ of the Lambertikirche in Aurich, Germany. I also like the Ahrend organ sound more than that of the Grenzing organ in Saint-Cyprién (Dordogne, France), where the latter was recorded in 1993.

As far as the interpretations are concerned: Isoir seems more innerly involved and more at ease with the pieces in the seventies recording. Especially BWV 565 and 542 are really a joy to listen to! There might be a certain softness in his approach, but after listening to (f.i.) George Ritchie it was some kind of a 'relief' .... well, apparently there's a Bach for each and every mood. :)
(The track index on my 1975 Isoir copy isn't correct though: one should reverse BWV 540 & 538!)

Agree completely on Isoir´s two Bach Toccata CDs. Isoir has lost some of his earlier "bite". And the Ahrend organ is a neo-baroque organ of the usual kind, which we are used to listen to in Bach (like Metzler and Marcussen), but the Grenzing organ is an individual type, which IMO is unsuited for baroque music. As to Ritchie I have listened to the lions share of his 11 CD "integral" yesterday and to day (only had listened to this once earlier about three years ago), and I am impressed by his simple registrations and scholary articulation (in this respect - only this - much the same approach as Kooiman and Beekman), and he also reminds me a lot of Hans Fagius with his rather fast tempi and a hint of nervous energy. But I am  not overwhelmed by the mostly newly built American organs Ritchie uses, which I find unsensational to say the least - compared to similar European organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 02, 2009, 02:02:44 PM
Quote from: Marc on July 29, 2009, 12:02:47 PM
No, seriously, I'm in heaven after attending a recital of Jacques van Oortmerssen, playing the Schnitger/Hinsz organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL.
Buxtehude, Scheidemann, Mendelssohn, J.L. Krebs, and the finishing touch was .... the eternal Pasacaglia & Thema Fugatum in C minor, BWV 582.

As you may expect you succeed in making me rather envious. But fortunately I have a good forum friend in Holland, who is very kind and keeps me ájour as to Dutch organ playing. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 02, 2009, 02:10:53 PM
Quote from: Marc on August 01, 2009, 12:19:03 PM
Part of the third integral?

AoF and this recording of the Concerto-arrangements were not part of the third integral.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 02, 2009, 02:18:16 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 10:28:22 AM
Well, I wrote "that's not completely right".  :)

We agree in the rest, Marc.

Yes, we sort of do, in a way, don't we? ;)

Quote from: Antoine Marchand
BTW, Christa Rakich is really excellent. Here some comments and one sample of her Bach Trio Sonatas:

https://www.gothic-catalog.com/J_S_Bach_Trio_Sonatas_Christa_Rakich_2_CDs_p/lrcd-1102-03.htm

Why didn't they credit Papageno on the cd-sleeve? ;D
Nice sample of the sonata, but I missed some involved playfulness in Rakich' organ playing. The vividness is now mainly created by the Glockenspiel. But the entire 2-cd has an interesting program, no doubt.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 02, 2009, 02:29:30 PM
Quote from: premont on August 02, 2009, 01:57:24 PM
[....]
As to Ritchie I have listened to the lions share of his 11 CD "integral" yesterday and to day (only had listened to this once earlier about three years ago), and I am impressed by his simple registrations and scholary articulation (in this respect - only this - much the same approach as Kooiman and Beekman), and he also reminds me a lot of Hans Fagius with his rather fast tempi and a hint of nervous energy. But I am not overwhelmed by the mostly newly built American organs Ritchie uses, which I find unsensational to say the least - compared to similar European organs.

I didn't mean to be negative about Ritchie. I just wanted to give some idea about the contrast of playing between him and Isoir, with Ritchie giving a more heavier approach. I like them both, though. Funny you mention the names of Kooiman et al. Kooiman & Beekman were the first who came to my mind when I recently 'discovered' Ritchie and listened to some of his recordings.
Fagius has been mentioned some times before in this thread. As I've stated before, it's difficult to disappoint me in this oeuvre :), but I think he is slightly underrated. He got some negative reviews in NL after the release of the Brilliant Bach collection in 2000, but IMHO they did not do him justice. But Dutch music reviewers can be rather chauvinistic. Which, when organ playing is concerned, is imaginable. These chauvinistic elements can be found at any place around the world, btw (Gramophone!).

Quote from: premont on August 02, 2009, 02:02:44 PM
As you may expect you succeed in making me rather envious. But fortunately I have a good forum friend in Holland, who is very kind and keeps me ájour as to Dutch organ playing. :)

:P
You're welcome!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 08, 2009, 12:13:38 PM
This interesting story was posted in the Bach's Bungalow thread, about the Otto Winter vs Miklós Spányi 'conspiracy':

Quote from: premont on July 23, 2009, 02:24:25 PM
Interesting information in the Amazon com forum from a poster "Wachovia":
"Otto Winter is not the actual organist!
The real organist is MIKLOS SPANYI of Hungary.
He made the recording in 1987 and sold it to a german record producer. That record producer sold Spanyi's recording to several labels. Such as Point, Madacy, etc.
Some cds say Otto Winter at a Silbermann Organ.
Inactuality it is Miklos Spanyi at the Calvary Chuch in Szombathely, Hungary. The organ was built by the Eule Orgelbou of Germany.
Mr. Spanyi himself emailed this information to me.
Otto Winter is not an organist at all."


Link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ADCES8TQLRK34

This information is confirmed on this site:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Spanyi.htm
(With Spányi himself as one of the contributors.)

[Spanyi's Hungaroton recordings] were issued on CD by quite many low price labels, partly with Miklós Spányi name, partly with the false name 'Otto Winter' (Hungaroton sold the materials to someone who made with it what he wanted...). Unfortunately some labels added two pieces Miklós Spányi has not recorded or not this way:
-Prelude & Fugue in E flat major, BWV 552: Miklós Spányi has never recorded it (unfortunately... he still hopes to do it one day)
-Toccata & Fugue in D minor, BWV 565: Miklós Spányi has recorded it as part of the 'Hungaroton' material but some of 'his' CD's contain it in a 'false' form, played by someone else. However, some publications of the same CD's contain his genuine recording of the piece. His version is about 8:30, recordings considerably longer that this are consequently played by someone else. Also the pitch of my recording is a1=415 Hz, the 'false' versions are all in modern, high pitch. Some labels added 'on Silbermann organ' which isn't true: the instrument in question was a small organ in Szombathely, Hungary, built in 1986 by Eule, Germany, well in Silbermann's style.


Right now I'm listening to the Dorian Toccata, played by Spányi.
In short: his performance may not be of the 'digging deep' kind, it's however very vivid and playful, IMO. Indeed there's this specific 'granular' Silbermann sound of the Eule organ. The 2-cd I recently purchased is marketed by a label called Forum, and it contains the 'Point-label' recordings, with the genuine BWV 565 performance (sigh of relief ;)).

[LATE EDIT:
The 2-cd track list is here (forget about the Silbermann mentioning):
http://www.downeden.com/J-S-Bach-Famous-Organ-Works-Miklos-Spanyi-Silbermann-Organ_71035.html]

About the organist: Spányi is also an enthousiastic player of the harpsichord, clavichord and the tangent piano. Let's forget about this Otto Winter, let's focus on Miklós Spányi.

Has anyone else heard some Bach recordings of him? And if so: what's your opinion?

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 08, 2009, 01:15:17 PM
Quote from: Marc on August 08, 2009, 12:13:38 PM
...Unfortunately some labels added two pieces Miklós Spányi has not recorded or not this way:
-Prelude & Fugue in E flat major, BWV 552: Miklós Spányi has never recorded it (unfortunately... he still hopes to do it one day)
-Toccata & Fugue in D minor, BWV 565: Miklós Spányi has recorded it as part of the 'Hungaroton' material but some of 'his' CD's contain it in a 'false' form, played by someone else. However, some publications of the same CD's contain his genuine recording of the piece. His version is about 8:30, recordings considerably longer that this are consequently played by someone else. Also the pitch of my recording is a1=415 Hz, the 'false' versions are all in modern, high pitch.

Maybe I own about 6 or 7 releases of Bach organ works indicated on the sleeve to be played by Spanyi, Winter and other strange names, most of which I suspect to be the Spanyi recordings. Your link to the Spanyi list and the reference to the pitch and playing time will turn very helpful in the process of clearing things up. In the Amado 40 CD box there are two versions of BWV 565, the one indicated to be by Spanyi, the other by Winter. Confusion, yes, but your post tells me that one of them probably is by Spanyi - but which one - well probably the best one, as indicated on the sleeve. I have found a recording of BWV 565 indicated to be by Eberhard Kraus and which is almost similar to the Winter recording in this box, maybe some editing has taken place, and I much suspect that Kraus is the real organist for this recording. I shall look further into this later.

I agree on your words about Spanyi´s Dorian. Vivid and playful, and rather energetic, - a middle of the road performance I think.

It is late now, I am going to email you to morrow about Rübsam, Wiersma 2 & 7 et.c. I must say now, that Wiersma convinced me from the first listen, and he continues to convince me more and more, the more I listen to him.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 08, 2009, 11:49:52 PM
Quote from: premont on August 08, 2009, 01:15:17 PM
Maybe I own about 6 or 7 releases of Bach organ works indicated on the sleeve to be played by Spanyi, Winter and other strange names, most of which I suspect to be the Spanyi recordings. Your link to the Spanyi list and the reference to the pitch and playing time will turn very helpful in the process of clearing things up. In the Amado 40 CD box there are two versions of BWV 565, the one indicated to be by Spanyi, the other by Winter. Confusion, yes, but your post tells me that one of them probably is by Spanyi - but which one - well probably the best one, as indicated on the sleeve. I have found a recording of BWV 565 indicated to be by Eberhard Kraus and which is almost similar to the Winter recording in this box, maybe some editing has taken place, and I much suspect that Kraus is the real organist for this recording. I shall look further into this later.

Well, maybe this turns out to be a life long investigation ;D, because in the beginning of the nineties the cd world was 'poisoned' by tons of ghost performances, issued by minor labels.

Quote from: premont
I agree on your words about Spanyi´s Dorian. Vivid and playful, and rather energetic, - a middle of the road performance I think.

Concerning and confirming our common opinion about Spányi: indeed, nice to listen to, but these aren't performances that will sink in for eternity.

Quote from: premont
It is late now, I am going to email you to morrow about Rübsam, Wiersma 2 & 7 et.c. I must say now, that Wiersma convinced me from the first listen, and he continues to convince me more and more, the more I listen to him.

Concerning your opinion about Piet Wiersma (or any other Bach organist): please do not hesitate to post them in this thread, too. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 09, 2009, 11:17:34 AM
Quote from: premont on August 08, 2009, 01:15:17 PM
Maybe I own about 6 or 7 releases of Bach organ works indicated on the sleeve to be played by Spanyi, Winter and other strange names [....]

Well, we know now that Spányi isn't a strange name at all. :)
Otto Winter is indeed a misleading tricky name, probably a combination of Helmut Winter and Hans Otto. In earlier years, suspect budget labels wanted to fool the not-really-informed-classical-music-buyers with these kind of quasi-familiar names. Conductors like Leonard Maag conducting some Festival Orchestra, or something like that.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 09, 2009, 01:40:35 PM
Quote from: Marc on August 09, 2009, 11:17:34 AM
Otto Winter is indeed a misleading tricky name, probably a combination of Helmut Winter and Hans Otto.

There was a not very prominent oboíst in W Germany (Frankfurt am Main or Köln based, I think) in the 1950es and 1960es named Otto Winter. He recorded some baroque music with Mainzer Kammerorchester / Günter Kehr. Perhaps he even played third oboe in Kehr´s recording of the First Brandenburg concerto for Vox 1958.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 01, 2009, 05:52:02 AM
New Olde - Reissues of Particular Interest:

J.S. Bach. Complete Organ Works. Ricercar (16 CDs? The last issue contained 18 CDs). Bernard Foccroulle. Budget reissue of this excellent set performed on historical North German organs.

http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvre-DOrgue-Integrale-Jean-Sebastien/dp/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251812596&sr=8-1

P.S.: I needed to add the second picture.  ;D

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 02, 2009, 02:17:35 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 01, 2009, 05:52:02 AM
New Olde - Reissues of Particular Interest:

J.S. Bach. Complete Organ Works. Ricercar (16 CDs? The last issue contained 18 CDs). Bernard Foccroulle. Budget reissue of this excellent set performed on historical North German organs.

http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvre-DOrgue-Integrale-Jean-Sebastien/dp/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251812596&sr=8-1

Thanks for the info!
Very good news. I only have a recent recording of him on the Groningen Martini organ, which is a fine one. I'll keep this reissue in mind!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 02, 2009, 02:49:37 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 01, 2009, 05:52:02 AM
New Olde - Reissues of Particular Interest:

J.S. Bach. Complete Organ Works. Ricercar (16 CDs? The last issue contained 18 CDs). Bernard Foccroulle. Budget reissue of this excellent set performed on historical North German organs.


Thanks for the information about this long waited rerelease. Even if I own about 45 % of the original release, I always wanted to hear the rest of the set.
   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on September 05, 2009, 04:23:36 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 01, 2009, 05:52:02 AM
P.S.: I needed to add the second picture.  ;D

Well now that I know that small Mongolian community approves I must have that album!!!  :P

Seriously though, that looks like a set worth considering.  Doesn't look available in the States yet, though...  :-\
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 05, 2009, 04:43:47 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on September 05, 2009, 04:23:36 PM
... that looks like a set worth considering.  Doesn't look available in the States yet, though...  :-\

Don't worry, Sorin. It's the situation even in Europe yet:

http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvre-DOrgue-Integrale-Jean-Sebastien/dp/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251812596&sr=8-1

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 19, 2009, 10:32:32 AM
Quote from: premont on September 19, 2009, 10:07:59 AM
Helmut Walchas Art of Fugue

Hi, Premont.

How many times recorded Walcha the AoF? I have been listening his mono set on Documents and I am very impressed with him.

My apologies to the lovers of the historical recordings, but for the first time in my life I have enjoyed some recording of the forties (1947). But that set does'n include the AoF. Are there more than one version?

Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 19, 2009, 01:10:43 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 19, 2009, 10:32:32 AM
How many times recorded Walcha the AoF? ...  Are there more than one version?

Unfortunately he only got the interest of the AoF rather late in his career, when he was in his late 40´es, and he recorded it only once. This was in 1956 for Archiv on the Hagbeer/FC Schnitger organ in Sct.Laurents Church in Alkmaar, NL. I think he realised, that he could not improve upon this recording. Also the recorded sound is good for its age, even if it was said, that this was DG´s first stereo recording ever. The engineer was the famous Erich Thiesenhaus. BTW Walcha often performed the work in the years to come, - my elder sister heard him perform it in München about 1967, and she was certainly impressed. The AoF is contained in his Stereo Bach integral, this is the reason why this set occupies 12 CDs, as opposed to the 10 CDs of the Mono integral. DG Archive has also released the AoF separately on two CDs in an improved mastering. Link to this:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Die-Kunst-der-Fuge-BWV-1080/hnum/8784091

Another firm (Idis) has also released his AoF on two CDs, but - as far as I been told - the sound of this release is somewhat distorted, since probably the LP Archiv rerelease from the late 1970´es was used as source material, and this set is unfortunately concerning the AoF (and rather unusual for Archiv) distorted in the loud passages. So avoid the Idis and get the Archiv release, if you do not acquire the entire Archiv Stereo set. This contains recordings fron 1956 and 1962 on the above mentioned organ, and recordings from around 1970 on the said Silbermann but in fact very much Alfred Kern organ in a church in Strassbourg, the name of which I do not recall at the moment (I am not in my home just now). On this organ he recorded the Leipzig-chorales, the Orgelbüchlein, Clavierübung III and other chorales as well as a smal part of the choral-free works, mostly the youthful works. I would say,that he got more Apollonian with time (you know, what I mean). This is also true of his rerecording for Archiv of the WTC from the early 1970es and even of his last recordings, the Organ masters before Bach (Buxtehude, Bruhns et.c.)- set from 1976, released 1977.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 19, 2009, 02:36:57 PM
Quote from: premont on September 19, 2009, 01:10:43 PM
Unfortunately he only got the interest of the AoF rather late in his career, when he was in his late 40´es, and he recorded it only once. This was in 1956 for Archiv on the Hagbeer/FC Schnitger organ in Sct.Laurents Church in Alkmaar, NL. I think he realised, that he could not improve upon this recording. Also the recorded sound is good for its age, even if it was said, that this was DG´s first stereo recording ever. The engineer was the famous Erich Thiesenhaus. BTW Walcha often performed the work in the years to come, - my elder sister heard him perform it in München about 1967, and she was certainly impressed. The AoF is contained in his Stereo Bach integral, this is the reason why this set occupies 12 CDs, as opposed to the 10 CDs of the Mono integral. DG Archive has also released the AoF separately on two CDs in an improved mastering. Link to this:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Die-Kunst-der-Fuge-BWV-1080/hnum/8784091

Another firm (Idis) has also released his AoF on two CDs, but - as far as I been told - the sound of this release is somewhat distorted, since probably the LP Archiv rerelease from the late 1970´es was used as source material, and this set is unfortunately concerning the AoF (and rather unusual for Archiv) distorted in the loud passages. So avoid the Idis and get the Archiv release, if you do not acquire the entire Archiv Stereo set. This contains recordings fron 1956 and 1962 on the above mentioned organ, and recordings from around 1970 on the said Silbermann but in fact very much Alfred Kern organ in a church in Strassbourg, the name of which I do not recall at the moment (I am not in my home just now). On this organ he recorded the Leipzig-chorales, the Orgelbüchlein, Clavierübung III and other chorales as well as a smal part of the choral-free works, mostly the youthful works. I would say,that he got more Apollonian with time (you know, what I mean). This is also true of his rerecording for Archiv of the WTC from the early 1970es and even of his last recordings, the Organ masters before Bach (Buxtehude, Bruhns et.c.)- set from 1976, released 1977.


Great reply, Premont.  :o

It's crystal clear now. You're my Bach guru!

I was confused because the Idis disc is dated 1956/52, ADD/m, on JPC. But probably the mono pieces are the Toccata & Fuge BWV 565 or the Passacaglia & Fuge BWV 582 or both of them, also included there.  

Thank you very, very much; my previous "thanks in advance" is totally insufficient.

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 19, 2009, 02:48:22 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 19, 2009, 02:36:57 PM
It's crystal clear now. You're my Bach guru!
I was confused because the Idis disc is dated 1956/52, ADD/m, on JPC. But probably the mono pieces are the Toccata & Fuge BWV 565 or the Passacaglia & Fuge BWV 582 or both of them, also included there.  

The rear side of the Isis release tells, that the BWV 565 is the Mono recording from 1947 (Stellwagen/Sct.Jacobi/Lübeck) and the BWV 582 is the Mono recording from 1952 (Schnitger/Sct. Peter and Paul/Cappel).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 19, 2009, 10:23:41 PM
Quote from: premont on September 19, 2009, 01:10:43 PM
I would say,that he got more Apollonian with time (you know, what I mean). .

I would say that his AoF is a bit Apollonian, even though it isn't so late. In fact, that's a feauture of it which rather puts me off-- If I want to hear it on organ I tend to reach for Rogg or Tachezi
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 20, 2009, 03:13:28 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 19, 2009, 10:23:41 PM
I would say that his AoF is a bit Apollonian, even though it isn't so late. In fact, that's a feauture of it which rather puts me off-- If I want to hear it on organ I tend to reach for Rogg or Tachezi

His style was somewhat apollonian from the beginning of his recording career, but it got more apollonian with time. Interesting though that you prefer Rogg and Tachezi, whose AoF I find at least as apollonian as Walchas AoF.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 20, 2009, 11:43:12 AM
Rogg seems more colourful.

Tachezi -- there's a sort of architecture. I can't really explain it but I always felt some sort of inevitability about the whole thing (sorry for the meaningless cliché.) Tachezi is my favourite.

I have always disliked Walcha in AoF -- it's one of those things. I always feel that he lacks grace and charisma, -- whenever I hear him I always think of Lurch playing the organ in the Addams family.

I appreciate that this is probably me rather than Walcha! Lots of people with good judgement seem to like him. Every so often I get the recording out and give it another go. One day I may find myself liking it.

Who is dionysian (on the organ) in this?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 20, 2009, 02:00:53 PM
Well, I know 32 organ recordings of the AoF, and I would call none of them dionysian.

Agree about the feeling of urgency and inner logic in Tachezi´s recording, but I find Walcha´s recording even stronger in that respect.

As to the colourfulness of Rogg: I think it depends more of the organ he uses. When his recording was released for the first time (LP ca 1973), Grammophone´s reviewer complained about the organ, which he thought was lacking in colour and character. Now I have heard this organ in the real life played by a number of great organists, and it is indeed a colourful organ with much character. But I do not find the sound of this modern neo-baroque organ  ideally suited for Bach. In that respect I find the Alkmaar organ stylistically better.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 21, 2009, 08:26:21 AM
Quote from: premont on September 20, 2009, 02:00:53 PM
Well, I know 32 organ recordings of the AoF, and I would call none of them dionysian.

Agree about the feeling of urgency and inner logic in Tachezi´s recording, but I find Walcha´s recording even stronger in that respect.

As to the colourfulness of Rogg: I think it depends more of the organ he uses. When his recording was released for the first time (LP ca 1973), Grammophone´s reviewer complained about the organ, which he thought was lacking in colour and character. Now I have heard this organ in the real life played by a number of great organists, and it is indeed a colourful organ with much character. But I do not find the sound of this modern neo-baroque organ  ideally suited for Bach. In that respect I find the Alkmaar organ stylistically better.


Amazing that the

I'm gonna give HW another go this week!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on October 03, 2009, 10:42:09 AM
Hi there, folks!
Having some major PC problems at home, now sending a message from outer space, the countryside of Groningen province, Netherlands.
Had a nice conclusion of the organ season today, by joining a In Memoriam Ewald Kooiman concert by organist Jan Luth on the Hinsz-organ in Leens.

Never heard this instrument live, but it surely was a great experience, although the church was bl.... cold.
Lots of Bach, and also pieces of the Manuscrit Susanne van Soldt, combined with choral singing of psalms and chorales.

Well, Kooiman has 'grown' to be my favourite Bach interpreter, and I think this concert was a decent and worthy farewell to him.
Afterwards we had a short talk with the organist, very technical stuff about meantone and well-tempered temperaments which I did not entirely understand (did not understand entirely?), and some laughter too.

That's all for now, folks!
Visiting my uncle and auntie, using their PC and drinking my auntie's nice coffee, I salute you!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on October 31, 2009, 09:17:40 AM
To day I have visited the homepage of the Dutch organist Aarnoud de Groen

http://www.aarnouddegroen.com/indexEn.htm

in order to listen to some of the Bach recordings, he has published there in the shape of downloadable MP3 files or as YouTube video´s. He is a most disciplined and informed musician with a considerable command of the organ. In the great chorale free works (BWV 543, 546 and 548 e.g) his tempi are fast (but not too fast - everything is well controlled) and he uses most often full and unvaried plenum sound.  All in all he reminds me a lot of the "young" Wolfgang Rübsam, as we know him from his 1977 Philips integral. So you ought to pay him (de Groen) a visit, - you will not regret.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on October 31, 2009, 10:19:19 AM
Thanks for the link, Premont. :) Listening to BWV 582 as I type.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 01, 2009, 09:23:43 AM
Another thanks here!

BTW, there's another Dutch organist who has just started with another Bach integral: Cor Ardesch.
His website is only in Dutch, though.

Two volumes have been produced by now:
http://www.corardesch.nl/bach2c_deel_1.html
http://www.corardesch.nl/cd27s.html

Maybe, if one's interested, it is possible to order these from abroad.
His mail-address is: info@corardesch.nl.

I have Volume 1, and it's good listening without a doubt.
I think he isn't an ancient music or Bach specialist, and if I would dare to mention a name for comparision, it would be .... a younger version of .... Piet Kee? ???
But I do this with lots of hesitation. Mr. Premont is far more 'auscultated' than I am. 0:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 01, 2009, 10:24:53 AM
And thanks here, Marc.
I have read so much Dutch during the last months, that I probably shall find out. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 01, 2009, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 01, 2009, 09:23:43 AM
I think he isn't an ancient music or Bach specialist, and if I would dare to mention a name for comparision, it would be .... a younger version of .... Piet Kee? ???

Well, the young Piet Kee was not that different from the old Piet Kee, if I am to judge from those of his Bach recordings I know from the 1960es (BWV 565 and 542 for His Masters Voice on the Schnitger/Alkmaar organ and BWV 546 for Telefunken - on the same organ IIRC). The general impression and impact was similar, with massive registrations and the interpretation a bit pedestrian. I find it difficult to imagine a young Piet Kee other than this.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 01, 2009, 02:51:13 PM
I must listen to Kee again, then.

But I think I have only the 'old' Kee at home.

BTW, I wrote younger version of Kee, which isn't the same as 'like the young Kee'. :)

I think I meant to say: Ardesch' playing is a bit similar (which conclusion could be my mistake :-[), but as he's younger than Kee he's more influenced by HIP-traditions.

Anyway, feel free to order a disc and judge for yourself. In his integral Ardesch is playing on a brand new organ in the Grote Kerk of Dordrecht. It was built with the Silbermann organ of Freiberg Cathedral in mind. Before Ardesch started his Dordrecht integral, he already recorded a Bach-disc in Freiberg:
http://www.corardesch.nl/freiberg.html

For those who are interested: maybe that's a nice one to start with.

Oh, and a special observation for opus106: this Freiberg recording has got a performance of BWV 582! :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on November 02, 2009, 02:34:58 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 01, 2009, 02:51:13 PM
Oh, and a special observation for opus106: this Freiberg recording has got a performance of BWV 582! :D

Duly noted. :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 02, 2009, 03:55:10 AM
Well, after some searching in my own house I found some Kee & Ardesch stuff. :D
Reading a booklet learned me (probably again) that Ardesch was a pupil of Kee. Maybe this 'knowledge' was somewhere way back on my personal hard-disk yesterday evening (the one in between my ears).

Speaking about ears: I entered the night with Bach & Piet Kee. Had not listened to this one for months.
http://www.jsbach.org/keepietkeeplaysbachvol1.html

Well, I have to say that it was somehow tiring to listen to it. Like the 'old' Rübsam (Naxos) he's slowing down from time to time, but I do not know what he wants to achieve with that. Rübsam gives the impression that he wants the time to be stopped .... and who doesn't, when one listens to Bach? With Kee, this effect isn't achieved, IMHO. In the end, especially in the chorales, I would call his way of playing rather shredded.

I began this day with Bach & Cor Ardesch (the Freiberg disc).
Indeed, his playing is far more organic than Kee, although there's also some stiffness and inflexibility (the 'famous' Dutch protestantic influence?).
To some, the recording might be too spatial, but I got used to it rather quickly.

If I had to choose, I'd certainly go for Ardesch.
I liked his BWV 582. He's opting for the 'romantic' construction: soft and mild at the start, and then building to a climax, with the fugue entirely pleno.
Personally, I begin to value the pleno from the beginning more and more, but I still fully enjoy this 'romantic' interpretation. For instance: I've always liked Rogg (EMI) and Power Biggs (CBS/Sony) in this masterpiece. Apparently Ardesch is sharing their vision.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 02, 2009, 03:52:28 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 02, 2009, 03:55:10 AM
Speaking about ears: I entered the night with Bach & Piet Kee. Had not listened to this one for months.
http://www.jsbach.org/keepietkeeplaysbachvol1.html

Well, I have to say that it was somehow tiring to listen to it. Like the 'old' Rübsam (Naxos) he's slowing down from time to time, but I do not know what he wants to achieve with that. Rübsam gives the impression that he wants the time to be stopped .... and who doesn't, when one listens to Bach? With Kee, this effect isn't achieved, IMHO. In the end, especially in the chorales, I would call his way of playing rather shredded.

Personally, I begin to value the pleno (BWV 582) from the beginning more and more, but I still fully enjoy this 'romantic' interpretation. For instance: I've always liked Rogg (EMI) and Power Biggs (CBS/Sony) in this masterpiece.

Interesting considerations, and once more I think I share your views. Shall listen to Kee a bit more in the nearest future.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 16, 2009, 03:03:10 PM
Listening to Bach's Fantasia & Fugue in g minor, BWV 542. Played by a very young Bernard Foccroulle at the Schonat/Hagerbeer organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam, june 1984.
Originally released on 2LP, as part 2 of Foccroulle's Bach integral. Reissued on cd (along with BWV 565, 730/731, 718, 727 and 645-650) as Ricercar RIC 026006. Since long OOP, I guess. Got it in da house thanks to ... the good old-fashioned library!

Mind you: I think that some of these works have been replaced for the 'new' Bach integral of Foccroulle, reissued this autumn, and (shortly) discussed some time ago.

http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvre-DOrgue-Integrale-Jean-Sebastien/dp/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251812596&sr=8-1

Young or 'old', I think that this Belgian organist is very much worthwhile as a Bach interpreter. Maybe his playing was a bit more 'stubborn' before his hair turned .... white.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 24, 2009, 07:56:07 AM
A short link to La grande Dame de l'Orgue, Marie-Claire Alain.
Playing the Agricola/Schnitger/Hinsz/et cetera organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL (fragment from BWV 542) and in the end giving us a nice summary of Bach's skills:

http://www.floridahurricane.net/videos/video/gq9_NH8BRvE&feature=youtube_gdata
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 24, 2009, 12:43:22 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 16, 2009, 03:03:10 PM
Listening to Bach's Fantasia & Fugue in g minor, BWV 542. Played by a very young Bernard Foccroulle at the Schonat/Hagerbeer organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam, june 1984.
Mind you: I think that some of these works have been replaced for the 'new' Bach integral of Foccroulle, reissued this autumn, and (shortly) discussed some time ago.

Fortunately I got hold of this recording from Nieuwe Kerk/Amsterdam, before it went OOP. I like this more than the re-recording made in St.Martini/Groningen. His playing seems to have become a little more conventional.  But both are indeed good, and I appreciate the fine recorded sound of these two important organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 24, 2009, 12:59:42 PM
Right now listening to the very rich organ sound of the Albertin organ at l'Église de Saint-Louis en l'Île, Paris. It's played, in a colourful way, by Benjamin Alard.
I think I will never get tired of Bach's Trio Sonatas! And this disc is a pleasure to listen to!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BK5g4fgxL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on November 25, 2009, 10:01:55 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 24, 2009, 07:56:07 AM
A short link to La grande Dame de l'Orgue, Marie-Claire Alain.
Playing the Agricola/Schnitger/Hinsz/et cetera organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL (fragment from BWV 542) and in the end giving us a nice summary of Bach's skills:

http://www.floridahurricane.net/videos/video/gq9_NH8BRvE&feature=youtube_gdata

Thank you, Marc, for that nice video. (I do wonder, though, about why it is posted on a website about hurricanes in Florida.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 26, 2009, 05:37:26 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 25, 2009, 10:01:55 PM
Thank you, Marc, for that nice video. (I do wonder, though, about why it is posted on a website about hurricanes in Florida.)

I stopped wondering some time ago, when Internet is concerned. ;)

But it might have been collected by a Floridan music lover, who has his/her own website and found it on YouTube.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 01, 2009, 12:21:12 PM
Quote from: premont on November 24, 2009, 12:43:22 PM
Fortunately I got hold of this recording from Nieuwe Kerk/Amsterdam, before it went OOP. I like this more than the re-recording made in St.Martini/Groningen. His playing seems to have become a little more conventional.  But both are indeed good, and I appreciate the fine recorded sound of these two important organs.

Well, this is an historic event!
I disagree with you. :'(

Well, not entirely: I like both performances, too. But in his younger days Foccroulle's style is a bit too 'snappish' and abrupt for my likings. Although he never gets hurried and panting, like Preston does once in a while.

Right now this sinner is listening to Wolfgang Zerer playing Ach was soll ich, Sünder, machen? at the Hinsz-organ of the Petruskerk in Leens, NL.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Organ-Influences-Buxtehude-Bachakademie/dp/B00004TKEI

Another disc that I don't regret having! (Though it's 'only' a copy from the library.)
I would describe his playing as being kinda severe in his interpretation, but also expressive when necessary and colourful in his registering.

In fact, this is a description that could also fit Bram Beekman, so this would mean that I should rate Zerer rather high. ;) I even dare say that in some of the non-liturgic works Zerer is more rhythmically convincing!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 05, 2009, 11:28:54 PM
Quote from: listener on December 05, 2009, 06:49:04 PM
BACH the 6 organ (trio) sonatas BWV 525-530, (Marie-Claire Alain at l'Église Saint-Hilaire de Näfels (Swiss)   

Quote from: Coopmv on December 05, 2009, 07:16:29 PM
I probably have close to 70% of Marie Claire-Alain CD singles on the original Erato label that made up her second Bach Complete Organ Works set.  I am just waiting for her third Bach Complete Organ Works set to be re-issued so I can grab it ...

We discussed some time ago on this M-C Alain's disc and the conclusions were the following:

It is not a part of her integral recordings. It is a single disc recorded between her second and third integral (digital recording). Alain plays there the organ at the Église Saint-Hilaire de Nafels, Glaris, Switzerland. It was recorded on September, 1984.

On the other hand, the trio sonatas disc included in the M-C Alain second integral –at least the disc originally included there- was recorded on the Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France (analogue recording). I do not know the recording date because is not provided with my set, but that complete set was recorded between May 1978 and April 1980. Apparently, the original set included 21 LPs.

Although perhaps at some point Erato replaced with that digital recording the original one included in the second integral. Is it possible?  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 06, 2009, 01:57:18 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 05, 2009, 11:28:54 PM
On the other hand, the trio sonatas disc included in the M-C Alain second integral –at least the disc originally included there- was recorded on the Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France (analogue recording). I do not know the recording date because is not provided with my set, but that complete set was recorded between May 1978 and April 1980. Apparently, the original set included 21 LPs.
The precise recording dates were not even published in the notes to the original 21 LP set, which I still keep.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 05, 2009, 11:28:54 PM
Although perhaps at some point Erato replaced with that digital recording the original one included in the second integral. Is it possible?  :)
Probably not. I have never seen the Näfels recording constituting a part of a complete set. But I know, that the second integral was rereleased on CD between 10 and 15 years ago, and I do not know whethe the Náfels recording was included in this or not, but I do not think so, since the second recent CD release of the set includes the Schwenkedel recording.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 06, 2009, 02:14:41 AM
Quote from: premont on December 06, 2009, 01:57:18 AM
The precise recording dates were not even published in the notes to the original 21 LP set, which I still keep.
Probably not. I have never seen the Näfels recording constituting a part of a complete set. But I know, that the second integral was rereleased on CD between 10 and 15 years ago, and I do not know whethe the Náfels recording was included in this or not, but I do not think so, since the second recent CD release of the set includes the Schwenkedel recording.
The second integral hasn't changed (as far as the Trio Sonatas are concerned: Schwenkedel) and is still available, at least in Europe.

I'm afraid that the 'in-between' recording (Näfels) is OOP. Though internet or library searching can provide a solution to that problem of course.

For example:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Sonates-525-530/dp/B000LCIWL6
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 06, 2009, 02:31:31 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 06, 2009, 02:14:41 AM
I'm afraid that the 'in-between' recording (Näfels) is OOP. Though internet or library searching can provide a solution to that problem of course.

For example:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Sonates-525-530/dp/B000LCIWL6

But this is only for completists. I do not think the Näfels recording adds much to the Schwenkedel recording, and if one also has got the Aa Kerk recording (third integral) one is very well-assorted as to M C Alain / Bach Triosonatas.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 06, 2009, 03:04:38 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 06, 2009, 02:36:56 AM
Well, I have ALL THREE of them. :P

Well, I have heard even more Bach Triosonatas / Alain,  since I once owned part of her first integral on Danish organs (LP only). Historically interesting, but from an artistic point of view nothing to write home about, so I  parted with them long time ago. Thanks to my ever since growing completism I would not have done this to day. The Triosonatas were recorded 1959 on the Marcussen organ, Varde IIRC.  Also I have heard her at recital (Andersen organ, Vor Frelsers Kirke/ Copenhagen) playing the Es-dur Sonata.  But all in all I prefer the Schwenkedel recording, the Aa recording being a strong contender.  Ideally she should have recorded the works on the Aa organ about ten years earlier, but this might have been before the latest restoring of this organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 06, 2009, 03:55:09 AM
Quote from: premont on December 06, 2009, 03:04:38 AM
Well, I have heard even more Bach Triosonatas / Alain,  since I once owned part of her first integral on Danish organs (LP only).
:P

Quote from: premont
Ideally she should have recorded the works on the Aa organ about ten years earlier, but this might have been before the latest restoring of this organ.
The organ was replaced in 1990, if I'm not mistaken, after about 12 or 13 years after the removal (because of collapsing danger).
In 1997 the organ was removed again, for a complete restoration. But this complete restoration still has to be completed. So far, it's been nothing but a story of furious discussions and fights about the way it should be restored. Maybe the job will be finished in 2011.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 07, 2009, 01:26:26 PM
Listening to Walter Kraft right now.

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/f63fd369fc.jpg) (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Not a bad purchase for € 5.
Less convincing in phrasing and articulation as f.i. the immortal Helmut Walcha, but this disc is certainly not disfiguring my collection. ;)
The recording sound is a bit glassy, though. It sometimes reminded me of the slick stereo sound of the Beatles' Capitol LP's. ::)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 07, 2009, 02:34:00 PM
Over the years I've heard many various organs and organists. Right now my taste runs toward players such as Vernet, Isoir and Chapuis. I like the balance of majesty and impetus, of  heartiness and brilliance they find in Bach. Not to my taste so far are most of the german and dutch players (Koopman, Leonhardt, Tachezi, Richter). Personally I've always found MC Alain to be a rather dull player. I heard her in concert a few times, and have heard quite a few of her records. She invariably comes across as rather too level-headed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on December 07, 2009, 02:39:48 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 07, 2009, 02:34:00 PM
Over the years I've heard many various organs and organists. Right now my taste runs toward players such as Vernet, Isoir and Chapuis. I like the balance of majesty and impetus, of  heartiness and brilliance they find in Bach. Not to my taste so far are most of the german and dutch players (Koopman, Leonhardt, Tachezi, Richter).

It's interesting that you favor French organists for a German's organ music.  Your tastes are clearly different than mine, but that's the way the world turns.  I do agree with you about Alain.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 07, 2009, 04:19:15 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 07, 2009, 02:39:48 PM
It's interesting that you favor French organists for a German's organ music.  Your tastes are clearly different than mine, but that's the way the world turns.  I do agree with you about Alain.

I know, it looks like I'm biased, doesn't it? Well, I probably am. But my my bias is more against rythmic rigidity and an emotional palette that seems to alternate between austerity and a refusal of the sensuality inherent in this music. Chapuis is effervescent and buoyant, Isoir blends sweetness and majesty, Vernet has passion and an ability to dazzle without vulgarity. Vernet has one of the most dependable pair of hands and feet in the industry.

Their knowledge of the french organ repertoire obviously informs their playing with a sense of colour that is not really in the northern players' armoury. That being said, the world of organ playing is one of the most cosmopolitan of any instrument. Players travel around the world (where the instruments are), discovering new sounds and different styles of playing (no organist will play a Bach toccata or choral prelude the same way on two different-sounding instruments). In a sense, the cross-pollination ought to produce a similarity of results, but surprisingly, that is not the same. I think the world of the organ is one of the most 'grounded' of any instrument. It's all about tradition. Organ tenures normally last a whole player's carreer, and they seem to live long lives.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on December 07, 2009, 04:52:56 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 07, 2009, 04:19:15 PM
I know, it looks like I'm biased, doesn't it? Well, I probably am. But my my bias is more against rythmic rigidity and an emotional palette that seems to alternate between austerity and a refusal of the sensuality inherent in this music.

Leaving nationality aside, I have a different take on it.  There's plenty of austerity in Bach's organ works, and I want the full measure of it.  When I get full measure, the contrast with the "sweeter" and more optimistic side of Bach is more compelling.  That's why organists like Rubsam, Weinberger and Marcon are among my favorites.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 07, 2009, 05:39:02 PM
I don't think it's a question of nationality, except maybe tangentially. But then again, you seldom hear german-austrian-dutch-scandinavian organists play Couperin, Marchand or Daquin.  Conversely, the german repertoire (from Pachelbel to Bach, to Krebs, to Buxtehude) is an integral part of every organist - even italian ones!

I'm not saying there's a lack of breadth and scope from the saxon-germans, but you'll seldom hear them play french or italian baroque (they don't have the proper instruments for a start), or the french symphonic organ repertoire. Mind you, french and italian organists rarely venture on the english or scandinavian coasts either. There's a lot of great stuff from those countries (England and Sweden for example), that seem to be the province of the locals, so... I think it reinforces my belief of the instrument,  its terroir and their long line of local exponents as prime movers in an organist's interests.

I know it's a bit off subject, but what do others think of Otto Olsson's organ music? For my money, he wrote the best organ music in the last century. Ahead of Reger, actually...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on December 07, 2009, 07:53:41 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 07, 2009, 05:39:02 PM

I know it's a bit off subject, but what do others think of Otto Olsson's organ music? For my money, he wrote the best organ music in the last century. Ahead of Reger, actually...

I have Olsson's organ music on Swedish Society - play it now and then but can't say I'm very impressed.  Reger's organ music I find more interesting.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 08, 2009, 05:14:22 AM
Well, mon ami Lilas Pastia, when one is from près des remparts de Seville, a certain southern preference is no real surprise! ;)

Since Bach is mainly the issue in this thread, I can only say that of your Triptych I wasn't impressed by Chapuis. In fact, it was a disappointing experience. Which, for me, is a rare occasion. The only other real disappointment was American Michael Murray.

I like Isoir, indeed because of his combination of poetry and power, but my favourite of those three is definitely Olivier Vernet. 'His' Bach certainly is a young man's passionate approach!

On two of the four 'German & Dutch' names that were mentioned I would like to say this:
Ton Koopman certainly likes to play French and Italian baroque, also in live organ or harpsichord concerts. But he's done some recording stuff, too:
http://www.tonkoopman.nl/discoblackned.htm

Gustav Leonhardt has recorded, and not only as a keyboard player, f.i. Rameau, Couperin, Frescobaldi, Monteverdi et al. He's got a rather broad taste, although he dislikes G.F. Handel very very much. :-\
Here's a nice example of Leonhardt with a.o. Marchand and Couperin:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lorgue-Bedos-Sainte-Croix-Bordeaux-Leonhardt/dp/B00005S0ME

I can't tell that much about Tachezi and Richter, who aren't really my favourite organists. I have some Tachezi playing Mozart somewhere in my collection .... but how often do I listen to it? :P

One should not forget the influence of the recording labels: once a musician has made a name as a [composer's name]-interpret, in many cases the labels want this to be continued and exploit that image. But in most live concerts the artists are able to choose whatever they want to play.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 08, 2009, 11:11:48 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 07, 2009, 07:53:41 PM
I have Olsson's organ music on Swedish Society - play it now and then but can't say I'm very impressed.  Reger's organ music I find more interesting.

I can certainly understand that. Olsson is a very undemonstrative composer. Lots of meditative stuff, never anything flashy. It can easily put one to sleep, I suppose  ::). It doesn't have the architectural solidity of Reger. Typical church musician compositions I think. He served as church organist for 50 years at Gustav Vasa Church, Stockholm. Here is what he said about himself: "I am conservative. I do not write much anymore, as my music does not suit our time any longer. I do not understand the new music - it has gone too far. And this applies to new church music, too, which puts stilization before inspiration".

I wonder if he was referring to Messiaen, here...? I think he can best be likened to Tournemire and maybe Langlais. He also wrote some very beautiful choral music. I have 3 discs of his music (Proprius, Musica Sveciae and BIS - no Swedish Society!)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 08, 2009, 11:43:55 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 08, 2009, 05:14:22 AM
Well, mon ami Lilas Pastia, when one is from près des remparts de Seville, a certain southern preference is no real surprise! ;)

Since Bach is mainly the issue in this thread, I can only say that of your Triptych I wasn't impressed by Chapuis. In fact, it was a disappointing experience. Which, for me, is a rare occasion. The only other real disappointment was American Michael Murray.

I like Isoir, indeed because of his combination of poetry and power, but my favourite of those three is definitely Olivier Vernet. 'His' Bach certainly is a young man's passionate approach!

On two of the four 'German & Dutch' names that were mentioned I would like to say this:
Ton Koopman certainly likes to play French and Italian baroque, also in live organ or harpsichord concerts. But he's done some recording stuff, too:
http://www.tonkoopman.nl/discoblackned.htm

Gustav Leonhardt has recorded, and not only as a keyboard player, f.i. Rameau, Couperin, Frescobaldi, Monteverdi et al. He's got a rather broad taste, although he dislikes G.F. Handel very very much. :-\
Here's a nice example of Leonhardt with a.o. Marchand and Couperin:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lorgue-Bedos-Sainte-Croix-Bordeaux-Leonhardt/dp/B00005S0ME

I can't tell that much about Tachezi and Richter, who aren't really my favourite organists. I have some Tachezi playing Mozart somewhere in my collection .... but how often do I listen to it? :P

One should not forget the influence of the recording labels: once a musician has made a name as a [composer's name]-interpret, in many cases the labels want this to be continued and exploit that image. But in most live concerts the artists are able to choose whatever they want to play.

I think Chapuis is the most controversial of the lot. Thanks for the Leonhardt link,  I was not aware he had recorded the Convent Mass. In theory the organ chosen should be quite suited to the task - it has some lovely reedy stops. But it doesn't sound  as characterful as the southwestern organs of Carcassone or Saint-Maximin. I'll keep an eye on that one...

Back to Bach: there's a lively organ tradiiton here in Montreal, with instruments by von Beckerath, Casavant and Wolff among others. I used to be a regular at the many concerts. But IMO our organ roster has too long been dominated by players who favour a rather ascetic playing style (rythmically rigid), associated with thick registrations: Lagacé (husband and wife), Laberge, etc. IOW the make bach sound dull and antiquated.

Last year Olivier Latry was in town. He played mostly french symphonic organ music (as well he should have, playing on a Casavant instrument), as well as more contemporary stuff (Messiaen and Escaich). But he delighted me in his playing of a Bach piece (sinfonia from Canatata 29). All the colour and freshness were suddenly there. I hope he some day devotes a full disc to Bach's music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on December 08, 2009, 12:19:11 PM
Overall, I don't think it's a great idea to get caught up in the nationality of the organist.  It makes no difference to me whether the performer hails from France, Germany, Sweden, America or the Moon. 

This is a matter of preconceptions, and I feel it's best to leave those at the door.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 08, 2009, 03:26:25 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 08, 2009, 12:19:11 PM
Overall, I don't think it's a great idea to get caught up in the nationality of the organist.  It makes no difference to me whether the performer hails from France, Germany, Sweden, America or the Moon. 
;D

Quote from: Bulldog
This is a matter of preconceptions, and I feel it's best to leave those at the door.
Sure, but of course these countries/regions deliver a lot of musicians who are part of a cultural and/or musical tradition.
Generalizing can be helpful to make a quick survey, but in the end it's only a makeshift.
So I agree: as a listening music lover, one should at least try one's best not to think of nationalities or traditions, whilst listening.

Post scriptum: Bulldog, like your avatar today! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 08, 2009, 03:52:40 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 08, 2009, 11:43:55 AM
Thanks for the Leonhardt link, I was not aware he had recorded the Convent Mass.
[....]
Last year Olivier Latry was in town. [....]
I hope he some day devotes a full disc to Bach's music.
And thank you for reminding me of Latry, who in fact did devote some discs to Bach. He recorded at least 7 discs (Vols. 1-7) of a supposed (?) integral for the label Sound BNL. But I think they are officially OOP.
Here's one example (Vol. 7) at the German Amazon site:
http://www.amazon.de/Die-Triosonaten-Bwv-525-530-UK/dp/B0006HH7EE

And here's a Latry sampler, with works of other composers, too:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Olivier-Latry-belles-pages-discographie/dp/B0001P2JCQ

I myself will check the music library catalogue here this month, and search if there's still one of his Bach discs available. Maybe there's a library in Montréal or elsewhere in Canada who's got some, too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 09, 2009, 03:35:38 PM
Quote from: Marc on December 08, 2009, 03:52:40 PM
And thank you for reminding me of Latry, who in fact did devote some discs to Bach. He recorded at least 7 discs (Vols. 1-7) of a supposed (?) integral for the label Sound BNL. But I think they are officially OOP.
Here's one example (Vol. 7) at the German Amazon site:
http://www.amazon.de/Die-Triosonaten-Bwv-525-530-UK/dp/B0006HH7EE

And here's a Latry sampler, with works of other composers, too:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Olivier-Latry-belles-pages-discographie/dp/B0001P2JCQ

I myself will check the music library catalogue here this month, and search if there's still one of his Bach discs available. Maybe there's a library in Montréal or elsewhere in Canada who's got some, too.

Well, those trio sonatas (vol. 7) are currently available on JPC (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Triosonaten-BWV-525-530/hnum/6550729)

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 09, 2009, 04:58:39 PM
Quote from: Marc on December 08, 2009, 03:52:40 PM
And thank you for reminding me of Latry, who in fact did devote some discs to Bach. He recorded at least 7 discs (Vols. 1-7) of a supposed (?) integral for the label Sound BNL. But I think they are officially OOP.
Here's one example (Vol. 7) at the German Amazon site:
http://www.amazon.de/Die-Triosonaten-Bwv-525-530-UK/dp/B0006HH7EE

And here's a Latry sampler, with works of other composers, too:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Olivier-Latry-belles-pages-discographie/dp/B0001P2JCQ

I myself will check the music library catalogue here this month, and search if there's still one of his Bach discs available. Maybe there's a library in Montréal or elsewhere in Canada who's got some, too.

Thanks, Marc, I really had no idea Latry had recorded so much Bach (not knowing the details, but 7 discs is a half integral anyway !!).

I'll try to keep an eye - and ear! - on these. Esp. the trio sonatas, which are favourite works - I got to 'learn' them through Chapuis, BTW, in those blessed days of Telefunken Bach Edition mammoth LP releases - 2 vinyl discs in a lavish presentation (with scores, which I have kept !!). That was volume one (with assorted minor works). I also got volume 7 (Preludes and Fugues). That might explain my fondness for Chapuis' Bach  ;D. After him - and, in  a totally different aesthetic, Karl Richter - I ventured into the HM Rogg integral. Six LPs, which 30 years ago cost me 72$ - believe me, I still  recall it vividly (I was afraid my Visa purchase would be refused :-[) . Big letdown in a sense (very unflashy playing), but over the years it made me appreciate the 'spiritual' side of Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2009, 10:55:13 PM
More Latry:
Präludien & Fugen BWV 534, 535, 543 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Pr%E4ludien-Fugen-BWV-534-535-543/hnum/6737708)
http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/3491421128362.jpg (http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/3491421128362.jpg)

Choräle BWV 645-650 "Schübler-Choräle" (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Chor%E4le-BWV-645-650-Sch%FCbler-Chor%E4le/hnum/6527396)


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 10, 2009, 04:01:57 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 09, 2009, 04:58:39 PM
[....]
I'll try to keep an eye - and ear! - on these. Esp. the trio sonatas, which are favourite works - I got to 'learn' them through Chapuis, BTW, in those blessed days of Telefunken Bach Edition mammoth LP releases - 2 vinyl discs in a lavish presentation (with scores, which I have kept !!). That was volume one (with assorted minor works). I also got volume 7 (Preludes and Fugues). That might explain my fondness for Chapuis' Bach ;D.

Say no more.
First love.
They can last a lifetime.
0:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 10, 2009, 05:24:19 PM
Quote from: Marc on December 10, 2009, 04:01:57 PM
Say no more.
First love.
They can last a lifetime.
0:)

:D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 10, 2009, 05:25:36 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 09, 2009, 10:55:13 PM
More Latry:
Präludien & Fugen BWV 534, 535, 543 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Pr%E4ludien-Fugen-BWV-534-535-543/hnum/6737708)
http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/3491421128362.jpg (http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/3491421128362.jpg)

Choräle BWV 645-650 "Schübler-Choräle" (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Chor%E4le-BWV-645-650-Sch%FCbler-Chor%E4le/hnum/6527396)

Thanks, Jens - more discs on the wish list!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 10:14:05 AM
Best Bach boxset of organ works to start building collection out from...................
Is it the stereo Walcha/Archiv boxset or something else.........

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519klTAnE-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 13, 2009, 11:02:36 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 10:14:05 AM
Best Bach boxset of organ works to start building collection out from...................
Is it the stereo Walcha/Archiv boxset or something else.........

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519klTAnE-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

You might as well choose f.i. Foccroulle, Vernet, Alain or Weinberger. All are interpretations on a high level, It depends upon your taste, which I do not know. But at a certain point Walcha becomes mandatory listening for the engaged lover of Bachs organ music. But then I would consider his mono integral preferable to his stereo.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 11:32:12 AM
Premont
Is there a noticeble drop in sound quality when going with the mono Walcha?
Did his style change much for later stereo set?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 13, 2009, 11:39:06 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 11:32:12 AM
Premont
Is there a noticeble drop in sound quality when going with the mono Walcha?
Did his style change much for later stereo set?

There is a change, but not kind of deleterious . The mono sound is very good for its time.

Yes, Walchas style changed a little, the earlier version being generally more expressive.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 11:45:50 AM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 11:39:06 AM
There is a change, but not kind of deleterious . The mono sound is very good for its time.

Yes, Walchas style changed a little, the earlier version being generally more expressive.

Agree.  I enjoyed Walcha's mono set on Document last Christmas so much that I did some damage to one of my bookshelves.  My fault anyway since I have had a mismatch in the sound system in my study when I used a 240 watts/ch Conrad-Johnson power amp driving a 200 watts max Soliloquy bookshelves.  The wireless remote got stuck and unleashed a sudden burst of power during some peak passage in one of the organ pieces.

I have yet to take the somewhat impaired speaker to the shop for a checkup ...
:(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 12:13:26 PM
Great info gents...........

Should any serious thought be given to the Preston/DG & Hurford/Decca complete sets, or are they a notch below those mentioned above by Premont?

Coop........the deep bass response of these big organs is pretty impressive, speakers given real workout
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on December 13, 2009, 12:18:18 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 12:13:26 PM
Great info gents...........

Should any serious thought be given to the Preston/DG & Hurford/Decca complete sets, or are they a notch below those mentioned above by Premont?

Hurford maybe - Preston no.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 12:19:29 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 12:13:26 PM
Great info gents...........

Should any serious thought be given to the Preston/DG & Hurford/Decca complete sets, or are they a notch below those mentioned above by Premont?

Coop........the deep bass response of these big organs is pretty impressive, speakers given real workout

I have most of the Preston's single CD's and all the Hurford's CD's as singles again.  IIRC, Hurford's performance was somewhat on the romantic side.

Yeah, watch out if you have an amplifier and speakers mismatch - either too much or too little power will damage your speakers ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 13, 2009, 12:48:20 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 12:13:26 PM
Should any serious thought be given to the Preston/DG & Hurford/Decca complete sets, or are they a notch below those mentioned above by Premont?

IMO Simon Preston splashes or rather surfs through many of the chorale free pieces in a very insensitive way. Though the Vivaldi arrangements are rather efficient, and the Triosonatas are most beautiful and playful, and many of the Chorales (espec. Orgelbüchlein and Clavierübung III can not be faulted as to expressivity. He uses some interesting if mostly modern organs, among which are the restored Wagner organ, Nidaros Dom, and the Marcussen organs, Sorø and Dom zu Lübeck.

Peter Hurford plays in a "true to the score" and more legato style, common in the 1960es-70es. And like Wolfgang Stockmeier he gains with repeated listening.

But all in all I would not recommend either Preston, Hurford, Stockmeier (and not even Walcha) for someone not too familiar with the works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 01:14:00 PM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 12:48:20 PM
But all in all I would not recommend either Preston, Hurford, Stockmeier (and not even Walcha) for someone not too familiar with the works.

If a complete set is a right idea for introductory purposes - I won't argue that idea-, IMO the best "introduction" would be Christoph Herrick on Hyperion: informed performances, beautiful neo-baroque organs, great sound quality. Anyway, one prevention: I have noticed certain preference of DA for "passionate" performances and this is not the case with Herrick.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 01:31:50 PM
I hope to finish at least the Walcha stereo set and get started with the Weinberger set over the Christmas holidays/vacation.  My Ton Koopman set just arrived late last week ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 01:41:28 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 01:14:00 PM
If a complete set is a right idea for introductory purposes - I won't argue that idea-, IMO the best "introduction" would be Christoph Herrick on Hyperion: informed performances, beautiful neo-baroque organs, great sound quality. Anyway, one prevention: I have noticed certain preference of DA for "passionate" performances and this is not the case with Herrick.  :)

You are right about that preference.......... ;)

I will probably get the Foccroulle set mentioned previously by Premont (and I believe a favorite of A.M.)
Also the mono Walcha is incredibly cheap (under $20) so I will take a flyer on that.......


Currently listening to a 2CD Hurford/Decca set that I like, but have little to compare it to
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 13, 2009, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 01:14:00 PM
If a complete set is a right idea for introductory purposes - I won't argue that idea-, IMO the best "introduction" would be Christoph Herrick on Hyperion: informed performances, beautiful neo-baroque organs, great sound quality. Anyway, one prevention: I have noticed certain preference of DA for "passionate" performances and this is not the case with Herrick.  :)

Yes, Herrick is a tad too "tame" -  also to some others than DA, I think.
Bach in tail-coat. ;)

But for the average listener I think M-C Alain´s second set is the best solution, whereas I tend to find Vernet´s set the most suited for DA, - or maybe the Fagius set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 01:57:53 PM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 01:45:46 PM
Yes, Herrick is a tad too "tame" -  also to some others than DA, I think.
Bach in tail-coat. ;)
I like the well-mannered, kind people; you know my problems with Beethoven, for instance.  ;)

Anyway, I agree, there are great moments in Herrick, but he is a civilized British gentleman.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 02:05:39 PM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 01:45:46 PM
Yes, Herrick is a tad too "tame" -  also to some others than DA, I think.
Bach in tail-coat. ;)

But for the average listener I think M-C Alain´s second set is the best solution, whereas I tend to find Vernet´s set the most suited for DA, - or maybe the Fagius set.

I have a set of Sweelinck's Organ Works by Herrick but have no intention to get his Bach Complete Organ Works ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 02:07:05 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 01:41:28 PM
You are right about that preference.......... ;)

I will probably get the Foccroulle set mentioned previously by Premont (and I believe a favorite of A.M.)

It is true I like very much Froccoulle's discs; but he is a very introverted performer and, probably, you should consider that fact too. Walcha's mono set is beyond good and evil.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 13, 2009, 02:12:00 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 01:57:53 PM
I like the well-mannered, kind people; you know my problems with Beethoven, for instance.  ;)

This is why I would expect you to have serious problems with Ton Koopman´s organ playing.    ;) :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 02:12:38 PM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 01:45:46 PM
Yes, Herrick is a tad too "tame" -  also to some others than DA, I think.
Bach in tail-coat. ;)
But for the average listener I think M-C Alain´s second set is the best solution, whereas I tend to find Vernet´s set the most suited for DA, - or maybe the Fagius set.

Wait the Fagius/Brilliant Classics sounds like a winner from short samples, formerly issued as 2CD BIS label releases at $40 each! The complete Brilliant set much much lower now, this looks like my starting point (plus the mono Walcha)  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 13, 2009, 02:16:56 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 02:05:39 PM
I have a set of Sweelinck's Organ Works by Herrick but have no intention to get his Bach Complete Organ Works ...

Yes, two really charming CDs, not the least because of the meantone tuned modern built period style organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 02:21:15 PM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 02:12:00 PM
This is why I would expect you to have serious problems with Ton Koopman´s organ playing.    ;) :)

But what is wrong with Ton Koopman's organ playing?  I have the new set by him from Presto Classic sitting right next to me.  I also enjoy most works by Beethoven.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 13, 2009, 02:21:29 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 02:12:38 PM
Wait the Fagius/Brilliant Classics sounds like a winner from short samples, formerly issued as 2CD BIS label releases at $40 each! The complete Brilliant set much much lower now, this looks like my starting point (plus the mono Walcha)  :)

You can not go wrong with these, so far the music interests you.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 13, 2009, 02:23:02 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 02:21:15 PM
But what is wrong with Ton Koopman's organ playing? 

It is far from well-mannered, this Bach set not the least.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 02:24:29 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 02:12:38 PM
Wait the Fagius/Brilliant Classics sounds like a winner from short samples, formerly issued as 2CD BIS label releases at $40 each! The complete Brilliant set much much lower now, this looks like my starting point (plus the mono Walcha)  :)

I know someone who loves Hans Fagius' playing of Bach organ works.  He has the SACD set.  I have Fagius' set by way of the mammoth 155-CD BC Bach set ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 02:25:57 PM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 02:12:00 PM
This is why I would expect you to have serious problems with Ton Koopman´s organ playing.    ;) :)

Yes, that's generally the case with Koopman as a keyboardist, although he is another story conducting vocal music. But when he takes his medicine on time, he can be fantastic: I am thinking, for example, in those superb Leipzig chorales –with sung chorales- performed on the organ of the Grote Kerk, Leeuwarden... Probably the human voice has a peace effect over him.  8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 13, 2009, 02:36:47 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 02:25:57 PM
although he is another story conducting vocal music. But when he takes his medicine on time, he can be fantastic:... Probably the human voice has a peace effect over him.  8)

Would you go so far as to recommend his recordings of the passions and sacred cantatas? I ask, because I do not know them at all - Koopman´s recordings of course. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 02:45:27 PM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 02:36:47 PM
Would you go so far as to recommend his recordings of the passions and sacred cantatas? I ask, because I do not know them at all - Koopman´s recordings of course. :)

I have Koopman's DVD on Bach Cantatas Nos. 140 and 147, etc.  The DVD was quite enjoyable.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 02:51:28 PM
Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 02:36:47 PM
Would you go so far as to recommend his recordings of the passions and sacred cantatas? I ask, because I do not know them at all - Koopman´s recordings of course. :)

I would not recommend his passions like a first choice. But his complete cantatas -that cycle also includes the profane cantatas- are consistently fine. I generally agree with Koopman's selection of voices, but one prevention should be made: I love the first three volumes of his integral (9 CDs), but some people -even many people- can't stand the soprano Barbara Schlick, who is present in those discs. I always recall this because a friend of mine literally hates her voice. On the other hand, I love her.

À chacun son goût.

:)   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 13, 2009, 04:03:29 PM
I didn't know Foccroulle had undertaken an integral set. I have only one disc of it. And it does say Orgelwerke (XIV) on the booklet and back cover  ::).  I find his playing both colourful and thoughtful. IOW unflashy yet quite beautiful as sound.

Fagius is a very interesting musician, an extremely versatile organist with far-reaching interests. I haven't heard a lot of his Bach, but he seems intent on making statements out of the music. Some of the effects sound slightly contrived (the mordents and small pauses inserted in the opening phrase of S.565 for example). But if there's a cheap Brilliant box set, I don't see any reason not to explore futher... :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 04:08:06 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 13, 2009, 04:03:29 PM
I didn't know Foccroulle had undertaken an integral set. I have only one disc of it. And it does say Orgelwerke (XIV) on the booklet and back cover  ::).  I find his playing both colourful and thoughtful. IOW unflashy yet quite beautiful as sound.

Fagius is a very interesting musician, an extremely versatile organist with far-reaching interests. I haven't heard a lot of his Bach, but he seems intent on making statements out of the music. Some of the effects sound slightly contrived (the mordents and small pauses inserted in the opening phrase of S.565 for example). But if there's a cheap Brilliant box set, I don't see any reason not to explore futher... :)

If I find the time, I will pull his CD's out of that mammoth 155-CD BC Bach set to have a second listen ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 04:54:35 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 13, 2009, 04:03:29 PM
Fagius is a very interesting musician, an extremely versatile organist with far-reaching interests. I haven't heard a lot of his Bach, but he seems intent on making statements out of the music. Some of the effects sound slightly contrived (the mordents and small pauses inserted in the opening phrase of S.565 for example). But if there's a cheap Brilliant box set, I don't see any reason not to explore futher... :)

Presto UK has great deal with sale on Fagius/Brilliant 17CD set........$47
If you bought them as BIS 2CD releases cost over $300 for set

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/brilliantclassics92216.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 05:21:59 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 04:54:35 PM
Presto UK has great deal with sale on Fagius/Brilliant 17CD set........$47
If you bought them as BIS 2CD releases cost over $300 for set

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/brilliantclassics92216.jpg)

That 155-CD Bach set includes the entire organ works by Hans Fagius.  Why not just buy that mega set?  I got that set about 2 or 3 years ago ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 13, 2009, 11:09:59 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 02:21:15 PM
But what is wrong with Ton Koopman's organ playing?  I have the new set by him from Presto Classic sitting right next to me.  I also enjoy most works by Beethoven.

Quote from: premont on December 13, 2009, 02:23:02 PM
It is far from well-mannered, this Bach set not the least.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 02:25:57 PM
Yes, that's generally the case with Koopman as a keyboardist, although he is another story conducting vocal music. But when he takes his medicine on time, he can be fantastic: I am thinking, for example, in those superb Leipzig chorales –with sung chorales- performed on the organ of the Grote Kerk, Leeuwarden... Probably the human voice has a peace effect over him.  8)

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692817.jpg)

I must emphasize the superbness of the performance of the Leipzig Chorlas, but I personally like Ton Koopman much better as a organist than as a conductor! :o :)

His Teldec Bach set proved to be very satisfactory to me. I did fear moments of too much wild, hard driven inbalanced and overly embellished playing. But that did not materialize...at all. I'm allmost through the whole set and he generally does not go over the top for my taste: very nicely articulated, and sensibly varied playing. Only in the disc with Toccata's, Preludes and Fugues the is a bit too much twiddling going on. But other than than I think it's a superb set in a suitably free, "improvisatory", well informed HIP style on just the right instruments. :)

Koopman's style is admittedly of a personalised nature, but....IMO that is how it should be in organ music from the Baroque - as oppose to the bland, "objectivied" and abstracted approach that was, and very much still is around. Bach didn't play that way, nor did any selfrespecting organist of his time - they all made the music their own. Just pick the organist that suits your taste! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 12:25:58 AM
If one's a beginner in Bach's organ music, with a tendency to get addicted ;), one should begin with the not-so-very-recommandable organists / single discs / integrals. After hearing them, one is probably thinking: wow, great music, but somehow something is missing!
Then go for the better ones .... and you'll be addicted for a lifetime.

;D

[And now for something (only slightly) different:]

No surprise to some of you: my taste (and therefore advice) will be rather similar to Premont's. But when Ton Koopman is concerned: I totally understand the positive feelings towards him that were mentioned by Que!
But really: Fagius at Brilliant is very very cheap, and his set is a great intro to Bach's impressive organ oeuvre.
Sadly, my personal faves, if integrals are concerned, are all OOP and/or unfunished.
I would like to put a feather in George Ritchie's cap, though. His integral (label: Raven) is far from complete, but I very much enjoyed it. If one's having some difficulties with listening to old historic instruments, his 11cd-set is definitely worth investing.

BTW: if you're not entirely certain whether you're going to like this music, just begin with a single disc! There are so many good organists who didn't go for an integral!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 12:34:28 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 02:25:57 PM
[About Ton Koopman as keyboard player]
[....] when he takes his medicine on time, he can be fantastic [....]
;D  ;D  ;D

(Hence your own forum nickname? ;))
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 14, 2009, 02:06:26 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 14, 2009, 12:34:28 AM
;D  ;D  ;D

(Hence your own forum nickname? ;))

Nickname? It's my real name, Marc!  :D ;D

One of my favorite movie scenes on pills and medicines:

 
http://www.youtube.com/v/FbyP8gbb1hw

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 14, 2009, 07:36:38 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 04:54:35 PM
Presto UK has great deal with sale on Fagius/Brilliant 17CD set........$47
If you bought them as BIS 2CD releases cost over $300 for set
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/brilliantclassics92216.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516sJ6gYtzL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Thanks to Premont & company for eagerlly assisting me in depleting my music budget......
These two itens have been ordered, combined purchase under $65  :)

Coop
I did not get the big megabox Bach set by Brilliant because outside of the organ works did not see anything I had to have in that set........I think
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 14, 2009, 07:42:53 AM
Quote from: Que on December 13, 2009, 11:09:59 PM
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692817.jpg)

I must emphasize the superbness of the performance of the Leipzig Chorlas, but I personally like Ton Koopman much better as a organist than as a conductor! :o :)

Have you been able to compare these Koopman organ works to the performances in the cheap Brilliant boxset?
Are they are different.........

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rByPTbKZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 09:32:03 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 14, 2009, 07:42:53 AM
Have you been able to compare these Koopman organ works to the performances in the cheap Brilliant boxset?
Are they are different.........

Koopman began an integral for the Swiss Novalis label, but didn't finish it. The set was reissued by Brilliant: that's the 6cd-box.

For Teldec he began another integral, for which he started all over again.
In general, his style of playing didn't change that much. The 6cd-box is a bargain and IMHO good value for money. Koopman is quite unique, which means that (if financially possible) there's still more than enough room for any other interpreter in your cd collection. :)

For instance: Hans Vollenweider, who's in my cd-layer right now. He's the father of Andreas Vollenweider:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Vollenweider

I just started listening to a library copy of this one (OOP):
http://www.amazon.com/Hans-Vollenweider-Bach-Preludes-Fugues/dp/B0012UFZX4
First personal impressions: very capable organist, though his interpretation is a bit shallow (cautious), with not always convincing registration choices.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 14, 2009, 09:40:33 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 14, 2009, 07:42:53 AM
Have you been able to compare these Koopman organ works to the performances in the cheap Brilliant boxset?
Are they are different.........

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rByPTbKZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Yes, they are IMO. His style is, of course, basically the same. But - sorry for the platitude - it has matured. I feel less unabashed ethusiasm and thrust, his playing is now emotionally darker and introspective - especially in the chorales, and more refined I think. Of course, all relatively speaking! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 09:53:20 AM
Quote from: Que on December 14, 2009, 09:40:33 AM
Yes, they are IMO. His style is, of course, basically the same. But - sorry for the platitude - it has matured. I feel less unabashed ethusiasm and thrust, his playing is now emotionally darker and introspective - especially in the chorales, and more refined I think. Of course, all relatively speaking! :)

If the Dark Angel can stand the adornments, he might enjoy Koopman, I'm sure.
I agree with you about the chorales: these bring out the best in Koopman .... also in the Novalis recordings. All personally speaking! ;)

BTW, here's a non-chorale Koopman sampler from DG:
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Toccata-Passacaglia-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0000057FG
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 10:25:15 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 14, 2009, 09:32:03 AM
I just started listening to a library copy of this one (OOP):
http://www.amazon.com/Hans-Vollenweider-Bach-Preludes-Fugues/dp/B0012UFZX4
First personal impressions: very capable organist, though his interpretation is a bit shallow (cautious), with not always convincing registration choices.

Just finished listening to the entire disc, and I would like to add this (even though the item is OOP):
Vollenweider tends to begin the preludes rather cautious, builing up to a climax and in some fugues he's very well capable to keep the tension. The recital begins with BWV 548, a great & impressive work which is given only a moderate performance. The second work is BWV 536, and Vollenweider misses the joy of this one.
But after that he's getting better results with resp. BWV 534, 535, 532 and 543, especially in the fugues.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on December 14, 2009, 10:34:53 AM
This thread isn't helping. :-\

Let's say that I want to get the "complete" works -- I have it narrowed down to two: Koopman on Warner and Alain (II) from the same conglomerate. And now you guys throw Fagius into the mix!

Koopman:

       Pros (as I see and hear them, of course):                 Well, I did find his playing a bit strange (on the Novalis/Brilliant recordings), in that it sounded starkly different from "conventional" performances of famous pieces, the ones I was used to (think of the opening of The Addams Family, for instance ::)). I suppose this quality of his is what you refer to as overly embellished playing, Que?

Quote from: Que on December 13, 2009, 11:09:59 PM
Koopman's style is admittedly of a personalised nature, but....IMO that is how it should be in organ music from the Baroque
It's fairly common knowledge that the history of the performance tradition in the Baroque era is not my field of speciality 0:), but I had a very similar thought when I first listened to Koopman. I imagine that Bach was a 'kook' and played in similar fashion during his time as church organist ;D, rather than simply creating music in a stately manner.
                            And extra disc, that's all. But Koopman perhaps finishes up the majority of the pieces quickly?           
                                 But the pedal-pushing noise sometimes proves to be a distraction in the Brilliant set. How is it in the new one? I don't know about Alain.
           
      Cons (the lack of the following attributes/features are essentially some of the pros of the Alain set):     
                              Perhaps I should try out another playing style, considering I already own the Brilliant set.
           As for Alain, she's not HIP, but the instruments she used in her cycle are "lighter" and sweeter sounding. But would I always want to listen to a sweet-sounding organ? (As much as I'm a fan of Bach's music, I would probably not buy another cycle for a long time.)         

Decisions. Decisions.             
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 14, 2009, 10:42:33 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 02:25:57 PM
Yes, that's generally the case with Koopman as a keyboardist, although he is another story conducting vocal music. ... Probably the human voice has a peace effect over him. 


Quote from: Que on December 13, 2009, 11:09:59 PM
I must emphasize the superbness of the performance of the Leipzig Chorlas, but I personally like Ton Koopman much better as a organist than as a conductor! :o :)

Rather interesting diversity of opinions.

But what shall I think?? :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 10:48:21 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 14, 2009, 10:34:53 AM
This thread isn't helping. :-\

Let's say that I want to get the "complete" works -- I have it narrowed down to two: Koopman on Warner and Alain (II) from the same conglomerate. And now you guys throw Fagius into the mix!

Koopman:

       Pros (as I see and hear them, of course):

               
  • He's a HIPpy and a Bach scholar
                Well, I did find his playing a bit strange (on the Novalis/Brilliant recordings), in that it sounded starkly ldifferent from "conventional" performances of famous pieces, the ones I was used to (think of the opening of The Addams Family, for instance ::)). I suppose this quality of his is what you refer to as overly embellished playing, Que?
It's fairly common knowledge that the history of the performance tradition in the Baroque era is not my field of speciality 0:), but I had a very similar thought when I first listened to Koopman. I imagine that Bach was a 'kook' and played in similar fashion during his time as church organist ;D, rather than simply creating music in a stately manner.
           
  • His set is "more complete" than Alain's.
                 And extra disc, that's all. But Koopman perhaps finishes up the majority of the pieces quickly?           
           
  • The organs he uses make a lot of noise! <Insert head-banger-with-a-wig emoticon here>
                      But the pedal-pushing noise sometimes proves to be a distraction in the Brilliant set. How is it in the new one? I don't know about Alain.
           
      Cons (the lack of the following attributes/features are essentially some of the pros of the Alain set):     
            
  • Um... he has a weird playing style.
                  Perhaps I should try out another playing style, considering I already own the Brilliant set.
           
  • It's slightly costlier
As for Alain, she's not HIP, but the instruments she used in her cycle are "lighter" and sweeter sounding. But would I always want to listen to a sweet-sounding organ? (As much as I'm a fan of Bach's music, I would probably not buy another cycle for a long time.)         

Decisions. Decisions.           

Poor Navneeth.
Dunno if Alain is really not HIP.
But: let's skip HIP.
The great thing about Koopman is: you can buy him any time, because there's no one like him, and you might like his eccentricity.
The less great thing: if you want, for instance, one solid integral, I wouldn't go for Koopman, because there's no one like him, and you might dislike his eccentricity. ::)

If a (more or less) modern solid integral is required, I'd go for Alain 2, Fagius or Ritchie. But that's mainly because Ewald Kooiman (Coronata) and Bram Beekman (Lindenberg) are OOP.

So, you see, I made it all much easier for you! ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on December 14, 2009, 10:53:50 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 14, 2009, 10:48:21 AM
Poor Navneeth.
Dunno if Alain is really not HIP.
But: let's skip HIP.
The great thing about Koopman is: you can buy him any time, because there's no one like him, and you might like his eccentricity.
The less great thing: if you want, for instance, one solid integral, I wouldn't go for Koopman, because there's no one like him, and you might dislike his eccentricity. ::)

If a (more or less) modern solid integral is required, I'd go for Alain 2, Fagius or Ritchie. But that's mainly because Ewald Kooiman (Coronata) and Bram Beekman (Lindenberg) are OOP.

So, you see, I made it all much easier for you! ;)

Hm... thanks. ;)

The balance is slightly tipped towards Mme. Alain.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 11:13:01 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 14, 2009, 10:53:50 AM
Hm... thanks. ;)

The balance is slightly tipped towards Mme. Alain.

Oh, I forgot: no Neumeister chorales with Alain and Ritchie.
So: go for Fagius! ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on December 14, 2009, 11:14:24 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 14, 2009, 11:13:01 AM
Oh, I forgot: no Neumeister chorales with Alain and Ritchie.
So: go for Fagius! ;D

That settles it, then. :P ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 14, 2009, 11:18:54 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 14, 2009, 10:48:21 AM
Poor Navneeth.
Dunno if Alain is really not HIP.
But: let's skip HIP.
The great thing about Koopman is: you can buy him any time, because there's no one like him, and you might like his eccentricity.
The less great thing: if you want, for instance, one solid integral, I wouldn't go for Koopman, because there's no one like him, and you might dislike his eccentricity. ::)

If a (more or less) modern solid integral is required, I'd go for Alain 2, Fagius or Ritchie. But that's mainly because Ewald Kooiman (Coronata) and Bram Beekman (Lindenberg) are OOP.

So, you see, I made it all much easier for you! ;)

Skip HIP?! :o  ;) And what about Weinberger's impeccably HIP and rock-solid cycle? (non-eccentric HIP, if you will) On the right historical organs and damn cheap too! :) Liked by a fair number here - search for previous discussions! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0761203736324.jpg)
                         ~ jpc ~ (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-S%E4mtliche-Orgelwerke/hnum/7006321)


I also like the multi-interpreter cycle on Hänssler's Bach Edition: all HIP playing, some very interesting organists and a very good choice of organs that are superbly recorded. But that is no box set so more expensive - check BRO! :)

Marie-Claire Alain? Definitely not my taste, not a certified HIPpie ;)
(She does not only look like a French grandmother, she also plays like one... ;D My apologies to her fans... 0:))

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on December 14, 2009, 11:29:06 AM
Quote from: Que on December 14, 2009, 11:18:54 AM
And what about Weinberger's impeccably HIP and rock-solid cycle? (non-eccentric HIP, if you will) On the right historical organs and damn cheap too! :) Liked by a fair number here - search for previous discussions! :)

Damn cheap? I wish it was. CPO = not cheap.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 14, 2009, 11:29:12 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 14, 2009, 09:32:03 AM
For instance: Hans Vollenweider,

First personal impressions: very capable organist, though his interpretation is a bit shallow (cautious), with not always convincing registration choices.

Oh yes, Hans Vollenweider,  I almost forgot him. He has recorded a Bach organ integral too (in the 1970es), but I am not aware, that much of it is available on CD.

In the days of LP I somehow got hold of his Clavierübung III (label?) played on the Metzler organ in Grossmünster, Zurich, an organ I never found suited for Bach whatever the registrations (something which is confirmed by Lionel Rogg´s (first Rogg integrale) and Rudolf Scheideggers recordings on the same organ of the same work). Vollenweiders fillers were the Dorian and the Epidemic T & F played on the Schott organ in Muri. Later I got an EMI LP with four chorale free works (BWV 564 and 527 and two more I do not remember) also played on the Grossmünster organ. None of this survived my transformation to CD user, except the Clavierübung III which I burnt on two CD´s. Later I acquired his Leipzig chorales on CD (Accord).

Generally I find him technically competent, but his interpretations are unremarkable and as Marc says cautious. His choice for many of the recordings of the Grossnünster organ, where he was resident organist for many years, seems to me most unfortunate. I do not regret, that I did not spend my money upon him in time.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 11:33:21 AM
Quote from: Que on December 14, 2009, 11:18:54 AM
Skip HIP?! :o  ;) And what about Weinberger's impeccably HIP and rock-solid cycle? (non-eccentric HIP, if you will) On the right historical organs and damn cheap too! :) Liked by a fair number here - search for previous discussions! :)

I also like the multi-interpreter cycle on Hänssler's Bach Edition: all HIP playing, some very interesting organists and a very good choice of organs that are superbly recorded. But that is no box set so more expensive - check BRO! :)

Marie-Claire Alain? Definitely not my taste, not a certified HIPpie ;)
(She does not only look like a French grandmother, she also plays like one... ;D My apologies to her fans... 0:))

Do not interfere with my advices!!
;D

No, I like HIP, but I don't like the word HIP .... especially when I find it bothersome. :D

I like Weinberger, too, but he wouldn't be my first advice to someone who wanted to start with Bach, or wanted just the one integral.
But if this person is of the addicted and greedy kind like me, then of course mr. Weinberger's set will have him (or her) lick his (or her) lips very soon! ::)
Such a LARGE box for such a SMALL price! (At some sites, that is.)
And good HIP :P quality playing on HIP :P :P organs!

Apologies about Alain accepted. 0:)
(Though only after a severe struggle inside.)

But I fear for Navneeth's health.
Here's my final advice:
http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/

;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 11:36:28 AM
Quote from: premont on December 14, 2009, 11:29:12 AM
Generally I find him technically competent, but his interpretations are unremarkable and as Marc says cautious. His choice for many of the recordings of the Grossnünster organ, where he was resident organist for many years, seems to me most unfortunate. I do not regret, that I did not spend my money upon him in time.

Full agreement here, about the organ.
But I managed to get used to it whilst listening.
I'll be listening to Vollenweider's interpretation of the Leipziger Choräle, too. Just checking out both his free and liturgic skills. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on December 14, 2009, 11:37:03 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 14, 2009, 11:33:21 AM
But I fear for Navneeth's health.
Here's my final advice:
http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/

;D

Yes, I already have that bookmarked, I think. Is he HIP? ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 11:40:39 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 14, 2009, 11:37:03 AM
Yes, I already have that bookmarked, I think. Is he HIP? ;D

>:(

I'll be rushing off to this thread (again):
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15403.0.html

;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 14, 2009, 12:11:39 PM
Quote from: Marc on December 14, 2009, 11:33:21 AM

I like Weinberger, too, but he wouldn't be my first advice to someone who wanted to start with Bach, or wanted just the one integral.


Why?  :) He does seem to have what makes a basic integral. And his playing is not tooo much out of the ordinary (not eccentric, if you will), or does that make him unremarkable? ::) :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 14, 2009, 01:22:03 PM
Quote from: Que on December 14, 2009, 12:11:39 PM
Why?  :) He does seem to have what makes a basic integral. And his playing is not tooo much out of the ordinary (not eccentric, if you will), or does that make him unremarkable? ::) :)

I have the Weinberger and cherish it. I agree with the assessment, though. It's a library's first version, but for personal use I'd imagine it might nice to have a little more... ah... indulgence? Imagination? Which is actually why I'd find "Alain II" a rather good choice. It's got a bit more juice.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 01:52:01 PM
Quote from: Que on December 14, 2009, 12:11:39 PM
Why? :) He does seem to have what makes a basic integral. And his playing is not tooo much out of the ordinary (not eccentric, if you will), or does that make him unremarkable? ::) :)

Quite right, he's not eccentric. Which should make him a good choice. But yes, I think the quality of his playing is just an itsy bitsy teenie weenie uneven, although that's not really bothering me personally.
Further more, the choice of organs might not be to everyone's likings, combined with the alternately distant and very close miking.

I think that Weinberger should be one of the first choices after a newbie has had his/her first tastes of Bach's organ music, and wants to discover more.
Also, Weinberger's integral gives the interested organ lover a nice insight in the so-called dubious and spurious works. And he gives the not-so-newcomer-anymore a chance to dig deeper into the world and the sound of historic organs.

In general though, for a start with Bach, I think Fagius, Alain and Ritchie offer the most consistent integral readings. But I'd like to add that this is not always the same as desert island readings.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 14, 2009, 02:03:53 PM
Quote from: Marc on December 14, 2009, 01:52:01 PM
I think that Weinberger should be one of the first choices after a newbie has had his/her first tastes of Bach's organ music, and wants to discover more...

...let's not forget that you can't even think of getting an integral without already having this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HHP0BTGRL._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006ZFQMQ/nectarandambr-20)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/dg-originals-review.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/dg-originals-review.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 02:10:56 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 14, 2009, 02:03:53 PM
...let's not forget that you can't even think of getting an integral without already having this one:

[3cd-set with Karl Richter / DG Originals]
Dear Jens, we were so unisono concerning Weinberger .... but let me whisper in your ear:
I'm really not a Richter man.

:'(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 14, 2009, 02:20:11 PM
Quote from: Marc on December 14, 2009, 02:10:56 PM
Dear Jens, we were so unisono concerning Weinberger .... but let me whisper in your ear:
I'm really not a Richter man.

:'(

Lovers gained and lovers lost
in but a fleeting Moment.
He makes of Richter's Bach the most,
The other finds it torment.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 02:28:58 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 14, 2009, 02:20:11 PM
Lovers gained and lovers lost
in but a fleeting Moment.
He makes of Richter's Bach the most,
The other finds it torment.

A very inspired example of poetic exaggeration.
Could deservedly become the bonus track of Schubert's Winterreise!
;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 14, 2009, 04:29:18 PM
Quote from: premont on December 14, 2009, 10:42:33 AM

Rather interesting diversity of opinions.

But what shall I think?? :)

I would sincerely prefer that Q had reason  :)... However, today I was listening to the Koopman's Trio Sonatas and Orgelbüchlein and I think I won't repeat this experience very often in the future. The organ trio sonatas seem absolutely out of character –with a dark, shadowy tone crossing the disc- and Koopman have severe problems to convey the subtle and delicate intimacy of the choral preludes. I prefer his work as a director, although he can produce some amazing moments on the keyboard, namely, as I said before, in the Leipzig Chorales.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 14, 2009, 05:41:30 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 14, 2009, 04:29:18 PM
I would sincerely prefer that Q had reason  :)... However (...)

0:)

Your namesake will be soo dissapointed! ;)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 14, 2009, 05:49:47 PM
Quote from: Que on December 13, 2009, 11:09:59 PM
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692817.jpg)

I must emphasize the superbness of the performance of the Leipzig Chorlas, but I personally like Ton Koopman much better as a organist than as a conductor! :o :)

His Teldec Bach set proved to be very satisfactory to me. I did fear moments of too much wild, hard driven inbalanced and overly embellished playing. But that did not materialize...at all. I'm allmost through the whole set and he generally does not go over the top for my taste: very nicely articulated, and sensibly varied playing. Only in the disc with Toccata's, Preludes and Fugues the is a bit too much twiddling going on. But other than than I think it's a superb set in a suitably free, "improvisatory", well informed HIP style on just the right instruments. :)

Koopman's style is admittedly of a personalised nature, but....IMO that is how it should be in organ music from the Baroque - as oppose to the bland, "objectivied" and abstracted approach that was, and very much still is around. Bach didn't play that way, nor did any selfrespecting organist of his time - they all made the music their own. Just pick the organist that suits your taste! :)

Q

I hope political-correctness has not started to pervade in classical music as well.  Koopman is fully entitled to display his own idiosyncrasies in his interpretation and execution of Bach Organ Works.  His set is still in the shrink-wrap, which I hope to listen to before the winter is over.  I will try to finish listening to my Walcha stereo set and the Weinberger set (still in shrink-wrap as well after 9 months).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 14, 2009, 06:18:30 PM
Quote from: Marc on December 14, 2009, 01:52:01 PM
Quite right, he's not eccentric. Which should make him a good choice. But yes, I think the quality of his playing is just an itsy bitsy teenie weenie uneven, although that's not really bothering me personally.
Further more, the choice of organs might not be to everyone's likings, combined with the alternately distant and very close miking.


All agreed. Reasons why I did put my plans to buy this set on the back burner, for now. The major attractions for me are the historical organs and the moments that Weinberger shines, which are there! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on December 14, 2009, 06:37:41 PM
I might as well add my opinion that it's not a good idea for someone new to Bach's organ music to get an integral set from one organist.  Try out a host of different artists to find those that you prefer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 14, 2009, 06:47:30 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel
b]Coop[/b]
I did not get the big megabox Bach set by Brilliant because outside of the organ works did not see anything I had to have in that set........I think

I guess you are not into Bach's orchestral and choral works like I am.  Handel Ezio by Alan Curtis, anyone?  I hope to get this set soon ...     ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 15, 2009, 03:40:18 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 14, 2009, 06:37:41 PM
I might as well add my opinion that it's not a good idea for someone new to Bach's organ music to get an integral set from one organist.  Try out a host of different artists to find those that you prefer.
Sure. But somewhere in the back of my head I remember that the 'original' question was searching for the Holy Grail Integral. :)

My own experiences are rather mixed: long long time ago I started with single discs (even vinyl): Alain, Leonhardt, Power Biggs.
But I must admit: the complete Bach Brilliant integral of Fagius, was a very good intro to all(?) organ works composed by JSB.

I did mention the possibility of single discs, btw. I mean: there are so many great performers who never did an integral. Leonhardt and Power Biggs I already mentioned, and personal favourites of mine are Wim van Beek and Leo van Doeselaar.

Still, when price/quality is concerned, I think there's nothing wrong with collecting the bargain box of Fagius first. Not for a choice of organist, but for a choice of your favourite Bach organ compositions. After that, if one has fallen in love, there is a great variety of recordings to choose from.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 15, 2009, 03:58:16 AM
Quote from: Que on December 14, 2009, 05:41:30 PM
0:)

Your namesake will be soo dissapointed! ;)

Q

He shouln't be dissapointed, Q, after all my musical knowledges are almost inexistent  :). Besides, I just was trying to recall the reasons of my disconformity about some discs of that integral, but there are several Koopman's recordings -as a soloist and director- that I love.   :)

P.S.: BTW, I have noticed other cases in which human voice has a beneficial influx over directors and musicians in general, being Fasolis a notorious example (just compare his passions or, even better, his Membra Jesu Nostri to, for example, his Brandenburgs). Something similar happened with Cafe Zimmerman under Leonhartd (BWV 30a & 207), although probably here it was Leonhardt's steel fist.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 15, 2009, 02:41:41 PM
2009 is almost at its end .... :'(

For me, it was the first musical year that I spent with (almost) just the one instrument. I celebrated my rediscovery of the organ, and especially JSB's oeuvre for that instrument.

Greatest thrills?
Too much to mention.

Still, here are some:
BWV 533 played by Stanislas Deriemaeker on the Metzler-organ of Onze Lieve Vrouwekathedraal in Antwerp, Belgium.
CD: Rene Gailly CD 87 137 (OOP?)
Philipp Spitta called this one Cathedral and Deriemaeker proves it!

BWV 565 played by Daniel Chorzempa on the Flentrop-organ of the Grote Kerk in Breda, NL.
CD: PentaTone Classics 5186 127
Dazzling experience, that's all I can say.
'Second-best' BWV 565 that I heard this year: Thiemo Janssen on the Arp Schnitger-organ of the Ludgerkirche in Norden, BRD.
CD: MDG 906 1502-6

Orgel-Büchlein, dead heat between Bram Beekman (Lindenberg) and Ewald Kooiman (Coronata), both OOP.
Highly spiritual in a protestant way, I would say.

BWV 582 played by Jacques van Oortmerssen, live concert at the Agricola/Schnitger/Hinsz-organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL.
(See comments on that one earlier in this thread :).)

BWV 562 played by Piet Wiersma on the Lohman-organ of the Hervormde Kerk in Eenrum, NL.
CD: Eurosound ES 47.431 (OOP)
Just a few hours later Piet Wiersma died, leaving his Bach in Groningen integral unfinished, as did Bach with this masterpiece. There were lots of troubles with the reed stops that recording day, because of the extreme tropical temperatures, but the way Wiersma played it .... it's the ultimate Aus tiefer Not feeling. Such heartfelt playing. Perhaps Wiersma sensed what was gonna happen to him soon after .... ?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 15, 2009, 06:57:20 PM
The 1978-1980 Marie-Claire Alain integral set one Erato is available at BRO for just  59.84$

Marc, add to your list of favourites the Fantasia and Fugue in a minor, S. 542
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 15, 2009, 07:00:37 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 15, 2009, 06:57:20 PM
The 1978-1980 Marie-Claire Alain integral set one Erato is available at BRO for just  59.84$

Marc, add to your list of favourites the Fantasia and Fugue in a minor, S. 542

Unfortunately, I have some 70% of the set when I accumulated the singles over the years but never managed to own every CD ...   :(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 01:32:56 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 15, 2009, 06:57:20 PM
[....]
Marc, add to your list of favourites the Fantasia and Fugue in a minor, S. 542
Ha! You got me there.
But also you've got yourself! Because, yes: BWV 542 is a miracle work. But it's in g minor! ;)

Yesterday my head apparently was a bit emptied, after going to the movies and watching Valeria Bruni-Tedeschi for about 100 minutes (Les regrets).

The Bach list I made was constructed by the ones that came immediately to my mind. I didn't really do any preparation. :)

Concerning BWV 542, I was (and still am) very fond of the first recording by André Isoir (70s), part of his integral (Calliope), and better than the second one he did (early 90s).

I'd also like to add my favourite recording (or: one of my faves, I should say) of the lovely Schübler-Choräle.
I borrowed this summer a single library copy by Per Fridtjov Bonsaksen, playing on the Wagner-organ of Trondheim Cathedral, Norway. I think these recordings were (partly?) reissued in a 2cd-set by Challenge Classics, labelno. CC72146. IMO, it's a beautiful experience for anyone who likes fresh, vivid and no-nonsense Bach-playing.

If you were referring to BWV 543 in a minor, I really like the performance by (here we go again) a Dutch organist called Cor Ardesch. Playing the famous Silbermann-organ of the Freiberger Cathedral. CD: MPD-classic 17142408. Ardesch, like f.i. Wim van Beek, is able to keep Bach's polyphony clear even in the pleno outbursts. I'm not sure if this CD is available outside the Dutch Mountains, though. Anyway, here's a link to a disc, that definitely deserves a listening IMHO:
http://www.corardesch.nl/bachinfreiberg.html
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 03:12:01 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 15, 2009, 06:57:20 PM
The 1978-1980 Marie-Claire Alain integral set one Erato is available at BRO for just  59.84$

Marc, add to your list of favourites the Fantasia and Fugue in a minor, S. 542

It might be just as inexpensive (and space-saving!) to get the re-release from Europe...
(Cheaper still, if "used" is acceptable.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gvqsdJb8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000RZOR2K?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambruk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B000RZOR2K)

Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000RZOR2K?ie=UTF8&tag=jlaurson-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B000RZOR2K)

Amazon.fr (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B000RZOR2K?ie=UTF8&tag=ionarts0e-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1642&creative=19458&creativeASIN=B000RZOR2K)

Just listening to--and absolutely loving it--Walcha's Fantasie in G, BWV 572 from this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519klTAnE-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Bach
Organ Works
Archiv (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004SAAX?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00004SAAX)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 16, 2009, 06:50:19 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 03:12:01 AM
Just listening to--and absolutely loving it--Walcha's Fantasie in G, BWV 572 from this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519klTAnE-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Bach
Organ Works Archiv (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004SAAX?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00004SAAX)

Jens do you like the Walcha stereo set in general or just that work in particular........is it one of your favorite complete sets?
Have you heard the mono Walcha set?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 06:55:08 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 16, 2009, 06:50:19 AM
Jens do you like the Walcha stereo set in general
Yes...
Quoteor just that work in particular........
No...
Quoteis it one of your favorite complete sets?
I have no "favorite set" -- I can't at all decide between the ones I have. (Alain II, Rogg II, Walcha II, Weinberger, Stockmeier, Fagius)
I know I like the select Bowyers releases I have...
I would not mind adding/hearing Koopman II (though I care very little for the semi-cycle re-issued on Brilliant.)
QuoteHave you heard the mono Walcha set?
No.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 06:55:08 AM
I have no "favorite set" -- I can't at all decide between the ones I have.
I do realize that it sometimes occurs if favo(u)rite is my favo(u)rite word. ;)
But I do recognize Jens' feelings towards the Bach organ discs/sets/whatever. There are so many goodies in this field. With very different approaches, sure, but that doesn't mean that I really dislike all the so-called less-favo(u)rites. :)
On the contrary! It's almost impossible to choose one!

It's just that I wouldn't advice f.i. Michael Murray or Simon Preston .... although Murray has recorded some good chorales and Preston some very fine trio sonatas and .... here we go again. :D

But dear Dark Angel, if you can find a rather cheap Fagius, Alain, Ritchie or Vernet, Weinberger, Foccroulle, Koopman, Isoir, Rogg, Stockmeier, Walcha .... hey, they're all great IMO!

Was this helpful or what? :P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 11:21:04 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 03:12:01 AM
It might be just as inexpensive (and space-saving!) to get the re-release from Europe...
(Cheaper still, if "used" is acceptable.)

I ordered a very cheap Walcha 2 this summer. It had to fly from the United States of America to the old continent, and I had to pay around 25 euro's extra for tax import! >:(
Bl.... protectionism!

Dunno what the situation is the other way round, but if you're from the US of A, and ordering music/books from Europe, it might be a suggestion to ask the delivery organisation to write the word gift on the package. Dunno if this helps, but I was recently adviced to try that next time.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 11:54:21 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 11:51:28 AM
[....] economics it the most irrational field in politics these days; makes religious debates look inspired by reason.

;D

And now it's time for Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2009, 12:11:18 PM
Well, the quality of the religious debate depends on the quality of those debating, yes?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 12:19:09 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 16, 2009, 12:11:18 PM
Well, the quality of the religious debate depends on the quality of those debating, yes?

I'd say: the quality of the religious debate depends on the quality of those debating.

But yes (back to topic): the organ is often assumed to be the instrument of God.
And Bach is often assumed to be a true believer in God.

;)

Any chance, all being members of this quality discussion board, of a quality debate about that?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 12:29:21 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 12:26:58 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------
Therefore: Bach is believed to have been the instrument of God.

No... wait. God assumed Bach believed in the Organ?

Bach believed his organ to be God.
Jens!
Who took away your recent posting about taxes, economics and religion et cetera .... was it the organ, Bach .... or God?
Or is my vision blurred (again)?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 16, 2009, 05:35:06 PM
Quote from: Marc on December 16, 2009, 01:32:56 AM
Ha! You got me there.
But also you've got yourself! Because, yes: BWV 542 is a miracle work. But it's in g minor! ;)


Yikes!  :-[ As if I didn't know... >:D I was listening to Mendelssohn's Scottish symphony when typing this (Litton, Bergen), it must have spilled into my writing.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 16, 2009, 05:57:39 PM
Quote from: Marc on December 16, 2009, 11:21:04 AM
I ordered a very cheap Walcha 2 this summer. It had to fly from the United States of America to the old continent, and I had to pay around 25 euro's extra for tax import! >:(
Bl.... protectionism!

Dunno what the situation is the other way round, but if you're from the US of A, and ordering music/books from Europe, it might be a suggestion to ask the delivery organisation to write the word gift on the package. Dunno if this helps, but I was recently adviced to try that next time.

I Have not paid a dime to the US custom after having ordered thousands of dollars worth of CD's from the UK so far this year.  Naturally, I do not pay one pence on the VAT, though the Harnoncourt 60-CD Complete Cantatas set cost me over $20 USD to ship, which I received in 2 days and had to sign for the package.  It does appear EU is more protectionist, that is why it does not run the huge trade deficits like those idiot free traders in Washington have gotten us into ...   >:(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: listener on December 16, 2009, 08:04:54 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 12:26:58 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------
Therefore: Bach is believed to have been the instrument of God.

No... wait. God assumed Bach believed in the Organ?

Bach believed his organ to be God.

Considering the number of his progeny, his organ had no stop.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 17, 2009, 03:48:21 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 16, 2009, 12:29:21 PM
Jens!
Who took away your recent posting about taxes, economics and religion et cetera .... was it the organ, Bach .... or God?
Or is my vision blurred (again)?

Oh, I did. When I write something that's not even remotely pertinent, I take it down. No reason to get into economics in this forum. Especially not when my point about irrational idiocy reactions is proven just a few posts later.

But I'm calming myself with more of the Walch II Bach cycle.

P&F in c, BWV 546, Trio Sonata No.1 in E-flat, BWV 525, et al.
Terrific.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519klTAnE-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Bach
Organ Works
Archiv (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004SAAX?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00004SAAX)

Quote from: listener on December 16, 2009, 08:04:54 PM
Considering the number of his progeny, his organ had no stop.

A German professor of mine once related this introductory sentence in an essay on Bach he (allegedly) received:

"Johann Sebastian Bach had 20 children. He was an old master of the grand organ."

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 17, 2009, 05:55:44 AM
Jens
There does seem to be some beneficial health properties to organ playing........
look how long some of great organ composers lived compared to average lifespan of 1700s European male:

JS Bach - 65
Buxtehude - 70
Handel - 74
Telemann - 86
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 11, 2010, 08:33:02 AM
OMG!

I just did a terrible thing.

Here I am, low on money, eating bread & butter each and every day, and, in the midst of all this misery, in a state of mental derangement , I ordered the bl.... Bach integral by Peter Hurford.

And why?

Only because my greedy soul wanted a Brit box, and declined the invitations of Preston (too neat), Herrick (too sweet) and Bowyer (too quick-freezed).

Oh, I forgot, Preston I already own.

So, will this be my second not so very wise Bach Brit Box purchase?

:-[

Plz, connaisseurs, say something nice about Peter H.!

Post Sciptum: of course I expect some bullying by Bulldog Don, not because of Hurford's capacities, but because of another stupid box set greediness.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 11, 2010, 08:38:23 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 11, 2010, 08:33:02 AM
OMG!

I just did a terrible thing.


1.) You can never have enough Bach organ music,  boxes or not.
2.) A Passacaglia is more nourishing than most things you can microwave
3.) I have always enjoyed Hurford's "Best of" 2-disc set on Decca.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 11, 2010, 08:44:51 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 11, 2010, 08:38:23 AM
1.) You can never have enough Bach organ music, boxes or not.
2.) A Passacaglia is more nourishing than most things you can microwave
3.) I have always enjoyed Hurford's "Best of" 2-disc set on Decca.
Jens, give me more! ;D

About your third point: yes, I got that one this summer very cheap, and liked it better than almost exactly the same selection by Kevin Bowyer (2cd also).

I'll just have to fight the bubbling in my stomache, I guess. Thank heavens I still have some biscuit left. Combined with another BWV 582 et al, I think I will survive .... or won't I? :-\
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 11, 2010, 08:56:42 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 11, 2010, 08:44:51 AM
Jens, give me more! ;D

About your third point: yes, I got that one this summer very cheap, and liked it better than almost exactly the same selection by Kevin Bowyer (2cd also).

I'll just have to fight the bubbling in my stomache, I guess. Thank heavens I still have some biscuit left. Combined with another BWV 582 et al, I think I will survive .... or won't I? :-\

Biscuit is no means to survive on a small budget, man! If you're a Bach-man,  you're smart enough to make due with a few quid per day for food. If you have a kitchen to use.

Meet your three new friends: Pasta! Rice! Lentils! And the king-maker: Olive Oil. Either of the three, with onions or without onions, with onions and with garlic or without garlic or without onions and with chili peppers or with lots of chili peppers... you get the drift. Add whatever vegetables are in season/cheaply had. I do hope you like tea, because it's your new drink of choice. Milk is OK... but not every day. Yoghurt, if you like it, every Sunday.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 11, 2010, 10:31:54 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 11, 2010, 08:56:42 AM
Biscuit is no means to survive on a small budget, man! If you're a Bach-man,  you're smart enough to make due with a few quid per day for food. If you have a kitchen to use.

Meet your three new friends: Pasta! Rice! Lentils! And the king-maker: Olive Oil. Either of the three, with onions or without onions, with onions and with garlic or without garlic or without onions and with chili peppers or with lots of chili peppers... you get the drift. Add whatever vegetables are in season/cheaply had. I do hope you like tea, because it's your new drink of choice. Milk is OK... but not every day. Yoghurt, if you like it, every Sunday.
Jens, you delivered a rather apt description of everyday dinner life. ;D
I really do like pastas, rice, onions, garlic, cheap vegetables, tea and yoghurt.
No problems here then.

And, besides that, completely in peace with everything at this very moment, thanx to the Partite diverse sopra il Corale "Sei gegrüßet, Jesu gütig" BWV 768. Played on the beautiful Arp Schnitger organ of the St. Martini & Nicolaikirche, Steinkirchen, Germany. Organist: Werner Jacob.

As I was saying, completely in peace right now .... wait a sec! Werner Jacob? Do I already have his Bach integral? NO! Unbelievable! A great void in my collection!

>:D

Where are the Amazon links?

:P

Where are my pills?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 12, 2010, 12:47:40 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 11, 2010, 08:33:02 AM
I just did a terrible thing....... I ordered the bl.... Bach integral by Peter Hurford.

So, will this be my second not so very wise Bach Brit Box purchase?

Plz, connaisseurs, say something nice about Peter H.!

Admittedly I consider Hurford´s Bach integral to be one of the more idiosyncratic of its kind. Certainly an acquired taste, which took me some time to acquire. He plays with great authority and conviction, but his sound world is relatively romantic, due to his not always fortunate choices of organs and his often rather "fat" registrations. Add that he plays quite much legato. But his partplaying is excellent and the recorded sound most often good and never less than adequate. And still I much prefer him at least to Preston and Bovyer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 12, 2010, 12:58:11 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 11, 2010, 10:31:54 AM
I really do like pastas, rice, onions, garlic, cheap vegetables, tea and yoghurt.

Very similar to my consumption (except garlic).

Quote from: Marc on January 11, 2010, 10:31:54 AM
..Partite diverse sopra il Corale "Sei gegrüßet, Jesu gütig" BWV 768. Played on the beautiful Arp Schnitger organ of the St. Martini & Nicolaikirche, Steinkirchen, Germany. Organist: Werner Jacob.

Alas this Schnitger / Steinkirchen organ is too little used for recordings.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2010, 12:59:50 PM
Quote from: premont on January 12, 2010, 12:47:40 PM
Admittedly I consider Hurford´s Bach integral one of the more idiosyncratic of its kind. Certainly an acquired taste, which took me some time to acquire. He plays with great authority and conviction, but his sound world is relatively romantic, due to his not always fortunate choices of organs and his often rather "fat" registrations. Add that he plays quite much legato. But his partplaying is excellent and the recorded sound most often good and never less than adequate. And still I much prefer him at least to Preston and Bovyer.

Thanks Premont, I shall wait with great expectations.

You know, about the financial thing, I would not be so 'negative' if I wouldn't have ordered the Knud Vad integral the day before, too. But this 18-disc collection was only 25 euro (new, sealed et cetera). But after ordering I 'suddenly' read: requires SACD-compatible hardware. On the other hand: on the front cover it says: hybrid SACD. I mean, if it were really non-hybrid SACD's, then the entire collection would have fitted on plusminus 6 discs, no?

So, though I'm a little confused, and eating biscuit, I still reckon those Vad discs are playable at my old-fashioned stereo hifi set. Do you know this specific box (large box, with also a large booklet!)?

Here's the link (mind you, the only 25 euro copy is not longer available, because I ordered it):
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Complete-Hybrid-Germany/dp/B000EPFGS2
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2010, 01:10:57 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 12, 2010, 12:59:50 PM

So, though I'm a little confused, and eating biscuit,


1.) Man... now *I*'m getting interested in Hurford's integral. Damned... I shall resist.

2.) Yes, Knud Vad comes on Hybrid SACDs. No worry about alleged special equipment. The fools at Amazon can't categorize things they have no clue about worth &$*#.

3.) Do you remember the special 'book-like' box sets of Rock and Country music that were really popular from the mid-90 to the early oughts? The tall ones? It comes like that, conveniently NOT fitting into any CD shelve that could ever be useful. It's three fold-out panels and in each panel sit six CDs... well... something like that.

4.) Kraft/EMI looks like one genuinely unattractive set. That's why I never tempted you with a link.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2010, 01:19:51 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2010, 01:10:57 PM
[....]
4.) Kraft/EMI looks like one genuinely unattractive set. That's why I never tempted you with a link.

;D ;D ;D

Dear Jens, if you only knew!

Or do you have paranormal gifts?

As it happens, I'm listening to Walter Kraft right now (BWV 543).
Yes, of the old German lads I prefer Helmut Walcha, but Kraft isn't all that bad .... and having some discs of him gives me a good insight of the development in Bachorgan playing since World War 2. And I have to admit: he had a rather good choice in organs!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 12, 2010, 01:23:31 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 12, 2010, 12:59:50 PM
So, though I'm a little confused, and eating biscuit, I still reckon those Vad discs are playable at my old-fashioned stereo hifi set. Do you know this specific box (large box, with also a large booklet!)?

The Knud Vad Bach integral was released by Danish Classico maybe six years ago. Being  a member of the "Classico-club" I got this Danish CD release for about 350 DKr. = ca 45 Euro. Much later I acquired the Membran SACD release, you refer to. I have not listened to this yet, and I do not own a SACD player, but it was announced as being hybrid, so I did not think much about this issue. If you can wait until to morrow, I shall find out.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2010, 01:25:22 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2010, 01:10:57 PM
[....]
3.) Do you remember the special 'book-like' box sets of Rock and Country music that were really popular from the mid-90 to the early oughts? The tall ones? It comes like that, conveniently NOT fitting into any CD shelve that could ever be useful. It's three fold-out panels and in each panel sit six CDs... well... something like that.
[....]

Last summer I was tempted with such a large box set, with 4 cd's and one DVD and a great booklet, all filled with historical organs (music, info et al) of the Dutch province Groningen. Mouthwatering .... and expensive, so I resisted. Tough really, because the DVD showed the entire Martinikerk organ (Groningen) from the inside, with comments of organ (re)builders Jürgen Ahrend and Cor Edskes.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2010, 01:28:57 PM
Quote from: premont on January 12, 2010, 01:23:31 PM
The Knud Vad Bach integral was released by Danish Classico maybe six years ago. Being  a member of the "Classico-club" I got this Danish CD release for about 350 DKr. = ca 45 Euro. Much later I acquired the Membran SACD release, you refer to. I have not listened to this yet, and I do not own a SACD player, but it was announced as being hybrid, so I did not think much about this issue. If you can wait until to morrow, I shall find out.

Of course I can wait. If you second Jens' words, I know I can 'relax' again. If not, and you are eventually proven right, then Jens will be eating pine basso profundo instead of biscuit.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 12, 2010, 01:29:09 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2010, 01:10:57 PM
2.) 3.) Do you remember the special 'book-like' box sets of Rock and Country music that were really popular from the mid-90 to the early oughts? The tall ones? It comes like that, conveniently NOT fitting into any CD shelve that could ever be useful. It's three fold-out panels and in each panel sit six CDs... well... something like that.
Yes and the "booklet" with text is the most heavy I ever have seen.

Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2010, 01:10:57 PM
4.) Kraft/EMI looks like one genuinely unattractive set. That's why I never tempted you with a link.
You must mean Jacob/EMI. Well Jacob was Kraft´s most prominent pupil. But why do you think it is unattractive?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2010, 01:31:07 PM
Oh, Mr. Laurson was speaking of W. Jacob.
So, no spooky paranormal things after all.

;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 12, 2010, 01:51:24 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2010, 01:39:32 PM
Yes, I did mean Jacob. As per the 'hunch': A mix of what I've heard of it (very little, admittedly), what I've heard about it, the asking price, the competition (at lower price points... which, by now, is all but two, three sets anyway).  I've seen the Vad set at very low prices, indeed... but I've never been tempted beyond holding it in my hand and then putting it back again. I'd have to hear a rave from a trustworthy SACD-competent source that it's "all that" to even...

No...hold it, you devils... didn't I just announce that I shan't get any more complete sets of Bach's organ music anymore this year?!?

I had the Jacob set and got rid of it.  The sound was very uneven, some discs were very harsh, enough to be utterly unlistenable, IMO.   At this point I've got too many Bach organ sets to even try to get through (Weinberger, the 70's Allain, Koopman/Teldec, one of the Walcha sets, and another one at least).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 12, 2010, 02:03:23 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 12, 2010, 01:51:24 PM
I had the Jacob set and got rid of it.  The sound was very uneven, some discs were very harsh, enough to be utterly unlistenable, IMO. 

I agree, that the sound is uneven, but IMO never unlistenable - at least not on my gear.
But the set is interesting for other and more important reasons: The many historical organs and the interpretation. But I understand, that these circumstances do not count??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 12, 2010, 02:15:53 PM
Quote from: premont on January 12, 2010, 02:03:23 PM
But I understand, that these circumstances do not count??

Not if I can't bear to listen to the recording.   :'(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2010, 02:17:13 PM
Quote from: premont on January 12, 2010, 02:03:23 PM
I agree, that the sound is uneven, but IMO never unlistenable - at least not on my gear.
But the set is interesting for other and more important reasons: The many historical organs and the interpretation. But I understand, that these circumstances do not count??

No one suggested it does not count. But is it enough in light of the massive competition? Is it unique in any way? Well... the interpretation for obvious reasons (even mine would be unique... which goes to show what a highly neutral term "unique" really is). But the choice of instruments? There are more historical organ sets than modern organ sets, by now.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 12, 2010, 02:22:29 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2010, 02:17:13 PM
There are more historical organ sets than modern organ sets, by now.

And how am I to appreciate how a "historical" organ sounds when the audio engineering and/or digital transfer is incompetently done?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 12, 2010, 02:43:24 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2010, 02:27:24 PM
Ah... I was arguing 'on your side'. Nor is my point disputing yours.  :D

Yes, I am agreeing with you.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 12, 2010, 05:38:44 PM
Quote from: premont on January 12, 2010, 02:03:23 PM
I agree, that the sound is uneven, but IMO never unlistenable - at least not on my gear.
But the set is interesting for other and more important reasons: The many historical organs and the interpretation. But I understand, that these circumstances do not count??

Premont, I share your view on the Jacob's set.  I bought the set almost 2 years ago.  While I do not consider the set to be among the top Bach Complete Organ Works set, it is an interesting set from a historical perspective ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 12, 2010, 10:25:20 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2010, 02:17:13 PM
But the choice of instruments? There are more historical organ sets than modern organ sets, by now.

The ratio between existing historical organ sets and modern organ sets is approximately 15 / 15. And besides it is not just a question of historical organs or not, but also a question of which historical organs. Jacob played on a number of the commonly used organs but even on some very little used instruments, the Schnitger / Steinkirchen being a good example.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 12, 2010, 10:29:45 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 12, 2010, 02:15:53 PM
Not if I can't bear to listen to the recording.   :'(

Do not listen to the recording, listen to the music. 8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 05:16:21 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 13, 2010, 05:04:56 AM
Well, but by that logic we should have everything that includes someone doing anything differently than anyone else. Which is just about the argument to have all sets rather than discriminate. But if discriminate we must (and we must, to some degree or another), the question is: Is that which Jacob offers so different and so important that he ought to be chosen over any? all? some? other organists and their collections---even if the sound is not satisfactory, making it more difficult to listen to the music?

My criteria was simple.  When I listened to the Jacob set, I felt I hated Bach.  My goal is not to sit around investigating subtle differences between baroque organs, it is to enjoy music.  The Jacob set was, for me, not compatible with that goal.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 05:21:41 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 13, 2010, 05:18:16 AM
Why do I feel you are arguing with me? You are arguing with Premont.  :P ;)

I do not think that quoting a post indicates disagreement, rather than agreement.  It depends on context.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2010, 06:33:42 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 05:16:21 AM
When I listened to the Jacob set, I felt I hated Bach. 
:o
After such an experience, there are only two options: either one stops, either one hates. I would have gone for the first option, too. :)

Quote from: Scarpia
My goal is not to sit around investigating subtle differences between baroque organs, it is to enjoy music. The Jacob set was, for me, not compatible with that goal.
Fair enough. Maybe with the Weinberger set you will be able to strike the golden mean.
Personally, I'm quite happy with my 3cd Jacobs sampler, though he's not my favourite Bach organist.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 08:19:11 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 13, 2010, 06:33:42 AM
Fair enough. Maybe with the Weinberger set you will be able to strike the golden mean.

Parts of the Jacob set were ok, but parts were very not-ok, very very not-ok, in my own opinion.  The set ranged from awful to acceptable, so I did not feel the need to keep it. 

Of the sets I have, none are perfect.  My gripe with Weinberger is that some organs are recorded with too much reverberation, while others are more more closely recorded and spectacular, in my opinion.  I like his lively articulation which makes counterpoint clear.   The other sets, Koopman/Teldec, Allain, Walcha, all have their high points and low points.  There are also a number of outstanding individual discs, such as Richter's collections of DG and Decca, and Johannson's Trio Sonatas (Hanssler).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 13, 2010, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: premont on January 12, 2010, 02:03:23 PM
I agree, that the sound is uneven, but IMO never unlistenable - at least not on my gear.
But the set is interesting for other and more important reasons: The many historical organs and the interpretation. But I understand, that these circumstances do not count??

I've had the Jacobs set for many years and don't find the sound quality a problem.  As for the performances, it's quite a mix; some of them are among the worst I have ever heard, some among the best.  I'm happy to have the set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 13, 2010, 09:31:03 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 08:19:11 AM
There are also a number of outstanding individual discs, such as Richter's collections of DG and Decca, and Johannson's Trio Sonatas (Hanssler).

I agree about Richter, but not Johannson.  I find his Trio Sonatas disc rather heavy and drab, the same opinion I hold for his other Bach discs for Haenssler.  For the Trio Sonatas, Rogg or Walcha are far superior.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 01:41:36 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 13, 2010, 09:31:03 AM
I agree about Richter, but not Johannson.  I find his Trio Sonatas disc rather heavy and drab, the same opinion I hold for his other Bach discs for Haenssler.  For the Trio Sonatas, Rogg or Walcha are far superior.

Well, I find your reaction to Johannson to be very surprising, but we all have our own impressions.  I do like Walcha's but have not heard Rogg.  Are you referring to the EMI or Harmonia Mundi recordings by Rogg?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 13, 2010, 02:44:37 PM
QuoteWell, but by that logic we should have everything that includes someone doing anything differently than anyone else. Which is just about the argument to have all sets rather than discriminate. But if discriminate we must (and we must, to some degree or another), the question is: Is that which Jacob offers so different and so important that he ought to be chosen over any? all? some? other organists and their collections---even if the sound is not satisfactory, making it more difficult to listen to the music?

I do not claim, that Jacob´s set is the only one to have. But for someone owning five or six other sets (=Scarpia), Jacobs set may be interesting and often rewarding supplementary listening.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2010, 02:49:07 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 01:41:36 PM
Well, I find your reaction to Johannson to be very surprising, but we all have our own impressions.  I do like Walcha's but have not heard Rogg.  Are you referring to the EMI or Harmonia Mundi recordings by Rogg?
I think Don is referring to the Harmonia Mundi recordings.
Dunno 'bout them myself. Only have 3 discs with Rogg (1 HM, 2 EMI), but no Trio Sonatas.

I personally like Marie-Claire Alain's recording in the early nineties on the Schnitger-organ of the Der Aa-Kerk in Groningen, NL. But maybe that one is officially OOP (I know her nineties integral is). The organ is a great factor in this admiration, btw.

Here's a recent recording with Benjamin Alard that quickly convinced me in a positive way, though one might feel that the bass (pedal part) could have been a bit stronger. On the other hand: it gives the whole performance a more 'chamber music'-like impression.
The Aubertin-organ is a beauty, IMHO.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Trio-Sonatas-Organ/dp/B002DMIJNS
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 13, 2010, 02:53:09 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 05:16:21 AM
My criteria was simple.  When I listened to the Jacob set, I felt I hated Bach. 

No performer can make me hate the composer, and when you - based upon your own reaction - warn against Jacobs set, you are perhaps generalizing too much.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 13, 2010, 03:18:25 PM
Quote from: premont on January 13, 2010, 02:44:37 PM
I do not claim, that Jacob´s set is the only one to have.

God forbid!  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 13, 2010, 03:27:12 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 13, 2010, 02:49:07 PM
Here's a recent recording with Benjamin Alard that quickly convinced me in a positive way, though one might feel that the bass (pedal part) could have been a bit stronger. On the other hand: it gives the whole performance a more 'chamber music'-like impression.

This is exactly why I think 16F in the pedal should be banned in these works, at least in the slow movements, and many performers seem to think similarily. Based upon your ealier recommendation I have ordered the Allard CD from Amazon UK a week ago, but even if it was advertised that it was in stock, it is now for unexplained reasons in backorder.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 13, 2010, 03:27:40 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 01:41:36 PM
Well, I find your reaction to Johannson to be very surprising, but we all have our own impressions.  I do like Walcha's but have not heard Rogg.  Are you referring to the EMI or Harmonia Mundi recordings by Rogg?

Harmonia Mundi.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 13, 2010, 03:28:18 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 13, 2010, 03:18:25 PM
God forbid!  :)

Yes, certainly a completists nightmare. :o :o :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2010, 03:35:27 PM
Quote from: premont on January 13, 2010, 03:28:18 PM
Yes, certainly a completists nightmare. :o :o :D
Thank the Lord I'm not a completist!

Oh, got 2 mails from Amazon yesterday and today: both Hurford and Vad are on their way! 2 Bach integrals, 35 discs, thus far from complete. ;D

Love that biscuit, btw.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2010, 03:38:51 PM
Quote from: premont on January 13, 2010, 03:27:12 PM
This is exactly why I think 16F in the pedal should be banned in these works, at least in the slow movements, and many performers seem to think similarily. Based upon your ealier recommendation I have ordered the Allard CD from Amazon UK a week ago, but even if it was advertised that it was in stock, it is now for unexplained reasons in backorder.
Should listen to it again, but I'm not sure if the not-so-loud bass is caused by the choice of registration. Could be a recording issue. Anyway: sometimes it seems that the balance is (too?) positive towards the manual parts.
But it didn't really distract me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 03:40:03 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 13, 2010, 03:35:27 PM
Thank the Lord I'm not a completist!

Oh, got 2 mails from Amazon yesterday and today: both Hurford and Vad are on their way! 2 Bach integrals, 35 discs, thus far from complete. ;D

Love that biscuit, btw.

Yikes, Hurford is available again.  When I was looking for it about 6 months ago nobody seemed to have it.  I was fed up with all of those "authentic" organs and wanted a cycle on some modern organs that actually work properly.  But I think I have too many cycles by now to justify another.   :'(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2010, 03:47:48 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 03:40:03 PM
Yikes, Hurford is available again.  When I was looking for it about 6 months ago nobody seemed to have it.  I was fed up with all of those "authentic" organs and wanted a cycle on some modern organs that actually work properly.  But I think I have too many cycles by now to justify another.   :'(

I love authentic organs!

My favourite Bach integrals (Ewald Kooiman, Bram Beekman) were recorded at a splendid selection of old rickety heavy breathers.

And luckilly there are loads of them in my neighbourhood!

YES, WE'RE ALL DIFFERENT!

:P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 13, 2010, 03:49:35 PM
I tend to love all organs; organists are a different matter.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2010, 03:51:40 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 13, 2010, 03:49:35 PM
I tend to love all organs; organists are a different matter.

I can live with that. :-*

(If they're nice & kind people, I might love them anyway, even if they ruin dear mr. Bach.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 13, 2010, 04:04:10 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 03:40:03 PM
...wanted a cycle on some modern organs that actually work properly. 

If you can wait, we surely some day shall see (or hear) a recording on electronic organ. I suppose, that will work properly in your sense.

At least some French nerd has recorded Bach´s harpsichord partitas on electonic organ. I acquired it because I thoght it was played on pipe organ. But phew, that is history.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 13, 2010, 05:25:28 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 13, 2010, 03:35:27 PM
Thank the Lord I'm not a completist!

Oh, got 2 mails from Amazon yesterday and today: both Hurford and Vad are on their way! 2 Bach integrals, 35 discs, thus far from complete. ;D

Love that biscuit, btw.

I have the original Hurford's 5 volumes of JS Bach Organ Works at 3 CD's per volume.  These may be the only complete Bach Organ Works that I have assembled volume by volume instead of shooting for the big box.  Still hope to tackle the Weinberger set and the Koopman set before the winter is over.     ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 13, 2010, 11:02:42 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 08:19:11 AM
There are also a number of outstanding individual discs, such as Richter's collections of DG and Decca, and Johannson's Trio Sonatas (Hanssler).

Quote from: Bulldog on January 13, 2010, 09:31:03 AM
I agree about Richter, but not Johannson.  I find his Trio Sonatas disc rather heavy and drab, the same opinion I hold for his other Bach discs for Haenssler.  For the Trio Sonatas, Rogg or Walcha are far superior.

FWIW I'm another fan of Johannson's Trio Sonatas.  :)

BTW Don, what do you mean with "drab" ? Untransparent?

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2010, 03:07:31 AM
Quote from: Que on January 13, 2010, 11:02:42 PM
FWIW I'm another fan of Johannson's Trio Sonatas.  :)

BTW Don, what do you mean with "drab"? Untransparent?
AFAIK, drab = monotonous, dull.

I dunno Johannsen's Trio Sonatas, but I do know his rendering of the Neumeister Chorales, also part of the Hänssler Bach Edition. Those performances are transparent, and also .... not extremely exciting (being a soft-minded guy, I try to avoid the word "drab" ;)). But in those early chorales this approach works well.
I have to say though, that I generally prefer to listen to them just before going to sleep .... :-\
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 14, 2010, 05:10:32 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 14, 2010, 03:07:31 AM
AFAIK, drab = monotonous, dull.

I dunno Johannsen's Trio Sonatas, but I do know his rendering of the Neumeister Chorales, also part of the Hänssler Bach Edition. Those performances are transparent, and also .... not extremely exciting (being a soft-minded guy, I try to avoid the word "drab" ;)). But in those early chorales this approach works well.
I have to say though, that I generally prefer to listen to them just before going to sleep .... :-\

What I like about Johannson's recording of the sonatas is the transparency.  The trio sonatas contains the most delectable examples of free counterpoint from Bach and in Johansson's recording I can hear all of the voices with a level of clarity I haven't found in other recordings.  A combination of recording quality, the instrument, the registration, and Johannson's articulation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Père Malfait on January 14, 2010, 05:11:15 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 13, 2010, 03:49:35 PM
I tend to love all organs; organists are a different matter.

Hey! Now wait just a minute . . .  :D :P

The organ world can certainly be cliquish, and some organists can be real pieces of work (the same, of course, can be said for any group), and resolutely unmusical, to boot. Just not all of us.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 14, 2010, 06:34:42 AM
Quote from: Que on January 13, 2010, 11:02:42 PM
FWIW I'm another fan of Johannson's Trio Sonatas.  :)

BTW Don, what do you mean with "drab" ? Untransparent?

Q

No, nothing to do with transparency.  I find him a little dull and lacking spirit.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: KevinP on January 14, 2010, 06:38:14 AM
Call me low class, but I still get a chuckle from this thread's title.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 14, 2010, 06:42:51 AM
Quote from: KevinP on January 14, 2010, 06:38:14 AM
Call me low class, but I still get a chuckle from this thread's title.

Looking at it that way, the title should be "Bach's Organ No Longer Works".

By the way, I forgot to mention my favorite recording of the Trio Sonatas.  E. Power Biggs on Sony; he plays the pedal harpsichord.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 14, 2010, 08:01:27 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 14, 2010, 06:42:51 AM
Looking at it that way, the title should be "Bach's Organ No Longer Works".

By the way, I forgot to mention my favorite recording of the Trio Sonatas.  E. Power Biggs on Sony; he plays the pedal harpsichord.

My favorite is this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MGfENQ0-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
(Trio Lezard, three reed players)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 14, 2010, 08:12:48 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 14, 2010, 08:01:27 AM
My favorite is this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MGfENQ0-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
(Trio Lezard, three reed players)

Purists will be tracking us down. :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 14, 2010, 08:28:53 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 14, 2010, 08:12:48 AM
Purists will be tracking us down. :D

I assume they will be armed with flintlocks, so I'm not worried.   ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2010, 01:28:34 PM
Recently I heard the Fugue in G minor, BWV 578, played by 4 saxophones, and also (if I'm not mistaken) the 3-part Ricercar from Das musikalische Opfer, BWV 1079 (without the baritone sax).
That was great!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 18, 2010, 06:27:39 AM
Both Hurford and Vad have arrived at da house.

In short:
After a weekend of listening to both of them, I can say that I'm very happy with these purchases.

Especially Hurford is adding something to my collection. Apparently he's in love with the reed stops of the various intruments he's playing, which gives his performances a bold and intense character .... and I like that. :)
Yes, he plays with legato, though not all the time, and in this case I really don't mind about that. Compared to his compatriots Preston, Herrick and Bowyer, I would say (after selected listening of course) that I definitely prefer Hurford. Together with Herrick, I think Hurford is the most communicative musician of these four. But sometimes I find Herrick too 'soft', when I'm in need of more power. :)

About Knud Vad: indeed (sigh of relief), a hybrid (SA)CD set!
All right, rather old-fashioned readings, with a lot of legato, though with (IMHO of course) a good touch for registrations and in general no slackening in most non-choral works.
Live recordings apparently (the odd mistake here & there, some coughing from the audience), but .... the sound quality is really very good! This Marcussen organ in the Sorø Church (Denmark) appears to be a better instrument than the Marcussen one that Bowyer is playing (Sct. Hans Kirke, Odense, Denmark).
If one is getting the nerves when listening to HIP-Bach and old organs, this integral might be a good choice. The luxurious booklet, in which every single work gets a short description, is a nice bonus!

I admit: I paid only 26 euro for this (including shipping), which appears to be a real stroke of luck. I don't think I would be interested in this integral at full-price costs.
IMO, Hurford is definitely more worthwhile.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 18, 2010, 06:36:24 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 18, 2010, 06:27:39 AM
Both Hurford and Vad have arrived at da house.

In short:
After a weekend of listening to both of them, I can say that I'm very happy with these purchases.

Especially Hurford is adding something to my collection. Apparently he's in love with the reed stops of the various intruments he's playing, which gives his performances a bold and intense character .... and I like that. :)
Yes, he plays with legato, though not all the time, and in this case I really don't mind about that. Compared to his compatriots Preston, Herrick and Bowyer, I would say (after selected listening of course) that I definitely prefer Hurford. Together with Herrick, I think Hurford is the most communicative musician of these four. But sometimes I find Herrick too 'soft', when I'm in need of more power. :)

About Knud Vad: indeed (sigh of relief), a hybrid (SA)CD set!
All right, rather old-fashioned readings, with a lot of legato, though with (IMHO of course) a good touch for registrations and in general no slackening in most non-choral works.
Live recordings apparently (the odd mistake here & there, some coughing from the audience), but .... the sound quality is really very good! This Marcussen organ in the Sorø Church (Denmark) appears to be a better instrument than the Marcussen one that Bowyer is playing (Sct. Hans Kirke, Odense, Denmark).
If one is getting the nerves when listening to HIP-Bach and old organs, this integral might be a good choice. The luxurious booklet, in which every single work gets a short description, is a nice bonus!

I admit: I paid only 26 euro for this (including shipping), which appears to be a real stroke of luck. I don't think I would be interested in this integral at full-price costs.
IMO, Hurford is definitely more worthwhile.

How many CD's does the Hurford set have?  I have 5 volumes at 3 CD each, the original release.  Each volume is in a fatboy CD jewel case.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 18, 2010, 06:53:57 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 18, 2010, 06:36:24 AM
How many CD's does the Hurford set have?  I have 5 volumes at 3 CD each, the original release.  Each volume is in a fatboy CD jewel case.

17 discs (probably new track listing).
Here's a link:
http://www.amazon.com/Organ-Works-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B0000041KD/ref=sr_1_37?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1263829967&sr=1-37
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 18, 2010, 07:29:04 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 18, 2010, 06:53:57 AM
17 discs (probably new track listing).
Here's a link:
http://www.amazon.com/Organ-Works-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B0000041KD/ref=sr_1_37?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1263829967&sr=1-37

It has been at least 15 years since I bought all those volumes.  My collection may be missing one volume, Vol. 6, which was almost impossible to find IIRC.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2010, 07:18:00 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 13, 2010, 03:49:35 PM
I tend to love all organs; organists are a different matter.
Or recording engineers.

Sure, the Duke University Chapel (Chapel Hill, NC) is a large building .... but is it really inevitable to make a decent Flentrop organ sound like it's been recorded in an enormous swimming pool?

(http://i48.tinypic.com/24l3ic8.jpg)

Of course it doesn't make me hate neither composer nor performer (the latter in this case: Joan Lippincott) .... but unfortunately the sound of an outta space cistern makes any satisfactionary listening quite impossible, IMO.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 29, 2010, 12:39:54 AM
A big, sturdy, well wrought hands-on interpretation by Andrea Marcon. Much to admire, but also at times too slow and ponderous, especially for works by the young Bach. Wonderful historical organ of the Klosterkirche Muri, Aargau, Switzerland, built by Thomas Schott 1619-1630.

(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092087000.jpg) (http://www.murikultur.ch/webautor-data/45/Schottsche-Orgel-Klosterkirche-Muri-etwas-dunkler_0.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 29, 2010, 08:23:07 AM
Quote from: Que on January 29, 2010, 12:39:54 AM
A big, sturdy, well wrought hands-on interpretation by Andrea Marcon. Much to admire, but also at times too slow and ponderous, especially for works by the young Bach. Wonderful historical organ of the Klosterkirche Muri, Aargau, Switzerland, built by Thomas Schott 1619-1630.

Having owned this 2CD set for nine years but never having listened to it - because I did not really enjoy Marcon´s two other CDs i nthe Haenssler series - I decided to give it a listen to day. But I can not honestly say, that Marcon is my cup of tea. His playing is directed towards effect and external brilliance, and when the music does not lend itself easily to such treatement, and sometimes also when it does, he does not seem to know what to do with the music, and some disagreable pedantic traits appears in his playing, making listening a mixed experience, even if his playing from a formal poimt of view is scholary. You have to go far to find a similar lightweight Canzona or a similar leaden Allabreve. I do not think, he captures the spirit of this music, and I also very much miss some passion and urgency in his playing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 29, 2010, 11:00:48 AM
Quote from: premont on January 29, 2010, 08:23:07 AM
Having owned this 2CD set for nine years but never having listened to it - because I did not really enjoy Marcon´s two other CDs in the Haenssler series - I decided to give it a listen to day. But I can not honestly say, that Marcon is my cup of tea. His playing is directed towards effect and external brilliance, and when the music does not lend itself easily to such treatement, and sometimes also when it does, he does not seem to know what to do with the music, and some disagreable pedantic traits appears in his playing, making listening a mixed experience, even if his playing from a formal poimt of view is scholary. You have to go far to find a similar lightweight Canzona or a similar leaden Allabreve. I do not think, he captures the spirit of this music, and I also very much miss some passion and urgency in his playing.

Very much agree with your points - well put! :)

In fact, after the run-through this morning I decided to put it on the "rejection" pile.  ::)

To quote our Don (never got used to "Bulldog" - please consider changing it back.  :)):
Marcon's performances will not be to everyone's tastes. He is with little exception forceful, serious, and slow. Nuances are at a minimum.Many collectors would consider his readings of the sledgehammer variety.The man never lets up; he grabs and pounds his way either into your heart or he could give you a major headache. If there is any opportunity to deliver power and force, Marcon usually takes advantage. Concerning the slow tempos he uses, I logically know that he's slow. However, the power of the performances easily erases any feeling of slowness. This is Bach with a bold and heavy hand, and I doubt that listeners will go away with neutral opinions of the interpretations. They are of the love it or hate it variety. Personally, I tend to love Marcon's readings, although listening in somewhat small chunks might be the best way to approach the set. Full review HERE (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Organ-Early-Marcon.htm).

Count me in for the headache category.. :-\

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 29, 2010, 11:22:05 AM
Quote from: Que on January 29, 2010, 11:00:48 AM
Very much agree with your points - well put! :)

In fact, after the run-through this morning I decided to put it on the "rejection" pile.  ::)

To quote our Don (never got used to "Bulldog" - please consider changing it back.  :)):
Marcon's performances will not be to everyone's tastes. He is with little exception forceful, serious, and slow. Nuances are at a minimum.Many collectors would consider his readings of the sledgehammer variety.The man never lets up; he grabs and pounds his way either into your heart or he could give you a major headache. If there is any opportunity to deliver power and force, Marcon usually takes advantage. Concerning the slow tempos he uses, I logically know that he's slow. However, the power of the performances easily erases any feeling of slowness. This is Bach with a bold and heavy hand, and I doubt that listeners will go away with neutral opinions of the interpretations. They are of the love it or hate it variety. Personally, I tend to love Marcon's readings, although listening in somewhat small chunks might be the best way to approach the set. Full review HERE (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Organ-Early-Marcon.htm).

Count me in for the headache category.. :-\

Q

Understood.  I remember that review and love the set, finding only the Canzona not to my liking.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2010, 12:50:12 PM
Que (& others): thankx for 'bumping' my favourite thread.
Marcon's 2cd is now ordered at the old-fashioned library.

I myself have been listening quite a lot to Lionel Rogg's Die Kunst der Fuge this week, and with great pleasure!
I also decided to give the spatial disc of Joan Lippincott another chance. I think her playing is fine, but due to the acoustics it's almost impossible for me to say anything about her phrasing, articulation and so on. I really don't mind some reverberation, but in this recording it keeps on audible during the entire program. The organ sound is drowning in it. A missed opportunity, IMO.

I think that the Hänssler collection does deliver some gems, from what I've heard so far (which isn't all that much, to be honest). The Leipzig Chorales by Bine Katrine Bryndorf and some Weimar stuff by Wolfgang Zerer were very much to my likings. The Neumeister Chorales by Johannsen were OK (transparent, I like that), though not very exciting.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 29, 2010, 01:10:39 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 29, 2010, 12:50:12 PM
Que (& others): thankx for 'bumping' my favourite thread.
Marcon's 2cd is now ordered at the old-fashioned library.
Why? I bet you will not like it.

Quote from: Marc on January 29, 2010, 12:50:12 PM
I myself have been listening quite a lot to Lionel Rogg's Die Kunst der Fuge this week, and with great pleasure!
So have I, inspired by you (even the day I had listened to three other AoF´s beforehand)- and with equal pleasure I suppose. This is a musically very satisfying interpretation. The only thing about it I do not like is the recording of the organ. So much more as I have listened to several recitals played on this organ in the real world, and I can not recognize the sound on the recording. In the church the stops blend much better, still leaving a very transparent (polyphonic) sound-picture. The reeds are not so prominent and the sound of the principals is much more beautiful.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 29, 2010, 01:30:05 PM
Quote from: premont on January 29, 2010, 01:10:39 PM
Why? I bet you will not like it.

I'll be interested in Marc's opinion of the Marcon set, having no idea what he might think of it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2010, 02:11:18 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 29, 2010, 12:50:12 PM
Que (& others): thankx for 'bumping' my favourite thread.
Marcon's 2cd is now ordered at the old-fashioned library.
Quote from: premont on January 29, 2010, 01:10:39 PM
Why? I bet you will not like it.
Dear Premont, you know me: every time you're negative about a recording, I'm eager to get it! ;D

Seriously now: I like the program of the disc, and I'm still interested in a wide variety of different musicians playing Bach's organ. But yes, you might be right with your premature conclusion (casu quo 'bet' ;)), because in many previous occasions you and I shared more or less the same taste. That's why I didn't order it at a shop for 25 euro or more (or maybe less), but for a couple of euros at the library. 8)
If the recording makes me >:( .... I won't tape nor buy it. If the recording makes me :-\, I might tape it and relisten again (and again) to 'finally' draw my conclusions. If the recording makes me :D, I will certainly tape it and who knows, maybe even buy it when the time is right. ;)

Mind you: I very rarely throw discs into the refuse-bin. In some cases it takes time to appreciate a certain recording, you know. People grow older, and sometimes do experience changes in their taste.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 29, 2010, 03:28:08 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 29, 2010, 02:11:18 PM

Mind you: I very rarely throw discs into the refuse-bin. In some cases it takes time to appreciate a certain recording, you know. People grow older, and sometimes do experience changes in their taste.

I was thinking the same thing last night concerning a Bach recording of Art of Fugue performed by Sebastien Guillot on Naxos.  I bought it a couple of years ago and didn't care for it much after a few listenings.  Well, I gave it another spin last night and enjoyed it a lot.  Yes, keep those recordings!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 30, 2010, 01:03:17 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 29, 2010, 12:50:12 PM
I think that the Hänssler collection does deliver some gems, from what I've heard so far (which isn't all that much, to be honest). The Leipzig Chorales by Bine Katrine Bryndorf and some Weimar stuff by Wolfgang Zerer were very much to my likings. The Neumeister Chorales by Johannsen were OK (transparent, I like that), though not very exciting.

Wolfgang Zerer - seconded.  :) I also quite like Johannsen's ClavierÜbung BTW. And don't forget Martin Lücker: strong but sensitive and intelligent, articulated playing, but maybe a touch too scholary - Bach was an organ virtuoso and from my perspective he like to "play", so there should be some FUN in there as well! :) The recording by Lücker that I'm listening now:

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Hanssler-BA091.jpg) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Frankfurt_Katharinenkirche_Orgelprospekt_1990.jpg/521px-Frankfurt_Katharinenkirche_Orgelprospekt_1990.jpg)

Martin Lücker on the Rieger Organ (1990) of the Katherinenkirche, Frankfurt am Main, Germany.

Seems Don and I agree on this one  :), see his review here (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Organ-Var-Lucker.htm).
The new organ sounds pretty good BTW, quite natural and great acoustic though still too "glitzy" & bright, and somewhat missing an individual character/ "face". It was built for both Baroque & Romantic music - I doubt if one can have it both ways like that.

I'm currently reevaluating this series, so to be continued! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 04:11:21 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 29, 2010, 03:28:08 PM
I was thinking the same thing last night concerning a Bach recording of Art of Fugue performed by Sebastien Guillot on Naxos.  I bought it a couple of years ago and didn't care for it much after a few listenings.  Well, I gave it another spin last night and enjoyed it a lot.  Yes, keep those recordings!
Same here.
Good example, btw. I needed a couple more listening sessions with that one, too.
And I'm also able now to value Wolfgang Rübsam's playing in his second Bach integral (also Naxos). OK, this cycle will never be my favourite, but when I bought my first copy (must be around 20 years ago) I really disgusted it. :P

Quote from: Que on January 30, 2010, 01:03:17 AM
Wolfgang Zerer - seconded.  :) I also quite like Johannsen's ClavierÜbung BTW. And don't forget Martin Lücker: strong but sensitive and intelligent, articulated playing, but maybe a touch too scholary - Bach was an organ virtuoso and from my perspective he like to "play", so there should be some FUN in there as well! :) The recording by Lücker that I'm listening now:

Martin Lücker on the Rieger Organ (1990) of the Katherinenkirche, Frankfurt am Main, Germany.

Seems Don and I agree on this one  :), see his review here (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Organ-Var-Lucker.htm).
The new organ sounds pretty good BTW, quite natural and great acoustic though still too "glitzy" & bright, and somewhat missing an individual character/ "face". It was built for both Baroque & Romantic music - I doubt if one can have it both ways like that.

I'm currently reevaluating this series, so to be continued! :)
Yep, most of this series is on my wishlist, too. But I will take it slowly, so that I can read your valuable opinions about them first! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 30, 2010, 04:43:43 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 30, 2010, 04:11:21 AM
Yep, most of this series is on my wishlist, too. But I will take it slowly, so that I can read your valuable opinions about them first! :)

I think modesty on my part is called for: my experience and knowledge with recordings of Bach organ's music does not match yours by a long shot! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 05:15:44 AM
Quote from: Que on January 30, 2010, 04:43:43 AM
I think modesty on my part is called for: my experience and knowledge with recordings of Bach organ's music does not match yours by a long shot! :)
Very kind words, mister Q.

:-*

;)

But honestly: it's been since about a year now that I 'seriously' started to listen to organ music, so .... please let's be cautious about assumed knowledge. But of course, listening experience is growing, and in many cases this stimulates one's knowledge, too. Also visiting some organ demonstrations in some Groningen churches last summer has certainly helped, not to mention helpful notes by members like Premont and Bulldog (and all the others I forgot).

The only thing I can 'state' for sure is: the organ, and especially Bach's oeuvre for this instrument (and other baroque stuff), is giving me tremendous pleasure & satisfaction! :)
And it doesn't bore me at all, listening to works like BWV 562 eight days a week! ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 30, 2010, 05:25:55 AM
Quote from: Que on January 30, 2010, 04:43:43 AM
I think modesty on my part is called for: my experience and knowledge with recordings of Bach organ's music does not match yours by a long shot! :)

Q

Modesty is a virtue compared with some who claims to know it all.  I only have 7 versions of Complete Bach Organ Works, including the very rare cycle by Lionel Rogg on EMI Electrola 18 LP-set, which has NEVER been released on CD.  I also have many CD singles on various Bach organ works by various artists and most of the cycles by Preston and Marie-Claire Alain.  The only other cycle I hope to get is the last cylce recorded by Alain, which appears to be OOP for the moment.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 09:54:28 AM
I'm looking for a set of Bach's organ works that are historically informed in terms of registration, etc (I am mostly ignorant about this subject, however).
Which are the best?

I have Fagius, Rogg, and Walcha of course. All of them I enjoy, but my understanding is that only the first of these is really HIP. I've seen Fagius cited as a solid standard, for which there are few complaints but not necessarily the loudest accolades.

I've read through most of this thread, but am still unsure as to which represent the best of the (most) HIP recordings (and what constitutes HIP in organ playing in the first place, beyond recreating baroque registration and using restored organs).

Thanks!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 30, 2010, 09:59:52 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 09:54:28 AM
I'm looking for a set of Bach's organ works that are historically informed in terms of registration, etc (I am mostly ignorant about this subject, however).
Which are the best?

I have Fagius, Rogg, and Walcha of course. All of them I enjoy, but my understanding is that only the first of these is really HIP. I've seen Fagius cited as a solid standard, for which there are few complaints but not necessarily the loudest accolades.

I've read through most of this thread, but am still unsure as to which represent the best of the (most) HIP recordings (and what constitutes HIP in organ playing in the first place, beyond recreating baroque registration and using restored organs).

Thanks!

I suppose you only have a few CD recordings by Rogg and not the Complete Bach Organ Works, which is only available on LP to the best of my knowledge.  I have that set on EMI Electrola.  I also have the set by Hans Fagius via the mammoth 155 CD-set on BC ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 30, 2010, 10:20:12 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 09:54:28 AM
I'm looking for a set of Bach's organ works that are historically informed in terms of registration, etc (I am mostly ignorant about this subject, however).
Which are the best?

I have Fagius, Rogg, and Walcha of course. All of them I enjoy, but my understanding is that only the first of these is really HIP. I've seen Fagius cited as a solid standard, for which there are few complaints but not necessarily the loudest accolades.

I've read through most of this thread, but am still unsure as to which represent the best of the (most) HIP recordings (and what constitutes HIP in organ playing in the first place, beyond recreating baroque registration and using restored organs).

Thanks!

For your convenience I'm quoting the very 1st post of this thread wwith valuable recommendations by Premont on this:

Quote from: premont on April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM
Que, here is my list of some HIP recordings, which are played in HIP style on properly restored Northern or German baroque organs. and which do not constitute parts of complete cycles. The number of candidates is small, - almost all uncompromising HIP recordings are parts of integral recordings.

Collections of chiefly choral-free works:

Ton Koopman 6 CD set for Novalis (already recommended by Que).

Rainer Oster 1 CD for Arte Nova on  the Schnitger organ of Sc.Jacobi, Hamburg, (Arte Nova 74321 63644 2).

Stefan Johannes Bleicher  2 CDs for EBS on the Gabler organ in Weigarten and the Holzhey organ in Weissenau respectively.
On the same Holzhey organ he also recorded a Bach-CD for Arte Nova.

Franz Raml  1 CD for Oehms on the Silbermann organ in the Church of the Court, Dresden.

Jean-Charles Ablitzer 2 CDs for Harmonic Records, France on the Treutmann organ, Goslar-Grauhof.

Hubert Meister 1 CD for Motette on the Silbermann organs in Grosshartmannsdorf and Forchheim (contains the triosonates).

Martin Sander 1 CD for Fermate records on the Wagner organ in Trondheim

Matthias Eisenberg and Felix Friedrich 1 CD each (sold as double midprice set) for Capriccio on the Trost organ in Altenburg.

Robert Clark 2 CDs for Calcante on the Hildebrand organ in Naumburg.

Choralbound works:

Orgelbüchlein:
Rene Saorgin on French Harmonia Mundi.

Clavierübung III:
Edgar Krapp for Berlin Classics on the Wagner organs in Brandenburg and Treuenbrietzen.
or
Felix Friedrich for Motette on the Trost organ in Altenburg.


The CDs of some of the uncompromising HIP Integrals are sold separately. This is true of the Haenssler cycle, the Weinberger cycle (CPO) and the Kooiman cycle (Coronata).


I'd like to add Ton Koopman's cycle on Warner/Teldec - I've enjoyed that greatly, see my comments HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,638.msg377763.html#msg377763) . Caveat emptor: Premont does not approve of that Koopman cycle!  8) ;) Go back and forth from that post to read more about the cycles Fagius & Koopman.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 30, 2010, 10:24:47 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 30, 2010, 09:59:52 AM
I suppose you only have a few CD recordings by Rogg and not the Complete Bach Organ Works, which is only available on LP to the best of my knowledge.  I have that set on EMI Electrola.  I also have the set by Hans Fagius via the mammoth 155 CD-set on BC ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VTRPQ06TL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Complete (not quite) Bach Organ works
Lionel Rogg
(2nd cycle)
Perfectly available
as used copies in France (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B000027OAA?ie=UTF8&tag=ionartsfr-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1642&creative=19458&creativeASIN=B000027OAA)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 10:38:40 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 09:54:28 AM
I'm looking for a set of Bach's organ works that are historically informed in terms of registration, etc (I am mostly ignorant about this subject, however).
Which are the best?

I have Fagius, Rogg, and Walcha of course. All of them I enjoy, but my understanding is that only the first of these is really HIP. I've seen Fagius cited as a solid standard, for which there are few complaints but not necessarily the loudest accolades.

I've read through most of this thread, but am still unsure as to which represent the best of the (most) HIP recordings (and what constitutes HIP in organ playing in the first place, beyond recreating baroque registration and using restored organs).

Thanks!
I'll be very cautious with my modest advice, because I never really went that deep into solid HIP-constitutions and so-called 'correct' registrations.
In many cases these are important issues in HIP-playing, AFAIK: avoiding too much legato, avoiding too many registration changes during one piece, and avoiding too many tempo changes during one piece (agogics).
Important also: playing with vivid phrasing and articulation.

If I'm not mistaken, our honoured member Premont owns about 127 Bach integrals, and he's a great admirer of HIP, so he might be your most important advisor, as Que has suggested just before me. ;)

If Fagius is entirely 'HIP' is not really for me to decide. His integral was reissued by a Dutch company (Brilliant Classics), as part of the 2000 Bach Collection, and HIP-influenced Dutch reviewers were not so enthousiastic about this set. I recall that the Dutch music magazine Luister called Fagius 'autodidact' and 'accused' him of using both wrong registrations (too many mixture stops) and organs (too many neo-baroque instruments).
(But I'm afraid that there was also a certain amount of chauvinism involved.)

It is true, though (IMHO), that there are some very worthwhile HIP-influenced organ discs of Dutch organists, like Gustav Leonhardt, Ewald Kooiman, Bram Beekman, Leo van Doeselaar, Wim van Beek, Ton Koopman et cetera et cetera.

My favourites, Kooiman & Beekman, who both did a very interesting integral, are unfortunately OOP.
To some Ton Koopman is too jolly, funny, witty and uneven .... but maybe you'll like him. His set (Teldec/Warner), played on historic instruments, is available for a nice price.

Leonhardt is very good IMO. He never did an integral, but who cares? I think he's top notch, for what it's worth. ;)
Here are two interesting Bach issues by him:
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Works-Gustav-Leonhardt/dp/B0000029Y5
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Organ-Gustav-Leonhardt/dp/B00005NYAT

Leo van Doeselaar and Wim van Beek made many recordings for small Dutch organ labels, and they're very hard to get outside the Netherlands.

Bernard Foccroulle, a Belgian organist who plays historic instruments, is also HIP-influenced, and his integral is reissued at budget price (Ricercar).

Also very interesting is the CPO-integral of German organist Gerhard Weinberger. Again: a (very) wide variety of historic organs and also a broad selection of Bach's organ works, including many doubtful and spurious ones. Again, I'll be cautious, but if I compare his playing with f.i. Leonhardt or Foccroulle, I would say that Weinberger is more 'stiff'.

But there is much more, of course, for instance from the Hänssler label, as was discussed during the last two days. Problem is: everything I 'know' has already been mentioned in this large thread. I only tried to summarize a couple of things, combined with my own preferences. I discovered these preferences by just buying both single discs and integrals 'from scratch' .... but I understand that not everyone is willing and able to do such a thing out of the blue.

Good luck with your research!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 10:45:08 AM
Oh, before I forget:
I already mentioned his name a couple of times, but IMO American George Ritchie (label: Raven) is a rather good choice, too. He doesn't play on historic instruments, but his style is certainly very HIP-influenced. His integral is very 'small', only 11 discs, neglecting a lot of 'doubles' (almost similar chorale pieces f.i.) and many dubious works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 11:00:48 AM
Thanks for all the advice so far.

Yes, the Rogg set I own is the Harmonia Mundi (not quite complete organ works). I like that one very much, but I suppose he is probably outdated in terms of performance practice. That's why I am looking for a new set.

I have heard some Ton Koopman samples from Teldec (not Novalis/Brilliant). I gather it depends on the piece, but yeah sometimes his ornamentation is a little too busy and random sounding for my taste, much like on his harpischord recordings.

Leonhardt, obviously I love. His playing is always probing and tasteful. I have heard only a little bit of his organ recordings. But I thought he wasn't too great with his feet?

The Foccroulle is intriguing. Basically, what I'm looking for is something akin to the Vogel Buxtehude but for Bach. Good scholarship, extremely well played but with no obvious shortcomings.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 11:11:01 AM
I do not have this cycle myself, but you might want to check the internet for The Bach Circle in Three Volumes, played by Harald Vogel: compositions of J. S. Bach and of his contemporaries, predecessors and successors on (neo-) baroque instruments. It has been issued by Loft Recordings. Of course this ain't a Bach integral, but still .... (dunno if it's still available, though).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 11:26:03 AM
Some copies of the Vogel seem to be floating around.

Foccroulle's Bach and especially his Buxtehude seems to be well reviewed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 11:42:48 AM
I'm trying to track down the review I read that said Leonhardt wasn't the best organist with his feet. Perhaps this is completely untrue? I would be interested to know more opinions on Leonhardt as an organist.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 12:05:27 PM
Here's a summary of an interview in which Leonhardt states the harpsichord is my life; the organ is [...] a luxurious extra to me.

http://www.hetorgel.nl/e2000-05c.htm

I do know about Ton Koopman and his short legs, which forced him to play the pedals in the HIP-way (no heels). ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 12:39:11 PM
Thanks. Yeah, I also read that about koopman.

What about this review of the Weinberger?
http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12023

Does Distler--normally the piano guy--not know what he's talking about?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 30, 2010, 01:15:21 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 12:39:11 PM
Thanks. Yeah, I also read that about koopman.

What about this review of the Weinberger?
http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12023

Does Distler--normally the piano guy--not know what he's talking about?

No, with all respect of Distler, he probably does not. I can't remember having seen much organ reviews by him. Being familiar with a sizeable chunk of Weinberger's cycle THIS REVIEW (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Mar09/Bach_organ_7773632.htm) seems much closer to reality IMO.

BTW, when you made the Buxtehude/Vogel comparison, my first thought was: that sounds like Weinberger. Vogel's Buxtehude is too scholarly to my taste, same goes to some extent for Weinberger. Great instruments BTW, I do not share the reservations in the linked review on that point.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 01:25:39 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 12:39:11 PM
Thanks. Yeah, I also read that about koopman.

What about this review of the Weinberger?
http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12023

Does Distler--normally the piano guy--not know what he's talking about?

That's not for me to 'decide'.
However, I personally find Weinberger, compared to f.i. Fagius and Walcha, slightly uneven, too. This also goes for the recording sound (sometimes very closely miked, too close for my likings). I haven't heard all Volumes of this set, but from what I've heard so far I certainly wouldn't disagree in a strong way with this review.
Nevertheless I would be more friendly in the end with my 'marking'. Artistic quality: 8; sound quality: 7.

About Foccroulle: if you're interested, here are some 'highlights' from a Dutch review I read some months ago (by a certain A. van Kralingen).

Well polished, introvert and honest interpretations. Some lovely poetic playing in various chorales, and using 'terrace-dynamics' (sic) in the grand Preludes & Fugues. But Foccroulle plays without the 'drive' of MC Alain, the monumentality & emotion of Piet Kee and the baroque-influenced rhetorics of Ewald Kooiman.
Nice playing in the Trio Sonates: no rushing, with only a modest use of mixtures.
Lovely selection of historic organs; every disc has an appealing tracklist (combination of free & chorale works).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 30, 2010, 01:28:51 PM
The more coments I read about Kooiman, the more I'd like to hear him. I hope Aeolus would be interested in licensing one of his earlier cycles for reissue, now their own plans have been aborted by his unfortunate decease. Or maybe... Brilliant Classics? ::)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 01:38:00 PM
Quote from: Que on January 30, 2010, 01:28:51 PM
The more coments I read about Kooiman, the more I'd like to hear him. I hope Aeolus would be interested in licensing one of his earlier cycles for reissue, now their own plans have been aborted by his unfortunate decease. Or maybe... Brilliant Classics? ::)
I've been so lucky in 2009 to get Kooiman's entire integral, thanks to good and helpful friends, Dutch eBay-related sites (Marktplaats) and libraries.

Here's at least one Dutch link (Premont did post it some time ago, too) that still has 7 volumes of Kooiman's Coronota integral available:
http://www.landgoedgerianna.nl/index.php?keyword=Kooiman&Search=Zoeken&Itemid=1&option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse

Also available: some copies of the OOP set with Bram Beekman.
Four 2-cd's and one sampler:
http://www.landgoedgerianna.nl/index.php?keyword=beekman&Search=Zoeken&Itemid=1&option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse

I do know that there is a possibility to order from abroad. Maybe a mail will help interested 'foreigners' out: info@landgoedgerianna.nl.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 01:49:24 PM
Thanks again guys.

I appreciate the Foccroulle reviews, Marc.

I'm also interested in further negative criticisms on Fagius, just to be informed.

Whom do you enjoy for Buxtehude, Que?

Kooiman does sound interesting (and as mentioned OOP). Does anyone love him other than the Dutch?  ;)
What are his strong points?

It seems Premont recommends Alain II (not restored organs) & III (baroque organs, right, so I would prefer), Weinberger, Walcha mono, and the Hanssler discs.

He also says,
"Weinberger is as to style among the "avant garde" HIPs, Alain is a more "middle of the road" HIP."
I am interested in an elaboration of this observation.

Overall, it appears that organ playing in bach is a very contentious issue.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 02:00:50 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 01:49:24 PM
Overall, it appears that organ playing in bach is a very contentious issue.
Sure it is, but doesn't that count for all kinds of art where taste and admiration is an important issue?
I'm sure this is nothing new to you, but plz release yourself from illusions that the absolute (HIP-) truth in Bach (organ) playing does exist, no matter how convincing a review might sound.

About Kooiman & a possible selection concerning the Dutch link:
his Volumes 4 & 5 are really interesting gems! The entire Orgel-Büchlein in a very convincing interpretation IMO (the first time I listened to it I 'suddenly' noticed that my eyes were slowly getting wet :-[), combined with youthful free works like BWV 533, 534, 535 & 551, the Pastorale BWV 590 and both Canzona & Allabreve BWV's 588 & 589. Played on a rather unknown historic organ, built in 1756 by the Dutch organ builder Matthijs van Deventer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 02:13:42 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 01:49:24 PM
Kooiman does sound interesting (and as mentioned OOP). Does anyone love him other than the Dutch?  ;)
What are his strong points?
Here's a short, yet informative link, part of a very nice and informative Bach site:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Kooiman-Ewald.htm

About his strong points: plz, it's midnight here, and my brains feel tired and empty. :P
Maybe it's the combination of straight-forward playing and sheer poetry.

Your question belongs to those likeable questions that are so hard to explain .... but I do know that each time I listen to Kooiman's Bach a certain tune of a certain KC comes to my mind: That's the way I like it!. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 30, 2010, 02:18:05 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 01:49:24 PM
Thanks again guys.

I appreciate the Foccroulle reviews, Marc.

I'm also interested in further negative criticisms on Fagius, just to be informed.

Whom do you enjoy for Buxtehude, Que?

Kooiman does sound interesting (and as mentioned OOP). Does anyone love him other than the Dutch?  ;)
What are his strong points?

It seems Premont recommends Alain II (not restored organs) & III (baroque organs, right, so I would prefer), Weinberger, Walcha mono, and the Hanssler discs.

He also says,
"Weinberger is as to style among the "avant garde" HIPs, Alain is a more "middle of the road" HIP."
I am interested in an elaboration of this observation.

Overall, it appears that organ playing in bach is a very contentious issue.

No more so than for Bach's other genres or other master composers.

Some observations:

Fagius - nothing special
Vogel/Loft - very special
Weinberger - 2 thumbs up
Rogg/Harmonia Mundi - Love it
Hanssler Series - A must
Berlin Classics Series - A must
Koopman - Hit or miss
Walcha - Essential
Hurford - Excellent
Herrick - Excellent
Ritchie - Excellent
Bowyer - Best to avoid
Jacob - Hit or miss
Preston - Hit or miss
Rubsam - Essential
Tillmanns - Avoid
Biggs - Essential
Suzuki/ClavierUbung III - A must
Germani - Excellent
Murray - Avoid
Porter - A must
Richter - A must
Leonhardt - A must
Weir - Hit or miss
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 02:35:00 PM
Thank you all again, and thanks for that list, Bulldog (Don)

Yes, I read the Bach Cantatas site all the time, so that was my first stop to finding out about Kooiman.

While I would agree that all art and recreative arts are contentious, I think Bach organ works can be a little more estoteric in performance and enigmatic in effect than average. Comparable to Beethoven's symphonies, because HIP and non-HIP can result in some pretty rigid opinions and "schools" On top of that, most people just do not listen to organ and expert critics are harder to find.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 02:36:34 PM
Some observations of Don!

HA!
In general, I like Bach's organ music played in a straightforward no-nonsense style .... more or less like Don / Bulldog's style here. ;D

Dunno 'bout all of them, but let's respond with a quickie:

Fagius - nothing special. NO way! Thumbs up!
Vogel/Loft - very special. Dunno, but it doesn't surprise me. I rate Vogel very high.
Weinberger - 2 thumbs up. Well, let's say: essential.
Rogg/Harmonia Mundi - Love it. Dunno, but liked his EMI 2cds so far, and also his HM Christmas issue.
Hanssler Series - A must. Agreed, from what I've heard of them.
Berlin Classics Series - A must. Agreed, very interesting Silbermann collection of organs before most of them were restored.
Koopman - Hit or miss. The discussions on this board are a proof of that.
Walcha - Essential. No doubt.
Hurford - Excellent. I would say: rather good in a non-HIP way.
Herrick - Excellent. Not entirely my taste, but he's a communicator indeed.
Ritchie - Excellent. Agreed 100%.
Bowyer - Best to avoid. Yeah, probably. Too shallow in the end.
Jacob - Hit or miss. From his 3-cd sampler I would say: not bad at all.
Preston - Hit or miss. Great Trio Sonatas. For the rest: avoid.
Rubsam - Essential. Especially his OOP Philips integral. His Naxos is something special though: hit or miss.
Tillmanns - Avoid. Dunno.
Biggs - Essential. I own only 1 Power Biggs disc and I like it. Best name for an organist, btw!
Suzuki/ClavierUbung III - A must. Indeed a nice issue. Should listen to it again.
Germani - Excellent. Dunno.
Murray - Avoid. Agreed, except for some well-played chorales.
Porter - A must. Dunno.
Richter - A must. Not my taste.
Leonhardt - A must. Agreed.
Weir - Hit or miss. Her Organ Mass is very good IMO!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 30, 2010, 03:08:57 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 02:35:00 PM
... On top of that, most people just do not listen to organ and expert critics are harder to find.

... that's true and weird at the same time. I have frequently felt that in the organ music we find the most personal, intimate Bach; but this music requires much time to reveal its mysteries and that's not easy in the modern world. These works are like the ciphered diary of J.S. Bach.

:)
 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 30, 2010, 03:36:22 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 30, 2010, 02:18:05 PM
No more so than for Bach's other genres or other master composers.

Some "observations":

specialveryspecialhitormisstwothumbsupspecialexcellentessentialextraessentialetc.

Now can we get a distinction between "A must", "Excellent", "Two Thumbs Up", and "Essential"?
Did you leave all the Marie-Claire Alains out for a reason? Ditto her student, whatshammacallhim... the one with the silly font on the box. Stockmeier, Knud...
(I assume that you do actually have every available cycle... am I wrong?)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 30, 2010, 08:12:26 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 30, 2010, 02:36:34 PM
Some observations of Don!

HA!
In general, I like Bach's organ music played in a straightforward no-nonsense style .... more or less like Don / Bulldog's style here. ;D

Dunno 'bout all of them, but let's respond with a quickie:

Fagius - nothing special. NO way! Thumbs up!
Vogel/Loft - very special. Dunno, but it doesn't surprise me. I rate Vogel very high.
Weinberger - 2 thumbs up. Well, let's say: essential.
Rogg/Harmonia Mundi - Love it. Dunno, but liked his EMI 2cds so far, and also his HM Christmas issue.
Hanssler Series - A must. Agreed, from what I've heard of them.
Berlin Classics Series - A must. Agreed, very interesting Silbermann collection of organs before most of them were restored.
Koopman - Hit or miss. The discussions on this board are a proof of that.
Walcha - Essential. No doubt.
Hurford - Excellent. I would say: rather good in a non-HIP way.
Herrick - Excellent. Not entirely my taste, but he's a communicator indeed.
Ritchie - Excellent. Agreed 100%.
Bowyer - Best to avoid. Yeah, probably. Too shallow in the end.
Jacob - Hit or miss. From his 3-cd sampler I would say: not bad at all.
Preston - Hit or miss. Great Trio Sonatas. For the rest: avoid.
Rubsam - Essential. Especially his OOP Philips integral. His Naxos is something special though: hit or miss.
Tillmanns - Avoid. Dunno.
Biggs - Essential. I own only 1 Power Biggs disc and I like it. Best name for an organist, btw!
Suzuki/ClavierUbung III - A must. Indeed a nice issue. Should listen to it again.
Germani - Excellent. Dunno.
Murray - Avoid. Agreed, except for some well-played chorales.
Porter - A must. Dunno.
Richter - A must. Not my taste.
Leonhardt - A must. Agreed.
Weir - Hit or miss. Her Organ Mass is very good IMO!

I agree about Weir's Organ Mass, but her Leipzig Chorales are not as fine.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 30, 2010, 08:17:34 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 30, 2010, 03:36:22 PM
Now can we get a distinction between "A must", "Excellent", "Two Thumbs Up", and "Essential"?
Did you leave all the Marie-Claire Alains out for a reason? Ditto her student, whatshammacallhim... the one with the silly font on the box. Stockmeier, Knud...
(I assume that you do actually have every available cycle... am I wrong?)

Yes, you're wrong.  I'm not familiar with Stockmeier or Knud.  Concerning Alain, I only have an Art of Fugue on Erato that I don't like much.

Distinctions?  "A must" and "essential" beat "excellent" and "two thumbs up" by a large margin. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 09:03:17 PM
Which are the best issues from Hanssler?

I thank ye.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 11:18:07 PM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 09:03:17 PM
Which are the best issues from Hanssler?
Well, personally I like Wolfgang Zerer and Bine Katrine Bryndorf. But my 'knowledge' of this series is limited.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 11:56:56 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 30, 2010, 03:36:22 PM
Now can we get a distinction between "A must", "Excellent", "Two Thumbs Up", and "Essential"?
Why not?
Three stars, five stars, a perfect 10, average, rosettes, et cetera. Lots of 'distinguished' music magazines know their disctinctions, too. ;)
And check out all those different emoticons one can choose from on this board!

Confession: I also have a weak spot for 'lists', even though most of them are just quick fun.

Quote from: jlaurson
Did you leave all the Marie-Claire Alains out for a reason? Ditto her student, whatshammacallhim... the one with the silly font on the box. Stockmeier, Knud...
Whatshammacallhim must be Olivier Vernet. :D
And Knud .... Knud Vad.

Anyway, mr. Laurson, your contribution has awoken me again! ;D

Here's a snobbish personal list (beware!), based on about a year of very alternating listening (and reading caused by personal historical interest): sometimes just one disc, sometimes many discs.

Essential (which doesn't necessarily mean 'personal fave'):
Albert Schweitzer (although I personally only know his famous BWV 565), Helmut Walcha, Walter Kraft, Karl Richter, Edward Power Biggs, Lionel Rogg, Peter Hurford, Marie-Claire Alain, Gustav Leonhardt, Wolfgang Rübsam, Daniel Chorzempa, Ton Koopman, Ewald Kooiman, Bram Beekman, Georgie Ritchie, Gerhard Weinberger.

Personal faves, yet not entirely essential ;):
Wolfgang Stockmeier, Hans Fagius, Bernard Foccroulle, Harald Vogel, Olivier Vernet, Wolfgang Zerer.

Interesting and worthwhile IMO:
Peter Sykes, Gillian Weir, Joan Lippincott, Christopher Herrick, Olivier Latry, Bine Katrine Bryndorf, André Isoir, Esther Sialm, Werner Jacob, Hans Ole Thers, Thiemo Janssen, Knud Vad, Heinz Balli, Hans Otto, René Saorgin, Masaaki Suzuki, Stanislas Deriemaeker.

Very chauvinistic picks:
Wim van Beek (excellent!!), Leo van Doeselaar (excellent!!), Piet Wiersma (excellent!!), Sietze de Vries, Piet Kee, Cor Ardesch, Stef Tuinstra, Leonore Lub, Janny de Vries, Jan Hage, Cor van Wageningen.
Some of them (like Van Doeselaar and Kee) have recorded for international recording companies, but the lot of them is only available on small Dutch labels, which means in most cases that they're very difficult to get.

Not very interesting (IMHO):
Kevin Bowyer (though his integral is also very 'complete'), Jean Guillou, Ivan Sokol, Simon Preston, Michel Chapuis, Herbert Tachezi, Hans Vollenweider, Michael Murray, Virgil Fox, Miklós Spányi, the Duruflé's.

Apologies to all the artists I forgot!
But I certainly hope to expand my listening experiences in the forthcoming years! :D
(For instance: some Italians, like Alessio Corti.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 31, 2010, 12:32:39 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 01:49:24 PM
Whom do you enjoy for Buxtehude, Que?


The complete series by Jean-Charles Ablitzer (Harmonic Records). See HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3769.msg376862.html#msg376862) and samples HERE (http://www.micmacmusic.com/advanced_search_result.php?search_in_description=1&inc_subcat=1&keywords=ablitzer+buxtehude&x=0&y=0). Haven't tried Koopman yet but intend to! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 31, 2010, 08:15:28 AM
This is all very helpful.

Thanks, Que, for the Ablitzer resource.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 31, 2010, 11:59:27 PM
I really like the Foccroulle samples. I also admire Weinberger's straight approach. The Alain on youtube is impressive, particularly the video of her playing BWV 540.

Decisions, decisions.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 01, 2010, 01:22:43 AM
Quote from: Clever Hans on January 31, 2010, 11:59:27 PM
I really like the Foccroulle samples. I also admire Weinberger's straight approach. The Alain on youtube is impressive, particularly the video of her playing BWV 540.

Decisions, decisions.
I wish you luck. :)

Of course, you may also decide NOT to go for an integral, but to pick some good & interesting single discs first.

About the MC Alain integral(s): she never recorded the Neumeister Chorales, unlike Foccroulle and Weinberger.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 01, 2010, 09:05:01 AM
Not mentioned in recent previous posts: Jacques van Oortmerssen, who started an integral for the Vanguard label in 1994. Now in license by Challenge Classics, he is continuing his cycle, recently releasing Volume 9.
Strict, no nonsense HIP playing, maybe too 'cold' for some listeners, but after some more listening his playing might grow in one's appreciation. At least that has happened to me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on February 01, 2010, 12:15:36 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 01, 2010, 01:22:43 AM
I wish you luck. :)

Of course, you may also decide NOT to go for an integral, but to pick some good & interesting single discs first.

About the MC Alain integral(s): she never recorded the Neumeister Chorales, unlike Foccroulle and Weinberger.

Yes, that's good advice. I do like integrals, though, to see how a given personality expresses across a body of work.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 01, 2010, 07:28:19 PM
Into volume I of Vernet's Bach integral ( I have I, II and V). Many works in there I don't know well or that, in all fairness, are memorable from the musical standpoint. But Vernet's touch - and his choice of instruments  - make for captivating listening. Whenever I listen to him, I have the feeling I'm listening to an organ - not an interpreter. Organ lovers will know what I mean. For the others  :D , let me say that I consider this instrument to be the only one that can compare to the human voice in its range of colours and capacity for expression.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 02, 2010, 02:33:21 PM
Quote from: Barak on February 01, 2010, 07:28:19 PM
Into volume I of Vernet's Bach integral ( I have I, II and V). Many works in there I don't know well or that, in all fairness, are memorable from the musical standpoint. But Vernet's touch - and his choice of instruments  - make for captivating listening. Whenever I listen to him, I have the feeling I'm listening to an organ - not an interpreter. Organ lovers will know what I mean. For the others  :D , let me say that I consider this instrument to be the only one that can compare to the human voice in its range of colours and capacity for expression.
I certainly enjoy Olivier Vernet and his Bach cycle. But I don't find him less interpreting than, say, Kooiman, Beekman, Van Oortmerssen, Foccroulle, Weinberger, Alain, ..... (et al?).

About the expression of the organ: yes, I have that tremendous experience, too. Although I admit that the comparison with the human voice didn't come in my mind that fast. To me, it's still more of a 'imitatio instrumenticae'. ;)
In fact, I personally believe that almost every instrument is a sort of an imitation of the human voice. And of all those instruments, the organ is maybe the most expanded imitation of a bunch of other imitations. :)

As much as I love the instrument called organ, if I had to choose between "Ach bleib bei uns, Herr Jesu Christ" BWV 6 (3rd movement: chorale with soprano voice & violoncello piccolo) or the 'Schübler' organ arrangment BWV 649, I certainly would go for the cantata version.

To me, the human voice still remains the most expressive and moving instrument of them all. But, of course, that's a personal opinion.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2010, 02:50:38 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 26, 2010, 07:18:00 AM
Sure, the Duke University Chapel (Chapel Hill, NC) is a large building .... but is it really inevitable to make a decent Flentrop organ sound like it's been recorded in an enormous swimming pool?

(http://i48.tinypic.com/24l3ic8.jpg)

Of course it doesn't make me hate neither composer nor performer (the latter in this case: Joan Lippincott) .... but unfortunately the sound of an outta space cistern makes any satisfactionary listening quite impossible, IMO.
Well, the smaller Miller Chapel of the Princeton Theological Seminary delivers a more intimate sound from the Paul Fritts organ there. So, now I can really hear an organ! :)

(http://i46.tinypic.com/255813k.jpg)

Again, I like Joan Lippincott's playing, but during the most shivering pieces of the 'Great Organ Mass' (Kyrie, Gott heiliger Geist BWV 671 & Aus tiefer Not schrei ich zu dir BWV 686) she's not able to dig really deep.
I'd say her approach is rather distant. This works slightly better in the manual chorales and also the Schüblers. All in all, a nice 2-cd to have, but not essential nor mandatory.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 07, 2010, 03:08:31 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 07, 2010, 02:50:38 PM
Again, I like Joan Lippincott's playing, but during the most shivering pieces of the 'Great Organ Mass' (Kyrie, Gott heiliger Geist BWV 671 & Aus tiefer Not schrei ich zu dir BWV 686) she's not able to dig really deep.

Quote from: Marc on February 07, 2010, 02:57:54 PM
Perhaps.
For interactive communication, one needs at least two persons. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2010, 03:13:49 PM
You're very sharp late at night!

8)

So, second (third!) person, do you have a communicative opinion yourself?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 07, 2010, 03:21:52 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 07, 2010, 03:13:49 PM
You're very sharp late at night!

8)

So, second (third!) person, do you have a communicative opinion yourself?

Sorry, the temptation was to big. :-[ ;)

As to Joan Lippincott´s degree of deepness I can not tell. Have not heard her. I have considered acquiring her Triosonatas, Toccatas and Clavierübung III, but the CDs are not easy to find in Europe. You may know a source though?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2010, 03:30:09 PM
Quote from: premont on February 07, 2010, 03:21:52 PM
Sorry, the temptation was to big. :-[ ;)

As to Joan Lippincott´s degree of deepness I can not tell. Have not heard her. I have considered acquiring her Triosonatas, Toccatas and Clavierübung III, but the CDs are not easy to find in Europe. You may know a source though?
I ordered both of them via Amazon.de. The name of the shop was Dodax-Online.
But there were only a few left in stock.

On the other hand: you might want to give the Gothic website a try.

http://www.gothic-catalog.com/

I haven't done that myself yet, but my experiences with Raven (another American label) are very good. I ordered three or four issues with them and they were deliverd swiftly, without added import taxes. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 07, 2010, 03:35:05 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 07, 2010, 03:30:09 PM

On the other hand: you might want to give the Gothic website a try.

http://www.gothic-catalog.com/

I haven't done that myself yet, but my experiences with Raven (another American label) are very good. I ordered three or four issues with them and they were deliverd swiftly, without added import taxes. :)

Sheer luck, I am sure. This would not happen in the north.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2010, 03:38:30 PM
Quote from: premont on February 07, 2010, 03:35:05 PM
Sheer luck, I am sure. This would not happen in the north.
Yes, and I sure feel lucky about it.
OTOH: these items were sent by the producing label itself, without distributive trading. Could that be the cause of my luck?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 07, 2010, 03:50:09 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 07, 2010, 03:38:30 PM
Yes, and I sure feel lucky about it.
OTOH: these items were sent by the producing label itself, without distributive trading. Could that be the cause of my luck?

Are you talking from the US to the Netherlands?

Customs opens only what they think may contain items of value exceeding "small purchases". This is not EU-harmonized, to my knowledge, but I reckon it is similar among countries. Officially exempted from tax are items of value below somewhere between 20 and 30 Euros (including shipping, insanely)--though there seems an unofficial agreement not to act on items below 40 Euros (excluding shipping). There are also notably greater liberties made during Christmas time.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2010, 03:59:04 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 07, 2010, 03:50:09 PM
Are you talking from the US to the Netherlands?

Customs opens only what they think may contain items of value exceeding "small purchases". This is not EU-harmonized, to my knowledge, but I reckon it is similar among countries. Officially exempted from tax are items of value below somewhere between 20 and 30 Euros (including shipping, insanely)--though there seems an unofficial agreement not to act on items below 40 Euros (excluding shipping). There are also notably greater liberties made during Christmas time.
I told this story before, if I remember it well: I had to pay an extra amount of import tax only once. It was an Amazon.com item, which was stored in Germany btw, and when it arrived in NL I had to pay that extra amount. The post guy said: it's a matter of (bad) luck: how secure the Custom officers were working at Schiphol Airport, et cetera. It was a box set below 40 Euros, but I'm not sure if it was around December last year.

But the items from Raven were sent to me without any problems. I read once or twice at Dutch websites that if a postage package says Amazon, then Custom officers would react as if they had consumed a dozen cups of coffee. :)

It's bloody protectionism anyway!
(That's my opinion, which I share.)

And now I'm off to bed, with Joan Lippincott, errr .... organ music, by Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 07, 2010, 04:02:16 PM
Quote from: premont on February 07, 2010, 03:21:52 PM
As to Joan Lippincott´s degree of deepness I can not tell. Have not heard her. I have considered acquiring her Triosonatas, Toccatas and Clavierübung III, but the CDs are not easy to find in Europe. You may know a source though?

In my experience CD Universe has been an excellent store to purchase those discs by American organists (Ritchie, Lippincott, Rackich): http://www.cduniverse.com/classical.asp?performer=Joan+Lippincott&exact=1

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2010, 04:05:19 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 07, 2010, 04:02:16 PM
In my experience CD Universe has been an excellent store to purchase those discs by American organists (Ritchie, Lippincott, Rackich): http://www.cduniverse.com/classical.asp?performer=Joan+Lippincott&exact=1

I'm still wide awake! :D

Antoine, it's about online stores in Europe, because of those [censored] import taxes!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 07, 2010, 04:07:07 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 07, 2010, 03:59:04 PM
It's bloody protectionism anyway!
(That's my opinion, which I share.)


You're absolutely right. It's protectionism, it inhibits trade and thus wealth creation. It's a narrow-minded but annoyingly stubborn hangover from mercantilist times that costs, not protects jobs. To add insult to injury, it costs the tax payer more money to pay customs officials' pay (and the involved admin. and logistics costs) than they get back from charging tax (VAT and/or custom/import taxes) to non-commercial buyers. Don't get me started. Oh, wait. Too late. You did. I could rant about this at great length. Oh, wait... I did that, too:

http://www.forbes.com/2007/10/15/trade-free-pieler-oped-cx_gap_1016trade.html (http://www.forbes.com/2007/10/15/trade-free-pieler-oped-cx_gap_1016trade.html)
http://www.opposingviews.com/arguments/free-trade-is-truly-progressive (http://www.opposingviews.com/arguments/free-trade-is-truly-progressive)
etc. et al.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 07, 2010, 04:12:53 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 07, 2010, 04:05:19 PM
Antoine, it's about online stores in Europe, because of those [censored] import taxes!

Yes, I understand that, but it's a fact that European stores don't import those discs and CD Universe is rather cheap.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 13, 2010, 11:59:02 PM
This morning, I've been revisiting this disc:

(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092092000.jpg) (http://www.murikultur.ch/webautor-data/45/Schottsche-Orgel-Klosterkirche-Muri-etwas-dunkler_0.jpg)

Andrea Marcon plays the wonderful historical organ of the Klosterkirche Muri, Aargau, Switzerland, built by Thomas Schott 1619-1630.

And I don't get it: why gives Marcon's issue "Ohrduf, Lüneburg, Arnstadt" (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,638.msg388495.html#msg388495), played on the same organ BTW, me a splitting headache and is this such a wonderful recording?  ??? I mean, Marcon's style is still big, sturdy and digging, but way not as relentless and ponderous, more airy and more moments of subtlety and poetry. And considerably more up tempo as well! :o

Yes, all in all: Marcon at his best. Get it. :) Still one issue by him in this series to go BTW. 8)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 14, 2010, 10:06:02 AM
Quote from: Que on February 13, 2010, 11:59:02 PM
This morning, I've been revisiting this disc:

(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092092000.jpg) (http://www.murikultur.ch/webautor-data/45/Schottsche-Orgel-Klosterkirche-Muri-etwas-dunkler_0.jpg)

Andrea Marcon plays the wonderful historical organ of the Klosterkirche Muri, Aargau, Switzerland, built by Thomas Schott 1619-1630.

And I don't get it: why gives Marcon's issue "Ohrduf, Lüneburg, Arnstadt" (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,638.msg388495.html#msg388495), played on the same organ BTW, me a splitting headache and is this such a wonderful recording?  ??? I mean, Marcon's style is still big, sturdy and digging, but way not as relentless and ponderous, more airy and more moments of subtlety and poetry. And considerably more up tempo as well! :o

Yes, all in all: Marcon at his best. Get it. :) Still one issue by him in this series to go BTW. 8)

Q

Might be that the music on each program is a factor.  As it happens, I definitely prefer the set that gives you a headache.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 14, 2010, 10:13:24 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 14, 2010, 10:06:02 AM
Might be that the music on each program is a factor.  As it happens, I definitely prefer the set that gives you a headache.

;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 14, 2010, 11:10:49 PM
Well, why not make it a Andrea Marcon sequel! :D

(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092090000.jpg) (http://www.murikultur.ch/webautor-data/45/Schottsche-Orgel-Klosterkirche-Muri-etwas-dunkler_0.jpg)

Again on the marvelous historical organ of the Klosterkirche Muri, Aargau, Switzerland, built by Thomas Schott 1619-1630.

Some famous works on this one. As mentioned before Marcon's style is quite big, sturdy and digging. In the disc opener, the Präludium und Fugue BWV 543 Marcon "pulls out all the stops" with overpowering result. Marcon's playing has loads of character and is well articulated. Again, he plays nicely up tempo. Another winner IMO. :)

Don, I wonder if the main problem with his Ohrdruf, Lüneburg, Arnstadt-set was the tempo, and the (to my ears) ponderousnes and lack of articulation logical results of that. Of course you yourself liked the result, but why would he play those earlier works so slow?

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 15, 2010, 09:48:57 AM
Quote from: Que on February 14, 2010, 11:10:49 PM
Well, why not make it a Andrea Marcon sequel! :D

(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092090000.jpg) (http://www.murikultur.ch/webautor-data/45/Schottsche-Orgel-Klosterkirche-Muri-etwas-dunkler_0.jpg)

Again on the marvelous historical organ of the Klosterkirche Muri, Aargau, Switzerland, built by Thomas Schott 1619-1630.

Some famous works on this one. As mentioned before Marcon's style is quite big, sturdy and digging. In the disc opener, the Präludium und Fugue BWV 543 Marcon "pulls out all the stops" with overpowering result. Marcon's playing has loads of character and is well articulated. Again, he plays nicely up tempo. Another winner IMO. :)

Don, I wonder if the main problem with his Ohrdruf, Lüneburg, Arnstadt-set was the tempo, and the (to my ears) ponderousnes and lack of articulation logical results of that. Of course you yourself liked the result, but why would he play those earlier works so slow?

Q

Because the Bulldog likes it that way.

Seriously, I didn't find the tempos "so slow", and I'm confident Marcon felt the same.  Although his "New Ideas" and "Heyday" discs are mighty fine, I think Marcon was more at the top of his game with the early works set.  Also, I tend to find that the music on the early works set lent itself more to the severe and powerful approach used by Marcon.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 15, 2010, 12:31:42 PM
Listened this afternoon to the first disc of Marcon's Ohrdruf et al set, and to some parts of the second one.

Impressions:
First: bold and majestic playing of the free works. Maybe too little flamboyance in this young Bach works. No problems with headaches, though. I listened to it with headphones at very modest volume and had a nice time.
Second: very nice and lovely registrations of the chorales, which caused absolutely no headaches at all. ;D
Third: the organ is kinda special, with rather agressive reed stops, but it wouldn't surprise me if Bach himself would have liked it that way, though I realize this is a risky thing to 'claim'.
I remember listening to a Greatest Hits disc (Denon) with the same organ (organist: Heinz Balli), and I myself liked this 17th century instrument from the very beginning.
Fourth: the only thing I miss in Marcon's playing is a certain amount of empathy. Meaning: when I listen f.i. to his chorale playing, it doesn't really move me, despite the wonderful registrations. The fact that he's bold and straightforward doesn't bother me at all, but he's too aloof to deserve (for this moment) a steady place among my 'favourites'.

Overall: a nice issue, and definitely recommandable IMO.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 18, 2010, 03:11:07 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 18, 2010, 06:15:11 AM
Well, Isoir is not precisely the most praised organist in this forum.

I have read on other forum descriptions of Isoir's style ("slightly 'larmoyant', too weepy or at least overtly romantic", "the egomanic Andre Isoir"  :), etc.), but I feel his style as very difficult to define. I don't know the reason why, but I have frequently felt that adjectives like "psychedelic" or "lysergic" ( :o) would be suitable for some parts of his performances, like in some rock music of the sixties and early seventies ... and I like those parts.

Yes, his style is difficult to define, maybe because he hasn´t got a definite style. The word "egomanic"is very well put.  And I find him more earth-bound than overly romantic, and in my ears he doesn´t offer much more than a hurried run through, and he is even sometimes a bit sloppy. He plays as if he says to himself, that he just is going to show those "dummies" that he (technically) is perfectly able to play this music. I recently listened to his BWV 543 and agree that the prelude has got a "lysergic" character, but this distorted way is not how I think the music should be played. The CDs recorded on the Gabler organ in Weingarten are IMO the best of the set, probably because the large organ and opulent acoustics prevent him from playing in his preferred way.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 18, 2010, 07:03:21 PM
It's been some time since I listened to Isoir, but I remember enjoying the Third Clavier-Übung (Gabler-organ Weingarten), his first recording of the Toccatas at the Ahrend organ (Aurich, France) and his rendering of Die Kunst der Fuge.
The latter not being part of the integral box set, though.

In general, I found his integral rather uneven. But I remember he could be very poetic sometimes in the chorales.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 15, 2010, 03:21:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/jphFYgijiuI

Bach - The Art of Fugue (two CDs and a DVD boxed set)
George Ritchie
ORGAN HISTORICAL SOCIETY CATALOGUE (http://www.ohscatalog.org/jsbaartoffu.html)

A brief description:

Following their very successful multimedia pack about organs in the Groningen area, Fugue State Films
http://www.fuguestatefilms.co.uk/projects.html
have just completed three new projects, "The Elusive English Organ" and "Virtuoso Music", twentieth century music from Bridlington Priory, which I haven't seen yet, and "The Art of Fugue / Desert Fugue" which I received a few days ago.

George Ritchie and Christopher Wolff discuss the Art of Fugue, followed by a discussion with two organ builders about the sort of organ best suited for the music, which, they conclude, to their satisfaction (and I am ready to be convinced) is an organ of the kind which they built for the Pinnacle Presbyterian Church in the desert town of Scottsdale, Arizona. George Ritchie speaks of how he was a student of Walcha. He had prepared a chorale prelude in four voices, and Walcha told him to omit the soprano line, to play the alto and bass lines, while singing the tenor line.

It's therefore not surprising that on the two accompanying CDs he plays the 14th Fugue in its incomplete version and then plays it again with Walcha's completion. Christopher Wolff argues that the Fugue was not incomplete - when composing a fugue with four subjects, and two of them inverted in the final section, he could only have done it by working out the closing section first, so it was not "unfinished" but rather the finish was written first and got lost before publication.

The DVD ends with a demonstration and explanation of each of the contrapuncti, in total nearly two hours. Any talk like this has to face the question of what level it should be aimed at. It's my guess that the readers of this forum will not have any difficulty following it, and may perhaps learn a thing or two. My only criticism is that when a few bars of music are shown on the screen and attention is drawn to one bar, the bar numbers displayed often begin AFTER the barline at the end of the bar and continue under the next bar. It's very off-putting until you realise that it is the way that it has been done.

The Art of Fugue is a problem for any recording studio, as it won't fit onto a single CD, but would be very sparse on its own if spread over two CDs. We therefore get, as well, several chorale preludes, some canons and the Canonic Variations on Vom Himmel hoch. The accompanying booklet gives all of the registrations used for the Art of Fugue, but not for the extras.

Very good value at the introductory price of £24.99 (and I didn't get any commission for writing this review).

David Hitchin


:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 16, 2010, 06:03:03 AM
Dear Mr. Marchand,

Thanks a bundle for this informative story!

I already planned to buy the 'Groningen' boxset, and, wallett willing, will do so next summer .... because there will be a possibility to buy it via the Groningen Organ Society, which (a.o.) sells their cd's after organ concerts in the Martinikerk.

The Ritchie/Wolff package is tempting, too. Wolff is a scholar who's able to make difficult things sound rather easy to understand, and Ritchie is a very good Bach organist IMO.

OTOH: I already have a large amount of Künste der Fuge, played at organs. I'm more in need for some harpsichord stuff, to be honest.
But, who knows: wallett willing (again), some day Ritchie & Wolff will be mine, too. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on March 16, 2010, 07:31:44 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 16, 2010, 06:03:03 AM
OTOH: I already have a large amount of Künste der Fuge, played at organs.

It's good that this topic was brought up at this time -- do you have any recommendations (apart from Walcha (Archiv)), and especially played on historical organs? I recently found a 70s recording by Herbert Tachezi, and the only "review" (http://jsbach.org/tacheziartoffugue.html) I have come across is a little bit cryptic.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on March 16, 2010, 11:35:09 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 16, 2010, 07:31:44 AM
It's good that this topic was brought up at this time -- do you have any recommendations (apart from Walcha (Archiv)), and especially played on historical organs? I recently found a 70s recording by Herbert Tachezi, and the only "review" (http://jsbach.org/tacheziartoffugue.html) I have come across is a little bit cryptic.

I have that one on LP.  I tend to like it, but it is played on a very small chamber organ, he sort of thing you could have in your apartment, if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 16, 2010, 12:57:41 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 16, 2010, 07:31:44 AM
It's good that this topic was brought up at this time -- do you have any recommendations (apart from Walcha (Archiv)), and especially played on historical organs? I recently found a 70s recording by Herbert Tachezi, and the only "review" (http://jsbach.org/tacheziartoffugue.html) I have come across is a little bit cryptic.
Yes, cryptic message. Probably meant to advise those who do not know the composition: don't quit listening after 30 seconds .... the best is yet to come! (Or something like that.)

I don't know this AoF-issue by Tachezi, but he's one of my favourite organists .... only if basso continuo playing is concerned. ;)

As a soloist I don't appreciate him that much: my impression is that he's mostly rather stiff, and that he lacks a certain amount of intensity.
I have one Teldec/Telefunken sampler with some 'hits' and also a Mozart issue .... but I don't think there's much more Tachezi to enter the house.

This is one of my faves (Lionel Rogg / EMI), which is a nicely varied (both bold and poetic) interpretation, though not on a historic organ:

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Vivaldi-Concertos/dp/B000TDGAR0/ref=dm_ap_alb1

Rogg also offers both an unfinished AND finished final fugue (like the Ritchie DVD/CD).

On historic organs .... it's difficult to advise, because I think my fave there is Bram Beekman (Lindenberg label), which is alas OOP. But if you want a good, solid HIP-approach on a historic instrument, then you might want to give Gerhard Weinberger a try.
In general, I would say that Weinberger has given us one of the most interesting Bach organ cycles of the last decades .... not always entirely to my likings, but IMO never dull or completely 'besides the point'.
Here's a link to the last volume of his integral, the AoF, including the world premiere recording of the Choral-fantasy which was discovered in 2008 (Bernard Foccroulle followed a few months later):

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Choralfantasie-Nicht-Fugue/dp/B001AUKIZ6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268772447&sr=1-1
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 16, 2010, 04:20:00 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 16, 2010, 06:03:03 AM
Dear Mr. Marchand,

Thanks a bundle for this informative story!

My pleasure, sir!

Quote from: Marc on March 16, 2010, 06:03:03 AM
OTOH: I already have a large amount of Künste der Fuge, played at organs. I'm more in need for some harpsichord stuff, to be honest.

Don't forget to check out the AoF by Sergio Vartolo (and his daughter) on Naxos.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on March 17, 2010, 02:52:37 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 16, 2010, 11:35:09 AM
I have that one on LP.  I tend to like it, but it is played on a very small chamber organ, he sort of thing you could have in your apartment, if I recall correctly.

Really? The pictures here (http://www.kirche-bremen.de/downloads/Die_Ahrend_in_Oberneuland.pdf) -- if it is indeed those of the pipes of organ at BremenOberneuland built by Ahrend and Brunzema -- seem to show a larger instrument.

Quote from: Marc on March 16, 2010, 12:57:41 PM
I don't know this AoF-issue by Tachezi, but he's one of my favourite organists .... only if basso continuo playing is concerned. ;)

As a soloist I don't appreciate him that much: my impression is that he's mostly rather stiff, and that he lacks a certain amount of intensity.
I have one Teldec/Telefunken sampler with some 'hits' and also a Mozart issue .... but I don't think there's much more Tachezi to enter the house.

I also saw a 3-CD set of organ music from the Renaissance and Baroque eras. That seems tempting, however, given that it's less than $10.

Quote
This is one of my faves (Lionel Rogg / EMI), which is a nicely varied (both bold and poetic) interpretation, though not on a historic organ:


http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Vivaldi-Concertos/dp/B000TDGAR0/ref=dm_ap_alb1

Rogg also offers both an unfinished AND finished final fugue (like the Ritchie DVD/CD).

On historic organs .... it's difficult to advise, because I think my fave there is Bram Beekman (Lindenberg label), which is alas OOP. But if you want a good, solid HIP-approach on a historic instrument, then you might want to give Gerhard Weinberger a try.
In general, I would say that Weinberger has given us one of the most interesting Bach organ cycles of the last decades .... not always entirely to my likings, but IMO never dull or completely 'besides the point'.
Here's a link to the last volume of his integral, the AoF, including the world premiere recording of the Choral-fantasy which was discovered in 2008 (Bernard Foccroulle followed a few months later):

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Choralfantasie-Nicht-Fugue/dp/B001AUKIZ6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268772447&sr=1-1

Thanks for those recommendations. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 27, 2010, 12:40:35 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 16, 2010, 04:20:00 PM
[....] Don't forget to check out the AoF by Sergio Vartolo (and his daughter) on Naxos.
Ordered it .... at the library. So hopefully I'll be able to check this one out shortly after Easter!
Have been listening to some AoF stuff last week: Menno van Delft (harpsichord, clavichord), Alessio Corti and Kevin Bowyer. All enjoyable readings, really.
I must admit that I'm growing more used to Bowyer lately .... in a positive way. Main problem remains the cold and impersonal sound of the Marcussen organ in Odense, DK. Combined with Bowyer's rather swift and straightforward playing I'm still convinced that his Bach will never be my favourite .... but, as I said, appreciation is slowly growing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 28, 2010, 09:15:31 AM
Quote from: Que on March 28, 2010, 03:47:18 AM
And having heard the Bach recording on ebs, Arte Nova should do a Bach cycle with him.

Completely agreed. But there are so many distinguished organists who´s Bach integral, I equally would like to hear:

René Saorgin, Francis Chapelet, Louis Thiery, Frantz Ramml, Holm Vogel, Rainer Oster, Martin Sander, Ulrik Spang-Hanssen, Leo van Doeselaar, Wim van der Beek, Jaroslav Tuma, Kåre Nordstoga,- to name a few.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 28, 2010, 09:45:50 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 27, 2010, 12:40:35 PM
Have been listening to some AoF stuff last week: Menno van Delft (harpsichord, clavichord), Alessio Corti and Kevin Bowyer. All enjoyable readings, really.
I must admit that I'm growing more used to Bowyer lately .... in a positive way. Main problem remains the cold and impersonal sound of the Marcussen organ in Odense, DK. Combined with Bowyer's rather swift and straightforward playing I'm still convinced that his Bach will never be my favourite .... but, as I said, appreciation is slowly growing.

The Marcussen organ, Sct.Hans, Odense is indeed IMO a prototype of the cold, overbright and characterless Marcussen organ, a sound in a similar vein as Bovyers playing. And in order to appreciate his non-interventionalist style fully, one must listen to Chapuis and Guillou first.  :)


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 06, 2010, 03:41:17 PM
Have a listen to Dutch organist Piet Wiersma (1946-2003), playing Bach on the Schnitger/Hinsz/Freytag organ of the Village church in Noordbroek, NL.
Part of the (now OOP, except for some rare copies) EuroSound series Bach in Groningen, which was left unfinished after Wiersma's sudden death.

I hope all links work well .... I'm not an experienced uploading guy. :-\

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2roqj3m.jpg)

BWV 551:
http://www.mediafire.com/?odn3jmqky2z
BWV 709:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jzwnytjjxwo
BWV 731:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0zvmmnwonng
BWV 535:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0ynkyjynikh
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 07, 2010, 05:19:00 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 06, 2010, 03:41:17 PM
Have a listen to Dutch organist Piet Wiersma (1946-2003), playing Bach on the Schnitger/Hinsz/Freytag organ of the Village church in Noordbroek, NL.
Part of the (now OOP, except for some rare copies) EuroSound series Bach in Groningen, which was left unfinished after Wiersma's sudden death.

I hope all links work well .... I'm not an experienced uploading guy. :-\

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2roqj3m.jpg)


The links are working fine, Marc. Thanks. I had never listened to Wiersma and he it's definitely another name to consider: expressive, intense, even dramatic. He apparently had great rhetorical skills. Beautiful recorded sound, too. :)   

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 07, 2010, 06:08:53 AM
Just managed to find a copy of the Rubsam set on Philips, which has become legendary because of how rare it is.  Preliminary sampling seems to indicate that it is quite good.  Comments?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on May 07, 2010, 06:30:59 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 06, 2010, 03:41:17 PM
Have a listen to Dutch organist Piet Wiersma (1946-2003), playing Bach on the Schnitger/Hinsz/Freytag organ of the Village church in Noordbroek, NL.
Part of the (now OOP, except for some rare copies) EuroSound series Bach in Groningen, which was left unfinished after Wiersma's sudden death.

I hope all links work well .... I'm not an experienced uploading guy. :-\

BWV 551:
http://www.mediafire.com/?odn3jmqky2z
BWV 709:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jzwnytjjxwo
BWV 731:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0zvmmnwonng
BWV 535:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0ynkyjynikh

Well, the link for 535 worked well. (I haven't downloaded the others yet.) :) Thanks.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 07, 2010, 11:33:17 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 07, 2010, 06:08:53 AM
Just managed to find a copy of the Rübsam set on Philips, which has become legendary because of how rare it is. Preliminary sampling seems to indicate that it is quite good. Comments?
Another OOP issue that should deserve another chance. IMO, it's one of the most inspired and consistent integrals on non-historic instruments, with a more HIP-influenced Rübsam compared to his slower and more eccentric one on Naxos.

But maybe you'd like to wait a little and check this out first. Apparently sickness (I'm having some tummy troubles right now :P) is 'healthy' for the searching skills of ze human brain .... I found this interesting link:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=a9bde7d5f3ec24dcab1eab3e9fa335cada2afa0b1a1c041e
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 07, 2010, 12:08:09 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 07, 2010, 05:19:00 AM
The links are working fine, Marc. Thanks. I had never listened to Wiersma and he it's definitely another name to consider: expressive, intense, even dramatic. He apparently had great rhetorical skills. Beautiful recorded sound, too. :)
From the Dutch Wiki site (quick translation ;)): According to some he wasn't a real Bach-specialist, but others cheered him as a Bach performer with the right sense for tempi and colour. He was especially famous for his choice of registrations.

I think, in the firmly HIP-influenced Bach world in the Netherlands, some people considered him to be too romantic and not playing in the 'right' baroque style. Wiersma also played a lot of romantic and modern organ stuff and certainly did not consider himself a baroque specialist either. But he loved Bach, and he loved the old Groningen organs.

Personally, I truly love Wiersma's Bach. In some pieces I would prefer a faster tempo maybe, but I entirely share the above mentioned opinion about colour and registrations. And his chorale playing really moves me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 07, 2010, 01:08:33 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 07, 2010, 12:08:09 PM
According to some he wasn't a real Bach-specialist, but others cheered him as a Bach performer with the right sense for tempi and colour. He was especially famous for his choice of registrations.

Well, I do not know what a real Bach-specialist is. I do not at all find Wiersma romantic in the usual sense of this word. He is, as far as I can hear, a fine baroque scholar, and I think his intense expressive playing is naturally elaborated from the music. And it is individual and memorable but still unidiosyncratic.

What more can one want?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 07, 2010, 02:02:03 PM
Quote from: premont on May 07, 2010, 01:08:33 PM
Well, I do not know what a real Bach-specialist is. I do not at all find Wiersma romantic in the usual sense of this word. He is, as far as I can hear, a fine baroque scholar, and I think his intense expressive playing is naturally elaborated from the music. And it is individual and memorable but still unidiosyncratic.

What more can one want?
Dear Premont, full agreement here .... :)

Btw: last year I had a short chat with an organ builder from the Groningen area, who wasn't very fond of Wiersma's playing, either. Of course he also visited and visits organ recitals and about Wiersma's concerts he said something like if you've heard one, you've heard them all. I said: well, unfortunately I never had that privilige. And gave him a little smile. Then we both laughed. (He was a nice gentleman, with his own preferences of course.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2010, 09:10:51 AM
One thing Piet Wiersma could have guessed beforehand: playing the Schnitger-Timpe-Van Oeckelen organ in the Groningen Der Aa-kerk for his cycle Bach in Groningen would have been .... difficult, if not impossible. Now, in the year of 2010, this instrument has been in restoration already since 1997 .... most of the time has passed in struggling and discussing about how to deal with the project.

Here are some performances on this organ, issued in 1990 by Lindenberg Books & Music. They went bankrupt in 2008 and now their productions are all officially OOP.

Bernard Winsemius (1945) plays Prelude & Fugue in A-minor BWV 569
http://www.mediafire.com/?d4t2quylmju

Stef Tuinstra (1954) plays Chorale O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig (I think this is a keyboard setting of BWV 401)
http://www.mediafire.com/?y1mwj5yzomd

Winsemius: Trio Sonata in E-minor BWV 528
http://www.mediafire.com/?jdyynlztajn

Winsemius: Chorale Partita Christ, der du bist der helle Tag BWV 766
http://www.mediafire.com/?ozd31zymomu

Tuinstra: Prelude & Fugue in D-minor BWV 539
http://www.mediafire.com/?2kfkqzoow1g

If something is wrong with the links, pleaze let me knøw ....
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 08, 2010, 10:12:50 AM
Does anyone have Andre Isoir's Bach Set?
Or Volume 4 of it?

I'm looking for a CD that is described as: 3 149025 044914 (Harmonia Mundi).
I'm pretty sure that this is actually the Calliope disc here: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=130997 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=130997)
It should contain BWV 530 but also the Choral Prelude BWV 957. Is there a disc with Isoir that definitively contains 957?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 08, 2010, 06:06:59 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 08, 2010, 10:12:50 AM
Does anyone have Andre Isoir's Bach Set?
Or Volume 4 of it?

I'm looking for a CD that is described as: 3 149025 044914 (Harmonia Mundi).
I'm pretty sure that this is actually the Calliope disc here: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=130997 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=130997)
It should contain BWV 530 but also the Choral Prelude BWV 957. Is there a disc with Isoir that definitively contains 957?

I have that Calliope 15-CD set.

Vol. 4 (CAL 3706 "Le monde du choral"): BWV 543, 716, 702, 572,708, 707, 720, 579, 730, 731, 574, 747, 589, 533, 733. Orgue G. Grenzing de l'abbatiale de St. Cyprien en Périgord. Recorded in 1989.

Vol. 12 (CAL 3714 "Sonate en trio 6/ Trois préludes et fugues"): BWV 530, 536, 736, 727, 653b, 943, 728, 546*, 1027ª & 1027*, 539*. Orgue G. Westenfelder de Esch-sur-Alzette/ Orgue J. Ahrend de l'église Saint Lambert d'Aurich (Frise Orientale)*. Recorded in 1979 & 1976.

BWV 957 is not included in that set; I suppose because it was considered spurious for long time.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 08, 2010, 06:12:36 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 08, 2010, 09:10:51 AM
One thing Piet Wiersma could have guessed beforehand: playing the Schnitger-Timpe-Van Oeckelen organ in the Groningen Der Aa-kerk for his cycle Bach in Groningen would have been .... difficult, if not impossible. Now, in the year of 2010, this instrument has been in restoration already since 1997 .... most of the time has passed in struggling and discussing about how to deal with the project.

I, for one, tend to get patient with the current attitude, that it is always preferable to perform Bach on an authentic organ.  I don't see what the clumsy mechanical linkages do to help the music.  Not that I don't see that the correct sonority is required, but a modern organ built to the same ideals as the organs of Bach's time would seem to me to be the ideal instrument.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2010, 09:49:41 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 08, 2010, 10:12:50 AM
Does anyone have Andre Isoir's Bach Set?
Or Volume 4 of it?

I'm looking for a CD that is described as: 3 149025 044914 (Harmonia Mundi).
I'm pretty sure that this is actually the Calliope disc here: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=130997 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=130997)
It should contain BWV 530 but also the Choral Prelude BWV 957. Is there a disc with Isoir that definitively contains 957?
Let me guess:
http://www.bayerische.staatsoper.de/upload/media/200912/28/13/rsys_29129_4b38a7880d0c7.pdf
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/05/music-of-nacho-duates-multiplicity.html
[dead link now]

;D

I think the Bayerische Staatsoper made a mistake in their list of sources.
The Harmonia Mundi label no. is definitely OOP now. But since Isoir's integral was first published by HM in separate discs, the BWV 530 might have been part of that one.
BWV 957 was, as Ton already mentioned, no part of that integral.

Maybe the writers of the pdf-brochure forgot to add this source for BWV 957, played on a Harmonia Mundi issue:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Chorale-Preludes-Manuscript/dp/B000027O54/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273383477&sr=1-1
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on May 08, 2010, 10:10:30 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 08, 2010, 06:12:36 PM
Not that I don't see that the correct sonority is required, but a modern organ built to the same ideals as the organs of Bach's time would seem to me to be the ideal instrument.

But wouldn't you also require to the acoustics of the building that housed it (which usually tends to be a large German Cathedral)?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 08, 2010, 10:17:49 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 08, 2010, 10:10:30 PM
But wouldn't you also require to the acoustics of the building that housed it (which usually tends to be a large German Cathedral)?

I read somewhere that the organs of Bach's time were normally in churches with wooden roofs, which were not particularly reverberant.  In any case, there is nothing preventing a modern organ from being installed in an appropriate venue.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2010, 10:28:52 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 08, 2010, 06:12:36 PM
I, for one, tend to get patient with the current attitude, that it is always preferable to perform Bach on an authentic organ. I don't see what the clumsy mechanical linkages do to help the music. Not that I don't see that the correct sonority is required, but a modern organ built to the same ideals as the organs of Bach's time would seem to me to be the ideal instrument.
Real authentic organs from Bach's time do not exist anymore.

Nevertheless I prefer Bach or any other baroque/classical composer on a (restored) historic organ, because I think those instruments deliver more colour and (indeed) sonority than the modern or most neo-classical ones.
This is just a personal preference. It's not an attitude at all, adapted from some kind of 'general' belief about some kind of 'historical truth' which claims that it is 'always preferable' to use one specific kind of instrument.

So I would say: please enjoy your own preferences, even it's Bach on a perfect sounding 21th century digital synthesizer. I do not have any problems with that. Why should I? But I prefer the 'clumsy' Schnitgers and Silbermanns. ;)

Concerning Bach's own ideals: it's known that Bach f.i. liked the sound of the Hildebrandt organ in the Wenzelkirche at Naumburg very much. Bach and Gottfried Silbermann belonged to the main advisors. The instrument has been thoroughly restored in the period 1993-1996.  So maybe this soundclip comes close to Bach's own preferences .... check it out yourself:

http://www.mediafire.com/?zg40jrennx5

(Aria in F-Major [after Couperin] BWV 587, played by Gerhard Weinberger)

Of course this is just a small example. Volume 15 of Weinberger's integral offers a broad insight in the possibilities of this instrument:

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Works-Vol-15/dp/B0001WGEIE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273385900&sr=1-3

Oh, btw: about the 'clumsy' mechanical linkages. Maybe it would be a nice idea to visit an organ builder in your spare time. IMHO, there's nothing clumsy about the mechanics of (neo-) historic organs. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 01:21:47 AM
QuoteI have that Calliope 15-CD set.

Hello Antoine,

How do you rate that set? Thanks
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 09, 2010, 02:23:30 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 08, 2010, 09:49:41 PM
But since Isoir's integral was first published by HM in separate discs,

Never heard about HM releases of Isoirs Bach integral (and I acquired some of the individual CDs as early as 1982 - on Calliope).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:49:37 AM
Quote from: premont on May 09, 2010, 02:23:30 AM
Never heard about HM releases of Isoirs Bach integral (and I acquired some of the individual CDs as early as 1982 - on Calliope).
Yes, could be a misunderstanding by yours truly of the upcoming link. Maybe CALIOPE is/was a sub-label of Harmonia Mundi France?

Here's a list of Grenzing-organ recordings:

http://www.grenzing.com/cd.cfm?id=MCA

Example: Saint-Cyprien (Dordogne), Francia / Parróquia Saint-Cyprien / André Isoir / Jean-Sébastien Bach, Le Monde du Choral* L'Oeuvre pour Orgue intégral Vol. 4 / 1989, CALIOPE, harmonia mundi france (CAL 9706) 3 149025 040589

The HM labelno. looks like the one that Jens posted before. But the CAL no. is different .... and also different from the one that Ton mentioned. Probably CALIOPE gave different nos. to both the seperate and 'integrated' discs?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 03:09:19 AM
Oh, btw, right now I'm listening to this one:

(http://i41.tinypic.com/2zywieq.jpg)

Helga Schauerte plays Bach, Volume 3.

My first meeting with her in this oeuvre, I only heard one Buttstett issue before.

On first hearings: I think this is another good Bach interpreter, although the Fugues tend to be a bit tame.
About the SQ: a bit dry acoustics, but I like the sound of the Trost organ de la Walpurgiskirche de Großengottern (D). :)

What do the well-informed connaisseurs think about Schauerte's playing?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 09, 2010, 03:31:37 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 08, 2010, 09:49:41 PM
Let me guess:
http://www.bayerische.staatsoper.de/upload/media/200912/28/13/rsys_29129_4b38a7880d0c7.pdf
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/05/music-of-nacho-duates-multiplicity.html
[dead link now]

something has gone funny with my tables... so it had to be taken down.
back later today, i hope.


QuoteI think the Bayerische Staatsoper made a mistake in their list of sources.
The Harmonia Mundi label no. is definitely OOP now.

OOP doesn't make their source-listing a mistake; they obviously took the numbers right off the discs that the choreographer provided them... discs from his collection and many of them OOP, actually. The question is: where are these pieces now... what re-issues.


QuoteBut since Isoir's integral was first published by HM in separate discs, the BWV 530 might have been part of that one.
BWV 957 was, as Ton already mentioned, no part of that integral.

Maybe the writers of the pdf-brochure forgot to add this source for BWV 957, played on a Harmonia Mundi issue:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Chorale-Preludes-Manuscript/dp/B000027O54/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273383477&sr=1-1

I'll try to track BWV 957 down!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 04:28:39 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 09, 2010, 03:09:19 AM
Oh, btw, right now I'm listening to this one:

Helga Schauerte plays Bach, Volume 3.

My first meeting with her in this oeuvre, I only heard one Buttstett issue before.

On first hearings: I think this is another good Bach interpreter, although the Fugues tend to be a bit tame.
About the SQ: a bit dry acoustics, but I like the sound of the Trost organ de la Walpurgiskirche de Großengottern (D). :)
On second thought: in general, I would say: Schauerte is another decent Bach interpreter, but there's not much to get really excited about. After listening, I felt more or less had the same as after listening to Kay Johannsen's recording of the Neumeister Chorales.

Quote from: jlaurson on May 09, 2010, 03:31:37 AM
OOP doesn't make their source-listing a mistake; they obviously took the numbers right off the discs that the choreographer provided them... discs from his collection and many of them OOP, actually. The question is: where are these pieces now... what re-issues.
That's not what I meant, sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I think that the HM no. refers to the original Isoir disc with BWV 530, and that the Bavarian mistake might be forgetting about mentioning the source disc for BWV 957. I'm quite sure that Isoir didn't make a recording of that one. There are some issues 'outside' his integral, but I couldn't find them there, either. So, who knows, maybe the BWV 957 source is indeed the Joseph Payne disc. I admit it's a wild guess, though.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 09, 2010, 04:43:16 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:49:37 AM
Yes, could be a misunderstanding by yours truly of the upcoming link. Maybe CALIOPE is/was a sub-label of Harmonia Mundi France?

Here's a list of Grenzing-organ recordings:

http://www.grenzing.com/cd.cfm?id=MCA

Thanks for the interesting Grenzing list.  :)

Probably Harmonia Mundi France is just the distributor of the Calliope CDs abroad.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 09, 2010, 04:53:41 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 09, 2010, 03:09:19 AM
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2zywieq.jpg)

Helga Schauerte plays Bach, Volume 3.

What do the well-informed connaisseurs think about Schauerte's playing?

I have considered an investigation of Helga Schauerte´s ongoing Bach integral, but have not dared to do so yet. The reason is, that I have tried her Buxtehude, which I  find terribly contrieved, almost unlistenable. Well, her Bach may be better.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 05:17:11 AM
Quote from: premont on May 09, 2010, 04:43:16 AM
[....] Probably Harmonia Mundi France is just the distributor of the Calliope CDs abroad.
Yes. But also giving the discs a unique HM labelnumber. I think that no. was used by the Bavarian State Opera.

Quote from: premont on May 09, 2010, 04:53:41 AM
I have considered an investigation of Helga Schauerte´s ongoing Bach integral, but have not dared to do so yet. The reason is, that I have tried her Buxtehude, which I  find terribly contrieved, almost unlistenable. Well, her Bach may be better.
I paid € 9,90 for the mp3-version (download). Apparently I wanted to throw some money away, and I couldn't resist the possibility to give a new name a place in my collection. :)

The further I got listening through this recording, the more difficult it was to keep my concentration. (Which, of course, could also be my own 'fault' ;).) But since this disc contains a lot of Neumeister chorales, maybe one has to check out a disc with more demanding pieces to give a more founded opinion.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2010, 07:03:40 AM
Quote from: Verena on May 09, 2010, 01:21:47 AM
Hello Antoine,

How do you rate that set? Thanks

Hi, Verena. If a general description of that set were necessary, I would describe it like highly personal and a bit uneven (the entire cycle comprises recordings from 1975 to 1991).

I have enjoyed it especially because of certain poetic quality that Isoir achieves at his best. IMO his best moments usually convey certain improvisatory feeling, have a quasi-lysergic mode, a daydreaming property (in general the big chorales are a good example). 

I generally prefer that music speaks for itself, free of idiosyncrasies, but I have frequently been moved for Isoir's poetic qualities and quite unclassifiable style... Other members –certainly more knowledgeable than me on stylistic matters- have a strongly unfavorable opinion about him, but I have never regretted the purchase of his complete cycle...  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 07:15:35 AM
QuoteHi, Verena. If a general description of that set were necessary, I would describe it like highly personal and a bit uneven (the entire cycle comprises recordings from 1975 to 1991).

I have enjoyed it especially because of certain poetic quality that Isoir achieves at his best. IMO his best moments usually convey certain improvisatory feeling, have a quasi-lysergic mode, a daydreaming property (in general the big chorales are a good example).

I generally prefer that music speaks for itself, free of idiosyncrasies, but I have frequently been moved for Isoir's poetic qualities and quite unclassifiable style... Other members –certainly more knowledgeable than me on stylistic matters- have a strongly unfavorable opinion about him, but I have never regretted the purchase of his complete cycle...  :)

Thanks a lot, Antoine! Sounds like it's a set that I'd enjoy very much. I guess I have to buy it sooner or later (preferably the former)  ::)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 09, 2010, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2010, 07:03:40 AM
I generally prefer that music speaks for itself, free of idiosyncrasies, but I have frequently been moved for Isoir's poetic qualities and quite unclassifiable style... Other members –certainly more knowledgeable than me on stylistic matters- have a strongly unfavorable opinion about him, but I have never regretted the purchase of his complete cycle...  :)

Your description of Isoir´s style is very good IMO. I would add,  that I do not consider his set to be basic listening, but preferably additional listening, when you know the basic sets (and of course the works as such) well.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 01:54:10 PM
QuoteYour description of Isoir´s style is very good IMO. I would add,  that I do not consider his set to be basic listening, but preferably additional listening, when you know the basic sets (and of course the works as such) well.

What are the basic sets you'd recommend? The Walcha sets? Preston? Chapuis? I read many people recommending Chapuis, but that set is OOP (of course).   :'(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:08:54 PM
Quote from: premont on May 09, 2010, 01:29:08 PM
Your description of Isoir´s style is very good IMO. I would add,  that I do not consider his set to be basic listening, but preferably additional listening, when you know the basic sets (and of course the works as such) well.
Being a genuine bore I just wanted to say that I feel the same way about mr. Isoir's Bach as gentlemen Ton K. & AvantMontagne. ;D

Quote from: Verena on May 09, 2010, 01:54:10 PM
What are the basic sets you'd recommend? The Walcha sets? Preston? Chapuis? I read many people recommending Chapuis, but that set is OOP (of course).   :'(
Dare I make another mention of this link?
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=a9bde7d5f3ec24dcab1eab3e9fa335cada2afa0b1a1c041e
It's a download possibility of another OOP integral, the first one of Wolfgang Rübsam (for Philips).
For the rest: based on the two or three discs I've listened to, I would not recommend Chapuis. Preston offers good Trio Sonatas and Third Clavier-Übung (AKA Orgelmesse), but I'm not that fond of his cat on a hot tin roof way of playing in many of the large choral-free works.

Walcha is good, solid, generally non-legato playing with great respect for detail and polyphony, but maybe a bit old-fashioned in registrating and dynamics.
The second set of Marie-Claire Alain (on non-historic organs) is still available, and that's a good choice .... though without the Neumeister chorales.
If you like historic instruments, then both Gerhard Weinberger and Bernard Foccroulle offer great integrals IMO. It's almost impossible to get entirely pleased in such a large oeuvre, but both maintain a high level throughout.

Oh, and if you want to have fun, combined with some useful advice (one never knows ;)): just download this entire thread and read it! :D
For instance: a quick download per page in Notepad. Members like Antoine Marchand, Premont, Bulldog, Que and many others have written here with great enthousiasm about these organ works and their performers. It's nice reading stuff and, FWIW, they all gave me great advices! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 09, 2010, 02:09:45 PM
Quote from: Verena on May 09, 2010, 01:54:10 PM
What are the basic sets you'd recommend? The Walcha sets? Preston? Chapuis? I read many people recommending Chapuis, but that set is OOP (of course).   :'(

Yes, maybe Walcha, who´s two integrals were the listening, which converted me to Bach. But this was in the days just before the HIP movement broke out. To day I would consider Alain´s second set and Foccroulle´s set the most obvious basic listening. If Kooiman´s second set and Rübsam´s first set were available p.t.. I would add these.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 09, 2010, 02:14:08 PM
Crossing posts, Marc - show how much we actually agree on this. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:16:42 PM
Quote from: premont on May 09, 2010, 02:09:45 PM
Yes, maybe Walcha, who´s two integrals were the listening, which converted me to Bach. But this was in the days just before the HIP movement broke out. To day I would consider Alain´s second set and Foccroulle´s set the most obvious basic listening. If Kooiman´s second set and Rübsam´s first set were available p.t.. I would add these.
And .... Alessio Corti, and .... Bram Beekman.
Rübsam has got that mp3-link I mentioned.

Still available and another possibility: Ton Koopman on Teldec. Reissued (like Foccroulle on Ricercar) in a nicely priced set. One has to be in a 'certain' mood to enjoy his playing, but let's be fair to the man: sure, sometimes he's too playful in a juvenile way ;), but he sure can play some very moving chorale stuff IMO! And there are some nice organs in his set, too!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:17:49 PM
Quote from: premont on May 09, 2010, 02:14:08 PM
Crossing posts, Marc - show how much we actually agree on this. :)
Mmm, maybe I ruined it with my added Koopman story? :-[
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 09, 2010, 02:31:52 PM
Quote from: premont on May 09, 2010, 02:09:45 PM
Yes, maybe Walcha, who´s two integrals were the listening, which converted me to Bach. But this was in the days just before the HIP movement broke out. To day I would consider Alain´s second set and Foccroulle´s set the most obvious basic listening. If Kooiman´s second set and Rübsam´s first set were available p.t.. I would add these.

For what it's worth: Yes on Walcha, but on his second integral (the first one is far from integral, in any case, and not nearly as interesting, I find).

Also: Yes on Alain II, which you can get for a good price from Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000RZOR2K?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B000RZOR2K) (Best deal I know of, even if you're in the US.)
Yes, too, on Koopman, but he's not at all available in the US yet.
If you are interested in Alain at all, this is BY FAR the least expensive way:
Amazon.fr, used, like new (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.fr%2Fgp%2Foffer-listing%2FB001EVPBPS%3Fie%3DUTF8%26ref_%3Ddp%5Folp%5Fused%26qid%3D1273444278%26sr%3D1-58%26condition%3Dused&tag=nectarandambrfr-21&linkCode=ur2&camp=1642&creative=19458)

Having listened to it for the first time in many years, my opinion of Stockmeir has actually gone UP considerably: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000009DIR?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000009DIR (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000009DIR?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000009DIR)

(for reference: the sets i've got on my shelves (and listened to, since that's apparently not one and the same at GMG) are:

Walcha I, II
Alain II
Koopman (Warner)
Weinberger
Stockmeier
Fagius
Rogg II
Vernet

+

about half of Bowers,
about half of Berlin Classics' "Silbermann" cycle

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 09, 2010, 02:41:12 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 08, 2010, 10:28:52 PM
http://www.mediafire.com/?zg40jrennx5

(Aria in F-Major [after Couperin] BWV 587, played by Gerhard Weinberger)

Of course this is just a small example. Volume 15 of Weinberger's integral offers a broad insight in the possibilities of this instrument:

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Works-Vol-15/dp/B0001WGEIE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273385900&sr=1-3

Oh, btw: about the 'clumsy' mechanical linkages. Maybe it would be a nice idea to visit an organ builder in your spare time. IMHO, there's nothing clumsy about the mechanics of (neo-) historic organs. :)

I have the Weinberger cycle, I don't recall if I've heard volume 15 yet.  My comments about the antique actions come from Marie-Clair Alain, who in the notes to one of her cycles (I don't recall if it was the 2nd or 3rd, I've had both at one time or another) commented that confronting the manual of the restored organs gave her a new respect for the performers of the era and by necessity changed the way she performed the works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:43:28 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 09, 2010, 02:31:52 PM
For what it's worth: Yes on Walcha, but on his second integral (the first one is far from integral, in any case, and not nearly as interesting, I find).

Also: Yes on Alain II, which you can get for a good price from Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000RZOR2K?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B000RZOR2K) (Best deal I know of, even if you're in the US.)

Having listened to it for the first time in many years, my opinion of Stockmeir has actually gone UP considerably: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000009DIR?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000009DIR (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000009DIR?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000009DIR)

(for reference: the sets i've got on my shelves (and listened to, since that's apparently not one and the same at GMG) are:

Walcha I, II
Alain II
Koopman (Warner)
Weinberger
Stockmeier
Fagius
Rogg II
Vernet

+

about half of Bowers,
about half of Berlin Classics' "Silbermann" cycle
Jens! You hit some spots there! I forgot to mention the satisfying results of Stockmeier, Fagius and Vernet. (These three are still available.)
Again, I pushed the 'send' buttom too hastily. :-[

But still, Verena can check out the entire thread .... I recall that about two months ago we were also discussing the 'best' integral. Rogg II is OOP .... and concerning Walcha I (mono), I personally don't agree that it's less interesting as his second (stereo). But sure, the mono sound might be unattractive to some (although it's quite good, considering the recording years 1947-1952).

About completeness: sure, Walcha I is far from complete, but that goes for Walcha II, too. And for many others. And guys like Bowyer and Weinberger are almost over-complete.

Ah, before I forget: another non-complete integral ;) I can recommend is the one by American organist George Ritchie (Raven). Only 11 discs, but very worthwhile listening!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 02:52:37 PM
Thanks so much, Marc, jlaurson, premont for your great advice!!! The idea of saving the whole thread with notepad is also great, Marc. I guess the Alain II set will be the first I'll buy - it's really affordable since I don't have to pay shipping costs; but some of the others will certainly have to follow as soon as the money is available ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:53:44 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 09, 2010, 02:41:12 PM
I have the Weinberger cycle, I don't recall if I've heard volume 15 yet.  My comments about the antique actions come from Marie-Clair Alain, who in the notes to one of her cycles (I don't recall if it was the 2nd or 3rd, I've had both at one time or another) commented that confronting the manual of the restored organs gave her a new respect for the performers of the era and by necessity changed the way she performed the works.
I see. I think it would be her 3rd then. In that one, Alain opted for historical organs only. And yes, it's a different way of playing, I'm pretty convinced of that. It's more hard labour. In many cases the pedals are shorter, too. So this makes toe-heel playing fairly impossible. Hence the HIP-hypothesis that this 'ancient' music should be played non-legato, simply because legato playing was technically very difficult or even impossible.

Ton Koopman for instance always likes to tell his tale about my short legs, which meant that he was forced to use only his toes. Without even attending or reading a HIP-approved lecture or book, he already did it 'right'. :)

And Virgil Fox was flabbergasting his American audiences with his Bach playing on modern organs, but in Europe he couldn't handle the oldies at all .... or so the story goes.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 09, 2010, 02:57:09 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:43:28 PM

Walcha I (mono), I personally don't agree that it's less interesting as his second (stereo). But sure, the mono sound might be unattractive to some (although it's quite good, considering the recording years 1947-1952).

If nothing else, we can agree on the sound; the reason I don't really find Walcha I all that recommendable is not the sound which, apart from a bit of traffic noise and the natural 'grain' you'd expect from recordings that old, is much better than I feared it might be.

Rogg II is OOP but still can be had via Amazon.fr (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B000027OAA?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambrfr-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1642&creative=19458&creativeASIN=B000027OAA) at reasonable prices. It's where I got my copy from, and it made me happy.  ;D

@Verena, I think Alain II is a very good place to start, indeed.

@Scarpia: That comment of Alain's was on her third cycle.

@Marc: Didn't Alain move specifically to all-toe playing for her integral no.3?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:58:12 PM
Quote from: Verena on May 09, 2010, 02:52:37 PM
Thanks so much, Marc, jlaurson, premont for your great advice!!! The idea of saving the whole thread with notepad is also great, Marc. I guess the Alain II set will be the first I'll buy - it's really affordable since I don't have to pay shipping costs; but some of the others will certainly have to follow as soon as the money is available ...
It's a rock-solid choice!
I would like to add the possibility of buying single organ discs, too. There are many skilled performers who never did an integral, but delivered some gems! Like Gustav Leonhardt .... and a lot of others. You'll stumble upon their names whilst digging through this thread, I'm sure. :)

@Jens: Vive La France!
(Though I just hid my wallett, before getting tempted.)

Another @Jens: dunno about Alain III and her own adaptations really, except that she picked the oldies for that one. But yes, to truthful HIP-sters the all-toe playing is essential!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 09, 2010, 03:01:39 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:58:12 PM
It's a rock-solid choice!
I would like to add the Possibility of buying single organ discs, too. There are many skilled performers who never did an integral, but delivered some gems! Like Gustav Leonhardt .... and a lot of others. You'll stumble upon their names whilst digging through this thread, I'm sure. :)

Speaking of single discs: I know not everyone is quite as high off that set as I am, but enough share my passion that it's worth considering:

Karl Richter's 3 CD set (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006ZFQMQ/nectarandambr-20) is staggering in several instances. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html)

Also: Organ Mass with Bowyers. Art of the Fugue with Isoir.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 03:52:59 PM
Richter's 3 CD set and a Leonhardt CD just found their way into my shopping basket..  ::)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 09, 2010, 04:04:58 PM
Quote from: Verena on May 09, 2010, 03:52:59 PM
Richter's 3 CD set and a Leonhardt CD just found their way into my shopping basket..  ::)

Can't hold a candle to Richter's previous organ recital

(http://www.classicrecords.co.uk/photos/SXL2219.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 04:07:33 PM
QuoteCan't hold a candle to Richter's previous organ recital

and that one's only available on LP, right?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 09, 2010, 04:10:18 PM
Quote from: Verena on May 09, 2010, 04:07:33 PM
and that one's only available on LP, right?

I have it on CD (from the "Classic Sound" series). 

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Recital-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0000042GR/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273450152&sr=8-5
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 04:39:28 PM
Quote
I have it on CD (from the "Classic Sound" series).

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Recital-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0000042GR/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273450152&sr=8-5

Perfect. Not even particularly expensive. Many Thanks!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2010, 04:56:10 PM
This double-CD is also an excellent option:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21E0GYGF6AL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Bach - Great Organ Works
Gustav Leonhardt

$14.95, new and $6.49 used on the AMP (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Great-Organ-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0000029Y5/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273452615&sr=8-17).

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 05:28:07 PM
QuoteThis double-CD is also an excellent option:


Bach - Great Organ Works
Gustav Leonhardt

$14.95, new and $6.49 used on the AMP.

:)

Thanks Antoine!! I'll snap it up. If it weren't for the market place sellers, I'd be poorer than a church mouse.   ::)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 09, 2010, 06:10:10 PM
Quote from: Verena on May 09, 2010, 04:39:28 PM
Perfect. Not even particularly expensive. Many Thanks!

Beware, very non-HIP, performed on the organ in Victoria Hall (the home the l'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 06:38:56 PM
QuoteBeware, very non-HIP, performed on the organ in Victoria Hall (the home the l'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande).

I'm no longer the HIP-PIE that I formerly was, so I may still give it a try .. Thanks for making me aware of this.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 10, 2010, 02:36:51 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2010, 04:56:10 PM
This double-CD is also an excellent option:
Bach - Great Organ Works
Gustav Leonhardt
Agreement here. It's a gem.

