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The Polling Station / Re: Innovative Composer Game (Final Round)
« Last post by Cato on Today at 02:27:01 AM »
Bach (CPE) - 23
Beethoven - 15
Boulez - 22
Cage - 15
Chopin - 10

Debussy - 21
Gesualdo - 20 (+5)
Haydn - 14
Ives - 23
Janáček - 8

Liszt - 26 
Machaut - 8
Mahler - 23
Monteverdi - 42
Mozart - 5

Schoenberg - 22
Scriabin - 25 (+5)
Sibelius - 10
Stravinsky - 23
Wagner - 47
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Composer Discussion / Re: Your top 3 symphonists
« Last post by bwv 1080 on Today at 02:22:41 AM »
Mahler
Henze
Schnittke
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GMG News / Re: OK, we are back
« Last post by Florestan on Today at 02:18:03 AM »
"Server not found" here, too, quite frequently. Repeatedly clicking "Try again" might or might not help.
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The Polling Station / Re: Innovative Composer Game (Final Round)
« Last post by Florestan on Today at 02:08:57 AM »
Bach (CPE) - 23 (+5)
Beethoven - 15
Boulez - 22
Cage - 15 (+2)
Chopin - 10

Debussy - 21
Gesualdo - 15
Haydn - 14
Ives - 23
Janáček - 8

Liszt - 26 (+5)
Machaut - 8
Mahler - 23
Monteverdi - 42
Mozart - 5

Schoenberg - 22
Scriabin - 20
Sibelius - 10
Stravinsky - 23
Wagner - 47
5

Benjamin Appl
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The Polling Station / Re: The String Quartet Game (Round Two)
« Last post by Florestan on Today at 01:56:48 AM »
Thanks, Sammy, indeed I hadn't noticed the last correct one on this page.
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The Polling Station / Re: The String Quartet Game (Round Two)
« Last post by Sergeant Rock on Today at 01:56:14 AM »
Arensky - String Quartet no. 2 in A minor, op. 35 - 18
Bax - String Quartet no. 1 in G major - 10
Beethoven - String Quartet no. 16 in F major, op. 135 - 16 (+5)
Brahms - String Quartet no. 3 in B flat major, op. 67 - 2
Crumb - Black Angels - 12
Dvořák - String Quartet no. 13 in G major, op. 106 - 21
Ferneyhough - String Quartet no. 6 - 10
Haydn - String Quartet in D major, op. 20/4 - 0
Haydn - String Quartet in G major, op. 77/1 "Lobkowitz" - 29 (+5)
Janácek - String Quartet no. 2 "Intimate letters" - 5

Ligeti - String Quartet no. 2 - 13
Mozart - Adagio and Fugue in C minor, K 546 - 2
Myaskovsky - String Quartet no. 4 in F minor, op. 33/4 - 6
Post (David) - String Quartet no. 2 - 0
Rubbra - String Quartet no. 2 in E flat major, op. 73 - 1
Schubert - String Quartet no. 12 in C minor, D 703 "Quartettsatz" - 23
Shostakovich - String Quartet no. 12 in D flat major, op. 133 - 7
Takemitsu - Landscape for String Quartet - 7
Toldrà - Vistes al mar - 0
Weinberg - String Quartet no. 11, op. 89 - 8
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I think this an even wilder exaggeration than that Bernstein "rediscovered" or established Mahler. Sibelius was very popular in some parts of the world before Karajan, there were important conductors of Sibelius before and at the same time with Karajan (e.g. Ormandy, Bernstein).

Sibelius was popular -- even (and especially) in Germany -- until about the 40s. Then he absolutely plummeted in continental popularity. I think aukhawk implied, meant, or might have meant "in continental Europe". At least then the statement makes sense and what you say below, if anything, reinforces it.