FWIW: I placed a link before, with a download possibility of the Rübsam-Philips integral.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=a9bde7d5f3ec24dcab1eab3e9fa335cada2afa0b1a1c041e

Dunno if there's a reliable track-list included. Thanx to a good friend I can offer a link with scans of the booklet. So, for anyone who's interested in downloading mr. Rübsam's very good OOP first integral, here are the scans (in a zip-file):
http://www.mediafire.com/?wmhjj03wken

And I couldn't resist to upload some more OOP stuff:

Piet Wiersma playing the Lohman organ (1817) of the Reformed Church of Eenrum, NL. His last recordings, only a few hours before his sudden death.
Fantasia & Fugue in C-minor BWV 562/574
http://www.mediafire.com/?mmma2yyzdnm (http://www.mediafire.com/?mmma2yyzdnm)

To compare: Alessio Corti playing the neo-classical Tamburini organ della Chiesa Christiana Protestante in Milano.
Fantasia & Fugue in C-minor BWV 562/574
http://www.mediafire.com/?n12jnnzhzlu (http://www.mediafire.com/?n12jnnzhzlu)

About the coupling of BWV 562 and 574: I simply like them together. In Corti's OOP integral, BWV 562 and 574 are separate, yet successive tracks. So he might agree with me. And Walter Kraft, who did the same, too. 8)

Two chorale arrangements:
Bram Beekman playing the famous Van Hagerbeer/Schnitger organ of the St. Laurenskerk in Alkmaar, NL.
Wir glauben all' an einen Gott BWV 740
http://www.mediafire.com/?lnwmytedtey (http://www.mediafire.com/?lnwmytedtey)

Alessio Corti playing the Tamburini organ della Chiesa di Santa Maria Segreta in Milano.
Erbarm' dich mein, o Herre Gott BWV 721
http://www.mediafire.com/?02iwtwz2mkd (http://www.mediafire.com/?02iwtwz2mkd)

Both these chorales are considered spurious by some scholars. But I love them anyway. (And why not? :))
BWV 740 could be composed or arranged by Johann Ludwig Krebs, one of Bach's most talented pupils.
And from the first time I heard BWV 721 (in a church service at Good Friday 2009, in the intermission between the two parts of Bach's SJ Passion), it reminded me of the Erbarme dich, mein Gott aria from the Matthäus-Passion. To me, there's a striking resemblance in the idea of teardrops falling in the bass.

Again: if the links aren't working or creating any problems, please let me know.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on May 10, 2010, 08:11:51 PM
Re Rogg: there are these three budget double CDs from EMI
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ll8ckctyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PZgViaDKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51fv9bic1yL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

At least some of these are recent (2007/2009) remasterings.

Re: Alain

I have a single CD from Erato in which Alain plays the Schubler Chorales, and various Fugues and allied works (BWV numbers 565,564,582,578,566).  There's no recording data other than a release date of 1981 from Erato's Collection Bonsai.  Anyone know where this fits into Alain's cycles?  The CD, which is one of the first CDs I ever bought (meaning about the mid-80s) doesn't seem to correspond to anything offered by Amazon or Arkiv.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 11, 2010, 02:56:55 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on May 10, 2010, 08:11:51 PM
[....]
Re: Alain

I have a single CD from Erato in which Alain plays the Schubler Chorales, and various Fugues and allied works (BWV numbers 565,564,582,578,566).  There's no recording data other than a release date of 1981 from Erato's Collection Bonsai.  Anyone know where this fits into Alain's cycles?  The CD, which is one of the first CDs I ever bought (meaning about the mid-80s) doesn't seem to correspond to anything offered by Amazon or Arkiv.
Probably this one:

(http://i40.tinypic.com/6dvi29.jpg)

http://www.amazon.de/Orgelwerke-Marie-Claire-Alain/dp/B000024EM6

And maybe this was the Bonsai cover:

(http://i39.tinypic.com/537fcj.jpg)

Alain did 3 integrals (the first never reissued on cd).
In between, she did a few other 'single' recordings, too.
Nevertheless I think that this one is a sampler from her 2nd integral, considering the Erato Bonsai year of 1981.

Alain did f.i. some other 565, 578 and 582 recordings in August 1982 at the Schwenkedel organ de la Collégiale de Saint-Donat. That one was released in 1983, and reissued in 1985 with a different cover.
Because of the recording date, these performances can't be the same as 'yours'. But the timings are more or less the same as in her 2nd integral, which makes things a bit complicated. Apparently she was rather consistent in her interpretation during those years, which might even indicate that your disc contains other performances than the ones of her 2nd integral.

Are there any organs mentioned at your disc?
Because if so, then this information might help:
For the 2nd integral, Alain used these organs:
BWV 565, 564, 566: Marcussen organ, Sankt Nikolai Kirke, Kolding, Danmark.
BWV 578: Metzler organ, Mariastein Basilica, Switzerland.
BWV 582 & 645-650: Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France.

Well, I hope that somewhere in this post an answer to your question is given. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 11, 2010, 06:32:51 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 11, 2010, 02:56:55 AM
Alain did f.i. some other 565, 578 and 582 recordings in August 1982 at the Schwenkedel organ de la Collégiale de Saint-Donat. That one was released in 1983, and reissued in 1985 with a different cover.

This is your source I suppose:

http://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.eng.rch&org=%22Marie-Claire+ALAIN%22&tit=&oeu=&ins=&cdo=1&dvo=1&vno=1&edi=&nrow=90&cmd=Previous

BTW I have not made an A/B test, but I never found any reasonable reason to doubt, that the Bonsai CD contains exclusively recordings from the second integral, which I already knew relatively well (LP´s), when I acquired the Bonsai CD. But you may be right, that the consistency in her interpretations may make the question of other sources actual. Have you got any information about the cover for the Saint-Donat recording from 1982?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 11, 2010, 07:35:10 AM
Quote from: premont on May 11, 2010, 06:32:51 AM
This is your source I suppose:

http://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.eng.rch&org=%22Marie-Claire+ALAIN%22&tit=&oeu=&ins=&cdo=1&dvo=1&vno=1&edi=&nrow=90&cmd=Previous

BTW I have not made an A/B test, but I never found any reasonable reason to doubt, that the Bonsai CD contains exclusively recordings from the second integral, which I already knew relatively well (LP´s), when I acquired the Bonsai CD. But you may be right, that the consistency in her interpretations may make the question of other sources actual. Have you got any information about the cover for the Saint-Donat recording from 1982?
Well, at first I was pretty much convinced 'bout that 2nd integral story, but the image of the backcover of Kishnevi's disc at Amazon.de (link posted before) gives the idea, although it's hardly legible, that only two organs were 'used' for the 'Bonsai' cd: the Marcussen and Schwenkedel. Which doesn't correspond with the little research I did earlier today .... but maybe Erato did some sloppy source mentioning. This happens sometimes with sampler discs.

Here are the pics:
The first pic is of the vinyl issue of 1983, which btw was the first organ recording I bought myself. It was also issued on CD and MC.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/fkzlvc.jpg)

The second pic: cd reissue of 1985.

(http://i42.tinypic.com/1z71y11.jpg)

About the sources: in almost every searching matter, I use Google first :) or, in specific Bach cases, I immediately check Bachcantatas.com. Thanks to both I could acquire recording data and pics of these discs .... :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 11, 2010, 10:53:34 AM
Plz plz plz, let me upload one more .... :-[.
A special one for moderator Que: Ewald Kooiman is playing the Concerto in A-minor, BachWorshipsVivaldi 593, at the Hinsz-organ of the Bovenkerk in Kampen, NL.
http://www.mediafire.com/?25t5jggyymm
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 11, 2010, 02:07:22 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 11, 2010, 07:35:10 AM
Here are the pics:
The first pic is of the vinyl issue of 1983, which btw was the first organ recording I bought myself. It was also issued on CD and MC.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/fkzlvc.jpg)


So she recorded the Passacaglia twice on the same organ (Saint-Donat) during a period of 2 - 3 years?? Strange, since the first of these recordings (the 2. integral recording) hardly could be bettered.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on May 11, 2010, 08:29:11 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 11, 2010, 07:35:10 AM
Well, at first I was pretty much convinced 'bout that 2nd integral story, but the image of the backcover of Kishnevi's disc at Amazon.de (link posted before) gives the idea, although it's hardly legible, that only two organs were 'used' for the 'Bonsai' cd: the Marcussen and Schwenkedel. Which doesn't correspond with the little research I did earlier today .... but maybe Erato did some sloppy source mentioning. This happens sometimes with sampler discs.

Here are the pics:
The first pic is of the vinyl issue of 1983, which btw was the first organ recording I bought myself. It was also issued on CD and MC.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/fkzlvc.jpg)

The second pic: cd reissue of 1985.

(http://i42.tinypic.com/1z71y11.jpg)

About the sources: in almost every searching matter, I use Google first :) or, in specific Bach cases, I immediately check Bachcantatas.com. Thanks to both I could acquire recording data and pics of these discs .... :)

I'll go on the hypothesis that my CD originated in the second cycle. 
I should mention that the timings on my CD differ on each track from the timings shown at the Amazon.de link by anywhere from four to sixteen seconds , with my CD always being the shorter one.

There's no hint on the Bonsai CD of what organs were used or when, or anything useful other than the copyright date.  (And the cover differs slightly from the one shown in Marc's post: it is a white background with a photo of the Bonsai tree on the bottom half.

Come to think of it, Erato gave more information about the tree on the CD cover then they did about the recording data.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on May 11, 2010, 10:34:57 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 11, 2010, 10:53:34 AM
Plz plz plz, let me upload one more .... :-[.
A special one for moderator Que: Ewald Kooiman is playing the Concerto in A-minor, BachWorshipsVivaldi 593, at the Hinsz-organ of the Bovenkerk in Kampen, NL.
http://www.mediafire.com/?25t5jggyymm

Much appreciated, Marc! :) :-*
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 11, 2010, 11:35:14 PM
Anyone interested in Demessieux? I found this link; I rather like her playing, but then, I'm no specialist:
http://themusicparlour.blogspot.com/2010/02/blog-post.html
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 11, 2010, 11:49:16 PM
QuoteRe Rogg: there are these three budget double CDs from EMI




At least some of these are recent (2007/2009) remasterings.

These do look tempting.  ::)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 12, 2010, 02:11:05 AM
Quote from: Verena on May 11, 2010, 11:35:14 PM
Anyone interested in Demessieux? I found this link; I rather like her playing, but then, I'm no specialist:
http://themusicparlour.blogspot.com/2010/02/blog-post.html
Any link of this kind is interesting in my book. :)
Thanks for posting, and let's get back to the fifties!
Where's my Brylcreem?

Quote from: kishnevi on May 10, 2010, 08:11:51 PM
Re Rogg: there are these three budget double CDs from EMI [....]
At least some of these are recent (2007/2009) remasterings.
Quote from: Verena on May 11, 2010, 11:49:16 PM
These do look tempting. ::)
Did you win a lottery recently or what? :P
Anyway: Rogg's Die Kunst der Fuge is a must-have IMO. He also offers a completed 'final Fugue'. The other discs are fine examples of solid Bach organ playing, all chorale-free works btw. There are some experienced Rogg-listeners somewhere on this board, like Bulldog Don and (of course) a certain mr. Premont. From what I've read in reviews and in forums, I think most of the Rogg-connaisseurs value his earlier Harmonia Mundi recordings more than the EMI ones. Alas: the HM integral is officially OOP and the EMI integral has never been issued on CD. The first is available on some sites though (like Amazon.fr) and maybe the latter will be rereleased by EMI the upcoming years. At least they made a start.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 12, 2010, 03:19:28 AM
QuoteThese do look tempting. ::)


Did you win a lottery recently or what? :P

No, because, if I had won, I would not feell tempted any longer, I'd simply buy them ..  ;D
On the other hand, I do plan to win the lottery in the foreseeable future (of course)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on May 12, 2010, 07:12:41 PM
While at the Vox website, I noticed this one being announced as a " new" release
(http://voxcd.com/VOX/MC191.jpg)
http://voxcd.com/VOX/MC191.htm
Price is given as $50 inside the USA, $70 outside. 

Worth getting or no?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: sTisTi on May 13, 2010, 10:11:21 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 10, 2010, 02:36:51 PM

FWIW: I placed a link before, with a download possibility of the Rübsam-Philips integral.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=a9bde7d5f3ec24dcab1eab3e9fa335cada2afa0b1a1c041e

Again: if the links aren't working or creating any problems, please let me know.

Thank you for the links, I downloaded the files. Although the downloading worked fine, however, the following tracks came up with a checksum error when I unpacked them:
7-04 Allein Gott in der Höh' sei Ehr', BWV 771
9-01 Gott der Vater wohn' uns bei, BWV 748
15-21 Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080_ Contrapunctus V
16-15 Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080_ Contrapunctus XIV

Can anyone confirm this problem? The affected files stop playing about halfway through, except the last one, which works despite the checksum error (at least in WinAmp...) .
Some of the other files seem to be irregular as well, a program I regularly use for checking MP3 files ("EncSpot") refuses to even read some of the tracks, e.g. tracks 9-10 to 9-22, although they play OK in Winamp :-\

Any ideas?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on May 13, 2010, 10:30:19 AM
Quote from: sTisTi on May 13, 2010, 10:11:21 AM
Thank you for the links, I downloaded the files. Although the downloading worked fine, however, the following tracks came up with a checksum error when I unpacked them:
7-04 Allein Gott in der Höh' sei Ehr', BWV 771
9-01 Gott der Vater wohn' uns bei, BWV 748
15-21 Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080_ Contrapunctus V
16-15 Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080_ Contrapunctus XIV

Can anyone confirm this problem? The affected files stop playing about halfway through, except the last one, which works despite the checksum error (at least in WinAmp...) .
Some of the other files seem to be irregular as well, a program I regularly use for checking MP3 files ("EncSpot") refuses to even read some of the tracks, e.g. tracks 9-10 to 9-22, although they play OK in Winamp :-\

Any ideas?

Sometimes when you download the file again, it will come through properly.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 13, 2010, 12:16:15 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 13, 2010, 10:30:19 AM
Sometimes when you download the file again, it will come through properly.
And if this doesn't help, maybe it's a thought to ask your question here? Forums like those can be very helpful! :)

http://forums.winamp.com/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: sTisTi on May 13, 2010, 12:58:21 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 13, 2010, 12:16:15 PM
And if this doesn't help, maybe it's a thought to ask your question here? Forums like those can be very helpful! :)

http://forums.winamp.com/
It's not a WinAmp problem, the files I mentioned give a CRC error when they are extracted from the rar archive. I re-downloaded the dubious parts and the new download has the same damaged files as the first one, so the problem very likely lies in the original files. Or did anyone get a working version of the following files?:
7-04 Allein Gott in der Höh' sei Ehr', BWV 771
9-01 Gott der Vater wohn' uns bei, BWV 748
15-21 Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080_ Contrapunctus V
16-15 Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080_ Contrapunctus XIV

They are in parts 05, 09 and 10 of the rar archive. Please check for error messages when extracting these files and whether they can be played through to the end. Thank you!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 13, 2010, 01:54:09 PM
For those who have problems with these four BWV's, here's an extra upload.

BWV 771:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jdymtmyhojw
BWV 748:
http://www.mediafire.com/?m5klzd1mmwd
BWV 1080 - V:
http://www.mediafire.com/?huwdiemwnaa
BWV 1080 - XIV:
http://www.mediafire.com/?c4anyt2ywx2

If problems occur, please let me know.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 14, 2010, 03:43:43 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on May 12, 2010, 07:12:41 PM
While at the Vox website, I noticed this one being announced as a " new" release
(http://voxcd.com/VOX/MC191.jpg)
http://voxcd.com/VOX/MC191.htm
Price is given as $50 inside the USA, $70 outside. 

Worth getting or no?
Yes.

Why?

Because I listen to Kraft from time to time, and enjoy him. ;)
His readings are less analytic, more 'bold' and 'free' than Walcha's. He's playing on a nice selection of historical organs. The recordings sometimes sound a bit harsh. But in general, I certainly wouldn't advice against it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 14, 2010, 08:38:44 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 12, 2010, 02:11:05 AM
Anyway: Rogg's Die Kunst der Fuge is a must-have IMO. He also offers a completed 'final Fugue'. The other discs are fine examples of solid Bach organ playing, all chorale-free works btw. There are some experienced Rogg-listeners somewhere on this board, like Bulldog Don and (of course) a certain mr. Premont. From what I've read in reviews and in forums, I think most of the Rogg-connaisseurs value his earlier Harmonia Mundi recordings more than the EMI ones.

Fully agreed. The Harmonia Mundi recording on the J.A. Silbermann organ of the Cathedral of Arlesheim is a fine and consistent if far from complete set. The dark character of the organ and the strict but rather introvert and reflective interpretation makes it almost mandatory listening.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 14, 2010, 08:50:29 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on May 12, 2010, 07:12:41 PM
While at the Vox website, I noticed this one being announced as a " new" release
(http://voxcd.com/VOX/MC191.jpg)
http://voxcd.com/VOX/MC191.htm
Price is given as $50 inside the USA, $70 outside. 

Worth getting or no?

A bit oldfashioned but nevertheless very impressive and certainly recommendable. Tempi on the slow side, a bit more legato than we expect nowadays, but telling agogics and in chorale free works generally scholary registrations even measured with the standard of to day. Registrations of chorales generally colourful, but not romantic, rather affective (and effective).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 14, 2010, 08:54:41 AM
Quote from: premont on May 14, 2010, 08:50:29 AM
A bit oldfashioned but nevertheless very impressive and certainly recommendable. Tempi on the slow side, a bit more legato than we expect nowadays, but telling agogics and in chorale free works generally scholary registrations even measured with the standard of to day. Registrations of chorales generally colourful, but not romantic, rather affective (and effective).

Do you know his Buxtehude, Premont?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: sTisTi on May 14, 2010, 08:59:42 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 13, 2010, 01:54:09 PM
For those who have problems with these four BWV's, here's an extra upload.

BWV 771:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jdymtmyhojw
BWV 748:
http://www.mediafire.com/?m5klzd1mmwd
BWV 1080 - V:
http://www.mediafire.com/?huwdiemwnaa
BWV 1080 - XIV:
http://www.mediafire.com/?c4anyt2ywx2

If problems occur, please let me know.
Thank you, these files work just fine :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 14, 2010, 09:19:02 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 14, 2010, 08:54:41 AM
Do you know his Buxtehude, Premont?
Let me help you, brother Ton. ;D

From the thread:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3769.0.html

Quote from: premont on October 11, 2007, 12:43:59 PM
Walter Kraft´s interpretations are grandiose with an almost gothic air and also a tad romantic, but with great authority and expression and often reaching ecstatic effects. He plays the reconstructed Totentanz-organ (Karl Kemper) in Marienkirche, Lübeck. His registrations are full and sometimes a bit heavy. Recordings were made 1957 in early stereo, good for the time but sometimes with some distortion, and always with much reverberation (due to the great church). I don´t think his set is well suited for the first acquaintance with the works, and would rather recommend Vogel (see above) or Foccroulle.

I have attended several of the late Walter Kraft´s organ recitals (playing among others Buxtehude), and he was even better in the real life than on recordings, his playing always exuding marvellous concentration. He perished in a hotel fire in Amsterdam in 1977.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: listener on May 14, 2010, 11:13:46 AM
re Kraft - Bach organ works
If the reissue is of the Vox Box set, the organs include: St. Nicolai Kirche, Mölln,  St. Ludgeri Kirche, Norden,   St. Pankrantius Kirche, Neuenfelde,   Leufsta Bruks Kyrka,   Krist Kirke, Tønder,  Bielfeld Organ, Stade,  the 2 Riepp organs at Ottobeuren  (organ mass),  Weingarten, Bremervörde,  Amorbach, and Stade.
Late 1950's recordings, were regarded as good in their time.  As they were about the only complete set there was not much competition.    The Vox pressings were okay, the recording quality not too bad, and I'll be getting to a re-hear of these eventually.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 14, 2010, 11:23:33 AM
Quote from: listener on May 14, 2010, 11:13:46 AM
re Kraft - Bach organ works
If the reissue is of the Vox Box set, the organs include: St. Nicolai Kirche, Mölln,  St. Ludgeri Kirche, Norden,   St. Pankrantius Kirche, Neuenfelde,   Leufsta Bruks Kyrka,   Krist Kirke, Tønder,  Bielfeld Organ, Stade,  the 2 Riepp organs at Ottobeuren  (organ mass),  Weingarten, Bremervörde,  Amorbach, and Stade.
Late 1950's recordings, were regarded as good in their time.  As they were about the only complete set there was not much competition.    The Vox pressings were okay, the recording quality not too bad, and I'll be getting to a re-hear of these eventually.
Must be the same set, did not check all the organs, but your list looks familiar. Nevertheless the recordings for Vox were made between 1961 and 1967. Reissued in 2006, as part of the series 'Musical Concepts' in a plain small set in a hard paper box.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 14, 2010, 06:51:55 PM
Here is one excellent version of Bach Trio Sonatas ...

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 14, 2010, 06:58:20 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 12, 2010, 02:11:05 AM
Any link of this kind is interesting in my book. :)
Thanks for posting, and let's get back to the fifties!
Where's my Brylcreem?
Did you win a lottery recently or what? :P
Anyway: Rogg's Die Kunst der Fuge is a must-have IMO. He also offers a completed 'final Fugue'. The other discs are fine examples of solid Bach organ playing, all chorale-free works btw. There are some experienced Rogg-listeners somewhere on this board, like Bulldog Don and (of course) a certain mr. Premont. From what I've read in reviews and in forums, I think most of the Rogg-connaisseurs value his earlier Harmonia Mundi recordings more than the EMI ones. Alas: the HM integral is officially OOP and the EMI integral has never been issued on CD. The first is available on some sites though (like Amazon.fr) and maybe the latter will be rereleased by EMI the upcoming years. At least they made a start.

I am still waiting for the Bach Complete Organ Works by Rogg remastered from this EMI Electrola set, which I have owned for some 25 years ...


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 15, 2010, 04:18:41 AM
QuoteI am still waiting for the Bach Complete Organ Works by Rogg remastered from this EMI Electrola set, which I have owned for some 25 years ...

I'm afraid we will have to wait for another 25 years. In the meantime, however, we can surely feast on an abundance of sensational new recordings by the likes of Bang Bang, André Rieu, and Daniel Helfgott (etc.). Isn't that comforting? (?)
>:(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 15, 2010, 05:02:44 AM
Quote from: Verena on May 15, 2010, 04:18:41 AM
I'm afraid we will have to wait for another 25 years. In the meantime, however, we can surely feast on an abundance of sensational new recordings by the likes of Bang Bang, André Rieu, and Daniel Helfgott (etc.). Isn't that comforting? (?)
>:(

There is no room for any recordings by Bang Bang in my collection when I already have many by the likes of Schnabel, Cortot, Arrau, Richter, Gilels, Gould and Horowitz, etc.  Why have the imitation when I already have the real deals?    Right George?

But then, I also have the option to digitize this 18-LP Bach Complete Organ Works by Rogg ...

;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2010, 05:35:59 AM
Quote from: Verena on May 15, 2010, 04:18:41 AM
I'm afraid we will have to wait for another 25 years.

Probably not. EMI are releasing it now, slowly. They have also released the first volume of Rogg´s Buxtehude set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2010, 05:37:19 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 15, 2010, 05:02:44 AM
But then, I also have the option to digitize this 18-LP Bach Complete Organ Works by Rogg ...

This is what I did more than ten years ago.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2010, 05:40:24 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 14, 2010, 08:54:41 AM
Do you know his Buxtehude, Premont?

Yes, and thanks to Marc for anticipating my answer.

Do you know his Lübeck, Antoine? :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 15, 2010, 06:16:02 AM
Quote from: premont on May 15, 2010, 05:40:24 AM
Do you know his Lübeck, Antoine? :)

No, I don't know his Lübeck. I know Vogel's Lübeck; although it's a different Lübeck.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 15, 2010, 06:24:34 AM
QuoteThis double-CD is also an excellent option:


Bach - Great Organ Works
Gustav Leonhardt

BTW, Enjoying this right now. Thanks to those who recommended this! (I think it was Antoine and Mark)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 15, 2010, 06:31:50 AM
QuoteProbably not. EMI are releasing it now, slowly. They have also released the first volume of Rogg´s Buxtehude set.

I'm a little confused.  :-\ Are the Emi two-fers mentioned by Kishnevi and also commented on by Marc part of an earlier or of a later set than the now OOP Harmonia Mundi integrale? I have inferred from Marc's comments that they were later recordings, but from your comments I infer that the Emi two-fers are later recordings. (Or are we talking about other Emi recordings than the three two-fers?)
::)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2010, 06:34:34 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 15, 2010, 06:16:02 AM
No, I don't know his Lübeck. I know Vogel's Lübeck; although it's a different Lübeck.  :)

Walter Kraft recorded in the late 1950es the organ works of Vincent Lübeck for Vox. Unfortunately it was released (recorded?) only in mono and never - to my knowledge - made its way to CD. An interpretation in the same vein as his Buxtehude set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2010, 06:47:06 AM
Quote from: Verena on May 15, 2010, 06:31:50 AM
I'm a little confused.  :-\ Are the Emi two-fers mentioned by Krishnevi and also commented on by Marc part of an earlier or of a later set than the now OOP Harmonia Mundi integrale? I have inferred from Marc's comments that they were later recordings, but from your comments I infer that the Emi two-fers are later recordings. (Or are we talking about other Emi recordings than the three two-fers?)
::)

Lionel Rogg has made three more or less (most less) complete Bach sets.

1) early 1960es released by Oryx, played upon the Metzler organ of the Grossmünster, Zürich.

2) ca. 1969 released by Harmonia Mundi France, played upon the J A Silbermann organ, Dom zu Arlesheim.

3) late 1970es released by EMI (originally released as quadrophony sound) and more complete than the two others, but still not including the Neumeister chorales, played upon different Marcussen and Metzler organs among which the Metzler organ in the Cathedral of Sct. Pierre, Geneve, and the Marcussen organs in Sorø and Vor Frelsers Kirke, Copenhagen.

EMIs "new" releases are part of the third set, and I hope they eventually are going to release the complete set. Only two double CDs have been released so far, because the recently released recording of The Art of Fugue and the  Vivaldi concerto transcriptions do not belong to the third integral. In the third integral AoF is not included, and the Concerto transcriptions are played upon the Sorø organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 15, 2010, 06:58:01 AM
Quote from: premont on May 15, 2010, 06:34:34 AM
Walter Kraft recorded in the late 1950es the organ works of Vincent Lübeck for Vox. Unfortunately it was released (recorded?) only in mono and never - to my knowledge - made its way to CD. An interpretation in the same vein as his Buxtehude set.

... oh, that Lübeck: a man not a city or an organ in that city. I didn't even know his existence until now. Another name to explore. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 15, 2010, 07:09:59 AM
QuoteLionel Rogg has made three more or less (most less) complete Bach sets.

1) early 1960es released by Oryx, played upon the Metzler organ of the Grossmünster, Zürich.

2) ca. 1969 released by Harmonia Mundi France, played upon the J A Silbermann organ, Dom zu Arlesheim.

3) late 1970es released by EMI (originally released as quadrophony sound) and more complete than the two others, but still not including the Neumeister chorales, played upon different Marcussen and Metzler organs among which the Metzler organ in the Cathedral of Sct. Pierre, Geneve, and the Marcussen organs in Sorø and Vor Frelsers Kirke, Copenhagen.

EMIs "new" releases are part of the third set, and I hope they eventually are going to release the complete set. Only two double CDs have been released so far, because the recently released recording of The Art of Fugue and the  Vivaldi concerto transcriptions do not belong to the third integral. In the third integral AoF is not included, and the Concerto transcriptions are played upon the Sorø organ.

Thanks a lot, Premont!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 15, 2010, 10:26:56 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 15, 2010, 06:58:01 AM
... oh, that Lübeck: a man not a city or an organ in that city. I didn't even know his existence until now. Another name to explore. :)
Yep!
Vincent Lübeck (ca. 1654-1740).
Unfortunately, only a small amount of Lübeck's works has survived. His best known composition is a large organ Fantasia on Ich ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ.
He was a.o. organist at the Nikolaikirche in Hamburg, where they had a large Schnitger organ. Here's a quote from Johann Mattheson: This extraordinary organ ... also has an extraordinary organist. But how to praise someone who is already greatly renowned? I only need to give his name, Vincent Lübeck, to complete the whole eulogy.
One of his sons, Vincent jr., also became a well-known musician and composer.
(And the third more or less well-known Vincent Lübeck was this son's grandfather. Are you still with me? ;))
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2010, 10:49:45 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 15, 2010, 10:26:56 PM
One of his sons, Vincent jr., also became a well-known musician and composer.
(And the third more or less well-known Vincent Lübeck was this son's grandfather. Are you still with me? ;))

Yes, Buxtehude lived in Lübeck, and Lübeck lived in Hamburg. Buxtehude is not far from Hamburg. Right?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 15, 2010, 11:15:56 PM
Quote from: premont on May 15, 2010, 10:49:45 PM
Yes, Buxtehude lived in Lübeck, and Lübeck lived in Hamburg. Buxtehude is not far from Hamburg. Right?
Stimmt.

Buxtehude was Danish, though. :P
His first name actually was Diderik.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2010, 11:39:09 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 15, 2010, 11:15:56 PM
Stimmt.

Buxtehude was Danish, though. :P
His first name actually was Diderik.

Waar!

Een goede oude Deense voornaam.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 16, 2010, 02:32:00 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 15, 2010, 11:15:56 PM
Stimmt.

Buxtehude was Danish, though. :P
His first name actually was Diderik.

It's almost one of those: "Was Mozart Austrian?" issues:


(from wiki)
QuoteHe is thought to have been born with the name Diderich Buxtehude.[3] Scholars dispute both the year and country of his birth, although most now accept it taking place in 1637 in Helsingborg, Skåne, at the time part of Denmark (but now part of Sweden).[4] His obituary stated that "he recognized Denmark as his native country, whence he came to our region; he lived about 70 years".[5] Others, however, claim that he was born at Oldesloe in the Duchy of Holstein, which at that time was a part of the Danish Monarchy (but is now in Germany). Later in his life he Germanized his name and began signing documents Dieterich Buxtehude.[3]
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 16, 2010, 01:53:07 PM
Quote from: premont on May 15, 2010, 11:39:09 PM
Waar!

Een goede oude Deense voornaam.
Du gøre fremskridt.
Hvad angående Bach's produktion på orgel?

(I fear this is rotten Danish ;D.)

About Bux: his music is universal, if that's a relief to you all.
And wherever he laid his hat was his home. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 18, 2010, 02:45:14 PM
Stanislas Deriemaeker (Belgium) plays Bach on the Metzler organ of the Antwerp Cathedral.

Prelude & Fugue in E-minor BWV 533
http://www.mediafire.com/?kbmiwwjahzy

Chorale arrangement Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland BWV 659
http://www.mediafire.com/?wuyg2dyljmw

Fugue in C-minor BWV 575
http://www.mediafire.com/?04eyy03zwnn

Enjoy!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 23, 2010, 04:24:37 PM
Dear, dear.
It's terrible late around here.

I'm WIIIIIIDE AWAKE!!
I'm not sleeping.


Apparently the Ghost is over me.

Longing for that, too?

Then enjoy these three chorale arrangements for Pentecost, played by Wolfgang Rübsam on the Metzler organ of the St. Nikolauskirke, Frauenfeld, Switzerland. Part of his first (OOP) integral, for Philips.

BWV 651:
http://www.mediafire.com/?nth4224ywzt

BWV 652:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ttgrttzkjyh

BWV 667:
http://www.mediafire.com/?uqtzjqntqzq
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 23, 2010, 05:06:49 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 23, 2010, 04:24:37 PM
Dear, dear.
It's terrible late around here.

I'm WIIIIIIDE AWAKE!!
I'm not sleeping.


Apparently the Ghost is over me.

Longing for that, too?

Early music should be a sure cure for insomnia.    ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 24, 2010, 02:09:35 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 23, 2010, 04:24:37 PM
Dear, dear.
It's terrible late around here.

I'm WIIIIIIDE AWAKE!!
I'm not sleeping.


Apparently the Ghost is over me.
[....]
Quote from: Coopmv on May 23, 2010, 05:06:49 PM
Early music should be a sure cure for insomnia. ;)
Yeah, like the Goldbergs. Or the Neumeister chorales. Or f.i. consort music, like the ones mentioned in James's recent thread.

(Btw: I don't think it's insomnia. I just stayed up a bit late yesterday .... because of music :))
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 24, 2010, 02:30:13 PM
The Danish organist Bine Katrine Bryndorf may be known to organ lovers because of her Buxtehude integral and her contribution to the Haenssler Bach set. It is probably less known, that she made a rather playful recording of the Bach Triosonatas for Danish Classico, which as Marc suggests, probably is OOP now. BTW here is the fourth Sonata e-minor BWV 528:

First movement
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zdmybgmnyfm/10 - Ukendt titel - Ukendt kunstner.mp3

Second movement
http://www.mediafire.com/file/jmfzqttmz0u/11 - Ukendt titel - Ukendt kunstner.mp3

Third movement
http://www.mediafire.com/file/dqk0t2myuky/12 - Ukendt titel - Ukendt kunstner.mp3
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 24, 2010, 02:39:24 PM
Quote from: premont on May 24, 2010, 02:30:13 PM
The Danish organist Bine Katrine Bryndorf may be known to organ lovers because of her Buxtehude integral and her contribution to the Haenssler Bach set. It is probably less known, that she made a rather playful recording of the Bach Triosonatas for Danish Classico, which as Marc suggests, probably is OOP now. BTW here is the fourth Sonata e-minor BWV 528:

First movement
http://www.mediafire.com/file/tynmwmdcomh/28 - Ukendt titel - Ukendt kunstner.mp3

Second movement
http://www.mediafire.com/file/25xy4w4mwrm/29 - Ukendt titel - Ukendt kunstner.mp3

Third movement
http://www.mediafire.com/file/dqk0t2myuky/12 - Ukendt titel - Ukendt kunstner.mp3
Premont, THANKS!
Coincidentally one of the BWV 528 tracks on my Bine disc was a bit damaged .... you must have some supernatural qualities! ;D

Btw: I really like Bryndorf as a Bach/Trio organist. Approached as chamber music & played with joy.

EDIT: Premont, I think you've uploaded a Dorian Toccata & Fugue, and only one movement of BWV 528 .... could this be true?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 24, 2010, 03:39:00 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 24, 2010, 02:39:24 PM
[....]
Premont, I think you've uploaded a Dorian Toccata & Fugue, and only one movement of BWV 528 .... could this be true?
I really tried to get in touch with Premont again, I sent him a mail, I even alarmed Prins Jørgens Gård 11 in København, but our Premont appeared to have left the country. ::)

So I uploaded the other movements of Bach's fourth Trio Sonata, played by Bine Katrine Bryndorf, myself.

BWV 528-1:
http://www.mediafire.com/?1mzjhjyiinm

BWV 528-2:
http://www.mediafire.com/?uuzgzz1xwfz
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 24, 2010, 03:41:59 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 24, 2010, 02:39:24 PM
Coincidentally one of the BWV 528 tracks on my Bine disc was a bit damaged .... you must have some supernatural qualities! ;D
Concerning me this is only natural. ;) ;D
Quote from: Marc on May 24, 2010, 02:39:24 PM
EDIT: Premont, I think you've uploaded a Dorian Toccata & Fugue, and only one movement of BWV 528 .... could this be true?
I do not know how this could happen, :o  because I have uploaded the right files. But now the mistake should be corrected.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 24, 2010, 03:44:37 PM
Precisely crossing posts (02.39.24 PM), Marc, but I was here in this forum, correcting my mistake without delay.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 24, 2010, 03:48:16 PM
Quote from: premont on May 24, 2010, 03:41:59 PM
Concerning me this is only natural. ;) ;DI do not know how this could happen, :o  because I have uploaded the right files. But now the mistake should be corrected.  :)
Terribly sorry.
A rare case of crossposting. (PM sent.)

I didn't check the 'who's online list'. If I had done that, I would have realized that you were reuploading.

Let's look at it in a positive way: now the members have different choices and they can start a poll who offers the best mp3's?. :)

Add this: before posting, I saw that you saw what I saw and at least we share the opinion about the fact that this was crossposting and also about the nice performance of Bryndorf's BWV 528! :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 24, 2010, 03:59:13 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 24, 2010, 03:48:16 PM
Terribly sorry.
A rare case of crossposting. (PM sent.)

I didn't check the 'who's online list'. If I had done that, I would have realized that you were reuploading.
Calm down dear Marc, I am still standing.

Quote from: Marc on May 24, 2010, 03:48:16 PM
Let's look at it in a positive way: now the members have different choices and they can start a poll who offers the best mp3's?. :)
:D Mine are 320 KBPS.

Quote from: Marc on May 24, 2010, 03:48:16 PM
Add this: before posting, I saw that you saw what I saw and at least we share the opinion about the fact that this was crossposting and also about the nice performance of Bryndorf's BWV 528! :D
That´s for sure. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on May 25, 2010, 07:52:35 AM
Quote from: premont on May 24, 2010, 02:30:13 PM
The Danish organist Bine Katrine Bryndorf may be known to organ lovers because of her Buxtehude integral and her contribution to the Haenssler Bach set. It is probably less known, that she made a rather playful recording of the Bach Triosonatas for Danish Classico, which as Marc suggests, probably is OOP now. BTW here is the fourth Sonata e-minor BWV 528:

First movement
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zdmybgmnyfm/10 - Ukendt titel - Ukendt kunstner.mp3

Second movement
http://www.mediafire.com/file/jmfzqttmz0u/11 - Ukendt titel - Ukendt kunstner.mp3

Third movement
http://www.mediafire.com/file/dqk0t2myuky/12 - Ukendt titel - Ukendt kunstner.mp3

The organ sounds much less shrill than what I have heard of Alain II (samples only, sadly) -- I like it! Thanks. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 25, 2010, 09:51:27 AM
Yes, Bryndorf is good, isn't she?
Her Trio Sonatas disc is a gem, IMHO.
And her Leipzig Chorales (Hännsler edition) are good, too. If I'm longing for more gravity, then I'd pick other options, but she offers a playful reading of these great pieces, too.

Here's a comparative review of that one, by our very own Bulldog Don. The other recordings are by Peter Sykes (not bad, either; in general I agree with Don's conclusions) and Cristina Garcia Banegas (which I do not know myself).

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Organ-Leipzig-Part1.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Organ-Leipzig-Part2.htm

To add some pseudo-academic numerological blabbering :D:
Bryndorf only plays 17 chorales. The other two play all of "The Eighteen" and rightly so. Because 18 = 3 x 6. And Bach was a renowned numerologist. ;)
3 is a Holy number, and 6 stands for Absolute Perfection. So one should play all 18 ..... BUT: 3 x 6 = also 666, which stands for .... THE BEAST. >:D

And Bach certainly was no BEAST worshipper.
So, my guess is that the priests of the Trondheim cathedral forbade Bryndorf to play Bach's eighteenth chorale on their Wagner organ, because they did not like the insinuation of and assocation with 666. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on May 25, 2010, 10:17:10 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 25, 2010, 09:51:27 AM
BUT: 3 x 6 = also 666, which stands for .... THE BEAST. >:D

Congrats! You just made the OVPP proponents (as per your claim regarding their scholarly practices) look like amateurs. :D ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 25, 2010, 10:23:21 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 25, 2010, 10:17:10 AM
Congrats! You just made the OVPP proponents (as per your claim regarding their scholarly practices) look like amateurs. :D ;)
Well, at high school I once made a lecture about the fact that Paul McCartney was really dead since november 9th, 1966.

Maybe I should write a book about the Bach case, and proof that JSB in fact was a Beast worshipper. A book with nothing but facts .... errr, meaning: only facts which state my case.

After this earthquake, the entire musical world will know the real truth and only play Bach with hollow satanic laughing between movements and with a develish grin on the musician's face. :P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 10:24:22 AM
Bryndorf Trio Sonatas disc?   Where can I get it?!?!?!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 25, 2010, 10:27:59 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 10:24:22 AM
Bryndorf Trio Sonatas disc?   Where can I get it?!?!?!
I once found it on a Danish website, but they never delivered and they didn't answer my mail.
BWV 528 has been uploaded by Premont and me yesterday.
I think the disc itself is officially OOP .... if you're interested: PM me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on May 25, 2010, 10:37:50 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 25, 2010, 10:23:21 AM
Well, at high school I once made a lecture about the fact that Paul McCartney was really dead since november 9th, 1966.

Maybe I should write a book about the Bach case, and proof that JSB in fact was a Beast worshipper. A book with nothing but facts .... errr, meaning: only facts which state my case.

After this earthquake, the entire musical world will know the real truth and only play Bach with hollow satanic laughing between movements and with a develish grin on the musician's face. :P

Have you met Rob Newman? The two of you would hit it off so well.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 25, 2010, 10:50:57 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 25, 2010, 10:37:50 AM
Have you met Rob Newman? The two of you would hit it off so well.
;D

We did meet in the Mozart = a fraud thread and we truly did hit this board off! :P

IMHO, Rob's suffering from many negative resentments and apparently he believes in lots of conspiracies. I don't. And I'm quite sure that the OVPP boys and girls do not, either. Being loaded with spite and prejudices is a false start for any objective or intersubjective investigation.

Plz don't get me wrong Navneeth: I have respect for scholars and investigators, and I'm interested in f.i. Bach and Mozart, which means that I sometimes read theoretical articles and assumptions about them with interest. But many new discoveries, true, doubtful or false, are presented with a wrong and aggressive attitude. In cases like that, the writer will never reach the audience he/she wants to convince.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 25, 2010, 05:17:10 PM
I never get tired of this one:

http://www.youtube.com/v/F6-UXRic7Pg

Willem van Twillert playing Jesus bleibet meine Freude on the Hinsz organ (1781) of the Martinikerk in Bolsward, NL.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 26, 2010, 04:47:10 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 25, 2010, 05:17:10 PM
I never get tired of this one:

http://www.youtube.com/v/F6-UXRic7Pg

Willem van Twillert playing Jesus bleibet meine Freude on the Hinsz organ (1781) of the Martinikerk in Bolsward, NL.

It's difficult to believe that someone able to play this on an organ like that doesn't somehow live a better life than any of us who can't.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 26, 2010, 05:13:07 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 26, 2010, 04:47:10 AM
It's difficult to believe that someone able to play this on an organ like that doesn't somehow live a better life than any of us who can't.
Is this your Vox-humana speaking?
No human being is without mistakes .... 0:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 26, 2010, 05:33:30 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 26, 2010, 05:13:07 AM

No human being is without mistakes .... 0:)

No, but Bach elevates through humility from which we seem to learn.*


*Except of course the evil masterminds bent on world-domination after playing the (non-Bach) Toccata on their basement pipe-organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2010, 05:47:46 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 26, 2010, 05:33:30 AM

*Except of course the evil masterminds bent on world-domination after playing the (non-Bach) Toccata on their basement pipe-organ.


;D :D ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 26, 2010, 01:10:51 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 25, 2010, 05:17:10 PM
I never get tired of this one:

http://www.youtube.com/v/F6-UXRic7Pg

Willem van Twillert playing Jesus bleibet meine Freude on the Hinsz organ (1781) of the Martinikerk in Bolsward, NL.

Thanks, Marc. Very beautiful. An arrangement yes, but completely in Bach´s own spirit.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 26, 2010, 01:57:04 PM
To day I opted for listening to some of Lionel Rogg´s first Bach cycle, the Oryx from 1962. It was recorded in a relative short period of time on the NEObaroque (much more neo than baroque) Metzler monster organ of Grossmünster, Zürich. CH. It vas engineered by the Swiss radio in mono sound, and the sound could have been better even for 1962. It was first released in the mid 1960es on LP. In the early 1970es it was rereleased on LP by Oryx in electronic stereo, the most odd stereo one can imagine, as the frequencies were divided in two groups, the high frequencies being located in the left channel and the low frequencies in the right channel.  A horrible way of manipulating with the organ sound. Completely unlistenable.  So I acquired an equalizer and respread the frequencies in equal measure between the two channels and recorded the sound to CDR with a CD-recorder. This is the shape in which I have preserved the cycle. I have never seen it released on commercial CDs.

Lionel Rogg was obviously partly inspired by Helmut Walcha in his choice of tempi, registrations and phrasing. His registrations are a bit more scholary than Walcha´s, but like Walcha he favoured 8´+ 2´ combinations and structure-based changes of registrations, f.i. the playing of pedal-free sections in preludes and fugues on another section of the organ. However he is also a bit more oldfashioned than Walcha, because he often in fugues - and more often than Walcha - changed registration several times in the run of the fugue, aiming at a post-romantic crescendo effekt, -  that is beginning the fugue on a few stops and ending almost in organo pleno. His articulation is more legato than Walcha´s and his touch makes a somewhat "softer" impression, but contrary to Walcha he is sometimes inconsequent as to articulalation f.i. in different presentations of a fugue subject.

I have uploaded af few examples from this integral,

Canzona BWV 588

http://www.mediafire.com/file/dy2wjnmmzyr/588.mp3


Fugue g-minor BWV 578 (the fugue the subject of which is´n but a mere variation of the main subjet of The Art of Fugue)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/g0nu3tgnjmm/578.mp3


Fugue d-minor  BWV 539 (arrangement of the fugue from the first Sonata for solo violin)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/za2ozn5zyzw/539b.mp3


And for comparison the fugue d-minor BWV 539 played by Rogg on a Feldberg pedal harpsichord in the late 1960es.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jjfhztjwyyn/539b pc.mp3

Hope you will enjoy.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 26, 2010, 02:25:58 PM
Quote from: premont on May 26, 2010, 01:57:04 PM
To day I opted for listening to some of Lionel Rogg´s first Bach cycle, the Oryx from 1962.
[....]
I have uploaded af few examples from this integral,
[....]
Great! This is becoming the one and only Bach's OOP organ works thread! Thanks, Premont!

Quote from: jlaurson on May 26, 2010, 05:33:30 AM
[....] Bach elevates through humility from which we seem to learn.*

*Except of course the evil masterminds bent on world-domination after playing the (non-Bach) Toccata on their basement pipe-organ.
Beware of French chief inspectors of Ze Sûreté ....

http://www.youtube.com/v/LEcsgbwBFRs

http://www.youtube.com/v/6j_2KMyUxso
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 28, 2010, 06:06:18 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 08, 2010, 09:49:41 PM
L

Maybe the writers of the pdf-brochure forgot to add this source for BWV 957, played on a Harmonia Mundi issue:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Chorale-Preludes-Manuscript/dp/B000027O54/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273383477&sr=1-1

Nice instinct my friend!!! I got the copies of the soundrack from the ballet in the mail today...
Had I only listened to you right away, instead of first comparing Weinberger I, Weinberger II, Kay Johannsen, Koopman, Herrick, Bowyers, Marshall, Tillmanns, Fagius... it **is** Payne. (Perhaps not TOO surprising; it's the only one around long enough to have been part of that collection.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 28, 2010, 02:17:56 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 08, 2010, 09:49:41 PM
[....]
Maybe the writers of the pdf-brochure forgot to add this source for BWV 957, played on a Harmonia Mundi issue:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Chorale-Preludes-Manuscript/dp/B000027O54/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273383477&sr=1-1
Quote from: jlaurson on May 28, 2010, 06:06:18 AM
Nice instinct my friend!!! I got the copies of the soundrack from the ballet in the mail today...
Had I only listened to you right away, instead of first comparing Weinberger I, Weinberger II, Kay Johannsen, Koopman, Herrick, Bowyers, Marshall, Tillmanns, Fagius... it **is** Payne. (Perhaps not TOO surprising; it's the only one around long enough to have been part of that collection.)
Dear Jens, don't feel too bad about it! I can imagine you had a nice time listening to some skilled Bach organists! :D
Besides that: it's a good journalistic habit, after one's attention has been drawn to a possible fact or source, to check it out for one's selves. After a rather short investigation, it was just some kind of a wild guess by me, really. Nice to hear though that this hasty guess was right! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 28, 2010, 04:52:21 PM
Walcha in 1950/52 (Orgelbüchlein): "Helmut Walcha's groundbreaking mono Bach organ recordings completely revitalised" (?)
What do you think about this? http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Keyboard/PAKM036.php
The price is really steep for an LP transfer, I think, though the sound is quite good.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 28, 2010, 05:02:26 PM
Quote from: Verena on May 28, 2010, 04:52:21 PM
Walcha in 1950/52 (Orgelbüchlein): "Helmut Walcha's groundbreaking mono Bach organ recordings completely revitalised" (?)
What do you think about this? http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Keyboard/PAKM036.php
The price is really steep for an LP transfer, I think, though the sound is quite good.
Check out this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Orgel-Werke-Helmut-Walcha-Bach/dp/B000E6UL6I
Walcha's 1947-1952 mono Bach recordings, at bargain price!
(Good remastering, too.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 28, 2010, 11:27:22 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 28, 2010, 05:02:26 PM
Check out this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Orgel-Werke-Helmut-Walcha-Bach/dp/B000E6UL6I
Walcha's 1947-1952 mono Bach recordings, at bargain price!
(Good remastering, too.)

My understanding is that these are not at all remastered but 1:1 copies from the DG set.
In any case, I find Walcha's stereo cycle far more intriguing. "Groundbreaking" it may have been... but what else?
There are so many other sets--in retrospect--that I'd get before this one.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 29, 2010, 04:54:18 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 28, 2010, 11:27:22 PM
My understanding is that these are not at all remastered but 1:1 copies from the DG set.
In any case, I find Walcha's stereo cycle far more intriguing. "Groundbreaking" it may have been... but what else?
There are so many other sets--in retrospect--that I'd get before this one.
Of course the Amazon link doesn't oblige Verena to anything.
I only posted it to show that it's also possible to purchase the mono Orgel-Büchlein by Walcha in a different way. Low price, plus all the extras!

Sure, if one has the stereo set by Walcha, then one is able to claim that one's got the 'ultimate' view of this great organist. And indeed, there are many other sets (and single discs, let's not forget that) which are very interesting, too.

I have to admit that I dunno exactly all facts about the 'remastering' thing. All I know, is that the Documents boxset has got very good sound, considering the recording data. But maybe the single Orgel-Büchlein disc is even better ....
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 29, 2010, 06:09:30 AM
QuoteOf course the Amazon link doesn't oblige Verena to anything.
I only posted it to show that it's also possible to purchase the mono Orgel-Büchlein by Walcha in a different way. Low price, plus all the extras!

Sure, if one has the stereo set by Walcha, then one is able to claim that one's got the 'ultimate' view of this great organist. And indeed, there are many other sets (and single discs, let's not forget that) which are very interesting, too.

I have to admit that I dunno exactly all facts about the 'remastering' thing. All I know, is that the Documents boxset has got very good sound, considering the recording data. But maybe the single Orgel-Büchlein disc is even better ....

Thanks! At that price I think I'll try the early Walcha.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 29, 2010, 03:30:47 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2010, 04:54:18 AM

Sure, if one has the stereo set by Walcha, then one is able to claim that one's got the 'ultimate' view of this great organist. And indeed, there are many other sets (and single discs, let's not forget that) which are very interesting, too.


It's not about "claiming" and not about "ultimate", nor is that the psychologically obvious thing to do; much rather one would hail the more rare early cycle as the 'real' connoisseur's cycle and the re-make merely a pale copy thereof. (As you'll have people claim with the Backhaus or Arrau LvB Sonata cycles or Karajan (no.2 vs. no.4) and so forth.

In my case it's simply having listened to both and having been very, very much surprised how much better I liked the playing and the organs of the second Walcha cycle. Walcha II is in my top-3, probably. Walcha I--though still very interesting, good-sounding, and fine--probably my least favorite.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 30, 2010, 03:48:22 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 29, 2010, 03:30:47 PM
It's not about "claiming" and not about "ultimate", nor is that the psychologically obvious thing to do; much rather one would hail the more rare early cycle as the 'real' connoisseur's cycle and the re-make merely a pale copy thereof. (As you'll have people claim with the Backhaus or Arrau LvB Sonata cycles or Karajan (no.2 vs. no.4) and so forth.

In my case it's simply having listened to both and having been very, very much surprised how much better I liked the playing and the organs of the second Walcha cycle. Walcha II is in my top-3, probably. Walcha I--though still very interesting, good-sounding, and fine--probably my least favorite.
Jens, points taken.
I was reacting at your post, but tried to stay a bit 'objective' in my advice to Verena, and therefore I chose more general statements. Of course I realize that you yourself liked the 2nd cycle better because of your personal listening experiences. Apologies if that got kinda overlooked in my contributions.

About preferences between Walcha 1 & 2: personally, I find that a more complex thing and in this my preferences differ from yours. If instruments are concerned: for Bach, the Strasbourg instrument of the 2nd set (J.A. Silbermann, Saint-Pierre-le-Jeune) is a bit too 'friendly', soft and poetic to my ears. This impression is strengthened because of the rather spatial recording, which btw isn't very helpful for Walcha's polyphonic approach IMO.

To me, the Van Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkmaar is a great instrument .... especially if bold playing is acquired, like many of the non-liturgic works. Sadly for Walcha, the organ sounded even (much?) better after the 2nd large restoration in the eighties .... I have some recordings of this instrument after the 2nd 'surgery', f.i. by Piet Kee and Leo van Doeselaar, that are quite stunning!

It's been a while since I listened to Walcha, but I do recall that I was very pleased with the Clavier-Übung III in the mono version. In general, I remember a more bold approach by Walcha in his first set, and maybe this is why I slightly (just slightly) prefer this one to the 2nd, apart of course from all the plusses that are delivered by the stereo readings.

Short side-step: funny thing is, whilst Walcha is worldwide celebrated mainly as a (Bach) organist, I think his polyphonic style works even better on the harpsichord.
I own this 'insight' thanks to this set, which I think is very worthwhile, even though nowadays we've grown used to more beautiful sounding instruments:

(http://i44.tinypic.com/amqzuq.jpg)

Well, for the moment, that's more or less all about my cup of Walcha's tea. But different people have different taste. Of course, you should keep on drinking yours! :)
(And plz keep on posting your interesting flavour tests, here or at your site.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2010, 01:38:57 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 28, 2010, 06:06:18 AM
....comparing Weinberger I, Weinberger II, ...

You obviously know something, that I do not know.
Which recording is Weinberger I and which recording is Weinberger II ??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 30, 2010, 01:50:27 PM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2010, 01:38:57 PM
You obviously know something, that I do not know.
Which recording is Weinberger I and which recording is Weinberger II ??
Here's another hasty guess: Weinberger Box I, Weinberger Box II (since the integral of Membran Documents comes in two boxes).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 30, 2010, 01:55:18 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 30, 2010, 01:50:27 PM
Here's another hasty guess: Weinberger Box I, Weinberger Box II (since the integral of Membran Documents comes in two boxes).

Marc,  I believe I have the Weinberger Box II, which has 22 CD's (more than any other Bach boxes I am aware of) with the disclaimer that not all works have definitively been confirmed to have been composed by JS Bach ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ch6MV8HFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2010, 01:56:41 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 30, 2010, 01:50:27 PM
Here's another hasty guess: Weinberger Box I, Weinberger Box II (since the integral of Membran Documents comes in two boxes).

You must think of Stockmeier.

Actually I think Jens meant Walcha I and Walcha II, but unfortunately typed faster, than he was thinking.  :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 30, 2010, 02:02:51 PM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2010, 01:38:57 PM
You obviously know something, that I do not know.
Which recording is Weinberger I and which recording is Weinberger II ??

Weinberger I is the Yale manuscript of BWV 957, "Mach's mit mir, Gott, nach Deiner Guet" (disc 12). What I (sloppily) call "Weinberger II" is another chorale prelude on "Mach's mit mir, Gott, nach Deiner Guet" -- without a BWV number (deest.) but with stylistic elements suggesting authorship by JSB. (disc 19)

EDIT: BWV numbers are jumpy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 30, 2010, 02:04:13 PM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2010, 01:56:41 PM
You must think of Stockmeier.

Actually I think Jens meant Walcha I and Walcha II, but unfortunately typed faster, than he was thinking.  :D

Couldn't have meant that, since BWV957 wasn't discovered until long after Walcha was dead. :-)
(Nor has Stockmeier recorded it.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 30, 2010, 02:05:32 PM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2010, 01:56:41 PM
You must think of Stockmeier.
Yep.
Bedtime, I guess.

Quote from: Coopmv on May 30, 2010, 01:55:18 PM
Marc,  I believe I have the Weinberger Box II, which has 22 CD's (more than any other Bach boxes I am aware of) with the disclaimer that not all works have definitively been confirmed to have been composed by JS Bach ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ch6MV8HFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Yeah, I have that one, too. But Premont is right: this is the only (grand) integral by Weinberger.

Quote from: premont on May 30, 2010, 01:56:41 PM
Actually I think Jens meant Walcha I and Walcha II, but unfortunately typed faster, than he was thinking.  :D
I think you win. ;)
EDIT: we both lost. :P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:15:13 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 30, 2010, 02:02:51 PM
Weinberger I is the Yale manuscript of BWV 597, "Mach's mit mir, Gott, nach Deiner Guet" (disc 12). What I (sloppily) call "Weinberger II" is another chorale prelude on "Mach's mit mir, Gott, nach Deiner Guet" -- without a BWV number (deest.) but with stylistic elements suggesting authorship by JSB. (disc 19)

This must be an improvised emergency solution. BWV 597 is one of the Concerto transcriptions AFAIR the anonymous in Es-major.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:16:13 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 30, 2010, 02:04:13 PM
Couldn't have meant that, since BWV957 wasn't discovered until long after Walcha was dead. :-)
(Nor has Stockmeier recorded it.)

Of course, but if you confused the names, considerations like this would not count.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 30, 2010, 02:17:54 PM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:15:13 PM
This must be an improvised emergency solution. BWV 597 is one of the Concerto transcriptions AFAIR the anonymous in Es-major.
Actually I think Jens meant BWV 957, but unfortunately typed faster than he was thinking. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:20:31 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 30, 2010, 02:05:32 PM
I think you win. ;)
EDIT: we both lost. :P

No, I win, Jens is presenting us with a rambling story. 8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:22:43 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 30, 2010, 02:17:54 PM
Actually I think Jens meant BWV 957, but unfortunately typed faster than he was thinking. ;D ;D ;D

Yes, he seems to do that rather often. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 30, 2010, 02:26:57 PM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:20:31 PM
No, I win, Jens is presenting us with a rambling story. 8)

No, you're tied. Jens was talking about BWV 957 in the post quoted by you. Therefore, his "alibi" is plausible.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 30, 2010, 02:33:47 PM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:22:43 PM
Yes, he seems to do that rather often. ;D

[in my best Miss-Piggy voice:]
Excusez-Moi ?!



Apart from that: I've even mentioned the name of the chorale... I had been talking about 957 throughout... I actually thought your 'misunderstanding' was part of an elaborate joke.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:35:06 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 30, 2010, 02:02:51 PM
Weinberger I is the Yale manuscript of BWV 957, "Mach's mit mir, Gott, nach Deiner Guet" (disc 12). What I (sloppily) call "Weinberger II" is another chorale prelude on "Mach's mit mir, Gott, nach Deiner Guet" -- without a BWV number (deest.) but with stylistic elements suggesting authorship by JSB. (disc 19)

EDIT: BWV numbers are jumpy.

E.g. Weinberger has recorded more than eleven different Chorale preludes by Bach on Allein Gott. According to your terminology they should be called Weinberger I, Weinberger II, Weinberger III, Weinberger IV, Weinberger V, and so on??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 30, 2010, 02:35:50 PM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:20:31 PM
No, I win, Jens is presenting us with a rambling story. 8)
I don't think so. (I agree with Antoine here.)
But he's wrong about the discovery date of BWV 957. It was already mentioned in the 1st published edition of the Schmieder BWV catalogue (1950), as Fugue (for keyboard) in G-Major.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:38:53 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 30, 2010, 02:33:47 PM
I actually thought your 'misunderstanding' was part of an elaborate joke.

Mark you, I am always deadly serious.  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 30, 2010, 02:40:49 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 30, 2010, 02:35:50 PM
I don't think so. (I agree with Antoine here.)
But he's wrong about the discovery date of BWV 957. It was already mentioned in the 1st published edition of the Schmieder BWV catalogue (1950), as Fugue (for keyboard) in G-Major.

That's true, of course... I was thinking of the Neumeister Chorales.
And also confused (not really, but it played into it) that it was among the ("Neumeister") Yale Manuscripts which moved it from apocryphal status to the established core?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 30, 2010, 02:41:19 PM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:35:06 PM
E.g. Weinberger has recorded more than eleven different Chorale preludes by Bach on Allein Gott. According to your terminology they should be called Weinberger I, Weinberger II, Weinberger III, Weinberger IV, Weinberger V, and so on??
Well, at the site of Bachcantatas.com this is done, though not numbered by performer, but indeed by chorale.
F.i.: Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier BWV 633 = I, 634 = II, 706 = III, et cetera.
And even on this site every posting gets a number .... this will be my (lucky) number CMXXXVIII.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:42:43 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 30, 2010, 02:35:50 PM
I don't think so. (I agree with Antoine here.)
But he's wrong about the discovery date of BWV 957. It was already mentioned in the 1st published edition of the Schmieder BWV catalogue (1950), as Fugue (for keyboard) in G-Major.

It is published already in the first complete Bach edition from the 19th century (by F.C.Griepenkerl et alii) among the "piano"-works. The first recording I know of it was made by Martin Galling (on harpsichord) ca. 1966.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 30, 2010, 02:43:11 PM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:38:53 PM
Mark you, I am always deadly serious.  8) 8) 8)

You're so Bachian, my friend! (I'm not joking).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:47:03 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 30, 2010, 02:41:19 PM
Well, at the site of Bachcantatas.com this is done, though not numbered by performer, but indeed by chorale.
F.i.: Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier BWV 633 = I, 634 = II, 706 = III, et cetera.
And even on this site every posting gets a number .... this will be my (lucky) number CMXXXVIII.

Marc you: It is reasonable to number them by chorale, but nonsense to do it by performer.

And the Bachcantatas site is not the most authoritative source I know.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:48:00 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 30, 2010, 02:26:57 PM
No, you're tied. Jens was talking about BWV 957 in the post quoted by you. Therefore, his "alibi" is plausible.  :)

No I am tired, it is late here. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 30, 2010, 02:51:06 PM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:47:03 PM
Marc you: It is reasonable to number them y chorale, but non ence to do it by performer.

And the Bachcantatas site is not the most authoritative source I know.
Marc me?  ???

Me Marc, You Premont.
You always serious :P, Me not.
Me was joking about Numbers.
Me should have added zmiley.
Me apology.

Me also go to bed, Me tired.
Me listened a lot to post-punk Noise from 80s.
Me head hurts.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 30, 2010, 02:55:50 PM
Quote from: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:47:03 PM
Marc you: It is reasonable to number them by chorale, but nonsense to do it by performer.

Ughh.... I was searching for a particular interpretation of a chorale by that particular name by Bach--without being sure whether it was actually 957. There are two of Weinberger's that fit the bill, so for my 'internal' search I dubbed them Weiny1 & Weiny2. With that in mind, I wrote what i wrote. I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gldlyTjXk9A), geez-louise.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2010, 02:59:53 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 30, 2010, 02:51:06 PM
Me listened a lot to post-punk Noise from 80s.
Me head hurts.

Better to listen to some Bach.
You will get no pain in your bachhead for that reason (typo intended - contrary to the typos above).
:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2010, 03:03:39 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 30, 2010, 02:55:50 PM
Ughh.... I was searching for a particular interpretation of a chorale by that particular name by Bach--without being sure whether it was actually 957. There are two of Weinberger's that fit the bill, so for my 'internal' search I dubbed them Weiny1 & Weiny2. With that in mind, I wrote what i wrote. I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gldlyTjXk9A), geez-louise.  ;)

Sounds reasonable. I have lighted my pipe of peace, even if I never smoke. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Renfield on May 30, 2010, 05:15:45 PM
The counterpoint in this thread hit Bach-like proportions for a stretch.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 06, 2010, 11:30:24 AM
Talking about counterpoint .... :P

Thanks to some global connections I was able to find this link:

http://avaxhome.ws/music/classical/bach_kunst_der_fuge.html

It's is a live recording of Die Kunst der Fuge in May 2007 (broadcast?): Alessio Corti playing on the Tamburini organ of the Protestant Church in Milan, Italy.

http://rapidshare.com/files/226357060/ArteFuga.part1.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/226370171/ArteFuga.part2.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/226378753/ArteFuga.part3.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/331834167/Locandina.rar
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 14, 2010, 11:48:10 AM
A famous piece, played by Dutch organist Bram Beekman (De Rijckere organ [1781], Oostkerk, Middelburg, NL):

http://www.mediafire.com/?ynzymytmqqm

Another one that belongs to the 'greatest hits' (IMO): Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ BWV 639.

http://www.mediafire.com/?nhm3ndzjkgy

Soli Deo Gloria (BWV 676):

http://www.mediafire.com/?townvjknmzt

And here's Bram celebrating the Dutch victory today over the Danes. May it serve as a comfort to Premont ;): In dir ist Freude BWV 615.

http://www.mediafire.com/?3vj0jzyze5y

FWIW: I rate Beekman's Bach very high, especially in the chorales. No wonder: Beekman is Dutch for Bachmann.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 15, 2010, 01:18:05 PM
Quote from: Marc on June 14, 2010, 11:48:10 AM
And here's Bram celebrating the Dutch victory today over the Danes. May it serve as a comfort to Premont ;): In dir ist Freude BWV 615.

No use to deny, that the Dutch play some "things" better than the Danes e.g. organ and football.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 15, 2010, 07:49:27 PM
Quote from: premont on June 15, 2010, 01:18:05 PM
No use to deny, that the Dutch play some "things" better than the Danes e.g. organ and football.  :)
Well, the Danes still have Marcussen, Bryndorf .... and Euro 1992. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on June 20, 2010, 10:05:38 AM
Quote from: Marc on June 14, 2010, 11:48:10 AM
A famous piece, played by Dutch organist Bram Beekman (De Rijckere organ [1781], Oostkerk, Middelburg, NL):

http://www.mediafire.com/?ynzymytmqqm

Another one that belongs to the 'greatest hits' (IMO): Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ BWV 639.

http://www.mediafire.com/?nhm3ndzjkgy

Soli Deo Gloria (BWV 676):

http://www.mediafire.com/?townvjknmzt

And here's Bram celebrating the Dutch victory today over the Danes. May it serve as a comfort to Premont ;): In dir ist Freude BWV 615.

http://www.mediafire.com/?3vj0jzyze5y

FWIW: I rate Beekman's Bach very high, especially in the chorales. No wonder: Beekman is Dutch for Bachmann.

The Danes could use a lot many players like Michael Laudrup ... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tFPSTJE07E)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 26, 2010, 12:24:56 PM
Been listening to Volume 2 of Canadien Bernard Lagacé's Bach integral.

(http://i49.tinypic.com/25jzajt.jpg)

His playing is OK, no nonsense with a touch of legato, but I do not like the sound of the organ at all. It's a 1961 Von Beckerath (Immaculate Conception Church, Montréal, Canada) and apparantly it's a genuine pipe organ, but it sounds more like an electronic instrument to me. :(

Can't be a specific Beckerath-thing, I'd say. I though that the Beckerath in Montélimar, France, played by a.o. Vernet, sounded quite all right.
And, although this was only my first encounter with Lagacé, I also think that Vernet is a more interesting Bach organist than the Canadian.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 03, 2010, 02:44:15 PM
Another one for Que (and for other members, too, of course 0:)): real good Bach stuff 8) by Ewald Kooiman.
Taken from some OOP discs that were recorded before his second integral.

Agricola/Schnitger/Hinsz organ, Martinikerk, Groningen, NL:

Toccata in F-Major BWV 540-1
http://www.mediafire.com/?ztjedj4yyzz

Vom Himmel kam der Engel Schar BWV 607
http://www.mediafire.com/?33zm5h2hze2

Meine Seele erhebet den Herren BWV 648
http://www.mediafire.com/?wdzdjgyndgt

Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott BWV 720
http://www.mediafire.com/?afnmynzqhem

Heyneman organ, Sint Jan-kathedraal, Den Bosch, NL

Concerto in C-Major BWV 595
http://www.mediafire.com/?ymnmldym5ti

Herr Jesu Christ, dich zu uns wend' BWV 726
http://www.mediafire.com/?mjlddjytnrz

Wir Christenleut BWV 1090
http://www.mediafire.com/?miozwm4owtt

Herr Gott, nun schleuß den Himmel auf BWV 1092
http://www.mediafire.com/?bzmwzke3irj

Herzliebster Jesu, was hast du verbrochen BWV deest
http://www.mediafire.com/?vvegy3goz2b

Ich ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ BWV deest
http://www.mediafire.com/?dmxtyzddmzl

Stellwagen organ, Jacobikirche, Lübeck, D

Jesus, meine Zuversicht BWV 728
http://www.mediafire.com/?2dmnzjgujge

Schonat/Van Hagerbeer/Duyschot organ, Nieuwe Kerk, Amsterdam, NL

Prelude & Fugue in D-Major 532
http://www.mediafire.com/?zedtzyh4jwn

Prelude & Fugue in A-minor BWV 543
http://www.mediafire.com/?niymtwnnxym

I hope all files work well.
Enjoy!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 03, 2010, 03:19:55 PM
Thanks, Marc, very interesting for me too.
The links seem to work well. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 03, 2010, 03:25:36 PM
Quote from: premont on July 03, 2010, 03:19:55 PM
Thanks, Marc, very interesting for me too.
The links seem to work well. :)
I got the discs (Coronata) from the library.
The discs were called Virtuose Orgelmusik and Berühmten historischen Orgeln. Labelnos.: COR 1206 & 1207.

My first impressions were that the 'younger' Kooiman was less exuberant than the 'older' Kooiman during his integral in the Nineties.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 03, 2010, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: Marc on July 03, 2010, 03:25:36 PM
My first impressions were that the 'younger' Kooiman was less exuberant than the 'older' Kooiman during his integral in the Nineties.

I have to wait and hear until to morrow (or to be exact: later to day), - you know, bedtime impending. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 03, 2010, 03:38:42 PM
Yeah, bedtime. I almost forgot that.

Sweet dreams! ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on July 04, 2010, 12:16:27 AM
Thank you, Marc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on July 04, 2010, 01:28:09 AM
Quote from: Marc on July 03, 2010, 02:44:15 PM
Another one for Que (and for other members, too, of course 0:)): real good Bach stuff 8) by Ewald Kooiman.
Taken from some OOP discs that were recorded before his second integral.

Terrific Marc - many, many thanks! :)

I definitely wanted to hear more by Kooiman. Let's hope that 2nd cycle will resurface soon. Maybe the people at Brilliant would be interested? ::)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 04, 2010, 01:47:36 AM
Quote from: premont on July 03, 2010, 03:19:55 PM
Thanks, Marc, very interesting for me too.
Quote from: Opus106 on July 04, 2010, 12:16:27 AM
Thank you, Marc.
Quote from: Que on July 04, 2010, 01:28:09 AM
Terrific Marc - many, many thanks! :)
You're all very welcome. My pleasure.
Some of Kooiman's Coronata discs can still be found on the internet, but in decreasing numbers.

Quote from: Que on July 04, 2010, 01:28:09 AM
I definitely wanted to hear more by Kooiman. Let's hope that 2nd cycle will resurface soon. Maybe the people at Brilliant would be interested? ::)
Or maybe his heirs will re-issue Kooiman's 2nd integral on Aeolus, because of the unexpected end of the 3rd after Kooiman's sudden death in 2009.
Either way, it would be nice for those who weren't or aren't able to get the genuine Coronata cycle.
And I also think Kooiman, being one of the best interpreters of Bach's organ music, deserves an IN PRINT cycle!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 04, 2010, 02:05:03 AM
Seems as if Kooiman´s unfinished third cycle will become completed by some of his pupils and released at last.  :)

Links:
http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/More/News-and-articles/Future-of-the-big-Bach-organ-music-SACD-project-started-with-Ewald-Kooiman

http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/More/News-and-articles/New-SACD-recordings-for-the-Bach-Organ-Project
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 04, 2010, 02:32:21 AM
Quote from: premont on July 04, 2010, 02:05:03 AM
Seems as if Kooiman´s unfinished third cycle will become completed by some of his pupils and released at last.  :)

Links:
http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/More/News-and-articles/Future-of-the-big-Bach-organ-music-SACD-project-started-with-Ewald-Kooiman

http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/More/News-and-articles/New-SACD-recordings-for-the-Bach-Organ-Project
Brilliant news from Aeolus! :)
That would make a fine salute to and legacy for Ewald Kooiman!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 04, 2010, 10:28:24 AM
Quote from: Marc on July 03, 2010, 03:25:36 PM
My first impressions were that the 'younger' Kooiman was less exuberant than the 'older' Kooiman during his integral in the Nineties.

Yes, rather much less exuberant, in between almost pedantic in the Chorale-free works, whereas I find the Chorales beautifully expressive.

Do you know the precise dates of the recordings?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 04, 2010, 11:15:33 AM
Quote from: premont on July 04, 2010, 10:28:24 AM
Yes, rather much less exuberant, in between almost pedantic in the Chorale-free works, whereas I find the Chorales beautifully expressive.
Yes, in general I prefer Kooiman in his 2nd integral.

Quote from: premont
Do you know the precise dates of the recordings?
I'm an old-fashioned man, and I wrote down the track-list, by using pen & paper. I was very very accurate to write down the Coronata labelnos. .... but I did NOT write down the year of production and/or recording. >:(
But, if I'm not mistaken, I do recall that both discs were from the period 1984-1986. Let's say: a handful of years before he started his 2nd integral.

Btw: I found this Italian site, with some Kooiman discs still available (a.o. these two, plus some volumes of his 2nd integral):
http://www.discantica.it/5_output.php?genere=&repertorio=&casap=&cp=&strumento=&t=&casa=&compositore=&esecutore=ewald%20kooiman&titolo=&supporto=&page=0&limit=10
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 13, 2010, 10:50:42 AM
Tropical temperatures and atmosphere in the Netherlands .... wo soll ich fliehen hin?

Last Saturday I went to a nice and cool little church (Pelstergasthuiskerk, Groningen) to listen to the Schnitger/Hinsz/Freytag organ, played by Peter Westerbrink, for a German baroque programme (a.o. Böhm, Walther, Bach & Krebs).

(http://img260.imagevenue.com/loc347/th_20586_Organ_122_347lo.jpg) (http://img260.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=20586_Organ_122_347lo.jpg)

I had one spiritual hour with about 15 other organ fools. :D

Here are some audio clips of the organ, with Janny de Vries playing Bach:

Allein Gott in der Höh' sei Ehr BWV 662
http://www.mediafire.com/?5jumxjzomemwtwm

Allabreve in D-major BWV 589
http://www.mediafire.com/?5etdnyhjq2wdd2c

Maybe a bit too spicy for some of you, but I think this instrument still sounds like a full-flavoured North-German baroque organ .... as far as I'm allowed to conclude that. :-\
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 31, 2010, 08:09:29 PM
Is it just my idea or this looks like a great news?


(http://www.outhere-music.com/data/cds/2609/BIG.JPG)


After having recorded the complete organ works of Bach, Bernard Foccroulle rounds off his musical voyage with the Art of Fugue; Bach himself did not state on which instrument he intended the work to be performed. A true example of ars perfecta, the Art of Fugue is not simply a demonstration of contrapuntal theory intended for musicians adept in refined polyphonic technique; each piece is a small jewel, one whose harmonic language and expression are revealed to all who listen carefully.


Samples here (http://www.outhere-music.com/store-RIC_303)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on July 31, 2010, 08:22:53 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on July 31, 2010, 08:09:29 PM
Is it just my idea or this looks like a great news?


(http://www.outhere-music.com/data/cds/2609/BIG.JPG)


After having recorded the complete organ works of Bach, Bernard Foccroulle rounds off his musical voyage with the Art of Fugue; Bach himself did not state on which instrument he intended the work to be performed. A true example of ars perfecta, the Art of Fugue is not simply a demonstration of contrapuntal theory intended for musicians adept in refined polyphonic technique; each piece is a small jewel, one whose harmonic language and expression are revealed to all who listen carefully.


Samples here (http://www.outhere-music.com/store-RIC_303)

Based on the extended samples, it's excellent news.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 31, 2010, 11:54:57 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on July 31, 2010, 08:09:29 PM
Is it just my idea or this looks like a great news?

(http://www.outhere-music.com/data/cds/2609/BIG.JPG)

Having listened to this only once so far (received it only three days ago), It may be a bit too early to say that much, but this is a very austere and ascetic interpretation, more so than his earlier integral. He uses very simple registrations - almost only 8´and 4´stops and almost exclusively principals or flutes, and there is no use of the pedal except in Cpt. VII (for the augmented statements of the principal subject - like Corti). This is in principle to my taste as is his smooth and very little detached articulation, but the result is in practice rather vague. I would prefer more boldness and virility in his playing. And there is no tendency to create a kind of climax in the course of the work, even if he must have intended a listening at one sitting judged from the somewhat strange sequence in which he plays the Cpt.s. Fortunately there is no end Chorale, but he adds another version of the unfinished Fugue with his own very short conclusion played a  tad more bold  and strangely enough now with the use of the pedal. The organ is a modern Thomas organ modelled upon the baroque organ building in Thüringen (Trost), and the recorded sound is good.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 01, 2010, 07:05:01 AM
Quote from: premont on July 31, 2010, 11:54:57 PM
Having listened to this only once so far (received it only three days ago), It may be a bit too early to say that much, but this is a very austere and ascetic interpretation, more so than his earlier integral. He uses very simple registrations - almost only 8´and 4´stops and almost exclusively principals or flutes, and there is no use of the pedal except in Cpt. VII (for the augmented statements of the principal subject - like Corti). This is in principle to my taste as is his smooth and very little detached articulation, but the result is in practice rather vague. I would prefer more boldness and virility in his playing. And there is no tendency to create a kind of climax in the course of the work, even if he must have intended a listening at one sitting judged from the somewhat strange sequence in which he plays the Cpt.s. Fortunately there is no end Chorale, but he adds another version of the unfinished Fugue with his own very short conclusion played a  tad more bold  and strangely enough now with the use of the pedal. The organ is a modern Thomas organ modelled upon the baroque organ building in Thüringen (Trost), and the recorded sound is good.

That was fast, Premont! I suppose you bought the set on the label's website, taking advantage of their free shipping for all orders.

As always, your message results very useful and informative and, for sure, one of the first (or the first) written on the web about this set. Additionally, it confirms some impressions of mine after to listen to some samples provided on the label's website; especially, an extraordinarily suitable sense of austerity and a not extremely detached articulation (which seems clear from the Contrapunctus 1).   

Thanks for your comment.  :)





Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 01, 2010, 07:26:04 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 01, 2010, 07:05:01 AM
That was fast, Premont! I suppose you bought the set on the label's website, taking advantage of their free shipping for all orders.

No, I got it from Amazon.fr:

http://www.amazon.fr/Art-fugue-l-Jean-S%C3%A9bastien-Bach/dp/B003MY55BK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1280675975&sr=1-2

"Livraison" for some reason 9½ Euro. :o
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 01, 2010, 07:45:20 AM
Quote from: premont on August 01, 2010, 07:26:04 AM
"Livraison" for some reason 9½ Euro. :o

Even so, cheaper than Ricercar (EUR 19 v/s 25).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 03, 2010, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: premont on July 31, 2010, 11:54:57 PM
Having listened to this only once so far (received it only three days ago), It may be a bit too early to say that much, but this is a very austere and ascetic interpretation, more so than his earlier integral. He uses very simple registrations - almost only 8´and 4´stops and almost exclusively principals or flutes, and there is no use of the pedal except in Cpt. VII (for the augmented statements of the principal subject - like Corti). This is in principle to my taste as is his smooth and very little detached articulation, but the result is in practice rather vague. I would prefer more boldness and virility in his playing. And there is no tendency to create a kind of climax in the course of the work, even if he must have intended a listening at one sitting judged from the somewhat strange sequence in which he plays the Cpt.s. Fortunately there is no end Chorale, but he adds another version of the unfinished Fugue with his own very short conclusion played a  tad more bold  and strangely enough now with the use of the pedal. The organ is a modern Thomas organ modelled upon the baroque organ building in Thüringen (Trost), and the recorded sound is good.
Considered this a (modest) positive advice,
and also could not resist the prize.


Ordered! :)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 03, 2010, 10:41:15 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 03, 2010, 10:30:58 AM
Considered this a (modest) positive advice,
and also could not resist the prize.


Ordered! :)

Nor could I have resisted it, whatever the rewievers said. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 03, 2010, 10:44:36 AM
Quote from: premont on August 03, 2010, 10:41:15 AM
Nor could I have resisted it, whatever the rewievers said. ;)
Well, as the thread title claims Bach's organ rocks works! ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 03, 2010, 10:54:56 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 03, 2010, 10:44:36 AM
Well, as the thread title claims Bach's organ rocks works! ;)

Yes, it is the organists which do not always work, even if they usually work hard. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 03, 2010, 11:09:10 AM
Quote from: premont on August 03, 2010, 10:54:56 AM
Yes, it is the organists which do not always work, even if they usually work hard. ;D
Well, I won't be harsh against Foccroulle. I value him sincerely as a Bach interpreter.
Btw: I'm off now .... some other things upon my sleeve.
Good day or night to ye all! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 07, 2010, 08:28:34 AM
Had another fine organ afternoon today.
Sietze de Vries provided an organ demonstration in the Martinikerk, Groningen. Some stunning improvisations (a.o. on the Dutch folksong Merck toch hoe sterck and on Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott) and an impressive Praeludium & Fuge in e-moll BWV 548.
Enthousiastic reactions from the tourists and visitors!

Right now, back home, I'm listening to a new and very worthwhile Martini disc by Jelte Hulzebos.

(http://i37.tinypic.com/2uhl8xc.jpg)

Bach's Prelude & Fugue in B-minor BWV 244 is not on the disc, but available for download on his own website(http://www.jeltehulzebos.nl/) or here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?kra3n4qp6eva6ky
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 08, 2010, 08:05:26 AM
Visited a nice concert by Elly Kooiman at the Dorpskerk in Peize this afternoon.
The organ she played was a Verbeeck (hoofdwerk)/Schnitger (pedals)/Hinsz (rugwerk) instrument.

Here are some sound examples, taken from the OOP Bach integral by Bram Beekman.

Prelude in A-minor BWV 569
http://www.mediafire.com/?k23twkzaiwt5zh3

Ach, Got und Herr BWV 714
http://www.mediafire.com/?a4mj0qd805mozfy

Allein Gott in der Höh' sei Ehr BWV 717
http://www.mediafire.com/?v12ot1zx183t6kz

Fantasia in C-Major BWV 570
http://www.mediafire.com/?xhnr24sbu8oe59d

Enjoy!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2010, 08:14:35 PM
Anyone knows if the tracks in this box set are really SACD music or are they just regular CD music crammed into a few SACD's?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31QKDJWBV3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on August 15, 2010, 12:24:48 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on August 14, 2010, 08:14:35 PM
Anyone knows if the tracks in this box set are really SACD music or are they just regular CD music crammed into a few SACD's?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31QKDJWBV3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The latter !

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2010, 05:40:42 AM
Quote from: Que on August 15, 2010, 12:24:48 AM
The latter !

Q

Thanks Q.  That was what I read from a reviewer on Amazon.  BIS really misrepresented itself here.  I already have all the Fagius' Bach Organ Works in that mammoth 155-CD Bach set on BC.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 12, 2010, 01:09:36 AM
A nice one to have:

(http://i55.tinypic.com/2i2bo7m.jpg)

IMO: very convincing readings by Canadian Craig Frederick Humber of the so-called Leipzig Chorales, AKA "The Eighteen".
He plays the 'lesser famous' Silbermann in Freiberg, Saxony: the 2-manual/pedal organ of the Sankt Petri. In this new recording all the beautiful aspects and registration possibilities of this instrument can be enjoyed. A pity that the registrations aren't mentioned (disposition of the entire organ is presented though) in the booklet.

It's a hybrid SACD, but already in stereo the sound quality is very impressive!

http://www.amazon.com/Leipzig-Organ-Chorales-Bach/dp/B003B95B92
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Leipzig-Chorales-Craig-Humber/dp/B003B95B92/
http://www.amazon.de/Leipziger-Chor%C3%A4le-Craig-Frederick-Humber/dp/B003B95B92/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 20, 2010, 12:11:50 PM
Just mentioning this .... might be interesting, unfortunately mainly for Europeans:

(http://i51.tinypic.com/6egdw5.jpg)

Now only € 35,-- on this site:

http://www.amazon.de/Orgelwerke-auf-Silbermann-Orgeln-Otto/dp/B000TGF1G8/ref=sr_1_2/277-1408129-7063512

The recordings took place in the sixties and seventies. Many organs weren't restored yet at that time. So, they might sound 'less perfect', but IMHO it's interesting to hear many (late) organists in this oeuvre on these interesting organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 24, 2010, 10:59:26 AM
Listening to Christopher Herrick's Organ Cornucopia; nice program with some youthful and some uncertain and/or unfinished works.

(http://i51.tinypic.com/i1z6o3.jpg)

In track 29 (Prelude in C-minor BWV 531-1) I hear a 'tick' after about 01:11 minutes. It seems 'part of the tape' but I'm not entirely sure: it could be a (slight) damage.
Does this 'sound' familiar to other listeners who own this volume, too? If so, then it's most likely no damage.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 24, 2010, 11:52:38 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 24, 2010, 10:59:26 AM
In track 29 (Prelude in C-minor BWV 531-1) I hear a 'tick' after about 01:11 minutes. It seems 'part of the tape' but I'm not entirely sure: it could be a (slight) damage.
Does this 'sound' familiar to other listeners who own this volume, too? If so, then it's most likely no damage.

Have not noticed it - as far as I remember. Will check it.

A small correction: BWV 531 is in C-major (well you correctly write the "C" with capital).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 24, 2010, 12:00:29 PM
Quote from: premont on November 24, 2010, 11:52:38 AM
Have not noticed it - as far as I remember. Will check it.

A small correction: BWV 531 is in C-major (well you correctly write the "C" with capital).
Oops! :-[
Was in a minor mood probably, because of the 'tick'?

Anyway, I'm off to bed now, with slightly different music btw, but I'll save that one for later .... perhaps ....  :).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2010, 06:17:52 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 24, 2010, 10:59:26 AM
(http://i51.tinypic.com/i1z6o3.jpg)

In track 29 (Prelude in C-minor BWV 531-1) I hear a 'tick' after about 01:11 minutes. It seems 'part of the tape' but I'm not entirely sure: it could be a (slight) damage.
Does this 'sound' familiar to other listeners who own this volume, too? If so, then it's most likely no damage.

No damage, Marc; that Prelude has the same problem in my copy. IIRC, the organ concertos and Leipzig Chorales have the same problem (but several times).  :(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 27, 2010, 08:20:19 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 24, 2010, 10:59:26 AM
Listening to Christopher Herrick's Organ Cornucopia; nice program with some youthful and some uncertain and/or unfinished works.

(http://i51.tinypic.com/i1z6o3.jpg)

In track 29 (Prelude in C-minor BWV 531-1) I hear a 'tick' after about 01:11 minutes. It seems 'part of the tape' but I'm not entirely sure: it could be a (slight) damage.
Does this 'sound' familiar to other listeners who own this volume, too? If so, then it's most likely no damage.

A short and faint little crack. May however be more annoying for someone listening through earphones, what I usually do not.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2010, 09:07:45 AM
Quote from: premont on November 27, 2010, 08:20:19 AM
A short and faint little crack. May however be more annoying for someone listening through earphones, what I usually do not.

I almost never listen to music with headphones; I have tried (and purchased some nice headphones), but I can't enjoy the experience. But clearly those cracks are extremely annoying for me. Just try the toccata (1:15) of the Toccata, Adagio and Fugue in C major... Precisely that superhumanly beautiful work!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 27, 2010, 01:38:23 PM
Thanks for the response!

Btw: I didn't listen to it through headphones.
But I have very sensitive ears .... yet only if I really want to hear something. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 27, 2010, 02:06:12 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2010, 09:07:45 AM
I almost never listen to music with headphones; I have tried (and purchased some nice headphones), but I can't enjoy the experience. But clearly those cracks are extremely annoying for me. Just try the toccata (1:15) of the Toccata, Adagio and Fugue in C major... Precisely that superhumanly beautiful work!

Neither do I listen with headphones. I have a Stax Sigma set, but it can not be used with my actual HIFI equipment, so if I want to use it I have to establish my former Marantz equipment, and that is almost impracticable. And headphones is IMO not for listening BTW but for analysing.

Also I was brought up initially with 78 RPM - my parents only rather late acquired LP equipment, and I also often listen to historical recordings (on CD), so a few short cracks do not bother me. As to noise on recordings I think that noise from the audience on live recordings is more annoying.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 27, 2010, 02:08:05 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 27, 2010, 01:38:23 PM
Thanks for the response!

Btw: I didn't listen to it through headphones.
But I have very sensitive ears .... yet only if I really want to hear something. ;)

But tell yourself. that you do not want to hear those crack´s, maybe you will forget them.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 28, 2010, 06:04:54 AM
Quote from: premont on November 27, 2010, 02:06:12 PM
Neither do I listen with headphones. I have a Stax Sigma set, but it can not be used with my actual HIFI equipment, so if I want to use it I have to establish my former Marantz equipment, and that is almost impracticable. And headphones is IMO not for listening BTW but for analysing.

My opinion is rather similar.

I have three nice pairs of headphones -Sennheiser HD650, Beyerdynamic DT770 and AKG K240- and a small headphone amplifier Creek, but to listen through headphones always remains an unnatural experience because the soundstage always seems too close and immediate.   

Quote from: premont on November 27, 2010, 02:06:12 PM
As to noise on recordings I think that noise from the audience on live recordings is more annoying.

I am probably hypersensible to strange noises, but I am essentially a listener of discs.

Living performances of Baroque and Early music in general are not very usual in Chile, especially when you love period instruments and our cultural establishment still consider them a sort of eccentricity. 

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on November 28, 2010, 09:44:30 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 28, 2010, 06:04:54 AM
My opinion is rather similar.

I have three nice pairs of headphones -Sennheiser HD650, Beyerdynamic DT770 and AKG K240- and a small headphone amplifier Creek, but to listen through headphones always remains an unnatural experience because the soundstage always seems too close and immediate.   

Although I find headphones excellent for "analysis" as put by Premont, I don't have any problem with headphone listening for pure enjoyment.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on November 28, 2010, 09:57:01 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on November 28, 2010, 09:44:30 AM
Although I find headphones excellent for "analysis" as put by Premont, I don't have any problem with headphone listening for pure enjoyment.

I find it even more enjoyable, sometimes... the sound of my amp with the HD 580 and / or HD 800 is a dream. And with HD 800 you have so much space around the ears, it's more like listening to monitors.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 28, 2010, 11:04:46 AM
Quote from: premont on November 27, 2010, 02:08:05 PM
But tell yourself. that you do not want to hear those crack´s, maybe you will forget them.
Tak for opskriften, fru læge. :-*
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 28, 2010, 11:24:39 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 28, 2010, 11:04:46 AM
Tak for opskriften, fru læge. :-*

"Hr" om jeg må be´   :P

Det var ikke for at være formynderisk, men jeg synes bare, at den opskrift, jeg selv bruger, er ganske god. Men derfor er det jo ikke sikkert, at du kan bruge den.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 28, 2010, 11:37:16 AM
Oh .... errr, about eleven, sir.

But yes, I know the recipe.
I just wanted to be sure before annoying another shopkeeper with complaints.

Btw, hopefully I will find the time to do some listening to Ritchie's performance of Die Kunst der Fuge. I saw the first vid last week. It's always interesting to hear Christoph Wolff talk about Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 28, 2010, 11:55:21 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 28, 2010, 11:37:16 AM
Btw, hopefully I will find the time to do some listening to Ritchie's performance of Die Kunst der Fuge. I saw the first vid last week. It's always interesting to hear Christoph Wolff talk about Bach.

I saw this first part to day. Very interesting to see Wolff, even if he did not say anything new. Equally interesting was Ritchies comments, - a pity that his playing does not fully reflect his verbally expressed fascination of the AoF.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 07:10:19 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 07:02:25 AM
Well, in my case the symptoms are especially intense when these recordings are released by small labels because you never know if they will be available again when go out print.

Unfortunately the situation may be similar with greater labels. F.I Wolfgang Rübsam´s first Bach traversal on Philips has been OOP for at least four years, and what is going to happen with the Philips recordings??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 22, 2011, 07:18:40 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 07:10:19 AM
Unfortunately the situation may be similar with greater labels. F.I Wolfgang Rübsam´s first Bach traversal on Philips has been OOP for at least four years, and what is going to happen with the Philips recordings??

There's been no change in the status of Philips since 1980.  They have been part of Polygram/Universal/Vivendi/(whoever owns them now)   The only difference is their right to use the Philips trade mark has expired so they are called Decca now. 

A lot of mythology has grown over that set since it has been OOP for so long (I think since '96).  My brother has it (enormous package) and I ripped it but haven't listened to any of it yet.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 07:21:29 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 06:54:50 AM
Yes, we have to prevent the symptoms of CDCDCD whenever and wherever we can.  :)

Well, last week I had a serious relapse. I ordered two sets of Bach's complete organ music.  :-[


Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 07:10:19 AM
Unfortunately the situation may be similar with greater labels. F.I Wolfgang Rübsam´s first Bach traversal on Philips has been OOP for at least four years, and what is going to happen with the Philips recordings??

It's true, but re-releases of those tiny labels are almost impossible, excepting -I suppose- an eventual interest from Brilliant Classics.

I have thought it would be interesting a new thread with suggestions of re-releases, if it doesn't exist already. For example, I would want to see re-released Walcha's complete performances on harpsichord, the Beethoven piano sonatas by Badura-Skoda (on period instruments, of course) and those Haydn's symphonies performed by Derek Solomon and his gang.  :)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 07:30:32 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 22, 2011, 07:18:40 AM
There's been no change in the status of Philips since 1980.  They have been part of Polygram/Universal/Vivendi/(whoever owns them now)   The only difference is their right to use the Philips trade mark has expired so they are called Decca now. 

Yes, but will the set become available again? This is what matters.

Quote from: Scarpia on January 22, 2011, 07:18:40 AM
A lot of mythology has grown over that set since it has been OOP for so long (I think since '96).  My brother has it (enormous package) and I ripped it but haven't listened to any of it yet.

I reacquired the set on CD (got it on LP 1978) from JPC around 2005, so it has not been unavailable for 15 years.
An what do you mean with mytology? It is a very fine and temperamental HIP influenced interpretation, which you should hear if you have the opportunity to do. The only weak point is the choice of organ, a neo-baroque relative uninteresting Metzler-organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 07:45:20 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 07:21:29 AM
Well, last week I had a serious relapse. I ordered two sets of Bach's complete organ music.  :-[

Yes, Lagacé. Which was the other one?

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 07:21:29 AM
I have thought it would be interesting a new thread with suggestions of re-releases, if it doesn't exist already. For example, I would want to see re-released Walcha's complete performances on harpsichord, the Beethoven piano sonatas by Badura-Skoda (on period instruments, of course) and those Haydn's symphonies performed by Derek Solomon and his gang.  :)
'

Very much in my vein, even if I fortunately own much of this already.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 08:01:11 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 07:45:20 AM
Yes, Lagacé. Which was the other one?

Olivier Vernet... It seems to be going OOP, even on Amazon France (f.i., it's not currently available on JPC).

Probably Walcha has been the guilty. One month ago I acquired his second integral recording and I listened it completely in three weeks. After that I was again so excited about this music that my answer was to purchase two new complete sets (one, Lagace, previous listen of several discs, the other one motivated by the OOP factor).  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 08:18:55 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 08:01:11 AM
Olivier Vernet... It seems to be going OOP, even on Amazon France (f.i., it's not currently available on JPC).

Oliver Vernet? His integral was rereleased in a box about a year ago, and is already facing OOP?? Outrageous I think.
However you will not regret, that you got it in time.

Lagacé´s integral has been available for many years and attracts attention because of the inclusion of the WTC, Inventions and Goldberg Variations. At first listening he may seem rather traditional and unsensational, but repeated listening pays. His choice of organ BTW (he plays all the works on a modern von Beckerath organ withouth much character) seems uninspired.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 08:48:12 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 08:18:55 AM
Oliver Vernet? His integral was rereleased in a box about a year ago, and is already facing OOP?? Outrageous I think.
However you will not regret, that you got it in time.

Lagacé´s integral has been available for many years and attracts attention because of the inclusion of the WTC, Inventions and Goldberg Variations. At first listening he may seem rather traditional and unsensational, but repeated listening pays. His choice of organ BTW (he plays all the works on a modern von Beckerath organ withouth much character) seems uninspired.

Well, some posts ago you defined Seiler's style like "ultrainterventionalistic" (I don't know if that word exists, but it explains perfectly the concept  :)); about Lagacé, I liked his no-nonsense approach. The kind of playing that seems to come from nowhere; a sort of inevitability and slow pace that I really enjoyed. From that point of view I don't consider totally unexplainable his choice by an "aseptic" instrument. For sure, the inclusion of music composed for harpsichord is a great bonus, as it's a great bonus too that disc in Vernet's cycle, including organ versions for the concertos for several harpsichords.   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 09:04:04 AM
Quote from: premont on September 22, 2007, 06:19:29 AM

A great pity though to sell his nowadays unavailable Bach integral. Masolino, you might at least have sold it to me!! I own only one half of it, and really don´t understand what you are thinking of in writing, that you couldn´t hear his playing.


Just looked at this old post and thought that I might put in an update here as well before signing off.  In case it's not yet noticed by many in this forum, organist Bernard Foccroulle's Bach integral set is back in print in a (well sort of) compact box with a big booklet.  I only have time for one Bach organ set at the moment, and this is it.  Examples will be posted for those interested in comparisons.

(http://jsbach.up.seesaa.net/image/Foccroulle_Complete_Organ_Works.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 09:13:30 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 08:18:55 AM
Oliver Vernet? His integral was rereleased in a box about a year ago, and is already facing OOP?? Outrageous I think.

... and weird, in addition. I checked out Amazon (US, UK and DE), Presto Classical and MDT and the set is not available. I purchased the last one available on Amazon France and now it's still available, but "habituellement expédié sous 1 à 4 semaines". 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 09:18:39 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 09:13:30 AM
... and weird, in addition. I checked out Amazon (US, UK and DE), Presto Classical and MDT and the set is not available. I purchased the last one available on Amazon France and now it's still available, but "habituellement expédié sous 1 à 4 semaines".

http://www.amazon.fr/gp/offer-listing/B0013V9ROA/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 09:32:04 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 22, 2011, 09:18:39 AM
http://www.amazon.fr/gp/offer-listing/B0013V9ROA/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

AMP is frequently an option just for European buyers (and not for all of them). I supposse that this set will be still available from third parties for some time, but the price will be increasingly high. Anyway, my point was that that set is not being directly sold by a great number of major online stores which is usually a symptom of soon unavailability.   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 09:35:09 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 09:32:04 AM
AMP is frequently an option just for European buyers (and not for all of them). I supposse that this set will be still available from third parties for some time, but the price will be increasingly high. Anyway, my point was that that set is not being directly sold by a great number of major online stores which is usually a symptom of soon unavailability.

Look closer, it's still available from Amazon fr at the moment (one set left!).

The prices are lower, though, from the market place sellers.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 22, 2011, 09:37:05 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 22, 2011, 09:35:09 AM
Look closer, it's still available from Amazon fr at the moment (one set left!).

The prices are lower, though, from the market place sellers.

MP vendors almost always undercut Amazon in prices ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 09:40:54 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 22, 2011, 09:37:05 AM
MP vendors almost always undercut Amazon in prices ...

Although they don't always deliver, which can be a huge disappointment if you really desire the item.

The Vernet set is one great sounding organ disc.  Interested buyers need not hesitate.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 22, 2011, 09:45:04 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 22, 2011, 09:40:54 AM
Although they don't always deliver, which can be a huge disappointment if you really desire the item.

The Vernet set is one great sounding organ disc.  Interested buyers need not hesitate.

With 8 complete Bach Organ Works cycles, I am essentially done.  I would, however, like to get the third cycle recorded by Marie-Claire Alain ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 09:50:21 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 22, 2011, 09:35:09 AM
Look closer, it's still available from Amazon fr at the moment (one set left!).

The prices are lower, though, from the market place sellers.

I don't need to look closer because I already purchased this set and it's now here in customs. When I bought my copy, just one was shown in stock, but after my purchase the stock was not modified by Amazon. Anyway, on Amazon.fr you also find this link:

http://www.amazon.fr/Complete-Works-Organ-Bach/dp/B002ZXZJ92/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295721682&sr=1-1
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 09:56:55 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 22, 2011, 09:04:04 AM
Just looked at this old post and thought that I might put in an update here as well before signing off.  In case it's not yet noticed by many in this forum, organist Bernard Foccroulle's Bach integral set is back in print in a (well sort of) compact box with a big booklet.  I only have time for one Bach organ set at the moment, and this is it.  Examples will be posted for those interested in comparisons.

Yes, I remember that post well. As you may guess, I acquired the complete set as soon as it was rereleased in the box your picture depicts.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 09:58:31 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 22, 2011, 09:45:04 AM
With 8 complete Bach Organ Works cycles, I am essentially done.  I would, however, like to get the third cycle recorded by Marie-Claire Alain ...

With 32 complete Bach organ sets I am essentially still undone.  :o
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 10:04:08 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 09:32:04 AM
AMP is frequently an option just for European buyers (and not for all of them). I supposse that this set will be still available from third parties for some time, but the price will be increasingly high.

Especially at AMP France I often got the information from some sellers that the item was not sent to my country, and I live in Europe, so this is no guarantee by itself. :(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 22, 2011, 10:20:31 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 09:58:31 AM
With 32 complete Bach organ sets I am essentially still undone.  :o

We clearly have very different priorities.  I see no reason to own more than 10 versions of Bach Complete Organ Works, though I am closing in on 20 versions of SMP ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 10:23:46 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 08:48:12 AM
Well, some posts ago you defined Seiler's style like "ultrainterventionalistic" (I don't know if that word exists, but it explains perfectly the concept  :));

Nor do I know if the word  exists, but sometimes you have to make a neologism to express yourself properly.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 08:48:12 AM
About Lagacé, I liked his no-nonsense approach. The kind of playing that seems to come from nowhere; a sort of inevitability and slow pace that I really enjoyed. From that point of view I don't consider totally unexplainable his choice by an "aseptic" instrument.

I am convinced that the music and Lagacé´s view upon it had been better served by the use of period instruments, f.i. a selection of Gottfried Silbermann instruments. Compare with the not quite unsimilar (as to interpretation) East German "Bach on Silbermann organs" set (recently favorably rereleased by Berlin Classics).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 11:08:59 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 10:23:46 AM
Nor do I know if the word  exists, but sometimes you have to make a neologism to express yourself properly.

That's natural, all new thing requires its own name.

The appearance or creation of a new word is frequently a phenomenon worth to be studied. I recall some time ago, I was interested in the origins of the word "optimism" and all its derivations. I discoverd that the word "optimism" had its origin at the beginning of the XVIII century, as a consequence of Leibniz' philosophy, with a sense principally ironic. I mention it because sometimes we think some words have always existed.

Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 10:23:46 AM
I am convinced that the music and Lagacé´s view upon it had been better served by the use of period instruments, f.i. a selection of Gottfried Silbermann instruments. Compare with the not quite unsimilar (as to interpretation) East German "Bach on Silbermann organs" set (recently favorably rereleased by Berlin Classics).

Me too, but I'm saying another thing: When you opt for a non-interventionist approach, the option by a sort of non-interventionist, generic or neutral instrument can be "not totally unexplainable", just that.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 22, 2011, 11:13:27 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 09:58:31 AM
With 32 complete Bach organ sets I am essentially still undone.  :o

That is a very impressive number. 8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 11:19:34 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 09:50:21 AM

Anyway, on Amazon.fr you also find this link:

http://www.amazon.fr/Complete-Works-Organ-Bach/dp/B002ZXZJ92/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295721682&sr=1-1

So THAT's the one you bought.

Here's another:

http://www.amazon.fr/LOeuvre-Pour-Orgue-Jean-Sébastien-Bach/dp/B0013V9ROA/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1295727472&sr=1-1

If you happen to need a duplicate....now you know the set is not sold out yet. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 11:29:55 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 22, 2011, 11:19:34 AM
Here's another:

http://www.amazon.fr/LOeuvre-Pour-Orgue-Jean-Sébastien-Bach/dp/B0013V9ROA/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1295727472&sr=1-1

This is the answer I recieve when trying to access your link:

Vous recherchez une page ?
L'adresse internet que vous avez entrée dans votre navigateur ne correspond à aucune page active de notre site.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 11:32:25 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 11:08:59 AM
Me too, but I'm saying another thing: When you opt for a non-interventionist approach, the option by a sort of non-interventionist, generic or neutral instrument can be "not totally unexplainable", just that.

Well, some things may be explained but not really understood.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 11:32:57 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 11:29:55 AM
This is the answer I recieve when trying to axccess your link:

Vous recherchez une page ?
L'adresse internet que vous avez entrée dans votre navigateur ne correspond à aucune page active de notre site.

The link is a bit overlong.  Try this:

http://tinyurl.com/4h7tmlc

Get it?   ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 11:34:20 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 22, 2011, 11:13:27 AM
That is a very impressive number. 8)

But first and foremost impressive listening. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 11:39:42 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 22, 2011, 11:19:34 AM
So THAT's the one you bought.

Here's another:

http://www.amazon.fr/LOeuvre-Pour-Orgue-Jean-Sébastien-Bach/dp/B0013V9ROA/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1295727472&sr=1-1

If you happen to need a duplicate....now you know the set is not sold out yet. ;)

Nope.

Believe on me, masolino. I'm not under interdiction and I know exactly what I do.  :) The link you provide is the link I used when I bought that set at the beginning of this week (it has a cover and AMP links, the other one no), but Amazon France didn't modify the stock when I bought the last copy supposedly available. Maybe they had two sets and had forgotten it or maybe they simply forgot to modify the link (which is not infrequent at Amazon)... but I bought my set through that link.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 11:40:12 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 22, 2011, 11:32:57 AM
Get it?   ;)

Yes. I do not think I payed Amazon.fr that much for it (67 Euro´s) one year ago.

Edit: it was two years ago, time is passing fast.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 11:46:16 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 11:32:25 AM
Well, some things may be explained but not really understood.

I think the opposite works out better: some things may be understood, but not explained.  :)

P.S.: I thought to add - some things may be showed, but not proved... and music is a daily demonstration...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 11:47:59 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 11:39:42 AM
Nope.

Believe on me, masolino. I'm not under interdiction and I know exactly what I do.  :) The link you provide is the link I used when I bought that set at the beginning of this week (it has a cover and AMP links, the other one no), but Amazon France didn't modify the stock when I bought the last copy supposedly available. Maybe they had two sets and had forgotten it or maybe they simply forgot to modify the link (which is not infrequent at Amazon)... but I bought my set through that link.

OK.  Don't know what happened earlier, but the box is in stock again (one set only).  ;)
A very interesting whodunit story.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 11:53:39 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 11:40:12 AM
Yes. I do not think I payed Amazon.fr that much for it (67 Euro´s) one year ago.

Euro has lost a bit of its value through inflation since last year, no?  Anyway we all know a bargain when it comes our way. 

It's even cheaper here :o : http://www.amazon.it/LOeuvre-Pour-Orgue-Edizione-Francia/dp/B0013V9ROA/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 11:57:56 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 22, 2011, 11:47:59 AM
OK.  Don't know what happened earlier, but the box is in stock again (one set only).  ;)

OK.  ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 12:03:03 PM
Quote from: masolino on January 22, 2011, 11:53:39 AM
It's even cheaper here :o : http://www.amazon.it/LOeuvre-Pour-Orgue-Edizione-Francia/dp/B0013V9ROA/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt

Amazing... I have never seen this Italian Amazon.

Even when you search for Amazon Europe this is the result:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/gateway-eu

Maybe that's the same copy on Amazon France!  :P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 12:05:25 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 11:46:16 AM
I think the opposite works out better: some things may be understood, but not explained.  :)

Yes, but you used the term "not totally unexplainable" above. I now understand your explanation in that way, that you meant "rather unexplainable, but still understandable". Or would you mind to explain in a way I can understand?? :) ;)

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 11:46:16 AM
P.S.: I thought to add - some things may be showed, but not proved... and music is a daily demonstration...

On the other hand, this is certainly true.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 12:09:58 PM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 12:05:25 PM
I now understand your explanation in that way, that you meant "rather unexplainable, but still understandable".

That's exactly what I tried to say.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 12:10:11 PM
Quote from: masolino on January 22, 2011, 11:53:39 AM
It's even cheaper here :o : http://www.amazon.it/LOeuvre-Pour-Orgue-Edizione-Francia/dp/B0013V9ROA/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt

This site is new to me too. Thanks very much for the link. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 12:12:37 PM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 12:10:11 PM
This site is new to me too. Thanks very much for the link. :)

Indeed you are welcome.  Let's see if they have the Real Chopin box on cheap, too... ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 12:44:02 PM
Quote from: masolino on January 22, 2011, 12:12:37 PM
Indeed you are welcome.  Let's see if they have the Real Chopin box on cheap, too... ;)

In 2010 I acquired six individual CDs from that box, the ones which interested me the most of course, among them Fou Ts´ong´s mazurkas.  I do not think that my (OK, limited) interest in Chopin justifies more than the purchase of one or two CDs more from that box, so I am not going to get the complete box. But Amazon.it lists other things - I have just ordered a number of Frescobaldi CDs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 12:51:07 PM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 12:44:02 PM
In 2010 I acquired six individual CDs from that box, the ones which interested me the most of course, among them Fou Ts´ong´s mazurkas.  I do not think that my (OK, limited) interest in Chopin justifies more than the purchase of one or two CDs more from that box, so I am not going to get the complete box. But Amazon.it lists other things - I have just ordered a number of Frescobaldi CDs.

I immediately searched the Alessio Corti set, but it doesn't appear in existence.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 01:08:39 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 12:51:07 PM
I immediately searched the Alessio Corti set, but it doesn't appear in existence.

You may know, that JPC lists it for 169 Euro.
Expensive (19 CDs though) but worth the cost.
I payed about 150 Euros for it three years ago.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Orgelwerke-Ges-Aufn/hnum/3431636
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 05:19:21 PM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 01:08:39 PM
You may know, that JPC lists it for 169 Euro.
Expensive (19 CDs though) but worth the cost.
I payed about 150 Euros for it three years ago.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Orgelwerke-Ges-Aufn/hnum/3431636

Yes, I know it.

Several times it has been in my cart, but finally I have postponed the purchase because it would cost approximately EUR 248 [EUR 170, plus EUR 28 (shipping and handlig) and plus EUR 50 (taxes)]. But definitively I must buy it soon.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 23, 2011, 11:09:55 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 09:58:31 AM
With 32 complete Bach organ sets I am essentially still undone.  :o

Pralhals!

Quote from: Bulldog on January 22, 2011, 11:13:27 AM
That is a very impressive number. 8)

Spytslikker!

I have about 20 'complete' Bach organ sets.
Two years ago I only had one.

Any comments on THAT? Huh?

>:D

You know my name, look up the number!

Oh, and about Olivier Vernet's integral getting 'slowly OOP': if one has the chance to buy it, one can easily do so. One shall not mourn that purchase. And I should know because I have about 20 integrals! ;D
About Lagacé's set: after some examples from the library I decided not to go for it. Mainly caused by the dull organ. The Goldbergs et al stuff are interesting add-ons, though.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 23, 2011, 01:10:25 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 23, 2011, 11:09:55 AM

Oh, and about Olivier Vernet's integral getting 'slowly OOP': if one has the chance to buy it, one can easily do so. One shall not mourn that purchase. And I should know because I have about 20 integrals! ;D

Is Vernet in the top three? :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 23, 2011, 01:33:02 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 23, 2011, 11:09:55 AM


I have about 20 'complete' Bach organ sets.
Two years ago I only had one.

Any comments on THAT? Huh?

>:D


Yes, very impressive number.


BTW the correct number I own is 33, above I forgot Kevin Bovyer, which I purchased at a Presto sale half a year ago.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 23, 2011, 01:35:02 PM
Quote from: Que on January 23, 2011, 01:10:25 PM
Is Vernet in the top three? :)

Q

No, not in my book, the competition is too strong, but he is at least in the top ten.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: PaulSC on January 23, 2011, 01:41:30 PM
Is Werner Jacob in the top 32? (Or is anyone else an even greater disappointment?)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 23, 2011, 01:56:39 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on January 23, 2011, 01:41:30 PM
Is Werner Jacob in the top 32? (Or is anyone else an even greater disappointment?)

Werner Jacobs set  is rather uneven IMO, but very good when best (f.i. Steinkirchen and Naumburg). One of the interesting things about his set is his choice of a host of different historical more or less well restored organs. He is difficult to rank in a strict sense. I am happy to own his set, though. Even the sets I appreciate the least (Chapuis and  Preston) have some good moments, not the least because of the choice of organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 23, 2011, 01:59:22 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on January 23, 2011, 01:41:30 PM
Is Werner Jacob in the top 32? (Or is anyone else an even greater disappointment?)

Kevin Bovyer, IMHO.

I'm sure Premont bought it just because of completist reasons.  ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 23, 2011, 02:02:06 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 23, 2011, 01:59:22 PM
Kevin Bovyer, IMHO.

Well, I rate Bovyer higher than Chapuis and Preston, but you may well guess, why I forgot him in my counting above (32/33).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 23, 2011, 02:03:55 PM
Quote from: premont on January 23, 2011, 02:02:06 PM
Well, I rate Bovyer higher than Chapuis and Preston, but you may well guess, why I forgot him in my counting above (32/33).

Well, before your answer I added a second paragraph to my post.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: PaulSC on January 23, 2011, 02:10:13 PM
Quote from: premont on January 23, 2011, 01:56:39 PM
Werner Jacobs set  is rather uneven IMO, but very good when best (f.i. Steinkirchen and Naumburg). One of the interesting things about his set is his choice of a host of different historical more or less well restored organs. He is difficult to rank in a strict sense. I am happy to own his set, though. Even the sets I appreciate the least (Chapuis and  Preston) have some good moments, not the least because of the choice of organs.
That's good to hear. It was a recent purchase for me, and the listening I've done so far -- mainly to fugal works -- has left me mainly disappointed. But I will try some of the items you cite as peaks, and I'll try approaching it too as a chance to hear instruments of historical interest. So far I only own W Jacob and Kibbie, and I've tended to prefer the latter. (And I have Ponsford's Clavierübung III, which I enjoy a great deal.) I've more or less decided to spend more time with what I've got, and then to seek out recommended individual recordings of the works that emerge as my favorites...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 23, 2011, 02:23:46 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 23, 2011, 11:09:55 AM
Oh, and about Olivier Vernet's integral getting 'slowly OOP': if one has the chance to buy it, one can easily do so. One shall not mourn that purchase.

It won't be the first time Olivier Vernet's integral going 'OOP' anyway - before its current incarnation there was an 'integral' of 15 discs:

(http://cdn.tower.jp/zz/m/6757/675754101121.jpg)

I still have a small pile of them at home in Taiwan, having bought them for peanuts from Barnes and Noble due to their wonderful misprice. (Those were the good old days when they were far more generous about mispricing.)  They make a really nice gift for both audiophiles and organ nuts.  Listening to that powered subwoofer shake the room always brings a big grin on their face.  'Shall not mourn that purchase'  Amen to that!

BTW I agree with your view on the Legace: I don't like his choice of tempi in too many cases.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 23, 2011, 02:36:30 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 23, 2011, 02:03:55 PM
Well, before your answer I added a second paragraph to my post.  :)

Never mind, you are right all the same. Initally some years ago I acquired his Clavierübung III and some CDs with miscellaneous works, and later his AoF. Then I decided to stop,until I saw the integral at half price in a sale. And the completist in me hit at once.  ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 23, 2011, 03:11:16 PM
OK - Bach Organ experts - this is my first post here - I'm just not an organ guy (i.e. meaning the instrument in churches or elsewhere -  :D) - I own very little organ music (currently just a few CDs of even JS Bach's works) - BUT now in the mail is a 16 disc package w/ Koopman (shown below) which Amazon is offering for just $14 - so, my question knowing that there are many other options, is this a good representation of Bach's organ music?  I do collect multiple versions of Papa Bach's other compositions, but would like just a single collection of his organ works - thanks (and I know that many alternatives will appear) -   :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6163rBZgIcL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 23, 2011, 03:14:38 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 23, 2011, 03:11:16 PM
OK - Bach Organ experts - this is my first post here - I'm just not an organ guy (i.e. meaning the instrument in churches or elsewhere -  :D) - I own very little organ music (currently just a few CDs of even JS Bach's works) - BUT now in the mail is a 16 disc package w/ Koopman (shown below) which Amazon is offering for just $14 - so, my question knowing that there are many other options, is this a good representation of Bach's organ music?  I do collect multiple versions of Papa Bach's other compositions, but would like just a single collection of his organ works - thanks (and I know that many alternatives will appear) -   :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6163rBZgIcL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Grab it, if this offer is real,-  you will not regret it. And later you will want some more integrals, but each problem to its own, if you understand what I mean. :) ;) :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 23, 2011, 03:20:59 PM
Quote from: premont on January 23, 2011, 03:14:38 PM
Grab it, if this offer is real,-  you will not regret it. And later you will want some more integrals, but each problem to its own, if you understand what I mean. :) ;) :)

Hi Premont - thanks for your response; the box is in the mail to me at the price indicated & confirmed in an e-mail - not sure if this is a mistake but a GREAT deal!  Dave  :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 23, 2011, 11:41:14 PM
Re: subject - Of course it does!

Bach's Prelude in E-flat major, BWV 552.1

http://www.youtube.com/v/uF8NSNK_VwE


ps. As with most of my homemade youtube clips, please use the HD (720p) setting for optimal sound quality.




Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 24, 2011, 10:16:49 AM
The matching fugue to the above:

http://www.youtube.com/v/8_hDFuvV1eo

Thank you, premont, for promising to tell us who recorded this.  You are the pro!  ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 24, 2011, 10:39:08 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 24, 2011, 10:16:49 AM
The matching fugue to the above:

http://www.youtube.com/v/8_hDFuvV1eo

Thank you, premont, for promising to tell us who recorded this.  You are the pro!  ;D

I don't know who plays the Fugue, but it sounds very much like Noel Rawsthorne on a Regis disc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 24, 2011, 10:51:58 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 24, 2011, 10:39:08 AM
I don't know who plays the Fugue, but it sounds very much like Noel Rawsthorne on a Regis disc.

No it's not Mr Rawthorne. I don't even own any Regis recording.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 24, 2011, 11:02:51 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 24, 2011, 10:51:58 AM
No it's not Mr Rawthorne. I don't even own any Regis recording.

And I only have one.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 24, 2011, 11:05:47 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 24, 2011, 11:02:51 AM
And I only have one.

I am not surprised: it's a British label!  :D  (Sorry bad joke.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 24, 2011, 11:16:37 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 24, 2011, 10:16:49 AM
Thank you, premont, for promising to tell us who recorded this.  You are the pro!  ;D

Could it be Simon Preston?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 24, 2011, 11:22:52 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 23, 2011, 03:11:16 PM
OK - Bach Organ experts - this is my first post here - I'm just not an organ guy (i.e. meaning the instrument in churches or elsewhere - :D) - I own very little organ music (currently just a few CDs of even JS Bach's works) - BUT now in the mail is a 16 disc package w/ Koopman (shown below) which Amazon is offering for just $14 - so, my question knowing that there are many other options, is this a good representation of Bach's organ music?  I do collect multiple versions of Papa Bach's other compositions, but would like just a single collection of his organ works - thanks (and I know that many alternatives will appear) -  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6163rBZgIcL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

:o

14 US Dollars?

WOW!

As Premont said: take it.
Koopman is quite good: he can be (very) joyful, with many adornments, but he doesn't neglect the gravity if necessary. His choice of organs is very good, too.
I must add though that I know his DG/Archiv and Novalis (Brilliant Classics) recordings better than these Teldecs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 24, 2011, 11:28:44 AM
Quote from: Que on January 23, 2011, 01:10:25 PM
Is Vernet in the top three? :)
Again I go along with mr. Premont: nope, but he's a Top Tenner for sure. I prefer Vernet f.i. to his teacher M-C Alain .... and I do rate her high already.

My Top 3 would prabobaly be: Kooiman (Coronata, OOP), Beekman (Lindenberg, OOP) and Foccroulle (Ricercar, re-issued in 2009).
The guys from the Pays-Bas! ;D

(Nothing but sheer chauvinism, of course. :P)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 24, 2011, 11:45:59 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 24, 2011, 11:16:37 AM
Could it be Simon Preston?

No.  Does this playing sound particularly British to our ears?  Just wondering. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 24, 2011, 11:50:01 AM
Another performance of the 'St Anne' P&F will be uploaded later for comparison, but now one of my favourite of all Bach fugues, the e-minor 'wedge'. Guess who's playing?  Different from the one before, of course.

http://www.youtube.com/v/viVdwi-Y0AQ
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 24, 2011, 12:45:52 PM
Quote from: masolino on January 23, 2011, 11:41:14 PM
Re: subject - Of course it does!

Bach's Prelude in E-flat major, BWV 552.1

http://www.youtube.com/v/uF8NSNK_VwE


ps. As with most of my homemade youtube clips, please use the HD (720p) setting for optimal sound quality.

I got the time to listen to this in a short pause at work, my first thought is Michel Chapuis.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 24, 2011, 12:55:00 PM
Quote from: premont on January 24, 2011, 12:45:52 PM
I got the time to listen to this in a short pause at work, my first thought is Michel Chapuis.

Correct! Impressive!  I thought it wouldn't take you long at all.  :)

Can you tell us what features in his playing particularly alerted you to this identification? 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 24, 2011, 01:00:14 PM
Quote from: masolino on January 24, 2011, 12:55:00 PM
Correct! Impressive!  I thought it wouldn't take you long at all.  :)

I haven´t got time for more listening now. But this is a rather interesting game. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 24, 2011, 01:02:07 PM
Quote from: masolino on January 24, 2011, 12:55:00 PM
Can you tell us what features in his playing particularly alerted you to this identification?

His mechanical a bit sloppy playing, and the sound of that particular organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 24, 2011, 01:03:34 PM
Quote from: premont on January 24, 2011, 01:00:14 PM
But this is a rather interesting game. :)

I know! It really shows those who listen 'hard' to their music.  :) 

Quote from: premont on January 24, 2011, 01:02:07 PM
His mechanical a bit sloppy playing, and the sound of that particular organ.

Interesting description, I will try to recall this when I listen to the CD's in the future.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: RJR on January 24, 2011, 06:52:09 PM
Marie-Claire Alain has recorded the complete Bach organ works three times. That's dedication.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 24, 2011, 10:03:08 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 24, 2011, 11:28:44 AM
Again I go along with mr. Premont: nope, but he's a Top Tenner for sure. I prefer Vernet f.i. to his teacher M-C Alain .... and I do rate her high already.

My Top 3 would prabobaly be: Kooiman (Coronata, OOP), Beekman (Lindenberg, OOP) and Foccroulle (Ricercar, re-issued in 2009).
The guys from the Pays-Bas! ;D

(Nothing but sheer chauvinism, of course. :P)

Thanks! Pity though two of them are OOP - Brilliant Classics should take one or both under its wings and reissue! $:) And if only Kooiman could have finished his cycle for Aeolus ...  :-\

Surprised about the mentioning of Foccroulle! I guess I should give him more serious consideration.

On topic of the French (Vernet): if Ablitzer would do a Bach cycle, I would snatch it up right away! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 24, 2011, 10:46:23 PM
Quote from: masolino on January 24, 2011, 11:45:59 AM
No.  Does this playing sound particularly British to our ears?  Just wondering.

Maybe because I thought it was a bit superficial?
I only listened to the fugue and I thought: a bit shallow, sometimes way too fast and hasty, not entirely my cup of tea .... ah! Preston. ;)

Of course our Danish organ connaisseur got it all right.

I borrowed one or two discs with Chapuis, back in 2009. I did not like it very much, not even in the chorales I listened to.
About Preston: he's definitely not my fave in the 'free' works. But he offers some great things in the chorales and the Trio Sonatas, IMO.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 24, 2011, 10:47:39 PM
Quote from: RJR on January 24, 2011, 06:52:09 PM
Marie-Claire Alain has recorded the complete Bach organ works three times. That's dedication.

So did Lionel Rogg.
And Ewald Kooiman planned to. But he died at 1/3 of his third integral.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 24, 2011, 11:02:54 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 24, 2011, 10:46:23 PM
Maybe because I thought it was a bit superficial?

I have heard exactly the same criticism levied on Ton Koopman's recordings of Bach organ works before!  Not surprisingly, by some Brits.  ;)  And Michel Chapuis is French - so superficiality in Bach is definitely not a national attribute!  No, not all Japanese organists play like that bland Masaaki Suzuki.  ;)  (And to think that Suzuki took lessons from Koopman!)

Quote
Of course our Danish organ connaisseur got it all right.

I do not think many at this forum have listened as much or as deeply in this repertory as he does.  And the 'guess who's playing' game is demanding with the requirement of aural memory as well.  Oh well, at least it was a good idea. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 24, 2011, 11:24:43 PM
Quote from: masolino on January 24, 2011, 11:02:54 PM
I have heard exactly the same criticism levied on Ton Koopman's recordings of Bach organ works before!  Not surprisingly, by some Brits.  ;)  And Michel Chapuis is French - so superficiality in Bach is definitely not a national attribute!  No, not all Japanese organists play like that bland Masaaki Suzuki.  ;)  (And to think that Suzuki took lessons from Koopman!)

Generalizing is never good. 0:)

Still, generally writing ;), my favourite Bach musicians weren't born in the UK.

I've listened to at least four Brittany organists in Bach (Hurford, Herrick, Preston and Bowyer), and they don't make it into my top ten.
Which doesn't mean they have nothing to offer!
In fact, up to now, my humble conclusions are that there is always something to enjoy with almost any interpreter.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 24, 2011, 11:33:28 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 24, 2011, 11:24:43 PM
Generalizing is never good. 0:)

Indeed, but I think the problem lies more with the question 'what counts for profundity in Bach?'   I believe the answer is culturally relative, often in quite subtle ways.  Of course, cultures can be national, social, local or even personal ones.  No
wonder, as I have discovered, every kind of Bach interpretation can be deemed either superficial or boring or both.  It all
depends on who's judging.  And this is not to take anything away from your last comment, that there is always something to savour with every performer. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 25, 2011, 12:39:21 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 24, 2011, 10:16:49 AM
The matching fugue to the above:

http://www.youtube.com/v/8_hDFuvV1eo

Thank you, premont, for promising to tell us who recorded this.  You are the pro!  ;D
'

This is also Michel Chapuis. Reminds me of why I do not listen to him often. Again we hear sloppy playing, because he has chosen a tempo for the last section which is to fast for his comfort.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 25, 2011, 12:43:44 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 24, 2011, 11:28:44 AM
Again I go along with mr. Premont: nope, but he's a Top Tenner for sure. I prefer Vernet f.i. to his teacher M-C Alain .... and I do rate her high already.

My Top 3 would prabobaly be: Kooiman (Coronata, OOP), Beekman (Lindenberg, OOP) and Foccroulle (Ricercar, re-issued in 2009).
The guys from the Pays-Bas! ;D

(Nothing but sheer chauvinism, of course. :P)

My top three also, with the exception that I am a little in doubt, whether I should rank Foccroulle or Alain II (despite her use of modern organs) as no.3. The other would then be no. 4.

But please do not call me a SPYTSLIKKER for that reason. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 25, 2011, 12:50:32 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 24, 2011, 11:24:43 PM
In fact, up to now, my humble conclusions are that there is always something to enjoy with almost any interpreter.

Completely agreed. Even Chapuis has got his better moments (f.i. the Vivaldi concerto arrangements and the miscellaneous corales), and this is why I rarely part with any Bach organ recording. I have to confess though, that I parted with the above mentioned Rawshorne CD on Regis.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 25, 2011, 01:00:02 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 24, 2011, 11:33:28 PM
Indeed, but I think the problem lies more with the question 'what counts for profundity in Bach?'   I believe the answer is culturally relative, often in quite subtle ways.  Of course, cultures can be national, social, local or even personal ones.  No
wonder, as I have discovered, every kind of Bach interpretation can be deemed either superficial or boring or both.  It all
depends on who's judging. 

Generally - ups. generalizing is a bad thing >:( - I find it easier to recognize superficiality than profundity. Who f.i. has made the most profund recording of Bach´s cello suites on v. da spalla? Kuijken? Terakado? Badiarov? And does it matter at all to put a question like that?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 25, 2011, 01:17:41 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 24, 2011, 11:50:01 AM
Another performance of the 'St Anne' P&F will be uploaded later for comparison, but now one of my favourite of all Bach fugues, the e-minor 'wedge'. Guess who's playing?  Different from the one before, of course.

http://www.youtube.com/v/viVdwi-Y0AQ

This is a master musician. Simple, very noble and devoted interpretation, impeccable fingers and feet, clear and unfussy plenum registrations. My first association is Marie-Claire Alain - if so her second recording. This time I have to consult my shelves to make sure.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 25, 2011, 05:05:30 AM
Quote from: premont on January 25, 2011, 01:17:41 AM
This is a master musician. Simple, very noble and devoted interpretation, impeccable fingers and feet, clear and unfussy plenum registrations. My first association is Marie-Claire Alain - if so her second recording. This time I have to consult my shelves to make sure.

Listening to Alains recording afterwards reveals a very similar interpretation (very much what I had in my mind) but ca 15 sec. shorter in duration. I am confused,
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 25, 2011, 05:37:10 AM
Quote from: premont on January 25, 2011, 05:05:30 AM
Listening to Alains recording afterwards reveals a very similar interpretation (very much what I had in my mind) but ca 15 sec. shorter in duration. I am confused,

You are right again re the second Chapuis track, essentially a continuation of the first track style-wise.

The 'wedge' fugue is played by Alessio Corti.  I only have 2x2=4 discs from his set (again bought very cheaply ca. £2-3 each double set).  As you commented elsewhere, the main drawbacks of his set have little to do with his interpretation or performance.   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 25, 2011, 06:27:50 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 25, 2011, 05:37:10 AM
The 'wedge' fugue is played by Alessio Corti.  I only have 2x2=4 discs from his set (again bought very cheaply ca. £2-3 each double set).  As you commented elsewhere, the main drawbacks of his set have little to do with his interpretation or performance.

Oh, you should not have told me this that early. Even if I did not think of him yet, I think mainly because the organ sounds more CentralGerman, than I remembered.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 25, 2011, 06:32:14 AM
Quote from: premont on January 25, 2011, 12:50:32 AM
Completely agreed. Even Chapuis has got his better moments (f.i. the Vivaldi concerto arrangements and the miscellaneous corales), and this is why I rarely part with any Bach organ recording. I have to confess though, that I parted with the above mentioned Rawshorne CD on Regis.

The last sentence surprised me a little as the Rawsthorne is one of my favored Bach single discs. :(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 25, 2011, 06:45:19 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on January 25, 2011, 06:32:14 AM
The last sentence surprised me a little as the Rawsthorne is one of my favored Bach single discs. :(

I am surprised - probably just as much as you are.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 25, 2011, 09:29:01 AM
Quote from: premont on January 25, 2011, 06:27:50 AM
Oh, you should not have told me this that early. Even if I did not think of him yet, I think mainly because the organ sounds more CentralGerman, than I remembered.

Yes, Corti's Tamburinis are not ideal (recording sound is also not very pithy), but IMO they're much better than f.i. the Montréal Beckerath used by Lagacé. I think I even prefer them to Bowyer's rather cold Marcussen (Odense).

I was at the office today and didn't have the chance to listen to the BWV 548 sound example. But when I read that it was Corti I just had to smile, because Masolino, after uploading Premont's 'number four', also managed to upload my 'number four'. :)

(And it's Kooiman the Second who's in the lead, a neck in front from Beekman, third is Foccroulle followed by Corti. Next in the field is Rübsam the First from Ritchie, behind them there's a packed group lead by Koopman, Vernet and Alain the Second, with Weinberger, Fagius and both Walcha's not that far away. Then comes Steinberger with Rogg the Second, and Vad and Hurford are still very close with maybe a chance to make up some ground in the next hundred yards or so. :P)

I'd like to add though that this is only a silly 'race' between completists.
As has been said many times before in this thread, there are very good Bach organists who never recorded an integral, like Oster, Friedrich, Bleicher, Ghielmi, Van Beek, Van Doeselaar and new talents like Benjamin Alard .... and many gifted others.

Yes, Bach's organ keeps on working! :)

Post Scriptum -> about the thread title: has that exclamation mark been there all the time?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 25, 2011, 10:19:48 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 25, 2011, 09:29:01 AM
I was at the office today and didn't have the chance to listen to the BWV 548 sound example. But when I read that it was Corti I just had to smile, because Masolino, after uploading Premont's 'number four', also managed to upload my 'number four'. :)

Now I am glad that I have finally uploaded something worthy.  ;)  Saw somebody loaded Chapuis' performance of the 'wedge' fugue at youtube, and thought it might be ok to post it here for a neck-to-neck comparison with the current no. 4  :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/8QJN6Q8OG3I

In comparison it does sound a bit..hmm...like a chugging train?   ;)
Also, reading a bit of the comments on the youtube page, you'd be surprised the number of admirers it's got.  They should come and have a few 'J. S. Bach's Organ Works!' sessions with Messrs. Premont and Marc.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 25, 2011, 11:00:38 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 25, 2011, 10:19:48 AM
Now I am glad that I have finally uploaded something worthy. ;) Saw somebody loaded Chapuis' performance of the 'wedge' fugue at youtube, and thought it might be ok to post it here for a neck-to-neck comparison with the current no. 4 :)

[YouTube-link of Chapuis]

In comparison it does sound a bit..hmm...like a chugging train?   ;)
Also, reading a bit of the comments on the youtube page, you'd be surprised the number of admirers it's got.  They should come and have a few 'J. S. Bach's Organ Works!' sessions with Messrs. Premont and Marc. :)

I think the Zwolle organ isn't the easiest instrument to record, either (high pitch).
About Chapuis admirers: why not? AFAIK, he's a rather famous Bach organist worldwide.
In the summer of 2009 I talked with a man who enjoyed Guillou's recording of BWV 565 most .... to each and everyone their own.

Here's another complete BWV 548 in E-minor. This composition is definitely one of my favourite Bach works.

Is it played in an acceptable way here?

http://www.mediafire.com/?5x944y5p9b2bc9y
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 25, 2011, 11:19:24 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 25, 2011, 11:00:38 AM

Here's another complete BWV 548 in E-minor. This composition is definitely one of my favourite Bach works.

Is it played in an acceptable way here?

http://www.mediafire.com/?5x944y5p9b2bc9y

Thanks!  I cut right to the beginning of the fugue and found some pretty breezy tempo.  Will have a decent listen later.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 25, 2011, 11:28:33 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 25, 2011, 11:00:38 AM

In the summer of 2009 I talked with a man who enjoyed Guillou's recording of BWV 565 most .... to each and everyone their own.

Ahh... that statement alone gives me the creeps. As does Guillou or the thought of his playing. Was he ever good as a young man to have gotten any of that (presumed) fame?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 25, 2011, 11:37:35 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 25, 2011, 09:29:01 AM

Post Scriptum -> about the thread title: has that exclamation mark been there all the time?

Nope.  ;D My little nudge towards all the previous puns on the thread title... 8)

Great fun that this thread has come to live again! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 25, 2011, 12:00:58 PM
Ton Koopman plays the 'wedge'  :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/DZCn8B7U7nM

It is quite similar to the track Marc posted a while back (see above) in style and basic mood.  ;)


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 25, 2011, 11:44:30 PM
Quote from: premont on January 25, 2011, 12:43:44 AM
My top three also, with the exception that I am a little in doubt, whether I should rank Foccroulle or Alain II (despite her use of modern organs) as no.3. The other would then be no. 4.

Not even a mention for Walcha... It's a bit disheartening, guys! Specially considering that Premont has been a principal influence to discover this master musician. I would even doubt if to exclude one of his integrals from the top three!

I just have thirteen complete sets -and two of them have been recently acquired, so I have not listened to those two at all-, but today Foccroulle and M-C Alain are my second and third choices after Walcha. Unfortunately, I don't own any disc by Kooiman or Beekman.

Why Walcha? Well, there are several reasons.

I began to listen to seriously organ music rather recently, I would say five years ago and my epiphany came in when I was aware that this music is probably the most personal of all Bach music... Never Bach is more Bach that when he is seated at the organ and I have never listened to another organist able to convey at the same time the ethic (moral) and aesthetic power of this music at the high degree as Walcha is able to do it. Everything seems originally thought by him from the very beginning.

Quote from: Marc on January 24, 2011, 11:24:43 PM
Generalizing is never good. 0:)
Still, generally writing ;), my favourite Bach musicians weren't born in the UK.
I've listened to at least four Brittany organists in Bach (Hurford, Herrick, Preston and Bowyer), and they don't make it into my top ten.
Which doesn't mean they have nothing to offer!

I agree about Hurford, Preston and particularly Bowyer, but I think Herrick is in a different league. I wouldn't have problem to give him a place among my top tens. Anyway, I know I will be alone here.  :)
 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2011, 01:17:02 AM
Mmm, I really can't say anything about Bach being more or less Bach with this or that instrument. I just don't know.

I listen with pleasure to Christopher Herrick. He's certainly the most poetic of the four Brits. But Hurford offers a little more variation.
On a scale from 1 to 10 I'd give Herrick at least a 7 or even 7,5. Which shows that I rate all these interpreters rather high. :)
But yes, I do have my personal tastes and faves.

About Walcha: check my racing commentary: he's within the first twelve! ;)
IMO Walcha's essential; delivery and contrapunt are always clear and convincing. His recording of Die Kunst der Fuge is a must-have, IMO.
Sometimes I have difficulties with his use of registrations and dynamics, especially in fugues of the 'free' preludes et al. It gives me the feeling of disappointment: please Helmut, don't do that, keep on rockin'!
But he's definitely an 8+.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2011, 08:18:58 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 25, 2011, 11:28:33 AM
Ahh... that statement alone gives me the creeps. As does Guillou or the thought of his playing. Was he ever good as a young man to have gotten any of that (presumed) fame?

I dunno that much about Guillou. But what I heard of his Bach did not please me at all. The man whom I had the little chat with was more of the organ spectacular kind. He needed at least an instrument with 32ft pedals, he told me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 26, 2011, 10:03:54 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 26, 2011, 08:18:58 AM
He needed at least an instrument with 32ft pedals.. .

In neobaroque and continental baroque organs a full sounding 32´ register is vary rare. Most of these are buzzing 32´Fagot´s (I use to call this kind of register a motorcycle register) :)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 26, 2011, 10:13:09 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 25, 2011, 09:29:01 AM
Yes, Corti's Tamburinis are not ideal (recording sound is also not very pithy), but IMO they're much better than f.i. the Montréal Beckerath used by Lagacé. I think I even prefer them to Bowyer's rather cold Marcussen (Odense).

We are in complete agreement here.

Quote from: Marc on January 25, 2011, 09:29:01 AM
(And it's Kooiman the Second who's in the lead, a neck in front from Beekman, third is Foccroulle followed by Corti. Next in the field is Rübsam the First from Ritchie, behind them there's a packed group lead by Koopman, Vernet and Alain the Second, with Weinberger, Fagius and both Walcha's not that far away. Then comes Steinberger with Rogg the Second, and Vad and Hurford are still very close with maybe a chance to make up some ground in the next hundred yards or so. :P)
I'd like to add though that this is only a silly 'race' between completists.

IMO it isn´t but a rough guideline. And to specify more than "among top three" or "among top ten" is without sense, because very few integrals are sufficiently consistent to be ranked in that way.

BTW who is Steinberger?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2011, 10:26:36 AM
Quote from: premont on January 26, 2011, 10:03:54 AM
In neobaroque and continental baroque organs a full sounding 32´ register is vary rare. Most of these are buzzing 32´Fagot´s (I use to call this kind of register a motorcycle register) :)

Yeah, apparantly he was a romantic bloke.

Quote from: premont on January 26, 2011, 10:13:09 AM
[....]
BTW who is Steinberger?

You don't know Steinberger?

:o

He should be your 34th, then.
I meant Weinmeier, obviously. Or was it Stocksilber? Or Gambolputty jr.?
Me thinks me should check my collection again.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 26, 2011, 10:43:25 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 25, 2011, 11:44:30 PM
Never Bach is more Bach that when he is seated at the organ and I have never listened to another organist able to convey at the same time the ethic (moral) and aesthetic power of this music at the high degree as Walcha is able to do it. Everything seems originally thought by him from the very beginning.

In a way it is exactly this "everything seems originally thought by him from the very beginning", which is his greatest force and his greatest weakness. He never had much interest in informed playing (call it HIP) and his original and self constituted way of showing as well the overall structure and the counterpoint of the music leads also to many stylistic problems first and foremost concerning registration and articulation. I deliberately refrain from critisizing his agogics, because this is a rather subjective matter. But summa summarum: If I want to meet Bach the musical architect, Walcha is unsurpassed, and I find both his two integrals mandatory for true Bach lovers, but if I want to meet Bach the musician, I consult the ones which I consider my "top three". But this point illustrates as well the absurdity of chosing any top anything.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 25, 2011, 11:44:30 PM
I agree about Hurford, Preston and particularly Bowyer, but I think Herrick is in a different league. I wouldn't have problem to give him a place among my top tens. Anyway, I know I will be alone here.  :)

No you will not be alone here. I too find Herrick to be in another league than Hurford, Preston and  Bowyer. I would call his playing amiable and much of the music benefits by this kind of approach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 26, 2011, 10:48:01 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 26, 2011, 10:26:36 AM
You don't know Steinberger?

I meant Weinmeier, obviously. Or was it Stocksilber? Or Gambolputty jr.?
Me thinks me should check my collection again.

Weinberger or Stockmeier. Actually I find them both very rewarding in their very different ways. It will never stop to surprise me how different Bach´s works can be played and still make sense.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2011, 11:06:28 AM
And let's not forget this sympathetic 'contender':

http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/

Hurrah for him, too!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2011, 11:07:58 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 25, 2011, 11:00:38 AM
[....]
Here's another complete BWV 548 in E-minor. This composition is definitely one of my favourite Bach works.

Is it played in an acceptable way here?

http://www.mediafire.com/?5x944y5p9b2bc9y

Still curious what other members think about this one ....
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 26, 2011, 11:23:46 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 26, 2011, 11:06:28 AM
And let's not forget this sympathetic 'contender':

http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/

Hurrah for him, too!

His (Kibbie´s) efforts are worth much praise, but I can not say I think he adds anything individual of interest.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 26, 2011, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 26, 2011, 11:07:58 AM

Still curious what other members think about this one ....

Here's another complete BWV 548 in E-minor. This composition is definitely one of my favourite Bach works.

Is it played in an acceptable way here?

http://www.mediafire.com/?5x944y5p9b2bc9y


Downloaded this three hours ago. Will burn it to CD and give it an intense listen, but not until to morrow.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on January 26, 2011, 11:31:10 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 26, 2011, 11:07:58 AM
Still curious what other members think about this one ....

(The fugue) pretty wild, like some of Ton Koopman's playing (see my post above), but even less disciplined than I'd like.

Quote from: premont on January 26, 2011, 11:27:18 AM
Downloaded this three hours ago. Will burn it to CD and give it an intense listen, but not until to morrow.

Haven't you got a mp3 player?  I am surprised.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2011, 11:39:33 AM
Quote from: premont on January 26, 2011, 11:23:46 AM
His (Kibbie´s) efforts are worth much praise, but I can not say I think he adds anything individual of interest.

Much praise, no costs, only some downloading time .... still worth a 'hurrah'! ;D
Very nice opportunity for newbies to check out Bach's impressive organ catalogue.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: rubio on January 26, 2011, 12:37:12 PM
Quote from: premont on January 25, 2011, 12:43:44 AM
My top three also, with the exception that I am a little in doubt, whether I should rank Foccroulle or Alain II (despite her use of modern organs) as no.3. The other would then be no. 4.

But please do not call me a SPYTSLIKKER for that reason. :)

Which set is the Alain II? The cheap one on Teldec?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 26, 2011, 01:07:18 PM
Quote from: rubio on January 26, 2011, 12:37:12 PM
Which set is the Alain II? The cheap one on Teldec?

Not exactly Teldec... but yes, Erato, which is also part of Warner's re-issue activities.
Her third is also on Warner, but currently oop and on baroque organs Bach may have played on...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51m6G%2Bwt8ML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

J.S. Bach (1685 - 1750
Complete Organ Works
Marie-Clarie Alain [Second Traversal]
Erato/Warner
 (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001UUNASS/goodmusicguide-21)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 26, 2011, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: masolino on January 26, 2011, 11:31:10 AM
Haven't you got a mp3 player?  I am surprised.

No, I do not think I really need it, since I do not download that much mp3 files.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 26, 2011, 03:31:24 PM
Just arrived! Organ works w/ Koopman - 16 discs! And yes, $12 on Amazon (already up $3 more on a check tonight) - just starting in on the first disc - a long way to go; brief liner notes (but expected in this kind of offering) -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BarchOrganKoopman16/1168914034_QLvud-O.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 26, 2011, 10:34:25 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 26, 2011, 03:31:24 PM
Just arrived! Organ works w/ Koopman - 16 discs! And yes, $12 on Amazon (already up $3 more on a check tonight) - just starting in on the first disc - a long way to go; brief liner notes (but expected in this kind of offering) -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BarchOrganKoopman16/1168914034_QLvud-O.jpg)

Dave, the texts of the sung chorales, a wonderful asset to this set, can be downloaded HERE (http://www.warnerclassicsandjazz.com/sungtexts/0825646928170.pdf) (direct link to pdf-file). :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 27, 2011, 09:24:29 AM
Quote from: Que on January 26, 2011, 10:34:25 PM
Dave, the texts of the sung chorales, a wonderful asset to this set, can be downloaded HERE (http://www.warnerclassicsandjazz.com/sungtexts/0825646928170.pdf) (direct link to pdf-file). :)

Thanks Q - I've printed the pages and will also put the PDF file on my den laptop for viewing as needed - Dave  :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 27, 2011, 03:10:53 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 26, 2011, 03:31:24 PM
Just arrived! Organ works w/ Koopman - 16 discs! And yes, $12 on Amazon (already up $3 more on a check tonight) - just starting in on the first disc - a long way to go; brief liner notes (but expected in this kind of offering) -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BarchOrganKoopman16/1168914034_QLvud-O.jpg)

You will finish listening to the set ahead of me, as my set is still in the cellophane ...    ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2011, 09:46:04 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 26, 2011, 03:31:24 PM
Just arrived! Organ works w/ Koopman - 16 discs! And yes, $12 on Amazon (already up $3 more on a check tonight) - just starting in on the first disc - a long way to go; brief liner notes (but expected in this kind of offering) -  :D
[....]

Have fun! :)

One of my favourite chorale arrangement compositions for organ is BWV 686 Aus tiefer Not schrei' ich zu dir, which belongs to the Third Part of Bach's Clavier-Übung. It gives me the shivers.
Ton Koopman's performance, played on the great Silbermann organ of the Freiberger Dom, is very impressive.

And what about these three?

http://www.mediafire.com/?6r512bpcj273492

http://www.mediafire.com/?2w82izcaw652vkn

http://www.mediafire.com/?2186wu184euuo02
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 29, 2011, 12:26:18 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 25, 2011, 11:00:38 AM

Here's another complete BWV 548 in E-minor. This composition is definitely one of my favourite Bach works.

http://www.mediafire.com/?5x944y5p9b2bc9y

I have heard at least 75 different interpretations of this work (CDs, LPs, broadcasts, organ recitals), but I do not recognize the style of this organist.

To begin with the organ.It sounds like a great North German baroque organ with its rather sharp mixtures and strong pedal reeds. The sound quality of the recording is not first rate so it is difficult to "get" the individuality of the  organ. It might well be the Schnitger/Hinsz organ of St. Martini / Groningen, which is tuned about  the pitch of the mystery recording (a1 = ca 466). Another possibility is the Müller organ in Jacobijnerkerk. Leeuwarden (pitch a1 = 460) but this is tuned in equal temperament, something I do not think the mystery organ is. And there are several other possibilities (not the Harlem, Zwolle or Alkmaar though - nor does the sound remind me of the St.Jacobi/Hamburg organ)

I think the mystery recording reflects the spirit of a so called live recording, a one time venue. This is stressed by the fact that the organist sometimes looses the "microcontrol" of the fingers, and the odd executing  of the thematic trill of the fugue subject at its first presentation would probably have been corrected in another take.

The playing is generally HIP influenced, but I do not think the organist belongs to the latest generation of organists. His way of distributing the "tutti" and "solo" episodes to the HW and RP respectively combined with his very detached articulation of the fugue subject (the wedge proper) points IMO to an organist born before 1950. The interpretation is tense and sometimes hectic, becoming rather extatic in the run of the fugue. I suppose the organist is Dutch, but he/she might as well be German. I have no idea of the name. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2011, 01:23:09 PM
Premont, thanks for this review!
I didn't expect anyone to guess it right, although one or two Dutchies around here might know or remember his name.

I've 'mentioned' this disc twice before on this board:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg369395.html#msg369395

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg470431.html#msg470431

(http://i51.tinypic.com/2rnu53k.jpg)

The organist is Dutch indeed: Klaas Jan Mulder (1930-2008), son of a vicar. His first love was the piano, and he wanted to become a concert pianist, but then he also had to perform on Sundays, which was kinda problematic.
So eventually he became an organist.

He was very popular among protestant people, especially loved for his improvisations on psalms and chorales. He was broadcasted many times by the Dutch Evangelical broadcoasting corporation (EO).
He wasn't part of the HIP-school, in fact, in some interviews he stated that HIP was nonsense. He did not play Bach nor baroque often in concert, either.

He did play BWV 565 and other organ classics with Ton Scherpenzeel, member of the symfonic rock band Kayak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayak_(band)
Mulder and Scherpenzeel arranged popular classical tunes for synthesizer, organ and percussion. The name of this band was KAJEM.

So, yes: he's Dutch, he was born before 1950, not really HIP, but maybe more HIP-influenced than he realized himself ;).
I don't think it's a live performance, because the entire disc is totally 'cough-free'. In Bach, this was probably the best Mulder had to offer.

Your description of the intrument is very accurate IMHO, but I have to say: it is the Zwolle Schnitger organ, sorry 'bout that. Even though the recording might not be first rate, I think there have been more problematic recordings of this instrument, f.i. with Michel Chapuis and Charles de Wolff.

I myself do not consider this Bach playing extremely good. I think it's too stiff and mechanical in its phrasing and articulating. Nevertheless, thanks to its intensity, it's quite a rousing performance.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lethevich on January 29, 2011, 01:35:36 PM
Premont, I am in awe of your analytical skill in this field, and your post was a joy to read.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2011, 01:38:08 PM
Quote from: Lethe on January 29, 2011, 01:35:36 PM
Premont, I am in awe of your analytical skill in this field, and your post was a joy to read.

Ditto! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2011, 02:56:16 PM
Quote from: premont on January 29, 2011, 12:26:18 PM
[....]
To begin with the organ.It sounds like a great North German baroque organ with its rather sharp mixtures and strong pedal reeds. The sound quality of the recording is not first rate so it is difficult to "get" the individuality of the  organ. It might well be the Schnitger/Hinsz organ of St. Martini / Groningen, which is tuned about  the pitch of the mystery recording (a1 = ca 466). Another possibility is the Müller organ in Jacobijnerkerk. Leeuwarden (pitch a1 = 460) but this is tuned in equal temperament, something I do not think the mystery organ is. And there are several other possibilities (not the Harlem, Zwolle or Alkmaar though - nor does the sound remind me of the St.Jacobi/Hamburg organ)
[....]

Just listened to Michael Murray's performance of BWV 735 Valet will ich dir geben, also on the Schnitger organ in Zwolle. Indeed a more characterized recording of this instrument. The Mulder recording sounds much darker, which makes it even more difficult to guess.

Here's some info about this famous organ, which is very highly tuned (a' = 502 Hz):

http://ftp.wu-wien.ac.at/pub/earlym-l/organs/schnitger.st-michaelskerk.zwolle.-.nl.1721
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 29, 2011, 03:30:19 PM
Thanks for your kind words, Marc, Lethe and Sonic Man (in another thread) :)

My reason for excluding the Zwolle organ was not the sound of the mystery organ as such, but the fact that the pitch of this organ is one tone higher than a1 = 440. It was restored to that state in1955.  Actually I thought of the possibility of the Zwolle organ, but a comparison with the Charles de Wolff recording told me that the pitch of his recording was almost a halftone higher than that of the mystery organ.

Marc, do you know the year of the Mulder recording?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2011, 03:36:51 PM
Quote from: premont on January 29, 2011, 03:30:19 PM
Thanks for your kind words, Marc, Lethe and Sonic Man (in another thread) :)

My reason for excluding the Zwolle organ was not the sound of the mystery organ as such, but the fact that the pitch of this organ is one tone higher than a1 = 440. It was restored to that state in1955.  Actually I thought of the possibility of the Zwolle organ, but a comparison with the Charles de Wolff recording told me that the pitch of his recording was almost a halftone higher than that of the mystery organ.

Marc, do you know the year of the Mulder recording?

Strange.
It was recorded in 2001, and launched in 2002.
Flentrop restored the high pitch in 1955. There were some smaller revisions of the instrument in 1999 and in 2008, both by Flentrop again, but AFAIK the high pitch remained unaltered.

???
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2011, 03:46:27 PM
Just checked the first bars of BWV 548 with Michael Murray on the Zwolle organ: same pitch as Mulder.
So: could the problem be De Wolff's recording?
Or: maybe not the recording, but the remastering?

EDIT:
just checked the first bars of Charles de Wolff, too.
Premont, to my ears it's the same pitch again .... who of us should check the ear specialist? :-\
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 29, 2011, 04:13:25 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 29, 2011, 03:46:27 PM
Just checked the first bars of BWV 548 with Michael Murray on the Zwolle organ: same pitch as Mulder.
So: could the problem be De Wolff's recording?
Or: maybe not the recording, but the remastering?

EDIT:
just checked the first bars of Charles de Wolff, too.
Premont, to my ears it's the same pitch again .... who of us should check the ear specialist? :-\

Well I have not got perfect pitch, but I use my garklein to establish the pitch. In my ears the Mulder sounds in f-minor and the Wolff (the 548) in f sharp minor. I shall repeat the operation to morrow, can not do it  now for the neighbours.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 29, 2011, 04:15:28 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 29, 2011, 03:36:51 PM
Strange.
It was recorded in 2001, and launched in 2002.
Flentrop restored the high pitch in 1955. There were some smaller revisions of the instrument in 1999 and in 2008, both by Flentrop again, but AFAIK the high pitch remained unaltered.

???

So since 1955 the e-minor should sound in f sharp minor.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2011, 04:17:56 PM
Quote from: premont on January 29, 2011, 04:13:25 PM
Well I have not got perfect pitch, but I use my garklein to establish the pitch. In my ears the Mulder sounds in f-minor and the Wolff (the 548) in f sharp minor. I shall repeat the operation to morrow, can not do it  now for the neighbours.

Understood.
It's time for bed anyhow. ;)

This is the 'amateur' way I checked it: listened to the first bars of De Wolff (using headphones), kept on humming them (that's how I remembered my notes when I sang in choirs, too :)), and then listened to Mulder: even though the sound was deeper, my humming perfectly 'fitted'.
To be certain, I checked it several times this way, including the Murray beginning.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2011, 04:26:36 PM
BTW: how dull Murray's performance is. Dull, dull, dull .... and slow and sloppy.
His Zwolle disc delivers good chorales, an acceptable BWV 534 in F-minor (or is it? ;)), but the great works BWV 532, 540 and 548: dull, dull, dull.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 29, 2011, 04:36:34 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 29, 2011, 04:26:36 PM
BTW: how dull Murray's performance is. Dull, dull, dull .... and slow and sloppy.
His Zwolle disc delivers good chorales, an acceptable BWV 534 in F-minor (or is it? ;)), but the great works BWV 532, 540 and 548: dull, dull, dull.

Can not contradict this. I never listen to him anymore.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 29, 2011, 09:14:42 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 29, 2011, 04:26:36 PM
BTW: how dull Murray's performance is. Dull, dull, dull .... and slow and sloppy.
His Zwolle disc delivers good chorales, an acceptable BWV 534 in F-minor (or is it? ;)), but the great works BWV 532, 540 and 548: dull, dull, dull.

I agree completely.  Leaving aside the chorales, Murray's slow, solemn and heavy interpretations are unappealing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 30, 2011, 08:12:17 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 29, 2011, 04:17:56 PM
This is the 'amateur' way I checked it: listened to the first bars of De Wolff (using headphones), kept on humming them (that's how I remembered my notes when I sang in choirs, too :)), and then listened to Mulder: even though the sound was deeper, my humming perfectly 'fitted'.
To be certain, I checked it several times this way, including the Murray beginning.

Now I have listened to three different recordings on the Zwolle organ of Prel.&Fugue e-minor BWV 548 (Mulder, De Wolff and Chapuis), and you are right, they all sound in f sharp minor. I do not know how I got the Mulder in f-minor, making me exclude the Zwolle organ by mistake.

But now a little puzzle for you. Præl.&Fugue c-minor BWV 546. Who plays - and where?
First link mp3, second link wav (considerably better sound).

http://www.mediafire.com/?5hynn83z7m4d0m2

http://www.mediafire.com/?2m6g1e1gp8jyt3w
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2011, 12:24:07 PM
Quote from: premont on January 30, 2011, 08:12:17 AM
Now I have listened to three different recordings on the Zwolle organ of Prel.&Fugue e-minor BWV 548 (Mulder, De Wolff and Chapuis), and you are right, they all sound in f sharp minor. I do not know how I got the Mulder in f-minor, making me exclude the Zwolle organ by mistake.

But now a little puzzle for you. Præl.&Fugue c-minor BWV 546. Who plays - and where?
First link mp3, second link wav (considerably better sound).

http://www.mediafire.com/?5hynn83z7m4d0m2

http://www.mediafire.com/?2m6g1e1gp8jyt3w

As I begin writing this, I'm listening to the mp3 and the prelude is still going on, just at the sort of 'da capo' point. I must say: acoustics a bit too spatial maybe, but this is a very impressive and almost titanic performance of this great piece and in such a case the cathedral recording sound is adding something extra to the atmosphere.
It reminds me of the Van Doeselaar-disc of that cheap Brilliant boxset Famous Dutch organs, playing the Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkmaar. :-\

Now the fugue has started and the organist remains playing organo pleno, which I like very much in pieces like this. So the organist is probably not someone of the 'older' generation. Whomever he/she is, I'm most surely enjoying it! .... It could be M-C Alain, too. She's also famous for her indefatigable approach in Bach's non-liturgic works. I dunno about her 3rd integral, maybe this one is part of it?

Now the mid-section of the fugue has started, probably the 'weakest' part of the composition, and again there is no hesitation or drawback at all: yummie!

Ah, the final bars are coming, but no real ritenuto, no romantic efforts to make them even more impressive .... again I have to say, I like this interpretation very much! I most definitely want to listen to this one again. So now I'm starting the wave-version: downloading has just finished. :)

Indeed this a better sound, less hollow, and the sound of the organ is more full-flavoured. I'm enjoying it tremendously, again.

As I mentioned, at first it reminded me of Van Doeselaar playing a titanic Bach in the Laurenskerk of Alkmaar .... but in most cases Van Doeselaar uses more vivid phrasing, and BWV 546 isn't part of that Brilliant disc, if I remember well. OTOH, even though Van Doeselaar is definitely HIP-influenced, he also plays a lot of 19th and 20th century music, so he never plays baroque like a nervous far too frisky jump-along.
If it's really Leo van D., I'm even more sorry I missed his concert last year in the Martini; well, life is hard and then you die.

I think the piece is played a bit too slow for other renowned organists like Beekman, Kooiman, Van Oortmerssen, Corti or Ritchie. And the recording is a bit too spatial to make someone like Knud Vad possible. His integral isn't that spatial (if I remember correctly) and he plays even more legato and less vivid.

Piet Kee could also be a possibility. Or one of his pupils, like Cor Ardesch. I know you have one disc by Ardesch, but that's one with a.o. BWV 545, and with a darker sounding organ.
All in all, I think you did us a great pleasure  :-* by uploading a performance by a well-informed Dutch organist (maybe German or Scandinavian, maybe even of the MC Alain-school or the Italian 'Andrea Marcon' way of playing), who likes his/her Bach to be played with tremendous power, telling us a story aus einem Guß with tempi not too fast.

Even though it could well be a very good neo-baroque organ, my guess is that it's a historic organ, very well restored, in a rather large church or cathedral. It's very difficult to guess if it's a Schnitger (school) or a Silbermann (school), although the principal stops sound prominent (especially audible in the wave-version) which would make a Schnitger more possible.

I'm really hesitating about this all .... but one should stay at one's first thought, so I guess it's either Van Doeselaar or Piet Kee, because I remember some very titanic performances of Bach's free works by them. The organ would then be Haarlem or Alkmaar, both North-German organs in large churches .... but you're probably fooling us with some ukendte Danske musiker. :P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2011, 12:44:19 PM
Listening to this performance again, even though I should be in bed right now .... but it doesn't bore me at all. It's a BWV 546 like I want it to be played.
Also I'm aware of more vivid articularing now in the fugue, whilst the prelude has got some more legato moments. No haste at all during this fugue, it's wonderfully played!

Also just checked fast and furiously my collection .... even though that's impossible because of the mess. :P
I found one recording by Piet Kee, which is just a tad faster (Chandos, now Brilliant: Kee playing Bach & Buxtehude in Alkmaar). But I only found three discs of Van Doeselaar: the above-mentioned disc in Alkmaar, a disc recorded in Leens (a beautiful rendering, played on the Hinsz organ) and a more recent one in Kampen with Fantasias (both liturgic and free), but no BWV 546.
I'm beginning to doubt .... should have waited a day. Big Mouth stroke again, I guess. :-[

EDIT: pitch of Kee is the same as the organ of Premont's 'mystery recording', which means it could well be the Van Hagerbeer/Schnitger organ of the Laurenskerk, Alkmaar, NL. Sound of the organ is almost the same, though the Chandos recording (Kee) is more prominent.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2011, 01:18:48 PM
Hope I will be fit tomorrow, have to catch the early train. :-\
The similarity between Premont's file and the Kee recording is striking, during the first bars I would almost say they're the same. But the unknown organist is playing the piece in a less 'angular' way than Kee does. BTW: I do like Kee's recording very much, too, and I'm uploading it right now .... with this result:

http://www.mediafire.com/?b7rdm38q2230s84

Just to have fun and compare, and to check if these organs really are the same. I say: they are.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 30, 2011, 01:26:33 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 30, 2011, 12:24:07 PM

It reminds me of the Van Doeselaar-disc of that cheap Brilliant boxset Famous Dutch organs, playing the Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkmaar. :-\

As I mentioned, at first it reminded me of Van Doeselaar playing a titanic Bach in the Laurenskerk of Alkmaar ....

I think the piece is played a bit too slow for other renowned organists like Beekman, Kooiman, Van Oortmerssen, Corti or Ritchie.

I am very impressed, that your first association is the right one. Bravo, it is indeed van Doeselaar in Alkmaar.

Quote from: Marc on January 30, 2011, 12:24:07 PM
Piet Kee could also be a possibility

Yes certainly, in one of his better moments.

Quote from: Marc on January 30, 2011, 12:24:07 PM
Even though it could well be a very good neo-baroque organ, my guess is that it's a historic organ, very well restored, in a rather large church or cathedral. It's very difficult to guess if it's a Schnitger (school) or a Silbermann (school), although the principal stops sound prominent (especially audible in the wave-version) which would make a Schnitger more possible.

One of the Alkmaar organ´s specific traits is the prominent principals as you describe it - and the low sounding Sesquialteras (which Walcha uses ather much).

I chose this recording because I am deeply impressed by it as am  by all van Doeselaar´s Bach. On the same CD are some Chorale preludes by Bach (BWV 600, 655, 709 and 721) from a collection Het Historische Orgel in Nederland vol.5.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2011, 01:43:40 PM
After I 'discovered' the Kee disc in my collection and listened to it, I was pretty sure it was the organ of Alkmaar.
And whilst listening to your upload the first time, the word titanic came to mind rather quickly. And then I remembered your description, once upon a long ago, of Van Doeselaar's playing of that first disc of the Brilliant Classics set, which you called titanic. Dunno if it was in this thread, though, or in a PM, or at some other forum. But that's basically how Van Doeselaar's name 'bursted' into my head.
So, Premont, in a way, I own this little success ;) to you.

But in the end it's really a wild guessing game with those names. And this time I was lucky.
What I truly enjoyed doing was listening behind my PC, with headphones, and writing my first associations and then listen again and again, and eventually trying to draw some conclusion. I'm not very good in hearing and describing all those registers and different manuals, but after two years of repeated organ listening some of the 'organ secrets' are less 'secret' to me. I'm happy that I rediscovered one of my beloved instruments of my youth. I realize it sounds a bit sentimental, but there it is. And I'm also happy that a certain mister J.S. Bach once lived and composed .... no real surprise there I suppose. ;D

Add this: is this disc part of that huge multiple boxset including a book about Dutch organ history? Because I have that one, too. Bought it two years ago for about € 50,-- or something (last issue in that particular shop, slightly damaged book). I should search for that one again, because I only listened to one or two discs, mainly with organs from the province of Groningen. Maybe I should quit buying all those organ discs and start to really listen to them! ;D
But not today, because it's really time for bed!

This is Member Marcus sayin' good night to yez all, and God bless yez. 0:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 30, 2011, 01:48:21 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 30, 2011, 01:18:48 PM

The similarity between Premont's file and the Kee recording is striking, during the first bars I would almost say they're the same..

.. to check if these organs really are the same. I say: they are.

My ear tells me, that there is a very small difference in the pitch of these two recordings, probably less than 5 Hz (judged from a1), but this is not more than what may happen because of differences in room temperature.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2011, 01:55:57 PM
Quote from: premont on January 30, 2011, 01:48:21 PM
My ear tells me, that there is a very small difference in the pitch of these two recordings, probably less than 5 Hz (judged from a1), but this is not more than what may happen because of differences in room temperature.

Dear me, I must admit I cannot hear that!
Never mind, it's a beautiful instrument anyway.

Here's a nice pic .... yummy:

(http://i54.tinypic.com/2w5500x.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 30, 2011, 02:01:04 PM
I think you showed a fine aural memory both concerning the organ sound as such and the impact of the interpretation.

I am not sure if it is the same organ box as yours. Mine (12 CDs) is released by het Nationaal Institut voor de Orgelkunst.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 01, 2011, 11:07:03 AM
Quote from: premont on January 30, 2011, 02:01:04 PM
I think you showed a fine aural memory both concerning the organ sound as such and the impact of the interpretation.

I am not sure if it is the same organ box as yours. Mine (12 CDs) is released by het Nationaal Institut voor de Orgelkunst.

Found it.
It's a different box: 20 cd's, Orgels in Nederland, compilated by Okke Dijkhuizen. Van Doeselaar's BWV 546 is also part of it, though! (Lucky me.)
Probably there are some 'overlaps' with your set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 01, 2011, 02:56:50 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 01, 2011, 11:07:03 AM
Found it.
It's a different box: 20 cd's, Orgels in Nederland, compilated by Okke Dijkhuizen. Van Doeselaar's BWV 546 is also part of it, though! (Lucky me.)
Probably there are some 'overlaps' with your set.

I own that box too. Yes, there are some overlaps, but not that many.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 03, 2011, 07:55:32 AM
Anyone heard this one? What's it like?


[asin]B000EB7T4A[/asin]
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 04, 2011, 02:38:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 03, 2011, 07:55:32 AM
Anyone heard this one? What's it like?
[Paul Jacobs plays Bach]

I once saw and listened to a clip with Jacobs playing the Sinfonia of Cantata BWV 29 on a XXL mega organ, which I did not appreciate that much.
But that's all.
I've ordered this particular disc at the library and in about two weeks I might have an opinion about it. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 04, 2011, 11:35:13 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 04, 2011, 02:38:49 AM
I once saw and listened to a clip with Jacobs playing the Sinfonia of Cantata BWV 29 on a XXL mega organ, which I did not appreciate that much.
But that's all.
I've ordered this particular disc at the library and in about two weeks I might have an opinion about it. ;)

Thanks --  if you can post your response I'd appreciate it. Even if it's just a word or two.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 06, 2011, 02:42:40 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 29, 2011, 09:46:04 AM
One of my favourite chorale arrangement compositions for organ is BWV 686 Aus tiefer Not schrei' ich zu dir, which belongs to the Third Part of Bach's Clavier-Übung. It gives me the shivers.
Ton Koopman's performance, played on the great Silbermann organ of the Freiberger Dom, is very impressive.

And what about these three?

http://www.mediafire.com/?6r512bpcj273492

http://www.mediafire.com/?2w82izcaw652vkn

http://www.mediafire.com/?2186wu184euuo02

My own opinions on these: one I very very much dislike, one I do like quite a lot, and one I feel have mixed feelings about, but is nevertheless dragging me into it entirely.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 06, 2011, 03:08:18 AM
I uploaded Van Doeselaar's performance of BWV 546 again, ripped from the original large wave-file into a 320 kbps mp3-file. This one sounds better than the small mp3 that Premont uploaded before, but still doesn't take much time to download.

I hope Premont doesn't mind. :-\

So, lad mig charme ham ved at tænke ham for at uploade det alligevel! ;D

http://www.mediafire.com/?ixxzmehi4g40syf
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 06, 2011, 03:27:44 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 06, 2011, 03:08:18 AM
I uploaded Van Doeselaar's performance of BWV 546 again, ripped from the original large wave-file into a 320 kbps mp3-file. This one sounds better than the small mp3 that Premont uploaded before, but still doesn't take much time to download.

I hope Premont doesn't mind. :-\
Of course I do not mind. :)

Quote from: Marc on February 06, 2011, 03:08:18 AM
So, lad mig charme ham ved at tænke ham for at uploade det alligevel! ;D

Det var vist en værre gang Google-dansk, i alt fald er det lettere uforståeligt også for mig. ;)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 06, 2011, 07:01:52 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 29, 2011, 09:46:04 AM

...BWV 686 Aus tiefer Not schrei' ich zu dir, which belongs to the Third Part of Bach's Clavier-Übung...

And what about these three?

http://www.mediafire.com/?6r512bpcj273492

http://www.mediafire.com/?2w82izcaw652vkn

http://www.mediafire.com/?2186wu184euuo02

I am working upon these. My first ideas proved wrong.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 06, 2011, 07:59:57 AM
Quote from: premont on February 06, 2011, 07:01:52 AM
I am working upon these. My first ideas proved wrong.

Personally, I don't care if one mentions a name or not. Sure, it's a fun game, but I'm more interested what other people's opinions are about the performances.

But in this case, I'll wait with unfolding the mysteries. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 06, 2011, 02:59:03 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 06, 2011, 07:59:57 AM
Personally, I don't care if one mentions a name or not. Sure, it's a fun game, but I'm more interested what other people's opinions are about the performances.

But in this case, I'll wait with unfolding the mysteries. ;)

My taste is probably not that different from yours.

No. one is IMO an example of an organist  trying to apply strict and dubious rules upon the music.  His articulation is absurdly short, and this makes the phrasing fall apart. The tempo is well chosen, but played in this way the piece appears distressingly breathless.  I do not like this kind of playing, which I feel lacks the stature and dignity, which this piece demands. The organ sounds like a historical North German instrument, of the Martini/Groningen variety. I do not know many organists playing in that way. Weinberger and Koopman share a tendency to rather short articulation but not at all to that degree. Chorzempa had a period about 1980 where he experimented with articulation on recordings and played on historical( often Dutch) organs,  but the recording in question is probably not that old. I think it displays the stylistic immaturity of a young or misguided musician.  He might even well be from the overseas.

No.two, on the other hand, is surely the interpretation of an old and mature musician. I have never heard this piece played so slow before (lasts more than 8 minutes), but played in this deliberate way and with relative legato the piece acquires an almost  titanic stature, and the time is well filled out.  This is very much to my taste. This is a large  organ, and considering  the fact  that the piece is an "organo pleno"- piece the sound of this organ  is a little milder and darker than I would expect from a Schnitger-type instrument, so I have considered other possibilities like the Treutmann organ / Kloster Grauhof or the Trost organ / Waltershausen.  I do not think possible candidates as to this kind of interpretation  like Piet Wiersma and van Doeselaar would play so excessively slow, and Gustav Leonhardt would probably play a little more detached.

No. three is a recording with great integrity and weight about the playing. Surely also a mature musician. But much depends upon the choice of organ, and with this organ the organo pleno sounds overloaded first and foremost because of "fat" reed sound. Add to this rather characterless principals and you have a post-Victorian English organ.  For some reason even some newer neo-baroque English organs suffer from this "fat" sound. So I think this is Peter Hurford (or his deputee).  It is not my preferred kind of interpretation,  but still listenable.

I may have got the order wrong, but there can be no doubt about which recordings I comment.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2011, 02:11:25 AM
Quote from: premont on February 06, 2011, 02:59:03 PM
My taste is probably not that different from yours.

No, but maybe there are other members who would like to have a go?

Quote from: premont
No. one is IMO an example of an organist  trying to apply strict and dubious rules upon the music.  His articulation is absurdly short, and this makes the phrasing fall apart. The tempo is well chosen, but played in this way the piece appears distressingly breathless.  I do not like this kind of playing, which I feel lacks the stature and dignity, which this piece demands. The organ sounds like a historical North German instrument, of the Martini/Groningen variety. I do not know many organists playing in that way. Weinberger and Koopman share a tendency to rather short articulation but not at all to that degree. Chorzempa had a period about 1980 where he experimented with articulation on recordings and played on historical( often Dutch) organs,  but the recording in question is probably not that old. I think it displays the stylistic immaturity of a young or misguided musician.  He might even well be from the overseas.

No.two, on the other hand, is surely the interpretation of an old and mature musician. I have never heard this piece played so slow before (lasts more than 8 minutes), but played in this deliberate way and with relative legato the piece acquires an almost  titanic stature, and the time is well filled out.  This is very much to my taste. This is a large  organ, and considering  the fact  that the piece is an "organo pleno"- piece the sound of this organ  is a little milder and darker than I would expect from a Schnitger-type instrument, so I have considered other possibilities like the Treutmann organ / Kloster Grauhof or the Trost organ / Waltershausen.  I do not think possible candidates as to this kind of interpretation  like Piet Wiersma and van Doeselaar would play so excessively slow, and Gustav Leonhardt would probably play a little more detached.

No. three is a recording with great integrity and weight about the playing. Surely also a mature musician. But much depends upon the choice of organ, and with this organ the organo pleno sounds overloaded first and foremost because of "fat" reed sound. Add to this rather characterless principals and you have a post-Victorian English organ.  For some reason even some newer neo-baroque English organs suffer from this "fat" sound. So I think this is Peter Hurford (or his deputee).  It is not my preferred kind of interpretation,  but still listenable.

I may have got the order wrong, but there can be no doubt about which recordings I comment.

Have to do this from memory. Internet problems at da house.

Short reaction from the office:

The first mentioned is by Japanese Kei Koito. I absolutely do not like this kind of uneven hip-hop playing, especially not in a piece like this. If I remember well, she plays the Hinsz organ of the Bovenkerk in Kampen, NL.
The second mentioned is Cor van Wageningen, playing the Martini organ in Groningen. Even though I think it's played too much legato to my taste, I'm really dragged into this one. Slow tempo is OK in this piece. I only wish that the pedal chorale melody was more prominent sounding.
The last one is Werner Jacob, playing the Silbermann organ of the Freiberger Dom (Is that correct?). I think my opinion about this performance is more positive than yours, although one could indeed argue that it's kind of a middle-of-the-road interpretation.
I understand the reasons though why you picked Hurford, for his sometimes 'fat' sounding recordings.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 07, 2011, 12:19:03 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 07, 2011, 02:11:25 AM
No, but maybe there are other members who would like to have a go?

My thoughts too.


Quote from: Marc on February 07, 2011, 02:11:25 AM
The first mentioned is by Japanese Kei Koito. I absolutely do not like this kind of uneven hip-hop playing, especially not in a piece like this. If I remember well, she plays the Hinsz organ of the Bovenkerk in Kampen, NL.
The second mentioned is Cor van Wageningen, playing the Martini organ in Groningen. Even though I think it's played too much legato to my taste, I'm really dragged into this one. Slow tempo is OK in this piece. I only wish that the pedal chorale melody was more prominent sounding.
The last one is Werner Jacob, playing the Silbermann organ of the Freiberger Dom (Is that correct?). I think my opinion about this performance is more positive than yours, although one could indeed argue that it's kind of a middle-of-the-road interpretation.
I understand the reasons though why you picked Hurford, for his sometimes 'fat' sounding recordings.

Half a year ago I acquired Kei Koito´s Bach vol.1 (Claves) BTW recorded on the Martini / Groningen organ. I found her playing musically undistinguished (but not irritating like her BWV 686), and did not find any reason to collect her upcoming integral, since I am not a blind completist, only half-blind. As you may figure out, the best about the recording is the organ.

Cor van Wageningen is totally unknown to me (certainly my loss). Too much legato maybe, but never-the-less a marvellous consistent and expressive interpretation. Individual without being idiosyncratic.

Concerning the third item: The G. Silbermann organ in Freiberger Dom has never been among my favorites. I do not like this pompous and fat sound which muddles the musical texture. The Silbermann in question made so many really beautiful sounding smaller organs, much more suited for displaying the polyphonic texture of Bach´s music (e.g. Fraureuth, Crostau and Reinhardtsgrimma) as the Berlin Classic´s set "Bach on Silbermann organs" documents in such a beautiful way. Tradition says, that Bach admired the Freiberg organ, and his participation in the construction of the great and pompous Hildebrand organ in Naumburg points to the posibillity, that he favoured or at least liked a sound like that, so the recording of the Clavierübung III on the Freiberg organ (something many others than Jacob have done) must probably be considerd authentic. BTW I was rather sure about Herford and did not do any "control-listening". Some of the similarity between Jacob and Hurford seems to me to be that their interpretations are conservative (rather strict pace, relative legato playing and "colourful" registrations) not surprising considering their age.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 09, 2011, 09:46:14 AM
Quote from: premont on February 07, 2011, 12:19:03 PM
Half a year ago I acquired Kei Koito´s Bach vol.1 (Claves) BTW recorded on the Martini / Groningen organ. I found her playing musically undistinguished (but not irritating like her BWV 686), and did not find any reason to collect her upcoming integral, since I am not a blind completist, only half-blind. As you may figure out, the best about the recording is the organ.

Bought that Volume One last summer, but, as you said, there will be no purchase of volumes two et al. ;D

Quote from: premontCor van Wageningen is totally unknown to me (certainly my loss).

There are almost too many Dutch organists. :D

(And historic organs, too!)

Quote from: premontToo much legato maybe, but never-the-less a marvellous consistent and expressive interpretation. Individual without being idiosyncratic.

Yep.

Quote from: premontConcerning the third item: The G. Silbermann organ in Freiberger Dom has never been among my favorites. I do not like this pompous and fat sound which muddles the musical texture. The Silbermann in question made so many really beautiful sounding smaller organs, much more suited for displaying the polyphonic texture of Bach´s music (e.g. Fraureuth, Crostau and Reinhardtsgrimma) as the Berlin Classic´s set "Bach on Silbermann organs" documents in such a beautiful way. Tradition says, that Bach admired the Freiberg organ, and his participation in the construction of the great and pompous Hildebrand organ in Naumburg points to the posibillity, that he favoured or at least liked a sound like that, so the recording of the Clavierübung III on the Freiberg organ (something many others than Jacob have done) must probably be considerd authentic. BTW I was rather sure about Herford and did not do any "control-listening". Some of the similarity between Jacob and Hurford seems to me to be that their interpretations are conservative (rather strict pace, relative legato playing and "colourful" registrations) not surprising considering their age.

Maybe the Silbermann in Freiberg's Sankt Petri is more to your likings?

Talking about the various organs is uncertain territory for me, but in Bach I think I prefer the brighter sound of the Schnitger school to the more 'granular' sound of the Silbermanns. But there are so many differences between all those instruments, it's really difficult to give an opinion about this.
I would like to add though that I also like the Joachim Wagner instruments that I've heard so far, particularly the organ in the Trondheim Cathedral and the one in the Brandenburger Dom.

On the latter, Edgar Krapp plays a fine BWV 686:

(http://i53.tinypic.com/28iceme.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Clavier-Ubung-Praludium-Grosse-Choralbearbeitungen/dp/B000006LIZ/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1297277079&sr=1-6
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 09, 2011, 10:26:52 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 09, 2011, 09:46:14 AM
There are almost too many Dutch organists. :D
(And historic organs, too!)

Oh no, the more the better. :)

Quote from: Marc on February 09, 2011, 09:46:14 AM
Maybe the Silbermann in Freiberg's Sankt Petri is more to your likings?

Yes, much more.

Quote from: Marc on February 09, 2011, 09:46:14 AM
Talking about the various organs is uncertain territory for me, but in Bach I think I prefer the brighter sound of the Schnitger school to the more 'granular' sound of the Silbermanns. But there are so many differences between all those instruments, it's really difficult to give an opinion about this.

The typical Arp Schnitger school organs are more suited to stylus phantasticus music (e.g. Buxtehude and Early Bach) when sonic brilliance is neded. For the more contemplative late Bach organ works (first and foremost the Choral settings) I think the darker sound of the organs of the G Silberman school works best.

Quote from: Marc on February 09, 2011, 09:46:14 AM
I would like to add though that I also like the Joachim Wagner instruments that I've heard so far, particularly the organ in the Trondheim Cathedral and the one in the Brandenburger Dom.

Yes, and I would say that these belong the darker type, best suited for the late works (Bryndorf Leipzigchorales, Preston Clavierübung III et.c.)

Quote from: Marc on February 09, 2011, 09:46:14 AM
On the latter, Edgar Krapp plays a fine BWV 686:

(http://i53.tinypic.com/28iceme.jpg)

One of my recommendations in the first post of this very thread. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 09, 2011, 10:44:49 AM
You're probably right about the similarities between the Silbermanns and the Wagners. And, come to think of it again, maybe I should have written that I preferred the Schnitgers in the free works, but appreciated the Silbermanns in the chorales very much.

In BWV 686, the rather 'hoarse' sound of the principals makes the piece even more moving: schrei zu dir.

Btw, I ordered the 'Little Organ Mass' by Krapp this week, played on another Wagner organ: the Marienkirche in Treuenbrietzen. Should be a good one, too.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 09, 2011, 01:35:46 PM
Quote from: Marc
You're probably right about the similarities between the Silbermanns and the Wagners.

Only a relative similarity compared to Schnitger´s.

Quote from: Marc

In BWV 686, the rather 'hoarse' sound of the principals makes the piece even more moving: schrei zu dir.

I have to listen to this again very soon.

Quote from: Marc
Btw, I ordered the 'Little Organ Mass' by Krapp this week, played on another Wagner organ: the Marienkirche in Treuenbrietzen. Should be a good one, too.

IMO equally good as the Brandenburg organ CD. A pity that Krapp has not recorded more Bach. Maybe his name is a liability.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 09, 2011, 08:49:39 PM
Quote from: premont on February 09, 2011, 01:35:46 PM
[....] A pity that Krapp has not recorded more Bach. Maybe his name is a liability.

Tight Edgar?
Narrow Edgar?

???

Oh, now I see: limited Edgar!

But he did do some small Bach stuff on Eurodisc, too.
With a trumpet ensemble from Munich, and also one or two discs in the Dom zu Passau, with compositions of Bach, Franck, Reger et al.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 10, 2011, 09:04:39 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 09, 2011, 08:49:39 PM
Oh, now I see: limited Edgar!

No, much worse than that, and please do not tell anyone. Edgar Crap. :P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 10, 2011, 08:42:41 PM
Quote from: premont on February 10, 2011, 09:04:39 AM
No, much worse than that, and please do not tell anyone. Edgar Crap. :P

Pfui dich!

Btw: the Dutch word 'krap' means 'tight' or 'narrow', which explains my blabbering. Anyway, I'm in hopeful expactation of some more 'crap'. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on February 10, 2011, 09:00:03 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 10, 2011, 08:42:41 PM
Pfui dich!

Btw: the Dutch word 'krap' means 'tight' or 'narrow', which explains my blabbering. Anyway, I'm in hopeful expactation of some more 'crap'. :)

I wonder what Bach's attitudes toward unintended humour were like?  Perhaps laughing at someone's 'krapp' was more of a Handel thing.   ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 14, 2011, 07:52:37 AM
Posted a Bach organ contribution to the thread The most intense ending in a piece of music, with an upload of my fave performance (so far) of another favourite composition:

Sometimes, when a piece is intense from start to finish, it needs a skilled musician to make that finish just a tad more intense ....

http://www.mediafire.com/?80e31cmd83noj2a

J.S. Bach, Choralbearbeitung Jesus Christus, unser Heiland BWV 665.
Organist: Bram Beekman.
Instrument: Schnitger/Timpe organ, Der Aa Kerk, Groningen, NL.

After being in a whirlpool for almost too long, after about 3:00 minutes the piece seems to come to an end. But it isn't .... and Bram Beekman's inexorable performance is engraving in my soul again, for another minute and a half.

Jesus Christ, our Saviour,
who turned God's anger away from us
through his bitter suffering,
helped us out of the torments of hell.


As with f.i. the final chorus of Mahler 2 or the final movement of Tchaikovsky 6, I'm always very shaky after listening to this, in this particular performance none the less.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on February 14, 2011, 08:40:18 AM
Are Ahrend organs supposedly in the Neo-Baroque category?  I know of quite a few Bach recordings made on the same instrument (San Simpliciano, Milan) 

http://www.youtube.com/v/9YhBplWvk-c

[asin]B00080UZ34[/asin]

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 14, 2011, 08:55:34 AM
Quote from: Laurent on February 14, 2011, 08:40:18 AM
Are Ahrend organs supposedly in the Neo-Baroque category?  I know of quite a few Bach recordings made on the same instrument (San Simpliciano, Milan) 

[Lorenzo Ghielmi playing BWV 639]

I do consider his organs neo-baroque: modern instruments, yet both built and sounding in a 'baroque way'.
Ahrend is also a very good restorer of old organs.

About Ghielmi: I have some discs with him, and last year I attended a concert given by him. In Bach, I find him more convincing in the free works. This BWV 639 f.i. lacks an inner soul IMO (whatever 'inner soul' might mean ;)).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on February 14, 2011, 09:35:52 AM
I have almost all disc Rübsam did for Naxos and also 8 discs of Weinberger on CPO (these where 2 euros each). I prefer Rübsam because the CDs sound much more edgy and energetic. Weinberger's discs are "silky". I am not considering buying other performers because Rübsam sounds great.

Preludes/Fantasias & Fugues are the meat for me. Awesome stuff!

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 14, 2011, 10:27:56 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 14, 2011, 09:35:52 AM
[....] I am not considering buying other performers because Rübsam sounds great.

Good for you!

(But Beekman is better. Believe me. ;D)

Quote from: 71 dB
Preludes/Fantasias & Fugues are the meat for me. Awesome stuff!

Mmm, well, err, you just might want to have a go at Ghielmi, then? ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 14, 2011, 11:27:24 AM
Here's some real meat to me:

http://www.youtube.com/v/J0lk2dcHG-w

And after that:
off to bed!

This is Member Marcus sayin' good night to yez all, and God bless yez.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 14, 2011, 12:28:47 PM
Quote from: Marc
About Ghielmi: I have some discs with him, and last year I attended a concert given by him. In Bach, I find him more convincing in the free works.

So do I. Other than the CD Masolino mentions, Ghielmi has to my knowledge, recorded five Bach-only CDs, most of them using the Ahrend organ in Milano. There is unfortunately some overlapping between the CDs (more recordings of some of the Triosonatas and Concerto-arrangements). Before I regret a missing Bach integral from Ghielmi though, I more regret missing integrals from artists like Leo van Doeselaar and Stephen-Johannes Bleicher,. not to mention Jean-Charles Ablitzer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 22, 2011, 10:31:15 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 03, 2011, 07:55:32 AM
Anyone heard this one? What's it like?

[Paul Jacobs Plays Bach (An Unedited Release)]

Attractive program, especially for newbies (with pieces like BWV 542 and 582, and some well-known chorale preludes).
Jacobs's playing is OK, apart from some unmotivated (IMO) tempi and registration changes.
Recording quality is good, too. Warm and present.
To me, the main problems are the organs: like the Montreal instrument, these Von Beckeraths suffer from anaemia, which leads to a certain 'listening fatigue'.
Strang really, because I really like the sound of the Von Beckerath organ in Montélimar (France), where Olivier Vernet recorded his first Bach disc in 1988.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on March 22, 2011, 08:08:11 AM
It is here -- again. Marie-Claire Alain's third cycle of Bach's organ works.

[Click on image for details]

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/erato2564676018.jpg) (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Erato/2564676018)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 22, 2011, 05:49:47 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 22, 2011, 08:08:11 AM
It is here -- again. Marie-Claire Alain's third cycle of Bach's organ works.

[Click on image for details]

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/erato2564676018.jpg) (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Erato/2564676018)

Thanks for the link.  This should be my last Complete Bach Organ Works ...   :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 23, 2011, 12:56:07 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 22, 2011, 08:08:11 AM
It is here -- again. Marie-Claire Alain's third cycle of Bach's organ works.

[Click on image for details]

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/erato2564676018.jpg) (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Erato/2564676018)

Thanks for informing us!
I will keep it in mind. But, based on my listening experiences of a 2cd-sampler of this 3rd integral, I think her 2nd cycle is more interesting. Apart from the choice of organs, that is.

Quote from: Coopmv on March 22, 2011, 05:49:47 PM
[....] This should be my last Complete Bach Organ Works ...   :)

It should be, but will it be? ;)

(And .... actually, it's not complete.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 27, 2011, 05:43:03 AM


Organic Bach
& other new Bach releases

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/bach_logo_png3.png)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2890 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2890)

Organ Works with Hansjörg Albrecht (Oehms), High-romantic pianism with Simone Dinnerstein (Sony), Partitas with Irma Issakadze (Oehms), Murray Perahia (Sony), Freddy Kempf (BIS), Jeremy Denk (Azica), and the Well Tempered Clavier (Book II) with Richard Egarr (Harmonia Mundi).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2011, 04:03:58 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 22, 2011, 08:08:11 AM
It is here -- again. Marie-Claire Alain's third cycle of Bach's organ works.

[Click on image for details]

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/erato2564676018.jpg) (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Erato/2564676018)

Euro Boys & Girls who have some patience (until the end of this merry month): here's a bargain!

http://www.amazon.de/Works-Organ-Marie-Claire-Alain/dp/B004RUF022
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 08, 2011, 08:23:28 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 08, 2011, 04:03:58 AM
Euro Boys & Girls who have some patience (until the end of this merry month): here's a bargain!

http://www.amazon.de/Works-Organ-Marie-Claire-Alain/dp/B004RUF022

But this is first and foremost of interest to completists IMO, so far I consider the rerelease of her second integral to be a better bargain as it is musically more satisfying than her third integral.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2011, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: premont on May 08, 2011, 08:23:28 AM
But this is first and foremost of interest to completists IMO, so far I consider the rerelease of her second integral to be a better bargain as it is musically more satisfying than her third integral.

But this Euro boy already has that 2nd.

And this boy happens to be a completist, too.

So, what to do?

???

Post Scriptum: yes I admit, I ordered it from my last two cents. :-[
But also yes again: Premont is right. I have a 2cd sampler of MCA's 3rd integral, and in almost any piece I prefer her 2nd. But I couldn't resist it. :-[
Btw, in case the readers didn't know, just to make things clear about mrs. Bach-Alain's 1st integral (recorded in the sixties): AFAIK, it has never been released on cd.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 08, 2011, 10:20:19 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 08, 2011, 10:02:42 AM
But this Euro boy already has that 2nd.

And this boy happens to be a completist, too.

So, what to do?

???

Post Scriptum: yes I admit, I ordered it from my last two cents. :-[
But also yes again: Premont is right. I have a 2cd sampler of MCA's 3rd integral, and in almost any piece I prefer her 2nd. But I couldn't resist it. :-[
Btw, in case the readers didn't know, just to make things clear about mrs. Bach-Alain's 1st integral (recorded in the sixties): AFAIK, it has never been released on cd.

If he is a true completist he must get the third integral.  8)

And to make things even clearer.
M C Alains Bach recordings, all Erato:

1) A near integral on  Parisian organs in the mid 1950es
2) First integral on Danish neo-baroque organs (1959 - ca.1966)
3) Second integral on well sounding neo-baroque organs (late 1970es)
4) Third integral on historical organs (1990es)

In between she recorded a few CDs with selected works, among others the Triosonatas.

I have never heard anything from the first (French) near-integral, whereas I know most of the first integral on Danish organs, which I heard in my youth in Copenhagen. The playing is unspectacular - but the integral is interesting because of the many important Marcussen and Frobenius organs used.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on May 08, 2011, 10:23:58 AM
Quote from: premont on May 08, 2011, 10:20:19 AM
In between she recorded a few CDs with selected works, among others the Triosonatas.

And the AoF, if I'm not mistaken, on the organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2011, 11:02:48 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 08, 2011, 10:23:58 AM
And the AoF, if I'm not mistaken, on the organ.

Yep. Not a bad one, either. Have not listened to it for quite a while, but, if I remember well, Alain kept the tension by using rather slow tempi in general, without dragging it on.

(http://i51.tinypic.com/jhdboo.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 08, 2011, 11:06:50 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 08, 2011, 04:03:58 AM
Euro Boys & Girls who have some patience (until the end of this merry month): here's a bargain!

http://www.amazon.de/Works-Organ-Marie-Claire-Alain/dp/B004RUF022

Is this the last cycle recorded by Marie-Claire Alain?  I am most interested to get the set and am not sure if I want to pay the shipping cost from Germany.  I will wait for Presto or MDT running their sales.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2011, 11:21:34 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 08, 2011, 11:06:50 AM
Is this the last cycle recorded by Marie-Claire Alain?

Yep.
The one you've been waiting for .... well, almost this entire thread! ;D

(Maybe even long enough to endure the xtra blee[censored] tax payment.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 08, 2011, 12:04:30 PM
IMO, this is the best version of Bach Trio-Sonatas, though I have yet to own a complete Bach Organ Works by Marie-Claire Alain.  I do have most of the individual CD's that make up her second cycle, including this CD ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Q96GZ883L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 08, 2011, 01:07:30 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 08, 2011, 10:23:58 AM
And the AoF, if I'm not mistaken, on the organ.

Yes, you are right, she even recorded it twice.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on May 11, 2011, 05:26:24 AM
Opinions on the 14-CD organ works collection played by Simon Preston?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 11, 2011, 05:34:35 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 08, 2011, 12:04:30 PM
... I do have most of the individual CD's that make up her second cycle, including this CD ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Q96GZ883L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Dear Premont,

A disambiguation is required here... again.

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DavidW on May 11, 2011, 05:36:53 AM
Karl, I think that when people talked about it before they said Preston was hit or miss.  The ones usually rec'd are Walcha, Leonhardt, Weinberger.  At least the first should be a bargain buy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on May 11, 2011, 05:41:01 AM
Cool, thanks!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 11, 2011, 06:07:48 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 11, 2011, 05:34:35 AM
Dear Premont,

A disambiguation is required here... again.

:)

Probably useless. I think he is beyond therapeutic reach.  ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DavidW on May 11, 2011, 06:25:15 AM
I like your new handle Premont. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 11, 2011, 11:30:11 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 11, 2011, 05:26:24 AM
Opinions on the 14-CD organ works collection played by Simon Preston?

Personally, Preston is too superficial to me, and sometimes even annoying. It feels like he's dancing on a nail bed, especially in many non-liturgical works, with the exception btw of the Trio Sonatas.
The best part of his set is m.i. the so-called Orgelmesse, played on the wonderful Joachim Wagner organ (1739-1741) in Trondheim Cathedral, Norway. In general, I have the feeling that as soon as the Almighty, his Son and/or the Holy Ghost are part of a piece, Preston seems to get more inspired. There is also some good stuff in the Orgelbüchlein and the Leipzig Choräle. Pity he did not include BWV 668: 'Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit'.

A good choice with non-historical organs is IMO the 2nd set of Marie-Claire Alain. A good choice with historical instruments: Bernard Foccroulle.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 11, 2011, 12:32:18 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 11, 2011, 05:26:24 AM
Opinions on the 14-CD organ works collection played by Simon Preston?

What I've heard of it I did not terribly enjoy.  Putting aside the super-complete Weinberger (which has, what, 6 CDs of music people used to think was by Bach) the Alain is the top of the pile, IMO.

[asin]B000RZOR2K[/asin]

Koopman is in the same class

[asin]B001R3YJS8[/asin]

and Walcha is very fine if you can stand the dated audio.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 12, 2011, 03:20:44 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 11, 2011, 06:25:15 AM
I like your new handle Premont. :)

Thanks. It was actually you, who - in another thread - promted me to make the change.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on May 12, 2011, 04:43:00 AM
Thank you all!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 12, 2011, 10:30:24 AM
Can you make some recommendations for Clavier-Übung III  -- especially the choral preludes therein?

Which are the real landmark recordings?  I've just realised that I only own Walcha's second recording, and I like this music, so I'm keen to explore what has been done with it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on May 12, 2011, 10:47:34 AM
Say!  Must be old news, but . . . .

The Eight Little Preludes and Fugues were falsely attributed to Bach, eh?  I feel a little let down . . . first knew the g minor from this set in band transcription which we musty have played, oh, in seventh grade . . . .
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on May 12, 2011, 10:55:39 AM
Marie-Claire Alain is decidedly on my wish list.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 12, 2011, 11:06:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 12, 2011, 10:30:24 AM
Can you make some recommendations for Clavier-Übung III  -- especially the choral preludes therein?

Which are the real landmark recordings?  I've just realised that I only own Walcha's second recording, and I like this music, so I'm keen to explore what has been done with it.

Koopman is very good IMHO (Teldec, see above for the boxset), and so are his compatriots Bram Beekman (Lindenberg) and Ewald Kooiman (Coronata), but .... alas OOP.
Another Dutchman, Leo van Doeselaar, recorded the 'grand chorales' (Große Orgelmesse) in a convincing way for Channel Classics, combined with sung chorales and choir pieces by (mostly) 16th/17th century composers. An interesting issue and still available AFAIK.
I also liked the smaller chorales (Kleine Orgelmesse) played by Gerhard Weinberger for his integral (CPO).

OOP, but still available at some online marketplaces: the two volumes by Edgar Krapp, which he recorded for Berlin Classics. My advice would be: get them, before they are out of stock.
Here are some possibilities:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Clavier-Ubung-Praludium-Grosse-Choralbearbeitungen/dp/B000006LIZ/
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000026HRE/

But you know, there are so many great recordings of these pieces. Even Simon Preston, who isn't my fave Bach interpreter, delivers great stuff on the historic organ of Trondheim (DG).
Right now it's very difficult, if not impossible, to pick my 'personal landmark recording(s)'. But there are some recordings that I really would not recommend, f.i. Kei Koito (Harmonic Records) and a disappointing shallow one by Masaaki Suzuki (BIS). (Although I do like Suzuki in Bach's vocal and harpsichord compositions, though.)

Probably Premont, Que, Antoine, Bulldog and others have some more (and better) interesting ideas about great performances of this my very favourite Bach collection of organ works. Man, do I love this third part of the CU! :-*
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 12, 2011, 11:15:12 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 12, 2011, 10:47:34 AM
Say!  Must be old news, but . . . .

The Eight Little Preludes and Fugues were falsely attributed to Bach, eh?  I feel a little let down . . . first knew the g minor from this set in band transcription which we musty have played, oh, in seventh grade . . . .


Yes, I've heard from several enthousiastic organ amateurs that those Eight are quite popular and standard stuff at their lessons.
Who wrote them? If we only knew .... probably not JSB himself. Many names have been suggested. Best-known of those are father & son Krebs (Johann Tobias and Johann Ludwig), W.F. Bach and Johann Caspar Ferdinand Fischer.
I think they're really beautiful and I have the weakest spot for the one in E-minor (BWV 555), with the melancholic Prelude and the rather impressive Fugue.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 12, 2011, 11:22:30 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 12, 2011, 10:55:39 AM
Marie-Claire Alain is decidedly on my wish list.

Make sure it's this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Organ-Works-Marie-Claire-Alain/dp/B000RZOR2K/

One disadvantage: no Neumeister Choräle, but there are many good issues with those .... like this one (just to give an example):

http://www.amazon.com/Organ-Chorales-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B00006FIC6/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on May 12, 2011, 11:25:09 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 12, 2011, 11:22:30 AM
Make sure it's this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Organ-Works-Marie-Claire-Alain/dp/B000RZOR2K/ (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Organ-Works-Marie-Claire-Alain/dp/B000RZOR2K/)

One disadvantage: no Neumeister Choräle, but there are many good issues with those .... like this one (just to give an example):

http://www.amazon.com/Organ-Chorales-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B00006FIC6/ (http://www.amazon.com/Organ-Chorales-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B00006FIC6/)

Thanks!

Say, do you ever have occasion to play with a brass quintet?  Or have I asked you that already?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 12, 2011, 11:28:32 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 12, 2011, 11:25:09 AM
Thanks!

Say, do you ever have occasion to play with a brass quintet?  Or have I asked you that already?


Mm, I don't play brass. But I did enjoy some Bach fugues once in a concert with four/five saxophones, especially the Fugue in G-minor BWV 578.
At home, I sometimes play a little piano, like Purcell, Burgmüller, Clementi, Heller, Cimarosa and an arrangement of Old Joe Clark's Boogie. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2011, 12:05:07 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 12, 2011, 11:28:32 AM
At home, I sometimes play a little piano, like Purcell, Burgmüller, Clementi, Heller, Cimarosa and an arrangement of Old Joe Clark's Boogie. :)

Friedrich Burgmüller op. 100. 25 leichte Etuden??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 15, 2011, 12:09:50 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 15, 2011, 12:05:07 PM
Friedrich Burgmüller op. 100. 25 leichte Etuden??

Dear Premont, this is OT. :P

But yes, it's op. 100. After some 30 years, I'm almost able to play no. 2 (Arabesque) with only 3 mistakes.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2011, 12:10:01 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 12, 2011, 10:30:24 AM
Can you make some recommendations for Clavier-Übung III  -- especially the choral preludes therein?
Which are the real landmark recordings?

This is a difficult question to answer.

During the years I have collected 57 different recordings of Clavierübung III, and this lot represents the lions share of the existing recordings of the work. I have  memorised these briefly, and some of them I like better than others, but I can neither recall any landmark recording or any recording which is completely superfluous.
If you give me some time, I will make up some recommendations for you.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 15, 2011, 12:11:47 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 15, 2011, 12:10:01 PM
[repeating a question]

Not so hasty, my fwiend.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2011, 12:23:38 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 15, 2011, 12:09:50 PM
Dear Premont, this is OT. :P

But yes, it's op. 100. After some 30 years, I'm almost able to play no. 2 (Arabesque) with only 3 mistakes.

You make somewhat nostalgic, since I played these with great pleasure in my youth. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2011, 12:25:40 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 15, 2011, 12:11:47 PM
Not so hasty, my fwiend.

So I have edited the post.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 15, 2011, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 15, 2011, 12:10:01 PM
This is a difficult question to answer.

During the years I have collected 57 different recordings of Clavierübung III, and this lot represents the lions share of the existing recordings of the work. I have  memorised these briefly, and some of them I like better than others, but I can neither recall any landmark recording or any recording which is completely superfluous.
If you give me some time, I will make up some recommendations for you.

Come to think of it (I even forgot to mention it myself in my attempt to answer Mandryka): do you know Wim van Beek's recording?

(http://i54.tinypic.com/3522g5e.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2011, 01:16:51 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 15, 2011, 12:59:37 PM
Come to think of it (I even forgot to mention it myself in my attempt to answer Mandryka): do you know Wim van Beek's recording?

(http://i54.tinypic.com/3522g5e.jpg)

No; I did not even know it exists.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 16, 2011, 10:26:22 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 15, 2011, 01:16:51 PM
No; I did not even know it exists.

Some examples:

Kyrie, Gott, Heiliger Geist BWV 671
http://www.mediafire.com/?acj173180obaty2

Christ, unser Herr, zum Jordan kam BWV 684
http://www.mediafire.com/?hvgt5l7wydon6ln

Jesus Christus, unser Heiland BWV 689
http://www.mediafire.com/?ae7pxewcx1xetp7

If one's interested in Wim van Beek's Bach recordings, here's his website:
http://www.helior.nl/

It's in the Dutch language, but it's not that difficult to check out his recordings. I really can't tell if it's possible to order something from abroad, but who knows .... it's free to ask!

Here's the e-mail adress:
info@helior.nl
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 16, 2011, 12:05:36 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 16, 2011, 10:26:22 AM
Some examples:

Kyrie, Gott, Heiliger Geist BWV 671
http://www.mediafire.com/?acj173180obaty2

Christ, unser Herr, zum Jordan kam BWV 684
http://www.mediafire.com/?hvgt5l7wydon6ln

Jesus Christus, unser Heiland BWV 689
http://www.mediafire.com/?ae7pxewcx1xetp7

If one's interested in Wim van Beek's Bach recordings, here's his website:
http://www.helior.nl/

It's in the Dutch language, but it's not that difficult to check out his recordings. I really can't tell if it's possible to order something from abroad, but who knows .... it's free to ask!

Here's the e-mail adress:
info@helior.nl

Thanks for the musical examples and the information, Marc :). Being on duty now I have not heard the music yet, but  I have enjoyed the Roskilde CD very much, and I am certainly going to write to the label to morrow. These recordings are indeed mandatory.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 16, 2011, 10:36:05 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 15, 2011, 12:10:01 PM
This is a difficult question to answer.

During the years I have collected 57 different recordings of Clavierübung III, and this lot represents the lions share of the existing recordings of the work. I have  memorised these briefly, and some of them I like better than others, but I can neither recall any landmark recording or any recording which is completely superfluous.
If you give me some time, I will make up some recommendations for you.

I didn't realise I was asking such a difficult question!

Anyway, I've followed one of  marc's recommendations and got hold of Koopman's performance. I've also ordered Walcha's mono (thanks for the lead to the cheap box). So I've got something to keep me occupied for a while. The Walcha stereo is permanently playing in the car, so I'm getting to know this music much better (the mood changes in the music  are really interesting.)

By the way marc, thanks for the review of the Jacobs CD, which I only just saw. I think I'll leave it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 17, 2011, 06:46:19 AM
While I can support the recommendation of Holm Vogel´s Clavierübung III as well as his Triosonatas

this release contains all six sonatas:
http://www.amazon.de/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Holm-Vogel/dp/B00004KDCN/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1305642783&sr=1-4

I do not particulary care for Michel Chapuis´ Bach, even if he is playing the 18 Chorales on the magnificent Botzen/Marcussen organ in Vor Frelsers Kirke, Copenhagen (my avatar), and even if his 18 Chorales (and Clavierübung III as well - though played on a more uninteresting generic von Beckerath-organ) are among the most successful parts of his set. His playing is generally swift and mechanical with little care for details, and his registrations are ultrasharp with too weak 8´ foundation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 17, 2011, 09:56:46 AM
Quote from: James on May 17, 2011, 03:00:09 AM
Top Bach ..

[....]

[asin]B000001WJB[/asin]
And check out Walcha's pupil the blind german organist Holm Vogel...his recordings of the Trio Sonatas are the best I've ever heard and I've heard lots.

Thanks for the reminder! Managed to grab the nicely priced twofer on some marketplace site:

(http://i55.tinypic.com/15p1y8g.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2011, 05:39:49 PM
Quote from: James on May 17, 2011, 03:00:09 AM
Top Bach ..

[asin]B000027OE1[/asin]
Organ chorale preludes, some of the best music ever. The 18 Leipzig Chorales, his end of life gathering together/summation of the best of his organ work. With this set, they get it so right. Above all, the highest of recommendations.

[asin]B000001WJB[/asin]
And check out Walcha's pupil the blind german organist Holm Vogel...his recordings of the Trio Sonatas are the best I've ever heard and I've heard lots. Perfection. I also love his recording of Clavier-Übung III, which is also very great.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71px3lC26xL._SL500_.jpg)

Helmut Walcha himself went blind when he was 18 or 19 ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 23, 2011, 06:30:37 AM

via Alex Ross


(http://thewire.co.uk/resources/thewire-logo.png)

Collateral Damage

The True Cost of Uploading


http://thewire.co.uk/articles/6715/ (http://thewire.co.uk/articles/6715/)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 23, 2011, 11:10:09 AM
Uploading some files from Piet Wiersma in Uithuizen, from an OOP set, which was only available once in the Netherlands, produced and sold by a non-profit foundation.

Now, without any message sent to me, these files were deleted.

In the past, almost every file that I uploaded came from an OOP disc. Like the (also deleted links of the) Rübsam Philips integral set, which Universal apparantly refuses to re-release.

Meanwhile, many of those large recording labels keep producing the same re-releases in brisk tempo again and again, with and/or without some 'attractive' add-ons, to tempt the music lover again, in different packages for diffferent prizes at different sublabels, fooling consumers all around the world, and GMG needs to advertize for them to maintain its forum's existence.

Good luck!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 23, 2011, 02:26:32 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 23, 2011, 11:10:09 AM
Uploading some files from Piet Wiersma in Uithuizen, from an OOP set, which was only available once in the Netherlands, produced and sold by a non-profit foundation.

Now, without any message sent to me, these files were deleted.

In the past, almost every file that I uploaded came from an OOP disc. Like the (also deleted links of the) Rübsam Philips integral set, which Universal apparantly refuses to re-release.

Meanwhile, many of those large recording labels keep producing the same re-releases in brisk tempo again and again, with and/or without some 'attractive' add-ons, to tempt the music lover again, in different packages for diffferent prizes at different sublabels, fooling consumers all around the world, and GMG needs to advertize for them to maintain its forum's existence.

Good luck!

It does not strike me as unreasonable that the managers of this site do not want it tagged as a distributor of copyrighted material, since that might make them subject to legal action by copyright holders. 

Beyond that, your criticism of the record labels for not having every recording they ever made continuously in print strikes me as bizarre.  The amount of music that is available at a low price is unprecedented, the copyright holders of the Rübsam set have two complete Bach organ work cycles in print, ~15 discs for $50.  The Rübsam set has only been out of print for a few years, and it is their right to decide when would be an opportune time to re-release it. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 23, 2011, 08:19:05 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 23, 2011, 02:26:32 PM
It does not strike me as unreasonable that the managers of this site do not want it tagged as a distributor of copyrighted material, since that might make them subject to legal action by copyright holders. 

True. It's even part of this board's guidelines, last edited in 2007 (I only read them yesterday :-[).

Strange though: scroll upwards and you'll find some mediafire links, placed by yours truly about a week ago, promoting a 2-cd that is still available: nothing happened.

Say what?

Scroll upwards and downwards on this entire board: you'll find many uploaded copyrighted material, from Youtube to Mediafire to whatever. These posts aren't deleted. And maybe the material wasn't even all OOP and .... maybe some of those links were even offered by mods. Pfui, pfui.

Last year I uploaded almost an entire (OOP) Ewald Kooiman disc, and was thanked for that by a moderator. Should he be released from his tasks?

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 23, 2011, 02:26:32 PM
Beyond that, your criticism of the record labels for not having every recording they ever made continuously in print strikes me as bizarre.  The amount of music that is available at a low price is unprecedented, the copyright holders of the Rübsam set have two complete Bach organ work cycles in print, ~15 discs for $50.  The Rübsam set has only been out of print for a few years, and it is their right to decide when would be an opportune time to re-release it.

Of course it's their right.

And it's the copyright holder's right to re-release their Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler, Great Conductor, Great Performer sets unendlessly from time to time, changing just a tiny bit in offered music but sometimes changing a less tiny bit in prize.

DG keeping both the 'expensive' and the 'cheap' Bach organ integral of Preston available. It's their right.

Decca/Universal re-releasing the Mozart/Brendel/Marriner concertos boxset twice in about three year's time, very low priced at a sublabel (yet without the nos 1-4 by Ingrid Haebler) and re-releasing them again at their headlabel for a much higher prize, yet with adding the nos 1-4 by Haebler, and advertizing for this one. Both these sets are still available. It's their right.

Not to mention the re-releasing strategies of much Von Karajan and Bernstein stuff.
How many times have those DG Mahler/Bernstein performances been re-released?
Well, it's their right.

It's their right to fool the consumer and, who knows, dig their own grave in the end.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 23, 2011, 08:35:28 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 23, 2011, 08:19:05 PMIt's their right to fool the consumer and, who knows, dig their own grave in the end.

I fail to see who you think they are "fooling" or what dark purpose you imagine they have.  They release what is popular and what sells, and if something doesn't sell they keep it in the can for a while until demand builds up enough to justify another release.   How could they benefit from keeping things off of the market if there is sufficient demand to justify a release?

There certainly are things in the major labels catalogs which I would like to get my hands on.  I'm a bit annoyed with myself for not getting the Rubsam set when it was available, or the Doyen Faure set.  But I have more stuff than I have time to listen to anyway.   :P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 23, 2011, 08:38:31 PM
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18505.0.html
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 23, 2011, 08:50:12 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 23, 2011, 08:38:31 PM
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18505.0.html

Yes, I did not forget that thread.  Record labels do things that annoy me sometimes, but so what?  The economics are driving the labels to release giant multidisc sets at bargain prices, to maintain liquidity, I presume, and I've benefited from that a lot.  Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.  You will rarely go wrong with that rule.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 23, 2011, 08:56:13 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 23, 2011, 08:50:12 PM
Yes, I did not forget that thread.  Record labels do things that annoy me sometimes, but so what?  The economics are driving the labels to release giant multidisc sets at bargain prices, to maintain liquidity, I presume, and I've benefited from that a lot.  Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.  You will rarely go wrong with that rule.

Ah, now I see.

Why do record labels mess with us?
How long are they going to drag this out?
Again, how long do they plan to string me along?

You were only asking rhetorical questions then.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 23, 2011, 09:09:01 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 23, 2011, 08:56:13 PM
Ah, now I see.

Why do record labels mess with us?
How long are they going to drag this out?
Again, how long do they plan to string me along?

You were only asking rhetorical questions then.

Yes, I do wish they would get on with it.  It doesn't give me the right to distribute their copyrighted material.  Presumably they think the public has a limited appetite for Argerich and that if they dump it all at once it won't sell as well.  That's their right, they produced all those recordings afterall.  But those albums are mostly available in their original versions or previous reissues, so if I really wanted them I could get them.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: haydnguy on May 23, 2011, 09:31:53 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 23, 2011, 06:30:37 AM
via Alex Ross


(http://thewire.co.uk/resources/thewire-logo.png)

Collateral Damage

The True Cost of Uploading


http://thewire.co.uk/articles/6715/ (http://thewire.co.uk/articles/6715/)

I have not thought through this, but I was thinking that motivation behind having people store their music in the cloud might be another DRM attempt. Only, since it's in the cloud they can change the coding frequently so it won't be so easy to break. Again, I haven't thought this through.


I have not thought through this, but I was thinking that motivation behind having people store their music in the cloud might be another DRM attempt. Only, since it's in the cloud they can change the coding frequently so it won't be so easy to break. Again, I haven't thought this through.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DavidW on May 24, 2011, 06:58:55 AM
Marc, why don't you simply pm or email the links to your friends that you want to have it?  Easy enough.
Quote from: Marc on May 23, 2011, 08:19:05 PM
Strange though: scroll upwards and you'll find some mediafire links, placed by yours truly about a week ago, promoting a 2-cd that is still available: nothing happened.

Quote
Last year I uploaded almost an entire (OOP) Ewald Kooiman disc, and was thanked for that by a moderator. Should he be released from his tasks?

I think, but don't know, that the mods split their work load with different chores for different mods.  One to merge and split threads, one to delete spam, one to remove copyrighted material.  I'm sure they all enjoy breaking up fights and laying the smack down on disruptive posters :D but I wouldn't be surprised if only one or two mods delete your mf links.  And that seems like alot of work.  You should just be happy that most of them haven't been deleted. :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 24, 2011, 09:02:56 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 24, 2011, 06:58:55 AM
Marc, why don't you simply pm or email the links to your friends that you want to have it?  Easy enough.

Quite so, sharing a copy of an out-of-print recording with a friend on a one-to-one basis is not the same as posting the same material on an open forum, making it available to anyone that knows how to use google.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on May 24, 2011, 10:03:01 AM
Wow, why such a furore over something that has happened many times before, not just in this thread but in many others? There's even a whole thread dedicated to this stuff -- not OOP recordings, but telecasts and radio broadcasts of concerts, and I'm sure most of you would have visited and perhaps even downloaded some of the material.

C'mon, guys, I want to know: does Bach's organ still work? :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 24, 2011, 10:07:05 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 24, 2011, 10:03:01 AM
Wow, why such a furore over something that has happened many times before, not just in this thread but in many others? There's even a whole thread dedicated to this stuff -- not OOP recordings, but telecasts and radio broadcasts of concerts, and I'm sure most of you would have visited and perhaps even downloaded some of the material.

I assumed tempest-in-a-teacup involves deletion of links to material available in violation of copyright. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on May 24, 2011, 10:11:19 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 24, 2011, 10:07:05 AM
I assumed tempest-in-a-teacup involves deletion of links to material available in violation of copyright. 

Wouldn't posting recordings of broadcasts/ripped streams of concerts count too?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DavidW on May 24, 2011, 10:41:02 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 24, 2011, 10:03:01 AM
C'mon, guys, I want to know: does Bach's organ still work? :)

I assume it's rotted away quite awhile ago. :D Good thing he got good use of it while he was alive. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 24, 2011, 01:03:26 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 24, 2011, 10:11:19 AM
Wouldn't posting recordings of broadcasts/ripped streams of concerts count too?

I assume that would be not allowed, strictly.  Mostly I notice people here posting links to sites that stream content with the blessing of the copyright holder, such as TV stations that have their programs available for streaming, etc. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DavidW on May 27, 2011, 08:52:57 AM
THat is wow!!!  Alaine must be the greatest organist ever, I never heard such a dramatic, yet musical such perfectly paced... amazing! :) :) :) :)

Thanks for sharing Antoine.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 27, 2011, 09:15:07 AM
Quote from: mozartfan on May 27, 2011, 08:52:57 AM
THat is wow!!!  Alaine must be the greatest organist ever, I never heard such a dramatic, yet musical such perfectly paced... amazing! :) :) :) :)

Thanks for sharing Antoine.

You're welcome, David.

She and Helmut Walcha; they, in my humble (because it is highly uniformed) opinion, are the greatest organist that I have listened to ever. Like Ali, they are not probably the best in every fight, but finally the greatest.  :) 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on May 27, 2011, 10:01:08 AM
Couldn't be in every fight ... who could keep up with Henk?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 27, 2011, 10:42:49 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 27, 2011, 09:15:07 AM
You're welcome, David.

She and Helmut Walcha; they, in my humble (because it is highly uniformed) opinion, are the greatest organist that I have listened to ever. Like Ali, they are not probably the best in every fight, but finally the greatest.  :)

Is that one of the Erato recordings?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 27, 2011, 11:11:31 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 27, 2011, 10:42:49 AM
Is that one of the Erato recordings?

Yes, although more specifically it is her second traversal played on some neo-Baroque organs (the Schwenkedel organ at the Collégiale de Saint-Donat, France, in this case).

To be precise, this one:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646990283.jpg)

I stress this point because her third integral (also released and re-released on Erato, but played on period instruments) is again available these days for an excellent price:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646760183.jpg)

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 27, 2011, 11:15:15 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 27, 2011, 11:11:31 AM
Yes, although more specifically it is her second traversal played on some neo-Baroque organs (the Schwenkedel organ at the Collégiale de Saint-Donat, France, in this case).

To be precise, this one:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646990283.jpg)

I stress this point because her third integral (also released and re-released on Erato, but played on period instruments) is again available these days for an excellent price:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646760183.jpg)

:)

Good.  The first is the one I have and the second is the one I sold to pay for the one I have.   :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 27, 2011, 11:38:27 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 27, 2011, 11:15:15 AM
Good.  The first is the one I have and the second is the one I sold to pay for the one I have.   :)

If you had the original edition that I have, you probably got some cash back because the price of them is very different.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 27, 2011, 11:51:14 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 27, 2011, 11:38:27 AM
If you had the original edition that I have, you probably got some cash back because the price of them is very different.

Yes, the one I had was enormous with a separate case for each CD.  I'm certain I cleared a big enough profit after getting the reissued analog set to buy the digital set again.  But I didn't like it much--sound too reverberant and washy.  Now I've got too many Bach organ cycles on the shelf to be tempted (Alain, Walcha (stereo), Koopman, Weinberger, Ritchie).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DavidW on May 27, 2011, 12:00:16 PM
There is a reissue coming out at a slightly cheaper price this summer (in about a month) so I've preordered it:

[asin]B004RUF022[/asin]

Unless you know any cheaper deals?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 27, 2011, 12:07:00 PM
Quote from: mozartfan on May 27, 2011, 12:00:16 PMUnless you know any cheaper deals?

When it is actually released the marketplace sellers will jump in and undercut, so I think it will almost certainly be available cheaper.  But Amazon his that slightly infuriating policy with pre-orders, that you get the lowest price that was offered during the time you had it in your cart, but you don't find out exactly how low until they ship it and tell your your "price guarantee" savings. 

As I mentioned above, I have a preference for the previous cycle

[asin]B000RZOR2K[/asin]

which was recorded with a slightly less reverberant perspective.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 29, 2011, 02:19:34 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 27, 2011, 12:07:00 PM
When it is actually released the marketplace sellers will jump in and undercut, so I think it will almost certainly be available cheaper.  But Amazon his that slightly infuriating policy with pre-orders, that you get the lowest price that was offered during the time you had it in your cart, but you don't find out exactly how low until they ship it and tell your your "price guarantee" savings. 
I think if you look up your order, it will show you the lowest price. It did this with an order I made, where the shipping date moved by over a month. I left the order in place, and now it shows a lower price than when I initially ordered it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 29, 2011, 09:44:27 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 27, 2011, 11:51:14 AM
Yes, the one I had was enormous with a separate case for each CD.  I'm certain I cleared a big enough profit after getting the reissued analog set to buy the digital set again.  But I didn't like it much--sound too reverberant and washy.

Hm, right now I'm listening to that 3rd Alain cycle, and I'm not having much problems with the sound. In fact, I prefer the historic instruments of that cycle. But Alain's playing has become more uneven and less appealing. So, in the end, the 2nd one is still the best choice IMO.

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia
Now I've got too many Bach organ cycles on the shelf to be tempted (Alain, Walcha (stereo), Koopman, Weinberger, Ritchie).

That's quite a tasty collection!

My personal problem is: I got addicted to Bach's organ during the last 2 years in a very aggressive way. So I've been hunting for (almost) anything, which really harmed my financial position. :P
The sunny side: I've had the pleasure of purchasing some very interesting and impressive OOP material. Many (copies) of them are now my loyal friends whilst travelling to and from work, where I try to earn some money back. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 29, 2011, 09:59:05 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2011, 09:44:27 AM
My personal problem is...

The sunny side: ...

I think part of the positive side is that you live in Holland, a good thing for any lover of Baroque organ music.

As an aside: I knew it... those hands were familiar:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vPURPO1vUDA/Td_wftiJi2I/AAAAAAAADxg/cDKUeDbwFiQ/s1600/Front.jpg)

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 29, 2011, 10:26:26 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 29, 2011, 09:59:05 AM
I think part of the positive side is that you live in Holland, a good thing for any lover of Baroque organ music.

I found there is some truth in that. :)

Quote from: Antoine Marchand
As an aside: I knew it... those hands were familiar:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vPURPO1vUDA/Td_wftiJi2I/AAAAAAAADxg/cDKUeDbwFiQ/s1600/Front.jpg)

:)

It's a good and well-thought aside though: in fact, Alessio Corti's integral is one of the best on non-historical instruments IMO, together with Ritchie and Alain 2. But it's not easy to get for a modest price.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on May 29, 2011, 11:34:40 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2011, 10:26:26 AM
I found there is some truth in that. :)

It's a good and well-thought aside though: in fact, Alessio Corti's integral is one of the best on non-historical instruments IMO, together with Ritchie and Alain 2. But it's not easy to get for a modest price.

That's a surprise, what type of instruments does Alessio Corti use?  :)

BTW, that cycle can be ordered directly and at a decent price here (http://www.concertoclassics.it/english/catalogo_dettagli.php?codice=1&pagina=4&dove=catalogo.php).

(http://www.concertoclassics.it/file/prodotti/big/2008_08_11_12_04_44-bach_integrale_CD2000.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 29, 2011, 01:15:26 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2011, 09:44:27 AM
Hm, right now I'm listening to that 3rd Alain cycle, and I'm not having much problems with the sound. In fact, I prefer the historic instruments of that cycle. But Alain's playing has become more uneven and less appealing. So, in the end, the 2nd one is still the best choice IMO.

Exactly my words.

Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2011, 10:26:26 AM
.... in fact, Alessio Corti's integral is one of the best on non-historical instruments IMO, together with Ritchie and Alain 2.

Agreed as to Alain 2. and Corti. However I prefer Rübsam 1. Rogg 3. and Stockmeier to Ritchie.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 29, 2011, 01:21:55 PM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on May 29, 2011, 11:34:40 AM
That's a surprise, what type of instruments does Alessio Corti use?  :)

He uses two modern ( generic,  Antoine would say  -  I suppose )  organs made by the Italian organ building firm Tamburini. They are rather neutral in sound, displaying no specific historical or national style.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 29, 2011, 01:24:20 PM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on May 29, 2011, 11:34:40 AM
That's a surprise, [....]

No, it isn't.

Quote from: Marc on January 25, 2011, 09:29:01 AM
[....]
(And it's Kooiman the Second who's in the lead, a neck in front from Beekman, third is Foccroulle followed by Corti. Next in the field is Rübsam the First from Ritchie, behind them there's a packed group lead by Koopman, Vernet and Alain the Second, with Weinberger, Fagius and both Walcha's not that far away. Then comes Stockmeier with Rogg the Second, and Vad and Hurford are still very close with maybe a chance to make up some ground in the next hundred yards or so.)

;)

Quote from: ~ Que ~
what type of instruments does Alessio Corti use?  :)

Grande Organo Tamburini of the Chiesa di Santa Maria Segreta & Organo Tamburini of the Chiesa Cristiana Protestante in Milano.
These Tamburini's are maybe not ideal for Bach (a bit shallow), but Corti's playing definitely is. Straightforward, no-nonsense, yet with full dedication and good registration.

Quote from: ~ Que ~
BTW, that cycle can be ordered directly and at a decent price here (http://www.concertoclassics.it/english/catalogo_dettagli.php?codice=1&pagina=4&dove=catalogo.php).

Good news, especially for the Euro Boys & Girls!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 29, 2011, 01:26:03 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2011, 10:26:26 AM
I found there is some truth in that. :)

But the second best after living i Holland yourself  is to know someone, who does, and who cares for organ music.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 29, 2011, 01:30:23 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 29, 2011, 01:26:03 PM
But the second best after living i Holland yourself  is to know someone, who does, and who cares for organ music.  :)

Well, sure, everybody loves ~ Que ~!

:-*
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 29, 2011, 01:32:22 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2011, 01:30:23 PM
Well, sure, everybody loves ~ Que ~!

:-*

You rascal, you knew what I meant.  :P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 29, 2011, 01:33:51 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 29, 2011, 01:32:22 PM
You rascal, you knew what I meant.  :P

Listening to Van Beek and Wiersma again, I guess? ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 29, 2011, 01:35:34 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2011, 01:33:51 PM
Listening to Van Beek and Wiersma again, I guess? ;D

No, listening to Ablitzer with a special purpose.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 29, 2011, 01:44:36 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 29, 2011, 01:35:34 PM
No, listening to Ablitzer with a special purpose.  :)

Even without any purpose: Ablitzer is good, both in Bach and Buxtehude!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 29, 2011, 01:46:04 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2011, 10:26:26 AM
Alessio Corti's integral is one of the best on non-historical instruments... But it's not easy to get for a modest price.

I bought my set on the Marketplace of Amazon.fr, then I send it to USA because it was not possible a direct delivery to Chile. Finally, I approximately paid EUR 190 or so by Corti's integral, considering shipping and customs. Unfortunately, I didn't know on time the info provided by Q. Anyway, I don't regret the purchase. I am a stubborn guy.  ;D 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 29, 2011, 01:51:35 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 29, 2011, 01:46:04 PM
I bought my set on the Marketplace of Amazon.fr, then I send it to USA because it was not possible a direct delivery to Chile. Finally, I approximately paid EUR 190 or so by Corti's integral, considering shipping and customs. Unfortunately, I didn't know on time the info provided by Q. Anyway, I don't regret the purchase. I am a stubborn guy.  ;D

I was so lucky to get it for 60 or 65 euro last year; at the time it was the last nice-priced copy on Amazon.de, if I remember well.
As long as you don't regret the purchase, there's no problem. Corti's most certainly an interesting set to have. It includes a very fine Kunst der Fuge, too.

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Corti.htm
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on May 29, 2011, 01:54:07 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2011, 01:24:20 PM
No, it isn't.

I knew you liked Corti.

I was referring to the fact that he wasn't using historical instruments... You rascal! ;D ;)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 29, 2011, 01:58:52 PM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on May 29, 2011, 01:54:07 PM
[....]
You rascal! ;D ;)

:o

Well, I'll be ....  >:D >:( :P

JANSELDERIJ NOG AN TOE!

(Me thinks I'm in need for some De Profundis BWV 686 .... ;D)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 29, 2011, 02:10:25 PM
No, I'm fixing a more happy ending to this day:

BWV 593, borrowed from the Red Priest, played by La Grande Dame de l'Orgue:

(http://i52.tinypic.com/34xmkya.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 29, 2011, 02:20:34 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2011, 01:44:36 PM
Even without any purpose: Ablitzer is good, both in Bach and Buxtehude!

I was especially fond of the deeply felt passion mood in the BWV 544, which he registrates with dark 16´ manual foundation stop. The Schübler chorales are nice, while the BWV 565 did not get me that much.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 14, 2011, 12:55:54 PM
I will have to wait for probably another week or so until it arrives, but I managed to grab this issue from the net for a decent price:

(http://i53.tinypic.com/ayplid.jpg)

Harald Vogel on the Ahrend organ of the San Simpliciano Basilica, Milano. First Volume of an integral for Deutsche Harmonia Mundi. I have some other stuff from this (unfinished?) series (with Lorenzo Ghielmi and Jean-Claude Zehnder), which is quite good. I appreciate Harald Vogel's Buxtehude very much, so .... just hoping for the best! :)

And .... after that, I also ordered this one from the library: Michael Radulescu, Volume 2.

(http://i54.tinypic.com/2a5wuvc.jpg)

Is there some connaisseur around who can assure me that I made some good and interesting choices? :)
I need some comfort and organistic inspired cuddling, you knöw, 'cause I have the flu, which will make me have to skip tomorrow evening's concert by Wim van Beek. :'(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 15, 2011, 06:41:57 AM
Quote from: Marc on June 14, 2011, 12:55:54 PM

(http://i53.tinypic.com/ayplid.jpg)

Harald Vogel on the Ahrend organ of the San Simpliciano Basilica, Milano.  I appreciate Harald Vogel's Buxtehude very much, so .... just hoping for the best! :)

This is a recording I do not own, and I have deliberately avoided it, because I find it academic and uninspiring. Sorry.

Quote from: Marc
And .... after that, I also ordered this one from the library: Michael Radulescu, Volume 2.

(http://i54.tinypic.com/2a5wuvc.jpg)

Is there some connaisseur around who can assure me that I made some good and interesting choices? :)
I need some comfort and organistic inspired cuddling, you knöw, 'cause I have the flu, which will make me have to skip tomorrow evening's concert by Wim van Beek. :'(

This I own but find it pale and dull. When the possibility came to acquire Radulescu´s Bach integral, I passed it by, mainly because of my impression of his Clavierübung III (and his Muffat: Apparatus Musico-Organisticus, which hasn´t convinced me either). Drink some tea with rhum to become fit to the concert with van Beek. He is an artist in quite another league.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 16, 2011, 04:33:30 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 15, 2011, 06:41:57 AM
This is a recording I do not own, and I have deliberately avoided it, because I find it academic and uninspiring.

Quote from: (: premont :)
This I own but find it pale and dull.

Thanks a bundle, Premont!
I feel much better now! :-*

Quote from: (: premont :)
Drink some tea with rhum to become fit to the concert with van Beek. He is an artist in quite another league.

I really couldn't: fever, soar throat, painful cough.
Not only a bore to me, but also for the other concert visitors. Luckilly I already know about Van Beek's top class organ playing: I heard him 3 times in the last 2 years. I'll have another go later this year. Other Martini plans this summer: Wolfgang Zerer, Harald Vogel, Jacques van Oortmerssen and Bernard Winsemius. The latter is organist of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam, and IMHO he's very good!

Btw, I already had a bite of Zerer two weeks ago, on the Hinsz organ of the Protestant Church in Uithuizermeeden. A lovely church on the south-west side of the village, with a beautiful organ. Acoustics were very dry and direct, but I got used to it very quickly. BWV 547 was played in typical Zerer style: very very inevetable, one just couldn't escape and didn't want to escape either .... gave me the shivers. Maybe I caught up with the flu that evening? ;)

(http://i55.tinypic.com/2eve1ki.jpg)

(http://i56.tinypic.com/2h4w1nn.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 18, 2011, 08:32:27 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 29, 2011, 01:26:03 PM
But the second best after living i Holland yourself  is to know someone, who does, and who cares for organ music. :)

Dutch and Danes are good friends for ages already, you know.
We have always been very willing to bring our cultural titbits to you.
But we never trusted your cooking! (2:08)

;D

http://www.youtube.com/v/SJlzBHBJvl4

Oh uhhh .... topic duty: going to listen to O Mensch, bewein dein' Sünde groß BWV 622.
Of course.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 18, 2011, 11:17:52 AM
Quote from: Marc on June 16, 2011, 04:33:30 AM
I really couldn't: fever, soar throat, painful cough.
I wish you a fast recovery.

Quote from: Marc
Not only a bore to me, but also for the other concert visitors. Luckilly I already know about Van Beek's top class organ playing: I heard him 3 times in the last 2 years. I'll have another go later this year. Other Martini plans this summer: Wolfgang Zerer, Harald Vogel, Jacques van Oortmerssen and Bernard Winsemius. The latter is organist of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam, and IMHO he's very good!

A pity that you had to stay at home, but if I had that much to look forward to in the course of the summer season, I would feel better already.

Quote from: Marc
.. was played in typical Zerer style: very very inevetable, one just couldn't escape and didn't want to escape either .... gave me the shivers. Maybe I caught up with the flu that evening? ;)

I do not know his playing style sufficiently well to comment this, but his playing must surely be infectious and influential.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 18, 2011, 11:30:41 AM
Quote from: Marc on June 18, 2011, 08:32:27 AM
Dutch and Danes are good friends for ages already, you know.

Yes, and our collaboration has been well organ-ized.  :)

Quote from: Marc
We have always been very willing to bring our cultural titbits to you.
But we never trusted your cooking! (2:08)

What about Dutch cooking? The only Dutch cooking I know is Sauce Hollandaise - if it is Dutch at all.




Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 18, 2011, 12:14:42 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 18, 2011, 11:17:52 AM[....] I wish you a fast recovery.

Thanks.
It's getting better!

Quote from: (: premont :) on June 18, 2011, 11:30:41 AM
[....] our collaboration has been well organ-ized. :)

What about Dutch cooking? The only Dutch cooking I know is Sauce Hollandaise - if it is Dutch at all.

Nope, it's French.
It was thought to be Dutch, because of the buttery character.

Dutch cooking?

:-X

Vi er kartoffel spisere.

(http://i51.tinypic.com/2irksye.jpg)

Er godt at spise kartofler og lytte til orgelmusik.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 18, 2011, 12:29:43 PM
Quote from: Marc on June 18, 2011, 12:14:42 PM
Thanks.
It's getting better!

Good to know. :)

Quote from: Marc
Vi er kartoffel spisere.

Er godt at spise kartofler og lytte til orgelmusik.

Vi er også kartoffelspisere. Gennemsnitligt får jeg kartofler  2 - 3 gange om ugen. Og det også selvom pastaretter og risretter har vundet betragteligt indpas de sidste mange år. Men jeg kan bedst lide kartofler. Min kone laver forresten en fortræffelig kartoffelmos.

Vi er vel også fælles med Holland om at spise en del ost.

Og orgelmusik til det hele. :)

I stedet for selv at Google dette, lader jeg dig gøre det. Det kommer der vist mere fornuft ud af.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 18, 2011, 12:30:42 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 18, 2011, 11:17:52 AM
I do not know his [Wolfgang Zerer] playing style sufficiently well to comment this, but his playing must surely be infectious and influential.

Found this ancient quote of yours truly:

Quote from: Marc on December 01, 2009, 12:21:12 PM
[....] listening to Wolfgang Zerer playing Ach was soll ich, Sünder, machen? at the Hinsz-organ of the Petruskerk in Leens, NL.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Organ-Influences-Buxtehude-Bachakademie/dp/B00004TKEI

Another disc that I don't regret having! (Though it's 'only' a copy from the library.)
I would describe his playing as being kinda severe in his interpretation, but also expressive when necessary and colourful in his registering.

In fact, this is a description that could also fit Bram Beekman, so this would mean that I should rate Zerer rather high. ;) I even dare say that in some of the non-liturgic works Zerer is more rhythmically convincing!

.... and recently being confirmed in this view during the Uithuizermeeden concert. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 18, 2011, 12:36:11 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 18, 2011, 12:29:43 PM
Good to know. :)

Vi er også kartoffelspisere. Gennemsnitligt får jeg kartofler  2 - 3 gange om ugen. Og det også selvom pastaretter og risretter har vundet betragteligt indpas de sidste mange år. Men jeg kan bedst lide kartofler. Min kone laver forresten en fortræffelig kartoffelmos.

Vi er vel også fælles med Holland om at spise en del ost.

Og orgelmusik til det hele. :)

I stedet for selv at Google dette, lader jeg dig gøre det. Det kommer der vist mere fornuft ud af.

Yeah, rice and pasta haven beaten the potaties here, too.
Let's order some Spaghetti bolognese then and await the arrival of a Milano Bach organ disc, played on a German instrument by another Kartoffelfresser. :P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 18, 2011, 12:40:40 PM
Quote from: Marc on June 18, 2011, 12:30:42 PM
Found this ancient quote of yours truly:

.... and recently being confirmed in this view during the Uithuizermeeden concert. :)

Yes there are these two Haenssler disc´s from Petruskerk, Leens and Martinikerk, Groningen (Orgelbüchlein). Other than that I own three Nacos disc´s from his hands (and feet): The complete Weckmann organ works (two discs) and one Scheidemann disc, the Naxos disc´s recorded in St. Jacobi, Hamburg.  Even I would describe his style as severe, but the Bach´s discs are not sufficiently representative IMO.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 18, 2011, 12:42:16 PM
Dutch organs and cheese are also very popular in our neighbour's country!
Combined with the drink of die Götter:

(http://i51.tinypic.com/erzaj8.jpg)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 18, 2011, 12:58:55 PM
Quote from: Marc on June 18, 2011, 12:42:16 PM
Dutch organs and cheese are also very popular in our neighbour's country!

Generally I think the fat content of Dutch cheese is too high. But I suppose that the share of fat cheese for export is relative high.
Does Holland like Denmark produce much cheese with low fat content.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 18, 2011, 01:07:13 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 18, 2011, 12:58:55 PM
Generally I think the fat content of Dutch cheese is too high.

That's why the Germans like it, I guess.
Bratwurst und Bier ist natürlich auch gut. Aber dann muß Frau Antje in Holland bleiben. Und das wäre ja schade.

Quote from: (: premont :)
But I suppose that the share of fat cheese for export is relative high.
Does Holland like Denmark produce much cheese with low fat content.

I must be honest: like many Dutchmen (and women .... sorry Stan, err Loretta) I haven't got much knowledge about food, its contents and its import and export stats ....
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 18, 2011, 01:15:26 PM
Quote from: Marc on June 18, 2011, 01:07:13 PM
I must be honest: like many Dutchmen (and women .... sorry Stan, err Loretta) I haven't got much knowledge about food, its contents and its import and export stats ....

Potentially life-threatening in the end.

Do not answer me, that even life itself is life-threatening in the end. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on June 18, 2011, 06:40:02 PM
Quote from: Marc on June 18, 2011, 12:14:42 PM
Nope, it's French.
It was thought to be Dutch, because of the buttery character.

The culinary result of a Frenchman misremembering something he'd eaten in Holland? . . .
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 22, 2011, 11:55:33 AM
Had another dazzling evening with Bach, Schnitger et al in the Groningen Martinikerk. A Bach-only program, played by Christiaan Ingelse, with a.o. all the 15 3-part Inventionen: lovely lovely lovely. Beautiful registration, and the E-minor & F-minor pieces (BWV's 793 & 795) made my eyes a little wet.
The concert was concluded by a firm interpretation of the famous G-minor Fantasia & Fugue BWV 542.

Heard Wim van Beek & Cor Edskes talking afterwards that the organist didn't have the possibility to practise on the instrument beforehand, which made their appreciation for his skills even greater.

Personally, I appreciated my first 'concert date' with organist Christiaan Ingelse that much, that I immediately bought 3 cd's .... oh my. :-[
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 02, 2011, 01:14:31 PM
Ordered the two attributions of Martin Lücker to the complete Hänssler Bachakademie Edition: Scales from Weimar and Late Works from the Leipzig Period.

Since I recalled some not-so-positive reviews about Lücker's recordings from around the Bach Year 2000 (in the Dutch magazine Luister a.o., which, in those days, still offered a certain amount of quality :P), I decided to turn to the library first.

Wait, I just found the review (magazine Luister of January 2000) .... in which Lücker is described as the weakest Hänssler link, compared to Johannsen, Marcon, Bryndorf and Zerer.
Despite the fact that he was a pupil of Leonhardt, Lücker's way of playing is described as being romantic, with too broad and slow tempi, old-fashioned legato playing and an excessive amount of registration changes and crescendi.

So, I've got some exciting listening in prospect!

Any opinions here on Lücker's Bach?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 03, 2011, 09:01:52 AM
Quote from: Marc on July 02, 2011, 01:14:31 PM
Ordered the two attributions of Martin Lücker to the complete Hänssler Bachakademie Edition: Scales from Weimar and Late Works from the Leipzig Period.

Wait, I just found the review (magazine Luister of January 2000) .... in which Lücker is described as the weakest Hänssler link, compared to Johannsen, Marcon, Bryndorf and Zerer.
Despite the fact that he was a pupil of Leonhardt, Lücker's way of playing is described as being romantic, with too broad and slow tempi, old-fashioned legato playing and an excessive amount of registration changes and crescendi.

Any opinions here on Lücker's Bach?

I have not listened to these two discs for ages, but listened through both to day. There are two problems: The chosen organ and Lückers playing.

The organ is a large (three manual/pedal - 55 stops) Rieger organ from 1990 (in St. Katrinenkirche, Frankfurt am Main). I think it was chosen because Lücker was resident organist there at the time of the recording (1998) - and still is AFAIK. Like many newbuilt German organs it has got a rather uncharming sound with some romantic flavour (compare with the large Rieger organ in the Ratzeburg Cathedral, which Peter Hurford uses for a number of the "great" chorale free works in his Bach set for Decca). Lücker´s registrations also tend to be romantic (e.g. his predilection for the 8´Gamba of the Schwellwerk) and we are in between presented for some strange un-Bachian sounds. And his frequent changes of registration is certainly very oldfashioned. But it is not true, that he uses oldfashioned legato playing. On the contrary his articulation is highly historically informed, as one would expect from a pupil of Anton Heiller and Gustav Leonhardt. Lücker´s tempi are most often dreadfully slow and his rhytm a bit stiff, and this lends his playing some pedestrian quality, which also lacks the authority of a Wolfgang Rübsam, even when he (Rübsam) is slowest. So you see, Lücker is not exactly my man.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on July 03, 2011, 09:42:33 AM
Very interesting, thank you.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on July 04, 2011, 10:19:54 AM
Quote from: Marc on July 02, 2011, 01:14:31 PM
Ordered the two attributions of Martin Lücker to the complete Hänssler Bachakademie Edition: Scales from Weimar and Late Works from the Leipzig Period.

Since I recalled some not-so-positive reviews about Lücker's recordings from around the Bach Year 2000 (in the Dutch magazine Luister a.o., which, in those days, still offered a certain amount of quality :P), I decided to turn to the library first.

Wait, I just found the review (magazine Luister of January 2000) .... in which Lücker is described as the weakest Hänssler link, compared to Johannsen, Marcon, Bryndorf and Zerer.
Despite the fact that he was a pupil of Leonhardt, Lücker's way of playing is described as being romantic, with too broad and slow tempi, old-fashioned legato playing and an excessive amount of registration changes and crescendi.

So, I've got some exciting listening in prospect!

Any opinions here on Lücker's Bach?

I found the "Scales from Weimar" a wonderful disc - great blend of muscle and poignancy.  However, the other disc was very disappointing; overbearing, too slow and turgid.  Still, I don't consider him the weak link in the Hanssler series - that honor goes to Johannsen.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 04, 2011, 10:30:44 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 03, 2011, 09:01:52 AM
I have not listened to these two discs for ages, but listened through both to day. There are two problems: The chosen organ and Lückers playing.

The organ is a large (three manual/pedal - 55 stops) Rieger organ from 1990 (in St. Katrinenkirche, Frankfurt am Main). I think it was chosen because Lücker was resident organist there at the time of the recording (1998) - and still is AFAIK. Like many newbuilt German organs it has got a rather uncharming sound with some romantic flavour (compare with the large Rieger organ in the Ratzeburg Cathedral, which Peter Hurford uses for a number of the "great" chorale free works in his Bach set for Decca). Lücker´s registrations also tend to be romantic (e.g. his predilection for the 8´Gamba of the Schwellwerk) and we are in between presented for some strange un-Bachian sounds. And his frequent changes of registration is certainly very oldfashioned. But it is not true, that he uses oldfashioned legato playing. On the contrary his articulation is highly historically informed, as one would expect from a pupil of Anton Heiller and Gustav Leonhardt. Lücker´s tempi are most often dreadfully slow and his rhytm a bit stiff, and this lends his playing some pedestrian quality, which also lacks the authority of a Wolfgang Rübsam, even when he (Rübsam) is slowest. So you see, Lücker is not exactly my man.

Quote from: Bulldog on July 04, 2011, 10:19:54 AM
I found the "Scales from Weimar" a wonderful disc - great blend of muscle and poignancy. However, the other disc was very disappointing; overbearing, too slow and turgid. Still, I don't consider him the weak link in the Hanssler series - that honor goes to Johannsen.

Thank you gentlemen for your votes. ;)
I'll just have to wait .... and listen to them myself, won't I?

Btw: the reviewer of that Luister magazine had not received all discs and boxes from the Brilliant, Teldec and Hänssler integrals, but he described Johannsen's articulation in the Trio Sonatas as very subtle, yet with a certain lack of colouring in his registrations.
This Trio Sonatas disc I don't have. I do have Kay Johannsen's Neumeister Choräle disc, which I think is OK, but also a bit 'lazy'.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on July 04, 2011, 01:03:17 PM
Quote from: Marc on July 04, 2011, 10:30:44 AM
Btw: the reviewer of that Luister magazine had not received all discs and boxes from the Brilliant, Teldec and Hänssler integrals, but he described Johannsen's articulation in the Trio Sonatas as very subtle, yet with a certain lack of colouring in his registrations.
This Trio Sonatas disc I don't have. I do have Kay Johannsen's Neumeister Choräle disc, which I think is OK, but also a bit 'lazy'.

In the Trio Sonatas disc, I consider Johannsen's performances quite heavy and slow with inadequate vibrancy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 11, 2011, 10:43:18 AM
Whilst listening to Lücker, two words came to my mind: guarded and withdrawing. That's how I would describe his playing in general .... not really my Bach, and this also goes for all the register changes.

I agree with Premont about the lack of charm of this bold Rieger organ. On my (modest) hifi set, the basses sounded extremely heavy.

But I could not say (yet?) that I prefer the Weimar disc to the Leipzig one. In a way, the heavy sound of the organ even seems to fit the mature pieces better. The Fantasia in C-minor BWV 562 f.i. begins impressive, but Lücker doesn't seem to be able to maintain the tension. The Fugue is OK again .... a pity that Lücker does not offer us a completion, like Wolfgang Stockmeier did (though playing this piece too fast IMO).
To me, the slow tempi make the 'doubtful' 8 Little Preludes & Fugues BWV 553-560 rather difficult to digest. And where's the mild melancholy in my fave (E-minor) piece BWV 555? The fugue sounds like a depressive funeral interlude ....
On the other hand, despite the rather overbearing change of registers, I liked Lücker's performance of the B-minor Fugue BWV 579.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on July 11, 2011, 01:16:00 PM
Quote from: Marc on July 11, 2011, 10:43:18 AM
Whilst listening to Lücker, two words came to my mind: guarded and withdrawing. That's how I would describe his playing in general .... not really my Bach, and this also goes for all the register changes.

In my review of the "Weimar" disc, I described his playing as majestic and growling with the juices of life.  Were we listening to the same guy?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 11, 2011, 07:50:20 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on July 11, 2011, 01:16:00 PM
In my review of the "Weimar" disc, I described his playing as majestic and growling with the juices of life. Were we listening to the same guy?

Well, it says 'Martin Lücker' here; on cover, in booklet and on disc ....  ;D

Apparantly we share a love for the music of Bach, but, in some cases, we don't share preferences how to perform it.
Not a real problem to me, btw. The world would be boring without differences.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 01, 2011, 10:35:32 AM
Quote from: DavidW on May 24, 2011, 06:58:55 AM
Marc, why don't you simply pm or email the links to your friends that you want to have it? Easy enough.

I uploaded one of my fave BWV 565 performances, played by Jan Jongepier, who died yesterday, at the Christian Müller organ of the Grote Kerk (Jacobijnerkerk) in Leeuwarden, NL.

Then I selected some organ friends, well, I found out I had to send it to almost 20 members. :P

So, here I go again, running the risk of getting punished severely :-[.

I'm presenting at this forum a Bach performance by the late Jan Jongepier. A recording which is not officially available anymore, since it was part of a disc that was meant only to gain money for the Grote Kerk church restauration many years ago and is now OOP for a long time. I myself was so lucky to get a 2nd hand copy last year.

For the sake of whatever: Toccata & Fugue in D-minor, BWV 565. Jan Jongepier, organ. Enjoy!

http://www.mediafire.com/?wthhki0daxdrewu
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 07, 2011, 11:27:39 AM
Some pages ago there was some discussion about what (Marie-Claire integral) to purchase: Alain 2 or Alain 3?

Alain 2 got more votes, including mine.

And whilst I still agree, I must say that, for the last weeks, I've been enjoying Alain 3 tremendously. Now listening to the final fugue of the Toccata in C BWV 566(a) on the large Silbermann organ of Freiberg, and it's sounding magnificent. This piece surely can endure some gravity!

All in all, this set is a bit more laid-back than 2, yes it's true, but Alain handles these historic instruments very well for sure. I certainly don't regret the purchase.
A pity that she didn't include the Neumeister chorales, because her Orgelbüchlein attributions are quite good, too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 11, 2011, 12:22:33 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 12, 2011, 11:06:32 AM
Koopman is very good IMHO (Teldec, see above for the boxset), and so are his compatriots Bram Beekman (Lindenberg) and Ewald Kooiman (Coronata), but .... alas OOP.
Another Dutchman, Leo van Doeselaar, recorded the 'grand chorales' (Große Orgelmesse) in a convincing way for Channel Classics, combined with sung chorales and choir pieces by (mostly) 16th/17th century composers. An interesting issue and still available AFAIK.
I also liked the smaller chorales (Kleine Orgelmesse) played by Gerhard Weinberger for his integral (CPO).

OOP, but still available at some online marketplaces: the two volumes by Edgar Krapp, which he recorded for Berlin Classics. My advice would be: get them, before they are out of stock.
Here are some possibilities:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Clavier-Ubung-Praludium-Grosse-Choralbearbeitungen/dp/B000006LIZ/
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000026HRE/

But you know, there are so many great recordings of these pieces. Even Simon Preston, who isn't my fave Bach interpreter, delivers great stuff on the historic organ of Trondheim (DG).
Right now it's very difficult, if not impossible, to pick my 'personal landmark recording(s)'. But there are some recordings that I really would not recommend, f.i. Kei Koito (Harmonic Records) and a disappointing shallow one by Masaaki Suzuki (BIS). (Although I do like Suzuki in Bach's vocal and harpsichord compositions, though.)

Probably Premont, Que, Antoine, Bulldog and others have some more (and better) interesting ideas about great performances of this my very favourite Bach collection of organ works. Man, do I love this third part of the CU! :-*

Edgar Krapp is going down very well. I only got Vol.1 but I'm about to buy the other one.  I think he's astonishingly good in the slower preludes at the start, like BWV 671. I like the sound of the organ very much. Thanks for the recommendation.

You know, I've never been to an organ concert. Is there anyone from London reading this who can help me -- how do I find out about who's playing where? Which are the good organs here?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 11, 2011, 12:32:07 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 11, 2011, 12:22:33 PM
Edgar Krapp is going down very well. I only got Vol.1 but I'm about to buy the other one.  I think he's astonishingly good in the slower preludes at the start, like BWV 671. I like the sound of the organ very much. Thanks for the recommendation.

You're welcome! :)

Quote from: Mandryka on August 11, 2011, 12:22:33 PM
You know, I've never been to an organ concert. Is there anyone from London reading this who can help me -- how do I find out about who's playing where? Which are the good organs here?

London, England? ;)

Maybe this site has some good suggestions:

http://www.londonorgan.co.uk/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 13, 2011, 09:52:40 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2011, 02:10:25 PM
No, I'm fixing a more happy ending to this day:

BWV 593, borrowed from the Red Priest, played by La Grande Dame de l'Orgue:

(http://i52.tinypic.com/34xmkya.jpg)

I have most of Marie-Claire Alain cycle 2 on singles released on Erato ...   ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 13, 2011, 03:11:56 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2011, 02:10:25 PM
No, I'm fixing a more happy ending to this day:

BWV 593, borrowed from the Red Priest, played by La Grande Dame de l'Orgue:

(http://i52.tinypic.com/34xmkya.jpg)

Quote from: Coopmv on August 13, 2011, 09:52:40 AM
I have most of Marie-Claire Alain cycle 2 on singles released on Erato ...   ;)

But this particular disc isn't part of any cycle. The 2nd integral was from the anolog area.
This one is a digital 1983 production. Alain made at least 4 digital Bach organ recordings in the eighties, before turning to historical instruments for her 3rd integral.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on September 01, 2011, 07:05:40 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 12, 2011, 11:22:30 AM
Make sure it's this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Organ-Works-Marie-Claire-Alain/dp/B000RZOR2K/ (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Organ-Works-Marie-Claire-Alain/dp/B000RZOR2K/)

Thanking you again on this, Marc, as I've now gone and pulled the trigger on it : )
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 02, 2011, 12:45:45 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 01, 2011, 07:05:40 AM
Thanking you again on this, Marc, as I've now gone and pulled the trigger on it : )

Karl, you're welcome!
And if you have something on your sleeves about La Grande Dame des Orgues, don't hesitate to tell us. :)
I would certainly be interested to read it.

This is actually a secret, but you know what:
Bach's working organ happens to be one of my favourite threads.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on September 08, 2011, 05:17:23 AM
Anybody keen on having a particular question answered by Sir Simon Preston and/or Martin Haselböck ?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 08, 2011, 08:12:36 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 08, 2011, 05:17:23 AM
Anybody keen on having a particular question answered by Sir Simon Preston and/or Martin Haselböck ?

I'm a bit hesisant with this, cause it's kinda silly question but .... this one has puzzled me since I bought the boxset: why did Sir Simon Preston not include BWV 668(a) in his Bach organ integral? It's a beautiful chorale, and one of Bach's best-known.
(Of course we could also ask: why no Neumeister Chorales, but .... one question is more than enough, I think. :))
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on September 08, 2011, 10:44:14 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 08, 2011, 08:12:36 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 08, 2011, 05:17:23 AM
Anybody keen on having a particular question answered by Sir Simon Preston and/or Martin Haselböck ?
I'm a bit hesisant with this, cause it's kinda silly question but .... this one has puzzled me since I bought the boxset: why did Sir Simon Preston not include BWV 668(a) in his Bach organ integral? It's a beautiful chorale, and one of Bach's best-known.
(Of course we could also ask: why no Neumeister Chorales, but .... one question is more than enough, I think. :))

I think I can squeeze as many questions in as you could possibly have.
Re: BWV 668 I would hazard a guess, before getting his answer (if he still remembers such decisions, that is): Because it's a.) incomplete and b.) a reworking of BWV 641?

"BWV 653 & 668 – These are two of Bach's collection of eighteen chorale preludes known as the Leipzig Chorales. Actually, they were conceived during Bach's years at Weimar and later revised toward the end of his life. Also, the last piece, BWV 668, was never intended to be part of the cycle and was left incomplete after the first 26 bars."

How do 668 and 668(a) differ, by the way?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 09, 2011, 02:20:12 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 08, 2011, 10:44:14 PM
I think I can squeeze as many questions in as you could possibly have.
Re: BWV 668 I would hazard a guess, before getting his answer (if he still remembers such decisions, that is): Because it's a.) incomplete and b.) a reworking of BWV 641?

"BWV 653 & 668 – These are two of Bach's collection of eighteen chorale preludes known as the Leipzig Chorales. Actually, they were conceived during Bach's years at Weimar and later revised toward the end of his life. Also, the last piece, BWV 668, was never intended to be part of the cycle and was left incomplete after the first 26 bars."

How do 668 and 668(a) differ, by the way?

Jens, here's a short reaction (I'm at work): I could guess some answers, too, but I'm just curious about Preston's answers.

About the difference between the two versions: maybe this link could be helpful.

http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/samples/cam033/2001052620.pdf
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on September 09, 2011, 03:39:12 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 09, 2011, 02:20:12 AM
Jens, here's a short reaction (I'm at work): I could guess some answers, too, but I'm just curious about Preston's answers.

About the difference between the two versions: maybe this link could be helpful.

http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/samples/cam033/2001052620.pdf

Thanks much for the link!

His answer was a little fuzzy... Peter Williams, he suggested, was insistent on not including it. Preston thought Williams suggested that because it's apocryphal Bach but more likely Williams objected because of the above-mentioned status.

Wonderfully down-to earth chap, Sir Simon is... one of the more pleasant encounters in the business.

The Neumeister exclusion was more  DG-decision, though... DG wanting the "core organ works", not the complete-complete thing. SSP: "Which is is rather a nice thing, actually"
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on September 09, 2011, 07:06:06 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 09, 2011, 03:39:12 AM
Thanks much for the link!

Ditto.

Quote
His answer was a little fuzzy... Peter Williams, he suggested, was insistent on not including it. Preston thought Williams suggested that because it's apocryphal Bach but more likely Williams objected because of the above-mentioned status.

Wonderfully down-to earth chap, Sir Simon is... one of the more pleasant encounters in the business.

The Neumeister exclusion was more  DG-decision, though... DG wanting the "core organ works", not the complete-complete thing. SSP: "Which is is rather a nice thing, actually"

Jens, can we expect the interview (assuming it was one) to be up online in the future?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 09, 2011, 07:09:15 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 09, 2011, 03:39:12 AM
DG wanting the "core organ works", not the complete-complete thing. SSP: "Which is is rather a nice thing, actually"

Makes nice sense. Actually he also ( in the course of the Bach recordings for DG ) recorded the spurious (?) Eight small preludes and fugues BWV 553 - 560, but even if the recordings are relative good, they were not included in the box-set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 09, 2011, 08:28:05 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 09, 2011, 03:39:12 AM
Thanks much for the link!

His answer was a little fuzzy... Peter Williams, he suggested, was insistent on not including it. Preston thought Williams suggested that because it's apocryphal Bach but more likely Williams objected because of the above-mentioned status.

Wonderfully down-to earth chap, Sir Simon is... one of the more pleasant encounters in the business.

The Neumeister exclusion was more  DG-decision, though... DG wanting the "core organ works", not the complete-complete thing. SSP: "Which is is rather a nice thing, actually"

Thanks for the questions & answers!

Quote from: Opus106 on September 09, 2011, 07:06:06 AM
Jens, can we expect the interview (assuming it was one) to be up online in the future?

That would be nice indeed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 09, 2011, 11:59:40 PM
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2vnrxxg.jpg)

Funny though, in the booklet it says Eighteen Chorales of Diverse Kinds .... yet Preston delivers seventeen. I want my money back! :P

It's fuzzy indeed, DG's and/or Williams's definition of 'core organ works': if the set f.i. offers both 'core organ works' BWV 620 and 620a of the Orgel-Büchlein (yet no BWV 634 ???), then IMHO, BWV 668 definitely belongs to the 'Leipzig' collection. It's a gem.

But my friends, let's not mourn about this for long, because, AFAIK, other organists did make a recording of it. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on September 10, 2011, 02:50:31 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 09, 2011, 07:06:06 AM
Ditto.

Jens, can we expect the interview (assuming it was one) to be up online in the future?

Well, it was a long morning chat conducted under the pretense of being an interview. But eventually it will make it into proper form and presumably online. Probably not before Q1 2012.
There are a few gems in it so: "Young organists sometimes semi-jokingly ask me: "when will you (finally) quit. You're in the way." What are you looking at me for? Go ask Dame Gillian..."
Or the fact that he has a quasi-family relation to Joseph Jongen, a wonderful composer of string quartets and organ works, both solo and concerto (one).
On the pleasures of recording: "Every three months I get a royalties check which pays for all the gin & tonics. Or bottles of wine, actually. Not consumed all at once, of course."

Quote from: Marc on September 09, 2011, 11:59:40 PM

(http://i56.tinypic.com/2vnrxxg.jpg)

Funny though, in the booklet it says Eighteen Chorales of Diverse Kinds .... yet Preston delivers seventeen. I want my money back! :P

Do you like the set enough to suggest it's worth adding to a fairly extensive collection of Bach's organ works?
How are the liner notes in this one? (Which might determine the difference between getting a used copy of this and a new one of the budget-re-issue.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on September 10, 2011, 03:00:10 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 10, 2011, 02:50:31 AM
Well, it was a long morning chat conducted under the pretense of being an interview. But eventually it will make it into proper form and presumably online. Probably not before Q1 2012.
There are a few gems in it so: "Young organists sometimes semi-jokingly ask me: "when will you (finally) quit. You're in the way." What are you looking at me for? Go ask Dame Gillian..."
Or the fact that he has a quasi-family relation to Joseph Jongen, a wonderful composer of string quartets and organ works, both solo and concerto (one).
On the pleasures of recording: "Every three months I get a royalties check which pays for all the gin & tonics. Or bottles of wine, actually. Not consumed all at once, of course."

Ha! I'll look forward to it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 10, 2011, 11:05:43 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 10, 2011, 02:50:31 AM
[about Preston/Bach]
Do you like the set enough to suggest it's worth adding to a fairly extensive collection of Bach's organ works?
How are the liner notes in this one? (Which might determine the difference between getting a used copy of this and a new one of the budget-re-issue.

He doesn't make it into my Top 10, I'm sorry to say.

Here are some earlier comments:

Quote from: Marc on January 24, 2011, 10:46:23 PM
About Preston: he's definitely not my fave in the 'free' works. But he offers some great things in the chorales and the Trio Sonatas, IMO.

Quote from: Marc on May 11, 2011, 11:30:11 AM
Personally, Preston is too superficial to me, and sometimes even annoying. It feels like he's dancing on a nail bed, especially in many non-liturgical works, with the exception btw of the Trio Sonatas.
The best part of his set is m.i. the so-called Orgelmesse, played on the wonderful Joachim Wagner organ (1739-1741) in Trondheim Cathedral, Norway. In general, I have the feeling that as soon as the Almighty, his Son and/or the Holy Ghost are part of a piece, Preston seems to get more inspired. There is also some good stuff in the Orgelbüchlein and the Leipzig Choräle. Pity he did not include BWV 668: 'Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit'.

About the liner notes: they are written by Malcolm Boyd. Not too bad or too short, considering it's a boxset, but still rather general. The nice bonus is .... guess what .... a short interview with Sir Simon. ;)

Dunno about the contents of the cheaper re-issue's booklet.

Probably my fave Bach/Preston recording is the BWV 243a Magnificat he did in the late seventies with the Choir of Christ Church Cathedral Oxhord & The Academy of Ancient Music .... but actually, that's another chapter/thread. :)

(http://i56.tinypic.com/2uh08du.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Magnificat-Vivaldi-Dominus/dp/B00000135F/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 10, 2011, 01:05:08 PM
For those who like Michel Chapuis in Bach, there's an interesting re-issue at hand, scheduled for release in October 2011:

(http://i53.tinypic.com/219ym9w.jpg)

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/United%2BArchives/NUA05

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 10, 2011, 02:26:35 PM
In my book Chapuis and his strange registrations and nervous, sloppy playing ranks lower than Preston, actually close to the bottom. The only advantage in my ears is the Danish organs he uses (a bit chauvinistic, I know).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on September 10, 2011, 03:12:07 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 11, 2011, 11:30:11 AM
In general, I have the feeling that as soon as the Almighty, his Son and/or the Holy Ghost are part of a piece, Preston seems to get more inspired.

Ironically, he's an atheist.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on September 10, 2011, 06:21:36 PM
I have the budget reissue of the Preston.  The liner notes consist of a three page essay which is essentially a introductory lesson for people not very familiar with Bach's organ works, and an index of titles that cross references to BWV number and CD/track number for the individual piece.  The recording itself is organized essentially by BWV number, starting with the Trio Sonatas on CD 1 and on through the Canonic Variations on Von Himmel Hoch as the last piece of the set.  The only exception is Clavier Ubung III, which is presented as a unit.

Since it's my only complete set of the organ works, I obviously can't compare it to any other integral.  I do have six CDs worth of Rogg, and in general I find Preston is as good as, and often better, than Rogg where I can compare them (particularly in the concertos).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on September 14, 2011, 03:03:17 AM
Got myself a set anyway... after all, I promised to contribute to Preston's Royalty ("Gin & Tonic") checks.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004Y28Q.01.L.jpg)
J.S. Bach, The (core) Organ Works
(Sir) Simon Preston
DG - 14 CDs
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Y28Q/seenandheard-20)

Not that I paid the silly price for it that used copies go for on Amazon.com...
Amazon.de has used copies (mine was/is absolutely like new) of the original edition (which is prettier and has the slightly better booklet, with pictures of all the organs) for 14 Euros. (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00004Y28Q/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B00004Y28Q)  Looks like the budget re-issue has had its market push-down effect.  Which I suppose makes my contribution to his imbibement rather indirect... but at that price I didn't (and could allow myself not to) care if it wasn't going to be the best set in my collection. And I really did want to have his Toccata & Fugue & BWV582. Not Bach the former, yes yes, but played on the smallish Klais-built Kreizberg Church Concert Organ (http://konzertorgel) (Bonn)

Can the collective forces here help complete a survey of all the more or less complete Bach Organ sets?
The idea is to list

[Artist], [number of cycle (where it applies)] -- [original label], [label it is available on now], [number of CDs in the set (if it is CDs)], [organ/s if known, distinguishing fact], [alternative available releases]

Here's my start, more or less OTOMH:


Marie-Claire Alain I - ??
Marie-Claire Alain II – Erato / Warner, ADD (http://www.novoproperty.com/images/icons/check-mark-icon.png)
Marie-Claire Alain III – Erato / Warner, 14CDs, DDD, historic instruments

Lionel Rogg I – EMI, LP only Oryx / Bach Recordings?
Lionel Rogg II – Harmonia Mundi, 12CDs, Arlesheim Silbermann Organ, (http://www.novoproperty.com/images/icons/check-mark-icon.png)
Lionel Rogg III – ??

Wolfgang Rübsam I – Philips, 16CDs
Wolfgang Rübsam II – Naxos,

Chapuis -- Valois (United Archives), 14CDs

Olivier Vernet - Ligia Digital, 19CDs, incl. transcriptions & a recital disc. (http://www.novoproperty.com/images/icons/check-mark-icon.png)

Koopman I – Novalis, incomplete?
Koopman II – Telarc / Warner, including sung chorales coupled with choral preludes (http://www.novoproperty.com/images/icons/check-mark-icon.png)

Preston – DG, 14CDs (http://www.novoproperty.com/images/icons/check-mark-icon.png)

Walcha I – Archiv, 10 CDs, mono, incomplete (http://www.novoproperty.com/images/icons/check-mark-icon.png)
Walcha II – Archiv, 12 CDs, stereo, 1957-71 (http://www.novoproperty.com/images/icons/check-mark-icon.png)

Wolfgang Stockmeier, Arts & Music, 20 CDs (http://www.novoproperty.com/images/icons/check-mark-icon.png)

Bernard Foccroulle – Ricercar, 16CDs

Silbermann Cycle – Berlin Classics, 15CDs, 10 organists, 12 Silbermann organs   

Gerhard Weinberger – cpo, 22 CDs, complete-complete, including all apocryphal works (http://www.novoproperty.com/images/icons/check-mark-icon.png)

Bowyer – Nimbus, 17CDs, also as 8MP3 discs, Marcussen organ of the Sankt Hans Kirke, Odense

Andre Isoir – Calliope, XXCDs,

Peter Huford – Decca, 17 CDs

Bernard Lagacé – Analekta, 22CDs, including non-keyboard works played on the organ

Alessio Corti – Antes, 17 CDs, DDD

Knud Vad – Membran, 18 SACDs,

Walter Kraft – Musical Concepts, 12 CDs,

Fagius – BIS / Brilliant, XXCDs, also as a 5 non-hybrid, non-HR SACD (http://www.novoproperty.com/images/icons/check-mark-icon.png)

George Ritchie – Raven Recordings, 11 CDs,

Jean Guillou – Sono Luminus, 6CDs, incomplete + Goldberg Variations, Kleuer organ, Eglise Notre-Dame des Neiges at l'Alpe d'Huez, Kleuker-Steinmeyer organ, Tonhalle in Zurich
[isn't he a hack/fraud?]

Hänssler collection - 13CDs?? Johannsen, Bryndorf, Lücker

Christopher Herrick – Hyperion, 16CDs,
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 14, 2011, 06:57:56 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 14, 2011, 03:03:17 AM
Can the collective forces here help complete a survey of all the more or less complete Bach Organ sets?
The idea is to list

[Artist], [number of cycle (where it applies)] -- [original label], [label it is available on now], [number of CDs in the set (if it is CDs)], [organ/s if known, distinguishing fact], [alternative available releases]

An afternoon at Premont's home would respond almost all your questions.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: PaulSC on September 14, 2011, 08:00:54 AM
I'll contribute the two that I own:

Werner Jacob -- EMI 16 CDs
James Kibbie -- free download from http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 14, 2011, 08:40:13 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 14, 2011, 06:57:56 AM
An afternoon at Premont's home would respond almost all your questions.  :)

You may be right. At least I own all the ones Jens mentions except Alain I (Erato, 25 LP´s Danish neobaroque organs 1959 - ca 1966) and Guillou´s incomplete Dorian set, which I discarded - yes, because he is a fraud. There is another recent and more complete Guillou set, which doesn´t interest me the least.

Other than that I own a handful of sets which Jens doesn´t mention, among which are my favorite Kooiman II.

There  are even a few sets which I haven´t been able to get hold of (Anton Heiller Philips LP early 1950es - never seen on CD and Michael Radulescu on a small French label, the name of which I do not recall from the top of my head).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 14, 2011, 11:07:20 AM
Jens, check out this link:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/Organ-Complete.htm

There are some little mistakes or missing updates on this page. For instance: David Sanger won't complete his 'in progress' set, because he died in 2010.

And I know that there are some Dutch organists doing another complete Bach, yet on very small local labels. (Pity.)
Like Eric Koevoets, who's working on a live integral (like Knud Vad) and Cor Ardesch, a former pupil of Piet Kee, who's working on a fine (IMO so far) integral.

These are the boxsets I own (so far). Apart from Fagius I collected them all from spring 2009 .... I know, I'm a monomaniac lunatic. ;D

To begin with: a very interesting boxset with recordings from the 60s (more or less), by several organists on (mostly) non-restored Silbermann organs (Berlin Classics)
Alain II
Alain III
Beekman
Bowyer
Corti
Fagius
Foccroulle
Hurford
Isoir
Jacob
Kibbie
Kooiman 2 (Coronata)
Koopman
Kraft
Preston
Ritchie
Rogg 2
Rübsam (Philips)
Rübsam (Naxos)
Stockmeier
Vad
Vernet
Walcha (mono)
Walcha (stereo)
Weinberger

Plus: slowly collecting Ardesch (as mentioned), Herrick and Van Oortmerssen.
Plus: some of the volumes of the Hänssler set.
Plus: 14 discs of an unfinished integral by Piet Wiersma, who died just hours after recording a heartfelt performance of BWV 562 (only the Fantasia). If I remember well, I uploaded it somewhere in this thread.

I know it's ridiculous, this collecting madness, and maybe I will slow down the upcoming years. :P

If I had to sell them because of total poverty, I would try to keep at least these 5 sets: Beekman, Kooiman 2, Alain 2, Corti and Foccroulle. With apologies to all the others, because there are gems in each and every integral. And there are also many gems to find with the non-integral performers. Some of those were mentioned in the first post of this thread by a certain mr. .... Premont. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on September 14, 2011, 02:45:36 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 14, 2011, 11:07:20 AM
Jens, check out this link:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/Organ-Complete.htm

Perfect!


Quote
Rübsam (Philips)
Rübsam (Naxos)

If I had to sell them because of total poverty, I would try to keep at least these 5 sets: Beekman, Kooiman 2, Alain 2, Corti and Foccroulle.
[/quote]

Premont, you:

Comments on Ruebsam -- Philips vs. Naxos? In-and-of-itself?


Beekman & Kooiman 2 are local Dutch stuff, not available as sets, nor via the standard sellers... either hard or impossible to get... correct? I wonder whoever has the rights to these labels and whether they merited being brought out as a set on a 'proper', good record label. I'm sure something could be worked in that direction, if the masters are free to have.
What makes Corti & Foccroulle so good?
I actually like Rogg II. But favorites are Alain II, Walcha II, Koopman II.

Vernet, which I've listened to again over the last few days (inspired, of sorts, by the ARD Organ competition): I don't actually like in the first few CDs... but he does come around on a few discs. The other one I'm listening to is the just-acquired Preston, which has highlights among the non-Bach Toccata & Fugue and the Passacaglia... but otherwise is unvaried and not yet an eye-brow raiser. I like Bowyer's Organ Mass, but not much of the rest... Weinberger and Stockmeier have their moments, but are dry and academic more often than not. Don't remember much of Fagius. Alain III is on the list, Hurford I've enjoyed the "Greatest Hits" in a superficial sort of way... and I have a few
What I have of Isoir--except the Art of the Fugue, which I love--didn't make me seek out the whole shabang.
The Clavierübung Chorales with Christopher Herrick is also fuzzy in the memory... I see he's "missing" from your peversely comprehensive list (even if it doesn't match premont's). Any reason, other than it being OOP now and probably still expensive in 2009?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on September 14, 2011, 07:31:59 PM
Why is Guillou (of whom, I confess, I have never heard before today's posts) a fraud?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 15, 2011, 03:16:13 AM
Jens, a short reaction first. I'm at work right now.

If you search the thread (I know the search function here isn't the most helpful, though), then you will find a lot of your questions answered. Premont, Bulldog, Que and a lot of other members have mentioned some favourites including argumentation.

And you know what: it's good fun reading this thread! But of course I'm prejudiced. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on September 15, 2011, 03:23:08 AM
What's this I read in the booklet for the Erato Marie-Claire Alain set — is it true that the d minor Toccata & Fugue is "likely spurious"? Or is that Rob-Newman-wannabe chat?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 15, 2011, 04:23:47 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toccata_and_Fugue_in_D_minor,_BWV_565
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on September 15, 2011, 04:40:31 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 15, 2011, 04:23:47 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toccata_and_Fugue_in_D_minor,_BWV_565 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toccata_and_Fugue_in_D_minor,_BWV_565)

Thanks, most interesting! If it should be spurious (doesn't sound as if the matter could really be proven, even though there's a pile-up in favor of the contestment) . . . how ironic! Since to some degree the general popularization of Bach can be argued to stem from Stokowski's orchestratiobn of "faux Bach" for Disney's Fantasia, eh? . . .

. . . and it could be argued that the popularization of Bach is one of the important drivers behind what eventually became the HIP movement, do you think? . . .
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 15, 2011, 04:51:32 AM
It's interesting to consider the position of some people who thinks the Toccata and fugue was originally a piece for solo violin. This is, for instance, the "reconstruction" by Andrew Manze:

http://youtu.be/aNfox7ORW1Q

:)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on September 15, 2011, 04:58:06 AM
Aye, I noted that in the Wikipedia article.  I applaud the creativity, in any event!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on September 15, 2011, 06:04:48 AM
I thought that issue of the work's authorship was well known.

Anyway, an aside: there are a couple of moments in 565 that make me thing of Italian concerti of the time, especially Vivaldi, with the call-and-response bits in the fugue. Not that I offer it as evidence for or against any statement... just thought I would put it "out there".

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on September 15, 2011, 06:08:22 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 15, 2011, 06:04:48 AM
I thought that issue of the work's authorship was well known.

It probably has been. Still, apparently not the sort of thing I knew until this week.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 15, 2011, 06:28:51 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 15, 2011, 04:58:06 AM
Aye, I noted that in the Wikipedia article.  I applaud the creativity, in any event!

I hope tonight I will find some time to copy the interesting notes written by Manze to "justify" this "reconstruction". Although his artistic decisions are frequently a bit controversial, Manze always explains brilliantly those decisions.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on September 15, 2011, 07:15:14 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 15, 2011, 06:08:22 AM
It probably has been. Still, apparently not the sort of thing I knew until this week.

The attribution question is interesting, but doesn't convince me.  It could be equally explained as the work of a young composer trying out stylistic elements he decided did not work well, and therefore never used again.  And it also assumes that Johann Sebastian Bach did not need a "learning curve" to get to the supreme level of compositional ability he did attain. 

I have heard another theory (don't remember where, so I can't give a source for it) that Bach wrote it as a demonstration piece, either to tryout a new organ, or to show off his own abilities when applying for a new position as organist, and that's why it sounds something like a bravura piece.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on September 15, 2011, 07:29:32 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 15, 2011, 07:15:14 AM
The attribution question is interesting, but doesn't convince me.  It could be equally explained as the work of a young composer trying out stylistic elements he decided did not work well, and therefore never used again.  And it also assumes that Johann Sebastian Bach did not need a "learning curve" to get to the supreme level of compositional ability he did attain. 

I have heard another theory (don't remember where, so I can't give a source for it) that Bach wrote it as a demonstration piece, either to tryout a new organ, or to show off his own abilities when applying for a new position as organist, and that's why it sounds something like a bravura piece.

That all strikes me as plausible.

I think in particular of the differences between the ricercars (a 3 and a 6) in The Musical Offering.  The six-voice counterpoint is much tauter, polished, one might even call it airtight . . . and it was composed at leisure, showing the composer at his best.  The three-voice ricercar is (IIRC) more or less a document of the composer's extamporaneous treatment of Il tema reale when invited by Frederick to improvise a fugue.  If we did not have the anchoring documentation which fixes it so clearly in time and attribution, I could imagine a situation in which scholars "contest" its authenticity . . . a piece which it is impossible to imagine Bach writing so late in life, at the very height of his powers.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 15, 2011, 02:21:09 PM
IMO there is no weighty reason to believe that BWV 565 with its obvious violinistic writing did not originate in a piece for violin solo. And that J S Bach made the arrangement for organ seems credible. He used to rework the musical texture rather much, compare with the concerto BWV 1052, which obviously also originated in a violin concerto. Concerning the identity of the composer who wrote the violin piece which became BWV 565, I tend to think that it was Bach himself. Among all the early- , high- and late baroque music I have listened to and/or seen the score of, I have never met another composer, who might have written a piece so brilliant and dramatic and yet so simple - the result of a true touch of genius. I think the violin piece may have been written under the influence of Johann Paul von Westhoff during Bach´s first short stay in Weimar (1703). Shortly afterwards, maybe in Arnstadt, Bach may have arranged the work for organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 15, 2011, 06:25:00 PM
Too lazy to sift through the thread's 68 pages... Any one familiar with the Hans Fagius integral (BIS) ? I got myself its volume 2 (half of the whole thing I presume, as it fills 9 discs). My current favourite in style, sound and overall interpretive POV is Olivier Vernet on Ligia.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 15, 2011, 08:36:52 PM
Quote from: André on September 15, 2011, 06:25:00 PM
Too lazy to sift through the thread's 68 pages... Any one familiar with the Hans Fagius integral (BIS) ? I got myself its volume 2 (half of the whole thing I presume, as it fills 9 discs). My current favourite in style, sound and overall interpretive POV is Olivier Vernet on Ligia.

Since Fagius's set was/is part of the budget-priced Brilliant Classics Complete Bach Edition, I assume that many people are familiar with him. And yes, he's been mentioned before. ;)
My own opinion, briefly: I like him, because he's part of the 'no nonsense' family. Certainly not a desert island pic, but very worthwhile having. Nice sounding organs, too, restored baroque and neo-baroque.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on September 16, 2011, 03:38:34 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 15, 2011, 02:21:09 PM
IMO there is no weighty reason to believe that BWV 565 with its obvious violinistic writing did not originate in a piece for violin solo. And that J S Bach made the arrangement for organ seems credible. He used to rework the musical texture rather much, compare with the concerto BWV 1052, which obviously also originated in a violin concerto. Concerning the identity of the composer who wrote the violin piece which became BWV 565, I tend to think that it was Bach himself. Among all the early- , high- and late baroque music I have listened to and/or seen the score of, I have never met another composer, who might have written a piece so brilliant and dramatic and yet so simple - the result of a true touch of genius. I think the violin piece may have been written under the influence of Johann Paul von Westhoff during Bach´s first short stay in Weimar (1703). Shortly afterwards, maybe in Arnstadt, Bach may have arranged the work for organ.

Good morning!

To be sure, I don't have a dog in this race, so I should certainly entertain any sound hypothesis. And you're already framing the question in a much more reasonable (or should we simply say, not in any recklessly iconoclastic) light.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 16, 2011, 07:56:33 AM
BWV 565:
Johann Sebastian Bach?
Johann Heinrich Buttstett (1666-1727)? :P
Johann Peter Kellner (1705-1772)? :P :P

Or even: composed originally for violin?
(As suggested by scholar Peter Williams - among others.)

Some parts of the Fugue seem to be inspired by a theme of the Fantasia in a minor P 125, by Johann Pachelbel.

J.S. Bach was scholed by his eldest brother Johann Christoph Bach, who was a pupil of Pachelbel and probably used lots of copies of Pachelbel's music in his teaching. This Fantasia P 125 was not yet published, not even during J.S. Bach's entire life. That's why many believe that a young J.S. Bach might well have been the composer, because of the close relationship between Pachelbel and the Bach family.

Because of the both North and South German influences in BWV 565, Johann Heinrich Buttstett [or Buttstedt], who was also a pupil of Pachelbel, comes to mind, too. He was an important keyboard composer in his time, like J.S. Bach he was considered as being slightly 'old-fashioned' during his own lifetime, and he is known for combining those northern and southern styles in a contrapuntal way. But I personally don't find the works I've heard from him as impressive as BWV 565.

Of the Bach pupils, Johann Peter Kellner is known for adapting much of the Grandmaster's style. I once read that some scholars are almost certain that he's the composer. If this were true, BWV 565 wouldn't be a Stylus Phantasticus, but a Sturm und Drang piece!

(And let's not forget that earlier mentioned option: because of the composing style, scholars like Peter Williams assume that BWV 565 is an organ arrangment of a violin solo piece.)

Who's to reveal the 'truth'?

Personally, I like to listen to BWV 565 very much, but it's my least favourite Toccata by Bach. It's a great introduction to 17th/18th organ music though, who ever the composer may be.
The piece has not survived as autograph. The first surviving (2nd half of the 18th century) copies of BWV 565 mentioned Sebastian as the composer. The oldest copy is by Johannes Ringk (1717-1778), who, btw, was a pupil of J.P. Kellner. It wouldn't surprise me if those old sources, if they mention the name of Bach being the author, proved to be more reliable than all those searching and digging 20th and 21st century scholars. But until the real original has not turned up, the truth about BWV 565 will remain something of a mystery, I guess.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 16, 2011, 02:07:07 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 16, 2011, 07:56:33 AM
BWV 565:
Johann Sebastian Bach?
Johann Heinrich Buttstett (1666-1727)? :P
Johann Peter Kellner (1705-1772)? :P :P

Of the Bach pupils, Johann Peter Kellner is known for adapting much of the Grandmaster's style. I once read that some scholars are almost certain that he's the composer. If this were true, BWV 565 wouldn't be a Stylus Phantasticus, but a Sturm und Drang piece!

Scholars or not - it isn´t but conjecture. The surviving copy by Ringk ought to be more reliable than some modern scholar´s casual guesswork. And what I have heard of Buttstedt´s and Kellner´s organ works suggested reasonably talented composers, but you have to be more than that to be able to conceive the BWV 565. And listen to it, it is permeated by baroque pathos, and not by embryonal romanticism.. Indeed there is no obvious problem with the authenticity at all, only a pseudoproblem created by some sensation-seeking scholars, who think they are so very clever.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 16, 2011, 02:37:53 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 16, 2011, 02:07:07 PM
Scholars or not - it isn´t but conjecture. The surviving copy by Ringk ought to be more reliable than some modern scholar´s casual guesswork. And what I have heard of Buttstedt´s and Kellner´s organ works suggested reasonably talented composers, but you have to be more than that to be able to conceive the BWV 565. And listen to it, it is permeated by baroque pathos, and not by embryonal romanticism.. Indeed there is no obvious problem with the authenticity at all, only a pseudoproblem created by some sensation-seeking scholars, who think they are so very clever.

Looks a bit like this:

Quote from: Marc on September 16, 2011, 07:56:33 AM
[....] The first surviving (2nd half of the 18th century) copies of BWV 565 mentioned Sebastian as the composer. The oldest copy is by Johannes Ringk (1717-1778), who, btw, was a pupil of J.P. Kellner. It wouldn't surprise me if those old sources, if they mention the name of Bach being the author, proved to be more reliable than all those searching and digging 20th and 21st century scholars. [....]

I would like to stress though, that I know of no scholar(s) who actually claim that BWV 565 isn't by Bach. Maybe David Humphreys seems the most convinced that the author could have been Johann Peter Kellner.
And I really doubt if f.i. Peter Williams is a sensation-seeking scholar. He's searching and digging without being prejudiced, as far as I can see/read. As a scholar should be, IMO.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 16, 2011, 03:10:49 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 16, 2011, 02:37:53 PM
Looks a bit like this:
Just means that we more or less agree.

Quote from: Marc
I would like to stress though, that I know of no scholar(s) who actually claim that BWV 565 isn't by Bach. Maybe David Humphreys seems the most convinced that the author could have been Johann Peter Kellner.
Of course it is impossible to claim that it is not by Bach. Even a scholar knows this.

Quote from: Marc
And I really doubt if f.i. Peter Williams is a sensation-seeking scholar. He's searching and digging without being prejudiced, as far as I can see/read. As a scholar should be, IMO.

P. Williams was as far as I recall the first to mention the presumed violin original and to cast doubt as to the authenticity. At least I read this theory for the first time in his handbook of Bach´s organ works. His words seemed rather sober, and I did not get the impression, that he was sensation-seeking. But to day you can not read a word about BWV 565 without facing the claimed fact that it is almost with certainty not by Bach. This is going too far.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 16, 2011, 03:15:22 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 16, 2011, 03:10:49 PM
[....]
But to day you can not read a word about BWV 565 without facing the claimed fact that it is almost with certainty not by Bach. This is going too far.

Yes. But I doubt if these words are written by (serious) scholars.

More likely by sensation-seeking laymen like yours truly. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 16, 2011, 04:02:00 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 16, 2011, 03:15:22 PM
Yes. But I doubt if these words are written by (serious) scholars.

More likely by sensation-seeking laymen like yours truly. ;)

Well, it seems as if Christoph Wolff is the only well known scholar who believes that BWV 565 is an authentic work by Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 17, 2011, 06:47:28 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 16, 2011, 03:10:49 PM
Of course it is impossible to claim that it is not by Bach. Even a scholar knows this.

Last night I was listening to some selection from the so-called six sonatas for obbligato harpsichord and solo violin" and I found this comment in the brief liner notes of the recording by Byron Schenkman & Ingrid Matthews: "It is easy to think of J.S. Bach in terms of the abstract, mathematical brilliance of his musical mind. But Bach's sense for music was also deeply based in his hands-his own virtuosity as a player and his craftsman's ease with the instruments he touched. With no formal training, he was something of a maverick, forever experimenting with the production of music...".   

Without formal training! I imagine Shulamit Kleinerman (the writer) was expecting that Bach had assisted to Conservatory, with 15 or 20 guys and obtained a diploma in order to don't consider him a sort of "self-taught person". Sometimes scholars need not just some extra dose of common sense, but also some history lessons.

BTW, against the general opinion I think Richard Egarr/Andrew Manze perform one of the best available versions of BWV 1019, with Egarr playing very well the elusive second Allegro for solo harpsichord.

 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 17, 2011, 08:11:47 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 16, 2011, 04:02:00 PM
Well, it seems as if Christoph Wolff is the only well known scholar who believes that BWV 565 is an authentic work by Bach.

But I was referring to serious scholars.
Well known isn't the same as serious.
(Although Wolff is very serious, of course. ;))

Wolff's opinion is supported by Ton Koopman, professor in musicology at the University of Leiden (NL), to start with.

And what about the opinion on BWV 565 by Yoshitake Kobayashi, Kirsten Beißwenger, Hans-Joachim Schulze and Jean-Claude Zehnder, to name but a few? I've never heard them say: it's not by Bach. My guess is: they think it's authentic Bach, despite some more or less reasonable doubts.

Since both the NBA (Neue Bach Ausgabe) and the official BWV catalogue have not transported BWV 565 to the Anhang (yet), I reckon that most serious scholars still consider this work as being composed by Bach.

If there's a general conviction that a composition is doubtful and/or spurious, it will be placed in the Anhang II.
If thorough research has proven (with a probability close to certainty) that a work is not by Bach, it's off to Anhang III.

Such is the case with f.i. BWV 567 (not by Bach, subscribed to J.L. Krebs - Anhang III), 576 (most likely not by Bach, composer unknown - Anhang II), 577 (also spurious, composer unknown - Anhang II), BWV 591 (spurious, maybe composed by J.D. Heinichen - Anhang II) and chorales like 692, 693 and 748 (not by Bach, now subscribed to J.G. Walther).

So far, I do not know that this has happened to BWV 565.
The same goes for f.i. BWV 534 and 733, who are also both considered spurious by some scholars, but they're still part of the official catalogue.

OTOH, pieces like BWV 1085 ("O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig") and 1121 (Fantasia in C-minor) were once part of the Anhang (uncertain/spurious) and, since the 80s and 90s, are considered as authentic works by J.S. Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on September 17, 2011, 08:18:06 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 17, 2011, 08:11:47 AM
But I was referring to serious scholars.
Well known isn't the same as serious.
(Although Wolff is very serious, of course. ;))

Why the wink? ???
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 17, 2011, 09:06:30 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 17, 2011, 08:18:06 AM
Why the wink? ???

To avoid writing: you know what, Wolff is both!
Well known AND serious!

;) :D ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on September 17, 2011, 09:48:29 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 17, 2011, 09:06:30 AM
To avoid writing: you know what, Wolff is both!
Well known AND serious!

;) :D ;D

Hm. For a moment there, you made me think that the public face of Bach scholarship wasn't all that well regarded. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 17, 2011, 12:25:25 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 17, 2011, 08:11:47 AM
But I was referring to serious scholars.
Well known isn't the same as serious.
(Although Wolff is very serious, of course. ;))

I realise that I should have written well-reputed, as this was what I meant.

Quote from: Marc
And what about the opinion on BWV 565 by Yoshitake Kobayashi, Kirsten Beißwenger, Hans-Joachim Schulze and Jean-Claude Zehnder, to name but a few? I've never heard them say: it's not by Bach. My guess is: they think it's authentic Bach, despite some more or less reasonable doubts.

Since both the NBA (Neue Bach Ausgabe) and the official BWV catalogue have not transported BWV 565 to the Anhang (yet), I reckon that most serious scholars still consider this work as being composed by Bach.

If there's a general conviction that a composition is doubtful and/or spurious, it will be placed in the Anhang II.
If thorough research has proven (with a probability close to certainty) that a work is not by Bach, it's off to Anhang III.

Such is the case with f.i. BWV 567 (not by Bach, subscribed to J.L. Krebs - Anhang III), 576 (most likely not by Bach, composer unknown - Anhang II), 577 (also spurious, composer unknown - Anhang II), BWV 591 (spurious, maybe composed by J.D. Heinichen - Anhang II) and chorales like 692, 693 and 748 (not by Bach, now subscribed to J.G. Walther).

So far, I do not know that this has happened to BWV 565.
The same goes for f.i. BWV 534 and 733, who are also both considered spurious by some scholars, but they're still part of the official catalogue.

OTOH, pieces like BWV 1085 ("O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig") and 1121 (Fantasia in C-minor) were once part of the Anhang (uncertain/spurious) and, since the 80s and 90s, are considered as authentic works by J.S. Bach.

All this is very good, but so far the question of authorship often is unanswered - when cast in doubt - because of the nature of  the sources, stylistic criteria are the only way we have left, when we consider the authenticity of many of Bach´s organ works, excuse me attributed organ works. This is why your and my guesses -  even if we are not are musicologists - may be just as valid as the guess of the most learned scholars.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on September 17, 2011, 12:28:11 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 17, 2011, 06:47:28 AM
BTW, against the general opinion I think Richard Egarr/Andrew Manze perform one of the best available versions of BWV 1019, with Egarr playing very well the elusive second Allegro for solo harpsichord.

Just curious why you refer to the solo Allegro as elusive.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 17, 2011, 04:15:18 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on September 17, 2011, 12:28:11 PM
Just curious why you refer to the solo Allegro as elusive.

I meant that different performers seem to have very different ideas about the "affect" conveyed by this movement. Yesterday, I listened to Egarr, Schenkman, Leonhardt I-II and Butt and all of them offer strikingly different interpretations. Maybe a consequence of the several changes introduced by Bach himself in this work?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2011, 06:48:13 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 16, 2011, 04:02:00 PM
Well, it seems as if Christoph Wolff is the only well known scholar who believes that BWV 565 is an authentic work by Bach.

What's up with this? Have they all taken tainted Kool-Aid?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 17, 2011, 10:42:22 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 17, 2011, 12:25:25 PM
All this is very good, but so far the question of authorship often is unanswered - when cast in doubt - because of the nature of  the sources, stylistic criteria are the only way we have left, when we consider the authenticity of many of Bach´s organ works, excuse me attributed organ works.

;D

Quote from: (: premont :)
This is why your and my guesses -  even if we are not are musicologists - may be just as valid as the guess of the most learned scholars.

Well thank you! You make me blush. :-[

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 17, 2011, 06:48:13 PM
What's up with this? Have they all taken tainted Kool-Aid?

Relax. This problem has been drank out already. Mr. Wolff has got a lot of supporters. His house(s) may be too small to invite them all for a Kool-Aid Tasting Party.

Especially if Bach would be the DJ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 28, 2011, 02:50:46 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DRWC8MT2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I don't know Jacques Amade and these recordings were not in my book. Any info and/or opinion?



Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 28, 2011, 08:11:27 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 28, 2011, 02:50:46 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DRWC8MT2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I don't know Jacques Amade and these recordings were not in my book. Any info and/or opinion?

About 1 1/2 year ago I borrowed one volume of this set from the library. From what I remember: it's OK, but not something special. During that periode I also listened to Canadien Bernard Lagacé, but I definitely preferred Amade. (Partly caused by the choice of instrument(s).)
In the end though, I decided: not another purchase of another integral for me ;), unless I stumble across a very budget-priced issue.

Here's a more specified opinion about Amade playing Bach, by member listener:

Quote from: listener on January 01, 2010, 06:23:25 PM
Tempos a bit on the quick side, the organ is a smaller one with reeds and mixtures on all manuals so the counterpoint can be heard. 4 Stops in the pedal 2@16 ft. so the bass is never  cloudy, and the building is not over-resonant.  Over-bright registration over-all, and a somewhat staccato touch.   Nice display of the organ, using Bach works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 29, 2011, 02:10:59 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 28, 2011, 02:50:46 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DRWC8MT2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I don't know Jacques Amade and these recordings were not in my book. Any info and/or opinion?

Well, I own - I almost wrote of course - his set in the original release. Even if I got it more than one year ago,  I have not worked my way completely through it yet. His style I would describe as straight and efficient and not that deep. Organ or not, of Amade and Lagacé I prefer - contrary to Marc - the more introvert Lagacé.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on October 05, 2011, 06:39:45 PM
I read through the thread recently; I must say that it was fun to track the conversation between a small amount of members and watch for the occasional interjection by someone new (or simply by an infrequent visitor).  I originally decided to dig through this thread because I was looking to pick up an integral of Bach's organ works.  I'd heard Walcha (second integral) and Rogg in the past but don't recall much about them other than enjoying both, along with some single disc recordings by Biggs and Murray. (The latter put me off of organ listening for several years!)  In the end, after seeing that the Rogg set is OOP and only available for ridiculous prices, I settled on the Walcha.  The second Alain integral seemed a very strong contender given all the great reviews here, but I had a good feeling about the Walcha.  I can always add the Alain to my collection later; I suspect it will be in print for a while.

As soon as I can get some serious listening in I hope to join the conversation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on October 05, 2011, 08:32:26 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 05, 2011, 06:39:45 PM
I read through the thread recently; I must say that it was fun to track the conversation between a small amount of members and watch for the occasional interjection by someone new (or simply by an infrequent visitor).

Welcome to the thread! :)

Quote from: Geo Dude
As soon as I can get some serious listening in I hope to join the conversation.

Please do!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on October 16, 2011, 06:55:15 AM
I'm not sure if I'm getting this right but I thought I read somewhere that some keyboardist said that even without Bach there is enough great harpsichord music to enjoy playing. However, without Bach's organ work he couldn't imagine playing the organ. I don't know whether or not this makes any sense. I spend most of my music-listening hours with Bach. Perhaps I need to devote a little time to the organ works. This is my only Bach organ recording. I've had it in my collection for a while but haven't listened to it much. I have no idea whether or not this is the best one to begin with.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ndRmpbJvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on October 17, 2011, 06:12:21 AM
Quote from: milk on October 16, 2011, 06:55:15 AM
I'm not sure if I'm getting this right but I thought I read somewhere that some keyboardist said that even without Bach there is enough great harpsichord music to enjoy playing. However, without Bach's organ work he couldn't imagine playing the organ. I don't know whether or not this makes any sense. I spend most of my music-listening hours with Bach. Perhaps I need to devote a little time to the organ works. This is my only Bach organ recording. I've had it in my collection for a while but haven't listened to it much. I have no idea whether or not this is the best one to begin with.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ndRmpbJvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


The one disc (set of 3 discs, to be precise) I recommend everyone who wants to start on Bach organ works (and wishes to hear it) is--without a doubt--this one:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-s5R_KMii38s/TcFt9C7-YJI/AAAAAAAAAHo/DYPtumicCC8/s400/Folder.jpg)
J.S. Bach,
(Important) Organ Works
Karl Richter
DG Originals
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006ZFQMQ/goodmusicguide-20)

Mini-reviews here: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/dg-originals-review.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/dg-originals-review.html) and here:
Best Recordings of 2005 (Re-Issue, No.6) : http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html

Quote
Karl Richter was impressive in pretty much any Bach he did, whether he led his Munich Bach
troupe in oratorios, cantatas, and passions or played the old master's organ works. (That
always and inevitably reminds me of a precious student paper's first sentence I once read:
"Johann Sebastian Bach had 20 children. He was an old master of the grand organ.") DG
has collected his Richter's recordings on three discs which include some of the most famous
and important works. The famous, albeit apocryphal, Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, BWV 565
(think movie villain in his castle, laughing maniacally), is there, as is my favorite, Prelude and
Fugue, BWV 553 (which has also seen a very smart and catchy orchestration from Arnold
Schoenberg). The booklet here is painfully flimsy. The Silberman Organ in Freiburg and the
Kopenhagen Organ sound magnificent, the resonance of the churches is well caught in these
recordings from late 1965 through 1979 and Richter plays with verve, with near-Romantic
dedication but also clarity: in short, without fail. The completist, of course, will want to have
all the works and in several versions, but stopping short of that insanity, this might be the
right fix for your Bach organ needs.

P.S. The 2 disc set you have is certainly not a bad one to begin with.  Re-released two years ago for a reason.
The Metzler organ sounds lovely to my ears.  Lacking some non-P&F works, though, and lacking BWV 553 and
the absolutely essential Passacaglia BWV 582.

More importantly: not too much overlap with the Richter disc!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518sxblJcWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
J.S. Bach,
Lots of Preludes & Fugues
Christopher Herrick
Hyperion Dyad
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000JCDRYU/goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on October 17, 2011, 08:19:12 PM
As much as I'm interested in Jens' opinion, I do not share his enthousiasm for Karl Richter. But that's a matter of personal preferences of course. I don't feel 'at Bach's home' with Richter's style of playing. Too much mechanical sewing machine-like. If you can manage to get hold of single discs by f.i. Lionel Rogg or Marie-Claire Alain, you'd be better suited IMHO.
Or, even better maybe, try to get hold of the recordings on the label 'Arte Nova' by Rainer Oster and Stefan Johannes Bleicher. They recorded nice mixed programmes on good historic organs and did so in a very convincing way.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on October 18, 2011, 12:09:41 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on September 14, 2011, 08:00:54 AM
I'll contribute the two that I own:


James Kibbie -- free download from http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/

Thank you for the tip: I downloaded about two thirds of this today, and listened to some of the tracks just now, and will download the rest the next time I'm at the library (dial up is not made for downloading).  It's not a replacement for the better known sets, but it might be a useful introduction to someone who's not very familiar with the organ works.
Only real drawbacks are 1) while the files are organized by categories--so all the Trio Sonatas are  in one ZIP folder, the Preludes and Fugues in a second, the Schubler Chorales in another, etc.--once each folder is unzipped, you are faced with tracks identified only by BWV number, which means if you want to look up a particular work, you'll need a BWV listing handy.  2)the files are playable on computer (I used VLC Media Player, and apparently they can also be played with ITunes) as is, but with WMP, and would need to have a format conversion and then manually burned to CDs if you want to play it on a CD player.

Speaking of Herrick, his recording of the Neuminster Chorales was (as of yesterday at least) on Hyperion's Buy Me! page at about half price--that's Hyperion's bargain basement page for works that haven't been bought in the loooongest time.  (But it's literally first come first serve--if one of you does buy it, it drops off the page and goes back to normal pricing for everyone else.)  Go to Hyperion's website and look for the "Buy Me!" page if interested.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on October 19, 2011, 05:47:36 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 17, 2011, 06:12:21 AM
The one disc (set of 3 discs, to be precise) I recommend everyone who wants to start on Bach organ works (and wishes to hear it) is--without a doubt--this one:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-s5R_KMii38s/TcFt9C7-YJI/AAAAAAAAAHo/DYPtumicCC8/s400/Folder.jpg)
J.S. Bach,
(Important) Organ Works
Karl Richter
DG Originals
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006ZFQMQ/goodmusicguide-20)

Mini-reviews here: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/dg-originals-review.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/dg-originals-review.html) and here:
Best Recordings of 2005 (Re-Issue, No.6) : http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html

P.S. The 2 disc set you have is certainly not a bad one to begin with.  Re-released two years ago for a reason.
The Metzler organ sounds lovely to my ears.  Lacking some non-P&F works, though, and lacking BWV 553 and
the absolutely essential Passacaglia BWV 582.

More importantly: not too much overlap with the Richter disc!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518sxblJcWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
J.S. Bach,
Lots of Preludes & Fugues
Christopher Herrick
Hyperion Dyad
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000JCDRYU/goodmusicguide-20)
Thanks for your comment and thanks to the moderator for moving my post to the proper place. I've got the Herrick recording on my headphones as I write.
I'm multitasking: I'm also looking at the Richter recording on itunes. Well, I'm beginning to enjoy Bach's organ works.
I think this Richter recording may be my next purchase - unless I see strong arguments to go in another direction.
Thanks for the recommendation. I've been having a good time with the Herrick recording. The production is wonderful. Still, I have to admit that I'm going slow.
I find myself taking in one pair of compositions (Fantasy/fugue; Prelude/fugue) at a time and then doing something else.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 19, 2011, 06:51:59 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 05, 2011, 06:39:45 PM
As soon as I can get some serious listening in I hope to join the conversation.

You did it already!  :)

BTW, if I conserved just two integral recordings of Bach's organ music (God forbid!), I think they would be Walcha's second and Alain's second.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on October 19, 2011, 07:29:44 AM
Well now I have something else to channel my OCD into. I've been sitting up reading this thread and downloading a smattering of organ music: Biggs, Weinberger, Walcha, Rogg...Taking
bulldog's opinion into consideration, I threw some Leipzig chorals into the mix (Walcha and Weinberger)! I've gotta say, I do love the Herrick recording I mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on October 19, 2011, 07:54:35 AM
Quote from: milk on October 19, 2011, 05:47:36 AM

Thanks for the recommendation. I've been having a good time with the Herrick recording. The production is wonderful. Still, I have to admit that I'm going slow.
I find myself taking in one pair of compositions (Fantasy/fugue; Prelude/fugue) at a time and then doing something else.

Do take it slow! It's the best way. Enjoy the ride, which needn't be fast to get you places.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on October 19, 2011, 08:31:33 AM
Quote from: milk on October 19, 2011, 07:29:44 AM
Well now I have something else to channel my OCD into. I've been sitting up reading this thread and downloading a smattering of organ music: Biggs, Weinberger, Walcha, Rogg...
Taking bulldog's opinion into consideration, I threw some Leipzig chorals into the mix (Walcha and Weinberger)! I've gotta say, I do love the Herrick recording I mentioned earlier.

Beware of getting into true organ mood!
Before you know it you're hooked!

I began my serious organ travelling around early 2009 .... and now I'm a total junkie. :'(

Today I listened to the Schnitger/Timpe organ in the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen, NL. This beauty had been silent for 15 years until last weekend.
This afternoon, Jelte Hulzebos gave a great recital with Bach's Prelude & Fugue in B-minor BWV 544 as Grande Finale. Yummie!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 12, 2011, 10:38:48 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 29, 2011, 09:46:04 AM
[....]
One of my favourite chorale arrangement compositions for organ is BWV 686 Aus tiefer Not schrei' ich zu dir, which belongs to the Third Part of Bach's Clavier-Übung. It gives me the shivers.
Ton Koopman's performance, played on the great Silbermann organ of the Freiberger Dom, is very impressive.
[....]

Mandatory ;) listening to this deeply moving piece tomorrow, since it's the 21st Sunday after Trinity ....
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2011, 01:14:11 PM
The imputation upon the d minor Toccata & Fugue of spuriousness still annoys, rather.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2011, 01:23:42 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 12, 2011, 01:14:11 PM
The imputation upon the d minor Toccata & Fugue of spuriousness still annoys, rather.

Did Yoda hijack karlhenning's account?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on November 12, 2011, 01:28:11 PM
What annoys you about it, Karl?

It's as much Bach as the "Italian Concerto" or several other of the keyboard works based on italianate concertos.

Bach messing with stuff that others wrote always comes out as something that is essentially more Bach than anyone else. Even--miraculously--if he changes few (if any) notes. In that sense, the Toccata & Fugue as an organ piece is still totally Bach!

(does that help?)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 12, 2011, 01:47:02 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 12, 2011, 01:28:11 PM
What annoys you about it, Karl?

It's as much Bach as the "Italian Concerto" or several other of the keyboard works based on italianate concertos.

Bach messing with stuff that others wrote always comes out as something that is essentially more Bach than anyone else. Even--miraculously--if he changes few (if any) notes. In that sense, the Toccata & Fugue as an organ piece is still totally Bach!

(does that help?)

Sorry, Jens, but that doesn't make any sense at all.

The Italian Concerto (Concerto nach Italienischem Gusto) is an original Bach composition, published by him as his Clavier Übung II, while the Toccata & Fugue in D minor would supposedly be just a wrong attribution, a spurious composition (what, btw, I don't believe).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on November 12, 2011, 01:52:16 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 12, 2011, 01:47:02 PM
Sorry, Jens, but that doesn't make any sense at all.

The Italian Concerto (Concerto nach Italienischem Gusto) is an original Bach composition, published by him as his Clavier Übung II, while the Toccata & Fugue in D minor would supposedly be just a wrong attribution, a spurious composition (what, btw, I don't believe).

The Italian Concerto is presumably an original composition after a composite, real, or possibly non-existent concerto of an Italian Composer... at least a figmentary concerto in the 'Italian Style'.  Let it be all-Bach... then just skip over to one of the many Vivaldi or Marcelli et al. concertos that Bach took and turned into brilliant perfectly Bachian solo keyboard works. (I've amended above post, in any case. There are plenty other examples that make my point. )

The Toccata & Fugue is NOT a wrong attribution. It is an organ piece based on a piece that is NOT for organ but also not by Bach. And that you may believe or not, but it's the accepted and by now perfectly uncontroversial orthodoxy of Bach research.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 12, 2011, 02:21:19 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 12, 2011, 01:52:16 PM
The Italian Concerto is presumably an original composition after a composite, real, or possibly non-existent concerto of an Italian Composer... at least a figmentary concerto in the 'Italian Style'.  Let it be all-Bach... then just skip over to one of the many Vivaldi or Marcelli et al. concertos that Bach took and turned into brilliant perfectly Bachian solo keyboard works. (I've amended above post, in any case. There are plenty other examples that make my point. )
I have never read any hypothesis like yours. The Italian Concerto is a work 100% by Bach and its declared purpose is to get the effect, the illusion of a complete Italian concerto for strings, but performed from the keyboard, as a sort of keyboard reduction. This imitative aspect is precisely the genial idea behind this work. It maybe existed as a real Italian Concerto for strings by Bach himself, but there are not proofs about it.

Quote from: jlaurson on November 12, 2011, 01:52:16 PM
The Toccata & Fugue is NOT a wrong attribution. It is an organ piece based on a piece that is NOT for organ but also not by Bach. And that you may believe or not, but it's the accepted and by now perfectly uncontroversial orthodoxy of Bach research.
There is nothing "perfectly uncontroversial" about this. In 1980 or 1981 Peter Williams hypothesized that, maybe, the Toccata & Fugue wasn't originally an organ piece, but a piece for violin or other instrument because of certain anomalous features for an organ piece. But the question about Bach's authorship remains the same. Even some violinists who have recorded the "violin reconstruction" (like Manze), think that this is not a Bach composition (you can read the liner notes of his recording). 


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 13, 2011, 02:18:24 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 12, 2011, 02:21:19 PMIn 1980 or 1981 Peter Williams hypothesized that, maybe, the Toccata & Fugue wasn't originally an organ piece, but a piece for violin or other instrument because of certain anomalous features for an organ piece. But the question about Bach's authorship remains the same.

Possibly the original (supposed) violin fugue was not by Bach, but I have got a strong feeling that the organ arrangement was made by (a very young) Bach. and possibly the introductory toccata as well as the concluding toccata section were added by Bach, when he arranged the fugue for organ. He also rewrote the fugue rather much, f.i. turning some of the sequential figuration episodes into something very Bachian.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on November 13, 2011, 02:43:32 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 12, 2011, 02:21:19 PM...
There is nothing "perfectly uncontroversial" about this... the question about Bach's authorship remains the same. Even some violinists who have recorded the "violin reconstruction" (like Manze), think that this is not a Bach composition (you can read the liner notes of his recording).

Did you mean to type "...think that is a Bach composition"?

Incidentally I've brushed on the topic about the T&F with Manze not so long ago and if he thought that it was Bach after all, he certainly didn't give any hint that that's what he believed. Simon Preston -- and although I might not necessarily cite him as a authoritative Bach scholar you'd think he'd know a thing or two about it -- made no effort trying to somehow 'salvage' the T&F as 'original-Bach-all-the-way'.
If there is any resistance to the notion of T&F being an organ transcription based on a non-Bach work, it's only because of the emotional attachment that has been built with that piece over the last 80 years, and how it became the Hollywood-idea of 'quintessential' Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 13, 2011, 03:03:52 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 13, 2011, 02:43:32 AM
If there is any resistance to the notion of T&F being an organ transcription based on a non-Bach work, it's only because of the emotional attachment that has been built with that piece over the last 80 years, and how it became the Hollywood-idea of 'quintessential' Bach.

Considerations like these have no weight as to me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2011, 03:55:17 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 13, 2011, 02:18:24 AM
Possibly the original (supposed) violin fugue was not by Bach, but I have got a strong feeling that the organ arrangement was made by (a very young) Bach. and possibly the introductory toccata as well as the concluding toccata section were added by Bach, when he arranged the fugue for organ. He also rewrote the fugue rather much, f.i. turning some of the sequential figuration episodes into something very Bachian.

All very tenable.

What I find vexatious is not the hypothesis, but the methodology. The brief remark in a CD booklet to which I allude is one of those borderline-dishonest remarks which takes it as somehow established that the piece is spurious (and it is put that simply).  My point is, is this documented at all?  Or is it solely speculative?  It's disappointing enough when a fellow chattering on the internet doesn't know what a fact is, but a red flag is raised when this intellectual softness creeps into the in-print medium (and CD booklets are the marches of in-print).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 13, 2011, 06:41:57 AM
Karl, I suppose you are referring to the booklet of Marie-Claire Alain's 2nd integral. This text is just a small general synopsis about Bach's organ works.

If you really want to dig into the problem, here are some suggestions (some are in German):

P. Williams, "BWV 565: a Toccata in D minor for organ by J. S. Bach?". In: Early Music Vol. 9, July 1981.
D. Humphreys, "The D Minor Toccata BWV 565". In: Early Music Vol. 10, 1982, No. 2.
A. Dürr, "Authenticity of Johann Sebastian Bach's 'Toccata und Fuge d-moll BWV 565' - a comment". In: Musik und Kirche Vol. 66, No. 5, September/October 1996.
R.D. Claus, Zur Echtheit von Toccata und Fuge d-moll BWV 565. Verlag Dohr, 2nd ed. Cologne, 1998 (German).
Chr. Wolff, "Zum norddeutschen Kontext der Orgelmusik des jugendlichen Bach: Das Scheinproblem der Toccata d-Moll BWV 565". In: Bach, Lübeck und die norddeutsche Musiktradition. Edited by Wolfgang Sandberger. Kassel, 2002.
P. Williams, The Organ Music of J. S. Bach. 2nd ed. Cambridge University Press, 2003.
E.L. Altschuler, "Were Bach's Toccata and Fugue BWV 565 and the Ciacconia from BCW 1004 Lute Pieces?". In: The Musical Times Vol. 146, No. 1893, 2005.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2011, 06:48:45 AM
Thanks. Offhand, do you know what source documents from Bach's time are used in support of the contention that the piece is "spurious"?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 07:04:57 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 13, 2011, 02:18:24 AM
Possibly the original (supposed) violin fugue was not by Bach, but I have got a strong feeling that the organ arrangement was made by (a very young) Bach. and possibly the introductory toccata as well as the concluding toccata section were added by Bach, when he arranged the fugue for organ. He also rewrote the fugue rather much, f.i. turning some of the sequential figuration episodes into something very Bachian.

Well, I tend to easily accept an explanation like yours because you're aware that it's merely conjectural and you don't pretend it's a pacific matter.

Anyway, as logical judgement your explanation recalls me the "Ockham's Razor". Do you remember this principle? It's the principle proposed by William of Ockham in the fourteenth century: Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate, which translates as "entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily". 

To explain the authorship of the Toccata & Fugue for organ as a Bach transcription/composition, this explanation creates, at least, two new uncertain entities: (1) a supposedly (and lost) original for violin (by Bach) and (2) a supposedly original violin fugue by another (and unknown) composer, also lost.

That's the reason why I simply prefer to accept the Toccata & Fugue as a composition of a very young Bach, based on the traditional attribution (which is not a minor argument, IMO) and its striking and powerful "personality" as an organ piece (which is lost to a large extent as a composition for violin).  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 13, 2011, 07:09:18 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2011, 06:48:45 AM
Thanks. Offhand, do you know what source documents from Bach's time are used in support of the contention that the piece is "spurious"?

No.

We only know that, as is the case with a large amount of Bach's organ works, there is no authentic manuscript. The first copy is made by a pupil (Johannes Ringk, 1717-78) of a Bach's pupil (Johann Peter Kellner, 1705-1772).

Apparantly, this nowadays so famous piece was definitely not the talk of the musical town in the 18th century. I think that especially Albert Schweitzer (who called it a composition with great visionary power), Leopold Stokowski and Hollywood (Disney's Fantasia) made this piece legendary.

But the famous 19th century Bach biographer Philipp Spitta (1841-1894) already had doubs about the quality of the fugue: he considered it relatively weak compared to lots of other authentic Bach fugues (mentioning waves of tones that do not relate in any way to any theme in the piece).

FWIW: personally I think that the fugue of BWV 565 is one of the least interesting of Bach's organ output. Even after buying my first organ album (with M-C-Alain, somewhere in the mid 80s) I discovered that BWV 542 and 582 were much more exciting and interesting.

But, that's a personal matter of course.

Since you're a composer yourself: how do you rate BWV 565, compared to other (less) famous organ works by Bach? (Just curious. ;))
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 07:35:50 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 13, 2011, 02:43:32 AM
Did you mean to type "...think that is a Bach composition"?

Well, as I have said before, I don't have any problem regarding the notion of being the Toccata & Fugue a transcription from an original for violin, by Bach or by another composer. My problem was with your statement about being a pacific matter.

Quote from: jlaurson on November 13, 2011, 02:43:32 AM
Incidentally I've brushed on the topic about the T&F with Manze not so long ago and if he thought that it was Bach after all, he certainly didn't give any hint that that's what he believed. Simon Preston -- and although I might not necessarily cite him as a authoritative Bach scholar you'd think he'd know a thing or two about it -- made no effort trying to somehow 'salvage' the T&F as 'original-Bach-all-the-way'.

Manze on the Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565:

"If BWV 1024 is dubious, BWV 565 is positively fallacious and is included here less for musicological reasons than as a treat for a palate overwhelmed by Bach's glories. Like BWV 1024, the Toccata and Fugue in D minor for organ was for many years attributed to Bach and went on to become of his best-loved works, despite the many doubts as to its authorship raised by musicologists. More worrying still, the piece bore telltale signs of being an arrangement for organ perhaps of a violin piece. Many reconstructions of a hypothetical original have been made, and one, by the violinist Jaap Schröeder, was published during the last Bach year in 1985. The version presented here makes no claims to authenticity, although it is closely based on the dynamic and chordal possibilities of the baroque violin as Bach used it. It is transposed to A minor and the Fugue indulges in the conceit of sounding polyphonic, literally "many voiced", without once employing any double-stopping. Instead, the impression of polyphony is given by careful handling of voice-leading and tesitura, rather than a bewildering succession of unidiomatically virtuosic, cat's-cradle chords."

Quote from: jlaurson on November 13, 2011, 02:43:32 AM
If there is any resistance to the notion of T&F being an organ transcription based on a non-Bach work, it's only because of the emotional attachment that has been built with that piece over the last 80 years, and how it became the Hollywood-idea of 'quintessential' Bach.

This is not a problem for me. I am interested in Bach beyond the Dracula movies.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 13, 2011, 07:52:25 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 13, 2011, 07:09:18 AM
[....]
Apparantly, this nowadays so famous piece was definitely not the talk of the musical town in the 18th century.
[....]

Of course this is due to the fact that almost no work by Bach had been published during his own lifetime. I'm doing a wild guess, but I think it's limited to the 4 parts of the Clavier-Übung, 2 Ratswahl-Kantaten (one gone lost, the other being "Gott ist mein Köning" BWV 71), some songs of the Schemelli-Gesangbuch, the Canonische Variationen Über "Vom Himmel hoch", Das musikalische Opfer and, one year after his death, Die Kunst der Fuge. Thanks to several copies (mainly of keyboard music) his reputation remained rather high with 'music connaisseurs', but only in the first half of the 19th century his 'star' was slowly rising again, thanks specifically to Forkel's biography, the first print of the B-minor Mass and Mendelssohn's performance of the Matthäus-Passion.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 13, 2011, 02:03:47 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 07:04:57 AM
To explain the authorship of the Toccata & Fugue for organ as a Bach transcription/composition, this explanation creates, at least, two new uncertain entities: (1) a supposedly (and lost) original for violin (by Bach) and (2) a supposedly original violin fugue by another (and unknown) composer, also lost.
We do not need more than a lost (original) violin fugue by an unknown composer. The assumption serves solely the purpose of explaining the - admittedly - violinistic character of part of the organ fugue. I do not find the toccata sections - particularly not the concluding toccata section - that violinistic. And I find Manze´s transcription of these toccata sections for violin very ineffective (because of the prevailing one-part texture, this can almost only be made in one way).

So we have an organ work transmitted in Bach´s name. On the one hand it has got some striking and original expressive qualities, on the other hand it displays some clumpsy, apparently post-violinistic, part writing in the fugue. Not completely what we consider "Bachian". But we must be aware that our idea of what "Bachian" means rests upon surviving composed music from his hand, and in fact we do not know anything about the character of his improvisations. Why could the BWV 565 not be a written-down improvisation by the young Bach, an improvisation based upon an existing violin fugue from another (anonymous) hand and with added toccata sections by Bach? What strikes me as being the most Bachian trait of the work, is the subtle way the opening toccata "turn" is derived from the theme of the fugue in an apparently improvised but in fact very considered way.  But this is only assumptions, probability versus improbability and so on. Fortunately the work does not get better or worse, whether it is by Bach or not.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 03:21:22 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 13, 2011, 02:03:47 PM
We do not need more than a lost (original) violin fugue by an unknown composer. The assumption serves solely the purpose of explaining the - admittedly - violinistic character of part of the organ fugue. I do not find the toccata sections - particularly not the concluding toccata section - that violinistic. And I find Manze´s transcription of these toccata sections for violin very ineffective (because of the prevailing one-part texture, this can almost only be made in one way).

So we have an organ work transmitted in Bach´s name. On the one hand it has got some striking and original expressive qualities, on the other hand it displays some clumpsy, apparently post-violinistic, part writing in the fugue. Not completely what we consider "Bachian". But we must be aware that our idea of what "Bachian" means rests upon surviving composed music from his hand, and in fact we do not know anything about the character of his improvisations. Why could the BWV 565 not be a written-down improvisation by the young Bach, an improvisation based upon an existing violin fugue from another (anonymous) hand and with added toccata sections by Bach? What strikes me as being the most Bachian trait of the work, is the subtle way the opening toccata "turn" is derived from the theme of the fugue in an apparently improvised but in fact very considered way.  But this is only assumptions, probability versus improbability and so on. Fortunately the work does not get better or worse, whether it is by Bach or not.

I don't have anything to object here, as all of these conjectures are plausible. I especially agree with your comment regarding the improvisatory spirit of this piece. I don't see difficulties to imagine this work as a shocking (sort of) "improvisation", for instance, into an audition for a new job. This "showy" nature was, of course, quickly noticed by Hollywood.  :) 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2011, 05:22:49 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 13, 2011, 07:09:18 AM
. . . Since you're a composer yourself: how do you rate BWV 565, compared to other (less) famous organ works by Bach? (Just curious. ;))

Well, it might be otherwise if I were an organist . . . but I am apt to think of the BWV 565 as an old friend, and I don't rate friends ; )  I may think rather more of pieces like the G Major Prelude and Fugue, BWV 550.

In an interesting bit of timing . . . an organist friend of mine, puzzled at himself for choosing such an extended piece for the postlude, wound up cutting out large-ish swaths of the Prelude from the a minor BWV 561 this past Sunday morning.  Cutting it out, and not feeling any repentance for the deed, either . . . .
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 15, 2011, 01:34:27 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 15, 2011, 05:22:49 AM
Well, it might be otherwise if I were an organist . . . but I am apt to think of the BWV 565 as an old friend, and I don't rate friends ; )  I may think rather more of pieces like the G Major Prelude and Fugue, BWV 550.

That's a nice example, worth mentioning IMO. Every time I listen to it, it makes me very happy AND makes me think of the Preludes of Georg Böhm. Probably another youthful Bach-piece, too.

Quote from: karlhenningIn an interesting bit of timing . . . an organist friend of mine, puzzled at himself for choosing such an extended piece for the postlude, wound up cutting out large-ish swaths of the Prelude from the a minor BWV 561 this past Sunday morning.  Cutting it out, and not feeling any repentance for the deed, either . . . .

Well, sometimes Preludes, whatever -ludes and Fugues were coupled even after the composer's death, so .... I certainly won't force your friend to say his penitential prayers. ;)
(For instance: there is still no 'certainty' about who coupled the Prelude and Fugue of the massive BWV 546 in C-minor.)
In the case of BWV 561: some of the rushy passages could be stripped to create a more severe result? It's worth considering and I doubt if mr. Bach himself would mind.

Btw, I don't intend to cause another shock here .... but by some connaisseurs ;) BWV 561 is considered spurious. :P
It's been attributed to Wilhelm Friedemann Bach and also to Johann Christian Kittel (1732-1809), one of Bach's most talented pupils. As an organist, Kittel was much admired during his lifetime, by a.o. Goethe.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JaapT on January 06, 2012, 04:48:01 PM
Hi, I am just new here, but noticed the discussion on the authenticity of the d-minor Toccata & Fugue as a Bach composition.
In search for an answer I came across this BBC radio documentary exactly about this issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZWCSAWg4c

The antagonist in the documentary are Peter Williams (contra Bach) and Christoph Wolff (pro Bach). It seems to me that Wolff scores on points. He basically found new evidence for the reliability of the one and only source of the Toccata, namely Ringk. He also mentions that the notion for d minor, without flats is in line with an early Bach piece.

The attribution to Kellner that has been proposed by some seems a bit weird if one listens to Kellner's own Toccata in d: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcHpWov9T5M
This composition seem much more in gallant-style.

For the dutch among us, see also this link: http://www.robvanderhilst.nl/news/18/64/Over-Bach-s-beroemde-toccata/ (an essay by Rob van der Hilst).
What I don't like is that van der Hilst uses many arguments from Wolff but does attribute them to Wolff.

BTW I like a more recent recording by Foccroulle of this piece and several other Fantasias (on the Martini church organ in Groningen). Also Leonhardt has a very good (and one of the fastests) renditions IMO.

Jaap
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on January 06, 2012, 05:51:54 PM
I've given Walcha's Bach set a few tries and I never seem to get very far (contrary to a few years ago).  It's just very...intense.  I'm guessing I'm not ready for Walcha yet and should seek another route into Bach's organ works and then come back to Walcha later.  Is the Claire-Alain set #2 a good one for this purpose?  (I.e. less intense)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on January 06, 2012, 10:10:40 PM
Quote from: JaapT on January 06, 2012, 04:48:01 PM
Hi, I am just new here, but noticed the discussion on the authenticity of the d-minor Toccata & Fugue as a Bach composition.
In search for an answer I came across this BBC radio documentary exactly about this issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZWCSAWg4c

The antagonist in the documentary are Peter Williams (contra Bach) and Christoph Wolff (pro Bach). It seems to me that Wolff scores on points. He basically found new evidence for the reliability of the one and only source of the Toccata, namely Ringk. He also mentions that the notion for d minor, without flats is in line with an early Bach piece.

The attribution to Kellner that has been proposed by some seems a bit weird if one listens to Kellner's own Toccata in d: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcHpWov9T5M
This composition seem much more in gallant-style.

For the dutch among us, see also this link: http://www.robvanderhilst.nl/news/18/64/Over-Bach-s-beroemde-toccata/ (an essay by Rob van der Hilst).
What I don't like is that van der Hilst uses many arguments from Wolff but does attribute them to Wolff.

BTW I like a more recent recording by Foccroulle of this piece and several other Fantasias (on the Martini church organ in Groningen). Also Leonhardt has a very good (and one of the fastests) renditions IMO.

Jaap

Thanks for the link, Jaap, and welcome to GMG. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 07, 2012, 08:55:38 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 06, 2012, 05:51:54 PM
I've given Walcha's Bach set a few tries and I never seem to get very far (contrary to a few years ago).  It's just very...intense.  I'm guessing I'm not ready for Walcha yet and should seek another route into Bach's organ works and then come back to Walcha later.  Is the Claire-Alain set #2 a good one for this purpose?  (I.e. less intense)

Personally, I do think Marie Claire-Alain played in a more relaxed style.  But then I also do not feel Walcha is intense ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on January 07, 2012, 10:06:53 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 07, 2012, 08:55:38 AM
Personally, I do think Marie Claire-Alain played in a more relaxed style.  But then I also do not feel Walcha is intense ...

Walcha is probably not particularly intense if one is used to an organ, but for me it generates an effect of waves of sound pounding over me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 07, 2012, 10:58:43 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 07, 2012, 10:06:53 AM
Walcha is probably not particularly intense if one is used to an organ, but for me it generates an effect of waves of sound pounding over me.

Coming from a Lutheran background, organ music is natural music for me ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 08, 2012, 04:57:37 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 06, 2012, 05:51:54 PM
I've given Walcha's Bach set a few tries and I never seem to get very far (contrary to a few years ago).  It's just very...intense.  I'm guessing I'm not ready for Walcha yet and should seek another route into Bach's organ works and then come back to Walcha later.  Is the Claire-Alain set #2 a good one for this purpose?  (I.e. less intense)

Bach´s organ music - like all his music - is intense, so any successful interpretation has got to reflect this.

As to Alain II I do not find it less intense than Walcha´s recordings.
If I should recommend a relative (but only relative) more laid back approach, this would be Herrick, Stockmeier or Lagacé.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 08, 2012, 05:16:23 AM
Quote from: JaapT on January 06, 2012, 04:48:01 PM
Hi, I am just new here, but noticed the discussion on the authenticity of the d-minor Toccata & Fugue as a Bach composition.
In search for an answer I came across this BBC radio documentary exactly about this issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZWCSAWg4c

The antagonist in the documentary are Peter Williams (contra Bach) and Christoph Wolff (pro Bach). It seems to me that Wolff scores on points. He basically found new evidence for the reliability of the one and only source of the Toccata, namely Ringk. He also mentions that the notion for d minor, without flats is in line with an early Bach piece.

The attribution to Kellner that has been proposed by some seems a bit weird if one listens to Kellner's own Toccata in d: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcHpWov9T5M
This composition seem much more in gallant-style.

For the dutch among us, see also this link: http://www.robvanderhilst.nl/news/18/64/Over-Bach-s-beroemde-toccata/ (an essay by Rob van der Hilst).
What I don't like is that van der Hilst uses many arguments from Wolff but does attribute them to Wolff.

BTW I like a more recent recording by Foccroulle of this piece and several other Fantasias (on the Martini church organ in Groningen). Also Leonhardt has a very good (and one of the fastests) renditions IMO.

Jaap

Hello Jaap,

Welcome to this nice thread and to the GMG board in general.

About BWV 565 and its recordings:
Foccroulle is very trustworthy in any Bach piece. And Leonhardt is convincing in this one as well. No wonder, since he's very much at home in 17th century keyboard works.
Personally, I also like f.i. Daniel Chorzempa (Philips or PentaTone) and Thiemo Janssen (MDG). The latter plays on the beautiful Schnitger-organ of Norden (Ost-Friesland, Germany).

About BWV 565 and its authenticity:
I admit I'm guilty. I blabberd about this subject far too much. So, I would advice to each and everyone: plz, for a real Toccata & Fuga in D-minor by a certain J.S. Bach, LISTEN TO BWV 538! It's so much better and impressive, both as a composition as well as a spectacle. :)

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 08, 2012, 04:57:37 AM
[....]
If I should recommend a relative (but only relative) more laid back approach, this would be Herrick, Stockmeier or Lagacé.

Damn!
You just outmanoeuvred me by mentioning Herrick. >:(
He would be my choice to suggest a more 'soft-toned' and poetical Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 08, 2012, 04:08:10 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 08, 2012, 04:57:37 AM
If I should recommend a relative (but only relative) more laid back approach, this would be Herrick, Stockmeier or Lagacé.

Interesting trio. All of them share the ability of conveying a sort of moral courage and sincerity of expression, certainly uplifting. Neither of them is the star of the film, but all of them are great support actors.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on January 09, 2012, 03:42:47 AM
Thanks for the tips.  That said, I've decided I'm going to give Walcha more time and see how it goes.

...Plus, I found a trick that has worked pretty well:  Turn down the volume.

Out of curiosity, how does Rogg's style compare to Walcha's?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2012, 04:28:54 AM
I like the Walcha! (I've the monaural set.) YMMV, of course . . . .
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on January 09, 2012, 04:46:22 AM
I'm sure I'll come to love the Walcha in time, Karl, but this music does require a period of adjustment.  For me, at least.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2012, 04:50:52 AM
Hey, for all of us there's some music (or performances) we need to warm to. Carry on! : )
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 09, 2012, 11:11:46 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 08, 2012, 04:08:10 PM
Interesting trio. All of them share the ability of conveying a sort of moral courage and sincerity of expression, certainly uplifting. Neither of them is the star of the film, but all of them are great support actors.

This is true of Alain and Walcha too, and of many others. I think Herrick, and particulary Lagacé and Stockmeier shine through their unpretentiousness and less hectic approach allowing more time for reflection.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2012, 11:19:21 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 09, 2012, 11:11:46 AM
This is true of Alain and Walcha too, and of many others.

Thanks for this. I had the same thought, but then . . . the Walcha and Alain are the only sets I've got : )
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 09, 2012, 11:39:17 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2012, 11:19:21 AM
Thanks for this. I had the same thought, but then . . . the Walcha and Alain are the only sets I've got : )

And you are very well served by these two.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2012, 11:42:21 AM
Oh, I certainly agree.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 10, 2012, 05:25:01 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 09, 2012, 04:46:22 AM
I'm sure I'll come to love the Walcha in time, Karl, but this music does require a period of adjustment.  For me, at least.

Mentioned before in this thread, but here's that great free download possibility again:

http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/

Despite Kibbie not being in my personal Top 10, I think he's a fine performer of these works. And there's a chance to listen to a nice selection of historical German baroque organs!

Quote from: Geo Dude on January 09, 2012, 03:42:47 AM
[....]
Out of curiosity, how does Rogg's style compare to Walcha's?

Have not listened to Rogg for quite a while, but I wouldn't pick him as an opposite to Walcha.
I find Walcha more sparkling (despite his sober approach) and I prefer Rogg if registration in the free works is the matter.
Rogg's first 'integral' (Oryx) has never been re-issued on cd, his second one (Harmonia Mundi) is officially OOP (though to be found here & there on the net) and his 3rd with EMI is only partly re-issued on cd.
Best 'Rogg-buy' IMO is this one:

(http://i40.tinypic.com/s668wp.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Art-Fugue-Organ-Concertos/dp/B000NPCMHQ/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Todd on January 10, 2012, 06:56:14 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51m6G%2Bwt8ML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


It's been a while since I sampled any new recordings of Bach's organ music, so I opted for the above.  I listened to the Trio Sonatas last night.  Quite good, I must say, and rather different from Walcha (stereo) or Preston.  Alain seems a bit more laid back than the other two, and the registration of the organ, especially in the lower number works, produces some bright, very colorful sounds in the upper reaches of the instrument.  This is somewhat fearful.  I knew that organ recordings could be a bottomless pit.  Different instruments, different registrations, different approaches.  One could spend lots of money and lots of time listening to organ music, especially of Bach (or Buxtehude) quality.  Perhaps it's best if I just walk away now.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 10, 2012, 02:14:56 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 09, 2012, 11:11:46 AM
This is true of Alain and Walcha too, and of many others. I think Herrick, and particulary Lagacé and Stockmeier shine through their unpretentiousness and less hectic approach allowing more time for reflection.

Apparently, I have explained very badly my point because when I used the figure comparing "big stars" v/s "support actors", I was thinking of certain unpretentious nature ("humbleness" of intentions) of the second category. I mean, for instance, Walcha conveys a strong feeling of moral integrity, but he is not "unpretentious". On the contrary, Walcha has big plans; huge, absolute intentions. He wants to built an enormous building... And Alain, well... she is lovely in so many respects, but I won't use, for instance, "moral integrity" or "unpretentious character" as a first feature to define her style, although I wouldn't deny that she also has these features. IMO, particularly Stockmeier and Lagacé are quite unique in a certain (prevalent) ascetic nudeness (that conveys a strong sense of moral integrity too) and, therefore, I disagree this feature is shared for many other performers, especially if the counting is limited to the integral recordings. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JaapT on January 10, 2012, 02:31:03 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 08, 2012, 05:16:23 AM
About BWV 565 and its recordings:
Foccroulle is very trustworthy in any Bach piece. And Leonhardt is convincing in this one as well. No wonder, since he's very much at home in 17th century keyboard works.
Personally, I also like f.i. Daniel Chorzempa (Philips or PentaTone) and Thiemo Janssen (MDG). The latter plays on the beautiful Schnitger-organ of Norden (Ost-Friesland, Germany).

About BWV 565 and its authenticity:
I admit I'm guilty. I blabberd about this subject far too much. So, I would advice to each and everyone: plz, for a real Toccata & Fuga in D-minor by a certain J.S. Bach, LISTEN TO BWV 538! It's so much better and impressive, both as a composition as well as a spectacle. :)

Dear Marc,
BWV 538 is definitely much more mature and impressive, but I like the d-minor as well, perhaps for nostalgic reasons. For the free works I must say I like perhaps BWV 542 (Fantasia in g) most.  The discussion about the Toccata is nevertheless  interesting as the Toccata may show (or not) what compositions by the young Bach sounded like. I like in this piece Chorzempa as well, I have a compilation (Philips) with BWV 565, the passacaglia and BWV 532 (very impressive) and BWV 551 (too slow for my taste) and some chorals (very beautiful, played in the Marekerk Leiden).  In BWV 551 I like a vinyl record I have by Piet Kee (Philips) which also contains  a very nice interpretation of the partita over O Gott du frommer Gott. I don't think there is a CD version of this record.

As for BWV 538. I like Koopman's second recording on the very beautiful Müller-organ in Leeuwarden. He gives this piece a lot of momentum. Foccroulle also plays it excellently on the disc I mentioned (Groningen Martinikerk organ).

The organ in Norden is indeed beautiful, perhaps the most beautiful I have heard on disc. I have the complete Buxtehude works by Foccroulle which contains one disc recorded there. Another disc I have of that organ is by Jan Kleinbussink, which contains Northgerman organ works, including some Bach. Very impressive as well.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JaapT on January 10, 2012, 02:41:22 PM
Quote from: Todd on January 10, 2012, 06:56:14 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51m6G%2Bwt8ML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


It's been a while since I sampled any new recordings of Bach's organ music, so I opted for the above.  I listened to the Trio Sonatas last night.  Quite good, I must say, and rather different from Walcha (stereo) or Preston.  Alain seems a bit more laid back than the other two, and the registration of the organ, especially in the lower number works, produces some bright, very colorful sounds in the upper reaches of the instrument.  This is somewhat fearful.  I knew that organ recordings could be a bottomless pit.  Different instruments, different registrations, different approaches.  One could spend lots of money and lots of time listening to organ music, especially of Bach (or Buxtehude) quality.  Perhaps it's best if I just walk away now.

In the triosonatas I like Koopman's first recording very much (Waalse kerk, Amsterdam). I also have Alain III (less well defined sound but still good) and Daniel Chorzempa (I don't like his phrasing so much in these pieces as compared to Koopman's, Chorzempa's organ is also a bit too sharp for my taste (a Schnitgerorgan in Meppel)).  I also have Koopman third recording of the sonatas, but I find the organ too big for these more chambermusic like pieces. Koopman's second effort has some very nice renditions of some of the triosonatas. Especially in  number 6 the bass is sounds very low and not prominent enough for my taste.  By the way, there are some very nice adaptions of these works for various instruments. I particularly enjoy listening to the London Baroque (on BIS).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JaapT on January 10, 2012, 02:53:31 PM
By the way. I am not sure it has been mentioned here, but Gustav Leonhardt apparently gave his last concert in France in December. He canceled other concerts for health reasons. See http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/culture/20111213.OBS6572/musique-gustav-leonhardt-met-fin-a-sa-carriere.html (in French) http://www.cobra.be/cm/cobra/muziek/1.1177287 (in dutch with a bootleg video).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on January 11, 2012, 04:53:14 AM
Greetings, Jaap, and welcome!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 11, 2012, 08:18:32 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 10, 2012, 05:25:01 AM
Despite Kibbie not being in my personal Top 10, I think he's a fine performer of these works. And there's a chance to listen to a nice selection of historical German baroque organs!
Yes, but unfortunately in rather bad sound.

Quote from: Marc
Have not listened to Rogg for quite a while, but I wouldn't pick him as an opposite to Walcha.
Nor would I. Rogg is perhaps the most Walcha-influenced of all the contemporary prominent organists except as to registrations - fortunately.
F.i. for his recording of the AoF Rogg used Walchas edition (Ed. Peters).





Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 11, 2012, 08:20:06 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 10, 2012, 02:14:56 PM
Apparently, I have explained very badly my point because when I used the figure comparing "big stars" v/s "support actors", I was thinking of certain unpretentious nature ("humbleness" of intentions) of the second category. I mean, for instance, Walcha conveys a strong feeling of moral integrity, but he is not "unpretentious". On the contrary, Walcha has big plans; huge, absolute intentions. He wants to built an enormous building... And Alain, well... she is lovely in so many respects, but I won't use, for instance, "moral integrity" or "unpretentious character" as a first feature to define her style, although I wouldn't deny that she also has these features. IMO, particularly Stockmeier and Lagacé are quite unique in a certain (prevalent) ascetic nudeness (that conveys a strong sense of moral integrity too) and, therefore, I disagree this feature is shared for many other performers, especially if the counting is limited to the integral recordings.
Given your additional explanation I see what you mean, and agree completely.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 11, 2012, 08:37:14 AM
Quote from: JaapT on January 10, 2012, 02:41:22 PM
In the triosonatas I like Koopman's first recording very much (Waalse kerk, Amsterdam). I also have Alain III (less well defined sound but still good) and Daniel Chorzempa (I don't like his phrasing so much in these pieces as compared to Koopman's, Chorzempa's organ is also a bit too sharp for my taste (a Schnitgerorgan in Meppel)).  I also have Koopman third recording of the sonatas, but I find the organ too big for these more chambermusic like pieces. Koopman's second effort has some very nice renditions of some of the triosonatas. Especially in  number 6 the bass is sounds very low and not prominent enough for my taste.  By the way, there are some very nice adaptions of these works for various instruments. I particularly enjoy listening to the London Baroque (on BIS).

Chorzempa was the first to record the triosonatas applying strictly historically informed principles of articulation, e.g. rhythmic articulation. I think he sometimes sound a tad too didactic, but other than that I have no problems with his interpretation or the organ.

The London Baroque recording is also my preferred ensemble recording of these works. Another, almost equally playful and refreshing, is made by the Brook Street band:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Triosonaten-BWV-525-530/hnum/2860171

And welcome to the forum. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 11, 2012, 09:55:56 AM
Quote from: JaapT on January 10, 2012, 02:41:22 PM
In the triosonatas I like Koopman's first recording very much (Waalse kerk, Amsterdam). I also have Alain III (less well defined sound but still good) and Daniel Chorzempa (I don't like his phrasing so much in these pieces as compared to Koopman's, Chorzempa's organ is also a bit too sharp for my taste (a Schnitgerorgan in Meppel)).  I also have Koopman third recording of the sonatas, but I find the organ too big for these more chambermusic like pieces. Koopman's second effort has some very nice renditions of some of the triosonatas. Especially in  number 6 the bass is sounds very low and not prominent enough for my taste.

Jaap, first of all: hartelijk welkom op dit forum! :)

Another Koopman fan reporting. :D
Am I right in assuming Koopman I = Novalis/Brilliant, II = DG-Archiv and III = Teldec/Warner?

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 11, 2012, 10:49:37 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on January 11, 2012, 09:55:56 AM
Jaap, first of all: hartelijk welkom op dit forum! :)

Another Koopman fan reporting. :D
Am I right in assuming Koopman I = Novalis/Brilliant, II = DG-Archiv and III = Teldec/Warner?

Nope, I think you're wrong. :P

I = DG-Archiv
II = Novalis (later Brilliant)
III = Teldec (Warner)

I agree with Jaap that Koopman's recording of the Trio Sonatas for DG-Archiv is very good. Pure musical enjoyment on a very suitable instrument.

(http://i40.tinypic.com/9t3c50.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/6-Trio-Sonatas-Organ-Bach/dp/B0000057F4/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JaapT on January 11, 2012, 01:21:30 PM
Thank you for all the welcomes!!

Marc's order for Koopman is right. Ton Koopman started with Archiv, a double album (vinyl) with the triosonatas, an album with toccatas (Garrelts organ, Maassluis) and another one with some free works like the passacaglia and canzone and pastorale. Somehow he got in a disagreement and started with Novalis, which was also terminated. Archiv reissued its series in various combinations and the novalis series is now sold by brilliant. The novalis series is very interesting. Not all records are great, but I like especially the ones on which he plays on the Leeuwarden organ and the one in Weingarten. On the latter is a very spontaneous interpretation of one of Bach's Vivaldi adaptations.

A correction: I made a mistake in an earlier post mentioning BWV 551 as played by Chorzempa and Piet Kee. This should be BWV 552.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on January 11, 2012, 07:04:38 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2012, 04:50:52 AM
Hey, for all of us there's some music (or performances) we need to warm to. Carry on! : )

Indeed!  You expressed similar sentiments some years ago when I mentioned that I had finally clicked with Kind of Blue; it took me several years due to feeling the album was too mellow.  Ironically, I occasionally reach for that album while in the mood for something mellow and in a forgetful state of mind and find myself wondering what the hell was wrong with me all of those years.

In any case, I'm having no more trouble with the Walcha set and don't find myself running back to Buxtehude when in the mood for organ works.  Two things helped:  The first was lowering the volume, in spite of a strong instinct toward cranking organ discs up to a Led Zeppelin (or King Crimson, Karl!) esque level.  The second was focused listening.  Between the two the wall of sound disappeared and I heard the music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2012, 07:10:38 AM
Olivier Vernet's integral for 20 euro!
No money thrown away with this one: it's a fine and enjoyable issue.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Orgelwerke-Ges-Aufn/hnum/9069255

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JaapT on January 14, 2012, 03:33:11 PM
Not as cheap as Vernet's set, but Marie-Claire Alain's third set, on historical organs, is available for 35 euro on amazon.de.
It is a cheap edition with minimal booklet information, but the booklets of the original series can be download in pdf from the website.

http://www.amazon.de/Works-Organ-Marie-Claire-Alain/dp/B004RUF022/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326587326&sr=8-1

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: val on January 18, 2012, 01:12:21 AM
I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet, but the recent recording of the Clavier-Übung III by Matteo Messori (2 CD) is a very beautiful interpretation. And the German organs he plays have a superb sound.

Gustav Leonhardt is dead.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 21, 2012, 08:50:40 AM
Quote from: val on January 18, 2012, 01:12:21 AM
I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet, but the recent recording of the Clavier-Übung III by Matteo Messori (2 CD) is a very beautiful interpretation. And the German organs he plays have a superb sound.

IMO, Messori's twofer is certainly a worthwhile issue to have, because it's a very individual reading. And yes: instruments and recordings are great.

(http://i40.tinypic.com/2dhtbgw.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004MRX8BU

It's not my personal fave though. I prefer a more combined straightforward/introspective reading of these works. But I guess that if one likes Bach interpreters like Wolfgang Rübsam (Naxos recordings), Sergio Vartolo and André Isoir, Matteo Messori would most likely become another one to adore.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 21, 2012, 11:36:00 AM
Quote from: val on January 18, 2012, 01:12:21 AM
I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet, but the recent recording of the Clavier-Übung III by Matteo Messori (2 CD) is a very beautiful interpretation. And the German organs he plays have a superb sound.


I ordered the SACD version, which only arrived yesterday even though MDT shipped it on 1/3, speaking of the highly dysfunctional USPS ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on January 21, 2012, 07:47:18 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 21, 2012, 11:36:00 AM
I ordered the SACD version, which only arrived yesterday even though MDT shipped it on 1/3, speaking of the highly dysfunctional USPS ...

By my experience with MDT, that's not terribly late--I've had orders from the UK take 2 weeks to get to me, if they don't use air mail. 

Of course, at the moment I'm caught in a bind with Presto.  They sent out an order to me on  12/21, via something called Parcelforce Worldwide (which seems to be both part of the Royal Mail and not part of it),  but was never delivered to me (or at least I never got notice of an attempt to deliver it) although the tracking claims delivery was attempted on 12/27.  Parcelforce claims it's somewhere in the hands of the USPS;  USPS has no idea of what they're talking about.

Fortunately for purposes of this thread, no Bach is involved.

Thread duty: I finished up the Alaini II cycle last night.  I find myself less than thrilled by the chorale settings as she played them,  other than the Chorale Partitas.  Even Clavier Ubung III lacked the requisite zing.    I did like the "free form" works, however.  Now I get to wait for the Vernet to get here from JPC.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 22, 2012, 01:46:32 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 21, 2012, 07:47:18 PM

Fortunately for purposes of this thread, no Bach is involved.
:)  0:)

QuoteThread duty: I finished up the Alaini II cycle last night.  I find myself less than thrilled by the chorale settings... Clavier Ubung III lacked the requisite zing.    Now I get to wait for the Vernet to get here from JPC.

. . .  h e r   s t u d e n t, as you may (or may not) know?!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 22, 2012, 06:38:50 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 21, 2012, 07:47:18 PM
By my experience with MDT, that's not terribly late--I've had orders from the UK take 2 weeks to get to me, if they don't use air mail. 

Of course, at the moment I'm caught in a bind with Presto.  They sent out an order to me on  12/21, via something called Parcelforce Worldwide (which seems to be both part of the Royal Mail and not part of it),  but was never delivered to me (or at least I never got notice of an attempt to deliver it) although the tracking claims delivery was attempted on 12/27.  Parcelforce claims it's somewhere in the hands of the USPS;  USPS has no idea of what they're talking about.


Was your order with Presto a large order, i.e. with many CD's?  This may be why Parcelforce Worldwide was used.  I have never heard of this outfit and all my Presto orders have always been sent by Royal Mail and delivered by USPS. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on January 22, 2012, 08:54:57 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 22, 2012, 06:38:50 AM
Was your order with Presto a large order, i.e. with many CD's?  This may be why Parcelforce Worldwide was used.  I have never heard of this outfit and all my Presto orders have always been sent by Royal Mail and delivered by USPS.

To be precise, it's the largest single parcel Presto has sent to me--I've placed orders that size or larger, but they were broken up into more than one shipment.  And this is the first time it was not sent by Royal Mail/USPS.    So you're probably right in supposing there's a connection.

Parcelforce is apparently a subsidiary of the Royal Mail--?   Perhaps one of our British members could explicate that point.

Quote from: jlaurson on January 22, 2012, 01:46:32 AM
  :)  0:)

. . .  h e r   s t u d e n t, as you may (or may not) know?!

I know it now! 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on January 23, 2012, 06:08:03 PM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on January 23, 2012, 03:09:58 AM
It is basically letter post versus parcel post.  A padded envelope containing a couple of jewel cases will go via the former, a large box usually via the latter.  You hand them both in at the post office, but thereafter they tend to use separate infrastructures.  They have different depots, for example, if you have to go collect something because there's a customs charge. >:(  There's a lot of air travel for letter post even internally within the UK, whereas there's more road freight for parcels.  Parcel post is inherently slower than letter post, but substantially cheaper for large/heavy items, indeed above certain sizes/weights you have no choice but to send it that way.

Thanks for the clarification.  (In the meantime we're now at the point where Parcelforce says it's at my local post office and the local Post Office declares they don't have it.  The saga continues.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on January 31, 2012, 11:22:00 AM
I'm in the midst of disc six and really loving Walcha's set.  No more 'wall of sound' problems, though I think I should have started with the trio sonatas to get myself adjusted to the organ sound.  That said, I must ask, are there any HIP organ integrals out there, or partially completed sets?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on January 31, 2012, 11:25:00 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 31, 2012, 11:22:00 AM
I'm in the midst of disc six and really loving Walcha's set.

Groovy! (Monaural or stereo? I've the mono set)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on January 31, 2012, 12:26:36 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 31, 2012, 11:25:00 AM
Groovy! (Monaural or stereo? I've the mono set)

Stereo set, though I've also heard great things about the prior mono set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Leo K. on January 31, 2012, 02:28:38 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 31, 2012, 11:22:00 AM
I'm in the midst of disc six and really loving Walcha's set.  No more 'wall of sound' problems, though I think I should have started with the trio sonatas to get myself adjusted to the organ sound.  That said, I must ask, are there any HIP organ integrals out there, or partially completed sets?

Thanks to the recommendations in this thread, I recently decided on the integral by Bernard Foccroulle:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61WG1uaBZkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Quote...a wide variety of instruments, restored baroque organs with lots of personality, virtuosity in the fugues, gravitas in the chorals, clarity of counterpoint that does not depend on metronomic rhythms or labored tempos, interesting registrations, excellent sound production, and an overall energy and personality that keeps one from becoming bored.

I'm on disk two, and enjoying this immensely!

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on February 01, 2012, 04:00:29 AM
Quote from: Leo K on January 31, 2012, 02:28:38 PM
Thanks to the recommendations in this thread, I recently decided on the integral by Bernard Foccroulle:

I'm on disk two, and enjoying this immensely!

Thanks for the lead.  This sounds like it's exactly what I'm looking for.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on February 01, 2012, 07:30:16 AM
My order from JPC arrived this morning,  including the Vernet integral.

Which is really "Complete Organ Works Plus More", with guest appearances by Marie-Claire Alain and a few others
CDs 1-15  The Works for Organ arranged sort of chronologically, so chorales and fugues and sonatas and concertos are all mixed in together--a different arrangement from the Alain and Preston sets I already have, where everything is arranged by category.  We'll see how I like this arrangement.
CD 16 "Clavier Ubung 0" "An Album for the Young"--a compilation of pieces probably not by Bach, but by his pupils, or by colleagues or earlier musicians but  used by Bach for teaching purposes.  Mostly preludes and fugues, etc. ending with the Little Harmonic Labyrinth.
CD 17  The Concertos for 2, 3 and 4 Keyboard Instruments (BWV 1060 etc), with the solo parts played on positive organs, with Alain and others sharing the solo duties with Vernet, and the Collegium Baroque doing the orchestral duties.  Period instruments, done on the premise that if works Bach wrote for the harpsichord can be played on the piano, then why not the organ (and a further argument to back up the idea that in fact they were sometimes played on organ in Bach's day.)
CD 18  Vernet's first CD, a recital of Bach pieces dating from 1988
CD 19 a collection of works by Bach and transcriptions of Bach works taken (I'm slightly guessing here) from other Vernet recordings of various dates.

Fuller liner notes than with the Preston and Alain sets, and a rather ample description of the organs used in the recording of the integral.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on February 01, 2012, 07:48:16 AM
Any recommendations for the trio sonatas?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 01, 2012, 12:49:11 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 31, 2012, 11:22:00 AM
I'm in the midst of disc six and really loving Walcha's set.  No more 'wall of sound' problems, though I think I should have started with the trio sonatas to get myself adjusted to the organ sound.  That said, I must ask, are there any HIP organ integrals out there, or partially completed sets?

Being still a novice in the world of Bach organ music, I discovered there are various degrees of HIP. First there is the issue of historically informed playing. There are quite some of that around. Second is the issue of the use of appropriate historical organs suitable for organ music of the North German Organ School, like Bach. The combination of both is pretty rare. Ton Koopman (Warner) is one, and I absolutely love it. But Koopman's free and rather "involved" style divdes opinions. Another is Weinberger (CPO) - gorgeous organs and a very correct HIP approach, but playing that varies from quite nice to utterly dull and boring....

Anyway, a post that is IMO a "golden oldie" in this respect is the first post in this thread by one of our resident expert, premont. Can't hurt to quote it once more! :)

Quote from: (: premont :) on April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM
Que, here is my list of some HIP recordings, which are played in HIP style on properly restored Northern or German baroque organs. and which do not constitute parts of complete cycles. The number of candidates is small, - almost all uncompromising HIP recordings are parts of integral recordings.

Collections of chiefly choral-free works:

Ton Koopman 6 CD set for Novalis (already recommended by Que).

Rainer Oster 1 CD for Arte Nova on  the Schnitger organ of Sc.Jacobi, Hamburg, (Arte Nova 74321 63644 2).

Stefan Johannes Bleicher  2 CDs for EBS on the Gabler organ in Weigarten and the Holzhey organ in Weissenau respectively.
On the same Holzhey organ he also recorded a Bach-CD for Arte Nova.

Franz Raml  1 CD for Oehms on the Silbermann organ in the Church of the Court, Dresden.

Jean-Charles Ablitzer 2 CDs for Harmonic Records, France on the Treutmann organ, Goslar-Grauhof.

Hubert Meister 1 CD for Motette on the Silbermann organs in Grosshartmannsdorf and Forchheim (contains the triosonates).

Martin Sander 1 CD for Fermate records on the Wagner organ in Trondheim

Matthias Eisenberg and Felix Friedrich 1 CD each (sold as double midprice set) for Capriccio on the Trost organ in Altenburg.

Robert Clark 2 CDs for Calcante on the Hildebrand organ in Naumburg.

Choralbound works:

Orgelbüchlein:
Rene Saorgin on French Harmonia Mundi.

Clavierübung III:
Edgar Krapp for Berlin Classics on the Wagner organs in Brandenburg and Treuenbrietzen.
or
Felix Friedrich for Motette on the Trost organ in Altenburg.


The CDs of some of the uncompromising HIP Integrals are sold separately. This is true of the Haenssler cycle, the Weinberger cycle (CPO) and the Kooiman cycle (Coronata).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2012, 04:54:31 AM
I've been listening some  recordings BWV 682 -- that's is a choral prelude from Clavier Ubung 3: it's one of my favourites.

The two which I've found the most impressive are Koopman's,  and Rubsam's on Naxos. Both are contemplative readings.

According to wikipedia the music is inspired by a verse from  Romans "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." and a hymn by Luther.

Koopman really tells the story of this verse, and indeed the hymn. At the start Koopman is hushed.  The pulse is like the slow beating of a heart. There's a moment of extraordinary passion, turmoil almost,  in the middle of the performance. And the final third is radiant, peaceful.

I find it harder to say why I like Rubsam so much. He doesn't tell a story as far as I hear. He's not very colourful. He's not extrovert and impetuous like in his first recording of it on Philips.  It's just very very rapt and sincere. And when he does change registration, the effect is very powerful. It is hypnotic, a midnight listen. I can't be more articulate about it than that.

I enjoyed others of course -- especially Wolfgang Stockmeier, who's colourful and exciting, and so very much a contrast to the above.  But it's Rubsam's second and Koopman which stand out for me.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 17, 2012, 07:44:40 PM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on February 01, 2012, 12:49:11 PM
Being still a novice in the world of Bach organ music, I discovered there are various degrees of HIP. First there is the issue of historically informed playing. There are quite some of that around. Second is the issue of the use of appropriate historical organs suitable for organ music of the North German Organ School, like Bach. The combination of both is pretty rare. Ton Koopman (Warner) is one, and I absolutely love it. But Koopman's free and rather "involved" style divdes opinions. Another is Weinberger (CPO) - gorgeous organs and a very correct HIP approach, but playing that varies from quite nice to utterly dull and boring....

Anyway, a post that is IMO a "golden oldie" in this respect is the first post in this thread by one of our resident expert, premont. Can't hurt to quote it once more! :)

I happen to have both versions you mentioned and agree with your assessment.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2012, 11:51:32 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 17, 2012, 04:54:31 AM
I've been listening some  recordings BWV 682 -- that's is a choral prelude from Clavier Ubung 3: it's one of my favourites.

The two which I've found the most impressive are Koopman's,  and Rubsam's on Naxos. Both are contemplative readings.

According to wikipedia the music is inspired by a verse from  Romans "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." and a hymn by Luther.

Koopman really tells the story of this verse, and indeed the hymn. At the start Koopman is hushed.  The pulse is like the slow beating of a heart. There's a moment of extraordinary passion, turmoil almost,  in the middle of the performance. And the final third is radiant, peaceful.

I find it harder to say why I like Rubsam so much. He doesn't tell a story as far as I hear. He's not very colourful. He's not extrovert and impetuous like in his first recording of it on Philips.  It's just very very rapt and sincere. And when he does change registration, the effect is very powerful. It is hypnotic, a midnight listen. I can't be more articulate about it than that.

I enjoyed others of course -- especially Wolfgang Stockmeier, who's colourful and exciting, and so very much a contrast to the above.  But it's Rubsam's second and Koopman which stand out for me.

One thing Rubsam does in that Naxos recording is this. He finds a long song-like melody in a treble voice right at the very start. The melody lasts for practically the length of the whole prelude -- about 7 minutes.  He plays it with amazing sweep: it's as if he's bitten off the whole thing in one go.  He balances the voices so that that song never becomes obscured or confused. The entire treble voice melody is played in the same slightly  piercing registration  for most (but not all) of the prelude. When he does change the registration of that melody, the result is very poetic.

Because of this there's tremendous coherence to the performance.

There's an ebb and flow in the progress of the music, so it's as if the music's breathing.  I'm not sure how he's achieved that.

At the same time, of course, the other voices are busy doing their stuff and the resulting texture is very special to me. I want to say it's a sort of impressionistic texture (it made me think   of some of the things Pletnev does in Chopin's 3rd sonata. But I really shouldn't say that until I've had a chance to check it out. )
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 18, 2012, 04:18:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 17, 2012, 11:51:32 PM
One thing Rubsam does in that Naxos recording is this. He finds a long song-like melody in a treble voice right at the very start. The melody lasts for practically the length of the whole prelude -- about 7 minutes.  He plays it with amazing sweep: it's as if he's bitten off the whole thing in one go.  He balances the voices so that that song never becomes obscured or confused. The entire treble voice melody is played in the same slightly  piercing registration  for most (but not all) of the prelude. When he does change the registration of that melody, the result is very poetic.

This choral prelude "Vater unser" BWV 682 is a five part composition, three of the parts being a kind of instrumental triosonata (one part in each hand and a walking continuo like bass part in the pedal). Added to this are two more parts one of each played with each hand consisting of the choral tune (Vater unser) played in canon. So each hand plays two parts which are one of the "instrumental" parts and one of the choral tune parts. The treble melody you mention is one of the choral tune parts, the one played with the left hand I think, which should stand out as a kind of cantus firmus. I do not understand what you think of, writing that he [Rübsam] changes registration, as he plays the entire piece with unchanged registration. The instrumental parts may seem chaotic with irregular rhytms but the choral tune is on the other hand rocksteady as a contrast. I see the piece as a picture of our chaotic world (instrumental parts) contrasted with the eternal stability of Gods word, symbolised by the Vater unser tune (the words to the tune being a picture of the Lord´s prayer). Of the two canonic parts the upper one may symbolize our prayers repeted like we have learnt them from God, who´s word is symbolized by the  lower canonic part.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Leo K. on February 18, 2012, 07:00:00 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 18, 2012, 04:18:02 AM
This choral prelude "Vater unser" BWV 682 is a five part composition, three of the parts being a kind of instrumental triosonata (one part in each hand and a walking continuo like bass part in the pedal). Added to this are two more parts one of each played with each hand consisting of the choral tune (Vater unser) played in canon. So each hand plays two parts which are one of the "instrumental" parts and one of the choral tune parts. The treble melody you mention is one of the choral tune parts, the one played with the left hand I think, which should stand out as a kind of cantus firmus. I do not understand what you think of, writing that he [Rübsam] changes registration, as he plays the entire piece with unchanged registration. The instrumental parts may seem chaotic with irregular rhytms but the choral tune is on the other hand rocksteady as a contrast. I see the piece as a picture of our chaotic world (instrumental parts) contrasted with the eternal stability of Gods word, symbolised by the Vater unser tune (the words to the tune being a picture of the Lord´s prayer). Of the two canonic parts the upper one may symbolize our prayers repeted like we have learnt them from God, who´s word is symbolized by the  lower canonic part.

Thank you and all for this wonderful discussion. Always illuminating to read!

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on February 18, 2012, 07:09:05 AM
Quote from: Leo K on February 18, 2012, 07:00:00 AM
Thank you and all for this wonderful discussion. Always illuminating to read!



Seconded.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 18, 2012, 08:09:15 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 18, 2012, 04:18:02 AM
This choral prelude "Vater unser" BWV 682 is a five part composition, three of the parts being a kind of instrumental triosonata (one part in each hand and a walking continuo like bass part in the pedal). Added to this are two more parts one of each played with each hand consisting of the choral tune (Vater unser) played in canon. So each hand plays two parts which are one of the "instrumental" parts and one of the choral tune parts. The treble melody you mention is one of the choral tune parts, the one played with the left hand I think, which should stand out as a kind of cantus firmus. I do not understand what you think of, writing that he [Rübsam] changes registration, as he plays the entire piece with unchanged registration. The instrumental parts may seem chaotic with irregular rhytms but the choral tune is on the other hand rocksteady as a contrast. I see the piece as a picture of our chaotic world (instrumental parts) contrasted with the eternal stability of Gods word, symbolised by the Vater unser tune (the words to the tune being a picture of the Lord´s prayer). Of the two canonic parts the upper one may symbolize our prayers repeted like we have learnt them from God, who´s word is symbolized by the  lower canonic part.

Ah -- thanks premont. What I took to be a change in registration occurs at about 4'30''. But on just listening again it may well be the entry of a new voice. It's a wonderful moment, in a performance which effects me more and more  every time I listen to it.

You've got to know that I'm not an organist: I don't have a physical relationship to the performances I'm hearing. And furthermore , really, in all honesty, I'm only just  starting to become acquainted with this music.

Quote from: (: premont :) on February 18, 2012, 04:18:02 AM
This choral prelude "Vater unser" BWV 682 is a five part composition, three of the parts being a kind of instrumental triosonata (one part in each hand and a walking continuo like bass part in the pedal). Added to this are two more parts one of each played with each hand consisting of the choral tune (Vater unser) played in canon. So each hand plays two parts which are one of the "instrumental" parts and one of the choral tune parts. The treble melody you mention is one of the choral tune parts, the one played with the left hand I think, which should stand out as a kind of cantus firmus. ]I do not understand what you think of, writing that he [Rübsam] changes registration, as he plays the entire piece with unchanged registration.[/b] The instrumental parts may seem chaotic with irregular rhytms but the choral tune is on the other hand rocksteady as a contrast.I see the piece as a picture of our chaotic world (instrumental parts) contrasted with the eternal stability of Gods word, symbolised by the Vater unser tune (the words to the tune being a picture of the Lord´s prayer). Of the two canonic parts the upper one may symbolize our prayers repeted like we have learnt them from God, who´s word is symbolized by the  lower canonic part.

Appreciated.

When you think about lieder you ask yourself: how well does this performance express the  poem?  I'm interested in exploring a similar  critical approach for performances of Choral Preludes.

Only, we have no poem!


Quote from: (: premont :) on February 18, 2012, 04:18:02 AM
This choral prelude "Vater unser" BWV 682 is a five part composition, three of the parts being a kind of instrumental triosonata (one part in each hand and a walking continuo like bass part in the pedal). Added to this are two more parts one of each played with each hand consisting of the choral tune (Vater unser) played in canon. So each hand plays two parts which are one of the "instrumental" parts and one of the choral tune parts. The treble melody you mention is one of the choral tune parts, the one played with the left hand I think, which should stand out as a kind of cantus firmus. I do not understand what you think of, writing that he [Rübsam] changes registration, as he plays the entire piece with unchanged registration. The instrumental parts may seem chaotic with irregular rhytms but the choral tune is on the other hand rocksteady as a contrast. I see the piece as a picture of our chaotic world (instrumental parts) contrasted with the eternal stability of Gods word, symbolised by the Vater unser tune (the words to the tune being a picture of the Lord´s prayer). Of the two canonic parts the upper one may symbolize our prayers repeted like we have learnt them from God, who´s word is symbolized by the  lower canonic part.

This chaotic element was (from memory -- I could be wrong) interestingly brought out by  Olivier Verlet. I should listen again to that one.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 27, 2012, 02:43:57 AM
Quote from: Que on February 26, 2012, 10:11:55 PM

(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/vernet_bach.jpg)

Q

If you've gone through this by the disc, did you also find that the set get significantly better after the first two discs?

Thread duty:


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00454EM8I.01.L.jpg)
L.v. Beethoven
Symphonies 4 & 6
Fischer Ivan / Budapest Festival Orchestra

Channel Classics SACD (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00454EM8I/goodmusicguide-20)

Very enjoyable 4th, so far!

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 27, 2012, 12:11:17 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 27, 2012, 02:43:57 AM
If you've gone through this by the disc, did you also find that the set get significantly better after the first two discs?

Yes. And I mean: yes, exactly!  :o I should check if Vernet did record them in that order - he probably did - and indeed the two disc are so-so styllistically and after that things get significantly better. And the set sofar does get better and better still - even organ-wise.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on February 27, 2012, 06:19:15 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 27, 2012, 02:43:57 AM
If you've gone through this by the disc, did you also find that the set get significantly better after the first two discs?



Obviously I'm ~Q, but I've got CD 4 playing now as I type this, and possibly CD 5 to wrap up the evening.    It's too early to say whether I like this, but one positive thing is that Vernet did not record the fugues in one lump, the chorales in another lump, and so forth, like Preston and Alain II, the other full cycles I've listened to--but rather it's arranged sort of chronologically (meaning, as chronologically as possible given the limits of knowing exactly when Bach composed any particular piece).  The difference in quality you mention is possibly there (meaning, I can see why you might say that, but I'm not sure I actually agree with it--at least one more listen would be required to decide, even after I complete the first listen for the whole set), but because of the chronological arrangement, you may be hearing not a difference in  Vernet's playing but a difference in Bach's composition--if you play this set in order, you're traversing the path Bach took from young composer to full flowering, and presumably the earlier works are not necessarily at the same high level of the later ones.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on February 27, 2012, 06:34:35 PM
Quote from: Que on February 27, 2012, 12:11:17 PM
Yes. And I mean: yes, exactly!  :o I should check if Vernet did record them in that order - he probably did - and indeed the two disc are so-so styllistically and after that things get significantly better. And the set sofar does get better and better still - even organ-wise.

Q

In general, they were recorded in order, but not exactly.  That is CDs 1-3 were recorded April 95 to Jan 96, CDs 4-6 later in 1996, and so forth--but  CD 2 was recorded after CD 3.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 27, 2012, 09:44:56 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 27, 2012, 06:34:35 PM
In general, they were recorded in order, but not exactly.  That is CDs 1-3 were recorded April 95 to Jan 96, CDs 4-6 later in 1996, and so forth--but  CD 2 was recorded after CD 3.

You could be right about the bias the early composed music creates. Still, I feel Vernet grew somewhat into Bach styllistically while recording this set. It's a very enjoyable set BTW, I'm happy I got it as my 2nd complete set.  :)

After this I'm not quite sure if there would be a next one, my HIP(PI) preferences work against me in that respect, though plenty of recital discs left to piece toghether. If one one Ewald Kooiman sets would re-appear I would definitely get it. Nice would-be cycles would be with Jean Charles Ablizer or Leon Berben.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on February 28, 2012, 12:03:46 AM
After three discs I'm settling quite nicely into Foccroulle's integral.  It's not as colorful as Walcha (II), but I don't mind that, and I'm appreciating the loosely chronological approach.  I also tend to appreciate his approach to chorales more than Walcha's.  I'm looking forward to picking up the Vernet integral one of these days, hopefully after I've more thoroughly familiarized myself with my two current sets and picked up a single disc or three....On that note, favorite recordings of the trio sonatas?

By the way, I've noticed some discussion here in the past comparing Alain II and Alain III and the general preference was toward Alain II.  Does anyone care to hash out what makes Alain II more enjoyable?  Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 28, 2012, 10:14:01 AM
Do post about what you think about the way Focrouille plays the canonic variations  BWV 769. It's a piece of music that I'm playing a lot right now and Focrouille's has kind of gotten under my skin -- I find what he does somehow hypnotic, even though my initial reaction was not positive.  At first I was a bit disturbed by the relative lack of colour contrasts, compared with Leonhardt or Walcha in the same music. But now I see that as a strength.

For what it's worth the other bit of Focrouille's set which has been giving me enormous pleasure are the first few preludes of CU3 -- bwv 669-671. Of all the performances I've heard of those preludes, I like Focrouille's the most at the moment, partly because it seems the least sombre, least heavy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 02, 2012, 04:09:41 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on February 28, 2012, 12:03:46 AM
By the way, I've noticed some discussion here in the past comparing Alain II and Alain III and the general preference was toward Alain II.  Does anyone care to hash out what makes Alain II more enjoyable?  Thanks in advance.

I have most of Alain II in singles and my Alain III is still in cellophane.  At any rate, I will be just as interested to hear about the comparison ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 03, 2012, 11:31:30 PM
I've been listening to Rusbam's Naxos recording of BWV 767, which is a set of 8 variations on the  tune of a hymn by Martin Luther called  O Gott, du frommer Gott.  I love the performance.

The poem has 8 verses which are a sequence of requests to God to provide: health; action-orientation and dutifulness; good communication skills; courage; peace and  friends and no ill-gotten gains; a happy old age; a good death;  transformation after physical resurrection.

Obviously I found it irresistible to try to associate each variation to each verse in the poem. And that proved to be a very enlightening thing to do in the case of Rusbam's Naxos performance, especially in the second half of the piece.

In my opinion, Rusbam's performance in Vars 6-8 is the most wonderful representation in music of the meaning of the final three verses of the poem: endurance in  old age, the challenge of death  and the transformative effects of God's voice

If in this world I have to
live my life longer,
through many a bitter step
press on to old age,
then give me patience. From sin
and shame protect me,
so that I may bear
with honour my grey hair.

At my end let me
depart relying on Christ's death,
take my soul to you
to your joys in heaven,
bestow a little space on my body,
a grave by my parents,
so that it may have peace
by their side.

On that day
when you will awaken the dead,
then stretch out your hand
to my grave,
let me hear your voice,
and awaken my body
and lead it beautiful and transformed
to the multitude of your chosen people!


I listened to a few others of course – Leonhardt and Foccroulle. I really enjoyed them all  – especially the intimate recording by Foccroulle.  But it was when I heard the way Rubsam plays the 6th variation that I really sat up and listened.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: PaulSC on March 08, 2012, 12:17:22 PM
I've lived with the Werner Jacob and James Kibbie cycles of Bach's organ music for a while now, and I've enjoyed dipping into both from time to time. But the recent "blind listening" exercise organized by Discobole confirmed my suspicions that there were recordings of this repertoire out there that speak to me more compellingly than Jacob and Kibbie often do. So I picked up several volumes of the Fagius integral essentially for free (an even trade for a cache of pop music I no longer wanted). And then after scouring this thread for recommendations and listening to lots of previews, I just bought the following...

J.S. Bach: Organ Works (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CKNNHE/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
Kåre Nordstoga

J.S. Bach: Toccata & Fuga (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CKT4AO/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
Kåre Nordstoga

J.S. Bach: Six Trio Sonatas, Bwv 525-530 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CKFYSK/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
Kåre Nordstoga

J.S. Bach: Clavierübung III (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003KR1J82/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
Kåre Nordstoga

Bach: Clavierubung III (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0043X7UWG/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
Ulrik Spang-Hanssen

J.S. Bach: Orgelbüchlein BWV 599-644 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0032169KO/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
René Saorgin

The Bach Organ of Stormthal (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003YNV3JM/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
William Porter

One of a Kind (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003YNW0SK/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
William Porter

J.S. Bach: Masterpieces on North German Baroque Organs (http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/j.s.-bach-masterpieces-on/id339563087)
Jean-Charles Ablitzer
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 08, 2012, 10:59:40 PM
Paul, looks like an interesting list!
If times arrive, plz tell us what you think of them.

I myself remember Saorgin's Orgelbüchlein as quite a satisfying one, but it's been a long time since I've last listened to it.
Ablitzer is good, too, though I experienced him not as impressive as I hoped he would be.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 10, 2012, 06:11:41 AM
A bit of Late-night Bach this evening:

Klavierübung III with Pieter Van Dijk in the Oslo "Domkirke"
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2012, 07:43:15 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 10, 2012, 06:11:41 AM
A bit of Late-night Bach this evening:

Klavierübung III with Pieter Van Dijk in the Oslo "Domkirke"

Yes I played the whole thing through a couple of nights ago, except the opening prelude, in Focroulle's record. Very very very good. Intense, intimate, not too much  swagger.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 10, 2012, 07:55:17 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 10, 2012, 07:43:15 AM
Yes I played the whole thing through a couple of nights ago, except the opening prelude, in Focroulle's record. Very very very good. Intense, intimate, not too much  swagger.

Ah, yes, but mine will be live. :-)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2012, 08:03:39 AM
 :P
Quote from: jlaurson on March 10, 2012, 07:55:17 AM
Ah, yes, but mine will be live. :-)

Jealous. I've not been to an organ recital since I was at school.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 11, 2012, 06:13:29 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 03, 2012, 11:31:30 PM
The poem has 8 verses which are a sequence of requests to God to provide: health; action-orientation and dutifulness; good communication skills; courage; peace and  friends and no ill-gotten gains; a happy old age; a good death;  transformation after physical resurrection.

Obviously I found it irresistible to try to associate each variation to each verse in the poem

This is certainly a very valid and enriching way to interprete some of the variations.

In other cases pure compositional principles seem to decide the character of the variation, compare f.i. the similarity in texture between:

BWV 767 var.  I (called partita 2)       and     BWV 768 var. I,
BWV 767 var. III (called partita 4)      and    BWV 768 var.  3,
BVW 767 var. V  (called partita 6)      and    BWV  768 var. 5.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 11, 2012, 06:21:00 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on March 08, 2012, 12:17:22 PM
I've lived with the Werner Jacob and James Kibbie cycles of Bach's organ music for a while now, and I've enjoyed dipping into both from time to time. But the recent "blind listening" exercise organized by Discobole confirmed my suspicions that there were recordings of this repertoire out there that speak to me more compellingly than Jacob and Kibbie often do. So I picked up several volumes of the Fagius integral essentially for free (an even trade for a cache of pop music I no longer wanted). And then after scouring this thread for recommendations and listening to lots of previews, I just bought the following...

J.S. Bach: Organ Works (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CKNNHE/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
Kåre Nordstoga

J.S. Bach: Toccata & Fuga (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CKT4AO/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
Kåre Nordstoga

J.S. Bach: Six Trio Sonatas, Bwv 525-530 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CKFYSK/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
Kåre Nordstoga

J.S. Bach: Clavierübung III (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003KR1J82/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
Kåre Nordstoga

Bach: Clavierubung III (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0043X7UWG/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
Ulrik Spang-Hanssen

J.S. Bach: Orgelbüchlein BWV 599-644 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0032169KO/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
René Saorgin

The Bach Organ of Stormthal (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003YNV3JM/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
William Porter

One of a Kind (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003YNW0SK/ref=docs-os-doi_0)
William Porter

J.S. Bach: Masterpieces on North German Baroque Organs (http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/j.s.-bach-masterpieces-on/id339563087)
Jean-Charles Ablitzer

Do not know Porter´s Bach, but the others seem to be fine choices.

Saorgin´s Orgelbüchlein is very colourful (he calls himself a colourist in the booklet) and Nordstoga´s Toccatas and Clavierübung III are most impressive. Unfortunately his other recordings were OOP when I became aware of them, and MP3 isn´t me, least of all when it is about organ music. Like Marc I can say that Ablitzer is good. But I am not equally impressed by his Bach as by his Buxtehude.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 11, 2012, 06:31:47 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 10, 2012, 08:03:39 AM
:P
Jealous. I've not been to an organ recital since I was at school.

It was, in fact, bloody amazing! One of the best experiences in a long time, and well worth having the girlfriend be upset for not spending Saturday with her.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on March 11, 2012, 07:50:57 AM
I've never been to an organ recital. Honestly, I've had trouble getting into organ music. Tonight, I am enjoying a mix of Bach organ music I've downloaded (Herrick, Walcha, Koopman, Roggs, Biggs).

So here in Japan, Lorenzo Ghielmi will be giving a recital this week.
Here is the program:
JS Bach: BWV 539 Prelude and Fugue in D minor                 
      BWV 527 Trio Sonata No. 3 in D minor            
      Concerto in D minor BW V596                    
      BWV 645 - 650
                  BWV 543 Prelude and Fugue
So what do you think? Would I be a fool to miss it? 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on March 11, 2012, 07:56:34 AM
Quote from: milk on March 11, 2012, 07:50:57 AM
I've never been to an organ recital. Honestly, I've had trouble getting into organ music. Tonight, I am enjoying a mix of Bach organ music I've downloaded (Herrick, Walcha, Koopman, Roggs, Biggs).

So here in Japan,...

I thought you were from usa.

QuoteLorenzo Ghielmi will be giving a recital this week.

Here is the program:
JS Bach: BWV 539 Prelude and Fugue in D minor                 
      BWV 527 Trio Sonata No. 3 in D minor            
      Concerto in D minor BW V596                    
      BWV 645 - 650
                  BWV 543 Prelude and Fugue
So what do you think? Would I be a fool to miss it? 

I wouldn't miss it had I the opportunity. :(

Oh, and I have been to 1 organ recital so far. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on March 11, 2012, 08:09:22 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 11, 2012, 07:56:34 AM
I thought you were from usa.

I wouldn't miss it had I the opportunity. :(

Oh, and I have been to 1 organ recital so far. :)
Yes, I'm an American expatriate. Well, I think I will go. I don't know how Ghielmi ranks on organ with you folks here. I guess I wouldn't know
the difference anyway! I'm a big fan of his non-organ output. Hmm...I guess with an organ recital it doesn't matter where you sit?
Again, not that I would know the difference, but the website says the following about the organ:
"...a pipe organ produced by Koenig Company (France) whose merit is a bright, soft sound..."

 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on March 11, 2012, 08:19:23 AM
Quote from: milk on March 11, 2012, 08:09:22 AM
Yes, I'm an American expatriate. Well, I think I will go. I don't know how Ghielmi ranks on organ with you folks here. I guess I wouldn't know
the difference anyway! I'm a big fan of his non-organ output. Hmm...I guess with an organ recital it doesn't matter where you sit?
Again, not that I would know the difference, but the website says the following about the organ:
"...a pipe organ produced by Koenig Company (France) whose merit is a bright, soft sound..."

 

Well, the curiosity factor will be enough of a draw for me, as I too haven't heard him play the organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 11, 2012, 08:20:07 AM
When I was at school I was friends with an organ scholar. I'd go up into the loft and watch him play -- I used to be intrigued by the sheer amount of machinery -- stops with strange names and pedals and several keyboards. I remember a label next to one knob which said "Vox angelica" , and one which said "Vox Humana". Even now the meomory of ir revives a feeling of childish wonder.

One problem I have with going to an organ recital in London is that as far as I know the only way to know what's happening is through this website:

http://www.londonorgan.co.uk/

But as far as I can work out there's no way to find out what they're going to be playing!! I want to hear baroque or earlier or 20th century or Mozart. I don't want to get all excited by my first organ concert and find out when it's  too late that it's Max Reger and Herbert Howells and Hubert Parry on the menu. Help, someone!

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on March 11, 2012, 09:16:33 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 11, 2012, 06:21:00 AM
Like Marc I can say that Ablitzer is good. But I am not equally impressed by his Bach as by his Buxtehude.

I think you might be right there....and that means also that his Buxtehude is amazingly varied, articulated, refined and exciting IMO. But I guess that's for another thread. 8)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: PaulSC on March 11, 2012, 11:45:21 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 08, 2012, 10:59:40 PM
Paul, looks like an interesting list!
If times arrive, plz tell us what you think of them.

I myself remember Saorgin's Orgelbüchlein as quite a satisfying one, but it's been a long time since I've last listened to it.
Ablitzer is good, too, though I experienced him not as impressive as I hoped he would be.
Thanks Marc. A lot of this is still in the "interesting" stage for me too, since I've only just begun listening to the new arrivals. I started with Ablitzer, since your (slightly equivocal) comments were fresh in my mind. It's too soon for me to form a confident opinion, but on the plus side I like the instrument (by Christoph Treutmann) and how it's recorded, he has marvelous clarity in rapid passage work and contrapuntal textures, and he plays with good momentum but never sounds as if he's rushing. His fairly rigid sense of tempo reminds me of the little I've heard of Walcha and Alain; not rigid to a fault, but maybe I prefer a little more flexibility.

My other mild dissatisfaction is something I may grow out of — I'm not thrilled about the heavy use of the relatively bland, flute-y stop that I assume is what's called the "diapason". I understand it's the conventional choice in lots of situations, such as a chorale prelude where lines need to form a backdrop for some more colorful solo stop. Anyway, this is nothing specific to Ablitzer. And maybe if I had better speakers (or a listening library consisting of CDs rather than MP3s) then I wouldn't find this type of registration so bass-weak. But at this point I crave more richness in things like the opening of the big C minor Passacaglia.

Anyway, I'm very happy overall with the Ablitzer and look forward to spending more time with it. and I'm at least equally happy with Nordstoga in the chorale preludes and free/fugal works. Well, that's a slightly awkward way of saying I'm happy with everything except the Trio Sonatas, where I'm slightly less happy because I really like these to sound like chamber music, so my ideal organist would be closer in spirit to the ensemble arrangement recorded by the London Baroque...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: PaulSC on March 11, 2012, 11:55:09 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 11, 2012, 06:21:00 AM
Do not know Porter´s Bach, but the others seem to be fine choices.

Saorgin´s Orgelbüchlein is very colourful (he calls himself a colourist in the booklet) and Nordstoga´s Toccatas and Clavierübung III are most impressive. Unfortunately his other recordings were OOP when I became aware of them, and MP3 isn´t me, least of all when it is about organ music. Like Marc I can say that Ablitzer is good. But I am not equally impressed by his Bach as by his Buxtehude.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not surprised you "approve" of most of my choices, since you influenced them heavily. I'll have to queue up the Saorgin later today. A "colorist" may be just what I need.

... Which prompts the question: are there other organists who adhere to an at least broadly HIP approach, who are known for a colorful approach to Bach?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 11, 2012, 11:57:53 AM
Quote from: milk on March 11, 2012, 08:09:22 AM
Yes, I'm an American expatriate. Well, I think I will go. I don't know how Ghielmi ranks on organ with you folks here. I guess I wouldn't know
the difference anyway! I'm a big fan of his non-organ output. Hmm...I guess with an organ recital it doesn't matter where you sit?
Again, not that I would know the difference, but the website says the following about the organ:
"...a pipe organ produced by Koenig Company (France) whose merit is a bright, soft sound..."

I would definitely go for it!
IMO, Ghielmi is a fine and solid Bach interpreter. I value him more in the chorale-free works and my guess is that the final piece of his recital (BWV 543) might end up as the highlight of the concert. The other free work is partly (the fugue) an arrangement of the 2nd movement of Bach's Solo Violin Sonata in G-minor BWV 1001. In most cases, organists opt for a modest and not too massive registration. So there's probably no risk of getting blown away from the start. ;D
The Trio Sonata and The 6 Schübler chorales (BWV 645-650) and are exquisit compositions, too. If you're familiar with Bach cantatas, you might recognize some of those chorales.
The Vivaldi transcription (Concerto BWV 596) has got an intriguing mysterious echoing beginning and delivers very enjoyable music throughout.

If you'd like to check out the specific works beforehand, here's a nice free site:

http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/index.htm

About the seat you should take: that's a personal matter. It depends on the strength of the organ and also of the acoustics.
In the Martini Church in my hometown I prefer a place in the centre, not too close yet also not too far away from the organ. But I know that other concert-goers prefer to sit as close as possible. It's true, when sitting close, you can hear the switch between the different manuals better. But personally, I prefer a more 'total' sound.

If you decide to go: have a good time!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 11, 2012, 01:56:18 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on March 11, 2012, 11:45:21 AM
My other mild dissatisfaction is something I may grow out of — I'm not thrilled about the heavy use of the relatively bland, flute-y stop that I assume is what's called the "diapason". I understand it's the conventional choice in lots of situations, such as a chorale prelude where lines need to form a backdrop for some more colorful solo stop. Anyway, this is nothing specific to Ablitzer. [....]

As a child, I always loved the typical sound of the principal 'diapason' stops. To me, it was characteristic for the instrument. I only had some difficulty with the reed stops. (I must have been a sweet boy 0:).)

I think in some cases it also depends on the organ. For instance: the Schnitger et al organ in the Martinikerk here in Groningen, NL, has got beautiful coloured prestant stops. But the diapason stops of the Marcussen organ of the Skt. Hans Kirke in Odense, DK, sound too shrill for my likings, and the Von Beckerath organ in Montréal (Immaculate Conception Church) has got some very bland principals IMO. (Just mentioning two rather well-known instruments.)

For the rest, I must admit that I'm (still) not really a registration freak, not to mention connaisseur :P, and I doubt if I ever will be ....
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on March 11, 2012, 04:45:25 PM
Quote from: milk on March 11, 2012, 07:50:57 AM
I've never been to an organ recital. Honestly, I've had trouble getting into organ music. Tonight, I am enjoying a mix of Bach organ music I've downloaded (Herrick, Walcha, Koopman, Roggs, Biggs).

So here in Japan, Lorenzo Ghielmi will be giving a recital this week.
Here is the program:
JS Bach: BWV 539 Prelude and Fugue in D minor                 
      BWV 527 Trio Sonata No. 3 in D minor            
      Concerto in D minor BW V596                    
      BWV 645 - 650
                  BWV 543 Prelude and Fugue
So what do you think? Would I be a fool to miss it? 

If you're having trouble with organ phobia I recommend listening to some Buxtehude.  That said, you should definitely attend that recital.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on March 11, 2012, 07:02:18 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on March 11, 2012, 04:45:25 PM
If you're having trouble with organ phobia I recommend listening to some Buxtehude.  That said, you should definitely attend that recital.
Interesting. I hadn't thought to start with Buxtehude. I think I will attend the Bach recital.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on March 11, 2012, 07:07:37 PM
Repost of the essential part of what I just posted to the WAYLT thread, regarding Vernet's integral.

Just finished playing CDs 14 and 15 of this set, which are dominated by the Schubler and Liepzig Chorales, and therefore I've completed the "official" cycle.  (One CD, one of the extras called Clavier Ubung O: An Album for the Young, remains for me to listen to.)  Overall, I found it excellent.  Perhaps this was due to the fact that this is the first integral I have in which genres are mixed together.  My other sets, Preston and Alain II, rigorously segregate them.  The variety and chronological progression is nice, and there's never a sense (which I had at times with Preston and Alain, especially in the chorales) that something was being recorded to satisfy the recording contract,  churned out just to get the job done.   I'm far from familiar with Bach's organ music, so perhaps a more experienced ear would find things less well done, but I'm very happy with the set.  The extras make a nice addition, most notably the CD of keyboard concertos played on chamber organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scion7 on March 11, 2012, 11:55:53 PM
           clickage:

(http://s17.postimage.org/a0yv9xeb3/BACH_Organ_Works_Vol_I_Walch_LPbox.jpg)

I've got other selections by other artists on CD, but this is the one I play the most.
Recorded 1956, 1962, 1969 and 1970.  I found it on "sale" (a relative term when talking about DG Archiv box sets back in the day!),
and picked up this 8-LP beast.  Minimal 4-pg foldover notes - :( - but musically superb.  Recording quality is good throughout, with the
earliest sides being the lesser sounding (naturally) but hardly noticeable.  Walcha was a phenomenal musician:

          Classical Archives:
Organist Helmut Walcha was a native of Leipzig who was blinded at age 16 due to a botched vaccination against smallpox. Nevertheless, Walcha did not allow this infirmity to discourage him from pursuing his life's ambition as a church musician, and he entered the Leipzig Conservatory at the age of 19. Walcha's potential was noticed by Günther Ramin, professor of organ at the Conservatory and kapellmeister at the Thomaskirche in Leipzig, the very church that employed Johann Sebastian Bach from 1724 until his death in 1750. Walcha became Ramin's assistant at the Thomaskirche and made his public performance debut there in 1924. In 1929, Walcha accepted a position at the Friedenskirche at Frankfurt, where he was based the rest of his long life; in 1938, Walcha began teaching at the Musikhochschule in Frankfurt, and in 1946 he moved from the Friedenskirche to the Dreikönigskirche. While he retired from teaching in 1972, Walcha continued to work as organist of the Dreikönigskirche until his public retirement in 1981.

Being blind, Helmut Walcha memorized all of the music he played, first with the help of his mother and later with his wife's assistance: he heard each individual line of music played in either hand, or from the foot pedals—once he'd heard each part played four times through, he could re-assemble them in his head. Through this method, Walcha was able to memorize all of the organ works of Bach known in his time, which he recorded twice, for the first time toward the end of the 78 era in mono, and the second in stereo beginning in 1956. Walcha's blindness was actually an aid to his interpretations of these works as he could "see" Bach's music as consisting of individual lines of counterpoint, and Walcha focused his interpretation on making all such details clear as separate entities within Bach's general musical texture. Walcha toured extensively in Europe as an organist and frequently broadcast, but his fame spread most readily through his long association with recording firm Deutsche Grammophon, lasting from 1947 until his retirement from recording at the end of the second Bach cycle in 1971. His recording of Bach's Die Kunst die Füge from 1956, which many critics feel is definitive, was the first stereo recording made by Deutsche Grammophon.

Walcha disdained the big Romantic organs common in Europe in his time, mainly due to what he felt were their overabundant mechanisms, and he went in search of the best surviving Baroque instruments, surveying them throughout Europe. In doing so, Walcha helped set a standard for others in the appreciation and preservation of older organs, and he personally contributed to the restoration of several important instruments through playing fundraisers. Among organs he preferred were a Silbermann instrument at St. Pierre-le-Jeune in Strasbourg and the Schnitger organ at Laurenskerk in Altmaar in The Netherlands, the ones with which he made the lion's share of his recordings. Walcha also played the harpsichord and prepared an edition of George Frideric Handel's 16 organ concerti and made a realization of the unfinished fugue in Bach's Die Kunst der Füge, although he did not record it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Josquin des Prez on March 12, 2012, 04:50:22 AM
The original Walcha set has been my favored for years, but i think i've finally found a contender, that is, the set recorded by Wolfgang Rubsam in the 70s. The thing i like best about this new discovery is that Rubsam is at his strongest where Walcha is at his weakest, and vice versa. This creates an optimal synergy between the two sets.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 12, 2012, 08:01:37 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 12, 2012, 04:50:22 AM
The original Walcha set has been my favored for years, but i think i've finally found a contender, that is, the set recorded by Wolfgang Rubsam in the 70s. The thing i like best about this new discovery is that Rubsam is at his strongest where Walcha is at his weakest, and vice versa. This creates an optimal synergy between the two sets.

Say some more. Where is Walcha I weak and strong  and Rubsam I strong and weak?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scion7 on March 12, 2012, 08:29:11 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on March 12, 2012, 08:28:38 AM
I have a couple of these on CD, and they aren't bad:

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/23/249823.jpg)

BUT this CD set is much superior - the closest to the definitive Walcha set of recordings: click image

(http://s16.postimage.org/klws31okl/Richter_Bach_organ.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Josquin des Prez on March 12, 2012, 09:23:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 12, 2012, 08:01:37 AM
Say some more. Where is Walcha I weak and strong  and Rubsam I strong and weak?

As a rule of thumb, i find Walcha weakest on those pieces that require a lighter, more fleeting approach. By comparison, i find Rubsam weakest on those pieces which require more gravitas. Of course, when i say weakest, i mean relative to the other. Both sets are very good as they are.

I don't have time now but if you want i'll post a side by side comparison among selected pieces.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 12, 2012, 11:09:56 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 12, 2012, 09:23:41 AM
As a rule of thumb, i find Walcha weakest on those pieces that require a lighter, more fleeting approach.
Which works do you think of here? The trio sonatas? Early preludes and fugues?

Quote from: Josquin des Prez
By comparison, i find Rubsam weakest on those pieces which require more gravitas. Of course, when i say weakest, i mean relative to the other. Both sets are very good as they are. 
At least part of the problem is IMO that Rübsan chose an organ for this first integral which is lacking in gravitas.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez
I don't have time now but if you want i'll post a side by side comparison among selected pieces.
This will interest me a lot.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 12, 2012, 11:21:38 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 12, 2012, 09:23:41 AM

I don't have time now but if you want i'll post a side by side comparison among selected pieces.

I would appreciate it too. I have both sets of recordings and it could be fun to listen with your ideas in mind.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Josquin des Prez on March 12, 2012, 01:44:03 PM
Very well. Mind you i haven't finished exploring the Rubsam set, this is how far i got. I'll put the name of the performer i like best for a given piece in parenthesis:

B0531, Prelude and Fugue in C (Rubsam)
B0533, Prelude and Fugue in e (Rubsam)
B0536, Prelude and Fugue in A (Walcha)
B0550, Prelude and Fugue in G (Rubsam)
B0551, Prelude and Fugue in a (Rubsam)
B0578, Fugue in g (Walcha)
B0588, Canzona in d (Walcha)
B0535, Prelude and Fugue in g (Rubsam)
B0537, Prelude and Fugue in c (Rubsam)
B0562, Fantasia in c (Walcha)
B0564, Toccata, Adagio and Fugue in C (Rubsam)
B0565, Toccata and Fugue in d (Walcha)
B0532, Prelude and Fugue in D (Rubsam)
B0534, Prelude and Fugue in f (Walcha)
B0768, Chorale partita in g (Rubsam)
B0541, Prelude and Fugue in G (no preference)
B0545, Prelude and Fugue in C (no preference)
B0538, Toccata and Fugue in d (Walcha)
B0540, Toccata and Fugue in F (Rubsam)
B0582, Passacaglia et Fuga in c (Walcha)
B0543, Prelude and Fugue in a (Walcha)
B0547, Prelude and Fugue in C (Rubsam)

As you can see i still have a lot to go but this should give you an idea of how i see those performers in comparison to each other.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 13, 2012, 02:06:05 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 12, 2012, 01:44:03 PM
Very well. Mind you i haven't finished exploring the Rubsam set, this is how far i got. I'll put the name of the performer i like best for a given piece in parenthesis:

B0531, Prelude and Fugue in C (Rubsam)
B0533, Prelude and Fugue in e (Rubsam)
B0536, Prelude and Fugue in A (Walcha)
B0550, Prelude and Fugue in G (Rubsam)
B0551, Prelude and Fugue in a (Rubsam)
B0578, Fugue in g (Walcha)
B0588, Canzona in d (Walcha)
B0535, Prelude and Fugue in g (Rubsam)
B0537, Prelude and Fugue in c (Rubsam)
B0562, Fantasia in c (Walcha)
B0564, Toccata, Adagio and Fugue in C (Rubsam)
B0565, Toccata and Fugue in d (Walcha)
B0532, Prelude and Fugue in D (Rubsam)
B0534, Prelude and Fugue in f (Walcha)
B0768, Chorale partita in g (Rubsam)
B0541, Prelude and Fugue in G (no preference)
B0545, Prelude and Fugue in C (no preference)
B0538, Toccata and Fugue in d (Walcha)
B0540, Toccata and Fugue in F (Rubsam)
B0582, Passacaglia et Fuga in c (Walcha)
B0543, Prelude and Fugue in a (Walcha)
B0547, Prelude and Fugue in C (Rubsam)

As you can see i still have a lot to go but this should give you an idea of how i see those performers in comparison to each other.

Am I right in guessing that you seem to prefer the 'young' Rübsam in the 'young' Bach, with the 'old' Walcha gaining some ground in the more mature works?

Even though I personally prefer Rübsam's set as a whole, it would be an opinion that I'd understand quite well.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Josquin des Prez on March 13, 2012, 04:31:00 PM
Its possible. I'll try to continue to evaluate the set against the Walcha within the next few days. Lets see what happens when i get to the later pieces.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 15, 2012, 07:09:54 AM
piano bach, on the organ.



(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B004J80CE8.01.L.jpg)

Organic Bach (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/03/organic-bach.html)
Clavierübung II
Hansjörg Albrecht
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/03/organic-bach.html
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Todd on March 15, 2012, 07:31:34 AM
Okay, so I've caught a mild case of Bach organ music fever.  I've acquired five "complete" sets of the organ music (all with differing numbers of CDs, curiously enough) in a little over a year: Walcha II, Preston, Alain II, Vernet, and today I ordered Koopman.  So far, Vernet and Alain tickle my fancy most.  I really dig Vernet's set.  Rather than go over years of posts, and given what I own and what I like, what would make a good next step (or two).  Complete sets or individual discs would be fine.  I plan on going a bit slower than with LvB sonatas just given the volume of music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 15, 2012, 07:42:39 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 15, 2012, 07:31:34 AM
Okay, so I've caught a mild case of Bach organ music fever.  I've acquired five "complete" sets of the organ music (all with differing numbers of CDs, curiously enough) in a little over a year: Walcha II, Preston, Alain II, Vernet, and today I ordered Koopman.  So far, Vernet and Alain tickle my fancy most.  I really dig Vernet's set.  Rather than go over years of posts, and given what I own and what I like, what would make a good next step (or two).  Complete sets or individual discs would be fine.  I plan on going a bit slower than with LvB sonatas just given the volume of music.

Is more Bach-on-the-organ what you are looking for? Because you do seem rather set. Alain II, Koopman, Walcha II are all terrific (I like Vernet just fine, too; in fact, there's no set I have that I don't like... except perhaps Walcha I which I find notably inferior to the later recordings) -- and what else is there to be had?

Except of course this:

Quote from: jlaurson on October 17, 2011, 06:12:21 AM
The one disc (set of 3 discs, to be precise) I recommend everyone who wants to start on Bach organ works (and wishes to hear it) is--without a doubt--this one:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-s5R_KMii38s/TcFt9C7-YJI/AAAAAAAAAHo/DYPtumicCC8/s400/Folder.jpg)
J.S. Bach,
(Important) Organ Works
Karl Richter
DG Originals
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006ZFQMQ/goodmusicguide-20)

Mini-reviews here: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/dg-originals-review.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/dg-originals-review.html) and here:
Best Recordings of 2005 (Re-Issue, No.6) : http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html


And perhaps some Schoenberg-transcribed-Bach.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51j8vdGx3IL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Schoenberg's Bach transcriptions of BWV 552, BWV 654, and BWV 631
Christoph Eschenbach's RCA recording with the Houston Symphony (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003G6N/nectarandambr-20)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on March 15, 2012, 09:02:36 AM
I attended a Lorenzo Ghielmi Bach organ recital in Osaka tonight. I very much enjoyed it. Organ music in general is new to me. It was a real treat to be able to focus on the music without any distractions. Also, the instrument sounded great. What a contrast between Chorales and prelude/fugues. I feel like I'm really missing some of the context for this music, especially the chorales, not having grown up Christian or attended church and not being familiar with Christian liturgy. The pyrotechnics of BWV543 were dazzling. I know Ghielmi from his fortepiano and harpsichord recordings. I thought Ghielmi was wonderful but I have only my cursory listens at home to a sampling of other performers with which to compare him. For an encore, Ghielmi played a chorale that he dedicated to the victims of the Tsunami. He described it as meditative. However, as it wasn't on the program, I don't know which one it was. I realize now what a treat this was as there are no other notable organists on the calendar as far as I can see. Great performers just don't get to Osaka (and maybe not to Japan) that often.    
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on March 15, 2012, 09:11:29 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 15, 2012, 07:31:34 AM
Okay, so I've caught a mild case of Bach organ music fever.

Surprises you, how that bug can just take over!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on March 15, 2012, 09:12:59 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 15, 2012, 07:42:39 AM
. . . And perhaps some Schoenberg-transcribed-Bach.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51j8vdGx3IL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Schoenberg’s Bach transcriptions of BWV 552, BWV 654, and BWV 631
Christoph Eschenbach’s RCA recording with the Houston Symphony (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003G6N/nectarandambr-20)

The Schoenberg Bach transcriptions are great fun!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on March 15, 2012, 09:32:45 AM
Quote from: milk on March 15, 2012, 09:02:36 AM
I attended a Lorenzo Ghielmi Bach organ recital in Osaka tonight. I very much enjoyed it. Organ music in general is new to me. It was a real treat to be able to focus on the music without any distractions. Also, the instrument sounded great. What a contrast between Chorales and prelude/fugues. I feel like I'm really missing some of the context for this music, especially the chorales, not having grown up Christian or attended church and not being familiar with Christian liturgy. The pyrotechnics of BWV543 were dazzling. I know Ghielmi from his fortepiano and harpsichord recordings. I thought Ghielmi was wonderful but I have only my cursory listens at home to a sampling of other performers with which to compare him. For an encore, Ghielmi played a chorale that he dedicated to the victims of the Tsunami. He described it as meditative. However, as it wasn't on the program, I don't know which one it was. I realize now what a treat this was as there are no other notable organists on the calendar as far as I can see. Great performers just don't get to Osaka (and maybe not to Japan) that often.    

Nice to know you had a good time.

As for the dearth of organ recitals in Japan, would you mind travelling 30 Km (is that the correct figure?) for one?
http://www.bach.co.jp/MS%20Solo%20concertschedule_En%202005.htm
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: PaulSC on March 15, 2012, 09:46:13 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 15, 2012, 07:09:54 AM
piano bach, on the organ.
What's "piano bach"?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on March 15, 2012, 09:47:19 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on March 15, 2012, 09:46:13 AM
What's “piano bach”?

One of the nephews, wasn't he?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: PaulSC on March 15, 2012, 11:26:01 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 15, 2012, 09:47:19 AM
One of the nephews, wasn't he?
Oh right, middle initials "DQ"...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2012, 11:39:52 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on March 15, 2012, 09:46:13 AM
What's "piano bach"?

It's 'Soft Bach'.

Quote from: karlhenning on March 15, 2012, 09:47:19 AM
One of the nephews, wasn't he?

Quote from: PaulSC on March 15, 2012, 11:26:01 AM
Oh right, middle initials "DQ"...

No.
It's that nephew or cousin, whose initials I forgot, nicknamed 'the Soft Bach', who was friends with 'the London Bach' and 'the Bückeburg Bach'.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on March 15, 2012, 11:44:37 AM
Which was the puffy Bach again? : )
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2012, 11:48:53 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 15, 2012, 11:44:37 AM
Which was the puffy Bach again? : )

;D

Just pick one of them, it'll do:

(http://i44.tinypic.com/1evz7p.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on March 15, 2012, 11:52:25 AM
Rare photograph of "Lips" Bach:
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2012, 11:54:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 15, 2012, 11:52:25 AM
Rare photograph of "Lips" Bach:

:-*

Oh man, this thread could go outta hand!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 15, 2012, 02:27:13 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on March 15, 2012, 09:46:13 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 15, 2012, 07:09:54 AM
piano harpsichord bach, on the organ.



(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B004J80CE8.01.L.jpg)

Organic Bach (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/03/organic-bach.html)
Clavierübung II
Hansjörg Albrecht
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/03/organic-bach.html
What's "piano bach"?

Did I just betray a bias?  :D

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on March 15, 2012, 07:59:38 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 15, 2012, 09:32:45 AM
Nice to know you had a good time.

As for the dearth of organ recitals in Japan, would you mind travelling 30 Km (is that the correct figure?) for one?
http://www.bach.co.jp/MS%20Solo%20concertschedule_En%202005.htm
Oh thanks. Yeah, I noticed this a while back but had forgotten about it. Yes Kobe is about 45 minutes by train from
Osaka. 30 Km sounds like a slight underestimation but it is very convenient. There is Suzuki's cantata series there also
(the other area of Bach with which I'm unfamiliar). There are some nice concerts in kansai (Osaka, Kyoto, Kobe, Nara) sometimes (I saw Kristian Bezuidenhout play Mozart and Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin play the Brandenburg Concertos) but perhaps not often.

Yes I've also been bitten by the organ bug now.     
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on March 15, 2012, 08:45:44 PM
Quote from: milk on March 15, 2012, 07:59:38 PM
Oh thanks. Yeah, I noticed this a while back but had forgotten about it. Yes Kobe is about 45 minutes by train from
Osaka. 30 Km sounds like a slight underestimation but it is very convenient. There is Suzuki's cantata series there also
(the other area of Bach with which I'm unfamiliar). There are some nice concerts in kansai (Osaka, Kyoto, Kobe, Nara) sometimes (I saw Kristian Bezuidenhout play Mozart and Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin play the Brandenburg Concertos) but perhaps not often.

Yes I've also been bitten by the organ bug now.     

Welcome aboard! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on March 15, 2012, 08:59:05 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 11, 2012, 11:57:53 AM
I would definitely go for it!
IMO, Ghielmi is a fine and solid Bach interpreter. I value him more in the chorale-free works and my guess is that the final piece of his recital (BWV 543) might end up as the highlight of the concert. The other free work is partly (the fugue) an arrangement of the 2nd movement of Bach's Solo Violin Sonata in G-minor BWV 1001. In most cases, organists opt for a modest and not too massive registration. So there's probably no risk of getting blown away from the start. ;D
The Trio Sonata and The 6 Schübler chorales (BWV 645-650) and are exquisit compositions, too. If you're familiar with Bach cantatas, you might recognize some of those chorales.
The Vivaldi transcription (Concerto BWV 596) has got an intriguing mysterious echoing beginning and delivers very enjoyable music throughout.

If you'd like to check out the specific works beforehand, here's a nice free site:

http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/index.htm

About the seat you should take: that's a personal matter. It depends on the strength of the organ and also of the acoustics.
In the Martini Church in my hometown I prefer a place in the centre, not too close yet also not too far away from the organ. But I know that other concert-goers prefer to sit as close as possible. It's true, when sitting close, you can hear the switch between the different manuals better. But personally, I prefer a more 'total' sound.

If you decide to go: have a good time!
You were right about BWV 543. Also, I sat back and in the center (row T) and felt, without being able to compare, that it was a good choice. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 16, 2012, 01:05:12 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 15, 2012, 02:27:13 PM
What's "piano bach"?


Did I just betray a bias?  :D

No, you displayed that you are biased yourself.  :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on March 16, 2012, 01:40:07 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 15, 2012, 08:45:44 PM
Welcome aboard! :)
Well I just downloaded the Bernard Foccroulle set. I'll get back to you in a few years when I have some idea of this music! Sometimes, when I'm listening, I feel like my apartment is going to fly off the building...kind of like at the end of Willie Wonka.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on March 16, 2012, 01:49:31 AM
Quote from: milk on March 16, 2012, 01:40:07 AM
Well I just downloaded the Bernard Foccroulle set. I'll get back to you in a few years when I have some idea of this music! Sometimes, when I'm listening, I feel like my apartment is going to fly off the building...kind of like at the end of Willie Wonka.

;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 16, 2012, 02:54:58 AM
Quote from: milk on March 15, 2012, 09:02:36 AM
I attended a Lorenzo Ghielmi Bach organ recital in Osaka tonight. I very much enjoyed it. Organ music in general is new to me. It was a real treat to be able to focus on the music without any distractions. Also, the instrument sounded great. What a contrast between Chorales and prelude/fugues. I feel like I'm really missing some of the context for this music, especially the chorales, not having grown up Christian or attended church and not being familiar with Christian liturgy. The pyrotechnics of BWV543 were dazzling. I know Ghielmi from his fortepiano and harpsichord recordings. I thought Ghielmi was wonderful but I have only my cursory listens at home to a sampling of other performers with which to compare him. For an encore, Ghielmi played a chorale that he dedicated to the victims of the Tsunami. He described it as meditative. However, as it wasn't on the program, I don't know which one it was. I realize now what a treat this was as there are no other notable organists on the calendar as far as I can see. Great performers just don't get to Osaka (and maybe not to Japan) that often.    

Thanks for the report. Good to read you enjoyed it.
Would you be able to recognize the meditative chorale?

My first thought was Erbarm' dich mein, o Herre Gott BWV 721.
But Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland BWV 659 is also a possibility, with a more hopeful basic idea behind it.

Anyway: enjoy your Foccroulle set during the next years ;) .... and maybe some concerts by Suzuki in Kobe!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on March 16, 2012, 07:04:40 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 16, 2012, 02:54:58 AM
Thanks for the report. Good to read you enjoyed it.
Would you be able to recognize the meditative chorale?

My first thought was Erbarm' dich mein, o Herre Gott BWV 721.
But Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland BWV 659 is also a possibility, with a more hopeful basic idea behind it.

Anyway: enjoy your Foccroulle set during the next years ;) .... and maybe some concerts by Suzuki in Kobe!
It's unlikely that I would be able to recognize it seeing as how I'm so unfamiliar with the music. It would be easier to find out if this hadn't taken place in Japan. Although, maybe it's possible to get a hold of his email address somehow and ask him.   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on March 16, 2012, 07:13:33 AM
Quote from: milk on March 15, 2012, 09:02:36 AM
I feel like I'm really missing some of the context for this music, especially the chorales, not having grown up Christian or attended church and not being familiar with Christian liturgy.

Perhaps you'd have had a little context to go with had you attended the talk by Christoph Wolff on the previous day. :o
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on March 16, 2012, 07:51:24 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 16, 2012, 07:13:33 AM
Perhaps you'd have had a little context to go with had you attended the talk by Christoph Wolff on the previous day. :o
Yes that would have been nice. But I believe Wolf was speaking in German with a Japanese translator. My Japanese is pitifully bad and I don't understand German. Unless I'm mistaken, it was Wolff presenting on Thursday night. My friend who came with me understands German and was whispering a rough translation into my ear. Even Ghielmi spoke in German for the translator. But, when he came out for the encore, he quickly explained the dedication in English.
Gosh, now I'd really like attend more organ recitals. There are concerts here by performers who are without international recognition. I've been disappointed by those sorts of events in the past.   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on March 16, 2012, 08:01:37 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 16, 2012, 02:54:58 AM
Thanks for the report. Good to read you enjoyed it.
Would you be able to recognize the meditative chorale?

My first thought was Erbarm' dich mein, o Herre Gott BWV 721.
But Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland BWV 659 is also a possibility, with a more hopeful basic idea behind it.

Anyway: enjoy your Foccroulle set during the next years ;) .... and maybe some concerts by Suzuki in Kobe!
I'm going out on a limb here, but I think it could have been BWV 721. Now this is going to drive me a bit crazy.
I sent an email to the University of Utrecht, where, apparently, Ghielmi is currently a Fellow. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 16, 2012, 11:54:12 AM
Quote from: milk on March 16, 2012, 08:01:37 AM
I'm going out on a limb here, but I think it could have been BWV 721. Now this is going to drive me a bit crazy.
I sent an email to the University of Utrecht, where, apparently, Ghielmi is currently a Fellow.

Who knows, maybe he's willing to answer.

Here's a nice clip with BWV 721 played by some young bloke. He's playing the Hinsz organ (built in 1775-1776) of the Grote Kerk in Harlingen, NL.

http://www.youtube.com/v/XfqBVc_juLI


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on March 17, 2012, 11:44:52 PM
I've listened to the first CD of Bernard Foccroulle's box set several times. One piece that has gotten into my head is "In dulci jubilo," BWV 751.
There are some kind of chimes used on the recording. Can someone explain this? Is this connected to the use of this music in Christmas services?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2012, 01:24:33 AM
Arp Schnitger, who built this organ in 1693 (Jacobikirche Hamburg), called it Cimbelsterne.

Here's some information about this 'toy' organ stop:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbelstern

The provided eternal links do not work anymore, though. Which is a pity, especially in case of the very informative site http://www.organstops.org.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 18, 2012, 02:08:36 AM
Quote from: milk on March 17, 2012, 11:44:52 PM
I've listened to the first CD of Bernard Foccroulle's box set several times. One piece that has gotten into my head is "In dulci jubilo," BWV 751.
There are some kind of chimes used on the recording. Can someone explain this? Is this connected to the use of this music in Christmas services?

Some organs have a so-called Cimbelstern, http://www.organstops.org/c/Cymbelstern.html (http://www.organstops.org/c/Cymbelstern.html), which may (but not necessarily) be connected to Christmas music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on March 18, 2012, 04:56:55 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 18, 2012, 02:08:36 AM
Some organs have a so-called Cimbelstern-s, http://www.organstops.org/c/Cymbelstern.html (http://www.organstops.org/c/Cymbelstern.html), which may (but not necessarily) be connected to Christmas music.
Oh thanks. I get it. Hmm...This is employed on BWV 719 as well (and others I imagine). Interesting. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 29, 2012, 03:36:38 AM
I'm very much enjoying this CD from Felix Friedrich

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uMCP3%2B7cL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The instrument sounds wonderful -- noble, not too bright, not to dark and sombre. The sound of the recording is really clear and revealing. In terms of music making, he plays with enormous nobility and poise. There's often a great sense of accumulation. And he tells a story, not just within preludes, but also by the way one prelude follows another. It is, for example, completely unfortorgetably magical the way he has BWV 676, playful, airy, follow directly the enormous climax of  BWV 671.

And yet, despite the aristocratic poise of Friedrich's music making, I defy anyone to find a more poignant rendition of BWV 682.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 29, 2012, 03:44:20 AM
Is this a good one? I've been so impressed by his Mozart that I'd like to explore further, but much of Chorzempa's available  recorded Bach is of music that I'm not really listening to much  right now. But this one has some chorales and BWV 675 too

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vdBtrgrvL._AA300_.jpg)

By the way I've just mamaged to find a download of his trio sonatas record, though I haven't listened to it yet. There must be quite a lot of his Bach which has become hard to find.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 29, 2012, 12:40:49 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 29, 2012, 03:36:38 AM
I'm very much enjoying this CD from Felix Friedrich

The instrument sounds wonderful -- noble, not too bright, not to dark and sombre. The sound of the recording is really clear and revealing. In terms of music making, he plays with enormous nobility and poise. There's often a great sense of accumulation. And he tells a story, not just within preludes, but also by the way one prelude follows another. It is, for example, completely unfortorgetably magical the way he has BWV 676, playful, airy, follow directly the enormous climax of  BWV 671.

And yet, despite the aristocratic poise of Friedrich's music making, I defy anyone to find a more poignant rendition of BWV 682.

Well put. This recording was one of those, I some time ago planned - but never realized - to recommend to you, because I did not get the time for extended Clavierübung III listening.

Some others were (to put it short):

Wolfgang Stockmeier
Claudio Astronio
Edgar Krapp
Kåre Nordstoga
Walter Kraft
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 29, 2012, 12:49:05 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 29, 2012, 03:44:20 AM
Is this a good one? I've been so impressed by his Mozart that I'd like to explore further, but much of Chorzempa's available  recorded Bach is of music that I'm not really listening to much  right now. But this one has some chorales and BWV 675 too

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vdBtrgrvL._AA300_.jpg)

By the way I've just mamaged to find a download of his trio sonatas record, though I haven't listened to it yet. There must be quite a lot of his Bach which has become hard to find.

This is one of the few Chorzempa Bach organ recordings I got hold of before it was too late. On my part I like his demonstrative informed style sometimes bordering over-articulation. But he is certainly an acquired style. Difficult to say if you will like him or not.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 31, 2012, 01:16:12 PM
March 21st or March 31st?

Anyway:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MR. BACH!

In dir ist Freude!

http://www.mediafire.com/?0pafa9t4ixnt4ji

Wim van Beek plays the Hinsz organ (1734) of the Petruskerk in Leens, NL.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 31, 2012, 03:11:05 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 31, 2012, 01:16:12 PM
March 21st or March 31st?

Anyway:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MR. BACH!

In dir ist Freude!

http://www.mediafire.com/?0pafa9t4ixnt4ji

Wim van Beek plays the Hinsz organ (1734) of the Petruskerk in Leens, NL.

21st, but it's never too late. Here, it's Bach's birthday, every day!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on March 31, 2012, 09:48:43 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 31, 2012, 03:11:05 PM
21st

[non-rhetorical]Why do people keep saying that?[non-rhetorical]  :-\
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on April 01, 2012, 01:53:00 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 31, 2012, 09:48:43 PM
[non-rhetorical]Why do people keep saying that?[non-rhetorical]  :-\

Because we prefer numbers (symmetry, what it comes down to) over technical accuracy (truth), when we have the choice.

Which is to say: we prefer the continuity of keeping the number (21) over the accuracy of the corresponding modern date (31).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on April 01, 2012, 03:07:56 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 31, 2012, 01:16:12 PM
March 21st or March 31st?

21st Old Style (Julian Calendar), 31st NS; so truly, you can celebrate both days.

and celebrate all the more, because (unlike Beethoven) we do actually know the birthday
; )
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on April 01, 2012, 03:59:21 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 01, 2012, 01:53:00 AM
Because we prefer numbers (symmetry, what it comes down to) over technical accuracy (truth), when we have the choice.

Which is to say: we prefer the continuity of keeping the number (21) over the accuracy of the corresponding modern date (31).

::)

Quote from: jlaurson on March 31, 2012, 03:11:05 PM
it's never too late

Disregard for accuracy, indeed. 21st March O.S. is two days away (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=21+march+julian+to+gregorian).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on April 01, 2012, 04:06:17 AM
Aye, Nav — it drifts in relation to NS about every century (hence the Gregorian calendar reform). I should have known that the difference is greater than 10 days now! : )
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on April 01, 2012, 06:03:30 AM
I have to proclaim my appreciation for this thread. Somehow I thought I could get through
life without Bach's organ works. For a long time I avoided them. Recently, I purchased the complete set by Bernard Foccroulle.
Still more recently, I went for the complete Walcha set (since here it has been deemed "essential.")
Now I find myself unable to listen to anything else (I've taken a few breaks here and there). These two sets are really an interesting
contrast. I take it that Walcha is not strictly HIP? I find I really enjoy Foccroulle, especially what he does with the earlier output and
with the Orgelbüchlein. I bought his set because I have a mania for period performance. I have to admit that, so far, I feel a special
attraction to Wacha, in particular his Leipzig chorales. I scarcely understand the issues discussed in this thread. However, I'd like to
understand more about the instruments Walcha plays and what informs his playing. Anyway, I think this thread has pushed me along.
I'm a real amateur listener. I don't have enough knowledge to unpack what's going on with the music. But what a joy it is to have it in my life.
         
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on April 01, 2012, 06:14:19 AM
One stark contrast I noticed right away between Foccroulle and Walcha is BWV 651. The way Walcha plays it, everything is tied together - as it were.
I had an "aha moment" with the piece that I didn't have with Foccroulle. But it's not just this piece. Walcha's music flows organically. Excuse my inarticulateness.
Having said that, I find much inspiration in Foccroulle. I'll leave off now since I won't have anything perspicacious to add to this thread. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on April 01, 2012, 07:26:03 AM
Quote from: milk on April 01, 2012, 06:03:30 AM
I have to proclaim my appreciation for this thread. Somehow I thought I could get through
life without Bach's organ works. For a long time I avoided them. Recently, I purchased the complete set by Bernard Foccroulle.
Still more recently, I went for the complete Walcha set (since here it has been deemed "essential.")
Now I find myself unable to listen to anything else (I've taken a few breaks here and there). These two sets are really an interesting
contrast. I take it that Walcha is not strictly HIP? I find I really enjoy Foccroulle, especially what he does with the earlier output and
with the Orgelbüchlein. I bought his set because I have a mania for period performance. I have to admit that, so far, I feel a special
attraction to Wacha, in particular his Leipzig chorales. I scarcely understand the issues discussed in this thread. However, I'd like to
understand more about the instruments Walcha plays and what informs his playing. Anyway, I think this thread has pushed me along.
I'm a real amateur listener. I don't have enough knowledge to unpack what's going on with the music. But what a joy it is to have it in my life.
       
Sorry: I see that Walcha used restored Baroque organs (I downloaded so I don't have a booklet).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 01, 2012, 08:02:17 AM
Quote from: milk on April 01, 2012, 06:03:30 AM
I have to proclaim my appreciation for this thread. Somehow I thought I could get through life without Bach's organ works. For a long time I avoided them. Recently, I purchased the complete set by Bernard Foccroulle.
Still more recently, I went for the complete Walcha set (since here it has been deemed "essential.")
Now I find myself unable to listen to anything else (I've taken a few breaks here and there).       
[....]

Oh dear, another addict. ;)
Experiences like these happened to me about 3 years ago.
Now I have 25 box sets with more or less integral organ works by this bloke called Bach.

Prepare yourself: soon you will be hopelessly surrendered to this music.

Count your blessings. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on April 01, 2012, 08:34:39 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on April 01, 2012, 03:59:21 AM
::)

Disregard for accuracy, indeed. 21st March O.S. is two days away (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=21+march+julian+to+gregorian).


well, that's nice.  FedEx has thoughtfully scheduled delivery for my Teldec Complete box April 3.   Like getting a birthday present from Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 05, 2012, 12:51:04 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 12, 2012, 01:44:03 PM
Very well. Mind you i haven't finished exploring the Rubsam set, this is how far i got. I'll put the name of the performer i like best for a given piece in parenthesis:

B0531, Prelude and Fugue in C (Rubsam)
B0533, Prelude and Fugue in e (Rubsam)
B0536, Prelude and Fugue in A (Walcha)
B0550, Prelude and Fugue in G (Rubsam)
B0551, Prelude and Fugue in a (Rubsam)
B0578, Fugue in g (Walcha)
B0588, Canzona in d (Walcha)
B0535, Prelude and Fugue in g (Rubsam)
B0537, Prelude and Fugue in c (Rubsam)
B0562, Fantasia in c (Walcha)
B0564, Toccata, Adagio and Fugue in C (Rubsam)
B0565, Toccata and Fugue in d (Walcha)
B0532, Prelude and Fugue in D (Rubsam)
B0534, Prelude and Fugue in f (Walcha)
B0768, Chorale partita in g (Rubsam)
B0541, Prelude and Fugue in G (no preference)
B0545, Prelude and Fugue in C (no preference)
B0538, Toccata and Fugue in d (Walcha)
B0540, Toccata and Fugue in F (Rubsam)
B0582, Passacaglia et Fuga in c (Walcha)
B0543, Prelude and Fugue in a (Walcha)
B0547, Prelude and Fugue in C (Rubsam)

As you can see i still have a lot to go but this should give you an idea of how i see those performers in comparison to each other.

I prefer Rubsam Philips to Walcha stereo in BWV 768. But I love Walcha mono, which is rapt and noble and has some really tasty, fun registrations.

I also very much like Rubsam's Naxos -- I like the slow tempo. I wouldn't give up either Walcha mono or Rubsam Naxos.

Can anyone point the way to an English translation of the chorale, Sei gegruesset, Jesu guetig?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on April 05, 2012, 06:13:42 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 05, 2012, 12:51:04 PM
Can anyone point the way to an English translation of the chorale, Sei gegruesset, Jesu guetig?

Here's both German and English, although my rather weak German says the translation aimed more for rhyme than literal accuracy.

http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/track232.htm


Chorale Text German:

1. Sei gegrüsset, Jesu gutig,
Uber alles Mass sanftmütig!
Ach! wie bist du so zerrissen,
Und dein ganzer Leib zerschmissen!
Lass mich deine Lieb ererben
Und darinnen selig sterben!

2. O mein Jesu! Gott und mein Heil,
Meines Herzens Trost und Teil,
Beut mir deine Hand und Seiten,
Wenn ich werde sollen streiten.
Lass mich deine Lieb ererben
Und darinnen selig sterben.

3. Schone, Jesu, meiner Sünde,
Well ich mich zu dir ja finde
Mit betrübten Geist und Herzen,
Dein Blut lindert meine Schmerzen.
Lass mich deine Lieb ererben
Und darinnen selig sterben.

4. O! du weiss und rote Quelle,
Kühle meine matte Seele:
Wenn ich werd' im Tode liegen,
Hilf mir ritterlich obsiegen.
Lass mich deine Lieb ererben
Und darinnen selig sterben.

5. O! wie freundlich kannst du laben,
Jesu, alle, die dich haben;
Die sich halten an dein Leiden,
Können seliglich abscheiden.
Lass mich deine Lieb ererben
Und darinnen selig sterben.

6. Wenn der Feind mich tut anklagen,
Lass mich, Jesu, nicht verzagen.
Wenn ich aus dem Elend fahre,
Meine Seele du bewahre,
Singen immer Heilig, Heilig:
Alsdenn bin ich ewig selig.

7. Süsser Jesu, Gnaden Sonne,
Mein Schatz, höchste Freud und Wonne,
Ewig, ewig lass mich loben
Mit den Engeln dich hoch droben,
Singen immer Heilig, Heilig:
Alsdenn bin ich ewig selig.

By Christian Keimann, Gotha Gesangbuch, 1666
(verse 1-5, 1663, verse 6-7, 1666)   
English:

1. Hail to Thee my Jesu, Holy,
None as Thou, the meek and lowly.
Ah! how art Thou torn and hated,
All Thy Body lacerated!.
On Thy love, dear Lord, relying,
So shall I be blest when dying.

2. O my Jesu, my salvation,
Thou my heart's true consolation,
Be my guide, stretch forth Thy Hand
When I fight at Thy command.
On Thy love, dear Lord, relying,
So shall I be blest when dying.

3. Look upon my sin in kindness.
Lo! from out my night of blindness,
Turn I unto Thee, heart broken,
In Thy blood to find Love's token.
On Thy love, dear Lord, relying,
So shall I be blest when dying.

4. Well of living water, lave me,
Blood from pierced side, assuage me.
When in deathly throes I languish
Strengthen me my foes to vanquish.
On Thy love, dear Lord, relying,
So shall I be blest when dying.

5. O what kindly cheer Thou givest,
Lord, to all in whom Thou livest;
Those who tread Thy path of sadness
May depart from hence in gladness.
On Thy love, dear Lord, relying,
So shall I be blest when dying.

6. When the enemy accuses,
To despair my soul refuses--
When from this dark earth I wend
Do Thou, Lord, my soul befriend
Sing ever Holy, Holy,
Let me lose myself in Thee.

7. Dearest Jesu! Sun of Brightness,
Store of blessing, joy and sweetness,
Let me praise Thee, morn and even,
With Thy host in highest Heaven,
Singing ever Holy, Holy,
Let me lose myself in Thee.

Tr. Edith Munro Fowler
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on April 05, 2012, 10:35:50 PM
Nothing to see here; move on.

Quote from: Mandryka on April 05, 2012, 12:51:04 PM
Can anyone point the way to an English translation of the chorale, Sei gegruesset, Jesu guetig?

Why just one, when you can have them all? ;) Direct link (http://www.warnerclassics.com/sungtexts/0825646928170.pdf) to the PDF file containing the original text and translation for all some the organ chorales, from Koopman's integral. I like the format in this set, because the appropriate chorales are sung before and after the organ piece. It gives you a better grip on the instrumental work, IMO. :)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 05, 2012, 11:03:46 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on April 05, 2012, 10:35:50 PM
Why just one, when you can have them all? ;) Direct link (http://www.warnerclassics.com/sungtexts/0825646928170.pdf) to the PDF file containing the original text and translation for all the organ chorales, from Koopman's integral. I like the format in this set, because the appropriate chorales are sung before and after the organ piece. It gives you a better grip on the instrumental work, IMO. :)

AFAIK, the sung hymns in Koopman's set do not contain all chorales. No lyrics f.i. of the 'Orgelmesse' chorales and also no lyrics of the variations and partita's.

Here's at least the complete German text of BWV 768:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale499-Eng3.htm

There's no translation (yet?), but there are many possibilities on the internet to translate it in a more or less acceptable way.

Mind you: many scholars believe that Bach did not use this chorale text for BWV 768. Because of the musical structure they believe the title should be "O Jesu, du ed'le Gabe".
Here's the first verse (in German) of that one:

          O Jesu, du edle Gabe,
          mich mit deinem Blute labe,
          daran hab ich meine Freude,
          und stets meiner Seelen Weide,
          dein Blut mich von Sünden wäschet,
          und der Höllen Gluth auslöschet.


In 1989, Albert Clement published a study about the relation of text and music in Bach's chorale partitas and variations .... in German :P:

http://www.worldcat.org/title/o-jesu-du-edle-gabe-studien-zum-verhaltnis-von-text-und-musik-in-den-choralpartiten-und-den-kanonischen-veranderungen-von-johann-sebastian-bach-een-onderzoek-naar-de-relatie-tussen-tekst-en-muziek-in-de-koraalpartitas-en-kanonische-variaties-van-johann-sebastian-bach/oclc/26521693
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on April 05, 2012, 11:16:16 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 05, 2012, 11:03:46 PM
AFAIK, the sung hymns in Koopman's set do not contain all chorales. No lyrics f.i. of the 'Orgelmesse' chorales and also no lyrics of the variations and partita's.

Thanks. I appreciate that. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 06, 2012, 01:00:03 AM
So, first off, thanks for all the information.

Let's assume for the moment that the chorale is "Sei gegrüsset, Jesu gutig." If that translation is right, then this is about death. That makes me feel even more positively about Rubsam's Naxos, which seems to me to capture feelings about loneliness and consolation in death very well. Affectively, the way he plays there is spot on I think.

I seem to have an empathy for Rusbam's Naxos. Although sometimes I've felt let down, very often I find his interpretations really touching. I've by no means listened to all the recordings and maybe the ones where I felt  disappointed let me down because of me, rather than the performances -- you know, my mood, or maybe I haven't listened actively enough. Anyway I'll have to listen some more to the Naxos records for sure.

Have a good Easter, everyone.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on April 06, 2012, 05:19:44 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 06, 2012, 01:00:03 AM
So, first off, thanks for all the information.

Let's assume for the moment that the chorale is "Sei gegrüsset, Jesu gutig." If that translation is right, then this is about death. That makes me feel even more positively about Rubsam's Naxos, which seems to me to capture feelings about loneliness and consolation in death very well. Affectively, the way he plays there is spot on I think.

I seem to have an empathy for Rusbam's Naxos. Although sometimes I've felt let down, very often I find his interpretations really touching. I've by no means listened to all the recordings and maybe the ones where I felt  disappointed let me down because of me, rather than the performances -- you know, my mood, or maybe I haven't listened actively enough. Anyway I'll have to listen some more to the Naxos records for sure.

Have a good Easter, everyone.

Most of them are about death in some way. Well, many, at least. But death then was not at all what death is now... and many of the chorales of the time encourage a delighted embrace of the eternal life. Bach composed some surprisingly cheery music to death scenes here and there.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 06, 2012, 10:22:18 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 06, 2012, 05:19:44 AM
Most of them are about death in some way. Well, many, at least. But death then was not at all what death is now... and many of the chorales of the time encourage a delighted embrace of the eternal life. Bach composed some surprisingly cheery music to death scenes here and there.

AFAIK, many Christian hymns and texts still do, even today.
I began to listen to Bach's vocal church music in my early teens, and, still being a kid, the lyrics and music did not really surprise me (despite the sometimes old-fashioned way of expressing things), since I was brought up in a Christian environment.

Back to the BWV 768 issue, here's the German text of the chorale O Jesu, du ed'le Gabe.
Ten verses, which makes BWV 768 a 12-part Partite diverse with a 'preludio' introducing the melody, ten variations based on the chorale text, and a 'postludio in organo pleno'. This makes more sense than the better known option with Sei gegrüßet, Jesu gütig, because that chorale only got seven verses.

But we won't be 100% sure about the title until the handwritten original by Bach suddenly appears in some hidden archive in Tasmania.

(http://i44.tinypic.com/23mochk.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 09, 2012, 01:16:25 PM
Quote from: PaulSC link=topic=638.msg609722#msg609722 date=1331495709}

... Which prompts the question: are there other organists who adhere to an at least broadly HIP approach, who are known for a colorful approach to Bach?

Historically informed players generally opt for transparency and expressive playing (articulation, agogics) more than colour. If you want more colour you must turn to the seminformed romanticists (e.g. Chapuis) or semiinformed traditionalists (e.g. Rogg and Kraft). I think Kraft may be a good choice, even if his recordings are from the 1960es and the sound is a bit dated and also rather reverberant. Send me a PM if you want a few clips.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: PaulSC on April 09, 2012, 04:29:58 PM
Thanks for the recommendations, I'll look into them. I can listen to Kraft on the Naxos Music Library.

Actually, I'm learning to appreciate a more restrained approach to registration in Bach. And when it's color I want, I can always turn to French composers like Corrette, the Couperins, Dandrieu, Grigny, Guilain, and so on.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on April 20, 2012, 06:03:45 PM
I've gotten to the point where I can no longer listen to anything other than Bach's organ music. After spending a lot of time with Walcha (who is wonderful), I've obtained a few of Wolfgang Rübsam's recordings. I don't see how it's possible to experience this depth of pleasure in any other music. I'm just listening to Rübsam's BWV 663 this morning. It transports me! This is a serious addiction: Bach's organ oeuvre. It just goes on and on. Do I fight it? Or do I just give in? Seriously, is there any other music that reaches these heights?   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on April 20, 2012, 06:19:23 PM
Well, this is the right thread for enthusiasm over Bach's organ music, so it would not really be seemly for me to answer your question directly.

I love it all, too, and yet, I find it easy to go back and forth among other musicks.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 20, 2012, 10:41:55 PM
Quote from: milk on April 20, 2012, 06:03:45 PM
I've gotten to the point where I can no longer listen to anything other than Bach's organ music. After spending a lot of time with Walcha (who is wonderful), I've obtained a few of Wolfgang Rübsam's recordings. I don't see how it's possible to experience this depth of pleasure in any other music. I'm just listening to Rübsam's BWV 663 this morning. It transports me! This is a serious addiction: Bach's organ oeuvre. It just goes on and on. Do I fight it? Or do I just give in? Seriously, is there any other music that reaches these heights?   

Naxos or Philips?  As a Bach antedote youy may want to try his Buxtehude CD on Naxos --  the Te Deum especially.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on April 21, 2012, 01:02:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 20, 2012, 10:41:55 PM
Naxos or Philips?  As a Bach antedote youy may want to try his Buxtehude CD on Naxos --  the Te Deum especially.
I've obtained Naxos recordings: Clavierubung, Leipzig, and Schubler. I'm just getting started on these. I have the Walcha and Foccroulle box sets as well. Thanks for the recommendation. I'll try the Buxtehude recording.   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on May 01, 2012, 10:44:17 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 20, 2012, 10:41:55 PM
Naxos or Philips?  As a Bach antedote youy may want to try his Buxtehude CD on Naxos --  the Te Deum especially.
I haven't gotten to Buxtehude yet but I've downloaded some recordings from the Bach Berlin Silbermann series: Volumes 2,3,8 and 9.
I really love these. I'm enthralled with the sound of the Silbermanns. I also obtained Suzuki's Clavier Ubung III recording.
I don't know why Suzuki isn't sticking to me so much.
I think he's been praised a lot here - and I'll have a chance to hear him live on organ and harpsichord in July. I only really have subjective
comments to make here but I'm making them anyway. These days I'm thriving on Foccroulle, Walcha II, Rubsam (Naxos), and now also Albrecht, Otto,
Kohler, Piasetzki and Kastner. I've not been, as yet, drawn to the Suzuki, Herrick or Weinberger recordings I own. These days I feel like this music encompasses
all of human experience. I really don't understand how one person could have done so much. I don't know, maybe I'm delusional. But there was a time when
I tried to listen to this music and didn't like it at all.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on May 01, 2012, 11:10:57 AM
Quote from: milk on May 01, 2012, 10:44:17 AM
I haven't gotten to Buxtehude yet but I've downloaded some recordings from the Bach Berlin Silbermann series: Volumes 2,3,8 and 9.
I really love these. I'm enthralled with the sound of the Silbermanns. I also obtained Suzuki's Clavier Ubung III recording.
I don't know why Suzuki isn't sticking to me so much.
I think he's been praised a lot here - and I'll have a chance to hear him live on organ and harpsichord in July. I only really have subjective
comments to make here but I'm making them anyway. These days I'm thriving on Foccroulle, Walcha II, Rubsam (Naxos), and now also Albrecht, Otto,
Kohler, Piasetzki and Kastner. I've not been, as yet, drawn to the Suzuki, Herrick or Weinberger recordings I own.

I have most of the Berlin recordings; the Piasetzki is my favorite with the most compelling Prelude BWV 569 and Partita BWV 770 I have ever heard.  Suzuki's Clavier Ubung III is one powerful performance.  Herrick and Weinberger also appeal to me greatly, although each has its clunkers here and there.

Whenever I'm feeling down and/or on the weak side, Bach's organ music gives me a jolt of energy like no other music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on May 01, 2012, 02:36:06 PM
Quote from: Sammy on May 01, 2012, 11:10:57 AM
I have most of the Berlin recordings; the Piasetzki is my favorite with the most compelling Prelude BWV 569 and Partita BWV 770 I have ever heard.  Suzuki's Clavier Ubung III is one powerful performance.  Herrick and Weinberger also appeal to me greatly, although each has its clunkers here and there.

Whenever I'm feeling down and/or on the weak side, Bach's organ music gives me a jolt of energy like no other music.
Well, I'll keep at it with Suzuki. Weinberger's performance of BWV 589 is majestic. I'm also moved by his BWV 531 - I'm dancing on the tops of clouds to the fugue of 531. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 02, 2012, 07:57:01 AM
Quote from: milk on May 01, 2012, 02:36:06 PM
Well, I'll keep at it with Suzuki. Weinberger's performance of BWV 589 is majestic. I'm also moved by his BWV 531 - I'm dancing on the tops of clouds to the fugue of 531.

Review of Suzuki's 'Organ Mass' by a certain Donald Satz ;):

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-KlavierUbungIII-Suzuki.htm

Dunno how often I listened to this issue myself, maybe 3 or 4 times, but I found out that I was not able to 'grow' into it. These things are always difficult to explain, but Suzuki did not really touch me in this great work.

Weinberger's complete cycle is certainy an interesting one, also because of the choice of instruments. I experienced some exceptional performances and also a few (slight) disappointments, caused by a certain tightness and stiffness in his playing.

But there are so many great organists who recorded (parts of) this oeuvre .... you're gonna be hooked for a long time. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 02, 2012, 08:26:42 AM
What do you think of the idea of having the chorales in there?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on May 02, 2012, 09:03:54 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 02, 2012, 08:26:42 AM
What do you think of the idea of having the chorales in there?

I'm neutral about their inclusion.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 02, 2012, 09:06:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 02, 2012, 08:26:42 AM
What do you think of the idea of having the chorales in there?

Great.
And even more sung verses are welcome!
Although I think that those chorales should be sung after an organ prelude, like Ton Koopman did in the Leipziger Choräle (Teldec) and Wim van Beek in parts of the Orgel-Büchlein (Helior).

Another option is the recording of the organ chorales, combined with Chorale arrangements for choir, as did Leo van Doeselaar (Channel Classics). He only played the pieces from the 'Große Orgelmesse' though.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 02, 2012, 09:35:18 AM
The one I've really enjoyed (with the chorales) is Claudio Astronio's.

I don't know what to make of having the chorales there: I just can't make up my mind.

What is the German Organ Mass do you think? I mean, is it an integrated collection of pieces designed to be played as a whole? Or a collection of Chorale preludes in a range of styles?

Sometimes when I listen I'm impressed by a feeling of inevitable flow  as the music moves from one piece to the next but I have no idea if I'm fooling myself about this. There's a similar issue w.r.t. Chopin's Op 28 preludes.

(The reason I ask this is that I sometimes feel that the chorales break the flow, and I find myself impatient to move on to the next prelude. Also the chorales seem to make me listen more analytically -- and I don't really think that's a good thing.  You know, I tend to listen to how JSB has used the chorale tune. Same in The Leipzig Chorales  (where I've been listening to Claudio Astronio only a couple of days ago in fact.) Maybe the chorales would work better for me if I could follow the German)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: PaulSC on May 02, 2012, 10:13:45 AM
Astronio is one of my very favorite recordings of the Leipzig Chorales — I might go so far as to say it's one of my very favorite recordings of any of Bach's organ music. The sung chorales have never bothered me, and I don't mind hearing them ahead of the "preludes". I figure it helps ensure the tune is as familiar to me as it probably was to most of Bach's original listeners.

It's an interesting question whether Bach intended CU III as one integrated work. On the one hand, there is the framing prelude and fugue; but on the other hand, the duetti strike me as a fairly arbitrary inclusion.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 02, 2012, 01:00:50 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 02, 2012, 09:35:18 AM
The one I've really enjoyed (with the chorales) is Claudio Astronio's.

I thought you would.

Quote from: Mandryka
I don't know what to make of having the chorales there: I just can't make up my mind.

Like Don I am indifferent as to the inclusion of the chorales. I do not need them because I know the tunes so well, but on the other hand I do not think they do any harm.

Quote from: Mandryka
What is the German Organ Mass do you think? I mean, is it an integrated collection of pieces designed to be played as a whole? Or a collection of Chorale preludes in a range of styles?

It is a spiritual exercise like f.i. the AoF. Bachs cycles of works were probably not meant to be played as a whole, even if I admit that the AoF and possibly the GV may work well in that way.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 02, 2012, 01:06:09 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on May 02, 2012, 10:13:45 AM
Astronio is one of my very favorite recordings of the Leipzig Chorales — I might go so far as to say it's one of my very favorite recordings of any of Bach's organ music. The sung chorales have never bothered me, and I don't mind hearing them ahead of the "preludes". I figure it helps ensure the tune is as familiar to me as it probably was to most of Bach's original listeners.

I just meant to say that, orginally, an organ prelude was meant to 'prelude' the hymn singing by the congregation. Of course, it's difficult to imagine that Bach's extended preludes were also used for that practice .... but who knows ....

Quote from: Mandryka on May 02, 2012, 09:35:18 AM
[....]
What is the German Organ Mass do you think? I mean, is it an integrated collection of pieces designed to be played as a whole? Or a collection of Chorale preludes in a range of styles?
[....]

As such, a 'German Organ Mass' does not really exist. In this case, it's a collection of organ chorales taken from the Lutheran Mass (Kyrie, Gloria) and Catechism hymns. Some believe that the Duetti represent the four Gospels.

According to Christoph Wolff the collection was meant to present an idealized organ programme, taking as its starting point the organ recitals given by Bach himself in Leipzig; a practical translation of Lutheran doctrine into musical terms for devotional use in the church or the home; a compendium of organ music in all possible styles and idioms, both ancient and modern, and properly internationalised; and as a didactic work presenting examples of all possible forms of contrapuntal composition, going far beyond previous treatises on musical theory..

Another thing is that during the last decades of the baroque era there was a growing tendency to compose more melodic and galant music. Bach was heavily critized by the young Johann Adolf Scheibe (in Der Critische Musicus) for obscuring the beauty of music by an unnatural overabundance of old-fashioned artificial contrapuntal music-writing.
The very influential Johann Mattheson did agree with this and wrote about it, too (although not in the same one-sided negative wording).

Bach never responded to them .... but apparantly decided to let his music speak for itself, by publishing a.o. the Third part of the Clavier-Übung with first class contrapuntal organ music. In this polemical battle the treacherous easy Duetti might have played an important role, too.
Especially the Duetto in F-major BWV 803, written in A-B-A Da Capo form, might have been composed as a real 'tease'. It begins with a very melodic and harmonically beautiful A-section, completely in accordance with the prevailing taste and with the demands of Scheibe and Mattheson, but then Bach is deliberately 'ruining' everything in the B-section with heavy contrapuntal writing and wrenching harmonies.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 02, 2012, 01:08:45 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 02, 2012, 07:57:01 AM
Dunno how often I listened to this issue myself, maybe 3 or 4 times, but I found out that I was not able to 'grow' into it. These things are always difficult to explain, but Suzuki did not really touch me in this great work.

I share your opinion about Suzuki´s CÜ III. I never warmed to it, finding him cold and aloft, and the organ he uses is nothing to write home about. His Sweelinck organ recording is equally cold, while his Buxtehude organ recording is more interesting. This is like a less "naughty" variety of his teacher Koopman´s Buxtehude.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 02, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 02, 2012, 01:08:45 PM
I share your opinion about Suzuki´s CÜ III. I never warmed to it, finding him cold and aloft, and the organ he uses is nothing to write home about. His Sweelinck organ recording is equally cold, while his Buxtehude organ recording is more interesting. This is like a less "naughty" variety of his teacher Koopman´s Buxtehude.

I'm not sure about the organ, I prefer it f.i. to the Marcussen of Odense (used in Bowyer's integral). But with the Suzuki 2-cd, there's something about the recording which might be related to the acoustics of the Tokyo University Hall, combined with the choices of the production/engineering team (?): it just sounds cold, as if it were recorded in a freezing cold storage cellar.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 02, 2012, 01:22:51 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 02, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
I'm not sure about the organ, I prefer it f.i. to the Marcussen of Odense (used in Bowyer's integral). But with the Suzuki 2-cd, there's something about the recording which might be related to the acoustics of the Tokyo University Hall, combined with the choices of the production/engineering team (?): it just sounds cold, as if it were recorded in a freezing cold storage cellar.

Oh yes, and I also prefer it to the Beckerath organ Lagacé uses for his Bach integral. But the main problem is Suzuki´s way of playing I think.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on May 03, 2012, 12:27:43 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 02, 2012, 01:06:09 PM
I just meant to say that, orginally, an organ prelude was meant to 'prelude' the hymn singing by the congregation. Of course, it's difficult to imagine that Bach's extended preludes were also used for that practice .... but who knows ....

As such, a 'German Organ Mass' does not really exist. In this case, it's a collection of organ chorales taken from the Lutheran Mass (Kyrie, Gloria) and Catechism hymns. Some believe that the Duetti represent the four Gospels.

According to Christoph Wolff the collection was meant to present an idealized organ programme, taking as its starting point the organ recitals given by Bach himself in Leipzig; a practical translation of Lutheran doctrine into musical terms for devotional use in the church or the home; a compendium of organ music in all possible styles and idioms, both ancient and modern, and properly internationalised; and as a didactic work presenting examples of all possible forms of contrapuntal composition, going far beyond previous treatises on musical theory..

Another thing is that during the last decades of the baroque era there was a growing tendency to compose more melodic and galant music. Bach was heavily critized by the young Johann Adolf Scheibe (in Der Critische Musicus) for obscuring the beauty of music by an unnatural overabundance of old-fashioned artificial contrapuntal music-writing.
The very influential Johann Mattheson did agree with this and wrote about it, too (although not in the same one-sided negative wording).

Bach never responded to them .... but apparantly decided to let his music speak for itself, by publishing a.o. the Third part of the Clavier-Übung with first class contrapuntal organ music. In this polemical battle the treacherous easy Duetti might have played an important role, too.
Especially the Duetto in F-major BWV 803, written in A-B-A Da Capo form, might have been composed as a real 'tease'. It begins with a very melodic and harmonically beautiful A-section, completely in accordance with the prevailing taste and with the demands of Scheibe and Mattheson, but then Bach is deliberately 'ruining' everything in the B-section with heavy contrapuntal writing and wrenching harmonies.
This is fascinating stuff. I was recently looking at a website on which people were saying that Bach was just doing his job whereas Beethoven was making art. This seems incoherent since Beethoven's notions of the artist come out of a romantic discourse that perhaps didn't exist in Bach's time. But I'm curious if Bach was concerned with his legacy the way later composers would have been. Did Bach have an idea that people would be interested in his music 250 years later the way Beethoven might have? Did He have the same sense of his importance? I take it he worked on the AOF up until the time he died. That certainly wasn't a commission...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2012, 02:53:36 AM
Quote from: milk on May 03, 2012, 12:27:43 AM
This is fascinating stuff. I was recently looking at a website on which people were saying that Bach was just doing his job whereas Beethoven was making art. This seems incoherent since Beethoven's notions of the artist come out of a romantic discourse that perhaps didn't exist in Bach's time. But I'm curious if Bach was concerned with his legacy the way later composers would have been. Did Bach have an idea that people would be interested in his music 250 years later the way Beethoven might have? Did He have the same sense of his importance? I take it he worked on the AOF up until the time he died. That certainly wasn't a commission...

Short reaction, I'm at the office right now.
Even if you put aside the notion of a certain 'legacy awareness' in Bach's mind, I personally do not agree at all with the idea that doing one's job is the same as just doing one's job. If your job is composing music, and you're doing a mighty fine job in doing so, then there's no reason to add this more or less derogatory adverb.

Maybe the Bach-related articles and books in the former German 'Democratic' Republic were right after all: Bach was a working class hero!! :P ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on May 03, 2012, 07:35:25 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 03, 2012, 02:53:36 AM
Short reaction, I'm at the office right now.
Even if you put aside the notion of a certain 'legacy awareness' in Bach's mind, I personally do not agree at all with the idea that doing one's job is the same as just doing one's job. If your job is composing music, and you're doing a mighty fine job in doing so, then there's no reason to add this more or less derogatory adverb.

Maybe the Bach-related articles and books in the former German 'Democratic' Republic were right after all: Bach was a working class hero!! :P ;)
Yes that makes sense. Thanks for responding. Perhaps it's even frivolous to wonder what was in Bach's mind. Recently, I struggle with the lack of expressing certain things in words. And then I turn to Bach and find solace.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2012, 11:20:35 AM
Quote from: milk on May 03, 2012, 07:35:25 AM
Yes that makes sense. Thanks for responding. Perhaps it's even frivolous to wonder what was in Bach's mind.

It's frivolous maybe, but not forbidden of course.
Trying to explain something about the true reasons for the publication of the 'Organ Mass', like I did yesterday, could be called frivolous, too. ;)
(And even presumptuous.)

Besides that: personally, I think that Bach knew that his music was good enough .... of course all with the help of God.

He tried to get some of his music published. He was asked to compose music for rulers and noblemen, and he provided f.i. two carefully written-out manuscripts of resp. the Matthäus-Passion and the h-moll Messe, probably because he was proud of them and maybe also hoping that it would be preserved a long time and perhaps even be executed in the future.

Quote from: milk
Recently, I struggle with the lack of expressing certain things in words. And then I turn to Bach and find solace.

You're not alone.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2012, 10:42:21 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 02, 2012, 01:06:09 PM
According to Christoph Wolff the collection was meant to present an idealized organ programme, taking as its starting point the organ recitals given by Bach himself in Leipzig; a practical translation of Lutheran doctrine into musical terms for devotional use in the church or the home; a compendium of organ music in all possible styles and idioms, both ancient and modern, and properly internationalised; and as a didactic work presenting examples of all possible forms of contrapuntal composition, going far beyond previous treatises on musical theory..

Michael Ferguson has written something similar about the AoF, which should be an idealized example of the organ recitals Bach gave on newly built organs, when he tested them and improvised fugues upon a musical subject for about an hour or so.

But the CÜ III and the AoF are collections and was not intended to be performed in sequence - not even in theory, in the same way as the WTC or the six organ triosonatas was not intended for sequential performance. In our age of completeness a CD set with the CÜ III or the AoF constitutes in the same way a kind of collection, not necessarily meant to be played in sequence at one sitting. Just like the scores permit the performer to choose from the collections what he wants to play, we can choose from the CD what we want to hear.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 15, 2012, 11:46:05 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 02, 2012, 08:26:42 AM
What do you think of the idea of having the chorales in there?

Quote from: Marc on May 02, 2012, 09:06:18 AM
Great.
And even more sung verses are welcome!
Although I think that those chorales should be sung after an organ prelude, like Ton Koopman did in the Leipziger Choräle (Teldec) and Wim van Beek in parts of the Orgel-Büchlein (Helior).

Another option is the recording of the organ chorales, combined with Chorale arrangements for choir, as did Leo van Doeselaar (Channel Classics). He only played the pieces from the 'Große Orgelmesse' though.

And very beautifully sung chorales can be found here:

(http://i46.tinypic.com/34f0h9s.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Clavier-%C3%9Cbung-Koito-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B000VVBDK4

Unfortunately, Kei Koïto's playing is not convincing enough (sometimes even way too mannered) to really enjoy this issue.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 15, 2012, 11:49:22 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 02, 2012, 01:06:09 PM
According to Christoph Wolff the collection was meant to present an idealized organ programme, taking as its starting point the organ recitals given by Bach himself in Leipzig; a practical translation of Lutheran doctrine into musical terms for devotional use in the church or the home; a compendium of organ music in all possible styles and idioms, both ancient and modern, and properly internationalised; and as a didactic work presenting examples of all possible forms of contrapuntal composition, going far beyond previous treatises on musical theory..

Quote from: (: premont :) on May 15, 2012, 10:42:21 AM
Michael Ferguson has written something similar about the AoF, which should be an idealized example of the organ recitals Bach gave on newly built organs, when he tested them and improvised fugues upon a musical subject for about an hour or so.

But the CÜ III and the AoF are collections and was not intended to be performed in sequence - not even in theory, in the same way as the WTC or the six organ triosonatas was not intended for sequential performance. In our age of completeness a CD set with the CÜ III or the AoF constitutes in the same way a kind of collection, not necessarily meant to be played in sequence at one sitting. Just like the scores permit the performer to choose from the collections what he wants to play, we can choose from the CD what we want to hear.

Just a little ADD-IT: in the quotation, I might have swapped Peter Williams for Christoph Wolff.
For the rest: even though these works weren't meant to be played in one sequence .... it never bores me to listen to the entire pieces. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2012, 01:22:56 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 15, 2012, 11:49:22 AM
Just a little ADD-IT: in the quotation, I might have swapped Peter Williams for Christoph Wolff.

Oh, they are like night and day.

Quote from: Marc
For the rest: even though these works weren't meant to be played in one sequence .... it never bores me to listen to the entire pieces. :)

This was not my point. Even I listen to the entire work in sequence sometimes, but more often I listen to the prel.and fugue first, then the great chorales, then the small chorales and at last the duets - but that is just me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 15, 2012, 09:26:03 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 15, 2012, 01:22:56 PM
This was not my point.

I KNOW!

;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 16, 2012, 07:41:51 AM
There are some interesting issues around here. When you listen to CU3 or AoF you're listening to the music through the prism of interpretation. And the interpretation may use Bach's music to express something which needs the whole thing. I think Rubsam's AoF is like that. And maybe Friedrich's CU3.

To use Leonhardt's concepts, the latent text may spread across all the music in Rubsam's  AoF, and indeed unite integrate it. It may even give it a complex structure, with climaxes etc.

It's not a question of the original function of the music, or indeed the primary intention of JSB. In organ music, and especially in AoF, where there is so much interpretative discretion, it's maybe not surprising that imaginative performers sometimes use the music to express ideas. 

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 20, 2012, 10:42:32 AM
Enjoying Bach's organ again .... but it's a pity that this Denon (re-)issue got OOP:

(http://i49.tinypic.com/33a5j5y.jpg)

Some of Bach's greatest hits (BWV 565, 543, 582, 542, 653 & 767), very convincingly played by Heinz Balli on the formidable Thomas Schott organ (Anno Domini 1630) of the Klosterkirche in Muri, Aargau, Switzerland. Great sound quality!

Here and there 2nd hand copies can be found though:

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Masterpieces-Organ-Heinz/dp/B000PHDNI4/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Meisterwerke-f%C3%BCr-Orgel-Heinz-Balli/dp/B000025Y40/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 20, 2012, 12:21:34 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 20, 2012, 10:42:32 AM

Some of Bach's greatest hits (BWV 565, 543, 582, 542, 653 & 767), very convincingly played by Heinz Balli on the formidable Thomas Schott organ (Anno Domini 1630) of the Klosterkirche in Muri, Aargau, Switzerland. Great sound quality!

Here and there 2nd hand copies can be found though:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Meisterwerke-f%C3%BCr-Orgel-Heinz-Balli/dp/B000025Y40/

Thanks. I have ordered an AmazonMP item.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 22, 2012, 11:22:29 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 20, 2012, 12:21:34 PM
Thanks. I have ordered an AmazonMP item.

I am, as always, interested in your opinion.

We'll meet again .... ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 23, 2012, 03:39:26 AM
Heard a ghastly organ recital on the Dresden Court Church's Silbermann organ... poor instrument.
But today I strolled in and happened upon a recital of the church's organist -- and how glorious it was, indeed.

(https://p.twimg.com/Atk7ASXCIAE2NNv.jpg:large)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 23, 2012, 05:44:11 AM


Notes from the 2012 Dresden Music Festival ( 2 )
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IUbUdRChWCQ/T7yS92NSuXI/AAAAAAAACA0/DaOD9FI901I/s1600/notes-from-the-dresden-music-festival4.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qhbM6rqve4c/T7zgSvojt8I/AAAAAAAACBo/eKAuBE08-Yc/s1600/Silbermann-Orgel-Hofkirche-Dresden-detail.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/notes-from-2012-dresden-music-festival_23.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/notes-from-2012-dresden-music-festival_23.html)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 23, 2012, 10:20:58 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 23, 2012, 03:39:26 AM
Heard a ghastly organ recital on the Dresden Court Church's Silbermann organ... poor instrument.
But today I strolled in and happened upon a recital of the church's organist -- and how glorious it was, indeed.

Jens, good for you  to give the instrument a 2n chance! :)

Spatial acoustics there, from what I hear on disc(s). To fully adapt to that, I guess organists need to do some solid practising beforehand.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 24, 2012, 10:38:57 PM
A 'heavy' beginning of this Friday with listening to Bach's Toccatas, played by Ewald Kooiman on the famous Müller organ of the Sint Bavokerk, Haarlem, NL.

BWV 565 just finished, joyously played in true stile fantastico and now both organist and instrument are giving it all for BWV 566a (C-Major version).

IINM, Kooiman's 3rd integral (for Aeolus), played on baroque organs of the Alsace (France), which was brought to a standstill due to his unexpected death in January 2009, is still on for release. It's finished by Kooiman's pupils Gerhard Gnann, Ute Gremmel-Geuchen and Berhard Klapprott. It appeared there was some delay (a.o. whilst writing and preparing the booklets), but hopefully the 19cd-boxset will be out this year. It will contain 8 discs by Kooiman and 11 by his pupils. Certainly a release to look forward to!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 06, 2012, 12:55:02 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 22, 2012, 11:22:29 AM
I am, as always, interested in your opinion.

We'll meet again .... ;)

Now having recieved Heinz Balli´ BachCD and having listened to it a couple of times, I conclude, that this is the sonically best recording of the Schott organ in Muri, I have heard, and it reveals that this organ is very well suitable for Bach´s organ works, when the right man sits at the keyboards. I would characterise the style of the interpretation as compact and a bit strict - it comes as no surprise to me, that Balli (born 1941) is a pupil of Marie-Claire Alain and Anton Heiller - I have heard Heiller in a recital in Copenhagen (ca 1970) playing the BWV 542 and 582 in as well as the same manner, which implies the use of plenum sound throughout with a minimum of stop changes and rather metrical tempo except for the conventional end-rubato. In the choralfree works I appreciate the high degee of monumentality of the gotic cathedral variety Balli achieves, and which is at least comparable to his teachers. In BWV 767 he displays of course the more soft stops of the organ, but I do not find his playing more flexible for that reason. Thanks for leading me to this recording, which I consider a valuable addition to my Bach organ collection.   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: North Star on June 06, 2012, 01:01:22 PM
80 pages seems to be a long read; Marc, Premont, and others, too, what recordings would you recommend, in the HIP vein?


Thanks in advance, Karlo
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on June 06, 2012, 01:11:55 PM
Quote from: North Star on June 06, 2012, 01:01:22 PM
80 pages seems to be a long read; Marc, Premont, and others, too, what recordings would you recommend, in the HIP vein?

Of Bach's works? Complete? Specific ones? HIP playing, Historical Instruments? Both?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 06, 2012, 01:15:20 PM
Quote from: North Star on June 06, 2012, 01:01:22 PM
80 pages seems to be a long read; Marc, Premont, and others, too, what recordings would you recommend, in the HIP vein?


Thanks in advance, Karlo

Complete sets or individual CDs?

As to complete sets I favour some OOP recordings (Kooiman 2 and Beekman), but also the integrals of Foccroulle and Vernet.
As to individual CDs: see my first post in this thread.
However, I do not think you will regret the reading of the complete thread.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: North Star on June 06, 2012, 01:23:53 PM
Thanks, I will certainly read the thread when I have time.
Jens: preferably both, HIP playing and instruments.

Complete set would probably be a good way to go since I don't know this repertoire apart from a couple of the most famous ones.
Premont: Foccroulle & Vernet seem to be available for decent prices, I'll probably buy one of those, but will be reading the thread more first. Thanks very much.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 06, 2012, 08:00:13 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 06, 2012, 12:55:02 PM
Now having recieved Heinz Balli´ BachCD and having listened to it a couple of times, I conclude, that this is the sonically best recording of the Schott organ in Muri, I have heard, and it reveals that this organ is very well suitable for Bach´s organ works, when the right man sits at the keyboards. I would characterise the style of the interpretation as compact and a bit strict - it comes as no surprise to me, that Balli (born 1941) is a pupil of Marie-Claire Alain and Anton Heiller - I have heard Heiller in a recital in Copenhagen (ca 1970) playing the BWV 542 and 582 in as well as the same manner, which implies the use of plenum sound throughout with a minimum of stop changes and rather metrical tempo except for the conventional end-rubato. In the choralfree works I appreciate the high degee of monumentality of the gotic cathedral variety Balli achieves, and which is at least comparable to his teachers. In BWV 767 he displays of course the more soft stops of the organ, but I do not find his playing more flexible for that reason. Thanks for leading me to this recording, which I consider a valuable addition to my Bach organ collection.

At your service and thanks for the informative review. I absolutely agree with the Heiller connection.
And yes, although I do prefer a more flexible Bach (Kooiman, Foccroulle f.i.), I certainly have got a weak spot for the bold approach, too!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 06, 2012, 08:09:44 PM
Quote from: North Star on June 06, 2012, 01:23:53 PM
Thanks, I will certainly read the thread when I have time.
Jens: preferably both, HIP playing and instruments.

Complete set would probably be a good way to go since I don't know this repertoire apart from a couple of the most famous ones.
Premont: Foccroulle & Vernet seem to be available for decent prices, I'll probably buy one of those, but will be reading the thread more first. Thanks very much.

Considering your preference for HIP, I would go for Foccroulle. Trustworthy playing on beautiful historic instruments. Vernet's a nice add-on after that, with a good taste in picking the modern instruments (combined with some nice true oldies). And his playing, though a bit uneven from time to time, provides interesting listening.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: North Star on June 06, 2012, 11:40:57 PM
Quote from: Marc on June 06, 2012, 08:09:44 PM
Considering your preference for HIP, I would go for Foccroulle. Trustworthy playing on beautiful historic instruments. Vernet's a nice add-on after that, with a good taste in picking the modern instruments (combined with some nice true oldies). And his playing, though a bit uneven from time to time, provides interesting listening.
Thanks, Marc.
I've been sampling these two from Spotify - all of the Vernet is there, and AoF & Toccatas & Fantasias from Foccroulle. 8)
I do like both of them, but perhaps Foccroulle more. I'll have to do some more listening and reading, but I'll probably go with Focroulle.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on June 07, 2012, 01:07:15 AM
Quote from: North Star on June 06, 2012, 11:40:57 PM
Thanks, Marc.
I've been sampling these two from Spotify - all of the Vernet is there, and AoF & Toccatas & Fantasias from Foccroulle. 8)
I do like both of them, but perhaps Foccroulle more. I'll have to do some more listening and reading, but I'll probably go with Focroulle.

The Silbermann Organ cycle on Berlin Classics is "HIP" in its very own way -- one of continuous tradition (rather than re-invention of HIPness) and due to the natural limits the instruments impose (although all the Silbermann organs have changed over time, renovated but usually also pitch-adjusted....

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000TGF1G8.01.L.jpg)
J.S.Bach,
Organ Works,
performed on Silbermann Organs
Berlin Classics

UK Link
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000TGF1G8/seenandheard-21)

Some of them have since been restored, including the laborious process of tuning them down to original pitch & temperament -- which you can see on this picture I took of the only surviving (?) Silbermann organ in Dresden at the Court Chapel. The light tips of the pipes were all soldered on at its last refitting a few years back.