Quote
Furthermore, neither Karajan nor Maazel (who recorded a cycle in Vienna in the 1960s) managed to establish Sibelius in Germany and Austria as firmly as he is in the anglophere and Scandinavia.
I might be wrong, but there is still no complete Sibelius symphony cycle with the Berlin Phil, none after Maazel's with the Vienna from >50 years ago, even the single recordings with these top orchestras are few and far between, and as far as I see the only real cycle with a German orchestra is Sanderling's from the 1970s.
So Sibelius did not need Karajan's help outside of Germany/Austria and Karajan did not help a lot within German speaking musical culture...

Absolutely right: Despite the efforts of Karajan and Maazel (a miraculous cycle coming from a Sibelian wasteland and an orchestra that neither knew nor cared about Sibelius), continental Europe STILL remains a sorry place for Sibelius performances and recordings.

That said, there is a Berlin cycle of the Sibelius Symphonies (see: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html), with Rattle, on the orchestra's label. And it's one of the worst. Marvelously played and frightfully boring and completely missing the point -- much more so than Rattle's earlier cycle. (Though I'm not that keen on that on, either.)

I don't think the Vienna Phil has touched Sibelius since then. :-)

That said, I DO think Karajan's advocacy helped at least a LITTLE.

Re: Karajan / M6: So far, I'm not convinced that in the listed 'deviations' from the indications in the score (some of which are not actual deviations at all; esp. in the dynamic markings Mahler's indications are not absolute (i.e. p < mp < f) but relative. I.e. strings f = trumpets mp = oboes mf etc.)

I'd rather like to hear about how he, in doing whatever he does, misses the spirit of the work... which seems to be the underlying issue. (Since I am sure we could come up with a laundry list of Barbirolli and how he's not sticking to the letter of the score by those standards, either.)

Finally, here's my Karajan Proposition.

I came of record-collecting age at what might be considered the height of Karajan-bashing. I bought much of it myself. (The anti-hype, not the recordings, of course.) It was the thing that the connoisseur was into: Karajan-dumping. It was a way to distinguish oneself from the unthinking crowd. Much like Marriner-dismissing.

My cure was two-pronged. Discovering recordings that were, against my expectations, superb... top-of-the-line... much better than those of much more popular (at the time) conductors. Debussy. Beethoven. (Even the 70s cycle.) Mendelssohn!!! Bruckner. And of course the early atonal stuff. Sibelius we have mentioned. Some of this led me to give him the benefit of the doubt, even in repertoire where his reputation had become even more sketchy. (Though, no, I cannot listen to his Brandenburgs (the ones on video; 60s, I think?); such terrible harpsichord playing I have never heard!

More importantly, I asked customers at Tower who were similarly afflicted with Anti-Karajanitis the following question:

If you were allowed to have only recordings of one conductor, whom would you reasonably opt for? Which I turn into this hypothesis:

If you were only allowed recordings by one conductor, the logical choice would be Karajan!

Breadth of repertoire, opera, symphonic... from baroque to 20th century... Karajan not only offers the greatest quantity (ahead of Leonard Bernstein and Neeme Jaervi), he also offers the greatest average quality.

Think of any other conductor you like more than Karajan... and then think having only THEIR recordings. The shortfall would be siginificant. Admittedly, my problem here would be Bach... so I might actually opt out of HvK; say goodbye to much of the romantic repertoire altogether, and go with Gardiner (the most versaitle among acceptable Bach conductors who has all the cantatas)... but that's a choice that can live without Verdi, without Wagner, without Honegger, without Prokofiev, without Sibelius (ouch!), without Mendelsson (if you beg to differ on this point: Listen to those dreadful LSO recordings with JEG; they might as well not exist)...
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General Classical Music Discussion / Re: Karajan was a silly musician
« Last post by jessop on Today at 01:41:45 AM »
Ah, this is where it's happening. I thought that had been a joke and that the discussion would take place in the Mahler shed. Well, fair enough... I'll read through it, to catch up.

I intended it as a joke..........but hey! Look where we are now! ;D
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Ah, this is where it's happening. I thought that had been a joke and that the discussion would take place in the Mahler shed. Well, fair enough... I'll read through it, to catch up.
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