(http://www.seenandheard-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Silbermann-Orgel-Hofkirche-Dresden-detail-tuning.jpg)

The playing on the cycle (in any case not as readily available as it used to be, and therefore not any longer as dirt cheap as it once was) is more varied than on many other sets, but I find it curiously delightful and stimulating.

If you can sample it (Spotify should have everything), listen to Koopman (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001R3YJS8/seenandheard-21). Hardly less HIP than Vernet, more consistent, and I know I'd fish for that one from my collection in that 'house on fire' before I'd go for Vernet. I also have a huge soft-spot for Lionel Rogg (III) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000027OAA/seenandheard-21) but I'm not sure if I can justify that in purely musical terms. Not yet, at any rate.

(https://fbcdn_sphotos_a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/526075_10150861096597989_667122729_n.jpg)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: North Star on June 07, 2012, 02:45:44 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 07, 2012, 01:07:15 AM
The Silbermann Organ cycle on Berlin Classics is "HIP" in its very own way -- one of continuous tradition (rather than re-invention of HIPness) and due to the natural limits the instruments impose (although all the Silbermann organs have changed over time, renovated but usually also pitch-adjusted....

Some of them have since been restored, including the laborious process of tuning them down to original pitch & temperament -- which you can see on this picture I took of the only surviving (?) Silbermann organ in Dresden at the Court Chapel. The light tips of the pipes were all soldered on at its last refitting a few years back.

The playing on the cycle (in any case not as readily available as it used to be, and therefore not any longer as dirt cheap as it once was) is more varied than on many other sets, but I find it curiously delightful and stimulating.

If you can sample it (Spotify should have everything), listen to Koopman (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001R3YJS8/seenandheard-21). Hardly less HIP than Vernet, more consistent, and I know I'd fish for that one from my collection in that 'house on fire' before I'd go for Vernet. I also have a huge soft-spot for Lionel Rogg (III) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000027OAA/seenandheard-21) but I'm not sure if I can justify that in purely musical terms. Not yet, at any rate.

Thanks, the Silbermann cycle is in Spotify, and some I found some Koopman there as well. These should keep me busy for a while  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 07, 2012, 09:34:42 AM
Quote from: North Star on June 07, 2012, 02:45:44 AM
Thanks, the Silbermann cycle is in Spotify, and some I found some Koopman there as well. These should keep me busy for a while  :)

The former East German cycle on Berlin Classics is not HIP. The interpretations are charming but rather traditional post organ movement products. If it were HIP, Walcha, Richter, Wunderlich, Kraft, Stockmeier and many others would be HIP too.

I forgot that Vernet uses modern organs for some of his set. However his playing is HIP, but even I would probably prefer Foccroulle to Vernet.

Koopman is take it or leave it, - you have to get accustomed to his in between superfluous extravagancies.  He may become anything from your most preferred performer to your least preferred performer. Listen carefully to him before you get his set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: North Star on June 07, 2012, 12:24:12 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 07, 2012, 09:34:42 AM
The former East German cycle on Berlin Classics is not HIP. The interpretations are charming but rather traditional post organ movement products. If it were HIP, Walcha, Richter, Wunderlich, Kraft, Stockmeier and many others would be HIP too.

I forgot that Vernet uses modern organs for some of his set. However his playing is HIP, but even I would probably prefer Foccroulle to Vernet.

Koopman is take it or leave it, - you have to get accustomed to his in between superfluous extravagancies.  He may become anything from your most preferred performer to your least preferred performer. Listen carefully to him before you get his set.

Cheers, Premont. Yeah I saw it's not HIP, but I guess it won't hurt too much to listen to a free sample.
Besides, the Foccroulle is coming from Spain  8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on June 12, 2012, 12:41:18 AM
BWV 676

Quote from: (: premont :) on June 07, 2012, 09:34:42 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 07, 2012, 01:07:15 AM
The Silbermann Organ cycle on Berlin Classics is "HIP" in its very own way -- one of continuous tradition (rather than re-invention of HIPness) and due to the natural limits the instruments impose (although all the Silbermann organs have changed over time, renovated but usually also pitch-adjusted....

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000TGF1G8.01.L.jpg)
J.S.Bach,
Organ Works,
performed on Silbermann Organs
Berlin Classics

UK Link
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000TGF1G8/seenandheard-21)

The playing on the cycle (in any case not as readily available as it used to be, and therefore not any longer as dirt cheap as it once was) is more varied than on many other sets, but I find it curiously delightful and stimulating.

The former East German cycle on Berlin Classics is ... charming but [a] rather traditional post organ movement products.

Speaking of which -- anyone notice that in the Organ Mass Christoph Albrecht's  "Allein Gott in der Hoeh sei Erh, BWV 676 (track 6, CD 3)) is a debilitating mess that sounds more like a bleed-in from another track, at a different pitch, than the real thing? Had to listen to the clear lines of Kare Nordstoga (Lawo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003KR1J82/goodmusicguide-20)) to recover. Even Hurford (Decca (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041KD/goodmusicguide-20)), who blindly races through the bit, comes out sound here. Heck, even the absurd-trashy Jean Guillou performance (Philips (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024LNQ/goodmusicguide-20), deservedly oop) manages. Somehow. Under 3-1/2 minutes!

Now that I'm listening to BWV 676 more... I really like the slower approaches better than the faster ones... and the more they play the several lines equitably the better. Perhaps because my first account was the very slow (6:20+), rock solid, unshakeable Wolfgang Stockmeier (Music & Arts / Membran (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025U7V/goodmusicguide-20)).

Simon Preston (DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0033KR5XY/goodmusicguide-20)) teasingly close to chaos, but sonically not all that great. Surprisingly satisfying -- indeed terrific - throughout: Bernard Lagacé (Analekta (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001W4DZNW/goodmusicguide-20))... who is incidentally Canadian, not French. There seems to be a tendency among French organists (Jacque Amade, Guillou, J-P. Brosse [total mess] to abuse the work as s speed-monster showpiece. (Ulrik Spang-Hanssen (Classico (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0043X7UWG/goodmusicguide-20)) is guilty of that, too.) That's not to say that one need to exaggerate as much as Ruebsam (Naxos (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000140K/goodmusicguide-20)) on his beautiful but all-too-carried (6:22) account or Francesco Bongiorno (6:10) for his in any case acoustically shoddy, home-made Clavieruebung III (La Bottega Discantica (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0050S6NJY/goodmusicguide-20)). I don't have Vernet around right now to compare, but I don't remember any craziness there in either direction... though I think a bit on the fast side, too. Incidentally: If Francis Jacob (ZigZag (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000A7IJME/goodmusicguide-20)) is French, his 8-minute-PLUS version makes up for all the French race-horses to put them at the slow end of the national average.

Under 5 minutes, I really only enjoy a few interpretations: Walcha II (Archiv (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SAAX/goodmusicguide-20)) and possibly Ullrich Boehme (Philips (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001KN6SW/goodmusicguide-20), on various compilations), though that guy is pushing it, too. Hansjoerg Albrecht's recording is nice, (Oehms SACD (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0029MGNR6/goodmusicguide-20)) which intersperses the organ chorales with sung chorales... much like Koopman... and I've always had a soft-spot for Kevin Bowyer's Organ Mass (Nimbus (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000007NG4/goodmusicguide-20)), with the audible mechanics, the constant threat of the music running away, and all.

The strangest must be Tuma (Supraphon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003523/goodmusicguide-20)) whose pedal-work is registered to sound like an elephant baby with a head cold. Interesting, very different, but avoiding the 'strange' (whatever that may be, depending on one's ears and expectations) is Gerhard Weinberger who lifts some rhythms out of the intertwining lines that others don't (cpo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LJ8P/goodmusicguide-20))... except perhaps Walcha I (Archiv (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000U1NH4/goodmusicguide-20), 4:20).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 12, 2012, 09:44:17 AM
Thanks for this post - it's very stimulating.

In fact I like Francis Jacob's record of 676 a lot. He takes a risk by playing it so slow but I think the risk pays off big time because it lets you really relish the harmonies in the music. As a consequence,  moments of slight astringency are brought to the fore, and that makes the music more emotionally interesting for me. If you look at the chorale you'll see similar things happening: the basic idea that God offers security is juxtaposed with  slightly less reassuring thoughts like "Nimm an die Bitt' von unsrer Not, Erbarm' dich unser aller!" and  "Teufels G'walt"

Another one I very much like is Walcha mono, just because of the dynamism and Daemonic drive. In some respects that performance reminds me of some Edwin Fischer's Bach.

Do you know Hans Fagius's record of it? That's one of the ones I remember enjoying a lot.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on June 12, 2012, 05:43:58 PM
Re Timings on 676--Vernet is 4:33 and Alain II (the cycle of hers that I have) is a few seconds longer, and Messori is 5:39.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on June 12, 2012, 11:00:17 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 12, 2012, 09:44:17 AM
Do you know Hans Fagius's record of it? That's one of the ones I remember enjoying a lot.
I've got it as part of the Brilliant Bach box. I'm listening to it now... briefly flirts with chaos, but establishes a wonderful momentum.

Which Walcha set are you listening from? Comparing my Archiv set with the cheapo edition on Melodram  (albeit only on Spotify) I find that the latter has removed far too much noise which leaves the organ glaring and nuance-free. A bit like the EMI Schnabel Beethoven "remasterings".

At least it would seem in this case that they didn't just steal the nearest available master and publish them without credit... which is apparently their usual modus vivendi.
At the trade fair Classical:Next (see here (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/classicalnext-classical-musics-new.html)) I heard a lot of complaints about that (and not just Melodram, but even major companies doling out sets in which they included the remastered recordings of other, smaller companies that specialize in that field) -- and shockingly I found out that there has never been a case of copy-right violation brought forward in court on such an issue, because -- although it's perfectly possible to prove -- the cost and efforts of a legal department would invariably outweigh the possible benefits... at least for the case that sets the precedent.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on June 19, 2012, 12:42:02 AM

Another interesting opportunity coming up here in Japan in August (aside from Masaaki Suzuki on 7/7):     
Friday, August, 3,2012

Bach Organ works Series
Gerhard Weinberger

Gerhard Weinberger(Organ)
■Program
J.S.Bach:Toccate und Fuge "Dorisch" BWV538
     《Orgelbüchlein》Passion
      Fuge g-moll BWV578
      Konzert G-dur BWV592
      "Jesus Christus, unser Heiland" BWV665,666
      "Jesu, meine Freude" BWV713
      "Vor deinen Thron tret ich" BWV668
      Präludium und Fuge D-dur BWV532

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2012, 02:23:08 AM
I'm working my way through the first Wolfgan Rübsam set, and even after trying to deduct for the seduction of what is the most appealingly presented such set I have, I'm amazed how much I like pretty much everything that comes my way.

In all the 'big hits', he hits all my buttons... in many lesser pieces he makes me perk my ears without being quirky... moderation and good musical sense seem to inform him throughout... at CD 11 of 16 right now, and very calmly pleased, indeed.

(Or perhaps it the OOP-benediction-factor working on me?)

(http://www.seenandheard-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Bach_organ-works_Rubsam_Philips.jpg)
J.S.Bach
Complete Organ Works
+ Art of the Fugue
Metzler Organ St.Nikolaus, Frauenfeld (CH)
Marcussen Nave Organ in the Freiburg Münster

Philips (16 CDs)
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024M80/nectarandambr-20)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 01, 2012, 06:31:51 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2012, 02:23:08 AM
I'm working my way through the first Wolfgan Rübsam set, and even after trying to deduct for the seduction of what is the most appealingly presented such set I have, I'm amazed how much I like pretty much everything that comes my way.

The most amazing thing for me is the fact that it differs so much from his second integral for Naxos.
If one owns them both, one owns Bach's organ works in almost every peculiar way.

An interesting phenomenon, this mr. Rübsam.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2012, 07:35:38 AM
Quote from: Marc on July 01, 2012, 06:31:51 AM
The most amazing thing for me is the fact that it differs so much from his second integral for Naxos.
If one owns them both, one owns Bach's organ works in almost every peculiar way.

An interesting phenomenon, this mr. Rübsam.

And already the photo in this set's insert screams of the middle-Americana neat-groomed licensed barber-to-be:

(http://www.seenandheard-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Mister_Ruebsam_from_Germany.jpg)

Far too much plastic comes with the Naxos cycle, at this point, for me to be interested in it... but I'll listen to a few things, if I get to it, on the Naxos Music Library. From what I think I've picked up in GMG-conversations, it's a more expansive view of much of the works??

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 01, 2012, 08:27:27 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2012, 07:35:38 AM
[....]
Far too much plastic comes with the Naxos cycle, at this point, for me to be interested in it... but I'll listen to a few things, if I get to it, on the Naxos Music Library. From what I think I've picked up in GMG-conversations, it's a more expansive view of much of the works??

I remember that, at some stage in my organ rookie year, I described Rübsam's Naxos cycle as Bach interpreted by the old bearded man, who wants to stop the clock from running to the mortal end or something like it, and even Premont kinda agreed with that. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 01, 2012, 03:53:41 PM
Quote from: Marc on July 01, 2012, 08:27:27 AM
I remember that, at some stage in my organ rookie year, I described Rübsam's Naxos cycle as Bach interpreted by the old bearded man, who wants to stop the clock from running to the mortal end or something like it, and even Premont kinda agreed with that. ;)

The most surprising thing is the short space in time between the Philips and the Naxos sets.

Rübsam was born in 1946.
At the time of the first set (Philips 1976-77 - the sessions lasted one year) he was about 30 years old.
At the time of the second set (Naxos 1988 - 96 IIRC - sessions lasted eight years, even if the Naxos set is less complete than the Philips set) he was only in his 40es.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 02, 2012, 02:34:33 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 01, 2012, 03:53:41 PM
The most surprising thing is the short space in time between the Philips and the Naxos sets.

Rübsam was born in 1946.
At the time of the first set (Philips 1976-77 - the sessions lasted one year) he was about 30 years old.
At the time of the second set (Naxos 1988 - 96 IIRC - sessions lasted eight years, even if the Naxos set is less complete than the Philips set) he was only in his 40es.

In short: he got rid of his beard, quickly regretted doing so, and decided to play Bach with a beard, to soften the pain of the loss.
But he could not forget the entire experience and decided to open a barbershop.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on July 02, 2012, 02:40:55 AM
Quote from: Marc on July 02, 2012, 02:34:33 AM
In short: he got rid of his beard...

surely not all of it...

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio/Rubsam-Wolfgang-03.jpg), (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio/Rubsam-Wolfgang-01.jpg),

but seems to have come to his senses as per 2011:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wL617DLrbZ4/TaLQTx806FI/AAAAAAAAAdk/gGZ8yC8hztg/s1600/Ruebsam-11-89-w.jpg)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 02, 2012, 02:43:22 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 02, 2012, 02:40:55 AM
surely not all of it...

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio/Rubsam-Wolfgang-03.jpg), (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio/Rubsam-Wolfgang-01.jpg),

I know, I know. But that's not a beard, that's a moustache!
He was probably rehearsing for a part in the Barber of Sevilla.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 02, 2012, 08:16:49 AM
Don't you think that the Naxos is often deeper than the Philips? I mean expressively, affectively. I don't think that's solely a consequence of the tempos, more likely the rhythms.

Has he said anything in print about his ideas about how to play Bach for Naxos? I wonder who and what  influenced him.

I think generally his later recordings are better than the earlier, in Bach and in Buxtehude.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 03, 2012, 01:25:43 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 02, 2012, 08:16:49 AM
Don't you think that the Naxos is often deeper than the Philips? I mean expressively, affectively. I don't think that's solely a consequence of the tempos, more likely the rhythms.

Has he said anything in print about his ideas about how to play Bach for Naxos? I wonder who and what  influenced him.

I think generally his later recordings are better than the earlier, in Bach and in Buxtehude.

His Philips set was a milestone recording at the time of release. It was the first well informed complete set, even if it (unfortunately) wasn´t played on period instruments. He said in an interview with Grammophone, that he had tried to apply Leonhardt´s Bach style to the organ.  Well Ewald Kooiman´s first set on period instruments was probably a close contender, but I do not know the exact date of its completion, and it was in practice impossible to get hold of outside Holland.

His second set seems to me more intimate (despite the full organ sound), more private , more individual, more romantic in expression. I do not think this necessarily means that it is deeper. As far as I know, he has not expressed himself about the style of this set  in words.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 03, 2012, 07:36:04 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 03, 2012, 01:25:43 AM
His Philips set was a milestone recording at the time of release. It was the first well informed complete set, even if it (unfortunately) wasn´t played on period instruments. He said in an interview with Grammophone, that he had tried to apply Leonhardt´s Bach style to the organ.  Well Ewald Kooiman´s first set on period instruments was probably a close contender, but I do not know the exact date of its completion, and it was in practice impossible to get hold of outside Holland.

His second set seems to me more intimate (despite the full organ sound), more private , more individual, more romantic in expression. I do not think this necessarily means that it is deeper. As far as I know, he has not expressed himself about the style of this set  in words.



I know it doesn't necessarily mean deeper -- that's why I tried to qualify my contention by saying that I meant deeper in terms of expression and affect.

If you can find a reference to that article where e talks about his relationshiip to Leonhardt I'd be keen to read it. Just typing in Rübsam into Gramophone magazine's archive didn't come up with it as far as I can see.

I wonder which aspects of Leonhardt's Bach style  impressed him -- tempo, phrasing, rhythm . .    When I get time I'll listen to their Art of Fugues side by side

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 03, 2012, 11:34:05 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 03, 2012, 07:36:04 AM
I know it doesn't necessarily mean deeper -- that's why I tried to qualify my contention by saying that I meant deeper in terms of expression and affect.
While the first integral aims at the displaying of common affects according to the theses of the HIP movement and for that reason seems more impersonal, the second integral is a more private matter. His registrations are obviously more romantic, but I think in a way, that his feeling of tempo and agogics realizes the ultimate consequences of the baroque rhethoric style, interpreted in his very individual way, certainly blurring the border between baroque and romantic style. This is why his second set interests me a lot, in contrast e.g. to the odd Guillou recordings. Still I do not find Rübsams second set deeper that the first - just more individual, but also kind of romantic, because striving towards individuality is a romantic point of view. 

Quote from: Mandryka
If you can find a reference to that article where e talks about his relationshiip to Leonhardt I'd be keen to read it. Just typing in Rübsam into Gramophone magazine's archive didn't come up with it as far as I can see.
The article was published 1977 or 1978. I read it that long ago. I think I reread it - stumbled over it by chance - at Grammophones homepage a number of years ago, but since then they have reorganized the page, and I can find it now.

Quote from: Mandryka
I wonder which aspects of Leonhardt's Bach style  impressed him -- tempo, phrasing, rhythm . .    When I get time I'll listen to their Art of Fugues side by side
Probably the aspects which are the most distinctive of Leonhardt´s post 1960 Bach style: His articulation and his agogics, particularily the agogic accents.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 03, 2012, 10:39:40 PM
Thanks for the reply premont.

I listened to the first handful of fugues from Rubsam (Philips) and Leonhardt (DHM) and I must confess I don't hear the similarities in either articulation or agogics. Rubsam's rhythms seemed rather more mechanical than Leonhardt's and GL seemed to break up the music into smaller units.  But I could be being obtuse: remember I don't play the music and the tempo differences are so striking that it could be masking more profound similarities from me.



Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 04, 2012, 01:21:54 AM
I understand your point. In general, I find Rübsam's (Philips) fugues more shallow than Leonhardt's.
In fact: I hear more Alain in it, but the fact that Alain opts for a slower tempo has a positive effect considering expression.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 05, 2012, 03:43:21 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 03, 2012, 10:39:40 PM
I listened to the first handful of fugues from Rubsam (Philips) and Leonhardt (DHM) and I must confess I don't hear the similarities in either articulation or agogics. Rubsam's rhythms seemed rather more mechanical than Leonhardt's and GL seemed to break up the music into smaller units.  But I could be being obtuse: remember I don't play the music and the tempo differences are so striking that it could be masking more profound similarities from me.

All I wrote about Rübsam´s Bach integral was, that it is historically informed - meaning in his case first and foremost as to registrations, change of registrations (or rather lack of change), articulation, execution of ornamentation et.c. and to some degree as to choice of instrument (neo-baroque). And I quoted him for saying that his intention was to adapt the Leonhardt style. I did not write, that I think he succeded completely in this, and I agree with Marc, that Rübsam´s approach to agogics (probably the most subjective part of interpretation along with the tempo as such) more recalls his two most important teachers (Alain in particular - Walcha being the other) than Leonhardt, Rübsam´s agogics being very subtle compared to Leonhardt´s to put it mildly. And in 1977/78 I found Rübsam´s overall tempi just right. To day - being 35 years older - I prefer a slower basic pulse, but I do not think one can say, that a slower pace per se has got a positive effect considering the "quality" of expression.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on July 06, 2012, 01:09:45 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 05, 2012, 03:43:21 PM...Rübsam´s approach to agogics (probably the most subjective part of interpretation along with the tempo as such) more recalls his two most important teachers (Alain in particular - Walcha being the other) than Leonhardt, Rübsam´s agogics being very subtle compared to Leonhardt´s to put it mildly. And in 1977/78 I found Rübsam´s overall tempi just right. To day - being 35 years older - I prefer a slower basic pulse, but I do not think one can say, that a slower pace per se has got a positive effect considering the "quality" of expression.

I know passively (i.e. when told, I nod knowingly) that Ruebsam was taught by Walcha, but I didn't think of that when I found that the overall effect of listening to Ruebsam reminded me of that of listening to Walcha (II). Ditto about the 'rightness' of tempi. I also found myself thinking of Backhaus' Beethoven, curiously.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 06, 2012, 01:54:22 AM
I think he's quite often faster than Walcha. But I don't think that it's primarily  the speeds which make the later recordings deeper. It's the  rhythms.

One thing which makes me like the second Rubsam recordings is that sometimes I feel that the music is being created  in the act of performance. Art of Fugue is an example.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 06, 2012, 03:11:11 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 06, 2012, 01:54:22 AM
I think he's quite often faster than Walcha. But I don't think that it's primarily  the speeds which make the later recordings deeper. It's the  rhythms.
What do you exactly think of using the word "rhythm"?  The agogics?




Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 06, 2012, 03:19:16 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 06, 2012, 01:09:45 AM
I also found myself thinking of Backhaus' Beethoven, curiously.
Well, I think they share some kind of unmannered directness in their playing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 06, 2012, 03:52:25 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 06, 2012, 03:11:11 AM
What do you exactly think of using the word "rhythm"?  The agogics?

Yes -- agogics. I realised I'd put it badly after posting but I've only just had time to come back to change it.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 06, 2012, 10:19:19 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 05, 2012, 03:43:21 PM
[....]
To day - being 35 years older - I prefer a slower basic pulse, but I do not think one can say, that a slower pace per se has got a positive effect considering the "quality" of expression.

Compared to Alain, I think that the fast Rübsam I lacks a certain Gravität, which works especially against him in the grand chorale-free works, like BWV 538, 544, 548 and so on.
Don't get me wrong though: I like Rübsam I a lot, and it would be boring if all ± 30 integrals would sound the same.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 07, 2012, 10:10:46 AM
One place in the Naxos performances which I think is sublime is the  final variation of the Canonic Variations.

I like the Philips record of this too for the registrations. And I bet lots of people will prefer it because they want a more lively performance. But I think  that there are some special things going on in the Naxos.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 11, 2012, 08:36:56 AM
Quote from: Marc on July 06, 2012, 10:19:19 AM
Compared to Alain, I think that the fast Rübsam I lacks a certain Gravität, which works especially against him in the grand chorale-free works, like BWV 538, 544, 548 and so on.

Well, we suppose that Bach valued gravity, judged from his ideas about the upgrading of the Mühlheisen organ and from his approval of the Naumburg organ. Now I think gravity is a characteristic of the sound of the organ more than a way to describe the playing. Remember that Bach used to take the tempo rather fast. IMO the cause of the missing gravity in Rübsam´s BWV 538, 544 et.c. is, that the Metzler organ, he has chosen, lacks gravity, at least as documented by these recordings. Its low registers lack substance, f.i. the HW principal 16´ sounds more like a gedacht than like a principal. I have on the other hand not heard the organ live nor on other recordings, and I can not swear that the engineer may not be part of the problem, and in this context it is interesting to note, that Rübsam later became his own engineer. Whatever the cause - I do not think Rübsam´s playing lacks weight despite the rather fast tempo.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 11, 2012, 09:20:51 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 06, 2012, 01:54:22 AM
I think he's quite often faster than Walcha. But I don't think that it's primarily  the speeds which make the later recordings deeper. It's the  rhythms.

One thing which makes me like the second Rubsam recordings is that sometimes I feel that the music is being created  in the act of performance. Art of Fugue is an example.

Having relistened to Rübsam´s second AoF (Naxos) I find it again very individual bordering the romantic. His registrations are muddy (some undefined plenum often with reeds added) and he very often uses aliquotes (quint- or tertz-sounding stops) and even the tremulant to colour the sound, and there are some odd changes of stops. He also tries as much as possible to give each part its own colour. I think one can say, that he "orchestrates" the work in a romantic manner. His tempi are mostly slow - e.g. the Canon alla ottava ought IMO to have the character of a gigue - it should be played faster and with more rhythmic impetus. Often I feel that the affect he evokes is besides the point. The agogics are on the other hand surprisingly modest and feel rather natural, without that kind of exaggeration he displays on some other contemporary recordings. All in all this interpretation is a mixed pleasure.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 11, 2012, 10:50:54 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 11, 2012, 09:20:51 AM
Having relistened to Rübsam´s second AoF (Naxos) I find it again very individual bordering the romantic. His registrations are muddy (some undefined plenum often with reeds added) and he very often uses aliquotes (quint- or tertz-sounding stops) and even the tremulant to colour the sound, and there are some odd changes of stops. He also tries as much as possible to give each part its own colour. I think one can say, that he "orchestrates" the work in a romantic manner. His tempi are mostly slow - e.g. the Canon alla ottava ought IMO to have the character of a gigue - it should be played faster and with more rhythmic impetus. Often I feel that the affect he evokes is besides the point. The agogics are on the other hand surprisingly modest and feel rather natural, without that kind of exaggeration he displays on some other contemporary recordings. All in all this interpretation is a mixed pleasure.

What makes an affekt relevant? I'm totally confused about this. Suppose you could fit some allegory to the performance, to the sequence of affekts that Rübsam evokes,   a story of a pilgrim's progress or something like that, would that make the affective plan relevant?

Is the tremulant a romantic stop? I remember hearing it used sometimes in the Philips set, not in AoF but in some sets of variations. But I'd have to search to find it.

The agogics aren't as exaggerated as in some of the piano recordings (the inventions for example -- from memory.) But you once said that you don't like some of the Naxos organ  records for their agogics, and I remember wondering which ones you meant (especially since I've started to listen to his Leipzig Chorales a bit, and to even enjoy the trio sonatas.)

This whole romantic style in performance is difficult. For me a major element  of romantic style has to do with stressing lyrical beauty, smoothing over dissonances. I don't think Rübsam  does that, and that seems to me a major saving grace.

I'll think about tempos later.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 11, 2012, 12:17:03 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 11, 2012, 10:50:54 AMWhat makes an affekt relevant? I'm totally confused about this. Suppose you could fit some allegory to the performance, to the sequence of affekts that Rübsam evokes,   a story of a pilgrim's progress or something like that, would that make the affective plan relevant?
Take Contrapunctus I or the first part of the unfinished fugue.  His soft registration and the tremulant make these pieces a kind of mourning music, which I think is foreign to the serene gravity I see in them. And  Contrapunctus I – XI are from Bach´s hand a suite of variation movements arranged in the order of growing complexity and musical intensity. Your supposed "story" behind the music is by itself a romantic idea.
Quote from: MandrykaIs the tremulant a romantic stop? I remember hearing it used sometimes in the Philips set, not in AoF but in some sets of variations. But I'd have to search to find it.

Yes, I think in the way he uses it for all parts and not just for a solo part (in a chorale setting e.g.). He achieves in this way a harmonium-like effect, not quite unlike the sound of the romantic organ.
Quote from: MandrykaThe agogics aren't as exaggerated as in some of the piano recordings (the inventions for example -- from memory.) But you once said that you don't like some of the Naxos organ  records for their agogics, and I remember wondering which ones you meant (especially since I've started to listen to his Leipzig Chorales a bit, and to even enjoy the trio sonatas.)

I have become more accustomed to his agogics and what annoys me to day is more some of his extremely slow tempi f.i. in the Passacaglia.
Quote from: MandrykaThis whole romantic style in performance is difficult. For me a major element  of romantic style has to do with stressing lyrical beauty, smoothing over dissonances. I don't think Rübsam  does that, and that seems to me a major saving grace.

As I wrote above I find first and foremost his way of registration romantic, but also the slow tempo is a romantic tendency. And lyrical beauty, well – listen again to Contrapunctus I and observe the romantic sweetness of mourning.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 11, 2012, 02:32:40 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 11, 2012, 08:36:56 AM
Well, we suppose that Bach valued gravity, judged from his ideas about the upgrading of the Mühlheisen organ and from his approval of the Naumburg organ. Now I think gravity is a characteristic of the sound of the organ more than a way to describe the playing. Remember that Bach used to take the tempo rather fast. IMO the cause of the missing gravity in Rübsam´s BWV 538, 544 et.c. is, that the Metzler organ, he has chosen, lacks gravity, at least as documented by these recordings. Its low registers lack substance, f.i. the HW principal 16´ sounds more like a gedacht than like a principal. I have on the other hand not heard the organ live nor on other recordings, and I can not swear that the engineer may not be part of the problem, and in this context it is interesting to note, that Rübsam later became his own engineer. Whatever the cause - I do not think Rübsam´s playing lacks weight despite the rather fast tempo.

I understand.
I mainly reply because the 'wish for more gravity' in some of Bach's organ works is caused by my own preferences, not because of a historically based supposition that Bach himself might have valued it.
I've read many times that Bach preferred large organs with 32ft pedal towers, but personally I don't find it necessary. One of the best 'live' Passacaglias I heard was played on the 'only' 16ft organ of Noordbroek (built by Schnitger), played by Craig Cramer. More than sufficient Gravität in that performance!
Wish I had put a mp3-recorder/player in my head that evening. In that case I would be able to open my mouth at any time, for others to share the thrill! ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 11, 2012, 10:01:41 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 11, 2012, 12:17:03 PM

Take Contrapunctus I or the first part of the unfinished fugue.  His soft registration and the tremulant make these pieces a kind of mourning music, which I think is foreign to the serene gravity I see in them. And  Contrapunctus I – XI are from Bach´s hand a suite of variation movements arranged in the order of growing complexity and musical intensity. Your supposed "story" behind the music is by itself a romantic idea.


So when I read stuff like Philip Pickett on the Brandenburgs, is that unstylish? -- I mean the way he links the pieces to allegory.

http://www.recorderhomepage.net/brandenburgs.html

It would be interesting to hear why your gravity is more stylish than Rubsam's mourning -- are you just going to point to the score or are you going to go beyond the score I wonder.




Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on July 12, 2012, 09:00:32 AM
Interjecting here a moment....
It seems to me that Premont is using the term "gravity" to describe a certain sonic quality of some organs.  Is that so, and if so, could explain/supply synonyms?  Because I'm used to the term as a decription for how the music is played--a quality supplied by the organist, and not the organ,  and therefore for me "mourning" (to use the example just cited here on the thread) goes quite well with "gravity"--and not merely because it allows one to make a pun about "grave" music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 12, 2012, 09:49:35 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 11, 2012, 10:01:41 PM
So when I read stuff like Philip Pickett on the Brandenburgs, is that unstylish? -- I mean the way he links the pieces to allegory.
http://www.recorderhomepage.net/brandenburgs.html
Unstylish is not the proper description, but I think his thoughts are far out. I read them when I acquired his recording about 15 years ago. Of course I can not "prove" him vrong more than he can prove that he is right. However his interpretation is not marked by his thoughts in any particular way, and it is also difficult to see in what way they might be so.

Quote from: Mandryka
It would be interesting to hear why your gravity is more stylish than Rubsam's mourning -- are you just going to point to the score or are you going to go beyond the score I wonder.
Well. I go beyond the score as such, keeping in mind that this is baroque music and not romantic music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 12, 2012, 10:02:08 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 12, 2012, 09:00:32 AM
It seems to me that Premont is using the term "gravity" to describe a certain sonic quality of some organs.  Is that so, and if so, could explain/supply synonyms?  Because I'm used to the term as a decription for how the music is played--a quality supplied by the organist, and not the organ,  and therefore for me "mourning" (to use the example just cited here on the thread) goes quite well with "gravity"--and not merely because it allows one to make a pun about "grave" music.

Above I used the word gravity in the way Bach did (Gravitas), describing the effect a deep organ stop (he wrote about a 32ft subbas stop) may have on the total sound of an organ, adding weighty sonic basis to the sound.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 12, 2012, 10:16:03 AM
Quote from: Marc on July 11, 2012, 02:32:40 PM
I mainly reply because the 'wish for more gravity' in some of Bach's organ works is caused by my own preferences, not because of a historically based supposition that Bach himself might have valued it.
I've read many times that Bach preferred large organs with 32ft pedal towers, but personally I don't find it necessary.
As you may expect I agree with you in this.
A propos Bach and Gravitas: I own a recording of BWV 565 by Gabor Lehotka on a historical organ in Sopron, Hungary. The organ is a 4ft organ and listening to this you suddenly understand that the parallel octaves in the toccata was written in this way to add some gravitas and to make the organ sound bigger.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on July 12, 2012, 11:02:09 AM
Gravi-demi-tasse
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on July 12, 2012, 05:15:24 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 12, 2012, 10:02:08 AM
Above I used the word gravity in the way Bach did (Gravitas), describing the effect a deep organ stop (he wrote about a 32ft subbas stop) may have on the total sound of an organ, adding weighty sonic basis to the sound.

Thanks for clarifying.  I think the confusion lies in the fact that "gravitas"/"gravity" is not usually used in English in that sense--outside of physics it's more a word with a psychological connotation than a physical one.  We'd probably reach for a word like "mass/massive",  "heft", "density", etc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 15, 2012, 11:51:32 AM
Last Wednesday the Dutch poet Rutger Kopland died.
About 20 years ago, together with a fellow student, I wrote my thesis about him.

Here's a poem about Bach the organist (and translated in English).
No Gravität, but Leichtigkeit. :)

EEN KORAAL

Volgens zijn tijdgenoten was Johann Sebastian Bach
een virtuoos organist – hij speelde met
een onnavolgbare 'Leichtigkeit'

lichthandigheid zou je het kunnen noemen, maar dan zo
licht dat het was alsof het geen handen waren
die speelden

ik vermoed dat ik wel weet hoe het klonk
alsof ik hoor hoe hij het zelf is die daar boven
in deze kerk in die kleine machinekamer
muziek zit te maken

je hoort het eeuwenoude mechaniek, het gekreun
van scharnieren, het geklepper van toetsen
het gekraak van de vloer, het zuchten van wind
hoe er van lucht muziek wordt gemaakt

en er een koraal langzaam door de ruimte zweeft
als een onzichtbare gewichtloze vogel
Leichtigkeit

A CHORALE

According to his contemporaries Johann Sebastian Bach was
a virtuoso organist – he played with
an inimitable 'Leichtigkeit'

light-handedness you could call this, but then so
light that it seemed as if it weren't hands
that were playing

I think I know how it sounded
as if I can hear it's the man himself
up there in this church in his tiny engine room
making music

you can hear the age-old mechanism, the groaning
of hinges, the clatter of keys
the floor creaking, the wind sighing
how music is made out of air

and a chorale slowly floats through this space
as an invisible weightless bird
Leichtigkeit


There's a sound example on the next link, in which Kopland is reciting his own poem (in Dutch).

I've heard him reciting a few times, which was always an event.

http://www.poetryinternationalweb.net/pi/site/poem/item/16667/auto/A-CHORALE

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on August 06, 2012, 11:49:02 AM
(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/MuzeAudioArt/Large/85/1312185.jpg)

And what do you guys think of this?  0:)

Upon sampling it sounded historically informed and modestestly articulated but also quite sweet toothed! ::) :D

And the sound of the organ of the Martinikerk sounded a bit muffled...

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 07, 2012, 11:17:58 AM
Quote from: Que on August 06, 2012, 11:49:02 AM
(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/MuzeAudioArt/Large/85/1312185.jpg)

And what do you guys think of this?  0:)

Upon sampling it sounded historically informed and modestestly articulated but also quite sweet toothed! ::) :D

And the sound of the organ of the Martinikerk sounded a bit muffled...

Q

Is this the one with the Passacaglia and the spurious Sarabande con partitis?
On my issue in da house it says Bach Organ Works Volume 1.

If you've got this same first volume, then I would say: it's a nice disc and worthwhile having, also because that Sarabande is rarely played, but I haven't seen a 'Volume 2' by Liebig yet, so I'll have to postpone a more 'solid judgement'.
About the sound: I don't recall it being a bit muffled, but it's been some time since I last listened to it.

Btw: I heard the Martini several times 'live' (again) this year and .... well .... this instrument is nothing but magnificento! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on August 07, 2012, 09:23:54 PM
Quote from: Marc on August 07, 2012, 11:17:58 AM
Is this the one with the Passacaglia and the spurious Sarabande con partitis?
On my issue in da house it says Bach Organ Works Volume 1.

That's the one! :) The sound issue can be a compressed file matter, since I listened online.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: stingo on August 10, 2012, 08:41:41 AM
Forgive me for not reading all 83 pages of the thread before posting, but noticed there was some initial discussion of Fagius' 5 SACD set. I have the set and liked (but not loved) what I heard. What other issues should I consider?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on August 10, 2012, 09:11:07 AM
Quote from: stingo on August 10, 2012, 08:41:41 AM
Forgive me for not reading all 83 pages of the thread before posting, but noticed there was some initial discussion of Fagius' 5 SACD set. I have the set and liked (but not loved) what I heard. What other issues should I consider?

Maybe give us some clues. :)  What didn't quite do it for you with Fagius? Do you prefer HIP playing and/or historically correct instruments?

If the answer to both is yes, I would recommend Koopman, provided you don't mind a liberal use of embellishments.

Olivier Vernet is also pretty good, but too bad that not all his organs are up to scratch. The playing is quite impressive, however.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 21, 2012, 06:18:11 PM
I am currently alternating listenings of Bach by Fagius and Vernet. Most of the time I find Vernet more imaginative and involving in direct comparison. But Fagius' instruments are just as good as Verner's.

I didn't hear anything I didn't like in the organs Vernet uses - but I'm not through the whole set yet - about 65% of the way.

Which organ (s) do you find not up to scratch?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on September 29, 2012, 07:29:01 AM
(http://images.borders.com.au/images/bau/MI000312/MI0003127320/0/0/plain/bach-trio-sonatas.jpg)
I'm enjoying this recording immensely.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on October 05, 2012, 04:04:35 PM
Maybe off topic, maybe not.

http://www.heraldargus.com/articles/2010/10/02/features/business/doc4ca569e7b46e0222793199.txt
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on October 06, 2012, 08:05:03 AM
(http://www.abeillemusique.com/images/references/ae10761.jpg)

Intégrale des œuvres pour orgue jouée sur des orgues Silbermann par Ewald Kooiman, Ute Gremmel-Geuchen, Gerhard Gnann et Bernhard Klapprott

Self-explanatory even for a non-francophone like moi.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on October 06, 2012, 09:50:00 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 05, 2012, 04:04:35 PM
Maybe off topic, maybe not.

http://www.heraldargus.com/articles/2010/10/02/features/business/doc4ca569e7b46e0222793199.txt
I don't know what to make of this but I enjoyed the read. Thanks for the link. I wonder if you get to listen to organ music while you're getting your cut.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on October 06, 2012, 01:28:06 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on October 06, 2012, 08:05:03 AM
(http://www.abeillemusique.com/images/references/ae10761.jpg)

Intégrale des œuvres pour orgue jouée sur des orgues Silbermann par Ewald Kooiman, Ute Gremmel-Geuchen, Gerhard Gnann et Bernhard Klapprott

Self-explanatory even for a non-francophone like moi.

Mewants, mewants, mewants.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on October 06, 2012, 11:38:37 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 06, 2012, 01:28:06 PM
Mewants, mewants, mewants.

Seem hard to resist... 8) Though considering the sad fact that Ewald Kooiman wasn't able to complete the series, I wouldn't mind the reissue of his 2nd cycle.
(Where is Brilliant Classics when you you need it? ::))

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on October 07, 2012, 12:55:37 AM
Quote from: Que on October 06, 2012, 11:38:37 PM
Seem hard to resist... 8) Though considering the sad fact that Ewald Kooiman wasn't able to complete the series, I wouldn't mind the reissue of his 2nd cycle.
(Where is Brilliant Classics when you you need it? ::))

Q

Was this project ever intended as a complete Kooiman cycle? (His Third?) And if so, why weren't the missing recordings licensed from his second (or first?) cycle?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on October 07, 2012, 12:59:13 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 07, 2012, 12:55:37 AM
Was this project ever intended as a complete Kooiman cycle? (His Third?) And if so, why weren't the missing recordings licensed from his second (or first?) cycle?

Yes to the 1st question, but he died before the project could be completed.
Don't know the answer to the 2nd question, just that Aeolus decided to ask former pupils of Kooiman to contribute to the completion.

More here: http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/More/News-and-articles/Future-of-the-big-Bach-organ-music-SACD-project-started-with-Ewald-Kooiman

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on October 07, 2012, 01:34:13 AM
Quote from: Que on October 07, 2012, 12:59:13 AM
Yes to the 1st question, but he died before the project could be completed.
Don't know the answer to the 2nd question, just that Aeolus decided to ask former pupils of Kooiman to contribute to the completion.

More here: http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/More/News-and-articles/Future-of-the-big-Bach-organ-music-SACD-project-started-with-Ewald-Kooiman

Q

Thanks - I'll ask the good people at Aeolus if I need more background. Cheers. Part of the answer as to why is already in the first sentence of the text you linked to:

QuoteOur complete recording of the Bach's organ works on Super Audio CD...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on October 07, 2012, 11:43:02 AM
Something tells me that most of the "great" works are recorded by one of Kooiman´s pupils, and that Kooiman´s own contribution was relative sparse (8 of 19 CD´s in all).

http://aeolus-music.com/ae_en/All-Discs/AE10761-Bach-Johann-Sebastian-Complete-Organ-Works
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on October 07, 2012, 11:52:27 AM
Quote from: milk on October 06, 2012, 09:50:00 AM
I don't know what to make of this but I enjoyed the read. Thanks for the link. I wonder if you get to listen to organ music while you're getting your cut.

Hopefully not. It would be more interesting to talk with him about organ music.
Unfortunately I live thousands of kilometers from Valparaiso.

One can also mail him on his home page
http://wolfsbarbershop.homestead.com/home.html#
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on October 07, 2012, 05:06:59 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 07, 2012, 11:52:27 AM
Hopefully not. It would be more interesting to talk with him about organ music.
Unfortunately I live thousands of kilometers from Valparaiso.

One can also mail him on his home page
http://wolfsbarbershop.homestead.com/home.html#
This seems to be his main focus now.
I didn't get much of a sense from the article about whether and when he makes music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on October 07, 2012, 09:27:56 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 07, 2012, 12:55:37 AM
Was this project ever intended as a complete Kooiman cycle? (His Third?) And if so, why weren't the missing recordings licensed from his second (or first?) cycle?

Yes, it was intended as a new Kooiman integral.
He wanted to do another cycle on 'Northern French' (Vosges) baroque organs, because they sounded different than the Dutch/German instruments, and therefore cast a different light on this oeuvre.

So, the 2nd cycle was sort of a Bach/Kooiman ode to the Dutch/German baroque organs, and the 3rd was meant to be as an ode the Vosges organs.

http://www.ewaldkooiman.com/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=5&cntnt01origid=22&cntnt01returnid=22

About the license: even though Coronata does not exist anymore, I really wouldn't know if their licenses are available on the market.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on October 15, 2012, 03:31:49 AM
Quote from: milk on September 29, 2012, 07:29:01 AM
(http://images.borders.com.au/images/bau/MI000312/MI0003127320/0/0/plain/bach-trio-sonatas.jpg)
I'm enjoying this recording immensely.

Those sonatas sound fresh every time I listen to them, and Ghielmi is a convincing performer of Bach's chorale-free works. So yes: I like this issue very much, too. And the organ (Ahrend, San Siciliano, Milano) is one of the better modern baroque organs IMHO.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on October 17, 2012, 04:23:30 AM
Quote from: Marc on October 15, 2012, 03:31:49 AM
Those sonatas sound fresh every time I listen to them, and Ghielmi is a convincing performer of Bach's chorale-free works. So yes: I like this issue very much, too. And the organ (Ahrend, San Siciliano, Milano) is one of the better modern baroque organs IMHO.
I have some other Ghielmi organ recordings but one has stuck with me as being particularly notable.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on October 17, 2012, 11:33:47 PM
Quote from: milk on October 17, 2012, 04:23:30 AM
I have some other Ghielmi organ recordings but one has stuck with me as being particularly notable.

Yes, sounds familiar.
Only one small 'problem': pedal parts recorded a bit too distantly, especially in most of the fast movements, which makes them sound like two-part pieces with only a modest accompaniment.
Don't get me wrong though: I do not prefer a thundering bass, just more equivalency of all 3 parts.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 24, 2012, 07:53:14 AM
I'm having a bit of an orgelbuchlein binge at the moment so if there are any records which you think are interesting or which are landmarks in some way, please let me know.

Anyone care to comment on this one?  Jens Christensen is an organist who I only know through an extraordinary AoF

(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/815/6811815.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 24, 2012, 11:24:04 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 24, 2012, 07:53:14 AM
I'm having a bit of an orgelbuchlein binge at the moment so if there are any records which you think are interesting or which are landmarks in some way, please let me know.

Anyone care to comment on this one?  Jens Christensen is an organist who I only know through an extraordinary AoF

(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/815/6811815.jpg)

I don't think I know that one, I'm really not sure if I have it myself .... I bought too many of Bach's organs during the last few years. :P

But his initials (J.C.) are promising.

Maybe Premont, who has only 1.532.476 Bach organ discs and is able to remember and summarize each and every one of them, can help?

About the more general question (interesting/landmarks): this is also difficult. Many complete Orgelbüchleins are now only available in integrals, some others are OOP/difficult to get and many of the OB-chorales are recorded in more combined programs (which I prefer, to be honest).

But at least I find the following 'strictly OB' recordings interesting or even very interesting: Anton Heiller (Vanguard), René Saorgin (Harmonia Mundi), Murray Forbes Sommerville (Titanic), Wolfgang Zerer (Hänssler, part of the Hänssler Bach Edition) and Bram Beekman (Prestare).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 24, 2012, 11:45:19 AM
Thanks Marc. It was Saorgin's CD which first made me interested in orgelbuchlein. Another which I'm enjoying just as much as Saorgin's is from Alessio Conti. It was you who first made me aware of Conti ages ago, in a discusson about Art of the Fugue. I'm very glad you did.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 24, 2012, 11:55:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 24, 2012, 11:45:19 AM
Thanks Marc. It was Saorgin's CD which first made me interested in orgelbuchlein. Another which I'm enjoying just as much as Saorgin's is from Alessio Conti. It was you who first made me aware of Conti ages ago, in a discusson about Art of the Fugue. I'm very glad you did.

This might be helpful, too: a review of 5 OB's by Don/Bulldog/Sammy:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Organ-Orgelbuchlein-Comp.htm
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 25, 2012, 07:01:39 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 24, 2012, 11:55:49 AM
This might be helpful, too: a review of 5 OB's by Don/Bulldog/Sammy:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Organ-Orgelbuchlein-Comp.htm

Thanks for pointing that out to me, I have a performance by Rogg in a big box of Bach.

Re your comment about liking to have chunks Of it in mixed programmes. Well you see I kind of feel it's nice to have all 40 odd. In some  performances, like the Saorgin but no doubt in others too, it's like a big journey. There's enough variety of mood and music to keep me Interested for the duration. In fact, I sometimes almost think of it as having several movements - an Easter movement, a Christmas movement etc - each movement with a slightly different ambience.

I have no idea how well this fits in with what Bach was up to when he wrote orgelbuchlein.  I've just ordered a book about it to try and learn a bit more.



Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 25, 2012, 11:18:37 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 25, 2012, 07:01:39 AM
Thanks for pointing that out to me, I have a performance by Rogg in a big box of Bach.

Re your comment about liking to have chunks Of it in mixed programmes. Well you see I kind of feel it's nice to have all 40 odd. In some  performances, like the Saorgin but no doubt in others too, it's like a big journey. There's enough variety of mood and music to keep me Interested for the duration. In fact, I sometimes almost think of it as having several movements - an Easter movement, a Christmas movement etc - each movement with a slightly different ambience.

I have no idea how well this fits in with what Bach was up to when he wrote orgelbuchlein.  I've just ordered a book about it to try and learn a bit more.

I know what you mean when you talk about this big journey. It's just that, in general, I myself prefer mixed programs on discs with organ music, as is usually done in organ concerts, too. And from what I read so far the organ concerts in Bach's time were also combined chorale-free and chorale playing, in many cases with improvisations in between.

What Bach was up to with this unfinished organ booklet?

Well, according to the master himself, to give a beginning organist instructions as how to perform a chorale in a multitude of ways, while achieving mastery in the study of the pedal, since in the chorales contained herein the pedal is treated entirely obbligato. In honour of our Lord alone, that my fellow man his skill may hone.

That's all. :)

So, no instructions from JSB himself about how to listen to these chorales from one's hifi kit. ;)

Btw, if you're interested in the hard-to-get issue of Bram Beekman, here's the official link of the record company:

http://www.zwoferinkcd-productions.nl/pages/catalogusview.php?code=3331562&pagina=index&taal=en

It's a full-priced disc (€ 19,95), but one rarely hears these works played on a Flemish 18th century organ. This one was built for the Oostkerk in Middelburg (NL) between 1780 and 1783 by De Rijckere.
Here are some pictures of the organ:

(http://i48.tinypic.com/14v2xhl.jpg)

(http://i46.tinypic.com/2nqv6hd.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 25, 2012, 01:55:39 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 24, 2012, 11:24:04 AM
I bought too many of Bach's organs during the last few years. :P

Maybe Premont, who has only 1.532.476 Bach organ discs and is able to remember and summarize each and every one of them, can help?

:D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 25, 2012, 02:35:57 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 24, 2012, 07:53:14 AM

Anyone care to comment on this one?  Jens Christensen is an organist who I only know through an extraordinary AoF

(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/815/6811815.jpg)

Jens Escherich Christensen is a pupil of Grethe Krogh and Anton Heiller and has been organist in residence at the organ of Vor Frelsers Kirke in Copenhagen (the organ used for the recording) for many years. For "Kontrapunkt" he has recorded three double CD´s: The Art of Fugue, Clavierübung III, The Orgelbüchlein (with a number of Kirnberger chorales and other individual chorales as fillers) and also a single CD with Spanish Baroque organ music. His playing is informed and technically accomplished. His interpretations are marked by a strong individuality, which initially may seem distracting, but which has grown on me by each listening. He plays rather many of the Orgelbüchlein chorales in a very slow pace - slower than I ever heard, and the inner calm which results, leaves room for peaceful meditation, even in a chorale like "Alle Menschen müssen sterben", where he seems to put focus on the peace of death instead of the kind of merciless fate towards which the accompanying restless figuration in the left hand seems to associate. I am not sure, that his interpretation is what Bach thought of, but it works in the way he realizes it. The organ is sonically well caught (I have listened to this organ live several times). The CDs may be recommended to listeners who look for individuality in interpretation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 25, 2012, 02:53:44 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 24, 2012, 07:53:14 AM
I'm having a bit of an orgelbuchlein binge at the moment so if there are any records which you think are interesting or which are landmarks in some way, please let me know.

The number of recordings of the Orgelbüchlein I own is incidentally 46, exactly the number of chorales in the cycle.

I do not know, which recordings you know, and before I try to recommend some (others?), I would like to know your point of departure.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 26, 2012, 10:02:26 AM
I know Saorgin's best. I've dipped into some others, including Walcha 1 and Conti and but I prefer the Saorgin because I can listen to the whole thing. There are times when it seems integrated, as if one piece is a response to another. There's plenty of variation in tone. And there's a variety of mood, it's not relentlessly light and celebratory, though he can be that. But sometimes he can be rapt and dark too.

Oh, and a  rich complex tangy baroque organ too please.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on November 29, 2012, 05:36:49 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 25, 2012, 11:18:37 AM
I know what you mean when you talk about this big journey. It's just that, in general, I myself prefer mixed programs on discs with organ music, as is usually done in organ concerts, too. And from what I read so far the organ concerts in Bach's time were also combined chorale-free and chorale playing, in many cases with improvisations in between.

What Bach was up to with this unfinished organ booklet?

Well, according to the master himself, to give a beginning organist instructions as how to perform a chorale in a multitude of ways, while achieving mastery in the study of the pedal, since in the chorales contained herein the pedal is treated entirely obbligato. In honour of our Lord alone, that my fellow man his skill may hone.

That's all. :)

So, no instructions from JSB himself about how to listen to these chorales from one's hifi kit. ;)

Btw, if you're interested in the hard-to-get issue of Bram Beekman, here's the official link of the record company:

http://www.zwoferinkcd-productions.nl/pages/catalogusview.php?code=3331562&pagina=index&taal=en

It's a full-priced disc (€ 19,95), but one rarely hears these works played on a Flemish 18th century organ. This one was built for the Oostkerk in Middelburg (NL) between 1780 and 1783 by De Rijckere.
Here are some pictures of the organ:

(http://i48.tinypic.com/14v2xhl.jpg)

(http://i46.tinypic.com/2nqv6hd.jpg)

What a beautifully crafted piece of musical instrument ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 15, 2012, 08:51:42 AM
I'll just mention two Don Satz recommendations which I've been playing recently.

(http://www1.hbdirect.com/coverm/26/457026.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51W%2BeGJdWmL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The first, George Ritchie's Leipzig Chorales, is very good fun, one of the funnest records of these Chorales I've heard. Real uplifting joyful playing. I love it.

I'm having a harder time with the second, Robert Clark and John Peterson playing Orgelbuchlein. It just seems a bit too bland, and I'm not sure I like the sound of the organ much, I can't get caught up in the performance as Don in his review (on bachcantatas.org) found he could. It's the sort of thing I'm going to have to go back to, maybe one day I'll open up to it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 15, 2012, 10:15:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 15, 2012, 08:51:42 AM
I'll just mention two Don Satz recommendations which I've been playing recently.

(http://www1.hbdirect.com/coverm/26/457026.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51W%2BeGJdWmL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The first, George Ritchie's Leipzig Chorales, is very good fun, one of the funnest records of these Chorales I've heard. Real uplifting joyful playing. I love it.

I'm having a harder time with the second, Robert Clark and John Peterson playing Orgelbuchlein. It just seems a bit too bland, and I'm not sure I like the sound of the organ much, I can't get caught up in the performance as Don in his review (on bachcantatas.org) found he could. It's the sort of thing I'm going to have to go back to, maybe one day I'll open up to it.

Your post in this thread actually has sent me into an Orgelbüchlein journey, but forty six sets (soon to become forty seven - adding the Kooiman memorial set) are not listened to in a few days. I have not come to Ritchie and Clarke / Peterson yet.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 15, 2012, 11:31:43 PM
That was me who put the wrong image in there, I've not heard Ritchie's Orgelbuchlein, the record I have is of Leipzig Chorales. Have you heard his DVD/CD of AoF?

I'm sure you'll enjoy the Orgelbuchlein  journey premont, it's very good music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 16, 2012, 07:58:01 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 15, 2012, 11:31:43 PM
That was me who put the wrong image in there, I've not heard Ritchie's Orgelbuchlein, the record I have is of Leipzig Chorales. Have you heard his DVD/CD of AoF?

I'm sure you'll enjoy the Orgelbuchlein  journey premont, it's very good music.

Thanks, and even if it was not meant as a cycle, it stands listening in one sitting very well. Most recordings present it as a cycle, but there are some organists, who -for unexplained reasons- scatter the work almost casually through an integral (W,Jacob, W.Kraft, M-C Alain III, Amade) or change the order of the individual chorales (Herrick).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 16, 2012, 10:16:28 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 16, 2012, 07:58:01 AM...there are some organists, who -for inexplicable reasons- -unknown reasons- scatter the work almost casually through an integral (W,Jacob, W.Kraft, M-C Alain III, Amade) or change the order of the individual chorales (Herrick).
minor correction.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on December 16, 2012, 10:37:31 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 15, 2012, 08:51:42 AM
I'll just mention two Don Satz recommendations which I've been playing recently.

(http://www1.hbdirect.com/coverm/26/457026.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51W%2BeGJdWmL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The first, George Ritchie's Leipzig Chorales, is very good fun, one of the funnest records of these Chorales I've heard. Real uplifting joyful playing. I love it.

I'm having a harder time with the second, Robert Clark and John Peterson playing Orgelbuchlein. It just seems a bit too bland, and I'm not sure I like the sound of the organ much, I can't get caught up in the performance as Don in his review (on bachcantatas.org) found he could. It's the sort of thing I'm going to have to go back to, maybe one day I'll open up to it.

Sorry to hear that you're having a hard time with Clark/Peterson.  I went back and had a look at my review where I pointed out a few reasons why listeners might not care much for the performances.  In my case, I definitely did not like the performances at first.  However, upon repeated hearings, they won my heart.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2012, 11:10:06 AM
Oh yes! Your review is fantastic because you're  so open about your response to the performance. And that made it irresistible for me -- I had to hear it. I just know one day I'll put it on and it'll all sound just right, perfect. (As happened with David Cates's French suites, I'm embarrassed to say!)

By the way I'm glad to see that you still like it: that shows there's something special there.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 16, 2012, 12:06:14 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 16, 2012, 10:16:28 AM
minor correction.

Thanks.

BTW I think my intention was to write "unexplained", so I have edited the text.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 17, 2012, 09:41:31 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 15, 2012, 11:31:43 PM
Have you heard his [Ritchie´s] DVD/CD of AoF?

Yes, I got it a year or so ago. Have listened only once so far. Was not particularly impressed. Found him academical and mildly uninventive. So I need relistening.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 23, 2012, 11:44:00 AM
As I expected I'm starting to get more into the Clark/Peterson Orgelbuchlein.

I've been interested in some of the Passion chorales Bwv 618 - 624. Peterson laments. It's interesting to compare what he does with Rogg, who's far less rapt and tragic. He can't avoid the dissonances in Da Jesus an dem Kreuze stund for example. But I think it's true to say that there's a joyful pulse  in his playing of these  which isn't there with Peterson, at least not until Wir danken dir, Herr Jesu Christ.

Is that a theological difference do you think? Different ways of seeing the Passion story, maybe.

By the way, Orgelbuchlein has become my favourite Bach work. I think it works really well to listen to the whole thing, like a lieder cycle.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on December 24, 2012, 07:17:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 23, 2012, 11:44:00 AM
As I expected I'm starting to get more into the Clark/Peterson Orgelbuchlein.

I've been interested in some of the Passion chorales Bwv 618 - 624. Peterson laments. It's interesting to compare what he does with Rogg, who's far less rapt and tragic. He can't avoid the dissonances in Da Jesus an dem Kreuze stund for example. But I think it's true to say that there's a joyful pulse  in his playing of these  which isn't there with Peterson, at least not until Wir danken dir, Herr Jesu Christ.

Is that a theological difference do you think? Different ways of seeing the Passion story, maybe.

By the way, Orgelbuchlein has become my favourite Bach work. I think it works really well to listen to the whole thing, like a lieder cycle.
This is also my current favorite. Following recommendations here, I acquired the Saorgin Orgelbuchlein recording. This is a really impressive recording. Interesting, exciting, powerful, varied performance...beautifully recorded on a wonderful sounding instrument.   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 25, 2012, 11:30:10 PM
I haven't seen Lionel Rogg's complete(ish) very lovely second set of the Bach Organ works (Harmonia Mundi, Arlesheim Silbermann organ) that inexpensively in a while:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VTRPQ06TL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
J.S.Bach
Organ Works
L.Rogg

Harmonia Mundi (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000027OAA/goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 26, 2012, 12:15:55 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 25, 2012, 11:30:10 PM
I haven't seen Lionel Rogg's complete(ish) very lovely second set of the Bach Organ works (Harmonia Mundi, Arlesheim Silbermann organ) that inexpensively in a while:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VTRPQ06TL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
J.S.Bach
Organ Works
L.Rogg

Harmonia Mundi (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL26/goodmusicguide-20)

Something strange happens. When I click on your link, Pletnev´s Beethoven symphonies pops up. ???
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 26, 2012, 12:26:40 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 26, 2012, 12:15:55 AM
Something strange happens. When I click on your link, Pletnev´s Beethoven symphonies pops up. ???
darnit. My bad. Fixed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 26, 2012, 12:50:58 AM
That's the Rogg recording I have. I didn't know he had recorded another.

Christmas was fun. I played one of my guests the  Vivaldi transcription on this CD. She was bowled over. The organ sounds very nice, dusky, colouful. I wouldn't mind hearing more stuff played on it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/615RbtPAD1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Do people here all have sub-woofers? Should I investigate them?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 26, 2012, 06:36:42 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 26, 2012, 12:50:58 AM
That's the Rogg recording I have. I didn't know he had recorded another.
Do people here all have sub-woofers? Should I investigate them?

Yes... three cycles.     But the Harmonia Mundi one is the only one that made it onto CD, complete. The first got stuck on Oryx LPs, was recorded in the early 60s...  all or largely on the Zurich Metzler Organ. Then came the above set around 1970 and shortly thereafter another, now for EMI. But only bits and pieces have made it onto gEMIni re-issues. Recorded on various instruments in Switzerland and Denmark, judging from the CDs I have.

Sub-woofers are not all that necessary... unless you are really getting into organ music and must have it rattle your lunch, not just your ears.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 28, 2012, 05:53:59 AM
Ok, no sub woofers for me then. Just saved another £1000.

Re this concerto, BWV 594, which got under my skin on Christmas day. I thought I'd listen to the two Rubsam recordings. The second is articulated very differently from the first. In the second there's more a sense of rhetoric as rhythm -- small units of music responding eloquently to each other. The first isn't broken up like that at all.

I thought I'd check to see if similar things are happening elsewhere so I listened to his two recordings of O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig (BWV 618) from Orgelbuchlein. And yes, there's a much greater sense of musical components in dialogue and response in the Naxos. This music's a canon, so here the interaction is partly vertical. I don't think it's too unfair to say that in the Philips he basically just goes for the big tune and all the rest is just stuff in the background. The Naxos is glorious -- really special.

I don't know whether there is generally an increased interest in rhetorical ideas in the Naxos, whether this is something which really marks his later style. Neither do I know how to make all this fit with something I think premont once said: that when the Philips AoF came out Rubsam said he was influenced by Leonhardt's ideas in the DHM recording.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 28, 2012, 06:16:44 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 29, 2011, 09:46:04 AM
One of my favourite chorale arrangement compositions for organ is BWV 686 Aus tiefer Not schrei' ich zu dir, which belongs to the Third Part of Bach's Clavier-Übung. It gives me the shivers.
Ton Koopman's performance, played on the great Silbermann organ of the Freiberger Dom, is very impressive.

And what about these three?

http://www.mediafire.com/?6r512bpcj273492

http://www.mediafire.com/?2w82izcaw652vkn

http://www.mediafire.com/?2186wu184euuo02

To get rid of all those happy Christmas feelings, I'm back to reality and BWV 686 again. ;)

What about these two?

http://www.mediafire.com/?ki6agi5w85p1x9v

http://www.mediafire.com/?6k56dh7dekcaqi1

WARNING:
maybe sub-woofers are required! ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 28, 2012, 07:18:45 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 28, 2012, 05:53:59 AM
Re this concerto, BWV 594, which got under my skin on Christmas day. I thought I'd listen to the two Rubsam recordings. The second is articulated very differently from the first. In the second there's more a sense of rhetoric as rhythm -- small units of music responding eloquently to each other. The first isn't broken up like that at all.

I thought I'd check to see if similar things are happening elsewhere so I listened to his two recordings of O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig (BWV 618) from Orgelbuchlein. And yes, there's a much greater sense of musical components in dialogue and response in the Naxos. This music's a canon, so here the interaction is partly vertical. I don't think it's too unfair to say that in the Philips he basically just goes for the big tune and all the rest is just stuff in the background. The Naxos is glorious -- really special.

I don't know whether there is generally an increased interest in rhetorical ideas in the Naxos, whether this is something which really marks his later style. Neither do I know how to make all this fit with something I think premont once said: that when the Philips AoF came out Rubsam said he was influenced by Leonhardt's ideas in the DHM recording.

On that topic:

QuoteThe Philips recordings often are mentioned to me as a favorite set to have.
These recordings reflect a very young, energetic and technically polished reading.
My second set on Naxos then was more based on performance practice awareness
of old instruments in general, not just organ.
Thus, tempi became slower, rhythm inflections had to happen somewhat in rhetorical manner
and more stylish ornamentation was included.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 28, 2012, 07:35:46 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 28, 2012, 07:18:45 AM
On that topic:

That's great!

Where's that quote from?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 28, 2012, 09:28:43 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 28, 2012, 07:35:46 AM
That's great!

Where's that quote from?

My inbox.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 28, 2012, 09:40:48 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 28, 2012, 09:28:43 AM
My inbox.

Ahh. Respect.

Tell him that this fan in the UK would love to hear him give a concert  . . . anywhere in Europe.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 28, 2012, 09:43:11 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 28, 2012, 06:16:44 AM
To get rid of all those happy Christmas feelings, I'm back to reality and BWV 686 again. ;)

What about these two?

http://www.mediafire.com/?ki6agi5w85p1x9v

http://www.mediafire.com/?6k56dh7dekcaqi1

WARNING:
maybe sub-woofers are required! ;D

Thanks for doing this -- I'll download and listen tomorrow or Sunday. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 29, 2012, 12:24:32 PM
I've listened to them all just once, Marc.

I really like the one with the file name S 0686 - 20121228-1.mp3. I like the growling bass and the way the player relishes dissonances. I like the decision he's made to go for blend rather than contrapuntal clarity: I think that makes the music emotionally more ardent. I like the way s/he makes the music breath, ebb and flow, texturally -- from passages relatively thick and weighty to passages less dense. I also like the way he tells a story with the music, the joyful dance at the end.

I saw something to like in all of them except S 0686 - 20121228-2.mp3 -- which I had difficulty staying with to the end. Didactic, I felt as though I was having the counterpoint demonstrated. . Even S 686 - 20110129-_.mp3 had one  saving grace which I found not unendearing  (a sort of bourgeois dignity)

I want to hear S 686 - 20110129.mp3. At first I was really impressed, but there's something he's doing with the articulation which bugs me, at least in the context of a comparative listen.



Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 29, 2012, 01:25:41 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 29, 2012, 12:24:32 PM
I've listened to them all just once, Marc.

I really like the one with the file name S 0686 - 20121228-1.mp3. I like the growling bass and the way the player relishes dissonances. I like the decision he's made to go for blend rather than contrapuntal clarity: I think that makes the music emotionally more ardent. I like the way s/he makes the music breath, ebb and flow, texturally -- from passages relatively thick and weighty to passages less dense. I also like the way he tells a story with the music, the joyful dance at the end.

I saw something to like in all of them except S 0686 - 20121228-2.mp3 -- which I had difficulty staying with to the end. Didactic, I felt as though I was having the counterpoint demonstrated. . Even S 686 - 20110129-_.mp3 had one  saving grace which I found not unendearing  (a sort of bourgeois dignity)

I want to hear S 686 - 20110129.mp3. At first I was really impressed, but there's something he's doing with the articulation which bugs me, at least in the context of a comparative listen.

Mandryke, thanks for your short review.

It proofs again that tastes differ, but that makes things more interesting.

Of the two 'new' ones, I definitely prefer S 0686 - 20121228-2! Apparantly this is how I'd like this psalm to be told: no escape for the listener, grim and stern, yet with enough breath in its playing (articulation, phrasing) and with modest agogics. It brings me in some kind of a trance. I must add that I also love the recording sound. Magnificent.
The one you like more (S 0686 - 20121228-1) is a bit too much for me. And so is the 'vastness' of the acoustics. For that reason I would have preferred at least less legato playing. As a result, I find this performance too opaque.

(I will wait with mentioning the names of both organists and instruments. Maybe there are other members who want to have a listen to them .... and/or having a guess who's playing.)

The 'bourgeois dignity' performance has been discussed before, and IMHO this one is quite something special: yes, too much legato, but very impressive in the end. It makes my head bow deep. Organist is (Dutch) Cor van Wageningen, the organ is the Schnitger et al of the Martinikerk, Groningen, NL.
The one that bugged you is Werner Jacob on the Silbermann organ of the Freiberger Dom, Germany. I think it's OK, but also slightly 'middle of the road'.
You did not mention S 686 - 20110129-, which is an interpretation that I do not like. Organist is the Japanese Kei Koito, and from what I've heard so far from her Bach I can say that I don't understand her intentions very much. But of course this could be my 'bad'.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 29, 2012, 01:51:56 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 28, 2012, 05:53:59 AM

I don't know whether there is generally an increased interest in rhetorical ideas in the Naxos, whether this is something which really marks his later style. Neither do I know how to make all this fit with something I think premont once said: that when the Philips AoF came out Rubsam said he was influenced by Leonhardt's ideas in the DHM recording.

Rübsam referred in that interview to his Bach integral on Philips, and not to the AoF which wasn´t released at the time of the interview. And he also referred to Leonhardt´s general style, not just Leonhardt´s AoF..
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 29, 2012, 01:56:10 PM
Quote from: Marc on December 29, 2012, 01:25:41 PM
(I will wait with mentioning the names of both organists and instruments. Maybe there are other members who want to have a listen to them .... and/or having a guess who's playing.)

Yes, of course.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 29, 2012, 02:12:30 PM
[quote Wolfgang Rübsam]
The Philips recordings often are mentioned to me as a favorite set to have.
These recordings reflect a very young, energetic and technically polished reading.
My second set on Naxos then was more based on performance practice awareness
of old instruments in general, not just organ.
Thus, tempi became slower, rhythm inflections had to happen somewhat in rhetorical manner
and more stylish ornamentation was included.


Yes, Rübsam´s Bach integral on Philips is youthful and brilliant, but compared to what was available at the time of recording (1976/77), it also displays a certain occupation with rethorical effects, which made the recording special and interesting for a young HIP enthusiast like me. Rübsam certainly outdid himself as to that regard in the Naxos set, but this doesn´t detract from his Philips set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 30, 2012, 02:59:04 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 29, 2012, 01:25:41 PM
Mandryke, thanks for your short review.

It proofs again that tastes differ, but that makes things more interesting.

Of the two 'new' ones, I definitely prefer S 0686 - 20121228-2! Apparantly this is how I'd like this psalm to be told: no escape for the listener, grim and stern, yet with enough breath in its playing (articulation, phrasing) and with modest agogics. It brings me in some kind of a trance. I must add that I also love the recording sound. Magnificent.
The one you like more (S 0686 - 20121228-1) is a bit too much for me. And so is the 'vastness' of the acoustics. For that reason I would have preferred at least less legato playing. As a result, I find this performance too opaque.

(I will wait with mentioning the names of both organists and instruments. Maybe there are other members who want to have a listen to them .... and/or having a guess who's playing.)

The 'bourgeois dignity' performance has been discussed before, and IMHO this one is quite something special: yes, too much legato, but very impressive in the end. It makes my head bow deep. Organist is (Dutch) Cor van Wageningen, the organ is the Schnitger et al of the Martinikerk, Groningen, NL.
The one that bugged you is Werner Jacob on the Silbermann organ of the Freiberger Dom, Germany. I think it's OK, but also slightly 'middle of the road'.
You did not mention S 686 - 20110129-, which is an interpretation that I do not like. Organist is the Japanese Kei Koito, and from what I've heard so far from her Bach I can say that I don't understand her intentions very much. But of course this could be my 'bad'.

OK, OK. I'll listen again to S 0686 - 20121228-2.

The whole exercise has made me see how decisions about blend versus clarity are really important in organ music, like in string quartet music and symphonies.  People seem to sometimes want clarity in contrapuntal music, because of the play of interacting voices. But the performer may be (justifiably?) more focused on exploring textures. This is interesting (for me  :) )
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 30, 2012, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 29, 2012, 01:25:41 PM

http://www.mediafire.com/?ki6agi5w85p1x9v

http://www.mediafire.com/?6k56dh7dekcaqi1

I will wait with mentioning the names of both organists and instruments. Maybe there are other members who want to have a listen to them .... and/or having a guess who's playing.

Two very different and in their own way distinctive approaches to this marvellous piece of organ music.

I do not think I have heard the first before. It is essentially a romantic interpretation, legato, vertical in conception and stressing the shifting harmonies and suppressing the counterpoint. I do not think that Bach. the supreme master of counterpoint, would have thought of the music in that way. The organ used is as far as I can hear tuned a=440 in equal temperature. It does not sound like a genuine romantic organ but rather like the greater organs built first and foremost in Germany in the 1950es or early 60es under the influence of the organ movement. It might f.i. be the Steinmeyer organ (Marien-orgel from 1959) in the monastery church in Ottobeuren. Or the Metzler organ in Grossmünster Zürich. The organist may be Dutch or maybe French, but from the somewhat older generation. I would expect f.i. Feike Asma and Piet van Egmond to play in a more informed style, so he may even be older than these.

The second recording is played on another great organ, the character of which is influenced by baroque French organ building (low rather soft but full mixtures and  French-sounding reeds). It is tuned a=ca. 415 and  the temperature is unequal. First I thought of Andreas Silbermann, but the organ sounds bigger than the ones he built, so I ruled the Silbermann organ in St. Thomas, Strassbourg out (I have ordered but not yet received the new Aeolus box), and then I considered the Gabler organ in Weingarten, which fits the description. The very informed playing - almost overarticulated (to quote RdS) points to a genuine scholar and even if it is a long time since I listened to Ewald Kooiman´s recording of this piece (and I have not "control-listened" now), I think it must be him. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bachxtehude on December 30, 2012, 06:37:16 PM
Just what I was looking for!
Thanks for this thread,premont.I'll have fun reading through,and already see that I have some of the recordings in the original post.One of them I just found tonight online. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 31, 2012, 01:21:41 AM
Quote from: Bachxtehude on December 30, 2012, 06:37:16 PM
Just what I was looking for!

Say what?  ;)

Welcome and enjoy!

Quote from: Bachxtehude
Thanks for this thread,premont.I'll have fun reading through,and already see that I have some of the recordings in the original post.One of them I just found tonight online. :)

Dunno why, but somehow this is my favourite thread, too. :D

Quote from: Mandryka on December 30, 2012, 02:59:04 AM
OK, OK. I'll listen again to S 0686 - 20121228-2.

The whole exercise has made me see how decisions about blend versus clarity are really important in organ music, like in string quartet music and symphonies.  People seem to sometimes want clarity in contrapuntal music, because of the play of interacting voices. But the performer may be (justifiably?) more focused on exploring textures. This is interesting (for me  :) )

Yes, I agree. It's interesting and it makes comparative listening so much fun IMHO. And there's of course nothing 'wrong' with your preferences, even though I have a different experience. I'm mesmerized, you're bored, or vice versa. But we both explained why and how. That's OK.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 31, 2012, 01:27:00 AM
Quote from: Bachxtehude on December 30, 2012, 06:37:16 PM
Just what I was looking for!
Thanks for this thread,premont.I'll have fun reading through,and already see that I have some of the recordings in the original post.One of them I just found tonight online. :)

We also have a Buxtehude thread and a general organ music thread

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3769.0.html

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5263.0.html
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 31, 2012, 01:57:20 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 30, 2012, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 28, 2012, 06:16:44 AM
To get rid of all those happy Christmas feelings, I'm back to reality and BWV 686 again. ;)

What about these two?

http://www.mediafire.com/?ki6agi5w85p1x9v

http://www.mediafire.com/?6k56dh7dekcaqi1

Two very different and in their own way distinctive approaches to this marvellous piece of organ music.

I do not think I have heard the first before. It is essentially a romantic interpretation, legato, vertical in conception and stressing the shifting harmonies and suppressing the counterpoint. I do not think that Bach. the supreme master of counterpoint, would have thought of the music in that way. The organ used is as far as I can hear tuned a=440 in equal temperature. It does not sound like a genuine romantic organ but rather like the greater organs built first and foremost in Germany in the 1950es or early 60es under the influence of the organ movement. It might f.i. be the Steinmeyer organ (Marien-orgel from 1959) in the monastery church in Ottobeuren. Or the Metzler organ in Grossmünster Zürich. The organist may be Dutch or maybe French, but from the somewhat older generation. I would expect f.i. Feike Asma and Piet van Egmond to play in a more informed style, so he may even be older than these.

The second recording is played on another great organ, the character of which is influenced by baroque French organ building (low rather soft but full mixtures and  French-sounding reeds). It is tuned a=ca. 415 and  the temperature is unequal. First I thought of Andreas Silbermann, but the organ sounds bigger than the ones he built, so I ruled the Silbermann organ in St. Thomas, Strassbourg out (I have ordered but not yet received the new Aeolus box), and then I considered the Gabler organ in Weingarten, which fits the description. The very informed playing - almost overarticulated (to quote RdS) points to a genuine scholar and even if it is a long time since I listened to Ewald Kooiman´s recording of this piece (and I have not "control-listened" now), I think it must be him.

Premont, thanks for your insights.

The first organist is Dutch Jolanda Zwoferink (born 1969). She's well known as interpreter of the French Romantic area and she's also founder of the record company label Prestare. Zwoferink is, as she has emphasized herself in some interviews, not part of the famous/notorious Dutch 'HIP-gang', despite the fact that HIP-influenced Bram Beekman was one of her teachers.

http://www.jolandazwoferink.nl/welkom?lang=en

The instrument she's playing is the large Silbermann/Hildebrandt organ of the Dresdner Hofkirche. AFAIK, it is tuned a' = ca. 415 Hz (equal temperament).

Here's a link to this particular issue:

(http://104.imagebam.com/download/Y9kQG-Sd74KNC9EmhTwhow/22936/229350783/Bach%20Zwoferink%201.jpg)

http://www.zwoferinkcd-productions.nl/pages/catalogusview.php?code=3331566&pagina=index

It's not my preferred way of Bach playing, but I like to listen to different approaches, and sometimes it's nice to get blown away in a both romantic and monumental way. :)

The second performance is by German Ute Gremmel-Geuchen (yes, it's a lady's affair! ;)), a pupil of Ewald Kooiman. It's indeed part of the new Bach organ integral of Aeolus.

http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/All-Discs/AE10761-Bach-Johann-Sebastian-Complete-Organ-Works

She's playing the Johann Andreas Silbermann organ of the Saint-Thomas in Strasbourg, pitched a' = 387 Hz (original pitch, reinstalled by Kern in 1979).
I like this performance very much, though one might argue that sometimes it's a bit too 'strict'. But, as I mentioned before, it's certainly able to get me into a trance! Therefore: THUMBS UP!

(http://106.imagebam.com/download/o-ZakDd7-xAS5SvBojv0Ow/22936/229351480/thumbs-up-smiley.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 31, 2012, 03:01:27 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 31, 2012, 01:57:20 AM
The first organist is Dutch Jolanda Zwoferink (born 1969). She's well known as interpreter of the French Romantic area and she's also founder of the record company label Prestare. Zwoferink is, as she has emphasized herself in some interviews, not part of the famous/notorious Dutch 'HIP-gang', despite the fact that HIP-influenced Bram Beekman was one of her teachers.

The instrument she's playing is the large Silbermann/Hildebrandt organ of the Dresdner Hofkirche. AFAIK, it is tuned a' = ca. 415 Hz (equal temperament).

Never heard Zwoferink. Recall having seen the CD and considered a purchase for the sake of the Silbermann organ. I own a small handful of other CDs played on this organ, and I must say that I do not even in retrospect recognize the sound on Zwoferink´s CD. I have not got perfect pitch and have to realize that the recorder I used for pitch-comparation is too low. Next time I have to use my tuning fork. It is interesting for historical reasons to listen to a romantic interpretation like this - my first thought when I heard it was, that this might have been the way Cesar Franck played - but honestly I do not think I would get much impulse to listen to it more than once. I wonder if she intends to do a complete Bach set on that orgn.

Quote from: Marc
The second performance is by German Ute Gremmel-Geuchen (yes, it's a lady's affair! ;)), a pupil of Ewald Kooiman. It's indeed part of the new Bach organ integral of Aeolus.

http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/All-Discs/AE10761-Bach-Johann-Sebastian-Complete-Organ-Works

She's playing the Johann Andreas Silbermann organ of the Saint-Thomas in Strasbourg, pitched a' = 387 Hz (original pitch, reinstalled by Kern in 1979).
I like this performance very much, though one might argue that sometimes it's a bit too 'strict'. But, as I mentioned before, it's certainly able to get me into a trance! Therefore: THUMBS UP!


This possibility I had considered already, as you can see, but I had never heard Ute Gremmel-Geuchen and did not know her style. So I could not say. Her style is however a most distinctive Kooiman-style. The style of the organ is also rather distinctive, but I am surprised, that this organ sounds that big, so I considered the Gabler organ more likely, even if the boomy bass were missing. If I had used my tuning fork, I would have discovered, that the pitch was too low.

Thanks for this intersting game. :)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 31, 2012, 08:35:41 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 31, 2012, 03:01:27 AM
Never heard Zwoferink. Recall having seen the CD and considered a purchase for the sake of the Silbermann organ. I own a small handful of other CDs played on this organ, and I must say that I do not even in retrospect recognize the sound on Zwoferink´s CD. I have not got perfect pitch and have to realize that the recorder I used for pitch-comparation is too low. Next time I have to use my tuning fork. It is interesting for historical reasons to listen to a romantic interpretation like this - my first thought when I heard it was, that this might have been the way Cesar Franck played - but honestly I do not think I would get much impulse to listen to it more than once. I wonder if she intends to do a complete Bach set on that orgn.



What that shows is that (deliberately) uninformed organ playing is not history. I think you can see the same tendencies elsewhere-- with performers like Hengelbrock. I bet there are examples from harpsichordists too. Someone here once made a comment along those lines about Vartolo's Frescabaldi and Ludger Remy's Froberger. There's a relation here to postmodernism which I would like to explore some day.

The dissonances are really striking in Jolanda Zwoferink  performances (I'm going from memory here -- I've not had a chance to relisten) If that's right, is that because of the registration?

It certainly would be interesting to know if she's said anything about her performance principles.

I'm quite tempted to buy her CD, as long as Marc doesn't warn me off it. Same for Cor van Wageningen's. For some reason I can't get what he does out of my head.

Quote from: (: premont :) on December 31, 2012, 03:01:27 AM


Thanks for this intersting game. :)

Seconded
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 31, 2012, 08:37:33 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 31, 2012, 01:27:00 AM
We also have a Buxtehude thread and a general organ music thread

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3769.0.html

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5263.0.html

And a Sweelinck thread, which I found really useful (it put me on to Glen wilson's CD, for example)

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15617.msg384851.html#msg384851
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 31, 2012, 09:27:37 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 31, 2012, 08:35:41 AM
[About Zwoferink/Bach]
I'm quite tempted to buy her CD, as long as Marc doesn't warn me off it. Same for Cor van Wageningen's. For some reason I can't get what he does out of my head.

Don't worry, I won't warn you off the Zwoferink.
And certainly not off the Van Wageningen! ;)

Dunno about ordering from outside NL, but here are two handy e-mail adresses to find out what's possible:

info@prestarecd-productions.nl
info@toccata-records.nl

Zwoferink's disc is catalogue number Prestare ZWF 3331566.
http://www.zwoferinkcd-productions.nl/pages/catalogusview.php?code=3331566&pagina=index&taal=en
Van Wageningen's disc is Toccata TRR0941.
http://www.toccata-records.nl/overig-cd/77-trr0941.html

Mind you, last month a second Bach disc by Jolanda Zwoferink (again recorded in Dresden) was issued, with a.o. BWV 542, 543 and 582, the Partita BWV 767, and various chorale arrangements, among them BWV 659 and 662. But, as she stated in an interview last year, there are no plans for an integral.

http://www.zwoferinkcd-productions.nl/pages/catalogusview.php?code=3331567&pagina=index&taal=en
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 01, 2013, 02:33:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 31, 2012, 08:35:41 AM
What that shows is that (deliberately) uninformed organ playing is not history. I think you can see the same tendencies elsewhere-- with performers like Hengelbrock. I bet there are examples from harpsichordists too. Someone here once made a comment along those lines about Vartolo's Frescabaldi and Ludger Remy's Froberger. There's a relation here to postmodernism which I would like to explore some day.

I see this tendency as an expression of subjectivism, which may be extreme (Lena Jacobsson) and for that reason rather romantic in spirit than postmodernistic.

Quote from: Mandryka
The dissonances are really striking in Jolanda Zwoferink  performances (I'm going from memory here -- I've not had a chance to relisten) If that's right, is that because of the registration?

Her registration is a standard registration for pieces like this (16´ plenum up to mixtures with added reeds in the pedal), and I think the dissonances shine through because of her pronounced legato playing.

Quote from: Mandryka
Same for Cor van Wageningen's. For some reason I can't get what he does out of my head.

Van Wageningen´s BWV 686 took me from the first listening. However even if it is slow and relative legato, I think he keeps within stylistic limits..
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 01, 2013, 03:16:07 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 01, 2013, 02:33:18 AM
I see this tendency as an expression of subjectivism, which may be extreme (Lena Jacobsson) and for that reason rather romantic in spirit than postmodernistic.



Rather than the inspired juxtaposition of disparate performance styles.  I need to think about that.

This was one reason why I was curious about what her performance principle are --whether Jolanda Zwoferink  rejects historicism outright.

Lena Jacobson's Buxtehude  is grounded in ideas about baroque rhetoric isn't it? She wrote a paper called "Musical Rhetoric in Buxtehude's Free Organ Works" which I've not seen, I don't have access to a university library any more. I've always assumed that the CD is a sort of expression of the ideas in the research. I've been listening to that CD quite a bit -- that's what led me to explore what she's put on youtube.

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 01, 2013, 02:33:18 AM

Her registration is a standard registration for pieces like this (16´ plenum up to mixtures with added reeds in the pedal), and I think the dissonances shine through because of her pronounced legato playing.


Do you think real romantic performance would bring out dissonances like that?

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 01, 2013, 02:33:18 AM

Van Wageningen´s BWV 686 took me from the first listening. However even if it is slow and relative legato, I think he keeps within stylistic limits..

I agree, it's interesting. Unfortunately it's too difficult to order his CD from the UK. They don't take credit card or paypal, you have to make a transfer direct to their account which isn't so straightforward from sterling to euros.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 01, 2013, 04:21:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 01, 2013, 03:16:07 AM
Lena Jacobson's Buxtehude  is grounded in ideas about baroque rhetoric isn't it? She wrote a paper called "Musical Rhetoric in Buxtehude's Free Organ Works" which I've not seen, I don't have access to a university library any more. I've always assumed that the CD is a sort of expression of the ideas in the research. I've been listening to that CD quite a bit -- that's what led me to explore what she's put on youtube. 

Interpreting baroque music is about displaying common human affects and presupposes a high degree of objectivism. Whatever Lena Jacobson claims to be the basis for her playing style, I think she expresses an extreme subjectivism, which is improvisatory in nature and is about her own sentiments, i.e. romantic. The more I listen to her, the more I get that impression, not the least after listening to the Scarlatti sonata.

Quote from: Mandryka
Do you think real romantic performance would bring out dissonances like that? 

If you, when using the words "real romantic performance", mean when played in similar style and registration on a romantic organ, the answer is no, it would sound softer. So do you with "inspired juxtaposition of disparate performance styles" mean played in romantic style on a baroque organ? Well, above I have only commented her playing style, not the organ from that point of view. Thinking it over, I  tend to believe, that her choice of a baroque organ is well considered. If she had chosen to play Bach in romantic style on a romantic organ, she would miss most of the target group, she probably aims at, which I think consists of educated music lovers, who find baroque or neo-baroque organs obligatory for Bach. A similar reason with the opposite sign why Wolfgang Rübsam chose the piano for his Bach suites and not the clavichord or the harpsichord, the average American (his presumed target group) rejecting anything but piano.

Quote from: Mandryka
I agree, it's interesting. Unfortunately it's too difficult to order his CD from the UK. They don't take credit card or paypal, you have to make a transfer direct to their account which isn't so straightforward from sterling to euros.
Yes certainly, but I have several times been compelled to do so, because I eagerly wanted the CD´s, and this was the only way to go.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 01, 2013, 04:52:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 01, 2013, 03:16:07 AM
[....]
This was one reason why I was curious about what her performance principle are --whether Jolanda Zwoferink  rejects historicism outright.

Here's Zwoferink quoted from an interview in a Dutch reformatory newspaper (Reformatorisch Dagblad), december 2011. The translation is a bit clumsy. It is done by yers truly, you knöw. :-[

What is the ideal Bach Interpretation?

"Not the Dutch practice of the past twenty years, which is characterized by non-legato, all notes unbound. I don't want to be part of that school. I feel rather inspired by recordings of Piet Kee, Arie Keijzer and Charles de Wolff. Eventually my interpretation roots in the French organ school, like the approach of Marcel Dupré. The starting point is legato playing, the tied game. From there I make the choice whether I play with or without bounded notes. I put every note I play on the magnifier. With every note I choose the desired articulation and then play consistently according to the chosen method. The general mood has to be a quiet rendition. Incidentally, Bach can be played convincingly in at least 20 different ways."
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 01, 2013, 07:44:01 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 01, 2013, 04:52:18 AM
Here's Zwoferink quoted from an interview in a Dutch reformatory newspaper (Reformatorisch Dagblad), december 2011. The translation is a bit clumsy. It is done by yers truly, you knöw. :-[

What is the ideal Bach Interpretation?

"Not the Dutch practice of the past twenty years, which is characterized by non-legato, all notes unbound. I don't want to be part of that school. I feel rather inspired by recordings of Piet Kee, Arie Keijzer and Charles de Wolff. Eventually my interpretation roots in the French organ school, like the approach of Marcel Dupré. The starting point is legato playing, the tied game. From there I make the choice whether I play with or without bounded notes. I put every note I play on the magnifier. With every note I choose the desired articulation and then play consistently according to the chosen method. The general mood has to be a quiet rendition. Incidentally, Bach can be played convincingly in at least 20 different ways."

Thanks, Marc, it seems that she rejects historicism.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on January 01, 2013, 09:35:10 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 01, 2013, 04:52:18 AM
Here's Zwoferink quoted from an interview in a Dutch reformatory newspaper (Reformatorisch Dagblad), december 2011. The translation is a bit clumsy. It is done by yers truly, you knöw. :-[


The translation is anything but clumsy.  But what do you mean by a "reformatory newspaper".  Here in the USA, reformatory is a term, now somewhat obsolete, for a prison designed for juveniles.   I'm guessing a connection to the Dutch Reformed Church, which does exist here in the USA in a non-obsolete fashion.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 01, 2013, 10:02:40 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 01, 2013, 04:52:18 AM
Here's Zwoferink quoted from an interview in a Dutch reformatory newspaper (Reformatorisch Dagblad), december 2011. The translation is a bit clumsy. It is done by yers truly, you knöw. :-[

What is the ideal Bach Interpretation?

"Not the Dutch practice of the past twenty years, which is characterized by non-legato, all notes unbound. I don't want to be part of that school. I feel rather inspired by recordings of Piet Kee, Arie Keijzer and Charles de Wolff. Eventually my interpretation roots in the French organ school, like the approach of Marcel Dupré. The starting point is legato playing, the tied game. From there I make the choice whether I play with or without bounded notes. I put every note I play on the magnifier. With every note I choose the desired articulation and then play consistently according to the chosen method. The general mood has to be a quiet rendition. Incidentally, Bach can be played convincingly in at least 20 different ways."

Thanks -- much appreciated. That point about "quiet rendition" is a bit puzzling, given that the choral prelude you posted is hardly quiet!

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bachxtehude on January 01, 2013, 10:25:02 AM
@Marc,premont,and Mandryka...thanks for the welcome and links to the other threads.Much appreciated.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 01, 2013, 11:24:31 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 01, 2013, 09:35:10 AM
The translation is anything but clumsy.  But what do you mean by a "reformatory newspaper".  Here in the USA, reformatory is a term, now somewhat obsolete, for a prison designed for juveniles.   I'm guessing a connection to the Dutch Reformed Church, which does exist here in the USA in a non-obsolete fashion.

Indeed. I had better written 'reformed'.

Quote from: Mandryka on January 01, 2013, 10:02:40 AM
Thanks -- much appreciated. That point about "quiet rendition" is a bit puzzling, given that the choral prelude you posted is hardly quiet!

I think she means: not rushed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 01, 2013, 12:50:58 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 01, 2013, 04:52:18 AM
Here's Zwoferink quoted from an interview december 2011.
What is the ideal Bach Interpretation?

"Not the Dutch practice of the past twenty years, which is characterized by non-legato, all notes unbound."

Having read this statement a bit closer I am surprised, that a well-educated Dutch organist can say this nonsense. The so called Dutch practice is not to play all notes unbound, but to group the notes in small unities or "cell´s", which can be played non-legato or strictly legato as well.  F.i. : in a group of three short notes played legato the first will seem to receive a small accent, even if this actually is impossible to do on an organ. But it feels so, it happens in our mind.  The "trick" is to be able to indicate the rhythm and distinguish between good and less good notes in this way. The first note under the bow also often receives a small agogoc accent (it is held a nanosec. too long) in order to support the impression of good note when wanted. The playing of Gustav Leonhardt among several others offers examples in abundance of this practice. Can Zwoferink be unaware of this? No, she can´t, and this is the reason why one has got to read her words with some reservation. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 01, 2013, 08:47:44 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 01, 2013, 12:50:58 PM
Having read this statement a bit closer I am surprised, that a well-educated Dutch organist can say this nonsense. The so called Dutch practice is not to play all notes unbound, but to group the notes in small unities or "cell´s", which can be played non-legato or strictly legato as well.  F.i. : in a group of three short notes played legato the first will seem to receive a small accent, even if this actually is impossible to do on an organ. But it feels so, it happens in our mind.  The "trick" is to be able to indicate the rhythm and distinguish between good and less good notes in this way. The first note under the bow also often receives a small agogoc accent (it is held a nanosec. too long) in order to support the impression of good note when wanted. The playing of Gustav Leonhardt among several others offers examples in abundance of this practice. Can Zwoferink be unaware of this? No, she can´t, and this is the reason why one has got to read her words with some reservation.

Yes. Agreed.

And if I may add: I don't understand those twenty years, either. The Dutch HIP-related movement exists much longer. Plus: to what part(s) of this movement is she referring? There are quite some differences between Leonhardt, Koopman, Kooiman et cetera. (Only mentioning the keyboard 'tigers'.)

Funny thing though: she rejects the 'historic' approach to play Bach, but she certainly used a 'historic' claim to support her opinion that Bach should be played on Silbermann or Hildebrandt organs:
IMO, Bach composed for this central German organ type, for instruments with a monumental, wide and lovely sound, which also were equipped with a snappy sounding Hauptwerk. The organ in the Cathedral of Dresden possesses all registers known that Bach wanted: the Untersatz 32' and Fagott 16', and various strings and tremulants. Add to that the excellent acoustics and the picture is complete.

About Schnitger:
The North German organs of f.i. Schnitger are more distinguished, but possess less ground. And Schnitger's flute registers are more penetrating than the sweet Silbermann flutes.

A problem sometimes with interviews like these is, I think, that there is an apparant necessity among musicians to make really firm ideologic (or contra-ideologic) statements. Of course Zwoferink isn't unique in doing so: many musicians do the same. And I must say, that the Dutch have a tradition in this. Maybe it can be linked to our calvinistic background. We like to show our lifted forefinger.

One needs to realize in this particular case, that there are many Dutch HIP-related musicians and critics who have said goodbye for good to the non-HIP approach for already thousands of times during the last 40 years or so. And this has caused annoyance, which I think is understandable.

Of course Zwoferink's statements did cause quite some reactions. And yes: again there were (informed) people who again claimed that Zwoferink's way of playing was outdated. Which is, whether these people like it or not, nonsense. The practice proves the opposite. There are still musicians who want others things to be said with their interpretations. And there will still be more than enough listeners who enjoy another way of music making, 'outdated' or not. Needless to say: there were also many positive reactions to both her disc and her interview. One could almost sense a sigh of relief among people who felt that they were ridiculed by rulers of the HIP-doctrine, who claim to 'know it all'.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on January 02, 2013, 06:38:49 AM
Don't let me interrupt this very absorbing conversation. I've been comparing Leipzig chorale recordings: Astrionio, Rubsam, Walcha, Foccroulle, and Otto. I take it that when Otto is referred to as old fashioned, it is for different reasons than Zwoferink? Is it that Otto's playing is rather strict? That was my impression tonight.
Kooiman seems to get mentioned quite a bit here but not with the same glowing admiration as Walcha, Rubsam and Rogg. I'm tempted by Kooiman's complete set (Kooiman et al). So was Kooiman in the HIP vanguard then? Sorry if my questions are a  bit inane. So are some folks here enamored with Kooiman? I downloaded one Kooiman track (651) and love it. But his set isn't cheap. I have to say the Astrionio Leipzig CD has been a great time for me (for my jogging). I don't know, I always want more. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 02, 2013, 09:57:22 AM
Quote from: milk on January 02, 2013, 06:38:49 AM
Don't let me interrupt this very absorbing conversation. I've been comparing Leipzig chorale recordings: Astrionio, Rubsam, Walcha, Foccroulle, and Otto. I take it that when Otto is referred to as old fashioned, it is for different reasons than Zwoferink? Is it that Otto's playing is rather strict? That was my impression tonight.
Kooiman seems to get mentioned quite a bit here but not with the same glowing admiration as Walcha, Rubsam and Rogg. I'm tempted by Kooiman's complete set (Kooiman et al). So was Kooiman in the HIP vanguard then? Sorry if my questions are a  bit inane. So are some folks here enamored with Kooiman? I downloaded one Kooiman track (651) and love it. But his set isn't cheap. I have to say the Astrionio Leipzig CD has been a great time for me (for my jogging). I don't know, I always want more.

First reactions to your post, which is not interrupting anything AFAIC.

I haven't heard the Otto and Astrionio recordings, so it would be difficult to compare with Zwoferink, who btw only played BWV 668 ("Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit") on her discussed disc for Prestare.

I think Ewald Kooiman gets less mentioned than many others for various reasons:

- his first integral was only on LP.
- his 2nd integral was recorded for a small label (Coronata) and went OOP quite soon.
- his 3rd integral was suddenly interrupted by his untimely death.

He was/is still a household name in the Dutch organ world, a well-known name among baroque (keyboard) musicologists, but not a world famous organist like Walcha, Rogg, Alain, Rübsam or Koopman. Most of Kooiman's recordings were issued only by small (Dutch) recording companies.

He was born in 1938, 10 years later than Leonhardt, who was indeed in the HIP-py vanguard. During his study in the 60s Kooiman quickly became interested in the HIP approach to baroque organ music. He became very influental in the Dutch and German baroque world, also because of his publications. He has published a lot of unknown baroque organ music, f.i. with his collection called Incognita Organo.
His best known book, which he wrote with Gerhard Weinberger (organist of the CPO Bach organ integral), is probably Zur Interpretation Der Orgelmusik J.S. Bachs (On the interpretation of J.S. Bach's organ music).

And yes, I am enamored with Kooiman's Bach playing. I've been so lucky to get all volumes of his 2nd integral (Coronata), though some of them only with the help of the Dutch central library. I rate this integral very high. Maybe his playing isn't always 'perfect', but IMHO Kooiman plays in a very informed, thoughtful and lively way.

At first Kooiman was convinced that the French Silbermann organs weren't suited for Bach, but in the end of his life he changed his mind about that. It's a pity he died before completing this 3rd integral, but I still consider it worthwhile having. His pupils Ute Gremmel-Geuchen, Gerhard Gnann and Bernhard Klapprott, who completed the set, are very capable, too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bachxtehude on January 02, 2013, 11:59:51 AM
I really enjoy the Kooiman recordings I have.I was in the process of collecting his CD's on Coronata in the 90s...until they became unavailable here.I have up to volume 9,and another CD of his playing Bach,Buxtehude,and Lubeck on three historic organs.Volume 8 introduced me to the Holzhey organ in Weissenau.Really wish I had all the volumes like you,Marc.The new set that his pupils finished is on my wish-list. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on January 02, 2013, 04:17:28 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 02, 2013, 09:57:22 AM
First reactions to your post, which is not interrupting anything AFAIC.

I haven't heard the Otto and Astrionio recordings, so it would be difficult to compare with Zwoferink, who btw only played BWV 668 ("Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit") on her discussed disc for Prestare.

I think Ewald Kooiman gets less mentioned than many others for various reasons:

- his first integral was only on LP.
- his 2nd integral was recorded for a small label (Coronata) and went OOP quite soon.
- his 3rd integral was suddenly interrupted by his untimely death.

He was/is still a household name in the Dutch organ world, a well-known name among baroque (keyboard) musicologists, but not a world famous organist like Walcha, Rogg, Alain, Rübsam or Koopman. Most of Kooiman's recordings were issued only by small (Dutch) recording companies.

He was born in 1938, 10 years later than Leonhardt, who was indeed in the HIP-py vanguard. During his study in the 60s Kooiman quickly became interested in the HIP approach to baroque organ music. He became very influental in the Dutch and German baroque world, also because of his publications. He has published a lot of unknown baroque organ music, f.i. with his collection called Incognita Organo.
His best known book, which he wrote with Gerhard Weinberger (organist of the CPO Bach organ integral), is probably Zur Interpretation Der Orgelmusik J.S. Bachs (On the interpretation of J.S. Bach's organ music).

And yes, I am enamored with Kooiman's Bach playing. I've been so lucky to get all volumes of his 2nd integral (Coronata), though some of them only with the help of the Dutch central library. I rate this integral very high. Maybe his playing isn't always 'perfect', but IMHO Kooiman plays in a very informed, thoughtful and lively way.

At first Kooiman was convinced that the French Silbermann organs weren't suited for Bach, but in the end of his life he changed his mind about that. It's a pity he died before completing this 3rd integral, but I still consider it worthwhile having. His pupils Ute Gremmel-Geuchen, Gerhard Gnann and Bernhard Klapprott, who completed the set, are very capable, too.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I think I will make this purchase.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 08, 2013, 12:04:39 PM
Quote from: milk on January 02, 2013, 06:38:49 AM
Don't let me interrupt this very absorbing conversation. I've been comparing Leipzig chorale recordings: Astrionio, Rubsam, Walcha, Foccroulle, and Otto. I take it that when Otto is referred to as old fashioned, it is for different reasons than Zwoferink? Is it that Otto's playing is rather strict? That was my impression tonight.
Kooiman seems to get mentioned quite a bit here but not with the same glowing admiration as Walcha, Rubsam and Rogg. I'm tempted by Kooiman's complete set (Kooiman et al). So was Kooiman in the HIP vanguard then? Sorry if my questions are a  bit inane. So are some folks here enamored with Kooiman? I downloaded one Kooiman track (651) and love it. But his set isn't cheap. I have to say the Astrionio Leipzig CD has been a great time for me (for my jogging). I don't know, I always want more.

How did you enjoy the Rubsam?

I really love his registrations, and the way he creates this rapt warm inviting prayerful feeling, without getting too poe faced. Or at least, I don't think it's too reverential. Neither do I find him too sweet and smooth contoured.

It's become my favourite record of those chorales in a way, even though I just can't listen to it if I've been listening to anyone else playing the same music. He just sounds too turgid.

But if I listen to it with an open mind, as it were, I love what he does.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on January 08, 2013, 04:23:41 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 08, 2013, 12:04:39 PM
How did you enjoy the Rubsam?

I really love his registrations, and the way he creates this rapt warm inviting prayerful feeling, without getting too poe faced. Or at least, I don't think it's too reverential. Neither do I find him too sweet and smooth contoured.

It's become my favourite record of those chorales in a way, even though I just can't listen to it if I've been listening to anyone else playing the same music. He just sounds too turgid.

But if I listen to it with an open mind, as it were, I love what he does.
I enjoy it all very much. Walcha creates a kind of total world. And I like the contrast of Rubsam's pathos. I also really got into the Atsrionio - and not even so much for the chorus but for his convincing performances and for the sound of the instrument. I have to keep going back and comparing. I'm normally not able to describe well why I like what I like.
There was a long time when I couldn't listen to the organ at all. Now I can't stop. I wanted to introduce a friend of mine to the glory of Bach's organ works do I gave him the Saorgin organ book recording. He said it made him feel like he was at a funeral. Oh well.     
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 09, 2013, 12:54:51 AM
Quote from: milk on January 08, 2013, 04:23:41 PM
I enjoy it all very much. Walcha creates a kind of total world. And I like the contrast of Rubsam's pathos. I also really got into the Atsrionio - and not even so much for the chorus but for his convincing performances and for the sound of the instrument. I have to keep going back and comparing. I'm normally not able to describe well why I like what I like.
There was a long time when I couldn't listen to the organ at all. Now I can't stop. I wanted to introduce a friend of mine to the glory of Bach's organ works do I gave him the Saorgin organ book recording. He said it made him feel like he was at a funeral. Oh well.   

Funeral?

No problem.

Mit Fried' und Freud' ich fahr dahin.

:)

Seriously: I think I wouldn't start with too much chorales to invite someone to Bach's organ world.

Trio Sonatas or a Vivaldi concerto (like BWV 593) have the benefit of combining uplifting outer movements with meditative slow movements, and some of the shorter preludes (BWV 531, 533, 549 f.i.) offer a more Barock 'n' roll feeling to the unexperienced listeners, without lasting too long.

It enables them to appreciate the possibilities of the instrument, like in sound (wow, it's really a huge synthesizer!) or rhythm (wow, one can really dance to this music!) and to somehow detach the organ from the ecclesiastical/religious/funeral-like/whatever background.

Maybe, after that, it's a bit easier to confront them with those church songs and hymns.

Just a suggestion of course.
Musical appreciation works in mysterious ways.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on January 10, 2013, 03:51:17 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 09, 2013, 12:54:51 AM
Funeral?

No problem.

Mit Fried' und Freud' ich fahr dahin.

:)

Seriously: I think I wouldn't start with too much chorales to invite someone to Bach's organ world.

Trio Sonatas or a Vivaldi concerto (like BWV 593) have the benefit of combining uplifting outer movements with meditative slow movements, and some of the shorter preludes (BWV 531, 533, 549 f.i.) offer a more Barock 'n' roll feeling to the unexperienced listeners, without lasting too long.

It enables them to appreciate the possibilities of the instrument, like in sound (wow, it's really a huge synthesizer!) or rhythm (wow, one can really dance to this music!) and to somehow detach the organ from the ecclesiastical/religious/funeral-like/whatever background.

Maybe, after that, it's a bit easier to confront them with those church songs and hymns.

Just a suggestion of course.
Musical appreciation works in mysterious ways.
Yes, I was thinking something along those same lines. I don't know. The chorales really transport me. But maybe they're not a good introduction. I think I decided long ago to demolish all those mental associations. When I started on the harpsichord I had to contend with the memory of Lurch from the Addams family. But I soon obliterated the image.

Recently I've been paying attention to the instruments on the Foccroulle and Kooiman. I really love those Silbermann's on the Kooiman. I'm not sure what Foccroulle is playing but I definitely prefer the sound on the Kooiman. Unfortunately, much of my Kooiman download is marred by digital noises (for which I received a refund). It has really disappointed me since the Kooiman is not easy to find. Are there any other recommended HIP recordings made on Silbermanns (I have many of the Berlin classic series and some of the Weinberger recordings already). 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 10, 2013, 04:32:47 AM
Quote from: milk on January 10, 2013, 03:51:17 AM
Yes, I was thinking something along those same lines. I don't know. The chorales really transport me. But maybe they're not a good introduction. I think I decided long ago to demolish all those mental associations. When I started on the harpsichord I had to contend with the memory of Lurch from the Addams family. But I soon obliterated the image.


I assume you're talking about that release?

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/c0.0.403.403/p403x403/538503_568402796520716_1774528440_n.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Octave on January 10, 2013, 10:39:33 PM
I'm sorry to deviate from the present discussion a bit.  I am interested in Masaaki Suzuki's recording of J.S. Bach's CLAVIER-ÜBUNG III (the German Organ Mass) on Bis.  Though I have already received much assistance with Bach organ works at GMG, I am especially curious about great recordings of this work, especially if you dislike Suzuki's.  I've done a little searching but not found too much discussion of the piece; I suspect my searches are indequate.  There was very brief discussion of the Suzuki once, that I have seen.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QJi9aovGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Here is a long consideration by Donald Satz, from Bach-Cantatas:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-KlavierUbungIII-Suzuki.htm (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-KlavierUbungIII-Suzuki.htm)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 11, 2013, 02:07:04 AM
Quote from: Octave on January 10, 2013, 10:39:33 PM
I'm sorry to deviate from the present discussion a bit.  I am interested in Masaaki Suzuki's recording of J.S. Bach's CLAVIER-ÜBUNG III (the German Organ Mass) on Bis.  Though I have already received much assistance with Bach organ works at GMG, I am especially curious about great recordings of this work, especially if you dislike Suzuki's.  I've done a little searching but not found too much discussion of the piece; I suspect my searches are indequate.  There was very brief discussion of the Suzuki once, that I have seen.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QJi9aovGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Here is a long consideration by Donald Satz, from Bach-Cantatas:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-KlavierUbungIII-Suzuki.htm (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-KlavierUbungIII-Suzuki.htm)

I love Clavieruebung III - one of the finest Bach concert experiences in recent memory (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/03/organic-bach.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/03/organic-bach.html)) was of that work, and afterwards I went looking for yet more recordings than I already have and are part of the complete sets. Suzuki is one I don't have (and don't know, except through available Arkiv-samples (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=29880)), so my answer can't be that helpful to you... but in my search I found that I very much liked Ludwig Lusser (Gramola) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002TF9ENS/nectarandambr-20) whose tempi hit a good mix between propulsive and unhurried (obviously very much a personal impression... and as I listen right now, I actually think he could take it just a little less hurried and accentuate more clearly up front, but less ostentatious just in the following parts of the St.Anne Prelude... bit erratic). Certainly his tone is clear, full, with pleasant brilliance and brightness and I do like his subsequent voicing.

Kevin Bowyer (Nimbus) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000007NG4/goodmusicguide-20) hasn't the best reputation among intégrales, but I love his sumptuous, weighty Organ Mass and always have.

Hansjoerg Albrecht (Oehms) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0029MGNR6/goodmusicguide-20), whose Clavierbuchlein II I enjoyed tremendously (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/03/organic-bach.html), pulls all, or at least most, stops for the St.Anne and comes darn close to "just the way I like it". Broadly flowing, a wide sound -- not the most detailed, even where his touch becomes light and agile -- but seductive all along.  Like a few other recordings - Suzuki included - Albrecht has the appropriate chorales interspersed with the organ parts.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Octave on January 11, 2013, 02:38:29 AM
Extremely helpful response; my thanks.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on January 11, 2013, 05:15:53 AM
I've been listening to this all day.
I was particularly paying attention to 684 just now. It's one of my favorite compositions. Maybe for other people as well?
Weinberger seems to take this kind of quickly. Christoph Albrecht even more so (guess I'll have to check out the other Albrecht?). But, I seem to get more out of Albrecht. There's just more air - more lift-off. I think I'm beginning to understand why the Silbermann series is said to be old-fashioned in playing style though. Is it kind of brisk and straightforward Bach? Or am I hearing this wrong?
Mandryka asked what I thought of the Rubsam. For 684, Rubsam is ghostly.
It's like driving through fog on a dark night. There's a kind of trepidation about what's behind every bend. I enjoy how Rubsam
always surprises me with his take on things. I get a lot of emotions in the Rubsam: fear, sadness, resignation. But I always go back
to Walcha who first kind of turned me onto this music. I love the balance in his playing (why does it sound like he's playing the pedals where others aren't?). I guess I can't explain it well but there is something that completes me in the Walcha. It's calm and all of a piece? I feel like he creates this total world and he know exactly what he wants to say.
Another one I was focusing on was 671. However, old-fashioned or not, Albrecht on the Silbermann recording impressed me much more than Weinberger (and others as well - although I don't have the concentration to go at many recordings fairly in one sitting). I swear I thought I could almost lose my mind listening to this. I keep wondering what people thought hearing a piece like this in a Church during Bach's time. Did they break down in tears? Fall to their knees? I feel like the tremendum opens up before me. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 11, 2013, 05:49:06 AM
Quote from: milk on January 11, 2013, 05:15:53 AM
For 684, Rubsam is ghostly.
It's like driving through fog on a dark night.

I keep wondering what people thought hearing a piece like this in a Church during Bach's time. Did they break down in tears? Fall to their knees? I feel like the tremendum opens up before me.

Naxos or Philips?

I know I cried, the last time I heard Clavieruebung, slightly abbreviated, live. Something about being grateful... but also being reduced to helpless awe before such unassuming greatness.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on January 11, 2013, 05:59:06 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 11, 2013, 05:49:06 AM
Naxos or Philips?

I know I cried, the last time I heard Clavieruebung, slightly abbreviated, live. Something about being grateful... but also being reduced to helpless awe before such unassuming greatness.

I have the Naxos. Sometimes I can't believe I can have such a reaction to something. I was on the train listening to 671 tonight. It felt like the world was falling apart.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 11, 2013, 06:32:08 AM
Quote from: Octave on January 10, 2013, 10:39:33 PM
I'm sorry to deviate from the present discussion a bit.  I am interested in Masaaki Suzuki's recording of J.S. Bach's CLAVIER-ÜBUNG III (the German Organ Mass) on Bis.  Though I have already received much assistance with Bach organ works at GMG, I am especially curious about great recordings of this work, especially if you dislike Suzuki's.  I've done a little searching but not found too much discussion of the piece; I suspect my searches are indequate.  There was very brief discussion of the Suzuki once, that I have seen.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QJi9aovGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Here is a long consideration by Donald Satz, from Bach-Cantatas:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-KlavierUbungIII-Suzuki.htm (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-KlavierUbungIII-Suzuki.htm)

Clavier-Übung 3?
Among my eternal Bach favourites.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14207.msg350928.html#msg350928

Suzuki?
IMO: OK, but nothing special, both his playing and the chosen instrument are a bit too shallow for my taste.

Favourite CU 3 recording pour moi?
Impossible to say. But I know I like these three performances very very much: Edgar Krapp (Berlin Classics), Ewald Kooiman (Coronata), Wim van Beek (Helior).
Great live experience: last August in Noordbroek, Leonore Lub playing BWV 552 and the pedaliter chorales on the Schnitger organ, with chorales sung in between.

Quote from: milk on January 11, 2013, 05:59:06 AM
[....] I was on the train listening to 671 tonight. It felt like the world was falling apart.

BWV 671?
Nothing less but amazing, the final bars are truly breathtaking.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Octave on January 11, 2013, 07:18:01 AM
Thank you for those tips, Marc.

milk, your writing about your response to the CLAVIER-ÜBUNG III (Rubsam in particular?) is beautiful and unassuming.  I want to experience music this way. 

These threads are hard on my old habits, because I'd purchased the first Walcha organ set just an hour before reading some of these posts; now I'm already poised to accumulate some of the Rubsam.  GMG is dreadful!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on January 11, 2013, 08:26:24 AM
Quote from: Octave on January 10, 2013, 10:39:33 PM
I'm sorry to deviate from the present discussion a bit.  I am interested in Masaaki Suzuki's recording of J.S. Bach's CLAVIER-ÜBUNG III (the German Organ Mass) on Bis.  Though I have already received much assistance with Bach organ works at GMG, I am especially curious about great recordings of this work, especially if you dislike Suzuki's.  I've done a little searching but not found too much discussion of the piece; I suspect my searches are indequate.  There was very brief discussion of the Suzuki once, that I have seen.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QJi9aovGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Here is a long consideration by Donald Satz, from Bach-Cantatas:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-KlavierUbungIII-Suzuki.htm (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-KlavierUbungIII-Suzuki.htm)

I well remember my extreme disappointment with Suzuki's Part 2.  Still, Part 1 was for me a mind-bending listening experience I'll always treasure.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2013, 08:45:51 AM
Suzuki is rarely, if ever, warm and peaceful, comfortable. His God here is hard and tough. Even when he cracks a smile, it's not a loving warm friendly smile (in 675/676 for example) Nether is there often a feeling of rapt meditative quiet mystical enlightenment/

I spent a lot of time with CU 3 last year -- the one that impressed me most and longest was Walcha's 1947 recording.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2013, 08:59:24 AM
I've been totally fascinated these past few days by the Leipzig Chorale BWV 656, O Lamm Gottes, played here by Koopman on an extraordinary colourful organ. Slow, stately, regal, wild at the end. More like this please -- either more of this organ or more of Koopman at this level. It's on spotify -- which is how I found it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4196W0HV62L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 11, 2013, 12:41:21 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2013, 08:59:24 AM
I've been totally fascinated these past few days by the Leipzig Chorale BWV 656, O Lamm Gottes, played here by Koopman on an extraordinary colourful organ. Slow, stately, regal, wild at the end. More like this please -- either more of this organ or more of Koopman at this level. It's on spotify -- which is how I found it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4196W0HV62L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Koopman's entire Novalis series was reissued by Brilliant:

[asin]B001MXU9F0[/asin]

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on January 11, 2013, 01:48:48 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2013, 08:45:51 AM
Suzuki is rarely, if ever, warm and peaceful, comfortable. His God here is hard and tough.

Pretty much on target, and the organ is a great instrument for a hard and tough personality ( and many other personalities also).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Octave on January 11, 2013, 08:20:18 PM
Thanks Sammy, Marc, and Mandryka for replies and input.  I have quite a bit of work to do here.  I wonder about this:

[re: Sukuki]
Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2013, 08:45:51 AM
Nether is there often a feeling of rapt meditative quiet mystical enlightenment/

Do people speak of Suzuki's Bach in these terms especially often?  Are you making reference to terms of praise that you've heard?  Is it common to praise Suzuki in terms of "quiet mystical enlightenment"?   I have not seen this, though I also do not follow the classical music press at all.  I have seen him both praised and deprecated in terms that seem suspiciously attuned to his ethnicity and cultural background.  On more than a few occasions, even in my scant passing experience, I've heard Suzuki's defenders/admirers invoke his personal Lutheranism as some badge of authenticity.  I wonder if this is the "blowback" of what is called "identity politics" in the United States.  It seems bogus.  I can't remember the last time I heard "enlightenment" attributed to Bach's music as played by Occidental hands.  I suppose there are a host of "Teutonic" adjectives used as terms of praise; that has made me feel a little funny, but since it compromises pretensions of universality and roots the music in empirical study, I've felt better about that.  "Oriental" musicians praised (or derided) in terms derived from California hippies....that doesn't seem empirical.

Thanks much for the mention of that Ton Koopman collection from Brilliant.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2013, 10:03:22 PM
Quote from: Octave on January 11, 2013, 08:20:18 PM
Thanks Sammy, Marc, and Mandryka for replies and input.  I have quite a bit of work to do here.  I wonder about this:

[re: Sukuki]
Do people speak of Suzuki's Bach in these terms especially often?  Are you making reference to terms of praise that you've heard?  Is it common to praise Suzuki in terms of "quiet mystical enlightenment"?   I have not seen this, though I also do not follow the classical music press at all.  I have seen him both praised and deprecated in terms that seem suspiciously attuned to his ethnicity and cultural background.  On more than a few occasions, even in my scant passing experience, I've heard Suzuki's defenders/admirers invoke his personal Lutheranism as some badge of authenticity.  I wonder if this is the "blowback" of what is called "identity politics" in the United States.  It seems bogus.  I can't remember the last time I heard "enlightenment" attributed to Bach's music as played by Occidental hands.  I suppose there are a host of "Teutonic" adjectives used as terms of praise; that has made me feel a little funny, but since it compromises pretensions of universality and roots the music in empirical study, I've felt better about that.  "Oriental" musicians praised (or derided) in terms derived from California hippies....that doesn't seem empirical.

Thanks much for the mention of that Ton Koopman collection from Brilliant.

When you get the Rubsam Naxos CU 3, see what you think of the way he plays 678 for example. Sometimes with him, because of the introspectiveness and the "mystical" registrations ( sorry, can't think of a better word), I imagine that he's painting an image of God as offering enlightenment. Also Gerhard  Weinberger's amazing, astonishing record of it, where he seems to make time stand still.

By the way I wasn't praising or dissing Suzuki's cu3. I think what he does is interesting. Or rather, it's interesting to think about why he does what he does.

It's intersting how they use the music to express philosophical ideas.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Octave on January 11, 2013, 11:38:47 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 11, 2013, 10:03:22 PM
When you get the Rubsam Naxos CU 3, see what you think of the way he plays 678 for example. Sometimes with him, because of the introspectiveness and the "mystical" registrations ( sorry, can't think of a better word), I imagine that he's painting an image of God as offering enlightenment. Also Gerhard  Weinberger's amazing, astonishing record of it, where he seems to make time stand still.

By the way I wasn't praising or dissing Suzuki's cu3. I think what he does is interesting. Or rather, it's interesting to think about why he does what he does.

It's intersting how they use the music to express philosophical ideas.

Thanks for the clarification; I think I was mainly curious if you were laterally referring to the same kind of sentiment that was at play in one online person's dismissal of Suzuki's music [in this case, he happened to be a detractor, which is only semi-relevant] as, and I quote, "anime Bach".  If that's not exactly offensive, it is still a strange thing to say.  Since this comment, I have run into much less overtly strange comments that are unsettlingly similar.

Is the Gerhard Weinberger CU3 you mention all contained on Vol. 13 of his CPO series, or is it some other recording entirely?  Why does it only require one disc for him to play these piece, if in fact this is the case?  (I'm sorry, I have yet to actually read up on how the piece is structured.)  I was assuming that all of the CU3 that Weinberger plays is on disc 13 because of Que's comments below and Dominy Clements' review (linked below that).

It's funny, I ran across a post of Que's which seems to be largely in agreement with some of you about the Suzuki, but disappointed with the Weinberger; the Dominy Clements review from Musicweb, in its comments on disc 13, actually acknowledges Que's response while concurring with Mandryka.

Quote from: Que on June 17, 2007, 02:49:02 AM

[...] First, I got volumes 9-16 of Weinberger's cycle on cpo.
I'm very satisfied with it: good, honest and pointed playing - straight forward with no frills. I like that.
I found volume 13 with Clavier Übung less satisfactory in comparison with the rest.

Listening to these recordings confirmed the importance to me of the use of period organs - they all sound beautiful, some drop dead gorgeous! If this cycle is issued as a boxed set, I will most certainly get it! :)

My other purchase was the Clavier Übung III with Suzuki (BIS).
This recording simply doesn't do it for me. Suzuki's playing is very flowing and that I liked. But in the end I find it all too abstract and detached, and too smooth - he plays a lot legato. Same goes for the choral intermissions: it all sounds very ethereal, but I don't hear the (spiritual) message - I like that concept of very much though! (Believe Koopman did the same on Teldec?)
Finally, the impression of smoothness is enhanced by the modern organ, which lacks IMO character and "grit".

Of the very little number of recordings I know, my favourite recording of Clavier Übung III remains Kay Johannsen (Hänssler).

and that Dominy Clements review of the whole Weinberger set (scroll down for his disc-by-disc report):
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Mar09/Bach_organ_7773632.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Mar09/Bach_organ_7773632.htm)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 12, 2013, 12:08:15 AM
It might be helpful to mention that in the end I was completely turned of by Weinberger's set: a frustrating experience, offering historically correct approaches on wonderfull organs, but in the end Weinberger falls short on consistency, expressiveness and plain lack of personality. Too academic, too deliberate. 

Currently I'm totally enamored by Koopman's Teldec cycle (not depriciating his superb Novalis rec) and highly appreciate Vernet's (Ligia). :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2013, 12:28:56 AM
Quote from: Que on January 12, 2013, 12:08:15 AM
I was completely turned off by Weinberger's set: a frustrating experience, offering historically correct approaches on wonderful organs, but in the end Weinberger falls short on consistency, expressiveness and plain lack of personality. Too academic, too deliberate. 

Currently I'm totally enamored by Koopman's Teldec cycle (not depreciating his superb Novalis rec) and highly appreciate Vernet's (Ligia). :)


I agree with all, except that I don't think highly of Koopman's Novalis cycle which I have no qualms deprecating. :-)

That's not to say that Weinberger hasn't highlights to offer... and when he hits his academic groove, it sure feels right. He's a bit of a latter-day Stockmeier. But mostly that set is attractive for its completeness.

Listening to the CÜ-III right now... this time with Christoph Albrecht (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000AG5O/goodmusicguide-20) on the Silbermann Organ set (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000TGF1G8/goodmusicguide-20) which I find quite wonderful. Dignity (or gravitas? No... not quite the latter) and unhurried, despite brisk tempos that pull you right through the St. Anne. (The set is still a ridiculous bargain from Amazon.de, at €24 (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000TGF1G8/goodmusicguide-21).)

Speaking of the Silbermann Organ cycle: Aside factoid: The niece of Herbert Collum was my landlord, at one point.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2013, 11:06:28 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2013, 12:28:56 AM
I agree with all, except that I don't think highly of Koopman's Novalis cycle which I have no qualms deprecating. :-)
[....]

With me, Koopman is a hit or a miss. He can be very convincing, especially in chorale pieces, despite his preferences for a profusion of ornamentations.
I understand f.i. Mandryka's enthousiasm for BWV 656 (Novalis). Koopman has got an image of choosing (too) fast tempi, but this is certainly not always the case, as he's proving in this particular piece.

Btw, about the organ, here's a clip from 2008 with Ewald Kooiman giving a masterclass on the 4-manual Trinity organ built by Karl Joseph Riepp. (Sound quality not very good though.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhQt-iVI9ag
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2013, 11:15:43 AM
Oh, and adding this, for what it's worth: I agree with Que's positive opinion about Kay Johannsen's CU 3 (Hänssler) and with Jens' (hidden) advice to get the good ole Gottfried Silbermann cycle, especially when it's priced like that. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 12, 2013, 12:18:24 PM
Yes it's really only that Leipzig chorale that I'm enthusiastic about from Koopman. I haven't heard all 6 CDs but just picking stuff randomly hasn't come up with anything as striking as that chorale. (There's a Trio sonata, BWV 527, there which I keep listening too. I don't much care for the sound of the organ (or maybe it's the recording, or my lack of subwoofer.)  But the performance is interesting because it's not just fast and exuberant in the first movement. Still, I'm not as taken by it as the chorale)

As far as Weinberger is concerned, I think Que is right to say things aren't consistent there, even just in CU3 there are some lows and highs.

By the way someone's  offered to sell me 8 Kooiman CDs for about £10 each -- his first set not the SACDs -- including CU 3 and the Trio Sonatas. Should I buy them -- I mean, what should I do . . . ?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2013, 12:48:05 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 12, 2013, 12:18:24 PM
Yes it's really only that Leipzig chorale that I'm enthusiastic about from Koopman. I haven't heard all 6 CDs but just picking stuff randomly hasn't come up with anything as striking as that chorale. (There's a Trio sonata, BWV 527, there which I keep listening too. I don't much care for the sound of the organ (or maybe it's the recording, or my lack of subwoofer.)  But the performance is interesting because it's not just fast and exuberant in the first movement. Still, I'm not as taken by it as the chorale)

In general, I find Koopman's manner of playing very suitable for the Trio Sonatas. His first recording (DG) is also worthwhile having.

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Trio-Sonatas/dp/B0000057F4/

Quote from: Mandryka
[....]
By the way someone ha offered to sell me 8 Kooiman CDs for about £10 each -- his first set not the SACDs -- including CU 3 and the Trio Sonatas. Should I buy them -- I mean, what should I do . . . ?

Well, they're OOP. And about 2 years ago I was offered € 100,-- myself to sell Kooiman's CU3, but I had to tell the wanna-be-buyer that I did not have the original issue, only a burned copy.
Both Ewald Kooiman's and Bram Beekman's CU3 (Lindenberg) are extremely difficult to grab, even in NL.

In the end, it's really just a matter of how much you would want those discs.
I think Kooiman's Bach is very impressive, and I know that Premont rates him high, too.
But we've experienced before that our tastes can differ .... 0:)

I would like to add this interesting 'bonus' though: the Trio Sonates were recorded on the Jan Harmensz Kamp organ (1716) of the Grote Kerk in Meppel (NL), which was completed and enlarged by Franz Caspar Schnitger (1721/1722). It's a beautiful instrument and alas rarely used for recordings.

Here's a small example, Kooiman playing the Fantasia in C-minor BWV 1121 (formerly known as Anhang II 45) on this Kamp/Schnitger organ:

http://www.mediafire.com/?o02n4e0v7d7uyw9
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 12, 2013, 01:52:48 PM
Quote from: Que on January 12, 2013, 12:08:15 AM
It might be helpful to mention that in the end I was completely turned of by Weinberger's set: a frustrating experience, offering historically correct approaches on wonderfull organs, but in the end Weinberger falls short on consistency, expressiveness and plain lack of personality. Too academic, too deliberate. 

Currently I'm totally enamored by Koopman's Teldec cycle (not depriciating his superb Novalis rec) and highly appreciate Vernet's (Ligia). :)

Q

I found the tempos by Weinberger on a number of CD's in the set a tad too slow for me.  Like you said, he falls short on consistency.  I like the Koopman's set much better and still have the third cycle by Marie-Claire Alain in shrinkwrap ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 13, 2013, 02:22:55 AM
Thanks for posting the Kooiman Marc. I'll listen today.

You know, one thing I find really inspiring about organ is that the musicians are like artisans. Some of the best music making happens from people who've recorded very little, often on obscure specialist labels.

Having said that I've made no progress getting any records by Zwoferink. No response at all from her distribution people. Same story for Wageningen.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on January 13, 2013, 02:47:53 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2013, 12:28:56 AM
Listening to the CÜ-III right now... this time with Christoph Albrecht (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000AG5O/goodmusicguide-20) on the Silbermann Organ set (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000TGF1G8/goodmusicguide-20) which I find quite wonderful. Dignity (or gravitas? No... not quite the latter) and unhurried, despite brisk tempos that pull you right through the St. Anne. (The set is still a ridiculous bargain from Amazon.de, at €24 (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000TGF1G8/goodmusicguide-21).)

Speaking of the Silbermann Organ cycle: Aside factoid: The niece of Herbert Collum was my landlord, at one point.
I'm really enamored of these recordings. I put Otto and Albrecht together to make an almost-complete Ubung iii - although it would seem that the Silbermann set doesn't anywhere contain the four duets? I wonder why not.   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 19, 2013, 09:58:39 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 01, 2013, 12:50:58 PM
Having read this statement a bit closer I am surprised, that a well-educated Dutch organist can say this nonsense. The so called Dutch practice is not to play all notes unbound, but to group the notes in small unities or "cell´s", which can be played non-legato or strictly legato as well.  F.i. : in a group of three short notes played legato the first will seem to receive a small accent, even if this actually is impossible to do on an organ. But it feels so, it happens in our mind.  The "trick" is to be able to indicate the rhythm and distinguish between good and less good notes in this way. The first note under the bow also often receives a small agogoc accent (it is held a nanosec. too long) in order to support the impression of good note when wanted. The playing of Gustav Leonhardt among several others offers examples in abundance of this practice. Can Zwoferink be unaware of this? No, she can´t, and this is the reason why one has got to read her words with some reservation.

Sometimes I think I hear one trait the "Dutch" way of playing in the early Bach records from Walcha, like in the 1947 CU3, at least to this extent: he sometimes breaks up the music into  more or less small speech like cells, with relatively few notes in the same bow-stroke, to use your metaphor . And I also think sometimes that in the stereo recordings he articulates the music into longer lines, more notes under the same stroke of the bow. I'm not sure about this! Has anyone published anything interesting about his development between 1947 and 1970?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 23, 2013, 09:28:52 AM
http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/articles/biographies/walcha_helmut.shtml

The link leads to an three unpublished live Walcha recordings, including him playing his own transcription of the Ricercar a 6, a performance from the 1970s. As far as I know it's the only record of him playing this.

There's also an early recording of him playing a Handel organ  concerto with his teacher Gunter Ramin. They play well together, kindred spirits. Really atrocious sound.

And there's  a record of Bwv 548, faster than his 1952 record I think.  I listen most to  his 1960s record of this so I haven't given it much attention. Generally I'm finding myself drawn to the later recordings more and more in fact.

Now I'd like to find a record of him playing Vivaldi/Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 23, 2013, 12:15:32 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 19, 2013, 09:58:39 AM
Sometimes I think I hear one trait the "Dutch" way of playing in the early Bach records from Walcha [....]

Quote from: Mandryka on January 23, 2013, 09:28:52 AM
http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/articles/biographies/walcha_helmut.shtml

The link leads to an three unpublished live Walcha recordings, including him playing his own transcription of the Ricercar a 6, a performance from the 1970s. As far as I know it's the only record of him playing this.

There's also an early recording of him playing a Handel organ  concerto with his teacher Gunter Ramin. They play well together, kindred spirits. Really atrocious sound.

And there's  a record of Bwv 548, faster than his 1952 record I think.  I listen most to  his 1960s record of this so I haven't given it much attention. Generally I'm finding myself drawn to the later recordings more and more in fact.

Now I'd like to find a record of him playing Vivaldi/Bach.

Have to say it's been quite a while since I last listened to Walcha, but I recall that I preferred his earlier mono performances, but at the same time his later stereo recordings. ;)

Don't get me wrong though: I think the mono boxset is of good sound quality!
And my preferences for these performances are of course caused by the fact that I am Dutch. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 24, 2013, 08:42:33 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 23, 2013, 12:15:32 PM
Have to say it's been quite a while since I last listened to Walcha, but I recall that I preferred his earlier mono performances, but at the same time his later stereo recordings. ;)

Don't get me wrong though: I think the mono boxset is of good sound quality!
And my preferences for these performances are of course caused by the fact that I am Dutch. ;D

The first recordings are more striking in terms of registration, the stereo  more subtle. There's something which has really gotten under my skin in some of the stereo records, in 548 for example, and 543 too. (I like what Zwofferink does with 543 too, her CD finally came from her distributors, who sent it prior to payment. I'll just put the cash in the post)

I'm listening to a lot of Walcha right now, organ and harpsichord (especially the Chromatic Fantasy and fugue), Bach and Sweelinck (just one piece, but it's an interesting performance) Bach can take being played Walcha style, and the energetic intensity is fun.  And personally I don't find Walcha too buttoned up to make something fun to hear out of stylus fantasticus music.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 02, 2013, 10:11:55 PM
Anton Heiller's Orgelbuchlein and Leipzig Chorales have been transfered and are available from here

http://klassichaus.us/Organ-Keyboard.php

I've only listened to the energetic and jollly and uplifting Orgelbuchlein so far. This is basically a  celebration of God. The sound is very good.

I first got to know this organist through a wonderful Ermitage CD. He really has a face, a character, without being obviously quirky.The Vanguard CD is one of my most played Bach compilation CDs
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 03, 2013, 03:34:17 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 02, 2013, 10:11:55 PM
Anton Heiller's Orgelbuchlein and Leipzig Chorales have been transfered and are available from here

http://klassichaus.us/Organ-Keyboard.php

I've only listened to the energetic and jollly and uplifting Orgelbuchlein so far. This is basically a  celebration of God. The sound is very good.

I first got to know this organist through a wonderful Ermitage CD. He really has a face, a character, without being obviously quirky.The Vanguard CD is one of my most played Bach compilation CDs

Good!
I must admit that I prefer Heiller to Walcha and Kraft (to mention two other famous golden oldies).
I have Heiller's Orgelbüchlein, too, I love it, and I probably forgot to mention it when you asked for some recommendations last autumn .... or did I?

The same recommendation goes for the Leipzig Chorales, so 'your' link should be visited by many Bach organ freaks .... just my tuppence worth of course.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on February 10, 2013, 04:10:01 AM
I'm just skimming through the booklets on the Kooiman integral. But I don't see any answer to this question: Some people on the net
seem to say that Bach wasn't a fan of the Silbermanns. I am so taken with them. I just love them on the Kooiman and the Berlin sets. But I'm wondering what the rational is for playing on them. I'm also reading Christoph Wolff's Bach biography. But I haven't gotten far into it yet. Perhaps the answer will be there. Did Bach play often on Silbermann's? Did he dislike them? I see that Bach played at the dedication of a Silbermann in Dresden. I read somewhere that Kooiman didn't initially think they were appropriate but then changed his mind later in his life. I'm curious if anyone has anything to say on this subject. They are so distinctive sounding. I wonder if anyone can explain about this without being too technical. In the Kooiman booklet, there is no explanation of the rational for the series - as far as I can find. Are there any other organs that have qualities similar to the Silbermanns? I can't even say what it is exactly that I like about these instruments. There's a sweetness to them I guess...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 10, 2013, 06:39:00 AM
Quote from: milk on February 10, 2013, 04:10:01 AM
I'm just skimming through the booklets on the Kooiman integral. But I don't see any answer to this question: Some people on the net
seem to say that Bach wasn't a fan of the Silbermanns. I am so taken with them. I just love them on the Kooiman and the Berlin sets. But I'm wondering what the rational is for playing on them. I'm also reading Christoph Wolff's Bach biography. But I haven't gotten far into it yet. Perhaps the answer will be there. Did Bach play often on Silbermann's? Did he dislike them? I see that Bach played at the dedication of a Silbermann in Dresden. I read somewhere that Kooiman didn't initially think they were appropriate but then changed his mind later in his life. I'm curious if anyone has anything to say on this subject. They are so distinctive sounding. I wonder if anyone can explain about this without being too technical. In the Kooiman booklet, there is no explanation of the rational for the series - as far as I can find. Are there any other organs that have qualities similar to the Silbermanns? I can't even say what it is exactly that I like about these instruments. There's a sweetness to them I guess...

You have to distinguish between the two Silbermann brothers, Gottfried and Andreas.

Gottfried Silbermann´s organs are very much cast in Middle-German baroque style and according to some well suited for the execution of Bach´s later organ works - along with organs by Trost and Hildebrandt. For Bach´s more youthful works composed at a time when he was stylistically influenced by Buxtehude and Reincken among others, the North-German organ type of Arp Schnitger may be better suited.

Andreas Silbermann and his son Johan Andreas Silberman built organs very much in French baroque organ style, and this is a kind of sound ideal, which may be more questionable in relation to Bach´s organ works. The organs have got a spendid sound, and I do not think Bach would have minded his works played on them. It is just that the Schnitger and Gottfried Silbermann organs sound more idiomatic.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 10, 2013, 06:51:48 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 02, 2013, 10:11:55 PM
Anton Heiller's Orgelbuchlein and Leipzig Chorales have been transfered and are available from here

http://klassichaus.us/Organ-Keyboard.php

I've only listened to the energetic and jollly and uplifting Orgelbuchlein so far. This is basically a  celebration of God. The sound is very good.

I first got to know this organist through a wonderful Ermitage CD. He really has a face, a character, without being obviously quirky.The Vanguard CD is one of my most played Bach compilation CDs

I have his Vanguard recording in the SACD format ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61KFBMT4ZKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 10, 2013, 06:53:46 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 03, 2013, 03:34:17 AM
Good!
I must admit that I prefer Heiller to Walcha and Kraft (to mention two other famous golden oldies).
I have Heiller's Orgelbüchlein, too, I love it, and I probably forgot to mention it when you asked for some recommendations last autumn .... or did I?

The same recommendation goes for the Leipzig Chorales, so 'your' link should be visited by many Bach organ freaks .... just my tuppence worth of course.

I like Walcha, though somewhat iffy with Kraft based on what I heard on his Buxtehude set on Vox ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on February 10, 2013, 07:45:16 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 10, 2013, 06:39:00 AM
You have to distinguish between the two Silbermann brothers, Gottfried and Andreas.

Gottfried Silbermann´s organs are very much cast in Middle-German baroque style and according to some well suited for the execution of Bach´s later organ works - along with organs by Trost and Hildebrandt. For Bach´s more youthful works composed at a time when he was stylistically influenced by Buxtehude and Reincken among others, the North-German organ type of Arp Schnitger may be better suited.

Andreas Silbermann and his son Johan Andreas Silberman built organs very much in French baroque organ style, and this is a kind of sound ideal, which may be more questionable in relation to Bach´s organ works. The organs have got a spendid sound, and I do not think Bach would have minded his works played on them. It is just that the Schnitger and Gottfried Silbermann organs sound more idiomatic.
Interesting. Thanks. Looks like the Kooiman set uses A and JA organs exclusively while the Berlin series uses Gottfried organs. I think the Gottfried ones impress me more - although the playing is not HIP and I've heard it said that the organs were unrestored at the time of these recordings. I'm interested in this issue of playing style as well, as I enjoy comparing recordings. I love the Berlin series, although the playing seems more straightforward and, perhaps, more focused on beauty (I was just comparing 664 today). Rogg also used a JA organ, while Bernard Foccroulle makes use of Gottfried organs on several CDs in his integral. 
So, it's the Gottfried organs that have that Silvery sound...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on February 10, 2013, 07:57:38 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 10, 2013, 06:39:00 AM
You have to distinguish between the two Silbermann brothers, Gottfried and Andreas.

Gottfried Silbermann´s organs are very much cast in Middle-German baroque style and according to some well suited for the execution of Bach´s later organ works - along with organs by Trost and Hildebrandt. For Bach´s more youthful works composed at a time when he was stylistically influenced by Buxtehude and Reincken among others, the North-German organ type of Arp Schnitger may be better suited.

Andreas Silbermann and his son Johan Andreas Silberman built organs very much in French baroque organ style, and this is a kind of sound ideal, which may be more questionable in relation to Bach´s organ works. The organs have got a spendid sound, and I do not think Bach would have minded his works played on them. It is just that the Schnitger and Gottfried Silbermann organs sound more idiomatic.

Excellent summary of the situation of the historic organs more suitable to Bach, in just five lines.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 10, 2013, 10:24:35 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 10, 2013, 06:53:46 AM
I like Walcha, though somewhat iffy with Kraft based on what I heard on his Buxtehude set on Vox ...

Well what a carry on ! I rather like Kraft's Buxtehude -- he's so charming and warm and humane how could anyone not like what he does? I know the Bach less well. And I adore, adore, Walcha's final Orgelbuchlein. But I can't explain why. (Did he make three records of it?)

While I'm here, I'm going to plug Rubsam's Naxos Leipzig Chorales, which are just wonderful -- my favourite of all his Bach organ records I think. But like so many of these special recordings, you have to take them for what they are, you've got to be willing to enter into their world.  As soon as I engage in comparative listening the magic goes away. Funny that.

Oh and that book on Walcha that I mentioned here a few weeks ago is well worth reading, even though, as premont said, it's a bit short on discussion of his ideas. It's so naively written, by people who obviously just loved the man and his music making, it's just a joy to be with from first page to last. The sort of child like love the author seems to have for Walcha makes the hagiographical tendency very endearing for me.  And it's in French -- which makes it even better of course.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 10, 2013, 12:04:10 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on February 10, 2013, 06:53:46 AM
I like Walcha, though somewhat iffy with Kraft based on what I heard on his Buxtehude set on Vox ...

Well, maybe Walcha and Heiller are more consistent than Kraft, but I think that Kraft can be quite exciting and convincing.

Quote from: milk on February 10, 2013, 07:45:16 AM
[....]
So, it's the Gottfried organs that have that Silvery sound...

Yeah, compared to the 'French' Silbermanns, I agree.
Still, IMO, 'Gottfried' sounds more 'granular' than the Schnitgers.

The more south you go, the more bronze those baroque organs seem to sound.
I particularly love the reed stops of the more southern organs, how they growl and grumble.

But in the end I (slightly) prefer the clarity of the northern baroque organ-type, like the Schnitgers and other examples of Northern German and Dutch instruments.

Here's the famous/notorious Toccata con Fuga ex d-moll BWV 565, played by Bernard Foccroulle, on the Dutch baroque organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam, built in 1655 by Hans Wolf Schonat and expanded some years later by Roelof Barentsz Duyschot and Jacobus Galtusz van Hagerbeer:

http://www.youtube.com/v/PeKMsCIZ2rQ
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on February 10, 2013, 03:53:49 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 10, 2013, 12:04:10 PM
Well, maybe Walcha and Heiller are more consistent than Kraft, but I think that Kraft can be quite exciting and convincing.

Yeah, compared to the 'French' Silbermanns, I agree.
Still, IMO, 'Gottfried' sounds more 'granular' than the Schnitgers.

The more south you go, the more bronze those baroque organs seem to sound.
I particularly love the reed stops of the more southern organs, how they growl and grumble.

But in the end I (slightly) prefer the clarity of the northern baroque organ-type, like the Schnitgers and other examples of Northern German and Dutch instruments.

Here's the famous/notorious Toccata con Fuga ex d-moll BWV 565, played by Bernard Foccroulle, on the Dutch baroque organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam, built in 1655 by Hans Wolf Schonat and expanded some years later by Roelof Barentsz Duyschot and Jacobus Galtusz van Hagerbeer:

Thanks for more clarification. Well, I'm making it a point to pay attention to the Schnitgers on the Foccroulle recordings today. This 565 is stirring!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Octave on February 10, 2013, 04:25:41 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 10, 2013, 10:24:35 AM
And I adore, adore, Walcha's final Orgelbuchlein. But I can't explain why. (Did he make three records of it?)

Just to make sure, that's the ORGELBUCHLEIN included in the "Walcha II" (Archiv) set, non?  I did some rooting in the bach-cantatas.com Walcha discog not long ago, but I do not remember a later recording of the piece that the one in that cycle/box.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 11, 2013, 02:07:27 AM
Quote from: milk on February 10, 2013, 03:53:49 PM
Thanks for more clarification. Well, I'm making it a point to pay attention to the Schnitgers on the Foccroulle recordings today. This 565 is stirring!

Yes, I agree, but it's 'another' 565 that's available on the market right now (Schnitger et al, Martinikerk, Groningen, NL, recorded in 2008).
The YouTube clip provides a performance from Foccroulle's 'younger days' (1984) and only a few of them survived in the integral boxset (BWV 730, 731 and 592).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on February 11, 2013, 06:11:51 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 11, 2013, 02:07:27 AM
Yes, I agree, but it's 'another' 565 that's available on the market right now (Schnitger et al, Martinikerk, Groningen, NL, recorded in 2008).
The YouTube clip provides a performance from Foccroulle's 'younger days' (1984) and only a few of them survived in the integral boxset (BWV 730, 731 and 592).
Ah I didn't realize that. I've been listening to the integral today. He plays BWV 564 on the Schnitger (Toccata, Adagio and Fugue). This is one of my favorite pieces. The Schnitger certainly gets the job done! It's a warm instrument with a lot of presence and Foccroulle gives a joyous performance on the fugue.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 11, 2013, 09:09:23 AM
Quote from: Octave on February 10, 2013, 04:25:41 PM
Just to make sure, that's the ORGELBUCHLEIN included in the "Walcha II" (Archiv) set, non?  I did some rooting in the bach-cantatas.com Walcha discog not long ago, but I do not remember a later recording of the piece that the one in that cycle/box.

I have this vague memory of seeing three Orgelbuchlein recordings mentioned  in Youngrock Lee's discography, but unfortunately the page seems to be down at the moment

But anyway the one I find really fascinating is the final one on Archiv. I've not fully understood what exactly he's doing to make me prefer  it to the other very early record I have, which is certainly more colourful registration-wise, and maybe slightly more energetic. And anyway maybe it's not really grounded in anything interesting or objective. I'll try to listen again to soon and understand a bit better.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 12, 2013, 02:28:05 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 11, 2013, 09:09:23 AM
I have this vague memory of seeing three Orgelbuchlein recordings mentioned  in Youngrock Lee's discography, but unfortunately the page seems to be down at the moment

But anyway the one I find really fascinating is the final one on Archiv. I've not fully understood what exactly he's doing to make me prefer  it to the other very early record I have, which is certainly more colourful registration-wise, and maybe slightly more energetic. And anyway maybe it's not really grounded in anything interesting or objective. I'll try to listen again to soon and understand a bit better.

To my knowledge Walcha only recorded two complete sets of the Orgelbüchlein. The one on the Arp Schnitger organ in Cappel (mono) and the one on the Silbermann/Kern organ in Strassbourg (stereo).
On the other hand I did own (a gift from an old friend) in my early youth a recording of the three first of the Orgelbüchlein preludes (BWV 599, 600 and 601)  on a 78 rpm disc played on the Stellwagen organ, St. Jacobi, Lübeck, recorded 1947. He recorded also parts of the so called mono set on that organ (BWV 547 and 565 among others) in the same year. If there was as complete 78 rpm version of the Orgelbüchlein, it did not even survive the change from 78 to LP, and I find it to be most unlikely, that he should have recorded a complete set in Lübeck in 1947 and again in Cappel in 1950/52..
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on February 27, 2013, 06:56:02 AM
Came across this by a fortuitous accident. It's the 2012 English translation of a German book first published in '06.

[asin]0252078454[/asin]

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Octave on February 27, 2013, 11:32:55 PM
I was preparing a question about TRIO SONATAS by Marie-Claire Alain when I noticed Nav's obituary/memorial thread on her; what a shock.  Since by coincidence I was going to ask this question in this thread, perhaps it's a good time after all to discuss her art for a little while.  I know almost nothing, only an Erato (?) chorales disc recorded between her 2nd the 3rd cycles, ~1985?  I have been poised to get one of her cycles as soon as I've spent some more time with the Bach organ music I already have.

I think Mandryka once spoke very highly of some Trio Sonatas by Alain, but I cannot find his comment, so perhaps I am dreaming it?  Do you remember if the Sonatas you heard were from one of the cycles, Mandryka, and if so, which one?

As an addendum, there was some conversation about Alain's various (4?) TRIO SONATAS recordings, at least ~p. 8 and ~p.28 of this thread.  I will excerpt some of this discussion below, with occasion annotations in [...] to clarify which editions are being described.  Probably useless, but at least you will know I tried to do some research first!

I see that Coop expressed an appreciation of this Trio Sonatas disc:
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=638.0;attach=15680;image)
I'm curious if this particular recording (discussed below) has been reissued recently?

Some conversation (strictly optional):
premont responded as follows:
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 21, 2009, 10:08:01 AM
This recording of the Triosonatas is, as far as I can read from the cover, the fourth (!) recording Alain made (in the time between the second and the third integral). Why she only recorded the triosonatas one more time, I do not know, but I agree, that it is very good, very chamber music like and rhythmically alert.

The elusive Antoine Marchand replied:
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 21, 2009, 11:22:48 AM
You are incredible, dear Premont!

I have been finding out: The Trio Sonatas included in the M-C Alain second set were recorded on the Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France. I don't know the recording date because isn't delivered with my set, but it's said that all of them were recorded between May 1978 and April 1980. It seems that the original set included 21 LPs.
   
In the Coopmv's disc (a digital recording) Alain plays the organ at the église Saint-Hilaire de Nafels, Glaris, Switzerland. It was recorded on September, 1984.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 05, 2009, 11:28:54 PM
We discussed some time ago on this M-C Alain's disc and the conclusions were the following:

It [the Trio Sonatas disc pictured above] is not a part of her integral recordings. It is a single disc recorded between her second and third integral (digital recording). Alain plays there the organ at the Église Saint-Hilaire de Nafels, Glaris, Switzerland. It was recorded on September, 1984.

On the other hand, the trio sonatas disc included in the M-C Alain second integral –at least the disc originally included there- was recorded on the Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France (analogue recording). I do not know the recording date because is not provided with my set, but that complete set was recorded between May 1978 and April 1980. Apparently, the original set included 21 LPs.

Although perhaps at some point Erato replaced with that digital recording the original one included in the second integral. Is it possible?  :)

Premont responds to this:
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 06, 2009, 01:57:18 AM
The precise recording dates were not even published in the notes to the original 21 LP set, which I still keep.
Probably not. I have never seen the Näfels recording constituting a part of a complete set. But I know, that the second integral was rereleased on CD between 10 and 15 years ago, and I do not know whethe the Náfels recording was included in this or not, but I do not think so, since the second recent CD release of the set includes the Schwenkedel recording.

Marc responds:
Quote from: Marc on December 06, 2009, 02:14:41 AM
The second integral hasn't changed (as far as the Trio Sonatas are concerned: Schwenkedel) and is still available, at least in Europe.

I'm afraid that the 'in-between' recording (Näfels) [pictured above] is OOP. Though internet or library searching can provide a solution to that problem of course.

For example:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Sonates-525-530/dp/B000LCIWL6

But premont replies:
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 06, 2009, 02:31:31 AM
But this [Näfels SONATAS, pictured above] is only for completists. I do not think the Näfels recording adds much to the Schwenkedel recording [2nd cycle, rec. '78-'80, most recently reissued by Erato in 15cd set], and if one also has got the Aa Kerk recording (third integral) one is very well-assorted as to M C Alain / Bach Triosonatas.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 28, 2013, 10:24:09 AM
Octave, at least there's one comforting thought: any compact disc with Alain playing Bach is value for money. (Bless her.)

I think that Premont liked this 'in between 2nd & 3rd integral' recording (Näfels) as much as her recording of the 2nd integral, but if one already owns the 2nd integral then the Näfels recording doesn't add that much.

But, suppose one would decide to buy her 3rd integral and leave the 2nd integral 'untouched', then the Näfels might be an interesting add-on, if one could find it somewhere for a decent price. AFAIK, it hasn't been re-released recently. But most Amazon-sellers are trustworthy, at least that's my experience so far. If you really want it, then there's no hesitation needed to get one of those 2nd hand issues.

About MC Alain & Bach in general: IMO, all Alain's Bach recordings in the period 1975-1985 (a.o. 2nd integral + Trio Sonatas in Näfels) are (just slightly) more to the point than her recordings during the 90s (3rd integral). But the 3rd integral offers more interesting (historic) instruments.
For instance: the Trio Sonatas are played on the beautiful Schnitger/Timpe organ of the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen, NL. Alain's playing is less expressive though than in her earlier recordings. Still, I have a very weak spot for this 'HIP/PI' performance.

Hope this reaction is somehow useful.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on February 28, 2013, 06:28:51 PM
Quote from: Octave on February 27, 2013, 11:32:55 PM
I was preparing a question about TRIO SONATAS by Marie-Claire Alain when I noticed Nav's obituary/memorial thread on her; what a shock.  Since by coincidence I was going to ask this question in this thread, perhaps it's a good time after all to discuss her art for a little while.  I know almost nothing, only an Erato (?) chorales disc recorded between her 2nd the 3rd cycles, ~1985?  I have been poised to get one of her cycles as soon as I've spent some more time with the Bach organ music I already have.



I may have that same recording:  does it contain the Schubler Chorales?  It was among my first Bach CDs, purchased back when CDs were a brand new thing.

I have her second set, and found it very satisfactory indeed (but without prejudice to her first or third sets, neither of which I've heard).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 28, 2013, 08:28:31 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 28, 2013, 06:28:51 PM
I may have that same recording:  does it contain the Schubler Chorales?  It was among my first Bach CDs, purchased back when CDs were a brand new thing.

That's probably another disc 'in between', with only chorale preludes:

(http://i50.tinypic.com/13ztz42.jpg)

For this one goes the same: it's good, but no real add-on if one already owns the second integral. There's one 'bonus' on this one though: Jesus bleibet meine Freude, after BWV 147, no. 10.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 28, 2013, 06:28:51 PM
I have her second set, and found it very satisfactory indeed (but without prejudice to her first or third sets, neither of which I've heard).

The first one (1959-1968), on mainly Marcussen and Frobenius organs in Denmark, never made it to cd (yet).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Octave on February 28, 2013, 08:38:30 PM
Thanks to both of you!

Hopefully irrelevant, but I received this Rubsam/Naxos "rush box" today, and had the unpleasant surprise* of finding the slipcase full of Haydn/Kodaly string quartets discs!  Everything shrinkwrapped.  I shot off a little inquiry to Naxos HQ, just in case they know about this and it's a widespread problem.  Maybe a good idea to get your dealer to look at the spines of the enclosed single discs before you buy.

*not that there's anything unpleasant about Haydn quartets

[asin]B0000014C1[/asin]
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Octave on March 01, 2013, 01:11:10 AM
A very minor question about editions (all HM) of Rene Saorgin's ORGELBÜCHLEIN.  I see that there is one ~1997 "Musique d'Abord" HM reissue that is two discs, with this listed on the cover:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519Ytm0dAiL._SX300_.jpg)

Other editions seem to be only one very long disc, 79 minutes.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416WTD5GT8L.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416HW6HGFHL.jpg)
(http://www.discogs.com/JS-Bach-Ren%C3%A9-Saorgin-Orgelb%C3%BCchlein-Petit-Livre-DOrgue/release/1495261)

All three editions seem to contain the same 45 track divisions, if the contents online can be trusted.  I just wanted to see if the 2cd edition contained some other material.  One Amazon Uk reviewer says: "It is now all on one disc..." so that might answer my question.   I still thought I would ask, just in case.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: aukhawk on March 01, 2013, 03:55:58 AM
Quote from: Octave on February 28, 2013, 08:38:30 PM
*not that there's anything unpleasant about Haydn quartets

Especially this one - excellent record -
(http://www.sainsburysentertainment.co.uk/media/ProductImage/largeImage/ProductImage-1003894.jpg)
(OT, sorry, couldn't resist.  Anyway, at least now you have the cover art.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 01, 2013, 05:57:49 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 28, 2013, 10:24:09 AM
Octave, at least there's one comforting thought: any compact disc with Alain playing Bach is value for money. (Bless her.)

I think that Premont liked this 'in between 2nd & 3rd integral' recording (Näfels) as much as her recording of the 2nd integral, but if one already owns the 2nd integral then the Näfels recording doesn't add that much.

But, suppose one would decide to buy her 3rd integral and leave the 2nd integral 'untouched', then the Näfels might be an interesting add-on, if one could find it somewhere for a decent price. AFAIK, it hasn't been re-released recently. But most Amazon-sellers are trustworthy, at least that's my experience so far. If you really want it, then there's no hesitation needed to get one of those 2nd hand issues.

About MC Alain & Bach in general: IMO, all Alain's Bach recordings in the period 1975-1985 (a.o. 2nd integral + Trio Sonatas in Näfels) are (just slightly) more to the point than her recordings during the 90s (3rd integral). But the 3rd integral offers more interesting (historic) instruments.
For instance: the Trio Sonatas are played on the beautiful Schnitger/Timpe organ of the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen, NL. Alain's playing is less expressive though than in her earlier recordings. Still, I have a very weak spot for this 'HIP/PI' performance.

What Marc said. :)

Marie Claire Alain also recorded a near-complete Bach-set (including the triosonatas) already in the mid-1950´es for Erato on the Clicquot-Gonzales organ of the Eglise Saint-Merry, Paris.
Her officially "first integral" on neobaroque Danish organs has first and foremost got historical interest. The playing is rather stiff, particularly in the choral-free works.
So similar things may even apply to the earlier incomplete set, I suspect, but I do not know for sure, as I do not know the set.

Here is a link to the most complete Alain discography I ever have seen. The site contains also extensive discographies of many other organists.:
http://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.eng.rch&org=%22Marie-Claire+ALAIN%22&tit=&oeu=&ins=&cdo=1&dvo=1&vno=1&edi=&nrow=190&cmd=Next

Edit: I was not aware, that Mandryka posted this link in another thread already yesterday. Sorry.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 02, 2013, 10:14:01 AM
Quote from: Octave on February 27, 2013, 11:32:55 PM
I was preparing a question about TRIO SONATAS by Marie-Claire Alain when I noticed Nav's obituary/memorial thread on her; what a shock.  Since by coincidence I was going to ask this question in this thread, perhaps it's a good time after all to discuss her art for a little while.  I know almost nothing, only an Erato (?) chorales disc recorded between her 2nd the 3rd cycles, ~1985?  I have been poised to get one of her cycles as soon as I've spent some more time with the Bach organ music I already have.

I think Mandryka once spoke very highly of some Trio Sonatas by Alain, but I cannot find his comment, so perhaps I am dreaming it?  Do you remember if the Sonatas you heard were from one of the cycles, Mandryka, and if so, which one?

As an addendum, there was some conversation about Alain's various (4?) TRIO SONATAS recordings, at least ~p. 8 and ~p.28 of this thread.  I will excerpt some of this discussion below, with occasion annotations in [...] to clarify which editions are being described.  Probably useless, but at least you will know I tried to do some research first!

I see that Coop expressed an appreciation of this Trio Sonatas disc:
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=638.0;attach=15680;image)
I'm curious if this particular recording (discussed below) has been reissued recently?

Some conversation (strictly optional):
premont responded as follows:
The elusive Antoine Marchand replied:
Premont responds to this:
Marc responds:
But premont replies:

TRIO SONATAS by Marie-Claire Alain is the best version of these works out there IMO.  I have owned this same Erato CD for a good twenty years.  May she rest in peace.  What an outstanding organist she was.  I believe the English organist Margaret Phillips studied with Alain ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 09, 2013, 08:03:22 PM
 Hello there! I hope i'm not too late. I was so thrilled with this thread that i joined GMG just to post some questions -- and offer thanks. :) I've read the entire thread; and in the meanwhile things seem to have quieted down...but i'll give it a try.


Bach's organ works were the first music i fell in love with as a young child. Then over the years i expanded into many kinds of music. Bach and baroque remained favorites, though for some reason mostly in genres other than organ. I've lived through the rise of HIP in the mainstream, and think i have a decent amateur's understanding of baroque HIP. But least of all re organ, which i'm getting back into and want to learn much more about.


I'm going to wait on  more specific issues of interpretation and recordings; it seems better to start by catching up with Bach organ basics. I've looked around the web a bit, and in the books at my university library (i didn't tackle the journals), but i still could use help with the following. (Oh, and i'm not asking anyone to write these up themselves, just hoping for web documents that aren't tooooo long or technical. If there aren't any that you know of, i can ask more focused questions, give examples, etc.)
Just so you know i'm doing my homework: I've of course found plenty on the organ itself, though i'm sure i'll have a couple questions about that when i'm ready.


And to close re doing my homework: I'm obviously new to GMG forums, and i have looked around some. But please point me to anything i've missed. Also advise if a new thread is warranted, perhaps focused on interpretation vs favorite pieces/recordings? Otoh, it'd be great to keep this thread going as the major Bach organ reference.


I've set it as my signature, but i can't resist a first-post Thank You for everything!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 10, 2013, 12:09:36 AM
Hello there and welcome!

I recognize many of your questions, but I have to admit: I'm too lazy to check them all out, and, combined with that, very happy with my own taste and preferences, without getting all that deep into music history and layman scholarship.
But the questions themselves are certainly interesting, I agree with that.

Despite my own flabbily attitude in these matters, heres are some links to start with.
But there should be many more.

First, a shortlist of myths on baroque harpsichord playing, and a link to an e-book by Claudio Di Veroli about playing the baroque harpsichord, a.o. compared to clavichord and organ.

http://www.saladelcembalo.org/instruments/myths30.htm
http://play.braybaroque.ie/

Ewald Kooiman and Gerhard Weinberger wrote a book about interpreting Bach's organ music. Unfortunately, it's only available in German.

http://www.amazon.de/Interpretation-Orgelmusik-Johann-Sebastian-Bachs/dp/3875372158/

Here's a book about registration of baroque organ music:

http://www.thetutorpages.com/tutor-article/harpsichord/interpreting-ornaments-in-french-baroque-music/4479

And, as a 'consolation', a link that proofs that we are talking about difficult matters, just some quotes about ornamention in French baroque music:

http://www.thetutorpages.com/tutor-article/harpsichord/interpreting-ornaments-in-french-baroque-music/4479
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Octave on May 10, 2013, 12:18:23 AM
While the thread is bumped up, late thanks everybody for assistance in some of the questions I'd posed re: M-C Alain etc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2013, 10:16:23 PM
Quote from: alyosha on May 09, 2013, 08:03:22 PM
Hello there! I hope i'm not too late. I was so thrilled with this thread that i joined GMG just to post some questions -- and offer thanks. :) I've read the entire thread; and in the meanwhile things seem to have quieted down...but i'll give it a try.


Bach's organ works were the first music i fell in love with as a young child. Then over the years i expanded into many kinds of music. Bach and baroque remained favorites, though for some reason mostly in genres other than organ. I've lived through the rise of HIP in the mainstream, and think i have a decent amateur's understanding of baroque HIP. But least of all re organ, which i'm getting back into and want to learn much more about.


I'm going to wait on  more specific issues of interpretation and recordings; it seems better to start by catching up with Bach organ basics. I've looked around the web a bit, and in the books at my university library (i didn't tackle the journals), but i still could use help with the following. (Oh, and i'm not asking anyone to write these up themselves, just hoping for web documents that aren't tooooo long or technical. If there aren't any that you know of, i can ask more focused questions, give examples, etc.)

       
  • How does HIP Bach organ interpretation differ from harpsichord? (Teaser: ...because i'm hearing differences, and i'm confused...)
  • Anything on the history of Bach organ interpretation, especially traditional schools that preceded HIP.
Just so you know i'm doing my homework: I've of course found plenty on the organ itself, though i'm sure i'll have a couple questions about that when i'm ready.


And to close re doing my homework: I'm obviously new to GMG forums, and i have looked around some. But please point me to anything i've missed. Also advise if a new thread is warranted, perhaps focused on interpretation vs favorite pieces/recordings? Otoh, it'd be great to keep this thread going as the major Bach organ reference.


I've set it as my signature, but i can't resist a first-post Thank You for everything!

On harpsichord interpretation pre Hip, you could get the collection of Landowska's writings published by her pupil Denise Restout in a book called "Landowska on Music"

Another harpsichordist whose style I adore is Albert Fuller, though whether you'd say he was pre-Hip or not isn't clear to me. Anything you can find either about or by him, please ,let me know.

There was a thread about Raphael Puyana somewhere here, made when he died recenly. I made some comments about how I thought his music making deteriorated when he became interested in HIP ideas.

We've discussed the book on Walcha by Joseph Kunz on this thread. I got some very valuable and amusing  things from it. I myself would like to read Walcha's own memoir, so if you find it in English or French please let me know. Another thing i'd like to read is Leonhardt's paper "In Praise of Two-manual Flemish Harpsichord"

More generally Bruce Haynes book on the End of Early Music has some tools which may be applicable to ideas about playing baroque keyboard music.

I should say that I find the idea of HIP really unhelpful. I'm tempted to say that the term should be avoided, and instead just think in terms of various schools of performance - Dutch, Italian etc. Or just think about PI. Of better, think about what the performers' ideas are about expression and articulation and rhythm.

Messori, Moroney and Rubsam all think their performances are informed. It's not very helpful that, to make sense of what they're doing.





Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 11, 2013, 11:21:23 AM
@Marc: Thanks for the links. I'm not surprised there's not much readily accessible (in english) -- i already searched some on my own.  And i know it's complicated/controversial, and what you mean re "layman scholarship". I'll post something that will both narrow the issues (more fun, easier to respond?) and focus on what we can hear and not simply read about...

@Mandryka: Thanks for all the suggestions -- i see the Haynes book in my future... I'm a lot more familiar with the harpsichord story. And intrigued about aspects of the organ that have perhaps made its story unique: fixed in particular types of locations; built in different styles over time but not, if i may say, as much change as harpsichord to piano; much less of a continuous stream of new mainstream/popular compositions (i know there have been many new works, but again i mean contrasted with, say, the home use and concert popularity of the piano). The whole thing fascinates me, esp re how all that has affected performance traditions. Which gets to HIP: I welcome your skepticism. I can color outside those lines myself.
:o   But i do feel it helps, esp to keep clear one extreme vs another, even if there's a big grey area in between. And learning the lay of that land can be very helpful for a beginner (like me, re organ for sure). Again, a post coming right up might clarify...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 11, 2013, 12:03:59 PM
[Sorry about the fonts; still trying to figure it out. Newbie stuff... :-[ ]

To be more specific about my first question: There's one main interpretive difference i'm hearing early in my dive back into Bach organ, when compared to the large amount of harpsichord/etc i've listened to. I think the best term for it is rhythmic phrasing -- meaning expressive departures from perfectly even timing, shaping entire phrases. Not, as i saw clarified earlier in the thread, agogics (affecting notes individually), nor other short effects like "notes inegales"; nor the more occasional rubatos and rallentandos at turning points in the piece. I'm talking about the ebb and flow, the lilt, the swing, whatever shape is given to phrasing throughout the piece; affecting all lines at once or one in tension with others.


I don't want to get into a tangent (bad pun not intended!) about baroque/keyboard HIP, and i know our understanding of them is still evolving and is in varying degrees controversial. Suffice it to say that among contemporary harpsichordists (by which i mean Leonhardt on the early end, but esp his students and those otherwise in the next generation), while there's a spectrum, one hears a great deal of clearly non-even timing throughout Bach string-keyboard performance. And at the more even-timed end of the spectrum, it's as a rule still not metronomic, though the departures can be subtle.


In most of the Bach organ i've sampled recently, though, i don't find this to be the case. The default style is to my ears quite even, certainly a big shift across the spectrum more so than harpsichord. To clarify, of course there are significant sections that are understood to be improvisatory, or introductory, etc, such that they're played more ad lib; and once again there are the rallentandos etc at section and piece endings; and so on. But in between, it's very often back to quite even time.

I'm deliberately not offering examples -- to keep this short (or less long), and not to emphasize my newbie perceptions, but to ask you: Am i wrong about this? Why is this the case? Is there an express HIP reason for the difference? Or is it tradition adhering to the instruments?

Ok, i will give one example: Walcha. I find him generally even in the way i've described. And i was excited to discover i could check this against his harpsichord Partitas. And to be honest -- and please be clear i have tremendous respect for him -- i found them pretty much metronomic, i would say quite beyond the pale of contemporary HIP. But i don't know what that means about his organ playing, being ignorant about organ pre-/HIP...

So the final question, perhaps most fun for the forum:
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 11, 2013, 10:25:51 PM
So when I read your post I tried to think of Bach organists who use agogic accents and hesitations as strikingly as Rubsam does in his piano recordings, or Vartolo in his Art of Fugue.

The one that popped into my head straight away was Mateo Messori in his CU 3.

Clearly there are loads of organists who play more flexibly than Walcha. But that's a different point.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 13, 2013, 12:13:10 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 11, 2013, 10:25:51 PM So when I read your post I tried to think of Bach organists who use agogic accents and hesitations as strikingly as Rubsam does in his piano recordings, or Vartolo in his Art of Fugue.

The one that popped into my head straight away was Mateo Messori in his CU 3.


Well-chosen -- thank you so much! (And gorgeous harpsichord playing as well.)


Any other ideas, thread-readers?

As to Rubsam: I was asking in the HIP context...but more on that in a minute ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 13, 2013, 12:20:41 PM
 Ok, public and private feedback indicates that my first post questions were a bit too broad. So here's some more self-intro leading into making the second question more specific.

My standard tastes for earlier music are perhaps "dumbbell"-shaped: HIP is my favorite for sure . (I have a broad view of HIP, but that's a topic for another time.) And i also like idiosyncratic, post-/modern types. People who in their various ways, however they think of it, may be picking and choosing from diverse approaches, almost arranging vs performing, creating something more original than simply a new mainstream interpretation. Listeners will have their own definitions and fuzzy boundaries, but some examples for me: Gould and Pletnev on piano, Kremer on violin, Fisk on guitar. (Note that HIP can be one of the ingredients in the postmodern recipe.) And reading/listening through this thread, right up to Mandryka's post just above, i've thought about Rubsam. Listening to his Bach on piano, i'm inclined to include him as well. But i'm too ignorant to say re organ.

At the "handle" of the barbell, i tend to be least interested in traditional/romantic pre-HIP. No disrespect to the artists, not at all!; and again i'll avoid going into general HIPology (though i'm happy for others to raise it >:D ). The simplest thing is that i was raised on that stuff, and i know it well -- usually too well for my taste. For instance romanticized Bach violin concertos with a modern solo instrument, bowing and vibrato, large orchestra, etc.

The reason i've gone into this, besides self-introduction, is that organ is a different story for me. I don't have an ear for romantic or otherwise pre-HIP Bach organ interpretation. Nor how to pick those aspects out of a performer's mix (perhaps relating to Mandryka's point about "HIP" not being helpful?). I guess there is one i know i can hear, and that is frequent registration changes. But even there...

So my questions this time: Could folks please recommend Bach organists who:
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 14, 2013, 12:26:15 AM
Quote from: alyosha on May 13, 2013, 12:20:41 PM
So my questions this time: Could folks please recommend Bach organists who:

       
  • are relatively pure examples of romantic, perhaps regional, in any case mainstream pre-HIP?

       
  • are idiosyncratic, in the way i defined above? Would Rubsam be a candidate?

Hmm... I'm with you re: Gould and esp. Pletnev, but when it comes to Bach and organ, that's not even the frame of reference I have in my interpretative preference. There it's all about pulse. As long as the pulse is steady (and there are a million different ways it could be), I'm game... but when I think "idiosyncratic", I think arrhythmia... and I don't want that at any price. But what does that mean to you? Does it include the instrument choice? "pure examples of romantic, perhaps regional, in any case mainstream pre-HIP?" confuses me so, I it is meaningless to me. Pre-HIP? HIP has always been around when it comes to organs, because of the organs. But then there's playing style ("heel or no heel" being part of that package), agogics... I know no recording where there are choristers on the bellows... though surely that would dictate truly HIP tempos... in any case: an out-of-the-ordinary, wonderful, colorful collection is the Silbermann Organ survey on Berlin Classics (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000TGF1G8/goodmusicguide-20). (See also: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/notes-from-2012-dresden-music-festival_23.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/notes-from-2012-dresden-music-festival_23.html)

There's some eccentricity, even arrhythmia in Vernet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002ZXZJ92/goodmusicguide-20), but only for a few works early on... and from there his set emerges as a bright and wholly enjoyable survey... and certainly not along been-there-done-that lines...

Michel Chapuis (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B005HO1WCY/goodmusicguide-20) has his odd and crazy moments from what I've gathered...

Ruebsam II (http://www.amazon.com/lm/R3T4JY2CA16F2W/?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&linkCode=ur2&lm_bb=&tag=goodmusicguide-20) is certainly "different". He's got a pulse, by all means... just a deliberate one. He's very keen himself on these recordings, as opposed to the youthful 'plain dash' on Philips.

(or as others have put it: " the early Rübsam is still far from the ponderous slowness that make some of his later Naxos recordings unbearable")

More at another point... I am in the process of putting all Bach Organ cycles together in a survey, which might yield more information that could be useful to you. Oh, and if you want wacky: there's always that crazy Frenchman whose name escapes me... who actually recorded two (oop) cycles for Philips and who ...Guillou! Shudder. Terrifying, to my ears, but definitely idiosyncratic!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 14, 2013, 03:24:12 AM
I sometimes think that Rubsam 2 is influenced by Walcha 2, by the idea that the best way to play baroque music is to preserve in its sound something still, calm and concentrated.

One organist you may enjoy hearing is Lena Jacobson, but as far as I know she hasn't recorded any Bach. There's also Jolanda Zwoferink.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on May 14, 2013, 06:17:29 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 14, 2013, 12:26:15 AMOh, and if you want wacky: there's always that crazy Frenchman whose name escapes me... who actually recorded two (oop) cycles for Philips and who ...Guillou! Shudder. Terrifying, to my ears, but definitely idiosyncratic!

Who can you be talking about?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on May 14, 2013, 06:28:02 AM
Quote from: Parsifal on May 14, 2013, 06:17:29 AM
Who can you be talking about?

Quote from: jlaurson on May 14, 2013, 12:26:15 AM
... I am in the process of putting all Bach Organ cycles together in a survey, which might yield more information that could be useful to you. Oh, and if you want wacky: there's always that crazy Frenchman whose name escapes me... who actually recorded two (oop) cycles for Philips and who ...Guillou! Shudder. Terrifying, to my ears, but definitely idiosyncratic!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iQwGAJdyL._SY300_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on May 14, 2013, 06:31:24 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 14, 2013, 06:28:02 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iQwGAJdyL._SY300_.jpg)

Ok, but that's not Philips.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on May 14, 2013, 06:35:42 AM
I never said I could do it all.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on May 14, 2013, 06:39:38 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 14, 2013, 06:35:42 AM
I never said I could do it all.

I understand, you're still light-headed from climbing all of those stairs and you haven't had your cookie yet...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on May 14, 2013, 06:49:22 AM
Well, I do not see any conditions under which I could do it all, so it is generally a claim I avoid.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 14, 2013, 06:53:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 14, 2013, 06:28:02 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iQwGAJdyL._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4107EPYT2QL.jpg)

One for Philips, the other for Dorian then...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 14, 2013, 08:05:48 AM
Quote from: alyosha on May 13, 2013, 12:20:41 PM
And i also like idiosyncratic, post-/modern types. People who in their various ways, however they think of it, may be picking and choosing from diverse approaches, almost arranging vs performing, creating something more original than simply a new mainstream interpretation. Listeners will have their own definitions and fuzzy boundaries, but some examples for me: Gould and Pletnev on piano, Kremer on violin, Fisk on guitar. (Note that HIP can be one of the ingredients in the postmodern recipe.) And reading/listening through this thread, right up to Mandryka's post just above, i've thought about Rubsam. Listening to his Bach on piano, i'm inclined to include him as well. But i'm too ignorant to say re organ

I was really thinking of articulation when I suggested you try Messori before.  If I think now about registration and counterpoint, then one interesting performance of Art of Fugue at least is Keï Koïto's. Jens Christensen too.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 14, 2013, 09:58:29 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 14, 2013, 12:26:15 AM
Guillou! Shudder. Terrifying, to my ears, but definitely idiosyncratic!

You know, this is an organist who has always left me cold, I only get the impression of empty technique, and that's stopped me exploring what he does in any depth.

I hope there's a Guillou fan out there who can inspire me, point me to  a really successful performance. I see that there's a ton of his CDs on qobuz streaming.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 14, 2013, 11:48:16 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 14, 2013, 12:26:15 AM
.. there's always that crazy Frenchman whose name escapes me... who actually recorded two (oop) cycles for Philips and who ...Guillou! Shudder. Terrifying, to my ears, but definitely idiosyncratic!

Quote from: Mandryka on May 14, 2013, 09:58:29 AM
You know, this is an organist who has always left me cold, I only get the impression of empty technique, and that's stopped me exploring what he does in any depth.


Once I owned his first incomplete "cycle" for Dorian (5 CDs + 1CD with his transcription of the Goldbergvariations). I have to admit, that I parted with it. Even completism has got its natural limits. And I have never considered his second more complete live cycle for Philips (1999).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on May 14, 2013, 11:50:41 AM
Quote from: Parsifal on May 14, 2013, 06:17:29 AM
Who can you be talking about?

Jean Guillou, as Jens said... Creepy.

Unfortunately (just kidding), this set is available:

http://www.amazon.es/Bach-lOeuvre-Orgue-Guillou-Jean/dp/B008OJ29J4/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1368560905&sr=8-9&keywords=guillou
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on May 14, 2013, 12:13:43 PM
All these comments have convinced me I need these Guillou recordings!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 14, 2013, 12:47:35 PM
Quote from: Parsifal on May 14, 2013, 12:13:43 PM
All these comments have convinced me I need these Guillou recordings!

Just agree on a safety word, beforehand!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 14, 2013, 01:46:44 PM
Quote from: alyosha on May 11, 2013, 12:03:59 PM
To be more specific about my first question: There's one main interpretive difference i'm hearing early in my dive back into Bach organ, when compared to the large amount of harpsichord/etc i've listened to. I think the best term for it is rhythmic phrasing -- meaning expressive departures from perfectly even timing, shaping entire phrases. Not, as i saw clarified earlier in the thread, agogics (affecting notes individually), nor other short effects like "notes inegales"; nor the more occasional rubatos and rallentandos at turning points in the piece. I'm talking about the ebb and flow, the lilt, the swing, whatever shape is given to phrasing throughout the piece; affecting all lines at once or one in tension with others.[/size][/font]


In most of the Bach organ i've sampled recently, though, i don't find this to be the case. The default style is to my ears quite even, certainly a big shift across the spectrum more so than harpsichord. To clarify, of course there are significant sections that are understood to be improvisatory, or introductory, etc, such that they're played more ad lib; and once again there are the rallentandos etc at section and piece endings; and so on. But in between, it's very often back to quite even time.

You are obviously talking about rhythmic rubato, which means rhytmic free playing within the frames of an even pulse. It can be used more or less subtle. It is true, that most organists still use this expressive tool in a rather restrained way.  In the first many years after the organ movement, which caused the subtotal cease of romantic expressive playing (some traits like general legato playing were maintained), most organists wanted just to play what they read in the score, and since Bachs organ music scores only indicate pitch and only to some extent rhythm and tempo, this gave rise to rhythmic monotone, homogeneous playing, fittingly called sewing-machine style. It a took long time to get past this step, and in practice the catalysator was Gustav Leonhardt particularly for keyboard players. But Leonhardt was first and foremost harpsichordist and his pupils accordingly harpsichordists too. This may explain why harpsichordists were the first to adopt the rhythmic rubato, which since the mid 1960es was one of the definite characteristics of Leonhardt´s style.  It is worth noting, that even Leonhardt in his Bach organ recordings from the 1970es uses very little rhytmic rubato. I have problems with seeing a similarly groundbreaking figure concerning the rhytmic rubato among the organists. Rather the widely dominating Helmut Walcha may have acted as a partial obstacle to the development.

Recording organists which use any substantial degree of rhythmic rubato in Bach are still few. I think one of the first was Ewald Kooiman, who combined the rhythmic rubato with a distinct - and sometimes maybe a bit overdone - rhythmic articulation. His two first Bach integrals (the first on Dutch LPs, the second on Coronata CDs) are difficult to get hold of. His third integral on Aeolus, from which he died, and which was completed by three of his pupils, is worth some consideration. He recorded 8 of the 19 CDs.

I agree with Mandryka about Matteo Messori. For Brilliant he has recorded Clavierübung III and this doubleCD with mainly choral free works:
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Schubler-Chorales-Messori/dp/B009F2CWWS/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1368565144&sr=1-8&keywords=matteo+messori

It is obvious to mention Wolfgang Rübsam´s second Bach integral (Naxos), but he is more controversial. An acquired taste if you ever acquire it.


As to litterature I agree with Marc´s mentioning of Kooiman and Weinbergers book:
http://www.amazon.de/Interpretation-Orgelmusik-Johann-Sebastian-Bachs/dp/3875372158/

Also I would mention this book by Dorottya Fabian. She deals in detail with the different elements of performance practice (balance. tempo, dynamics, ornamentation, rhythm and articulation) in the preauthentic and early authentic age. Her point of departure is not the organ music but the SMP, the SJP, the Goldberg variations and the Brandenburg concertos, put her conclusions are applicable on the organ music too:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Performance-Practice-1945-1975-Comprehensive/dp/0754605493/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1368565854&sr=8-5&keywords=robert+donington+the+interpretation+of+early+music

Also Robert Donington´s book: The interpretation of Early music (W W Norton) has some relevant sections about performance practice:
http://www.amazon.fr/The-Interpretation-Early-Music-Donington/dp/039396003X/ref=tmm_ghc_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1368566696&sr=8-2

Bruce Haynes´ book The End of Early Music, which Mandryka recommends, is well written, if only partially relevant to your questions, but I think everybody with a keen interest in early music ought to read it:
http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Early-Music-Twenty-First/dp/0195189876/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368567002&sr=8-1&keywords=bruce+haynes+the+end+of+early+music


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on May 14, 2013, 02:25:20 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 14, 2013, 12:47:35 PM
Just agree on a safety word, beforehand!

My experience is that Bach's music survives eccentricity better than the stultifying notion that it must be played properly or not at all. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 14, 2013, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: Parsifal on May 14, 2013, 02:25:20 PM
My experience is that Bach's music survives eccentricity better than the stultifying notion that it must be played properly or not at all.

You seem to imply, that it only can be played properly in one way.
De facto it can be played properly in many ways - even eccentric ways.
But this is not to say, that every kind of eccentricity suits the music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 14, 2013, 09:33:46 PM
I think it's interesting that  Leonhardt used such  little rhythmic rubato in his Bach organ recordings, even though he's very happy to use it in, for example, Art of Fugue.

Where did the idea that you should play baroque organ music using agogic accents and hesitations come from? I know that harpsichord manuals discuss it, but are there some early organ manuals which talk anout expression?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 15, 2013, 12:09:51 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 14, 2013, 09:33:46 PM
I think it's interesting that  Leonhardt used such  little rhythmic rubato in his Bach organ recordings, even though he's very happy to use it in, for example, Art of Fugue.

Where did the idea that you should play baroque organ music using agogic accents and hesitations come from? I know that harpsichord manuals discuss it, but are there some early organ manuals which talk anout expression?

Some baroque authors generally warn against "stiff" playing, but I do not think any specific reference to rhythmic rubato exists. Not even Kooiman did seize the opportunity to explain it in his above mentioned book with Weinberger.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 15, 2013, 07:50:29 PM
Maybe one of the reasons (or even causes) for a different 'HIP' (or whatever) approach between organ and harpsichord playing, is the fact that, besides the similarity because they're both keyboard instruments, the latter is a (plucked) string instrument, whilst the organ is quite a different matter.

Both instruments seem to have a different 'imitatio' purpose. I always realize that when a classical newbie says that the harpsichord makes him/her think of a guitar.
So maybe we should include the 'HIP' approach towards lute playing, too?

I think it would be interesting to find out for what instrument(s) the indications like the specific staccato dots and legato slurs in Bach's original Trio Sonatas autograph were meant c.q. better suited. As a layman, I would say: better suited for chamber (string and or woodwind) instruments and for a 'de imitatio violistica' or 'imitando a la flauta' organ .... but who am I? Or could it also be meant for a clavichord, for its capability to play a more 'convincing' legato than a harpsichord?

Dunno dunno dunno.

So, as you see, in the end: more questions than answers. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 16, 2013, 12:33:49 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 15, 2013, 07:50:29 PM
Maybe one of the reasons (or even causes) for a different 'HIP' (or whatever) approach between organ and harpsichord playing, is the fact that, besides the similarity because they're both keyboard instruments, the latter is a (plucked) string instrument, whilst the organ is quite a different matter.

Both instruments seem to have a different 'imitatio' purpose. I always realize that when a classical newbie says that the harpsichord makes him/her think of a guitar.
So maybe we should include the 'HIP' approach towards lute playing, too?

I think it would be interesting to find out for what instrument(s) the indications like the specific staccato dots and legato slurs in Bach's original Trio Sonatas autograph were meant c.q. better suited. As a layman, I would say: better suited for chamber (string and or woodwind) instruments and for a 'de imitatio violistica' or 'imitando a la flauta' organ .... but who am I? Or could it also be meant for a clavichord, for its capability to play a more 'convincing' legato than a harpsichord?

Dunno dunno dunno.

So, as you see, in the end: more questions than answers. :)

Well, you bring the answers yourself.

The organ triosonatas have always left me with the impression of being composed in the first hand for two melody instruments (preferably strings) and continuo and only later arranged for two manuals and pedal. Whether this means organ or pedal harpsichord/clavichord nobody can say. We think we know, that Bach did not distinguish that much.

John Butt has examined Bach´s use of articulation marks and has made the conclusion, that they get more and more violinistic with time. And violinistic is what I would call the articulation marks in the triosonatas, and for that reason they are not keyboard specific. However I think they work best on organ, but there is no final truth about this question.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on May 16, 2013, 12:46:37 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 14, 2013, 02:35:32 PM
You seem to imply, that it only can be played properly in one way.
De facto it can be played properly in many ways - even eccentric ways.
But this is not to say, that every kind of eccentricity suits the music.

There is an implication that performances are in some way illegitimate if they do not conform to the  performance tradition approved by the "experts."  The fact that Guillou is rejected by the stuffy crowd makes me think he may be worth hearing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 16, 2013, 03:09:32 PM
Quote from: Parsifal on May 16, 2013, 12:46:37 PM
There is an implication that performances are in some way illegitimate if they do not conform to the  performance tradition approved by the "experts."  The fact that Guillou is rejected by the stuffy crowd makes me think he may be worth hearing.

It's, as always, all yours to figure out what you find worth hearing and what not.

As so often, when you are in contrarian mood, you pick up on implications and inferences that probably aren't there... and the fact that Guillou has few fans here (among a surprisingly wide-ranging swath of organ-music loving GMGers) is probably not because we're all stuffy and you're not... but because of this: http://youtu.be/hiv8gRYqTjI  ...which anyone is entitled to find awesome, of course. All I hear, meanwhile, is the godfather of Cameron Carpenter.

However, this is rather charming and amusing in a good way: http://youtu.be/4V4v4jw-7O0 (Jean Guillou In Portrait)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on May 16, 2013, 06:03:09 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 16, 2013, 03:09:32 PM
It's, as always, all yours to figure out what you find worth hearing and what not.

As so often, when you are in contrarian mood, you pick up on implications and inferences that probably aren't there... and the fact that Guillou has few fans here (among a surprisingly wide-ranging swath of organ-music loving GMGers) is probably not because we're all stuffy and you're not... but because of this: http://youtu.be/hiv8gRYqTjI  ...which anyone is entitled to find awesome, of course. All I hear, meanwhile, is the godfather of Cameron Carpenter.

However, this is rather charming and amusing in a good way: http://youtu.be/4V4v4jw-7O0 (Jean Guillou In Portrait)

Godfather of Cameron Carpenter? 
[shudders]
He can't be that awful, can he?
The one and only CD I ever gave away because of its awesome badness was by Carpenter.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 16, 2013, 06:33:17 PM
I'm excited that the thread has revived! I'm still exploring the great offerings, but a few things seemed worth posting:

Thanks for all the great ideas re the "idiosyncratic". I confess i'm not taken with Guillou; so far Rubsam is in the lead for that side of my split personality. Oh, and thanks to jlaurson for the amazon list!

Re HIP Bach organ with "rhythmic rubato" (whether what is stolen is returned or not ;) ), i'm grateful to premont and others for the recommendations and peek into the history.

I would like to briefly expand the rhythm issue beyond harpsichord, which i chose myself for a quicker and more apples-to-apples comparison.

Quote from: Mandryka on May 14, 2013, 09:33:46 PM
Where did the idea that you should play baroque organ music using agogic accents and hesitations come from?
(BTW, i apologize: i can't tell if this is skepticism or merely a question.)

Quote from: Marc on May 15, 2013, 07:50:29 PM
Maybe one of the reasons (or even causes) for a different 'HIP' (or whatever) approach between organ and harpsichord playing, is the fact that, besides the similarity because they're both keyboard instruments, the latter is a (plucked) string instrument, whilst the organ is quite a different matter.

My experience is that the most common baroque-HIP view is to encourage rhythmically expressive phrasing -- at least not completely even -- in varying ways but applying to a wide range of instruments, genres, and regional traditions. In larger ensembles it is oc less, one cannot be so ad lib; but among soloists it is very common. In my recent return, Bach organ has stood out from all of these (with exceptions of course, but enough that i remain curious).

So @Mandryka: As i understand it as a very lay man, there is ample scholarly support for various broad (though regionally/etc inflected)  baroque conceptions of music that are the assumed context of all instruments. Why would organ be the exception where that does not apply? I ask your question in the opposite direction: Are organists instructed, in the historical record, not to play like other keyboardists? Or violinists, singers, etc? Told, "Play in strict time, not like those others."? (Perhaps i should concede that music for religious services and occasions has a distinct context.)

And @Marc: You can already see my point. If rhythmic expression was HIP for, say, decaying but not sustaining instruments, that would be the answer. But that is not the case.

New topic, clarification @jlaurson: "Idiosyncratic" was simply my summary word for that whole description of Gould/Pletnev/etc, people whose interpretations stand out to many as unique, individual, unusual, etc. No "arrhythmia" implied. Nor requested. :)

Finally, @premont this time and others in the past: Kooiman and his last set have been so praised throughout the thread that a while back i visited the site. The one that stood out in my somewhat random sampling was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4d4R3NI4fo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4d4R3NI4fo) Warning that it's behind-the-scenes of recording sessions, broken up, mostly of the Tocctta, Adagio, and Fugue BWV 564. There's a whole lot i like about the opening, but the genre at that point is too "free" to be a good test; and i must admit the counterpoint that follows is pretty even, though it doesn't last long. But the Adagio at 5:26 and the Fugue at 8:25 are perfect examples of (his version of) similar-to-harpsichord playing that i've been missing. The bit of Concerto that follows is more subtle, though i still feel i'm in the world i'm used to...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 16, 2013, 07:35:45 PM
Quote from: alyosha on May 16, 2013, 06:33:17 PM[....] My experience is that the most common baroque-HIP view is to encourage rhythmically expressive phrasing -- at least not completely even -- in varying ways but applying to a wide range of instruments, genres, and regional traditions. In larger ensembles it is oc less, one cannot be so ad lib; but among soloists it is very common. In my recent return, Bach organ has stood out from all of these (with exceptions of course, but enough that i remain curious). [....]

It might be interesting to include f.i. Koopman's and Suzuki's recordings of Bach vocal works and compare them to their organ/harpsichord stuff. I feel that especially in Koopman's case the differences are quite striking: he's much more fluent in the vocal works. I once read in a Herreweghe interview that he and Koopman developed a different view upon the baroque vocal issue than f.i. the 'Leonhardt/Harnoncourt school', who use more rhythmically expressive phrasing, whilst Herreweghe said "it's still singing", and therefore another cup of tea (in his - and Koopman's - view).
It's also interesting to compare Koopman's organ playing in chorale and free organ works. To me, he sounds less rhythmically expressive in the chorale works. This could again be caused by the fact that he considers chorale works to be 'de imitatio vocalista' (or something like that ;)) and therefore different.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on May 17, 2013, 12:06:06 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 16, 2013, 03:09:32 PM
It's, as always, all yours to figure out what you find worth hearing and what not.

As so often, when you are in contrarian mood, you pick up on implications and inferences that probably aren't there... and the fact that Guillou has few fans here (among a surprisingly wide-ranging swath of organ-music loving GMGers) is probably not because we're all stuffy and you're not... but because of this: http://youtu.be/hiv8gRYqTjI  ...which anyone is entitled to find awesome, of course. All I hear, meanwhile, is the godfather of Cameron Carpenter.

However, this is rather charming and amusing in a good way: http://youtu.be/4V4v4jw-7O0 (Jean Guillou In Portrait)

I have far too much Bach organ music on the shelves to be getting another cycle, but I will definitely pick up his version of the Goldberg variations.  If that sparks my fancy I may go further.  I'm afraid t follows my philosophy regarding reviews or GMG comments.  The substantial information conveyed is that the recording exists.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 17, 2013, 01:23:45 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 16, 2013, 12:33:49 PM
Well, you bring the answers yourself.

The organ triosonatas have always left me with the impression of being composed in the first hand for two melody instruments (preferably strings) and continuo and only later arranged for two manuals and pedal. Whether this means organ or pedal harpsichord/clavichord nobody can say. We think we know, that Bach did not distinguish that much.

John Butt has examined Bach´s use of articulation marks and has made the conclusion, that they get more and more violinistic with time. And violinistic is what I would call the articulation marks in the triosonatas, and for that reason they are not keyboard specific. However I think they work best on organ, but there is no final truth about this question.

I guess violinistic means long phrasing, without necessarily implying legato.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 17, 2013, 01:55:50 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 17, 2013, 01:23:45 PM
I guess violinistic means long phrasing, without necessarily implying legato.

It may be more or less notes tied together (articulation - not phrasing) - and to be played legato. In fast movements often to support the rhythm, in slow movements also of a more cantabile nature.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 18, 2013, 02:51:12 AM
Ah, I've found my un-favorite Guillou on Youtube. Not fair, admittedly, but makes the point devilishly well, methinks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aoWoTo2pcE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aoWoTo2pcE)

The whole Clavierubung is out there, if you piece it together. (Haven't found a playlist.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 18, 2013, 07:00:17 AM
I know i've raised quite a few issues and questions (and there's more coming :o ) -- please allow me to bump the question re Bach organ pre-HIP.

In response to some comments, i was going to expand on and in a sense defend the question -- but that's mostly a waste since the point is i'm uninformed, am mostly assuming that what happened with other Bach happened in a roughly analogous way with organ, plus going on bits and pieces i've run across. It seems that others could give a much better answer.

I will offer that i've been reading about the organ reform movement etc, but since uses of the organ varied so widely this doesn't give me any clear idea of how Bach was interpreted. Also: if the question is unclear because in some places, say Germany and the Netherlands, things didn't drift so far as they did elsewhere, well that in itself would be very helpful to know.

Still, assuming that there was romanticized and otherwise pre-HIP Bach style, i'd love to learn anything about that, and to listen to good examples.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 18, 2013, 07:05:22 AM
Quote from: alyosha on May 18, 2013, 07:00:17 AM
I know i've raised quite a few issues and questions (and there's more coming :o ) -- please allow me to bump the question re Bach organ pre-HIP.

In response to some comments, i was going to expand on and in a sense defend the question -- but that's mostly a waste since the point is i'm uninformed, am mostly assuming that what happened with other Bach happened in a roughly analogous way with organ, plus going on bits and pieces i've run across. It seems that others could give a much better answer.

I will offer that i've been reading about the organ reform movement etc, but since uses of the organ varied so widely this doesn't give me any clear idea of how Bach was interpreted. Also: if the question is unclear because in some places, say Germany and the Netherlands, things didn't drift so far as they did elsewhere, well that in itself would be very helpful to know.

Still, assuming that there was romanticized and otherwise pre-HIP Bach style, i'd love to learn anything about that, and to listen to good examples.

It ain't organ, but it sounds to me like you need to get the entire Hyperion Bach Transcription series (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/s.asp?s=S_16&vw=dc)! :-)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 18, 2013, 07:41:41 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 18, 2013, 07:05:22 AM
It ain't organ, but it sounds to me like you need to get the entire Hyperion Bach Transcription series (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/s.asp?s=S_16&vw=dc)! :-)

No Liszt?! Oh please, i'm a completist! 8)   (Actually, my university library has most of the Hyperion complete Liszt, so i know it's in there.)

And then there's Stokowski...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 19, 2013, 02:49:26 AM
Quote from: alyosha on May 18, 2013, 07:00:17 AM
I know i've raised quite a few issues and questions (and there's more coming :o ) -- please allow me to bump the question re Bach organ pre-HIP.

In response to some comments, i was going to expand on and in a sense defend the question -- but that's mostly a waste since the point is i'm uninformed, am mostly assuming that what happened with other Bach happened in a roughly analogous way with organ, plus going on bits and pieces i've run across. It seems that others could give a much better answer.

I will offer that i've been reading about the organ reform movement etc, but since uses of the organ varied so widely this doesn't give me any clear idea of how Bach was interpreted. Also: if the question is unclear because in some places, say Germany and the Netherlands, things didn't drift so far as they did elsewhere, well that in itself would be very helpful to know.

Still, assuming that there was romanticized and otherwise pre-HIP Bach style, i'd love to learn anything about that, and to listen to good examples.

Well, just thinking of French organists for a moment, I don't think I've heard anything earlier than Vierne's Bach recordings. André Marchal on Arbiter sounds very different. Someone once said to me that Marchal was is an important figure in the history of all of this, in that he broke away from a style where the emphasis was more on blending the voices than on making them clear.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 20, 2013, 08:50:58 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 20, 2009, 02:00:53 PM
Well, I know 32 organ recordings of the AoF, and I would call none of them dionysian.

So what would it be to be dionysian? I think it would be to prioritise the music as a vehicle for emotional expression, even if that means underplaying the formal characteristics. I'm not sure how that relates to ideas I think I've seen in your posts here, about how the music played properly will reveal its emotional content.

I think Kei Koito's record may be like this, but that's from memory and it's going to be three weeks before I'm back in London to hear it again.

By the way I was prompted to think about this ancient discussion when listening to Opfer recordings, contrasting the way Harnoncourt + Tachezi  play it (Apollonian) with The Schonnbrunn Ensemble +  Menno Van Delft. Also thinking about what  organists like Schweitzer were up to.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 20, 2013, 12:54:01 PM
Re Art of Fugue:

Quote from: Mandryka on May 20, 2013, 08:50:58 AM
So what would it be to be dionysian?

One organ AoF i happen to know is Gould's, from my my big phase of him almost, gosh, 3 decades ago. Not at all dionysian qua bacchanalian; nor do i think most would say re emotional expression. But you could make a case for it being mildly dionysian qua playful, childlike in a good way.

Or not. You have to screw on your "Gould ears", if you even own a pair. And i would understand people seeing this as his idiosyncratic version of apollonian. Or worse...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 21, 2013, 03:09:10 AM
I won't be able to listen to Gould's organ AoF till I'm back in London, but from what I remember GG put a huge amount of value on clarity. Voices are kept very dictinct, rarely if ever blended. Same for beats.

The result is that you know all the time that you're listening to something pretty clever and complicated. I guess Gould thought that Bach's main genius was about counterpoint, or at best about the balance of counterpoint and feeling, and that explains his way of playing the music.

So if that's right, it's not quite dionysian, because the heart, the emotional content, is kept in check by the head, the formal content.

As I said, that's just my memory. And I'm aware that GG changed his style towards the end of his life - I'm not sure whether there are any live organ recordings of AoF.

For what it's worth, I adore the piano records he made of the cpti from the end of Art of Fugue, including the unfinished one.

While thinking about this issue, it crossed my mind that it's such a shame that Blandine Verlet never tackled Art of Fugue. Another regret is that Harnoncourt didn't tackle it, or at least that he didn't tackle it in a more uncompromising frame of mind than I hear in his Opfer. What I would like is a performance which exemplifies this famous idea from Baroque Music Today

Quote

This leads to a further consideration. In oil paintings using glazes, the paint is transparent; we can see through ne layer to the next, so that we look through four or five layers to the drawing that lies beneath them. Something similar happens when we listen to a well-articulated piece of music. Our ears penetrate it in depth and we clearly hear the different levels, which nonetheless merge to form a whole. On the foundation level we hear the 'design', the plan; on another level we find accented dissonances; in the next, a voice which is softly slurred in its diction, and another which is strongly articulated. All of this is at the same time, synchronized. The listener is not able to comprehend everything contained in the piece at once, but wanders through the various levels of the piece, always hearing something different. This multi-layered concept is extremely important for understanding this music. It is almost never satisfied with a mere two-dimensional approach.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 21, 2013, 10:49:01 AM
@Mandryka re Gould: Well put and well taken re his organ and piano. I thought it would be fun to make a case, but he's not what you're looking for, incl re that nice quote. Looking into it a bit just now, i was reminded of GG's early organ study, and learned that that's what he played in his first public performance.

Please keep us posted re your findings. AoF, as with so many masterpieces, has different sides that can be emphasized in different proportions, or even "over"-emphasized but in a way that is musical and revealing. Yet to my ears and my typical listening interest, it often is too much of either -- put in the extreme for fun and brevity -- something like, "the great exercise in fugal technique", or "self-written epitaph of the dying master of a dying art and age". Ok, just to be sure i don't offend: the first can be fascinating, exciting, insightful, etc; and the second can be reverent, mournful or anyway melancholy, and BTW romanticism can work quite well to bring those out.

I'm not sure how well that fits with your search for "dionysian" -- and the one that pops to the front of my mind isn't on organ -- but again, i'm looking forward to what you discover.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 22, 2013, 03:23:26 AM
That quote from Harnoncourt did two things for me. On the one hand it made it really clear what the expressive possibilities are in multi-voiced music. You can make interpretive choices, from blended to transparent, from synchonised to various degrees of staggardness. This is familiar stuff.

But what I like most of all about what Harnoncourt says is the idea that a good performance won't try to push everything in your face all at once. All the voices are equally important, but the texture is so rich that you can't get everything that's going on at one time. So listening is like wondering through a complicated region. Listening is a sort of flânerie. i think that's a really really exciting idea.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 22, 2013, 12:24:36 PM
Mandryka: Dionysian or Bacchant (NB not Bach-ant :)) , well Dionysos was the God of wine and ecstasy, so when I think of Dionysian music, I imagine some playful and dancing music, and I do not recall any Organ recording of the Art of Fugue, about which this is true - only a few ensemble versions, Alessandrini jumps to my mind.

Alyosha: As to pre-HIP Bach style I have never been much interested in the romantic way of Bach interpretation. The organ movement changed the view upon Bach´s organ works, but the almost continual legato playing and the changing registrations often aiming at some climatic effect persisted. The romantic rubato was discarded and instead the tempo became more regular. The Leipzig school represents this style well, and the Berlin Classics box with Bach on Silbermann organs contains many recordings of this kind.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 22, 2013, 11:06:17 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 22, 2013, 12:24:36 PM
Mandryka: Dionysian or Bacchant (NB not Bach-ant :)) , well Dionysos was the God of wine and ecstasy, so when I think of Dionysian music, I imagine some playful and dancing music, and I do not recall any Organ recording of the Art of Fugue, about which this is true - only a few ensemble versions, Alessandrini jumps to my mind.

Oh, hardly playful and dancing. Agave tore Petheus to pieces in Euripades's play. For me it's about the balance, or rather the lack of balance, between form and feeling.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 23, 2013, 07:00:36 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 22, 2013, 11:06:17 PM
Oh, hardly playful and dancing. Agave tore Petheus to pieces in Euripades's play. For me it's about the balance, or rather the lack of balance, between form and feeling.

Not in my book. I consider Euripides´ play a special case.

My dictionary says: dionysian = festive and licentious. And I consider dancing an integrated part of a dionysian orgy, but not every orgy needs to degenerate into tragedy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 24, 2013, 12:18:53 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 23, 2013, 07:00:36 AM
Not in my book. I consider Euripides´ play a special case.

My dictionary says: dionysian = festive and licentious. And I consider dancing an integrated part of a dionysian orgy, but not every orgy needs to degenerate into tragedy.

Well maybe, I can't argue. I gave up reading Greek when I was 21, and since then I've been a dilettante at best.

But there's something I'd like to mention here about my own musical taste. I very much like it when the music feels as though it's about to fall apart, when the music feels as though it's becoming chaotic,  and yet somehow the strength of the performer saves it. That feeling of living with rupture, of being with breakdown of order, is something which I think of as Dionysus.

I managed to get a very poor set of mp3 downloads of Kei Koito's Art of Fugue here in France, and I do think that sometimes, not always, in some of the cpti, she gets this feeling. The textures become so complex, because of agogics, staggering, registrations, etc, it's too much to take in and you feel that the whole thing is going to reduce to chaotic noise. But it doesn't, she saves it.

I've been having a good time with Art of Fugue recently. Not just Koito but also Moroney 2, which is much more Apollonian :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 25, 2013, 06:46:17 AM
@Mandryka: Your comments on the Harnoncourt quote are very interesting to me and bring up many issues re what music is, how we experience and understand and enjoy and learn about it, what is and what is going on in an interpretation/performance, etc. But i will control myself, excited yet still getting the feel of the forum. But i can't resist a bit of OT re Bach organ, after:

Quote from: Mandryka on May 24, 2013, 12:18:53 AM
But there's something I'd like to mention here about my own musical taste. I very much like it when the music feels as though it's about to fall apart, when the music feels as though it's becoming chaotic,  and yet somehow the strength of the performer saves it. That feeling of living with rupture, of being with breakdown of order, is something which I think of as Dionysus.

This helps a lot, and again is interesting in different directions. For sure that is not Gould. The one performer i know well who seems to fit is on my shortlist of "idiosyncratics", the guitarist Eliot Fisk. He's quite controversial: some call him sloppy or worse; on the other hand he's spoken very helpfully, in my view, about the excessive concern with polish over risk-taking and spontaneous expression. I don't take him as the model for everyone, but i'm enthusiastic about having him in the mix. He transcribes and performs a lot of baroque, but i'm not aware of an AoF. Maybe we should circulate a petition -- with him i'd think we have a better than typical chance...  ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 25, 2013, 06:58:23 AM
One immediate goal i've had in joining this thread has been to find a reasonably complete Bach organ set to serve as the focus of my return and explorations. I already had a couple, and have access to the Naxos music library, and have been buying while reading the thread and will continue...$$$... Now i'd like to put out a celebratory thanks because i believe i've fallen in love with the latest Kooiman et al set. [Edit: Special thanks to premont for bumping the set in response to my questions.] Not surprising given my focus on rhythm; and i adore the sound of the organs. There's a lot i could say but i want to keep this short. And express my thanks with what might be helpful news.

I was looking for downloads (i prefer files to plastic), and i discovered this:
http://www.qobuz.com/album/johann-sebastian-bach-oeuvres-pour-orgue-integrale/4026798107611 (http://www.qobuz.com/album/johann-sebastian-bach-oeuvres-pour-orgue-integrale/4026798107611)
There are decent-length samples of all tracks, which is what helped put me over the line, vs my admittedly limited exploration of the label's admittedly limited website. Also note that it's available a bit cheaper [edit: pun not intended!] in merely CD-quality sound. Again, fine for me; in fact i'm not afraid of a little lossy compression ??? -- i'm not trolling, honest! 0:)

I should say that on the forum where i heard about the link, another poster said something about it not being available internationally. With a sprinkling of my almost entirely forgotten french, i've written them to check.

Thanks again, so much, to everyone.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 25, 2013, 12:36:36 PM
Quote from: alyosha on May 25, 2013, 06:58:23 AM
One immediate goal i've had in joining this thread has been to find a reasonably complete Bach organ set to serve as the focus of my return and explorations. I already had a couple, and have access to the Naxos music library, and have been buying while reading the thread and will continue...$$$... Now i'd like to put out a celebratory thanks because i believe i've fallen in love with the latest Kooiman et al set. Not surprising given my focus on rhythm; and i adore the sound of the organs. There's a lot i could say but i want to keep this short. And express my thanks with what might be helpful news. [....]

I like this Kooiman & pupils boxset very much: good choice! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 25, 2013, 11:24:44 PM
The reason I didn't get it is that, as far as I could see, most of the music I'm interetsted in right now isn't played by Kooiman. And though I can hear that Kooiman is a good musician I don't know anything about the others. I'm thinking of Leipzig Chorales, Orgelbuchlein, Clavier Ubung 3, Trio Sonatas, Art of Fugue.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 25, 2013, 11:48:54 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 25, 2013, 11:24:44 PM
The reason I didn't get it is that, as far as I could see, most of the music I'm interetsted in right now isn't played by Kooiman. And though I can hear that Kooiman is a good musician I don't know anything about the others. I'm thinking of Leipzig Chorales, Orgelbuchlein, Clavier Ubung 3, Trio Sonatas, Art of Fugue.

In this box Kooiman plays the Leipzig chorales and half of the Orgelbüchlein. AoF is not included in the box.

It is true, that most of the "great" works are played by the pupils, but they are very good and particularly loyal to his performing style.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 26, 2013, 01:58:42 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 25, 2013, 11:24:44 PM
The reason I didn't get it is that, as far as I could see, most of the music I'm interetsted in right now isn't played by Kooiman. And though I can hear that Kooiman is a good musician I don't know anything about the others. I'm thinking of Leipzig Chorales, Orgelbuchlein, Clavier Ubung 3, Trio Sonatas, Art of Fugue.

Mandryka, let this be of comfort: no one will force you to buy it!

;)

But .... yes, I agree with mr. Premont: the pupils are very good, too, without 'copybooking' their teacher. From my 'hip hop' listening experiences so far, I would probably say that Bernhard Klapprott is the most individual one, Gerhard Gnann the most straightforward, with Ute Gremmel-Geuchen as the Golden Mean.
The only real 'minus' for the box is that in the booklet, even though there are complete stoplists for the instruments, no registrations are mentioned.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2013, 02:32:05 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 25, 2013, 11:48:54 PM
In this box Kooiman plays the Leipzig chorales and half of the Orgelbüchlein. AoF is not included in the box.

It is true, that most of the "great" works are played by the pupils, but they are very good and particularly loyal to his performing style.

I didn't know that he played the Leipzig chorales there, my mistake, i'll try to hear that.

Quote from: Marc on May 26, 2013, 01:58:42 AM
Mandryka, let this be of comfort: no one will force you to buy it!

;)

But .... yes, I agree with mr. Premont: the pupils are very good, too, without 'copybooking' their teacher. From my 'hip hop' listening experiences so far, I would probably say that Bernhard Klapprott is the most individual one, Gerhard Gnann the most straightforward, with Ute Gremmel-Geuchen as the Golden Mean.
The only real 'minus' for the box is that in the booklet, even though there are complete stoplists for the instruments, no registrations are mentioned.

Is this because registration is a sort of secret formula which organists are unwilling to divulge, like a pork butcher might have a secret spice mixture for his sausages?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 26, 2013, 03:06:35 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2013, 02:32:05 AM
Is this because registration is a sort of secret formula which organists are unwilling to divulge, like a pork butcher might have a secret spice mixture for his sausages?

Dunno.
There are many international organ productions without such a list. Pity really.
But in this particular case I was a bit surprised, because I have many other Kooiman recordings with complete registration lists. He wasn't known to hide his 'secrets', he was a musician and scholar who wanted to share.
Mind you: I have the feeling that this 'sharing' thing is quite normal in the Dutch organ world, because many Dutch organ productions, on small 'domestic' labels, have complete registration lists. Personally, being a layman, I rarely use those lists whilst listening, but there are moments when I think hey, this sounds great, what's this?. In those cases, I think it's a great service to have them available. And of course it's a nice way to learn more about the instrument(s).
I also have the idea, after some personal blabbering with Dutch organists and 'real' connaisseurs and organ lovers, that to them it's almost a necessity that these lists are included.

Then again, Aeolus isn't a small Dutch label.

And perhaps Kooiman's German students are more protective towards their secrets. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 26, 2013, 03:53:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2013, 02:32:05 AM
Is this because registration is a sort of secret formula which organists are unwilling to divulge, like a pork butcher might have a secret spice mixture for his sausages?

In the preauthentic "age" registration lists were rare, but along with the growing scholarship of the organists such lists have become more common, and is now an almost mandatory part of the documentation of a recording.

Helmut Walcha never published his registrations. He said, that other organists might misunderstand his intentions and put too much authority in them.

Some of the first to publish their registrations were Lionel Rogg (true already of his first Bach set 1962) and Marie Claire Alain (complete registration list in the notes to the original LP release of her second Bach integral from 1975 - 78).  Also Anton Heiller published some of his registrations in the 1970es.

And I find it most disappointing that the Aeolus booklet doesn´t include a list of the used registrations, as much more as the set partially has been advertised as a kind of PR for the Andreas - and Johann Andreas Silbermann organs.

I have put the question in the Aeolus forum. Interesting if I get an answer. Last time I put a question there, I didn´t.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 27, 2013, 11:35:21 PM
Just returning a moment to the question of rubato on the organ, this recording has a couple of transcriptions for harpsichord of organ preludes, BWV 626 and 729

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Cates-K01%5BWildboar%5D.jpg)

He plays them with rather more flexible rubato than I remember hearing on an organ performance, though I don't have much of my music collection with me to check - it just so happens that I have the Cates CD. I thought it was interesting to see how a performer who is allegedly interetsted in period performance ideas would approach the transcription to an instrument with less sustaining power. I've only ever heard organ transcriptions played on piano before, and that more often as not by musicians who don't much interest themselvesn HIP.

Cates doesn't seem to be active in the recording studio  any more, as far as I can see. His blog is interesting and very active, well worth checking out ( http://davidcatesblog.wordpress.com/ ) It would have been interesting to hear how he plays the organ.

It's interesting how, on his blog, Cates singles out Mieczyslaw Horszowski for praise. I've seen an Italian harpsichordist do the same, either Messori or Vartolo, I can't remember.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on May 28, 2013, 06:17:28 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 26, 2013, 03:53:14 AM
In the preauthentic "age" registration lists were rare, but along with the growing scholarship of the organists such lists have become more common, and is now an almost mandatory part of the documentation of a recording.

Helmut Walcha never published his registrations. He said, that other organists might misunderstand his intentions and put too much authority in them.

Some of the first to publish their registrations were Lionel Rogg (true already of his first Bach set 1962) and Marie Claire Alain (complete registration list in the notes to the original LP release of her second Bach integral from 1975 - 78).  Also Anton Heiller published some of his registrations in the 1970es.

And I find it most disappointing that the Aeolus booklet doesn´t include a list of the used registrations, as much more as the set partially has been advertised as a kind of PR for the Andreas - and Johann Andreas Silbermann organs.

I have put the question in the Aeolus forum. Interesting if I get an answer. Last time I put a question there, I didn´t.

Foccroulle's recording of the Art of Fugue, which I received today, contains a listing of the registrations used for each contrapunctus.  in contrast to the box of the Complete Organ Works (also arrived today), which only lists only what organs were used to record which works.

Parenthetically,  I've a problem with my copy of the complete works---a duplicate copy of CD 10 was inserted in place of CD 5.   I immediately sent up a flare to Prestoclassical, from whom I got the set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 28, 2013, 09:37:16 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 26, 2013, 03:06:35 AM
[...] Personally, being a layman, I rarely use those lists whilst listening, but there are moments when I think hey, this sounds great, what's this?. In those cases, I think it's a great service to have them available. And of course it's a nice way to learn more about the instrument(s).

I'm not finding the time i wish i could just now. But i'm about done reading some very intro materials on the stops. And i've separated out some recent acquisitions that have this registration info, so that, starting with the movements with the fewest stops, i can learn how they sound...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 28, 2013, 09:45:58 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 27, 2013, 11:35:21 PM
Just returning a moment to the question of rubato on the organ, this recording has a couple of transcriptions for harpsichord of organ preludes, BWV 626 and 729

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Cates-K01%5BWildboar%5D.jpg)

He plays them with rather more flexible rubato than I remember hearing on an organ performance, though I don't have much of my music collection with me to check - it just so happens that I have the Cates CD. I thought it was interesting to see how a performer who is allegedly interetsted in period performance ideas would approach the transcription to an instrument with less sustaining power. I've only ever heard organ transcriptions played on piano before, and that more often as not by musicians who don't much interest themselvesn HIP.

Cates doesn't seem to be active in the recording studio  any more, as far as I can see. His blog is interesting and very active, well worth checking out ( http://davidcatesblog.wordpress.com/ (http://davidcatesblog.wordpress.com/) ) It would have been interesting to hear how he plays the organ. [...]

Thanks so much: The samples i was able to find were excellent, though none of the organ pieces. (Listening again at Amazon as i type.)

His blog is headed as i check with a post on "Fluidity", which in the [edit: second] sentence gets right into "subtle flexibility in the forward motion, not absolutely metronomic but rather a pulse that has the slightest bit of ebb and flow as breathing does."

And yes, always interesting to check the same performer on both instruments.

My sense is that playing pieces more clearly intended for harpsichord (or string keyboard) on organ is the trickier way to go. Many of these pieces rely on fast decay or anyway the relative predominance of attack to show the way through thick textures, which sustained on organ can become muddled. I have other ideas, but i know i'm being tempted out of my depth re organ...

As to the HIPness of transcriptions: I mentioned having a "broad" view of HIP, and one major breadth is openness to new transcriptions / instrument choices. I view that as HIP in the context of the lively transcription culture throughout the baroque generally; and of course Bach was all about it! He gives us a wealth of both support for transcription, and indications of when and how he felt it called for much change to the music. Again i'm tempted to get on a roll... Let me just step OT for a second and mention a recent acquisition that's a big favorite: Nigel North's to-me magnificent lute renditions of the complete solo music for violin and cello: http://www.linnrecords.com/collection-bach-on-the-lute-box-set.aspx (http://www.linnrecords.com/collection-bach-on-the-lute-box-set.aspx) Note that the site includes the "liner notes" justifying the transcriptions.

Back to organ: @ Jeffrey Smith, and thence @ Marc and premont: I checked out Prestoclassical, searched on Bach organ, and quickly came to this set of "organ" trio sonatas arranged for chamber group: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Channel/CCSSA27012 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Channel/CCSSA27012) Note there's nice-length samples of all movements, extra-nice because they start at the track beginnings (listening now to this). My super-subjective reaction, re this thread: Very nicely played, and not going back on my broad HIP; but predominantly because i'm in a huge phase, i really would prefer to hear them on organ. 8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 29, 2013, 08:03:37 PM
Simple(?) question about the baroque organ as instrument: Can i safely assume that a restored-to-baroque organ has some kind of "well" but non-equal temperament? This is generally not mentioned in the liner notes i've been looking at. We've talked about registrations; they also seem to frequently mention the organ's pitch. This is natural [oo!, pun not intended! :P ] since the range and often sharpness of baroque organ pitch is unusual vs other instruments. I can't help but think of my clear impression that temperament (and to a lesser extent pitch) is mentioned much less often re stringed keyboard instruments than it was during the first popular wave of HIP ~30 years ago.

Sub-question, more clueless/speculative: I wonder if such baroque temperaments can be assumed in restored organs partly because, even if they were tuned equal at the time of renovation many decades ago, the temperament would have been adjusted since. ? The thing is, i know tuning an organ is a major job, but i don't know where "tuning" becomes "renovation". I'm guessing that going from equal to well with the same standard pitch could be within the range of "tuning", or not too much more.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2013, 09:17:03 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 28, 2013, 06:17:28 PM
Foccroulle's recording of the Art of Fugue, which I received today, contains a listing of the registrations used for each contrapunctus.  in contrast to the box of the Complete Organ Works (also arrived today), which only lists only what organs were used to record which works.

I own a small number of the original Ricercare releases of Foccroulle´s Bach organ set, and in the booklet´s contain complete listings of the organs´ dispositions and the registrations used. But as it often happens this information was not included in the rereleases.

The original release (LP) of the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt Bach sacred cantatas contained information about every instrumentalist, but this information was alas lost in the CD rerelease.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2013, 10:13:14 AM
Quote from: alyosha on May 28, 2013, 09:45:58 PM
His blog is headed as i check with a post on "Fluidity", which in the sentence gets right into "subtle flexibility in the forward motion, not absolutely metronomic but rather a pulse that has the slightest bit of ebb and flow as breathing does."
I only know Cates from his recording of the French suites. It seems to me, that his nice theories work better, than what we hear when he is playing.

Quote from: alyosha
My sense is that playing pieces more clearly intended for harpsichord (or string keyboard) on organ is the trickier way to go. Many of these pieces rely on fast decay or anyway the relative predominance of attack to show the way through thick textures, which sustained on organ can become muddled. I have other ideas, but i know i'm being tempted out of my depth re organ...

Which specific harpsichord works (by Bach) do you think of. In my opinion almost all his so-called harpsichord works can be played on the organ to great effect, except maybe works where arpeggio playing is of importance (f.i. Chromatic Fantasy, the short prelude to the a-minor fugue BWV 944 and the prelude in b-minor BWV 923).

Quote from: alyosha
As to the HIPness of transcriptions: I mentioned having a "broad" view of HIP, and one major breadth is openness to new transcriptions / instrument choices. I view that as HIP in the context of the lively transcription culture throughout the baroque generally; and of course Bach was all about it! He gives us a wealth of both support for transcription, and indications of when and how he felt it called for much change to the music. Again i'm tempted to get on a roll... Let me just step OT for a second and mention a recent acquisition that's a big favorite: Nigel North's to-me magnificent lute renditions of the complete solo music for violin and cello: http://www.linnrecords.com/collection-bach-on-the-lute-box-set.aspx (http://www.linnrecords.com/collection-bach-on-the-lute-box-set.aspx) Note that the site includes the "liner notes" justifying the transcriptions.

Agree, North is also my favorite lute player.

Quote from: alyosha
Back to organ: @ Jeffrey Smith, and thence @ Marc and premont: I checked out Prestoclassical, searched on Bach organ, and quickly came to this set of "organ" trio sonatas arranged for chamber group: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Channel/CCSSA27012 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Channel/CCSSA27012) Note there's nice-length samples of all movements, extra-nice because they start at the track beginnings (listening now to this). My super-subjective reaction, re this thread: Very nicely played, and not going back on my broad HIP; but predominantly because i'm in a huge phase, i really would prefer to hear them on organ. 8)

Florilegium´s triosonatas are IMO a bit fuzzy concerning the instrumentation. I think the recordings by London Baroque (scored for violin, violin(viola) and continuo) and Brook Street Band (two violins and continuo) work better.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 30, 2013, 10:29:03 AM
Quote from: alyosha on May 29, 2013, 08:03:37 PM
Simple(?) question about the baroque organ as instrument: Can i safely assume that a restored-to-baroque organ has some kind of "well" but non-equal temperament? This is generally not mentioned in the liner notes i've been looking at. We've talked about registrations; they also seem to frequently mention the organ's pitch. This is natural [oo!, pun not intended! :P ] since the range and often sharpness of baroque organ pitch is unusual vs other instruments. I can't help but think of my clear impression that temperament (and to a lesser extent pitch) is mentioned much less often re stringed keyboard instruments than it was during the first popular wave of HIP ~30 years ago.

No, you can not assume that a restored baroque organ isn´t  tuned equal. . F.i. the Hagebeer/F C Schnitger organ in St. Laurenskerk, Alkmaar is tuned equal - a consequence of its restoring to the state of 1725, where F C Schnitger had it tuned equally. It is often very difficult to get detailled information about these matters, and when in doubt you have to rely upon your ear.

And even the most HIP oriented organists have recorded Bach on equally tuned organs (Weinberger, Kooiman e.g.).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on May 30, 2013, 12:49:42 PM
Quote from: alyosha on May 28, 2013, 09:45:58 PM
My sense is that playing pieces more clearly intended for harpsichord (or string keyboard) on organ is the trickier way to go. Many of these pieces rely on fast decay or anyway the relative predominance of attack to show the way through thick textures, which sustained on organ can become muddled. I have other ideas, but i know i'm being tempted out of my depth re organ...

Quote from: (: premont :) on May 30, 2013, 10:13:14 AM
Which specific harpsichord works (by Bach) do you think of. In my opinion almost all his so-called harpsichord works can be played on the organ to great effect, except maybe works where arpeggio playing is of importance (f.i. Chromatic Fantasy, the short prelude to the a-minor fugue BWV 944 and the prelude in b-minor BWV 923).

Oh i agree with how you put it. My basic point was that string-keyboard->organ is tricky-er than organ->string; not at all that it couldn't be done, and done beautifully.

And touche: my use of "many" in "many of these pieces" could have implied more frequent problems than is the case. Perhaps "many" pieces have moments that are troublesome, but work fine overall. And I know that HIPology has shown less separation or strict assignment, or caring by anyone at the time, than was for a long time believed -- tho that also varies with the piece.

Re types of more serious difficulties: arpeggios, yes, and chords (simultaneous, rolled). But it gets much harder when you add dissonance; that's where the separation really helps the ear. (A challenge rather lacking in the Goldbergs, for example.) So i'd say the Clavier-Ubung I partitas are less organ-friendly territory, especially the more chordal minor intros and sarabandes. The sarabande of the 6th/E-minor/BWV830 was what popped immediately to mind when i read your question.

To be more general about transcription* for a moment (* i need a better term for what we're talking about here -- forgive the shorthand): It's one thing for it to be "tricky" to achieve a musical [edit: i meant pleasing, expressive, etc] result. It's another kind of tricky to convey a -- how shall i say it? -- transcribed version of the original feeling, as for example i would say our buddy North generally does in that set. This as opposed to a sense of: same notes + different instrument = ~new piece.  (Again with the shorthand...) And a "new piece" is fine! So i welcome usually-string-keyboard performances on organ, let me be clear! Whether it be on the "Broad HIP" or postmodern end of my dumbbell... 8)

All of which brings up another challenge for string->organ that may be as important but is harder to define/defend: moments where it seems the effect relies on the decay. (My mind being stuck on CUI, and wanting a "pure" example without chords/dissonance, i think first of the opening motif of the sarabande of the 4th/D-major/828.) It may be a sense of meditation, or savoring, spaciousness, hesitation/uncertainty/questioning, sadness, holding the tension but not as starkly as full sustain -- here we get into deep waters of interpretation, both in performance and in listening. But perhaps you'll agree that there are many non-rare ;) moments like this which may be quite movingly playable on organ, but with a distinct change of the feeling conveyed...

(Later in composing this post, i reflected and could hardly remember hearing CUI on organ. A quick search turned up a couple, the most web-sample-able of which was this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008WU275Q/ (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008WU275Q/)
http://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-sechs-partiten-mw0002398723 (http://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-sechs-partiten-mw0002398723)
Perhaps the approach is biased in my favor, but i think there's plenty of material here to make both of our points. :) )
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 31, 2013, 09:59:58 AM
What you say about dissonance is interesting.

I have two organ records of AoF with me at the moment, Koito and Walcha. Walcha is less dissonant and more transparent. Koito is texturally varied, thick blended dissonant passages and pretty transparent passages too.

In terms of authenticity I don't know what to think. Maybe complex opaque passages are part of the meaning of fugues. Like little mysteries which we struggle to get our minds round.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on June 03, 2013, 12:44:07 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 30, 2013, 10:29:03 AM
No, you can not assume that a restored baroque organ isn´t  tuned equal. . F.i. the Hagebeer/F C Schnitger organ in St. Laurenskerk, Alkmaar is tuned equal - a consequence of its restoring to the state of 1725, where F C Schnitger had it tuned equally. It is often very difficult to get detailled information about these matters, and when in doubt you have to rely upon your ear.

And even the most HIP oriented organists have recorded Bach on equally tuned organs (Weinberger, Kooiman e.g.).

Thanks so much; and semi-apology for not finding -- or actually i think remembering, from all the GMG reading i've done in recent months -- this:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21168.msg680744.html#msg680744 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21168.msg680744.html#msg680744)
-- Though this doesn't directly address temperament as part of the HIP package...

And did you never follow up on
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 15, 2012, 10:21:21 AM
Part two of my post will be the listing of some examples of Bach organ recordings on instruments tuned unequally.
?? I and maybe others would be very interested! :)

After all i've seen so far at this early stage for me, i'm still curious re HIP. I don't think there's been discussion of temperament in this thread, to match the at times scholarly detailed concern with other aspects of the instruments. And there's controversy about temperament, including Bach's preferences (at different times?) and the instruments he had to play on. But assuming sufficient well-vs-equal preference/practice by at least the earlier Bach, i ask the thread:
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on June 03, 2013, 01:01:47 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 18, 2009, 06:10:19 AM
Knud Vad is a pupil of Anton Heiller and contemporary with Wolfgang Stockmeier and Peter Hurford, and his interpretation is - like theirs - marked by the transition period from "preauthentic" to "authentic" style, which is to say, that his style is not completely up to the informed style we are used to to day. He has f.ex.got an inclination for legato touch, and there are some unnecessary changes of registration first and foremost in the choral free works. [...]

I ask in part to assemble my list and history. But also because he was the main performer whose recordings i listened to as a child -- with MC Alain next in number. For nostalgic fun, these were the two i found in my stepfather's collection that started it all:

(http://www.recordsbymail.com/uploads/9-7-12-LPs/466906.JPG)

(http://dnok91peocsw3.cloudfront.net/inspiration/266105-612x612-1.png)

The second rather psychedelic cover i duplicated with tracing paper and posted on my bedroom door...

Anyway, there hasn't been much discussion of him here, and obviously i'm curious.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 04, 2013, 04:20:39 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 30, 2013, 10:13:14 AM
I only know Cates from his recording of the French suites. It seems to me, that his nice theories work better, than what we hear when he is playing.



Too romantic for you? In some of the slower movements in those suites he's not unwilling to slow down and speed up, to create tension I suppose. Not too different from Furtwangler and Mengelberg in that respect, maybe.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on June 05, 2013, 08:05:21 AM
Quote from: alyosha on May 28, 2013, 09:45:58 PM
His blog is headed as i check with a post on "Fluidity", which in the [edit: second] sentence gets right into "subtle flexibility in the forward motion, not absolutely metronomic but rather a pulse that has the slightest bit of ebb and flow as breathing does."

Quote from: (: premont :) on May 30, 2013, 10:13:14 AM
I only know Cates from his recording of the French suites. It seems to me, that his nice theories work better, than what we hear when he is playing.

Quote from: Mandryka on June 04, 2013, 04:20:39 AM
Too romantic for you? In some of the slower movements in those suites he's not unwilling to slow down and speed up, to create tension I suppose. Not too different from Furtwangler and Mengelberg in that respect, maybe.

I liked the excerpts i was able to find on the web -- and i should admit i'm quite the split personality re critical response: i can be quick to "objectively" appreciate, but often picky re my personal preferences.

@premont: Not sure what you mean re theory vs playing. Mandryka seems to have taken you to mean you find too much flexibility of rhythm/tempo. I heard some in the slower movements, for sure; but not so much in the mid/faster ones. So i could take you the other way, because i don't always hear as much as i hope to, reading that quote.

Some further thoughts about rhythmic flexibility, FWIW: I've already made it clear that i prize such flexibility (appropriate to HIP, or effective communication, or whatever the case may be). But perhaps i come across as prioritizing that more than i actually do. I'd have a similar reaction if there were many recordings with little change in dynamics, or re organ perhaps constant registration. The feeling is that one of the basic musical elements is being neglected, not that it's the main one. Leave out any of these elements and the music doesn't seem fully alive to me.

Now i should say: once it does feel present, then there's wide room for critique, and taste, etc. At least a little vs none is the biggest thing; it's not necessarily "more is always better".

...Ok, okaaay!; i sometimes can be like that when i'm frisky... >:D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 05, 2013, 11:31:31 AM
One thing I really love from the pont of the flexible approach to the timings of each voice is Rübsam's Naxos BWV 652 and (especially) 653 , Leipzig chorales. Somehow what he does, and I'm not quite sure I've worked out exactly what he's doing in fact, makes the music very very interesting and complicated sounding. It's this thing about fault lines being clearly shown and the slight feeling that they may slip, but they don't. The tempo sounds good to me too.

By the way, has anyone read this yet? i'm quite tempted by it since it's a kindle book and I like kindle. And I'd like to know a bit more about the music too.

(http://images.contentreserve.com/ImageType-100/1873-1/%7B11137AB4-F8A2-431B-AA0C-A2BF459A0FAD%7DImg100.jpg)]

Re Cates, what he does in the slower bits of the French suites seems quite different to what Rübsam does, or indeed to what anyone else does.I don't know how authentic all this flexibility is in Bach (as opposed to Frescobaldi say) , but the results seem pretty nice to me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on June 05, 2013, 11:44:40 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 05, 2013, 11:31:31 AM
Re Cates, what he does in the slower bits of the French suites seems quite different to what Rübsam does, or indeed to what anyone else does.I don't know how authentic all this flexibility is in Bach (as opposed to Frescobaldi say) , but the results seem pretty nice to me.

What Cates does is sometimes referred to as staggering the musical lines; to me, the results are compelling.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 05, 2013, 01:49:20 PM
Quote from: alyosha on May 30, 2013, 12:49:42 PM
Oh i agree with how you put it. My basic point was that string-keyboard->organ is tricky-er than organ->string; not at all that it couldn't be done, and done beautifully.

And touche: my use of "many" in "many of these pieces" could have implied more frequent problems than is the case. Perhaps "many" pieces have moments that are troublesome, but work fine overall. And I know that HIPology has shown less separation or strict assignment, or caring by anyone at the time, than was for a long time believed -- tho that also varies with the piece.

Re types of more serious difficulties: arpeggios, yes, and chords (simultaneous, rolled). But it gets much harder when you add dissonance; that's where the separation really helps the ear. (A challenge rather lacking in the Goldbergs, for example.) So i'd say the Clavier-Ubung I partitas are less organ-friendly territory, especially the more chordal minor intros and sarabandes. The sarabande of the 6th/E-minor/BWV830 was what popped immediately to mind when i read your question.

To be more general about transcription* for a moment (* i need a better term for what we're talking about here -- forgive the shorthand): It's one thing for it to be "tricky" to achieve a musical [edit: i meant pleasing, expressive, etc] result. It's another kind of tricky to convey a -- how shall i say it? -- transcribed version of the original feeling, as for example i would say our buddy North generally does in that set. This as opposed to a sense of: same notes + different instrument = ~new piece.  (Again with the shorthand...) And a "new piece" is fine! So i welcome usually-string-keyboard performances on organ, let me be clear! Whether it be on the "Broad HIP" or postmodern end of my dumbbell... 8)

All of which brings up another challenge for string->organ that may be as important but is harder to define/defend: moments where it seems the effect relies on the decay. (My mind being stuck on CUI, and wanting a "pure" example without chords/dissonance, i think first of the opening motif of the sarabande of the 4th/D-major/828.) It may be a sense of meditation, or savoring, spaciousness, hesitation/uncertainty/questioning, sadness, holding the tension but not as starkly as full sustain -- here we get into deep waters of interpretation, both in performance and in listening. But perhaps you'll agree that there are many non-rare ;) moments like this which may be quite movingly playable on organ, but with a distinct change of the feeling conveyed...

(Later in composing this post, i reflected and could hardly remember hearing CUI on organ. A quick search turned up a couple, the most web-sample-able of which was this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008WU275Q/ (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008WU275Q/)
http://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-sechs-partiten-mw0002398723 (http://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-sechs-partiten-mw0002398723)
Perhaps the approach is biased in my favor, but i think there's plenty of material here to make both of our points. :) )

It is evident, that the Partitas BWV 825 – 30 also may serve as examples of music, where many of the movements, due to the chordal writing and the implied arpeggio execution, cannot be played on organ without some change of the expression. The sarabande´s of  the Partitas one and six, the Grave of the Sinfonia of Partita two and the Toccata of Partita six are the most obvious examples. Bach himself arranged some of his music for other instruments adding notes or thinning out the texture depending on the context,  and somewhat changing the expression, - think of the harpsichord arrangement (BWV 1062) of the Largo, ma non troppo from BWV 1043, or the organ Triosonata arrangements from Triosonatas almost surely written for strings or at least for melody instruments, or think of the organ and harpsichord version of the supposed violin concerto BWV 1052x. or the organ version (BWV 539) of the Fugue from the violin sonata BWV 1001. Even if he may have made these arrangements  in the first hand for "practical" reasons, I do not think an organ rendering of music written more idiomatic  for harpsichord or other instruments should  be a bad thing, as it can be done "in baroque organ style" and may serve to broaden our view upon the music.  Having said that I do not think that these Partitas (because of their prevalent  two-part or three-part writing) should be played on a big organ with 16F plenum up to mixtures, but that only 8F and 4F principals and flutes should be used, registrations of a kind which also seem optimal for the Triosonatas. 

I do not quite understand your point about dissonance. Is dissonance harder to execute on an organ to great effect? Think of the g-minor Fantasy BWV 542.

We mentioned the rhythmic rubato somewhere above. It seems to me, that the notation of the first seven notes of the Toccata of the e-minor Partita (and similar passages) represents some kind of written-out rhythmic rubato. The notes should not be played metrically neither on harpsichord nor on organ, and the point is, that the first note steals a little time from the succeeding six notes. I also think, that the " groups of seven semiquavers in bar three and four (and similar passages) should be played in the same way.

Concerning the first two bars of the Sarabande of the D-major Partita and the tonal decay of the harpsichord:  On the organ you must release the last note (the high a) relative early to let the acoustics of the room (often a church) handle the decay, if you want to achieve a harpsichord-like effect , where this note so to say "hangs in the air".

I have not heard HansJörg Albrecht´s version of the Partitas, but shall acquire them all the same.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 05, 2013, 01:58:11 PM
Quote from: alyosha on June 03, 2013, 12:44:07 PM
How important to you is non-equal temperament to a "fully HIP" Bach organ instrument/performance?

It is not of vital importance, even if I much prefer a non-equal tuned organ. But a number of historical organs are tuned equal, whether original or fully restored, and a number of important organists have recorded Bach on equal tuned organs. So I have to accept this.

I suppose, that Bach when playing at recitals abroad in Germany, did not ask to get the organs completely retuned to serve his favorite tuning. This would have been completely ondoable.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 05, 2013, 02:02:24 PM
Quote from: alyosha on June 03, 2013, 01:01:47 PM

General question: Would you (or anyone ;D ) please offer other names (with or without other comments) that fit this transitional category?]

Specific question: Is E.Power Biggs another example?

Yes, Power Biggs (interestingly Power means Kraft in German) and also many organists of the Leipzig school (Berlin classisc box) including Karl Richter. Others are Heinz Wunderlich and Michael Schneider.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 05, 2013, 02:08:02 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 04, 2013, 04:20:39 AM
Too romantic for you? In some of the slower movements in those suites he's not unwilling to slow down and speed up, to create tension I suppose. Not too different from Furtwangler and Mengelberg in that respect, maybe.

No, not romantic but too free, making a casual impression. Rübsam is also very free, but I do not find that his rubato is casual. Both are probably within the limits of the style, even if we know very little about how much rubato was used at the time.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 05, 2013, 02:18:16 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on June 05, 2013, 12:18:13 PM
I am looking at the French Suites CD by David Cates and something that struck me as different is his insertion of a prelude from one of Bach's other works in the same key prior to each of suites.  Some come from the WTC others from elsewhere.

Is this typically done?  I've not seen it before, although I have far from an exhaustive experience with the French Suites..

Watchorn does, and he uses almost the same preludes. It is a strange idea to use precomposed and not ideally suited (pun not intended) preludes, where the preludes ought to be improvised.

However two of the preludes may claim a minimal degree of authenticity, if transmitted only in Bach-pupils autographs: The preludes to the fourth (free composition by anonymous) and the sixth French suite (the prelude to the E-major fugue from WTC book I).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on June 07, 2013, 12:46:03 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 05, 2013, 11:31:31 AM
One thing I really love from the pont of the flexible approach to the timings of each voice is Rübsam's Naxos BWV 652 and (especially) 653 , Leipzig chorales. Somehow what he does, and I'm not quite sure I've worked out exactly what he's doing in fact, makes the music very very interesting and complicated sounding. It's this thing about fault lines being clearly shown and the slight feeling that they may slip, but they don't. The tempo sounds good to me too.

Thanks so much for this. Rubsam continues to be a favorite on my non-HIP through "idiosyncratic" side. I'm able to listen to a great deal of his recordings on the naxos site, and i do see what you mean about those pieces.

I must say, though, that i'm emphasizing HIP while i get my bearings. (That's one of my pro-HIP arguments when it's up for debate: learning the "local language" as background for any other preferred style.)

I also like the range and pattern of issues you've raised throughout this thread -- they all interest me as well. So please keep posting pieces and recordings that strike you...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2013, 03:50:01 AM
Quote from: alyosha on June 07, 2013, 12:46:03 PM
Thanks so much for this. Rubsam continues to be a favorite on my non-HIP through "idiosyncratic" side. I'm able to listen to a great deal of his recordings on the naxos site, and i do see what you mean about those pieces.

I must say, though, that i'm emphasizing HIP while i get my bearings. (That's one of my pro-HIP arguments when it's up for debate: learning the "local language" as background for any other preferred style.)

I also like the range and pattern of issues you've raised throughout this thread -- they all interest me as well. So please keep posting pieces and recordings that strike you...

Well, you know that I don't find the HIP/nonHIP distinction particularly helpful, and the case of Rüsbam is a good illustration of why.  I suspect Rübsam would say that his style is as informed as anyone's.

For  what it's worth my own thinking about music was very much inspired by politics raher than history, especially the paper on Talking Politics in the Bach Year by Susan McClary, and the book on Noise by Jacques Attali.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2013, 03:56:31 AM
Quote from: Sammy on June 05, 2013, 11:44:40 AM
What Cates does is sometimes referred to as staggering the musical lines; to me, the results are compelling.

Ah yes, I remember now you talked about it in your review. Who else staggers as much as Cates?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on June 08, 2013, 07:07:01 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 05, 2013, 01:49:20 PM
I do not quite understand your point about dissonance. Is dissonance harder to execute on an organ to great effect? Think of the g-minor Fantasy BWV 542.

I apologize if i've been unclear. I'm bursting with questions and thoughts, and i'm trying not to blather on and take up too much space; so i edit myself heavily, sometimes it seems too heavily.

I was not at all saying "dissonance [is] harder to execute on an organ to great effect", and indeed you give a perfect example. I was referring only to a particular aspect of the instruments and a correspoding resource in composition and performance. My comments started and remain in the context of
Quote from: alyosha on May 28, 2013, 09:45:58 PM
My sense is that playing pieces more clearly intended for harpsichord (or string keyboard) on organ is the trickier way to go. Many of these pieces rely on fast decay or anyway the relative predominance of attack to show the way through thick textures, which sustained on organ can become muddled.

I'm only saying that between full sustain on organ at the one extreme, and notes cut off / non-overlapping at the other (i'll speak to hall reverberation in a moment), the large ratio of attack to sustain on harpsichord offers a middle range. And one specific technique making use of that is to stagger the onsets of the notes, so they can be heard both serially and in sustain. And in more dissonant cases this is especially helpful, both re the legibility of individual notes, and softening the harshness of dissonance. The theme here is a kind of having it both ways at once. This can of course be done in a way on the organ, but the attack/sustain balance is very different, and it's my belief that this matters a lot to the listener and the composer.

[Edit: It might help to add: I find this distinction quite significant even between harpsichord and the much more common modern piano versions...]

Re hall reverberation as a kind of instrumental sustain: This is just the kind of thing i'm having revelations about as i delve into organ music, so i extra- thank you for bringing it up and helping me to hear with fresh ears. Including how this can serve a similar attack/decay function. On the other hand it's probably obvious that it's not entirely comparable, especially because it's constant, in this context somewhat like a harpsichord with no dampers.

So i'm highlighting one option, one "advantage" the harpsichord (etc) has over the organ, and how it's especially helpful re dissonance. But there are many dis/advantages to both instruments, and we obviously agree that transcription translation between them is a welcome thing, and that it's fine and HIP to make appropriate changes to the score, etc. Changes made due to "trickiness" -- which i subjectively weigh as greater in one direction. If you disagree, and feel that both are about the same, or that organ->harpsichord is instead the trickier direction overall, i would accept that with interest and listen with fresh ears.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on June 08, 2013, 07:41:47 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 08, 2013, 03:50:01 AM
Well, you know that I don't find the HIP/nonHIP distinction particularly helpful, and the case of Rüsbam is a good illustration of why.  I suspect Rübsam would say that his style is as informed as anyone's.

Please take this in a respectful and playful spirit! But i will trust my lying ears over what a performer says. ;D I grew up on things like Isaac Stern playing Bach concerti with frantic vibrato in front of huge orchestras; and he could have taught a seminar about all the things he was doing differently, following the "composer's intent", than his interpretation of Brahms. Yet i remain unconfused that this is not what we call HIP. As i alluded to before: post- wide dissemination of HIP, and in the postmodern context, there will of course be all kinds of blends, which i welcome enthusiastically. But in my view the grey areas do not undermine the value of pointing out areas that are (pretty darn) black and white.

Quote from: Mandryka on June 08, 2013, 03:50:01 AM
For  what it's worth my own thinking about music was very much inspired by politics raher than history, especially the paper on Talking Politics in the Bach Year by Susan McClary, and the book on Noise by Jacques Attali.

Thank you -- i'm looking into both of those (in other tabs as i type). This is a realm that i'm familiar with, though not much in relation to classical music. These also, in a so-far vague and intuitive way, illuminate some of your other posts. Not to impose, but i would be very interested in any explicit connections you'd care to make between these ideas and say Bach, in direct response or whenever it comes up.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on June 08, 2013, 07:47:50 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 08, 2013, 03:56:31 AM
Who else staggers as much as Cates?

Robert Hill jumps to mind. He unfortunately does not do the French in the Hanssler set, but this should be close enough to compare playing styles:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005LE98E4/ (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005LE98E4/)
http://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-as-teacher-keyboard-works-from-the-c%C3%B6then-period-mw0001835346 (http://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-as-teacher-keyboard-works-from-the-c%C3%B6then-period-mw0001835346)
There's also a little French i saw on youtube. Tell us what you think! :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on June 08, 2013, 08:01:51 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 05, 2013, 01:49:20 PM
[...] I do not think that these Partitas (because of their prevalent  two-part or three-part writing) should be played on a big organ with 16F plenum up to mixtures, but that only 8F and 4F principals and flutes should be used, registrations of a kind which also seem optimal for the Triosonatas. 

It's out of the order i have on my mental list of questions, but now that you kind of bring it up...

I'm interested in hearing Bach organ (be the playing style HIP, not, grey, undefined, all of the above ;) ) with very simple registrations, such as you describe above. I mean, on pieces that aren't usually played that way, like the intros-and-fugues.

[Edit: One part of my interest, relating to posts just above, is in what would be kiiiind of an organ -> harpsichord/piano translation, played on organ! ??? ... :laugh: ]

Any ideas, anyone?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2013, 10:18:01 AM
Quote from: alyosha on June 08, 2013, 07:41:47 AM


Thank you -- i'm looking into both of those (in other tabs as i type). This is a realm that i'm familiar with, though not much in relation to classical music. These also, in a so-far vague and intuitive way, illuminate some of your other posts. Not to impose, but i would be very interested in any explicit connections you'd care to make between these ideas and say Bach, in direct response or whenever it comes up.

Well one  thought is that Bach was working with multiple traditions -- German, French and Italian. And these traditions brought with them very different social and  political associations -- German old style religiosity, pre-enlightenment; French tasteful formal court music; vigorous, highly forward driven, combat-style Italian concertos. You can see Bach as the great synthesis maker, creating highly stable order out of what seem like opposites. Or you could see his music as a less than stable amalgam of these incompatible, contradictory  traditions. Dissonance is about disorder. And to some extent so is the sort of agogics that I hear sometimes in Rubsam.

The important point is that the styles were meaningful philosophically, connected to ideas about the enlightenment, monarchy, the individual, society. And hence Bach's music was full of meaning.

And I guess I want to say that a good 21st century performance of a piece of Bach makes him our contemporary because it goes some way to  recapturing some of the original tension, some of the original spirit of putting things together which may not entirely cohere. I think Harnoncourt at his best goes some way to doing that, for example.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on June 08, 2013, 03:47:05 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 08, 2013, 03:56:31 AM
Ah yes, I remember now you talked about it in your review. Who else staggers as much as Cates?

If i remember correctly, Curtis in his French Suites set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on June 12, 2013, 06:12:27 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 08, 2013, 03:56:31 AM
Ah yes, I remember now you talked about it in your review. Who else staggers as much as Cates?

Quote from: Sammy on June 08, 2013, 03:47:05 PM
If i remember correctly, Curtis in his French Suites set.

When i suggested Hill, i was mostly interpreting "staggering of lines" to mean expressive non-synchrony. This would also seem to fit, AFAICT, with Mandryka's interest in music that risks falling apart but is held together by the performer (or composer?).

I like Curtis doing the French Suites, and i hear rubato, but pretty much all coherent and well under control, no chaos threatening...unfortunately. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on June 12, 2013, 06:24:38 AM
Quote from: alyosha on June 12, 2013, 06:12:27 AM
When i suggested Hill, i was mostly interpreting "staggering of lines" to mean expressive non-synchrony. This would also seem to fit, AFAICT, with Mandryka's interest in music that risks falling apart but is held together by the performer (or composer?).

I like Curtis doing the French Suites, and i hear rubato, but pretty much all coherent and well under control, no chaos threatening...unfortunately. ;)

How about Bradley Brookshire (for the French)?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on June 12, 2013, 08:15:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 08, 2013, 10:18:01 AM
Well one  thought is that Bach was working with multiple traditions -- German, French and Italian. And these traditions brought with them very different social and  political associations -- German old style religiosity, pre-enlightenment; French tasteful formal court music; vigorous, highly forward driven, combat-style Italian concertos. You can see Bach as the great synthesis maker, creating highly stable order out of what seem like opposites. Or you could see his music as a less than stable amalgam of these incompatible, contradictory  traditions. Dissonance is about disorder. And to some extent so is the sort of agogics that I hear sometimes in Rubsam.

The important point is that the styles were meaningful philosophically, connected to ideas about the enlightenment, monarchy, the individual, society. And hence Bach's music was full of meaning.

And I guess I want to say that a good 21st century performance of a piece of Bach makes him our contemporary because it goes some way to  recapturing some of the original tension, some of the original spirit of putting things together which may not entirely cohere. I think Harnoncourt at his best goes some way to doing that, for example.

This is great stuff. I immediately wonder how all this played out in Bach's mind; what the biographical record reveals, what we can re/construct now. (It's crazy how little i've researched him. I wish i had the time now but i just don't...) For example: did he see himself (or market himself to conservative church employers) as sacralizing foreign secular musics? Or was he (unconsciously?), while certainly devout, breaking out in disruptive radical directions, cultural and maybe theological? How "incompatible, contradictory" were his churchly vs secular employments (including the preferred ones he didn't get), and the conceptions of music that went with them? Etc?

[Not expecting answers -- just sharing where my mind goes with these fascinating ideas.]
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 12, 2013, 08:44:42 AM
Re Hill, I think he's absolutely wonderful at playng counterpoint. One of the things I'm thinking about is how his way with counterpoint is different from Leonhardt's. I've been playng Leonhardt's DHM AoF and Hill's record of it for Hänssler. Hill seems to play more often for resolution and equilibrium, Leonhardt more often for tension, at least that's my preliminary impression. I wouldn't be surprised if these two styles of counterpoint are reflections of their different ideas about what Bach's music is about.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on June 14, 2013, 10:14:35 AM
Ok, further noob questions about the Bach organ as instrument, this time re "touch sensitive".

I've read about how the speed at which a key is depressed can change how a pipe speaks. And i'm sure i've heard the difference here and there...without realizing that's what was happening. So i could use help getting a better understanding:
Extra thanks!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 25, 2013, 12:08:43 PM
Quote from: alyosha on June 08, 2013, 07:07:01 AM
I'm only saying that between full sustain on organ at the one extreme, and notes cut off / non-overlapping at the other (i'll speak to hall reverberation in a moment), the large ratio of attack to sustain on harpsichord offers a middle range. And one specific technique making use of that is to stagger the onsets of the notes, so they can be heard both serially and in sustain. And in more dissonant cases this is especially helpful, both re the legibility of individual notes, and softening the harshness of dissonance. The theme here is a kind of having it both ways at once. This can of course be done in a way on the organ, but the attack/sustain balance is very different, and it's my belief that this matters a lot to the listener and the composer.

So i'm highlighting one option, one "advantage" the harpsichord (etc) has over the organ, and how it's especially helpful re dissonance. But there are many dis/advantages to both instruments, and we obviously agree that transcription translation between them is a welcome thing, and that it's fine and HIP to make appropriate changes to the score, etc. Changes made due to "trickiness" -- which i subjectively weigh as greater in one direction. If you disagree, and feel that both are about the same, or that organ->harpsichord is instead the trickier direction overall, i would accept that with interest and listen with fresh ears.  :)

Generally the different parts are easy to hear on the organ even when dissonant and attacked simultaneously, while this may be more difficult on the harpsichord. So I think the arpeggio approach on the harpsichord in the first hand serves to facilitate the audibility of the individual parts. And to clarify dissonances rather than to soften them. So you may to advantage play the same pieces on organ or harpsichord, provided you adapt your style to the instrument. HansJörg Albrecht´s Partitas are on their way to me, I am rather curious as to what kind of effects he has chosen to use.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 25, 2013, 12:20:38 PM
Quote from: alyosha on June 08, 2013, 08:01:51 AM
I'm interested in hearing Bach organ (be the playing style HIP, not, grey, undefined, all of the above ;) ) with very simple registrations, such as you describe above. I mean, on pieces that aren't usually played that way, like the intros-and-fugues.

Well, I wrote that I think the organ triosonatas and the harpsichord partitas on organ should be played with simple registrations. The great organ preludes and fugues should of course be played with the full use of the organ, and I do not know any recordings of these works using simple registrations.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 25, 2013, 12:52:25 PM
Quote from: alyosha on June 14, 2013, 10:14:35 AM
Ok, further noob questions about the Bach organ as instrument, this time re "touch sensitive".

I've read about how the speed at which a key is depressed can change how a pipe speaks. And i'm sure i've heard the difference here and there...without realizing that's what was happening. So i could use help getting a better understanding:

       
  • How widespread is this effect: How common is it for organs and stops have a clearly noticeable difference? I would assume it's only significant with simple registration and particular stops. Or is it a technique at use throughout baroque organ playing?
  • What are the bounds on a Bach-HIP expressive use of this effect? Can it vary note-by-note, and by degrees, analogous to dynamics on a piano? Or is it more "terraced": a similar touch used for an entire phrase/voice?
  • Is it even possible to use a variety of touches when playing quickly, as one can on the piano? Here i'm speculating about what the mechanisms allow, music geek meets physics geek 8) -- which of course means i could be completely wrong... :o It partly depends on how much more slowly the key needs to be pressed to make a difference, which i also don't know. (I've never played on a tracker organ.)
   

I do not think the speed of the depression of the key has got any important application in baroque organ music, and in practice my impression is, that it does not make much difference. My organ teacher (a Bach specialist) taught me to adjust my speed and force to the properties - particularly the resistance -  of the tracker action, which may be very different (heavy - light) on different manuals even on the same organ, in order to achieve a homogeneous attack. The articulation is a question of how long time the key is depressed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on July 01, 2013, 05:53:33 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 25, 2013, 12:20:38 PM
Well, I wrote that I think the organ triosonatas and the harpsichord partitas on organ should be played with simple registrations. The great organ preludes and fugues should of course be played with the full use of the organ, and I do not know any recordings of these works using simple registrations.

Speaking of the trio sonatas, any recommendations on trio sonata recordings?  I have the Lippincott recording (http://www.amazon.com/Trio-Sonatas-J-S-Bach/dp/B00004T92A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372729720&sr=8-1&keywords=lippincott+bach) and would like something to supplement it with.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on July 02, 2013, 12:57:21 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on July 01, 2013, 05:53:33 PM
Speaking of the trio sonatas, any recommendations on trio sonata recordings?  I have the Lippincott recording (http://www.amazon.com/Trio-Sonatas-J-S-Bach/dp/B00004T92A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372729720&sr=8-1&keywords=lippincott+bach) and would like something to supplement it with.

Holm Vogel (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001WJB/goodmusicguide-20) (Capriccio). (Only four of them, but very well done.)

My over all favorite probably: Andre Isoir  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00009EPFL/goodmusicguide-20) (Calliope)

John Butt (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000007D6/goodmusicguide-20) (alternative pressing (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026D3C/goodmusicguide-20), alternative 2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MNIV/goodmusicguide-20)) (HM) I remember liking, but haven't heard in a while.

But you can get many of the bits from complete sets individually. Koopman (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000SMV/goodmusicguide-20) (Altes Werk), Koopman (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000057F4/goodmusicguide-20) (Archiv), Alain (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LCIWL6/goodmusicguide-20) (Naefels, Erato) & Alain (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E6YF/goodmusicguide-20) (Saint-Donat, Erato)  (although I am not sure if one of those recordings is not yet still different from those in her integrals), Herrick (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002ZMZ/goodmusicguide-20), Preston (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025WRR/goodmusicguide-20), Bowyers (http://www.amazon.com/Kevin-Bowyer-s-Recordings-of-the-Complete-Organ-Works-by-Bach/lm/R2BUALQAOX6P63/?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&linkCode=ur2&tag=goodmusicguide-20) certainly..., Johannsen (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000JNJY/goodmusicguide-20) (Haenssler Ed.), Daniel Chorzempa (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008FJHW/goodmusicguide-20) (Philips)...

Wouldn't mind hearing Ghielmi in these... but haven't gotten my hands or ears on it.







Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 02, 2013, 08:21:11 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on July 01, 2013, 05:53:33 PM
Speaking of the trio sonatas, any recommendations on trio sonata recordings?  I have the Lippincott recording (http://www.amazon.com/Trio-Sonatas-J-S-Bach/dp/B00004T92A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372729720&sr=8-1&keywords=lippincott+bach) and would like something to supplement it with.

Christa Rakich+friends. Also maybe  Power Biggs and Kei Koito. And Rare Fruit.

I'm looking for a sense of interaction between the voices, a range of characher (not just  perkiness), and some feeling of the difficulty, it's pretty astonishing that one person can play them.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on July 07, 2013, 03:26:58 PM
Anyone have thoughts on Alain III v.s. Ritchie v.s. Weinberger?  If it helps, the two sets I currently own are Foccroulle and Vernet.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on July 07, 2013, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on July 07, 2013, 03:26:58 PM
Anyone have thoughts on Alain III v.s. Ritchie v.s. Weinberger?  If it helps, the two sets I currently own are Foccroulle and Vernet.

Don't know Ritchie. Weinberger if you like your Bach professorial. Some pieces are quite well done, but too much of it is, frankly, boring. I cherish its completeness, but it's not among even my top 10 of cycles. Alain III, however, decidedly is. But perhaps you could go non-French, for your third set. Weinberger is certainly that... but Koopman would be, too. "Rubsam I (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00002614U/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B00002614U&linkCode=as2&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21)" unfortunately hard to find... Bowyers (http://www.amazon.com/Kevin-Bowyer-s-Recordings-of-the-Complete-Organ-Works-by-Bach/lm/R2BUALQAOX6P63/?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&linkCode=ur2&tag=nectarandambr-20) is very much not French, also.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on July 07, 2013, 04:19:44 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 07, 2013, 03:40:16 PM
But perhaps you could go non-French, for your third set.

Not a bad idea.  Open to further recommendations in this line of thinking. :)

Bowyers seems interesting, but I'll have to get that one one at a time, it seems.  I'm not a fan of MP3 CDs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on July 10, 2013, 05:24:17 AM
I opened up the Foccroulle box only to realize that I hadn't dug out this set and played it yet (probably a set that I bought in case went OOP)...based on the first disc and a half, this shall be a great experience.  Still interested in a third set, though.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2013, 05:35:59 AM
Jens's suggestion sparks the realization that, with no apparent forethought, my sets are geographically diversified (German, French & Dutch).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on July 10, 2013, 08:03:38 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2013, 05:35:59 AM
Jens's suggestion sparks the realization that, with no apparent forethought, my sets are geographically diversified (German, French &amp; Dutch).

Don't be a tease...which sets do you have?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2013, 08:05:49 AM
Hah! The Walcha set upon whose provenance Jens has cast (and righteously) so baleful a light; one of the Alain sets (I am too green to say just which, offhand); and in the flash drive edition, Koopman.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on July 10, 2013, 09:36:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2013, 08:05:49 AM
Hah! The Walcha set upon whose provenance Jens has cast (and righteously) so baleful a light; one of the Alain sets (I am too green to say just which, offhand); and in the flash drive edition, Koopman.

A selection of my collection... a sign of my obsession about bachian possessions.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hV_NhG2w3wI/Ud2ZxnLFkoI/AAAAAAAAGp8/gIbLFRlWZgc/s1600/Bach_Organ_Works.jpg)

(From left to right: Rogg III, Alain II, Walcha I, Walcha II, Koopman, Silbermann Organs, Preston, Alain III, Stockmeier, Weinberger, Vernet, Ruebsam I; not included Fagius, which is part of the Complete Bach set on Brilliant.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2013, 09:49:18 AM
Ah, mine would be Alain II, then.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on July 10, 2013, 11:52:53 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on July 07, 2013, 04:19:44 PM
Not a bad idea.  Open to further recommendations in this line of thinking. :)

Bowyers seems interesting, but I'll have to get that one one at a time, it seems.  I'm not a fan of MP3 CDs.

I acquired quite a few of the Bowyer discs when they were initially released and have found his performances frustrating - entirely hit or miss without any particular personality.  He's better than Tillmanns on Danacord, but that's not saying much.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on July 10, 2013, 12:01:45 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on July 07, 2013, 04:19:44 PM
Not a bad idea.  Open to further recommendations in this line of thinking. :)

Bowyers seems interesting, but I'll have to get that one one at a time, it seems.  I'm not a fan of MP3 CDs.

Nah, I wouldn't bother with MP3 CDs, either. I hate the concept... combining the worst of both formats.
Bowyers does it for me, in the few discs I have... admittedly not heard in a while. I remember particularly liking his Organ Mass.
Perhaps I've gotten lucky with the five or so disc sets I have from his cycle... it's true that I've not heard all that many great things about it, apart from those very obvious fluff-reviews that I'd pay little heed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2013, 01:07:55 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on July 10, 2013, 05:24:17 AM
I opened up the Foccroulle box only to realize that I hadn't dug out this set and played it yet (probably a set that I bought in case went OOP)...based on the first disc and a half, this shall be a great experience.  Still interested in a third set, though.

Sometimes I think he's a bit faceless and a bit staid, but there are one or two real beauties in there. Trio Sonata 4 for example, is one of my favourites.

I think what's being said about Walcha 1 is unfair. For example, the  trio sonatas there are unsurpassed for ecstasy. There may be other equally valid ways of playing them, but Walcha's way is, for me, thrilling.

If you really want a third set, the obvious one to get is Rubsam (Naxos). That way you'll be in touch with some very different and challenging  ideas, but still within the HIP framework (maybe)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on July 10, 2013, 01:47:35 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 10, 2013, 01:07:55 PM
If you really want a third set, the obvious one to get is Rubsam (Naxos). That way you'll be in touch with some very different and challenging  ideas, but still within the HIP framework (maybe)

Good recommendation, that. Ruebsam II is, err... HIP-informed, I suppose. But on American Organs and with a very (charming!) personality driven interpretative credo.
Pity it's not been turned into a convenient set... but here's a link to all the volumes in the series:


Wolfgang Rubsam Bach Organ Works on Naxos (http://www.amazon.com/Wolfang-R%C3%BCbsam-s-Naxos-recordings-of-the-Complete-Organ-Works-by-Bach/lm/R3T4JY2CA16F2W/?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&linkCode=ur2&tag=goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on July 10, 2013, 02:22:07 PM
The Rubsam II sounds interesting.  On the other hand, that Ritchie set is OOP but still available for a reasonable price and the idea of an American playing on American organs built based on German baroque organs is interesting...in any case, for the price that the Rubsam discs are available I can afford to pick up several alongside the Ritchie set if I go for that.  (I believe I already have Rubsam's Leipzig Chorales, so I'll need to give that a listen.)

Quote from: Sammy on July 10, 2013, 11:52:53 AM
I acquired quite a few of the Bowyer discs when they were initially released and have found his performances frustrating - entirely hit or miss without any particular personality.  He's better than Tillmanns on Danacord, but that's not saying much.

Do you have a recommendation for a favored set?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on July 10, 2013, 03:24:32 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on July 10, 2013, 02:22:07 PM
The Rubsam II sounds interesting.  On the other hand, that Ritchie set is OOP but still available for a reasonable price and the idea of an American playing on American organs built based on German baroque organs is interesting...in any case, for the price that the Rubsam discs are available I can afford to pick up several alongside the Ritchie set if I go for that.  (I believe I already have Rubsam's Leipzig Chorales, so I'll need to give that a listen.)

Do you have a recommendation for a favored set?

Rogg/Harmonia Mundi, Rubsam/Naxos, Weinberger/CPO and the Hanssler/Bach recordings excepting for Kay Johannsen who I find rather boring. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on July 10, 2013, 04:28:54 PM
Quote from: Sammy on July 10, 2013, 03:24:32 PM
Rogg/Harmonia Mundi, Rubsam/Naxos, Weinberger/CPO and the Hanssler/Bach recordings excepting for Kay Johannsen who I find rather boring. 

So, you don't find Weinberger too 'scholarly' and/or boring at times?  Just trying to figure out if there's any kind of a consensus here.  Thanks, by the way.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on July 10, 2013, 05:18:19 PM
Quote from: Sammy on July 10, 2013, 03:24:32 PM
excepting for Kay Johannsen who I find rather boring.

Now that I don't understand, my favorite set of Trio Sonatas ever!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on July 10, 2013, 05:52:10 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on July 10, 2013, 04:28:54 PM
So, you don't find Weinberger too 'scholarly' and/or boring at times? 

Best I can remember, the only thing that bothered me about his set was that the soundstage was overly reverberant in two or three of the discs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on July 10, 2013, 06:00:36 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 10, 2013, 05:18:19 PM
Now that I don't understand, my favorite set of Trio Sonatas ever!

Really?  Johannsen?  I found the playing on that disc heavy, slow, dour and lacking the degree of majesty I prefer.  He does perform a few of movements excellently, but my overall feeling is that he joins Bowyer, Tillmanns, Murray and a few others at the low end of the Bach scale.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on July 10, 2013, 07:42:25 PM
Another point in dealing with complete sets; I've found that it matters how the set is organized: some are organized by pure genre, like Alain II;  some are organized semi-speculatively quasi-chronologically, like Vernet.  I've found my ears work better with the latter approach, but of course not everyone's ears are like mine, and some may prefer to have all the chorales in one vast series, and the free from works in another series. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sean on July 10, 2013, 08:13:34 PM
I got to know these works from the Hurford, which I first bought partly in the clumsy jewel sets, then later complete; the playing is articulate and on top of the counterpoint yet there's a sense of fullness along with well consistently focused sound and smooth contours .

I don't like the somewhat mixed up layout and the itemization of works could be clearer- I spent time identifying which was exactly which with the list of works in Grove. The only other recording I've since heard through once or twice is the Hans Fagius on Brilliant Classics, a very different approach cultivating rich dark lines with a wider acoustic, and an interpretation to go to only after you've gained familiarity I think. I gave the set to the local catholic priest actually, who makes some use of it before services begin...

By the way folks, a plea for more specific threads. We don't want to wade through 100 pages of meandering comments on this block of 17 hours of music. Bach organ works- complete recordings is fine, but otherwise I'd always just start individual threads and get more focused discussions on The Bach organ Preludes and fugues or The German organ mass etc. I couldn't be bothered with titles like the present one...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on July 10, 2013, 08:53:50 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 10, 2013, 05:18:19 PM
Now that I don't understand, my favorite set of Trio Sonatas ever!

Kay Johannsen's performance scores high points with me as well. 8)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 10, 2013, 09:10:02 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on July 07, 2013, 03:26:58 PM
Anyone have thoughts on Alain III v.s. Ritchie v.s. Weinberger?  If it helps, the two sets I currently own are Foccroulle and Vernet.

Alain was the teacher of Vernet. She's maybe less free than her pupil.

Ritchie and Weinberger have a (more or less) similar strict HIP(-influenced) approach towards Bach, Weinberger being (far) more complete with a more interesting choice of instruments.
But of the HIP(-influenced) bunch I'd say that Foccroulle is more satisfying.

So: considering the two sets you already own, Koopman and Rübsam (Naxos) are more interesting alternatives IMHO.
Other options: Walcha II (DG). It's the Golden Oldie choice. :)
Koopman and pupils (Aeolus): quite expensive, but rather impressive, on French Silbermann organs. Valid for money, no doubt.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on July 10, 2013, 09:15:44 PM
Quote from: Sammy on July 10, 2013, 05:52:10 PM
Best I can remember, the only thing that bothered me about his set was that the soundstage was overly reverberant in two or three of the discs.

On Weinberger we agree.  The comments I've read above that he is professorial, scholastic or stuffy don't match my experience.  I'd say his style is focused on making individual voices audible, rather than creating a monumental sound.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2013, 10:29:57 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 10, 2013, 09:15:44 PM
On Weinberger we agree.  The comments I've read above that he is professorial, scholastic or stuffy don't match my experience.  I'd say his style is focused on making individual voices audible, rather than creating a monumental sound.

I've really got a lot out of listening to Weinberger's Art of Fugue.  It's not just because you can hear all the voices, but because of the way he makes the voices interleave and interrelate. There's tons of struggle and tension in his counterpoint, a million miles away from Foccroulle's style.  I thought some of the chorales, in the orgelbuchlein, were really very fine too. And even the trio sonatas have some really magic things in them, an extrordinary largo from 5 for example, and 3.


Another set I've found pretty stimulating to dip into is Hans Fagius's.




Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on July 11, 2013, 01:22:54 PM
Quote from: Sean on July 10, 2013, 08:13:34 PM
By the way folks, a plea for more specific threads. We don't want to wade through 100 pages of meandering comments on this block of 17 hours of music. Bach organ works- complete recordings is fine, but otherwise I'd always just start individual threads and get more focused discussions on The Bach organ Preludes and fugues or The German organ mass etc. I couldn't be bothered with titles like the present one...

So start your own organ threads and stop complaining.

By the way, I didn't know you were the spokesperson for a group of people - "We don't want to wade through".....
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on July 11, 2013, 01:36:06 PM
Quote from: Sammy on July 11, 2013, 01:22:54 PM
So start your own organ threads and stop complaining.

By the way, I didn't know you were the spokesperson for a group of people - "We don't want to wade through".....

Either it's the "royal we" or a case of multiple personality disorder.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on July 11, 2013, 05:30:52 PM
Quote from: Que on July 10, 2013, 08:53:50 PM
Kay Johannsen's performance scores high points with me as well. 8)

Q

+3.

He and M-C Alain (from her second cycle) are two of my favorites.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on July 11, 2013, 06:13:16 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 11, 2013, 01:36:06 PM
Either it's the "royal we" or a case of multiple personality disorder.

It's a mixture of both: APD, or Arrogant Personality Disorder.

On the real topic under discussion--bear in mind that we're dealing with a large body of work, written over several decades, and encompassing several different musical genres.  To expect one organist to excel over 16 CDs worth of such material is to ask for a perfection only rarely attainable by mortals.

FWIW (and I admit it's probably not much), here's what I have, listed in basic order of preference

Tier I
Vernet
Tier II
the Hanssler Classic cycle "by diverse hands" so to speak
Koopman
Tier III
Alain II
Preston

I've not yet listened to Foccroulle--he's got two WTCs ahead of him in The Pile (Leonhardt and Feltsman).

I would probably rate Alain II higher except for the feeling that in several of the chorales CDs, she seemed to be chugging through a contractual obligation and not recording music she actually wanted to perform.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sean on July 11, 2013, 07:00:36 PM
Hard to imagine a more reliable, clear headed way to get into this music, recorded over a dozen years but with great stylistic continuity.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411A1I65ldL._SY355_.jpg)

And a royal we? I'll go with that, I'd make a fine monarch, King Sean I.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 11, 2013, 11:39:38 PM
Can someone who likes Johannsen's Bach please say something about it? like why they like it.  I have to decide whether to listen to some of it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on July 12, 2013, 09:24:39 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 11, 2013, 06:13:16 PM
On the real topic under discussion--bear in mind that we're dealing with a large body of work, written over several decades, and encompassing several different musical genres.  To expect one organist to excel over 16 CDs worth of such material is to ask for a perfection only rarely attainable by mortals.

Agreed.  I'm under no illusions that any set I get will be perfect all the way through.

QuoteI would probably rate Alain II higher except for the feeling that in several of the chorales CDs, she seemed to be chugging through a contractual obligation and not recording music she actually wanted to perform.

Thanks for the thoughts on Alain II, specifically.  I wasn't leaning toward Alain II as an immediate purchase (though it seems a given to purchase at some point), but I am fond of many of the chorales I've heard and will take that into consideration.

As is, this Weinberger set has me just fascinated given the instruments involved and all the controversy it stirs up amongst members here.  It seems that that set supplemented by some of the Rubsam recordings might be the route I take.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on July 12, 2013, 09:31:05 AM
I would appreciate some help with the opening motif of the BWV 552 "St. Anne" prelude.

It is often performed with a measure at the chosen main tempo, then a measure of ritenuto (or your preferred term for a sudden and significant slowing), then a measure a tempo, then another of ritenuto, then a tempo on into the piece until the chordal motif recurs. There is no indication for the ritenuto in the scores i've checked. Please note that i am not referring to rubato within (introductory) passages read as improvisatory / played ad lib. Rather i'm at a loss re slamming rapidly back and forth between distinct tempi.

Performers vary a great deal: from no ritenuto, or minor enough to be considered rubato in the spirit of HIP harpsichord; through moderate ritenuto that puzzles me but doesn't completely suspend forward movement; through interruptions of the flow that sound bizarre to me, the last including HIP organists such as Weinberger and Fagius (and of course not-so-HIP, such as Rubsam on Naxos).

There are HIP (- as far as i can tell) organists on all parts of this spectrum. Yet the more ritenuto end of the range is common, and is more puzzling to me than the typical diversity of interpretations. It seems quite out of keeping with my (newbie) familiarity with the many many chordal moments in other Bach organ works which are not treated in this way, as well my (more informed) sense of other Bach genres* and baroque HIP more generally**.

* Among the countless chordal passages in Bach that one pretty much never hears played this way, i'm especially struck by the similarity with the opening of the E minor "harpsichord" Partitia BWV 830. I don't think i've ever heard it played, by no matter how romantic or postmodern an interpreter, with the rapid-cycling ritenuto one can easily find in BWV 552.

** Apart from occasions in dramatic contexts such as opera, these jolting changes in tempo seem to go against general conceptions of baroque music such as the affects, the nature of tempo, the unity of "movements", etc. (I claim only an "advanced beginner"s understanding re the theory, but have listened to vast amounts of HIP baroque.)

So i'm left wondering: Is there a performance tradition re this particular piece? Or what is going on; what am i missing?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on July 12, 2013, 09:48:03 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on July 12, 2013, 09:24:39 AM
Agreed.  I'm under no illusions that any set I get will be perfect all the way through.

Thanks for the thoughts on Alain II, specifically.  I wasn't leaning toward Alain II as an immediate purchase (though it seems a given to purchase at some point), but I am fond of many of the chorales I've heard and will take that into consideration.

As is, this Weinberger set has me just fascinated given the instruments involved and all the controversy it stirs up amongst members here.  It seems that that set supplemented by some of the Rubsam recordings might be the route I take.

On the plus side for Alain II, she's very good in the freeform works (the fugues, etc.), and of course I simply may have been experiencing listening fatigue at that particular moment...

I see you're moving up in keyboard addictions!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on July 12, 2013, 10:29:03 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 11, 2013, 11:39:38 PM
Can someone who likes Johannsen's Bach please say something about it? like why they like it.  I have to decide whether to listen to some of it.

The only Johannsen I have listened to is the disc of trio sonatas.  I like the fact that the registration and articulation produces a very transparent effect and that in this recording it is easy to distinguish the three voices and hear the counterpoint clearly.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 12, 2013, 10:35:40 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 12, 2013, 10:29:03 AM
The only Johannsen I have listened to is the disc of trio sonatas.  I like the fact that the registration and articulation produces a very transparent effect and that in this recording it is easy to distinguish the three voices and hear the counterpoint clearly.

OK. Trio Sonata 5 is on spotify. I'll listen tonight.

Quote from: Geo Dude on July 12, 2013, 09:24:39 AM


As is, this Weinberger set has me just fascinated given the instruments involved and all the controversy it stirs up amongst members here.  It seems that that set supplemented by some of the Rubsam recordings might be the route I take.

I've been listening all day to Weinberger play the Trio Sonatas. He doesn't really do smiling and upbeat like Power Biggs, or exciting like Walcha. But it's full of revealing stuff nevertheless and I think in its way he's sometimes (slow movements esp)  as  poetic as  Power Biggs and Walcha and Alain or whoever. Weinberger's Bach is hard, tough. Like with Rubsam you have to clean your mind of expectations first I think.

Trio sonata 6 is particularly rich  and strange.

By the way, if you do explore Rubsam on Naxos, I think the Leipzig Chorales are particularly fine.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sean on July 12, 2013, 10:56:14 AM
Hi alyosha, if you can play Bach you're doing better than most...

Did you think of posting on the performance board? Don't know how active it is right now...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: alyosha on July 12, 2013, 11:35:00 AM
Quote from: Sean on July 12, 2013, 10:56:14 AM
Hi alyosha, if you can play Bach you're doing better than most...

Oh no -- i'm only posting as a listener. A listener and wanna-be understander... ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sean on July 12, 2013, 12:18:41 PM
Well you've got my interest but it's slightly too technical perhaps and I'd tend to go with whatever decision the reputable interpreter of the day might make of it.

Try some Stokowski arrangements for something to really quibble about. BWV595 is the business.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: North Star on July 12, 2013, 12:28:04 PM
Quote from: Sean on July 12, 2013, 12:18:41 PM
Well you've got my interest but it's slightly too technical perhaps and I'd tend to go with whatever decision the reputable interpreter of the day might make of it.

Try some Stokowski arrangements for something to really quibble about. BWV595 is the business.

I asssume you mean BWV 565
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sean on July 12, 2013, 12:34:11 PM
I do.

Getting my Mozart in a twist.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Geo Dude on July 12, 2013, 12:44:07 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 12, 2013, 09:48:03 AM
I see you're moving up in keyboard addictions!

:D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 04, 2013, 11:30:27 AM
Been listening to these recordings of the 80s:

(http://106.imagebam.com/download/2aegkTe_8_tdgmCbaFz9MQ/26887/268869843/jsb-hm2cd.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Orgelwerke-Meister-Hubert/dp/B005JWX9QQ/

Lots of heavy stuff on this 2-cd, with a.o. the colossal free works BWV 542, 544, 546-548, 552 and 582. Only two chorale preludes, "O Mensch, bewein dein Sünde groß" (BWV 622) and "Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit" (BWV 668).
Hubert Meister generally plays a Bach to my likings (the fugue of BWV 546 a bit too lazy though), very clear, without too much legato combined with apt phrasing and articulation, but unfortunately the Mathis organs sound like huge synthesizers, even though they are tuned in unequal temperament. Maybe Jean-Michel Jarre would have liked it, but I had some rather tiring listening experiences, despite Meister's attractive playing.
He should have picked a nice Silbermann or Wagner organ IMHO. Pity, a missed opportunity.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 04, 2013, 01:00:22 PM
Quote from: Marc on August 04, 2013, 11:30:27 AM
Been listening to these recordings of the 80s:
Lots of heavy stuff on this 2-cd, with a.o. the colossal free works BWV 542, 544, 546-548, 552 and 582. Only two chorale preludes, "O Mensch, bewein dein Sünde groß" (BWV 622) and "Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit" (BWV 668).
Hubert Meister generally plays a Bach to my likings (the fugue of BWV 546 a bit too lazy though), very clear, without too much legato combined with apt phrasing and articulation, but unfortunately the Mathis organs sound like huge synthesizers, even though they are tuned in unequal temperament. Maybe Jean-Michel Jarre would have liked it, but I had some rather tiring listening experiences, despite Meister's attractive playing.
He should have picked a nice Silbermann or Wagner organ IMHO. Pity, a missed opportunity.

The booklet only states that two of the (three) organs in use are tuned unequally. The third organ, the Mathis organ, Schutzengelkirche Eichstätt, DE, which he uses for BWV 544, 552 & 582, is probably equally tuned and sounds like that.

I agree with you about the sound of the organs on these CDs. Maybe the fault of the recording, since MC Alains recording of BWV 525-530 using one of these organs, the one in the Pfarrkirche, St. Hilarius, Näfels, didn´t sound that bad.

Considering your post, I think you would like this, which I recommended in the first post of this very thread:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Triosonaten-BWV-525-530/hnum/6795941
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 04, 2013, 09:44:37 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 04, 2013, 01:00:22 PM
The booklet only states that two of the (three) organs in use are tuned unequally. The third organ, the Mathis organ, Schutzengelkirche Eichstätt, DE, which he uses for BWV 544, 552 & 582, is probably equally tuned and sounds like that.

I agree with you about the sound of the organs on these CDs. Maybe the fault of the recording, since MC Alains recording of BWV 525-530 using one of these organs, the one in the Pfarrkirche, St. Hilarius, Näfels, didn´t sound that bad.

Considering your post, I think you would like this, which I recommended in the first post of this very thread:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Triosonaten-BWV-525-530/hnum/6795941

You're right, it's the 'big' 32ft equally tuned organ that's suffering the most from the 'Jarre' sound.

And thanks for the link! My first aim was indeed this Sonatas disc, but it wasn't in the catalogue of the Dutch central library. Therefore I'm very happy with this jpc possibility. (The Amazon prices are astrological.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on August 25, 2013, 10:18:37 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 04, 2013, 09:44:37 PM
(The Amazon prices are astrological.)

I enjoyed the almost imperceptible turn from "astronomical" to "astrological". After all, we love old instruments. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 25, 2013, 10:40:24 PM
Quote from: Annie on August 25, 2013, 10:26:13 AM
That's prejudgemental and sarcastic. Maybe Amazon applies different pricing to different signs that we don't know of. i.e. September is a 10% discount month for Virgo...

That was exactly my point. :P

I'll have to wait for November 22nd and then .... shoot!

Oh and btw: this is a long thread .... but it's a very very nice thread. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on September 20, 2013, 04:43:30 AM

Marc et al.: Anyone can tell me which organ(s) Chapuis uses on his Valois set?

Builder (if available), Year of built (year(s) of major restorations if applicable), Name of Church, City
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on September 20, 2013, 05:27:39 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 04:50:29 AM
I can, Jenny...should I list here? It's easier and healthier if I'm allowed to attach a scan of the related page from his booklet

Whatever is easier for you, Bob.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on September 20, 2013, 05:42:58 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 20, 2013, 05:35:09 AM
I was being sensitive about forum rules.
Would that do, Jenny?
(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8717/r7be.jpg)

Perfect, Bob! Much obliged.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on September 20, 2013, 03:35:45 PM
A year's worth of prepping (here a day, there an hour) -- and finally a day to put it all together into code... not quite finished yet (especially information on the organs still missing from many sets), but in presentable shape:



A Survey of Bach Organ Cycles


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-thtV3npwdYY/UdP62-OpysI/AAAAAAAAGk4/s4r7zdpJuxs/s600/BACH_Portrait_original_laurson_600.jpgg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)

Got to add Isoir, seeing that it'll be re-issued soon (the concertos are already out), and the Haenssler cooperative cycle. Pain in the rear, seeing how this involves shifting cycles downward. Lots of treacherous cutting & pasting.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on October 03, 2013, 11:35:10 AM
To be released on Oct. 29th.

[asin]B00CBEA5M6[/asin]

Now, they should bring out all the non-organ keyboard works in a reasonably-priced box and I'll be happy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on October 03, 2013, 01:38:58 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on October 03, 2013, 11:35:10 AM
To be released on Oct. 29th.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00CBEA5M6.01.L.jpg)

Now, they should bring out all the non-organ keyboard works in a reasonably-priced box and I'll be happy.

PERFECT!  I was just wondering when this would be released. Does anyone have the earliest and latest recording date of that set? I've got the organists, at least... but not, I think, the organs used, for my Bach Organ Survey. (Sounds dirty, somehow. Reminds me of a paper that one of my German professors once (allegedly) received and began thus: "Bach had 20 Children. He was a grand master of the organ."
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on October 03, 2013, 03:24:56 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 03, 2013, 01:38:58 PM
PERFECT!  I was just wondering when this would be released. Does anyone have the earliest and latest recording date of that set? I've got the organists, at least... but not, I think, the organs used, for my Bach Organ Survey. (Sounds dirty, somehow. Reminds me of a paper that one of my German professors once (allegedly) received and began thus: "Bach had 20 Children. He was a grand master of the organ."

The hard copy track listings contain only the barest information of who plays;  I'll dig out the PDF booklets from my hard drive and see if they have any information. Besides recording dates and instruments, is there any other information you need/want?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on October 03, 2013, 05:20:18 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 03, 2013, 01:38:58 PM
PERFECT!  I was just wondering when this would be released. Does anyone have the earliest and latest recording date of that set? I've got the organists, at least... but not, I think, the organs used, for my Bach Organ Survey. (Sounds dirty, somehow. Reminds me of a paper that one of my German professors once (allegedly) received and began thus: "Bach had 20 Children. He was a grand master of the organ."

It's so embarrassing... I uploaded the booklet of the complete organ works on Hänssler, but when I was sending the link to you, this message appeared:

User 'jlaurson' has blocked your personal message.

:-[ :'( :P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on October 03, 2013, 11:17:29 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 03, 2013, 05:20:18 PM
It's so embarrassing... I uploaded the booklet of the complete organ works on Hänssler, but when I was sending the link to you, this message appeared:

User 'jlaurson' has blocked your personal message.

:-[ :'( :P

Ooops. Sorry about that. The settings have been amended.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on October 04, 2013, 06:07:22 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 20, 2013, 03:35:45 PM
A year's worth of prepping (here a day, there an hour) -- and finally a day to put it all together into code... not quite finished yet (especially information on the organs still missing from many sets), but in presentable shape:



A Survey of Bach Organ Cycles


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-thtV3npwdYY/UdP62-OpysI/AAAAAAAAGk4/s4r7zdpJuxs/s600/BACH_Portrait_original_laurson_600.jpgg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)

Got to add Isoir, seeing that it'll be re-issued soon (the concertos are already out), and the Haenssler cooperative cycle. Pain in the rear, seeing how this involves shifting cycles downward. Lots of treacherous cutting & pasting.

Updated with the pertinent information. Thanks much all'round.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DavidW on October 04, 2013, 07:24:27 AM
Looking at Jens survey I see that Alain's third cycle is available for only $40 from amazon MP.  Worth it?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on October 04, 2013, 07:26:40 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 04, 2013, 07:24:27 AM
Looking at Jens survey I see that Alain's third cycle is available for only $40 from amazon MP.  Worth it?

To me, yes.  But if I had to pick one Alain cycle, it would be the second.  The third cycle is generally recorded with too much reverberation for my taste.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DavidW on October 04, 2013, 07:28:57 AM
That set is even cheaper!  I assumed incorrectly that the newer cycle would have better sound quality.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on October 04, 2013, 07:31:56 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 04, 2013, 07:28:57 AM
That set is even cheaper!  I assumed incorrectly that the newer cycle would have better sound quality.

Sound quality is in the ear of the beholder, to some extent.  The digital set sounds good on headphones, but over speakers, to washy (in my listening room, in any case).  If I were restricted to one set it would probably be Koopman.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on October 04, 2013, 07:33:02 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 04, 2013, 07:28:57 AM
That set is even cheaper!  I assumed incorrectly that the newer cycle would have better sound quality.

Oh, I wouldn't say it's a matter of quality but rather of taste. In any case: can't go wrong with either!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 04, 2013, 07:39:16 AM
On thw topic of Alain, her Buxtehude is now cut price  on this CD

(http://www.expeditionaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/apex_2564651790.jpg)

The style is as you would expect, lyrical and not at all in the grand manner. And I thought it  was quite revealing and special.

Her second Art of Fugue is also availabe now directly and cheaply from amazon in the UK at least.  I've just ordered it. As far as I know her first recording never been transfered from CD to a digital format.

[asin]B000005EAW[/asin]
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 03, 2013, 10:48:39 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on October 03, 2013, 11:35:10 AM
To be released on Oct. 29th.

(http://thumbnails103.imagebam.com/28602/c7c0cd286018237.jpg) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/c7c0cd286018237)
[....]

Europeans: it's quite a bargain at Amazon.de!

20 discs for less than €30,--!

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00CBEA5M6/

And it's worth every penny IMHO .... I personally consider Martin Lücker the weakest link, but others might think differently. Every integral has its weaknesses though. Overall this is a great set to have and enjoy!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Drosera on November 07, 2013, 11:26:34 PM
Yay, I made it through this wonderful thread! Thank you all who've contributed, I've learned a lot. Among other things:

This last realisation is also inspired by the wonderful concert I attended last Saturday. The Christian Müller organ of De Waalse Kerk had just gotten an overhaul by Flentrop (just in time for the 'Christian Müller-year') and it was given a first outing by the three Dutch Müller-organists-in-residence. (Jos van der Kooy (St.Bavo, Haarlem), Theo Jellema (Grote Kerk, Leeuwarden) and Jacques van Oortmerssen (Waalse Kerk, Amsterdam)) Van Oortmerssen played a very nice BWV582. And what a wonderful rich and warm sounding little organ it is.

(This concert was also being recorded, but I don't know for what purpose.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 08, 2013, 02:39:48 PM
Quote from: Drosera on November 07, 2013, 11:26:34 PM
Yay, I made it through this wonderful thread! Thank you all who've contributed, I've learned a lot. Among other things:


       
  • Even though there are still some wonderful sets to be had, I think the ones on my current not(-fully)-listened-to pile (Alain II & III, Koopman (Teldec), Walcha I) will tide me over for the near future.
  • Nobody likes Jean Guillou
  • I really should learn more about the technical side of the organ, in order to appreciate it more. Learn to know my prestants from my bombardes.
  • I should go to listen to real-life organs far more often.
This last realisation is also inspired by the wonderful concert I attended last Saturday. The Christian Müller organ of De Waalse Kerk had just gotten an overhaul by Flentrop (just in time for the 'Christian Müller-year') and it was given a first outing by the three Dutch Müller-organists-in-residence. (Jos van der Kooy (St.Bavo, Haarlem), Theo Jellema (Grote Kerk, Leeuwarden) and Jacques van Oortmerssen (Waalse Kerk, Amsterdam)) Van Oortmerssen played a very nice BWV582. And what a wonderful rich and warm sounding little organ it is.

(This concert was also being recorded, but I don't know for what purpose.)

Drosera, welcome here.
It must have been a a great concert.

Funny you mention Van Oortmerssen in BWV 582.
It evoked some fine memories.

Quote from: Marc on July 29, 2009, 12:02:47 PM
[....]I'm in heaven after attending a recital of Jacques van Oortmerssen, playing the Schnitger/Hinsz organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL.
Buxtehude, Scheidemann, Mendelssohn, J.L. Krebs, and the finishing touch was .... the eternal Pasacaglia & Thema Fugatum in C minor, BWV 582.[....]

Van Oortmerssen has also played this piece on 'your' Müller organ for the 6th Volume of his (so far) unfinished integral.

(http://thumbnails103.imagebam.com/28758/10e7ca287579430.jpg) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/10e7ca287579430)

http://www.amazon.de/ORGAN-WORKS-VOL-Oortmerssen-Jacques/dp/B00005RZZJ/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Drosera on November 10, 2013, 05:37:25 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 08, 2013, 02:39:48 PM
Drosera, welcome here.
It must have been a a great concert.

Funny you mention Van Oortmerssen in BWV 582.
It evoked some fine memories.

Van Oortmerssen has also played this piece on 'your' Müller organ for the 6th Volume of his (so far) unfinished integral.

Marc, thanks for the welcome!

It was a very nice concert, which featured composers from Steigleder and Weckmann to Hindemith. I was surprised to hear how well Hindemith works on a baroque organ.

I must say I'm still undecided on whether to start collecting that Van Oortmerssen cycle. His choice of organs appears excellent, but there's is a kind of reserved quality in his playing that might make it work better in concert rather than on a recording.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 10, 2013, 09:34:17 AM
Quote from: Drosera on November 10, 2013, 05:37:25 AM
[....]
I must say I'm still undecided on whether to start collecting that Van Oortmerssen cycle. His choice of organs appears excellent, but there's is a kind of reserved quality in his playing that might make it work better in concert rather than on a recording.

Well, then this issue might be to your likings:
Van Oortmerssen plays Bach, Mozart, Mendelssohn, Dupré AND Van Oortmerssen at the organ of Sint Bavo, Haarlem.

(http://103.imagebam.com/download/ytI3T2F1G2NY93MACbpC5w/28803/288025700/Van%20Oortmerssen%20-%20Live%20at%20Bavo%20Haarlem.jpg)

http://www.amazon.de/Jacques-Van-Oortmerssen-Live-Bavo/dp/B000G0O4UG
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Drosera on November 10, 2013, 10:25:12 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 10, 2013, 09:34:17 AM
Well, then this issue might be to your likings:
Van Oortmerssen plays Bach, Mozart, Mendelssohn, Dupré AND Van Oortmerssen at the organ of Sint Bavo, Haarlem.


Yeah, I had come across that one as well. Why not, it's interesting enough. (By the way, for second-hand stuff, amazon.co.uk usually has the friendlier shipping costs to The Netherlands.  ;) ) Thanks!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Kontrapunctus on November 16, 2013, 06:26:16 PM
I'm enjoying this multi-channel SACD set from Aeolus. 8 Silbermann organs played by 4 organists. The sound is incredibly clear, and the performances are top notch.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-n59eJ7n1sGU/UPOfqRNQZdI/AAAAAAAAFKQ/XrdTUhh41MM/s1600/000.jpg)

For more info: http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae-en/All-Discs/AE10761-Bach-Johann-Sebastian-Complete-Organ-Works (http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae-en/All-Discs/AE10761-Bach-Johann-Sebastian-Complete-Organ-Works)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 17, 2013, 02:39:04 AM
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on November 16, 2013, 06:26:16 PM
I'm enjoying this multi-channel SACD set from Aeolus. 8 Silbermann organs played by 4 organists. The sound is incredibly clear, and the performances are top notch.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-n59eJ7n1sGU/UPOfqRNQZdI/AAAAAAAAFKQ/XrdTUhh41MM/s1600/000.jpg)

For more info: http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae-en/All-Discs/AE10761-Bach-Johann-Sebastian-Complete-Organ-Works (http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae-en/All-Discs/AE10761-Bach-Johann-Sebastian-Complete-Organ-Works)

Got it for a reduced price in autumn 2012, and I agree about the high level of this Kooiman & pupils boxset. I consider it one of the best integrals available.

But it's pricey, compared to many others.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Kontrapunctus on November 17, 2013, 06:06:11 PM
Yeah, I paid about $240 for it. I have a nice multi-channel SACD system, so why not?  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Anhang on November 23, 2013, 09:19:33 AM
Pleased to find this forum.  It's always nice to know that there are others as obsessed with Bach's organ music and recordings as I am.  Of the many integral sets that I have, Alain II is probably my favorite, with Rübsam on Philips and Herrick quite high on the list.  And in the "first love is the best love" category, I still have affection for the Chapuis set.

The latest addition to the collection is the Aeolus set.  My first impressions weren't very good, mainly from the last couple of discs.  Klapprott's tempos are quite slow in BWV 540 and 538.  The opening pedal note in 540 is annoyingly loud, and the whole toccata seems in danger of grinding to a halt in several places.  But I am finding much to like elsewhere in the set and agree that the sound is exceptional.

This set covers many anhang/deest works and references Emans numbers in many cases.  I haven't been able to find an Emans listing and cross-reference anywhere.  I've compared the first few bars of these with other recordings (particularly Weinberger), and many of them appear to be from the Rudorff, Rinck and other familiar collections.  There are a number that I can't match up, though.  Does anyone know of an Emans listing somewhere?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 24, 2013, 06:41:42 AM
Quote from: Anhang on November 23, 2013, 09:19:33 AM
[....]
Does anyone know of an Emans listing somewhere?

Anhang, welcome!
Always nice to have another lover of Bach's organ music visiting the forum once in a while.

Here's a rather reliable list of the BWV Anhang, including references to (most of the?) Emans catalogue numbers:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/List-BWVAnh.htm
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Anhang on November 24, 2013, 10:21:06 AM
Thanks for the welcome, Marc!

Unfortunately, the Emans numbers in the Aeolus set don't match up with the numbers on the bach-cantatas site.  For example, the set includes Erhalt uns, Herr, bei deinem Wort listed as Emans 63.  The bach-cantatas site shows it as Emans 62.  It's similar for several others that I've checked.  The numbers are close, but off by 1 or 2.  Are there different versions of Emans' list?  I need to find his book.

From reading the Aeolus booklet - which is quite good, by the way - it appears that Emans assigned numbers to works in the Rinck (aka Yale) Collection, including many lacking an explicit attribution to Bach.  But I gather that he did not assign numbers to the works in the Rudorff Collection, but did for some works that already had Anh II or Anh III numbers.

So it's all pretty confusing.  It's not nearly as bad as trying to figure out all the Pachelbel catalogs, but it seems to be moving in that direction.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 25, 2013, 08:06:03 AM
Quote from: Anhang on November 24, 2013, 10:21:06 AM
Thanks for the welcome, Marc!

Unfortunately, the Emans numbers in the Aeolus set don't match up with the numbers on the bach-cantatas site.  For example, the set includes Erhalt uns, Herr, bei deinem Wort listed as Emans 63.  The bach-cantatas site shows it as Emans 62.  It's similar for several others that I've checked.  The numbers are close, but off by 1 or 2.  Are there different versions of Emans' list?  I need to find his book.

From reading the Aeolus booklet - which is quite good, by the way - it appears that Emans assigned numbers to works in the Rinck (aka Yale) Collection, including many lacking an explicit attribution to Bach.  But I gather that he did not assign numbers to the works in the Rudorff Collection, but did for some works that already had Anh II or Anh III numbers.

So it's all pretty confusing.  It's not nearly as bad as trying to figure out all the Pachelbel catalogs, but it seems to be moving in that direction.

I must admit that I had not dug that deep into the matter, but after reading your contribution my guess is that, like many other catalogues, the Emans add-ons are subjected to changes and renumbering. :-\
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 26, 2013, 01:14:44 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 25, 2013, 08:06:03 AM
I must admit that I had not dug that deep into the matter, but after reading your contribution my guess is that, like many other catalogues, the Emans add-ons are subjected to changes and renumbering. :-\

Even I must admit, that I have not been that concerned about the Anhang list. A short study of the Anhang shows, that almost all the listed works are either lost or spurious/composed by other hands, so not much is left, which might be by Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 26, 2013, 01:34:17 PM
Quote from: Anhang on November 23, 2013, 09:19:33 AM
Pleased to find this forum.  It's always nice to know that there are others as obsessed with Bach's organ music and recordings as I am.  Of the many integral sets that I have, Alain II is probably my favorite, with Rübsam on Philips and Herrick quite high on the list.  And in the "first love is the best love" category, I still have affection for the Chapuis set.

Welcome Anhang, we are pleased, that you join the forum.

That "the first love is the best love" is an old truth. I suppose I am some years older than you, because my first love  - in this context - were Helmut Walcha and Walter Kraft, but I greatly appreciate Alain II and Rübsam I.

Quote from: Anhang
The latest addition to the collection is the Aeolus set.  My first impressions weren't very good, mainly from the last couple of discs.  Klapprott's tempos are quite slow in BWV 540 and 538.  The opening pedal note in 540 is annoyingly loud, and the whole toccata seems in danger of grinding to a halt in several places.  But I am finding much to like elsewhere in the set and agree that the sound is exceptional.

Yes. unfortunately Klapprott - who is the least impressive of the four organists - has got some of the warhorses, but none of the sets I know is ideal all through. That is too much to ask for.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 26, 2013, 01:47:21 PM
Quote from: Drosera on November 10, 2013, 05:37:25 AM
It was a very nice concert, which featured composers from Steigleder and Weckmann to Hindemith. I was surprised to hear how well Hindemith works on a baroque organ.

I nourish the hope, that someone one day would try to play Ludus Tonalis on the organ, preferably a baroque organ in equal tuning e.g. Müller organ in Harlem or Schnitger organ in Alkmaar..

Quote from: Drosera
I must say I'm still undecided on whether to start collecting that Van Oortmerssen cycle. His choice of organs appears excellent, but there's is a kind of reserved quality in his playing that might make it work better in concert rather than on a recording.

Reserved quality is not the worst thing in the interpretation of Bachs organ music. I have acquired all nine volumes of his (ongoing?) cycle, and do not regret.

Welcome to the forum. Hope you will enjoy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Anhang on November 30, 2013, 09:28:00 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 26, 2013, 01:14:44 PM
Even I must admit, that I have not been that concerned about the Anhang list. A short study of the Anhang shows, that almost all the listed works are either lost or spurious/composed by other hands, so not much is left, which might be by Bach.

I hadn't paid much attention to it either, other than to note what different organists chose to include in their "complete" sets.  But the Aeolus set is the first of mine with some works labelled solely by Emans number, so that's what drew my attention to them.  I was curious whether these were the same works that others had performed under a different name.  I've done a bit of research on it in the past week, including a perusal of Emans' book at the Library of Congress.  A brief summary, for what it's worth:

Emans' 1997 book is a thematic catalog of organ chorales "of doubtful authenticity".  It was made in preparation for the New Bach Edition and includes works doubted both for stylistic reasons as well as alternate attributions in other sources.  His entries include incipits and a complete list of references.  He indicates the presumed composer, if known, but doesn't go into any stylistic reasons for inclusion in the list.

There are 198 entries.  Some 79 of those are for works, or variants thereof, that are included in the main BWV listing.  These include those in the Neumeister collection as well as the usual suspects in the 690-765 range.  There are 35 listings of works in the Anhang, while the remaining 84 are "deest".

Included are all 7 of the so-called Rudorff chorales (of which 6 are deest's and the other is a variant of 743) and all but two of the Rinck collection at Yale.  Emans provides a handy summary of the attributions at the end.  Krebs is named for 16 entries, Walther for 21, Pachelbel for 7, etc.  Better than half of the list do not have a presumed composer.

The listing is alphabetical by chorale title, and there are multiple entries for most titles.  This is what confused me in my earlier post.  There are 3 entries for Erhalt uns, Herr, bei deinem Wort, numbers 61-63.  Emans 62 is Anhang 40, as shown on the bach-cantatas site, but the Aeolus set includes Emans 63, which is a "deest".  The references to Emans numbers on the bach-cantatas Anhang list are correct, but limited to only those Emans listings that are in the anhang.

I haven't found a simple Emans listing on the web.  Should you find yourself curious about the list or a specific work, go to

http://www.bach-digital.de/editor_form_search-simpleworks.xml?XSL.editor.source.new=true (http://www.bach-digital.de/editor_form_search-simpleworks.xml?XSL.editor.source.new=true)

The Emans list is one of the "Catalogue raisonné" choices on the English(?)  version of the page.  You can then add the number in the "Number in catalogue raisonné" box or just hit search to get a complete listing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 01, 2013, 01:52:38 AM
Quote from: Anhang on November 30, 2013, 09:28:00 AM
[....]
I haven't found a simple Emans listing on the web.  Should you find yourself curious about the list or a specific work, go to

http://www.bach-digital.de/editor_form_search-simpleworks.xml?XSL.editor.source.new=true (http://www.bach-digital.de/editor_form_search-simpleworks.xml?XSL.editor.source.new=true)

The Emans list is one of the "Catalogue raisonné" choices on the English(?)  version of the page.  You can then add the number in the "Number in catalogue raisonné" box or just hit search to get a complete listing.

I knew that site, put it in me favourites list and then .... I never did anything with it, lazy bugger that I am. :P

(I'm still relying on BOOKS. (http://106.imagebam.com/download/cVSOpdcdowFjJnLLjvh0BA/29210/292096184/imagesCAQ1TSSG.jpg)]

Thanks for reminding me; the site is based on the Göttinger Bach Catalogue of Sources and I think it's a very handy search assistant for any Bach lover!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: GuybrushThreepwood on December 01, 2013, 06:49:18 AM
Anyone has any comments of this 3 disc sets from André Isoire re released by La
Dolce Volta?

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/01/9equ6uby.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 01, 2013, 07:08:32 AM
Quote from: GuybrushThreepwood on December 01, 2013, 06:49:18 AM
Anyone has any comments of this 3 disc sets from André Isoire re released by La
Dolce Volta?

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/01/9equ6uby.jpg)

yes, three comments: YUMM. YUMM. YUMM. Love it! The rest is being re-issued as well... his AOF is my favorite on the organ... but these concertos are top notch and not the most commonly heard fare.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: GuybrushThreepwood on December 01, 2013, 08:19:26 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 01, 2013, 07:08:32 AM
yes, three comments: YUMM. YUMM. YUMM. Love it! The rest is being re-issued as well... his AOF is my favorite on the organ... but these concertos are top notch and not the most commonly heard fare.

Great!!! I have enjoyed the set very much, but I do not have any other experience in Bach organs recordings.

Do you know how many discs are going to be reissued?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 01, 2013, 09:02:36 AM
Quote from: GuybrushThreepwood on December 01, 2013, 08:19:26 AM
Great!!! I have enjoyed the set very much, but I do not have any other experience in Bach organs recordings.

Do you know how many discs are going to be reissued?

Apparently the reissue of his 15cd-box is already officially OOP. :(

(http://107.imagebam.com/download/6IiXQQmFW6Xh5go79xgB9g/29217/292160663/Bach-Isoir-15CD.jpg)

Anyway, I haven't been listening to Isoir's Bach for a long time, since he isn't my favourite, BUT .... yes, the organ arrangements of the concertos BWV 1052, 1053 and 1059 belong to his better recordings IMHO, together with Die Kunst der Fuge (mentioned by Jens) and the 3rd part of the Clavier-Übung (AKA Orgelmesse), played on the magnificent Gabler organ in the Weingarten Basilika. Only the latter piece was part of that 15cd-box btw.

Tastes differ of course, but for a more convincing 'French approach' I would suggest the boxset by Olivier Vernet, who also plays arrangements of the concertos for multiple keyboard instruments, together with a.o. his teacher, the late Marie-Claire Alain.

http://www.amazon.com/LOeuvre-Pour-Orgue-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0013V9ROA/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 01, 2013, 02:21:21 PM
Quote from: GuybrushThreepwood on December 01, 2013, 08:19:26 AM
Great!!! I have enjoyed the set very much, but I do not have any other experience in Bach organs recordings.

Do you know how many discs are going to be reissued?

All of the discs will be re-issued by La Dolce Volta... in multiple sets over the next year. Some of them are already available on Qobuz as downloads and streams.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Anhang on December 02, 2013, 06:12:33 AM
Is anyone familiar with an integral set by Karol Golebiowski?  It's on Amazon for download only, in 7 volumes covering 14 discs.  It was recorded around 1990 on Selene Records, and he apparently had an earlier LP-only set.  Other than that, I don't recall any reviews or comments on it.  Is it worth exploring?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: marvinbrown on December 04, 2013, 12:01:28 PM


  Bach fans I am really excited! Today I was very very fortunate to pick up a used copy, the CDs are in very good condition of this:

  [asin]B0000041KD[/asin]

  I am familiar with Hurford as I have the 2CD Great Organ works of J.S. Bach compilation. This will be my 2nd complete set to complement Ton Koopman's set.

  marvin
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 04, 2013, 03:24:23 PM
Quote from: Anhang on December 02, 2013, 06:12:33 AM
Is anyone familiar with an integral set by Karol Golebiowski?  It's on Amazon for download only, in 7 volumes covering 14 discs.  It was recorded around 1990 on Selene Records, and he apparently had an earlier LP-only set.  Other than that, I don't recall any reviews or comments on it.  Is it worth exploring?

Never heard of him. Polish recordings have always been difficult to get hold of in my country.
I see that he is a pupil of Joachim Grubich and Lionel Rogg, two great names, and that his set is available at Selene´s homepage.  Hmmmm...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Drosera on December 05, 2013, 06:05:12 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 26, 2013, 01:47:21 PM

Reserved quality is not the worst thing in the interpretation of Bachs organ music. I have acquired all nine volumes of his (ongoing?) cycle, and do not regret.

Welcome to the forum. Hope you will enjoy.

Thanks for the welcome! You're probably right that a reserved quality is probably not a bad thing in these works. In fact, the choice of instruments alone might be enough to persuade me. I'm starting to notice that I'm quite sensitive to instruments used. For example, I already seem to have a preference for Alain III over Alain II. Her playing might be slightly more involving in her second cycle, but I really dislike those neo-baroque organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: marvinbrown on December 05, 2013, 06:49:35 AM

  I have been listening to the first 2 CDs from this set and the first thing that struck me was the clarity of the harmonic lines, when compared to the embellished Koompan set (Teldec).  Hurford makes the organ "SING" with all its glory.  One amazon.com reviewer points to the "airiness" of this recording.  The music breathes and has a life of it own and is very pleasant on the ears. I really like this:

  [asin]B0000041KD[/asin]

  marvin



Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 05, 2013, 01:33:46 PM
Quote from: Drosera on December 05, 2013, 06:05:12 AM
..... I already seem to have a preference for Alain III over Alain II. Her playing might be slightly more involving in her second cycle, but I really dislike those neo-baroque organs.

I have to say, that I am more and more feeling in a similar way. What particularly annoys me, is the equal tuning of many of these neobaroque organs, adding an unwanted metallic quality to the sound..   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Anhang on December 05, 2013, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 04, 2013, 03:24:23 PM
Never heard of him. Polish recordings have always been difficult to get hold of in my country.
I see that he is a pupil of Joachim Grubich and Lionel Rogg, two great names, and that his set is available at Selene´s homepage.  Hmmmm...

If I try to "add to cart" on any of the Golebiowski discs on Selene's site, it responds that my shopping cart is empty.  I also can't find any trace of the actual CDs on Ebay, the various Amazon sites and my usual European merchants.  I think it's all very much oop, at least in physical form.

I purchased the volume 3 on mp3, with the toccatas & fugues, and gave the F major a try.  I very much enjoyed the toccata, and was doing fine with the fugue until 44 seconds in, when there was a horrible static noise that startled the >:D out of me.  Fortunately, I didn't have a beverage in hand or I would have lost it.  You can hear it in the sound bite on Amazon's site as well.  I sent a note to Selene about it, but I'll be surprised if I get a reply.

I think Golebiowski is worth listening to, but at reduced volume and without any sharp instruments in hand.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 05, 2013, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: Anhang on December 05, 2013, 01:55:37 PM
If I try to "add to cart" on any of the Golebiowski discs on Selene's site, it responds that my shopping cart is empty.  I also can't find any trace of the actual CDs on Ebay, the various Amazon sites and my usual European merchants.  I think it's all very much oop, at least in physical form.

Seems as if you must order by email

Orders can be placed via the company's website www.selenemusic.com, in exceptional cases, by phone +48 (22) 4460539 or +48 506182220.
After placing his/her order the customer receives an e-mail message confirming its receipt.


Having listened to some of the short clips on amazon, I do not find him that exciting.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on December 05, 2013, 05:51:46 PM
Quote from: Drosera on December 05, 2013, 06:05:12 AM
Thanks for the welcome! You're probably right that a reserved quality is probably not a bad thing in these works. In fact, the choice of instruments alone might be enough to persuade me. I'm starting to notice that I'm quite sensitive to instruments used. For example, I already seem to have a preference for Alain III over Alain II. Her playing might be slightly more involving in her second cycle, but I really dislike those neo-baroque organs.

My fault with Alain II (must note I have not heard a note of Alain III) lay in the feeling that for much of the chorales I had the feeling she was doing a chore--uninvolved, in fact.  Well, the contract says the complete organ works and I must complete the contract.   I must confess that I'm simply not enough into organs to find their neobaroqueness a negative characteristic.  For that matter, what the deuce is a neobaroque organ, exactly?  The term suggests more than one thing to me, and I would appreciate a bit of clarity.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 06, 2013, 12:42:16 AM
Speaking of Olivier Vernet (somebody is bound to have been speaking of him at some point, in this thread): I'll hear him tonight. Alas, in a French program, not in Bach. Saw him briefly last night, doing the registration work at 11pm, all alone in the large concert hall. Kind of a bummer job, getting only the way-early and way-late time slots in any Konzerthaus to do your prep-work.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: marvinbrown on December 06, 2013, 02:32:46 AM


  Bach organ fans, I need your help please......so far I have 2 sets of Bach Organ works: Ton Koopman on Teldec and the recently acquired Peter Hurford set on London.  Both sets differ from one another and I am now very interested in hearing your views on the organ works played on historical instruments. Is the sound radically and distinguishably different from modern organs? To be honest I tend to prefer the "airiness" of the Hurford set to the Ton Koopman set. I am wondering if an HIP would have more of this airy quality? In particular I have been listening to samples of the Weinberger set but because the samples are so short and through my less than impressive laptop speakers it is difficult for me to make an informed decision.

  Any advice you might have or insights would be greatly appreciated.

  PS: I'd like to get my hands on a 3rd set of Bach organ works  ;)

  marvin 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 06, 2013, 03:14:58 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 06, 2013, 02:32:46 AM

  Bach organ fans, I need your help please......so far I have 2 sets of Bach Organ works: Ton Koopman on Teldec and the recently acquired Peter Hurford set on London.  Both sets differ from one another and I am now very interested in hearing your views on the organ works played on historical instruments. Is the sound radically and distinguishably different from modern organs? To be honest I tend to prefer the "airiness" of the Hurford set to the Ton Koopman set. I am wondering if an HIP would have more of this airy quality? In particular I have been listening to samples of the Weinberger set but because the samples are so short and through my less than impressive laptop speakers it is difficult for me to make an informed decision.

  Any advice you might have or insights would be greatly appreciated.

  PS: I'd like to get my hands on a 3rd set of Bach organ works  ;)

  marvin

Yes, the sound is radically and distinguishably different from modern organs... but so are, often, organs from different makers or restored organs from older (i.e. recorded in so-so restorated condition) instruments.... and then it's a matter of maker. French / Swiss / West German (Andreas) Silbermann organs, although from the correct time period, sound quite different than East / North German (Gottfried) Silbermann organs. The latter were only partly available during the communist regime curtaining itself off from the West.

I'm not sure how much I can determine from what you write whether that's definitely the step you're looking for, as far as you sound ideal is concerned. But what is true is that most historical instruments have a lightness and absence of all bombast... often you can hear the mechanics... the sound tends to be less metallic and more reedy (although that's a gross simplification that might make most organ lovers howl in exasperation).

Here's an overview of Bach Organ Cycles from which you can pick your third cycle: A Survey of Bach Organ Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html) which might be helpful.
On MousOver on the picture for some of the cycles, you'll find a list with the organs used.

The ones that would seem to be natural and easily-enough attainable choices, if you pursue the 'authentic instrument' route are:

Gerhard Weinberger
Marie-Claire Alain III
Silbermann Cycle on Berlin Classics

Of those, I'd probably chose MCAIII first, have an emotional soft spot for the Silbermann cycle (old fashioned and sound a bit iffy here and there), and wouldn't want to miss Weinberger because of its vigorous completeness.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 06, 2013, 03:50:50 AM
In practice I agree with most of what Jens writes. Like him I would tend to prefer Alain III. But there are two more sets to be considered:

Bernard Foccroulle (Ricercare), very introvert interpretation, but a number of important historical organs (Arp Schnitger, Holzhey among others)

and

the set (Aeolus) by the late Ewald Kooiman and pupils, also noteworthy for its use of a number of important historical organs (mainly Andreas Silbermann school).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 06, 2013, 04:02:31 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 06, 2013, 03:50:50 AM
In practice I agree with most of what Jens writes. Like him I would tend to prefer Alain III. But there are two more sets to be considered:

Bernard Foccroulle (Ricercare), very introvert interpretation, but a number of important historical organs (Arp Schnitger, Holzhey among others)

and

the set (Aeolus) by the late Ewald Kooiman and pupils, also noteworthy for its use of a number of important historical organs (mainly Andreas Silbermann school).

Right... I've not heard all (or even most) of the Kooiman & Pupils set (making my way through it on Qobuz); ditto Bernard Foccroulle. I've kept it narrowly to Gottfried Silbermann surveys... but even as I say it I realize I don't know off the top of my head which instruments Alain actually plays on that set. But those that she was not able to get to when recording cycle No.2, which was the rationale for recording the whole shabang a third time.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on December 06, 2013, 05:04:25 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 10, 2013, 06:39:00 AM
You have to distinguish between the two Silbermann brothers, Gottfried and Andreas.

Gottfried Silbermann´s organs are very much cast in Middle-German baroque style and according to some well suited for the execution of Bach´s later organ works - along with organs by Trost and Hildebrandt. For Bach´s more youthful works composed at a time when he was stylistically influenced by Buxtehude and Reincken among others, the North-German organ type of Arp Schnitger may be better suited.

Andreas Silbermann and his son Johan Andreas Silberman built organs very much in French baroque organ style, and this is a kind of sound ideal, which may be more questionable in relation to Bach´s organ works. The organs have got a spendid sound, and I do not think Bach would have minded his works played on them. It is just that the Schnitger and Gottfried Silbermann organs sound more idiomatic.
I wanted to bump this post because I found it so interesting and helpful. I really like the sound of the G.S. organs on the Berlin set even though they're not my "go-to" recordings. I thought I read somewhere that they weren't necessarily properly restored at the time of the recordings. The Foccroulle set has a wonderful variety of instruments. It's a real journey instrument-wise (Schott is another name I notice in addition to GS and the others mentioned). I've been meaning to find some kind of coffee table book on organs...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: marvinbrown on December 06, 2013, 05:20:43 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 06, 2013, 03:14:58 AM
Yes, the sound is radically and distinguishably different from modern organs... but so are, often, organs from different makers or restored organs from older (i.e. recorded in so-so restorated condition) instruments.... and then it's a matter of maker. French / Swiss / West German (Andreas) Silbermann organs, although from the correct time period, sound quite different than East / North German (Gottfried) Silbermann organs. The latter were only partly available during the communist regime curtaining itself off from the West.

I'm not sure how much I can determine from what you write whether that's definitely the step you're looking for, as far as you sound ideal is concerned. But what is true is that most historical instruments have a lightness and absence of all bombast... often you can hear the mechanics... the sound tends to be less metallic and more reedy (although that's a gross simplification that might make most organ lovers howl in exasperation).

Here's an overview of Bach Organ Cycles from which you can pick your third cycle: A Survey of Bach Organ Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html) which might be helpful.
On MousOver on the picture for some of the cycles, you'll find a list with the organs used.

The ones that would seem to be natural and easily-enough attainable choices, if you pursue the 'authentic instrument' route are:

Gerhard Weinberger
Marie-Claire Alain III
Silbermann Cycle on Berlin Classics

Of those, I'd probably chose MCAIII first, have an emotional soft spot for the Silbermann cycle (old fashioned and sound a bit iffy here and there), and wouldn't want to miss Weinberger because of its vigorous completeness.

  Thank you so much jlaurson  8) for this very informative post and the link you provide is very helpful. What you have written in bold above is exactly the sound that I desire most for my 3rd set. I shall look into your suggestions.

  marvin
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 06, 2013, 07:20:36 AM
Well, if you're interested in Bach on (historic) instruments, then I would suggest you'd forget about integral boxsets.
There are so many beautiful recordings on old (restored/rebuilt) organs with organists who never made an integral.

Organs made by the Schnitger family, Joachim Wagner, Zacharias Hildebrand, Friedrich Stellwagen, Albertus Anthony Hinsz, T.H.G. Trost, Christoph Treutmann, Dom Bédos de Celles, Italian organs, Iberian organs, et cetera and et al, they're all very interesting and worthwhile checking out. Some may be better suited for Bach, but the instruments are all unique in their own way.

Considering 'individual' and very good Bach recordings, you might want to check out the first post of this thread (written by Premont):

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,638.msg12494.html#msg12494

And for a cheap (FREE!) download possibility of a more or less complete Bach, played by James Kibbie on some famous German baroque organs, here's an interesting (also earlier mentioned) possibility, with a list of the used organs:

http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/organs/index.htm
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 06, 2013, 07:23:29 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 06, 2013, 12:42:16 AM
Speaking of Olivier Vernet (somebody is bound to have been speaking of him at some point, in this thread): I'll hear him tonight. Alas, in a French program, not in Bach. Saw him briefly last night, doing the registration work at 11pm, all alone in the large concert hall. Kind of a bummer job, getting only the way-early and way-late time slots in any Konzerthaus to do your prep-work.

Jens, enjoy yourself!
I hope you'll have a good concert.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 06, 2013, 07:46:31 AM
I've heard three things by Golebiowski - Art of Fugue, Brahms op 122 and Mozart KV 608. I thought the Mozart and Bach were pretty glib. I liked the tough unsentimental approach to the Brahms.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 06, 2013, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 06, 2013, 07:46:31 AM
I've heard three things by Golebiowski - Art of Fugue, Brahms op 122 and Mozart KV 608. I thought the Mozart and Bach were pretty glib. I liked the tough unsentimental approach to the Brahms.

What does "glib" mean?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 06, 2013, 10:30:52 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 06, 2013, 09:54:16 AM
What does "glib" mean?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=glib
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 06, 2013, 11:16:55 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 06, 2013, 10:30:52 AM
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=glib

Thanks.  :) It is a question of knowing the right dictionary.

So glib = Showing little thought; marked by a lack of intellectual depth.

This is also my impression from the clips I heard at Amazon´s website.
Even if short clips must be judged with caution, the overall playing style is often evident.

I also think the playing lacked emotional depth.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on December 06, 2013, 12:25:17 PM
I downloaded the Kibbie cycle, but could never get myself to finish it:  sounded rather plodding and unimaginative to me. 

The only reason I would not suggest the Vernet cycle is because of price: it seems to be worth its weight in gold now that it is OOP.

I rather liked the Hanssler cycle by various organists,  which is now available on its own.   

I have found that cycles organized by sort of chronological order of composition (in as much as that can not really be determined for many of the organ works), with their mix of genres,  appeal to me more than those grouped by genre, with chorales all lumped together,  fugues all lumped together, etc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 06, 2013, 12:34:09 PM
What do you guys think of this? I like it. The Wedge prelude and fugue by Ole Karsten Sundlisaeter. I was drawn to it when I noticed a positive comment by Ketil Haugsand.

http://www.youtube.com/v/DqUVM4D93FMhttp://www.youtube.com/v/oVFpDJFWgfk

He's put the D minor trio sonata on youtube too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 06, 2013, 12:48:12 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 06, 2013, 12:25:17 PM
I downloaded the Kibbie cycle, but could never get myself to finish it:  sounded rather plodding and unimaginative to me. 

Yes,Kibbie is nothing to write home about. And in mp3 sound the historical organs do not sound the way they deserve.

At the moment Vernet costs 70 Euro at JPC for 19 CDs, which is 3,7 Euro pr. CD.
It is unfair to compare this with the prices of Brilliant and Sony bargain boxes, and I dare to say that Vernet offers full value for money.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on December 06, 2013, 12:56:54 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 06, 2013, 12:48:12 PM


At the moment Vernet costs 70 Euro at JPC for 19 CDs, which is 3,7 Euro pr. CD. It is unfair to compare this with the prices of Brilliant and Sony bargain boxes, and I dare to say that he offers full value for money.

The last time I looked, the cheapest offer for the Vernet set on Amazon US Marketplace was slightly above $200US, which I don't expect anyone to pay.     But if it's available for 70 Euros,  then I'd say everyone who does not have it should jump on it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 06, 2013, 01:26:57 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 06, 2013, 12:34:09 PM
What do you guys think of this? I like it. The Wedge prelude and fugue by Ole Karsten Sundlisaeter. I was drawn to it when I noticed a positive comment by Ketil Haugsand.

http://www.youtube.com/v/DqUVM4D93FMhttp://www.youtube.com/v/oVFpDJFWgfk


There is an error at youtube as to the prelude but the fugue comes through.

His style (articulation, tempo, stop changes) reminds me much of how this piece was played by late pre-authenticists like Franz Lehrndorfer and Heinz Wunderlich. Like them he suppresses the details and relies upon a certain accumulation of energy in the course of the piece. But he sounds also a bit technically insecure or nervous, and accordingly he cannot address all the energy in the direction he wants, something is lost in between. In principle I think his ideas are fine, but the realisation is not quite successful.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 06, 2013, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 06, 2013, 01:26:57 PM
There is an error at youtube as to the prelude but the fugue comes through.

His style (articulation, tempo, stop changes) reminds me much of how this piece was played by late pre-authenticists like Franz Lehrndorfer and Heinz Wunderlich. Like them he suppresses the details and relies upon a certain accumulation of energy in the course of the piece. But he sounds also a bit technically insecure or nervous, and accordingly he cannot address all the energy in the direction he wants, something is lost in between. In principle I think his ideas are fine, but the realisation is not quite successful.

It was the ecstatic energy which I found so thrilling. Your mentioning pre-HIP has made me keen to listen to Walcha. I recall the first recording as being quite ecstatic, fast, fussy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 07, 2013, 03:33:15 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 07, 2013, 02:38:22 AM
Fortunately a friend of mine manages OV... so I could make him have OV sign the booklet and not out myself as a pathetic groupie. But I wanted to be an organist as a kid, so I have an excuse for my infantile regression around organists.  ;D

(http://thumbnails106.imagebam.com/29346/245742293453272.jpg) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/245742293453272)

You must feel like a lucky little boy! ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 07, 2013, 03:39:19 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 06, 2013, 12:25:17 PM
I downloaded the Kibbie cycle, but could never get myself to finish it:  sounded rather plodding and unimaginative to me.

I understand.

Quote from: Jeffrey SmithThe only reason I would not suggest the Vernet cycle is because of price: it seems to be worth its weight in gold now that it is OOP.

Apparently (as Premont showed) the 'availability situation' differs per continent.

Quote from: Jeffrey SmithI rather liked the Hanssler cycle by various organists,  which is now available on its own.

Me, too.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith
I have found that cycles organized by sort of chronological order of composition (in as much as that can not really be determined for many of the organ works), with their mix of genres,  appeal to me more than those grouped by genre, with chorales all lumped together,  fugues all lumped together, etc.

Yes, I also prefer a 'concert program' organized disc, although I'm having less 'trouble' with entirely chorale-based recordings.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 07, 2013, 03:54:00 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 07, 2013, 03:33:15 AM
You must feel like a lucky little boy! ;)

:-)  Yes. Except I rather didn't like the recital... which is a pity. It did more to expose my organ-ignorance as far as French & romantic repertoire is concerned... and I probably wasn't appreciative enough of the difficulties of playing that 1912 Rieger monster... not inherently suited to Widor et al.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: marvinbrown on December 16, 2013, 03:43:49 AM


  THIS SET IS TO DIE FOR!!! :

  [asin]B0000041KD[/asin]

  The more I listen the more I want to listen.  I have been replaying CDs 10, 11 and 12!  It is far superior to the Ton Koopman set on Teldec. Koopman's embellishments get in the way. They obscure harmonic lines, passages, counterpoint.  Everything is so much clearer with Hurford.   For those interested Presto Classical is selling the FLAC (CD quality) of the Bach Hurford set for £50, which is what I paid for my used copy. The mp3 files sell for less.

    I'm still hunting for that 3rd set with the requirement that it be HIP. I have been referring to jlaurson's  8) web page but I still can't decide between Alain 3 or Weinberger (it would be nice to have the Art of the Fugue played on the organ  ;))??

  marvin 

 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: North Star on December 16, 2013, 04:37:39 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 16, 2013, 03:43:49 AM
    I'm still hunting for that 3rd set with the requirement that it be HIP. I have been referring to jlaurson's  8) web page but I still can't decide between Alain 3 or Weinberger (it would be nice to have the Art of the Fugue played on the organ  ;))??

  marvin

How about making a compromise and getting Foccroulle instead=  0:)
He has recorded Die Kunst der Fuge too, but it's not a part of the box.
[asin]B002JIBCRQ[/asin]
[asin]B003MY55BK[/asin]
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: marvinbrown on December 16, 2013, 06:58:57 AM
Quote from: North Star on December 16, 2013, 04:37:39 AM
How about making a compromise and getting Foccroulle instead=  0:)
He has recorded Die Kunst der Fuge too, but it's not a part of the box.
[asin]B002JIBCRQ[/asin]
[asin]B003MY55BK[/asin]

  I completely missed this one.  Thank you for recommending this.   :) I'll have to look into this set.

  marvin
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2013, 10:07:08 AM
Quote from: North Star on December 16, 2013, 04:37:39 AM
How about making a compromise and getting Foccroulle instead=  0:)
He has recorded Die Kunst der Fuge too, but it's not a part of the box.
[asin]B002JIBCRQ[/asin]
[asin]B003MY55BK[/asin]

I adore his art of the fugue, and I've been revisiting his Bach complete set recently. The Bach recordings are very early -- Art of Fugue is just three years old, some of the Bach is from the early 1980s. On the whole the big Bach box is a bit too middle of the road for me -- I appreciate the instruments he uses but of the performances I can't ever remember saying to myself "this is as good as the music can be" I'm hoping someone will think I'm wrong about that and show me what I've missed.

I want to like Foccroulle's recordings more -- on paper he's my sort of bloke -- serious, interested in cutting edge arts at the Aix en Provence  Festival, introverted, modest.

Art of Fugue is quite a different matter.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2013, 10:09:31 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 16, 2013, 03:43:49 AM

  THIS SET IS TO DIE FOR!!! :

  [asin]B0000041KD[/asin]

  The more I listen the more I want to listen.  I have been replaying CDs 10, 11 and 12!  It is far superior to the Ton Koopman set on Teldec. Koopman's embellishments get in the way. They obscure harmonic lines, passages, counterpoint.  Everything is so much clearer with Hurford.   For those interested Presto Classical is selling the FLAC (CD quality) of the Bach Hurford set for £50, which is what I paid for my used copy. The mp3 files sell for less.

    I'm still hunting for that 3rd set with the requirement that it be HIP. I have been referring to jlaurson's  8) web page but I still can't decide between Alain 3 or Weinberger (it would be nice to have the Art of the Fugue played on the organ  ;))??

  marvin 



Well, listen again to Koopman in BWV 656 and to Hurford in the same music and see if you still think that.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: marvinbrown on December 16, 2013, 10:29:34 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 16, 2013, 10:09:31 AM
Well, listen again to Koopman in BWV 656 and to Hurford in the same music and see if you still think that.

  Very well. I was referring to the sets as a whole. Now I am sure there will be some pieces here and there where Koopman is more impressive. Are there any other pieces where you prefer the Koopman over the Hurford? Or do you prefer the Koopman set as a whole to the Hurford?

  marvin
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on December 16, 2013, 10:38:50 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 16, 2013, 10:09:31 AM
Well, listen again to Koopman in BWV 656 and to Hurford in the same music and see if you still think that.

I agree that Koopman's 656 is a fantastic performance, so majestic and intense.  Hurford isn't exactly a "scrub" either with his very exciting performance. 

Of course, as Marvin points out, this is just one work.  Overall, I prefer Hurford; Koopman's never been my cup of tea whether it's on harpsichord, organ or directing choral works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 16, 2013, 11:31:09 AM
Maybe we need yet another poll -  :D

I had just a handful of Bach's organ works (including a 2-CD Hurford set) when I decided to buy the Koopman box set (suspect the price was $50 or less) - but recent discussion has piqued my interest for Vernet (now about $100 @ JPC, as already mentioned) - I've not heard any of his performances but for members who know aurally Koopman & Vernet, who might be your first choice?  Thanks - Dave :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2013, 11:34:20 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 16, 2013, 10:29:34 AM
  Very well. I was referring to the sets as a whole. Now I am sure there will be some pieces here and there where Koopman is more impressive. Are there any other pieces where you prefer the Koopman over the Hurford? Or do you prefer the Koopman set as a whole to the Hurford?

  marvin

One piece I listen to a lot by Koopman is the trio sonata BWV527. I just jumped in with that comment about the Bwv 656 because  coincidentally I'd heard both Koopman and Hurford play it today - I'm on a little Leipzig Chorale exploration.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2013, 11:40:49 AM
Quote from: Sammy on December 16, 2013, 10:38:50 AM
I agree that Koopman's 656 is a fantastic performance, so majestic and intense.  Hurford isn't exactly a "scrub" either with his very exciting performance. 

Of course, as Marvin points out, this is just one work.  Overall, I prefer Hurford; Koopman's never been my cup of tea whether it's on harpsichord, organ or directing choral works.

Hurford is tremedous towards the end of that chorale, whether he could have achieved the same effect at the end and played the rest at a slower pace, I just don't know.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2013, 10:32:56 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 16, 2013, 11:31:09 AM
Maybe we need yet another poll -  :D

I had just a handful of Bach's organ works (including a 2-CD Hurford set) when I decided to buy the Koopman box set (suspect the price was $50 or less) - but recent discussion has piqued my interest for Vernet (now about $100 @ JPC, as already mentioned) - I've not heard any of his performances but for members who know aurally Koopman & Vernet, who might be your first choice?  Thanks - Dave :)

The question is obviously very hard, so let me make a hypothesis for falsification Popper-style:

Vernet is excellent at big fugues, Koopman better at non-fugal music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 17, 2013, 10:27:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 16, 2013, 10:32:56 PM
The question is obviously very hard, so let me make a hypothesis for falsification Popper-style:

Vernet is excellent at big fugues, Koopman better at non-fugal music.

Thanks Mandryka - but at the moment Koopman is more frugal -  ;D 

But, since these are moderate sized boxes and if I did buy the Vernet, I'd sell off the other (just me and can't change -  :)) - Dave
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 17, 2013, 01:26:01 PM
Just thinking about the organists who have come up, Koopman, Vernet, Hurford, and Focroulle.

One place where I think Koopman is very fine is BWV 678, intense, poetic, serious, with gravitas, noble, inward looking. It's not a performance which is "strong" or exuberant, quite the opposite, but that's not necessarily a problem. A lot depends on how you respond to the ornamentation of course, I don't find what he does a hurdle. I prefer what Koopman does here to Vernet (which I'm glad to have), and to Foccroulle.

Hurford is also undoubtably excellent in BWV 678 in a different way, I wouldn't like to rank Koopman and Hurford here, both so different.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 17, 2013, 01:46:49 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 17, 2013, 10:27:23 AM
Thanks Mandryka - but at the moment Koopman is more frugal -  ;D 

But, since these are moderate sized boxes and if I did buy the Vernet, I'd sell off the other (just me and can't change -  :)) - Dave

Well, I could not resist the JPC offering which was 58.8 Euros w/o VAT, so about $81 - added 7 more CPO discs on sale (all < 10 Euros) to balance out that high shipping rate to the USA (12.99 Euros) - w/ a little holiday $ from my brothers & selling the Koopman box, I feel my price was about half of that amount - looking forward to hearing Vernet's performances.  Dave :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 18, 2013, 10:02:10 AM
I got George Ritchie in the mail, at last. Very curious, indeed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 18, 2013, 10:38:34 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 18, 2013, 10:02:10 AM
I got George Ritchie in the mail, at last. Very curious, indeed.

Please comment on his Art of Fugue when you've had a chance to hear it,
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 19, 2013, 03:39:20 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 18, 2013, 10:38:34 AM
Please comment on his Art of Fugue when you've had a chance to hear it,

Would, but that's not part of this set.
His KdF is on this DVD/CD set:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003PBLYBK.01.L.jpg)
J.S. BachDie Kunst der Fuge
George Ritchie, Christoph Wolff
Fugue State Films  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003PBLYBK/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003PBLYBK/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003PBLYBK/goodmusicguideuk-21)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 28, 2013, 12:10:04 AM
Over the past few weeks I've been listening to the Leipzig chorales, really with an eye for performance which reflect the original hymn poetically. This is the playlist I came up with:

651 Hurford, Knud Vad
652 Rübsam (Naxos)
663 Kraft, Vad
654 Rübsam (Naxos), Oster
655 Astronio
656 Koopman (Novalis)
657
658 Astronio
659 Rübsam (Naxos) , Knud Vad
660 Walcha (mono), Astronio
661 Rübsam (Naxos), Herrick
662 Weinberger
663 Leonhardt , Bryndorf
664
665 Rogg, Astronio
666 Rübsam (Naxos)
667 Rubsam (Naxos)
668 Knud Vad

Generally I was very pleased to find Knud Vad's set, I like the organ he uses a lot and I thought the interpretations were often sensitive and imaginative. I was disappointed by Ewald Kooiman on Aeolus. I thought the sound of the Johann Andreas Silberman organs sounded a bit funny in this music and I thought the interpretations were often lifeless.

I haven't found anything I really like in 657, I'll go back to it. I've ordered a late recording that Hurford made (on EMI Eminence) so I have some hopes left. Same story with 664, though Rubsam's on Naxos and Koopman's are certainly interesting -- sometime I'll revisit those to. The big mystery performance, so strange , is Astronio's 666. why does he play it like that?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: marvinbrown on December 30, 2013, 09:12:59 AM


  Oh come on.......come on! Weinberger or Alain 3 for an HIP set? HELP ME CHOOSE!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!

  marvin
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 30, 2013, 09:26:14 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 30, 2013, 09:12:59 AM

  Oh come on.......come on! Weinberger or Alain 3 for an HIP set? HELP ME CHOOSE!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!

  marvin

Difficult choice. Weinberger is more uneven than Alain, but his set is more complete and he uses a wide spectrum of interesting and well restored historical organs. Alain is generally the more musically satisfying. With a gun pointing towards my head: Of these two I would say Alain.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 30, 2013, 09:33:07 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on December 30, 2013, 09:12:59 AM

  Oh come on.......come on! Weinberger or Alain 3 for an HIP set? HELP ME CHOOSE!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!

  marvin

Foccroulle.

;)

Of the two mentioned: my guess is that you yourself might prefer Alain. Weinberger can be quite 'stiff' HIP sometimes.

And after buying Alain 3, you buy Weinberger's Kunst der Fuge, including the 'new' organ fantasia Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei uns hält BWV 1128.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 30, 2013, 09:41:58 AM
Here's what you should do.

If you buy Alain, then you get no AoF. So buy Weinberger's AoF first. Ask yourself if that style is so magical for you that you must hear more. If so, then buy Weinberger, be prepared to be disapponted by some and thrilled by some. You then buy Alain about one month later, when you've become pissed off by Weinberger's Leipzig chorales etc.

If you don't like the Weinberger Aof, buy Alain and Foccroulle's Art of Fugue.

Simples.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 30, 2013, 10:01:16 AM
No no NO!

Do THIS: buy the entire Bach organ caboodle, listen to the entire kit, then keep the stuff you like and sell the unworthy shambles at a grotesque price.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: marvinbrown on December 30, 2013, 10:05:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 30, 2013, 09:41:58 AM
Here's what you should do.

If you buy Alain, then you get no AoF. So buy Weinberger's AoF first. Ask yourself if that style is so magical for you that you must hear more. If so, then buy Weinberger, be prepared to be disapponted by some and thrilled by some. You then buy Alain about one month later, when you've become pissed off by Weinberger's Leipzig chorales etc.

If you don't like the Weinberger Aof, buy Alain and Foccroulle's Art of Fugue.

Simples.

  I think I am going with your final suggestion, Alain 3 and Foccroulle's AOF. I'll still be missing many of the variation pieces of the Weinberger set, but I would much rather have a more musically satisfying set than one that is more COMPLETE but more "uneven."

  marvin
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: marvinbrown on December 30, 2013, 10:08:58 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 30, 2013, 10:01:16 AM
No no NO!

Do THIS: buy the entire Bach organ caboodle, listen to the entire kit, then keep the stuff you like and sell the unworthy shambles at a grotesque price.

  I wish I could afford to do that.  :(

  marvin
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 30, 2013, 10:11:01 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 30, 2013, 10:01:16 AM
No no NO!

Do THIS: buy the entire Bach organ caboodle, listen to the entire kit, then keep the stuff you like and sell the unworthy shambles at a grotesque price.

That would be > 35 sets, and our poor Marvin will become caught in a trap like you and me. A most enriching trap BTW. And which of the sets you own, Marc, have you actually planned to e-bay? None, I suppose.

P.S.: If the question is about AoF, I much prefer Alain´s (and also Foccroulle´s ) to Weinberger´s, preferably Alain I, which never made it to CD, of course.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 30, 2013, 10:20:02 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 30, 2013, 10:11:01 AM
That would be > 35 sets, and our poor Marvin will become caught in a trap like you and me.

Silly me. I forgot about that. ;D

Quote from: (: premont :) on December 30, 2013, 10:11:01 AM
A most enriching trap BTW. And which of the sets you own, Marc, have you actually planned to e-bay? None, I suppose.

You read me too well.

Quote from: (: premont :) on December 30, 2013, 10:11:01 AM
P.S.: If the question is about AoF, I much prefer Alain´s (and also Foccroulle´s ) to Weinberger´s, preferably Alain I, which never made it to CD, of course.

Yes, but Marvin asked for HIP, and Weinberger is really HIP(PI) in the AoF, playing a vintage ramshackle piece of antique.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 30, 2013, 10:37:51 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 30, 2013, 10:20:02 AM
You read me too well.

Well, well.  :)

Quote from: Marc
Yes, but Marvin asked for HIP, and Weinberger is really HIP(PI) in the AoF, playing a vintage ramshackle piece of antique.

Sometimes HIP is a burden. But if it must be HIP I agree with you about Foccroulle but I would also consider Tachezi.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: marvinbrown on January 04, 2014, 05:48:41 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 30, 2013, 10:37:51 AM
Well, well.  :)

Sometimes HIP is a burden. But if it must be HIP I agree with you about Foccroulle but I would also consider Tachezi.

  Well (: premont:)   8) I hope HIP proves NOT to be a burden as I have just received this:
 

  [asin]B004RUF022[/asin]

  I decided to take jlaurson's  8) and Marc's 8) advice and opted for Alain 3 as my HIP set.  I'll supplement at a later date with Foccroulle's AOF.  I have fallen hard for Bach's Organ Works. I am now armed with Koopman, Hurford and Alain 3! I am very curious to hear how Alain 3 played on HI compares with Hurford.  Koopman and Hurford have proven to be radically different from one another. I can only hope that Alain 3 provides a new perspective on these works.

  marvin
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 04, 2014, 09:32:00 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 04, 2014, 05:48:41 AM
  Well (: premont:)   8) I hope HIP proves NOT to be a burden as I have just received this:
 

  [asin]B004RUF022[/asin]

  I decided to take jlaurson's  8) and Marc's 8) advice and opted for Alain 3 as my HIP set.  I'll supplement at a later date with Foccroulle's AOF.  I have fallen hard for Bach's Organ Works. I am now armed with Koopman, Hurford and Alain 3! I am very curious to hear how Alain 3 played on HI compares with Hurford.  Koopman and Hurford have proven to be radically different from one another. I can only hope that Alain 3 provides a new perspective on these works.

  marvin

Congrats!
It's a good set, and MC Alain isn't probably considered to be HIP-all-the-way. The chosen instruments are very HIP though. ;) It was a dream of her coming true to play Bach's organ oeuvre on these oldies but goldies. I think you'll find that she's somewhere 'in between' Koopman and Hurford. Enjoy!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 04, 2014, 09:46:28 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 04, 2014, 05:48:41 AM
  I decided to take jlaurson's  8) and Marc's 8) advice and opted for Alain 3 as my HIP set.  I'll supplement at a later date with Foccroulle's AOF.  I have fallen hard for Bach's Organ Works. I am now armed with Koopman, Hurford and Alain 3! I am very curious to hear how Alain 3 played on HI compares with Hurford.  Koopman and Hurford have proven to be radically different from one another. I can only hope that Alain 3 provides a new perspective on these works.

  marvin

Enjoy -- as I hope, and am reasonably certain, you will!!! Cheers for Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 06, 2014, 01:11:08 PM

Best Recordings of 2013

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0L4bEI_z8xE/UrhB6JCcPhI/AAAAAAAAHZE/v9cR9pw-cAU/s1600/Best_Recordings_of_2013_laurson_600.jpg)

Best Recordings of 2013 (#6)

Karabits, Bach
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/01/best-recordings-of-2013-6.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/01/best-recordings-of-2013-6.html)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nachtalberich on January 07, 2014, 07:18:03 AM
Hello, long time reader/lurker and first time poster.  Anyway, this is a great site and it's helped me pick-up lots of new music over the last year.

Anyway, I was reading this thread and Googling some of the various recordings when I ran across the complete Organ works for free.

They can be found at:  http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/

The works are performed by James Kibbie, on a variety of organs as detailed on the site.  The total download is about 2 GB, so depending on your connection, it may take a while.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on January 07, 2014, 09:33:18 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 07, 2014, 08:29:34 AM
Weinberg, Beethoven

? ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 07, 2014, 09:40:43 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 07, 2014, 09:33:18 AM
? ;)

Oops.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 07, 2014, 12:32:00 PM
Quote from: nachtalberich on January 07, 2014, 07:18:03 AM
Hello, long time reader/lurker and first time poster.  Anyway, this is a great site and it's helped me pick-up lots of new music over the last year.

Anyway, I was reading this thread and Googling some of the various recordings when I ran across the complete Organ works for free.

They can be found at:  http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/

The works are performed by James Kibbie, on a variety of organs as detailed on the site.  The total download is about 2 GB, so depending on your connection, it may take a while.

Enjoy!

Welcome at GMG!

The Kibbie download has been mentioned before.
It's indeed a great initiative by the University of Michigan School of Music, Theatre & Dance.
I personally consider this integral as a good start to dive into Bach's organ works (for free!).
But there are better performances/recordings available.

(And we're already blabbering about it for almost 7 years. ;))
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 08, 2014, 08:45:44 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 07, 2014, 12:32:00 PM
The Kibbie download has been mentioned before.
It's indeed a great initiative by the University of Michigan School of Music, Theatre & Dance.
I personally consider this integral as a good start to dive into Bach's organ works (for free!).
But there are better performances/recordings available.

A great lesson in diplomacy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 09, 2014, 09:07:21 AM
Well, my JPC order for the Olivier Vernet box fell through - claim was 'SOLD OUT'!  SO, now I'm on the lookout for another box to complement the Koopman that I own - Marie-Claire Alain seems like a good 'fit' for me (as a contrasting set, I mean) - now Amazon offers the 2 boxes below @ virtually the same price (1 CD total difference) - are these the same recordings, or did she do these works twice; and if the same, might one be a later remastering?  Thanks for any comments - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51m6G%2Bwt8ML._SY300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YYR809ibL._SY300_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 09, 2014, 09:11:40 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 09, 2014, 09:07:21 AM
Well, my JPC order for the Olivier Vernet box fell through - claim was 'SOLD OUT'!  SO, now I'm on the lookout for another box to complement the Koopman that I own - Marie-Claire Alain seems like a good 'fit' for me (as a contrasting set, I mean) - now Amazon offers the 2 boxes below @ virtually the same price (1 CD total difference) - are these the same recordings, or did she do these works twice; and if the same, might one be a later remastering?  Thanks for any comments - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51m6G%2Bwt8ML._SY300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YYR809ibL._SY300_.jpg)

She did the works trice, two made it onto CD -- these are sets II and III, from left to right. The first (=second) on modern instruments, the latter (=third) on period instruments that were out of reach for her, during the cold war. See also: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)

Both are terrific... III is more of a departure from Koopman, I find.

You will find plenty of more in-depth comments on both sets, positive almost all of them, in the past pages of this thread.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 09, 2014, 10:09:07 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 09, 2014, 09:07:21 AM
Well, my JPC order for the Olivier Vernet box fell through - claim was 'SOLD OUT'!  SO, now I'm on the lookout for another box to complement the Koopman that I own - Marie-Claire Alain seems like a good 'fit' for me (as a contrasting set, I mean) - now Amazon offers the 2 boxes below @ virtually the same price (1 CD total difference) - are these the same recordings, or did she do these works twice; and if the same, might one be a later remastering?  Thanks for any comments - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51m6G%2Bwt8ML._SY300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YYR809ibL._SY300_.jpg)

My experience over the past few weeks listening to the Leipzig Chorales and chorales from CU 3 makes me think that you're better off with the second set unless you have a particular interest in hearing the organs she used in the third. Both seemed different from Koopman in interpretation, I'd be interested to know why Jens thinks the last set is more different (that's not meant to sound aggressive -- he could well be right. Maybe it's to do with the organ sound rather than interpretation.) 

What you have in the second set is sweep. It's as if she bites the whole of the music off in one go and gives it back to you in a single lyrical gesture. If you know about piano, she reminds me of Gieseking at his best -- in the Ravel Pavane or in the mono (first) Gaspard  for example. Some of this magic is gone in the third IMO, where the style may be a bit more articulated.

I found that bass voices -- the pedal -- were often clearer in the second set, though I'm not sure why (the recording/ the instrument?) Sometimes that made a big difference to the drama of the music.

It may be different for the toccatas, sonatas, big bad preludes and fugues etc. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 09, 2014, 01:28:08 PM
Thanks Jens & Mandryka for your comments  - went back a dozen or so pages in the thread - seems to be a LOT of support for the Alain II & III - put in an order this afternoon on Amazon for Box II - should arrive in two days!  Dave :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Anhang on January 10, 2014, 09:15:17 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 09, 2014, 01:28:08 PM
Thanks Jens & Mandryka for your comments  - went back a dozen or so pages in the thread - seems to be a LOT of support for the Alain II & III - put in an order this afternoon on Amazon for Box II - should arrive in two days!  Dave :)

Alain II is wonderful.  I enjoy III as well, but I break out the headphones to listen to it.  It may be HIP, but it's also more reverberant and sounds more distantly recorded.  I don't know if it's the instrument, the venue acoustics, or the recording technique.  The headphones tend to mitigate these factors.

Would someone care to torment me by describing Alain I?  I've been hoping for years that Erato would release it on CD, or perhaps license the tapes to some enterprising label like Testament, but I guess it gets less and less likely.  I've never heard any of it, but often the first pass through has its own charms, like Brendel's Beethoven or Rubinstein's Chopin, so I continue to hope.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 10, 2014, 09:23:22 AM
Quote from: Anhang on January 10, 2014, 09:15:17 AM
Would someone care to torment me by describing Alain I? .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCHK1ZgDzHs
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jochanaan on January 12, 2014, 05:19:42 PM
I checked out some of Mme. Alain's recordings on YouTube.  I had probably heard recordings of her before, but I had forgotten just how great she is!  Flawless musicianship and a humble approach that reminded me a little of some of the old Albert Schweitzer recordings (although Schweitzer's tempos were much slower).  I was also impressed at her visual presence: no excess motion but not stiff either, just enough movement to get the notes played.  She was a great master.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on January 12, 2014, 06:52:14 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on January 12, 2014, 05:19:42 PM
I checked out some of Mme. Alain's recordings on YouTube.  I had probably heard recordings of her before, but I had forgotten just how great she is!  Flawless musicianship and a humble approach that reminded me a little of some of the old Albert Schweitzer recordings (although Schweitzer's tempos were much slower).  I was also impressed at her visual presence: no excess motion but not stiff either, just enough movement to get the notes played.  She was a great master.

If you don't want to get a full cycle from her, you can look for some recordings she did, 2 or 3 CDs worth,  for Erato either just after or just before "Alain II".  (If you dig through this thread,  I'm pretty sure you'll find details.) I have one of them (as well as Alain II), of which the main component is the Schubler Chorales.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 12, 2014, 09:49:40 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on January 12, 2014, 05:19:42 PM
I checked out some of Mme. Alain's recordings on YouTube.  I had probably heard recordings of her before, but I had forgotten just how great she is!  Flawless musicianship and a humble approach that reminded me a little of some of the old Albert Schweitzer recordings (although Schweitzer's tempos were much slower).  I was also impressed at her visual presence: no excess motion but not stiff either, just enough movement to get the notes played.  She was a great master.

What you have in Schweitzer is this kind of feeling, always, that the music's a procession for honoured dignitaries. It's so noble in style, too noble for me. You don't get that with Alain, thank goodness.

I played a trio sonata yesterday, just to compare Alain 2 and Koopman. It's astonishing how much control these organists have over the music they make. Even putting aside things like articulation and ornamentation, where every performer can exercise discretion, the instrument itself, and the way the registration effects the balance of the sound, is extraordinary.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 12, 2014, 09:59:55 PM
Here's my playlist of Chorales from CU 3.

669 Koopman (Novalis), Rubsam (Naxos), MC Alain (3rd series), Weinberger
670 Koopman (Novalis), Rubsam (Naxos), Nordstoga, Weinberger
671 Koopman (Novalis), Rubsam (Naxos), Ménissier, Weinberger
672 Rubsam (Naxos), Jens Christensen
673 Rubsam (Naxos)
674 Rubsam (Naxos), Jens Christensen
675 Rogg, Walcha (Stereo)
676 Rubsam (Naxos)
677 Astronio
678 Marie Claire Alain (2nd Series)
679 Walter Kraft
680 Leo van Doeselaar
681 Hans Fagius
682 Jens Christensen, Weinberger, Astronio
683 Claudio Astronio
684 Leo van Doesalaar
685 Hans Fagius
686
687
688 Rubsam (Naxos), Ton Koopman (Novalis)
689 Gustav Leonhardt

I still haven't found a satisfying recording for 686, and the whole process of searching was so disappointing that I can't bring myself to think about 687, which has the same cantus firmus. I really need to revisit the first six at least, it was a mistake to try to listen to three chorales at a time. But I'm back at work now, so it'll have to wait.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2014, 10:15:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 12, 2014, 09:59:55 PM
[....]
I still haven't found a satisfying recording for 686, and the whole process of searching was so disappointing that I can't bring myself to think about 687, which has the same cantus firmus. [....]

What's the problem?

BWV 686 is a one verse composition, as most of Bach's chorale preludes. A well-known exception is BWV 656 (3 verses of "O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig").

Given the (very) heavy character of BWV 686, I personally think that only the first verse of the hymn (based on psalm 130) is meant to be expressed.
(One a sidenote: the 2nd verse is kind of a transition towards God's clemency. In the verses 3-5 the ultimale hope in God's goodness and pardon is elaborated. See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale085-Eng3.htm.)

In the last lines of the first verse the poet writes about a God who might only remember our sins. Because of that, no man will be able to remain and face Him. Summarized: penance without reconciliation (yet!).
Many performances that I know/heard of this piece are rather good in expressing this depressing fear of the sinful man. So I would say there are quite some good recordings of this piece (HIP or not), like Van Wageningen, Kooiman (Coronata), Koopman (Novalis/Brilliant - even considering some ornamentations), Corti and many many more.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 13, 2014, 10:52:32 AM
The problem was the heaviness of it, Marc. I haven't heard Van Wageningen or Kooiman (did you ever upload the Kooiman? if so I'll have it, but not tagged with the performer because it was a blind listening) I'll check out again Koopman's Novalis one.

Maybe I just don't like the music. Mind you, I liked Doeselaar's 680, which is also heavy. Maybe I just needed to give it a break.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2014, 11:20:15 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 13, 2014, 10:52:32 AM
The problem was the heaviness of it, Marc. I haven't heard Van Wageningen or Kooiman (did you ever upload the Kooiman? if so I'll have it, but not tagged with the performer because it was a blind listening) I'll check out again Koopman's Novalis one.

Maybe I just don't like the music. Mind you, I liked Doeselaar's 680, which is also heavy. Maybe I just needed to give it a break.

You know what: it's my favourite Bach-organ-chorale! I can listen to it over and over again.

It causes me goosebumps and sometimes I feel really horrified and can only endure it with clenched teeth. Probably because I denied God during my pedantic teenage years, after some 16 years of thorough belief. 
>:D
And even in this miserable and hopeless state, I have the feeling that JSB understands me, even though he himself remained a true disciple of God.

Soli Bacho Gloria.

Do not get me wrong though: I'm only guessing about the one-verse-thing. It's questionable. I know for instance that scholar Peter Williams thinks this piece is an expression of the entire hymn/psalm (au contraire de BWV 38 - opening chorus). But the strange thing is that I do not know a performance that really offers the 'happy ending' .... or do I? On second thought: maybe the hopeful ending is possible, if one considers the powerful last bars as an expression of the strength and willpower of man to keep his faith in a merciful God. And yes, it is true that I sometimes, almost automatically, ball my fists whilst listening to the closure of this piece.

Come to think of it, that doesn't sound bad at all. It even makes some sense. Something strange must have happened to me ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on January 13, 2014, 02:00:29 PM
In BWV 686, I find Rogg and Suzuki highly satisfying.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on January 14, 2014, 04:10:25 AM
I listened to a bunch of these tonight, just to follow along (Messori, Johannsen, Weinberger). I liked Christoph Albrecht on the Silbermann series the best. I like the sound of the different voices. This is very heavy music.   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 14, 2014, 07:22:34 AM
Well, I've gone through 5 discs of the box below and really enjoying her playing (not fussy @ all) and the organs she has selected - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-R7S4NQx/0/O/Bach_Organ_Alain.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2014, 07:48:50 AM
Re 686, I'd always seen it as a commentary on the whole hymn, and so on the emotional level we need a movement from a cry of dispair through abjection to faith restored. This performance by Pierre Cochereau, never released commercially as far as I know,  seems very close to the mark emotionally.


http://www.youtube.com/v/EFw1QlCM35I

It's much better than the performance which was released on a Solstice CD.

The problem I have with some of the performances mentioned, Albrecht in included, is that they play it like a bravura organ piece. I don't connect at all with them emotionally and so I get a bit bored. Cochereau is clearly deeply moved by the music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2014, 09:34:05 AM
Quote from: milk on January 14, 2014, 04:10:25 AM
I listened to a bunch of these tonight, just to follow along (Messori, Johannsen, Weinberger). I liked Christoph Albrecht on the Silbermann series the best. I like the sound of the different voices. This is very heavy music.

Some performances are lighter - Herrick for example, and Vad, and Rogg and Hurford.  I don't find them specially interesting.

Unfortunately they seem to me to have zero to do with any sentiment expressed in Luther's hymn, which is a mistake I think. I think that these chorales are a sort of exegesis.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 14, 2014, 10:22:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 14, 2014, 09:34:05 AM
Some performances are lighter - Herrick for example, and Vad, and Rogg.  I don't find them specially interesting.

Unfortunately they seem to me to have zero to do with any sentiment expressed in Luther's hymn, which is a mistake I think. I think that these chorales are a sort of exegesis.

I, for one, would like a version that starts in a tempo that would strike me as singable... but then settles in contemplative mood and rhythmic stability, spiritual ease...

Have plenty to check out and might report back when I find something particularly lovely.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2014, 10:38:46 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 14, 2014, 10:22:13 AM
I, for one, would like a version that starts in a tempo that would strike me as singable... but then settles in contemplative mood and rhythmic stability, spiritual ease...
[....]

I immediately thought of Bram Beekman, but, alas, Out Of Print! :(

Quote from: Mandryka on January 14, 2014, 07:48:50 AM
[....]
The problem I have with some of the performances mentioned, Albrecht in included, is that they play it like a bravura organ piece. I don't connect at all with them emotionally and so I get a bit bored. Cochereau is clearly deeply moved by the music.

I must say that, from (almost) all BWV 686 performances that I've listened to, the description 'bravura' never came to my mind. In some cases I thought 'mannerism' (Kei Koito) or 'detached' (Suzuki), but never 'showing off virtuosity'.

Au contraire .... well, my own experiences with this piece and its recordings were described in my earlier post.

The Cochereau performance is too sticky for my likings, it reminds me a bit of the late romantic view upon Bach (Mengelberg might have liked it) and I find the organ and the registration rather non-appealing (it makes the piece almost ruthless sometimes), but one can sense that Cocherau is deeply moved by this composition.

Anyway, I decided to upload the Cor van Wageningen recording (again), because I think it's an interesting one (though not the 'Final Word') and apparently it's very difficult to get in touch with the record label if one doesn't live in NL.
Van Wageningen's playing the Schnitger et al organ of the Martinikerk, Groningen, NL. It's a long performance: over 8 minutes, and it's not very HIP.

I hope the link works all right.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldmjmpgv81wldra/S%200686%20-%20CvW.mp3
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: PaulSC on January 14, 2014, 12:01:07 PM
BWV 686 involves two voices played on the pedals. (It's not the only Bach chorale prelude with this feature, but perhaps someone can confirm my hunch that it is uncommon.) One of these voices plays the chorale phrases; below this, the other plays a bass that participates in the freely imitative texture. This is probably one of the reasons the music seems so "heavy."
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2014, 12:32:45 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 14, 2014, 10:38:46 AM


I must say that, from (almost) all BWV 686 performances that I've listened to, the description 'bravura' never came to my mind. In some cases I thought 'mannerism' (Kei Koito) or 'detached' (Suzuki), but never 'showing off virtuosity'.



The reason I said bravura -- maybe the wrong word -- but the thought behind it was this. Fist, the music's technically demanding. Second, it seems hard to give it symbolic meaning. Third, the poetry behind nearly every performance I've heard eludes me. I wonder what else there is to a performance like Koopman's Novalis or Foccroulle's  other than to say "here's a very complicated piece of music which I can play" Anyway your comment has made me curious to hear Kei Koito again.

Quote from: Marc on January 14, 2014, 10:38:46 AM

The Cochereau performance is too sticky for my likings, it reminds me a bit of the late romantic view upon Bach (Mengelberg might have liked it) and I find the organ and the registration rather non-appealing (it makes the piece almost ruthless sometimes), but one can sense that Cocherau is deeply moved by this composition.


Yes well it was only on the emotional plan that I thought it was interesting really. Though I have to say that I'm not too sold on any of the more rhetorical performances that I've heard, for reasons stated. Isn't the raison d'être of a more articulated style to reveal something poetic and meaningful? If so, then I say Cochereau's legato gives the Dutch school some serious competition in this chorale.

I'd quite like to see a rhetorical analysis of BWV 686. Is there one in Williams? I keep wondering whether to buy his book.

Quote from: Marc on January 14, 2014, 10:38:46 AM


Anyway, I decided to upload the Cor van Wageningen recording (again), because I think it's an interesting one (though not the 'Final Word') and apparently it's very difficult to get in touch with the record label if one doesn't live in NL.
Van Wageningen's playing the Schnitger et al organ of the Martinikerk, Groningen, NL. It's a long performance: over 8 minutes, and it's not very HIP.

I hope the link works all right.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldmjmpgv81wldra/S%200686%20-%20CvW.mp3

That's very very kind of you. Can't wait to hear it.

Quote from: PaulSC on January 14, 2014, 12:01:07 PM
BWV 686 involves two voices played on the pedals. (It's not the only Bach chorale prelude with this feature, but perhaps someone can confirm my hunch that it is uncommon.) One of these voices plays the chorale phrases; below this, the other plays a bass that participates in the freely imitative texture. This is probably one of the reasons the music seems so "heavy."


I think part of the problem is that much of the music isn't very animated -- it becomes more lively at the end but most of it is relatively leaden. That combined with the massive monochrome organum plenum registration that so many of them choose. Contrast BWV 671, which seems lively throughout. 


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2014, 09:22:15 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 14, 2014, 12:32:45 PM
[....]
I think part of the problem is that much of the music isn't very animated -- it becomes more lively at the end but most of it is relatively leaden. That combined with the massive monochrome organum plenum registration that so many of them choose. Contrast BWV 671, which seems lively throughout.

I don't think that the organists choose for plenum registration themselves. This is one of those rare printed compositions of J.S. Bach, with instructions from the composer himself: in Organo pleno con Pedalo doppio.

To me, this composition itself, in organo pleno, is already so emotionally gripping , that I do not need that many interpretation.
It just seems that Mandryka's and my emotional needs for this piece are totally different. I look at it as a huge and deep cry of penitence and the organo pleno seems completely understandable to me: Aus tiefer Not schrei ich zu dir. It's not a whisper, it's the desperate scream of a sinful man. And the more explicit expressive ending could be read as the final and strong belief that God is good and can make man strong again (if one believes that the piece symbolizes the entire 5 verse hymn).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on January 14, 2014, 11:59:14 PM
Maybe Johannsen is lighter also. Rubsam seems to be the antithesis of light. At the same time, the registration is as full-on as any of them. He's so slow it's crushing. But I'm liking Messori, also quite slow, a lot upon second listen. To me, they are more like each other and different from Suzuki, Weinberger and Walcha, who seem a little more detached. This is a crazy piece of music to listen to over and over again. What can I listen to that's, like, the opposite of this?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 15, 2014, 07:27:31 AM
Quote from: milk on January 14, 2014, 11:59:14 PM
Maybe Johannsen is lighter also. Rubsam seems to be the antithesis of light. At the same time, the registration is as full-on as any of them. He's so slow it's crushing. But I'm liking Messori, also quite slow, a lot upon second listen. To me, they are more like each other and different from Suzuki, Weinberger and Walcha, who seem a little more detached. This is a crazy piece of music to listen to over and over again. What can I listen to that's, like, the opposite of this?

I too very much enjoyed Messori's 689 at the start. It really sounds like a desparate cry, I remember being strapped to my seat the first time I heard it, like someone was there in front of me, in dispair. When I was listening to a lot if CU 3 over the Christmas/ New Year period, Messori's was  probably the version I liked the most apart from that Cochereau on youtube that I posted. At the time  I was less impressed by the way he developed the music, the music in the middle of the chorale seemed a bit overbearing.

What I would really like to hear is to hear Leo van Droeselaar playing it. He does magic things sometimes, and I have a feeling that this music is right up his steet.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 15, 2014, 11:54:57 PM
Mandryka, you mention BWV 689, but I think one should read 686. Right?

If so, check out (or buy) this one: Van Doeselaar playing the 'grand' chorales of the Clavierübung 3.

(http://thumbnails109.imagebam.com/30156/62110f301554126.jpg) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/62110f301554126)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kyrie-Gott-Vater-Ewigkeit-Doeselaar/dp/B00000JPYK/

http://www.channelclassics.com/kyrie-gott-vater-in-ewigkeit.html

I like the entire disc, and I like the Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkmaar NL very much, too.

(http://109.imagebam.com/download/lI8KQdrdXaWn9gxNnxWxMQ/30156/301553222/yummy.gif)

But .... we seem to have different taste, so remember, if you take my advice .... don't forget it's risky!

;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 16, 2014, 01:37:56 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 15, 2014, 11:54:57 PM
I like the entire disc, and I like the Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkmaar NL very much, too.

(http://109.imagebam.com/download/lI8KQdrdXaWn9gxNnxWxMQ/30156/301553222/yummy.gif)

I also like the Alkmaar organ, but that is another matter. Van Doeselaar´s CÜ III is recorded on the Hans Heinrich Bader organ,
St. Walburgiskerk, Zutphen, NL.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 16, 2014, 04:12:29 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 16, 2014, 01:37:56 AM
I also like the Alkmaar organ, but that is another matter. Van Doeselaar´s CÜ III is recorded on the Hans Heinrich Bader organ,
St. Walburgiskerk, Zutphen, NL.  :)

Yep.
My mistake.

Just listened to Van Doeselaar in BWV 686 and my guess is: not Mandryka's taste.
Personally, I think it's OK, but even I wouldn't rank this performance among my favourites. I would have preferred a better balance between higher principal and heavy reed stops. Van Doeselaar's playing in this piece isn't one of the heaviest, but his registration is.
And maybe a tad slower would have provided more clarity, because of the (like Alkmaar ;)) very spatial church acoustics in Zutphen.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 16, 2014, 07:27:50 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 15, 2014, 11:54:57 PM
Mandryka, you mention BWV 689, but I think one should read 686. Right?

If so, check out (or buy) this one: Van Doeselaar playing the 'grand' chorales of the Clavierübung 3.

(http://thumbnails109.imagebam.com/30156/62110f301554126.jpg) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/62110f301554126)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kyrie-Gott-Vater-Ewigkeit-Doeselaar/dp/B00000JPYK/

http://www.channelclassics.com/kyrie-gott-vater-in-ewigkeit.html

I like the entire disc, and I like the Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkmaar NL very much, too.

(http://109.imagebam.com/download/lI8KQdrdXaWn9gxNnxWxMQ/30156/301553222/yummy.gif)

But .... we seem to have different taste, so remember, if you take my advice .... don't forget it's risky!

;)

I know just the first CD of  that one and I like some of what he does there, and I'm even more keen  on this one. I guess that's what you were thnking of when you mentioned Alkmaar.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-a4wUsgnL._SX300_.jpg)

If you've heard Messori's I'd be interested to know what you make of it -- I mean his 686. I played it again last night and though I think it's too overbearing, I tolerated what he does better than before. The organ sound is heavy-issimo.

Let me ask a question. Why does Knud Vad sound so very different at the start of 686? Is he using Organum Plenum? I didn't much enjoy the performance by the way.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 16, 2014, 10:04:52 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 16, 2014, 07:27:50 AM
I know just the first CD of  that one and I like some of what he does there, and I'm even more keen  on this one. I guess that's what you were thnking of when you mentioned Alkmaar.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-a4wUsgnL._SX300_.jpg)

If you've heard Messori's I'd be interested to know what you make of it -- I mean his 686. I played it again last night and though I think it's too overbearing, I tolerated what he does better than before. The organ sound is heavy-issimo.

Let me ask a question. Why does Knud Vad sound so very different at the start of 686? Is he using Organum Plenum? I didn't much enjoy the performance by the way.

Yes, somehow Bach/Van Doeselaar/Alkmaar has become another Holy Trinity to me. ;)

About the other two:

Messori:
Instrument: (very much) OK.
Registration: OK.
Playing: I find this interpretation rather tiresome. The ritenuto at the end of each line doesn't appeal to me. It sounds as if the sinful man is thinking: errr, well, what more do I have to whine about?

Vad:
Instrument: OK. One of the better Marcussen-organs IMHO. The recording sound is a bit 'hissy' though.
Registration: indeed, this is not in Organo pleno. It's 'only' a 2 Clav. et Pedalo doppio.
Playing: because of this chamber-like registration, it is something (completely) different. But it isn't my deep despair, that's for sure. IMO, this kind of interpretation would be more suitable for f.i. BWV 639 Ich ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 20, 2014, 11:15:29 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 14, 2014, 10:38:46 AM
I immediately thought of Bram Beekman, but, alas, Out Of Print! :(

I must say that, from (almost) all BWV 686 performances that I've listened to, the description 'bravura' never came to my mind. In some cases I thought 'mannerism' (Kei Koito) or 'detached' (Suzuki), but never 'showing off virtuosity'.

Au contraire .... well, my own experiences with this piece and its recordings were described in my earlier post.

The Cochereau performance is too sticky for my likings, it reminds me a bit of the late romantic view upon Bach (Mengelberg might have liked it) and I find the organ and the registration rather non-appealing (it makes the piece almost ruthless sometimes), but one can sense that Cocherau is deeply moved by this composition.

Anyway, I decided to upload the Cor van Wageningen recording (again), because I think it's an interesting one (though not the 'Final Word') and apparently it's very difficult to get in touch with the record label if one doesn't live in NL.
Van Wageningen's playing the Schnitger et al organ of the Martinikerk, Groningen, NL. It's a long performance: over 8 minutes, and it's not very HIP.

I hope the link works all right.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldmjmpgv81wldra/S%200686%20-%20CvW.mp3

That Cor van Wageningen 686, do you think he's telling a story with the music? It's interesting how calm it is at the start. And how luminous it sounds. And how uniform the texture is.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 21, 2014, 09:04:12 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 20, 2014, 11:15:29 PM
That Cor van Wageningen 686, do you think he's telling a story with the music? It's interesting how calm it is at the start. And how luminous it sounds. And how uniform the texture is.

Van Wageningen's intentions?
If I only knew ....

I personally would prefer a faster tempo and less legato to make it more poignant, but I'm convinced everything is well thought-out by Van Wageningen and his performance is getting more convincing and mesmerizing during the piece.

And he's helped by a great instrument.

I'm longing for anothing organ summer. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 22, 2014, 11:07:46 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 21, 2014, 09:04:12 AM
I personally would prefer a faster tempo and less legato to make it more poignant, but I'm convinced everything is well thought-out by Van Wageningen and his performance is getting more convincing and mesmerizing during the piece.

But a faster tempo and less legato would make him sound like many others. It is first and foremost his slow tempo and rather legato, which makes his interpretation so special and fascinating.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 22, 2014, 08:19:41 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 22, 2014, 11:07:46 AM
But a faster tempo and less legato would make him sound like many others. It is first and foremost his slow tempo and rather legato, which makes his interpretation so special and fascinating.

I agree.

Quote from: Marc on January 14, 2014, 10:38:46 AM
[....] I decided to upload the Cor van Wageningen recording (again), because I think it's an interesting one (though not the 'Final Word') [....]

I can 'endure' many different performances in Bach's organ works, and Van Wageningen's entire disc is certainly one of them, with BWV 686 as a highlight. But if I had to describe my own preferences in this piece, then I would say something like ....

Quote from: Marc on January 21, 2014, 09:04:12 AM
[....] I personally would prefer a faster tempo and less legato to make it more poignant, [....]

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 22, 2014, 09:08:12 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 14, 2014, 10:38:46 AM
I immediately thought of Bram Beekman, but, alas, Out Of Print! :(

I must say that, from (almost) all BWV 686 performances that I've listened to, the description 'bravura' never came to my mind. In some cases I thought 'mannerism' (Kei Koito) or 'detached' (Suzuki), but never 'showing off virtuosity'.

Au contraire .... well, my own experiences with this piece and its recordings were described in my earlier post.

The Cochereau performance is too sticky for my likings, it reminds me a bit of the late romantic view upon Bach (Mengelberg might have liked it) and I find the organ and the registration rather non-appealing (it makes the piece almost ruthless sometimes), but one can sense that Cocherau is deeply moved by this composition.

Anyway, I decided to upload the Cor van Wageningen recording (again), because I think it's an interesting one (though not the 'Final Word') and apparently it's very difficult to get in touch with the record label if one doesn't live in NL.
Van Wageningen's playing the Schnitger et al organ of the Martinikerk, Groningen, NL. It's a long performance: over 8 minutes, and it's not very HIP.

I hope the link works all right.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldmjmpgv81wldra/S%200686%20-%20CvW.mp3

I know this is cheeky, but could you upload the Bram Beekman 686? That comment you made is making me curious, and it has disappeared without trace.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 23, 2014, 09:38:05 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 22, 2014, 09:08:12 PM
I know this is cheeky, but could you upload the Bram Beekman 686? That comment you made is making me curious, and it has disappeared without trace.

AFAIK, it has not been placed here before.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gz38o2phjz0q5jl/S%200686%20-%20BB.mp3

As a bonus: BWV 682 by Beekman, one of my favourites. It's transparent and lucid, and beautifully registrated. I'm not really a connaisseur of organ stops, but I think it's the Vox Humana of the Bovenwerk which is really mesmerizing me.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y2p537dypcvv869/S%200682%20-%20BB.mp3

Beekman is playing the organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam (Schonat 1655, Hagerbeer 1673, Duyschot 1697, Bätz 1840, Marcussen 1981):

http://www.orgelsite.nl/amsterdam2.htm

The original 2-cd was produced in 1993 as part of the Lindenberg series and this particular issue (Bach organ works Volume 5) was sold out rather quickly.
Lindenberg was a Dutch book/record shop. The firm got bankrupt in 2008. Pity, because their organ catalogue was very good, even though many OOP issues weren't re-released.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 24, 2014, 09:22:33 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 22, 2014, 08:19:41 PM
Premont said:  But a faster tempo and less legato would make him sound like many others. It is first and foremost his slow tempo and rather legato, which makes his interpretation so special and fascinating.

Marc said: I agree.

Quote from: Marc on January 14, 2014, 11:38:46

I can 'endure' many different performances in Bach's organ works, and Van Wageningen's entire disc is certainly one of them, with BWV 686 as a highlight. But if I had to describe my own preferences in this piece, then I would say something like ....

Quote from: Marc on January 21, 2014, 10:04:12 AM

[....] I personally would prefer a faster tempo and less legato to make it more poignant, [....]

I think we use the word "prefer" in a slightly different meaning. I can say, that I "prefer" that van Wageningen plays in the way he does, so that I can listen to him, when I am in the mood for his interpretation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 24, 2014, 09:30:49 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 24, 2014, 09:22:33 AM
I think we use the word "prefer" in a slightly different meaning. I can say, that I "prefer" that van Wageningen plays in the way he does, so that I can listen to him, when I am in the mood for his interpretation.

So, even though we use "prefer" in a different meaning, we both agree that Van Wageningen adds a big plus to the BWV 686 recording catalogue. :)

And what about mr. Beekman?
Have you ever heard of him?

(http://111.imagebam.com/download/9NPGd1Vin7nScd83tQfH9A/30369/303685703/smiley_biggrin.gif)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 24, 2014, 09:45:08 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 24, 2014, 09:30:49 AM
So, even though we use "prefer" in a different meaning, we both agree that Van Wageningen adds a big plus to the BWV 686 recording catalogue. :)

Precisely.  :)

Quote from: Marc
And what about mr. Beekman?
Have you ever heard of him?

Yes, a kind forum friend helped me to get hold of his integral.  :) But I have not listened to his CÛ III recently. Inspired by Mandryka I am listening to some of the recordings I own of this work, and Beekman´s will be among them as well as the recordings by Piet Wiersma and Wim van Beek, both of whom I appreciate as much as Beekman.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 24, 2014, 10:07:16 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 23, 2014, 09:38:05 AM
AFAIK, it has not been placed here before.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gz38o2phjz0q5jl/S%200686%20-%20BB.mp3

As a bonus: BWV 682 by Beekman, one of my favourites. It's transparent and lucid, and beautifully registrated. I'm not really a connaisseur of organ stops, but I think it's the Vox Humana of the Bovenwerk which is really mesmerizing me.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y2p537dypcvv869/S%200682%20-%20BB.mp3

Beekman is playing the organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam (Schonat 1655, Hagerbeer 1673, Duyschot 1697, Bätz 1840, Marcussen 1981):

http://www.orgelsite.nl/amsterdam2.htm

The original 2-cd was produced in 1993 as part of the Lindenberg series and this particular issue (Bach organ works Volume 5) was sold out rather quickly.
Lindenberg was a Dutch book/record shop. The firm got bankrupt in 2008. Pity, because their organ catalogue was very good, even though many OOP issues weren't re-released.

Much appreciated. Thanks.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 24, 2014, 10:25:20 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 24, 2014, 09:45:08 AM
Precisely.  :)

Yes, a kind forum friend helped me to get hold of his integral.  :) But I have not listened to his CÛ III recently. Inspired by Mandryka I am listening to some of the recordings I own of this work, and Beekman´s will be among them as well as the recordings by Piet Wiersma and Wim van Beek, both of whom I appreciate as much as Beekman.

Is this the recording by Wim van Beek you mean

http://orgelconcerten.ncrv.nl/concert/wim-van-beek-der-aa-kerk

I like it very much. Is this the Wiersma CD you mean?

(http://media.gospel.nl/media/catalog/product/cache/5/image/275x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/i/m/image_21340.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 25, 2014, 03:03:03 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 24, 2014, 10:25:20 PM
Is this the recording by Wim van Beek you mean

http://orgelconcerten.ncrv.nl/concert/wim-van-beek-der-aa-kerk

I like it very much. Is this the Wiersma CD you mean?

(http://media.gospel.nl/media/catalog/product/cache/5/image/275x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/i/m/image_21340.jpg)

As to van Beek this one:

http://www.landgoedgerianna.nl/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,8660/category_id,74/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,39/

and as to Wiersma Vol. I in his Bach in Groningen series, since long out of print.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 25, 2014, 03:06:42 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 24, 2014, 10:25:20 PM
Is this the recording by Wim van Beek you mean

http://orgelconcerten.ncrv.nl/concert/wim-van-beek-der-aa-kerk

I like it very much. Is this the Wiersma CD you mean?

(http://media.gospel.nl/media/catalog/product/cache/5/image/275x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/i/m/image_21340.jpg)

Good Googling indeed!

:)

The Van Beek performance you found (another great one) is a live recording, broadcoasted on the Dutch radio in 1974, shortly before the Schnitger/Timpe organ of the Der Aa Kerk had to be put out of use because of collapsing danger.

I think that Premont was referring to Van Beek's complete CU3 recording for the (Dutch) Helior label, played on the other famous Schniger et al organ in Groningen (Martinikerk). Unfortunately their website link (http://www.helior.nl/‎) didn't work for me anymore.

If you're interested in Van Beek's Bach issues, then you might try the Dutch company Boeijenga Music in the city of Leeuwarden. Here are some links:
http://www.boeijengamusic.com/home.aspx
http://www.boeijengamusic.com/contact.aspx

About Piet Wiersma: he started with a Bach in Groningen integral around 2000 for the (Dutch) label Eurosound. For this project, Wiersma picked only historical organs from the province of Groningen. It's a real pity that Wiermsa never completed this integral, because IMHO there are many exceptionally beautiful village organs in Groningen. (I've experienced a few 'live in concert'.) The organist died of a stroke in 2003, a couple of hours after he recorded part 2 of Volume 7 on the Lohman organ in Eenrum.

Your picture refers to Volume 5, but the complete CU3 was issued as Volume 1 (again on the Martinikerk organ). This issue was sold out almost within a year or two.
AFAIK, the label Eurosound doesn't exist anymore, there are only a few Wiersma volumes still available in NL (most of them used copies) and there is no chance of a reprint.

EDIT: saw that Premont already replied, but maybe there is some useful additional info in my post.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 25, 2014, 03:59:21 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 25, 2014, 03:06:42 AM
EDIT: saw that Premont already replied, but maybe there is some useful additional info in my post.

Yes, but it seems as if van Beek´s CUIII is easier to aquire at Landgoed Gerianna.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 24, 2014, 12:15:49 PM
A new release of Marie-Claire Alain.

(http://112.imagebam.com/download/DBMA63SSMScXiSnlpi5ODA/32267/322663694/jsb-mca1954.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-pieces-Erato-Story/dp/B00I5OZ1TI/?tag=goodmusicguideco

Recorded in February 1954 in Paris, l'église Saint-Merry, on the reconstructed Clicquot organ, not long after the restoration by Victor Gonzalez.

Yes, Alain's playing improved during the years, and yes, it's mono, but I think this one is almost mandatory for Bach, organ and Alain lovers .... and aren't we all?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 07, 2014, 02:46:13 AM
From another thread:

Quote from: Dungeon Master on May 07, 2014, 01:43:05 AM
The Netherlands Bach Society has started the All Of Bach (http://allofbach.com/en/) website.

Their aim is the perform and post online every one of Bach's 1080 catalogued works. At one work posted per week, (Fridays, if you are interested), the project will be complete in the year 2035, Friday, late November.

So far just 6 works online, but there is information, a video of performance and other goodies for each work.

Really folks, check out this site!

I'm already in Bach's Organ Heaven after listening to BWV 565 (Leo van Doeselaar, Schnitger et al organ, Martinikerk, Groningen) and BWV 593 (Reitze Smits, Bätz organ, Lutherse Kerk, Den Haag).

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-565/detail/

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-593/detail/

This is gonna be a fantastic project!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 07, 2014, 05:51:55 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 07, 2014, 02:46:13 AM
From another thread:

Really folks, check out this site!

I'm already in Bach's Organ Heaven after listening to BWV 565 (Leo van Doeselaar, Schnitger et al organ, Martinikerk, Groningen) and BWV 593 (Reitze Smits, Bätz organ, Lutherse Kerk, Den Haag).

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-565/detail/

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-593/detail/

This is gonna be a fantastic project!

Very neat, indeed!!!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Moonfish on May 07, 2014, 08:47:03 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 07, 2014, 02:46:13 AM
From another thread:

Really folks, check out this site!

I'm already in Bach's Organ Heaven after listening to BWV 565 (Leo van Doeselaar, Schnitger et al organ, Martinikerk, Groningen) and BWV 593 (Reitze Smits, Bätz organ, Lutherse Kerk, Den Haag).

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-565/detail/

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-593/detail/

This is gonna be a fantastic project!

Very impressive!   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 06, 2014, 10:56:31 PM
Just for my own reference really as I'm so impressed by Foccroulle's AoF (2010), here are the dates of recording of his other Bach CDs (by number from the big box)

1 -- 1997
2 -- 1995
3 -- 1996
4 -- 1995
5 -- 1997
6 -- 1982
7 --
8 -- 1998
9 -- 1990
10 -- 1990/1984/1997
11 -- 1997
12 (i-viii) -- 1997
12(rest) -- 2008
13 -- 1991 (? it's not clear to me)
14 -- 1991/1992
15 -- 1992
16

Maybe someone can see the dates of 16, 13 and 7.

I've been so much more impressed by the AoF than the stuff in the big box that my theory is he's just got better -- so clearly CD 12  and CD 6 are  things I need to listen to to verify/falsify this idea.

The essay in the booklet by Foccroulle, on meaning in Bach, is well worth looking at for its candour -- he talks about Sabra and Chatilla (1982), Rwanda (1994), the siege of Sarajevo (1992-1996) and the unification of Berlin (1989)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 07, 2014, 10:24:16 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 06, 2014, 10:56:31 PM
Just for my own reference really as I'm so impressed by Foccroulle's AoF (2010), here are the dates of recording of his other Bach CDs (by number from the big box)

1 -- 1997
2 -- 1995
3 -- 1996
4 -- 1995
5 -- 1997
6 -- 1982
7 --
8 -- 1998
9 -- 1990
10 -- 1990/1984/1997
11 -- 1997
12 (i-viii) -- 1997
12(rest) -- 2008
13 -- 1991 (? it's not clear to me)
14 -- 1991/1992
15 -- 1992
16

Maybe someone can see the dates of 16, 13 and 7.

I've been so much more impressed by the AoF than the stuff in the big box that my theory is he's just got better -- so clearly CD 12  and CD 6 are  things I need to listen to to verify/falsify this idea.

The essay in the booklet by Foccroulle, on meaning in Bach, is well worth looking at for its candour -- he talks about Sabra and Chatilla (1982), Rwanda (1994), the siege of Sarajevo (1992-1996) and the unification of Berlin (1989)

The booklet I own writes:

VOL.VII (Orgelbüchleion) 1985
VOL.XIII (Leipzigchorales et.c.) Oct 1991
VOL XVI  (Triosonatas VI, IV and III) August 1992 and (Eight small preludes and fugues) June 1997

VOL XI and XII 1-8 is July 1987
VOL VIII is Oct 1988

Haven´t we got identical booklets?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 07, 2014, 10:54:28 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 07, 2014, 10:24:16 AM
The booklet I own writes:

VOL.VII (Orgelbüchleion) 1985
VOL.XIII (Leipzigchorales et.c.) Oct 1991
VOL XVI  (Triosonatas VI, IV and III) August 1992 and (Eight small preludes and fugues) June 1997

VOL XI and XII 1-8 is July 1987
VOL VIII is Oct 1988

Haven´t we got identical booklets?

I have a bad scan. Mine is a download. I listened to the Passacaglia on CD 112 which is one of the very late ones, and, you know, it's wonderful!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 07, 2014, 11:11:11 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 07, 2014, 10:54:28 AM
I have a bad scan. Mine is a download. I listened to the Passacaglia on CD 112 which is one of the very late ones, and, you know, it's wonderful!

Perhaps you do not know, that Foccroulle in June 1984 made a recording on the Schonat/Hagerbeer organ, Nieuwe Kerk, Amsterdam (the original release VOL. I) containing BWV 565, 730-31, 718, 727, 542, 735, 592, 728 and 582, so the 2008 recording on the Martini organ is a re-recording.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 07, 2014, 11:14:46 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 07, 2014, 11:11:11 AM
Perhaps you do not know, that Foccroulle in June 1984 made a recording on the Schonat/Hagerbeer organ, Nieuwe Kerk, Amsterdam (the original release VOL. I) containing BWV 565, 730-31, 718, 727, 542, 735, 592, 728 and 582, so the 2008 recording on the Martini organ is a re-recording.

No, I didn't know. I heard him play Buxtehude in London recently, with a light show to look at  while he was playing. I like his style very much and I hope he hasn't sidelined baroque music for modern music and running festivals. .
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 07, 2014, 08:12:13 PM
Here's the famous/notorious Toccata con Fuga ex d-moll BWV 565, played by Bernard Foccroulle in his younger years (1984), on the Dutch baroque organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam, built in 1655 by Hans Wolf Schonat and expanded some years later by Roelof Barentsz Duyschot and Jacobus Galtusz van Hagerbeer:

http://www.youtube.com/v/PeKMsCIZ2rQ

As Premont indicated, this is another BWV 565 than the boxset performance (Schnitger et al, Martinikerk, Groningen, NL, recorded in 2008).
Only a few of the 1984 recording survived in the integral boxset (BWV 730, 731 and 592).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 03, 2014, 02:57:39 AM
Just to enjoy: Ton Koopman playing Bach in Freiberg (Silbermann).

http://www.youtube.com/v/XiKQ0N-bl_4

http://www.youtube.com/v/SVHm-hwiFLw
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on November 08, 2014, 12:46:06 AM
Quote from: Que on November 08, 2014, 12:17:20 AM
Super-duper is stretching it a bit for a €100 offer.... 8)  :D

Still, it is a complete Bach organ set marked down from €180 and on one of the most expensive labels known to mankind.... ::)

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4026798107611.jpg)

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Orgelwerke-Gesamtaufnahme-auf-Silbermann-Orgeln-SACD/hnum/3172801

Q

It sounds fantastic still expensive....
Tell me Que what do you think about the performances?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 08, 2014, 01:55:36 AM
Quote from: Harry's on November 08, 2014, 12:46:06 AM
It sounds fantastic still expensive....
Tell me Que what do you think about the performances?

I think I'm hardly qualified to pass a judgement, since I don't know have he set.  :-\

Premont, Marc and others might have more helpful comments to make! :)

But, I can share my own thoughts. It might be a set of significant interest.

Of course, Aeolus had planned to record this entire set with Ewald Kooiman - judging from watch I've heard by him, his participation is a big plus in my book.
But he passed away halfway through the project, and it was finished by a number of his former students. They are an unknown to me.
Kooiman wanted a change after his previous recordings on primarily Dutch organs (if only someone would reissue his cycle on Coronata) and opted for a entire cycle on Silbermann organs.
That is a coin that can flip two ways. I love Bach on Northern organs (Northern Germany, Netherlands, Denmark) and have some hesitations about the brighter and more opulent Silbermanns.
But it could be a main attraction! :) I have little doubt that the way the instruments have been recorded will be second to none, considering Aelous' technical standards. I expect nothing less than a quality comparable to (organ) recordings on DIVOX, which also happens to be German... :)

I would be happy to see further comments from those that are in-the-know on this set. :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on November 08, 2014, 04:20:43 AM
Quote from: Que on November 08, 2014, 01:55:36 AM
I think I'm hardly qualified to pass a judgement, since I don't know have he set.  :-\

Premont, Marc and others might have more helpful comments to make! :)

But, I can share my own thoughts. It might be a set of significant interest.

Of course, Aeolus had planned to record this entire set with Ewald Kooiman - judging from watch I've heard by him, his participation is a big plus in my book.
But he passed away halfway through the project, and it was finished by a number of his former students. They are an unknown to me.
Kooiman wanted a change after his previous recordings on primarily Dutch organs (if only someone would reissue his cycle on Coronata) and opted for a entire cycle on Silbermann organs.
That is a coin that can flip two ways. I love Bach on Northern organs (Northern Germany, Netherlands, Denmark) and have some hesitations about the brighter and more opulent Silbermanns.
But it could be a main attraction! :) I have little doubt that the way the instruments have been recorded will be second to none, considering Aelous' technical standards. I expect nothing less than a quality comparable to (organ) recordings on DIVOX, which also happens to be German... :)

I would be happy to see further comments from those that are in-the-know on this set. :)

Q

So I am halfway in, having on the one side the CPO box, I guess one with the Silbermann's Organs, of which I love the sound, is a natural companion. And although I have no hesitations concerning Kooiman, I know next to nothing about his pupils. I have it on my order list, but before I push the button, I would like Premont to comment on this set too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 08, 2014, 05:11:42 AM
I know nothing of that issue, but there is this quite detailed description of it (even if you need more dependable recommnedation of its performance quality) that at least gives a good physical description of what is there: http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/8193 (http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/8193)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on November 08, 2014, 05:54:37 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 08, 2014, 05:11:42 AM
I know nothing of that issue, but there is this quite detailed description of it (even if you need more dependable recommnedation of its performance quality) that at least gives a good physical description of what is there: http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/8193 (http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/8193)

Thank you Neal, that a good start towards this set!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 08, 2014, 06:01:16 AM
Quote from: Harry's on November 08, 2014, 04:20:43 AM
So I am halfway in, having on the one side the CPO box, I guess one with the Silbermann's Organs, of which I love the sound, is a natural companion. And although I have no hesitations concerning Kooiman, I know next to nothing about his pupils. I have it on my order list, but before I push the button, I would like Premont to comment on this set too.

Kooiman has always been one of my favorite Bach interpreters, who´s combination of schooling and profound expression is utterly convincing, and he is fully up to my expectations in this set. The three pupils are generally true to the basic elements of his style, all of them fortunately retaining some individuality, and I am particularly fond of Ute Gremmel-Geuchen, who´s Clavierübung III leaves nothing to Kooiman´s earlier recording on Coronata. Most individual as to expression is Bernhard Klapprott, who has recorded two of the nineteen CDs of the set. The  set constitutes a worthy memorial of Kooiman and his role as an inspiring teacher and a musician.

Before I ordered the set, I had a few concerns regarding the use of A. and J.A. Silbermann organs for this music, but these were immediately silenced. Although I prefer Schnitger and Gottfried Silbermann organs for Bach's organ works, I have to admit that the sounding result with the classic French sounding A. and J.A. Silbermann organs is impressive. A contributing factor is undoubtedly the impeccable sound engineering of the recordings .

However I miss a list of the used registrations for the individual pieces. This is nowadays obligatory for a release like this.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on November 08, 2014, 06:06:03 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 08, 2014, 06:01:16 AM
Kooiman has always been one of my favorite Bach interpreters, who´s combination of scolarship and profound expression is utterly convincing, and he is fully up to my expectations in this set. The three pupils are generally true to the basic elements of his style, all of them fortunately retaining some individuality, and I am particularly fond of Ute Gremmel-Geuchen, who´s Clavierübung III leaves nothing to Kooiman´s earlier recording on Coronata. Most individual as to expression is Bernhard Klapprott, who has recorded two of the nineteen CDs of the set. The  set constitutes a worthy memorial on Kooiman and his role as an inspiring teacher and a musician.

Before I ordered the set, I had a few concerns regarding the use of A. and J.A. Silbermann organs for this music, but these were immediately silenced. Although I prefer Schnitger and Gottfried Silbermann organs for Bach's organ works, I have to admit that the sounding result with the classic French sounding A. and J.A. Silbermann organs is impressive. A contributing factor is undoubtedly impeccable sound Engineering of the recordings .

However I miss a list of the used registrations for the individual pieces. This is nowadays obligatory for a release like this.

Thank you Premont, that seals the deal for me, thank you for telling us this.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 08, 2014, 06:14:43 AM
Quote from: Harry's on November 08, 2014, 06:06:03 AM
Thank you Premont, that seals the deal for me, thank you for telling us this.

You are welcome my friend, I am sure, that you will like the set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 08, 2014, 11:26:08 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 08, 2014, 06:14:43 AM
You are welcome my friend, I am sure, that you will like the set.

Me, too.

:)

Here's Ewald Kooiman, shortly before his unexpected death, playing on the Andreas Silbermann organ in Marmoutier: BWV 913-1, 629, 621 & 616.

I do love those French 'growling' reed stops.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Et-IBlSJqV8
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 08, 2014, 12:14:45 PM
Kooiman playing BWV 1099 on the Johann Andreas Silbermann organ in Wasselonne:

http://www.youtube.com/v/hw5-P_NPC3E

And here's Kooiman's former pupil Ute Gremmel-Geuchen with the Fugue in G-minor BWV 131a, on the reconstructed Johann Andreas Silbermann Organ in Villingen.

http://www.youtube.com/v/MFJgzB3mXkg
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 08, 2014, 01:42:40 PM
After all the 'Ewald Kooiman commotion' I found this: Maria-Magdalena Kaczor.
For those who like to dance on Big Hits .... the editing room is SWINGING.

;)

http://www.youtube.com/v/bSDZCZcnqoM
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Moonfish on November 08, 2014, 02:09:05 PM
I love to read the posts in this thread as I sense how engaged all of you are with JS Bach's organ works.  Personally I seem to gravitate around the trio sonatas on an almost continuous basis while knowing well that I should take a much longer walk within this realm of music. What made you so passionate about organ music and JS Bach's organ music in the first place?  With my limited experience I sense a degree of meditation when I listen to these works as I get lost in the intricate patterns of the instrument. Is that something that you are drawn to as well?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 08, 2014, 02:38:14 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on November 08, 2014, 02:09:05 PM
I love to read the posts in this thread as I sense how engaged all of you are with JS Bach's organ works.  Personally I seem to gravitate around the trio sonatas on an almost continuous basis while knowing well that I should take a much longer walk within this realm of music. What made you so passionate about organ music and JS Bach's organ music in the first place?  With my limited experience I sense a degree of meditation when I listen to these works as I get lost in the intricate patterns of the instrument. Is that something that you are drawn to as well?

Raised in a Christian family, I fell in love with the sound of the pipe organ as a kid. All those different sounds, from intimate flutes to a thundering plenum! Just WOW.

Then I lost my faith during my teens, kept out of churches when possible and somehow lost the connection with the ultimate church instrument, too.
Complete nonsense of course, because I kept listening to (and visiting concerts of) religious vocal music of Bach, Mozart, Renaissance Masters and all the others I deliberately forget to mention.

Now that I turned old and grey, and just a tad wiser, I realized my nonsensical attitute .... and embraced the organ again. My best rediscovery of the last 10 years or so!

I.c. meditation: I am aware of the fact that f.i. meditation, mindfulness, Eastern religions and their meanings are growing more and more popular worldwide, also with people in my own environment.

I always say: I already have my religion/meditation/whatever .... thanks to music in general, and thanks to f.i. Bach and the organ in particular. To me, listening to pieces like BWV 544, 548, 582, 659-661 and 682 (just mentioning a few) can be a spiritual uplifting experience, especially in live concerts.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on January 25, 2015, 07:15:46 AM
I am currently trying to get those interpretations that appeal to me. I already have Hans Fagius on BIS, which is good, but not entirely to my taste anymore, Gerhard Weinberger, and the Aeolus box. I have Andre Isoir in the waiting queue, but a member on this forum had its doubts about the legato, and the pulse of the music. I would be interested in complete cycles, not individual cd's. So I welcome suggestions plus motivation please. Maybe not such an interesting topic, but its important to me, so please...........
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 25, 2015, 08:10:23 AM
Hi Harry - now I'm not 'jumping into' this thread as an 'organ expert' and not certainly one who has heard the many complete sets of these works - however, I was just reading a long list of discussions about the Bach organ works on the Bach Cantatas Website (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/Organ-Complete-Gen1.htm) (Don, i.e. Bulldog has frequent posts) - it's from a dozen years ago but numerous sets are mentioned and reviewed.

For myself, I have the Koopman and the Alain boxes below - I've only heard individual discs of a few others - I prefer the Alain performances but have not really done any close comparative listenings (wife dislikes organ, so have to play when she's out of the house or on my wireless headphones) - NOW, I was also curious about the Vernet box but seems to be OOP (outrageous pricing on Amazon USA).

So here just to see the upcoming posts - good luck in your selection(s) - Dave :)

P.S. Just found  this article (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html) by Jens w/ pics of available sets (a LOT!), many OOP!
.
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-NLJQsCL/0/O/Bach_OrganKoopman.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-R7S4NQx/0/O/Bach_Organ_Alain.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-CmW4RVr/0/O/Bach_OrganVernet.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on January 25, 2015, 09:14:03 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 25, 2015, 08:10:23 AM
Hi Harry - now I'm not 'jumping into' this thread as an 'organ expert' and not certainly one who has heard the many complete sets of these works - however, I was just reading a long list of discussions about the Bach organ works on the Bach Cantatas Website (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/Organ-Complete-Gen1.htm) (Don, i.e. Bulldog has frequent posts) - it's from a dozen years ago but numerous sets are mentioned and reviewed.

For myself, I have the Koopman and the Alain boxes below - I've only heard individual discs of a few others - I prefer the Alain performances but have not really done any close comparative listenings (wife dislikes organ, so have to play when she's out of the house or on my wireless headphones) - NOW, I was also curious about the Vernet box but seems to be OOP (outrageous pricing on Amazon USA).

So here just to see the upcoming posts - good luck in your selection(s) - Dave :)

P.S. Just found  this article (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html) by Jens w/ pics of available sets (a LOT!), many OOP!
.
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-NLJQsCL/0/O/Bach_OrganKoopman.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-R7S4NQx/0/O/Bach_Organ_Alain.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-CmW4RVr/0/O/Bach_OrganVernet.jpg)

The list from Jens is helpful, but boy they are almost all OOP. But I can work from it.
Thank you.
The vernet was on my list too, but also OOP, or as you said ridiculous pricing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Moonfish on January 25, 2015, 11:24:09 AM
I have been reading a lot about Bach's organ works lately in this excellent GMG thread:   8)
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,638.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,638.0.html)

Did you want a thread devoted specifically to complete sets, Harry?  There is quite a bit of discussion of sets in the GMG thread above. I have also been diving into Bach's immense organ music universe lately and happened to choose Chapuis as my guide and will most likely listen to Alain 3 next.  Chapuis has made me connect strongly to the trio sonatas. Beautiful! Regardless, the journey continues. I strongly suspect that each cycle has its own strengths and weaknesses. Again, the thread above is an immense resource and fun read!

[asin] B005HO1WCY[/asin]
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Moonfish on January 25, 2015, 11:32:32 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 25, 2015, 08:10:23 AM
Hi Harry - now I'm not 'jumping into' this thread as an 'organ expert' and not certainly one who has heard the many complete sets of these works - however, I was just reading a long list of discussions about the Bach organ works on the Bach Cantatas Website (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/Organ-Complete-Gen1.htm) (Don, i.e. Bulldog has frequent posts) - it's from a dozen years ago but numerous sets are mentioned and reviewed.

For myself, I have the Koopman and the Alain boxes below - I've only heard individual discs of a few others - I prefer the Alain performances but have not really done any close comparative listenings (wife dislikes organ, so have to play when she's out of the house or on my wireless headphones) - NOW, I was also curious about the Vernet box but seems to be OOP (outrageous pricing on Amazon USA).

So here just to see the upcoming posts - good luck in your selection(s) - Dave :)

P.S. Just found  this article (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html) by Jens w/ pics of available sets (a LOT!), many OOP!
.
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-NLJQsCL/0/O/Bach_OrganKoopman.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-R7S4NQx/0/O/Bach_Organ_Alain.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-CmW4RVr/0/O/Bach_OrganVernet.jpg)


Dave,
Ha ha! I have the same problem with my wife although she includes the harpsichord as a negative soundscape as well. We made a bargain. In exchange for not playing organ/harpsichord I could play any vocal work of choice including any opera. I thought it was a fair bargain, but I have to resort to headphones for the organ/harpsichord works or take them with me on my commute (which is not as a good listening environment).   I happened to get an affordable copy of Vernet from France the other week. I am still focused on Chapuis, but hope to listen more to Alain II & III that many seem to adore. Opinions are highly variable. I think I have to look for a combination of playing and organ (which seem like extremely variable beasts) to fit my own musical temperament. At least we have a LOT of choices in this repertoire!!!   0:)
Besides, it seems cycles are more of a high dosage exposure to attune to the works. Individual discs are likely to be the best path. Cycles are of course convenient.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on January 25, 2015, 12:53:22 PM
Dear friends, I did not know this thread existed, and yes its rather complete, so I will take my lead from there. Still I keep interested in new insights.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 25, 2015, 02:04:14 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 25, 2015, 11:32:32 AM

Dave,
Ha ha! I have the same problem with my wife although she includes the harpsichord as a negative soundscape as well. We made a bargain. In exchange for not playing organ/harpsichord I could play any vocal work of choice including any opera. I thought it was a fair bargain, but I have to resort to headphones for the organ/harpsichord works or take them with me on my commute (which is not as a good listening environment).   I happened to get an affordable copy of Vernet from France the other week. I am still focused on Chapuis, but hope to listen more to Alain II & III that many seem to adore. Opinions are highly variable. I think I have to look for a combination of playing and organ (which seem like extremely variable beasts) to fit my own musical temperament. At least we have a LOT of choices in this repertoire!!!   0:)
Besides, it seems cycles are more of a high dosage exposure to attune to the works. Individual discs are likely to be the best path. Cycles are of course convenient.

Well, neither of us are opera fans (so not a problem; believe I have one disc each of Mozart & Verdi overtures - simplifies my music collecting, a little) - Susan does not mind harpsichord in chamber works but does balk @ my MUCHO solo recordings - she also dislikes the violin in small groups (although I'm now playing some beautiful Spohr string quartets and she's not complaining - YEA!) - BUT, she is a singer and sometimes I'll play choral music (like Bach cantatas) most of the day w/o a peep from her - however, in my retirement, I do use my 'wireless' headphones when necessary.  Dave :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 25, 2015, 02:11:32 PM
I disliked Ton Koopman so much that I donated it to my local library. Apart from gratuitously including sung versions of the chorales in the chorale preludes, his registrations and phrasings often sound dull and eccentric to my ears. That said, I only got through 3-4 of the discs before giving up. I do like Peter Hurford for a complete set, and I like the older recordings by E. Power Biggs, but that's just me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: North Star on January 25, 2015, 02:37:26 PM
Foccroulle does the trick for me, with the Schnitger, Silbermann, Schott & other organs.
https://www.youtube.com/v/5e33auGtzrY
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Todd on January 25, 2015, 08:14:24 PM
I like my Bach organ music with a French accent.  Vernet is my favorite, followed by Alain II.  I should probably try Alain I and/or III one day.  Here's a more exhaustive listing of Bach's organ music recordings. (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/Organ-Complete.htm)

James Kibbie's recordings can be downloaded for free. (http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Ken B on January 26, 2015, 06:36:45 AM
I'm a Walcha fan from way back, but the set I like best is Vernet. Great playing, stellar sound, wide variety of gorgeous (French) organs.

I have all these:
Vernet
Preston
Kraft
Bowyer
Fagius

and large chunks of Koopman and Hurford. I have dribs and drabs by Rubsam, Isoir, Leonhardt, Butt.

Preston is very interesting but I sometimes wonder if I like it so much. Worth having as a different approach. Bowyer is very good, and very cheap, but lacks the variety of organs one hopes for. I enjoy Butt very much but only have one disc. If he made a complete set I'd be looking to buy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on January 26, 2015, 08:03:04 AM
The Vernet is difficult to get, the Preston I have also, as Fagius. But I get good reports about the Vernet, so that might be the next set for me.
Thank you for letting me know Ken :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 26, 2015, 08:31:32 AM
Quote from: Harry's on January 26, 2015, 08:03:04 AM
The Vernet is difficult to get, the Preston I have also, as Fagius. But I get good reports about the Vernet, so that might be the next set for me.
Thank you for letting me know Ken :)

Well, looks like I need to replace a set of my two w/ Vernet - will keep Alain II, which I do enjoy!  For the 'physical' package, below are the current offerings on Amazon USA - will be curious to look for better pricing 'across the pond' or possibly even a digital download (BUT that's a LOT of work!).  Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-wmNK7Xx/0/O/Bach_VernetAmazon.png)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 26, 2015, 09:05:19 AM

I think you should forget about a complete set. I mean, why? You already have three!!!!!! And it's unlikely that the same guy who can do CU3 well will also be excellent in an early flashy toccata.

I suggest you get the three recordings made by Jens Christensen. That'll keep you occupied for quite a while.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on January 26, 2015, 09:54:24 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 26, 2015, 09:05:19 AM
I think you should forget about a complete set. I mean, why? You already have three!!!!!! And it's unlikely that the same guy who can do CU3 well will also be excellent in an early flashy toccata.

I suggest you get the three recordings made by Jens Christensen. That'll keep you occupied for quite a while.

Thank you for your thoughts, I will keep it in mind. But to the question why another complete set, well, that is called "the addictive urge", I simply love the Organ and Bach, and I am looking for a set that will balance the 3 I already have. Jens Christensen is on my list.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 26, 2015, 10:32:12 AM
Harry, I had to collect my thoughts on this topic! :)

I've come to the conclusion that I am super picky in this matter (wel, I guess anything concerning organ music in general  8)). As a general rule it has to be HIP and on appropriate (period) instruments.  But rules can be broken.... ::)

Unlike, or so it seems, everybody else I actualy do like Ton Koopman - very much so. Whether his early Novalis recordings (reissued by Brilliant), his incidental DG/Archiv recordings or his Teldec set, I like it. Though I am suprised about the remark of him being "dull" - usually criticism goes into the exact opposite direction: too jittery, too fussy, too free, too much use of embellishments. I like the Teldec set best: matured but still imaginative and steady enough for my taste. 8)

I'm generally not much into the French approach. Isoir and Alain seem to me by gone Old School playing and/or "modified/converted" HIP. They and HIP pioneer Chapuis show their French roots. Nothing wrong with that BTW, but for me inappropriate in Bach.

I reserve any judgement on Focroulle,  who is BTW not French but Belgian...

Perhaps by now all the more suprising that I'd like to point out Olivier Vernet's Bach set as one that is extremely good and worthwhile.  :D He comes IMO waaayyy closer to the "real deal" than any of his French predecessors (he was a pupil of Alain). Perhaps ultimately lacking that certain sobriety and Calvinistic touch that permeates Dutch, Danish and German organ traditions and with a hint of French flavour (a slight taste for "colouring"). But it is close enough and so good, what does it really matter? :D

I am breaking more of my own rules by pointing out Alessio Corti. I own only some of his recordings and his completecycle is still on my wish list, but even though he plays on non-authentic Italian instruments - he sounds so right on the money -he must be a winner IMO.

For the non-existing "dream" cycles in my mind, I would like to nominate new young Dutch kid on the block Leon Berben and German organist Felix Friedrich...

And then there is that existing but unavailable cycle by Dutch Ewald Kooiman...but I have a hunch that will materialise one day.. ;)


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: marvinbrown on January 26, 2015, 10:34:12 AM

  Personally I love the Peter Hurford set. The phrasing is so clear and direct- none of this Koopman embellishment business.  But unless you don't mind downloads good luck finding CD versions at an affordable price as it has gone out of print.

  I have Koopman, Hurford and Walcha which I have yet to hear.  Rumour has it though that once you have been "Walcha-ed "you never go back. 

  marvin
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Ken B on January 26, 2015, 10:39:07 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 26, 2015, 08:31:32 AM
Well, looks like I need to replace a set of my two w/ Vernet - will keep Alain II, which I do enjoy!  For the 'physical' package, below are the current offerings on Amazon USA - will be curious to look for better pricing 'across the pond' or possibly even a digital download (BUT that's a LOT of work!).  Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-wmNK7Xx/0/O/Bach_VernetAmazon.png)

Gougers! They think people will pay $350? Crazy.

Mine can be had for only $339.99 + $8.95 S&H
I take paypal.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on January 26, 2015, 10:46:58 AM
Quote from: Que on January 26, 2015, 10:32:12 AM
Harry, I had to collect my thoughts on this topic! :)

I've come to the conclusion that I am super picky in this matter (wel, I guess anything concerning organ music in general  8)). As a general rule it has to be HIP and on appropriate (period) instruments.  But rules can be broken.... ::)

Unlike, or so it seems, everybody else I actualy do like Ton Koopman - very much so. Whether his early Novalis recordings (reissued by Brilliant), his incidental DG/Archiv recordings or his Teldec set, I like it. Though I am suprised about the remark of him being "dull" - usually criticism goes into the exact opposite direction: too jittery, too fussy, too free, too much use of embellishments. I like the Teldec set best: matured but still imaginative and steady enough for my taste. 8)

I'm generally not much into the French approach. Chapuis, Isoir, Alain, it's all by gone Old School playing and/or "modified/converted" HIP. And they all betray their French roots. Nothing wrong with that BTW, but for me inappropriate in Bach.

I reserve any judgement on Focroulle,  who is BTW not French but Belgian...

Perhaps by now all the more suprising that I'd like to point out Olivier Vernet's Bach set as one that is extremely good and worthwhile.  :D He comes IMO waaayyy closer to the "real deal" than any of his French predecessors (he was a pupil of Alain). Perhaps ultimately lacking that certain sobriety and Calvinistic touch that permeates Dutch, Danish and German organ traditions and with a hint of French flavour (a slight taste for "colouring"). But it is close enough and so good, what does it really matter? :D

I am breaking more of my own rules by pointing out Alessio Corti. I own only some of his recordings and his completecycle is still on my wish list, but even though he plays on non-authentic Italian instruments - he sounds so right on the money -he must be a winner IMO.

For the non-existing "dream" cycles in my mind, I would like to nominate new young Dutch kid on the block Leon Berben and German organist Felix Friedrich...

And then there is that existing but unavailable cycle by Dutch Ewald Kooiman...but I have a hunch that will materialise one day.. ;)

The  Alessio Corti box is a very expensive deal, and the samples I hear on JPC are of bad quality, but I like his pace.....
I have a hate/love relation with Koopman, hard for me to stomach his characteristic way of playing.
Vernet is on my list, and yes the elusive cycle will materialize one day!
Thanks Que for your thoughts.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Todd on January 26, 2015, 10:48:10 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 26, 2015, 10:34:12 AMRumour has it though that once you have been "Walcha-ed "you never go back.



I can confirm that is unfounded rumor only.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Ken B on January 26, 2015, 11:06:10 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 26, 2015, 10:34:12 AM
  Rumour has it though that once you have been "Walcha-ed "you never go back. 

Teach men not to Walcha.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 26, 2015, 01:00:34 PM
Quote from: Que on January 26, 2015, 10:32:12 AM
Unlike, or so it seems, everybody else I actualy do like Ton Koopman - very much so. Whether his early Novalis recordings (reissued by Brilliant), his incidental DG/Archiv recordings or his Teldec set, I like it. Though I am suprised about the remark of him being "dull" - usually criticism goes into the exact opposite direction: too jittery, too fussy, too free, too much use of embellishments. I
like the Teldec set best: matured but still imaginative and steady enough for my taste. 8)

To clarify: I find the registrations dull, the phrasings eccentric.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 26, 2015, 01:05:35 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 26, 2015, 10:34:12 AM
  Personally I love the Peter Hurford set. The phrasing is so clear and direct- none of this Koopman embellishment business.  But unless you don't mind downloads good luck finding CD versions at an affordable price as it has gone out of print.

Aye. On US Amazon, you can find "new" copies for 756.99, 1,674.01, and 1,989.90. Plus shipping. And a few used copies from 137.96. Plus shipping.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on January 26, 2015, 01:43:35 PM
Quote from: Que on January 26, 2015, 10:32:12 AM
For the non-existing "dream" cycles in my mind, I would like to nominate new young Dutch kid on the block Leon Berben and German organist Felix Friedrich...

I think I would enjoy Friedhelm Flamme playing some Bach. I know his JSB "Incerta": a disk of works of questionable authenticity and it's delightful.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: RebLem on January 26, 2015, 03:55:35 PM
I have Kevin Bowyer (19 Nimbus CDs) and Marie Claire Alain--I think its III.  I think I still have another Alain cycle packed away in cardboard boxes on MHS LPs (probably Alain I?)  I also have lots of abbreviated cycles--about 8 CDs of Anthony Newman, and a few singles and doubles here and there.  Peter Hurford did a complete set, but there is also a 2 CD set of Hurford doing just the most popular of Bach's organ works; I have that, but not the complete set.

To me, Alain is tops.  Most of Bach's organ works are not among his better works, and one complete set and a smattering of single or double discs by a few others ought to fill the bill for all but professional organists and people who are just obsessive compulsives about Bach organ music.  For me, the complete Alain coupled with a few supplements from other artists is enough.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Ken B on January 26, 2015, 04:21:35 PM
Quote from: RebLem on January 26, 2015, 03:55:35 PM
I have Kevin Bowyer (19 Nimbus CDs) and Marie Claire Alain--I think its III.  I think I still have another Alain cycle packed away in cardboard boxes on MHS LPs (probably Alain I?)  I also have lots of abbreviated cycles--about 8 CDs of Anthony Newman, and a few singles and doubles here and there.  Peter Hurford did a complete set, but there is also a 2 CD set of Hurford doing just the most popular of Bach's organ works; I have that, but not the complete set.

To me, Alain is tops.  Most of Bach's organ works are not among his better works, and one complete set and a smattering of single or double discs by a few others ought to fill the bill for all but professional organists and people who are just obsessive compulsives about Bach organ music.  For me, the complete Alain coupled with a few supplements from other artists is enough.

I found Newman borderline deranged. Some of the tempi are so fast he slurs triplets etc. an organist friend asked me if I thought that was how it should sound, and was glad when I said I didn't think so!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on January 26, 2015, 05:39:06 PM
Superlove to Vernet.
Focroulle is good. 
I happen to like Preston; it was my first set.
Alain II is good except for the chorales, where she seemed to be turning out music required by her contract.
The multi artist cycle on Hanssler (as part of their Complete Bach Edition) is generally good quality.
Koopman...come to think of it, I am underenthused by his Teldec cycle, although the sung chorales add interest.
Kibbie is worth the money you pay for his cycle.

That is every cycle I have.  The one I would suggest without reservations is Vernet, although I can see why the pricing is a problem. The set does come with three bonus CDs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 26, 2015, 08:38:26 PM
OK - NOW, I'm really interested in getting the Vernet performances, but how @ a decent price - the physical CDs are just not available @ a decent cost, SO are there any download options?  I've been searching a little today and found few if any choices - BUT, one exception is shown below - this looks like an illegal site to me, i.e. the DLs are FLAC of all 19 CDs - and a price is charged but seems minimal - any thoughts?  Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-DQqCNDP/0/O/Screen%20Shot%202015-01-27%20at%2012.27.16%20AM.png)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 26, 2015, 10:01:33 PM
Quote from: RebLem on January 26, 2015, 03:55:35 PM
Most of Bach's organ works are not among his better works

Looks muuuuuch better this way....  :D

Anyway,  I didn't mention the Hanssler set probably because it has multiple performers (and I do not own it as a single set but have most volumes), but it is quite a good and interesting set overall, and well recorded. :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on January 26, 2015, 10:22:03 PM
Quote from: Que on January 26, 2015, 10:01:33 PM
Looks muuuuuch better this way....  :D

Anyway,  I didn't mention the Hanssler set probably because it has multiple performers (and I do not own it as a single set but have most volumes), but it is quite a good and interesting set overall, and well recorded. :)

Q

Good correction, I was absolute flabbergasted reading this, not amongst his better works indeed. ??? 8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on January 26, 2015, 10:22:50 PM
So we all wait until Vernet is re-issued, which will happen after all the love shown on this thread 0:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 27, 2015, 02:50:41 AM
Quote from: Gordo on January 26, 2015, 01:43:35 PM
I think I would enjoy Friedhelm Flamme playing some Bach. I know his JSB "Incerta": a disk of works of questionable authenticity and it's delightful.  :)

Agreed.

His complete North German organ encyclopædia ought to include a complete Buxtehude set, and if "complete" may be  taken litterally even some Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on January 27, 2015, 03:19:41 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 27, 2015, 02:50:41 AM
Agreed.

His complete North German organ encyclopædia ought to include a complete Buxtehude set, and if "complete" may be  taken litterally even some Bach.

Friedhelm Flamme is no doubt a good organist, and I have some of his North German organ series. Still I can take Flamme only in small doses, for his art of playing is one that irritates me at times. For Buxtehude we might safely turn to Harald Vogel and others, and as for Bach, well I shudder at the thought.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 27, 2015, 07:02:37 AM
I was quite surprised at Harry's's strong reaction because there are some things by Flamme which I like a lot - eg Weckmann's Es ist das heil uns kommen hier. I keep meaning to explore his Praetorius CDs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on January 27, 2015, 07:10:23 AM
Friedrich Flamme, yes, well, I am not the only one that has this problem with him, Que for one has the same doubts about the way he plays. And for that matter its rather hard to explain this, words to find to cover the aversion. But let me try. I find his style often to be edgy, a certain nervousness in his playing, accents which he gives too much weight,  too much of his personality, the way he handles dynamics etc etc. His technique is devoid of warmth, even harsh at times. This said, I have cd's from his hand, and I can mildly enjoyed them, but will never love them.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on January 27, 2015, 11:05:14 AM
Quote from: RebLem on January 26, 2015, 03:55:35 PM
To me, Alain is tops.  Most of Bach's organ works are not among his better works, and one complete set and a smattering of single or double discs by a few others ought to fill the bill for all but professional organists and people who are just obsessive compulsives about Bach organ music.  For me, the complete Alain coupled with a few supplements from other artists is enough.

It always strikes me how opposite our respective views are on everything (social, political and musical).  Anyways, I think your comment about "obsessive compulsives" is rather over-the-top.   There's nothing unusual about a Bach organ works enthusiast owning many more recordings than you recommend.  What's good for you is just, well, good for you.  Have a good day in warm Albuquerque and make sure to drive in the proper lanes.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 27, 2015, 12:09:34 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 27, 2015, 07:02:37 AM
I was quite surprised at Harry's's strong reaction because there are some things by Flamme which I like a lot - eg Weckmann's Es ist das heil uns kommen hier. I keep meaning to explore his Praetorius CDs.

I had identical feelings like you. Well, Flamme is in some areas an acquired taste, which I fortunately have acquired by now. F.i. I had some problems with his Böhm set, but particularly his Weckmann set and his different Prætorius sets I found immediately appealing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Ken B on January 27, 2015, 03:36:31 PM
Quote from: Harry's on January 26, 2015, 10:22:03 PM
Good correction, I was absolute flabbergasted reading this, not amongst his better works indeed. ??? 8)

I thought it unworthy of retort or notice, and best discreetly passed over in silence, like your senile great-uncle drooling into his soup at Christmas dinner. We all have embarassing moments.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on January 30, 2015, 02:28:40 AM
I have listened extensively to the Andre Isoir box, and sampled through all cd's, more than once. There are a lot of things I like. First of all I have no trouble with the amount of legato. It gives rest to the more turbulent pieces by Bach, and almost turns serene in the slower and softer pieces. Rhythmically he can be very imprecise, almost chaotic in the deliverance of complex Praeludiums and Fugas. Not always but frequently, this disturbs me. He can linger in such a way that coherence is lost, and the music drifts off in undefinable realms. All in all I think it is a good set, but I will take it off my list to buy this. The price for this set is still to high for me. The recordings from 1971-1991, are sometimes very good, but there are clearly some very bad ones. And the choices he made for certain organs, is something which bothers me also, though not all of them.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 30, 2015, 08:07:45 AM
Quote from: Harry's on January 30, 2015, 02:28:40 AM
I have listened extensively to the Andre Isoir box, and sampled through all cd's, more than once. There are a lot of things I like. First of all I have no trouble with the amount of legato. It gives rest to the more turbulent pieces by Bach, and almost turns serene in the slower and softer pieces. Rhythmically he can be very imprecise, almost chaotic in the deliverance of complex Praeludiums and Fugas. Not always but frequently, this disturbs me. He can linger in such a way that coherence is lost, and the music drifts off in undefinable realms. All in all I think it is a good set, but I will take it off my list to buy this. The price for this set is still to high for me. The recordings from 1971-1991, are sometimes very good, but there are clearly some very bad ones. And the choices he made for certain organs, is something which bothers me also, though not all of them.

I think at the very least you should hear Isoir's Art of Fugue. As far as I recall that's the one JSB recording of his that I really value, even though I can think of at least half a dozen AoFs I'd rather hear.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 31, 2015, 08:41:27 AM
Quote from: Harry's on January 25, 2015, 07:15:46 AM
I am currently trying to get those interpretations that appeal to me. I already have Hans Fagius on BIS, which is good, but not entirely to my taste anymore, Gerhard Weinberger, and the Aeolus box. I have Andre Isoir in the waiting queue, but a member on this forum had its doubts about the legato, and the pulse of the music. I would be interested in complete cycles, not individual cd's. So I welcome suggestions plus motivation please. Maybe not such an interesting topic, but its important to me, so please...........

Quote from: Harry's on January 26, 2015, 08:03:04 AM
The Vernet is difficult to get, the Preston I have also, as Fagius. But I get good reports about the Vernet, so that might be the next set for me.
Thank you for letting me know Ken :)

So you already have: Fagius, Preston, Weinberger and Kooiman & pupils.

Since you own the latter two, I don't think Foccroulle (who's very good btw) will be adding that much, he's (more or less) in the same league.
Vernet is a very enthousiastic Bach interpreter, and, like Preston, he's playing a variety of baroque and 'modern' baroque organs (built by Aubertin and others) which are a treat to the ears.
Alain was Vernet's teacher, and one might say that she's a bit more mechanical compared to her pupil. Still, I find her very convincing.
Koopman is a mixed bag, a bit too hasty and virtuoso sometimes in the chorale free works, but his choice of instruments is fine, and he can be very impressive and convincing in the chorale based works.
Isoir is different, more 'old style', but he might add something different to what you already know.

Maybe you should try a disc of Wolfgang Rübsam's Naxos cycle to find out if you like his way of playing. This cycle has never been issued as a box set, but I think he'd be an interesting add-on to your collection, because he is almost a league of his own with his very personal approach towards articulation, rubato, rhytm and tempi.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on January 31, 2015, 09:44:47 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 31, 2015, 08:41:27 AM
So you already have: Fagius, Preston, Weinberger and Kooiman & pupils.

Since you own the latter two, I don't think Foccroulle (who's very good btw) will be adding that much, he's (more or less) in the same league.
Vernet is a very enthousiastic Bach interpreter, and, like Preston, he's playing a variety of baroque and 'modern' baroque organs (built by Aubertin and others) which are a treat to the ears.
Alain was Vernet's teacher, and one might say that she's a bit more mechanical compared to her pupil. Still, I find her very convincing.
Koopman is a mixed bag, a bit too hasty and virtuoso sometimes in the chorale free works, but his choice of instruments is fine, and he can be very impressive and convincing in the chorale based works.
Isoir is different, more 'old style', but he might add something different to what you already know.

Maybe you should try a disc of Wolfgang Rübsam's Naxos cycle to find out if you like his way of playing. This cycle has never been issued as a box set, but I think he'd be an interesting add-on to your collection, because he is almost a league of his own with his very personal approach towards articulation, rubato, rhytm and tempi.

Thank you for this tip, I never thought of Rubsam at all. I will sample him. Isoir choice of organs is not always to my liking, and some of his recordings are not that good, and although his interpretation has a strange attraction to me, I will hold it off for now. Vernet is in the queue if I can find a copy that has a normal price.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on January 31, 2015, 11:21:30 AM
The price of the Vernet is especially startling when you consider the fact that I and several others got that set as a SuperDuperCheapBargain from JPC...I don't remember the actual price,  but I think it was in the €20 range.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Ken B on January 31, 2015, 11:23:46 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 31, 2015, 11:21:30 AM
The price of the Vernet is especially startling when you consider the fact that I and several others got that set as a SuperDuperCheapBargain from JPC...I don't remember the actual price,  but I think it was in the €20 range.

Yep. A happy memory.

Look on SDCBT right now for the Teldec complete Bach. 5 left at Azon Italy
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on January 31, 2015, 11:37:28 AM
Quote from: Ken B on January 31, 2015, 11:23:46 AM
Yep. A happy memory.

Look on SDCBT right now for the Teldec complete Bach. 5 left at Azon Italy
Got that a couple of years ago.  Koopman's cycle is part of that.
Most interesting part of that for me was the chorales for 4 part chorus, the choral chorales so to speak.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 01, 2015, 02:17:52 AM
Quote from: Harry's on January 31, 2015, 09:44:47 AM
Thank you for this tip, I never thought of Rubsam at all. I will sample him. Isoir choice of organs is not always to my liking, and some of his recordings are not that good, and although his interpretation has a strange attraction to me, I will hold it off for now. Vernet is in the queue if I can find a copy that has a normal price.

If you can stand legato playing, then maybe Wolfgang Stockmeier (Membran) is another option.
He's also in a different league than the four you've already got.
Stockmeier is playing a dozen or so Kreienbrink instruments in Germany and they have an attractive fresh sound.

http://www.youtube.com/v/M6UtbtTluXM

http://www.amazon.com/Stockmeier-Das-Orgelwerk-1-Wolfgang/dp/B000H9HZGG/?tag=goodmusicguideco

http://www.amazon.com/Das-Orgelwerk-2-Wolfgang-Stockmeier-Organ/dp/B000H9HZGQ/?tag=goodmusicguideco

http://www.amazon.de/Stockmeier-Das-Orgelwerk-1-Wolfgang/dp/B000H9HZGG/

http://www.amazon.de/Das-Orgelwerk-2-Wolfgang-Stockmeier-Organ/dp/B000H9HZGQ/

(As you can see at amazon.de: the boxes are about 16 € each. Prices that will make a true Dutchman happy. ;))
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 04:11:25 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 01, 2015, 02:17:52 AM
If you can stand legato playing, then maybe Wolfgang Stockmeier (Membran) is another option.
He's also in a different league than the four you've already got.
Stockmeier is playing a dozen or so Kreienbrink instruments in Germany and they have an attractive fresh sound.

http://www.youtube.com/v/M6UtbtTluXM

http://www.amazon.com/Stockmeier-Das-Orgelwerk-1-Wolfgang/dp/B000H9HZGG/?tag=goodmusicguideco

http://www.amazon.com/Das-Orgelwerk-2-Wolfgang-Stockmeier-Organ/dp/B000H9HZGQ/?tag=goodmusicguideco

http://www.amazon.de/Stockmeier-Das-Orgelwerk-1-Wolfgang/dp/B000H9HZGG/

http://www.amazon.de/Das-Orgelwerk-2-Wolfgang-Stockmeier-Organ/dp/B000H9HZGQ/

(As you can see at amazon.de: the boxes are about 16 € each. Prices that will make a true Dutchman happy. ;))

Why should anyone have a problem with legato?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on February 01, 2015, 05:31:13 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 01, 2015, 02:17:52 AM
If you can stand legato playing, then maybe Wolfgang Stockmeier (Membran) is another option.
He's also in a different league than the four you've already got.
Stockmeier is playing a dozen or so Kreienbrink instruments in Germany and they have an attractive fresh sound.

http://www.youtube.com/v/M6UtbtTluXM

http://www.amazon.com/Stockmeier-Das-Orgelwerk-1-Wolfgang/dp/B000H9HZGG/?tag=goodmusicguideco

http://www.amazon.com/Das-Orgelwerk-2-Wolfgang-Stockmeier-Organ/dp/B000H9HZGQ/?tag=goodmusicguideco

http://www.amazon.de/Stockmeier-Das-Orgelwerk-1-Wolfgang/dp/B000H9HZGG/

http://www.amazon.de/Das-Orgelwerk-2-Wolfgang-Stockmeier-Organ/dp/B000H9HZGQ/

(As you can see at amazon.de: the boxes are about 16 € each. Prices that will make a true Dutchman happy. ;))

Yes I have sampled the Stockmeier recordings, and apart from the good price range, I like the quietness in his playing. Everything unfolds in a unhurried way, so I might order these interpretations. Thank you again for remembering me about these Membran recordings.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on February 01, 2015, 05:35:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 04:11:25 AM
Why should anyone have a problem with legato?
Because indiscriminately used isn't a historically informed trait in Baroque interpretations?

That being said, I have no problem with Stockmeier's use of legato. On the contrary, I consider that his recordings -from a spiritual standpoint- are some of the most openly uplifting that I have listened to.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on February 01, 2015, 05:37:46 AM
Quote from: Gordo on February 01, 2015, 05:35:22 AM
Because indiscriminately used isn't a historically informed trait in Baroque interpretations?

That being said, I have no problem with Stockmeier's use of legato. On the contrary, I consider that his recordings -from a spiritual standpoint- are some of the most openly uplifting that I have listened to.

Good to hear. I will double my effort listening to them. Only 26 euro's for the set of 20 cd's. I think that is a deal.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on February 01, 2015, 05:47:16 AM
Quote from: Harry's on February 01, 2015, 05:37:46 AM
Good to hear. I will double my effort listening to them. Only 26 euro's for the set of 20 cd's. I think that is a deal.

I think you have felt quite exactly the Stockmeier's essence: "I like the quietness in his playing. Everything unfolds in a unhurried way..." I think if those traits are valuable for you, probably Herrick would be also an interesting path to explore.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on February 01, 2015, 06:09:03 AM
Quote from: Gordo on February 01, 2015, 05:47:16 AM
I think you have felt quite exactly the Stockmeier's essence: "I like the quietness in his playing. Everything unfolds in a unhurried way..." I think if those traits are valuable for you, probably Herrick would be also an interesting path to explore.

Wish I could get the Herrick recordings, those are on the top of my list, but they are OOP, and according to Hyperion they will not re-release them.
I have the Neumeister Chorale by him and I absolutely revel in them.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on February 01, 2015, 06:12:17 AM
If I compare Andre Isoir and Stockmeier, I find they have a lot in common, be it that the Isoir recordings have a more profound character.  Same use of legato, also but less quietness, organs are better as the ones Stockmeier uses. More rubato also, a warmer sound overall.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on February 01, 2015, 07:13:21 AM
Quote from: Harry's on February 01, 2015, 06:09:03 AM
Wish I could get the Herrick recordings, those are on the top of my list, but they are OOP, and according to Hyperion they will not re-release them.
I have the Neumeister Chorale by him and I absolutely revel in them.

I was lucky enough to buy on time the boxset released after the cycle was completed. Though Herrick isn't a favorite around here, I unreservedly like his interpretations.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on February 01, 2015, 07:17:27 AM
Quote from: Harry's on February 01, 2015, 06:12:17 AM
If I compare Andre Isoir and Stockmeier, I find they have a lot in common, be it that the Isoir recordings have a more profound character.  Same use of legato, also but less quietness, organs are better as the ones Stockmeier uses. More rubato also, a warmer sound overall.

I'm not sure: Isoir is a lot more arbitrary, full of fugitive visions; deep, but disjointed. He would be as Stockmeier, but after a lysergic flight.  :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 07:55:09 AM
I suppose legato is a matter of degree. I've never seen any historical discussion of this though, for all I know it could be an internet myth - if you know of anything I'd be interested in a pointer.  I was struck earlier this week by how much portato Foccroulle uses, for example, and he's interested in authentic performance I think.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 01, 2015, 09:54:44 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 07:55:09 AM
I suppose legato is a matter of degree. I've never seen any historical discussion of this though, for all I know it could be an internet myth - if you know of anything I'd be interested in a pointer.  I was struck earlier this week by how much portato Foccroulle uses, for example, and he's interested in authentic performance I think.

What we are talking about here is - I suppose - long stretches of unbroken legato, i.e. no "air" between the notes at all. This way of articulation is surely unauthentic, when used indiscriminately, as Gordo writes. May I recommend the excellent treatise by Kooiman, Weinberger and Busch: Zur Interpretation der Orgelmusik J.S.Bachs, Edition Merseburger 1995.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on February 01, 2015, 10:06:17 AM
Quote from: Gordo on February 01, 2015, 07:13:21 AM
I was lucky enough to buy on time the boxset released after the cycle was completed. Though Herrick isn't a favorite around here, I unreservedly like his interpretations.

I acquired the Herrick recordings as they were first released and never regretted the purchases.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on February 01, 2015, 10:16:56 AM
Quote from: Sammy on February 01, 2015, 10:06:17 AM
I acquired the Herrick recordings as they were first released and never regretted the purchases.

O, Boy I wished I had done that too :(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on February 01, 2015, 10:17:39 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 01, 2015, 09:54:44 AM
What we are talking about here is - I suppose - long stretches of unbroken legato, i.e. no "air" between the notes at all. This way of articulation is surely unauthentic, when used indiscriminately, as Gordo writes. May I recommend the excellent treatise by Kooiman, Weinberger and Busch: Zur Interpretation der Orgelmusik J.S.Bachs, Edition Merseburger 1995.

This I am reading!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 01, 2015, 11:16:40 AM
That Kooiman/Weinberger book is certainly interesting ... if one understands German of course. ;)

Personally, I prefer Bach played with a lively articulation and phrasing, but I can appreciate many different ways of playing when his organ music is concerned.

Did we already mention Knud Vad as a good alternative for Harry?

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 11:41:49 AM
I don't read German unfortunately. There's nothing in English or French?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 01, 2015, 01:50:36 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2015, 11:41:49 AM
I don't read German unfortunately. There's nothing in English or French?

Kooiman & Weinberger's book is a very interesting essay, but, IIRC, they do not claim they are presenting some kind of an undeniable historical truth.
Likewise, Peter Williams Volume 3 of his famous work The organ music of J.S. Bach (published by Cambridge University Press), is presenting a background based on historical sources. Again, in the end there are maybe more questions than answers.

To make things more 'easy', here's a few links that you might find interesting.
First, some guiding articles for the organist, and quite understandable for the interested layman, to get a general idea:

http://www.organduo.lt/home/how-to-choose-the-best-fingering-in-early-organ-music
http://www.organduo.lt/home/how-to-choose-the-most-efficient-fingering-for-organ-music-composed-after-1800-part-1
http://www.organduo.lt/home/how-to-choose-the-most-efficient-fingering-for-organ-music-composed-after-1800-part-2

More specific stuff about keyboard practice and articulation during Bach's time:
http://www.academia.edu/291948/Keyboard_technique_and_articulation_evidence_for_the_performance_practices_of_Bach_Handel_and_Scarlatti

And here's a critical review of Peter Williams's book:
http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1262&context=ppr

http://www.amazon.com/The-Organ-Music-Bach-Background/dp/0521379784/?tag=goodmusicguideco
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on February 01, 2015, 10:38:45 PM
Excellent links Marc, thank you!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 02, 2015, 06:59:59 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 01, 2015, 01:50:36 PM
Kooiman & Weinberger's book is a very interesting essay, but, IIRC, they do not claim they are presenting some kind of an undeniable historical truth.
Likewise, Peter Williams Volume 3 of his famous work The organ music of J.S. Bach (published by Cambridge University Press), is presenting a background based on historical sources. Again, in the end there are maybe more questions than answers.


There is nothing surprising in this, since every scientific "truth" isn´t but a relative truth, and neither Kooiman & Weinberger nor Peter Williams pretend to offer more than part of the probable truth, and this has something to do with the character of their sources, but their way is the only sensible way to get to know at least something about the topic. The only other way is to take the score by itself as a point of departure - like f.i. Walcha - but this leads to even more questionable results.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 02, 2015, 08:08:13 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 01, 2015, 01:50:36 PM
Kooiman & Weinberger's book is a very interesting essay, but, IIRC, they do not claim they are presenting some kind of an undeniable historical truth.
Likewise, Peter Williams Volume 3 of his famous work The organ music of J.S. Bach (published by Cambridge University Press), is presenting a background based on historical sources. Again, in the end there are maybe more questions than answers.

To make things more 'easy', here's a few links that you might find interesting.
First, some guiding articles for the organist, and quite understandable for the interested layman, to get a general idea:

http://www.organduo.lt/home/how-to-choose-the-best-fingering-in-early-organ-music
http://www.organduo.lt/home/how-to-choose-the-most-efficient-fingering-for-organ-music-composed-after-1800-part-1
http://www.organduo.lt/home/how-to-choose-the-most-efficient-fingering-for-organ-music-composed-after-1800-part-2

More specific stuff about keyboard practice and articulation during Bach's time:
http://www.academia.edu/291948/Keyboard_technique_and_articulation_evidence_for_the_performance_practices_of_Bach_Handel_and_Scarlatti

And here's a critical review of Peter Williams's book:
http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1262&context=ppr

http://www.amazon.com/The-Organ-Music-Bach-Background/dp/0521379784/?tag=goodmusicguideco

Thanks I thought the article by Mark Lindley was interesting. Presumably there's no reason to think that ideas in manuals about touch in harpsichord would pass over to organ - I'm thinking of some of the things that Lindley quotes from Rameau.

Re Bach, well this discussion prompted me to listen to Egarr's Goldbergs and his WTC2. Too much legato? It's hard to separate ideas about touch from ideas about articulation. I'm not clear in my own mind about how the point at which a new note is sounded relates to the length of a phrase, and how these two ideas relate to the concept (probably ill defined) of cantabile. More questions than answers again.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mookalafalas on February 04, 2015, 12:52:43 AM
Another vote for the Knud Vad, and how about the Stefano Molardi from the humble Brilliant label?  I bought the latest Brilliant Bach box and had low expectations for the organ portion (Stefano Molardi?), but color me impressed.  Maybe it's because I'm a noob to organ, but I love his simple, clean sound.  In some of the more touted versions, I really can't follow the musical lines due to being overwhelmed by the sheer volume and density of the "wall of sound" organ effect.  Molardi, however, has made me a fan.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on February 04, 2015, 12:54:47 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on February 04, 2015, 12:52:43 AM
Another vote for the Knud Vad, and how about the Stefano Molardi from the humble Brilliant label?  I bought the latest Brilliant Bach box and had low expectations for the organ portion (Stefano Molardi?), but color me impressed.  Maybe it's because I'm a noob to organ, but I love his simple, clean sound.  In some of the more touted versions, I really can't follow the musical lines due to being overwhelmed by the sheer volume and density of the "wall of sound" organ effect.  Molardi, however, has made me a fan.

Molardi is really a bad performance, and its not only me that is thinking this, most of the critics do too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mookalafalas on February 04, 2015, 01:21:31 AM
Quote from: Harry's on February 04, 2015, 12:54:47 AM
Molardi is really a bad performance, and its not only me that is thinking this, most of the critics do too.

I'm not surprised.  The sound is simple, unadorned, and not very dramatic.  However, the critical consensus against it will not make me enjoy it less. In fact, I'm listening to it right now and enjoying it very much ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on October 30, 2015, 08:00:14 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 17, 2009, 03:48:21 AM

A German professor of mine once related this introductory sentence in an essay on Bach he (allegedly) received:

"Johann Sebastian Bach had 20 children. He was an old master of the grand organ."

But this joke does not work in German at all?! "Orgel" or "Organist" has no connotation to reproductive organs in German. (And I might be dense, but I cannot think of any German paraphrase that would make the joke work...)

(Sorry to butt in in such a frivolous fashion. But I have now read this joke for the fourth time or so working my way through this thread, and the (involuntary) joke only works in English. So whoever told it, it is at least slightly confusing to introduce him as a "German professor")
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on November 01, 2015, 09:09:45 AM
So, I think I read about 80% of this thread. And I read two and half more on two German language fora (but none of them had more than 10 pages... Exhausting and slightly confusing. There seem to be at least as many diverging opinions on the respective recordings as there are discutants...
Maybe the only recordings that seem to be generally admired (or at least respected) are Walcha's, for almost any other well known or easily available ones I find often rather decisive pro/con opinions...

Although a few famous Bach organ pieces were among the first classical music I encountered - I especially remember BWV 565 and the Wachet auf transcription (Schübler), I have not really warmed to most of those pieces even after more than 25 years. Only about the trio sonatas and maybe the Passacaglia and the E flat major P&F I could say that I love them, I don't know most of the rest very well (many pieces not at all).

Why is this a "problem"? Because I love most of the other music by Bach I know, especially the "standard" keyboard stuff and I think I *should* like the organ music better than I do in fact. I am really struggling with most of the chorale based pieces (boring) and while I like some of the big P&F etc. I tend to find the organ sound often to overwhelming and not clear enough.

It seems that in this thread the minimal unit is a complete recording.. but I do not really feel like getting one. (Among the cheap and available ones, only Walcha mono seems consensus...). I'd rather like some pointers to single (or double discs) that might change my perception that the chorale-based pieces are boring and the others "walls of sound". Or maybe how I should listen to the stuff I already have.

I list below what I already have on my shelves
(I also just ordered a "best-of" twofer of the stereo Walcha, one disc with Krapp (the CÜ "small chorales") and one double with Corti (on one German language forum there is a rabid fan of his Bach), and it was cheap...)

Koopman's cheapo 6 disc collection (originally Novalis)

Power Biggs (at Thomaskirche?) (Berlin Classics): 541, 547,565, 582

Tachezi (Teldec): BWV 542, 552, 564, 565, 582

F. Friedrich, Trost Organ Altenburg (Capriccio) BWV 545, 552, 537, 437, 680, 751, 711, 739, 769

H. Kästner, Schuke Organ Thomaskirche (Capriccio) BWV 572, 645, 542, 565, 639, 547

Spanyi (and maybe some others) on a Cheapo disc: 547, 565, "Dorian" and a few more

from the Bach on Silbermann (Berlin Classics) Vols 3, 4, and 9,
containing about 4 trio sonatas, Vom Himmel hoch, Passacaglia, 565, 542, 590, 532, 549, 539, 547, chorales etc.)

Weinberger/cpo: Vols 12 (525, 528, 566, Neumeister Chorales), 13 (P&F 552 and "great" (pedal) chorales from CÜ III) 15 (Concertos, Schübler chorals, Ricercar from BWV 1079), 16 (572, 527, 530, 769a etc.) I got those cheaply when jpc was apparently getting rid of the single discs before they put them all in the complete box.

Trio Sonatas: John Butt (hm), K. Johanssen (Hänssler), Power Biggs (pedal harpsichord, that's still my favorite from the time when I cared even less for the sound of the organ)

Clavierübung III Brosse (Pierre Verany)

incomplete AoF: Gould (Sony) this is cool but hardly sounds like a "real organ"


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on November 01, 2015, 07:06:46 PM
The only names I would suggest are Alain and Rogg.  Alain recorded a couple of CDs for (the original) Erato in addition to the full cycles she recorded.  What-used-to be EMI issued some budget duos from Rogg's cycle in its Gemini series.

When you get around to full cycles, I suggest looking at ones that go by (tentative) chronology, and not by genre.  That way you get a mix of chorales, and free form works,  instead of getting five CDs of fugues and seven of chorales and only chorales in a row (or whatever the actual CD totals might be).

My favorite cycle is Vernet, but it is now out of print and a budget buster ($350 on Amazon US Marketplace).  Individual discs are available.  But I would suggest this one as a nice change of pace
[asin]B00004VMRX[/asin]
The keyboard concertos played with chamber organs as the solo instruments.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 01, 2015, 09:24:38 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 01, 2015, 09:09:45 AM
So, I think I read about 80% of this thread. And I read two and half more on two German language fora (but none of them had more than 10 pages... Exhausting and slightly confusing. There seem to be at least as many diverging opinions on the respective recordings as there are discutants...
Maybe the only recordings that seem to be generally admired (or at least respected) are Walcha's, for almost any other well known or easily available ones I find often rather decisive pro/con opinions...

Although a few famous Bach organ pieces were among the first classical music I encountered - I especially remember BWV 565 and the Wachet auf transcription (Schübler), I have not really warmed to most of those pieces even after more than 25 years. Only about the trio sonatas and maybe the Passacaglia and the E flat major P&F I could say that I love them, I don't know most of the rest very well (many pieces not at all).

Why is this a "problem"? Because I love most of the other music by Bach I know, especially the "standard" keyboard stuff and I think I *should* like the organ music better than I do in fact. I am really struggling with most of the chorale based pieces (boring) and while I like some of the big P&F etc. I tend to find the organ sound often to overwhelming and not clear enough.

It seems that in this thread the minimal unit is a complete recording.. but I do not really feel like getting one. (Among the cheap and available ones, only Walcha mono seems consensus...). I'd rather like some pointers to single (or double discs) that might change my perception that the chorale-based pieces are boring and the others "walls of sound". Or maybe how I should listen to the stuff I already have.
O
I list below what I already have on my shelves
(I also just ordered a "best-of" twofer of the stereo Walcha, one disc with Krapp (the CÜ "small chorales") and one double with Corti (on one German language forum there is a rabid fan of his Bach), and it was cheap...)

Koopman's cheapo 6 disc collection (originally Novalis)

Power Biggs (at Thomaskirche?) (Berlin Classics): 541, 547,565, 582

Tachezi (Teldec): BWV 542, 552, 564, 565, 582

F. Friedrich, Trost Organ Altenburg (Capriccio) BWV 545, 552, 537, 437, 680, 751, 711, 739, 769

H. Kästner, Schuke Organ Thomaskirche (Capriccio) BWV 572, 645, 542, 565, 639, 547

Spanyi (and maybe some others) on a Cheapo disc: 547, 565, "Dorian" and a few more

from the Bach on Silbermann (Berlin Classics) Vols 3, 4, and 9,
containing about 4 trio sonatas, Vom Himmel hoch, Passacaglia, 565, 542, 590, 532, 549, 539, 547, chorales etc.)

Weinberger/cpo: Vols 12 (525, 528, 566, Neumeister Chorales), 13 (P&F 552 and "great" (pedal) chorales from CÜ III) 15 (Concertos, Schübler chorals, Ricercar from BWV 1079), 16 (572, 527, 530, 769a etc.) I got those cheaply when jpc was apparently getting rid of the single discs before they put them all in the complete box.

Trio Sonatas: John Butt (hm), K. Johanssen (Hänssler), Power Biggs (pedal harpsichord, that's still my favorite from the time when I cared even less for the sound of the organ)

Clavierübung III Brosse (Pierre Verany)

incomplete AoF: Gould (Sony) this is cool but hardly sounds like a "real organ"

On one of your Berlin Classics CDs there's a trio sonata played by Erich Piasetzki. And on  your Koopman CDs there's a BWV 656 and a BWV 688, and BWV 669-671 And on the Weinberger there's the Ricercar from Opfer and possibly 669-671 too, I'm not sure.  I'd start there.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on November 01, 2015, 11:10:10 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 30, 2015, 08:00:14 AM
But this joke does not work in German at all?! "Orgel" or "Organist" has no connotation to reproductive organs in German. (And I might be dense, but I cannot think of any German paraphrase that would make the joke work...)

(Sorry to butt in in such a frivolous fashion. But I have now read this joke for the fourth time or so working my way through this thread, and the (involuntary) joke only works in English. So whoever told it, it is at least slightly confusing to introduce him as a "German professor")


It was a professor of German, not a German professor, I suppose. I suppose on an international forum that context isn't necessarily clear.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 02, 2015, 02:56:31 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 01, 2015, 09:24:38 PM
On one of your Berlin Classics CDs there's a trio sonata played by Erich Piasetzki. And on  your Koopman CDs there's a BWV 656 and a BWV 688, and BWV 669-671 And on the Weinberger there's the Ricercar from Opfer and possibly 669-671 too, I'm not sure.  I'd start there.

Good advices IMO.
And if Jo, after checking these out, still isn't converted to Bach's organ, well, it's just something that can happen. One's own taste is one's best gauge. As he himself indicated, there's still aplenty to enjoy in the BWV.

By the way, I love Bach's organ music (no kidding. ;)).
To me, it's a great mix of a thrilling comfort and a comforting thrill.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 02, 2015, 03:17:44 AM
Oh, and Jo, thanks for mentioning Jean-Patrice Brosse's CU III!
I didn't know that one and just ordered it (library).

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on November 02, 2015, 04:11:04 AM
Thanks.
As I said, the trio sonatas are exceptions for me. I basically got to know them in that Power Biggs pedal harpsichord recording, immediately loved them and while this is still my favorite, I also like them on the organ.

That I have the J.-P. Brosse recording must be more of an accident. It probably was cheap and/or someone on a German forum recommended it. Be warned: some of the manualiter chorales and/or the duets are played on harpsichord.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 04, 2015, 01:01:07 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 02, 2015, 04:11:04 AM
That I have the J.-P. Brosse recording must be more of an accident. It probably was cheap and/or someone on a German forum recommended it. Be warned: some of the manualiter chorales and/or the duets are played on harpsichord.

All the manualiter chorales and the duets are played on harpsichord. This is what makes the recording interesting to me, as I am not a great fan of his organ playing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on November 04, 2015, 01:41:29 PM
Yes, the whole 2nd disc is on harpsichord, I had not been sure. I really don't remember, it could be that this was also a point for me because I am not so fond of the organ sound. The first disc on organ is somewhat messy, not very transparent sound. I am not really familiar enough with Clavierübung III (except P&F 552) but I prefer Weinberger's comparably "dry" sound. Tomorrow I'll hopefully receive Krapp's disc with the "smaller pieces" of CÜ III.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: xochitl on November 15, 2015, 07:43:49 AM
anyone know of recordings of historical organs still in their original non-ET state (or at least some alternate later tuning)? apparently a lot of them have been re-tuned in the last centuries? it's been a real slog trying to find info
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 15, 2015, 09:27:40 PM
Quote from: xochitl on November 15, 2015, 07:43:49 AM
anyone know of recordings of historical organs still in their original non-ET state (or at least some alternate later tuning)? apparently a lot of them have been re-tuned in the last centuries? it's been a real slog trying to find info

I'm assuming you're wanting recordings which feature significant amounts of music by JSB.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/615CR6FPmVL._SY355_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VuXqNKi%2BL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

I don't think it's quite the right image for the second one. I mean Hans-Ola Ericsson playing early organ pieces by JSB, vol. 1 of his Bach survey. It's mostly on an early organ at Övertorneå which isn't meantone tuned, but it has  4 tracks the neo baroque organ in Norrfjärden church, Sweden. The Norrfjärden organ a reconstruction of the Övertorneå organ but IS meantone tuned. I think I've got that right  ;)

It's quite an interesting thing to compare the new and old organs with their different turnings. I wish he had recorded more on the modern organ.


The first one, with music on the Treutmann organ at Grauhof, is also very enjoyable.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 16, 2015, 04:15:36 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 15, 2015, 09:27:40 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VuXqNKi%2BL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

I don't think it's quite the right image for the second one. I mean Hans-Ola Ericsson playing early organ pieces by JSB, vol. 1 of his Bach survey. It's mostly on an early organ at Övertorneå which isn't meantone tuned, but it has  4 tracks the neo baroque organ in Norrfjärden church, Sweden. The Norrfjärden organ a reconstruction of the Övertorneå organ but IS meantone tuned. I think I've got that right  ;)

Is this a physical CD, or is it only "available" on Spotify?

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 16, 2015, 07:48:51 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 16, 2015, 04:15:36 AM
Is this a physical CD, or is it only "available" on Spotify?

I don't think there's a physical CD, but you can download losslessly here

https://shop.klicktrack.com/415870
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 17, 2015, 04:09:35 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 16, 2015, 07:48:51 AM
I don't think there's a physical CD, but you can download losslessly here

https://shop.klicktrack.com/415870

Thanks. It seems as if it is going to be released on CD, so I think I shall wait for that.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 03:06:27 AM
Just a quick question: Is the list of "HIP" (both playing and organs) recordings on the very beginning of this thread to be taken as recommendations or merely as information?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 26, 2015, 03:18:26 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 03:06:27 AM
Just a quick question: Is the list of "HIP" (both playing and organs) recordings on the very beginning of this thread to be taken as recommendations or merely as information?

The list is first and foremost to be taken as a recommendation among the (by then) existing HIP-oriented recordings. It consists of recordings, which I value highly - and still do. To day a similar list would be much longer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 03:30:58 AM
thanks, that is a stronger endorsement than I had read from that first posting. It sounded a little like: that's what there is on HIP recordings that are not part of complete cycles without particularly recommending ALL of them.

BTW what is your and others opinion on the recordings by Alessio Corti? There is a person in a German forum who likes them a lot (but he is not particularly knowledgeable, certainly has not heard as many different versions of the music as many contributors here).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on November 26, 2015, 04:39:10 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 03:30:58 AM
BTW what is your and others opinion on the recordings by Alessio Corti? There is a person in a German forum who likes them a lot (but he is not particularly knowledgeable, certainly has not heard as many different versions of the music as many contributors here).

I'm not more qualified than the person you mention; but I totally agree: Corti is excellent and his traversal was very well recorded.

Although he doesn't play historic instruments here, the Tamburini organs aren't a detriment to the enjoyment.

Unfortunately, copies of this set are quite expensive and thin on the ground. The perfect mix to become an obsession.  :P ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 26, 2015, 08:09:56 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 26, 2015, 03:18:26 AM
The list is first and foremost to be taken as a recommendation among the (by then) existing HIP-oriented recordings. It consists of recordings, which I value highly - and still do. To day a similar list would be much longer.

I got some amazing recordings from that list! 

Could we implore you to do an update?  :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 08:48:40 AM
Quote from: Gordo on November 26, 2015, 04:39:10 AM
I'm not more qualified than the person you mention; but I totally agree: Corti is excellent and his traversal was very well recorded.

Although he doesn't play historic instruments here, the Tamburini organs aren't a detriment to the enjoyment.

Unfortunately, copies of this set are quite expensive and thin on the ground. The perfect mix to become an obsession.  :P ;D

Thanks for your comments!
As I am not hunting for completeness, I actually got two 2-disc volumes embarassingly cheap, one with the Orgelbüchlein and fillers, another with the Leipzig chorale settings and a few T&Fugues. But I haven't really listened to them yet, they just arrived a few days ago.

While I have almost only praise for the contributions and wealth of information in this thread, it is a little unfortunate that for some/many contributors the standard unit seems to be a complete recording of the organ works... :D
I'd really find a "breakdown" helpful, both into the most important works, e.g. Clavierübung III, Orgelbüchlein, Trio sonatas, "great" Toccatas and Fugues etc. and also with comments about separately available recordings.
That's why I found that list at the very beginning helpful although there are some gaps, I think.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 26, 2015, 09:33:13 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 03:30:58 AM
BTW what is your and others opinion on the recordings by Alessio Corti? There is a person in a German forum who likes them a lot (but he is not particularly knowledgeable, certainly has not heard as many different versions of the music as many contributors here).

From a musical point of view I find Corti outstanding. One may consider him an ideal syntesis of his teacher Lionel Rogg´s fluent naturalness and the learned expressivity of someone like Bernard Foccroulle. The weak point in Corti´s set is the two (modern)Tamburini organs he uses. Their sound do not make me associate to the sound-world of Bach organs. On the other hand I can not say, that they are  completely unsuited for the job, since they have some nice characteristics, among these a fine tonal balance. Much like playing his harpsichord works on a revival harpsichord (e.g. Neupert Bach-model).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 26, 2015, 09:34:53 AM
Quote from: Que on November 26, 2015, 08:09:56 AM

Could we implore you to do an update?  :)


I shall se, what I can do. Give me the time I need.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 26, 2015, 09:36:18 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 08:48:40 AM
Thanks for your comments!
While I have almost only praise for the contributions and wealth of information in this thread, it is a little unfortunate that for some/many contributors the standard unit seems to be a complete recording of the organ works... :D
I'd really find a "breakdown" helpful, both into the most important works, e.g. Clavierübung III, Orgelbüchlein, Trio sonatas, "great" Toccatas and Fugues etc. and also with comments about separately available recordings.

I will take this into consideration.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 26, 2015, 09:40:04 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 26, 2015, 09:34:53 AM
I shall se, what I can do. Give me the time I need.

Yes please, no need to hurry!

I just ask this favour because the previous time it was such a big help . :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 10:07:19 AM
From the little I have listened to (and I really have no clue about organs) Corti's organs sound somewhat neutral (or even bland) to me.
Both the East German Silbermann organs, even in the doubtful state of the 1960s/70s on that Bach auf Silbermannorgeln set (I have 5 disc of that one), and the supposedly authentic ones (Krapp's Clavierübung III or some in Weinberger's set) sound far more colorful, sometimes almost strange in their tone colors.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 26, 2015, 10:19:11 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 10:07:19 AM
From the little I have listened to (and I really have no clue about organs) Corti's organs sound somewhat neutral (or even bland) to me.
Both the East German Silbermann organs, even in the doubtful state of the 1960s/70s on that Bach auf Silbermannorgeln set (I have 5 disc of that one), and the supposedly authentic ones (Krapp's Clavierübung III or some in Weinberger's set) sound far more colorful, sometimes almost strange in their tone colors.

You may well call the sound neutral, or with a term from Gordo "generic". But I prefer a neutral sound to a sound, which gives wrong associations as f.i. the sound of French romantic organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 26, 2015, 11:34:20 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 10:07:19 AM
From the little I have listened to (and I really have no clue about organs) Corti's organs sound somewhat neutral (or even bland) to me.
Both the East German Silbermann organs, even in the doubtful state of the 1960s/70s on that Bach auf Silbermannorgeln set (I have 5 disc of that one), and the supposedly authentic ones (Krapp's Clavierübung III or some in Weinberger's set) sound far more colorful, sometimes almost strange in their tone colors.

I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of the organ, it may be part of Corti's interpretations.

Maybe try Corti's Leipzig chorales, which I enjoyed a lot. But maybe not, maybe try one on a well restored colourful old baroque machine, by someone who relishes orchestra style registrations, imaginative and unexpected combinations of sounds.  There's no shortage of choice.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 26, 2015, 11:52:24 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 10:07:19 AM
From the little I have listened to (and I really have no clue about organs) Corti's organs sound somewhat neutral (or even bland) to me.
Both the East German Silbermann organs, even in the doubtful state of the 1960s/70s on that Bach auf Silbermannorgeln set (I have 5 disc of that one), and the supposedly authentic ones (Krapp's Clavierübung III or some in Weinberger's set) sound far more colorful, sometimes almost strange in their tone colors.

I think you need this one from the list:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XwslK0AqL.jpg)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000028BTI/

Awesome! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 12:10:18 PM
I just got Krapp's Clavierübung III (on two separate discs with some fillers) which was also on "The List" and I have an older recording of a mixed program by Friedrich (Capriccio) on the Trost organ in Altenburg, so thanks for the pointer but I will save this for somewhat later (I think I will not buy anything else before January, at least I'll try to...)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 27, 2015, 12:53:29 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 12:10:18 PM
I just got Krapp's Clavierübung III (on two separate discs with some fillers) which was also on "The List" and I have an older recording of a mixed program by Friedrich (Capriccio) on the Trost organ in Altenburg, so thanks for the pointer but I will save this for somewhat later (I think I will not buy anything else before January, at least I'll try to...)

Krapp did not quite fly with me, so I opted for Friedrich. :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on November 27, 2015, 01:02:20 AM
If I had seen earlier the Friedrich would have been actually cheaper used than the two separate Krapp discs I might have got his instead but for now I have to take a break from buying to listen... (and unfortunately I had several breakdowns of Hifi- and computer things recently so I cannot listen quite as much as I'd like to and not in the best quality).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on December 04, 2015, 11:40:10 PM
o.k., I now got Friedrich's Clavierübung III as well. I have not yet compared it to others (and except for the Eflat major P&F I do not yet know the music well enough to really compare anyway) but it certainly has very informative notes by Friedrich himself!

Also a very beautiful sounding recording by Rainer Oster, not the one mentioned in the list above with the Schnitger organ (that one has become very expensive) but with a different organ (Mühleisen 1991, see below, that's probably why it's not on the list), also on Arte Nova

[asin]B000005I5E[/asin]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholom%C3%A4us_%28Hasborn-Dautweiler%29

Does anyone have a list with the pieces on Bleicher's ebs discs? I do not want to get to many duplications... futile... but one can at least try.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 05, 2015, 12:16:01 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 04, 2015, 11:40:10 PM
o.k., I now got Friedrich's Clavierübung III as well.

I'll be curious what you make of it. :)

QuoteDoes anyone have a list with the pieces on Bleicher's ebs discs? I do not want to get to many duplications... futile... but one can at least try.

I could have typed it from the tracklist, but this is easier:

http://www.bayermusicgroup.de/index.php?page=artikel&currentLimit=&perPage=&listorder=5&search_cmd=quick&return_cmd=search&search=Stefan%2BJohannes%2BBleicher&artnr=ebs6012&lang=

http://www.bayermusicgroup.de/index.php?page=artikel&currentLimit=&perPage=&listorder=5&search_cmd=quick&return_cmd=search&search=Stefan%2BJohannes%2BBleicher&artnr=ebs6028&lang=
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on December 05, 2015, 12:57:58 AM
Thanks! I probably could have found this myself, but as amazon did not have any info, I had not expected that it was easily findable.
Bleicher's Vol II. are very frequently recorded pieces; unless many think that this is really very special, because of either organ or playing I'll probably skip/postpone that one.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 05, 2015, 05:57:47 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 04, 2015, 11:40:10 PM
o.k., I now got Friedrich's Clavierübung III as well. I have not yet compared it to others (and except for the Eflat major P&F I do not yet know the music well enough to really compare anyway) but it certainly has very informative notes by Friedrich himself!

Also a very beautiful sounding recording by Rainer Oster, not the one mentioned in the list above with the Schnitger organ (that one has become very expensive) but with a different organ (Mühleisen 1991, see below, that's probably why it's not on the list), also on Arte Nova

[asin]B000005I5E[/asin]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholom%C3%A4us_%28Hasborn-Dautweiler%29

Does anyone have a list with the pieces on Bleicher's ebs discs? I do not want to get to many duplications... futile... but one can at least try.

The one on the Schnitger is good, worth snapping up if it ever becomes affordable. If you want I'll put it on symphonyshare.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 11, 2016, 11:32:10 AM


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYdHkgMWEAEfjba.jpg:large)
J.S.Bach
Complete Organ Works
A.Isoir

La dolce Volta (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00N1ZHWJ8/goodmusicguide-20)

Perhaps my favorite French set of Bach organ works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 13, 2016, 05:13:16 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 11, 2016, 11:32:10 AM

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYdHkgMWEAEfjba.jpg:large)
J.S.Bach
Complete Organ Works
A.Isoir

La dolce Volta (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00N1ZHWJ8/goodmusicguide-20)

Perhaps my favorite French set of Bach organ works.

Surprising, when Alain, Vernet and Amade (but not Chapuis) are so much better than Isoir.
But reviewers paths are often surprising.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 13, 2016, 07:30:19 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 13, 2016, 05:13:16 AM
Surprising, when Alain, Vernet and Amade (but not Chapuis) are so much better than Isoir.
But reviewers paths are often surprising.

Has Jens reviewed it? Whenever I press the image I just get to a sales site.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on January 13, 2016, 08:01:19 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 13, 2016, 07:30:19 AM
Has Jens reviewed it? Whenever I press the image I just get to a sales site.

No, I do not think he has written much more about it, than we can read above.
But his view is unequivocal.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 13, 2016, 12:50:34 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 13, 2016, 05:13:16 AM
Surprising, when Alain, Vernet and Amade (but not Chapuis) are so much better than Isoir.
But reviewers paths are often surprising.
Quote from: Mandryka on January 13, 2016, 07:30:19 AM
Has Jens reviewed it? Whenever I press the image I just get to a sales site.

I have not, but I do really like it. Art of the Fugue (well, technically not part of the set... and the concertos, which I also adore, are not, either) is nay unbeatable.

I like Vernet, but not all of it; Alain II & III very much; Amade I've never heard a note of; I have no problem rating this higher than Foccroulle; ditto Lagace... and I hope we're not even talking about  Guillou.


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 13, 2016, 09:20:46 PM
For me there was too much important stuff in Isoir which I didn't enjoy as much as others: CU3 for example, and the Leipzig Chorales. To me he seemed a bit glib, but I could easily have missed stuff and if you really think that he's got interesting ideas about those preludes I'll go back to the recordings. As it happens both of those seemed to come off really well in Foccroulle's set. Isoir's AoF is fun,  I prefer the seriousness of Alain, but I can see that it's a hoot. I haven't heard the concertos.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on April 24, 2016, 06:08:30 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 13, 2016, 09:20:46 PM
For me there was too much important stuff in Isoir which I didn't enjoy as much as others: CU3 for example, and the Leipzig Chorales. To me he seemed a bit glib, but I could easily have missed stuff and if you really think that he's got interesting ideas about those preludes I'll go back to the recordings. As it happens both of those seemed to come off really well in Foccroulle's set. Isoir's AoF is fun,  I prefer the seriousness of Alain, but I can see that it's a hoot. I haven't heard the concertos.

Hmm... may have jumped the gun on Isoire... so far, it's still the AoF and Concertos that I like best... CU3 would be a touch-stone. But my tastes on that are wildly diverse (incl. Bowyer!), so my liking may not mean much to your preferences. If I come up with something remotely insightful regarding Isoir's set (or how it compares to others, to my ears), I will make mention of it here.


Meanwhile update on ionarts:

A Survey of Bach Organ Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)


Updated: 04/24/2016: André Isoir and and the Hänssler cycle have been put into chronological order. The details of the organs used (on mouse-over, depending on your browser) are now included for Koopman, Alain III, Weinberger, Foccroulle and (partly) Phillips....

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-thtV3npwdYY/UdP62-OpysI/AAAAAAAAGk4/s4r7zdpJuxs/s600/BACH_Portrait_original_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on May 15, 2016, 05:43:12 PM
Does anyone have a copy of this, or any of the full set from which it is drawn?
[asin]B018LOVWEO[/asin]
I am playing CD 2 and a few tracks have what sounds like static or crunchy tape.
I am wondering if there flaw is in the recording or my individual CD. The first CD (it is a doublet) was fine.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on May 15, 2016, 11:39:31 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 15, 2016, 05:43:12 PM
I am playing CD 2 and a few tracks have what sounds like static or crunchy tape.
I am wondering if there flaw is in the recording or my individual CD. The first CD (it is a doublet) was fine.

Does sound like a misprint... :(

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on May 16, 2016, 01:32:47 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 15, 2016, 05:43:12 PM
Does anyone have a copy of this, or any of the full set from which it is drawn?
[asin]B018LOVWEO[/asin]
I am playing CD 2 and a few tracks have what sounds like static or crunchy tape.
I am wondering if there flaw is in the recording or my individual CD. The first CD (it is a doublet) was fine.

You should contact Brilliant about it. They will listen to the copies they have, and when there is a problem, you might get replacements. But often they refund the money, for it is far too expensive to print the set anew. Sad but true! It happened once or twice to me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 16, 2016, 09:18:18 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 24, 2016, 06:08:30 AM
Hmm... may have jumped the gun on Isoire... so far, it's still the AoF and Concertos that I like best... CU3 would be a touch-stone. But my tastes on that are wildly diverse (incl. Bowyer!), so my liking may not mean much to your preferences. If I come up with something remotely insightful regarding Isoir's set (or how it compares to others, to my ears), I will make mention of it here.


Meanwhile update on ionarts:

A Survey of Bach Organ Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)


Updated: 04/24/2016: André Isoir and and the Hänssler cycle have been put into chronological order. The details of the organs used (on mouse-over, depending on your browser) are now included for Koopman, Alain III, Weinberger, Foccroulle and (partly) Phillips....

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-thtV3npwdYY/UdP62-OpysI/AAAAAAAAGk4/s4r7zdpJuxs/s600/BACH_Portrait_original_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)

I saw a review of yours about Todd Fickley's CDs. I wonder if the organophiles will agree with you about the sound. It sounds a bit dodgy to me, but I'm not sure. I'll check sometime a recording of the real organ.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on May 16, 2016, 01:11:46 PM
Quote from: Harry's corner on May 16, 2016, 01:32:47 AM
You should contact Brilliant about it. They will listen to the copies they have, and when there is a problem, you might get replacements. But often they refund the money, for it is far too expensive to print the set anew. Sad but true! It happened once or twice to me.

Thank you, I will do so once I get back home next week.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 16, 2016, 11:38:47 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 16, 2016, 09:18:18 AM
I saw a review of yours about Todd Fickley's CDs. I wonder if the organophiles will agree with you about the sound. It sounds a bit dodgy to me, but I'm not sure. I'll check sometime a recording of the real organ.

I think that bit about sound came close to being damnation by faint praise... but the *sound* certainly did not dodgy to me. Contained, perhaps... and again, I like Koito or whatever her name is, much better. But not muffled or anything of that sort.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 17, 2016, 12:09:36 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 16, 2016, 11:38:47 PM
. Contained,

Yes, that's the word. Agreed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 17, 2016, 08:38:06 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 16, 2016, 09:18:18 AM
I saw a review of yours about Todd Fickley's CDs. I wonder if the organophiles will agree with you about the sound. It sounds a bit dodgy to me, but I'm not sure. I'll check sometime a recording of the real organ.

Before I read, how the Fickley CDs are produced, I acquired and listened to vol.1 (the one with the Zwolle organ). My spontaneous impression was, that this was the worst recording of this organ, I have heard. I found it particularly difficult to imagine where the microphones were located. Later I read about "Hauptwerk" and understood why.

The series might theoretically have been interesting, if the playing was exceptional, but Fickley just offers a rough and unrefined playthrough of the music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: hpowders on September 17, 2016, 10:32:36 AM
Who needs any new Bach organ performances when we have major statements by Walcha, Alain, Koopman and Hurford?

I've listened to both Fickley CDs-simply okay, with a bit too much reverberation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 17, 2016, 10:50:30 AM
Quote from: hpowders on September 17, 2016, 10:32:36 AM
Who needs any new Bach organ performances when we have major statements by Walcha, Alain, Koopman and Hurford?
[...]

I do.
Right now I'm collecting Cor Ardesch.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: hpowders on September 17, 2016, 10:54:10 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 17, 2016, 10:50:30 AM
I do.
Right now I'm collecting Cor Ardesch.

I guess for you, collecting new performances of Bach on organ is the Cor-rect one.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 17, 2016, 11:00:40 AM
Quote from: hpowders on September 17, 2016, 10:54:10 AM
I guess for you, collecting new performances of Bach on organ is the Cor-rect one.

:)

Well, each and every organ(ist) delivers different insights.
I just love the works, and I love the instrument with all its possibilities, especially the sound of the older ones or the ones based on the older ones.... and after you've heard one or two of them in a live concert, well, nuff said.
But yes, whether Cor-rect or not, I do admit it's a personal aberration (and a rather expensive one).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: hpowders on September 17, 2016, 11:05:52 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 17, 2016, 11:00:40 AM
:)

Well, each and every organ(ist) delivers different insights.
I just love the works, and I love the instrument with all its possibilities, especially the sound of the older ones or the ones based on the older ones.... and after you've heard one or two of them in a live concert, well, nuff said.
But yes, whether Cor-rect or not, I do admit it's a personal aberration (and a rather expensive one).

Yes. The newer CDs will cost a lot. I bought the second Alain set (15 CDs) for less than $2 a CD.

Still, being addicted to newer CDs is a lot cheaper than buying a new car and trading it in after a year.  ;D

Enjoy the performances!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 17, 2016, 11:20:19 AM
Quote from: hpowders on September 17, 2016, 11:05:52 AM
Yes. The newer CDs will cost a lot. I bought the second Alain set (15 CDs) for less than $2 a CD.

Still, being addicted to newer CDs is a lot cheaper than buying a new car and trading it in after a year.  ;D

Enjoy the performances!

Thanks for the wishes.

By the way, I don't have a car and I don't even have a driving license.
Just to make sure that I can buy my Ardesch.

I will listen to his Bach with... Passion.

:)

https://www.youtube.com/v/BQTxcphGvCs

https://www.youtube.com/v/s9tAy7KWOZg
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on September 17, 2016, 12:49:39 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 17, 2016, 10:50:30 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 24, 2016, 06:08:30 AM

A Survey of Bach Organ Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)


Updated: 04/24/2016: André Isoir and and the Hänssler cycle have been put into chronological order. The details of the organs used (on mouse-over, depending on your browser) are now included for Koopman, Alain III, Weinberger, Foccroulle and (partly) Phillips....

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-thtV3npwdYY/UdP62-OpysI/AAAAAAAAGk4/s4r7zdpJuxs/s600/BACH_Portrait_original_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)

Quote from: hpowders on September 17, 2016, 10:32:36 AM
Who needs any new Bach organ performances when we have major statements by Walcha, Alain, Koopman and Hurford?
I do.
Right now I'm collecting Cor Ardesch.

Agreed on Alain and Koopman as excellent... but Walcha, the human metronome, I am growing increasingly disenchanted with. He makes Stockmeier sound like a wild man.

But most of all agreed on further exploring these as living works; doubly living with both interpretations and instruments contributing so much to the character. Will check me out some Cor Ardesch!  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: hpowders on September 17, 2016, 01:27:24 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 17, 2016, 12:49:39 PM
I do.
Right now I'm collecting Cor Ardesch.


Agreed on Alain and Koopman as excellent... but Walcha, the human metronome, I am growing increasingly disenchanted with. He makes Stockmeier sound like a wild man.

But most of all agreed on further exploring these as living works; doubly living with both interpretations and instruments contributing so much to the character. Will check me out some Cor Ardesch!  ;)

Well, in my opinion NOBODY does the complex voicings of the fugues better than Walcha, at least from my Cor-ner of the world.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 17, 2016, 02:08:32 PM
Quote from: hpowders on September 17, 2016, 01:27:24 PM
Well, in my opinion NOBODY does the complex voicings of the fugues better than Walcha, at least from my Cor-ner of the world.

Yes, you are right, but there are other questionable things in Walcha's interpretations.
As Harald Vogel once said: Walcha knows more about Bach than most of us, but he has got the details wrong.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on September 17, 2016, 02:43:33 PM
I listened to the Walcha recordings (stereo, on Archiv) intently for years before I started branching out into other complete/boxed sets; My second complete set is the Alain (second version, I think), which I generally prefer now, in no small part because of the organs and the sound quality. I have many single discs by other performers--Anton Heiller, Karl Richter (who everyone here seems to detest  ???), Michael Murray, Peter Hurford, et al.

One of my major complaints about the Walcha set is the very dry sound, lack of sense of venue, and the organs themselves, which are not the most interesting ones around IMO.

In any case, these complete sets really take years to fully listen to and appreciate. Therefore, such a purchase is not something to be taken lightly. In any case, I am eager to get the Hurford set ($$$$$$$$) next, but I still need complete sets of Buxtehude (Harald Vogel, I'm getting) and Reger (probably the Naxos set) first.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 17, 2016, 02:47:16 PM
Quote from: hpowders on September 17, 2016, 10:32:36 AM
Who needs any new Bach organ performances when we have major statements by Walcha, Alain, Koopman and Hurford?

One can never have too many recordings of Bach's organ works. We have major statements from at least 25 different organists.

Quote from: hpowders
I've listened to both Fickley CDs-simply okay, with a bit too much reverberation.

I think the Zwolle organ sounds artificial on Fickley's recording, and I had this thought before I knew, how it was produced. BTW I have never heard the Zwolle organ live, but there are many excellent recordings of this organ for comparison. But the worst thing is that Fickley's interpretations are uninteresting.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: hpowders on September 17, 2016, 04:37:27 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 17, 2016, 02:47:16 PM
One can never have too many recordings of Bach's organ works. We have major statements from at least 25 different organists.

I think the Zwolle organ sounds artificial on Fickley's recording, and I had this thought before I knew, how it was produced. BTW I have never heard the Zwolle organ live, but there are many excellent recordings of this organ for comparison. But the worst thing is that Fickley's interpretations are uninteresting.

One thing good I will say for Fickley-he at least adds a few interesting embellishments.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 17, 2016, 04:38:11 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 17, 2016, 12:49:39 PM
[....]
Will check me out some Cor Ardesch!  ;)

Not easy to get outside NL, I'm afraid.
You could try this shop though:

http://webwinkel.poortmusic.nl/klassiek_cd/p-1/?Componist=bach&_globalsearch=ardesch
e-mail: poort@poortmusic.nl

I really don't know if they deliver abroad, and, if they do, shipping costs will raise the expense. :(

Ardesch was a pupil of Piet Kee, who recorded for Chandos in the past.
His style of playing could be described as somewhere in between his teacher's and Bram Beekman's approaches.
In short: confident and well-balanced.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 17, 2016, 04:52:20 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 17, 2016, 04:38:11 PM
Not easy to get outside NL, I'm afraid.

Hang on.
In another YouTube clip I found, Ardesch himself spoke of the possibilities of putting some stuff on Spotify.
He didn't say if and when, though...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on September 18, 2016, 01:21:28 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsjexYRWgAEFjnQ.jpg)
#morninglistening to #GeorgeRitchie playing #Bach on the Fritts-Richards op.4 organ at St.... http://ift.tt/2cEMTCy  (http://amzn.to/2d3xduO)

to XB-70 Valkyrie:
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on September 17, 2016, 02:43:33 PM
...In any case, these complete sets really take years to fully listen to and appreciate. Therefore, such a purchase is not something to be taken lightly. In any case, I am eager to get the Hurford set ($$$$$$$$) next, but I still need complete sets of Buxtehude (Harald Vogel, I'm getting) and Reger (probably the Naxos set) first.

I've only heard volume 1 of his Reger, so far, but Buttmann [sic] on Oehms (http://amzn.to/2cH3UKx) so seriously blows everything else I have out of the water (Haas, most of the Naxos + individual discs here and there), that I would at least suggest sampling some of that before going through with a purchase.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on September 18, 2016, 05:18:18 PM
Thanks, will look into it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on September 19, 2016, 12:18:40 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 17, 2016, 04:52:20 PM
Hang on.
In another YouTube clip I found, Ardesch himself spoke of the possibilities of putting some stuff on Spotify.
He didn't say if and when, though...

Found it, thanks. Interesting that he self-distributes and that there is no label that would take that with a hand-kiss. But perhaps it's financially more feasible that way. Am looking forward to hearing it and, if it merits it, draw a bit more attention from outside the NL to it.

What are your impressions, so far? Any favorites among the discs you (presumably) have?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 19, 2016, 02:45:27 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 19, 2016, 12:18:40 AM
[...] Am looking forward to hearing it and, if it merits it, draw a bit more attention from outside the NL to it.

What are your impressions, so far? Any favorites among the discs you (presumably) have?

Not an easy question, because I was 'behind' with collecting the series, and bought nos 10 to 17 last summer in a shop in Leeuwarden (which was the shop in my first link).
I haven't found enough time to listen to these volumes in a proper way.

From volume 1 to 8, I recall being very happy with his Orgelbüchlein performances (Advent, Christmas, Lent).
IMO, Ardesch has got a fine taste for picking the 'right' registration.

I haven't purchased the final disc (no 18) yet, but I think it might be interesting to begin with Volume 1 AND 18, because he recorded BWV 547 both in 2008 (when the organ was still brand new) and in 2016, so you can check out for yourself if or how much both organist and organ have 'matured'.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 19, 2016, 02:55:03 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 19, 2016, 12:18:40 AM
[...] Interesting that he self-distributes and that there is no label that would take that with a hand-kiss. But perhaps it's financially more feasible that way.

Many Dutch organ discs are distributed like that, by the artists themselves or by a small, sometimes temporary, label.
And when the discs are out of print, well, that's it, then.

Most organists aren't good and/or interested in the economical/promotional side of their job and recordings... according to a cd shop owner I recently talked to. Which is understandable of course, because the organ is the Instrument of God. And God, as we all know, is not interested in money... or is He?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on September 19, 2016, 03:04:32 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 19, 2016, 02:55:03 AM
Many Dutch organ discs are distributed like that, by the artists themselves or by a small, sometimes temporary, label.
And when the discs are out of print, well, that's it, then.

Most organists aren't good and/or interested in the economical/promotional side of their job and recordings... according to a cd shop owner I recently talked to. Which is understandable of course, because the organ is the Instrument of God. And God, as we all know, is not interested in money... or is He?

A CD shop owner, so they still exist here and there? I am utterly jealous of the shop that Que has nearby his home. In Groningen there are no shops of renown that I know off, and what they had to say about classical music or organists (Carillion) was not worth repeating.
I personally have no hot line to God, to ask him about money and the having of it, but be sure as soon as we meet, I will ask him. :)
Anyways presently I have 6 boxes with the complete organ music by Bach in the waiting, and will start listening to them for the first time, while two sets are going at the second time.  And since I have my birthday this week, I fully expect to get some more of Bach organ works. I gave clear instructions, so no fear of getting the wrong interpretations. Ardesch was virtually unknown to me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 19, 2016, 05:14:30 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on September 19, 2016, 03:04:32 AM
A CD shop owner, so they still exist here and there? I am utterly jealous of the shop that Que has nearby his home. In Groningen there are no shops of renown that I know off, and what they had to say about classical music or organists (Carillion) was not worth repeating.
I personally have no hot line to God, to ask him about money and the having of it, but be sure as soon as we meet, I will ask him. :)
Anyways presently I have 6 boxes with the complete organ music by Bach in the waiting, and will start listening to them for the first time, while two sets are going at the second time.  And since I have my birthday this week, I fully expect to get some more of Bach organ works. I gave clear instructions, so no fear of getting the wrong interpretations. Ardesch was virtually unknown to me.

The shop I was referring to isn't in Groningen, but in Ljouwert/Liwadden/Leeuwarden.
They already went online in the 1990s, and, according to the owner, it's still paying off.

And I think that Groningen (compared to many other cities in NL) isn't that bad off. I'm having a good relationship with 't Carillon and I hope they manage to survive. But yes, organ music isn't the Speciality of the House, even though I bought my Bach/Alain 3, Bach/Koopman and Bach/Vernet boxes there.
Sometimes I switch to the bookshop of Van der Velde (near the Der Aa Kerk). One of the employees is an enthousiastic classical music lover and always shows me his latest 'discovery', but, after all the polite blabbering, I still decide for myself what to buy. :P

I.c. events this week: I wish you a happy birthday, Harry! Listening to Bach's organ music might add to the enjoyment! Don't hesitate in letting us know what your thoughts are, here and/or on your blog.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: KevinP on November 12, 2016, 02:52:51 PM
I'm looking for recommendations on a complete Bach organ box set. I've skimmed through this thread, but 113 pages is quite a lot to take in, plus the thread isn't specifically about complete sets.

I know little about pipes organs and grew up not particularly liking the instrument (to put it mildly). So justifications of your choices would be appreciated.

Comments on not-complete-but-sizable collections also welcomed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 12, 2016, 04:11:26 PM
Possibly the best overall (although I certainly haven't heard all!), or at least very, very good. The sound quality is generally quite good, the performances technically excellent with very interesting registrations in many cases. She has a great feeling for the music. The price is very cheap as well!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81uQ3b8svUL._SY355_.jpg)

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Complete-Organ-Marie-Claire-Alain/dp/B004RUF022/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1478999432&sr=8-2&keywords=bach+alain+organ

Keep in mind that "complete" may mean different things to different people. Some sets call themselves complete but lack the Art of Fugue (which in fairness, was not written specifically for organ). Other sets lack the Concerti (After Vivaldi), which are well worth owning, and yet call themselves "complete".
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: KevinP on November 12, 2016, 05:01:30 PM
Thanks!

And yeah, I noticed that with the sheer number of discs a set requires there must be notable variation on what constitutes 'complete.'

Awaiting delivery of the not-nearly-complete Karl Richter 3-disc set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 12, 2016, 05:09:59 PM
I actually like Karl Richter a great deal in this repertoire. The three disc set on DG is one of the weaker of his recordings, mostly because of the organs, which sound a bit electronic to me (they are not). The Richter one you want is on Teldec in which he is playing some beautiful Arp Schnitger instruments. Sorry, couldn't find it on Amazon right now--maybe OP.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on November 13, 2016, 01:11:44 AM
There are also a bunch of pieces of dubious authorship and/or only discovered/edited some time after e.g. Walcha's recordings were made.

This may not be very helpful but as someone who was not too fond of organ music until about a year ago, I would not recommend a big box. Such a box can both be overwhelming by the sheer amount of music and the range of both organ sounds and playing styles is so wide that a box from one organist (although often different instruments) might appear boring simply because you are not too fond of his/her style or the organ sounds.

Some separate discs can be found rather cheaply (although with the current cheap boxes you will never beat them for price). The first message in the thread has a nice list of single/double discs to sample a variety of organists and organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: KevinP on November 13, 2016, 03:25:15 AM
I have a couple single-disc titles (Koopman, Alain) that I've been listening to lately. I'm ready for more.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 13, 2016, 04:15:06 AM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 12, 2016, 05:09:59 PM
I actually like Karl Richter a great deal in this repertoire. The three disc set on DG is one of the weaker of his recordings, mostly because of the organs, which sound a bit electronic to me (they are not). The Richter one you want is on Teldec in which he is playing some beautiful Arp Schnitger instruments. Sorry, couldn't find it on Amazon right now--maybe OP.

You must think of the one (LP from ca 1958, released on CD about 1995) played on the Schnitger organ, Norden, containing the triosonatas BWV 527 and 530, the piece d´orgue BWV 572 and the pastorale BWV 590. It was made long time before the informed restoration of this organ, and at that time it did not sound much Schnitger. Also the recording is mono - or rather: I have never seen a stereo release. I think Richter's playing here was effective, but stiff and colorless.

I much prefer the DGG recordings on the Marcussen organ, Jægersborg to these above. The playing has more life and interest.The Jægersborg organ was one of the first intended neo-baroque organs, but except for its trompette en chamade it sounds rather generic. I can say, that the sound on the CDs is very true to the actual sound of this organ.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 13, 2016, 04:27:41 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 13, 2016, 01:11:44 AM

Some separate discs can be found rather cheaply (although with the current cheap boxes you will never beat them for price). The first message in the thread has a nice list of single/double discs to sample a variety of organists and organs.

Yes, I would stick to this list. The above mentioned Alain set is also a nice choice, played on well restored baroque organs (with one exception) and relatively cheap. The most obvious competitor is the Foccroulle set (Ricercare) and maybe the Weinberger set (CPO). Most available sets however are played on modern or mostly on modern organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 13, 2016, 08:26:28 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 13, 2016, 01:11:44 AM
There are also a bunch of pieces of dubious authorship and/or only discovered/edited some time after e.g. Walcha's recordings were made.
[...]

And the Neumeister chorales (BWV 1090-1120), who were attributed to Bach by Christoph Wolff et al around 1985.
Even some 'complete' organists who began recording their integrals after that, didn't include them, like Simon Preston and the above-mentioned Marie-Claire Alain.

I don't know which integrals are still 'in print' nowadays, but Foccroulle (Ricercar) is a very good choice, HIP-influenced playing on beautiful historic instruments.
Weinberger (CPO) is solid, too, and I personally like the cycle of Ewald Kooiman & pupils (AEOLUS) very much, played on 'French' Silbermann organs in great sound. But that set might be quite expensive.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on November 13, 2016, 04:51:37 PM
My favorite is Vernet, but that us OOP and priced accordingly.

You might do best with the Hanssler set, which used a variety of organists and organs, and organized chronologically, as much these works can be organized that way. It was a subset of their Complete Bach box, but is available independently. Not sure how it's priced at the moment.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 13, 2016, 06:16:40 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 13, 2016, 04:15:06 AM
You must think of the one (LP from ca 1958, released on CD about 1995) played on the Schnitger organ, Norden, containing the triosonatas BWV 527 and 530, the piece d´orgue BWV 572 and the pastorale BWV 590. It was made long time before the informed restoration of this organ, and at that time it did not sound much Schnitger. Also the recording is mono - or rather: I have never seen a stereo release. I think Richter's playing here was effective, but stiff and colorless.

...

Hi, The Teldec set I have does indeed have these works, but the date on one is listed as 1971, and the discs are both labeled "Stereo". Here it is. Well worth owning IMO--especially for the Chorale Partita Sei gegrüßet Jesu gütig, BWV 768.

(http://i.maniadb.com/images/album/176/176565_1_f.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: KevinP on November 13, 2016, 07:32:23 PM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 13, 2016, 06:16:40 PM
Hi, The Teldec set I have does indeed have these works, but the date on one is listed as 1971, and the discs are both labeled "Stereo". Here it is. Well worth owning IMO--especially for the Chorale Partita Sei gegrüßet Jesu gütig, BWV 768.


If you see a place online that sells it, let me know please. Can't be in print, but it's odd that no third-party sellers offer it. I won't pay a super OOP price, but if it were slightly higher than new, I'd consider it. Richter's sacred vocal works has earned him much respect from me, and his organ recordings are spoken about just as highly.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 13, 2016, 09:14:14 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 13, 2016, 04:51:37 PM
My favorite is Vernet, but that us OOP and priced accordingly.

You might do best with the Hanssler set, which used a variety of organists and organs, and organized chronologically, as much these works can be organized that way. It was a subset of their Complete Bach box, but is available independently. Not sure how it's priced at the moment.

Yep, the Hänssler set is a gem, too.
Forgot all about that one.

:-[
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on November 14, 2016, 12:09:55 AM
I was about to recommend the Hänssler which is rather cheap in Germany. Regularly around 40 EUR, but there have been sales offers for around 20 and even lower. I am not through with it but it is very complete and offers a range of players and organs. The documentation is somewhat flimsy, though, in the cheap 20 disc box. The organ buffs who need 3 pages on every organ will be disappointed (there is usually a few lines on the organ/builder, not more).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 14, 2016, 02:15:39 AM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on November 13, 2016, 06:16:40 PM
Hi, The Teldec set I have does indeed have these works, but the date on one is listed as 1971, and the discs are both labeled "Stereo". Here it is. Well worth owning IMO--especially for the Chorale Partita Sei gegrüßet Jesu gütig, BWV 768.

(http://i.maniadb.com/images/album/176/176565_1_f.jpg)

This CDset is a combination of two LPs, the one I wrote about above and another containing BWV 538 and BWV 768, both played on the -  at that time (1950es) new Ott organ, the so called Marien-orgel in the monastery church, Ottobeuren, DE (Karl Riepp just managed to buuild the Heilig Geist-orgel and the Dreifaltigheits-orgel of the three planned organs there, the Marien-orgel had to wait for financial reasons). I purchased the two LPs in the late 1960es , and the recording dates seem to be 1960 for the Norden recording and 1957 for the Ottobeuren recording. I have since parted with them, after having digitized the one with BWV 538 and 768. It may be, that the Norden recording was made in stereo originally.

Reference:

http://www.jsbach.org/richterorganworks.html

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Richter-K.htm
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: KevinP on November 14, 2016, 06:22:28 AM
Picked this up today:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DAUdqRXUL.jpg)

Mostly just want to hear an organ recording in 5.1 though it'll be a while before I can hear the hi-rez layer.

Anyone heard this? (Either layer of course)

This one, as the image link might not be working:
https://www.amazon.com/Goldberg-Variationen-Martin-Schmeding/dp/B002985NQM
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 14, 2016, 08:30:43 AM
Quote from: KevinP on November 14, 2016, 06:22:28 AM
Picked this up today:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DAUdqRXUL.jpg)

Anyone heard this? (Either layer of course)

Don't know it. I have ordered it on ordinary CD.

The most uplifting organ version I have heard of the Goldbergs until now is the version on Brilliant by Elena Barshai.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 16, 2016, 08:42:57 AM
I'd be interested to know what you both make of Schmeding, for me some of his registrations, rhythms, phrasing, voicing and tempos give the music the feeling of comedy, like organ music for when Coco the clown enters the big top and does his slapstick.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: KevinP on November 16, 2016, 07:27:17 PM
I've not spent a lot of time with it yet, but I know what you mean. Still, the association of organ music with the big top comes well after Bach's time, so for all we know, those registrations could have been used and only abandoned/avoided more recently.

But yeah, it's hard to distance ourselves from it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 27, 2016, 10:00:54 AM

Can anyone help me find a way to hear Bert Matter's Bach CDs? By wealth or by stealth.


france-orgue lists Leipzig Chorales and CU 3 but they've disappeared without trace. I like his Sweelinck ricercar on NM.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 27, 2016, 10:54:28 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 27, 2016, 10:00:54 AM
Can anyone help me find a way to hear Bert Matter's Bach CDs? By wealth or by stealth.


france-orgue lists Leipzig Chorales and CU 3 but they've disappeared without trace. I like his Sweelinck ricercar on NM.

Are you sure it was CDs? May have been LPs. After all he was born in 1937.

Edit:

Well, I see here CDs:
http://imul.math.uni.lodz.pl/~frydrych/www.jsbach.org/matterjsbachdrittertheilderclavierubung.html

Maybe Marc can help to tell, what Musica Waldburga is (was).

Maybe it can be ordered here. Like many other small Dutch Labels:

https://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.fra.edi&lnfd=3189&edi=%22Musica%20Walburga%24%22
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 27, 2016, 11:11:40 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 27, 2016, 10:54:28 AM


Maybe it can be ordered here. Like many other small Dutch Labels:

https://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.fra.edi&lnfd=3189&edi=%22Musica%20Walburga%24%22

No I tried that and the email address is no longer functioning.

There's a CD on ebay, but it's got very little music on it and much of it is Madder's own compositions, so I'm resisting the temptation. There's one here which is quite tempting in fact

http://www.boeijengamusic.com/magnificat.html
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 27, 2016, 11:41:38 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 27, 2016, 10:00:54 AM
Can anyone help me find a way to hear Bert Matter's Bach CDs? By wealth or by stealth.
[...]

You could try the Stichting Henrick Baderorgel.
Matter was, before his retirement, organist of the historic Bader-organ in the Walburgiskerk, Zutphen, NL (hence 'Musica Waldburga', I think).
And yes, he is/was a very good organist, too!

Here's their website:
http://www.baderorgel.nl/

Here's their cd shop:
http://www.mijnwebwinkel.nl/winkel/baderorgel/c-3200695/cd-s/

Don't know if they deliver abroad, but one is free to ask:
e-mail: info@baderorgel.nl

Good luck!

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 27, 2016, 12:22:30 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 27, 2016, 11:41:38 AM
Here's their cd shop:
http://www.mijnwebwinkel.nl/winkel/baderorgel/c-3200695/cd-s/

Don't know if they deliver abroad, but one is free to ask:
e-mail: info@baderorgel.nl

Thanks Marc, you always know how to find the sources. :)

I am going to write to them too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 27, 2016, 01:26:46 PM
You're fabulous Marc.

Well, I've ordered the two Bach Cds and they appear to ready to ship to the UK -- I've had a confirmation email and I await an invoice with bated breath.

The invoice number was 26 -- only 25 other people have used their website it seems!

The Dutch are unbelievably good at music. How can such a small nation have so many great musicians and so many great organs? I'm going to try to find a tour of Dutch organs with concerts.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 27, 2016, 07:47:14 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 27, 2016, 01:26:46 PM
[...] How can such a small nation have so many great musicians and so many great organs? [...]

Well, personally I believe that there are plenty of great musicians in other countries, too... about the organs I would say: protestantism and its traditions.
About the fact that, relatively, so many old organs survived: calvinistic frugality. Why pay money for an entire new instrument when the old one is still making some sound? :)
And, thanks to the growing welfare after World War 2, combined with a more 'red-white-blue' historical awareness, the wave of proper restorations in the last 50 to 60 years.

Btw: our neighbours in Germany 'own' a great amount of beautiful organs, too (with great musicians!), and there are many foundations and websites with interesting recordings, too.
In most cases just a small amount of discs, and: OOP is OOP. Which means: no reissues.
Like, in NL, the 7 twofers of Piet Wiersma playing Bach on Groningen organs: beautiful recordings in a small edition, and, after Wiersma's premature death in 2003, since long OOP (with the exception of some second hand stuff of course).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on December 29, 2016, 01:44:29 AM
A question for those who have heard dozens of recordings:
Which 5 (five) complete (for small values of complete, i.e. older boxes without Neumeister chorales etc. do count) and which 5 singles (1-2 disc sets/anthologies, can be part of complete set but have to be available separately and no partial traversals with >3 discs like Koopman/Novalis) recordings of Bach's organ music would have your highest recommendation/be considered essential/...?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 29, 2016, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 29, 2016, 01:44:29 AM
A question for those who have heard dozens of recordings:
Which 5 (five) complete (for small values of complete, i.e. older boxes without Neumeister chorales etc. do count) and which 5 singles (1-2 disc sets/anthologies, can be part of complete set but have to be available separately and no partial traversals with >3 discs like Koopman/Novalis) recordings of Bach's organ music would have your highest recommendation/be considered essential/...?

So difficult to answer, really. Lots of good stuff has gone OOP... but if you manage to grab Albert Schweitzer (some mono recordings probably avalaible), Helmut Walcha (f.i. the stereo integral by Deutsche Grammophon), Karl Richter (a small set, also by DG), Lionel Rogg (his Harmonia Mundi integral has gone OOP, but there are still a few EMI 2cd-sets, a.o. with Die Kunst der Fuge), Marie-Claire Alain (2 integrals, both good, the last one on historical instruments), Wolfgang Stockmeier (integral, now in 2 volumes on Membran), Ton Koopman (a Warner Classics integral and a 6cd-set of former Novalis recordings, reissued by Brilliant Classics, also a few DG/Archiv recordings), and the integrals of Bernard Foccroulle (Ricercar), George Ritchie (Raven Records), Olivier Vernet (Ligia), Gerhard Weinberger (CPO), various performers on Hänssler and Ewald Kooiman & pupils on Aeolus, then you're quite all right.

;)

But there's so much choice... check out for instance the first post of this thread by Premont, and some other recommendations by Don/Bulldog/Sammy and others in this thread. Personally I have quite a lot of discs by Dutch organists (most of them bought/ordered locally), but these are very difficult to purchase if you're not living in NL, and many of them turn OOP rather quickly. Still, if you search the internet and stumble upon names like Piet Kee, Wim van Beek, Bram Beekman et al, then you're assured of very good quality.

I fear this post is not really helpful, but I do hope you'll find at least something worthwhile in it... :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Turner on December 29, 2016, 11:34:57 AM
Am definitely, definitely no expert on Bach´s organ music, but it´s necessary to name more organists, I think; so far, I have settled with

Complete - Walter Kraft (probably extremely cheap)
Complete - Hans Fagius (BIS, now Brilliant Classics)

Recitals:
3x Anton Heiller
2x Carlo Curley
1x Power Biggs
1x M-C. Alain
1x Chorzempa
1x Vollwyder
1x Schweitzer
1x Viderø

The Harpsichord/Piano Concerto BWV1051 has also been recorded as a concerto for organ & orchestra by Max Pommer.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on December 29, 2016, 12:34:56 PM
I think a young Christine Schornsheim (probably in her midtwenties then) plays the organ on the reconstructed d minor organ concerto with Pommer.

I probably listed somewhere above already what I have already:

Complete: Koopman/Teldec, diverse/Hänssler
Koopman/Brilliant
7 discs from the "Silbermann organs" on Berlin Classics
4 with Weinberger/cpo
4 with Corti/Antes
CÜ III: Krapp/Berlin, Friedrich/Motette, Brosse
several 1-2 discs anthologies: Walcha, Power Biggs, Tachezi, Bleicher, Friedrich

I don't really want to buy much more (admittedly I have not heard all of my larger boxes although I listened to all of the singles/twofers) but I am thinking about one more "classic" integrale, like Walcha or Alain and was wondering if there were some extraordinary singles/recitals I should know about.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on December 29, 2016, 12:56:36 PM
There is a two disc anthology from Vernet's set, which will serve in place of the full thing, which is OOP.
Rogg on EMI: there are at least 3 two disc anthologies available which you would probably like.

You have the Hanssler, which is my second favorite among the ones I have, after Vernet

The other full sets I have are, in order of my liking them
Preston/DG
Koopman/Teldec
Alain II

I seem to like Preston more than most people.  I did not like Alain because I felt much of the set was played "to meet the contract", especially the chorales, very mechanically. Don't know what her third cycle is like.

I also have, but not yet listened to anything from, Isoir.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: KevinP on December 29, 2016, 03:34:51 PM
Quote from: KevinP on November 12, 2016, 05:01:30 PM
Awaiting delivery of the not-nearly-complete Karl Richter 3-disc set.

Which arrived, extremely late, as an empty and opened box. No CD. Now awaiting the replacement delivery...

In terms of a complete box set which I had asked about, I ended up getting Marie-Claire Alain's 80s set--largely because of Amazon's Autorip feature. Since I live far away, orders can take two to three weeks (or months if something goes wrong like with the Richter set), so being able to enjoy them right after I place the order sometimes is a deciding factor.

Probably not the only I'll ever get, but it's enough for a while.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on December 29, 2016, 07:06:21 PM
Quote from: Turner on December 29, 2016, 11:34:57 AM
...
3x Anton Heiller
...

Yes, indeed, one of the greatest ever IMO, and so rarely mentioned. Can you link to the recording you are talking about here? I have most or all of the Vanguard LPs. The Philips 2 LP set has probably the ghastliest sound quality I have ever heard--a huge disappointment.

For another treat, try to find Heiller playing Rameau on harpsichord (Vanguard, The Bach Guild). Not sure whether this ever made it to CD. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 29, 2016, 10:34:27 PM
Heiller is great indeed!
Somehow I tend to forget to mention Heiller, I've experienced this before... I wonder why.

Long time ago, Mandryka posted this interesting link:

http://klassichaus.us/Organ-Keyboard.php

You can find some Bach/Heiller stuff there, among other things, to buy or to download.
Both his 'Orgelbüchlein' and his 'Leipziger Choräle' are very good IMHO.
(Should listen to them again!)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on December 29, 2016, 11:20:49 PM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on December 29, 2016, 07:06:21 PM
Yes, indeed, one of the greatest ever IMO, and so rarely mentioned. Can you link to the recording you are talking about here? I have most or all of the Vanguard LPs. The Philips 2 LP set has probably the ghastliest sound quality I have ever heard--a huge disappointment.

For another treat, try to find Heiller playing Rameau on harpsichord (Vanguard, The Bach Guild). Not sure whether this ever made it to CD.
I have it on a Vanguard Everyman CD. There is also a Couperin recital but I missed this and the used prices of that stuff are volatile. Not heard any of his Bach on the organ, though.

There is at least one Vanguard CD with Bach as well as another one

[asin]B0000023A7[/asin]
[asin]B000001MLD[/asin]

and here the Rameau and Couperin
[asin]B0000257WO[/asin] [asin]B0000257WQ[/asin]
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on December 29, 2016, 11:29:22 PM
Vielen Dank!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 30, 2016, 12:41:38 AM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on December 29, 2016, 07:06:21 PM
The Philips 2 LP set has probably the ghastliest sound quality I have ever heard--a huge disappointment.

I suppose these recordings were taken from Heiller's "complete" Bach LP set from about 1952. What I have heard from that set was indeed disappointing both as to sound and playing, which was stiff and unimaginative.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 30, 2016, 12:44:17 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 29, 2016, 11:14:27 AM
But there's so much choice... check out for instance the first post of this thread by Premont

I am (prompted by Que) working on an update of this list, but it will take some time until it is finished,
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 30, 2016, 12:55:24 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 30, 2016, 12:44:17 AM
I am (prompted by Que) working on an update of this list, but it will take some time until it is finished,

Your initial list has been a great help, premont!  :)

Quote from: Jo498 on December 29, 2016, 12:34:56 PM
I think a young Christine Schornsheim (probably in her midtwenties then) plays the organ on the reconstructed d minor organ concerto with Pommer.

I probably listed somewhere above already what I have already:

Complete: Koopman/Teldec, diverse/Hänssler
Koopman/Brilliant
7 discs from the "Silbermann organs" on Berlin Classics
4 with Weinberger/cpo
4 with Corti/Antes
CÜ III: Krapp/Berlin, Friedrich/Motette, Brosse
several 1-2 discs anthologies: Walcha, Power Biggs, Tachezi, Bleicher, Friedrich

I don't really want to buy much more (admittedly I have not heard all of my larger boxes although I listened to all of the singles/twofers) but I am thinking about one more "classic" integrale, like Walcha or Alain and was wondering if there were some extraordinary singles/recitals I should know about.

And I'm not going to be of much help here, I'm afraid. Not a big fan of the "classic" integrales.... :-\
Though a friend had Lionel Rogg's set and that was quite OK, though I wouldn't buy it myself.
Other than that, you have everything I like safe for Vernet's cycle. Perhaps have a look at Léon Berben on Ramée.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on December 30, 2016, 12:58:24 AM
Thanks for your efforts Premont--they add greatly to this forum (and my collection)!

I am interested in a thread on historical recordings of pipe organ music. I am not sure whether it is warranted, or if we should tack it on the other pipe organ mega-thread.

Thoughts on

Marcel Dupré
E. Power Biggs
Pierre Cochereau
Albert Schweitzer
Virgil Fox (stop laughing, I heard an interesting performance of Buxtehude from him.)

et al., would be very interesting!

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 30, 2016, 01:04:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 27, 2016, 01:26:46 PM
You're fabulous Marc.

Well, I've ordered the two Bach Cds and they appear to ready to ship to the UK -- I've had a confirmation email and I await an invoice with bated breath.

The invoice number was 26 -- only 25 other people have used their website it seems!

The Dutch are unbelievably good at music. How can such a small nation have so many great musicians and so many great organs? I'm going to try to find a tour of Dutch organs with concerts.

Nothing came of this for me, no reply to my order. So the interesting Bert Matter remains a mystery.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 30, 2016, 01:05:40 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 29, 2016, 01:44:29 AM
A question for those who have heard dozens of recordings:
Which 5 (five) complete (for small values of complete, i.e. older boxes without Neumeister chorales etc. do count) and which 5 singles (1-2 disc sets/anthologies, can be part of complete set but have to be available separately and no partial traversals with >3 discs like Koopman/Novalis) recordings of Bach's organ music would have your highest recommendation/be considered essential/...?

I would get all the recordings Rübsam made for Naxos and Jens Christensen made for Kontrapunkt. And all of Leonhardt's organ recordings.



Oh and by the way, I disrecommend Heiller.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 30, 2016, 01:17:14 AM
Re complete sets, what I would really like is that someone uploads one of the earlier Kooiman sets.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 30, 2016, 01:22:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 30, 2016, 01:17:14 AM
Re complete sets, what I would really like is that someone uploads one of the earlier Kooiman sets.

A reissue would even be better! :)
Since the copyrights are in Dutch hands, my hopes are on Brilliant (which is also Dutch owned).

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 30, 2016, 01:22:19 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 30, 2016, 01:04:14 AM
Nothing came of this for me, no reply to my order. So the interesting Bert Maater remains a mystery.

I know of such mysteries, they have happened to me too... selling cds isn't the core business for most of those societies.
My advice is: send them an e-mail, refer to your order and ordering number, ask them how you have to pay for it when living abroad, and ask them how long it takes them to send the discs, et cetera and et al, of course everything in a polite manner. ;)
Oh, and send the mail cc to: marieke.buiten@kpnmail.nl.
I'm not sure, but I think she's the librarian/documentalist of the Stichting Henrick Baderorgel.

Good luck!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 30, 2016, 01:45:29 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 30, 2016, 01:05:40 AM
[...]
Oh and by the way, I disrecommend Heiller.

:o

OMG, somebody hacked the one and only Mandryka's account!

Quote from: Mandryka on February 02, 2013, 10:11:55 PM
Anton Heiller's Orgelbuchlein and Leipzig Chorales have been transfered and are available from here

http://klassichaus.us/Organ-Keyboard.php

I've only listened to the energetic and jollly and uplifting Orgelbuchlein so far. This is basically a  celebration of God. The sound is very good.

I first got to know this organist through a wonderful Ermitage CD. He really has a face, a character, without being obviously quirky. The Vanguard CD is one of my most played Bach compilation CDs

;D

I do know about these mysteries, too, btw.
Sometimes first favourites get overtaken by others.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 30, 2016, 02:00:04 AM
Quote from: Que on December 30, 2016, 01:22:14 AM
A reissue would even be better! :)
Since the copyrights are in Dutch hands, my hopes are on Brilliant (which is also Dutch owned).

I fear not.
They already replaced the Fagius set for the new Stefano Molardi integral.

Maybe we should all write to Challenge Records and say that they should try to reiussue the Coronata Koopman, or try to get the publishing rights for that other very good Dutch integral by Bram Beekman (who, btw, died earlier this year). Those former Lindenberg recordings are superb, and the choice of organs is yummy, too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on December 30, 2016, 02:23:12 AM
Quote from: Que on December 30, 2016, 01:22:14 AM
A reissue would even be better! :)
Since the copyrights are in Dutch hands, my hopes are on Brilliant (which is also Dutch owned).

Q

Fear not, it's in the pipeline, although I do not know which recording they take, neither do I know the date Brilliant will release.
The Molardi set has not been the success they expected.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 30, 2016, 03:01:48 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on December 30, 2016, 02:23:12 AM
Fear not, it's in the pipeline, although I do not know which recording they take, neither do I know the date Brilliant will release.
The Molardi set has not been the success they expected.

That is really great news! :)
Though judging from the reissue of the Weiss set by Cardin, it could take a year or two. Will be worth the wait. 8)

We both had our doubts about Molardi in Bach - amazing talent wasted on the wrong choice of repertoire.... Or just too early in his carreer....
Though the IMO terrific  Kuhnau set is a good revindication. :)

Of course Brilliant already had a complete Frescobaldi keyboard works in their catalogue (Roberto Lorreggian), but something like that would  probably been a better choice.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: amw on December 30, 2016, 03:43:05 AM
I'm an incredibly shallow asshole where it comes to organ music, so my #1 concern is the sound of the instruments. So I basically looked at the set "on Silbermann organs" (i don't remember performer), Foccroulle and Weinberger, and I think I decided to get Foccroulle because I found the sound on the Silbermann set too "watery" and Weinberger just is spread out over too many damn CDs >_> I don't want 21 CDs of Bach organ music. For that matter I don't even want 16. I'd be totally fine with like, three. But I had never heard a single piece of Bach's organ music except some very shitty performances of the Toccata & Fugue and a couple of the other fugues on shitty modern organs, and had no idea what I was going to like enough to listen to repeatedly.

Anyway, no complaints with Foccroulle, lots of wonderful music in there that I'm probably going to listen to all of eventually. Atm my main method of listening is I just put all 303 tracks on shuffle and listen to whatever comes up until I get bored or have to go do something else. Idk whether this counts as a recommendation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on December 30, 2016, 04:20:40 AM
I heard "BACH - Saorgin, organ - O Mensch, bewein dein Sünde gross BWV 622" on internet, And frankly found it to be quite good! Anyone has more listening experience with this performer?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 30, 2016, 04:26:39 AM
Quote from: amw on December 30, 2016, 03:43:05 AM
I'm an incredibly shallow asshole where it comes to organ music, so my #1 concern is the sound of the instruments. So I basically looked at the set "on Silbermann organs" (i don't remember performer), Foccroulle and Weinberger, and I think I decided to get Foccroulle because I found the sound on the Silbermann set too "watery" and Weinberger just is spread out over too many damn CDs >_> I don't want 21 CDs of Bach organ music. For that matter I don't even want 16. I'd be totally fine with like, three. But I had never heard a single piece of Bach's organ music except some very shitty performances of the Toccata & Fugue and a couple of the other fugues on shitty modern organs, and had no idea what I was going to like enough to listen to repeatedly.

Anyway, no complaints with Foccroulle, lots of wonderful music in there that I'm probably going to listen to all of eventually. Atm my main method of listening is I just put all 303 tracks on shuffle and listen to whatever comes up until I get bored or have to go do something else. Idk whether this counts as a recommendation.O

Weinberger is too variable. Listen to his Leipzig Chorales and see if you agree with me. They're spread on two discs on two organs, the first outstanding, some really fabulous Bach playing. The second CD, no good at all.

I think Foccroulle has highs and lows, the highs maybe not as wild as Weinberger but still very special - in the big sets of chorales for example.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on December 30, 2016, 04:33:19 AM
My advice would be for all that seek Bach on the Organ, to listen to as many tracks as there are on internet. A good thing is also to buy cheap releases from people that have earned their place. It's far better as listening to the  bashing of performers for not doing this or that right, as if the best performers are on GMG or other forums.
Take into account the opinion of people that know, instead of those that pretend.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 30, 2016, 04:40:36 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on December 30, 2016, 02:23:12 AM
Fear not, it's in the pipeline, although I do not know which recording they take, neither do I know the date Brilliant will release.
The Molardi set has not been the success they expected.

That's great news, Harry!

To be honest: personally and selfishly, I would be 'better' off when they would re-release Kooiman's first (vinyl) integral, because I already managed to get the Coronata recordings between 2009 and 2011, with the help of organ friends, the library (Clavier-Übung 3) and (huhu) myself.

But I also have one or two 1980s recordings by Kooiman with Bach & other baroque composers, and it seemed to me that he was playing less 'free' in his earlier years, so for the 'general' organ lover it would be better that the Coronata discs were reissued.

Never expected that Brilliant would come out with a 3rd Bach organ set, but hey, it's great to be surprised!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 30, 2016, 04:44:39 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on December 30, 2016, 04:20:40 AM
I heard "BACH - Saorgin, organ - O Mensch, bewein dein Sünde gross BWV 622" on internet, And frankly found it to be quite good! Anyone has more listening experience with this performer?

His Orgelbüchlein is indeed a classic (and also mentioned by Premont in the first post in this ongoing :) thread).
It's been some time since I last listened to it, but I liked it a lot.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on December 30, 2016, 04:46:49 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 30, 2016, 04:44:39 AM
His Orgelbüchlein is indeed a classic (and also mentioned by Premont in the first post in this ongoing :) thread).
It's been some time since I last listened to it, but I liked it a lot.

Then I will give it a go. Thank you!!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: amw on December 30, 2016, 04:53:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 30, 2016, 04:26:39 AM
Weinberger is too variable. Listen to his Leipzig Chorales and see if you agree with me. They're spread on two discs on two organs, the first outstanding, some really fabulous Bach playing. The second CD, no good at all.

I think Foccroulle has highs and lows, the highs maybe not as wild as Weinberger but still very special - in the big sets of chorales for example.

I picked one from each album to test: BWV 658 and 659. Part of the problem is that I don't know either piece. I found the performance of BWV 659 enchanting and that of BWV 658 rather boring. I guess that's the exact opposite of your opinion though. >_>

BWV 657 was much better than 658. BWV 660, comparatively with 659, seemed a bit of a mess though still quite interesting. (I've apparently heard 657 once and 660 also zero times. in fact iTunes informs me I've heard exactly 3 of the Leipzig Chorales.) I'm probably listening for the wrong things and judging performances too much by their registrations or something.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 30, 2016, 05:03:41 AM
Quote from: amw on December 30, 2016, 04:53:53 AM
I picked one from each album to test: BWV 658 and 659. Part of the problem is that I don't know either piece. I found the performance of BWV 659 enchanting and that of BWV 658 rather boring. I guess that's the exact opposite of your opinion though. >_>

BWV 657 was much better than 658. BWV 660, comparatively with 659, seemed a bit of a mess though still quite interesting. (I've apparently heard 657 once and 660 also zero times. in fact iTunes informs me I've heard exactly 3 of the Leipzig Chorales.) I'm probably listening for the wrong things and judging performances too much by their registrations or something.

Well at least we agree that he's variable!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 30, 2016, 05:08:58 AM
Quote from: amw on December 30, 2016, 04:53:53 AM
I picked one from each album to test: BWV 658 and 659. Part of the problem is that I don't know either piece. I found the performance of BWV 659 enchanting and that of BWV 658 rather boring. I guess that's the exact opposite of your opinion though. >_>

BWV 657 was much better than 658. BWV 660, comparatively with 659, seemed a bit of a mess though still quite interesting. (I've apparently heard 657 once and 660 also zero times. in fact iTunes informs me I've heard exactly 3 of the Leipzig Chorales.) I'm probably listening for the wrong things and judging performances too much by their registrations or something.

Nah, I think ur just following your own taste. Nothing much wrong with that.
I'd like to add though, that at first I wasn't all that fond of many of the reed stops.
Well, that certainly changed over the years.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: amw on December 30, 2016, 05:14:46 AM
He definitely is quite variable as far as I can tell. There was one album in the series that sounded like music from the 25th century or something, due to the combination of instrument and tuning, but I now can't remember which one. Maybe the Neumeister Chorales. Some of the others sound quite muddy and rather conventional though now that I'm sampling through them. So idk.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 30, 2016, 05:19:55 AM
Quote from: amw on December 30, 2016, 05:14:46 AM
. There was one album in the series that sounded like music from the 25th century or something, due to the combination of instrument and tuning, but I now can't remember which one. Maybe the Neumeister Chorales.

That sounds fun, if you remember which one let me know. (I'm listening to 1090 now and it sounds OK.)

The Art of Fugue really goes into some sort of alpha-state after about half a dozen or so fugues and he keeps it going for quite a while.

But maybe the most extraordinary thing he does is the ricercar from Opfer. Bach Motörhead style.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 30, 2016, 08:09:14 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 30, 2016, 01:45:29 AM
:o

OMG, somebody hacked the one and only Mandryka's account!

;D

I do know about these mysteries, too, btw.
Sometimes first favourites get overtaken by others.
I was wrong this morning, you were right. I just listened to the Orgelbuchlein. I like the registrations on the Metzler. The voicing is lively.  I like the strong sense of movement forward, there's a feeling of  spontaneous and sincere  expression of deep things,  it made me think of Jens Christensen's Art of Fugue. What I said in 2013 about "celebrating God" or something doesn't really do it justice: it's spookier than that.  The sound quality is excellent given the period of the recording.

To some extent I'm such a sucker for Orgelbuchlein that I could be exaggerating, in fact I'm sure I am exaggerating.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 31, 2016, 02:02:16 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 30, 2016, 08:09:14 AM
I was wrong this morning, you were right. I just listened to the Orgelbuchlein. I like the registrations on the Metzler. The voicing is lively.  I like the strong sense of movement forward, there's a feeling of  spontaneous and sincere  expression of deep things,  it made me think of Jens Christensen's Art of Fugue. What I said in 2013 about "celebrating God" or something doesn't really do it justice: it's spookier than that.  The sound quality is excellent given the period of the recording.

To some extent I'm such a sucker for Orgelbuchlein that I could be exaggerating, in fact I'm sure I am exaggerating.

And my 'problem' is, that I do not listen enough to the Orgelbüchlein... I always seem to go for the 'Organ Mass', the Leipziger Choräle and Die Kunst der Fuge.
Added to another 'problem': after some five years of monomaniac organ listening (mainly Bach), I have turned to other instruments the last couple of years, and to other ensembles and composers, too.
It's almost a suprise for myself that I ended up again in this everlasting thread.

Anway, here's wishing you a happy new year with all the Büchleins, Heillers, Christensens and all other great music and its performers!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 31, 2016, 06:28:14 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 30, 2016, 01:22:19 AM
I know of such mysteries, they have happened to me too... selling cds isn't the core business for most of those societies.
My advice is: send them an e-mail, refer to your order and ordering number, ask them how you have to pay for it when living abroad, and ask them how long it takes them to send the discs, et cetera and et al, of course everything in a polite manner. ;)
Oh, and send the mail cc to: marieke.buiten@kpnmail.nl.
I'm not sure, but I think she's the librarian/documentalist of the Stichting Henrick Baderorgel.

Good luck!

It's very annoying because I see from their website that they've reduced the price of the CDs in a promotion, so they clearly have them and someone there wants to sell them. Anyway,  I've done what you suggested.

The invoice just says "Betaalwijze: Betalen via factuur" and "Wij danken u voor uw bestelling. Indien u vragen heeft, kunt u natuurlijk te allen tijde contact met ons opnemen". but no payment details, no calculation of the delivery costs,  not even an address to contact them. WTF are they expecting me to do?  If you can see a phone number for them (I can't) let me know and I'll try that way.

Added: Found the CDs here, and they did take my money, so things are looking a bit more hopeful.

https://www.boeijengamusic.com
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 31, 2016, 10:29:36 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 31, 2016, 06:28:14 AM
It's very annoying because I see from their website that they've reduced the price of the CDs in a promotion, so they clearly have them and someone there wants to sell them. Anyway,  I've done what you suggested.

The invoice just says "Betaalwijze: Betalen via factuur" and "Wij danken u voor uw bestelling. Indien u vragen heeft, kunt u natuurlijk te allen tijde contact met ons opnemen". but no payment details, no calculation of the delivery costs,  not even an address to contact them. WTF are they expecting me to do?  If you can see a phone number for them (I can't) let me know and I'll try that way.

Added: Found the CDs here, and they did take my money, so things are looking a bit more hopeful.

https://www.boeijengamusic.com

Ah, Boeijenga, in Leeuwarden (capital of Fryslân)... well, there's a chance you'll be luckier with them.
Those Frisians are probably more used to 'international affairs'.

The invoice means btw: Payment via payment bill. Thanks for your order. For questions, please send us a mail.
Well, at least you did the latter. But yes, I agree with you: first action should be taken by them.

Anyway, I sent you a PM (and Premont, too), without a true solution, but maybe some useful info.

Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 01, 2017, 05:15:45 AM
Latest on Forbes:

The 10 Best Classical Recordings Of 2016 (Re-Releases)
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/01/Forbes-Best-Classical-Recordings-of-2016-R01-Bach-Isoir_la-dolce-volta_Art-of-the-Fugue_laurson-1200x470.jpg?width=960)
Johann Sebastian Bach, The Art of the Fugue, BWV 1080, André Isoir (organ), La Dolce Volta (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/01/01/the-10-best-classical-recordings-of-2016-re-releases/2/#7551580876a1)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 10, 2017, 03:16:47 AM
I now have Bert Matter's CU 3 and Leipzig Chorales. Initial impression of the Leipzig chorales makes me think that this is a very major achievement.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 15, 2017, 07:49:27 AM
Thought this was a nice clip to post in this thread: Bernard Winsemius playing Bach's Trio Sonata in C minor BWV 526, on the Christian Müller organ, Waalse Kerk, Amsterdam, NL.

https://www.youtube.com/v/Kw_BdtL8Hw0

Project "All of Bach": http://allofbach.com/en/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 22, 2017, 12:18:15 PM
I had a very nice experience today listening to Bernard Winsemius playing BWV 547, and then Marie Claire Alain (second set), and I just wondered if anyone can remember any other really outstanding recordings.  The Fugue is fabulous.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 22, 2017, 02:53:53 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 22, 2017, 12:18:15 PM
I had a very nice experience today listening to Bernard Winsemius playing BWV 547, and then Marie Claire Alain (second set), and I just wondered if anyone can remember any other really outstanding recordings.  The Fugue is fabulous.

I always enjoyed Walcha's jubilant interpretations, the Alkmaar version the most.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on February 22, 2017, 04:52:32 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 22, 2017, 12:18:15 PM
I had a very nice experience today listening to Bernard Winsemius playing BWV 547, and then Marie Claire Alain (second set), and I just wondered if anyone can remember any other really outstanding recordings.  The Fugue is fabulous.

One of the grandest and most life-affirming P&F's of Bach!

My favorite is Koopman on Novalis - slightly fast, but with a wonderful reedy plenum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeYbWye_2hk

If you're talking about Winsemius playing on his "Advent and Christmas" disc, it's a very fine interpretation! I actually his fugue more than I do Koopman's.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 23, 2017, 07:20:19 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on February 22, 2017, 04:52:32 PM
One of the . . . most life-affirming P&F's of Bach!


I'm not sure Rubsam (Naxos) agrees about this. It is extraordinary, what he does.

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on February 22, 2017, 04:52:32 PM

If you're talking about Winsemius playing on his "Advent and Christmas" disc, it's a very fine interpretation! I actually his fugue more than I do Koopman's.

Yes that one.

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on February 22, 2017, 04:52:32 PM
One of the grandest . . . P&F's of Bach!


I'm not sure that Koopman (Novalis) would agree. It is extraordinary, what he does.


Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on February 22, 2017, 04:52:32 PM


. . . Koopman . . .  with a wonderful reedy plenum:



I agree about this


Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on February 22, 2017, 04:52:32 PM

- slightly fast,


I see you are a master of understatement.


It made me think of Paul Jacobs's performance of Beethoven op 10 /3. The conception of Beethoven as about power and playfulness feels OK for what we know about the man and his ideas, though I'm hardly a Beethoven connoisseur. For Bach I'm less sure.

There's a large section of the fugue which is often very dissonant, Koopman (Novalis) seems to smooth out some of these asperities and that's a shame I think.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on February 23, 2017, 08:23:53 AM
If I ever get married the Prelude from BWV 547 would be included in the music in church. (In a pinch the D major Prelude from WTC II played on organ would do as well. No Mendelssohn march, please!)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: North Star on February 23, 2017, 01:44:59 PM
I guess you aren't familiar with the wedding marches by Toivo Kuula (not related) or Erkki Melartin?  8)

https://www.youtube.com/v/OcqkMGrC2kc   https://www.youtube.com/v/KJM2AEd0nYs
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on February 23, 2017, 04:37:08 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 23, 2017, 07:20:19 AM
I see you are a master of understatement.

Nah, just a speed freak. I've liked Koopman fast organ playing in almost all cases, especially in large toccatas or in the Leipzig chorales (which are great fun to listen to). I think the only ones I've disliked are his Bruhns and Buxtehude magnificat primi toni (Like Piet Kee the most).

But again, I do like slower performances so I can hear more nuances. But some, like Walcha, sound too dry and neo-baroquey to me.

I listened to Rubsam, and while the prelude was a bit too heavy for my taste, the fugue was nice and grand, and indeed highlighted the dissonances well. But not earth-shattering.
What's the organ used in the recording? Naxos' website is rather hard to navigate. It's definitely not the rococo-southern-german instrument on the cover - it sounds like a Northern or possibly central German instrument. From the mixtures, is it Groningen?

Edit: it is the Martinikerk Groningen.

Another edit: Found a version I really loved, played by Dirksen. I think I enjoy it more than Winsemius who plays on the same organ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMN_O932v8Y

Edit #3: I found a description of this piece on Contrembombarde, which I sometimes visit. Quite interesting:

Quote from: Agnus_DeiDr. Albert Schweitzer saw in the prelude the vision of a "crowd moving along in solemn jubilation; Harvey Grace, and others have pointed out the thematic resemblances to the opening chorus of the Epiphany Cantata, "Sie werden aus Saba alle kommen," but that cantata was composed some 20 years earlier. E. Power Biggs thought the "carillon like" pedal part in the prelude "radiated the festive lights of Christmas," while Anton Heiller felt that this piece was about the Resurrection and Ascension.

The fugue is outstanding for the terseness of its distinctive subject, the tautness with which the fabric is consistently woven, the dramatic force of the long-delayed pedal entrance, and the well-nigh superhuman strength of the torrential flow of sheer energy which is guided, and, at the end, curbed, and all while sitting upon a long and triumphant tonic pedal. (some of these notes are from the writings of R. D. Darrell.)

Edit #4 (Oh dear):
I'm listening to Koopman's Buxtehude Magnificat I mentioned earlier- I'm enjoying the speed, but sometimes I wonder if Koopman uses speed as a "mask" to hide under when he doesn't have any other insights to offer about a piece - after all, speeding a piece up is a surefire way to make it sound "bold and refreshing."

I think the true masters are the ones who are able to slow things down and make it sound good. Like Leonhardt, Rannou's Goldberg, Glenn Gould (Okay, he sped up everything else but some of his "slow" ones are pure genius), or more recently Wim Winters and his Partitas.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on February 23, 2017, 04:44:33 PM
Slightly off-topic: speaking of speed freaks, how do you think of Lena Jacobsen?

She and her ideas about "Musical Rhetoric" are just crazy, and her  playing can either sound like that of a 10-year old who has't entirely mastered scales/has some sort of palsy/has legs so short that he can't reach the pedals on time, or at other times just be utterly brilliant - I have no idea how I should think of her and her playing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 23, 2017, 08:46:35 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on February 23, 2017, 04:44:33 PM
Slightly off-topic: speaking of speed freaks, how do you think of Lena Jacobsen?

She and her ideas about "Musical Rhetoric" are just crazy, and her  playing can either sound like that of a 10-year old who has't entirely mastered scales/has some sort of palsy/has legs so short that he can't reach the pedals on time, or at other times just be utterly brilliant - I have no idea how I should think of her and her playing.

What exactly are her ideas about rhetoric? I mean she's published on this but I've never read the paper.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 23, 2017, 09:53:01 PM
I once listened to BWV 547 played by Wolfgang Zerer full-force, being the last piece of a concert in Uithuizermeeden, NL (Hinsz organ), a small village church with almost no reverb. It was great, it was awesome, and afterwards I thanked Zerer for the great concert... but I walked out with a vicious headache. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 23, 2017, 10:23:14 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 23, 2017, 08:46:35 PM
What exactly are her ideas about rhetoric? I mean she's published on this but I've never read the paper.

Jacobsen, Lena. "Musical Rhetoric in Buxtehude's Free Organ Works." Organ Year Book
XIII (1982): 60–79.

This famous (notorious) article is (almost?) impossible to find.
Organist and scholar Leon W. Couch III has written some articles about baroque rhetorics in which Jacobsen ideas are mentioned now and then.

Here's his website:
http://scholarship.profcouch.us/

Who knows, Mandryka, maybe he's even willing to send you a copy of the Jacobsen article...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on February 24, 2017, 10:48:38 PM
Stray thought.

If Koopman was a a painter, he would be a mannerist.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Parmigianino_003b.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 24, 2017, 11:56:51 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on February 24, 2017, 10:48:38 PM
Stray thought.

If Koopman was a a painter, he would be a mannerist.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Parmigianino_003b.jpg)

Not disagreeing. But rephrased, it sounds quite different:

If Koopman was a a painter, he would be Michelangelo.

;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: North Star on February 25, 2017, 04:13:55 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on February 24, 2017, 11:56:51 PM
Not disagreeing. But rephrased, it sounds quite different:

If Koopman was a a painter, he would be Michelangelo Bronzino.
;D
8)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Agnolo_Bronzino_-_Portrait_of_Cosimo_I_de%27_Medici_as_Orpheus_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg/800px-Agnolo_Bronzino_-_Portrait_of_Cosimo_I_de%27_Medici_as_Orpheus_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg)

Leonhardt would be Michelangelo, of course...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on February 25, 2017, 07:39:13 AM
Quote from: North Star on February 25, 2017, 04:13:55 AM
8)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Agnolo_Bronzino_-_Portrait_of_Cosimo_I_de%27_Medici_as_Orpheus_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg/800px-Agnolo_Bronzino_-_Portrait_of_Cosimo_I_de%27_Medici_as_Orpheus_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg)

Leonhardt would be Michelangelo, of course...

Continuing this little fancy, I would say Leonhardt is Durer.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Albrecht_D%C3%BCrer_Saint_Jerome_1521.jpg)

But based on his artwork collection, he seems to have more of a 18th-century type of aesthetic.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on February 26, 2017, 06:38:38 PM
Quote from: Harry's corner on December 30, 2016, 02:23:12 AM
Fear not, it's in the pipeline, although I do not know which recording they take, neither do I know the date Brilliant will release.
The Molardi set has not been the success they expected.

(I think this is in reference to the Bram Beekman set on Coronata?)
Is this true, or just a stray rumor? If true, this is awesome!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 26, 2017, 09:24:56 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on February 26, 2017, 06:38:38 PM
(I think this is in reference to the Bram Beekman set on Coronata?)
Is this true, or just a stray rumor? If true, this is awesome!

As far as I understood, it is about either one of Ewald Kooiman's first two OOP integrals.
The first has only been issued on vinyl, and the 2nd one was the cd integral for Coronata.

(Bram Beekman's OOP integral was for Lindenberg. Lindenberg went bankrupt in the autumn of 2008. The firm was well-known in the Lower Countries for a.o. its yummy organ discs catalogue.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on February 26, 2017, 09:37:26 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 26, 2017, 09:24:56 PM
As far as I understood, it is about either one of Ewald Kooiman's first two OOP integrals.
The first has only been issued on vinyl, and the 2nd one was the cd integral for Coronata.

(Bram Beekman's OOP integral was for Lindenberg. Lindenberg went bankrupt in the autumn of 2008. The firm was well-known in the Lower Countries for a.o. its yummy organ discs catalogue.)

Although I'd still like to have a listen of the Beekman (and probably Wiersma's Bach in Groningen), I think this is excellent news!

How would you describe Beekman's playing, as compared to other organists, in his Bach set?

Edit: Just found this. Wow. (Perhaps I shouldn't have leaked it? ;) )
http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/cd-s-en-dvd-s/cd-s-klassiek/m1139867470-zeldzame-complete-bach-serie-bram-beekman-orgel-18-cd-s.html?c=8c285449651fa109c354bbabe740c1b&previousPage=lr&pos=2
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 26, 2017, 10:27:13 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on February 26, 2017, 09:37:26 PM
Although I'd still like to have a listen of the Beekman (and probably Wiersma's Bach in Groningen), I think this is excellent news!

How would you describe Beekman's playing, as compared to other organists, in his Bach set?

Edit: Just found this. Wow. (Perhaps I shouldn't have leaked it? ;) )
http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/cd-s-en-dvd-s/cd-s-klassiek/m1139867470-zeldzame-complete-bach-serie-bram-beekman-orgel-18-cd-s.html?c=8c285449651fa109c354bbabe740c1b&previousPage=lr&pos=2

Beekman's style is mostly straightforward in a very relaxed and comfortable way, in a style close to the freshly breathing HIP-manner, with a great feeling for registrations. I especially like his choral playing. I listen to his Leipziger Choräle and CU III an 'awful' lot. Only a few free works are played a tad too stiff.
The recording sound is, IMO, impeccable. Ideal combination of the churches acoustics and the sound and features of the historical instruments.

About the Marktplaats add: could be an expensive one. I bought all the orgininal boxes except one (CU III) in 2009, when they were available for still reasonable prices. I borrowed CU III from the Dutch library and made a copy. In later years some folks offered me almost ridiculous prices for a few volumes of both the Beekman/Lindenberg and the Koopman/Coronata set (up to around € 100,-- for either a Beekman or Koopman volume)... but I refused.

I could have been a rich man. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on February 27, 2017, 12:50:18 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on December 30, 2016, 04:20:40 AM
I heard "BACH - Saorgin, organ - O Mensch, bewein dein Sünde gross BWV 622" on internet, And frankly found it to be quite good! Anyone has more listening experience with this performer?

I have several times recommended his Orgelbüchlein on Harmonia Mundi Fr. The choral O Mench is part of Orgelbüchlein. He did not record much other Bach. He was an interesting and reasonably informed performer. Most of his recordings are on HMF. Buxtehude complete, Georg Muffat Apparatus Musico-Organisticus, some Frescobaldi e.g. Much of it OOP since long.

https://www.amazon.fr/gp/offer-listing/B0000007HN/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used

https://www.amazon.fr/Orgues-Historiques-Italiens-Brescia-Bastia/dp/B000FUKNP2/ref=sr_1_30?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1488188852&sr=1-30&keywords=rene+saorgin

https://www.amazon.fr/Orgue-Historiques-France-French-historical/dp/B000FPLUUO/ref=sr_1_31?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1488188929&sr=1-31&keywords=rene+saorgin
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on February 27, 2017, 12:54:24 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 27, 2017, 12:50:18 AM
I have several times recommended his Orgelbüchlein on Harmonia Mundi Fr. The choral O Mench is part of Orgelbüchlein. He did not record much other Bach. He was an interesting and reasonably informed performer. Most of his recordings are on HMF. Buxtehude complete, Georg Muffat Apparatus Musico-Organisticus, some Frescobaldi e.g. Much of it OOP since long.

https://www.amazon.fr/gp/offer-listing/B0000007HN/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used

https://www.amazon.fr/Orgues-Historiques-Italiens-Brescia-Bastia/dp/B000FUKNP2/ref=sr_1_30?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1488188852&sr=1-30&keywords=rene+saorgin

https://www.amazon.fr/Orgue-Historiques-France-French-historical/dp/B000FPLUUO/ref=sr_1_31?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1488188929&sr=1-31&keywords=rene+saorgin

Yes I know you did my friend. I followed your advice and ordered at several places recordings with Saorgin. I always read your postings with interest, for you are far better informed and knowledgeable as I am when it comes to Organ/Choral music (Renaissance)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 01, 2017, 12:08:11 PM
Does anyone have a list of what was on each of Piet Wiersma's Bach in Groningen CDs?  They come up from time to time, I'd like to buy more of them, but it's hard to find out what music is on the CDs when they're offered for sale.

At the moment I could buy 5, 6 and 7. I have the CU3 (was that 1?) Are there any exceptional ones besides the CU3? We're there any disappointments?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 02, 2017, 12:09:18 PM
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-whdHBte4BAk/VyussD6h-5I/AAAAAAAADDY/NkSoaoFNwDsXiDHTW1xwuhGhI9pFCS7nwCLcB/s1600/front.jpg)  (https://www.aeolus-music.com/var/shop_site/storage/images/alle-tontraeger/ae10761-bach-johann-sebastian-complete-organ-works/26550-60-eng-GB/AE10761-Bach-Johann-Sebastian-Complete-Organ-Works_medium.jpg)

I've been listening to some Leipzig Chorales by Kooiman on Coronata and Aeolus. I couldn't help think of a comment that Sofronitsky made about his approach to Chopin towards the end of his life, in the last studio recordings he made in the early 1960s. He said that he'd found a simpler, purer new style. Maybe a similar thing happened to Walcha too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 02, 2017, 04:26:09 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 01, 2017, 12:08:11 PM
Does anyone have a list of what was on each of Piet Wiersma's Bach in Groningen CDs?  They come up from time to time, I'd like to buy more of them, but it's hard to find out what music is on the CDs when they're offered for sale.

At the moment I could buy 5, 6 and 7. I have the CU3 (was that 1?) Are there any exceptional ones besides the CU3? We're there any disappointments?

This isn't complete, but you can see tracklists here
https://freedbcd.ru/?words=wiersma&type=0

Piet Wiersma's Bach also sounds very interesting.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 02, 2017, 04:29:55 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 02, 2017, 12:09:18 PM
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-whdHBte4BAk/VyussD6h-5I/AAAAAAAADDY/NkSoaoFNwDsXiDHTW1xwuhGhI9pFCS7nwCLcB/s1600/front.jpg)  (https://www.aeolus-music.com/var/shop_site/storage/images/alle-tontraeger/ae10761-bach-johann-sebastian-complete-organ-works/26550-60-eng-GB/AE10761-Bach-Johann-Sebastian-Complete-Organ-Works_medium.jpg)

I've been listening to some Leipzig Chorales by Kooiman on Coronata and Aeolus. I couldn't help think of a comment that Sofronitsky made about his approach to Chopin towards the end of his life, in the last studio recordings he made in the early 1960s. He said that he'd found a simpler, purer new style. Maybe a similar thing happened to Walcha too.

I would agree, although I've only heard extraits from the rather pricey Aeolus set.
But it seems like something most Dutch organists have in common is that their playing is often stately and muscular, even profound but simple. (Examples like Piet Kee, Beekman, van Beek, de Vries, Doeselaar, van Dijk, Winsemius... let's throw Leonhardt in the mix too)
Most aren't prone to over-ornamentation, even in the Baroquest of works, but tend to convey the "shapes" of the counterpoint extremely well.

Ton Koopman's an outlier.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 02, 2017, 04:37:10 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 02, 2017, 04:29:55 PM
I would agree, although I've only heard extraits from the rather pricey Aeolus set.
But it seems like something most Dutch organists have in common is that their playing is often stately and muscular, even profound but simple. (Examples like Piet Kee, Beekman, van Beek, de Vries, Doeselaar, van Dijk, Winsemius... let's throw Leonhardt in the mix too)
Most aren't prone to over-ornamentation, even in the Baroquest of works, but tend to convey the "shapes" of the counterpoint extremely well.

Ton Koopman's an outlier.

I just listened to this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xthKosW4Djc
which was a promo for the Aeolus Kooiman set.

It was quite nice, but at some times, he made a few agogics that reminded me unpleasantly of Lena Jacobsen's trigger-finger syndrome music. I guess this piece was still meant for harpsichord, as these agogics probably would be perfectly fine on a harpsichord. (Or is it just how Kooiman plays it? Leonhardt's version of it on organ is also glorious and fits the organ well)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 08, 2017, 08:45:58 PM
Hi, any review on Robert Quinney, Christopher Houlihan, or Robert Costin ?
Thanks a lot!




Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 09, 2017, 01:41:43 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 08, 2017, 08:45:58 PM
Hi, any review on Robert Quinney, Christopher Houlihan, or Robert Costin ?
Thanks a lot!

Quinney is Bach in modern neo-baroque sound, interpretation straightforward, no-nonsense.

Houlihan I have not heard - probably I shall acquire his Bach CD.

A few days ago I ordered Costin's WTC, may take some time for it to be delivered.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 09, 2017, 05:22:39 AM
Quinney played at the wedding of Prince William and Princess. I thought you found his playing too fast.
http://www.theroyalforums.com/22452-musicians-for-the-wedding-of-prince-william-and-catherine-middleton/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 09, 2017, 08:51:16 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 08, 2017, 08:45:58 PM
Hi, any review on Robert Quinney, Christopher Houlihan, or Robert Costin ?
Thanks a lot!

Cotlin's WTC Bk 2. Perfectly OK organ, but with limited bass. Tempos, voicing, rubato are middle of the road HIP. The registrations seem absolutely fine to me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 09, 2017, 09:18:05 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 08, 2017, 08:45:58 PM
Hi, any review on Robert Quinney, Christopher Houlihan, or Robert Costin ?
Thanks a lot!

Houlihan's Bach. I listened to the G Major trio sonata, I was hoping for something interesting because on his website he says

Quote from: Christopher Houlihan in http://www.christopherhoulihan.com/christopher-houlihan-plays-bachThe past sixty or so years have seen numerous, groundbreaking recordings of Bach's music on historic and historically informed instruments; this recording is a decidedly modern take on this repertoire. You'll hear crescendos and diminuendos as well as registration changes that are only possible on a modern organ. I do not believe this distorts Bach's genius, but rather highlights different aspects of it. It's a little like playing Bach on a piano: perhaps one doesn't play it like Liszt would have, but how much does one pretend the piano is a harpsichord?

However I didn't notice anything special.

I thought the first movement was underarticulated and a bit breathless, with undistinguished rubato and not much by way of interesting voicing. The largo was kaleidoscopic and IMO the music just never came off the page, this is partly because Houlihan doesn't seem to able to create a meaningful relation between the voices. I thought the brash registrations in the allegro, and the speed, was irredeemably vulgar, like circus music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 10, 2017, 07:29:20 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 09, 2017, 09:18:05 AM
Houlihan's Bach. I listened to the G Major trio sonata, I was hoping for something interesting because on his website he says

However I didn't notice anything special.

I thought the first movement was underarticulated and a bit breathless, with undistinguished rubato and not much by way of interesting voicing. The largo was kaleidoscopic and IMO the music just never came off the page, this is partly because Houlihan doesn't seem to able to create a meaningful relation between the voices. I thought the brash registrations in the allegro, and the speed, was irredeemably vulgar, like circus music.

Thank you for the critique. It is insightful and informative. As for the Costin recording, I am not big fan of the registrations though his performance evinces his command and musical ideas. He recorded GV as well.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 11, 2017, 03:48:04 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 09, 2017, 05:22:39 AM
Quinney played at the wedding of Prince William and Princess. I thought you found his playing too fast.
http://www.theroyalforums.com/22452-musicians-for-the-wedding-of-prince-william-and-catherine-middleton/

Fast, but not hectic.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 16, 2017, 02:30:53 PM
Good effort though some pieces are simply not for organ arrangements.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 16, 2017, 05:17:23 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 16, 2017, 02:30:53 PM
Good effort though some pieces are simply not for organ arrangements.
Agreed. Deserves a "you tried" prize.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on March 30, 2017, 02:27:06 PM

New one.

[asin]B01N4225YS[/asin]
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 30, 2017, 07:42:45 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 06, 2013, 12:48:12 PM
And in mp3 sound the historical organs do not sound the way they deserve.

Do you suggest that we should listen to them in CD format with a decent audio system?
I mainly use iPod bluetoothed to a decent 90s Sony system. Some of the works are digital files I bought at Amazon etc.
Perhaps, should I purchase my favorite recordings in CD format?
Also, I am curious about other members' audio system.
Thanks.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 30, 2017, 11:45:20 PM
QuoteAlso, I am curious about other members' audio system.
Thanks.

There's a thread which will cover some of that:

voila: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1069.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1069.0.html)

Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 30, 2017, 07:42:45 PM
Do you suggest that we should listen to them in CD format with a decent audio system?
I mainly use iPod bluetoothed to a decent 90s Sony system. Some of the works are digital files I bought at Amazon etc.
Perhaps, should I purchase my favorite recordings in CD format?


I'm not even sure if you are being facetious or not, to be honest.  ;)

But assuming you're not: Yes. Especially organ (among a few other genres; or each, really, in its own way), which makes particular demands on speakers and amplification.

A nice extension down to the bass is nice to have, for one... and not many speakers really go as low as a pipe organ can. That's not as dramatic as it sounds, since the ears can be easily fooled into hearing very low notes, but it's even nicer to actually feel them. And the wealth of overtones and the nuance a good instrument can produce is also nice to pick up... and a detailed sound re-production will make you hear much more nuances. MP3s take away some of that. They're not as bad as they are sometimes made out to be (we've had an interesting blind-listening comparative test, some years back at GMG, and I think the consensus was that you CAN hear the difference... but that it's not as obvious as you'd have thought and becomes more obvious perhaps on extended exposure. (The slightly fuzzy field of 'audio fatigue'.)

In any case, organ music would be among the more obvious kind of music to benefit from a decent (and better) audio system being fed the full information a CD can provide.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 31, 2017, 07:20:53 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 30, 2017, 11:45:20 PM
There's a thread which will cover some of that:

voila: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1069.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1069.0.html)

I'm not even sure if you are being facetious or not, to be honest.  ;)

But assuming you're not: Yes. Especially organ (among a few other genres; or each, really, in its own way), which makes particular demands on speakers and amplification.

A nice extension down to the bass is nice to have, for one... and not many speakers really go as low as a pipe organ can. That's not as dramatic as it sounds, since the ears can be easily fooled into hearing very low notes, but it's even nicer to actually feel them. And the wealth of overtones and the nuance a good instrument can produce is also nice to pick up... and a detailed sound re-production will make you hear much more nuances. MP3s take away some of that. They're not as bad as they are sometimes made out to be (we've had an interesting blind-listening comparative test, some years back at GMG, and I think the consensus was that you CAN hear the difference... but that it's not as obvious as you'd have thought and becomes more obvious perhaps on extended exposure. (The slightly fuzzy field of 'audio fatigue'.)

In any case, organ music would be among the more obvious kind of music to benefit from a decent (and better) audio system being fed the full information a CD can provide.

Thank you for the info. I take it that CD format is a necessary condition, but not necessary and sufficient condition, for authentic audio representation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 31, 2017, 07:59:53 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 31, 2017, 07:20:53 AM
Thank you for the info. I take it that CD format is a necessary condition, but not necessary and sufficient condition, for authentic audio representation.

No, the CD format is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for authentic .....
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 31, 2017, 08:18:17 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 31, 2017, 07:20:53 AM
Thank you for the info. I take it that CD format is a necessary condition, but not necessary and sufficient condition, for authentic audio representation.

A CD is better than mp3. But As long as the resolution is the same as a CD (i.e. a non-compressed file, assuming its source isn't worse than a CD-quality file), the result is at least the same.
Some say that the same file played from a CD and a hard-drive (assuming the same Digital-to-Analog converter handles the files) will sound better form a hard drive. (Fewer moving parts, apparently.)
Streaming can be done at higher-than CD quality which, if the bandwidth is good enough and there's no issues with gapless play, then that's better than CD, too.

But it is true, the CD has set the standard with 44.1kHz/16 bit... and below that you can soon hear the drop-off in quality whereas above it the increase in quality is homeopathic and in any case easily overshadowed by better quality reproduction-gear.

This is instructive to a degree, covering one aspect of audio quality (the 16-bit bit):

http://www.tested.com/tech/1905-the-real-differences-between-16-bit-and-24-bit-audio/ (http://www.tested.com/tech/1905-the-real-differences-between-16-bit-and-24-bit-audio/)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nODn5HJGtAY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nODn5HJGtAY)
And you can easily open a can of worms. https://youtu.be/nLEhfieoMq8 (https://youtu.be/nLEhfieoMq8)

But I feel that there's got to be a dedicated thread about this topic here on on the GMGCMF, where we might take the conversation, if you are inclined to continue it. There will be many more (diverse and disagreeing and informed) voices to chime in.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 31, 2017, 02:15:13 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 31, 2017, 08:18:17 AM
A CD is better than mp3. But As long as the resolution is the same as a CD (i.e. a non-compressed file, assuming its source isn't worse than a CD-quality file), the result is at least the same.
Some say that the same file played from a CD and a hard-drive (assuming the same Digital-to-Analog converter handles the files) will sound better form a hard drive. (Fewer moving parts, apparently.)
Streaming can be done at higher-than CD quality which, if the bandwidth is good enough and there's no issues with gapless play, then that's better than SACD, too.

But it is true, the CD has set the standard with 44.1kHz/16 bit... and below that you can soon hear the drop-off in quality.

This is instructive to a degree, covering one aspect of audio quality (the 16-bit bit):

http://www.tested.com/tech/1905-the-real-differences-between-16-bit-and-24-bit-audio/ (http://www.tested.com/tech/1905-the-real-differences-between-16-bit-and-24-bit-audio/)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nODn5HJGtAY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nODn5HJGtAY)
And you can easily open a can of worms. https://youtu.be/nLEhfieoMq8 (https://youtu.be/nLEhfieoMq8)

But I feel that there's got to be a dedicated thread about this topic here on on the GMGCMF, where we might take the conversation, if you are inclined to continue it. There will be many more (diverse and disagreeing and informed) voices to chime in.

Thank you for the elaboration. Very informative. I think I need to be careful about the frequency range the bluetooth can carry as well.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 01, 2017, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 31, 2017, 02:15:13 PM
Thank you for the elaboration. Very informative. I think I need to be careful about the frequency range the bluetooth can carry as well.
Beware that blue-tooth transmission, regardless of the source, always involves compression. There's a higher-quality blue-tooth format/decoding ("aptX"?), but it's not industry standard.

Here's the most active hi-fi thread where such questions will be well asked and even better answered: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1069.1360.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1069.1360.html)

And now back to Bach on the organ!  ;D

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxtJqMoXEAAL83B.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Bach #organMusic on @ChandosRecords w/#PietKee which would be lovely... http://ift.tt/2eTr845 (http://a-fwd.to/5iV78GY)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 01, 2017, 08:19:59 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 01, 2017, 01:52:04 AM
Beware that blue-tooth transmission, regardless of the source, always involves compression. There's a higher-quality blue-tooth format/decoding ("aptX"?), but it's not industry standard.

Here's the most active hi-fi thread where such questions will be well asked and even better answered: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1069.1360.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1069.1360.html)

And now back to Bach on the organ!  ;D

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxtJqMoXEAAL83B.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Bach #organMusic on @ChandosRecords w/#PietKee which would be lovely... http://ift.tt/2eTr845 (http://a-fwd.to/5iV78GY)

I love the disk. Great performance, great instument and good recording sound.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 02, 2017, 08:52:46 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 22, 2017, 02:53:53 PM
I always enjoyed Walcha's jubilant interpretations, the Alkmaar version the most.

Yes, i agree totally, the Alkmaar performance is a little miracle.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 02, 2017, 06:41:32 PM
Quote from: milk on March 30, 2017, 02:27:06 PM
New one.

[asin]B01N4225YS[/asin]

Love it. Subtle and elegant (though I am not crazy about a few pieces).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2017, 04:48:54 AM
(http://redmp3.su/cover/2837337-460x460/galantes-gelehriges.jpg)

Opinions requested on this unusual recording of the sonatas by Rainer Goede.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 04, 2017, 08:23:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 04, 2017, 04:48:54 AM
(http://redmp3.su/cover/2837337-460x460/galantes-gelehriges.jpg)

Opinions requested on this unusual recording of the sonatas by Rainer Goede.

I have not been aware, that Goede had recorded the trio-sonatas, but I know his Art of Fugue and CU3.
The ttrio-sonatas are recorded on a very interesting organ, which has not been used often for recordings of Bach, Some may find its sound to much post-baroque. Nonetheless this is a recording I want to hear, so I shall order it soon.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2017, 10:28:05 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 04, 2017, 08:23:02 AM
I have not been aware, that Goede had recorded the trio-sonatas, but I know his Art of Fugue and CU3.
The ttrio-sonatas are recorded on a very interesting organ, which has not been used often for recordings of Bach, Some may find its sound to much post-baroque. Nonetheless this is a recording I want to hear, so I shall order it soon.

Can you find a link to buy the Art of Fugue for me, I want to hear it?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 04, 2017, 10:52:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 04, 2017, 10:28:05 AM
Can you find a link to buy the Art of Fugue for me, I want to hear it?

Have not seen it outside the label's website, for what it's worth: http://www.mitraclassics.de/pages/mitra-shop/johann-sebastian-bach-kunst-der-fuge-122.php (http://www.mitraclassics.de/pages/mitra-shop/johann-sebastian-bach-kunst-der-fuge-122.php)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2017, 11:41:34 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 04, 2017, 10:52:22 AM
Have not seen it outside the label's website, for what it's worth: http://www.mitraclassics.de/pages/mitra-shop/johann-sebastian-bach-kunst-der-fuge-122.php (http://www.mitraclassics.de/pages/mitra-shop/johann-sebastian-bach-kunst-der-fuge-122.php)

Thanks for the link. I got to find out about Rainer Goede's Trio Sonatas through Johan van Veen's critical review. At first I thought he was right to be negative but I've found what Goede does repays repeated listening. In particular, I like the way he doesn't try to dazzle the listener with fast tempos or symphonic colours. And I like the clarity of voices, including the music in the pedals, which is not too overwhelmed by the other parts.

http://www.musica-dei-donum.org/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 04, 2017, 09:37:13 PM
I felt so lucky this weekend when I found the officially OOP Lagacé integral on Amazon (as part of a UK reseller catalogue), for € 80,--! Hurrah!
So... I ordered it immediately. Yesterday, four days later, I received this e-mail: Bestelliung storniert; Artikel nicht lieferbar (Order cancelled; item not available). These are the downsides of internet shopping, I guess. Even though I already knew (thx to a few discs of the library) that Lagacé wasn't my fave Bach interpreter, my greedy collector's heart feels hurt.

I need the comfort of a sultry woman now, who's playing a Bach Trio Sonata in a cold church, shielded by the Rückwerk, with me listening downstairs with my eyes closed, shivering yet enjoying the beautiful music, and after all that she heats me up in the pulpit.

Well, at least my fantasy world is still working... too bad I have to work. :P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 05, 2017, 01:46:40 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 04, 2017, 09:37:13 PM
I felt so lucky this weekend when I found the officially OOP Lagacé integral on Amazon (as part of a UK reseller catalogue), for € 80,--! Hurrah!
So... I ordered it immediately. Yesterday, four days later, I received this e-mail: Bestelliung storniert; Artikel nicht lieferbar (Order cancelled; item not available). These are the downsides of internet shopping, I guess. Even though I already knew (thx to a few discs of the library) that Lagacé wasn't my fave Bach interpreter, my greedy collector's heart feels hurt.

I need the comfort of a sultry woman now, who's playing a Bach Trio Sonata in a cold church, shielded by the Rückwerk, with me listening downstairs with my eyes closed, shivering yet enjoying the beautiful music, and after all that she heats me up in the pulpit.

Well, at least my fantasy world is still working... too bad I have to work. :P

While I totally empathize with the collector's feeling of loss of having an oop goodie on the shelves, don't you think you might secretly be blessed in having saved $80 AND listening to what... 22? CDs all played on that Von Beckerath instrument?  ;) That seems like a lot of Bach on the same organ... given that it's said not to be a particularly magnificent sounding (or well recorded) instrument.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 05, 2017, 02:59:44 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 05, 2017, 01:46:40 AM
While I totally empathize with the collector's feeling of loss of having an oop goodie on the shelves, don't you think you might secretly be blessed in having saved $80 AND listening to what... 22? CDs all played on that Von Beckerath instrument?  ;) That seems like a lot of Bach on the same organ... given that it's said not to be a particularly magnificent sounding (or well recorded) instrument.

I agree about the instrument.
But was it really that bad recorded?

Anyway: I was mostly curious about / interested in the 'add-on' discs... WTK, Inventionen, Kunst der Fuge et al.

For the rest: of course you're right, I'm blessed.
And I've got € 80 left to spend on beer.

(I was mostly pissed off by the seller... putting it for sale on Amazon whilst not having it in stock.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 05, 2017, 10:37:27 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 05, 2017, 02:59:44 AM

(I was mostly pissed off by the seller... putting it for sale on Amazon whilst not having it in stock.)

Yes... he probably thought he could source it for less from somewhere else -- and it turned out then that he couldn't, after all. Tsk. Enjoy the beer! Having one (https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/142/924/), right now.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 05, 2017, 08:10:59 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 05, 2017, 10:37:27 AM
[...] Enjoy the beer! Having one (https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/142/924/), right now.

Ha! Franziskaner!
Makes a nice combi with organ music. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 07, 2017, 07:10:54 PM
Listnening to these lesser-known albums nowadays. If anybody has opinion or thoughts on the recordings, I would appreciate it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on April 08, 2017, 01:15:56 AM
What do folks think of this?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Dh_N6HPjwOA/VVcv0z-8USI/AAAAAAAADC4/zPeqvq9zfwc/s1600/untitled.png)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 08, 2017, 04:16:38 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on April 07, 2017, 07:10:54 PM
Listnening to these lesser-known albums nowadays. If anybody has opinion or thoughts on the recordings, I would appreciate it.

I do not know any of them.

The first with Luc Ponet contains very little Bach - only some spurious chorale preludes.

The second with Pierre Méa sounds interesting (judged from clips) so I have ordered it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 08, 2017, 04:20:08 AM
Quote from: milk on April 08, 2017, 01:15:56 AM
What do folks think of this?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Dh_N6HPjwOA/VVcv0z-8USI/AAAAAAAADC4/zPeqvq9zfwc/s1600/untitled.png)

Luca Guglielmi is a reliable and sometimes original performer, and I had my eyes on this CD some months ago, but I passed it by because of the (only moderately interesting) programming.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 08, 2017, 07:30:25 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 08, 2017, 04:16:38 AM
I do not know any of them.

The first with Luc Ponet contains very little Bach - only some spurious chorale preludes.

The second with Pierre Méa sounds interesting (judged from clips) so I have ordered it.

The non-Bach compositions by Ponet sound good to me.
I am looking forward to hearing your opinion on Mea.
Btw, the both are on YT and SF

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeFIyXVO5hEv2GwNZHTXHu_nDeqEJjeXa

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeM9udOVLkmmoDDiYYtnE1gCLV-utQQ8x
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 08, 2017, 07:59:35 AM
Solid recordings with great sound.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 08, 2017, 11:13:07 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on April 08, 2017, 07:59:35 AM
Solid recordings with great sound.

Indeed!

(And part of the 'old' recommendations by Premont in the first post of this thread, about 10 years ago.)

And now... a recommendation of me myself and I:
Bach's 'Orgelmesse', played by Bram Beekman on the 17th century organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam.
Beekman's Bach boxset is OOP already since autumn 2008, but here's a clip of CU 3 with acceptable sound:

https://www.youtube.com/v/y3JHvAvEfh4
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 08, 2017, 11:43:56 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 08, 2017, 11:13:07 AM
Indeed!

(And part of the 'old' recommendations by Premont in the first post of this thread, about 10 years ago.)

And now... a recommendation of me myself and I:
Bach's 'Orgelmesse', played by Bram Beekman on the 17th century organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam.
Beekman's Bach boxset is OOP already since autumn 2008, but here's a clip of CU 3 with acceptable sound:

https://www.youtube.com/v/y3JHvAvEfh4

Listening to Beekman's BWV 688 right now... this one is probably my favourite BWV 688 cd/recording experience ever (and ever), expecially with the sounds of the Bovenwerk floating and 'echoing' around as if some angel is answering from the vaults of the church.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 08, 2017, 07:29:44 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 08, 2017, 11:13:07 AM
Indeed!

(And part of the 'old' recommendations by Premont in the first post of this thread, about 10 years ago.)

And now... a recommendation of me myself and I:
Bach's 'Orgelmesse', played by Bram Beekman on the 17th century organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam.
Beekman's Bach boxset is OOP already since autumn 2008, but here's a clip of CU 3 with acceptable sound:

https://www.youtube.com/v/y3JHvAvEfh4

Great performance and great organ sound. Thank you for the link. Also, I will check his "200 Years of German Organ Music" as well.


P.s. I like your previous discussions on Alessio Corti.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 08, 2017, 10:49:25 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 08, 2017, 11:43:56 AM
Listening to Beekman's BWV 688 right now... this one is probably my favourite BWV 688 cd/recording experience ever (and ever), expecially with the sounds of the Bovenwerk floating and 'echoing' around as if some angel is answering from the vaults of the church.

I agree that Beekman's good in it, I like all his CU 3.



There is just one radical reinterpretation of 688 that I know: Rubsam (Naxos.) I think he  takes his inspiration from the opening lines  of the  hymn, because the way I hear it there's loads of anger in the upper voices in Rubsam's interpretation, and the cantus firmus sounds as though it's trying to appease that anger.

Christ Jesus, our Redeemer born,
Who from us did God's anger turn,
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 09, 2017, 01:34:15 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 08, 2017, 10:49:25 PM
I agree that Beekman's good in it, I like all his CU 3.



There is just one radical reinterpretation of 688 that I know: Rubsam (Naxos.) I think he  takes his inspiration from the opening lines  of the  hymn, because the way I hear it there's loads of anger in the upper voices in Rubsam's interpretation, and the cantus firmus sounds as though it's trying to appease that anger.

Christ Jesus, our Redeemer born,
Who from us did God's anger turn,

And, who knows, maybe he's 'right'.
(If there is really right and wrong in this.)

Rübsam's Naxos series is mandatory stuff IMO, but I have to admit that I'm not always in the right mood for it. He makes me think too much whilst listening. ;)

Beekman says: not to worry, despite evil and anger, God is great.
Rübsam says: be aware, evil and anger can be on the lurk, and it has to be defeated.
Maybe that's even how they think about belief and faith in general.

I'm thinking too much (again)...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 09, 2017, 01:45:31 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on April 08, 2017, 07:29:44 PM
Great performance and great organ sound. Thank you for the link. Also, I will check his "200 Years of German Organ Music" as well.


P.s. I like your previous discussions on Alessio Corti.

What I like about both Corti and Beekman, is the naturalness of their playing, without 'much ado'.
But I've spoken to other organ and Bach lovers who find Beekman's style rathing boring... tastes differ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 09, 2017, 09:26:27 AM
Quote from: milk on March 30, 2017, 02:27:06 PM
New one.

[asin]B01N4225YS[/asin]

Quote from: Forever Electoral College on April 02, 2017, 06:41:32 PM
Love it. Subtle and elegant (though I am not crazy about a few pieces).

Mm... I don't think I'm gonna listen to this one quite often.
I even doubt if I'm going to buy another Suzuki organ disc.

:(

Heard Suzuki play live once, in the Martinikerk of Groningen, NL, where one could hear that he enjoyed playing there, and the same goes (more or less) for his Groningen Bach disc (Volume 1 of this-integral-to-be?), but overall I'm beginning to fear that Suzuki the 'lightweight' organist leaves me rather cold. And the Garnier organ in Kobe must be one of the most harmless modern baroque instruments around. Compared to what f.i. builders like Ahrend, Aubertin and the Göteborg team have given us in this métier, this Garnier sounds like the ideal instrument for a friendly Kindergarten.

(Apologies for being a bit harsh.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on April 10, 2017, 04:48:02 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 09, 2017, 09:26:27 AM
Mm... I don't think I'm gonna listen to this one quite often.
I even doubt if I'm going to buy another Suzuki organ disc.

:(

Heard Suzuki play live once, in the Martinikerk of Groningen, NL, where one could hear that he enjoyed playing there, and the same goes (more or less) for his Groningen Bach disc (Volume 1 of this-integral-to-be?), but overall I'm beginning to fear that Suzuki the 'lightweight' organist leaves me rather cold. And the Garnier organ in Kobe must be one of the most harmless modern baroque instruments around. Compared to what f.i. builders like Ahrend, Aubertin and the Göteborg team have given us in this métier, this Garnier sounds like the ideal instrument for a friendly Kindergarten.

(Apologies for being a bit harsh.)
I saw him in Kobe playing Sweelinck. It totally transported me. It was almost transcendental for me. Still, I haven't been bowled over by any of his recordings save for the partitas. But the live organ concert in Kobe was, in my opinion, inspired and magical. Maybe it's because it's a very small room so you're right next to the pipes. But, his playing seemed like improvisation. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on April 10, 2017, 05:02:04 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 09, 2017, 09:26:27 AM
Mm... I don't think I'm gonna listen to this one quite often.
I even doubt if I'm going to buy another Suzuki organ disc.

:(

Heard Suzuki play live once, in the Martinikerk of Groningen, NL, where one could hear that he enjoyed playing there, and the same goes (more or less) for his Groningen Bach disc (Volume 1 of this-integral-to-be?), but overall I'm beginning to fear that Suzuki the 'lightweight' organist leaves me rather cold. And the Garnier organ in Kobe must be one of the most harmless modern baroque instruments around. Compared to what f.i. builders like Ahrend, Aubertin and the Göteborg team have given us in this métier, this Garnier sounds like the ideal instrument for a friendly Kindergarten.

(Apologies for being a bit harsh.)

I fully agree with you. I found the first disc recorded in the Martini Church an absolute gem, but the second disc in this series a dead duck.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 10, 2017, 05:12:20 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on April 10, 2017, 05:02:04 AM
I fully agree with you. I found the first disc recorded in the Martini Church an absolute gem, but the second disc in this series a dead duck.

Thanks, I am going to pass it by. Completism has got its limits.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on April 10, 2017, 02:51:17 PM
Quote from: milk on April 08, 2017, 01:15:56 AM
What do folks think of this?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Dh_N6HPjwOA/VVcv0z-8USI/AAAAAAAADC4/zPeqvq9zfwc/s1600/untitled.png)

I remember being quite intrigued by this (especially the organ, I've heard Bach played on Italian organs to great effect e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1VPSajsi18) but it turned out to be tepid and boring. I'm listening to it, and am still not impressed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 13, 2017, 02:54:21 PM
Amazon advice: If you dislike Suzuki, you might hate this!

Classical CD Of The Week: Johann Sebastian Clown
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/04/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_CARPENTER-All-you-need-is-BACH-SONY_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
http://bit.ly/CDoftheWeek054 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/04/13/classical-cd-of-the-week-johann-sebastian-clown/#79d94b8258c0)

Johann Sebastian Clown: For all those unafraid of garish colors, subwoofer-busting bass, and liberal applications of tremulant and celeste, this is the ticket!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on April 17, 2017, 10:59:35 AM
Cross post from the main Listening thread

Setting myself up for a 3 1/2 hour Bachathon/organathon to finish this set
[asin]B00N1ZHWJ8[/asin]
CD 13
Clavierubung 3, first part
CD 14
Clavierubung 3, second part
Canonic variations on Von Himmel Hoch
Leipzig Chorales, first part
CD 15
Leipzig Chorales, second part
Ricecar a 6 from Musical Offering

General impression is favorable compared to, say, Alain II or Preston. Instruments seem all modern, registrations chosen seem generally lighter than what I remember from other sets.  Works are presented more or less chronologically. My favorite remains Vernet.

(Other sets I have: Preston, Alain II, Koopman, the multi-performer Hanssler set, Vernet, Foccroulle.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 17, 2017, 09:47:44 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 17, 2017, 10:59:35 AM
Cross post from the main Listening thread

Setting myself up for a 3 1/2 hour Bachathon/organathon to finish this set
[asin]B00N1ZHWJ8[/asin]
CD 13
Clavierubung 3, first part
CD 14
Clavierubung 3, second part
Canonic variations on Von Himmel Hoch
Leipzig Chorales, first part
CD 15
Leipzig Chorales, second part
Ricecar a 6 from Musical Offering

General impression is favorable compared to, say, Alain II or Preston. Instruments seem all modern, registrations chosen seem generally lighter than what I remember from other sets.  Works are presented more or less chronologically. My favorite remains Vernet.

(Other sets I have: Preston, Alain II, Koopman, the multi-performer Hanssler set, Vernet, Foccroulle.

The Clavier-Übung 3 and the Ricercar from BWV 1079 are played on the historical Gabler organ in Weingarten, a rather famous one and, for this set, beautifully recorded by the Calliope team.
The Leipzig Chorales are played on the ('modern baroque') Westenfelder organ in Fère-en-Tardenois, France.

To me, the entire set has its goods and its 'bads'. Like Herrick for the British, Isoir is the most poetic of the French 'integralists'. Sometimes it works for me, sometimes it doesn't. But it's certainly a nice set to have and there's plenty to enjoy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 18, 2017, 04:16:08 AM
Isoir's CU3 sounds to me like he's having a bit of a laugh playing some Bach for our entertainment. Colourful and fun, not spiritual or challenging. It's a product of its times maybe, there's something hippy-trippy about the colours of the registrations, especially combined with the danciness of the interpretations, and  the forward motion at the expense of anything contemplative.  Cool organ as Marc says.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 18, 2017, 04:36:26 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 17, 2017, 10:59:35 AM
My favorite remains Vernet.



Can't get in with his CU 3 at all, it sounds as if he bites off each piece with one chomp and then spits it out in one go.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on April 18, 2017, 05:00:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 18, 2017, 04:16:08 AM
Isoir's CU3 sounds to me like he's having a bit of a laugh playing some Bach for our entertainment. Colourful and fun, not spiritual or challenging. It's a product of its times maybe, there's something hippy-trippy about the colours of the registrations, especially combined with the danciness of the interpretations, and  the forward motion at the expense of anything contemplative.  Cool organ as Marc says.

I was pretty impressed by his interpretation of the Passacaglia on the Weingarten Gabler organ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRPq0Vwnq8M
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 18, 2017, 11:13:52 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on April 18, 2017, 05:00:02 AM
I was pretty impressed by his interpretation of the Passacaglia on the Weingarten Gabler organ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRPq0Vwnq8M

Have you ever seen the Weingarten organ? What a TERRIFIC instrument. My W2B and I took a detour from our Lake Constance bike trip just to see that instrument or, initially, to see the Basilica. Only then did I return home and look which recordings I had of that instrument and was delighted to find that they were in this cycle.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on April 19, 2017, 04:58:41 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 18, 2017, 11:13:52 PM
Have you ever seen the Weingarten organ? What a TERRIFIC instrument. My W2B and I took a detour from our Lake Constance bike trip just to see that instrument or, initially, to see the Basilica. Only then did I return home and look which recordings I had of that instrument and was delighted to find that they were in this cycle.

not to mention those ivory pipes - one can't have too much bling ;-)
(part of the 2' Flageolet on the positiv)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on May 07, 2017, 06:12:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 18, 2017, 04:16:08 AM
Isoir's CU3 sounds to me like he's having a bit of a laugh playing some Bach for our entertainment. Colourful and fun, not spiritual or challenging. It's a product of its times maybe, there's something hippy-trippy about the colours of the registrations, especially combined with the danciness of the interpretations, and  the forward motion at the expense of anything contemplative.  Cool organ as Marc says.
this inspired me to buy Isoir's complete. He really is a trip. Two performances that stand out as particularly wild are BWV 688 and Fantasia, BWV 572 III - among many rollicking tracks. Trippy indeed! The fantasia sounds like modern art! What about his non-Bach output? Anything particularly noteworthy? I want more of this psychedelic stuff. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mr. Minnow on May 25, 2017, 02:04:50 PM
I have the complete sets by Fagius and Foccroulle but I'm thinking of adding one more. From what I've read, Koopman's set on Teldec/Das Alte Werk sounds as though it might be quite different to what I have, so I'm leaning towards that one. Any thoughts?

I was listening to the Prelude and Fugue BWV 547 from Foccroulle's set this evening. It's a great piece, but during the fugue I was wondering where the inverted version of the subject comes in. There's certainly a point where the music noticeably changes, but such is the relentless density of the contrapuntal texture that it's hard to make out exactly what the inverted subject sounds like (the description of the fugue on allmusic notes that it can be "difficult for the listener to find a foothold in the piece"!). Anyone have a link that points it out? I've come across various articles which require a level of knowledge of music theory that I don't have, so it would be useful to actually hear this thing. Any help appreciated! 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mahlerian on May 25, 2017, 02:30:45 PM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on May 25, 2017, 02:04:50 PM
I have the complete sets by Fagius and Foccroulle but I'm thinking of adding one more. From what I've read, Koopman's set on Teldec/Das Alte Werk sounds as though it might be quite different to what I have, so I'm leaning towards that one. Any thoughts?

I was listening to the Prelude and Fugue BWV 547 from Foccroulle's set this evening. It's a great piece, but during the fugue I was wondering where the inverted version of the subject comes in. There's certainly a point where the music noticeably changes, but such is the relentless density of the contrapuntal texture that it's hard to make out exactly what the inverted subject sounds like (the description of the fugue on allmusic notes that it can be "difficult for the listener to find a foothold in the piece"!). Anyone have a link that points it out? I've come across various articles which require a level of knowledge of music theory that I don't have, so it would be useful to actually hear this thing. Any help appreciated!

It seems like the inverted form of the subject (rather than just the inverted head motif, which appears earlier) starts to take over the texture at approximately 6:14 here, simultaneously with the cadence that precedes it (which is why it's not as noticeable of an event as you might think).  It is then taken up and developed at length.

An augmented version of the inverted subject (note values twice as long) is played in the bass at 8:28 too.

https://www.youtube.com/v/nvVFRo_4b0o
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: amw on May 25, 2017, 02:55:53 PM
While I'm thinking about it: any WTC recommendations on organ?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mr. Minnow on May 25, 2017, 03:59:40 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on May 25, 2017, 02:30:45 PM
It seems like the inverted form of the subject (rather than just the inverted head motif, which appears earlier) starts to take over the texture at approximately 6:14 here, simultaneously with the cadence that precedes it (which is why it's not as noticeable of an event as you might think).  It is then taken up and developed at length.

An augmented version of the inverted subject (note values twice as long) is played in the bass at 8:28 too.

https://www.youtube.com/v/nvVFRo_4b0o

Thanks, that's very helpful. Listening to what occurs at 6:14 and 8:28 I can clearly hear the same melody so I now know what to listen for. The notes in Foccroulle's set state that the inverted subject enters in four parts, which I'm guessing means there are four distinct entries. I can't tell if there are that many; if there are they don't appear to occur in very quick succession, but I guess they're in there somewhere. By the way, by "head motif" do you mean just the first part of the subject rather than the whole thing? I didn't notice the first part of the melody that starts at 6:14 occurring earlier but I may well have missed it. Apparently there are literally dozens of entries of the subject, albeit in different forms, in this fugue. No wonder it can be so hard to follow!   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mahlerian on May 25, 2017, 04:15:03 PM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on May 25, 2017, 03:59:40 PM
Thanks, that's very helpful. Listening to what occurs at 6:14 and 8:28 I can clearly hear the same melody so I now know what to listen for. The notes in Foccroulle's set state that the inverted subject enters in four parts, which I'm guessing means there are four distinct entries. I can't tell if there are that many; if there are they don't appear to occur in very quick succession, but I guess they're in there somewhere. By the way, by "head motif" do you mean just the first part of the subject rather than the whole thing? I didn't notice the first part of the melody that starts at 6:14 occurring earlier but I may well have missed it. Apparently there are literally dozens of entries of the subject, albeit in different forms, in this fugue. No wonder it can be so hard to follow!

You're welcome.

The entries at that part are in very quick succession, one after the other, going from soprano to bass in descending order.  Yes, I meant that you can hear the motif used in inverted form just as a way of continuing the texture earlier on, rather than as an independent subject.

Looking at the score of the piece, I'm not at all surprised that it's considered difficult to follow.  In addition to the constant activity, the harmony is quite wayward at moments.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 25, 2017, 11:46:54 PM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on May 25, 2017, 02:04:50 PM
I have the complete sets by Fagius and Foccroulle but I'm thinking of adding one more. From what I've read, Koopman's set on Teldec/Das Alte Werk sounds as though it might be quite different to what I have, so I'm leaning towards that one. Any thoughts?


You might find this list helpful, with all (?) the extant Bach Organ Cycles listed. Many of them have the instruments listed on which they are performed. (Mouse-over)
A Survey of Bach Organ Cycles
http://ionarts.blogspot.co.at/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.co.at/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)

I really like Koopman's set, even if it often doesn't seem to be included among the hard core cognoscenti's recommendations. Foccroulle is awfully laid back for my taste, but very imaginative at times -- and Fagius beautiful but monochromantic. I think that Koopman - but also Alain II or III - would be a considerable departure and worthwhile addition. As would be Weinberger, but perhaps more for his completeness and rigor than his colorful playing and outright impressiveness, which are two strong points of the aforementioned sets.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 12:03:16 AM
Quote from: amw on May 25, 2017, 02:55:53 PM
While I'm thinking about it: any WTC recommendations on organ?

You mean the whole thing on organ? If so, then no recommendations from me without reservations - but you may want to try Robert Costin. Just don't expect too much.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 12:22:43 AM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on May 25, 2017, 02:04:50 PM
I have the complete sets by Fagius and Foccroulle but I'm thinking of adding one more. From what I've read, Koopman's set on Teldec/Das Alte Werk sounds as though it might be quite different to what I have, so I'm leaning towards that one. Any thoughts?

I was listening to the Prelude and Fugue BWV 547 from Foccroulle's set this evening. It's a great piece, but during the fugue I was wondering where the inverted version of the subject comes in. There's certainly a point where the music noticeably changes, but such is the relentless density of the contrapuntal texture that it's hard to make out exactly what the inverted subject sounds like (the description of the fugue on allmusic notes that it can be "difficult for the listener to find a foothold in the piece"!). Anyone have a link that points it out? I've come across various articles which require a level of knowledge of music theory that I don't have, so it would be useful to actually hear this thing. Any help appreciated!

Koopman by all means,  but I think you would find more food for thought if you bought all of Wolfgang Rubsam's organ CDs on Naxos.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 26, 2017, 12:36:09 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 12:03:16 AM
You mean the whole thing on organ? If so, then no recommendations from me without reservations - but you may want to try Robert Costin. Just don't expect too much.

Tastes differ. Costin is just the one, I would put at the bottom.

Agreed, that none of the five available versions is ideal. On my part I prefer Thiery by a narrow margin. He is the only one who does not treat a substantial number of the P&F's as great organ pieces.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 26, 2017, 12:42:10 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 12:22:43 AM
Koopman by all means,  but I think you would find more food for thought if you bought all of Wolfgang Rubsam's organ CDs on Naxos.

Both these gentlemen's recordings are a hit or a miss. But I agree that Rübsam's interpretations are more rewarding, as long as you do not have too many idiosyncrasies.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 01:01:48 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 12:22:43 AM
Koopman by all means,  but I think you would find more food for thought if you bought all of Wolfgang Rubsam's organ CDs on Naxos.
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 26, 2017, 12:42:10 AM
Both these gentlemen's recordings are a hit or a miss. But I agree that Rübsam's interpretations are more rewarding, as long as you do not have too many idiosyncrasies.

The only thing between me and Rübsam's Naxos cycle is the lack of a box-set. But knowing Naxos, that's not forthcoming. No money to be had, selling box sets. The little I have of it, I quite liked -- with the above-mentioned caveats in mind. I also like the much plainer but still very involving Rübsam on Philips, but that can't be a recommendation until it comes back into print, if it ever will.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 26, 2017, 01:27:22 AM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on May 25, 2017, 02:04:50 PM
I have the complete sets by Fagius and Foccroulle but I'm thinking of adding one more. From what I've read, Koopman's set on Teldec/Das Alte Werk sounds as though it might be quite different to what I have, so I'm leaning towards that one. Any thoughts? [...]

Considering the well-thought advices so far, I think there's no escape: you have to get both Koopman (Teldec) and Rübsam (Naxos). :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: amw on May 26, 2017, 01:30:17 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 12:03:16 AM
You mean the whole thing on organ? If so, then no recommendations from me without reservations - but you may want to try Robert Costin. Just don't expect too much.
Hmm, guess WTC on organ is not such a popular idea—there are fewer recordings than I would have thought. I'll do some listening soon.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 26, 2017, 01:58:32 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 25, 2017, 11:46:54 PM

A Survey of Bach Organ Cycles
(http://ionarts.blogspot.co.at/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)

A few comments. You warn against the Membran release of Stockmeier's set. However it is in better sound than the Music and Arts release. Which tells me, that Membran must have licenced it and had access to the original tapes.

Concerning available complete sets (whether recommendable or not) I would add:

Stefano Molardi
Tomasz Adam Nowak

Concerning ongoing cycles (you mention Schauerte):

Joan Lippincott (more than halfway through)
Kei Koito (five volumes so far)
Kåre Nordstoga  (more than halfway through)
David Goode (four volumes so far)
Robert Quinney (3 volumes so far)
Stephan Farr (1 volume so farr)

and maybe

Jolanda Zwoferink (two volumes)



Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on May 26, 2017, 02:00:12 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on May 25, 2017, 04:15:03 PM
You're welcome.

The entries at that part are in very quick succession, one after the other, going from soprano to bass in descending order.  Yes, I meant that you can hear the motif used in inverted form just as a way of continuing the texture earlier on, rather than as an independent subject.

Looking at the score of the piece, I'm not at all surprised that it's considered difficult to follow.  In addition to the constant activity, the harmony is quite wayward at moments.
Bach might have been really great, if only he had written more melodically.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 02:13:18 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 26, 2017, 12:36:09 AM
Tastes differ. Costin is just the one, I would put at the bottom.

Agreed, that none of the five available versions is ideal. On my part I prefer Thiery by a narrow margin. He is the only one who does not treat a substantial number of the P&F's as great organ pieces.

What are the five? Costin, Boccaccio, Thiry, Lagace and . . . who?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 02:15:26 AM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on May 25, 2017, 02:04:50 PM
I have the complete sets by Fagius and Foccroulle but I'm thinking of adding one more. From what I've read, Koopman's set on Teldec/Das Alte Werk sounds as though it might be quite different to what I have, so I'm leaning towards that one. Any thoughts?

I was listening to the Prelude and Fugue BWV 547 from Foccroulle's set this evening. It's a great piece, but during the fugue I was wondering where the inverted version of the subject comes in. There's certainly a point where the music noticeably changes, but such is the relentless density of the contrapuntal texture that it's hard to make out exactly what the inverted subject sounds like (the description of the fugue on allmusic notes that it can be "difficult for the listener to find a foothold in the piece"!). Anyone have a link that points it out? I've come across various articles which require a level of knowledge of music theory that I don't have, so it would be useful to actually hear this thing. Any help appreciated!

The other one to seriously think about is Walcha (Alkmaar) -- I forgot about it earlier, I just think it' s so rewarding you should get it NOW.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on May 26, 2017, 02:21:59 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 12:22:43 AM
Koopman by all means,  but I think you would find more food for thought if you bought all of Wolfgang Rubsam's organ CDs on Naxos.

Koopman ranges from brilliant, "definite" recordings such as the Big Preludes & fugues, Schubler chorales, Concertos, or Trio sonatas ( although I personally prefer John Butt) to average, such as his Clavier Ubung III, to rather boring, such as anything he played on the Zupthen organ (quite a boring sounding instrument in itself). His older set, reissued by Brilliant, is quite nice too.

Kooiman on Aeolus is excellent so far I heard, although it's somewhat absurdly expensive compared to all the others.

Although I have the mp3's now, I'm still hoping that Bram Beekman's set will see daylight again.

Is Kei Koito shooting for an integral?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 26, 2017, 02:36:34 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 26, 2017, 01:58:32 AM
[...]
Concerning ongoing cycles (you mention Schauerte):
[...]
and maybe

Jolanda Zwoferink (two volumes)

Make that three. :)

(But I doubt if she's planned a complete set.)

(https://i.imgbox.com/Z6LF7RlI.jpg)

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Works-ZWOFERINK-JOLANDA/dp/B00WTNST22/?tag=goodmusicguideco
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 26, 2017, 02:44:31 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 02:13:18 AM
What are the five? Costin, Boccaccio, Thiery, Lagace and . . . who?

Desenclos.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 26, 2017, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 26, 2017, 02:36:34 AM
Make that three. :)

(But I doubt if she's planned a complete set.)


So do I, and this is why I wrote MAYBE

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 26, 2017, 02:51:51 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on May 26, 2017, 02:21:59 AM

Is Kei Koito shooting for an integral?

The series is called Bach Masterworks, but it includes more and more "lesser" works, so this may indicate, that they will go on.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 26, 2017, 02:59:08 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on May 26, 2017, 02:21:59 AM
Koopman ranges from briljant [...] to rather boring, such as anything he played on the Zupthen organ (quite a boring sounding instrument in itself). [...]

https://www.youtube.com/v/8_v_h3PfA8Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 03:36:44 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 26, 2017, 01:58:32 AM
A few comments. You warn against the Membran release of Stockmeier's set. However it is in better sound than the Music and Arts release. Which tells me, that Membran must have licenced it and had access to the original tapes.

Concerning available complete sets (whether recommendable or not) I would add:

Stefano Molardi
Tomasz Adam Nowak

Concerning ongoing cycles (you mention Schauerte):

Joan Lippincott (more than halfway through)
Kei Koito (five volumes so far)
Kåre Nordstoga  (more than halfway through)
David Goode (four volumes so far)
Robert Quinney (3 volumes so far)
Stephan Farr (1 volume so farr)

and maybe

Jolanda Zwoferink (two volumes)

I don't think Membran in its existence ever licensed anything properly. "Access" on the other hand, is possible. Where are the original tapes from, anyway? And wouldn't have Music & Arts, which is a legitimate outfit, had access to them? Is it really a notable improvement in A/B comparison? In any case, it's good to know, even if it goes against what I would like to be true.  ;)

Thanks, also, for the hints about other cycles out there. Some of these are very well hidden. Kei Koito is on my radar, since I have all her Bach so far. Molardi's was coming out on Brilliant ... but has that stopped? Where do I find traces of Tomasz Adam Nowak's cycle? David Goode is no my radar; the rest, I think, are new to me and I'll be sure to stay tuned. I'll try to get the Kåre Nordstoga recordings ASAP, seeing that they are on Challenge.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 04:12:40 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 03:36:44 AM
I don't think Membran in its existence ever licensed anything properly. "Access" on the other hand, is possible. Where are the original tapes from, anyway? And wouldn't have Music & Arts, which is a legitimate outfit, had access to them? Is it really a notable improvement in A/B comparison? In any case, it's good to know, even if it goes against what I would like to be true.  ;)

Thanks, also, for the hints about other cycles out there. Some of these are very well hidden. Kei Koito is on my radar, since I have all her Bach so far. Molardi's was coming out on Brilliant ... but has that stopped? Where do I find traces of Tomasz Adam Nowak's cycle? David Goode is no my radar; the rest, I think, are new to me and I'll be sure to stay tuned. I'll try to get the Kåre Nordstoga recordings ASAP, seeing that they are on Challenge.

Did you include Hans Ola Ericsson?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mr. Minnow on May 26, 2017, 06:56:07 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on May 25, 2017, 04:15:03 PM
The entries at that part are in very quick succession, one after the other, going from soprano to bass in descending order.

Ah, in that case I'm missing them. I found an animated score of the piece, on which the first entry and the entry of what sounds like the lowest voice are about ten seconds apart. I couldn't make out any other entries in that ten second interval. I'll have to dig out my Fagius set from wherever it's currently hiding, maybe the entries are more obvious on his recording. There was a piece in Foccroulle's set (I can't remember which one) on which the cantus firmus was pretty hard to hear, but I remember on Fagius's version it was almost impossible to miss.   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mr. Minnow on May 26, 2017, 07:13:16 AM
Thanks for the suggestions and advice on adding another cycle. It seems almost every cycle has its admirers and critics (no surprise there), so there's no obvious, clear cut answer. At the moment I'm still leaning towards Koopman: partly because his set is complete, but more importantly because from an interpretative point of view he almost certainly brings something very different to the table as compared to Fagius and Foccroulle. I believe Koopman also plays on Baroque rather than modern organs, which is a plus as well. Rubsam's Naxos discs appear to divide opinion quite sharply, and while I was interested in Aeolus' complete hybrid SACD set, the price is ludicrous even if I could afford it (which I can't). Even if I do get Koopman now, maybe it's worth considering adding one of Alain's sets a bit later - is there any consensus over which is her best?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 08:22:04 AM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on May 26, 2017, 07:13:16 AM
Even if I do get Koopman now, maybe it's worth considering adding one of Alain's sets a bit later - is there any consensus over which is her best?

Well, set no.1 never made it off LPs. Set no.2 was "the" set for many and has many admirers (myself included). Set no.3 was made by her, when she had access to historical instruments (3 of the ones she included are located in the ex GDR). I had been a proponent of No.2 for  a long time, but I've since come to appreciate No.3 just as much and wouldn't want to choose between the two. If I had to, and didn't have as many other sets, I just MIGHT opt for no.3, not the least because it contains more -- and arguably more interesting -- instruments. It's kind of a toss-up, but for what it's worth: I find Koopman and Alain 2 to be closer than Koopman and Alain 3. Meanwhile, I think you should be well served with Koopman and I'd be surprised if you didn't enjoy it thoroughly.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on May 26, 2017, 08:33:16 AM
Side note on Koopman

As a sort of context setting, he includes some of the chorales Bach arranged /harmonized for four part chorus: the choral chorales as I like to call them.

The choral chorales seem almost terra incognita, but I like them.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 08:35:04 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 04:12:40 AM
Did you include Hans Ola Ericsson?

Hans Ola, how did I miss you?!?

But actually, even looking for it now... I can't find any J.S.Bach cycle of his. Are you sure he's recorded a substantial amount of his music on organ? Is it out on CD?
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 26, 2017, 08:33:16 AM
Side note on Koopman

As a sort of context setting, he includes some of the chorales Bach arranged /harmonized for four part chorus: the choral chorales as I like to call them.

The choral chorales seem almost terra incognita, but I like them.

Ah, yes, I LOVE that about his set. I've since gone out to find other recordings thus arranged (early Rilling and the Brilliant recording with whatshammcallhim), but no one has put Koopman in the shadow in that aspect.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 26, 2017, 08:55:33 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 08:35:04 AM
Hans Ola, how did I miss you?!?

But actually, even looking for it now... I can't find any J.S.Bach cycle of his. Are you sure he's recorded a substantial amount of his music on organ? Is it out on CD?[...]

Maybe he's working on an integral.
Label: Euridice, Norway.

Johann Sebastian Bach: Early Organ Works (EUCD 66, Euridice, Norway)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Complete Chorale Partitas (2 CDs) (EUCD 67, Euridice, Norway)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Orgelbüchlein (2 CDs) (EUCD 68, Euridice, Norway)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Trio Sonatas for organ in Chamber Ensemble Setting (EUCD 69, Euridice, Norway) (with other instrumentalists)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Late organ Works (2 CDs) (EUCD 71, Euridice, Norway)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Dritter Teil der Clavierübung (2 CDs) (EUCD 72, Euridice, Norway)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 11:47:42 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 26, 2017, 08:55:33 AM
Maybe he's working on an integral.
Label: Euridice, Norway.

Johann Sebastian Bach: Early Organ Works (EUCD 66, Euridice, Norway)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Complete Chorale Partitas (2 CDs) (EUCD 67, Euridice, Norway)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Orgelbüchlein (2 CDs) (EUCD 68, Euridice, Norway)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Trio Sonatas for organ in Chamber Ensemble Setting (EUCD 69, Euridice, Norway) (with other instrumentalists)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Late organ Works (2 CDs) (EUCD 71, Euridice, Norway)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Dritter Teil der Clavierübung (2 CDs) (EUCD 72, Euridice, Norway)

I see that info on Wikipedia and I can find references to it on the internets in his biographies, but I can't find evidence for the label or the recordings...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 11:49:44 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 11:47:42 AM
I see that info on Wikipedia and I can find references to it on the internets in his biographies, but I can't find evidence for the label or the recordings...

Well play them, buy them and play them. What sort of evidence are you after? I mean, I've heard some of them. Or maybe go to see the record company at Prinsens Gate 113,  Bodø, Norway.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 12:20:54 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 11:49:44 AM
Well play them, buy them and play them. What sort of evidence are you after? I mean, I've heard some of them. Or maybe go to see the record company at Prinsens Gate 113,  Bodø, Norway.

I'm after any evidence whatsoever. I want to know they exist. A link, a sign on Amazon or some online shop... anything. It's not that I don't believe you, but I can't effin' find them. And I'm not going to Bodø to buy a CD.

More to the point, if this is not in the least bit available outside of Bodø, I can't well include it in my Bach Organ Survey. There's no information on the instruments out there, no cover art... nothing. How would I play them if I can't find even a trace of their existence?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on May 26, 2017, 01:18:26 PM
Five of them are listed as MP3 albums on Amazon US
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_0?fst=as%3Aoff&rh=n%3A163856011%2Ck%3AHans-Ola+Ericsson%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A625150011%2Cn%3A%21624868011%2Cn%3A624926011&bbn=624868011&keywords=Hans-Ola+Ericsson&ie=UTF8&qid=1495833246&rnid=624868011

If that link does not work, do an Amazon search on his name in Digital Music.

ETA
But Amazon does not list them as CDs. Perhaps they are available only as downloads?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 01:50:14 PM
I'm pretty sure they're download only.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 26, 2017, 02:07:38 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 01:50:14 PM
I'm pretty sure they're download only.

Yeah.
Me thinks so, too.

Like here:

https://shop.klicktrack.com/artist/88458
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 02:22:40 PM
Ah, that's helpful. Thanks.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 26, 2017, 03:13:14 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 26, 2017, 08:55:33 AM
Maybe he's working on an integral.
Label: Euridice, Norway.

Johann Sebastian Bach: Early Organ Works (EUCD 66, Euridice, Norway)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Complete Chorale Partitas (2 CDs) (EUCD 67, Euridice, Norway)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Orgelbüchlein (2 CDs) (EUCD 68, Euridice, Norway)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Trio Sonatas for organ in Chamber Ensemble Setting (EUCD 69, Euridice, Norway) (with other instrumentalists)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Late organ Works (2 CDs) (EUCD 71, Euridice, Norway)
Johann Sebastian Bach: Dritter Teil der Clavierübung (2 CDs) (EUCD 72, Euridice, Norway)

Available on Spotify as well.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mr. Minnow on May 26, 2017, 04:47:33 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 02:15:26 AM
The other one to seriously think about is Walcha (Alkmaar) -- I forgot about it earlier, I just think it' s so rewarding you should get it NOW.

Is this the Walcha set you mean?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51WeBCEx38L._SY450_.jpg)

I know Walcha is very highly regarded so he was very much on my radar. Unfortunately the above set is now expensive - about twice the price of Koopman's set - and at 12 discs compared to 16 each for Koopman and Foccroulle and 17 for Fagius, presumably Walcha's set is some way short of complete. MDT don't have it listed at all so maybe the high Amazon price is an indication it's now quite hard to find. If so, hopefully it's just temporarily out of print and will be reissued sooner rather than later at a more affordable price. I'd certainly be tempted should that happen. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on May 26, 2017, 08:04:13 PM
The Walcha was my first complete set. The performances are excellent, if very sober. The SQ is not great, and I find the organs and registrations rather dull compared to other performers (Alain, Hurford, Heiller, et al.)

Any thoughts on Isabelle Demers?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 08:39:37 PM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on May 26, 2017, 04:47:33 PM
Is this the Walcha set you mean?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51WeBCEx38L._SY450_.jpg)

I know Walcha is very highly regarded so he was very much on my radar. Unfortunately the above set is now expensive - about twice the price of Koopman's set - and at 12 discs compared to 16 each for Koopman and Foccroulle and 17 for Fagius, presumably Walcha's set is some way short of complete. MDT don't have it listed at all so maybe the high Amazon price is an indication it's now quite hard to find. If so, hopefully it's just temporarily out of print and will be reissued sooner rather than later at a more affordable price. I'd certainly be tempted should that happen.

Yes  I guess CD versions are becoming increasingly scarce, I expect it's downloadable very cheaply.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 08:43:00 PM
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on May 26, 2017, 08:04:13 PM
The Walcha was my first complete set. The performances are excellent, if very sober. The SQ is not great, and I find the organs and registrations rather dull compared to other performers (Alain, Hurford, Heiller, et al.)

Any thoughts on Isabelle Demers?

I don't agree that the performances are sober, on the contrary I think they are thrilling. Neither do I have a problem about his registrations, which always seem very well chosen to me. The SQ of the Alkmaar recordings (as opposed to the earlier ones) is fine.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 11:18:36 PM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on May 26, 2017, 04:47:33 PM
Is this the Walcha set you mean?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51WeBCEx38L._SY450_.jpg)
Bach, Organ Works
Walcha (stereo)
DG/Archiv (http://a-fwd.to/1Adtcs0)

I know Walcha is very highly regarded so he was very much on my radar. Unfortunately the above set is now expensive - about twice the price of Koopman's set - and at 12 discs compared to 16 each for Koopman and Foccroulle and 17 for Fagius, presumably Walcha's set is some way short of complete. MDT don't have it listed at all so maybe the high Amazon price is an indication it's now quite hard to find. If so, hopefully it's just temporarily out of print and will be reissued sooner rather than later at a more affordable price. I'd certainly be tempted should that happen.

Fortunately, Walcha is plodding and unimaginative and overrated because he was the first - twice - to record these works - and blind to boot. For a while I had always wondered why organists tended to speak derisively of him, but the longer I am around the two sets of Helmut Walcha, the less I like to listen to it, myself. With the exception of his Art of the Fugue (DG's first stereo recording ever) which is actually quite exceptional. In any case, I'd never recommend Walcha over Koopman. In any case, the set seems to hover around 50,- (http://a-fwd.to/1Adtcs0), depending where you are located... used copy of the older version are also available for about that price. (Here (http://a-fwd.to/4hcrv9x)) But as you can see directly above me, there are plenty of wildly differing feelings about Walcha among the Bach-on-organ-loving GMGers here. 

???

But perhaps I'll put it in today, to check if I'm not being a bit too harsh.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 27, 2017, 03:56:58 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 11:18:36 PM
plodding



I just find it really incomprehensible that you can use this word for him. Slow he isn't. Stiff certainly, but there's so much momentum that he can get away with it a lot of the time. Especially in joyful music.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 11:18:36 PM
unimaginative



Equally incomprehensible, given the originality of the vision. I'd say the registrations too. But it's true that I find the style a bit dated and a more expressive approach to the Chorals is better I think. Not necessarily Koopman though.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 11:18:36 PM
.  organists tended to speak derisively of him,

Who are you thinking of?

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 11:18:36 PM
the longer I am around the two sets of Helmut Walcha, the less I like to listen to it, myself.

I have had the opposite response to the Alkmaar in fact. I don't know the earlier set so well.

One little side note, although in my memory the sound of the Alkmaar was fine, this morning, playing the CU 3 from that set, I can see the sound is not as good as I had thought. But it's not like Schweitzer or anything like that, it's totally listenable.

(Interesting to compare Koopman and Walcha in 678 or 680)

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 11:18:36 PM
With the exception of his Art of the Fugue (DG's first stereo recording ever) which is actually quite exceptional.

It would be interesting to know what he's doing that works in AoF for you that you don't find in the trio sonatas, the canonic variations, CU 3, the Leipzig Chorales, Orgelbuchlein. I agree that AoF is a high point by the way.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 11:18:36 PM
I'd never recommend Walcha over Koopman.

I wouldn't want to be without Koopman's Orgelbuchlein.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 27, 2017, 07:25:21 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 27, 2017, 03:56:58 AM
[...]
One little side note, although in my memory the sound of the Alkmaar was fine, this morning, playing the CU 3 from that set, I can see the sound is not as good as I had thought. But it's not like Schweitzer or anything like that, it's totally listenable.
[...]

This (2nd) Walcha set isn't just Alkmaar, but also the Silbermann Organ of the St.-Pierre-le-Jeune in Strasbourg.
The Alkmaar pieces were recorded earlier (1959-1963). Strasbourg sounds better, but Alkmaar has got the more expressive organ IMO.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 27, 2017, 08:40:42 AM
I've been listening to Purcell suites, old recordings, one by Thurston Dart and another one by Kenneth Gilbert on the Vaudry at the Victoria and Albert London. Anyway, maybe this is a stupid idea, but there's something about the classicism and energy of these performances which makes me think of Walcha at his best. I like Dart and Gilbert a lot. 

Not to be confused with Gilbert's second Purcell recording, which is more expressive, but not necessarily better.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 27, 2017, 08:50:50 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 26, 2017, 03:36:44 AM
I don't think Membran in its existence ever licensed anything properly.

Where do you know this from, How reliable is your source?

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty
Thanks, also, for the hints about other cycles out there. Some of these are very well hidden. Kei Koito is on my radar, since I have all her Bach so far. Molardi's was coming out on Brilliant ... but has that stopped? Where do I find traces of Tomasz Adam Nowak's cycle? David Goode is no my radar; the rest, I think, are new to me and I'll be sure to stay tuned. I'll try to get the Kåre Nordstoga recordings ASAP, seeing that they are on Challenge.

Tomasz Adam Nowak here:

https://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/262-9624948-6964243?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=tomasz+adam+Nowak

and here:

https://www.amazon.fr/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/260-3011317-1537053?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=tomasz+nowak

This is one of the few complete sets I have passed by, based on listening to clips. Rigid playing, modern uninteresting organ(s).

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Nowak-Tomasz-Adam.htm

Molardi's cycle is complete in the latest edition of the Brilliant big Bach box.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 27, 2017, 08:57:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2017, 01:50:14 PM
I'm pretty sure they're download only.

Yes, and if we include H O Ericsson, we also ought to include James Kibbie, even if his recordings can be downloaded for free.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 27, 2017, 08:59:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 27, 2017, 03:56:58 AM
I just find it really incomprehensible that you can use this word for him. Slow he isn't. Stiff certainly, but there's so much momentum that he can get away with it a lot of the time. Especially in joyful music.

Equally incomprehensible, given the originality of the vision. I'd say the registrations too. But it's true that I find the style a bit dated and a more expressive approach to the Chorals is better I think. Not necessarily Koopman though.

I have had the opposite response to the Alkmaar in fact. I don't know the earlier set so well.

It would be interesting to know what he's doing that works in AoF for you that you don't find in the trio sonatas, the canonic variations, CU 3, the Leipzig Chorales, Orgelbuchlein. I agree that AoF is a high point by the way.

I agree very much with all this.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mr. Minnow on May 27, 2017, 05:08:27 PM
A question for those who have Koopman's set: I just noticed that several Amazon reviews complain about a lack of clarity of individual voices. Is there any truth in this? To be fair, other reviews claim the sound is excellent. Clarity of each voice is obviously important in the more densely contrapuntal works so it would be useful to hear what others think about this before I pull the trigger on Koopman's set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on May 27, 2017, 11:18:38 PM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on May 27, 2017, 05:08:27 PM
A question for those who have Koopman's set: I just noticed that several Amazon reviews complain about a lack of clarity of individual voices. Is there any truth in this? To be fair, other reviews claim the sound is excellent. Clarity of each voice is obviously important in the more densely contrapuntal works so it would be useful to hear what others think about this before I pull the trigger on Koopman's set.

I never thought that was a problem. Sure, Koopman is notorious for high speeds and lots of ornamentation in resonant rooms on full plenums, a seemingly surefire recipe for muddied contrapuntal lines. But he somehow pulls it off - that is, most of the time.

Case in point: the fugue of BWV 564, played on the Schnitger organ in Hamburg, a yuuge Baroque organ in a large, resonant room, on a breakneck speed with a 16' plenum. You hear chords more than counterpoint (that's a characteristic of this fugue anyways), but the overall effect is joyous, magnificent, and beautiful. It's probably my favorite version of the fugue, and came as a shock when I first heard it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCMR9As5gs0

I think he exemplifies the understanding that Bach's music is (gasp) not all about displaying counterpoint - it's also about rhetoric and affekt. Counterpoint here is a means, not the end. So even if he's no Walcha when it comes to highlighting the counterpoint, he excels in the overall effect of the piece, if that's what you tend to listen for. You won't think that the lines are too blurred or anything unless you insist on hearing them with absolute clarity in a room that's dry as dust - but then, there's a reason why we don't build organs in dead rooms.
(although there are some central German organs that Bach knew well in very dry-sounding churches, such as the Trost in Altenberg)

(Surprise: he also plays the trio sonatas on the Hamburg organ, sometimes with full plenum, with quite good results)

Of course, if you're all for hearing the counterpoint, go for e.g. Walcha, Foccroulle, Weinberger etc., who have much cleaner lines.
Koopman's more for the main overall effect.

But try it out for yourself. I think the fugues in here (potentially along parts of the CU III/Orgelbüchlein) is as "muddy" as it gets. See if you can take it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D1zlB9hY8U
Lots of parts of the set is on youtube, so you can try before you buy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9Zcl8lKOgc
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 28, 2017, 02:31:22 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 27, 2017, 07:25:21 AM
This (2nd) Walcha set isn't just Alkmaar, but also the Silbermann Organ of the St.-Pierre-le-Jeune in Strasbourg.
The Alkmaar pieces were recorded earlier (1959-1963). Strasbourg sounds better, but Alkmaar has got the more expressive organ IMO.

Ah yes the 564 fugue has good sound, and indeed some surprising registrations.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mr. Minnow on May 28, 2017, 03:33:49 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on May 27, 2017, 11:18:38 PM
I never thought that was a problem. Sure, Koopman is notorious for high speeds and lots of ornamentation in resonant rooms on full plenums, a seemingly surefire recipe for muddied contrapuntal lines. But he somehow pulls it off - that is, most of the time.

Case in point: the fugue of BWV 564, played on the Schnitger organ in Hamburg, a yuuge Baroque organ in a large, resonant room, on a breakneck speed with a 16' plenum. You hear chords more than counterpoint (that's a characteristic of this fugue anyways), but the overall effect is joyous, magnificent, and beautiful. It's probably my favorite version of the fugue, and came as a shock when I first heard it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCMR9As5gs0

I think he exemplifies the understanding that Bach's music is (gasp) not all about displaying counterpoint - it's also about rhetoric and affekt. Counterpoint here is a means, not the end. So even if he's no Walcha when it comes to highlighting the counterpoint, he excels in the overall effect of the piece, if that's what you tend to listen for. You won't think that the lines are too blurred or anything unless you insist on hearing them with absolute clarity in a room that's dry as dust - but then, there's a reason why we don't build organs in dead rooms.
(although there are some central German organs that Bach knew well in very dry-sounding churches, such as the Trost in Altenberg)

(Surprise: he also plays the trio sonatas on the Hamburg organ, sometimes with full plenum, with quite good results)

Of course, if you're all for hearing the counterpoint, go for e.g. Walcha, Foccroulle, Weinberger etc., who have much cleaner lines.
Koopman's more for the main overall effect.

But try it out for yourself. I think the fugues in here (potentially along parts of the CU III/Orgelbüchlein) is as "muddy" as it gets. See if you can take it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D1zlB9hY8U
Lots of parts of the set is on youtube, so you can try before you buy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9Zcl8lKOgc

Thanks for the reply. I just dipped into the fugues on the YT link and the clarity didn't sound too bad at all. Maybe a little less distinct in the last fugue, but still, not what those Amazon reviews suggested.

When I read those reviews I remembered listening to some samples from a Brilliant Classics reissue of some old performances (as in from around the early 70s) of Renaissance polyphony which were riddled with a really heavy vibrato. You can imagine what that did to the clarity of each line - it really did sound like a lumpen mess and about as far as you can get from performances by ensembles such as Cappella Pratensis, Stimmwerck etc.. I wondered if Koopman's Bach might be like that but if the clarity on that YT link is as "bad" as it gets then it should be fine.   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 05, 2017, 07:25:18 PM
Quote from: milk on April 08, 2017, 01:15:56 AM
What do folks think of this?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Dh_N6HPjwOA/VVcv0z-8USI/AAAAAAAADC4/zPeqvq9zfwc/s1600/untitled.png)

I have been listnening this for a few weeks, and I like it. He does not have a great dexterity, and the recording sound is just OK. But there is something I like. I like his selection as well.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 20, 2017, 10:59:09 AM
Copying from the Purchases Today thread:


Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 16, 2017, 06:03:30 PM
Too bad Vernet's set is priced as if it's gold plated platinum...
If you are interested in a second set, the Hanssler set is good value for the money. Unless you can in fact find a copy of Vernet that is not priced like gold plated platinum.

Okay, emerged from my hunt for a second Bach organ set (utilizing YouTube to its fullest) with very favorable impressions of several organists: Weinberger, Kooiman et al (their respective parts on the Silbermann set), Alain, Bowyer, Vernet, Isoir, Chapuis, and who knows who else. But one organist stood out for me as a clear favorite: Vernet.

My initial impressions of Vernet were confirmed the more I heard: Vernet is more on the extrovert side compared to Foccroulle, but not lacking in subtlety, with a winning freshness. Foccroulle is still king of the king of instruments in Bach for me, but I'm looking forward to Vernet eagerly.

AND...in a spectacular stroke of luck, Vernet's set has just been reissued (in May)! It's not available in the States so far as I can tell, but it's available at a very attractive price from some of the European Amazons. With the exchange rate FINALLY evening out I snatched up a copy from AmazonDE for $39 US shipped!

Copious tips of the beret, Jeffrey!

https://www.amazon.de/Bach-Ouvre-Orgue-Olivier-Vernet/dp/B06XHSK2HP/ref=pd_sim_15_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=1EVWB4Z2954PMXTAE4RX



(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5117lDk0O8L._SY355_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on August 20, 2017, 06:02:56 PM
Well Hurrah! And well done!

Now everyone else needs to grab it before it goes OOP again!

Too bad they didn't use the wierd cover art of the first set, with Frederick the Great chasing after Augustus of Saxony/Poland and JSB looming godlike above them. Can't have everything.

But wait a sec....that Amazon listing says it is five CDs! The original set had 19 (it included some supplemental discs such as the concertos for multiple keyboards performed on portable organs).  This may only be a highlights set. (Or Amazon made another mistake.)  Although even if it is just a selection, it's still a good purchase.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 20, 2017, 07:22:19 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 20, 2017, 06:02:56 PM
Too bad they didn't use the wierd cover art of the first set, with Frederick the Great chasing after Augustus of Saxony/Poland and JSB looming godlike above them. Can't have everything.

That is a silly cover! Had me grinning. :D

QuoteBut wait a sec....that Amazon listing says it is five CDs! The original set had 19 (it included some supplemental discs such as the concertos for multiple keyboards performed on portable organs).  This may only be a highlights set. (Or Amazon made another mistake.)  Although even if it is just a selection, it's still a good purchase.

It looks like 15 on the front of the box, though. I guess I'll find out when it arrives!

EDIT: AmazonFR gives samples of all 15 discs! Yahoo!

https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B06XHSK2HP/ref=s9u_simh_gw_i1?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B06XHSK2HP&pd_rd_r=FQKDBV7HBMA34YYSDSP1&pd_rd_w=I4vql&pd_rd_wg=tjmGS&pf_rd_m=A1X6FK5RDHNB96&pf_rd_s=&pf_rd_r=PFDE4A12SZPJBGB8DSD8&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=a165becc-deda-4bed-878f-57fe722c3c75&pf_rd_i=desktop
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on August 20, 2017, 07:30:11 PM
Yes North Star corrected me in the Purchases Thread.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 20, 2017, 07:43:02 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 20, 2017, 07:30:11 PM
Yes North Star corrected me in the Purchases Thread.

Whew...I can breath again. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 22, 2017, 11:25:17 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 20, 2017, 07:22:19 PM
That is a silly cover! Had me grinnging. :D


Me, too! [Quote adjusted]
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on August 22, 2017, 11:29:34 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 17, 2017, 09:47:44 PM
The Clavier-Übung 3 and the Ricercar from BWV 1079 are played on the historical Gabler organ in Weingarten, a rather famous one and, for this set, beautifully recorded by the Calliope team.
The Leipzig Chorales are played on the ('modern baroque') Westenfelder organ in Fère-en-Tardenois, France.

To me, the entire set has its goods and its 'bads'. Like Herrick for the British, Isoir is the most poetic of the French 'integralists'. Sometimes it works for me, sometimes it doesn't. But it's certainly a nice set to have and there's plenty to enjoy.

See, that is what I wanted to hear. It is in my possession, and I will start listening to it in the foreseeable future. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on August 22, 2017, 11:32:02 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 20, 2017, 10:59:09 AM
Copying from the Purchases Today thread:


Okay, emerged from my hunt for a second Bach organ set (utilizing YouTube to its fullest) with very favorable impressions of several organists: Weinberger, Kooiman et al (their respective parts on the Silbermann set), Alain, Bowyer, Vernet, Isoir, Chapuis, and who knows who else. But one organist stood out for me as a clear favorite: Vernet.

My initial impressions of Vernet were confirmed the more I heard: Vernet is more on the extrovert side compared to Foccroulle, but not lacking in subtlety, with a winning freshness. Foccroulle is still king of the king of instruments in Bach for me, but I'm looking forward to Vernet eagerly.

AND...in a spectacular stroke of luck, Vernet's set has just been reissued (in May)! It's not available in the States so far as I can tell, but it's available at a very attractive price from some of the European Amazons. With the exchange rate FINALLY evening out I snatched up a copy from AmazonDE for $39 US shipped!

Copious tips of the beret, Jeffrey!

https://www.amazon.de/Bach-Ouvre-Orgue-Olivier-Vernet/dp/B06XHSK2HP/ref=pd_sim_15_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=1EVWB4Z2954PMXTAE4RX



(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5117lDk0O8L._SY355_.jpg)

Vernet is indeed extrovert, but in a special way.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on August 22, 2017, 11:38:26 PM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on May 27, 2017, 05:08:27 PM
A question for those who have Koopman's set: I just noticed that several Amazon reviews complain about a lack of clarity of individual voices. Is there any truth in this? To be fair, other reviews claim the sound is excellent. Clarity of each voice is obviously important in the more densely contrapuntal works so it would be useful to hear what others think about this before I pull the trigger on Koopman's set.

Koopman was always the odd one out in the Netherlands, for his sometimes eccentric playing style. Always on the fast side, he rarely lets the music breathe at it's own tempo. He is the man of effect rather than affect. For me when he plays at full plenum I perceive chaos and miss almost all details. What I am saying is, he is an acquired taste, either you like him or not, there is no inbetween.
I get rather nervous listening to him, and get irritated by the many freedoms he allows himself.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 23, 2017, 09:32:29 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on August 22, 2017, 11:38:26 PM
Koopman was always the odd one out in the Netherlands, for his sometimes eccentric playing style. Always on the fast side, he rarely lets the music breathe at it's own tempo. He is the man of effect rather than affect. For me when he plays at full plenum I perceive chaos and miss almost all details. What I am saying is, he is an acquired taste, either you like him or not, there is no inbetween.
I get rather nervous listening to him, and get irritated by the many freedoms he allows himself.

To me, Koopman is a hit or miss, in other words a in-between. (Sorry, Harry.)

I generally appreciate his playing in the chorale-based works, but his overly energetic approach of the free works can be tiresome indeed. Especially when, as in his Teldec integral, the grouping is rather strictly genre-based. It's heavy stuff already to listen to a 70+ minutes disc or recital of only free works in plenum registration by any other more relaxed organist, let alone by Ton ADHD Koopman himself.
But really, I think there is much too enjoy in the chorale stuff. I've heard him play live more than once, and I've heard beautiful renderings of f.i. "An Wasserflüßen Babylon" BWV 653, "Schmücke dich, o liebe Seele" BWV 654, "O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig" BWV 656 and "Ich ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ" BWV 639. These works, and a lot of other chorales, are also very convincing IMHO on his DG/Novalis/Teldec recordings.

At home, when I decide to listen to a Koopman/Bach organ disc, it's mostly a 'combined' disc of the unfinished Novalis (later Brilliant Classics) cycle. All 6 volumes are presented in 'recital' style, i.c. free and chorale works mixed, and I really enjoy all of them. Like the first disc, with a spectacular and fast BWV 542, followed up by three very well played chorales BWV 659, 645 and 639.

I.c. the freedom he allows himself (with tempi and ornamentation): he firmly believes that's the imaginative way to play baroque keyboard music, either it being Bach or someone else. And he believes that historical sources prove him right. (Plenty of other musicians and scholars think otherwise, but, hey, that's nothing new.)

One of my main 'problems' with Koopman's live organ recitals was, that he didn't seem to care about the variety of church acoustics and reverberation. Tempi were always (more or less) the same. And his hands and fingers sometimes didn't manage to keep up with the tempi he apparently had in mind. Which led to complete chaos in f.i. Bach's Passacaglia, a couple of years ago in Groningen's Martinikerk.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 23, 2017, 03:03:28 PM
Quote from: Harry's corner on August 22, 2017, 11:32:02 PM
Vernet is indeed extrovert, but in a special way.

I'm anxious to hear this set. Can't wait!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 23, 2017, 09:22:13 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 23, 2017, 03:03:28 PM
I'm anxious to hear this set. Can't wait!

It's not my favourite boxset, but it's good 'fun'.
I saw the reissue has got 15 cds, which means that the former 4 bonus discs have gone (a.o. his first disc of 1988, and a disc with transcriptions of harpsichord concertos (together with a.o. Marie-Claire Alain)). It's a pity, but... the 15 disc set is still very enjoyable'. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Drosera on August 23, 2017, 09:56:53 PM
Quote from: Marc on August 23, 2017, 09:22:13 PM
It's not my favourite boxset, but it's good 'fun'.
I saw the reissue has got 15 cds, which means that the former 4 bonus discs have gone (a.o. his first disc of 1988, and a disc with transcriptions of harpsichord concertos (together with a.o. Marie-Claire Alain)). It's a pity, but... the 15 disc set is still very enjoyable'. :)

Actually, at least the latter have been reissued as well:

(https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18922790_10154520716475868_8412425600151090731_o.jpg?oh=dc70fead85e4d6fc72307934f7454779&oe=5A31C9CD)

Couldn't find it on Amazon yet, but it is already on Spotify.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 24, 2017, 12:28:25 AM
Quote from: Drosera on August 23, 2017, 09:56:53 PM
Actually, at least the latter have been reissued as well:

(https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18922790_10154520716475868_8412425600151090731_o.jpg?oh=dc70fead85e4d6fc72307934f7454779&oe=5A31C9CD)
[...]

I see.

Divide et merera. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on August 24, 2017, 12:35:14 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 23, 2017, 09:22:13 PM
It's not my favourite boxset, but it's good 'fun'.
I saw the reissue has got 15 cds, which means that the former 4 bonus discs have gone (a.o. his first disc of 1988, and a disc with transcriptions of harpsichord concertos (together with a.o. Marie-Claire Alain)). It's a pity, but... the 15 disc set is still very enjoyable'. :)

I never understood the fascination for Marie Claire Allan, A set, well all the sets she recorded, sound for me so unlike Bach, and more like Alain. I dislike her playing, and her ego on top of the music.
So having the 15 cd box I do not regret that the additional cd's are not in there. ;)
I probably have to move to my bomb shelter in the garden to avoid all the abuse that will follow after this opinion. :laugh:
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on August 24, 2017, 12:36:27 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 23, 2017, 09:32:29 AM
To me, Koopman is a hit or miss, in other words a in-between. (Sorry, Harry.)

I generally appreciate his playing in the chorale-based works, but his overly energetic approach of the free works can be tiresome indeed. Especially when, as in his Teldec integral, the grouping is rather strictly genre-based. It's heavy stuff already to listen to a 70+ minutes disc or recital of only free works in plenum registration by any other more relaxed organist, let alone by Ton ADHD Koopman himself.
But really, I think there is much too enjoy in the chorale stuff. I've heard him play live more than once, and I've heard beautiful renderings of f.i. "An Wasserflüßen Babylon" BWV 653, "Schmücke dich, o liebe Seele" BWV 654, "O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig" BWV 656 and "Ich ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ" BWV 639. These works, and a lot of other chorales, are also very convincing IMHO on his DG/Novalis/Teldec recordings.

At home, when I decide to listen to a Koopman/Bach organ disc, it's mostly a 'combined' disc of the unfinished Novalis (later Brilliant Classics) cycle. All 6 volumes are presented in 'recital' style, i.c. free and chorale works mixed, and I really enjoy all of them. Like the first disc, with a spectacular and fast BWV 542, followed up by three very well played chorales BWV 659, 645 and 639.

I.c. the freedom he allows himself (with tempi and ornamentation): he firmly believes that's the imaginative way to play baroque keyboard music, either it being Bach or someone else. And he believes that historical sources prove him right. (Plenty of other musicians and scholars think otherwise, but, hey, that's nothing new.)

One of my main 'problems' with Koopman's live organ recitals was, that he didn't seem to care about the variety of church acoustics and reverberation. Tempi were always (more or less) the same. And his hands and fingers sometimes didn't manage to keep up with the tempi he apparently had in mind. Which led to complete chaos in f.i. Bach's Passacaglia, a couple of years ago in Groningen's Martinikerk.

That is quite alright my friend, I know many that like Koopman's approach, but it's simply not for me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on August 24, 2017, 12:37:54 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 23, 2017, 09:22:13 PM
It's not my favourite boxset, but it's good 'fun'.
I saw the reissue has got 15 cds, which means that the former 4 bonus discs have gone (a.o. his first disc of 1988, and a disc with transcriptions of harpsichord concertos (together with a.o. Marie-Claire Alain)). It's a pity, but... the 15 disc set is still very enjoyable'. :)

Vernet is certainly in my Top 5. ;D

I played some Bach on the Krewerd organ, and although the music came out alright, the renaissance organ did not like it, so better some Scheidemann.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 24, 2017, 12:56:10 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on August 24, 2017, 12:37:54 AM
[...]
I played some Bach on the Kantens organ, and although the music came out alright, the renaissance organ did not like it, so better some Scheidemann.

You lucky lucky... ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 24, 2017, 01:54:01 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on August 24, 2017, 12:35:14 AM
I never understood the fascination for Marie Claire Allan, A set, well all the sets she recorded, sound for me so unlike Bach, and more like Alain. I dislike her playing, and her ego on top of the music.
So having the 15 cd box I do not regret that the additional cd's are not in there. ;)

I'm not fascinated by the late Marie-Claire, but yes, I do like her JS Bach (and some other stuff, too). And actually I consider her approach rather objective and non-idiosyncratic, compared to many others (a.o. Vernet, who has a much more personal approach IMO).
Funny how taste and reception can differ.

Quote from: Harry's corner
I probably have to move to my bomb shelter in the garden to avoid all the abuse that will follow after this opinion. :laugh:

Nah, I'm not the bomb throwing type of guy.
But if you were a friend of mine, I'd poison your tea.

:P ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on August 24, 2017, 01:59:01 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 24, 2017, 01:54:01 AM
I'm not fascinated by the late Marie-Claire, but yes, I do like her JS Bach (and some other stuff, too). And actually I consider her approach rather objective and non-idiosyncratic, compared to many others (a.o. Vernet, who has a much more personal approach IMO).
Funny how taste and reception can differ.

Nah, I'm not the bomb throwing type of guy.
But if you were a friend of mine, I'd poison your tea.

:P ;)

Ik ga dus geen thee met jou drinken, dat zul je begrijpen. $:)
I did not express myself well in regard to Alain. I appreciate a personal approach, but I never was able to accept Alain's. And yes taste and reception differ, and the logic in it is a mystery.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 24, 2017, 02:09:09 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on August 24, 2017, 01:59:01 AM
Ik ga dus geen thee met jou drinken, dat zul je begrijpen. $:)

Dan moet het maar een biertje worden. :D

Btw, I was referring to a (spurious) conversation between Lady Nancy Astor and Sir Winston Churchill.
"Sir, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea."
"Madam, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."

Quote from: Harry's corner on August 24, 2017, 01:59:01 AM
I did not express myself well in regard to Alain. I appreciate a personal approach, but I never was able to accept Alain's. And yes taste and reception differ, and the logic in it is a mystery.

The logic in it is a mystery.
I'll remember that one.
Could be a very fine summary to describe Bach's (organ) works. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 24, 2017, 04:49:43 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 22, 2017, 11:25:17 PM
Me, too! [Quote adjusted]

Jet, did you perhaps mean Cringing? I'm sure there's a funny there but I can't quite make it out.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on August 24, 2017, 11:40:42 AM
Quote from: Drosera on August 23, 2017, 09:56:53 PM
Actually, at least the latter have been reissued as well:

(https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18922790_10154520716475868_8412425600151090731_o.jpg?oh=dc70fead85e4d6fc72307934f7454779&oe=5A31C9CD)

Couldn't find it on Amazon yet, but it is already on Spotify.

The physical CD version is available through the European Amazons. The US Amazon has it only as a download.
I do thoroughly recommend it. The four extra CDs are a different approach to Bach, and I enjoyed them all.

As for Alain herself--I have what's usually called Alain II. The freeform works are good, but I had the feeling the chorales were churned out to meet a contractual obligation. Definitely not a favorite set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 24, 2017, 01:58:31 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 24, 2017, 04:49:43 AM
Jet, did you perhaps mean Cringing? I'm sure there's a funny there but I can't quite make it out.

Of course, I did. Plain bumble-headed of me.  :(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 24, 2017, 03:37:33 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 24, 2017, 01:58:31 PM
Of course, I did. Plain bumble-headed of me.  :(

0:) :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 25, 2017, 01:54:06 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 12, 2012, 10:16:03 AM
As you may expect I agree with you in this.
A propos Bach and Gravitas: I own a recording of BWV 565 by Gabor Lehotka on a historical organ in Sopron, Hungary. The organ is a 4ft organ and listening to this you suddenly understand that the parallel octaves in the toccata was written in this way to add some gravitas and to make the organ sound bigger.
Listening to his recordings, and I like them. Not a sharp performance, but there is a nostalgic feel.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 25, 2017, 11:11:41 PM
(https://france-orgue.fr/disque/img_cd_sz/_w150/cd_23894.jpg)

Juan de la Rubia plays Bach at Poblet (Spain), a Metzler organ and a very very interesting one - worth hearing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 26, 2017, 03:20:40 AM
FYI: Bach Organ Survey updated with re-issue of Vernet and a few other details. A Survey of Bach Organ Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 26, 2017, 08:26:10 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 24, 2017, 04:49:43 AM
Jet, did you perhaps mean Cringing? I'm sure there's a funny there but I can't quite make it out.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 24, 2017, 01:58:31 PM
Of course, I did. Plain bumble-headed of me.  :(

Actually, the more I think about it, Gringing is a very sustainable amalgam of cringing and grinning. You know, as in the jokes we fight within ourselves not to laugh at ("that's just wrong") all the while we're grinning from ear-to-ear. Gringing.

So I'd say you've inadvertently coined a winning new 21st century word, Jet. There may be some gringing involved during the lexicon break-in period but this too shall pass.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 26, 2017, 02:03:04 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 26, 2017, 08:26:10 AM
Actually, the more I think about it, Gringing is a very sustainable amalgam of cringing and grinning. You know, as in the jokes we fight within ourselves not to laugh at ("that's just wrong") all the while we're grinning from ear-to-ear. Gringing.

So I'd say you've inadvertently coined a winning new 21st-century word, Jet. There may be some gringing involved during the lexicon break-in period but this too shall pass.

We're onto something. It's exactly what my wife does, when I have punned and it's not awful enough to cringe outright.  ;D

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 26, 2017, 02:27:53 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 26, 2017, 02:03:04 PM
We're onto something. It's exactly what my wife does, when I have punned and it's not awful enough to cringe outright.  ;D

;D ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: king ubu on August 31, 2017, 01:29:13 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 24, 2017, 11:40:42 AM
The physical CD version is available through the European Amazons. The US Amazon has it only as a download.
I do thoroughly recommend it. The four extra CDs are a different approach to Bach, and I enjoyed them all.

Hmmm ... got my box now, and got this disc separately a few days before:

(https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18922790_10154520716475868_8412425600151090731_o.jpg?oh=dc70fead85e4d6fc72307934f7454779&oe=5A31C9CD)

... and lo and behold, the box contains a coupon with which you can order a free copy of this. Couldn't they have told me about that in advance, please?!?  :o
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 31, 2017, 07:18:23 AM
Quote from: king ubu on August 31, 2017, 01:29:13 AM
Hmmm ... got my box now, and got this disc separately a few days before:

(https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18922790_10154520716475868_8412425600151090731_o.jpg?oh=dc70fead85e4d6fc72307934f7454779&oe=5A31C9CD)

... and lo and behold, the box contains a coupon with which you can order a free copy of this. Couldn't they have told me about that in advance, please?!?  :o

Just order it for your dearest (friend). 0:) ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 05, 2017, 07:56:00 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5117lDk0O8L._SY355_.jpg)


Landed today. The first thing of note is the beautiful presentation, with the outer box much more hardy and stylish than the dull Amazon image conveys, with a slip-off top. 

The second thing of note is the colorful insides, with the sleeves color-coordinated in rainbow-like shades of the red/purple/blue spectrum.

The third thing of note is the French-only booklet, though thankfully the notes are available in English via emailing Ligia: ligia-digital@sfr.fr.

The fourth thing of note is how physically shaken I was by the jaw-dropping beauty of the music. Not to mention the organ (Gérald Guillemin, Chavagnes, 1988) is a stunner, with Vernet lightening it up for all the music's worth. As disc 1 came to a close (all 65 minutes of it) I was very nearly in a state of euphoric overload.

The fifth thing of note is my box also includes that coupon for the free organ concertos set. However, it remains to be seen if Ligia will deliver to the US. Crossing my fingers.

(The sixth thing of note is I will be tipping my hat to Jeffrey Smith from now until time ends :))
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on September 05, 2017, 10:16:44 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 05, 2017, 07:56:00 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5117lDk0O8L._SY355_.jpg)


Landed today. The first thing of note is the beautiful presentation, with the outer box much more hardy and stylish than the dull Amazon image conveys, with a slip-off top. 

The second thing of note is the colorful insides, with the sleeves color-coordinated in rainbow-like shades of the red/purple/blue spectrum.

The third thing of note is the French-only booklet, though thankfully the notes are available in English on the Ligia website.

The fourth thing of note is how physically shaken I was by the jaw-dropping beauty of the music. Not to mention the organ (Gérald Guillemin, Chavagnes, 1988) is a stunner, with Vernet lightening it up for all the music's worth. As disc 1 came to a close (all 65 minutes of it) I was very nearly in a state of euphoric overload.

The fifth thing of note is my box also includes that coupon for the free organ concertos set. However, it remains to be seen if Ligia will deliver to the US. Crossing my fingers.

(The sixth thing of note is I will be tipping my hat to Jeffrey Smith for now until time ends :))

That was exactly the same reaction I had to Vernet's playing, when the first disc started to spin in my player.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 05, 2017, 10:27:18 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 05, 2017, 07:56:00 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5117lDk0O8L._SY355_.jpg)


Landed today. The first thing of note is the beautiful presentation, with the outer box much more hardy and stylish than the dull Amazon image conveys, with a slip-off top. 

The second thing of note is the colorful insides, with the sleeves color-coordinated in rainbow-like shades of the red/purple/blue spectrum.

The third thing of note is the French-only booklet, though thankfully the notes are available in English on the Ligia website.

The fourth thing of note is how physically shaken I was by the jaw-dropping beauty of the music. Not to mention the organ (Gérald Guillemin, Chavagnes, 1988) is a stunner, with Vernet lightening it up for all the music's worth. As disc 1 came to a close (all 65 minutes of it) I was very nearly in a state of euphoric overload.

The fifth thing of note is my box also includes that coupon for the free organ concertos set. However, it remains to be seen if Ligia will deliver to the US. Crossing my fingers.

(The sixth thing of note is I will be tipping my hat to Jeffrey Smith for now until time ends :))

What a neat reaction! Makes me want to pull my set from the shelves. But funnily, I never had the same revelatory experience with the first few discs in the set and only warmed up to it a few discs in, so I'm wondering if you could tell me, which order the works come in, in this re-release. (Or simply what's on that first disc.)

Meanwhile:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJBn0LLXoAAzEYS.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Bach on @capricciorec

http://a-fwd.to/79U9YIF

Trio Sonatas w/Holm Vogel, East Germany's o... http://ift.tt/2f2iq1C
(http://a-fwd.to/79U9YIF)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIy2ArVW4AAbnB1.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Bach on @capricciorec w/Matthias Eisenberg

http://a-fwd.to/8X57HlR

#organMusic #historica... http://ift.tt/2xGG23j
(http://a-fwd.to/8X57HlR)

and

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_iLWkaXUAQKGsg.jpg:large)
#morninglistening to #Bach on @outheremusic's #Ricercar label:http://a-fwd.to/3U1Qckj

#bernardfoccroulle playing ... http://ift.tt/2quLy8K
(http://a-fwd.to/3U1Qckj)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: kishnevi on September 06, 2017, 05:23:55 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 05, 2017, 07:56:00 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5117lDk0O8L._SY355_.jpg)


Landed today. The first thing of note is the beautiful presentation, with the outer box much more hardy and stylish than the dull Amazon image conveys, with a slip-off top. 

The second thing of note is the colorful insides, with the sleeves color-coordinated in rainbow-like shades of the red/purple/blue spectrum.

The third thing of note is the French-only booklet, though thankfully the notes are available in English on the Ligia website.

The fourth thing of note is how physically shaken I was by the jaw-dropping beauty of the music. Not to mention the organ (Gérald Guillemin, Chavagnes, 1988) is a stunner, with Vernet lightening it up for all the music's worth. As disc 1 came to a close (all 65 minutes of it) I was very nearly in a state of euphoric overload.

The fifth thing of note is my box also includes that coupon for the free organ concertos set. However, it remains to be seen if Ligia will deliver to the US. Crossing my fingers.

(The sixth thing of note is I will be tipping my hat to Jeffrey Smith for now until time ends :))

😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 06, 2017, 06:21:45 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on September 05, 2017, 10:27:18 PM
What a neat reaction! Makes me want to pull my set from the shelves. But funnily, I never had the same revelatory experience with the first few discs in the set and only warmed up to it a few discs in, so I'm wondering if you could tell me, which order the works come in, in this re-release. (Or simply what's on that first disc.)

I'd like to oblige and give a track listing for the entire box but time isn't always on my side, my friend. :( However, as time goes by I'll try to add track listings on a disc-by-disc basis.

Anyway, below is the track listing for disc 1, with the BWVs implied for each listing:

766
1117
531
1104
568
1107
569
1095
551
570
696
697
698
699
700
703
704
767
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 06, 2017, 06:22:37 PM
Quote from: Harry's corner on September 05, 2017, 10:16:44 PM
That was exactly the same reaction I had to Vernet's playing, when the first disc started to spin in my player.  :)

Indeed, I can see why! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 06, 2017, 06:29:27 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 06, 2017, 05:23:55 PM
😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀



(http://blogs.perficient.com/integrate/files/2015/04/tip-hat-525x600.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 06, 2017, 10:01:47 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 06, 2017, 06:21:45 PM
I'd like to oblige and give a track listing for the entire box but time isn't always on my side, my friend. :( However, as time goes by I'll try to add track listings on a disc-by-disc basis.

Anyway, below is the track listing for disc 1, with the BWVs implied for each listing:

766
1117
531
1104
568
1107
569
1095
551
570
696
697
698
699
700
703
704
767

Which means that, as far as I can see, nothing has changed.

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Vernet.htm
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000038IDN

Glad to hear you like this set!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 06, 2017, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 06, 2017, 10:38:50 PM
It's inspiring to hear such a positive response like DD's and so I thought I'd check out two partitas on Vernet's CD1, 766 and 767, they're on different neo-baroque organs in France. The first things that lept out were the colours, lightness,  swinging rhythms, pace, and the generally cheerful feeling.

Yep.
From around 2009/2010, when I bought the (former) complete set, I especially remember the latter... after listening to the first couple of Vernet discs (which, in my case, were the 1988 Montélimar recording and the first disc of the official integral), I felt GOOD.
Even though I feel pretty good right now, I should relisten to the bloke soon.
:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 06, 2017, 10:50:13 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 06, 2017, 06:21:45 PM
I'd like to oblige and give a track listing for the entire box but time isn't always on my side, my friend. :( However, as time goes by I'll try to add track listings on a disc-by-disc basis.

Anyway, below is the track listing for disc 1, with the BWVs implied for each listing:

766, 1117 etc.

That's plenty. Thanks much! Yes, same order as the original, then. Well, into the player it goes! (After I'm through with another of the Leipzig Bach Edition CDs.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 06, 2017, 11:32:57 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 06, 2017, 10:49:12 PM
, I should relisten to the bloke soon.
:)

I saw him play French baroque music and maybe some Liszt in Frejus once, met him afterwards, nice guy, forgettable performance, forgettable organ. After the concert I walked home to San Raphael and there was the most extraordinary storm en route. My friend called it a "rupture des cieux", which is a phrase which has always stuck in my mind, for all I know it's natural in French but it sounds so poetically pompous to me!  I got very very very wet.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 07, 2017, 04:36:59 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 06, 2017, 10:01:47 PM
Which means that, as far as I can see, nothing has changed.

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Vernet.htm
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000038IDN

The Amazon listing has it right for all fifteen discs. So, yes, the reissue is an exact duplicate of the original(?) issue. But one oddity: that linked Amazon issue has a different cover than the one I've seen previously, the cover that has us all gringing:



(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2Bak1DK6tL._SY355_.jpg)

Although the gringing box has all nineteen discs (and a published date of 2008) as opposed to fifteen. Since the linked issue has a published date of 1999 I wonder if the gringing box is actually a prior reissue?


QuoteGlad to hear you like this set!

It'll be interesting as time goes by comparing Vernet's set to Foccroulle's. I am very much looking forward to that...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 07, 2017, 07:46:52 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5117lDk0O8L._SY355_.jpg)



Disc 3...the ability to startle is again off the charts...half in a daze.............
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 07, 2017, 11:14:08 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 07, 2017, 04:36:59 PM
Although the gringing box has all nineteen discs (and a published date of 2008) as opposed to fifteen. Since the linked issue has a published date of 1999 I wonder if the gringing box is actually a prior reissue?

Yes.
In 2009, in a local cd shop, the gringing boxset was grinning to me at budget-price. I was grinning both because of the cover and because of the price, and whilst listening back home I was grinning even more.
This partical reissue disappeared from the catalogue rather quickly afterwards, if I remember well (with a few exceptions on the internet, of course).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on September 07, 2017, 11:44:11 PM
My gringing box, despite what is said about 19 cd's, holds only 15. Must be a later release with the same cover, when they decided to take 4 discs out.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 08, 2017, 12:11:50 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on September 07, 2017, 11:44:11 PM
My gringing box, despite what is said about 19 cd's, holds only 15. Must be a later release with the same cover, when they decided to take 4 discs out.

Or they sold you that partical set for a particular reason: to make sure that there was no Marie-Claire to annoy you. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on September 08, 2017, 12:14:38 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 08, 2017, 12:11:50 AM
Or they sold you that partical set for a particular reason: to make sure that there was no Marie-Claire to annoy you. ;)

I always appreciated a man that can see through the mists of confusion :laugh:
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 08, 2017, 01:07:04 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 07, 2017, 04:36:59 PM
Although the gringing box has all nineteen discs (and a published date of 2008) as opposed to fifteen. Since the linked issue has a published date of 1999 I wonder if the gringing box is actually a prior reissue?

The original issue of the first 15 CDs was in 3 CDs jewelboxes. I own four of these.
Two (Clavierübung 0 and the one with Alain) of the four other CDs (19 minus 15) were released individually. I do not know about the rest, but probably they were released individually too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 08, 2017, 01:20:54 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on September 08, 2017, 12:14:38 AM
I always appreciated a man that can see through the mists of confusion :laugh:

Heartily recommended: Marc the Fog Horn. 8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 08, 2017, 02:05:17 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJMT9mNXoAADas5.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Bach on @capricciorec w/Felix Friedrich

http://a-fwd.to/3G6r15z

on the @resischlossaltb organ by Tobias Heinrich Gottfried Trost.

Includes a terrific #PreludeAndFugue #BWV552 ("St. Anne"). Love the whole series. Too bad it only extends to five CDs.
(http://a-fwd.to/3G6r15z)

My gringing-Box contains the whole chalupa - and with room for at least four, five more CDs, despite the big (awkwardly arranged) booklet. It's "Lidi 0104190-08, distributed by Harmonia Mundi. HM15x19. Latest copyright on it 2007... but that's from the last work recorded on it (disc 19, transcription of the Ciaccona) not from the publishing of the box. Oh, and for bragging-purposes I am showing off Vernet's signature on my box, which I got after a concert of his at the Wiener Konzerthaus.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 09, 2017, 06:58:57 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 07, 2017, 11:14:08 PM
Yes.
In 2009, in a local cd shop, the gringing boxset was grinning to me at budget-price. I was grinning both because of the cover and because of the price, and whilst listening back home I was grinning even more.
This partical reissue disappeared from the catalogue rather quickly afterwards, if I remember well (with a few exceptions on the internet, of course).

Thanks for the info and, err...grins... :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 09, 2017, 07:00:50 PM
Quote from: Harry's corner on September 07, 2017, 11:44:11 PM
My gringing box, despite what is said about 19 cd's, holds only 15. Must be a later release with the same cover, when they decided to take 4 discs out.

Quote from: (: premont :) on September 08, 2017, 01:07:04 AM
The original issue of the first 15 CDs was in 3 CDs jewelboxes. I own four of these.
Two (Clavierübung 0 and the one with Alain) of the four other CDs (19 minus 15) were released individually. I do not know about the rest, but probably they were released individually too.

Cheers Harry & premont!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 09, 2017, 07:03:52 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on September 08, 2017, 02:05:17 AMOh, and for bragging-purposes I am showing off Vernet's signature on my box, which I got after a concert of his at the Wiener Konzerthaus.

Nice!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 16, 2017, 07:38:58 PM
Would you please post the link to the note in English? Thank you.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 05, 2017, 07:56:00 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5117lDk0O8L._SY355_.jpg)


Landed today. The first thing of note is the beautiful presentation, with the outer box much more hardy and stylish than the dull Amazon image conveys, with a slip-off top. 

The second thing of note is the colorful insides, with the sleeves color-coordinated in rainbow-like shades of the red/purple/blue spectrum.

The third thing of note is the French-only booklet, though thankfully the notes are available in English on the Ligia website.

The fourth thing of note is how physically shaken I was by the jaw-dropping beauty of the music. Not to mention the organ (Gérald Guillemin, Chavagnes, 1988) is a stunner, with Vernet lightening it up for all the music's worth. As disc 1 came to a close (all 65 minutes of it) I was very nearly in a state of euphoric overload.

The fifth thing of note is my box also includes that coupon for the free organ concertos set. However, it remains to be seen if Ligia will deliver to the US. Crossing my fingers.

(The sixth thing of note is I will be tipping my hat to Jeffrey Smith for now until time ends :))
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 16, 2017, 09:40:16 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on September 16, 2017, 07:38:58 PM
Would you please post the link to the note in English? Thank you.

Sorry, I made an error...Ligia has no website as far as I can tell. To get the notes in English it's necessary to email them: ligia-digital@sfr.fr.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: GioCar on September 16, 2017, 10:28:27 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 16, 2017, 09:40:16 PM
Sorry, I made an error...Ligia has no website as far as I can tell. To get the notes in English it's necessary to email them: ligia-digital@sfr.fr.

Well, I wan trying to get the notes as well, and I've actually found the Ligia website http://www.ligiadigital.com/ but no notes in it.
So thank you for the email address  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 17, 2017, 02:06:43 PM
Quote from: GioCar on September 16, 2017, 10:28:27 PM
Well, I wan trying to get the notes as well, and I've actually found the Ligia website http://www.ligiadigital.com/ but no notes in it.
So thank you for the email address  :)

Nice find! I looked all over and couldn't find their website at all. :-X 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mr. Minnow on October 26, 2017, 03:54:38 PM
Has anyone managed to get the English notes for the Vernet reissue from Ligia? I bought the set recently and e-mailed them but never received a reply.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mr. Minnow on October 26, 2017, 03:58:50 PM
I'd be interested in opinions on Weinberger's CPO set. Reviews of both the complete set and individual volumes seem to be very mixed indeed, both in terms of sound and performance quality. I know it's supposed to be ultra-complete, but the cheapest price I can find is 50 euros plus postage from JPC, so I wouldn't buy it for that alone. Do the high points outweigh the lows?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on October 26, 2017, 04:07:13 PM
I like it generally. Some pieces come off well, some less so. I don't know of any set where I like everything. I thing Weinberger's strength is clarity, rather than august sonorities.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 26, 2017, 05:05:19 PM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on October 26, 2017, 03:54:38 PM
Has anyone managed to get the English notes for the Vernet reissue from Ligia? I bought the set recently and e-mailed them but never received a reply.

For myself, I haven't made an attempt yet, but I have another set already so I haven't exactly worked up the enthusiasm to try. Also, since I don't speak/write French, if I eventually do make the attempt I'll have to rely on Google Translate. I wonder how well that will go over. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on October 26, 2017, 10:56:38 PM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on October 26, 2017, 03:58:50 PM
I'd be interested in opinions on Weinberger's CPO set. Reviews of both the complete set and individual volumes seem to be very mixed indeed, both in terms of sound and performance quality. I know it's supposed to be ultra-complete, but the cheapest price I can find is 50 euros plus postage from JPC, so I wouldn't buy it for that alone. Do the high points outweigh the lows?

I have listen to the Weinberger set thrice in the last two years and I can honestly say that the majority of it is a virtual delight. Hardly no moments of unease. It is a balanced feat between the spiritual and intellectual. Organs are all fantastic, and the sound is never any less than perfect. You may look at the reviews on my blog. Just type in Bach and Weinberger edition and you'll find the lot.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 27, 2017, 06:36:02 AM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on October 26, 2017, 03:58:50 PM
I'd be interested in opinions on Weinberger's CPO set. Reviews of both the complete set and individual volumes seem to be very mixed indeed, both in terms of sound and performance quality. I know it's supposed to be ultra-complete, but the cheapest price I can find is 50 euros plus postage from JPC, so I wouldn't buy it for that alone. Do the high points outweigh the lows?

If you put it like that: YES! Certainly. In fact, I don't think there are a lot of lows -- if any. It's just that some of the highs are not that high. It's never really sexy, in my mind, but when I opt for a CD from that box among all the others on the shelf, I'm never disappointed, after all and -- much like Harry -- delighted, instead.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on October 27, 2017, 07:35:14 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 27, 2017, 06:36:02 AM
If you put it like that: YES! Certainly. In fact, I don't think there are a lot of lows -- if any. It's just that some of the highs are not that high. It's never really sexy, in my mind, but when I opt for a CD from that box among all the others on the shelf, I'm never disappointed, after all and -- much like Harry -- delighted, instead.

Actually I think his playing can be very virile.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Parsifal on October 27, 2017, 07:36:20 AM
Who could imagine a universe in which people argue whether performance of Bach organ music is sexy or virile?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on October 27, 2017, 07:44:26 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 27, 2017, 07:36:20 AM
Who could imagine a universe in which people argue whether performance of Bach organ music is sexy or virile?

;D

I often see the word "virile" used about recordings or rather interpretations, but this is the first time I have seen the word "sexy" used, and I find it disproportionate in relation to music, and this caused my reaction above.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 27, 2017, 08:02:04 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 27, 2017, 07:44:26 AM
;D

I often see the word "virile" used about recordings or rather interpretations, but this is the first time I have seen the word "sexy" used, and I find it disproportionate in relation to music, and this caused my reaction above.

Well, I guess by "sexy" I mean in good part how I feel about it, in anticipation. I think of Richter's Bach as "sexy" -- ditto some of Alain's II and Rübsam I. I suppose an idea of lushness... even (horror: catholicism) comes into play. With Weinberger, Stockmeier et al, I don't have that feeling. But I understand your hesitating, coming across what is admittedly a sloppy description.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on October 27, 2017, 08:12:58 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 27, 2017, 08:02:04 AM
Well, I guess by "sexy" I mean in good part how I feel about it, in anticipation. I think of Richter's Bach as "sexy" -- ditto some of Alain's II and Rübsam I. I suppose an idea of lushness... even (horror: catholicism) comes into play. With Weinberger, Stockmeier et al, I don't have that feeling. But I understand your hesitating, coming across what is admittedly a sloppy description.

Concerning Rübsam I and Richter this is very much what I would - and did - call virile. More politically correct I would probably say energetic.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on October 27, 2017, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 27, 2017, 07:36:20 AM
Who could imagine a universe in which people argue whether performance of Bach organ music is sexy or virile?

For that, I only have to close my eyes...

Quote from: Marc on April 17, 2009, 10:48:23 PM
[...]
I'm still busy travelling on my organ quest. Maybe I'll turn into some kind of a Lancelot .... and who knows what fair maid is waiting for me! ;D

Let's dream on: entering the Oude Kerk in Delft, and listening to Scarlett Johansson (dressed as Griet from the movie Girl with a pearl earring) playing Bach on the organ. 8)

:P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on October 28, 2017, 06:17:09 AM
Quote from: Marc on October 27, 2017, 12:54:21 PM
For that, I only have to close my eyes...

:P

So it would be frustrating for you, if the performance in question was a real eye-opener?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on October 28, 2017, 06:26:28 AM
(* chortle *)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on October 28, 2017, 02:33:24 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 28, 2017, 06:17:09 AM
So it would be frustrating for you, if the performance in question was a real eye-opener?

Oh no!

I can see for miles
When Scarlett plays in eye-opening styles
.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mr. Minnow on October 31, 2017, 05:58:56 AM
Thanks for the replies about Weinberger's set - very helpful, especially the reviews on Harry's blog. Just ordered it from JPC.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on October 31, 2017, 10:15:23 AM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on October 31, 2017, 05:58:56 AM
Thanks for the replies about Weinberger's set - very helpful, especially the reviews on Harry's blog. Just ordered it from JPC.

Good!

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: André on October 31, 2017, 01:29:44 PM
I know I'm being lazy, but I'm not really inclined to read all 127 pages of this thread  :D . So here's my question:

Quid of Kei Koito's Bach ? I bought 4 single discs of the repertoire I'm most interested in because I once read she was really excellent. What do GMGers think ?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 31, 2017, 02:09:33 PM
Quote from: André on October 31, 2017, 01:29:44 PM
I know I'm being lazy, but I'm not really inclined to read all 127 pages of this thread  :D . So here's my question:

Quid of Kei Koito's Bach ? I bought 4 single discs of the repertoire I'm most interested in because I once read she was really excellent. What do GMGers think ?

I've only heard the AoF and the CU 3.

Special organs, it's unusual to hear them in the music, they're well recorded; passionate and expressive interpretations;  limpid registrations, but nevertheless not always quite "equal status for each voice"  - she knows how to use the bass in a way which doesn't crush the rest; lyrical phrasing, underarticulated sometimes possibly; she likes to move the music forward, maybe too much; pedal in AoF, with some surprising results.
.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 31, 2017, 03:38:29 PM
Quote from: André on October 31, 2017, 01:29:44 PM
I know I'm being lazy, but I'm not really inclined to read all 127 pages of this thread  :D . So here's my question:

Quid of Kei Koito's Bach ? I bought 4 single discs of the repertoire I'm most interested in because I once read she was really excellent. What do GMGers think ?

Isn't five volumes the extent of her complete Bach so far, anyway?
Although I haven't as detailed and fine-eared a response as Mandryka, I know I do like what I hear. (When I put together a disc to test speakers, I instinctively grabbed her disc to choose two tracks for Bach/Organ to be on the disc.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: André on October 31, 2017, 06:17:06 PM
Koito has also recorded the 6 trio sonatas and other stuff (concertos) on another label, but this seems hard to get and/or quite expensive. In any case, 5 discs of «chosen» masterworks is just the ticket for me, as I already have integral sets by Chapuis and Vernet.

Thank you both for the details on her style and artistry. Sound clips only give an idea but what I heard was very pleasing: luminous sound and nice forward motion are qualities I value very much in Bach organ playing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mr. Minnow on November 04, 2017, 07:40:23 AM
Does anyone here have the organ works from Hanssler's complete Bach edition? I see it's performed by a number of different organists, but I'm not familiar with most of them. I'd be interested to know if there are radical differences in interpretation between them.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 04, 2017, 08:18:03 AM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on November 04, 2017, 07:40:23 AM
Does anyone here have the organ works from Hanssler's complete Bach edition? I see it's performed by a number of different organists, but I'm not familiar with most of them. I'd be interested to know if there are radical differences in interpretation between them.

Depends on what you consider radical..... They all play in a historically informed style on what are mostly period organs (but not all).

Other than that: Andrea Marcon and Bine Katrine Bryndorf are very different performers, to give an example.

Anyway, I would recommend the set.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 04, 2017, 08:20:49 AM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on November 04, 2017, 07:40:23 AM
Does anyone here have the organ works from Hanssler's complete Bach edition? I see it's performed by a number of different organists, but I'm not familiar with most of them. I'd be interested to know if there are radical differences in interpretation between them.

It's a great set IMO, and all organists are fine, or even very very fine. :)
Interesting listening to well-informed players, on, in most cases, great sounding organs.
Martin Lücker was, IIRC, the most 'old-fashioned' player, with the use of many changes in registration.
Bryndorf, Johannsen and Zerer are good examples of 'no nonsense' way of playing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 04, 2017, 08:22:16 AM
Quote from: Mr. Minnow on November 04, 2017, 07:40:23 AM
Does anyone here have the organ works from Hanssler's complete Bach edition? I see it's performed by a number of different organists, but I'm not familiar with most of them. I'd be interested to know if there are radical differences in interpretation between them.

If you mouse-over on the picture on the Bach Organ Cycle Survey (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)), you get all the organs used.
I haven't listened to it in a long time and I only remember some discs a LOT... and some a little less.  K. Johannsen, I remember especially liking. Other than that, what Que said.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 04, 2017, 09:08:57 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 04, 2017, 08:20:49 AM
Zerer are good examples of 'no nonsense' way of playing.

This maybe explains why I didn't care so much for his Scheidt at Kantens. I'm a nonsense kind of guy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 04, 2017, 12:02:22 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 04, 2017, 09:08:57 AM
This maybe explains why I didn't care so much for his Scheidt at Kantens. I'm a nonsense kind of guy.

Could be.

Despite that:
Playing Scheidt ≠ playing Bach.
Scheidt can take more nonsense than Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 04, 2017, 01:26:54 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 04, 2017, 12:02:22 PM
Scheidt can take more nonsense than Bach.
How does this nonsense make sense?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 04, 2017, 02:55:16 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 04, 2017, 01:26:54 PM
How does this nonsense make sense?

Hehe! I have to say that I probably don't know Scheidt well enough to understand this, even trying to... but doesn't Bach withstand just about any kind of nonsense short of Jean Guillou?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 05, 2017, 03:28:42 AM
Hehe, too. ;)

Of course, it was a generalization, and in fact a 'reversed' generalization.
The word 'nonsense' was used as opposed to 'no nonsense'.
I didn't mean 'without any sense'.

I meant to say that, IMHO, compared to much of the 17th century German organ music, it's less of a 'problem' when Bach is played in a 'no nonsense' style.

From the discs that I have of Zerer, and from his concerts that I attended, I consider his approach as a 'no nonsense' one, which, in Zerer's case, means sober and direct. But this approach can work against him in earlier baroque music than Bach's, because I feel that in those works more fantasy, imagination, tempo & registration changes, IOW 'interpretation' can be a plus.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 05, 2017, 03:42:46 AM
I don't want to pick on Zerer, I thought what he did with the Scheidt Cantio Sacra was stimulating, it's just that I enjoy Bestehorn more. Bestehorn may in fact be more sober. The Kantens organ sounds wonderful and is colourful, Zerer in fact seems there to be one of the Dutch school which likes to play symphonically -  pungent contrasting colours simultaneously - like Tuinstra in Bohm. In fact I feel rather similarly about Zerer's Scheidt as I do about some of Tuinstra's Bohm (though there's clearly more of it!)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 05, 2017, 03:51:59 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 05, 2017, 03:42:46 AM
I don't want to pick on Zerer, I thought what he did with the Scheidt Cantio Sacra was stimulating, it's just that I enjoy Bestehorn more. The Kantens organ sounds wonderful and is colourful, Zerer in fact seems there to be one of the Dutch school which likes to play symphonically - lots of colours - like Tuinstra in Bohm. In fact I feel rather similarly about Zerer's Scheidt as I do about some of Tuinstra's Bohm (though there's clearly more of it!)

I recognize the 'symphonical' thing. And yes, the Kantens organ is a beauty.

I didn't want to pick on Zerer, either, btw. I've always enjoyed his concerts, though sometimes, afterwards, I had the feeling that I missed something. Not easy to describe though. Spirituality maybe? But that's such a vague notion. Let's just say, that, here on some Groningen organs, I felt more spiritually enlifted whilst and after listening to organists like Harald Vogel, Vincent van Laar, Peter Westerbrink and 'even' Ton Koopman (in chorale-based works, either from Bach or any 17th century composer, fast Ton can be wonderful).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on November 05, 2017, 05:28:05 AM
I think the Zerer recording in Kantens one of the best he ever recorded. I do not miss anything in his playing style, spiritually or on a technical level. I did my bit on this organ in Kantens, and it's a very difficult instrument to play on, and of course I do not get near to what Zerer delivers. So considering this, I think any criticism is a personal one, and not necessarily true for the rest of us.

Secondly the Hanssler box is a very viable option to acquire, first of all for the historic organs, and secondly for the quality of the organists.
I started with the first two discs of this set, and although I am not wholly impressed by Kay Johannsen, he nevertheless gets enough authority out of Bach's works to thoroughly enjoying them.
Plus the fact that it can be had for very little money.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 05, 2017, 05:51:47 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 05, 2017, 03:28:42 AM
But this approach can work against [an interpreter] in earlier baroque music than Bach's, because I feel that in those works more fantasy, imagination, tempo & registration changes, IOW 'interpretation' can be a plus.

Ah, this I whole-heartedly agree with. They do need a little extra kick to get through to our modern sensibility.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 05, 2017, 06:49:34 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 05, 2017, 03:51:59 AM
I recognize the 'symphonical' thing. And yes, the Kantens organ is a beauty.

I didn't want to pick on Zerer, either, btw. I've always enjoyed his concerts, though sometimes, afterwards, I had the feeling that I missed something. Not easy to describe though. Spirituality maybe? But that's such a vague notion. Let's just say, that, here on some Groningen organs, I felt more spiritually enlifted whilst and after listening to organists like Harald Vogel, Vincent van Laar, Peter Westerbrink and 'even' Ton Koopman (in chorale-based works, either from Bach or any 17th century composer, fast Ton can be wonderful).

Did I ever let you have the concert recording of Zerer at Uttum? If not, let me know, I think it's outstanding.

Where you have this symphonic approach to registration in a piece like the Scheidt, lots of short variations on a hymn tune, each part with its own characterful colour fingerprint, it can't be easy to make the music flow naturally from one part to the next, like a long and tranquil stream.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 05, 2017, 10:00:35 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on November 05, 2017, 05:28:05 AM
I think the Zerer recording in Kantens one of the best he ever recorded. I do not miss anything in his playing style, spiritually or on a technical level. I did my bit on this organ in Kantens, and it's a very difficult instrument to play on, and of course I do not get near to what Zerer delivers. So considering this, I think any criticism is a personal one, and not necessarily true for the rest of us.

Secondly the Hanssler box is a very viable option to acquire, first of all for the historic organs, and secondly for the quality of the organists.
I started with the first two discs of this set, and although I am not wholly impressed by Kay Johannsen, he nevertheless gets enough authority out of Bach's works to thoroughly enjoying them.
Plus the fact that it can be had for very little money.

Yes, any criticism is personal. I would not dare to claim otherwise.

And, in this particular case, I agree with your positive opinion about the Hänssler box. I like it, too, and I like Johanssen very much.
My criticism towards Martin Lücker is... a personal one. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 03, 2017, 09:46:13 AM
I'm starting to get interested in the Neumeister Chorales and so I thought I'd post here just to ask if anyone has explored them on record, and if there's anything that stands out. So far I find myself enjoying Foccroulle and Beekman most - very different approaches.

I'm unclear about what the Arnstädter preludes are, and whether there are any outstanding recordings of them, Werner Jacob was the first to record them, and his LP has been transferred to CD but it's not for sale in the UK - I'd have  to bring it in from The States. I'll do it if someone says they remember it was one of his successful recordings

(I've always had a penchant for Orgelbuchlein, so I guess it's not surprising that I'm enjoying these Chorales too. )
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 03, 2017, 11:34:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 03, 2017, 09:46:13 AM
I'm unclear about what the Arnstädter preludes are, and whether there are any outstanding recordings of them, Werner Jacob was the first to record them, and his LP has been transferred to CD but it's not for sale in the UK - I'd have  to bring it in from The States. I'll do it if someone says they remember it was one of his successful recordings

According to Peter Williams the concept Arnstädter Gemeindechoräle was first used by Herman Keller in 1948, and includes the chorales BWV 715, 722, 726, 729, 732 and 738. They are not handed down as a specific group, They are characterized by bold harmonisations of the choral tunes with interspersed running scales and ornamentation. They were thought to be meant as accompaniment to the congregational singing, but their precise dating is uncertain. For practical reasons they are today included in the group "miscellaneous chorales" from BWV 690 and on. Most of the so called complete Bach organ sets include them. Walcha and AFAIK Heiller did not include them in their "integrals" from the early 1950es. I think Walter Kraft was the first to include them in an integral. As far as I remember Jacob's recordings of these does not stand particularly out, but it is a long time since I heard them, 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 11, 2018, 07:22:20 AM
(https://i.scdn.co/image/f4a9a9aa60184af78bdcb57a04e60ddb508c8ffa)

I think this is an interesting recording, both from the point of the view of the monumental performances, and from the point of view of the monumental organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 11, 2018, 07:41:59 AM
Somebody posted a bunch of old recordings with Silbermann on Youtube. Any info or analysis? Thank you.

https://youtu.be/IG96XVLSH9Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 11, 2018, 09:29:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 11, 2018, 07:22:20 AM
(https://i.scdn.co/image/f4a9a9aa60184af78bdcb57a04e60ddb508c8ffa)

I think this is an interesting recording, both from the point of the view of the monumental performances, and from the point of view of the monumental organs.

What do you mean "monumental performances"? This is chamber music transcribed for organ.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 11, 2018, 09:33:55 AM
I thought they were organ sonatas sometimes transcribed for chamber ensembles.

What I mean is, they're weighty, with depth and profundity.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 11, 2018, 09:41:06 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 11, 2018, 09:33:55 AM
I thought they were organ sonatas sometimes transcribed for chamber ensembles.

Most of them probably originated as triosonatas for chamber ensemble.

Quote from: Mandryka
What I mean is, they're weighty, with depth and profundity.

You make me think of organists of the past, who played these works very slow and with heavy registrations.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 11, 2018, 09:53:50 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 11, 2018, 07:41:59 AM
Somebody posted a bunch of old recordings with Silbermann on Youtube. Any info or analysis? Thank you.

https://youtu.be/IG96XVLSH9Q

Taken from this set:

https://www.amazon.de/Orgelwerke-auf-Silbermann-Orgeln-Otto/dp/B000TGF1G8/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1520790255&sr=1-2&keywords=bach+k%C3%B6bler

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Silbermann-Organ-2.htm

Well, a nice set, interpretations (by Eastern Germany's at that time leading organists) rather conservative but none-the-less attractive. The organs were at the time of recording not yet properly restored, but still much of the Gottfried Silbermann character shines through.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 11, 2018, 10:31:24 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 11, 2018, 09:41:06 AM


You make me think of organists of the past, who played these works very slow and with heavy registrations.

Like Rubsam for Naxos!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 11, 2018, 11:05:42 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 11, 2018, 10:31:24 AM
Like Rubsam for Naxos!

:)

I do not think this applies to his recording of the trio sonatas but to some other things like the passacaglia and the Sei gegrüsset variations. Both these works are organ compositions of the weighty kind.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 11, 2018, 11:09:40 AM
Thanks a lot!
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 11, 2018, 09:53:50 AM
Taken from this set:

https://www.amazon.de/Orgelwerke-auf-Silbermann-Orgeln-Otto/dp/B000TGF1G8/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1520790255&sr=1-2&keywords=bach+k%C3%B6bler

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Silbermann-Organ-2.htm

Well, a nice set, interpretations (by Eastern Germany's at that time leading organists) rather conservative but none-the-less attractive. The organs were at the time of recording not yet properly restored, but still much of the Gottfried Silbermann character shines through.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 11, 2018, 11:46:56 AM
Talking about slow playing, I find this rendition too slow. Good tone though.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 11, 2018, 12:04:22 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 11, 2018, 11:46:56 AM
Talking about slow playing, I find this rendition too slow. Good tone though.

Agree, it is on the slow side, and the fast movements of the trio sonata (BWV 527) ar a bit heavy. But the CD has other qualities like very informed playing and a marvelous sounding organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 11, 2018, 01:48:42 PM
I'll tell you something I've been enjoying recently, Knud Vad play the G minor fantasie , BWV 542. Very dramatic climax.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 14, 2018, 05:54:11 PM
Quinney's vol.4 was released a few months ago, and I checked it on Youtube. Sounds solid, if safe and risk-averse. I will buy the disc soon.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqrjYSu7dP2QofgL4TveJ2VSrwV5sfQIP
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 14, 2018, 05:57:37 PM
Stella is bright and vivacious.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Gorio1968 on March 15, 2018, 12:42:00 AM
I already own Helmut Walcha, Wolfgang Rubsam and Massaki Suzuki recordings, all are just 2 CD collections. I don't really want to wade through 128 pages of discussion (yes I am lazy) but am interested in adding maybe a complete set and thought it wise to solicit advice here. Thanks for any help.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 15, 2018, 01:35:03 AM
Quote from: Gorio1968 on March 15, 2018, 12:42:00 AM
I already own Helmut Walcha, Wolfgang Rubsam and Massaki Suzuki recordings, all are just 2 CD collections. I don't really want to wade through 128 pages of discussion (yes I am lazy) but am interested in adding maybe a complete set and thought it wise to solicit advice here. Thanks for any help.

Extremely wise.  ;D

Here's a starting point to give you an idea of what's out there:

A Survey of Bach Organ Cycles
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)

Esp. if your Ruebsam is a Naxos recording, you have very disparate takes on Bach so far, which I think is a good thing. Sort of readies the ears and keeps them open-minded.

To these recordings, I would recommend you add this 3-CD set with Karl Richter (http://a-fwd.to/3Q75iAZ). It's beginning to show its age (not more or even as much as Walcha, though), and I think it can very nearly be agreed to as being essential.

A first set should be reasonably easy to get, somewhat affordable, and perhaps not too kinky (G*****u). And, I suppose, it needn't necessarily be hyper-complete (as Weinberger & Stockmeier are).
What you haven't got on your list, yet, is a set on historical/Silbermann instruments. This suggests that Marie-Claire Alain III Warner may be a good start.

I also think that Marie-Claire Alain II would be a great first set; ditto Ton Koopman... all of which I find pleasing and enjoyable to a high degree and which I think many Bach-lovers could also agree on as being suitable. (Koopman might polarize a little, though I've never quite understood why.) I'm also a fan of André Isoir, but am not sure I'd recommend him over these others as a first set.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 15, 2018, 01:44:26 AM
Quote from: Gorio1968 on March 15, 2018, 12:42:00 AM
I already own Helmut Walcha, Wolfgang Rubsam and Massaki Suzuki recordings, all are just 2 CD collections. I don't really want to wade through 128 pages of discussion (yes I am lazy) but am interested in adding maybe a complete set and thought it wise to solicit advice here. Thanks for any help.


There are many recordings of Bach organ works, and really the best way to find out which of them you
like or dislike is listening to samples on Youtube and other places. I am sure Premont, the organ specialist on Fu will give you some good leads. I have many sets of Bach's organ works, and my favourite would be the Aeolus set with Ewald Kooiman and others. Olivier Vernet would be a good second, Weingartner is also praise worthy, Foccroulle if you like a technical approach, Christopher Herrick is also a favourite of mine, but I was not able to get the complete set, it's OOP, etc etc, just listen to all of them, I am sure you find the recordings you like.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2018, 02:18:16 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on March 15, 2018, 01:44:26 AM

There are many recordings of Bach organ works, and really the best way to find out which of them you like or dislike is listening to samples on Youtube and other places. [...]

Seconded.

For the rest: there are indeed a few posts by me, myself and I, and by Premont, and by Harry (and his corner), and by many others, and those are real good advices (of course my advices are the best), but, since there are so many good recordings, your own ears might be your best counselor.

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 15, 2018, 02:29:06 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 15, 2018, 02:18:16 AM
Seconded.

For the rest: there are indeed a few posts by me, myself and I, and by Premont, and by Harry (and his corner), and by many others, and those are real good advices (of course my advices are the best), but, since there are so many good recordings, your own ears might be your best counselor.

:)

Well at least you made me laugh for quite a while, so that's, to begin with, not a bad score for a Thursday morning or any other morning for that matter  :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2018, 02:53:09 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on March 15, 2018, 02:29:06 AM
Well at least you made me laugh for quite a while, so that's, to begin with, not a bad score for a Thursday morning or any other morning for that matter  :laugh: :laugh:

And I even forgot to second your positive remark(s) about the Kooiman & pupils (Aeolus) set. One 'disadvantage': it's quite expensive.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2018, 03:30:16 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 11, 2018, 07:22:20 AM
(https://i.scdn.co/image/f4a9a9aa60184af78bdcb57a04e60ddb508c8ffa)

I think this is an interesting recording, both from the point of the view of the monumental performances, and from the point of view of the monumental organs.

I'm glad I have that one, too.
(From time to time, I'm in urgent need for some weight.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 15, 2018, 03:31:23 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 15, 2018, 02:53:09 AM
And I even forgot to second your positive remark(s) about the Kooiman & pupils (Aeolus) set. One 'disadvantage': it's quite expensive.

Tis forgiven :)

When I bought this set, it was for a very affordable price, and I urged everyone to buy, for I knew the price would go up massively, and it did. Almost none took it up. Those that really wanted it, fished behind the net, for it is not likely that it will be lowered in price any time soon. It's a bit like with the Christopher Herrick box, I waited too long, and now it's gone, or to be bought at a ridiculous high price. Bugger!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Gorio1968 on March 15, 2018, 04:40:01 AM
Thank you all, that was exactly what I needed. I will now spend an afternoon on Youtube and let my ears decide.

I had the Ton Koopman set but lost custody due to divorce; sadly I had never listened to them properly. My ex knew the best way to hurt me was to take both of the "complete" sets of Bach I had ordered. Note to self; prenums need to cover music!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 15, 2018, 04:47:11 AM
Quote from: Gorio1968 on March 15, 2018, 04:40:01 AM
I had the Ton Koopman set but lost custody due to divorce; sadly I had never listened to them properly. My ex knew the best way to hurt me was to take both of the "complete" sets of Bach I had ordered. Note to self; prenums need to cover music!

??? ;D  Ouch. One just never thinks of that, when all's well and wonderful. If my future ex-wife (a contingency I hope will never happen, obviously) were to pinch me where it hurts most, Bach-box-wise, she would probably take the Ruebsam I or Rogg sets. But part of my attachment to those might just be their relative rarity, nost just because I love them for the playing. (Though I do.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2018, 05:03:04 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 15, 2018, 04:47:11 AM
??? ;D  Ouch. One just never thinks of that, when all's well and wonderful. If my future ex-wife (a contingency I hope will never happen, obviously) were to pinch me where it hurts most, Bach-box-wise, she would probably take the Ruebsam I or Rogg sets. But part of my attachment to those might just be their relative rarity, nost just because I love them for the playing. (Though I do.)

If it happens (fingers crossed it won't)... we'll arrange some uploads of those rare retro OOP stuff you seem to like. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 15, 2018, 08:59:47 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71BQckc-uPL._SX522_.jpg)

I think this CU3 is worth knowing, very fine performances I'd say from Paretti and Kuper, apparently on a 19th century organ (Engelhardt), but in the best possible taste. And how wonderful to hear the manualiter chorales played so well on a harpsichord. The style is muscular and forward moving rather than reflective, and it sounds right like that. Fabulous sound.

My info about the organ comes from the customer review on Amazon.de. I can't confirm it or find out more details. Whatever it is it's a very fine instrument.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 15, 2018, 09:59:15 AM
Quote from: Gorio1968 on March 15, 2018, 12:42:00 AM
I already own Helmut Walcha, Wolfgang Rubsam and Massaki Suzuki recordings, all are just 2 CD collections. I don't really want to wade through 128 pages of discussion (yes I am lazy) but am interested in adding maybe a complete set and thought it wise to solicit advice here. Thanks for any help.

I really wonder whether buying a complete set is such a good idea, especially these days when you can hear decent performances on streaming services so easily. What I think is better is to find a piece of music that specially interests you -- maybe sonatas or chorales or a fugue or whatever -- and then seek out advice about what the most imaginative performances on record are. Or alternatively it may be a certain type of organ sound which tickles your fancy and you can take it from there. Or a performer may appear specially charismatic.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 15, 2018, 10:03:57 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 15, 2018, 08:59:47 AM
I think this CU3 is worth knowing, very fine performances I'd say from Paretti and Kuper, apparently on a 19th century organ (Engelhardt), but in the best possible taste. And how wonderful to hear the manualiter chorales played so well on a harpsichord. The style is muscular and forward moving rather than reflective, and it sounds right like that. Fabulous sound.

My info about the organ comes from the customer review on Amazon.de. I can't confirm it or find out more details. Whatever it is it's a very fine instrument.

It is in my CDs to be listened to pile. Here is some info on the organ he plays:

http://kirchenmusik-suedwestharz.de/herzberg-engelhardt-orgel.html
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Gorio1968 on March 15, 2018, 10:38:57 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 15, 2018, 09:59:15 AM
I really wonder whether buying a complete set is such a good idea, especially these days when you can hear decent performances on streaming services so easily. What I think is better is to find a piece of music that specially interests you -- maybe sonatas or chorales or a fugue or whatever -- and then seek out advice about what the most imaginative performances on record are. Or alternatively it may be a certain type of organ sound which tickles your fancy and you can take it from there. Or a performer may appear specially charismatic.

Good advice, thank you. However, I often travel to areas where I have no internet access for extended periods of time so streaming is not an option. Also, I have already started to build a small Bach library and I would like a full set just to be completist. In these digital days it is easier to carry at least one recording of every work of Bach (that we know of) on a phone (OnePlus 5G 128Gb). Now I have lost my "complete" sets I have started collecting recommended recordings of every extant work and a few version when it comes to my personal favourites.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on March 15, 2018, 11:11:48 AM
Quote from: Gorio1968 on March 15, 2018, 10:38:57 AM
Good advice, thank you. However, I often travel to areas where I have no internet access for extended periods of time so streaming is not an option. Also, I have already started to build a small Bach library and I would like a full set just to be completist. In these digital days it is easier to carry at least one recording of every work of Bach (that we know of) on a phone (OnePlus 5G 128Gb). Now I have lost my "complete" sets I have started collecting recommended recordings of every extant work and a few version when it comes to my personal favourites.

I tend to think that people know quite exactly what they want.  ;)

You want a complete set (assuming your Walcha or Rübsam aren't); so without to ask any further information, I would suggest you to explore this one:

Marie-Claire Alain, second integral.

This set:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514-CPfOtyL._SS500.jpg)

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-JS-Complete-Organ-Works/dp/B005LBJYAK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521140779&sr=8-1&keywords=marie+claire+complete
:)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 15, 2018, 01:51:24 PM
Quote from: Gordo on March 15, 2018, 11:11:48 AM
You want a complete set (assuming your Walcha or Rübsam aren't); so without to ask any further information, I would suggest you to explore this one:

Marie-Claire Alain, second integral.

This set:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514-CPfOtyL._SS500.jpg)

Also good advice. However if Gorio1968 prefers period instruments, I would rather suggest Foccroulle.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Gorio1968 on March 15, 2018, 02:14:17 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 15, 2018, 01:51:24 PM
Also good advice. However if Gorio1968 prefers period instruments, I would rather suggest Foccroulle.

I missed the HIP wars and just trust my ears (subjective and obviously personal) but lean towards what is referred to as HIP. I hope to make time tomorrow to listen to some Foccroulle, thank you all.

---

On a separate note, I was sidetracked earlier and explored some of this sites recommendation for Bach's cello suites... I never thought any recording would supplant Maestro Rostropovich (who I had the blessing of seeing live at the opening of the Snape Maltings school on the 28th of April 1979 when it was opened by HM Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother) but some of you had recommended Arnau Tomàs, I have now purchased his recording and cannot thank you enough for your recommendations.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 15, 2018, 02:38:38 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 15, 2018, 01:51:24 PM
Also good advice. However if Gorio1968 prefers period instruments, I would rather suggest Foccroulle.

... or Alain III (which I am partial to, haven't heard Foccroulle).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2018, 10:24:32 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 15, 2018, 01:51:24 PM
Also good advice. However if Gorio1968 prefers period instruments, I would rather suggest Foccroulle.

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 15, 2018, 02:38:38 PM
... or Alain III (which I am partial to, haven't heard Foccroulle).

Nah, he should pick the Hänssler set.

Ha!
These interactions should be the start of another 129 pages.
It will give Gorio1968 something to read.

;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 16, 2018, 03:06:58 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 15, 2018, 02:38:38 PM
... or Alain III (which I am partial to, haven't heard Foccroulle).

I suggested the Foccroulle set, finding it superior to Alain III - not as to the chosen organs but as to interpretation.

Quote from: Marc on March 15, 2018, 10:24:32 PM
Nah, he should pick the Hänssler set.

In my view the Hänssler set is too uneven for a first recommendation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 16, 2018, 03:22:05 AM
I thought I'd do a scientific test, I just listened to Alain III and Foccroulle in BWV 656. Based on that sample, I wouldn't recommend either - Weinberger's  much more interesting to hear.

I'd forgotten how underarticulated Alain III can be, and how fast Foccroulle can be.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 16, 2018, 03:53:58 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 16, 2018, 03:06:58 AM
I suggested the Foccroulle set, finding it superior to Alain III - not as to the chosen organs but as to interpretation.

In my view the Hänssler set is too uneven for a first recommendation.

I agree about the Hanssler set, I laid it aside for later listening, but it is definitely not a set to recommend at first. The unevenness can put you off, like it did me. I wonder if I would ever return to that set, but we will see :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on March 16, 2018, 06:38:00 AM
I'm usually quite strict in my preference for period instruments (probably just surpassed here by Gurn, who doesn't read this thread  ;D); but there are so many beautiful "neo-baroque" organs recorded in several Bach integrals that  it's hardly a decisive issue to me...  :)


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 16, 2018, 09:03:49 AM
Quote from: Gordo on March 16, 2018, 06:38:00 AM
I'm usually quite strict in my preference for period instruments (probably just surpassed here by Gurn, who doesn't read this thread  ;D); but there are so many beautiful "neo-baroque" organs recorded in several Bach integrals that  it's hardly a decisive issue to me...  :)

Well, carefully executed stylistic copies of baroque organs can be almost as good as original and reconstructed baroque organs, but the generic and uncharacteristic neo-baroque organ represented by certain Metzler organs and Marcussen organs e.g. does not always IMO do full justice to Bach's music, and in addition - as you probably know - I am not much of a fan of equal tuning for music written before ca. 1800. So to me it is not that simple, because many different considerations count.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 16, 2018, 09:28:40 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 16, 2018, 03:06:58 AM
I suggested the Foccroulle set, finding it superior to Alain III - not as to the chosen organs but as to interpretation.

Well, this is annoying, when you find the Foccroulle set on Amazon.com, the link that would normally point to marketplace sellers with new and used copies links to a weird paperback score listed for more than $700.  ???
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 16, 2018, 09:35:21 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 16, 2018, 09:28:40 AM
Well, this is annoying, when you find the Foccroulle set on Amazon.com, the link that would normally point to marketplace sellers with new and used copies links to a weird paperback score listed for more than $700.  ???

Gorio 1968 lives in England, so he would probably use this link, which works better:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Js-Bach-Integrale-Loeuvre-Dorgue/dp/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521221479&sr=1-2&keywords=bach+foccroulle&dpID=61G7BKR3-6L&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

or this:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7982174--bach-j-s-organ-works-complete
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 16, 2018, 09:58:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 16, 2018, 03:22:05 AM
I thought I'd do a scientific test, I just listened to Alain III and Foccroulle in BWV 656. Based on that sample, I wouldn't recommend either - Weinberger's  much more interesting to hear.

I'd forgotten how underarticulated Alain III can be, and how fast Foccroulle can be.

Good idea. I'm now doing the same thing, starting with Weinberger and then continuing w/Alain II, Foccroulle, Ruebsam II, Walcha II, Bowyer (who gets very little love, generally, but whose Clavieruebung III I find really good), H.Otto (from the GDR Silbermann organ cycle that's very dear to my heart), Isoir (whom I profess to love but am not sure would always pick in a blind comparison), Bryndorf, Hurford and Chapuis.

Weinberger is, on the surface, as understated and dry as Alain II's Marcussen organ is bright and the embodiment of the clichee of what a church organ should sound. (The latter would befit one of the grand Preludes and Fugues) But there's more to the surface, which is exactly Weinberger's point: he has a lot more stratification in his sound & voicing. I find that typical of Weinberger: ALWAYS easy to underrate at first (and often second) listening; rarely the out-of-the-box most impressive. Foccroulle does breeze through and iron out the thorny bits and makes it easier listening, if you don't want to concentrate on the music. But I do like the sound of his playing. Probably predictably Ruebsam II is the slowest of the bunch - muted, but beautifully articulated. Perfect for having your hair cut to. The older generation -- Otto & Walcha II -- tend towards faster tempos, too... which is a way of not making too much of the work, I suppose. I didn't think I'd particularly like the Walcha take, but I find that the stringency and momentum work well. Bowyer is also among the speed-demons (relatively speaking); furthermore, he rushes slightly, which is not becoming the momentum. And the tremulant effect seems like overegging the pudding. And he is one of the players who keeps one character for the whole piece. Otto's instrument can curl your toenails, if you are not used to it... in a way that's also a historic temperament... but not in the scholarly, on-purpose way. Still, there is something in the sour, tangy way and the crisp playing that I really like. Isoir voices even reedier (and lower) than Weinberger... his slightly more mobile tempo, after having heard considerably faster accounts, works well. Chapuis is similar but lighter and higher; rather intimate at first -- until he opens up in a v. neatly registered transition... making for a Jekyll / Hyde contrast. Isoir stays much more in the original, somber, muted character.  Hurford, in comparison, sounds almost ludicrous: He's nearly (exactly!) twice as fast as Ruebsam II! Virile it is, and I like the gnarly bass playing off the bright upper voices in the last third, but even so... Lady Bryndorf (Haenssler collection) reminds me a bit of Alain II - but with a quicker pulse and a more ingratiating instrument in the Trondheim Wagner organ.

I would probably never have picked that piece on my own, to compare these... so it was particularly rewarding to compare in a work I'm not very familiar with. Chapuis's gutsiness impressed me most, I suppose... followed by Weinberger & Walcha

A little less so: Ruebsam II and Isoir

A good deal less so: Bowyer, Alain II, Foccroulle, Otto



Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Gorio1968 on March 16, 2018, 12:29:56 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 16, 2018, 09:35:21 AM

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7982174--bach-j-s-organ-works-complete

Bernard Foccroulle 16 CDs for £38.67 is certainly interesting as I would have money left over for another Bach purchase.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 16, 2018, 12:36:50 PM
Quote from: Gorio1968 on March 16, 2018, 12:29:56 PM
Bernard Foccroulle 16 CDs for £38.67 is certainly interesting as I would have money left over for another Bach purchase.

Sometimes Weinberger is on sale for that & less on JPC.de; don't know how that comes out plus shipping but minus VAT.

And I'm seeing a Rogg set (http://amzn.to/2tSWm3n) available, used, for twenty-something on Amazon.com, which I would grab, actually. Not terribly complete but very nice performances, I think.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Gorio1968 on March 16, 2018, 12:40:31 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 16, 2018, 12:36:50 PM
Sometimes Weinberger is on sale for that & less on JPC.de; don't know how that comes out plus shipping but minus VAT.

And I'm seeing a Rogg set (http://amzn.to/2tSWm3n) available, used, for twenty-something on Amazon.com, which I would grab, actually. Not terribly complete but very nice performances, I think.

Thank you, I will search for them now.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 16, 2018, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 16, 2018, 12:36:50 PM

And I'm seeing a Rogg set (http://amzn.to/2tSWm3n) available, used, for twenty-something on Amazon.com, which I would grab, actually. Not terribly complete but very nice performances, I think.

And a particularly beautiful organ. But what about customs duties??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Gorio1968 on March 16, 2018, 02:16:54 PM
Rogg https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-LOuvre-dorgue-Organ-Works/dp/B01KAPJW9E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521238304&sr=8-1&keywords=L%27Ouvre+d%27orgue+The+Organ+Works+Rogg
(https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-LOuvre-dorgue-Organ-Works/dp/B01KAPJW9E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521238304&sr=8-1&keywords=L%27Ouvre+d%27orgue+The+Organ+Works+Rogg)

Used: £79.63
New: Currently unavailable

Weinberger https://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Complete-Organ-Works/dp/B001HBX8QO/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521238486&sr=1-8&keywords=Weinberger+Organ (https://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Complete-Organ-Works/dp/B001HBX8QO/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521238486&sr=1-8&keywords=Weinberger+Organ)

New: £84.25



Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 16, 2018, 02:20:52 PM
Quote from: Gorio1968 on March 16, 2018, 02:16:54 PM
Rogg https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-LOuvre-dorgue-Organ-Works/dp/B01KAPJW9E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521238304&sr=8-1&keywords=L%27Ouvre+d%27orgue+The+Organ+Works+Rogg
(https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-LOuvre-dorgue-Organ-Works/dp/B01KAPJW9E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521238304&sr=8-1&keywords=L%27Ouvre+d%27orgue+The+Organ+Works+Rogg)

Used: £79.63
New: Currently unavailable

Weinberger https://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Complete-Organ-Works/dp/B001HBX8QO/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521238486&sr=1-8&keywords=Weinberger+Organ (https://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Complete-Organ-Works/dp/B001HBX8QO/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521238486&sr=1-8&keywords=Weinberger+Organ)

New: £84.25

Oh, you're in the UK. Blimey.
As per Weinberger: Any CPO recording will usually be less expensive via jpc -- even when ordering from abroad -- because of how JPC/CPO (same company) interact with Amazon.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 16, 2018, 02:30:20 PM
Quote from: Gorio1968 on March 16, 2018, 02:16:54 PM
Rogg https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-LOuvre-dorgue-Organ-Works/dp/B01KAPJW9E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521238304&sr=8-1&keywords=L%27Ouvre+d%27orgue+The+Organ+Works+Rogg
(https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-LOuvre-dorgue-Organ-Works/dp/B01KAPJW9E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521238304&sr=8-1&keywords=L%27Ouvre+d%27orgue+The+Organ+Works+Rogg)

Used: £79.63
New: Currently unavailable

Weinberger https://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Complete-Organ-Works/dp/B001HBX8QO/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521238486&sr=1-8&keywords=Weinberger+Organ (https://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Complete-Organ-Works/dp/B001HBX8QO/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521238486&sr=1-8&keywords=Weinberger+Organ)

New: £84.25

Weinberger 50 Euro:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-S%E4mtliche-Orgelwerke/hnum/7006321

Rogg  29 $:

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-LOuvre-dorgue-Organ-Works/dp/B000027OAA/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521239080&sr=1-1&keywords=bach+rogg

Bur as I wrote earlier I would start with Foccroulle (alternatively Alain II)

Alain II:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7959716--bach-j-s-organ-works-complete
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 16, 2018, 04:14:09 PM
Where does Stockmeier stand in the contentious hierarchy?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sammy on March 16, 2018, 04:19:55 PM
Overall, I like the Hanssler set.  Actually, I didn't buy it as a set; I acquired most of the recordings when they were first released.  As I remember it, I enjoyed all the artists except for Kay Johannsen who does nothing for me.  Marcon, Zeher, Bryndorf, Hill and the others were impressive.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 16, 2018, 04:41:31 PM
Reminds me of a nuroscience book I read explaining about why we like and continue to like the music we listened when we were 15-20 years old. Duran x2, Zeppelin, Beatles, Elvis depending upon your generation. The first music experience remains as a musical paradigm to assess the following music throughout your life, theorists say. Do we tend to favor the first rendition, or first interpretation, of Bach we have listened?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 17, 2018, 01:28:01 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 16, 2018, 04:14:09 PM
Where does Stockmeier stand in the contentious hierarchy?

The hierarchy being contentious, as you say, I can't answer but for myself: Near, but slightly below Weinberger -- which is to say: easy to underrate... but super-solid. My instinct, when I have an itch for a longer Bach organ music listening session, certainly brings me to his set before either of the Walcha's. It was my first such set, actually, acquired for next-to-nothing at Tower Records (I'm still thinking it was mis-priced; I kept the sticker and stuck it inside the box  ;D ).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 17, 2018, 02:31:25 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 11, 2018, 09:41:06 AM
Most of them probably originated as triosonatas for chamber ensemble.


Weinberger says.

Quote

The six sonatas have come down to us in two important manuscripts, namely in an autograph and in a copy by Anna Magdalena and  Wilhelm Friedemann Bach (with entries by J. S. Bach himself). Bach is thought to have written the autograph at the beginning of his Leipzig period, between about 1727-30. He drew in part on already existing compositions for the organ or other instruments while also doing some new supplying of locking movements. . . . In the autograph, in contrast to most other organ works by Bach, we find a treatment of the three obbligato voices which is extremely nuanced in its articulation - an indication that the chamber presentation of the organ trio had an artistic goal as well as a pedagogical one.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 17, 2018, 02:31:57 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 16, 2018, 04:14:09 PM
Where does Stockmeier stand in the contentious hierarchy?

A sober rendition, not quite HIP, played on nice sounding Kreienbrink organs. At first he may sound unimaginative, but my experience is, that repeated listening pays very much.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 17, 2018, 02:48:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 17, 2018, 02:31:25 AM
Weinberger says.

It is true, that there are more indications of the articulation in the organ trio sonatas (particularly in the slow movements) than in Bach's organ music in general. There are almost as many articulation signs as in his "other" chamber music (S&P for violin, cello suites, sonatas for violin and harpsichord et.c.), and in my point of view this rather makes it even more likely, that the origins of these movements are chamber music pieces for instrumental trio.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 17, 2018, 02:53:52 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 16, 2018, 04:41:31 PM
Reminds me of a nuroscience book I read explaining about why we like and continue to like the music we listened when we were 15-20 years old. Duran x2, Zeppelin, Beatles, Elvis depending upon your generation. The first music experience remains as a musical paradigm to assess the following music throughout your life, theorists say. Do we tend to favor the first rendition, or first interpretation, of Bach we have listened?

It may hold true for some, but not for me. While I still like the first interpretations I heard (Walcha's Bach, Klemperer's Beethoven e.g.), I have since then heard very many interpretations, which I today rate higher than these.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 17, 2018, 10:52:28 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 16, 2018, 09:28:40 AM
Well, this is annoying, when you find the Foccroulle set on Amazon.com, the link that would normally point to marketplace sellers with new and used copies links to a weird paperback score listed for more than $700.  ???

Look here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_1_olp?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521312584&sr=1-1&keywords=bach+foccroulle
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 17, 2018, 01:08:38 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on March 17, 2018, 10:52:28 AM
Look here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_1_olp?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521312584&sr=1-1&keywords=bach+foccroulle

Yes, it's about avoiding to click on "paperback".

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=foccroulle+bach
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on March 18, 2018, 04:39:19 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 16, 2018, 09:03:49 AM
Well, carefully executed stylistic copies of baroque organs can be almost as good as original and reconstructed baroque organs, but the generic and uncharacteristic neo-baroque organ represented by certain Metzler organs and Marcussen organs e.g. does not always IMO do full justice to Bach's music, and in addition - as you probably know - I am not much of a fan of equal tuning for music written before ca. 1800. So to me it is not that simple, because many different considerations count.

I don't have anything to object in your message. But, of course, I'm talking from my own experience, and at least three of my very favorite complete sets were recorded on this kind of instrument: Alain's second complete set (Meztlers and Marcussens), Herrick (swiss Metzlers), and Stockmeier (Kreienbrinks). I don't have any problem with Knud Vad's instrument either (Marcussen again).  :) 


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Gorio1968 on March 18, 2018, 07:14:45 AM
Thank you all for your suggestions, I greatly appreciate your assistance. However, at church this morning - discussing this with a friend - he mentioned he had 16 Koopman CDs he never listened to, they now have a new home. I have really enjoyed listening online to some of your suggestions, you have enriched my musical life.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 18, 2018, 07:42:17 AM
Quote from: Gordo on March 18, 2018, 04:39:19 AM
I don't have anything to object in your message. But, of course, I'm talking from my own experience, and at least three of my very favorite complete sets were recorded on this kind of instrument: Alain's second complete set (Meztlers and Marcussens), Herrick (swiss Metzlers), and Stockmeier (Kreienbrinks). I don't have any problem with Knud Vad's instrument either (Marcussen again).  :)

But then we are mostly in agreement anyway, because I would not characterize Vad's Sorø organ, Stockmeier's Kreienbrinks or Alain's Marcussens and Metzler (or the Schwenkedel - for that matter) as being generic. On the contrary they are rather individual instruments, i.e. some of Marcussen's and Metzler's better works. I am more in doubt as to some of the Metzler instruments Herrick uses e.g. Stadkirche, Zofingen, and the organ Rübsam uses for his first integral (Metzler organ, Frauenfeld, DE). Also Bovyer's Marcussen organ, Sct.Hans, Odense, DK and Lagacé's Beckerath organ, Montreal, CA spring to my mind as being particularly generic and for that reason a little off-putting. But we have to accept the situation, if we want to listen to these artists. Like saying it would be nice, if Brendel's three Beethoven integrals had been played on fortepiano, but we must accept the modern grand, if we want to listen to him..
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 18, 2018, 07:46:17 AM
So....after all the hubbub about organs and interpretations I would like to know if anyone of the GMG members knows of a place where I can find Christopher Herricks complete Bach survey for a reasonable price.
I really like what he does with Bach...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on March 18, 2018, 08:08:40 AM
Quote from: Gorio1968 on March 18, 2018, 07:14:45 AM
Thank you all for your suggestions, I greatly appreciate your assistance. However, at church this morning - discussing this with a friend - he mentioned he had 16 Koopman CDs he never listened to, they now have a new home. I have really enjoyed listening online to some of your suggestions, you have enriched my musical life.

It seens to be an acquired taste, but I love the Koopman set!  :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 18, 2018, 08:48:28 AM
Quote from: Que on March 18, 2018, 08:08:40 AM
It seens to be an acquired taste, but I love the Koopman set!  :)

Q

I know the set, and did not like it, I heard him perform live on the new Arp Schnitger organ in Groningen and I did not like it, but I loved the organ.  :) So acquired, yes :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2018, 11:03:22 AM
Quote from: Harry's corner on March 18, 2018, 07:46:17 AM
So....after all the hubbub about organs and interpretations I would like to know if anyone of the GMG members knows of a place where I can find Christopher Herricks complete Bach survey for a reasonable price.
I really like what he does with Bach...

During the period 2010-2015 I bought most of the volumes at PrestoClassical, for around € 12-15 per volume, but it looks like those single discs and twofers are slowly getting OOP, too.
I'm sorry I cannot be of any further help.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2018, 11:14:42 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 16, 2018, 09:58:32 AM
[...] Ruebsam II is the slowest of the bunch - muted, but beautifully articulated. Perfect for having your hair cut to. [...] I would probably never have picked that piece on my own, to compare these... so it was particularly rewarding to compare in a work I'm not very familiar with.
[...]

Koopman did 2 beautiful slow renderings of BWV 656, the first for Novalis (reissued by Brilliant) in Ottobeuren, the 2nd one in Leeuwarden (Teldec).

Here's a link to the latter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1R4CQxyAtc
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 18, 2018, 02:23:30 PM
Quote from: Harry's corner on March 18, 2018, 07:46:17 AM
So....after all the hubbub about organs and interpretations I would like to know if anyone of the GMG members knows of a place where I can find Christopher Herricks complete Bach survey for a reasonable price.
I really like what he does with Bach...

A l iot of of the individual volumes can be had here, but the "complete edition" is rather expensive:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1/260-8132655-3894966?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=bach+herrick
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 18, 2018, 03:05:01 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 18, 2018, 02:23:30 PM
A l iot of of the individual volumes can be had here, but the "complete edition" is rather expensive:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1/260-8132655-3894966?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=bach+herrick

Well I opted for a complete set, but I have already some individual CD'S, so I think I will take this route and patch them to a complete set.
Thank you my friend for aiding me in this.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 19, 2018, 06:33:05 AM
 How about the organ(s) played by Alessio Corti? Thanks.
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 18, 2018, 07:42:17 AM
But then we are mostly in agreement anyway, because I would not characterize Vad's Sorø organ, Stockmeier's Kreienbrinks or Alain's Marcussens and Metzler (or the Schwenkedel - for that matter) as being generic. On the contrary they are rather individual instruments, i.e. some of Marcussen's and Metzler's better works. I am more in doubt as to some of the Metzler instruments Herrick uses e.g. Stadkirche, Zofingen, and the organ Rübsam uses for his first integral (Metzler organ, Frauenfeld, DE). Also Bovyer's Marcussen organ, Sct.Hans, Odense, DK and Lagacé's Beckerath organ, Montreal, CA spring to my mind as being particularly generic and for that reason a little off-putting. But we have to accept the situation, if we want to listen to these artists. Like saying it would be nice, if Brendel's three Beethoven integrals had been played on fortepiano, but we must accept the modern grand, if we want to listen to him..
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 19, 2018, 06:40:17 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 19, 2018, 06:33:05 AM
How about the organ(s) played by Alessio Corti? Thanks.

To quote myself (post 2190 in this thread November 26, 2015):

From a musical point of view I find Corti outstanding. One may consider him an ideal syntesis of his teacher Lionel Rogg´s fluent naturalness and the learned expressivity of someone like Bernard Foccroulle. The weak point in Corti´s set is the two (modern)Tamburini organs he uses. Their sound do not make me associate to the sound-world of Bach organs. On the other hand I can not say, that they are  completely unsuited for the job, since they have some nice characteristics, among these a fine tonal balance. Much like playing his harpsichord works on a revival harpsichord (e.g. Neupert Bach-model).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 19, 2018, 07:07:28 AM
Great. Thanks a lot. I will research on Tamburini organ.
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 19, 2018, 06:40:17 AM
To quote myself (post 2190 in this thread November 26, 2015):

From a musical point of view I find Corti outstanding. One may consider him an ideal syntesis of his teacher Lionel Rogg´s fluent naturalness and the learned expressivity of someone like Bernard Foccroulle. The weak point in Corti´s set is the two (modern)Tamburini organs he uses. Their sound do not make me associate to the sound-world of Bach organs. On the other hand I can not say, that they are  completely unsuited for the job, since they have some nice characteristics, among these a fine tonal balance. Much like playing his harpsichord works on a revival harpsichord (e.g. Neupert Bach-model).

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 19, 2018, 11:42:15 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 19, 2018, 06:40:17 AM
To quote myself (post 2190 in this thread November 26, 2015):

From a musical point of view I find Corti outstanding. One may consider him an ideal syntesis of his teacher Lionel Rogg´s fluent naturalness and the learned expressivity of someone like Bernard Foccroulle. The weak point in Corti´s set is the two (modern)Tamburini organs he uses. Their sound do not make me associate to the sound-world of Bach organs. On the other hand I can not say, that they are  completely unsuited for the job, since they have some nice characteristics, among these a fine tonal balance. Much like playing his harpsichord works on a revival harpsichord (e.g. Neupert Bach-model).


If Corti had picked a few beautiful baroque organs, then his boxset would probably belong to my 'top 3 integrals', together with Ewald Kooiman (Coronata) and Bram Beekman (Lindenberg), both OOP since long.
As mentioned earlier, the still available (yet expensive) Kooiman & pupils (Aeolus) integral is a very strong contender, too. The playing is good to very good, and the sound quality of that particular set is truly amazing. Top notch.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 19, 2018, 12:19:36 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 19, 2018, 11:42:15 AM
If Corti had picked a few beautiful baroque organs, then his boxset would probably belong to my 'top 3 integrals', together with Ewald Kooiman (Coronata) and Bram Beekman (Lindenberg), both OOP since long.
As mentioned earlier, the still available (yet expensive) Kooiman & pupils (Aeolus) integral is a very strong contender, too. The playing is good to very good, and the sound quality of that particular set is truly amazing. Top notch.

Completely agreed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 19, 2018, 10:54:26 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Nq152pp6L._SY355_.jpg)

Markuu Heikinheimo, Verschueren Helsinki. This is a characterful neo baroque organ. Heikinheimo plays with sobrieity discretion and lyricism, his registrations often feel like chamber music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Wakefield on March 21, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
On a day like this (arguable, but...), 333 years ago, Johann Sebastian Bach was born in Eisenach:

https://youtu.be/X9Dh43kVL1Q

Thanks forever, revered Kapellmeister.



Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 21, 2018, 07:51:38 AM
Don't mean to act like beating dead horse, but a question remains.
Why do some players use sub- or non-optimal instruments for the recording?
A Difference in preference and aesthetic ideology- they think thier instruments are most effective?
Otherwise, a budget constraint?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 21, 2018, 07:54:06 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 21, 2018, 07:51:38 AM
Don't mean to act like beating dead horse, but a question remains.
Why do some players use sub- or non-optimal instruments for the recording?
A Difference in preference and aesthetic ideology- they think thier instruments are most effective?
Otherwise, a budget constraint?

An organist recently grumbled to me very bitterly about the cost of hiring the Martini Groningen for a recording, I don't know what the numbers are.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 21, 2018, 08:32:56 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 21, 2018, 07:51:38 AM
Don't mean to act like beating dead horse, but a question remains.
Why do some players use sub- or non-optimal instruments for the recording?
A Difference in preference and aesthetic ideology- they think their instruments are most effective?
Otherwise, a budget constraint?

I'm sure that most performers don't think of the instrument they use as sub-optimal. It's their choice... or their instrument. For one, each organ that one is not familiar with makes studying, performing, and recording a work manifold more difficult and time-consuming than operating on an instrument with which one is familiar with. Not having to find and voice each work for that particular instrument... not having to get to know and get around the kinks of each v. individual instrument and its acoustic. And you have to have the opportunity to rehearse sufficiently, which isn't necessarily given. So people make the best of what they have within reach and ability. Occasionally organists set out to record on instruments specifically because of the instrument and not because of their relationship with the instrument (Alain III would be such an example). The idea of sub-optimal is largely a question of our taste and the changing aesthetic (and research, perhaps).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 25, 2018, 10:55:35 PM
(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61ZuVnCmwYL._SS500.jpg)

Bram Beekman Orgelbuchlein at Middelburg. I think this is a great release! It has a more cathedral feel than the Orgelbuchlein from Vollenhove in his complete Bach, less chamber and less intimate, this may be the result of sound engineering.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 27, 2018, 05:07:36 PM
Bought this today!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 27, 2018, 09:09:08 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 27, 2018, 05:07:36 PM
Bought this today!

That one's been out of print since forever. I guess it's back. I've always been curious about it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 27, 2018, 09:20:21 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 25, 2018, 10:55:35 PM
(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61ZuVnCmwYL._SS500.jpg)

Bram Beekman Orgelbuchlein at Middelburg. I think this is a great release! It has a more cathedral feel than the Orgelbuchlein from Vollenhove in his complete Bach, less chamber and less intimate, this may be the result of sound engineering.

Yeah, I like it very much, too. But I still give my vote to the Vollenhove issue, partly because I (slightly) prefer the A. Bosch (1686) / F.C. Schnitger (1720) organ in Vollenhove. The De Rijckere et al organ in Middelburg is an interesting one, too, though, with its mixture of French/Flemisch and Dutch/German influences.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 28, 2018, 12:19:18 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 27, 2018, 09:09:08 PM
That one's been out of print since forever. I guess it's back. I've always been curious about it.

Yes; Decca Italy did, a little while ago. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)

I long, long had the twofer of famous works from Hurford - I remember a grand, organum plenum-heavy approach, but that may just have been a matter of the works selected.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 28, 2018, 03:21:00 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 28, 2018, 12:19:18 AM
Yes; Decca Italy did, a little while ago. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)

I long, long had the twofer of famous works from Hurford - I remember a grand, organum plenum-heavy approach, but that may just have been a matter of the works selected.

You could be right about that twofer.

When I listened to the Hurford integral (some or even many years ago), I quite appreciated his way of playing, but when returning to it in the years afterwards I noticed a less and less positive (personal) 'connection' with the instruments.

Like f.i. Alain 2, Koopman, Vad, Preston, Stockmeier (and probably more), the former Hurford boxset was grouped in genre, which a.o. meant a whole lot of heavy free works on a limited amount of discs. I personally prefer the 'recital' grouping, with more variety per disc.
Not sure what the new boxset is like though.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 28, 2018, 03:26:12 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 28, 2018, 03:21:00 AM
You could be right about that twofer.

When I listened to the Hurford integral (some or even many years ago), I quite appreciated his way of playing, but when returning to it in the years afterwards I noticed a less and less positive (personal) 'connection' with the instruments.

Like f.i. Alain 2, Koopman, Vad, Preston, Stockmeier (and probably more), the former Hurford boxset was grouped in genre, which a.o. meant a whole lot of heavy free works on a limited amount of discs. I personally prefer the 'recital' grouping, with more variety per disc.
Not sure what the new boxset is like though.

The Hurford twofer, certainly this one:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7924717--j-s-bach-great-organ-works

is a broad selection from the integral, and not two of the CDs from the set.

And yes, I also dislike his choice of organs more today.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 28, 2018, 06:45:45 AM
I knew that Hurford is not popular on the thread. Also, the Jacques Amade set has been scarsely discussed. Any info or thoughts on the set? Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 28, 2018, 10:30:10 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 28, 2018, 06:45:45 AM
I knew that Hurford is not popular on the thread. Also, the Jacques Amade set has been scarsely discussed. Any info or thoughts on the set? Thanks a lot.

For what it's worth, I didn't mean my comment about Hurford as outright criticism or as a statement of dislike. I used to dig that "Best-of" Twofer. In fact, there was a time when I thought that that's the quintessential Bach sound. Granted, I've listened to a lot more Bach since then and my taste has become more Catholic (and occ. instrument-focused), but there's still a soft spot in my heart for that disc and I must say that I'm intrigued about the set myself.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 28, 2018, 10:58:43 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 28, 2018, 06:45:45 AM
I knew that Hurford is not popular on the thread. Also, the Jacques Amade set has been scarsely discussed. Any info or thoughts on the set? Thanks a lot.

So far, I find good things in (almost) every Bach organ disc or boxset that I have listened to. :)

Hurford doesn't belong to my first choices, but I can appreciate his consequent approach, which leans towards the no nonsense and a bit heavy side. But, as with some other performers, nowadays I just wish he had picked better instruments. I recall that, to my ears, some of his choices sounded downright unfit for Bach.

Amade: nothing especially wrong with it, nothing especially great. I do have the boxset, but only after a couple of months a discovered that a few tracks sounded 'scratched'. I dowloaded one of them, and that one sounded scratched/damaged, too. Which could mean that there's something wrong with the used mastertape. I'm sorry that I forgot which tracks on which disc/volume had that problem, though.

I dunno which integrals you already have, but if you want to go French, try to get Vernet or one of the Alains. If available (for decent prices), of course.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 28, 2018, 11:23:15 AM
For those who are interested, the Hurford set here for 50 Euro's:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/johann-sebastian-bach-saemtliche-orgelwerke/hnum/7780128
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 28, 2018, 06:47:21 PM
Thank you for the response. Very informative to a beginner like me. I got Vernet, Alain 2, Amade, Hansler, Preston, Corti, Isoir, plus Weinberger and Stockmeier on Spotify. I also like Beekman on Youtube.
I want the  Kooiman Corona set. Any realistic chance for a reissue in near future?

Quote from: Marc on March 28, 2018, 10:58:43 AM
So far, I find good things in (almost) every Bach organ disc or boxset that I have listened to. :)

Hurford doesn't belong to my first choices, but I can appreciate his consequent approach, which leans towards the no nonsense and a bit heavy side. But, as with some other performers, nowadays I just wish he had picked better instruments. I recall that, to my ears, some of his choices sounded downright unfit for Bach.

Amade: nothing especially wrong with it, nothing especially great. I do have the boxset, but only after a couple of months a discovered that a few tracks sounded 'scratched'. I dowloaded one of them, and that one sounded scratched/damaged, too. Which could mean that there's something wrong with the used mastertape. I'm sorry that I forgot which tracks on which disc/volume had that problem, though.

I dunno which integrals you already have, but if you want to go French, try to get Vernet or one of the Alains. If available (for decent prices), of course.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 28, 2018, 09:30:49 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 28, 2018, 06:47:21 PM
Thank you for the response. Very informative to a beginner like me. I got Vernet, Alain 2, Amade, Hansler, Preston, Corti, Isoir, plus Weinberger and Stockmeier on Spotify. I also like Beekman on Youtube.

I must say, that's already an impressive list. Following my own taste (of course), then I would do a search for Helmut Walcha (a bit stiff, but considered 'mandatory', if something like that exists), Walter Kraft (more adventurous than Walcha, and some interesting organs), the 'Berlin Classics' set on (with a lot of good ole German organists on mostly pre-restored German Silbermanns) and Bernard Foccroulle (more flexible than Weinberger, historic organs).

As mentioned earlier, the Kooiman & pupils boxset (Aeolus) is a gem, but also expensive.

Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 28, 2018, 06:47:21 PM
I want the  Kooiman Corona set. Any realistic chance for a reissue in near future?

From years ago, I recall some rumours about Brilliant Classics reissuing either Beekman or Kooiman 2 (Coronata) or even Kooiman 1 (only issued on vinyl before), but since they've picked Stefano Molardi to record an entirely new integral, I doubt that it will happen in the near future.
I've been so lucky that, around 2009/2010, when my renewed organ fascination started, there were still a dozen volumes available of the already OOP Kooiman 2. With the help of a good organ friend and the national library (Netherlands) I managed to grab them. It's a great set indeed, with only Die Kunst der Fuge as a minor disappointment IMO. It's been a long time since I last listened to that, but I recall a certain sameness in the chosen registrations. For instance, I have vague memories about listening to Cpt 1-4 and thinking "now come on, throw something different in!" But maybe my memories have run away with reality...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 28, 2018, 11:45:07 PM
I listened to about half an hour of Amade's CU3. It's a nice enough organ and well enough recorded, Vertus in Champagne. I'm not sure he uses it very imaginatively, but the real problem is in the rhythm and the touch, which somehow never let the music get off the page and fly. Tempos are swift -- but no brio.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 29, 2018, 01:54:17 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 28, 2018, 11:45:07 PM
I listened to about half an hour of Amade's CU3. It's a nice enough organ and well enough recorded, Vertus in Champagne. I'm not sure he uses it very imaginatively, but the real problem is in the rhythm and the touch, which somehow never let the music get off the page and fly. Tempos are swift -- but no brio.

My own taste considered, Amade's mainly interesting for the completists.

Then there's this other French-speaking bloke, Canadian Bernard Lagacé, who's completed a respectful integral (from what I've heard so far), including Goldbergs, the WTC and other interesting stuff, but, as Premont mentioned earlier, unfortunately he uses a flat sounding organ thoughout the entire integral (Beckerath, Conception Church, Montréal, Canada). |Also very difficult to obtain, as far as I can see.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 29, 2018, 02:50:44 PM
If you exclusively focuse on the sound of instrument and ignore the performance, what set/disc offers the best recording? Perhaps the set by Kooiman pupils? I understand the skepticism on the Amade's and Corti's instruments.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on March 30, 2018, 03:49:08 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 29, 2018, 02:50:44 PM
If you exclusively focuse on the sound of instrument and ignore the performance, what set/disc offers the best recording? Perhaps the set by Kooiman pupils? I understand the skepticism on the Amade's and Corti's instruments.

The Kooiman & pupils set is on the bright and grand Silbermann organs, which is not to my personal taste in Bach.

Q

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 30, 2018, 04:25:12 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 29, 2018, 02:50:44 PM
If you exclusively focuse on the sound of instrument and ignore the performance, what set/disc offers the best recording? Perhaps the set by Kooiman pupils? I understand the skepticism on the Amade's and Corti's instruments.

I've not heard the Aeolus Kooiman in high resolution. At a normal bitrate it's not better recorded than many others.

Not many organ recordings bring a truthful sense of the cathedral into your living room, but there is this one

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/105/MI0003105313.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 30, 2018, 05:42:20 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 29, 2018, 02:50:44 PM
If you exclusively focuse on the sound of instrument and ignore the performance, what set/disc offers the best recording? Perhaps the set by Kooiman pupils? I understand the skepticism on the Amade's and Corti's instruments.

Do you mean the type of instrument focusing on the organ builder, or do you mean the recorded sound focusing on the engineer?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 30, 2018, 07:17:38 AM
As to the Aeolus set with Kooiman and his pupils, I can attest to the sound. It is State of the art, but it requires of course matching equipment, if you have, this set is one of the best recorded ever.
In the olden days I recorded many a time the Schnitger organ in Groningen when a guest organist was in town. Just two microphones and a DAT recorder. I got excellent results with this set up. The placing of the microphones is all.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 30, 2018, 10:41:58 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 30, 2018, 05:42:20 AM
Do you mean the type of instrument focusing on the organ builder, or do you mean the recorded sound focusing on the engineer?
The type of instrument please. Sorry about my mis-wording. Which disc/set offers good/best instrument with good sound?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 30, 2018, 12:51:07 PM
Quote from: Que on March 30, 2018, 03:49:08 AM
The Kooiman & pupils set is on the bright and grand Silbermann organs, which is not to my personal taste in Bach.

Funny how listening experiences can differ. :)

What's the definition of 'grand'... I mean, they're all rather moderate III/P and II/P (manuals/Pedal) organs, and, IIRC, none of them has got a 32 ft pedal stop.
I.c. brightness: I like brightness very much in Bach because it brings more clarity, but to my ears the French Silbermanns of this Aeolus set sound less bright that most Schnitgers or other North German/Dutch baroque organs.
IMO, the charms of the French Silbermanns are the warm sound and the beautiful 'granular' reed stops. I'm happy that I own a well-played and very well recorded Bach organ integral with this different, more 'Southern', baroque sound.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 30, 2018, 01:07:33 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 30, 2018, 10:41:58 AM
The type of instrument please. Sorry about my mis-wording. Which disc/set offers good/best instrument with good sound?

Foccroulle, Alain III, Kooiman and pupils. But you know some of the out of print Dutch cycles - Wiersma, Kooiman, Beekman are well enough recorded too, presumably by Harry and his mates dangling a couple of microphones.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 30, 2018, 01:08:49 PM
Ewald Kooiman, shortly before his untimely death, playing Bach on the Andreas Silbermann organ in Marmoutier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et-IBlSJqV8

Added: (former) Kooiman pupil Ute Gremmel-Geuchen in Villingen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFJgzB3mXkg
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 30, 2018, 01:53:16 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2018, 01:07:33 PM
Foccroulle, Alain III, Kooiman and pupils. But you know some of the out of print Dutch cycles - Wiersma, Kooiman, Beekman are well enough recorded too, presumably by Harry and his mates dangling a couple of microphones.

What I also would suggest, when it is about organ sound as such (and not about interpretation).
I would add Koopman, who plays on a number of very important North German style organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 30, 2018, 01:57:16 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2018, 01:07:33 PM
Foccroulle, Alain III, Kooiman and pupils. But you know some of the out of print Dutch cycles - Wiersma, Kooiman, Beekman are well enough recorded too, presumably by Harry and his mates dangling a couple of microphones.

Yeah, quite possible, after all they were all recorded just around Harry's corner.

I think that, spread across churches throughout Europe (and beyond), you can find a lot of beautiful organ CDs in very limited editions, played by skillful yet internationally unknown organists, many of them recorded by passionate music lovers.
When they're sold out, they're sold out for eternity.
(Amen.)

There's a world of unknown beauty hiding from all of us.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 30, 2018, 02:04:37 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 30, 2018, 01:57:16 PM
Yeah, quite possible, after all they were all recorded just around Harry's corner.

I think that, spread across churches throughout Europe (and beyond), you can find a lot of beautiful organ CDs in very limited editions, played by skillful yet internationally unknown organists, many of them recorded by passionate music lovers.
When they're sold out, they're sold out for eternity.
(Amen.)

There's a world of unknown beauty hiding from all of us.

Geesh I knew I should not have said this.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 30, 2018, 02:23:51 PM
Sound great, especially the second one by the pupil!
Quote from: Marc on March 30, 2018, 01:08:49 PM
Ewald Kooiman, shortly before his untimely death, playing Bach on the Andreas Silbermann organ in Marmoutier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et-IBlSJqV8

Added: (former) Kooiman pupil Ute Gremmel-Geuchen in Villingen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFJgzB3mXkg
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 30, 2018, 02:25:25 PM
Quote from: Harry's corner on March 30, 2018, 02:04:37 PM
Geesh I knew I should not have said this.

Why?

If you think I was deliberately mocking you, then I can (re)assure you: I was not.

Once upon a time, I sang in a choir, and we were recorded several times by local music lovers, also with only 2 mikes and DAT or MiniDisc equipment. Of course, the choir was only a happy bunch of amateur students (with one very bad tenor), but the recordings sounded excellent. I also have a twofer of recordings of the Martinikerk organ, done by the lads of Martinikerk Avondtmusyck, and they're excellent, too. They also use just 2 mikes, probably more or less like you did.

It's just that your (more or less) new username challenged me to react to Mandryka's post, because he was specifically referring to Dutch organ discs. And many of those discs, whether you and I like it or not, were recorded just around your (and my) corner.

I'm quite happy to live around that corner by the way, with all those beautiful organs nearby, and great Bach (and other) performances at hand.
My guess is that you feel the same.

Happy Easter weekend! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 30, 2018, 02:27:23 PM
Thank you. I will buy them within this year!
Listening Weinberger nowadays. Some discs have very deep, excessive reverb and other have none at all. Weird.

Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2018, 01:07:33 PM
Foccroulle, Alain III, Kooiman and pupils. But you know some of the out of print Dutch cycles - Wiersma, Kooiman, Beekman are well enough recorded too, presumably by Harry and his mates dangling a couple of microphones.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 30, 2018, 02:48:42 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 30, 2018, 02:27:23 PM
Thank you. I will buy them within this year!
Listening Weinberger nowadays. Some discs have very deep, excessive reverb and other have none at all. Weird.

You'll find that with almost each and every set.
When a church has very dry acoustics, then you can hear that in the recording, unless the engineers decide to add some artificial reverb, which in almost every case results in a very unnatural sound.

On some discs, Weinberger plays organs in small village churches, but he also recorded a volume on the large Silbermann in the extremly 'spatial' Dresdner Hofkirche. Soundwise, that's a universe of difference.

I once attended a concert in the Dutch village Uithuizermeeden. Wolfgang Zerer playing a beautiful Hinsz organ in a church with almost no reverb. I didn't dislike it, but afterwards I had a rather severe headache (I'm an almost chronic sufferer from headache, which can be a problem when music is your passion ;)). The same with a concert of Elly Kooiman in Peize. The acoustics there were even drier/shorter, and she ended the recital with Bach's BWV 548. The plenum sound thundered into my ears without any mercy. When I arrived home I immediately dived into the bed, and the sound of the last bars, still thumping in my body, escaped through my belly button.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 30, 2018, 02:54:48 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 30, 2018, 02:25:25 PM
Why?

If you think I was deliberately mocking you, then I can (re)assure you: I was not.

Once upon a time, I sang in a choir, and we were recorded several times by local music lovers, also with only 2 mikes and DAT or MiniDisc equipment. Of course, the choir was only a happy bunch of amateur students (with one very bad tenor), but the recordings sounded excellent. I also have a twofer of recordings of the Martinikerk organ, done by the lads of Martinikerk Avondtmusyck, and they're excellent, too. They also use just 2 mikes, probably more or less like you did.

It's just that your (more or less) new username challenged me to react to Mandryka's post, because he was specifically referring to Dutch organ discs. And many of those discs, whether you and I like it or not, were recorded just around your (and my) corner.

I'm quite happy to live around that corner by the way, with all those beautiful organs nearby, and great Bach (and other) performances at hand.
My guess is that you feel the same.

Happy Easter weekend! :)

I forgot the smiley. Sorry about that.
I am actually very happy I made all those recordings and I still treasure them. I mastered and edited them in the USVA studio in Groningen, where I also did quite some recording, especially chamber music. But those days are over now, and I happily listen to efforts of others. We are both fortunate to live so near all those beautiful organs, and occasionally I am able to play also.
And I found your Harry's corner word play well found as related to the Martini church which is almost around our corner.
Happy easter weekend for you and yours too.






Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 30, 2018, 02:56:58 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 30, 2018, 02:27:23 PM
Thank you. I will buy them within this year!
Listening Weinberger nowadays. Some discs have very deep, excessive reverb and other have none at all. Weird.

Of course that is not weird :)
Every church has its own reverb, some long some short. Its very difficult to correct this in recording. Freiburg is notorious about 6-9 seconds if not more.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 30, 2018, 03:03:27 PM
Quote from: Harry's corner on March 30, 2018, 02:54:48 PM
I forgot the smiley. Sorry about that.
I am actually very happy I made all those recordings and I still treasure them. I mastered and edited them in the USVA studio in Groningen, where I also did quite some recording, especially chamber music. But those days are over now, and I happily listen to efforts of others. We are both fortunate to live so near all those beautiful organs, and occasionally I am able to play also.
And I found your Harry's corner word play well found as related to the Martini church which is almost around our corner.
Happy easter weekend for you and yours too.

Ha, USVA. The old one, in the Oude Boteringestraat?
Happy memories for me, too. But mainly related to movie-watching and debating about literature (and too much drinking afterwards).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 30, 2018, 03:05:35 PM
I do not like the organ recordings without reverb, and I thought that it was typical of a novice. Somehow I assumed that connoisseurs tend to prefer dry recordings of organ without reverb. But you appear to be otherwise. 
Quote from: Marc on March 30, 2018, 02:48:42 PM
You'll find that with almost each and every set.
When a church has very dry acoustics, then you can hear that in the recording, unless the engineers decide to add some artificial reverb, which in almost every case results in a very unnatural sound.

On some discs, Weinberger plays organs in small village churches, but he also recorded a volume on the large Silbermann in the extremly 'spatial' Dresdner Hofkirche. Soundwise, that's a universe of difference.

I once attended a concert in the Dutch village Uithuizermeeden. Wolfgang Zerer playing a beautiful Hinsz organ in a church with almost no reverb. I didn't dislike it, but afterwards I had a rather severe headache (I'm an almost chronic sufferer from headache, which can be a problem when music is your passion ;)). The same with a concert of Elly Kooiman in Peize. The acoustics there were even drier/shorter, and she ended the recital with Bach's BWV 548. The plenum sound thundered into my ears without any mercy. When I arrived home I immediately dived into the bed, and the sound of the last bars, still thumping in my body, escaped through my belly button.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 30, 2018, 03:15:19 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 30, 2018, 03:05:35 PM
I do not like the organ recordings without reverb, and I thought that it was typical of a novice. Somehow I assumed that connoisseurs tend to prefer dry recordings of organ without reverb. But you appear to be otherwise.

It depends... I'm very fond of the earlier mentioned instruments in Uithuizermeeden and Peize. And, at home, I'm in control of the volume.

Harry mentioned Freiberg (I think he meant the grand G. Silbermann in the Domkirche), which is indeed a large beast in a spatial cathedral.
In recordings, I recall a spatial sound in f.i. Alain 3, but a more closer or 'concentrated' sound on a (OOP) disc of Dutch organist Cor Ardesch. Comparing those two, I prefer the recording of Ardesch, because it shows more of the subtle beauties of all the various stops of this particular instrument, whilst the Alain recording presents a much more wide (and sometimes diffuse) sound. It's another proof that decisions of producer/engineer can be decisive; like how many microphones (of what kind) were used, what's the distance between instrument and microphones, et cetera.

EDIT: Since you apparently prefer The Big Baroque Cathedral Beasts, then Mandryka's suggestion 'Bach At Naumburg' (Robert Clark) could be a very good one for you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2JSgs6uUdQ
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 30, 2018, 04:54:17 PM
I also like the organs played by Piet Kee, especially those at St. Laurence and Martini churches. Plus, I like the organs, if not performance, by Kei Koito.


Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2018, 01:07:33 PM
Foccroulle, Alain III, Kooiman and pupils. But you know some of the out of print Dutch cycles - Wiersma, Kooiman, Beekman are well enough recorded too, presumably by Harry and his mates dangling a couple of microphones.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 30, 2018, 10:45:32 PM
According to this review of CD 11 of Weinberger's recording

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-6981/

QuoteFor some, the most interesting thing about this release will be organist Gerhard Weinberger's discussion of the relative merits of Silbermann organs--those constructed by Bach contemporary Gottfried Silbermann--for playing Bach's music. Although for decades it's been assumed that because Bach was the greatest organist of his time and was involved in many aspects of the organ building process, and because Silbermann was regarded as one of the greatest organ builders in the region of Germany where Bach lived and worked, the Silbermann instruments were ideal for Bach's music. Weinberger suggests that these assumptions in many cases are false--that in fact there are fundamental problems with Silbermann's philosophy of organ design, realized in significant structural components, that make performing many of Bach's works difficult if not impossible on at least some of these instruments. Specifically, this has to do with matters concerning lack of tonal independence in the pedal and lack of a "rich palette of foundation stops". No doubt Bach played these magnificent organs--there is well-documented evidence of such events in Dresden and Freiberg, for instance--but Weinberger makes a persuasive case for the likelihood that Bach preferred different instruments for his own music.

I have the booklet for the complete set but I just can't find the discussion alluded to in the review! Maybe it's just available in the release for CD 11 alone. Or maybe I've just overlooked it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 30, 2018, 11:40:57 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2018, 10:45:32 PM
According to this review of CD 11 of Weinberger's recording

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-6981/

I have the booklet for the complete set but I just can't find the discussion alluded to in the review! Maybe it's just available in the release for CD 11 alone. Or maybe I've just overlooked it.

Interestingly enough, Hans Joerg Albrecht told me a very similar thing just a few days ago, re: Bach not necessarily being overly fond of Silbermann organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 31, 2018, 12:09:40 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 30, 2018, 11:40:57 PM
Interestingly enough, Hans Joerg Albrecht told me a very similar thing just a few days ago, re: Bach not necessarily being overly fond of Silbermann organs.

I realize it sounds a bit boring, but even if Bach did not like certain organs, that would not stop me from liking them.

I.c. the questions of member Forever Electoral College: I think this is a list of organs which he probably likes in Bach.

Silbermanns in Freiberg (Domkirche, but also the Petrikirche)
Silbermann Dresden (Hofkirche, very spatial)
Schnitgers (et al) in Groningen (Martinikerk and Der Aa Kerk), Alkmaar (Laurenskerk), Zwolle (Grote of Michaëlskerk)
Garrels organ, Maassluis, NL
Schnitger in Hamburg (Jakobikirche)
Flentrop reconstructed baroque organ in Hamburg (Katharinenkirche)
Christian Müller organs in Haarlem and Leeuwarden, NL
Treutmann, Stiftskirche in Goslar-Grauhof
Raphaëlis & Lorentz organ in the cathedral of Roskilde (DK)
GoArt project Schnitger reproduction in the Örgryte New Church, Göteborg, Sweden
Ahrend organ in north German baroque style, San Simpliciano, Milan
Trost organ, Residenzschloß in Altenburg
Gabler organ, Basilica, Weingarten
JA Silbermann organ, Église Saint-Thomas, Strasbourg
Flentrop organ (baroque reconstruction), Duke University Chapel, Durham (North Carolina)

Of course, there are dozens and dozens more (especially in Germany) .... but I guess this would be a nice list to start with. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 31, 2018, 01:21:26 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 31, 2018, 12:09:40 AM
I realize it sounds a bit boring, but even if Bach did not like certain organs, that would not stop me from liking them.

And why should it?! The GDR Silbermann cycle, despite catching these instruments at a fairly low point in their modern lives, is one of my emotional favorites.

But it does dampen the claim or extreme eagerness to claim (as some might) that only Eastern Silbermann organs are proper for use with Bach.

I visited Weingarten on a reasonably recent biking-trip around Lake Constance. I had forgotten (for I must once have known) about the organ and took the substantial detour upon myself and my then-fiancee just because of the basilica. And when I stepped in and turned around it was an amazing revelation: Oh my, THIS is where I am!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 31, 2018, 01:33:55 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 31, 2018, 01:21:26 AM
And why should it?! The GDR Silbermann cycle, despite catching these instruments at a fairly low point in their modern lives, is one of my emotional favorites.

But it does dampen the claim or extreme eagerness to claim (as some might) that only Eastern Silbermann organs are proper for use with Bach.

Bach loved the North-German Hamburg organ(s), too, for instance. He only wasn't willing to donate a certain amount of Groschen in the church's money box, and therefore didn't get the Hamburg job.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 31, 2018, 01:21:26 AM
I visited Weingarten on a reasonably recent biking-trip around Lake Constance. I had forgotten (for I must once have known) about the organ and took the substantial detour upon myself and my then-fiancee just because of the basilica. And when I stepped in and turned around it was an amazing revelation: Oh my, THIS is where I am!

Yeah, the Weingarten is a 'exquisite titbit' (for ear AND eye). :)

Just curious, btw: is the then-fiancee your now-wife, or did you fall in love with the Königin der Instrumente, right before her eyes, which made her go her own way whilst saying: "OK Jenschen, I got it, one of us three has got to go!" ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 31, 2018, 01:39:30 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 30, 2018, 03:03:27 PM
Ha, USVA. The old one, in the Oude Boteringestraat?
Happy memories for me, too. But mainly related to movie-watching and debating about literature (and too much drinking afterwards).

Yes that's the one. Good memories for me too :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 31, 2018, 01:54:10 AM
Stefan Johannes Bleicher playing BWV 989 on the Schnitger (et al) organ of the Jacobi Kirche in Hamburg.
A beautiful display of the many stops and possibilities of this instrument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYDLZDt9bUE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnitger_organ_(Hamburg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 31, 2018, 02:44:57 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 31, 2018, 01:33:55 AM

Just curious, btw: is the then-fiancee your now-wife, or did you fall in love with the Königin der Instrumente, right before her eyes, which made her go her own way whilst saying: "OK Jenschen, I got it, one of us three has got to go!" ;)

Ha! Her words, precisely. No. As far as I wish to remember she said: "Quite alright, I see why you think her Queen, so long as I may be the princess." And she had no objections that the only music at our wedding party was a Bach Trio Sonata that I had transcribed for Viennese Schramml-music. :-)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 31, 2018, 05:45:10 AM
Great. Will look for recordings. Thanks a lot.
Quote from: Marc on March 31, 2018, 12:09:40 AM
I realize it sounds a bit boring, but even if Bach did not like certain organs, that would not stop me from liking them.

I.c. the questions of member Forever Electoral College: I think this is a list of organs which he probably likes in Bach.

Silbermanns in Freiberg (Domkirche, but also the Petrikirche)
Silbermann Dresden (Hofkirche, very spatial)
Schnitgers (et al) in Groningen (Martinikerk and Der Aa Kerk), Alkmaar (Laurenskerk), Zwolle (Grote of Michaëlskerk)
Garrels organ, Maassluis, NL
Schnitger in Hamburg (Jakobikirche)
Flentrop reconstructed baroque organ in Hamburg (Katharinenkirche)
Christian Müller organs in Haarlem and Leeuwarden, NL
Treutmann, Stiftskirche in Goslar-Grauhof
Raphaëlis & Lorentz organ in the cathedral of Roskilde (DK)
GoArt project Schnitger reproduction in the Örgryte New Church, Göteborg, Sweden
Ahrend organ in north German baroque style, San Simpliciano, Milan
Trost organ, Residenzschloß in Altenburg
Gabler organ, Basilica, Weingarten
JA Silbermann organ, Église Saint-Thomas, Strasbourg
Flentrop organ (baroque reconstruction), Duke University Chapel, Durham (North Carolina)

Of course, there are dozens and dozens more (especially in Germany) .... but I guess this would be a nice list to start with. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 31, 2018, 05:50:42 AM
Reminds me of the people who strongly favor California rollls over Edo-mae sushi, or New York Pizza over Pizza in Rome.
Also, I have a Russian friend who is bilingal. He prefers one of the English translations of Crime and Punishment to its original, Russian version.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 31, 2018, 01:21:26 AM
And why should it?! The GDR Silbermann cycle, despite catching these instruments at a fairly low point in their modern lives, is one of my emotional favorites.

But it does dampen the claim or extreme eagerness to claim (as some might) that only Eastern Silbermann organs are proper for use with Bach.

I visited Weingarten on a reasonably recent biking-trip around Lake Constance. I had forgotten (for I must once have known) about the organ and took the substantial detour upon myself and my then-fiancee just because of the basilica. And when I stepped in and turned around it was an amazing revelation: Oh my, THIS is where I am!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 31, 2018, 07:49:37 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 31, 2018, 05:50:42 AM
Reminds me of the people who strongly favor California rollls over Edo-mae sushi, or New York Pizza over Pizza in Rome Naples.
Also, I have a Russian friend who is bilingal. He prefers one of the English translations of Crime and Punishment to its original, Russian version.

I don't know about Crime & Punishment, but Nabokov's German "Lolita", in a translation supervised by Nabokov, takes the best of his own Russian original and his own English re-creation.

I think it's "The Saint" that was a flop in the original but hugely successful in its irreverent German dubbing?!

Happens, on occasion. And I would say that New York Pizza is probably on par with the original. New Yorkers made it an art; Neapolitans had to re-discover it when they realized that the rest of the world was looking at them as the source of something great. Pizza in regular Italian restaurants, however, is (or used to be, until maybe only 10 years ago) a disaster; it was considered tourist-trap food; a clichee; a poor man's meal.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 31, 2018, 08:02:53 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 31, 2018, 05:45:10 AM
Great. Will look for recordings. Thanks a lot.

I.c. the Flentrop in Durham, USA: you will probably enjoy this Contrapunctus 11 (from 00:59:28), played by Wolfgang Rübsam (issued on disc by Naxos).
To me, it's one of those many shattering, dramatic, dazzling and cathartic listening experiences that mister Bach's music can deliver... and it's addictive, too: after listening to it, I want to spend the rest of the day with him.
(I 'suffer' from this from about my 13th. ;))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LgkKgvsUao

Another fine Bach disc with this particular organ can be found in the Gothic catalogue: Joan Lippincott playing free works, a.o. BWV 565 and the ever fascinating 582.

https://www.amazon.com/Toccatas-Fugues-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B000003J9W/?tag=goodmusicguideco
https://www.gothic-catalog.com/Toccatas_and_Fugues_by_Bach_Lippincott_p/g-49093.htm
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 31, 2018, 08:51:33 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 31, 2018, 07:49:37 AM
I don't know about Crime & Punishment, but Nabokov's German "Lolita", in a translation supervised by Nabokov, takes the best of his own Russian original and his own English re-creation.

I think it's "The Saint" that was a flop in the original but hugely successful in its irreverent German dubbing?!

Happens, on occasion. And I would say that New York Pizza is probably on par with the original. New Yorkers made it an art; Neapolitans had to re-discover it when they realized that the rest of the world was looking at them as the source of something great. Pizza in regular Italian restaurants, however, is (or used to be, until maybe only 10 years ago) a disaster; it was considered tourist-trap food; a clichee; a poor man's meal.

When Scott Moncrieff's English translation of A la recherche du temps perdu came out, it was very fashionable in St Germain to say that you preferred it to the original by Proust.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 31, 2018, 09:38:55 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 31, 2018, 08:51:33 AM
When Scott Moncrieff's English translation of A la recherche du temps perdu came out, it was very fashionable in St Germain to say that you preferred it to the original by Proust.

;D I can so imagine it!

"Oh Dahlin', you absolutely must read it in the Moncrieff. It is really so much better, I'm afraid to say."

What a wonderful to humble-brag/lie that you've not only read it in the first place but in fact twice, in different languages.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 31, 2018, 10:32:47 AM
Excuse me for extending the discussion to an irrelevant matter. There was a famous master of forgery copies of Ukiyoe painting a few centuries ago in Shogunate Japan. His skills of forgery were so respected and admired that some of his forgery works became to have higher prices than the originals, which were copied by them. A few collectors were disappointed when they found that the works they had thought his forgery works and they bought were actually genuine originals.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on March 31, 2018, 10:39:44 AM
And being so well-versed in French to claim that the translation was better. I think only a fairly poorly written book could in principle improve in translation. E.g. Dan Brown (or maybe a notch above Dan Brown) but not Dante, Goethe, Proust etc.
Even in the cases when a genius translates something of very high quality as might be the case by some classics translated by well established poets and writers, possibly the German Shakespeare by Schlegel or some translations of Homer or other antique stuff, it cannot really get "better".
Nabokov is a special case, of course, because both versions would be originals in a sense. I somehow thought that he had already switched to writing in English with Lolita.

As far as organs are concerned, the different building principles and traditions are a beautiful cultural heritage of their own and therefore they have a right to exist and to be continued, even if they are not ideal for Bach (or some other music).
One would also expect that music by Bach that usually does very well in arrangement for totally different instruments would horribly suffer by not being played on the middle/north German instruments it was intended for.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on March 31, 2018, 11:19:45 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 31, 2018, 07:49:37 AM
I don't know about Crime & Punishment, but Nabokov's German "Lolita", in a translation supervised by Nabokov, takes the best of his own Russian original and his own English re-creation.

I think it's "The Saint" that was a flop in the original but hugely successful in its irreverent German dubbing?!

Happens, on occasion. And I would say that New York Pizza is probably on par with the original. New Yorkers made it an art; Neapolitans had to re-discover it when they realized that the rest of the world was looking at them as the source of something great. Pizza in regular Italian restaurants, however, is (or used to be, until maybe only 10 years ago) a disaster; it was considered tourist-trap food; a clichee; a poor man's meal.

Tell you what--one of the very BEST pizzas I ever had was in St. Petersburg Russia, a restaurant called La Strada two doors down from our hotel (Hotel Aster) on Bolshaya Konnyushenaya. Salmon pizza actually. I could not care less whether this is "authentic" (and yes, I've had it in Rome and NY as well)!  :P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 31, 2018, 01:20:13 PM
The organ sounds great. I will visit there. Since I am not a big fan of Rubsam, it is difficult to enjoy the music though the organ sound is good. Youtube carries all the songs by Lippincott, and they are wonderful. I will look for a CD. Thanks a lot.

P.s. Is the organ a little bright side? A lot of reverb as well.


Quote from: Marc on March 31, 2018, 08:02:53 AM
I.c. the Flentrop in Durham, USA: you will probably enjoy this Contrapunctus 11 (from 00:59:28), played by Wolfgang Rübsam (issued on disc by Naxos).
To me, it's one of those many shattering, dramatic, dazzling and cathartic listening experiences that mister Bach's music can deliver... and it's addictive, too: after listening to it, I want to spend the rest of the day with him.
(I 'suffer' from this from about my 13th. ;))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LgkKgvsUao

Another fine Bach disc with this particular organ can be found in the Gothic catalogue: Joan Lippincott playing free works, a.o. BWV 565 and the ever fascinating 582.

https://www.amazon.com/Toccatas-Fugues-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B000003J9W/?tag=goodmusicguideco
https://www.gothic-catalog.com/Toccatas_and_Fugues_by_Bach_Lippincott_p/g-49093.htm
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 01, 2018, 12:03:29 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on March 31, 2018, 01:20:13 PM
The organ sounds great. I will visit there. Since I am not a big fan of Rubsam, it is difficult to enjoy the music though the organ sound is good. Youtube carries all the songs by Lippincott, and they are wonderful. I will look for a CD. Thanks a lot.

P.s. Is the organ a little bright side? A lot of reverb as well.

A lot of reverb, yes. A bit too much for me, to be honest... but I can stand it.
I.c. brightness: the organ was built with North European baroque organs as example. In my experience, these organs mostly sound brighter than the Southern instruments.
I'm generalizing now, and maybe other members will think otherwise: the 'strong' points of the northern organs are the bright principal stops (adding a 'bonus' to the clarity), the strong points of the southern organs are the warm and 'granular' reeds.
But, again, this is a very generalizing generalisation. ;)

I only mentioned this one American organ, but there are more well-built (baroque) reconstructions around the country, built by firms like Fisk, Fritts, Brombaugh and Noack.
To check out some of them, here's a nice (limited) integral boxset of 11 cd's, played by George Ritchie.

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Organ-Works-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B000GW8RFC/?tag=goodmusicguideco
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 01, 2018, 12:48:02 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 01, 2018, 12:03:29 AM


I only mentioned this one American organ, but there are more well-built (baroque) reconstructions around the country, built by firms like Fisk, Fritts, Brombaugh and Noack.
To check out some of them, here's a nice (limited) integral boxset of 11 cd's, played by George Ritchie.

http://a-fwd.to/1b4JFkB (http://a-fwd.to/1b4JFkB)

Oh, I do like that set a lot! I don't love it, perhaps, and I certainly don't turn to it often enough... but whenever I do, I am totally charmed by the humble beauty of these modest-yet-very-neat instruments. So everything NOT that one might, at first and admittedly superficially, imagine with a set of "AMERICAN" organs (i.e. some perversely virtuosic blare-fest a la Virgil Fox).

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 01, 2018, 02:29:02 AM
What George Ritchie and Wolfgang Rubsam have in common is that they both studied with Helmut Walcha. In Ritchie's remarks on AoF, he talks about how Walcha's method for learning contrapuntal music was to learn each melody separately, and that the essence of Bach's contrapuntal music was to do with how you put the melodies together to make a whole greater than the sum of the parts. This is, of course, the thinking behind Rubsam's independent voices with independent affects.

I don't have Ritchie's set - I just have the Leipzig Chorales and the AoF. I'd very much like to hear his CU3 and trio sonatas.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 01, 2018, 06:00:04 PM
Yes, excessive reverb even for me. Btw, I like the organs played by Beekman. Do you know anything about them? Perhaps Dutch organs? I also like the communist organs in Berlin classics though the performance and the recording quality are uneven.

Quote from: Marc on April 01, 2018, 12:03:29 AM
A lot of reverb, yes. A bit too much for me, to be honest... but I can stand it.
I.c. brightness: the organ was built with North European baroque organs as example. In my experience, these organs mostly sound brighter than the Southern instruments.
I'm generalizing now, and maybe other members will think otherwise: the 'strong' points of the northern organs are the bright principal stops (adding a 'bonus' to the clarity), the strong points of the southern organs are the warm and 'granular' reeds.
But, again, this is a very generalizing generalisation. ;)

I only mentioned this one American organ, but there are more well-built (baroque) reconstructions around the country, built by firms like Fisk, Fritts, Brombaugh and Noack.
To check out some of them, here's a nice (limited) integral boxset of 11 cd's, played by George Ritchie.

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Organ-Works-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B000GW8RFC/?tag=goodmusicguideco
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 01, 2018, 09:49:15 PM
Did Wim van Beek record BWV 652?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 01, 2018, 10:51:00 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ISZRRnduL._SX522_PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)

I've been listening to Marie Claire Alain II's Leipzig Chorales.

It incarnes values which I associate with Leonhardt in WTC and AoF.

Drama which comes from phrasing and touch; tempos judged to allow the emotional possibilities to come out; rubato which doesn't prevent the listener from sensing a pulse; voices which are singing from the same hymn sheet rather than in tense madrigal like opposition. The sober colouration enhances the feeling of rapt seriousness.

The dominance of full organ makes the music sound closer to harpsichord than to symphony orchestra. That austerity, that way of recoiling from seducing the listener with tawdry colours, seems a good thing to me in this music if not everywhere. It makes it all cohere, and it helps me listen to the musical thoughts rather than to sounds and tones. I'm going to start a campaign, Back To Plenum. I may get tee shirts printed.

It's as if both Alain and Bach have abandoned themselves. The music is abstract in this sense: as a listener I'm not conscious that either the performer's or the composer's feelings are being projected. I don't feel as though I'm listening to someone sounding off or someone being artful. Yet it is expressive.

How is that possible? It must be an illusion. The siren song is making me forget that this is performed and composed by someone with blood and guts.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 06, 2018, 05:55:01 PM
What are pros and cons for Alain 2 vs. Alain 3?
I read positive reviews on the performance and recording sound  in No. 2 and the authentic instruments in No. 3, though.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on May 06, 2018, 09:10:28 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on May 06, 2018, 05:55:01 PM
What are pros and cons for Alain 2 vs. Alain 3?
I read positive reviews on the performance and recording sound  in No. 2 and the authentic instruments in No. 3, though.

I have been listening to both of these a lot recently, and I'm more and more impressed by Alain 2. What she does in the second recording, is create a tension in the music by letting the each voice in the counterpoint flourish, and she does it in a way which doesn't damage the unity and coherence of each piece. Her restrained registrations are ideal for this, because we aren't distracted from the music's structure by the colour of the organs, the effect is more like a string quartet than a symphony.  We're impressed by the music's structure, rather than by the timbres of the organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 06, 2018, 09:12:56 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 01, 2018, 09:49:15 PM
Did Wim van Beek record BWV 652?

Maybe he did (in the pre-digital period or for a Dutch radio broadcast), but, AFAIK, there is no recording available nowadays.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 06, 2018, 09:17:41 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on April 01, 2018, 06:00:04 PM
Yes, excessive reverb even for me. Btw, I like the organs played by Beekman. Do you know anything about them? Perhaps Dutch organs? I also like the communist organs in Berlin classics though the performance and the recording quality are uneven.

I apologize, I missed your question about the organs used by Beekman.
All organs are in the Netherlands, and they're built (and restored) by Dutch/German builders.

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Beekman.htm
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 07, 2018, 04:52:47 AM
Thank you. I will visit there one day.
Quote from: Marc on May 06, 2018, 09:17:41 PM
I apologize, I missed your question about the organs used by Beekman.
All organs are in the Netherlands, and they're built (and restored) by Dutch/German builders.

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Beekman.htm
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 23, 2018, 11:21:13 AM
(https://s7d1.turboimg.net/sp/b49220b8b607d1c60eb34216761fc3a9/mdgmdg3160127-.jpg)

Reissue on CD of a 1983 vinyl production with Ben van Oosten playing Bach (BWV 542, 529, 29 [arr. Dupré] and 768) in a straightforward way.
The instrument is the glorious Flentrop et al (lots of historic pipework) of the Grote of Onze-Lieve-Vrouwekerk in Breda, NL. The sound quality is great.
Van Oosten was 28 at the time, and clearly a huge talent. Through the years he developed himself into a specialist of the French romantic organ music.
If I would make a guess, then I'd say he loved playing the exuberant Dupré arrangement of the Sinfonia BWV 29 the most.

For myself: I enjoyed the disc because I do not mind about a straightforward Bach at all (au contraire), though at times I would have wished for more 'soul', especially in the Trio Sonata BWV 529.

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Orgelwerke-Bwv-529-542/dp/B076JF7M2C/?tag=goodmusicguideco
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 25, 2018, 01:49:22 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on May 06, 2018, 05:55:01 PM
What are pros and cons for Alain 2 vs. Alain 3?
I read positive reviews on the performance and recording sound  in No. 2 and the authentic instruments in No. 3, though.

Bit late to this... but: I've long enjoyed Alain 2... to the point of dismissing out of hand the idea of getting her digital/org.instrument cycle. Finally, when it was available at a bargain price, I caved and got Alain 3, too... fully expecting, still, to like it less than Alain 2, which is one of my go-to sets. (Certainly among the easily available ones.)

It turns out that I enjoyed Alain 3 just as much, or just about... even though I haven't done a side-by-side comparison.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 17, 2018, 12:02:25 AM
Newsish:

Alain 1 (!) looks to be issued on CD, at long last.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Gxjgidp1L._SL1500_.jpg) (http://a-fwd.to/6Z2CzNK)

(May not show up on Amazon.COM yet, but up on the European ones certainly.)

Also: Finally got Chapuis, which is so well liked here, but as the set starts with the Trio Sonatas (perhaps my fav. organ works), I was in for a let-down. Chapuis has a tendency to rush slightly -- and to introduce an unrest into the beat that I don't like. A hint -- only a small one, but still -- of Jean Guillou... very different from Alain, for example. Then I hit upon some of the Toccatas, though, and those were very good. (wrote down which ones, but can't find the bit of paper just now.)




Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 17, 2018, 01:01:30 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 17, 2018, 12:02:25 AM
Newsish:
Also: Finally got Chapuis, which is so well liked here, but as the set starts with the Trio Sonatas (perhaps my fav. organ works), I was in for a let-down. Chapuis has a tendency to rush slightly -- and to introduce an unrest into the beat that )


I have never been a great fan of Chapuis' Bach, and I have commented his style several times in this forum.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on July 17, 2018, 03:05:41 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 17, 2018, 01:01:30 AM

I have never been a great fan of Chapuis' Bach, and I have commented his style several times in this forum.

I agree with that!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: André on July 17, 2018, 05:33:24 AM
I like Chapuis, esp his Trio sonatas  ;D. An « alternative facts » take to the more settled approach often heard. Certainly closer to Preston than Alain, which I find lacking in the vitality department.The only impediment to my enjoyment is the 50 year old sound, which now sounds a mite tight and strident in the loud passages.

Generally speaking, Vernet is my preferred version, although he could use a bit of Chapuis' alacrity.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on July 17, 2018, 05:41:14 AM
Quote from: André on July 17, 2018, 05:33:24 AM

Generally speaking, Vernet is my preferred version, although he could use a bit of Chapuis' alacrity.

Also agreed!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 17, 2018, 05:46:38 AM
Quote from: André on July 17, 2018, 05:33:24 AM
... a bit of Chapuis' alacrity.


This is one of my problems with Chapuis. He is rushed and nervous, often uncomfortable to listen to. Bach needs a firmer hand, And what about his registrations?

My impression is, that he was too young at the time of recording. Many of the works had not yet matured in his imagination. Not unlike the situation with Molardi's recent set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: MickeyBoy on July 17, 2018, 09:17:29 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 31, 2018, 09:38:55 AM
;D I can so imagine it!

"Oh Dahlin', you absolutely must read it in the Moncrieff. It is really so much better, I'm afraid to say."

What a wonderful to humble-brag/lie that you've not only read it in the first place but in fact twice, in different languages.

It must have been pure Anglophile snobbery. Proust's mastery of the beauties of the French language far surpasses Scott Moncrieff's of English. Despite Gide's rejection of the MS. Changing subjects: I would like to know which English translation of Crime & Punishment the gentleman preferred. I have heard that many Russians believe that the French language is best suited for translations of Russian literature. The little bit I have read in the Pleiade series suggests there is truth to this.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 17, 2018, 10:26:26 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 17, 2018, 05:46:38 AM

This is one of my problems with Chapuis. He is rushed and nervous, often uncomfortable to listen to. Bach needs a firmer hand, And what about his registrations?
My impression is, that he was too young at the time of recording. Many of the works had not yet matured in his imagination. Not unlike the situation with Molardi's recent set.
Quote from: "Harry" on July 17, 2018, 03:05:41 AM
I agree with that!


Ah! I'm glad that I'm not alone with my impression of Chapuis. (Not that I couldn't have taken it.)
Incidentally, I didn't mind the sound as much -- and was, if anything, impressed how good it still was. (I assume we all have the same Music & Arts set.)


off topic

Quote from: MickeyBoy on July 17, 2018, 09:17:29 AM
It must have been pure Anglophile snobbery. Proust's mastery of the beauties of the French language far surpasses Scott Moncrieff's of English. Despite Gide's rejection of the MS. Changing subjects: I would like to know which English translation of Crime & Punishment the gentleman preferred. I have heard that many Russians believe that the French language is best suited for translations of Russian literature. The little bit I have read in the Pleiade series suggests there is truth to this.

Don't know about Crime & Punishment specifically, but there are certainly some languages that are more suited to translating into than others. That said, if the translator is good and confident enough, anything can be made to work. Then there are extra-lingual matters to consider... like in Nabokov, who either translated (some of) his works into English or outright re-wrote them in English (as in Lolita)... and then translated (himself?) a hybrid version into German... which he said combined the best of both worlds. (Or so I remember reading.)

And as far as a translation exceeding the original... I suppose that IS possible. There are films that have been hits in dubbed versions where they flopped in the original. And from my own experience (not-so-humble brag), I've been told by authors (and least one of which I can rule out any intent of flattery) that they thought that the translation exceeded the original. (The example can be found in this year's Bayreuth Almanac  (http://freunde-bayreuth.org/kontor).) Not a novel, of course, and nothing as complex as Remembrances of Things Past (I vastly prefer that title to the more literal translation one that's currently en vogue)... but still.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 18, 2018, 11:15:47 PM
 Goethe thought that Nerval's translation of Faust was better than the original.

Quote from: Johann Peter Eckermann, Conversations of Goethe, trans. John Oxenford, 1906

Sun., Jan. 3. 1830

He [Goethe] praised Gérard's [Nerval's] translation as very successful, although mostly in prose.

"I do not like," he said, "to read my 'Faust,' any more in German, but in this French translation all seems again fresh, new, and spirited."

"'Faust,'" continued he, "is, however, quite incommensurable, and all attempts to bring it nearer to the understanding are in vain. Also, it should be considered that the first part is the product of a somewhat dark state in the individual. However, this very darkness has a charm for men's minds, and they work upon it till they are tired, as upon all insoluble problems."

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 01, 2018, 10:27:46 AM
Weinberger's OOP complete set is sold for around $80 on Amazon, and it is tempting.
If, and only if, the set won't be reissued soon, I would like to buy the oop set.
Any thoughts? Any substantial possibility for a reissue of the Weinberger set?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 01, 2018, 10:37:20 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on August 01, 2018, 10:27:46 AM
Weinberger's OOP complete set is sold for around $80 on Amazon, and it is tempting.
If, and only if, the set won't be reissued soon, I would like to buy the oop set.
Any thoughts? Any substantial possibility for a reissue of the Weinberger set?

The original label stil lists it a little cheaper (however posting costs may differ):

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-S%E4mtliche-Orgelwerke/hnum/7006321
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 01, 2018, 10:42:03 AM
The texts that Weinberger wrote for the series are good and scholarly.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 01, 2018, 10:42:19 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 01, 2018, 10:37:20 AM
The original label stil lists it a little cheaper (however posting costs may differ):

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-S%E4mtliche-Orgelwerke/hnum/7006321

Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 01, 2018, 10:54:03 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 01, 2018, 10:42:03 AM
The texts that Weinberger wrote for the series are good and scholarly.

What is your/members' opinion about the recording and his performance ?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 01, 2018, 12:04:16 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on August 01, 2018, 10:54:03 AM
What is your/members' opinion about the recording and his performance ?

I think that for Art of Fugue, CU 3, the Leipzig Chorales, Orgelbuchlein and the early chorales they are exceptional; for the trio sonatas less so. About the rest I cannot say.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 01, 2018, 12:30:48 PM
FEC, I thought you already had the Weinberger?

Anyway, I must have mentioned this before in this short ;) thread, but I think Weinberger is a very reliable no nonsense Bach organist, with a fine ear for clarity in contrapunt. He's not the most poetic interpreter though.
He plays both 'big' organs in spatial acoustics and smaller ones in village churches, with a drier acoustics as result.

And he plays a lot of dubious and spurious works, which is an interesting bonus.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 01, 2018, 01:44:04 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 01, 2018, 10:42:03 AM
The texts that Weinberger wrote for the series are good and scholarly.

Yes,very good, but they are only included in the original individual releases, and not in the complete box (I own both).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 01, 2018, 01:55:15 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on August 01, 2018, 10:54:03 AM
What is your/members' opinion about the recording and his performance ?

A mixed bag, but worth the money. Particularly interesting (for me at least) are the many important historical organs he uses.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 01, 2018, 03:38:09 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 01, 2018, 01:44:04 PM
Yes,very good, but they are only included in the original individual releases, and not in the complete box (I own both).

IMHO, in such cases, the label (CPO or via jpc.de) should offer them online as pdf-files.
It's the same with the very extensive and informative liner notes of the orgininal vinyl issues of the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt cantatas series.
Since the reissues on compact discs, they aren't available anymore, neither on single issues nor in boxsets (to my knowledge, that is).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 02, 2018, 03:25:52 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on August 01, 2018, 10:54:03 AM
What is your/members' opinion about the recording and his performance ?

I started out quite cold on this... but have warmed up to it immensely. (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html)

Not just because it is the most complete set of Bach's organ works yet, but because the playing really isn't as stodgy as I first thought. It's just not flashy. But it can be lively, it always has rhythmic rigor (sometimes perhaps a bit much)... it reminds me of Stockmeier on occasion... and he uses wonderful organs. And the booklet, even in the box, is still VERY extensive, with hundreds of pages. They apparently trimmed the original texts (I don't have any original copies on hand to compare, but permont says so) but they still left much. It's the still the most extensive booklet of any such box I have.
Listening my way through Chapuis right now, that's only a set to make me appreciate Weinberger yet more. How can he open the 8th CD with the BWV 552 Prelude and then not edit out a total slip in the second bar. Little things like that wouldn't happen on the Weinberger set.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 02, 2018, 03:56:46 AM
Thanks Gents. I always listened to his renditions on Youtube, and I liked them. I will purchase the set at the label's web site.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 02, 2018, 11:40:07 AM
I want to ask a favour from the people with Weinberger's set.

Go play BWV 659, a Leipzig Chorale, track 2 CD 10. At Waltershausen. Not surprisingly there are some very deep notes.

Can you hear them in a realistic way on your hifi? What speakers are you using?

I'm not sure if what I'm hearing is the best it can sound - a sort of growl - I have Quad ESL 63 with Gradient subwoofers. .

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on August 02, 2018, 12:19:27 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 02, 2018, 11:40:07 AM
I want to ask a favour from the people with Weinberger's set.

Go play BWV 659, a Leipzig Chorale, track 2 CD 10. At Waltershausen. Not surprisingly there are some very deep notes.

Can you hear them in a realistic way on your hifi? What speakers are you using?

I'm not sure if what I'm hearing is the best it can sound - a sort of growl - I have Quad ESL 63 with Gradient subwoofers. .

Yes I hear the low notes , no growl, and I am using Avalon ceramique
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 02, 2018, 12:52:43 PM
Quote from: "Harry" on August 02, 2018, 12:19:27 PM
Yes I hear the low notes , no growl, and I am using Avalon ceramique

Cheers, when I'm ready to change speakers I'll check Avalons.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 03, 2018, 09:55:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 02, 2018, 11:40:07 AM
I want to ask a favour from the people with Weinberger's set.

Go play BWV 659, a Leipzig Chorale, track 2 CD 10. At Waltershausen. Not surprisingly there are some very deep notes.

Can you hear them in a realistic way on your hifi? What speakers are you using?

I'm not sure if what I'm hearing is the best it can sound - a sort of growl - I have Quad ESL 63 with Gradient subwoofers. .

The 'walking bass' (as it were)? (Track 3, I think, in any case.) Yes, I can hearmagine it rather clearly and well defined. My speakers don't go as low as those notes probably do (Thiel Audio SCS4T), but a low note can be made to appear very low to the ear. BWV 661 has some pretty low ones, too. Those rumble very neatly and lowly, too. Doesn't have the stomach-punching quality of a real low bass from a woofer, of course.

(I hope one can still get a Thiel Woofer, now that they are out of business. Always wanted one... but they are pricey. Especially in Europe.)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 03, 2018, 10:16:59 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 03, 2018, 09:55:14 AM
The 'walking bass' (as it were)? (Track 3, I think, in any case.) Yes, I can hearmagine it rather clearly and well defined. My speakers don't go as low as those notes probably do (Thiel Audio SCS4T), but a low note can be made to appear very low to the ear. BWV 661 has some pretty low ones, too. Those rumble very neatly and lowly, too. Doesn't have the stomach-punching quality of a real low bass from a woofer, of course.

(I hope one can still get a Thiel Woofer, now that they are out of business. Always wanted one... but they are pricey. Especially in Europe.)

Thanks. Yes, track 3 -- I noticed that mistake.

I must say, I think you need good bass if you listen to organ music and maybe for you a pair of subwoofers is the way to go, if you can get them integrated correctly. There are enough cases where the organist plays deeply on organs with big pipes,  and there you need powerful bass. If I don't use the Gradients with my ESLs it sounds fine, but in fact it sounds fine because the low bass response is so quiet. With the subs you realise that in fact you were just not hearing a part of the music. Of course the recording has to be good in the very low range too . . .

One consequence of good bass response is that you hear more of the action, more of the sound of feet on pedals, more chuff from the pipes . . .
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on August 03, 2018, 10:31:15 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 03, 2018, 10:16:59 AM
Thanks. Yes, track 3 -- I noticed that mistake.

I must say, I think you need good bass if you listen to organ music and maybe for you a pair of subwoofers is the way to go, if you can get them integrated correctly. There are enough cases where the organist plays deeply on organs with big pipes,  and there you need powerful bass. If I don't use the Gradients with my ESLs it sounds fine, but in fact it sounds fine because the low bass response is so quiet. With the subs you realise that in fact you were just not hearing a part of the music. Of course the recording has to be good in the very low range too . . .

One consequence of good bass response is that you hear more of the action, more of the sound of feet on pedals, more chuff from the pipes . . .

You simply need good equipment, and good speakers, if so, you don't need a Subwoofer, certainly not with Quad ESL. I had them aeons ago matched with the 33-303 Quad amplification, and there was more than enough bass, and yes also with the 32 feet pipes.
If you hear a growl, you better look at your amplification, and above all the CD player! Cabling is also an issue.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 03, 2018, 10:42:36 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on August 03, 2018, 10:31:15 AM
You simply need good equipment, and good speakers, if so, you don't need a Subwoofer, certainly not with Quad ESL. I had them aeons ago matched with the 33-303 Quad amplification, and there was more than enough bass, and yes also with the 32 feet pipes.
If you hear a growl, you better look at your amplification, and above all the CD player! Cabling is also an issue.

The DAC is very good so I don't think it's that (I don't play CDs) I have 33-303 in my spare system, at the moment I'm using 520f-44 in the main system. 520f is the studio version of the 606. The Cables? You mean speaker cables, interconnects, mains cables or what?

The reason I don't use the 303 with the ESLs is that they may need more power to drive them/ ESL 63s don't forget, not ESL 57s -- the 63s are a difficult speaker to drive.  But I'll swap them over and see the results.  I can assure you that the gradients, which were made for the ESL 63s, do greatly improve the bass, and the image. You're welcome to come and listen next time you're in London.

By the way, I want a valve amp -- but it would need to be more than 35W p c .
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on August 03, 2018, 10:50:40 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 03, 2018, 10:42:36 AM
The DAC is very good so I don't think it's that (I don't play CDs) I have 33-303 in my spare system, at the moment I'm using 520f-44. 520f is the studio version of the 606. The Cables? You mean speaker, connects, mains cables or what?

The reason I don't use the 303 with the ESLs is that they may need more power to drive them/ ESL 63s don't forget, not ESL 57s -- the 63s are a difficult speaker to drive.  But I'll swap them over and see the results.  I can assure you that the gradients, which were made for the ESL 63s, do greatly improve the bass, and the image.

By the way, I want a valve amp

I thought you would know when  I talk about cabling I meant interlinks and  loudspeaker cables.
Valve amps give a warmer sound but are less precise. But I like valve amps.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 03, 2018, 12:05:34 PM
Quote from: "Harry" on August 03, 2018, 10:50:40 AM
I thought you would know when  I talk about cabling I meant interlinks and  loudspeaker cables.
Valve amps give a warmer sound but are less precise. But I like valve amps.

I listened to an old Copland amp, hybrid integrated, which had a lovely autumnal golden sound through Tannoy Lancasters. I'm looking out for one. But valves are a bit scary . . .

I'm increasingly convinced that recording quality is a major factor in my bass issues, I'm listening now to Vogel's Georg Bohm CD, and the bass is tight. Before that I heard Wiersma  play some orgelbuchlein, and the bass sounds fine (though clearly the recording isn't as impressive as Vogel's)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 03, 2018, 12:40:37 PM
I have a valve headphone amp (nice compromise; you could never drive Thiels with valve amps... they EAT power, despite their delicate output). Valves aren't that scary, once you get used to it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 03, 2018, 12:55:17 PM
I just have this vision of going to play music and it just spits static at me, because one of the valves needs changing. What I'd really like is a classic Brit valve amp - Redford or Leak or Quad. But they aren't powerful enough for my ESL 63s which was really designed with big transistor amps in mind. I maybe should explore the more recent quads, to see  whether they have the warm magic of the old valve amps.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 03, 2018, 01:18:50 PM
Get backup valves. I finally did, just in case. Fortunately you don't need to spend a fortune on good valves; the whole "NOS" obsession is overrated. There's plenty good new stock available.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 04, 2018, 03:44:53 PM
Quote from: "Harry" on August 03, 2018, 10:50:40 AM
I thought you would know when  I talk about cabling I meant interlinks and  loudspeaker cables.
Valve amps give a warmer sound but are less precise. But I like valve amps.

I am in the league of valve amps as well. I use EL84, EL34, and KT88 amps, and everything, especially piano, sounds very good. 10W for tube amps is loud and powerful enough.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 04, 2018, 03:47:50 PM
Finished Chapuis  (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)tonight; the last two discs ring out on a conciliatory note: The concertos and various chorales. The bright registration that he uses consistently throughout the set works well here.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 04, 2018, 10:54:31 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on August 04, 2018, 03:44:53 PM
I am in the league of valve amps as well. I use EL84, EL34, and KT88 amps, and everything, especially piano, sounds very good. 10W for tube amps is loud and powerful enough.

Yes but unfortunately 10W will not be enough for my speakers, ESL 63s are particularly demanding.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 05, 2018, 05:58:12 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on August 03, 2018, 10:31:15 AM
You simply need good equipment, and good speakers, if so, you don't need a Subwoofer, certainly not with Quad ESL. I had them aeons ago matched with the 33-303 Quad amplification, and there was more than enough bass, and yes also with the 32 feet pipes.
If you hear a growl, you better look at your amplification, and above all the CD player! Cabling is also an issue.

The solution, I'm pleased and embarrassed to say, was simpler than that, I just needed to turn the subwoofer volume down a little. That track is useful for setting up subwoofers I think.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Elk on August 07, 2018, 02:23:10 AM
Mandryka, I'm glad the solution was so simple. I'm also glad to hear you're using subs with the ESL 63s, which, IMHO, need a bit of help in the low extreme. From what I've read, the Gradients should work admirably.

I finally had the time to listen to the Weinberger, and , yes, it does have fine extension  into the low 30s. One track I use when assessing extension is from an old Capriccio recording of Hannes Kästner playing BWV 639, Ich ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ. It too has clear lines with that 'walking' bass into the low 30s. For those 32' pipes, when I want to really test the lungs of the system (read: impress others), I turn up the gain on Peter Hurford's Mendelssohn recording.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 07, 2018, 02:35:23 AM
Quote from: Elk on August 07, 2018, 02:23:10 AM
Mandryka, I'm glad the solution was so simple. I'm also glad to hear you're using subs with the ESL 63s, which, IMHO, need a bit of help in the low extreme. From what I've read, the Gradients should work admirably.

I finally had the time to listen to the Weinberger, and , yes, it does have fine extension  into the low 30s. One track I use when assessing extension is from an old Capriccio recording of Hannes Kästner playing BWV 639, Ich ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ. It too has clear lines with that 'walking' bass into the low 30s. For those 32' pipes, when I want to really test the lungs of the system (read: impress others), I turn up the gain on Peter Hurford's Mendelssohn recording.

When you have very deep sounds, should you be able to feel it?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Traverso on August 07, 2018, 03:30:51 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 07, 2018, 02:35:23 AM
When you have very deep sounds, should you be able to feel it?

Sure,but be aware of your neighbours. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on August 07, 2018, 03:32:40 AM
Quote from: Traverso on August 07, 2018, 03:30:51 AM
Sure,but be aware of your neighbours. ;)

Part of the joy of listening to a fine organ in its space (feeling the power of the lower frequencies, I mean).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 07, 2018, 03:48:53 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 07, 2018, 03:32:40 AM
Part of the joy of listening to a fine organ in its space (feeling the power of the lower frequencies, I mean).

So when you're in the church listening to a very deep note on an organ, can you sense it through your feet, as it were?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on August 07, 2018, 03:59:15 AM
When the 16 and 32 pipes kick in, I feel it coming through my feet, and ending in my stomach. So it goes low, very low.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 07, 2018, 04:21:38 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on August 07, 2018, 03:59:15 AM
When the 16 and 32 pipes kick in, I feel it coming through my feet, and ending in my stomach. So it goes low, very low.

So this is what I'm feeling sometimes though the subs. Thanks, this is an aspect of music which is new to me!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Elk on August 07, 2018, 05:06:35 AM
Probably. A lot not only depends on the sub(s), but on the room. For example, one of my audio heroes is Dr. Floyd Toole, the man who basically created the double-blind loudspeaker test co-related with objective measurement to determine what object characteristics result in repeatably, winning results in listening tests, once described to me a recording studio that had been build on a concrete slab. When recordings were mixed, the engineers boosted the bass so that they could hear it, and the result was recordings with bloated bass when played back elsewhere. They built a wooden floor on top of the slab. The engineers could now feel the bass as well as hear it-- problem solved. In churches, as well as homes, a lot depends on whether the floor is suspended, or on grade. As for your subs, Madryka, they supposedly have useful output to 28 HZ, so what your might hear below that is hard to say, particularly since the Gradient subs are dipole, so there will be some, if not considerable, cancellation of notes. This is a weakness of dipoles.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on August 07, 2018, 05:32:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 07, 2018, 03:48:53 AM
So when you're in the church listening to a very deep note on an organ, can you sense it through your feet, as it were?

Quote from: "Harry" on August 07, 2018, 03:59:15 AM
When the 16 and 32 pipes kick in, I feel it coming through my feet, and ending in my stomach. So it goes low, very low.

Yes, indeed.  Part of why they call the organ the King of Instruments.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 07, 2018, 05:44:44 AM
Quote from: Elk on August 07, 2018, 05:06:35 AM
Probably. A lot not only depends on the sub(s), but on the room. For example, one of my audio heroes is Dr. Floyd Toole, the man who basically created the double-blind loudspeaker test co-related with objective measurement to determine what object characteristics result in repeatably, winning results in listening tests, once described to me a recording studio that had been build on a concrete slab. When recordings were mixed, the engineers boosted the bass so that they could hear it, and the result was recordings with bloated bass when played back elsewhere. They built a wooden floor on top of the slab. The engineers could now feel the bass as well as hear it-- problem solved. In churches, as well as homes, a lot depends on whether the floor is suspended, or on grade. As for your subs, Madryka, they supposedly have useful output to 28 HZ, so what your might hear below that is hard to say, particularly since the Gradient subs are dipole, so there will be some, if not considerable, cancellation of notes. This is a weakness of dipoles.

The space behind is padded with bass traps, they're about 1m from the wall.

(https://preview.ibb.co/cQDX1K/Speakers.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 07, 2018, 11:05:21 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 01, 2018, 10:37:20 AM
The original label stil lists it a little cheaper (however posting costs may differ):

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-S%E4mtliche-Orgelwerke/hnum/7006321

Good: I ordered the Weinberger set. Though the web site says €50, they only charged €42 plus 4 shipping.

Bad: As for the receipient's address on the order page, there was no section for state/province. Just a minute after placing the order, I realized it and sent a message to the customer service to add my state. Next day, they gave me an email and said that they cannot modify the address once an order is placed. I was speechless. Since the address they have includes a postal code, I hope it will be delivered, but we are talking about the U.S. Postal Service.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Alek Hidell on August 07, 2018, 07:07:22 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on August 07, 2018, 11:05:21 AM
Good: I ordered the Weinberger set. Though the web site says €50, they only charged €42 plus 4 shipping.

Bad: As for the receipient's address on the order page, there was no section for state/province. Just a minute after placing the order, I realized it and sent a message to the customer service to add my state. Next day, they gave me an email and said that they cannot modify the address once an order is placed. I was speechless. Since the address they have includes a postal code, I hope it will be delivered, but we are talking about the U.S. Postal Service.

You'll probably get it. I'm pretty sure I've had that situation before - or at least there was no state listed on the address label when it arrived. As long as the city and zip code are there, it should make its way to you.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 09, 2018, 02:02:10 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on August 07, 2018, 11:05:21 AM
Good: I ordered the Weinberger set. Though the web site says €50, they only charged €42 plus 4 shipping.

You aren't get slapped with the 19% VAT that you see already included in the price they advertise. It's the nifty thing buying from Europe; makes S&H seem virtually free.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 09, 2018, 06:33:05 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 09, 2018, 02:02:10 PM
You aren't get slapped with the 19% VAT that you see already included in the price they advertise. It's the nifty thing buying from Europe; makes S&H seem virtually free.
You perfectly answered my question.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 09, 2018, 10:14:20 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on August 09, 2018, 06:33:05 PM
You perfectly answered my question.

And... enjoy the listening!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 12, 2018, 02:20:42 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 03, 2017, 11:34:46 AM
According to Peter Williams the concept Arnstädter Gemeindechoräle was first used by Herman Keller in 1948, and includes the chorales BWV 715, 722, 726, 729, 732 and 738. They are not handed down as a specific group, They are characterized by bold harmonisations of the choral tunes with interspersed running scales and ornamentation. They were thought to be meant as accompaniment to the congregational singing, but their precise dating is uncertain. For practical reasons they are today included in the group "miscellaneous chorales" from BWV 690 and on. Most of the so called complete Bach organ sets include them. Walcha and AFAIK Heiller did not include them in their "integrals" from the early 1950es. I think Walter Kraft was the first to include them in an integral. As far as I remember Jacob's recordings of these does not stand particularly out, but it is a long time since I heard them,

Well I'm listening to Werner Jacob play them now for the first time, and I am very impressed!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 18, 2018, 02:00:51 PM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on August 07, 2018, 07:07:22 PM
You'll probably get it. I'm pretty sure I've had that situation before - or at least there was no state listed on the address label when it arrived. As long as the city and zip code are there, it should make its way to you.

Weinberger set has arrived. So fast. The liner note in question is in the box. It is more than 160 pages with a lot of pictures.  I tried to attach a pic, but the attachment function at GMG is a joke.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 19, 2018, 03:12:44 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on August 18, 2018, 02:00:51 PM
Weinberger set has arrived. So fast. The liner note in question is in the box. It is more than 160 pages with a lot of pictures.  I tried to attach a pic, but the attachment function at GMG is a joke.
The book I bought at Amazon arrived as well.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 21, 2018, 01:44:52 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on August 19, 2018, 03:12:44 PM
The book I bought at Amazon arrived as well.

Neat. I'd be interested what you think of the book.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Traverso on August 29, 2018, 04:25:22 AM
Very affordable price on this site.  :)

https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/cd-s-en-dvd-s/cd-s-klassiek/m1301982708-nieuw-19-sacd-bach-complete-organ-works-silbermann-orgels.html?c=be2da871b0d84f75c3056cc6db858f31&previousPage=lr

(https://s8.postimg.cc/rid30czph/AE-10761_gelb_perspektivisch.jpg)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/ta61valn9/img506bd5beed01c.jpg)

Only shipping to the Netherlands and Belgium.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 30, 2018, 10:22:37 PM
Quote from: Traverso on August 29, 2018, 04:25:22 AM
Very affordable price on this site.  :)

https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/cd-s-en-dvd-s/cd-s-klassiek/m1301982708-nieuw-19-sacd-bach-complete-organ-works-silbermann-orgels.html?c=be2da871b0d84f75c3056cc6db858f31&previousPage=lr

(https://s8.postimg.cc/rid30czph/AE-10761_gelb_perspektivisch.jpg)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/ta61valn9/img506bd5beed01c.jpg)

Only shipping to the Netherlands and Belgium.

Thanks for mentioning. I sent the link to a music loving friend, with whom I sometimes visit organ concerts up north NL.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Brian on September 02, 2018, 06:46:03 AM
Warner/Erato has just reissued Alain I, the cycle she recorded from 1959-67, in a 2018 remaster. The press material says it's the first ever release on CD. I haven't found much GMG discussion of Alain I, especially compared to II and III, which seem to be perennial top recommendations. Anyone know it? Anyone grabbing a copy of the new box?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on September 02, 2018, 04:49:43 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 02, 2018, 06:46:03 AM
Warner/Erato has just reissued Alain I, the cycle she recorded from 1959-67, in a 2018 remaster. The press material says it's the first ever release on CD. I haven't found much GMG discussion of Alain I, especially compared to II and III, which seem to be perennial top recommendations. Anyone know it? Anyone grabbing a copy of the new box?

I ordered it a couple of days ago, together with Lubimov's Mozart sonata set. But it's coming from Rarewaves, so it will need to cross the pond before I get it.

I have Alain II which I am not enthusiastic over. The chorales seem often bland and boring to me, as if she was recording them en masse  just to claim the paycheck.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 05, 2018, 07:41:25 PM
Quote from: Marc on August 01, 2018, 12:30:48 PM
FEC, I thought you already had the Weinberger?

Anyway, I must have mentioned this before in this short ;) thread, but I think Weinberger is a very reliable no nonsense Bach organist, with a fine ear for clarity in contrapunt. He's not the most poetic interpreter though.
He plays both 'big' organs in spatial acoustics and smaller ones in village churches, with a drier acoustics as result.

And he plays a lot of dubious and spurious works, which is an interesting bonus.

I love the set. Some of his interpretations are quite unique. The recording sound of some disks are sub-par with the excessive and deep echo, obscuring the notes. Great set anyway.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 09, 2018, 09:21:36 PM
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/gxEAAOSwgiRZwTPs/s-l300.jpg)

This is Kåre Nordstoga's second recording of Bach's trio sonatas. It is rather original.

The capture of the Hamburg Schnitger's sound gives a feeling of space. The three parts are in relief, the bass effectively receding back into the depths of the church: this is a three dimensional performance, sculpture and architecture in sound. Nordstoga's penchant for slow tempos is entirely consistent with his architectural vision  - it's as if the music gestures have the opportunity to float in the cathedral, to create spaces and structures.

For Nordstoga, the sonatas are far from a vehicle for showing off technique or instrument. Neither are they anything like a spontaneous expression of dancing celebration. If there is dance here, it's cosmic dance, and he makes the  affective content of the sonatas rich and strange. Basically Nordstoga has rethought the music through from scratch and he presents us with music with gravitas, seriousness. The universe is in this music. 

How strange to thing that this was probably music for a chamber trio. Nordstoga makes it sound like it could only be for a massive organ!

Modified meantone, though I'm not sure I could have guessed without looking it up.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 10, 2018, 05:09:44 AM

(http://https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2Bcr9fkAjL._SY355_.jpg)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2Bcr9fkAjL._SY355_.jpg)


On the other hand this recording of the Leipzig Chorales at Groningen seems to be to be much less successful. I think that very low sounds of the organ are not well caught by the sound engineers, and for me this makes the recording painful to listen to. Nordstoga really likes those low sounds!


I'd be interested if people hear it differently.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on September 10, 2018, 05:23:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 10, 2018, 05:09:44 AM
(http://https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2Bcr9fkAjL._SY355_.jpg)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2Bcr9fkAjL._SY355_.jpg)


On the other hand this recording of the Leipzig Chorales at Groningen seems to be to be much less successful. I think that very low sounds of the organ are not well caught by the sound engineers, and for me this makes the recording painful to listen to. Nordstoga really likes those low sounds!


I'd be interested if people hear it differently.

I agree, this is a very poor recording, and apart from this, it is a very difficult venue to record, many fail in that respect.  When I heard Suzuki play on this organ a couple of months ago, he was favouring to low registers too in a very aggressive way. The organ then produced an ugly tone as it always does if you treat it this way. Suzuki tried also his hand at a copy of Arp Schnitger organ in the Lutherse kerk, in Groningen, and what is a very fine instrument transformed into a ugly piece of sound, cleary the man did not learn from previous experiences.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 10, 2018, 12:34:14 PM
Thanks for those interesting comments.

Suzuki recorded a Bach CD on the Groningen Schnitger, I can't remember how it is - I've got a vague memory that he kept his foot off the very low registrations, while Nordstoga, on the other hand, seems to love them!

I listened this afternoon to some of Weinberger on the organ, it's CD 8 of the set, I thought it was rather good.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on September 10, 2018, 01:05:36 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 10, 2018, 12:34:14 PM
Thanks for those interesting comments.

Suzuki recorded a Bach CD on the Groningen Schnitger, I can't remember how it is - I've got a vague memory that he kept his foot off the very low registrations, while Nordstoga, on the other hand, seems to love them!

I listened this afternoon to some of Weinberger on the organ, it's CD 8 of the set, I thought it was rather good.

Agreed the Weinberger is quite good. The first volume of Suzuki's Bach in Groningen I found to be very good for I bought it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 10, 2018, 01:23:16 PM
I see you'll have the chance to hear Matteo Imbruno and Liuwe Taminga soon. I'm quite tempted to come and hear some concerts there - when I was in Utrecht I met someone who was born in Groningen, he studied with Koopman there - and the way he talked about it makes me very keen to see it. He was passionate about the Fresian language . . .
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 23, 2018, 07:59:06 AM
Continuing to explore Thruringia a bit more, today I'm visiting Arnstadt, listening to the Wender organ at New Church, which Bach played as a teenager. According to Christoph Wolff and  Markus Zepf in The Organs of J.S. Bach, A Handbook (I've just bought it and I'm very glad to have it)  it's well tempered.

This is a performance of the Vivaldi/Bach D minor concerto -- an anonymous organist, but I like the registrations. And the pedal at the end of the first movement is impressive!

https://www.youtube.com/v/DBRajRFydPA

and this is a strange performance of the lento from the G major trio sonata, but I think it's interesting because it shows how well balanced the organ is

https://www.youtube.com/v/cFyP3FLpoUo&t=70s

There's only one disc of it on record according to France orgue -- by Helga Schauerte, I'll listen to it tonight

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61hNhEONcLL._SX355_.jpg)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 23, 2018, 10:50:03 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 23, 2018, 07:59:06 AM
it's well tempered.

What's that?

Quote from: Mandryka
This is a performance of the Vivaldi/Bach D minor concerto -- an anonymous organist, but I like the registrations. And the pedal at the end of the first movement is impressive!

https://www.youtube.com/v/DBRajRFydPA

Not quite. It's Leonidas Melnikas
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on September 23, 2018, 02:44:19 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 23, 2018, 07:59:06 AM
Continuing to explore Thruringia a bit more, today I'm visiting Arnstadt, listening to the Wender organ at New Church, which Bach played as a teenager. According to Christoph Wolff and  Markus Zepf in The Organs of J.S. Bach, A Handbook (I've just bought it and I'm very glad to have it)  it's well tempered.

This is a performance of the Vivaldi/Bach D minor concerto -- an anonymous organist, but I like the registrations. And the pedal at the end of the first movement is impressive!

https://www.youtube.com/v/DBRajRFydPA

and this is a strange performance of the lento from the G major trio sonata, but I think it's interesting because it shows how well balanced the organ is

https://www.youtube.com/v/cFyP3FLpoUo&t=70s

There's only one disc of it on record according to France orgue -- by Helga Schauerte, I'll listen to it tonight

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61hNhEONcLL._SX355_.jpg)

Got to play this organ a while back,  very charming bright sounds in there. It's mostly reconstruction; there are only a few complete stops left from the original organ, but it is very successful. I think it's quite a shame that there are not more recordings on this (and other similar Thuringian) organs, less imposing but much more colorful than their Northern and Dutch counterparts.

edit: (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61xUFsTouvL._SS500.jpg)
This was recorded there too
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 23, 2018, 08:44:40 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 23, 2018, 10:50:03 AM
What's that?

Not quite. It's Leonidas Melnikas

I think that Wolff and Zepf use the term Well Tempered to mean any of the Werckmeiser Temperaments.

I saw a reference to Leonidas Melnikas in the notes after I posted but when I searched on the web for some sort of verification I couldn't find anything.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 23, 2018, 08:54:32 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on September 23, 2018, 02:44:19 PM
Got to play this organ a while back,  very charming bright sounds in there. It's mostly reconstruction; there are only a few complete stops left from the original organ, but it is very successful. I think it's quite a shame that there are not more recordings on this (and other similar Thuringian) organs, less imposing but much more colorful than their Northern and Dutch counterparts.

edit: (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61xUFsTouvL._SS500.jpg)
This was recorded there too

What's caught my attention listening to the Thumbergian organs is the great variety of symphonic timbres. I think in the past I've let the sound of Northern organs too much dominate my expectations about what Bach should sound like.

What did you make (if you've heard it) of Wilfrid Von Promnitz's AoF at Gräfandrola?

I haven't explored the Bach Contextueel recordings at all.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 24, 2018, 01:37:59 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 23, 2018, 08:44:40 PM
I think that Wolff ans Zepf use the term Well Tempered to mean any of the Werckmeiser Temperaments.

Maybe. I have seen it used a couple of times for Werckmeister III.

Quote from: Mandryka
I saw a reference to Leonidas Melnikas in the notes after I posted but when I searched on the web for some sort of verification I couldn't find anything.

The nearest we come may be this, but without mention of the instrument used (and possibly not the Arnstadt instrument):

https://www.amazon.com/Organ-Works-1-Bach/dp/B00003TFLD

and this:

https://www.amazon.de/Organ-Concerto-Minor-After-Vivaldi/dp/B075ZP62WN/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1537782387&sr=8-3&keywords=leonidas+melnikas
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 24, 2018, 01:45:21 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 23, 2018, 08:54:32 PM
What's caught my attention listening to the Thumbergian organs is the great variety of symphonic timbres. I think in the past I've let the sound of Northern organs too much dominate my expectations about what Bach should sound like.

The idea of Schnitger (or similar) instruments being ideal for Bach probably only holds true of the youthful works inspired by the North German school (works like BWV 531,532, 533, 535, 549, 550, 551, 565, 566 and a number of early chorale preludes/fantasies).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 24, 2018, 06:58:54 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2018, 01:45:21 AM
The idea of Schnitger (or similar) instruments being ideal for Bach probably only holds true of the youthful works inspired by the North German school (works like BWV 531,532, 533, 535, 549, 550, 551, 565, 566 and a number of early chorale preludes/fantasies).

I'm happy that I do not have any idea, actually.
If the reports are all authentic, then Bach has been positive about a more types of organs.
(I suffer from the same ;).)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2018, 08:37:40 AM
Here's the sort of sound that Bach would have known well I guess, on the Altenburg Trost

https://www.youtube.com/v/JY_VrJ2T8DM&feature=youtu.be

And what about this? Would he have been used to this sound on the Naumburg Hilderbrabdt (this is not for the squeamish)?

https://www.youtube.com/v/Bpr3JZIbejI&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 24, 2018, 10:49:41 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 24, 2018, 06:58:54 AM
I'm happy that I do not have any idea, actually.
If the reports are all authentic, then Bach has been positive about a more types of organs.
(I suffer from the same ;).)

Of course I did not express my own opinion in my former post.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 24, 2018, 11:13:54 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2018, 10:49:41 AM
Of course I did not express my own opinion in my former post.

I understood.

(I did, though. ;))
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 24, 2018, 11:17:54 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 24, 2018, 08:37:40 AM
Here's the sort of sound that Bach would have known well I guess, on the Altenburg Trost

https://www.youtube.com/v/JY_VrJ2T8DM&feature=youtu.be

And what about this? Would he have been used to this sound on the Naumburg Hilderbrabdt (this is not for the squeamish)?

https://www.youtube.com/v/Bpr3JZIbejI&feature=youtu.be

Thanks for both of them. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: André on September 24, 2018, 11:46:31 AM
Any comments on that one? Klais instruments have an excellent reputation.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71LhzdleokL._SX522_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91aeI0hg8oL._SX522_.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Allemagne07_08_0793_Himmerod.JPG)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 24, 2018, 12:30:37 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 24, 2018, 08:37:40 AM
Here's the sort of sound that Bach would have known well I guess, on the Altenburg Trost

And what about this? Would he have been used to this sound on the Naumburg Hilderbrabdt (this is not for the squeamish)?

Maybe even Bach was a bit surprised by the massiveness of the Naumburg organ, - just a thought. If he wasn't, he wanted his music to sound completely different from what we usually think, but how?


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2018, 12:54:05 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 24, 2018, 12:30:37 PM
Maybe even Bach was a bit surprised by the massiveness of the Naumburg organ, - just a thought. If he wasn't, he wanted his music to sound completely different from what we usually think, but how?

It's a very indulgent improvisation that, wallowing in the Unda Maris. In Wolff's book on Bach's organs he has a translation of Bach's report on the Hildenbrandt organ at Naumburg - Bach singles out the Unde Maris for special mention, "a stop named Unda Maris has been provided" - in English that sounds as though Bach is distancing himself a bit from it, as if it's something new and strange for him. I don't know if there are the same connotations in the original.

There is an Unda Maris stop at Waltershausen but I can't work out whether it was added after Bach died.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 24, 2018, 10:26:26 PM
Quote from: André on September 24, 2018, 11:46:31 AM
Any comments on that one? Klais instruments have an excellent reputation.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71LhzdleokL._SX522_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91aeI0hg8oL._SX522_.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Allemagne07_08_0793_Himmerod.JPG)

Klais makes organs of various types and styles/periods, but yes, it's a famous building company.

Apart from that: at least the cover of this twofer is kinda titillating. :)
'Ordered' at the library.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2018, 02:05:40 AM
Claudio Astronio's essay on The Leipzig Chorales

QuoteThe Manuscripts

During his last years, Bach seems to have felt com-pelled to set his organ works in order - both recent and earlier - in complete cycles. 1739 saw the publi-cation of the chorales of part III of the Klavieruebung, in 1746 Bach transcribed six from the Schuebler collection and in 1747-49 he took a series of chorales written thirty years before in Weimar, (probably after the incomplete Orgelbuechlein cycle), and put them in a composite manuscript containing the following works: six trios, seventeen chorales, the canon variations on "Von Himmel hoch da komm ich her" and the unfinished chorale "Wenn wir in hoechsten Noeten sein / Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit". These versions of the Weimar chorales are more elaborate than their prede-cessors - in ornamentation, size and, in some cases, considerably expanded. The only Weimar chorale Bach did not modify was the chorale of the thanks-giving hymn "Nun danket alle Gott".

Several chorales have ornamentation in the soprano part, ("Komm heiliger Geist" BWV 652, "Schmuecke dich o liebe Seele"BWV 654, "Nun danket alle Gott" BWV 657, "Nun komm der heiden Heiland" BWV 659 e 660, "Allein Gott in der Hoch sei Ehr" BWV 662), two in the tenor, ("An Wasserfluessen Babylon" BWV 653, "Allein Gott in der Hoeh sei Ehr" BWV 663) and the others employ the Fantasia technique, (the opening "Komm heiliger Geist, Herre Gott" BWV 651, "Nun komm der Heiden Heiland "BWV 661, the two "Jesus Christus, unser Heiland" BWV 665 - 666 and the fmal "Komm, Gott, Schoepfer, Heiliger Geist" BWV 667) the Trio concertato, ("Herr Jesu Christ, dich zu uns wend" BWV 655) and ornamentation in the two
bass parts, ("Nun komm der Heiden Heiland" BWV 660 and "Allein Gott in der Hoeh sei Ehr" BWV 664). There is just one manualiter chorale, "Jesus Christus unser Heiland" BWV 666 and "0 Lamm Gottes, unschuldig" BWV 656 - the longest work in the collection - has three verses: the first two are manualiter, with the first being repeated due to the demands of the text, and the last is pedaliter with a powerfully tense chromatic passage. All the verses are in ternary rhythm (3/2, 3/2 e 9/4).

A Number of Considerations

Bach intended to combine the works in this manu-script into a new cycle, just as he had done for part III of the Klavieruebung, the Schuebler collection and the unfinished Orgelbuchlein and may have wanted to publish an edition. Inexplicably, however, this attempt at a collection seems to lack that unify-ing factor apparent in Bach's previous ones. The Orgelbuechlein was clearly supposed to be for church services throughout the year, part III of the Klavieruebung for the two masses and two cate-chisms and the Schubler collection demonstrated the composer's new ideas on the nature of church music. Yet the Leipzig manuscript has nothing markedly organic about it - the only detail being that the series of seventeen chorales opens and closes in the name of the holy spirit, (the two "Komm heiliger Geist"BWV 651 e 652 and "Komm, Gott, Schoepfer, heiliger Geist" BWV 667). The eye disease from which Bach began to suffer and which would kill him meant that his son-in-law Johann Christian Altnickol copied out the last two chorales and an anonymous copyist produced the first three lines of the unfinished "Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit"BWV 668. Which means that the Leipzig chorales number sev-enteen plus one with not a few considerations regard-ing the so-called eighteenth. "Wenn wir in hoechsten Noeten sein" is supposed to have been Bach's last work, dictated by the blind composer to a friend and put into the manuscript after his death by an anony-mous copyist with the title "Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit", a change justified by the two different texts being for use with the same chorale melody. But the composition is curiously unfinished and the complete version was inserted by Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach into the posthumous edition of the Art Of The Fugue with the title "Wenn wir in hoechsten Noeten sein"BWV 668a." This naturally became known as the Stterbechoral, i.e. the chorale which is preparato-ry for death, and the mythology which arose con-cerning it was probably intended to do so. The work already existed in the Orgelbuechlein and, like many others, had already been subject to innovation. The fact that the same melody was used with two differ-ent texts - the one in question consolatory and the other a Morgenlied or morning prayer, led some friend or acquaintance to make a choice they felt appropriate to the situation and so giving rise to the legend of the chorale dictated by the composer on his death bed.

The Music, The Organ, The Choir, Bach and The Present Recording

The emotional impact I constantly experienced dur-ing the evening recording sessions of the chorales left me feeling rather puzzled and undecided when it came to editing the present recording. The power of
each piece and perpetually twirling geometry of the musical and rhetorical phrases coming together and moving apart led me to record several versions of the same chorale almost without realizing it. Playing one of these compositions a hundred times over would never lead to a definitive, "correct" performance. I had to accept that every time I played one, Bach's ideas would constantly be generating others like an infinite kaleidoscope and the only way to get to grips with them all would be to keep playing. I thus chose the versions I felt best suited to this notion of the infi-nite yet which also best conveyed the human quality of this music. I allowed myself to improvise some divisions in the ritornelli, such as the extraordinary sarabande of "Schmuecke dich.." and its fantastic image of the sould intent on adorning itself to be pre-sentable to God, or in the infinite peace of the adagio pf "Allein Gott...", a Gloria in excelsis in which all three versions have a light, angel-like pathos rather than anything boomingly celebratory. I chose the takes for musical reasons of course, yet also for the connection I felt was made with the text - the prima-ry source of inspiration for the music itelf. I often kept tempi slow and recording soft, which I felt suit-ed the density of the music and the need to experi-ence fully the phantasmagorial ornamentation of the songline and the tension of the counterpoint. I chose the organ not only for the quality of its sound but also for its character - immediate and up-front yet pro-foundly gentle. We tend to hear external noises, such as moving air and mechanical parts, as something that goes against our standard notions of ascetically clean recorded sound, but I found they actually helped me keep an expressive hold on that subtle yet strong vein of down-to-earth humanity which I heard in this music and it is this very idea which led me to alternate the voices with the organ. Urban Stillhardt and I decided the choir should sing the text of "Vor deinen Thron...- in the eighteenth chorale while we called the organ version "Wenn wir in hoechsten No eten sein". Earlier considerations on these matters aside, whatever one's musicological beliefs, the peacefully luminous simplicity of this chorale is per-fectly suited to both texts - certainty and consolation in the face of difficulty in "Wenn wir.." and serene confiding in God in "Vor deinen Thron..." - does indeed appear to have been intended as an evocative, perfect conclusion to a marvellous cycle.

Claudio Astronio translated by Nicholas Boini
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 25, 2018, 02:43:51 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 25, 2018, 02:05:40 AM
Claudio Astronio's essay on The Leipzig Chorales


Which organ does he use? A modern Italian organ?

Is the recording worth a listen for one who owns at least 50 complete sets already?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 25, 2018, 02:57:01 AM
Quote from: André on September 24, 2018, 11:46:31 AM
Any comments on that one? Klais instruments have an excellent reputation.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91aeI0hg8oL._SX522_.jpg)

A pity that one has got to accept a whole Glass CD too.

I have listened to some clips. The organ is a typical post-war equally tuned German all round organ, which adds a degree of colorlessness to Bach's music. The interpretation is informed but other than that rather run-of-the-mill. I choose to pass it by.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 25, 2018, 03:09:23 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 25, 2018, 02:43:51 AM

Which organ does he use? A modern Italian organ?

Is the recording worth a listen for one who owns at least 50 complete sets already?

Another one I 'ordered' at the NL lib. On the lib site no more info was given.
Did a quick search, but it's difficult to find information on the world wide web... one site mentioned a Verschueren organ (Dutch).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 25, 2018, 03:45:47 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 25, 2018, 03:09:23 AM
Another one I 'ordered' at the NL lib. On the lib site no more info was given.
Did a quick search, but it's difficult to find information on the world wide web... one site mentioned a Verschueren organ (Dutch).


According to JPC's site:

Orgel Radiokapelle St. Benedikt Convento Muri-Gries di Bolzano

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Chor%E4le-BWV-651-668-Leipziger-Chor%E4le/hnum/7734691

And according to WIKI:

Die heutige Orgel stammt von der Orgelbaufirma Manfred Mathis & Co. aus dem Jahr 1971.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abtei_Muri-Gries
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2018, 04:21:56 AM
And according to the booklet Astronio played the organ chorales on an organ made by Verschueren Orgelbouw in 2002, in a place called St Paolo in the South Tyrol. The "Radiokapelle St. Benedikt Convento Muri-Gries di Bolzano" was where they recorded the singing, but the booklet doesn't mention the organ there.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: André on September 25, 2018, 04:54:31 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 25, 2018, 02:57:01 AM
A pity that one has got to accept a whole Glass CD too.

I have listened to some clips. The organ is a typical post-war equally tuned German all round organ, which adds a degree of colorlessness to Bach's music. The interpretation is informed but other than that rather run-of-the-mill. I choose to pass it by.

Thanks for the comment. Actually I might order it, as it is part of a special 3disc offer at JPC and the item I'm really interested in (the Braunfels disc) is available singly at a much higher price. IOW the Bach/Glass would be a « bonus », so to speak  :)

(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4260034861213.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 25, 2018, 05:06:01 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 25, 2018, 04:21:56 AM
And according to the booklet Astronio played the organ chorales on an organ made by Verschueren Orgelbouw in 2002, in a place called St Paolo in the South Tyrol. The "Radiokapelle St. Benedikt Convento Muri-Gries di Bolzano" was where they recorded the singing, but the booklet doesn't mention the organ there.


Thanks, we must believe the booklet. But except stating, that there is Verschueren organ there:

https://orgeln.musikland-tirol.at/ob/Verschueren.html

I can't find other information of this organ. It is not mentioned on Verschueren's home page.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 25, 2018, 05:08:33 AM
Quote from: André on September 25, 2018, 04:54:31 AM
IOW the Bach/Glass would be a « bonus », so to speak  :)


Well, that puts the question in another light, I think.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 25, 2018, 05:18:57 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 25, 2018, 05:06:01 AM

Thanks, we must believe the booklet. But except stating, that there is Verschueren organ there:

https://orgeln.musikland-tirol.at/ob/Verschueren.html

I can't find other information of this organ. It is not mentioned on Verschueren's home page.

I think it is mentioned on their site, probably opus 1084.

http://www.verschuerenorgelbouw.nl/nl/orgels/98-opuslijst.html

If that's the one, I think it's the Verschueren-Schwalbennestorgel (2002) an der Südwand Langhaus der Pfarrkirche St. Paolo, Eppan, South Tirol, Italy.

http://www.pauls-sakral.eu/de/orgellandschaft/pfarrkirche-st-paulseppan/index.html
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: André on September 25, 2018, 05:40:21 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 25, 2018, 05:08:33 AM

Well, that puts the question in another light, I think.

In a way, yes. But if it had been bad I would have given it a pass, concentrating instead on acquiring the Braunfels later. The french works disc is of no interest to me (who wants to hear the 2 L'Arlésienne suites on organ  ???  ?). So it all came down to that Bach/Glass twofer. I must admit I like Glass and wouldn't mind exploring that facet of his oeuvre.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 25, 2018, 09:59:25 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 25, 2018, 05:18:57 AM
I think it is mentioned on their site, probably opus 1084.

http://www.verschuerenorgelbouw.nl/nl/orgels/98-opuslijst.html

If that's the one, I think it's the Verschueren-Schwalbennestorgel (2002) an der Südwand Langhaus der Pfarrkirche St. Paolo, Eppan, South Tirol, Italy.

http://www.pauls-sakral.eu/de/orgellandschaft/pfarrkirche-st-paulseppan/index.html


Thanks, you are certainly right.

How did you find the Pauls-sacral site?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 25, 2018, 12:13:42 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 25, 2018, 09:59:25 AM

Thanks, you are certainly right.

How did you find the Pauls-sacral site?

After finding the instrument on the Verschueren site, i searched at Google on Verschueren Epan Orgel. It was the 4th or 5th link.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2018, 01:28:03 PM
(https://cdn3.volusion.com/3pvgr.scms9/v/vspfiles/photos/G-49278-2-3.jpg?1503692466)

Here's a good modern organ for Bach, the Caspirini inspired organ at Rochester USA (it's rather more attractive than the one Asrronio uses for the Leipzig Chorales.) I've been listening to it over the past couple of days and the performances are just about listenable.

Re Astronio's Leipzig Chorales I've listened to the first CD, it's a bit brash, and a bit tough, not very spiritual. The organ hasn't got much gravitas, or indeed bass. The registrations he uses don't seem specially imaginative or expressive.

Astronio can talk the talk but I am not so sure he can walk the walk. When I read

QuoteI allowed myself to improvise some divisions in the ritornelli, such as the extraordinary sarabande of "Schmuecke dich.." and its fantastic image of the sould intent on adorning itself to be pre-sentable to God

I was expecting something a bit more exciting and imaginative than what I got. I'll listen to the second CD before the end of the week.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 06, 2018, 08:07:10 AM
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5591268fe4b0d09526cc04a2/t/5b1ce6978a922ddcbe269baf/1528620781694/Essai+n%C2%B08+BIS+-+JSB+-+FINAL.jpg?format=500w)

Does anyone know anything about the organ Thierry Mechler is using here? It sounds clean and new, transparent. Well recorded. First impressions are that the performances are what Don used to call "celebratory" --  very pleasant and easy to listen to.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 08, 2018, 09:27:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 06, 2018, 08:07:10 AM
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5591268fe4b0d09526cc04a2/t/5b1ce6978a922ddcbe269baf/1528620781694/Essai+n%C2%B08+BIS+-+JSB+-+FINAL.jpg?format=500w)

Does anyone know anything about the organ Thierry Mechler is using here? It sounds clean and new, transparent. Well recorded. First impressions are that the performances are what Don used to call "celebratory" --  very pleasant and easy to listen to.

Wow. It took me some time to find out.
Apparently, it's the Didier organ (1923) of the Basilique de Thierenbach, France (Alsace). Restored in 2010-2012 (?) by Manufacture d'Orgues MUHLEISEN in Strasbourg. It looks as if a Rückwerk was added.

Here are some pics with added information:

(https://images2.imgbox.com/33/4d/EsJwYXAx_o.jpg)

(https://images2.imgbox.com/17/ed/zIeCxThG_o.jpg)

(https://images2.imgbox.com/cb/fc/2aTHZcW5_o.jpg)

(https://images2.imgbox.com/1f/45/X5QMNIng_o.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 08, 2018, 09:52:50 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 08, 2018, 09:27:14 AM
Wow. It took me some time to find out.
Apparently, it's the Didier organ (1923) of the Basilique de Thierenbach, France (Alsace). Restored in 2010-2012 (?) by Manufacture d'Orgues MUHLEISEN in Strasbourg. It looks as if a Rückwerk was added.

Excellent work.Hats off.

How did you find out? The organ isn't mentioned on any of the sites, where the CÜ III can be downloaded.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 08, 2018, 10:34:41 AM
Thanks Marc. I should have guessed, I can see on his website that he is "Organiste titulaire de la Philharmonie de Cologne et de la Basilique de Thierenbach."

It's a fun recording, it's not deep and the organ doesn't have the magic patina of an old one, but he plays with such joy and healthiness and simplicity, frankness,  that it's kind of irresistible! 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 08, 2018, 10:39:15 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 08, 2018, 09:52:50 AM
Excellent work.Hats off.

How did you find out? The organ isn't mentioned on any of the sites, where the CÜ III can be downloaded.

Yeah, I discovered that, too. And it's also not mentioned not on Mechler's own website, another example of a sloppy and not-so-informative website of a musician by the way.
However, I found this text on Mechler's Facebook site, even though it was difficult to scroll down and searching information, being not a Facebook member.

Six ans après mon dernier album, j'ai le plaisir de vous annoncer la sortie de mon nouvel album « Clavier-Übung III » le vendredi 22 juin 2018 sur toutes les plateformes digitales (iTunes, Apple Music, Spotify, Deezer, ... ) avec mon label Tonalis Records ! Il s'agit d'un enregistrement de la Messe luthérienne de Jean Sébastien Bach aux orgues de la Basilique Notre-Dame de Thierenbach.

After that, I managed to find a few sites with information about the instrument.

For those interested, here's the final fugue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aecOT2vyesY
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 08, 2018, 11:03:35 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DspobrZXcAEXkTI.jpg)
#morninglistening & #Thanksgiving to magnificent #Bach. #Clavierbüchlein 1-4 on @OehmsClassics

: http://a-fwd.to/2HEWtSJ

w/@BachChor; performed and transcribed (where necessary) by #HansJörgAlbrecht (http://a-fwd.to/2HEWtSJ)

I find transcriptions TO the organ, such as those of the GVs and the Partitas, rather more difficult to pull off than going in the reverse... from organ (aerophone) to, say, harpsichord or piano (percussive).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 08, 2018, 11:56:36 PM
In fact Thierry Mechler plays the Goldberg Variations on an organ, and he's proud enough of it to have released it as a recording! I haven't heard it.

(https://static.fnac-static.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/5/1/0/3760006130015/tsp20130828141432/Variations-Goldberg-BWV988-transcrites-pour-orgue.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 07, 2019, 02:19:50 AM
A nice interview with Piet Wiersma here, which I've run through Google translate

QuoteInfected with the organ virus
By G. de Looze
After Bram Beekman, Ewald Kooiman, Ton Koopman and Jacques van Oortmerssen, Piet Wiersma also jumps on Bach. De Groninger hopes in 2002 to have completed the recordings of all his organ works. It is striking that all compositions are played on Groningen instruments. The organist guarantees a quiet Bach: "His music must sound decent."

Piet Wiersma
Pediatrician Henk Wieringa, a student of Piet Wiersma (53), threw the bat into the henhouse two years ago. "He launched the idea to record all Bach works on historic Groningen organs. I thought about that for years, long before Beekman and Koopman started their recordings. "

It was no punishment for Wiersma to limit himself to the Groningen organs. "I fell in love with it, grew up with it. My first organ teacher, Johan van Meurs, advised me to go into the province by bike on free afternoons. At the age of thirteen, I visited Loppersum and crawled behind the organ. Suddenly, in my opinion much too soon, the door opened: the sexton asked me if I should not go home. It was half past three at night. I almost could not get away, something that I still have trouble with when I am sitting behind an organ. I have been infected with the organ virus. "

The Aders-born Wiersma studied main subject organ with Wim van Beek at the Municipal Conservatory of Groningen. In 1971 he obtained the final diploma solo play, with distinction, and in 1975 the Prix d 'Excellence. Wiersma has been the organist of the Grote of St.-Nicolaaskerk in Monnickendam since 1983. He teaches his students, among other things, in his hometown Haren, in Bolsward, Haarlem and in Harderwijk. Every year he gives about one hundred (choir) concerts.

Wiersma knows the Groningen organs as his pocket. "Bach fits perfectly on these instruments. The first part of the Pastoral sounds enchanting with the Vox Humana in Bellingwolde. The Woudfluit 2 'van Uithuizen is one of the most beautiful I know. I use it in the fifth triosonate. "

Koopman, Kooiman and Beekman mainly chose large organs in cathedral churches. Piet Wiersma selected 21 more modest instruments besides the large organ in the Groningen Martini, most of which were built during Bach's life. It gives its Bach series its own, multicolored face. Coral previews performed with the Prestant 4 'in Midwolde (7 voices) or the Prestant 8' in Kantens (10 voices) sound surprising and intimate. "Most of the churches where Bach was organist are no bigger than those in Noordwolde. A larger instrument (19 votes) is therefore not necessary for the coral operations. "

Piet Wiersma has not thoroughly studied the interpretations of Beekman, Koopman, Kooiman and Van Oortmerssen. "I try to remain myself, not to imitate anyone and not to be trend-sensitive." The Groninger plays Bach with audible ease. His playing lacks the fireworks and contrast that characterizes Ton Koopman's interpretation. Wiersma's Bach sounds calm, stately. Every note has been thought about, every note is put down with care. This offers the listener the opportunity to experience the harmonious richness of this music. The programming, an alternation of major works and chorale prerecording, prevents listening fatigue.

De Groninger is convinced that speed is taboo. "I am happy that I only now have the opportunity to record Bach. My interpretation has crystallized. Thirty years ago I played faster: "If you are good, you play fast", was my conviction then. My game is quieter now. I do not believe that his music requires a fast pace and take the time to tell my story. Every note has an intention, that's why I want to hear every note. People lived more quietly in Bach's time. They lived in one place for a long time. No planes flew over their heads, no cars rushing past them. That has certainly translated into music: they have never played wildly. Of course, Bach's adaptations of Vivaldi's concerts can sound playful,

The Groningen organist hardly adds decorations. "I stick to the text, because if Bach had wanted vibrators, he would have noted it. Perhaps this choice also has to do with my sober, Groningen-like nature. Nevertheless Bach is a party for me, even though that party is a bit more subdued than with someone like Ton Koopman. "

Piet Wiersma also made a development in the choice of registrations. "I used to prefer a neo-baroque, stingy, thin sound. Now I think more vocal and instrumental. I can tell a story about the registration of each work. I'm not just doing something. On every organ, for example, I try to play a composition with the Vox Humana. The Vox Humana's in the north are so beautiful singing! "

Wiersma exchanged a lot of thoughts with friends. "For years I went to the coffee every Monday morning with Dr. Jan Luth. Together we then focused on Bach's works. The Pedal Exercitium I let cellist Marius van Delden play. He was very enthusiastic about it and confirmed my suspicion that it is a work for cello. That is why I no longer play it in Leens with the full work, but with the Prestanten 8 'and 4'. "

The Groningen organist has not yet looked forward to Bach. He hopes to play all organ works next month during a trip to German cities in seven days. "Bach is for me the organ composer. I put works of Mendelssohn and Franck in the closet for a while after playing, because I saw it again. Bach's music is always equally beautiful, a powerful experience to play it. Bach is never boring. You can not separate from his compositions. "


https://www.rd.nl/oud/bach/bach14.html

In the translation he sounds like quite a fun person, I don't know whether the same effect is there in the dutch -- what am I to make of " "I stick to the text, because if Bach had wanted vibrators, he would have noted it. Perhaps this choice also has to do with my sober, Groningen-like nature?"

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 07, 2019, 03:59:40 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 07, 2019, 02:19:50 AM
A nice interview with Piet Wiersma here, which I've run through Google translate

https://www.rd.nl/oud/bach/bach14.html

In the translation he sounds like quite a fun person, I don't know whether the same effect is there in the dutch -- what am I to make of " "I stick to the text, because if Bach had wanted vibrators, he would have noted it. Perhaps this choice also has to do with my sober, Groningen-like nature?"

Thanks, Mandryka, nice interview displaying Wiersma being the warm and human person I thought he was.

Vibrators means trills
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 07, 2019, 04:47:29 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 07, 2019, 03:59:40 AM
nice interview displaying Wiersma being the warm and human person I thought he was.



Agreed, he comes across like a certain type which I appreciate in real life.

Quote from: (: premont :) on March 07, 2019, 03:59:40 AM

Vibrators means trills

This is the most disappointing thing I've heard all day.

The interview inspired me to listening to Wiersma playing a Vivaldi/Bach piece -- BWV 593, I think it's outstanding and I'm going to listen to him playing the rest of these pieces. Where does he use the Woudfluit in the 5th trio sonata? I'm not sure which sound he's talking about.

Oh and he even managed to make the Pedal Exercitium sound interesting!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 07, 2019, 07:05:39 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 07, 2019, 04:47:29 AM
Where does he use the Woudfluit in the 5th trio sonata? I'm not sure which sound he's talking about.

It is a 2' stop in the RP, which he uses for the right hand part in the first and the third movement combined with Holpyp 8' (a flute stop) and Praestant 4' (a principal stop).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 07, 2019, 08:36:37 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 07, 2019, 02:19:50 AM
A nice interview with Piet Wiersma here, which I've run through Google translate

https://www.rd.nl/oud/bach/bach14.html

In the translation he sounds like quite a fun person, I don't know whether the same effect is there in the dutch -- what am I to make of " "I stick to the text, because if Bach had wanted vibrators, he would have noted it. Perhaps this choice also has to do with my sober, Groningen-like nature?"

Good job!

Wiersma mentions Jan Luth, who was working at the Rijksuniversiteit Groningen (university). Luth was also a good friend of Ewald Kooiman. He didn't play that much and I don't know of any record by him, but I attended Luth's In Memoriam Ewald Kooiman concert in Leens (Hinsz organ) in 2009 and it was great.
I once sent him an open application, to no avail alas.

Wiersma's unfinished Bach in Groningen cycle is still a gem. Wiersma playing those beautiful instruments is a very satisfactory listening experience.
But the set is completely OOP and I already heard around 2011/2012 from the Stichting Groningen Orgelland that any chance of a reissue is (less than) zero.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 07, 2019, 09:47:04 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 07, 2019, 08:36:37 AM
But the set is completely OOP and I already heard around 2011/2012 from the Stichting Groningen Orgelland that any chance of a reissue is (less than) zero.

I am very grateful, that a good friend gave me the set, before it disappeared for good.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 10, 2019, 01:04:04 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 07, 2019, 09:47:04 AM
I am very grateful, that a good friend gave me the set, before it disappeared for good.  :)

And vice versa. :)
IIRC, Koopman/Beekman/Wiersma... thanks to a good friend, ten years later it still feels as if I started my quest through Bach's organ works with the Golden Standard.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on June 11, 2019, 10:12:16 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 08, 2019, 03:06:16 AM
Talking of articulated, have you heard Chorzempa's Leipzig Chorales? They're on Spotify etc, and I've enjoyed exploring his challenging vision.

I just checked out the Chorzempa - listened to my favorites, BWV 651 (Fantasia super Komm heiliger Geist), An Wasserflussen Babylon, O Lamm Gottes, and Vor deinen Tron. It is wonderful!

He takes his time and doesn't really try to build tension or push the music along. You are simply in heaven, no rush, even for the whole 10 minutes of O lamm Gottes. Although his articulation is consistently quite detached, there is still a wonderful sense on singing, and the overall effect is gently moving.

Doesn't hurt that it is played on the charming organ of Lebuinuskerk Deventer, mostly built in the 19th century (but in sort of an evolved Dutch Baroque style) but with pipework dating back to the time when Sweelinck was baptized at the very church in the 16th century.

I wonder what you find "challenging" about it? Usually something too austere or too eccentric would be "challenging" (in a good way), but I don't this was for me.

(Cross-posted from the general organ thread)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on June 11, 2019, 10:15:42 PM
BTW, I found out that tomorrow the Belgian organ radio Organroxx will be broadcasting among other things, the full first volume of Piet Wiersma's Bach in Groningen, with Clavier Ubung III played on the Groningen Martinikerk organ. Since Wiersma's Bach in Groningen is one of the great out-of-print-and-never-to-be-reissued "unicorn" Bach recordings, it would be a great chance for those who don't already have the recordings to hear it.

https://www.organroxx.com/en_US/playlist/1252
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 12, 2019, 12:47:22 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on June 11, 2019, 10:12:16 PM
I just checked out the Chorzempa - listened to my favorites, BWV 651 (Fantasia super Komm heiliger Geist), An Wasserflussen Babylon, O Lamm Gottes, and Vor deinen Tron. It is wonderful!

He takes his time and doesn't really try to build tension or push the music along. You are simply in heaven, no rush, even for the whole 10 minutes of O lamm Gottes. Although his articulation is consistently quite detached, there is still a wonderful sense on singing, and the overall effect is gently moving.

Doesn't hurt that it is played on the charming organ of Lebuinuskerk Deventer, mostly built in the 19th century (but in sort of an evolved Dutch Baroque style) but with pipework dating back to the time when Sweelinck was baptized at the very church in the 16th century.

I wonder what you find "challenging" about it? Usually something too austere or too eccentric would be "challenging" (in a good way), but I don't this was for me.

(Cross-posted from the general organ thread)

I'm glad you like it, I love it too. It's the rubato, or rather the absence of rubato, which I found a shock to the ears at first, and the small scale conception, it's human being sized. "Gentle" is the right word I think, His WTC is a bit like that, and I like that very much too.

It's hard for me to say why Chorzempa's Bach is often so adorable.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on June 16, 2019, 11:03:35 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 12, 2019, 12:47:22 PM
I'm glad you like it, I love it too. It's the rubato, or rather the absence of rubato, which I found a shock to the ears at first, and the small scale conception, it's human being sized. "Gentle" is the right word I think, His WTC is a bit like that, and I like that very much too.

It's hard for me to say why Chorzempa's Bach is often so adorable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqx5OQIkiu8

Well thanks to you the WTC is a great discovery. Eccentric choices of instruments, but all played very lyrically and of course, gently.

Maybe the organ playing here is the weakest link - at least, compared to the wonderful clavichords.

What are the instruments being used here? Seems like he is playing on a lot of different instruments, even a few different clavichords.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 16, 2019, 11:50:01 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on June 16, 2019, 11:03:35 PM


What are the instruments being used here? Seems like he is playing on a lot of different instruments, even a few different clavichords.

I don't know. The man who released them for Philips (Tom Deacon),once said to me that he thought that the instruments were his own. Bk 1 was released on LP first, and then Tom got him to reassemble the instruments, he recorded Book 2 and Tom put the whole thing in a box of CDs. Hats off to Tom for recognising the interest in the performances -- musical rather than commercial interest I suspect, I wonder if this WTC has ever broke even.

Is he still alive? If he is I'm sure he'd appreciate an email from you, and be more than happy to tell you about the instruments.

Premont has the set, so maybe the details are there.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 17, 2019, 05:23:48 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 16, 2019, 11:50:01 PM

Premont has the set, so maybe the details are there.

Yes, I think so. I shall look for the information.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on June 17, 2019, 07:16:49 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 16, 2019, 11:50:01 PM
I don't know. The man who released them for Philips (Tom Deacon),once said to me that he thought that the instruments were his own. Bk 1 was released on LP first, and then Tom got him to reassemble the instruments, he recorded Book 2 and Tom put the whole thing in a box of CDs. Hats off to Tom for recognising the interest in the performances -- musical rather than commercial interest I suspect, I wonder if this WTC has ever broke even.

Is he still alive? If he is I'm sure he'd appreciate an email from you, and be more than happy to tell you about the instruments.

Premont has the set, so maybe the details are there.

Apparently he is alive and living in Florence.  Contact details are part of his website
http://www.chorzempa.com/index.html

Although that little biography seems to date from 2003.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 17, 2019, 11:39:31 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 17, 2019, 05:23:48 AM
Yes, I think so. I shall look for the information.

Book I:

Clavichord Hieronymus A Haas, Hamburg 1742

Harpsichord Carl Conrad Fleischer, Hamburg 1716

Cabinet-organ unknown Dutch builder Schnitger school (Matthias Schulze?) 1732?
(no information about disposition or tuning)

Book II:

Harpsichord 1 attributed to Gottfried Silbermann school 1750 or a bit later
BWV 870, 872, 874, 885, 888, 889, 892 & 893

Harpsichord 2 Johann Christoph Fleischer, Hamburg 1710
BWV 871, 880, 886 & 890.

Clavichord Johann Heinrich Silbermann, Strassbourg ca.1775

Organ Matthias Schulze? ca. 1732
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 19, 2019, 10:30:18 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on June 11, 2019, 10:12:16 PM
I just checked out the Chorzempa - listened to my favorites, BWV 651 (Fantasia super Komm heiliger Geist), An Wasserflussen Babylon, O Lamm Gottes, and Vor deinen Tron. It is wonderful!

He takes his time and doesn't really try to build tension or push the music along. You are simply in heaven, no rush, even for the whole 10 minutes of O lamm Gottes. Although his articulation is consistently quite detached, there is still a wonderful sense on singing, and the overall effect is gently moving.

Doesn't hurt that it is played on the charming organ of Lebuinuskerk Deventer, mostly built in the 19th century (but in sort of an evolved Dutch Baroque style) but with pipework dating back to the time when Sweelinck was baptized at the very church in the 16th century.

I wonder what you find "challenging" about it? Usually something too austere or too eccentric would be "challenging" (in a good way), but I don't this was for me.

(Cross-posted from the general organ thread)

To me, Chorzempa offers an attractive combination of 'no nonsense' and refined lyrical playing... a bit like Ewald Kooiman. I like them both very much.
Chorzempa's recordings of f.i. the Trio Sonatas (Meppel, Hervormde Kerk) and the Orgelbüchlein (Leiden, Marekerk) are splendid, too. And his BWV 565 (Breda, Onze Lieve Vrouwekerk, reissued on Pentatone) is still one of my favourite renditions of this piece.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on June 19, 2019, 07:55:37 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on June 17, 2019, 11:39:31 AM
Book I:

Clavichord Hieronymus A Haas, Hamburg 1742

Harpsichord Carl Conrad Fleischer, Hamburg 1716

Cabinet-organ unknown Dutch builder Schnitger school (Matthias Schulze?) 1732?
(no information about disposition or tuning)

Book II:

Harpsichord 1 attributed to Gottfried Silbermann school 1750 or a bit later
BWV 870, 872, 874, 885, 888, 889, 892 & 893

Harpsichord 2 Johann Christoph Fleischer, Hamburg 1710
BWV 871, 880, 886 & 890.

Clavichord Johann Heinrich Silbermann, Strassbourg ca.1775

Organ Matthias Schulze? ca. 1732

Thanks for the information! All wonderful and intriguing instruments.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on July 07, 2019, 09:34:57 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra587_1Sf1Q

A new release of Clavierubung III by Jörg Halubek, on the Trost organ in Walthershausen.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 02, 2019, 09:44:15 AM
Listening to Alain 3, the lady playing on the Schnitger et al organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL.
I think it's really very very good... during the years, I have begun to appreciate this 3rd integral more and more.

Right now, lots of Schnitger festivities are going on the city of Groningen, since it's 300 years ago that the maestro, Arp Schnitger, died.
Lots of organ students from all over the world get lessons from various organists during a so called Summer Academy.
I visited a few concerts, and also a masterclass (on the Schnitger/Timpe of the Der Aa Kerk), given by Japanese organist Rie Hiroe (b. 1965). Last wednesday she performed on the Martini organ and she did a splendid job, especially with the epic Praeludium in B-minor BWV 544. Also her performance of the Fantasia in G-major "Pièce d'Orgue" BWV 572 was impressive, with a beautiful ending filled with suspense.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 02, 2019, 10:08:29 PM
The one I've just acquired is Matthias Eisenberg. Well recorded, I think, and some nice organs (Eg the Osnabrück Flentrop) But so far I've only had a chance to hear the very beginning of orgalbuchlein and the middle of CU3.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on August 02, 2019, 10:34:09 PM
Live recording I attended Friday evening in the:
Catharina Kerk in Roden, The Netherlands.
Johann Sebastian Bach.

Wolfgang Zerer, played on the Hinsz organ.

The Church was full to the brim, the air was sticky, and there were many international organ students. Before I say anything about the performance, you have to know that they removed the plaster from the walls some time ago, to show all the brickwork underneath. Looks pretty, but it ruined the acoustics, and thus the Hinsz organ is badly treated. No reverb, music bouncing steel hard against the walls, with the mixtures cutting through your ears as a knife goes through butter.
Although Zerer has played often on this instrument, he does not realize that you have to cut back on the loudness, and play in a  less dynamic way, or with less agitated energy. that way we are spared some of the nasty sounds.
But he does not, at least not in the first half of the J.S. Back recital. He starts with the Praeludium in G, BWV 568, so fast that none of the notes get a real chance to unfold, and due to the dynamics and loudness, he makes it ramble like a couple of iron chains, painful to the ears, and this is repeated till the last piece before the pause, Valet will ich dir geben, BWV 736, a beautiful piece that falls short of compassion.
After the pause it gets much better, starting with the praeludium in C, BWV 874/1. Well balanced still a tad to fast but more expression. The highlight for me was Partite diverse sopra O Gott, du frommer Gott, the Hinsz was treated according to its possibilities, and had me in raptures, closed off with the Fuge in c, BWV 575.
Now it is not Zerer's fault that they ruined the acoustics, for I think him one of the best organists we have in Europe.  But his playing made abundantly clear, that if you want the sound of the original intonation, and the instrument to bloom, they have to reapply the plaster.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 02, 2019, 10:58:40 PM
That's really interesting Harry, I guess the plaster was already there when the organ was installed in the c18, but the bricks were exposed prior to that. I wouldn't have guessed it would have made such a big difference - both hard reflective surfaces.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 03, 2019, 01:25:19 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 02, 2019, 10:08:29 PM
The one I've just acquired is Matthias Eisenberg. Well recorded, I think, and some nice organs (Eg the Osnabrück Flentrop) But so far I've only had a chance to hear the very beginning of orgalbuchlein and the middle of CU3.

A somewhat idiosyncratic cycle I think. But it suits my temper.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 04, 2019, 05:04:43 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on August 02, 2019, 10:34:09 PM
Live recording I attended Friday evening in the:
Catharina Kerk in Roden, The Netherlands.
Johann Sebastian Bach.

Wolfgang Zerer, played on the Hinsz organ.

The Church was full to the brim, the air was sticky, and there were many international organ students. Before I say anything about the performance, you have to know that they removed the plaster from the walls some time ago, to show all the brickwork underneath. Looks pretty, but it ruined the acoustics, and thus the Hinsz organ is badly treated. No reverb, music bouncing steel hard against the walls, with the mixtures cutting through your ears as a knife goes through butter.
Although Zerer has played often on this instrument, he does not realize that you have to cut back on the loudness, and play in a  less dynamic way, or with less agitated energy. that way we are spared some of the nasty sounds.
But he does not, at least not in the first half of the J.S. Back recital. He starts with the Praeludium in G, BWV 568, so fast that none of the notes get a real chance to unfold, and due to the dynamics and loudness, he makes it ramble like a couple of iron chains, painful to the ears, and this is repeated till the last piece before the pause, Valet will ich dir geben, BWV 736, a beautiful piece that falls short of compassion.
After the pause it gets much better, starting with the praeludium in C, BWV 874/1. Well balanced still a tad to fast but more expression. The highlight for me was Partite diverse sopra O Gott, du frommer Gott, the Hinsz was treated according to its possibilities, and had me in raptures, closed off with the Fuge in c, BWV 575.
Now it is not Zerer's fault that they ruined the acoustics, for I think him one of the best organists we have in Europe.  But his playing made abundantly clear, that if you want the sound of the original intonation, and the instrument to bloom, they have to reapply the plaster.

I only attended a concert in Roden once, it must have been 2 years ago. Given the expected acoustic circumstances (which you described very well) I picked a place rather far away from the organ. I must say, that, despite the lack of reverb, the sound was rather pleasant to the ears, even though I found this particalur Hinsz instrument not as spicy as some others. It might be that Henk de Vries, who played the organ that evening, knew a little bit more about the instrument in its circumstances than Zerer did last Friday.

Monday evening Zerer will be playing on the organ in the Der Aa Kerk. If things work out, I will attend it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 04, 2019, 05:06:57 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 02, 2019, 10:08:29 PM
The one I've just acquired is Matthias Eisenberg. Well recorded, I think, and some nice organs (Eg the Osnabrück Flentrop) But so far I've only had a chance to hear the very beginning of orgalbuchlein and the middle of CU3.

Are the discs available again somewhere?

(Or did you just get lucky? ;))
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on August 04, 2019, 05:36:39 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 04, 2019, 05:04:43 AM
I only attended a concert in Roden once, it must have been 2 years ago. Given the expected acoustic circumstances (which you described very well) I picked a place rather far away from the organ. I must say, that, despite the lack of reverb, the sound was rather pleasant to the ears, even though I found this particular Hinsz instrument not as spicy as some others. It might be that Henk de Vries, who played the organ that evening, knew a little bit more about the instrument in its circumstances than Zerer did last Friday.

Monday evening Zerer will be playing on the organ in the Der Aa Kerk. If things work out, I will attend it.

The church was so full with people, that I could not choose a place as far away from the organ as possible, but still the sound is a dry as a dino bone, and this detail is also destroying the aural bliss.
I will if time permits be in the Aa church too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 04, 2019, 06:40:49 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 04, 2019, 05:06:57 AM
Are the discs available again somewhere?

(Or did you just get lucky? ;))

I'll let you have them later. I don't have them all.

Very characterful playing on characterful modern organs. Fun and virtuoso, I'm not sure it really suits my temperament, but fun,  it made me think I should reappraise Isoir and Vernet sometime, whose Bach has never meant much to me. But Eisenberg has been rather dwarfed in my imagination by Rubsam (Philips) and Chorzempa, both of which have been a source of great pleasure.

Oh I also had a listen to a bit of Alain III after your laudatory comments. I listened to my favourite prelude -- BWV 547. And suddenly, after weeks of a diet of Eisenberg, Rubsam and Chorzempa, I remembered the joys of a big baroque organ well recorded played through good  speakers and amp!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 04, 2019, 06:56:25 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 04, 2019, 06:40:49 AM
I'll let you have them later. I don't have them all

Which are the ones you have?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 04, 2019, 11:58:57 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 04, 2019, 06:56:25 AM
Which are the ones you have?

I have 1,2,3,4b, 5, 6a, 6b, 9. So I guess I'm missing 4a, 7 and any after 9.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on August 04, 2019, 05:18:59 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 02, 2019, 10:08:29 PM
The one I've just acquired is Matthias Eisenberg. Well recorded, I think, and some nice organs (Eg the Osnabrück Flentrop) But so far I've only had a chance to hear the very beginning of orgalbuchlein and the middle of CU3.

I've been having a hard time with Eisenberg. I've listened to a few ones in this set - the recordings on the historical Cappel and Gifhorn organs, and also the CU on the Flentrop and they just sound rushed and dead. What stood out with these performances with you?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 04, 2019, 09:46:44 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on August 04, 2019, 05:18:59 PM
I've been having a hard time with Eisenberg. I've listened to a few ones in this set - the recordings on the historical Cappel and Gifhorn organs, and also the CU on the Flentrop and they just sound rushed and dead. What stood out with these performances with you?


It is secular. Chapuis is also secular, but I think Eisenberg is more interesting because of his greater sense of architecture.

It's lively, fruity coloured, fleet of foot and swift of hand. The absence of gravitas is compensated for by his virtuosity.

As you must know by now, I'm a glass half full person.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on August 04, 2019, 11:18:57 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 04, 2019, 09:46:44 PM

It is secular. Chapuis is also secular, but I think Eisenberg is more interesting because of his greater sense of architecture.

It's lively, fruity coloured, fleet of foot and swift of hand. The absence of gravitas is compensated for by his virtuosity.

As you must know by now, I'm a glass half full person.

I just listened to a buxtehude recording that can be described in the same exact terms :). Posted about it in the general organ thread, wonder how you think of it. I'll give Eisenberg another chance.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 13, 2019, 05:35:48 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Feb13/Bach_organ_LWC1035.jpg)

This is a contentious recording.

Johan Van Veen thought that the performances were very good but that they had nothing new to say

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Jul14/Bach_organ_LWC1035.htm

Hannah Parry Redout says that the interpretations are dynamic and are spoilt by an anachronistic 16' Bombarde which speaks late.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Feb13/Bach_organ_LWC1035.htm

Dr. L Offerhaus, reviewing on amazon, says he knows the organ well and that the sound on the CD doesn't do it justice.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Concertos-Choral-Preludes-Kare-Nordstoga/dp/B0094BDOZE/ref=sr_1_16?keywords=Nordstoga+Kare&qid=1565702997&s=music&sr=1-16

And Mandryka on GMG says he loves the Bombarde, which gives the recording something distinctive. And he agrees with Ms. Parry-Redout that the performances are dynamic. And he doesn't find the sound take a problem at all, unlike the good doctor Offerhaus.

Go figure!

One little addition. I think one of Nordstoga's real strengths is his versatility - each Bach recording sounds different, not the organ, but the way he adapts his general approach. If the Lawo cycle gets finished it will be a very good thing I think.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 15, 2019, 12:18:15 PM
Just back from a Bach-by-Bike trip that meant to hit many of the organs Bach played, knew, or tested. It ended up not being super-methodical, because there was a vacation-aspect and the reality of bicycle-limitation to consider, but still a beautiful experience.
Some of it can be followed on instagram  (https://www.instagram.com/classicalcritic/)(where the pix will be deleted, before long, though), some on Twitter: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bachbybike&src=typed_query (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bachbybike&src=typed_query)


(https://66.media.tumblr.com/662dd494357513975e7e91702087f1cc/tumblr_pw60xr8JMt1tv9038o1_540.jpg)

(This is one of the four Silbermann organs in Freiberg. We don't know if Bach played any of them but it is at least likely that he played the grand instrument in the dome (not this one, at the Petri Kirche). He owned shares in a silver mine nearby and was of course well acquainted with colleague Silbermann, so even without documented evidence, it's fairly likely he visited and played there.)


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Elk on August 16, 2019, 07:03:38 AM
I'm envious of your Bach-by-Bike tour. That must have been fun.

After Manryka's comment that the Prelude of BWV 547 was his favourite, I had a listen to the 7 interpretations I have: Walcha, Rogg on HM, Kibbie, Houbart, Herrick, Kastner on Capriccio, and Hurford. I also listened to 2 Alain recordings on Naxos, which I believe are from the first and second sets. Hurford's was the sprightliest and most infectious of the bunch, on a fairly new Hradretzky organ in the Abbey of Melk, Austria. Kastner came 2nd in my preference. Unfortunately, I don't have access to Alain's 3rd. Otherwise it would have been included.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on August 16, 2019, 11:55:40 AM
Quote from: Elk on August 16, 2019, 07:03:38 AM
I'm envious of your Bach-by-Bike tour. That must have been fun.

After Manryka's comment that the Prelude of BWV 547 was his favourite, I had a listen to the 7 interpretations I have: Walcha, Rogg on HM, Kibbie, Houbart, Herrick, Kastner on Capriccio, and Hurford. I also listened to 2 Alain recordings on Naxos, which I believe are from the first and second sets. Hurford's was the sprightliest and most infectious of the bunch, on a fairly new Hradretzky organ in the Abbey of Melk, Austria. Kastner came 2nd in my preference. Unfortunately, I don't have access to Alain's 3rd. Otherwise it would have been included.

I like my 547 prelude sprightly and infectious too! I think you'll enjoy Koopman on the Den Bosch cathedral organ (On paper - and optically - a Dutch Renaissance organ, but in reality a wonderful-sounding Flemish classical-era organ after the rebuilds of Heyneman and Flentrop :) Nothing to do with "Gothic"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeYbWye_2hk

There's also a wonderful 547 on Bernard Winsemius' Music for Advent and Christmas, played on the Amsterdam Nieuwe kerk organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 16, 2019, 12:30:06 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on August 16, 2019, 11:55:40 AM
[...]
There's also a wonderful 547 on Bernard Winsemius' Music for Advent and Christmas, played on the Amsterdam Nieuwe kerk organ.

You beat me to that one!

I like this performance, too. Very playful:

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-547/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on August 16, 2019, 05:59:15 PM
Quote from: Marc on August 16, 2019, 12:30:06 PM
You beat me to that one!

I like this performance, too. Very playful:

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-547/

Sadly I think that's a recording that is hard to find outside of the Netherlands (I got mine when I was there a few years ago). I could send samples if anyone's interested.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 17, 2019, 03:20:45 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on August 16, 2019, 05:59:15 PM
Sadly I think that's a recording that is hard to find outside of the Netherlands (I got mine when I was there a few years ago). I could send samples if anyone's interested.

Is the link dead outside the Netherlands?

Maybe this one works?

http://allofbach.com/en/bwv/bwv-547/

Or were you referring to the Et'Cetera cd-series 'Bach in Context', with the Gesualdo Consort and Musica Amphion (Belder)?
AFAIK, BWV 547 has not been recorded (yet?) in that particular setting...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 17, 2019, 07:16:24 AM
Quote from: Elk on August 16, 2019, 07:03:38 AM
I'm envious of your Bach-by-Bike tour. That must have been fun.

After Manryka's comment that the Prelude of BWV 547 was his favourite, I had a listen to the 7 interpretations I have: Walcha, Rogg on HM, Kibbie, Houbart, Herrick, Kastner on Capriccio, and Hurford. I also listened to 2 Alain recordings on Naxos, which I believe are from the first and second sets. Hurford's was the sprightliest and most infectious of the bunch, on a fairly new Hradretzky organ in the Abbey of Melk, Austria. Kastner came 2nd in my preference. Unfortunately, I don't have access to Alain's 3rd. Otherwise it would have been included.

Thanks for doing that!

I wonder you and everyone else makes of this? It will come as a real shock, I want to reconstruct the thought processes which led to this articulation and rhythm, and indeed what led the others to the interpretation which has become pretty standard -- in so far as anything can be standard when you're talking organs!

https://www.youtube.com/v/XdzY_DBcssU
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on August 17, 2019, 09:36:26 AM
Quote from: Marc on August 17, 2019, 03:20:45 AM
Is the link dead outside the Netherlands?

Maybe this one works?

http://allofbach.com/en/bwv/bwv-547/

Or were you referring to the Et'Cetera cd-series 'Bach in Context', with the Gesualdo Consort and Musica Amphion (Belder)?
AFAIK, BWV 547 has not been recorded (yet?) in that particular setting...
Winsemius, I meant. Toccata records are hard to find outside NL.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 17, 2019, 10:27:28 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 17, 2019, 07:16:24 AM
Thanks for doing that!

I wonder you and everyone else makes of this? It will come as a real shock, I want to reconstruct the thought processes which led to this articulation and rhythm, and indeed what led the others to the interpretation which has become pretty standard -- in so far as anything can be standard when you're talking organs!

https://www.youtube.com/v/XdzY_DBcssU

Her rhythmic "deviations" and over-articulation have nothing to do with expressivity. She has made herself a fixed idea (Gosh knows from where) about these things and carries it through all the way in an intolerably mannered way. There is nothing spontaneous in her playing. I find listening to her tedious. It might be interesting to know, what Colin Booth or Rübsam thinks of her, even if I think I know, what they will say.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Elk on August 17, 2019, 04:24:15 PM
Gosh Howard, that's positively funereal. I feel as if I'm driving behind someone who is driving so slowly I wish to tell them, "The gas pedal is on the right."

As for Koopman, had I noticed it was a Novalis recording, I might have given it a pass. The one I have is probably the least played Bach organ recording
I have. As it is, I quite liked it, even if it was played by the Jean Guillou of Baroque organ playing (BTW, Guillou made a spectacular transcription of the Goldberg for organ on Dorian if you ever have a chance to hear it).

The van Doeselaar is much more to my taste, and of course it's a treat to watch him playing. However, for now, I'll stick to Hurford and Kastner until I finally spring for a 'complete' set of the Bach organ works. I thought I had settled on Alain II, but maybe III?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 17, 2019, 10:50:23 PM
In the Jacobson, no information is lost, as it were. Because the voices are rhythmically out of phase and the tempo is slow, you can hear, you can feel, everything in the music.

In the prelude, she gives a shape to the whole despite the complex, very complex, textures.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on August 17, 2019, 11:13:42 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 17, 2019, 07:16:24 AM
Thanks for doing that!

I wonder you and everyone else makes of this? It will come as a real shock, I want to reconstruct the thought processes which led to this articulation and rhythm, and indeed what led the others to the interpretation which has become pretty standard -- in so far as anything can be standard when you're talking organs!

https://www.youtube.com/v/XdzY_DBcssU

I actually think this is not (too) bad! At least compared to other things she's done. A bit Gouldian, in how she "deconstructs" the whole thing. Her "rhetorical" style at her best - it is indeed very speech-like. Although it won't really be a recording I'd reach for when I want to hear 547.

BTW, another wonderful Winsemius performance of 547 live here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBmtItZQm9U

On the statelier side, still on the same Amsterdam Nieuwe kerk organ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMN_O932v8Y

Although Elk lists it as his top, I've been having difficulties with Hurford. I think it's more about the rather bland screechy neo-baroque organs he plays on, rather than the playing itself. On the other hand, his recordings on historical organs are wonderful.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 17, 2019, 11:26:52 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/ZSS46Z4/Capture.png)


On the album cover it says

QuoteUNDER BAROKEN VAR RETORIKEN   —DEN KLASSISKA VÄLTALIGHETSLÄRAN—  ÄVEN EN DEL AV MUSIKEN. LENA JACOBSON HAR GÄTT TILL KÄLLORNA OCH FRAMFOR WERK   AV J.S. BACH OCH MEDLEMMAR UR HANS STORA FAMILJ PÄ ETT SATT SOM AR. ANPASSAT TILL DE GAMLA MÄSTARNAS EGNA RETORISKA OCH LIVFULLA TOLKNINGAR

which according to Google Translate means

QuoteDuring the Baroque, the rhetoric was - THE CLASSICAL CHARACTERISTIC LEARNING - ALSO A PART OF MUSIC. LENA JACOBSON LOOKED AT THE SOURCES AND FORWARD WORK BY J.S. BACH AND MEMBERS OF HIS LARGE FAMILY IN A WAY THAT IS. ADAPTED TO OLD MASTER'S OWN Rhetorical AND LIVING INTERPRETATIONS
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 18, 2019, 01:45:48 AM
Quote from: Elk on August 17, 2019, 04:24:15 PM
Gosh Howard, that's positively funereal. I feel as if I'm driving behind someone who is driving so slowly I wish to tell them, "The gas pedal is on the right."



I have absolutely no idea how the conventional tempos in this sort of music have come to be established.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 18, 2019, 03:56:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 18, 2019, 01:45:48 AM
I have absolutely no idea how the conventional tempos in this sort of music have come to be established.

Nor have I. As you know, Bach himself was told to choose rather fast tempi.

Of course every musician should choose the tempo which he/she feels is natural, but if the musician can't get the listeners to feel likewise, it is all rather pointless.

As to Jacobson, I agree that she has a rhetoric aim, but the playing is too mannered. A person speaking in this way would drive the listeners mad.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Elk on August 18, 2019, 04:22:20 AM
Thanks for the link to the Winsemius- a wonderful reading.

I have no idea about HIP performances, nor do I care. I have, however, been very impressed by many. It is not that I don't favour them, like my favourite of the Bach Cello Suites by Anner Bijlsma, but that the performance trumps all (sorry to use a word that is debased these days by the capitalized one).

I can understand the blandness of the Hurford on my computer speakers. In fact, many of the recordings to which I have listened linked by members here sound better on them than on my big system. There, the limitations of the recordings stand out and are far less enjoyable. My stereo system is ruthless, and I am an audiophile. One of the 'problems' of the Hurford is how closely it is recorded. On a small system, like my computer speakers, that is unattractive. On my big system in a largish room, that doesn't matter so much. What remains on both, however, is the absolute clarity of all of the voices in the performance. Furthermore, I bop (Is one supposed to bop to Bach?) to the music. It is infectious. I dance  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 18, 2019, 04:22:54 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on August 17, 2019, 09:36:26 AM
Winsemius, I meant. Toccata records are hard to find outside NL.

One can order the particular disc on this Dutch website:

https://www.boeijengamusic.com/en/j-s-bach-music-for-advent-christmas.html

It's a reliable site, owned by organist Petervan der Zwaag. They have a nice collection of music books and discs. The shop itself is in Leeuwarden, NL.

Van der Zwaag playing BWV 655:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ekU_Np6UvYk

Or try to contact the owner of Toccata:

http://www.toccata-records.nl/contact.html
http://www.toccata-records.nl/top-cd/92-trr99016.html

Maybe they ship outside NL.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 18, 2019, 04:32:57 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on August 17, 2019, 11:13:42 PM
I actually think this is not (too) bad! At least compared to other things she's done. A bit Gouldian, in how she "deconstructs" the whole thing. Her "rhetorical" style at her best - it is indeed very speech-like. Although it won't really be a recording I'd reach for when I want to hear 547.

BTW, another wonderful Winsemius performance of 547 live here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBmtItZQm9U

On the statelier side, still on the same Amsterdam Nieuwe kerk organ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMN_O932v8Y

Although Elk lists it as his top, I've been having difficulties with Hurford. I think it's more about the rather bland screechy neo-baroque organs he plays on, rather than the playing itself. On the other hand, his recordings on historical organs are wonderful.

Yes, I like Hurford, too.
But many of the modern organs he used in his integral leave me rather cold. Others might prefer them though.
AFAIK, Hurford's set has always been a popular one. Solid recommendations almost everywhere.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 18, 2019, 04:50:15 AM
Quote from: Elk on August 18, 2019, 04:22:20 AM
Thanks for the link to the Winsemius- a wonderful reading.

I have no idea about HIP performances, nor do I care. I have, however, been very impressed by many. It is not that I don't favour them, like my favourite of the Bach Cello Suites by Anner Bijlsma, but that the performance trumps all (sorry to use a word that is debased these days by the capitalized one).

I can understand the blandness of the Hurford on my computer speakers. In fact, many of the recordings to which I have listened linked by members here sound better on them than on my big system. There, the limitations of the recordings stand out and are far less enjoyable. My stereo system is ruthless, and I am an audiophile. One of the 'problems' of the Hurford is how closely it is recorded. On a small system, like my computer speakers, that is unattractive. On my big system in a largish room, that doesn't matter so much. What remains on both, however, is the absolute clarity of all of the voices in the performance. Furthermore, I bop (Is one supposed to bop to Bach?) to the music. It is infectious. I dance  :)

I bop on Bach, too.
I bop on many music, but Bach is my top bop.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on August 18, 2019, 04:49:47 PM
Talking about a lot of things at once here :)

Speaking of way too mannered playing/speaking, Jacobsen reminds me of the hilariously pompous French recitation at the start of Baumont's Chambonnieres Pièces de clavessin recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRZqQXupvaQ

Back to the organ:

For tempi there are basic parameters, like the basic note value and how frequent harmonic changes are. And also imitating past performances, to a degree. But when it comes to organ, there's also the limitation of the room. You can't play too fast in an overly reverberant room or else everything will be lost in a blur, but playing too slowly in a dry room can bore the listener (even worse if it is all organo pleno). But it's never a hard rule (see Koopman on the Hamburg St. Jacobi Schnitger). I practice regularly on two organs, one in a moderately reverberant church, the other in a bone-dry auditorium and I have to re-think the piece on hand for each organ.

I think Jacobsen's tempo has a lot of potential, it's probably the "rhetorical" nonsense that is off-putting. But I'm actually warming to the performance after a few listens. Or maybe I'm just going crazy.

With HIP, I think Organ music is in a way more instrument-dependent than other music. You can easily switch between a modern cello and a Baroque cello for Bach's Cello suites, but it is harder to get a chorale fantasy by Tunder to sound interesting on an 1930 Skinner organ. The instrument dictates to a larger degree what can and can't be played on it.

As for Boeijenga, I've ordered from them before! Shipping can be a little expensive to the US though.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Elk on August 18, 2019, 05:49:21 PM

Bioluminescentsquid, thank you for your discussion of playing in different venues, the different approaches to each, and the appropriateness of different organs and spaces for different organ music. That all makes sense to me, a mere listener.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 18, 2019, 11:12:37 PM

In the Jacobson, there's a lot of detail in there, but it doesn't just end up as a rag bag of details, she builds a climax over the duration.

As far as Premont's suggestion that no one speaks like that, it's not one person speaking, it's three! And at the same time - like kids may speak all at the same time and think nothing of it.

And as far as the speech rhythms go, she's swedish isn't she? Brits always think that Swedish sounds like she plays, there's this famous sketch by Benny Hill

https://www.youtube.com/v/CnkPhK7tmhw

I wrote to Lena Jacobson a few years ago asking for offprints of her papers on Buxtehude. She wrote back to say that it was so long ago that she just can't find them!   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 19, 2019, 02:21:22 AM
Quote from: Elk on August 18, 2019, 04:22:20 AM
What remains on both, however, is the absolute clarity of all of the voices in the performance. Furthermore, I bop (Is one supposed to bop to Bach?) to the music. It is infectious. I dance  :)

Found myself very keen on the Hurford set -- more so than I ever expected -- when I finally went through the whole thing after snagging an Italian Decca copy. https://www.classicstoday.com/review/back-in-print-peter-hurfords-seminal-bach-survey-on-argo-decca/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/back-in-print-peter-hurfords-seminal-bach-survey-on-argo-decca/) [insider content]

Another snippet from the Bach-by-bike trip:

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/662dd494357513975e7e91702087f1cc/tumblr_pw60xr8JMt1tv9038o1_540.jpg)

Here Playmobil-JSB is in front of the largest two-manual #SilbermannOrgan in the #Petrikirche in Freiberg - built w/pipes meant for the contemp. Dresden Hofkirche-organ (where they didn't fit, due to a measuring snafu)... which is why the Petri organ ended up being so relatively large.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 09, 2019, 09:59:22 PM
(https://is2-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music/v4/4f/4c/43/4f4c43ba-b66e-17d4-aeb6-7157f7deb7db/iT_HC_D_1228_2400x2400.jpg/600x600bf.png)


Who'd have thought this beast of an organ could be made to dance like a fairy? This is maybe the most balletic set of trio sonatas I've heard. Koito produces performances where the accuracy, the virtuosity, is obvious, but nevertheless is modest, natural, organic.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 11, 2019, 09:44:43 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 09, 2019, 09:59:22 PM
(https://is2-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music/v4/4f/4c/43/4f4c43ba-b66e-17d4-aeb6-7157f7deb7db/iT_HC_D_1228_2400x2400.jpg/600x600bf.png)

Who'd have thought this beast of an organ could be made to dance like a fairy? This is maybe the most balletic set of trio sonatas I've heard. Koito produces performances where the accuracy, the virtuosity, is obvious, but nevertheless is modest, natural, organic.

Well, I've heard organists who made a beast out of this organ... and some who didn't. Always preferred the latter. Good examples: Wim van Beek, Vincent van Laar, Bernard Winsemius, Reitze Smits.
Last summer there was a pupil who managed to make the instrument sound like an ugly bear. Not my taste.

For the rest: IMHO, in general, the northern european/germans great baroque organs are less beasty than some of the more central ones, like Hildebrandt or Silbermann. But that could be personal.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 12, 2019, 05:51:46 AM
Wolfgang Rubsam also recorded all the trio sonatas at the Martinikerk, but his performances are hardly dancing like a fairy. I can see from france orgue that Bram Beekman did one of them there, BWV 529
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 12, 2019, 05:58:14 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 11, 2019, 09:44:43 PM

For the rest: IMHO, in general, the northern european/germans great baroque organs are less beasty than some of the more central ones, like Hildebrandt

If Naumburg is a beast, it's not a bear, it's a deer maybe


(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/red-deer-stag-velvet-male-large-antlers-67187677.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 12, 2019, 08:24:25 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 12, 2019, 05:58:14 AM
If Naumburg is a beast, it's not a bear, it's a deer maybe


(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/red-deer-stag-velvet-male-large-antlers-67187677.jpg)

Not a bad choice at all. :)

Don't get me wrong though. I really love the Naumburg organ. And I have a Cor Ardesch disc where he brings out the best of the great Silbermann in the Freiberg Dom. Just to mention one.
Good organists will make those beasts dance, too.

I've been at concerts in the Martinikerk where I was moving my body to and fro (not that expressively though) and dancing in my mind. Let's face it: much music is based on dances, baroque music is (for a great part) based on dances, and Bach's music is, too. I recall listening to Vincent van Laar's BWV 542 many years (maybe 7 or 8), it was a true ear-opener. As if someone was dancing light-footed upon a harpsichord and made it sound like an organ. Nevertheless, I still like the 'Gravität' approach too.

I.c. Beekman: his BWV 529 is really fine, but I rate him higher in Bach's chorale based works. There's a little stiffness from time to time in his free works. But the registrations are always very well chosen, and in whatever works he plays there's delicacy and also, no matter what 'beast' he is playing ;), audible counterpoint. His Bach is never fuzzy or messy. I love that.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Alek Hidell on September 15, 2019, 01:43:52 PM
Quote from: Marc on August 16, 2019, 12:30:06 PM
I like this performance, too. Very playful:

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-547/

Please forgive a total layman question. I noticed that once he started playing the fugue, his page-turner was no longer standing there beside him. Why is this?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 15, 2019, 03:13:14 PM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on September 15, 2019, 01:43:52 PM
Please forgive a total layman question. I noticed that once he started playing the fugue, his page-turner was no longer standing there beside him. Why is this?

Probably he doesn't need him. Maybe Doeselaar doesn't want the stops changed for the rest of the piece, and maybe he knows the fugue so well, that he doesn't need to look at the score. I have not seen the video though.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Alek Hidell on September 15, 2019, 03:29:13 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 15, 2019, 03:13:14 PM
Probably he doesn't need him. Maybe Doeselaar doesn't want the stops changed for the rest of the piece, and maybe he knows the fugue so well, that he doesn't need to look at the score. I have not seen the video though.

Thanks, premont. I didn't see the page-turner (she's female) change the stops during the prelude either, but I might have missed it (or the camera might have been focusing on something else at that moment - sometimes it shows what the organist's feet are doing). I guessed that maybe Doeselaar knew the fugue well enough to play it without the score, but I wasn't sure.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 16, 2019, 10:26:11 AM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on September 15, 2019, 03:29:13 PM
Thanks, premont. I didn't see the page-turner (she's female) change the stops during the prelude either, but I might have missed it (or the camera might have been focusing on something else at that moment - sometimes it shows what the organist's feet are doing). I guessed that maybe Doeselaar knew the fugue well enough to play it without the score, but I wasn't sure.

I think that this recording was part of a longer concert (the orchestra et al sitting in the church, too). Maybe she helped him with other works he also played at that concert, checked if everything was going well during this piece and then 'slipped' away at a convenient moment.
There's also a possibility that Van Doeselaar played the Praeludium and the Fugue at 2 different moments, with some other works (by the other performers perhaps) in between.
I.c. both of these possibilities, for this particular vid of just one work, they edited a 'total shot' of the church in the seconds between the two parts.

But it's just guessing.

I've seen Van Doeselaar play live, also sitting quite nearby, at the Martini church (Groningen) choir organ (a French instrument by Le Picard, mid 18th century) where he's plain in sight. He then played everything with the score 'on board'. In some occasions there was someone who helped him turning the pages or changing registrations. Sometimes he did that himself. He's fun to watch anyway, and he's a very friendly and enthousiastic man to talk to.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Ras on September 23, 2019, 11:06:17 AM
Bach on historic Dutch organ by Koito on DHM. A new release.
[asin]B07P83ZP63[/asin]
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 23, 2019, 11:11:59 AM
Quote from: Ras on September 23, 2019, 11:06:17 AM
Bach on historic Dutch organ by Koito on DHM. A new release.
[asin]B07P83ZP63[/asin]

The organ looks familiar. :laugh:
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Ras on September 23, 2019, 12:07:22 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 23, 2019, 11:11:59 AM
The organ looks familiar. :laugh:

Amazon says about the organ:
QuoteThe album was recorded in the famous St Martini Kerk in Groningen (Netherlands). The historic organ used was enlarged in 1691-2 by Arp Schnitger (1648-1719), a highly influential North German organ builder."
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 23, 2019, 09:19:09 PM
Quote from: Ras on September 23, 2019, 12:07:22 PM
Amazon says about the organ:

No... I added the 'laugh' smiley cuz I 'visit' the organ about a dozen times a year. Which makes it easy recognizable.
Also: many of the last posts in this thread were about this particular instrument.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 24, 2019, 12:56:20 AM
Quote from: Ras on September 23, 2019, 11:06:17 AM
Bach on historic Dutch organ by Koito on DHM. A new release.
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B07P83ZP63.01.L.jpg)

More astonishingly: DHM is still used to publish new recordings?!?

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: j winter on October 17, 2019, 06:52:26 PM

Greetings.  Cross-posted from WAYLT. 


I've spent a good while over the past week reading through this thread, wonderful stuff.  After spending lots of time with Bach's orchestral, piano and (more recently) harpsichord and choral music, I figured it was past time to devote more attention to the organ.  After rummaging around the net for some bargains, by week's end I'll hopefully have a total of 5 sets on hand.


For the record, for years I've had Walcha stereo and Fagius from the big BC box (which I honestly haven't spent much time with), as well as the 3 disc DG Richter set, and a couple of singles from Powers Biggs and Werner Jacob.  I have just added Alaine II, Koopman, and Hurford (whom I'm talking about below -- Moonfish enquired how I thought Hurford compared to other organists).


I don't imagine that I'll ever get to the point where I'll be able to add much insight for some of the extremely knowledgeable folks on this thread, but I may chime in from time to time with questions and random observations.  Thanks to all for creating such an interesting, in-depth thread, and for prompting me to more fully explore Bach on the organ.   :)



Quote from: j winter on October 17, 2019, 06:20:34 PM
There is indeed, the recent perusal of which actually prompted my purchase.  I'm very much in the exploratory phase here myself.... after having Walcha siting alone on my shelf for years, I've just now taken the plunge and brought in some reinforcements to explore this music in depth -- Hurford's set arrived two days ago, and I've got Alaine II and Koopman coming in the mail.  Based on the older posts in the thread, I got all three sets for less than one of them would have cost back when I bought Walcha, probably almost 15 years ago.

My initial impression is that he's swifter, lighter of touch, and unsurprisingly better recorded than Walcha -- very different in approach.  That said, I really like Walcha as well.... I'm looking forward to spending some time this winter contrasting these four sets, and getting better acquainted with the music...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on October 18, 2019, 06:21:50 AM
Quote from: Ras on September 23, 2019, 11:06:17 AM
Bach on historic Dutch organ by Koito on DHM. A new release.
[asin]B07P83ZP63[/asin]
I've never heard of this person. Her musical biography looks thick. Anyone heard the recording yet?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 18, 2019, 06:52:26 AM
Quote from: milk on October 18, 2019, 06:21:50 AM
I've never heard of this person. Her musical biography looks thick. Anyone heard the recording yet?

No, at least not well enough to say anything more than the sound is excellent. She always chooses good organs and she is always well recorded, I made some comments about her trio sonatas recently, and her Nivers, in both these she makes some bold decisions.  I think she's worth hearing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on October 18, 2019, 08:56:24 AM
Quote from: j winter on October 17, 2019, 06:52:26 PM
Greetings.  Cross-posted from WAYLT. 


I've spent a good while over the past week reading through this thread, wonderful stuff.  After spending lots of time with Bach's orchestral, piano and (more recently) harpsichord and choral music, I figured it was past time to devote more attention to the organ.  After rummaging around the net for some bargains, by week's end I'll hopefully have a total of 5 sets on hand.


For the record, for years I've had Walcha stereo and Fagius from the big BC box (which I honestly haven't spent much time with), as well as the 3 disc DG Richter set, and a couple of singles from Powers Biggs and Werner Jacob.  I have just added Alaine II, Koopman, and Hurford (whom I'm talking about below -- Moonfish enquired how I thought Hurford compared to other organists).


I don't imagine that I'll ever get to the point where I'll be able to add much insight for some of the extremely knowledgeable folks on this thread, but I may chime in from time to time with questions and random observations.  Thanks to all for creating such an interesting, in-depth thread, and for prompting me to more fully explore Bach on the organ.   :)

Sounds like you have the same amount of fun as I had about 10 years ago, when my 'organ search' began, starting with the organ catalogue of J.S. Bach, who already was (and is) my favourite composer for decades.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on October 18, 2019, 09:18:47 AM
Quote from: milk on October 18, 2019, 06:21:50 AM
I've never heard of this person. Her musical biography looks thick. Anyone heard the recording yet?

She's actually quite famous in the Bach/baroque organ world.

Haven't heard this particular recording... I'm a bit in doubt whether I shall ever take a listen. My first 2 encounters with Koito's Bach (CU 3, recorded 1993 and a Bach disc called Volume 1) weren't much to my likings. I remember that I found it tiring to listen to her. But maybe things have gone 'better', or maybe my taste has broadened.
She seems to pick nice historic organs though... the two issues I know are on the Hinsz-organ in Kampen (Bovenkerk) and - there we go again - the Schnitger et al in Groningen (Martinikerk).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 18, 2019, 10:22:30 AM
She doesn't phrase Bach in an incisive way, the music in her hands is lyrical - what Egarr called Cantabile Heaven I think.

But the thing which I find most surprising about her is that she combines this style of melting articulions, where one phrase blends romantically into another, with a light and dancing quality.

It's this combination of dance and song which is her trademark IMO, love it or loathe it, I find it intriguing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: j winter on October 18, 2019, 11:34:38 AM
Quote from: Marc on October 18, 2019, 08:56:24 AM
Sounds like you have the same amount of fun as I had about 10 years ago, when my 'organ search' began, starting with the organ catalogue of J.S. Bach, who already was (and is) my favourite composer for decades.

I hope so :)  I plan on having a great deal of fun spending some quality time with these... the only downside is that I'm probably going to have to switch mostly to headphones, as my wife is not particularly keen on the King of Instruments... 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on October 22, 2019, 07:03:51 AM
I'm looking to explore another larger JS Bach organ box- I enjoy the Walcha and Alain second quite a bit. The other one I have is a reissue set from Isoir on La Dolce Volta (earlier one without Art of Fugue), and maybe an unpopular opinion but I found this a bit all over the place.

Any suggestions? I've been streaming Alain's analog cycle and like what I heard, I'm open to hearing about any in print issues. Thanks.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 22, 2019, 08:28:22 AM
Quote from: staxomega on October 22, 2019, 07:03:51 AM
I'm looking to explore another larger JS Bach organ box- I enjoy the Walcha and Alain second quite a bit. The other one I have is a reissue set from Isoir on La Dolce Volta (earlier one without Art of Fugue), and maybe an unpopular opinion but I found this a bit all over the place.

Any suggestions? I've been streaming Alain's analog cycle and like what I heard, I'm open to hearing about any in print issues. Thanks.

There are two aspects to this, the performance and the organ. My suggestion is that you look at recordings which use lots of different instruments, so that you start to get a feel for the variety. Jens did this discography which may help you decide what to do.

https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html

And this site is good for telling you which organs they're playing

https://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.fra.rch



Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 22, 2019, 01:20:09 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 22, 2019, 08:28:22 AM
There are two aspects to this, the performance and the organ. My suggestion is that you look at recordings which use lots of different instruments, so that you start to get a feel for the variety. Jens did this discography which may help you decide what to do.

https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html

And this site is good for telling you which organs they're playing

https://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.fra.rch

Thanks for the kind mention! I'm glad if it is of use to anyone.

Btw., I'm also working on including all the organs used on the sets: The information, where available, pops up on Mouse-Over.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on October 24, 2019, 07:19:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 22, 2019, 08:28:22 AM
There are two aspects to this, the performance and the organ. My suggestion is that you look at recordings which use lots of different instruments, so that you start to get a feel for the variety. Jens did this discography which may help you decide what to do.

https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html

And this site is good for telling you which organs they're playing

https://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.fra.rch

Will do, thank you. I think I will be picking up one more Alain cycle, I simply enjoy her interpretations so much. Between the analog cycle and her third, does anyone have any opinions on which might complement the second better?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 24, 2019, 07:52:45 AM
Quote from: staxomega on October 24, 2019, 07:19:22 AM
Will do, thank you. I think I will be picking up one more Alain cycle, I simply enjoy her interpretations so much. Between the analog cycle and her third, does anyone have any opinions on which might complement the second better?

Having all three, I would be much quicker to render the 1st to home-invaders than the second or third.  ;)

FYI: https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2019/02/dip-your-ears-no-226-marie-claire.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2019/02/dip-your-ears-no-226-marie-claire.html)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 24, 2019, 08:09:11 AM
Quote from: staxomega on October 24, 2019, 07:19:22 AM
Will do, thank you. I think I will be picking up one more Alain cycle, I simply enjoy her interpretations so much. Between the analog cycle and her third, does anyone have any opinions on which might complement the second better?

The third uses well restored baroque organs and is well recorded. Can you not hear it on Spotify?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on October 24, 2019, 12:53:31 PM
Quote from: staxomega on October 24, 2019, 07:19:22 AM
Will do, thank you. I think I will be picking up one more Alain cycle, I simply enjoy her interpretations so much. Between the analog cycle and her third, does anyone have any opinions on which might complement the second better?

Maybe Jacques van Oortmerssen's partial set? He was an Alain student, and I think they resemble each other in their no-nonsense style. JvO also recorded on wonderful historical organs. But I haven't heard Alain in quite a while so this might be complete nonsense.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 24, 2019, 03:06:25 PM
Quote from: staxomega on October 22, 2019, 07:03:51 AM
I'm looking to explore another larger JS Bach organ box- I enjoy the Walcha and Alain second quite a bit. The other one I have is a reissue set from Isoir on La Dolce Volta (earlier one without Art of Fugue), and maybe an unpopular opinion but I found this a bit all over the place.

Any suggestions? I've been streaming Alain's analog cycle and like what I heard, I'm open to hearing about any in print issues. Thanks.

Gerhard Weinberger and Alessio Corti.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 24, 2019, 03:11:07 PM
Thank you, I will check it out. I knew about this recording, but the novel title of the album didn't attract me very well. The GMG members' opinion of her previous recordings from minor label several years ago was not good, I recall. Did I misunderstand?
Quote from: Mandryka on October 18, 2019, 06:52:26 AM
No, at least not well enough to say anything more than the sound is excellent. She always chooses good organs and she is always well recorded, I made some comments about her trio sonatas recently, and her Nivers, in both these she makes some bold decisions.  I think she's worth hearing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on October 24, 2019, 05:43:27 PM
Quote from: staxomega on October 22, 2019, 07:03:51 AM
I'm looking to explore another larger JS Bach organ box- I enjoy the Walcha and Alain second quite a bit. The other one I have is a reissue set from Isoir on La Dolce Volta (earlier one without Art of Fugue), and maybe an unpopular opinion but I found this a bit all over the place.

Any suggestions? I've been streaming Alain's analog cycle and like what I heard, I'm open to hearing about any in print issues. Thanks.

I am finishing up the Hurford set now. I particularly like his treatment of the chorales.

I strongly like Vernet...don't know the current availability (he is an Alain student). I also liked the Hanssler set, which uses a mix of performers.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on October 24, 2019, 05:45:19 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on October 24, 2019, 03:11:07 PM
Thank you, I will check it out. I knew about this recording, but the novel title of the album didn't attract me very well. The GMG members' opinion of her previous recordings from minor label several years ago was not good, I recall. Am I misunderstood?

I have it on the way to me, will post impressions accordingly.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 25, 2019, 12:10:42 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on October 24, 2019, 03:11:07 PM
Thank you, I will check it out. I knew about this recording, but the novel title of the album didn't attract me very well. The GMG members' opinion of her previous recordings from minor label several years ago was not good, I recall. Did I misunderstand?

Sometimes what she does makes you think. For example, her articulation in AoF makes the music sound unusually fluid. And the Nivers mass is unusually solemn.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on October 25, 2019, 01:35:49 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on October 24, 2019, 03:06:25 PM
Gerhard Weinberger and Alessio Corti.

Corti is a Rogg pupil, and one can hear that.

While Rübsam was an Alain pupil at the time of the recording of her second integral. I always wondered whom of these two learned most from the other one. None-the-less I think Rübsam's first integral of all existing integrals is the one, which resembles Alain II the most.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on October 26, 2019, 05:30:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 24, 2019, 08:09:11 AM
The third uses well restored baroque organs and is well recorded. Can you not hear it on Spotify?

It's not on Spotify or Youtube.

Thanks all for the rest of the suggestions, I'll see about streaming them.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 26, 2019, 06:09:48 AM
Quote from: staxomega on October 26, 2019, 05:30:14 AM
It's not on Spotify or Youtube.

Thanks all for the rest of the suggestions, I'll see about streaming them.

Well what I really think is that it's not a good idea to buy another complete Bach. If you want to stick with Bach, then it would be more  interesting to find the organ music which you're most excited by - sonatas, concertos, some of the big sets of chorales, toccatas or whatever - and explore different interpretations of those by people who haven't necessarily felt inclined to record all of his organ music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 26, 2019, 07:57:40 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 25, 2019, 01:35:49 AM
Corti is a Rogg pupil, and one can hear that.

While Rübsam was an Alain pupil at the time of the recording of her second integral. I always wondered whom of these two learned most from the other one. None-the-less I think Rübsam's first integral of all existing integrals is the one, which resembles Alain II the most.


I will check Rubsam I from Philips. I thought his Naxos recording was idiosyncratic and I didn't like his piano and lute-harpsichord recordings either.

I think that Rubsam I was recorded before Alain II, but yes, still the former could exhibit the influence of Alain, thereby similarity to Alain II which was recorded after his work. Funny, the direction in influence and the order in recording are inverse.  However, you indicate that the influence could have been in both ways.  Is Vernet also her pupil?

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 26, 2019, 08:22:27 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 25, 2019, 12:10:42 AM
Sometimes what she does makes you think. For example, her articulation in AoF makes the music sound unusually fluid. And the Nivers mass is unusually solemn.
Thank you for your insights. They are very helpful.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on October 27, 2019, 06:51:18 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on October 26, 2019, 07:57:40 PM
I will check Rubsam I from Philips. I thought his Naxos recording was idiosyncratic and I didn't like his piano and lute-harpsichord recordings either.

The Rübsam I was rather individual when it was released, but many other organists followed up in a similar style, so to day it sounds not that individual - contrary to his Naxos recordings.

Quote from: Forever Electoral College
I think that Rubsam I was recorded before Alain II, but yes, still the former could exhibit the influence of Alain, thereby similarity to Alain II which was recorded after his work. Funny, the direction in influence and the order in recording are inverse.  However, you indicate that the influence could have been in both ways.  Is Vernet also her pupil?

Yes Rübsam I predates Alain II with a few years. Rübsam I is after all the more "radical" and imaginative of the two. In these ears it sounds most as if Rübsam influenced Alain more than vice-versa. You also have to remember, that Rübsam was no newcomer, when he began to study with Alain. The weak point of Rübsam I is the dull Metzler organ he used for the lions share of the integral, as have been pointed out several times in this forum.

Vernet is also Alain's pupil. He plays with a bit more "southern" temper than Alain.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 27, 2019, 11:46:21 AM
Karol Golebiowski made an integral, or quasi-integral, work.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 22, 2019, 01:20:09 PM
Thanks for the kind mention! I'm glad if it is of use to anyone.

Btw., I'm also working on including all the organs used on the sets: The information, where available, pops up on Mouse-Over.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 28, 2019, 06:20:59 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on October 27, 2019, 11:46:21 AM
Karol Golebiowski made an integral, or quasi-integral, work.

Oh, thanks much for that bit of info! I'll check on it at once.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on November 04, 2019, 06:39:18 PM
Quote from: Ras on September 23, 2019, 11:06:17 AM
Bach on historic Dutch organ by Koito on DHM. A new release.
[asin]B07P83ZP63[/asin]

On a second listen of this...I like it.  Choice of registrations, etc is varied.  She makes full use of the organ's possibilities.
One track (number 11)has strange recording noises.
The title may be a bit misleading...at least, several of the works included don't seem to me to be all that "famous".
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61R6f%2BS96HL.jpg)

ETA
Liked this well enough to order two more of her Bach CDs (the rest seem to be OOP)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 05, 2019, 09:21:21 AM
Quote from: JBS on November 04, 2019, 06:39:18 PM
On a second listen of this...I like it.  Choice of registrations, etc is varied.  She makes full use of the organ's possibilities.
One track (number 11)has strange recording noises.
The title may be a bit misleading...at least, several of the works included don't seem to me to be all that "famous".
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61R6f%2BS96HL.jpg)

ETA
Liked this well enough to order two more of her Bach CDs (the rest seem to be OOP)

I.c. the strange recording noises: those are the mechanical sounds of the organ. It's quite normal, especially with tracker action organs. In fact, I have a very weak spot for them. As if the instrument is a living creature, breathing and sighing. You can also hear these sounds in live concerts.
There are even digital organs who provide those noises as an 'extra' or 'bonus', opposed to the slick sound they usually provide.
Most recurring noises one can hear during organ concerts/recordings:
- wind machine
- tremulant
- pulling and pushing stop knobs
- key noises
- all kind of noises coming from the 'inside' of the organ... check this pic out, for instance (such a machine just won't stay silent ;)):

(https://images2.imgbox.com/4b/9f/tltRVJ2l_o.jpg)

I did hear some non-instrumental sounds though, f.i. at the end of BWV 538: people talking, probably at the other end of the church, but you can hear them in the fading reverb sound.
For the rest: the sound quality of this disc is very good. Koito will never become my fav organist in Bach though, still a bit too much 'shots and knocks' to me, which especially disturbed me in the chorale based works. Nevertheless: it's an interesting recording IMHO. I don't regret the purchase.

I.c. the 'fame' of the famous organ works: maybe it was meant as '(this) famous organ works'. Which, indeed, is true. This organ works!

(I still think it's a pity that the Original thread title 'Bach's organ works' was replaced. ;))
Title: Bach's Organ Works
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 05, 2019, 11:20:51 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 05, 2019, 09:21:21 AM

(I still think it's a pity that the Original thread title 'Bach's organ works' was replaced. ;))

Was it?  ;D*

Hoary tale of one of my German profs in college was having received an essay that started thus:

"Johann Sebastian Bach had 20 Children. He was an old master of the grand organ."


* Ah, yes, it would appear that it was and that changing the title that late into the game doesn't change the whole thread's title. But the working title, going forward, it would.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 13, 2019, 05:02:45 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 18, 2019, 01:45:48 AM
I have absolutely no idea how the conventional tempos in this sort of music have come to be established.
Some of us believe they never have been.Others imagine somewhere there's a Gospel According to Tempi.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 13, 2019, 09:59:55 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on November 13, 2019, 05:02:45 PM
Some of us believe they never have been.Others imagine somewhere there's a Gospel According to Tempi.

Some important questions IMHO, no matter from what period/composer the pieces are:

What are the specifics of the instrument one is playing?
How are the church/hall acoustics?

I suppose though, that, when playing for a 'studio' recording, the microphones can be placed in a way that suits the preferences of the organist, and reverb/acoustics can be adjusted.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 14, 2019, 02:14:13 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 13, 2019, 09:59:55 PM

What are the specifics of the instrument one is playing?
How are the church/hall acoustics?
So true but in an age where countless distortions of an original performance can be imposed due to recording technique and equipment used for replay the idea anyone commenting validly upon a particular tempi as wrong or right for any particular work is an absurdity.
Many organists when familiarising themselves with a particluar instrument and it's acoustics will have an assistant play a piece whilst they listen from a positions occupied by audience or congregation. A particular dislike of mine are recordings of tracker action instruments made with microphones so close to the keyboard they sound more like a knitting machine than a pipe organ. Some suggest this aberation is authentic. I suggest it's not even quaint. Even some organ builders get things wrong placing stops such as horizontal trumpet stops for instance too close to the keyboard. If an organist is silly enough to use these too often or for overly long periods it can degrade their perception of balance disastrously. Then we have recording engineers fond of placing 'ambience' microphones at an absurd distance from the instrument adding their contribution at far too high a volume making some instruments sound as if they're playing from the bottom of the Grand Canyon.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 14, 2019, 04:52:28 AM
Re organ sound, I'm seeing that sound is a really major part of the appreciating a performance - just enjoying the noise. One that I've become completely addicted to, because of the sound, is this

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51E7-GhKBXL._SX355_.jpg)

I like to play it very loud on a system with enormous subwoofers!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 14, 2019, 09:17:58 AM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on November 14, 2019, 02:14:13 AM
So true but in an age where countless distortions of an original performance can be imposed due to recording technique and equipment used for replay the idea anyone commenting validly upon a particular tempi as wrong or right for any particular work is an absurdity.
Many organists when familiarising themselves with a particluar instrument and it's acoustics will have an assistant play a piece whilst they listen from a positions occupied by audience or congregation. A particular dislike of mine are recordings of tracker action instruments made with microphones so close to the keyboard they sound more like a knitting machine than a pipe organ. Some suggest this aberation is authentic. I suggest it's not even quaint. Even some organ builders get things wrong placing stops such as horizontal trumpet stops for instance too close to the keyboard. If an organist is silly enough to use these too often or for overly long periods it can degrade their perception of balance disastrously. Then we have recording engineers fond of placing 'ambience' microphones at an absurd distance from the instrument adding their contribution at far too high a volume making some instruments sound as if they're playing from the bottom of the Grand Canyon.

I still think it's mainly about preferences. If someone claims to know "how an organ (recording) should sound", than it's mostly his/her personal preference.
For instance: during summertime, I visit both the Martinikerk and the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen, NL.
At a Martini concert, for my preferred 'Martini sound', I pick a place (if availabe) somewhere around the middle, not too close to the organ. Otherwise it sometimes just gets too loud for me. And the 'overall' experience is, to my taste, just beautiful.
In the Der Aa Kerk, which is a higher building with more reverb, I begin to prefer sitting close more and more during the years. The sound isn't as direct as in the Martini and not that loud, and it's also great to listen to the differences between Rugwerk, Hoofdwerk and Bovenwerk. You can hear those differences very well up close, and you can hear where the sound is coming from. That's just awesome.

Which brings me to another well-known baroque organ in NL: the Schonat/Duyschot/Hagerbeer organ in the Nieuwe Kerk, Amsterdam.
With that particular instrument, I prefer recordings where you can hear those differences between the 'Werke' more than recordings where the engineers have chosen for a more incorporated 'general' sound.
A good example of a beautiful recording on that instrument is when Bram Beekman plays BWV 688 "Jesus Christus, unser Heiland" with the sound of the Bovenwerk floating as if it comes from above (Heaven).

I.c. the tempi and such: there are plenty of organists who might agree with the quote from earlier today:

QuoteWhat are the specifics of the instrument one is playing?
How are the church/hall acoustics?

Still, when all those organists were playing the same instrument, they would probably opt for different tempi, different stops and a different way of phrasing.
Yes, we can read books and articles by f.i. Ewald Kooiman and Gerhard Weinberger about 17th/18th century tempi and way of playing (fingering, dicition, phrasing, (non) legato et al), but it's probably best to read it as an inspiration and as a serious attempt to find out what musicians and composers thought about those things in those earlier times. It's not meant (IMHO) as The Holy Baroque Tempi Bible. Their findings should not be used (IMHO) to 'punish' 'stubborn' artists who have their own ideas about it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 14, 2019, 06:58:34 PM
Interesting to hear that the sound from speakers, presumably on the floor, reproduces the height. Is it caused solely by the reverb/echo?
Its not surprising since we have only two ears even when we "hear" the sound from ceiling. Probably our brain is creating the 3d sound  with the height.
Somehow, the middle part in Tomorrow Never Knows by the Beatles presents the height/distance effect, but it is created without reverb.
I am dilettante, but I suspect if the interior is wood or stone makes difference in the sound as well.


Quote from: Marc on November 14, 2019, 09:17:58 AM
I still think it's mainly about preferences. If someone claims to know "how an organ (recording) should sound", than it's mostly his/her personal preference.
For instance: during summertime, I visit both the Martinikerk and the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen, NL.
At a Martini concert, for my preferred 'Martini sound', I pick a place (if availabe) somewhere around the middle, not too close to the organ. Otherwise it sometimes just gets too loud for me. And the 'overall' experience is, to my taste, just beautiful.
In the Der Aa Kerk, which is a higher building with more reverb, I begin to prefer sitting close more and more during the years. The sound isn't as direct as in the Martini and not that loud, and it's also great to listen to the differences between Rugwerk, Hoofdwerk and Bovenwerk. You can hear those differences very well up close, and you can hear where the sound is coming from. That's just awesome.

Which brings me to another well-known baroque organ in NL: the Schonat/Duyschot/Hagerbeer organ in the Nieuwe Kerk, Amsterdam.
With that particular instrument, I prefer recordings where you can hear those differences between the 'Werke' more than recordings where the engineers have chosen for a more incorporated 'general' sound.
A good example of a beautiful recording on that instrument is when Bram Beekman plays BWV 688 "Jesus Christus, unser Heiland" with the sound of the Bovenwerk floating as if it comes from above (Heaven).

I.c. the tempi and such: there are plenty of organists who might agree with the quote from earlier today:

Still, when all those organists were playing the same instrument, they would probably opt for different tempi, different stops and a different way of phrasing.
Yes, we can read books and articles by f.i. Ewald Kooiman and Gerhard Weinberger about 17th/18th century tempi and way of playing (fingering, dicition, phrasing, (non) legato et al), but it's probably best to read it as an inspiration and as a serious attempt to find out what musicians and composers thought about those things in those earlier times. It's not meant (IMHO) as The Holy Baroque Tempi Bible. Their findings should not be used (IMHO) to 'punish' 'stubborn' artists who have their own ideas about it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 14, 2019, 07:11:29 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on November 14, 2019, 06:58:34 PM
Interesting to hear that the sound from speakers, presumably on the floor, reproduces the height. Is it caused solely by the reverb/echo?
Its not surprising since we have only two ears even when we "hear" the sound from ceiling. Probably our brain is creating the 3d sound  with the height.
Somehow, the middle part in Tomorrow Never Knows by the Beatles presents the height/distance effect, but it is created without reverb.
I am dilettante, but I suspect if the interior is wood or stone makes difference in the sound as well.

Yes, your own listening 'circumstances' can make a huge difference as well. My speakers sounded different in my living room compared to the listening studio where I had checked them out. But, since they even sounded a bit better at home, I did not mind. ;)
But since I listen a lot from headphones, I wasn't referring to that. I.c. the organs in the Der Aa Kerk (Groningen) and the Nieuwe Kerk (Amsterdam): the actual sound from the Bovenwerk really comes from behind/above, it's not caused by reverb or echo. Hence the name 'Bovenwerk' (Upper work). In some cases the 'Bovenwerk' is built behind the Hoofdwerk/Hauptwerk. Then some Dutch jokers speak of 'Achterwerk' ('behind work' or whatever), which also means 'buttocks' in Dutch.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 14, 2019, 07:17:11 PM
I didn't find this album on YT, but found his Bach works (OEHMS) and liked it. When you feel like, would you and other members please provide a review on his performance and instrument?

Quote from: Mandryka on November 14, 2019, 04:52:28 AM
Re organ sound, I'm seeing that sound is a really major part of the appreciating a performance - just enjoying the noise. One that I've become completely addicted to, because of the sound, is this

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51E7-GhKBXL._SX355_.jpg)

I like to play it very loud on a system with enormous subwoofers!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on November 15, 2019, 12:24:25 AM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on November 14, 2019, 02:14:13 AM
So true but in an age where countless distortions of an original performance can be imposed due to recording technique and equipment used for replay the idea anyone commenting validly upon a particular tempi as wrong or right for any particular work is an absurdity.
Many organists when familiarising themselves with a particluar instrument and it's acoustics will have an assistant play a piece whilst they listen from a positions occupied by audience or congregation. A particular dislike of mine are recordings of tracker action instruments made with microphones so close to the keyboard they sound more like a knitting machine than a pipe organ. Some suggest this aberation is authentic. I suggest it's not even quaint. Even some organ builders get things wrong placing stops such as horizontal trumpet stops for instance too close to the keyboard. If an organist is silly enough to use these too often or for overly long periods it can degrade their perception of balance disastrously. Then we have recording engineers fond of placing 'ambience' microphones at an absurd distance from the instrument adding their contribution at far too high a volume making some instruments sound as if they're playing from the bottom of the Grand Canyon.

Great to see another organist here!
Well, at least in old Spanish organs the horizontal reeds are placed right above the console for the most "live" wind and also ease of tuning. So they knew what they were doing. But they do get painfully loud (so does the full Brustwerk flue choir on an organ I regularly play) and should be used in moderation :)

Any specific examples of recordings that are miked "too close"? Even if the overall blend is often off, I do like being close to the pipes and being able to hear every minute aspect of their singing - not to mention also being close to the musician (if it is a tracker instrument, with the console at the foot of the organ) and feeling the intimacy of their music-making. But it's a very personal preference.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 15, 2019, 04:41:52 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on November 14, 2019, 07:17:11 PM
I didn't find this album on YT, but found his Bach works (OEHMS) and liked it. When you feel like, would you and other members please provide a review on his performance and instrument?


There are some comments about it on presto music

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8049859--hans-leo-hassler-organ-works.

It's the Scherer which has the sound which I find so visceral!

I should say that Raml, like all of them, may be a marmite musician. I love what he does here no more and no less than in Pachelbel and Scheidt. But I have a friend who thinks he's too serious, he says he plays everything like it's by J S Bach!

Hassler is someone who I really appreciate, partly because his music sounds so old, it's like I sense that he was aware and loved c15 music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 15, 2019, 04:49:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 15, 2019, 04:41:52 AM

I should say that Raml, like all of them, may be a marmite musician. I love what he does here no more and no less than in Pachelbel and Scheidt. But I have a friend who thinks he's too serious, he says he plays everything like it's by J S Bach!

It's just that Raml is very German in his approach to the music, - fortunately, since the music is German too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 17, 2019, 06:57:24 PM
Does anybody have the Lorenzo Ghielmi recordings from DHM? How are they? Also any opinion on his more recent recordings?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 17, 2019, 09:09:00 PM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on November 17, 2019, 06:57:24 PM
Does anybody have the Lorenzo Ghielmi recordings from DHM? How are they? Also any opinion on his more recent recordings?

I listened just a few weeks ago to one of his Frescobaldi masses, Missa Della Madonna. I felt it was competent without being inspired or inspiring.

I also remember listening to the French Suites on Passacaille, which I enjoyed, but felt much the same. Professional executions well enough recorded, neither more nor less than that.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 18, 2019, 03:31:55 AM
Quote from: Forever Electoral College on November 17, 2019, 06:57:24 PM
Does anybody have the Lorenzo Ghielmi recordings from DHM? How are they? Also any opinion on his more recent recordings?

I would say that Ghielmi is a very solid Bach interpreter, but in the chorale based works I find him (mostly) too aloof.
(I once heard him live and it didn't change my opinion.)
Probably my fav Ghielmi disc is the one he made for Passacaille with the 6 Trio Sonatas.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/b7/10/n5dcLNpP_o.jpg)

https://www.amazon.com/Trio-Sonatas-Lorenzo-Ghielmi/dp/B0043BNYYQ/?tag=goodmusicguideco
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 19, 2019, 08:10:52 PM
Thank you for your reviews!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on November 19, 2019, 10:15:59 PM
I found this one to be very nice. On an intimate little Ahrend organ, too. A concerto transcription, trio sonata, and other miscellaneous things.

(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/AM11762.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on November 19, 2019, 10:37:53 PM
Quote from: Ras on September 23, 2019, 11:06:17 AM
Bach on historic Dutch organ by Koito on DHM. A new release.
[asin]B07P83ZP63[/asin]

I'm late to the party, but my god, this is an interesting recording! Dorian toccata with inégalité!? A mind-blowing variety of articulation too.
There's so much of that mannerist sprezzatura in Koito's playing, more so than here previous recordings. Pieces threatening to devolve into nonsense (a la Lena Jacobsen), but somehow still musically coherent.
Her trio playing does seem more on the sloppy side - unless you like Rübsam with wildly offset voices :)
Also, I do like the microphone position. I don't think I've heard the Martini organ sing - chirp - scream like that before. Something about Koito's recordings I like is the consistently good recording quality.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 20, 2019, 03:21:21 AM
I've only listened to the Leipzig chorales on the recording. She takes them all quite fast, and I think there's a price to pay in terms of expressiveness - basically they all come off as bracing and cheerful, a bit lacking in seriousness and nobility - is that what organists call gravitas? I'm not sure that her approach makes much sense if you think the music is exegesis of the associated psalm.

The registrations and sound are bright and clear. The cost to that IMO is that you lose out on mystery.

It's as if she thinks that  these chorales are abstract bravura organ pieces.

Does she say anything in the booklet about what she's trying to achieve?

The Groningen Schnitger sounds like a musical instrument rather than a bellowing roaring beast, which is good. What a bass!

There's a chromatic passage in 656, the transition into the final section,  where she makes it sound a bit like one of those improvised orchestral sections in the Beatles' A Day in the Life. Memorable!

I like the 656 taken at her sort of pace - the first section can be a problem taken more slowly because it's so repetitive.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 20, 2019, 06:42:20 AM
She has written an essay, it's available online here, in French only

https://www.kei-koito.com/portfolio-item/reflexions-sur-les-oeuvres-et-leur-interpretation-par-kei-koito/

She's clearly very aware of the exegetical content of the Leipzig chorales. So for The Rivers of Babylon she says

QuoteL'atmosphère de la pièce est plutôt sereine, mais poignante à la fois, certaines parties augmentant l'affect de l'affliction par le chromatisme et le mode en mineur

This is something I missed completely in the performance, this poignancy, so I clearly wasn't listening well enough.

And of the great 656 she has some very interesting things to say about the text and the symbolism of the music, eg

QuoteÀ la fin du deuxième segment, un commentaire musical en courbure traduit le texte « All' Sünd' hast du getragen » (« Tu as porté le péché »), et déroule une spirale chromatique extrêmement intense et douloureuse, comportant la ligne descendante (passus duriusculus) finissant sur une basse de do dièse pour exprimer « ...sonst müssten wir verzagen » (« ...sans quoi nous n'aurions plus d'espoir »).

Il est très frappant que Bach ne s'attache précisément ici qu'à un seul mot, « Verzagen » (« désespéré »), qui le pousse à chercher un Affekt musical spécifique. C'est, pour J.-Cl. Zehnder (2009), ce qui caractérise la maîtrise du jeune Bach, en comparaison avec des œuvres tardives qui, elles, tiennent bien plus compte de l'intégralité d'un texte.

Après quelques mesures d'un passage chromatique saisissant, c'est par une transmutation aussi soudaine qu'inattendue qu'arrive le troisième segment, diatonique, le libérateur « Gib uns den Frieden » (« Donne-nous la paix »), en lieu et place de « Erbarm dich unser » (« Aie pitié de nous ») des premier et deuxième versets. Pour l'auditeur, c'est l'Univers tout entier qui s'ouvre.

I must say, I don't fully understand the point that Zehnder is making.

Before I read this it crossed my mind that Koito was part of a secular French bach organ tradition, with Chapuis as a prime example. Looks like, from her essay, I was completely wrong to think that. I shall revisit the recording with her comments in mind -- in my memory what I heard this morning doesn't completely tie up with what I read this afternoon.

What I can say though is that I don't recall hearing the chromatic passage of  656 played with more force than on Koito's recording, it may be me misremembering.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on November 20, 2019, 09:45:59 AM
The liner notes on the two of her Bach CDs for Claves I just got speak about the chorales as being musical commentary on the text. [Bach Organ Masterworks Volumes I and II] But they were not written by Koito. The author is listed as Gilles Cantagrel.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 22, 2019, 02:45:51 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51bH0GxjXQL._SX300_QL70_.jpg)


I feel rather inspired by the Gottfried Silbermann in Dresden today, largely through listening to Matthias Maierhoffer's new Art of Fugue, which I think is a fabulous recording. But the other discs recorded on the organ that I can find seem a bit less exciting, maybe Stefano Molardi doing late Bach chorales (very "cleanly", very "well behaved" - for "very" maybe substitute "too") seems like the best of the rest.

There's some other things mentioned on France org, but they haven't captured my imagination anywhere near as much as Maierhoffer. Am I missing anything?


https://france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.fra.rch&org=&tit=&oeu=&ins=Dresden&cdo=1&dvo=1&vno=1&cmd=Rechercher&edi=
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on November 22, 2019, 03:08:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 22, 2019, 02:45:51 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51bH0GxjXQL._SX300_QL70_.jpg)


maybe Stefano Molardi doing late Bach chorales (very "cleanly", very "well behaved" - for "very" maybe substitute "too") seems like the best of the rest.

You know my friend, I actually threw the whole Bach set by Molardi away, I could not bring myself to giving it away, afraid of ruining the senses of an innocent soul.
A very ill conceived project by Brilliant.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 22, 2019, 09:47:06 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 22, 2019, 02:45:51 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51bH0GxjXQL._SX300_QL70_.jpg)

I feel rather inspired by the Gottfried Silbermann in Dresden today, largely through listening to Matthias Maierhoffer's new Art of Fugue, which I think is a fabulous recording. But the other discs recorded on the organ that I can find seem a bit less exciting, maybe Stefano Molardi doing late Bach chorales (very "cleanly", very "well behaved" - for "very" maybe substitute "too") seems like the best of the rest.

There's some other things mentioned on France org, but they haven't captured my imagination anywhere near as much as Maierhoffer. Am I missing anything?

https://france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.fra.rch&org=&tit=&oeu=&ins=Dresden&cdo=1&dvo=1&vno=1&cmd=Rechercher&edi=

I most certainly like this one: Franz Raml playing a nice Bach collection.

(https://i.imgbox.com/kkYxWZCK.jpg)

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Orgel-Werke-Franz-Raml/dp/B000HSP0AK/?tag=goodmusicguideco
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 22, 2019, 12:14:48 PM
Excellent! A better trio sonata than on Ultrich Bohm's recording I think.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 22, 2019, 05:28:14 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 22, 2019, 09:47:06 AM
I most certainly like this one: Franz Raml playing a nice Bach collection.

(https://i.imgbox.com/kkYxWZCK.jpg)

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Orgel-Werke-Franz-Raml/dp/B000HSP0AK/?tag=goodmusicguideco

Yes I like the recording. I don't know anything about this organ but it sounds great. Was it you who said that JSB didn't like or use Silbermann ?.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 22, 2019, 08:33:12 PM
On 1 December 1736 he gave a two hour concert on a Gottfried Silbermann organ in Dresden. He inspected the Hilderbrandt organ at Naumburg with Gottfried Silbermann.

The booklet to Maierhofer's CD says something which caught my attention about GS organs, very badly translated into English!


QuoteAlso in contrast to the North German organs, we have in the sound of the Silbermann prin- cipals a high consonant portion of this sound with every pipe. This has also something to do with the Saxon language, the dialect, which also has this high consonant portion. One only needs to have a Saxon choir and a North German choir sing the same song, then one quickly gets the answer to the question about the special or- gan sound: North German vs. Middle German

The construction of the organ at the Hofkirche in Dresden wasn't started until 1750, and GS died before it was completed. This presumably explains why it's equally tuned. And it's instructive how lively the harmonies are in AoF despite the equal temperament.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on November 23, 2019, 06:10:59 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 22, 2019, 08:33:12 PM
On 1 December 1736 he gave a two hour concert on a Gottfried Silbermann organ in Dresden. He inspected the Hilderbrandt organ at Naumburg with Gottfried Silbermann.

The booklet to Maierhofer's CD says something which caught my attention about GS organs, very badly translated into English!


The construction of the organ at the Hofkirche in Dresden wasn't started until 1750, and GS died before it was completed. This presumably explains why it's equally tuned. And it's instructive how lively the harmonies are in AoF despite the equal temperament.

What does he mean by "consonant" sounds on the pipes? How does one know a pipe-consonant from a pipe-vowel?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 23, 2019, 09:55:28 PM
Chiff is consonantal.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 24, 2019, 04:46:04 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 23, 2019, 09:55:28 PM
Chiff is consonantal.

I suppose it might also be approximated, if less precisely, by thinking of it in terms of 'high in sibilants'.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 24, 2019, 05:09:13 AM
I'll tell you what would be fun, Jens, if you could find examples on YouTube of a Dresden choir and a North German choir, so I could hear the accent differences he's talking about.

I love these late baroque colourful big German organs!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 24, 2019, 06:53:16 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 24, 2019, 05:09:13 AM
I'll tell you what would be fun, Jens, if you could find examples on YouTube of a Dresden choir and a North German choir, so I could hear the accent differences he's talking about.

I love these late baroque colourful big German organs!

That shouldn't be SOOO difficult, actually. Dresdner Kreuzchor (or even Leipzig Thomaner) vs. Knabenchor Hannover, maybe... or Hamburger Knabenchor St. Nikolai (whichever has recorded anything that the Kreuzchor has.)

Or NDR Chor vs. MDR Rundfunkchor Leipzig or Dresdner Motettenchor

The question remains whether, as with orchestras over the last 100 years, the distinctness of these choirs (and the distinctness of the German that its members speak) has not receded considerably.

(A list - not complete but extensive - of German choirs can be found here (http://www.choere.de/).)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on November 24, 2019, 06:58:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 23, 2019, 09:55:28 PM
Chiff is consonantal.

Thank you, gentlemen.

I did have to look up the meaning of "chiff", but now that I know it...I must confess the truth turns out to be my first idea, which  I rejected as "that's too obvious, there must be something more abstruse and technical that's meant". :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: vers la flamme on November 24, 2019, 07:42:16 AM
@Mandryka, you once recommended this box set to me:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xkQAAOSwWbVdprum/s-l400.jpg)

It's Ton Koopman playing Bach works on various organs. Well, it's been a few months now and I'm just finally coming around on organ music enough to the point where I think I would actually find value in such a set. Do you stand by your recommendation? I like what little I've heard of the music here and it's going for cheaply enough anyway. Or do you think there is a better option out there? I have also been considering Helmut Walcha's box, which I understand is on the other end of the spectrum...?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 24, 2019, 08:02:48 AM
Yes, I think that there are enough good things in there to make me happy to have the set, it's adequately recorded, there are lots of different real authentic baroque organs, Koopman is never bad and sometimes really exceptional -- unforgettable for example in BWV 656 at Ottobeuren. Even Don Satz agreed with me about that!  There's a good selection of music, enough to give you a taste of the range of Bach's organ music without being so much that you'll drown.

Koopman also recorded some Buxtehude for Novalis which you may enjoy if it's in the set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 24, 2019, 11:00:48 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 24, 2019, 07:42:16 AM

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xkQAAOSwWbVdprum/s-l400.jpg)

It's Ton Koopman playing Bach works on various organs.

I think CD I in this set is a bit hectic (not unusual for Koopman), but the others are very good. He plays here with more authority than in his later Tel-Dec set and on equally or even more interesting authentic organs. A few of them are used on both sets. The recorded sound is also very good.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on November 24, 2019, 12:38:13 PM
1) I am assuming this 3 CD set is half of the bigger Novalis set...
[asin]B000F6ZOAK[/asin]
2) Does this double CD have any relation to either the Novalis or Teldec set? And if not, does anyone have an opinion on it?
[asin]B0000277NW[/asin]

FTR, I have the Teldec set.

ETA 1: there's two listings for the Hanssler duo. I revised to link to the cheaper listing.

ETA 2:  there's a second Novalis set, I assume with the other three CDs
[asin]B000MV8H4I[/asin]

ETA 3: there's also a second, cheaper listing for the 6 CD set, but all the MP vendors are unknown to me
[asin]B000059RHV[/asin]
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 24, 2019, 12:41:12 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 24, 2019, 11:00:48 AM
I think CD I in this set is a bit hectic (not unusual for Koopman),

Hectic yes, but thrilling! (I think therapists call this "reframing") Fabulous organ too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 24, 2019, 01:01:17 PM
Quote from: JBS on November 24, 2019, 12:38:13 PM
1) I am assuming this 3 CD set is half of the bigger Novalis set...
[asin]B000F6ZOAK[/asin]
2) Does this double CD have any relation to either the Novalis or Teldec set? And if not, does anyone have an opinion on it?
[asin]B0000277NW[/asin]

FTR, I have the Teldec set.

ETA 1: there's two listings for the Hanssler duo. I revised to link to the cheaper listing.

ETA 2:  there's a second Novalis set, I assume with the other three CDs
[asin]B000MV8H4I[/asin]

ETA 3: there's also a second, cheaper listing for the 6 CD set, but all the MP vendors are unknown to me
[asin]B000059RHV[/asin]

To my knowledge these are all from the Novalis set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 24, 2019, 01:05:46 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 24, 2019, 12:41:12 PM
Hectic yes, but thrilling! (I think therapists call this "reframing") Fabulous organ too.

Yes,  very good organ (Leonhardt's former Müller in Waalse Kerk), but these frames makes me unnecessary nervous. Maybe you may deduce something about my character from that.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 24, 2019, 01:10:39 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 24, 2019, 01:01:17 PM
To my knowledge these are all from the Novalis set.

You just 'beat' me to it.
To my knowledge, you are right.
Koopman recorded 6 discs for Novalis, which was intended to become an integral. All 6 discs are re-issued in the Brilliant Classics 6-cd box, which was issued in the (iirc) early 2000s for a laughable low price. I wasn't a real organ afficionado back then, but I immediately got hold of it.
Apparently, before that (in the late 1990s), Hänssler owned the license rights to those Novalis discs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on November 24, 2019, 01:15:56 PM
Thank you. I'm a bit cautious about ordering used CDs from unknown vendors, but that seems the best route to go.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 24, 2019, 01:17:43 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 24, 2019, 07:42:16 AM
@Mandryka, you once recommended this box set to me:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xkQAAOSwWbVdprum/s-l400.jpg)

It's Ton Koopman playing Bach works on various organs. Well, it's been a few months now and I'm just finally coming around on organ music enough to the point where I think I would actually find value in such a set. Do you stand by your recommendation? I like what little I've heard of the music here and it's going for cheaply enough anyway. Or do you think there is a better option out there? I have also been considering Helmut Walcha's box, which I understand is on the other end of the spectrum...?

I consider this (originally Novalis) stuff the best Koopman has to offer in Bach, together with his Trio Sonatas disc for Archiv/Deutsche Grammophon.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 24, 2019, 01:21:49 PM
Quote from: JBS on November 24, 2019, 06:58:18 AM
Thank you, gentlemen.

I did have to look up the meaning of "chiff", but now that I know it...I must confess the truth turns out to be my first idea, which  I rejected as "that's too obvious, there must be something more abstruse and technical that's meant". :D
Some 'authorities' describe the rattle and clunk of tracker action mechanisms as part of this.
Not that it matters to the majority of the congegation/audience far enough removed from these extraneous (authentic?) noises.
On the other hand far too many modern recordings are so closely miked I suspect the recording engineers are more interested in rattle and clunk than in the music itself. Brings us to another question. Why is it some modern organ builders place horizontal trumpet stops so close to the organists ears their hearing can actually be damaged through frequent use or desensitised in the upper regions in the short term? I've witnessed choristers, made to stand under these ear blasters, hold their hands over their ears in self defence.
Anyhow, sometimes I find all that chiff and chuff amusing. I have wonderful memories of the intruments in San Petronio chiffing and chuffing away along with rattles and clunks so loud as to be funny. I doubt I'd have enjoyed this if the repertiore had involved later works. Baroque lolly popps didn't appear to suffer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 24, 2019, 01:26:25 PM
Quote from: JBS on November 24, 2019, 01:15:56 PM
Thank you. I'm a bit cautious about ordering used CDs from unknown vendors, but that seems the best route to go.

His DG/Archiv recordings are good, too.
Here's a nice 9 cd boxset, including other Bach stuff (harpsichord, chamber music, motets).

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Orgel-Cembalowerke-Ton-Koopman/dp/B01N5Q5BGB/?tag=goodmusicguideco
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on November 24, 2019, 01:33:32 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 24, 2019, 01:26:25 PM
His DG/Archiv recordings are good, too.
Here's a nice 9 cd boxset, including other Bach stuff (harpsichord, chamber music, motets).

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Orgel-Cembalowerke-Ton-Koopman/dp/B01N5Q5BGB/?tag=goodmusicguideco

That works nicely...thank you, just ordered it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 24, 2019, 01:35:46 PM
duplicate post removed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 24, 2019, 01:38:40 PM
Quote from: JBS on November 24, 2019, 01:33:32 PM
That works nicely...thank you, just ordered it.

It's a bit off-topic, but man, the recordings of the violin/harpsichord sonatas, the flute/harpsichord pieces and the motets are really very very good. A splendid time is guaranteed for you. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 24, 2019, 01:49:51 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on November 24, 2019, 01:21:49 PM
Some 'authorities' describe the rattle and clunk of tracker action mechanisms as part of this.
Not that it matters to the majority of the congegation/audience far enough removed from these extraneous (authentic?) noises.
... Why is it some modern organ builders place horizontal trumpet stops so close to the organists ears their hearing can actually be damaged through frequent use or desensitised in the upper regions thorugh short term exposure ? I've witnessed choristers made to stand under these ear blasters hold their hands over their ears in self defence. Anyhow, I'm very fond of Chiff. I have wonderful memories of the intruments in San Petronia chiffing away along with rattles and clunks so loud as to be funny.

These trumpet stops en chamade have always irritated me except for Iberian 17c music. And modern organ builders have often used them in a stramge way. Have you heard the Marcussen organ of Jægersborg church? Karl Richter recorded a number of Bach works for DG on it in the 1960es. The trumpets dominate the sound picture in a truly baroque way (here baroque means bizarre) .

Chiff may often (on modern "neobaroque" organs) be too dominant, but usually - as I have written elsewhere - it is the white noise, which is their most annoying "feature", particularly in the principal plenum.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 24, 2019, 01:53:09 PM
Quote from: JBS on November 24, 2019, 01:33:32 PM
That works nicely...thank you, just ordered it.

Only 3 organ CDs in the Archive box. It can supplement but not replace the Novalis set.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 24, 2019, 01:58:09 PM
Quote from: Marc on November 24, 2019, 01:17:43 PM
I consider this (originally Novalis) stuff the best Koopman has to offer in Bach, together with his Trio Sonatas disc for Archiv/Deutsche Grammophon.

Completely agreed. To the trio sonatas from the Archiv set I would add the passacaglia, but I find the toccatas of the Archiv set rather irksome
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 24, 2019, 02:04:37 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 24, 2019, 01:53:09 PM
Only 3 organ CDs in the Archive box. It can supplement but not replace the Novalis set.

True that. And it's a pity Koopman didn't do BWV 544 for either Novalis or DG.
But the 6 non-organ DG discs are a treat.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 24, 2019, 02:07:16 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 24, 2019, 01:49:51 PM
These trumpet stops en chamade have always irritated me except for Iberian 17c music. And modern organ builders have often used them in a stramge way. Have you heard the Marcussen organ of Jægersborg church? Karl Richter recorded a number of Bach works for DG on it in the 1960es. The trumpets dominate the sound picture in a truly baroque way (here baroque means bizarre) .

Chiff may often (on modern "neobaroque" organs) be too dominant, but usually - as I have written elsewhere - it is the white noise, which is their most annoying "feature", particularly in the principal plenum.
Sorry, I don't know what you mean by 'white noise' in this context. I normally take such to refer to an artefact of inferior electronics used during a recording process although I know it has other meanings.
I've only heard the Marcussen organ in recordings and even though my audio system is no slouch I can't make a valid judgement. It appears to me however more organ recordings than I care to think about are very badly done, the major problems are either having way too much muddled delay from the building itself or placing mikes so close to the intrument it's absurd.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 24, 2019, 02:22:02 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on November 24, 2019, 02:07:16 PM
Sorry, I don't know what you mean by 'white noise' in this context. I normally take such to refer to an artefact of inferior electronics used during a recording process although I know it has other meanings.
I've only heard the Marcussen organ in recordings and even though my audio system is no slouch I can't make a valid judgement. It appears to me however more organ recordings than I care to think about are very badly done, the major problems are either having way too much muddled delay from the building itself or placing mikes so close to the intrument it's absurd.

The white noise is the sum of the chaos of high partials, particularly prominent in an equally tuned organ. May resemble tinnitus.

The idea of close miking is - do I think - to reduce the hall, but of course the mikes shouldn't be put so close that one can't perceive the "geography" of the organ (HW,BW,RP et.c.). However of these two bad things I prefer too close miking to too distant miking. But there are organs and venues which exclude fair recordings.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 24, 2019, 05:09:25 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 24, 2019, 02:22:02 PM
The white noise is the sum of the chaos of high partials, particularly prominent in an equally tuned organ. May resemble tinnitus.
Indeed, I've had that painful experience too often and found myself wondering what the organ builders were thinking.

QuoteThe idea of close miking is - do I think - to reduce the hall, but of course the mikes shouldn't be put so close that one can't perceive the "geography" of the organ (HW,BW,RP et.c.). However of these two bad things I prefer too close miking to too distant miking. But there are organs and venues which exclude fair recordings.
Some recently constructed organs I've encountered have the ranks scattered all over the place, possibly in the interest of 'looking modern'. The result has my brain struggling to 'reconstruct the music. A difficult concept to describe. Organs in venues which prevent decent recording are too numerous. I blame organ manufacturers for being seduced by the smell of money. The Tokyo cathedral comes to mind. A potentially brilliant tracker action instrument in an acoustic that reminded me of the Grand Canyon. Others however appear to be very impressed by it. On the other hand there are some instruments that can be both bad and brilliant depending upon where the listener places themselves. The Rieger organ at Scot's Church Collins St, Melbourne is utterly seductive if you sit dead opposite. Sit in the main body of the church and the over short reverberation has it sounding dead. Still, organists frequently travel from the other side of the planet to play it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajofs4waeL0&spfreload=1
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 24, 2019, 05:13:28 PM
 Duplicate post deleted.
I've no idea what I'm doing that keeps triggering this.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on November 24, 2019, 07:27:26 PM
I ordered the box set. I can't  wait. Thank you, gents!

.
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 24, 2019, 07:42:16 AM
@Mandryka, you once recommended this box set to me:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xkQAAOSwWbVdprum/s-l400.jpg)

It's Ton Koopman playing Bach works on various organs. Well, it's been a few months now and I'm just finally coming around on organ music enough to the point where I think I would actually find value in such a set. Do you stand by your recommendation? I like what little I've heard of the music here and it's going for cheaply enough anyway. Or do you think there is a better option out there? I have also been considering Helmut Walcha's box, which I understand is on the other end of the spectrum...?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on November 24, 2019, 07:36:18 PM
I too gave into temptation ordered it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 26, 2019, 04:44:12 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 24, 2019, 01:05:46 PM
(Leonhardt's former Müller in Waalse Kerk)

Indeed.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 28, 2019, 06:21:57 AM
I do not know if anybody (e.g. Jens) know, but two new Bach organ integrals are being recorded:

1) Marie-Ange Leurent and Eric Lebrun in collaboration (Monthabor Music), 6 volumes á 2 CDs released so far.

2) Enrico Viccardi for Fugatto, 6 volumes á 1 or 2 CDs released so far.

Edit: I have of course ordered the released CDs from both sets.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on November 28, 2019, 06:26:04 AM
Quote from: JBS on November 24, 2019, 12:38:13 PM

[asin]B000059RHV[/asin]

According to the Amazon reviews JS Bach was some sort of punk rocker, I thought I had a good amount of Bach, I guess not :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 28, 2019, 09:38:42 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 28, 2019, 06:21:57 AM
I do not know if anybody (e.g. Jens) know, but two new Bach organ integrals are being recorded:

1) Marie-Ange Leurent and Eric Lebrun in collaboration (Monthabor Music), 6 volumes á 2 CDs released so far.

2) Enrico Viccardi for Fugatto, 6 volumes á 1 or 2 CDs released so far.

Edit: I have of course ordered the released CDs from both sets.

'Edit' not needed. :laugh:

This doesn't mean that I'm not interested in what your opinions are. So, if you have checked them out... please share. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 28, 2019, 09:46:54 PM
Quote from: hvbias on November 28, 2019, 06:26:04 AM
According to the Amazon reviews JS Bach was some sort of punk rocker, I thought I had a good amount of Bach, I guess not :)

It's always great fun when Amazon swtiches links, but forgets to change/switch the reviews. Like wanting to read reviews of Tallis' Lamentations of Jeremiah and being confronted with lines like "darn, those guitar solos really rock!".

Apparently they sold some 'other' stuff under this link earlier. But, mind you, if one Bach interpreter can be called 'punk', then I guess it must be Ton Koopman. He sometimes plays at punk rock speed indeed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 29, 2019, 12:48:59 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 28, 2019, 06:21:57 AM
I do not know if anybody (e.g. Jens) know, but two new Bach organ integrals are being recorded:

1) Marie-Ange Leurent and Eric Lebrun in collaboration (Monthabor Music), 6 volumes á 2 CDs released so far.

2) Enrico Viccardi for Fugatto, 6 volumes á 1 or 2 CDs released so far.

Edit: I have of course ordered the released CDs from both sets.

Thanks for the notification!!!

If anyone cares:

Here are the organs used in the first five volumes of Viccardi's set:

Masioni, St.Maria Assunta, Giubiasco, CH
Amati/Giani, St.Lorenzo, Maneribo, IT
Chiminelli, St.Maurizio, Breno, IT
Zanin, St.Babila, Milan, IT
Dell'Orto/Lanzini, St.Maria Assunta, Vigliano Biellese, IT
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 29, 2019, 10:19:53 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 28, 2019, 09:38:42 PM
'Edit' not needed. :laugh:

This doesn't mean that I'm not interested in what your opinions are. So, if you have checked them out... please share. :)

It may take a couple of weeks until I receive them.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: vers la flamme on November 29, 2019, 11:25:24 AM
I ordered the Koopman set as well. Very excited to receive it.

Edit: Damn, the seller has cancelled my order... and it looks like you all have ordered up all the cheap copies.  :o Well, back to the drawing board, I guess.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on November 29, 2019, 11:42:17 AM
Patience, I don't think the set has become rare yet.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: vers la flamme on November 29, 2019, 11:43:55 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 29, 2019, 11:42:17 AM
Patience, I don't think the set has become rare yet.
It's not, I'll find one. I'm just a little miffed that they cancelled my order with no explanation or even communication.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2019, 12:18:54 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 29, 2019, 11:25:24 AM
I ordered the Koopman set as well. Very excited to receive it.

Edit: Damn, the seller has cancelled my order... and it looks like you all have ordered up all the cheap copies.  :o Well, back to the drawing board, I guess.

Another one to think about, if you want to dip your toe in, is Leonhardt

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51qr9JEzE3L.jpg)

Or even

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51xbMIurnxL.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on November 29, 2019, 03:49:00 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 29, 2019, 11:25:24 AM
I ordered the Koopman set as well. Very excited to receive it.

Edit: Damn, the seller has cancelled my order... and it looks like you all have ordered up all the cheap copies.  :o Well, back to the drawing board, I guess.

Remember that beside this Brilliant set, it's available as two sets of 3 CDs each from Novalis. They are not cheap, but the prices don't seem outrageous.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 01, 2019, 08:03:59 AM
(https://www.hraudio.net/covers2/3/8193rev2.jpg)


Attention everybody, a very fine orgelbuchlein here and easily passed over. Good instrument (Arlesheim) well recorded, serious interpretation, beautifully conceived registrations. Bernhard Klapprott, maybe I should say, the great Bernhard Klapprott, on the organ. CDs 18 and 19 of the big Aeolus box.

The other things ain't half bad either - trio sonata etc, concerto etc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on December 01, 2019, 10:30:26 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 01, 2019, 08:03:59 AM
(https://www.hraudio.net/covers2/3/8193rev2.jpg)


Attention everybody, a very fine orgelbuchlein here and easily passed over. Good instrument (Arlesheim) well recorded, serious interpretation, beautifully conceived registrations. Bernhard Klapprott, maybe I should say, the great Bernhard Klapprott, on the organ. CDs 18 and 19 of the big Aeolus box.

The other things ain't half bad either - trio sonata etc, concerto etc.

I have that box, obviously for the playing by Ewald, first 8 CD'S if memory serves me correct, but I am not that positive about Klapprott. Good instrument, yes, well recorded, yes, serious, well yes, but not always, good registrations, also yes, but I simply miss the last ounce of excellence which would convince me, that it is truly a magnificent interpretation.
The other things ain't half bad either, puzzles me excessively!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2019, 02:38:02 PM
Any thoughts on this disk? I freely admit to not knowing Kee at all, thought the project sounded interesting though...

[asin]B000000A4B[/asin]

8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 01, 2019, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2019, 02:38:02 PM
Any thoughts on this disk? I freely admit to not knowing Kee at all, thought the project sounded interesting though...

[asin]B000000A4B[/asin]

8)
Not familiar with his Bach but I've always been impressed with his improvisations one of which I heard live at St Patrick's Cathedral. Melbourne on an admittedly blunderbuss of an instrument. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRpAm6yi4w
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2019, 04:14:52 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 01, 2019, 03:46:39 PM
Not familiar with his Bach but I've always been impressed with his improvisations one of which I heard live at St Patrick's Cathedral. Melbourne on an admittedly blunderbuss of an instrument. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRpAm6yi4w

Nice! Apparently, the organ he is playing is one he was curator of, so to speak, for a considerable period. Couple that with his superbly skilful playing and the result is very acceptable. I should probably go to Chandos' website...

8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 01, 2019, 08:19:01 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2019, 02:38:02 PM
Any thoughts on this disk? I freely admit to not knowing Kee at all, thought the project sounded interesting though...

[asin]B000000A4B[/asin]

8)

https://en.wikipedia.owww.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Kee-Piet.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Kee-Piet.htm
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 01, 2019, 09:24:10 PM
Quote from: "Harry" on December 01, 2019, 10:30:26 AM
I have that box, obviously for the playing by Ewald, first 8 CD'S if memory serves me correct, but I am not that positive about Klapprott. Good instrument, yes, well recorded, yes, serious, well yes, but not always, good registrations, also yes, but I simply miss the last ounce of excellence which would convince me, that it is truly a magnificent interpretation.
The other things ain't half bad either, puzzles me excessively!

Ain't half bad = rather good. I'm not sure if it's just a British way of speaking, or whether Americans use it too.

(Thanks for listening carefully to it, by the way!)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 02, 2019, 12:35:23 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2019, 02:38:02 PM
Any thoughts on this disk? I freely admit to not knowing Kee at all, thought the project sounded interesting though...

[asin]B000000A4B[/asin]

8)

In my opinion Piet Kee was very variable in recordings. Sometimes he was rather pedestrian, and if my memory serves me well (it may be about 5 years since I last listened to this one), this is one of his more earthbound recordings. The organ is of course a big monster, but others have shown, that it is perfectly possible to make it "take off".
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2019, 05:07:05 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 02, 2019, 12:35:23 AM
In my opinion Piet Kee was very variable in recordings. Sometimes he was rather pedestrian, and if my memory serves me well (it may be about 5 years since I last listened to this one), this is one of his more earthbound recordings. The organ is of course a big monster, but others have shown, that it is perfectly possible to make it "take off".
Quote from: Marc on December 01, 2019, 08:19:01 PM
https://en.wikipedia.owww.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Kee-Piet.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Kee-Piet.htm
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 01, 2019, 03:46:39 PM
Not familiar with his Bach but I've always been impressed with his improvisations one of which I heard live at St Patrick's Cathedral. Melbourne on an admittedly blunderbuss of an instrument. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRpAm6yi4w

Thank you all. I see 4 disks on Chandos where he does Bach exclusively, one other shared with Buxtehude, and a couple of others also shared. I may go ahead a grab a couple to see. Maybe I'll get lucky!

8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 02, 2019, 05:37:39 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2019, 05:07:05 AM
Thank you all. I see 4 disks on Chandos where he does Bach exclusively, one other shared with Buxtehude, and a couple of others also shared. I may go ahead a grab a couple to see. Maybe I'll get lucky!

8)

Of these I would prefer:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7932350--bach-organ-music-volume-4

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7934467--bach-organ-music-volume-2

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7934474--piet-kee-plays-bach-buxtehude

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7934380--piet-kee-plays-bruhns-buxtehude

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7934471--piet-kee-plays-buxtehude-sweelinck

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2019, 08:50:23 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 02, 2019, 05:37:39 AM
Of these I would prefer:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7932350--bach-organ-music-volume-4

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7934467--bach-organ-music-volume-2

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7934474--piet-kee-plays-bach-buxtehude

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7934380--piet-kee-plays-bruhns-buxtehude

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7934471--piet-kee-plays-buxtehude-sweelinck

Excellent, thanks for curating my list. :)

8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 02, 2019, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2019, 08:50:23 AM
Excellent, thanks for curating my list. :)

8)

Here you can listen to volume 1 and find out whether you like it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDs0nP9dvQI

Playing Bach on the Dutch telly in the late 1980s/early 1990s (I think):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CThxncnO8eU
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on December 02, 2019, 09:55:09 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 02, 2019, 08:54:51 AM
Here you can listen to volume 1 and find out whether you like it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDs0nP9dvQI

Playing Bach on the Dutch telly in the late 1980s/early 1990s (I think):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CThxncnO8eU

Uhmmm you have to have a strong stomach for this. I get nauseous listening to it. No, really! :(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 02, 2019, 11:20:34 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on December 02, 2019, 09:55:09 AM
Uhmmm you have to have a strong stomach for this. I get nauseous listening to it. No, really! :(

Yes, my stomach is very strong. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on December 03, 2019, 04:24:25 PM
Have people been listening to Masaaki Suzuki's ongoing project? He's on the Silbermann at Freiberg? That means Bach played it? What do people think of Suzuki and these recordings? These recordings are being presented in "HD" on Amazon's new streaming option. I'm not a technical person but sound should be a selling point. Perhaps. How is his style different from someone like Klapprott or the musicians who show up on the Berlin Classics series.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 03, 2019, 06:24:13 PM
Quote from: milk on December 03, 2019, 04:24:25 PM
Have people been listening to Masaaki Suzuki's ongoing project? He's on the Silbermann at Freiberg? That means Bach played it? What do people think of Suzuki and these recordings? These recordings are being presented in "HD" on Amazon's new streaming option. I'm not a technical person but sound should be a selling point. Perhaps. How is his style different from someone like Klapprott or the musicians who show up on the Berlin Classics series.
His approach is far too idiosyncratic and at times amateurish for me to want to explore his complete organ recordings.
His registration is often downright wrong, his rhythm and timing are all over the place with inexplicable breaks as if he's lost his place reading the sheet music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLEag-NJUWA
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 03, 2019, 06:47:34 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 02, 2019, 12:35:23 AM
In my opinion Piet Kee was very variable in recordings. Sometimes he was rather pedestrian, and if my memory serves me well (it may be about 5 years since I last listened to this one), this is one of his more earthbound recordings. The organ is of course a big monster, but others have shown, that it is perfectly possible to make it "take off".

Thank you for the review. It is a good guidance. Not all reviews have to be positive. I welcome skeptical/negative reviews as well. It seems that your favorite is Alain.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 03, 2019, 08:07:53 PM
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 03, 2019, 06:47:34 PM
Thank you for the review. It is a good guidance. Not all reviews have to be positive. I welcome skeptical/negative reviews as well. It seems that your favourite is Alain.
If you mean Marie Claire Alain she's at the top of my list but sadly many of her recordings aren't up to scratch sonically.
Of late I've become besotted with Matthias HavingA (had to capitalise the A as spellcheck insisted on removing it. )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuoxijdFKA0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pxQZVBlnbA ( sound on this clip is sadly ahead of  vision)

By the way, here's a clip of Marie-Claire Alain feeling her way around an unfamiliar instrument for the first time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiLHVIEMm0Y


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on December 03, 2019, 11:45:41 PM
My opinion is that Masaaki Suzuki doesn't understand Bach as I would expect. I attended a live concert with him in the Martini kerk in Groningen, and was immensely disappointed. Registrations indeed all over the place, playing as loud as he could, improvised in an inappropriate way, no rest for the wicked actually. No, Bach isn't his forte and he should stay away from the organ works. He reminded me of Molardi who also foolishly recorded the complete works, much to my chagrin. I threw the discs away, so bad I found them. Bach is not an easy dinner as many organists think it is.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 04, 2019, 03:44:19 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on December 03, 2019, 11:45:41 PM
My opinion is that Masaaki Suzuki doesn't understand Bach as I would expect.

Neither as I would expect, at least concerning his Bach organ recordings. Surprising, because many of his Bach harpsichord recordings are top-notch.

I have also deselected his Bach organ recordings so far. His Sweelinck resording is too "cool" to me, but he has made two eatable Buxtehude recordings.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on December 04, 2019, 04:39:35 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 04, 2019, 03:44:19 AM
Neither as I would expect, at least concerning his Bach organ recordings. Surprising, because many of his Bach harpsichord recordings are top-notch.

I have also deselected his Bach organ recordings so far. His Sweelinck recording is too "cool" to me, but he has made two eatable Buxtehude recordings.

I quite enjoyed the Sweelinck disc, but you are right in saying its rather cool.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 04, 2019, 06:11:33 AM
Quote from: milk on December 03, 2019, 04:24:25 PM
Have people been listening to Masaaki Suzuki's ongoing project? He's on the Silbermann at Freiberg? That means Bach played it? What do people think of Suzuki and these recordings? These recordings are being presented in "HD" on Amazon's new streaming option. I'm not a technical person but sound should be a selling point. Perhaps. How is his style different from someone like Klapprott or the musicians who show up on the Berlin Classics series.

I just listened to the chorales and partita on the Freiburg recording.


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71jNaZUd%2BPL._SX466_.jpg)

The image of the Cd is of two mollusc shells, and that rather well represents the style - beautiful, very clear structure, quite colourful and hard as nails.

The partita makes me wish he'd record some Bohm.

He certainly likes to play loud! But not always.

It's a recording with tons of personality.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 04, 2019, 06:16:32 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on December 03, 2019, 11:45:41 PM

, improvised in an inappropriate way,

That's interesting Harry. Let me ask a question to the assembled organologues and bachophiles.. Is there a good way to improvise when playing a Bach score?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 04, 2019, 11:54:00 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 04, 2019, 06:16:32 AM
That's interesting Harry. Let me ask a question to the assembled organologues and bachophiles.. Is there a good way to improvise when playing a Bach score?
Only for vocalists.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 04, 2019, 11:58:42 AM
This is what Stef Tuinstra says in his essay on Georg Bohm

QuoteIn the present recording I have attempted to apply a facet of Baroque performance practice that is still not widely cultivated, namely the addition of improvised elements to existing compositions. These include the use of basso continuo and other added notes to fill in chords, in keeping with the style of Bach's cantatas. From the days of Michael Praetorius (1571-1621 Syntagma Musicum) an ideal of organ playing was to imitate a complete orchestra and choir. Johann Matheson (1681 1764) lamented the fact that, in his time, this ideal had not been widely pursued, apparently because it made such high demands on the player.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 04, 2019, 12:57:17 PM
If I can take things sideways for a moment.
I'd like to start a new thread (not necessarily in this section) on young and/or upcoming organists worth keeping an eye on ( ear on, to be pedantic).
Anyhow, here's an example who isn't all that bad to look at either. I have none of her recordings yet. However in all the Youtube clips I've listened to I can't fault her technique or expression.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnQ6are1Ju0
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 04, 2019, 05:16:18 PM
Sister X isn't half bad in a very soothing way with J S B...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asMxbQ9Mb0Q

...then she goes and scares the living daylights out of you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho7MKEBxFe4
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 04, 2019, 08:58:50 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 04, 2019, 06:16:32 AM
That's interesting Harry. Let me ask a question to the assembled organologues and bachophiles.. Is there a good way to improvise when playing a Bach score?

I know someone who vastly prefers playing e.g. Froberger or Frescobaldi to Bach, just because he thinks that Bach can be very prescriptive at times.

Some people improvise introductions e.g. to BWV 542 (or even use his Pedal-exercitium as an introduction), on harpsichord I've heard Jean Rondeau improvise a prelude to, if I remember correctly, one of Bach's lute suites (?). But the prelude was in the style of a Louis Couperin unmeasured prelude, and it worked better in French works than with Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on December 04, 2019, 09:11:50 PM
Quote from: "Harry" on December 03, 2019, 11:45:41 PM
My opinion is that Masaaki Suzuki doesn't understand Bach as I would expect. I attended a live concert with him in the Martini kerk in Groningen, and was immensely disappointed. Registrations indeed all over the place, playing as loud as he could, improvised in an inappropriate way, no rest for the wicked actually. No, Bach isn't his forte and he should stay away from the organ works. He reminded me of Molardi who also foolishly recorded the complete works, much to my chagrin. I threw the discs away, so bad I found them. Bach is not an easy dinner as many organists think it is.
thanks. I just have no idea what's in keeping with the conception of the music. I just find them too grand (same for his cantatas). I'm not musically knowledgeable but I most enjoy the Berlin Silbermann series. The registrations are so imaginative and the sounds rough and interesting. Someone said they were unrestored organs. I also like Isoir but I wonder if some here find him too smooth.
I do think Suzuki is a genius but maybe not here.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 04, 2019, 09:25:01 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 03, 2019, 06:24:13 PM
His approach is far too idiosyncratic and at times amateurish for me to want to explore his complete organ recordings.
His registration is often downright wrong, his rhythm and timing are all over the place with inexplicable breaks as if he's lost his place reading the sheet music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLEag-NJUWA

It's not the best performance, and certainly not on a very distinguished organ (at least how S. handles it) but I think the registration - what sounds like a Frenchy Grand Jeu - isn't too bad or "wrong". Lots of actual French "Grand Jeu" movements with fugal sections like this. And almost as a general rule, French "Fugue Graves" were played on reeds. I guess S. wanted to bring out the "french" character, I think it's a bit harsh to judge him based on a live performance too.

I just listened to his "Wedge" BWV 548 at Martinikerk, I would describe it as subtly flamboyant, tons of spice but still very earthbound. Lots of well-placed little agogics that might be what put off dissily, but I think they're beautiful and suitably placed. (there's always a fine line between well-placed agogics and sounding like a sightreading beginner)
Not Bach I'd reach for everyday, but certainly not that bad :)

Also, he elected to have gentler registrations in some works like BWV 537, and does the "Build-up" approach rather than the Plenum approach in Bach's Passacaglia, a bit of rarity for organists so involved in the HIP world like him. So I don't think he likes it loud and boisterous as much as we think he does.

Anyways,
A wonderful BWV 552, played by Bram Brandemann on an absolutely warm and seductive organ in Buitenkerk Kampen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGrsXkNFx7c
I've been really liking this series of recordings by Brandemann.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 04, 2019, 09:40:01 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 04, 2019, 09:25:01 PM
It's not the best performance, and certainly not on a very distinguished organ (at least how S. handles it) but I think the registration - what sounds like a Frenchy Grand Jeu - isn't too bad or "wrong".
A wonderful BWV 552, played by Bram Brandemann on an absolutely warm and seductive organ in Buitenkerk Kampen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGrsXkNFx7c
I've been really liking this series of recordings by Brandemann.
Now here's a conundrum. The difference between 'wrong' and 'preferred'. Until and unless we can reincarnate JSB I doubt well ever have a definitive reference for correct or incorrect (according to JSB himself) Instance the Brandemann  BWV 552. I hear a wonderful instrument, sensitively recorded and played with excellent technique yet for me the performance lacks any rhythmic lilt. That's only a preference as I have no way of knowing if such is 'correct' but to me without that almost skipping rhythm BWV 552 falls flat. In other words I prefer the prelude, for instance, to almost dance along. But here's another thing, Bach's organ works can be performed in a number of ways and still be spellbinding. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDVfbFjOFDQ
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on December 04, 2019, 11:03:51 PM
I know this has all been discussed in this thread many times, but Foccroulle certainly has made an attempt to bop around to different interesting organs and I think I like the registrations he chooses are effective. The topic of organ music seems too complicated for me to understand well but I think he's another one that I've enjoyed. I'm sort of mentioning the stuff attuned to historical organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 04, 2019, 11:38:50 PM
Quote from: milk on December 04, 2019, 09:11:50 PM
thanks. I just have no idea what's in keeping with the conception of the music. 

Have you heard his old recording of CU3?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QJi9aovGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on December 05, 2019, 05:23:10 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 04, 2019, 11:38:50 PM
Have you heard his old recording of CU3?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QJi9aovGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Hmm...I might have this...perhaps this is the one that got a good bit of praise - maybe D. Satz recommended this one? I'll have to revisit it/take a look.
I forgot about that. I have to admit I skip around a lot in Bach's organ music. It's been a few years since I concentrated on CU3 despite it's having some pretty famous pieces.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 05, 2019, 10:12:30 AM
Quote from: milk on December 05, 2019, 05:23:10 AM
Hmm...I might have this...perhaps this is the one that got a good bit of praise - maybe D. Satz recommended this one? I'll have to revisit it/take a look.
I forgot about that. I have to admit I skip around a lot in Bach's organ music. It's been a few years since I concentrated on CU3 despite it's having some pretty famous pieces.

Yeah, Don liked it a lot, iirc.
I wasn't all that impressed though. Too superficial; Suzuki's approach didn't really touch me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 05, 2019, 11:04:23 AM
Pieter Van Dijk has so far released 5 discs of Bach Organ works. Has anybody listened?

https://www.dmp-records.nl/nu-verkrijgbaar-album-5-van-bach-complete-organ-works-available-now-album-5-of-bach-complete-organ-works/

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 05, 2019, 11:08:15 AM
What he said was as follows

QuoteSuzuki has no time or inclination for meditation; like a bull, he powers his way through this music, just itching to get on with the journey. I can't deny that there's a stern quality to the reading which could well turn off many listeners, but there are other sides to the performance. The levels of determination and inevitability are invincible. When the journey begins, you feel and join it. This is a "take no prisoners" version with sufficient poetry to be a great alternative to Rogg. Suzuki's hero is tough and posesses a no-nonsense attitude.


Don's position was that it's a game of two halves. First half Suzuki scores, in the second all he scores is an own goal. I'm listening to him do 678 and he's got me dancing round the room, clapping and shouting "praise the lordy" And OMG here comes 679 and I'm exhausted already!

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 05, 2019, 01:13:44 PM
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 05, 2019, 11:04:23 AM
Pieter Van Dijk has so far released 5 discs of Bach Organ works. Has anybody listened?

https://www.dmp-records.nl/nu-verkrijgbaar-album-5-van-bach-complete-organ-works-available-now-album-5-of-bach-complete-organ-works/
I suspect I'm not using the most accurate term in describing a dancelike stress on the downbeat as 'lilt' . I'm happy to be corrected. In the clip below it's evident Van Dijk understands the concept so often lost when organists imagine all Bach's organ works must exhibit a serious gravitas throughout. We know JS B himself did have a sense of humour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTa7JnAVIcQ

PS: Love the squeak the opening of the organ case makes at the beginning of this clip.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Ratliff on December 05, 2019, 01:44:20 PM
Dipped into the Koopman/Teldec. Probably not destined to be a favorite. Started with the Trio Sonata no 1. He chose registration which did not give equal weight to the two treble voices. One was dominant, the other I strained to hear. On the other hand, the Alla Breve came off well.

My references are Alain III and Johannson (Hanssler).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 05, 2019, 01:49:39 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 05, 2019, 01:13:44 PM
I suspect I'm not using the most accurate term in describing a dancelike stress on the downbeat as 'lilt' . I'm happy to be corrected. In the clip below it's evident Van Dijk understands the concept so often lost when organists imagine all Bach's organ works must exhibit a serious gravitas throughout. We know JS B himself did have a sense of humour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTa7JnAVIcQ

PS: Love the squeak the opening of the organ case makes at the beginning of this clip.

He reminds me of Walcha's first recording. I'd buy a couple of the recordings -- CU3 and Leipzig Chorales -- but I can't work out how to order them!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 05, 2019, 01:54:43 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 05, 2019, 01:49:39 PM
He reminds me of Walcha's first recording. I'd buy a couple of the recordings -- CU3 and Leipzig Chorales -- but I can't work out how to order them!
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/artists/3011--helmut-walcha
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 09, 2019, 03:04:16 PM
Thank you for the helpful reviews, suggesting that the performance was jubilant and reminiscent of Walcha(!!), separately. Certainly I must take them as unusually positive reviews. I will try to make order of some discs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 09, 2019, 03:38:31 PM
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 05, 2019, 11:04:23 AM
Pieter Van Dijk has so far released 5 discs of Bach Organ works. Has anybody listened?

https://www.dmp-records.nl/nu-verkrijgbaar-album-5-van-bach-complete-organ-works-available-now-album-5-of-bach-complete-organ-works/

Are they available outside Holland?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 10, 2019, 12:28:45 AM
You need to email them at info@dmp-records.nl
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 11, 2019, 01:37:11 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on June 01, 2019, 12:04:34 PM
(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0760623212067.jpg)

Anyone heard this one? Seems promising, but no samples online. (MDG's frustrating thing of not having any of their music on spotify etc., and only occasionally itunes)

Finally convinced myself to get this disc. Will post reactions, although it would be great for anyone familiar with it to tell us what to expect.

Based on the samples, Fischer's playing seems very "Dutch" - conservative and sober, but very nuanced. But also balanced by extrovert registrations e.g. the famous Friedrich Besser 32' reed in the pedal that Bach liked (well, at least what Flentrop imagines it to sound like) featuring throughout the E-flat major Prelude etc.

Any other good CU III's? This has been something I've wanted to explore, but haven't really gotten to. Surprise me - it seems like it's really hard music to play (let alone play well), and the recordings I've listened a lot to - Wiersma, Beekman at Nieuwe Kerk, to a lesser degree James Johnstone in Nidaros and Rübsam in Freiberg - have their respective high and low points.

A meaty - orgasmic almost - 552 by Kooiman at Weingarten (his recording of the Fugue is significantly less interesting, I think)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti6gEBMnsVE

I'm looking into Bert Matter too, but there isn't a lot of sound samples online and I will have to go through the relative hassle of ordering through Boeijenga (not their fault, just international shipping etc.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 11, 2019, 08:46:21 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 11, 2019, 01:37:11 AM
[...]
Any other good CU III's? This has been something I've wanted to explore, but haven't really gotten to. Surprise me - it seems like it's really hard music to play (let alone play well), and the recordings I've listened a lot to - Wiersma, Beekman at Nieuwe Kerk, to a lesser degree James Johnstone in Nidaros and Rübsam in Freiberg ...- have their respective high and low points.
[...]

Availability might be a problem, but I've always liked Edgar Krapp.
He's playing the Joachim Wagner organs in Brandenburg and Treuenbrietzen.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000006LIZ/?tag=goodmusicguideco
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000DC17O/?tag=goodmusicguideco
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 11, 2019, 08:54:13 AM
Cu 3 is one of those things I've collected, though I've managed to resist so far getting that MDG recording on the Flentrop. I think that you should try to hear Bert Matter.


But in truth I think there are loads of fabulous recordings of it - Coudurier, David Franke, Wiersma, Nordstoga, Krapp, Walcha, Astronio, Felix Friedrich, Kooiman on the Silberman organs and more . . . And in the sets there's Koopman and Foccroulle and Alain and others . . .

There's a lot of stylistic variety in the music, it's a compendium of styles really. The stile antiquo chorales at the start are, IMO, the hardest for organists to make fly off the page.

I wonder what you'll make of Jens Christensen.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 11, 2019, 05:01:33 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61luunfyAHL._SX355_.jpg)

A recording that Dominy Clements on musicweb recommended in place of Fischer, gave it a try. So far I have listened to around half of it.

It's a very gentle and loving CU III, performed very often on small, intimate registrations. Of course, smaller-scale pieces are more successful than large ones, which can get a little pedestrian. The organ, a modern marcussen, isn't a Schnitger or a Trost but still doesn't sound too bad or neo-baroque.

He does manage to build up a sense of nervous energy at the end that is quite nice, actually.

This might be the polar opposite of Jeremy Joseph's Cu III, which is hyper-masculine, jealous, and brooding - a bit of an old testament God.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Ou5Dlv-6L._SL1500_.jpg) even the cover looks quite ominous!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 11, 2019, 08:42:39 PM
Either that shot's been Photoshoped to death, someone was silly enough to paint those pipes or it's a very, very peculiar alloy they're made of.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 11, 2019, 09:02:47 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 11, 2019, 08:42:39 PM
Either that shot's been Photoshoped to death, someone was silly enough to paint those pipes or it's a very, very peculiar alloy they're made of.

The Silbermann? I think it's just the old darkened tin facade pipes (Silbermann consistently made facades out of pure tin).

(https://www.vanwageningen.net/i/upload/2016/06/08/20160608155421-27531843-me.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 11, 2019, 09:09:30 PM
I've been listening and looking at them for decades but for some reason never noticed the dark coloration.
Now that I think about it most of them are dark but not so close to black in that previous shot.
I wonder if using pure tin is part of their unique sound?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 11, 2019, 09:37:34 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 11, 2019, 05:01:33 PM
Of course, smaller-scale pieces are more successful than large ones, which can get a little pedestrian.



One you may like to listen to is Damiani Pereti and Ekhardt Kuper, who use a c19 organ for the pedaliter chorales and a harpsichord for the manualiter music. The harpsichord music comes across well.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 11, 2019, 10:57:48 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 11, 2019, 09:09:30 PM
I've been listening and looking at them for decades but for some reason never noticed the dark coloration.
Now that I think about it most of them are dark but not so close to black in that previous shot.
I wonder if using pure tin is part of their unique sound?

Well, facade pipes in a lot of organs of the time were made in pure tin for prestige reasons - they take a good polish and are a good thing for the church/city to brag about because how much they cost. E.g. a lot of Schnitger organs have facade pipes of pure tin, although most of them were handed over in WWI for war supplies (meanwhile, the inner pipes were usually lead or contained a low amount of tin). Silbermann came from an 18th century French tradition that used a lot of tin, so he naturally did that too.
Of course subsequent voicing will have a bigger impact on the sound, but (as I understand it - I could be spouting nonsense) since the pipe body damps the vibration of the air column in the pipe (which produces the sound), the material will have an effect on the sound. Even the crystal structure of the metal (dependent on the conditions in which the metal cools) has an effect, which is why builders like Ahrend, Flentrop or Fritts now go great lengths to cast their organ metal on sand just like Arp Schnitger did.

A famous essay by Fisk on pipe metal, although I don't know how up to date it is in light of recent developments: https://www.albany.edu/piporg-l/pipemet.html
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 11, 2019, 11:32:36 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 11, 2019, 10:57:48 PM
Well, facade pipes in a lot of organs of the time were made in pure tin for prestige reasons - they take a good polish and are a good thing for the church/city to brag about because how much they cost. E.g. a lot of Schnitger organs have facade pipes of pure tin, although most of them were handed over in WWI for war supplies (meanwhile, the inner pipes were usually lead or contained a low amount of tin). Silbermann came from an 18th century French tradition that used a lot of tin, so he naturally did that too.
Of course subsequent voicing will have a bigger impact on the sound, but (as I understand it - I could be spouting nonsense) since the pipe body damps the vibration of the air column in the pipe (which produces the sound), the material will have an effect on the sound. Even the crystal structure of the metal (dependent on the conditions in which the metal cools) has an effect, which is why builders like Ahrend, Flentrop or Fritts now go great lengths to cast their organ metal on sand just like Arp Schnitger did.

A famous essay by Fisk on pipe metal, although I don't know how up to date it is in light of recent developments: https://www.albany.edu/piporg-l/pipemet.html

This opens Pandora's Box. Do today's organ builders keep their formulations to themselves or is a body of available materials research in the public domain? I detect a tone from many Rieger instruments I can only describe as 'golden' and only from the metal ranks. Granted there are so many other variables I know nothing about.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 11, 2019, 11:45:47 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 11, 2019, 11:32:36 PM
This opens Pandora's Box. Do today's organ builders keep their formulations to themselves or is a body of available materials research in the public domain? I detect a tone from many Rieger instruments I can only describe as 'golden' and only from the metal ranks. Granted there are so many other variables I know nothing about.

I guess it depends, I think a lot of this knowledge is empirical and thus in-house. That's also why it got lost so quickly throughout the centuries. I know when Flentrop was commissioned to reconstruct the organ in Katharinenkirche Hamburg, one of the requirements on the contract was that they cast their pipes on sand. They had to figure it out details (e.g. what type of sand, how compact the sand had to be, casting speed, addition of oil, alloy etc.) themselves, despite a lot of work from "academic" sources such as GoArt to refer to.

Again, voicing matters much more than these, although as dry historians we do like to get things right down to every detail :)

Meanwhile, companies like Rieger, which focus on building organs in a "modern style" (Much less interesting, imho) without as much reference to historical models unlike Flentrop or Ahrend probably just do what they like.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 12:06:38 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 11, 2019, 11:45:47 PM
I guess it depends, I think a lot of this knowledge is empirical and thus in-house. That's also why it got lost so quickly throughout the centuries. I know when Flentrop was commissioned to reconstruct the organ in Katharinenkirche Hamburg, one of the requirements on the contract was that they cast their pipes on sand. They had to figure it out details (e.g. what type of sand, how compact the sand had to be, casting speed, addition of oil, alloy etc.) themselves, despite a lot of work from "academic" sources such as GoArt to refer to.

Again, voicing matters much more than these, although as dry historians we do like to get things right down to every detail :)

Meanwhile, companies like Rieger, which focus on building organs in a "modern style" (Much less interesting, imho) without as much reference to historical models unlike Flentrop or Ahrend probably just do what they like.
My problem I suppose is I like what they do. Especially the instrument at Scot's Church, Melbourne. Somehow, in a less than perfect acoustic, they've built an instrument that has me spellbound though with the qualification have to sit directly oposite it, not in the main body of the church.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajofs4waeL0
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DaveF on December 12, 2019, 01:07:38 AM
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 05, 2019, 11:04:23 AM
Pieter Van Dijk has so far released 5 discs of Bach Organ works. Has anybody listened?

He also turns up, briefly but enjoyably, in the Hänssler complete edition: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7972524--bach-transcriptions-concerti-trios (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7972524--bach-transcriptions-concerti-trios)  This one costs a bit less than €25 ??? per disc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 12, 2019, 02:48:31 AM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 12:06:38 AM
My problem I suppose is I like what they do. Especially the instrument at Scot's Church, Melbourne. Somehow, in a less than perfect acoustic, they've built an instrument that has me spellbound though with the qualification have to sit directly oposite it, not in the main body of the church.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajofs4waeL0

Aargh, all that carpet!

We all have our "type" - especially with organs :)
Ever get to play on it?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 01:31:07 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 12, 2019, 02:48:31 AM
Aargh, all that carpet!

We all have our "type" - especially with organs :)
Ever get to play on it?
Won't bore you with my reasons for abandoning organ studies in my mid-teens. Suffice it to say they were very traumatic, so traumatic I've been an enemy of the Roman Church ever since. The closest I've come to playing an instrument since was to sample stops on that Rieger during it's final days of installation.
And yes, the carpet I suspect is one reason for the damped acoustic in that church. No point speaking to the church elders. They fought against the installation of the new Rieger until one generous donor came up with 90% of the $. They struggle to restrict the number of organ recitals with the excuse they're secular events.
Sad, as renowned organists from all over the planet want to travel to Australia just to sample it's attributes.

But hey, what can we expect from a bunch of fundamentalist Presbyterians who refused to join the Uniting Church? Enough, I'm getting into church politics, a very dirty game in Melbourne.

I do like your forum name. All glowing arms in the dark?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 12, 2019, 02:04:41 PM
I have the box set. I thought that his performance was average. That's why I asked about his new recordings.

Quote from: DaveF on December 12, 2019, 01:07:38 AM
He also turns up, briefly but enjoyably, in the Hänssler complete edition: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7972524--bach-transcriptions-concerti-trios (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7972524--bach-transcriptions-concerti-trios)  This one costs a bit less than €25 ??? per disc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 12, 2019, 02:59:45 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 01:31:07 PM
I do like your forum name. All glowing arms in the dark?

Two tentacles on the pedal, three for the manuals, one for turning pages, one for pulling stops (no thumb pistons: mechanical stop action only!), and one for prodding out-of-tune choristers, distracted stop assistants, and for private communion in the organ loft ;) . Reger, Liszt and Reubke is a piece of cake now, but I do tend to get a bit tangled up by some trio sonatas.

Glow-in-the-dark, for poorly lit organ lofts.

Thanks to the imposing Rückpositiv case behind me shielding me from the Priest's fire-and-brimstone glare (especially when the voluntary is getting too long), the congregants still haven't noticed that I am, in fact, not really human.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 03:19:01 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 12, 2019, 02:59:45 PM
Two tentacles on the pedal, three for the manuals, one for turning pages, one for pulling stops (no thumb pistons: mechanical stop action only!), and one for prodding out-of-tune choristers, distracted stop assistants, and for private communion in the organ loft ;) . Reger, Liszt and Reubke is a piece of cake now, but I do tend to get a bit tangled up by some trio sonatas.

Glow-in-the-dark, for poorly lit organ lofts.

Thanks to the imposing Rückpositiv case behind me shielding me from the Priest's fire-and-brimstone glare, the congregants still haven't noticed that I am, in fact, not really human.
Funniest post I've read in a long time even though my imagination was running along similar lines and I've always thought of highly talented organists as another species than Homo sapiens.

Why not an extra tentacle to manually control the swell box? Come to think of it that could be hazardous.
Can't however understand a preference for mechanical stop action only. Luddite !
I do wish I'd had an extra tentacle available, not for prodding out-of-tune choristers (didn't have any), but for strangling tonally deaf congregations. Made my teeth hurt especially when they're 'singing along with' one of those turgid lutheran chorals Bach was forced(?) to tack onto the end of his otherwise wondrous works. Yes, I know many adore his chorals. I often find them worse than an anti-climax.

As to 'private communion in the loft', let's not go there.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 12, 2019, 04:44:25 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 03:19:01 PM
Funniest post I've read in a long time even though my imagination was running along similar lines and I've always thought of highly talented organists as another species than Homo sapiens.

Why not an extra tentacle to manually control the swell box? Come to think of it that could be hazardous.
Can't however understand a preference for mechanical stop action only. Luddite !
I do wish I'd had an extra tentacle available, not for prodding out-of-tune choristers (didn't have any), but for strangling tonally deaf congregations. Made my teeth hurt especially when they're 'singing along with' one of those turgid lutheran chorals Bach was forced(?) to tack onto the end of his otherwise wondrous works. Yes, I know many adore his chorals. I often find them worse than an anti-climax.

Sooner Vogelsang stops, Terz-zimbels, Trichterregals, zimbelsterns, short octave, hand-pumped bellows, and modified 1/5 comma meantone than a swellbox and combination action on my good Ahrendtrop-and-Boody organ, luddite I am! :)

Really, though - I think there's something wonderfully physical about pulling out a mechanical stop - especially if it's on a big, cranky old organ. For instance, the organ in the Amsterdam Nieuwe kerk has a spring-chest stop action, and it's so heavy that you will have to grab the knob and lean backwards on the bench to wrestle it out. For instance here: https://youtu.be/eQ6-fFwkMJc at 6:45

Of course, this gets old fairly fast and is especially annoying for stop-changes on the go, so there's a good reason why combination action was invented. But that's also where stop-assistants (often times reluctant members of the choir kidnapped for the job) come in handy.

An extreme example would be those videos of Daniel Roth at St. Suplice, with assistants to help with the swell, ventils, couplers, stops, page turns, coffee machine etc.

But again, did we really learn organ because we liked pipe organs, or because we didn't like playing with other people? (Or in my case, having people find out that I am in fact a bioluminescent squid?)

Speaking of "other people," my congregation thankfully sings quite in tune most of the time, but that may or may not be a result of my habit of snacking on the worst offenders when I get the munchies during particularly long and dreary sermons.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 04:55:59 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 12, 2019, 04:44:25 PM
An extreme example would be those videos of Daniel Roth at St. Suplice, with assistants to help with the swell, ventils, couplers, stops, page turns, coffee machine etc.
Strange you should mention Roth's assistants, they've fascinated me for a long time. Trying to read some of their facial expressions and reactions to a performance, especially by guest organists, is almost a hobby of mine.  The gentleman on the left below is always so dour it's impossible to read his reactions, if he has any.
The younger assistant on the right is himself no mean organist. I often wonder how they feel as the older ones are often 'failed organists' themselves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V2xhAdtodM

QuoteSpeaking of "other people," my congregation thankfully sings quite in tune most of the time, but that may or may not be a result of my habit of snacking on the worst offenders when I get the munchies during particularly long and dreary sermons.
Long and dreary sermons are one thing. Listening to blatent hypocracy from the pulpit delivered by those whose behind the scenes behavior can only be described as evil was too much for me.
We've wandered a long way from J S Bach on the organ so had best end this little dialogue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD9riZLMf90
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 12, 2019, 05:18:48 PM
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 12, 2019, 02:04:41 PM
I have the box set. I thought that his performance was average.

Exactly my sentiment too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 13, 2019, 08:12:15 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 12, 2019, 05:18:48 PM
Exactly my sentiment too.

I am looking forward to reading senior members' review on his new recordings.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DaveF on December 14, 2019, 12:29:09 AM
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 12, 2019, 02:04:41 PM
I have the [Hänssler] box set. I thought that his performance was average. That's why I asked about his new recordings.

Just had a re-listen: Yes, some of his performances sound under-rehearsed, with splashy, slightly uneven fingerwork in fast passages and less-than-smooth moves between manuals.  The Alkmaar organ, to my ears, isn't the most interesting or distinctive instrument either.  So not quite a highlight of the Hänssler set.  Undemanding, enjoyable music though.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 14, 2019, 08:39:07 AM
It is my understanding that majority of members here list Foccroulle, Alain 3rd, Koopman, and Kooiman plus for the best selection of organs.

Quote from: milk on December 04, 2019, 11:03:51 PM
I know this has all been discussed in this thread many times, but Foccroulle certainly has made an attempt to bop around to different interesting organs and I think I like the registrations he chooses are effective. The topic of organ music seems too complicated for me to understand well but I think he's another one that I've enjoyed. I'm sort of mentioning the stuff attuned to historical organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 14, 2019, 09:11:09 AM
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 14, 2019, 08:39:07 AM
It is my understanding that majority of members here list Foccroulle, Alain 3rd, Koopman, and Kooiman plus for the best selection of organs.

+ Weinberger and Stockmeier and Isoir and Vernet, maybe. Assuming "best" doesn't mean "baroque."
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 14, 2019, 09:48:45 AM
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 12, 2019, 02:04:41 PM
I have the box set. I thought that his performance was average. That's why I asked about his new recordings.

I've never heard his Bach, but I've heard quite a lot of his Sweelinck. I don't know about average, but what he does is self effacing, very natural sounding, without a great sense of the organist's personality imposing itself on the music.

Quote from: DaveF on December 14, 2019, 12:29:09 AM
The Alkmaar organ, to my ears, isn't the most interesting or distinctive instrument either.  .

I like it in its present form -- e.g. Marie Claire Alain III for some Leipzig Chorales. (Gosh she plays quite fast!)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on December 14, 2019, 03:33:27 PM
I know this has been discussed to the limit here...but...how about your top recordings on baroque organs? What are the must-haves (I might have them!)?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 14, 2019, 05:05:24 PM
Just FYI, Kei Koito's Bach vols 1-5 and other works are re-presented at her home page on YT. These works will generate varied/divided opinion on the thread.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lzk90cvThf2oG0tylGFZ_cQ1NjEttxUT4
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 14, 2019, 05:10:05 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 14, 2019, 09:11:09 AM
+ Weinberger and Stockmeier and Isoir and Vernet, maybe. Assuming "best" doesn't mean "baroque."
I like Stockmeier's performance as well as the organ sound. Though the recording is a little old, it doesn't bother me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 14, 2019, 09:34:09 PM
If I can draw attention for a moment to an aspect of Bach's organ composition, it's place in his cantatas.
There are some instances where the organist appears to be conducting the orchestra. Not always the case but I suggest in this introduction to Cantata BWV 29, 'Wir dir, Gott, war darken dir' Leo van Doeselaar is very much in charge. The Netherlands Bach Ensemble occupy a special place in my heart. They may not always play with perfect ensemble but on an emotional level they never fail. I have to admit though not even they can revive some of Bach's turgid Lutheran corals which I confess are a real problem for me, especially when tone deaf congregations join in as they did in Bach's day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwGWocp80-o
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on December 14, 2019, 11:08:34 PM
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 14, 2019, 08:39:07 AM
It is my understanding that majority of members here list Foccroulle, Alain 3rd, Koopman, and Kooiman plus for the best selection of organs.
It can be very interesting to follow someone like Foccroulle to all these interesting places. I'm sorry I kind of lost interest in him. Lately, I really like Kei Koito.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on December 14, 2019, 11:11:12 PM
How are the recordings of Bach on Italian baroque organs? Is there any disadvantage? 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 15, 2019, 03:33:58 AM
Quote from: milk on December 14, 2019, 11:11:12 PM
How are the recordings of Bach on Italian baroque organs?

Nothing is coming to mind. Astronio used modern organs, Leoonhardt didn't record any Bach in Italy as far as I know, Kimberly Marshall used an American organ for her Italian Bach cd, Alessio Corti used modern organs. I give up.

Quote from: milk on December 14, 2019, 11:11:12 PM
Is there any disadvantage?

This is what Glen Wilson says about Italian organs

QuoteThe way the ranks of the Italian church organ are built up weighs them heavily to the treble. There are no mixtures to balance the bass (although smaller registers break back when their pipes become too small). Large organs even sometimes have additional ranks of principal pipes in the discant. This shows, to my mind, that their main function was the harmonization of choral melodies (falso bordone). Recordings, as well as my own experiences as performer and listener, confirm that lower contrapuntal voices come through poorly. This, however, is a general problem with all big organs, as noted by Arnold Schlick in his Spiegel as early as 1511, which the Germans tried to solve by adding independent pedal divisions.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on December 15, 2019, 04:51:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 15, 2019, 03:33:58 AM
Nothing is coming to mind. Astronio used modern organs, Leoonhardt didn't record any Bach in Italy as far as I know, Kimberly Marshall used an American organ for her Italian Bach cd, Alessio Corti used modern organs. I give up.

This is what Glen Wilson says about Italian organs
Thanks for always being on the ball with these kinds of questions. Very interesting. Italian baroque organ music doesn't have much in the way of bass counterpoint - as far as I'm familiar with it. Makes sense. On the other hand, there must be a program out there that fits an Italian instrument. But not Bach's "big" music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 15, 2019, 05:23:30 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 15, 2019, 03:33:58 AM
Nothing is coming to mind. Astronio used modern organs, Leoonhardt didn't record any Bach in Italy as far as I know, Kimberly Marshall used an American organ for her Italian Bach cd, Alessio Corti used modern organs. I give up.

This is what Glen Wilson says about Italian organs

The main problem with Italian Baroque organs is that they often do not have pedals, or when they do, they are unwieldy pedals coupled to the manuals just for holding down pedal points.

Here's a picture of the 16th century Malamini organ in St. Petronio, Bologna - a large organ by Italian standards. Notice how it has only one manual and a pitifully small 1.5-octave pedal board? Italian organs more or less remained like this up to Bach's time, Mattheson even made fun of the organs in St. Mark's Venice for being so small and primitive compared to German organs.

(http://www.liuwetamminga.it/foto/sanpetronio/tastiera_malamini.jpg)

Temperament-wise, Italian organs were often tuned in meantone all the way up to the late 19th century! So not good for Bach either.
Try playing the "Wedge" prelude and fugue on this!

Compared to the much better endowed Trost organ at Waltershausen, which Bach may or may not have played on (itself a rather unwieldy beast because of its heavy action and very wide pedalboard)

(https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0d/73/4f/aa/waltershausen-stadkirche.jpg)

I think there are Italians organs later in the 18th century or in the 19th century that had multiple manuals and more advanced pedalboards, I think there's even a good recording of BWV 552 on one of them. But I'll have to dig it out.

For now, we will have to settle for Balint Karosi playing Bach on a recent Italian-inspired organ by Fisk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYaYep6GvMo&t=718s

There's also Bach in Montecassino by Luca Guglielmi, but I think it's not so interesting of a performance.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51T76HR1RuL._SX355_.jpg)

Edit: the recording I was referring to is this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1VPSajsi18

Edit: Lots of Bach played on mostly 19th century Italian organs on this channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfVRxMQU6bjG7f2RFVk2ddA/videos
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 15, 2019, 08:20:57 AM
Maybe some of the (restored) organs of Johann Konrad Wörle (or Werle) AKA Giovanni Conrado Verlé (1701-1777) are more or less suitable for Bach. He came from Tirol and perhaps brought some Southern German influences into Italy. He eventually ended up in Rome and was quite famous as an organ builder.

But this is just a wild guess.

If there is any label who might have some 'Italian' Bach discs in the catalogue, I'd say it would be Tactus.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 19, 2019, 09:47:21 AM
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 13, 2019, 08:12:15 AM
I am looking forward to reading senior members' review on his new recordings.

It's a first class performance of the Leipzig Chorales on a first class organ, with first class sound. First class. Top tier. Top organ totty, hotty pototty.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on December 19, 2019, 07:53:37 PM
Has Simone Stella recorded any Bach?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 20, 2019, 01:40:45 AM
Quote from: JBS on December 19, 2019, 07:53:37 PM
Has Simone Stella recorded any Bach?

Yes, but I do not find him that convincing in Bach. Can't speak for others. Presto has clips to listen to.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8046434--js-bach-toccata-and-fugue-other-works

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8174105--j-s-bach-organ-works
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 20, 2019, 01:42:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 19, 2019, 09:47:21 AM
It's a first class performance of the Leipzig Chorales on a first class organ, with first class sound. First class. Top tier. Top organ totty, hotty pototty.

I suppose you ordered their CDs by writing to their website. But how did you pay them?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 20, 2019, 01:50:41 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 20, 2019, 01:42:18 AM
I suppose you ordered their CDs by writing to their website. But how did you pay them?

I made a transfer using transfergo.com.  I sent them an email, they replied with their bank details.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 20, 2019, 03:44:31 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 19, 2019, 09:47:21 AM
It's a first class performance of the Leipzig Chorales on a first class organ, with first class sound. First class. Top tier. Top organ totty, hotty pototty.

Wow!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 20, 2019, 03:46:13 AM
Go to Topics: Simone Stella on YT, and you will find a lot of Bach works by Stella.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mzWdA2jQxcxaKPO2Z6OwDAyVIZrrAFx74




Quote from: JBS on December 19, 2019, 07:53:37 PM
Has Simone Stella recorded any Bach?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on December 20, 2019, 03:53:48 AM
Thank you, gentlemen. My question was motivated by the fact that I am listening to his Walther set this week.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 20, 2019, 06:26:09 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 20, 2019, 01:42:18 AM
I suppose you ordered their CDs by writing to their website. But how did you pay them?

Worth the effort for the BWV 653 alone!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 20, 2019, 06:30:18 AM
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 20, 2019, 03:46:13 AM
Go to Topics: Simone Stella on YT, and you will find a lot of Bach works by Stella.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mzWdA2jQxcxaKPO2Z6OwDAyVIZrrAFx74

Similar content as one of  the CDs I posted links to above.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 21, 2019, 12:44:36 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on June 01, 2019, 12:04:34 PM
(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0760623212067.jpg)

Well, I've listened to the whole thing and spoiler: It's very good - at least for me.

CU III is really a paradox to me, Bach's intense confession of faith that requires both intimacy and bravura, the ability to depict both joy (BWV 679) and deep despair (BWV 686). Few organists can do that - it's devilishly music to play anyways.

Sometimes I think the Dutch organists I like (Beekman, Wiersma etc.) can be a little too reserved in the music - thankfully Fischer combines this Dutch reticence with a bit of extraversion, to good effect.

He's certainly not shy about his organ; we hear the full organo pleno - everything from 16' up with manuals coupled and the 32's in the pedal - at least four times in the recording. It's orgasmic, his BWV 552 or 686. I think it's also worth noting his mesmerizing BWV 689 played on a single flute, his utterly reed-saturated BWV 682, or cheeky and very much galant BWV 667 (maybe a bit of comic relief from the otherwise sober Lutheran fare?).

Tempi are generally on the slow side - in a good way. There's that sense of spiritual patience that Wiersma has in most of his recordings, but oddly not so much in his own CU III. The slow tempi allow for so much more tension and ecstasy in the music.

Maybe my one only complaint is a sense that compared to a lot of other CU IIIs, some smaller chorales can lack a bit of intimacy. Fischer's God is very much almighty, distant, forbidding, and unknowable. I think I would compare it to Wolfram Syre's Tunder recording.

Instead of listing stops used in the different tracks, the booklet has a chart that graphically depicts the registrations used. Pretty cool, he also manages to use every single stop in the organ in the recording. Even old-fashioned stops in Bach's time like Zinckes and pedal cimbels have a place!
(Although as another complaint, a certain note on the pedal cimbel - I think it's the one for the high D - seems to be voiced differently and screechily sticks out like a sore thumb in BWV 686. It doesn't bother me, but I do wonder if that is caused by organistic malfunction on the day of the recording - a company like Flentrop could not have not caught that sort of mistake while voicing!)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 04, 2020, 06:09:38 PM
Kei Koito talks about her album and her choice of organ. It is very brief though.
The video is blocked in the U.S.A., so I watched it via browser with VNP.

https://youtu.be/AhuHRr4mfRs
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 04, 2020, 06:14:27 PM
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 14, 2019, 08:39:07 AM
It is my understanding that majority of members here list Foccroulle, Alain 3rd, Koopman, and Kooiman plus for the best selection of organs.


Quote from: Mandryka on December 14, 2019, 09:11:09 AM
+ Weinberger and Stockmeier and Isoir and Vernet, maybe. Assuming "best" doesn't mean "baroque."

I forgot about Kei Koito. It seems that a majority of members here praise her selection of organs, if not her performance.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on January 07, 2020, 01:18:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 19, 2019, 09:47:21 AM
It's a first class performance of the Leipzig Chorales on a first class organ, with first class sound. First class. Top tier. Top organ totty, hotty pototty.

wait, which one is this?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 07, 2020, 01:24:18 AM
Quote from: milk on January 07, 2020, 01:18:32 AM
wait, which one is this?

Pieter van Dijk at Alkmaar.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 07, 2020, 12:30:12 PM
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Beekman-B-R05-2a%5BLBCD-2CD%5D.jpg)

Tremendous mystical performance of BWV 528 here I'm going to have to check out what he does with the other sonatas  now!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 08, 2020, 10:53:04 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 07, 2020, 12:30:12 PM
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Beekman-B-R05-2a%5BLBCD-2CD%5D.jpg)

Tremendous mystical performance of BWV 528 here I'm going to have to check out what he does with the other sonatas  now!

I am listening the recordings on YT. His execution and the organs sound very good while the playing is a little slow in general.
I found a recording below by Doeselaar on YT. Is this the album you praised a few years ago?
Can you provide any info about this album?
He sounds great.

https://youtu.be/nFm7u_9YReE
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 08, 2020, 11:04:54 AM
Another album by LVD. Is this a new issue and/or new recording?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 08, 2020, 12:28:12 PM
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on January 08, 2020, 10:53:04 AM
I am listening the recordings on YT. His execution and the organs sound very good while the playing is a little slow in general.
I found a recording below by Doeselaar on YT. Is this the album you praised a few years ago?
Can you provide any info about this album?
He sounds great.

https://youtu.be/nFm7u_9YReE

I've got that recording, it's a long long time since I heard it. It's this

(https://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/img_cd_sz/_w150/cd_03356.jpg)


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doeselaar-Hagerbeer-Schnitger-Laurens-Alkmaar/dp/B009VLH2EG/ref=sr_1_18?keywords=doeselaar+cd&qid=1578518874&sr=8-18


Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on January 08, 2020, 11:04:54 AM
Another album by LVD. Is this a new issue and/or new recording?

This is new last year. I've never heard anything by Erwin Wiersinga, he has a huge discography, of music I'm not much interested in.  Here's what the new CD is

chnitger-organ
"Wir danken dir, Gott, wir danken dir"
Sinfonia from Cantata BWV 29 3'55
Leo van Doeselaar

Concerto A minor BWV 1065 10'24
for 4 harpsichords and strings
after Antonio Vivaldi, (1678-1741)
(Allegro) 4'22
Largo 2'02
Allegro 3'59
Erwin Wiersinga

Le Picard-organ
Ciaccona 14'26
from Partita Nr. 2 D minor
for Violin Solo BWV 1004
Leo van Doeselaar

Schnitger-organ
Toccata in D BWV 912 11'45
Presto – Allegro – Adagio – Presto – Allegro
Leo van Doeselaar

Le Picard-organ
Contrapunctus I 3'34
Contrapunctus V 3'54
Contrapunctus IX a 4 3'20
from 'Die Kunst der Fuge' BWV 1080
Erwin Wiersinga

Italian Concerto F major BWV 971 14'41
without tempo designation 4'33
Andante 5'19
Presto 4'47
Erwin Wiersinga

Schnitger-organ
"Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott" 7'38
Chorus from Cantata BWV 80
Canto fermo in canone (soprano e basso)
Arranged for 4 hands and 2 feet

Leo van Doeselaar and Erwin Wiersinga
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on January 08, 2020, 12:39:24 PM
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on January 08, 2020, 10:53:04 AM
I am listening the recordings on YT. His execution and the organs sound very good while the playing is a little slow in general.


What impressed me in the 528 was how somehow he sometimes make one voice penetrate another like stars penetrating the darkness of the night sky. Shooting stars.

It was probably just something I ate last night . . .
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 08, 2020, 07:00:30 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 08, 2020, 12:39:24 PM
What impressed me in the 528 was how somehow he sometimes make one voice penetrate another like stars penetrating the darkness of the night sky. Shooting stars.

It was probably just something I ate last night . . .

I suspect you ate portobello mushroom previous night.
I have been listening his Bach works on YT for a few years, and all the 9 volumes sound good. I will check bwv 528.
I am grateful to the guy who posted this oop recordings on YT. He uploaded other wonderful recordings  as well.
Also thank you for the info on Doeselaar's recordings. Probably I will buy the both.

Ps. Koopman 6cd set arrived, and I will listen them next week. This week I am busy listening Albeniz works orchestrated by several people.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 18, 2020, 04:12:01 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 08, 2020, 12:39:24 PM
What impressed me in the 528 was how somehow he sometimes make one voice penetrate another like stars penetrating the darkness of the night sky. Shooting stars.

It was probably just something I ate last night . . .

Sometimes I blabber a bit with organ lovers before or after a Martini concert. If we talk about favourite recordings, I tend to a.o. mention Beekman. I mostly get the answer: boring. Well recorded, but... boring. Someone even gave the entire set away almost for free, about 5 years ago. Well, tastes differ.
I myself do realize there are more 'exciting' Bach organists, but actually your description of BWV 528 is very to the 'Beekman' point IMHO: the man has a great feeling for choosing the right stops. To me, his entire OOP integral can be summarized with: beautiful instruments, very well recorded, played by someone who connects to my taste in sound and expression, and who plays in a modest and very sublte HIP-influenced way: not much ado, no fuzzy/legato playing, apt phrasing and a serenity and strength that very much appeals to me. Some of the grand free works are a played a bit stiff, but overall I still rate this integral very high.
A few other examples of my 'cherished' Beekman style: BWV 682 ("Vater unser...") and BWV 688 ("Jesus Christus, unser Heiland"), but also BWV 665 (same choral): the latter played with an almost hidden tension, but it works amazingly well on that beautiful Schnitger/Timpe organ of the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen. It grabs me by the throat, almost literally.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on February 06, 2020, 04:39:32 PM
Crosspost from WAYLT2
NP
[asin]B01KW33O84[/asin]
BVW numbers 565, 538, 590, 545, 572, 542, 582
Organ is a modern one (new enough that the tuning is by the organ maker, Andrea Zeni) in the church of Santa Maria Assunta, Marostica. Recording is from 2016. Sounds to me like his performance here is on par with his work on Brilliant.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Karl Henning on February 06, 2020, 07:02:46 PM
Quote from: JBS on February 06, 2020, 04:39:32 PM
Crosspost from WAYLT2
NP
[asin]B01KW33O84[/asin]
BVW numbers 565, 538, 590, 545, 572, 542, 582
Organ is a modern one (new enough that the tuning is by the organ maker, Andrea Zeni) in the church of Santa Maria Assunta, Marostica. Recording is from 2016. Sounds to me like his performance here is on par with his work on Brilliant.


Nice.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Traverso on February 14, 2020, 08:35:28 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 18, 2020, 04:12:01 AM
Sometimes I blabber a bit with organ lovers before or after a Martini concert. If we talk about favourite recordings, I tend to a.o. mention Beekman. I mostly get the answer: boring. Well recorded, but... boring. Someone even gave the entire set away almost for free, about 5 years ago. Well, tastes differ.
I myself do realize there are more 'exciting' Bach organists, but actually your description of BWV 528 is very to the 'Beekman' point IMHO: the man has a great feeling for choosing the right stops. To me, his entire OOP integral can be summarized with: beautiful instruments, very well recorded, played by someone who connects to my taste in sound and expression, and who plays in a modest and very sublte HIP-influenced way: not much ado, no fuzzy/legato playing, apt phrasing and a serenity and strength that very much appeals to me. Some of the grand free works are a played a bit stiff, but overall I still rate this integral very high.
A few other examples of my 'cherished' Beekman style: BWV 682 ("Vater unser...") and BWV 688 ("Jesus Christus, unser Heiland"), but also BWV 665 (same choral): the latter played with an almost hidden tension, but it works amazingly well on that beautiful Schnitger/Timpe organ of the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen. It grabs me by the throat, almost literally.

I try to visualize that. :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 14, 2020, 10:01:18 AM
Quote from: Traverso on February 14, 2020, 08:35:28 AM
I try to visualize that. :D

Yeah, I just felt I had to throw in that Dutch expression.
You're the first to react, lol.
I wonder why, he said 'knowingly'.

In a way, I wasn't even kidding.
Sometimes music almost leaves me breathless... and then, when I come to my senses and start breathing again, it feels GREAT. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 14, 2020, 11:20:57 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 14, 2020, 10:01:18 AM
Yeah, I just felt I had to throw in that Dutch expression.
You're the first to react, lol.
I wonder why, he said 'knowingly'.


But it's a perfectly standard English expression, grabbed me by the neck, grabbed me by the throat. That's why there was no reaction!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 14, 2020, 11:52:54 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 14, 2020, 11:20:57 AM
But it's a perfectly standard English expression, grabbed me by the neck, grabbed me by the throat. That's why there was no reaction!

Really?

:laugh:

I do remember when writing it down, I thought to myself "now come on, Marc... this is a perfect Dutch 'I took you by the nose' (meaning: I fooled you) mistake", but decided to post it anyway.

Well, thanks... because, thanks to you, mr. Mandryka, I am now monkeyproud of my unexpected hidden natural knowledge of the English language.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on February 14, 2020, 12:01:41 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 14, 2020, 11:52:54 AM
Really?

:laugh:

I do remember when writing it down, I thought to myself "now come on, Marc... this is a perfect Dutch 'I took you by the nose' (meaning: I fooled you) mistake", but decided to post it anyway.

Well, thanks... because, thanks to you, mr. Mandryka, I am now monkeyproud of my unexpected hidden natural knowledge of the English language.

The English version of that is "lead you around by the nose". ;D

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 14, 2020, 12:13:13 PM
Quote from: JBS on February 14, 2020, 12:01:41 PM
The English version of that is "lead you around by the nose". ;D

Well, there you go. We have so much in common. Even the love for a German composer (or two... or even more...). ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on February 23, 2020, 07:48:50 AM
I've heard some older Kooiman CDs and really enjoyed them, the chances of finding more are slim. Some of it is covered in his last incomplete integrale on Aeolus, but this is an expensive set. My question is are the interpretations from his students worthwhile hearing/at a high level to make it worth it?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 23, 2020, 08:12:38 AM
Quote from: hvbias on February 23, 2020, 07:48:50 AM
I've heard some older Kooiman CDs and really enjoyed them, the chances of finding more are slim. Some of it is covered in his last incomplete integrale on Aeolus, but this is an expensive set. My question is are the interpretations from his students worthwhile hearing/at a high level to make it worth it?

Klapprott is I think the quintessential German-style craftsman musician. Bildungsbuergertum -- to use the word Jens taught me.

There was this discussion with me and Harry at the end of last year, I'm afraid it won't be much help!

Quote from: Mandryka on December 01, 2019, 08:03:59 AM
(https://www.hraudio.net/covers2/3/8193rev2.jpg)


Attention everybody, a very fine orgelbuchlein here and easily passed over. Good instrument (Arlesheim) well recorded, serious interpretation, beautifully conceived registrations. Bernhard Klapprott, maybe I should say, the great Bernhard Klapprott, on the organ. CDs 18 and 19 of the big Aeolus box.

The other things ain't half bad either - trio sonata etc, concerto etc.

Quote from: "Harry" on December 01, 2019, 10:30:26 AM
I have that box, obviously for the playing by Ewald, first 8 CD'S if memory serves me correct, but I am not that positive about Klapprott. Good instrument, yes, well recorded, yes, serious, well yes, but not always, good registrations, also yes, but I simply miss the last ounce of excellence which would convince me, that it is truly a magnificent interpretation.
The other things ain't half bad either, puzzles me excessively!

Quote from: Mandryka on December 01, 2019, 09:24:10 PM
Ain't half bad = rather good. I'm not sure if it's just a British way of speaking, or whether Americans use it too.

(Thanks for listening carefully to it, by the way!)

If you send me a PM I'll let you have some of Kooiman's out of print Bach recordings.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on February 23, 2020, 09:21:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 23, 2020, 08:12:38 AM
Klapprott is I think the quintessential German-style craftsman musician. Bildungsbuergertum -- to use the word Jens taught me.

There was this discussion with me and Harry at the end of last year, I'm afraid it won't be much help!

If you send me a PM I'll let you have some of Kooiman's out of print Bach recordings.

Very useful, and I'll send you a PM, thank you. I don't really know how to use this forum's search engine for in thread searches.

Expanding my borders beyond the sets I've owned for a while is really elevating my understanding of JS Bach's organ music. I'm hearing more than just the obvious differences in registrations, ornaments, rubato, tempi, etc. It's really making me love this music more than I already did, which was already quite a bit.

This morning I heard Leonhardt playing BWV 668, so heavenly it's almost enough to tip over an agnostic.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 25, 2020, 11:55:12 PM
Quote from: hvbias on February 23, 2020, 09:21:33 AM
[...]
This morning I heard Leonhardt playing BWV 668, so heavenly it's almost enough to tip over an agnostic.

That's probably the reason why I, being someone who left the church as a 'certified' non-believer, keep listening to this stuff. ;)

(Not really true though. It's just great music to my ears. A fine performance of BWV 668 gives me a feeling of serene comfort and peace, no matter what my beliefs are or were)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 26, 2020, 01:04:21 AM
Quote from: hvbias on February 23, 2020, 09:21:33 AM

This morning I heard Leonhardt playing BWV 668, so heavenly it's almost enough to tip over an agnostic.


STOP. NEVER LISTEN TO THAT AGAIN. IT'S THE OPIUM OF THE PEOPLE.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: vers la flamme on March 04, 2020, 05:05:31 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/716SQET0tbL._SS500_.jpg)

Hooked on this at the moment. Are there more good single discs of Walcha playing highlights of Bach's organ music? I am still a newcomer to this segment of his works and don't want to invest in the big box.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on March 04, 2020, 06:43:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 26, 2020, 01:04:21 AM

STOP. NEVER LISTEN TO THAT AGAIN. IT'S THE OPIUM OF THE PEOPLE.

A genuine laugh out loud from me  :laugh: I will send that Leonhardt disc to my friend who is a staunch atheist but gets dragged to church by his wife.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 04, 2020, 12:48:08 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 04, 2020, 05:05:31 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/716SQET0tbL._SS500_.jpg)

Hooked on this at the moment. Are there more good single discs of Walcha playing highlights of Bach's organ music? I am still a newcomer to this segment of his works and don't want to invest in the big box.

I'm sure there are, but this is an exceptional one

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51-PTg9nABL.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: vers la flamme on March 04, 2020, 02:17:50 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 04, 2020, 12:48:08 PM
I'm sure there are, but this is an exceptional one

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51-PTg9nABL.jpg)

I was looking at that earlier. Awesome. Thanks.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 05, 2020, 02:38:42 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 04, 2020, 02:17:50 PM
I was looking at that earlier. Awesome. Thanks.

Mind you, Walcha's stereo integral is almost a 'highlights' boxset in itself, because it's definitely not a complete output of Bach's organ works. So, if you stumble upon a reasonably priced issue... ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: HIPster on March 08, 2020, 07:06:31 AM
Thanks to Marc for posting these recommendations in the listening thread! 

Quote:


I'm a little bit 'behind' in my knowledge, because the last years I mainly bought some 'local' organ discs by internationally lesser known organists. And they're difficult to find on the internet.

But for the Orgelbüchlein, 'golden oldie' René Saorgin is still a 'must have', IMHO.

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Orgelbuchlein-Saorgin/dp/B00004RJRW/?tag=goodmusicguideco
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8056554--bach-j-s-chorale-preludes-i-bwv599-644-orgelbuchlein

For the Leipzig chorales, Bernard Foccroulle - if you haven't got his integral and/or are not interested in purchasing that boxset - is very much worthwhile:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7954300--j-s-bach-leipzig-chorales
https://www.amazon.com/Leipziger-Chorales-651-668-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0000A4G3V?tag=goodmusicguideco

Or Craig Humber:

https://www.amazon.com/Leipzig-Organ-Chorales-CRAIG-HUMBER/dp/B003B95B92/?tag=goodmusicguideco

Martin Souter, rather slow tempi, but the organ (Schnitger et al, Noordbroek, NL) is a ravishing beauty.

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Chorale-Preludes-651-661/dp/B000006F0C/?tag=goodmusicguideco
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-18-Chorale-Preludes-Vol/dp/B00N63JDMO/?tag=goodmusicguideco
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8048193--bach-18-chorale-preludes-vol-1
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8048194--bach-18-chorale-preludes-vol-2

For the Clavier-Übung III (AKA 'Organ Mass'), Edgar Krapp on the Berlin Classics label is still a great choice. It won't be easy to find those discs, though. The manualiter chorales are bundled on this issue:

https://www.amazon.com/Orgel-Werke-Organ-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0000DC17O/?tag=goodmusicguideco

A 'modern' choice would be Andreas Fischer on the reconstructed Schnitger organ of the Katharinenkirche, Hamburg, BRD.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Clavier-Übung/dp/B07NJV6LTP/?tag=goodmusicguideco
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8613402--j-s-bach-clavier-ubung-book-iii

I'm sure there are much more solid choices in this field. Maybe Premont and Mandryka have some good advices.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 08, 2020, 07:24:31 AM
Just a little reminder of my Bach organ recommendations in post 1 of this very thread.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 09, 2020, 04:06:08 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 08, 2020, 07:24:31 AM
Just a little reminder of my Bach organ recommendations in post 1 of this very thread.

;)

Don't you worry, dear Premont, it's probably my favourite post of GMG. 0:)

My 'quote' (from the WAYLT-thread) was only meant as a quick help to suggest some decent (imho) recordings of the Bach's best known organ chorale bundles... it's far from up-to-date. But what's 'up to date' anyway? Your post is over 12 years old and in fact still worthwhile, so it's still up to date.

If someone would have asked my personal favs, then it would be something like:
My fav Orgelbüchlein is Koopman (Coronata), but it's part of an OOP integral.
My fav Leipzig chorales are Beekman's, but they're part of an OOP integral.
My fav CU 3... can't tell. Maybe another Dutchman, cuz I'm a Dutch chauvinist pig organ music lover, maybe Wim van Beek or Piet Wiersma, but the first one isn't easy to get, and the 2nd one is OOP.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 09, 2020, 04:11:31 AM
Maybe someone who wants a quick, cheap and cheerful intro to some organ chorales could try this


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41RAQLs72rL.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 09, 2020, 04:18:47 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 09, 2020, 04:11:31 AM
Maybe someone who wants a quick, cheap and cheerful intro to some organ chorales could try this


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41RAQLs72rL.jpg)

Yep.
That's a good choice, too.

There's a lot of choice in this field.
If someone would be happy with decent performances (of the above mentioned 3 'books') on lovely organs: Margaret Philips' discs from her integral are (afaik) still available as single volumes (mostly 2-cd sets): buy Volume 1 to 3 and... you're ready, and probaby happy. Label: Regent.

https://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Phillips-M.htm
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 09, 2020, 07:22:14 AM
This I found stupendous. Not standard organ repertoire, granted, but v. good.
10/10 Review on ClassicsToday upcoming. (

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESguXubXQAA7JBn?format=jpg&name=small)
#morninglistening to superb!! #Bach #OrganWorks w/@ErwinWiersinga & #LeoVanDoeselaar on #mDG

: http://a-fwd.to/7GeMeNp

@BACH_JohannSeb
on the #Groningen #MartiniKerk's organs ♡♡♡

#classicalmusic #OrganMusic #classicalmusiccollection #BachFo... https://ift.tt/2IyhZtX (http://a-fwd.to/7GeMeNp)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 09, 2020, 08:29:13 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 09, 2020, 07:22:14 AM
This I found stupendous. Not standard organ repertoire, granted, but v. good.
10/10 Review on ClassicsToday upcoming. (

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESguXubXQAA7JBn?format=jpg&name=small)
#morninglistening to superb!! #Bach #OrganWorks w/@ErwinWiersinga & #LeoVanDoeselaar on #mDG

: http://a-fwd.to/7GeMeNp

@BACH_JohannSeb
on the #Groningen #MartiniKerk's organs ♡♡♡

#classicalmusic #OrganMusic #classicalmusiccollection #BachFo... https://ift.tt/2IyhZtX (http://a-fwd.to/7GeMeNp)

Are they playing duets together?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on March 09, 2020, 08:47:14 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 09, 2020, 07:22:14 AM
This I found stupendous. Not standard organ repertoire, granted, but v. good.
10/10 Review on ClassicsToday upcoming. (

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESguXubXQAA7JBn?format=jpg&name=small)
#morninglistening to superb!! #Bach #OrganWorks w/@ErwinWiersinga & #LeoVanDoeselaar on #mDG

: http://a-fwd.to/7GeMeNp

@BACH_JohannSeb
on the #Groningen #MartiniKerk's organs ♡♡♡

#classicalmusic #OrganMusic #classicalmusiccollection #BachFo... https://ift.tt/2IyhZtX (http://a-fwd.to/7GeMeNp)

Err, link leads to the Liepzig String Quartet Schubert cycle.  Also on MDG, and the city is relevant to Bach, of course.  But I don't think it's what you intended.  :P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 09, 2020, 10:13:04 AM
Quote from: JBS on March 09, 2020, 08:47:14 AM
Err, link leads to the Liepzig String Quartet Schubert cycle.  Also on MDG, and the city is relevant to Bach, of course.  But I don't think it's what you intended.  :P

Yikes! Thanks for letting me know. This is the link: http://a-fwd.to/4HPS25L (http://a-fwd.to/4HPS25L)

Quote from: Mandryka on March 09, 2020, 08:29:13 AM
Are they playing duets together?

In one case, yes: Namely in Sybolt de Jong's transcription for four hands and two feet of the chorus "Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott" from Cantata BWV 80.

Other than that, they are taking turns on the large Schnitger and the small Le Picard organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 09, 2020, 10:44:02 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 09, 2020, 10:13:04 AM
Yikes! Thanks for letting me know. This is the link: http://a-fwd.to/4HPS25L (http://a-fwd.to/4HPS25L)

In one case, yes: Namely in Sybolt de Jong's transcription for four hands and two feet of the chorus "Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott" from Cantata BWV 80.

Other than that, they are taking turns on the large Schnitger and the small Le Picard organ.

Yeah, I bought that one in the Martinikerk last summer. It's pure joy indeed. Mind you, the small Le Picard is a beauty, too. It was originally a 'Rückwerck' of a Northern French baroque organ.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/1f/ad/YyjD59GF_o.jpg)

Later that year, in September, Wiersinga and Van Doeselaar played the 'grande' part of the Clavier-Übung 3 together. One of the best live concert experiences I had in the last 10 years or so. Wiersinga in BWV 682, and Van Doeselaar in BWV 671 and BWV 686 were the highlights. Goosebumps even when remembering it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 09, 2020, 11:16:34 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 09, 2020, 10:44:02 AM
Yeah, I bought that one in the Martinikerk last summer. It's pure joy indeed. Mind you, the small Le Picard is a beauty, too. It was originally a 'Rückwerck' of a Northern French baroque organ.

Absolutely. You'll find much of that in the review, I hope.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 09, 2020, 01:07:23 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 09, 2020, 04:06:08 AM
;)

Don't you worry, dear Premont, it's probably my favourite post of GMG. 0:)

My 'quote' (from the WAYLT-thread) was only meant as a quick help to suggest some decent (imho) recordings of the Bach's best known organ chorale bundles... it's far from up-to-date. But what's 'up to date' anyway? Your post is over 12 years old and in fact still worthwhile, so it's still up to date.

If someone would have asked my personal favs, then it would be something like:
My fav Orgelbüchlein is Koopman (Coronata), but it's part of an OOP integral.
My fav Leipzig chorales are Beekman's, but they're part of an OOP integral.
My fav CU 3... can't tell. Maybe another Dutchman, cuz I'm a Dutch chauvinist pig organ music lover, maybe Wim van Beek or Piet Wiersma, but the first one isn't easy to get, and the 2nd one is OOP.

Our tastes are remarkably similar, so I do not worry at all. :)

To be honest I have promised Que an updated version of post 1 - this is really a hard job to realize
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on March 09, 2020, 01:20:34 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 04, 2020, 05:05:31 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/716SQET0tbL._SS500_.jpg)

Hooked on this at the moment. Are there more good single discs of Walcha playing highlights of Bach's organ music? I am still a newcomer to this segment of his works and don't want to invest in the big box.
There are several more single Walcha discs on DG and also a Duo, but there is probably some overlap with this "Originals" disc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on March 09, 2020, 01:59:57 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 09, 2020, 10:44:02 AM
Yeah, I bought that one in the Martinikerk last summer. It's pure joy indeed. Mind you, the small Le Picard is a beauty, too. It was originally a 'Rückwerck' of a Northern French baroque organ.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/1f/ad/YyjD59GF_o.jpg)

Later that year, in September, Wiersinga and Van Doeselaar played the 'grande' part of the Clavier-Übung 3 together. One of the best live concert experiences I had in the last 10 years or so. Wiersinga in BWV 682, and Van Doeselaar in BWV 671 and BWV 686 were the highlights. Goosebumps even when remembering it.

Just reading this fills me with jealousy, the last time we were in Holland my parents were more interesting in getting cute pictures of us in wood clogs than any organ pilgrimages :'(

I am thinking an organ holiday is in order to get my kids indoctrinated in Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 10, 2020, 05:54:49 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 09, 2020, 04:06:08 AM
;)

Don't you worry, dear Premont, it's probably my favourite post of GMG. 0:)

My 'quote' (from the WAYLT-thread) was only meant as a quick help to suggest some decent (imho) recordings of the Bach's best known organ chorale bundles... it's far from up-to-date. But what's 'up to date' anyway? Your post is over 12 years old and in fact still worthwhile, so it's still up to date.

If someone would have asked my personal favs, then it would be something like:
My fav Orgelbüchlein is Koopman (Coronata), but it's part of an OOP integral.
My fav Leipzig chorales are Beekman's, but they're part of an OOP integral.
My fav CU 3... can't tell. Maybe another Dutchman, cuz I'm a Dutch chauvinist pig organ music lover, maybe Wim van Beek or Piet Wiersma, but the first one isn't easy to get, and the 2nd one is OOP.

For me:
My favorite Orgelbüchlein would be Piet Wiersma's, spread all over his Bach in Groningen set. Haven't heard Koopman (do you mean Kooiman?).

Liepzig Chorales would also be Beekman (Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NpFOrSWZ58). And also Daniel Chorzempa.

I'm still bowled over by Andreas Fischer's CUIII - the other one I would recommend is Rübsam on Naxos, or possibly also Beekman.

I didn't really enjoy Piet Wiersma's CU III, it didn't feel as down-to-earth and gritty as his other recordings on smaller village organs. The Martinikerk organ, as wonderful as it is, is just a bit too perfect and suave for Wiersma.

A lot of Dutchmen for me, a non-Dutchman!

Can you tell me more about Margaret Philips? I have not heard much of her playing. Great organs, although all very frequently recorded ones.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 10, 2020, 06:15:46 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 10, 2020, 05:54:49 AM
For me:
My favorite Orgelbüchlein would be Piet Wiersma's, spread all over his Bach in Groningen set. Haven't heard Koopman (do you mean Kooiman?).

Liepzig Chorales would also be Beekman (Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NpFOrSWZ58). And also Daniel Chorzempa.

I'm still bowled over by Andreas Fischer's CUIII - the other one I would recommend is Rübsam on Naxos, or possibly also Beekman.

I didn't really enjoy Piet Wiersma's CU III, it didn't feel as down-to-earth and gritty as his other recordings on smaller village organs. The Martinikerk organ, as wonderful as it is, is just a bit too perfect and suave for Wiersma.

A lot of Dutchmen for me, a non-Dutchman!

Can you tell me more about Margaret Philips? I have not heard much of her playing. Great organs, although all very frequently recorded ones.

I meant Kooiman indeed.

I understand your point about Wiersma, but then, when I listen to f.i. BWV 682... well...
Summarized: it's just not easy to name favourites in a field where so many good musicians have excelled. Sometimes I forget to mention one, and sometimes good/bad listening memories can blur things, too.

I.c. Philips: I have 2 volumes of her (should check it out though, not 100% sure), mainly chorale-related works, and I would say: she's solid, with mostly swift tempi, without adding the 'bonuses' that can make interpretations special. Her choice of instruments is solid, too. Quite logical choices, but indeed no unknown gems.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 10, 2020, 06:39:05 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 10, 2020, 06:15:46 AM
I meant Kooiman indeed.

I understand your point about Wiersma, but then, when I listen to f.i. BWV 682... well...
Summarized: it's just not easy to name favourites in a field where so many good musicians have excelled. Sometimes I forget to mention one, and sometimes good/bad listening memories can blur things, too.

I.c. Philips: I have 2 volumes of her (should check it out though, not 100% sure), mainly chorale-related works, and I would say: she's solid, with mostly swift tempi, without adding the 'bonuses' that can make interpretations special. Her choice of instruments is solid, too. Quite logical choices, but indeed no unknown gems.

I think I have been spoiled by Fischer's playing of BWV 682, can't imagine it now without sesquialteras, fiery little North German reeds, plus the 16' dulcian growling away in the pedal. Not very "Authentic" though :)
... but I take back what I said about Wiersma. Undoubtedly more conventional and a little timid, but still very beautiful and sincere. With Wiersma, I always can tell that he gave everything to his playing, as rough or flawed as it can sometimes be.

Thanks for the Phillips opinion, I guess I won't really like the set then. A lot of fast Bach played on great organs out there already.

... but speaking of "fast Bach played on great organs" I forgot to mention Ton Koopman for Leipzig Chorales. What a great ride!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 10, 2020, 10:18:15 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 10, 2020, 06:39:05 AM
I think I have been spoiled by Fischer's playing of BWV 682, can't imagine it now without sesquialteras, fiery little North German reeds, plus the 16' dulcian growling away in the pedal. Not very "Authentic" though :)
... but I take back what I said about Wiersma. Undoubtedly more conventional and a little timid, but still very beautiful and sincere. With Wiersma, I always can tell that he gave everything to his playing, as rough or flawed as it can sometimes be.

Thanks for the Phillips opinion, I guess I won't really like the set then. A lot of fast Bach played on great organs out there already.

... but speaking of "fast Bach played on great organs" I forgot to mention Ton Koopman for Leipzig Chorales. What a great ride!

I.c. registration: I'm not informed enough about that chapter... I'm already happy when I can more or less hear whether it's a principal, flute or reed stop. And about 'authentic' registration or not: is Ewald Kooiman's BWV 682 in Weingarten 'authentic'? I just could not tell. I do know that I really LOVE Bram Beekman's registration... in general, and in BWV 682 in particular.
Schnitger-like organs have different stops to offer than Silbermanns, for instance. So I guess that Bach had to find different ways to registrate too, when playing somewhere in Thüringen or in Hamburg, where, as the story goes, he played around half an hour variations on "An Wasserflüßen Babylon". Too bad that Reincken did not ask the local HiFi specialist to make a recording of that!

I.c. Koopman: in most cases, I find his tempo choices in the chorales more convincing than in the free works. Less rushed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 10, 2020, 10:26:09 AM
Talking about rushing: rushing through Margaret Phillips' integral for Regent Records. To get the idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcGNDnw6nM4

https://www.youtube.com/v/AcGNDnw6nM4
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 10, 2020, 10:44:20 AM
And, for some more fun: Domitila Ballesteros playing BWV 543 on my personal favourite instrument (well, one of my favourites): the Schnitger et al of Noordbroek, NL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRRD-EwTULY

https://www.youtube.com/v/WRRD-EwTULY
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 10, 2020, 04:05:05 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 10, 2020, 10:44:20 AM
And, for some more fun: Domitila Ballesteros playing BWV 543 on my personal favourite instrument (well, one of my favourites): the Schnitger et al of Noordbroek, NL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRRD-EwTULY

https://www.youtube.com/v/WRRD-EwTULY

Since you're from that area, how do you think the Uithuizen Schnitger compares to the one in Noordbroek - and which one do you like more?

"Authentic" was a bit tongue-in-cheek, Bach hadn't been in North Germany for quite a while when he wrote CU III, so it was probably conceived for Trost/Hildebrandt/Silbermann/Scheibe type organs rather than a 17th century city organ in Hamburg (or Groningen). I would guess the registration Fischer used would be considered quite old-fashioned (belonging to the generation of late Weckmann or Buxtehude) by 1739, when reeds and sesquialteras became less popular than milder and more colorful stops like violon-bass, cornets and Flöte-travers, and pulling lots of stops of the same pitch became ok. Basically, going from a late renaissance broken consort to a high baroque court ensemble.

Kooiman's CU III in Weingarten I have to dig out - heard it a long time ago and I remember liking it. It's one of the few Coronata Kooiman recordings I have. Are you familiar with his even earlier integrale, the one that probably never made it off LP?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 10, 2020, 08:56:35 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 10, 2020, 04:05:05 PM
Since you're from that area, how do you think the Uithuizen Schnitger compares to the one in Noordbroek - and which one do you like more?

"Authentic" was a bit tongue-in-cheek, Bach hadn't been in North Germany for quite a while when he wrote CU III, so it was probably conceived for Trost/Hildebrandt/Silbermann/Scheibe type organs rather than a 17th century city organ in Hamburg (or Groningen). I would guess the registration Fischer used would be considered quite old-fashioned (belonging to the generation of late Weckmann or Buxtehude) by 1739, when reeds and sesquialteras became less popular than milder and more colorful stops like violon-bass, cornets and Flöte-travers, and pulling lots of stops of the same pitch became ok. Basically, going from a late renaissance broken consort to a high baroque court ensemble.

Kooiman's CU III in Weingarten I have to dig out - heard it a long time ago and I remember liking it. It's one of the few Coronata Kooiman recordings I have. Are you familiar with his even earlier integrale, the one that probably never made it off LP?

In short: I prefer Noordbroek, it just has got a more 'royal' sound (dunno how else to describe it). But when I went to Uithuizen last summer, it struck me as sounding more beautiful than I remembered. Problem is though, that Noordbroek 'delivers' at least 5 concerts each summer, and Uithuizen is not used very often for either concerts or recordings. Alongside Noordbroek, another 'medium' Schnitger organ that I dearly love is the one in Norden, even though I only heard it on record.

Kooiman's CU 3 is very much to my likings, but I'm not entirely pleased with the recording/sound quality. The Gabler instrument sounds much more harsh compared to other recordings that I have. I.c. the younger Kooiman: I don't have the vinyl recordings, but I do have (copy from library) one disc from the early 1980s, where he also plays Bach. I would say that his playing style is much more stiff then. So, IMHO, he's improving through the years. Maybe Premont knows more about Kooiman's vinyl integral... he already visited concerts of Bruckner in the Linzer Dom, so he's been around for quite a long time already. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on March 11, 2020, 04:23:01 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 10, 2020, 04:05:05 PM

"Authentic" was a bit tongue-in-cheek, Bach hadn't been in North Germany for quite a while when he wrote CU III, so it was probably conceived for Trost/Hildebrandt/Silbermann/Scheibe type organs rather than a 17th century city organ in Hamburg (or Groningen).

This reminded me of my own favourite CÜ-III:

[asin]B000028BTI[/asin]

Quote from: Que on November 05, 2016, 12:38:29 AM
I have the whole set and it is one if my best Bach recordings, recommended by premont.
I like the organ, which is indeed different from the usual high powered ones. An acquired taste, but I love the subtle colours and strong character.
No lack of any musical qualities of the instrument in my book, and the performances by Felix Friedrich are superbly suited to it: subtle, airy, articulate, technically highly accomplished. The way I like to imagine Bach would have played the instrument, which he knew very well.

Q

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 11, 2020, 07:39:04 AM
Quote from: Que on March 11, 2020, 04:23:01 AM
This reminded me of my own favourite CÜ-III:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000028BTI.01.L.jpg)
J.S.Bach-Dritter Theil der Clavier-Uebung (http://a-fwd.to/5DCjStW)

A gorgeous, stunning organ. I hit it on my #BachByBike trip last summer. In fact, it might have been the most beautiful instrument to look at, at least!
(And still has the organ bench on which Bach himself sat. Very popular with organists, despite a certain lack of modern comfort.)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBsNDayWkAETs-8?format=jpg&name=small)
#Bach-the-Organ-Tester: JSB visits the #AltenburgCastle's church where he played & treated the gorgeous #TrostOrgel.

On the trail of
@BACH_JohannSeb
through #Thuringia & beyond on bicycle.

#BachByBike #Altenburg #Thüringen #TrostOrgel #johannsebastianb... https://ift.tt/2MYjjd9 (https://www.instagram.com/p/B1BjldOAYc_/?igshid=10vd5zjmxavm0)
(The second picture on Instagram shows the picture with inverse sharp/out-of-focus relation.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 12, 2020, 03:44:49 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 11, 2020, 07:39:04 AM
A gorgeous, stunning organ. I hit it on my #BachByBike trip last summer. In fact, it might have been the most beautiful instrument to look at, at least!
(And still has the organ bench on which Bach himself sat. Very popular with organists, despite a certain lack of modern comfort.)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBsNDayWkAETs-8?format=jpg&name=small)
#Bach-the-Organ-Tester: JSB visits the #AltenburgCastle's church where he played & treated the gorgeous #TrostOrgel.

On the trail of
@BACH_JohannSeb
through #Thuringia & beyond on bicycle.

#BachByBike #Altenburg #Thüringen #TrostOrgel #johannsebastianb... https://ift.tt/2MYjjd9 (https://www.instagram.com/p/B1BjldOAYc_/?igshid=10vd5zjmxavm0)
(The second picture on Instagram shows the picture with inverse sharp/out-of-focus relation.)

I've been fortunate to have played that organ a few years ago, and was just looking at videos taken from that trip. Wonderful organ in an intimate church crammed to the brim with Baroque furniture, with a very chamber-music feel to it. I remember playing Frescobaldi's elevation toccata on the famous registration recorded by Agricola, of four 8' flutes in the Oberwerk coupled together. Scrumptious!
About organ benches, I remember this one being relatively comfortable, although on the narrow side. However, the one in Arnstadt (a copy of the original now in the museum) was oddly narrow and would leave half of your butt hanging off the back!

We need more good Bach recordings on Central German organs, and not just the large ones/Silbermanns! Something like Weinberger's Bach integrals, but with a more engaging performer.

I'll check out the CUIII of Friedrich.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 13, 2020, 02:05:58 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 12, 2020, 03:44:49 AM

We need more good Bach recordings on Central German organs, and not just the large ones/Silbermanns! Something like Weinberger's Bach integrals, but with a more engaging performer.



Have you heard David Fanke and Robert Clark's CDs of Bach at Naumburg? And Helga Schauerte at Arnstadt? I think you're being unfair to Weinberger.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 13, 2020, 02:13:44 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 13, 2020, 02:05:58 AM
Have you heard David Fanke and Robert Clark's CDs of Bach at Naumburg? And Helga Schauerte at Arstadt? I think you're being unfair to Weinberger.

I agree. Weinberger is one of my treasured performers, Top 5 of all the Bach organ sets I own. There are many!
And sometimes I think that the discussion about his organ music gets too technical. And although I am able to play the organ,  I love to read about the emotional experience of people rather then getting info about the reeds, stops and what not.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 13, 2020, 05:01:40 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on March 13, 2020, 02:13:44 AM
I agree. Weinberger is one of my treasured performers, Top 5 of all the Bach organ sets I own. There are many!
And sometimes I think that the discussion about his organ music gets too technical. And although I am able to play the organ,  I love to read about the emotional experience of people rather then getting info about the reeds, stops and what not.

I understand your POV entirely, Harry.
On the other hand: to me, (beautiful) choices of registration can certainly have a huge influence on the emotional listening experience. For me personally, it's actually what makes the organ so special as instrument, even though, as I said earlier, I can't name all those stops.
I do recall that 'once upon a long ago', after a concert in the Martinikerk, I walked to organist Peter Westerbrink (from the Der Aa Kerk and Noordbroek), who also was in the audience, and we both agreed that a certain piece was registrated and played beautifully. I asked him, because I was curious to know: "What stop did he use for the cantus firmus?" He answered: "I haven't got the slightest idea."
Well, maybe he was fooling around, but at least it made me feel a bit less clumsy... ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 13, 2020, 06:13:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 13, 2020, 02:05:58 AM
Have you heard David Fanke and Robert Clark's CDs of Bach at Naumburg? And Helga Schauerte at Arnstadt? I think you're being unfair to Weinberger.

I am definitely am being unfair to Weinberger - there is a lot of exciting stuff in the integral. But my general impression is that he's better with bigger organs and bigger works than with more intimate ones. Sort of the polar opposite of Piet Wiersma.

Schauerte I've listened to - I think she can be very uneven, sometimes very engaging but a lot of times a bit rushed and dry. I like her Buxtehude and other pre-Bach recordings more than her Bach. Her Orgelbüchlein is probably my favorite of the set, especially in the more contemplative chorales.

.... that being said, I always say I don't like a recording, and then fall in love after a few more listens. I have to give both another shot - especially Weinberger.

David Fanke and Robert Clark, I've heard Robert Clark on radio somewhere but I don't remember if I liked it. I see that it's one of Premont's recommendations! Is it still available anywhere?
Now that I think of it, I really am not familiar with recordings at Naumburg at all. The only one I've listened much to is Elisabeth Ullmann, and Balint Karosi's Weckmann. Also, it's featured on a radio program here, with great playing and narration by Nathan Laube. https://beta.prx.org/stories/276804

I think there's a wonderful CU III recorded at Naumburg - does anyone know which recording is this? Or am I misremembering?

As for being too technical about organ stuff, I must be one of the worst repeat offenders here! That is indeed how I think about and appreciate organs, as an organist myself, but I will definitely tone the paragraphs of jargon down.

Edit: I forgot that part of Weinberger was recorded at Naumburg. Shame on me!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 13, 2020, 06:35:08 AM
David Franke's CÜ III was recorded at Naumburg. I do not recall others.

It may be true, that we often stress technical details about organ recordings, but to me at least some technical details are an integrated part of the expressivity of the interpretation (which organ? which tuning? which stops?).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 13, 2020, 06:51:22 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 13, 2020, 05:01:40 AM
I understand your POV entirely, Harry.
On the other hand: to me, (beautiful) choices of registration can certainly have a huge influence on the emotional listening experience. For me personally, it's actually what makes the organ so special as instrument, even though, as I said earlier, I can't name all those stops.
I do recall that 'once upon a long ago', after a concert in the Martinikerk, I walked to organist Peter Westerbrink (from the Der Aa Kerk and Noordbroek), who also was in the audience, and we both agreed that a certain piece was registrated and played beautifully. I asked him, because I was curious to know: "What stop did he use for the cantus firmus?" He answered: "I haven't got the slightest idea."
Well, maybe he was fooling around, but at least it made me feel a bit less clumsy... ;)

Thats a nice anecdote, Marc :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 13, 2020, 07:01:56 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 13, 2020, 06:35:08 AM
David Franke's CÜ III was recorded at Naumburg. I do not recall others.

It may be true, that we often stress technical details about organ recordings, but to me at least some technical details are an integrated part of the expressivity of the interpretation (which organ? which tuning? which stops?).

For me too, but it quickly gets to a level that readers have big question marks before them.
When I started to learn to play the Organ, Jan Jongepier gave me a book that he had written to start with, the title of which is "Toegang tot het Orgel"
Introduction to the Organ. When I opened the first page I thought I would never comprehend all the in and outs of this instrument, and it took me years of reading, looking at the workings of het binnenwerk, distinguishing all the different stops, recognizing which is which  in many an organ, not easy at all, to finally getting a grip of all that is involved. So I keep it all as simply as I can, when I explain what I think of an organ recording.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 13, 2020, 07:16:06 AM
I like reading the technical issues posted by you and other members. They are very informative since there is no publication on these matters.

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 13, 2020, 06:13:22 AM
I am definitely am being unfair to Weinberger - there is a lot of exciting stuff in the integral. But my general impression is that he's better with bigger organs and bigger works than with more intimate ones. Sort of the polar opposite of Piet Wiersma.

Schauerte I've listened to - I think she can be very uneven, sometimes very engaging but a lot of times a bit rushed and dry. I like her Buxtehude and other pre-Bach recordings more than her Bach. Her Orgelbüchlein is probably my favorite of the set, especially in the more contemplative chorales.

.... that being said, I always say I don't like a recording, and then fall in love after a few more listens. I have to give both another shot - especially Weinberger.

David Fanke and Robert Clark, I've heard Robert Clark on radio somewhere but I don't remember if I liked it. I see that it's one of Premont's recommendations! Is it still available anywhere?
Now that I think of it, I really am not familiar with recordings at Naumburg at all. The only one I've listened much to is Elisabeth Ullmann, and Balint Karosi's Weckmann. Also, it's featured on a radio program here, with great playing and narration by Nathan Laube. https://beta.prx.org/stories/276804

I think there's a wonderful CU III recorded at Naumburg - does anyone know which recording is this? Or am I misremembering?

As for being too technical about organ stuff, I must be one of the worst repeat offenders here! That is indeed how I think about and appreciate organs, as an organist myself, but I will definitely tone the paragraphs of jargon down.

Edit: I forgot that part of Weinberger was recorded at Naumburg. Shame on me!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 13, 2020, 07:32:09 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 13, 2020, 06:13:22 AM


I think there's a wonderful CU III recorded at Naumburg - does anyone know which recording is this? Or am I misremembering?



That's David Frank. The Clark at Naumburg I have, I can let you have it, but in truth I've never got on with it, and I can't explain why, just me.

Re technical stuff, you taught me about chiff chaff chuff  choff, and that's wonderful!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 13, 2020, 04:28:17 PM
Quote from: "Harry" on March 13, 2020, 07:01:56 AM
For me too, but it quickly gets to a level that readers have big question marks before them.

Yes, but most of the readers here are people who are familiar with rather much of organ technique like yourself and me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 14, 2020, 12:23:31 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 13, 2020, 04:28:17 PM
Yes, but most of the readers here are people who are familiar with rather much of organ technique like yourself and me.

I think this can be seen in most music boards.
Messages, ranging from "i like this performance, cause it sounds good" to "in this recording of Bruckner X, in the first movement, bar Y, the conductor chooses to have it played 'poco mosso' whilst I would prefer it 'poco meno mosso', but for the rest, it's a good performance, because it emphasizes the mood of this work so well, the balance between the instrumental sections are very well released and all modulations in the Finale have been given extra weight."

:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on March 14, 2020, 07:28:03 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on March 13, 2020, 02:13:44 AM
I agree. Weinberger is one of my treasured performers, Top 5 of all the Bach organ sets I own. There are many!
And sometimes I think that the discussion about his organ music gets too technical. And although I am able to play the organ,  I love to read about the emotional experience of people rather then getting info about the reeds, stops and what not.

Harry do you have any favorite pieces from Weinberger?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 14, 2020, 07:43:21 AM
Quote from: hvbias on March 14, 2020, 07:28:03 AM
Harry do you have any favorite pieces from Weinberger?

No not really, I see the set as a whole, in which Weinberger's approach is very stabil. So for me there is not a definable favorite, but if forced I would say the
Orgelbüchlein BWV 599-644; Partiten BWV 768 & 770; Schübler-Choräle BWV 646-650; Choräle BWV 651-663, 665-767, 769, 1085, 1090-1120, BWV Anh. II 58, Anh. II 67, Anh. II 59, Anh. II 55, Anh. II 69; Choralbearbeitung "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" BWV 653b; Choräle aus der Berliner Sammelhandschrift Mus. ms. Bach P 285 BWV Anh. II, 50, Anh. II 52, Anh. II 49, Anh. II 64, Anh. II 63, Anh. II 62a; Choräle aus der Rudorff-Sammlung Leipzig Ms. R 24 BWV deest; Choräle aus der Sammelhandschrift Yale LM 4843 BWV deest;
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 14, 2020, 11:07:04 PM
I do very much believe that a major part of appreciation of organ music also involves the appreciation of the history and technique. The 16th century Uttum organ and the 1928 Skinner at Yale Woolsey Hall are both organs, but they are built at different times with different stops, mechanism, playing technique and tonal philosophy. There's a reason Sweelinck sounds better at Uttum and Elgar better at Woolsey Hall! So it is important to also consider the music in relation to the organ it is played on.

That being said, I don't want to alienate anyone with too much jargon - we should still appreciate the music first, and can always learn to appreciate the nitty-gritty later.


Anyways, I am currently listening to Alain's last integrale on historical instruments (Erato) - had it for a while, but never gotten around to listen to it until now.
And I think that I have here a new favorite for the Orgelbüchlein, a useful foil to Piet Wiersma.
While Wiersma's is earthy, roughly-hewn, and played on intimate Dutch village organs, Alain is graceful, regal, maybe even a bit abstract.
With wonderful contrast between quiet, contemplative (more accurately - quietly ecstatic) settings and expansive, fiery ones. She's at her best here, the free works are wonderful too but not as consistently impressive.

A release to watch out for is Stephen Farr at the Trost organ at Walthershausen - I think Farr is quite like Peter Hurford, a rather "no-nonsense" English organist that usually records on uninteresting modern organs but can sound very good on old ones (or more interesting modern organs). His currently released Bach is not so interesting, but I did very much enjoy his Tudor keyboard music recording.
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODc2NzkyNS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwidG9Gb3JtYXQiOiJqcGVnIiwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX19LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODMyMzY1ODR9)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 15, 2020, 02:50:36 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2003/Jan03/kooiman5.jpg)

Listening to some Orgelbuchlein on this one, I'm very impressed by the Nijkerk organ, with its lovely bass notes. There are a few other things on record but not many and hard to find as far as I can see, and maybe a few thing on youtube which I'll listen to later.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on March 15, 2020, 04:41:14 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 15, 2020, 02:50:36 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2003/Jan03/kooiman5.jpg)

Listening to some Orgelbuchlein on this one, I'm very impressed by the Nijkerk organ, with its lovely bass notes. There are a few other things on record but not many and hard to find as far as I can see, and maybe a few thing on youtube which I'll listen to later.

I do hope Kooiman's cycle on Coronata gets reissued some day!

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 15, 2020, 04:48:18 AM
Quote from: Que on March 15, 2020, 04:41:14 AM
I do hope Kooiman's cycle on Coronata gets reissued some day!

Q

Which continent are you in?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on March 15, 2020, 06:04:49 AM
Quote from: Que on March 15, 2020, 04:41:14 AM
I do hope Kooiman's cycle on Coronata gets reissued some day!

Q


+ 1
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2020, 06:46:58 AM
Quote from: Que on March 15, 2020, 04:41:14 AM
I do hope Kooiman's cycle on Coronata gets reissued some day!

Q

Kooiman/Coronata, Beekman/Lindenberg, Wiersma/Eurosound (unfinished), all these three have eternal value, IMHO.
But I'm not very hopeful about re-releases.

About 6 or 7 years ago, I asked someone of the Groningen Orgelland Foundation about the chances of a Wiersma reissue. "No chance at all", he said. "Selling discs is not our main interest and core business anyway. Discs that go OOP, just go OOP. That's all."

(Side-step: the year before they had been selling the last copies of a few Wiersma volumes for 1 euro per disc, during the organ season in the Martinikerk. I recall an enthousiastic teenage boy who wanted to buy some, and his dad said: "these organs do not have 32ft pedals, they're not very interesting." I just shook my head in disbelief. I said to the boy: "it's probably the last chance you can get them and they sound amazing." So he asked his dad again ;) and was allowed to buy 2 discs. I talked to his father afterwards and he genuinely believed that the smaller organs sounded far too weak and non-impressive. "Give me a big Cavaillé-Coll any time", he said. "Also for Bach and Buxtehude?" I asked. "Sure thing", he said. Well, to each their own.)

I once sent a mail to Brilliant about the possibility of a Beekman reissue on their label: no reaction. They now have issued the BIS Fagius integral (around 2000) and the Molardi set, so I guess that's plenty for them at the moment.

With both the better known Kooiman and Beekman integrals: I just doubt whether the heirs and (former?) copyright holders are interested in such a thing. The Beekman integral gets mentioned from time to time in Dutch protestant-based newspapers or magazines. When a Kooiman set gets a mention, it's mostly the last one (French Silbermanns) they talk about, which was finished by his students.

So yes, recordings by Bernstein, Karajan, Callas, Horowitz: they get dozens of reissues. Including continuing remastering and such.
But the organ world is a small world and interest is apparently (very) low. Which is a pity, because it can be done quite cheap. Most of those recordings, from the 1970s, do not need any remastering at all. Exceptions not included, the recordings are mostly very well done. But the market is just way too small.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 15, 2020, 06:56:09 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 15, 2020, 06:46:58 AM
..... afterwards and he genuinely believed that the smaller organs sounded far too weak and non-impressive. "Give me a big Cavaillé-Coll any time", he said. "Also for Bach and Buxtehude?" I asked. "Sure thing", he said. Well, to each their own.

Essentially this is a child of the same philosophy, which prefers Steinway to harpsichord for Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2020, 06:57:09 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 14, 2020, 11:07:04 PM
I do very much believe that a major part of appreciation of organ music also involves the appreciation of the history and technique. The 16th century Uttum organ and the 1928 Skinner at Yale Woolsey Hall are both organs, but they are built at different times with different stops, mechanism, playing technique and tonal philosophy. There's a reason Sweelinck sounds better at Uttum and Elgar better at Woolsey Hall! So it is important to also consider the music in relation to the organ it is played on.

That being said, I don't want to alienate anyone with too much jargon - we should still appreciate the music first, and can always learn to appreciate the nitty-gritty later.

Well, I don't mind when you use a bit of jargon... when I don't understand, I guess I just have to ask. When I'm not interested, I just carry on. ;)

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 14, 2020, 11:07:04 PM
Anyways, I am currently listening to Alain's last integrale on historical instruments (Erato) - had it for a while, but never gotten around to listen to it until now.
And I think that I have here a new favorite for the Orgelbüchlein, a useful foil to Piet Wiersma.
While Wiersma's is earthy, roughly-hewn, and played on intimate Dutch village organs, Alain is graceful, regal, maybe even a bit abstract.
With wonderful contrast between quiet, contemplative (more accurately - quietly ecstatic) settings and expansive, fiery ones. She's at her best here, the free works are wonderful too but not as consistently impressive.

Funny. Because Alain is, indeed, a bit abstract, I prefer her in the free works. Same goes for a great organist like Ghielmi, btw. Heard him in the Martinikerk once, and also 'live' his chorale playing was just a bit too slick and aloof.

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 14, 2020, 11:07:04 PM
A release to watch out for is Stephen Farr at the Trost organ at Walthershausen - I think Farr is quite like Peter Hurford, a rather "no-nonsense" English organist that usually records on uninteresting modern organs but can sound very good on old ones (or more interesting modern organs). His currently released Bach is not so interesting, but I did very much enjoy his Tudor keyboard music recording.
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODc2NzkyNS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwidG9Gb3JtYXQiOiJqcGVnIiwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX19LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODMyMzY1ODR9)

Well, I don't want to rage the Trost lovers (I have a kind of love-hate relationship with his instruments :-[), but at least I prefer the Waltershausen one to the Altenburg...
My favourite of the (more or less) central German baroque organs is the Treutmann of the Stiftskirche St. Georg in Grauhof, nearby Goslar (Niedersachsen).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2020, 07:09:53 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 15, 2020, 06:56:09 AM
Essentially this is a child of the same philosophy, which prefers Steinway to harpsichord for Bach.

Well, he did like the bigger baroque ones, like Martini, Hamburg (Schnitger, St. Jacobi) and Freiberg Dom (Silbermann).
But he also preferred French romantic organ music to baroque, so his instruments preferences were understandable.

The brother of a friend of mine is a very good organist, who works in Germany. He's also a great admirer of the French Romantics and their instruments. About 5 years ago, he came to Groningen and was allowed to play the Noordbroek Schnitger et al. "How was that?" I asked. "Oh my God, what beautiful stops and sounds", he said. 2 Years ago he gave a concert on a nice little organ somewhere in the Netherlands, which I attended. He's really very good (just a few mistakes) and he played a great BWV 564 at the end. I told him so afterwards, but he's just so modest, he's blushing after every compliment he's been given. :laugh:

Well, enough of them sentimental stories... let's throw a Wiersma disc in my 1980s Philips cd player. ("Oh my God, what beautiful registrations and sounds." ;))
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 15, 2020, 07:51:02 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 15, 2020, 07:09:53 AM
Well, he did like the bigger baroque ones, like Martini, Hamburg (Schnitger, St. Jacobi) and Freiberg Dom (Silbermann).
But he also preferred French romantic organ music to baroque, so his instruments preferences were understandable.

The parallel still works, because the major part of those who prefer piano for Bach also are those, who prefer romantic (and Vienna classical) music.

Quote from: Marc
The brother of a friend of mine is a very good organist, who works in Germany. He's also a great admirer of the French Romantics and their instruments. About 5 years ago, he came to Groningen and was allowed to play the Noordbroek Schnitger et al. "How was that?" I asked. "Oh my God, what beautiful stops and sounds", he said. 2 Years ago he gave a concert on a nice little organ somewhere in the Netherlands, which I attended. He's really very good (just a few mistakes) and he played a great BWV 564 at the end. I told him so afterwards, but he's just so modest, he's blushing after every compliment he's been given. :laugh:

Thanks for this nice little anecdote.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 15, 2020, 08:15:05 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 15, 2020, 06:57:09 AM
Well, I don't want to rage the Trost lovers (I have a kind of love-hate relationship with his instruments :-[), but at least I prefer the Waltershausen one to the Altenburg...
My favourite of the (more or less) central German baroque organs is the Treutmann of the Stiftskirche St. Georg in Grauhof, nearby Goslar (Niedersachsen).

That is interesting, since Waltherhausen is more well preserved but apparently less successful in person (as people who've been there and played it told me) than Altenburg - mainly, the full organ sound is quite mild and distant and doesn't fill the very dry (and unforgiving) room. The original keyboards are also very heavy and the original pedalboard is uncomfortably wide (1.7 m reportedly). But I'm happy that that doesn't deter organists from recording here, since it's still a very intriguing organ to hear.

Simon Reichert has a great Bach trio sonatas recording in Walthershausen - quite a real feat, playing the trio sonatas on a "regular" organ is hard enough!
You can get your full share of Trostian chiff chaff chuff here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lakFMYvkX-6LV8Xxyy8ebOkxxPnJT5DIk


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 15, 2020, 08:33:00 AM
Here's a nice video of the Alternburg Trost I found a while ago

https://www.youtube.com/v/JY_VrJ2T8DM&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2020, 08:34:50 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 15, 2020, 08:15:05 AM
That is interesting, since Waltherhausen is more well preserved but apparently less successful in person (as people who've been there and played it told me) than Altenburg - mainly, the full organ sound is quite mild and distant and doesn't fill the very dry (and unforgiving) room. The original keyboards are also very heavy and the original pedalboard is uncomfortably wide (1.7 m reportedly). But I'm happy that that doesn't deter organists from recording here, since it's still a very intriguing organ to hear.

Simon Reichert has a great Bach trio sonatas recording in Walthershausen - quite a real feat, playing the trio sonatas on a "regular" organ is hard enough!
You can get your full share of Trostian chiff chaff chuff here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lakFMYvkX-6LV8Xxyy8ebOkxxPnJT5DIk

Thanks.

I.c. the difficulty and toughness of playing those old beauties: the Schnitger et al of the Der Aa Kerk is also a notorious case. This doesn't mean the organists do not want to play on it. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2020, 08:37:27 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 15, 2020, 08:15:05 AM
[...]
Simon Reichert has a great Bach trio sonatas recording in Walthershausen - quite a real feat, playing the trio sonatas on a "regular" organ is hard enough!
You can get your full share of Trostian chiff chaff chuff here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lakFMYvkX-6LV8Xxyy8ebOkxxPnJT5DIk

I'm posting too soon, cause I've just started listening to BWV 525/1. But what can I say? Just lovely lovely lovely.

EDIT: whilst listening to BWV 525/2 :laugh:... even more lovely lovely lovely. Yes, I think I'd go for the Waltershausen Trost instead of Altenburg... personal preferences, what to do about them? ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 15, 2020, 08:43:26 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 15, 2020, 06:46:58 AM
Kooiman/Coronata, Beekman/Lindenberg, Wiersma/Eurosound (unfinished), all these three have eternal value, IMHO.
But I'm not very hopeful about re-releases.

About 6 or 7 years ago, I asked someone of the Groningen Orgelland Foundation about the chances of a Wiersma reissue. "No chance at all", he said. "Selling discs is not our main interest and core business anyway. Discs that go OOP, just go OOP. That's all."

(Side-step: the year before they had been selling the last copies of a few Wiersma volumes for 1 euro per disc, during the organ season in the Martinikerk. I recall an enthousiastic teenage boy who wanted to buy some, and his dad said: "these organs do not have 32ft pedals, they're not very interesting." I just shook my head in disbelief. I said to the boy: "it's probably the last chance you can get them and they sound amazing." So he asked his dad again ;) and was allowed to buy 2 discs. I talked to his father afterwards and he genuinely believed that the smaller organs sounded far too weak and non-impressive. "Give me a big Cavaillé-Coll any time", he said. "Also for Bach and Buxtehude?" I asked. "Sure thing", he said. Well, to each their own.)

I once sent a mail to Brilliant about the possibility of a Beekman reissue on their label: no reaction. They now have issued the BIS Fagius integral (around 2000) and the Molardi set, so I guess that's plenty for them at the moment.

With both the better known Kooiman and Beekman integrals: I just doubt whether the heirs and (former?) copyright holders are interested in such a thing. The Beekman integral gets mentioned from time to time in Dutch protestant-based newspapers or magazines. When a Kooiman set gets a mention, it's mostly the last one (French Silbermanns) they talk about, which was finished by his students.

So yes, recordings by Bernstein, Karajan, Callas, Horowitz: they get dozens of reissues. Including continuing remastering and such.
But the organ world is a small world and interest is apparently (very) low. Which is a pity, because it can be done quite cheap. Most of those recordings, from the 1970s, do not need any remastering at all. Exceptions not included, the recordings are mostly very well done. But the market is just way too small.

Great to know that there are still young people who appreciate the organ! My organ teacher recently visited Stef Tuinstra in Groningen and was surprised to see lots of young adults in the congregation during sunday morning. (he also got some time on the Schnitger organ) Was quite a shock, as back here we play for an aging Episcopalian congregation.

And I really wish that I was in Groningen 5 years ago :) 

In the US, despite the efforts since the 50's of people like E. Power Biggs, John Brombaugh etc. to popularize the traditional mechanical action organ, in some circles there can still be quite vehement "anti-tracker sentiment" with people defending "bigger is better" at all costs. Some of it is warranted, since we did replace some good Skinner organs to equally marvelous, but liturgically less useful Flentrops, but often the criticism is more ideological. But it did result in some big mistakes (in my opinion), such as plans for a Flentrop organ at Carnegie hall being cancelled, or later in the 90's when the symphony hall in San Francisco decided to take a really crappy and screamy Ruffatti organ over a Fisk as their concert hall organ.

Don't know if it will be cancelled due to coronavirus, but this summer the enormous Ruffatti organ in Crystal Cathedral, South California (first designed by Virgil Fox, the original anti-trackerite) will be inagurated after restoration. I'd rather be in Groningen, but I'll be there to check it out :)

Speaking of E. Power Biggs, he was obviously a great organist but his recordings from the 50's and 60's suffered the same fate as Wiersma, Kooiman, and Beekman's did later - Columbia threw the original tapes out once interest in them dwindled. Thankfully they were popular enough back then and old records are not hard to found, and I have a few. (although I don't have a good system to play them on) Besides for having great playing on them, they are also great documents of the state of many old organs during the 50's and 60's.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2020, 08:58:49 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 15, 2020, 08:43:26 AM
Great to know that there are still young people who appreciate the organ! My organ teacher recently visited Stef Tuinstra in Groningen and was surprised to see lots of young adults in the congregation during sunday morning. (he also got some time on the Schnitger organ) Was quite a shock, as back here we play for an aging Episcopalian congregation.

And I really wish that I was in Groningen 5 years ago :) 

In the US, despite the efforts since the 50's of people like E. Power Biggs, John Brombaugh etc. to popularize the traditional mechanical action organ, in some circles there can still be quite vehement "anti-tracker sentiment" with people defending "bigger is better" at all costs. Some of it is warranted, since we did replace some good Skinner organs to equally marvelous, but liturgically less useful Flentrops, but often the criticism is more ideological.

Don't know if it will be cancelled due to coronavirus, but this summer the enormous Ruffatti organ in Crystal Cathedral, South California (first designed by Virgil Fox, the original anti-trackerite) will be inagurated after restoration. I'd rather be in Groningen, but I'll be there to check it out :)

Speaking of E. Power Biggs, he was obviously a great organist but his recordings from the 50's and 60's suffered the same fate as Wiersma, Kooiman, and Beekman's did later - Columbia threw the original tapes out once interest in them dwindled. Thankfully they were popular enough back then and old records are not hard to found, and I have a few. (although I don't have a good system to play them on) Besides for having great playing on them, they are also great documents of the state of many old organs during the 50's and 60's.

I.c. the Tuinstra service: if it was on a Sunday in the Martini, then it was probably the oecumenical service, organized by the christian Student Ministry of Groningen. And since Groningen is a University and Graduate School city, it's not so strange that (relatively) many young people come there.
I can assure you, in our country, in general, the churches are probably more empty than in the USA. Churches are either quickly emptying or closing rapidly (the few exceptions aside), and perishes are merged.

Another thing about Groningen: there are probably more organ afficionados here, also because the local Conservatory is specialized in organ music. So there are (relatavily) many organ students here, also from abroad (especially Asia). But the amount of Dutch kids and students who choose for organ has been going down in the last 2 or 3 decades, too.

I think I have 2 discs of Power Biggs (best name for an organist ever), and I think he's fine. I most certainly appreciate his way of playing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 15, 2020, 09:20:20 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tXrt-N_4vY

EPB at the 1721 Schnitger & sons organ at Zwolle, at that time freshly reconstructed by Flentrop - again, I like his recordings on old organs more than the ones on his "home" organ, the Flentrop at Harvard. Fleet footed and energetic Dorian P&F! It's funny that now, Flentrop is once again taking this organ apart to restore it according to everything new we have learned about Schnitger organ in these 70 years.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2020, 09:38:51 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 15, 2020, 08:33:00 AM
Here's a nice video of the Alternburg Trost I found a while ago

https://www.youtube.com/v/JY_VrJ2T8DM&feature=youtu.be

Nice indeed. Close up to the sound... lovely.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2020, 09:42:33 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 15, 2020, 09:20:20 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tXrt-N_4vY

EPB at the 1721 Schnitger & sons organ at Zwolle, at that time freshly reconstructed by Flentrop - again, I like his recordings on old organs more than the ones on his "home" organ, the Flentrop at Harvard. Fleet footed and energetic Dorian P&F! It's funny that now, Flentrop is once again taking this organ apart to restore it according to everything new we have learned about Schnitger organ in these 70 years.

It's not my preferred way of playing BWV 538, but I admit I'm just not a sucker for the slowly crescendo built-up of the fugue.
This man was much better though than (indeed f.i.) Virgil Fox or Michael Murray, IMHO.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 15, 2020, 11:50:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 15, 2020, 02:50:36 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2003/Jan03/kooiman5.jpg)

Listening to some Orgelbuchlein on this one, I'm very impressed by the Nijkerk organ, with its lovely bass notes. There are a few other things on record but not many and hard to find as far as I can see, and maybe a few thing on youtube which I'll listen to later.

Just listened to this, I think the playing needs some time to sink in because it doesn't do much to me yet. The organ is indeed very nice, very "French" (as late Dutch Baroque can tend to be) with quite a nasal sound. Reminds me of the Heyemann organ in s'Hertogenbosch where Ton Koopman recorded a speedy and reedy BWV 547 in his Novalis Bach set.

Lots of stuff on YouTube, Nijkerk has a well maintained channel where they post recordings on the organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 15, 2020, 02:13:18 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 15, 2020, 11:50:13 AM
Just listened to this, I think the playing needs some time to sink in because it doesn't do much to me yet.

No, they're played a bit too straight, a bit too much like he's lost touch with the soul of the music. I switched to Wiersma in the same sequence, though I prefer Kooiman's organ and the sound Coronata gave him. I always think the best Orgelbuchleins turn each set in the book into a little cycle, Kooimam doesn't quite do that.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 16, 2020, 12:08:43 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 15, 2020, 08:37:27 AM
I'm posting too soon, cause I've just started listening to BWV 525/1. But what can I say? Just lovely lovely lovely.

EDIT: whilst listening to BWV 525/2 :laugh:... even more lovely lovely lovely. Yes, I think I'd go for the Waltershausen Trost instead of Altenburg... personal preferences, what to do about them? ;)

How do you think of John Butt's Trio sonatas recording? I think Butt and Reichert are conceptually very similar, Butt is even a bit more lively and irreverent. It's music ideally suited for dry acoustics and intimate organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on March 16, 2020, 08:47:27 AM
Quote from: "Harry" on March 14, 2020, 07:43:21 AM
No not really, I see the set as a whole, in which Weinberger's approach is very stabil. So for me there is not a definable favorite, but if forced I would say the
Orgelbüchlein BWV 599-644; Partiten BWV 768 & 770; Schübler-Choräle BWV 646-650; Choräle BWV 651-663, 665-767, 769, 1085, 1090-1120, BWV Anh. II 58, Anh. II 67, Anh. II 59, Anh. II 55, Anh. II 69; Choralbearbeitung "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" BWV 653b; Choräle aus der Berliner Sammelhandschrift Mus. ms. Bach P 285 BWV Anh. II, 50, Anh. II 52, Anh. II 49, Anh. II 64, Anh. II 63, Anh. II 62a; Choräle aus der Rudorff-Sammlung Leipzig Ms. R 24 BWV deest; Choräle aus der Sammelhandschrift Yale LM 4843 BWV deest;

Thanks Harry.

Quote from: Que on March 15, 2020, 04:41:14 AM
I do hope Kooiman's cycle on Coronata gets reissued some day!

Q

I would suggest anyone that is interested to email Brilliant Classics, they are quite receptive to customer feedback. I just sent them an email, I would think licensing from a small defunct label would be reasonable.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 16, 2020, 09:03:44 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 16, 2020, 12:08:43 AM
How do you think of John Butt's Trio sonatas recording? I think Butt and Reichert are conceptually very similar, Butt is even a bit more lively and irreverent. It's music ideally suited for dry acoustics and intimate organs.

Yes, I recall good listening memories of that one.
Of course, these trio sonatas work very well in a 'chamber' like setting. On the other hand, I don't mind listening to them in a more spatial church either. Like Marie-Claire Alain's recording in the Der Aa Kerk, Groningen (Schnitger/Timpe). Or in a live concert, for that matter. As long as the organ delivers a sound to my liking. In this case, I'm blessed and priviliged with living in 'my' good ole town. ;)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 16, 2020, 09:09:35 AM
Quote from: hvbias on March 16, 2020, 08:47:27 AM
[...]

I would suggest anyone that is interested to email Brilliant Classics, they are quite receptive to customer feedback. I just sent them an email, I would think licensing from a small defunct label would be reasonable.

I think I read somewhere, years ago, that the copyrights of that Coronata set are now owned by Kooiman's heirs. Or maybe the owner of Toccata records, who assisted back then with a few of the recordings, told me so. Which would mean that it's not an 'easy grab'.
But I applaud your initiative!
I tried it with Beekman, but I did not get an answer. Maybe because Brilliant was in a 'transition period' back then... the label was sold to another owner IIRC.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 16, 2020, 09:16:52 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 16, 2020, 12:08:43 AM
It's music ideally suited for dry acoustics and intimate organs.

Well excuse ME. I like them played dark, deep and meaningful on the Hamburg or Groningen Schnitger. None of this Butting about in my house.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 16, 2020, 11:07:57 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 16, 2020, 09:16:52 AM
Well excuse ME. I like them played dark, deep and meaningful on the Hamburg or Groningen Schnitger. None of this Butting about in my house.

Interesting, the recordings at Hamburg that I know are Nordstoga and Koopman. I like Koopman a bit more - bolder registrations and playing. But in general I do think of these pieces as chamber music, I enjoy the intimacy and being able to hear every irregularity in the pipes' speech that would otherwise get evened out in a more spacious acoustic.

There are some recordings of the Trios on big organs that I do like, though This one, for instance. https://youtu.be/S-elphI8Z2I
Or Walter Kraft.

By Groningen, are you referring to Koito on Harmonic records? I've heard bits of that one and it was good.

I am making my way through Alain III, I will report back when I hit the trio sonatas.

Another one that I like is that of David Yearsley's, played on the organ at Sage Chapel Cornell, a reconstruction mostly based on the destroyed Schnitger organ of Berlin Eosanderkapelle. Schnitger adapted to the prevailing central german style when building that organ, so stops you would never see in North German organs like viola da gambas and tapered wooden flutes made an appearance there.
Some great colors in the organ, combines the dusty sounds of Central Germany with the cheerful brightness of most familiar North German Schnitgers.
It's a good "balanced" recording, between the two extremes (intimacy vs grandeur).
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mfFeB0QwxLHrK6MkudfBx8onci_4zK5Ec
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 16, 2020, 11:18:19 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 16, 2020, 11:07:57 AM
Interesting, the recordings at Hamburg that I know are Nordstoga and Koopman. I like Koopman a bit more - bolder registrations and playing. But in general I do think of these pieces as chamber music, I enjoy the intimacy and being able to hear every irregularity in the pipes' speech that would otherwise get evened out in a more spacious acoustic.

There are some recordings of the Trios on big organs that I do like, though This one, for instance. https://youtu.be/S-elphI8Z2I
Or Walter Kraft.

By Groningen, are you referring to Koito on Harmonic records? I've heard bits of that one and it was good.

I am making my way through Alain III, I will report back when I hit the trio sonatas.

Another one that I like is that of David Yearsley's, played on the organ at Sage Chapel Cornell, a reconstruction mostly based on the destroyed Schnitger organ of Berlin Eosanderkapelle. Schnitger adapted to the prevailing central german style when building that organ, so stops you would never see in North German organs like viola da gambas and tapered wooden flutes made an appearance there.
It's a good "balanced" recording, between the two extremes (intimacy vs grandeur).
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mfFeB0QwxLHrK6MkudfBx8onci_4zK5Ec

I wonder if Nordstoga suffers from bad sound. I can't tell whether it's the sound take or just his way of controling (or trying to control) the organ. I just went back to it after that post.

Koito at Groningen, yes, and also, maybe more interesting, Rubsam on Naxos.



I'd like to join you in your exploration of Alain III, I'll listen to the trio sonatas today or tomorrow. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 16, 2020, 12:46:49 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 16, 2020, 11:18:19 AM
I wonder if Nordstoga suffers from bad sound. I can't tell whether it's the sound take or just his way of controling (or trying to control) the organ. I just went back to it after that post.

There is an earlier Nordstoga recording. I own it, but haven't listened to it yet.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8044476--j-s-bach-org-trio-so

BTW I found Reichert's recording particularly refreshing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on March 16, 2020, 01:03:12 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 16, 2020, 09:09:35 AM
I think I read somewhere, years ago, that the copyrights of that Coronata set are now owned by Kooiman's heirs. Or maybe the owner of Toccata records, who assisted back then with a few of the recordings, told me so. Which would mean that it's not an 'easy grab'.
But I applaud your initiative!
I tried it with Beekman, but I did not get an answer. Maybe because Brilliant was in a 'transition period' back then... the label was sold to another owner IIRC.

Good info, thanks. I've emailed them about a few things in the last couple of years, I usually got very fast responses from their customer service.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 16, 2020, 11:51:41 PM
In the trio sonatas I really want to hear all thee voices clearly, all of them presented with their own character. I don't think Alain III manages this specially well.

I went back to Rübsam in Groningen, which seems to me a magnificent interpretation! And for once that organ gets a decent sound take.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 17, 2020, 03:26:42 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 16, 2020, 11:51:41 PM
In the trio sonatas I really want to hear all thee voices clearly, all of them presented with their own character. I don't think Alain III manages this specially well.

I went back to Rübsam in Groningen, which seems to me a magnificent interpretation! And for once that organ gets a decent sound take.

Apropos Trio Sonatas: I still like the old Holm Vogel recordings on a 1950s (?) Leipzig Schuke Organ: http://a-fwd.to/5Ji8C9w

Oh, yes, the ClassicsToday review of the transcription disc, mentioned earlier in this thread, is up:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETToo8PWkAAb_8B?format=jpg&name=small)
Latest 10/10 #CDReview for @classicstoday:
Marvelous Bach Transcriptions From Groningen's Martinikerk

https://classicstoday.com/review/marvelous-bach-transcriptions-from-groningens-martinikerk/

w/#ErwinWiersinga &  #LeoVanDoeselaar (@hausemousse) on #mDG (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/marvelous-bach-transcriptions-from-groningens-martinikerk/)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 17, 2020, 04:03:01 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 17, 2020, 03:26:42 AM
Apropos Trio Sonatas: I still like the old Holm Vogel recordings on a 1950s (?) Leipzig Schuke Organ: http://a-fwd.to/5Ji8C9w

Oh, yes, the ClassicsToday review of the transcription disc, mentioned earlier in this thread, is up:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETToo8PWkAAb_8B?format=jpg&name=small)
Latest 10/10 #CDReview for @classicstoday:
Marvelous Bach Transcriptions From Groningen's Martinikerk

https://classicstoday.com/review/marvelous-bach-transcriptions-from-groningens-martinikerk/

w/#ErwinWiersinga &  #LeoVanDoeselaar (@hausemousse) on #mDG (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/marvelous-bach-transcriptions-from-groningens-martinikerk/)

Hi Jens,

Can I mail the link of the review to the sacristan of the Martinikerk?
Maybe he can add it to their Facebook and/or Twitter page.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 17, 2020, 09:07:14 AM
Quote from: Marc on March 17, 2020, 04:03:01 AM
Hi Jens,

Can I mail the link of the review to the sacristan of the Martinikerk?
Maybe he can add it to their Facebook and/or Twitter page.

Obviously! All dissemination is most welcome! :-) (I've tried to tag the Martinikerk on all these pages, too... that's part of the point of my posts, to connect those institutions & artists that have social media profiles... so maybe they've seen it.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 17, 2020, 09:09:35 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 17, 2020, 03:26:42 AM
Apropos Trio Sonatas: I still like the old Holm Vogel recordings on a 1950s (?) Leipzig Schuke Organ: http://a-fwd.to/5Ji8C9w


Yeh, never heard that before and it's really very agreeable in a mainstream sort of way. This sort of performance can get a bit predictable to me - it's like it's  it's just for fun, pleasure, rather than for any challenge, and challenge is really important to me in music, literature, art etc. I like to feel as though some sort exciting experimentation is going on.


I've been listening to Chorzempa too, which is more experimental, and that's good!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 17, 2020, 12:46:21 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 17, 2020, 09:09:35 AM
Yeh, never heard that before and it's really very agreeable in a mainstream sort of way. This sort of performance can get a bit predictable to me - it's like it's  it's just for fun, pleasure, rather than for any challenge, and challenge is really important to me in music, literature, art etc. I like to feel as though some sort exciting experimentation is going on.

Holm Vogel was a pupil of Walcha, which can be heard to advantage in his part playing. My only problem with his recording of the trio sonatas (and his CÜ III on the same organ) is the organ, which is generic and faceless, a typical East-German factory organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 17, 2020, 07:35:08 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 17, 2020, 12:46:21 PM
Holm Vogel was a pupil of Walcha, which can be heard to advantage in his part playing. My only problem with his recording of the trio sonatas (and his CÜ III on the same organ) is the organ, which is generic and faceless, a typical East-German factory organ.

This is EPB playing Bach's Passacaliaga on the same organ - it's a great, not sterile, performance. EPB in his alpha state. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbujihIjN8I
That being said, I'm very glad they replaced that Schuke with the current Woehl.

Alain III Trio sonatas: just listened to a few. The Aakerk organ sounds as mild and beautiful as usual in the soupy acoustics. There's a sense of relaxed extraversion in the recording that I very much like. Some sonatas are more successful, I like especially sonatas 2, 3, and 5 - sprightly movements especially.

I do agree with Mandryka that voices can be a bit hard to distinguish - Alain seems to think of the sonatas less of trios than a voice accompanied by two others (sort of like Bach's gamba or violin sonatas), since she often registers one voice much stronger than the other two, relegating them to the background. Also, another thing contributing to this is the size of the organ and the space - on a smaller organ, we can usually tell apart two voices by slight differences in timbre even if they are registered similarly. On a big organ, a lot of this contrast has to be done through registration (thus the soloist vs 2 accompanying voices) and spatial difference between the divisions, and this is probably harder to capture on recording.

*My bad, I didn't realize that Holm Vogel was not recorded in the Thomaskirche.

Any thoughts on Hubert Meister? I remember hearing it before and liking it, but I just listened to sound samples online again and was actually quite disappointed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 17, 2020, 09:38:52 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 17, 2020, 09:07:14 AM
Obviously! All dissemination is most welcome! :-) (I've tried to tag the Martinikerk on all these pages, too... that's part of the point of my posts, to connect those institutions & artists that have social media profiles... so maybe they've seen it.)

Thanks!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 18, 2020, 01:45:20 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 17, 2020, 07:35:08 PM


Any thoughts on Hubert Meister? I remember hearing it before and liking it, but I just listened to sound samples online again and was actually quite disappointed.

A sort of sweep forward to the music sometimes, as if he's bitten it all it off in one go, he reminds me of Walter Gieseking in that respect -- in Scarbo.

Am I right to think 525-7 are at Frosshartmannsdorf and the other three are at Forchheim?

(Been listening to both Stockmeier and Beekman, both of whom seem really special to me!)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 19, 2020, 04:13:24 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 18, 2020, 01:45:20 AM
Am I right to think 525-7 are at Frosshartmannsdorf and the other three are at Forchheim?

According to the booklet sonatas 1, 2 ,5 and 6 are recorded at Grosshartmansdorf and
sonatas 3 and 4 at Forchheim.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 19, 2020, 05:30:05 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on March 19, 2020, 04:13:24 AM
According to the booklet sonatas 1, 2 ,5 and 6 are recorded at Grosshartmansdorf and
sonatas 3 and 4 at Forchheim.

Thanks - both fine organs in different ways. The recording is a nice one to own.


I just found this on Qobuz, it contains another performance of BWV 529 and some chorales. The organ sounds pure, I bet it's not very old, I can't find any details,  there's some info about it here. Nice performance but no match for Grosshartmansdorf.

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubert_Meister

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81g--ZnuK2L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 22, 2020, 02:51:11 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 24, 2019, 07:42:16 AM
@Mandryka, you once recommended this box set to me:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xkQAAOSwWbVdprum/s-l400.jpg)

It's Ton Koopman playing Bach works on various organs. Well, it's been a few months now and I'm just finally coming around on organ music enough to the point where I think I would actually find value in such a set. Do you stand by your recommendation? I like what little I've heard of the music here and it's going for cheaply enough anyway. Or do you think there is a better option out there? I have also been considering Helmut Walcha's box, which I understand is on the other end of the spectrum...?

I just pulled out volume 6 of this set and gave it a spin. (BWV 547, some CU III chorales, Trio sonata 3 BWV 527, BWV 533, BWV 662, BWV 548 "wedge")
Well, I've mentioned the exceptionally reedy and speedy (at least the prelude) BWV 547 here before, but I've forgotten how good the rest of the playing is. The grand preludes and fugues, which often receive more attention than chorale-based works, are naturally played very fast, but somehow, the organ and acoustic takes it well.

The organ here is the one in the Den Bosch ('s-Hertogenbosch) Janskerk, a classic 17th century Dutch city organ rebuilt in the 18th century in Southern Dutch rococo style, then heavily restored by Flentrop in the 80's. A bit of a typical Dutch "Jack of all trades" instrument now with quite the French accent, handles romantic music very nicely too.
It sounds the best here, I like the sound better than Beekman's recordings on it (Here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqrmlyK8lFQ), which seems a bit sterile.

Often times, Koopman's playing can be a little "rigid" when fast, but definitely not in this recording. He uses much more little agogics in this recording compared to his later ones, softening up while preserving the breathless forward momentum of his playing - I like BWV 548 and his trio sonata much more than on his later set for this reason. Here's an example of a "big organ" trio sonata done well, a good mixture of intimacy and grandeur.
I also like his use of echoes in the BWV 533 fugue.

Koopman plays the chorales in a careful, broad, contemplative manner - again, he's more "on it" here than on Freiburg Silbermann, the way he slowly opens the organ up starting from a single flute in BWV 669 and ending with something short of full organ on BWV 671 is most alluring.

While I do tend to like the Schnitger instruments (used in the later set) more, I do like the fiery, nasal, reed-soaked plenum of the Den Bosch organ, along with the multitudes of soft rococo colors in the trio sonatas and chorales.

Anyways, I think this is one of Koopman's best single Bach recordings.

In general, I think this 6-disc set is either Koopman's best (the one at Ottobeuren with the Passacaliaga, Weingarten, this one), not as good as his later integrale (recordings on Muller organs), or completely forgettable (Maasluis)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 22, 2020, 03:04:41 PM
Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned this Weinberger recording here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nAsyUTn2Xer8tDI5om75BbXhHkWtt98hU

The Bach on it is very good! I would describe the playing as straightforward and muscular, the meantone tuning of the organ adds to the charm.
Reminds me that I do have to give his integrale another chance.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 23, 2020, 12:43:47 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 22, 2020, 02:51:11 PM
I just pulled out volume 6 of this set and gave it a spin. (BWV 547, some CU III chorales, Trio sonata 3 BWV 527, BWV 533, BWV 662, BWV 548 "wedge")
Well, I've mentioned the exceptionally reedy and speedy (at least the prelude) BWV 547 here before, but I've forgotten how good the rest of the playing is. The grand preludes and fugues, which often receive more attention than chorale-based works, are naturally played very fast, but somehow, the organ and acoustic takes it well.

The organ here is the one in the Den Bosch ('s-Hertogenbosch) Janskerk, a classic 17th century Dutch city organ rebuilt in the 18th century in Southern Dutch rococo style, then heavily restored by Flentrop in the 80's. A bit of a typical Dutch "Jack of all trades" instrument now with quite the French accent, handles romantic music very nicely too.
It sounds the best here, I like the sound better than Beekman's recordings on it (Here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqrmlyK8lFQ), which seems a bit sterile.

Often times, Koopman's playing can be a little "rigid" when fast, but definitely not in this recording. He uses much more little agogics in this recording compared to his later ones, softening up while preserving the breathless forward momentum of his playing - I like BWV 548 and his trio sonata much more than on his later set for this reason. Here's an example of a "big organ" trio sonata done well, a good mixture of intimacy and grandeur.
I also like his use of echoes in the BWV 533 fugue.

Koopman plays the chorales in a careful, broad, contemplative manner - again, he's more "on it" here than on Freiburg Silbermann, the way he slowly opens the organ up starting from a single flute in BWV 669 and ending with something short of full organ on BWV 671 is most alluring.

While I do tend to like the Schnitger instruments (used in the later set) more, I do like the fiery, nasal, reed-soaked plenum of the Den Bosch organ, along with the multitudes of soft rococo colors in the trio sonatas and chorales.

Anyways, I think this is one of Koopman's best single Bach recordings.

In general, I think this 6-disc set is either Koopman's best (the one at Ottobeuren with the Passacaliaga, Weingarten, this one), not as good as his later integrale (recordings on Muller organs), or completely forgettable (Maasluis)

It's nice to be reminded of this one, after a panic at least, because I'd incorrectly tagged it so it was a bugger to find. I know it of old because, years ago, I decided to explore CU3 in depth and I was really impressed by Koopman's playing of the first three chorales. At the time, those chorales were hard for me because they seemed sombre and heavy. But Koopman lightens them up, no doubt helped by the reedy organ. Great thing to rediscover this morning. I still like the way he plays those chorales a lot.

Those Novalis recordings come from the 1980s, a time when, in my milieu, rebellious teenagers used to get high on amphetamines in clubs. Listening to his extraordinary 547 prelude made me think of this.

I was once in Holland and I met someone who was a great friend of Koopman. This chap came from the far and distant north of Holland, and he was passionate about early music in that Dutch way we're all very familiar with. Anyway he said he had met Ton Koopman in Amsterdam years ago and told him that he was trying to get music education and therapy and concerts going in his little town in the north and Koopman immediately volunteered to help. He would travel up , give recitals, master classes, concerts etc. All gratis and all with great charm .


Re Massluis I'm inclined to agree with you except for one thing - Aus tiefer not - my least favourite bit of CU3 in fact. But I think that what Koopman does is not bad - serious without being severe, weighty without being heavy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 23, 2020, 09:04:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 23, 2020, 12:43:47 AM
[...]

I was once in Holland and I met someone who was a great friend of Koopman. This chap came from the far and distant north of Holland, and he was passionate about early music in that Dutch way we're all very familiar with. Anyway he said he had met Ton Koopman in Amsterdam years ago and told him that he was trying to get music education and therapy and concerts going in his little town in the north and Koopman immediately volunteered to help. He would travel up , give recitals, master classes, concerts etc. All gratis and all with great charm.

When the little Schnitger in Mensingeweer (small village in Groningen province, NL) was restored, Koopman came and gave a concert for free, too.
I thought it was a pity though that he, during his opening speech, began complaining (again) about other scholars, especially German, who disagreed with his vision on Bach. You could feel that the majority of the audience did not come to hear that.

I also recall him visiting a pub after a concert and, together with a few other concertgoers, we waved at him cheerfully and he cheerfully waved back with a big smile.

Quote from: Mandryka on March 23, 2020, 12:43:47 AM
Re Massluis I'm inclined to agree with you except for one thing - Aus tiefer not - my least favourite bit of CU3 in fact. But I think that what Koopman does is not bad - serious without being severe, weighty without being heavy.

Yes, I remember your 'dislike' of BWV 686. I do apologize... it's still my favourite chorale of CU3 ;). I can listen to that piece even 3 or 4 times in a row.
Like you, I think that Koopman's performance on the Maassluis Novalis/Brilliant disc is quite good. And I'm also happy with his performances of the small (Krebs?) Preludes & Fugues BWV 553-560. Very enjoyable. The same goes for the Trio Sonata in E Flat, BWV 525. The only small problem I have with this issue is the recording sound, which is a bit too dim. When I listen to this disc, I always give the 'treble' rotary button on my ole fashioned receiver a big 'hit' to brighten up and sharpen the sound.
Turning up the volume helps, too. Yeah.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Traverso on April 02, 2020, 07:34:14 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/bNwKsyYy/lindenberg-3-web.jpg)


There is good news for organ aficionados,in time there will be a new edition of the Bach / Beekman recordings.




Piet Lindenberg is working on a reissue of the integral recording of Bach's organ oeuvre by the recently deceased organist Bram Beekman.

That reports The Organ Friend in the latest issue. Between 1990 and 1996, Beekman recorded for the LBCD van Lindenberg label all organ works by Bach, played on fourteen historical organs, on nine double CDs. The series has been sold out for years.

Piet Lindenberg has now planned to re-release the entire series in a collection box with textbook, possibly in combination with Beekman's recording of the complete organ oeuvre by César Franck. The cost of the collection box, which should be released next year, will be less than 100 euros.

Interested parties can report to the publisher via pietlindenberg@solcon.nl.


Because other activities took a long time from 2003 onwards, LBCD production almost came to a halt. In 2008 the curtain fell on the store in Rotterdam; a third party at that time managed to improperly annex the LBCD stock. Everything appeared to have ended up in the ram before appropriate measures could be taken. However, the rights and production materials are still owned by Lindenberg Productions BV and owner Piet Lindenberg has decided to revive the label again in 2019. In the older generations, mentioning LBCD is still a direct indication of recognition. There is therefore every reason to continue in the same way (quality and information) and also to introduce the new generation (s) to the label. In addition, the new possibilities of making earlier productions available through streaming are also being examined.

https://www.lindenbergproductions.nl/over-ons/

https://www.rd.nl/muziek/heruitgave-bachintegrale-organist-bram-beekman-1.549733

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on April 02, 2020, 07:58:08 AM
Quote from: Traverso on April 02, 2020, 07:34:14 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNwKsyYy/lindenberg-3-web.jpg)


There is good news for organ aficionados,in time there will be a new edition of the Bach / Beekman recordings.




Piet Lindenberg is working on a reissue of the integral recording of Bach's organ oeuvre by the recently deceased organist Bram Beekman.

That reports The Organ Friend in the latest issue. Between 1990 and 1996, Beekman recorded for the LBCD van Lindenberg label all organ works by Bach, played on fourteen historical organs, on nine double CDs. The series has been sold out for years.

Piet Lindenberg has now planned to re-release the entire series in a collection box with textbook, possibly in combination with Beekman's recording of the complete organ oeuvre by César Franck. The cost of the collection box, which should be released next year, will be less than 100 euros.

Interested parties can report to the publisher via pietlindenberg@solcon.nl.


Email send, told them I am game for this box.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 04, 2020, 08:02:48 PM
Sounds good! Thanks a lot.

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 22, 2020, 03:04:41 PM
Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned this Weinberger recording here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nAsyUTn2Xer8tDI5om75BbXhHkWtt98hU

The Bach on it is very good! I would describe the playing as straightforward and muscular, the meantone tuning of the organ adds to the charm.
Reminds me that I do have to give his integrale another chance.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on April 05, 2020, 08:36:14 PM
(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2020-04/1586079729_cover.jpg)

A recently (today, if I'm not misktaken) released recording. Bright, cheery, confident, performances, albeit with a bit of reserve that I really enjoy. Small, intimate organ used very resourcefully. Not jaw-dropping, mind-blowing or anything, but a charming recording - it's worth listening to one or two of the sonatas on here.

Bears a family resemblance to my favorite John Butt recording, but rather more balanced and careful. (and in a more forgiving acoustic)
Also a wonderful honesty/innocence/directness that brings to mind Piet Wiersma.

Edit: My god, he does take his time in the slow movements! It's bound to cause some debate, but I actually like this a lot, how leisurely the pace is and how we can admire, chew on every phrase. I've never enjoyed the slow movements more! And the fast movements become all the more refreshing afterwards.

Edit 2: added youtube link
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ne5S4LTR2N81zIkjl6-Oh-bjsy7oBT8L0
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 06, 2020, 02:42:54 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on April 05, 2020, 08:36:14 PM
(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2020-04/1586079729_cover.jpg)

A recently (today, if I'm not misktaken) released recording. Bright, cheery, confident, performances, albeit with a bit of reserve that I really enjoy. Small, intimate organ used very resourcefully. Not jaw-dropping, mind-blowing or anything, but a charming recording - it's worth listening to one or two of the sonatas on here.

Bears a family resemblance to my favorite John Butt recording, but rather more balanced and careful. (and in a more forgiving acoustic)
Also a wonderful honesty/innocence/directness that brings to mind Piet Wiersma.

Edit: My god, he does take his time in the slow movements! It's bound to cause some debate, but I actually like this a lot, how leisurely the pace is and how we can admire, chew on every phrase. I've never enjoyed the slow movements more! And the fast movements become all the more refreshing afterwards.

Edit 2: added youtube link
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ne5S4LTR2N81zIkjl6-Oh-bjsy7oBT8L0

WTF?????!!!!!!! 12'40 for the adagio of 525. What is it, a little modern chamber organ? Probably not, I'm on 527 now, these are characterful performances, he's tried to give each sonata its own character beyond the melodies. I don't want anyone to think that's an endorsement, it's too early, too challenging.

Have you heard Cage's ASLSP?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 06, 2020, 02:55:55 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 06, 2020, 02:42:54 AM
WTF?????!!!!!!! 12'40 for the adagio of 525. [...]

Maybe he had just listened to Rübsam's BWV 582 and thought: I can do better than that. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on April 06, 2020, 01:17:56 PM
Quote from: Traverso on April 02, 2020, 07:34:14 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNwKsyYy/lindenberg-3-web.jpg)


There is good news for organ aficionados,in time there will be a new edition of the Bach / Beekman recordings.




Piet Lindenberg is working on a reissue of the integral recording of Bach's organ oeuvre by the recently deceased organist Bram Beekman.

That reports The Organ Friend in the latest issue. Between 1990 and 1996, Beekman recorded for the LBCD van Lindenberg label all organ works by Bach, played on fourteen historical organs, on nine double CDs. The series has been sold out for years.

Piet Lindenberg has now planned to re-release the entire series in a collection box with textbook, possibly in combination with Beekman's recording of the complete organ oeuvre by César Franck. The cost of the collection box, which should be released next year, will be less than 100 euros.

Interested parties can report to the publisher via pietlindenberg@solcon.nl.


Because other activities took a long time from 2003 onwards, LBCD production almost came to a halt. In 2008 the curtain fell on the store in Rotterdam; a third party at that time managed to improperly annex the LBCD stock. Everything appeared to have ended up in the ram before appropriate measures could be taken. However, the rights and production materials are still owned by Lindenberg Productions BV and owner Piet Lindenberg has decided to revive the label again in 2019. In the older generations, mentioning LBCD is still a direct indication of recognition. There is therefore every reason to continue in the same way (quality and information) and also to introduce the new generation (s) to the label. In addition, the new possibilities of making earlier productions available through streaming are also being examined.

https://www.lindenbergproductions.nl/over-ons/

https://www.rd.nl/muziek/heruitgave-bachintegrale-organist-bram-beekman-1.549733

Thanks very much Traverso, I sent them an email.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on April 06, 2020, 02:25:47 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 06, 2020, 02:42:54 AM
WTF?????!!!!!!! 12'40 for the adagio of 525. What is it, a little modern chamber organ? Probably not, I'm on 527 now, these are characterful performances, he's tried to give each sonata its own character beyond the melodies. I don't want anyone to think that's an endorsement, it's too early, too challenging.

Have you heard Cage's ASLSP?

Sort of an interesting organ concept, an organ with only 3 stops in each manual plus a 16' reed (!) in the pedal, conceptually a small chamber organ but optimized for a much larger space.

Something we forget when we think "bigger is better" is that there's something really comforting about having an organ with a limited selection of stops, but where everything blends well with everything else and it's hard to make a bad registration.

I'm sure the Italians are already familiar with this, having played one-manual meantone short octave organs for centuries!

ASLSP: I only wish that I can live to 639 to witness the performance that best conveys Cage's intent! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 19, 2020, 08:44:41 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 04, 2017, 04:48:54 AM
(http://redmp3.su/cover/2837337-460x460/galantes-gelehriges.jpg)

Opinions requested on this unusual recording of the sonatas by Rainer Goede.

I just happened to find the recording on YT.  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mr3zTDwbQ7cInkztV8uGnQNE86RdoeCGU

Also his CU3, which I like.  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nggNhPvBS-lToMlO58ewtWTZ8c8_hM53Q

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on April 20, 2020, 03:43:22 PM
Crosspost from WAYLT
TD
CD7
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41jDYaR63LL.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51xQWcDE6dL.jpg)
Overall I am liking this, with all sorts of stuff bundled together almost at random. Chief oddity is that about ten chorales from the Orgelmesse appear well apart from the main group. Recordings date from the 60s and 70s, with some organs being obviously better than others (and I am suspect that at least a couple were heavily "restored" over the years), although the set provides no details on the individual organs.

Program of this CD
Herbert Collum at Reinhardtsgrimma (1731)
Pastorella in F Major BWV 590 rec May 1960
Partita on Gott du Frommer Gott BWV 767 rec July 1965
Christoph Albrecht at Crostau (1732)  rec June 1966
Preludes and Fugues in D Major BWV 532
                                       in c minor BWV 549
                                       in d minor BWV 539
Triosonata IV in e minor BWV 528
Fugue in G Major BWV 576
Prelude and Fugue in C Major BWV 547
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on April 22, 2020, 01:49:22 AM
The older separate (single/double) issues of the "Silbermann" series that appeared in the late 1990s (and probably earlier as well, of course also on LPs) does have a few pages information the respective organs. So this is probably findable in some organ freaks forum or as scans of the LP covers or so.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 24, 2020, 10:27:40 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 22, 2020, 01:49:22 AM
The older separate (single/double) issues of the "Silbermann" series that appeared in the late 1990s (and probably earlier as well, of course also on LPs) does have a few pages information the respective organs. So this is probably findable in some organ freaks forum or as scans of the LP covers or so.

At least the organs used (although as much might be gleaned from the sparse packaging, too) can be found via _mouse-over_ on the Bach Organ Survey page: https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html)

All these organs have since seen careful restoration since reunification... some had been in bad shape. But they had been roughly preserved in their state, rather than having been modernized, an much of that thanks to Albert Schweitzer, actually, who was very active in the field of making sure that his beloved organs of central Germany didn't get ruined by insensitive modernization.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on June 04, 2020, 04:37:04 PM
https://www.crocodilemusic.com/cd/36/#home

An interesting Bach CD - the keyboardist of Sky (and very capable organist/music historian) playing on a 1767 Gerhard organ in Schloeben, Thuringia. Very charming, no-nonsense playing with beautiful, typically "dusty" central German sounds here. This is all judged from the sound samples - anyone familiar with the full recording?

Reminds me that I still need to revisit Weinberger. Also, the parts of Foccroulle Integrale that is recorded on these obscure non-Silbermann central German organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on June 05, 2020, 12:07:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ngr3kqEe0lVi-9K9eR_OQEx_WyRgnEn3Y

The smaller CUIII chorales and several smaller free works on a 1765 Johann Baptist Hilgers organ in the Lutheran church in Vaals, South Netherlands.

The organ is small (10 stops on a single manual) but is very sweet and colorful. It also sounds much bigger than it is, and really sings beautifully in the room. I think it's a very compelling mix of intimacy and grandeur!

Leenders' playing is clean and honest, bringing to mind Bram Beekman. Unpretentious, just like this humble little Lutheran organ.

Here, you can see picture of the little "box pedal" on this organ! Not something to play BWV 540 on :)
https://www.dekopermolenvaals.nl/nl/nieuws/nieuwsberichten/hans-leenders-speelt-bach-op-het-hilgers-orgel
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 01, 2020, 07:45:38 AM
Have anybody listened to Olivier Latry's Bach recordings? Any opinion or impression?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on September 01, 2020, 08:31:02 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 01, 2020, 07:45:38 AM
Have anybody listened to Olivier Latry's Bach recordings? Any opinion or impression?

Free-spirited, romantic Bach, "screw all those soulless white-lab-coat calvinist academic-ivory-tower HIP people", "liberal application of swell pedal" sort of Bach. I have to say I'm mostly impressed by the big pieces that need all the bravado and spanish trumpets that they can take, rather than the quieter things where I prefer a closer and more intimate sound.
Even if I'm too much of a soulless white-lab-coat calvinist academic-ivory-tower HIP person to listen to it regularly, it's music making of the highest order. The passacaglia is a killer.

Edit: I'm talking about his Bach to the future. Haven't heard anything else from him - he has some live performances on Neo-Baroque Fritts organs but they sound rather cold and "correct", oddly enough.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on September 01, 2020, 08:58:57 PM
Being impressed by Friedhelm Flamme's recent Buxtehude recording (full of big bravado moments where he gets to take his 32' reed out for a walk), I wondered how he would fare in Bach. Against Harry's better judgement I decided to give this one a try.
I remember Mandryka comparing Flamme to Koopman, which I didn't understand at first. Now it makes sense, they both try to drive the music forward bull-whacker style, except Flamme is otherwise quite deadpan and Koopman noodles all over the place.
(https://www.organroxx.com/web/binary/image?model=organroxx_muziekdb_v2.album&id=3824&field=cover_picture)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lYBsr5ab1P02fXIxIf0fXV2iAUZu4BBDU

This one's a mixed bag, being all the little pieces which may or may not be Bach that no one plays anyways. His playing is similarly mixed, sometimes being downright boring (even weird, like the registration in BWV 667) and other times charming in a direct way (sort of like Piet Wiersma). The Treutmann, which he has been playing almost everything on (Praetorius? Lübeck? Buxtehude etc.) is again very colorful and definitely is built for this sort of music, rather than Praetorius.

Here's also a fast and angry BWV 566 - for me certainly in the bottom quartile of performances I've heard of this seldom-played but brilliant prelude.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J4Ig8IYTb8

That being said, I'd like to hear him play more Bach, especially his major works. Maybe some more fast and angry stuff - BWV 542 or 548?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 02, 2020, 12:09:54 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 01, 2020, 07:45:38 AM
Have anybody listened to Olivier Latry's Bach recordings? Any opinion or impression?

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on September 01, 2020, 08:31:02 PM
Free-spirited, romantic Bach, "screw all those soulless white-lab-coat calvinist academic-ivory-tower HIP people", "liberal application of swell pedal" sort of Bach. I have to say I'm mostly impressed by the big pieces that need all the bravado and spanish trumpets that they can take, rather than the quieter things where I prefer a closer and more intimate sound.
Even if I'm too much of a soulless white-lab-coat calvinist academic-ivory-tower HIP person to listen to it regularly, it's music making of the highest order. The passacaglia is a killer.

Edit: I'm talking about his Bach to the future. Haven't heard anything else from him - he has some live performances on Neo-Baroque Fritts organs but they sound rather cold and "correct", oddly enough.

Sounds about right. Haven't heard a ton of Bach from him (and none live, that I remember), but did review his Bach-recording from Notre Dame for ClassicsToday:

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/bach-before-the-fire-latry-on-notre-dames-cavaille-coll-organ/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 02, 2020, 05:08:49 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on September 01, 2020, 08:31:02 PM
Free-spirited, romantic Bach, "screw all those soulless white-lab-coat calvinist academic-ivory-tower HIP people", "liberal application of swell pedal" sort of Bach. I have to say I'm mostly impressed by the big pieces that need all the bravado and spanish trumpets that they can take, rather than the quieter things where I prefer a closer and more intimate sound.
Even if I'm too much of a soulless white-lab-coat calvinist academic-ivory-tower HIP person to listen to it regularly, it's music making of the highest order. The passacaglia is a killer.

Edit: I'm talking about his Bach to the future. Haven't heard anything else from him - he has some live performances on Neo-Baroque Fritts organs but they sound rather cold and "correct", oddly enough.

Thank you for the post. I will order Bach to the Future (though not thrilled by the innovative and fashionable title). I think he has released 7-8 albums of the Bach works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 02, 2020, 05:10:51 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on September 02, 2020, 12:09:54 AM
Sounds about right. Haven't heard a ton of Bach from him (and none live, that I remember), but did review his Bach-recording from Notre Dame for ClassicsToday:

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/bach-before-the-fire-latry-on-notre-dames-cavaille-coll-organ/

Yes I have read the review, and have been wondering if I should order it. I will get the disc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on October 30, 2020, 03:26:08 AM
I'm trying to get more seriously into Bach's organ music. I was wondering what techniques are specific to the organ and what limitations there are compared to other keyboard instruments. What is it that you look for in a performance of this genre? I'm guessing that rubato is not possible on an organ in the same way it is on a harpsichord?
I've listened to too much of Bach's non-organ keyboard oeuvre. There is an embarrassment of riches in Bach's organ music. I used to gather favorites together but now I'm just trying to listen to it either randomly or more completely.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 30, 2020, 06:07:38 AM
Quote from: milk on October 30, 2020, 03:26:08 AM
I was wondering what techniques are specific to the organ

The obvious one is colour, registration.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on October 30, 2020, 06:53:21 AM
Quote from: Traverso on April 02, 2020, 07:34:14 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNwKsyYy/lindenberg-3-web.jpg)


There is good news for organ aficionados,in time there will be a new edition of the Bach / Beekman recordings.




Piet Lindenberg is working on a reissue of the integral recording of Bach's organ oeuvre by the recently deceased organist Bram Beekman.

That reports The Organ Friend in the latest issue. Between 1990 and 1996, Beekman recorded for the LBCD van Lindenberg label all organ works by Bach, played on fourteen historical organs, on nine double CDs. The series has been sold out for years.

Piet Lindenberg has now planned to re-release the entire series in a collection box with textbook, possibly in combination with Beekman's recording of the complete organ oeuvre by César Franck. The cost of the collection box, which should be released next year, will be less than 100 euros.

Interested parties can report to the publisher via pietlindenberg@solcon.nl.


Because other activities took a long time from 2003 onwards, LBCD production almost came to a halt. In 2008 the curtain fell on the store in Rotterdam; a third party at that time managed to improperly annex the LBCD stock. Everything appeared to have ended up in the ram before appropriate measures could be taken. However, the rights and production materials are still owned by Lindenberg Productions BV and owner Piet Lindenberg has decided to revive the label again in 2019. In the older generations, mentioning LBCD is still a direct indication of recognition. There is therefore every reason to continue in the same way (quality and information) and also to introduce the new generation (s) to the label. In addition, the new possibilities of making earlier productions available through streaming are also being examined.

https://www.lindenbergproductions.nl/over-ons/

https://www.rd.nl/muziek/heruitgave-bachintegrale-organist-bram-beekman-1.549733

Anyone know of any updates or progress on this? Thanks.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on October 30, 2020, 06:59:31 AM
Also the action of most organs is marginally slower than the action of a harpsichord, particularly as to the pedal pipes (they speak slower). This means that ornamentation and to some extent fast runs can't be executed equally brilliant as on a harpsichord.

And on an organ a note sounds from you press the key and until you lever it, whereas the sound dies away on a harpsichord rather fast after you have pressed the key,. This has important implications for the articulation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on October 30, 2020, 07:05:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 30, 2020, 06:07:38 AM
The obvious one is colour, registration.
Right. And that changes with the period. I guess I have to read up on the history of organs. How does one assess this though? It seems like there are too many possible registrations.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on October 30, 2020, 07:07:13 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 30, 2020, 06:59:31 AM
Also the action of most organs is marginally slower than the action of a harpsichord, particularly as to the pedal pipes (they speak slower). This means that ornamentation and to some extent fast runs can't be executed equally brilliant as on a harpsichord.

And on an organ a note sounds from you press the key and until you lever it, whereas the sound dies away on a harpsichord rather fast after you have pressed the key,. This has important implications for the articulation.
Interesting. Yes it seems less flexible in a way but endlessly flexible in terms of color and grandeur.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 30, 2020, 09:03:57 AM
Quote from: milk on October 30, 2020, 07:05:08 AM
Right. And that changes with the period. I guess I have to read up on the history of organs. How does one assess this though? It seems like there are too many possible registrations.

Yes so the organist has to make some decisions about that, at least if he's playing Bach. That's all part of the fun, a big part.

Another thing about organs is that they can be loud, and in some of the music that's important.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on November 07, 2020, 04:48:51 PM
Jörg Halubek's second volume out of his Bach Integrale has been released, featuring the Leipzig chorales on the reconstructed 18th century organ in Ansbach. Good, no-nonsense playing, more Central German chiff-chaff-chuff for the lovers of it.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91l+7LWTHhL._SS500_.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lXdTjsYOQSB6_2iFb5OOtW7Mv07SK73jA
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 07, 2020, 11:39:41 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on November 07, 2020, 04:48:51 PM
Jörg Halubek's second volume out of his Bach Integrale has been released, featuring the Leipzig chorales on the reconstructed 18th century organ in Ansbach. Good, no-nonsense playing, more Central German chiff-chaff-chuff for the lovers of it.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91l+7LWTHhL._SS500_.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lXdTjsYOQSB6_2iFb5OOtW7Mv07SK73jA

Well that's a colourful organ to choose for these preludes. A quick look at France-orgue shows that Reine Goede had recorded them there before. I must say, the sound is so completely unexpected that I've gone into shock listening. I'm going to have a sniff of the smelling salts and listen to some of Rübsam on Naxos playing the same music to reinstate my confidence in Bach. 

https://france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.fra.rch&org=&tit=&oeu=&ins=Ansbach&cdo=1&dvo=1&vno=1&cmd=Rechercher&edi=
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 08, 2020, 12:42:04 AM
And having now listened again to some of the Rübsam I have a question: why does everyone play the last bit of BWV 656 quickly? Everyone, that is, apart from Rübsam on Naxos.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 08, 2020, 09:11:51 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 08, 2020, 12:42:04 AM
And having now listened again to some of the Rübsam I have a question: why does everyone play the last bit of BWV 656 quickly? Everyone, that is, apart from Rübsam on Naxos.

There is no indication that the basic tempo should change during the piece. Even the 9/4 section in versus 3 should have the same basic tempo. Never-the-less it is natural to slow a bit down in the chromatic part of that versus and then resume the original tempo afterwards.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 08, 2020, 09:32:53 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on November 08, 2020, 09:11:51 AM
There is no indication that the basic tempo should change during the piece. Even the 9/4 section in versus 3 should have the same basic tempo. Never-the-less it is natural to slow a bit down in the chromatic part of that versus and then resume the original tempo afterwards.

I think what Rubsam does sounds really good though -- I'm  not saying it's the only way, but it is a good way.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on November 08, 2020, 11:50:55 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 08, 2020, 09:32:53 AM
I think what Rubsam does sounds really good though -- I'm  not saying it's the only way, but it is a good way.

I don't think Rübsam changes tempo at that section, he just plays everything at a net slower pace. I like it - too many rushed 656's out there.

I can't tell if your Halubek comments are an endorsement or not. I like Kensuke Ohira on the same organ: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mk9LYlS9g01BRcNusQBH-XjBVu5xS0JHY Yes, very colorful.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on November 08, 2020, 11:55:53 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 08, 2020, 09:32:53 AM
I think what Rubsam does sounds really good though -- I'm  not saying it's the only way, but it is a good way.

Now you urge me to listen to it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 08, 2020, 11:57:45 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on November 08, 2020, 11:50:55 AM
I don't think Rübsam changes tempo at that section, he just plays everything at a net slower pace. I like it - too many rushed 656's out there.


I agree. Another slow one, probably my favourite, is Koopman at Ottobeuren on Novalis. Even Don Satz, someone who used to post here and hated Koopman, liked that one!

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on November 08, 2020, 11:50:55 AM


I can't tell if your Halubek comments are an endorsement or not.

Nor can I, I need to give it more time. I know that I was immediately attracted to his CU3, less so to this, but nothing follows.

(Listening now to the organ music through smaller speakers than this morning - now Spendor SP1, this morning Quad ESL 63 - has made me see how essential big speakers are! )
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on November 08, 2020, 02:15:05 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 08, 2020, 11:57:45 AM
I know that I was immediately attracted to his CU3, less so to this, but nothing follows.

After a few listens, I find his playing a bit boring - fast, light and indifferent. But maybe I'll get over it, it's still a promising set.

I have a sense that the Waltershausen Trost organ is simply so eccentric and full of character that in most recordings of it I hear more organ than player. (I mean, take away the charming timbres of the instrument and you are left with a rather unremarkable performance)
I wonder what a really distinctive performer, Ton Koopman for instance, can do on it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 08, 2020, 07:14:14 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on November 08, 2020, 02:15:05 PM
After a few listens, I find his playing a bit boring - fast, light and indifferent. But maybe I'll get over it, it's still a promising set.



I can see that, but the sound is good and it was a pleasure to hear the music played in a pretty straightforward way. Weinberger recorded some of the Leipzig Chorales at Waltershausen, I must go back to that one, I remember feeling positive about what he did in one of his recordings of that music, but I can't remember if it was Waltershausen or Feriberg.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on November 09, 2020, 09:20:36 PM
Bach owned a pedal harpsichord, right? Do we know if it was mainly a practice instrument for organ works?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on November 10, 2020, 12:35:58 AM
Quote from: milk on November 09, 2020, 09:20:36 PM
Bach owned a pedal harpsichord, right? Do we know if it was mainly a practice instrument for organ works?

'3. Clavire nebst Pedal' given to JC Bach upon his death - likely a pedal clavichord with 2 manuals. (some also argue that it was a pedal harpsichord)

Usually organ builders, upon building a new organ, would also provide a set of pedal clavichords with the same console dimensions as the organ for practice. Pedal harpsichords were much rarer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on November 10, 2020, 02:12:24 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on November 10, 2020, 12:35:58 AM
'3. Clavire nebst Pedal' given to JC Bach upon his death - likely a pedal clavichord with 2 manuals. (some also argue that it was a pedal harpsichord)

Usually organ builders, upon building a new organ, would also provide a set of pedal clavichords with the same console dimensions as the organ for practice. Pedal harpsichords were much rarer.
wait a second. Pedal clavichord? How did I miss this? Has no one made a recording with this instrument?
ETA: Vogel, I see. But it's V1 and not streaming.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on November 10, 2020, 04:29:30 PM
Quote from: milk on November 10, 2020, 02:12:24 PM
wait a second. Pedal clavichord? How did I miss this? Has no one made a recording with this instrument?
ETA: Vogel, I see. But it's V1 and not streaming.

Vogel, and also Balint Karosi on Youtube with the trio sonatas. The pedal harpsichord has gotten more of the spotlight in the past (or I guess harpsichords in general) but pedal clavichords were definitely more common. Even Bruckner practiced on one in the early 19th century.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 13, 2020, 12:00:05 AM
Somewhat of a random question, maybe I should ask it on a more dedicated musicology place but throwing it out here:

In the booklet notes of both Foccroulle's integrale and Ablitzer's 'Johann Sebastian Bach Organ masterpieces' (Harmonic records), they mention that the fugue theme of BWV 544 (an otherwise rather straightforward scale-based construction) to be based on a certain 'gipsy song, a sad song of a woman in a loveless marriage' (I quote from Foccroulle).

Foccroulle:
'An analogy has recently been drawn between this theme and that of a gipsy song, a sad song of a woman in a loveless marriage — as was indeed the case with the Princess, who lived apart from her husband.'

Something also repeated, independently (?) in Ablitzer's notes:
'With regard to the fugue, Bach chose for the theme a popular Central European song, one certainly known to the Princess, having as a subject, an unhappy marriage, which was the case of the Princess.'

Now, I've never heard of this. What is this 'central european song' in question?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2020, 01:23:23 AM
No idea about the gypsy song, the comment comes from Gilles Cantagrel, so it's probably reliable

https://harmonicclassics.com/album/IT_HC_D_0957/

A question for Premont. You once gave me a recording of Leonhardt playing BWV544. It's a very good organ! What is it? I can't find it on France-orgue.fr
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 13, 2020, 02:15:05 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 13, 2020, 01:23:23 AM
No idea about the gypsy song, the comment comes from Giles Cantagrel, so it's probably reliable

https://harmonicclassics.com/album/IT_HC_D_0957/

a question for Premont. You once gave me a recording of Leonhardt playing BWV544. It's a very good organ! What is it? I can't find it on France-orgue.fr

Ablitzer's BWV 544 recording dates from 1996. The very authoritative book by Peter Williams (The organ music of Bach ed. 2003) mentions nothing of that kind. I admit that I have read as well Cantagrel's as Foccroulles notes quite a long time ago, but didn't taken their theories about the gypsy song seriously because of the lack of a unequivocal reference.

Leonhardt's BWV 544 is recorded on the Müller organ, Waalse Kerk, Amsterdam. Most of his Bach organ recordings were made on this organ.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2020, 07:22:59 AM
It comes from Cantagrel's book Bach en son temps. He says it's based on a bohemian song, and in the same paragraph he asserts that BWV 542 is based in some way on a Dutch song. I'm not sure whether Gilles Cantagrel was a serious scholar or just an enthusiastic well informed journalist, I suspect the latter.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 13, 2020, 11:53:17 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 13, 2020, 07:22:59 AM
It comes from Cantagrel's book Bach en son temps. He says it's based on a bohemian song, and in the same paragraph he asserts that BWV 542 is based in some way on a Dutch song. I'm not sure whether Gilles Cantagrel was a serious scholar or just an enthusiastic well informed journalist, I suspect the latter.

About the fugue of BWV 542 it's true that there is a Dutch song very similar. I saw the sheet music to this song long time ago but don't recall the details (title). Maybe some of our Dutch members can help.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 13, 2020, 12:49:43 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 13, 2020, 11:53:17 AM
About the fugue of BWV 542 it's true that there is a Dutch song very similar. I saw the sheet music to this song long time ago but don't recall the details (title). Maybe some of our Dutch members can help.

I know about BWV 542, it's based on this song: http://speelmuziek.liederenbank.nl/?page=view&id=2334&v=1
Supposedly as an act of homage to the Dutch Reincken, when Bach improvised on the subject for him in 1720.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 20, 2020, 01:38:13 AM
Fitting for Christmas, a relaxed and poetic BWV 547. No Koopmanian fireworks here but I like the subtle ebb and flow it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CESkAetMZjQ
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 30, 2020, 01:43:50 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 13, 2020, 07:32:09 AM
That's David Frank. The Clark at Naumburg I have, I can let you have it, but in truth I've never got on with it, and I can't explain why, just me.

While transferring files to another hard drive, Clark and I crossed paths again. I previously said that I had a hard time with it but liked the chorale preludes more than the preludes and fugues.
Coming back to it, I still like the Chorales more - maybe with the exception of the last Dorian p&f. Playing is frankly a little boring, too relaxed and without any sort of internal tension I think, a bit featureless - maybe watery as I used to say. There are still charming spots here or there - like in the first Allein gott chorale, quite lively. The chorales do benefit from interesting sounds that the Naumburg organ makes.

The recording angle is a bit too distant for me, too much boomy cathedral acoustics and not enough of the pipes hissing at you. I think it makes Clark's playing a bit more sleepy sounding, like slow motion swimming in molasses. The impressive 32' reed also does not work well under this recording condition - it just further muddies the acoustic mush. Weinberger's closer recording is definitely better at catching the performer's sense of intention.

That being said the mostly homophonic BWV 715 chorale with 32's on is pretty impressive, probably the single thing I enjoyed the most here.

Meanwhile, the sound reminds me how much Silbermann style is in the work of Hildebrandt - Hildebrandt was an apprentice to Silbermann but when he left to start his own organ building workshop got screwed over by Silbermann who sued him and prevented him from being a direct competitor. Anyways, it doesn't have as strong of an individual character as most large Silbermann organs but the plenum and pedal reeds definitely resemble Silbermann.

Clark made another Bach recording on a modern Brombaugh organ - nice organ but not nearly as charming as a real antique. Again, rather straitlaced playing but it somehow reminds me of Rübsam's Naxos playing which is popular in these neighborhoods.
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/117/MI0001117748.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on January 15, 2021, 09:36:50 AM
(http://www.jamesjohnstone.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/METCD-1096-James-Johnstone-Bach-Grauhof-Front-Cover.jpg)

New release from James Johnstone's series, this time played on the well known Treutmann organ in Grauhof. Having difficulty with it, he uses a very colorful organ but the playing itself just isn't engaging. But that isn't to say that there are no good moments - BWV 656 here, for instance, taken slowly and using soft sounds. Or BWV 665 played on an interesting sounding reedy full organ. And of course BWV 668, nice and slowly à la Leonhardt, with the added benefit of characterful central german sounds.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Harry on January 15, 2021, 10:47:24 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on January 15, 2021, 09:36:50 AM
(http://www.jamesjohnstone.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/METCD-1096-James-Johnstone-Bach-Grauhof-Front-Cover.jpg)

New release from James Johnstone's series, this time played on the well known Treutmann organ in Grauhof. Having difficulty with it, he uses a very colorful organ but the playing itself just isn't engaging. But that isn't to say that there are no good moments - BWV 656 here, for instance, taken slowly and using soft sounds. Or BWV 665 played on an interesting sounding reedy full organ. And of course BWV 668, nice and slowly à la Leonhardt, with the added benefit of characterful central german sounds.

That was my impression throughout.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on January 15, 2021, 12:26:42 PM
Quote from: "Harry" on January 15, 2021, 10:47:24 AM
That was my impression throughout.

A bit of a shame, since I thought his playing on volume 2 (Roskilde) was brilliant (very extrovert), and I liked his Pieter Cornet.
On the bright side, I looked him up on youtube and he's posted Bach from an older recording he made in Amsterdam. It's also flashy, dashing playing similar to vol 2. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIgxIhby3ns5tyM8mSVkszQ/videos
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on March 23, 2021, 07:20:38 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on January 15, 2021, 09:36:50 AM
(http://www.jamesjohnstone.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/METCD-1096-James-Johnstone-Bach-Grauhof-Front-Cover.jpg)

New release from James Johnstone's series, this time played on the well known Treutmann organ in Grauhof. Having difficulty with it, he uses a very colorful organ but the playing itself just isn't engaging. But that isn't to say that there are no good moments - BWV 656 here, for instance, taken slowly and using soft sounds. Or BWV 665 played on an interesting sounding reedy full organ. And of course BWV 668, nice and slowly à la Leonhardt, with the added benefit of characterful central german sounds.

I have listened to this set, and I find that the main problem is the elusive acoustics of the venue, which Johnstone doesn't take suficciently into consideration. He plays too much legato resulting in muddiness of the music, and he has most of the time chosen combinations of stops, which add to the muddiness instead of creating transparency. Actually I find it difficult to hear what his idea of this work is. This organ demands slower tempi and much more clear and precise articulation. The engineer may be partly responsible - don't know. I think of a number of other recordings I own which are played on this organ, where these problems are significantly less pronounced. In the end I feel, that Johnstone on another organ - and maybe another engineer - might have been able to do a more decent CÜ III.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 29, 2021, 11:22:45 AM
Sixth trio sonata at Uithuizen

https://www.youtube.com/v/slfSTazbYhE&ab_channel=NetherlandsBachSociety
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 10, 2021, 08:55:16 PM
I listened to three recordings of Bach's Prelude and Fugue BWV248, "The Wedge."

The Alain digital set
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81uQ3b8svUL._SX522_.jpg)

The Weinberg set
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41bQFoyK-UL.jpg)

The Andra Isoir set
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61vt13L5Q4L._SX522_.jpg)

For many years the Alain set has been my reference, but I must admit I enjoyed the Isoir set most of all. Wonderful clarity of line, whereas Alain tended towards the clamorous. I don't know whether to attribute that to registration, the instrument, or the recording technique. I think Isoir may become my new reference.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 12, 2021, 01:29:40 AM
I haven't heard Isoir, Weinberger is too rushed, Alain III is rather spoilt by the memory of the glorious Alain II wedge. Leonhardt set the standard for me though, and I would hate to be without Werner Jacob.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 12, 2021, 02:20:55 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 12, 2021, 01:29:40 AM
I haven't heard Isoir, Weinberger is too rushed, Alain III is rather spoilt by the memory of the glorious Alain II wedge. Leonhardt set the standard for me though, and I would hate to be without Werner Jacob.

After posting this I also listened to Alain II, and it is indeed splendid and perhaps the best of the lot.

At one point I had the Werner Jacob EMI set but sold it, for some reason, probably to buy Alain III.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 12, 2021, 04:18:49 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 12, 2021, 02:20:55 AM
After posting this I also listened to Alain II, and it is indeed splendid and perhaps the best of the lot.

At one point I had the Werner Jacob EMI set but sold it, for some reason, probably to buy Alain III.

Jacob just does something a bit magical, he gives the prelude a sort of relief, a 3D texture. I can't explain it any better. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 12, 2021, 09:32:15 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 12, 2021, 04:18:49 AM
Jacob just does something a bit magical, he gives the prelude a sort of relief, a 3D texture. I can't explain it any better.

My recollection is that it was an early CD release and I found the high end slightly harsh, as was not uncommon in those days. If I could wish it back I would.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Papy Oli on July 01, 2021, 03:04:41 PM
If one is new to organ music in general and wants to dip a toe or two in Bach's organ music, which few BWV numbers are worth selecting in the various works (Toccatas, Fugues, Chorales, etc) for some comparative sampling please ?

I have for instance enjoyed a first foray into the random pick of Trio Sonata No.1 earlier today (Koopman, Alain II, Hurford, Richter).

Where next please ? In any style.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 01, 2021, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on July 01, 2021, 03:04:41 PM
If one is new to organ music in general and wants to dip a toe or two in Bach's organ music, which few BWV numbers are worth selecting in the various works (Toccatas, Fugues, Chorales, etc) for some comparative sampling please ?

I have for instance enjoyed a first foray into the random pick of Trio Sonata No.1 earlier today (Koopman, Alain II, Hurford, Richter).

Where next please ? In any style.

Difficult question because most of his organ music is top notch. If you liked the first trio sonata, the five others are a logical way to continue. Other than these I would recommend the passacaglia, all the toccatas (the Dorian the most) the Orgelbüchlein and Clavierübung III. Alain II is a good guide as to these works. I suppose you are not that HIP orientated talking about Hurford and Richter, and IMO some of the most impressive Bach organ recordings are not strictly HIP (Walcha, Stockmeier, Kraft and to some degree Isoir). So even if I theoretically prefer HIP; I'm not a fanatic.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 01, 2021, 04:23:51 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 12, 2021, 04:18:49 AM
Jacob just does something a bit magical, he gives the prelude a sort of relief, a 3D texture. I can't explain it any better.

If IIRC he recorded it on the Hildebrandt organ in the church of St. Wenzel in Naumburg. I am impressed by how he makes this monstrous organ sound as if it was built for this work.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 02, 2021, 12:42:36 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 10, 2021, 08:55:16 PM
I listened to three recordings of Bach's Prelude and Fugue BWV248, "The Wedge."


548 not 248!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Papy Oli on July 02, 2021, 02:38:07 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 01, 2021, 04:07:16 PM
Difficult question because most of his organ music is top notch. If you liked the first trio sonata, the five others are a logical way to continue. Other than these I would recommend the passacaglia, all the toccatas (the Dorian the most) the Orgelbüchlein and Clavierübung III. Alain II is a good guide as to these works. I suppose you are not that HIP orientated talking about Hurford and Richter, and IMO some of the most impressive Bach organ recordings are not strictly HIP (Walcha, Stockmeier, Kraft and to some degree Isoir). So even if I theoretically prefer HIP; I'm not a fanatic.

Thank you for the pointers, Peter, duly noted. I have started on the Passacaglia this morning.

The organ world is completely new to me so I have no a priori or presumptions on the organs, organists, HIP or otherwise, etc.

I have picked a dozen main names or so from the early pages of this thread and selected them in Idagio. That should give me a good varied starting base (the ones I have picked are : Alain, Walcha, Weinberger, Koopman, Biggs, Fagius, Rubsam, Weir, Rogg, Fouccroulle, Richter, Suzuki, Hurford, etc)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 02, 2021, 03:33:54 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on July 02, 2021, 02:38:07 AM
Thank you for the pointers, Peter, duly noted. I have started on the Passacaglia this morning.

Sorry Oliver, my name is Poul,  not Peter.  :)

Quote from: Papy Oli

I have picked a dozen main names or so from the early pages of this thread and selected them in Idagio. That should give me a good varied starting base (the ones I have picked are : Alain, Walcha, Weinberger, Koopman, Biggs, Fagius, Rubsam, Weir, Rogg, Fouccroulle, Richter, Suzuki, Hurford, etc)

These are excellent choices that will definitely keep you busy for some time. Not only to get to know the music, but also to gain experience with different styles of interpretation - a wide selection being represented here.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Papy Oli on July 02, 2021, 03:54:35 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 02, 2021, 03:33:54 AM
Sorry Oliver, my name is Poul,  not Peter.  :)

Oops, my apologies, Poul  :-[

Quote from: (: premont :) on July 02, 2021, 03:33:54 AM
These are excellent choices that will definitely keep you busy for some time. Not only to get to know the music, but also to gain experience with different styles of interpretation - a wide selection being represented here.

Good to know, that's what I was hoping for :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 02, 2021, 04:47:52 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on July 02, 2021, 03:54:35 AM
Oops, my apologies, Poul  :-[

No offence taken. And you are not the first here to call me Peter.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 02, 2021, 05:04:48 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on July 02, 2021, 04:47:52 AM
No offence taken. And you are not the first here to call me Peter.  :)

In English there's a saying "Don't rob Peter to pay Paul."
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: vers la flamme on July 02, 2021, 02:21:04 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFKxPfpv/image.jpg)

A recent find at the local record store. Sounds excellent! Love the crystal clear sound of the instrument, apparently a Müller organ in Haarlem. Disclaimer: I know nothing about organs. But it's a beautiful instrument, physically and sonically. Good '80s Chandos sound. Any fans of Piet Kee's Bach? As I say, this was a random find.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Elk on July 08, 2021, 04:29:43 AM
I spoiled myself. While I can stream the Kooiman on Aeolus on Spotify in stereo, I like the performances and recordings so much I wanted them in multichannel. The purchase has been worth it. Having 5 channels operating really gives the illusion of being in the church(es). The speakers cannot be located.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 08, 2021, 04:49:49 AM
Quote from: Elk on July 08, 2021, 04:29:43 AM
I spoiled myself. While I can stream the Kooiman on Aeolus on Spotify in stereo, I like the performances and recordings so much I wanted them in multichannel. The purchase has been worth it. Having 5 channels operating really gives the illusion of being in the church(es). The speakers cannot be located.

Yes, that's a big part of the organ experience so I am kind of jealous.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Papy Oli on July 08, 2021, 08:17:08 AM
Following my enquiry above, I have made a few beginner's explorations in the last few days :

* Tried about half of the Art of Fugue by Walcha (Archiv). That takes some getting used to, I prefer the AoF on harpsichord or piano.

* A first listen to about half of Clavier-Übung III by Foccroule. Enjoyed those works. This Foccroulle set so far has quite an appealing sound and pace too and, I found, a clear playing.

* For my simple education, I did the small exercise of listening to the first 20-30 seconds of the famous Toccata BWV 565 on most versions available on Idagio. Now that was "ear-opening" to hear different organ sonorities and how differently it can be played by an organist. It suddenly also made sense why, in this thread, I kept reading Koopman was being fast and adding a lot of embellishments. I still liked his approach enough to listen to his in full. I also ended up listening to the full version by Alain (II). I was impressed by its weightier feel.

* Being intrigued by Koopman's BWV 565, I then listened to more of his toccatas and fugues (on the Archiv set). It is entertaining (for a bit) but I probably listened to too many. His fast pace worn me out eventually :laugh:

* The bulk of my listening, beyond the above, has been to dabble into the various Trio Sonatas. Again, Alain II, Foccroulle and Koopman emerged as my favourites for those. Rubsam (Philips) caught my ear too. I also tried the other Rubsam (Naxos), Walcha, Richter and Weinberger but their sound did not work for me as yet. (note: I am completely absorbed by Alain II in the 4th/5th/6th right now).

Quick question: I have read a few positive comments about the Koopman Novalis 6-CD set in the thread. Is Koopman already that fast in that particular set too please (I can't find samples) ? There are a few cheap sets on Ebay and I just wondered about it. Not sure I would want his full Teldec set if is all that fast either ?

There's obviously more exploration yet to be done on all of them anyway, but it is very satisfying so far.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 08, 2021, 09:50:52 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on July 08, 2021, 08:17:08 AM
Following my enquiry above, I have made a few beginner's explorations in the last few days :

* Tried about half of the Art of Fugue by Walcha (Archiv). That takes some getting used to, I prefer the AoF on harpsichord or piano.

* A first listen to about half of Clavier-Übung III by Foccroule. Enjoyed those works. This Foccroulle set so far has quite an appealing sound and pace too and, I found, a clear playing.

* For my simple education, I did the small exercise of listening to the first 20-30 seconds of the famous Toccata BWV 565 on most versions available on Idagio. Now that was "ear-opening" to hear different organ sonorities and how differently it can be played by an organist. It suddenly also made sense why, in this thread, I kept reading Koopman was being fast and adding a lot of embellishments. I still liked his approach enough to listen to his in full. I also ended up listening to the full version by Alain (II). I was impressed by its weightier feel.

* Being intrigued by Koopman's BWV 565, I then listened to more of his toccatas and fugues (on the Archiv set). It is entertaining (for a bit) but I probably listened to too many. His fast pace worn me out eventually :laugh:

* The bulk of my listening, beyond the above, has been to dabble into the various Trio Sonatas. Again, Alain II, Foccroulle and Koopman emerged as my favourites for those. Rubsam (Philips) caught my ear too. I also tried the other Rubsam (Naxos), Walcha, Richter and Weinberger but their sound did not work for me as yet. (note: I am completely absorbed by Alain II in the 4th/5th/6th right now).

Quick question: I have read a few positive comments about the Koopman Novalis 6-CD set in the thread. Is Koopman already that fast in that particular set too please (I can't find samples) ? There are a few cheap sets on Ebay and I just wondered about it. Not sure I would want his full Teldec set if is all that fast either ?

There's obviously more exploration yet to be done on all of them anyway, but it is very satisfying so far.

Koopman on Novalis has what is, IMO, one the very greatest of organ performances on record, BWV 656 at Ottobeuren, it's vol. 4 of the set. It is particularly slow.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on July 10, 2021, 11:12:28 AM
Quote from: Elk on July 08, 2021, 04:29:43 AM
I spoiled myself. While I can stream the Kooiman on Aeolus on Spotify in stereo, I like the performances and recordings so much I wanted them in multichannel. The purchase has been worth it. Having 5 channels operating really gives the illusion of being in the church(es). The speakers cannot be located.

This is a very fine set. After hearing it several times and getting familiar with Kooiman's Coronata cycle I'm not 100% certain I'd pass blind tests with some of his students vs himself playing. With the caveat that I am no expert and what mostly stands out to me is articulation, legato, tempo, ornamentation, etc.

I should hear this in surround in our home theater. The recorded stereo sound is extremely good; not overly dry or resonant.

Aeolus is one of the best labels I've heard when it comes to recording organ and harpsichord.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 11, 2021, 12:14:53 AM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qMNhL94XzOQ/XwMdmcMuFDI/AAAAAAAAKUY/QEGGpeigKPMbIUuGC2tN41GqoLxwBmMIwCK4BGAYYCw/s320/front.jpg)

This is very well recorded and played in the grand manner, extrovert, secular, alert to the counterpoint, tasteful, imaginative interesting registrations sometimes. The Ahrend organ is clean sounding, pure tones, rather bright and fine. The lack of bass response is a weakness IMO, but others may disagree. This is Bach with atheist enlightenment values. A good find IMO.

https://susato.blogspot.com/search?q=Boyer+
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Elk on July 12, 2021, 02:07:23 AM
Quote from: hvbias on July 10, 2021, 11:12:28 AM
This is a very fine set. After hearing it several times and getting familiar with Kooiman's Coronata cycle I'm not 100% certain I'd pass blind tests with some of his students vs himself playing. With the caveat that I am no expert and what mostly stands out to me is articulation, legato, tempo, ornamentation, etc.

I should hear this in surround in our home theater. The recorded stereo sound is extremely good; not overly dry or resonant.

Aeolus is one of the best labels I've heard when it comes to recording organ and harpsichord.

I rarely watch movies though I have a plasma screen connected to what was a dedicated 2 channel system. I wanted to try multichannel, had the speakers, and bought a second hand Denon receiver to drive them after I was fortunate enough to buy a huge CD collection in which there were some 100 multichannel discs (I have added some 40 more). Initially, I wasn't impressed. Adjusting the receiver is a sharp learning curve, and the sound difference seemed subtle. However, now the openness, the sense of space, and the inability to sense the speakers means I often choose a multichannel disc rather than a stereo one though the performance of a piece still trumps all.

All of which, hvbias, is meant to suggest that, by all means, try the Aeolus on your HT system, presuming your player will unload the SACD layer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Spotted Horses on July 19, 2021, 04:31:21 AM
Continuing my Bach/Organ Journey (going linearly through Alain III, then listening to the same piece in Isoir, Weinberger, Alain II). This time Prelude and Fugue BWV 544 in b minor.

What a majestic piece. The prelude is the very best of dark, ominous Bach (befitting the key). It is in ritornello form, with entries of fugato music building up to an imposing, dissonant climax, from which another fugato emerges. The fugue continues in the same mood, but more straightforward in construction, with a theme consisting largely of linear scale motion.

Alain III was satisfying, a bit clamorous in registration for my taste. Isoir a bit more clear in texture. I started out disliking the sound of the organ in Weinberg's recording, but as the prelude unfolded it became more and more convincing. Finally, Alain II was my clear favorite, beautiful organ sonorities, more clarity of line and rhythmic precision than the other options.

As a final comparison I dug out my recording of the piece in the Liszt transcription, recorded by Pizzaro. Wow! What a difference the sonority of the piano makes (along with Liszt's subtle romanticization of the harmony).

This piece seems to have a lower profile than the "named" prelude and fugue pairs, but I think it may be the best in my book. I am thinking of coming back to it soon, perhaps listening to Rubsam's account on Philips, and Leslie Howard's recording of the Liszt transcription.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51wMcH47R-L.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ISZRRnduL._SL500_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61vt13L5Q4L._SX355_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41bQFoyK-UL._SX466_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41U9ugeRHnL.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Elk on July 20, 2021, 03:27:45 AM
I would have to agree that the Bm is Bach's greatest Prelude and Fugue. Over the years, I have bought recordings simply to hear a different interpretation. It's been a long time since I did a comparison such as yours with it. Maybe again...?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Spotted Horses on July 20, 2021, 03:38:59 AM
Quote from: Elk on July 20, 2021, 03:27:45 AM
I would have to agree that the Bm is Bach's greatest Prelude and Fugue. Over the years, I have bought recordings simply to hear a different interpretation. It's been a long time since I did a comparison such as yours with it. Maybe again...?

I don't really think of it as a comparison. I had this idea, usually I listen to a complex piece several times in a row, why not swap out the recording each time? This way I get familiar with the music, and get to hear all the recordings gathering dust on my shelves (actually my hard disk).

I was thinking of including Rubsam in the mix, but listening to one of these pieces four times seems to be my limit before fatigue sets in.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Elk on July 20, 2021, 07:21:58 AM
I am very familiar with Bach's organ music, its being a favourite of mine for 45 years, so when I compare, it's usually to find which interpretation, or recording quality, I prefer. I once listened to all 8 versions of the Wedge, BWV 548, in Em, I have in succession. It was a bit much, so I know how you feel. I am amazed by reviewers who can compare many, many versions of a work and sound intelligent. I imagine they have taken notes that they can refer to when reviewing a new one. Anyway, they're impressive.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Spotted Horses on July 20, 2021, 01:29:12 PM
For a piece I am very familiar with, to the extent I can bring the music to mind without hearing it, I usually feel satiated after one listen and could never motivate myself to do comparisons. But for a piece I am refamiliarizing myself with I like to listen three or four times, and I find that swapping versions can make the experience more enjoyable.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 20, 2021, 02:45:00 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 20, 2021, 01:29:12 PM
For a piece I am very familiar with, to the extent I can bring the music to mind without hearing it, I usually feel satiated after one listen and could never motivate myself to do comparisons. But for a piece I am refamiliarizing myself with I like to listen three or four times, and I find that swapping versions can make the experience more enjoyable.

Yes, this is mostly what I do too. With music I am familiar with I so to say never do comparisons, but try to get the most of the recording I listen to - and this includes that I do not even think of other recordings along the way. With music I am unfamiliar with - often medieval and renaissance music and 20th century music - it may be instructive to listen to a few different recordings in a row, if more recordings exist, in order to absorb some different aspects of the music already from the first exposure to it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on July 30, 2021, 06:52:21 AM
Samuel Kummer, AOF, anyone? It's on the Hildebrandt organ. This is new. Sorry, I'm exhausted and too lazy to find the image of it. It's reviewed over on musicweb this week.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 30, 2021, 08:11:26 AM
Quote from: milk on July 30, 2021, 06:52:21 AM
Samuel Kummer, AOF, anyone? It's on the Hildebrandt organ. This is new. Sorry, I'm exhausted and too lazy to find the image of it. It's reviewed over on musicweb this week.

On my list. Not acquired yet.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on July 30, 2021, 08:47:46 AM
Quote from: milk on July 30, 2021, 06:52:21 AM
Samuel Kummer, AOF, anyone? It's on the Hildebrandt organ. This is new. Sorry, I'm exhausted and too lazy to find the image of it. It's reviewed over on musicweb this week.

Will listen soon (in fact listening now, sounds . . . no, I'm going to bite my tongue for a while.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on July 30, 2021, 02:03:44 PM
Quote from: milk on July 30, 2021, 06:52:21 AM
Samuel Kummer, AOF, anyone? It's on the Hildebrandt organ. This is new. Sorry, I'm exhausted and too lazy to find the image of it. It's reviewed over on musicweb this week.

I listened to a lot of clips at JPC's site. Excellent registrations, fine phrasing and impressive sound when considering the size of the organ. But I miss the unshakable calm that this music harbours and hear in many contrapuncti instead an impatient unrest of the same nature as one sometimes hears in Chapuis' and Isoirs Bach -playing.However I shall purchase it because of the organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Papy Oli on July 31, 2021, 09:07:09 AM
In case someone is after this particular OOP part cycle, there is a full Lionel Rogg 12-CD set for sale at a bargain price on Ebay UK:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265214845976 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265214845976)

It dropped to £16.50 today from £24.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on July 31, 2021, 07:30:25 PM
Listened to a bunch of different versions of BWV 544 and I thought Enzio Forsblom was the most satisfying:

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273c09234015edf1be8b36092ed)

My least favourite was probably Karl Richter  :-\
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on August 01, 2021, 07:29:44 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 30, 2021, 08:47:46 AM
Will listen soon (in fact listening now, sounds . . . no, I'm going to bite my tongue for a while.)
I'll see if people say I should listen again. I listened a little and thought that it's not my thing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 01, 2021, 01:39:21 PM
Quote from: milk on August 01, 2021, 07:29:44 AM
I'll see if people say I should listen again. I listened a little and thought that it's not my thing.

Not really my thing either. But the organ is exceptionally well recorded.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 01, 2021, 01:42:57 PM
Quote from: Selig on July 31, 2021, 07:30:25 PM
Listened to a bunch of different versions of BWV 544 and I thought Enzio Forsblom was the most satisfying:

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273c09234015edf1be8b36092ed)

My least favourite was probably Karl Richter  :-\

Yes, Forsblom is good and so are the other pieces on the CD (including BWV 546) except for some fortunately rare and very short moments of instability (don't know how to describe it otherwise).

I share your ranking of Karl Richter.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on August 01, 2021, 08:04:52 PM
Quote from: milk on August 01, 2021, 07:29:44 AM
I'll see if people say I should listen again. I listened a little and thought that it's not my thing.

I felt the same initially but I ended up liking it a lot once I warmed up to his speed. The exception is Cpt. 11, which really needs more room to breathe IMO
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on August 01, 2021, 08:06:41 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 01, 2021, 01:42:57 PM
Yes, Forsblom is good and so are the other pieces on the CD (including BWV 546) except for some fortunately rare and very short moments of instability (don't know how to describe it otherwise).

I'll take note of this. Unfortunately 546 is not included on the original issue.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 02, 2021, 01:35:54 AM
Quote from: Selig on August 01, 2021, 08:06:41 PM
I'll take note of this. Unfortunately 546 is not included on the original issue.

I thought of this, which I once owned as LP and digitized BWV 544 and 546 and a few of the chorales.

https://www.discogs.com/J-S-Bach-Enzio-Forsblom-Organ-Music-by-J-S-Bach/release/13262914

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on August 02, 2021, 11:22:51 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 02, 2021, 01:35:54 AM
I thought of this, which I once owned as LP and digitized BWV 544 and 546 and a few of the chorales.

https://www.discogs.com/J-S-Bach-Enzio-Forsblom-Organ-Music-by-J-S-Bach/release/13262914

Interesting, I didn't consider the possibility of multiple recordings. So the 544 I heard was recorded in Frederikshavn, not Ribe

In 1957 Forsblom wrote his thesis about interpreting Bach's organ works. When the libraries open up again in Stockholm I will see what he had to say...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 03, 2021, 02:13:09 AM
Quote from: Selig on August 02, 2021, 11:22:51 PM

In 1957 Forsblom wrote his thesis about interpreting Bach's organ works. When the libraries open up again in Stockholm I will see what he had to say...

I read id thirty-five years ago, by then inspiring reading.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on August 14, 2021, 09:44:42 AM
It is time for me to start a Leipzig chorale journey, but first I need to find some recordings of interest. I would really appreciate it if anyone has suggestions for historical instruments in particular. So far I have noted:

Weinberger/cpo
Foccroulle/Ricercar (recommended in this thread)
Koopman/Teldec
Beekman/Lindenberg (mentioned in this thread by Marc as his #1 choice)

Who else is interesting on historical instruments?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on August 14, 2021, 10:21:34 AM
Quote from: Selig on August 14, 2021, 09:44:42 AM
It is time for me to start a Leipzig chorale journey, but first I need to find some recordings of interest. I would really appreciate it if anyone has suggestions for historical instruments in particular. So far I have noted:

Weinberger/cpo
Foccroulle/Ricercar (recommended in this thread)
Koopman/Teldec
Beekman/Lindenberg (mentioned in this thread by Marc as his #1 choice)

Who else is interesting on historical instruments?

Complete cycle: Olivier Vernet (Ligia).
And probably Ewald Kooiman & pupils (Aeolus) might be of interest - provided you like Silbermann organs, though I've only heard samples.

Additional recommendations:
The 6CD Koopman set on Brilliant.
Clavier-Übung III by Felix Friedrich (Motette), Toccatas by Léon Berben (Ramée), and some individual recordings by Stefan Bleicher and Jean-Charles Ablitzer.

Finally there is the multiple performers complete Hänssler set to consider, with all HIP playing but not exclusively on historical organs. Not a bad place to start.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 14, 2021, 10:23:29 AM
Quote from: Selig on August 14, 2021, 09:44:42 AM
It is time for me to start a Leipzig chorale journey, but first I need to find some recordings of interest. I would really appreciate it if anyone has suggestions for historical instruments in particular. So far I have noted:

Weinberger/cpo
Foccroulle/Ricercar (recommended in this thread)
Koopman/Teldec
Beekman/Lindenberg (mentioned in this thread by Marc as his #1 choice)

Who else is interesting on historical instruments?

My favourite at the moment is Pieter Van Dijk at Alkmaar.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 14, 2021, 01:41:13 PM
Quote from: Selig on August 14, 2021, 09:44:42 AM
It is time for me to start a Leipzig chorale journey, but first I need to find some recordings of interest. I would really appreciate it if anyone has suggestions for historical instruments in particular. So far I have noted:

Who else is interesting on historical instruments?

Most recordings use modern organs but here are a few more more than listenable recordings on restored baroque organs:

Cristina Garcia Banegas
Daniel Chorzempa
Kåre Nordstoga
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on August 14, 2021, 05:55:35 PM
Quote from: Que on August 14, 2021, 10:21:34 AM
Additional recommendations:
The 6CD Koopman set on Brilliant.
Clavier-Übung III by Felix Friedrich (Motette), Toccatas by Léon Berben (Ramée), and some individual recordings by Stefan Bleicher and Jean-Charles Ablitzer.

This list is suspiciously similar to the original post of this thread $:)

So I have made note of these before, but now I will make them high priority!

I like exploring Bach one "chunk" at a time though, and right now my focus is the Leipzig chorales BWV 651-668.

Quote from: Que on August 14, 2021, 10:21:34 AM
Finally there is the multiple performers complete Hänssler set to consider, with all HIP playing but not exclusively on historical organs. Not a bad place to start.

Ah, I forgot Hänssler! Bryndorf on the Wagner organ must go on the list.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on August 14, 2021, 05:59:51 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 14, 2021, 10:23:29 AM
My favourite at the moment is Pieter Van Dijk at Alkmaar.

Definitely interesting, thank you.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on August 14, 2021, 06:08:22 PM
I'm not sure which organ he used, but I like Rubsam's recording (on Naxos).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on August 14, 2021, 06:39:03 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 14, 2021, 01:41:13 PM
Most recordings use modern organs

I'm interested in those too. Here is my Leipzig chorale priority list for modern instruments. Let me know if you have any suggestions that are non-cycle or part of a cycle but sold separately!

Rubsam/Naxos
Herrick/Hyperion
Lagacé/Analekta
(maybe) Lippincott (because I like her Art of Fugue)


Quote from: (: premont :) on August 14, 2021, 01:41:13 PM
here are a few more more than listenable recordings on restored baroque organs:

Cristina Garcia Banegas
Daniel Chorzempa
Kåre Nordstoga

Thank you! I had written down Chorzempa but wasn't sure if he belonged in the PI pile. The organ seems 19th century, but in baroque style?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on August 14, 2021, 06:49:06 PM
Quote from: JBS on August 14, 2021, 06:08:22 PM
I'm not sure which organ he used, but I like Rubsam's recording (on Naxos).

Organ built 1985 in Worcester, Massachusetts. I've heard some Rubsam that I like a lot, like his trio sonatas, so this interests me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on August 14, 2021, 07:24:12 PM
Quote from: Selig on August 14, 2021, 06:49:06 PM

Organ built 1985 in Worcester, Massachusetts. I've heard some Rubsam that I like a lot, like his trio sonatas, so this interests me.

Interesting. I didn't have the Chorales recording handy, but I happen to have the CD with three of the trio sonatas on the table near me, and that was recorded in the Martinikerk of Groningen. I didn't realize he hopped all over the place for the Naxos recordings.

IIRC all his recent recordings have been done in what is now his home turf, Indiana.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 14, 2021, 08:10:27 PM
Walcha used the Cappel Schnitger for his 1952 recording. Craig Humber recorded them for MDG on the Freiburg Silberman. Pierre Bourdon used the St Maximin. Werner Jacob used a bunch of different organs for his 18 chorales.

Maybe the most imaginative set of Leipzig chorales I know, from the point of view of interpretation, is Bert Matter at Zutphen. The recording quality is not bad. The performance has lost its lustre for me, I don't enjoy it as much as others.

I'm very keen on Chorzempa's recording, but this is obviously a matter of taste.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on August 14, 2021, 10:54:08 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 14, 2021, 10:23:29 AM
My favourite at the moment is Pieter Van Dijk at Alkmaar.

Pricey, but seems definitely worth looking into.  :)
By absence of the availability of Kooiman's cycle on Coronata, I stil don't have a  cycle in "typically Dutch" style.

Quote from: Selig on August 14, 2021, 05:55:35 PM
This list is suspiciously similar to the original post of this thread $:)

So I have made note of these before, but now I will make them high priority!

Old favourites never die...  :D
I'm still thankfull to premont for providing that list, from which I forgot to mention the Martin Sander recording.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on August 14, 2021, 11:54:35 PM
Quote from: Selig on August 14, 2021, 06:49:06 PM

Organ built 1985 in Worcester, Massachusetts. I've heard some Rubsam that I like a lot, like his trio sonatas, so this interests me.

The trio sonatas are sui generis, he told me he recorded all six through a single night.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on August 15, 2021, 02:01:05 PM
Quote from: Que on August 14, 2021, 10:54:08 PM
By absence of the availability of Kooiman's cycle on Coronata, I stil don't have a  cycle in "typically Dutch" style.

What do you consider the Dutch style? From my small sample size of Kooiman and Bram Beekman I would characterize them as very sharply articulated. Both of them have that "heavenly" quality when the music calls for it. I desperately want that Piet Lindenberg reissue of Beekman's cycle to come to fruition (hello Traverso if you see this and have an update! ;D )
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on August 15, 2021, 11:49:42 PM
Late to the party, but hopefully not too late:

I think this (Martin Souter) is an excellent Leipzig Chorales, clear and languid playing on a beautiful organ.
(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music1/v4/fb/32/fa/fb32fac3-f0f6-fc07-58b0-bea438a483ba/786461000727.jpg/486x486bb.png)

He never recorded the complete Leipzig chorales, but what we have from Piet Wiersma (around half of them I think) is of course exceptional.
On the other (fast) side, I actually like Koopman from his 1999 Integrale a lot, feels like a joyride.
Beekman's Leipzigs on the Aa kerk organ are also top of the line, although of course you know those already. Kooiman was less interesting to me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on August 15, 2021, 11:51:46 PM
Quote from: hvbias on August 15, 2021, 02:01:05 PM
What do you consider the Dutch style? From my small sample size of Kooiman and Bram Beekman I would characterize them as very sharply articulated. Both of them have that "heavenly" quality when the music calls for it. I desperately want that Piet Lindenberg reissue of Beekman's cycle to come to fruition (hello Traverso if you see this and have an update! ;D )

Relatively austere but maybe with flamboyance deep beneath the surface, beautiful and no-nonsense phrasing. Jacques van Oortmerssen also comes to mind.

Re: complete cycles (or in progress), Cor Ardesch! Another very Dutch player.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 16, 2021, 01:19:28 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on August 15, 2021, 11:51:46 PM
Relatively austere but maybe with flamboyance deep beneath the surface, beautiful and no-nonsense phrasing. Jacques van Oortmerssen also comes to mind.

And maybe Leo van Doeselaar even more. I consider him to be the greatest living exponent of the Dutch style.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on August 16, 2021, 07:16:04 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on August 15, 2021, 11:49:42 PM
I think this (Martin Souter) is an excellent Leipzig Chorales, clear and languid playing on a beautiful organ.

I will happily include this on the list.

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on August 15, 2021, 11:49:42 PM
He never recorded the complete Leipzig chorales, but what we have from Piet Wiersma (around half of them I think) is of course exceptional.

In my previous Bach chunk "journeys", Wiersma has been a standout, for example in the trio sonatas. But this time it's only 6/18 recorded :( (Unless there are more Wiersma recordings out there than I realize.) Maybe the most incomplete chunk of his cycle.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on August 16, 2021, 10:56:27 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 16, 2021, 01:19:28 AM
And maybe Leo van Doeselaar even more. I consider him to be the greatest living exponent of the Dutch style.

Leo van Doeselaar is interesting, when you watch him he makes lots of movements as if he is working very hard (while a lot of organists dislike that and there's the idea that you should sit still as much as possible at the console, I don't find it an issue) but his musical style isn't as radical or flamboyant as that would suggest.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 16, 2021, 02:33:41 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on August 16, 2021, 10:56:27 AM
Leo van Doeselaar is interesting, when you watch him he makes lots of movements as if he is working very hard (while a lot of organists dislike that and there's the idea that you should sit still as much as possible at the console, I don't find it an issue) but his musical style isn't as radical or flamboyant as that would suggest.

I use to call his style titanic, rather than flamboyant. There is something extremely forceful and energetic but still very disciplined about his Bach playing , no matter how he sits at the console.

I suppose, you know this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj5KzWtY3IY

as well as his Bach recordings from Alkmaar.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on August 16, 2021, 03:20:28 PM
Quote from: Selig on August 16, 2021, 07:16:04 AM
I will happily include this on the list.

Considering Souter, I found him a bit sweet.

I own Helga Schauerte's Leipzig chorales, but haven't listened to them yet, the same as to  Jörg Halubek. Generally I find Schauerte's Bach interesting.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on August 17, 2021, 05:27:03 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 16, 2021, 03:20:28 PM
Considering Souter, I found him a bit sweet.

I own Helga Schauerte's Leipzig chorales, but haven't listened to them yet, the same as to  Jörg Halubek. Generally I find Schauerte's Bach interesting.

Schauerte's BWV 542 is quite interesting, the organ she plays it on is in quite a meanish tuning so there are some very naughty dissonances in there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZCNth6aR5U
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on August 18, 2021, 10:37:55 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on August 17, 2021, 05:27:03 PM
Schauerte's BWV 542 is quite interesting, the organ she plays it on is in quite a meanish tuning so there are some very naughty dissonances in there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZCNth6aR5U

Coincidentally I heard this organ for the first time yesterday, when looking up recordings by Andreas Liebig. He plays BWV 648 & 733 there, and a nice obscurity, this ricercar by Carolus Luython: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzu8h_NRb2k
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on November 11, 2021, 07:17:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr_jK-fzglM

Van Doeselaar 552

!!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on December 02, 2021, 03:04:04 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM
Hubert Meister 1 CD for Motette on the Silbermann organs in Grosshartmannsdorf and Forchheim (contains the triosonates).

Going to order this, and I'm considering the other trio sonatas recording which is also available on Motette, by Wolfgang Baumgratz. Can you comment on it, if you know it?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on December 02, 2021, 03:18:58 PM
Quote from: Selig on December 02, 2021, 03:04:04 PM
Going to order this, and I'm considering the other trio sonatas recording which is also available on Motette, by Wolfgang Baumgratz. Can you comment on it, if you know it?

I don't know Wolfgang Baumgratz' triosonatas. But Hubert Meister's triosonatas - likewise on Motette - on Silbermann organs is very worthwhile.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 07, 2021, 02:27:00 PM
(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/885470023083.jpg)
(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/885470020860.jpg)

New double-double CD release by Jörg Halubek, featuring among other things the complete Orgelbüchlein and partitas.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on December 07, 2021, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 07, 2021, 02:27:00 PM
(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/885470023083.jpg)
(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/885470020860.jpg)

New double-double CD release by Jörg Halubek, featuring among other things the complete Orgelbüchlein and partitas.

The geographical co-ordinates mark the organs?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on December 07, 2021, 06:44:13 PM
Exactly! Slightly more interesting than "volume 1" "volume 6" etc. I guess
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on January 31, 2022, 09:33:51 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 14, 2021, 01:41:13 PM
Cristina Garcia Banegas

Calm and colourful but what I like the most is: she makes BWV 660 sound more hellish than any other version I've heard so far.

Hopefully I warm up to Schauerte, she's interesting but not as immediate and lovely as Banegas
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on March 22, 2022, 02:25:51 AM
How I'm feeling right now:

651 Foccroulle
652 ??
653 Van Doeselaar
654 Matter
655 Koopman Ottobeuren
656 Koopman Ottobeuren
657 Walcha Cappel
658 Foccroulle
659 Walcha Strasbourg
660 Banegas
661 Kraft
662 Koopman s'Hertogenbosch
663 Alain II
664 Beekman
665 Banegas
666 Leonhardt
667 Chorzempa
668 Beekman

I wonder if anyone else has struggled with the lengthy 652 or has a particular favourite recording for this work. I may not have the attention span for it right now.

Haven't heard Pieter van Dijk yet, looking forward to it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 22, 2022, 03:14:20 AM
Here's a 652 I like, just to make it fun I've made it a blind test!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fcAs7WkavG64RUs-vUFMLS2AlNeXCr_d/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: milk on March 22, 2022, 03:31:08 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 07, 2021, 02:27:00 PM
(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/885470023083.jpg)
(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/885470020860.jpg)

New double-double CD release by Jörg Halubek, featuring among other things the complete Orgelbüchlein and partitas.
Should I try this again? It seemed colorless.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on March 22, 2022, 05:05:50 AM
Quote from: milk on March 22, 2022, 03:31:08 AM
Should I try this again? It seemed colorless.

Try the one at Ansbach maybe, that instrument is anything but colorless
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on March 22, 2022, 05:19:05 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 22, 2022, 03:14:20 AM
Here's a 652 I like, just to make it fun I've made it a blind test!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fcAs7WkavG64RUs-vUFMLS2AlNeXCr_d/view?usp=sharing

Gorgeous, my first thought was it sounds like the Netherlands, it is surely Wiersma........ The blind aspect probably made me focus better.

Do his CDs include registrations in the notes? That would make me want to try to collect them.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on March 22, 2022, 06:25:27 AM
Quote from: Selig on March 22, 2022, 05:19:05 AM


Do his CDs include registrations in the notes?

That, I can't say.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 24, 2022, 12:31:23 AM
Quote from: Selig on March 22, 2022, 05:19:05 AM
Gorgeous, my first thought was it sounds like the Netherlands, it is surely Wiersma........ The blind aspect probably made me focus better.

Do his CDs include registrations in the notes? That would make me want to try to collect them.

His style really is unmistakable.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 24, 2022, 12:32:27 AM
Quote from: Selig on March 22, 2022, 05:05:50 AM
Try the one at Ansbach maybe, that instrument is anything but colorless

... hard to make up for colorless playing.

That being said I like his BWV 564 at Hamburg, but that's just because of the superficial thrill of all the 32's and stuff.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 29, 2022, 12:23:36 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 22, 2022, 03:14:20 AM
Here's a 652 I like, just to make it fun I've made it a blind test!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fcAs7WkavG64RUs-vUFMLS2AlNeXCr_d/view?usp=sharing

Most organists do not know what to do with this long and somewhat monotonous choral prelude and therefore rush through it to get on to the next piece. Your blind listening version is exceptionally calm and meditative and rewarding to listen to. It's easier to say who the organist isn't than to say who it is. Once I have excluded all those I know - and there are many - there is no one left. Therefore, I do not think I have ever heard this version before. As to the performance style of the organist I need more different works from his hands and feet to say anything about it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 29, 2022, 11:22:13 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 29, 2022, 12:23:36 PM
Most organists do not know what to do with this long and somewhat monotonous choral prelude and therefore rush through it to get on to the next piece. Your blind listening version is exceptionally calm and meditative and rewarding to listen to. It's easier to say who the organist isn't than to say who it is. Once I have excluded all those I know - and there are many - there is no one left. Therefore, I do not think I have ever heard this version before. As to the performance style of the organist I need more different works from his hands and feet to say anything about it.

The answer is in post 3297!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 30, 2022, 01:37:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 29, 2022, 11:22:13 PM
The answer is in post 3297!

Overly cryptic. The only hint is that the organist may be Dutch, which already was likely. But in the Netherlands, each house has its own resident organist, so the possibilities are legion.

My experience is that BWV 652 only gets recorded by organists who make a full integral or intend to do so, and this may limit the possibilities as to who it is, but this is also true of more Dutch organists whose recordings are almost impossible to get hold of because they are made by small local Dutch labels, eg. Cor Ardesch and Pieter van Dijk. I have no particular impression of neither of these two.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on April 30, 2022, 02:07:30 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 30, 2022, 01:37:23 AM
Overly cryptic. The only hint is that the organist may be Dutch, which already was likely. But in the Netherlands, each house has its own resident organist, so the possibilities are legion.

My experience is that BWV 652 only gets recorded by organists who make a full integral or intend to do so, and this may limit the possibilities as to who it is, but this is also true of more Dutch organists whose recordings are almost impossible to get hold of because they are made by small local Dutch labels, eg. Cor Ardesch and Pieter van Dijk. I have no particular impression of neither of these two.

Wiersma!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 30, 2022, 03:35:29 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 30, 2022, 02:07:30 AM
Wiersma!

Ooh, well. I wasn't aware that this was one of the few Leipzig chorales he had recorded and I haven't listened to it since I posted it some years ago.

On the other hand I can tell that BWV 652 was recorded on the Hinsz-Schnitger-Freytag organ of the Hervormde Kerk, Leens, NL in 1999. The organ is an 8 feet organ which has got 27 stops on two manuals and pedal tuned a half note above "normal" pitch and was restored by the van Vulpen brothers in 1968. The used stops for BWV 652 are (according to Wiersma's notes in the booklet):

HW:  Roerfluit 8' , Speelfluit 4' and Vox Humana 8'
RP:  Fluitdous 8', Holpijp 4, Nazard 3' and Dulciaan 8'
P: Bourdon 16' and Prestant 8'
Tremulant
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Selig on April 30, 2022, 07:25:56 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 30, 2022, 03:35:29 AM
Ooh, well. I wasn't aware that this was one of the few Leipzig chorales he had recorded and I haven't listened to it since I posted it some years ago.

On the other hand I can tell that BWV 652 was recorded on the Hinsz-Schnitger-Freytag organ of the Hervormde Kerk, Leens, NL in 1999. The organ is an 8 feet organ which has got 27 stops on two manuals and pedal tuned a half note above "normal" pitch and was restored by the van Vulpen brothers in 1968. The used stops for BWV 652 are (according to Wiersma's notes in the booklet):

HW:  Roerfluit 8' , Speelfluit 4' and Vox Humana 8'
RP:  Fluitdous 8', Holpijp 4, Nazard 3' and Dulciaan 8'
P: Bourdon 16' and Prestant 8'
Tremulant

Thanks for posting the stops! You are lucky to have this difficult to find CD. I had posted the name in beige color to not spoil the fun for other guessers, but the conventional choice may be the easier-to-see white  :-[

Interesting observation about organists only recording this chorale when the "integral" requires it. The only non-cycle example I could think of was Robert Clark playing the Brombaugh organ in Springfield Illinois.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 30, 2022, 09:44:03 AM
Quote from: Selig on April 30, 2022, 07:25:56 AM
Thanks for posting the stops! You are lucky to have this difficult to find CD. I had posted the name in beige color to not spoil the fun for other guessers, but the conventional choice may be the easier-to-see white  :-[

Interesting observation about organists only recording this chorale when the "integral" requires it. The only non-cycle example I could think of was Robert Clark playing the Brombaugh organ in Springfield Illinois.

I used the word integral to point to a complete set of Leipzig Chorales, not to a complete Bach organ music set. I admit I was unclear. There are many who have recorded all the Leipzig chorales as a set (eg. Ghielmi, van Laar, O'Donnel and Bouchard), but if individual chorales are recorded it's always the most popular of these, and BWV 652 has never been that popular.         
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 25, 2022, 10:27:30 AM
Well Kooiman Coronata joins the ranks of organists who have no idea what to do with 652.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 25, 2022, 12:35:42 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 25, 2022, 10:27:30 AM
Well Kooiman Coronata joins the ranks of organists who have no idea what to do with 652.

But it is a difficult piece to bring to life. Long and homogenous, some would say monotonous. I agree that Wiersma makes the best of it, but from the top of my head I can't think of others who make me want a relisten.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: vers la flamme on September 20, 2022, 04:35:31 PM
I would love to have a complete recording of all the Trio Sonatas on organ. Does such a thing exist?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on September 20, 2022, 05:33:48 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 20, 2022, 04:35:31 PM
I would love to have a complete recording of all the Trio Sonatas on organ. Does such a thing exist?
Amazon lists a few. The names I recognize are  Simon Preston, E Power Biggs, Ton Koopman, and Christopher Herrick.
I have Herrick's Neuminster Chorales CD, but the rest of his cycle was OOP by the time I discovered it, about 20 years ago.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 20, 2022, 08:48:11 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 20, 2022, 04:35:31 PM
I would love to have a complete recording of all the Trio Sonatas on organ. Does such a thing exist?

I think all of these are tasty performances  in decent sound on decent organs,  and are available as individual discs. That'll keep you busy.

Simon Reichert
Wolfgang Rübsam (Naxos, my favourite, by far)
Kei Koito
Rainer Goede
Hubert Meister
Christopher Herrick
Helmut Walcha
Marie Claire Alain
Ton Koopman
Wolfgang Stockmeier
Daniel Chorzempa
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jo498 on September 21, 2022, 12:42:53 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 20, 2022, 04:35:31 PM
I would love to have a complete recording of all the Trio Sonatas on organ. Does such a thing exist?
John Butt on harmonia mundi (some of their cheapo series with a colorful cover) was the one that made me appreciate the pieces when I didn't care much for organ sounds. (My first recording and one I still like is Power Biggs on pedal harpsichord (Sony)). Since then I have come to appreciate also slower and more organ like or traditional recordings; the music is really hard to destroy, I think.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 21, 2022, 10:52:39 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 20, 2022, 08:48:11 PM
I think all of these are tasty performances  in decent sound on decent organs,  and are available as individual discs. That'll keep you busy.

Simon Reichert
Wolfgang Rübsam (Naxos, my favourite, by far)
Kei Koito
Rainer Goede
Hubert Meister
Christopher Herrick
Helmut Walcha
Marie Claire Alain
Ton Koopman
Wolfgang Stockmeier
Daniel Chorzempa

Nice list. Good to see Simon Reichert on the list. He ought to be better known.

I feel tempted to add:

Simon Preston
Heinrich Gurtner
Joan Lippincott
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: aukhawk on September 22, 2022, 06:59:21 AM
Kare Nordstoga
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 22, 2022, 08:15:33 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 22, 2022, 06:59:21 AM
Kare Nordstoga

First set (Simax) or second set (LAWO) or both?

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 22, 2022, 08:22:00 AM
I dug out some old friends last night, with great pleasure. One was, for obvious reasons, Daniel Chorzempa's trio sonatas. The other, for less obvious reasons, was Jens Christensen's AoF.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 23, 2022, 02:27:07 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 22, 2022, 08:22:00 AM
I dug out some old friends last night, with great pleasure. One was, for obvious reasons, Daniel Chorzempa's trio sonatas. The other, for less obvious reasons, was Jens Christensen's AoF.

Jens E. Christensen's AoF is like no other. I have to be in the right mood to listen to it all at once.

Concerning old friends: I would like to add Bjørn Boysen's trio sonatas to the list
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: staxomega on September 23, 2022, 02:33:31 PM
Speaking of old friends I was listening to Gerd Zacher play AoF earlier this afternoon. Among my favorite JSB organ albums.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 23, 2022, 11:55:51 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 23, 2022, 02:27:07 PM
Jens E. Christensen's AoF is like no other. I have to be in the right mood to listen to it all at once.


I just reminded myself that France Orgue says that Christensen recorded the trio sonatas. We once talked about it, and you thought it may not be true and that you may write to him and ask. Did you do it? I like the Copenhagen organ very much: sweet and noble.

I played the AoF again - it is one of my favourites. Almost mystical, ecstatic.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 24, 2022, 01:19:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 23, 2022, 11:55:51 PM
I just reminded myself that France Orgue says that Christensen recorded the trio sonatas. We once talked about it, and you thought it may not be true and that you may write to him and ask. Did you do it? I like the Copenhagen organ very much: sweet and noble.

I played the AoF again - it is one of my favourites. Almost mystical, ecstatic.

Yes. He answered me, that he never have recorded any triosonatas for Kontrapunkt. The only triosonata he has recorded is no.6 for Helikon (also on the organ in Vor Frelsers Kirke, Copenhagen), here:

http://www.helikonrecords.dk/1072.htm

which also is the sonically most successful recording of this organ I have heard.

P.S: You are probably aware, that Chapuis recorded all the triosonatas on this organ, and that Rogg recorded the sonatas 1,2,3 & 4 there (his latest recording for EMI).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2022, 06:06:52 AM
Ah, I've written to Helikon to see if they'll supply it in London. It doesn't seem to be available on any of the usual distribution channels. Thanx.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2022, 03:29:16 AM
I listened to Jens Christensen's CU3 last night, and somehow felt it didn't have the same magic as AoF. I particularly didn't enjoy his way with the manualiter chorales;  the pedaliter Kyrie (s) and Christe were exceptional I thought. All subject to revision of course.  I'll listen to the orgelbuchlein later I think.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 26, 2022, 07:47:12 AM
And Helikon are a nice old fashioned company, a pleasure to deal with.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on September 26, 2022, 10:28:07 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 26, 2022, 07:47:12 AM
And Helikon are a nice old fashioned company, a pleasure to deal with.

Yes, indeed. It's a very small company, the director and the engineer being the same person.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 01, 2022, 11:29:42 AM
Quote from: hvbias on September 23, 2022, 02:33:31 PM
Speaking of old friends I was listening to Gerd Zacher play AoF earlier this afternoon. Among my favorite JSB organ albums.

Noted and I will revisit it. My biggest beef with it is that it leaves out the best music in AoF!  The complicated canons.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 08, 2022, 01:18:51 AM
A predictably unpredictable and original trio sonata from Jens E Christensen.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on October 08, 2022, 02:23:03 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 08, 2022, 01:18:51 AM
A predictably unpredictable and original trio sonata from Jens E Christensen.

:)

Yes, a pity he didn't record them all.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Elk on October 12, 2022, 02:37:46 PM
I feel fortunate to have just bought the complete Kooiman's first recordings for KMK, LPs, in mint condition. I post here because some of you feel my fortune. I already own and play, in 5 channels, his, and others, Aeolus set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on October 15, 2022, 11:43:27 AM
Quote from: Elk on October 12, 2022, 02:37:46 PM
I feel fortunate to have just bought the complete Kooiman's first recordings for KMK, LPs, in mint condition. I post here because some of you feel my fortune. I already own and play, in 5 channels, his, and others, Aeolus set.

https://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Kooiman.htm

Congratulations.   :)    A rare set, even rarer than the Coronata set. So rare that I have never known anyone who have heard it. I wonder how it compares to the Coronata set and the later Aeolus set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Elk on October 16, 2022, 04:48:14 PM
Reviews to follow. My first impression of the 4 sides of volume 1 is that there is an ease of performance, not relaxed, but somehow intimate, conversational. The man I bought the set from brought them with him when he immigrated to Canada. I will learn more about him Wednesday when he visits to listen to some organ music on my big 5.0 system. He may yet have some other wonders in his collection.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 17, 2022, 01:20:03 AM
We all await the needle drops with bated breath.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 17, 2022, 11:45:10 PM
Unusual BWV 527 here from Jolanda Zwoferink

https://open.spotify.com/album/1eSFGe1GZy1igUURcVFrzw
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on October 22, 2022, 11:14:33 AM
New release, sounds good to me

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM3MzM5OC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjQzNzExNDd9)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on October 22, 2022, 11:54:43 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 22, 2022, 11:14:33 AM
New release, sounds good to me

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM3MzM5OC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjQzNzExNDd9)

Not quite new (2020), but very good. Great historical organs (St.Jacobi, Lübeck) and a competent organist. My only quibble is, that the programming mostly includes lesser Bach works. Gast has made another equally recommendable recording using the same organs:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8001107--the-organ-in-st-jakobi-lubeck
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 09, 2022, 12:11:07 AM
Quote from: hvbias on September 23, 2022, 02:33:31 PM
Speaking of old friends I was listening to Gerd Zacher play AoF earlier this afternoon. Among my favorite JSB organ albums.

Excellent - I've been meaning to get it ever since you said that six weeks ago, and I just did. It's a great success I think - interpretively, organologically and in terms of sound capture. It's such a shame he didn't record the big canons.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on November 09, 2022, 12:28:01 AM
(https://e.snmc.io/i/1200/s/5056bf05ac7959ac875f8a8fdb2d567a/10135201)

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/12/000151621.pdf

Paris Foyer de l'Âme, orgue Quentin Blumenroeder (2009)  - it's got a big tight bass, and is well caught on the CD. Alard plays in a most attractive way - lively. The chorales are stuck on the end of each piece of organ music - so they're not easily avoidable. The choir seems excellent to me. Alard comments

I would like to thank all the singers and their conductors, Marine Fribourg and Émilie Fleury, for agreeing to take part in this unique experience. It was a discovery for all of us, which we shared during the recording sessions. We came to realise that the chorale preludes which make up the Orgelbüchlein (a 'little organ book' unjustly regarded as a set of didactic exercises for beginners) gain a great deal in meaning and expression if they are sung alongside the chorales they introduce. Several musical choices now seem completely natural to me, notably those related to tempo, registration, and figuralisms illustrating the sacred texts. These factors have enabled us to reveal the significance of these chorale preludes, too long 'disconnected' from their popular origins for the most part, even though Martin Luther insisted on that very point in the early sixteenth century.


And listening to it he may just be right to be so enthusiastic - this is defo the high point of the survey so far.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on December 11, 2022, 12:19:27 PM
BWV 721 played by one person using a cornet and organ at the same time. That one person is no less than Gerard van Reenen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEqkj8hHvJA&ab_channel=GerardvanReenen
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2023, 01:10:27 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on August 17, 2019, 09:36:26 AMWinsemius, I meant. Toccata records are hard to find outside NL.

Hello! Paging the squid.  Are you there?

Anyway, Winsemius 547 excellent! (4 years late.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2023, 10:11:44 AM
Very animated talk by Winsemius on 541

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8TdvbLV_bM&ab_channel=NetherlandsBachSociety
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on February 09, 2023, 12:29:18 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on August 18, 2019, 04:49:47 PMSpeaking of way too mannered playing/speaking, Jacobsen reminds me of the hilariously pompous French recitation at the start of Baumont's Chambonnieres Pièces de clavessin recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRZqQXupvaQ


Ha! That's so bad it's good.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Elk on February 15, 2023, 04:06:51 AM
Last Sunday on CBC Radio, on a program entitled This Is My Music, Angela Hewitt played her choices, one of which was Bernard Lagacé's performance of Bach'S Gm Fugue from the Great, BWV 542. It prompted me to listen to all fourteen versions I have: Walcha, HM Rogg, KMK Kooiman, Aeolis Kooiman, Herrick, Richter, Murray, Naxos Rubsam, Biggs, Kee, Kästner, Hurford, Bardon, and Higgs- for me fun.

The KMK Kooiman was very good. His later Aeolis sounded to me better in stereo, rather disconcerting in surround sound. The 1954 Richter was surprisingly excellent, despite its dated sound. The Kee too was excellent. My favourite, though, was Herrick, not only for his performance, but the recorded sound- magnificent!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Anooj on April 08, 2023, 10:10:41 AM
What's the consensus on Marie-Claire Alain's first cycle? It's barely been mentioned in this thread.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 09, 2023, 12:35:07 AM
Quote from: Anooj on April 08, 2023, 10:10:41 AMWhat's the consensus on Marie-Claire Alain's first cycle? It's barely been mentioned in this thread.

I heard most of it in my early youth in the late1960es. By then I found it a bit earthbound and workman-like and preferred others like Heiller, Walcha and Kraft. It was unavailable for a long time and wasn't released on CD until recently. To day I rate it higher - and even higher the more I listen to it. Particularly I find the playing of the chorale-bound works most often meaningful and expressive while the "free" works are played in a more unobligated playful way. Being Danish myself I find of course her choice of organs very interesting. Generally I think she was at her peak when she made her second cycle which I find more successful than her first - also because of the higher degree of historical information of the playing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on April 09, 2023, 11:48:00 PM
Quote from: Anooj on April 08, 2023, 10:10:41 AMWhat's the consensus on Marie-Claire Alain's first cycle? It's barely been mentioned in this thread.

I don't think there is anyone here more qualified to give his assessment in this matter than our premont!  :D

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 12, 2023, 02:52:59 PM
Any artistic or historical merit in this box set? Mostly Eastern-European organs in the set?


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51AmJk7W5dL._SX466_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: vers la flamme on April 12, 2023, 03:36:22 PM
These are the Bach organ CDs I've enjoyed in the past 12 months:

(https://i.postimg.cc/sgdGZw6p/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/PNGJY54t/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0N5YbVjV/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FGZb6qx/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZZhty1J/image.png)

I wonder if any of the organ aficionados among us find any merit in these performances. I know next to nothing about the instrument or repertoire except that I enjoy it immensely from time to time.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 13, 2023, 12:57:40 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 12, 2023, 02:52:59 PMAny artistic or historical merit in this box set? Mostly Eastern-European organs in the set?


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51AmJk7W5dL._SX466_.jpg)
Even if the organs weren't "historically" restored at the time of recording I think the Gottfried Silbermann sound shines through better than expected. The organists are not that HIP and represent the typical 1950-60 transitional school, but their artistic choices are well-considered and I would characterize most of them as great performing artists. The recorded sound is good for it's time. All in all I find the set both musically and historically interesting. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on April 13, 2023, 01:14:44 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 12, 2023, 03:36:22 PMThese are the Bach organ CDs I've enjoyed in the past 12 months:

(https://i.postimg.cc/sgdGZw6p/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/PNGJY54t/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0N5YbVjV/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FGZb6qx/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZZhty1J/image.png)

I wonder if any of the organ aficionados among us find any merit in these performances. I know next to nothing about the instrument or repertoire except that I enjoy it immensely from time to time.

Wolfgang Rübsam is to me always interesting listening. He has indeed his own way with the music, but generally it's illuminating if you have got the patience to listen carefully a couple of times.

Matteo Messori's informed playing is also always interesting listening. Well, in the CÜ III I think he drags a bit, but again if you have the patience to listen carefully you will become rewarded. I shall use the occation to recommend his excellent Art of Fugue recording (on harpsichord).

Piet Kee made a handful of Bach recordings on great Dutch baroque  organs. The one on your picture is IMO the weakest of them (displaying a strange lack of concentration in his playing) but the others are wery fine.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: vers la flamme on April 13, 2023, 04:46:18 AM
Quote from: premont on April 13, 2023, 01:14:44 AMWolfgang Rübsam is to me always interesting listening. He has indeed his own way with the music, but generally it's illuminating if you have got the patience to listen carefully a couple of times.

Matteo Messori's informed playing is also always interesting listening. Well, in the CÜ III I think he drags a bit, but again if you have the patience to listen carefully you will become rewarded. I shall use the occation to recommend his excellent Art of Fugue recording (on harpsichord).

Piet Kee made a handful of Bach recordings on great Dutch baroque  organs. The one on your picture is IMO the weakest of them (displaying a strange lack of concentration in his playing) but the others are wery fine.



I like the idea of listening to Bach on historic Dutch organs, I will try and find some more of the series. I do have Messori's Art of Fugue, it is indeed excellent. Maybe I'll listen to it tonight after work. Thanks for your reply!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DavidW on April 13, 2023, 05:56:19 AM
I like Rubsam, but he is an acquired taste.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 13, 2023, 09:01:01 AM
Quote from: premont on April 13, 2023, 12:57:40 AMEven if the organs weren't "historically" restored at the time of recording I think the Gottfried Silbermann sound shines through better than expected. The organists are not that HIP and represent the typical 1950-60 transitional school, but their artistic choices are well-considered and I would characterize most of them as great performing artists. The recorded sound is good for it's time. All in all I find the set both musically and historically interesting. 

Sounds good! Thank you for the insights. I will get it when the price is low!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 04, 2023, 06:34:39 AM
Nice effort and nice playing, but organs maynot be ideal instruments for the French Suites.


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51KjjlO5EeL._UX500_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 04, 2023, 07:44:57 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 04, 2023, 06:34:39 AMNice effort and nice playing, but organs maynot be ideal instruments for the French Suites.


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51KjjlO5EeL._UX500_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)

Completely agreed. To me the French suites are intimate domestic clavichord music.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 04, 2023, 08:09:06 AM
Quote from: premont on May 04, 2023, 07:44:57 AMCompletely agreed. To me the French suites are intimate domestic clavichord music.




Would it have sounded better if he had sustained notes often?
How about WTC by organs?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 04, 2023, 10:16:07 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 04, 2023, 08:09:06 AMWould it have sounded better if he had sustained notes often?

Probably not - I don't know the recording.

I know two different organ recordings of Bach's keyboard partitas, and I don't think the organ does these works fair justice.

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 04, 2023, 08:09:06 AMHow about WTC by organs?

The WTC, especially the fugues, and Bach's fugues in general are IMO relatively suitable for organ rendering due to the instrument's special possibility of distinct voicing. Six and a half different CD versions of WTC on organ have been released to date, the best of these IMO is Naoya Otsuka on the Waon label playing a chamber organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 05, 2023, 05:40:39 AM
Quote from: premont on May 04, 2023, 10:16:07 AMThe WTC, especially the fugues, and Bach's fugues in general are IMO relatively suitable for organ rendering due to the instrument's special possibility of distinct voicing. Six and a half different CD versions of WTC on organ have been released to date, the best of these IMO is Naoya Otsuka on the Waon label playing a chamber organ.


What's your second favorite? Though the builder of the chamber organ is my FB friend, the sound doesn't appeal to my PERSONAL taste much.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on May 05, 2023, 08:04:50 AM
Quote from: premont on May 04, 2023, 10:16:07 AMProbably not - I don't know the recording.

I know two different organ recordings of Bach's keyboard partitas, and I don't think the organ does these works fair justice.

The WTC, especially the fugues, and Bach's fugues in general are IMO relatively suitable for organ rendering due to the instrument's special possibility of distinct voicing. Six and a half different CD versions of WTC on organ have been released to date, the best of these IMO is Naoya Otsuka on the Waon label playing a chamber organ.

Six and a half?

Whose is it? By half do you mean part on organ and part on other instruments?

I do prefere AoF with an instrumenarium that distinguishes voices, but IIRC I only have 2 on organ--Gould and (I think) Isoir. And I don't particularly like the Gould.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 05, 2023, 10:02:59 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 05, 2023, 05:40:39 AMWhat's your second favorite? Though the builder of the chamber organ is my FB friend, the sound doesn't appeal to my PERSONAL taste much.

I have no particular objection as to the sound of the organ, but my recommendation is first and foremost about the musician.

The five ½ others are

Bernard Lagacé

Louis Thiry

Robert Costin

Daniele Boccaccio

Frédéric Desenclos

and an individual recording of book II by Christoph Bossert

And Robert Levin and Daniel Chorzempa play a few of the prel. & fugues on the organ in their complete WTC recordings.

My own preference of these is Louis Thiry with a human and well sounding version on a suitably small organ, but Frédéric Desenclos may be the most "organistic" of them. His interpretation is a bit "strict" and reminds me sometimes of Helmut Walcha. Lagacé is reliable but lacks inner tension when needed. The same may be said about Bossert. Costin and Boccaccio haven't done much for me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 05, 2023, 10:20:40 AM
Quote from: JBS on May 05, 2023, 08:04:50 AMSix and a half?

Whose is it? By half do you mean part on organ and part on other instruments?

See my answer to Dry Brett Kavanaugh above.

Quote from: JBS on May 05, 2023, 08:04:50 AMI do prefere AoF with an instrumenarium that distinguishes voices, but IIRC I only have 2 on organ--Gould and (I think) Isoir. And I don't particularly like the Gould.

My preference for the AoF is the organ and next to this harpsichord or clavichord. Ensemble versions may be pedagogically instructive and may also be nice to listen to but makes a chamber music work of it which it isn't.

Neither is Gould my cup of tea. There are more than fifty other organ versions - almost all of them preferable to Gould's. I'm rather happy with Isoir's confident and elegant recording. But if you want I shall recommend you alternative versions.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on May 05, 2023, 10:23:32 AM
Quote from: premont on May 05, 2023, 10:20:40 AMSee my answer to Dry Brett Kavanaugh above.

My preference for the AoF is the organ and next to this harpsichord or clavichord. Ensemble versions may be pedagogically instructive and may also be nice to listen to but makes a chamber music work of it which it isn't.

Neither is Gould my cup of tea. There are more than fifty other organ versions - almost all of them preferable to Gould's. I'm rather happy with Isoir's confident and elegant recording. But if you want I shall recommend you alternative versions.

Thank you! I'll keep that list in mind.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Holden on May 05, 2023, 05:09:53 PM
Quote from: premont on May 05, 2023, 10:20:40 AMMy preference for the AoF is the organ and next to this harpsichord or clavichord.


This has prompted me to investigate and am listening to Lionel Rogg at the moment. Already I like the colour that the organ is producing as parts of the piano version can be somewhat meh. Depends who's playing it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 06, 2023, 03:06:15 AM
Quote from: Holden on May 05, 2023, 05:09:53 PMDepends who's playing it.

So is indeed always the case, whatever the instrument.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 08, 2023, 01:09:24 PM
Quote from: premont on May 05, 2023, 10:02:59 AMI have no particular objection as to the sound of the organ, but my recommendation is first and foremost about the musician.

The five ½ others are

Bernard Lagacé

Louis Thiry

Robert Costin

Daniele Boccaccio

Frédéric Desenclos

and an individual recording of book II by Christoph Bossert

And Robert Levin and Daniel Chorzempa play a few of the prel. & fugues on the organ in their complete WTC recordings.

My own preference of these is Louis Thiry with a human and well sounding version on a suitably small organ, but Frédéric Desenclos may be the most "organistic" of them. His interpretation is a bit "strict" and reminds me sometimes of Helmut Walcha. Lagacé is reliable but lacks inner tension when needed. The same may be said about Bossert. Costin and Boccaccio haven't done much for me.


I like the the Frédéric Desenclos.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 08, 2023, 02:05:26 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 08, 2023, 01:09:24 PMI like the the Frédéric Desenclos.

So do I.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 09, 2023, 01:46:26 PM
Quote from: premont on May 08, 2023, 02:05:26 PMSo do I.

I just found that Sachi Ozawa released the Books 1 and 2, also from Waon label.
They're on Spotify etc.

(https://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/83/5/8/286.jpg)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on May 09, 2023, 02:40:58 PM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 09, 2023, 01:46:26 PMI just found that Sachi Ozawa released the Books 1 and 2, also from Waon label.
They're on Spotify etc.

(https://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/83/5/8/286.jpg)

I'm completely inexperienced as to streaming. I see, that Amazon.de offer both books as mp3 download for the modest cost of 10 euro's each, but usually I try to avoid mp3.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 09, 2023, 02:48:24 PM
Quote from: premont on May 09, 2023, 02:40:58 PMI'm completely inexperienced as to streaming. I see, that Amazon.de offer both books as mp3 download for the modest cost of 10 euro's each, but usually I try to avoid mp3.

I don't know her performance. The organ maybe built by the same builder. You may want to check some YT videos of her playing before you purchase the albums.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: vers la flamme on June 02, 2023, 03:23:15 PM
I'm sorry if this question has already been asked a thousand times, but what are some of the good complete sets of Bach's organ music? I listened to bits of the Ton Koopman on Teldec, which sounded very good. I expect the Rübsam/Philips would be very good but as far as I can tell it's completely unavailable. The single disc I have from that cycle contains some beautiful music:

(https://i.postimg.cc/bwWQPZ5c/image.png)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on June 02, 2023, 03:51:09 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 02, 2023, 03:23:15 PMI'm sorry if this question has already been asked a thousand times, but what are some of the good complete sets of Bach's organ music? I listened to bits of the Ton Koopman on Teldec, which sounded very good. I expect the Rübsam/Philips would be very good but as far as I can tell it's completely unavailable. The single disc I have from that cycle contains some beautiful music:

(https://i.postimg.cc/bwWQPZ5c/image.png)

As a person who isn't quite so heavily into the organ works as others:

Alain 1 (Warner)
Isoir (a brand new re-issue has been just released or is on the way)
the Hanssler set that was part of its Complete Bach, and uses several organists.

My real preference is Vernet but that may be unobtainable.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on June 02, 2023, 04:04:48 PM
BTW I just realized that Rubsam CD was the first CD I ever got of Bach's organ works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 03, 2023, 03:20:47 AM
Both the Rübsam (Philips) set and the Vernet set may still be purchased in the shape of a lossless download from Presto Classical.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 03, 2023, 08:58:35 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 02, 2023, 03:23:15 PMI'm sorry if this question has already been asked a thousand times, but what are some of the good complete sets of Bach's organ music? I listened to bits of the Ton Koopman on Teldec, which sounded very good. I expect the Rübsam/Philips would be very good but as far as I can tell it's completely unavailable. The single disc I have from that cycle contains some beautiful music:
 

Maybe the place to start is to say which ones are available in your preferred format at a price you want to pay. That'll narrow it. Here's a list of all complete Bach organ sets

https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html

At the moment, my preferred set is Stockmeier's, and it has been for a while.  It's just so relaxing. But that'll change, and I wouldn't want anyone to think I'm saying that Stockmeier is "the best" or even one of "the best"

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Atriod on June 03, 2023, 09:22:22 AM
Why was this thread locked this morning?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 03, 2023, 09:44:38 AM
And Stockmeier here, 20 CDs for a fiver. Billy Bargain.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/BACH-Organ-Complete-WOLFGANG-STOCKMEIER/dp/B01K8NKCPG/ref=sr_1_1?crid=EN54BZV6LXG1&keywords=stockmeier+bach&qid=1685814175&sprefix=stockmeier+bach%2Caps%2C71&sr=8-1
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on June 03, 2023, 10:12:38 AM
Either someone grabbed the last copy of the Stockmeier set after you posted that, or they won't ship to the USA (it's telling me it's currently unavailable).

Amazon US lists it in the form of two 10 CD Membran boxes
https://www.amazon.com/Das-Orgelwerk-Organ-Works-Vol/dp/B000H9HZGG/

https://www.amazon.com/Das-Orgelwerk-Organ-Works-Vol/dp/B000H9HZGQ/

Roughly $50 for the two combined.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on June 03, 2023, 10:25:19 AM
Good lord!
I just went through Jens' discography and realized I have 10 complete sets, and I wasn't even trying.

Alain 1
Alain 2
Vernet
Foucrolle
Koopman
Hurford
Isoir
Preston
And two multi-organist sets: Hanssler and Berlin Classics Silbermann Organ set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 03, 2023, 03:08:27 PM
Quote from: JBS on June 03, 2023, 10:25:19 AMI just went through Jens' discography and realized I have 10 complete sets, and I wasn't even trying.

Calm down, I have them all (and more to) except the two sets I have opted out (Guillou and Tillmanns).

BTW I think Stockmeier's set is good indeed. As Mandryka writes very relaxing. It's well worth $50.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 03, 2023, 03:30:34 PM
Here from Amazon.de Market Place the original release of all 20 CDs for less than 8 Euros. I don't know if they deliver overseas though:

https://www.amazon.de/Das-Orgelwerk-CD-Set-Wolfgang-Stockmeier/dp/B000025U7V

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on June 03, 2023, 03:32:48 PM
There is a Polish organist, who is not on the list. His name starts with G.
How does Margaret Phillips sound like?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on June 03, 2023, 03:56:27 PM
Quote from: premont on June 03, 2023, 03:08:27 PMCalm down, I have them all (and more to) except the two sets I have opted out (Guillou and Tillmanns).

BTW I think Stockmeier's set is good indeed. As Mandryka writes very relaxing. It's well worth $50.

But that's my point. My musical focus is not on organ works in the way yours is. Yet I've accumulated 10 sets.

I remember you not liking Gillou: but what was your problem with Tillmanns?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: JBS on June 03, 2023, 04:00:00 PM
Quote from: premont on June 03, 2023, 03:30:34 PMHere from Amazon.de Market Place the original release of all 20 CDs for less than 8 Euros. I don't know if they deliver overseas though:

https://www.amazon.de/Das-Orgelwerk-CD-Set-Wolfgang-Stockmeier/dp/B000025U7V



It says US delivery is available from AmazonDE itself, but for about €26 including shipping.

ETA and that is the lowest price. Did someone grab a copy since you posted?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 04, 2023, 02:38:10 AM
Quote from: JBS on June 03, 2023, 03:56:27 PMBut that's my point. My musical focus is not on organ works in the way yours is. Yet I've accumulated 10 sets.

I remember you not liking Gillou: but what was your problem with Tillmanns?

Organ music isn't but one of my foci.

My dislike for Guillou is caused by his extremely eccentric playing.
My dislike for Tillmanns is caused by the fact that I feel that he hasn't immersed himself sufficiently into the spiritual facet of the music. His playing is moderately technically competent and sound often as sight-reading.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 04, 2023, 02:58:18 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on June 03, 2023, 03:32:48 PMThere is a Polish organist, who is not on the list. His name starts with G.

There was also a russian organist whose name I also have forgotten. I think they are difficult to get hold of now. I listened to a number of clips from both and the playing stroke me as representing a demonstrative craftmanship without soul. Add to this some monstrous generic organs.

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on June 03, 2023, 03:32:48 PMHow does Margaret Phillips sound like?

She is competent, informed, and the organs are interesting and well recorded. Not the most inspired playing but much better than Tillmanns'. However not a must have.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 04, 2023, 02:59:18 AM
Quote from: JBS on June 03, 2023, 04:00:00 PMIt says US delivery is available from AmazonDE itself, but for about €26 including shipping.

ETA and that is the lowest price. Did someone grab a copy since you posted?

Not as far as I can see.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on June 04, 2023, 03:14:55 AM
@premont - did you hear Stockmeier's AoF?

(Very much enjoying his Leipzig Chorales this morning.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: premont on June 04, 2023, 03:35:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 04, 2023, 03:14:55 AM@premont - did you hear Stockmeier's AoF?

This one?


Bach:
Die Kunst der Fuge BWV 1080
Wolfgang Stockmeier (Organ)
Psallite
1983
2-LP
 


No, I haven't been able to find it anywhere.